Jocko Podcast 41 with Tony Eafrati - BTF BTF BTF BTF

2016-09-21T05:39:47Z

Join the Conversation on Twitter: @jockowillink @echocharles 0:00:00 - Opening 0:10:27 - Who is BTF Tony Eafrati? 0:17:10 - Allowing Leif to Give Orders to the men... 0:29:04 - Failures in Planning 0:31:26 - Ups and Downs of THE BATTLEFIELD, and how it made Tony "feel." 0J:36:11 - Funny Story about Jocko 0:39:47 - Tell-tale signs that someone is Good to Go, or Not up to Snuff. 0:43:37 - Has Tony disagreed with an order from Leif or Jocko. 0:47:33 - One driving characteristic that separates a "dominant alpha Team guy" from everyone else. 0:51:37 - In the Teams, what are the biggest Reputation builders and killers? 0:59:38 - What makes a great NCO? And who was the best Tony/Jocko knew? 1:05:37 - IN COMBAT: Accuracy VS. Volume of Fire? 1:11:16 - Tony's perspective working for Jocko. 1:13:38 - The Early Days when Tony & Jocko were the "young" guys. 1:19:40 - Tony's BEST Story(s) about BTF. 1:23:41 - Tony's thought Process on what strategies/ tactics to use against the enemy. 1:28:25 - Tony's most Difficult thing he's ever did as a SEAL. Most fearful moment. 1:30:20 - Tony's favorite piece of Kit. 1:32:20 - Number 1 Quality that allows a leader to lead others into uncomfortable scenarios. 1:35:16 - Tony's attitude toward DEATH. 1:37:41 - Training New guys entering the Platoon. 1:41:05 - Civilian life: Putting the high of WAR behind you. Are you still searching? 1:47:35 - How do you keep your head in the game when one of your Squad is killed? 1:54:08 - Why is Tony "hard"? 2:03:10 - Dope Internet/Onnit Stuff

AI summary of episode

Because you know, I mean, even in everyday person, if they, they do something kind of hard or work out or even, you know, something like people will recreation and be like, I think going around a marathon or something like that. Like one of the things that that separate, like what when I worked with you that first time, and I saw you like being humble, I was like, man, that's that to me is the characteristic that you can tell the guy is not just a good team guy, but an awesome team guy when he's humble about what's going on. I mean, there's just, you know, if I don't get to people back home's name, I'm sorry, but, you know, I got really good friends that that tried to help me kind of, but they just have no idea, like, you know, there's one old team guy back there. But some people like just insane skydivers, some guys are just phenomenal rock climbers, some guys are just like swimming, sons of guns, you know, or runners and wrestlers and fistfighters and there's, you know, some people just in the guns. Like, like I remember, you know, I remember getting like three briefs about some guy that I was getting in a platoon about where this guy got lost. You know, like if you, I mean, even like you'll hear about a guy that gets lost in buzz in and you or like gets lost going through the initial training. Yeah, so eight, you know what's interesting too, like we talked about points, you know, but the guys like all of our guys are AW gunners put sights put the eight cogs on there on there. But even even overall above and beyond just the water situation where, and you're like this tool that we're kind of talking about this where, do you think that, you know, like if you just sit around indoors and after all, you're like, bro, I gotta get out. Oh, like people like, like look, my cool scar, you know, that kind of thing. You know, he's like, well, I wish I could, you know, conceal weapon carry, you know, it's got, say I got my revolver So if someone was like, hey, you know, that guy's a really good shot and then someone immediately, but you know, you ever, you don't know how to swim though. Like, like, like, I, I freely admit, like, I don't sleep a lot, right? There's little things, but overall, you know, I didn't have to like, figure out, figure out like a woman and, you know, it was all wishy, washy, about shit and stuff. Because if you lead by example and you're humble and you're good to your guys and you know, you're guys and you know your guys and you let them know you. You know, I, I don't, I guess I could have been more like a nice whatever, but I'm like, man, you look like you're fucking fat. I feel like just like how you were saying, I think, you know, a few weeks ago, you were like, There is, there is a word for it. And it wasn't like a big difference, but you know, a normal person has a 26% chance of making it through and someone from New England had like a 37 or something like a small uptick. I was like, hmm, I, you know, so that was like, yeah, that was like my praise. I mean, everybody's got to know that man, you know, I, I don't want, like, my favorite thing is I go out on an operation with you guys and not do anything. You know, even, even stuff like the weather, you know, talk it, you know, all of a sudden, a snowing. But, but, you know, a lot of people, so if you're listening and you're wondering, you know, what makes, what makes somebody a good, like a good NCO and it was a lot of Marines, a lot of soldiers listen to this. And I know that, you know, like I always trust, you guys are going to do the right thing. Like, a lot of people, like some people, they can be big, well, they can run, you know, 10 miles, no problem all this stuff, but they get in certain kind of discomfort physically or whatever they're done. He was like, oh, yeah, no, like, like just guys that were so, so fired up that, yeah. Then like, you know, the guys who showed up later, whatever they're still kind of like, hey, you want all kicked out of the ladies. And so that kind of trained us like being hung over and stuff like, I mean, we would be like, hung over and go work I mean, especially like the sister's kids, those guys were, you know, we had the new guys, we had the older guys, and then we had the middle guys. Actually, I actually remember you were briefing some of the guys when we were back and you were like, um, you were like, hey, you know what? You know, I got some good families back there, you know, that helped me out, like, friends of mine, friends of my family. You know, in the bottom line is I'm not coming down and going, I'm not coming down and going down and going down and going down and going down and going down and going down and going down. And like, if we can just slow down a little bit, you know, I'm like, okay, I mean, what's your limit, bitch? But when the shit hits the fan, you know, it's, it's strange because it makes me, like, a little bit like a little calmer, I think. Yeah, like, just not the other way for those of you out there like, oh, he like didn't do his job. It's no fun being a team guy when you're 44, you know, and you get up and you're like, I'm like, I better retire. And you know how, like, after around this done, like a lot of people, and I was one of those people. And you know, actually when I told people that you're coming on the show, you know, people actually know who you are from the Liftetel. You know, I figured if this, I have a pretty good chance to stay out of the clinic, you know, this way, but not always, but a few times, you know. You know, this guy and I was like, you know, is he, is he good to go?

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Episode transcript

[00:00:00] This is Jocco podcast number 41 with echo Charles and me, Jocco Willink. Good evening, echo. Good evening.
[00:00:11] And tonight we are lucky to have a guest on the podcast. My friend, my teammate, my brother, Tony, a fratty.
[00:00:28] And I'm going to start the podcast by reading a speech that I wrote when Tony retired from the teens.
[00:00:37] And for whatever reason, some reason that I don't remember, it was a worker job or some travel or something.
[00:00:44] I couldn't actually be there to read this myself.
[00:00:50] And that's the way the team is, you do your job, that's the priority. And I knew Tony would understand that I wouldn't be there.
[00:00:59] It would be no big deal to him. And I acted like it was no big deal to me.
[00:01:06] But I wanted to be there. And I should have been there in a row to speech. And I'm emailed it to one of our friends, one of our bros, another seal master chief.
[00:01:18] And he read it there. But I should have been there to read it myself.
[00:01:25] And you will hear that this speech is kind of like Tony is draw and straightforward and real.
[00:01:36] And so here's the speech that I wrote for Tony when he retired.
[00:01:43] Here we go. First of all, I apologize to Tony that I couldn't be there out in the desert today to see you off.
[00:01:54] For those of you that are with him today, know this.
[00:02:00] Tony a fratty is a hero.
[00:02:03] A dirty, scrappy, rough, hard, mean bastard, but a hero.
[00:02:13] I've known him for over 20 years. And in those 20 years, I got to see him in many capacities.
[00:02:21] First, as a young, hardcore, beer, swill in muscle car, driving machine gun in fist fighting third class petty officer.
[00:02:32] Then as an experienced hardcore, jacked Daniels swilling fist fighting second class leading petty officer.
[00:02:41] Next as a badass hardcore fist fighting knowledge filled first class training cell instructor.
[00:02:51] And finally as a seal, puttune chief.
[00:02:56] And we all know that being a platoon chief is supposed to mean that your hard core, it's supposed to mean that your experience, it's supposed to mean that your tough bastard, it's supposed to mean that your fearless, it's supposed to mean that you're a true leader of men.
[00:03:11] Unfortunately, we all know that that isn't always true, but with Tony, it's 100% true. Tony is without question, the primordial seal chief, the ultimate senior enlisted leader.
[00:03:31] When I joined the teams, I joined a follow guys like Tony into unbridled combat into the violent fray into hell.
[00:03:43] I was lucky enough to work with Tony when he was one of the platoon chiefs in our task unit as seal team three from 2005 to 2006.
[00:03:52] Task unit bruiser. We started our work up here in the desert, the true forging ground of frog men.
[00:04:01] With a couple years on me, he was the oldest guy in the troop and therefore the primary representative of the old breed.
[00:04:10] And he represented the old breed with honor.
[00:04:14] He immediately proved that he was physically harder, mentally tougher, and operationally superior to any of the young bucks.
[00:04:22] Really, it was August 115 plus degrees. He didn't get tired. He outshot everyone. He ran immediate action drills like Earl and Rahmall.
[00:04:35] He didn't drink water. Seriously.
[00:04:39] Coffee and Copenhagen, that's it. And desert training was just the beginning. He led every evolution through the entire work up.
[00:04:47] Always coming up with the plan, always training and mentoring the new guys and everyone else.
[00:04:51] We trained and we trained hard.
[00:04:54] I drew a line in the sand. Tony held that line.
[00:04:58] We pushed the envelope and every evolution and prepared for war.
[00:05:05] Somehow, somehow, some way we knew what the future held.
[00:05:12] We deployed to Ramadi. I racked an April of 2006 and to our absolute joy.
[00:05:20] It was an embroiled war zone.
[00:05:24] We had been on the ground about a day when I went to meet the brigade commander.
[00:05:28] Tony was already out in the city in a sniper overwatch position.
[00:05:33] As I walked into the brigade tactical operation center and shook hands with the Colonel John Gronsky.
[00:05:40] He said, one of your snipers just killed an IED in place or up on race track where we lost four marines three days ago.
[00:05:49] And that is exactly what he needed us to do. He needed us to kill them.
[00:05:54] That sniper was Tony.
[00:05:56] With the first kill of the deployment, strategic due to its timing, timing that opened up the entire battle space to task unabrusor.
[00:06:06] And so we fought and fought and killed the enemy by the bushel.
[00:06:13] Tony was at the front the entire time.
[00:06:17] He never wavered. He never faltered despite the heat, despite the danger, despite heavy casualties he constantly pushed to get out over
[00:06:25] and over and over again to kill the savages that were determined destroy of America and coalition forces.
[00:06:34] He never asked for a pause or a break or a night off or a minute off.
[00:06:40] Everything that I ever asked of him, everything he did and he did it with every ounce of commitment and drive and self-lensess and professionalism that any human could ever muster.
[00:06:53] And we would talk and laugh and we would discuss what we could do better and we would come up with a plan and in the end Tony would give me a head nod.
[00:07:02] And that head nod meant he had it.
[00:07:06] It was done. He owned it.
[00:07:09] And I never doubted that. Ever.
[00:07:14] He never missed an operation and applied himself to each mission with solemn gravity as the senior enlisted leader.
[00:07:22] He poured over maps and imagery. He held detailed warning orders. He briefed the platoon with clarity and directness.
[00:07:30] He led rehearsals. He did everything he could do to be ready.
[00:07:35] And his platoon performed magnificently accounting for hundreds of enemy killed.
[00:07:42] When his own men were wounded or killed and action had only fueled his motivation to kill more of the enemy to fight harder to slaughter more of the evil,
[00:07:51] so a list of enemy and rid the world of their wretched kind.
[00:07:56] That is what every seal should aspire to be like in Tony's words, BTF, a big tough frogman with no fear, no hesitation and no mercy.
[00:08:08] Just BTF through everything like Tony did.
[00:08:13] For senior chief of fratis courage determination and leadership, I will be eternally grateful. I owe him more than I can ever repay him for what he did for me, for the task unit, for the teams and for our great nation.
[00:08:29] Let there be no doubt. The man before you is a hero.
[00:08:34] The teams are a worse place without his presence, his guidance, his leadership, his example.
[00:08:40] Those that served with him must strive to carry the torch and pass it on so that his spirit burns bright in the teams forever.
[00:08:51] I recently watched a movie about Lemmy Kilimister, the leader of the original classic heavy metal thrash band motorhead.
[00:09:05] The movie Chronicles, the Life of Lemmy, the hard-living rock and roll legend.
[00:09:11] The movie paints a picture of a unique individual that will never, that can never exist again.
[00:09:20] The movie is called Lemmy, 49% Motherfucker, 51% Son of a bitch.
[00:09:29] And that seems to suit Lemmy pretty well.
[00:09:33] And I'm not exactly sure how those numbers would break out for Tony, but I do know this.
[00:09:39] Tony of fratis is 100% frog man. Always was and always will be.
[00:09:47] Tony, thanks for everything. I'll see you on the other side.
[00:09:53] BTF, Jaco.
[00:09:59] And with that, Tony, thanks for coming on the show.
[00:10:05] Thanks a lot, brother.
[00:10:07] Kind of forgot about that there and that was good.
[00:10:11] The guy we were talking about read it pretty good too.
[00:10:14] I didn't have like a big ceremony or nothing.
[00:10:17] He went out to Nile and we got all gummed up and that was about it.
[00:10:21] But I do appreciate it, man.
[00:10:24] It's good to see you, brother.
[00:10:26] It's good to see you, too.
[00:10:29] And you know, actually when I told people that you're coming on the show,
[00:10:32] you know, people actually know who you are from the Liftetel.
[00:10:37] And lay, lay, sleep's been on here. We talked about you, you know, told some stories and shit.
[00:10:43] And so, but a bunch of people had a bunch of questions.
[00:10:46] And you know, I figured we try and get through some of them.
[00:10:49] We don't feel the answer all the ones that I got, but I picked out some of them.
[00:10:53] Let you take a look and pick out some of them.
[00:10:56] So, well, I mean, first and foremost, people just want to know kind of who the hell are you and where do you come from?
[00:11:03] As funny, uh, few years back, like, uh, we're all in Arizona.
[00:11:10] I took a bunch of the guys and a platoon over to my parents' house.
[00:11:14] You know, we had supper and every day.
[00:11:16] You know, it was a wicked fun.
[00:11:17] Jeremy pulls me aside. He's like, you're actually have parents.
[00:11:22] You're born around a rock somewhere in the desert.
[00:11:25] He's like, shut up.
[00:11:26] You know, that was pretty funny.
[00:11:29] Now, I'm from New Hampshire and, uh,
[00:11:33] right, let's just probably like you, just, yeah.
[00:11:37] It's not so much wanted to be a seal.
[00:11:39] I just wanted to be something different.
[00:11:41] You know, I could have went like a biker gang, or so I'm just as easy, you know.
[00:11:46] You know, I figured if this, I have a pretty good chance to stay out of the clinic, you know, this way, but
[00:11:51] not always, but a few times, you know.
[00:11:55] I'm fair now, but it seems just suited me because everybody's the same.
[00:12:00] Everybody, you know, everywhere you look, guys are doing what you would do and they act
[00:12:06] how you would act and it's not always great, but, you know.
[00:12:10] So you, you got recruited, though, by some of the boys, like, over in the PI didn't you?
[00:12:15] Yeah, yeah. I mean, I wanted to be a seal, but I wasn't like 1,000 percent, you know.
[00:12:20] And I was in the Philippines and I was like, all right, I got to do that.
[00:12:25] That's it. So I went and got a screening test over there in Subeck Bay and, you know, I smoked it.
[00:12:32] And then, you know, they didn't have this long pipeline back then.
[00:12:35] I got there on a Friday. We got all gumbbed up and shaved their heads on Sunday and we started Monday.
[00:12:41] There was nothing. That was it. Okay, go.
[00:12:44] Yeah, I actually, I know I was talking to the old master chief that actually was the guy that recruited you and told you you need to be a team guy.
[00:12:53] And I was talking to the other day when you were down at his house on the phone.
[00:12:58] Yeah, but, yeah, and he was one of my Patoon Chiefs as you know, but I told him, I told him the best thing he ever did for the teams was get you to enjoy the teams.
[00:13:08] He was laughing. He probably probably probably would definitely have best thing for you. Oh, yeah, sure.
[00:13:14] Master walk, guys, a try. Yeah, absolutely.
[00:13:17] But it's just, you know, it's the teams like between us we got probably 46 years a team guy life.
[00:13:24] And it's so hard to put in perspective. If you don't know what you're talking, you know, you've never been there.
[00:13:29] People don't know that we don't call each other seals.
[00:13:34] Yeah, you never say that. Nobody says when I joined Navy seals, it's like when I became a team guy.
[00:13:41] I just say that everyone just like turn their head go.
[00:13:44] He's retarded. Yeah, it's come on really weird when you hear a team guy refer to being a Navy seal.
[00:13:50] Yeah, it actually makes you think, well, wait, do it the way second. This guy must not have actually been in the team.
[00:13:55] Yeah, okay, well, classroom. The immediate interrogation like with your hand cock behind your back.
[00:13:59] I think that's going to. It's going to give him so I gave his drivers license of black eye.
[00:14:05] Yeah, I don't know where that. I don't know where that comes from like where we don't say it. I guess maybe it's I don't know when I got the team wanted it was like, oh,
[00:14:14] you don't talk about it. Yeah, you don't say it. No, no stickers. No t-shirts. No, no, you don't do any that.
[00:14:20] I'm sure all the possible punishment by death. Yeah, you know, say anything.
[00:14:25] I thought we were going to be an I'm the next day. Yeah. You know, you say, oh, good.
[00:14:30] After a while, like, right.
[00:14:32] What's happening here? Yeah, let's go on.
[00:14:35] Good. All right, man. Well, so that's Tony grew up in New England like me.
[00:14:44] And you know, did you ever hear this that they spent a bunch of money trying to figure out who's
[00:14:49] going to go out and out? Who's going to go out? I know. I know. And the only literally the only two against wasn't big.
[00:14:54] God was guys that wrestled and guys from New England.
[00:14:59] And it wasn't like a big difference, but you know, a normal person has a 26% chance of making it through and someone from New England had like a 37 or something like a small uptick.
[00:15:10] I mean, you know what? I think also that this good people out on the country don't get me wrong with New England as a pretty strong
[00:15:18] work ethic. You know what I mean? Yeah.
