Jocko Podcast 361: You Can't Change The Temperature Of The Ocean. With Vietnam SEAL, Gil Espinoza.

2022-12-01T23:10:25Z

Underground Premium Content: https://www.jockounderground.com/subscribe Jocko Supplements: http://www.jockofuel.com Fire Fighter and retired Navy Frogman, Gil Espinoza. Join the conversation on Twitter/Instagram: @jockowillink @echocharles

AI summary of episode

He's like, you know, I'm really looking forward to like, you know, really developing and, you know, like, most people 75, bro, that's like, you know, you can just tell by them that he has that mindset, you know, and it shows. So when I got out of the fire department, guys are playing, oh, you got to remember where you're from, you know, all this bullshit, and I'm like, did you ever kill a commie from mommy, mother, you know, like, no, you know, there's a whole thing about how I fit into the fire department, but I would tell them, I've killed a better man than you, and meaning it, because that guy and I would have been friends. Well I told the one guy I went my interpreter says to be a thing on like saw what you know they come to know they come to you know I don't like him. It wasn't like an hour, going an hour later, we popped out right away, because we knew about the intel leaks, and so we got back, we decided to do a quick hop, and said, let's just go out, work, so we grabbed like five guys, and we took off, didn't even tell the rest of the group, and we went out, night, early in the morning, got hit, and we went and checked the bodies, and there was a kid with the white scarf, and the kid with the white scarf was the kid that we drank with in Saigon. You know, he's like, he says, we didn't know where they were at, you know, but there's a lot of, there's a lot of that stuff, you know, but yeah. And that's my respect for the cats like you and guys that have been in for 34 years that like Hayden like Hayden Chau Dica's guys like Frisk and crawdad and you know those guys. You know like what happened you know this free love and all that other like where's where's the moral conviction where's those things it was like there weren't there weren't any there's what year was it that you got out 69 and 70 I got back in Vietnam. oh my god, man, I think his name is Trann, but yeah, he looks at me and goes, man, you know, and that's when I understood that warriors, right, that the ideologies of countries, right, use us, that we go fight these wars, we go do whatever that is, but I wrote it, I got it, wrote it on my phone, right now I'm kind of… yeah, he shot the shit out of us, you know, but we were using the army tactics, and we weren't using the seal tactics, right, and how we would patrol and our warning orders, they were, you know, doing a fast warning order and the brief hop and then going, we never left, we never, it was like right away. I think I said it was one of the things with the PRU program that was kind of weird, because they kept body counts like that, you know, that inhumanity thing, that whole CIA bullshit, you know, the whole PRU thing, you know, that they were all cowboys. You don't know that you're black, you don't know that you're brown, you don't know that you're white, you don't know any of that stuff, you're a kid, right? And when I look at ops that you know like that like our new guys now you guys right the young guys that get killed in Afghanistan. He came in, I grabbed hold of Charlie, man, I hit him with that high cross, dropped him down, you know, and just started, and two times in my life, that time when I started beating him badly, another time when I came back from Vietnam, I got in a fight with a guy, it felt like, and you never see the Patriot, you know, when he hacks up that guy that kills his son. We laughed, we drank, we smoked cigarettes, and when we left, we felt sad that it wasn't going to work, and then you meet them on… this is a small world, man, you know, and my heart broke that day, you know, and I told this story to my grandson, and he put it in a poem, but he said, and his heart was crushed, and that was hard, you know, other than getting connected. You know I'm just hanging on you know all this kind of stuff you know and those guys are looking at Lou you know Pro the pro advisor team guy got this information right he says I just need you guys to come in and back me up because we had the stoners he had the mean some of those guys all they had with the carbines right and two carbines and maybe maybe one 16 and with those guys with the Vietnamese seals you might find an M 60 with the proves you wouldn't. So when I strip off all the bullshit, right, without the socialization that comes in, through the society or the socialization that happens in your own family, the pure thing, you know, your kids fighting each other or brothers fighting each other or in your neighborhood, Bobby Cervantes, you know, going to pick on him because he's black and he looked like Cochise and he was the target of every teacher we had through racism and classism and everything else. So, I said, so his friends came, we sat and we drank, liked him, you know, we connected, you know, sometimes you don't even know somebody, but you feel good with them, right? So this guy in the colonel goes flying over and he throws a CS grenade out so the CS grenade goes out and pins his guys down they're getting sniped at the rest of us and we're in our different shit Levi some of us were laying up along bank and the helicopter lands right outside of us right lands right outside of us so he comes walking along as we're laying up the bank and and he walks by had he's sitting there looking at us and hi says I guess you're the dumb motherfucker they do that CS grenade out. You know we dealt with that in the teams a long time before that you know we're gay guys or whatever it is you know the like in community So I'm like this guy like this like you know you can feel the like rain fitting on the top of your head. I said I don't know you know he says look grabs me look at me right in the eyes he says listen. He used to, anyway, he said something really important where he was like, yeah, my dad, he would like, he said there was something along the lines of, uh, don't give yourself like the excuse of age to start going less hard or whatever. And then I look at guys like you you got your podcast you got your thing going to do to if they had a MMA when I was coming back from the mod have been to I was going to five points endeavor to fight mostly black guys because that's where the danger was. And I'm going, well, I wasn't there lying right away, you know, kind of like going through seal training, man. So show up the area and I look at guys like Echo and look at guys like Jaco, I'm going the same question like, what the, what am I doing here? And, uh, so he, that's when he became my teammate, you know, of him sharing that with me, you know, and we did a talk one time for, Seawolf gunships, you know, come to Texas and he says, Espy, you want to tell me that story about the Seawolf gunships? I look at some of the events, you know, of how guys are getting killed now and I'm thinking it's like when I when we got when we got shot at and then the officer says, we take him under fire. I said I knew you could do that you know and when I when I read like in the in the that we're God when when Christ got baptized right that the word says that. Now I got a hat, you know, and I got two bottles of whiskey that now it's like, oh, I don't want to get too much, you know? I don't know, like I said, I think genetics, you know, my dad was, my dad was a drywaller, man. I'm going, so I, he says, I'd like to see Rose because we were just the normal might like you didn't know anything about a fire because this thing happened. We were in civilian clothes, they don't know who you are, you know, so Bill was sitting like this, you know, looking around. If we're going to, if we're UDT guys are going to be running SEAL Ops, I want to know what I need to know to do that. I'm back from Vietnam is like you know wait a minute you know I did I. Vietnam veterans against war the young social street public the Viva the Azzalan thing is like And usually if you're going through the like the dance jungle you carry the flichette rounds or the you know like canister rounds right. And so the next, that was a, that was Saturday morning, Sunday came and all the guys in the class were barely walking and they're sitting there looking at me, you know, and I'm looking at them and like, and I'm sure they were saying, I fucking quit her, you know? And so, my brother takes me over there, and he says, had this kid come out, he holds it as brother, they come out, and I'm like, you know, in order to maintain that part that you're intelligent, loving, caring, with that natural curiosity and zest for life, you have these natural physiological releases, which are laughing, talking, crying, shaking, sweating, yawning, and all that stuff, right? Support for anybody they were doing everything like from the bush right kind of like guys who worked with the mountain yards right. And for me, it was kind of like there was, there was something was going on too, because I was pretty violent and previous, you know, when, when that happened, I got fed up with everything, right? you know like, you know, everybody is like that it's that calmness. I did cry because I was in Balboa Hospital and it felt like that damn hell week when the guys were going around in the paddle, you know, and going to finish the hell week. And, you know, I think when I was there, a man's inhumanity to man, you know, I was with my buddy, Noyce, right? And then when you go to class, you look around, I mean, look at guys like you and I went, I was like, what the hell are you doing here, right? Like if we were expecting something big or we just do seven man teams and were you usually a point man as point and rear can like go back and forth you know. I said, I said, hey, man, I said, me and Garcia, we know we're minorities, but you're a white guy. Just in general is not that good of an idea where it seems like, like he wasn't, you know, Gil like didn't do that. But it could have also been like some random story about, you know, we called him black mac because he, you know, he got gunpowder on the blah, blah, blah. Then there was like about, I don't know, like there was probably about the three weeks or something like that. And the guy that was always pretty cool was Lou you know when I got when I got hit you know he was pissed at me. I looked at him, man, and I got, you know, I got emotional, and I told Noyce, he said, come here, Billy goes in and looks, and he goes, All these guys, you know, the guys, because it wasn't just the guys were wounded, but they actually did the extrication, right? So I said, all right, so we got shot at, you know, we were on a dyke and these guys shot at us. And this one you got there that was the first thing you got tasked with was the first thing you got tasked with when you got on the ground was your job would you put to know operate as a platoon or do you immediately get shaved off and. I have like I have two boats probably about six guys in each boat we're going to do a pro op we're going to go get these tax collectors right. I've been in a canoe before like a canoe but the sandpans are like they got they're like flat bottom little thing And I think if you had the doubt, and I don't know how guys work now, if you have any doubt, you don't belong going, you know? How can we switch from a stoner to a 60 because I just wanted something bigger something bigger like this like the son like they had their M16s right. You know, like when, when you, when you're in the cold water, that whole thing, you know, just keeping your shit together. I'm not going to, it was like, I don't know, like two invisible forces that had no way to communicate. You know, he gave that to us to say, it's kind of like a letter that I wrote to a girl that I thought I was breaking up with, you know, about all I love you, da, da, da, da, da, da. One of my battalion chiefs told me, is this Gil and my cousin, Davey, when I beat up a guy real badly and my bad chiefs sit there and he says, Gil, I don't know if you need a priest, a psychiatrist, a doctor, a counselor or what, but I don't know how to deal with you. That guy's a very famous East Coast seal you know big name high name that's never going to be in the history books but that's how things happen then you know it wasn't. He's got little blue eyes, you know, and got teeth that actually later on in Oliver and broke his teeth, pushed on his head on a swimming pool, right, and the water is decked and he had his teeth. I'm the little guy of my life but you know when I when I got that letter it's like a whole new thing. And you're going to run into some Marines are going to sit there and look at you like it's just you know even these watches would get you in a fight with them. You know because there were Vietnamese they were the pro guys they weren't they weren't team guys you know they weren't. It's like even the weapons because you get your weapon but then on your weapon you put a laser and you put a scope and it is if you put a light like everything's just you guys look like super slick compared to us we were we were quiet. And we think sometimes that you can only see that in war we got people in communities that that are going through the same thing of trying going through post-traumatic stress in their own neighborhoods you know. So I'm going to, instead of getting this hard set of 10 with, you know, 100 pounds or whatever, dumbbells, I'm going to do like 80s. So my dad sends me to go find these guys I'm going I'm looking at the track and there was like I don't know where to go.

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Episode transcript

[00:00:00] This is Jocko Podcast number 361 with Echo Charles and me,
[00:00:04] Jocko Willink, good evening Echo.
[00:00:05] Good evening.
[00:00:07] In March of 1969, the Rand Corporation,
[00:00:10] a semi-private think tank that specialized in research
[00:00:13] and analysis for the Department of Defense,
[00:00:15] published a report titled, The Navy Seal Commandos,
[00:00:20] a case study of military decision making
[00:00:22] and organizational change.
[00:00:25] As far as I know, the first academic level study
[00:00:28] of the SEAL teams.
[00:00:29] The report's author was Francis J. Bing West,
[00:00:34] a former force recon Marine in Vietnam War veteran
[00:00:37] whose investigation had begun a year earlier
[00:00:40] and whose research had produced a raft of documents,
[00:00:43] dozens of interviews and the firsthand observation
[00:00:47] of several SEAL missions into the Rung Sat and Mekong Delta.
[00:00:52] For this research, West had produced an 18 page report
[00:00:55] whose introduction provided a brief description
[00:00:58] of SEAL training, training he estimated
[00:01:00] at a cost of around $14,000 per man,
[00:01:04] plus an overview of the SEAL's commitment to Vietnam
[00:01:07] at its height, a commitment that never exceeded 150 SEALs
[00:01:11] or roughly 1,150 fewer than the in-country height
[00:01:16] of the Green Berets total compliment.
[00:01:20] It was a commitment that stood out in even starker relief
[00:01:23] when placed next to the author's obvious admiration
[00:01:26] for the SEAL's progression from lackluster coastal raiders
[00:01:30] to the war's most aggressive direct action commandos.
[00:01:34] Admittedly, commandos who had had no business
[00:01:38] becoming such and thus had drawn the interest
[00:01:41] of the same preeminent think tank
[00:01:43] that it created the US military's nuclear defense strategy.
[00:01:48] Intended as a study on organizational change,
[00:01:51] the report's true purpose had been to discover
[00:01:54] how the Navy could have possibly succeeded
[00:01:57] in creating a land focused commando force,
[00:02:00] a force that even the Viet Cong had reportedly dubbed
[00:02:04] the men with green faces,
[00:02:06] a color not normally associated
[00:02:08] with the Navy's traditional medium.
[00:02:11] It was a puzzle of personal importance to the author
[00:02:14] as the Marine Corps, the far more likely branch of service
[00:02:18] had never succeeded in creating anything similar.
[00:02:21] Ultimately, the author decided the most important factor
[00:02:25] in the SEAL's infringement was owing to the SEAL's themselves
[00:02:30] and the culture that weighed upon them.
[00:02:33] Drawn from a notorious lease selective training program
[00:02:37] that produced few qualified candidates,
[00:02:40] the SEALs naturally had had to find a mission
[00:02:44] that kept casualties low,
[00:02:45] a circumstance that might have pushed them,
[00:02:48] like the LURPs or the force recon Marines
[00:02:51] into a reconnaissance role.
[00:02:52] Had they had anyone to pass the intelligence to,
[00:02:56] they hadn't, nor had there been any great pressure
[00:03:00] from the riverine force to engage in any sort of green beret
[00:03:03] style advisory, duty or civic action.
[00:03:07] Organizational orphans with no larger force
[00:03:11] to support or control them
[00:03:13] and possessing no love or admiration for the Vietnamese,
[00:03:17] the SEALs had set out into the swamps,
[00:03:20] not to prove themselves,
[00:03:22] the training had already done that, said the author,
[00:03:25] but because not to go would have been inexcusable
[00:03:30] to the others.
[00:03:32] They had developed a collective value system
[00:03:34] which emphasized physical hardiness and courage
[00:03:38] and they liked to fight.
[00:03:41] So when the tactics of patrol and ambush
[00:03:44] had proved unproductive, nobody not a SEAL,
[00:03:48] meaning no blue water superior officer
[00:03:51] had ordered them to try something else,
[00:03:54] they had just done it.
[00:03:57] What strikes me as most remarkable
[00:03:59] about the SEAL story, the author concluded,
[00:04:02] is their performance and their ability to learn
[00:04:06] and adapt in a decentralized, sub-optimizing environment.
[00:04:12] The Navy's traditional latitude
[00:04:14] and the UDT's traditional adaptability
[00:04:17] created what several unidentified SEALs
[00:04:21] soon described to a documentary filmmaker
[00:04:24] as the war's unsung soldier
[00:04:27] and what we consider without question
[00:04:30] the best troops that the country has.
[00:04:33] Both descriptions notable
[00:04:34] because they didn't use the word sailors
[00:04:38] and just short of the reader's digest appraisal
[00:04:40] that had dubbed them the war's super commandos.
[00:04:44] By the end, these would be assessments
[00:04:49] that were next to impossible to dispute.
[00:04:55] And that right there is a little excerpt
[00:04:57] from the book by Water Beneath the Walls,
[00:05:01] a book written by Ben Milligan.
[00:05:04] He's been on the podcast a couple of times.
[00:05:05] He's a former SEAL and this is indisputably,
[00:05:09] speaking of indisputably,
[00:05:11] this is the best book about the history
[00:05:13] and the emergence of the SEAL teams that's ever been written.
[00:05:18] And that section that I just read
[00:05:20] is from a section of the book called Culmination,
[00:05:23] which is where the roots of the SEAL teams
[00:05:27] finally grew into what we ultimately became.
[00:05:29] From our frog man forefathers, it was in Vietnam
[00:05:34] where the SEALs proved their medal
[00:05:38] as a maritime direct action force.
[00:05:44] And it is an honor to have one of those Vietnam era SEALs
[00:05:49] here with us tonight, Mr. Gil Espinoza
[00:05:52] to share his experiences and lessons learned.
[00:05:55] Gil, thanks for joining us.
[00:05:57] Good evening.
[00:05:58] I heard you kind of smiling at some of those descriptions
[00:06:02] to that in this book with what was going on.
[00:06:04] Yeah, it's kind of interesting of how that,
[00:06:11] I think even he looks at us, he's in the teams,
[00:06:13] he looks at us, but every frog man has his own way
[00:06:15] that he looks at things, every single one of us, right?
[00:06:18] And I'm just thinking about other people,
[00:06:22] you know what I'm saying, even Roger, right?
[00:06:24] His whole mindset and how he looks at it
[00:06:26] can be totally different and even operational,
[00:06:30] even combat, you get done doing something
[00:06:32] and years later you're bullshitting with somebody
[00:06:35] and it's kind of like, no, we didn't do that, we did this.
[00:06:38] Now how bullshitting, I'm sure it was General.
[00:06:40] No, I think it was tax collectors, you know,
[00:06:42] I'll go, are you sure?
[00:06:44] Even the whole history, right?
[00:06:45] Yeah.
[00:06:46] And then you have a guy that goes,
[00:06:48] was it generals or was it tax collectors?
[00:06:50] And another teammate go, well that guy wasn't even there.
[00:06:54] So some of our stories, I think some of our stories
[00:06:57] get conflicted with other people's stories,
[00:06:59] but you do remember the ones that were specifically yours
[00:07:03] that came from here and we're talking about
[00:07:06] the heart of the frog man, you know,
[00:07:08] that I see where he's writing from, you know?
[00:07:12] Yeah, no, he does a great job and actually
[00:07:15] it's pretty incredible, some of the stuff that he documents,
[00:07:19] for instance, there's a scene where Rangers
[00:07:22] are being overrun and he's got quotes
[00:07:26] of as they're making radio calls,
[00:07:28] hey, we're being overrun, we need more support,
[00:07:31] God, you know, the commanders, not with them
[00:07:34] and he's saying, do the best you can,
[00:07:36] God speed, that kind of thing.
[00:07:38] And you read it and you're thinking, oh, you know,
[00:07:41] he seemed to have done a good job,
[00:07:42] sort of coming up with what the dialogue would be.
[00:07:46] And then you read the footnote,
[00:07:48] it's not something he came up with, it's documented.
[00:07:51] These are, there are people writing down the radio calls
[00:07:53] and it's exactly what these guys said.
[00:07:56] So he's just a very, it took him seven years
[00:07:58] to write this book, incredible book.
[00:08:02] But nothing better than the horse's mouth
[00:08:04] and since we got the horse here.
[00:08:06] Well, I've been trying to write a book since I came,
[00:08:09] thought it in my head, you know, leaving Vietnam
[00:08:11] or being on the fire department and wrestling in college,
[00:08:14] I mean, the whole thing coming back home
[00:08:16] and looking back into where it all began
[00:08:20] from being a little boy.
[00:08:21] Well, let's get into it, where did it begin?
[00:08:23] Let's start at the beginning.
[00:08:24] Well, you can tell I'm not as big as Echo or you, right?
[00:08:29] And then when you go to class, you look around,
[00:08:31] I mean, look at guys like you and I went,
[00:08:33] I was like, what the hell are you doing here, right?
[00:08:36] But as a little kid, I was raised in Boulder,
[00:08:39] moved from Rocky Ford where I was a little kid to Boulder
[00:08:43] and I left all my family, my grandmas, my aunts,
[00:08:47] my all my cousins, everybody, everybody in my family,
[00:08:49] we're moving to Boulder someplace I never knew.
[00:08:51] And this is with your-
[00:08:52] My mom and dad.
[00:08:53] Your mom and dad.
[00:08:54] Right, and my-
[00:08:55] What made them decide to move?
[00:08:57] Economics, they actually were migrant workers.
[00:09:00] My dad became a suck-o-drug contractor
[00:09:03] and then later on, it just got really, really hard
[00:09:05] and we had an uncle that owned a barber shop in Boulder.
[00:09:08] So the family moved where the family was, right?
[00:09:11] Just like now, right?
[00:09:12] Everybody moves to where you have somebody
[00:09:15] to get a foothold in.
[00:09:19] So in kindergarten, this kid beat me up, right?
[00:09:23] So my brother, I'm kind of whining,
[00:09:25] and my brother said, what happened?
[00:09:27] What's up?
[00:09:27] I said, well, that guy, John and Maya beat me up.
[00:09:30] John and Maya, I know his brother.
[00:09:32] And also they dragged me to his place.
[00:09:35] And my brother was my hero.
[00:09:37] When I was like five years old,
[00:09:38] when I was five years old, I was doing chin-ups.
[00:09:41] When I remember when I was one,
[00:09:42] he'd hang me on a door and walk out and leave me.
[00:09:45] He'd come around and I got to where I'm one or two
[00:09:47] and finally he had a look around
[00:09:49] and I remember I was like three or four,
[00:09:50] I could get my elbow up on the door, right?
[00:09:52] And he'd had me doing chin-ups.
[00:09:54] We had a rope for a swing.
[00:09:56] He had me climbing up that rope when I was five.
[00:09:58] When I was five, I could.
[00:09:59] What year is this?
[00:10:00] So this is like 1953 or 19,
[00:10:02] because you were born in what, 1947?
[00:10:04] Yeah, so I was five years old, it was 53.
[00:10:07] So your brother had, your older brother had
[00:10:09] like a early start on the physical culture.
[00:10:13] Yeah, he was a wrestler.
[00:10:14] He was just in, oh, so he was a wrestler.
[00:10:16] His wrestler, and then when he went to Boulder,
[00:10:19] he's kicking the hell out of the guys in Boulder,
[00:10:21] but they were still the underlying racist stuff.
[00:10:24] And so what, so what are you, you're Native American?
[00:10:27] Well, from the Pickers' point of my mind,
[00:10:29] Grandma's Pickers, we identify mainly as Spanish, right?
[00:10:33] Not Mexicano, not Mexican,
[00:10:35] because our people did not come up from Mexico.
[00:10:37] They came from, you know, from Spain,
[00:10:40] from through California, then to New Mexico,
[00:10:42] through establishing through the Spanish land grants,
[00:10:45] and then with the mestizos, right, the Native Americans,
[00:10:48] the blended culture, right?
[00:10:51] And so then everything, the subsistence living,
[00:10:54] then the government comes in and says,
[00:10:57] you gotta pay taxes, it was all subsistence.
[00:10:59] So how are they gonna pay taxes
[00:11:01] when they never really made any money,
[00:11:03] but you would trade 10 chickens for a cow or whatever.
[00:11:06] I mean, there was always-
[00:11:07] So they were doing old school barter.
[00:11:09] Old school barter.
[00:11:10] And then they had to sell their land and then move.
[00:11:14] And my dad's family had some Spanish land grant stuff,
[00:11:18] so his stepfather, my dad's dad died when he was like, baby.
[00:11:22] My dad says the government came in
[00:11:24] and gave all the men shots, step-tury shots,
[00:11:26] and you know, guys died.
[00:11:29] And so they moved and got up to Rocky Ford
[00:11:32] and established themselves as a community.
[00:11:35] All my cousins lived on one block.
[00:11:37] There was my uncle and my grandma,
[00:11:39] my other uncle, all of us lived on one block.
[00:11:42] And literally there was a train track
[00:11:44] in the back of our yard.
[00:11:46] And there was one, it was kind of like a cul-de-sac
[00:11:49] that went out to a main road.
[00:11:50] And on the other side was a ditch, water.
[00:11:54] Smell kind of like the Mekong man.
[00:11:55] So when I was in Vietnam, I said,
[00:11:59] I was like, what kind of smells like that?
[00:12:04] So I was between a railroad track and a river, right?
[00:12:07] And we were always told,
[00:12:08] don't play on the tracks and don't play on the river.
[00:12:11] Six, five years old, we had a pipe
[00:12:13] that went across that river, right?
[00:12:16] It's a slow man, it's a slow ditch.
[00:12:20] Our deal of manhood or whatever it was as cousins
[00:12:22] were all about the same age was to go across the ditch,
[00:12:26] hanging upside down, going up.
[00:12:27] And then it was not a swim.
[00:12:30] But that's where I'm getting to the point
[00:12:31] of being the young boy, little boy, right?
[00:12:34] No fear, you don't have that until somebody tells you,
[00:12:37] don't go into the ditch, you're gonna drown.
[00:12:39] You don't know what drowning is until somebody,
[00:12:41] till you do want a bit of swimming pool,
[00:12:43] you go, I could drown, right?
[00:12:45] But you don't have that fear, you know?
[00:12:48] You don't know that you're black,
[00:12:51] you don't know that you're brown,
[00:12:51] you don't know that you're white,
[00:12:52] you don't know any of that stuff, you're a kid, right?
[00:12:55] Intelligent, loving, caring,
[00:12:56] that natural curiosity and zest for life,
[00:12:58] that powerful person as a little boy.
[00:13:01] Well, I got my ass kicked by John Amaya, right?
[00:13:05] You didn't know you'd get your ass kicked
[00:13:06] until John Amaya kicked your ass.
[00:13:09] Yeah, I had climbing ropes, I was having a good time,
[00:13:11] I'm a kid, and I think all kids are like that, right?
[00:13:14] Initially, well, they're all like that.
[00:13:16] And so, my brother takes me over there,
[00:13:18] and he says, had this kid come out,
[00:13:22] he holds it as brother, they come out,
[00:13:23] and I'm like, you know, in order to maintain that part
[00:13:26] that you're intelligent, loving, caring,
[00:13:27] with that natural curiosity and zest for life,
[00:13:29] you have these natural physiological releases,
[00:13:31] which are laughing, talking, crying, shaking, sweating,
[00:13:35] yawning, and all that stuff, right?
[00:13:36] To keep that, to keep that intact, right?
[00:13:41] So I'm going through all that stuff,
[00:13:42] and my brother had a warrior brother, right?
[00:13:45] He wanted to make sure, he knew I was going to get
[00:13:47] my ass kicked on as a kid.
