Jocko Podcast 84 w/ Echo Charles: Importance of Trust, Discipline, and Creativity. "18 Platoon."

2017-07-19T21:17:06Z

Join the conversation on Twitter: @jockowillink @echocharles 0:00:00 - Opening 0:02:56 - "18 Platoon" by Sydney Jary. Trust, Discipline, and Creativity in Leadership 2:30:58 - Take-aways and lessons learned. 2:51:11 - Support, Cool Onnit, JockoStore stuff, with Jocko White Tea and Psychological Warfare (on iTunes). Extreme Ownership (book), The Discipline Equals Freedom Field Manual. 3:18:25 - Closing Gratitude.

AI summary of episode

and cheeseman during the first few days of his demobilization is wife died miserable and forlorn he returned to his old job in Covent Garden and a few years later he met in married Bella who in his own words was a comfort and inspiration to him Charles Raven joined the London Transport as a bus conductor later transferring to the clerical staff and rose by hard work and study to be a garage inspector Joe Thomas and George Harris went into the building trade industry in Bridgewater surprisingly just incredibly normal paths after this incredibly not normal life and and what happened to Sydney Jerry so here's what happened to Sydney Jerry back to the book arriving in England on 9th July 1945 I reported to the holding battalion of the Hampshire Regiment at Westgate on sea and was immediately sent on 28 days leave after night out in London with three friends also berm a bound I telephone my parents and found them away caught a train from waterloo and went to see them staying at the same hotel as my parents were flight lieutenant Jack weatherlies widow Peggy and their three-year-old daughter Anne we're staying at the same hotel as his parents at once a bond of deep understanding and affection developed between us in August and Adam Baum was dropped and so at a stroke my visit to Burma was rendered pointless so two in my heart was a military career I soldiered on in Libya and Palestine with the first battalion of my own regiment for two more interesting years and finally was demobilized in May of 1947 within a week of leaving the army I attended a job interview the managing director who saw me a pale and thin-lipped man was a business acquaintance of a relative he eyed me coldly slowly and precisely from his desk he lifted a ruler which he rudely pointed at my face I understand that you made a slight name for yourself in the war be that as it may people like you Jerry should remember that while you have been galleventing around the world most of my staff had remained loyal to the company if you can give me one valid reason why should even consider you for any position I should be interested to hear it I nearly hit him now I wish that I had quickly grabbing my hat no umbrella I rose and told him that if he was the last man in the world I would rather starve than work for him with that I left my heart pounding and a foul taste in my mouth I walked aimlessly through miles of streets wishing that I was back on some battlefield with real men soldiers like 18 platoon armistice day brings its problems pagan I would like to go to church we used to go but found almost without exception a lack of perception and sensitivity amongst the clergy we suffered one armistice day sir sermon devoted to the curates theory that war being a crime against humanity all chivalry must therefore be hypocritical I wondered whether the German stretcher bears and their wounded at sin drn would have agreed I took offense pagan I have a lot to mourn she jack weatherly and I 18 pltunes dead perhaps it is expecting too much of anyone to understand intense grief particularly that of an now aging platoon commander who had to lead some of his men to their deaths we now spend armistice day quietly at home with our ghosts memories abound during the night I made a habit of wandering around the platoon position so that each of my soldiers could talk to me I learned a lot they talked about their families and their future hopes I hardly had to contribute to those whispered conversations that some times took place in the dead of night or in the cold gray light just before dawn I think it may have helped my soldiers to have a confidant invaluable experience of human nature I now treasure the memory weapons also left memories the monotonous repetitive bursts of the brain the hysterical shriek of the mg 42's for furious rate of fire and the lethal chatter of the stands and schmysers all contribute all contributed to the cacophony of battle traceable it seared themselves into memory fired from a distance the parable approached almost lazily until suddenly like a swarm of fiery demons they accelerated directly past one's head with earspooling cracks I shall never forget the brain splitting shockwave as mortar bombs detonated nor the rending of the atmosphere when a stick of nebel war for bombs straddled one slit trench my memory is stocked with smells the metallic stench of dead cattle and Normandy the punching odor of German prisoners and the vial penetrating chemical smell from a newly plowed shell creator strange fleeting memories too why in circumstance of great danger did the palms of my hands moisten making it difficult to grip the butt of my pistol why on pitch black knights full of menace was it possible to discern enemy movement by fixing my straining eyes slightly to its side it sounds foolish but I swear that it works after 40 years I am sure I could still prime a 36 grenade in total darkness or load the magazines of a cult automatic pistol I remember our dead their souls departing they lay awkwardly like bundles of discarded clothing at bedberg lands corporal portius lay by their railway crossing in an instant he had gone leaving his body clothing and equipment empty at halvin boom private jones died with a tiny cry boston the chill winter air as the bullet took him from us memories are not all sad rarely since as my adrenaline flowed as an advance to combat with all the senses alert one lived for a few hours sometimes for day at a concert pitch like a drug it captivated me I wanted more totally absorbed one pressed on until objectives had been seized then I flopped as I had never done since I remember the mood of pulsating expectancy during the last few hours before battle old trusted friends like Dennis Clark and brandly handcock would arrive to tie up their artillery support others troop commanders from the Sherwood Rangers would appear almost in party mood demari up with us the very air was vibrant with excitement and good fellowship no acrimony simply an exercise and willing cooperation to help us the infantry over come the day's grim task but my most treasured memory is the simple and sincere affection which existed between us all based on mutual trust it was the cornerstone of the platoon success and it survives unchanged to this day this is changed with regret regret because Jim Kingston owned cheeseman and particularly Doug Proctor did not receive any recognition they so richly deserved Jim and Owen were mentioned dispatches but Doug was left unrewarded over the years this omission has troubled me particularly because I had not been so had I not been so young and inexperienced more notice might have been taken of my representations I have no doubt that they all learned a military metal on more than one occasion and I their platoon commander failed them in this respect I miss my soldiers the warmth of their presence comforted me and their humor restored my spirits in the brutal world of infantry warfare although few of them realized it and certainly none would admit it their behavior was noble their absence left avoid which but for an exceptionally happy marriage would have certainly drawn me back into the army for the comfort that only a soldier can understand strangely I have never since considered myself anything but a soldier and that wraps up that book and I'm not sure if I have much to add because because Sidney Jerry seems to capture it and so much of what he talks about explains so much not only about about being a soldier but also about what it's like when a soldier is no longer a soldier to to miss the adrenaline to miss that singular focus to miss seeing men at their best at their noblest to miss the men themselves your comrades your friends your brothers to miss what he calls so perfectly that simple and sincere affection that exists in a platoon in affection that I'm not sure exists anywhere else and you you hear me talk about when I start talking about a seal platoon about how that's the best thing in the world and Sidney Jerry captures it better than me you miss the mission and you miss the men and of course you miss the fallen as the British call them the glorious dead and you wonder what would have become of them where would they be now and you you wonder why why them why was it them and you know I talk about the gift right the gift that they gave us that the fallen have given us this gift of freedom and this gift of life but there's there's more there's more because you see the rest of us we grow old from time passes us by and that that simple and sincere affection that Sidney Jerry describes it changes as we change it ages as we age but the fallen do not change the fallen do not age time has no effect on them they remain they remain young and bold and brave and uncomfortable and so we remember them that way as they were and as they will always be are heroes heroes who walk no more and yet walk everywhere with us who smile no more and yet they never stop smiling heroes who live no more yet never stop living are friends who shine no more and yet never stop shining and that is the other gift that they give us the fortune to panic and remember I think that's all I've got for tonight. so he I think he does grab another guy in this occasion but he goes out and he's going through this field and it's like a corn field or something and he can't see and he's horrified and he he's trying to think of a reason to quit he's like I just want to go back this isn't smart and as he's as this is taking place and this is fear is climaxing all of a sudden he hears oh, bunch of cows that have fielded right so he's doing another solo operation here trying to find out what these tank like assault guns are doing out there back to the book climbing up above the tracks I put my head into the coupla which was open a familiar interrible stench hit me inside was a sharnell house six inches away a set of bear teeth set in unrecognizable black and incinerated lump grinned it me beside it a charred and bony arm reached up in agony spread on the floor like a pool of tar lay the melted remains of the driver I had entered Dante's inferno my head reeled and with my mouth knows and lungs filled with the stench of death I fell back to the ground although unmarked by fire on all on our side all three assault guns had brood up and were blackened on their sides which faced the enemy with no stomach to look further I ran back to the company for getting to look for American minds never again did I look into a knocked-out tank or self-propelled gun I reported to Douglas that nobody in the right mind would use them for an observation post or for any other purpose later that day he asked that's Douglas Douglas asked the commander of a Sherman tank to fire some armor piercing shells into each of them positioning his tank hold down beside 16 platoon positions which were two are left the tank commanders the tank commander first selected the assault gun I had visited his first shell hit it slightly above the tracks like the hammer of Vulcan a red glow blossomed on the armor plate around the point of entry and slowly faded it was followed by a second and third shell until a morage of heat appeared above it and for a second time the funeral pyre blazed with an incandescent ferocity the Sherman gunner then turned his attention to the next assault gun which despite being penetrated by about six armor piercing rounds failed to brew up his first shot at the third caused a massive internal detonation no doubt due to amination stacked within a volcano erupted from its coppola sending a dense cloud of black smoke and red sparks into the air a truly wagonarian end for the warriors entuned within but it revolted me for the rest of the day I brooded this communicated itself to my nco's and soldiers who stole mystified glances at my grief for an unknown enemy during the afternoon I wandered across the road to a lone house where Dennis Clark had his observation post I was looking for solace from a wise and good friend a post was filled with gunner officers there must have been a dozen of them setting up their equipment and preparation for an attack by 214 brigade this activity precluded any solace for me immature and undisciplined my imagination ran riot what were they like these men whose already incinerated remains had been blasted into oblivion by the 75 millimeter shells of our friend in the Sherman my attitude to war was ambivalent undoubtedly I was part pacifist but despite an abysmal record in mathematics and particularly in geometry I was moderately logical for my age this clearly ruled out total dedication to pacifism I had previously discussed the concept of conscious objection with clergy of all denominations but none of them could give me constructive answers to my questions the privations and suffering of 18 putoon hurt me an infantry subaltern is faced with a conflict which cannot be resolved one gets emotionally involved with those under one's command without this bond few men will respond and consequently little can be achieved however to win battles decisions have to be taken and orders given which at times may seem to be a betrayal of this trust before battle the commander must exude confidence and enthusiasm whatever fears his private thoughts may hold just how thin the line divides this from deliberate deception I call it the commander's dilemma a pretentious phrase but there is nothing to be done about it the Nicholas Montserrat's book the cruel sea poor commander Eric Itson makes the point with poignancy it's the war the whole bloody war we've just got to do these things and say our prayers at the end there was another side possibly caused by adrenaline danger attracted and excited me I felt elated and until the battle was over I was impervious to exhaustion commanding a platoon embattled demands not only a clear mind right he had brewed a mess tin of tea on a solid fuel stove by any standards this was an inspired act he was considerate with our reinforcements pale unsure men some of whom until recently it served in the royal artillery and it been transferred to infantry regiments to replace the appalling losses incurred in the Normandy Bocage beside them Raven looked bronze in weather beaten a hardened campaigner complete with a German luger pistol to prove it some of the platoon regaled the reinforcements with horrible tails from Normandy and else as little more than a schoolboy I found these stories amusing Raven did not fear for him was horribly real and never to be joked about he developed a eternal attitude toward the newer and younger soldiers a relationship devoid of patronage but essentially one of kindly understanding he spoke to me about it when I thanked him for his help I admit I'm dead windy sir his extraordinary honesty with himself and the rest of the platoon forbade him to attempt to hide the fact Raven in overtaxed his nervous and physical resources long before we arrived in hoven woods after two days in the position he came to me late one evening and asked my permission to report sick the following morning I suppose I should and fettically have refused but something made me hesitate and avoid dealing directly with the situation I said simply all right Raven but do come see me before you leave he didn't come the matter was never again mentioned I can only surmised the struggle which rage in his mind all that night while he crouched in his waterlogs slit trunch peering into the sinister darkness of the wood I do know however that in hoven wood a considerable moral triumph over stark horror was achieved by a good man unequipped for nature unequipped by nature for war in my view the bravest of the brave so that guy Raven had been through all this stuff and just barely held the line and finally he was going to break finally he was going to break and he comes to city gerian says hey I'm gonna go sick tomorrow send the gerian says okay come and see me before you go it doesn't come back it doesn't come back to him doesn't go sick back to the book infantry warfare is wretched business it makes physical and emotional demands on participants that run contrary to all human instinct the strong minority must quietly help the weak majority to me that is the essence of good teamwork and that jewel in the crown of the British army the regimental system is the strong foundation upon which we all knowingly or unknowingly relied so there's going to be some people that deal with it better than others and you got to help um here's a situation they set up early warning flares so little trip wires in case to to notify them if the enemies move and down one of their flanks and here we go back to the book after about 10 minutes had passed we heard the popping of mortars behind hoven village in a concentration of bombs fell in the fields where we had laid the flares suddenly our left flank was vividly illuminated as flair after flair ignited knowing little about these flares we had laid them with the trip wires to talk had we allowed a degree of slack the flares were not a vergnited my fault I should have known had to fill the extreme ownership from Sydney Jerry and therefore y'all now he's talking about the attitudes of the soldiers and how soldiers you know there was a claim he read an article years after the war that said that people you know people became brutal from the from the war and here's what he says back to the book does war brutalize one can only speak from personal experience I was far too young and inexperienced to appreciate that an infantry platoon was the finest command in the army and that's the success or failure of a battle so often lay solely in the hands of a young officer after careful reflection I doubt that at any time since the war have I carried the burden of responsibility that I bore as a subaltern in battle when an army corps division or brigade was committed to battle it was the battalion company in platoon commanders who took over the mantle of responsibility from the generals and brigadiers in close country for us and street fighting the platoon commander became the lynch pin only the company and platoon commanders particularly the latter were able to have close relationship with their soldiers which is a prerequisite for having above average success failure by one infantry company could record a divisional battle plan conversely gallant success like B company at Xan 10 underwrote the battalions victory again I would emphasize the analog with the bond of professional respect between a great conductor and the members of a symphony orchestra without which a truly great performance is not possible outstanding performances cannot be arranged in a concert promoters office the created by some magic by the conductor in players in rehearsal and performance similarly while senior commanders appreciated the strengths and weaknesses of their battions and brigades they could not extract a great performance from the riflemen upon whom victory depended only the company of platoon commanders supported by their NCOs could ensure that 42 years on I get considerable satisfaction from 18 platoon successes more so than I got at the time so those are his thoughts and he's the wars now over and a few days after the war ended well go to the book after cholera and noculations we were conducted into the world of Frankenstein nothing had prepared us for what we now experienced not hill one twelve not mount pinchon else or hoven could compete with this horror before the incredulous eyes of 18 platoon spread over acres of delightfully wooded countryside was a factory of death and they sheaded bodies resembling wax effigies of an alien race from a strange and distant planet filled many pits the stench of death and the sight of such highly industrialized human degradation left my soldiers speechless private macy d companies deep driver aptly summed it up there is now no doubt that we have fought a just war that's after they saw the concentration camps obviously back to the book within a month of the war ending 21st Army group was required to supply junior officers for the 14th Army in Burma lipy the commanding officer decided that I should be one of them and by then being intent on a military career I was not inclined to argue I would gain useful experience of jungle warfare of which I knew nothing about so they're getting orders still a war going on in the Pacific yeah back to the book I now have little doubt that for the first two months in Normandy we lack two things comprehensive and imaginative training and personal experience of battle we were also seriously handicapped by our casual attitude too many junior officers did not think for themselves and persistently relied on the narrow teaching of battle schools who's dogma had assumed the proportion of holy rit so whatever he was taught he was taught that that's the only way you can ever do it and these guys and if talk about this many times on the on the podcast the goal when I was running training was to actually get the people to think it wasn't get sure you have to establish the baseline standard operating procedures that's great and those need to be rock solid but once those things are established you need to make people understand that you don't always follow them and you need to call off a piece of that standard operating procedure to insert some other thing and bring in another standard operating procedure and mix and match them so you get something that's effective you need to think that's what a leader needs to do a leader needs to think back to the book the British infantry platoons and companies were overtrained and board stiff with basic infantry tactics which as far as they went were good much of this training unfortunately had been in the hands of battle school instructors who themselves lacked battle experience and imagination these tended to become pedagogues disciples of DS directing staff solution about which no argument could be tolerated so DS is that he be he mentions in a bunch like that's their solution the directing staff you can't argue with them they're the they're the cadre possibly like most of our entry infantry they suffered some consequences of the pre-roar shortage of creativity intelligent regimental officers two few of them were professionally dedicated to the extent that they could visualize how battles would be fought and identify the problems that might arise when planning them they seemed to lack the capacity to think relentlessly through these things until solutions were found much of their time had been spent policing the British empire also unlike the Germans we British instinctively avoid displays of keenness the enthusiast particularly if he is innovative isn't embarrassment thus the battlefield became our teacher and inevitably it exacted a grim price in blood and time so as you're training you got to push yourself hard you've got to put yourself in situations I don't care what you're training for I don't care if you're training for combat in a sea of platoon in an army infantry platoon or if you're in the business world and you're training your leaders to handle situations or you're training your customer service reps to handle situations what no matter which one of those you're in you need to push people hard you need to put them in worst case scenario so that they need to learn how they need to learn how to think to get out of those problems but then once they're on the defense and they're just waiting to get shell they start to stoop they start to crouch a little bit he continues back to the book the jokes began to peed around and the cheerful good morning surf ceased when I went around the platoons at stand two morale was always higher during an attack sitting around and being sheldt is not an occupation to be recommended so there's a good lesson there if you or your team is being defensive about things your morale is going to go down because you're waiting to get hit so go on hit somebody you know go on the attack don't wait around don't let your morale drown here's another attack back to the book scrambling out of the culvert we set a fast pace up the side of the road to a company's positions this immediately brought small arms fire down on us but by then we were then 200 yards of their slit trenches so on we ran as fast as we could being soaked I began to steam my boots squelched and seemed to drag me back clawing at my feet as in a bad dream and stopping me from reaching the inviting cover of the slit trenches a company was dug in with two platoons forward in an orchard face to face to the enemy who were in dikes only a few yards beyond the third platoon was to the right rear protecting the open flank and company headquarters to the left rear centered on some farm buildings it was to these farm buildings that we ran hurling ourselves onto the straw on the barn floor we lay panting and gasping for breath john a cock a company commander appeared round the door of the barn he looked haggard and warned I doubt he had slept for a week the whole company area was covered by the most intense spandell fire and defensive and the defensive battle here was one of fire supremacy which the Germans had undoubtedly won a company's morale was low they had just lost hairy barns one of the platoon commanders who refusing to take cover strutted about an usual manner he took a complete burst of spandell fire under the arm hairy was an amazing and fearless fellow who didn't care a damn for anything even after the burst hit him he still lived for about three hours the men respected hairy and with their idle shot down in front of them they were very jumpy another time you have to watch out for morale obviously now if you remember this book started in the summer time and now we're starting to get towards fall and this this is something I never thought about before when fall comes you know the sun is up for a shorter period of time so here we go back to the book the nights became longer and the dawns gray and chilly the sun sets were red and vivid and the days though beautiful short and rapidly as the nights lengthened the hours of staggered lengthened and with them the mental and physical fatigue of the company so they have to stay up you know rotate through watches at night you just don't get to sleep the whole time but also considerable emotional force I suspected is the same transmitted force that exists between a conductor and orchestra 40 years later the dilemma of my ambivalence is still unresolved I find the suffering inflicted by war unacceptable particularly amongst women children and animals thank God I was spared the horrific sights at felays on some days I am a pacifist and yet I'm still attracted by the sounds of guns and but for an extraordinarily happy marriage would have found it difficult to resist the lore of soldiering so what he calls the commanders dilemma this one I call the dichotomy of leadership and that one is the premier of them all and that is as a leader as a combat leader you are going to love your men and care about them more than anything else in the world and with that you are going to make decisions and make plans where you are sending those men into a situation where they can be wounded or killed and that's it and that is the ultimate dichotomy of leadership that is the hardest one to balance it back to the book a new officer arrived named Humphrey's he used to play cricket for warstisher he came on the same day that sergeant Oxlyn received a well-earned commission in the field Douglas told him about sergeant Oxlyn and with great consideration he went to 17 platoon's position to offer his congratulations while they talked just one salvo of one oh five straddled them one shell fell into second lieutenant Oxlyn's slit trench and both were killed instantly like me can Oxlyn has survived five months Humphrey's survives not a full day is there a mathematical formula by which survival can be calculated who are the survivors and can they be recognized over the past 40 years I've often pondered this but still offer no real answer I suspect however that is something to do with attitude attitude seems to me to be a parameter which restricts not only our relationships but also our creative effort further comment is on wise Humphrey's one cargue had little time to develop an attitude to our kind of existence undoubtedly a self-fulfilling circle develops newcomers inexperienced in the perils of the battlefield suffered the highest casualties knowledge of what can and what cannot be wrists post-pones the fatal reckoning for the soldier for the commander however junior battle field experience will not only protect himself but also all those under his command and that's that's why training is so important it's so important and that's why when I got done with you know deployment to her body that's why I went to training because I knew that right there and I was thinking you know I didn't know I was wrong the war was going to last and when we left for money where money was still horrible and when the task unit came in relieved us man they were getting after it oh group after the oh group I made myself unpopular by asking why we're advancing towards an area of considerable German opposition when my patrol found a better route by which we might outflank the enemy so that so he's saying hey wait what because his patrol his puttune had been out on a patrol and found a better route and he's asking why and he kind of gets shut down I was just twenty years old at the time and even then I knew I was incapable of disputing orders without giving a fence we started at zero six hundred hours two platoons leading on either side of the track the third falling in single filed down the track itself on either side were the small holdings were small holdings a few allotments in bungalows surrounded by small picket fences but platoons advanced through the gardens and vegetable patches and passed on either side of the bungalows the rear section searching each one quickly and while they're searching these little bungalows as their own patrol they find this back to the book during one of these hurried searches one section found a Dutch family the widdages father mother son and daughter riddled by schmites or fire that's a German machine gun they lay in awkward postures of death amid their ransacked home a visit from the SS no tears came nor did they come a half an hour later when we came upon the charred wreckage of an american decoda it had carried US parachute troops the 82nd airborne division and their torn and burnt bodies littered the orchard like charred and mutilated rag dolls it was a further iron or irony attached to the front window in what remained of the decoda's cockpit was a tiny teddy bear untouched by flames two months before a lonely teddy bear and an impersonal pool of blood had brought forth tears now I was collected and objective when faced within the span of thirty minutes within a trotious murder and mass carnage by fire and he's referring there in the beginning of the book one of his first experiences he's by a slit trench and there's a dead guy soldier in it and there's a little teddy bear and and for some reason you know he's young he's in experience and it gets gets makes him super emotionally starts crying and and now he's a little further in the war he sees you know this horrible murdered family and these tragically you know burned and killed paratroopers and he's able to detach emotionally from it back to the book the enemy decided to make life unpleasant for us as possible by sudden unpredictable concentrations of heavy artillery right in the middle of our company area we called them stunks but we did not know who is going to take over our positions the take over was to be at night and was to be carried out as quickly as possible if the enemy discovered it a determined attack could cause endless confusion and slaughter during the late afternoon of one particularly unpleasant day Douglas appeared that's a company commander appeared within American captain in two lieutenant's from a parachute battalion of the hundred and first airborne division they patied around the company area in their rubber-sold boots with the eyes of the whole company following them it's a hundred and first is coming into a leave him having reckoned ordered our area the Americans returned to the company HQ to discuss administrative points for the takeover the plan was for the American company commander to bring his company down the main road in single file along the edge of the ditch when the head of the column reach our company HQ they would be met by guides from each of our platoons to lead the