Jocko Podcast 363: The Principle Weapon Is The Mind. Read, Study, Learn, with JD Baker.

2022-12-07T22:30:03Z

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AI summary of episode

And, you know, in the Marine Corps, you know, I had the opportunity because of some of the officers that I served with that let me tag along and go on some staff rides historically, which was like super, I mean, you know, going to over and study in Okinawa, the battle over there and seeing the reverse slope defense of the Japanese, like what we kind of went through, the Philippines, you know, the Korea, you know what I mean? Yeah, I mean, never really even like crossed my mind, you know, at the point, you know, when, like I remember I listened to you when you had like, when you and Dave, when you had Dave Burke on, you were talking about like the top gun when like we grew up. And, you know, bringing them to Gettysburg, everybody's like, you know, in Gettysburg, like who are these, it's like their lifeguards, like from San Diego, like, I mean, the whole Baywatch. They go to what, like if you come in, like, you know, when you first get down there, you know, and it's no offense to recruiters or anything like that, but you know, the kids are supposed to be able to have completed somewhat of a physical task prior to coming. But then when you meet like the smoke jumpers and the hotshots, that's like kind of like these people, like if we would have had Discovery Channel, like when you and I were kids in the 80s and I would have seen like, wait a minute, I can get paid money to get a chainsaw, which are always fun to operate. You know, everybody else is like, you know, hitting it and, you know, but it's, you know, when you, when you, when you keep everybody, you know, caged up down there and cell block and you're crossing the pond. And when I told him about my dad with baseball, he was like, you know, he like lit up like, cause he was like, you know, I played semi pro baseball up in New Jersey. I mean, I was like, oh, you know, when I came in there, I was like, you know, telling them to recruit, I was like, hey, I've got to be infantry. You know, because we were still back in the, probably in the half-cock days, you know what I mean, of the white feather, you know, the Chuck Mulhaney, you know, we're gonna, you know, the stocking and, which stocking is a, I would say stocking is, it's patrolling. So I mean, you know, like when you go see the doc and they're like, so on a pain scale of one to 10, like where I was like, dude, yeah, this is a 10. Some of the older, like the E7s and E8s that were there were Vietnam era guys, but you know, like what you would call like the troop handlers or more like the corporals and the sergeants kind of. You know, that kind of an aspect of, you know, even though we've got mine, you know, a lot of times people, you know, I got mine, let's make it harder for the next guy. But, you know, I used to make fun of them like, you know, cause he'd wear like Navy boxing and, you know, and of course Doug was a Navy wrestler. And, you know, there's nothing greater than when you're, you know, because, and it's not necessarily, you know, maybe their parents just, we don't know their background, how they were raised like for me. I don't know if we went through like a full school, but it was like a couple, like a day and a half or something like this. But when they show you like photos and stuff of like what people look like with blister agent and like, that was like a, that was a real threat. Like when I'm looking at an instructor, you know, if I walk in on training day one and the instructor looks like a seabag with lips and the first thing he's going to tell me how he used to be a badass, you know what I mean? So, you know, like back then, like Beirut was like, which was huge for the Marine Corps, you know, that incident. Like, so the first morning kind of like, you know, this morning I got up, you know what I mean? But, you know, back then like, I didn't really know that like there was other jobs like in the Marines. Like with the Navy, we don't like to PT and you don't want us to say, like it was, like it was odd, like the rules that they had there at the academy. I mean, those dudes, I mean, that's, and that's where, you know, when you're talking about like having these kids there compete at that level, like you at Hawaii, I mean, it's a different, that's just a different level of competition, playing those folks, man. It's, you know, like I said, I mean, you know, Eli Tucker had a huge effect on me as a platoon sergeant and, you know, coming in from the kids that were in that platoon. I mean, that battalion for some odd reason, man, we had some like amazing second lieutenants like that were just like, you didn't really see that many great guys that were all in that battalion from Pascoley to, you know, there was just a bunch of them. Yeah, I mean, it's, you know, if you're like the third hat, like the new guy and you're in there like big daddy and the recruits and handing out candy to them. And then once that was over, it seemed like that I just seemed like, well, I'm gonna be doing some kind of secret shit's going on, you know, like the SEAL teams, come on, we're doing stuff worldwide all the time. But I mean, you know, all my friends were like, dude, it must be so cool having like, you know, cause my dad's nickname was T-Bone. So I would say, you know, once you get into that team leader kind of role and NCO, you know, the non-commissioned officer, you know, that's when, you know, we're gonna start, you need to start thinking on your own. Like with the midshipmen and, and you know, and if they knew that like midshipmen can't leave the yard, but if they're running with me, then they're allowed to just say, I'm with Gunny, you know what I mean? And then, you know, the Navy docs that are taking care of me, you know, they were, they were kind of great guys, but one of the Navy doctors, commander, you know, he was like, yeah, I mean, it's not like we're, we're banging it, you know, in the main of like something that's just like incredibly difficult, but to some people, three pull ups is that's the most I've ever done in their life. And I remember at the time I'm thinking like, oh man, he's pretty fast for like being a big, you know, guy, but he's not big compared to like the D line or the O line or whatever. So these are like all the guys, like in the Navy, like they got guys that like have jobs. But when I was growing up, it seemed like everyone that played baseball was like a little Dominican dude or a little Puerto Rican dude, you know, like little guys. He wanted to like to elevate, you know, kids that are 13 and above, they kind of know that they know the basics of the game. Did you have like a global perspective of the world and think, well, you know, it's the, you know, Cold War is going on, you know, this could kick off. Like, can we just, so it was one of those props that's got like the little curtain that the, you know, the pilot like puts luggage on and then he takes the curtain and whips it over there to the side. That's a, you know, and you know, when you think of the events of an infantry company, you know, in a barracks, you know, you can't help but think of Beirut. And, you know, it was, you know, he told me, you know, let me tell you what it's like to be a drill instructor. And so when I was over there, like the midshipment on the football team, like they immediately came over and started talking to me, asking me, you know, like, hey, who are you? And, you know, we just, we go out, we go to the field, we run exercises, we come back, and then we get like, you know, like four or five days off. So you didn't really, you know, like nowadays, like kids move into their rooms and they got TVs, they got Xbox, they got all this kind of stuff. For instance, you know, you can go watch on YouTube, you can go watch like the Welcome Abored, not like the first night, but maybe it's the second day where the Marines, they have a very preplanned script that they're saying about, you know, this is the Marine Corps, this is what we're doing. You know, when some folks are like, yeah, Desert Storm was like, what, like 96 hours. So, you know, so for me, I was like, well, I asked the PE guy, like, do you care if I like run with them? Because like you didn't stay in the same, you know, officers are segregated out, you know, and then you just, what we, you know, they're not in cell block. Yeah, I mean, that's kind of like, I knew a lot of these kids, like they would come out and like, cause I would run every morning at five. So it's just a, you know, it's a fun time when you've got like 24 great Americans that just want to shoot bolt guns, you know what I mean? You know, there is a whole, like I said, this was Jason, you know, when Jason was on, there's like a spiritual side to this. I even read some theoretical physicists, the cork and the jaguar, which was like, that'd be a cool job to be like a theoretical fit, just like sitting in a room like this. I mean, not like big unit kind of guy, that big, you know, six, seven, six, nine, but then at like 10 years old, my brother quit growing and I kept growing.

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Episode transcript

[00:00:00] This is Jocko podcast number 363 with Echo Charles and me,
[00:00:04] Jocko willing.
[00:00:05] Good evening Echo.
[00:00:06] Good evening.
[00:00:07] All commanders should consider the professional development
[00:00:10] of their subordinates,
[00:00:11] a principal responsibility of command.
[00:00:15] Commanders should foster a personal,
[00:00:18] personal teacher-student relationship
[00:00:21] with their subordinates.
[00:00:23] Commanders are expected to conduct
[00:00:25] a continuing professional education program
[00:00:27] for their subordinates,
[00:00:29] which includes developing military judgment
[00:00:31] and decision making
[00:00:32] and teaches general professional subjects
[00:00:34] and specific technical subjects pertinent
[00:00:37] to occupational specialties.
[00:00:40] Useful tools for general professional development
[00:00:44] include supervised reading programs,
[00:00:47] map exercises, war games,
[00:00:50] battle studies and terrain studies.
[00:00:54] Commanders should see the development
[00:00:56] of their subordinates as a direct reflection of themselves.
[00:01:02] Finally, every Marine has a basic responsibility
[00:01:07] to study the profession of arms on his own.
[00:01:12] A leader without either interest in
[00:01:15] or knowledge of the history,
[00:01:17] the theory of warfare
[00:01:18] and the intellectual content of his profession
[00:01:22] is a leader in appearance only.
[00:01:27] Self-study in the art and science of war
[00:01:31] is at least equal in importance
[00:01:33] and should receive equal time
[00:01:36] to maintaining physical condition.
[00:01:39] This is particularly true among officers.
[00:01:42] After all, an officer's principal weapon is his mind.
[00:01:47] And that right there is a little excerpt
[00:01:54] from the Fleet Marine Force Manual One, War Fighting,
[00:02:01] a book that was commissioned by General Al Gray,
[00:02:04] the 29th Commandant of the Marine Corps
[00:02:06] and one of the most iconic Commandants of the Marine Corps.
[00:02:09] It's one of the first manuals
[00:02:11] that we covered on this podcast.
[00:02:13] And what that excerpt describes
[00:02:17] is an approach that I have tried to take to study war,
[00:02:21] to study history, the theory of war,
[00:02:24] the history of war, the profession of war
[00:02:28] and I've met some folks along the way
[00:02:31] who are also enthralled by the study of history and warfare
[00:02:36] and one of the most knowledgeable
[00:02:38] that I've met is here with us tonight.
[00:02:41] His name is JD, Judd JD Baker.
[00:02:45] He served in the Marine Corps for 21 years
[00:02:49] as an infantryman, a sniper, drill instructor,
[00:02:51] senior enlisted advisor in a bunch of different billets,
[00:02:55] deployed to war zones around the world
[00:02:58] and he's here with us tonight to share his experiences
[00:03:01] and lessons learned with us, JD.
[00:03:06] Thanks for coming by, man.
[00:03:07] Thanks for having me on.
[00:03:09] Let's get into it, man.
[00:03:11] You've got so much knowledge that I wanna squeeze out of you
[00:03:15] and we'll get to the end where we'll talk about
[00:03:18] how I plan to squeeze knowledge out of you.
[00:03:19] I got a whole campaign plan on how to do that.
[00:03:22] But let's talk about you, where you came from,
[00:03:25] how you grew up.
[00:03:26] So when were you born?
[00:03:28] 69, March 8th, 1969.
[00:03:31] And where?
[00:03:33] Huntington, West Virginia, right on the higher river
[00:03:37] down on the southeastern side.
[00:03:38] So you could basically swim to Ohio and walk to Kentucky.
[00:03:43] That's a pretty good triathlon right there, huh?
[00:03:45] Yeah, yeah.
[00:03:46] The three state triathlon.
[00:03:47] So what's your mom and dad do?
[00:03:49] My mom was a stay at home.
[00:03:51] My dad, he worked for a nickel plant,
[00:03:55] big industrial kind of area down there on the river,
[00:03:58] you know, West Virginia, coal, nickel,
[00:04:00] all that kind of stuff.
[00:04:01] And my dad hated his job.
[00:04:05] You had to suit and tie, go into work every day,
[00:04:08] same kind of deal.
[00:04:10] And all he wanted to do was scout major league baseball.
[00:04:14] So he put applications out all over the place,
[00:04:16] got picked up by the Pittsburgh Pirates,
[00:04:18] and got to live out the rest of his life,
[00:04:22] scoutin' baseball.
[00:04:23] Did he quit his job at the nickel plant?
[00:04:26] He just put in enough time to get retirement,
[00:04:29] like as soon as like early retirement.
[00:04:31] So it was kind of like in the military,
[00:04:32] you just do the 20 years.
[00:04:34] What is he putting on his application
[00:04:35] to become a major league scout?
[00:04:37] I mean, don't you have to spend like time
[00:04:39] looking at high schools, then maybe you get
[00:04:40] a community college, then you go to a regular college,
[00:04:43] then you get to go to be a scout for the Pittsburgh Pirates.
[00:04:47] That's a big jump out of the gate, isn't it?
[00:04:49] Yeah, it's a pretty big jump.
[00:04:51] My dad played college ball at Marshall.
[00:04:54] So he played a little bit of college ball,
[00:04:55] and you know, in our household,
[00:04:57] if it wasn't white with little red stitches on it,
[00:05:02] my dad didn't give two shits about it.
[00:05:05] So basically we were raised in a dugout,
[00:05:07] which was super cool for kids growing up
[00:05:10] with me and my older brother.
[00:05:12] So it was strictly baseball.
[00:05:14] He coached baseball, never like coached us
[00:05:17] while we were playing Little League.
[00:05:19] My dad coached Babe Ruth,
[00:05:21] he coached some of the travel teams, stuff like that.
[00:05:24] Was he smart enough to realize that he shouldn't coach you?
[00:05:28] He didn't like little kids.
[00:05:30] Okay, that'll do it too.
[00:05:32] You know what I mean?
[00:05:33] Like he didn't want to be the one out there,
[00:05:34] like you know, clapping for little Johnny
[00:05:36] and Susie telling them they're doing a great job.
[00:05:39] You know what I mean?
[00:05:40] He wanted to like to elevate, you know,
[00:05:42] kids that are 13 and above,
[00:05:45] they kind of know that they know the basics of the game.
[00:05:48] Was he doing like weird, subliminal stuff to you
[00:05:50] when you were little to like,
[00:05:52] was he like throwing the apple to you?
[00:05:55] Like, oh, hey, hey, Judd, you want an apple?
[00:05:57] Like toss it to you real quick,
[00:05:58] we gotta catch it to work on your hand, I ask you.
[00:06:00] I feel like I did that with my kids.
[00:06:02] I was doing all this weird kind of like things.
[00:06:05] Well, the funny thing is, is like both myself and my brother,
[00:06:09] we throw right, but we bat left.
[00:06:12] And I don't remember ever,
[00:06:16] like it's kind of like learning to swim.
[00:06:17] Like I don't remember when I learned to swim.
[00:06:21] And I don't remember learning how to swing a bat,
[00:06:24] but both my brother and I both bat left-handed,
[00:06:28] because in baseball you have an advantage.
[00:06:30] You're already facing first when you get done swinging.
[00:06:33] So you've got to drop.
[00:06:34] You can get the first base faster.
[00:06:37] So it was like-
[00:06:37] That's the kind of thing right there.
[00:06:38] I bet your dad was like, no, no, no,
[00:06:40] you need to stand over here, buddy, stand over here.
[00:06:43] Right.
[00:06:44] So yeah, it was all that with baseball.
[00:06:47] And of course as a kid, we loved the game.
[00:06:50] You know, we played other sports as well, but baseball was-
[00:06:54] What other sports did you play?
[00:06:55] We played soccer, we played basketball.
[00:06:57] We played a little bit of football, but not as much.
[00:07:00] It was mainly, it was baseball.
[00:07:03] Now, you played the other sports all the way through high school,
[00:07:07] or at some point did we focus and just go like,
[00:07:09] it's baseball, baseball, and baseball?
[00:07:11] It was pretty much like, you know,
[00:07:14] soccer was mainly for the running aspect,
[00:07:16] to be prepared for baseball season.
[00:07:19] Like everything came off of baseball.
[00:07:22] You know, basketball, my brother wrestled,
[00:07:25] because he wasn't coordinated enough to play basketball.
[00:07:29] So he wrestled, you know, I played basketball,
[00:07:33] I loved the game.
[00:07:34] Just a little thing here for the wrestlers out there.
[00:07:37] I gotta say this, Jeremy Stevens,
[00:07:38] you know, he's an MMA fighter and a great dude,
[00:07:41] but he wrestled in Iowa, you know, in high school and stuff.
[00:07:44] And one of their insults they would say,
[00:07:47] if someone came in, if they wrestled against a guy,
[00:07:50] or someone that was in the wrestling room,
[00:07:52] they'd be like, oh, how was that guy?
[00:07:54] He said, oh, he felt like a basketball player,
[00:07:56] meaning just like weak.
[00:07:59] So when you say, I just gotta throw that out there
[00:08:01] for the wrestlers, because I can't let it go unchecked,
[00:08:03] that you're like too not coordinated enough
[00:08:05] to play basketball.
[00:08:06] So we wrestled and said,
[00:08:07] so I gotta give some props to my wrestlers out there.
[00:08:11] Yeah, my brother on the wrestling team, you know,
[00:08:13] of course, my older brother, and of course,
[00:08:16] his wrestling friends would all come over to the house
[00:08:18] and wanna put the basketball player
[00:08:21] into a pretzel in the middle of a family room
[00:08:23] on a daily basis.
[00:08:25] The only thing I liked about it was
[00:08:27] when we sat at the dinner table, you know,
[00:08:29] I didn't have to cut weight.
[00:08:31] Oh, yeah.
[00:08:31] And my brother is over there, just like lettuce,
[00:08:35] just shaking the water off,
[00:08:37] and I've got like a big thing, a pasta,
[00:08:39] and just, you know, just wolfing it down.
[00:08:43] So I always felt bad, you know,
[00:08:46] for my brother and those aspects,
[00:08:48] but wrestling was huge in West Virginia,
[00:08:51] you know, at Huntington High,
[00:08:52] where we went to school,
[00:08:54] Coach Archer, legendary All-American wrestler
[00:08:57] coming out of there.
[00:08:59] We had some other Ken Zefalato guys,
[00:09:01] you know, wrestle Pan-An game.
[00:09:02] I mean, wrestling was huge,
[00:09:04] so it was a real big deal,
[00:09:07] but I was just thankful enough
[00:09:09] that I didn't have to like cut weight.
[00:09:12] And, you know, and the wrestling practices were just brutal.
[00:09:16] My brother would come by,
[00:09:17] I mean, basketball practice,
[00:09:18] he'd go shoot some hoop man, play a little one-on-one.
[00:09:21] You know what I mean?
[00:09:21] It was like nothing demanding.
[00:09:24] You know what I mean?
[00:09:25] You were a little, you know,
[00:09:26] back then in the 70s, those, you know, tube socks
[00:09:28] all the way up, little cute shorts, man.
[00:09:30] Yeah, little short shorts, put on a tank top, man.
[00:09:32] That's what we're doing.
[00:09:33] Yeah, you know, watch Larry Bird,
[00:09:35] Magic Johnson kind of stuff,
[00:09:37] but yeah, you played basketball.
[00:09:39] So, yeah, I always, yeah, the wrestlers,
[00:09:42] that was next level, you know.
[00:09:44] So did you, did you play three sports in high school then?
[00:09:48] Or did you at some point just play baseball?
[00:09:50] Yeah, it ended up just being baseball.
[00:09:52] Your dad's plan came together.
[00:09:54] Yeah, and the other-
[00:09:55] What position did you play?
[00:09:56] I was a pitcher.
[00:09:58] How tall are you?
[00:09:59] Six foot three.
[00:10:00] I went and talked to the Padres a few years ago.
[00:10:03] And, you know, I don't really follow baseball super close.
[00:10:06] But when I was growing up,
[00:10:07] it seemed like everyone that played baseball
[00:10:09] was like a little Dominican dude
[00:10:12] or a little Puerto Rican dude, you know, like little guys.
[00:10:15] And I went and talked to the Padres.
[00:10:17] Every one of those guys was a freaking giant human, giant.
[00:10:22] And I was like, oh, I guess it's a huge advantage.
[00:10:24] I guess it's coming back now
[00:10:25] where they got some smaller players,
[00:10:26] but it's a huge advantage, right?
[00:10:28] To be a pitcher and be six three.
[00:10:30] Oh yeah.
[00:10:31] And, you know, I started out as a kid.
[00:10:33] I think I was eight years old for my birthday.
[00:10:37] You know, we didn't make a big deal out of birthdays.
[00:10:39] We just, you know, running a mom and dad's room
[00:10:41] on your birthday and they'd have a present for you.
[00:10:43] And mom was a catcher's met.
[00:10:44] Cause they thought, you know, my dad was like,
[00:10:46] okay, he's going to be the short one.
[00:10:47] So he'll be the catcher.
[00:10:49] You know what I mean?
[00:10:50] My older brother, Tommy, he's going to be the tall one.
[00:10:52] So he'll be the pitcher.
[00:10:53] My dad was a pitcher.
[00:10:54] He's six foot three.
[00:10:56] He was a big guy.
[00:10:58] I mean, not like big unit kind of guy, that big,
[00:11:01] you know, six, seven, six, nine,
[00:11:03] but then at like 10 years old,
[00:11:06] my brother quit growing and I kept growing.
[00:11:11] So then we, we reversed.
[00:11:12] We just traded myths.
[00:11:15] So then my brother became a catcher,
[00:11:16] which I was thankful for.
[00:11:18] Cause again, as you can kind of see with like, you know,
[00:11:21] the basketball aspect, a catcher is a,
[00:11:23] that's a brutal, brutal job.
[00:11:27] You know, I mean, but you control the field.
[00:11:30] You're the leader.
[00:11:31] You're the only one that can see all eight players
[00:11:34] at one time, but you know, being a catcher,
[00:11:37] just, you know, hot, sweaty behind the plate.
[00:11:39] You're engaged in every play out there.
[00:11:43] And my brother was really good.
[00:11:44] My brother was a really good baseball player as a catcher.
[00:11:48] And then for me, being a pitcher,
[00:11:50] you're kind of like the, you know,
[00:11:51] like a basketball player compared to a wrestler.
[00:11:53] You're the, you know, you got to take care of the pitcher.
[00:11:57] And you know what I mean?
[00:11:58] He's, you know, he's special kind of aspect of it.
[00:12:02] So I didn't get beat up as much as my brother did.
[00:12:06] And how about school?
[00:12:07] Are you doing all right in school
[00:12:08] as far as like grades and everything?
[00:12:09] Do you care?
[00:12:10] Is it like no big deal?
[00:12:11] Are you getting into trouble?
[00:12:12] What's going on with your, just your youth?
[00:12:15] Yeah.
[00:12:16] School pretty much get terrible.
[00:12:20] Just, just terrible.
[00:12:21] The coolest thing in school was in the first grade.
[00:12:28] My first grade teacher was Mrs. Goheen.
[00:12:32] And Mrs. Goheen, cool thing about it is
[00:12:34] I'm friends with her on Facebook, even still today,
[00:12:36] which is like super cool with social media
[00:12:38] to be friends with Ms. Goheen.
[00:12:39] And she made us do a book report.
[00:12:42] And probably the biggest impact she had on me was
[00:12:45] she let you pick whatever book.
[00:12:47] She didn't like assign a book to make us read
[00:12:51] something specific.
[00:12:51] You got to pick whatever you wanted.
[00:12:54] Me, I did my first book report on Babe Ruth
[00:12:57] with the New York Yankees.
[00:12:58] Obviously we had a lot of baseball books in the house,
[00:13:01] just laying around everywhere.
[00:13:05] So she allowed me to write my first book report
[00:13:07] and then just to have a love of reading.
[00:13:11] It doesn't matter what you read, just read.
[00:13:14] So after that, I always enjoyed reading as a kid.
[00:13:19] But I love gym class, I liked recess, I like to play.
[00:13:24] I mean, whatever the game is, it doesn't matter.
[00:13:27] I enjoyed playing a game.
[00:13:28] And my dad was always pretty, he was pretty liberal
[00:13:33] with the aspects of boys will be boys kind of aspect.
[00:13:37] But my dad was a mathematician.
[00:13:39] So he loved math.
[00:13:41] And I'm the complete opposite.
[00:13:43] I don't like math.
[00:13:45] I'd rather the liberal arts, the history,
[00:13:47] the reading, the books and stuff.
[00:13:49] So, we kept enough to play sports.
[00:13:53] So you got to have a 2.0 to play ball.
[00:13:55] So as long as you were above a 2.0,
[00:13:57] my dad was like, well, I'm good with that.
[00:13:59] You know what I mean?
[00:14:00] I wasn't an honor society or holding candles,
[00:14:03] having photos taken in school.
[00:14:06] But I had a lot of fun, great childhood.
[00:14:10] You got an A in recess, lunch, gym class and fun.
[00:14:14] I like that.
[00:14:15] I knocked it out the park in all those areas.
[00:14:19] And then where I grew up, probably another big aspect
[00:14:23] of my life was at eight years old,
[00:14:26] my dad sent me to camp.
[00:14:29] Now, this is a camp.
[00:14:31] It's called Camp Walla-Watula.
[00:14:33] And it's in Milborough Springs, Virginia, Bath County
[00:14:36] on the Cal Pasture River.
[00:14:38] My dad went to this camp.
[00:14:41] And it's kind of like Hogsworth,
[00:14:43] and like the Harry Potter stuff where they would take us
[00:14:45] to the train station in Huntington.
[00:14:47] You'd have your big luggage,
[00:14:52] and you'd get on a train,
[00:14:53] and we would take the train to Clifton Forge, Virginia.
[00:14:57] And the counselors would pick us up from the train,
[00:15:02] throw all of our luggage in there and take us out
[00:15:04] to Camp Walla-Watula on the Cal Pasture River
[00:15:06] for seven weeks, living in tents.
[00:15:09] And it was like, I loved camp.
[00:15:14] Huntington, you'd shot 22 rifles,
[00:15:17] you shot bow and arrow, canoeing, swimming, horsebacking,
[00:15:22] oran tearing, leaf identifications,
[00:15:25] not tying, all these kind of things.
[00:15:27] And it was at Camp Walla-Watula,
[00:15:30] and I had to beg my parents to go at eight years old
[00:15:33] because normally you had to go when you were nine,
[00:15:34] but my older brother went.
[00:15:36] And when we went to go pick up my brother,
[00:15:38] and I got to see this camp, I was like, oh, this is it.
[00:15:42] Like, so we would spend seven weeks every summer
[00:15:46] on the Cal Pasture River at camp,
[00:15:49] which had a huge effect on the rest of my life.
[00:15:53] I mean, going into the Marine Corps was like going to camp.
[00:15:56] You know what I mean?
[00:15:57] I mean, you join the infantry, going to camp,
[00:16:00] you got activities.
[00:16:01] So you did that every year for, like until you were how old?
[00:16:05] Until I was 14, and then Don Sutton,
[00:16:09] the family that owned the camp that had,
[00:16:10] like I said, my dad went to that camp.
[00:16:14] He had two sons and nobody wanted to take the camp over.
[00:16:18] So they basically shut the camp down,
[00:16:20] but every June, we have a reunion
[00:16:24] with all the guys at Camp Walla-Watula.
[00:16:27] The sad thing is, is like, I'm one of the youngest
[00:16:30] of the reunion guys.
[00:16:32] And we go back every June,
[00:16:35] but being at camp with the counselors,
[00:16:37] and they had a big effect on me as a kid growing up of like,
[00:16:44] I mean, you sat at tables, they taught you manners,
[00:16:48] how to eat, how to take care of yourself,
[00:16:50] basically how to be a Virginia.
[00:16:53] And every, at the three week mark,
[00:16:57] they would take us into Lexington, Virginia.
[00:17:00] VMI's there, and then they've got the Robert E. Lee tomb is there.
[00:17:04] So we would go visit Robert E. Lee.
[00:17:07] So like at the first time at eight years old,
[00:17:10] I remember seeing the Robert E. Lee,
[00:17:12] Stonewall Jackson, Virginia, all that Washington,
[00:17:18] Virginia in history is huge.
[00:17:21] And at camp, we had mandatory like nap time,
[00:17:25] after lunch, you'd come back.
[00:17:27] And it was like reading, reading, laying rack,
[00:17:29] kind of an event.
[00:17:30] So you could bring a book, you could write letters home,
[00:17:34] the letter writing really didn't go very well.
[00:17:36] I think my mom still has the first letter I wrote,
[00:17:38] and it was like, dear mom and dad having a good Judd.
[00:17:41] And that was it, you know what I mean?
[00:17:45] But yeah, that aspect of growing up and seeing mentorship
[00:17:51] of like the counselors that came into the camp,
[00:17:54] and they mentored us at a very early age,
[00:17:57] and seeing kind of like what Wright looked like
[00:18:00] for growing into becoming a man was a huge, huge aspect.
[00:18:05] That was an all boy camp, all boys.
[00:18:07] Yep, there was an all girls camp right down the river
[00:18:10] called Camp Montchanadoa, still exists today.
[00:18:14] And we would do like a dance with them and stuff.
[00:18:17] We'd go up river and go there,
[00:18:22] nice to see young girls at a camp.
[00:18:26] So it was fun, but yeah, I mean,
[00:18:30] the Cowpasture River is a part of my life.
[00:18:32] I mean, I've got, when I die,
[00:18:34] I want to be cremated, my ashes dumped in the Cowpasture.
[00:18:38] We go every year, I mean, I love the plate.
[00:18:40] My wife and I, Tracy, we were married in the Cowpasture River,
[00:18:44] like standing in the river.
[00:18:47] Yeah, that's a huge tie to me,
[00:18:49] is that river and that part of my life.
[00:18:51] How far is that river from where you grew up?
[00:18:55] Probably about three and a half hours,
[00:18:58] three and a half hours, four hours just over the Appalachia.
[00:19:01] It's on the Virginia, West Virginia border
[00:19:05] in Bath County, Virginia, up in the mountains up there.
[00:19:09] Beautiful part.
[00:19:10] So were you on track to like go to college
[00:19:14] and play baseball?
[00:19:15] Were you good enough?
[00:19:16] Were you like, what was going on with that?
[00:19:19] Well, you know, the good thing is I had my older brother
[00:19:22] and so I could kind of like watch what he did
[00:19:25] and see his mistakes and try not to repeat,
[00:19:29] because you gotta go home and deal with my dad.
[00:19:31] So my brother went to WVU, you know what I mean?
[00:19:34] He was gonna try the college thing
[00:19:36] and my brother was a lot smarter than I was.
[00:19:42] But still, he couldn't figure out
[00:19:44] that you have to go to class to like get a grade.
[00:19:48] Did he get recruited for baseball?
[00:19:50] Was he playing baseball there?
[00:19:51] No, no, no.
[00:19:53] He just went.
[00:19:54] Yeah, he was just going to college.
[00:19:55] So despite the efforts of your dad
[00:19:57] to turn you guys into baseball players
[00:20:00] that could play in college, he didn't play in college.
[00:20:04] No, and with my dad's aspect of,
[00:20:09] he more or less looked at it on the aspects
[00:20:12] of try to go straight farm league.
[00:20:15] Like, I would say that my dad,
[00:20:19] he kind of looked at it like you can always go to college.
[00:20:21] You can be 60 years old, man.
[00:20:23] You can go to college.
[00:20:24] You get one shot to play pro ball.
[00:20:27] And you know what I mean?
[00:20:29] And you try to get in, if you can get minor league
[00:20:32] kind of aspects, he always worried about
[00:20:35] like a college coach, you know what I mean?
[00:20:37] Of their pedigree.
[00:20:39] I mean, they can ruin, they can ruin a guy
[00:20:43] because in college, college coach, he's there to win.
[00:20:46] He's gonna throw you, he's gonna work you
[00:20:47] as much as possible because that's his job.
[00:20:50] And college baseball isn't necessarily
[00:20:53] like a big thing like college football.
[00:20:55] I mean, to play pro football, you gotta go to college.
[00:20:58] You gotta play college ball.
[00:20:59] You're not gonna go direct to where like baseball
[00:21:03] is more of a direct, you know, the Derek Jeter's,
[00:21:06] the Griffys, those kind of guys.
[00:21:08] You don't go to college.
[00:21:09] You go straight to the minor leagues
[00:21:11] and then you work your way through the minors.
[00:21:13] So that was more of, I would say my dad's
[00:21:15] kind of take on things was.
[00:21:17] But your brother decided to go to college.
[00:21:19] Yeah, he was gonna go to college.
[00:21:21] Again, my brother was really, he was good in school.
[00:21:24] My brother was a lot smarter than I was.
[00:21:26] He paid attention a lot more than I did.
[00:21:29] So he went to WVU, but like I said,
[00:21:32] he didn't go to class much.
[00:21:34] You know, college football games were great on Saturday
[00:21:37] kind of thing.
[00:21:37] I'd go up and hang out with my brother.
[00:21:40] And then he ended up, you know, not making the grades
[00:21:44] and they're like, yeah, you can't stay at school here anymore.
[00:21:49] So my brother, he joined the Air Force.
[00:21:52] He's like, yeah, well, you know,
[00:21:53] dad's like, yeah, not, you don't wanna hang out
[00:21:56] in the house here.
[00:21:57] Let's come back.
[00:21:58] So my brother joined the Air Force.
[00:21:59] And when he joined the Air Force,
[00:22:01] he was a worked on C-130s, crew chief stuff with C-130s.
[00:22:05] He was out of Dias, Texas.
[00:22:07] I mean, it seemed like a pretty good gig
[00:22:09] for what he was doing.
[00:22:11] And then for me, you know, when I was 17,
[00:22:15] I played on a couple of travel teams.
[00:22:17] And we were playing in Cincinnati.
[00:22:21] And, you know, regardless of my dad,
[00:22:25] I mean, I love my dad to death.
[00:22:27] But, you know, his nickname,
[00:22:28] yeah, between like me and my brother,
[00:22:30] and then we called him the dick.
