Jocko Podcast #6 - With Echo Charles | Napoleon | Aggression | Mind Control

2016-01-20T18:02:39Z

Navy SEAL, Jocko Willink and Director, Echo Charles discuss winning tactics. Internet questions: Agression, Jiu Jitsu Academies, Character Judgement, and Mind Control. @jockowillink @echocharles Available on iTunes and Stitcher.

AI summary of episode

and you know that if you get ambushed here which you're gonna do you're gonna break contact or you're gonna you know flank the enemy or whatever the case may be but you're gonna know what to do in a business environment it's the same thing there's times where instant communication isn't fast enough you know I actually see this when we work with like sales people and you know there'll be some hierarchy of adjusting product pricing and you know a client will come in or a customer will come in and and if that person if that front line sales person doesn't have the ability to make a pricing decision on the spot and say you know what sir I see you you know you've you've shopped us around and this is the deal you've got over there I can do here I can take care of you we can beat that price if you can't do that he's gonna lose you know if he goes let me check with my manager sure he could hang on to but there's a chance he's gonna lose him so sometimes instantaneous isn't fast enough you know it's gotta be it's gotta be quicker it's gotta be able to happen with no communications and that's that's what this is referring to it ought it ought then to be adopted as a principle that the columns of an army should always be kept united so that when the enemy cannot thrust themselves between them this is something that I always preached to my seal leadership and that is that separating your forces and sometimes you do have to do it the passage from the defensive to the offensive is one of the most delicate operations of war and I actually have a note of what I think is the most difficult operation of war and that is linking up under fire and again you know what now I'm talking tactically to two two people that are listening to the show that are currently serving in the military in the police linking up with other units other from the units under fire is one of the most difficult things to do because there's so much confusion people are shooting you're trying to bring friendly units together there can be bad guys in between you and obviously if there's bad guys in between you and the other good guys and you have to shoot at the bad guys that means you're shooting at good guys too your bullets can hit them so it's a very very very challenging thing to do so be careful when it comes time to link up under fire and you know what I think of when I think of this I think of when you see companies merge it's they're you know they're they're moving together and there's just it's a very challenging there's confusion there's a disorder there's a there's a merging of the chain of commands of two different groups so it's it's very challenging and so anybody that's going into some kind of a merger scenario you've got to recognize out of the gate that this is one of the most hardest military operations and one of the hardest business operations to do so you've got to be aggressive with it you've got to plan it you've got to be clear about it you've got to do it in a simple way don't think that you're just gonna merge two companies together So so aggression Definitely comes into play but For instance in a leadership position if you're completely aggressive all the time your Subordinance will not want to Communicate with you they want to debate with you they want to say hey boss I don't agree with what you're saying here because it afraid you're gonna go hey you don't know what you're talking about We're gonna go my way out of the highway that's what they're gonna expect so you can't be overbearing You know on the mat you can't exhaust yourself with aggression And that's one of the things you know that I think from Purple the brown belt which is you know your your Six to eight years in the game is where people start to calm down and realize that that aggression needs to be Tampered and control and people have to relax um And We could go throughout military history and find case upon case where I would tell you yes absolutely that commander made a wise decision to surrender and you know that's there are situations where that happens But I think the main point of this is that to have that out there To have that as a thing right right is not smart is not smart and you know Going in with MMA fighters and telling them like listen if you get caught in a submission don't tap Let it break If you get put to choke go to sleep just There's no submission you are not tapping Now I've said that to guys and I've had some guys get out of some crazy Submissions that they should adapt and maybe they got a little bit injured, but they got out and I'm also had guys get caught in like some devastating Submissions and then like oh, you know what okay, I'm gonna tap because But the fact that that attitude wasn't out there Right dancers you're not you're not gonna if you're not gonna know where you are and you're not gonna see how you evolve and when I work with businesses I use the same principles Businesses will go out and operate off of instinct Now you have to trust your instinct and you have to understand it, but you all have to track what the facts are You know I'd say like where you're metrics how do you know what you did Last year this time in Profitability how do you know what you did in sales but you know you always need to be close enough to each other to support each other so if you know you shouldn't be getting you're you and your element shouldn't be getting any further away from me in my element then we could be able to support you so what's the range of my guns what's the accurate range of my guns you know if I can shoot three or four hundred five hundred meters you know if you have eight guys now I have eight guys and now we're getting further than that apart that means I really can't support you so now we're alone and that's not how you want to be so again there's times where people have to take calculated risks but we always would say you know keep that keep together stay together as much as you can and and again this is it There's a you got to give a little leeway there if you jump into a class that's an advanced class You're not gonna understand everything you know and people ask me on how to get started on Jitsu and I tell him go immersion training Just like a language just get in there and start training and you're gonna get Destroyed at first and then you're gonna slowly learn and the next thing You know that's a fastest way to learn languages to get immersed in it and do the same thing with Jitsu Is the instructor Having fun. I don't know if people have that really interested in that I think a lot of times people want a formula and I don't think I'm gonna give out a formula because the formula is gonna be different for different people at different times and their lives and ages and Body weights and you know male or female they're just all so many variables and so this is again as a leader in a leadership position this He's basically saying look at the moment of combat all year young and screaming and trying to motivate people is too late The veterans like the veterans aren't gonna listen to you and their crutes that once the cannon goes off They're not here and you either so your main focus needs to be You know during the the non-fire fight scenarios that's when you get people with the mindset that's gonna drive them through these bad situations If you're trying to do this trying to encourage people during the during the firefight you're late Theme of the night nothing is more important in war than unity in command When therefore you are carrying on hostilities against a single power only you should have but one army acting on one line and led by one commander Does that even need Explanation not really Unity of command There are certain things in war of which the commander alone comprehends the importance Nothing but his superior firmness and ability can subdue and surround all difficulties This is the burden of command. I'm just a lost Animal out in the woods So you have to you know build these principles and like you said And I think there's a difference between Being a flip flop or like you know your hip politicians get you know, oh your flip flop or because you said you don't support kind of troll and now you and now you You do you do support it now you don't support or whatever or you do support Bring it in refugees or not so and people get to call the flip flop or and yeah say mustard is that so and so next one a well established maximum for is not to do anything which your enemy wishes and for the single reason that he does so wish okay that is pretty self explanatory don't do anything that your enemy wants you to do you should therefore avoid a field of battle which he is reconnoidered and studied you should still you should be still more careful to avoid one which he has fortified and where he has entrenched himself a corollary of this principle is never to attack in front a position which admits of being turned so one of the one of the the biggest pieces that I take away from this and this is you should still be more careful to avoid one which he has fortified and where he hasn't entrenched himself I used to give my guys warnings about this about these fixed positions that are entrenched and I wasn't talking about combat you know what I was talking about I was talking about debates because you there's guys in the seal teams that would lure you into some kind of a debate about let's say the strategy that the seal teams were using at the strategy the way things that they the way they thought things should be done and the thing is these guys would sit there and have this argument with amongst themselves and with other people and so they would they would have these kind of fortified positions on them and you roll into it and you're like you've got your experience That's what they do You know, privation I look that word up actually a state in which Things that are essential for human well being are lacking And that's what they do and You know for me You know, I was talking about like you know, I don't sleep a lot awake up early. yeah you got to be aggressive to be a leader You've got to be Because if you're gonna make things happen you've got to be aggressive to make things happen You have to make things happen, you know, I always say people like all they want to make money I'm like

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Episode transcript

[00:00:00] This is Jocco podcast number six with Echo Charles and me, Jocco Willink.
[00:00:11] Time to get back to the books.
[00:00:14] Last time I read some letters and today we're going back to the books and actually this
[00:00:22] one is kind of hard pressed or it's a stretch to call this a book.
[00:00:26] But I've given some pretty, you know, the last hundred yards is a very rare piece of
[00:00:34] piece of literature if you could even call it that.
[00:00:39] Same with battle leadership.
[00:00:41] That's pretty rare.
[00:00:42] Now that one can be found on the internet.
[00:00:44] About face was a pretty popular book.
[00:00:48] But this one tonight we're going with something that many people have heard of or at a minimum.
[00:00:56] The word of Napoleon.
[00:00:57] Right?
[00:00:58] It's a very leader.
[00:00:59] But what's interesting about this and what's almost makes it cheating from my perspective
[00:01:05] for me is that these are maximums.
[00:01:08] These are already parsed down and put into a format.
[00:01:12] That's very easy to understand.
[00:01:13] You know, the work has already been done.
[00:01:18] And I'll tell you, it is hard for me to find books or pieces of information to do this
[00:01:27] with.
[00:01:28] And part of the reason is it takes a, it takes, I'm looking for something very specific.
[00:01:37] Right?
[00:01:38] And it's not, you know, there's a lot of, there's tons of great books about war and they
[00:01:44] are about war.
[00:01:46] What happened and how the war happened and what tactics were used and what unit moved
[00:01:54] where and how many people they killed and how many maneuvers they did.
[00:01:59] And so that's very interesting.
[00:02:00] And there's definitely lessons to be learned from that.
[00:02:02] And there is knowledge and there's knowledge inside of tactics.
[00:02:08] And you know, the most common one is like, if you talk about the flank, which is the most
[00:02:12] common tactic is, you know, if you're assaulting a target, you go straight on.
[00:02:19] And that's, that's a frontal assault.
[00:02:22] But then what you want to do is you want to swing around the outside and hit them from
[00:02:26] where they're not protecting themselves.
[00:02:27] So that's a tactic that can be applied to, you know, anything.
[00:02:30] It can be applied to a debate.
[00:02:32] It can be applied to jujitsu.
[00:02:34] It can be applied to business situations where you know you want to hit your competition
[00:02:38] where they aren't expecting it.
[00:02:39] So that's a flank.
[00:02:40] So there is knowledge to be gained from tactics for sure.
[00:02:44] But what I am always more interested in is the leadership.
[00:02:49] And the human psychology, you know, and that's why I love battle, battle leadership because
[00:02:57] that first chapter is battle field psychology.
[00:03:03] And this is pre, you know, this is World War I.
[00:03:06] You know, there was no kind of foo foo new age, hay, feelings and what are people?
[00:03:13] No, all that stuff didn't exist.
[00:03:14] And here's this guy talking about battle field psychology.
[00:03:19] But that's what I'm always interested in.
[00:03:21] That's what I want to explore.
[00:03:22] That's what I want to learn about.
[00:03:24] That's what I want to compare my experiences to because, and I've said this before,
[00:03:30] and leadership is the most challenging of all endeavors and leading these human beings with
[00:03:37] all these variables is the most challenging and therefore the most rewarding.
[00:03:43] So while the tactics are important and you can gain from them, it's how the people react,
[00:03:50] what they do, where they go, those are the things that stand the test of time.
[00:03:57] And that's always what I'm looking for.
[00:03:59] So these kind of things are the things that allow you as a leader of other people to look
[00:04:12] at those examples and learn from them and gain from them.
[00:04:15] And there will be little changes and little adjustments and you can see that there's
[00:04:21] changes over time, but the basic principles no matter when you can always learn from them.
[00:04:29] And it's the same thing with the tactics like, for instance, when we were fighting in an
[00:04:35] Iraq and Afghanistan, then I did not fight in Afghanistan, but one of my good buddies
[00:04:40] that fought with me in Iraq, and we brought back a lot of tactics and learned a lot of
[00:04:47] lessons and he said, after we went to Afghanistan, he said, that's the same thing.
[00:04:51] And people say, it's totally different.
[00:04:56] And so he fought in both, and he says, yeah, in Iraq, where we weren't, in Ramadi,
[00:05:02] he goes in Ramadi, and in Iraq, it's streets and buildings.
[00:05:08] And you get the elevated positions on the buildings, and then you've got control over the
[00:05:11] streets, and he goes in Afghanistan, it's valleys and hills, and you get the elevated
[00:05:16] position on the hills, and it's pretty much the same thing.
[00:05:20] Are there differences?
[00:05:21] Absolutely.
[00:05:22] You know, but I'm saying the basic principles that he learned he was able to apply.
[00:05:27] And again, not that I don't always keep an open mind that things can change and things
[00:05:33] unexpected things will happen.
[00:05:35] But that's sort of where, you know, what I'm always looking for.
[00:05:40] So that's why there's a lot of war books that I love to read and read, but I don't take
[00:05:47] away the same types of lessons that I want to talk to people about.
[00:05:54] Or that I think people want to talk to about.
[00:05:55] It'd be a different program.
[00:05:57] It would be a different program.
[00:05:58] And maybe we should do a program that's aimed at, you know, military people that are
[00:06:06] concerned about tactics, because that is definitely something that I, that I kind of worshiped
[00:06:11] tactics.
[00:06:12] I love talking about tactics, but for the, for normal people and and for military leaders,
[00:06:21] learning about how people react is to me kind of what's important and what I like to
[00:06:30] explore.
[00:06:31] Right.
[00:06:32] So interesting.
[00:06:34] I had a couple of things about Napoleon.
[00:06:36] Everyone knows, you know, something about Napoleon.
[00:06:42] A couple of cool facts about him.
[00:06:43] And this is going into this book here, which, which the book is actually called Ruch of
[00:06:48] Strategy.
[00:06:49] It's got a bunch of different, bunch of different sections to it.
[00:06:53] And it's different leaders, different historical leaders throughout time.
[00:06:57] And this section on Napoleon, Napoleon, going into the book here, Napoleon fought more
[00:07:02] battles than Alexander Hannibal and Caesar combined.
[00:07:08] He is beyond any doubt the greatest of European soldiers.
[00:07:12] So pretty good lead in.
[00:07:14] We were talking about a guy with some knowledge.
[00:07:16] He astounded his opponents by the crushing rapidity of his battles.
[00:07:22] He marched against the enemy and his plan of battle was a part of his plan of march.
[00:07:28] So he's a guy that used mobility and used the quickness in the pace to dictate how the battles
[00:07:35] were going to go.
[00:07:36] His tactical system or scheme of battle was based on a holding attack against the enemy's
[00:07:43] front to keep them occupied.
[00:07:45] A wide development or turning movement on the enemy's rear with a small force to spread
[00:07:50] dismay and confusion in the defenders ranks.
[00:07:53] And then the decisive though.