[00:13:49] So he took, because I'm sure it happened to him,
[00:13:51] but he was my older brother, I didn't know that stuff.
[00:13:53] How much older was he then?
[00:13:54] Nine years old.
[00:13:55] Oh, dang, so that's a big spread.
[00:13:57] So he's a real, like, hero to you.
[00:13:59] Oh, man, yeah.
[00:14:01] He's a chief, retired Navy chief, he went to the Navy.
[00:14:05] How'd I want to fit in the Navy?
[00:14:06] So, this kid comes out, and my brother next to me goes,
[00:14:10] now remember, remember that little, he showed me
[00:14:12] a duck under, right?
[00:14:14] A duck under, and a high crotch in the throat.
[00:14:17] He said, just do that.
[00:14:18] I'm going, because I mean, I couldn't really do it
[00:14:21] to him, my brother, but he would show me.
[00:14:23] I said, all right, so I came up, the kid,
[00:14:25] come underneath, I grabbed him with the duck under,
[00:14:27] threw him down, he says, and when you throw him down,
[00:14:29] sit on him and make him say, uncle.
[00:14:32] I mean, that was the old rule of the old days, right?
[00:14:34] Threw him down, I'm saying, say uncle, you know?
[00:14:36] Okay, uncle.
[00:14:37] My brother, then he says, don't ever let anybody,
[00:14:42] don't let your brother mess around,
[00:14:43] anybody mess with my brother,
[00:14:44] you just let him know I've got his back.
[00:14:46] So, I go to school, back to Liberty, right?
[00:14:48] Great school in Rocky Fort, and everybody,
[00:14:51] watch out for that little guy, they call me Tuffy.
[00:14:53] I didn't know.
[00:14:55] So, then when we left Rocky Fort, I'm crying all the way
[00:14:59] from Rocky Fort to Boulder, and my dad gets tired of it.
[00:15:04] He says, God, did he give me, he stopped at the overlook.
[00:15:08] You ever been to Boulder, Colorado?
[00:15:09] No.
[00:15:11] When you come down into it, it's beautiful, I didn't.
[00:15:15] So, I'm crying, my dad grabs me, pulls off the side of the
[00:15:18] road, grabs me, and throws me in the back.
[00:15:20] I don't know if I'm going, right?
[00:15:21] As we were coming over this hill, I'm thinking,
[00:15:25] I don't have anybody, that aloneness, being alone,
[00:15:28] like when you start training, right?
[00:15:30] Or you go in the Navy, where you feel that you're alone,
[00:15:32] or anytime that you left the islands, right?
[00:15:36] And for a little boy to be alone, that was the beginning
[00:15:39] of being a frogman.
[00:15:40] I look at it now, right?
[00:15:43] And so, when we came over, I looked, I picked up,
[00:15:47] because he threw me in the back of the truck,
[00:15:48] got tired of me being inside, in here.
[00:15:51] And I think the thing is we, those of us who are
[00:15:55] introspective, or really searching for what is,
[00:15:58] who we are, right?
[00:16:00] That little boy is always who we were, but it gets
[00:16:03] covered up by all the bullshit.
[00:16:05] Well, when I went over and I looked, I saw these
[00:16:09] mountains, and in my heart, I heard, no, we're here,
[00:16:13] and we'll be your friends forever.
[00:16:14] And it was a squaw and a brave.
[00:16:16] I look at them, I could see the silhouettes of them,
[00:16:18] I went, and I looked down, and I saw the shining lights.
[00:16:24] It's the same thing that I got when I saw Point Loma,
[00:16:27] when I was going to Vietnam, right?
[00:16:28] And I saw Point Loma and the fingers pointing,
[00:16:32] that way to Vietnam, right?
[00:16:34] But when I sensed that, I went, okay, so I go to school
[00:16:39] and boulder, and I got dang, Charlie Mestis beats me
[00:16:44] up to first day.
[00:16:45] And my brother, I was like, seven, or seven or eight.
[00:16:52] And I didn't want to tell my brother, because I didn't,
[00:16:54] you know, I didn't want to go.
[00:16:55] Didn't want him to set up another prize fight for you.
[00:16:58] Right, so I got my ass kicked for five days,
[00:17:02] figuring it out, and that's when I understood
[00:17:04] the inside warrior.
[00:17:07] The inside warrior is the one that talks to you,
[00:17:09] that goes, boom, you get hit here,
[00:17:10] and it's kind of like figuring stuff out,
[00:17:13] just like your first wrestling match,
[00:17:14] or Jiu Jitsu, or your first appointment, right?
[00:17:17] And I felt that that's what I was doing.
[00:17:19] I was sensing and understanding it.
[00:17:22] And then one day the outside warrior came in.
[00:17:29] He came in, I grabbed hold of Charlie, man,
[00:17:31] I hit him with that high cross, dropped him down,
[00:17:33] you know, and just started, and two times in my life,
[00:17:36] that time when I started beating him badly,
[00:17:39] another time when I came back from Vietnam,
[00:17:40] I got in a fight with a guy, it felt like,
[00:17:43] and you never see the Patriot, you know,
[00:17:45] when he hacks up that guy that kills his son.
[00:17:49] When I saw that movie, I started crying,
[00:17:53] because that's the way I felt, right?
[00:17:55] That's totally not out of control.
[00:17:57] You don't ever have these flashbacks
[00:17:59] where you're totally out of control,
[00:18:00] and it's always, Calc, it's always the inside,
[00:18:04] the outside warrior always understands
[00:18:06] what's happening and what he's doing,
[00:18:08] it's just that when does he feel like stopping?
[00:18:10] And the inside warrior says, that's enough.
[00:18:14] But they both cover up the little boy,
[00:18:15] because the little boy would have never wanted
[00:18:17] to have that fight in the first place.
[00:18:19] He wants to be a little kid.
[00:18:20] So rather than asking myself, and I did ask myself,
[00:18:23] what's wrong with me?
[00:18:25] That's not even the question.
[00:18:27] The question is, what's wrong with Charlie?
[00:18:31] Why is he jacked up, you know?
[00:18:34] And then later on, I kind of became Charlie.
[00:18:37] But when you find out that you can wrestle
[00:18:39] and you're a pretty tough guy, then you're picking on guys
[00:18:42] that you know you shouldn't even be picking on,
[00:18:44] but they don't know how to wrestle.
[00:18:45] They're big guys that don't know how to wrestle,
[00:18:46] but you do.
[00:18:48] So I won that fight, and then what happens?
[00:18:54] Another guy named Terry Fox, big guy,
[00:18:56] he wanted to beat the hell out of me.
[00:18:58] So I'm like, what the hell, trying to figure this out?
[00:19:01] And that was the very first time that an ally came in.
[00:19:06] And he was Mike Martinez.
[00:19:08] And he said, hey man, he says,
[00:19:09] he's too little for you to fight.
[00:19:11] He said, when you fight me, I understood allies, you know?
[00:19:16] And so I called him Uncle Mike.
[00:19:18] And let everybody know he's my nephew.
[00:19:21] What grade are you in at this point?
[00:19:23] That one, that was in second grade.
[00:19:26] Dang.
[00:19:27] You know, so that happened.
[00:19:29] So that was my life, right?
[00:19:31] And then I came into this group,
[00:19:36] it's called the God Street neighborhood, right?
[00:19:38] It was right after the war, we were all born in 47,
[00:19:40] most of us, the poor whites, the Jews,
[00:19:45] the blacks that worked on the train,
[00:19:49] the Polish, the guys left over from World War II,
[00:19:53] the Mexicanos and a couple Japanese guys, right?
[00:19:57] That was-
[00:19:58] This is your neighborhood?
[00:19:58] That was my neighborhood on God Street in Boulder, right?
[00:20:00] So when people say it takes a village or is it a town,
[00:20:03] that's bullshit.
[00:20:05] Because it takes,
[00:20:08] if I have not picked up something that wasn't mine,
[00:20:11] Mr. Toledo's sitting on the front porch.
[00:20:13] Is that yours?
[00:20:14] No, man, put the goddamn thing down.
[00:20:19] Or you're cutting school, what are you guys doing over here?
[00:20:21] You mean, you know, when you're supposed to be in school?
[00:20:23] Yeah, so there was always this, my mom said,
[00:20:26] what were you doing over there?
[00:20:27] And I'm going, well, I wasn't there lying right away,
[00:20:30] you know, kind of like going through seal training, man.
[00:20:32] You start lying, cheat, steal, do whatever you can do
[00:20:35] to get through this training, but don't get caught, right?
[00:20:39] Oliver and Chief Allen, don't get caught.
[00:20:41] That's Mr. Toledo and Ms. Martinez and Mr. Rannies,
[00:20:43] you know, don't get caught.
[00:20:44] And then when you got caught, my mom,
[00:20:47] how do you know that?
[00:20:48] This isn't, little bird told me.
[00:20:51] So I'm like, who in the hell is this little bird?
[00:20:54] It's a little bird called a rat.
[00:20:55] It was all of them, you know,
[00:20:57] but that was that neighborhood of caring people
[00:20:58] that really care about you, but what's going on?
[00:21:01] Not because you're Mexicans or not because you're Spanish,
[00:21:03] not because you're white, because this is your neighborhood,
[00:21:06] this is where you belong.
[00:21:07] This was my, and it isn't an identity thing,
[00:21:10] it's a belonging thing that you know they're invested in
[00:21:14] in you and the deal was all of us are going to go to school.
[00:21:18] We're all not gonna cut school.
[00:21:20] There was a black guy and we had to give up our language.
[00:21:22] Those of us were Spanish, right?
[00:21:24] Don't speak Spanish in school.
[00:21:26] So we're getting ready to go to school.
[00:21:29] Well, this is in high school,
[00:21:30] but in junior high it was the same thing.
[00:21:32] I go to junior high, there's this guy, Nick Crispin, right?
[00:21:37] The bad ass kid in school, the ninth grader
[00:21:40] and I'm seventh grade, little beat up this kid.
[00:21:45] I said, I don't even know that kid.
[00:21:47] Well, if you don't beat him up, I'll beat you up.
[00:21:49] So it's like, ah, so I don't want to get beat up,
[00:21:52] so I beat up a kid that I beat him up.
[00:21:55] And so then, but then what happens inside, right?
[00:21:58] That heart, that thing that comes in, goes,
[00:22:00] this isn't right.
[00:22:01] So I went up to the guy and I said, hey, look man,
[00:22:05] I said, we might as well fight now
[00:22:06] because I'm not gonna do that again.
[00:22:08] Oh no, you're cool, you're cool.
[00:22:11] And inside I was crying because I beat up a guy
[00:22:13] that I didn't and oh no, you're cool.
[00:22:16] And so then I understood a bully.
[00:22:18] I understood what they're gonna make me do
[00:22:20] if I don't make a choice, right?
[00:22:23] So I go through that, I go to the bathroom.
[00:22:27] Nick's, what was the guy named Nick?
[00:22:29] This guy named Chuck and this guy named Rich.
[00:22:31] I won't say their last names because they're all dead,
[00:22:33] but I don't really like those guys anyway.
[00:22:35] So I'm in there taking the leak and the guy comes in
[00:22:38] and say, what are you doing here?
[00:22:39] And I look up and it says, oh, seventh grade, right?
[00:22:43] It's innocence, right?
[00:22:45] The innocence.
[00:22:46] And I said, so who are you?
[00:22:49] I said, I'm Gilaz Panosa.
[00:22:51] Well yeah, I said, who are you guys?
[00:22:52] Well, we're here to beat the shit out of you.
[00:22:54] I'm like, come on man.
[00:22:58] I'm so little, I'm so little as about like this.
[00:23:01] I was like four foot, I was smaller than her.
[00:23:03] She shorter than Herbie Corral, Herbie Corral.
[00:23:07] That's why he and I are, we're good buddies,
[00:23:10] because we're both little guys.
[00:23:11] Cause we're little guys in the teams.
[00:23:12] For sure.
[00:23:13] And then there are little guys in the teams
[00:23:14] and big little guys like Herbie Corral's a big little guy.
[00:23:18] There are other ones that are,
[00:23:19] they're like you guys were shrunk down.
[00:23:21] I was a skinny guy, 120 pounds, carrying 90 pounds of gear
[00:23:26] up in the Macau.
[00:23:28] And when I was working with the Pruse
[00:23:31] and working with the Vietnamese SEALs,
[00:23:32] I carried an M60 with 800 rounds.
[00:23:35] So we went heavy on the border, right?
[00:23:37] So, I'm like, shoot.
[00:23:41] And so.
[00:23:42] So what happened to, so did you fight these guys?
[00:23:44] Well, so then what happened,
[00:23:45] this guy Bruce McDowell steps in, he was from Hawaii
[00:23:49] and he steps in and he goes, what's going on in here?
[00:23:51] And I'm going, those guys want to beat me up.
[00:23:54] And he goes, oh, he's, you see, hey guys,
[00:23:56] you're way too big for him.
[00:23:57] But the little neck, he looked at me, he's really cool.
[00:24:01] He says, if I stay here, you want to fight that little guy?
[00:24:06] And I'm already, I'm shaking, man.
[00:24:10] I got tears in my eyes.
[00:24:11] I'm like, I'm alone.
[00:24:12] And you're in seventh grade.
[00:24:13] I'm in seventh grade.
[00:24:14] I'm alone.
[00:24:16] And all the guys from God Street,
[00:24:18] we came to school together.
[00:24:20] We didn't realize that the classism was happening.
[00:24:23] There's classism and racism, right?
[00:24:25] Well, the classism took all of us poor people together, right?
[00:24:29] Didn't matter whether you were white or whatever,
[00:24:31] that was, they called our street Sin City.
[00:24:33] We didn't even know it to where we were already men.
[00:24:35] We didn't know that that's what they called our neighborhood.
[00:24:38] And so, hey, going, yeah.
[00:24:41] He says, well, okay.
[00:24:43] So I hit him with that move, man.
[00:24:44] High cries come around, boom, hit him,
[00:24:46] put him in the urinal.
[00:24:47] And next thing you know, I, outside warrior was working, man.
[00:24:52] It was high order, right?
[00:24:54] I love the word high order when we went into the teams, man.
[00:24:56] Cause that means your high order.
[00:24:58] It's a high order detonation, man.
[00:24:59] I was in it.
[00:25:00] I took him, I put his head in the toilet
[00:25:02] and I sat on his back and started flushing it.
[00:25:05] And that was screaming.
[00:25:06] You know, like when, when you, when you're in the cold water,
[00:25:10] that whole thing, you know, just keeping your shit together.
[00:25:14] Right?
[00:25:15] I'm screaming.
[00:25:16] Next thing I'm picked up out of the, off this guy,
[00:25:19] Bruce McDowell takes me over,
[00:25:21] takes me in the corner, it's a breeze.
[00:25:23] And I'm like, so you know,
[00:25:25] breeze, he tells those guys get the hell out of here.
[00:25:27] And I'm like, and so he says, Hey, he says, it's a calm.
[00:25:31] You know, it's come down like, breathe, I'm breathing.
[00:25:33] He says, Hey, I says, do you ever wrestle?
[00:25:37] I wrestle, my brother told me to wrestle and move,
[00:25:39] but he went in the Navy and I'm alone.
[00:25:42] He said, look, wait a minute, wait a minute.
[00:25:44] He says, you ever think about wrestling?
[00:25:46] We have a wrestling team here.
[00:25:48] I said, no.
[00:25:49] He said, well, and you, and you'd be wrestling guys,
[00:25:51] your size, not big guy, little guys, your size.
[00:25:54] He says, you ought to come out.
[00:25:55] Maybe.
[00:25:57] Right?
[00:25:57] So that, and that was the beginning
[00:25:59] of another evolution, right?
[00:26:01] So I went to wrestle,
[00:26:02] but I found out I was wrestling,
[00:26:05] I was wrestling for all the wrong reason.
[00:26:07] I was wrestling to learn how to fight,
[00:26:09] wrestling, to learn how to protect myself to wrestling.
[00:26:12] So I didn't have to, with the bully came,
[00:26:14] I didn't have to bow down to him,
[00:26:17] that I didn't have to serve anybody.
[00:26:20] Those seems like actually good reasons for me to wrestle.
[00:26:23] You said those are the wrong reasons.
[00:26:24] I don't know.
[00:26:25] As far as I'm concerned, I tell kids to wrestle all the time.
[00:26:27] And I tell them, you're going to be able to take care of
[00:26:28] yourself, you're going to get good shape.
[00:26:30] I'm like, those are good reasons.
[00:26:31] But I wasn't happy doing it.
[00:26:33] Do you know what I mean?
[00:26:34] Got it.
[00:26:35] There are kids that are happy.
[00:26:36] They love the sport.
[00:26:37] Now that was a two-time state champion.
[00:26:39] I took fourth one as a sophomore.
[00:26:40] Do I, everyone's got,
[00:26:41] hey, yeah, you know, run around all the stadium
[00:26:44] and everybody's side-fiving me.
[00:26:46] I'm like, well, there's one down.
[00:26:48] Next year's the next year.
[00:26:49] And every son of a gun, I have to wrestle.
[00:26:51] I'm going to kick the shit out of everybody
[00:26:53] until they know I'm there.
[00:26:55] And so that's the two things, right?
[00:26:58] Ego and heart and what you want, right?
[00:27:04] What do I do a lot of us winning the teams
[00:27:07] out of the ego thing?
[00:27:08] Those cats, they were the swimmers
[00:27:10] and all that kind of stuff.
[00:27:12] They were successful because they beat guys
[00:27:13] who were the same as them and they happen
[00:27:15] to have a little bit more talent.
[00:27:16] So they win.
[00:27:18] What was it?
[00:27:19] Ego is at heart.
[00:27:21] When you're a wrestler and you go out there
[00:27:22] and you're getting your ass beat every day,
[00:27:25] like I had so much respect for the kids
[00:27:27] that weren't as good as I was,
[00:27:28] but showed up for practice for me every day.
[00:27:31] And I'd make them hurt.
[00:27:33] I'd make them cry because that's where I was getting
[00:27:35] my stuff, right?
[00:27:36] My wrestling coach was a UDT guy, right?
[00:27:39] So what was his name?
[00:27:40] Harold Ashermbrenner.
[00:27:41] He helped start the museum in Fort Pierce.
[00:27:46] So was he a World War II guy or Korea guy?
[00:27:49] Okay.
[00:27:49] In the gap of Korea and Vietnam, right?
[00:27:52] Actually, Russa Campbell who wrote the book,
[00:27:54] Russa Campbell's called Seal Team, was his instructor.
[00:28:00] He didn't even know how to swim either.
[00:28:02] He had to walk on the bottom of the pool, carry him rocks.
[00:28:05] Totally learned how to swim.
[00:28:07] That's the other thing about the teams.
[00:28:08] A lot of these guys didn't, they didn't swim well.
[00:28:12] They swam long, but they didn't swim well.
[00:28:14] There were other guys that could,
[00:28:15] I was the number one swim pair without fins.
[00:28:17] You put fins on me, I went to number 10.
[00:28:20] And those guys with big legs, shit, they kicked up
[00:28:24] and they were number one.
[00:28:24] I'm out there freezing in the water.
[00:28:26] You know?
[00:28:27] But yeah.
[00:28:28] So you figured out about wrestling.
[00:28:31] And was there a wrestling team in seventh grade?
[00:28:34] You know, well, yeah.
[00:28:35] Okay, so you immediately or very soon after you,
[00:28:38] you started actually wrestling.
[00:28:40] Yeah, I actually started wrestling.
[00:28:42] And now you started to learn
[00:28:44] and you took to it really well, obviously.
[00:28:46] Yeah, I did.
[00:28:47] Yeah, and thinking of my brother,
[00:28:49] but there was always that thing, you know?
[00:28:51] And wait, what thing?
[00:28:54] The thing of I want to be able to protect myself,
[00:28:55] I want to be able to kick people's asses.
[00:28:57] And it was a little bit more ego driven.
[00:28:59] Survival.
[00:29:01] I was gonna say maybe just protection of,
[00:29:04] like you said, not wanting to bow,
[00:29:06] have to bow down to people.
[00:29:07] Right, yeah.
[00:29:09] So your brother had joined the Navy?
[00:29:13] And what year did he join the Navy?
[00:29:14] In 56.
[00:29:17] And on that wrestling, so he was on Boulder High
[00:29:18] wrestling team that I eventually went to,
[00:29:20] but he was kicking shit out of the doctor's son.
[00:29:23] So they said he had a heart murmur.
[00:29:25] And what they wouldn't let him wrestle?
[00:29:27] They wouldn't let him wrestle.
[00:29:28] But when my brother went into the Navy,
[00:29:31] he had no heart murmur.
[00:29:32] My brother was a corpsman.
[00:29:34] He finished up over here with SEAL team, right?
[00:29:37] And in Vietnam, he was working in Medevacs.
[00:29:41] A couple SEAL team guys got hit.
[00:29:42] I'm there at the same, we were both Vietnam at the same time,
[00:29:45] right in 69.
[00:29:46] And he was 67 or 68 and in part of 69.
[00:29:52] And he's sitting there checking all these guys out,
[00:29:53] you know, the helicopter bring him in.
[00:29:54] He said, I started looking at him.
[00:29:56] I couldn't tell anybody, I looked alike, right?
[00:29:58] He says, then I thought, what the hell am I doing?
[00:30:00] Looking at these, my brother's like this.
[00:30:02] He's a Kirby Hurrell, you know, he's a little guy.
[00:30:07] All these guys, you know, the guys,
[00:30:08] because it wasn't just the guys were wounded,
[00:30:10] but they actually did the extrication, right?
[00:30:13] So they just, they flew him out.
[00:30:15] So he was a corpsman in it, it got him.
[00:30:17] Did you, so did you, at what point did you
[00:30:20] start thinking about joining the Navy?
[00:30:22] Well, my brother went in the Navy.
[00:30:25] And so here I am, when I graduated,
[00:30:28] when I came back from Vietnam,
[00:30:31] I'd been back about 10 years,
[00:30:32] thought of Harold Ashenbrenner.
[00:30:35] So I called him up.
[00:30:37] Hey, do you remember, I was a 103 pound state champ, man.
[00:30:40] 95 on 103 pounds.
[00:30:42] When I went in the teams, I weighed about 112 pounds, 115.
[00:30:46] A little.
[00:30:46] That's crazy.
[00:30:48] And there's still two guys littler than me,
[00:30:50] the Waller Wander brothers, they're in team two
[00:30:52] or something like that.
[00:30:54] And there was like Mike Walsh, he wrote a book.
[00:30:57] Mike Walsh is about like me, but he's,
[00:31:01] he's about like I am now when he went through.
[00:31:03] I weigh more than I did then.
[00:31:05] You were 112 pounds in buds.
[00:31:08] Yeah.
[00:31:09] That's freaking crazy.
[00:31:10] I was 120 pounds when I got burned in Vietnam
[00:31:14] after the water and all that stuff.
[00:31:17] Carrying 90 pounds of gear, trying to keep up with everybody.
[00:31:20] But I was selling them water.
[00:31:22] Because I drink water and they're sweating and stuff.
[00:31:25] You didn't need any water.
[00:31:26] I didn't need water and wrestlers don't need water.
[00:31:29] Then those days we, you know, we drank,
[00:31:31] if you didn't drink any water,
[00:31:33] and we took salt tablets, right, before practice.
[00:31:35] All this stuff to kill you, right?
[00:31:36] Yeah.
[00:31:37] So I had a big triangular water bath,
[00:31:39] you know, so I'd sit there and we'd be operating,
[00:31:42] ask me, you got some water?
[00:31:43] Yeah.
[00:31:44] And they were all outranked me.
[00:31:46] So I'd have them in the water and they'd take drinks
[00:31:48] and they'd count the swallows.
[00:31:49] One, two, three bucks, five bucks, 10 bucks.
[00:31:53] You know, so I'd make money on patrol.
[00:31:55] And then I'd borrow money from them
[00:31:58] because I didn't have any money when we were in Pennsylvania.
[00:32:00] It kind of balanced that, you know?
[00:32:03] But so you get to high school.
[00:32:05] Is, did you play any other sports besides?
[00:32:07] Cross country.
[00:32:08] Okay, so you were a good runner.
[00:32:10] I was a good runner.
[00:32:10] I was too light to play football
[00:32:12] on a late weight football team,
[00:32:13] but when we played in the green field,
[00:32:15] I mean, just no pads, no nothing.
[00:32:17] I was one of the fastest runners.
[00:32:20] And I'd hit you so hard I'd almost knocked myself out.
[00:32:23] So they didn't want to come around the corner of a guy.
[00:32:25] I don't want them to come past me.
[00:32:27] And we would have, we would play football
[00:32:30] and that football would eventually turn into a fight.
[00:32:33] You're gonna fight somebody, right?
[00:32:34] And they wouldn't with me too much
[00:32:36] because I was a good wrestler, you know?
[00:32:38] But, yeah.
[00:32:40] Are you getting good grades?
[00:32:41] I was struggling with my grades.
[00:32:44] I didn't understand, and that's why when my kids,
[00:32:46] when they're growing up, I says, how do you teach?
[00:32:48] Because I found I'm more of a hands-on learner, right?
[00:32:51] A visual learner.
[00:32:53] So concepts that I would get in my mind would be kind of hard.
[00:32:56] I found that out when I went through training.
[00:32:59] All the shit I needed, everything I needed to know,
[00:33:01] the dive physiology, anatomy and all that.
[00:33:04] I was kind of struggling with that, right?
[00:33:05] But I got it because I, it was the body, right?
[00:33:08] Triceps, biceps, heart and all that.
[00:33:10] That was, I dug that, right?
[00:33:12] But the demolitions, right?
[00:33:14] Mark 23, Mod 1, Bangler, torpedo, HBX,
[00:33:18] rate of fire is this and that.
[00:33:19] I'm going, oh shoot, took the first test.
[00:33:21] I already gone through, I already gone through Hell Week.
[00:33:24] I already went through dive phase.
[00:33:26] I already went through everything.
[00:33:28] Hell Week was a trip, but I learned that because,
[00:33:31] you know, Crawford?
[00:33:34] Okay, so I'm sitting there struggling.
[00:33:37] Senior class?
[00:33:38] Yeah, he's my class.