[00:22:34] And love him to death.
[00:22:35] But I mean, you know, all my friends were like,
[00:22:37] dude, it must be so cool having like, you know,
[00:22:39] cause my dad's nickname was T-Bone.
[00:22:41] So they were like, dude, it's like so cool.
[00:22:43] Like, you know, your dad T-Bone.
[00:22:45] Cause everybody thought my dad was great.
[00:22:46] You know what I mean?
[00:22:47] Cause at all the games, you know,
[00:22:49] whether it was football, basketball, you name it.
[00:22:51] I mean, why did they call him T-Bone?
[00:22:52] Just cause his name Tom Baker.
[00:22:54] And he was, you know, six foot three, you know,
[00:22:56] hundred and, you know, 55 pounds.
[00:22:58] He looked like just a T-Bone coming off of a stake.
[00:23:02] And so they called him T-Bone.
[00:23:03] And everybody thought it was like the coolest thing.
[00:23:05] Well, it's like, well, dude,
[00:23:06] you didn't live with my dad.
[00:23:08] Like, of course he's cool outside of the house,
[00:23:11] but step into the house and live with this guy.
[00:23:14] I mean, and again, it was still, it was great.
[00:23:18] But, you know, my dad was, I mean, he was funny, humorous,
[00:23:22] you know, but yeah, I loved him to death, but he,
[00:23:26] we came back from playing in Cincinnati, Ohio.
[00:23:30] And, you know, I was throwing in a game.
[00:23:32] You know, my dad and I kind of got into it a little bit
[00:23:35] at the game.
[00:23:37] And I was like, I'm done.
[00:23:39] You know what I mean?
[00:23:39] I'm done.
[00:23:40] I came back.
[00:23:42] Went straight up 17.
[00:23:44] Went to the Marine Corps recruiting office.
[00:23:46] How'd you hear about the Marine Corps?
[00:23:48] I had a buddy of mine.
[00:23:50] Actually, I had quite a few friends of mine of our class.
[00:23:53] It was a lot that went in the Marine Corps.
[00:23:55] Rick Schenck was one of them.
[00:23:57] His dad was a Korean, Vietnam vet.
[00:23:59] He was an Army Ranger guy.
[00:24:02] But, you know, there was a lot of us
[00:24:03] that had looked at the military in a blue collar town
[00:24:08] like Huntington.
[00:24:09] It's a way out.
[00:24:11] You know what I mean?
[00:24:12] There's a lot of folks that joined the military to get out.
[00:24:15] You know what I mean?
[00:24:17] There's something bigger out there.
[00:24:19] And again, like I said, I loved camp.
[00:24:23] And, you know, I don't have to like...
[00:24:25] Those recruiters, man, they were licking their chops
[00:24:28] when you showed up.
[00:24:29] Oh, I was an idiot.
[00:24:30] They're like, oh, you like camp?
[00:24:31] We got camp for you, son.
[00:24:32] Yeah, I mean, I love camp.
[00:24:33] Yeah.
[00:24:34] Yeah, and they've got activities.
[00:24:36] Tents.
[00:24:37] They got tents.
[00:24:38] They give you all this free stuff, you get a gun.
[00:24:43] So yeah, I mean, I was like, oh, you know,
[00:24:45] when I came in there, I was like, you know,
[00:24:47] telling them to recruit, I was like,
[00:24:48] hey, I've got to be infantry.
[00:24:50] And, you know, and he's giving us the look like,
[00:24:52] oh, that's going to be a difficult one to get.
[00:24:54] You know what I mean?
[00:24:56] Because we didn't really know a lot.
[00:24:58] And, you know, and of course I can get you,
[00:25:01] you know, guaranteed, you know, infantry.
[00:25:04] You know, if you score high enough.
[00:25:05] He's taking care of you.
[00:25:06] Yeah, I'm thinking like this guy's the heat.
[00:25:08] Like he's hooking us up until I go to boot camp.
[00:25:12] You know what I mean?
[00:25:13] But then I'm 17, so I got to get a signature.
[00:25:15] So, so you're 17, you're 17.
[00:25:18] Are you done with high school?
[00:25:19] No, no, no, I still have my senior year to go.
[00:25:21] So I was like delayed entry.
[00:25:22] Okay.
[00:25:23] But I had to get my mom to sign.
[00:25:24] Uh-huh.
[00:25:25] And what mama say?
[00:25:26] Mom was all about.
[00:25:27] She's down for the cause.
[00:25:29] Just give me that paper.
[00:25:31] Let me get my signature out of here.
[00:25:33] Yeah.
[00:25:34] Yeah, why even waste your time?
[00:25:36] Yeah.
[00:25:37] Which was, you know, when you look back at like,
[00:25:39] at life of like a decision that you made,
[00:25:42] that was probably the smartest decision I ever made.
[00:25:46] Cause I would have been a shit show.
[00:25:48] For sure.
[00:25:49] Oh, I'm right there with you.
[00:25:50] Yeah.
[00:25:51] Thanks, thanks to my recruiter.
[00:25:53] I can't, I don't even remember anything about my recruiter.
[00:25:55] But I just would like to thank him.
[00:25:56] Even though he probably screwed me over.
[00:25:58] He's like, oh yeah, you're going to go
[00:25:59] into the SEAL team?
[00:26:00] Sure, buddy.
[00:26:00] Yeah, you look, oh yeah, you're going to make
[00:26:03] a great SEAL, right?
[00:26:05] That's bullshit.
[00:26:07] Like there's no way any recruiter knows
[00:26:09] if anyone has the remotest chance of making a, yeah.
[00:26:12] SEAL teams, you seem like the kind of guy
[00:26:13] that's going to do great there.
[00:26:14] It's like, yep, just sign this piece of paper.
[00:26:16] Sounds great.
[00:26:17] You know, recruiter or sir?
[00:26:19] So those guys are definitely hooking you up.
[00:26:20] But like, that's the same with me.
[00:26:23] That the greatest thing, probably like you said,
[00:26:25] the single pivot point of the trajectory of my life
[00:26:29] was signing that piece of paper and saying, yep, I'm in.
[00:26:32] And I remember, I signed up for six years.
[00:26:34] It was six years to get a SEAL, to get a BUDDS contract
[00:26:38] where you go to BUDDS.
[00:26:39] Actually all it was, actually all it was
[00:26:41] was you sign up for six years and that gives you a chance
[00:26:44] to take the screening test to possibly pass,
[00:26:46] to possibly go to BUDDS.
[00:26:47] That's what it was.
[00:26:48] And you know, you're thinking you're 18 years old.
[00:26:51] Like six years is a long, that's one third of your life.
[00:26:55] And I remember just thinking, well, whatever.
[00:26:57] Well, rock and roll, let's do this.
[00:26:59] But definitely a pivot point.
[00:27:01] That's interesting because they got me on the six year.
[00:27:05] But they gave you infantry?
[00:27:07] Yeah, I mean, guaranteed infantry.
[00:27:10] Guarantee.
[00:27:11] I wonder how many bonus points he got for that,
[00:27:13] that they're recruiting.
[00:27:15] So you roll in there, you enlist, now you're in.
[00:27:19] You have to go to debt meetings your whole senior year
[00:27:21] of high school or something like that?
[00:27:23] Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[00:27:23] We kind of meet on the weekends and go for runs
[00:27:27] and stuff like that.
[00:27:28] So basically, my senior year was,
[00:27:30] I mean, I think I took like four gym classes.
[00:27:33] You know, because I was like, okay, I'm done.
[00:27:37] Like this is what I'm gonna do.
[00:27:39] So why do I need to, and of course-
[00:27:41] Did you even play baseball your senior year?
[00:27:42] No, I quit everything.
[00:27:44] I mean, my dad was not happy.
[00:27:47] I was gonna say.
[00:27:48] Yeah, it was, but you know, he looked at it as,
[00:27:53] I don't think my dad was like a big fan of me
[00:27:57] making that decision of going in the Marines.
[00:28:02] But, you know, I mean, when I remember he took me down there
[00:28:06] to the recruiting office to drop me off,
[00:28:08] because I shipped like three days after graduation.
[00:28:11] Like the recruiter was standing at the graduation.
[00:28:14] So when I walked across and I got the piece of paper,
[00:28:17] you know, they gotta like take it to make copies.
[00:28:19] Yeah, he's there.
[00:28:20] Oh, he's there.
[00:28:21] But yeah.
[00:28:22] We get this in the Xerox machine, son.
[00:28:23] Well, the funny thing is, there's like six other
[00:28:25] of my classmates that are just as stupid as me,
[00:28:28] and we're all going to boot camp together.
[00:28:29] Which kind of made it fun.
[00:28:32] Yeah, so I had like Ricky Shank and Carrie Nessle
[00:28:34] are like literally in the same recruit platoon as me.
[00:28:37] Don't kid him.
[00:28:38] Yeah, so it was kind of fun to where,
[00:28:41] when you're seeing the drill instructor kind of,
[00:28:43] you know, give them a ration and you're over there
[00:28:45] trying not to laugh, but like what's going on
[00:28:48] and then they're doing the same thing to you.
[00:28:49] So it was kind of nice.
[00:28:52] Like I said, it was kind of like going to camp.
[00:28:54] You know what I mean? I had some of my friends there
[00:28:55] that I'd known since, you know, I grew up with them.
[00:28:59] And there was a, you know, so it was cool to have,
[00:29:02] you know, a couple of guys that I went to school with
[00:29:04] and ran around with a lot in my recruit platoon.
[00:29:09] But I didn't realize like, and we were all guaranteed
[00:29:11] infantry by the way.
[00:29:13] I mean, you know, they don't make them smart
[00:29:15] coming out of Huntington West Virginia.
[00:29:17] And the recruiter is probably just, you know, he's loving it.
[00:29:20] So until we like, they're announcing
[00:29:24] like your military MOS at the end, you know,
[00:29:27] the senior drill instructor stand up there.
[00:29:29] He's like, you know, Baker infantry, you know what I mean?
[00:29:32] He's like, guaranteed boy, you're some kind of stupid.
[00:29:35] You know what I mean?
[00:29:37] But, you know, back then like, I didn't really know
[00:29:39] that like there was other jobs like in the Marines.
[00:29:44] Cause I knew like, you know, Navy dock, you know,
[00:29:46] we get a lot of our stuff from the Navy.
[00:29:49] You know, I thought like everybody
[00:29:50] went in the Marine Corps to be infantry.
[00:29:52] And, you know, and then you got cooks.
[00:29:55] Every Marine rifleman to you is the facts.
[00:29:58] You can't say.
[00:29:59] Yeah.
[00:30:00] Is it everybody?
[00:30:00] How was boot camp when you showed up?
[00:30:02] Was it like a shocker?
[00:30:03] Were you like, holy shit?
[00:30:05] Or were you just like, hey, camp, let's do this?
[00:30:08] Yeah.
[00:30:09] Of course, you know, the shock and all of, you know,
[00:30:12] when they bring in, I went to Paris Island.
[00:30:15] When I flew out of the Huntington, it's the Tri-State
[00:30:20] airport of what they call it.
[00:30:21] And that was the first time I had ever been to an airport.
[00:30:25] And I don't know, you know, the history of Huntington,
[00:30:28] of Marshall University, you might have seen the We Are
[00:30:31] Marshall, the 1970 plane crash, the NCAA history,
[00:30:36] you know, most fatalities.
[00:30:39] And that was at that airport.
[00:30:41] So where I grew up, the whole Marshall University
[00:30:45] in that plane crash, November 14th, 1970,
[00:30:49] you know, every year in Huntington.
[00:30:51] I mean, it's a big deal for that Marshall plane crash.
[00:30:56] I had, you know, kids that I went to school with
[00:30:59] that, you know, their parents were on that plane.
[00:31:03] You know, it devastated the community in Huntington.
[00:31:07] And then here I am going to the airport, you know,
[00:31:10] and I was like, by the way, why can't we just like
[00:31:13] take a bus, it's South Carolina, man.
[00:31:15] You know what I mean?
[00:31:16] Like, can we just, so it was one of those props
[00:31:18] that's got like the little curtain that the, you know,
[00:31:21] the pilot like puts luggage on and then he takes the curtain
[00:31:24] and whips it over there to the side.
[00:31:26] And you know what I mean?
[00:31:27] And that almost stopped me from going to boot camp.
[00:31:32] I mean, I was like, this is ridiculous, man.
[00:31:34] Why are we flying?
[00:31:35] And so I got down there and then they bring in at night.
[00:31:39] You know, so you don't really know like where you're going.
[00:31:42] And it's, you know, coming on to Paris Island.
[00:31:44] And of course you hear all the mystique of Paris Island.
[00:31:47] And of course you remember Full Metal Jacket.
[00:31:48] It just came out when you and I were in high school.
[00:31:51] So of course, you know, that dude's like a stamina comic.
[00:31:55] You know what I mean?
[00:31:56] That movie was hilarious.
[00:31:57] You know what I mean?
[00:31:58] And I'd probably say that with the drill instructors are,
[00:32:03] they're stand up comics.
[00:32:05] I mean, some of the stuff that they do is just,
[00:32:08] it's Saturday Night Live, but it's like 18 hours
[00:32:11] of Saturday Night Live a day.
[00:32:12] And you're getting the end of the joke.
[00:32:16] You're the butt of all the jokes.
[00:32:17] Yeah, you're the butt of all the jokes.
[00:32:19] But it was still, it was a, it was, you know, the shock
[00:32:22] and all, but then once we kind of got into the rhythm
[00:32:24] of boot camp, then, you know, with the drill instructors.
[00:32:28] What year is this?
[00:32:29] Is this 87?
[00:32:30] 87.
[00:32:31] 87.
[00:32:32] Yep, June.
[00:32:33] So, you know, go the way until the winter time
[00:32:35] to make it a little bit more pleasant down there.
[00:32:37] But yeah, so we ended up there in June,
[00:32:40] graduated in August, you know, three months down there.
[00:32:45] And then went straight off to Camp Lejeune,
[00:32:48] went up to Camp Geiger's where the infantry school was
[00:32:52] at the time and went through, you know,
[00:32:53] Infantry Training School, 0311, you made it.
[00:32:57] How?
[00:32:58] How 311, you made it.
[00:33:02] How was that, how was that infantry school?
[00:33:04] Again, you know, kind of looking back on,
[00:33:12] I mean, it's so many like new Marines coming in
[00:33:17] that you don't really like get a lot of that
[00:33:20] individual education training.
[00:33:23] How long was the school?
[00:33:25] I think it was like 10 weeks, maybe.
[00:33:27] Did you have Vietnam guys teaching you or not really?
[00:33:31] Some of the older, like the E7s and E8s that were there
[00:33:35] were Vietnam era guys, but you know,
[00:33:38] like what you would call like the troop handlers
[00:33:42] or more like the corporals and the sergeants kind of.
[00:33:44] So those guys had come in in like the early 80s
[00:33:48] and were there, but the senior folks,
[00:33:51] yeah, they were Vietnam era guys.
[00:33:54] Did you think you were going to war at some point?
[00:33:59] Yeah, no.
[00:34:00] Yeah, I mean, never really even like crossed my mind,
[00:34:05] you know, at the point, you know, when,
[00:34:09] like I remember I listened to you when you had like,
[00:34:11] when you and Dave, when you had Dave Burke on,
[00:34:13] you were talking about like the top gun when like we grew up.
[00:34:16] I was more of the John Jay Rambo kind of like being John Jay
[00:34:21] kind of turned me on more than like Tom Cruise.
[00:34:24] Oh yeah, for sure.
[00:34:25] I mean, I couldn't relate to Tom Cruise.
[00:34:28] Yeah, I wanted like the green Odie green jacket
[00:34:31] where jeans boots get a big knife with like a compass
[00:34:34] on the top of it, you know what I mean?
[00:34:36] With matches in it.
[00:34:38] Yeah, I wanted to be John Jay.
[00:34:40] So, you know, those aspects of it were pretty interesting.
[00:34:46] Did you have like a global perspective of the world
[00:34:49] and think, well, you know, it's the, you know,
[00:34:53] Cold War is going on, you know, this could kick off.
[00:34:56] Did you, did you have any thoughts like that?
[00:34:59] Yeah, no.
[00:35:00] Yeah, I was gonna say, because I, you know,
[00:35:02] I joined in 1990.
[00:35:03] Now what changed for me was that the Gulf War was starting,
[00:35:06] right?
[00:35:07] So when I came in, it was like, oh, we're going on.
[00:35:10] I remember watching CNN and CNN is saying there's gonna be
[00:35:13] something like 30,000 casualties in the first 48 hours
[00:35:16] on our side.
[00:35:17] And I was like, oh, bro, we're going.
[00:35:19] Like I was thinking it's on.
[00:35:21] I'm gonna get some for sure.
[00:35:24] And then once that was over, it seemed like that I just
[00:35:28] seemed like, well, I'm gonna be doing some kind of secret
[00:35:30] shit's going on, you know, like the SEAL teams,
[00:35:32] come on, we're doing stuff worldwide all the time.
[00:35:35] There's secret missions going on.
[00:35:37] I'm obviously going to Vietnam and fighting whatever
[00:35:40] John Jay Rambo style for that stuff.
[00:35:43] But going to the Marine Corps 1987,
[00:35:47] the world was pretty, pretty peaceful at that time.
[00:35:50] Yeah, you know, in the Marines, we had one of the corporals
[00:35:55] that was there that was at the infantry school.
[00:35:58] He was a Beirut guy.
[00:36:00] So, you know, like back then, like Beirut was like,
[00:36:03] which was huge for the Marine Corps, you know, that incident.
[00:36:07] And so that was kind of, you know, Beirut and Granada
[00:36:11] were pretty much like the only two things.
[00:36:13] And if you weren't with like a specific one battalion,
[00:36:17] then everybody else in the Marine Corps, you know,
[00:36:19] they just had the overseas deployment ribbon
[00:36:22] with the good conduct.
[00:36:23] And that's it, you know what I mean?
[00:36:25] There wasn't any like solids hanging out
[00:36:29] except for the, you know, the Beirut guys.
[00:36:32] And then I would say that my first battalion I got sent to
[00:36:37] was second battalion, eighth Marines.
[00:36:39] And it was on Camp Geiger.
[00:36:40] And all that I did was was put my C-bag on my back
[00:36:43] and face to the right.
[00:36:44] And we just walked down to the eighth Marines barracks
[00:36:47] and it was open squad bay.
[00:36:49] That's where your first assignment was?
[00:36:51] Mm-hmm.
[00:36:51] That was second battalion, eighth Marines.
[00:36:52] That was on Camp Geiger.
[00:36:54] It was a eighth Marine regiment was on Geiger.
[00:36:56] Everybody else was on main side Camp Lejeune.
[00:36:59] And Geiger was open squad bay.
[00:37:02] So it was, and a lot of people talk about like being
[00:37:04] an open squad, I loved open squad.
[00:37:07] It was camp.
[00:37:07] Yeah.
[00:37:08] I mean, you know what I mean?
[00:37:09] What a camp.
[00:37:10] It was more camp.
[00:37:11] You know what I mean?
[00:37:12] I got up there, you know, you're in the platoon.
[00:37:13] You really get to know like the guys in the platoon
[00:37:16] because of the open squad bay.
[00:37:17] I mean, there's no hiding from anybody.
[00:37:20] It's not like at the end of the day,
[00:37:21] you go to your barracks room and you shut the door
[00:37:23] and it's just you and one other guy and the open squad bay.
[00:37:25] People can walk through it anytime.
[00:37:27] It's all your stuff's exposed.
[00:37:29] You get a foot locker and a wall locker and that's it.
[00:37:32] So you didn't really, you know, like nowadays,
[00:37:34] like kids move into their rooms and they got TVs,
[00:37:36] they got Xbox, they got all this kind of stuff.
[00:37:39] You couldn't have that stuff, you know,
[00:37:41] because you had one TV and the duty NCO controlled
[00:37:45] what channel it was on.
[00:37:48] But yeah, so it was pretty cool on those aspects.
[00:37:52] And then as soon as I got to Second Battalion,
[00:37:54] Eighth Marines, my first training op was cold weather training
[00:38:00] up the Bridgeport, California, which was banging.
[00:38:02] Yeah.
[00:38:04] You know what I mean?
[00:38:05] They got ski lifts up there.
[00:38:06] We're skiing.
[00:38:06] Of course that was the first time like you ski uphill,
[00:38:09] like with a pack, which that sucks.
[00:38:12] It's not as cool as you thought it was.
[00:38:12] Yeah, not as cool, you know what I mean?
[00:38:14] Like I wanted to go to like Tahoe and do some downhill.
[00:38:18] And then of course, you know, Marine Corps
[00:38:19] with our mountaineering skis are low as bitter.
[00:38:22] So it's like two by four strapped with a, you know what I mean?
[00:38:25] With a boot band wrapped around your Mickey Mouse boots.
[00:38:28] And you're going to head down the hill
[00:38:30] with a 90 pound Ruck-On and a rifle hanging off
[00:38:32] the front of you.
[00:38:34] That was the only point that I was really excited
[00:38:37] that I wasn't a machine gunner.
[00:38:39] You know what I mean?
[00:38:40] Like skiing with a machine gun.
[00:38:42] There's a whole other level.
[00:38:44] And how long were you at 28 for?
[00:38:48] I was at 28 for, I stayed from just at the end of 87,
[00:38:54] right into 89.
[00:38:56] Oh, so you did years there.
[00:38:57] This is your first assignment.
[00:38:59] Yeah.
[00:38:59] Yeah, this is my first battalion.
[00:39:01] What do you do?
[00:39:02] Did you go on deployment from there?
[00:39:04] Yep.
[00:39:04] So we did like the Bridgeport thing.
[00:39:06] You know, you do like your work up.
[00:39:07] But did you do, you do a work up?
[00:39:09] Did you go like get on a boat and go on deployment
[00:39:11] to the med or something like that?
[00:39:12] Well, we actually did Westpac because we came in,
[00:39:16] flew over to Oki and then my first boat ride
[00:39:19] was on the USS Fort McHenry.
[00:39:22] Right on.
[00:39:23] Which, you know, as a kid in camp,
[00:39:26] like I read, like, I enjoy reading and books on adventure.
[00:39:33] You know what I mean?
[00:39:34] And I always thought like,
[00:39:35] when I look at like a Navy ship,
[00:39:37] it's kind of like being in Huntington, West Virginia.
[00:39:40] It's a blue collar community, a float.
[00:39:44] So these are like all the guys, like in the Navy,
[00:39:46] like they got guys that like have jobs.
[00:39:49] Like they do stuff.
[00:39:50] Diesel mechanics.
[00:39:51] Yeah.
[00:39:52] You know what I mean?
[00:39:52] And like we're in the Pacific.
[00:39:55] You know what I mean?
[00:39:56] And it's just like, you get to see how small you actually are.
[00:40:01] But you know, being with the Navy,
[00:40:02] Marines don't have a job on the boat.
[00:40:04] You know what I mean?
[00:40:05] We get up, we are point of place of duty is in the rack.
[00:40:08] We stand in Chow line a lot.
[00:40:11] You know what I mean?
[00:40:12] It's like, get done with breakfast.
[00:40:13] What are you going to do?
[00:40:14] I'm going to go wait for lunch.
[00:40:15] Go wait for lunch.
[00:40:16] Stand in line and sit there with a book.
[00:40:18] And when the Navy gets pissed off
[00:40:20] that the Marines are laying around all over their stuff,
[00:40:22] they call general quarters and we go to the rack.
[00:40:25] And, you know, and they go to work.
[00:40:26] But yeah, I was always intrigued with the Navy.
[00:40:30] Like, you know, and then just the global of travel
[00:40:34] and like a Navy ship captain.
[00:40:37] Always seemed like a super cool job to have
[00:40:42] being a, you know, aboard a ship.
[00:40:44] And it's so blue collar.
[00:40:46] I mean, the guys in the Navy aboard the ships,
[00:40:48] you know, we floated Gator Navy.
[00:40:50] But they were like super great guys.
[00:40:53] They all had skill sets from, you know, electricians
[00:40:56] to the laundry, the cooks.
[00:40:58] I mean, it just, it was, it was like, you know,
[00:41:00] being in Pittsburgh, you know,
[00:41:02] except everybody doesn't have a mullet.
[00:41:04] You know what I mean?
[00:41:05] They got a haircut.
[00:41:06] And it's like you're a float with a blue collar town.
[00:41:10] And it was a, it was super cool.
[00:41:11] We went to Korea, you know what I mean?
[00:41:14] So, and that was one of the things that intrigued me
[00:41:15] about just joining the Marines was I was going to get
[00:41:18] the travel and get paid.
[00:41:21] Like, you know what I mean?
[00:41:22] I get to go to cool places and, you know,
[00:41:24] so, you know, going to Korea, going to Japan, Philippines,
[00:41:29] you know, those kind of aspects.
[00:41:30] And I'm getting a paycheck at the same time.
[00:41:32] Are you guys doing exercises there?
[00:41:33] We're just going to go ashore.
[00:41:34] Yeah, you know, like Team Spirit.
[00:41:35] You know, all those little names that they have for stuff
[00:41:38] because, you know, we're fighting Ivan.
[00:41:39] So everything's in Ivan.
[00:41:42] And, you know, we just, we go out, we go to the field,
[00:41:45] we run exercises, we come back, and then we get like,
[00:41:48] you know, like four or five days off.
[00:41:51] And in 88, the Olympics were in Seoul, Korea.
[00:41:54] So that was-
[00:41:55] So you were there for that?
[00:41:57] Yeah, like-
[00:41:57] Did you guys work security or anything or no?
[00:41:59] No, no, yeah.
[00:42:01] The Marines stay down in Po-hang,
[00:42:04] right outside of Po-hang, and it was called Camp Moonchuck.
[00:42:07] We called it Mudchuck.
[00:42:10] You were still burning shitters there.
[00:42:12] Yeah, I mean, it was primitive camp.
[00:42:17] This is where you guys, when the ship pulled in,
[00:42:19] that's where you went?
[00:42:20] Yep, Navy would kick us off, you know what I mean?
[00:42:23] And then we'd go into Camp Mudchuck,
[00:42:25] and we'd go into there.
[00:42:27] But, you know, and then they had ranges.
[00:42:28] We would, you know, do company exercises,
[00:42:30] battalion exercises, grenade range.
[00:42:32] And you're a straight rifleman in a platoon.
[00:42:34] You're a straight rifleman.
[00:42:35] That's it, rifleman.
[00:42:37] Did you like being a rifleman?
[00:42:39] I loved it.
[00:42:40] I mean, it's all, I mean, like being a rifleman,
[00:42:42] you just get a rifle.
[00:42:43] Yeah.
[00:42:45] It was super, yeah, it was super cool.
[00:42:47] The guys in a platoon, you know,
[00:42:49] you got all these different characters,
[00:42:51] just from all over, that just make things like so interesting.
[00:42:55] Just, you know, of hearing the stories
[00:42:58] and their background, where they grew up.
[00:43:01] You know, and back then,
[00:43:02] we didn't really intermix a lot with like the platoon commander.
[00:43:05] Mm-hmm.
[00:43:06] You know what I mean?
[00:43:07] Like our biggest is usually like your squad leader,
[00:43:11] because he controls your life.
[00:43:13] And then the platoon sergeant is a big role.
[00:43:16] And, you know, like the lieutenant,
[00:43:18] you'd like see him at like formation or something.
[00:43:20] You know what I mean?
[00:43:21] Because like you didn't stay in the same,
[00:43:24] you know, officers are segregated out, you know,
[00:43:27] and then you just, what we, you know,
[00:43:29] they're not in cell block.
[00:43:30] You know what I mean?
[00:43:31] Like we're hanging out.
[00:43:32] This is back when the Marines had,
[00:43:34] didn't you have name tags on their uniforms?
[00:43:37] No.
[00:43:38] It was just like, what's your name?
[00:43:39] My name is Corporal.
[00:43:40] Yeah, that's it.
[00:43:42] You can call me Marine if you want.
[00:43:44] Yeah.
[00:43:45] I rode to point on ships,
[00:43:46] because I did a few deployments,
[00:43:47] or I did three deployments on ships with Marines
[00:43:49] and one with the carrier strike group.
[00:43:52] But yeah, the Marines were just,
[00:43:53] the other, I have to tell the story.
[00:43:55] We, you know, there's a pain to get off the ship
[00:43:57] when you pulled in, when you hit the pier,
[00:43:59] because as soon as they rang the Liberty Bell,
[00:44:00] everyone was in line to get out.
[00:44:02] And it would take like an hour or more
[00:44:04] to get to get through that line.
[00:44:06] So we used to, ship pulls in, gets pier aside.
[00:44:10] As soon as they call for Liberty,
[00:44:11] we'd go to the gym and get a good workout
[00:44:13] because the ship's not moving.
[00:44:15] And there's no one in there
[00:44:16] because everyone's trying to go on Liberty.
[00:44:17] So there's one time we do that, you know,
[00:44:19] get down, go, go work out, get down, take a shower,
[00:44:22] put on our Liberty clothes.
[00:44:23] It's been like an hour and a half.
[00:44:25] And we go up to the quarter deck to leave.
[00:44:28] And they're carrying a Marine back who was so wasted.
[00:44:32] He got wasted in an hour and a half.
[00:44:34] He was unconscious drunk, bro.
[00:44:36] That's how hard he was going in the paint.
[00:44:39] So that's, you know, good times with Marine Corps.
[00:44:42] That's usually every, every port call.
[00:44:45] I mean, somebody's going to ruin it.
[00:44:48] And, and the thing that I used to always tell the Marine,
[00:44:50] I mean, it's almost like being in jail.
[00:44:53] Like if you go to the first port call
[00:44:56] and you, you're done training in the first hour and a half
[00:44:59] and then you get restricted to the boat
[00:45:00] for six months of restriction.
[00:45:02] I mean, that's prison.
[00:45:03] Yeah. That's a sentence.
[00:45:05] You know, everybody else is like, you know,
[00:45:07] hitting it and, you know, but it's, you know,
[00:45:10] when you, when you, when you keep everybody, you know,
[00:45:12] caged up down there and cell block
[00:45:15] and you're crossing the pond.
[00:45:17] And then, you know, you hit this Liberty port
[00:45:19] and you're like, I mean, you're, you're 18, 19 years old.
[00:45:23] And you're, you're legal drinking age everywhere in the world,
[00:45:26] but here, you know what I mean?
[00:45:28] And, and of course, you know, and,
[00:45:30] but you've been in like training.
[00:45:32] So, you know, through boot camp and infantry schools.
[00:45:34] So it's not like, and you can't have beer in a barracks
[00:45:36] because I lived in an open squad base.
[00:45:38] So it wasn't like we even had refrigerators.
[00:45:41] Yeah. So any chance you got
[00:45:42] for like two and a half, three years living
[00:45:44] in an open Bay barracks.
[00:45:46] Yeah. Oh yeah. It was, loved it.
[00:45:49] I mean, we used to like take the wall lockers.
[00:45:52] Those old gray wall lock and put them up against the walls.
[00:45:55] And, you know, and we would play hardball baseball.
[00:45:58] Like cause you couldn't break anything.
[00:46:01] I mean, it was like, you know, just the antics that went on.
[00:46:04] And, you know, the only bad, you know, like back then
[00:46:06] you could still smoke in the government areas.
[00:46:09] And even on ship, I mean, I can remember being on the boats
[00:46:12] and just like you'd go into the, to the cell block area
[00:46:15] where the Marines are down there.
[00:46:16] And there's just like that haze of smoke across the top.
[00:46:20] But, you know, a guy's just laying around with a like Coke can
[00:46:24] flicking ashes in it.
[00:46:25] You know, it was a, it was a different, different world.
[00:46:29] Did you, did you know you were like,
[00:46:31] do you found your place when you got in the Marine Corps?
[00:46:33] Were you like, oh, this is, I'm good.
[00:46:35] I've got my job forever.
[00:46:37] Yeah. Yeah.
[00:46:39] I mean, it was like, I'm going to just go to camp
[00:46:42] for the rest of my life.
[00:46:43] Yeah. And the funny thing was, is, you know, you, you know,
[00:46:47] we, you talked about Al Gray.
[00:46:49] So this is 87.
[00:46:51] He became the commandant while I was in boot camp.
[00:46:55] So, I mean, you talk about just that a different kind of guy
[00:47:00] of, of Al Gray.
[00:47:01] I mean, it's what a lot of us consider the second enlightenment
[00:47:04] of the Marine Corps.
[00:47:06] And this guy is all about education.
[00:47:10] You know, he's all about, he wants a university.
[00:47:13] You know, I mean, I give it probably the coolest story
[00:47:16] of Al Gray.
[00:47:17] I met him in 89.
[00:47:20] First battalion six Marines were looking for folks to do
[00:47:23] contingency operations in Panama.
[00:47:25] Noriega was running the joint down there.
[00:47:27] So I left two eight, joined one six to be able to go do
[00:47:32] contingency operations in Panama.
[00:47:34] You know what I mean?
[00:47:35] I thought one Panama triple canopy jungle,
[00:47:37] it's got to be cool.
[00:47:39] You know, I mean, and it was just another experience
[00:47:44] to be able to.
[00:47:44] I went to one six and I was down there.
[00:47:49] And we stayed at the Rodman Naval Air Force,
[00:47:53] Naval base down there right on the canal.
[00:47:55] They had a Howard Air Force base that's down there.