[00:07:55] So that's what we just talked about.
[00:07:57] He was sort of a master of the flank.
[00:07:59] Hey, I'm going to do a good assault.
[00:08:00] You're going to be paying attention to that.
[00:08:02] And then from the side or the rear or somewhere that you're not expecting, you're getting
[00:08:07] submitted.
[00:08:08] And that's what he did.
[00:08:10] Napoleon was the first great strategist of the Western world.
[00:08:16] His battles were the result of his strategic movements and were carefully calculated.
[00:08:22] Very.
[00:08:24] I would say that anyone that associates anyone that thinks of Napoleon, thinks of him as
[00:08:30] a strategist and a great strategist.
[00:08:34] Now this collection of his maxims was published in Paris in 1827.
[00:08:41] And almost immediately was translated into German, English, Spanish, and Italian.
[00:08:46] Stonewall Jackson carried these maxims in his haversac throughout his campaign.
[00:08:52] This little volume states Colonel Henderson, who is Jackson's biography, contains a fairly
[00:09:00] complete exposition in Napoleon's own words of the grand principles of war.
[00:09:09] And then the person that actually compiled the maxims.
[00:09:14] And this is actually this is a statement that is very similar to what I started off talking
[00:09:22] about what I like to learn about.
[00:09:25] The art of war is susceptible of being considered under two titles, the one which rests
[00:09:32] entirely on the knowledge and genius of the commander, the other on matters of detail.
[00:09:38] Now, they're going to break that down a little bit further.
[00:09:42] The first is the same for all time, for all peoples, whatever arms with which they fight.
[00:09:51] On this it follows that the same principles have directed the great captains of all centuries.
[00:09:57] So that's what I like to read about.
[00:10:01] Those same principles that have directed the great captains of all centuries.
[00:10:08] Those basic principles and a lot of those have to do with human nature.
[00:10:12] And then it goes on to say that the matters of detail and what he's talking about matters
[00:10:16] details he's talking about tactics on the contrary are subject to the influence of time,
[00:10:21] to the spirit of the people and the character of armor.
[00:10:24] And so that's when you change from having bone arrows to rifles to machine guns to bombs to
[00:10:29] whatever.
[00:10:30] And so there are drastic changes in those tactics.
[00:10:35] And that's why while they interest me, and I always like to find a common thread in
[00:10:41] tactics and say, oh, I had the same thing that we do that they didn't war war one.
[00:10:45] We do that now or whatever.
[00:10:47] You know, I'm always looking to find that thread, but it's sometimes it can be hard to find.
[00:10:53] And sometimes it doesn't exist to any great degree whereas the way people act, the way
[00:10:59] human beings respond to combat situations, it doesn't change as much.
[00:11:07] Yeah, you would think if you go deep enough or fundamental enough that it's not surprising
[00:11:14] that it won't change because dealing with people in their needs and like almost on a biological
[00:11:20] level, like psychologically, a lot of times biologically, you know, preservation of life plays
[00:11:25] a big part.
[00:11:28] So yet technology can advance, even social stuff can advance, but that those fundamental
[00:11:34] needs typically see the same.
[00:11:36] And you're right, but if you think about this and we talked about this last time like
[00:11:38] with World War One, you know, these basic needs for survival, these men would just
[00:11:46] just through them out the window.
[00:11:48] I mean, it's just absolutely crazy.
[00:11:51] They disregarded that drive and just went over the top into hell and into machine gun
[00:11:58] fires.
[00:11:59] Does that kind of go along the lines with something that is still here in a big way
[00:12:03] where they kind of put their own personal needs?
[00:12:07] They're, you know, they're, they're need to survive personally.
[00:12:10] They put the need for their mission or their honor to survive.
[00:12:18] They put that in front of their need to survive personally.
[00:12:20] And that doesn't, that kind of translate even now.
[00:12:23] That's how, like, yes.
[00:12:24] Yes, I mean, I guess if we say that that's a normal human trait, which I don't know if
[00:12:31] it is or not, that I think it's something that gets learned.
[00:12:35] I don't think it's a inherent normal, normal trait.
[00:12:38] Unless you say, look, people have an inherent trait to make their tribe their family survive.
[00:12:44] Yeah.
[00:12:45] And maybe that's it.
[00:12:46] Yeah, that's what I was going to say.
[00:12:47] That's exactly what I was going to say.
[00:12:48] So military culture, especially when you, when you deal with the elite, where doing a good
[00:12:54] job to put a lightly doing a good job is very important.
[00:13:02] You would think that that culture cultivates that need to put the mission in front of my own
[00:13:06] personal stuff.
[00:13:07] So, and so deep into that, that individual that it does most of the time Trump, they're
[00:13:13] need.
[00:13:14] Yeah, personally.
[00:13:15] You know what, you're right, and that thread actually we can go through all of
[00:13:18] history and find a thread of groups of people that sacrificed and put their mission
[00:13:26] or the group had to themselves.
[00:13:28] Yes.
[00:13:29] Yes.
[00:13:30] And then, especially with the 300 Spartans, I mean, that's a classic example.
[00:13:33] Yeah.
[00:13:34] And even if you thought and died for their country.
[00:13:39] Yeah.
[00:13:40] And even people who aren't in the military, we understand that that's how elite soldiers
[00:13:46] are.
[00:13:47] You know, we understand that, oh, yeah, they, they, that's an elite soldier, one who will
[00:13:51] put his life on the line for the mission for the country.
[00:13:54] We all understand that.
[00:13:56] And you use the term elite, but I will not use the term elite because I've seen every
[00:14:02] soldier who wouldn't be considered elite.
[00:14:05] Right.
[00:14:06] I've seen them all.
[00:14:07] Right.
[00:14:08] Do that.
[00:14:09] Yeah.
[00:14:10] Marines do that.
[00:14:11] And US Army soldiers and, and, you know, the, the, the, the, untrained reserveist
[00:14:17] that doesn't really, you know, hasn't been through the kind of training that we have
[00:14:21] at all, but they will have that.
[00:14:23] So it has nothing to do really with, which actually proves your point even more is that
[00:14:28] it doesn't even have to do with your level of training or you're so called being elite.
[00:14:32] Right.
[00:14:33] That has to do with your dedication to the mission and the people that are with you.
[00:14:35] So yeah.
[00:14:36] But yeah, I guess the better than better than a word than elite would be, I guess,
[00:14:42] just like a dedicated soldier, just soldier in general.
[00:14:45] Yes.
[00:14:46] So back to the book here.
[00:14:49] A plan.
[00:14:50] Because I will get into the maximums and I'm not, obviously, it'll do all of them.
[00:14:53] But I picked out the ones that I kind of fought have the most talk about human nature.
[00:14:59] But at the same time, also talk about from a leadership perspective planning execution,
[00:15:05] if they are important and they are universal, then I, I put them in here and this is kind
[00:15:09] of one of them that I just talked about with planning.
[00:15:11] A plan of campaign should anticipate everything which the enemy can do and contain within
[00:15:16] itself the means of forwarding him.
[00:15:20] The means of campaign may be infinitely modified according to the circumstances.
[00:15:25] This is exactly what we heard on battle leadership from Vaughan Shell.
[00:15:32] Is that?
[00:15:33] So he just said, you know, the plan should anticipate everything.
[00:15:35] But then he goes on to say, plans of campaign may be infinitely modified according to the
[00:15:39] circumstances, the genius of the commander, the quality of the troops and its biography
[00:15:46] of the theater of war.
[00:15:47] So this is again a common thread that we hear all the time and that is you got to have
[00:15:51] adaptability and you've got to be.
[00:15:53] And one of the biggest hinderances to adaptability is ego is when you say, you know what, my
[00:16:01] plan is awesome.
[00:16:02] My plan is my plan is the best and I'm just going to ride my plan into the ground and take
[00:16:07] everyone down with me because I don't have the humility to admit that my plan went wrong,
[00:16:13] to admit that the enemy did something I didn't expect to admit that I have shortfalls
[00:16:17] with my troops or whatever the case may be and say, you know what, I need to adapt.
[00:16:21] I'm going to do it now.
[00:16:27] Next one.
[00:16:30] All wars should be systematic for every wars should have an aim and be conducted in conformity
[00:16:37] with the principles and rules of the art.
[00:16:40] Wars should be undertaken with forces corresponding to the magnitude of the obstacles that
[00:16:46] are to be anticipated.
[00:16:49] Now what caught me about that one was recently I got to ask a bunch of questions about
[00:16:57] the situation in Iraq and Syria and one of the things people want to throw out there because
[00:17:03] it's a catchy buzzword or group of buzzwords and that's you know boots on the ground and
[00:17:13] you're kept getting asked well how many boots on the ground do we need?
[00:17:18] How many troops do we need to put on the ground?
[00:17:21] My answer was the same every time which is we put as many troops on the ground as it takes
[00:17:27] to wind and to wind decisively and without question.
[00:17:32] That's how you go to war.
[00:17:38] Now this is another little maximum which I really like at the commencement of a campaign
[00:17:48] the question whether to advance or not requires careful deliberation.
[00:17:52] So before you go into war you you carefully deliberate and this is something that I've
[00:17:59] been talking about lately when people think that because I'm a soldier because I'm a
[00:18:08] warrior that I want to go to war and I want my friends to go to war which is just a
[00:18:13] ridiculous statement.
[00:18:14] If there's anybody that understands the impact of war it's guys that have been to war.
[00:18:22] So this careful deliberation before you commence a campaign is exactly what should be
[00:18:28] done and then it goes on to say.
[00:18:32] But when you have once undertaken the offensive it should be maintained to the last
[00:18:39] extremity right that's commitment that is commitment.
[00:18:45] Now I will say this even on that and that's a beautiful thing you should maintain to the
[00:18:51] last extremity that's an extreme statement and I will tell you that you got to balance
[00:18:57] that and you want to maintain that but what I just said is that you know if your plan
[00:19:02] isn't working you got to put your ego in check and figure out a new plan.
[00:19:05] So yeah you want to maintain it to the last extremity but just short of the last
[00:19:10] extremity is okay do an ego check and make sure you've got a good plan going.
[00:19:15] A retreat however skillful the maneuvers may be will always produce an injurious moral
[00:19:22] effect on the army.
[00:19:24] Since by losing chances of success yourself you throw them into the hands of the enemy.
[00:19:30] Besides retreats cost far more both in men and material than the most bloody engagements
[00:19:38] with this difference.
[00:19:40] That in battle the enemy loses nearly much as you while on retreat the loss is all on
[00:19:46] your side.
[00:19:48] Again a common thread that we talk about with Vaunchel with Hackworth in that is being on
[00:19:55] the offensive is good.
[00:20:01] Being on the offensive is always better than being on the defensive.
[00:20:08] This is another I hope I don't know what I'm saying this for every one of these maxons.
[00:20:16] But these are you know and it's not surprising that you do say this before each one of these
[00:20:21] maxons you go wow this is an impactful and this is important I've heard this before this is another
[00:20:26] way of reinstating the same topic that we say all the time.
[00:20:31] A general should say to himself many times a day if the hostile army were to make his
[00:20:36] make its appearance in front on my right or on my left what should I do.
[00:20:44] And if he is embarrassed his arrangements are bad there is something wrong he must
[00:20:51] rectify his mistake.