[00:15:20] And I've seen that a lot a lot. And not that other people don't. Yeah.
[00:15:25] But all the guys, mostly guys that knew from New England and the teams that are pretty good work ethic. Yeah. Yeah.
[00:15:31] I think you just cold too. Yeah. That doesn't help. That doesn't matter. I think it does.
[00:15:38] Because I thought guys from Florida in my class like, those kids from Florida. There was a couple kids from Florida.
[00:15:44] And they were, you know, all loud and like they were just big tough guys that they were already in the teams basically in their own minds. And they all quit.
[00:15:50] I know. Well, like the first day of Buds and looking around, some of these guys, they're like, wow.
[00:15:56] Holy crap. These guys are like insane shape and all this stuff. I'm still hung over for the one ride from the P.I.
[00:16:04] You know, like, you know, it's.
[00:16:06] And I made it.
[00:16:08] They didn't.
[00:16:10] It's. It's weird. You know, they just had this kid that quit Buds. And he went and jumped off of a hotel down in San Diego, killed himself.
[00:16:18] And I looked at a picture of him.
[00:16:20] He missed the pool or something. No, there was no pool to jump into. He killed himself.
[00:16:24] And he did it right.
[00:16:26] Yeah.
[00:16:27] He succeeded.
[00:16:28] But I was looking at him. I was talking to one guy that we know who's instructor over there.
[00:16:32] And I was looking at a picture of the dude and the dude was like,
[00:16:35] just like, distracting guy all buffed with like, blood there. It just looked like a total stud.
[00:16:41] And I go, man, that kind of looked like a stud. What happened?
[00:16:43] And then instructor guy said, dude, they all look like that now.
[00:16:47] Like everybody's just, you know, it's a big deal. Hey, I'm going to go in the
[00:16:51] Seal things. I'm going to go in the Seal teams. And that's what they're saying.
[00:16:53] So they're recruiting is really easy, but they're recruiting all these studs.
[00:16:56] But it doesn't matter. They cherish the same.
[00:16:58] Yeah.
[00:16:59] That's why, you know, you know, that the government wants more and more tingles.
[00:17:03] So just ain't going to happen. No. It's not unless you lower the standards.
[00:17:07] And if that happens, then we've all not done our job. Yeah. That's just terrible.
[00:17:12] Awesome. All right. Get some of these questions here.
[00:17:16] It says here on the first podcast with Lavey discussed a story,
[00:17:19] which Tony came up with a strategy for an open and Tony told Lavey to be better.
[00:17:23] The brief would be better coming from Lave.
[00:17:26] And it says, where did you develop this humility and this characteristic of not
[00:17:30] worrying about individual credit versus be team objectives?
[00:17:33] So to rehash that story real quick, it was real.
[00:17:36] We were out at the desert training facility and we were just planning you plan in some like,
[00:17:41] you know, we do iteration training. We just got to go to go to.
[00:17:43] Yeah. There's just one of those. And they changed the target or something.
[00:17:47] And you're like, OK, here's what we need to do.
[00:17:48] Put guys over here, put it over, watch over here and walk through online like this.
[00:17:51] And Lave's like, hey, sounds good to go.
[00:17:53] Watch get the guys over and brief them.
[00:17:55] And you said, hey, sir, you know what? You go ahead and brief them.
[00:17:58] That way, it sounds better coming from you and that'd be the way to do it.
[00:18:02] And he was like, well, all right, you know, he was fired up.
[00:18:06] And when I saw you do that, I was like, because this is the thing.
[00:18:10] And I forgot to mention this, you and I have known each other for a long time.
[00:18:13] We both have together.
[00:18:15] And we had the same friends and we hung out at the same places.
[00:18:19] Yeah, yeah.
[00:18:21] But we were never in a platoon together.
[00:18:24] And never worked together directly together until we were in tasking a bruiser.
[00:18:29] So when I got to Nile and I knew your reputation, which was rock solid,
[00:18:34] but I don't trust anybody about anybody.
[00:18:37] No, I was a customer.
[00:18:38] Yeah, I'm a customer.
[00:18:39] Yeah, yeah.
[00:18:40] So I just, you know, so I'm seeing you kind of for the first time out there of actually working.
[00:18:45] And, you know, that was a big indicator to me.
[00:18:48] I was like, damn, you know, this guy is totally humble.
[00:18:51] Wants to make his officer look good.
[00:18:54] Wants to make his, which is only going to make the platoon better.
[00:18:56] It's only going to make everybody better.
[00:18:58] So yeah, that was awesome.
[00:19:00] And what a great attitude to have.
[00:19:02] And I get asked that all the time people is, you know, my boss is doing this.
[00:19:05] And what should I do? I'm like, well, give him support.
[00:19:07] Trying to help him.
[00:19:08] Yeah.
[00:19:08] Trying to make him look good.
[00:19:09] But we think it's tuned away.
[00:19:11] People who is their ego of them want the credit.
[00:19:14] Right.
[00:19:14] And you see this up, maybe you can see this all the time in the two clips.
[00:19:17] So anyways, where did you realize that?
[00:19:19] Did anybody teach you?
[00:19:20] Or where the hell did you know to do that?
[00:19:23] I can read and watch people pretty good.
[00:19:26] And I watched some guys who kind of brought me up in the teams.
[00:19:30] Some of the guys we were talking about earlier.
[00:19:33] And I tried to kind of mimic them, but then it kind of morphs into your own.
[00:19:38] Shit, you know.
[00:19:39] No.
[00:19:40] And, well, the first thing is, I was just tired.
[00:19:43] And my voice was gone.
[00:19:44] I just wanted him to do it.
[00:19:46] No, just kidding.
[00:19:48] So tired.
[00:19:51] So tired.
[00:19:52] But yeah, like, get over there.
[00:19:56] Boss and do your job.
[00:19:58] But, I mean, some of them guys in that that puttune,
[00:20:02] they were already my chums like Chris Kyle and Bob and Jeremy.
[00:20:06] And I'm guys been around a while.
[00:20:08] And they already, you know, I put them through training and I am warfare and I am not one.
[00:20:13] So they, they know me.
[00:20:15] And I was doing a lot of that shit.
[00:20:19] And I'm like, no boss, you do it.
[00:20:22] Because basically he's new to them.
[00:20:25] Not new in the teams, but he was new.
[00:20:27] And I figured he's got to do this more and more and more.
[00:20:30] Yeah.
[00:20:31] And he did.
[00:20:32] Of course, you know, a wave stepped up like a gangbusters.
[00:20:36] It was a great officer.
[00:20:38] But in that, then beginning stages, like,
[00:20:41] all right, I've already done this a million times.
[00:20:44] Yeah, I don't care.
[00:20:45] I'm a good, you know, you want my advice great, but come on, let's just get the ball roll.
[00:20:49] I see it.
[00:20:50] And so if that answers the question.
[00:20:52] Yeah, that was, and again, that was always that it to do you had, which was,
[00:20:56] he never cared about looking good yourself.
[00:20:58] And part of that is you just had such a good reputation in the teams that,
[00:21:03] what are you going to do?
[00:21:05] Look even better.
[00:21:06] Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[00:21:07] I'm going to get another Navy calmer.
[00:21:09] But, but, you know,
[00:21:13] a lot of people, so if you're listening and you're wondering, you know, what makes,
[00:21:18] what makes somebody a good, like a good NCO and it was a lot of Marines, a lot of soldiers
[00:21:22] listen to this.
[00:21:23] What makes a good NCO?
[00:21:24] You don't always have to make yourself shine.
[00:21:26] You don't always have to be the guy that's the center of attention.
[00:21:28] And as a matter of fact, generally, that shines through as being a guy that wants
[00:21:33] to be the center of attention.
[00:21:34] Yeah.
[00:21:35] Instead of a guy that wants to have a good bull to.
[00:21:37] And it's not like it was doing it to make rank.
[00:21:40] I didn't expect to make you five.
[00:21:43] I don't know if I can see your G.
[00:21:44] God.
[00:21:46] All right.
[00:21:48] Next question, please detail the way you were able to use decentralized command
[00:21:54] when running task in a bruiser and how it was met through the other commanders.
[00:21:59] So for those of you that don't know decentralized command means you're going to let your subordinate
[00:22:05] leadership lead and you're not going to micro manage everybody.
[00:22:08] And that's definitely what I did.
[00:22:11] And I didn't micro manage.
[00:22:13] Well, I should I should rephrase that.
[00:22:15] We have people need to be micro managed.
[00:22:17] I'll micro manage them.
[00:22:18] They're jacked up.
[00:22:19] I'm going to be all in them.
[00:22:21] And like you're talking about with life and with Seth and over with the other between the Delta
[00:22:26] Poutine commander.
[00:22:27] I'm micro manage those guys.
[00:22:28] That crazy when we first got in.
[00:22:29] Yeah.
[00:22:30] Because I was just making sure they were good to go.
[00:22:31] Just because they worked that experience and just like guys that don't trust anybody
[00:22:36] when you don't know.
[00:22:37] Yeah.
[00:22:38] And then, but the goal was to just have them be able to run on their own and make stuff happen.
[00:22:45] Because I'll tell you another thing, you can't run everything yourself.
[00:22:50] Nobody can.
[00:22:51] No.
[00:22:52] And so you got to decentralized command.
[00:22:55] And that's what I did was I let, you know, when we got on deployment, I wasn't micro
[00:22:59] manage anything.
[00:23:00] I was barely I was just kind of broad guidance.
[00:23:03] Right.
[00:23:04] And then you guys were running the stuff and making things happen.
[00:23:08] I mean, I would have loved to be on every operation.
[00:23:11] But I physically couldn't because we had multiple obstacles going on.
[00:23:15] We had to split forces.
[00:23:16] So what are you going to do?
[00:23:18] I got no problems with anyone in that group.
[00:23:21] The lowest guy running it on.
[00:23:23] Yep.
[00:23:24] But you got to let your, you like, I let the boys basically screw up.
[00:23:29] Because then you don't know how they're going to react.
[00:23:31] Okay, do they just sit there and pound me.
[00:23:34] And then you got to slap more of or do they, okay, here's what you did wrong.
[00:23:39] Roger that.
[00:23:40] And then immediately we start thinking how to fix it.
[00:23:42] Because everybody fucks up everything.
[00:23:43] What's face?
[00:23:44] I mean, we're never always good at anything.
[00:23:47] Still ain't really good at much.
[00:23:49] There's BTF through.
[00:23:50] But all and so it doesn't seem like we made mistakes.
[00:23:53] I mean, really.
[00:23:55] Yeah.
[00:23:56] But leadership is funny because some guys take to a like water.
[00:24:00] And other guys are scared to death of it.
[00:24:02] Yeah.
[00:24:03] You know, lately I've been realizing that because people always say, you know, our leaders made or born.
[00:24:10] And can you make a person that's not a good leader into a good leader?
[00:24:13] And I look at it kind of like when you see these video games where people have different strengths and weaknesses.
[00:24:19] Yeah.
[00:24:20] And a guy might be strong and high intellect and good agility.
[00:24:26] And I don't know whatever those games pay her posture.
[00:24:29] Yeah.
[00:24:30] So with leadership the same thing because there's certain elements, certain natural things that you can have that make you a good leader.
[00:24:37] For instance, it is a real simple one.
[00:24:40] Can you be loud?
[00:24:41] And in the sealed teams, if you can't be loud, that's going to be a problem.
[00:24:45] Like you can't just take control of a room, be like, you know, hey, everyone get in this room.
[00:24:50] Yeah.
[00:24:51] Can't do that.
[00:24:52] People can hear you.
[00:24:53] Then you got to find a way around that.
[00:24:54] Right.
[00:24:55] Are you articulate?
[00:24:56] Can you simplify things that are complex?
[00:24:57] Because there's all these little things that you get ranked, you basically all ranked that.
[00:25:01] And some guys have they were born low rankings and they either find a way to make up for them.
[00:25:08] They learn how to do them better or they compensate by using somebody else.
[00:25:13] You know, if I wasn't loud, I'd be like, hey, Tony, tell everyone to get in here.
[00:25:16] Then you could do it.
[00:25:17] Right.
[00:25:18] That makes total sense though.
[00:25:21] Yeah.
[00:25:22] If someone out there is a leader of Ben and Wester's position, you know exactly they're talking about.
[00:25:26] Yeah.
[00:25:27] And sometimes it's, you know, hey, what's the problem?
[00:25:33] No, really, what's the problem?
[00:25:35] Well, okay.
[00:25:36] And like you said, good.
[00:25:37] Good.
[00:25:38] All right.
[00:25:39] Now you identify to go work it out.
[00:25:40] Don't sit around and cry about it and just go do it.
[00:25:43] You know, and you got five minutes.
[00:25:45] Yeah.
[00:25:46] Go check out.
[00:25:47] I think the other thing with decentralized command, that's important is for everybody to know what the limits are.
[00:25:54] Like how far you can go in direction or another.
[00:25:57] And I know that, you know, like I always trust, you guys are going to do the right thing.
[00:26:01] Well, like you said early on in that work up, you know, leadership at every level.
[00:26:06] You know, even the junior guy, it's his responsibility to keep me in check if something's going wrong.
[00:26:12] Because if I'm doing something stupid, he's like, hey, Tony, what would it?
[00:26:16] Oh, yeah.
[00:26:17] Okay.
[00:26:18] I lost it there for a while.
[00:26:19] You know, like sometimes I'm old.
[00:26:21] Sometimes I lose it once in a while.
[00:26:22] Oh, I'm not going to apologize.
[00:26:24] Yeah.
[00:26:26] Yeah.
[00:26:27] Nice.
[00:26:28] Anything else like decentralized command?
[00:26:31] Well, it's, it's a lot easier if you start right from the beginning trying to make everybody understand decentralized command.
[00:26:40] Because that's the goal.
[00:26:41] It has to be the goal because someone like you, you can't.
[00:26:46] You got to be somewhere else.
[00:26:48] You know, we, we didn't want you on the battlefield with us.
[00:26:51] I wanted you on the battlefield.
[00:26:52] And every time you were, I was like, oh, this is awesome.
[00:26:55] But I mean, I really, really needed you back where you were.
[00:26:58] Of course, you know, and that is, everybody had a, like, wicked high level of confidence.
[00:27:04] Just knowing that you were back there, taking care of watching her back, you know, and never sleeping.
[00:27:09] And just doing like 40 pull ups, sweating and then trying to eat everything in the camp.
[00:27:15] Yeah.
[00:27:18] Yeah.
[00:27:19] It's, it's a thing that you talk about as far as getting everyone to know that and understand that from the beginning is for sure.
[00:27:29] Oh, yeah.
[00:27:30] I mean, everybody's got to know that man, you know, I, I don't want, like, my favorite thing is I go out on an operation with you guys and not do anything.
[00:27:38] Now you just shoot around.
[00:27:39] Just shoot around.
[00:27:40] Just okay.
[00:27:41] I'm just in the train.
[00:27:42] I'll know that's, that's the way it should be because the leaders are leading because life is doing his job.
[00:27:47] He's leading the athletes, the, the breach team is doing their stuff.
[00:27:51] And I'm just like, okay, cool.
[00:27:53] I'm basically an observer, you know, now to a point.
[00:27:56] Yeah.
[00:27:57] All right.
[00:27:58] That was the death of this.
[00:28:01] You.
[00:28:02] But, but that's the way you want it, you know, and, and then when something does happen, you can then handle it.
[00:28:08] You can step in and go, okay, hey, guys, we need to back off over here.
[00:28:11] Okay.
[00:28:12] This, this is going wrong.
[00:28:13] And, and that's the way it should be.
[00:28:14] So if that's your goal, though, is to say, look, I want to go back to the end of the day.
[00:28:16] I want to say, look, I want my leaders to lead.
[00:28:17] I don't want to be doing all their job form.
[00:28:19] When, first of all, that'll make them more confident.
[00:28:21] It'll make them more capable.
[00:28:22] And then when something does happen, then, and they need your assistance, you're not bogged down with something else.
[00:28:28] You can step in and make it happen.
[00:28:29] Right.
[00:28:30] I think it's, uh, take like our aircraft, can't stand.
[00:28:33] That's why combat vets coming back.
[00:28:35] And they talk about decentralized command.
[00:28:38] It's important because if you're just doing the same like army training and an army unit goes over there.
[00:28:43] What are they going to do, go?
[00:28:46] All right, guys.
[00:28:47] Now we're doing decentralized command later.
[00:28:49] You know, you, you know, until that happens, you know, you got it.
[00:28:53] Now they come back.
[00:28:54] Okay.
[00:28:55] We need to train like this.
[00:28:56] Yep.
[00:28:57] Here's our junior officers need to do.
[00:28:58] Here's our antsy.
[00:28:59] Oh, he's need to do.
[00:29:00] Here's our E5's.
[00:29:01] Are he for us?
[00:29:02] You know, our private's.
[00:29:03] There's what they need to do.
[00:29:04] Yep.
[00:29:05] Good.
[00:29:06] All right.
[00:29:07] Next up.
[00:29:08] Uh.
[00:29:10] Take talk about some failures in planning leadership and how you built back up.
[00:29:18] Yeah, we didn't, we had none of that.
[00:29:20] Everything went perfect.
[00:29:22] You know, one of the things that I think of when it, and I guess it's really a failure.
[00:29:29] But we would oftentimes make a decision.
[00:29:33] And then in a day or in a week decide, yeah, that wasn't a good call being over.
[00:29:38] And I think a good example of that is how we kind of task organized and we split up into different groups.
[00:29:43] And we're like, okay, you guys are running this area.
[00:29:45] You guys run this area.
[00:29:46] And then like two weeks later, actually know this area is not good.
[00:29:49] We're going to move the guys.
[00:29:50] We're going to join them back together.
[00:29:51] I always felt like everybody, especially us and the leadership, you know,
[00:29:56] we were all like, okay, cool.
[00:29:57] Yeah, we just made a mistake.
[00:29:58] We just move on.
[00:29:59] Not even a mistake, but you got to change.
[00:30:01] You got to adapt.
[00:30:02] Yeah, you got to.
[00:30:03] You got to morph into something.
[00:30:04] It's like, if you're doing, you know, a lot of our lots.
[00:30:07] Then it's kind of a no-brainer.
[00:30:09] If you go over there and all of a sudden, you know, all you, you're working by yourself,
[00:30:12] boom, boom, doing your mission is great.
[00:30:14] But if you work in split forces and you're training indigenous forces and you do in that,
[00:30:21] you have to have the, you know, you have to,
[00:30:24] and it's not always easy to adjust for because it's like there's a world of different
[00:30:28] swing-out rack and Afghanistan.