American platoons to their positions as soon as they were on the ground our platoons were withdraw and assemble on the road this may sound simple in practice at but at night in close contact with the enemy it certainly was not this type of operation leaves two companies particularly vulnerable during the handover a determined enemy could attack and turn the operation into a massacre this is one of and I've said this before on the podcast one of the hardest things to do is link up with friendly forces on the battlefield and if you're under fire it's it's even harder so this one they're trying to do it not under fire trying to sneak and make it happen back to the book the rest of the day was spent packing making sure the enemy noticed nothing of this antit activity we put our spare ammunition onto the carriers with great coats and blankets the whole afternoon was strangely quiet there was no activity from the enemy and we in turn kept quiet the sun went down a mid-a-firey sky looking east the sky was threateningly gray I went around I went around my position to with Sergeant Kingston before the Americans arrived all my men looked tired and could hardly muster a smile as I went from slit to slit many had contained two men and now contained only one together with some momento of his former mate a mess tin or a bloodstained jacket even a packet of cigarettes wet and limp with dew I wondered how many more momentos would be there when the Americans were relieved about an hour later the Americans arrived they loomed up in the darkness by the roadside padding along in the rubber sold boots without a whisper I fought at the time what splendid troops they were and how excellent their equipment I was particularly impressed by the silent and quick way they were led by their squad commanders to our section positions so there come the Americans who leave them the hundred first airborne division who's just outstanding soldiers they're just awesome i think he must have been a German medical officer turned and saluted in our direction i returned the salute and with that gesture the tiny battle of cinder and ended in bremen little over a month later one of our stretcher bears Lance Corporal J. Stevens was killed by a German grenade as he went to tend to wounded German soldier 18 platoon remembering cinder and were justifiably outraged by such unsolderly behavior there is a mathematical formula aggression increases the further one goes behind the lines opposing infantry with few exceptions like the SS are joined by a natural bond of mutual compassion which few but the aristocracy of the battlefield can understand the public influence no doubt by writers with literal no experience of battle have strange and sometimes silly ideas about what makes a good soldier ill informed television programs of added to this misunderstanding few professions can be have been so misleadingly caricatured i had had i been asked at the time before august 1944 to list the personal characteristics which go to make a good infantry soldier my reply would indeed have been why to the mark why to the mark like most i know doubt one of suggested only masculine ones like aggression physical stamina a hunting instinct instinct and competitive nature how wrong i would have been i would now suggest the following firstly sufferance without which one could not survive so he's listing what he thinks the most important characteristics for a for an infantry soldier out of the first one is sufferance the ability to suffer secondly a quiet mind which enables a soldier to live in harmony with his fellows through all sorts of difficulties and sometimes under dreadful conditions as in a closed monastic existence there's simply no room for the assertive or acrimonious thirdly below no less important a sense of the ridiculous which helps the soldiers are mount the unacceptable add to these a reasonable standard of physical fitness and a dedicated professional competence and you have a soldier for all seasons none of the soldiers or nco's who made 18-platoon what it was resembled the characters portrayed in most books and films about war all quiet sensible unassuming and some by any standard were heroes if i now had to select a team for a dangerous mission and my choice was restricted to stars of the sports field or poets I would unhazitatingly recruit from the latter very interesting it's a name of the city village casualties from the preceding companies in the opposition lay all around about 300 yards short of the town were extremely accurately engaged by a battery of 105s some of their shells exploded on the hard surface the road your splitting detonations and frightening fragmentation pieces of shell casing hummed and wind around us one trolling peace embedded itself with a foot into the trunk of a tree a few inches from my right ear was the only time in the whole campaign when i regretted throwing away my steel helmet i think it was the accuracy and the intense noise of the shelling that caused it one of 18 pertunes lance corpoles a big man who had served honorably since market garden went to pieces there was a pathetic site and to everyone's credit he was quietly removed from the battle he had passed his limit and nothing more can be said so you don't know these guys are brave at one moment and then a week a month two months four months they can't do it anymore they get across the line now they're fully in Germany there's a little bit of a low in the fighting back to the book early one morning while we were waiting for our supporting armor to arrive our podry john Williams drove over to see us after wandering around the platoon for a chat he suggested he suggested that we should go for a short stroll i had now been commanding 18 platoon for over eight months and i suspect that our agitant Tim Watson a kindly soul had asked him to find out what shape i was in we had not gone far into the next field when he came across some grizzly remnants one of our artillery shells must have exploded right at the feet of a German soldier who had been digging a slit trench his splintered and twisted spade lay beside laid by the side of that half dug trench beside which was a small shell hole he had been disintegrated into small pieces of flesh and bone which they scattered all over the field had I been on my own I would no doubt have shuttered and quickly departed from this horror draped over a wire fence nearby lay a parachute which are extraordinarily brave podry spread out as a shroud on the cold and damp grass then stupid he walked around the field a lonely figure reverently picking up every piece of that poor soldier to my shame i stood and watched him i lacked the courage to help somewhere beneath those flat damp fields just north of the line that pallet it pathetic bundle must still lie now they're in attack again but it seems like things are going their way I mean it ended up not lasting that much longer that kind of intense fighting but it was impossible to tell at that time we would just barely seeing stuff start to get better at the end of our deployment just barely starting to see the first indications of that back to the book the fifth Duke of Cornwall's light infantry had attempted to attack Hove and village through these ghastly woods and had taken heavy casualties their reign soaked bodies littered the paths and clearings while carrying out a reconnaissance I came across one of their sections lying along a small path facing the enemy at first I fought them alive until I saw that the studs on their boots were rusty and their webbing equipment was bleached with rain their battle dress was starched with mud and their hands and faces were green German booby traps were on or near many of the tracks and I was told by the company commander of the fourth wheelchairs from whom we took over the position that some of the bodies were also booby trapped don't try to bury them he said I was temporarily commanding the company because Douglas had been given a well deserved leave in Brussels although militarily comparatively un-adventful Hove and has a special place in my memories it was without doubt my most the most grizzly and horrifying position that we ever hold held but more importantly it was the place of private Charles Raven's triumph Raven had fought in all our battles since hill 112 which to him was a yardstick of horror all subsequent experience was compared with that his first battle he was no soldier I doubt if he influenced greatly any of the skirmishes and counters or battles in which he took part sometimes he was frightened and he was so out of place on the battlefield that I often wondered how he became an infantry soldier before the war he had been a clerk in north London I'm sure he was a conscientious and loyal employee and a considerate and loving husband for unlike most of us he was married Raven had hidden depths and could be inspired once in Normandy during a nasty little platoon attack up a sunken lane 18 platoon was held up by the inevitable unlocated spandows straining my eyes through binoculars I was trying vainly to locate these guns when I was handed a steaming mug of tea he should have been observing to his front but judging the moment The Patoons are getting overrun and people are getting me you know shot with paintball and they're not hitting their objectives and I walk over to the company commander he's sitting in a home v I'm sorry the the to you commander the troop commander he's sitting in a home v and I like the windows up because they're both windows but he doesn't want to get shot with paintball the windows up he's just sitting in there he's got his head set on of his radio like knock on the door I'm like hey man you know what what's going on out there he's like well I'm I'm trying to gather that information right now hmm I recall within bearishment an incident at 45th Infantry Division battle school during the spring of 1944 an exceptionally tall and good-natured Canadian officer had been sent to the school to give a talk on the street fighting he had experienced nearly it was an interesting talk but some of his advice ran contrary to that being taught in the school when the lecture was over the chief and instructor with insulting condensation thank this shy and kindly man for a vivid word picture and turning to the students warned us that as this officer's experience was probably unusual we had best not stray from the DS solution as taught at that school so you got to combat veteran come and back with experience from street fighting in Italy and he'd come back with some different tactics and they tell him you don't listen that guy that's just a rare case close mind will get you killed this is starting to talk about they're overall sort of formulation of combat plans and how they operated back to the book the most successful actions by 18 Paltoon were fought without the support of artillery or armor we had learned in a hard school how to skirmish infiltrate and edge our way forward the right or left flanking platoon attack so beloved of the battle school staff would rarely succeed in the Normandy Bocage I remember with harbing locked into timetables of meticulously planned large battles these invariably left the junior infantry commander no scope for exploitation if you found a gap in the enemy defenses adherence to artillery program which rarely could be altered effectively stopped any personal initiative so I decided to take a total patrol strength of six men one brand with seven magazines and three armed with stands with five magazines and four thirty six grenades each plus a pair of wire cutters I carried my cult four grenades and a non-brella my umbrella had been a source of amusement to the battoons inside found on the roadside in muc apart from keeping me dry in or out of a slit trench it was useful when prodding for mines and brought some fun and color to our lives Jim Kingston and Doug Proctor fought otherwise maintaining a disapproving silence which I failed to notice so now they're out on patrol moving down the bank the right we crawled forward in the mud and wet grass into we're almost past the orchard from which came the sound of digging and voices suddenly a challenge came from our front followed by a shower of stick grenades thrown from a trench just inside the orchard on our left one of the grenades landed between my legs which were stretched out and spread apart as I lay flat on the river bank there was no flash it's explosions seemed muffled and more importantly owing to the soft mud I received not a scratch the game was up now the concentrated fire of the three stands poured into the German into the surprise Germans putting away my pistol I threw three thirty six grenades in quick succession into the orchard heardly reaching from my umbrella which alluded me and then enormously, economically we'd be to retreat so he gets a graze throw on him and actually had this happen until you bruiser some guys were out on a patrol they were an open field they had cover from one side because they had pre-plant how they were in a crosses field and while they were out there they got hit with machine gun fire and then mortars and they got mortars dating like on them and luckily because it was they were in like a muddy field like almost rice paddy scenario the mortars when they hit they went into the mud but I think not certainly no soldier of mine was made brutal rather the opposite war developed in 18 puttune consideration for comrades and humanity towards civilians and prisoners of war I was proud of my soldiers then and this sentiment has increased with the passing of years I would not suggest that the naturally brutal might not find in war and outland for their brutality however that war does not brutalize the type of decent man the type of decent and fair-minded young English men whom I had the very great honor to command we were not an aggressive generation a fact which may explain my failure to understand some present day attitudes in the armed services particularly in the royal marines and the parachute regimen possibly a degree of personal aggression is appropriate in troops are who are committed to battle for comparatively short periods like the marines and the paras when the success of an operation depends on ultra rapid action however in my experience troops lose personal aggression after about two months in battle after three months they acquire a mature compassion which in no way detracts from their offensive capability they simply know a lot more about war I would suggest that personal aggression should not be confused with offensive spirit based on professional competence and experience interesting take that aggression that you can maintain if you it's not going to last rubber and he says one day when you're in charge of battalion you'll understand why that is and the reason why that is because you got the good guy and that's the guy you're going to send out you're going to rely on the people that get it done well this is an interesting we got another patrol that they're getting ready to have to go out on and the patrol was to probe between the roads and advance if possible as far as the forest beyond this its purpose was indeed vague Douglas called me and another platoon commander to company HQ and explained it to us he then suggested we should toss a coin for an embarrassing situation arose I thought that the winner would lead the patrol the other officer anticipated that the loser would I lost the toss and got the job so so imagine that you and me are saying all right there's a dangerous patrol we're going to have to do let's flip for it I'm thinking heads if I win I get to do the patrol you're thinking if you win you don't have to do the patrol not everyone was quite as fired up I guess this is Sydney Jerry was and they they wrap up a relatively kind of un-eventful patrol relatively un-eventful patrol and he's he realizes it back to the book no young officer can command a puttune in battle on his own in Normandy I'd seen puttune commander served by poor nco struggling to gain some semblance of control over their but wielded and frightened men I'd also seen puttunes with good nco's go to pieces in the hands of an indifference officer Jim Kingston Doug Proctor and Owen cheeseman set the standard n-tone for 18 puttune without them I as the puttune commander would have joined the ranks of so many poor young officers who never achieved grip now going to another we're putting together another plan as they're advancing and obviously this is a long book I'm doing an abridge version hitting some highlights you should get the book obviously get the book by the book back to the book at zero four hundred hours on twenty-fourth of September Douglass this is the new company commander Douglass held along I thought I'd remember and I was right Dennis Clark was a was an artillery guy that called an artillery so here we go back to the book I was saved by Captain Dennis Clark MC our team gunner Dennis had a virtue also touch where 25 founders were concerned sniping with one gun that should get the buggers out he said with total confidence moving his 19 set into my that's a radio moving his 19 set into my platoon position no easy task in daylight he gave us a display of the most brilliant professionalism we had come to expect from the 94th field regiment by firing with only one gun and making his mean point of impact beyond the diek containing the Germans he slowly decreased the range yard by yard until one shell exploded in the diek out came five very wet and shaken pans or grandadiers during this episode all the platoon had to remain in the bottom of their slith trenches because Dennis' shells came over our positions with minimum clearance I doubt if any experienced infantry officer would deny that the Royal Artillery during the second World War were the most professionally competent people in the British Army so again an interesting dichotomy because in the beginning he talks about how the artillery can track them because it's being used in this broad plan that's locking in with there's no deviation but here he's talking about how brilliant it is because he's directly coordinating with it he's explaining to the artillery officer where to put those rounds what the problem is and then letting the artillery officer solve it and it's that same attitude that I saw with guys in Ramadi the same attitude alright now he makes a statement here about this whole big operation which was called market garden which was this giant operation to try and caught off the Germans sees multiple bridges and there's three bridges they were trying to seize and it it didn't reach its full effect it wasn't like a complete mission success they didn't achieve every objective that they wanted to so here we go back to the book market garden was a sad operation complete success coming so close at a stroke the war in Europe could have been finished in 1944 undoubtedly mistakes were made both by the first airborne division particularly their planners and also by 30 core and there was no shortage of bad luck however in my experiences in my experience most battles are riddled with misfortunes and mistakes and the of the sort found in this operation it was not a failure because the ground was taken and a prerequisite to both operation veritable and the rind crossing so wasn't like a total failure back to the book I'm convinced that had the supreme commander generalize now are given market garden the unqualified support that it justified it would have totally succeeded despite its crop of tack coerres and planning and execution I suppose it was just one more casualty of the american mania for dispersal of effort however it was without a doubt the most exciting and imaginatively planned battle in which 18 puttune ever fought

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Episode transcript

[00:00:00] This is Jocco podcast number 84 with echo Charles and me, Jocco willing.
[00:00:08] Good evening echo.
[00:00:09] Good evening.
[00:00:14] Gentlemen, your life expectancy from the day you join your battalion will be precisely
[00:00:21] three weeks.
[00:00:24] The Florida mustache major who addressed us at the small reinforcement camp a few miles
[00:00:31] from Bayou obviously had misplaced how to misplace sense of humor.
[00:00:36] Or he should have been sacked.
[00:00:39] On second thought, he definitely should have been sacked.
[00:00:42] Not that any of the dozen infantry subalterns took the slightest notice of what to us with
[00:00:49] the ramblings of an old fool. He was probably no more than 40.
[00:00:56] The fourth battalion, the summer set light infantry was in one twenty nine brigade and
[00:01:03] was a pre-war territorial army battalion with close links with Bristol and Bath.
[00:01:11] In the United Kingdom till late June 1944 it was a close knit unit which had almost been
[00:01:21] decimated within a period of 48 hours.
[00:01:26] On fifth of July, three officers and 62 other ranks were required as reinforcements.
[00:01:34] Between the 14th and the 18th of July, a further 12 officers of whom I was one and
[00:01:41] 479 other ranks arrived and even then the battalion was still below its full strength of 36
[00:01:50] officers and nearly 700 NCOs and men.
[00:01:55] This will give some idea of the appalling level of infantry casualties which had to be
[00:02:01] accepted in order to enlarge the slender and vulnerable Normandy beachhead.
[00:02:09] As I had the had had previous experience of six pounder anti tank guns, the commanding
[00:02:16] officer, Lippi, Lieutenant Colonel C. G. Lipscomb, posted me as second in command to the
[00:02:22] battalion's anti tank platoon which consisted of six guns.
[00:02:28] But my stay with that platoon was short and I was quickly sucked into the real infantry
[00:02:33] battle as commander of 18 platoon in D company on the 31st of July immediately after the
[00:02:40] battle of Briskersarred D company had just lost their commander Tim Brathweigh, lost a
[00:02:48] foot and gained a military cross and 18 platoon their commander.
[00:02:58] So that right there is the beginning of a book that we're going to look at today.
[00:03:05] It's called 18 platoon.
[00:03:07] It's written by a guy named Sydney Jerry, J.A.R. Y. who was born in Essex in 1924.
[00:03:17] When the army in 1942 was a private soldier in 1943 he was commissioned and from 19 from July
[00:03:27] of 1944 until June of 1945 he served as the platoon commander for 18 platoon.
[00:03:35] And the chances of survival for an infantry subaltern in a rifle company during the
[00:03:45] campaign in northwest Europe or slim most survived for only a few weeks.
[00:03:51] Sydney Jerry survived 10 months from July 1944 when he took command of 18 platoon in
[00:03:59] Normandy until the end of the war near Bremen in early May of 1945.
[00:04:06] So this guy this is this is amazing this guy, Sydney Jerry he's the only platoon commander
[00:04:15] in the British second army to survive as a platoon commander from Normandy to the German
[00:04:22] surrender one guy, one guy, and this is the guy.
[00:04:30] It's amazing and you're going to see that his attitude is I mean the lessons that he learned
[00:04:39] he was young coming in he was 20 years old 20-year old platoon commander coming in in
[00:04:44] the experience kind of lived a sheltered life you got to check out some pictures of him
[00:04:48] he has that look to he looks like you know sheltered looks like a little young whipper
[00:04:53] snapper.
[00:04:56] So we'll go back to the book here as he breaks down what a platoon was at this time.
[00:05:01] In 1944 the war establishment of a British infantry platoon was 36 men.
[00:05:06] It consisted of three rifle sections each of 10 men including a bread gunner each
[00:05:11] commanded by a corpel or sometimes a land sergeant there was also a small platoon head
[00:05:16] quarters with a two inch mortar detachment a p-out which was of anti tank weapon.
[00:05:25] The platoon sergeant and the commanders Batman slash runner on July 31st 18 platoon consisted
[00:05:36] of 17 all ranks 12 of whom were recent reinforcements.
[00:05:42] He'll one 12 and brick cigar had claimed the rest.
[00:05:48] So think about that you're supposed to have 36 people in your platoon and they have 17
[00:05:56] of which 12 are replacements which means that 29 people had been casualties.
[00:06:04] There's seven people that had been either killed or wounded.
[00:06:08] There's sorry seven people out of this 36 that hadn't been killed or wounded that remained
[00:06:11] in the platoon right now.
[00:06:13] So that's what we're talking about here.
[00:06:16] And again he's coming in no combat experience.
[00:06:19] He rolls in and we're going back to the book.
[00:06:21] I sensed instantly that a tight grip was required particularly so because those few who survived
[00:06:29] till one 12 had witnessed what was without a doubt the most horrific tragedy that befell
[00:06:35] the battalion during the entire campaign.
[00:06:42] So he's about to explain what they had been through.
[00:06:44] He wasn't there for it but he knew and he had heard what they had been through.
[00:06:47] And I'm going to say that again this is the most horrific tragedy for the entire campaign.
[00:06:52] This is what they're coming off of and this is who he's going to take over for.
[00:06:55] This is what they had been through.
[00:06:57] Back to the book during a company night attack one of our soldiers had been hit in the lower
[00:07:02] chest by a rifle or machine gun bullet.
[00:07:06] Passing through his body it had not killed him outright.
[00:07:10] The bullets devilish course lay through the soldiers webbing equipment pouch which contained
[00:07:16] a 77 phosphorus smoke grenade which exploded.
[00:07:23] But on barbed wire the poor soldier laid disemboweled for all around to see his writhing body
[00:07:31] a smoking mass of burning phosphorus.
[00:07:37] Responding to his agonized screams to put him out of his misery his platoon commander shot
[00:07:43] him through the heart.
[00:07:46] And finally through the head after the poor man's final frenzyed pleas.
[00:07:53] Their sir through the head.
[00:08:00] Doug Proctor was witness to this sublimely courageous incident which seared itself upon all
[00:08:07] our hearts.
[00:08:13] So that's what you're going to take over for.
[00:08:15] Can you do that?
[00:08:17] I mean is that like legal you know like if they found out that that happened.
[00:08:22] I have no idea what the legal ramifications are.
[00:08:26] But the moral weight on the shoulders of the men that witness that is unbelievably.
[00:08:36] It's hard to imagine what that feels like.
[00:08:43] Back to the book to the NCOs.
[00:08:45] Sergeant Jim Kingston and Corporal Doug Proctor immediately reported to me and explained
[00:08:51] that forcefully and in great detail the poor stayed the platoon as they knew it to be.
[00:08:56] So you've got these guys these are the senior enlisted guys in the platoon Jim Kingston
[00:09:00] and Doug Proctor and you're going to hear a lot about them.
[00:09:03] And they're coming to him.
[00:09:04] Here's this new guy checking in and they're coming to him and they're you know telling
[00:09:07] him how what what a bad state the platoon is in.
[00:09:12] Back to the book while they did so I was conscious of being weighed up was I fit to be
[00:09:16] their platoon commander.
[00:09:18] They were responsible anxious and discriminating NCOs that stands for non-commissioned officer.
[00:09:24] It's the senior enlisted guys and my apprenticeship was to start immediately.
[00:09:31] They were startled by my attire previously warned by a young officer who'd fought in
[00:09:35] Tunisia that battle dress was most unsuitable for brat battle.
[00:09:41] I'd come prepared and sand colored corduroy trousers and a stout pullover not unlike that
[00:09:46] now warned throughout the army.
[00:09:49] Among my prejudices was an acute dislike of steel helmets they gave me headaches.
[00:09:54] On exercises in England I had been obliged to wear one but the surge of individualism
[00:10:00] which now engulfed me convinced me that this was an article of equipment best left out
[00:10:04] of battle.
[00:10:06] So he's he shows up and he's kind of dressed out of uniform.
[00:10:10] Doesn't want to wear his helmet wearing corduroy pants.
[00:10:14] Back to the book Battle School's in England had insisted that off infantry officers should
[00:10:18] wear the same equipment and dress as their soldiers the idea being that they could not
[00:10:22] be then be so easily identified by enemy snipers.
[00:10:27] They also decreed that one should carry a rifle or a stand gun.
[00:10:32] Clearly this was ridiculous.
[00:10:34] How on earth could your own soldiers recognize you in the heat of battle if you went through
[00:10:38] such lengths to disguise?
[00:10:40] He had the same attitude as Lieutenant Lee in Korea that was wearing the orange vest you
[00:10:46] remember that?
[00:10:48] So he could be identified in battle by his own men.
[00:10:52] That's what this guy's attitude is like I'm not going to dress like everyone else
[00:10:54] they need to beat they need to know who that I'm out there.
[00:10:57] They need to be able to see me.
[00:10:59] Back to the book.
[00:11:00] I dispense with the rifle or stand gun too because I'm hopelessly short sighted and I did
[00:11:05] not fancy trying to command a platoon while got up like a Christmas tree meaning covered
[00:11:10] in a bunch of gear.
[00:11:12] As a concession to impending battle I sported a 45-colt automatic pistol with two spare
[00:11:17] magazines.
[00:11:20] The 38-n field revolver then general issue throughout the army managed to combine total
[00:11:24] mechanical liability with complete ineffectiveness.
[00:11:26] I once fired chick shots from one at a target pinned to a plywood board none of which even
[00:11:34] penetrated the board.
[00:11:37] Neither did I hit the target which gave me little confidence in this weapon.
[00:11:40] The nine pounds I paid for the cult proved a sound investment.
[00:11:44] So there's a lot of people that like to talk about what type of side arm there you've got
[00:11:50] a big proponent for the cult 45 the old classic.
[00:11:56] Again important to remember that he's not even carrying a rifle because he knows his job
[00:12:00] of sleep and I used to do it when we had seals seal leaders that would spend too much
[00:12:06] time on their gun.
[00:12:07] I would say hey you know what they used to carry in the Marine Corps in the army.
[00:12:11] If you were leader you know what they'd carry the carry a pistol.
[00:12:14] So give me your rifle and we take it from them.
[00:12:16] You need to be leading not shooting.
[00:12:20] Lave talks about that a lot.
[00:12:22] Yeah it's very you know Lave talks about his mentality which was he wants to shoot.
[00:12:27] He's from Texas.
[00:12:29] You know he wants to shoot his gun and he realized hey I'm not here to shoot my gun.
[00:12:33] I'm here to you know be at high port and be off my gun and leading.
[00:12:38] That's my job and these guys took it to the point where they're not even carrying a rifle.
[00:12:44] Now he's talking about a senior leadership a little bit his enlisted leadership.
[00:12:47] Back to the book Jim Kingston was short, quiet and shy with the shootness of a countryman
[00:12:53] although he had lived and worked in Bristol all his life.
[00:12:57] He barely raised his voice but had total command over his section.
[00:13:02] There was no argument with Jim that that's another thing you'd find about this book.
[00:13:07] This book it it it takes so many stereotypes from from from Sydney Jerry on down like
[00:13:14] the stereotypes are just out the window of the way this between was and there's a classic
[00:13:18] example you know you picture the senior listed guy this you know gunny highway scenario
[00:13:23] not happening.
[00:13:26] Now he talks about Doug Proctor back to the book Doug Proctor although a summer set came from
[00:13:31] notting him.
[00:13:33] Also short he was positive direct with unfailing common sense and like Jim quietly
[00:13:39] dominated his section.
[00:13:42] So there's another and I got to see some great leaders.
[00:13:46] There's some guys that were in where in to you bruiser that were quiet when they were
[00:13:50] in to you bruiser and when I was putting them through their next workup I was thinking
[00:13:55] myself hey are they going to be able to step up and lead and that's exactly how they did
[00:13:58] it right there they were just like quiet professional and controlling but they run their
[00:14:04] mouth to get it done.
[00:14:08] Back to the book I had not previously met any platoon like this one they were quiet
[00:14:14] thoughtful and unabraceive soldiers there was little swearing and there existed a tranquility
[00:14:20] in their relationships with one another.
[00:14:24] Their eyes implored me not to fail them.
[00:14:28] Two factors were immediately apparent firstly the platoon required quiet firm and confident
[00:14:35] leadership.