[00:33:39] Craw Daddy.
[00:33:40] Hey, we were in the same boat crew in Hell Week.
[00:33:42] He told me a story about Hell Week that I did,
[00:33:44] that I didn't know that I did, but he remembered that I didn't.
[00:33:47] He was my ex-so when I checked into team one.
[00:33:48] Oh really?
[00:33:49] Yup.
[00:33:50] I love him.
[00:33:51] I think I might even given him that name, Craw Dad.
[00:33:52] I even changed the other guys name from John to Jonah.
[00:33:55] But he still goes by Jonah.
[00:33:58] But yeah, I, he said, what's going on?
[00:34:03] I said, man, and I'm sad.
[00:34:05] Two guys died out there before.
[00:34:08] It's San Clemente in my training class, right?
[00:34:10] Are these the guys that drowned, get hung up on a,
[00:34:14] on a Japskoli?
[00:34:16] Yeah, Greckel McCall.
[00:34:18] So yeah, I said, what's going on?
[00:34:19] And he says, hey, they're gonna drop me.
[00:34:22] I said, why?
[00:34:22] So I can't, the demolition's dead.
[00:34:25] So he came over and just piece of paper,
[00:34:28] he says, okay, right down, man.
[00:34:29] And there was this old barracks, man.
[00:34:31] We had to, under a blanket with a flashlight.
[00:34:35] Mark 133, Mod 1, 133, Mod 2, Bangalore, Torpedo, H,
[00:34:41] all of the demolitions that we were gonna be tested on,
[00:34:44] I wrote them every night for a week,
[00:34:47] every night on a piece of paper.
[00:34:49] Said, that's what, that's what it's all about.
[00:34:54] I said, okay.
[00:34:55] And then what they were used for, right?
[00:34:57] So I go take my test.
[00:34:59] I said, okay, you guys got one hour to get your test done.
[00:35:02] So I grabbed my piece of paper
[00:35:03] and I start writing it out.
[00:35:05] Instructing it by Spinoza, he says, you got an hour.
[00:35:07] I said, I know, you got an hour.
[00:35:10] I said, I know.
[00:35:13] Just looking at the fucking, then he takes off, right?
[00:35:15] And I got it done.
[00:35:16] So then what I could do is I could take that paper,
[00:35:19] I could look at it, see the question, read the question,
[00:35:23] look at the answers, answers right there.
[00:35:26] But for me to get it, you know?
[00:35:29] And then when I went to college,
[00:35:30] you wanna, well, that's a whole another, that's later,
[00:35:33] but I didn't believe, I graduated with the 3.95.
[00:35:38] I wanted to be a teacher, right?
[00:35:39] But there's reasons I wasn't a teacher,
[00:35:41] but so I understood that was my way of learning.
[00:35:45] But it took, so in high school, you weren't doing great.
[00:35:47] No, no.
[00:35:48] But you graduated, what year did you graduate high school?
[00:35:51] The 66, 65, and then I went to Navy in 66.
[00:35:56] What'd you do in the, in between time?
[00:35:59] In between time, I had a wrestling scholarship
[00:36:01] at the University of Northern Colorado.
[00:36:03] Okay.
[00:36:04] So, well actually, Northeastern Junior College.
[00:36:06] So I was wrestling, right?
[00:36:08] I went home on break, walked into this bar,
[00:36:12] and one of the wrestlers that was one of my heroes,
[00:36:14] and he was Johnny Manzanera, it's from Lafayette.
[00:36:16] He was just, went to Junior College, he was a tough guy.
[00:36:20] So, but go back to Herald, right?
[00:36:24] Yes, we said-
[00:36:25] This was your UDT wrestling coach.
[00:36:25] Yeah, my UDT coach, he says, did you ever go into teams?
[00:36:28] I said, yeah, he says, do you remember what I asked you
[00:36:30] what you were gonna do when we were in the wrestling room?
[00:36:32] You know, like when you're wrestling,
[00:36:33] you all just kinda laying around.
[00:36:34] I said, no.
[00:36:36] He said, I asked you, what are you gonna do
[00:36:38] when you get out of high school?
[00:36:41] And you said, well, I go into the Navy.
[00:36:44] And then I asked you, coach asked me,
[00:36:46] what makes you think you're man enough to be a frogman?
[00:36:49] And I told him, coach, if you're man enough to be a frogman,
[00:36:53] I know I'm man enough to be a frogman.
[00:36:55] Damn.
[00:36:56] You're just one of those things, right?
[00:36:58] You're just one of those things.
[00:37:00] And so, yeah, I-
[00:37:03] So you said you were home on break
[00:37:05] from your wrestling scholarship.
[00:37:07] Yeah.
[00:37:08] And you said, did you even went to a bar?
[00:37:09] Went to a bar, it was called Grandma's Bar.
[00:37:11] And we all have to tell them,
[00:37:13] but where are you going?
[00:37:14] I'm going to Grandma's.
[00:37:14] They all thought we were going to Miss Toledo's house, right?
[00:37:16] We're all going to a bar sneaking in, 17 years old.
[00:37:19] But I was in college, right, as a freshman.
[00:37:24] Walked in and I see my buddy, Ronnie Manzaneras,
[00:37:27] saying, hey man, how you doing?
[00:37:28] From Lafayette, they used to go, wrestlers from Lewisville,
[00:37:31] Lafayette would go to Boulder and we'd wrestle,
[00:37:33] because we're all in three different leagues.
[00:37:34] And we'd prepare ourselves for the state tournament, right?
[00:37:36] Because we're all, and that's when we really knew
[00:37:39] that we were state champions,
[00:37:40] because we could whip those guys.
[00:37:41] And they were state champions, 1A and 2A.
[00:37:44] So I said, I'm the real champ, you know?
[00:37:47] And so, yeah, it was,
[00:37:51] how you doing, man?
[00:37:52] He says, start crying.
[00:37:54] I said, wait, what's up, man?
[00:37:55] You okay?
[00:37:57] He said, they killed my brother.
[00:37:59] I said, what?
[00:38:00] They killed Johnny, he's just a big red one, man.
[00:38:03] Small arms, you know.
[00:38:07] And they grabbed, there was the first time
[00:38:08] that I'd lost somebody from my family.
[00:38:11] From, you know, when you talk about family, it's just big.
[00:38:15] And from Lewisville, Lafayette, Latinos,
[00:38:20] and I hugged him and we cried.
[00:38:22] And then we sat down and,
[00:38:23] let me know what beer, I said, yeah, and pretty soon,
[00:38:26] he was telling the stories about his brother.
[00:38:28] And we were all laughing and crying and everything.
[00:38:31] So then I went, after Christmas break,
[00:38:33] I went back to school.
[00:38:35] And I was wrestling real well on it,
[00:38:36] I was doing real well.
[00:38:39] And when I went, it was just like I had to tell the coach,
[00:38:43] I said, I'm not coming back.
[00:38:45] He said, why not?
[00:38:45] I said, I can't.
[00:38:47] If you think about, I was raised when President Kennedy
[00:38:50] got assassinated, right?
[00:38:52] That's not what your country can do for you,
[00:38:53] but what you can do for your country.
[00:38:55] I always felt that my brother was serving in the military.
[00:38:57] My uncles were in World War II, right?
[00:39:01] My uncles that were in Korea.
[00:39:03] And we all served in the military.
[00:39:07] And so then it was like, what am I doing here?
[00:39:12] Wrestling, which wasn't real.
[00:39:16] Trying to get laid and my friends are dying.
[00:39:19] So I said, I'm joining the Navy,
[00:39:23] but there was the other side of that.
[00:39:24] My brother had gone around the world.
[00:39:26] I'm going, I wanna go around the world before,
[00:39:28] because I'd taken the test, you know, UDT,
[00:39:31] you know, in Buchan that I passed all that.
[00:39:35] But I wanted to, I wanted to party.
[00:39:39] Oh, I got stuck on a ship in a lung beat.
[00:39:41] That's where I got that, right?
[00:39:43] 17, 18 years old.
[00:39:45] And so wait, so you get to boot camp?
[00:39:51] So get to boot camp.
[00:39:53] And you, so you had the plans of going into UDT?
[00:39:56] I had the thoughts about going UDT.
[00:39:58] Yeah, I wanted to be a frog man.
[00:40:03] Because of my wrestling coach,
[00:40:04] because he's talking about the cool shit, man,
[00:40:06] blowing stuff up and, you know,
[00:40:08] dropping pickup and jumping out of airplanes.
[00:40:11] And I'm going, whoa, that's,
[00:40:13] and then the one thing I like best of all of it, man,
[00:40:16] you get to wear aviator shades,
[00:40:18] work out, lay in the sun,
[00:40:19] and get to wear swimming trunks and chicks dig ya.
[00:40:23] So I'm going, oh, I could do that.
[00:40:25] I used to say, man, I used to be a 35 year old man
[00:40:28] and didn't put a sugar on at work,
[00:40:29] unless it was like inspection day, man.
[00:40:31] We just never, why, you know, pair of shorts.
[00:40:34] That's it, man, pair of shorts and jungle boots.
[00:40:36] Live in the dream.
[00:40:38] And we had a blue and gold, man.
[00:40:40] We had the original blue and golds.
[00:40:42] Guys would wear the blue and golds off duty.
[00:40:45] Then they'd say, you gotta be wearing lots of uniform, man.
[00:40:48] But we would wear whatever we wanted to wear, you know.
[00:40:51] So you take the screening test to go to Bud's?
[00:40:54] Yeah. In boot camp.
[00:40:56] I took the test in, I was the only guy
[00:40:59] out of my whole company that passed.
[00:41:00] One other guy went with me, but he had false teeth,
[00:41:02] so he about drowned.
[00:41:03] He didn't make it.
[00:41:05] So then when, so then when I really decided to do it,
[00:41:09] cause I was on a ship, man,
[00:41:10] I got tired of as a machinist mate.
[00:41:13] Stinky, we did our sea trials and all that stuff
[00:41:16] in the hole and everything like that.
[00:41:18] But even then I was doing chin ups on the steam deals
[00:41:22] and I was doing push ups.
[00:41:23] I'd go work out by myself on, why are you doing that stuff?
[00:41:29] Part of it was the wrestling thing.
[00:41:30] Part of it is, right?
[00:41:32] It's always there.
[00:41:33] That's, that's a part of it was your brother
[00:41:36] hanging you off of a door when you were four years old.
[00:41:39] You pulled off some, there was part of that.
[00:41:41] I mean, it's stuck, you know?
[00:41:43] And, and, and if you think about it,
[00:41:44] when you're doing that stuff,
[00:41:46] that is the time that you're revealing yourself to yourself,
[00:41:50] that that little boy, you always,
[00:41:51] and when I'm doing that, even now,
[00:41:53] what worked out over, over the amphibes,
[00:41:58] I can, I can, I, I, I feel the young boy.
[00:42:01] I feel the little boy coming up.
[00:42:03] I feel that, that spirit of peace that I have,
[00:42:05] that is young and that is strong.
[00:42:08] Even, even when I got a jacked up shoulder,
[00:42:10] I got a left knee replacement, my ankle,
[00:42:12] I'm looking at that, you know?
[00:42:14] It's, and so, yeah, it was,
[00:42:20] it was, I was looking out the end of that ship
[00:42:24] and here come these guys swimming by
[00:42:25] cause I'm sitting on that ship, seeing what the,
[00:42:27] Where was that ship stationed?
[00:42:28] Well, it was stationed on Long Beach.
[00:42:30] Okay, so you were in Long Beach.
[00:42:31] But we did sea trials and we pulled into San Diego.
[00:42:33] God.
[00:42:33] So we're over on 36, over by the bay,
[00:42:35] when guys used to do the training in the bay.
[00:42:38] And I'm sitting looking out there and stinky
[00:42:40] and everything, we had to help the board them
[00:42:41] and blow the tubes so we're all black.
[00:42:43] And I looked and here come these guys swimming by.
[00:42:46] You know, they're heading to a keg too.
[00:42:48] Yeah.
[00:42:49] Who are those guys?
[00:42:50] You know, all those UDT guys, I'm like,
[00:42:52] oh, hell with this.
[00:42:54] So I put in for it and it might,
[00:42:55] XO went, let me go cause I'm too little.
[00:42:57] Or you're too little, you'll never make it.
[00:42:59] God, I hated that, I hated that sabotaging belief
[00:43:02] from the time I was a kid.
[00:43:03] You're too small, right? You're too dark.
[00:43:06] Even when I was wrestling in high school,
[00:43:08] my wrestling coach took a team to Japan.
[00:43:10] I was a two time state champ.
[00:43:11] They didn't take me or a guy named Joe Silva, right?
[00:43:14] And I said, well, why? What's the deal?
[00:43:17] Well, Gil, you really don't look like
[00:43:19] what the Japanese think Americans look like.
[00:43:23] I'm like, huh?
[00:43:25] I didn't understand that, right?
[00:43:27] What?
[00:43:28] And so the sabotaging belief like that, right?
[00:43:31] Is it ego or what is it?
[00:43:33] But it is something that says, uh-uh.
[00:43:35] You're not gonna make me beat up somebody.
[00:43:37] You're not gonna make me do those things.
[00:43:39] Because that little boy that's in there knows who he is.
[00:43:42] Right? It's being revealed.
[00:43:44] It's being revealed.
[00:43:45] That was part of that pain of hearing that was revealing.
[00:43:49] Right?
[00:43:50] So I'm looking at these guys,
[00:43:51] so I'm gonna do that.
[00:43:53] And that coach, I mean, the XO said,
[00:43:55] you're too little or whatever.
[00:43:57] Next thing you know, there I am over at the training.
[00:44:00] But I had to do this.
[00:44:02] They took us, they says,
[00:44:03] once you go down to a hyperbaric chamber test,
[00:44:05] it's okay, I did that in Long Beach.
[00:44:08] Do the PT test again, the run, the swim and all that stuff.
[00:44:11] And then we want you to go down to the tugboat.
[00:44:13] And now there's a diver down there, class A diver.
[00:44:17] That's all right, so I go down there.
[00:44:19] And there's a chief.
[00:44:20] No, those old chiefs, the diver chiefs, right?
[00:44:22] The hard-hand helmet.
[00:44:24] What you doing, kid?
[00:44:24] I said, I don't know.
[00:44:25] They told me to come down.
[00:44:26] I wanna go on UDT.
[00:44:29] Oh yeah, come on over here.
[00:44:30] Sit down.
[00:44:31] Put that, the big old boots, right?
[00:44:33] The big old heavy boots.
[00:44:34] And they folded all the,
[00:44:37] was the class one dive suit.
[00:44:39] Yeah, the old school dive suit.
[00:44:40] Whatever they call it, you know.
[00:44:42] And then they put the helmet on me.
[00:44:43] I'm sitting like this.
[00:44:46] I go over there, go to the ladder, go down.
[00:44:48] He says, and just walk around down there.
[00:44:49] There's some eels over by some rock.
[00:44:51] Just kind of make yourself at home.
[00:44:52] And we'll talk to you, check you out.
[00:44:54] I said, oh.
[00:44:55] This was your first dive ever?
[00:44:56] Ever, for somebody I've ever been underwater.
[00:44:59] I didn't know anything.
[00:45:01] So I go down and he's like, how you doing now?
[00:45:03] And I said, well, I'm doing fine.
[00:45:04] He says, everything good?
[00:45:06] I said, yeah.
[00:45:07] So, you know, there's a water coming in my left leg, you know.
[00:45:09] Oh yeah, don't worry about it.
[00:45:10] It says, water will come in your left leg.
[00:45:12] I said, all right.
[00:45:13] He says, let us know if it goes into your right leg.
[00:45:15] So a little bit, I'm still walking around.
[00:45:17] It was 15 minutes, right?
[00:45:18] So I'm walking around and he goes in my left leg.
[00:45:20] I'm in my right leg and I'm going,
[00:45:22] hey, you know this, so, this, this suit's leaking.
[00:45:25] Yeah, okay, we know it.
[00:45:26] Don't worry about it.
[00:45:27] Let us know if the water gets up to your chest.
[00:45:29] I didn't know anything about pressure, right?
[00:45:31] The pressure in the helmet's not going to go any deeper.
[00:45:33] I'm going, I said, hey, you know, the water's up on my neck.
[00:45:37] Nothing.
[00:45:38] Nobody talks about, hey, the water is up to my neck.
[00:45:42] Maybe you guys might think about pulling me up.
[00:45:45] Nothing.
[00:45:47] So then it was like, I'm going to die.
[00:45:52] So I went over to some rocks.
[00:45:53] I laid back on the rocks and I reached back.
[00:45:55] I thought, well, if I can grab the ropes,
[00:45:57] if I can grab the hose, I'll pull myself up.
[00:45:59] But they had it tended, so there's no way I could,
[00:46:03] I could reach it.
[00:46:05] So in my mind, Hail Mary full of grace,
[00:46:07] the Lord is with thee, I'm going to die.
[00:46:10] And then the next thing is, it's quiet.
[00:46:12] I didn't, I didn't pray it out loud.
[00:46:14] He pulled me up.
[00:46:15] Yeah, you pass kid.
[00:46:17] So about three days later,
[00:46:19] and then it already had my orders and I show up at the area.
[00:46:22] So show up the area and I look at guys like Echo
[00:46:24] and look at guys like Jaco,
[00:46:27] I'm going the same question like, what the,
[00:46:30] what am I doing here?
[00:46:32] Right?
[00:46:33] I'm just a little guy.
[00:46:34] I'm walking around here and I saw another guy,
[00:46:37] Latino Gregor Ligar, see I looked at him and he said,
[00:46:39] hey man, how you doing?
[00:46:40] He says, two little guys.
[00:46:43] Good, where you from man?
[00:46:44] Some from Fresno, some from Colorado.
[00:46:46] He goes, you speak Spanish?
[00:46:47] He said, no, me neither.
[00:46:49] It's just, we're like, you know, but we're the only two.
[00:46:52] And that was in 41, right?
[00:46:54] And so we've been getting-
[00:46:56] So you're 112 pounds.
[00:46:58] Yeah.
[00:46:58] That's freaking crazy.
[00:46:59] Well give me the advantage, 120 pounds.
[00:47:01] Even 120, man.
[00:47:03] Cause I'm just, there's so much physical stuff
[00:47:04] they have to do with like carrying logs, carrying boats.
[00:47:06] Like, that's-
[00:47:08] And so people would sit there and say,
[00:47:09] like I was under the boat for a while.
[00:47:11] And then they go, you two little guys,
[00:47:13] me and Gregor Ligar are gonna see you, we're in front, right?
[00:47:15] And then they got two medium sized guys
[00:47:17] and then there's two tall guys.
[00:47:18] So our boat was like this.
[00:47:20] So going up Mount Serobachi was cool
[00:47:22] because it stays level.
[00:47:24] But when you come down the other side,
[00:47:27] the first three times it wasn't good because we would crash.
[00:47:30] And then we was like, man, we really gotta run fast.
[00:47:32] I mean, we just, it was sprinting down hill
[00:47:34] in order for us to make it, you know?
[00:47:37] So there was a disadvantage.
[00:47:37] So what's your introduction to Bud's like?
[00:47:39] Or it's UDT trade.
[00:47:42] How do you guys say that?
[00:47:43] UDTRA.
[00:47:44] UDTRA.
[00:47:46] What was your introduction?
[00:47:48] When I first got there?
[00:47:49] Yeah, like you got there.
[00:47:51] But when I first got there,
[00:47:52] is everybody just kind of wandered around.
[00:47:54] You know, we'd like, this was in 41, right?
[00:47:58] In 41.
[00:47:59] This is class 41.
[00:48:00] Class 41.
[00:48:01] And this is gonna share something with you
[00:48:03] that was really painful for me in 41.
[00:48:05] And so there's another little guy, his big mouth, man.
[00:48:11] Another guy, and then there's another guy, black cat.
[00:48:15] Beautiful.
[00:48:15] Man, look at him going, Jesus, cramity, man.
[00:48:19] And there was another little guy, Mel Tanaka, he graduated.
[00:48:22] He's a team's.
[00:48:25] And Artie Reese, I don't know if you've ever heard of him.
[00:48:29] He's another little guy.
[00:48:31] And so...
[00:48:33] You guys had a little mafia.
[00:48:34] Little guy mafia.
[00:48:36] There were little guys.
[00:48:37] But they all weighed me by about 10 pounds, 15 pounds.
[00:48:40] But it was, I didn't have any focus.
[00:48:50] I was just along for the ride,
[00:48:53] doing whatever they were gonna do.
[00:48:55] And so it was like, there was no like this prep stuff.
[00:49:00] It was like, we got there for one week,
[00:49:02] everybody kind of got to know each other.
[00:49:04] The second week, we're running.
[00:49:06] We're in class, we're in training.
[00:49:08] And we're doing all that whole physical thing,
[00:49:11] getting us ready for Hell Week, right?
[00:49:13] And so during Hell Week, it was the last day of Hell Week
[00:49:18] before you secure.
[00:49:18] It's a Friday afternoon.
[00:49:19] It was a Saturday, they secure, right?
[00:49:23] I think they secured on Saturday.
[00:49:24] When Hell Week is over, you mean?
[00:49:26] Yeah.
[00:49:27] It's been Friday and it's been Saturday,
[00:49:28] depending on like what era?
[00:49:30] Well, it was Friday.
[00:49:31] And then that Friday night, they do a paddle,
[00:49:35] and then they secure Sunday, right?
[00:49:37] So that we were doing a swim.
[00:49:40] So this is in Hell Week?
[00:49:41] This is in Hell Week.
[00:49:42] Okay.
[00:49:43] We were doing a swim.
[00:49:46] Down and back, down and back.
[00:49:50] And when I got, me and Greg Grigory Lee got out,
[00:49:52] we got, these guys are getting out of the water.
[00:49:54] I said, all right.
[00:49:55] So I'm glad too, cause it was cold.
[00:49:57] We get out of the water,
[00:49:58] when we get out of the water, they're chief Allen.
[00:50:01] He says, okay, if and quitters over here.
[00:50:04] And I'm like, well, I didn't quit.
[00:50:06] He says, you're out of the water.
[00:50:07] I just, yeah.
[00:50:08] He said, get back in the water.
[00:50:09] By that time, I was cramped up.
[00:50:11] There were like about 60 guys got out.
[00:50:13] I mean, almost the whole class got out.
[00:50:16] And so I said, well, I didn't quit.
[00:50:19] He says, get in the water.
[00:50:20] And I went, I couldn't, I didn't know that if I'd got back
[00:50:23] in the water, that I would have felt warm.
[00:50:27] I didn't know that.
[00:50:29] So I went with everybody else.
[00:50:30] So that night, that was Saturday night,
[00:50:33] I could see them coming around for the last paddle.
[00:50:35] And I looked out the back window
[00:50:38] and I just start crying.
[00:50:40] I said, I didn't quit, man.
[00:50:42] So I went back to the instructor's check.
[00:50:45] And there was no bell.
[00:50:46] It was on the door.
[00:50:49] Espinosa reported, anyone speak to you chief?
[00:50:51] Chief Allen.
[00:50:53] And so what do you want Espinosa?
[00:50:55] I said, chief, I didn't quit.
[00:50:57] I said, got out with everybody, but I didn't quit.
[00:51:00] I says, you fucking quit.
[00:51:02] I said, I didn't quit.
[00:51:04] I said, I won't back in.
[00:51:04] He says, you can't get back in.
[00:51:07] I said, I gotta get back in.
[00:51:09] He said, I'm gonna tell you this.
[00:51:11] He says, there's only one way that you may have a chance.
[00:51:13] He says, you gotta go talk to the captain,
[00:51:15] Captain Myers, command, all I am, Fibbase, right?
[00:51:18] If the whole command and talk to him,
[00:51:20] maybe you might have a chance.
[00:51:22] He's by doubt.
[00:51:23] So what day of hell week was this?
[00:51:25] It was the last day of hell week.
[00:51:27] We'd already gone through hell week.
[00:51:28] We've already gone through all the rolling around
[00:51:31] and all that bullshit.
[00:51:32] So you're done with five days of hell week?
[00:51:34] We were in the sixth day of hell week.
[00:51:36] So it's pretty much over?
[00:51:38] It's pretty much over.
[00:51:39] It was the last evolution.
[00:51:40] It was the swim.
[00:51:42] And then we get in boats and then we paddle.
[00:51:45] Right?
[00:51:46] It was late in the afternoon, probably about five
[00:51:47] or six o'clock at night.
[00:51:49] Just like out here, starts, the sun starts coming down.
[00:51:53] So you guys finished the swim?
[00:51:57] Well, those guys that finished the swim,
[00:51:59] those guys that were with me that I was with, we were out.
[00:52:02] We're all quitters, right?
[00:52:05] I couldn't, I said, I didn't quit in here, right?
[00:52:09] So I went and I told you, I said, I didn't quit.
[00:52:12] He still was doing, he says, get the fuck out of here.
[00:52:16] So I went back to the barracks and I was broken, man,
[00:52:20] because I wanted to be a frog man.
[00:52:22] And so the next, that was a, that was Saturday morning,
[00:52:25] Sunday came and all the guys in the class
[00:52:28] were barely walking and they're sitting there looking at me,
[00:52:31] you know, and I'm looking at them and like,
[00:52:35] and I'm sure they were saying, I fucking quit her, you know?
[00:52:38] And I don't really want to say that word, but that,
[00:52:42] so that next day I put on my dress blues, man.
[00:52:47] I go to, so guys say, hey, Espy, where you going?
[00:52:49] I said, I'm getting back into training.
[00:52:51] So I went, got breakfast, went over to the,
[00:52:54] that knock on the door, oh well, we go in
[00:52:58] and these other guys say, we'll go with you, right?
[00:53:01] About 20 guys go with me.
[00:53:04] Crothead knows this story.
[00:53:06] 20 guys go with me.
[00:53:07] These are guys from your class?
[00:53:08] The guys that had made it.
[00:53:10] No, that had quit.
[00:53:11] Okay.
[00:53:12] All the quitters, right?
[00:53:13] All the guys that had made it to that pace of hell week
[00:53:17] and there were even some guys in 41 that quit after hell week.
[00:53:19] And so forget it.
[00:53:21] See people, it's just the training, man.
