Jocko Podcast 85 w/ Echo Charles - Rationalizing Evil Deeds. "Ordinary Men"

2017-07-26T21:54:52Z

Join the conversation on Twitter: @jockowillink @echocharles 0:00:00 - Opening 0:06:39 - Ordinary Men", Christopher R. Browning 0:24:52 - Executioners come in many forms. 0:34:55 - Cowards and Rationalization. 0:53:00 - The burden of choice. 1:22:34 - Why/How can men behave this way? 1:54:12 - Take-Aways 2:18:51 - Support, Cool Onnit, JockoStore stuff, with Jocko White Tea and Psychological Warfare (on iTunes). Extreme Ownership (book), The Discipline Equals Freedom Field Manual. Origin Jiu Jitsu Immersion Camp.  Origin Brand. 2:41:25 - Closing Gratitude.

AI summary of episode

Yeah, and people know People that know no people that listen Right if they listen they know same thing with this shirt if they don't listen they're not gonna know if they listen You're gonna get cred We're doing all this stuff as a group So let's jokalo Our current leader I think this is a group without a leader until someone tells them to stop then we're all stopping anyway Also good way to support And this is just to support yourself and support the group really because you know, okay, so this book these books all these books We read these books sure we're just in jok go over it and it's dope, but you know You want to get the book if you want to get the book and we know I'm reading less than 10% of the books. That's good But get it for your team because I'll make your life easier if you want to do that we also have echelon front consulting me Lavebabbin jpe to know Dave Burke Get your team aligned So your leadership can crush your enemies and by the way don't try and book us through a speakers agent if you know what that is if you know what that is Don't do it Don't Look online and find our literary agent and try and book don't do that We have a company it's called echelon front book through the company info and echelon front dot com email that That's how you get us to come and work with your Company the master We just got done with one next one September 14th and 15th in San Diego. You know, that kind of what so is that kind of move is one where you got to like go between the guys like lift up into, you know, heal hook or whatever like last you choose. Yeah, especially if just like I said, there wasn't like some enemy kind of feeling towards you like, you know, it's not like, oh, we're defending ourselves against this enemy. It is going to sell out this factual It is going to sell out it is factual it is gonna sell out Because all three of the first ones have sold out this one's gonna sell out to register go to extreme ownership dot com if you want to come to it If you don't want to come stay at home, that's fine, too Whatever Hey, also if you train jiu jitsu or if you don't train and you want to start training Speaking of origin Main we're doing the origin immersion jiu jitsu camp up in main echo and I are going to be there training and cruising super hard I'm fairly certain it's for brain health, you know, and I think the new mood It like mood part of it is more of like a kind of a happenstance kind of cool thing like But like, you know, you do something like, you know, you're example or you ever see, you know, you see this all the time where you say something, you're on stage, you say something kind of cool. I got the master had this t-shirt on yeah, and the most bad and at first I was like, you know I was like oh man, so I'm gonna see victory guy and then I was oh even cooler And I'd be kind of a few kind of psychos saying refreshing to know that they didn't get that much punishment aside from some name calling, you know, because you don't think over that like that. So if some guy was like, hey, you know, I'm Bill, I'm running the experiment, hey, shock this guy, if the guy was no authority, they got no, they got no, none, no, it's that shows you. It freaks people out when you say, you know, I'll go and work with a company and I'll be saying like, no, I want your people. I think when you think of it like all this in it, you know, they got to say, you're saying, yeah, people. So going back to the book uniformly, Hoffman's men offered a different perspective, meaning it's not just like, you know, he's sick to stomach and blah blah blah. Because everyone's like, hey, yeah, you know, like the true you want. I could totally, but Jeff was like, oh, kind of like dang, because I'm bigger guy too, you know. So that, yeah, especially like I said, if they're scared of the authority, it's like, okay, the tipping point is going to be more for sure. I don't know what I'm saying is though is somebody that somebody that like Doesn't want to just be forthcoming like for instance A lot of the shirts that we have that have layers to them. And he does recognize that just by wearing his rank, when he says something, people kind of like going to do it, they got, well, they want to do it. Yeah, in the police, but it's not necessarily, you know, a person being a truck driver is like, you know, this exclusionary occupation. Like if I gave you time to say, if I was like, hey, echo, we got to go do this thing right now. You know, the kind where you're like, okay, I'm going to link up with whoever to go train or to go work out of whatever. You know, like, you know, when you come up through the jujitsu ranks, you just, you just find a certain move or handful of moves and you just, those moves, you get better out of quicker than other. Can you teach me that amount on escape that you got Like whatever you know those things we're gonna do we're gonna do that Or as the leadership team, or even as the guys that are on the front of the point man, the point man selecting his own, you know, going down to the front line troops, the point man is selecting the route. Go to onit.com slash jockel 10% off and support the podcast You know we're on this thing together kind of thing, you know Other stuff on on it. You don't know exactly what like know the darkest right? They're gonna get the whole thing and they're gonna be like holy cut chocolate It's like if you listen to a band But this is the book this is the book inside the cover So a couple things does this have a flashy cover that's gonna attract you know people to buy it. If I do, if I'm doing something that they showed me, I'll like, I'll like call him out like a little kid. But you get something where there's going to be, there might be some resistance, some risk, you know, of pain or, you know, whatever kind of punishment.

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Episode transcript

[00:00:00] This is Jockel Podcast number 85.
[00:00:04] With echo Charles and me, Jockel Willink.
[00:00:07] Good evening, echo.
[00:00:09] Good evening.
[00:00:13] I was given a very old man who could not or would not keep up with his countrymen
[00:00:20] because he repeatedly fell and then simply lay there.
[00:00:25] I regularly had to lift him up and drag him forward.
[00:00:30] Thus I only reached the execution site when my comrades had already shot their Jews.
[00:00:38] At the site of his countrymen who had been shot, my Jew threw himself on the ground and remained
[00:00:43] lying there.
[00:00:45] I then cocked my carbine and shot him through the back of the head.
[00:00:51] As I was already very upset from the cruel treatment of the Jews during the clearing of
[00:00:56] the town and was completely in turmoil, I shot too high.
[00:01:03] The entire back of the skull of my Jew was torn off and the brain exposed.
[00:01:11] Parts of the skull flew into sergeant Steinmeetz's face.
[00:01:18] This was grounds for me after returning to the truck to go to the first sergeant and ask
[00:01:24] for my release.
[00:01:27] I had become so sick that I simply couldn't anymore.
[00:01:33] I was then relieved by the first sergeant.
[00:01:45] Systematic murder.
[00:01:52] That's what we're talking about.
[00:01:54] This is the Nazi's final solution which was not always carried out in the relatively
[00:02:05] detached method often thought of when we think of the Holocaust.
[00:02:12] Because when we think of the Holocaust, a lot of times we think of this big mechanism.
[00:02:17] We think of trains.
[00:02:19] We think of gas chambers.
[00:02:21] We think of process.
[00:02:23] We think of a massive bureaucratic machine that is doing the killing.
[00:02:33] And maybe that in some way is easier for us to understand.
[00:02:38] And that's why we focus on that piece.
[00:02:44] It's easier for us to accept that.
[00:02:45] But it wasn't all like that.
[00:02:51] Many lives were taken.
[00:02:54] Many murders committed by hand.
[00:03:01] That close range point blank.
[00:03:11] So what kind of monsters committed those atrocities, those personal atrocities, up close
[00:03:28] and personal murders that covered the murderers in the blood of their victims?
[00:03:41] What?
[00:03:42] What kind of men were those?
[00:03:48] And how did they end up there?
[00:03:55] And what can we do to prevent it from occurring again?
[00:04:12] Now to answer or at least try and come to some understanding, we're going to explore
[00:04:20] a book that is called Ordinary Men.
[00:04:25] Reserve police battalion 101 and the final solution in Poland written by Christopher
[00:04:34] R. Browning.
[00:04:36] And that first excerpt that I read is from that book.
[00:04:42] And it's from a soldier in the police battalion named August Zorn.
[00:04:49] That's actually a pseudonym the name for changed for some of the Nazis in the book.
[00:04:57] But the book is incredibly detailed in what happened and where these men were from and
[00:05:09] what unfolded.
[00:05:13] And obviously this is going to be a graphic episode.
[00:05:21] And I actually wish I didn't have to talk about this.
[00:05:28] I really do.
[00:05:29] I wish I could talk about nicer things.
[00:05:35] I wish I could talk about pleasant things and we could just forget about all this horror.
[00:05:41] But I, there's the rub because even though it would be easier and more pleasant to talk
[00:05:55] about something nice, the problem is that if we forget about these things, then we forget
[00:06:00] about these things.
[00:06:06] And if we forget, we don't learn.
[00:06:11] If we don't learn about what humans can do and why they do what they do, then we can repeat
[00:06:21] our mistakes and that is awful.
[00:06:28] So we go because we have to go.
[00:06:37] We go back to the book.
[00:06:48] Just as the sky was beginning to lighten, the convoy halted outside Yosafov.
[00:06:57] It was a typical Polish village of modest white houses with that straw roofs.
[00:07:04] Among it's inhabitants were 1800 Jews.
[00:07:09] The village was totally quiet.
[00:07:11] The men of reserve police battalion 101 climbed down from their trucks and assembled in
[00:07:16] a half circle around their commander, Major Vill Helm Trapp.
[00:07:21] A 53-year-old career policeman affectionately known by his men as Papa Trapp.
[00:07:29] The time had come for Trapp to address the men and inform them of the assignment the battalion
[00:07:33] had received.
[00:07:36] Pale and nervous with choking voice and tears in his eyes.
[00:07:43] Trapp visibly fought to control himself as he spoke.
[00:07:49] The battalion, he said, plaintively, had to perform a frightfully unpleasant task.
[00:07:56] This assignment was not to his liking.
[00:07:58] Indeed it was highly regrettable, but the orders came from the highest authorities.
[00:08:04] If it would make the task any easier, the men should remember that in Germany, the bombs
[00:08:09] were falling on women and children.
[00:08:13] Then he turned to the matter at hand.
[00:08:15] The Jews had instigated the American boycott that had damaged Germany.
[00:08:20] One policeman remembered Trapp saying.
[00:08:24] There were Jews in the village of Yosafov who were involved with the partisans he explained
[00:08:31] according to two others.
[00:08:33] The battalion had now been ordered to round up these Jews.
[00:08:38] The male Jews of working age were to be separated and taken to a work camp, the remaining
[00:08:43] Jews.
[00:08:45] The women, children, and elderly were to be shot on the spot by the battalion.
[00:08:54] Having explained what awaited his men, Trapp made them an extraordinary offer.
[00:09:00] If any of the older men among them did not feel up to the task that lay before them, he could
[00:09:06] step out.
[00:09:14] Trapp paused.
[00:09:17] And after some moments, one man from third company, Otto Julius Schimcki, stepped forward.
[00:09:27] Captain Hoffman, who had arrived in Yosafov directly from Zakarov with third platoon
[00:09:33] of third company, and had not been part of the officer's meetings that day before was furious
[00:09:39] that one of his men had been the first to break ranks.
[00:09:44] And began to berate Schimcki.
[00:09:48] But Trapp caught him off.
[00:09:50] After he had taken Schimcki under his protection, some 10 or 12 other men stepped forward
[00:09:55] as well.
[00:09:57] They turned in their rifles and were told to await a further assignment from the major.
[00:10:06] So we'll go into this, but you've got a battalion.
[00:10:13] We companies, there's probably 500 men.
[00:10:18] And we have they get this savage order that they're going to go and shoot.
[00:10:26] The women, children, and elderly on the spot in this village with pretty white houses.
[00:10:33] And the commander, this guy Trapp, who obviously isn't comfortable with it, he's got tears
[00:10:39] in his eyes when he's giving this order.
[00:10:42] He says, hey, if anybody doesn't want to participate, you can step forward now.
[00:10:45] And like 10 or 12 people out of 500 step forward.
[00:10:50] The rest of them hold the line in this case.
[00:10:55] Going back to the book, Trapp then summoned the company commanders and gave them the respective
[00:10:59] assignments.
[00:11:00] The orders were relayed by the platoon commanders.
[00:11:05] Tupel tunes of third company were to surround the village.
[00:11:08] The men were explicitly ordered to shoot anyone trying to escape.
[00:11:12] The remaining men were to round up the Jews and take them to the marketplace.
[00:11:16] Those two sick are frail to walk to the marketplace as well as infants.
[00:11:21] And anyone offering resistance or attempting to hide were to be shot on the spot.
[00:11:28] Thereafter, a few men of the first company were escorted.
[00:11:31] Were to escort the work Jews who had been selected at the marketplace while the rest of
[00:11:37] the first company was to proceed to the forest to form firing squads.
[00:11:43] The Jews were to be loaded onto battalion trucks by second company and third platoon of
[00:11:47] third company and shuddled from the marketplace to the forest.
[00:11:52] And that's for executions.
[00:11:56] After making the assignments, Trapp spent most of the day in town, either in a school
[00:12:02] room, converted into his headquarters at the homes of the Polish mayor.
[00:12:06] At the local priest at the marketplace or on the road to the forest.
[00:12:12] But he did not go to the forest itself or witnessed the executions.
[00:12:17] His absence there was conspicuous as one policeman bitterly commented, Major Trapp was never there.
[00:12:25] Instead he remained in Yosofof because he allegedly could not bear the sight.
[00:12:32] He men were upset about that and said we couldn't bear it either.
[00:12:39] Indeed Trapp's distress was a secret to no one.
[00:12:43] At the marketplace one policeman remembered hearing Trapp say, oh God, why did I have to
[00:12:48] be given these orders as he put his hand on his heart?
[00:12:53] Another policeman witnessed him at the schoolhouse.
[00:12:55] Today I can see exactly before my eyes, Major Trapp and the room pacing back and forth
[00:13:00] with his hands behind his back. He made a downcast impression and spoke to me.
[00:13:04] He said something like, man, such jobs don't suit me.
[00:13:09] But orders are orders.
[00:13:12] Another man remembered vividly how Trapp finally alone in our room sat on a stool and
[00:13:18] wept bitterly.
[00:13:20] The tears really flowed.
[00:13:22] Can you hear that? That idea that orders are orders.
[00:13:31] Doesn't stand. Doesn't work.
[00:13:36] Back to the book as the roundup, neared completion.
[00:13:39] The men of first company were withdrawn from the search and given a quick lesson in the
[00:13:43] gruesome task that awaited them.
[00:13:46] They were instructed by the battalion doctor and the company's first sergeant.
[00:13:51] And this is a quote from one of the men.
[00:13:53] I believe that at this point all the officers of the battalion were present, especially
[00:13:57] our battalion physician, Dr. Schoenfelder.
[00:14:02] He now had to explain to us precisely how we had to shoot in order to induce the immediate
[00:14:06] death of the victim.
[00:14:09] I remember exactly that for this demonstration, he drew or outlined the contour of a human
[00:14:14] body, at least from the shoulders upward, and then indicated precisely the point on which
[00:14:19] the fixed bayonet was to be placed as an aiming guide.
[00:14:26] So we have the battalion doctor who's instructing some of the men and you're going to see
[00:14:33] that it wasn't all of them to take the bayonet, which is on their rifle, put it on the back
[00:14:39] of the neck as an aiming guide to know where exactly where to shoot.
[00:14:51] Back to the book.
[00:14:52] First sergeant camera had taken the initial contingent of shooters in first company to
[00:14:56] affordest several kilometers from Yosafov.
[00:15:01] The truck's halted on a dirt road that ran along the edge at a point where a pathway
[00:15:06] led into the woods.
[00:15:08] The men climbed down from their trucks and waited.
[00:15:13] When the first truck load of 35 to 40 Jews arrived and equal number of policemen came
[00:15:18] forward and faced a face were paired off with their victims.
[00:15:24] Led by camera, the policemen and Jews marched down the forest path.
[00:15:30] They turned off into the woods at a point indicated by Captain Wolff, who busied himself
[00:15:36] throughout the day selecting the execution sites.
[00:15:41] Camera then ordered the Jews to lie down in a row.
[00:15:45] The policemen stepped up behind them, placed their bayonets on the backbone above the shoulder
[00:15:50] blade as instructed earlier and on cameras command fired in unison.
[00:16:01] In the meantime, more policemen of first company had arrived at the edge of the forest
[00:16:05] to fill out a second firing squad.
[00:16:07] As the first firing squad marched out of the woods to the unloading point, the second
[00:16:11] group took their victims along the same path into the woods.
[00:16:16] Wolff chose a site of fire on so the next batch of victims would not see the corpses
[00:16:22] from the earlier execution.
[00:16:25] These Jews were again forced to lie face down in a row and the shooting procedure was
[00:16:30] repeated.
[00:16:34] After the pendulum traffic of the two firing squad in and out of the woods continued
[00:16:40] throughout the day.
[00:16:43] Except for a midday break, the shooting proceeded without interruption until nightfall.
[00:16:50] At some point in the afternoon, someone organized a supply of alcohol for the shooters.
[00:16:57] By the end of the day, of nearly continuous shooting, the medic completely lost track
[00:17:02] of how many Jews they had each killed.
[00:17:05] In the words of one policeman, it was, in any case, a great number.
[00:17:17] So clearly this is not what we think of when we think of the Holocaust.
[00:17:23] Good men being paired off with their victims to take out the woods and shot in the back
[00:17:27] of the head and going through this procedure the entire day.
[00:17:41] Back to the book, in contrast to first company, the men of second company received no instruction
[00:17:46] on how to carry out the shooting.
[00:17:49] Initially, bay nets were not fixed as an aiming guide and as herger noted, there was a considerable
[00:17:55] number of missed shots that led to the unnecessary wounding of the victims.
[00:18:01] One of the policemen in herger's unit likewise noted the difficulty the men had in aiming
[00:18:05] properly.
[00:18:06] At first, we shot freehand when one aimed to high the entire skull exploded as a consequence
[00:18:13] brains and bones flew everywhere.
[00:18:16] Thus we were instructed to place the bay net point on the neck.
[00:18:24] According to herger, however, using fixed bay net as an aiming guide was no solution.
[00:18:30] Through the point blank shot, though the point blank shot that was thus required, the bullet
[00:18:35] struck the head of the victim at such a trajectory that often the entire skull or at least
[00:18:40] the entire rear skull cap was torn off and blood, bone splinters and brains sprayed everywhere
[00:18:46] and besmirched the shooters.
[00:18:53] The shooter was so emphatic that no one in 1st platoon was given the option of withdrawing
[00:18:57] beforehand.
[00:18:59] But once the executions began and men approached either hammer sheer because they could
[00:19:04] not shoot women and children, they were given other duties.
[00:19:09] This was confirmed by one of his men.
[00:19:12] During the execution, words spread that anyone could not take it any longer could report.
[00:19:18] He then went on to note, I myself took part in some 10 shootings.
[00:19:23] In which I had to shoot men and women.
[00:19:27] I simply could not shoot at people anymore, which became apparent to my sergeant, herger,
[00:19:33] because at the end I repeatedly shot past.
[00:19:37] For this reason he relieved me.
[00:19:41] Other comrades were also relieved sooner or later because they simply could no longer
[00:19:47] continue.
[00:19:54] So obviously there's mixed emotions about this whole thing from the top of the chain of
[00:20:04] command right down to the front line shooters that are only able to do this so many times,
[00:20:09] some of them out of it initially.
[00:20:14] Let's remember that it's still taking place and no one's stopping it.
[00:20:18] Someone's saying some people are excusing themselves from it.
[00:20:23] But there's no one saying, hey, what the hell are we doing right now?
[00:20:31] Back to the book, some of the men who hurried at their task shot far more Jews than others
[00:20:35] who delayed as much as they could.
[00:20:39] And two rounds, one policeman simply slipped off and stayed among the trucks at the edge of
[00:20:44] the forest.
[00:20:45] Another managed to avoid taking his turn with the shooters altogether.
[00:20:49] And here's a quote from him.
[00:20:50] It was, in no way, the case that those who did not want to or could not carry out the shooting
[00:20:55] of human beings with their own hands could not keep themselves out of the task.
[00:21:00] No strict control was being carried out here.
[00:21:03] I therefore remained by the arriving trucks and kept myself busy at the arrival point.
[00:21:08] But in any case, I gave my activity such an appearance.
[00:21:12] They could not be avoided that one or another of my comrades noticed that I was not going
[00:21:17] to the executions to fire away at the victims.
[00:21:22] They shoured me with remarks such as shithead and weakling to express their disgust.