[00:14:37] So that's a good assessment you know you can see these guys don't need anybody yelling
[00:14:42] at him and here's the second point secondly if I failed to use my imagination and
[00:14:48] slavishly followed the battle school drills most of the platoon would not survive another
[00:14:54] major battle.
[00:14:56] So all the things he learned the standard typical stuff that he learned that wasn't
[00:15:01] an work and it hadn't worked that's why they had so many replacements come in.
[00:15:06] Back to the book in fact the problem that faced me with 18 platoon was identical to the
[00:15:11] one facing general Montgomery army group commander how to fight and defeat the cream of the
[00:15:16] SS Panzer divisions in the closed Normandy Bokaj and still retained sufficient infantry riflemen
[00:15:24] to live in fight tomorrow.
[00:15:27] The problem was a difficult one obviously I must set an example and always lead from the front
[00:15:33] however if I became over eager and got myself killed or wounded the whole object of my previous
[00:15:40] training and my responsibility to my platoon would be cast away.
[00:15:44] I would in fact be letting down a team platoon so he knows he's got to lead from the front
[00:15:49] same time he knows he's got to stay alive.
[00:15:52] He knows he got to stay alive and this Normandy fighting here he talks about Normandy being
[00:15:58] a defender's paradise meaning when you're on the defense and Normandy it's it's a paradise
[00:16:04] for the people on defense which was the Germans back to the book we fought from one head
[00:16:09] road to the next up torturous overgrown sunken lanes ideal country for the German defender
[00:16:15] but a palling for attacking infantry however no arm but infantry could take and hold the Normandy
[00:16:22] Bokaj Bokaj is like a trees shrubs mankled together.
[00:16:31] It was here that I served my apprenticeship and the platoon developed its character which despite
[00:16:36] constant depletion by casualties over the coming ten months it would retain until the end of the war.
[00:16:42] It was also here that in perceptibly I became possessive with a tain platoon it was mine
[00:16:49] to be guarded with an almost maternal jealousy that resented all criticism of my soldiers.
[00:16:57] That's building at this point.
[00:17:00] Hmm, most important it was in the Bokaj that I began to appreciate how vital is grip
[00:17:11] grip on oneself grip on one soldiers and grip on the situation.
[00:17:20] Unlike characters in novels and films most men react nervously to real battle conditions
[00:17:25] discipline and regimental pride are supports but in decisive moments of great danger the grip of the
[00:17:35] leader on the lead is paramount. Infantry section in platoon commanders must possess the minds and
[00:17:44] hearts of their soldiers. Strength of character is not enough successful leadership in battle
[00:17:50] although complex and intangible always seem to me to depend on two factors.
[00:17:58] Firstly soldiers must have confidence in their leaders professional ability and secondly they must
[00:18:05] trust them as men. So there you go they gotta have confidence in your ability and trust.
[00:18:14] And this trust topic comes up all the time and I use the the word relationships
[00:18:19] kind of interchangeably with trust. I always have to remind myself to point that out that when I'm
[00:18:24] talking about relationships and building relationships and business on the battlefield in life
[00:18:30] relationships are a trust that's what they are. We build your relationship on trust and I guess you could have
[00:18:36] you know relationships that aren't built on trust that there was like another thing you know
[00:18:40] I have a relationship with that guy but you know but that's not the one that's what I'm talking about
[00:18:44] about. I'm a good relationship. Yeah. Those are based on trust and those are obviously
[00:18:50] the the second most important thing to him. So first is confidence in their ability and second is trust.
[00:18:58] I like this part. It helps too if a leader has the reputation of being lucky.
[00:19:04] Field Marshal Montgomery placed great importance on the principle of making the enemy dance to your tune.
[00:19:10] No where is this more important than in Poutooning Company Battle? It is decisive because if you do not
[00:19:17] dominate events your enemy will. There you go. That's your jits. You're right there. Be
[00:19:24] first. Be first. Be first. Yeah. You gotta be first. You gotta dictate the pace. You gotta you gotta be proactive.
[00:19:30] Hmm. Back to the book Sound Leadership like True Love to which I suspect it is closely related
[00:19:40] is all powerful. It can overcome the seemingly impossible and it's effect on both leader and
[00:19:49] lead is profound and lasting. Even after the passage of 40 years, brief mention of the battalions
[00:19:56] finest officers and NCOs bring brings a smile to the faces of the survivors of my Poutoon.
[00:20:03] Their resentment of those who failed to lead when it mattered most still runs astonishingly deep.
[00:20:12] So leadership can overcome seemingly impossible. This is why leadership is the most important
[00:20:19] thing on the battlefield. Now he's going into his. So that's kind of his assessment and this is
[00:20:28] based on his experience which we're about to get into. Then he does more assessments. There's more
[00:20:33] more he talks more about what he learns about leadership as a whole. But you have to kind of
[00:20:37] understand what he went through and figure out where he learned it from. The first, his first command
[00:20:43] in battle here we go back to the book. We were to attack this rugged hill from the west with the
[00:20:50] fifth wheelchairs on our right and the fourth wheelchairs in reserves. The approach march to our
[00:20:56] forming up place had been a nightmare of swirling a brace of dust, shelling and the stench
[00:21:01] of exhaust fumes from the tanks which transported us forward. We were due to attack at 1500 hours
[00:21:09] with a company leading on the right and B company on the left. We followed B company. B company
[00:21:16] moved off quickly with our company deployed about 300 yards behind. Their forward platoon
[00:21:22] had barely crossed the stream when concentrated spend outfire came from the front and from both
[00:21:28] flanks. So spend outfire. This is kind of a generic term that the brits used for German machine guns.
[00:21:35] They're primarily talking about the MG 42 which is a big belt-fed machine gun. Very similar to
[00:21:42] a modern what we have M60 or Mark 48 machine gun. A big heavy belt-fed machine gun
[00:21:49] which lays down the insane amounts of suppressive fire. So here we go. They're getting hit from
[00:21:56] both flanks with these machine guns back to the book. There must have been about 12 machine guns
[00:22:01] firing at one time. This devastating display of firepower stopped the battalion dead in its tracks.
[00:22:09] There was no way forward or around it and no way to retire. Some of the guns had engaged D company
[00:22:16] over the heads of B company and private Morrison 18 platoon was killed. So there's his first guy,
[00:22:23] lost. I like this the way he starts off this next sentence here. First word,
[00:22:31] powerless. So he's in his first combat situation. He's got one man killed and how does he feel
[00:22:37] powerless. Here we go. Powerless and crouching in a headrow. I tried to identify the Spanned
[00:22:42] Alphazicians. This proved impossible as they still kept up their crushing display of firepower.
[00:22:49] In my ignorance I expected that the enemy machine gunners would soon expand their ammunition.
[00:22:53] They did not. Nor did they in dozens of subsequent battles. So he's waiting for them to stop shooting.
[00:23:03] They don't. They just keep coming. Captain Scamel commanding A company was severely wounded.
[00:23:10] Major Thomas commanding B company was killed. Their companies were badly cut up on our right
[00:23:15] the fifth wheelchairs had faired no better with their CO killed and casualties mounting.
[00:23:21] Their attack also foundered. As the afternoon turned to evening,
[00:23:27] shelling and mortoring increased much of it passing over our heads. Thus isolating us from the
[00:23:32] reserve battalion. So the Germans are mortoring over their heads so that the reserve battalion can't
[00:23:38] get to them. Shortly before dark, a troop of tanks arrived. One of which was able to cross the
[00:23:45] stream and give us some brave, close support. Undoubtedly it increased our morale but it was not enough
[00:23:51] to get the whole attack underway again. Any movement by B company to our front brought down instant
[00:23:58] and concentrated Spanned Alphazer. The same applied to us a few hundred yards to their rear.
[00:24:07] Fortunately the enemy did not seem to have any anti-tank guns so our armored friends
[00:24:12] were comparatively safe. But the fact remained that about 12 Spanned O's had halted a battalion
[00:24:19] attack without our locating even one of them. That's what suppressive fire does. That's what a
[00:24:26] big machine gun does. You got 12 big machine guns that's stopping 700 people from moving.
[00:24:33] That's called suppressive fire. That's why you don't when you heard Roger Hayden talk about
[00:24:38] how many heavy weapons that how many machine guns they'd carry. They think they had nine
[00:24:43] out of opportunity to 14. That's why. As Dusk fell a new plan was made. C and D companies would
[00:24:52] advance and single file through A and B companies and using the cover of darkness infiltrate
[00:24:57] the enemy position. Once through them we would climb to the top of the hill and consolidate.
[00:25:02] A cold and damp mist descended which with fading light gave us welcome cover but also
[00:25:07] wretched discomfort. We were still in shirt sleeves which became damp from the sweat of our
[00:25:12] exertion climbing the steep lower slopes. A lurk with pistol in hand I anticipated a sudden brush
[00:25:19] with an enemy post. Not a shot was fired. By some miracle we passed right through their positions
[00:25:26] without being detected or luck had changed. So you're going to see quite a bit of that is as they
[00:25:36] were what the Germans were doing at this point defending hard but then instead of staying and dying
[00:25:40] in most cases they would retreat. And so they'd fight really hard for a while and then retreat.
[00:25:46] They'd advance if they had an opportunity but you're going to see a lot of that.
[00:25:50] Back to the book we now had to advance across a large orchard. So I deployed the
[00:25:54] cartoon with two sections up and urged them forward as fast as possible. Suddenly in the middle of
[00:25:59] the orchard we came across a young girl in a clean white dress sitting with her back to an
[00:26:04] apple tree sketching. Now I just talked about this the most of the random things that happen
[00:26:11] in combat and this is what I'm talking about and how do you train for that? How would you ever
[00:26:16] if you're running a battle problem to train people what are you going to do put a white girl
[00:26:20] in a white dress and then sitting with her back to a tree sketching? Doesn't make any sense?
[00:26:24] How do you deal with it? Back to the book she seemed quite oblivious to the mortar fire in 18
[00:26:28] boutunes warlike appearance. How to stop pretty young girls from interfering with battle
[00:26:33] had not been part of my training as an officer cadet nor had it appeared on the curriculum of
[00:26:38] any battle schools which without exception had dispared of my future as an infantry soldier.
[00:26:46] Fortunately there was a farmhouse beside the orchard and it had a seller where she was persuaded
[00:26:51] to shelter while we got on with our battle. I reported what it occurred to our company commander
[00:26:57] who told me that I was being quite ridiculous really Jerry you're being absurd.
[00:27:01] With that remark I realized that he had been a schoolmaster, a breed with whom I had been in conflict
[00:27:10] until quite recently. A breed with whom I'd been in conflict with until quite recently. So this guy
[00:27:16] has the attitude of a schoolmaster which in England is a little bit different and especially in the
[00:27:23] 1930s and 40s you know the strict I think of a pink Floyd you know the headmaster
[00:27:28] how can you have it you putting if you don't eat you meet that guy that's what he's comparing them to.
[00:27:34] His next sarcastic remark I would be obliged Jerry if you would kindly get on with the war.
[00:27:40] He gave me little indication of what he wanted my opportunity to do,
[00:27:43] nor did it inspire confidence. We were still over 200 yards from the meadow surrounded by corn fields
[00:27:49] which was the company's objective and now became apparent that our company commander had an
[00:27:54] academic and detached attitude of mind which made it quite impossible for him to come in the company.
[00:28:01] So the company the company commander's not in the game. There's one thing to be detached from your
[00:28:06] emotions to make sure you're not getting caught up in the mayhem was another thing to be so detached
[00:28:10] that you're not even aware of what's going on and actually I had a name for this when I was running
[00:28:16] training. Battlefield aloofness is what I call them because we'd get these guys you get these
[00:28:22] guys and we'd be running these crazy battlefield problems on them and there'd be not to be crazy
[00:28:27] and you'd go remember one time there's the the task unit commander there's all this mayhem going on.
[00:28:32] The Patoons are getting overrun and people are getting me you know shot with paintball and they're
[00:28:36] not hitting their objectives and I walk over to the company commander he's sitting in a home v
[00:28:40] I'm sorry the the to you commander the troop commander he's sitting in a home v
[00:28:45] and I like the windows up because they're both windows but he doesn't want to get shot with paintball
[00:28:49] the windows up he's just sitting in there he's got his head set on of his radio like knock on the door
[00:28:54] I'm like hey man you know what what's going on out there he's like well I'm I'm trying to gather that
[00:29:01] information right now and I'm like bro you eager to gather anything here but dust yeah you need to
[00:29:08] get out there and make something happen because his idea was you know I need to be detached
[00:29:12] which I talk about being detached all the time but there's a difference between being and as you
[00:29:17] see the same thing in businesses where the the the boss or the leader has no idea what's
[00:29:22] happening on the ground floor right he has no what the the workers are doing so he's so far to
[00:29:27] attach that he's he's you know let them eat cake right that's where that's where this guy is
[00:29:32] wait so why is that that's because what they they just in a way just depend on them to just handle it
[00:29:38] on their own they think they're gonna handle it on their own which is a good attitude to have until
[00:29:42] they can't handle it anymore right once they can't once a once a team or a platoon or a business
[00:29:48] you can't handle it on their own and they're failing you have to get you have to go do your
[00:29:54] job you have to step up you have to step down as leader you have to get in there and square that
[00:29:58] stuff away yeah so it's that without the get in their part right it's just like all right just
[00:30:05] call me when it's done yeah and and and the problem is somebody's got to sort these problems out
[00:30:10] yeah yeah they're there they're real and and they're not getting better and you might take you a
[00:30:15] minute's go okay wait a second this these problems aren't getting better what should I do
[00:30:19] once you realize that they're not getting better you got to get in there make it happen yeah
[00:30:24] this guy's not doing that back to the book he'd be behaved like a superseelious
[00:30:29] umpire on an exercise in England at any moment I expected him to had managed me for bad tactics
[00:30:35] and the schoolboy in me feared that I might be sent to the headmaster for beating so they continue on
[00:30:43] we seized the highest point which faced the enemy and the other platoons quickly deployed
[00:30:47] to give all around defense of the other flanks after being murdered the company required no
[00:30:53] encouragement to dig in the real motivator getting mortar will make you shovel hard yeah the company
[00:31:01] commander walked round the platoon positions I ain't everyone with distaste nothing pleased him
[00:31:10] and he suddenly announced that he must sleep which he did in my slit trench getting not a good
[00:31:15] feeling about this company commander just looking at everyone like negatively and then all of a
[00:31:21] sudden he wants to sleep I don't like this guy and of course he sleeps in in my trench
[00:31:27] mm now this is good there's another officer that's there that's present a guardian angel was
[00:31:34] watching over us in the guise of Dennis Clark Dennis some years older than me was exceptionally
[00:31:41] kind to me and tolerant of my immaturity pay attention this is good he took my took me by the arm a
[00:31:49] few paces away from my platoon who the hell is in command of this shambles sunny I muttered the
[00:31:57] unconvincing explanation that it was our company commander looking me straight in the eye he drew a
[00:32:03] deep breath which managed to express both exasperation at my explanation and sympathy with my
[00:32:09] predicament you and I know that he is not so what are you going to do about it I asked him if I
[00:32:19] should take command his expression hardened yes you bloody well should some demonstration of loyalty
[00:32:28] to my wretched company commander was obviously required I blurred it out that he was really a school master
[00:32:33] and not a professional soldier so he's kind of defending him Dennis put his arm around my shoulder
[00:32:39] and whispered in my ear so was eyes sunny so that's awesome the company commander is not leading
[00:32:52] and this this guy Dennis Clark quit think he's artillery gunner pulls this guy's head aside and
[00:33:00] just throw you better take charge of this and you better do it quick back to the book we were now
[00:33:05] well dug in on our objective the company commander was still asleep Dennis was arranging defensive
[00:33:11] fire tasks for me I had assumed command of D company without a word passing between our company
[00:33:19] commander and me in practice it made not the slightest difference because because like a bad
[00:33:26] preparatory school master he saw his role as one of examination and criticism this he continued to
[00:33:34] do despite the incredulous stairs of the ncos so he's taken charge and and he hasn't even said anything
[00:33:40] he's just done it he just took charge and all the guys the guys continue to walk around did
[00:33:45] stare glare at everyone but that doesn't matter so this is a classic example your leader's not
[00:33:52] leading I've given this answer to so many times but this is a classic this might be one of the best
[00:33:57] examples your leaders not leading that's fine good step up and lead yourself hmm back to the book
[00:34:05] by dawn the enemy had retired an elements of the Italian move forward to consolidate and strength
[00:34:09] and decoupling his position the whole operation was very amateur there was no doubt that the new
[00:34:15] company commander could not command a company in battle nor could I who is just beginning to master
[00:34:22] the rudiments of commanding a platoon he was removed within a few hours I think Dennis had something to
[00:34:28] do with it but he was not the kind of man to confide in 20 year old sub-alterns so that's another
[00:34:34] classic thing right there is that this guy Dennis who is another officer probably went and said
[00:34:41] to get this guy out of here get this company commander out of here but when he does it the company
[00:34:45] commander gets removed and and he doesn't say anything to Sydney Jerry he doesn't you to
[00:34:51] rattle it out or brag about her make a big deal he doesn't say anything just happens it's like
[00:34:56] when I had a mutiny and my platoon and the commanding officer's like no we're not firing anyone you
[00:35:01] guys get out of here shut your mouth and go back to work no we're like okay and then a few days
[00:35:06] a little like a week later he got fired but he wasn't because of us as far as we knew right no one
[00:35:11] said anything we just knew he got fired yeah well what reason hmm we knew we had something to do with it
[00:35:17] but same thing so you don't need to create a distrust and disloyalty and and not even just those
[00:35:25] words but you don't need to create drama yeah right don't create the drama yeah that guy's
[00:35:30] going to go in somewhere he's getting building someone else hey you guys want everybody yeah yeah we're
[00:35:34] not doing that we're not doing that we're not building up our own ego by disparaging someone else's
[00:35:40] let's worry about the whole team that sounds like a good idea to me yeah back to the book I now have
[00:35:47] little doubt that for the first two months in Normandy we lack two things comprehensive and imaginative
[00:35:52] training and personal experience of battle we were also seriously handicapped by our casual
[00:35:58] attitude too many junior officers did not think for themselves and persistently relied on the
[00:36:05] narrow teaching of battle schools who's dogma had assumed the proportion of holy rit so whatever
[00:36:11] he was taught he was taught that that's the only way you can ever do it and these guys and if
[00:36:16] talk about this many times on the on the podcast the goal when I was running training was to actually
[00:36:22] get the people to think it wasn't get sure you have to establish the baseline standard operating
[00:36:27] procedures that's great and those need to be rock solid but once those things are established you
[00:36:33] need to make people understand that you don't always follow them and you need to call off a piece
[00:36:39] of that standard operating procedure to insert some other thing and bring in another standard
[00:36:43] operating procedure and mix and match them so you get something that's effective you need to
[00:36:46] think that's what a leader needs to do a leader needs to think back to the book the British
[00:36:51] infantry platoons and companies were overtrained and board stiff with basic infantry tactics
[00:36:56] which as far as they went were good much of this training unfortunately had been in the hands
[00:37:00] of battle school instructors who themselves lacked battle experience and imagination
[00:37:08] these tended to become pedagogues disciples of DS directing staff solution
[00:37:15] about which no argument could be tolerated so DS is that he be he mentions in a bunch
[00:37:20] like that's their solution the directing staff you can't argue with them they're the they're the
[00:37:24] cadre possibly like most of our entry infantry they suffered some consequences of the pre-roar
[00:37:33] shortage of creativity intelligent regimental officers two few of them were professionally
[00:37:39] dedicated to the extent that they could visualize how battles would be fought and identify the
[00:37:44] problems that might arise when planning them they seemed to lack the capacity to think relentlessly
[00:37:50] through these things until solutions were found much of their time had been spent policing the British
[00:37:56] empire also unlike the Germans we British instinctively avoid displays of keenness
[00:38:04] the enthusiast particularly if he is innovative isn't embarrassment
[00:38:08] thus the battlefield became our teacher and inevitably it exacted a grim price in blood and time
[00:38:20] so as you're training you got to push yourself hard you've got to put yourself in situations
[00:38:28] I don't care what you're training for I don't care if you're training for combat in a
[00:38:31] sea of platoon in an army infantry platoon or if you're in the business world and you're training your leaders to handle
[00:38:38] situations or you're training your customer service reps to handle situations what no matter which one of
[00:38:44] those you're in you need to push people hard you need to put them in worst case scenario so that they
[00:38:48] need to learn how they need to learn how to think to get out of those problems
[00:38:52] hmm I recall within bearishment an incident at 45th Infantry Division battle school during the
[00:39:02] spring of 1944 an exceptionally tall and good-natured Canadian officer had been sent to the school to
[00:39:08] give a talk on the street fighting he had experienced nearly it was an interesting talk but some of
[00:39:14] his advice ran contrary to that being taught in the school when the lecture was over the chief and
[00:39:21] instructor with insulting condensation thank this shy and kindly man for a vivid word picture
[00:39:28] and turning to the students warned us that as this officer's experience was probably unusual
[00:39:36] we had best not stray from the DS solution as taught at that school so you got to combat veteran
[00:39:45] come and back with experience from street fighting in Italy and he'd come back with some different tactics
[00:39:53] and they tell him you don't listen that guy that's just a rare case close mind will get you killed
[00:40:04] this is starting to talk about they're overall sort of formulation of combat plans and how they
[00:40:12] operated back to the book the most successful actions by 18 Paltoon were fought without the support of
[00:40:18] artillery or armor we had learned in a hard school how to skirmish infiltrate and edge our way forward
[00:40:27] the right or left flanking platoon attack so beloved of the battle school staff would rarely succeed in
[00:40:33] the Normandy Bocage I remember with harbing locked into timetables of meticulously planned
[00:40:41] large battles these invariably left the junior infantry commander no scope for exploitation
[00:40:47] if you found a gap in the enemy defenses adherence to artillery program which rarely could be altered
[00:40:53] effectively stopped any personal initiative so what that saying is you have these the artillery
[00:40:59] that's gonna drop bombs they're gonna bomb or strike with artillery at certain regions in certain
[00:41:04] times so you might see the enemy running away and you have a chance to gain a superior tactical position
[00:41:10] but you can't because you know that that's where the bombs are going to be hitting in the next 12
[00:41:14] minutes so you can't go so now you sit and wait so he got locked in by that back to the book to me
[00:41:21] the preparations for these battles assumed the demented proportion of a cough got like
[00:41:25] nightmare ballet in which the anonymous they ordained that we must perform a choreographed ritual
[00:41:33] dance macabre I felt trapped and helpless no solo parts were written into the score nor was
[00:41:42] their scope for small groups of performers in this mammoth ballet of machines undoubtedly far shadows
[00:41:50] from the song that the battle song clouded my emotions but instinct told me that this kind of show
[00:41:56] would be unlikely to succeed the irony was that this support was planned and given to the infantry
[00:42:02] with the best of intentions the song had cast its shadows on our artillery and armored commanders
[00:42:09] both genuinely believed that their hands that in their hands they had the pancia which would protect
[00:42:17] us the infantry from the terrible slaughter of 1916 instead they put us in a straight jacket so
[00:42:25] very interesting viewpoint and and it's something that we need to pay attention to because you've got
[00:42:33] to be flexible you've got to be flexible and that's exactly what he's talking about and these they
[00:42:38] would make these plans that were so comprehensive and there was no you weren't allowed to deviate
[00:42:42] from the plants and you're not allowed to deviate from the plans and something starts going
[00:42:46] differently than what you expected you're trapped yeah to a phone back to the book far too much time
[00:42:55] had been spent fitting the infantry and armor junior leaders into the big picture and to little
[00:43:02] time spent training them and stimulating their imagination initiative an individual resourcefulness
[00:43:10] to probe draw conclusions infiltrate and exploit weakness in the enemy's dispositions so he's
[00:43:17] he's criticizing this lack of initiative lack of creativity and the training to get that initiative
[00:43:22] in creativity back to the book after the first of August 18 puttune never failed in any attack
[00:43:31] sometimes we took a little longer than planned but we always got there in the end
[00:43:34] in defense we never lost one yard of ground nor did the enemy ever penetrate arpotune position
[00:43:43] and we always dominated no man's land with our patrols whether persistent patrolling is always
[00:43:49] sound policy I will argue elsewhere so he's saying once he kind of figured it out they didn't
[00:43:57] lose anymore they didn't lose any attacks and they didn't give up any ground talks about the
[00:44:01] armor our armor was accused of being tiger shy meaning scared of the tiger tanks of the Germans
[00:44:07] and I don't wonder why the devastation caused by a single hit of an 88 millimeter armor piercing
[00:44:15] shell needed to be seen to be believed and this is an overall statement for the infantry and
[00:44:23] armor the British second army the sheer ferocity of the fighting in Normandy came as a
[00:44:28] salature solitary shock for which they were in some ways unprepared so it was devastating for