[00:53:24] It's not the real world ops.
[00:53:26] So when people talk about, oh, going to frog man,
[00:53:28] and oh yeah, I'm a, I did hell week and all that bullshit.
[00:53:31] But you go, then you still got to do world ops.
[00:53:34] That's, that's what they don't,
[00:53:35] that's what they don't tell you about.
[00:53:36] That's what you don't see.
[00:53:37] That's what the hero bullshit is bullshit.
[00:53:40] But when you get out like Roger Hayden does a trip with UDT,
[00:53:43] gets shot, gets a bronze star from there.
[00:53:45] Then he goes to SEAL team and they look at him and say,
[00:53:48] hey, new guy, huh?
[00:53:51] He's like, because when I met him, he was,
[00:53:54] those sons of bitches in SEALs, he said,
[00:53:56] they sit there because I'm a UDT guy.
[00:53:58] I didn't do anything.
[00:53:59] And you know, and you know, Roger, so he's the son.
[00:54:02] You had to have some big balls to call Roger Hayden,
[00:54:04] new guy.
[00:54:05] Yeah, he was a new guy.
[00:54:06] Well, he was.
[00:54:07] He was a new guy.
[00:54:08] I'll tell you something more about that later on.
[00:54:10] But so I'm in there, Kaepernick walks in.
[00:54:14] So did these 20 guys that came with you,
[00:54:16] did they also want to get back into training?
[00:54:18] Yes.
[00:54:19] So they all come with me, right?
[00:54:22] Skipper walks in, we're waiting, told them,
[00:54:26] you know what we wanted?
[00:54:28] He goes back out the one day for five days.
[00:54:32] He never talked to us, never acknowledged us, nothing.
[00:54:35] So from 20 to 30 guys, people said,
[00:54:38] fuck it, they ain't doing this.
[00:54:40] They're gone, right?
[00:54:42] At the end of the end of that week, there were six of us.
[00:54:46] Me, Schellenberger, Moe, Steele, Garcia, right?
[00:54:51] And McGee.
[00:54:52] So the next week, that Friday, he had us come in.
[00:54:59] We came in, he said, what do you want?
[00:55:01] I said, I looked at the guys, I looked at them and said,
[00:55:04] I didn't quit.
[00:55:06] So what about you guys?
[00:55:07] And they just looked at me and was like,
[00:55:10] I didn't quit either, right?
[00:55:12] Six of us.
[00:55:13] Says, well, we wanted to get back into the next class.
[00:55:18] Get out of my office.
[00:55:19] So we leave.
[00:55:20] Weekend.
[00:55:21] So the next week, I show up with the guys,
[00:55:24] we'll be doing this, because we're going back.
[00:55:27] So we go back Monday.
[00:55:29] He comes in the whole day.
[00:55:32] We sit there, he walks in, walks out, walks in, leaves.
[00:55:35] And then he comes in the evening, he says, okay, he says,
[00:55:39] I'll see you Friday.
[00:55:40] Don't come in, be, see you Friday.
[00:55:42] So that was another week.
[00:55:43] We came in that Friday.
[00:55:45] He said, I talked to your instructors.
[00:55:48] I told him who you were.
[00:55:50] I asked him about what went down
[00:55:52] and they're willing to give you a chance.
[00:55:55] But I have a condition.
[00:55:57] We're like, okay.
[00:55:59] He says, one of you quit or get hurt.
[00:56:03] For any reason, you're all gone.
[00:56:08] So I'm like, I looked at my guys.
[00:56:13] I looked at my guys, I said, look guys, this is important.
[00:56:21] If you don't want to do this, don't do it
[00:56:24] because I got to do it, right?
[00:56:27] I don't want to, I had a hard time being a loser.
[00:56:31] I had a hard time letting guys,
[00:56:33] you know what they did, even when I was getting beaten up,
[00:56:36] the inside warriors working and going,
[00:56:38] now you're going to figure it out.
[00:56:39] You're going to take care of this.
[00:56:41] And I wanted the chance to push it all the way, right?
[00:56:46] And it was like, no, we're in.
[00:56:48] We all agreed, right?
[00:56:50] So the first day of 42, first day of 42,
[00:56:54] Oliver comes out, García, Schellenberger,
[00:56:59] Steele, McGee and Moe, Lester Moe.
[00:57:01] He was the one who got,
[00:57:02] one out of our class that got killed.
[00:57:04] Second class torpedo man.
[00:57:07] Out of the six of us, two of us became SEALs.
[00:57:09] We were drafted into SEAL team.
[00:57:11] We didn't go UDT, like you used to have to go to UDT training.
[00:57:15] And then you go to do tours of UDT
[00:57:17] and then you volunteer for SEAL, right?
[00:57:19] So did you go, did you re-class up?
[00:57:22] Did you start with a brand new class?
[00:57:24] Yeah.
[00:57:24] So you went all the way back through first phase again?
[00:57:26] Back through how we could do?
[00:57:27] Start all over and here they are.
[00:57:28] We're up there in front, we're front and center.
[00:57:30] They said about face, facing the class.
[00:57:32] These motherfuckers are quitters.
[00:57:34] Don't walk to them, don't talk to them,
[00:57:36] don't be around them, don't hang with them
[00:57:38] because that's who they are.
[00:57:40] So everybody's just kinda looking,
[00:57:41] the only cats in 42, right?
[00:57:44] And so they put us in the same boat crew.
[00:57:46] And it was miserable, man.
[00:57:48] I mean, it was, me and Garcia were the two little guys
[00:57:50] in front and Scheller and Steele were a little bit higher
[00:57:54] and McGee and Moe were taller.
[00:57:56] So our boat was pretty, it was a lot better than like this.
[00:57:59] It was kinda like this.
[00:58:00] And they put it on us.
[00:58:03] And I look at some of the guys like now in my class,
[00:58:05] he said, then they said look over us
[00:58:07] and see what's happened to us.
[00:58:08] Like, well, shit, they ain't quitting.
[00:58:10] You know?
[00:58:11] And so then we get ready to go do Hell Week.
[00:58:15] So I'm looking at my guys.
[00:58:17] By the way, it takes like months and months and months
[00:58:21] to recover from Hell Week.
[00:58:24] So you had been through Hell Week
[00:58:25] all the way until the last day.
[00:58:26] Yeah.
[00:58:27] And then you just went right back into a freaking class.
[00:58:30] Then there was like about,
[00:58:31] I don't know, like there was probably about the three weeks
[00:58:33] or something like that.
[00:58:34] And it was the next class.
[00:58:35] Damn.
[00:58:36] We still had blisters on our ass.
[00:58:37] For sure.
[00:58:37] You know, and our hands were still jacked up.
[00:58:40] So we're looking at each other and said,
[00:58:44] okay, this is it.
[00:58:46] We're, what's gonna be painful.
[00:58:48] But what they did then is the officers picked people
[00:58:51] in their classes.
[00:58:52] That's how I got wanted with CrowdAd.
[00:58:54] Right?
[00:58:55] Mr. Kirkland picked me, CrowdAd, Courtney, Inglena,
[00:59:01] and Pauselt.
[00:59:02] What for like their boat crew?
[00:59:04] The boat crew.
[00:59:05] There were six of us.
[00:59:05] And Pauselt were two little guys.
[00:59:07] And then Courtney and Crawford were a little bigger.
[00:59:10] And then Mr. Kirkland, and I forgot the other guy was.
[00:59:16] They do it all by height now.
[00:59:17] So they take all the smaller guys put them together.
[00:59:19] They take all the tall guys put them together.
[00:59:21] Arms were pretty much together.
[00:59:23] Six, there were six of us in the boat crew, not seven.
[00:59:26] And we were the number one boat crew.
[00:59:28] We won.
[00:59:29] We won this.
[00:59:30] And I was at CrowdAd tells the story of when,
[00:59:33] cause we did all those harassment things.
[00:59:35] Well, I did one had to run on my knees like this.
[00:59:37] And another guys were chief Allen comes out there
[00:59:40] and stand in front of me knocking this around.
[00:59:42] And I'm like, Hey guys, help me.
[00:59:45] So we as trainees, right?
[00:59:48] In 42, a lot of guys think outside the box.
[00:59:51] There's a lot of guys in 42, but we are the ones
[00:59:54] that challenged our instructors.
[00:59:56] Oliver, sing a song, Indian guy, right?
[00:59:59] One little two little three little Indians.
[01:00:01] Bang, bang, bang.
[01:00:03] Oh, you're fucking thing is funny.
[01:00:04] Do you know, it sticks us out on the swimmer line, right?
[01:00:09] We're out there on the swimmer line.
[01:00:10] He goes, all I need is one of you to quit.
[01:00:12] So I'm way at the back end.
[01:00:14] Have you all of her?
[01:00:16] Have me, I'll have you.
[01:00:17] You sons of bitches will be out there all night.
[01:00:19] And we were because it was, you know,
[01:00:20] the tide goes in and out.
[01:00:22] And then chief Allen is sitting there.
[01:00:23] There used to be a lady called,
[01:00:24] well, Wolfman Jack was one guy that was going on.
[01:00:26] It's Wolfman Jack.
[01:00:28] I'm doing song music.
[01:00:29] And then there was a lady named her sister Margaret,
[01:00:32] black ladies.
[01:00:33] Do you have problems?
[01:00:36] Do you have pain in your heart?
[01:00:38] If you don't know what you're doing in your life,
[01:00:40] sister Margaret, call her at 355-3585.
[01:00:44] And it was like, eff you sister Margaret.
[01:00:48] Our guys were fighting, we're fighting back, right?
[01:00:51] We're fighting back for that humanity.
[01:00:53] They're, we're fighting back to reveal that.
[01:00:55] That's why 42 is a pretty tight class and big, you know?
[01:01:00] Because the nature of that class.
[01:01:02] The nature of that class was set like that.
[01:01:06] And when we went through training,
[01:01:07] those guys helped me get through this evolution.
[01:01:10] Chief Allen lost his glasses.
[01:01:12] Corporate Ted said,
[01:01:13] we went out looking for his glasses and you went over,
[01:01:15] oh, I got it over here, killer whale.
[01:01:16] We called him killer whale, right?
[01:01:18] And I stood up and if I'm in the sand, I stomped on him.
[01:01:22] Damn, I picked him up when I go, here you go.
[01:01:26] He looked down, he goes straightens him up,
[01:01:30] puts him on, goes, cool, walks off.
[01:01:36] Crawler did his heart felt through his ass,
[01:01:38] and he's going, oh my God, he's going to kill us.
[01:01:40] But that's what they want.
[01:01:43] Your instructors aren't there to kill you and make you.
[01:01:45] They want, they want, now I see it as totally different.
[01:01:47] Not break you down to make you.
[01:01:50] You didn't hear a lot of these seals, right?
[01:01:52] Well, they break you down so we can mold you right back.
[01:01:55] Uh-uh, I'm seeing it now.
[01:01:57] They were breaking me down.
[01:01:58] So that little kid, that little warrior Espinoza in there,
[01:02:01] that young kid that wants to, that is peeled off, right?
[01:02:06] Through the hurt, through the fear,
[01:02:07] through the mistreatment, all that is pulled off.
[01:02:09] I'm never going to be the same as those other,
[01:02:12] however you become a success.
[01:02:15] But that little boy, I want to get back there
[01:02:18] because that's the whole incomplete person that I was.
[01:02:21] So when I strip off all the bullshit, right,
[01:02:23] without the socialization that comes in,
[01:02:25] through the society or the socialization that happens
[01:02:28] in your own family, the pure thing, you know,
[01:02:31] your kids fighting each other or brothers fighting each other
[01:02:34] or in your neighborhood, Bobby Cervantes,
[01:02:37] you know, going to pick on him because he's black
[01:02:39] and he looked like Cochise and he was the target
[01:02:42] of every teacher we had through racism and classism
[01:02:45] and everything else.
[01:02:46] How is he going to get power to fight back?
[01:02:49] Right?
[01:02:50] How are you going to take somebody that is in a community?
[01:02:53] If you were to take in our family, our community,
[01:02:55] our seal community, our family community, we all fought back.
[01:02:59] So that's why there were so many of us
[01:03:00] and that's why we're all,
[01:03:01] even though later on in our lives, we do things
[01:03:04] that cause discord between me and you as a teammate.
[01:03:08] The bottom line, the one thing that we did have
[01:03:11] was that relationship of understanding
[01:03:13] that we were being revealed, not created,
[01:03:17] but being revealed that, yeah, well,
[01:03:20] in order for me to do this, in order for me to be,
[01:03:23] my notes, you don't have a Rolex, but the old seal team,
[01:03:26] real seals got them.
[01:03:27] No, I just got a time X.
[01:03:30] I'm not in the real seal category anymore.
[01:03:34] Yeah, if you, if you're not, we'd sit and we'd pull
[01:03:36] the covers off our Rolex.
[01:03:37] Did you guys get issued?
[01:03:38] You guys have got issued those?
[01:03:39] Two-Dur Rolexes, yeah.
[01:03:40] See, that's, you know, I got some cars.
[01:03:42] I'm going to file that with the complaint department.
[01:03:44] You should, you should.
[01:03:45] I got Jack.
[01:03:46] That's how we knew who we were, you know?
[01:03:47] Matter of fact, I'll tell you a story about this thing,
[01:03:49] but, but you know that.
[01:03:51] Well, I always say that, well, when people ask about,
[01:03:54] you know, buds, which was buds for me, it was UDTRA for you.
[01:03:59] Like, they don't teach you anything
[01:04:00] and they don't teach you mental toughness.
[01:04:01] You just, the people that don't have it, go away.
[01:04:04] Right.
[01:04:05] You start, it's sorting itself out in you.
[01:04:08] And, and, and, and you know, the beautiful thing
[01:04:12] about it too is that when you're both doing that
[01:04:14] and you and I are in the mud and we're crying,
[01:04:16] we're sitting in a little room like this,
[01:04:18] and you look up and you look at Garcia and go, okay.
[01:04:25] All right.
[01:04:26] And then Mokru cried out, right?
[01:04:28] You know, or Pat on the ass or, hey, we can do this, you know?
[01:04:31] And, and Chief Allen, you need to set,
[01:04:34] especially on the race piece with that,
[01:04:35] about who I am as a human being, right?
[01:04:38] The great spirit there, I am the light that's in me,
[01:04:40] that, that, that moves forward, right?
[01:04:43] Me and Gregory Lee Garcia, cause we got rolled to 41, right?
[01:04:46] We're sitting looking at each other, well, shit, man.
[01:04:47] We're, we're screwed, you know?
[01:04:51] Yeah, I know.
[01:04:52] Did you ever know McIntosh?
[01:04:54] Yep.
[01:04:55] So McIntosh.
[01:04:56] Butch. Yeah.
[01:04:57] So Butch comes walking in, he's in my class.
[01:04:59] He comes walking in, he goes, hey, you guys in a 42?
[01:05:02] Yeah.
[01:05:03] He goes, oh, so am I.
[01:05:06] It says, and I'm glad, I'm glad to see you guys, man.
[01:05:08] It's just, because we're like, why is that?
[01:05:10] It says, well, we got to stick together.
[01:05:13] I said, we, we got to stick together.
[01:05:16] He says, because we're minorities.
[01:05:18] I said, I said, hey, man, I said, me and Garcia,
[01:05:21] we know we're minorities, but you're a white guy.
[01:05:23] Cause he's, he's his complexion.
[01:05:25] Do you know Butch?
[01:05:26] No.
[01:05:27] It's McIntosh.
[01:05:28] Oh yeah, that's right.
[01:05:29] Cause he's from like the islands.
[01:05:30] St. Thomas VI.
[01:05:32] He's from the Bahamas.
[01:05:34] So he's here, and he says, no, he says,
[01:05:37] I'm not a white guy.
[01:05:38] I said, yeah, you're, you're white.
[01:05:39] He goes, no, I'm on.
[01:05:40] He says, I'm from St. Thomas VI.
[01:05:42] He says, so Gregory Lee goes,
[01:05:45] what's the VI?
[01:05:46] This is the Virgin Islands.
[01:05:48] So we're Fresno and Colorado.
[01:05:50] I said, you mean there's virgins on the islands.
[01:05:54] He named them after, no man.
[01:05:56] He said, it's named after red beard
[01:05:58] or black beard, the pirate.
[01:05:59] He says, the days of the Caribbean.
[01:06:01] He says, rum, rum and lobster and, and the islands.
[01:06:05] That's where I'm from.
[01:06:05] My mom was, I said, but you're still, you're still,
[01:06:08] you're still a white guy.
[01:06:09] No. He says, I'm black from my mom.
[01:06:11] He says, and I'm Dutch from my papa.
[01:06:14] I says, but I says, you're, you're a white guy.
[01:06:17] He goes, no, and he takes his foot like this.
[01:06:20] He stomps it down.
[01:06:21] He goes, no, I'm a soul.
[01:06:24] Man. So, so I go, I go, I don't know, man.
[01:06:30] I think he's so white guys.
[01:06:31] He says, no, no, no.
[01:06:32] So the very first day of training,
[01:06:33] Chief Allen gets up there.
[01:06:36] Espanol is a Garcia front and center, right?
[01:06:39] The six of us, right?
[01:06:41] The other four, we tried to be shallow.
[01:06:43] We tried to sit in the silence.
[01:06:44] We tried to sit in, we don't want to be,
[01:06:47] you don't want to profile yourself.
[01:06:48] You don't want, sometimes you are profiled.
[01:06:51] It's just the way it is, right?
[01:06:53] Understanding that it is, that it exists, right?
[01:06:56] So he yells at us front and center.
[01:06:59] Who ya chief Allen?
[01:07:00] Fireman Espanol's report is ordered chief.
[01:07:05] Who ya?
[01:07:06] Ermin Garcia report is ordered chief.
[01:07:09] Yeah. You guys, he's looking at us.
[01:07:11] He goes, I'm going to use the word end, right?
[01:07:16] Espanol's, you've seen these big black and beautiful.
[01:07:18] He's like you, right?
[01:07:20] He's like, you see any ends around here?
[01:07:26] It's got to be a trick question.
[01:07:27] Sounds like a trick question.
[01:07:28] It could be a setup.
[01:07:29] Could be, because that's what you do.
[01:07:31] The whole training is that.
[01:07:33] Think about it.
[01:07:34] The whole training is that when an instructor
[01:07:35] has an event with you,
[01:07:36] there's something that they want out of you.
[01:07:38] They're guiding you or they want to provoke you.
[01:07:40] Either anger or whatever that stuff.
[01:07:42] And I learned it's always better to cry
[01:07:45] when you're in pain than to be in anger
[01:07:48] because the results of anger can, it's a hard deal, right?
[01:07:52] So I said, no chief Allen.
[01:07:55] I said, I don't see any.
[01:07:56] I don't see any around here.
[01:07:58] Garcia?
[01:08:00] No chief Allen.
[01:08:01] I don't see any around here.
[01:08:04] He says, well from now on for the rest of this class,
[01:08:06] when I want an end front and center,
[01:08:08] it says when I want an end,
[01:08:09] you two come front and center, right?
[01:08:10] Do you understand that?
[01:08:12] So I'm going, well chief,
[01:08:16] and we just got done with the,
[01:08:18] we were with the swimming trunks on our boots, right?
[01:08:20] I said, I think, I think Magintosh.
[01:08:24] I said, I said, I said, Magintosh.
[01:08:31] He goes, where's he at?
[01:08:33] We're all out there, right?
[01:08:34] We don't have suntans yet.
[01:08:35] We're out there and he goes, I said,
[01:08:37] the guy, we're on the far left.
[01:08:39] He goes, far left.
[01:08:41] He goes, yeah, he's Magintosh, front and center.
[01:08:44] So Magintosh, he doesn't run out there like we do,
[01:08:46] you know, we're in our military.
[01:08:47] So Magintosh lobes out like a gazelle.
[01:08:51] He jumps out and lobe it.
[01:08:52] Comes out from the chief.
[01:08:54] Aaron Magintosh reported to his chief.
[01:08:57] He goes, Magintosh, are you an end?
[01:09:02] No, chief Allen, I'm a soul.
[01:09:09] Chief Allen looks at him, he goes, turn around.
[01:09:12] So he didn't bow face, looks his back, it was his.
[01:09:15] Turn sideways, turn sideways.
[01:09:18] Turn sideways again, so he turns sideways.
[01:09:20] He looked at him, he goes, yeah, Magintosh.
[01:09:24] He says, I think you are an end.
[01:09:26] As a matter of fact, you're the ugliest mother.
[01:09:28] And I've ever seen in my life,
[01:09:30] hit the bay and take these other two ends with you, man.
[01:09:33] So there we were, we would be in class.
[01:09:36] We'd be in class, chief Allen, saying, hey,
[01:09:39] all you ends hit the bay.
[01:09:42] We run, hit the bay, get wet, we come back,
[01:09:44] you know, recover, right?
[01:09:45] We come back and sit in class.
[01:09:48] So that's what he gave us.
[01:09:51] You know, he gave that to us to say,
[01:09:54] it's kind of like a letter that I wrote to a girl
[01:09:56] that I thought I was breaking up with, you know,
[01:09:58] about all I love you, da, da, da, da, da, da.
[01:10:00] And somebody says, oh, and she didn't come back to me, right?
[01:10:05] But it's just, they say, oh, oh,
[01:10:07] she gave you a beautiful gift.
[01:10:09] I mean, what kind of a beautiful gift is this?
[01:10:11] We still broke up.
[01:10:12] No, the deal is, you wrote how you can love somebody.
[01:10:18] That's who you're looking for.
[01:10:19] That's what they did.
[01:10:20] They gave us stuff and put us in that pain
[01:10:22] so that we would reveal ourselves.
[01:10:26] So we could say, well,
[01:10:27] we're gonna go to the bathroom and we're gonna go to the
[01:10:29] bathroom and we're gonna go to the bathroom.
[01:10:31] And then one day he comes out and he says,
[01:10:33] all you non-ans hit the bait.
[01:10:35] Well, me, I knew who I was, right?
[01:10:38] I'm standing, me and Garcy, we're standing there
[01:10:41] and all the white guys gone and the two Koreans
[01:10:44] and two Turks, man, they're in the water too.
[01:10:46] They're in the water, right?
[01:10:48] So, so I happened a couple of times,
[01:10:50] a couple of evolutions, right?
[01:10:52] And so finally, Yankee too comes up,
[01:10:53] he's Korean guy, he goes, epi, epi.
[01:10:55] And then, in, none in, Mr. Chal, we water.
[01:10:59] I said, you from now on, you and in.
[01:11:02] Oh, okay, okay, okay, I understand.
[01:11:08] And so then the two Koreans stood,
[01:11:10] the whole class went in the water,
[01:11:12] and Mark Schoenberg, who looked like, how do you do these?
[01:11:14] He's got little blue eyes, you know,
[01:11:16] and got teeth that actually later on in Oliver
[01:11:19] and broke his teeth, pushed on his head on a swimming pool,
[01:11:24] right, and the water is decked and he had his teeth.
[01:11:26] Chief Allen comes up to him and goes,
[01:11:28] Schoenberg, who you got, Chief Allen?
[01:11:31] I said, I thought I said all you none in's hit the bay.
[01:11:35] Who you got, Chief Allen?
[01:11:38] I said, all you none in's hit the bay.
[01:11:41] Schoenberg stood up and said, Chief Allen,
[01:11:43] today I am an in.
[01:11:47] He looked at me and goes, cool, walks off.
[01:11:50] So then the rest of the class,
[01:11:52] the rest of the class are going,
[01:11:54] what the hell is going on with this stuff?
[01:11:56] We told him, hey, tell me, hey,
[01:11:58] so then after that everybody knew
[01:12:00] and the Koreans knew, but we didn't tell the two Turks.
[01:12:03] So the two Turks were in the bay,
[01:12:06] then we told them.
[01:12:08] But, you know, and the very first day of training,
[01:12:10] like in 41, Oliver comes up, right?
[01:12:13] He comes walking up, got his ball cap,
[01:12:16] chew here, scar there, little blue slicker,
[01:12:20] cut off, you know, the instructor shorts,
[01:12:23] the big diver socks with his shiny Cochrane boots.
[01:12:28] He comes walking up, got an umbrella,
[01:12:31] walks up and we're all standing there,
[01:12:33] and he looks at all of us, walks out cocky.
[01:12:40] Looks at all of us, says.
[01:12:44] As you can see on my slicker,
[01:12:46] this says Big G, little O, little D.
[01:12:50] There's only one Big G, big O, big D,
[01:12:53] and that's a creative of the universe.
[01:12:55] And he's a creator of you and me.
[01:12:58] But God's not here.
[01:13:00] But I am.
[01:13:02] So for the next 18 weeks, when I tell you to run,
[01:13:04] you will run.
[01:13:06] When I tell you to drop, you will drop.
[01:13:08] When I tell you to shit, I'll tell you what color.
[01:13:10] He did an about face, popped up his umbrella,
[01:13:13] and walked off.
[01:13:15] That was another one of those,
[01:13:17] that's been those, you know, what the hell are you doing here, right?
[01:13:21] So those two instructors are more Moyes picture.
[01:13:26] You know, and you asked Moye about when he,
[01:13:29] when, you know, he's told a couple of hilarious stories about.
[01:13:32] What class was Moye in?
[01:13:33] He's probably like,
[01:13:37] he's probably about two before me, maybe 39, maybe 37.
[01:13:41] You know, he's an older guy.
[01:13:44] I mean, I think probably 37, something like that.
[01:13:46] But anyway, he did his stuff.
[01:13:48] And he tells a cool story about being with Olivera.
[01:13:53] They lost one of the boat crews somehow there,
[01:13:56] because they were trying during hell week.
[01:13:58] So they went out in a vehicle trying to track them down,
[01:14:00] find out where they are.
[01:14:01] And they ran, they had buried themselves under their boat in the sand.
[01:14:05] So boom, they hit it about lost control of the vehicle.
[01:14:09] And they come back around and everybody's up and about, you know,
[01:14:13] he says, it's so cool because Olivera just comes in and says,
[01:14:16] yeah, we'll catch you hiding like that again.
[01:14:18] He says, and we're going to run over you again.