[00:21:29] But I suffered no consequences for my actions.
[00:21:34] I must mention here that I was not the only one who kept themselves out of participating
[00:21:39] in the executions.
[00:21:43] So guys, like I said, have figured out that they can not participate if they don't want
[00:21:48] to.
[00:21:51] And they're getting called cowards and weaklings by the guys that are actually cowards
[00:21:57] and weaklings that are going out and executing people back to the book as with first company
[00:22:07] alcohol is made available to the policeman under Drucker and Steinmeetz, who stayed in
[00:22:13] the forest and continued shooting.
[00:22:17] As darkness approached at the end of a long summer day and the murderous task was still
[00:22:21] not finished, the shooting became even less organized and more hectic.
[00:22:26] The forest was so full of dead bodies that it was difficult to find places to make the
[00:22:31] Jews lie down.
[00:22:42] So they complete this massacre and they head back to their barracks and here we go back
[00:22:54] to the book when the men arrived back at the barracks.
[00:22:57] They were depressed, angered, inbittered and shaken.
[00:23:01] They ate little but drink heavily.
[00:23:05] Generous quantities of alcohol were provided and many of the policemen got quite drunk.
[00:23:11] Major trap made the rounds trying to console and reassure them and again placing the responsibility
[00:23:17] on higher authorities.
[00:23:22] You're not allowed to do that.
[00:23:29] But neither the drink nor traps consolation could wash away the sense of shame and horror
[00:23:35] that pervaded the barracks.
[00:23:41] So that was the first police action that they did.
[00:23:47] This took place in Poland.
[00:23:53] And to give you what they did.
[00:23:58] You hear some people that had a hard time with it.
[00:24:01] But still like I said, that was a small percentage of 10% maybe 15% of people that said
[00:24:06] no, I'm not going to do it.
[00:24:07] That hit or made themselves busy with other things.
[00:24:11] Most of the guys just went ahead and did what they were told to do.
[00:24:16] You think you're so okay, well who were these guys?
[00:24:19] Were they hardened combat veterans from the front line?
[00:24:24] Were they young sort of brainwashed Nazi youth that were that's what they believed in?
[00:24:33] And they just they their mind just saw that as the reality that they had to go through
[00:24:38] with.
[00:24:39] And this is the strange thing about this book is that that's not what it is.
[00:24:45] It's not who these guys were and now I'll go to the book to talk about who they actually
[00:24:49] were.
[00:24:51] For the most part, reserve but reserve police battalion 101 was now composed of men without
[00:24:57] any experience of German occupation methods in Eastern Europe.
[00:25:00] All for that matter with the exception of the very oldest who were World War I veterans
[00:25:05] any kind of military service.
[00:25:07] Most of these guys aren't even from the military.
[00:25:10] Battalion consisted of 11 officers, five administrative officials in charge of financial
[00:25:15] matters relating to playing, provisioning, lodging, etc.
[00:25:19] and 486 non-commissioned officers in men.
[00:25:23] The battalion was divided into three companies, each of them, approximately 140 men,
[00:25:27] when it full strength, two companies were commanded by police captains and the third by
[00:25:31] senior reserve lieutenant in the battalion.
[00:25:33] Each company was divided into three platoons, two them commanded by reserve lieutenants,
[00:25:38] and the third by a platoon senior sergeant.
[00:25:40] So this is kind of a normal military makeup.
[00:25:45] The battalion was commanded by 53-year-old Major Wilhelm Trap, World War I veteran and recipient
[00:25:52] of the Iron Cross First Class.
[00:25:56] Now we know World War I obviously was a brutal war and he's a survivor of that, awarded
[00:26:02] the Iron Cross First Class fought for Germany and lost.
[00:26:08] What he'd do after the war, back to the book after the war he became a career policeman
[00:26:12] and rose through the ranks.
[00:26:14] He'd recently been promoted from captain of second company and this was his first battalion
[00:26:19] command.
[00:26:21] Though Trap had joined the Nazi Party in December of 1932 and thus technically qualified
[00:26:27] as an old party fighter or alter-comfer, he had never been taken into the SS or even given
[00:26:35] an equivalent SS rank.
[00:26:38] And despite of the fact that himler and hijrick consciously tried to merge and intertwine
[00:26:43] to state and party components of their SS police empire, Trap was clearly not considered
[00:26:49] SS material.
[00:26:51] So, and you're going to see this, these guys, I mean there's a war going on.
[00:26:58] So why are these guys in a police battalion as opposed to being on the front lines fighting
[00:27:02] the war?
[00:27:03] The reason is because they're not quite the right material to go out and fight.
[00:27:08] And by the way, we're going to get to a point soon in the war where there's some 14-year-old
[00:27:12] Hitler youth going out to fight.
[00:27:14] But these guys aren't being selected.
[00:27:19] Back to the book, he was soon to come into conflict with his two captains both young SS men
[00:27:25] who even in their testimony more than 20 years later made no attempt to conceal their
[00:27:28] contempt for their commander as weak, unmilitary, and unduly interfering in the duties
[00:27:34] of his officers.
[00:27:36] So he's got a couple police captains that were a little bit more hardcore.
[00:27:40] Let me tell you about them.
[00:27:42] Wolfgang Hoffman, he was born in 1914, 16 years old, he was in Hitler youth in 1932 at 18.
[00:27:56] He was in the SS, graduated from gymnasium, which is a college preparatory high school in
[00:28:02] 34, during the police force in 1936 entered the Nazi party in 1937.
[00:28:09] Same year he completed police training, it was commissioned as a lieutenant, and now he's
[00:28:13] in the reserves in 1942 reserve police battalion 101.
[00:28:18] So he'd come up through the ranks as a Nazi.
[00:28:24] But still, even him, I mean his formative years is born in 1914.
[00:28:29] So it's not like it's all he knew.
[00:28:33] He went from 1914 to what 1933, 1930, so he was 16 years old, he had been formed, lived as
[00:28:41] a normal German before the Nazi party was around.
[00:28:44] We're not talking a brainwashed, complete Nazi youth.
[00:28:47] Same thing with the other guy born in 1913, this is Julius Wolhoff.
[00:28:54] So graduated from gymnasium, joined the Nazi party in 1933, 1936 became SS.
[00:29:02] So these guys are more engaged in the whole Nazi party and obviously towing the line along
[00:29:15] that.
[00:29:17] So that's the two police captains that are in charge of a couple of the companies inside
[00:29:22] the battalion.
[00:29:23] Now let's talk a little bit about the men, the men aged generally from 33 to 48 years old.
[00:29:31] Five were party members, none of them belonged to the SS, of the back of the book of the 32
[00:29:36] non-commissioned officers on whom we have information 22 were party members in seven were
[00:29:40] in the SS.
[00:29:41] They ranged in age from 27 to 40 years old, their average age was 33 and a half.
[00:29:48] They were not reserved, but rather pre-war recruits to the police.
[00:29:53] Of the rank and file, so now we're just talking about the troops, the 400 plus troops.
[00:29:57] Of the rank and file, the vast majority were from the Hamburg area, 63% were working class
[00:30:02] background, but fewer skilled laborers.
[00:30:05] The majority of them held typical Hamburg, working class jobs, dock workers and truck drivers,
[00:30:10] were most numerous, but there are also many warehouse and construction workers, machine
[00:30:14] operators, seamen and waiters, about 35% were lower middle class virtually all of them white
[00:30:20] collar workers.
[00:30:22] Three quarters of them were in sales of some sort.
[00:30:25] The other one quarter formed various office jobs in both government and private sector,
[00:30:30] the number of independent artisans and small businesses, businessmen were very small,
[00:30:36] only a handful, 2% were middle class professionals and very modest ones at that, such
[00:30:42] as drugists and teachers, the average age of the men was 39.
[00:30:50] Over half were between 37 and 42.
[00:30:52] A group considered two-old for the army, but most heavily conscripted for reserve police
[00:30:57] duty after September 1939.
[00:30:59] So the men are there, they're 30, 40 years old, 35, 40 years old.
[00:31:07] These guys are fully developed, right?
[00:31:08] They're not impressionable.
[00:31:10] Yeah, they're not impressionable guys that are just raised inside the Nazi culture,
[00:31:15] because I mean, let's face it.
[00:31:16] If you're raised in any cultish religion scenario, there's a really good chance that that's
[00:31:23] what you're going to believe in and you don't understand any other way of thinking.
[00:31:28] So you can, I don't know if you can be a good excuse, but it's understandable how
[00:31:34] you end up that way.
[00:31:38] Back to the book, The Men of Reserve Police Battalion, where from the lower orders of
[00:31:42] German society, they'd experienced neither social nor geographic mobility, by virtue of their
[00:31:47] age.
[00:31:48] And here's what we're just talking about.
[00:31:49] By virtue of their age, of course, all went through their formative period in the pre-Nazi
[00:31:54] area.
[00:31:56] These were men who had known political standards and moral norms other than those of the
[00:32:00] Nazis.
[00:32:01] Most came from Hamburg, by reputation one of the least not-to-fied cities in Germany.
[00:32:06] And the majority came from a social class that had been anti-Nazi in its political culture.
[00:32:13] These men would not seem to have been a very promising group from which to recruit mass
[00:32:18] murderers on behalf of Nazi vision of a racial utopia, free of Jews.
[00:32:26] And I think the title of this book is Ordinary Men.
[00:32:32] And that's why, because that's what we're talking about here, Ordinary Men.
[00:32:37] I mean, that's about a clear cross-section of society that you could come up with.
[00:32:43] I mean, you come up with the same cross-section of society in America.
[00:32:46] Much of guys are working as construction workers, waiters, truck drivers, dock workers.
[00:32:50] I mean, that's what that's what people do.
[00:32:53] Oh, what age are they?
[00:32:55] They're 35, 40 years old.
[00:32:56] Okay.
[00:32:57] Is that the group that you think is going to be all you're going to be able to take out and
[00:33:00] get them to murder thousands and thousands of people face to face?
[00:33:04] Okay.
[00:33:05] Now, there's a section here that the reflections on the massacre itself.
[00:33:15] And it's talking about this first, like I said, this first thing that took place in
[00:33:22] your self-fulf, it was that they're first big action as a group.
[00:33:27] So here we go back to the book.
[00:33:28] You're so at your self-fulf, a mere dozen men out of nearly 500 are responded instinctively
[00:33:34] to major traps offered a step forward and excused themselves from the impending mass murder.
[00:33:39] Why was the number of men from the beginning declared themselves, who from the beginning
[00:33:45] declared themselves unwilling to shoot so small?
[00:33:48] Any kind of officer's explanation here.
[00:33:49] It's like the suddenness of it.
[00:33:52] And people are kind of surprised.
[00:33:54] And I can make sense of that, right?
[00:33:57] Like if I gave you time to say, if I was like, hey, echo, we got to go do this thing right
[00:34:00] now.
[00:34:01] You probably be like, okay, cool, let's go do it.
[00:34:03] But if I said, hey, echo, then we're going to go do something tomorrow.
[00:34:08] Tomorrow, you know, I'll pick you up at 10 30.
[00:34:13] Let me know.
[00:34:14] Well now you have time to contemplate.
[00:34:15] So he surprised him with it.
[00:34:18] There's also obviously there was pure pressure to conform.
[00:34:25] And you know, that's going to play role.
[00:34:28] And he will talk about that more later.
[00:34:30] Going back to the book, nonetheless, the act of stepping out that morning in your Sephoth,
[00:34:35] meant leaving one's comrades and admitting that one was too weak or cowardly.
[00:34:41] Who would have dared one policeman declared him fathically to lose face before the assembled
[00:34:46] troops?
[00:34:48] If the questions posed to me, why I shot with the others in the first place said another
[00:34:52] who subsequently asked to be excused after several rounds of killing, I must answer that no
[00:34:57] one wants to be thought a coward.
[00:35:01] It was one thing to refuse at the beginning he added and quite another to try and shoot,
[00:35:05] but not be able to continue.
[00:35:09] Another policeman, more aware of what truly required courage said quite simply, I was cowardly.
[00:35:16] So that person gets it.
[00:35:18] You know, these people, the shooters are saying, hey, I don't want to be a coward, so I wanted
[00:35:22] to go shoot.
[00:35:24] When I actually to stand up and say, no, that's what would have taken real moral courage
[00:35:28] at this point.
[00:35:29] And obviously, these guys knew what they were doing was wrong.
[00:35:35] They knew it.
[00:35:36] That's why some of them weren't able to continue.
[00:35:41] Now speaking of cowardly, here's a little section that I thought, you should be pointed
[00:35:48] out and we were talking about this before the podcast, how people rationalize things.
[00:35:53] Yeah.
[00:35:54] Well, listen to this rationalization.
[00:35:55] Perhaps the most astounding rationalization of all was that of a 35-year-old metal
[00:36:00] worker from Bremmerhaven.
[00:36:03] Quote, I made the effort and it was possible for me to shoot only children.
[00:36:11] So happened that the mothers led the children by the hand.
[00:36:14] My neighbor then shot the mother and I shot the child that belonged to her because I
[00:36:18] reasoned with myself that, after all, without its mother, the child could not live any
[00:36:23] longer.
[00:36:26] It was supposed to be, so to speak, soothing to my conscience to release the children unable
[00:36:32] to live without their mothers.
[00:36:38] And actually, he goes in here and talks about the German word for release also means to
[00:36:44] like redeem or save.
[00:36:46] So this guy's really twisted things up in his head.
[00:36:53] The dangers of rationalization right there, good God.
[00:36:58] Back to the book with few exceptions, the whole question of anti-Semitism is marked by
[00:37:03] silence.
[00:37:04] So this is interesting.
[00:37:07] This is very interesting.
[00:37:09] As they, and I should have pointed this out earlier, but this book is based on all these
[00:37:14] different interviews and witness accounts mostly of the policemen themselves.
[00:37:21] Now, and again, I should have pointed this out in the beginning.
[00:37:25] Of course, people are making witness statements and there's all kinds of problems with
[00:37:29] those, right?
[00:37:30] They don't remember things correctly.
[00:37:32] They're trying to protect themselves.
[00:37:33] They're trying to protect their friends.
[00:37:38] They're trying to indict certain people and make them look like the bad guy.
[00:37:39] They might be trying to make themselves look good.
[00:37:40] So there's all these kind of angles that you have to listen to.
[00:37:46] You have to understand this with.
[00:37:49] But this is interesting.
[00:37:51] As they interview these guys, back to the book with few exceptions, the whole question
[00:37:56] of anti-Semitism is marked by silence.
[00:37:59] What is clear is that the men's concern for their standing in the eyes of their comrades
[00:38:04] was not matched by any sense of human ties with their victims.
[00:38:08] The Jews stood outside their circle of human obligation and responsibility.
[00:38:13] Such a polarization between us and them between ones comrades and the enemy is, of course,
[00:38:19] standard and war.
[00:38:20] And it is indeed.
[00:38:21] But I guess what surprised me is these guys weren't going in there with thinking themselves.
[00:38:26] Okay, these are the Jews that are doing us wrong and we're going to get our chance.
[00:38:30] They were just kind of saying, well, they're not us.
[00:38:33] So we'll do what we have to do.
[00:38:41] Back to the book.
[00:38:42] Even 20 or 25 years later, those who did quit shooting along the way, overwhelmingly cited
[00:38:48] sheer physical revulsion against what they were doing as the prim motive, but the not
[00:38:53] expressed any ethical or political principles behind this revolson.
[00:38:57] So that's interesting.
[00:38:59] These guys were stopping because it made them feel sick.
[00:39:03] And they weren't saying, look, I'm actually what I've been saying is like, hey, these
[00:39:09] guys knew it was wrong.
[00:39:10] Well, they didn't think of it as wrong or at least this is explaining that they weren't
[00:39:16] thinking, oh, this is so wrong.
[00:39:18] What they were thinking was, I'm going to be sick.
[00:39:19] Now, any rational person can figure out that if something makes you sick to do, then you've
[00:39:27] got some deep-seated knowledge that what you're doing is wrong.
[00:39:33] Yeah, it seems like that that was like the moral part of it right or wrong.
[00:39:38] And so that wasn't the primary.
[00:39:40] The primary was just, I can't take the blood and gut.
[00:39:42] Yes, man.
[00:39:43] I can't take the blood and gut.
[00:39:44] Yeah, you're exactly right.
[00:39:45] Now, like I said, there's a connection.
[00:39:47] And I don't think he makes it in the book.
[00:39:48] But in my mind, there's a connection.
[00:39:50] If you're doing something that makes you feel sick, it's not just the making you feel
[00:39:56] sick.
[00:39:57] That should be bothering you.
[00:39:58] What should be bothering you is the fact that you're doing something that makes you
[00:40:00] feel sick.
[00:40:01] There's a reason why it makes you feel sick.
[00:40:03] There's a reason why human beings feel sick when they're laying down children and shooting
[00:40:08] in the back of the head.
[00:40:09] There's a reason for that.
[00:40:11] That's a, that's a, that's a, it's like a survival instinct, right?
[00:40:16] Or you're, for your species to carry on.
[00:40:19] You have to make the other members of your species survive.
[00:40:23] Yeah, especially if just like I said, there wasn't like some enemy kind of feeling
[00:40:29] towards you like, you know, it's not like, oh, we're defending ourselves against this enemy.
[00:40:33] You know, wasn't that it was just that it was essentially the minimum requirement to go
[00:40:38] against somebody.
[00:40:39] They're not.
[00:40:40] Yeah, and he's going to go into this a little bit.
[00:40:41] But yeah, you're right.
[00:40:42] It's not, it's not like there's, you know, he says, hey, there's, there's women and
[00:40:46] children being bombed back in Germany right now.
[00:40:48] But there's no direct correlation.
[00:40:50] They're not saying, hey, look, these Jews are fighting us.
[00:40:53] They're going to take over.
[00:40:54] They've got ground and, you know, on our borders.
[00:40:57] No, but I'd say that.
[00:40:58] They're actually in total control of the Jews at this point.
[00:41:02] Or they're not total control.
[00:41:03] What they're getting really close.
[00:41:05] Getting really close.
[00:41:06] Back to the book, the resentment and bitterness and the battalion over what they had
[00:41:14] been asked to do.
[00:41:16] And Yosafov was shared by virtually everyone, even those who had shot the entire day.
[00:41:22] The exclamation of one policeman to first sergeant camera of the first company that I'd
[00:41:26] go crazy if I had to do that again, express the sentiments of many.
[00:41:33] But few went beyond complaining to extricate themselves from such a possibility.
[00:41:38] So I also said, hey, I don't want to rather do that again.
[00:41:41] But very few of them said, actually made a stand.
[00:41:45] The most dramatic back to the book, the most dramatic response again was that of Lieutenant
[00:41:49] Buckman, who asked Trump to have him transferred back to Hamburg and declared that
[00:41:54] short of a direct personal order from Trump, he would not take part in Jewish actions.
[00:41:59] In the end, he wrote to Hamburg explicitly requesting a recall because he was not suited
[00:42:04] to certain tasks alien to the police that were being carried out by his unit in Poland.
[00:42:11] I mean, he had waited, had to wait until November, but his efforts to be transferred were
[00:42:14] ultimately successful.
[00:42:16] So there's a guy that's one guy that they're citing that actually said, dude, I'm not
[00:42:21] going to do this.
[00:42:25] Now it was bad enough and did have a bad enough effect on the men and they complained about
[00:42:30] enough that there was some changes.
[00:42:32] So here we go back to the book in subsequent actions.
[00:42:35] Two vital changes were introduced henceforth with some notable exceptions adhered to.
[00:42:40] First, most of the future operations of the reserve police battalion 101 involved ghetto
[00:42:48] clearing and deportation, not outright massacre on the spot.
[00:42:53] The policeman were thus relieved of the immediate horror of the killing process, which
[00:42:58] for deportees from the northern Loughlin district was carried out in the extermination camp
[00:43:05] at Trublinka.
[00:43:08] So now we're not going to, you don't have to go shoot them.
[00:43:12] You just got to gather them up and get them shipped off to the extermination camp.
[00:43:19] Second, while deportation was a horrifying procedure characterized by the terrible coercive
[00:43:24] violence needed to drive people onto the death trains as well as the systematic killing
[00:43:30] of those who could not be marched to the trains, these actions were generally undertaken
[00:43:34] jointly by units of reserve police battalion 101 and the Trunicis.
[00:43:40] SS trained auxiliaries from the Soviet territories recruited from the Russian POW camps and
[00:43:48] usually assigned to the very worst parts of the ghetto clearing and deportation.