[00:30:29] Like a world of difference.
[00:30:31] I mean, it's all kind of the same, but stuff I didn't Iraq and then do an Afghanistan,
[00:30:35] you know, in vice versa, like, whoa, can't do that.
[00:30:38] You know, even, even stuff like the weather, you know,
[00:30:42] talk it, you know, all of a sudden, a snowing.
[00:30:44] You know, and then the terrain, like people think Iraq's all does it.
[00:30:48] I mean, there was some places where they were like in the jungle.
[00:30:51] It's like we're in NAM, you know, or Cambodia, great sakes.
[00:30:55] And like, well, you know, okay, we're going to walk, how many clicks?
[00:30:59] Yeah, well, when you're up to your waist and mud,
[00:31:02] you know, all of a sudden, that timeframes totally off because we didn't,
[00:31:06] you know, made a mistake.
[00:31:07] I didn't really, really, really did terrain.
[00:31:10] You know, and ask about it.
[00:31:12] And she was been up there before and she had, but.
[00:31:15] Yeah.
[00:31:15] But we just adapt.
[00:31:16] No, we can't exactly.
[00:31:17] I think that's a big example.
[00:31:18] It's learned from your mistakes.
[00:31:19] Yeah, when it comes to failure, it's just, okay, what do you do now?
[00:31:23] Yeah.
[00:31:24] Yeah.
[00:31:24] Yeah.
[00:31:25] Okay, let's, let's adapt and move on.
[00:31:27] Yeah.
[00:31:28] All right.
[00:31:29] Um, next one.
[00:31:31] Okay.
[00:31:32] I really want to hear you talk about the battlefield and how it made you feel.
[00:31:40] And the type of situations when the shit hits the fan.
[00:31:46] Well, I kind of questions pretty easy for me.
[00:31:52] Like how the battlefield made me feel.
[00:31:57] I can say, is it made me feel much better than any other place than the battlefield.
[00:32:03] You know what I mean?
[00:32:04] Yeah.
[00:32:05] Because everything makes sense on the battlefield.
[00:32:07] Very, really, going forward or getting going away or defending our position or moving out.
[00:32:13] Yeah.
[00:32:14] Out of that, what else is there?
[00:32:16] Because all of them things, even if you have men down and people wounded, you still got to do them.
[00:32:20] Yeah.
[00:32:21] Well, as I said, you're a thing about this.
[00:32:25] So our optempo was very high, meaning the operational type of little for the go see that don't know what that means.
[00:32:31] It means like how often you're doing work and the optempo was very high.
[00:32:36] And so what sometimes for whatever reason, let's say an operation would get canceled or push back.
[00:32:41] And all of a sudden Tony would have been in camp for like two days.
[00:32:46] Well, the second day, like the first day he'd be, you know, okay, he's coming up with a plan.
[00:32:51] Something else, you know, him and Leigh for trying to figure something out to do, but then the second day, he's just just started to get all frustrated.
[00:32:59] Yeah.
[00:32:59] Place around the tourney.
[00:33:00] What?
[00:33:01] Well, hey, this is just stupid.
[00:33:04] Yeah.
[00:33:04] Oh, it's max.
[00:33:05] We're going to go to like the big base and like, country music, concert or something.
[00:33:10] I'm serious.
[00:33:12] Like, I was like, I've been a stand.
[00:33:13] I flew into a can die.
[00:33:15] Yeah.
[00:33:16] And he's guys like, oh, you just missed.
[00:33:17] I can't remember what country's said.
[00:33:19] They're going to concerts and stuff. I mean, ratchet stuff up in a mountains, you know, like, really?
[00:33:24] Well, these people do in here. Why aren't you a murdering the bad guys?
[00:33:29] God.
[00:33:30] Yeah. So Tony, you would get very frustrated after like two days and then you just come in and I say, okay, do it up here.
[00:33:37] Just go this area and go find something to do and then you go make a plan and you and Leigh for come back.
[00:33:43] All right. We got something we're going to go get it.
[00:33:45] But you got you got to admit though, you know, time off is not such a good thing.
[00:33:50] I mean, a couple days break now and then, but you got to keep the boys busy.
[00:33:55] Yeah. And they start thinking and they start getting, you know, but I mostly did it for me because I just wanted to get after.
[00:34:04] Yeah. There's definitely you can smoke them, but you're right.
[00:34:09] If all the sudden they're sitting around all the time, they, is a, what's that, a body and motion tends to stay at
[00:34:14] motion in a body, it's a sense to stay at rest. So if you start lagging and all of a sudden you're going to go do an
[00:34:19] up and everyone's kind of resistance. There's not not not verbal resistance just just like I'll shrug the
[00:34:25] shoulders. Just like a resistance of some unseen resistance in the world that want you to slow down.
[00:34:32] But when the shit hits the fan, you know, it's, it's strange because it makes me, like,
[00:34:42] a little bit like a little calmer, I think. I mean, not always. I had the first, first time I
[00:34:48] reached out. I was a little jittery, a little bit. But, you know, oh my God, what's going on?
[00:34:53] Actually, I knew what it was. You know, it's not like, oh, what's that? Actually, I actually remember you were
[00:34:59] briefing some of the guys when we were back and you were like, um, you were like, hey, you know what?
[00:35:08] I'm training. When I, when we went through training, we were getting ready to go to Ramadi. We didn't work on on this right here.
[00:35:14] Oh my God, what's happening? Yeah, there's this too. Oh, this is going to be cool. Yeah, it's all that bad stuff.
[00:35:23] Then there's screaming, yelling, diving into shit shooting and killing.
[00:35:28] But, you know, it's kind of, it is fun.
[00:35:31] Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I think the thing I've said on here before is that the battlefield and all these situations, they just give you this clear focus and
[00:35:42] life that nothing else gives you. No, well, nothing that I've found.
[00:35:47] Me, this is like, oh, we're going to kill people are going to get killed ourselves.
[00:35:53] That's everything in the world. Right. That's what it comes matters. No, that's it. Just like sitting and camp watching TV.
[00:35:59] That doesn't matter. No, okay. You got your ass to you. Okay, you good. You know, all right. No, let's go.
[00:36:09] All right. Next one, not to take away from the seriousness of what you two have achieved in the seals, but I would like Tony to tell a funny story about Jaco.
[00:36:23] And the reason I put this one in here, of course, I don't like to hear any humor or any laughter in the world.
[00:36:29] But there was a bunch of people that said this. So anyways, I figured you might have a story.
[00:36:36] I got like seriously like a million, like a million. I mean, that story about you and your roommate, like, you're, you're like,
[00:36:49] you guys live together in Coronado. Yeah. You know, I'm talking to you with the big fella. Yeah. You're like, those over there patty in one night.
[00:36:57] We're getting gonged up. And you're like, you know what our bill was from Domino's.
[00:37:02] It's like $2,500. That's a lot of fun.
[00:37:07] That was so funny. That's a wicked good patty, though. Yeah, we did have some pretty good money.
[00:37:12] And then one time we're out at Nylon. It's like two o'clock in the morning. And the guys are, you know, they're, we call that after you're done.
[00:37:23] Do the work on the vehicles post post off of vehicles and they're all busy doing stuff.
[00:37:30] And I mean, I'd help out if I had to, but I mean, it's not my job. So, and they boys know what to do. Jeremy had him.
[00:37:38] Great, I'll be home. And we're sitting there and me and life and maybe one of the other jails.
[00:37:45] We're shooting this year about something. I mean, I had to do a work because what else is there?
[00:37:51] And life was talking and there's quiet kind of, and you got your eye on one of the humvies and all the sudden you just out of nowhere.
[00:37:59] You just kicked a dirt and you go, God, do it!
[00:38:02] You're like, shaking your head and clutching your face and like, the fuck you talking about.
[00:38:09] And he just like, look, it means smile and walk away.
[00:38:12] What? What? What is wrong with you? Still not a figure that I was wrong with you guys.
[00:38:18] I know what I remember. You just went, God damn it.
[00:38:22] No, I was actually getting frustrated that there was a chance we might not go to Iraq.
[00:38:28] Like I was so scared and horrified of that.
[00:38:36] You know, and I was just trying to control it, but then it just kind of slipped out.
[00:38:40] And here's another quick one about Jaco.
[00:38:43] And my, I don't know, we were there a couple of weeks in Ramadine.
[00:38:48] We're just falling into a group operating in one night, a losing his office because it's like,
[00:38:54] couldn't sleep or whatever.
[00:38:57] And he's like, look at that, and you show me.
[00:39:00] He shows me the computer. He goes, this is from my wife.
[00:39:05] Are you okay? You've been gone three weeks and we haven't heard anything from you.
[00:39:11] I'm like, calm, you better even tell your wife, she should get a fly over a kill.
[00:39:18] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I talk about detachment a lot.
[00:39:22] And sometimes, you know, like I said, sometimes you get over there and you got all that shit going on and nothing else in the world matters.
[00:39:31] I didn't have anything going on back here, and then mattered to me at all.
[00:39:37] Sorry, uh, to my wife there for not see.
[00:39:41] I'm sure she can remember that.
[00:39:43] Anyway, you did though.
[00:39:45] You're like, okay, I got it.
[00:39:47] Yeah.
[00:39:48] All right.
[00:39:50] Here's one. What made you realize one of your guys was really good to go or was not up to standard,
[00:39:56] not necessarily big things, but micro actions or decisions that set something off in your mind?
[00:40:03] Well, I had a lot of guys work on them. You know,
[00:40:06] and I mean, I really think that, you know, all my brothers and the teams,
[00:40:11] everyone was good to go. Even the guys I didn't get along with, I'd still get my wife form in a second.
[00:40:17] It does matter, but I want to think that sticks out to me. It was bigdles when I was Ryan Job.
[00:40:24] You know, I, I don't, I guess I could have been more like a nice whatever, but I'm like,
[00:40:32] man, you look like you're fucking fat. You better get in fucking shape, but I'm going to fucking kill you.
[00:40:38] I'm not going to like, write you up. I don't even know how to do that.
[00:40:41] I'm going to, I'm going to just physically kill you. And man, you know, I don't even know if he was in good shape or not,
[00:40:48] because some people you can't tell. Yeah. They like, look at that guy and then he just knocks it out.
[00:40:52] That people that hired marshmallow. Yeah. And man, that kid did.
[00:40:56] I mean, he really, really did. And like, all of a sudden, I'm like,
[00:41:00] John, well, I didn't say that. I was like, hmm, I, you know, so that was like,
[00:41:05] yeah, that was like my praise. Yeah. Yeah, whatever. You'd hide the praise from the next one.
[00:41:11] On the next thing. Yeah. But I mean, that was really good.
[00:41:15] You know, remember one of my guys lost a piece of equipment one time.
[00:41:23] You know, I was kind of upset with them, but it just made me realize that, you know,
[00:41:30] if we're making a mistake, maybe it's not this guy's fault, maybe it's my fault, maybe it's everyone's fault as a team.
[00:41:36] Because it's the day, it's all of us. So maybe what I take a day or two of.
[00:41:42] You know, and that kind of helped, you know, we handled it.
[00:41:46] I mean, and another one of my guys, he was Christmas and he left a piece of equipment open or didn't lock something.
[00:41:55] I mean, it wasn't a big deal. I could have corrected it right there.
[00:41:58] But the guys are just taking off on Christmas leave.
[00:42:01] And I was dead nowhere to go. So I was drinking beers in the team area.
[00:42:05] And I just walked around checking shit out and sure enough.
[00:42:09] So I called the guy and he was like, three or four hundred miles into his drive to a western state for Christmas.
[00:42:16] I'm like, he goes, oh, I'm sorry. I'm like, yeah, no problem.
[00:42:19] All right. So turn around now and I'll be waiting for you.
[00:42:23] It was dead silence on the phone. He's like, what? Yeah.
[00:42:28] Yeah. So he drove all the way back.
[00:42:32] I know a stand there. It was like, four in the morning now.
[00:42:35] And I was like, it was pretty licked up by then.
[00:42:38] And just few men, but he's like, I'm sorry.
[00:42:42] We won't be Western. Yep. Okay. Have a good leave.
[00:42:45] And I'm sure I'm positive. He never did that again.
[00:42:49] That'll do it. Yeah. It was kind of a dank move I guess, but you know, I figured it was a thing to do.
[00:42:56] He who suffers remembers. Yeah.
[00:43:01] Yeah. It's the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the.
[00:43:07] The the the the. When you're just working with guys all the time.
[00:43:10] You definitely start to pick up.
[00:43:12] Things and you can indicate. Okay. Yeah. This guy's this guy's stepping up.
[00:43:16] You know that's what I always noticed when things are going to go.
[00:43:18] And things are going sideways like in a training operation and you see a guy that's starting to step up.
[00:43:23] You know that was always a good sign absolutely. You know, so like he's going to handle.
[00:43:27] It's like that's when you train decentralized command. That's what you got to let guys make mistakes and screw things up because you know the last you know more you're sweating training unless you bleed more.
[00:43:37] No doubt about that one.
[00:43:39] All right.
[00:43:41] Next one.
[00:43:43] Tony were their situations while in Iraq when you disagreed with a leadership decision made by the or jaco.
[00:43:51] If so. How did you express your disapproval and were you successful in getting your point across.
[00:43:59] Most of the time 99% of the time.
[00:44:02] No, I did not.
[00:44:04] There was one big one that I really disagree with you guys on one.
[00:44:09] I was like, well, I'm going to be a little bit more focused on my request to keep the entire troop there for another year.
[00:44:14] You said you couldn't and I tried why not.
[00:44:17] And you're like, we can't and I'm like, why?
[00:44:19] Well, and I was really, really, really angry about that.
[00:44:22] But yeah, I think I think this this question here is is from someone that's thinking that doesn't really understand how we're working.
[00:44:32] You know, in the bottom line is I'm not coming down and going,
[00:44:35] I'm not coming down and going down and going down and going down and going down and going down and going down and going down.
[00:44:40] All right, men. This is what I want you to do now.
[00:44:42] No, we would just form our own operations.
[00:44:44] We're all kind of bouncing ideas off each other.
[00:44:45] The best idea rises to the top.
[00:44:47] I don't care who it came from.
[00:44:48] I don't care if it came from me, Tony from one of the new guys.
[00:44:51] It doesn't matter to me where the idea comes from or where the plan comes from.
[00:44:54] I want the best idea to rise the top.
[00:44:57] That's one of the best things about our troop was there was no one that was like trying to drive their own personal way.
[00:45:03] I didn't care. I literally didn't care.
[00:45:06] And I think part of it is like you and me just had planned so many operations.
[00:45:10] It just, you know, we just didn't care.
[00:45:12] It's like, oh, that's cool. You'd be, yeah.
[00:45:14] That sounds like a good plan. You know, maybe make this adjustment, maybe make that adjustment other than that.
[00:45:19] Cool. Let's execute it.
[00:45:20] So I think that's a little bit different than then what people would envision as like I was the commander.
[00:45:30] Or because we're just not operating like that. Now this is why I've said to people very flat, even though there's even though the the military and the seal teams and there's definitely a higher archery or a little structure.
[00:45:42] I mean, that's the way it's organized. There's the troops and then there's you know leading petty officers and then there's a platoon chief and there's a platoon commander.
[00:45:50] Then there's a troop commander or task unit commander and there's a team commander.
[00:45:55] So there's a structure there.
[00:45:57] But the the as far as how we actually come to plan and stuff like that.
[00:46:02] There's yeah, I mean some guidance, but we're working as a team to do that and that's what and I would say it's not always like that.
[00:46:10] In fact, I know it's not always like that because I saw other platoons and other troops act and do different ways.
[00:46:15] But we did operations that came from our commanding officer.
[00:46:19] Yeah, it came all the way down.
[00:46:21] Yep.
[00:46:22] And some of them were wicked good.
[00:46:24] Except, they'd give the maybe the mission objective, but they wouldn't be telling us like going here.
[00:46:29] No, but then we've never that's not the way it works.
[00:46:32] So I think that I mean the situations when you disagree with me was probably in one hand you could say never in another hand you could say a million times.
[00:46:41] Yeah, you're like, no man, we shouldn't do that and I be like, oh, why not? Oh, we should put the vehicles in there. Oh, okay. Yeah, that's a good point.
[00:46:46] Yeah, that's that's how we voiced it by saying, oh, yeah, let's do that. So I'm like, oh, okay.
[00:46:50] Yeah, that's good. Yeah, yeah, because no big big big what's that? Like a big soap opera leadership.
[00:46:58] No, not out of nothing that never happened.
[00:47:02] And so if you don't have that kind of relationship with people number one, is it your own ego that's getting involved?
[00:47:08] Because that's probably that's a good indicator if you're like, well, you know, my subordinates just don't understand.
[00:47:16] Really, really. Why not? Okay, why not? Maybe suck as a leader then, just do it like good.
[00:47:22] You know, maybe if you did better, they wouldn't understand the mission.
[00:47:28] So pretty flat organization we had at least from a planning perspective. Yes, sir.
[00:47:36] All right. If you had to pick one driving characteristic that separates a dominant alpha team guy from everyone else. What in the teams?
[00:47:46] What is it? Well, if guys in the team, as you got to know this, but a lot of people out there don't that like pretty much everyone's an alpha male.
[00:47:56] You know, it's like nobody gives up the argument ever.
[00:48:02] You know, usually it's, you know, wrestling or fighting and it always works itself out, but I think one thing we're talking about is gimmicks.
[00:48:12] Like a lot of people in the teams, I call it a gimmick. Everybody's good at everything pretty much and does the job.
[00:48:20] But some people like just insane skydivers, some guys are just phenomenal rock climbers, some guys are just like swimming, sons of guns, you know,
[00:48:30] or runners and wrestlers and fistfighters and there's, you know, some people just in the guns. I mean that's their passion.
[00:48:38] Some people are just phenomenal divers, you know, and I was always pretty good at everything, but not great.
[00:48:46] You know, I couldn't outrun everybody. I couldn't outfight everybody. I couldn't out swim everybody. I couldn't out shoot everybody.
[00:48:54] And I just, I think mine was like tactics and just being as hard as I could. And I, I, I made it look easy, but it was and the specials I got older.
[00:49:06] It's no fun being a team guy when you're 44, you know, and you get up and you're like,
[00:49:12] I'm like, I better retire. I'm not done with all this. But yeah, if that kind of makes sense.
[00:49:24] Yeah, if the other funny thing about that is, because in the teams, no team guy ever wants to give any credit to a different team guy.