[00:44:37] these guys now we start pushing out out of out of Normandy and pushing into the scene
[00:44:48] and here we go they're pushing in the next day 28 August D company occupied a harricort
[00:44:54] this is the only operation of war that I ever known to go precisely as planned our supporting
[00:45:01] field regimen softened up the objective with their 25 pounders the company advanced over
[00:45:06] open farmland in a macular formation and consolidated exactly on time the only thing lacking
[00:45:13] was an enemy total bag one day's German one dead German and one dead hair rabbit
[00:45:23] right so the only one that everyone well was when there was no enemy to fight against there was
[00:45:28] there was two Germans one of them was dead the other one was dazed and that was their their last battle
[00:45:35] in France
[00:45:39] back to the book experience and Normandy had removed
[00:45:43] anxieties regarding commanding and under strength put to and so he hasn't had enough man he's supposed
[00:45:48] to have 36 he's had like 17 18 19 in the attack particularly at night up till two
[00:45:53] nip full strength is just too big to maneuver quickly
[00:45:57] three rifle sections of about 20 above about seven man each plus headquarters was ideal
[00:46:04] in defense it was a different matter the more riflemen on the ground the better
[00:46:08] our short stay in the men's ale millon gave me time to think
[00:46:15] the first opportunity to do so since i took command of 18 puttune it also gave me time to
[00:46:21] meet and talk with other young officers in the battalion it was then that I realized that 18
[00:46:27] puttune was no ordinary puttune it had some undefineable magic no quarrels little swearing
[00:46:36] despite the war that was the despite the war there was something peaceful about it
[00:46:40] a helping hand was always available for anybody the emotional links were firm and true
[00:46:50] I was a happy man so he realizes once he starts talking the other puttune commanders
[00:46:56] he's got this really special puttune that gets along great and he's he realizes it
[00:47:03] back to the book no young officer can command a puttune in battle on his own
[00:47:06] in Normandy I'd seen puttune commander served by poor nco struggling to gain some semblance of
[00:47:14] control over their but wielded and frightened men I'd also seen puttunes with good nco's go to pieces
[00:47:22] in the hands of an indifference officer Jim Kingston Doug Proctor and Owen cheeseman set the standard
[00:47:31] n-tone for 18 puttune without them I as the puttune commander would have joined the ranks of so many
[00:47:39] poor young officers who never achieved grip now going to another we're putting together another plan
[00:47:56] as they're advancing and obviously this is a long book I'm doing an abridge version hitting
[00:48:02] some highlights you should get the book obviously get the book by the book back to the book
[00:48:09] at zero four hundred hours on twenty-fourth of September Douglass this is the new company commander
[00:48:15] Douglass held along oh group by candlelight in the seller of the farmhouse at which much to
[00:48:22] his annoyance I kept falling asleep we were ordered to advance straight eastward down a narrow
[00:48:28] country lane from the orchard to the main road and consolidate after the oh group and oh group is
[00:48:36] what they call the when their officers get together and pass the word knick called oh group after the
[00:48:41] oh group I made myself unpopular by asking why we're advancing towards an area of considerable
[00:48:46] German opposition when my patrol found a better route by which we might outflank the enemy so
[00:48:53] that so he's saying hey wait what because his patrol his puttune had been out on a patrol and found
[00:48:58] a better route and he's asking why and he kind of gets shut down I was just twenty years old at the
[00:49:05] time and even then I knew I was incapable of disputing orders without giving a fence we started at
[00:49:12] zero six hundred hours two platoons leading on either side of the track the third falling in
[00:49:17] single filed down the track itself on either side were the small holdings were small holdings
[00:49:22] a few allotments in bungalows surrounded by small picket fences but platoons advanced through the
[00:49:30] gardens and vegetable patches and passed on either side of the bungalows the rear section
[00:49:35] searching each one quickly and while they're searching these little bungalows as their
[00:49:40] own patrol they find this back to the book during one of these hurried searches one section found
[00:49:46] a Dutch family the widdages father mother son and daughter riddled by schmites or fire
[00:49:55] that's a German machine gun they lay in awkward postures of death amid their ransacked home
[00:50:01] a visit from the SS no tears came nor did they come a half an hour later when we came upon
[00:50:11] the charred wreckage of an american decoda it had carried US parachute troops the 82nd airborne
[00:50:17] division and their torn and burnt bodies littered the orchard like charred and mutilated rag dolls
[00:50:23] it was a further iron or irony attached to the front window in what remained of the decoda's
[00:50:32] cockpit was a tiny teddy bear untouched by flames two months before a lonely teddy bear and an
[00:50:40] impersonal pool of blood had brought forth tears now I was collected and objective when faced
[00:50:48] within the span of thirty minutes within a trotious murder and mass carnage by fire and he's
[00:50:55] referring there in the beginning of the book one of his first experiences he's by a slit trench
[00:51:02] and there's a dead guy soldier in it and there's a little teddy bear and and for some reason
[00:51:10] you know he's young he's in experience and it gets gets makes him super emotionally starts crying
[00:51:15] and and now he's a little further in the war he sees you know this horrible murdered family and these
[00:51:23] tragically you know burned and killed paratroopers and he's able to detach emotionally from it
[00:51:34] back to the book the enemy decided to make life unpleasant for us as possible by sudden unpredictable
[00:51:39] concentrations of heavy artillery right in the middle of our company area we called them stunks
[00:51:46] so he's gonna use that word it just means we're getting bombed one of these shells unfortunately
[00:51:51] fell right into one of sixteen platoon slit trenches no trace remained of the two men that were
[00:51:59] manning in it manning a brain in my platoon landscorpo jack Lee and private Peter Filmer
[00:52:07] were buried in the trench they shared other members of their section quickly dug them out unharmed
[00:52:13] very dirty and remarkably cheerful the self-propelled guns increased their activities
[00:52:21] filling the sky above the company with ugly black air bursts they could place these with
[00:52:28] uncanny accuracy to burst about twenty five feet above the road junction outside company headquarters
[00:52:33] the casualties mounted company sergeant major Sammy Jones and spot Martin the Jeepburg driver
[00:52:42] were both hit outside company HQ it was Sammy Jones who committed the battalion's only atrocity
[00:52:51] late one summer evening as the shadows from high trees and hedges fell across a small field
[00:52:57] the Normandy we took some young waffles and saw waffles and SS soldiers prisoner one of them a short
[00:53:05] stocky and fair youth of about eighteen proved insultingly truck-yland season the young
[00:53:13] loud by the scruff of his neck Sammy roared you can take that glint out of your eyes my boy
[00:53:19] and putting the wretched youth across his knees he gave his backside a sound whacking that is
[00:53:28] legit and that's again you know Sydney Jerry and he talks about how proud he is that his men
[00:53:36] his men's behavior is so upstanding throughout this whole miserable experience and even when they
[00:53:46] see atrocities committed like by the SS they still maintain their discipline and their character
[00:53:54] and this is this is what he does oh you you're a little punk kid I'm gonna spank you
[00:54:02] you know tough the SS soldier getting put over the knee and spanked so after the attack so now
[00:54:11] this is again this is happening after one of these attacks and the whole the whole basic premise of
[00:54:18] this book is attack rest attack rest attack rest so as I'm reading I'm kind of picking out some of
[00:54:26] the attacks that they're going on and they're just moving through France and then through Germany that's
[00:54:29] what it is I should've explained that earlier but this is after one of the attacks
[00:54:35] it's interesting he says this smiling faces vanished and the gray look returned once more
[00:54:40] men walked with one air cocked in the air for approaching shells and with a slight stoop
[00:54:47] if you remember when I was talking about JP I was talking about how like you'd see guys they have
[00:54:52] this magical little stoop yeah that's what he's talking about and JP didn't have that no stoop
[00:55:00] JP who stand up like you stoop left he was not yeah he was stoopless he was standing up ready to get
[00:55:05] some but these guys as and it's contrast because when they're on the attack they go into like JP mode
[00:55:13] they're standing up straight they're ready to get some but then once they're on the defense and
[00:55:17] they're just waiting to get shell they start to stoop they start to crouch a little bit he continues
[00:55:22] back to the book the jokes began to peed around and the cheerful good morning surf ceased
[00:55:28] when I went around the platoons at stand two morale was always higher during an attack
[00:55:34] sitting around and being sheldt is not an occupation to be recommended so there's a good lesson there
[00:55:43] if you or your team is being defensive about things your morale is going to go down because you're
[00:55:49] waiting to get hit so go on hit somebody you know go on the attack don't wait around don't let your
[00:55:55] morale drown here's another attack back to the book scrambling out of the culvert we set a fast
[00:56:08] pace up the side of the road to a company's positions this immediately brought small arms fire down
[00:56:15] on us but by then we were then 200 yards of their slit trenches so on we ran as fast as we could
[00:56:21] being soaked I began to steam my boots squelched and seemed to drag me back clawing at my feet as
[00:56:28] in a bad dream and stopping me from reaching the inviting cover of the slit trenches
[00:56:33] a company was dug in with two platoons forward in an orchard face to face to the enemy
[00:56:38] who were in dikes only a few yards beyond the third platoon was to the right rear protecting the
[00:56:44] open flank and company headquarters to the left rear centered on some farm buildings it was to these
[00:56:52] farm buildings that we ran hurling ourselves onto the straw on the barn floor we lay panting
[00:57:00] and gasping for breath john a cock a company commander appeared round the door of the barn
[00:57:07] he looked haggard and warned I doubt he had slept for a week the whole company area was covered
[00:57:16] by the most intense spandell fire and defensive and the defensive battle here was one of fire
[00:57:22] supremacy which the Germans had undoubtedly won a company's morale was low they had just lost
[00:57:29] hairy barns one of the platoon commanders who refusing to take cover strutted about an usual manner
[00:57:36] he took a complete burst of spandell fire under the arm
[00:57:40] hairy was an amazing and fearless fellow who didn't care a damn for anything
[00:57:47] even after the burst hit him he still lived for about three hours
[00:57:53] the men respected hairy and with their idle shot down in front of them they were very jumpy
[00:57:59] another time you have to watch out for morale obviously
[00:58:11] now if you remember this book started in the summer time and now we're starting to get
[00:58:19] towards fall and this this is something I never thought about before
[00:58:24] when fall comes you know the sun is up for a shorter period of time
[00:58:30] so here we go back to the book the nights became longer and the dawns gray and chilly
[00:58:35] the sun sets were red and vivid and the days though beautiful short and rapidly
[00:58:41] as the nights lengthened the hours of staggered lengthened and with them the mental and physical
[00:58:46] fatigue of the company so they have to stay up you know rotate through watches at night
[00:58:54] you just don't get to sleep the whole time so if it's if it's dark for longer you got to stay
[00:58:59] wake longer at night so it's starting to wear on the company itself
[00:59:06] back to the book there was there is one incident small room when remembered by itself
[00:59:11] in a life of such incidents but very but to me very vivid in my platoon there was a young lad aged
[00:59:19] 18 named Biddle he was of slight of build fair and looked a mere child he had a pleasant personality
[00:59:30] and was liked by everyone he had joined the company at La Mensell Millan after we had cross the
[00:59:37] CN at Vernon in August one morning there was a crack in a short interval of silence
[00:59:49] soon the shout went out stretcher bearers echoed through the orchard
[00:59:55] I ran towards the commotion and saw Biddle writhing in agony on the ground
[01:00:00] at first he looked on hurt but as I tore open his tunic I saw clear wound through his abdomen
[01:00:09] coming out by a spine he soon became numb and was no longer in pain but was very frightened and
[01:00:18] shivered we dragged him back behind the house and applied field dressings to his stomach and his
[01:00:26] back in case the wound started to bleed his young life solely ebbbing from his body our stretcher bearers
[01:00:35] quietly and reverently carried him away the scene is now too poignant to remember without shedding
[01:00:44] a tear after Biddle had been evacuated the morale of the platoon dropped
[01:00:51] he had been hit while standing in his slit trench by a sniper at least 300 yards away
[01:01:04] and you know it's it's interesting and I didn't go into this part but there's a part earlier in the book where
[01:01:13] he he basically
[01:01:15] disparages some what the use of snipers and he talks about how they usually don't gain you anything
[01:01:29] tactically but it's interesting what it does to the morale of a platoon isn't it
[01:01:37] and he you know he doesn't completely know he he explains that there's uses and there's
[01:01:41] believe me there's probably no bigger believer in the use of snipers in the world than me but
[01:01:48] it's interesting yeah he he basically you can tell he's a very a guy with you know this extremely high
[01:01:55] moral character and he kind of gets the feeling when he explains it that you know he didn't feel
[01:02:02] comfortable with sniping because people aren't expecting it there's not a battle happening he felt like
[01:02:07] it was a cheap shot but it's interesting the effect that it actually has on his platoon
[01:02:18] in this moment here we're gonna get to a point he's got Germans are in a diek they're just a
[01:02:25] head of 18 18 platoon and 18 platoon is kind of pinned down and remember this character from
[01:02:31] earlier Dennis Clark Dennis Clark was the was the guy that pulled him aside and said hey you need to take
[01:02:36] man to his company well like I said Dennis Clark or I I thought I'd remember and I was right Dennis Clark
[01:02:41] was a was an artillery guy that called an artillery so here we go back to the book I was saved by
[01:02:48] Captain Dennis Clark MC our team gunner Dennis had a virtue also touch where 25 founders were concerned
[01:02:58] sniping with one gun that should get the buggers out he said with total confidence
[01:03:03] moving his 19 set into my that's a radio moving his 19 set into my platoon position no easy task in
[01:03:11] daylight he gave us a display of the most brilliant professionalism we had come to expect from the
[01:03:16] 94th field regiment by firing with only one gun and making his mean point of impact beyond the diek
[01:03:24] containing the Germans he slowly decreased the range yard by yard until one shell exploded in the diek
[01:03:32] out came five very wet and shaken pans or grandadiers during this episode all the platoon had to remain
[01:03:43] in the bottom of their slith trenches because Dennis' shells came over our positions with minimum
[01:03:48] clearance I doubt if any experienced infantry officer would deny that the Royal Artillery
[01:03:54] during the second World War were the most professionally competent people in the British Army
[01:03:59] so again an interesting dichotomy because in the beginning he talks about how the artillery
[01:04:07] can track them because it's being used in this broad plan that's locking in with there's no deviation
[01:04:13] but here he's talking about how brilliant it is because he's directly coordinating with it he's
[01:04:18] explaining to the artillery officer where to put those rounds what the problem is and then letting
[01:04:24] the artillery officer solve it so there's a dichotomy there just like there's a dichotomy with the snipers
[01:04:34] back to the book after a few more days in the orchard we were becoming increasingly exhausted and
[01:04:38] our fighting efficiency deteriorated this condition existed not only in my company but throughout
[01:04:44] the battalion consequently the news of a move back to rest came as a colossal relief to us all
[01:04:50] but we did not know who is going to take over our positions the take over was to be at night
[01:04:57] and was to be carried out as quickly as possible if the enemy discovered it a determined attack could
[01:05:02] cause endless confusion and slaughter during the late afternoon of one particularly unpleasant day
[01:05:08] Douglas appeared that's a company commander appeared within American captain in two
[01:05:12] lieutenant's from a parachute battalion of the hundred and first airborne division they patied
[01:05:18] around the company area in their rubber-sold boots with the eyes of the whole company following them
[01:05:24] it's a hundred and first is coming into a leave him having reckoned ordered our area the
[01:05:29] Americans returned to the company HQ to discuss administrative points for the takeover
[01:05:34] the plan was for the American company commander to bring his company down the main road in
[01:05:38] single file along the edge of the ditch when the head of the column reach our company HQ they would
[01:05:43] be met by guides from each of our platoons to lead the American platoons to their positions
[01:05:47] as soon as they were on the ground our platoons were withdraw and assemble on the road
[01:05:52] this may sound simple in practice at but at night in close contact with the enemy it certainly was not
[01:06:01] this type of operation leaves two companies particularly vulnerable during the handover
[01:06:06] a determined enemy could attack and turn the operation into a massacre
[01:06:10] this is one of and I've said this before on the podcast one of the hardest things to do is
[01:06:15] link up with friendly forces on the battlefield and if you're under fire it's it's even harder
[01:06:22] so this one they're trying to do it not under fire trying to sneak and make it happen
[01:06:28] back to the book the rest of the day was spent packing making sure the enemy noticed nothing of
[01:06:32] this antit activity we put our spare ammunition onto the carriers with great coats and blankets
[01:06:38] the whole afternoon was strangely quiet there was no activity from the enemy and we in turn kept quiet
[01:06:43] the sun went down a mid-a-firey sky looking east the sky was threateningly gray
[01:06:50] I went around I went around my position to with Sergeant Kingston before the Americans arrived
[01:06:57] all my men looked tired and could hardly muster a smile as I went from slit to slit
[01:07:03] many had contained two men and now contained only one
[01:07:07] together with some momento of his former mate a mess tin or a bloodstained jacket even a
[01:07:15] packet of cigarettes wet and limp with dew I wondered how many more momentos would be there
[01:07:25] when the Americans were relieved about an hour later the Americans arrived they loomed up in the
[01:07:33] darkness by the roadside padding along in the rubber sold boots without a whisper
[01:07:39] I fought at the time what splendid troops they were and how excellent their equipment
[01:07:45] I was particularly impressed by the silent and quick way they were led by their squad commanders
[01:07:50] to our section positions so
[01:07:55] there come the Americans who leave them the hundred first airborne division
[01:07:59] who's just outstanding soldiers they're just awesome and we worked with them
[01:08:05] I mean one of my platoon in Ramadi work with the live with them the first the 506
[01:08:11] the band of brothers and you can tell they're the reputation that the guys in Ramadi
[01:08:18] upheld that standard in every possible way but it's rooted all the way back to the soldiers right here
[01:08:25] sounds like this is what struck me when I read that I was like this this that that tradition of
[01:08:31] excellence in that unit has gone from world war to from these guys right here and it's that same
[01:08:38] attitude that I saw with guys in Ramadi the same attitude
[01:08:45] alright now he makes a statement here about this whole big operation which was called market garden
[01:08:53] which was this giant operation to try and caught off the Germans sees multiple bridges and
[01:08:59] there's three bridges they were trying to seize and it it didn't reach its full effect it wasn't
[01:09:06] like a complete mission success they didn't achieve every objective that they wanted to
[01:09:12] so here we go back to the book market garden was a sad operation complete success coming so close
[01:09:18] at a stroke the war in Europe could have been finished in 1944 undoubtedly mistakes were made
[01:09:27] both by the first airborne division particularly their planners and also by 30 core and there was
[01:09:33] no shortage of bad luck however in my experiences in my experience most battles are riddled with
[01:09:40] misfortunes and mistakes and the of the sort found in this operation it was not a failure because
[01:09:47] the ground was taken and a prerequisite to both operation veritable and the rind crossing so wasn't
[01:09:54] like a total failure back to the book I'm convinced that had the supreme commander generalize
[01:10:00] now are given market garden the unqualified support that it justified it would have totally succeeded
[01:10:07] despite its crop of tack coerres and planning and execution I suppose it was just one more
[01:10:13] casualty of the american mania for dispersal of effort however it was without a doubt the most
[01:10:21] exciting and imaginatively planned battle in which 18 puttune ever fought and I'm proud we've
[01:10:26] taken part so he's talking about the folks of effort he's talking about you if you spread yourself
[01:10:31] out to thin you're not gonna you're not gonna make it happen we call that prioritize next hit
[01:10:35] what's the biggest priority let's put our resources there they didn't do that and therefore didn't
[01:10:42] get a full mission success now of course what resources were there what was available there's
[01:10:48] no one has unlimited resources no one if you have that you have no issues right you just crush
[01:10:55] problems with manpower all right so now they're moving beyond market garden and planning
[01:11:05] actually planning he's planning a patrol through a village back to the bup battle school teaching
[01:11:12] at the time prescribed a strength of 12 to 20 for a fighting patrol here again my instincts
[01:11:18] and experience did not conform to their teaching he's a rebel how can you command and control
[01:11:26] that number of men in the dark particularly in a skirmish Douglas the company commander
[01:11:31] tolerant of the absent absonancy of my opinions on these matters left the planning to me
[01:11:40] so cool Douglas is little decentralized command you figure out your plan then I like this the
[01:11:45] composition of the patrol I based on personalities and not on a battle school or day number so
[01:11:52] imagine that you're you're planning based on the personalities of the individuals you have
[01:11:56] the countryside being comparatively open I decided to take a bread gun being steady
[01:12:02] Williams and Filmer would fill the bill admirably if we ran into trouble they could provide
[01:12:08] covering fire for any assault we might make or if things went badly they could cover our
[01:12:12] withdrawal cover move obviously the assault party required strengthening so I decided to take a
[01:12:19] total patrol strength of six men one brand with seven magazines and three armed with stands
[01:12:25] with five magazines and four thirty six grenades each plus a pair of wire cutters I carried my
[01:12:31] cult four grenades and a non-brella my umbrella had been a source of amusement to the
[01:12:37] battoons inside found on the roadside in muc apart from keeping me dry in or out of a slit trench
[01:12:44] it was useful when prodding for mines and brought some fun and color to our lives Jim Kingston and Doug
[01:12:50] Proctor fought otherwise maintaining a disapproving silence which I failed to notice so now they're
[01:12:58] out on patrol moving down the bank the right we crawled forward in the mud and wet grass into
[01:13:01] we're almost past the orchard from which came the sound of digging and voices suddenly a challenge
[01:13:08] came from our front followed by a shower of stick grenades thrown from a trench just inside the
[01:13:14] orchard on our left one of the grenades landed between my legs which were stretched out
[01:13:20] and spread apart as I lay flat on the river bank there was no flash it's explosions seemed
[01:13:26] muffled and more importantly owing to the soft mud I received not a scratch the game was up now
[01:13:35] the concentrated fire of the three stands poured into the German into the surprise Germans putting
[01:13:39] away my pistol I threw three thirty six grenades in quick succession into the orchard heardly
[01:13:46] reaching from my umbrella which alluded me and then enormously, economically we'd be to retreat so
[01:13:57] he gets a graze throw on him and actually had this happen until you bruiser some guys were out on a
[01:14:01] patrol they were an open field they had cover from one side because they had pre-plant how they were
[01:14:07] in a crosses field and while they were out there they got hit with machine gun fire and then mortars
[01:14:11] and they got mortars dating like on them and luckily because it was they were in like a muddy
[01:14:21] field like almost rice paddy scenario the mortars when they hit they went into the mud and so they
[01:14:29] exploded but there was no all the these trappinals all absorbed by the mud that's lucky day for
[01:14:34] the u-briser right there boys were a little more fired up when they came back from that one now they
[01:14:42] get back into a defensive perimeter I remember nights in defensive positions like grows beak stretched
[01:14:48] out in a slit trunch trying to get an hour sleep before going round the platoon positions to check
[01:14:53] that everything and everyone was all right one felt and was dirty and in the small hours of the
[01:15:00] morning with bootlaces cutting into swollen feet of foul tasting mouth and an aching snowmick
[01:15:06] life had little to commend it the dirt and discomfort worried me more than the danger
[01:15:12] danger for some reason that I've never understood exilorates but despite every effort to keep clean
[01:15:19] it did not always prove possible and that was unbearable never once since I never once since
[01:15:28] have I not been grateful to sink into a hop bath or slide into a bed with clean sheets
[01:15:35] we went to extraordinary lengths to keep the dirt at bay once in Normandy I washed and shaved
[01:15:41] in the rainwater in the deep ruts made by carts after words I discovered that 400 yards away
[01:15:49] the opposition had been overlooking my ablutions a decent lot who obviously approved
[01:15:57] of my personal hygiene so they didn't kill him hey this guy's just trying to be clean let's
[01:16:04] let him continue back to the book during the campaign 18 platoon carried out three types of
[01:16:10] patrols reconnaissance standing and fighting the first two invariably useful because they provided
[01:16:17] information if only negative fighting patrols of which I led many were a different and
[01:16:22] contentious proposition unlike the German and American armies we had vigorous policy regarding
[01:16:28] fighting patrols particularly at night and when things were static on both sides on the defense
[01:16:35] the thinking behind this policy seemed to me at times to be superficial and probably left over
[01:16:41] from the great war world war one if when detailed for a fighting patrol young officers
[01:16:47] queried the wisdom of its given object there was always the standard reply I quite agree with you
[01:16:53] but it all helps to dominate no man's land there is undoubtedly a certain validity of this argument
[01:17:01] but was it worth the consequent loss of good young officers and nco's I doubt it
[01:17:07] shortly after the war I was able to briefly voice my reservations to my illustrious army group commander
[01:17:18] that's Montgomery by the way after giving me my MC that's military cross ribbon he stepped back
[01:17:26] and said crispy patrolling his bloody isn't it when I stammered that it seemed a bit hard that
[01:17:34] it was always the same people chosen for patrols he replied with a twinkle as I one day you'll
[01:17:42] command a battalion and you'll understand the problem for 20 year old subaltern exchange like this