[00:43:52] So imagine this group, you get a group of fugs that are from Russian POW camps and
[00:43:59] you say, yeah, we'll let you out of this POW camp and you can come work for us and
[00:44:05] they're trained by the SS, not exactly a friendly crew of guys.
[00:44:12] In fact, that's like, I can't imagine a worse group of people to come and come after
[00:44:19] you.
[00:44:22] Back to the book, the bulk of the killing was to be removed to the extermination camp
[00:44:25] and the worst of the on the spot dirty work was to be assigned to the Trunicis.
[00:44:33] This change would prove sufficient to allow the men of reserve police battalion 101 to become
[00:44:37] accustomed to their participation in the final solution when the time came to kill again
[00:44:43] the policemen did not go crazy.
[00:44:45] Instead they became increasingly efficient in Calist executioners.
[00:44:53] So a couple of changes, it was obviously it was too much for them to actually do all the
[00:44:59] killing themselves.
[00:45:00] Now they got some people to help them out and or they are just going to gather them up
[00:45:06] and ship them away and they'll not only play in a little piece in the in the in the
[00:45:11] machine, right?
[00:45:13] Just a little piece of the machine.
[00:45:14] So it's a lot easier to detach from what's actually happening back to the book, the
[00:45:19] Jews of Lomazi were to be the target of reserve battalion 101's first joint killing
[00:45:25] action with the unit from the Trunicis.
[00:45:29] Second company was to provide the bulk of the manpower for the roundup.
[00:45:33] The primary function of the Trunicis was unit was to provide the shooters thus alleviating
[00:45:41] the chief psychological burden the German policemen had experienced at Yoselfov.
[00:45:51] And here the the orders come out, they're going in and now there's another term that
[00:46:00] comes up.
[00:46:01] It's it has to do with the Trunicis but it's hewis and it's short.
[00:46:08] I forget what the German words are but hewis is short for two big German words.
[00:46:13] One of them that means a willing and one of them that means helper.
[00:46:17] So they called these these sort of people that had come to the German side and we're
[00:46:21] not they called him hewis and it's like I said it's stands for willing helper.
[00:46:27] It's like it's like using you've heard the term spec war.
[00:46:32] That's that's where special warfare.
[00:46:33] This is the same thing with two German words that mean willing helper.
[00:46:39] So here you go back to book the NCOs were told that the hewis from Trunicis would do
[00:46:44] the shooting.
[00:46:46] So the policeman would for the most part be spared.
[00:46:49] Nonetheless the roundup was to be conducted as had been done before which is to say
[00:46:53] that infants and the old sick and frail who could not be easily taken to the assembly
[00:46:58] point were to be shot on the spot.
[00:47:00] So not out of all the killing.
[00:47:03] According to one squad leader however most children were once again brought to the assembly
[00:47:06] point.
[00:47:08] As NCOs of the men encountered not only German Jews but specifically Hamburg Jews during
[00:47:14] the clearing action.
[00:47:16] The Jews quickly filled the school yard and overflowed into the adjoining sports field
[00:47:21] with some shooting the roundup was finished in two short hours.
[00:47:27] So that's it.
[00:47:29] That's a real sort of one sentence and if you can just try and imagine what the hell is
[00:47:35] going on there.
[00:47:37] These soldiers, these Russian soldiers, these Germans, soldiers are coming in and rounding
[00:47:42] people up there using violence, shooting people to get all the Jews into the school
[00:47:48] yard.
[00:47:50] This is a nightmare scenario that they boost that you know he puts in a sentence here.
[00:47:59] After the book the 1700 Jews of Lumazzi were then forced to sit and wait.
[00:48:05] A group of 60 to 70 young men were selected out given shovels and spades loaded onto trucks
[00:48:10] and driven to the woods.
[00:48:13] Several of the young Jews jumped from the moving trucks and made good their escape.
[00:48:18] Another attacked a German corporal, the battalion boxing champion who promptly knocked
[00:48:24] his desperate assailants senseless.
[00:48:28] And the woods, the Jews were set to digging a mass grave.
[00:48:33] Back in Lumazzi, the weight of the doomed Jews and their police guards stretched into
[00:48:39] hours.
[00:48:40] Suddenly a contingent of 50, he weas from Truninki, marched into town, led by a German SS officer.
[00:48:49] I can still remember exactly one policeman testified that immediately after the arrival
[00:48:54] of these Truniques took a break.
[00:48:56] After their arrival the Truniques took a break, I saw that in addition to food, they also
[00:49:01] took out bottles of vodka out of their packs and drink from them.
[00:49:06] The SS officer and Gnad, this is a guy that arrived on the scene now grenade, began drinking
[00:49:13] heavily as well.
[00:49:15] The other NCOs, smelled of alcohol but unlike the two commanders were not visibly drunk.
[00:49:23] So these guys are drinking vodka and they know what they're about to have to go do.
[00:49:28] Now we're talking about this guy Lieutenant Nade.
[00:49:31] Lieutenant Nade was a Nazi by conviction and an anti-Semite.
[00:49:36] He was also unpredictable, affable and approachable at times, brutal and vicious at others.
[00:49:45] And here's an eyewitness account from one of the soldiers back to the book, even before
[00:49:50] the shooting began, first Lieutenant Nade had personally picked out some 20 to 25 elderly
[00:49:56] Jews.
[00:49:58] They were exclusively men with full beards.
[00:50:01] Nade made the old men crawl on the ground in the area before the grave.
[00:50:07] Before he gave them the order to crawl, they had to undress.
[00:50:11] While the totally naked Jews crawled, first Lieutenant Nade screamed to those around,
[00:50:17] where are my non-commissioned officers?
[00:50:20] Don't you have any clubs yet?
[00:50:24] The non-commissioned officers went to the edge of the forest, fetched themselves clubs and vigorously
[00:50:29] beat the Jews with them.
[00:50:40] They get the mass-grave dug.
[00:50:49] And here we go, immediately large numbers of Jews were driven into the grave and the
[00:50:53] hewies took their position on the walls that had been thrown up from there they shot
[00:50:58] the victims.
[00:51:00] As the shooting continued, the grave began to fill.
[00:51:05] The Jews who followed had to climb on and later even clamber over those shot earlier because
[00:51:11] the grave was filled with corpses almost to the edge.
[00:51:23] The NCOs decided that the execution should continue with two firing squads on opposite
[00:51:27] sides of the grave.
[00:51:29] The Jews were forced to lie down and rose alongside each other each side of the grave and
[00:51:34] were shot by the police standing on the opposite wall.
[00:51:37] Men from all three potuins were formed into squads of eight to ten and were relieved by
[00:51:42] others in a rotation after five or six shots.
[00:51:46] After about two hours the hewies were roused from their stupor and resumed shooting in
[00:51:52] place the German policemen.
[00:51:55] The shooting was finished around 7 p.m. and the work Jews who had been kept aside covered
[00:52:01] the grave.
[00:52:03] The work Jews were then shot as well.
[00:52:07] The thin covering of the overfill grave continued to move.
[00:52:19] So you got people that are not dead that are now buried alive.
[00:52:28] There was a part that I didn't cover basically the hewies got too drunk to continue on
[00:52:33] and the police had to go and take their place for a while and then they kind of recovered.
[00:52:38] But this is this is the situation that we're talking about.
[00:52:42] Just a complete nightmare.
[00:52:46] Back to the book.
[00:52:47] One other factor sharply distinguished at Lomazzi from Yosifov and Maywell have been yet another
[00:52:52] kind of psychological relief for the men, namely, and this is important from a psychological
[00:52:59] and from a leadership perspective.
[00:53:05] One other factor sharply distinguished Lomazzi from Yosifov and Maywell have been yet another
[00:53:12] kind of psychological relief for the men.
[00:53:15] Namely, this time they did not bear the burden of choice that trap had offered them so starkly
[00:53:21] on the occasion of the first massacre.
[00:53:24] No chance to step out was given to those who did not feel up to the shooting.
[00:53:30] No one systematically excused those who were visibly too shaken to continue.
[00:53:36] Everyone assigned to the firing squad took his turn as ordered.
[00:53:40] Therefore those who shot did not have to live with clear awareness that they had what
[00:53:45] they had done had been unavoidable.
[00:53:49] That's a big difference, the big difference.
[00:53:54] And from a leadership perspective, that's something that I've actually talked about this
[00:53:59] before.
[00:54:02] It's interesting when we were in the body.
[00:54:06] We tasked you to bruise, we kind of decided what we were going to do.
[00:54:11] We weren't getting told to go do this.
[00:54:15] So everything that we did, we did because we decided that we could mitigate the risk,
[00:54:21] and we could take this good operation, and we could, there was an area that we could
[00:54:26] do a good job in.
[00:54:27] So we had a lot of control over our fate.
[00:54:32] And that's actually can be psychologically heavier because if something goes wrong, it's all
[00:54:41] on you as the leader.
[00:54:43] Or as the leadership team, or even as the guys that are on the front of the point man,
[00:54:47] the point man selecting his own, you know, going down to the front line troops, the
[00:54:52] point man is selecting the route.
[00:54:54] If he hits an IED, sure, you know, it's the enemy's fault.
[00:54:59] But he's thinking to himself, why did I choose that route?
[00:55:03] Now the army, they did have some control, but they had more often than not.
[00:55:08] They'd be getting told, hey, you're going to go on a patrol down this road or
[00:55:10] hey, you're going to go hit this building.
[00:55:11] So they were relieved oftentimes of that freedom of choice.
[00:55:19] So the freedom of choice can be a little bit of a burden.
[00:55:21] And so what happened here was the freedom of choice was taken away.
[00:55:25] And that burden was there for taking away.
[00:55:26] Look, you're going to go to shut up and do this.
[00:55:29] Guys, I'm okay.
[00:55:30] Yeah, because you have like, if you have that choice, like back to the part where the
[00:55:34] 12 guys stepped out.
[00:55:38] And yeah, we can look at it as the guys who stepped out have more courage because they're
[00:55:43] not essentially, there's two things to be kind of scared of or have courage against.
[00:55:51] One is, okay, I'm not scared to kill these people.
[00:55:55] I'm not scared to pull the trigger.
[00:55:57] And then there's, I'm not scared to go against the norms.
[00:56:01] Yeah, you know, which is a bigger kind of thing.
[00:56:03] Oh, much harder.
[00:56:04] Yeah.
[00:56:05] And you have the choice, which one are you going to do?
[00:56:09] You know, if you, if they give you the choice, okay, you can step out.
[00:56:11] If you want, what are you going to do?
[00:56:12] Everyone's looking at you like, okay, are you going to, I wonder what the tipping point
[00:56:16] would have been.
[00:56:17] In other words, like you chose to do it.
[00:56:19] No, if, if 10 people, but then what if it was 30, what if it was 40?
[00:56:24] And you see that anytime in a crowd.
[00:56:25] Yeah.
[00:56:26] You see that stupid video where there's like one guy he's dancing by himself.
[00:56:32] And it's like some viral video.
[00:56:33] Is it kind of old school?
[00:56:35] I don't know, but it's, it's a stupid viral video.
[00:56:37] You don't have to go watch it yourself, but I'll explain what happens.
[00:56:40] There's a guy there, like some kind of a concert, some kind of an outdoor concert.
[00:56:44] There's a guy dancing by himself.
[00:56:46] He's dancing by himself for a long time.
[00:56:48] And that's why I saw it, this company was talking about like group or they used this as
[00:56:52] an example of group psychology.
[00:56:54] The guy's dancing for by himself for a long time.
[00:56:57] And what they're actually saying is that the person that has the courage is actually
[00:57:01] the second person that joins him.
[00:57:03] So anyways, the one person's dancing is dancing by himself for several minutes.
[00:57:09] Then another person joins him.
[00:57:13] Once the other person joins him, then all of a sudden five people.
[00:57:18] And then it's 20 people.
[00:57:19] And then the next thing you know, everyone is dancing.
[00:57:22] And I wonder what the tipping point would have been here.
[00:57:24] Yeah.
[00:57:25] You get 10 people out of 500.
[00:57:27] That wasn't enough.
[00:57:28] Yeah, that's crazy.
[00:57:29] But you know, what if all of a sudden 15, 20, 30, 40 people would have stepped forward.
[00:57:33] Then all of a sudden, does it just everyone says, hey, we're not doing this.
[00:57:37] Yeah.
[00:57:38] Yeah, I think if they knew, I wonder if they knew for sure that there wasn't going to,
[00:57:42] you know, because some guys were getting called names.
[00:57:44] Well, yeah.
[00:57:45] And I think it was the suddenness that he talked about in the book.
[00:57:47] Yeah.
[00:57:48] If you'd have said, okay, listen tomorrow.
[00:57:49] Yeah.
[00:57:50] We're going to do, we're going to want to kill a bunch of women and children,
[00:57:53] point blank range in the woods.
[00:57:54] Yeah.
[00:57:55] You're going to have to shoot them off.
[00:57:56] Yeah.
[00:57:57] Let me know if you're down.
[00:57:58] Yeah.
[00:57:59] And then if you had done that, but then given them hours to sit there and think about it.
[00:58:03] Yeah.
[00:58:04] And then the next guy is like, hey, what are you going to do with them?
[00:58:06] Yeah.
[00:58:07] Then it may have spread.
[00:58:08] Yeah.
[00:58:09] But that peer pressure was hardcore.
[00:58:10] That's what I mean.
[00:58:11] It was hardcore.
[00:58:12] So that, yeah, especially like I said, if they're scared of the authority, it's like,
[00:58:16] okay, the tipping point is going to be more for sure.
[00:58:19] But like, you know, you do something like, you know, you're example or you ever see, you
[00:58:23] know, you see this all the time where you say something, you're on stage, you say something
[00:58:26] kind of cool.
[00:58:28] Not, you know, it's not the end of your presentation.
[00:58:30] You say something kind of cool. And then one guy starts clapping and then everyone starts clapping.
[00:58:33] Right.
[00:58:34] It's kind of that thing where this is no consequence to clapping.
[00:58:37] So it's like, oh, shoot.
[00:58:38] That's what we're doing.
[00:58:39] Okay.
[00:58:40] I, I all clap.
[00:58:41] I feel good about clapping.
[00:58:42] I'm going to do it.
[00:58:43] You know, kind of thing.
[00:58:44] There's no real resistance.
[00:58:45] So the tipping point is going to be one guy.
[00:58:46] That's the tipping point.
[00:58:47] But you get something where there's going to be, there might be some resistance, some
[00:58:49] risk, you know, of pain or, you know, whatever kind of punishment.
[00:58:53] Yeah, the tipping point is going to be more, I think.
[00:58:55] Yeah.
[00:58:56] I wonder what that is, man, because it's not like, like, the nuts.
[00:59:00] The regime was very understanding.
[00:59:03] No.
[00:59:04] No.
[00:59:05] No.
[00:59:06] I mean, you know, pretty much you can say that most military units aren't very understanding.
[00:59:12] You know, there's going to be a certain level of like a, there's discipline in place
[00:59:18] for a reason.
[00:59:19] And you can get away.
[00:59:20] You know, I talk about all the time.
[00:59:22] You know, I said, look, you can't just order people to do things.
[00:59:24] It only lasts for so long.
[00:59:25] Yeah.
[00:59:26] But how long do you need to last here?
[00:59:27] And only need to last a night.
[00:59:28] You can get everyone to do what you need them to do tonight.
[00:59:30] You know, we're okay.
[00:59:33] We got through our mission.
[00:59:35] And now I'll let them, you know, what do you do?
[00:59:38] He actually let them go get drunk and, you know, talk to them and build up some more leadership
[00:59:43] capital because he expanded, he expanded a bunch of leadership capital to get this mission
[00:59:48] done.
[00:59:49] And now he's got to rebuild it and kind of get a big development as relationship again
[00:59:53] with the guys and bring in some other changes.
[00:59:57] Hey, look, we're not going to do all the killing this time.
[00:59:59] So yeah, man, it's crazy.
[01:00:02] It's, I thought it was pretty surprising.
[01:00:05] And I'd be kind of a few kind of psychos saying refreshing to know that they didn't get
[01:00:09] that much punishment aside from some name calling, you know, because you don't think
[01:00:15] over that like that.
[01:00:16] I think when you think of it like all this in it, you know, they got to say, you're
[01:00:21] saying, yeah, people.
[01:00:23] They got, yeah.
[01:00:24] Yeah, all the guy was named called.
[01:00:25] Yeah.
[01:00:26] And that's another thing that they brought that money changed the tipping point.
[01:00:29] Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[01:00:30] When they realized, you know, those guys that stepped forward, they might have thought
[01:00:32] they get put in the ditch because there's some, and I didn't cover this part, but there's
[01:00:35] there's definitely some parts where guys like, hey, we'll put you in the ditch.
[01:00:38] That's actually what we do your job.
[01:00:40] Yeah.
[01:00:41] But I think that reveals the discomfort of the overall situation.
[01:00:46] Yeah.
[01:00:47] And when looking at their buddy saying, no, I'm going to kill you now.
[01:00:49] They were like, hey, actually, I kind of agree with you, but you just say over there, I
[01:00:52] will go forward.
[01:00:53] No.
[01:00:54] Okay, so the next situation that they get into are these deportations to triple
[01:01:01] ink of the death camp.
[01:01:03] And here we go, back to the book.
[01:01:06] While the policemen did not know precisely where the Jews were being sent or what was
[01:01:10] being done with them, it was all clear and well-known to all of us as Heinrich Steinmetz
[01:01:19] admitted that for the Jews affected these deportations meant the path to death.
[01:01:24] We suspected that they would be killed in some sort of camp.
[01:01:30] Spared direct participation in the killing, the men of reserved police battalion 101 seemed
[01:01:36] scarcely too have been disturbed by this awareness.
[01:01:40] Even though there were more victims in the deportations than in Yosifo or Lomaze,
[01:01:46] massacres combined, out of sight was truly out of mind.
[01:01:52] So now they're in this mode of just doing the deportations.
[01:01:55] Now I say just doing the deportations and I don't want to make that sound like it was
[01:02:00] in a brutal, vicious exercise that they were doing.
[01:02:05] Here we go back to the book, driven by the hewis and policemen thousands of Jews steamed
[01:02:09] into the marketplace, streamed into the marketplace.
[01:02:12] Here they had to sit or squat without moving or getting up as the hours passed on this very
[01:02:16] hot August of the late summer heat wave.
[01:02:19] They Jews fainted and collapsed, moreover beating and shooting continued in the marketplace.
[01:02:26] And I don't know if I quoted this in here if I'll get to it.
[01:02:29] But these guys, they're shooting people.
[01:02:32] They're also bringing out whips, sort of whipping people.
[01:02:35] It's brutal.
[01:02:36] Back to the book, one final horror was reserved to the end for the train cars now had to
[01:02:42] be loaded.
[01:02:43] While the hewis and security police packed 120 to 140 Jews into each car, the reserve
[01:02:49] policemen stood guard and observed.
[01:02:52] As one remembered, when it didn't go well, they made use of riding whips and guns.
[01:02:58] The loading was simply frightful.
[01:03:00] There was an unearthly cry from these poor people because 10 or 20 cars were being loaded
[01:03:06] simultaneously.
[01:03:08] The entire freight train was dreadfully long, one could not see all of it.
[01:03:13] They may have been 50 to 60 cars, if not more, and after a car was loaded, the doors were closed
[01:03:20] and nailed shut.
[01:03:23] Once all the cars were sealed, the men of reserve police did battalion 101 quickly departed
[01:03:29] without waiting to see the train pull away.
[01:03:37] These guys did their little part of the job and they're going to walk away now.
[01:03:43] But, yeah.
[01:03:50] Again, it's a nightmare scenario.
[01:03:54] Continuing on shortly before the deportation program resumed in northern security zone,
[01:03:59] reserve police battalion 101 was involved in several more mass shootings.
[01:04:05] So there's a couple of times that they don't get the help that they had before going
[01:04:10] back to the book without the experience to help with the hewis will-off organized the executions
[01:04:16] along the lines of the use of the use of shooting.
[01:04:21] The groups of 20 to 30 Jews, which had been marched out of town at succession to gravel
[01:04:26] pits, were turned over to an equal number of Peters and Eurics commandos.
[01:04:31] Thus, each policeman once again faced the individual Jew he was going to shoot.
[01:04:38] The Jews were not forced to undress, nor was there a collection of valuables.
[01:04:42] There was also no selection for labor.
[01:04:45] All the Jews, regardless of age and sex, were to be shot.
[01:04:52] So in the earlier ones, they were stripping them down and collecting their valuables.