[00:49:32] So if someone was like, hey, you know, that guy's a really good shot and then someone immediately, but you know, you ever, you don't know how to swim though.
[00:49:38] Yeah, we used to talk about it. Always just like someone's always really, you know, one's good at everything.
[00:49:44] Did you work? You know, did you? And if they can't take a something out, they'll be like,
[00:49:48] whew, whatever, fuck that guy.
[00:49:52] Just walk away. Hey, what, what are you going?
[00:49:56] Yeah, yeah. Yeah.
[00:49:58] You know, one thing I'll say that is pretty cool. And I already brought this up. Like one of the things that that
[00:50:04] separate, like what when I worked with you that first time, and I saw you like being humble,
[00:50:08] I was like, man, that's that to me is the characteristic that you can tell the guy is not just a good team guy,
[00:50:14] but an awesome team guy when he's humble about what's going on. And when I was putting guys through training,
[00:50:18] and I know you saw this too. The guys that would come through training that thought they were all badass and thought they couldn't do anything wrong.
[00:50:24] They were always bad. Like they never did a good job. Right.
[00:50:27] And then the guys that were say, hey, man, I'm looking forward to training. I know we need to go and need to get tuned up and let me,
[00:50:35] let me don't know what I can do better. Those guys were taking notes. They always kicked ass. They always did a good job.
[00:50:39] Yeah. So that being humble is being humble too is.
[00:50:45] I read a bunch of afteraction reports.
[00:50:49] You know, and my tour is over there about different situations, different things. And every time they were well written by some guys,
[00:50:55] but you'll always carry this. You'll always do this. Never do this. Always do that.
[00:51:01] And I kind of took that in a count when I wrote a serious afteraction report for that deployment.
[00:51:07] I wish you would have saved it too. It was just pretty good.
[00:51:11] Yeah. First and foremost, this is what worked for us in these months, this environment, this temperature with this mission set,
[00:51:19] and what we had to do. Don't use this as, oh, he said that. So I'm going to do it every time.
[00:51:24] No, I mean, using this a guy, everything that teams is a toolbox.
[00:51:28] You pick it out when you need it and you use it and you put it back away.
[00:51:32] And if it sits in there for 500 years, it's still worth having because the timing pull it out,
[00:51:38] you're going to really need it.
[00:51:40] Yep. Yep.
[00:51:42] Next one.
[00:51:44] In the teams, what were the biggest reputation builders or killers?
[00:51:52] And for those of you who don't know, in the teams, and I guess it's the same anywhere, but it definitely is true in the teams.
[00:52:00] Man, your reputation is everything. It's everything.
[00:52:04] And people know who you are. They know if you do something stupid and like, really stupid in the teams.
[00:52:10] Everybody knows that. Everybody knows it forever.
[00:52:14] Like if you have an accidental discharge,
[00:52:16] with meaning meaning, if you shoot your gun when you weren't supposed to, and there may be some scenarios where there's a little bit of leeway on that.
[00:52:26] But if you just do it, no dumb situation, everybody's going to know about it forever.
[00:52:30] Yeah.
[00:52:30] And that's just like you might as well just get a tattoo on your forearm that says, hey, I had an AD on this day.
[00:52:34] Yeah.
[00:52:34] If you do something stupid, you know, something that gets you in trouble like just dumb.
[00:52:41] Yeah, you're probably going to just everyone's going to know about it.
[00:52:44] They're always going to think about it. If you get fired from a position, and you happen to not get kicked out of the teams,
[00:52:52] Everybody's going to know about it.
[00:52:54] Everybody knows it'll just get out.
[00:52:55] Yeah.
[00:52:56] Yeah.
[00:52:56] It's it's it's a tough community when it comes to reputation.
[00:52:59] It's a really, it's wicked brutal.
[00:53:03] Yeah.
[00:53:04] You know, every, it's like a small town.
[00:53:06] Yeah.
[00:53:07] Everybody knows everything. Even though you're on other coasts.
[00:53:10] Yeah. I mean, I've done a lot of stupid shit in my career.
[00:53:14] And I was a jerk off and dumb, dumb stuff and then an idiot.
[00:53:18] Everybody knows all that. Yeah.
[00:53:20] Yeah.
[00:53:20] You know, most of the stuff that you did, fortunately, is kind of is like on the okay side.
[00:53:30] Yeah.
[00:53:30] I don't know how to explain this.
[00:53:32] Oh, yeah.
[00:53:33] It's only got drunk and got invited this thing.
[00:53:35] Yeah.
[00:53:35] Yeah.
[00:53:36] It's almost, you know,
[00:53:37] back to cool and the big to do with uniforms and stuff.
[00:53:40] Yeah.
[00:53:41] Wouldn't have like to do with like the things that you kind of can't do or you can't get away with.
[00:53:45] Or it'll affect your reputation and bad way wouldn't have more to do with how good of a team that you are.
[00:53:50] You're right.
[00:53:51] You're just, you're just called right.
[00:53:52] You know what it has to do with.
[00:53:54] Is it something that hit that helped or is it something that is operational or not?
[00:53:59] Yeah.
[00:53:59] Yeah.
[00:53:59] So it's something that's operational.
[00:54:01] Everybody knows it.
[00:54:02] You know, like if you, I mean, even like you'll hear about a guy that gets lost in buzz in and you or like gets lost going through the initial training.
[00:54:13] But when he got to the team, he gets on land on land navigation and gets lost and has to get rescued.
[00:54:18] Bro, that's just going to stick with you forever.
[00:54:23] Like, like I remember, you know, I remember getting like three briefs about some guy that I was getting in a platoon about where this guy got lost.
[00:54:31] I was stupid.
[00:54:32] It was, you know, there was a highway.
[00:54:33] He could have walked the highway.
[00:54:34] You could hear the cars.
[00:54:35] Everyone just made a spectacle out of this kid.
[00:54:37] And I mean, the kid got out because eventually he got me.
[00:54:39] I just get out of this.
[00:54:40] This is horrible.
[00:54:41] Yeah.
[00:54:41] I'm going to do things I can't.
[00:54:42] And so yeah.
[00:54:43] So this question is actually is actually a decent question because that definitely does play a big thing.
[00:54:50] So for me, and it's the basis for a lot of nicknames on the team.
[00:54:54] True.
[00:54:55] True.
[00:54:56] True.
[00:54:57] Yeah.
[00:54:58] If you do something that's excessively stupid or just a lot of things.
[00:55:00] Or just have bad luck.
[00:55:02] Like one of my favorite ones is Bush.
[00:55:04] You know, Bush.
[00:55:05] A cuss.
[00:55:06] Yeah.
[00:55:07] But he like was parachuting and when he first got to the team, this is a new guy and in his parachute, he landed in, uh, in, uh, what kind of bush was I?
[00:55:14] Some kind of a bush with thorns and what.
[00:55:16] Yeah.
[00:55:17] Parish you got all tangled up and he got stuck in there.
[00:55:20] The guys.
[00:55:21] That's the name.
[00:55:22] He's great too.
[00:55:23] He's an awesome guy.
[00:55:24] Yeah.
[00:55:25] Bush.
[00:55:26] There's the blue other things.
[00:55:27] There's team guys where you don't even know what the real name was.
[00:55:29] Actually, I was kind of like that.
[00:55:31] Nobody knew what my actual name was.
[00:55:33] My was just jacco and that was just, was my civilian nickname.
[00:55:36] My parents gave me.
[00:55:37] But the funniest was there was a guy and I'll just tell the story.
[00:55:41] There was a guy and you know him.
[00:55:43] Cuss I do.
[00:55:44] But, uh, but anyways, his name was Al.
[00:55:48] And I was always like, you know, I knew it was Al.
[00:55:53] And then he was a heavy weapons instructor.
[00:55:55] So we called him big Al and then we called him big Al 50 cow.
[00:55:58] Yeah.
[00:55:59] And it was Al 50 cow.
[00:56:00] I knew big Al 50 cow for like eight years, right?
[00:56:03] And one day, I'm like, you know, we're talking and I would do some.
[00:56:07] We're going on a trepours.
[00:56:08] I knew his name because I was in a couple of put to it.
[00:56:10] Yeah, I did paperwork.
[00:56:11] Yeah.
[00:56:12] So I finally get to pay it.
[00:56:14] I found to get to paperwork with this guy was also a real quiet guy.
[00:56:17] Me real professional real quiet.
[00:56:18] Yeah.
[00:56:19] He's all.
[00:56:20] He didn't say much.
[00:56:21] And, uh, one day, I'm doing the paperwork and I go, hey man, I'm like, look at the list of people.
[00:56:24] It's coming.
[00:56:25] I go, hey man, I thought you're going on this trip with us.
[00:56:26] And he's like, he's like, yeah, yeah, I'm going.
[00:56:28] And I go, oh, you're not on the manifest here.
[00:56:30] And he goes, no, and he comes over he points out his name.
[00:56:32] And his name is Keith.
[00:56:34] Yeah.
[00:56:35] And I go, I go, I go, I go, I go, bro.
[00:56:37] I go, well, your name is Keith.
[00:56:39] I go, you own when it, that's a mistake.
[00:56:40] You don't want me to get a change.
[00:56:41] He goes, no, no, that's my name.
[00:56:43] And I go, well, I thought your name was Al.
[00:56:45] I go, is Al your middle name.
[00:56:46] And he goes, he goes, no, Al's not my name at all.
[00:56:50] And I go, I go, whoa, whoa, what do you mean?
[00:56:53] Why does every single person call you Al?
[00:56:56] And he goes, well, he goes, well, in my first platoon.
[00:57:00] Well, I was out doing something that was night.
[00:57:03] And I was, I guess I was looking around and moving my head a lot like an owl.
[00:57:08] And so the guy started calling me owl.
[00:57:11] And then over the next platoon, it changed from owl that just moved into owl.
[00:57:16] And then Al, and then his name was Al.
[00:57:18] And I literally would've told you this guy's name was Al.
[00:57:21] And he never corrected, he just said, you know, whatever.
[00:57:24] You call me Al, that's close enough.
[00:57:26] So that'd be F or somebody named Na Na.
[00:57:29] So that's Big Al 50 Cal.
[00:57:34] But you know what?
[00:57:36] His reputation was, because the question about reputation.
[00:57:39] His reputation was awesome, because he was solid.
[00:57:41] He was a form of a ring, one of it.
[00:57:44] Uh, I was he.
[00:57:46] No, that was 295.
[00:57:48] Okay, 295 was in the koa.
[00:57:51] But, you know, solid reputation.
[00:57:53] So for me, and I guess, I mean, it's, it's what you do operationally.
[00:57:57] Yeah.
[00:57:58] Is what build your reputation.
[00:57:59] And if you're a good shooter, if you're not, you know, shoot, shoot like an idiot.
[00:58:05] Um, not, you know, if you can patrol well, if you have good field craft, all those things.
[00:58:10] The real things, right?
[00:58:11] Right.
[00:58:12] It's kind of cool.
[00:58:13] That's what's kind of cool.
[00:58:14] That's one thing that's in the teams.
[00:58:15] That's that's hard for them to erase.
[00:58:17] Is what your real reputation as a real comber player has an operator team guy.
[00:58:23] That's the thing that all these people that, that kind of come and go in the teams,
[00:58:28] and it's, it's maybe it's not, they're not real real team guys.
[00:58:32] You can't fake that, you know.
[00:58:35] And when guys get some guys get shot, bone up, you know, wounded, and some can't operate anymore.
[00:58:41] It's not like we throw them to the wolves.
[00:58:43] They want to stand the teams.
[00:58:44] We keep them to take care of them.
[00:58:46] And so, and become phenomenal and struck this and just go on and do great things.
[00:58:51] Yeah, they were going to keep, if Ryan Job would have won a stay, they were going to keep them.
[00:58:56] A cuss.
[00:58:57] Yeah.
[00:58:58] Oh, you're blind.
[00:58:59] Cool.
[00:59:00] Yeah, so work for great.
[00:59:01] You can lead BT.
[00:59:02] Doesn't mean you can't listen to me when I say go to this.
[00:59:04] Yeah.
[00:59:06] And then contrary to that, obviously the killers are when you, when you screw up stuff,
[00:59:13] operation, the other thing is if you're an arrogant, egotistical guy, you'd be everyone's going to hate you.
[00:59:18] That's, yeah.
[00:59:19] And you ain't going to last long.
[00:59:20] Because if you're, because there's some guys that are great, skill wise, they're great operators, but they're horrible to work with.
[00:59:26] They're arrogant.
[00:59:27] They don't listen to anybody.
[00:59:29] They're not humble.
[00:59:30] And those guys will have a bad reputation too.
[00:59:32] They got blindes on.
[00:59:33] They can't open the, you know, and you got to, if you want to evolve at all,
[00:59:38] they'll stay alive, you know.
[00:59:40] Nope.
[00:59:41] Yep.
[00:59:42] Alright.
[00:59:43] Next one.
[00:59:44] What makes a great NCO in, and philosophy, not the military.
[00:59:49] An NCO is a non-commissioned officer.
[00:59:51] The military is broken into two basic, basic pathways of advancement and of existence.
[00:59:59] There's officers who are like the managers and the leaders.
[01:00:03] And then there's the enlisted guys, which are the grunts, but then as they get promoted through the ranks, you eventually become.
[01:00:08] What's called the senior enlisted advisor, and if you don't, if you think about Hollywood movies, the way they always categorize these two is you've got the young,
[01:00:19] junior officer, fresh in Vietnam, fresh out of the academy.
[01:00:23] And then you got the salty old gunnery sergeant.
[01:00:26] That's the two.
[01:00:27] That's the two.
[01:00:28] So the NCO is the, is the enlisted side of that.
[01:00:31] And NCOs, they always say is like the backbone of the, of the Marine Corps, the NCO, the chief.
[01:00:37] The, the chiefs run the seal teams is the, is the statement, right?
[01:00:40] Because the chiefs, the guys that, chiefs, the guys that will be at a seal team,
[01:00:44] especially in the old days, being a seal team for eight years.
[01:00:47] So you are the continuity and you get raised.
[01:00:50] So the question is, what makes a great NCO and who is or was the best NCO you know?
[01:00:58] Well, for me, what makes a great NCO or chief is,
[01:01:03] I don't think you can just do it.
[01:01:06] I think it's, uh, I'm not saying I'm a great NCO,
[01:01:11] but I did have great NCOs who taught me a lot.
[01:01:15] And they brought me up and they put their foot in square in my rectum when I needed it.
[01:01:22] And they also took their time to explain things to me when they could see in my eyes.
[01:01:28] I was nodding my head, yes, but I was really, I didn't grasp it.
[01:01:32] I was like, I'm going to do it this way and they would work around my for lack of better word
[01:01:37] learning disabilities.
[01:01:39] Because I mean some of the stuff you can't, you know, when you're a new guy,
[01:01:42] you're just like, you're cheap or a cheap and they're like, no dummy relax.
[01:01:47] Here's like you're doing.
[01:01:48] And that leadership style went a long way with me and I never forgot it.
[01:01:54] You know, who's the best NCO you've had or ever known?
[01:01:59] Man, there's so many guys that it's not one.
[01:02:03] I can't say their names because, you know, it's not clear, I mean,
[01:02:07] but that's a good thing about nicknames sometimes.
[01:02:10] You know, I think, I'll have to say overall, Mr. Fak was probably the best one I ever had.
[01:02:19] And he was just an old school, hard-ass son of a bitch.
[01:02:25] But he was fair as all hell. He was fair and you always knew where you stood with him.
[01:02:31] And I love that. That's what I tried to do later on.
[01:02:35] Like, I didn't want to go hot, hot, hot, hot and then totally taken out the direction
[01:02:41] and just be like, easy on the guy. So they'd like me, you know, I don't care.
[01:02:45] And I thought that was much easier in a better way because mission men is how you should look at things.
[01:02:52] But the mission first and take care of your men.
[01:02:55] But sometimes if you have to sacrifice men and you got to like, okay, you got to die for this mission.
[01:03:01] All right, Roger that.
[01:03:02] I don't think that's the way the military is. That's what you get paid for.
[01:03:05] But yeah, Mr. Fak was probably the best one for me.
[01:03:10] Yeah, so that's another, when I talked about you and me coming up in the teams and hanging out
[01:03:17] the same people and being the same, but we were going to put them together. But we did have the same guys.
[01:03:23] Yeah, right.
[01:03:24] Yeah, right.
[01:03:25] The same guys raised as both. And for sure, Mr. Fak as you, you are calling him was a huge influence on me.
[01:03:34] I'm a huge influence on me.
[01:03:36] Right.
[01:03:38] Everything I was or am, well, everything I was in the teams like as far as being professional.
[01:03:44] And like, hey, we're going to, that all was taken from Fak. All of it was taken from him.
[01:03:49] 100% material.
[01:03:51] And the seriousness that he put towards the job, like the gravity that he put towards the job and the gravity
[01:04:00] to put towards the operational stuff that we just talked about.
[01:04:03] As far as, you know, the things that we said makes up your reputation, that's what he cared about.
[01:04:09] Above anything else, that's what he cared about.
[01:04:12] And so for sure, working for him. And that's, that's again. That's why when we actually started working to, and I'm just realizing this right now.
[01:04:19] I mean, I guess I made sense of it before, but when we started working together, that's why we had the same thoughts and things.
[01:04:25] Right. Everything was, like, of course, we're going to do that.
[01:04:27] It's like when we're bounding back one time somewhere in Iraq and just we didn't even have to say anything.
[01:04:32] Each other would just like cover and move.
[01:04:35] Go, go, go, go.
[01:04:37] But one thing real quick about it, NCO, one of the best I ever had, another seed daddy of mine, and I can say his name because
[01:04:43] Rest in peace, Tim Farrell. Tim Farrell was a big, big influence on my life.
[01:04:49] He was a wicked good operator.
[01:04:52] I can't, I don't know anybody. He was a tougher guy in the teams.
[01:04:55] He's just a hide, hidden guy, and just, he's a really good dude, man. Really good guy.
[01:05:01] And he was awesome at everything. Everything. Everything.
[01:05:05] Yeah, he was an awesome, everything he did.
[01:05:09] He beats you at everything. He would beat guys in the slums and he wasn't wearing fins and they were,
[01:05:14] and he was just incredible athlete.
[01:05:16] Yeah, and incredible athlete.
[01:05:18] And by the way, he was, he would, he's not like a guy that was like, well, you know, I didn't get my workout in today.
[01:05:23] So I don't know.