[00:20:53] So this is the humility of constantly asking yourself okay if I got hit from the flank
[00:20:59] right now what would I do how would I handle it am I ready for that if I'm not ready for
[00:21:04] how do I make that change so constantly assessing yourself seeing where you're at seeing
[00:21:09] how you're doing that's a common thread not just for war but for being a man and being a human
[00:21:18] being a woman being a being a person that's trying to be successful are you looking at looking
[00:21:24] around and you know things I'm always most nervous when things are going well when things are
[00:21:29] going well I'm always thinking okay when when is the bad thing going to come and hit me you know
[00:21:34] how do I prepare for that how do I watch out for it how do I flank that thing before happens to
[00:21:39] yeah a lot of times people will get in the in a way revel in the success right and then they'll get
[00:21:45] used to it it'll get good to them you used to it and then yeah one something does go bad or just
[00:21:50] different you're going to lie down and decide it yeah they're just so into that success and
[00:21:55] immersing themselves in in that success then yeah they didn't know what to do I was uh we my first
[00:22:01] deployment to Iraq we were doing assaults and capturing bad guys and we got a guy and then we went
[00:22:10] and got another guy right right on top of them we interrogated that guy we wouldn't go we broke down
[00:22:15] some sell and my commanding officer at the time he came to me he said hey jokko that those you
[00:22:23] know I think it was four missions in a row within 24 hour period and he said hey those operations
[00:22:31] that was awesome awesome work you know tell your platoon they did a great job getting the
[00:22:35] information going back out there quick planning cycle it was just fantastic you know those are
[00:22:41] very admirable and I just looked into my said give us 24 hours and we'll screw it up and I just
[00:22:48] you don't want to set expectations that's how that's how that's too avoid what you were talking
[00:22:53] about to avoid be like that's right you know I said no you know what sir give us 24 hours and
[00:22:58] we'll screw it up right do you ever fear like in the we're in that particular case that um he could
[00:23:04] look at at it as dang are you being negative or because obviously you're not given what you're saying
[00:23:10] you're not being negative you're checking yourself the whole time and but do you fear that that
[00:23:15] either hand but either you're commanding officer or anyone would take that as dang this guy's
[00:23:19] a person there something like that no I had a good great relationship with my with all my
[00:23:24] commanding officers you know why we say that's my responsibility you have a great relationship with
[00:23:28] these guys and so he knew that I was just being humble and making sure that we're not good
[00:23:32] talking even though he was trying to fire me up and you know he's probably trying to do that
[00:23:36] because everyone was kind of burned out I mean from doing staying awake for a long period of time
[00:23:40] and doing a bunch of hobs and he was just trying to you know give some compliments and yeah I just said
[00:23:45] hey sir you know let's not let's not get crazy here yeah long deployment ahead of us still so
[00:23:52] you gotta be careful about
[00:23:55] to operate upon lines remote from each other and without communications between them is a
[00:24:08] fault which ordinarily occasions a second the detached column has orders only for the first day
[00:24:17] its operations for the second day may depend on what has happened to the main body
[00:24:21] thus according to circumstances the column wasted time in waiting for orders or acts randomly
[00:24:30] so what that means is you've got multiple elements out there and you've got the main element
[00:24:36] and whoever breaks off from that main element they might know what to do the first day
[00:24:41] but what do they do the second day and this is just going into classic decentralized command
[00:24:46] because in reality today in today's world this rarely happens where we lose total communications
[00:24:53] and in the business world I mean I'm a text away you can literally talk to me
[00:24:57] at instantaneously but there's there's times in combat and in the business world and in life
[00:25:06] where instantaneously isn't fast enough you know it is not fast enough when we talk about this
[00:25:10] with decentralized command if you know you get ambushed and you don't know what you're supposed to do
[00:25:17] as a commander when you get ambushed you don't have a plan you don't have an overall strategy
[00:25:23] then what do you gonna call back to higher headquarters and say hey jocca we're getting ambushed right now
[00:25:27] what do you want me to do no I've you you gotta be out there in the field with the with the commanders
[00:25:33] intent that you know what what you're supposed to do and you know that if you get ambushed here
[00:25:37] which you're gonna do you're gonna break contact or you're gonna you know flank the enemy
[00:25:41] or whatever the case may be but you're gonna know what to do in a business environment it's the same thing
[00:25:48] there's times where instant communication isn't fast enough you know I actually see this
[00:25:53] when we work with like sales people and you know there'll be some hierarchy of adjusting
[00:26:02] product pricing and you know a client will come in or a customer will come in
[00:26:06] and and if that person if that front line sales person doesn't have the ability to make a
[00:26:13] pricing decision on the spot and say you know what sir I see you you know you've you've shopped
[00:26:18] us around and this is the deal you've got over there I can do here I can take care of you we can
[00:26:23] beat that price if you can't do that he's gonna lose you know if he goes let me check with my
[00:26:27] manager sure he could hang on to but there's a chance he's gonna lose him so sometimes instantaneous
[00:26:33] isn't fast enough you know it's gotta be it's gotta be quicker it's gotta be able to happen
[00:26:38] with no communications and that's that's what this is referring to it ought it ought then
[00:26:46] to be adopted as a principle that the columns of an army should always be kept united
[00:26:50] so that when the enemy cannot thrust themselves between them
[00:26:53] this is something that I always preached to my seal leadership and that is that
[00:27:05] separating your forces and sometimes you do have to do it and it's and it's a completely
[00:27:09] acceptable tactic but it's always better to be unified it's always better to be close enough
[00:27:17] that you can in fact you can be separate but you know you always need to be close enough to each other
[00:27:23] to support each other so if you know you shouldn't be getting you're you and your element shouldn't
[00:27:28] be getting any further away from me in my element then we could be able to support you so what's
[00:27:33] the range of my guns what's the accurate range of my guns you know if I can shoot three or four
[00:27:37] hundred five hundred meters you know if you have eight guys now I have eight guys and now we're
[00:27:42] getting further than that apart that means I really can't support you so now we're alone
[00:27:48] and that's not how you want to be so again there's times where people have to take calculated
[00:27:52] risks but we always would say you know keep that keep together stay together as much as you can
[00:28:03] and and again this is it I'm I'm talking tactics now this is like for people that are in the military
[00:28:08] that are listening to this podcast there's something to keep in the back of your mind stay where you
[00:28:13] can cover and move stay where you can mutually support one another
[00:28:17] hmm they should move oh when for any reason this maximum is departed from the detach core
[00:28:28] should be independent in their operations they should move towards a fixed point at which they are
[00:28:33] you to unite they should march without hesitation and without new orders and should be exposed as
[00:28:39] little as possible to the danger being attacked separately this to me goes into contingencies
[00:28:43] where if we do get separated you've got to know okay if I get separated and it's been an hour
[00:28:49] I'm going to this fixed point and we're gonna make it happen yeah that's something you're at the
[00:28:52] mall yeah I was just gonna say when you got a family this is something you actually have to legit come
[00:28:57] up with okay if we get separated here's what I'm meeting here's what time and by the way if we don't
[00:29:00] make that muster for whatever reason the next one will be here and so you got to have a little
[00:29:05] contingency planning with the fam make sure it's all good what is muster me muster means bringing
[00:29:11] everyone together and counts how many people you have I'm gonna say that next time yeah say
[00:29:17] mustard is that so and so next one a well established maximum for is not to do anything
[00:29:28] which your enemy wishes and for the single reason that he does so wish okay that is pretty
[00:29:35] self explanatory don't do anything that your enemy wants you to do you should therefore
[00:29:41] avoid a field of battle which he is reconnoidered and studied you should still you should be
[00:29:49] still more careful to avoid one which he has fortified and where he has entrenched himself
[00:29:58] a corollary of this principle is never to attack in front a position which admits of being turned
[00:30:07] so one of the one of the the biggest pieces that I take away from this and this is you should
[00:30:15] still be more careful to avoid one which he has fortified and where he hasn't entrenched himself
[00:30:22] I used to give my guys warnings about this about these fixed positions that are entrenched
[00:30:31] and I wasn't talking about combat you know what I was talking about I was talking about debates
[00:30:38] because you there's guys in the seal teams that would lure you into some kind of a debate about
[00:30:49] let's say the strategy that the seal teams were using at the strategy the way things that
[00:30:55] they the way they thought things should be done and the thing is these guys would sit there
[00:31:03] and have this argument with amongst themselves and with other people and so they would they would
[00:31:08] have these kind of fortified positions on them and you roll into it and you're like you've got your
[00:31:13] experience but you're not ready for a debate on it you're not ready for these fortified positions
[00:31:18] that you're going to throw at you so don't engage in these battles and you know it's like
[00:31:24] I was doing Sam Harris's podcast you know and I went up there and there were some things that
[00:31:33] I thought you know he might ask me about some of these philosophical opinions on things and of course
[00:31:39] I mean I was ready to have a discussion but what I wasn't ready to do was like stand my ground
[00:31:46] on the topic of free will with Sam Harris a guy that's literally written an entire block which is
[00:31:55] called free will and he has his own so for me to engage with him it's an entrenched position it's
[00:32:00] something that I'm not going to I'm not going to win and in fact you know it's not it's not like
[00:32:08] Sam Harris is a pretty mellow guy it's not going to go to the government but I wasn't going to
[00:32:12] make any practical points you know and so I'm just always very cautious and again in the business
[00:32:19] world you get people that understand some part of their business so well you have to be very careful
[00:32:27] you have to plan when you're going to engage with them because otherwise you're going to get just
[00:32:33] you know destroyed mm-hmm yeah Sam Harris is a position on free will is pretty fortified
[00:32:42] out yeah and it's and and and the scary thing is is that you can actually be right about something
[00:32:49] but if you're going to get someone that's got a fortified position you can still lose the argument
[00:32:54] and look stupid not that there's anything wrong with looking stupid but you know you want to pick
[00:32:58] your battles I mean right yeah not that Sam Harris isn't right or anything like that
[00:33:04] yeah I'm the same in general yeah no no no I wasn't definitely wasn't talking specifically about
[00:33:09] about Sam Harris that's just a great example because again it's a guy that's literally written a book
[00:33:15] called free will yeah so if he wants to talk about it and I want to say no I don't agree with you
[00:33:20] he's just ready for that you know just like if he reset you know what hey let's let's train
[00:33:25] you jutsu I'm ready for that I've been in every position that that's going to happen in jutsu
[00:33:31] I've been in there a thousand more times than him yeah because I've been training for a really long time
[00:33:36] so we have that discussion about free will it's going to be the same thing I'm just not going to
[00:33:40] we have this thing to the table is that kind of like the guys who who are really into conspiracy theories
[00:33:46] you know and they if they present it to you they're going to have all this research and website
[00:33:51] and documentaries that they went to and you're you know yeah even even if your facts are like
[00:33:56] stronger they have so many other weapons and they're ready for that war they're ready for their
[00:34:00] lunch and fortified like are you're saying yeah yeah that's a hard word to win yeah because I'm
[00:34:07] not going to go like we've talked about before I'm not going to go and dig through the interwebs
[00:34:12] and watch video upon video about just to fight that war just to fight to it's not even necessarily
[00:34:16] to prove anything right or right it's just you got just to fight and win that war yeah the passage
[00:34:23] from the defensive to the offensive is one of the most delicate operations of war and I actually have
[00:34:30] a note of what I think is the most difficult operation of war and that is linking up under fire
[00:34:39] and again you know what now I'm talking tactically to two two people that are listening to the
[00:34:46] show that are currently serving in the military in the police linking up with other units
[00:34:52] other from the units under fire is one of the most difficult things to do because there's so much
[00:34:57] confusion people are shooting you're trying to bring friendly units together there can be bad
[00:35:03] guys in between you and obviously if there's bad guys in between you and the other good guys and
[00:35:07] you have to shoot at the bad guys that means you're shooting at good guys too your bullets can hit them
[00:35:12] so it's a very very very challenging thing to do so be careful when it comes time to link up
[00:35:20] under fire and you know what I think of when I think of this I think of when you see companies
[00:35:38] merge it's they're you know they're they're moving together and there's just it's a very
[00:35:47] challenging there's confusion there's a disorder there's a there's a merging of the chain of
[00:35:56] commands of two different groups so it's it's very challenging and so anybody that's going into
[00:36:02] some kind of a merger scenario you've got to recognize out of the gate that this is one of the
[00:36:06] most hardest military operations and one of the hardest business operations to do so you've got
[00:36:11] to be aggressive with it you've got to plan it you've got to be clear about it you've got to do it
[00:36:16] in a simple way don't think that you're just gonna merge two companies together and it's
[00:36:22] going to be all good it's a very challenging event to participate in.
[00:36:35] It is a violation of correct principles to cause cores to act separately without communication
[00:36:42] with each other in the face of a concentrated army with easy communications.
[00:36:51] This is the same theme this idea that you want to stay together you want to work together you want
[00:36:58] to and I'll fill this word out there in case people didn't catch the first time I said it the word
[00:37:03] mutually support or the words mutually support you want to mutually support each other.
[00:37:07] Now what we find in the business world is you get different elements inside of a company
[00:37:14] that do not work together they don't communicate with each other and it's the same thing as
[00:37:20] being out on the battlefield and you got your platoon and I got my platoon and if we're not talking
[00:37:25] how are we helping each other it's we're not and if we if you try and hit the enemy
[00:37:32] and the enemy's bigger and stronger than than you are alone he's going to beat you and then if I
[00:37:37] try and you know later even if it's an hour later I try and hit him well guess what he's
[00:37:42] bigger and stronger than you and he's bigger and stronger than me he's going to beat me we
[00:37:44] have to join together work together it's so obvious I know it's obvious and you know what you
[00:37:49] would think it'd be obvious to people on the battlefield and yet Napoleon himself felt the need
[00:37:54] to write that down as a maximum because people don't do it and and and and lay for
[00:37:58] an eye in in our book we have the the law of combat called cover move and that's what it is
[00:38:03] about mutual support it's about working together it's about teamwork and it's about not having
[00:38:08] silos in your organization where one person just is going to be on their own or one element on
[00:38:16] their own or other elements on their own or other elements on their own are you talking about
[00:38:19] like just structurally where that's how you kind of run the business or are you talking about where
[00:38:25] they don't communicate because I don't really like that guy it's both us oh and now what will
[00:38:29] structurally mean you have to have things structurally there will be separate elements structurally
[00:38:34] in the military the military there's you know there's artillery that's a separate element there's
[00:38:41] you know logistics that's a separate element you've got then you've got the the infantry
[00:38:47] companies and there'll be separate infantry companies but they're all separate but they have
[00:38:51] to work together they have to mutually support they have to communicate they fail to do that
[00:38:55] well in a business you've got the same thing you've got a sales branch you've got in
[00:38:58] operational branch you've got an administrative branch you've got a marketing branch and all those branches they have to work together too
[00:39:06] Yeah, so and
[00:39:08] on a personal level let's say
[00:39:10] you know, I don't like
[00:39:13] Jenny from HR
[00:39:15] So I can't stand Jenny from HR
[00:39:17] Yeah, so so we're not gonna we're not gonna talk to her. You know, we're just we don't need her
[00:39:22] You know, we're just gonna continue without her kind of kind of attitude
[00:39:25] Yes, that's a classic example if
[00:39:29] Anyone decides that for personal reasons or whatever they're not gonna work with someone else that's exactly what I'm talking about and it does happen in
[00:39:39] It happens so often in businesses. It's ridiculous and it happens in the military too
[00:39:44] It happens in sea will platoons. It happens in inter-services and
[00:39:48] And that's just a huge obstacle to overcome and like I said that's why
[00:39:51] Napoleon bone apart himself put it in his maximums
[00:39:58] Another one one battalion
[00:40:01] Sometimes decides the issue of the day
[00:40:06] So which battalion is that gonna be we don't know which element is gonna hit that critical situation
[00:40:14] This to me is bringing it back to you know being prepared and giving you know
[00:40:18] Making your teams strong all of them in balancing them because one battalion or one element or one team or maybe even one person can
[00:40:29] Decide the issue of the day so balance is very important
[00:40:39] I just couldn't help just going tactical with Napoleon on some of these I really couldn't it's just great stuff
[00:40:46] I understand
[00:40:48] It should be adopted as a principle never to allow intervals through which the enemy can penetrate between the different cores
[00:40:55] Fawning the forming the line of battle unless you have laid a snare
[00:41:00] Into which it is your object to draw him
[00:41:04] This is very simple for people that are in the military to understand and I just kind of talked about it if you and I are the good guys
[00:41:11] And we have guns just you and me and we allow a bad guy to get in between you and me and he has a gun
[00:41:19] Now what is that do you do you understand?
[00:41:23] What that does if I want to shoot the guy and I mess by a quarter of an inch who does it hit?