[01:17:50] with a field marshal was heavy stuff but Monti's mischievous humor and utter lack of
[01:17:55] formosity coupled with a single-minded professionalism extended his personal influence to the
[01:18:01] most junior soldier in 21st Army group we felt we knew him and that he knew us often he did so
[01:18:14] that's a great little interaction you know he says patrolling his bloody work isn't it and and
[01:18:23] Sydney Jerry says yeah and the thing is it seems like it's always the same platoons that get made to
[01:18:29] do the patrolling and he says one day when you're in charge of battalion you'll understand why that is
[01:18:36] and the reason why that is because you got the good guy and that's the guy you're going to send out
[01:18:40] you're going to rely on the people that get it done
[01:18:49] well this is an interesting we got another patrol that they're getting ready to have to go out on
[01:18:53] and the patrol was to probe between the roads and advance if possible as far as the forest
[01:19:00] beyond this its purpose was indeed vague Douglas called me and another platoon commander to
[01:19:06] company HQ and explained it to us he then suggested we should toss a coin for an embarrassing
[01:19:12] situation arose I thought that the winner would lead the patrol the other officer anticipated that
[01:19:19] the loser would I lost the toss and got the job so so imagine that you and me are saying all right
[01:19:25] there's a dangerous patrol we're going to have to do let's flip for it I'm thinking heads
[01:19:32] if I win I get to do the patrol you're thinking if you win you don't have to do the patrol
[01:19:40] not everyone was quite as fired up I guess this is Sydney Jerry was
[01:19:43] and they they wrap up a relatively kind of un-eventful patrol relatively un-eventful patrol
[01:19:56] and he returns and they're having a cup of tea and some biscuits in true British form
[01:20:03] back to the book it was then that I suddenly realized that I've been commanding 18 platoon for three months
[01:20:08] to be precise three months and two days before I'd join the battalion in mid-July I'd been
[01:20:13] worn that my life expectancy would be about three weeks it seemed strange to me now but at no
[01:20:21] time did I anticipate being either wounded or killed I was just too busy for thoughts like
[01:20:28] reason and I'd become totally absorbed in my grim responsibilities in July I'd been ridden
[01:20:35] by doubt about my ability in my innocence I'd expected success in battle to be the
[01:20:43] prerogative of a Victor Lodorum which is like the champion I now had no such doubts or illusions
[01:20:54] furthermore I discovered just how much soldiers present and fear a young officer who sees battle
[01:21:02] as a means to win his spurs possibly at the cost of their lives so when you grow
[01:21:10] in and you're Mr. beating your chests and you're you're gonna prove yourself to the world
[01:21:17] yeah don't be that guy because you're gonna write checks with my life and we don't like that
[01:21:27] my duty had become clear to me it was to command 18 platoon with quiet confidence
[01:21:32] providing I made them only once my mistakes would be forgiven if my soldiers were to go
[01:21:41] we're going to place their very lives in my hands they in return were fired of me a
[01:21:48] serious attitude to my profession if I could achieve this with a light touch so much the better
[01:21:57] that's an interesting comment so you know he's saying look what they require is I got to be
[01:22:05] serious I got to be a serious as possible and it's like it's like it's like it's heard the term
[01:22:11] minimum force required yes yeah you probably probably use that as a balancer right
[01:22:15] hey you got to use the minimum force required so what he's saying is that as a leader
[01:22:20] the lighter touch the better the lightest touch you can use to lead is better that's
[01:22:25] pretty cool statement that's a good thing to think about how can you lead with minimum force
[01:22:32] every time you go you need to use more than you then you need your your over-exerting right
[01:22:43] and who knows what kind of you know you're taking away initiative you might be stamping out
[01:22:48] morale so lead with that minimum touch I like that so and this point they're in a
[01:22:58] they're in a position and there's three of these mark three 75 millimeter self-propelled
[01:23:04] assault guns so they kind of look like tanks they got big tracks their Germans their German
[01:23:09] and their and they're sitting out in front of them they're in a they're in a static position
[01:23:13] the companies in the static position and there's these these tanks sitting there three of them
[01:23:21] and Douglas looks at them and he's thinking himself hey I don't know what does they they look like
[01:23:26] they're functioning they don't look damaged and so Douglas is saying okay well we need to find
[01:23:33] out what's going on even if there's no one even if there's no one in them right now it could be
[01:23:37] a place where they use snipers later so someone's got to go check them out so Sydney Jerry the guy
[01:23:47] he goes out alone kind of sneaks out there he does stuff alone a little bit more often
[01:23:52] actually does stuff alone there's another story I didn't mention but at one point
[01:23:58] their he hears noise look one of the guy's reports it's nighttime and they hear the
[01:24:03] hear noise in this field they think there's enemy out there and he's like well there's one way to
[01:24:07] find out so he I think he does grab another guy in this occasion but he goes out and he's going through
[01:24:14] this field and it's like a corn field or something and he can't see and he's horrified and he
[01:24:20] he's trying to think of a reason to quit he's like I just want to go back this isn't smart
[01:24:26] and as he's as this is taking place and this is fear is climaxing all of a sudden he hears
[01:24:31] oh, bunch of cows that have fielded right so he's doing another solo operation here
[01:24:42] trying to find out what these tank like assault guns are doing out there back to the book
[01:24:47] climbing up above the tracks I put my head into the coupla which was open a familiar
[01:24:54] interrible stench hit me inside was a sharnell house six inches away a set of bear teeth
[01:25:02] set in unrecognizable black and incinerated lump grinned it me beside it a charred and bony arm
[01:25:11] reached up in agony spread on the floor like a pool of tar lay the melted remains of the driver
[01:25:19] I had entered Dante's inferno my head reeled and with my mouth knows and lungs filled with the
[01:25:30] stench of death I fell back to the ground although unmarked by fire on all on our side all three
[01:25:38] assault guns had brood up and were blackened on their sides which faced the enemy
[01:25:43] with no stomach to look further I ran back to the company for getting to look for American minds
[01:25:51] never again did I look into a knocked-out tank or self-propelled gun
[01:25:56] I reported to Douglas that nobody in the right mind would use them for an observation post or for any other purpose
[01:26:06] later that day he asked that's Douglas Douglas asked the commander of a Sherman tank to fire some
[01:26:12] armor piercing shells into each of them positioning his tank hold down beside 16
[01:26:17] platoon positions which were two are left the tank commanders the tank commander first
[01:26:22] selected the assault gun I had visited his first shell hit it slightly above the tracks
[01:26:29] like the hammer of Vulcan a red glow blossomed on the armor plate around the point of entry and
[01:26:37] slowly faded it was followed by a second and third shell until a morage of heat appeared above it
[01:26:43] and for a second time the funeral pyre blazed with an incandescent ferocity
[01:26:50] the Sherman gunner then turned his attention to the next assault gun which despite being penetrated by
[01:26:56] about six armor piercing rounds failed to brew up his first shot at the third caused a massive
[01:27:03] internal detonation no doubt due to amination stacked within a volcano erupted from its coppola
[01:27:11] sending a dense cloud of black smoke and red sparks into the air a truly
[01:27:19] wagonarian end for the warriors entuned within but it revolted me
[01:27:24] for the rest of the day I brooded this communicated itself to my nco's and soldiers who stole
[01:27:34] mystified glances at my grief for an unknown enemy
[01:27:39] during the afternoon I wandered across the road to a lone house where Dennis Clark had his observation post
[01:27:46] I was looking for solace from a wise and good friend
[01:27:48] a post was filled with gunner officers there must have been a dozen of them
[01:27:54] setting up their equipment and preparation for an attack by 214 brigade
[01:27:59] this activity precluded any solace for me
[01:28:04] immature and undisciplined my imagination ran riot what were they like these men whose already
[01:28:11] incinerated remains had been blasted into oblivion by the 75 millimeter shells of our
[01:28:18] friend in the Sherman my attitude to war was ambivalent undoubtedly I was part pacifist
[01:28:28] but despite an abysmal record in mathematics and particularly in geometry I was
[01:28:33] moderately logical for my age this clearly ruled out total dedication to pacifism
[01:28:42] I had previously discussed the concept of conscious objection with clergy of all
[01:28:47] denominations but none of them could give me constructive answers to my questions
[01:28:54] the privations and suffering of 18 putoon hurt me
[01:29:00] an infantry subaltern is faced with a conflict which cannot be resolved
[01:29:08] one gets emotionally involved with those under one's command
[01:29:12] without this bond few men will respond and consequently little can be achieved
[01:29:22] however to win battles decisions have to be taken and orders given which at times may seem to be
[01:29:31] a betrayal of this trust
[01:29:35] before battle the commander must exude confidence and enthusiasm
[01:29:41] whatever fears his private thoughts may hold just how thin the line divides this
[01:29:48] from deliberate deception I call it the commander's dilemma
[01:29:56] a pretentious phrase but there is nothing to be done about it
[01:30:02] the Nicholas Montserrat's book the cruel sea poor commander Eric Itson makes the point with
[01:30:09] poignancy it's the war the whole bloody war we've just got to do these things and say our prayers at the end
[01:30:24] there was another side possibly caused by adrenaline
[01:30:29] danger attracted and excited me I felt elated and until the battle was over I was impervious to
[01:30:37] exhaustion commanding a platoon embattled demands not only a clear mind but also considerable
[01:30:44] emotional force I suspected is the same transmitted force that exists between a conductor and
[01:30:53] orchestra 40 years later the dilemma of my ambivalence is still unresolved I find the suffering
[01:31:04] inflicted by war unacceptable particularly amongst women children and animals
[01:31:12] thank God I was spared the horrific sights at felays on some days I am a pacifist
[01:31:20] and yet I'm still attracted by the sounds of guns and but for an extraordinarily happy marriage
[01:31:27] would have found it difficult to resist the lore of soldiering
[01:31:38] so what he calls the commanders dilemma this one I call the dichotomy of leadership and that one is the
[01:31:47] premier of them all and that is as a leader as a combat leader you are going to love your men
[01:32:04] and care about them more than anything else in the world and with that you are going to
[01:32:13] make decisions and make plans where you are sending those men into a situation where they can be wounded
[01:32:23] or killed and that's it and that is the ultimate dichotomy of leadership that is the hardest one to balance
[01:32:33] it back to the book a new officer arrived named Humphrey's he used to play cricket for warstisher
[01:32:51] he came on the same day that sergeant Oxlyn received a well-earned commission in the field
[01:32:56] Douglas told him about sergeant Oxlyn and with great consideration he went to 17
[01:33:02] platoon's position to offer his congratulations while they talked just one salvo of one oh five
[01:33:10] straddled them one shell fell into second lieutenant Oxlyn's slit trench and both were killed instantly
[01:33:18] like me can Oxlyn has survived five months Humphrey's survives not a full day
[01:33:32] is there a mathematical formula by which survival can be calculated
[01:33:39] who are the survivors and can they be recognized over the past 40 years I've often pondered this
[01:33:46] but still offer no real answer I suspect however that is something to do with attitude attitude
[01:33:54] seems to me to be a parameter which restricts not only our relationships but also our creative effort
[01:34:04] further comment is on wise Humphrey's one cargue had little time to develop an attitude
[01:34:11] to our kind of existence undoubtedly a self-fulfilling circle develops newcomers inexperienced in the
[01:34:20] perils of the battlefield suffered the highest casualties knowledge of what can and what cannot be
[01:34:28] wrists post-pones the fatal reckoning for the soldier for the commander however junior battle
[01:34:37] field experience will not only protect himself but also all those under his command
[01:34:46] and that's that's why training is so important it's so important and that's why when I got
[01:34:54] done with you know deployment to her body that's why I went to training because I knew that right there
[01:35:01] and I was thinking you know I didn't know I was wrong the war was going to last and when we left
[01:35:04] for money where money was still horrible and when the task unit came in relieved us man they were
[01:35:10] getting after it and I didn't know long that was going to last I mean it ended up not lasting that
[01:35:16] much longer that kind of intense fighting but it was impossible to tell at that time we would just
[01:35:23] barely seeing stuff start to get better at the end of our deployment just barely starting to see
[01:35:29] the first indications of that back to the book the fifth Duke of Cornwall's light infantry
[01:35:44] had attempted to attack Hove and village through these ghastly woods and had taken heavy casualties
[01:35:50] their reign soaked bodies littered the paths and clearings while carrying out a reconnaissance I
[01:35:57] came across one of their sections lying along a small path facing the enemy
[01:36:04] at first I fought them alive until I saw that the studs on their boots were rusty
[01:36:09] and their webbing equipment was bleached with rain their battle dress was starched with mud
[01:36:15] and their hands and faces were green German booby traps were on or near many of the tracks
[01:36:23] and I was told by the company commander of the fourth wheelchairs from whom we took over the position
[01:36:29] that some of the bodies were also booby trapped don't try to bury them he said
[01:36:37] I was temporarily commanding the company because Douglas had been given a well deserved leave in
[01:36:42] Brussels although militarily comparatively un-adventful Hove and has a special place in my memories
[01:36:48] it was without doubt my most the most grizzly and horrifying position that we ever hold held
[01:36:54] but more importantly it was the place of private Charles Raven's triumph
[01:37:02] Raven had fought in all our battles since hill 112 which to him was a yardstick of horror
[01:37:10] all subsequent experience was compared with that his first battle
[01:37:14] he was no soldier I doubt if he influenced greatly any of the skirmishes and counters or battles
[01:37:23] in which he took part sometimes he was frightened and he was so out of place on the battlefield
[01:37:29] that I often wondered how he became an infantry soldier before the war he had been a clerk in north
[01:37:36] London I'm sure he was a conscientious and loyal employee and a considerate and loving husband
[01:37:44] for unlike most of us he was married Raven had hidden depths and could be inspired
[01:37:54] once in Normandy during a nasty little platoon attack up a sunken lane 18 platoon was held up by
[01:38:00] the inevitable unlocated spandows straining my eyes through binoculars I was trying
[01:38:07] vainly to locate these guns when I was handed a steaming mug of tea he should have been
[01:38:14] observing to his front but judging the moment right he had brewed a mess tin of tea on a solid fuel stove
[01:38:21] by any standards this was an inspired act he was considerate with our reinforcements pale
[01:38:31] unsure men some of whom until recently it served in the royal artillery and it been transferred
[01:38:37] to infantry regiments to replace the appalling losses incurred in the Normandy Bocage
[01:38:44] beside them Raven looked bronze in weather beaten a hardened campaigner
[01:38:50] complete with a German luger pistol to prove it some of the platoon regaled the reinforcements
[01:38:57] with horrible tails from Normandy and else as little more than a schoolboy I found these stories
[01:39:04] amusing Raven did not fear for him was horribly real and never to be joked about he developed a
[01:39:16] eternal attitude toward the newer and younger soldiers a relationship devoid of patronage
[01:39:21] but essentially one of kindly understanding he spoke to me about it when I thanked him for his help
[01:39:31] I admit I'm dead windy sir his extraordinary honesty with himself and the rest of the platoon
[01:39:38] forbade him to attempt to hide the fact Raven in overtaxed his nervous and physical resources
[01:39:45] long before we arrived in hoven woods after two days in the position he came to me late one
[01:39:52] evening and asked my permission to report sick the following morning I suppose I should
[01:40:00] and fettically have refused but something made me hesitate and avoid dealing directly with the
[01:40:05] situation I said simply all right Raven but do come see me before you leave
[01:40:10] he didn't come the matter was never again mentioned I can only surmised the struggle which
[01:40:21] rage in his mind all that night while he crouched in his waterlogs slit trunch peering into the
[01:40:27] sinister darkness of the wood I do know however that in hoven wood a considerable moral triumph
[01:40:38] over stark horror was achieved by a good man unequipped for nature unequipped by nature for war
[01:40:48] in my view the bravest of the brave so that guy Raven had been through all this stuff and
[01:40:58] just barely held the line and finally he was going to break finally he was going to break
[01:41:04] and he comes to city gerian says hey I'm gonna go sick tomorrow send the gerian says okay come
[01:41:10] and see me before you go it doesn't come back it doesn't come back to him doesn't go sick
[01:41:19] back to the book infantry warfare is wretched business it makes physical and emotional demands
[01:41:25] on participants that run contrary to all human instinct the strong minority must quietly help
[01:41:32] the weak majority to me that is the essence of good teamwork and that jewel in the crown of the
[01:41:39] British army the regimental system is the strong foundation upon which we all knowingly or unknowingly
[01:41:47] relied so there's going to be some people that deal with it better than others
[01:41:57] and you got to help um here's a situation they set up early warning flares so little trip wires
[01:42:11] in case to to notify them if the enemies move and down one of their flanks and here we go back to the
[01:42:18] book after about 10 minutes had passed we heard the popping of mortars behind hoven village in a
[01:42:22] concentration of bombs fell in the fields where we had laid the flares suddenly our left flank
[01:42:27] was vividly illuminated as flair after flair ignited knowing little about these flares we had laid
[01:42:35] them with the trip wires to talk had we allowed a degree of slack the flares were not a
[01:42:40] vergnited my fault I should have known had to fill the extreme ownership from Sydney Jerry and therefore y'all
[01:42:56] now he's talking about the attitudes of the soldiers and how soldiers you know there was a
[01:43:03] claim he read an article years after the war that said that people you know people became brutal
[01:43:09] from the from the war and here's what he says back to the book does war brutalize one can only
[01:43:17] speak from personal experience but I think not certainly no soldier of mine was made brutal rather the
[01:43:24] opposite war developed in 18 puttune consideration for comrades and humanity towards civilians
[01:43:32] and prisoners of war I was proud of my soldiers then and this sentiment has increased with the passing
[01:43:39] of years I would not suggest that the naturally brutal might not find in war and outland for their
[01:43:46] brutality however that war does not brutalize the type of decent man the type of decent and fair-minded
[01:43:54] young English men whom I had the very great honor to command we were not an aggressive generation
[01:44:02] a fact which may explain my failure to understand some present day attitudes in the armed
[01:44:06] services particularly in the royal marines and the parachute regimen possibly a degree of personal
[01:44:15] aggression is appropriate in troops are who are committed to battle for comparatively short periods
[01:44:21] like the marines and the paras when the success of an operation depends on ultra rapid action
[01:44:27] however in my experience troops lose personal aggression after about two months in battle
[01:44:35] after three months they acquire a mature compassion which in no way detracts from their offensive
[01:44:42] capability they simply know a lot more about war I would suggest that personal aggression should
[01:44:50] not be confused with offensive spirit based on professional competence and experience
[01:44:59] interesting take that aggression that you can maintain if you it's not going to last rubber
[01:45:07] and and then you're going to have to fall back on duty and and that mature compassion
[01:45:20] which isn't taken away from their offensive capability
[01:45:29] interesting
[01:45:30] back to book on the eleventh of January we returned to the south of the union just to go back
[01:45:40] to that one piece right there dichotomy leadership there's a dichotomy and everything and
[01:45:46] you know obviously I'm a big proponent of being aggressive and I also always talk about the fact
[01:45:52] that there is such a thing being too aggressive you're running to your death no not a good idea
[01:45:58] not a good idea and there's probably a good chance that when he talks about people
[01:46:03] after two months of combat everyone starts to develop a different type of attitude also
[01:46:09] the people that were ultra aggressive didn't make it like the like the leader that he talked about
[01:46:14] that was strutting around the guy was ultra aggressive didn't care about anything and he's dead
[01:46:20] so there's a balance you got to have that's the dichotomy leadership that's why the dichotomy
[01:46:24] of leadership is so important and so hard to understand back to the book on the day after the
[01:46:34] batain was relieved and hoven wood someone I suspect I suspect it was the adjutant
[01:46:40] Tim Watson decided that I should enjoy 48 hours on leave in Antwerp I was overjoyed
[01:46:48] the large hotel although faded was still plush and filled with officers including women
[01:46:54] ATS officers from the various base units stationed in the city
[01:46:59] dressed as I had left the battlefield I was both the shavold and soiled
[01:47:04] surrounded by the residents many of whom were in service dress I could not have felt more isolated and
[01:47:10] lonely so he's getting some leave time but he's showing up off the battlefield to grimey my first
[01:47:18] map visit was to a magnificent white marble gentleman's hair dressing salon in the basement of a hotel
[01:47:25] without a word the barber washed and rinsed my hair twice before touching it with his precious
[01:47:30] scissors and clippers I remember the feeling of well-being as climbing the stairs I returned to my room
[01:47:38] Next I took three very hot baths one after the other to rid myself of grime both physical
[01:47:47] and emotional I think I must have slept for 14 hours before I rose shaved took another bath
[01:47:55] and decided to explore the city
[01:47:59] A rather creased battle dress was my best suit and in this I descended the main staircase into
[01:48:06] the lounge which was filled with the resident officers all of whom seemed to be a knowingly self-assured
[01:48:15] I met a barrier I had walked out of a world that I knew into one where I was desperately
[01:48:22] unsure of myself away from the battlefield this world had no place for me I did not go out to lunch
[01:48:34] go to night clubs or meet the girls who were everywhere seemed to be canvassing
[01:48:40] for these establishments I had wandered too far into dark and smokey battlefields across the
[01:48:48] sticks to find solace or comfort in the bright lights behind the black-out curtains of Antwerp
[01:48:54] I long to return to the battalion and to 18-platoon which without my knowing it had become my home
[01:49:08] with a light heart a clean body freshly laundered clothes and refreshed by hours of unbroken
[01:49:15] sleep I gladly climbed into the three-ton truck that took me there
[01:49:18] years later I found the same problem after I left the army
[01:49:26] Antwerp had been a small taste of the real world and as anyone who has served with good
[01:49:32] soldiers on grim battlefields will confirm afterwards real life never seems real again
[01:49:39] later there was no 18-platoon to slink back to and without a loving wife it would have proved
[01:49:50] intolerable well that's the feeling that that we get when you get done doing that job
[01:50:06] and real life never seems real again in comparison I know the vets that are listening to
[01:50:18] understand that part back to the book on 11 January we returned to the South of Holland this time
[01:50:25] to ganglet snow lay on deeply frozen ground and life for the entry and life for the infantry
[01:50:34] manning their slit trenches became unbearable again the battalion front was extensive
[01:50:41] decomponing was in reserve closed close to battalion headquarters on the edge of town
[01:50:46] fortunately gangl it was on a reverse slope which allowed us to move freely during daylight hours
[01:50:53] the cold was penetrating the oil in our automatic weapons froze and until anti-free's
[01:50:59] lubricants were issued our brands were useless holding a wide front with large gaps between
[01:51:07] our company positions necessitated putting out many standing patrols particularly at night
[01:51:14] the privations suffered by these small patrols usually a corpile and three or four men
[01:51:19] were harder than the rest of us some had hallucinations and if you were exactly evacuated
[01:51:25] suffering from exposure keeping fit warm and clean became a great effort
[01:51:33] conversation dried up the platoon became quiet but never merouse
[01:51:39] at one stage I decided they needed cheering up and I wandered around the section post
[01:51:43] ready to chat with all of them it was quite unnecessary I had wrongly judged their mood
[01:51:49] they just wanted to be left alone
[01:52:01] now there's a begin by the book and read the book there's a chaotic battle at a
[01:52:07] pace place called cleave and after the battle at cleave he kind of de-briefs here
[01:52:13] back to the book what instructors at the school of infantry would think about the fighting
[01:52:18] cleave I shuttered a think there resembled no other battle in my experience I had little control
[01:52:23] and it developed into a section commander's battle looking back over the years it seems military
[01:52:29] the totally unprofessional a real wild west chewed out
[01:52:34] tactically the Germans had every advantage we were strung out in a long column amid shattered
[01:52:40] buildings and piles of rubbles with the groups of parachute troops attacking from both sides
[01:52:45] they could sniper us and engage with our with their spandals
[01:52:51] from dozens of positions totally hidden by piles of rubble
[01:52:57] they had the opportunity to concentrate their counter attacks on the narrowest of fronts
[01:53:02] but failed to do to do so so they failed to focus their efforts
[01:53:07] I can only assume that we had the psychological advantage the circumstances being so chaotic and disorganized
[01:53:13] perhaps being Germans they could not overcome their instinct for organization and tightiness
[01:53:20] in the end they departed possibly and discussed leaving us undisputed victors
[01:53:33] on another attack the Germans at this point are retreating
[01:53:38] and they can see that they're retreating
[01:53:40] fearing that the retreating parachute troops would make a stand on the edge of the wood
[01:53:43] I increased the rate of advance joining Lance Corporal Portius in the forward section
[01:53:50] running across the level crossing I suddenly found myself face to face with a germinplatoon
[01:53:55] complete with MG 34 fortunately the gun was mounted on a tripod which was unusual
[01:54:01] and could not be traversed in our direction from a drainage channel on the left of the road
[01:54:07] a parachute is leaped up swath and camouflage veil pointing a schmiser at me from about 10 yards range
[01:54:14] he fired a whole magazine of about 30 rounds
[01:54:19] it was like watching a slow running silent movie I didn't hear the chatter of the schmiser
[01:54:24] but I do remember seeing the stream of empty cartridge cases fly from the German machine gun
[01:54:30] miracles do indeed happen one nine millimeter bullet went through my beret