[00:47:57] And then the Marines operated out of what was called
[00:48:00] the Aerehan Tank Farm.
[00:48:02] It kind of looked like if you flew over top of it,
[00:48:05] it looked like a golf course cut in the middle of the jungle.
[00:48:08] Well, it was all like the tanks for refueling,
[00:48:12] coming through the canal.
[00:48:14] And just seeing the Panama Canal was like the greatest
[00:48:17] engineering like I had ever seen like before.
[00:48:22] Cause it used to be the Panama path.
[00:48:25] You know, they used to just walk across
[00:48:27] cause it was the skinniest point.
[00:48:28] And to watch the locks and the ships come through
[00:48:31] the canal was just amazing.
[00:48:34] So, you know, for a 19 year old kid,
[00:48:36] like seeing the Panama Canal and, you know,
[00:48:39] reading about it, it was just,
[00:48:40] it was an amazing experience.
[00:48:42] But we would go out and you were on like a six day rotation.
[00:48:46] And, you know, you did two days in the fob,
[00:48:49] which was just out in the middle of the jungle.
[00:48:51] It was the Ford operating base.
[00:48:53] And then you would do two days on patrol.
[00:48:55] And then they'd bring you back for two days in the rear.
[00:48:58] And you were just on this rotation.
[00:48:59] And there was just a company of Marines down there.
[00:49:02] I was in Navy, Navy SEALs were down there.
[00:49:04] You know, they had Army folks down there.
[00:49:07] But that was our assignment.
[00:49:09] And I remember Al Gray, it was the commandant
[00:49:13] and I was in the fob.
[00:49:15] And I'm sitting in the fighting position.
[00:49:18] We had fighting positions around there.
[00:49:19] So I was, you know, man in the fighting positions,
[00:49:21] me and one other guy in the heat taps going down,
[00:49:23] it's getting dark.
[00:49:24] And we kind of concede like this entourage
[00:49:27] of people milling about the area.
[00:49:29] And it just not, it's not making too much sense of like,
[00:49:33] like who is this?
[00:49:34] Well, next thing you know, this older guy,
[00:49:36] I mean, it's a dark out.
[00:49:37] I really don't know who it is.
[00:49:39] Hops down in the fighting position with me.
[00:49:43] And he's like, hey, who are you?
[00:49:44] I was like, oh, J.D. Baker.
[00:49:47] You know what I mean?
[00:49:48] And he's like, oh, how's things going?
[00:49:50] I was like, who are you?
[00:49:52] I was like, Al Gray.
[00:49:54] And hmm, name sounds familiar.
[00:49:57] You know what I mean?
[00:49:58] Cause like, you know, Al Gray was just, you know,
[00:50:01] Al Gray Marine.
[00:50:02] I mean, that's just how he went by.
[00:50:05] And he was a prior enlisted, you know, infantry,
[00:50:09] made it all the way to Sergeant.
[00:50:10] And they thought he'd make a good officer.
[00:50:11] So they sent him to OCS and made his way up
[00:50:14] through the ranks from New Jersey.
[00:50:17] He was a baseball player.
[00:50:18] So he started asking me just, I mean,
[00:50:21] of anything going on, just asked me like,
[00:50:23] who are my parents?
[00:50:24] Like what's my dad do?
[00:50:26] What's my mom do?
[00:50:27] Kind of like the stuff how you and I,
[00:50:29] when we first got on, just started asking me
[00:50:30] those personal questions.
[00:50:32] And when I told him about my dad with baseball,
[00:50:34] he was like, you know, he like lit up like,
[00:50:37] cause he was like, you know,
[00:50:38] I played semi pro baseball up in New Jersey.
[00:50:41] They call, he was called the Pelican Pounder.
[00:50:44] He was a hell of an,
[00:50:46] Pelican Pounder.
[00:50:46] Yeah. He played for the Pelicans.
[00:50:48] It was semi pro team up there.
[00:50:50] And he literally, years later,
[00:50:52] I was up at his house in Alexandria
[00:50:53] and he's showing me the front page picture.
[00:50:56] He had the clipping, you know, the Pelican Pounder,
[00:50:58] Al Gray, which was pretty cool to see.
[00:51:01] So he was a big baseball guy.
[00:51:03] And for me being an E3, I was the last corporal
[00:51:06] at that time with the comment on the Marine Corps.
[00:51:09] I have now had a relationship with that guy for 35 years,
[00:51:15] which was just amazing.
[00:51:16] He was just a different.
[00:51:18] How did you stay in touch with him after that?
[00:51:21] He just reconnect with him later.
[00:51:22] He's always been around the Marine Corps.
[00:51:25] Like, you know, Al Gray has just,
[00:51:27] Oh, for sure.
[00:51:28] Yeah. I mean, he's just one of those guys like,
[00:51:30] we could be sitting in here doing this podcast.
[00:51:32] And next thing you know, he'd just show up.
[00:51:33] I mean, because that's how he was.
[00:51:35] It's like a comedot.
[00:51:36] He didn't tell people when he was going places.
[00:51:39] I mean, he just, his career was the first one
[00:51:42] to just take his official photo and camis.
[00:51:45] You know, the kind of guy that he was,
[00:51:50] that really had a big effect on me
[00:51:53] was when he was the Comedon of the Marine Corps
[00:51:56] on the weekend, he was out front of his Comedon's house
[00:51:59] at eighth and I, you know, down in Southeast DC.
[00:52:02] And he's out doing the gardening
[00:52:05] at the front of the house.
[00:52:06] And this elderly black woman that lived down the street
[00:52:11] was walking by and she was, you know, stopped and said,
[00:52:15] hello. And, you know, Al Gray was like, hey, how you doing?
[00:52:17] Didn't say like who he was.
[00:52:19] She just thought he was the gardener.
[00:52:21] And she's like, man, I've lived here in South DCC
[00:52:24] my entire life.
[00:52:25] And I've always wondered what it looks like
[00:52:28] on the inside of that house.
[00:52:30] So Al Gray was kind of like, interesting.
[00:52:33] So goes to a staff meeting on Monday
[00:52:35] and he's like, I'm having a garden party
[00:52:37] and I'm inviting all my neighbors.
[00:52:41] So they send out invitations to block radiuses all around.
[00:52:45] You know, eighth and I, and he's inviting,
[00:52:47] of course, you know, he's got staff guys going,
[00:52:49] okay, we're going to put a rope here.
[00:52:50] Let's take this thing down.
[00:52:51] I mean, cause they got a lot of like a
[00:52:52] Chesty pullers underwear in there or something.
[00:52:54] I don't want somebody to take, you know what I mean?
[00:52:56] Al Gray's like, no, man, these are my neighbors.
[00:52:59] Like, do you, like when your neighbors come over,
[00:53:02] do you put stuff away?
[00:53:03] Do you put ropes up and they're only allowed
[00:53:05] in certain sections of your house?
[00:53:07] These are my neighbors.
[00:53:08] And sure enough, man, he has his party
[00:53:11] and the neighbors are all coming in.
[00:53:12] And here's that elderly black woman comes in
[00:53:14] and who she meet at the door.
[00:53:16] Al Gray, she thought he was the gardener.
[00:53:19] And there he is.
[00:53:20] I mean, when they got done with the end of the event,
[00:53:22] not one thing was stolen, nothing broken.
[00:53:24] You know what I mean? And the Marines up at eighth and I
[00:53:27] weren't having any more problems out in town anymore
[00:53:29] with the neighbors in and around Southeast DC.
[00:53:31] It was just an extended hand of these are our neighbors.
[00:53:35] And that's kind of sums up of like who Al Gray is.
[00:53:39] So he had a huge effect on the Marine Corps
[00:53:43] just in that four year period of time.
[00:53:46] And I just got lucky enough to meet him in Panama in 89
[00:53:51] and just stayed in contact of it.
[00:53:55] And his memory is just like he could remember
[00:53:58] like exact dates, names of it.
[00:54:03] The guy's got a phenomenal memory
[00:54:05] and he was self-educated.
[00:54:08] You know what I mean?
[00:54:08] He was number one thing was the library.
[00:54:11] You know what I mean?
[00:54:12] Get a book, read it.
[00:54:13] And now Marine Corps has the reading list,
[00:54:16] which is kind of cool.
[00:54:17] We got a lot of cool books on there.
[00:54:19] You know what I mean?
[00:54:20] You go through the different grade levels
[00:54:22] and you can get books.
[00:54:23] And the Marine Corps was always really big
[00:54:26] into their history and big into the reading,
[00:54:28] which one that fell in line with me, love history,
[00:54:32] love the reading aspect of it.
[00:54:34] And reading, if this is gonna be your trade,
[00:54:36] if this is what you're gonna do,
[00:54:38] then you need to read a lot of books.
[00:54:41] And I had some other officers, one Eric Carlson,
[00:54:45] he told me to cast my net widely.
[00:54:48] Like don't just pigeonhole,
[00:54:51] like just don't read all military.
[00:54:54] You know what I mean?
[00:54:55] So cast your net widely so you get a different perspective
[00:55:00] on different things.
[00:55:01] And so that was pretty cool with Eric and casting my net.
[00:55:09] So I mean, I read from Danielle Steele,
[00:55:12] anything that I could get my hands on
[00:55:15] just to be able to read.
[00:55:17] And the imagination, Rudyard Kipling,
[00:55:21] Henry David Thoreau.
[00:55:23] I even read some theoretical physicists,
[00:55:26] the cork and the jaguar, which was like,
[00:55:29] that'd be a cool job to be like a theoretical fit,
[00:55:32] just like sitting in a room like this.
[00:55:34] And I just thank for eight hours of stuff and go back.
[00:55:39] But that was pretty cool.
[00:55:42] Where were you when the invasion went down in Panama?
[00:55:45] We were, the invasion, we were back,
[00:55:49] stay side because we were rotated in.
[00:55:51] You went down on a 90 day tour.
[00:55:54] You did a 90 day and then rotated back.
[00:55:58] So that was in 89.
[00:56:00] But that was also, I was a fire team leader.
[00:56:04] So that was like my first go around being a fire team leader.
[00:56:08] And that was probably my first realization,
[00:56:11] even though like nothing happened.
[00:56:14] Like we didn't get any gunfights while we were down there.
[00:56:16] There was events that were taking place, just me personally.
[00:56:19] I didn't have any events.
[00:56:22] But when you get issued live ammo
[00:56:25] and you take the BFA off, you know what I mean?
[00:56:28] It got real.
[00:56:30] Like then I was kind of like, okay,
[00:56:31] this isn't like camp anymore.
[00:56:34] You know what I mean?
[00:56:36] But being in triple canopy down there,
[00:56:38] and we went, they used to have Fort Sherman,
[00:56:41] the army base that was down there.
[00:56:42] And you'd go through jungle warfare
[00:56:45] and jungle survival, a phenomenal place.
[00:56:47] You know, when they take you down there,
[00:56:48] they got like this little zoo
[00:56:50] that they like show you the animals
[00:56:52] that you can encounter while you're there.
[00:56:55] It wasn't the Panamanian Defense Force
[00:56:57] that we were scared of.
[00:56:58] It was the creatures in that jungle.
[00:57:02] We're like seeing like the Anaconda.
[00:57:05] You know what I mean?
[00:57:06] I was like, that's a big snake.
[00:57:08] I was lucky when I was at SEAL Team One,
[00:57:10] we were like the designated Southeast Asia team.
[00:57:15] And so we were supposed to be ready for the jungle.
[00:57:17] And in our platoon workup, getting ready to deploy,
[00:57:20] we went and did like a month in Panama.
[00:57:22] We went to that zoo, all that stuff went through that,
[00:57:24] our army jungle survival training.
[00:57:29] I don't know if we went through like a full school,
[00:57:30] but it was like a couple, like a day and a half
[00:57:31] or something like this.
[00:57:32] They're showing you what to watch out for
[00:57:34] and all that kind of stuff, but it was awesome.
[00:57:37] You know, then we just went out
[00:57:38] and lived in the jungle for like a month.
[00:57:40] And we had a little base camp set up
[00:57:42] and we go out and do our training throughout the day.
[00:57:44] We would do occasion, we'd try and do night
[00:57:47] immediate action drills, which is like completely black.
[00:57:50] There's no night vision days, you know,
[00:57:51] just completely black running through the jungle,
[00:57:54] sending up a loom, you know, hitting trees
[00:57:57] with your loom by accident.
[00:57:58] Cause I was a radio missile, I was always firing a loom.
[00:58:01] It was freaking awesome.
[00:58:03] You get good when you spend that much time
[00:58:06] in the field, you get good at it.
[00:58:08] Yeah. And doing the three months down there,
[00:58:10] that's where I would say that I got good
[00:58:13] at being an infantryman.
[00:58:16] But it was, yeah, that's amazing.
[00:58:18] You're talking about like, you know, the,
[00:58:20] cause when it got dark,
[00:58:21] oh, it's, I mean,
[00:58:22] it's remember that the is black.
[00:58:24] Well, dude, you remember those MVGs we had back then
[00:58:27] to where it like the starlight scope to where, okay, well,
[00:58:29] one, it requires starlight.
[00:58:31] We didn't even use those down there.
[00:58:33] And then you'd be in the radio operators.
[00:58:35] I don't know what you got.
[00:58:36] But remember we had the 77s, the prick 77s, the 104s,
[00:58:40] you know what I mean to where like you had to be good.
[00:58:43] Oh yeah. You had to have skills.
[00:58:45] Yeah. I mean, it's a skill set to run.
[00:58:47] Like when I look at the communications
[00:58:49] that these folks have nowadays, it's like, wow,
[00:58:52] like trying to get a comm shot with a 77 or a 104 was,
[00:58:57] that's when the communicators had some serious skill sets
[00:59:02] to be able to manipulate and operate comm,
[00:59:04] especially down there.
[00:59:06] That was the first time is like being a team leader.
[00:59:08] I had to do like, you know, patrol overlays.
[00:59:12] So I had to, I had to get good at my job.
[00:59:15] And, and that I would say that that probably was the,
[00:59:19] the pinnacle of like those three months, but down there,
[00:59:22] that's when I became an infantryman.
[00:59:25] You know, as, as what we would call it,
[00:59:27] because in 0311 is you're a scout is basically,
[00:59:31] is pretty much what you are.
[00:59:33] And then that had a big effect on me as being a Marine
[00:59:39] of what's important as far as like training
[00:59:42] and education wise of becoming a professional
[00:59:45] infantryman was really big.
[00:59:47] So it's not too long after that,
[00:59:49] that the goal four starts heating up the first goal four.
[00:59:53] Yes.
[00:59:54] And so where, how do you, how do you slot into that?
[00:59:55] You're at one six now.
[00:59:57] Yeah. I'm same battalion.
[00:59:58] I was in Panama with, we got a new platoon start
[01:00:01] when we came back, that guy, his name was Eli Tucker.
[01:00:05] His nickname was Eli Tucker, the big motherfucker.
[01:00:09] Cause that dude was jacked, you know what I mean?
[01:00:12] And just ruthless, but a hell of an,
[01:00:14] he had a huge impact on me.
[01:00:17] He was a Sergeant E five, but that guy, when, when,
[01:00:21] when you, like, if you look up Marine infantrymen
[01:00:23] in the dictionary, it's Eli Tucker is in that book.
[01:00:27] He's just a phenomenal guy, both up and down the ladder.
[01:00:30] He pulled respect from the officers as well as,
[01:00:35] as any enlisted in that battalion.
[01:00:38] And, and so he was my platoon Sergeant.
[01:00:40] We were on, on deployment again over in the Far East.
[01:00:43] And we hopped in, we were in the Philippines and Noriega
[01:00:48] decided to add on to his, you know, Southern property.
[01:00:51] So he,
[01:00:52] Oh, you mean Saddam?
[01:00:53] Yeah, Saddam. I mean, yeah.
[01:00:54] So he takes over, he goes over, snatches up Kuwait.
[01:00:58] We're in the Philippines.
[01:00:59] They throw us on the USS broken.
[01:01:01] I was the Oganawa and we steam around and they kick us
[01:01:05] off the boat and we're in country right there coming
[01:01:08] in September.
[01:01:09] So it went down in August.
[01:01:11] They had us in.
[01:01:12] We were one of the first Marine battalions.
[01:01:15] They hit the ground in Saudi Arabia.
[01:01:18] And then it was just,
[01:01:20] So did you stay there the whole time?
[01:01:22] Yes.
[01:01:23] How long were, how long were you there for?
[01:01:24] Like seven and a half months.
[01:01:26] We, yeah, it was terrible. It was,
[01:01:30] Do you live in an tent in the desert?
[01:01:32] Basically,
[01:01:32] We didn't even have to test.
[01:01:33] Yeah. We had those radar scattering nets kind of things.
[01:01:36] So you just, you know, in a poncho.
[01:01:38] Yeah, we were just for,
[01:01:40] For how long did you live like that?
[01:01:42] We were out there for like over seven months.
[01:01:46] Yeah, it was terrible.
[01:01:47] And you had to have a cot, you know,
[01:01:49] those little green cots because the,
[01:01:50] the desert sand was just so hot.
[01:01:53] But the cool thing was about the battalion, you know,
[01:01:55] we kind of talked about earlier.
[01:01:57] My battalion commander was Lieutenant Colonel Jones.
[01:02:01] His, his initials were TC's.
[01:02:04] We called him too cool.
[01:02:06] And Jones was a phenomenal battalion commander.
[01:02:12] Jones with, with, he was the kind of guy
[01:02:15] that he'd like knew everybody in the battalion.
[01:02:18] He knew where you were from.
[01:02:19] He knew a little bit about, he was very personable.
[01:02:23] So, you know, and that was almost like every Marine battalions,
[01:02:27] their leadership were all Vietnam vets.
[01:02:31] So they knew what was important of what we needed to know.
[01:02:36] There wasn't, you know,
[01:02:38] and then you go up to the regimental level
[01:02:40] and then you've got Al Gray as the commandant.
[01:02:43] You know, you got Storm and Norman Swarshkoff,
[01:02:46] you know what I mean?
[01:02:47] Army commander and then joint chiefs.
[01:02:49] You got Colm Powell kind of run.
[01:02:51] So it's almost like the stars have aligned.
[01:02:55] You know, when some folks are like, yeah, Desert Storm was like,
[01:02:57] what, like 96 hours.
[01:02:59] There's a reason for that.
[01:03:01] Because of those guys are like, yeah,
[01:03:03] we're not doing this one again.
[01:03:05] And I mean, when, when we were, it was a long wait.
[01:03:09] That was a.
[01:03:09] And what are you doing while you're waiting?
[01:03:10] Just training every day, prepping, getting ready.
[01:03:13] Trying, yep.
[01:03:13] Trying on your gas mask.
[01:03:15] Trying on your gas mask again.
[01:03:16] Trying on your gas mask again.
[01:03:18] Did you get, were you guys hearing this casualty thing
[01:03:20] that I saw on CNN?
[01:03:21] Like, hey, there's going to be mass casualties.
[01:03:23] Were you expecting that?
[01:03:23] Were they briefing you on that?
[01:03:25] Yeah, they actually flew in a whole bunch of replacements
[01:03:29] right prior to the ground war kicking off.
[01:03:31] And we're like, what are these dudes doing here?
[01:03:33] You know what I mean?
[01:03:34] And they're like, oh, these are the replacement guys.
[01:03:36] You know what I mean?
[01:03:37] Of coming in.
[01:03:37] So, you know, I would probably say like,
[01:03:40] I got, I got really sick of the gas mask.
[01:03:43] But when they show you like photos and stuff of like
[01:03:46] what people look like with blister agent and like,
[01:03:50] that was like a, that was a real threat.
[01:03:52] Like everybody was like scared for those aspects
[01:03:55] of the chemical mines and arbitrage.
[01:03:57] And we had the mine belts of blowing the mine belts
[01:04:01] that were out there, which was interesting within itself.
[01:04:06] You know, when-
[01:04:07] So that was your mission?
[01:04:08] Yeah.
[01:04:09] Well, we had to get through those mine belts first.
[01:04:11] So there was two big mine belts.
[01:04:13] So we got the, we're all, everybody's mecked up.
[01:04:16] And you got the lines that can shoot over the back
[01:04:21] of the Amtrak's and detonate.
[01:04:24] And then it give you a kind of a lane kind of a thing
[01:04:26] to go through.
[01:04:28] Some of them worked, some of them didn't.
[01:04:29] So we had that, yeah, we had tanks that were there with us.
[01:04:33] The tanks that were attached to us.
[01:04:34] I remember their call sign,
[01:04:35] because it was public enemy, which was like a super,
[01:04:39] like you're going to be like a tank guy.
[01:04:41] That's like a, that's a cool.
[01:04:42] That's a great call sign.
[01:04:43] A great call sign, like public enemy.
[01:04:46] And you know, those guys would come through
[01:04:47] and push the plows.
[01:04:49] And just the air power, the amount of support
[01:04:53] and being an 0-311, like on the ground,
[01:04:56] I felt like I didn't even need a gun.
[01:04:59] I mean, the kitchen sink was being thrown at these folks.
[01:05:02] I mean, they were just, it was all on.
[01:05:05] It was like a live fire exercise.
[01:05:07] So when it kicked off, what was your platoon's mission?
[01:05:12] Breaching, getting through.
[01:05:14] And then they had like on the other side of the mine belts
[01:05:16] was defensive positions for the Iraqis.
[01:05:19] So we all had certain objectives that we kind of had to hit.
[01:05:23] And you know, just to get through the mine belts,
[01:05:25] they thought it would take like days for us
[01:05:28] to get through the mine belts, not a couple of hours.
[01:05:31] And then we had the Army's Tiger Brigade
[01:05:34] that was following up.
[01:05:35] They were the ones that were going to do the big left,
[01:05:38] the big left hook going up into Iraq with,
[01:05:40] I mean, I'd never seen so many Bradley's M1 Abrams.
[01:05:44] Cause remember that's when the M1 came out, the Abram,
[01:05:47] which that thing is, that's a bad ass piece of gear.
[01:05:51] And just, so we did the mine belts, they broke left,
[01:05:53] they start heading up to Iraq.
[01:05:55] And we're, when we hit the objectives
[01:05:59] for our company objectives.
[01:06:01] And so these are like little Iraqi positions.
[01:06:03] These were your company objectives.
[01:06:05] Was like little pill boxes or whatever.
[01:06:07] Yeah, if even that, I mean,
[01:06:09] they had been sitting out there for so,
[01:06:10] like we had these extravagant,
[01:06:12] like what we thought we were going to encounter.
[01:06:15] And then what we actually encountered were not the same.
[01:06:20] Like some couple of sandbags and a dude with an AK.
[01:06:22] Yeah, I mean, and they were like in living quarters.
[01:06:25] Like they had been out there so long, just like us.
[01:06:28] Like you're just trying to make your life comfortable.
[01:06:31] So get some plywood, you know what I mean?
[01:06:33] Dig a hole, put it over top of it.
[01:06:35] You know what I mean?
[01:06:36] Make a nice little area.
[01:06:37] You know, you can brew up ramen, you got your coffee,
[01:06:41] that kind of stuff.
[01:06:41] They're just basically out there living.
[01:06:43] And the frontline troops like weren't the Republican guard
[01:06:47] guys, they had those guys behind them to make sure
[01:06:49] that they didn't run away.
[01:06:52] And so, you know, as soon as you start coming through,
[01:06:54] it's basically we hit them and they were like,
[01:06:56] They were like flags.
[01:06:58] Oh yeah.
[01:06:59] I mean, because they were like,
[01:07:00] oh my God, they're here already.
[01:07:03] You know, like their coffee pot was like still warm.
[01:07:06] You know what I mean?
[01:07:07] When we rolled in and then it was just a Rolex.
[01:07:11] I mean, once we went through the, of course, you know,
[01:07:13] everybody, you know, you're scared.
[01:07:15] I mean, you know, when you're on the other side
[01:07:17] of the mind belts and they're dropping artillery
[01:07:19] and those sorts of things are coming on.
[01:07:21] So you can hear the explosions, you know,
[01:07:24] they set the oil fields on fire.
[01:07:27] So you've just got like that oil fields
[01:07:29] and the black smoke and all that kind of.
[01:07:31] So it's like.
[01:07:32] Were you freaking stoked?
[01:07:34] Like, yeah, to be there and just like hell yeah.
[01:07:38] Yeah.
[01:07:39] And then let's get the hell out of here.
[01:07:40] So then when, so how long did it take
[01:07:42] before you got your objective secured?
[01:07:44] And then what'd you do?
[01:07:46] Then we loaded up straight to Kuwait.
[01:07:48] I mean, and it was, it was just game on.
[01:07:50] I mean, we, we, we rolled it.
[01:07:52] That air war and that campaign that those folks did,
[01:07:56] unbelievable.
[01:07:57] I mean, it wasn't like a window pane left intact in Kuwait.
[01:08:02] I mean, they, they, they, like I said,
[01:08:04] they threw the kitchen sink at them.
[01:08:06] I mean, the air power above us, even with our,
[01:08:09] with our helicopter support, with Cobra's army,
[01:08:12] with their Apaches and then all the fast movers
[01:08:15] and stuff over there.
[01:08:16] I mean, they just, there was a lot of craters.
[01:08:19] That mile of death, cause I remember years later,
[01:08:22] probably like I think it was 93 or 94.
[01:08:25] I went to Kuwait and we were doing like training
[01:08:27] and we drove up the mile death and there's still vehicles
[01:08:29] all over the place that we just blasted.
[01:08:32] Oh yeah.
[01:08:33] And then, you know, then they, they want to make it look
[01:08:35] like the Kuwaitis like had a part in it.
[01:08:38] So then they're going to let them come back in
[01:08:40] and shoot into the air and yeah, we took our country back
[01:08:43] and all that kind of stuff.
[01:08:45] But yeah, that place was a wreck.
[01:08:47] It's amazing what it looks like now compared to,
[01:08:50] I mean, they, they, they, they took the wood to it.
[01:08:53] But it was, you know, of seeing that in 91
[01:08:57] and just seeing the, the amount of power
[01:09:00] the United States has is just unimaginable
[01:09:07] of what we can bring to bear.
[01:09:10] But I look at the commanders that were those senior command,
[01:09:12] you know, a few years later after that,
[01:09:14] I read Colin Powell's autobiography, phenomenal individual,
[01:09:18] phenomenal career.
[01:09:20] But I look at those guys in the, in the leadership positions
[01:09:23] of where they were and their careers
[01:09:26] of what they had gone through, coming out of Vietnam
[01:09:29] and seeing that kind of stuff.
[01:09:30] So when, you know, now it's their turn to go.
[01:09:35] I was very thankful for that.
[01:09:37] But even the battalion commanders, you know,
[01:09:40] them having combat experience, you know what I mean?
[01:09:43] It was, it was, it was a game changer for us
[01:09:46] to have somebody that, you know, directly looking out for you
[01:09:50] that's been there, done that and has the T-shirt
[01:09:52] and hat kind of aspect.
[01:09:54] And, and they know what Wright looks like.
[01:09:57] And the way they were as leaders, like I said,
[01:10:00] I mean, Tuchel Jones was, as the battalion commander,
[01:10:03] he was, you know, just phenomenal as a leader
[01:10:08] because he was personal.
[01:10:10] Like you felt like you had a relationship with the guy.
[01:10:14] And, and of course, you know, he always had,
[01:10:15] he loved sports, you know, it was big and with activities.
[01:10:19] So, you know, we had softball bats.
[01:10:20] I played third base for his, you know,
[01:10:22] for his battalion team, you know what I mean?
[01:10:24] So third base and, you know, I got an arm.
[01:10:27] You know what I mean?
[01:10:28] Love playing.
[01:10:29] Yeah, so it was like camp, you know what I mean?
[01:10:32] Again, but we're in the middle of the desert.
[01:10:36] Yeah, it's, it's, you know, you mentioned
[01:10:39] that you had these guys who were running the show.
[01:10:42] And, you know, when we just had this Afghanistan pull out,
[01:10:45] which is just a big disaster.
[01:10:46] And you look at the entire,
[01:10:47] the entire Afghanistan campaign and the Iraq campaign
[01:10:51] that took place when I was in.
[01:10:54] And, you know, did these people learn anything from Vietnam?
[01:11:00] And then you look at how those guys handled the first Gulf War.
[01:11:03] It's like, you know, they learned something from Vietnam.
[01:11:05] Like, we're not going to do it like that.
[01:11:07] We're going to go in there with overwhelming force.
[01:11:10] I mean, overwhelming times five.
[01:11:13] Like there's nothing's going to stop us.
[01:11:15] And we're going to end up doing this in three days.
[01:11:17] That's what's going to happen.
[01:11:19] And like you said, people go to those only 96 hours.
[01:11:22] It's like, yes, exactly.
[01:11:26] Yeah, I'm thankful for that.
[01:11:28] You know, and, and that was a huge turn of point.
[01:11:33] Of course, by then, you know, then I had known
[01:11:37] when I came back that, you know, the Marine Corps,
[01:11:40] this is, this is what I'm going to,
[01:11:41] this is what I'm going to do.
[01:11:42] I've got, you know, three deployments.
[01:11:45] And then, you know, then they're looking at,
[01:11:47] now you got to kind of diversify yourself a little bit.
[01:11:51] So when I came back and I was a corporal.
[01:11:54] Did you guys come back on a ship?
[01:11:55] How'd you guys get back?
[01:11:56] How'd you guys get back to America?
[01:11:58] Because we were the first in.
[01:12:00] We got to be the first out.
[01:12:01] And there was a call of all airlines worldwide
[01:12:05] to come in to pick up troops to get them home.
[01:12:07] We flew Hawaiian Airlines, which was,
[01:12:12] which was pretty banging.
[01:12:13] You know what I mean?
[01:12:14] Being out, being gone for over nine months, you know,
[01:12:16] total because we were already on deployment
[01:12:18] and got Taggurit.
[01:12:20] And, you know, getting on the, on the big freedom birds
[01:12:24] and we landed in, we flew over, we landed in,
[01:12:29] in Ireland to refuel.
[01:12:32] And then we landed in Maine.
[01:12:35] And when we landed in Maine, they let us get off the planes
[01:12:38] and we all came back in and we were like the first,
[01:12:41] like troops back to hit US soil in Maine.
[01:12:45] And man, the airport was, the walls were lined
[01:12:50] with just, it seemed like the whole state of Maine
[01:12:52] was at the airport.
[01:12:54] You know what I mean?
[01:12:55] Flags, they had tables out, food.
[01:12:58] And, you know, the battalion commander, you know,
[01:13:01] he's like, meet me at the bar.
[01:13:03] And, you know, we go to the bar here.
[01:13:05] It's probably not the smartest thing to do when, you know,
[01:13:07] you've been sober for nine months
[01:13:09] and now we're all going to go to the bar.
[01:13:12] And, but I mean, the people in Maine,
[01:13:14] for them coming out was huge.
[01:13:16] The support that we got coming back after that was amazing.
[01:13:21] So we're there, they refuel, they put us back on the bird
[01:13:25] and, you know, the stewardess just had to lock themselves
[01:13:28] away because you got a bunch of stupid Marines
[01:13:32] that have had a lot to drink.
[01:13:33] You know, they got the little no smoking lamps coming on.
[01:13:35] Dudes are burning cigarettes.
[01:13:37] You know, there's no shits given.
[01:13:39] We get down to Cherry Point and the bands down there,
[01:13:43] I mean, they're throwing 12 packs and beer
[01:13:46] on the back of the five tons.
[01:13:48] We're going back down to Lejeune.
[01:13:50] It was, I mean, it was a great, great homecoming
[01:13:54] to be able to come back.
[01:13:56] And it was, it was phenomenal for that experience.
[01:14:03] And then I had to decide what I'm going to do next.
[01:14:06] And I had one of my best friends, Doug Barry.
[01:14:10] He lives just up the road here in San Diego.
[01:14:13] We were together in First Battalion, six Marines.
[01:14:17] And we both went over to await orders to go to the drill
[01:14:21] field to become a drill instructor.
[01:14:25] And just because, you know, I mean, the Marine Corps,
[01:14:27] like the DI is a very iconic figure.
[01:14:32] But the bigger reason is, is back then,
[01:14:36] you only had to do two years on the drill field.
[01:14:39] But if you went recruiting, you had to do three.
[01:14:43] Well, the only thing I knew was I did not want
[01:14:46] to be a recruiter.
[01:14:47] Like that, you know, God bless them.
[01:14:50] You know what I mean?
[01:14:51] We've got the school right here at MCRD
[01:14:54] for Marine Corps of Recruiting.
[01:14:55] And the guys are great at their job.
[01:14:57] You know, the Marines put on the, you know,
[01:14:59] the uniform, the way they look, the way they recruit.
[01:15:02] I mean, we can propaganda with the best of them out there.
[01:15:05] And so I wanted to go do the DI thing,
[01:15:08] get the funny hat.
[01:15:10] Plus it, you know, it would be fun.
[01:15:13] And it was.
[01:15:15] So how long is drill instructor school?
[01:15:18] It's like three months.
[01:15:19] It's kind of like you're going through boot camp,
[01:15:20] but you got rank.
[01:15:24] I imagine though, they must be like even harder
[01:15:26] in boot than boot camp in some ways.
[01:15:28] Cause you got to be so like perfect with everything.
[01:15:32] Yeah. And it's learning like the drill manual verbatim.