[00:41:28] Right potentially me it hits you. Yeah, it hits you because it's Murphy's law not even it potentially it will hit you
[00:41:34] It's Murphy's law so you want to always again the scores back to you know unity of command and
[00:41:40] Having your elements working together and not allowing other elements to penetrate in between
[00:41:47] Your forces interesting how he added unless it's to snare him like unless that's like that you're baiting them into a trap kind of thing
[00:41:56] That's interesting how he added that specifically like that's kind of a dope little thing to do yeah
[00:42:01] It is it I don't know if Napoleon would have said it was a dope little thing to do but
[00:42:07] But it kind of is though that's a thing and this is the next one same theme the camps of the same army should always be so placed as to be able to sustain each other
[00:42:21] Right you always have to be able to mutually support
[00:42:25] Mm-hmm mutually support as you would say that is important a
[00:42:43] Good general good officers commissioned and non-commissioned good organization
[00:42:49] Good instruction and strict discipline make good troops independently of the cause for which they are fighting
[00:43:01] Independently of the cause for which they're fighting a good general good officers commissioned and non-commissioned good
[00:43:08] Organization good instruction and strict discipline make good troops independent of the cause for which they're fighting
[00:43:14] So you can actually just have a
[00:43:20] Incredibly strong force that can operate at a high level
[00:43:27] Regardless of the cost that they're fighting for just because they have those things
[00:43:34] Yeah, like kind of what I told you before where if you you know you were
[00:43:38] Trained in discipline trained in all these things all the way down to just okay for example if you if you were trained in
[00:43:46] By whatever means you're trained to show up on time every single time
[00:43:50] Where you
[00:43:52] You know never be late. Yeah, to the point where being late could very well be the end of the world for you like train that hard and never being late
[00:44:02] That's gonna for a certain situation like you're in the military
[00:44:05] Right, so you can never be late in the military so now when you get out
[00:44:09] When you show up for work when you show up for drinks with your friend
[00:44:13] Chances aren't you're never gonna be late of course and that goes for you know the skills the discipline and everything else you're trained in
[00:44:20] Yeah
[00:44:24] The first quality and this is now we're just gonna get after it
[00:44:29] the first quality of a soldier is
[00:44:32] Constancy in enduring fatigue and hardship
[00:44:38] Courage is only the second
[00:44:45] So the first quality of a soldier is
[00:44:48] Constancy in enduring fatigue and hardship that is the this is Napoleon Bonaparte
[00:44:53] Saying that the most important thing the most important quality of a soldier is that they that they can endure
[00:44:59] fatigue and hardship
[00:45:03] Courage is only second poverty
[00:45:07] privation and want are the school of the good soldier
[00:45:13] So now when you look at any of the elite military training
[00:45:21] Schools that
[00:45:23] Those get that people could put through. Well, what is it about it's about poverty?
[00:45:28] Privation and want you know, it's about being hungry cold tired miserable. That's what they do
[00:45:35] You know, privation
[00:45:37] I look that word up actually a state in which
[00:45:41] Things that are essential for human well being are lacking
[00:45:46] And that's what they do and
[00:45:48] You know for me
[00:45:50] You know, I was talking about like you know, I don't sleep a lot awake up early. That's one of those things that it was pretty natural to me luckily
[00:45:57] There's some biological
[00:45:59] Genetic reason or whatever
[00:46:01] But that was very helpful to me very helpful for me to not have to sleep a lot
[00:46:07] Yeah
[00:46:08] And being able to suffer through that well
[00:46:12] was
[00:46:13] Was beneficial and
[00:46:15] You know, there's a lot of guys that have that that talent and people that don't have that talent have a rough time. Yeah as
[00:46:22] You know as warriors in real sense
[00:46:29] You should
[00:46:31] By all means encourage the soldiers to continue in the service
[00:46:36] This you can easily do by testifying greatest team for old soldiers
[00:46:41] They do that very well in the military. You know the older
[00:46:44] More experienced veteran soldiers get a lot of respect
[00:46:48] The pay should also be increased in proportion to the years in service
[00:46:52] There's a great injustice in having no higher pay to a veteran than to a crew. So that's
[00:46:59] That's good. Now when I read this this didn't particularly strike me as an important maximum to bring up
[00:47:06] But it reminded me of a story
[00:47:09] That always stuck with me and
[00:47:12] And so I was over in Ramadi and I was working with a with the battalion called the first of the 506 band of brothers
[00:47:22] Red curry just
[00:47:24] unbelievably awesome and our heroic
[00:47:29] Soldiers and I went over there for a meeting
[00:47:35] With the commander of the battalion and I
[00:47:38] I showed up to the meeting early of course. I was meeting him in his office, but and this guy was
[00:47:44] Was just an incredible leader and
[00:47:48] An incredible soldier and really an incredible man
[00:47:52] That I could not have any more respect for and
[00:47:58] You know, I'm not saying his name right now because I don't want to interrupt his privacy in his world
[00:48:03] You know, I don't know if he wants to have his name set on a podcast
[00:48:06] You know and we talk about him in the book and I don't put his name in there either and again
[00:48:10] This is out of respect for people's privacy and also out of
[00:48:15] You know security reasons you know he doesn't want to have the
[00:48:20] Insurgents and terrorists of the world knowing that he was this guy. So
[00:48:24] But I will tell you this the guy was just a fantastic leader and
[00:48:28] So I went to this meeting with him. There's just a one on one meeting. I forget what we were talking about
[00:48:32] But I showed up early and he's in there and I can hear him, you know, he's kind of talking to a soldier. I can't hear what he's saying
[00:48:37] And there's just a soldier and what's interesting about this is these the army seeing the seal teams when you go
[00:48:43] When you join a seal platoon for two years or whatever
[00:48:47] How however long it's gonna be you stay in that seal platoon
[00:48:50] You do a workup cycle and then you go out on deployment and
[00:48:54] and
[00:48:59] The army does a little bit differently the army you could be
[00:49:03] Three months into a year long deployment to Iraq and
[00:49:08] They will just
[00:49:09] They'll just leave they'll there'll be their time their time and the army is up and they'll go home or
[00:49:14] And then some new guy will show up and they'll be the middle deployment and that's how they do it
[00:49:18] The seal team doesn't really do that. You know, you kind of stick together for an entire straight six or seven month deployment
[00:49:23] So I showed up this meeting with the battalion commander and
[00:49:32] The soldier that was in before me walks out and
[00:49:36] The Colonel I sat down and said hey sir, are you doing good to see you? He's like hey good to see you frogman
[00:49:41] And he said you know that right there's a soldier's getting out of the army and I said oh
[00:49:47] It's interesting how you guys do that and he said yeah and he and I said you know, what do you say to these guys?
[00:49:55] When they're getting out of the army and there's a middle of a deployment and
[00:49:59] He looked at me and he said you know
[00:50:02] When I deal with a soldier
[00:50:04] Let's get out of the army. He said a lot of people will we'll say you can't leave us now
[00:50:10] You know you got to stick it out with us. You got to stay here. We need you
[00:50:15] And he said when I deal with a soldier that's getting out of the army
[00:50:22] I look at him and I shake their hands and I say thank you for your service and
[00:50:33] That to me was just awesome to to have a totally different attitude because the seal team is like that as well
[00:50:41] Someone's gonna get out of the seal teams. They're not gonna be on the middle of the deployment, but when you get back those. Oh, yeah, I'm getting out and everyone says all your equator
[00:50:47] above all, blah, blah, blah, and it's just a different attitude and what does that?
[00:50:51] What does it tell you about your community when you say hey?
[00:50:54] You know what I'm gonna get move on. I'm gonna take care of my family. I got to you know
[00:50:57] I got whatever going on in my life and I'm gonna get out of the seal teams and people are like oh your equator
[00:51:03] And that's normal. They do that in every branch. Not just the seal teams and here was this guy in his attitude was
[00:51:08] He's gonna say thank you for your service. He appreciate everything you've done and I wish you best luck
[00:51:14] That guy is more willing to change his mind because he's like wow I'm working for an incredible leader
[00:51:20] The army's awesome right and that that story always stuck with me. He about about how to treat people
[00:51:28] About how to treat people. This is a guy that put his life on the line for
[00:51:33] Months on end and only did we just say thank you for your service. Yeah, that's a leader right there
[00:51:45] Next one
[00:51:47] It is not by herangs at the moment of engaging
[00:51:54] Soldiers are rendered brave
[00:51:56] Veterans hardly listen to them and recruits forget them at the first discharge of a cannon
[00:52:02] If speeches and arguments aren't anytime useful
[00:52:06] It is during the course of the campaign by counteracting false reports and
[00:52:11] Causes of discontent maintaining proper spirit in the camp and furnishing subjects of
[00:52:18] Conversations in Bivilax
[00:52:20] These several objects be maybe attained by the printed orders of the day and so this is again as a leader in a leadership position
[00:52:30] this
[00:52:33] He's basically saying look at the moment of combat all year young and screaming and trying to motivate people is too late
[00:52:40] The veterans like the veterans aren't gonna listen to you and their crutes that once the cannon goes off
[00:52:44] They're not here and you either so your main focus needs to be
[00:52:47] You know during the the non-fire fight scenarios that's when you get people with the mindset that's gonna drive them through these bad situations
[00:52:56] If you're trying to do this trying to encourage people during the during the firefight you're late
[00:53:09] Theme of the night nothing is more important in war than unity in command
[00:53:16] When therefore you are carrying on hostilities against a single power only you should have but one army acting on one line and led by one commander
[00:53:32] Does that even need
[00:53:35] Explanation not really
[00:53:39] Unity of command
[00:53:41] There are certain things in war of which the commander alone comprehends the importance
[00:53:49] Nothing but his superior firmness and ability can subdue and surround all difficulties
[00:53:56] This is the burden of command. This is recognizing when you're in a command position and when you're in a leadership position
[00:54:01] There are some things that are years alone and you have to drive from the top and I talk all the time about leadership being
[00:54:11] At every level and and how the lowest ranking guy is a leader and the person above him is leader all the way through the whole chain of command
[00:54:18] But this statement which I agree with as much as I know that leadership throughout the chain of command is
[00:54:26] infinitely
[00:54:28] important
[00:54:29] It is important as a leader to understand that there's some things that you and you alone are gonna understand and it's your responsibility
[00:54:37] to ensure that that peace of the battle is handled correctly
[00:54:51] This one's a little bit long. I'm gonna read it anyways
[00:54:55] To authorize generals and officers to lay down their arms by virtue of a special capitulation under any
[00:55:03] Other circumstances than when they constitute the garrison of a fortified place would
[00:55:09] Unquestionably be attended with dangerous consequences to open this door to cowards
[00:55:15] To men wanting an energy or even misguided brave men is to destroy the military spirit of a nation
[00:55:26] From Napoleon
[00:55:28] There can be no surrender
[00:55:32] An extraordinary situation requires extraordinary resolution
[00:55:36] Hmm note taken underlined in red and extraordinary situation requires extraordinary
[00:55:46] Resolution
[00:55:50] How many things apparently impossible have never the less been performed by resolute men who had no alternative
[00:55:58] but death
[00:56:02] Strong words very strong words
[00:56:04] And
[00:56:06] We could go throughout military history and find case upon case where I would tell you yes absolutely that commander made a
[00:56:15] wise decision to surrender and you know that's there are situations where that happens
[00:56:22] But I think the main point of this is that to have that out there
[00:56:28] To have that as a thing right right is not smart is not smart and you know
[00:56:36] Going in with MMA fighters and telling them like listen if you get caught in a submission don't tap
[00:56:43] Let it break
[00:56:45] If you get put to choke go to sleep just
[00:56:49] There's no submission you are not tapping
[00:56:51] Now I've said that to guys and I've had some guys get out of some crazy
[00:56:58] Submissions that they should adapt and maybe they got a little bit injured, but they got out and I'm also had guys get caught in like some devastating
[00:57:05] Submissions and then like oh, you know what okay, I'm gonna tap because
[00:57:10] But the fact that that attitude wasn't out there right okay, and that like like okay
[00:57:15] You know what if you get caught you know what just tap I mean you're not gonna say to a fighter
[00:57:19] Okay, look if you caught in a bad arm lock, you know just tap no no you can't have a bad arm lock
[00:57:25] Get out of it yeah in competition let it break
[00:57:28] Like an MMA fight yeah, I mean obviously not yeah, yeah, yeah, okay. Oh, yeah, I'm training. Sorry folks
[00:57:34] If you're in training tap early and tap the office
[00:57:38] Yeah, okay, so when you say having that be a thing that's out there meaning there's almost not I don't want to see it a shame
[00:57:45] But almost like etiquette is to not surrender. That's etiquette and it's so much an etiquette where it's here
[00:57:52] You don't surrender here. It's written planning which don't surrender right right
[00:57:56] It's not even etiquette. There's a better word for it
[00:57:58] There's a word I don't know what it is, but it's not etiquette. It's it's our
[00:58:04] ethos right that's what it is. It's our ethos is do not surrender right?