[01:04:56] They're not even doing that.
[01:04:57] I bet they're not doing that because when you do that, you're getting some kind of
[01:05:01] an interaction.
[01:05:03] You're seeing their personal items and they didn't want any of that.
[01:05:06] Just take them out and shoot them.
[01:05:07] The easiest psychological way to do it.
[01:05:11] Back to the book, the policeman and the shooting commandos marched their Jews to the
[01:05:14] crest of one of the mounds of waste material in the area of the gravel pits.
[01:05:19] The victims were lined up facing a six foot drop.
[01:05:23] From a short distance behind the policeman fired on order into the necks of the Jews.
[01:05:28] The bodies tumbled over the edge.
[01:05:31] Following each round, the next group of Jews was brought up to the same spot and thus
[01:05:36] had to look down at the growing pile of corpses of their family and friends before they
[01:05:43] were shot in turn.
[01:05:47] Only after a number of rounds did the shooter's change sites.
[01:06:02] There's some more deportation operations.
[01:06:06] They're back to doing deportations back to the book, but even the most unfettered violence
[01:06:12] could not overcome the shortage of trained cars.
[01:06:15] And when the doors were finally foreshut about 150 Jews, mostly women and children, but
[01:06:19] also some men remained.
[01:06:22] Nade, this is that same lieutenant, sadist.
[01:06:26] Some and drucker and told him to take these Jews to the cemetery.
[01:06:30] At the cemetery entrance, the policeman chased away the eager spectators and waited until
[01:06:35] first sergeant Ostman arrived in a truck with a supply of vodka for the shooters.
[01:06:42] Ostman turned to one of his men who had hit through to avoided shooting and chided him.
[01:06:52] Drink up now, fight for.
[01:06:54] You're in for it this time because the Jewesses must be shot.
[01:06:59] You've gotten yourself out of it so far, but now you must go to it.
[01:07:04] An execution squad of about 20 men was sent into the cemetery.
[01:07:09] The Jews were brought in groups of 20 men first and then women and children.
[01:07:17] They were first to lie down near the cemetery wall and then shop from behind the neck.
[01:07:24] Which policeman fired seven or eight times.
[01:07:30] At the cemetery gate, one Jew springed a drucker with a syringe but was quickly subdued.
[01:07:34] The other Jew sat quietly awaiting their fate even after the shooting began.
[01:07:41] They were quite emaciated and looked half star of the death one guard remembered.
[01:07:54] It's covered in here, not in the detail we should cover it.
[01:08:06] But these Jews that were now getting rounded up, they were already in most of the, well,
[01:08:13] in some of the case in the book, they were already in these ghettos.
[01:08:17] Jewish ghettos, like they'd been forced into these ghettos.
[01:08:21] They were now just living there starving but they're living and then the Germans didn't
[01:08:28] no more Jews.
[01:08:29] They wanted the areas.
[01:08:30] I think the ward was jued and free, it was like free of Jews.
[01:08:33] Now even these people and by the way, there were some of the Germans that complained,
[01:08:39] like hey, those are my labors, you can't come my labors now, we're killing everyone.
[01:08:43] So even again, it's not like this is an enemy with threat.
[01:08:49] These people were now completely subdued living in these, in these, I don't call them ghettos.
[01:08:55] They're like prison ghettos.
[01:08:57] They're living in there.
[01:08:58] They're no threat to anybody but they round them up, take them out, kill them.
[01:09:04] Now one of the interesting points that they bring up in the book and I want to cover
[01:09:07] the whole thing but it's worth mentioning is that this guy Hoffman, one of the, one of
[01:09:12] the captains, he has this strange stomach illness, like he gets upset to his stomach.
[01:09:22] So here we, here we, he misses some of the actions or at least he's not there present
[01:09:30] where the executions are taking place and whatnot and it just painted a picture of the kind
[01:09:35] of leader that he is.
[01:09:37] So going back to the book uniformly, Hoffman's men offered a different perspective, meaning
[01:09:42] it's not just like, you know, he's sick to stomach and blah blah blah.
[01:09:45] By their observation, his alleged bouts of stomach cramps, confining him safely to bed, coincided
[01:09:52] all too consistently with company actions that might involve either unpleasantness or danger.
[01:09:58] It became common for the men to predict upon hearing the night before a pending action
[01:10:04] that the company chief would be bedridden in the morning.
[01:10:08] Hoffman's behavior wrankled his men even more because of two aggravating factors.
[01:10:13] First, he'd always been strict and unapproachable, a typical base officer who liked his white
[01:10:21] collar and gloves, wore his SS and signified on his uniform and demanded considerable
[01:10:26] difference.
[01:10:27] So that's the one thing you heard about the guy.
[01:10:29] His suspense, the worst picture of just such a horrible human being, he loves wearing his
[01:10:37] wrank, he loves being the guy, a base officer.
[01:10:41] Now there's a term for that.
[01:10:44] They have, I think we made up in the, not we, but the US current war fighting soldiers and
[01:10:52] Marines.
[01:10:53] It's a fobbit.
[01:10:55] A fobbit.
[01:10:56] So you get something called a forward operating base overseas and the forwarding on
[01:11:00] operating bases can actually be, you know, pretty nice there.
[01:11:04] They're relatively secure.
[01:11:06] And so the fobbit right is the leader that just wants to stay on the fob.
[01:11:11] Yeah.
[01:11:12] And want to go out.
[01:11:14] So this guy's, but of course the fobbit's are always running around, you know, wanting
[01:11:19] to be respected, demanding, respect, demanding difference.
[01:11:23] So this guy's a fobbit.
[01:11:25] The other thing is, and this is very typical of this kind of wretched human, back to the
[01:11:32] book second, Hoffman tried to compensate for his immobility by intensified supervision of his
[01:11:39] subordinates.
[01:11:40] So he's not around, but he's going to be more of a jerk and impose himself more onto
[01:11:45] the, onto the men.
[01:11:50] Now they're continuing with another ghetto that had to be cleared back to the book by
[01:11:59] October the order was for real.
[01:12:01] Placards announced that all Jews did not go to the get-os would be shot.
[01:12:06] The shooting order was made part of regular company instructions to the men and given repeatedly
[01:12:11] especially before they were sent on patrol.
[01:12:14] No one could be left in any doubt that not a single Jew is to remain alive in the battalion
[01:12:19] security zone.
[01:12:21] In official jargon, the battalion made a forest patrols for suspects.
[01:12:27] As the surviving Jews were to be tracked down and shot like animals, however, the men of
[01:12:33] reserve police battalion 101 of unofficially dubbed this phase of the final solution,
[01:12:39] the Jew hunt.
[01:12:43] The Jew hunt took many forms, most spectacular were two battalion sweeps.
[01:12:52] And here's some George Lefler of third company talking about that.
[01:12:57] What those sweeps were like back to the book, we were told that there were many Jews hiding
[01:13:02] in the forest.
[01:13:03] We therefore searched through the woods in a skirmish line, but we could find nothing,
[01:13:08] because the Jews were obviously well hidden.
[01:13:11] We combed the woods a second time, only then could we discover individual chimney pipes
[01:13:16] sticking out of the earth.
[01:13:19] We discovered that Jews had hidden themselves in underground bunkers here.
[01:13:23] They were hauled out with some resistance and only one bunker, some of the comrades climbed
[01:13:28] down into the bunker and hauled the Jews out.
[01:13:31] The Jews were then shot on the spot.
[01:13:33] The Jews had to lie at face down on the ground and were killed by a neck shot.
[01:13:40] Who is in the firing squad?
[01:13:41] I don't remember.
[01:13:42] I think it was simply a case where the men standing nearby were ordered to shoot them.
[01:13:49] Some 50 Jews were shot, including men and women of all ages, because entire families had
[01:13:54] hidden themselves there.
[01:13:57] The shooting took place quite publicly.
[01:14:00] No cordon was formed at all for a number of poles from parse-ru, were standing directly
[01:14:07] by the shooting site.
[01:14:09] They were then ordered presumably by Hoffman to bury the Jews who had been shot in a
[01:14:14] half-finished bunker.
[01:14:18] So again, you've got some of the Jews who had been consolidated in these getos and now
[01:14:23] there are anyone that's not any Jew that's not the ghetto that they're out hunting them.
[01:14:27] Here's another version of it.
[01:14:28] In cases where the farm yard and the Jewish lodgings could be reached quickly, I drove
[01:14:33] into the farm yard at high speed and the police spring out and immediately rushed to the
[01:14:36] Jewish lodgings.
[01:14:38] And all the Jews present at the time were driven out and shot in the farm yard near a
[01:14:42] haystack, potato pit, or done heap.
[01:14:46] The victims were almost always naked and were shot in the neck while lying on the ground.
[01:14:58] Now even as this was taking place, there's still people that are trying to avoid the
[01:15:05] shooting back to the book, the tactic of keeping one's distance was invoked by Heinrich
[01:15:13] Foigt to explain how he avoided shooting on all the one occasion.
[01:15:20] One always had a certain freedom of movement of a few meters and from experience, I noticed
[01:15:24] very quickly that the platoon leader almost always chose the people standing next to him.
[01:15:30] I thus always attempted to take position as far as possible from the center of events.
[01:15:35] There's likewise sought to avoid shooting by staying in the background.
[01:15:42] So there's still guys that are not, they're trying to do their best not to participate.
[01:15:49] Again, if they do anything to stop it, no.
[01:15:52] But this was a great kind of a wrap on the Jew hunt and what this was like back to the
[01:15:58] book.
[01:15:59] The Jew hunt was not a brief episode.
[01:16:01] It was a tenacious, remorseless ongoing campaign in which the hunters track down and killed
[01:16:08] their prey in direct and personal confrontation.
[01:16:12] It was not a passing phase, but an existential condition of constant readiness and intention
[01:16:18] to kill every last Jew who could be found.
[01:16:29] Now we're going to cover this last massacre that took place and Jews had been sent from
[01:16:44] to a prison camp to be executed and they were rounded up, I think it was a place called
[01:16:48] Lake Leibick.
[01:16:53] They were sent to be executed.
[01:16:54] And the police battalion is now acting as kind of guards and accessories to this to
[01:17:01] make sure that the executions, these mass executions take place, correctly going back
[01:17:07] to the book.
[01:17:08] As the Jews pass between the chain of reserve policemen into the camp, music blared
[01:17:13] from two loudspeaker trucks.
[01:17:16] Despite the attempt to drown out other noise, the sound of steady gunfire could be heard
[01:17:21] from the camp.
[01:17:24] The Jews were taken to the last row of barracks where they undressed.
[01:17:28] Arms raised, hands clasped behind their necks, totally naked.
[01:17:33] They were letting groups from the barracks through a whole cut in the fence to the trenches
[01:17:37] that had been dug behind the camp.
[01:17:41] This route was guarded by men from the reserve police battalion 101.
[01:17:47] Stationed only 10 meters from the graves.
[01:17:49] Line-recobl cult of first company witnessed the killing procedure.
[01:17:55] Quote, from my position, I could now observe how the Jews were driven naked from the barracks
[01:18:00] by other members of our battalion.
[01:18:04] The shooters of the execution commando, who sat on the edge of the graves directly in front
[01:18:09] of me were members of the SD and the SD is like the SS intel intelligence group, the SD.
[01:18:18] Some distance behind each shooter stood several other SD men who constantly kept the magazines
[01:18:24] of the submachine guns filled and handed them to each shooter.
[01:18:29] The number of shooters were assigned to each grave.
[01:18:32] Today I can no longer provide details about the number of graves.
[01:18:37] It is possible that there were many such graves where shooting took place simultaneously.
[01:18:42] I definitely remember that the naked Jews were driven directly into the graves and forced
[01:18:47] to lie down quite precisely on top of those who had been shot before them.
[01:18:53] The shooter then fired off a burst at these prone victims.
[01:18:58] How long the action lasted, I can no longer say with certainty.
[01:19:03] Presumably it lasted the entire day because I remember that I was relieved once from my post.
[01:19:11] I can give no details about the number of victims but there were an awful lot of them.
[01:19:23] It's almost incomprehensible to imagine that you're one of these Jews getting forced,
[01:19:31] you're naked, lay down, go into this pit, lay down on top of those other people that
[01:19:36] were just shot so you can be shot too.
[01:19:40] Other witness, Martin Dettmold.
[01:19:43] Quote, because I was a group leader and could move about more freely, I went once directly
[01:19:48] to the execution site and saw how the newly arriving Jews had to lie down on those already
[01:19:52] shot.
[01:19:54] They were then likewise shot with burst from submachine guns.
[01:19:58] The SD men took care that the Jews were shot in such a way that there were inclines
[01:20:04] in the piles of corpses enabling the newcomers to lie down on the corpses piled as much
[01:20:09] as three meters high.
[01:20:13] The whole business was the most gruesome I have ever seen in my life because I was frequently
[01:20:18] able to see that after a burst of a burst had been fired, the Jews were only wounded
[01:20:25] and those still living were more or less buried alive beneath the corpses of those shot
[01:20:30] later.
[01:20:32] I got the wounded being given so-called mercy shots.
[01:20:39] I remember that from out of the pile of corpses the SS men were cursed by the wounded.
[01:20:56] And that was sort of the final participation of 101 Battalion and here we get to there
[01:21:07] how it kind of wrapped up at the conclusion of the earned fest massacres, the district
[01:21:16] of Lublin was for all practical purposes, Juden free of Jews.
[01:21:22] The murderous participation of Reserve Battalion Reserve Police Battalion 101 in the final
[01:21:27] solution came to an end.
[01:21:30] With a conservative estimate of 6,500 Jews shot during earlier actions like those at Yosafov
[01:21:37] and Lomazzi and 1,000 shot during the Jew hunts and a minimum estimate of 3,000, 500 Jews
[01:21:46] shot at Magnank and Punitwa, the Battalion had participated in the direct shooting deaths
[01:21:53] of at least 38,000 Jews.
[01:22:01] With the death camp deportation of at least 3,000 Jews from my direct in early May 1943,
[01:22:09] the number of Jews they had placed on trains to Lublinca had risen to 45,000.
[01:22:18] For a battalion of less than 500 men, the ultimate body count was at least 83,000
[01:22:26] Jews.
[01:22:41] Unbelievable.
[01:22:46] And here he asks the question back to the book, why did most men in Reserve Police
[01:22:50] Battalion 101 become killers while only in my naughty?
[01:22:54] Of perhaps 10% and certainly no more than 20% did not.
[01:22:59] A number of explanations have been invoked in the past to explain such behavior, wartime
[01:23:05] brutalization, racism, segmentation, and routineization of the task, special selection of
[01:23:14] the perpetrators, careerism, obedience to orders, death threats to authority, ideological
[01:23:21] and indoctrination and conformity.
[01:23:24] These factors are applicable in varying degrees, but none without qualifications.
[01:23:29] They're trying to figure out why these people did what they did.
[01:23:34] And those that's less of all the kind of excuses or reasons I should say of why these men
[01:23:40] behave this way.
[01:23:43] Talks a little bit about overall kind of war crimes here.
[01:23:48] Back to the book, many of the most notorious wartime atrocities.
[01:23:52] The Japanese rampage through Manila, the American slaughter of prisoners and mutilation
[01:23:56] of corpses on many of the Pacific Islands and the massacre at Mely, involved a kind of
[01:24:00] battlefield frenzy.
[01:24:03] Soldiers who are a nerd to violence, numb to the taking of human life, embittered over
[01:24:09] their own casualties and frustrated by the tenacity of an insidious and seemingly inhuman
[01:24:15] enemy, sometimes exploded and at other times grimly resolved to have their revenge at
[01:24:20] first opportunity.
[01:24:22] So that's one type.
[01:24:25] For me, what's that called when a non-premeditated murder?
[01:24:30] Like the guy comes home and his wife's with some other guy and boom, he goes battlefield
[01:24:36] frenzy.
[01:24:38] That's one kind.
[01:24:39] Now we talk about this premeditated.
[01:24:41] Back to the book, other kinds of atrocity, lacking the immediacy of the battlefield frenzy
[01:24:46] and fully expressing official government policy, decidedly weren't standard operating procedures.
[01:24:54] Fire bombing of German Japanese cities, the enslavement of an murderous maltreatment
[01:25:00] of foreign laborers in German camps and factories, or along the CM, Burma Railroad.
[01:25:08] The reprisal shooting of 100 civilians for every German soldier killed by partisan attacking
[01:25:12] UNIguicloislawia or elsewhere in Eastern Europe.
[01:25:15] These were not the spontaneous explosions or cruel revenge of brutalized men, but the
[01:25:20] methodical executed policies of government.
[01:25:27] Both kinds of atrocities occur in the brutalizing context of war, but the men who carry out
[01:25:32] atrocity by policy are in a different state of mind.
[01:25:36] They act not out of frenzy, bitterness, and frustration, but with calculation.
[01:25:43] Clearly the men of reserve police battalion 101 in implementing the systematic Nazi policy
[01:25:48] of exterminating European jury, along in the second category.
[01:25:55] Except for a few, the oldest men who were veterans of World War I and a few NCOs who had
[01:25:59] been transferred from Poland to Poland from Russia, the men of the battalion had not seen
[01:26:03] battle or encountered a deadly enemy.
[01:26:07] Most of them had not fired a shot in anger or even been fired upon, much less lost comrades
[01:26:13] in fighting at their side.
[01:26:16] Thus wartime brutalization through prior combat was not an immediate experience directly
[01:26:22] influencing the policeman's behavior at Yosifov.
[01:26:26] Once the killing began, however, the men became increasingly brutalized.
[01:26:32] As in combat, the horrors of the initial encounter eventually became routine and the killing
[01:26:39] became progressively easier.
[01:26:42] In a sense, in this sense, brutalization was not the cause, but the effect of the men's
[01:26:48] behavior.
[01:26:49] He's saying, look, like what you said, these guys are finding an enemy.
[01:26:53] They hadn't lost their buddy.
[01:26:54] They're not avenging their buddy.
[01:26:57] They've got killed next to him.
[01:26:58] They're blown up by an IED and now they're going to take it out on this group that they
[01:27:02] capture.
[01:27:03] It's not like that.
[01:27:08] Back to the book, as John Dauer has observed, the dehumanization of the other, contributed
[01:27:12] to emagerably to the psychological distancing that facilitated killing.
[01:27:18] Distancing, not frenzy and brutalization is one of the keys to the behavior of the reserve
[01:27:23] of the police battalion 101, war and negative racial stereotyping were to mutually reinforcing
[01:27:30] factors in this distancing.
[01:27:32] So in order to kill these people, you got to distance yourself from them.
[01:27:36] You can't see them as human.
[01:27:37] You can't see them as people.
[01:27:41] Many scholars of the Holocaust, especially Raoul Hilberg, have emphasized the bureaucratic and
[01:27:47] administrative aspects of the destruction process.
[01:27:51] This is very interesting.
[01:27:53] This approach emphasizes the degree to which modern bureaucratic life fosters a functional
[01:27:58] and physical distancing in the same way that war and negative racial stereotyping promote
[01:28:03] a psychological distancing between perpetrator and victim.
[01:28:06] So you form this bureaucratic machine that you're only a little piece of it.
[01:28:13] You know, all you're doing is collecting people.
[01:28:15] All you're doing is putting them in change.
[01:28:16] You're not killing anybody.
[01:28:17] Yeah.
[01:28:18] You're all you're doing is rounding them up.
[01:28:19] All you're doing is guarding them as they're getting pushed down to the into the graves.
[01:28:22] That's not you.
[01:28:23] Yeah.
[01:28:24] It's a big bureaucratic machine.
[01:28:25] You're not really just a little piece of it.
[01:28:29] Back to the book.
[01:28:30] Indeed, many of the perpetrators of the Holocaust were so called desicmergers, whose role in
[01:28:34] the mass extermination was greatly facilitated by the bureaucratic nature of their participation.
[01:28:39] Their jobs frequently consist of tiny steps in the overall killing process and they perform
[01:28:45] them in routine manner, never seeing the victims.
[01:28:48] Their actions affected.
[01:28:51] Regmented, routineized, and depersonalized, the job of the bureaucratic, the bureaucratic
[01:28:58] or specialist, whether it involved confiscating property, scheduling trains, drafting legislation,
[01:29:04] sending telegrams or compiling lists.
[01:29:07] Lists could be performed without confronting them reality of mass murder.
[01:29:14] Such a luxury, of course, was not enjoyed by the men of reserve police, but I in 101,
[01:29:18] who were quite literally saturated in the blood of victim shot at point blank range.