[01:15:37] It's the, from the mannerisms to just the command presence.
[01:15:42] They teach you that.
[01:15:44] Oh, can they take a guy that doesn't have any command
[01:15:46] presence and they teach it to him?
[01:15:48] Oh yeah. I mean, you're going to stand out there
[01:15:50] and yell at a lot of trees.
[01:15:51] You know what I mean?
[01:15:52] It's like, if you ever go down there
[01:15:54] and you like watch DI school and they're going through
[01:15:56] DI school, you'll see dudes like,
[01:15:58] what is he doing yelling?
[01:15:59] And then he's just, what, at a tree.
[01:16:02] Well, he's doing what's like, it's called a teach back
[01:16:04] where you have to verbatim.
[01:16:06] You know what I mean?
[01:16:07] Like go back through for the different moves of drill.
[01:16:12] And then, you know, from your mannerisms,
[01:16:14] how you dress, how you look, your professionalism
[01:16:18] of coming in is it is, it's a difficult school.
[01:16:23] The uniforms are just, I mean, that's next level.
[01:16:28] Because I wasn't like the best uniform guy.
[01:16:30] You know what I mean?
[01:16:31] Yeah. Yeah. I wasn't like, I didn't even own dress blues.
[01:16:35] Like, cause you had to buy them back then if you wanted them.
[01:16:37] And I was like, why don't I want to buy them?
[01:16:40] You know what I mean?
[01:16:41] I like the alphas, the greens.
[01:16:44] So I just had alphas.
[01:16:45] I never had the blues.
[01:16:46] They didn't issue them to me.
[01:16:47] And you know what I mean?
[01:16:48] I'm cool with that.
[01:16:49] I didn't join to get dressed blues.
[01:16:52] I joined for the camis and the rifle free ammo,
[01:16:55] that kind of stuff, travel the world.
[01:16:57] So when I got there, the uniforms were difficult.
[01:16:59] The PT was really good, but it was,
[01:17:02] it was more of the structure of everything
[01:17:04] that they do to you at the iSchool.
[01:17:06] You can use it when you become a drill instructor.
[01:17:09] So they're going to do stuff to you
[01:17:10] that then you can turn around and.
[01:17:12] Mark what?
[01:17:14] Like on the training schedule of like,
[01:17:16] of probably the biggest misconception of Marine Corps
[01:17:22] and boot camps, everybody thinks it's like hands on.
[01:17:26] Like, you know, oh, you're going to get beat.
[01:17:28] They're going to put their hands on.
[01:17:28] I mean like physically.
[01:17:29] Physically.
[01:17:30] Yeah. I mean, and you learn there that,
[01:17:32] you know, you don't have to hit them to hurt them.
[01:17:35] You know what I mean?
[01:17:36] It's a one arms distance.
[01:17:37] Nothing has changed.
[01:17:39] If you need to put your hands on somebody,
[01:17:42] then you've lost leadership.
[01:17:44] You know what I mean?
[01:17:45] If you have to go to the physical force,
[01:17:48] but you know, just in your mannerism
[01:17:50] and the shock and awe of just the voice
[01:17:54] can just intimidate people.
[01:17:57] It's mainly as your voice, the smoky brings a lot to bear.
[01:18:01] And then just your physical fitness level.
[01:18:05] You know what I mean?
[01:18:05] Cause as a recruit, you're like,
[01:18:06] this guy like sweat.
[01:18:08] Like this guy doesn't get tired.
[01:18:10] I mean, these guys are just animals.
[01:18:13] And it is, it's a lot of, it's a lot of hard work.
[01:18:16] It's a lot of long hours,
[01:18:19] but it is very rewarding when,
[01:18:23] when you get the recruits have come in and it's fun.
[01:18:27] Cause now you're like a live character on Saturday Night Live.
[01:18:30] I mean, some of the stuff,
[01:18:31] that's why you got the big smoky.
[01:18:33] And so you can drop it so they can't see you laughing.
[01:18:36] Because I mean, some of the stuff that you see
[01:18:39] that recruits do, you know, I was like,
[01:18:41] yeah, I'd be with some of the other hats
[01:18:42] cause that's what you call a DI hat.
[01:18:45] And I, you'd be one of the hats was like,
[01:18:46] dude, there's no way I was this stupid when I was here.
[01:18:48] And you're like, yeah, you were,
[01:18:50] you were just as dumb as these kids are that are coming in.
[01:18:54] And they just do funny, they do funny stuff.
[01:18:57] And then as, as a drill instructor, when,
[01:19:00] when you get these kids on the yellow footprints
[01:19:03] and then in a three month period,
[01:19:06] when their parents come down for graduation
[01:19:09] and you're marching them up there
[01:19:10] and it's parents day, Thursday afternoon at Paris Island.
[01:19:14] And, and all the parents are excited to see their kids.
[01:19:17] Excuse me.
[01:19:18] And when the parents have to come over and ask you like,
[01:19:23] which one's mine?
[01:19:26] You know what I mean?
[01:19:27] Looking at them like,
[01:19:28] did you've had that kid for like 18 years
[01:19:30] and you don't know which one's yours?
[01:19:33] You know, the transformation when they get to go out
[01:19:35] with their parents, the drill instructors get to meet
[01:19:38] the parents that night when they bring the kids back
[01:19:41] to the squad bay.
[01:19:42] And the parents are just like,
[01:19:44] how did you do this in three months?
[01:19:46] He's saying, yes, sir, yes, man,
[01:19:48] he's holding doors open, like he's sitting up straight
[01:19:51] at the table.
[01:19:52] You know what I mean?
[01:19:53] Like what you all did to this,
[01:19:54] who our son is just incredible.
[01:19:57] It's a great weight loss program.
[01:20:00] You know what I mean?
[01:20:01] Like folks show up, you know what I mean?
[01:20:02] They look like a sea bag with lips,
[01:20:04] chewed up bubble gum and you know what I mean?
[01:20:06] Three months later, they're fighting lava monsters.
[01:20:08] I mean, they look like they're straight out of 300.
[01:20:13] And so that's very rewarding of seeing some of those,
[01:20:17] some of those kids just, and you know,
[01:20:19] in the Marine Corps, man,
[01:20:20] we then we're gonna put that emblem on them
[01:20:21] for the rest of their life.
[01:20:22] I mean, they've joined a great institution.
[01:20:26] You know, once a Marine, always a Marine,
[01:20:28] you know, we're gonna bring the families in.
[01:20:31] We're gonna mom, dad, they're gonna buy the t-shirts,
[01:20:34] the hats, they're gonna fly the flags.
[01:20:37] The Marine Corps does a, in my opinion,
[01:20:39] we do a really good job of bringing in the entire family.
[01:20:43] Like, you know, I mean,
[01:20:44] you'll see the stickers on the backs of cars,
[01:20:46] my son's a US Marine, my daughter's a US Marine.
[01:20:50] I mean, we got my grandson,
[01:20:53] I mean, we bring in the whole family
[01:20:56] to support that kid while he's, you know,
[01:20:58] to service to country, which is huge.
[01:21:00] When you're a drill instructor,
[01:21:01] or you're a drill instructor at school,
[01:21:04] are they talking you through sort of like
[01:21:06] the psychological why behind this aspect of training
[01:21:11] or this aspect of treatment?
[01:21:13] For instance, when I went to OCS,
[01:21:15] you know, I had Marine Corps drill instructor,
[01:21:16] awesome guy, awesome drill instructor,
[01:21:20] but at some point he told us stuff at the end, you know,
[01:21:24] and it was, honestly, I think I was asking a lot of questions
[01:21:26] because I wanted to understand better,
[01:21:28] but for instance, when you get to OCS,
[01:21:30] you can't look at your food.
[01:21:32] You have to, they call it squaring your meals.
[01:21:35] And I was like, hey, what, why are we doing that?
[01:21:37] And he goes, well, that comes from when we treat,
[01:21:40] when we used to just train pilots,
[01:21:42] they had to learn to use their peripheral vision
[01:21:44] so they could see their instruments
[01:21:45] while they're looking around.
[01:21:46] Okay, that makes sense.
[01:21:47] Hey, why do we gotta yell at you?
[01:21:48] Cause you gotta speak in a ballistic tone,
[01:21:50] which means you gotta yell everything.
[01:21:51] I'm like, what's the reason behind that?
[01:21:54] He says, well, you know, we get these young ensigns in here
[01:21:56] that are going to go on, be on board a ship,
[01:21:58] they're gonna be on the bridge,
[01:22:00] and they're gonna have to give orders on the bridge
[01:22:02] in a simple, clear, concise manner.
[01:22:04] They can't be hesitant.
[01:22:06] They gotta think before they say,
[01:22:07] but then they gotta say it with a commanding voice
[01:22:08] so that people actually hear them and then can execute.
[01:22:12] So there's things going on
[01:22:14] that there's a pragmatic reason behind,
[01:22:17] but did they ever break that down for you?
[01:22:19] For instance, you know, you can go watch on YouTube,
[01:22:21] you can go watch like the Welcome Abored,
[01:22:24] not like the first night,
[01:22:26] but maybe it's the second day
[01:22:27] where the Marines, they have a very preplanned script
[01:22:31] that they're saying about, you know,
[01:22:33] this is the Marine Corps, this is what we're doing.
[01:22:36] Do they break stuff down at a psychological level for you?
[01:22:41] Because what you just said about the Marine Corps
[01:22:43] doing it very well, I mean, I don't know if there's anyone
[01:22:46] that does it better than the Marine Corps.
[01:22:48] I mean, in the world, I don't know if there's any group
[01:22:51] that has a stronger culture than the Marine Corps
[01:22:56] that takes normal human beings from literally everywhere
[01:23:00] and every strata of the United States of America
[01:23:02] and sometimes other parts of the world
[01:23:04] and turns them into this cohesive unit.
[01:23:08] I don't know if there's anyone
[01:23:09] that does it better, but do they break it down?
[01:23:12] Do they say, hey, here's the reason why we do this right here?
[01:23:15] Like even basic SEAL training, you know, they're like,
[01:23:18] oh, what is Hell Week for?
[01:23:21] What is it for?
[01:23:22] And there's people that can answer that question,
[01:23:23] well, here's what's gonna happen.
[01:23:25] You know, this is what you're gonna have guys
[01:23:27] that are gonna quit on the second day
[01:23:30] and those are the people that blah, blah,
[01:23:31] and they've done all this sort of psychological background
[01:23:34] on it.
[01:23:35] Is there anything like that when you become a Marine Corps
[01:23:38] drill instructor that you understand the why?
[01:23:41] Or is it just this is what we know works?
[01:23:46] Yeah, a lot of it has to do with this is what works,
[01:23:50] but at the same time, everything is done, like you said,
[01:23:53] that you have squaring your meals.
[01:23:55] Like everything is for a reason.
[01:23:58] And it's also, you know, when we hand this recruit over
[01:24:01] to this, you know, commissioned officer,
[01:24:04] it's instant obedience to orders.
[01:24:06] I mean, these guys, they're, I mean,
[01:24:09] they do it better than anybody.
[01:24:12] For instance, obedience, but when you talk about like
[01:24:15] the psychological aspects, I was also, I was a swim hat.
[01:24:19] So I was a Marine Combat Instructor water survival.
[01:24:21] So I was a swim instructor, basically, for the Marine Corps.
[01:24:26] And, you know, because of the kids that we recruit
[01:24:31] like myself, they can't put that Marine has something
[01:24:34] to do with aquatics in it for some reason.
[01:24:36] You know what I mean?
[01:24:37] Like the recruiters don't like let them know
[01:24:38] that, hey, when you get down there, you got to swim.
[01:24:42] I mean, we get, like you said, I mean,
[01:24:44] we get kids from all over the planet
[01:24:46] that have never, the largest body of water
[01:24:48] they've ever seen is the pool tank
[01:24:50] at Parris Island, South Carolina.
[01:24:52] I mean, they've never been in a body of water that big.
[01:24:56] And we don't ask them if they can swim.
[01:24:59] Like nobody's, you know, the drill instructor
[01:25:01] doesn't come out, hey, anybody not swim?
[01:25:03] You can stand over here to the side.
[01:25:04] We just, you know, strap their gear on them
[01:25:06] you know what I mean?
[01:25:07] So give them a rifle, put a helmet on them.
[01:25:09] They're wearing their boots and they're all like, you know,
[01:25:12] A to B, right next to the 10 foot tower
[01:25:15] and we're going to give them the swim brief
[01:25:17] and we're going to take them up on the 10 foot tower
[01:25:20] and ask them to take a 30 inch step
[01:25:22] and do the deep end and swim 25 meters.
[01:25:25] And when you're sitting there, look,
[01:25:27] you know who the recruits are that can't swim.
[01:25:30] Because they're probably looking around going,
[01:25:32] is anybody going to ask?
[01:25:34] Like nobody there is not going to ask.
[01:25:36] And when you look at it,
[01:25:37] is we just want to see if they're going to step.
[01:25:40] If they can overcome fear, you know,
[01:25:43] if an individual can't overcome the fear or trust,
[01:25:47] I mean, there's a drill instructor in the water
[01:25:51] waiting for you like no one has drowned in this trend.
[01:25:55] Like it's, you know, it's the instructors
[01:25:57] that are there, very professional, very well run.
[01:26:01] And when you see this young man or young woman,
[01:26:04] you know what I mean?
[01:26:05] They're going to bounce the tower that knows
[01:26:06] that they can't swim a day in their life.
[01:26:09] And but they're going to trust the instructors
[01:26:12] and the Marine Corps that we're going to take care of you.
[01:26:16] They just have to step 30 inch step.
[01:26:18] They hit the water, they come up, you know,
[01:26:19] they're throwing up stuff from the third grade.
[01:26:21] They got snot coming out.
[01:26:22] They're straight to the,
[01:26:23] they don't even make it even close to swimming at all.
[01:26:27] They're just a rock in the water.
[01:26:29] We take them over to the side.
[01:26:30] We strip them all the way down into their, you know,
[01:26:32] their PT shorts and we take them down to the shallow end
[01:26:37] and we teach them how to swim.
[01:26:39] You know what I mean?
[01:26:40] It's a life skill.
[01:26:42] And, you know, there's nothing greater than when you're,
[01:26:45] you know, because, and it's not necessarily, you know,
[01:26:46] maybe their parents just,
[01:26:49] we don't know their background,
[01:26:50] how they were raised like for me.
[01:26:51] I don't remember learning how to swim.
[01:26:53] I could just swim.
[01:26:55] You know, a lot of those kids just don't have that advantage
[01:26:58] and we take them down there to the shallow end of the pool
[01:27:00] and we teach them the survival strokes.
[01:27:03] And in a couple of weeks, you know,
[01:27:04] like if they've got different training,
[01:27:06] they got to come back to the pool and do remediation
[01:27:09] until we can get them to pass and they can swim.
[01:27:11] When you see the confidence level in a kid,
[01:27:14] now that he can like swim and he passed that,
[01:27:17] I mean, this guy's going to go through brick walls.
[01:27:20] His fear is gone.
[01:27:22] You know, there's nothing this kid cannot accomplish now.
[01:27:26] I mean, it's just amazing.
[01:27:27] You could see it in them.
[01:27:28] I mean, you know, if you've ever like seen someone,
[01:27:30] they accomplished something just of a small task
[01:27:33] of like swimming 25 meters.
[01:27:35] Like it's really not that big of a deal.
[01:27:38] But to that kid, huge life changing event.
[01:27:42] How often, what's the attrition rate
[01:27:44] of Marine Corps boot camp?
[01:27:48] Ah, you know.
[01:27:50] How many guys would you lose, you know,
[01:27:52] what are you in charge of there?
[01:27:54] A platoon?
[01:27:55] Yeah, so you got a platoon.
[01:27:56] So, you know, depending on the time of the year,
[01:27:58] you might have, you know, between 50 to 70 kids
[01:28:01] that are in a platoon and you might lose 15 to 20 of them.
[01:28:05] But a lot of them, you know, it's injuries.
[01:28:06] So they're going to get recycled out.
[01:28:08] Yeah, they're just going to get recycled and rolled.
[01:28:11] They go to what, like if you come in, like, you know,
[01:28:14] when you first get down there, you know,
[01:28:16] and it's no offense to recruiters or anything like that,
[01:28:19] but you know, the kids are supposed to be able to have
[01:28:21] completed somewhat of a physical task prior to coming.
[01:28:24] So they can at least like pull themselves up
[01:28:27] out of a wet paper bag at least like once
[01:28:30] before they get there.
[01:28:32] You know, it's that whole preparation thing.
[01:28:34] And some of the kids, you know, we send them
[01:28:36] to PCP physical conditioning platoon
[01:28:38] because some of them show up.
[01:28:40] And they're just not really prepared.
[01:28:42] And when you kind of look at that, it's not really the kid.
[01:28:45] You know, the kid just read a pamphlet, you know what I mean?
[01:28:47] He wants to come in and that's somebody's son or daughter.
[01:28:53] You know what I mean?
[01:28:54] That they think that's the greatest thing since sliced bread.
[01:28:56] You know, to be a Marine, I mean,
[01:28:58] you only got to do three pull ups.
[01:29:00] I mean, you only got to run three miles and 28 minutes.
[01:29:02] I mean, it's not like we're, we're banging it, you know,
[01:29:05] in the main of like something that's just like
[01:29:06] incredibly difficult, but to some people,
[01:29:10] three pull ups is that's the most I've ever done
[01:29:12] in their life.
[01:29:13] And so, you know, we've got those,
[01:29:15] we've got medical rehabilitation platoon.
[01:29:17] So if the guys get rolled back, it's very rare.
[01:29:21] You know what I mean?
[01:29:22] Like you can try to drop.
[01:29:23] I mean, we do drop kids that get sent off the island
[01:29:26] and it's just because they're just not conforming.
[01:29:29] What about just straight quitters?
[01:29:30] Like it's cold or it's hot or it's too far.
[01:29:34] You're going to send them down.
[01:29:35] Everybody's got like a series commander.
[01:29:38] So you have an officer to kind of keep a look over
[01:29:41] what's happening in cell block.
[01:29:43] You know what I mean?
[01:29:44] And they have to go down and they'll get an interview
[01:29:46] with that, you know, a Marine captain.
[01:29:50] He's a series commander and he's going to try to talk
[01:29:52] that kid in to stay in.
[01:29:53] Like, hey, you know what, man?
[01:29:54] The drill starts really aren't that bad.
[01:29:56] You know what I mean?
[01:29:57] Because it's all a numbers game.
[01:29:58] You know what I mean?
[01:29:59] Like in the end, the Marine Corps needs
[01:30:01] a certain amount of numbers.
[01:30:03] So he's going to try to talk the kid back in.
[01:30:05] And that's like a lot of times with the platoon commander
[01:30:07] or the, you know, the series commanders
[01:30:08] that you have down there, you're like,
[01:30:10] you got to be shit me, sir.
[01:30:12] You're going to send this kid back.
[01:30:13] Man, like, God, you know, this guy is just,
[01:30:16] this kid's incredible.
[01:30:18] And he's just like, you just work with him.
[01:30:20] You know what I mean?
[01:30:21] Just, you know, leadership challenge.
[01:30:23] I hate that.
[01:30:23] You know what I mean?
[01:30:24] Like, that's the last thing I need
[01:30:26] in the middle of bootcamp is my leadership challenge.
[01:30:28] But in the end, I mean, you know,
[01:30:31] for the most part one, when you look at it,
[01:30:33] they're joining the United States Marine Corps.
[01:30:36] So you look across America, like, who else is joining?
[01:30:40] You know what I mean?
[01:30:40] So at least the kid signed on a dotted line
[01:30:43] and he's going to come and provide service to his country.
[01:30:46] Which is, that's pretty incredible.
[01:30:49] Just in that aspect.
[01:30:52] But some of them just, you know, psychologically,
[01:30:54] they just, they're not mentally tough enough
[01:30:57] and they're going to do whatever it takes
[01:30:59] to get off of that island.
[01:31:01] And we're going to do whatever it takes
[01:31:03] to help them get off of that island.
[01:31:06] You know, it's a lot of fun.
[01:31:10] But, you know, the rifle range is usually
[01:31:14] a pretty big deal, you know, every brain's a rifleman.
[01:31:17] But, you know, we're just looking, you know, marksmen.
[01:31:19] How many can get across the qualification lines?
[01:31:22] That kind of thing.
[01:31:23] So the marksmanship package, you know what I mean?
[01:31:24] There's a two week package down there.
[01:31:26] I think it's pretty good.
[01:31:27] It's a pretty good marksmanship package
[01:31:28] that the Marine Corps puts on.
[01:31:30] You know, for us shooting them back at 500
[01:31:32] with, you know, Green Tip 556, that's not great ammo.
[01:31:36] It's a pretty big accomplishment.
[01:31:38] And then, you know, just the aspects
[01:31:40] of when those kids graduate from Parris Island.
[01:31:44] You know what I mean?
[01:31:45] They look like they're ready to just strap on the world.
[01:31:48] And a three month period, you know,
[01:31:51] they're really not any tougher
[01:31:54] than they were three months before when they got there.
[01:31:57] But their mindset is different.
[01:32:01] I would say that that's probably the biggest thing.
[01:32:03] We just, we changed their mindset.
[01:32:05] And hopefully we're making a better product for America.
[01:32:09] When the kids go back home, if they get out,
[01:32:11] hopefully we're putting a better product back
[01:32:14] into society after serving in the Marines.
[01:32:17] And, you know, I would say the majority,
[01:32:19] we're doing a pretty good job.
[01:32:20] But I would say that for pretty much all the armed services.
[01:32:24] The instant obedience to orders,
[01:32:27] when do you get the, in the Marine Corps,
[01:32:32] you know, Marine Corps was like,
[01:32:34] we already talked about all gray and the enlightenment,
[01:32:36] the second enlightenment of the Marine Corps,
[01:32:38] which is, hey, we want people to think,
[01:32:39] we want to have, you know, mission type orders
[01:32:42] and those kind of things.
[01:32:43] At what point do you go from, all right,
[01:32:46] I'm a robot, I'm going to obey the orders
[01:32:48] that are given to me to hold on a second boss.
[01:32:50] Here's what my thoughts are.
[01:32:51] Yeah, usually when you're getting
[01:32:53] the non-commissioned officer,
[01:32:54] when you step into that team leader role, you know what I mean?
[01:32:57] And then you're, you know, you're reading assignment.
[01:32:59] Usually, I don't know if it's still to this day,
[01:33:03] but you know, reading message to Garcia, you know what I mean?
[01:33:06] Just getting them on those little interests
[01:33:09] of starting to thank on their own, you know what I mean?
[01:33:12] And not necessarily like everything
[01:33:14] has to come from a book, like everything very set in stone.
[01:33:20] You know what I mean?
[01:33:20] So when Al Gray, you know, brings in these, you know,
[01:33:23] the war fighting publications, yeah, it's starting to,
[01:33:27] it's kind of liberating that you can,
[01:33:31] now there's not a problem with like questioning authority.
[01:33:35] It's basically, you're not really, you're just asking why,
[01:33:37] like what's the why in it?
[01:33:39] Like why are we here?
[01:33:41] Why are we doing it this way?
[01:33:43] Is it just because you're telling me to,
[01:33:45] you know what I mean?
[01:33:46] Or is there actually some, you know, method to the madness?
[01:33:51] So I would say, you know,
[01:33:52] once you get into that team leader kind of role and NCO,
[01:33:55] you know, the non-commissioned officer, you know,
[01:33:58] that's when, you know, we're gonna start,
[01:33:59] you need to start thinking on your own.
[01:34:01] You need to start taking charge.
[01:34:03] It's not that instant obedience to orders.
[01:34:05] And, you know, if you see something that's not right,
[01:34:08] then, you know, bring that up.
[01:34:10] And you shouldn't be worried about the repercussions
[01:34:13] of questioning.
[01:34:15] You know, now there are some that don't like to be questioned.
[01:34:18] So of course, you know, there's that aspect of it,
[01:34:22] but that's in any organization.
[01:34:24] Any organization has those kind of jerks.
[01:34:27] So you get done with, what happens when you get done
[01:34:31] with your time at drill instructor school?
[01:34:32] You go back to one sex?
[01:34:33] Yep, go right back.
[01:34:35] First, it didn't want to have to buy new t-shirts and stuff.
[01:34:37] So I figured, hey man, yeah, I call the monitor.
[01:34:39] Let's go right back to 1st Battalion 6 Marines.
[01:34:42] Went back there.
[01:34:44] And now I'm stepping into that like platoon sergeant
[01:34:48] kind of thing, the Eli Tucker of my career.
[01:34:54] And that-
[01:34:55] You mentioned to me one time we were talking
[01:34:57] and you were like, oh, some guys had a hard time
[01:35:00] taking off their DI hat, meaning they come from
[01:35:03] the drill field where they're yelling and screaming
[01:35:05] and expect to be treated basically like a god.
[01:35:09] And now they're back in a platoon and it's like,
[01:35:11] they keep acting like that and it can be a problem.
[01:35:14] Yeah, I mean, now I don't want the fellow drill instructors
[01:35:18] out there to take offense, but the Marine drill instructor
[01:35:21] is you're just the lowest paid actor.
[01:35:24] I mean, it is an acting job.
[01:35:27] I mean, you're putting on a, it's a show.
[01:35:32] And some of them be like, oh, they don't agree with that.
[01:35:34] Well, if I'm like the third hat, I have a certain way
[01:35:38] that they want me to act as a third hat.
[01:35:39] If I'm the heavy, you know what I mean?
[01:35:42] The second hat, the J of what they call third hat.
[01:35:45] The third hat, you're like Nick the new hat.
[01:35:47] You just graduated from school.
[01:35:48] Literally, you might as well just get a laundry number
[01:35:50] and stay with the recruits
[01:35:51] because you don't know what you're doing.
[01:35:53] You know what I mean?
[01:35:54] So you just run around and they're like, hey,
[01:35:56] they'd be like, hey dog, you need to get louder
[01:35:59] and you need to get faster.
[01:36:00] Yeah, everything that you're doing is not fast enough.
[01:36:03] It's not loud enough.
[01:36:04] It's not, you know what I mean?
[01:36:05] So you're running around and you're trying to be that,
[01:36:08] that sand flee the word,
[01:36:10] you're just never letting these kids get a break.
[01:36:14] The heavy like the, he's the senior green belt in the platoon
[01:36:20] and he's teaching them everything drill,
[01:36:23] teaching them squad bay procedures.
[01:36:25] You know what I mean?
[01:36:26] He's very firm.
[01:36:26] Like the heavies, the guy that's the most experienced
[01:36:29] drill instructor, he's the one as a recruit
[01:36:31] you don't mess with.
[01:36:32] This guy, he knows the drill.
[01:36:35] He's very good at his job.
[01:36:37] And then you got like the senior drill instructor
[01:36:39] that wears the black belt.
[01:36:40] He's like dad.
[01:36:41] You know what I mean?
[01:36:42] Like he comes in, he hands out mail, he's nicer to you.
[01:36:46] And these are all stated roles?
[01:36:49] Yeah, I mean, it's, you know, if you're like the third hat,
[01:36:52] like the new guy and you're in there like big daddy
[01:36:55] and the recruits and handing out candy to them.
[01:36:57] Yeah, you're not gonna go over well with your peers.
[01:37:00] You know what I mean?
[01:37:01] They're gonna, you know, it's that peer pressure
[01:37:03] of how you're kind of of what role you play in the platoon.
[01:37:09] So, you know, some of the folks when you leave the drill field
[01:37:13] and you go back to the fleet Marine force,
[01:37:15] some of the folks, they like, they wear that smokey.
[01:37:19] They wanna, they wanna wear it in the fleet.
[01:37:22] And a lot of folks are like, look dude,
[01:37:25] we're not in boot camp anymore.
[01:37:28] And you know what I mean?
[01:37:29] You need to leave that hat on the island.
[01:37:31] But, you know, when you do come back and, you know,
[01:37:36] especially with the officers and the senior enlisted
[01:37:39] as a drill instructor, you know what I mean?
[01:37:42] I mean, you're bringing,
[01:37:45] you're bringing a lot of experience, you know what I mean?
[01:37:48] And work ethic back to the battalion.
[01:37:51] You know, my oldest daughter, she's married to a Marine.
[01:37:54] He's infantry.
[01:37:56] He just finished his, he was a DI.
[01:37:59] You know, of course he calls me, what should I do next?
[01:38:01] Drone instructor, man.
[01:38:02] You know what I mean?
[01:38:03] And he knocked it out the park
[01:38:04] and now he's back at Camp Lejeune.
[01:38:06] And that's the first thing I told him,
[01:38:08] leave the, leave the smokey, you know, at Parris Island.
[01:38:11] You know what I mean?
[01:38:12] There's just no place for it.
[01:38:13] That's not a, that's not a leadership style.
[01:38:17] You know, nobody really responds well to that.
[01:38:21] Other than Marine Corps recruits in, you know,
[01:38:25] at Parris Island.
[01:38:26] Right.
[01:38:27] That's it.
[01:38:28] That's it.
[01:38:29] But then the funny thing is, is like, you know,
[01:38:31] after you've been on the drill field,
[01:38:33] you can't really remember all the recruits that you've had,
[01:38:36] just cause there's just a whole bunch of them.
[01:38:38] So it's kind of hard to like keep up.
[01:38:40] But some of them, you end up like finding out that,
[01:38:43] like that kid was in your platoon and you go over to him
[01:38:47] and it's like, hey, my heck of me didn't come over
[01:38:48] and say anything.
[01:38:49] You're on platoon.
[01:38:49] They're like, I wasn't going to come over and talk to you.
[01:38:52] Man, like are you shitting me?
[01:38:54] Like dude, I'm scared to death at you.
[01:38:55] And it's just like, just a regular guy.
[01:38:57] You know what I mean?
[01:38:58] That whole perception and, you know,
[01:39:00] everybody still remembers their Marine drill instructors.
[01:39:04] It's even me, my Sergeant Williams
[01:39:07] was my senior drill instructor.
[01:39:08] I'll never forget that guy.
[01:39:10] Yeah.
[01:39:10] And he was motor T.
[01:39:11] Oddly enough, my drill instructor,
[01:39:14] I still remember in officer candidate school
[01:39:16] and his last name, his gunnery Sergeant Seals,
[01:39:20] which is an interesting coincidence, right?
[01:39:22] Yeah.
[01:39:23] Awesome guy.
[01:39:24] Awesome guy.
[01:39:25] So you get back to one six and now you're,
[01:39:28] now you're a platoon Sergeant.
[01:39:29] Is that right?
[01:39:30] Yeah.
[01:39:31] Yeah.
[01:39:31] I'm back.
[01:39:32] I was still a Sergeant.
[01:39:33] So I was at E five.
[01:39:34] Technically you're supposed to be a E six to get a platoon,
[01:39:38] but you know, they were, they were short on those guys.
[01:39:40] So I got a platoon.
[01:39:42] And this is what like 1997 or something like that?
[01:39:45] 96.
[01:39:46] Yeah.
[01:39:47] I finished, yeah.
[01:39:48] I finished on the drill field in 95
[01:39:49] and came over and right back into one six and 96.
[01:39:56] And I was very excited to be back at canvashing.
[01:40:03] Not that I didn't have a, like a good time at,
[01:40:06] at Pereson.
[01:40:07] I had a little bit, you know, as a D I had a little run in
[01:40:09] with a, with one of the battalion commanders that was down there.
[01:40:12] And he thought it was a little overly aggressive.
[01:40:15] And, you know, it was, you know,
[01:40:18] he told me, you know, let me tell you what it's like to be a
[01:40:21] drill instructor.
[01:40:22] And I was like, when were you a drill instructor, sir?
[01:40:26] That went over like a fart in church.
[01:40:27] You know what I mean?
[01:40:28] He didn't like that aspect of it.
[01:40:30] And so me and him didn't necessarily see eye to eye.
[01:40:33] So when I left Peres Island, they were like, you know,
[01:40:36] please don't come back.
[01:40:38] But it was a lot of fun.
[01:40:40] And then when I got back to the fleet,
[01:40:43] there was a lot of other guys that, you know,
[01:40:45] the drill instructor community is, is very small.
[01:40:48] And it's pretty tight.
[01:40:50] And if, and if you get back in, one of the company gunnies,
[01:40:54] his name was Clifford Happy.
[01:40:55] He was a hat.
[01:40:57] So when I came in, you know, I just got more opportunities
[01:41:01] just because I had that experience of being a drill
[01:41:03] instructor.
[01:41:04] So they gave me a platoon, which I was super stoked with.
[01:41:08] And they gave me a platoon commander.
[01:41:11] His name Buck Rollins.
[01:41:13] Dad was Wayne Rollins, two star general,
[01:41:16] Navy Cross, Warner Vietnam.
[01:41:19] Great guy, I've just attended his funeral a few months back.
[01:41:21] He was buried in Arlington.
[01:41:23] Buck Rollins and I, you know, somebody there,
[01:41:26] Doug Zembeck was there at the time.
[01:41:29] I mean, that battalion for some odd reason, man,
[01:41:31] we had some like amazing second lieutenants
[01:41:35] like that were just like, you didn't really see
[01:41:39] that many great guys that were all in that battalion
[01:41:44] from Pascoley to, you know, there was just a bunch of them.
[01:41:49] Freighto was in there, was platoon commanders.