[00:58:09] So when someone does surrender when it's a good move
[00:58:12] How you say like everyone's in all there is it's like man
[00:58:17] There was literally no other option that could be conceived. Yeah, but to not have it out there
[00:58:22] You know that that commander took it to the end degree and
[00:58:25] Said you know what all of my man are gonna die for no reason now if I continue on with this so therefore
[00:58:32] We are going to surrender and hopefully we'll come back to fight another day. Yeah, otherwise. Yeah, it's
[00:58:37] If you know if I don't know someone even has this much mental weakness
[00:58:43] Going in he could get and that could kick in at a whole another time
[00:58:48] Yes, and now he's under this certain kind of mindset that man
[00:58:52] I could look for the easiest way out right here. Yeah, yeah, not real tired or man my shoulder got hurt on that last one
[00:58:59] So maybe I'll just you know, but if he's in that mindset that
[00:59:02] Don't give up. You just can't surrender. He won't even consider that that won't even enter his mind
[00:59:08] That's what I'm talking about that's exactly what I'm talking about
[00:59:13] Such conduct such conduct ought to be prescribed pronounced infamous and punishable with death
[00:59:21] The generals officers and soldiers who in battle have saved their lives by capitulating ought to be decimated
[00:59:27] He commands the arms to be surrendered and those who obey him are a like traders and deserve capital punishment
[00:59:36] So they say if you give up you just give up
[00:59:39] That's exactly what they're saying
[00:59:42] That's exactly what they're saying
[00:59:47] Now we're going to get in a little bit of something that we now refer to as extreme ownership
[00:59:53] a
[00:59:56] General in chief cannot exonerate himself from responsibility for for his faults by pleading and order of his sovereign or the minister
[01:00:05] When the individual from whom it proceeds is at a distance from the field of operations and
[01:00:11] But partially or not at all acquainted with the actual conditions of things
[01:00:17] So you if I tell you to do something and it doesn't go well for you
[01:00:21] It you're out in the field and I told you hey charge this machine gun nest and you do it and everyone dies
[01:00:27] And you come back and say hey it wasn't my fault of a joc was fault
[01:00:31] The point is here no doesn't work that way does not work that way
[01:00:41] hence
[01:00:44] It follows that every general and treat chief who undertakes to execute a plan
[01:00:49] Which he knows to be bad is culpable
[01:00:53] So if I tell you to go attack that machine gun nest and you know it's a bad plan and you executed anyways your fault
[01:01:00] That's kind of like I mean that whole idea is
[01:01:05] You take responsibility for your direct actions, right? So it's kind of like if you do the opposite of that it's like okay
[01:01:13] I you know I was speeding I got caught right I got speeding I got to take it is that my fault
[01:01:19] Because yes, it's my fault, but in a way if I don't want to exercise this concept in a way
[01:01:24] It's my parents fault for having me
[01:01:26] Or maybe not teaching me the value of following traffic. I'm not gone to have this discussion with you
[01:01:33] That's just completely ridiculous. It's the same thing. You can blame your parents for your speeding echo Charles
[01:01:40] That's what I'm saying. I'll let you do that. That's the point. That's the point of making it that's the end of point here is that
[01:01:46] If you're doing something this is even more of an extreme point. This is if your parents tell you to speed
[01:01:52] And you go out and get caught speeding and pulled over you go hey my parents somebody's right even more direct
[01:01:57] Yeah, that's what I'm saying is you knew it was wrong
[01:01:59] You knew you shouldn't be doing it and what Napoleon is saying is it's your fault you're culpable
[01:02:05] period
[01:02:07] period
[01:02:08] with you let's say
[01:02:11] period you knew it was wrong
[01:02:13] So it would a better plan of action be expressed that you know that the mission or whatever is wrong
[01:02:19] Yeah, you should be like hey, I'm not doing this. Oh, and fact he goes on
[01:02:22] He should communicate his reasons insist on a change of plan and finally resign his commission
[01:02:29] Rather than become the instrument of the of his army's ruin
[01:02:33] This is just the this is the most probably the most powerful thing we're gonna talk about tonight
[01:02:37] I'm gonna read it again a general and chief cannot exonerate himself from responsibility for his faults by pleading an order of his sovereign of the minister
[01:02:45] When the individual from whom it proceeds is at a distance from the field of operations and
[01:02:50] But partially or not at all acquainted with the actual condition of things
[01:02:54] So this is an order that's coming on from high from somebody that doesn't know
[01:02:58] hence it follows
[01:03:00] That every general and chief who undertakes to execute a plan which he knows to be bad is culpable
[01:03:09] He should communicate his reasons insist on a change of plan and finally
[01:03:16] resign his commission so quit his job rather than become an instrument of his army's ruin
[01:03:23] Every general and chief who in consequence of orders from his superiors gives battle with the certainty of defeat is equally culpable
[01:03:36] This is ownership
[01:03:38] This is hey, I got told to do something. I don't agree with it. Hey boss
[01:03:42] You got to listen to me here. This is not the way we need to execute this here's a better plan here's another plan here's a here's an alternative
[01:03:49] because if you
[01:03:51] Give battle with the certainty of defeat your culpable
[01:03:55] regardless of who told you to do what individual responsibility and this is
[01:04:00] especially important to have this concept coming from somebody that was as
[01:04:06] Egotistical and
[01:04:08] Expected so much discipline from his troops that to have Napoleon himself
[01:04:13] Saying this like if it's a bad order you shouldn't do it. This is Napoleon saying this, right?
[01:04:20] So that's how important it is to have this
[01:04:24] This culture in your organization to make sure that everybody knows regardless of what you get told you've got to do the right thing
[01:04:32] And it's everyone's individual responsibility to take extreme ownership of everything that's happening and
[01:04:39] And not just like you know what I'm gonna point my point my finger up the chain of command
[01:04:43] Blame them when something goes wrong. I've talked about this before you know
[01:04:48] Many times I blame my bosses for things that went wrong zero
[01:04:51] Never blame my bosses. How could it ever be their fault? I was in charge
[01:04:55] And if they told me to do something that was stupid I would tell them look. I'm not doing that. Here's why. Let's find a better way
[01:05:13] The first qualification of a general and chief is to possess a cool head
[01:05:19] So that things may appear to him in their true proportions and as they really are
[01:05:30] It's beautiful. It's a beautiful statement possess a cool head
[01:05:34] So that things may appear to him in their true proportions and as they really are
[01:05:41] He should not suffer himself to be unduly affected by good or bad news the
[01:05:49] Impressions which are made upon his mind
[01:05:52] Successively or simultaneously in the course of a day should be so classified in his memory that each shall occupy its proper place
[01:06:01] For sound reasoning and judgment result from first examining each of these varied impressions by itself and then comparing them
[01:06:09] All with one another
[01:06:12] So you're gonna hear all these things
[01:06:15] All these different impressions you're gonna get rumors
[01:06:20] gossip
[01:06:22] Reports probably heard this the first report in war is always wrong. You can hear all that stuff and you got to you got to detach from it
[01:06:29] You can't get emotional you got to categorize them and then once you hear them all you can look at them and
[01:06:35] assess them all in their own light
[01:06:37] There are reason there there are some men who
[01:06:41] From their physical and moral constitution deck everything in the colors of imagination
[01:06:49] With whatever knowledge talents courage or other good qualities these may be endowed
[01:06:55] Nature has not fitted them for the command of armies and the direction of the great
[01:07:01] Operations of war so anybody that gets emotional that that here's something and let's it cloud their decisions that gets too close to problems
[01:07:10] They're not cut out to lead in war and I have one hundred percent agree with that and they're not cut out to lead in any situation
[01:07:17] Hmm
[01:07:27] To be familiar with the geography and topography of the country to be skillful in making reconnaissance to be
[01:07:34] Attentive to the dispatch of orders
[01:07:38] To be capable of exhibiting with simplicity the most complicated movements of an army
[01:07:44] These are qualifications that should distinguish the officer called to the station of chief of staff
[01:07:52] And my favorite of those is to be capable of exhibiting with simplicity the most complicated movements of the army
[01:08:00] I talk about all this all the time. It's a one of our laws of combat
[01:08:06] It's a chapter and extreme ownership that we wrote about in simplicity and
[01:08:10] A lot of times we talk about giving clear concise orders simple clear concise orders
[01:08:17] So that's that's another mark of
[01:08:19] Someone that can lead well is someone that can take complex ideas
[01:08:24] simplify them and
[01:08:26] Communicate them in a simple manner
[01:08:29] Is that like you know how in jujitsu you'll you'll like people name moves? Yes, I'll do like some give moves name
[01:08:36] But each move will have like you know four five six ten parts to that move details that are important to make them move
[01:08:42] You name it one move you learn that home move
[01:08:45] So it takes these complex
[01:08:50] Orders or moves and simplifies it. Yes, especially when you're communicating
[01:08:53] You know do this
[01:08:55] And there there are I mean there definitely are coaches that can take complex moves and break them down very simply and
[01:09:03] And
[01:09:05] That is that is what makes are good instructor right that is what makes a good instructor someone that can explain to you exactly
[01:09:11] What you do with your weight exactly where you put your forearm exactly and then and then
[01:09:18] Explain to you that you know what this might be a little bit different from you for you because you're a different human
[01:09:22] But here's exactly what I do and here's the effect that I'm looking for when I do it
[01:09:27] Very simple
[01:09:29] That's what we're looking for
[01:09:31] The first principle of a general and chief is to calculate what he must do
[01:09:36] To see if he has all the means to surround the obstacles with which the enemy can oppose him and when he has made his decision to do everything to overcome them
[01:09:46] Again, that's to me is about
[01:09:48] commitment
[01:09:50] next
[01:09:52] War is composed of nothing but accidents
[01:09:54] and
[01:10:00] Although holding to general principles a general should never lose sight of everything to enable him to profit from these accidents
[01:10:04] That is the mark of a genius
[01:10:07] in war
[01:10:08] There is but one favorable moment the great art is to seize it
[01:10:14] Business
[01:10:16] Obviously
[01:10:17] Gjitsu obviously fighting obviously these that's just there's there's moments
[01:10:23] There's opportunity
[01:10:26] There's opportunity
[01:10:29] and when you when you have that opportunity the art is to seize it
[01:10:36] Very simply
[01:10:37] Defensive war does not exclude attacking just as offensive war does not exclude defending
[01:10:43] Although its aim may be to force the frontier and invade the enemy's country
[01:10:53] I just think it's important to not only think about hey you should be attacking and defending at the same time and
[01:11:00] Defending and attacking at the same time but also we gotta remember the the
[01:11:04] contradiction in the fact that he's a guy that talks about offense offense offense but even he has to balance that with defense
[01:11:13] Even Napoleon has to balance things and we'll do the last one
[01:11:26] A doubtful general who acts without principles and without plan even though he lead
[01:11:32] Even though he lead an army numerically superior to that of the enemy almost always finds himself inferior to the latter on the field of battle
[01:11:43] Fumblings
[01:11:45] The middle course
[01:11:48] Lose all in war
[01:11:53] And I just like the fact that he's talking about
[01:11:56] Principled leadership and I would say that principle leadership
[01:12:03] Not just in a leadership position, but as a person what are your principles as a person and if you have principles as a human and you stand by those principles
[01:12:18] You're gonna be successful
[01:12:20] You're gonna win whereas if you take the middle course and you
[01:12:26] Wave or you don't just don't have principles on which to stand
[01:12:32] Then you fall apart and
[01:12:36] I think that everybody should look to define what their principles are yeah actually define them
[01:12:44] I can tell you that I would love to tell you that when I was
[01:12:47] You know 19 years old I sat down and wrote down
[01:12:51] Jocquos principles of life. I didn't do that. I wish I would have
[01:12:56] And I can tell you that as I grew up in the Seal teams there I
[01:13:01] Probably added principles and I had some bad ones and I had some good ones
[01:13:07] And I think that
[01:13:09] Those those principles though when you get to a point where you know that your principles are solid and honestly to me
[01:13:16] The best or the the the the biggest thing I've done to define the principles
[01:13:24] That I live by is really the book that life and I wrote extreme ownership that's the that was the culmination of
[01:13:31] 20 years in the Seal teams and
[01:13:34] Putting together the principles that that that I live by and
[01:13:38] The survival by so I think it's just very important to think about what your principles are as a person
[01:13:47] What you're trying to achieve and have those principles like a guiding strategy underneath everything that you're doing
[01:13:54] And that's one thing that's good about these podcasts
[01:13:57] is that
[01:13:59] You know, I'm I've been lucky enough to capture some of these you know like the letters that we read last time these counseling letters
[01:14:06] I'm talking about my personal principles in those those were my principles on how to lead
[01:14:13] And so I think it's important to
[01:14:16] Come up with those principles and define them and let those principles reflect
[01:14:21] You know who you are as a person and what you want to be
[01:14:25] And I wish that I would have been told to do that
[01:14:29] When I was 13 years old
[01:14:33] Because I think it is that important
[01:14:35] And as a person
[01:14:38] Yeah, and it
[01:14:40] It seems like anyway that
[01:14:43] Defining your principles it seems like that's a
[01:14:47] That's kind of an ongoing process yes because
[01:14:50] It's one of the things where you think you have your principles, you know, but I don't know for example
[01:14:57] You could have just heard it on some speech that really resonated with you so you're dang you think you have
[01:15:02] Printing these specific principles now, but you haven't really defined them you just kind of liked how that sounded and you maybe thought of one two three
[01:15:10] situations where they're not applies to me and let me tell you what you're talking about right now your number one principle
[01:15:16] should be
[01:15:17] for your mind
[01:15:18] and and have humility
[01:15:20] to never say the principles that I'm standing upon are never going to change because I know everything right now and we've talked about this before yes. I know
[01:15:29] I
[01:15:31] If I look at myself
[01:15:33] 10 years ago, I know nothing compared to what I know now. Yeah, if I look to myself 20 years ago, I know even less I'm just a lost
[01:15:40] Animal out in the woods
[01:15:43] So you have to you know build these principles and like you said
[01:15:48] And I think there's a difference between
[01:15:50] Being a flip flop or like you know your hip politicians get you know, oh your flip flop or because you said you don't support kind of troll and now you and now you
[01:15:58] You do you do support it now you don't support or whatever or you do support
[01:16:02] Bring it in refugees or not so and people get to call the flip flop or and and I actually
[01:16:08] I think there's some core principles that shouldn't change even for a politician and even for a person but there's a lot of peripheral
[01:16:17] You know, I think there's peripheral principles that do evolve and do change and you do end up with different priorities in your life and I think that's
[01:16:24] Okay, you know there was a large portion of my life
[01:16:29] Where the seal teams was absolutely the most important thing and nothing else was even a close second
[01:16:37] Including things like my personal health including things like my own family
[01:16:44] Including things like my future the everything was just completely
[01:16:49] Unimportant compared to the seal teams and while that makes for a fired-up seal and I wouldn't trade that
[01:16:59] I wouldn't even want to change that principle. I mean that that's what I needed at the time to do a good job
[01:17:05] But you know at a some point I had to say okay, I
[01:17:09] I need to think about something else. You know there I need to evolve as a human and
[01:17:14] Yeah, and and you know little things like I need to take care of my family. You know, I need to actually pay attention to them and not just pay attention to my
[01:17:22] Seal-patoon or my seal task unit or the guys don't work with so you so I think it's okay to
[01:17:28] evolve your principles
[01:17:30] But I think more important
[01:17:32] Is that you need to define your principles and where you are and that also is a way
[01:17:37] to
[01:17:39] Check your growth and see what course you're on
[01:17:42] Yeah, you know, this is one thing that I talk about
[01:17:45] When I was in the seal teams, I used to talk about this
[01:17:49] The most important piece of information on the battlefield
[01:17:53] What do you think the most important piece of information on the battlefield to Zekko?