[01:29:23] No one confronted the reality of mass murder more directly than the men in the woods of
[01:29:27] Yosifov.
[01:29:29] Segmentation and routineization, the depersonalizing aspects of the bureaucratic, of the bureaucratic
[01:29:37] caused killing, cannot explain the battalions initial behavior there.
[01:29:43] So again, he's saying, look, that makes sense.
[01:29:46] He turned us into a big bureaucratic thing, but that's not what happened here with these
[01:29:49] guys.
[01:29:51] The facilitating psychological effect of a division of labor for the killing process was
[01:29:56] not totally negligible, however.
[01:29:58] So then he talks about the fact that they did make those adjustments and take the killing
[01:30:04] out of their hands somewhat.
[01:30:08] And that did make it easier for them.
[01:30:10] Now he talks about, you know, one of the things that he mentioned early on on why this
[01:30:13] happening talks about the special selection of the right people.
[01:30:20] Well, that doesn't really hold true either because here we go.
[01:30:22] Back to the book, the case for special selection of officers is even more difficult to make.
[01:30:26] By SS standards, major trap was a patriotic German, but traditionally an overly sentimental.
[01:30:33] What and not, Nazi Germany was scornfully considered both weak and reactionary.
[01:30:40] So you can't say it was the selection of people and we already talked about all the different
[01:30:44] types of normal people that were doing this.
[01:30:47] They didn't pull some truck driver in Hamburg, I'll say that's 38 years old and say this
[01:30:52] guy's going to be the perfect no big thing.
[01:30:54] They didn't do that.
[01:30:57] Back to the book, reserve police battalion was not sent to Lublin to murder Jews because
[01:31:02] it was composed of men specifically selected or deemed particularly suited for the task.
[01:31:08] On the contrary, the battalion was the drags of the manpower pool available at that stage
[01:31:12] of war.
[01:31:14] It was employed to kill Jews because it was the only kind of unit available for such
[01:31:17] behind the line duties.
[01:31:21] Many studies of Nazi killers suggested a different kind of selection, namely self-selection
[01:31:25] to the party and the SS by unusually violence prone people.
[01:31:33] Shortly after the war, Theodore Edorno and many others and others developed the
[01:31:37] notion that there's an authoritarian personality.
[01:31:42] So they started looking at the, there's certain people that have that are susceptible
[01:31:50] to having this type of personality.
[01:31:53] They made up something called the F scale, which is like your propensity to have a authoritarian
[01:32:00] personality.
[01:32:01] Here's some of the ingredients there.
[01:32:06] The book rigid inherent to conventional values, submissiveness to authoritarian, to authority
[01:32:12] figures, aggressiveness toward outdroops, opposition to introspection, reflection and creativity,
[01:32:19] a tendency to superstition and stereotyping, preoccupation with power and toughness, destructiveness
[01:32:26] and cynicism.
[01:32:29] So these are the kind of things that they're saying that these types of personalities
[01:32:33] would become Nazis because that's the type of personality they have.
[01:32:40] There's another kind of kind of to make this as simple as possible, a guy named Zigmunt
[01:32:45] Balman has summed up the approach as follows.
[01:32:49] Naziism was cruel because Nazis were cruel and the Nazis were cruel because cruel people
[01:32:54] tend to become Nazis.
[01:32:56] Again, these are theories.
[01:32:59] I don't think you can apply that to a truck driver from Hamburg that got drafted.
[01:33:05] They didn't even self-select for they got drafted.
[01:33:07] They got told, okay, you need to be in the army here.
[01:33:11] Yeah, in the police, but it's not necessarily, you know, a person being a truck driver
[01:33:20] is like, you know, this exclusionary occupation.
[01:33:24] It's more like just because they're a truck driver.
[01:33:27] It just doesn't mean anything.
[01:33:28] It's like that's not the fact that the truck driver is something.
[01:33:31] Anything, when they talked about all these people from Hamburg, anything that they talked
[01:33:34] about, none of those, it's not like we got a bunch of guys that worked at a slaughterhouse.
[01:33:42] Yeah, yeah.
[01:33:43] Yeah, we're going to be a crude all these people from a slaughterhouse.
[01:33:45] No, we didn't recruit hunters.
[01:33:47] We didn't, they didn't recruit football players because they're aggressive.
[01:33:52] No, it was just random, any job.
[01:33:54] And they showed up there.
[01:33:56] So basically what I'm getting out of this is you saying, like, no, it's like, you can't
[01:34:00] really say it's that either, right?
[01:34:02] Because it's just a waiter and a salesperson.
[01:34:05] But at the same time, the guy who's a waiter could have these other qualities, you know,
[01:34:09] like how you're talking about.
[01:34:10] Yeah, but you take 500 people from Hamburg between the ages of 35 and 40.
[01:34:14] You're not going to find that it's like all these guys had those kind of fascist qualities
[01:34:19] about them, right?
[01:34:20] Not happening.
[01:34:21] Yeah, man.
[01:34:22] It's good.
[01:34:23] Some people become, this is Eric, or sorry, Irvin's job accepts the notion that some
[01:34:33] people become perpetrators as a result of their personality, they are self-selected.
[01:34:39] And he says that under particular circumstances, most people have a capacity for extreme
[01:34:45] violence and the destruction of human life.
[01:34:47] It's an interesting one.
[01:34:51] Under certain circumstances, everyone has a prevents you for violence.
[01:34:56] I'm sure there's people that would argue that in all different directions.
[01:34:59] But you know, you take a middle-aged woman that's never been in a fist fight before and
[01:35:06] you have somebody attack her child that's going to kill or harm their child.
[01:35:10] I think you can see a prevents you for violence and from a lot of them.
[01:35:14] Yeah.
[01:35:15] Maybe even of, you know, what, 99%.
[01:35:18] Sure.
[01:35:19] I'm going to say 99%.
[01:35:21] I'll go with that, do you?
[01:35:23] Yeah.
[01:35:24] 99%.
[01:35:25] If you're, if it's a middle-aged woman who has someone that's about to severely hurt or kill
[01:35:31] their child, and they're ready to stop it as with a pistol.
[01:35:35] Right.
[01:35:36] My assessment is we're going to 99%.
[01:35:39] Yeah.
[01:35:40] That perpetrator's getting killed.
[01:35:43] Yeah.
[01:35:44] With specific effort towards the violent part of it.
[01:35:52] You know, I'm not saying on a movie necessarily, but you know, that whole thing.
[01:35:58] Well, let's say I imagine a scenario like that where the lady's going to shoot this guy
[01:36:02] because the guy's attacking the kid is on the thing.
[01:36:05] It won't be like, oh, let me do the bare minimum force, you know, to eliminate the threat.
[01:36:11] She's probably going to be kind of shows over word killing that guy.
[01:36:15] Get a kill in the extra.
[01:36:17] Yeah, yeah, because that's kind of the violence coming out of someone.
[01:36:20] It's one thing to do because I'm scared.
[01:36:22] Oh my gosh, get away from me.
[01:36:23] Kind of thing.
[01:36:24] That's not violence.
[01:36:25] Yeah.
[01:36:26] So, that's really the question when you consider a middle-aged girl, you know, having
[01:36:31] a friend to be provided.
[01:36:32] I don't think she's going to do extra.
[01:36:34] I think she's going to kill him and go grab her kid and make sure he can safe.
[01:36:37] Right.
[01:36:38] This extra level, you know, desecration of the body or anything like that.
[01:36:43] Right.
[01:36:44] I'm going to make my kid safe.
[01:36:46] Yeah, so you're saying the propensity for violence in that case is just the mere act
[01:36:51] of killing the guy.
[01:36:52] Yeah.
[01:36:53] Well, yeah, that's it.
[01:36:54] Yeah.
[01:36:55] But you know, like, I'm thinking of a movie for whatever reason.
[01:37:01] Because that's all that's all you're bringing this filled with.
[01:37:04] But you know, television in general.
[01:37:07] But, you know, the girl, she's like scared.
[01:37:10] It's all done out of fear, you know?
[01:37:11] And I'm sure it's almost like the violence has just happened.
[01:37:14] It's not her propensity for violence, especially.
[01:37:16] But it's just the violence.
[01:37:17] Yeah, but I'm just saying, if you set up an experiment.
[01:37:19] Yes.
[01:37:20] Where you took a middle-aged group of women.
[01:37:22] Yeah.
[01:37:23] And they had children.
[01:37:24] Yeah, like when you put them in a scenario where, you know, was either the, either the
[01:37:29] kid dies or they killed the perpetrator.
[01:37:31] Right.
[01:37:32] You know, not like a, hey, I might be able to bathe him out of it.
[01:37:34] No, the, the, the acts is in the air.
[01:37:37] It's going to be swung down on the kid.
[01:37:39] Right, right.
[01:37:40] You have to press this button to kill that guy.
[01:37:42] Yeah, we're violent.
[01:37:43] The choice.
[01:37:44] Violence is my choice.
[01:37:45] Yeah.
[01:37:46] I think the propensity is going to be 99.
[01:37:47] Yeah.
[01:37:48] Yeah.
[01:37:49] I'm going to go to your higher.
[01:37:51] Okay.
[01:37:52] So this, then he gets into some of these real famous experiments, kind of sociological experiments.
[01:38:00] One of them is this in Bartos, Stanford prison experiment.
[01:38:04] Yeah.
[01:38:05] Everyone's heard of that where they basically take people and divide them up.
[01:38:09] And just randomly.
[01:38:10] And actually, I didn't know this because I never did any deep research on the study.
[01:38:14] But they, they kind of do a pre-screening to make sure that there's no extreme personalities.
[01:38:21] Everyone, everyone, I was like, I mean, however you could, you could frame the world
[01:38:24] normal.
[01:38:25] The people that participate in the experiment are just like normal people.
[01:38:28] They didn't have any extreme personalities.
[01:38:30] Well, those kind of semi normal people, they put them in that prison experiment and
[01:38:36] sure enough, some people were made guards, some people were made prisoners.
[01:38:40] And they had to get him to do certain things.
[01:38:42] And there's a certain number.
[01:38:43] I mean, didn't take long for the guards.
[01:38:45] I think it took six days, some of the guards turned sadistic evil.
[01:38:49] Right.
[01:38:50] And here we go back to the book.
[01:38:53] Most dramatic and distressing to us was the observation of the ease with which sadistic
[01:38:57] behavior could be elicited in individuals who were not sadistic types.
[01:39:03] The prison situation alone, Zimbardo concluded, was a sufficient condition to produce
[01:39:09] abherent anti-social behavior.
[01:39:12] From the guards, from the guards.
[01:39:15] So this is pretty scary.
[01:39:17] That another fact here pointed out about that only two, IE less than 20% emerged as good guards
[01:39:25] who did not punish prisoners even as they hadn't even did for small favor from.
[01:39:29] So those numbers are pretty in line with this really small percentage of people that
[01:39:33] just, they're just good people.
[01:39:35] Right.
[01:39:36] It's only 10 to 20% of actual good people.
[01:39:39] How's that make you feel about the human race?
[01:39:41] Not real good.
[01:39:42] Yeah.
[01:39:43] Not real good.
[01:39:46] All right.
[01:39:48] Another thing put out here back to the book among the perpetrators, of course, orders
[01:39:54] have traditionally been most frequently cited explanation for their own behavior.
[01:40:00] So remember orders or orders, orders were orders and no one in such a political climate
[01:40:04] could be expected disobey them, they insisted.
[01:40:08] This is the guards.
[01:40:09] I mean, sorry, this is the police to battalion.
[01:40:11] Saying, look, we're getting ordered to do this stuff.
[01:40:12] We're just following orders.
[01:40:13] We hear that all the time.
[01:40:16] Disobedience surely meant the concentration camp, if not immediate execution, possibly
[01:40:22] for their families as well.
[01:40:24] So they're saying, look, if we would end up in the concentration camps ourselves, this
[01:40:27] happened.
[01:40:28] Now, he points this out.
[01:40:30] Back to the book, there is a general problem with this explanation.
[01:40:33] However, quite simply in the past 45 years, no defense attorney or defendant in any of the
[01:40:39] hundreds of postwar trials has been able to document a single case in which refusal to obey
[01:40:45] an order to kill on arm civilians resulted in the allegedly inevitable dire punishment.
[01:40:52] So there's no precedence for that.
[01:40:54] Now, I don't think that these guys out there in the battalion are sitting there thinking
[01:41:02] about this with a legal perspective.
[01:41:05] Well, actually, there's no precedent for punishment being carried out on people that have
[01:41:09] been on.
[01:41:10] I think that's a stretch.
[01:41:11] I think that's a stretch.
[01:41:12] Well, when you're talking about maybe someone contemplating these guys that were saying,
[01:41:18] I couldn't refuse the orders because I would get punished.
[01:41:21] And he's saying that there's no precedence that you actually will get this severe
[01:41:27] punishment.
[01:41:28] But how is it, you know, when someone else is feeling going to know that that's a, that's
[01:41:33] a precedent.
[01:41:34] You don't, you just think, I don't want to get in trouble.
[01:41:36] Yeah, you're not thinking about the time you remember the guy that you heard of getting
[01:41:41] killed.
[01:41:42] Yeah, you're not thinking about that.
[01:41:43] You're thinking about you.
[01:41:44] You're not even more so you're not thinking about the fact that you've never heard
[01:41:47] of that before.
[01:41:48] Yeah, exactly.
[01:41:49] Yeah, yeah.
[01:41:50] All right.
[01:41:51] Now, so we're talking about obedience of orders.
[01:41:53] And here we go back to the book.
[01:41:54] A few obedience to orders out of fear of dire punishment is not a valid explanation.
[01:41:59] What about obedience to authority in the more general sense used by Stanley Millgram,
[01:42:06] difference simply as a product of socialization and evolution, a deeply ingrained behavior
[01:42:12] tendency to comply with the directives of those positioned hierarchically above them.
[01:42:19] Once of the point of performing repugnant actions in violation of universally accepted moral
[01:42:26] norms.
[01:42:27] So you've heard of the Millgram experiments.
[01:42:29] No.
[01:42:30] No, these are kind of like the Stanford prison, pretty famous.
[01:42:34] And what he did was he set up these experiments where he had, you couldn't see these actors
[01:42:40] were behind a wall.
[01:42:42] But they were getting asked questions.
[01:42:44] And if they answered the question wrong, they would get a little electric shock.
[01:42:49] That was done by the person that was being experimented on.
[01:42:53] So you know, I would be, they'd say, okay, Jocco, you got this guy.
[01:42:56] His name is Echo, he's over there going to ask him a question.
[01:42:58] If he gets it wrong, get him with this shock.
[01:43:01] I can't see you, but I can hear you.
[01:43:04] So when I shock you, and every question that you get wrong, I have to escalate the level
[01:43:10] of shock.
[01:43:11] So it's getting worse and worse and worse and worse.
[01:43:12] And your reaction is more and more horrific as these things escalate.
[01:43:16] You're the guy, the experiment is not on me.
[01:43:19] No, you're just an actor.
[01:43:20] There's no actual shock.
[01:43:21] Okay, got you.
[01:43:22] And you're actually going through a series of complaints.
[01:43:27] And I'll read this here.
[01:43:30] There was an escalating series of fake electric shocks upon a vector of victim who responded
[01:43:35] with carefully programmed voice feedback and escalating series of complaints.
[01:43:39] Rise of pain, call for help, and finally, fake full silence.
[01:43:45] In the standard voice feedback experiment, two thirds of pilgrims' subjects were obedient
[01:43:51] to the point of inflicting extreme pain.
[01:43:56] Several variations on the experiment produced significantly different results.
[01:43:59] If the actor slash victim was shielded so that the subject could hear and see no response
[01:44:05] obedience was much greater.
[01:44:07] So if I couldn't hear you and I just knew that I was shocking the hell out of you,
[01:44:11] I was good with it.
[01:44:12] If the subject had both visual and voice feedback, compliance fell to the, compliance
[01:44:18] to the extreme fell to 40%.
[01:44:20] So down from 66% to 40%.
[01:44:23] If the subject had to touch the actor slash victim physically by forcing his hand onto an electric
[01:44:29] plate to deliver the shocks, obedience dropped to 30%.
[01:44:34] Now this is this is fascinating, if a non-affordy figure gave orders obedience was nil.
[01:44:42] So if some guy was like, hey, you know, I'm Bill, I'm running the experiment, hey,
[01:44:48] shock this guy, if the guy was no authority, they got no, they got no, none, no, it's
[01:44:54] that shows you.
[01:44:55] And that's from a leadership perspective, that's very important to understand.
[01:44:58] It's important to understand how much influence you have when you're in a leadership
[01:45:01] position.
[01:45:02] This all time, when I ran into in the SEAL teams, when a guy doesn't recognize the
[01:45:08] power of his rank.
[01:45:10] And he does recognize that just by wearing his rank, when he says something, people kind
[01:45:14] of like going to do it, they got, well, they want to do it.
[01:45:20] So then going back to the book here, if the naive subject performed a subsidiary or accessory
[01:45:28] task, but did not personally inflict the electric shocks, obedience was nearly total.
[01:45:34] So that goes down to the division of labor again.
[01:45:36] If it was just me saying, okay, ask them a question, you have to shock them again.
[01:45:39] And some other guy was shockin' you, I'd go straight to 100.
[01:45:44] Straight to 100.
[01:45:46] In contrast, if the subject or peer was part of an, if the subject was part of an actor
[01:45:50] peer group that staged carefully planned refusal to continue to fall into directions of the
[01:45:55] authority figure, the vast majority of subjects 90% joined their peer group and resist
[01:46:02] and desist as well.
[01:46:03] So that's the tipping point thing.
[01:46:05] If there was other, so if it was three of us that were conducting the experiment on you
[01:46:09] and the other, and I was the, the naive guy that doesn't know what's going on, I'm the one
[01:46:14] that they were actually doing the experiment on.
[01:46:18] And there's two guys, two actors that are in the room with me, and they're going to
[01:46:21] be like, hey man, we shouldn't be doing this.
[01:46:22] And the other guy goes, yeah man, that looks like it's really hurting.
[01:46:24] We should stop this.
[01:46:25] 90% of the time, I go, yeah, you guys are right.
[01:46:30] Psychology, group psychology.
[01:46:32] If the subject was given complete discretion as to the level of lecture chalk to administer,
[01:46:36] all but a few sedists consistently delivered a minimal shock.
[01:46:41] When not under director, Vanillence of the scientist, many of the subjects cheated by giving
[01:46:46] lower shocks than prescribed, even though they were unable to confront authority and abandon
[01:46:52] the experiment.
[01:46:53] They give lower shocks if they wouldn't walk away from it.
[01:46:55] They wouldn't just say, I'm not going to do this.
[01:46:57] Yeah.
[01:46:58] It took it to everyone's re, really, you know what it is?
[01:47:02] We're all just on the edge, man.
[01:47:04] In a way.
[01:47:05] Yeah.
[01:47:06] And we kind of need each other in that way too.
[01:47:08] Well, it's, it's again, this is, you know, this is about leadership.
[01:47:11] It's amazing how influential, or how influential people are.
[01:47:17] They're so ready for influencers, so ready to be told like, hey man, we shouldn't be
[01:47:21] doing this.
[01:47:22] It's the same thing we saw with the podcast on the Meal Eye Masker.
[01:47:25] All it took was one officer saying stop killing.
[01:47:27] And everyone, okay, stop killing.
[01:47:29] Everyone just, they just need to get nudged in that direction.
[01:47:32] And by the way, they had already been nudged in the other direction, which is kill everyone.
[01:47:35] They said, okay, go with the other one.
[01:47:36] And that's what I mean, but I don't mean on the edge of like sanding nothing.
[01:47:39] I mean, on the fence.
[01:47:40] Yeah, on the fence.
[01:47:41] That's why leadership is so important because you're walking around with people all over
[01:47:44] the world and whatever position you're in, regardless if it's in a work environment,
[01:47:48] it's in a social environment, if it's with your friend, your peer group, you have so much
[01:47:52] power over people just by being a leader.
[01:47:55] And by using that influence to work people one way or the other.
[01:47:59] Yeah, it's crazy.
[01:48:01] Yeah, it is crazy.
[01:48:05] Going back to the book to what were the vast majority of traps men responding to when
[01:48:10] they did not step out?
[01:48:13] Was it the authority as represented by either trap or his superiors, where they responding
[01:48:18] to trap not primarily as an authority figure, but as an individual, a popular and beloved
[01:48:23] officer who they assumed, who they would not leave in the lurch.