[01:41:52] That was my first experience of where, you know,
[01:41:55] when you become up as a platoon sergeant,
[01:41:57] you get to spend more time with platoon commanders.
[01:42:00] You know, before that, you don't really hang out
[01:42:01] with the officers like at all, you know what I mean?
[01:42:05] But then you become like, you know, you're a partner.
[01:42:08] You know what I mean?
[01:42:09] You're gonna work this platoon together.
[01:42:11] And I had, you know, I was very fortunate
[01:42:14] I had Buck Rollins, I had Doug Zembeck, and I had Doug Olson.
[01:42:18] These guys were your platoon commanders?
[01:42:21] Yeah, and I worked with them.
[01:42:24] They were the platoon commander, but it's my platoon.
[01:42:28] Yeah.
[01:42:29] Yeah, they just get to hang out.
[01:42:30] Yeah.
[01:42:31] They're, they say in the officers,
[01:42:34] about the officers and the SEAL teams is like,
[01:42:35] they rent, we own.
[01:42:37] Yeah.
[01:42:38] The officers rent, we own.
[01:42:40] It's like the chief, you know, the e-dogs,
[01:42:43] it's their platoon.
[01:42:44] The officers just, you know, he's gonna be here
[01:42:46] for a little while, but this is our platoon.
[01:42:48] Yeah, that's pretty much the exact same thing it is
[01:42:50] in an infrashoot battalion.
[01:42:51] It's the platoon sergeant.
[01:42:53] It's, you know, like I said, I mean, you know,
[01:42:55] Eli Tucker had a huge effect on me as a platoon sergeant
[01:42:58] and, you know, coming in from the kids
[01:43:00] that were in that platoon.
[01:43:02] And I've stayed in 1-6 for like three and a half years
[01:43:07] in the battalion, did a couple of pumps.
[01:43:09] I was gonna say, so you do a workup, training cycle,
[01:43:13] and then go on deployment.
[01:43:14] Were you riding ships on those deployments?
[01:43:17] Yeah, riding ships, doing the workup.
[01:43:20] We did a med float, which was, which was super cool.
[01:43:24] We kind of got deployed early.
[01:43:25] I ended up over in Albania, Toronto, Albania,
[01:43:28] if you remember in like the 97 timeframe,
[01:43:30] they were kind of blowing embassies up around the,
[01:43:33] so we got the call.
[01:43:34] I was with the 24th, yeah, 24th Mu.
[01:43:37] And we would just finished up doing workup.
[01:43:41] And we needed to, they wanted us to go into Toronto, Albania.
[01:43:45] So, you know, I got the call.
[01:43:47] At that time I had the sniper platoon.
[01:43:50] So I had the snipers, I took 12 guys.
[01:43:54] And, you know, we jumped on C-130s up in Cherry Point
[01:43:59] with an infantry rifle company.
[01:44:01] And they flew us over.
[01:44:03] We did a refuel.
[01:44:05] I think it's Singapore, landed in Italy,
[01:44:07] got on a 53, flew out on a USS Ipan.
[01:44:10] With the 22nd Mu, got briefed in,
[01:44:12] and we were in country in Toronto, Albania
[01:44:15] after they had evacuated the embassies out of there.
[01:44:19] And that was, we stayed over there for a couple of months.
[01:44:22] And so what were you doing?
[01:44:23] What was your mission?
[01:44:24] Just basically running, the embassy was evacuated.
[01:44:30] So we were-
[01:44:31] So it's empty?
[01:44:32] Yeah, it's empty.
[01:44:33] I mean-
[01:44:34] And so you guys are basically doing security on the embassy?
[01:44:35] Yep.
[01:44:36] You mean get trashed or whatever?
[01:44:37] Or no one comes in and steals shit?
[01:44:39] Yep.
[01:44:40] And I mean, it had a lot of other agencies
[01:44:44] that were over there running around.
[01:44:47] There was some Navy SEALs were over there.
[01:44:50] There was a lot of stuff going on.
[01:44:52] You know what I mean?
[01:44:52] The overarching was Bosnia.
[01:44:54] You know what I mean?
[01:44:55] That whole region at the time.
[01:44:57] It was a really good experience.
[01:44:59] You know, especially for the younger guys
[01:45:01] that were in the platoon,
[01:45:02] the guys that I had in that platoon,
[01:45:05] even still this day, I'm still in contact with.
[01:45:09] You know, from those guys,
[01:45:11] that was a very special time.
[01:45:14] Those three years at 1.6,
[01:45:16] being a platoon sergeant or what you would call
[01:45:19] like chief scout kind of role was just huge.
[01:45:23] I learned more about myself then, you know,
[01:45:27] with those folks and just, you know,
[01:45:29] they're relying on me, you know what I mean?
[01:45:32] To train, educate them, take care of them.
[01:45:36] It was a really special time in a Marine Corps
[01:45:40] for that time in service.
[01:45:42] When you went over there, were you the senior guy
[01:45:45] or did you have an officer?
[01:45:47] We had an officer, company commander.
[01:45:49] Company commander, we had a,
[01:45:50] and then of course the Mew had some of their Mew staff
[01:45:54] that was over there.
[01:45:56] Sean Pascoley was a captain that was over there.
[01:45:58] I'm still friends with Sean.
[01:46:03] Those guys, they had a company kind of reinforced.
[01:46:06] So we had some guys that were at the embassy,
[01:46:08] we had some guys that kind of stayed back
[01:46:10] and they were at the housing complex.
[01:46:12] You still had State Department folks
[01:46:13] that were milling about the area
[01:46:16] and you know, they're just looking for bad guys.
[01:46:19] We did a lot of time like watching.
[01:46:21] We were basically the snipers, we were overwatch.
[01:46:24] So you know, we had Albanians working gates,
[01:46:26] stuff like that, you know, we would hire them
[01:46:29] and then we would do the overwatch for them.
[01:46:31] Over at the embassy, it was right next
[01:46:33] to the University of Toronto.
[01:46:35] So it was just a lot of observing,
[01:46:37] a lot of time observing,
[01:46:39] but it was the same experience for those guys
[01:46:42] that I got when I was in went to Panama.
[01:46:44] You know, when they issue out the live ammo,
[01:46:46] it's just a different game.
[01:46:48] You know, even though nothing eventful,
[01:46:51] which I'm thankful for, took place while we were over there.
[01:46:55] Because you know, the only thing that would come in
[01:46:57] in the back of my mind, when I think of like being
[01:46:58] at an embassy is Beirut.
[01:47:01] You know, when you're just blowing stuff up,
[01:47:04] that's not necessarily warfare anymore.
[01:47:06] You know, that's terrorist activities.
[01:47:09] That's a, you know, and you know,
[01:47:11] when you think of the events of an infantry company,
[01:47:15] you know, in a barracks, you know,
[01:47:17] you can't help but think of Beirut.
[01:47:20] So, but luckily we learned from that.
[01:47:22] The company commander was there,
[01:47:23] like we were very well dispersed.
[01:47:25] Nobody was gonna be in one, you know, single point of failure.
[01:47:29] The overwatch on the gates, the guards.
[01:47:31] I mean, it was, there wasn't, you know,
[01:47:33] the rules of engagement, you know,
[01:47:34] of what they had to deal with at Beirut,
[01:47:37] completely different.
[01:47:38] So obviously, you know, we were a learning organization
[01:47:41] of we're not gonna let this kind of happen again,
[01:47:43] which was really cool for those guys
[01:47:46] to kind of go through that experience.
[01:47:48] And then, you know, once everything was over,
[01:47:50] and the threats were pretty much eliminated and gone,
[01:47:54] they brought the embassy back and ambassador comes back in.
[01:47:56] And I mean, people go to Toronto, Albania on vacation.
[01:48:00] I mean, which is kind of funny.
[01:48:03] You know, even like, you know, people go to Panama now.
[01:48:06] It's a great vacation spot.
[01:48:09] You know, when I was there, I never thought that like,
[01:48:10] who would want to come to Toronto, Albania?
[01:48:13] You know what I mean?
[01:48:14] But they were super nice people, you know,
[01:48:17] beautiful part of the world,
[01:48:18] but just different than us.
[01:48:20] Then what came after that?
[01:48:23] After that, I got, when I attended, up at Quantico,
[01:48:27] I attended the advanced,
[01:48:28] they used to have an advanced sniper school up at Quantico.
[01:48:31] So I went through the advanced sniper school
[01:48:33] prior to that deployment.
[01:48:35] And the staff in CIC that was up there,
[01:48:38] Bill Norton, his name, we call him Max.
[01:48:41] Max is, he asked me if I wanted to come back up
[01:48:44] to be an instructor at Quantico
[01:48:46] after that next deployment.
[01:48:48] And of course, yeah, I was like, yeah.
[01:48:51] You know, I mean, going up to Quantico,
[01:48:54] so he brought me up there as an instructor
[01:48:56] when I got done.
[01:48:57] So I was an instructor at Quantico.
[01:48:59] I took over as the chief instructor
[01:49:01] for the school house up at Quantico, which was, I mean,
[01:49:04] it was tons of fun.
[01:49:07] Just, I mean, you know, everybody that shows up,
[01:49:10] I mean, sniper school,
[01:49:11] because they do the, we do the basic course,
[01:49:14] you do the advanced course,
[01:49:15] and then you do what's called the sniper employment
[01:49:18] officer course.
[01:49:19] So the guys that are gonna be like in charge
[01:49:21] of sniper platoons, we put them through a,
[01:49:23] like a sniper employment package,
[01:49:25] two week course kind of the thing at Quantico.
[01:49:28] And I mean, it was just, it was a lot of fun.
[01:49:31] Just every day, I mean, the instructors, the students,
[01:49:35] it's just a lot of fun.
[01:49:37] It's a great package.
[01:49:38] You know what I mean?
[01:49:39] The stocking exercises is like fun.
[01:49:42] You know what I mean?
[01:49:42] People should pay money to go do that.
[01:49:46] And then just the, you know, bury your ass in brass.
[01:49:48] I mean, you're gonna shoot a lot of ammo.
[01:49:52] So, and as an instructor at that level,
[01:49:57] you know, I was the chief instructor.
[01:49:58] I expected that all the instructors on the cadre
[01:50:00] should be able to perform any of the skill sets
[01:50:02] at any given time, 365 days, you know,
[01:50:06] when the kids would come in to run the physical fitness test,
[01:50:09] I expected the instructors out there running
[01:50:11] right along with the students.
[01:50:13] You know, that kind of an aspect of, you know,
[01:50:15] even though we've got mine, you know, a lot of times people,
[01:50:18] you know, I got mine, let's make it harder for the next guy.
[01:50:21] You know what I mean?
[01:50:22] The training schedule alone is hard enough.
[01:50:24] You don't have to.
[01:50:25] How long is the, how long is the sniper course?
[01:50:28] It's like 12 weeks.
[01:50:29] Oh, it's a freaking no joke.
[01:50:30] Yeah, I mean, it's, you know.
[01:50:32] Is that the sniper course for the whole Marine Corps?
[01:50:34] That's it.
[01:50:35] Yeah, well, we've got Quantico,
[01:50:36] and then you got Camp Lejeune, you got Pendleton.
[01:50:38] So right up here at Pendleton,
[01:50:39] they run the basic course four times a year.
[01:50:41] And how long is the basic course?
[01:50:43] It's the 12 week.
[01:50:44] Okay.
[01:50:44] And then they got rid of the advanced course.
[01:50:47] Matter of fact, they got rid of the basic course.
[01:50:49] Like it's all, and I'm sure it's better,
[01:50:51] like better now than whatever we were doing.
[01:50:54] You know, because we were still back in the,
[01:50:57] probably in the half-cock days, you know what I mean,
[01:51:00] of the white feather, you know, the Chuck Mulhaney,
[01:51:04] you know, we're gonna, you know, the stocking and,
[01:51:08] which stocking is a, I would say stocking is, it's patrolling.
[01:51:13] It's just on the ground.
[01:51:14] It's a different perspective.
[01:51:16] You know, stocking, you learn so much
[01:51:20] from just laying with your face,
[01:51:22] sucking the earth of what we call skull dragon.
[01:51:25] You might be the first person that I've heard say
[01:51:27] stocking was fun.
[01:51:28] Like most guys that go through the SEAL sniper course,
[01:51:31] they're like, stocking is not fun.
[01:51:33] I would say, because it's kind of, it's a game.
[01:51:38] You know, you're going up against a guy
[01:51:40] that's a trained observer and they're on glass.
[01:51:43] And the ability for you to be able to come in to,
[01:51:46] you know, 200 yards, you know what I mean,
[01:51:48] get two rounds off undetected and stock out.
[01:51:52] Yeah, it's amazing.
[01:51:53] I mean, it's just, it's amazing of the ability
[01:51:55] to hide, blend and deceive is pretty cool.
[01:52:00] And if you understand how that all works,
[01:52:03] I mean, you don't even need a ghillie suit.
[01:52:05] You could be literally naked and stock.
[01:52:08] If you understand how, you know,
[01:52:11] this is the stocking of blending backdrop, you know,
[01:52:14] the cover.
[01:52:16] So it was, it was a lot of fun.
[01:52:17] Plus you just get a lot of really good Marines.
[01:52:21] We used to get advanced course.
[01:52:22] We'd have Navy SEALs come through.
[01:52:23] We'd have Army Rangers come through up there.
[01:52:26] British Royal Commando.
[01:52:27] We actually have a British Royal on the staff at Quantico.
[01:52:30] We have a really good relationship with the Brits.
[01:52:34] So it's just a, you know, it's a fun time
[01:52:36] when you've got like 24 great Americans
[01:52:38] that just want to shoot bolt guns, you know what I mean?
[01:52:42] And look through glass.
[01:52:43] It's just a fun time.
[01:52:46] Everybody's there with a purpose.
[01:52:48] Like there's not, you know,
[01:52:49] the leadership aspect is kind of gone.
[01:52:51] You don't necessarily, you lead by example, you know what I mean?
[01:52:55] Like when I'm looking at an instructor, you know,
[01:52:57] if I walk in on training day one and the instructor looks
[01:53:01] like a seabag with lips and the first thing he's going to tell
[01:53:03] me how he used to be a badass, you know what I mean?
[01:53:06] Dude, you're 33 years old.
[01:53:08] You know what I mean?
[01:53:09] Like nobody's old here.
[01:53:11] You know what I mean?
[01:53:12] You know, but in that military, you think of,
[01:53:14] man, that guy's an old man.
[01:53:16] You know what I mean?
[01:53:17] He's 34, brother.
[01:53:18] You know what I mean?
[01:53:19] Like you should be in the prime in your 30s.
[01:53:23] So, you know, I always liked that about the snipers
[01:53:27] and even the, the process school, it's up the road up here.
[01:53:30] I'm sure it's the same with buds.
[01:53:31] I mean, the instructors that are there, you know,
[01:53:33] you just looking at them and I mean, they just,
[01:53:35] they look the part.
[01:53:36] They're better.
[01:53:37] Yeah.
[01:53:38] I mean, and they can do anything that they're asking
[01:53:41] the student to do, which is, is a super cool way
[01:53:45] of that, that leadership and then holding yourself accountable
[01:53:47] to be, to being able to, to perform at any given time.
[01:53:52] Yeah.
[01:53:54] So where are you when September 11th happens?
[01:53:57] Is this where you're at?
[01:53:58] Is this where your station when September 11th happens?
[01:54:00] Yep.
[01:54:01] I'm up at Quantico.
[01:54:02] That's why I call it, the world changed in nine miles.
[01:54:07] We got the students off and I went,
[01:54:08] there's a loop up at Quantico over where sniper school is.
[01:54:12] You can run over by TVS.
[01:54:13] When you say you got the students off,
[01:54:14] what do you mean?
[01:54:15] You caught them loose?
[01:54:16] No, no, no, like they're just, you know,
[01:54:17] they get them in in the morning.
[01:54:18] They're going to go to the range.
[01:54:19] They're going to do an observation exercise.
[01:54:21] They're going to do, you know what I mean?
[01:54:22] And there's another instructor that has them.
[01:54:23] Cause you know, when, on the instructor cadre,
[01:54:25] you kind of have to manage your time of, you know,
[01:54:28] obviously I got to be there when the students are there
[01:54:30] as the chief instructor.
[01:54:31] And then we got to get the day going.
[01:54:32] If I'm on the platform first or if I'm, so,
[01:54:34] and I always enjoy getting a run in, you know,
[01:54:37] throughout the day, get a chance to work out,
[01:54:39] go to the pool, do something.
[01:54:41] So that day on September 11th, we got, you know,
[01:54:44] we got students on deck.
[01:54:45] We get them off and going and,
[01:54:47] and I take off over towards the FBI Academy.
[01:54:49] So I'm right over there by the FBI Academy
[01:54:51] and the basic school.
[01:54:53] And there's a nine mile loop that goes around.
[01:54:56] And I take off, I let the guys know,
[01:54:58] Hey man, I'm going to go for a run.
[01:54:59] I'm going to run the loop.
[01:55:00] And they know exactly where I'm going.
[01:55:03] And so I'm, I'm off and running.
[01:55:05] And as I'm making my way in and around over by what they,
[01:55:08] they have a called Lake Lunga that's over at Quantico
[01:55:12] next to the FBI Academy.
[01:55:14] And I'm coming in and I'm seeing like a lot of aircraft
[01:55:17] like flying around.
[01:55:18] You know, the FBI always has like stuff going on.
[01:55:21] We got the hostage rescue team that's there as well.
[01:55:24] But then it's just like aircraft like Helos.
[01:55:27] Yeah. Helos and stuff.
[01:55:28] Like it's a lot of activity, which is that,
[01:55:30] but then all the black vehicles are just leaving
[01:55:34] the FBI compound.
[01:55:36] And yeah, cause you got it.
[01:55:38] That's the funny thing about like at Quantico
[01:55:41] that day before we used to not have gates.
[01:55:45] You could literally drive up I 95 and pull off the exit
[01:55:49] and drive straight on to range four
[01:55:51] with the sniper students laying right there on the range.
[01:55:53] And you didn't go through a gate.
[01:55:56] You didn't, nobody checked your ID card.
[01:55:58] Nothing. There was just no gates.
[01:56:01] And so I'm, I'm, I'm running back
[01:56:03] and I'm seeing all these vehicles fly out.
[01:56:05] And by the time I get back to the school house,
[01:56:08] it's kind of like, you know, I'm like, what the,
[01:56:10] what the hell's going on?
[01:56:11] And that's when, you know, the Pentagon's being hit,
[01:56:15] you know, New York, 9 11's being hit.
[01:56:18] And it's just like, it's game on.
[01:56:23] And the world changed in nine, nine miles.
[01:56:26] I mean, within a nine mile run, man,
[01:56:27] the world completely changed.
[01:56:29] We had sandbags, barracks.
[01:56:31] I mean, they're, they're man and gates.
[01:56:33] They're making gates.
[01:56:34] I mean, it was, it was total anarchy in Quantico.
[01:56:37] And as, and as you can imagine, I mean,
[01:56:39] being so close to the Pentagon of them hitting the Pentagon,
[01:56:43] they got guys that are coming in, you know,
[01:56:44] they're wanting to know like how can Marines support?
[01:56:47] That kind of was odd to me that like,
[01:56:50] we didn't have authorization to go out to like help.
[01:56:54] You know what I mean?
[01:56:54] Like you got all these Marines.
[01:56:56] You got all these folks like, why aren't Marines?
[01:56:58] Like, you know what I mean?
[01:56:59] Bring the Marines in.
[01:57:01] But then you have to look at it as like the events over.
[01:57:05] Like, you know what I mean?
[01:57:06] They flew into the buildings.
[01:57:06] You know, we're all thinking like, what's kind of next?
[01:57:09] No, that was it.
[01:57:11] That was the big event.
[01:57:12] And, you know, after that, then everybody knew
[01:57:17] at that point in time, it's go time.
[01:57:21] We're, you know, and the Marines are, you know,
[01:57:23] Army, I'm sure with you guys, with the teams,
[01:57:26] like everybody's watching, thinking, yeah,
[01:57:28] when are we going to deploy?
[01:57:31] When's the first action is going to start coming in?
[01:57:35] But yeah, I was at Quantico.
[01:57:38] So then what happens after that?
[01:57:42] Well, I had met a couple of guys
[01:57:47] through being up there at a sniper school.
[01:57:50] And there was a certain unit,
[01:57:53] and I was hoping to get selection into that.
[01:57:56] It's kind of, you know, one of the guys recommended me.
[01:57:58] So I went in, I went through recommendations.
[01:58:00] And with that, they needed a place for me
[01:58:04] to kind of hang out and await selection,
[01:58:07] like in the national capital region.
[01:58:09] So John Allen was the commandant and midshipman
[01:58:14] at the Naval Academy.
[01:58:15] And I had known him from down in the six Marines.
[01:58:19] And, you know, John Allen was like, yeah, hey,
[01:58:22] I'll take JD, bring him up to the Naval Academy.
[01:58:24] And of course I was like, yeah,
[01:58:25] I'm going to the Naval Academy.
[01:58:26] Like I had never been to Annapolis, Maryland
[01:58:29] a day in my life.
[01:58:30] I didn't, I mean, I knew the Academy,
[01:58:34] but like my perception of a Naval Academy graduate
[01:58:38] was Doug Zembeck.
[01:58:41] Like that's what I expected.
[01:58:43] And then my other guy that I worked with
[01:58:45] at a sniper school was John Bradley.
[01:58:48] John Bradley was a three time national boxing champ
[01:58:51] at the Academy.
[01:58:52] His call sign was big people.
[01:58:55] You know, half black, half German.
[01:58:58] I mean, the dude was like Rambo.
[01:59:00] You know what I mean?
[01:59:02] I'm still really good friends with John Brad.
[01:59:04] He's a great human being.
[01:59:07] But, you know, I used to make fun of them like, you know,
[01:59:09] cause he'd wear like Navy boxing and, you know,
[01:59:11] and of course Doug was a Navy wrestler.
[01:59:13] And I was like, dude, I want my taxpayer dollars back.
[01:59:16] There's no way you guys went to the Naval Academy.
[01:59:19] But that's my perception of the Naval Academy.
[01:59:22] You know, the officers that I had dealt with
[01:59:26] were, they'd come out of the Naval Academy.
[01:59:27] They were top notch.
[01:59:30] So that was, that was my perception going in.
[01:59:35] I can remember when I went up to check into the Naval Academy.
[01:59:38] I like, again, I didn't know where it was.
[01:59:40] I just knew it was in Annapolis.
[01:59:41] So I'm driving around Annapolis.
[01:59:42] I get over top of the Severn Bridge and I'm looking down.
[01:59:46] But I think that's like, it looks like the state capital.
[01:59:50] And there's like two women that are walking across the bridge.
[01:59:54] And I'm like, excuse me, ladies,
[01:59:55] do you guys like know where the Naval Academy is?
[01:59:57] And they're laughing like, dude, that's it.
[01:59:59] I was like, wow, like that's next level.
[02:00:04] Like, I mean, it's impressive.
[02:00:07] So I went down and checked into the Academy
[02:00:11] and, you know, John Allen,
[02:00:13] and at first I really didn't have a job for me to do
[02:00:15] because like the midshipmen had already started.
[02:00:19] And I really didn't know like what I was getting into.
[02:00:22] Like I didn't know like what they do at the Naval Academy.
[02:00:26] And your anticipation is that you're waiting to go to selection
[02:00:29] for a special mission unit
[02:00:30] and you're gonna be there for six months or something
[02:00:32] and then you'll roll out.
[02:00:33] Yep, that's my mindset.
[02:00:35] And, you know, and John Allen, you know, great guy, wicked smart.
[02:00:40] I was super excited because the library
[02:00:43] at the Naval Academy is off the chain.
[02:00:45] I mean, like it's off the chain.
[02:00:47] And I mean, I love a library.
[02:00:49] You know what I mean?
[02:00:51] And I get the, so I mean, there's a lot of history up there.
[02:00:54] I mean, Tecumseh court, you know what I mean?
[02:00:57] Like they got Tecumseh, you know what I mean?
[02:00:59] And so it was a bit of a root of awakening.
[02:01:03] Like, so the first morning kind of like, you know,
[02:01:05] this morning I got up, you know what I mean?
[02:01:07] I'm gonna go for a run.
[02:01:08] So that's how I like to like get myself like situational awareness
[02:01:11] of like get orientated is run.
[02:01:13] So I'll run around.
[02:01:15] So I'm running around Annapolis looking at the town and stuff.
[02:01:18] And I make my way back in and I'm on Tecumseh court.
[02:01:21] And as I'm in Tecumseh court, I'm standing there,
[02:01:23] I'm looking, I mean, they got like monuments
[02:01:25] like all over the place.
[02:01:26] I mean, the chapels there, it's pretty banging.
[02:01:29] They got like a bunch of different poles
[02:01:31] and they got Tecumseh.
[02:01:33] And I'm looking at the Cumsun next thing you know,
[02:01:35] like there's this Navy officer.
[02:01:38] He's like, hey, excuse me, hey, what are you doing?
[02:01:40] And I wasn't wearing anything.
[02:01:41] I said, Marines on it.
[02:01:43] And he's like, hey, you're not allowed to be out here
[02:01:45] in PT gear.
[02:01:47] I was like, am I not on a military installation?
[02:01:50] Like with the Navy, we don't like to PT
[02:01:53] and you don't want us to say, like it was,
[02:01:55] like it was odd, like the rules that they had there
[02:01:59] at the academy.
[02:02:01] And, you know, John Allen sent me over with the football team.
[02:02:04] Where couldn't you be with PT uniform on?
[02:02:06] I don't know.
[02:02:07] They didn't like PT gear being out there
[02:02:10] in Tecumseh court, like where they do like.
[02:02:12] So specifically Tecumseh court?
[02:02:13] Yeah, it's like, I guess it's a ceremonial area.
[02:02:17] Like you're supposed to be like in the Marine Corps,
[02:02:19] like everywhere's a PT area.
[02:02:20] You know what I mean?
[02:02:21] Like you can PT wherever you want.
[02:02:23] You know what I mean? Like I'd never been told,
[02:02:26] don't be out in front of people in this area in PT gear.
[02:02:31] So that was kind of odd.
[02:02:32] And then, you know, so I went over with the football team
[02:02:35] because at first I was like, oh, you know, college football.
[02:02:38] And I asked the coaches like, hey,
[02:02:41] is this like open practice?
[02:02:42] Is it cool if I watch?
[02:02:44] You know, they never like, yeah, dude.
[02:02:46] You know what I mean?
[02:02:46] You can come over and watch.
[02:02:47] And it was Coach Paul Johnson at the time
[02:02:50] and the strength coach and stuff.
[02:02:51] And I went over there and you know, the kids
[02:02:54] on the football team, I would say,
[02:02:59] yeah, I felt out of place at the Naval Academy.
[02:03:03] Like I didn't belong, like there's no Marines in the brochure.
[02:03:07] And there's definitely no Marine gunnies in the brochure.
[02:03:11] There were other gunnies that were there.
[02:03:13] But like you said, I mean, I was there.
[02:03:15] I just come from sniper school.
[02:03:16] I had a different outlook than a lot of the other folks.
[02:03:23] And so when I was over there,
[02:03:24] like the midshipment on the football team,
[02:03:26] like they immediately came over
[02:03:27] and started talking to me, asking me, you know, like,
[02:03:30] hey, who are you?
[02:03:31] What are you doing?
[02:03:32] Cause I wasn't in uniform.
[02:03:33] And I was like, yeah, hey, I'm gunny.
[02:03:35] And that's how I introduced myself to like Coach Paul Johnson
[02:03:37] and I think like, cause the coaches aren't military.
[02:03:41] So I think they thought like my first name was Gunny.
[02:03:44] And still to this day, they call me Gunny, you know,
[02:03:47] which I don't care.
[02:03:49] You know what I mean?
[02:03:50] And the football players and I, man,
[02:03:52] I got to stand out there and watch some of these kids
[02:03:54] that are going to compete on division one level.
[02:03:57] And they joined the academy with not really a lot of hopes
[02:04:01] of going to the NFL.
[02:04:04] But the kids on the team and the athletes that are there
[02:04:08] at the academy, the midshipmen are, I mean,
[02:04:10] they're just, they are really good people.
[02:04:14] You know, I look at them just like they joined them.
[02:04:17] They just read a different brochure than I did.
[02:04:19] And obviously scored like way higher on the SAT
[02:04:22] cause I never took that test.
[02:04:24] You know what I mean?
[02:04:25] But they were like really, really good kids at the academy.
[02:04:31] And I just had a phenomenal experience
[02:04:36] being there with the midshipmen.
[02:04:38] They welcomed me with open arms.
[02:04:40] The midship, I had more fun.
[02:04:41] So what job did you actually get assigned?
[02:04:43] I ended up being a senior enlisted advisor
[02:04:45] for 30th company.
[02:04:48] And so there's, how many companies are there?
[02:04:49] There's 30.
[02:04:50] Okay.
[02:04:51] And obviously 30th company had like a bad rap
[02:04:54] before I got there, you know what I mean?
[02:04:56] So they had them living on zero deck right next to the battle,
[02:05:00] the battalion officer.
[02:05:02] Well, the battalion officer was a guy named Allen Eshbock.
[02:05:05] And Allen Eshbock, great guy,
[02:05:07] went to Millersville State up in Pennsylvania,
[02:05:10] ran cross country and he was a Navy captain.
[02:05:13] And I had never really been around a Navy captain.
[02:05:17] You know what I mean?
[02:05:18] Not a lot of them, you know,
[02:05:19] I didn't interact with the ship's captain when I was,
[02:05:23] he didn't come down to sell block and hang out and slap spades.
[02:05:27] You know, so Allen Eshbock, he'd see me up running.
[02:05:31] You know what I mean?
[02:05:32] And he ran cross country.
[02:05:33] He was a surface warfare officer.
[02:05:35] He had the Arleigh Burke, you know,
[02:05:37] he ended up taking over the San Jacinto.
[02:05:40] And you know, I already kind of mentioned my kind of like
[02:05:43] being a ship's captain has got to be like a cool job.
[02:05:47] Well, so Allen started coming running with me in the morning.
[02:05:51] And he lived right there on the yard.
[02:05:53] And like these battalion officers,
[02:05:55] the houses that they get on the Naval Academy
[02:05:58] are pretty banging.
[02:05:59] And he would have me over for dinner and stuff.
[02:06:01] I got to know his wife, his kids.
[02:06:03] I mean, he was just a super nice guy.
[02:06:05] And so I ended up having this relationship
[02:06:07] with this Navy, this Navy captain.
[02:06:10] And he was just a great guy.
[02:06:11] We'd be really good friends.
[02:06:12] And we're still friends to this day.
[02:06:15] And he was about ready to roll out
[02:06:17] to go take over the USS San Jac.
[02:06:20] And as he was leaving,
[02:06:21] we were getting a new battalion officer coming in.
[02:06:24] And he's like, hey, he's like, JD is there?
[02:06:26] Which was kind of cool.
[02:06:27] The captain would call me JD.
[02:06:29] And he was like, hey, he's like,
[02:06:31] is there anything I can do for you like before I leave?
[02:06:34] And I was like, yeah,
[02:06:35] can you move 30th company up to eight four?
[02:06:39] So it's the highest point at the Navy.
[02:06:41] Nobody goes to eight four.
[02:06:44] Plus the midshipmen that have to walk the class every day,
[02:06:47] they're gonna have to walk all the way to eight four
[02:06:49] like every single day.
[02:06:51] And you have the midshipmen have to chop.
[02:06:53] They call that chopping where they like run
[02:06:55] and say, go Navy, beat Army.
[02:06:57] And did you see him when you were up there speaking?
[02:06:59] Like they do this chopping.
[02:07:00] Is that punishment?
[02:07:01] Or is that just standard operating procedure?
[02:07:02] Just standard operating procedure.
[02:07:04] Like I didn't know what they were doing.
[02:07:05] Like wait, just when you're going from class to class,
[02:07:07] every time you square a corner or something,
[02:07:09] you gotta say like go Navy, beat Army.
[02:07:11] Something like that.
[02:07:12] Yeah. And they call it chopping.
[02:07:13] So it's like they're running and they're in dress shoes,
[02:07:16] which makes absolutely no sense.
[02:07:18] But
[02:07:19] The sense is kind of thrown out the way.
[02:07:20] Yeah, the sense is thrown out the way.
[02:07:21] And so I'm watching these kids like,
[02:07:23] and they're calling it chopping.
[02:07:24] And I'm like, interesting.
[02:07:26] You know what I mean?
[02:07:27] Go Navy, beat Army.
[02:07:28] Okay, I got it.
[02:07:29] So that's a lot of chopping to get up to the top of eight four.
[02:07:32] You know what I mean?
[02:07:33] And then I knew nobody would come visit me.
[02:07:36] People are just lazy.
[02:07:37] You know what I mean?
[02:07:38] Like nobody's going to come up to eight four.
[02:07:39] I'm going to live up on eight four.
[02:07:41] It's going to be great.
[02:07:42] So eight four is a building?
[02:07:44] Yeah, eight four.
[02:07:45] It's like Bancroft Hall.
[02:07:46] Like when you saw Bancroft,
[02:07:47] I was all the way in the very back.
[02:07:50] So I was the farthest away from Tecumsecourt as possible.
[02:07:54] And I was the closest to the football locker as possible.