[01:54:38] missing my head literally by hairs with another went under the appleet of my jacket
[01:54:46] penetrating the webbing across brace the webbing cross brace of my equipment and grazing my
[01:54:51] right shoulder a third bullet ricochet off the surface of the road and disintegrated
[01:54:56] the jacket finally lodging in the palm of my right hand then came the anti climax
[01:55:04] the German looked at me in amazement through ways smiser and eye with a shrug of the shoulders
[01:55:10] he surrendered my natural relation was short lived behind me lay Lance Corporal Portius
[01:55:19] shot through the heart some of the German platoon ran away across the open fields to our
[01:55:26] left and were cut down by rapid fire brand gun by sergeant Kingston section
[01:55:33] which now line the railway track to left the road the remainder of the enemy came towards us
[01:55:39] over the level crossing with their hands raised we took 57 prisoners
[01:55:49] now they're moving along and they are clearing some cottages and they get to this one cottage
[01:55:54] filled with rough wooden bunks it had obviously served as an air raid shelter the house having
[01:55:59] been found clear of enemy jackly was off as guard as he descended the steps suddenly from under a
[01:56:04] pile of blankets left the fanatical German paratrooper the only fanatical German paratrooper we encountered
[01:56:11] the entire battle a large manny sees jack around the throat in an attempt to strangle him
[01:56:16] private fluid rose to the challenge in a bound he was down the steps and with a mighty lunge
[01:56:23] transfixed the German on his bayonet a brave lad he undoubtedly saved Lance Corporal
[01:56:30] Lee's life just eight days before losing his own the German was indeed unlucky as it was the only
[01:56:37] occasion throughout the campaign on which 18 pltunes bayonets were bloodied we usually use them to
[01:56:44] open food cans having checked the pltune positions and arcs of fire for the brins exhaustion
[01:56:53] hit me i fell into a deep sleep during the evening a senior officer i understand it was either
[01:57:00] brigade or divisional commander came out to my company position when he asked to speak to me sergeant
[01:57:06] Kingston refused to have me wakened i'm sure that Jim was the most diplomatic about it but it says
[01:57:12] much for our visitors humanity that he let it go by another attack a and c companies were
[01:57:28] unleashed and passing b company secured their objectives against some opposition
[01:57:34] there was now our turn d company advanced across the flat open fields
[01:57:39] down the left hand side of the main road into zan ten it's a name of the city
[01:57:48] village casualties from the preceding companies in the opposition lay all around
[01:57:53] about 300 yards short of the town were extremely accurately engaged by a battery of 105s
[01:58:00] some of their shells exploded on the hard surface the road your splitting detonations
[01:58:04] and frightening fragmentation pieces of shell casing hummed and wind around us one trolling peace
[01:58:11] embedded itself with a foot into the trunk of a tree a few inches from my right ear
[01:58:16] was the only time in the whole campaign when i regretted throwing away my steel helmet
[01:58:23] i think it was the accuracy and the intense noise of the shelling that caused it one of 18
[01:58:29] pertunes lance corpoles a big man who had served honorably since market garden went to pieces
[01:58:37] there was a pathetic site and to everyone's credit he was quietly removed from the battle
[01:58:44] he had passed his limit and nothing more can be said
[01:58:51] so you don't know these guys are brave at one moment and then a week a month two months
[01:58:57] four months they can't do it anymore
[01:59:05] they get across the line now they're fully in Germany there's a little bit of a low in the
[01:59:11] fighting back to the book early one morning while we were waiting for our supporting armor to arrive
[01:59:16] our podry john Williams drove over to see us after wandering around the platoon for a chat he
[01:59:22] suggested he suggested that we should go for a short stroll i had now been commanding 18
[01:59:28] platoon for over eight months and i suspect that our agitant Tim Watson a kindly soul had asked him
[01:59:37] to find out what shape i was in we had not gone far into the next field when he came across
[01:59:45] some grizzly remnants one of our artillery shells must have exploded right at the feet of a
[01:59:50] German soldier who had been digging a slit trench his splintered and twisted spade lay beside
[01:59:59] laid by the side of that half dug trench beside which was a small shell hole he had been
[02:00:06] disintegrated into small pieces of flesh and bone which they scattered all over the field
[02:00:11] had I been on my own I would no doubt have shuttered and quickly departed from this horror
[02:00:20] draped over a wire fence nearby lay a parachute which are extraordinarily brave podry
[02:00:27] spread out as a shroud on the cold and damp grass then stupid he walked around the field
[02:00:34] a lonely figure reverently picking up every piece of that poor soldier to my shame i stood and
[02:00:44] watched him i lacked the courage to help somewhere beneath those flat damp fields just north of the
[02:00:57] line that pallet it pathetic bundle must still lie
[02:01:12] now they're in attack again but it seems like things are going their way and we're going he's
[02:01:21] kind of giving a brief to his to his runner when all of a sudden he hears yelling back to the
[02:01:28] book sir they're charging us sure enough from about 150 yards ahead of well spread out line of
[02:01:34] about 20 Germans were putting in a bayonet charge brave lads they didn't stand a chance
[02:01:41] I gave no orders except cease fire not one got within 75 yards of us a few minutes later
[02:01:55] a possession of Germans with stretchers and a huge red flag emerged from the village behind
[02:02:00] when they were close to their casualties they hesitated so i stood up and waved them on
[02:02:05] all our unarmed stretcher bears and they moved across our front collecting their dead and wounded
[02:02:13] when they had finished their task of mercy one of them i think he must have been a German
[02:02:18] medical officer turned and saluted in our direction i returned the salute and with that gesture
[02:02:26] the tiny battle of cinder and ended in bremen little over a month later one of our stretcher bears
[02:02:36] Lance Corporal J. Stevens was killed by a German grenade as he went to tend to wounded German soldier
[02:02:42] 18 platoon remembering cinder and were justifiably outraged by such unsolderly behavior
[02:03:00] there is a mathematical formula aggression increases the further one goes behind the lines
[02:03:07] opposing infantry with few exceptions like the SS are joined by a natural bond of mutual compassion
[02:03:14] which few but the aristocracy of the battlefield can understand
[02:03:20] the public influence no doubt by writers with literal no experience of battle have strange and
[02:03:25] sometimes silly ideas about what makes a good soldier ill informed television programs
[02:03:31] of added to this misunderstanding few professions can be have been so misleadingly caricatured
[02:03:39] i had had i been asked at the time before august 1944 to list the personal characteristics
[02:03:44] which go to make a good infantry soldier my reply would indeed have been why to the mark
[02:03:49] why to the mark like most i know doubt one of suggested only masculine ones like aggression
[02:03:56] physical stamina a hunting instinct instinct and competitive nature how wrong i would have been
[02:04:04] i would now suggest the following firstly sufferance without which one could not survive so he's
[02:04:14] listing what he thinks the most important characteristics for a for an infantry soldier out of the first
[02:04:18] one is sufferance the ability to suffer secondly a quiet mind which enables a
[02:04:25] soldier to live in harmony with his fellows through all sorts of difficulties and sometimes under
[02:04:30] dreadful conditions as in a closed monastic existence there's simply no room for the assertive
[02:04:39] or acrimonious thirdly below no less important a sense of the ridiculous which helps the soldiers
[02:04:49] are mount the unacceptable add to these a reasonable standard of physical fitness and a dedicated
[02:04:57] professional competence and you have a soldier for all seasons none of the soldiers or nco's who made
[02:05:05] 18-platoon what it was resembled the characters portrayed in most books and films about war
[02:05:11] all quiet sensible unassuming and some by any standard were heroes if i now had to select a team
[02:05:25] for a dangerous mission and my choice was restricted to stars of the sports field or poets
[02:05:32] I would unhazitatingly recruit from the latter very interesting and i mean obviously you have to
[02:05:50] put this in the context of of his time but there's no doubt that i mean you get a sports star
[02:06:00] especially these days those guys that are getting paid 20 30 40 million dollars a year to play a
[02:06:07] game that they're probably not going to be the best at suffering and a trench
[02:06:16] interesting and i think the key point of that is what he's going back to what he talks about
[02:06:23] earlier is someone that can think someone that can think someone that is not trapped in in thinking
[02:06:33] the same faulty everyone else which certainly an artist or a poet has to be outside the box of normal
[02:06:40] fought otherwise they become that they don't become that right in this situation
[02:06:55] is platoon is kind of pinned down and there's an air raid shelter which has someone in it
[02:07:04] is firing these things called a pans or files which is like a it's kind of like a bazooka or
[02:07:08] like an RPG looking thing and he sees where it's coming from and he sees that it's this shelter
[02:07:16] but he doesn't know who's in the shelter here we go back to the kuhu who else was in the shelter
[02:07:20] women and children sheltering more enemy soldiers with more pans or files than spandas
[02:07:28] we were in a vulnerable situation and it was no good pushing forward and ignoring the
[02:07:32] menace lurking inside that shelter i could have sent two or three men to clear it however
[02:07:38] experience a top me that when clearing sellers that the first man sent in is invariably killed
[02:07:46] instead concentrated fire was poured into the entrance included gapiat bomb
[02:07:53] around us the battle still raged and no opportunity to arose from the idea for me to inspect
[02:07:59] the consequences of an awful decision nevertheless my duty was to win battles and not to
[02:08:08] gamble with the lives of my soldiers by fussing over two sensitive conscience so there you go
[02:08:15] there's dichotomy for you at the one hand he's looking at this shelter thinking there might be
[02:08:18] women and kids in there but at this moment in time he doesn't have time to find out and doesn't have
[02:08:22] time to take of the most cautious route so they hammer it with machine gun fire and some
[02:08:28] anti-tank rounds he never even goes to look but he knows that he can't his duty is to win battles
[02:08:36] and he can't diddy dally because he has a sensitive conscience doesn't work
[02:08:47] back to the book Bremer Haven was our final objective it was fifth of May 1945
[02:08:54] 19 days before my 21st birthday think about what you were doing you were doing
[02:09:00] and that's what it's just ready to break out we were concentrated at will-stet
[02:09:09] about 20 miles north of Bremen when the end came and by the end I mean the end of the war
[02:09:18] 129 brigades order was stand down and spliced the rain brace which is a military it's actually
[02:09:27] a navy term spliced the main brace means like drinking light is lit you can drink the war's over
[02:09:35] I had just given orders for our small part in the brigades move forward against 15
[02:09:39] Panzer Division one of the famous Africa core formations in 1983 Jim Kingston gave me his copy
[02:09:47] of those orders which he had kept all those years
[02:09:52] reaction to the end of the war like aggression increased further behind the lines one went
[02:10:00] the natural aristocracy of the battlefield the infantry having fired a photo joy
[02:10:06] of very lights curled up and slept we had learned too much to indulge in shallow demonstrations
[02:10:15] so everyone's all fireworks and getting crazy these guys are like cool I'm going to sleep
[02:10:22] since July we had come a long way from the Normandy beach head the battalion had lost 47
[02:10:29] officers and 1,266 NCOs and private soldiers killed or wounded
[02:10:36] after July 31st 1944 no member of 18 platoon was put on a charge no one went absent or deserted
[02:10:49] of the original 36 NCOs and soldiers who had landed in Normandy only corpable cheeseman remained
[02:10:55] one man many came after them and lasted a few days weeks or months
[02:11:07] few I was able to thank adequately I doubt if any of them realized how much I personally owed 18
[02:11:15] platoon when I joined them on 31st July I was naive and gouge due to a narrow upbringing except for
[02:11:27] a passionate love of music my intellect and emotions were unstimulated my achievement at school had
[02:11:34] been a bismal my mind was undisciplined and confidence in myself nil this was rapidly swept away
[02:11:43] probably within three weeks certainly before we crossed the sin on the 28th of August
[02:11:51] discovering an ability to command a group of men some frightened and bewildered produced
[02:11:57] a new found confidence particularly since I seem to be able to achieve it quietly and without
[02:12:03] acrimony or fuss having to improvise tactics to overcome the shortcomings of battle school training
[02:12:11] also helped it proved to me that in some circumstances older and more experienced than I
[02:12:18] others older and more experienced than I could be wrong I suspect that as an only child I had been
[02:12:24] brought up in too much of my elders a new world had opened before me forethought and planning were
[02:12:33] demanded a imagination and instinct too was that apparently quiet normandy lane lethal the intense
[02:12:44] spanned outfire and ordering a long a diek was it a prelude to an enemies withdrawal did the
[02:12:49] orchard in front of the village hide 88s my judgment in these things had proved equal to better than
[02:12:56] most of than the most and it was the making of me it also brought a few problems I'm now only
[02:13:05] able to plan and run things in my way as a result I'm probably unemployable however I would never
[02:13:14] wish to change places with the shy hesitant boy whom circumstances put in command of 18ble tune
[02:13:20] age 20 I was far too young and inexperienced to appreciate that an infantry platoon was the finest
[02:13:27] command in the army and that's the success or failure of a battle so often lay solely in the hands
[02:13:33] of a young officer after careful reflection I doubt that at any time since the war have I
[02:13:42] carried the burden of responsibility that I bore as a subaltern in battle when an army corps division
[02:13:53] or brigade was committed to battle it was the battalion company in platoon commanders who took over
[02:13:58] the mantle of responsibility from the generals and brigadiers in close country for us and street
[02:14:06] fighting the platoon commander became the lynch pin only the company and platoon commanders particularly
[02:14:13] the latter were able to have close relationship with their soldiers which is a prerequisite
[02:14:19] for having above average success failure by one infantry company could record a divisional battle plan
[02:14:27] conversely gallant success like B company at Xan 10 underwrote the battalions victory
[02:14:37] again I would emphasize the analog with the bond of professional respect between a great conductor
[02:14:43] and the members of a symphony orchestra without which a truly great performance is not possible
[02:14:49] outstanding performances cannot be arranged in a concert promoters office the created by
[02:14:56] some magic by the conductor in players in rehearsal and performance similarly while senior commanders
[02:15:03] appreciated the strengths and weaknesses of their battions and brigades they could not extract
[02:15:08] a great performance from the riflemen upon whom victory depended only the company of platoon
[02:15:16] commanders supported by their NCOs could ensure that 42 years on I get considerable satisfaction
[02:15:26] from 18 platoon successes more so than I got at the time
[02:15:30] so those are his thoughts and he's the wars now over and a few days after the war ended
[02:15:48] well go to the book after cholera and noculations we were conducted into the world of Frankenstein
[02:16:00] nothing had prepared us for what we now experienced not hill one twelve not mount pinchon
[02:16:07] else or hoven could compete with this horror before the incredulous eyes of 18 platoon spread
[02:16:16] over acres of delightfully wooded countryside was a factory of death
[02:16:23] and they sheaded bodies resembling wax effigies of an alien race from a strange and distant planet
[02:16:30] filled many pits the stench of death and the sight of such highly industrialized
[02:16:38] human degradation left my soldiers speechless private macy d companies deep driver
[02:16:49] aptly summed it up there is now no doubt that we have fought a just war
[02:16:57] that's after they saw the concentration camps obviously
[02:17:13] back to the book within a month of the war ending 21st Army group was required to supply
[02:17:18] junior officers for the 14th Army in Burma
[02:17:22] lipy the commanding officer decided that I should be one of them and by then being intent on a
[02:17:29] military career I was not inclined to argue I would gain useful experience of jungle warfare
[02:17:37] of which I knew nothing about so they're getting orders still a war going on in the
[02:17:43] Pacific oh you wrapped up pushing from normandy through germany through their surrender
[02:17:48] guess well we need we need people to go to fight in Asia we need people in Burma
[02:17:57] I was totally unprepared for the platoons for the emotions that were unleashed immediately
[02:18:05] after I was deprived of 18 platoon as a Jeep took me away from the battalion a gas-lead
[02:18:14] desolation and golf to me I felt like a small boy on his way to a grim and unknown boarding school
[02:18:24] the pleasures of commanding 18 platoon and peace time were being denied me
[02:18:28] and it's interesting so he gets pulled away from his platoon and he goes and talk about
[02:18:45] what happened to the guys that survived that he knew and I found this part to be fascinating in the
[02:18:53] how these people went back to normal life back to the book Jim Kingston was demobilized in
[02:19:03] January 1946 and two months later he returned to his civilian post with the Bristol
[02:19:09] Corporation Electricity Department retired in 1975 never married Doug Proctor returned home to
[02:19:17] his wife and baby son and not in Hammond March of 1946 found the transition from army to civilian
[02:19:23] life painless returning to his accounting post in the coal industry
[02:19:31] oh and cheeseman during the first few days of his demobilization is wife died
[02:19:38] miserable and forlorn he returned to his old job in Covent Garden and a few years later
[02:19:44] he met in married Bella who in his own words was a comfort and inspiration to him
[02:19:53] Charles Raven joined the London Transport as a bus conductor
[02:19:59] later transferring to the clerical staff and rose by hard work and study to be a garage inspector
[02:20:04] Joe Thomas and George Harris went into the building trade industry in Bridgewater
[02:20:21] surprisingly just incredibly normal paths after this incredibly not normal life and
[02:20:31] and what happened to Sydney Jerry so here's what happened to Sydney Jerry back to the book
[02:20:37] arriving in England on 9th July 1945 I reported to the holding battalion of the Hampshire
[02:20:45] Regiment at Westgate on sea and was immediately sent on 28 days leave after night out in London with
[02:20:54] three friends also berm a bound I telephone my parents and found them away
[02:21:02] caught a train from waterloo and went to see them staying at the same hotel as my parents were
[02:21:10] flight lieutenant Jack weatherlies widow Peggy and their three-year-old daughter Anne
[02:21:17] we're staying at the same hotel as his parents at once a bond of deep understanding and affection
[02:21:22] developed between us in August and Adam Baum was dropped and so at a stroke my visit to Burma was
[02:21:32] rendered pointless so two in my heart was a military career I soldiered on in Libya and Palestine
[02:21:43] with the first battalion of my own regiment for two more interesting years and finally was demobilized
[02:21:49] in May of 1947 within a week of leaving the army I attended a job interview the managing
[02:22:02] director who saw me a pale and thin-lipped man was a business acquaintance of a relative
[02:22:09] he eyed me coldly slowly and precisely from his desk he lifted a ruler which he rudely pointed
[02:22:18] at my face I understand that you made a slight name for yourself in the war be that as it may
[02:22:26] people like you Jerry should remember that while you have been galleventing around the world
[02:22:31] most of my staff had remained loyal to the company if you can give me one valid reason why
[02:22:38] should even consider you for any position I should be interested to hear it I nearly hit him now I
[02:22:49] wish that I had quickly grabbing my hat no umbrella I rose and told him that if he was the last
[02:22:54] man in the world I would rather starve than work for him with that I left my heart pounding
[02:23:02] and a foul taste in my mouth I walked aimlessly through miles of streets wishing that I was
[02:23:07] back on some battlefield with real men soldiers like 18 platoon
[02:23:17] armistice day brings its problems pagan I would like to go to church we used to go but found
[02:23:25] almost without exception a lack of perception and sensitivity amongst the clergy
[02:23:30] we suffered one armistice day sir sermon devoted to the curates theory that war being a crime
[02:23:40] against humanity all chivalry must therefore be hypocritical I wondered whether the German
[02:23:49] stretcher bears and their wounded at sin drn would have agreed I took offense pagan I have a lot
[02:23:58] to mourn she jack weatherly and I 18 pltunes dead perhaps it is expecting too much of anyone to
[02:24:08] understand intense grief particularly that of an now aging platoon commander who had to lead some of his
[02:24:16] men to their deaths we now spend armistice day quietly at home with our ghosts
[02:24:34] memories abound during the night I made a habit of wandering around the platoon
[02:24:40] position so that each of my soldiers could talk to me I learned a lot they talked about their families
[02:24:47] and their future hopes I hardly had to contribute to those whispered conversations that some
[02:24:54] times took place in the dead of night or in the cold gray light just before dawn
[02:25:01] I think it may have helped my soldiers to have a confidant
[02:25:04] invaluable experience of human nature I now treasure the memory
[02:25:16] weapons also left memories the monotonous repetitive bursts of the brain the hysterical
[02:25:23] shriek of the mg 42's for furious rate of fire and the lethal chatter of the stands and schmysers all
[02:25:30] contribute all contributed to the cacophony of battle traceable it seared themselves into memory
[02:25:41] fired from a distance the parable approached almost lazily until suddenly like a swarm of fiery
[02:25:52] demons they accelerated directly past one's head with earspooling cracks I shall never forget the
[02:26:00] brain splitting shockwave as mortar bombs detonated nor the rending of the atmosphere when a stick
[02:26:06] of nebel war for bombs straddled one slit trench my memory is stocked with smells
[02:26:16] the metallic stench of dead cattle and Normandy the punching odor of German prisoners and the
[02:26:21] vial penetrating chemical smell from a newly plowed shell creator strange fleeting memories too
[02:26:34] why in circumstance of great danger did the palms of my hands moisten making it difficult to grip the
[02:26:41] butt of my pistol why on pitch black knights full of menace was it possible to discern enemy
[02:26:49] movement by fixing my straining eyes slightly to its side it sounds foolish but I swear that it works
[02:26:57] after 40 years I am sure I could still prime a 36 grenade in total darkness or load the
[02:27:02] magazines of a cult automatic pistol I remember our dead
[02:27:10] their souls departing they lay awkwardly like bundles of discarded clothing
[02:27:21] at bedberg lands corporal portius lay by their railway crossing
[02:27:27] in an instant he had gone leaving his body clothing and equipment
[02:27:33] empty
[02:27:34] at halvin boom private jones died with a tiny cry boston the chill winter air
[02:27:44] as the bullet took him from us
[02:27:52] memories are not all sad
[02:27:55] rarely since as my adrenaline flowed as an advance to combat
[02:28:00] with all the senses alert one lived for a few hours sometimes for day at a concert pitch
[02:28:10] like a drug it captivated me I wanted more totally absorbed one pressed on until objectives had been
[02:28:18] seized then I flopped as I had never done since
[02:28:23] I remember the mood of pulsating expectancy during the last few hours before battle
[02:28:31] old trusted friends like Dennis Clark and brandly handcock would arrive to tie up their artillery
[02:28:37] support others troop commanders from the Sherwood Rangers would appear almost in party mood
[02:28:43] demari up with us the very air was vibrant with excitement and good fellowship no
[02:28:49] acrimony simply an exercise and willing cooperation to help us the infantry over come the day's grim
[02:28:56] task
[02:29:02] but my most treasured memory is the simple and sincere affection which existed between us all
[02:29:13] based on mutual trust it was the cornerstone of the platoon success
[02:29:17] and it survives unchanged to this day this is changed with regret regret because
[02:29:26] Jim Kingston owned cheeseman and particularly Doug Proctor did not receive any
[02:29:31] recognition they so richly deserved
[02:29:36] Jim and Owen were mentioned dispatches but Doug was left unrewarded
[02:29:42] over the years this omission has troubled me particularly because I had not been
[02:29:47] so had I not been so young and inexperienced more notice might have been taken of my representations
[02:29:55] I have no doubt that they all learned a military metal on more than one occasion and I their
[02:30:01] platoon commander failed them in this respect
[02:30:04] I miss my soldiers the warmth of their presence comforted me and their humor restored my spirits
[02:30:19] in the brutal world of infantry warfare although few of them realized it and certainly none would admit it
[02:30:26] their behavior was noble their absence left avoid which but for an exceptionally happy marriage
[02:30:38] would have certainly drawn me back into the army for the comfort that only a soldier can
[02:30:45] understand strangely I have never since considered myself anything but a soldier
[02:30:57] and that wraps up that book and I'm not sure if I have much
[02:31:27] to add because
[02:31:37] because Sidney Jerry seems to capture it
[02:31:44] and so much of what he talks about
[02:31:49] explains
[02:31:50] so much not only about about being a soldier but also about what it's like
[02:32:02] when a soldier is no longer a soldier to
[02:32:10] to miss the adrenaline to miss that singular focus
[02:32:19] to miss seeing men at their best at their noblest
[02:32:40] to miss the men themselves
[02:32:43] your comrades your friends your brothers
[02:32:54] to miss what he calls so perfectly that simple and sincere affection that exists in a platoon
[02:33:05] in affection that I'm not sure exists anywhere else
[02:33:19] and you you hear me talk about when I start talking about a seal platoon
[02:33:25] about how that's the best thing in the world and Sidney Jerry captures it
[02:33:29] better than me you miss the mission and you miss the men
[02:33:40] and of course you miss the fallen
[02:33:47] as the British call them the glorious dead
[02:34:02] and you wonder what would have become of them
[02:34:07] where would they be now
[02:34:20] and you you wonder why
[02:34:27] why them
[02:34:27] why was it them
[02:34:40] and you know I talk about
[02:34:45] the gift right the gift that they gave us
[02:34:49] that the fallen have given us this gift of freedom and this gift of life but there's
[02:34:58] there's more
[02:35:04] there's more
[02:35:08] because you see
[02:35:13] the rest of us
[02:35:16] we grow old
[02:35:23] from time passes us by
[02:35:31] and that that simple and sincere affection that Sidney Jerry describes
[02:35:39] it changes
[02:35:40] as we change
[02:35:47] it ages
[02:35:52] as we age
[02:35:58] but the fallen do not change
[02:36:04] the fallen do not age time has no effect on them
[02:36:10] they remain
[02:36:15] they remain young and bold and brave and uncomfortable
[02:36:30] and so we remember them
[02:36:34] that way
[02:36:34] as they were and as they will always be
[02:36:49] are heroes
[02:36:55] heroes who walk no more and yet walk everywhere with us
[02:37:00] who smile no more and yet they never stop smiling
[02:37:12] heroes who live no more yet never stop living
[02:37:16] are friends who shine no more and yet never stop shining
[02:37:35] and that is the other gift that they give us
[02:37:54] the fortune
[02:37:56] to panic
[02:38:08] and remember
[02:38:12] I think that's all I've got for tonight.