[01:14:20] You know, he's like, he says, we didn't know where they were at, you know,
[01:14:24] but there's a lot of, there's a lot of that stuff, you know, but yeah.
[01:14:29] So those, those two instructors.
[01:14:30] And so then when we graduated, right, we went through the training,
[01:14:37] you know, and we were in different boat crews and I did.
[01:14:40] And I assume all six guys, all six made it.
[01:14:42] And two of us went in the seal team.
[01:14:45] We were drafted into the seal team.
[01:14:47] When, when I met you for the first time, you were telling me about,
[01:14:50] but one of the instructors saying to you, can you change the temperature of the water?
[01:14:55] That was all of it.
[01:14:56] What happened with that? Tell us that.
[01:14:57] Well, I'm freezing my ass off, right?
[01:15:00] You're 120 pounds, right?
[01:15:02] I grabbed the big guy.
[01:15:03] It wasn't, it wasn't a homophobic thing at all, man.
[01:15:06] I was, you know, they're putting off heat, man.
[01:15:09] And I'm sitting there crying all over here.
[01:15:13] Come on.
[01:15:14] Who y'all there?
[01:15:16] What's the temperature of the ocean?
[01:15:19] The temperature of the ocean.
[01:15:22] And I'm crying.
[01:15:24] I got tears because, and I'm glad I was wet because I don't,
[01:15:28] no man wants to see another man cry.
[01:15:30] So I'm crying.
[01:15:31] He says, can you change the temperature of the ocean?
[01:15:35] And I'm thinking, well, if I piss in my wetsuit a little bit,
[01:15:38] but I'm not, I'm not wearing a wetsuit.
[01:15:42] So, and I don't want to be a smart ass, right?
[01:15:44] Because this don't want to be a, all these guys have said,
[01:15:47] oh yeah, I told you instructor this when I went through training
[01:15:50] and I, like, bullshit.
[01:15:52] I mean, if they wanted to hurt you, they could hurt you anytime they wanted to, right?
[01:15:56] That's the power.
[01:15:57] That's, it's like society.
[01:15:59] There are some people that are here that are here.
[01:16:01] How do you want to function in it?
[01:16:03] You can be in it and be in pain, but you're not, you're not going to give it up.
[01:16:06] So I'm there in pain.
[01:16:09] And I said, no Oliver.
[01:16:12] He looks at me and says, and it doesn't matter with the,
[01:16:14] if in temperature the water is dozen, that's what I was saying.
[01:16:17] No, Oliver.
[01:16:20] Two days later, I'm phrasing again.
[01:16:24] Kind of reminding when I was crying and the little kids were going to beat me up, you know.
[01:16:29] Okay.
[01:16:30] He says, can you change the temperature?
[01:16:33] What's the temperature of the water, that's what I was saying?
[01:16:35] It doesn't matter what the temperature of the water is, Oliver.
[01:16:39] He goes, Espinosa, the temperature of the water is toasty warm.
[01:16:46] So, so then I understood, right?
[01:16:49] I can't change the temperature of the ocean, right?
[01:16:52] And the thing about the teams is the only easy days yesterday, right?
[01:16:55] Those two things in my life were very powerful.
[01:16:58] The same as that fire that hit me, right?
[01:17:00] But that is that piece I'm telling you is being revealing.
[01:17:05] The one thing I did have though, was to say, I can't change the temperature of the ocean,
[01:17:12] but I'm here, if I, I was thought of being with my six guys, right?
[01:17:21] That not one of us gave it up, and that I can't give it up.
[01:17:26] I got it, I'm choosing to be here, because at any time I can leave, anytime.
[01:17:31] Nobody's telling me to stay here.
[01:17:33] Nobody's telling me to be whatever, all the hurt and fear, I've changed.
[01:17:36] I'm changing, I'm evolving.
[01:17:38] And that day it was like three choices.
[01:17:43] One, I can quit.
[01:17:46] The second is, I can be here in misery, or I embrace it and say, this is the cost.
[01:17:59] I say what it costs.
[01:18:01] And in order for me to be where I want to be, there is going to be the point where,
[01:18:06] and I think guys get it after they've graduated and go into the downrange into the combat area,
[01:18:12] I'm going to die to do this.
[01:18:15] I'm going to die, then quit.
[01:18:18] That is part of the cost.
[01:18:20] And that's what I love about my brothers, when I look at them, and we come to all that's point, right?
[01:18:25] And we go out into our world and we understand that and we bring that into ourselves.
[01:18:29] And then those cats that have all these behaviors, the racism, the sexism, the heteros,
[01:18:36] all that bullshit, all those really weird behaviors, at one point in their life they were clean and a child.
[01:18:44] They were for real.
[01:18:46] And then after that, they go back and they pick this shit up, bring it back,
[01:18:50] because that makes them feel comfortable of where they were.
[01:18:53] They don't want to live in that spirit of being free, of being who you are,
[01:18:57] because it makes you accountable to everything that happens to you.
[01:19:00] Good or bad, psychological bullshit.
[01:19:03] When I got on the fire department, I was dead.
[01:19:06] I'd become inhuman.
[01:19:08] I remember getting in Vietnam and my dad would say, give me.
[01:19:11] I would remember you're a human being.
[01:19:14] And I almost lost that.
[01:19:16] And I remember seeing a jar of ears, right?
[01:19:18] It wasn't my platoon, I don't know who did it or whatever, but my officers, being leaders, came up and,
[01:19:24] old Bosin Campbell, man, he was an enlisted guy who became an ensign,
[01:19:29] retired, actually, as a lieutenant commander, I think.
[01:19:33] He said, see this shit?
[01:19:35] We're all like, what is it, you know?
[01:19:37] And then he says, we don't do this.
[01:19:41] We're not going to get rid of this jar.
[01:19:45] We don't do this shit.
[01:19:46] Anybody we kill is going to have a weapon.
[01:19:49] Or if they're collateral damage with people that have weapons, we're going to do that,
[01:19:53] but we're not going to do this kind of stuff afterwards.
[01:19:56] I think I said it was one of the things with the PRU program that was kind of weird,
[01:19:59] because they kept body counts like that, you know, that inhumanity thing,
[01:20:03] that whole CIA bullshit, you know, the whole PRU thing, you know, that they were all cowboys.
[01:20:09] You could do whatever you wanted, you know?
[01:20:11] And, you know, I think when I was there, a man's inhumanity to man, you know, I was with my buddy, Noyce, right?
[01:20:26] We were working for the company and doing stuff, and we took a break, went to Saigon to party.
[01:20:32] Hopped on a helicopter, took off.
[01:20:35] I believe my cousin with the PRU program.
[01:20:38] It was crazy, but partying with this, I saw this, I was always practicing my skills, my language skills,
[01:20:44] and I saw this little Vietnamese guy looking at me, I'm looking at him, I said,
[01:20:47] Hey, lady, comes over, auntie, what's your name?
[01:20:51] I said, ah, I'll drink beer, you drink beer?
[01:20:56] Yeah, he looked at me, I said, yeah, yeah, me, yeah.
[01:21:01] So, I said, so his friends came, we sat and we drank, liked him, you know, we connected, you know,
[01:21:08] sometimes you don't even know somebody, but you feel good with them, right?
[01:21:13] We did that for two days, third day we had to leave, and when we left, because he was trying to learn English,
[01:21:18] I was trying to learn English, Vietnamese, hugged each other, catch you later, and we take off.
[01:21:23] Noyce was going, oh, shit, I'm in this Vietnamese, they don't know I'm an American.
[01:21:27] We were in civilian clothes, they don't know who you are, you know, so Bill was sitting like this, you know, looking around.
[01:21:35] But we spent three days there, and when we took over this group, which was the Green Beret group,
[01:21:40] which was the crew program, my cousin was a Green Beret and another guy,
[01:21:45] matter of fact, when we flew in, he was flying out, did the Green Beret hands leak,
[01:21:49] wearing his aviator shades and stuff, and this guy is a black sergeant,
[01:21:56] can't remember his name, but he said, oh, you just missed Captain Pacheco, and I'm like, wow.
[01:22:01] And I said, what's his first name? He told me, I said, from Pupacoy, California, he goes, yeah, I said, that's my cousin.
[01:22:10] Ah, bullshit, I said, is his mom's Aurora, and his dad's Celestino, yeah, I said, yeah, he's my cousin.
[01:22:18] So when I got back, country, right, I started asking, I said, you ever heard this, I mentioned the name,
[01:22:24] I mentioned the case worker, I mentioned the sergeant, and the name of the city, and he goes, why are you asking me this?
[01:22:31] I said, do you remember when you got relieved and you hence alluded some cats coming in?
[01:22:36] He said, you didn't close? He goes, yeah, so it was me and my mate.
[01:22:40] Bullshit, you know, then he asked me, he says, what about, was there a guy with the white scarf of Viet Cong?
[01:22:48] He said, did you ever run into him? I said, yeah, he shot the shit out of us, you know, but we were using the army tactics,
[01:22:54] and we weren't using the seal tactics, right, and how we would patrol and our warning orders,
[01:23:00] they were, you know, doing a fast warning order and the brief hop and then going, we never left, we never, it was like right away.
[01:23:10] It wasn't like an hour, going an hour later, we popped out right away, because we knew about the intel leaks,
[01:23:19] and so we got back, we decided to do a quick hop, and said, let's just go out, work, so we grabbed like five guys,
[01:23:28] and we took off, didn't even tell the rest of the group, and we went out, night, early in the morning, got hit,
[01:23:35] and we went and checked the bodies, and there was a kid with the white scarf, and the kid with the white scarf was the kid that we drank with in Saigon.
[01:23:44] I looked at him, man, and I got, you know, I got emotional, and I told Noyce, he said, come here, Billy goes in and looks,
[01:23:54] and he goes, oh my god, man, I think his name is Trann, but yeah, he looks at me and goes, man, you know,
[01:24:03] and that's when I understood that warriors, right, that the ideologies of countries, right, use us, that we go fight these wars,
[01:24:17] we go do whatever that is, but I wrote it, I got it, wrote it on my phone, right now I'm kind of…
[01:24:33] Well, someone on the other side is doing the same thing.
[01:24:35] Doing the same thing, but we're human, you know, there was that connection, that we as soldiers are fighting these wars for other people's ideologies,
[01:24:44] and if they'd have left us alone, we would have been best friends.
[01:24:48] So when I got out of the fire department, guys are playing, oh, you got to remember where you're from, you know, all this bullshit,
[01:24:54] and I'm like, did you ever kill a commie from mommy, mother, you know, like, no, you know, there's a whole thing about how I fit into the fire department,
[01:25:05] but I would tell them, I've killed a better man than you, and meaning it, because that guy and I would have been friends.
[01:25:15] We laughed, we drank, we smoked cigarettes, and when we left, we felt sad that it wasn't going to work,
[01:25:25] and then you meet them on… this is a small world, man, you know, and my heart broke that day, you know,
[01:25:36] and I told this story to my grandson, and he put it in a poem, but he said, and his heart was crushed,
[01:25:44] and that was hard, you know, other than getting connected. There was a guy named Tic, a Vietnamese guy, our point man.
[01:25:58] We got jacked up one time, he said, yes, me, he said, let's go, we go kill communists.
[01:26:03] So let's go, buzzed. We went out, we set up on a river, waiting, nothing happened to the world that could ever see,
[01:26:18] but him sitting beside me, right, and thinking, okay, we're going to war, and if it happens, we are together.
[01:26:26] I didn't say a word, but the connection, the spiritual connection, the blending of us as warriors, you can't buy that shit.
[01:26:36] You can't create it, you can't form it. It exists in a spiritual sense, you know.
[01:26:43] Let's go back to just to cover this part of your history to when you graduated BUDs,
[01:26:50] because you mentioned it, but you didn't go into too much detail about that. You were one of the few guys that got selected to go straight to
[01:26:57] SEAL Team, SEAL Team 1 without going to UDT. At the time, the normal procedure was guys graduate BUDs,
[01:27:06] they go to UDT, the underwater demolition teams, they do deployments there, and then they can volunteer to go over to SEAL Team,
[01:27:13] which is going to be more land based, still foot in the water, but going to be more land based,
[01:27:18] and you went straight to, you got to order straight to SEAL Team 1.
[01:27:22] Why do you think that was?
[01:27:25] Well, Captain Shibull, not actually, Captain Anderson was the commander when we were selected.
[01:27:34] He actually lives in Ignacio, New Mexico, no, Colorado.
[01:27:41] When you get together, he says, yeah, Espinoza says I picked you, you, and Czakowski, and he knows all the names, right?
[01:27:51] I said, what was with that? He says, we weren't getting the guys that were volunteering from UDT because we were getting shot up.
[01:28:01] I mean, and I think even Roger Hayden, that's why Roger, I mean, he got shot up except in UDT.
[01:28:08] And he goes, he said, I want to get my ass shot if you're doing UDT.
[01:28:13] I want to go into SEAL Team and figure this shit out.
[01:28:15] If we're going to, if we're UDT guys are going to be running SEAL Ops, I want to know what I need to know to do that.
[01:28:22] And so the whole switch-up in operations from the water work to the land, the guerrilla warfare, right?
[01:28:31] UDT, all the water work, explosives up to the berm line, and then we're from the hinterline in as far as we can go.
[01:28:39] Now, you guys, you're going in big, all huge helicopters taking them.
[01:28:44] I'm going, hell no, man. I'd rather be in the jungle, you know, just, and they weren't getting them.
[01:28:50] And so what he did is he had the instructors start hand-selecting guys that they think could transition.
[01:28:59] And then they took the volunteers, they took the volunteers, UDT guys, and it's really, God, you know, the way things work out.
[01:29:11] Guys like from 38 and 39 are marrying up with guys from 42 and 41, right?
[01:29:19] So a lot of the guys in those classes, like Crawford, right, he was part of the dirty dozen, right?
[01:29:26] And his instructor was, one of our instructors was Barry Enoch, right?
[01:29:32] And then some of the guys that were with him, too, were out of class 38 and 39, and the guys that I operated with, like Hyatt and Richards and the DeAngelo, they're from 38 and 39, right?
[01:29:43] So this whole group, when you talk about only 150 guys, I mean, they were making multiple truers.
[01:29:54] I had made two, but I broke my leg in a platoon workup, right?
[01:29:58] And I about cried. I did cry because I was in Balboa Hospital and it felt like that damn hell week when the guys were going around in the paddle, you know, and going to finish the hell week. I'm not going.
[01:30:10] That's what I'm going to do. That's what I want to do. And there were no doubts.
[01:30:16] And I think if you had the doubt, and I don't know how guys work now, if you have any doubt, you don't belong going, you know?
[01:30:23] I told guys on the fire department, you don't want to do everything, take off the damn Maltese.
[01:30:28] And all we had was the little gold wings, but I remember Chief Stahl, we're going through SEAL training, SEAL Cadrate, right? We're out there in Nile.
[01:30:37] We lived in boxcars. There was only two girls in the bar. That place was Lunarface and Craterface.
[01:30:43] And everybody was hot on them, and they make them feel like queens, you know?
[01:30:48] Well, the Desert Boys didn't like that. So one day, like, eight of the Desert Boys came down and there was a tuxel in the bar, right?
[01:30:57] I don't know where Chief Stahl, he's a little guy like me. He's a Korea guy. He is a Korea guy, but also a raider.
[01:31:05] The Army Raider guys, right? Ranger, whatever, you know, because there were the Green Beret guys, but there were also the Rangers.
[01:31:14] And I'm sitting there with my little beard, you know, the guys are all laughing and everything, and he comes in there.
[01:31:20] God damn it! He says, you are at first, and he's the guy, he's the guy when we're standing, going through training, he goes,
[01:31:28] yeah, I want two rows of corn here. Two rows of corn here. I want my M16 man over here, my M16 here, my Grenadiers over here, my Stoner man,
[01:31:39] and the officers with your M16s, I want you assigned, right? He said, when that left foot hits, you got the M16, I want the TUT.
[01:31:49] He says, and if you're on the M16, you want, you want, you want, you want. So you Stoners, I want some singing.
[01:31:55] He says, and the officer, everyone's got boom, and then you Grenadiers, I want you every fourth time you're left foot hit, I want boom.
[01:32:02] You understand? You're all like, yeah, we understand. So he said, be honest, okay, let's move. You know, we're like a rock and roll man, man.
[01:32:11] But really looking at the rate of fire, you know, and the intensity of it, right?
[01:32:17] So we were trained in that small group of what it felt like to be powerful, powerful, invincible, right?
[01:32:27] And so they would grab the guys from UDT, they would marry us up into this Seal Cadbury class.
[01:32:33] And there's a book Vietnam Seals or whatever in Vietnam. And my cousin found the book at Annapolis, she went to Annapolis.
[01:32:42] And you can see up there, it says, SB and Moe, the boat, how they were assigned, and they're doing the instruction.
[01:32:47] That's how basic it was, you know, because they weren't getting guys to do it.
[01:32:55] So he wanted, and I think that was the beginning of transitioning the UDT teams.
[01:33:00] I mean, the kids that are going through Bud's now, and just saying, well, we can save this time.
[01:33:05] Because we, when we went to jump school, Seals, right? The UDT guys had already gone through jump school.
[01:33:12] But those of us who were in, they went through the Seal Cadbury that hadn't done that trip weren't airborne yet.
[01:33:17] So we go to jump school. And we were in shape, man.
[01:33:22] So we were out there doing the run around. We ran at least three or four guys into the dirt.
[01:33:26] You know, they sit there, they get your 10 chin-ups, and I'd do 140 Army.
[01:33:30] And I could do 50 of them at that time. Because I was a little guy, right?
[01:33:34] 140 Army, 140 Navy, 140 Marines. Oh yeah, smartass, give me a couple more.
[01:33:38] And I'd get all of you up to about 47, 45.
[01:33:41] And then I'd yell, instead of yelling who-yod, yell airborne.
[01:33:44] You know, airborne and sergeant, you know.
[01:33:47] And they didn't know who we were.
[01:33:50] I don't know what the other thing was so cool about being a- they didn't know who we were.
[01:33:54] We, uh, matter of fact, me and my partner, uh, we were in-
[01:34:00] We went in, we quit- we didn't talk to anybody, right? Didn't talk to any of the Army guys, you know.
[01:34:05] Is that Airborne School? Airborne School, yeah. We didn't talk to anybody.
[01:34:08] And they assigned guys to put us up into this barracks where we were at.
[01:34:11] So who are you guys? Where you from?
[01:34:15] Just walk away. Just, hey, come on, man. You guys talk.
[01:34:20] Talk to each one of us. Everybody just don't say anything.
[01:34:23] And you know, and then we turn our head and we're like, you know, just playing that, whatever that role is.
[01:34:28] But nobody had to tell you. It just happened.
[01:34:32] It was just like everybody would pick up on the energy of everybody else.
[01:34:35] That's the other thing that's created in the training class.
[01:34:39] You can see him.
[01:34:42] There's a group of kids from team eight when I went to a golf tournament.
[01:34:45] I can see when they came in, they're all picking up on the energy of each other.
[01:34:48] All wearing shirts that they got from Walmart.
[01:34:51] One has a cat, one has a bird, you know, wearing their flip flops.
[01:34:55] I mean, that whole- they're so out of uniform that they're in uniform. Does that make sense?
[01:34:59] Yeah.
[01:35:00] You can tell who a frogman is by the stuff that he doesn't wear to- not conform, but he is conform.
[01:35:07] Right? So, you know, it, but anyway, back to Chief Stone.
[01:35:14] He yelled at us, you sons of bitches are living on the reputation of dead men.
[01:35:19] Get all the money you got out of your pockets, leave it for them, and I'll meet you back at the area.
[01:35:25] And then we just had a big old hole in the earth that we threw wood into the island.
[01:35:29] We built a fire and then you sleep in these box cars with these springs and you put your bed in there.
[01:35:36] Like a mummy thing. And we wake up in the morning, there's a damn snake in there with you, you know.
[01:35:41] And, but that night we operated all night long.
[01:35:45] I mean, it was, it was kind of like a, almost like a two-day off all night, the all night thing.
[01:35:49] We're no sleep. And you were glad that you went through Hell Week because you could operate like that.
[01:35:54] You could, you could do that. And, and, and he never scolded us after that.
[01:36:02] He only told us, some of the bitches are living on reputation of dead men, made us hurt.
[01:36:07] And he says, you're not seals yet. I understood it. You're not seals yet.
[01:36:14] So I finished Seal Cadbury, right? Those of us who made it through and Marcia and Mackintosh, hey, I'll meet you at the trade winds, trade wind bar.
[01:36:21] That's where we all hang out, right? I said, all right. So we, we show up, we show up there and the night before, I'm going to meet them next to the night before,
[01:36:29] I'm sitting there and I have me a beer and the lady comes up, sits beside me and she sits right beside me.
[01:36:36] And I'm like, you one of those FNGs? I'm like, I don't know.
[01:36:45] I want some nap. She says FNG. I don't know what that is. It's a fucking new guy.
[01:36:52] I'm like, well, yeah, I guess I got my Rolex, right? I got my Rolex. Yeah, I'm almost a new guy. I got my Rolex.
[01:37:02] Well, I'm Chief Gustavus' wife. Someone tell you something. I can outdream you. I can out fight you. And I can out eff you.
[01:37:13] I'm like, oh, man, can I, can I buy you a beer? The Chief's wife. And I'm 20 years old, I'm sneaking into the bar, right?
[01:37:25] And so she says FNA, right? Right? So I, you can have mine. I just got it.
[01:37:33] But anyway, she says, I'm going to tell you something. She says the Chief has three tours of Vietnam. He's never been hurt. Never got anybody killed.
[01:37:43] He says, we lost a couple guys. And I think by that time FUNC had gotten, all the guys that got killed were on stupid shit.
[01:37:49] Like FUNC, they had him, had him tied and they were going to show these senators how we do stuff when we capture people.
[01:37:55] They were on a boat broached. He went into the river, found him four or five days later. And the way the water runs is so dark and the current killed him.
[01:38:04] Right? We kill our own for stupid shit. Our guy's drilling it out in a two millimeter mortar and it kills guys.
[01:38:11] Mike Corman, they went to Vietnam with this. He switched out with a guy that was a regular Corman that was with Marines.
[01:38:17] He switched out with him so he could, this other guy could get his pay. Right? And Doc Maynard's walking with another guy that goes off.
[01:38:26] They're walking by and kills both of them. A guy named Van Hoy who had like, he wrote to everybody, man, he had his shit together. Right?
[01:38:34] Doc Maynard, that's how you lose guys, right? But I lost track.
[01:38:44] So what did she tell you? So she told me, she said, yeah, thank you. So don't get him killed. And if you don't want to do this job, if you don't know what you're going to go, and this is where I'm a wife.
[01:38:56] Right? And sometimes I guess my understanding is some of the wives take on the personality of the officer's wives, start their little stuff.
[01:39:05] You know, my daughter is the wife of an officer, Marine Corps officer. And she let me know the human piece, right? This is a family.
[01:39:16] I mean, she, they have their family. This is what it means to her. And I'm responsible for myself to make sure he doesn't get killed.
[01:39:23] And I have to learn that stuff, not just for me. And I understood that sometimes in the teams, I don't want to let anybody down, right?
[01:39:34] It isn't that at all. If I could do anything like that, and then you let yourself down, and I have, I mean, I'm not sinless, you know.
[01:39:42] But I know that when I come to that point where I do something I don't want to do, and don't do the things that I should do, the greatest disappointment is me, because I don't have power over that.
[01:39:54] Or I chose to do whatever I did. And so I looked at her and I went, no, man. I said, if I, if I, I don't know what I'm going, I mean, I just graduated to seal training.
[01:40:07] I don't know where I'm going. I said, I promise, and Chief Gustav was a cool dude, you know, he was a good operator and everything. So I got that.
[01:40:16] So next day, I told Macintosh Garcia, I said, well, I'll meet you, you know, all right. You know, so we get together. And it was early in the day.
[01:40:25] And you never, there was a trade wind bar when you went.
[01:40:28] Was it an IB?
[01:40:29] No, it was, it was right. This was a little, it's on Orange Avenue.
[01:40:34] Yeah, no.
[01:40:35] Down from McPee's between Danny and McPee's is where the ice cream place is.
[01:40:39] Yeah, no, it was gone.
[01:40:40] But anyway, it had swinging doors. You walk in there, you walk in and a lot of a lot of character and a lot of who we were as the, not just the operational piece, but the interpersonal piece, right?
[01:40:54] So we walk into this place swinging doors and we look down and there's this guy got John his mouth and smoking cigar by the bathroom and you weren't sure whether he was the bathroom had a problem with plumbing or whether it was him.
[01:41:08] He's eating boiled eggs and drinking beer and he went to the head and he was like, huh, and he had a full growth.
[01:41:14] And I'll just, the guys and those guys in the team will know that it was tobacco, right?
[01:41:19] Because he had a lot of tobacco.
[01:41:21] So he looks down at us and me, Macintosh and Garcia.
[01:41:25] And so I said, Hey, you guys the FNGs?
[01:41:30] I already knew who I was.
[01:41:31] I was going to say, yeah, he says, that's all we need in the teams is more FNNs, Mexicans and Ns.
[01:41:42] So I was like, who?
[01:41:46] Yeah, you know, so we just looked at each other.
[01:41:52] But the cool piece about it, we already knew who we were.
[01:41:55] Chief Allen already established it for us.
[01:41:57] All of our already established it for us. I don't know who this cat is, but he's an operator and he has every right to say whatever he wants to say to me because I've done anything.
[01:42:06] Right?
[01:42:07] So I missed my first platoon. I go over, do my trip, do my Vietnam thing.
[01:42:11] Well, what happened on your, you broke your leg in your first workup?
[01:42:16] Were you parachuting or what were you doing?
[01:42:18] How do I tell everybody?
[01:42:20] I was parachuting and repelling was one of the other things. When I got to Balboa Hospital, it was like, how'd you do that?
[01:42:28] Well, sure, I was repelling.
[01:42:31] How far away from deployment were you?
[01:42:34] Two weeks.
[01:42:35] Oh, two weeks.
[01:42:37] Getting ready to go on deployment. What happened?
[01:42:38] So what we did, what we were doing was doing a compass course, right?