[02:07:58] And you know, I mean, the athletes
[02:08:02] and the, and being assigned up there,
[02:08:05] it was a great place to be as a, as a senior enlisted.
[02:08:12] Because like, I'm not teaching these kids.
[02:08:14] Like if you're an officer and you got to get,
[02:08:16] like I was there with Randall, Lieutenant Randall was there.
[02:08:19] You know what I mean?
[02:08:20] He was a company officer and like company officers
[02:08:21] have to like teach stuff.
[02:08:23] Like they got to go over to academia and teach doubly
[02:08:27] or they got to like do stuff.
[02:08:29] I'm not teaching doubly.
[02:08:31] You know what I mean?
[02:08:31] And you know, they're not gonna,
[02:08:33] I was, I had to do is like just hang out.
[02:08:35] You know what I mean?
[02:08:36] Like a full-time mentor.
[02:08:37] Yeah. And hang out and just be there for the kids
[02:08:40] if they need anything.
[02:08:41] And, and, and I work with a Navy Lieutenant, great guy.
[02:08:45] It was a lot of fun.
[02:08:46] But I mean, so when the kids go to class, it's like,
[02:08:48] you got nothing to do, but you've got an Olympic pool.
[02:08:51] You've got batting cages.
[02:08:52] You got football cages.
[02:08:53] You got an indoor track.
[02:08:54] You got a sailing center.
[02:08:56] You got soccer fields.
[02:08:57] You got a rifle team.
[02:08:59] You got like, dude, I didn't,
[02:09:01] it was a camp.
[02:09:03] I mean, I literally, it was, I was back at camp
[02:09:05] except like they have like the best facilities,
[02:09:09] like known to man, I'd go out and throw BP for the baseball.
[02:09:12] I'd go out and do, you know, batting practice.
[02:09:14] I just get to know the kids, you know,
[02:09:17] that were going through.
[02:09:18] And if they had questions about, you know,
[02:09:19] joining the Marine Corps and stuff like that.
[02:09:21] And then especially with the football team.
[02:09:23] The one thing that I learned there is like, you know,
[02:09:25] the football players don't have to do like the,
[02:09:28] the Friday parades and they get out of a lot of other stuff.
[02:09:31] They do their own meals and stuff.
[02:09:33] And I think that, you know, there's a lot of folks
[02:09:35] that don't understand what it takes to compete
[02:09:38] at division one level football.
[02:09:42] You know what I mean?
[02:09:43] Like, do other athletes get out of that stuff too?
[02:09:46] No, not like football gets out.
[02:09:49] And I wouldn't really say-
[02:09:50] What about the wrestlers?
[02:09:51] No.
[02:09:53] Soccer players?
[02:09:54] No.
[02:09:55] So it's just football.
[02:09:56] Yeah.
[02:09:57] They, I mean, the other, like the other sports teams,
[02:09:59] if they've got a game, they'll get out of something.
[02:10:02] But like football is, is looked at, I mean,
[02:10:07] is looked at differently at the academy.
[02:10:10] And then you're hiring a coach like coach Paul Johnson.
[02:10:14] He came from Georgia Tech.
[02:10:15] Great guy.
[02:10:16] He's the highest paid guy in the Navy.
[02:10:19] Like this dude makes more than the C and O.
[02:10:22] This is like the head coach at Army makes more
[02:10:24] than the chief of staff of the Army,
[02:10:26] which kind of puts stuff into perspective.
[02:10:28] You know what I mean?
[02:10:29] Like, well, wait a minute, man.
[02:10:30] Like I can make more money being the head coach
[02:10:32] at Navy than the C and O.
[02:10:34] You know what I mean?
[02:10:35] Like, like this dude's driving a nuclear submarine.
[02:10:38] You know what I mean?
[02:10:39] But the football coach, and it's just like, you know,
[02:10:41] Ken Neumott that's there right now.
[02:10:43] Great guy.
[02:10:44] He was an O line coach when I was there.
[02:10:46] And the coaches just doing a job.
[02:10:47] They get hired to do a job, compete at the division one level,
[02:10:50] pack the stands and the football team,
[02:10:52] because of the amount of money that they make, you know,
[02:10:55] at stadiums, ticket sales, stuff like that,
[02:10:57] pays for a lot of the other sports programs
[02:11:00] to be able to take place.
[02:11:01] Yeah, it's gotta be recruiting too.
[02:11:03] They probably take recruiting budgets,
[02:11:04] probably paying that coach's salary.
[02:11:06] Yeah, so, and the coaches are great.
[02:11:09] And the kids that they get on that football team,
[02:11:12] I mean, you know, people are like, oh, they get out
[02:11:14] of the Friday afternoon herd across the grass.
[02:11:16] You know what I mean?
[02:11:17] Like really?
[02:11:18] They're up at five o'clock in the morning.
[02:11:20] They gotta watch films.
[02:11:21] They got tapes.
[02:11:22] They got practice.
[02:11:23] They got weights.
[02:11:24] They got, I mean, they have to perform.
[02:11:26] You know what I mean?
[02:11:27] On Saturday, you know, their weekends, their thanksgivings,
[02:11:31] if they get a bowl game, you know, what they sacrifice
[02:11:33] to be able to play division one football
[02:11:35] and then go serve their country just like everybody else.
[02:11:38] So they're just there on a different aspect.
[02:11:41] I think some of the folks just don't,
[02:11:42] they don't look at it that way,
[02:11:43] but the student athletes at the academy are phenomenal.
[02:11:47] I mean, they're just one, the team players.
[02:11:49] You know what I mean?
[02:11:50] Like if you leave a team sport from the academy
[02:11:55] and join the Marine Corps,
[02:11:56] it's a very easy transition.
[02:11:58] You know, because you're just leaving one team
[02:12:00] and you're just joining another team.
[02:12:03] And the athletes transition really well into the Marine Corps.
[02:12:08] And you know, I just think that the kids
[02:12:11] that were on the team, I mean,
[02:12:12] they, I had like a lot of fun with those kids.
[02:12:16] And then, you know, some of them,
[02:12:17] when they select Marines at the end of the year,
[02:12:19] you got like, oh, line guys, you got defensive line guys
[02:12:22] that have never run farther than 100 yards in their life.
[02:12:25] And now it's the end of football season.
[02:12:27] And oh, hey, by the way,
[02:12:29] you got to meet height and weight standards by May.
[02:12:31] Yeah, that's hard for some of the guys that go to Buds.
[02:12:35] You know, they got to like totally change their physique.
[02:12:38] Like they got to become a different kind of human being.
[02:12:41] Like I got one friend that was at the Naval Academy
[02:12:45] played football and I don't want to say his nickname,
[02:12:48] but he's a big guy.
[02:12:50] And even when I know him, he's a big guy, like a big guy.
[02:12:53] But apparently I didn't know him when he played football,
[02:12:55] but he had to like change who he was as a human being
[02:13:00] to get from playing whatever freaking linemen
[02:13:04] at the Naval Academy to go and run, you know,
[02:13:07] 12 miles and four miles and six miles.
[02:13:10] And you know, like all that running.
[02:13:12] Just to tell you, you're a different human.
[02:13:14] Yeah.
[02:13:15] That's a challenge.
[02:13:16] Yeah, and then you got to teach them how to run.
[02:13:19] Like, you know, some of them just, they don't,
[02:13:22] I mean, there's a big difference
[02:13:23] between sprinting a hundred yards and running three miles.
[02:13:27] And then, oh, by the way, you're going to go to TBS.
[02:13:31] You know what I mean?
[02:13:31] Especially if you go to Marines,
[02:13:32] but even if they're, if they're going,
[02:13:34] you know, surface warfare or going to,
[02:13:35] I mean, that's a big transition for a lot of those guys
[02:13:40] that are out there and, you know,
[02:13:42] and I would run them in a mile and a half.
[02:13:43] The only thing that I could do,
[02:13:44] my biggest shock when I was at the Academy was like,
[02:13:49] I was talking to some of the, Mitch,
[02:13:50] and one of them was, it was Jason Copeland.
[02:13:52] He's a Marine Lieutenant Colonel now.
[02:13:54] He's the Amphitrubitian Commander.
[02:13:55] Great human being.
[02:13:58] So Jason, I was like, hey,
[02:13:59] what do we guys got going on tomorrow morning?
[02:14:01] Like, you guys got your physical fitness test.
[02:14:03] I heard, because I didn't know like what these kids did.
[02:14:06] And he's like, yeah, we'll meet out by the,
[02:14:08] by the Farragut and, you know,
[02:14:10] the PT department takes care of the physical fitness test.
[02:14:14] And they run the PRT and I was like, oh yeah, what is it?
[02:14:16] You know what I mean?
[02:14:17] Okay, well we do, you know, pushups, setups,
[02:14:19] and then we do a mile and a half run.
[02:14:20] I was like, okay, that's cool.
[02:14:21] What time do you go?
[02:14:22] I'd like to come out.
[02:14:24] Well, most of the staff there are like,
[02:14:26] why, it's early in the morning.
[02:14:28] Like, why are you gunning?
[02:14:29] Why are you, you don't have to go.
[02:14:31] I was like, well, I know I don't have to go,
[02:14:35] but I should go and run with the kids.
[02:14:40] So I showed up and they do each battalion.
[02:14:43] So there's six battalions and each battalion gets a day
[02:14:47] and they show up and there's, you know, five battalions
[02:14:50] and, or five companies and each battalion,
[02:14:52] they're gonna run five physical readiness tests.
[02:14:56] So I show up and, you know,
[02:14:58] they're only gonna run a mile and a half.
[02:15:00] So, you know, so for me, I was like, well,
[02:15:03] I asked the PE guy, like, do you care
[02:15:05] if I like run with them?
[02:15:07] Am I allowed to run with them?
[02:15:08] You know what I mean?
[02:15:09] Like I'll do a 10, 30 pace, just run along.
[02:15:12] And, you know what I mean?
[02:15:12] Kind of give the kids an earmark of like where I'm at.
[02:15:15] Cause I used to do that at cyber school.
[02:15:17] Like if I'd run the three mile and I'm like,
[02:15:19] hey, I'm gonna run right at a, of what is a 20, 30 pace.
[02:15:26] So for three miles, I'm gonna run it in 20 minutes
[02:15:28] and 30 seconds because that's worth 85 points.
[02:15:32] So if you see JD, he's worth 85 points.
[02:15:34] If you're in front of me, you know what I mean?
[02:15:36] Cause it's all the numbers game.
[02:15:37] If you're not good at pullups, you better bank it on the run.
[02:15:39] If you're not, you know what I mean?
[02:15:40] So it's your strength and weaknesses.
[02:15:42] So I was like, you know, and I was like, okay,
[02:15:44] this is the naval academy.
[02:15:45] Like it's only a mile and a half.
[02:15:47] You got to do it in 10, 30.
[02:15:48] That's seven minute pace, man.
[02:15:49] It's pretty easy.
[02:15:51] So as I'm out there and I'm watching the kids
[02:15:54] and I'm running along with them, you know,
[02:15:55] kind of going along and I'm like,
[02:15:56] hey, where, where, where are these guys going?
[02:15:58] Like they're falling out.
[02:15:59] Like where it's only a mile and a half and they're falling out.
[02:16:01] And I was just like, well, they, they failed.
[02:16:04] Like they didn't pass the run.
[02:16:05] So I go over to the PE department and I'm kind of like,
[02:16:08] so what happens to these kids, man?
[02:16:09] They like pack their shit.
[02:16:10] They done.
[02:16:11] And they're like, no, remediate.
[02:16:13] You know what I mean?
[02:16:14] They're going to remediate the hell out of them.
[02:16:16] And I always thought like, well, this is something
[02:16:18] that I could help out.
[02:16:21] You know, I can, I can come out and run with these kids.
[02:16:24] And so I used to go run when they do the PRTs
[02:16:28] for the, for the brigade of midshipmen.
[02:16:30] I would run 30 of them back to back at a 10, 30 pace.
[02:16:36] And I was like, yeah, only five a day though.
[02:16:39] Oh, okay.
[02:16:40] So, you know what I mean?
[02:16:41] It's really not that hard.
[02:16:42] It's only like eight, eight and a half miles.
[02:16:43] You know what I mean?
[02:16:44] And for me, I'm not a runner.
[02:16:46] I just have a running problem.
[02:16:48] You know what I mean?
[02:16:49] So for me, like that seven minute pace was, you know,
[02:16:52] it's a pretty good workout for me.
[02:16:53] I'd come out and I would run with the kids and kind of,
[02:16:56] you know what I mean?
[02:16:57] And, you know, kind of help them and push them.
[02:17:00] Like if they're going to fall back,
[02:17:01] this is something that I can actually, you know,
[02:17:04] help out with the naval academy.
[02:17:06] If there's a kid struggling with a mile and a half,
[02:17:08] I can help him out and get him to pass so that, you know,
[02:17:11] because once he goes to the fleet and he's in the Navy,
[02:17:13] that's not a required, 1030 is not a requirement in the fleet.
[02:17:17] It's just the naval academy requirement for officers.
[02:17:20] So, but hopefully, yeah.
[02:17:21] So I used to do that with the kids and I would get excited.
[02:17:26] You know what I mean?
[02:17:26] To go out and run the PRTs with the midshipmen.
[02:17:30] Cause I mean, it was hysterical.
[02:17:32] Just, you know, watching them for the mile and a half.
[02:17:36] How is the psychological molding of the guys
[02:17:41] or the people or the kids that are going to the naval academy
[02:17:45] compared to what you saw at bootcamp?
[02:17:49] Well, it's, yeah, there's, it's the country club.
[02:17:55] Yeah, I would say it's kind of like being a Catholic school
[02:17:57] and you're just a nun.
[02:17:59] You know what I mean?
[02:18:00] You're a nun.
[02:18:02] Yeah, it's, it's, it's not, yeah, it's night and day.
[02:18:04] You know, they do plebe summer that's there,
[02:18:08] but it's the, it's the upper class
[02:18:11] are kind of running plebe summer.
[02:18:12] And they do, I mean, they do a pretty good job,
[02:18:15] but they're not drill instructors.
[02:18:17] You know what I mean?
[02:18:18] They're not smoking it out.
[02:18:18] They're not, you know, the shock and all isn't as much,
[02:18:22] but they do a, they do a pretty good job with them
[02:18:25] at a plebe summer and, you know, and being a plebe
[02:18:28] at the naval academy to me was like,
[02:18:29] dude, that just does not look like fun.
[02:18:32] Yeah, it looks awful.
[02:18:32] Like at all.
[02:18:34] One, I gotta say, go Navy beat army
[02:18:36] and chop around the place in my dress shoes.
[02:18:39] You know, I know liberty.
[02:18:40] I don't get to really do anything.
[02:18:42] I, you know, the knowledge that they push
[02:18:45] on those kids there though,
[02:18:46] and the, and the education level is phenomenal.
[02:18:49] And then I would say like the, the comradery of the,
[02:18:53] of each class is just, it's outstanding
[02:18:57] with the naval academy of bringing those kids together,
[02:19:00] you know, sharing and, and the, and the suffering together
[02:19:04] all four years at the academy.
[02:19:07] But it is a, it's a great institution
[02:19:09] and they put out a, a great product in my opinion.
[02:19:14] Probably the, the best to watch was the ones
[02:19:18] that wanted to go special warfare, Navy seals.
[02:19:21] That was the most while I was there, you know,
[02:19:24] Randall was a lieutenant and he kind of ran that pre-buds
[02:19:28] kind of selection process there.
[02:19:30] It's a tight selection.
[02:19:32] Oh, it is the most comp, I mean,
[02:19:34] he's got like a couple of hundred kids that want to be,
[02:19:36] I mean, there's only a thousand of them
[02:19:38] and a couple hundred of them want to become a seal.
[02:19:40] Yeah. And there's like 15 billets,
[02:19:43] something like that, 15 slots.
[02:19:44] Yeah. And yeah, I've been, it's always been cool.
[02:19:48] I've done, during COVID, I did some,
[02:19:51] some virtual training with the, with the midshipmen.
[02:19:56] I've gone there alive.
[02:19:57] It's been awesome to go up there alive and, and just,
[02:19:59] you know, talk about leadership from my perspective.
[02:20:01] And they're definitely stoked on it.
[02:20:03] Very cool.
[02:20:04] But yeah, that competitiveness for the seal billets,
[02:20:06] in any, whether you're ROT, in the,
[02:20:08] any of the officer seal billets is,
[02:20:11] it's hard, it's very, very difficult.
[02:20:13] Probably, well, because the recruiting,
[02:20:15] because so many people want to go into, to that job.
[02:20:20] And it's a rough job to get into.
[02:20:22] Yeah, I would say, yeah.
[02:20:25] But what those kids would, you know,
[02:20:27] the thing that, that I learned while I was there,
[02:20:29] was kind of disappointing for me being a Marine,
[02:20:33] was the, the Marine selection.
[02:20:34] So you would have like, you know, I mean,
[02:20:36] let's say you got a hundred kids that put,
[02:20:38] they want to go Navy SEALs as another choice.
[02:20:41] And then Marine ground as their second.
[02:20:43] And you would have Marines that were up on the yard,
[02:20:46] going, that's bullshit.
[02:20:47] You know what I mean?
[02:20:48] If they're not Marine first, we don't want,
[02:20:49] I'm like, these kids are going after,
[02:20:51] like if, if JD was there, who wouldn't,
[02:20:55] it's the Naval Academy, man.
[02:20:56] Like, I mean, they want to go Navy SEAL.
[02:20:58] They're going to compete for the hardest billet going.
[02:21:02] Yeah.
[02:21:03] You know, at least physically.
[02:21:04] Yeah, that's actually another way to look at it,
[02:21:06] is, hey, these guys want the hardest possible job.
[02:21:08] And they're trying to get in the heart,
[02:21:10] the most selective thing.
[02:21:11] So they're taking the most selective thing.
[02:21:13] That's the SEAL billet.
[02:21:15] If they don't get that.
[02:21:16] Yeah, cause that is horrible.
[02:21:17] And I had, I've had a bunch of friends, you know,
[02:21:19] that graduated from the Naval Academy,
[02:21:20] that had to make that call.
[02:21:23] And it's so hard.
[02:21:24] I mean, LEAF didn't get selected out of the Naval Academy.
[02:21:28] SEAF didn't get selected out of the Navy.
[02:21:29] And they both went to, you know, a ship.
[02:21:32] And that's a different personality type
[02:21:35] that is going to be a ship, a swell.
[02:21:37] It's a different, it's a different type of mindset
[02:21:40] than someone that's going to be some kind of a land soldier.
[02:21:44] You know, whether it's a Marine or a special operations guy,
[02:21:46] it's a different type of mindset you have to have.
[02:21:49] And so both, I forget, I have to ask Leif again,
[02:21:53] but you know, he got told the same thing.
[02:21:54] He's like, Hey, there's, it's a waste to put Marine Corps
[02:21:58] after SEALs cause yours is not going to get taken.
[02:22:01] And Leif, you know, would have loved
[02:22:03] if he didn't make it into SEALs, but you know,
[02:22:07] he probably would have gotten picked up for the Marine Corps
[02:22:09] and probably would have never joined the SEAL teams.
[02:22:11] And the Marine Corps would have had a cool officer.
[02:22:13] Yeah, I mean, that's kind of like,
[02:22:15] I knew a lot of these kids, like they would come out and like,
[02:22:17] cause I would run every morning at five.
[02:22:20] You know what I mean?
[02:22:21] So I'd go run and, and I ran a lot like,
[02:22:23] they had a marathon team that was there at the academy.
[02:22:27] So I became like the O-Rap for them.
[02:22:29] So like the Naval Academy would like fly us around.
[02:22:31] So I mean, we're doing Chicago, we're doing Boston,
[02:22:34] we're doing Disney, you know what I mean?
[02:22:37] Like with the midshipmen and, and you know,
[02:22:39] and if they knew that like midshipmen can't leave the yard,
[02:22:42] but if they're running with me,
[02:22:44] then they're allowed to just say, I'm with Gunny,
[02:22:46] you know what I mean?
[02:22:47] And they right out the gate, we'd go run through town.
[02:22:49] So they're not just doing like outers around the academy
[02:22:52] and stuff.
[02:22:53] And you would see just the commitment that those kids had
[02:22:56] that are trying to compete for those billets to include
[02:22:58] the EOD billets as well that are coming out as a,
[02:23:01] you know, as a naval officer to get those billets
[02:23:03] are very hard to get.
[02:23:06] And for us to like miss out on some of those guys and gals
[02:23:10] that, okay, that's great that they put Navy SEAL
[02:23:12] or whatever for the first choice.
[02:23:14] They want Marine's second choice.
[02:23:16] Like they're going to be good.
[02:23:17] Like, you know what I mean?
[02:23:18] Like that did, and they let me sit in on one of these
[02:23:22] selection boards, which was very,
[02:23:23] I'd never been on an officer selection.
[02:23:25] SEAL selection board?
[02:23:26] No, no, no, Marines.
[02:23:27] Oh, okay.
[02:23:28] And everybody's got like these little hidden buttons.
[02:23:30] You know what I mean?
[02:23:31] Of whether or not like you want to vote,
[02:23:32] like yes or no, which I kind of thought was bullshit
[02:23:34] that we're kind of hiding the button.
[02:23:36] Like, dude, you could put my button right out in front
[02:23:38] of everybody.
[02:23:39] You know what I mean?
[02:23:40] Like, nope, don't like that one.
[02:23:41] Everybody can see, you know what I mean?
[02:23:42] That, oh, JD doesn't like him.
[02:23:44] Nope, don't like him.
[02:23:46] And, you know, we had this, this one kid and he's a nice,
[02:23:49] he was a nice kid.
[02:23:51] But there's a lot of nice kids that shouldn't be
[02:23:53] a Marine officer.
[02:23:55] And this guy, like, we're in there.
[02:23:59] And Colonel Inman was the senior Marine on the yard
[02:24:02] at the time.
[02:24:02] And Colonel Inman, great guy.
[02:24:04] Went to the University of Oklahoma, just a phenomenal guy.
[02:24:09] And he's the one that had me in there.
[02:24:10] He's like, yeah, hey, JD, you would like your input.
[02:24:12] You know a lot of these kids.
[02:24:14] You know what I mean?
[02:24:14] I was like, okay, yeah, cool.
[02:24:15] I've never been in here before.
[02:24:18] So I'm sitting there looking and they got a show a picture
[02:24:19] and somebody's going to brief their package kind of thing.
[02:24:22] And then you do the little hidden vote.
[02:24:24] And then, you know, they see on the board,
[02:24:26] okay, yeah, this guy got enough votes.
[02:24:27] He's going to go in the go-powl.
[02:24:29] So he's just going to go in the go-powl.
[02:24:31] They got this one kid that they put up on there.
[02:24:34] And I'm like, oh, this guy, nice kid, seabag with lips, man.
[02:24:38] Like, TBS is going to crush him.
[02:24:41] You know what I mean?
[02:24:41] Like, the heart's there.
[02:24:43] It's just, you know, he's just, he's not going to work out
[02:24:46] as a Marine officer.
[02:24:47] You know what I mean?
[02:24:48] He doesn't have the self-discipline.
[02:24:51] So of course I hit the no and he goes to the go-powl.
[02:24:56] So I'm a little shocked.
[02:24:58] So I was like, excuse me, sir, like, who voted for that guy?
[02:25:04] Like, does anybody here like know him?
[02:25:06] Like, no shit, like, you know the guy.
[02:25:09] Like I've seen him out there
[02:25:10] on the remedial physical fitness field.
[02:25:13] You know what I mean?
[02:25:14] Trying to pass a 10-30.
[02:25:16] Like I looked at it as if we're going to stamp a kid
[02:25:20] with the little n-star from the Naval Academy,
[02:25:22] we're going to send him down to TBS,
[02:25:24] then all of my peers that know
[02:25:26] that I'm at the Naval Academy are like,
[02:25:28] oh, this is JD's guys.
[02:25:31] You know what I mean?
[02:25:31] I don't want JD's name on this guy
[02:25:34] because he's not going to fare well
[02:25:36] when they do the physical fitness aspects.
[02:25:38] And he's like, well, I mean, it's a,
[02:25:40] you know, we don't disclose who's voting.
[02:25:41] I was just like, I mean, I'm being serious.
[02:25:43] Like, does anybody know this kid?
[02:25:44] Like, I know this kid.
[02:25:46] Like he's, we're setting him up for failure.
[02:25:49] And basically, Colonel Emmond says, well, JD, he's legacy.
[02:25:54] And I'm like, okay, well, that's a new one.
[02:25:57] What's legacy?
[02:25:59] Well, his dad was a Marine officer.
[02:26:02] So then I was like, okay, so we're getting flounder.
[02:26:06] Remember an animal house when, you know,
[02:26:08] they took flounder because he was legacy?
[02:26:11] I was like, so we're going to get flounder
[02:26:14] in the Marine Corps because of legacy.
[02:26:16] I thought that was kind of, I mean,
[02:26:18] my dad scouted Major League Baseball.
[02:26:19] Do I get in just because of the legacy?
[02:26:22] You know what I mean?
[02:26:22] Like that shouldn't, that was a little bit disappointing
[02:26:25] to see that I mean-
[02:26:26] Yeah, that should not play a role.
[02:26:27] It should play a role.
[02:26:28] If anything, they should be harder on him.
[02:26:30] You would think.
[02:26:32] Yeah, so, but other than that, you know,
[02:26:35] I got the coolest thing happened to me when I was there.
[02:26:37] I was coming out of football practice.
[02:26:39] It was a class of 2000, year of 2005.
[02:26:43] And a couple of the football players are like,
[02:26:45] hey, they were like, Gunny,
[02:26:46] hey man, you're going to graduate with us.
[02:26:49] I said, what do you mean I'm not going to graduate?
[02:26:51] In like physical fitness, you know what I mean?
[02:26:53] Like they're giving me a PE award and stuff.
[02:26:55] He's like, nope, we voted you to be our honorary graduate
[02:26:58] and graduate with the class of 2005.
[02:27:00] And it's voted by the midshipman, which was like,
[02:27:05] that's the coolest thing I've ever-
[02:27:08] What kind of people do they normally vote for that?
[02:27:10] Not Gunnies.
[02:27:11] You know what I mean?
[02:27:13] Like I did a little bit of like,
[02:27:14] it's normally like some professor or some other officer.
[02:27:18] You know what I mean?
[02:27:20] Kind of of a thing.
[02:27:22] So your class of 2005.
[02:27:23] Class of 2005.
[02:27:25] Love him.
[02:27:26] Yeah.
[02:27:27] I just went to a Marine Corps ball
[02:27:29] with Lieutenant Colonel Adam Horne.
[02:27:31] He's got a 53 squadron down at Cherry Point.
[02:27:33] And when he became the squadron CEO, he called me
[02:27:37] and he's like, hey, JD, I want you to be
[02:27:39] the guest speaker at our ball.
[02:27:41] I'm like, you know what I mean?
[02:27:42] He goes, I'm finally in charge
[02:27:43] and I get to pick the guy coming.
[02:27:45] And I was like, dude, I was never like in the air wing.
[02:27:48] Don't give two shits.
[02:27:49] You're coming.
[02:27:50] He goes, cause you know, and when I was down there
[02:27:52] with him, I mean, it came for, he's like,
[02:27:53] I joined the Marines because of this guy.
[02:27:56] You know, and it was great for one,
[02:27:58] for the enlisted Marines that were in his squadron
[02:28:01] to see an enlisted Marine having a relationship
[02:28:04] with their CEO that like, that we could be friends, man.
[02:28:07] Like we're on the same team.
[02:28:08] Like, you know, it's a great organization
[02:28:12] and great to be a part of.
[02:28:14] And then after that, I got accepted into the alumni
[02:28:18] with the Naval Academy.
[02:28:19] They allowed me in the alumni.
[02:28:21] So I'm an alumnus with the Quantico chapter.
[02:28:25] Yeah, which is-
[02:28:26] You like a ring knocker.
[02:28:28] Did you get a ring?
[02:28:29] No, I didn't.
[02:28:30] Well, I got three of them.
[02:28:31] I got three bowl rings with the football team.
[02:28:34] Yeah, I did that.
[02:28:36] I'm really not a ring guy.
[02:28:38] I had thought about it.
[02:28:39] You know, some of the folks at the academy were like,
[02:28:41] yeah, man, we gotta get gunny a ring.
[02:28:44] You know what I mean?
[02:28:46] But I tell you what, that experience
[02:28:49] at the Naval Academy, I mean, was phenomenal.
[02:28:53] I can't say enough.
[02:28:54] I mean, every organization has problems.
[02:28:58] But for what those midshipmen do and for what they give,
[02:29:02] you know, they're getting a four year education
[02:29:04] and the service that they give back
[02:29:06] and some of the shit they gotta put up with up there.
[02:29:09] Hands are good to say.
[02:29:10] They make them pay for that for the education out there.
[02:29:12] Yeah, they're paying for it.
[02:29:14] But they're like, I mean, they are quality Americans.
[02:29:18] And that's all the service academies, I would say.
[02:29:21] I mean, they're just a great group of individuals.
[02:29:24] And I mean, I had a complete ball at the academy.
[02:29:27] Yeah, no, it's it.
[02:29:29] I've gone to West Point and talked to them.
[02:29:31] I've gone to the Air Force Academy and talked to them.
[02:29:33] It's just, yeah, very cool, very cool thing to look at.
[02:29:37] What happened with the special mission unit
[02:29:39] you were gonna select for?
[02:29:41] Well, that in 2003, so they have what they call,
[02:29:47] it's a leather neck program where they take the midshipmen
[02:29:51] that want to select Marine Corps.
[02:29:54] Their junior year, they take them to Quantico.
[02:29:56] Because, give them a little taste.
[02:29:58] Yeah, because they're the only, like the Naval Academy
[02:30:01] doesn't have to go to OCS, which call it what you see,
[02:30:06] but that is a little bit of contention.
[02:30:10] I mean, OCS, I think they say,
[02:30:14] oh, well, we went to Plebe Summer.
[02:30:15] Well, guess what?
[02:30:16] Plebe Summer is not Marine Corps Officer Candidate School.
[02:30:20] Yeah, as you know, it's not even Naval Officer Candidate
[02:30:23] School.
[02:30:23] I don't know, I mean, I don't know.
[02:30:25] Yeah.
[02:30:26] I don't know.
[02:30:27] You said I know, I don't know.
[02:30:28] I know that Marine Corps OCS, or sorry, Navy OCS
[02:30:31] was cool and good indoctrination for me.
[02:30:34] I don't know how it compares to Plebe Summer or whatever.
[02:30:36] I don't know.
[02:30:37] But I'll take your word for it if you say
[02:30:39] it's not quite the same thing.
[02:30:40] Yeah, it's...
[02:30:42] I can tell you, I'd rather go through OCS
[02:30:43] than four years in the Naval Academy
[02:30:45] as far as just like grind.
[02:30:47] Yeah, any day of the week.
[02:30:50] So like the Marine OCS, so it's just like with anything else.
[02:30:54] They're gonna show up at TBS and,
[02:30:56] oh, I had to go through OCS and you guys didn't
[02:30:59] have to go through OCS.
[02:31:01] There was a lot of midshipmen that wanted to go through OCS
[02:31:05] because they had heard, you know what I mean?
[02:31:06] And I was just like, look guys, you know what I mean?
[02:31:08] So you don't go through OCS.
[02:31:10] What the shit?
[02:31:11] Yeah, you know what I mean?
[02:31:12] You've had four years at the Academy.
[02:31:13] Some of the folks that do go to OCS,
[02:31:15] they went to a regular college.
[02:31:16] They didn't have to put up with a lot of the crap
[02:31:18] that you guys are having to put up with
[02:31:20] while you're here.
[02:31:22] You know, you had to do summer cruises.
[02:31:23] You're competing for the ability to be a Marine officer,
[02:31:27] which is pretty cool.
[02:31:28] So we take them down to TBS
[02:31:30] and they call it Leatherneck.
[02:31:31] We call it purging the squid.
[02:31:34] Just because, you know, I mean,
[02:31:35] the Naval Academy is set up
[02:31:36] as a surface warfare officer school.
[02:31:38] I mean, that's what it is.
[02:31:39] You're making surface warfare officers.
[02:31:42] And there's no Marines in the brochure.
[02:31:44] So we take them down there and we put them through
[02:31:47] a little bit of the land navigation,
[02:31:49] a little bit of the field skills stuff,
[02:31:51] a little bit of the fire team and squad patrolling
[02:31:54] kind of thing.
[02:31:54] And then they've got Marine officers
[02:31:57] and they've got second lieutenants
[02:31:58] that just graduated TBS that work with the midshipmen.
[02:32:02] And they do evaluations on some of these kids
[02:32:05] to see how well they play with others.
[02:32:08] You know what I mean?
[02:32:08] How serious they are.
[02:32:09] How long is Leatherneck program?
[02:32:11] Leatherneck is, man, that's a good question.
[02:32:13] I might be like four to six weeks.
[02:32:17] It's really not that long.
[02:32:19] But neither is OCS.
[02:32:23] So they come down and they run through
[02:32:25] the Leatherneck program.
[02:32:27] And I got sent down to Quantico.
[02:32:34] At first there was a lot of content.
[02:32:35] Because people were like, oh, you got to do Pleep Summer.
[02:32:37] Everybody comes here, you got to do Pleep Summer.