[02:38:28] So echo, maybe if you could talk about something else for a little while.
[02:38:56] Yeah, I would appreciate it.
[02:39:00] A part that stood out and we talked about this before, where the Germans were attacking
[02:39:10] 150 yards away.
[02:39:12] They just get mowed down, they just keep killed.
[02:39:16] The red flag comes up.
[02:39:19] Structures come out.
[02:39:21] Everyone sees fires, they're following the specific rules.
[02:39:26] And then they collect the bodies and they salute.
[02:39:30] We're good and then he salutes back.
[02:39:34] Okay, solid.
[02:39:35] No, game on, essentially game on now.
[02:39:40] But this is like a war, though.
[02:39:41] You know, it's different.
[02:39:42] I mean, you kind of get that same feeling way on the lower level.
[02:39:45] Obviously, but you're watching a UFC fight and then the round ends.
[02:39:49] And then the guys kind of bump, bump, bump, like good round.
[02:39:52] For sure.
[02:39:53] So, well, two seconds ago, you guys were trying to knock the guy out, you know, just
[02:39:58] like in this situation.
[02:39:59] Two seconds ago, these guys were coming to kill you and you killed them, killed them.
[02:40:03] Yeah.
[02:40:04] Boom, it happened round over, you know, let's essentially continue following the rules.
[02:40:12] And it's weird because it's less about the rules and more about like the respect, you
[02:40:16] know?
[02:40:17] It is.
[02:40:18] And on top of that, you can pile on the fact that when they were in a hole in
[02:40:23] woods, the Germans had booby trapped the British body, so they were just laying there.
[02:40:29] They didn't get the same respect back.
[02:40:33] But I think that's one thing that Sydney Jerry is very intent on throughout the book
[02:40:39] is that regardless of how depraved the enemy acts, they are going to take the high road.
[02:40:48] And you know, I think that's why this book is, this book, they give this book to everyone
[02:40:52] at Sanhurst, which is the British military academy.
[02:40:57] They give us everyone.
[02:40:58] I mean, that's a great reason why because he sets a standard with his troops and they hold
[02:41:03] that standard through regardless of the way the enemy behaves.
[02:41:08] They don't lower themselves to that behavior.
[02:41:11] You know, the worst atrocity that gets committed by his soldiers is when they spank
[02:41:16] a waffen SS guy on the ass.
[02:41:18] Yeah.
[02:41:19] That's why this book is so powerful.
[02:41:24] And you know, there's a lot of the book is very, it's very, you know, there's stuff
[02:41:28] in there that you just aren't ready for, right?
[02:41:34] Even when he was talking about the traits that someone should have.
[02:41:37] And you know, when you start thinking about it, he's right.
[02:41:43] He's right.
[02:41:44] And if you had the choice between getting some meat head that was going to go do your
[02:41:48] bidding, even though he might look like a big beast.
[02:41:50] And he's going to, but then if you think about how's that guy going to act?
[02:41:53] When things get tough or when things become ethically challenging.
[02:41:58] Yeah.
[02:41:59] How's that person going to act?
[02:42:00] So these are, and it's, and I love the fact also that man, he's killing people.
[02:42:09] He's lead, you know, it's easy to get caught up in the fact that he's wearing Corbura
[02:42:13] Pants and he's got this.
[02:42:14] There's a part, there's another part.
[02:42:15] And didn't go over in the podcast, but there's a group of German, there's like German, some
[02:42:26] kind of artillery piece and an artillery team.
[02:42:30] And they're getting, the, the brits are getting their guns dialed in to the team.
[02:42:34] And they're going to start killing them.
[02:42:36] And they make a run for it.
[02:42:38] And they have horses.
[02:42:39] And there's like six guys and some horses towing this, this artillery piece away.
[02:42:44] And the city Jerry feels happy.
[02:42:47] He's happy that the, he's especially happy the horses, like, you know, he doesn't like
[02:42:50] seeing the, the, the animals get killed.
[02:42:54] And so he's actually happy that these guys escape.
[02:42:58] And then he just says, you know, well, that's wrong because these guys have been come back
[02:43:02] and killed my soldiers.
[02:43:04] So he does a, you can see how hard it is for someone to be in these situations where
[02:43:13] you have the good conscience, which wants to do the right thing.
[02:43:16] And at the same time, you got to kill people.
[02:43:19] Yeah.
[02:43:20] And that's what makes combat so hard.
[02:43:23] Yeah.
[02:43:24] And he didn't, can he get to thinking about, remember the Christmas, the Christmas.
[02:43:29] Christmas.
[02:43:30] Yeah.
[02:43:31] Yeah.
[02:43:32] Yeah.
[02:43:33] Christmas.
[02:43:34] Yeah.
[02:43:35] Where the Germans, the Germans kind of in that situation, they initiated that, right?
[02:43:37] They were, like, cause like a mutual initiation.
[02:43:40] But yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, if you remember that particular story, but I think overall it
[02:43:43] was almost like a mutual initiation, but yes, in that particular story, there was sort of a
[02:43:47] voice that says, hey, yeah, okay.
[02:43:48] I don't cheat you, whatever.
[02:43:50] And yeah, man, it's just crazy how that can kind of emerge from these situations where
[02:43:57] guys are just straight up getting blown to pieces on purpose, by the way.
[02:44:01] Not, you know, not like some tragic accident.
[02:44:03] Like, this is that's the intent.
[02:44:04] That's the intention.
[02:44:06] And then they want to just stop and sing together, please soccer.
[02:44:11] And then the next day, by the way, they're going back to killing each other on mass.
[02:44:15] Yeah.
[02:44:16] Dang.
[02:44:17] Yeah, that's the thing about, you know, the, you know, this, a book like this is so
[02:44:23] revealing of human nature, because business people have to do the same thing.
[02:44:28] Yeah.
[02:44:29] You know, if you're a business person and your business is losing money, well, guess what
[02:44:34] you might have to do, cut staff.
[02:44:36] So if you got to, and you, you know, we, let's say we're working with a small business
[02:44:40] or you're, you've got a small business.
[02:44:42] You've got 20 people.
[02:44:43] You know all those 20 people.
[02:44:44] Yeah.
[02:44:45] But it's not like a nameless person that you're firing.
[02:44:48] When you let go for five people, because you need to save money next quarter, you're
[02:44:53] going to lose your building.
[02:44:54] Yeah.
[02:44:55] Guess what?
[02:44:56] You're going to know those people.
[02:44:57] Yeah.
[02:44:58] And so it's the same dichotomy where this boss who wants to take care of his people, just
[02:45:04] like Sydney Jerry wants to take care of his men and all of a sudden the only way to do
[02:45:08] your mission is you've got to, you've got to get some of these people killed, or you're
[02:45:11] going to fire some of these people.
[02:45:13] Otherwise our plant shuts down.
[02:45:14] Otherwise we can't go forward and everyone dies.
[02:45:17] No one has a job now.
[02:45:18] So the similarities, again, that's why it's, that's why these things about war reveal so much
[02:45:25] about human nature, which is really what this podcast is about, is about human nature.
[02:45:30] And the better you understand human nature, there's two things that can happen.
[02:45:33] Number one, the better you can lead other people, but equally as important, if not more
[02:45:38] important, is if you understand human nature, you can understand yourself.
[02:45:42] Yeah.
[02:45:43] You can understand the decisions that you make.
[02:45:44] You can understand why something's bothering you.
[02:45:46] You can understand what you need to conclude so that you can move forward in the best possible
[02:45:54] way.
[02:45:55] And if you don't understand human nature, you're, you're, in that, that's understanding
[02:45:59] yourself.
[02:46:00] Yeah.
[02:46:01] And these books allow you to gather and garner so much of that.
[02:46:05] Yeah.
[02:46:06] Yeah.
[02:46:07] Especially all the similarities.
[02:46:08] So many.
[02:46:09] All the time.
[02:46:11] I remember in, just not junior high.
[02:46:15] Yeah, I was junior high.
[02:46:17] Um, maybe early high school.
[02:46:19] So when I used to play pop Warner football, where my best friend played for a different
[02:46:25] team.
[02:46:26] But we're all, you know, it's in pop Warner.
[02:46:28] It's different.
[02:46:32] It's not by school.
[02:46:33] It's by like, Regent, you know, like, an up region.
[02:46:36] I guess town.
[02:46:37] I'm going to go in.
[02:46:38] I don't think.
[02:46:39] Anyway, so the, you know, my best friend at the time, his name was Byron.
[02:46:41] He, uh, who became a pilot, by the way.
[02:46:44] I think it's the arms.
[02:46:45] Yeah, I'm here.
[02:46:46] I'm here.
[02:46:47] I'm here.
[02:46:48] I'm here.
[02:46:49] Anyway, um, he played for a different team, but we were best friends.
[02:46:51] So it was kind of that thing, you know, where your friends with the guys, but then,
[02:46:55] you know, you go on the battlefield, you gather battling, you're back to friends.
[02:46:58] Yeah, you're not killing them, though.
[02:47:00] No way, different.
[02:47:01] Yeah, uh, and there's, did you ever see that in Iraq, like, any of that, like, I don't
[02:47:07] know, compassion, you know, yeah.
[02:47:09] Yeah, for sure.
[02:47:10] Even with the enemy type.
[02:47:11] We're not not so much with the enemy type.
[02:47:12] That's what I mean.
[02:47:13] But with the civilian types, for sure.
[02:47:16] I mean, I mean, obviously, and you'd see guys would go completely out of the way to try
[02:47:21] and protect the civilian.
[02:47:23] The enemy over there is a lot.
[02:47:26] It's different.
[02:47:27] Yeah, there's a, there's a, there's, you know, here you have a uniformed soldier.
[02:47:32] Yeah.
[02:47:33] You know, there you don't have a uniformed soldier.
[02:47:34] You got somebody that's trying to sneak around and, and bully up the 90.
[02:47:39] And yeah, you don't see that same level of now.
[02:47:44] Uh, I mean, once you get a guy captured, that's it.
[02:47:48] You know, okay.
[02:47:49] We got him captured.
[02:47:50] Zip them up, put him in the back of the home V.
[02:47:51] I mean, that's it.
[02:47:53] Yeah.
[02:47:54] So you definitely, what what he talks about is this mutual respect of like look, we're
[02:48:03] sitting in a slit trench getting murdered.
[02:48:06] And when I, like when I meet you, you're on the other side, but I know that you've been
[02:48:10] slitting him that sitting in a slit trench getting murdered all day.
[02:48:12] Right.
[02:48:13] That's why we have mutual respect for each other.
[02:48:15] Yeah.
[02:48:16] In Iraq, it's asymmetrical warfare.
[02:48:18] So they're not suffering the same type of situation.
[02:48:23] And they also, you know, one thing that really throws that stuff out the window is the
[02:48:28] way that the insurgents treated the civilian populace.
[02:48:31] Yeah.
[02:48:32] So we're witnessing nonjudicial murders like when executions, we're seeing that.
[02:48:40] We're seeing civilians getting tortured.
[02:48:42] We're seeing, you know, people being beheaded.
[02:48:46] And so when you see that, you're there trying to help these people.
[02:48:49] And you start to think, look, if you're another infantryman in an opposing army, I can
[02:48:56] I can empathize with you.
[02:48:57] I can understand what you're going through.
[02:48:59] But if you're, even if you're another army, but I see you raping torturing, murdering,
[02:49:06] burning people alive, I don't empathize with you anymore.
[02:49:09] It doesn't work that way.
[02:49:11] So not really.
[02:49:13] Yeah.
[02:49:14] Now, you would get occasionally you'd get, like you could tell that someone would be mixed
[02:49:19] up in something that they shouldn't have been mixed up in.
[02:49:22] And maybe a young kid, you know, maybe a 17, 18 year old, because some of those kids,
[02:49:27] some of the insurgents were not vehemently, you know, pro al-Qaeda.
[02:49:36] Some of them were just, hey, look, I'm going to get paid 50 bucks to put an ID in the
[02:49:39] road.
[02:49:40] Yeah. And if you paid me 50 bucks to go and plant, you know, crop over there, I just
[02:49:46] assumed to do that.
[02:49:47] Yeah.
[02:49:48] So you'd see some of that.
[02:49:49] There'd be, okay, look, this kid's just, you know, he'd just caught up in something
[02:49:53] doesn't understand.
[02:49:54] And then again, I mean, all, again, the dichotomy is if you're putting an ID in the
[02:49:59] road to kill Americans, but I don't care about you.
[02:50:01] And I want to kill you.
[02:50:05] That's all there is to that.
[02:50:06] And, but it's definitely a different scenario when the people that you're fighting are,
[02:50:13] are the ones that are committing these kinds of atrocities.
[02:50:17] Because even as these guys, you know, they, you see how he differentiated between, like,
[02:50:21] the Waffen SS and like a normal infantry group, he differentiates those two.
[02:50:26] That'd be like if, let's say, the war in Iraq was against, let's say, Al Qaeda had taken
[02:50:31] over Iraq and you were fighting, given the hardened al Qaeda guys or some normal infantry
[02:50:37] men from the Iraqi army.
[02:50:38] Yeah, those guys, you'd been like, hey, look, this dude's surrender to, okay, the al Qaeda
[02:50:43] guys, first of all, they're probably not going to surrender.
[02:50:46] And if they do, that's, they're going to not get the same treatment that a guy that's
[02:50:51] a victim of circumstance, right?
[02:50:53] A lot of the Germans, they're victim of circumstance.
[02:50:56] Hey, that, this guy came into power.
[02:50:59] I was a soldier.
[02:51:00] I'm still a soldier.
[02:51:01] You know, and, man, it's heavy.
[02:51:07] It is.
[02:51:08] But there is definitely a mutual respect that you have for another servicemen that's, you
[02:51:16] know, has been through the same kind of crap that you've been through.
[02:51:18] Yeah.
[02:51:19] Yeah, man, make sense.
[02:51:22] So with that, speaking of heavy, lifting kettlebells.
[02:51:26] Anyway, I feel like we should talk about on it on a great kettlebells.
[02:51:32] Again, I do feel spoiled, even every time I pick a month, even though they're dope, you
[02:51:36] know, the artistic ones, should we call them artistic?
[02:51:41] No.
[02:51:42] Because they have names, right?
[02:51:43] Primal bells.
[02:51:44] Yeah, just called that better than or legend bells.
[02:51:46] All that stuff, you know, I feel kind of spoiled because they're kind of like the designer
[02:51:51] ones.
[02:51:52] They're designer-ish, balanced by the way.
[02:51:55] You know, we got into that.
[02:51:59] Here's the thing about the guy, and I said this before, starting light with kettlebells.
[02:52:05] It's critical.
[02:52:06] My friend Anthony came over.
[02:52:07] I don't know if you remember Anthony.
[02:52:09] No.
[02:52:10] The first day we recorded he was at my house.
[02:52:13] Oh, yeah.
[02:52:14] Yeah.
[02:52:15] So he came over the other day and he was like, yeah, let's lift and, you know, last
[02:52:18] time I seen him, I wasn't so much into the kettlebells.
[02:52:20] So I was like, all right, we're doing this thing.
[02:52:22] Be careful.
[02:52:23] And I saw him.
[02:52:24] He never done it.
[02:52:25] Did you hurt him?
[02:52:26] No, but-
[02:52:27] Oh, he just he grabbed the lightest one and, you know, I said, start light or whatever.
[02:52:31] And you could tell his, I'm gonna say this with all due respect if you haven't done
[02:52:35] it before.
[02:52:37] It makes sense.
[02:52:38] But like his form was way off and I'm thinking bro, you're gonna get hurt.
[02:52:41] Yeah.
[02:52:42] You know?
[02:52:43] Yeah.
[02:52:44] So I was gonna go into like what crazy workout I did, but I'll save that for another
[02:52:47] time.
[02:52:48] For now.
[02:52:49] We're almost at three hours right now.
[02:52:50] For now.
[02:52:51] I just looked at my watch.
[02:52:52] 253.
[02:52:53] That's not a good sign.
[02:52:56] So I apologize to everyone in the world for doing a three and a half hour podcast,
[02:53:00] which is gonna turn into a faculty who describes his last 14 workouts.
[02:53:03] Four and a half hours.
[02:53:05] Great detail.
[02:53:06] Nonetheless, so we'll, uh, create a real quick.
[02:53:10] I was talking to somebody at the mustard.
[02:53:13] I think he was, I forget who it was.
[02:53:15] Nonetheless, we was talking about the benefits yet again.
[02:53:17] This is like a common thing.
[02:53:19] It's true.
[02:53:20] I don't exaggerate about the cruel oil.
[02:53:22] It's something like I can't go back to not taking cruel oil.
[02:53:25] No, take the cruel oil.
[02:53:26] And I don't mind.
[02:53:27] Oh, actually, we were talking to the left.
[02:53:29] Remember the life city you ran out of cruel oil?
[02:53:31] Yeah, and he's all mad at me because he gave me some.
[02:53:33] Oh, you're kidding.
[02:53:35] I didn't bring any.
[02:53:36] Yeah, actually technically technically was a channel that he brought me some.
[02:53:39] I think he just gave you one.
[02:53:40] None the less.
[02:53:41] He gave me one.
[02:53:42] Yeah, so I guess he can have a part of it.
[02:53:45] Got the credit.
[02:53:45] Nope.
[02:53:46] Nonetheless, I'll never go back to no cruel oil.
[02:53:49] So where would you get it?
[02:53:50] On it, cruel oil.
[02:53:51] What if you wanted to save money?
[02:53:53] Go on it.com slash chocolate.
[02:53:55] There's a lot of things on there.
[02:53:57] And on it is one of those good companies slash website where anything you need, like
[02:54:03] anything you need supplementation with, all the way down to workouts.
[02:54:08] They got it on there.
[02:54:10] Try your best not to get too addicted to the website because it's very fast.
[02:54:14] Very really funny.
[02:54:15] First, and that has that issue.
[02:54:16] I don't think so.
[02:54:17] I will guarantee you all spend time watching the videos and stuff.
[02:54:21] Browsing the products.
[02:54:24] Sometimes you can get like, we talked about the, you know, how you get on Amazon.
[02:54:28] And you're like, yeah, I want to get that thing too.
[02:54:30] You don't really need it.
[02:54:31] Just look super cool.
[02:54:32] It's one of those.
[02:54:33] Amazon does that.
[02:54:34] Yeah, so be careful.
[02:54:36] It does.
[02:54:37] But I don't think it like prompts you.
[02:54:38] It's just the list of stuff is all cool.
[02:54:40] You know, it's not just a kettlebell.
[02:54:42] It's the really cool one.
[02:54:43] You know, so it's that situation.
[02:54:45] Anyway, on it.com slash chocolate, if you want the 10% off.
[02:54:49] And yeah, report back.
[02:54:51] I mean, what you think?
[02:54:52] And if you ask me about the krill oil, right, I'll tell you.
[02:54:55] I'll tell you till the end of time.
[02:54:56] I will not take krill oil ever again.
[02:55:00] If I have anything to say about it.
[02:55:02] Another way to support is when you pick up your copy of 18
[02:55:07] platoon or whichever books you choose that chocolate reads on this podcast.
[02:55:13] Go on our website, jocabodcast.com, go to the book section on the top of this book
[02:55:17] from episodes.
[02:55:18] Click through there.
[02:55:20] It's up.
[02:55:21] If you're looking to get 18 platoon the book, you actually, you can get it on Amazon.
[02:55:26] Used for like 40 bucks.
[02:55:29] Used copy.
[02:55:30] Which they'll all be gone by the time.
[02:55:33] Whoever you are listening to this, you can also get it from a website.
[02:55:39] Riflesdirect.com, which actually supports the rifles regimen in the UK.
[02:55:44] So you can get it there as well.
[02:55:47] Or you can buy the used hardcover copies from Amazon.com after you click through.
[02:55:54] Yeah, click through there, boom.
[02:55:56] And even if you're buying something else, hey, click through.
[02:56:01] Support the cause anyway.
[02:56:03] Another way.
[02:56:05] Subscribe to the podcast on iTunes, Stitcher, Google Play, and any other podcast providing
[02:56:13] platforms also and not excluding YouTube.
[02:56:19] YouTube's a good one.
[02:56:20] Video version.
[02:56:21] I got YouTube read by the way.
[02:56:23] Okay, wait, wait, what's the benefit?
[02:56:24] So the one of the benefits is on YouTube, Brad, you can listen to, even if you go to another
[02:56:29] app, all right, yeah.
[02:56:30] Right, yeah.
[02:56:31] So it's a real, it's a real cool deal for me.
[02:56:34] Yeah, I'm in.
[02:56:35] It's real hands.
[02:56:37] I like that.
[02:56:38] Yeah, I know you do.
[02:56:39] Good.
[02:56:40] relevant.
[02:56:41] Most of the time.
[02:56:42] It's the same ad over and over and over and it gets, you know what, though, you
[02:56:45] know when they play, you ever see the same.
[02:56:47] Well, you don't see ads anymore.
[02:56:48] No, but there's a lot of people who may or may not enjoy ads and or still have the only
[02:56:54] person that enjoy ads.
[02:56:55] You got this.
[02:56:56] You got this.
[02:56:57] You know, you know, how's it like here, for example.
[02:57:01] So Thai Lopez, right?
[02:57:03] That's not it.
[02:57:04] I don't know.
[02:57:05] They all have like, I had every single time.
[02:57:07] Yeah, I know.
[02:57:08] You know, there's this other financial company, which is a weird one, which is, it's
[02:57:11] a really poorly done nonetheless.
[02:57:13] So Thai Lopez, here's the example, Thai Lopez, he'll be like, they'll talk about some
[02:57:17] stuff.
[02:57:18] And then after it's the same ad over and over and after a while, you're like, okay, okay, skip
[02:57:22] the ad.
[02:57:23] But then it kind of sticks with you and then you're kind of like, yeah, that's called advertising.
[02:57:26] I know.
[02:57:27] I know that's what I mean.
[02:57:28] Yeah, but it's kind of like, I see what's going on yet.
[02:57:31] I still am compelled, you know?
[02:57:32] So it's like, it's kind of like, it's beneficial almost.
[02:57:35] I'm over here, not compelled.
[02:57:36] It's not compelled.
[02:57:37] No.
[02:57:38] But I am compelled to subscribe to YouTube.
[02:57:43] Yeah, yeah, okay.
[02:57:44] There you go.
[02:57:45] So you're trying to say, you're saying a lot of other stuff right now.
[02:57:48] Well, you know, it's not helpful.
[02:57:49] I'm going to these tangents and it's relevant.
[02:57:51] I feel like people can relate on some level, sometimes.
[02:57:56] Maybe.
[02:57:57] Occasionally.
[02:57:58] Weird people.
[02:57:59] Nonetheless, YouTube, that's a good one.
[02:58:01] Video version.
[02:58:02] What's the, what's Jockel podcast is the channel?
[02:58:05] Yeah.
[02:58:06] To subscribe to.
[02:58:07] Yeah.
[02:58:08] It'd be cool if you put videos on there more often.
[02:58:10] I do stuff like two, three a week.
[02:58:12] Oh, yeah, two, three a week now.
[02:58:14] Kind of.
[02:58:15] Okay, good.
[02:58:16] I'm looking forward to that new.
[02:58:17] Whatever I put, I put one on the other, what is Monday?
[02:58:20] Yeah, okay, that's one.
[02:58:22] It's, it's whatever it is right now.
[02:58:24] Yeah, man.
[02:58:25] Thursday.
[02:58:26] No worries.
[02:58:27] I got you.
[02:58:28] Go subscribe to that if you haven't already.
[02:58:30] And you can get the video version and excerpts, which are shareable, shareable, meaning
[02:58:35] they're just shorter.
[02:58:37] They're shorter.
[02:58:38] So, you know, whoever opens it, they're going to be, then more of a chance they're going
[02:58:42] to listen to it when it's two, three minutes longer than two and a half, three and a half
[02:58:46] in this case hours long.
[02:58:49] That's just how.
[02:58:50] That's not fired from doing podcasts because they're too long.
[02:58:53] Is that possible?
[02:58:54] Maybe.
[02:58:55] I guess how they do it.
[02:58:57] What else?
[02:58:58] Anything is possible, right?
[02:58:59] That's the thing.
[02:59:00] What else?
[02:59:01] Jockel has a store.
[02:59:02] It's called Jockel Store.
[02:59:05] It's a site jockelstore.com.
[02:59:07] See, catchy, right?
[02:59:09] Easy to remember.
[02:59:10] If it's a store and it's jockels is jockel store.
[02:59:13] If it's a podcast and it's jockels is jockel podcast.
[02:59:16] If it's, you know, if it's key chains.
[02:59:19] I was meeting some people.
[02:59:20] Jockel key chains.
[02:59:21] I was meeting some people talking to some people at a group the other day who are not familiar
[02:59:27] with me or with anything.
[02:59:29] Got to respect.