[01:05:24] No, no, he's not like a guy that was like, well, you know, I didn't get my workout in today.
[01:05:27] So I don't know.
[01:05:28] No, he's not like a guy.
[01:05:29] He was like, oh, just, just get after just every year.
[01:05:31] Yeah, yeah, Tim Farrell, first year was a great guy.
[01:05:36] What a frog man he was. He certainly was.
[01:05:40] All right.
[01:05:43] Anything about accuracy of fire in combat versus volume of fire.
[01:05:49] And I'll tell you the reason I left this one in here, Tony is a lot of soldiers and marines and team guys that I hear from all the time.
[01:05:57] And they always are listening. And not only that at this point, but I hate to say it, but in America, our our police forces need to start thinking about this kind of stuff because there's bad stuff happen America where guys are getting in legit.
[01:06:12] Yeah, urban warfare.
[01:06:14] And so talking about the accuracy of fire versus the volume of fire.
[01:06:19] Well, you know, it's a double, it's a flip of the coin on depends on the situation, but I can tell you the number of times I fired.
[01:06:26] I fired a rifle and a salt rifle, a F-14 and all that, you know, a scar on full auto is big friggin goose egg.
[01:06:39] You know, I can't think of one situation, if somebody said, okay, Tony, you're going to this room alone and this eight guys point and guns at you.
[01:06:46] Well, okay, Rogers that, but you know, but sometimes, you know, volume of fire gets heads down if you're in the street.
[01:06:54] You got to get that fire, you're going to try to gain fire superiority.
[01:06:58] And if you don't have that, you ain't really moving. And so at that point, you're not doing all the things you were taught breathing.
[01:07:06] You're just getting led down in that direction.
[01:07:09] So, cover your ass. Well, your buddies ass. So, you can move and they can move.
[01:07:16] But accuracy of fire and combat, you know, in good situations, if you're under fire and you're putting lead down range.
[01:07:23] So, you can move. It's real nice to have a supporting element in an elevated position.
[01:07:28] There are the ones combining these two.
[01:07:31] And this is a pretty good example. It's pretty nice knowing about four blocks from you.
[01:07:36] You got Chris Kyle up there talking you on the radio.
[01:07:40] Hello, no!
[01:07:42] You see, guy fall, I like the window with a gun, you're like, thanks brother.
[01:07:47] You're pretty confident walking down the street at that point. So, yeah.
[01:07:54] The other thing is, I mean, we always have massive firepower with Mark 48, Mark 46 is laid down.
[01:08:03] The heavy volumes of fire. And that's the same thing Roger Hayden was saying in here the other day.
[01:08:09] He was another, you know, burst that mentor, you and me growing up in the teams. And, but he said that they had four, 60s in their 14 man puts in like two stoners.
[01:08:22] So he's no, four, 60s and five stoners.
[01:08:27] That's what he said that was what they carried.
[01:08:30] Yeah, so eight, you know what's interesting too, like we talked about points, you know, but the guys like all of our guys are AW gunners put sights put the eight cogs on there on there.
[01:08:44] Which was, yeah, partially for PID so they could tell who they're shooting at, but could see further, but also man accuracy.
[01:08:51] Yeah, it's a four power scope.
[01:08:53] And that night I don't matter because you're using an app to the other laser and you're on nods anyway. So, and then one last thing is that you know again now we're talking to aimed at police officers, but also also guys in combat, you don't have unlimited ammunition.
[01:09:11] So you got to think about that too.
[01:09:13] Me and my brother just had this conversation.
[01:09:16] You know, he's like, well, I wish I could, you know, conceal weapon carry, you know, it's got, say I got my revolver and he's got like a six 86 stainless P or plus, you know, seven shot, 357.
[01:09:31] I wonder where he, he wanted to revolver, I told him.
[01:09:35] Yeah, that's a good thing.
[01:09:37] But he's like, you know, should I, what I'm conceal carry should carry some speed loaders and like, well, John, is that always convenient? No, well, you know what, you're not getting in a gunfight, you're not.
[01:09:51] If you get in somebody's shooting, you either shoot him or you put down fire and you run, it's not your fight.
[01:09:58] You're just jacking your car or whatever and they pull gun, you shoot him, yes, but you know, it's a night club shooting or something. You blasting your way out of there.
[01:10:08] And that's it. You're not going to sit there and you don't have unlimited ammo, right?
[01:10:12] And even in the teams, we didn't, that wasn't my biggest fear.
[01:10:15] I would hate to die of lack of shooting back. And that would just suck.
[01:10:19] You know, we never really did run out. We got low.
[01:10:23] A few times, but never really run out. That's scary. That's why we kind of trained on, you know, we did a lot of that were try to set a standard you can't, you know, if you got a shoot, you shoot.
[01:10:35] If you run out, then you go to your pistol, if you run out of that and you go to your grenades, whatever, and then you just beat the F.
[01:10:41] But, but we trained, you know, if you're sustained fire flights, like M4 gunners, you know, after 4 mags, you're going to start slowing down.
[01:10:51] So I'm thinking about round-comers, conservation. Same thing with the machine gunners.
[01:10:54] Start slowing your rates fired down.
[01:10:56] Initial bursts, initial ballies, and then go down and like, you know, shorter bursts, more time looking at what you've seen.
[01:11:03] Because if you're out there hanging with your ass hanging, you know, and you've got no rounds, then guess what?
[01:11:08] It's run time. And nobody wants to run. That's just terrible.
[01:11:17] Awesome. All right.
[01:11:19] Uh, next one,
[01:11:23] What is Tony's perspective as an enlisted and older guy serving quotes under you as a younger officer?
[01:11:33] So I don't know if this person actually understands it. We're about the same age and it had been in the teams about the same time.
[01:11:38] Right.
[01:11:39] And we were more brothers than, like, anything else.
[01:11:44] And then, uh, what was it like, what would you like to work for compared to other guys you were under?
[01:11:51] Well, that first part, that first part is pretty easy. Cause I remember you and Lafajotachen, like, we didn't know who the chuckle guy was.
[01:11:59] And I kind of was walking by the office and it's like a movie where I stopped, like halfway through a step and I backed up and I went, would you guys say,
[01:12:08] Yeah, this new, uh, masculine commander. We don't know who he is. What's his name?
[01:12:13] Like, willing, chuckle, chuckle, chuckle was something like that.
[01:12:17] I'm like, yeah, we're all set.
[01:12:19] And then they're all like, you know, because they're the two lieutenant, Seth and Lace.
[01:12:24] And they're like, following me to the head and like, relax.
[01:12:28] What about what about this guy? What a good to go.
[01:12:33] I mean, we sure were getting them and like, yeah, yeah, it's done. He's just coming. He'll be like tomorrow.
[01:12:38] Yeah, yeah, all right. Let me just tell you something. Be square away tomorrow.
[01:12:43] I said, walk away. You know, this guy and I was like, you know, is he, is he good to go?
[01:12:48] When I just looked at what, my game that looked like, please.
[01:12:53] I know what I'm talking of.
[01:12:55] Be square away to the bottom.
[01:12:57] Yeah, and you better be on your game.
[01:12:59] I mean, I'm going to be hung over tomorrow. Whatever. I know him forever.
[01:13:03] But that and what were you like to work for?
[01:13:07] What, what you like?
[01:13:09] This is not even a question. He was great.
[01:13:11] It was the best ever.
[01:13:13] I mean, just, I don't know. We think the same.
[01:13:15] We, we're, we're like minded.
[01:13:17] And we like, we like to work.
[01:13:21] We really, really love their jobs and our men and our people, you know?
[01:13:25] And I hate saying I love my man that sounds kind of whatever.
[01:13:29] But, you know, I did. I really cared about the guys.
[01:13:32] That was the best part of being a team guy.
[01:13:34] And I'm sure Jockel backed me up on that.
[01:13:36] Absolutely.
[01:13:37] His brothers.
[01:13:38] Yeah, I know doubt about that.
[01:13:40] No doubt about that at all.
[01:13:43] All right. Next one.
[01:13:47] Please, expound on the early days when you and Tony were new guys in the teams.
[01:13:54] This is like a whole no other podcast.
[01:13:58] Okay.
[01:14:00] Go ahead.
[01:14:02] Well, I don't know.
[01:14:05] It was kind of a different time when we were new guys like,
[01:14:09] Wait, my first Petune, we were involved.
[01:14:12] You know, like the first Gulf War and I thought it was,
[01:14:14] Well, that was great, you know, and we really didn't do much.
[01:14:17] My Petune didn't.
[01:14:19] And, you know, some of them guys were there for six months.
[01:14:22] And I was like a month or whatever.
[01:14:25] And then it was done.
[01:14:27] You know.
[01:14:28] But I don't know.
[01:14:30] I think in the later stages of my career,
[01:14:34] we didn't train as hard.
[01:14:37] But the deployment.
[01:14:38] I mean, we still trained hard.
[01:14:40] But the deployments were harder.
[01:14:42] Like more work.
[01:14:44] And back then, if you did the deployment where it was like,
[01:14:51] a training deployment, because there was no war going on.
[01:14:54] Be stud, the deploy.
[01:14:55] Be learn realising.
[01:14:56] There's no wars.
[01:14:57] Team guys are still deploying to same up tempo.
[01:15:00] And because we need constantly be around the world.
[01:15:03] Okay.
[01:15:04] Something happens.
[01:15:05] And, but we did a lot like hard course shit.
[01:15:10] Like we did a lot more reconnaissance work, which meant we didn't have vehicles.
[01:15:16] So we had LPCs, which are leather personnel carriers,
[01:15:19] and we were doing boots.
[01:15:21] And we'd hump in like 25 clicks or whatever.
[01:15:24] And we'd do these ridiculous swims and these long dies.
[01:15:29] And do all, I mean, really like long like the higher the better.
[01:15:32] I mean, you look at a team to put it in perspective.
[01:15:36] You look at a team guy back then.
[01:15:38] A lot of them were a lot leaner.
[01:15:40] You know, and they, we did a lot more runs swimming.
[01:15:43] You look at like a team area now.
[01:15:45] You go to the gym.
[01:15:46] And it looks like WW, you know, MMA wrestlers.
[01:15:49] You know, I mean, they do.
[01:15:50] Everybody's like, like stronger and not because you got to carry more shit.
[01:15:55] We do a lot more direct action stuff.
[01:15:58] But also we did a lot of tricking and party.
[01:16:02] It's fine.
[01:16:03] And San Diego we did.
[01:16:04] I know that.
[01:16:05] And we hung a lot together.
[01:16:08] Nobody was married.
[01:16:09] You know, I don't, we had like 16 guys in my pitoon.
[01:16:13] One was married.
[01:16:14] And he was the LPO.
[01:16:15] Yeah.
[01:16:16] No one was, no, we all hung out together all the time.
[01:16:19] We all like lived in Imperial Beach.
[01:16:21] They're like, chill list.
[01:16:23] Now people live like 40 miles away and like everyone's married and owns a house.
[01:16:28] Nobody owned a house.
[01:16:29] But they have any money.
[01:16:30] And those boxes.
[01:16:31] Yeah, we, yeah, we had a house like five guys in the apartment with like one, one couch.
[01:16:37] That was just disaster.
[01:16:39] The guy that you were talking about earlier that I lived in a corn on a with.
[01:16:44] And for quite some time, we had we in our house.
[01:16:48] We had we only had one fork.
[01:16:51] So it'd be like, it'd be like, hey, man, are you almost done with the fork?
[01:16:55] Because I want to be out of your mind.
[01:16:57] I couldn't go to vans by another fork.
[01:17:00] I could really see that happen.
[01:17:02] You two gorillas.
[01:17:03] Yeah.
[01:17:04] That was that was funny.
[01:17:06] So that when I, when I remember one of the big things I remember about checking it a team one was
[01:17:10] was just not even looking people in the house.
[01:17:13] Because it was this this reputation and and of just you're just going to get beat down.
[01:17:18] Yeah.
[01:17:19] We got hazed a lot.
[01:17:20] So yeah, we got beat up.
[01:17:21] We got hazed and a lot.
[01:17:24] You didn't, you know, you didn't come in there thinking that the world owed you anything at all.
[01:17:28] Yeah.
[01:17:29] No.
[01:17:30] The only thing they owed you was an ass beating.
[01:17:32] Right.
[01:17:33] And, you know, we had some big monster guys at the team.
[01:17:36] I remember I checked in and there was this one guy, you know,
[01:17:39] probably the biggest guy at team one.
[01:17:42] I'm not going to say his name again, just because I don't want to jay.
[01:17:45] Yeah.
[01:17:46] Ginslow to jay.
[01:17:47] I'm checking it.
[01:17:48] You know, I'm at the team and I'm doing over there doing some pushups or something.
[01:17:52] And I see this guy come out of the gym.
[01:17:54] He's literally how tall is he six six.
[01:17:56] Yeah, about the six six.
[01:17:58] 300 pounds.
[01:17:59] He's a monster.
[01:18:01] He's a completely covered in tattoos.
[01:18:03] And he's walking.
[01:18:05] It's about a 40 meter walk from the back of the team.
[01:18:08] One building to the to the area where we keep the outboard motors and stuff.
[01:18:12] And he's walking.
[01:18:13] He's lumbering, right?
[01:18:14] He's lumbering along and about 20 meters into this hike.
[01:18:18] He stops and he's got a gallon of milk in his hand.
[01:18:22] And he just, he stops like stops and uncorks the milk and just sits there.
[01:18:28] Drinks half a gallon of milk slowly puts it back down.
[01:18:32] Puts the lid back on and the lumber's the rest of the way over.
[01:18:35] I'm like, good Lord.
[01:18:36] I hope that guy doesn't eat me.
[01:18:38] But kill me and eat me.
[01:18:40] And so that was definitely the team one thing when I got to team one.
[01:18:44] I was everyone was just big bunch of tough mean bass.
[01:18:48] And they were getting ready to kick your ass at any time.
[01:18:52] Ali, bass.
[01:18:53] Yeah.
[01:18:54] And in, you know, I think, you know, nowadays there's a war going on.
[01:19:00] Right.
[01:19:01] And so the guys have a different kind of test ahead of them.
[01:19:04] And that's cool. You know, that's different kind of test.
[01:19:06] And it's a harder test.
[01:19:08] And it's, that's, that's what we, that's what guys joined teams for.
[01:19:12] So the young team guys that are coming in, freaking badass.
[01:19:14] Awesome. Absolutely.
[01:19:15] And I, it's a what man people say whatever about what they want to say about the way Millennials are and all this stuff.
[01:19:22] Man, I've been to some hanging out with some team guys, especially after some memorials and stuff.
[01:19:26] These young frog men did their badass.
[01:19:29] That ass guys that are ready to die or kill without question.
[01:19:34] And so respect and I'm so glad to see where the teams maintains that always.
[01:19:43] Absolutely.
[01:19:45] All right.
[01:19:47] If Tony had to write for the history books, three top stories of
[01:19:53] Shiny example of BTF getting after it. Oh, they beat this.
[01:19:58] Give me one.
[01:20:01] Give me one.
[01:20:03] Oh my god. Everything. Everything.
[01:20:05] There's so many good ones.
[01:20:07] It's hard to say just one guy.
[01:20:11] You know, but, uh,
[01:20:15] I don't know.
[01:20:20] I don't know. I'm one time when me and, uh,
[01:20:24] Dober did that like thousand yards center peel.
[01:20:28] That was pretty hard to contain that it didn't bother me.
[01:20:32] That was hard, man.
[01:20:34] I mean, that was, that was pretty odd.
[01:20:36] Like, I mean, this is a tactic with two guys.
[01:20:40] This is two of us bringing up the rear of this, this extraction.
[01:20:44] You know, actually, yeah, it wasn't extraction because it was by foot.
[01:20:47] Otherwise, it had been an expiltration.
[01:20:49] But we kind of took up the rear.
[01:20:51] We started like covering moving.
[01:20:54] And then guys, we just on a dead rod.
[01:20:56] But we had to stop.
[01:20:57] Go stop. Go.
[01:20:58] For about like a mile or whatever.
[01:21:00] It was just terrible.
[01:21:02] I mean, I was sweating like a teamster, man.
[01:21:06] I mean, I was just, and because it was like,
[01:21:09] Beta clock in the morning, girl.
[01:21:12] And it's like 110 degrees out.
[01:21:14] That was pretty good.
[01:21:16] That was a pretty good one.
[01:21:17] But I remember getting back to the old days with that.
[01:21:19] We didn't save ETF back then.
[01:21:21] But we should do some horrendous hams.
[01:21:24] You know, humping to the civilian world means like marching,
[01:21:27] not marching by patrolling.
[01:21:29] And be like, look at the map.
[01:21:31] And we didn't, we didn't patrol in the day.
[01:21:34] So it'd be like, all right, it gets dark at like,
[01:21:37] 19 hunting.
[01:21:39] We're going to move out about 1930.
[01:21:41] And it gets, we're going to stop at about 0.5.
[01:21:45] And we got to cover, I don't know.
[01:21:47] 40 collects.
[01:21:49] All right, let's go.
[01:21:50] And you're 100 pound rocks, acolyte.
[01:21:52] Really?
[01:21:53] Okay, let's go.
[01:21:54] You think.
[01:21:55] All right, couldn't have been a plumber or something.
[01:21:57] Oh, no, I don't mean a team guy.
[01:21:59] I couldn't have been like, what the call is?
[01:22:01] No, no, no, no.
[01:22:03] Yeah, you know, and you were kind of talking about this earlier.
[01:22:06] But I remember times where you guys be out the field for two or three days.
[01:22:12] And meanwhile, while you're in the field, we're spinning up another opportunity.
[01:22:15] I'm not going to have another target for a direct action mission.
[01:22:18] And you guys get back.
[01:22:20] And you'd be like, hey, man, we got a target for you.
[01:22:23] You're rolling out in two hours.
[01:22:25] So, and you know, you just go to your guys and be like, all right,
[01:22:28] guys, change your gear.
[01:22:29] It had an outskill.
[01:22:30] You were loading vehicles in an hour and 30 minutes.
[01:22:32] And you see, guys, just turn and burn.
[01:22:34] Yep.
[01:22:35] Yeah, nobody said, who really?
[01:22:37] No, just do it.
[01:22:39] You know, yeah, my whole.
[01:22:41] That that platoon that I had on that deployment.
[01:22:44] I mean, I'm guys BTF.
[01:22:46] I mean, especially like the sister's kids, those guys were, you know,
[01:22:50] we had the new guys, we had the older guys,
[01:22:52] and then we had the middle guys.