[01:48:28] What about other factors?
[01:48:30] Milgram himself notes that far, that people far more frequently invoke authority than conformity
[01:48:38] to explain their behavior.
[01:48:40] For only the former seems to absolve them of personal responsibility.
[01:48:46] He quotes here, subjects denied conformity and embrace obedience as the explanation of their
[01:48:52] actions.
[01:48:53] So people don't like to say everyone else is doing it.
[01:48:55] People don't like to say that because that means I'm responsible for it.
[01:48:59] People like to take ownership of things.
[01:49:01] I have a book called Extreme Ownership.
[01:49:04] People don't like to take ownership of things.
[01:49:06] Instead they want to say, as soon as I blame something on my boss and this is one of
[01:49:09] the big things in extreme ownership leading up the chain of command, it's so easy to blame
[01:49:13] your boss.
[01:49:14] Because how can I control my boss?
[01:49:16] I was following orders.
[01:49:17] I was following orders, boss.
[01:49:18] What do we do?
[01:49:19] That's why we failed to mission.
[01:49:20] I was told to do this.
[01:49:21] Either you can give me the right gear.
[01:49:22] That's what we hear this all the time.
[01:49:24] And Milgram says it too.
[01:49:26] No one wants to say, hey, you know what?
[01:49:27] I decided I was just going to do whatever one else was doing.
[01:49:30] That's my decision.
[01:49:31] Instead they put that decision on the other guy on the boss man.
[01:49:35] Another exploration here, back to the book, Direct Proximity to the horror of killing
[01:49:43] significantly increased the number of men who would no longer comply on the other hand
[01:49:49] with the division of labor and removal of the killing process to the death camps, the
[01:49:53] men felt scarcely any responsibility for their actions.
[01:49:57] Same thing, Milgram figured out.
[01:49:58] I got someone else that's pressing the button over there that's shocking you.
[01:50:01] I'm good with it.
[01:50:02] Keep rolling.
[01:50:05] Now one thing that Milgram kind of talks about is his kind of indoctrination or what kind
[01:50:13] of ideological justification did he give to his people?
[01:50:17] That's really just pre-existing in Milgram's experiences or just kind of normal people.
[01:50:21] So what about with the Nazis?
[01:50:23] And what kind of indoctrination did they get brainwashed?
[01:50:26] Right?
[01:50:28] We've talked about this a little bit already, but back to the book, all order police
[01:50:32] battalions were to be strengthened in character and ideology.
[01:50:37] One topic for the first week, they went through like a school in education, ideological
[01:50:40] education, one topic for the first week was race as the basis of our world view, followed
[01:50:46] by the second week, maintaining the purity of blood.
[01:50:52] So there you go.
[01:50:54] These guys are being indoctrinated, but the reason that argument doesn't really hold
[01:51:00] much weight is because of the way the who the people were and back to the book.
[01:51:05] Whatever the merits of such an argument, it clearly does not hold for the predominantly
[01:51:09] middle-aged men of reserve, police battalion 101.
[01:51:13] They were educated and spent their formative years in the pre-1933 period.
[01:51:19] Many came from a social malu that was relatively unreceptive to national socialism.
[01:51:25] They were, they knew perfectly well the moral norms of German society before the Nazis.
[01:51:29] So you can't really blame it on them being brainwashed.
[01:51:36] So here's how Browning wraps up this book.
[01:51:44] I'm going to close it out.
[01:51:47] The behavior of any human being is of course a very complex phenomenon and the historian
[01:51:53] who attempts to explain it is indulging in a certain arrogance.
[01:51:59] When nearly 500 men are involved to undertake any general explanation of their collective behavior
[01:52:07] is even more hazardous.
[01:52:10] What then is one to conclude?
[01:52:13] Most of all one comes away from the story of reserve police battalion 101 with a great
[01:52:20] unease.
[01:52:22] This story of ordinary men is not the story of all men.
[01:52:26] The reserve policemen faced choices and most of them committed terrible deeds.
[01:52:34] But those who killed cannot be absolved by the notion that anyone in the same situation
[01:52:39] would have done as they did for even among them some refused to kill and others stopped
[01:52:45] killing.
[01:52:48] Human responsibility is ultimately an individual matter.
[01:52:54] At the same time, however, the collective behavior of reserve police battalion 101 has
[01:53:00] deeply disturbing implications.
[01:53:04] There are many societies afflicted by traditions of racism and caught in the siege mentality
[01:53:13] of war or threat of war.
[01:53:17] Everywhere, society conditions people to respect and defer to authority and indeed could
[01:53:24] scarcely function otherwise.
[01:53:27] Everywhere people seek career advancement.
[01:53:32] In every modern society the complexity of life and the resulting bureaucratization and specialization
[01:53:40] attenuate the sense of personal responsibility of those implementing official policy.
[01:53:49] With in virtually every social collective, the peer group exerts tremendous pressures on
[01:53:55] behavior and sets moral norms.
[01:54:02] If the men of reserve police battalion 101 could become killers under such circumstances,
[01:54:11] what group of men cannot.
[01:54:22] There you have it and I think those are some extremely important warnings that are
[01:54:32] laid out there.
[01:54:34] Obviously, the first one we have to be aware of traditions of racism and the threat of war.
[01:54:44] I think those are pretty obvious and stand out pretty clearly.
[01:54:49] I think the other ones are a little bit trickier.
[01:54:54] I think we've got to watch out the fact that we are conditioned to respect and defer to authority.
[01:55:03] I said to that no.
[01:55:05] I actually, when I grew up, I was a rebellious kid and I listened to rebellious music and I
[01:55:16] was a rebellious kid.
[01:55:18] I talk about that.
[01:55:19] And I think that was very beneficial for me in my military career.
[01:55:26] And I explained that whole time that I asked questions.
[01:55:30] If I don't believe in something, I'm going to ask questions.
[01:55:31] And by the way, I don't, I want the people that work for me or with me.
[01:55:37] I want them to ask questions too.
[01:55:39] I don't want to be surrounded by Yesmen.
[01:55:41] And I'm not going to be Yesmen.
[01:55:42] Never was.
[01:55:43] I don't mean, let me caveat that.
[01:55:47] I never was.
[01:55:50] You've got to be a Yesman in order to get the inner circle where you can actually have influence.
[01:55:54] So have I played that game before?
[01:55:56] Yes I have.
[01:55:57] Yeah boss, that sounds like good plan.
[01:55:59] Yeah boss, yeah.
[01:56:00] It sounds good plan.
[01:56:01] Oh, I trust chocolate.
[01:56:02] He agrees with me all the time.
[01:56:03] Hey boss, you're going off the rails over here.
[01:56:05] He's stopped it.
[01:56:06] Oh, I'm going to listen to chocolate because he listens to me.
[01:56:08] So have I played that game before?
[01:56:10] Yes, of course I have.
[01:56:12] So we need to be careful that we don't submit always to authority.
[01:56:18] It's a hard thing to raise your kids with too, right?
[01:56:21] Because you want your kids to submit to your authority, but you don't want them to.
[01:56:26] I have to always remind myself when they rebel against me.
[01:56:29] I have to say to myself, good.
[01:56:33] Because I want them to ask questions.
[01:56:34] I want them to question authority.
[01:56:36] I don't want them to just obey.
[01:56:37] Right.
[01:56:38] And that freaks people out.
[01:56:40] It freaks people out when you say, you know, I'll go and work with a company and I'll
[01:56:44] be saying like, no, I want your people.
[01:56:45] You want your people to ask questions.
[01:56:48] If you want to just order them around and they're just going to obey you, first of all,
[01:56:53] I'm not going to help you there because that's not a system that's functional.
[01:56:57] It'll be functional for a week.
[01:56:58] It'll be functional for two weeks.
[01:57:00] But eventually you'll have people that don't understand why they're doing what they're
[01:57:03] doing.
[01:57:04] They don't put their effort to it.
[01:57:05] They can't make decisions on their own and you end up with a bad team.
[01:57:07] Yeah.
[01:57:08] We don't want that kind of authoritarian leadership anywhere.
[01:57:13] And certainly not anywhere.
[01:57:16] Again, it does it work for five minutes.
[01:57:18] Does it work for a week?
[01:57:19] Yeah.
[01:57:20] Sometimes needed because people got to get something done right now.
[01:57:24] Yeah.
[01:57:25] But you better fall that up with some non-authoritarian leadership with explaining and building
[01:57:29] relationships with people.
[01:57:31] Yeah.
[01:57:32] That explanation thing they just talked about all the time.
[01:57:35] We're explaining why.
[01:57:36] Yeah.
[01:57:37] Explain why I'm telling you to do this.
[01:57:38] It's important because of this, the XYZ.
[01:57:40] Man, and I'm speaking from a perspective of being a parent.
[01:57:45] How effective that is.
[01:57:47] You just say, this is why you're doing this.
[01:57:49] That's effective.
[01:57:50] How old is your daughter now?
[01:57:51] Yeah.
[01:57:52] It's already effective for the four-year-old.
[01:57:54] Yeah.
[01:57:55] And even in the past few years, you can't always rationalize it for your old.
[01:57:57] Sometimes they just want that cookie.
[01:57:59] Yeah.
[01:58:00] And there's no why about it.
[01:58:01] It was strangely with the, we have situation right now where her cousin is in.
[01:58:06] And you know, he put in a nutshell, his diet isn't quite as-
[01:58:13] She's not on the, he's not on the pro-proper.
[01:58:14] He's not on the pro-proper.
[01:58:15] I'm like, how my daughter is in the pro-program.
[01:58:18] But you know, he'll eat junk food or whatever, right?
[01:58:22] And it's kind of part of the experience I understand where, you know, hey, cousin's in
[01:58:26] from how to tell and it's a little bit more festive than the news and it's, yeah.
[01:58:29] So after a while, I started realizing like, cousin showed up at my house.
[01:58:33] You get on the pro-program.
[01:58:35] It should be like that.
[01:58:37] So after a while, I was like, hey, you know, we, there's too many treats going on these days.
[01:58:43] You know, I have to have a little bit.
[01:58:45] I have to have a little bit.
[01:58:47] And so when I told my daughter, I was like, no, you know, we're not going to do this.
[01:58:51] And I explained why.
[01:58:52] You could tell she didn't, she wasn't happy with it, but she totally understood four
[01:58:56] years old where, and I didn't in a way where it wasn't like-
[01:59:00] Is you reference where the warrior get away with it?
[01:59:03] Yeah, always too. She was wearing that shirt to school today too, by the way.
[01:59:06] Well, then that's it.
[01:59:07] Coincidentally, he went right there using one of you.
[01:59:10] But it was, it, what, I didn't scare her.
[01:59:13] You know, I didn't, I wasn't like, oh, then you're going to be a loser or something.
[01:59:17] You know, something like that.
[01:59:18] Are you my kids to say to each other?
[01:59:19] Oh, you might as well just go ahead and volunteer for type two diabetes.
[01:59:23] Yeah, they get crazy.
[01:59:24] I know, I know, I know, I know from-
[01:59:26] Yeah, I know exactly where they went there.
[01:59:29] But it was just the kind, you know, like where my older kids do it to my younger daughter.
[01:59:33] Yeah, yeah.
[01:59:34] You're going to get type two diabetes.
[01:59:35] The peer pressure.
[01:59:36] She's all like, she thinks she's going to get it today.
[01:59:39] Yeah, that's messed up.
[01:59:40] You know, it is messed up.
[01:59:42] Effective, we're ineffective, though.
[01:59:43] Right.
[01:59:44] That's your thing.
[01:59:45] Sure.
[01:59:46] No, but it, you know, the point being it is, it is effective.
[01:59:49] It's, I mean, get, you know, like how you say too, you don't have to be a dick about it.
[01:59:53] It's not a scolding.
[01:59:54] It's not nothing like that.
[01:59:56] It's a full-on-experting.
[01:59:57] She actually understood-
[01:59:58] Actually contrary to that, it's the other end of the spectrum.
[02:00:01] Yeah.
[02:00:02] I'm talking to you is because I care about you so much that I want you to be healthy.
[02:00:07] Yeah.
[02:00:08] That's the one that reason I'm talking to you.
[02:00:10] Yeah, we can't.
[02:00:11] You'd like your parents to say that.
[02:00:12] Say those exact words.
[02:00:13] I do this because I care about you.
[02:00:14] Meanwhile, they're yelling at you.
[02:00:15] Yeah, it's the same.
[02:00:16] Thank you.
[02:00:17] And employers do it.
[02:00:18] Two bosses do that, too.
[02:00:19] Don't just bring it over.
[02:00:20] Yeah, no, the first thing they do is they want to jump down someone throat.
[02:00:23] Yeah.
[02:00:24] And then everyone's reactions the same to that.
[02:00:25] Yeah.
[02:00:26] And one likes it.
[02:00:27] No one likes it.
[02:00:28] Whereas if you take a different approach and you say, hey, echo.
[02:00:32] You don't want him talking to you right now.
[02:00:33] It's not because I'm mad at you.
[02:00:35] It's because I'm actually I see nothing but potential with you.
[02:00:38] Yeah.
[02:00:39] That's what I see.
[02:00:40] And when I see that you're not making, you're not making many videos.
[02:00:44] It's not because I'm thinking myself, oh, I want more videos.
[02:00:48] The reason I'm thinking this is because I actually see how much potential you have.
[02:00:52] And you could really do some powerful stuff and have some huge influence.
[02:00:56] But you're just all right, Jaco.
[02:00:59] As opposed to you better make more videos or else I'm going to have my kid do it.
[02:01:06] Will you be lazy, bro?
[02:01:08] Exactly.
[02:01:09] Then you'd be like, fine, I think I could do that.
[02:01:10] We'll be as good as my kids.
[02:01:11] Yeah, exactly.
[02:01:12] So that's not the game we're playing here.
[02:01:14] Yeah.
[02:01:15] I do see a lot of potential in you.
[02:01:16] And I think you could make more videos.
[02:01:18] Thank you.
[02:01:19] So much.
[02:01:20] So you got to watch out for obeying authority.
[02:01:25] Question authority all the time.
[02:01:29] And you've, then he talks about people seeking career advancement.
[02:01:34] There's another big one.
[02:01:36] And there's another big one I say no to.
[02:01:39] Right?
[02:01:40] There's such a much better way to get career advancement.
[02:01:44] And that is by doing a good job.
[02:01:46] Yeah.
[02:01:47] That's how you get career advancement.
[02:01:49] By instead of seeking career advancement, seek to do a good job, seek to make a difference.
[02:01:53] And then you need to seek to do what is right.
[02:01:55] The career is going to come in one form of the other.
[02:01:57] Now, might you get past up?
[02:02:01] Might some other guy that two to his own horn and took the credit.
[02:02:04] Might that happen?
[02:02:05] Yes, it might happen.
[02:02:07] You might, you might get delayed.
[02:02:09] But that guy's going to continue to build that reputation.
[02:02:12] And the boss is misted on the first round of advancements.
[02:02:15] So he got it.
[02:02:16] Yeah.
[02:02:17] Maybe he even gets the second round.
[02:02:18] By the third round, they're looking at him going.
[02:02:20] This guy's a self-serving loser.
[02:02:22] We need to get him off the team.
[02:02:24] And by the way, we've realized that the guy that's been behind all this work is echo over there.
[02:02:28] So we're going to promote him now.
[02:02:30] Now you're going to win.
[02:02:31] Now you've got a really solid reputation.
[02:02:33] So you can't, but the idea of seeking career advancement.
[02:02:37] You see that in the military all the time.
[02:02:38] There's people that are just trying to get advanced trying to get advanced trying to get them.
[02:02:41] Who's back?
[02:02:42] They're stepping on.
[02:02:43] And I'm telling you, I saw some of those guys get advanced.
[02:02:45] In my community, they advanced up through the ranks.
[02:02:48] They were stepping on people's backs to get there.
[02:02:50] The reputation eventually was so bad that it didn't get them propellant.
[02:02:53] They didn't propell as far as they wanted to.
[02:02:55] They look great guys.
[02:02:56] The guys that were really truly just trying to do the best for the community.
[02:03:00] Those guys got promoted and they would make it.
[02:03:02] You know, the furthest because their reputation was so solid.
[02:03:07] And everyone knew that these guys were doing the right things.
[02:03:09] So the right reason.
[02:03:10] Not so they could get promoted, but they ended up getting promoted.
[02:03:13] Yeah.
[02:03:14] Yeah.
[02:03:14] Promotions more like a eventuality.
[02:03:18] Yeah, it's eventuality.
[02:03:19] Yeah.
[02:03:20] It's just like you did, too.
[02:03:21] If you're just trying to get your belt.
[02:03:22] Yeah.
[02:03:23] And that's what you're trying to prove.
[02:03:24] That's not going to work out well for you.
[02:03:25] Getting mad when they're getting promoted.
[02:03:26] You might get your boot belt before some other white belt because you're showing off all the time.
[02:03:31] But eventually you're showing off all the time.
[02:03:33] Yeah.
[02:03:34] And the coach goes, hey, man, why don't you help everyone?
[02:03:36] Or the coach goes, hey, I see you're tapping a lot of people out.
[02:03:39] That are the same level as you all the time, but you're not going to anyone that's
[02:03:41] harder than you because you want to prove to me that you're tapping everyone out.
[02:03:43] Long move.
[02:03:44] You know what?
[02:03:45] You might see sometimes.
[02:03:46] You know, like, you know, when you come up through the jujitsu ranks, you just, you just
[02:03:51] find a certain move or handful of moves and you just, those moves, you get better out of
[02:03:56] quicker than other.
[02:03:57] Yeah, I think we all kind of are in one way or another.
[02:04:01] And so this is what, if you're pursuing the belt, this is what you do.
[02:04:06] And then instructors around.
[02:04:07] Only do your good moves.
[02:04:09] You want to look good.
[02:04:10] Yeah, you want to look good.
[02:04:11] That's all you do.
[02:04:12] You know.
[02:04:13] You do, and when you say it'll show itself later, you know, so what can happen is you get
[02:04:20] your blue belt.
[02:04:21] You get your purple belt because like you show off to your instructors or whatever.
[02:04:24] And in the tournament's too.
[02:04:25] I don't realize I just realize something about myself.
[02:04:28] I just had to be the awakening.
[02:04:30] But what will happen is later on, you ever get, okay, so this might, it might have been
[02:04:36] a long time for you, but maybe not.
[02:04:38] So, okay, so I'm taking, I'm training with,
[02:04:42] I'm sorry, I went to class Jeff Glovers teaching in class and Jeff Glovers like, hey, let's do this.
[02:04:47] And he does some crazy kind of advanced move.
[02:04:50] But it takes like, if you're an advanced person, you know how to, you know how to move your body and
[02:04:54] you get to kind of in an advanced way.
[02:04:56] You can do the move even though you've never done the move before.
[02:04:59] You know, that kind of what so is that kind of move is one where you got to like go
[02:05:02] between the guys like lift up into, you know, heal hook or whatever like last you choose.
[02:05:07] So, I don't do that move at all.
[02:05:10] And I've been training, I've been in this game for a long time.
[02:05:12] So, I go and I do it and I don't want to say I was surprised, but like I could do it.
[02:05:18] I could totally, but Jeff was like, oh, kind of like dang, because I'm bigger guy too, you know.
[02:05:23] And that made me think of this kind of thing where some guys, they can be a black belt.
[02:05:28] And they'll say, hey, show this move real quick and it'll be a black belt and they can't do it.
[02:05:32] Because they've avoided that.
[02:05:34] And not to say that this is the case all the time, I'm just saying that's like an example
[02:05:38] of how you can avoid getting better and only show off like XYZ to get you to that kind of next specific level.
[02:05:47] Yeah, I don't know.
[02:05:48] I don't know.
[02:05:49] This is a similar thing, maybe, but I realize when you were talking about this, what I'll do is both with Dean and with Jeff.
[02:05:59] If I do, if I'm doing something that they showed me, I'll like, I'll like call him out like a little kid.
[02:06:05] I'll be like, yeah, I mean, take this out.
[02:06:08] Yeah, yeah, I'd be like, oh, are you like that one?
[02:06:11] Yeah, I know how to do it with Dean with my kids.
[02:06:15] When my kids are training, you know, I'll say 18, 18, check.
[02:06:19] Oh, look at that.
[02:06:20] Look at that.
[02:06:21] He's going to get it.
[02:06:22] You know what I mean?
[02:06:22] Kind of like, I'll happy.
[02:06:23] Yeah, I guess I'm just happy that I'm learning or that they're learning.