[02:59:31] And they said, oh, well, do you, do you, or, you know, one of them said, oh, he's got a podcast.
[02:59:38] And then the other one said, oh, what's the name of the podcast?
[02:59:40] That's what all the podcasts he's called Jockel Podcast.
[02:59:44] And she said, this one, cross it.
[02:59:47] Did you pay your marketing team a lot for that?
[02:59:50] Yeah.
[02:59:51] And I said, yes, and the fact I did.
[02:59:53] You know, exactly.
[02:59:55] Real original like that.
[02:59:56] Yep.
[02:59:57] So original, but hey, man.
[02:59:58] You know, could be worse.
[03:00:00] So back to the store.
[03:00:03] Jockel store, that is.
[03:00:04] There's some t-shirts on there.
[03:00:06] If you want to represent, you know, the t-shirts carry a message.
[03:00:09] The message has layers.
[03:00:12] Actually, I guess technically the shirts have layers because the message is one of the
[03:00:16] layers of the shirt.
[03:00:17] You know what I mean?
[03:00:18] Anyway, go on there.
[03:00:19] Jockelstore.com.
[03:00:20] If you like something, get something.
[03:00:21] That's a good way to start.
[03:00:22] Our shirts coming out this week.
[03:00:24] That's my question to you.
[03:00:25] Yeah, that's the intention.
[03:00:26] Okay, so I'm getting angry.
[03:00:28] Yeah, I understand.
[03:00:29] But you know, make me not get in your business.
[03:00:32] Hey, normal face.
[03:00:33] Normal face.
[03:00:34] Normal face.
[03:00:35] My face is way normal.
[03:00:36] But don't make me come and get in your business and do your job for you.
[03:00:38] Because if you've ever heard me talk on this podcast, I talk about when people don't do their job.
[03:00:42] That's awesome.
[03:00:43] Because then I can take their job from them.
[03:00:44] Right, right.
[03:00:45] You got to step down.
[03:00:46] Think about where I'm more of my mindset is.
[03:00:47] And you may want to step it up over on your end.
[03:00:49] Oh, thank you.
[03:00:50] But to jump into the store.
[03:00:51] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
[03:00:53] No, no respect.
[03:00:54] I did it.
[03:00:56] And we're going to try to get that to do.
[03:00:57] Yeah, let's try it for you.
[03:00:59] No, let's do.
[03:01:01] You know why you're saying this right now because you can't wait for the shirt that you designed to come up.
[03:01:07] Because you want the recognition.
[03:01:08] Well, I also think your I think you might be sabotaging and sabotaging my efforts.
[03:01:16] I made the better shirt.
[03:01:18] And you don't want to print it because your self-conscious.
[03:01:24] And that's not going to stand.
[03:01:26] Well, I will give you the respect because there is in fact layers to this shirt as well.
[03:01:30] So all right, how about this more layers more layers.
[03:01:33] Oh, yeah, yeah, you could be right.
[03:01:35] I think you might have more layers than the standard.
[03:01:38] I guess we'll see.
[03:01:40] We're going to find out about that one.
[03:01:41] Anyway, jockels.com.
[03:01:42] So women's stuff on there as well.
[03:01:43] Some patches, some rash guards, some cool rash guards.
[03:01:47] Yeah.
[03:01:48] Indeed.
[03:01:49] Some huddies.
[03:01:50] Other stuff.
[03:01:51] Anyway, go on there.
[03:01:52] Check it out.
[03:01:53] If you want something, get something.
[03:01:54] Also, psychological warfare.
[03:01:56] If you're having trouble.
[03:01:58] If you're having trouble.
[03:02:00] If you're like me and sometimes you do or currently having trouble with not feeling like working out.
[03:02:07] Not feeling like it.
[03:02:09] So you're considering skipping the workout, waiting for tomorrow, making your workout day into a rest day.
[03:02:16] If you're having that problem, this is what you do.
[03:02:18] Psychological warfare search on iTunes.
[03:02:21] Google Boy.
[03:02:22] Amazon.
[03:02:23] So anyway, where you can get MP3s, you search psychological warfare.
[03:02:26] Jockel willink.
[03:02:29] And it's an album.
[03:02:32] Witcher.
[03:02:33] And these tracks will help you through anything that you're feeling that weakness, like I just mentioned,
[03:02:39] whether it be waking up early or skipping the workout or cheating on the diet.
[03:02:43] And I say cheating on the diet.
[03:02:45] Because you made a promise to yourself, you're not going to eat those donuts.
[03:02:48] You made a promise.
[03:02:49] And then now like all of us on all of them.
[03:02:51] Eat the donuts.
[03:02:52] No, that's not the promise you made.
[03:02:54] Just think I can never eat a donut again.
[03:02:56] No, sure.
[03:02:57] Exactly right.
[03:02:58] Because everyone in the world will, like, somewhat, be there with a camera.
[03:03:02] Yeah.
[03:03:03] And they'll get me a pop at the end.
[03:03:05] Yeah, yeah, pop at the end.
[03:03:06] And consider this, like, what if you knew 100% know once, you know, watch whatever.
[03:03:11] And then you're eating the donut.
[03:03:12] Can you imagine the guilt?
[03:03:13] Yeah.
[03:03:14] You're feeling like you're a guilt.
[03:03:15] Yeah, you can do it.
[03:03:16] You're done.
[03:03:17] Don't let the time.
[03:03:18] You know, but in the event of other people, not you do other people feeling that weakness.
[03:03:24] There's a track for that.
[03:03:25] Remember back when I phone kind of came out and there's that thing.
[03:03:31] There's an app for that.
[03:03:32] Remember that you always say that.
[03:03:34] Oh, there's an app for that.
[03:03:35] There's an app for that.
[03:03:36] That was like an expression.
[03:03:37] Okay.
[03:03:38] Look, with this, there's a track for that.
[03:03:40] You just made that up right now.
[03:03:43] Anyway, psychological warfare.
[03:03:44] You check it.
[03:03:45] If you need that.
[03:03:46] If you need that, that's spot.
[03:03:49] Because really, that's what it is.
[03:03:50] It's a spot in life.
[03:03:52] When you're trying to live heavy things, it's good to have a spot.
[03:03:55] If you're living light stuff or not lifting that all you need a spot.
[03:03:58] So don't even worry about that.
[03:04:00] If you're not doing nothing, don't even get this.
[03:04:01] You don't even need it.
[03:04:02] If you're not doing anything in life, don't get it.
[03:04:05] You shouldn't say.
[03:04:06] Yeah.
[03:04:07] Let's try.
[03:04:07] Let's try.
[03:04:08] Get it.
[03:04:08] Check.
[03:04:09] All right.
[03:04:10] Like I said, 18, we'll tune.
[03:04:11] You can get that at riflesdirect.com from the UK.
[03:04:13] It supports that regimen, which I'm all about.
[03:04:15] Also, you know, speaking of rash guards and stuff, check out originmain.com.
[03:04:20] My boy up there Pete Roberts, he's kind of a, he's kind of a psycho.
[03:04:26] Actually, kind of a madman.
[03:04:29] He's all about manufacturing in America, which I'm all about to.
[03:04:32] And I'm going to go into this at some point, but like you wanted to make guise here.
[03:04:37] And you couldn't get the fabric.
[03:04:38] So he went out and bought old abandoned looms from abandoned factories.
[03:04:42] And hired old timers that knew how to work these things and refer to them and rebuilt them.
[03:04:48] And has made these looms brought them back to life so they can make guise and rash guards.
[03:04:53] Here in America, in Maine.
[03:04:55] And like I said, that's kind of crazy borderline psychopathic, which I kind of like.
[03:05:02] And yeah, that's kind of why we're kind of working on joining forces in some way.
[03:05:08] Pete origin, warpath.
[03:05:13] It's going down.
[03:05:15] We're going to make something happen.
[03:05:16] I'll keep everyone informed as we finalize the plan.
[03:05:20] That rash guard that you mentioned.
[03:05:22] Yeah.
[03:05:23] And posted the video.
[03:05:25] Yeah.
[03:05:26] That was a lot nicer.
[03:05:27] Is a lot nicer in legit than I am.
[03:05:30] Yes, when you see it, it's underplayed.
[03:05:32] You're like, yeah, well, you didn't know.
[03:05:34] I made it sound like just kind of cheesy.
[03:05:37] Yeah, like you.
[03:05:38] But you didn't realize it was actually savvy.
[03:05:42] But the thing is that rash guard, it's already sold out.
[03:05:47] You know, so now he's printing a bunch more, but he's got to weave the material.
[03:05:53] Yeah, right?
[03:05:54] Or he gets, he gets one of his producers here in America.
[03:05:57] We submit to real so anyways.
[03:05:58] Check out that origin main dot com growing company.
[03:06:03] We're getting in league with them.
[03:06:05] And we're getting a big time.
[03:06:07] Also, jocquait on Amazon.
[03:06:10] Here's an actual, again, this is a certified verified report.
[03:06:16] I have a cat that used to catch one or two mice per month.
[03:06:20] I forgot to pick up a tea bag after I brewed it.
[03:06:23] And the cat ate the tea bag.
[03:06:25] Now my cat is bringing home raccoons, full grown rabbits, and even the neighbors dog.
[03:06:30] So be careful.
[03:06:31] Don't let your cat get it unless your neighbor's dog has been annoying.
[03:06:34] No, that's jocquait.
[03:06:36] You can have it.
[03:06:37] And it's not, doesn't take, the thing is doesn't taste like normal tea.
[03:06:40] You taste like victory.
[03:06:42] All right.
[03:06:43] Way the warrior kid boom.
[03:06:46] Also, this is a warning about way the warrior kid.
[03:06:48] When you order way the warrior kid, just go ahead and also order a pull-up bar.
[03:06:54] Some flashcards, some healthy food, and a jiu-jitsu geek.
[03:06:58] Because when your kid gets done reading this factually, they're going to want to be stronger, better, tougher.
[03:07:03] And smarter.
[03:07:04] So supply them the way they need to be supplied, quit playing around, get some.
[03:07:11] Also, the discipline equals freedom field manual.
[03:07:16] There's no book like this.
[03:07:18] Doesn't exist.
[03:07:19] It is not a normal book.
[03:07:22] It's kind of like the podcast.
[03:07:24] This podcast is not for everyone.
[03:07:27] Not everyone wants to listen to this podcast.
[03:07:30] That's okay.
[03:07:31] I'm not making a podcast for everyone.
[03:07:34] We're making a podcast for people that like to get after it.
[03:07:39] So this book is not for people that want to read junk.
[03:07:47] Some people don't get the podcast.
[03:07:49] Some people aren't going to understand the book.
[03:07:51] They're not going to know where it's coming from.
[03:07:53] That's okay.
[03:07:55] I'm not, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not toning down the podcast.
[03:08:00] We're not saying, oh, you know what?
[03:08:03] I think everyone would like it more if we did more, you know, interspersed some jokes throughout it.
[03:08:08] And maybe if we made it a 45 minutes and do a little fun presentation and I get some back up music.
[03:08:14] Just to kind of a little jangle to make people get in the spirit.
[03:08:17] We're not doing that.
[03:08:20] Not happening.
[03:08:21] Yeah.
[03:08:22] If you want to listen to a little jangle or a little, you know, metallic riff to get you in the zone on the beginning of the podcast.
[03:08:29] That's cool.
[03:08:30] If you want that, that's awesome.
[03:08:31] There's other podcasts that offer it.
[03:08:32] We don't offer it here.
[03:08:33] You know what you're going to get with the book.
[03:08:36] If you're looking for a, you know, 50 shades of gray, you're not going to get that.
[03:08:44] But that's the cool thing.
[03:08:45] The cool thing is that the publisher let me do whatever I wanted to do.
[03:08:50] So I did.
[03:08:51] And I made the feeling, you're going to feel that the feeling of the podcast.
[03:08:58] The feeling of the podcast is the same feeling that the book gets you.
[03:09:05] So it's.
[03:09:07] Little heavy.
[03:09:09] Little dark, right?
[03:09:11] Sparse, right?
[03:09:12] Sure.
[03:09:13] Get after it.
[03:09:14] That's in there.
[03:09:15] Anyways, this political field freedom field manual.
[03:09:19] Order it.
[03:09:20] It's not printed.
[03:09:22] I'll give you an, living in an example.
[03:09:24] It's not printed on white paper.
[03:09:27] So the straight up, let's just go from there.
[03:09:30] It's actually printed.
[03:09:32] The background is all images.
[03:09:37] Black and white images.
[03:09:39] I know that comes as a picture.
[03:09:40] Brace everyone.
[03:09:41] Sure.
[03:09:42] And then put over that is words.
[03:09:44] So there you go.
[03:09:46] Little indicator is what the, the field manual is like.
[03:09:48] You can get that.
[03:09:49] A good pre order now.
[03:09:51] Of course, extreme ownership.
[03:09:52] It's a little book.
[03:09:53] It's about leadership.
[03:09:54] Actually it's about combat leadership.
[03:09:56] And how you can take the combat leadership principles that we've learned on the battlefield
[03:10:02] and climb to your life.
[03:10:03] You can get that book too.
[03:10:04] If you want it.
[03:10:06] We also have Ashland front consulting.
[03:10:09] Me, Lave Babin, JP to now.
[03:10:12] Dave Burke.
[03:10:13] We will come and help your team align your leadership.
[03:10:16] So you can crush your enemies.
[03:10:18] You just heard Sydney Jerry saying it.
[03:10:21] A leadership is the thing that makes you overcome.
[03:10:24] Seemingly impossible things.
[03:10:27] So if your leadership isn't square away,
[03:10:29] you're not going to overcome them.
[03:10:31] So you need to get in the game.
[03:10:33] You can contact us info at Ashland front.com.
[03:10:36] If you want that.
[03:10:38] Also the monster we just got back from the Austin monster.
[03:10:42] Outstanding.
[03:10:43] Outstanding.
[03:10:44] It was awesome.
[03:10:45] So many great people in there.
[03:10:47] Lessons learned knowledge spread.
[03:10:50] Tim Kennedy was there.
[03:10:53] Tim Kennedy showed up.
[03:10:55] And it was cool.
[03:10:57] And I didn't realize it until we were at Gitu.
[03:11:01] And I think I came up to you and said this during Gitu.
[03:11:04] So the last night we had Thursday.
[03:11:06] Then Friday and the Friday night we go to Gitu.
[03:11:08] We went to 10th planet at Austin.
[03:11:11] Austin 10th planet.
[03:11:12] Gitu with my boy Curtis.
[03:11:14] Todd White was there.
[03:11:16] And Todd White was staying.
[03:11:17] Who represent?
[03:11:18] Yeah, he's an old school.
[03:11:20] He's me and him are from the same era.
[03:11:23] Yeah.
[03:11:24] We're from the same era from back in the day.
[03:11:28] Only he's a better artist.
[03:11:30] A better artist in me.
[03:11:32] So what we went and what I realized is this.
[03:11:37] You know like way the warrior kid.
[03:11:40] People say, oh man, I wish I had that book when I was a kid.
[03:11:43] An extreme ownership.
[03:11:44] People say, oh man, I wish I had that book when I started out.
[03:11:48] And when I got promoted five years ago.
[03:11:51] And you know what I say about way the warrior kid?
[03:11:53] I wish I had it when I was a kid.
[03:11:55] You know what I say about extreme ownership?
[03:11:57] I wish I had it when I was a assistant,
[03:12:00] a student, a student, a commuter.
[03:12:01] I wish I had it.
[03:12:02] I didn't have it.
[03:12:03] And what's cool about the monster is.
[03:12:05] So that feeling when you go to the monster,
[03:12:07] you're giving just like we're just giving this massive amount of information.
[03:12:12] Pragmatic information that you can take and you can execute with.
[03:12:17] And so when we were at GJitsu, I realized man, we just all this.
[03:12:22] These people in this room just got all this information.
[03:12:26] And it and it's so practical that you can take back your team.
[03:12:30] And then on top of all that, here's a little something else.
[03:12:32] GJitsu.
[03:12:33] Yeah.
[03:12:34] Because only one quarter of the people that came to GJitsu had ever trained GJitsu before.
[03:12:40] Yeah.
[03:12:41] The other was a 50 people that had never trained before.
[03:12:45] So they're getting this gift, the gift of GJitsu.
[03:12:48] The little angel.
[03:12:49] Yeah.
[03:12:50] Little angel now.
[03:12:51] I would say 50% of them will go back and start training.
[03:12:54] Yeah.
[03:12:55] Maybe more.
[03:12:56] I wish it was 100%.
[03:12:57] Yeah, it might be.
[03:12:58] Yeah.
[03:12:59] It'd be a depends on what you're into.
[03:13:01] Yeah.
[03:13:02] It's hard.
[03:13:03] It was always bizarre to me that when I introduced someone to GJitsu.
[03:13:06] It was a 100%.
[03:13:07] It was a 100%.
[03:13:08] I don't know.
[03:13:09] It's a 100% conversion rate.
[03:13:10] Yeah.
[03:13:11] 100%.
[03:13:12] Oh, you just chokes me and I couldn't stop you.
[03:13:14] I didn't even learn that 100%.
[03:13:15] Otherwise, I go through life vulnerable to being choked by anyone.
[03:13:18] I don't like that feeling.
[03:13:19] Yeah.
[03:13:20] No, I don't like that feeling.
[03:13:22] The mustard too is sprinkled and I mean, heart sprinkle hard, by the way, which is a very critical
[03:13:28] compelling part.
[03:13:29] In my opinion, is this social stuff.
[03:13:31] And I don't mean social like you're just cruising and not learning.
[03:13:34] I mean, the people you meet.
[03:13:36] Oh, yeah.
[03:13:37] Well, you definitely are going to meet good people there because everyone there is in the game
[03:13:41] big dime.
[03:13:42] And they're all looking to get better.
[03:13:43] They're all invested to get better.
[03:13:45] And the other thing is, you know, we're hanging out.
[03:13:49] I said, I mean, yeah, yeah, no, there's me,
[03:13:52] Lave, Dave, J.P. Echo.
[03:13:54] We're not.
[03:13:55] There's no green room.
[03:13:56] It doesn't exist.
[03:13:57] We don't even take breaks.
[03:13:58] Just like when we take a break to let the audience like go to the restaurant or grab a, you know, a cup of coffee or a
[03:14:08] chocolate tea, we just, we just stand there. Like we step down off of stage and we get everything lines up.
[03:14:15] We talk questions and you know what I was doing this time was I was like, instead of answering one person's question just to that person.
[03:14:21] I was in a room.
[03:14:22] Because he's asking the question, everyone coming here is near anybody.
[03:14:25] Hey, there's there's 12 people standing in line.
[03:14:28] Yeah.
[03:14:29] And instead of answering this one question, this one guy was bring no.
[03:14:32] Hey, everyone come up here.
[03:14:33] Come on up here.
[03:14:34] Yeah.
[03:14:34] And you can all hear this because what's your who knows?
[03:14:36] Maybe those are some of those questions. Maybe it's something you're going to experience in the future. I don't know.
[03:14:39] But you might as well listen and maybe you have a better solution than I have.
[03:14:43] Yeah. So it's like a like a little.
[03:14:45] A little break down table. Yeah.
[03:14:46] Break down.
[03:14:47] Yeah.
[03:14:48] Yeah.
[03:14:48] It's cool.
[03:14:49] That's true.
[03:14:50] You.
[03:14:50] We take breaks.
[03:14:51] Everyone, there's breaks throughout the thing.
[03:14:53] You take breaks.
[03:14:54] Yeah.
[03:14:54] Jock on.
[03:14:55] Don't take breaks.
[03:14:56] Because break time is talk time.
[03:14:58] It's talk time.
[03:14:59] You guys.
[03:14:59] You're a little slow.
[03:15:00] Yeah.
[03:15:00] Yeah.
[03:15:01] Sign a book.
[03:15:02] Whatever.
[03:15:03] Yeah.
[03:15:04] No green room.
[03:15:05] No green room.
[03:15:05] So that's the master.
[03:15:07] And by the way, they've sold out all of them that we've done have been sold out.
[03:15:13] Now the next one that we got coming up is September 14th and 15th back the Omni hotel in downtown San Diego, California,
[03:15:19] Master Zero Zero Four.
[03:15:20] It's gonna sell out.
[03:15:22] This is a known fact.
[03:15:23] So if you want to come, it's September 14th and 15th, that is right around the corner.
[03:15:28] Yeah.
[03:15:29] So if you want to come to that, come to that.
[03:15:32] Extremeownership.com is where you can register if you want to.
[03:15:36] Also, by the way, this is interesting.
[03:15:38] If you train you Jitsu or if you're interested in training Jitsu,
[03:15:42] or you're interested in training Jitsu,
[03:15:44] Origin, up in Maine has this immersion camp that they do.
[03:15:50] I'm going.
[03:15:52] Echo's going with me.
[03:15:54] We're going up there.
[03:15:56] It is.
[03:15:57] There's two sessions that they run.
[03:15:59] It's the 20th August, 20th, the 23rd or August 24th through the 27th.
[03:16:04] Those are the two different sessions.
[03:16:05] Or you can come for the whole week.
[03:16:07] Anyways, I'm going to be there for those middle three days.
[03:16:11] Like Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday.
[03:16:12] So I'm going to be there for the last day of the first camp on the first day of the
[03:16:16] lot of the second camp.
[03:16:18] And I'll be on there on the middle day.
[03:16:20] We're going to be training rolling, talking, hanging out, eating lobster, eating
[03:16:24] steaks, just generally getting after it.
[03:16:27] So you're going to origin Maine.com.
[03:16:30] If you want to come up, there's not a lot of spaces for that.
[03:16:33] It's not that's like I think the most they're going to go is 200 people.
[03:16:39] So that's not a lot of spaces.
[03:16:42] So if you want to come up, register quick.
[03:16:45] And I'll see you guys up there in Maine.
[03:16:47] What I like about it is, unlike the monster, where everything is scheduled,
[03:16:52] like we don't have a lot of break time.
[03:16:54] And even the break time is working.
[03:16:56] This thing, I mean, you can only train you, Jitsu.
[03:16:59] What?
[03:17:00] Six hours a day, maybe?
[03:17:01] 10, probably.
[03:17:02] You know what I mean?
[03:17:03] Two hours in the morning, two hours at lunch, two hours in the evening.
[03:17:06] So that's six hours.
[03:17:08] You're going to sleep four hours.
[03:17:09] So you still got 14 hours left in the day.
[03:17:11] So what are we going to do?
[03:17:12] We're going to kick it.
[03:17:13] Yeah.
[03:17:14] We're going to cruise.
[03:17:15] There's a lake.
[03:17:16] There's kayaks.
[03:17:17] There's a zip lines and whatever.
[03:17:20] Yeah.
[03:17:21] We'll just go lay in bed and try and recover from the Jitsu sessions.
[03:17:25] So yeah.
[03:17:26] A bunch of good people coming up, really good after that, if you want to come up and hang out,
[03:17:30] do it.
[03:17:31] And that will work.
[03:17:34] We'll see you up there.
[03:17:35] Either at the monster or we'll see you at the immersion.
[03:17:38] Jitsu, can't wait.
[03:17:39] How do you register for that one?
[03:17:41] OriginMain.com.
[03:17:42] And then you click on the immersion thing and you'll find it.
[03:17:45] You, or you press Google.
[03:17:48] Figure it out.
[03:17:49] Yeah.
[03:17:50] Gotcha.
[03:17:51] Yeah.
[03:17:52] There's a certain element of like if you can't figure it out.
[03:17:54] Yeah.
[03:17:55] And there's also a certain element of like hey register now and go to this thing.
[03:17:59] Oh yeah.
[03:18:00] Today register today.
[03:18:01] Yeah.
[03:18:02] They always think today.
[03:18:03] Yeah.
[03:18:04] I know they say that.
[03:18:05] And today by the time this podcast comes out, I won't even be today.
[03:18:09] Yeah.
[03:18:10] So.
[03:18:12] All right.
[03:18:14] Also.
[03:18:15] Until we're at one of those events.
[03:18:19] If you want to roll with us virtually.
[03:18:23] We are on the interwebs.
[03:18:26] The Twitter, the Instagram, the Facebook.
[03:18:31] Watch.
[03:18:34] Echo is at Echo Charles.
[03:18:36] And I am at Jocco Willink and finally thank you to everyone for listening to this podcast.
[03:18:42] And for supporting this podcast.
[03:18:45] Which, by the way, is made possible by our military.
[03:18:52] Who protects our great nation from evil.
[03:18:57] This podcast is made possible by police law enforcement firefighters EMTs.
[03:19:02] First responders that keep us safe and orderly here at home.
[03:19:11] And it's made possible by each and every one of you out there working in the economy, making
[03:19:19] and creating and building.
[03:19:21] So don't stop doing that.
[03:19:26] And don't ever stop remembering those that went before us.
[03:19:38] Those that still shine down on us.
[03:19:42] And remember that we are not here long.
[03:19:49] And time is fleeting.
[03:19:53] It is ever fleeting.
[03:19:56] So you might as well make it a good hard run.
[03:20:03] And get after it.
[03:20:06] So until next time, this is Echo and Jocco.
[03:20:14] Out.