[01:22:54] You know, you know, you know,
[01:22:56] spas and the squirrel and Chuckie, those guys with racks.
[01:23:03] Those guys were badass, man.
[01:23:05] Because for sure.
[01:23:06] I mean, they just, they didn't.
[01:23:08] They were the meat kind of over the platoon.
[01:23:10] And there were the ones that had to do it like most of the work.
[01:23:13] You know, the new guys helped them.
[01:23:15] And the other older guys were more of leadership positions.
[01:23:19] Yeah.
[01:23:20] And they still work too, but these guys worked.
[01:23:22] And they just like, got rid of that and just got after it.
[01:23:24] Good dudes and I.
[01:23:25] After day after day.
[01:23:26] I guarantee after day after day after day.
[01:23:29] I guarantee all them guys.
[01:23:31] And I couldn't keep up with everyone after every tired.
[01:23:34] I guarantee all of them guys are doing well in their careers.
[01:23:37] Because they're fantastic.
[01:23:39] I do see them and they are all kicking ass.
[01:23:43] Roger that.
[01:23:44] That's good for sure.
[01:23:49] How does Tony decide what strategies tactics to use on a mission against an enemy?
[01:23:54] curious about your thought process?
[01:23:57] Hmm.
[01:23:58] Well.
[01:24:03] First of all, you got to figure out which we were talking about.
[01:24:08] My experience in the savages that we slayed and killed and shot.
[01:24:19] First of all, it's better to shoot someone in the back.
[01:24:22] So, you know, a little in ambush where you can catch him walking away from you as always the best.
[01:24:29] But front, just beat the F and figured out.
[01:24:32] We're talking about Sung Soo there, you know, the out of ward.
[01:24:37] You know, I thought, you know, he says, if you know yourself in your enemy, you don't need to fear thousand battles.
[01:24:45] Whatever.
[01:24:46] Well, I know myself pretty damn good and I know my group pretty damn good.
[01:24:50] And I have time to read all that stuff and figure it out.
[01:24:53] So I figured I just hate the enemy.
[01:24:55] I'll just hate him and that hate will few of my passion to make the operation as best I can.
[01:25:02] And work at the best I can and learn from the mistakes that didn't work out.
[01:25:08] That kind of when you got that, the kind of pyramids down and everything kind of works itself out.
[01:25:15] You know, and you can't be afraid to try something different because and you can't be afraid to bounce it off people.
[01:25:22] That's was great about Jocco.
[01:25:24] I would bounce something off of them, you know, anybody.
[01:25:26] Yeah, that's good.
[01:25:27] Or he go.
[01:25:28] No way, to make it.
[01:25:30] You wouldn't let it go, you know, if you like, can I walk me through this again?
[01:25:33] Roger, we're going to do that that.
[01:25:35] And I would also really when I'd let other people run operations or I would work with other groups.
[01:25:45] I would just kind of wait for when they scanced over something and I'd go, well, wait a minute.
[01:25:50] Okay, go.
[01:25:51] Now, what are we going to do here?
[01:25:52] Well, you know, we're just going to do this.
[01:25:54] I don't know what that means.
[01:25:56] Please explain it to me.
[01:25:57] Well, and they hadn't really thought about it.
[01:25:59] And that's the little glitch in the mission plan that's going to get you killed.
[01:26:03] But you can't, you know, you can't take a lot of time to plan it up sometimes.
[01:26:09] Sometimes it's like, all right, you know what?
[01:26:12] On the salt, here we're going to go.
[01:26:14] We're going to go in strong like Cowboys or we're going to go on the prowl.
[01:26:18] We're going to go in a safe dishes entry.
[01:26:20] Be real stealthy.
[01:26:21] Sometimes you can't.
[01:26:22] Sometimes it calls for a straight up punch him up.
[01:26:26] You know, just mix it up and beat the F.
[01:26:29] You know, and that's easy to do because you don't get to plan much.
[01:26:31] Okay, let's just go there and kill everybody.
[01:26:33] Show us where they're going.
[01:26:34] Yeah.
[01:26:35] Yep.
[01:26:36] So I don't know if that answers that question.
[01:26:38] But yeah, and from my perspective, I mean, and you just kind of made it sound like big, no big deal.
[01:26:45] But Tony was always pouring over the imagery, looking at the maps, trying to figure out which angle
[01:26:51] trying to figure out what the best spot trying to, that's what he's doing all the time.
[01:26:54] Just trying to analyze as much as he could and make the best plan.
[01:26:59] And I think also, man, the experience level, you know, because I said, right, even even pre-war pre-911.
[01:27:09] How many freaking obstacles did you and I do training obstacles where we did all this stuff?
[01:27:15] 2000.
[01:27:16] Yeah.
[01:27:16] It's just like over and over and over.
[01:27:18] And so by the time you get there, it's really even though these weren't combat operations.
[01:27:23] You get, we learn a lot from them.
[01:27:26] And there was a little adjustments we had to make for sure, but for the most part, what you learned how to do,
[01:27:31] what you learned how to do is you learned how to take a group of guys and get them to do something.
[01:27:36] Right.
[01:27:37] And when you learn how to do that, okay, that's then you, okay, you want to do this?
[01:27:42] Cool.
[01:27:43] I know how to take a group of guys and get them to do something.
[01:27:44] It doesn't matter what that thing is.
[01:27:46] I can get a group of guys to do something.
[01:27:48] And that's what's beneficial.
[01:27:50] No.
[01:27:54] That's what all that years of experience helps you out with.
[01:27:56] It doesn't necessarily help you.
[01:27:58] I mean, it didn't help us with doing the specific mission.
[01:28:01] No, no, it can't cover everything.
[01:28:03] I mean, at that point, I had three years as an instructor in Land Warfare.
[01:28:08] And it was my eight ninth deployment.
[01:28:11] The light on.
[01:28:12] I'd been, you know, eight potumes or whatever.
[01:28:15] It's not much more I was going to learn from another six months of training.
[01:28:22] I mean, it's pretty much, I mean, there's no real thing I was going,
[01:28:26] Wow, I've never done this before, you know, like, yeah, okay.
[01:28:30] Yeah.
[01:28:31] All right.
[01:28:32] What was the most difficult thing you ever did as a seal when was the most fearful moment in your life?
[01:28:39] Well, I get I sizzled and I tell you the truth,
[01:28:44] I got nothing to do it.
[01:28:46] You know, the bombs and the wars and the killing and stuff.
[01:28:49] It's like I never ever.
[01:28:52] Battered and I skydiving or static climbing jumping into the water, jumping at night.
[01:28:57] Never bothered me one bit.
[01:28:59] You know, not at all.
[01:29:01] Never even was scared at all.
[01:29:03] But I don't like getting on the roof.
[01:29:05] I mean, like I hate being a 40 foot ladder in a man lift.
[01:29:09] You know, I work for a landscaping company.
[01:29:11] Sometimes we're up in the man lifts.
[01:29:13] Man, this is kind of sucks.
[01:29:15] And I admit it, I'm a little bit afraid of heights at that level.
[01:29:18] And repelling off a building one morning in Hong Kong, you know, like a 60 story building.
[01:29:26] And we're repelling off and then going through a window and you got a training.
[01:29:30] You got to shoot these targets and stuff.
[01:29:32] I mean, it's pretty cool, but I didn't like it at all.
[01:29:36] And this morning it was windy and the buildings actually moving.
[01:29:39] And I looked down, I'm going on a repell.
[01:29:41] You know, I'm edging over the side.
[01:29:43] I'm not on the top of this building.
[01:29:45] And the people look like raisins down there.
[01:29:48] And I mean, I didn't even have to say, I mean, I got to go to the bathroom and I'm hung over.
[01:29:53] And I was like, oh my God.
[01:29:56] But I'd rather die than be called a pussy.
[01:30:00] I'm going to do it.
[01:30:01] No, but I'd rather die than be a pussy.
[01:30:04] That was pretty much the one I'll never forget that day.
[01:30:07] That was terrible.
[01:30:08] The most fearful moment.
[01:30:10] The most difficult thing you ever did is a seal.
[01:30:14] Retire without a doubt, 100%.
[01:30:19] Retire.
[01:30:21] And I'll leave it at that.
[01:30:23] There you go.
[01:30:26] All right.
[01:30:27] Tony's favorite piece of kit.
[01:30:30] And over Tony's career, what piece of gear has advanced the most.
[01:30:35] Not including night vision, which obviously you've moved up to a bunch.
[01:30:39] Well, I get to my favorite piece of gear kit.
[01:30:42] But evolution of gear.
[01:30:45] It's got to be, you know, there's a couple of things.
[01:30:48] Like I say boots.
[01:30:49] The boot thing is phenomenal.
[01:30:51] We got such good gear and boots now.
[01:30:53] Also you got to look in navigation.
[01:30:56] You know, I remember the first GPS is we used to call him giant pieces of shit.
[01:31:01] Because they were like the size of an ammo crate.
[01:31:04] They were huge.
[01:31:05] They were huge.
[01:31:06] They looked like a telephone from the Korean War, you know.
[01:31:10] But nowadays they're just badass.
[01:31:13] Yeah.
[01:31:14] You know, it would global positioning systems.
[01:31:16] I mean, and also communications.
[01:31:18] Yeah.
[01:31:19] I mean, your satellite communication is absolutely fantastic.
[01:31:22] And everybody was in the military out there.
[01:31:25] When we had all the old kicks.
[01:31:29] And Diana pads.
[01:31:31] And if you remember that, we had HF high frequency.
[01:31:34] We did a lot of HF and stringing up antennas on the side.
[01:31:37] Oh, my God.
[01:31:38] It was terrible.
[01:31:39] Literally, yeah, literally stringing up 80 foot antennas.
[01:31:43] So you could make a communication shot to some other distant station.
[01:31:48] Morris coat literally using Morris coat.
[01:31:50] Oh, yeah.
[01:31:51] Absolutely.
[01:31:52] Good times.
[01:31:53] But my favorite piece of kit I would have to say is anything that you get in drive.
[01:31:59] Because back in the day, we didn't, we didn't use any mobility.
[01:32:03] The thing was on foot and it was like, holy shit.
[01:32:06] That and the the 300 windmags sniper rifles suppressed with a 22 power night force scope on it.
[01:32:15] Is a wicked good piece of kit.
[01:32:17] Let me tell you what.
[01:32:18] I mean, I can read your t-shirt at a click.
[01:32:22] That's pretty good legit legit.
[01:32:25] All right.
[01:32:27] Tony, what is the number one quality that allows a leader to lead men into unconfident
[01:32:31] conditions and succeed?
[01:32:34] What's uncomfortable?
[01:32:37] I guess just bats and areas tough situations.
[01:32:41] Well, I think keep it in your mind.
[01:32:44] Mission men.
[01:32:45] Mission men.
[01:32:46] What guys?
[01:32:47] You're not paid to sit here.
[01:32:48] Here's what we got to do.
[01:32:49] Let's go do it.
[01:32:51] Yes.
[01:32:54] It sucks sometimes.
[01:32:56] It's bad.
[01:32:57] But mission men if you keep thinking that.
[01:32:59] That's what we're paid to do.
[01:33:01] The bottom line is you fall the orders of the guy above you.
[01:33:04] And we're team guys.
[01:33:05] So that line bleeds a lot.
[01:33:07] It has a lot of waves in it.
[01:33:10] You know, because he'll be like, hey Tony, we think we're going to do.
[01:33:13] I don't know, Jocca, let's do this.
[01:33:15] All right.
[01:33:16] Sounds good.
[01:33:17] But at any given time, if he goes, hey Tony, this is what we're doing.
[01:33:20] Roger that.
[01:33:21] And that's it.
[01:33:22] Even if it means dying.
[01:33:24] Because if you lead by example and you're humble and you're good to your guys and you know,
[01:33:28] you're guys and you know your guys and you let them know you.
[01:33:30] But you know, wipe their ass and you don't take any shit from them.
[01:33:33] And they know you, they'll fall you.
[01:33:36] You know, if you're humble and you make mistakes and admit it move on.
[01:33:41] And I think that's, I know a few of my guys probably most of them would fall me,
[01:33:49] or whatever we want.
[01:33:51] You know, and I guess that's just because I never changed.
[01:33:56] They always knew what they're going to get from me.
[01:33:58] And it's about it.
[01:34:00] Steady.
[01:34:01] Yep.
[01:34:02] Yeah, the other, the other big thing is making sure people understand why they're doing what they're doing.
[01:34:08] Because like Tony just said, man, we, we're going to have discussions about stuff and say, hey,
[01:34:15] this is why, this is why, well, well, this is why I think we should do it this way.
[01:34:18] You know, it's not just like going to go and do.
[01:34:20] Now, there are situations, of course, where someone goes, hey, going execute this now.
[01:34:25] Hey, go hit that building. Hey, take guys over there.
[01:34:27] There's times in combat where you got to make those decisions and you got to make things happen.
[01:34:31] And that's when you talk, that's when that's when the important things that you just talked about.
[01:34:36] Having a, just trust, right?
[01:34:38] Like I, I just had trust in my guys.
[01:34:41] They trusted me that if I was telling them to do something,
[01:34:44] it was the right thing to do.
[01:34:46] And by the way, if I told Tony, go take that building over there.
[01:34:49] And he looked at me and said, negative, not now.
[01:34:52] I knew he was saying that to me for a reason.
[01:34:54] Yeah, all the shit.
[01:34:55] I was in front of it.
[01:34:56] Yeah, there was a reason why he was telling me that.
[01:34:59] And we're not going to have that discussion.
[01:35:01] Probably don't have time to do it right right now.
[01:35:03] I'd say, okay, then we got to get out of here.
[01:35:05] And you can, okay, Roger, Roger, and then we'd go.
[01:35:09] So man, having that trust building up that trust through, you know, the humility, the relationship,
[01:35:15] all that stuff is, is how you end up with a tight unit.
[01:35:18] That's how you, that really, that's how you lead Tony.
[01:35:25] Did you have the same attitude towards death as Jocco, were you prepared to die?
[01:35:33] Was I prepared to die?
[01:35:34] Yes, in a second.
[01:35:36] That's, get that old as right away.
[01:35:39] I really didn't have an attitude to death except for, you know, making other people die,
[01:35:44] the bad guys.
[01:35:45] Then I didn't care about them.
[01:35:48] I didn't, I guess I dehumanized them in my mind.
[01:35:50] So it wouldn't bother me because they're just, they're not people.
[01:35:55] They're tired of it.
[01:35:56] And you just whack them and that's it.
[01:36:00] And I was, I was definitely prepared to die.
[01:36:03] Am I, in fact, you know, I thought that would be like the end of my career.
[01:36:08] Really kind of.
[01:36:09] But I thought it would be the end of your career too.
[01:36:13] I'm not a part of that.
[01:36:16] There was a couple guys in our task unit.
[01:36:19] I was not scared.
[01:36:20] There was a couple guys in our task unit that I, I did not think we're going to make it
[01:36:27] because they were just like, I was like, oh, yeah, I'm going to be giving a speech at his funeral
[01:36:32] because he's a fired up young kid that does not care about.
[01:36:36] Yeah, like, just not the other way for those of you out there like,
[01:36:39] oh, he like didn't do his job. He was like, oh, yeah, no, like, like just guys that were so,
[01:36:46] so fired up that, yeah.
[01:36:50] And like even our guys that did get killed, there wasn't one of them where I thought,
[01:36:55] oh, he's, he wasn't ready for that.
[01:37:02] Right. Yeah, he didn't.
[01:37:03] Did he want, of course those guys didn't want it.
[01:37:05] I would love to have him here.
[01:37:06] They would love to be here, but at the moment of truth, they did what I,
[01:37:13] what I would think they would would have done. Right.
[01:37:15] None of them that I say, oh, it's a shame or or anything like that.
[01:37:21] Because those guys had those attitudes of, they were there.
[01:37:25] They were, they loved their job.
[01:37:27] They loved doing their job.
[01:37:29] They believed in what they were doing.
[01:37:32] And that, that's the way it was.
[01:37:39] Absolutely.
[01:37:44] All right.
[01:37:47] Tony's view on training mentoring integrating new guys into the little tube.
[01:37:53] Yeah, I mean, I've been on the old peo side of that.
[01:37:57] I've been on the, not new guy side of that.
[01:38:00] I've been on the chief side of it.
[01:38:03] And I usually told the guys, you know, you're on time be motivated
[01:38:10] because it's fun.
[01:38:15] For those of you that think like the seal seems to me is a thousand times more than I thought it would be.
[01:38:20] It's a fucking blast.
[01:38:22] It's the best thing ever.
[01:38:24] It's the best men's club in the world.
[01:38:27] And, but like you said, you're trying to build these guys, have these guys build their own reputation.
[01:38:33] You know, confidence.
[01:38:35] Nobody has any confidence in the first day at the team.
[01:38:37] Nobody.
[01:38:39] Try to still confidence in them and I used to tell, you know,
[01:38:42] should be seen not heard, carry a pen and paper, be on time and shut the fuck up.
[01:38:47] Nobody cares about any of your stories where you've from or no that's crap.
[01:38:52] You know, Saint Stripes.
[01:38:55] Eventually that'll come out in a year.
[01:38:59] You know, so just ask questions.
[01:39:03] If you need to be on time, listen, do you job?
[01:39:07] And show the guys the right way to do things.
[01:39:10] And if it's not the right way, you know,
[01:39:13] tell them how to know the difference.
[01:39:15] Show them how to know.
[01:39:16] Do what they did for me.
[01:39:18] You know, and they look and you look in their eyes and they're just like,
[01:39:21] Roger, but no, you don't get it.
[01:39:23] Show me what I just said.
[01:39:25] Okay, just say you don't understand, you know.
[01:39:29] But that's about it.
[01:39:31] Try to be, you know, fair with them, direct.
[01:39:35] That's about it.
[01:39:37] Lead by example.
[01:39:39] One thing I want to say there is about,
[01:39:41] you know, talk about being steady.
[01:39:45] We had a situation one time.
[01:39:47] I was, I was a tune chief and we were working hard,
[01:39:51] working hard, working hard, like going up tempo is through the roof.
[01:39:54] The battle rhythm was shot to hell because it was just go, go, go, go, go, go.
[01:39:57] And the guys were getting tired and stuff and we had a meeting about it.
[01:40:01] And I didn't say anything.
[01:40:03] And like, if we can just slow down a little bit, you know,
[01:40:05] I'm like, okay, I mean, what's your limit, bitch?
[01:40:07] You know, because sometimes you go, go, go like that.
[01:40:10] Things get unsafe and you start making mistakes.