[02:32:39] And I was like, well, General Allen said
[02:32:41] I didn't have to do Pleep Summer.
[02:32:42] And I'm going down to Quantico.
[02:32:43] What, just go watch Pleep Summer basically?
[02:32:45] Or monitor it?
[02:32:46] Yeah, like monitor at work.
[02:32:47] It is a senior enlisted.
[02:32:48] You know what I mean?
[02:32:49] It's kind of like indoctrination
[02:32:51] of being a senior enlisted.
[02:32:54] There was some cool guys that were up there at the academy.
[02:32:56] But I really wasn't into the whole chief's mess
[02:33:00] kind of thing.
[02:33:01] Like I didn't want to go downtown inapolis
[02:33:03] and do a pub crawl and that kind of stuff.
[02:33:08] So I didn't mix well with some of the other.
[02:33:11] I got along with a lot of the folks fine.
[02:33:12] I just, I didn't mix as well with a lot of the others.
[02:33:16] Some of them had that us versus them mentality.
[02:33:19] Us.
[02:33:20] Like us, the Covenant staff versus the midshipment.
[02:33:24] Let's sit around and see how much we can like make
[02:33:26] is miserable.
[02:33:27] Like dude, these kids got it miserable enough, man.
[02:33:30] And they're here.
[02:33:31] And just because they're coming to the academy.
[02:33:33] And yeah, it's a good gig.
[02:33:35] I mean, they get a lot of cool stuff at the academy.
[02:33:38] You know, they got like a silver spoon coming out
[02:33:41] of every orifice of their body.
[02:33:43] I mean, you know, who else gets to go on like summer
[02:33:45] camping trips and you get to go with like an air wing unit.
[02:33:48] You get to fly over.
[02:33:49] I mean, they do some cool stuff at the academy.
[02:33:52] And I think it's just jealousy of, you know,
[02:33:54] there's a lot of chiefs, gunnies, or, you know,
[02:33:57] they didn't get that opportunity and they just want to stick it
[02:34:00] to the midshipment as much as they can.
[02:34:02] And, you know, and like, like what they call like fry in them.
[02:34:06] Like basically like a NJP, but not NJP.
[02:34:10] They call it a fry.
[02:34:11] Well, all that's going to do to that kid.
[02:34:13] I mean, so the kid did something stupid.
[02:34:14] I mean, they're kids.
[02:34:16] That's going to hurt their order of merit.
[02:34:19] You know what I mean?
[02:34:19] Like unless they're doing something like grievous, you know what
[02:34:22] I mean?
[02:34:22] Like, like, come on, man.
[02:34:24] Like, you know, the kid was, you know, he's a kid.
[02:34:27] A lot of times I think some of the folks forget that that,
[02:34:30] you know, they didn't want to see JD when he was 18 and 19.
[02:34:35] And so, you know, those kind of folks, those us versus them
[02:34:39] mentality of, of with the midshipment.
[02:34:42] And I tell you what, the midshipment, they made my experience
[02:34:46] at the academy enjoyable.
[02:34:48] If it wasn't for them, it wouldn't have been as fun.
[02:34:52] Like I had a ball.
[02:34:53] So I ended up down at Leatherneck for the summer and they were
[02:34:56] going out to do simulations and, you know, CQB stuff, you know,
[02:34:59] coming in doing mouth at the mouth facility there.
[02:35:02] And, you know, a couple of the guys, the XO that was in charge,
[02:35:07] the major that was down there, his callsign was Pedro.
[02:35:10] He was a pilot, great guy, major Brown.
[02:35:14] And he's like, hey, why don't you come out, man, and play
[02:35:16] simulations with the midshipment while they're kind of taking
[02:35:19] them through the mouth.
[02:35:19] So I was like, yeah, I'm there.
[02:35:21] Like I love doing simulations in mouth.
[02:35:24] I mean, it's fun.
[02:35:25] You know what I mean?
[02:35:25] Yeah.
[02:35:26] And so we're up there and I ended up getting up in the third
[02:35:30] story and one of the rafters in one of the buildings and I'm
[02:35:34] making my way through the rafters, having a ball,
[02:35:38] shooting midshipment.
[02:35:39] Sniper.
[02:35:40] Yeah.
[02:35:40] I mean, just, and I'm slick.
[02:35:42] So I got no helmet on.
[02:35:44] Yeah, I got nothing.
[02:35:45] I'm just, I'm having a ball.
[02:35:46] It's a great day.
[02:35:49] And then beams break.
[02:35:52] I came out of the third story, fell three stories,
[02:35:55] and just hit like a second.
[02:35:59] You mean the beams break of the rafters that you're in?
[02:36:02] Yeah.
[02:36:03] You know how like the rafters are, when you go back and look
[02:36:06] at the rafters, they were, you know, it's government.
[02:36:08] They were just put in with like long stables.
[02:36:11] So the rafters weren't, but necessarily like for me to get,
[02:36:15] they were kind of like, how did they even get in the rafters?
[02:36:19] Because like when you went to the third story,
[02:36:20] there was just like a cutout.
[02:36:23] Like, you know, you got like a fake ceiling.
[02:36:25] Like a fake ceiling with the little cutout,
[02:36:27] like you have in some people's garages, you know what I mean?
[02:36:30] And you can push up and put a ladder in and put storage.
[02:36:32] So I just ran and hit the wall, jumped up, grabbed,
[02:36:35] pulled myself up and got up into the rafters.
[02:36:37] You know what I mean?
[02:36:38] So yeah, I got up there.
[02:36:40] And then once I was up in there, I was coming out
[02:36:42] and turkey peaking, trying to figure out where the midshipmen
[02:36:44] were moving around in the town and put my hand down.
[02:36:46] Boom, God rafters came out and I came down three stories.
[02:36:50] How come you went down three stories and not just falling from?
[02:36:54] Because you know how like the mount has like a building that
[02:36:56] looks like it's blown off?
[02:36:58] Yeah.
[02:36:59] Yeah.
[02:36:59] So there was nothing there.
[02:37:01] Oh, OK.
[02:37:01] So I'm out.
[02:37:05] And yeah, hit went down the hit with the left shoulder
[02:37:10] and then just down the left side of the body.
[02:37:12] So just and the bad thing was I didn't knock myself out.
[02:37:17] So I mean, you know, like when you go see the doc and they're
[02:37:20] like, so on a pain scale of one to 10, like where I was like,
[02:37:23] dude, yeah, this is a 10.
[02:37:25] Like, yes, it hurt.
[02:37:28] And they medivac me out and took me in and I shattered my left
[02:37:33] shoulder, broke a couple of ribs on the left side,
[02:37:37] broke my pelvis in three spots and the left ankle.
[02:37:43] And yeah, it was going from a hundred mile an hour to zero
[02:37:48] and in an instant.
[02:37:51] And it ended up in a wheelchair, which was that.
[02:37:57] That put a lot of stuff.
[02:37:58] Like I didn't like being in a wheelchair like, man, that.
[02:38:03] That was terrible.
[02:38:04] I mean, I was, I was coming on glued.
[02:38:09] Yeah, it was just, it was a bad, a bad time.
[02:38:12] You know, I didn't want to hear the whole, oh, everything
[02:38:14] happens for a reason kind of thing.
[02:38:15] Like that wasn't flying with me at the time.
[02:38:20] Just because I thought that, you know, something that I was
[02:38:24] hoping to do that fall was now gone.
[02:38:29] And then, you know, the Navy docs that are taking care of me,
[02:38:31] you know, they were, they were kind of great guys,
[02:38:33] but one of the Navy doctors, commander, you know, he was like,
[02:38:39] yeah, I don't, I don't know if you, you know, you're running
[02:38:42] and that kind of thing, that that's going to be happening.
[02:38:46] And I didn't like that of telling me that that's not going
[02:38:51] to happen.
[02:38:51] So I went in and at Walter Reed, they redid my shoulder the
[02:38:55] first time and I had to get like a bone graph and stuff put
[02:38:58] in and, and some screws.
[02:39:01] So I get that done at Walter Reed, which that was back,
[02:39:03] then when it was like a dungeon, you know, when, before it hit
[02:39:06] the news of how stuff went down, I come out of there and this
[02:39:12] happened in the summer of 2003 and January of 2004.
[02:39:18] I signed up and went with the Navy team to run the Disney
[02:39:21] marathon because I was like, yeah, I'm, I'm running.
[02:39:26] I had already been running being at the Naval Academy with
[02:39:31] their athletic department and the trainers and stuff that
[02:39:34] they had, man, they had me like Aqua jogging and resistance
[02:39:39] stuff, you know what I mean?
[02:39:40] And, and the elliptical and, and there was some, you know,
[02:39:43] some of the guys would come in because like Aqua jogging is
[02:39:46] boring as shit.
[02:39:47] You know what I mean?
[02:39:47] Like it's boring, but I'd have guys come in and get in the
[02:39:50] pool with me because I'm just trying to get back.
[02:39:53] I'm still focused like, hey, I still got a shot.
[02:39:56] You know what I mean?
[02:39:56] I can get better.
[02:39:59] So, you know, that happened in June, the summer and January.
[02:40:03] I went down and I ran a 319 Disney, not my best time, but
[02:40:09] I was, I was pretty stoked with a 319 and I came back with
[02:40:13] that big stupid Disney medal that they give you.
[02:40:16] I threw it on the commander's desk and I was like, there's
[02:40:19] your fucking PhD.
[02:40:21] Don't tell me I can't run.
[02:40:23] And of course that's going against doctors or orders kind
[02:40:26] of a thing. They got me a new doc, the new doc that I got.
[02:40:31] He was great.
[02:40:32] He was like, yeah, push your body.
[02:40:34] You know, the human body is an amazing machine.
[02:40:37] You can, you know, get yourself back.
[02:40:38] You get yourself fit.
[02:40:40] So I started next back in the pool swimming.
[02:40:43] I was over there.
[02:40:44] You know, the men's swim team was phenomenal.
[02:40:47] Navy, they got a really good swim program there and the
[02:40:49] coach was great.
[02:40:50] So I used to like to go in and swim with the team and I was
[02:40:53] in there swimming.
[02:40:53] I got out of the shower one day and I was, as I was like
[02:40:56] showering on my shoulder, like something was coming out the
[02:40:59] back of my shoulder.
[02:41:00] Well, so I go over to the football locker.
[02:41:02] They put the X right on.
[02:41:03] I got screws coming out back to the hospital.
[02:41:06] You know what I mean?
[02:41:07] My body was refusing some of the screws coming in.
[02:41:11] I went through rehab with that for the second shoulder
[02:41:16] operation and General Allen, he was kind of my sponsor.
[02:41:21] He had been moved on.
[02:41:22] He was up at the Pentagon. He's a one star up to Pentagon.
[02:41:25] And finally, you know, John Allen called me up to the
[02:41:27] Pentagon and he's like, because they put me up on a
[02:41:30] Navy board, Med.
[02:41:32] And I went up and, you know, John was like, where, where do
[02:41:37] you want to go?
[02:41:39] Because you're not, you're done.
[02:41:41] Like you're not, they were not going to pass you on any kind
[02:41:44] of jump physical, nothing, you know, make map.
[02:41:48] You know, even the shoulder had gotten bad enough to where
[02:41:51] they were like, dude, you keep monkeying around like you're
[02:41:53] going to lose mobility.
[02:41:56] So that kind of got the realism in there.
[02:42:00] And, you know, with him, I was hanging out at the academy
[02:42:03] and the next thing, you know, I got a call from the monitor.
[02:42:09] Medi Knox called me and I was actually at a bowl game in
[02:42:11] San Diego here with the Navy football and he called me and
[02:42:14] he's like, hey, JD, we'd like you to come back down to
[02:42:16] Quantico and, you know, oversee the schools because they had
[02:42:20] Sniper School, HRP, high rest personnel.
[02:42:23] It's basically pistol shooting and Savina Tire, small arms
[02:42:28] weapon instructor course in preacher school.
[02:42:31] So they asked me if I'd come back down and I was literally
[02:42:33] sitting right downtown San Diego and I'm like, dude, I'm in a
[02:42:36] bowl game with Navy football right now.
[02:42:39] You want me to come back?
[02:42:41] I don't want to come back.
[02:42:43] So I was like, hey, I'll call you when I get done.
[02:42:45] Out here, I came back and Medi Knox gave me my sergeant.
[02:42:50] He promoted me, gave me a pin up and pinned me on February
[02:42:54] 1st and I went back down to Quantico and gave him a couple
[02:42:58] more years back down at the schoolhouse as a mass sergeant
[02:43:02] and then left at 21.
[02:43:06] And I think it was good for me to be down there.
[02:43:11] The colonel that I was working for is Mike Mulligan's gray guy
[02:43:15] and Mike, you know, trying to get me ready for transition.
[02:43:19] Like, I didn't know this was not the plan.
[02:43:24] Yeah, I wanted to stay at camp as long as possible until I get
[02:43:28] like 30 years and then retire or make all the way to E-9
[02:43:33] because I was at E-8.
[02:43:34] And yeah, it wasn't a plan.
[02:43:37] So I really, I didn't know what I was going to do.
[02:43:43] And probably the biggest aspect of my wife, Tracy,
[02:43:51] at times she's like, you can do stuff.
[02:43:54] I mean, it's one thing she'll give me.
[02:43:55] She's like, you'll work.
[02:43:57] You're going to show up.
[02:43:59] You're going to work.
[02:44:00] And one of the guys that had taught me back in the day
[02:44:03] to cast my net widely, Eric Carlson, he called me
[02:44:07] and was like, hey, man, do you want
[02:44:08] to do some contract work with infantry weapons,
[02:44:12] special weapons, sniper rifle, stuff like that,
[02:44:15] you know, working for L3 communications.
[02:44:18] So he called me and I was like, yeah, do I have to like,
[02:44:20] you know, what do I have to do?
[02:44:21] He goes, well, you know, we got to have like a panel interview
[02:44:23] kind of thing.
[02:44:24] And so I go out to see Eric and everybody that's on the panel.
[02:44:28] I served with all of them in the Marine Corps.
[02:44:29] It was like a going home kind of thing.
[02:44:31] It was like, all these dudes are there.
[02:44:33] And it's just, this is preliminary.
[02:44:35] And so Eric, you know, brought me in and, I mean,
[02:44:41] he took care of me, gave me a job.
[02:44:44] Because again, I didn't really know what I was going to do.
[02:44:49] So how long did you do that contracting job for?
[02:44:51] A couple years.
[02:44:52] And then what, how did you end up forming OMNA,
[02:44:56] which is your, OMNA International,
[02:44:59] which is your leadership company?
[02:45:02] Is that the right thing to call it?
[02:45:04] Yeah, yeah, well, it's experiential.
[02:45:08] Right, experiential learning.
[02:45:09] Experiential learning.
[02:45:11] And so it was, it was at L3.
[02:45:15] And, you know, in the Marine Corps, you know,
[02:45:20] I had the opportunity because of some of the officers
[02:45:22] that I served with that let me tag along and go on some staff
[02:45:25] rides historically, which was like super, I mean, you know,
[02:45:29] going to over and study in Okinawa, the battle over there
[02:45:32] and seeing the reverse slope defense of the Japanese,
[02:45:35] like what we kind of went through, the Philippines,
[02:45:37] you know, the Korea, you know what I mean?
[02:45:39] So just reading and then getting to go to these places
[02:45:42] and actually stand on the exact spot where,
[02:45:46] where folks have been.
[02:45:47] And like I said, I had read quite a bit.
[02:45:50] You know, I remember reading, you know, Hackworth
[02:45:53] back in the day, you know, those kind of guys
[02:45:55] were just very influential on me in leadership.
[02:46:00] And it was just, you know, it was kind of like a,
[02:46:03] an experience to where, you know, it's not in a classroom.
[02:46:08] It's not you're actually on the field.
[02:46:10] It's very hands-on kind of learning
[02:46:15] and learning how to lead.
[02:46:17] And so I started with Omna of,
[02:46:23] it started to realize that we could do staff rides
[02:46:28] outside of the Marine Corps.
[02:46:34] Like there's a, there's, there's other organizations
[02:46:37] that are out there, you know, like at the Naval Academy,
[02:46:41] we used to take the kids to Antietam.
[02:46:43] You know what I mean?
[02:46:44] They could do it as a weekend trip.
[02:46:45] We could take them to Antietam.
[02:46:46] You know, John Allen, he was a big history guy,
[02:46:48] Marine officer, of course, love staff rides.
[02:46:51] You know, Gettysburg is another big one.
[02:46:54] Corporal Seamus Garry used to live up in Gettysburg up there.
[02:46:57] We called it Marine Barracks, Gettysburg.
[02:47:00] You know what I mean?
[02:47:01] So there was, you know, going to Gettysburg,
[02:47:03] the experiential stuff of overseas, you know,
[02:47:05] the Marine Corps was always big on this
[02:47:07] with doing staff rides.
[02:47:12] And they were a lot of fun.
[02:47:14] So again, this same guy, Eric Carlson had been dealing
[02:47:18] with the wildland firefighters,
[02:47:22] the guys, hotshots, smoke jumpers, engine crew,
[02:47:25] kind of guys.
[02:47:26] And I guess they had had a couple of fatality fires.
[02:47:29] So they did a tri-data study and they earmarked
[02:47:33] and went around and looked at different organizations
[02:47:36] of how they teach leadership.
[02:47:38] And they ended up at Marine Corps University
[02:47:41] and Eric Carlson was the operations officer.
[02:47:45] And Eric, and they called over and Craig Huddleston,
[02:47:49] who's with Omna as well.
[02:47:51] Craig is another one of my great mentors.
[02:47:53] Craig was over at Command and Staff.
[02:47:58] And they were like, hey, do you mind if some firefighter guys
[02:48:00] come tag along, go to Gettysburg?
[02:48:02] Sure, rang them along.
[02:48:04] So they went up to Gettysburg.
[02:48:05] And when they saw how the Marine Corps just took a pile
[02:48:09] of dirt of what we call a terrain model,
[02:48:11] they were like, wow, this is pretty cheap.
[02:48:13] We've got a lot of dirt.
[02:48:15] And there were so many similarities between
[02:48:18] wildland firefighting and the Marine Corps.
[02:48:21] You know, a hotshot is an infantry platoon.
[02:48:24] You know, an engine is like artillery.
[02:48:26] They've got aviation, they've got logistics,
[02:48:28] they've got, you know, incident commanders
[02:48:30] and they were putting people in harm's way.
[02:48:33] They're making plans, they're using terrain models
[02:48:35] and they're sending folks out
[02:48:36] just like on a military operation.
[02:48:39] So they really bought into this staff ride concept
[02:48:44] as well as the Naval Academy.
[02:48:47] You know, so the Naval Academy with Joe Thomas
[02:48:51] who's still up there with the leadership in ethics,
[02:48:53] Gray Guy, retired Marine Lieutenant Colonel, Pennsylvania guy,
[02:48:57] Joe and them, I mean, we've taken the Naval Academy
[02:48:59] up to Gettysburg because the team captains
[02:49:03] with the football and all the sports that were up there,
[02:49:07] were like, hey, we got a guy that can take the team captains
[02:49:11] and take them to Gettysburg.
[02:49:13] So, you know, through NAAA,
[02:49:16] I took the team captains up there
[02:49:18] because you know, I knew a lot of the coaches
[02:49:19] because obviously I spent a lot of time with their facilities.
[02:49:23] You know what I mean?
[02:49:24] Kind of playing around and I just started,
[02:49:26] like at first it was kind of a,
[02:49:31] kind of something fun to do,
[02:49:34] but I didn't know how to run a business.
[02:49:38] So I basically went online of,
[02:49:40] because you can find everything online
[02:49:42] and like, how do you start a business.com?
[02:49:45] And then, okay, well, you gotta pick a name,
[02:49:50] you gotta get a duns number, you gotta get a 10,
[02:49:52] you gotta get, you know, so there was a lot of reading
[02:49:55] involved because I had no clue,
[02:49:59] like how do you get a business license?
[02:50:01] I mean, it's just amazing, like,
[02:50:04] I became so more educated, you know what I mean,
[02:50:09] of just starting a business and getting QuickBooks.
[02:50:13] Like, how do you do taxes?
[02:50:14] How do you run payroll?
[02:50:16] Like, how do you, you know what I mean?
[02:50:17] Yeah, you wanna learn a lot of stuff,
[02:50:18] start some businesses, start a business,
[02:50:20] start with just one, you're gonna learn a lot.
[02:50:22] Yeah, I've just got one.
[02:50:24] Yeah, I know, yeah.
[02:50:27] But even like, I think the, well,
[02:50:29] I know the first business that I started
[02:50:31] was this gym that we're in today
[02:50:33] and just the amount of learning that you do.
[02:50:36] And then, you know, your next business,
[02:50:37] you already have some of those lessons learning,
[02:50:39] you can apply them and then the next business after that,
[02:50:41] when you can apply some more and yeah,
[02:50:43] but if you're a young person or you just got out of,
[02:50:47] you know, the service, you start a business.
[02:50:50] I don't care if you do, you know,
[02:50:51] you sell, you know, clothes pins or something,
[02:50:54] painted clothes pins.
[02:50:55] If you start a business, just sell painted clothes pins,
[02:50:58] you're gonna learn a ton, you're gonna learn a ton.
[02:51:00] And you might make some money along the way,
[02:51:02] you might lose some money, but you're gonna learn a lot.
[02:51:03] That's for sure.
[02:51:05] And this is how you and I eventually linked up
[02:51:08] because at Escalon Front, we wanted to do
[02:51:11] what we call EF Battlefield
[02:51:12] and we wanted to have, you know,
[02:51:14] an expert that has more knowledge
[02:51:16] about the battles than we do.
[02:51:19] And that's how we linked up for the first time,
[02:51:22] which was awesome.
[02:51:23] Yeah, yeah, so we started out,
[02:51:26] so I've had the company since 2010.
[02:51:30] And Omna stands for one man national asset.
[02:51:35] And I learned from Al Gray
[02:51:39] that before you decide what you're gonna do,
[02:51:42] decide who you're doing it with.
[02:51:45] And, you know, Eric Carlson, the same guy,
[02:51:49] I mean, he's, of course,
[02:51:52] I'm gonna do everything with Eric Carlson.
[02:51:54] I lived three quarters of a mile from Eric Carlson,
[02:51:57] still to this day.
[02:51:58] I run past his house in the morning.
[02:52:00] I mean, he is a huge impact.
[02:52:02] And now Craig Huddleston,
[02:52:06] Craig Huddleston is the most interesting man in the world.
[02:52:08] He went from E1 to E7 to 01 to 06.
[02:52:16] A little over 33.
[02:52:17] He was a drill instructor.
[02:52:19] I mean, he's just like,
[02:52:20] he's like one of those guys that just did everything.
[02:52:23] You know what I mean?
[02:52:24] He did a tour with the British War Commandos over in Europe.
[02:52:27] I mean, he's just the most interesting man in the world.
[02:52:30] And, you know, he's, it's still a downhill ski instructor
[02:52:34] at Angel Fire, New Mexico.
[02:52:35] He's in his 70s.
[02:52:36] I mean, you wouldn't know it.
[02:52:38] The guy is just, he doesn't stop.
[02:52:41] Huge impact on me in my life.
[02:52:44] And then all the other guys that work with Omnit,
[02:52:48] you know, of course, you know, we start out with Marines.
[02:52:52] And then we started expanding to where like in Wildland Fire,
[02:52:55] they were like, can we develop staff rides for Wildland Fire?
[02:52:59] So you got like South Canyon Fatality Fires.
[02:53:03] The Dude Fire down in Arizona,
[02:53:06] you've got what the movie came out with, Only the Brave,
[02:53:10] was about the Yarno Hill Fire.
[02:53:12] We developed that staff ride.
[02:53:13] That's what I was just at last week doing those.
[02:53:16] Because like I said, I mean, it's experiential leadership.
[02:53:20] And it's not necessarily,
[02:53:21] it's armchair quarterbacking the events,
[02:53:23] but you're not there to refight the fire or refight the battle.
[02:53:26] You're there to take a step back
[02:53:28] and look at the leadership decisions that were made.
[02:53:33] And how could we learn from that?
[02:53:35] How can we move forward?
[02:53:38] And then like teaming up with you guys, you know what I mean?
[02:53:41] Like I can remember when I first,
[02:53:43] when like Steve and Jason who I love,
[02:53:46] because they are just class act characters.
[02:53:50] Like when we got done with the first staff ride,
[02:53:54] you know, a few years back,
[02:53:55] and we're sitting in the room and they're like,
[02:53:59] dude, this was so much fun.
[02:54:01] Like the interaction with the participants
[02:54:05] that are there, the people that you get to meet.
[02:54:08] I mean, you remember, I mean, some of the folks,
[02:54:10] I mean, they even came back and did little big horn works.
[02:54:12] You know, and just the experience
[02:54:16] on the leadership aspect of experiencing it that there,
[02:54:20] to me, you just, you can't get it from a classroom.
[02:54:23] You can't get it from a book.
[02:54:25] You know, when you're standing, you know,
[02:54:27] in the Peach Orchard at Gettysburg,
[02:54:30] and the discussions that you're having of,
[02:54:33] I mean, everybody has a dance circles
[02:54:35] in their organization.
[02:54:36] Everybody, it's just for 10,000 years,
[02:54:38] we've been trying to figure out how to deal with people.
[02:54:41] And delivering of a staff ride, it's so memorable,
[02:54:45] like of being there.
[02:54:47] And you know, it's just so,
[02:54:50] we basically developed a business
[02:54:52] around experiential staff rides.
[02:54:56] And, you know, and we do it for, you know, fish and wildlife,
[02:55:01] US Forest Service, FDNY, San Diego Lifeguards,
[02:55:06] I took the San Diego Lifeguards, the Gettysburg,
[02:55:08] which was like super cool.
[02:55:10] Like those are a great bunch of guys.
[02:55:12] And I learned more from them than they probably did for me.
[02:55:15] Like I didn't know they were sworn officers
[02:55:17] and could write tickets, but they don't get a gun.
[02:55:19] Talk about the ability to use your, you know,
[02:55:22] your communication skills.
[02:55:23] You better be pretty good.
[02:55:25] You know what I mean?
[02:55:26] And, you know, bringing them to Gettysburg,
[02:55:27] everybody's like, you know, in Gettysburg,
[02:55:29] like who are these, it's like their lifeguards,
[02:55:31] like from San Diego, like, I mean, the whole Baywatch.
[02:55:34] I mean, the guys are just phenomenal people.
[02:55:38] And then we do a lot, Orange County,
[02:55:39] like I know you've done stuff with Orange County,
[02:55:41] fire authority up the road.
[02:55:43] But then when you meet like the smoke jumpers
[02:55:45] and the hotshots, that's like kind of like these people,
[02:55:48] like if we would have had Discovery Channel,
[02:55:50] like when you and I were kids in the 80s
[02:55:52] and I would have seen like, wait a minute,
[02:55:54] I can get paid money to get a chainsaw,
[02:55:56] which are always fun to operate.
[02:55:59] And you're gonna let me jump out of an aircraft
[02:56:02] in the middle of nowhere and fight fire.
[02:56:04] And I'm gonna get paid.
[02:56:06] Like that's badass.
[02:56:08] And just like with the hotshots,
[02:56:10] I mean, we're gonna put me in a buggy.
[02:56:11] We're gonna ride around with like 20 to 30 other men
[02:56:15] and women that just wanna get after it,
[02:56:18] you know what I mean?
[02:56:18] With a Pulaski, you know what I mean?
[02:56:21] And fight wild land fire.
[02:56:23] I mean, they're just great people.
[02:56:27] They provide a great service to the country.
[02:56:30] But growing up in Virginia, West Virginia,
[02:56:32] we don't have wild land fire like here.
[02:56:35] I mean, like everybody out here,
[02:56:36] you all in Cali know what wild land fire is.
[02:56:39] It's the West Coast thing.
[02:56:40] Yeah, but yeah, that would be such a cool job.
[02:56:45] And they're just great people.
[02:56:47] Yeah, that's a freaking hard job, man.
[02:56:49] You and I were talking earlier today
[02:56:51] and just when you've been in the military
[02:56:53] and you look at a hill
[02:56:56] and you know what it takes to walk up a hill,
[02:56:58] you appreciate hills.
[02:57:00] And those wild land fire guys, man,
[02:57:02] they just actually, I have a guy that guided me
[02:57:04] a couple of hunts and he's a wild land fire guy.
[02:57:07] And I mean, you wanna talk about a dude
[02:57:09] that could hoof out some miles, bro?
[02:57:11] I mean, this dude was just like, okay.
[02:57:14] I mean, with no expression on his face, you know,
[02:57:17] other than like, where are we going next?
[02:57:21] No factor, like no factor.
[02:57:23] This guy's put some miles in, man.
[02:57:24] These are like mountain goats.
[02:57:26] They're like mountain goats.
[02:57:26] Yeah, I mean, and they, with like gas cans
[02:57:29] and they got like chainsaws.
[02:57:32] And they do, I mean, it's a,
[02:57:34] and they're just a great community of people.
[02:57:37] So I had the experience, I do a lot with those folks
[02:57:40] and they've expanded to where now with Omna,
[02:57:42] now we've got former, I got a former hotshots,
[02:57:45] former wild land firefighters.
[02:57:47] They got former forest ranger.
[02:57:49] You know what I mean?
[02:57:50] That she works with us.
[02:57:52] I mean, just the people that I've had the opportunity
[02:57:56] to meet over the past 12 years of doing this.
[02:58:00] I mean, it's just, it's amazing.
[02:58:02] And of course, like I enjoy the hell out of it,
[02:58:04] which makes it even better.
[02:58:06] You know, what I don't have to go to a cubicle.
[02:58:09] And you know what I mean?
[02:58:10] We get the, and you know, it's like my wife's like,
[02:58:12] what are you doing over there?
[02:58:14] I'm working.
[02:58:15] Allegedly.
[02:58:16] No, you're reading a book.
[02:58:17] That's my job.
[02:58:19] I get to read.
[02:58:20] Well, you know, we were lucky enough to link up
[02:58:24] and we bring a lot of corporate people in.
[02:58:28] We bring everyone in, a lot of corporate people,
[02:58:30] a lot of business people in that go through these staff rides
[02:58:33] and pass on these lessons learned.
[02:58:36] And there's so much to learn from these events
[02:58:39] and the leadership and the personalities
[02:58:41] and the people that undergo them.
[02:58:44] And I was talking to you and I always feel
[02:58:49] kind of selfish because I get to hang out with you.
[02:58:51] And I was, and learn from these battlefields
[02:58:55] and from these battles.
[02:58:55] And I thought to myself, hey,
[02:58:57] maybe we should try and extend this knowledge
[02:58:59] to more people.
[02:59:00] So I came up with an idea of doing a series of podcasts
[02:59:05] about the Civil War battles.
[02:59:07] And just so everybody knows, that's what we're doing.
[02:59:11] We're gonna put together a series of podcasts
[02:59:14] about the Civil War, where it's gonna be on this,
[02:59:16] it's gonna be on this podcast feed.
[02:59:18] It's gonna be Jocko podcast, Civil War Excursion.
[02:59:23] Cause it's gonna, you know, there's some people that make,
[02:59:24] I don't really feel like listening to Civil War.
[02:59:27] And if you don't wanna listen to it, that's fine.
[02:59:29] You probably will.
[02:59:30] It's sitting here talking to you.
[02:59:34] It's like trying to, I can't wait.
[02:59:36] I can't wait to pull the string on your back
[02:59:38] where you just start talking about Civil War
[02:59:40] and battles and personalities, man, it's awesome.
[02:59:43] And yeah, you'll be hearing a bunch from JD on this feed.
[02:59:50] Yeah.
[02:59:50] What do we miss?
[02:59:51] We miss anything else?
[02:59:53] No, that's pretty much it.
[02:59:57] I remember when I talked to you like one of the first times
[03:00:00] when your book came out Extreme Ownership,
[03:00:02] and of course I'd read it.
[03:00:04] And I had some of the folks that I deal with
[03:00:06] that that was like a pre-read.
[03:00:10] You know, cause a lot of the people that we deal with,
[03:00:12] we encourage reading lists in any organization.
[03:00:16] Like everybody should read.
[03:00:19] And that was one of the books, Extreme Ownership,
[03:00:22] prior to us going to Little Bighorn.
[03:00:23] So, and when you actually look at it after the fact,
[03:00:27] and being with you and all the guys with Eshalon Front
[03:00:30] and doing it now, when you look at like the battlefield,
[03:00:33] you could be like, well, that definitely did not
[03:00:37] show any Extreme Ownership.
[03:00:38] Oh yeah.
[03:00:39] You know what I mean?
[03:00:40] It's crazy to go out and, you know, I used to tell the platoons
[03:00:43] when I was taking a platoon to Land Warfare
[03:00:45] or urban training, I'd say, look,
[03:00:47] I know the mistakes you're gonna make.
[03:00:48] I already know the mistakes you're gonna make.
[03:00:50] And you're not gonna cover and move.
[03:00:52] You're gonna make things too complicated.
[03:00:54] You're not, you're gonna have,
[03:00:55] trying to do too many things at once.
[03:00:56] You're gonna have centralized command.
[03:00:58] Everything's gonna fall apart.
[03:01:00] If you follow these simple rules, you're gonna do good.