[02:06:26] Yeah, that's too.
[02:06:27] But it's pretty cool when you can pull off what you just learned, right?
[02:06:30] Yeah, that's what it is.
[02:06:31] And it's cool for a teacher.
[02:06:32] I was, I'm still going to someone who does something that I showed them.
[02:06:34] Big time.
[02:06:35] So I guess the difference is, if in fact this is even the difference,
[02:06:39] is why did you do that?
[02:06:41] It's not to get your kid promoted.
[02:06:43] Yeah, it's not even to get me promoted because I can't get promoted right now.
[02:06:48] So I guess it's sort of like, maybe maybe the negative aspect would be like,
[02:06:54] I'm looking for some credit for pulling off of the move, the little guy move,
[02:06:58] totally different.
[02:06:59] I don't think it's, I think it's pretty bad.
[02:07:02] I think I'm pretty late for that.
[02:07:04] Yeah, so watch out for that, watch out for the career advancement.
[02:07:11] Don't let that be the folks your wife, man.
[02:07:13] It's gone.
[02:07:14] It's not going to make you, it's not going to get you what you want to, again,
[02:07:18] are there instances where you play the game so that you can move up so that you can have more control.
[02:07:24] Yes, I did that.
[02:07:25] I look, I went from in Lested Officer that's the ultimate in, hey, I'm going to play the game.
[02:07:30] I'm going to get more, I want to be in charge more stuff.
[02:07:32] So how am I going to do that?
[02:07:33] I'm going to skip all these ranks.
[02:07:34] I'm going to come in Officer.
[02:07:35] I did that.
[02:07:36] Yeah.
[02:07:36] I played that game.
[02:07:38] I was about my career.
[02:07:40] But I was about my career so I could make, you know, 15 guys in the soup to an happy.
[02:07:45] Yeah.
[02:07:46] Because I was happy when I had a good leader in my soup, too.
[02:07:49] Um, the other one he talks about here is this bureaucratization,
[02:07:55] and specialization, attenuating the sense of personal responsibility.
[02:08:01] This is another thing that we have to be careful of.
[02:08:05] Just because you're part of a system doesn't mean you should just, you know,
[02:08:11] blame the system when something goes wrong.
[02:08:13] You know, if you're working somewhere and something isn't going, hey, that's the way we do it.
[02:08:16] That's the way the system works.
[02:08:18] We can't change that.
[02:08:19] I never accepted that as an answer.
[02:08:21] And I'll tell you what.
[02:08:23] But the when you come up against that, you can't, the way you fight it when you come up against it is you build a relationship.
[02:08:32] Yeah.
[02:08:33] Right.
[02:08:33] So any, you ever, you ever have, you're trying to deal with some customer service or something.
[02:08:40] And you're getting the sorry, you can't help you.
[02:08:43] Yeah.
[02:08:44] And you go down to the starting like, hey, what's going on?
[02:08:47] I built, I'm a jockelman.
[02:08:49] I called you earlier.
[02:08:50] I just, I got to get this thing resolved here.
[02:08:52] And you know, you don't, you don't go down there and say, you need to take care of this.
[02:08:55] No, you say, hey, Bill, what's going on?
[02:08:57] Hey, I'm jockel.
[02:08:58] Yeah, man, I really like the piece of gear, but man, it worked good.
[02:09:02] There was a couple of issues I had with him.
[02:09:04] I'm trying to get him resolved because, you know, my daughters birthdays in two weeks.
[02:09:07] And I need that.
[02:09:08] You know what I mean?
[02:09:09] Yeah.
[02:09:10] Yeah.
[02:09:10] Let's get the bureaucratic.
[02:09:12] Don't let them stay in their big bureaucratic system.
[02:09:15] Yeah.
[02:09:16] We don't want to let that happen because then the, then the bureaucratic machine, then they're not.
[02:09:20] They're not the ones that are fending you.
[02:09:22] It's the machine.
[02:09:23] They can't control the machine.
[02:09:24] It's not the machine.
[02:09:25] There's part of the machine.
[02:09:26] You want to, you know, this concept fundamentally is the same as this.
[02:09:30] You know, when you're in traffic, you know, and you're trying to get over.
[02:09:33] Yeah.
[02:09:34] Yeah.
[02:09:35] Yeah.
[02:09:36] And you want to get in the lane, but, you know, from the other guys perspective or the other cars perspective,
[02:09:41] this car is trying to cut me off, this car.
[02:09:44] This car is going to get in my way, right?
[02:09:46] But you get your whoever you're riding with, all you got to get them rolled down the window.
[02:09:51] Make eye contact with a person and be like, hey, just wave out on something.
[02:09:55] Look, I'm a person, you're a person.
[02:09:57] Yeah.
[02:09:58] We're not standing in line.
[02:09:59] We're not standing in line.
[02:10:00] We're just, we're not going the same.
[02:10:01] Wow.
[02:10:02] That's what you feel.
[02:10:03] Yeah.
[02:10:03] You just give them that hint of a personal element.
[02:10:06] I'll let you write in the wave you in.
[02:10:08] Yeah.
[02:10:09] You wave back.
[02:10:09] You guys are friends that and before, give me my two seconds before that you're pissed.
[02:10:13] Yeah.
[02:10:14] This guy's about to get in front of me and there's no reason to be mad about that.
[02:10:17] By the way, it's not like you're sitting in the lane.
[02:10:18] You get there.
[02:10:19] Yeah.
[02:10:20] He's got to be somewhere, too.
[02:10:21] You're in the same direction.
[02:10:22] In the rush.
[02:10:23] Yeah.
[02:10:24] But you got to put it on your deal.
[02:10:26] Same thing, step out of the machine, man.
[02:10:28] The machine of trust step out.
[02:10:29] Hey, I'm a person, your person.
[02:10:30] Yes.
[02:10:31] Make the personal relationships up and down the chain of command throughout your company.
[02:10:34] Don't let the finance department, right?
[02:10:38] Yeah.
[02:10:39] The department, the policy.
[02:10:40] The finance department shut us down on this thing.
[02:10:42] Yeah.
[02:10:43] Who did that?
[02:10:44] I'm going to walk around there and say, yeah, see what happened.
[02:10:46] The marketing department won't give us any more.
[02:10:48] Okay.
[02:10:49] Cool.
[02:10:50] Let's find out who that is.
[02:10:51] It's not a bureaucratic, but it's not a marketing department.
[02:10:53] No, it's a machine.
[02:10:54] No, it's built.
[02:10:55] Builds in there.
[02:10:56] And when you, when Bill knows what you're trying to do, I know that you are trying to make something happen.
[02:11:01] You make that connection.
[02:11:02] And we're good to go.
[02:11:03] Bill's going to take care of you.
[02:11:04] No reason to freak out.
[02:11:06] The other thing, finally, here is this idea of this peer group, this social collect.
[02:11:12] A social collective peer pressure.
[02:11:15] We all know it exists and that's fine, but make it good.
[02:11:20] Right?
[02:11:21] Peer pressure is powerful.
[02:11:22] It's powerful.
[02:11:23] And the good thing is you get to control it in both directions.
[02:11:27] You need to recognize it when it's happening.
[02:11:28] You in a negative way.
[02:11:30] And then you need to use it in a positive way to help people do good things.
[02:11:37] Use peer pressure.
[02:11:38] Peer pressure is legit for making people do positive things.
[02:11:42] What you don't want to do is use peer pressure to make people do negative things.
[02:11:46] And there's a lot of that in the world.
[02:11:49] Then I'll tell you why there's a certain part of people that don't like to see other people succeed.
[02:11:54] Yeah.
[02:11:55] So they go, man, just come out tonight, dude.
[02:11:57] But dude, I've got to work in the morning.
[02:11:59] Dude, just come out.
[02:12:00] We're just going to get a couple of drinks.
[02:12:01] Yeah.
[02:12:02] Here's another one.
[02:12:03] Let's do a shot.
[02:12:04] You're always on that diet.
[02:12:05] Yeah.
[02:12:06] Hey, loosen up.
[02:12:07] Yeah, they want to see that.
[02:12:08] There's a certain part of people that want to see everyone else fail.
[02:12:15] Yeah.
[02:12:16] And if you've got to pay attention at yourself.
[02:12:18] Yes.
[02:12:19] You've got to pay attention at that in your own self.
[02:12:21] Because if you don't, you won't realize it.
[02:12:24] Yeah.
[02:12:25] But you're actually, I've seen people give other people bad advice because they're jealous.
[02:12:30] They're jealous.
[02:12:31] So in programs, I see the good thing about a friend of mine was going for a certain program in the military.
[02:12:36] And he came to me and he said, man, I was going to try this program.
[02:12:40] But a couple of guys were telling me I shouldn't.
[02:12:42] And I said, bro, that is the dumbest thing I've ever heard.
[02:12:46] They are jealous.
[02:12:47] They are jealous.
[02:12:48] They don't want you to do this program because it's going to make you more successful.
[02:12:51] Go do the program.
[02:12:52] And he said, okay.
[02:12:54] And he did it.
[02:12:56] Jockel peer pressure.
[02:12:57] Yeah.
[02:12:58] That's, I want to give peer pressure of goodness.
[02:13:00] You have a badness.
[02:13:01] And the thing is, I mean, I guess you could look at peer pressure in a way.
[02:13:05] In a way is, it's leadership.
[02:13:08] Whether you're standing up to it or whether you're spreading the positive peer pressure
[02:13:13] and that's leadership.
[02:13:14] And that's what we're here to do, man.
[02:13:16] We're here to do.
[02:13:17] We're here to lead.
[02:13:18] And when you use that in a positive way, you can prevent this kind of,
[02:13:24] it's kind of sick, sadistic, horrible horrific events like this.
[02:13:31] Like we read about today from happening in the midst of this.
[02:13:34] It's crazy that this occurred.
[02:13:37] Yeah.
[02:13:38] And it's crazy that it, you know, even even throughout the book and it, it's just referring to the Jews,
[02:13:49] right?
[02:13:50] It's just referring to the Jews.
[02:13:52] The Jews, the Jews lined up, the Jews laid down, the Jews got shot in the back of the neck.
[02:13:58] The Jews, the Jews, the Jews.
[02:14:01] Let's remember that every single one of those Jews was a name, was a person, right?
[02:14:08] Was Bill was, you know, we do the same thing.
[02:14:12] We're putting them in a sort of big chunk of machinery that they're just, they're part of the product of what's happening over here.
[02:14:19] And yeah, don't do it on either side.
[02:14:24] Yeah.
[02:14:25] Don't let it happen on either side.
[02:14:26] Don't let it happen on your life.
[02:14:29] Don't do it.
[02:14:34] That's what leadership is about.
[02:14:36] It really is.
[02:14:37] And leadership, the thing about leadership is leadership is happening at all times.
[02:14:44] The minute you are interacting with another person, leadership is taking place.
[02:14:49] You're either being led, which is fine, or you're leading, which is fine.
[02:14:53] As long as you're going in the right direction.
[02:14:56] But if you constantly think, and you're leading yourself by the way, of course, you're leading yourself.
[02:15:01] You're constantly leading yourself.
[02:15:03] But the minute you meet with someone else, there's a leadership situation happening.
[02:15:07] Either leading that person or you're being led.
[02:15:11] And that's okay.
[02:15:12] It's okay to be led, as long as you're being led in the right direction.
[02:15:14] If you start seeing yourself being led in the wrong direction and you go with it, you're at fault.
[02:15:19] You're at fault.
[02:15:20] You can't blame that person.
[02:15:22] You went along with it.
[02:15:24] You're culpable for your actions.
[02:15:29] So, again, I know it's a brutal topic to cover.
[02:15:33] And I'm sure we'll be back at it again at some point.
[02:15:38] But let's not forget that this happened.
[02:15:44] And that if we're not careful, it can happen again.
[02:15:49] And you get little things like in way, lower levels.
[02:15:54] That stuff happens all the time.
[02:15:55] You know, like little riots break out, normal people destroying cars.
[02:15:59] Because that's kind of what everyone's doing.
[02:16:02] You know, don't want guys like, hey stop.
[02:16:04] We're going to stop.
[02:16:05] We're like, okay, let me stop.
[02:16:07] Yeah.
[02:16:08] The peer pressure thing, that's why people, you get to work out, buddy.
[02:16:13] Or you join.
[02:16:16] That's like CrossFit.
[02:16:21] Because everyone's like, hey, yeah, you know, like the true you want.
[02:16:24] And you can't, in a way, you look forward to just linking up with the group.
[02:16:27] And the group's talking about like, you know, doing good stuff.
[02:16:30] Yeah, working out.
[02:16:31] And you're right.
[02:16:32] And as a matter of fact, there's our whole new phenomenon in the fitness world,
[02:16:37] which is basically all stems from CrossFit.
[02:16:40] And they call it just group exercise.
[02:16:42] Right.
[02:16:42] Yeah.
[02:16:43] Hey, we got group exercise.
[02:16:44] Yeah, group exercise classes.
[02:16:45] Because, hey, I want to work out with other people.
[02:16:47] I want to have, you know, echo call me up.
[02:16:49] Me, okay, you're going to make it to class tonight.
[02:16:50] Yeah.
[02:16:51] I'm kind of feeling lazy.
[02:16:52] Come on, bro.
[02:16:53] Yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm going.
[02:16:54] Yeah.
[02:16:55] Oh, okay.
[02:16:56] I don't want to be weak.
[02:16:57] Yeah, yeah.
[02:16:57] You know, you're pressing me to be strong.
[02:16:58] That's good.
[02:16:59] Yep.
[02:17:00] True story.
[02:17:01] So, you use that in a positive way.
[02:17:05] Yeah, you ever, you ever been, well, you probably,
[02:17:08] oh, yeah, you probably have come on.
[02:17:10] We can be honest here.
[02:17:11] You know, the kind where you're like, okay,
[02:17:14] I'm going to link up with whoever to go train or to go work out of whatever.
[02:17:18] And you're like, dang, I don't really want to.
[02:17:20] One of the time comes.
[02:17:21] You're like, dang, I don't really feel like it.
[02:17:23] I, in the back of my mind, I hope that they call in cancel.
[02:17:27] I hope.
[02:17:28] And then they call, they don't cancel.
[02:17:31] They call to confirm.
[02:17:33] And you go.
[02:17:34] You didn't want to go.
[02:17:35] You go.
[02:17:36] At the end of the work, I, you're like, dang, I almost didn't,
[02:17:39] I almost didn't make it to the good thing, you know?
[02:17:41] That's common, man.
[02:17:42] It is.
[02:17:43] I don't tell you people asked me about this a lot.
[02:17:45] You've got to recognize, you got to start to memorize that good feeling that comes after a good workout.
[02:17:51] Yeah.
[02:17:52] So that you don't have to force yourself through it in anticipation.
[02:17:56] Such a good way to put it.
[02:17:57] To memorize the feeling.
[02:17:59] Memorize the feeling of like, I memorize two feelings.
[02:18:02] One is, I memorize how good it feels when you're done.
[02:18:05] Yeah.
[02:18:06] And two, I memorize how bad it feels when you're weak.
[02:18:08] Yeah.
[02:18:09] And you say, no.
[02:18:10] Yeah.
[02:18:11] I hate that feeling.
[02:18:12] I hate that feeling of like, I didn't do it.
[02:18:16] Yeah.
[02:18:17] It makes me feel like junk.
[02:18:19] Junk.
[02:18:20] I was just on the road.
[02:18:23] And it was like, it don't do it.
[02:18:26] I just feel like, man, I squeezed in a couple of workouts at night.
[02:18:29] Pretty weak workouts, but just to get them done.
[02:18:31] You know what I mean?
[02:18:32] Just to move.
[02:18:33] Yeah.
[02:18:34] The worst thing you can do is be sedentary.
[02:18:35] Yeah.
[02:18:36] And I was moving during the day because we were in the water and whatnot.
[02:18:39] Yeah.
[02:18:40] That's a little bit different.
[02:18:41] Yeah.
[02:18:42] But you got to get it done.
[02:18:44] Yeah.
[02:18:45] So memorize the feeling.
[02:18:46] So there's nothing worse than the feeling of I slept in.
[02:18:49] Well, why does that?
[02:18:51] I don't understand these for you.
[02:18:52] That's probably the wrong statement.
[02:18:54] I don't like the feeling of I slept in and now I'm behind the power curve.
[02:18:58] Yeah.
[02:18:59] That's the feeling.
[02:19:00] Yeah.
[02:19:01] Memorize that feeling.
[02:19:02] Yeah.
[02:19:03] And then run from it.
[02:19:05] Speaking of memorize.
[02:19:06] You're going to go over everything that everyone just memorized.
[02:19:09] I think at this point where you talk about how they can sport the podcast.
[02:19:12] Sure.
[02:19:13] Actually, I'm going to go in and in.
[02:19:14] Yeah.
[02:19:15] I'm going to go in at a different angle.
[02:19:16] I'm going to say speaking of peer pressure.
[02:19:20] Because this is really what it is.
[02:19:22] The group.
[02:19:23] You peer pressure.
[02:19:24] Me, you peer pressure.
[02:19:25] We collectively peer pressure each other.
[02:19:28] And this is what we're doing.
[02:19:29] We're working out.
[02:19:30] There's no reason not to work out today.
[02:19:32] Nowadays.
[02:19:33] Not to mean this day today.
[02:19:34] Today could be your rest day.
[02:19:35] But you should work out today too.
[02:19:36] You should have.
[02:19:37] Yes.
[02:19:38] Later even if you haven't already.
[02:19:40] Anyway.
[02:19:41] This is what we're doing.
[02:19:43] We're working out.
[02:19:44] Yes.
[02:19:45] If we have weight to lose, we know if we're overweight.
[02:19:48] We do.
[02:19:49] Even if we're like five pounds overweight.
[02:19:51] Think of like your ideal weight.
[02:19:53] Think of that.
[02:19:54] If you're not that.
[02:19:55] 150 pounds.
[02:19:56] That's my idea.
[02:19:58] When you roll to someone that's massive.
[02:20:01] Yeah.
[02:20:02] And you think by which I was this massive.
[02:20:05] I wish I was, you know, 450 pounds because then you just smash everyone.
[02:20:10] Yeah.
[02:20:11] But that might get in the way.
[02:20:13] You know, other aspects of life.
[02:20:15] Like if you're 450 pounds, that would mean what?
[02:20:18] How tall? Like what? 68.
[02:20:19] No.
[02:20:20] I would want to be like eight foot nine.
[02:20:22] Yeah.
[02:20:23] Okay.
[02:20:23] So surfing is going to be an issue for you.
[02:20:25] Oh, yes.
[02:20:26] So, okay.
[02:20:27] So to kind of say goodbye to your current knowledge or your current schema.
[02:20:30] A surfer.
[02:20:31] Say goodbye to that.
[02:20:32] Good point.
[02:20:33] Good point.
[02:20:34] There's other things.
[02:20:35] So you're just thinking, you just do I understand?
[02:20:37] Just you're in an end just MMA.
[02:20:39] Or maybe out of the weight classes though.
[02:20:41] Yeah.
[02:20:42] Yeah.
[02:20:42] So you'd have to fight in these weird.
[02:20:44] We're talking about the future.
[02:20:45] I'm just going to be a big picture.
[02:20:46] I'll just be what I am.
[02:20:48] Actually, you know what about seven.
[02:20:50] If you go about do you, bro.
[02:20:52] If you want to be that big.
[02:20:53] That's your ideal weight.
[02:20:54] You go with that.
[02:20:55] 750 pounds.
[02:20:56] Yeah.
[02:20:57] And that's really the point.
[02:20:59] The point is you know your ideal weight.
[02:21:00] You do not me.
[02:21:01] You know.
[02:21:02] I don't have an ideal weight free.
[02:21:03] You may be I do, but it has to be my ideal.
[02:21:05] You want me to win.
[02:21:06] I want to win.
[02:21:07] I want to win.
[02:21:08] I want your child's.
[02:21:09] Exactly.
[02:21:10] And be less mentally strong.
[02:21:12] But for everyone else, we all know how much we want to weigh or whatever.
[02:21:17] Whatever.
[02:21:18] So this is what we're doing.
[02:21:19] Pure pressure.
[02:21:21] We're going to do that.
[02:21:22] We're going to pursue that.
[02:21:23] We're working out.
[02:21:24] We are getting control of our ego.
[02:21:28] We're moving forward.
[02:21:34] And we're going to
[02:21:32] Pavel Tumper and other various weaknesses.