[01:40:13] But we hadn't really made any mistakes at that point.
[01:40:16] And I said, put it in perspective at this time.
[01:40:19] Like, doba, some of them guys, like 22, 23 years old.
[01:40:23] That was like 38.
[01:40:25] And I go, I use the analogy, like, we used to say,
[01:40:30] you're only as fast as the slowest guy in your patrol.
[01:40:33] Maybe the guy that's got more weight, caring, more equipment.
[01:40:36] So he sets the pace and I go, let me go.
[01:40:39] They'll agree with that and everyone's like, yeah, yeah.
[01:40:41] Well, we'll take a break when the oldest guy here gets tired and that's me.
[01:40:45] And I'm not tired.
[01:40:47] Now, I've said, okay, Roger that. Go to work.
[01:40:50] They're just like, yeah.
[01:40:52] Roger.
[01:40:53] So hopefully some of the new guys learned something on that one.
[01:40:58] Yeah.
[01:41:00] Yeah, I know that about that.
[01:41:02] It's leading from the front, you know.
[01:41:06] Yep.
[01:41:08] No doubt about it.
[01:41:10] All right.
[01:41:12] How does one put the high of war behind him and his, and are you always searching for it still in other things?
[01:41:28] Uh, by transition to civilian life, kind of,
[01:41:34] It's a little, I just don't like it.
[01:41:37] I mean, it's, it's terrible.
[01:41:39] Like there's no action.
[01:41:41] There's no, you know, going in, who didn't like going to work on a Monday morning?
[01:41:46] Yeah.
[01:41:47] It was the best.
[01:41:48] I mean, and, you know, and by the way, you went to work on Sunday.
[01:41:52] You went to work on Saturday.
[01:41:54] Yeah.
[01:41:55] Just every, oh, like some of the guys that team, oh, yeah.
[01:41:58] So we can know we'll be at the team.
[01:42:00] Right.
[01:42:01] We'll be working out.
[01:42:02] We're working on our gear.
[01:42:03] They're going to go out.
[01:42:04] They're going to wake up the next morning and do the same thing on Sunday.
[01:42:06] And they're going to come in on Monday.
[01:42:07] That's what it is.
[01:42:08] Yeah.
[01:42:09] Because who cares about what else are you going to do?
[01:42:10] Yeah.
[01:42:11] What else are you going to do?
[01:42:12] Like, oh, you go to your front.
[01:42:13] Go with your friends.
[01:42:14] All my friends are in the team.
[01:42:15] So it gives you nothing.
[01:42:18] So that's it.
[01:42:19] Go back to whatever failed relationship.
[01:42:22] Yeah.
[01:42:24] So that can definitely be tricky.
[01:42:27] Am I searching for another things?
[01:42:30] Probably.
[01:42:31] You know, I don't know.
[01:42:34] I don't.
[01:42:37] That's such a high question to put in perspective.
[01:42:40] I mean, I live in New Hampshire now.
[01:42:42] And I work 40 hours a week.
[01:42:45] I do all right.
[01:42:46] But I don't.
[01:42:47] There's no, you know, the magic in my life is like gone.
[01:42:51] I mean, that was, that was the magic to glue that helped me together as the teams.
[01:42:56] You know, I got some good families back there, you know, that helped me out, like,
[01:43:02] friends of mine, friends of my family.
[01:43:04] And the Murphy's, you know, the Daniels, the downsis.
[01:43:08] I mean, there's just, you know, if I don't get to people back home's name, I'm sorry,
[01:43:13] but, you know, I got really good friends that that tried to help me kind of, but they just have no idea, like,
[01:43:20] you know, there's one old team guy back there.
[01:43:23] It's like from the 70s.
[01:43:25] You know, and I talked to him.
[01:43:26] It's like Roger.
[01:43:27] You know, then there's a Sergeant Major retired 30 meters back there.
[01:43:32] But it's a small town and it's like, my drink a lot.
[01:43:36] And, you know, I work a lot too, so I'm kind of functioning that way, but there's no.
[01:43:41] I don't know.
[01:43:43] I guess I'm still looking for something, but it's just the high awards, just like, I don't know,
[01:43:50] it's, I think you could say it's the fucking best.
[01:43:56] It's like the best thing ever.
[01:43:59] You know, and once you get done with a big firefight, you're like, you want to go back and like,
[01:44:04] can we do that again and again and again?
[01:44:06] It's so much fun.
[01:44:07] I mean, even, I mean, it's socks, it's hide, but it's, it's, it's great.
[01:44:12] I mean, I would just, because if you think about, like, they say heroes, right?
[01:44:17] Tell me the real heroes of them guys standing up post out there with minimal training that
[01:44:22] don't want to be there and still do their job.
[01:44:25] And find American soldiers, sailors, Marines, you know, and whatever.
[01:44:30] For us, that's our profession, like, you know, that's like, we didn't even want to go home.
[01:44:35] It's like our blood and our guts, it's in our DNA.
[01:44:38] That's what we want to be.
[01:44:39] So, I mean, how do you, you don't just, you do all that stuff for all those years.
[01:44:45] There's going to be side effects.
[01:44:47] You know, there's going to be, I don't care.
[01:44:50] I'm, you know, I'm not going to go, I don't go see accounts, learn nothing,
[01:44:53] because I think I'm strong enough that, you know, I can handle it.
[01:44:57] But it's not easy.
[01:44:59] You know, it's like when people, when people always come up and they say, you know,
[01:45:04] thank you for serving.
[01:45:06] They always say that.
[01:45:07] And I, you know, I would say, hey, it was an honor to serve course.
[01:45:09] But what I really want to say, and sometimes if it's a deeper conversation,
[01:45:12] I'm like, don't think me, I feel guilty because you do enough.
[01:45:16] So fun.
[01:45:17] And like, you guys paid me to do this.
[01:45:20] Like, what is doing your little kid?
[01:45:22] You know, I ran around the woods and played military stuff and, right, put camouflage,
[01:45:25] put coal, black cork on my face and put played with guns and beat shot BB guns.
[01:45:29] And that's what I did all the time as a kid.
[01:45:31] And then I grew up and I turned 18 and then they started paying me money to do the same thing.
[01:45:36] I know.
[01:45:37] And then they said, oh, there's a bunch of bad guys.
[01:45:38] You go kill them.
[01:45:39] Oh, okay.
[01:45:40] They will give you more money.
[01:45:42] And then yeah, so, so people say thank you and it's sort of,
[01:45:45] it definitely makes you feel like damn, man, I got so lucky.
[01:45:49] I, I enlisted in the military, I got so lucky because it was like, you know,
[01:45:54] it was like a, the square peg found the square hole basically.
[01:45:58] Right.
[01:45:59] And that's what a lot of team guys are like, and that's why we're all of a sudden,
[01:46:02] they go, okay, you can't use that square hole anymore.
[01:46:05] They pull you out and there's a triangle there.
[01:46:07] Yeah.
[01:46:07] Yeah.
[01:46:08] Yeah.
[01:46:09] Yeah.
[01:46:09] Yeah.
[01:46:10] Yeah.
[01:46:10] No.
[01:46:11] Yeah.
[01:46:11] Yeah.
[01:46:12] It's still true and they, the service to me, I went in when I was eight.
[01:46:17] I had less than one, I was 17, one, I was 18.
[01:46:20] Got out when I was, what, 45, 44 or whatever.
[01:46:24] And it never lied to me.
[01:46:27] They always paid me and they'll pay me if they rest in my life.
[01:46:30] And everything they say was true.
[01:46:32] Do this.
[01:46:33] They go over the moon, do this, bunch of bullshit.
[01:46:35] Yeah.
[01:46:36] There's little things, but overall, you know, I didn't have to like,
[01:46:39] figure out, figure out like a woman and, you know,
[01:46:42] it was all wishy, washy, about shit and stuff.
[01:46:46] You know, and all that's just part of whatever being a man and stuff.
[01:46:50] But they never lied to me.
[01:46:52] It was always just really, really good.
[01:46:55] And it's a really life, it's not like that.
[01:46:57] I mean, I deal with people and for the most part, everybody out there is a good person, I believe.
[01:47:02] But I get mad because of the misuse of the military now.
[01:47:06] I mean, it's so misuse, it's crazy.
[01:47:10] Grab 200,000 badass army soldiers and Marines.
[01:47:16] Go over to where ISIS is and smoke these sons of bitches.
[01:47:20] What are we waiting for?
[01:47:22] I don't get it because, but on the flip coin, people are like,
[01:47:25] we get to pay the deficit because we don't want our children to pay it.
[01:47:29] Yeah, but you want them to fight the war?
[01:47:32] Let's go. We got the muscle right now.
[01:47:34] I don't know where we're waiting for.
[01:47:35] This is a crock shit.
[01:47:36] Hopefully that'll change.
[01:47:38] Yeah, hopefully we'll change.
[01:47:42] You know what, do one more question here.
[01:47:46] How do you keep your head in the game when one of your squad is killed?
[01:47:54] Yeah.
[01:47:55] You know?
[01:47:58] Well, I think for me, you have to treat it like mission men in that order.
[01:48:07] And to me, there's no use, you know, the milk is on the floor.
[01:48:12] There's no use crying over it.
[01:48:14] You know, EOD doesn't, you know, defuse a bomb that already went off.
[01:48:19] Okay.
[01:48:20] What you gotta do is try not to lose any more of your men.
[01:48:23] Okay.
[01:48:24] Now you just gotta do the mission with the dead guy.
[01:48:27] And I know that sounds maybe cruel, so there ain't no time to sit there and mourn
[01:48:31] or do any of that.
[01:48:32] You have to complete your op.
[01:48:34] You have to do your mission.
[01:48:35] All right.
[01:48:38] There's plenty of time to mourn.
[01:48:40] There's plenty of time to figure out what and wrong.
[01:48:43] Or what didn't go wrong or whatever happened when you're back at the op stun.
[01:48:47] And that's why we train like that.
[01:48:49] When we train and we go through a building and they put a guy down.
[01:48:53] You just step over and clear the house because you don't like it.
[01:48:57] You know, more than one killed.
[01:48:58] You just have to do what you've been trained to do.
[01:49:00] And in the leadership position, it's very hard not to.
[01:49:04] You know, you can train all your life, but when something happens like that,
[01:49:09] it's very hard not to just go, oh my god, I've got somebody killed.
[01:49:13] You know what happened when I happened?
[01:49:14] Because I take it very personally because it was one of my guys.
[01:49:17] And I racked my brain for a long time.
[01:49:21] And then I figured out that, well, you know, I just gotta do my job and be a leader.
[01:49:27] You know, and I can't let the rest of you guys down.
[01:49:30] And I can't let myself down on my team and my country.
[01:49:33] So I gotta do what I gotta do to get out of there.
[01:49:35] I'm not get out of there, but complete the op and then figure it out.
[01:49:38] Then take care of it as best we can and have a lot of respect.
[01:49:43] And that's about best way I can answer that, bro.
[01:49:47] Yeah, you know, I remember after Mark got killed.
[01:49:52] And he was obviously was the first seal killed in Iraq.
[01:49:55] He's the first guy that ever worked for me that got killed.
[01:49:58] And I remember a couple days when buy we actually did the memorial ceremony.
[01:50:04] In like a couple days when buy.
[01:50:09] And I was kind of trying to figure out what to say to the Patoons.
[01:50:15] Specifically what to say to your Patoon.
[01:50:18] Right.
[01:50:19] And I was sort of, and I realized what I was doing, right?
[01:50:25] When I was doing was the only thing I knew how to do, which is work.
[01:50:31] Yep.
[01:50:32] And finally, I remember I was, that's what I wrote down.
[01:50:36] I'm like, look, Mark came into your Patoon.
[01:50:41] And I said, hey, Mark is the best mother fucker ever.
[01:50:49] Yeah, he was.
[01:50:50] And my fucking soul is crushed right now.
[01:50:54] And actually remember as I was talking,
[01:50:59] I started getting emotional.
[01:51:02] And I stopped.
[01:51:07] And I was getting a little choked up.
[01:51:10] And I stopped talking.
[01:51:11] And I was just trying to get it together.
[01:51:13] And you were sitting there.
[01:51:15] And you're like, hey, man, it's okay.
[01:51:18] Yep.
[01:51:19] And I was like, check.
[01:51:22] This is what I'm going to do.
[01:51:25] I'm going to work.
[01:51:26] Yep.
[01:51:27] And this is what we're going to do.
[01:51:29] We're going to work.
[01:51:30] You know, when that happened, I was thinking about that.
[01:51:35] I, I never, ever once, shed one tear.
[01:51:40] And I started getting like concerned, like, do I have anything,
[01:51:43] like, feelings at all?
[01:51:45] And then we came back from that deployment.
[01:51:48] I remember maybe, I don't know, six months later,
[01:51:51] something.
[01:51:52] It may not sound like, may shock you, but I used to like cats.
[01:51:56] They used to like cats, you know?
[01:51:57] You always seem like a cat guy.
[01:51:59] I like dogs, too.
[01:52:00] You know, like just me and my girlfriend at the time, I cat.
[01:52:04] And my cat died.
[01:52:06] And I bought like a little baby for like three hours.
[01:52:11] I just, I think it was just a point me waiting for to come out.
[01:52:14] You know, I want to be like, okay, because your team guy around that stuff all the time.
[01:52:19] People getting maimed, shot, killed, and blown up.
[01:52:23] You know, and then it kind of fester than that.
[01:52:26] I think, you know, it's kind of deep and stuff, but whatever.
[01:52:30] I'm not really that deep of a person.
[01:52:33] And it just came out and I was like, you know, that's kind of cool.
[01:52:36] Yeah.
[01:52:37] So maybe I was just, you know, I took the like behind thing a little too too much for my boy.
[01:52:45] But, well, I think that's about all we've got for tonight.
[01:52:54] And thanks, everybody, for asking those questions.
[01:52:58] Tony, you got me.
[01:52:59] Got anything else you want to say?
[01:53:00] Any closing comments?
[01:53:02] No, I just shot out to all my, my chums and, uh, my brothers and the teams and, you know, all the people that know me, my family and everybody.
[01:53:10] And, uh, thanks for being so nice to me.
[01:53:13] And the teams, thanks for being so nice to me and letting me do all those wicked, cool things, you know.
[01:53:20] And, uh, Jocco, thanks for having me.
[01:53:23] It's so good to see you, my brother.
[01:53:24] Oh, echo.
[01:53:25] Pleasure.
[01:53:26] Thank you.
[01:53:27] I mean, just just phenomenal, you know.
[01:53:29] You don't know how many people watch your show.
[01:53:31] Watch this.
[01:53:33] Well, what fires me up the most is, uh, obviously the military guys and the team guys and, uh, team guys that are, you know, our bros.
[01:53:42] That are like, hey, man, that was great.
[01:53:44] Oh, yeah.
[01:53:45] I learned and that just gets me, uh, that's why I'm doing this, man.
[01:53:49] Yeah.
[01:53:50] That's why I'm doing this.
[01:53:51] And yeah, that's what means the most to me and having you on here obviously is, uh, is phenomenal.
[01:53:58] So, um, everybody that is out here that's listening to this.
[01:54:03] Thanks for listening to the podcast.
[01:54:05] Thanks for supporting it.
[01:54:07] If you do want to support the podcast a little bit.
[01:54:11] That's what I'm talking about.
[01:54:12] Echo Charles.
[01:54:13] Tell them quickly how to do it.
[01:54:15] Actually, it's like actually I do have one more question.
[01:54:19] Go ahead, man.
[01:54:20] Um, you know, okay, you're like a hard guy and I just put real simply and it's might be kind of an ambiguous question.
[01:54:27] But like that example, you say, it was real hot and you're not even drinking water.
[01:54:32] You're drinking coffee and Copenhagen.
[01:54:34] Yeah.
[01:54:35] Okay.
[01:54:35] Example.
[01:54:36] Like, why is that?
[01:54:37] You know, because it's a spectrum, right?
[01:54:39] Like, a lot of people, like some people, they can be big, well, they can run, you know,
[01:54:44] 10 miles, no problem all this stuff, but they get in certain kind of discomfort physically or whatever they're done.
[01:54:50] Or you get these big guys or whatever.
[01:54:52] They miss one meal they're done.
[01:54:53] Right.
[01:54:54] Right.
[01:54:55] They're throw buds.
[01:54:56] Yeah.
[01:54:57] So you're like, I was, I was probably that crew in the teams like this fight and drank a lot.
[01:55:02] And so that kind of trained us like being hung over and stuff like, I mean, we would be like,
[01:55:07] hung over and go work and you work out for three hours.
[01:55:09] Yeah.
[01:55:10] So these guys, I know guys, like, they could never do that.
[01:55:14] Right.
[01:55:15] So we're kind of like bottom feeders.
[01:55:16] So on shit, got bad.
[01:55:17] We're like, whatever.
[01:55:18] Yeah.
[01:55:19] I'll, I'll make it.
[01:55:20] But I'm not like that anymore.
[01:55:21] Like, I work.
[01:55:22] I need to drink water because I'm not used to it.
[01:55:25] Yeah.
[01:55:26] I would, there was some kind of a genetic component.
[01:55:28] Like, like, like, I, I freely admit, like, I don't sleep a lot, right?
[01:55:32] And I understand that it's not just because like, I'm just tough.
[01:55:35] It's because there's some genetic component in there that doesn't require a lot of sleep.
[01:55:40] And you know, I have one of my, I've told this before.
[01:55:44] Like, one of my daughters, I'll go to bed at like 1130.
[01:55:47] She'll be awake and then I wake up at 430 morning and she'll be awake.
[01:55:50] Like, she's genetically, she doesn't need a lot of sleep.
[01:55:53] So I know I'm kind of like that too.
[01:55:55] And there's just, just FYI for Tony, there's something genetic about the water intake.
[01:56:00] Because I mean, I did patrols and stuff with you.
[01:56:04] And, you know, I mean, I'm fairly hard, but I need water.
[01:56:09] You know, I would need to carry more water than you.
[01:56:11] And, you know, never, never would I be like a bitch about it, like, but no.
[01:56:18] You know, I, I, I, I would need, like, twice as much water as Tony would need.
[01:56:23] And I don't wait twice as much.
[01:56:25] I mean, I'm whatever.
[01:56:26] I might be 40 pounds heavier or something like that.
[01:56:28] But so there's some genetic component that makes you need less water and makes me need a decent amount of water.
[01:56:33] So, again, also I spent a lot of time at Nylon.
[01:56:38] Yeah, yeah, for sure you're activated to, I'm not like that now.