[01:17:59] Echo has no idea. I can come up with an idea, but it'll take a little bit. Yeah, so I used to ask that question to
[01:18:05] Everybody to senior guys junior guys and they'd all kinds of you know where you know where the bad guys are
[01:18:10] What you know where the target is. I mean that everyone would have different answers
[01:18:16] And there's actually only one answer the most important piece of information that you can have on the battlefield is where you are
[01:18:24] It's to know where you are on the battlefield
[01:18:27] Do you know where you're at?
[01:18:29] If you don't know where you're at
[01:18:31] Does it really matter if you know where the enemy is? No because you don't even know where you are
[01:18:35] If you if you don't know where you're at
[01:18:37] Can you even navigate correctly? No because you don't even know where you are
[01:18:42] If you don't know where you're at can you get closer?
[01:18:45] Support can you call for
[01:18:47] Aircraft to come in and drop bombs? No you don't even know where you are
[01:18:51] So that piece of data when will you when you apply that to life
[01:18:56] How do you know where you are if you're not tracking what your principles are?
[01:19:01] Right dancers you're not you're not gonna if you're not gonna know where you are and you're not gonna see how you evolve and when I work with businesses
[01:19:07] I use the same principles
[01:19:09] Businesses will go out and operate off of instinct
[01:19:13] Now you have to trust your instinct and you have to understand it, but you all have to track what the facts are
[01:19:18] You know I'd say like where you're metrics how do you know what you did
[01:19:23] Last year this time in
[01:19:25] Profitability how do you know what you did in sales
[01:19:27] You how do you know what you did in product development if you're not tracking it you don't know where you are on the battlefield
[01:19:35] And if you don't know where you are on the battlefield you're lost so the your principles
[01:19:42] Kind of just continue to be more and more informed you know like you thought about when you're 13 or 16 however old
[01:19:48] Where you think you have these principles because I don't know you listen to Henry or Allen
[01:19:52] But as you
[01:19:54] Conduct yourself through life within open mind and all these you you're offered all these different perspectives that start to solidify your principles
[01:20:02] so
[01:20:04] Talk about the difference between a flip flopper and then and someone who's who simply open minded right and evolves yeah the differences that
[01:20:13] Someone who continuously evolves will have an open mind at the same time have pretty concrete principles
[01:20:19] Yes, so when they're offered something significant
[01:20:21] That is simply a difference in perspective that is gonna that's gonna essentially on an in a fundamental way
[01:20:28] Align with their principles if their principles are fairness and you know these these things that are in our
[01:20:33] Eugually good as far as being part of your principles
[01:20:36] They're gonna evolve when these
[01:20:40] Separate perspectives get presented to them and
[01:20:42] And thus solidifying their principles even more yes and echo just use the word thus and I like that
[01:20:53] I like that no, true, and I think that's uh like this is good
[01:20:58] Good thing to keep in mind as you know people move forward is what are your principles
[01:21:05] How are they evolving how are they improving have they gotten better?
[01:21:10] Right those are great questions for every individual asked those are questions I'm asking myself right now on the jocco podcast live
[01:21:18] It's happening
[01:21:20] So speaking of which
[01:21:22] We got some questions speaking of questions speaking questions the first question in episode five you mentioned
[01:21:29] Treating people with a blank slate
[01:21:34] How do you deal with Miss judging a person?
[01:21:36] In the event of you Miss judging yeah, so that was you know in reference to a person that that we went through a counseling sheet on and
[01:21:46] the
[01:21:49] Fact was that I'd heard some bad stuff about them, you know bad hit a bad reputation
[01:21:55] etc and so I was saying that hey, you know, I I treat everyone like a blank slate
[01:22:01] and
[01:22:03] So first of all I talked about this before is I set low expectations for people
[01:22:08] I don't have a super high
[01:22:11] Expectations of
[01:22:13] What they're gonna do and how well they're gonna deliver and actually somebody hit me on Twitter today and said something along the lines of
[01:22:19] I like the fact that everyone with you starts at zero
[01:22:23] And I'm and he said I'm the same way he's saying he was the same way and I think that's a it's a pretty good attitude to have like everyone starts at zero
[01:22:31] Right and that's a better way to put it in my opinion
[01:22:34] Yeah, okay, okay, you have a zero and and again, I don't mean to sound like a negative person, but
[01:22:40] I just don't set high expectations. I set it. I'm a zero right and look you show me who you are
[01:22:45] I'm not gonna
[01:22:46] predict one way or the other
[01:22:48] I understand that people do crazy things
[01:22:52] and and people are crazy in many ways
[01:22:55] They're ego their personality their issues mean people
[01:23:02] Their emotions
[01:23:04] People do crazy things so I don't that's another thing that keeps me from
[01:23:09] Giving people all kinds of credit out of the gate
[01:23:12] And and I do
[01:23:14] way what other people say
[01:23:16] You know, I take it into account, but I definitely
[01:23:19] Am careful to use my own judgment and not cloud my vision with what somebody else said about so and so
[01:23:25] So
[01:23:27] You know, how do I deal with misjudging a person? It's kind of what we were just talking about. I don't
[01:23:33] Set permanent judgment on someone and
[01:23:36] Say echoes bat and I don't like him and I don't trust him
[01:23:42] That's not a permanent thing. You know, I I'm gonna build from zero and I'm gonna say oh, you know what actually hey
[01:23:49] He did a good job with that or hey he had my back on that so I'm not
[01:23:53] Stuck in my ways and I don't
[01:23:56] I don't hold grudges against people and say this person's never gonna change that being said
[01:24:02] Man, it's hard to change the spots of the leopard, you know people are who they are and it's a very difficult
[01:24:08] Yes, sir some people can grow and change and evolve and that's great
[01:24:12] But a lot of people they are who they are and so you have to take that into account as well
[01:24:16] Right, yeah when you say like trusting someone once let's say someone burns you and whatever way and then you know a week later
[01:24:24] Whatever
[01:24:25] They had your back in a way that was really unexpected compared to you know that action that they did
[01:24:29] So basically what that does is help paint and overall picture of what kind of person this is to you
[01:24:34] So where it's like okay, maybe I can trust him in this type of situation
[01:24:37] Yeah, when they use benefits and in in
[01:24:39] Detriments or in play and these other situations I can't so it's kind of this and then as you have more and more experience with people
[01:24:46] They paint more of a picture. Yeah, so trust even saying trust that's such a broad brush
[01:24:51] You know certain incentives are involved involved you can't trust a certain person to do or not do certain things
[01:24:58] But yeah offer up different incentives and you know you can trust them
[01:25:01] Yeah, and so I think the same thing that you're just saying is what I'm saying is I don't I'm not gonna miss
[01:25:06] Judge someone because my judgment is not a permanent all
[01:25:09] All powerful statement of one time. Yeah, I'm constantly looking at people and like you said learning impressions of their whole
[01:25:19] Their whole entity. Yeah, what they're all about
[01:25:24] Next
[01:25:26] So starting out in jujitsu
[01:25:30] How do you find a good gym in your area?
[01:25:32] Yeah, okay, so this is actually a question, you know, we plucked one out of many of people that have hit us up on
[01:25:42] Twitter about where to find a good
[01:25:45] Presilling jujitsu gym because people I think people have heard
[01:25:50] us talking about jujitsu and they heard me talking about it with Joe Rogan
[01:25:54] You know, her retoken about with Tim Ferriss. I mean something that I talk about something that is definitely a big part of my life
[01:25:59] I know it's a big part of your life as well and so people think you know I'd like to check that out and I think that's awesome
[01:26:05] And if you're out there and you're gonna ask me if you should start jujitsu
[01:26:10] And you're gonna give me a whole bunch of quantifiers that you're old or you work a lot or you
[01:26:16] You've been sick or you've been injured or whatever you're gonna tell me and I can tell you 99.99
[01:26:21] 99.9% of the time my answer is gonna be yes you should start jujitsu except if your sickness is contagious
[01:26:27] Except if your sickness is contagious or if you're a bully or you're a sadist
[01:26:33] You're an evil person that's hungry for a power. I'm gonna tell you don't
[01:26:38] Start jujitsu because you're gonna use it for bad things
[01:26:43] Yeah, and even before that I think you might get it
[01:26:47] Turned on you
[01:26:49] You know how like because it's really easy to depends on the school, but
[01:26:52] For the most part it's really easy to spot a bully when it comes to the gym and it's you and it doesn't fare well
[01:26:59] It doesn't fare well. It'll maybe fare well for a day or even maybe one five-minute match or something like that
[01:27:05] That meant it doesn't yeah jujitsu is a self-regulating
[01:27:09] Yeah, for the most part. Yes self-regulating seeing very few people
[01:27:14] Can maintain and and most people with bully bullying attitudes don't have the humility to continue in jujitsu for a long time
[01:27:21] Anyways, yes, so that's another way that itself pleases so how do you find a good
[01:27:28] jujitsu gym
[01:27:30] Obviously you start with Google you find out some locations to me proximity is very important
[01:27:35] So you want a place that's you know on your way to work on your way home from more close to your house
[01:27:39] So it's somewhere that you're gonna get in there and train because you don't want to sign up for a gym
[01:27:44] And never go because it's too far too out of the way so proximity is definitely a factor
[01:27:48] Then you're gonna ask yourself what are you looking for because jujitsu gyms very tremendously in how they're set up how they're run and
[01:27:58] All those things. I mean there's really super traditional
[01:28:03] Brazilian jujitsu gyms where they you you bow before you get on the mat you bow after you you bow to the instructor
[01:28:10] When you're gonna talk to him you are very they're very strict with uniforms
[01:28:14] That you know only a white uniform you have to have this certain patch on your uniform to represent the school that's that's one type of
[01:28:25] Appness fear that you could have then you could have a very loose atmosphere where it's like you know
[01:28:29] You're gonna come in you're gonna train there is no bowing there's there's handshakes and there's respect
[01:28:34] But it's not as overt and not as
[01:28:38] Imposed as it would be in a more traditional Brazilian jujitsu school. So what are you looking for you know for me?
[01:28:43] I always you know and and if you come to my gym it's a very it's a very relaxed atmosphere in terms of
[01:28:50] Traditionally imposed discipline
[01:28:53] But when you roll there will be discipline imposed
[01:28:58] It's pretty dynamic though like we have such a big group of people that
[01:29:04] To go in there and and to get a non-competitive roll is you can easily do that
[01:29:10] Yeah, that's sure in fact you you it's easy to choose it's easy to be like okay
[01:29:15] I know let's roll with this group and it's gonna it's gonna I'm gonna go over here with this crew today and they're gonna bring it or
[01:29:21] You know what I'm gonna chill with these guys over here and we're gonna work on some technique and maybe I can ask this guy about that
[01:29:25] Yeah, so that's that's good that is good
[01:29:29] You know there's also a are you gonna go to a school that's very focused on sport jujitsu
[01:29:34] which is hey we're gonna compete we're gonna learn
[01:29:37] The techniques that are very applicable to
[01:29:42] to competing in jujitsu yeah
[01:29:45] Or am I gonna do something that's more towards self defense or and or MMA and a classic example
[01:29:52] I think of that as the is the 50 50 guard
[01:29:57] Where in this position in jujitsu if you don't know jujitsu where if you're in a no rule situation
[01:30:03] You're very vulnerable to a devastating submission called a heel hook and so it's
[01:30:11] But there's there's certain competition rules that don't allow for heel hooks in that position
[01:30:16] So depending on what's kind of school you're at one of them you're gonna get you're gonna be in a in a different situation
[01:30:22] In that in that one position and and you know actually at our school we do we do both
[01:30:28] But do you want to do MMA focus?
[01:30:30] Do you want to do ghee or no ghee and again there's benefits to both those and they're both fun and
[01:30:36] I like training both
[01:30:38] So you kind of kind of think about what you're looking for and then and then bring that into the school and and then go try some classes
[01:30:46] You know take some classes at a school and see what they're like
[01:30:49] What are the other students like you know what kind of atmosphere is it?
[01:30:55] Do they have like the similar goals if you want to compete if that's your goal
[01:30:59] Then
[01:31:00] Are the other people that you talk to or they like yeah, I compete all the time
[01:31:04] There's a tournament coming up or they like yeah, you know we can be sometimes or actually I don't care about competing because there's plenty of people that
[01:31:09] Change the Jitsu they don't care about competing is there
[01:31:13] You know what's the attitude what's is their egos?
[01:31:17] Our people roll if you try to kill you which which 99% of the time in a Jitsu school is not gonna happen
[01:31:22] But it can happen it can happen so what and then and then it's like what was the instructor like is the instructor personal?
[01:31:29] Is it is the instructor you know what we're talking about earlier is he clear as he concise is he understand?
[01:31:35] Can you understand him can you understand the way he's explaining moves now?
[01:31:39] There's a you got to give a little leeway there if you jump into a class that's an advanced class
[01:31:44] You're not gonna understand everything you know and people ask me on how to get started on Jitsu and I tell him go immersion training
[01:31:50] Just like a language just get in there and start training and you're gonna get
[01:31:54] Destroyed at first and then you're gonna slowly learn and the next thing
[01:31:58] You know that's a fastest way to learn languages to get immersed in it and do the same thing with Jitsu
[01:32:03] Is the instructor
[01:32:05] Having fun. Is the guy having fun or the girl are they having fun?