[01:42:42] Alpha Brown, you had these different legs and we went by ourselves like about four minutes behind each other.
[01:42:48] So we'd cover each other right?
[01:42:50] We didn't go in pairs. We went singles.
[01:42:54] And so I'm, this is like a 10 mile deal, right?
[01:42:57] So I'm up on this rock and I'm looking thinking, oh, shit, I got another, I don't know, maybe a mile to go down this other rock.
[01:43:06] I have my black face on, I have all my stuff. I've got my weapon in this hand.
[01:43:10] I've got my compasses and everything and I'm looking and here comes a guy on a horse.
[01:43:15] He says, hey, how you doing? This is good. How you doing?
[01:43:18] He says, don't find something. I've done a nice ride today.
[01:43:21] I said, oh, light, cheat, steal, do whatever you can to get through, but don't get caught, right?
[01:43:26] I said, you don't happen to be going by that rock down there.
[01:43:29] He says, I'm going right by that rock.
[01:43:31] I said, how about a ride? He says, sure.
[01:43:34] So I get ready to shift my, you know, my hands over to a weapon to reach up to grab me.
[01:43:39] He goes, oh, no, he says, you're a little enough.
[01:43:41] He says, I'll just pull you up.
[01:43:43] I said, all right. So I put my foot, put my foot.
[01:43:46] That's the other thing you learn is don't let anybody else have control over your shit.
[01:43:50] Right? You just don't, don't do it. You got to do your own stuff.
[01:43:54] So he reaches down, grabs hold me, slings me up.
[01:43:57] Next thing he falls sideways.
[01:44:00] So he lets loose in my hand. So I take my hand and I grab up like this and I grab hold the saddle.
[01:44:05] Have my weapon here and I stick on this side. That horse takes off.
[01:44:09] Oh, no. Next thing I'm running next, he's like, oh, this thing in my leg.
[01:44:14] I look at my feet. They're both above my heads.
[01:44:18] I have my maps here and have my weapon here.
[01:44:20] And when I hit, it was like, I went, oh, shit.
[01:44:24] So he scampers off. Then he comes back. You okay?
[01:44:27] I said, no, man, I don't think I am.
[01:44:30] He gets off his horse and he said, well, let me get his little bag and he cuts my laces off and looks at my leg.
[01:44:36] And then I took my little 38 I had, you know, hand weapon.
[01:44:42] Doc Maynard was my corpsman, right? He's when you swapped out.
[01:44:45] He's the guy who got killed. Doc Maynard comes down.
[01:44:48] And by that time, another guy comes by on a horse and he says, what's going on?
[01:44:52] He says, I think this guy's got a fraction of a lelious.
[01:44:54] You know, it looks like a disulfillabila break.
[01:44:56] He's got pitopulse and I didn't know what any of that stuff was.
[01:44:59] I'm just a soldier, man.
[01:45:02] And so I said, so what's going on? How do you guys know this?
[01:45:07] Oh, we're doctors. We're up here on the little, I said, no.
[01:45:10] And so they split it and everything by the time Doc got there, I was already squirt away.
[01:45:15] He says, you have any drugs? I said, no, we don't have any drugs.
[01:45:19] He would give morphine, but then with the morphine shred, he always had to do the doc.
[01:45:22] He didn't want to do that. And so the doc said, well, here, and he gives me a pint of peach brandy.
[01:45:27] He says, drink this. Got in a little Jeep that the doc gave me.
[01:45:32] This kind of kept track of us.
[01:45:35] By the time I got to Balboa, man, I was jacked up.
[01:45:38] You know, so they had to wait, give me a block.
[01:45:41] And so then my platoon came because I was in the hospital and they all gave me a kiss goodbye, man.
[01:45:46] And this guy, Alan, took my job and I hated him.
[01:45:53] I was so envious and so hurt and so pissed off that he's got my job with my platoon and in that platoon,
[01:45:59] I with me, Hodge, me, Hodge, and I were the point man in that platoon, right?
[01:46:03] And I wanted, I wanted to go work.
[01:46:05] So that means I had to stand down again and all these guys that I was with, right?
[01:46:12] So then I had to do, it took me two months, right?
[01:46:15] So I'm in Balboa Hospital. I got my foot up like this, his CLT monitor once they found out who I was.
[01:46:21] Guys from K-Son were coming in, they were shot, jacked up, man.
[01:46:24] I'm sitting there watching them come in and they put this guy beside me and this little machine is going in.
[01:46:31] I mean, people were jacked up.
[01:46:33] I saw a war from that. I saw the damage.
[01:46:38] This machine goes off, stops, a little light.
[01:46:42] So I pushed the button, started back up again.
[01:46:47] So it happened about four times. It was like in the middle of the night. I pushed this button by myself.
[01:46:53] My team's gone and pulled the cord for the corpsman. He doesn't show up.
[01:46:59] Finally, when he does show up, I said, what do you, what do you need?
[01:47:02] I said, what's this?
[01:47:03] It went off. He went, what did you do?
[01:47:05] What did this happen? I said, I've been for four hours, right?
[01:47:08] So he grabs him, takes off.
[01:47:10] Then he comes back. This guy comes back about two days later.
[01:47:13] He's a Marine. He's got a patch on his eyes, legs jacked up and he's got wounds in here.
[01:47:19] He looks at me and says, you're the guy who's pushing the button?
[01:47:24] Oh yeah. Yeah.
[01:47:26] He said, I was drowning.
[01:47:31] This is when the button would go off.
[01:47:33] He says, I would start drowning.
[01:47:35] He says, you pushed the button and sucked that stuff out of my lungs.
[01:47:38] So he and I became good friends and I was only there for another.
[01:47:42] I went back and checked him out.
[01:47:44] Later on, he had like a floppy leg and his eyes missing.
[01:47:48] When I went back and saw him, he says, how are you doing?
[01:47:51] He said, I'm doing great, man.
[01:47:52] I said, someone's going to send me to MCRD.
[01:47:55] I said, really?
[01:47:56] Marine Corps Recruiting Station, right?
[01:47:58] He's going to receive troops.
[01:47:59] He says, yeah.
[01:48:00] He says, check this out.
[01:48:01] He's got his patch on his eye and goes like this.
[01:48:03] Marine Corps emblem inside his eye.
[01:48:05] He says, I'll be receiving those guys.
[01:48:07] He says, look me in the eye, boy.
[01:48:09] So he was a cool guy.
[01:48:12] So yeah, I miss my platoon.
[01:48:15] And so then when I'm there, I have a SEAL team one on there and this guy comes walking in.
[01:48:19] Got his Rolex, got his ball cap.
[01:48:22] And I look, he's cocking on jump boots and shit.
[01:48:24] I'm going, oh, it's a team guy.
[01:48:26] So I said, hey man, I was at the G-Dunk with the CBE.
[01:48:29] This is at the hospital?
[01:48:30] At the hospital.
[01:48:31] I said, I look at this guy and I say, hey man, is you in the teams?
[01:48:35] He says, yeah.
[01:48:37] I said, so am I.
[01:48:38] He goes, so what the fuck?
[01:48:41] And walks out.
[01:48:42] So I'm like, are you rude son of a bitch?
[01:48:47] You know, I mean, I'm pissed off.
[01:48:50] So I bet did about another month there.
[01:48:53] And then I left, right?
[01:48:54] Went back to the SEAL team.
[01:48:55] I said, okay, SP, you're back.
[01:48:57] Here, lockers 69.
[01:48:59] Go take it and change, put your new gear and stuff.
[01:49:02] I said, all right.
[01:49:03] So I go over there and I look at the lockers.
[01:49:05] They were like this.
[01:49:07] And like these spaces here and there was a window at the end and mine was at the end.
[01:49:11] So I go over there and I look.
[01:49:13] There was, when I go in, I walk by the lockers.
[01:49:16] There's that guy that told me, so what the fuck?
[01:49:20] So I walk by him.
[01:49:21] He just kind of licks at me.
[01:49:22] I don't know if you, you know, it just kind of looked at me.
[01:49:25] I kind of looked at him and I went and there's a name up there.
[01:49:27] So I grabbed it, pulled it off and I threw it in the shit can.
[01:49:31] And he goes, that was a good man.
[01:49:34] I said, so what the fuck?
[01:49:37] He looked at me, man, and it was like, we're going to dance.
[01:49:41] You know, we're going to dance.
[01:49:43] And I backed up into the corner and he just looked at me and he goes, fuck you.
[01:49:48] Turns around walks out and I went, wow, that was pretty intense, you know.
[01:49:53] And so then we go out and they said, okay, we're going to start signing the patoons.
[01:49:58] Alpha Bravo dot char echo, patoon, right?
[01:50:01] So they started naming names echo, patoon, despinoza, I'm going, oh, man, that's cool.
[01:50:06] So it goes on to, to, to, to, to, to, and then they call that guy's name.
[01:50:11] He comes walking to my patoon.
[01:50:13] I'm going, oh, you guys are both an echo platoon, both of us an echo platoon.
[01:50:17] And I pulled that name tag and threw it off.
[01:50:20] Then later on, I found out that he was with a guy named Anton that had gotten killed in a firefight.
[01:50:27] They McGuire rigged him out, he got hit two times.
[01:50:32] They ran, they went on two helicopters to an op and they dropped everybody off.
[01:50:39] So they were patrolling.
[01:50:41] They took Anton and moved him up forward and never really was never really a point man, right?
[01:50:48] But they hadn't moved him up out of, out of his out of where they normally does.
[01:50:53] He stepped out and in a jungle, there's a lot of times you, you just step out and it's a base camp, right?
[01:51:00] And, and if you're not really quiet, they know you're coming.
[01:51:04] And so he stepped out, they got engaged.
[01:51:07] He got shot, killed the two Vietnamese, another American and two guys wounded.
[01:51:14] I'm going to talk to my, my partner and I learned about this.
[01:51:18] So that was what the op was, right?
[01:51:22] So I didn't know that Anton had gotten killed and then I understood what had happened.
[01:51:30] We were in the San Platoon for three months and didn't talk to each other.
[01:51:35] I didn't talk to him. He didn't talk to me.
[01:51:37] We'd look, we'd work and do stuff and there was like the visual connection about what we're doing.
[01:51:43] But it was like hard.
[01:51:49] It was hard. I'm not going to, it was like, I don't know, like two invisible forces that had no way to communicate.
[01:52:00] It was like a big wall, you know, and it went down.
[01:52:03] I'm walking to the trade winds to go to the trade winds to have a beer and he pulls by in his car.
[01:52:09] Reason he was in there because he got drunk and broke out his teeth.
[01:52:12] That's why he was there.
[01:52:14] And the only words he ever said, Espy.
[01:52:17] Yeah, he says, uh, where are you going?
[01:52:21] I said, I'm going to the trade wind.
[01:52:23] You want to ride?
[01:52:25] I said, I hate walking, man.
[01:52:27] I said, yeah.
[01:52:29] So I get in there, didn't say a word. We drove up to the bar, right?
[01:52:33] Parked right in front. We get in. There's nobody in there.
[01:52:36] Right?
[01:52:37] Well, except for tobacco Lewis.
[01:52:39] No, we tobacco, right?
[01:52:41] The guy, I'll tell you about, I'm kind of digressing.
[01:52:43] Went in the same place with me, Macintosh and Garcia came in there.
[01:52:47] And then he said, all we need is teams more ends and right.
[01:52:50] So I told you about that, right?
[01:52:52] Yeah. So, so that was tobacco Lewis.
[01:52:55] Yeah. Okay. We ratted him off.
[01:52:57] That was that goddamn tobacco Lewis.
[01:52:59] And so, so we come in and, and, and, and I could, and he's still sitting down there.
[01:53:04] Right. So we walk in and he just kind of looks at us and hi, it says, uh, you want a beer?
[01:53:09] I said, yeah. And there, and there was a Kagan in the trade.
[01:53:13] And it's high at the name of the guy that you had not been able to communicate with.
[01:53:17] Yeah. I love him.
[01:53:18] And now he says, hey, you want a beer?
[01:53:20] He's my best friend. Yeah. In the teams. Yeah.
[01:53:23] I shouldn't have ratted him off, but he's, he's, he's okay.
[01:53:26] So he says, you want a beer?
[01:53:30] I said, yeah. So he pours a beer picture and guys would buy Kags a beer for getting divorced,
[01:53:37] getting married, uh, getting promoted, getting demoted, getting killed in Vietnam,
[01:53:45] coming back from anything. There's always, there was always a Kagan the afternoon. Monday, you know, Wednesday.
[01:53:51] Yeah. So there was always one there. So there was always a Kags.
[01:53:56] So like, but three o'clock to probably about five, I mean, guys,
[01:53:59] they'd all get in and drink a bunch of beer and then it would go on.
[01:54:02] So we drank that cake, that, that, that picture of beer.
[01:54:07] And then he said, uh, then I said, Hey, you want another picture?
[01:54:10] He goes, yeah, sure. So I poured him a beer. We sat there sitting at the corner.
[01:54:16] I'm sitting right here. He's right here. The door is right there.
[01:54:19] You always, I always sat there because you don't have, you know, you don't ever walk in that door either without kind of check.
[01:54:25] Cause you could get hit pretty easy. I mean, there's some good fights in there.
[01:54:28] It was wild place. And, um, she wouldn't hear about Anton.
[01:54:34] I said, yeah. So he told me about the helicopters, about getting hit and getting out and saying, man, I don't know how we flew out of there.
[01:54:41] You know, everybody was wounded. The helicopter was shot. Everything was, he said, and he didn't get hit.
[01:54:46] He's never been hit. Right?
[01:54:48] Uh, I was with him.
[01:54:53] Uh, anyway, you're sharing that story with me, you know, and then he's crying and I'm crying.
[01:55:01] And guys, it was so beautiful about the bar was man, the other guys would come in and they go, uh, they got a thing going on.
[01:55:08] Not, not interrupt you and not look down on you.
[01:55:11] Guys are having their own memorials times for themselves in your own space, in your own and respecting it.
[01:55:18] You know, that was, it was kind of like the womb. I mean, that bar was kind of like where guys would come in with pain.
[01:55:25] They would come in with anger. They would come in proud that they have kids, you know, that it was, it was a place that, that everybody felt safe, you know.
[01:55:34] And, uh, so he, that's when he became my teammate, you know, of him sharing that with me, you know, and we did a talk one time for,
[01:55:47] Seawolf gunships, you know, come to Texas and he says, Espy, you want to tell me that story about the Seawolf gunships?
[01:55:53] And I go, what do you tell? He goes, Oh, no, you see, you like, you like talking. You see, you tell me.
[01:55:59] So I said, all right, so we got shot at, you know, we were on a dyke and these guys shot at us.
[01:56:05] And so we're, and Hyatt had his shit together. The officer we had was a young guy, right?
[01:56:10] So he's like, do we engage him? You know, and I look out there and he goes, that's, see that's, you mean, engaged?
[01:56:19] Me shooting. Engaged who? The guys that were shooting at us on this little kind of an up like a little dyke, you know, we were up on top of the dyke.
[01:56:27] So they were shooting up at us. Well, the first thing is somebody shooting at you down from down below. They got something, you know, but, but he was a brand new officer.
[01:56:35] Actually, he, he relieved Boston Campbell, who'd stepped on a booby trap. That was, that was another op that we were on.
[01:56:42] Lit him up. Point man got some strap on his ass and Doc Maynard was with us and he had me walk the point out.
[01:56:49] And, but I'm kind of getting a little cross ways here, but where was I at?
[01:57:00] So I mean, just basically you were talking about the trade wins and how that's kind of when you guys got tight. And I mean, I suppose the next thing is so you're doing a work up and preparing to go back to Vietnam or
[01:57:12] preparing to go your first deployment to Vietnam. Right. Right. And, and was that was that like a six month cycle? You go to Nile and there's a six month cycle.
[01:57:20] You go to Nile and Nile and you go queer market, do the jump thing you do. You're just mostly, you know, patrolling.
[01:57:27] How many guys you got in your platoon? 14? Yeah, 14 guys. And, and he told me, he says, yes, he says, you stay with me. You won't get hurt.
[01:57:36] Sorry. This is my seed daddy, man. He my partner. Is it high? Yeah. And so matter of fact, I have this watch because of him. We come back from Vietnam.
[01:57:46] We go under. He says, how much money you got? I said, I don't know. So catch the money out. So I got the 125 bucks. He grabs it and say, hey, man, give me money.
[01:57:55] I said, we're going out and partying tonight. I said, nope. You're coming with me. So we go to the PX. I said, I ain't nothing in the PX.
[01:58:04] I want. He says, yeah. So we go in there and he looks at the lady says I want that one and that one. Two Rolexes. She puts them up.
[01:58:13] I said, lady says, I don't want to Rolex. So she puts it down.
[01:58:17] So finally says lady, she puts it up. I said, lady and she goes, little fella, he's a lot bigger than you. And today you're buying yourself a Rolex watch, you know, it was that kind of a thing.
[01:58:31] And we went, we took a break one time went to now Bay is where he had operated. He had this was his third trip to with SEAL team and one with UD.
[01:58:46] T and they threw us out. They threw us out of the base for fighting. So we had nowhere to stay except for places that he knew, you know, back out in town.
[01:59:01] Yeah, out in town. Yeah. Yeah. So we were out in town hiding. We were out there hiding, right? And so at night, during the day, we'd kind of hang out and then at night, the Vietcong would come in.
[01:59:11] So we'd be sheltered in these places and the Vietcong would be in these places that we were at during the day partying and drinking and dating girls and or whatever.
[01:59:20] And we were, we were hiding. And then in the morning, the Vietcong would leave and then we'd wake up, you know, for three days, we did that that close to the enemy is cool.
[01:59:30] You know, they don't even know that you're there, you know. And so that was our, that was our relationship.
[01:59:38] So when you're, you finish your work up and now it's time to, now it's time to fly to Vietcong. Now it's time to fly.
[01:59:46] Did you leave from North Island? We left from North Island. Well, like a C-130? C-130. Yeah, the little one, little C-117. Oh, dang. Okay. Cargo plane, right?
[01:59:54] So that's, that's where we went and we stage all our gear and everything. We get in there and the, boom, it's loud.
[02:00:01] What year was this?
[02:00:02] 69. It was March, March, yeah, March of 69. March of 69. So we, we, we getting ready to roll, looking at the rivets and stuff, looking at the chief that comes in there to fly the airplanes.
[02:00:15] Big old Billy and got his chief's hat and. And he's the pilot? He's the pilot. Oh, that's pretty cool. And you look out the window and like the airplane has all this grease and oil and stuff.
[02:00:26] We go flying like this. Next thing is like, goes like, what the hell, you know, we turn off and, and so we get ourselves back together.
[02:00:36] Goes, what's happening? He says, oh, I was looking at the lights. He says, look at the green light and the red light, the green light and the red light.
[02:00:44] Pretty soon I was like, well, the green light and the red light, they're on the wrong sides. He wasn't following. It was coming right at him, right?
[02:00:50] So he turns off. So I'm going, oh, man, I don't even get to Vietnam. That's happening. So then we get to Hawaii, right?
[02:00:57] So we go in and hi, hi, it says, uh, hey, SP, I see this, uh, let's have a my type drink. He got this. Is it cool? All right.
[02:01:06] We go in, man. Next thing you know, I'm waking up, I look down and there's a tomato stuck on Hyatt's face.
[02:01:15] I was on the upper rack and I'd thrown up. He was on his face. Both in Campbell. We go, sounds the bitches. I told you, we're kind of looking around and
[02:01:24] Hyatt gets up his hair sticking up in the air, you know, and I'm looking at him and I told you guys, we're leaving at zero, 600. You guys are late.
[02:01:32] The chop, I mean, the hair planes rolling up and the number, and they says on the rest of God damn, but to never told you guys, God get your asses.
[02:01:40] We're like grabbing stuff, you know, like grabbing my boots, putting stuff on. And I asked the boss, I said, hey, boss, who won the my type drink?
[02:01:50] He got who won the my type drink cause his son of a bitch. As he says, you guys got drunk. Then you got in a fight in a bar.
[02:01:57] They threw you out and then you guys stole a damn bus. The Navy bus, you know, they're driving around and we threw the sailors off the bus to
[02:02:06] stole the bus and then they the short patrol tracked us down and we got in a fight with those guys on the bus. Then they arrested it.
[02:02:13] One night in Hawaii right there was one night. One night in Hawaii. They need to get you guys to Vietnam stats.
[02:02:19] Yeah, we were and there's another platoon that was before us. I think it's I can't remember who's between. I don't think it was crowd ads.
[02:02:27] But anyway, their officer was in Vietnam waiting for them. Well, they got in the same fight, but it was the whole bar in that fight.
[02:02:34] And I went to Barber's Point to see that bar. It's now a it's now a gym. But they got there and they got in a fight.
[02:02:41] The officer sitting over there back in Vietnam waiting for his guys to show them where they all they had. And he gets this communique that comes
[02:02:47] says, we don't know who they are. We don't know where they came from. But we know they're headed your way. And those guys have gotten a fight and
[02:02:56] they started a fire in the bar. And the whole mean. And if you think about it, right, think about something is going to go to war.
[02:03:05] You're internalizing that shit. And so you are loose. You know, it's like and so you want to try to take these people and tell them that no, you, you, it's, it's
[02:03:18] follow the rules.
[02:03:20] You can try. Yeah, that that is something that in in the military, certainly in SEAL teams, you know, you're like you're parachuting, you're
[02:03:31] diving, they're doing a bunch of dangerous stuff. And when you're young, you're like, well, you know, I could die tomorrow. So I'm going to have a good time tonight.
[02:03:36] That's what that's what we're doing. And the consequences, right? The consequences of mistake are brutal. They're not you can if you're working on
[02:03:44] an officer, cut your finger, whatever. But we we fuck up out there. We mess up out there. And the same thing when it came on the fire department, you know, two guys got killed in my fire
[02:03:54] training. And I thought, okay, Vietnam, probably going to get killed. Got on fire department, maybe. But this is really kind of a lame kind of job. I mean, you fight some fire, you do.
[02:04:05] I saw it totally different when I got there, right? It transitioned. It changed for me about especially when I went up in rank, it's like being a platoon leader. You know, the other guys do whatever they want to do in the
[02:04:18] platoon. But as a platoon officer and the platoon leader, then as a battalion chief and as in the fire department, I'm responsible for them to keep them alive. I become Chief Gustafels wife. You know, and so yeah, it was you really
[02:04:41] know, I've been talking a lot about what that quit that means and those consequences and what's and what's real and what is it to be a real frogman. Right. They're the machismo crazy cats out there. But they are they good
[02:04:56] operators? Are they running on on their ego? Or are they running on the teams? You know, do you love the teams? Or do you love yourself? Right. And a lot of the cats love themselves.
[02:05:09] They're willing to make that or create that for for some reason. I look at some of the events, you know, of how guys are getting killed now and I'm thinking it's like when I when we got when we got shot at and then the
[02:05:23] officer says, we take him under fire. We look at him and go, you fucking crazy. If we take him under fire, they're going to know how many of us there are. Right. So then we start receiving fire. So we cause an
[02:05:36] extraction. There was nobody coming to get us the armies. Sometimes the army slick guys would not come in, but a seawolf. They're coming. Well, they're coming. You know, I've had quite a few seawolf pilots on here. Yeah, it's
[02:05:51] awesome. And so when they lock and load and they're done, they're dumping their ammunition just to get four cats up. I mean that that whole that whole thing is on fire, right? So we're running. So we had no air support until those seawolves guys who were
[02:06:04] coming. And a couple Air Force guys. Yeah, we're in our little phantoms. And if you need some help, we can we can help you. And so I'm at the back end, right? Everybody's running. Blow everything up on the backside of the blue blue
[02:06:17] blue strobe, right? So I got a blue strobe lit up and I'm running got I got m 60. I'm running heavy running m 60 and I hide something headed me and Richard's he married his sister, his Richard's sister, height, Richard's
[02:06:29] sister. And we're all we're all we're good mates, man. I mean, there's some bars in San Diego that remember us. Just you're still still not allowed in. Oh, just by being crazy. Yeah. So I'm running and I fall in a hall. I mean, and these guys Air Force
[02:06:46] guys are coming flying like this, right? And when they're lighting their stuff up, it looks like it looks like it's certainly about 1015 feet up of the air because you're running. But they don't tell you like you see the movies, they don't
[02:06:59] mean they don't mean you're getting support. They don't talk about the in those days, the links are rolling out. So you're running along and all the case is this stuff is beaten the hell out of you, you're running like this, you know, try not to get them down your shirt, you're running and they're flying is like two of them.
[02:07:17] And in the water and in mean the casings and I fell in this hole and it wasn't even if they could hear me because the whole world behind me, I feel the heat and everything behind me blowing up. They just stopped.
[02:07:31] They ran back. One grabbed the barrel, the other grab the butt, lift me out of the hole. They took off running. And I'm like, your feet on the ground.
[02:07:41] Every once in a while, one would hear them finally I got my feet, you know, and then we got over to the on the seawall was locked loading dumping all the ammunition on the other side the side that we were coming on they weren't right.
[02:07:54] And so we jumped in and then they started dumping it all and then that how I was trying to and everything everything's going well I told that story and then when and I told me to tell it with the seawolf guys right is in Texas.
[02:08:09] And so then he says you tell the story is alright so then I feel okay with tell the story as close as I could get it because everybody has their own story.
[02:08:18] And then I saw how I get up and he walked over up to the podium, you know, when I was there and he comes up beside me, he says, well that opted as we just told you about he says I didn't realize how much that helicopter meant to me.
[02:08:38] And how safe I felt once my hand touched that helicopter. Then I knew I was okay.
[02:08:46] And I never, I never ever thought that because he's always so calm.
[02:08:50] He's running, we all are put to wear a bunch of calm people, you know, and that and when you have that in your platoon, except when you're yelling and they're running away from you know I'm going to God dang whole you know like, you know, everybody is like that it's that calmness.
[02:09:07] That keeps you right. And if your officers calm, even pose a camera when he got lit up, you know, he really did a real easy transfer to doc Maynard.
[02:09:18] And they they an Air Force helicopter with doctors happen to be coming in. We were in a booby trapped area.