[02:21:35] Also to facilitate that, we are taking control oil.
[02:21:40] If our joinist is sorry, that's what we're doing because.
[02:21:42] Problem solved ultimately is just one big problem.
[02:21:44] So its all thing thing, you know.
[02:21:46] So we're doing it wrong because we're ignoring.
[02:21:49] The problem is I don't want to get the money.
[02:21:51] So no one enough wants to be that someone is responsible for this.
[02:21:52] So cream.
[02:21:55] The idea is it's that there is basically 100 percent man in the world.
[02:21:57] Shelf.
[02:21:57] We'll kind of put that right in the whole equation. Go to onit.com slash jockel 10% off and support the podcast
[02:22:04] You know we're on this thing together kind of thing, you know
[02:22:08] Other stuff on on it. I took some new mood today. Interesting. I'm not necessarily in a new mood
[02:22:16] I think I'm in the same mood, but I don't think that's what it is. I think it's more and just you know
[02:22:20] Balancing out your whole stuff. Yeah, I just took it because it was there and that's the kind of thing that I won't take
[02:22:26] You don't want to be Balancing. I want current mood
[02:22:32] Young curler. What if you're feeling angry good?
[02:22:35] Then I'm good to go. I'm fairly certain it's for brain health, you know, and I think the new mood
[02:22:40] It like mood part of it is more of like a kind of a happenstance kind of cool thing like you know
[02:22:47] Anyway, maybe I took some of that I have some of that. I'm down for that
[02:22:51] There's a bunch of other stuff performance stuff, you know
[02:22:54] So if you're like hey, I'm getting after it. I want performance supplementation. That's what we're doing too. We're doing all this stuff as a group
[02:23:02] So let's jokalo
[02:23:04] Our current leader
[02:23:07] I think this is a group without a leader until someone tells them to stop then we're all stopping anyway
[02:23:13] Also good way to support
[02:23:15] And this is just to support yourself and support the group really because you know, okay, so this book these books all these books
[02:23:22] We read these books sure we're just in jok go over it and it's dope, but you know
[02:23:28] You want to get the book if you want to get the book and we know I'm reading less than 10% of the books. Yeah
[02:23:34] 5% it's like a book report although I might have gone a little bit crazy with Sydney Jerry last week
[02:23:39] Yeah, I wonder if you guys want to do it just fall on the audio book
[02:23:44] Just start and I'll stop seven hours later. Oh, three and a half. Yeah, that's it
[02:23:49] So because some good lessons though. Yeah, they're all they're all good lessons
[02:23:53] How many people see you know podcast three hours and 27 minutes and go come on jok
[02:24:00] Come on yeah, and how many people actually know what they say come on echo
[02:24:04] You talked about it. He talked about you talked about support for two hours and 27 minutes
[02:24:11] Come on, Brad's not my fault. That's the machine
[02:24:14] You know, I did a small little party guilty
[02:24:17] Anyway, if you want the books or one or whatever
[02:24:23] Our website jokapotcast.com. There's a section page if you will
[02:24:29] Man you on the tops his books from podcast boom click on that click through there
[02:24:33] Take you to Amazon purchase the book. That's a good way to support and you get the book boom
[02:24:39] Also, yeah, if you're gonna do any other shopping on there. Hey, feel free. That's a good way to support
[02:24:43] In a solid way and that's what we're all doing
[02:24:48] Straight up seats and now you're telling us real heavy peer pressure on everyone. Yeah, but it this is good peer pressure
[02:24:52] You said good peer pressure is good. Well, that is good because we're not you just do just helping
[02:24:58] Yeah, podcast doesn't cost anything exactly right boom
[02:25:02] And that's what we're doing also what we're doing is
[02:25:05] Subscribe eating what were you gonna say? I was gonna say continue talking all right there you go. I will and so subscribe to the podcast
[02:25:13] That's what we're all doing. I'm subscribed to the podcast and I'm on you know
[02:25:17] Yeah, well obviously we're all gonna do it
[02:25:20] Subscribe to the podcast if you haven't already
[02:25:23] Also on YouTube subscribe to that one
[02:25:26] That's a good one. That's where you make all those videos. All the videos only you're doing three videos a week
[02:25:30] Yeah, man that's the right not seeing that three of this in the future
[02:25:34] podcast video video format that your count. Yes
[02:25:40] So you're doing one podcast video and one and then two excerpts two excerpts
[02:25:44] Minimal is what I'm seeing okay? That's kind of so we should have a lot of excerpts up there
[02:25:49] Do you know and they grow every week?
[02:25:52] You know, so the and the benefit to those by the way
[02:25:54] You don't make your excerpts shorter why?
[02:25:57] Because they're too long a 12 minute excerpts not even an expert the excerpt. That's just another five
[02:26:02] That's the same that goes back to the same problem. It's essentially an all-in-one
[02:26:06] You need to do edit them. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah
[02:26:11] Amazing isn't it?
[02:26:13] Just be like boom so much. We'll listen to it in 30 seconds and be like oh, I got the gut the deal here
[02:26:17] Yeah, so okay, so the problem is with you is you enjoy the
[02:26:23] You enjoy the arc of the conversation. Yeah, see people want to hear the arc of the conversation
[02:26:27] They just listen to a whole podcast. Maybe I've been hangar with you too long because last week
[02:26:31] The way you were feeling you couldn't edit out just that whole you know 45 minutes of whatever same thing you get
[02:26:39] So part of that is a joke, but part of his a series, so you can you know how like okay
[02:26:42] I'm listening to your whole little segment and I'm gonna cut it right
[02:26:47] I'm gonna cut it right here and then your little follow-up comment is cool and then maybe I say something
[02:26:51] Which is like and whatever I can cut myself out easily, but then your follow-up to me is kind of cool
[02:26:56] I'm like, hey, that's important to I should leave that part in it
[02:26:58] So it just turns into this thing 12 minutes of extra
[02:27:03] Whatever that only I'm gonna talk or check and make half chicken nuggets
[02:27:09] Jockel and you rest with fine leg
[02:27:13] Yeah, they're not make nuggets anymore know actually they are, but you know that's an exception
[02:27:17] Sometimes they're 12 minutes. Hey, man. There's a lot of other things
[02:27:19] We could actually we could actually
[02:27:21] Re-shoot like re-record just the pertinent parts of you can't edit it out without like yeah
[02:27:26] No, that's a step backwards. I think I'm just making it repetitive, you know anyway
[02:27:32] That's a good way to support subscribe to YouTube channel boom
[02:27:36] Sharable stuff on there in the event of the excerpts not being told minutes in them in the event of them being three minutes or so
[02:27:43] You can share more shareable
[02:27:47] In fact I
[02:27:49] saw when I was like right after I posted it and then I think he was like
[02:27:54] I don't have a lady maybe he shares it and then I watched it
[02:27:58] See me that's a shareable. It is I just posted it you shared it and I watched it you did it
[02:28:03] Cudded it edited it you know posted it and then got shared back to you. You still watched it
[02:28:09] Yeah, well technically wasn't shared to me directly actually technically it was you're a work
[02:28:14] That's such a good ex-move
[02:28:16] Yes, so good how I cut the beginning in the end of that anyways, it's the hoppin start
[02:28:25] Anyway
[02:28:27] Subscribe to YouTube. That's the point. That's what we're doing
[02:28:31] Also, joc was a store. It's called jocco store
[02:28:36] Jocco store.com. So what's on here is
[02:28:40] Clothing items if you will new shirt out. Okay, so here's the thing is what we're doing
[02:28:47] We're wearing jocco podcast shirt. That's what we're doing. That's what I'm doing peer freshers
[02:28:51] Thank you. Yeah, I'm telling you. It's good peer fresher looks you let's shirt jocquels wearing right now
[02:28:56] Even there has become a jocco podcast shirt because we now manufacture victory MMA and fitness t-shirt to stay old school to the jocco uniform
[02:29:05] Yeah, really
[02:29:07] That shirt on jocco store.com. This shirt that I'm currently wearing jocco store.com. In fact
[02:29:14] All the shirts
[02:29:15] around jocco
[02:29:17] Store. I got the master had this t-shirt on yeah, and the most bad and at first I was like, you know
[02:29:24] I was like oh man, so I'm gonna see victory guy and then I was oh even cooler
[02:29:27] He's not a victory guy, but he's representing representing you. That's all
[02:29:32] That's what we're doing representing big time and if you
[02:29:35] I'm not saying buy a shirt. I never say buy a shirt. I'm saying
[02:29:40] Jocco store.com. Check it out if you'd like
[02:29:43] One or more of the items on there including but not limited to shirts
[02:29:49] Get something there's also rash guards and hoodies
[02:29:54] Kind of I got to replenish those I understand but some rash guards on there and
[02:29:59] The next hoodies are gonna be thick and heavy a lasking style
[02:30:02] Okay, Minnesota style
[02:30:05] You know what I was thinking on tannist
[02:30:08] Not not not hoist a
[02:30:10] Why stop why not go a step where we get a both because look you can't exclude the comma
[02:30:16] I know oh
[02:30:18] It means it means the people
[02:30:21] Technically when you think about it comma I know comma
[02:30:25] I know means land so people land. Yeah. I got a pretty good guest right there. Yeah. There you go
[02:30:30] Come on anyway you can neglect those folks. Okay. They're cool. We need to make a
[02:30:35] lifestyle and a an a north north or the
[02:30:39] Sure style. Yeah, yeah, the two side of the spectrum big everybody wants to represent or that's what we're all doing
[02:30:45] You know
[02:30:47] Representing
[02:30:48] Anyway, yeah, so rash guards on there like I said the okay, what I was gonna say is yeah
[02:30:52] Jocco has a certain and we've mentioned it before Jocco has a shirt now
[02:30:56] Well
[02:30:58] Technically he designed to shirt
[02:31:02] Varying levels of acceptance on my end. Yeah, it's the echo shirt
[02:31:08] Some people call it the dang shirt. Yeah, the echo shirt. There's some layers there
[02:31:12] You might be able to figure them out technically. There's more layers on the shirt than any other shirt
[02:31:16] Really be the most layered shirt. Oh, well, the fact that I made it is a layer. It's all right
[02:31:20] It is my page but well, my evaluation is it's interesting
[02:31:26] It was actually impressive the design is impressive like the layers and stuff. You know a design exclusively by Jocco
[02:31:36] So now I'm a fashion designer correct artist fashion designer. You know who would have fun
[02:31:41] I'm neither
[02:31:43] Technically you're well, I'm not technically either anyway that one's on there right now
[02:31:50] Right this very moment don't turn there if you want to check it out. I'm not saying to buy it
[02:31:54] I'm not saying that I'm saying check I think that shirt's gonna be popular with your head on it
[02:31:59] It's by the way it has echoes head on it because
[02:32:03] There's a layer
[02:32:05] In
[02:32:07] You got to see it. I don't know what I'm saying is though is
[02:32:10] somebody that somebody that like
[02:32:12] Doesn't want to just be forthcoming like for instance
[02:32:16] A lot of the shirts that we have that have layers to them. You don't know exactly what like know the darkest right?
[02:32:22] No one knows what the hell that has to do with the
[02:32:24] The Jocco podcast shirt the one that says Jocco podcast on okay, we know there's there's some layers there
[02:32:30] But it's pretty it's also pretty forthcoming what it means. Yeah, the shirt that I made
[02:32:35] For you with your head on it no one's gonna have any idea what that is
[02:32:38] It's so people automatically have some good layers there just by wearing that
[02:32:43] But it's not you know what's gonna have any idea what this is why is that per human's head on your chest?
[02:32:50] You're saying external people yes people who do
[02:32:54] Yeah, absolutely yeah
[02:32:55] Absolutely people in the game. They're gonna get the whole thing and they're gonna be like holy cut chocolate
[02:32:59] It's like if you listen to a band and
[02:33:01] You just you have a shirt that doesn't say the band name on it, but it's got the album cover
[02:33:06] Yeah, and people know
[02:33:08] People that know no people that listen
[02:33:10] Right if they listen they know same thing with this shirt if they don't listen they're not gonna know if they listen
[02:33:15] You're gonna get cred
[02:33:21] But yeah, that's a good one anyway. Jocco start.com. That's a good one
[02:33:23] That's what we're doing also what we're doing straight up is in the
[02:33:28] In the moments of weakness that we may or may not have
[02:33:31] Some won't solve them more than others, but what we do is we turn to psychological warfare if you know what that is
[02:33:38] This is what it's psychological warfare is an album with tracks tracks
[02:33:42] Dig it and these tracks what they do is they
[02:33:47] give you a spot
[02:33:49] with
[02:33:50] Any weakness or weak moments you have so
[02:33:54] If you're waking up early every single day and that one day comes or whatever that
[02:33:58] And I think that alarm so or that my bed is extra comfy. I mean, you know, I'm maybe I'll sleep in
[02:34:03] You don't want to have slept in, but that's how you feel at that moment that moment of weakness
[02:34:09] Play one of the tracks
[02:34:12] Wake up and get up, right?
[02:34:14] I don't use that particular track. I could use the workout one, so it's different
[02:34:17] But it'll help you through it'll give you that spot just like when you're and I said this before and this makes perfect sense
[02:34:23] This is what we're doing
[02:34:25] And when we jump onto the bench and we take on lofty challenges on the bench press
[02:34:31] We're gonna grab a guide of spot us not to say he's gonna touch the bar and not to say any of that, but
[02:34:37] We that we have a lofty challenge, so we got the spot to ensure our success
[02:34:43] So to me
[02:34:45] If you're not doing anything if you're not pursuing anything then this isn't for you
[02:34:50] You just gotta get up and whatever time you get up and go to wherever you do whatever you do come home to your thing
[02:34:56] Which is cool. That's not what we're doing though
[02:35:00] So I say while we do our big things
[02:35:04] I'm gonna get our spot. It's called psychological warfare. I'm not saying to use it. I'm saying, but if you need it
[02:35:09] You got it to ensure your success
[02:35:11] It's okay. That's good. Thank you appreciate that one. Yeah, yeah, thank you
[02:35:20] Hey
[02:35:22] Also you can get
[02:35:25] Jocca White Tea on Amazon get some if you want some also
[02:35:30] Origin main dot com if you're getting into Jitu or if you're into Jitu already and you need a ghee or a rash guard
[02:35:40] I recommend you go to origin main dot com. It's a my brother Pete Roberts up there
[02:35:47] In Maine where they make everything which is awesome. They weave the fabric so it's stitch it embroidery it send it out
[02:35:55] these rash guards
[02:35:57] shorts
[02:35:59] Made in America and and yes
[02:36:03] We are getting in league with origin main so there's a little bit of a perfect storm kind of brewing
[02:36:10] Got somebody that makes something in America something that I like in your neck of the woods to with it in my neck of the woods
[02:36:17] So we're getting on the war path with origin main and we're gonna get after it. So check them out
[02:36:28] Then weigh the warrior kid
[02:36:30] Make a kid's life better
[02:36:33] Get him or her this book so they can get better faster stronger
[02:36:39] And before you give it to them
[02:36:41] Low advice read it yourself Uncle Jake has something for all of us. That's for sure
[02:36:47] Also discipline equals freedom field manual
[02:36:52] I brought like a rough copy. I forget what they there's some name that they call this
[02:36:56] I've called this this one my third book up all this. I still don't understand the publishing like they have certain words and stuff
[02:37:02] They use
[02:37:03] Terms sure
[02:37:04] I'm gonna do this blah blah blah. How do I say what does that mean? But this is the book this is the book inside the cover
[02:37:12] So a couple things does this have a flashy cover that's gonna attract you know people to buy it. No, it doesn't it's got an all black cover flat
[02:37:22] That's what it's got
[02:37:24] Is it got some you know some interesting fluff in there for you to feel good about yourself? No that stuff's not in there either
[02:37:29] Does it have these incredible life hacks that gonna teach you how to rise?
[02:37:33] In fulfill your dreams through simple things that you can do. No those aren't in there either
[02:37:41] It's called a discipline equals freedom field manual
[02:37:44] It's about discipline and if you follow it you're gonna find freedom pretty simple
[02:37:49] There you go if you're on YouTube there's the book right there. Oh, what does it look like?
[02:37:53] Hard to see against the black background because it's black. Yeah. Yeah. It's not so you can see the cover
[02:37:58] That's not what the books for no no
[02:38:00] Although the cover does get you yeah, yeah, it's not so that's that that's that you can work that comes out October 17th
[02:38:10] The assumption is
[02:38:12] You might want to order it now so you get a copy when it first comes out
[02:38:16] Otherwise people will have discipline before you and that's gonna not gonna work out good for you
[02:38:22] Extreme ownership of course you have it by the way you have it. That's good
[02:38:26] But get it for your team because I'll make your life easier if you want to do that we also have echelon front consulting me
[02:38:32] Lavebabbin jpe to know Dave Burke
[02:38:36] Get your team aligned
[02:38:38] So your leadership can crush your enemies and by the way don't try and book us through a speakers agent if you know what that is if you know what that is
[02:38:47] Don't do it
[02:38:49] Don't
[02:38:50] Look online and find our literary agent and try and book don't do that
[02:38:55] We have a company it's called echelon front book through the company info and echelon front dot com email that
[02:39:02] That's how you get us to come and work with your
[02:39:05] Company the master
[02:39:08] We just got done with one next one September 14th and 15th in San Diego. It is going to sell out this factual
[02:39:15] It is going to sell out it is factual it is gonna sell out
[02:39:19] Because all three of the first ones have sold out this one's gonna sell out to register go to extreme ownership dot com if you want to come to it
[02:39:26] If you don't want to come stay at home, that's fine, too
[02:39:29] Whatever
[02:39:31] Hey, also if you train jiu jitsu or if you don't train and you want to start training
[02:39:36] Speaking of origin
[02:39:38] Main we're doing the origin immersion jiu jitsu camp up in main echo and I are going to be there training and cruising super hard
[02:39:50] The will be there the last day of the first session and the and the first day of the second session
[02:39:56] The sessions are August 20 through 23rd for the first session and 24 through 27th for the second session
[02:40:03] Come on up we're gonna be there if you want to train some jiu jitsu
[02:40:06] It's gonna be a good time and what I like about it is at the master the master is a tight schedule from four o'clock in the morning until
[02:40:14] nine o'clock at night ten o'clock at night. We're we're moving it this thing we're gonna do what
[02:40:20] Five hours six hours of jiu jitsu a day sure
[02:40:23] And then the rest of the time what are we gonna do with the other 18 hours a day? Yeah, you think total right?
[02:40:28] Yeah, yeah, I'm saying two hours in the morning two hours at lunch two hours in the afternoon
[02:40:33] I mean maybe not training the whole time, but whatever you just do in jiu jitsu showing
[02:40:38] Like hey can you go over this with me? Hey I got a question for you. Hey echo. Can you teach me that amount on escape that you got
[02:40:44] Like whatever you know those things we're gonna do we're gonna do that yeah
[02:40:47] Well, so that's six hours and then we sleep for four hours so that's 10 hours
[02:40:52] That's 14 hours this is 14 hours. There's 14 hours going to be just walking around in circles going to be TFT
[02:40:56] No, that's what we're gonna do is we're gonna hang out. So if you want to come train some jiu jitsu hang out come to that camp up in Maine
[02:41:03] It's gonna be awesome
[02:41:04] We're gonna we're gonna have a good time up there and until then
[02:41:10] We'll be rolling in another place
[02:41:12] Victory MMA yes also
[02:41:15] We'll be rolling on the interwebs
[02:41:18] The Twitter the Instagram and that facey
[02:41:21] Bouchy boy echo is at echo Charles and I am at
[02:41:28] Jocco-willing and
[02:41:30] Finally thanks to everyone for listening to this podcast which is brought to you by
[02:41:37] Our military
[02:41:38] Who are out there holding the line against evil world?
[02:41:43] Why it's also brought to you by
[02:41:45] Police law enforcement firefighters paramedics and other first responders who make this country safe here on the whole front
[02:41:53] so we can enjoy life
[02:41:57] Liberty and the pursuit of happiness
[02:42:01] Thanks to all of you and uniform for what you do and the rest of you
[02:42:07] That are out there
[02:42:09] Leading
[02:42:11] Leading wherever you are and whatever you do
[02:42:17] Leading yourself and the people around you in the right direction
[02:42:24] Forward
[02:42:26] Tord to go
[02:42:28] Tord to light
[02:42:30] Tord a better place
[02:42:34] Setting the example
[02:42:37] And getting after it
[02:42:39] So until next time this is echo and jacco
[02:42:45] Out