[01:32:11] Teaching is it a fun thing because you want you Jitsu to be fun and
[01:32:15] You want the instructor to be having fun because if the instructor's not having fun, well
[01:32:18] Then what you know what are they gonna be like in six months if they're not having fun today
[01:32:23] Then what are they gonna be like in six months? So that's that's another important piece yeah
[01:32:29] When you talk about what what you're looking for you know in Jitsu
[01:32:36] And in my experience
[01:32:38] There's so many elements of it to look for like if you know when you if you say okay
[01:32:43] Am I do I want to learn MMA learning MMA or fighting is the sport of fighting compared to like for example the
[01:32:51] Gracie Academy torrents
[01:32:53] Their Jitsu self defense in regards to fighting getting into a fight or someone attacks you and a fight
[01:32:59] That's way different than training in MMA
[01:33:02] Training MMA is the sport of MMA. You're gonna learn a lot of moves. You're not probably not gonna learn
[01:33:07] Things that a quote unquote an attacker. I mean you you'll you will but it's not focused on that
[01:33:12] You're not gonna learn stuff that an attacker is gonna do to you
[01:33:15] So even that differentiation is just the fighting part alone. Yes, not to mention the competition part
[01:33:21] The ghee the no ghee the you know all these dynamic moves like if you go tenth planet tenth planet convert to like
[01:33:27] Crazy Academy torrents or almost like two different sports almost yeah and they are but at the same time
[01:33:34] You're gonna get
[01:33:35] You're gonna get you Jitsu that that's it and you're gonna get you Jitsu and
[01:33:41] That's the important thing
[01:33:43] Is the GJ2 and just like we talked about the evolution of your principles let your
[01:33:48] You know your game should evolve as well and almost everybody that's never done GJitsu before
[01:33:53] If you said well, why do you want to take GJ2? 90% of them are gonna say oh self defense
[01:33:58] Right and so because you know people say I want to learn to defend myself
[01:34:01] There's not too many people that are gonna be saying you know what I really have become interested in this
[01:34:05] Rebrow aspect of GJ2 which maybe some people that listen to us talk about it or listen to Joe Rogan talk about it
[01:34:12] You know they'll say oh that guy's talking about this thing as if it's a very cerebral experience
[01:34:17] So maybe someone but but most people yeah, I want to learn another fun myself
[01:34:21] I'll phone to make sure you're so
[01:34:23] But you're gonna evolve past that because after six months of training you can handle yourself in the street regardless of you went to tenth planet
[01:34:29] You went to the grace of you can you're gonna be able to handle yourself in the street and so then it becomes an obsession of
[01:34:36] How did that move happen?
[01:34:38] So that's what you got to that's what you got to be ready to evolve and when you're at that point if you go to you know
[01:34:45] school A versus if you went to school B
[01:34:49] Your experience is gonna be a lot different and it's gonna depend on what you're looking for in the beginning
[01:34:55] But nonetheless, yeah, if it is obviously if it's a GJ2 school yeah, that's that that part's not really gonna change
[01:35:02] Yeah, you're gonna learn GJ2 which is a beautiful thing
[01:35:07] The other thing that I gotta say is you got it
[01:35:11] GJ2 as much as I love it
[01:35:14] GJ2 is not
[01:35:16] a religion and
[01:35:19] you know
[01:35:20] The the black belt instructor at the school does not have contact or direct communications with God, right?
[01:35:30] so
[01:35:32] Just I think keep that in mind. It's a person that is trained in a sport for longer than you okay?
[01:35:38] So
[01:35:39] Just keep that in mind. It's not a cult there there should be an open atmosphere in my opinion
[01:35:44] You should be looking for a GJ2 school that has an open atmosphere
[01:35:47] Not a cult controlling atmosphere
[01:35:53] You know that being said and and I said this already respect
[01:35:58] Yes, absolutely you should respect the people that are there and respect your training partners and
[01:36:04] respect your
[01:36:06] instructors for sure, but
[01:36:08] You shouldn't be worshiping them and they shouldn't be expecting you to worship them
[01:36:13] So just be advised because GJ2 it should be fun. It should be friendly. It should be engaging
[01:36:20] The atmosphere should be good and it should be competitive without being cut throat
[01:36:24] You know you you should want to go without fear of having a death match every single night
[01:36:30] Unless that's what you're looking for and you just said that echoing me like I go in every night looking for a death match against being against you against
[01:36:38] Andy, you know against
[01:36:40] Who can crack or grab I mean are true of murderers?
[01:36:44] I'm I'm going in for death match every night and even when I don't want a death match I give it to him because because that's how I'm getting better
[01:36:50] And that's part of my own
[01:36:52] Personal will to say you know what regardless
[01:36:55] I'm in there to
[01:36:57] Put it on the line and and throw it out there and if they get the best of me cool so be it. I learned I got better
[01:37:04] And I I definitely got better than I would if I was either a
[01:37:08] Sitting on the side of the mat be wrong with someone that's not as good or see you stay in at home
[01:37:14] Right, so yeah, that's so interesting how how it really does accommodate who you are like you when you see when you go in looking for it
[01:37:23] a death match every night
[01:37:25] That totally makes sense because of who you are and who I understand you to be
[01:37:29] But at the same time in the same gym on the same mat. Yeah. Yeah, you can have there's people chilling and rolling
[01:37:35] Who's you know, you know, you know, you know ends up getting his black belt a bunch of knowledge, but he is not going for any death match. Yeah, you know older guy
[01:37:44] That's what so
[01:37:45] In my opinion good about it. Yeah, so eight accommodate so you are so much like me
[01:37:50] I do both like some days death match sure, but most days you do that much like once every
[01:37:55] Every two weeks once every two weeks we get the death match Rebecca
[01:37:58] So yeah, go out there and join you jitsu, but make sure you don't fall into a cult
[01:38:08] Next
[01:38:10] Do you eat fruit and it's so how often and if not why not?
[01:38:19] No
[01:38:22] So
[01:38:23] Okay, do I eat fruit sometimes I eat fruit
[01:38:25] Hmm, but if you would ask me if you should eat fruit
[01:38:30] I would basically say no. I don't recommend it and again this is just a if you talk to
[01:38:37] Dom Dagastino who's a doctor or or mr. Paleo himself Rob Wolf
[01:38:43] If you if you go and listen to his podcast or doctor Peter itia
[01:38:47] You know who I've talked about before these guys
[01:38:49] They know what they're talking about and they will tell you what I'm telling you and these guys will back it up with
[01:38:57] Science upon science upon science so
[01:39:00] fruit carbohydrates spike here in some level just not good for you
[01:39:07] Again, and my an extremists know have some blueberries get your blueberries on get your blackberries on that's awesome
[01:39:14] But take a bunch of fruit and put it with some apple juice and mix it up in a blender and eat you know
[01:39:22] 400 grams a carbohydrates and one shot no don't do that. It's not good for you
[01:39:30] Have you ever eaten and I'm not saying when you're on the program so to speak
[01:39:35] Have you ever eaten the whole box of donuts negative?
[01:39:38] Have you ever eaten a bag of Hershey's kisses one time?
[01:39:44] Then it did not make did not work out good so when you say you don't eat fruit that's more of like when you're on the program
[01:39:50] Yeah, and you you're you want to know when I'm on the program
[01:39:55] Yeah, when you're on the now
[01:40:00] But yeah, I
[01:40:02] When when you're when you're trying to eat clean what you should be trying to clean 80% of the time as anyone will tell you
[01:40:09] You know keep it clean and and keep it to you know fat and and protein if you can do it
[01:40:19] A little bit of a subject change when
[01:40:21] If ever is it a good time to blow up that's someone to lose your temper well blow up at someone and lose your temper two different things, right?
[01:40:33] I think is it good? I think I think I think most people would think that they are the same thing
[01:40:38] Losing your temper and blowing up at someone and I can tell you that is almost never good to do that and when I say almost never I mean
[01:40:47] Never with the tiniest caveat
[01:40:50] of
[01:40:52] There is some possible scenarios where it might need to happen
[01:40:55] So if you lose your temper you blow up at somebody
[01:40:59] What do you what are you showing you're showing that you can't
[01:41:02] Control your temper and if you can't control your temper then what can you control?
[01:41:06] Right that and I'm not saying you should show no emotions because if you show no emotions
[01:41:12] And you're a robot and robots can't lead people and people don't follow robots
[01:41:16] So there's some obviously some level of showing emotions is needed
[01:41:22] But if you're
[01:41:24] Losing your temper you're not thinking clearly
[01:41:27] And if you're not thinking clearly because you've lost your temper you can't even read their reactions
[01:41:33] To what you're saying and the fact that you're blowing up is is clouding your own vision the fact that you're losing your temper is
[01:41:42] Clouding your own vision
[01:41:44] And so you got to detach in order to be observant in order to watch what your actions are so
[01:41:52] If you do have to blow up and win okay, so when when is this almost never happen if if you were working for me
[01:42:00] And you did something wrong
[01:42:02] And I said echo and it was grievous. It was like pretty grievous like it could have got someone hurt
[01:42:09] And I said echo hey
[01:42:11] Do you this was bad this is what happened? I don't know what I did wrong that thought the you made you think that would be okay
[01:42:18] But whatever I image I gave you
[01:42:22] That made you think this was okay. I this is the worst mistake I've ever made we can never let this happen again
[01:42:27] Okay, and you're like yeah, okay, and then four days later you do to get
[01:42:31] And I'd come at the same approach
[01:42:33] Maybe a little bit different like echo I don't know if there's anything I could do to make this more clear than I did
[01:42:39] What can I do to make you understand so we might go three or four five iterations maybe one more iteration
[01:42:44] I should say three iterations of
[01:42:47] You not you failing to do what you're supposed to do and getting someone hurt or almost getting someone hurt
[01:42:55] So now I go okay
[01:42:56] He hasn't listened to the indirect approach. He hasn't listened to the direct approach. He hasn't I've taken ownership of it
[01:43:03] He hasn't taken any yet
[01:43:05] I need to come out of a different angle. Okay. I need to lose my temper with him and it's gonna be a calculation and I won't actually lose my temper
[01:43:13] But I will raise my voice. I will get loud. I will point and I will make damn sure
[01:43:21] That you understand that this infraction that you have committed is
[01:43:26] severe and grievous and can never happen again and that's the situation where I would quote unquote
[01:43:33] Blow up at somebody it is so rare that
[01:43:39] It's so rare that in my military career off the top my head I can remember one and only one incident of this
[01:43:48] Where I actually said you know what this was this was a bad mistake
[01:43:53] I could see where these guys think they might be able to get away with this again in the future
[01:43:57] And I'm gonna make sure that they realize that was it the kind where they it's not like they made the same mistake
[01:44:03] It was more like they chose to do something
[01:44:06] They chose to do something a certain way and in my my
[01:44:10] Assessment of it was that they would do it again if I didn't make it perfectly clear
[01:44:17] That this could never happen again and so I raised my voice. I pointed in the face and
[01:44:24] You know gave them
[01:44:27] 20 seconds of
[01:44:31] of
[01:44:32] Intensity and the situation never happened again and they apologize
[01:44:39] But overall
[01:44:41] Not a good thing don't lose your temper people don't do it. Yeah, I would say losing your temper
[01:44:48] Not blowing up at someone losing your temper like for real losing it
[01:44:51] Uh, it's you can be hard it's gonna be hard to think of a situation where that's cool. Yeah, okay, and I'll tell you want to know when I lose my temper
[01:44:59] Or because I'll tell you I do lose my temper it happens once every six months and it is almost always with inanimate objects
[01:45:07] Namely
[01:45:09] objects that print or copy
[01:45:14] or compute in some way
[01:45:17] You know electronics
[01:45:19] Sometimes I I get I get angry. Yeah
[01:45:23] You probably want to keep that in private
[01:45:26] Areas right you know what people to see that yeah like my wife will hear me once every six months you know and she'll come in and she'll be like a printer and
[01:45:35] Oh, yeah
[01:45:37] She says you're stupid. I go. I know
[01:45:40] She goes it doesn't care if you yell at it. You know, I say yeah. I know
[01:45:44] I'm my experience that I found the same thing
[01:45:46] Looking we're looking okay here's the next question
[01:45:50] Your specific lifting workout your weekly training schedule including jiu-jitsu
[01:45:58] This is a big question and this for those of you that do jiu-jitsu out there in the world
[01:46:03] This is like when someone says hey, hey, jockel how do I pass your guard?
[01:46:07] Because I have a good guard and so you know someone that is a blue belt
[01:46:13] we'll say
[01:46:14] You know a how do I pass your guard you know and they and and literally
[01:46:19] I have guys at the gym that are
[01:46:22] Brown belts and black belts that pass my guard once every six months, you know
[01:46:28] So my guard is good and
[01:46:31] You know here's a blue belt like how do I pass your guard?
[01:46:33] So this this question kind of reminds me of that a little bit
[01:46:36] um specific lifting workout and weekly training schedule on jiu-jitsu. So this is a big ask
[01:46:44] And here's the problem that I have with us
[01:46:48] I'm an individual and
[01:46:51] I have
[01:46:52] Strength and weaknesses. I have
[01:46:54] Whatever little
[01:46:56] Injury thing that I'm working through at a particular time
[01:47:00] I have
[01:47:01] Things that I like to do and I have things that I don't like to do
[01:47:05] I have
[01:47:08] I'm an individual and my workout is for me and and I've taken and I've you know sometimes people
[01:47:15] I'll go on a trip and they'll be a guy that's naffly and you'll say oh, do you know I want to
[01:47:19] I want to go through one your workouts with you and I say okay and I've done that and and I've had guys
[01:47:26] Like almost hospitalized from going through one of my workouts and
[01:47:35] That's not good and then I've had other guys like there's guys out there that will just crush me and a workout you know and especially
[01:47:43] You know there's workouts that I have
[01:47:46] That I could be most of the world in you know there's workouts that I have that I could crush
[01:47:52] Anybody in and then there's workouts that some you know
[01:47:57] Yoga instructor could put me through that would crush me, right?
[01:48:01] So my point is that you get some people that that would die do one of my workouts and you get some people that would it be my one of my workouts
[01:48:09] Is no impact because they're an incredible athlete and so why would either one of them want to do my workout?
[01:48:15] It doesn't make any sense that they would want to do that so
[01:48:18] What I've been trying to think is I get asked all the time. You know what you work out what you work out what you work out
[01:48:25] And so what I've been trying to figure out is how to do this how do I
[01:48:30] How do I communicate what I'm doing and what I've
[01:48:35] What I've been kind of
[01:48:38] Going through the idea in my head is
[01:48:41] Putting together a like an ebook and I actually put this out on Twitter. I was like oh yeah, I'll do an ebook and people like ebook
[01:48:47] Yeah, do it do it so it's an idea that's already been floated out there unfortunately there's not been a lot of time to be right in ebooks
[01:48:53] But what what the focus would be
[01:48:56] Would be yeah like the types of exercise that I do yes, but and you know
[01:49:01] Kind of the numbers of that I that I do of them but more importantly
[01:49:05] Going to a from a leadership perspective is what is the intent?