[01:56:42] I need a lot of water.
[01:56:43] But even even overall above and beyond just the water situation where,
[01:56:48] and you're like this tool that we're kind of talking about this where, do you think that,
[01:56:52] you know, like if you just sit around indoors and after all, you're like,
[01:56:57] bro, I gotta get out.
[01:56:58] Oh, yeah.
[01:56:59] A lot of people that I like that, the opposite.
[01:57:01] There's like, dang, there's a lot going on outside.
[01:57:04] They're better stained doors.
[01:57:05] Yeah.
[01:57:06] Even big tough strong guys.
[01:57:08] A lot of people are like that.
[01:57:10] Is it, and does, does this kind of fallen line with why you took to the team so,
[01:57:15] y'all, that's already absolutely echo.
[01:57:17] No, because you're like that too.
[01:57:19] Well, yeah, and I'll tell you again, going back to give credit where credits do man.
[01:57:24] The people that we were raised by the same people the teams.
[01:57:27] And those guys, they didn't complain about anything.
[01:57:31] They showed no weakness ever, ever.
[01:57:33] The ever, nothing.
[01:57:34] Yeah.
[01:57:35] Like, oh, your tire, you never hear a guy say it was tired ever.
[01:57:38] Never, no, no.
[01:57:39] You know, hurt doesn't matter.
[01:57:42] Broken something?
[01:57:43] No, just be quiet.
[01:57:45] Put tape on it.
[01:57:46] Yeah, shut up.
[01:57:47] Yeah, and that's, and so when you're brought up that way,
[01:57:49] and I mean, it was blatantly obvious when you got the team.
[01:57:52] Oh, yeah.
[01:57:53] Like if you, you just, no, there was no, no,
[01:57:55] you don't complain about anything. Just be, just suck it up.
[01:57:58] Oh, this sucks.
[01:57:59] Yeah, don't even admit that it sucks.
[01:58:01] Don't ever do that.
[01:58:03] Yeah, and that's be quiet.
[01:58:04] That's, that's probably the best way to explain it.
[01:58:06] Yeah.
[01:58:07] Yeah.
[01:58:07] That, and like, I didn't have anything else put that.
[01:58:10] Like I said, I wasn't the best shooter.
[01:58:12] I wasn't the biggest guy, but I had that.
[01:58:15] I always had that.
[01:58:16] I remember one time we were training.
[01:58:19] And you know how, like, after around this done,
[01:58:21] like a lot of people, and I was one of those people.
[01:58:23] You just, you just flop on your back and lay down and get your S.
[01:58:27] Yeah, week one to, yeah, I broke one time.
[01:58:29] Long time, we'll take your eyes off your enemy.
[01:58:31] That was more or less than attitude.
[01:58:33] He was like, you look a little tired.
[01:58:35] They're almost like, it was when you first kind of started coaching me up a lot.
[01:58:38] Yeah.
[01:58:39] And you were like, you look a little tired there, but it wasn't a joke.
[01:58:41] It was kind of like, as if you really wanted to say,
[01:58:44] Bro, don't do that.
[01:58:45] Right there.
[01:58:46] Like stand up walk.
[01:58:47] Don't, you're like showing weakness.
[01:58:49] Like how you do that.
[01:58:50] That was really the tone.
[01:58:51] That was, so that makes a lot of sense right there.
[01:58:54] But that being said, I think it goes, I feel like it goes a little bit above and beyond.
[01:59:00] Just having a skill or being really good at being able to tolerate pain.
[01:59:05] I feel like just like how you were saying, I think, you know, a few weeks ago, you were like,
[01:59:09] There is, there is a word for it.
[01:59:11] I want some a little bit of pain to show on my life kind of thing.
[01:59:14] Right, absolutely.
[01:59:15] But like in our case, I think it could be counter, counter guys is that we are,
[01:59:20] We're lunatics.
[01:59:22] Yeah, like massive because who wants who, you know,
[01:59:25] What's this being a frog, man, for 20?
[01:59:28] Yeah, I mean, that's just, but so hard on your body.
[01:59:31] Yeah, yeah.
[01:59:32] But we are lucky.
[01:59:33] Yeah, and lucky.
[01:59:34] But like I like Tim Ferrell who you talked about earlier,
[01:59:37] I mean, all the guys that we talked about, Mr. Fakimine.
[01:59:40] Yeah, how old, when he, when he, when he, we were coming up on the team,
[01:59:43] He was 46, 47 years old. He was all broken. Yeah.
[01:59:50] Broken knees, broken ankles. Guess what, out there on a six and a half mile run.
[01:59:54] Yeah, every single time.
[01:59:55] And what were the complaints?
[01:59:57] None.
[01:59:58] None ever.
[01:59:59] Just crush everyone and just be, actually like, like Mr. Fakimine,
[02:00:03] He wouldn't crush people on the run, but you'd see him hobbling.
[02:00:06] Yeah.
[02:00:07] Across the finish line.
[02:00:08] And you'd be like, that had to hurt so bad.
[02:00:11] But he just, whatever, you know, put a little tape on it.
[02:00:14] Well, I, I, I, I, I, I felt a lot of a helicopter and broke my heel bone on Halloween day.
[02:00:20] Yeah.
[02:00:20] And I deployed and, well, actually I went over before I went to play.
[02:00:24] So I deployed in March.
[02:00:26] Yeah, I got, I got a hammer and I cut my cast off with these bolt cutters.
[02:00:30] And that wasn't a good idea.
[02:00:32] Yeah.
[02:00:33] And I remember the master chief of the command.
[02:00:36] He'd, he'd, he'd, he'd say, he wanted to make sure I was good to go to go over and see.
[02:00:40] So I'd be walking down the hallway night seeing my walk perfect.
[02:00:44] Yeah, I had to live.
[02:00:45] And it hurt so bad.
[02:00:47] You're saying you're doing a stand-up shoot to shoot with him for a minute.
[02:00:50] Good, good Roger.
[02:00:51] All right.
[02:00:52] Hey, I got to go.
[02:00:53] Going to bathroom, you're going to head and go,
[02:00:55] Oh, my God.
[02:00:56] I mean, I was still hobbling when we deployed.
[02:00:59] Yeah.
[02:01:00] It just, it just kind of went away.
[02:01:02] He's no way.
[02:01:03] I was missing that.
[02:01:05] No way.
[02:01:06] Wait.
[02:01:07] I think most of us are like that.
[02:01:09] Maybe to begin with, but maybe taught like out of it.
[02:01:12] Because you know, I mean, even in everyday person, if they, they do something kind of hard
[02:01:16] or work out or even, you know, something like people will recreation and be like,
[02:01:20] I think going around a marathon or something like that.
[02:01:22] So when they do something hard or kind of painful, some kind of adversity and it's done,
[02:01:26] you feel good.
[02:01:27] I think that's a natural thing.
[02:01:28] Oh, like people like, like look, my cool scar, you know, that kind of thing.
[02:01:32] But it kind of feels like and kind of listening stuff from as an outsider a little bit here.
[02:01:38] It kind of seems like those shackles of kind of being trained out of that just didn't happen
[02:01:43] for you guys.
[02:01:44] And guys like you, you know, oh yeah.
[02:01:46] Maybe we got trained in the other way.
[02:01:48] Well, yeah.
[02:01:49] Or I think you, you guys just held onto it.
[02:01:51] Absolutely.
[02:01:52] Like it just, yeah.
[02:01:53] Yeah, there's, there's no doubt.
[02:01:55] And there's a bunch of, bunch of badass frogmen that are in the team.
[02:01:59] Yeah, that's all.
[02:02:00] And you know, you know, you can go talk to the Marines, army soldiers, tough bastards.
[02:02:05] Okay, not so. Okay. So when when he's living here, we're rolling.
[02:02:08] What's that thing that caught?
[02:02:10] Let's like this syndrome when you just work out.
[02:02:12] Oh, yeah.
[02:02:13] It's like beyond,
[02:02:14] Rab, Rabdo, Rabdo my losses.
[02:02:16] Yeah.
[02:02:17] So he gets that by the way.
[02:02:18] And he, um, it's just from his wrong.
[02:02:20] His best friend growing up to two, two of his best friends growing up our team.
[02:02:23] I'll tell you they are later.
[02:02:24] Oh, nice.
[02:02:25] So he's, we're rolling you just so he's like going every day of just all day.
[02:02:29] He's like, we're just doing the, and he's not, he's kind of quiet.
[02:02:32] He's like, oh, we're all done. We've been done hard day.
[02:02:35] Then like, you know, the guys who showed up later, whatever they're still kind of like, hey, you want all kicked out of the ladies.
[02:02:40] Okay.
[02:02:41] Like that. So he never says no.
[02:02:43] The next week.
[02:02:45] Like I guess they have to go to the doctor, whatever the next week, he's like, yeah, you have that.
[02:02:49] Rabdo, like, have you been doing a lot of physical output?
[02:02:51] You know, this is he's like, yeah, he's just been freaking, I know.
[02:02:56] But that's exactly what I'm saying.
[02:02:58] But, but normally that stops a guy in his tracks wall their training and he's just like, no, just keep training.
[02:03:04] Oh, someone else wants to train.
[02:03:05] I mean, I remember one time he said, I call him kind of tired.
[02:03:08] I mean, he said that, but he didn't say, I'm done rolling.
[02:03:11] He didn't say like, you looked tired.
[02:03:13] Oh, but then, then.
[02:03:17] Yeah.
[02:03:18] Awesome.
[02:03:19] That's what I think.
[02:03:19] Awesome.
[02:03:20] All right.
[02:03:21] Any other questions from echo Charles?
[02:03:23] No, that's it.
[02:03:24] We can, we can go to support.
[02:03:26] Support, you know, let's wrap it up. How can they support?
[02:03:29] If you want to support, this is how you can.
[02:03:31] You know, we talk about getting after it a lot from time to time.
[02:03:36] Oh.
[02:03:37] And supplementation is not a formal weakness with your agree tone.
[02:03:42] I would agree.
[02:03:43] Right. Supplement, right?
[02:03:44] Best supplements because now the supplements can be kind of whack on it.
[02:03:48] Fortunately, someone on Twitter was asking me about a,
[02:03:51] a chewing tech, a shrimp tech like, Oh, how does it work? You know, this is a thing.
[02:03:56] This is, I know that it helps, or I've heard, from credible source.
[02:04:01] That it helps with oxygen utilization.
[02:04:04] So, you know, like high intensity that kind of goes prolonged to whatever,
[02:04:07] but you can read on it on the website,
[02:04:09] they have all the, like, the actual literature.
[02:04:12] Like the test and all this stuff, but on all the stuff.
[02:04:14] Anyway, so, it's legit.
[02:04:15] We all know it's legit.
[02:04:16] I think that's kind of common knowledge by now.
[02:04:18] You can get 10% off if you want supplements on it.
[02:04:21] Doc on slash.
[02:04:21] Jocco.
[02:04:22] Let's go slash.
[02:04:23] Jocco.
[02:04:27] Get a worry bar as well.
[02:04:29] My suggestion.
[02:04:30] Not a good stuff on there.
[02:04:33] Next way.
[02:04:35] Amazon.
[02:04:36] So if you shop on Amazon, like we all do, click through the website, our website.
[02:04:41] JoccoPodcast.com is a little linked there, a little banner on the side.
[02:04:46] And go through Amazon or go to Amazon through there.
[02:04:50] And of course, subscribe to the podcast on iTunes and YouTube.
[02:04:56] Do more videos to come by the way.
[02:04:58] And of course, Jocco store.
[02:05:01] If you like any shirts that we have, we did it.
[02:05:04] I think we expanded a lot of mental energy, making sure that the shirts are good to go.
[02:05:12] As they say.
[02:05:13] Or as you would say, kind of dope.
[02:05:15] Yeah, but don't meaning not just either don't because we said so we try to put different
[02:05:20] layers on them.
[02:05:21] You know, it's not like it just says, hey, I'm cool or I don't know, whatever.
[02:05:26] It says something and then there it means something as well.
[02:05:30] Right.
[02:05:31] Where if you don't know what it means, you just don't know.
[02:05:32] That's one layer you don't know about it.
[02:05:35] This one has a couple layers sometimes three.
[02:05:37] Just saying they're not just normal.
[02:05:38] And if their quality is well.
[02:05:40] Just saying they're good.
[02:05:41] Anyway, you can judge for yourself as far as how they look.
[02:05:45] Joccostore.com.
[02:05:46] If you like, I'm going to get a shirt.
[02:05:47] Support that way.
[02:05:48] Or a mug or a sticker.
[02:05:50] Whatever.
[02:05:51] Or a rashguard.
[02:05:52] Or rashguard.
[02:05:53] Yes.
[02:05:54] So new things.
[02:05:55] R rashguard.
[02:05:56] If you didn't know already, rashguards are good.
[02:05:59] Biking, diving, swimming, surfing, bodyboarding, crossfit.
[02:06:05] Any kind of Olympic lifting where you need mobility is, it's actually better than cotton
[02:06:09] shirts.
[02:06:10] They, like, you know what I mean?
[02:06:12] And you just do.
[02:06:14] But not Lee.
[02:06:15] The jujitsu.
[02:06:16] Andy did good.
[02:06:17] And today, Andy, one is fine.
[02:06:18] Big end.
[02:06:19] Big end of work.
[02:06:20] Representing.
[02:06:21] It wasn't a super fight.
[02:06:22] It was a bracket, by the way.
[02:06:23] Oh, I thought it was a pretty little bit.
[02:06:25] Decision.
[02:06:26] He'll hook.
[02:06:27] Dang.
[02:06:28] Andy representing.
[02:06:29] And yeah, he did, in fact, have true brachka.
[02:06:32] See what we were talking about the 17, well, the 17, 19% improvement in your performance.
[02:06:38] Yeah.
[02:06:39] And in my, uh, bro science, like, opinion, I think that applies to all physical.
[02:06:44] I can't even do it.
[02:06:45] You wear this rash card.
[02:06:46] I'm, I'm a believer.
[02:06:47] And for those of you that don't know, uh, echo Charles does have a doctorate in
[02:06:52] bro science.
[02:06:53] Yeah.
[02:06:54] I'm working on it.
[02:06:56] And, um, okay.
[02:06:57] So new stuff.
[02:06:58] Also we have patches.
[02:06:59] I have Velcro, Velcro ones.
[02:07:01] You know, like this guy.
[02:07:02] Hey, Tonya.
[02:07:03] Oh, and then women's stuff as well.
[02:07:06] They're tank tops.
[02:07:07] Okay.
[02:07:08] I got you.
[02:07:09] We're going to do t-shirts as well.
[02:07:10] Thank you, Lisa.
[02:07:11] For the, um.
[02:07:12] The Nudge, you know.
[02:07:14] And then, um, yeah, there it is.
[02:07:16] That's the stuff.
[02:07:17] Maybe some more, some more cool stuff.
[02:07:19] You know, the seasons are changing.
[02:07:20] So we'll put some more stuff on there for you guys.
[02:07:22] It's cold.
[02:07:23] Need some warm gear.
[02:07:24] Potentially.
[02:07:25] Let's get it done.
[02:07:26] Yeah.
[02:07:27] But there it is.
[02:07:28] Yeah.
[02:07:29] Support it.
[02:07:30] And thanks for everyone with the, the who has supported.
[02:07:32] If you want to get some of this goodness right here, a little bit of, uh, pomegranate
[02:07:37] white tea available on Amazon.com, jockel white tea.
[02:07:43] The only thing I drink other than water and milk.
[02:07:47] So jump on the train.
[02:07:49] Also, if you haven't got a copy of extreme ownership yet, which me, my brother, late
[02:07:53] babbin wrote, which has a ton of Tony who you heard from tonight.
[02:07:56] A ton of Tony in there anytime you're hearing about the Charlie Potoon G for Charlie
[02:08:00] Potoon, New and as a truck.
[02:08:01] That's the guy we've run in it and it makes it happen.
[02:08:05] You can put up the hard copy, digital copy or the audio book in the life and I actually read
[02:08:09] in October 20th and 21st in San Diego, California, if you're a leader or you want to be
[02:08:16] a leader, come on out to the extreme ownership.
[02:08:20] Muster, we're going to teach the principles of combat leadership and we're going to get
[02:08:25] in the weeds on the tactics of how to actually employ them.
[02:08:30] There's one thing to know on, but you got to know how to employ them on the battlefield
[02:08:34] on the street in the business world or in life.
[02:08:40] So register and then come and get it.
[02:08:44] And as always, if you want to keep kicking it with us, echo Charles and myself, we're all
[02:08:51] up on the interwebs.
[02:08:53] Twitter, Instagram and that face bookie.
[02:08:59] Echo Charles is at echo Charles.
[02:09:01] I'm at Jakah Willink.
[02:09:06] I don't think Tony has any of that stuff.
[02:09:08] No, I don't do this.
[02:09:10] It's a BTF in the time for it.
[02:09:12] BTF.com.
[02:09:14] Yeah.
[02:09:15] Just don't contact me.com.
[02:09:17] And to all the motivated troopers out there, especially first off, those in uniform, military,
[02:09:26] law enforcement firefighters, EMTs, thanks for what you all do.
[02:09:32] Thanks for working hard for training hard for living hard and for fighting hard and for holding
[02:09:38] the line.
[02:09:41] And the rest of you folks out there, the rest of you troopers in the workforce attacking your
[02:09:49] daily struggles, smashing obstacles, keep doing what you're doing and doing it with
[02:09:56] focus and some ferocity.
[02:10:01] And finally, to Tony.
[02:10:05] Thanks again, my brother for coming on the show.
[02:10:08] Thanks for the years you put in training, fighting and leading.
[02:10:15] Thanks for always being there to support me.
[02:10:18] No matter what.
[02:10:21] No matter what.
[02:10:24] Yes, sir.
[02:10:26] Thanks for what you did for me for the task unit, for the teams, for the Navy and for the
[02:10:31] United States of America.
[02:10:34] And you know, Tony is one of the many veterans from every war who remains in the shadows,
[02:10:42] who seeks no glory, who did what he did as his duty for country and for his brothers
[02:10:54] on his left and now on his right.
[02:10:58] So to all of you veterans like Tony, the true quiet professionals, thanks to you warriors
[02:11:09] who have set the example of how to serve and of course, how to get after it.
[02:11:19] So until next time, this is echo and jockel and the original BTF.
[02:11:31] Tony is ready.
[02:11:32] Thanks, brother.
[02:11:33] Dido – no, he said, check Roger.
[02:11:55] Roger.