[02:09:24] So we're trying to secure the area. We're receiving fire from a little hooch down there.
[02:09:29] And me and hi at lit that up. That up was that whole thing. The whole dynamics of like when I wrote that piece about the flash right, the flash of war, you know that whether you're creating it or whether it's being created for you.
[02:09:43] The the inside warriors working and figuring it out. The outside warrior is non forgiving and violent.
[02:09:55] Right. And they're both standing out. And I think, you know, the in the little boy in there is is is watching that happen.
[02:10:05] And and I think the whole war piece is totally alien, because that's not where we really want to go. So those of us that pay that price, you know, it's going to cost you something, even in the training because pain is going to cost you something.
[02:10:20] When I got back from Vietnam doing my out in the world. I thought that was me. That's just the way that I am, you know, I'm five and all that kind of stuff. That's who Espanol is.
[02:10:33] It was all my behaviors. I I confused my behaviors for who I who I am. And I let loose of it because then I was alone again. I lost all my teammates.
[02:10:43] I wasn't like between when I lost them that time when I came from Vietnam and I left, right? I'm alone again. Right. And it's taking me now to come back to that space of understanding my life.
[02:10:59] Right. That's crazy. I'm 75 years old trying to figure this stuff out. And then I look at guys like you you got your podcast you got your thing going to do to if they had a MMA when I was coming back from the mod have been
[02:11:12] to I was going to five points endeavor to fight mostly black guys because that's where the danger was. They had guns and knives. And that was you're going to fight in Boulder right with the hippies. I mean there's
[02:11:25] maybe there wasn't much. So you might go to might go to might go to this place called Peggy's High Low and you get a hookup with a cowboy. You know, at least when you're fighting those guys is in the dirt.
[02:11:40] You know, but and I remember going in there and this one big brothers in there because I'm looking because I'm checking security right. The other thing is looking at the environment.
[02:11:51] Those challenges are looking at the bar and where's the security at where's these guys whom I'm watching out for. It was like being working with the pro program and knowing that you had the 50 guys you got probably eight or nine of them that are
[02:12:04] working with the con that are that are two hoys or they're they're they're working both sides. That was exciting. That was the cool thing about when I was with my partner and I work in that program versus working the
[02:12:18] Vietnamese seals we knew and I did that with two East Coast guys first. So I worked with them and then they took another West Coast guy in my platoon that worked with those guys with the Vietnamese seals. And then they said oh by the way you guys have that expertise. Why don't you and me and me and
[02:12:34] Bill we went work for the Pruse. We did that. That's where I leave my cousin right. That whole thing that whole challenging thing about depending upon the spirit and understanding the awareness about who you are is exciting.
[02:12:50] You know and I wasn't getting that you know. So I was creating the tension outside warrior creates the tension so that and that's who you think you are and it's and so then you live your life out like that.
[02:13:03] You know you're a frog man. You know I'm a I'm a genuine. We say genuine barrel chested anti magnetic chrome plated Rolex wearing K bar carrying root and two and parachute and ever from frog man who can take 40 men 40 days to track me down. I can see in the dark
[02:13:20] breathing the water and I can fly you know that whole that whole thing you know. And so it's so that's who that's what I thought I was when I got on the fire department. I'm going to look at all these.
[02:13:35] These guys don't even train you know and then two guys get killed in training then they're blaming everybody. Oh you know you're just this and that and then none of you guys wanted to train.
[02:13:44] This is our fault. So then when my buddy got killed is kind of like what do I do here. The word sacrificial responsibility comes up.
[02:13:55] Sacrificial responsibility. Right. Christ. Jesus man. He didn't have to die. He's God and everything else when he's going to go. Should I got to die for these morons because they ain't going to figure it out.
[02:14:08] Right. So here you are. I'm going to Vietnam. I'm going with these guys. Why. That's not what your country could do for you but what you can do for your country.
[02:14:19] So you go OK. I'm here. Where can I go. My coach told me about being a frog man. Right. Then you get there and you see these guys and you see these instructors bigger than life and nobody knew who the seal was.
[02:14:34] I knew what a frog man was. I wanted to put him where my swim jokes and get a suntan and all that stuff. Then there's the choice. You choose to do that or not. Are you going to choose to be part of this family or not.
[02:14:46] And there are kids in their own families right now that are choosing. They don't want to contribute to that. About the reputation of your family.
[02:14:55] My dad told me one time and said Gibi said the only thing that ever gave you was my last name. Don't be dishonor on it. Right. And this is the same guy in fourth grade education. Right.
[02:15:08] The biggest thing that I learned from him was part of preparing me for the teams. We were hunting. My dad said Gibi we shot a no we tracked him down. It's getting cold. It's night.
[02:15:20] I'm freezing. We're poor. We may have cotton gloves. There's none of this cabela shit all that. Right. And we're two pair of two pair of Levi's. It's cold. I'm 10 years old.
[02:15:32] With my dad. We shot him. We got to find him. We're Indians. We don't leave. We don't leave stuff out here. We'll track him. We'll find him.
[02:15:40] I didn't realize because of our subsistence we we killed an elk hunting in the winter time and we fished all summer long. That's how we ate and we would plant stuff in the garden and we'd raise chickens and rabbits.
[02:15:52] That's how we ate. That's not a bad diet but hell man you get tired of getting eggs you get plucking chickens and skin and rabbits and he has me up there hunting right.
[02:16:02] I got dad come on you know it's just no to weak track him down there he is there is the elk so we're tracking you can see a little bit of the blood the winds blowing is getting cold and everything else.
[02:16:15] Sometimes I was fishing with him at night I didn't want to be out there freezing my butt off man and it's when I would get cold out in the Coronado man I remember being a barker down freezing my ass off with my dad.
[02:16:27] I never thought about what the temperature of the water was but I knew it was cold so so I'm.
[02:16:34] We find the elk and he says okay give me says.
[02:16:38] Now you got to go back and get the hunters get the rest of the guys Mr. Mr. Chavez my brother and Mr. Gomez you know I was going.
[02:16:47] Dad yeah dad I said I don't know you know he says look grabs me look at me right in the eyes he says listen.
[02:16:57] What you're feeling is fear I understand it.
[02:17:04] Don't be afraid.
[02:17:12] Okay so I take off you know and I went and it isn't like left and right so then when you're talking about the spirit of God right this whatever is the guide you and when you're in combat whenever you're doing stuff a lot of guys.
[02:17:25] A lot of guys have this a lot of times they think it's them but then there's other things that put you in a different place and the only thing that.
[02:17:33] That you survived another guys didn't is time and chance right and making a decision when we're the other thing however it gets you there whatever it is and you can't feel sorry that you survived and they didn't that's life right.
[02:17:48] So my dad sends me to go find these guys I'm going I'm looking at the track and there was like I don't know where to go.
[02:17:57] And then in here is like when I go and I find it I find my dad shot an elk and I grab them and they come on yeah okay they follow me out they grabbed her guns they grab poles they.
[02:18:09] We go out there and we find my dad and he's out there smoking cigarette looking at him.
[02:18:17] It's a you know now that's a big elk you know and my dad had had me we always carried a little bag that had a hatchet bone saw and his knives in there right that's what he gave me before I told me go get a hundred right.
[02:18:31] So I went up to where my dad was and he grabbed my face like this you know looking down at me.
[02:18:39] I said I knew you could do that you know and when I when I read like in the in the that we're God when when Christ got baptized right that the word says that.
[02:18:53] So this is my son.
[02:18:55] Who I'm well pleased.
[02:18:58] I thought I thought when my dad grabbed my face and told me that I thought wow man it was my responsibility.
[02:19:09] But my dad just surprised sacrificing my life for a year to go get those guys you know.
[02:19:15] But but but you know what I'm saying it's like.
[02:19:22] Yeah and people say well it's a calling to be a frog man well it's a there's a thing I think our egos.
[02:19:29] Well can I make it can I not some guys can say I never had any doubt right that they've been supported with their families all the time right.
[02:19:37] My family supported when we were writing the letter when I was going back into forty two about mom I really want I want this more than anything in the world right.
[02:19:48] And my mom knew now fifty years later right they did that class on two thirty.
[02:19:55] My mom says I knew you were in Seelting but I didn't know that's I didn't know that's what you were doing right.
[02:20:01] That's even after Vietnam right.
[02:20:03] I didn't know that that's what you were doing.
[02:20:05] But I do remember my mom actually my sister said oh give me a yes mom almost got in a fight with Miss Martinez.
[02:20:13] Really she said yes she said she told me you're going to Vietnam and she said well all he is is going to do is be fodder.
[02:20:21] You told me my son's father I'll kick the hell out of you know that not always supported my mom was kind of domineering and kind of mean really.
[02:20:33] But but but I knew they were always there for me you know and even when I came back in Vietnam my dad.
[02:20:42] You know after my work up after I did all my stuff.
[02:20:47] Vietnam veterans against war the young Socialist Republic I'm going to school at CU I got a letter when I was getting back from Vietnam to wrestle at the University of Colorado.
[02:20:57] A dream I thought was already gone I was a hundred eighteen pounds right so I'm barely making hundred twenty nine didn't really have to cut I must still just a little guy.
[02:21:07] These guys my kids we go to reunions they sit there looking and they finally got to the age where they went dad yes just.
[02:21:15] You're the littlest guy here.
[02:21:17] I'm the little guy of my life but you know when I when I got that letter it's like a whole new thing.
[02:21:26] I didn't fit I wasn't brown enough to be brown I wasn't white enough to be fight I was a Vietnam vet.
[02:21:32] I just got done killing a commie for mommy with my teammates and stuff like that and they're telling me Viva La Raza that's Lon and all that is like I'm an American.
[02:21:42] You know my people have always been from here and it doesn't even have to be that they're from here but this is what I feel in here it's from my heart from my soul it didn't come but it did the ego is yeah I.
[02:21:55] Be one of those frog man to start getting shot at and then you're asking yourself what.
[02:22:03] What am I doing here and then you come out with all your teammates everybody you know like after the operate you also they're looking to kill their and go.
[02:22:11] Wow that was pretty intense you know.
[02:22:17] And the guy that was always pretty cool was Lou you know when I got when I got hit you know he was pissed at me.
[02:22:28] What'd you get when you get hit I picked up some shrapnel by Cambodia you know we would we'd be on these barges and they'd float down river and we'd operate off him.
[02:22:38] And this one you got there that was the first thing you got tasked with was the first thing you got tasked with when you got on the ground was your job would you put to know operate as a platoon or do you immediately get shaved off and.
[02:22:50] No first of all like for the first three months you know we were all operate as all platoon operations down in Sadek off of PBRs right.
[02:22:57] And then what were you doing we guys doing ambushes raids ambushes prisoner snatch we like find out with the tax collectors that we'd use the intel and capture them.
[02:23:09] Who's getting the intel the were you guys getting it yourselves.
[02:23:12] It's mostly yeah well we had like the Nilo out of Saigon some of our officers Captain Shiball was Mirra Anderson was there some other team guys they were getting the information.
[02:23:22] So you'd get a target package like oh here's here's a grid location for a little village somewhere yeah and they'd be like that's it's this hooch over here is where this tax collector is this via con tax collector the VCI yeah this is where he's supposed to be right.
[02:23:38] So we go down and get him or we would just go sit and watch and sit there for two days and see what boats come where they come just hidden.
[02:23:47] So you do you do just like a reconnaissance doing this wait and watch do an assessment wait and watch how many weapons how are you mostly going in by the water.
[02:23:56] In this first three months yeah like just waterborne operations yeah on PBRs and our own LSS C's and LCPL it's a big boat with a minigun on the back couple 60s and.
[02:24:08] And so would you insert at night they just kind of drop you off most of them at night.
[02:24:12] We liked operating at night more than during the day and then we sit during the day and watch it all we even know we even know we were there.
[02:24:20] How many guys would you have out most recon well would you take the whole squad yeah we take a platoon depending upon.
[02:24:28] Like if we were expecting something big or we just do seven man teams and were you usually a point man as point and rear can like go back and forth you know.
[02:24:39] So when I put it but when our point man went on our he went to Australia and then I ran point for a while would you carry for a weapon you carry a stoner.
[02:24:48] Yeah a stoner except when I was with the Vietnamese and I carried in 60 you know how can you how can we carry an M60 when you're with the Vietnamese.
[02:24:56] How can we switch from a stoner to a 60 because I just wanted something bigger something bigger like this like the son like they had their M16s right.
[02:25:04] They didn't they didn't have stoners when we were Vietnamese they didn't have stoners there was only 16s but I just felt.
[02:25:12] I thought it's something big yeah you know and you want to pig yeah and with the two Vietnamese there was another Vietnamese guy there was only one.
[02:25:20] I'm 60 so I made two 60s right and that's just I don't know if it's a rule I don't know if it's a logical thinking but that's and then my buddy Bill he was a radio man.
[02:25:37] So working with the Vietnamese is an advisor I dug you know.
[02:25:41] Yeah when you were doing the first three months so you're doing ops.
[02:25:46] You guys are carrying compared to what we have to carry now the modern guys with body armor and ready everybody's carrying the radio everyone's carrying body armor everyone's wearing a helmet everyone has night vision.
[02:25:57] It's like even the weapons because you get your weapon but then on your weapon you put a laser and you put a scope and it is if you put a light like everything's just you guys look like super slick compared to us we were we were quiet.
[02:26:11] We're a pair of Levi's couple you know our stuff where some guys were the stuff on the outside but if you went around the wrong side you'd want to put your stuff on inside to keep from getting muddy put your bandoliers on the inside.
[02:26:23] Yeah you were your your oh your web gear.
[02:26:27] Well we did what if you carried if you if you if you did it like this right if you strapped them on there you didn't really wear web gear right.
[02:26:36] You could wear the harness right just the harness and then other guys had their vests made up like what you wear now the best guys would go to the parachute loft and have them created right for their.
[02:26:48] M16 magazines and things like that.
[02:26:52] So you were wearing jeans though.
[02:26:54] This is the one this is the one bullshit thing about all these guys and these frog men seal team guys right.
[02:27:02] Oh yeah because it was better than the BDU's and all that bullshit.
[02:27:06] You were you were Levi's and they're wet and they're muddy and they're heavy and you get chafed and all that and try to take a shit with a pair of Levi's.
[02:27:16] You know so why'd you wear them because it looked cool combat qualified man you want to combat qualified pair of Levi's.
[02:27:25] So when you got home right it makes more sense right when you got home.
[02:27:30] You walk along with Levi's man you know that that was the main reason the delta these are from the delta man.
[02:27:38] These are whatever there's on five combat ops you know what I mean that's what it was about.
[02:27:43] I make a pair of jeans right now and we call them Delta 68's.
[02:27:47] Oh yeah we make a pair of jeans and we call them Delta 68's in honor of you guys wearing them back in the day.
[02:27:54] Yeah so yeah that's that was why you know because there's nothing nothing cooler than walking downtown San Diego or downtown Coronado with four guys that have combat qualified Levi's on.
[02:28:06] And you're going to run into some Marines are going to sit there and look at you like it's just you know even these watches would get you in a fight with them.
[02:28:16] I was sitting at the daylight cafe down in Coronado.
[02:28:21] No oh the day and night cafe day and night cafe a little long booth.
[02:28:24] Yeah I've been there.
[02:28:25] I'm sitting there with me and me and Hyatt right so we're eating and this guy comes up behind says oh so you look like you're one of those little wet back frog man.
[02:28:33] So I'm like oh shit.
[02:28:36] It's going to be one of those nights.
[02:28:38] It's going to be one of those nights and Hyatt looks like a mother fuckers you're going to call him with wet back and be me's is not you and I don't call him that.
[02:28:47] I told him I said Lou I said be cool man it's alright.
[02:28:51] So I get done here and says I'm gonna kick the shit out of him.
[02:28:54] Okay.
[02:28:56] So I just almost finished.
[02:28:59] So I finished up and I turned around.
[02:29:05] Big boy.
[02:29:07] Oh it's a big guy.
[02:29:08] I went hey man I'm going to tell you something.
[02:29:10] And so when I did that I just went him behind his neck and the other one underneath his throat and I hung on.
[02:29:17] He moved and my heels were still arched on the wall and I hung on and then Hyatt jumps on top of the bar karate right.
[02:29:27] So yeah stay away from the mother fuckers.
[02:29:30] You know I'm just hanging on you know all this kind of stuff you know and those guys are looking at Lou you know and he's like no.
[02:29:36] Like Bruce Lee what everything and they all like.
[02:29:38] Like that you know so finally the guy they choked him out right to hung on and came around and choked him out.
[02:29:45] Now I got Matt back hands him my watch pops off into the street right.
[02:29:51] So I kick him in my shoe goes off into the street.
[02:29:55] You just secure your gear better.
[02:29:59] Hyatt just looks at me like that you know come on ask me let's leave this joint so we go out and I pick up my shoe and I put it on.
[02:30:07] I put it on this way so we always thinking right.
[02:30:11] So we walked to the corner and we get out there and he says let's look so we pick up the Christ.
[02:30:16] So they come in so not yet.
[02:30:18] He said well let's get out of here before that big somewhat bitch wakes up.
[02:30:21] Because I got him by surprise you know but but but that's when you grab hold is like grab and hold of the tiger right.
[02:30:29] You know that if you let loose he's going to jack you up you know.
[02:30:34] So you know so you guys would run recon look at a target and then when you were going to go hit the target.
[02:30:42] What was that.
[02:30:43] What was the normal profile of a mission like that.
[02:30:45] You take Sam pans in did you go in the night to your cool off.
[02:30:49] We did we did work with the program.
[02:30:52] This is a tip.
[02:30:53] This is a an operation right.
[02:30:56] Explain what the proof is.
[02:30:58] It's province reconnaissance units right.
[02:31:00] So these are Vietnamese.
[02:31:02] They were Vietnamese.
[02:31:04] They were not seals.
[02:31:05] The seal program had its own stuff.
[02:31:07] Vietnamese so they had Vietnamese seals and then they also had the PRU province reconnaissance units and they work for the company.
[02:31:14] Right.
[02:31:15] They had a case worker that usually in charge of them and senior officer American officer or an enlisted right.
[02:31:22] My buddy and I relieved those guys and he was E4 and I think I was E4 right.
[02:31:28] But we were operators right.
[02:31:30] So how many people are in a PRU how many Vietnamese did you have in one of those groups.
[02:31:35] 40 in the group.
[02:31:36] So there's 40 Vietnamese.
[02:31:38] There's and there's two of you.
[02:31:40] Two of us American advisors right and then the case worker and then an interpreter maybe two interpreters and out of that 40 probably about five or six of them you can count on being in Vietnam.
[02:31:50] Did you live with them.
[02:31:52] Yeah.
[02:31:53] You lived with them on a bay like a like a villa type thing and yeah you just stayed with them.
[02:32:00] And then what was the op tempo like.
[02:32:02] Well probably you know we'd go out.
[02:32:07] It depended on the that was what was spooky about it because a lot of their intel came from them.
[02:32:13] Right.
[02:32:14] So they could set you up.
[02:32:16] They could set you the the guys in the company could set you up to be hit so you had to kind of figure things out and that happened to us a couple times.
[02:32:24] That was and we got hit.
[02:32:26] We figured out that was two guys that were kind of the when they were around things happened when they weren't around.
[02:32:38] So what did you do about that.
[02:32:40] Well I told the one guy I went my interpreter says to be a thing on like saw what you know they come to know they come to you know I don't like him.
[02:32:52] I think he's a very bad man.
[02:32:54] And says if you see you know and then did you see what's happening with this guy goes come go.
[02:33:01] He says I take care of it.
[02:33:03] So we have another op.
[02:33:05] The guy didn't come back.
[02:33:07] So because he my interpreter that guy was and he works with my cousin right was good and trustworthy.
[02:33:15] And that's it.
[02:33:16] See some were good and trusty somehow they're there the sacrificial responsibility the thing that they feel from the heart was right on and others and others were victims.
[02:33:25] They're in the military by being a victim in the war is going where they're going to go.
[02:33:30] Where they're going to go.
[02:33:32] So you were about to you were about to tell about an op like a standard op that you did with the PRU.
[02:33:37] Okay yeah one of our guys seal team one guy comes up to us and says hey we need some gunners right.
[02:33:45] I have like I have two boats probably about six guys in each boat we're going to do a pro op we're going to go get these tax collectors right.
[02:33:53] All I need you guys to do be shooters.
[02:33:56] All right so my officer well like LCPO black mac was with me me hi at black mac.
[02:34:04] I don't know if Macintosh was on it or not.
[02:34:07] But so here we are in the sandpans for sandpans right there to black mac another guy and me and hi and we're going to we're going to take the bodies we're going to we're going to tie what we're going to take the bodies.
[02:34:23] Launch off of a set off of a PBR in sandpans cruise up this little river.
[02:34:29] It's nighttime it's nighttime you guys are you guys dressed like Vietnamese are you guys in black.
[02:34:34] No you guys just well see that was our platoons to those some guys were black sometimes we're black pajamas were Levi's other guys be wearing green tops.
[02:34:43] You're just you kind of mix and match always we did a blocking force one time and the army guys is who the fuck you guys you know hi says.
[02:34:52] Well we said we're we're frogmen.
[02:34:56] But there's a whole we're going to we're going to we're going to kill a colonel in his helicopter you know but we didn't but so the the I'm glad you didn't.
[02:35:06] So was I high it was a gun up like that I'm going to shoot we're all going to shoot this guy.
[02:35:11] Why was the colonel doing.
[02:35:13] We were we got ambushed the army we were we're doing a blocking force behind an army that's the other thing too we'd work with some army so we're doing a blocking force an army unit.
[02:35:21] They got sniped on.
[02:35:23] So this guy in the colonel goes flying over and he throws a CS grenade out so the CS grenade goes out and pins his guys down they're getting sniped at the rest of us and we're in our different shit Levi some of us were laying up along bank and the
[02:35:38] helicopter lands right outside of us right lands right outside of us so he comes walking along as we're laying up the bank and and he walks by had he's sitting there looking at us and hi says I guess you're the dumb motherfucker they do that CS grenade out.
[02:35:57] So he goes yes who in the who in the fucking you guys.
[02:36:09] They didn't they didn't matter back they got these guys out never wounded come on one guy got killed.
[02:36:27] He just looks at him goes back to a helicopter and he gets in he sticks CS grenade out the blue sense of got his stoner and goes like this and I go shit so I grab mine and the other five guys they grab theirs were up there and I'm thinking.
[02:36:43] He pulls the trigger that guy's going down he pulls it back in and leaves those are the guys as with and we all.
[02:36:52] They can easily get out of control yeah you know what everybody did maintain.
[02:36:58] Alright so so back to this PR you approve off that you're kind of like saying was a good one to highlight.
[02:37:05] Yeah.
[02:37:08] Pro the pro advisor team guy got this information right he says I just need you guys to come in and back me up because we had the stoners he had the mean some of those guys all they had with the carbines right and two carbines and maybe maybe one 16 and with those guys with the Vietnamese seals you might find an M 60 with the proves you wouldn't.
[02:37:33] When stuff went down he can't call any American Air Force Air Force or Air support or any of that stuff and they don't fly.
[02:37:42] Support for anybody they were doing everything like from the bush right kind of like guys who worked with the mountain yards right.
[02:37:48] So he says I got this intel says Richard snatch these guys as you set up security says will throw them in the boats you guys.
[02:37:57] Package them and we'll get away out of there will grab all of the because we could use our but we're using if we're going on the out he can use our boats right.
[02:38:06] The time the sandpans alongside of them they can go so.
[02:38:11] So here we are has been on the high in the back with the sandpan.
[02:38:16] You ever paddle a sandpan no I have not they're like P Rose the you did a P row the like the guys in the.
[02:38:23] The Cajuns down Louisiana I have a better one of those.
[02:38:29] They're a bitch man so we're we're paddling is it like a salt like a canoe.
[02:38:34] I've been in a canoe before like a canoe but the sandpans are like they got they're like flat bottom little thing and they go like this and they're they're pretty tilted right and you got a pal and I thought.
[02:38:45] He really I thought he really knew about can what we're both figure we're sailors right we're frog man we figure anything else we're paddling with and the rivers are very very wide.
[02:38:54] Hit this bank and kind of going like this we're following these guys up there so we're stroking trying to get up with them so then we go into an area and it was like.
[02:39:05] Here's where the Hootches were right the Hootches right here so the Hootches are along the bank of the river right along the bank of the river so we came in we set up support.
[02:39:14] So security for them he's got his proves his proves appear and then.
[02:39:20] He's.
[02:39:22] He says okay it's the same for corner security right anything that comes out the walls on the two corners you shoot him.
[02:39:30] So we're all right you know because that's how we did it you know because in a Hootch.
[02:39:35] If you don't have your your free fire you know the two corners is going to get hurt so when he comes out here you can you can shoot him these guys are going to shoot.
[02:39:43] You know the four corners.
[02:39:45] All right so we're sitting down here we paddle in.
[02:39:51] Supposed to be quiet.
[02:39:53] It turned out to be a John Wayne fight.
[02:39:55] Oh do my luck you know and guys.
[02:39:58] So John Wayne fight is where they know you're there.
[02:40:01] It means when they got inside the cats they were in there were fighting back.
[02:40:06] You know because there were Vietnamese they were the pro guys they weren't they weren't team guys you know they weren't.
[02:40:11] They weren't us so the proves go into the village go into the into the Hootch and they get into a gunfight.
[02:40:18] They get into a gun and fight fighting.
[02:40:22] Okay so that goes fine out the Hootch and the guys on the corner you'll kill him right.
[02:40:28] And so then there's a single on and then one guy comes out on our side running right in front of us black Mack.
[02:40:34] This is the very first time I ever saw this right.
[02:40:37] Had an M70 and grenade launcher right.
[02:40:41] And usually if you're going through the like the dance jungle you carry the flichette rounds or the you know like canister rounds right.
[02:40:48] Well this was kind of going to be in an open area so he did an HE round.
[02:40:52] And this guy goes running they popped one flare then in the firefight.
[02:41:00] There was the river goes right like this.
[02:41:02] There were some people down here in Viet Cong right.
[02:41:05] So we had the firefight they were getting hit over there.
[02:41:08] These guys are running out the back.