[01:49:09] What is the commanders intent of my workout? What am I trying to accomplish because
[01:49:14] For you and me to accomplish the same thing is gonna be a different a very different workout right if if I want to
[01:49:24] If I want to take myself to a
[01:49:27] to an anaerobic threshold for a total of
[01:49:32] 15 minutes what I would do to get there is very different from what you would do to get there it just it just is
[01:49:38] If I wanted to destroy my legs with heavy squats it would be very different between what you would do and what I would do
[01:49:47] So what's important is is not the actual exercises that I'm doing it's the intent and am I achieving that
[01:49:54] Attent and am I achieving that intent like I can do a
[01:50:00] Decent amount of pull-ups right and and in one of my pull-up workouts
[01:50:05] I might do 500 pull-ups or 300 pull-ups
[01:50:10] There's a lot of people that can't do a hundred pull-ups. So
[01:50:14] Just in the workout right not 300 pull-ups. Yeah, no, I can't do three hundred pull-ups in a row. No
[01:50:20] I wish I could but
[01:50:22] But my intent is to you know
[01:50:23] Max do do a number of maximum sets of pull-ups and then do a number of slow
[01:50:30] You know very good form
[01:50:32] Maximum sets and and the intent is to get stronger at pull-ups by doing you know a
[01:50:40] high number of maximum sets and I think that intent to give to people would say okay
[01:50:47] So that way if Echo's not gonna pause and you go okay well I'm gonna go in and I know what the intent is
[01:50:51] I'm trying to get to a point of failure even on one single pull-up and it might take you only
[01:50:56] 15 minutes do that and 30 pull-ups, you know or whatever the case may be and for someone that's really good a rock climber
[01:51:03] It might take them you know 45 minutes and they might be 600 pull-ups deep before they get there
[01:51:10] And so that's kind of the idea I'm batting around. I don't know if people have that really interested in that
[01:51:16] I think a lot of times people
[01:51:18] want
[01:51:20] a formula
[01:51:22] and I don't think I'm gonna give out a formula because the formula is gonna be different for different people at different times and their lives and ages and
[01:51:30] Body weights and you know male or female they're just all so many variables
[01:51:36] But I think if I can give out what the intent of my workouts are
[01:51:41] then
[01:51:42] We're in the right place. Yeah, but those those different
[01:51:46] Variables and stuff that that could very well be the reason that people want your workout because it's to this
[01:51:51] Two things. It's probably more than two but two big things
[01:51:55] That kind of come along with wanting your specific workout and one would be just to kind of immerse myself into what you go through in a workout
[01:52:04] And how does that feel and how do I kind of measure up you know
[01:52:09] And then so those two things like what does it feel like to do a joccal workout?
[01:52:13] You know like how hard is it? You know he's gonna do you know 600 pull-ups in a workout limb
[01:52:18] The lift you know like how does that feel you know is that the hardest thing I've ever done or you know is that just obvious you know these workouts are that hard
[01:52:26] Joccal some punk
[01:52:28] Right well that that's the second part does it you know
[01:52:32] How do I measure up if he does you know 20 sets
[01:52:37] Of squats with whatever weight
[01:52:39] How do I measure up? Can I get all those 20 sets or can I get that weight for 20 sets you know
[01:52:44] So those two things one they just want to immerse themselves in your in your world as far as workouts go and the second one is it's how do I measure up?
[01:52:51] I know that's kind of what I think when when someone's like oh here's here's our workout like those CrossFit workouts
[01:52:56] some of those
[01:52:58] Just mentally I do that like okay this guy's doing
[01:53:02] 20 pull-ups in a row like how many can I do you know I measure and then at the same time
[01:53:07] It's like this is you get to understand what these CrossFiters do
[01:53:14] Come here, you know and then like I said they go back and forth that those two things and I think that that that is interesting
[01:53:20] Like if you were to tell me what you did this morning for a workout yeah like I'd be interested
[01:53:25] On top of the fact that oh made that I want to do that workout for me for results for myself
[01:53:30] Right and yet you're right it may or may I'm now all probably have different results
[01:53:35] Even if I do that the same workout is you for you know six months. I might have different results
[01:53:39] but that part about measuring up and just
[01:53:43] Knowing who you are and kind of what you stand for and this is the workout that you do just understanding that I think that's significant too
[01:53:51] Yeah, I would love to tell you that I'm some you know physical specimen but I'm not
[01:53:55] I'm actually not the strongest guy. I'm not the fastest guy. I'm not the most flexible guy
[01:54:00] I try hard and I also am a result of my my physical aptitude is like a
[01:54:11] Is like a is like a
[01:54:14] brownish gray
[01:54:17] paint because I mix up so much stuff in there that I'm the result of
[01:54:25] You know, I'm not bright red
[01:54:27] Right, right, right. I'm not bright blue
[01:54:31] Because those two things you know the strength has been mixed with endurance has been mixed with flexibility
[01:54:35] has been mixed with all these things have been mixed together and I don't want to get
[01:54:40] Too much of any of them yeah because then I'm losing something else and so so I'm kind of this this this kind of average in many
[01:54:50] categories and
[01:54:52] and my numbers in very few of the modern press anybody you're pretty strong now
[01:54:58] Yeah, and and you know like but I'm not one of those people that's on the mat that you go man
[01:55:03] that guy is just
[01:55:05] Freaking strong, you know, well, at least it's hard for me to judge but I know that
[01:55:11] I guess people say oh you're strong. Yeah, sometimes I think that okay
[01:55:16] You're like that guy on the you know you ever play video games? No
[01:55:19] Okay, so let's say you play I don't know football
[01:55:23] Yeah, you play football so when you analyze your players
[01:55:26] It'll have all these attributes speed hands acceleration right and it's like I don't know zero to 10
[01:55:34] So you're the guy who has all like eights
[01:55:36] Yeah, instead of the guy with two tans and then a three yeah, you know
[01:55:40] But like anybody that's listening to this podcast can beat me in a bunch of categories
[01:55:44] Yeah, you know they got tans and some stuff right and and I don't I don't have any tans and anything
[01:55:51] That's okay not everyone can have tans. Yeah
[01:55:57] Next question yeah
[01:56:01] Would you talk more about how you view aggression positives and negatives?
[01:56:10] Well
[01:56:12] I like everything
[01:56:16] In life and in leadership and in your personality
[01:56:22] It has to be balanced aggression has to be balanced and you know one of the one of the things from from the book
[01:56:29] Is you know you got to be aggressive but not overbearing so yeah you got to be aggressive to be a leader
[01:56:34] You've got to be
[01:56:36] Because if you're gonna make things happen you've got to be aggressive to make things happen
[01:56:39] You have to make things happen, you know, I always say people like all they want to make money
[01:56:45] I'm like oh you you just make money you have to take you have to take that money
[01:56:48] It doesn't gonna fall in your house
[01:56:50] Line your lap. It's not gonna make itself you have to take it if that's what your goal is
[01:56:54] Injudjitsu you're you're not gonna get better just by being you have to take the the progression
[01:57:01] You have to take it and make it happen and
[01:57:04] And that's the same thing with anything in life. So so aggression
[01:57:06] Definitely comes into play but
[01:57:10] For instance in a leadership position if you're completely aggressive all the time your
[01:57:17] Subordinance will not want to
[01:57:20] Communicate with you they want to debate with you they want to say hey boss
[01:57:23] I don't agree with what you're saying here because it afraid you're gonna go hey you don't know what you're talking about
[01:57:27] We're gonna go my way out of the highway that's what they're gonna expect so you can't be overbearing
[01:57:32] You know on the mat you can't exhaust yourself with aggression
[01:57:35] And that's one of the things you know that I think from
[01:57:40] Purple the brown belt which is you know your your
[01:57:44] Six to eight years in the game is where people start to calm down and realize that that aggression needs to be
[01:57:50] Tampered and control and people have to relax
[01:57:53] um
[01:57:54] And in combat
[01:57:56] Obviously being aggressive and being this aggressively decisive
[01:58:00] Is important but if you go too far without you're running to your death
[01:58:06] So you have to modulate your aggressive you have to modulate your aggression you can't
[01:58:12] Abuse it you gotta use it but you can't abuse it
[01:58:16] And I don't want to discount aggression in any way
[01:58:20] Because you know I always say that your default mode
[01:58:26] Should be aggression like when you
[01:58:28] When you hit the reset button on your brain you should come out of that reset being aggressive because that that
[01:58:36] Be aggressive be proactive make things happen
[01:58:40] Beyond offense, you know not sitting back and waiting
[01:58:45] To be attacked or waiting
[01:58:48] For a situation to occur no make that situation occur go
[01:58:51] Hmm so that's my view of aggression and and it just has to be balanced and there's of there are still times
[01:59:03] Where you know if you meet aggression with aggression it's actually
[01:59:08] Not good you know you you see this in digital you see this in escalating in when you're either in a
[01:59:14] Comfortation of some kind of somebody
[01:59:16] Aggressively escalating something might be a good choice. It might be a bad choice. You know
[01:59:20] There's always the bully that as soon as you you say hey, you know what I'd love to fight in fact fighting is my favorite thing to do
[01:59:25] Let's go I got it's like no man. I was I was just kidding. So aggression
[01:59:30] Will win there
[01:59:32] Or you know if someone's really being aggressive and you just knock him out
[01:59:36] Well, then that's that's a better handling of the situation
[01:59:39] But there's also times where there's you know maybe there's multiple attackers or someone that's you know you're in the street
[01:59:44] No, it's it's always better in the street to avoid the confrontation, you know
[01:59:50] With his at-person have a knife does that person have a get gun?
[01:59:53] Is does that person have a communicable disease? Does that person have friends around the corner?
[01:59:57] Is that personal lawyer who's gonna sue you?
[01:59:59] I mean there's all these reasons to get into to not get into a fight in the street so
[02:00:05] So aggressively
[02:00:08] Meeting aggression with aggression is probably not that smart. It's probably better to avoid this scenario
[02:00:13] And then and the more time you spend in
[02:00:17] You know in combat sports boxing and doing you just to them the more likely you are to be able to be like, you know what?
[02:00:23] I don't need to prove anything this guy. I'm it's it means nothing to me
[02:00:27] I prove myself on the matter every single day. I got nothing to prove to to Joe drunk idiot over here
[02:00:33] So I think that aggression again. I think your default mood mode should be aggressive
[02:00:40] But make sure that you maintain enough detachment of the situation that you can see if you're being overly aggressive and it's leading you to a bad scenario
[02:00:50] Okay last question you talk about mine control
[02:00:55] Can you expand your thoughts on that subject?
[02:01:01] Mind control
[02:01:03] You know when people think of the word mind control they think of controlling other people's minds and
[02:01:14] And when I think about mind control I think about
[02:01:19] controlling your own mind
[02:01:21] because
[02:01:23] while
[02:01:24] I am obviously a physical person and we spend a lot of this
[02:01:28] Podcast tonight talking about physical culture and I embrace physicality
[02:01:33] but
[02:01:35] We are our minds and
[02:01:37] I'm not gonna be you know going into a Sam Harris philosophical rant on
[02:01:46] What it means and where the you actually is and whether there's a soul or a brain or whatever your heart
[02:01:53] or some other
[02:01:54] conjured up place
[02:01:56] This is what I know
[02:01:58] Is that you
[02:02:00] Your mind
[02:02:03] The thing that is listening and comprehending these words right now that is you
[02:02:09] and that thing that mind
[02:02:12] You can control
[02:02:15] You
[02:02:17] You are the machine and you can control the machine and people ask me
[02:02:24] How do I get tougher
[02:02:27] Be tougher
[02:02:29] They ask me how can I wake up earlier in the morning
[02:02:33] The answer is wake up earlier in the morning
[02:02:37] How can I work out consistently every single day
[02:02:41] Work out consistently every single day
[02:02:45] How can I stop from eating sugar
[02:02:49] Stop eating sugar
[02:02:55] What about the emotions
[02:02:57] How can I stop missing that girl or that guy who whoever whoever broke up with me?
[02:03:03] How can I stop missing them
[02:03:08] Stop missing them
[02:03:13] That is mind control you have that ability
[02:03:18] You just have to assert it you have to decide that you're gonna be in control
[02:03:23] And that you are going to do what you want to do
[02:03:29] weakness doesn't get a vote
[02:03:33] Lazyness they don't get a vote
[02:03:37] Sadness no no vote frustration no vote negativity
[02:03:44] You don't get a vote
[02:03:48] I don't even give my temper a vote
[02:03:49] So
[02:03:52] The next time
[02:03:54] That you're feeling weak or you're feeling lazy or you're feeling soft or you're feeling emotional
[02:04:01] Tell them that they don't get a vote
[02:04:05] Tell them you are declaring martial law on your mind
[02:04:11] You're declaring mind control and
[02:04:15] Impose
[02:04:17] What you want on your brain
[02:04:20] Impose the discipline and the power and the positivity and the will
[02:04:28] And use that mind control
[02:04:32] To move your life
[02:04:34] Where you want it to be
[02:04:36] It's the things I always say get stronger faster smarter quicker friendlier more helpful more driven
[02:04:44] Don't let your mind control you
[02:04:51] Control your mind
[02:04:54] And once you control your mind
[02:04:59] Then
[02:05:01] You can set it free
[02:05:06] And I think we'll close with that for today. Yeah, that's about all of that
[02:05:10] You've got life right there
[02:05:12] And you know
[02:05:14] If you're out there and you want to communicate with us you want to carry on this conversation
[02:05:20] You want to continue down this path
[02:05:25] You can do so on Twitter
[02:05:29] I'm at Jocco Willink and echo is at echo Charles
[02:05:35] I want to thank everyone for listening
[02:05:38] I want to thank you for subscribing to this podcast for placing reviews
[02:05:45] on this podcast
[02:05:48] for spreading the word about this podcast and most of all I want to thank you
[02:05:57] for getting after it
[02:05:59] This is Jocco and echo and until next time
[02:06:03] Out