[03:01:03] And it's so crazy to look back at history
[03:01:06] and look back at Gettysburg or Little Bighorn.
[03:01:09] And you can say, oh, no cover and move right here.
[03:01:10] Everything falls apart.
[03:01:11] Oh, they had too complicated.
[03:01:12] Everything falls apart.
[03:01:13] Oh, trying to do too many things at once.
[03:01:15] Everything falls apart.
[03:01:16] Oh, the commander's trying to direct every single person.
[03:01:19] Everything falls apart.
[03:01:20] The same mistakes get made in the Civil War,
[03:01:24] in World War II, Korea, Vietnam, any war, pretty much.
[03:01:29] The same mistakes get made.
[03:01:30] The same leadership makes mistakes get made.
[03:01:33] And what's crazy is that the same leadership mistakes
[03:01:35] get made in any organization, in any organization.
[03:01:39] It's they don't support each other.
[03:01:40] They make things too complicated.
[03:01:42] They don't figure out their priorities.
[03:01:43] They don't focus their efforts.
[03:01:45] And they try and centralize and control everything.
[03:01:48] And all those things are bad.
[03:01:50] And when you come out,
[03:01:52] and we, the next thing we're doing with you,
[03:01:54] let me look at the dates here.
[03:01:55] It's, what do we got?
[03:01:59] Next battlefield is March 21st through the 23rd
[03:02:03] on the hollowed grounds of Gettysburg.
[03:02:06] You know, there is a whole,
[03:02:08] like I said, this was Jason, you know, when Jason was on,
[03:02:10] there's like a spiritual side to this.
[03:02:12] There's a leadership side, sure,
[03:02:14] but you go on to that battlefield
[03:02:16] and you feel the sacrifice that was made.
[03:02:22] And it's very powerful.
[03:02:25] Both at Gettysburg and Little Big Horn,
[03:02:27] and I'm sure we're gonna do a bunch of other battlefields
[03:02:29] in the future.
[03:02:30] But if anybody wants to come,
[03:02:31] to walk the battlefield with us,
[03:02:35] escalonfront.com, check out the next EF battlefield.
[03:02:39] It's March 21st through the 23rd.
[03:02:43] For your company, for Omna, it's theomna.com.
[03:02:49] So you do stuff all over the place.
[03:02:51] You run a bunch of these events.
[03:02:53] Your people run a bunch of these events.
[03:02:55] You're on Instagram, Omna underscore international.
[03:02:58] You're on Facebook, Omna international LLC.
[03:03:02] That's, if people wanna find you,
[03:03:04] that's where they can find you.
[03:03:06] And that's where they can find some of the courses
[03:03:08] that you guys are running, which is awesome.
[03:03:11] What else, Echo, you got anything?
[03:03:12] You got any questions?
[03:03:13] Oh, what year again were you at Navy?
[03:03:16] I was at Navy 2003 and left 2006.
[03:03:20] Oh, damn, because we'd play them a lot.
[03:03:22] I played at Universal Hawaii,
[03:03:23] so that we were in the same conference.
[03:03:26] Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
[03:03:27] That's where I was the head coach at Navy, Ken.
[03:03:30] Neymar, he quarterbacked at Hawaii.
[03:03:33] Did you play in the Naval Academy?
[03:03:35] You played against them?
[03:03:37] I didn't play the game, no.
[03:03:38] But we played that man the team did,
[03:03:40] but I personally did not.
[03:03:41] You were on the bench, kinda?
[03:03:42] I was on the bench, I was red-shirting.
[03:03:44] Oh, sure.
[03:03:45] But yeah, that was a little bit before that time, no.
[03:03:48] 95 to 98.
[03:03:50] Oh, okay, yeah.
[03:03:51] Did you get special treatment
[03:03:52] at University of Hawaii being on the football team?
[03:03:54] Yes, yeah, they do.
[03:03:56] And that makes sense too,
[03:03:58] because a lot of times football brings in a lot of the money.
[03:04:01] So you have that dynamic for sure.
[03:04:04] Yeah, when you look at the football division one,
[03:04:07] to compete, I can remember,
[03:04:09] I had a lot of cool opportunities.
[03:04:11] Like I got to travel with the team.
[03:04:13] So like we go play Notre Dame.
[03:04:16] I mean, that's big school, man.
[03:04:18] That's a big program.
[03:04:19] You know what I mean?
[03:04:20] So I'm over, because I'm a gunny,
[03:04:22] I can just go wherever I want.
[03:04:24] So I go over to their locker room.
[03:04:26] The size of those dudes,
[03:04:28] like compared to the Naval Academy of the Chittester,
[03:04:31] you know what I mean?
[03:04:32] They were tree trunks, man.
[03:04:33] These dudes were,
[03:04:34] I walk back over one of the quarterbacks
[03:04:36] at Navy, Craig Candido.
[03:04:38] I went over to Craig and I was like,
[03:04:40] dude, I'm glad I'm not you today, bro.
[03:04:43] Because you're running triple option football.
[03:04:46] JD's pep talk, I'm glad I'm not you.
[03:04:49] I mean, they should have sent you back to be,
[03:04:52] back to Annapolis after that pep talk.
[03:04:55] I mean, those dudes, I mean, that's,
[03:04:58] and that's where, you know,
[03:04:59] when you're talking about like having these kids there
[03:05:02] compete at that level, like you at Hawaii,
[03:05:04] I mean, it's a different,
[03:05:06] that's just a different level of competition,
[03:05:08] playing those folks, man.
[03:05:09] There's some big, and those guys,
[03:05:12] that's all they do is play football.
[03:05:13] They're not doing double E and, you know,
[03:05:15] worried about height weight requirements
[03:05:17] and service selection.
[03:05:18] They're there to play football and go pro.
[03:05:20] Yeah, though, that's interesting how you talk about
[03:05:23] a guy will be on the O line or the D line,
[03:05:24] then he has to go change his whole body.
[03:05:26] I was like, bro, that's true.
[03:05:28] You can't be six, four, two, 90, over 300 pounds
[03:05:31] and then want to run, you know, all these mountain bats.
[03:05:34] It's not like that.
[03:05:34] You got to become a different human.
[03:05:36] You got to become a different human being.
[03:05:38] Like getting change your DNA is what it boils down to.
[03:05:42] Yeah, that's true.
[03:05:43] I mean, I played a skill position,
[03:05:45] but even like running three miles,
[03:05:49] you're talking about eight miles,
[03:05:50] marathons, all that, bro, I couldn't do that.
[03:05:53] I could sprint pretty fast, but man,
[03:05:55] the long distance is like a different kind of running.
[03:05:58] Yeah, they used to do something called fourth quarters
[03:06:01] and getting ready.
[03:06:03] So it was kind of like they'd show up in the morning
[03:06:05] out on the field and they would have stations.
[03:06:08] Yeah, circuits.
[03:06:09] Like fourth quarter circuit kind of stuff.
[03:06:10] Well, you know, so I go and of course I've got cleats.
[03:06:14] I've got everything, like I've got everything the kids have.
[03:06:16] Like I love going to practice, you know what I mean?
[03:06:19] And so I'm going to go do fourth quarters with the team.
[03:06:22] So first day I go out and I pick skills players to go with.
[03:06:25] Wrong move.
[03:06:27] They're these guys, they're fast twitch muscles, man.
[03:06:29] They're making me look silly.
[03:06:31] You know what I mean?
[03:06:32] And they weigh twice as much as you.
[03:06:33] Oh yeah.
[03:06:34] So the next day I'm going with O-line.
[03:06:39] I went to one of my seal buddies with friends
[03:06:41] with a bunch of San Diego Chargers
[03:06:43] and I went to his wedding and dude,
[03:06:45] these guys are just not, they're like a different species.
[03:06:48] It's like when you look at a Chihuahua versus like a great
[03:06:51] Dane and you think, how do these the same kind of animal?
[03:06:54] I'm standing around looking at these dudes going,
[03:06:56] how are these guys the same kind of animals to me?
[03:06:58] Cause I don't like this at all.
[03:07:00] Yeah.
[03:07:01] Yeah.
[03:07:02] I remember there was like one of the,
[03:07:03] I think it was one of the Chargers here training with Sarge
[03:07:06] and he was just teaching them some little bit of Jiu-Jitsu stuff.
[03:07:09] And I looked at him and he was like,
[03:07:10] I forget, I might've been a fullback or something.
[03:07:13] And I remember looking at him and I said,
[03:07:14] man, I forget, I forgot how big football players are.
[03:07:17] And even thinking back, I know the numbers.
[03:07:19] Like I know like my friend Jeff, he was,
[03:07:21] he actually ended up playing for the 49ers.
[03:07:23] Jeff Ulberg, he was six one, two, 55 and he ran a four, five.
[03:07:28] And I remember at the time I'm thinking like,
[03:07:30] oh man, he's pretty fast for like being a big, you know, guy,
[03:07:33] but he's not big compared to like the D line
[03:07:35] or the O line or whatever.
[03:07:36] But man, me thinking about that right now,
[03:07:39] but I'm not used to that kind of size anymore.
[03:07:41] Usually it's just normal.
[03:07:42] And running a four, five at 255, like when that guy hits you,
[03:07:46] oh yeah.
[03:07:47] That's not, that's not cool.
[03:07:49] Bro, you're going down.
[03:07:51] Like you're going down.
[03:07:52] You're going down.
[03:07:53] That's just pure power.
[03:07:55] Oh yeah.
[03:07:56] Yeah, these big Simone guys too.
[03:07:57] Six, five, three, 30, three, 40.
[03:08:01] And still fast.
[03:08:02] The giant.
[03:08:03] Oh yeah.
[03:08:04] Yeah.
[03:08:05] These pulling guards that come there just like this big mass
[03:08:07] of a human.
[03:08:08] Oh man.
[03:08:09] Yeah, it's, I forget how big they are.
[03:08:11] Yeah, that's why we invented gun power.
[03:08:14] Oh yeah.
[03:08:15] Oh yeah.
[03:08:16] Of course.
[03:08:19] Anything else, anything else JD?
[03:08:22] We're going to get a big dose of you on the podcast here.
[03:08:27] Anything else from you?
[03:08:30] Let's talk about how to support this podcast.
[03:08:34] How to support America, right?
[03:08:36] And of course, want to support ourselves.
[03:08:38] Speaking of being jacked.
[03:08:42] Good tool for being jacked, creatine.
[03:08:44] Yes.
[03:08:45] Creatine is out.
[03:08:45] Creatine is out.
[03:08:46] We just came out with creatine.
[03:08:47] That's good.
[03:08:48] How long were you thinking about doing that?
[03:08:51] Cause I remember the idea came up a long time ago.
[03:08:53] Yeah, yeah.
[03:08:54] Just the idea.
[03:08:55] It was one of those things where we had to be able to do it
[03:08:58] at a scale where it made sense.
[03:09:00] Because, because we, I don't just want to be like,
[03:09:03] oh, we'll just throw our name in the hat
[03:09:05] with everybody else.
[03:09:06] I want to make it good and all that stuff.
[03:09:08] But yeah, it's been, it's been a,
[03:09:10] it's probably been a few years that we were,
[03:09:12] had that in the, in the queue.
[03:09:15] It makes sense.
[03:09:15] Cause it is one of those supplements
[03:09:17] that's like reliably good.
[03:09:19] Kind of across the board, you know?
[03:09:21] All right. It's crazy.
[03:09:22] But on that little video you made when you're like,
[03:09:25] yeah, in the nineties and it's weird.
[03:09:26] That's when I really heard about it the most.
[03:09:28] Yeah. What's cool is that that's,
[03:09:30] I remember when it came out.
[03:09:33] It came out and I remember it.
[03:09:36] Everyone's like, dude, creatine, creatine, creatine.
[03:09:38] And what I got on creatine, I was on deployment
[03:09:40] on the USS Cleveland, the steaming cleave.
[03:09:45] And I brought cruise boxes with this protein powder
[03:09:48] that had creatine in it.
[03:09:50] And this is the one that I talk about where it's vanilla.
[03:09:52] I don't even like vanilla to this day
[03:09:53] cause I drank vanilla protein shakes
[03:09:55] for six straight months.
[03:09:57] And I would hold my nose like it was bad tequila
[03:10:00] and just like, got it down.
[03:10:02] You don't have to do that anymore.
[03:10:03] You can get Johncofuel.com, get your creatine, get jacked.
[03:10:08] The other cool thing is they've done so much research on it now.
[03:10:10] It like helps, it just doesn't only help you get stronger.
[03:10:14] Helps your athletic performance.
[03:10:15] Helps your cognitive function.
[03:10:17] Like it's just straight good for you.
[03:10:20] So if you want to get some of that,
[03:10:22] Johncofuel.com.
[03:10:23] And that's not to mention resistance training,
[03:10:25] all the studies that they've been putting into that.
[03:10:27] All the benefits of resistance training.
[03:10:29] So now you got the creatine supporting the resistance
[03:10:31] training, supporting all the other functions of your body.
[03:10:33] Yeah, resistance training, Jack.
[03:10:35] Resistance training, no offense JD.
[03:10:36] Because I know you're a runner.
[03:10:38] Do you jack steel at all?
[03:10:39] No, I just, calisthenics?
[03:10:41] Yeah, I do pull ups.
[03:10:42] I got a pull up bar.
[03:10:44] Yeah, pull ups, calisthenics.
[03:10:45] That's resistance.
[03:10:46] That's just old school Marine Corps.
[03:10:47] Yeah, no jacking of steel.
[03:10:49] Jacking of steel.
[03:10:50] You jacked your shoulder.
[03:10:51] No, you're not jacking steel.
[03:10:54] What else?
[03:10:56] Discipline go, right?
[03:10:57] Energy drink, redefined, healthy, all good stuff,
[03:11:00] no bad stuff.
[03:11:01] Can you imagine just having something that's got no downside?
[03:11:04] How legit is that?
[03:11:06] It's very legit.
[03:11:07] That's the legit here.
[03:11:08] No downside, there's no price to pay.
[03:11:10] Oh, it costs three bucks or whatever.
[03:11:13] Oh yeah, like everything else.
[03:11:14] There's no price to pay physically, health wise.
[03:11:17] Same thing with a ready to drink milk.
[03:11:18] Did you get a shipment yet?
[03:11:20] Yes, I did.
[03:11:20] Ha ha ha.
[03:11:22] It's a game changer.
[03:11:22] My kids are stealing them.
[03:11:24] It's gonna be gone.
[03:11:25] It's gonna be gone.
[03:11:26] There's no way you can have ready to drink milk
[03:11:27] in the house with children.
[03:11:28] I had to make a rule, straight up rule.
[03:11:30] Like you're not allowed to have these kind of things.
[03:11:32] The off limits.
[03:11:33] Yeah, off limits.
[03:11:34] Those are just for you.
[03:11:34] Oh yeah.
[03:11:35] You can't drink it all, straight up.
[03:11:37] That's why I made the rule.
[03:11:39] Well, we're making as much as we can.
[03:11:41] We got it on the web.
[03:11:43] So yeah, the ready to drink milk, it's freaking awesome.
[03:11:46] It's a game, it's kind of a game changer.
[03:11:48] It is kind of a game changer.
[03:11:50] You know why I think it's a game changer?
[03:11:51] Because man, there's no reason to eat anything else.
[03:11:55] Like, you know maybe you're walking by,
[03:11:57] no, you know what I'm saying?
[03:11:58] Like you're walking by the fridge and you're like,
[03:12:00] well what can I have right now?
[03:12:02] And you're kind of, everything's an effort
[03:12:04] and it's got the downside, you know?
[03:12:06] With a mulk, ready to drink.
[03:12:08] There's no, there's zero, once again, no downside.
[03:12:10] You don't have to make it.
[03:12:12] You just have to twist the freaking cap off, bro.
[03:12:14] You're in.
[03:12:15] You're correct about that.
[03:12:17] So get yourself some ready to drink milk.
[03:12:19] Get yourself some creatine.
[03:12:21] Go, discipline, go.
[03:12:23] Jockofuel.com at Wawa, you're in Virginia.
[03:12:26] You're going into Wawa.
[03:12:27] Just get you cleaning the shelves out.
[03:12:29] They're cleaned out like all the time.
[03:12:31] Right on.
[03:12:32] Yeah, at Wawa.
[03:12:33] We'll send more.
[03:12:35] So if you're East Coast, Wawa, you can get stuff
[03:12:37] at the Vitamin Shop, military commissaries.
[03:12:39] We're working the exchange.
[03:12:41] We should be in the exchanges soon.
[03:12:43] Hannaford's, Dash Store's, Wakeford and Shoprite, Circle K.
[03:12:46] H-E-B, Tejas.
[03:12:49] You know we got you.
[03:12:51] Murphy's down in the Southeast.
[03:12:52] Meyer in the Midwest.
[03:12:54] So go get yourself some jockofuel.
[03:12:55] Get, no downside.
[03:12:57] That's a thing.
[03:12:58] Not too many things in this world.
[03:13:00] Not too many things in this world, no downside.
[03:13:02] MorganUSA.com.
[03:13:05] Jeans, boots, geese, hunt gear,
[03:13:11] rash guards, t-shirts, beanies.
[03:13:14] How long is this gonna go?
[03:13:16] This could go a while.
[03:13:17] Here's the thing, all made in America.
[03:13:20] Right now you're seeing some stuff on the news right now.
[03:13:21] You're seeing in China there's a practical revolution
[03:13:24] happening right now.
[03:13:27] They got workers rebelling, slave labor rebelling.
[03:13:30] It's about time.
[03:13:31] Well, that's China.
[03:13:34] That's where your clothes are getting made
[03:13:37] if you're not buying from originUSA.com.
[03:13:40] You're enabling slave labor to happen.
[03:13:44] So don't do it.
[03:13:45] Get the best quality stuff.
[03:13:48] Get the best quality stuff made in America.
[03:13:51] Don't support slave labor.
[03:13:53] That's what I got for you, originUSA.com.
[03:13:55] It's true.
[03:13:56] Also, Jocko's a store called Jocko's Store.
[03:13:57] Did I say geese?
[03:13:58] Did I say jujujuju?
[03:13:59] Yeah, you do.
[03:14:00] I was talking to some jujuju.
[03:14:01] I was talking to someone who was like, brah.
[03:14:03] When you put an origin jujutsu-gi on,
[03:14:06] it's a totally different thing.
[03:14:09] It's a different thing.
[03:14:11] It's like you were driving in a Camry.
[03:14:15] Sure.
[03:14:16] No offense against Camrys, right?
[03:14:18] Apparently.
[03:14:19] But then you got put into a Cadillac.
[03:14:23] You know what I'm saying?
[03:14:24] I know what you're saying.
[03:14:24] Next level.
[03:14:25] It's a different thing.
[03:14:26] It's a different experience.
[03:14:27] Yeah, that's a good analogy.
[03:14:28] Hey, your brother used to have a Prius.
[03:14:31] Right?
[03:14:31] Does he still have it?
[03:14:32] No.
[03:14:33] See, he had that Prius.
[03:14:34] I didn't know what to think of a Prius, right?
[03:14:36] Because I'd never been in one.
[03:14:38] I got in his Prius.
[03:14:39] Bro, that thing was-
[03:14:40] You didn't like that?
[03:14:41] No, that thing was foolish.
[03:14:42] Foolish?
[03:14:44] I know it gets good mileage and whatnot.
[03:14:46] No, but I mean, it felt like economy class.
[03:14:51] Yes, it was very economy class.
[03:14:54] I'm sure there's different levels of interior of Prius.
[03:14:56] I'm sure that's my assumption.
[03:14:57] I don't know.
[03:14:58] I don't know how many Priuses I've ever been in
[03:15:00] besides his, but I think-
[03:15:03] Like you hit the bump and you feel it.
[03:15:05] Oh, the whole deal?
[03:15:06] Yeah, you're right.
[03:15:07] It's economy class.
[03:15:08] Yeah, it's different.
[03:15:09] It's different.
[03:15:10] So don't do that, man.
[03:15:11] Don't get an economy class, Guy.
[03:15:13] No.
[03:15:14] Get a first class, Guy.
[03:15:14] Yeah.
[03:15:15] Yeah, you're gonna feel the difference, for sure.
[03:15:17] Especially when you gotta roll around in that thing,
[03:15:18] two people trying to choke you with it.
[03:15:20] You will not.
[03:15:21] It's gonna make a difference.
[03:15:21] Hey, if you travel first class
[03:15:23] and then you go back to economy, you hate it.
[03:15:25] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
[03:15:26] It's the same thing here.
[03:15:26] You put on the origin, Guy.
[03:15:29] You're in first class.
[03:15:29] Then you go back into an economy, Guy.
[03:15:31] You're gonna hate it.
[03:15:32] It's gonna be pretty much the same.
[03:15:33] And once again, you're also gonna know
[03:15:34] in your subconscious mind that a 14-year-old girl
[03:15:39] in a slavery position was forced to make your Guy
[03:15:43] at gunpoint.
[03:15:44] 14 hours a day.
[03:15:45] 14 hours a day.
[03:15:46] Yeah, damn.
[03:15:48] So just keep that in mind, originUSA.com.
[03:15:51] Yeah, on that.
[03:15:53] Also, Joggle Store, if you wanna represent on the past,
[03:15:55] discipline equals freedom, shirts and hats.
[03:15:59] March, if you will.
[03:16:00] This is quality though.
[03:16:01] It's not like the cheap, free, I made it very wearable.
[03:16:04] We made it very wearable.
[03:16:06] Actually, a lot of people say
[03:16:07] it's their favorite fitting shirt.
[03:16:09] Shirt locker.
[03:16:11] Shirt locker is a different thing.
[03:16:12] Same quality.
[03:16:13] Same quality, kind of.
[03:16:14] Custom, sure.
[03:16:15] Yeah, they are custom.
[03:16:16] But yes, this subscription,
[03:16:17] you get a new one every month.
[03:16:18] Cool designs.
[03:16:19] A lot of people seem to like that one as well.
[03:16:21] So yeah, this is all on Joggle Store.com.
[03:16:23] There's a couple comment that I'm pretty,
[03:16:25] I'm pretty on board with the plan
[03:16:27] for some of the t-shirts in the shirt locker
[03:16:29] that are coming out.
[03:16:30] Yeah.
[03:16:31] Subscribe to that, subscribe to the podcast.
[03:16:33] Go to Joggle Underground.com.
[03:16:34] Look, there's stuff going on with the platforms right now.
[03:16:36] It's actually crazy to watch.
[03:16:38] What's going on?
[03:16:39] Social media, big tech companies, freedom of speech.
[03:16:44] There's all kinds of mayhem going on.
[03:16:46] Look, we gotta have a contingency plan.
[03:16:48] We, meaning you, listening, us sitting here.
[03:16:51] Contingency plan.
[03:16:53] Joggle Underground.com.
[03:16:55] If everything falls apart, we'll be there.
[03:16:59] It's $8.18 a month.
[03:17:00] If you can't afford it, that's okay.
[03:17:02] We got you email assistance at underground,
[03:17:05] at Joggle Underground.com.
[03:17:06] But listen, we don't know what's gonna happen
[03:17:08] with these platforms.
[03:17:10] And we can't just, look, you can't put your trust.
[03:17:16] You can't put complete trust into something
[03:17:19] you have no control over.
[03:17:20] You have to control your destiny.
[03:17:22] You have to take ownership of your future.
[03:17:24] So look, if everything, look, if we can stay on this path,
[03:17:26] cool, hey, we're down.
[03:17:27] We're, yeah, it's fine.
[03:17:30] If they wanna let us keep talking
[03:17:31] and we'll keep talking and we're all good,
[03:17:33] hey, we got no problem with that.
[03:17:34] But I can't just rely on that.
[03:17:36] We all can't just rely on the benevolence
[03:17:41] of these people that have no vested interest
[03:17:44] in what we're doing.
[03:17:44] In fact, sometimes it could be conceived
[03:17:46] that they have a vested interest
[03:17:48] in not supporting what we're doing.
[03:17:49] I'm just saying.
[03:17:51] That's where we have this Joggle Underground.com.
[03:17:54] Check that out.
[03:17:55] Subscribe to Joggle Podcasts, subscribe to OriginUSA,
[03:17:59] Psychological Warfare, flipsidecanvas.com,
[03:18:02] got a bunch of books, you know what they are.
[03:18:05] Check them out.
[03:18:05] Ashland Front, if you wanna come to one of these events
[03:18:09] with JD and I, go to ashlandfront.com.
[03:18:12] We got a leadership consultancy.
[03:18:13] This is one of the things that we do there
[03:18:15] is these battlefield tours, EF battlefields.
[03:18:17] Next one is March 21st through the 23rd.
[03:18:20] It's up in Gettysburg.
[03:18:21] It is going to impact the way you think
[03:18:27] and it's gonna impact your understanding of the world.
[03:18:31] If you come out to that.
[03:18:33] It impacts me every time.
[03:18:36] So ashlandfront.com, that's our leadership consultancy.
[03:18:39] We also have the Academy Online,
[03:18:40] Online Training Extreme Ownership.com.
[03:18:43] This is where we teach these lessons of life
[03:18:47] to everyone through the interwebs.
[03:18:50] Years ago, this wasn't even conceivable thing.
[03:18:52] It would just seem like, oh, how can you learn something
[03:18:55] over the internet?
[03:18:58] But Echo Charles, you know those videos that you make?
[03:19:01] Yeah, I do.
[03:19:02] Where'd you learn how to do that?
[03:19:03] Mostly the internet.
[03:19:04] Mostly?
[03:19:05] A lot of on the job training as well.
[03:19:09] Well, you don't feel, sorry, in the field.
[03:19:11] Where'd the knowledge come from?
[03:19:12] Oh yeah, the internet.
[03:19:13] So there you go.
[03:19:14] So check that out, extremownership.com.
[03:19:16] If you wanna learn to live your life better,
[03:19:18] you wanna learn to lead,
[03:19:20] you wanna learn to maneuver around the battlefield
[03:19:25] of humans, which is what we're all doing.
[03:19:27] Go to extremownership.com.
[03:19:29] And if you wanna help service members,
[03:19:30] you wanna be active and retired,
[03:19:31] they're families, Gold Star families.
[03:19:34] Check out Mark Lee's mom, Mama Lee.
[03:19:37] She's got a charity organization.
[03:19:38] If you wanna donate, you wanna get involved.
[03:19:40] America's mightywarriors.org.
[03:19:42] And also don't forget about Mike of Finks,
[03:19:43] organizationheroesandhorses.org.
[03:19:47] If you wanna connect with JD on the interwebs,
[03:19:50] theomna, O-M-N-A,
[03:19:53] theomna.com on Instagram,
[03:19:58] O-M-N-A underscore, underscore.
[03:20:02] Oh yeah.
[03:20:03] International, Facebook, O-M-N-A.
[03:20:06] You just call it omna, huh?
[03:20:08] Yes. You made it into a word.
[03:20:09] Yeah, it's omna.
[03:20:10] One man national asset.
[03:20:12] Everybody is a national asset.
[03:20:14] This starts as like a tongue in cheek thing though, right?
[03:20:16] Like hey, that guy thinks he's a one man national asset.
[03:20:19] He's theomna.
[03:20:20] But then it becomes,
[03:20:25] on the battlefield in business and life,
[03:20:27] everyone's job is critical to a team's success.
[03:20:33] Yeah, everybody.
[03:20:33] So there you go.
[03:20:35] As far as Echo and I were also on Twitter,
[03:20:38] Twitter's hot right now.
[03:20:39] You know that?
[03:20:41] Hey, Echo Charles lost all of his Twitter followers
[03:20:44] because he got stolen.
[03:20:46] How did somebody steal that from you?
[03:20:48] Did you get fished or something?
[03:20:50] Yeah, probably clicked on something.
[03:20:52] It happened that quick, huh?
[03:20:54] Yeah, well, I didn't really go on Twitter that much,
[03:20:57] so maybe I clicked on one of these lists.
[03:21:00] What kind of lists?
[03:21:02] You know, like 10 things you should avoid
[03:21:04] when you go to, I don't know, Russia or something.
[03:21:07] I don't know.
[03:21:08] You know, they have those lists.
[03:21:09] I always click on them.
[03:21:10] Okay, so these are clickbait.
[03:21:12] You're on the internet.
[03:21:13] You're surfing the interweb.
[03:21:15] Yeah, and then it's like,
[03:21:16] Is it inside of Twitter?
[03:21:18] This is what it'll do.
[03:21:18] Here's a heads up.
[03:21:19] It'll be something along the lines of this.
[03:21:22] And it's totally my fault.
[03:21:24] Where they'll be like, oh, go back to Twitter.
[03:21:28] You know, like you'll go on the website.
[03:21:29] It'll be all messy website or whatever.
[03:21:31] I'm usually pretty good at navigating it,
[03:21:33] but then it'll be like, oh, navigate back to Twitter.
[03:21:35] So you go back.
[03:21:36] Wait, you clicked on 10 things to avoid in Russia.
[03:21:39] Yeah, I'll read it.
[03:21:40] It comes up, there's 19 pop up ads.
[03:21:43] There's a bunch of weird shit going on that thing.
[03:21:46] You maybe even got a little flag warning that came up
[03:21:48] that this is a corrupt scenario.
[03:21:49] Probably, yeah.
[03:21:50] You just ignored all that.
[03:21:51] You read the 10 things.
[03:21:52] Maybe we should do an underground podcast
[03:21:55] about the 10 things to avoid in Russia.
[03:21:57] Since we did get the knowledge we paid for.
[03:21:58] I don't know.
[03:21:59] Yeah, there's a list of some sort.
[03:22:00] So then it says, do you want to return to Twitter?
[03:22:03] Navigate back to Twitter.
[03:22:04] And then you go and then like, if I'm not mistaken,
[03:22:08] it'll say like, oh, you're like logged out
[03:22:11] or something like that.
[03:22:12] So you log back in.
[03:22:13] Oh, bro.
[03:22:17] If I remember, it was something along those lines.
[03:22:19] Russia, you, you.
[03:22:20] It'll be like confirm or I don't know, something like that.
[03:22:22] Bro, you, yeah, yeah.
[03:22:24] You messed up.
[03:22:25] Yeah, I walked right into it.
[03:22:26] And then my account is just gone.
[03:22:29] They go and then they change your username,
[03:22:30] your password, everything.
[03:22:31] So your email doesn't even show up as the account.
[03:22:35] So I'm like, whatever, it's just Twitter.
[03:22:37] And then like maybe a week or two later,
[03:22:40] people are like messaging me like,
[03:22:41] hey, someone hacked your Twitter.
[03:22:43] So I'm like, you know, whatever.
[03:22:45] And then that day with me and you,
[03:22:47] I went and looked for it.
[03:22:48] It was just gone.
[03:22:49] Everything was gone.
[03:22:50] So I just signed up under my original name.
[03:22:51] It was available.
[03:22:52] So what, how many followers did you have?
[03:22:55] Do you know how many followers did you have?
[03:22:57] Well, like, I don't know, 70 something thousand.
[03:22:59] 70,000.
[03:23:01] And now how many do you have?
[03:23:02] 70?
[03:23:03] Yeah, something like that.
[03:23:04] But you're bummed out.
[03:23:05] You're sad because the rock, then the rock follow you.
[03:23:07] No, no, no, Joe Rogan.
[03:23:08] Joe Rogan followed you on Twitter and now he's gone.
[03:23:11] Yeah, brutal, brutal.
[03:23:13] Well, you still follow me now.
[03:23:14] So that's cool.
[03:23:15] I think I was, I think I might have been your first.
[03:23:17] Oh, I was your first follower.
[03:23:18] Yeah, you were literally.
[03:23:19] There you go.
[03:23:20] Anyways, if you want to follow Echo Charles
[03:23:23] on the, on the Twitter, on the gram, on the Facebook,
[03:23:26] I'm on there too, at Echo Charles and at Jocko willing.
[03:23:29] Watch out.
[03:23:30] Watch out for the algorithm.
[03:23:31] Number one, number two, watch out for the hackers.
[03:23:34] You know, that stuff.
[03:23:36] JD, anything else?
[03:23:38] No, I'm good.
[03:23:39] Right, all man.
[03:23:40] Well, thanks for coming down.
[03:23:42] Appreciate it.
[03:23:43] More important, thanks for your service in the Marine Corps.
[03:23:46] Teaching Marines how to fight, teaching them how to lead.
[03:23:49] It's been an honor working with you past few years
[03:23:52] and I look forward to doing more in the future.
[03:23:56] Thanks to all our military and tonight,
[03:23:59] especially to our Marines.
[03:24:02] Thank you for holding the line around the world
[03:24:04] to protect and preserve our way of life.
[03:24:07] And the same goes for all our police and law enforcement,
[03:24:09] firefighters, paramedics, EMTs, dispatchers,
[03:24:12] correctional officers, border patrol, secret service,
[03:24:15] all first responders.
[03:24:17] We're only able to live the way we do
[03:24:20] because you live your life and sacrifice the way you do.
[03:24:24] So thank you.
[03:24:27] And everyone else out there,
[03:24:28] remember what the Marine Corps says.
[03:24:31] That while physical health and strength and well-being
[03:24:35] is important and it certainly is.
[03:24:38] It certainly is.
[03:24:40] But remember that the principal weapon is the mind.
[03:24:45] So read, study, learn and of course,
[03:24:50] keep getting after it.
[03:24:51] And until next time, this is JD and Echo and Jaco.
[03:24:55] Out.