[02:41:10] Black Mack shoots this guy in the back with that grenade launcher.
[02:41:16] And all I saw was two hands and two feet flying through the air.
[02:41:21] And I remember going wow man wow.
[02:41:25] You know how everything kind of goes slow motion and there's noise but it seems like it's quiet.
[02:41:30] You know you know you I don't know the disconnect or whatever it's all just happening.
[02:41:38] But you know you're OK right.
[02:41:41] And everybody's calm about it.
[02:41:43] And the guy who was running the captured just two guys right.
[02:41:47] So when we had him packaged up these guys started opening up to where we were.
[02:41:55] So Viet Cong started engaging you guys.
[02:41:57] The Viet Cong that were a little bit off the target.
[02:42:00] Right. They're engaging us but we need to go out over here.
[02:42:03] So we grabbed the two bodies put it they threw them in because there was four guys.
[02:42:08] This is the op where one of my friends said oh yeah I says didn't we capture some generals.
[02:42:14] He wasn't even on the op.
[02:42:17] And it was in the memorial day.
[02:42:19] It was in the memorial day thing.
[02:42:21] He shows it to me and go on.
[02:42:23] So I go hi and I say was it generals who we captured.
[02:42:26] And the other wasn't it's just some VC I think it was two VCI guys and a tax collector.
[02:42:31] Because yeah that's what it was.
[02:42:33] It says well so why.
[02:42:35] I said because the guy who told me about the story says he said it was general.
[02:42:40] He wasn't even on the op.
[02:42:43] So because your stuff get and not and not that anybody's taking credit for it.
[02:42:48] There's there's another op that one guy did try to take credit from me.
[02:42:52] It's called the Donk story but.
[02:42:54] Okay and another so in the meantime how do you get.
[02:42:58] So you got to you got to leave the area of operations.
[02:43:01] Right you have to go by this group of Viet Cong right that are engaging you.
[02:43:05] Yeah and they're shooting over here right.
[02:43:07] So then we didn't know that there's other guys on this side so they start shooting back at these guys.
[02:43:13] So we had friendlies.
[02:43:16] Those are friendlies up there.
[02:43:17] No they're Viet Cong too.
[02:43:18] Oh so that so there's Viet Cong on both sides of you on both sides of us.
[02:43:22] Here's the place we're going out.
[02:43:24] We have these guys here and we're paddling out between them.
[02:43:27] So you're going to paddle out between Viet Cong on both sides.
[02:43:31] Right.
[02:43:32] This is not good.
[02:43:33] This is not good.
[02:43:34] The one thing that was good about it though it was a black night.
[02:43:37] It was a dark night so we weren't silhouetted on the river right.
[02:43:41] For the short time that the flare went up we saw what was going on.
[02:43:46] We know we were going out so we took off.
[02:43:49] But they had this thing going on and it was like I know there was one of those.
[02:43:57] What the hell are we doing here right.
[02:43:59] But by the time we got out on the river because there was a two Vietnamese
[02:44:03] and then black mac and two Vietnamese in that of the third San Pan.
[02:44:07] Me and Hyatt with our guys we passed everybody.
[02:44:10] We were waiting out on the river for these guys to show up.
[02:44:13] It was like where are we lost.
[02:44:20] And then the boat because the radio was with Mac.
[02:44:24] It was with black mac.
[02:44:25] So he had the black mac the platoon commander or the assistant assistant.
[02:44:31] And then he made you call him black mac because he was a black man.
[02:44:35] We have black mac and we had pink mac macintosh.
[02:44:39] You called pink.
[02:44:40] You called Macintosh pink mac.
[02:44:42] And we were talking and bimini too.
[02:44:44] So I was you know echo is asking about macintosh and he was like you know he goes wait a second.
[02:44:51] So was so was Macintosh a black guy.
[02:44:53] And I said I was like no no he's a white guy.
[02:44:56] He's white as me.
[02:44:58] And then he asked you the same thing and you're like no he legitimately had his mom was legitimately black.
[02:45:05] Right.
[02:45:06] Well for me this was news and I knew like for a long time.
[02:45:10] He had freckles.
[02:45:12] His last name is Macintosh.
[02:45:13] He looks like a complete white dude.
[02:45:15] I mean it makes the story even fun.
[02:45:18] You have to concentrate on his face.
[02:45:20] You see the black features if you really start looking close.
[02:45:23] I mean I knew him for a long time and hung out with him.
[02:45:27] If you would ask me I never would have said that guy's black other than the fact that you know everyone knew he was like from the Virgin Islands.
[02:45:35] Right.
[02:45:36] And that was that's what I just figured he was some white guy you know that grew up there.
[02:45:41] If you think about it that's the way seals are.
[02:45:44] We think we know who they are but they're not.
[02:45:46] Yeah.
[02:45:47] Yeah.
[02:45:48] Yeah we don't know.
[02:45:51] But anyway we got we got those two guys out and it was a cool op and then the guy that was running the op he was just so happy because he'd been trying to get those guys for a long time.
[02:46:02] So stuff changed.
[02:46:03] It was always a dynamic.
[02:46:04] The Intel was always dynamic.
[02:46:06] So something that was good today was different.
[02:46:09] I think it's kind of like some or kind of like the way the Afghans is what I'm understanding is they're moving all the time.
[02:46:15] Yeah well you always have to adjust for that and it's interesting you know the fact that you know we're working with Iraqi soldiers or the I didn't fight in Afghanistan but guys that did work in Afghanistan had to deal with the same stuff.
[02:46:28] You know you got these partner forces that you're working with some of them are most of them are good but you got four or five of those guys that are definitely suspect and you got two or three of them that are bad.
[02:46:41] And you know one of my friends got shot up pretty bad by a guy that they thought was you know was there to go do a mission with him.
[02:46:52] He's a special forces guy.
[02:46:55] What about the what about the Donk op what happened with that one.
[02:46:58] Oh that was that was going on the football island man and me tick the Vietnamese the kid that was sitting beside me.
[02:47:06] I loved him man.
[02:47:08] He was a guy who told me he said SP I'm off from my country what your country has for you.
[02:47:15] Says you know says you seals you come and then you'll go.
[02:47:25] This is where I'm going to die.
[02:47:26] I'm a hell no tick.
[02:47:27] So we're going to be together.
[02:47:28] I'm going to get out.
[02:47:29] I'll become an officer and I'll come back and I was even going to join the Vietnamese Navy SEAL team right.
[02:47:35] That's that's where I was going with it but I needed a break too.
[02:47:39] I wanted to get out of you know there's there's a thing where you realize that if you don't have you're not all in you're going to you're going to get killed.
[02:47:47] And that's my respect for the cats like you and guys that have been in for 34 years that like Hayden like Hayden Chau Dica's guys like Frisk and crawdad and you know those guys.
[02:48:03] Sometimes there's the little break of war between after Vietnam that space and it but then there's more of it.
[02:48:11] But for me it was like I need to get I need to get out and I had the offer to wrestle at the University of Colorado so so there was with tick and so he says football Island was there was a bunch of cats there and we wanted to pull an up on it.
[02:48:27] So what we did is we did three people three SEALs and tick got a little sandpan went up to football Island is not any wider than this the room.
[02:48:41] So like 10 feet across 10 feet.
[02:48:43] This is how big the river was or how big football Island was.
[02:48:46] No that's how big the river was.
[02:48:47] Football Island is probably about three clicks wide probably about two clicks three to two clicks you know wide and long.
[02:48:57] But we didn't have a lot of intel on it and then during the day there was a lot of you know they would they would move around right.
[02:49:03] So what we wanted to do is find out how many were there.
[02:49:06] So we went in at night went in with the tide.
[02:49:09] With the tide sandpan just the four of us went in called up the still river then then it narrowed probably to about that wide.
[02:49:18] So like six feet six feet right.
[02:49:21] But wait out was the big river and that's what we came in on we came in with an LSSC right with the sandpan attached to it.
[02:49:29] So they launches they cruise on up the river and then we turned in and went did our ebop.
[02:49:36] So we're in there and we're sneaking peak.
[02:49:39] We got up there probably when we first reached the mouth of the river we heard.
[02:49:48] So it was like oh oh that's that's that's them signaling that's a them signaling right.
[02:49:54] But it was right near the bank where we were going up.
[02:49:57] So sons of bitches are I mean they're right there right.
[02:50:00] So we stayed low low low paddle paddle and I just kept going went by him probably about.
[02:50:05] Two minutes three minutes up you know not that far up maybe.
[02:50:10] Maybe about five minutes.
[02:50:12] So then we got to where it was easy to pull in there was like a like a shallow bank that we can get in.
[02:50:17] So we harbored up the boat and we crawled up.
[02:50:22] Picking up like picking up and looking and Jesus.
[02:50:25] And those cats were smoking cigarettes they had their weapons kind of stacked and talking.
[02:50:31] And then there was this thing that went like this how many probably about 50.
[02:50:37] That's a big group of cats.
[02:50:38] That's a big group of cats.
[02:50:40] You know there were.
[02:50:41] Did you have a stoner anyone have a 60.
[02:50:44] Well no no no we're going to see that four stoners three stoners and tick with 16.
[02:50:50] So we could we could have five.
[02:50:53] Yeah but we don't we're not there for that.
[02:50:56] So we'd hear this you know just but it was like a like a dog made like a real hollow sound.
[02:51:03] It was a little piece of wood little piece of wood like this had two serpents heads had a hole drilled through it and then there was a line that was cut out that would make that hollow sound.
[02:51:15] Okay this is almost like a percussion instrument.
[02:51:17] Yeah but it had a place where your thumb would fit and when your finger would fit.
[02:51:21] I didn't know it at the time we just heard it.
[02:51:24] So then we get up there and we're laying out on the river we hear this.
[02:51:30] Oh well the boat was in we were up to just we were we were just kind of hanging out for probably about 40 minutes maybe maybe now we caught it just when the tide was full and then it started running out right.
[02:51:51] Well the cats out on the river hooked up on a barge I mean on a sandbar.
[02:51:56] So the Vietnamese guys are there and they're going and then one guy was hitting his little dunk.
[02:52:02] He said oh sounds like the Americans are stuck.
[02:52:06] Yeah and then one guy says should we go we should get the guys and we'll go kill him.
[02:52:13] We're just hanging out here you know and let's just take a break.
[02:52:17] Let's let him live tonight and so Tick was like we're going to have to get out of here right.
[02:52:24] So this one guy gets up and says I'm going to take a leak.
[02:52:29] So he goes over with the little thing and I'm laying here and Hite's laying there and he takes this thing and he puts it down.
[02:52:34] This is the percussion instrument thing.
[02:52:36] Yeah he puts it down and so then Hite was a platoon leader right.
[02:52:40] He's one he's calling the op.
[02:52:42] I'm here Tick's here and Rich is over here.
[02:52:45] So Hite said well let's go.
[02:52:48] So I'm sitting and I look and he laid it when he laid it down.
[02:52:52] He was like right in front of me and then he started pissing between me and Hite.
[02:52:56] So I'm like this guy like this like you know you can feel the like rain fitting on the top of your head.
[02:53:01] I'm sitting there going son of a bitch.
[02:53:04] And so the other guy said hey.
[02:53:05] Chá Tây said who took your cigarette.
[02:53:08] Oh yeah.
[02:53:09] So he turns around goes back over and gives this guy a cigarette.
[02:53:12] Hi Hite let's move man I grabbed that thing put it in my pocket.
[02:53:16] We slid out and then we're on the low look where the the current is starting to move out.
[02:53:23] So it was pretty cool.
[02:53:24] So we weren't like we were going out with it.
[02:53:27] Those boats are on so we get out there and then we pass by the guy the shot.
[02:53:32] You know I was like and I didn't I didn't really understand it but then Lou he says I can feel the fucking bullets going in.
[02:53:41] In my back man he said I could just feel them all the way.
[02:53:44] We just get that it's not reality right.
[02:53:48] There are things that I'll get into that little bit later but so we went out and it was so dark that when those guys were still sitting there we pulled the boat up there and was hey.
[02:54:03] So let us push you off we pushed them off the bars and then we took off but I had that dog I put it in my pocket.
[02:54:08] So I told the story to a buddy of mine Andy Willingham team guy and he says cool man and I showed him the little thing you know because I brought it back and then he was in class 41 tough guy man.
[02:54:24] Just actually he had a tussle with the guy I'm not going to say the guy's name but he's East Coast guy the real high end that ran a lot officer that is high profile and shit.
[02:54:35] We're in the trade wind bar and he's starting this East Coast West Coast bullshit and Andy Willingham tells him you know you don't shut the fuck up I want to knock you out.
[02:54:44] Andy's dad used to bit money with all these guys down in South and he was a relative of Strom Thurman and he used to knock donkeys out with that 16 punch.
[02:54:57] Well the guy goes what out drinks his beer says I'll catch you later as we take off.
[02:55:05] That guy's a very famous East Coast seal you know big name high name that's never going to be in the history books but that's how things happen then you know it wasn't.
[02:55:14] You know the guys that are high order top end dudes with the big reputations and stuff like that.
[02:55:22] They're just regular guys you're just a regular cat.
[02:55:27] We're all like that and I think the sense of where the media gets hold of this thing and sensationalize everything about you know where.
[02:55:37] That we are anti magnetic genuine role I mean all of that stuff right.
[02:55:42] But when you when you're going to screw with the frog man and you're out somewhere.
[02:55:47] You're not going to just have to kick the hell out of one guy.
[02:55:49] You're going to be 10 guys with him.
[02:55:52] You don't have to prove that you know I mean this is this is where the power is that everybody knows that right.
[02:55:59] And when it goes down where's the calmness you know and you know.
[02:56:06] The one thing is that in the millisecond of time.
[02:56:12] You're both a coward and a hero.
[02:56:15] And you want yourself find yourself somewhere you want to hold I get here when you can run as fast backwards as you can run forward.
[02:56:22] And each one of the instances look alike they smell alike but they're not alike.
[02:56:26] You know it's a totally different thing and each one has its own evolution the same as a fire has its own character has its own.
[02:56:34] And what what I used to say in Vietnam is not the thing you see that's going to kill you.
[02:56:39] And I tell my guys in the fire department it's not the thing you see that's going to kill you.
[02:56:43] What is it's the thing that's sniffing around with Jocko's name on it.
[02:56:48] It's going where is he and that's where the training comes in.
[02:56:53] And if you have the training then you have the millisecond of saying and there's that spiritual thing this is we're in the wrong place or don't.
[02:57:02] And when I look at ops that you know like that like our new guys now you guys right the young guys that get killed in Afghanistan.
[02:57:07] We're acts like where was the discussion. That was pretty jacked up from the beginning.
[02:57:14] But because we are who we are we give the space and time to say I wasn't there. They were there.
[02:57:21] That's their that's their op and and however it went however it went sour whatever happened.
[02:57:29] It's the thing that was sniffing for them and they didn't see it.
[02:57:33] You know no matter how well trained you are sometimes it's just not there.
[02:57:38] What did you do with with Mac with with Sog did you work. Did you do sog any sog operations.
[02:57:46] The Mac vs. sog thing was the proofing.
[02:57:49] OK so that they had that was there that was there.
[02:57:52] Yeah that's their that's their thing. Yeah.
[02:57:54] Got it. So those are the ones you know what it was.
[02:57:56] They just hit me and Bill over there.
[02:57:58] You go under these guys are leaving take over. We're like all right. You know.
[02:58:03] And the only reason they sent us for that is because I was with the Vietnamese seals with two East Coast guys.
[02:58:09] And I worked that so then it was kind of like hey we want you to because I could speak.
[02:58:13] I spoke better Vietnamese and I did Spanish. You know.
[02:58:17] So you just pick it up from pick it up from the point men from from tick and quan and unlock and all the guys.
[02:58:25] All the guys that I operated with were Vietnamese seals that all the rest of the Americans operated with.
[02:58:30] So when Tick said yeah I'm going to be here but you guys are going to leave us and I'll probably die here.
[02:58:36] All of them were killed. Lock home tick all these guys.
[02:58:45] So that's how I picked it up.
[02:58:48] There are guys that went to Vietnamese language school.
[02:58:50] They didn't send me I spoke better Vietnamese than I did.
[02:58:53] Then the guys who went to Vietnamese language school because a personalized Macintosh could speak to Gallow.
[02:59:00] Because he in Vietnam he had the little thing on learning all the all the to Gallow phrases right.
[02:59:07] And so I was invested with tick and I was invested with the liberation of South Vietnam.
[02:59:19] I think there were a lot of I think there were a lot of Vietnamese a lot of seal team guys Vietnam seals that that's how they felt.
[02:59:26] And then after it went down I mean I talked to some guys I said well yeah I'd like to go back someday.
[02:59:31] And I had some partners this and so I didn't leave a damn thing over there.
[02:59:35] There's no reason for me to ever go back there.
[02:59:38] And I think what happens is there's a romance.
[02:59:46] There's a who are you romanticize the memories right.
[02:59:53] People romanticize wars.
[02:59:55] They were romanticized of what it is or they think about what it is.
[03:00:00] I think those of us to be there see the nakedness of it you know see the deal right the flash of that changes your life.
[03:00:08] That changes everybody's life.
[03:00:10] And we think sometimes that you can only see that in war we got people in communities that that are going through the same thing of trying going through post-traumatic stress in their own neighborhoods you know.
[03:00:23] And but what I went through is giving me language to what happened in my life that I'm now able through reevaluation counseling is one where I have the picture of who I am as a human being.
[03:00:35] And I think advanced reticular therapies the vision thing that some guys are doing that they gave me a mental pictures of where I'm going.
[03:00:45] And then this ladies really helped me with her thing is called rewired creator but where I've come to the point where I'm not going to settle for that.
[03:00:56] And like I said earlier you know my convictions and my wants need to be stronger than the alternatives that I settled for in the past that it's okay to do this.
[03:01:05] You know I can't do that anymore.
[03:01:07] And I got to forgive myself for the sins of my past right.
[03:01:11] That's a big end when I was in Coronado this last time through reunion.
[03:01:17] I go there I go to Denny's bar and I have a beer with Mario Maestes.
[03:01:21] I mentored him I was his wrestling coach in Colorado right.
[03:01:25] I do and I'd wrestle him and then be like okay you know when you're wrestling the guy and you know he's getting stronger and tougher and then you go.
[03:01:33] Oh shit I hang out here a little bit more he's gonna beat the hell out of me.
[03:01:36] That was that was him you know and I.
[03:01:45] That that family and that relationship and what we create for each other.
[03:01:53] It's beyond just the happening it's all it's beyond just being a frogman it's there's the whole spiritual connection to those old UDT guys that they know shit they went and they picked up can you swim yeah.
[03:02:04] I remember asking one of my old guys World War two guys this is what did you kind of weapons you carry.
[03:02:10] Well I started my cribbers my swimming trunks and my flair.
[03:02:16] I said what about weapons so we're just doing drop and pick up says if you miss the boat says you're swimming in with the fleet.
[03:02:24] You know with with the guys that are laying on the beaches and there's usually a marine laying around you can just take his weapon he didn't care.
[03:02:30] That was their character that was that's who we're born from right that's what the tadpole the frog you know that.
[03:02:42] And she's stone man we live in a reputation of dead man like the people they're gonna sit there and say oh that's your reputation right.
[03:02:49] But each one of our generations those guys behind is are building their own generation.
[03:02:56] They're building their building where's it gonna go.
[03:03:00] If it's left to the people that operate that tobacco Lewis when I came back I was by myself he's sitting there in the trade wind bar.
[03:03:12] I look at him I come in and go shit they still sitting there.
[03:03:16] Yes he has.
[03:03:19] So I come over to him say hey man how you doing.
[03:03:23] He grabs a pitcher beer.
[03:03:30] There's I understand we're a pretty good badass little operator.
[03:03:40] Take my drink right.
[03:03:42] See where is the transition to being called that not calling you and you couldn't I didn't like now it's called seal operators nobody would ever have called themselves an operator.
[03:03:52] The person that could call you an operator is yourself is your teammates the guys that were with you.
[03:03:58] And when they say that and somebody else says it to you it never came from you it came from the cats that were with you and there's some cats.
[03:04:07] They were never called operators they're Vietnam their seals Vietnam guys are team guys but.
[03:04:13] Not at that level but whatever level that is and it isn't mean to.
[03:04:22] To put one type of operator over another operator you know it's just that you are not not better than all the rest of the operators in the world.
[03:04:29] Because then then become then it becomes the ego thing.
[03:04:33] But from here.
[03:04:35] If somebody calls you that and you almost cry.
[03:04:38] It means something you know and I went you know have my drink with him and.
[03:04:48] You know and I had you know you have these these guys that they say that are bigger than life and actually are not bigger than life they're people that know how to connect with you.
[03:04:58] That are.
[03:05:02] They give you life more than anything you go yeah I can do that I can be this Oliver chief Allen Barry Enoch you know.
[03:05:12] No I was fortunate man I I walked with some.
[03:05:17] I walked with some good people you know.
[03:05:20] Did you guys did your platoon did you lose anybody and your deployment doc doc Maynard.
[03:05:26] Transfer he rotated with the army corps was a Marine Corpsman.
[03:05:32] So that the Marine Corpsman could get some money right do the ship over stuff.
[03:05:37] And he was the one that was walking by with Van Hoy Doc Maynard and Van Hoy were walking by when they drilled out that 82 millimeter mortar and killed five seals.
[03:05:48] And he just happened to be there.
[03:05:51] It's walking by and then they had to put I wasn't there because I was working with the Pruse.
[03:05:56] But another buddy my name D.
[03:05:59] They were having a party you know they they're changing out.
[03:06:02] I was the other thing that was crazy.
[03:06:05] But anyway at that party because we were coming over and they just had a party and they were still doing a little bit more operations.
[03:06:13] And Van Hoy told these is I'm gonna get killed here this time.
[03:06:18] What the hell is that what are you talking about. These guys are careless.
[03:06:22] They're dangerous.
[03:06:24] Says enough talk to him about stuff.
[03:06:26] He says but we're going to mess up.
[03:06:29] And they did.
[03:06:31] And he had already like three or four trips.
[03:06:34] You know.
[03:06:35] And and he was one he was one of he was a cool Van Hoy was he was a rock star.
[03:06:42] And you get me was the very first time we go to Vietnam going to release relieve of Patoon and they grab you like this.
[03:06:52] Hey are you doing your espionage.
[03:06:56] Look what.
[03:06:58] I think I'm shaking hands with the dead man.
[03:07:02] That's why you think that's funny.
[03:07:05] You know they would do those kind of things you know.
[03:07:08] And so then I did it when I left.
[03:07:15] So how was it coming home.
[03:07:20] Did you think you were going back to another platoon like you're going to do it again.
[03:07:25] What point did you make the decision like that you're going to get out.
[03:07:28] I got the letter to Russell to University of Colorado which was always one of my dreams because I was raised in Boulder.
[03:07:35] And I thought man I'd live to Russell to University of Colorado babes and booze in Boulder my hometown or bombs bullets and bullshit.
[03:07:43] I guess I guess I had on the lips and I said hey man I'm going to get you later because I got I wasn't ready.
[03:07:49] I wasn't right.
[03:07:50] You know I felt that I felt that thing that if I go back again I might get whacked and I needed to I needed that time away.
[03:07:59] You know.
[03:08:00] And if I had that space and I had that time and I wasn't ready then I'm cheating.
[03:08:04] I may be the wink link in you let down the team in another's operation.
[03:08:10] So I'd rather not be there right.
[03:08:12] And so yeah and saying goodbye to those guys was really hard you know.
[03:08:24] And then all the other stuff you know there's the people talk about some of the movements that are coming now about gender and all that other kind of stuff.
[03:08:31] You know we dealt with that in the teams a long time before that you know we're gay guys or whatever it is you know the like in community you know we allow for everybody to exist.
[03:08:44] Not in the teams I mean in the teams it was all but we were in California.
[03:08:48] So I mean all the stuff they're talking about now is already all the gay thing the whole all of that stuff is so when I went to school to see you there was a lot of people trying to surprise you about things.
[03:08:58] The Viva La Rasa thing about how violent they are.
[03:09:01] I'm back from Vietnam is like you know wait a minute you know I did I.
[03:09:11] Vietnam veterans against war the young social street public the Viva the Azzalan thing is like and I was raised in Boulder right.
[03:09:20] All this stuff's going down I'm like what happened in my life when I was a kid felt like my days were black and white days.
[03:09:27] Vietnam is a green and black when I came home is all technicolor man all chicks getting come and ask if you want sex.
[03:09:36] You know like what happened you know this free love and all that other like where's where's the moral conviction where's those things it was like there weren't there weren't any there's what year was it that you got out 69 and 70 I got back in Vietnam.
[03:09:50] So it's just like the height of mayhem in America. Yeah yeah that whole thing was going down and.
[03:09:58] I remember.
[03:10:01] At a party this guy was talking about.
[03:10:05] The the Chicano movement right.
[03:10:08] As there was another kid there he was from Del Norte and I'm listening to him this guy for corn was.
[03:10:18] Really an activist I said well I don't agree with I think it's kind of bullshit you know because I just killed a commie from mommy I'm back here.
[03:10:27] I'm from Boulder and and I said well you're a sellout.
[03:10:31] I'm a sellout because I love my country because of what I did and this kid Marty Martinez he says yeah he can say whatever he wants any backhands him.
[03:10:42] So that's kind of a cheap thing in it so you don't like it let's go outdoors.
[03:10:48] Sorry so we go outdoors.
[03:10:50] And I forgot where I was right.
[03:10:55] So I walked out and soon as the other time that the outside warrior kind of got the upper hand a little bit.
[03:11:01] Well what happened what happened was he hit me right so I turned and I looked at him.
[03:11:07] And I said you I've been slapped by women harder than you can you just hit me.
[03:11:13] I says just stand by because I'm going to kick out of these three guys first your little girlfriends and then you.
[03:11:20] Oh no no man says you got to then it was reminding me back when I was in junior high fight this guy and then they go oh no you're OK you're cool.
[03:11:28] I said bullshit.
[03:11:30] I says you are manipulating these young kids into what you think it is but they're not but they're being manipulated and it's not creative thought.
[03:11:39] I said so I want to what no no you're close no no I'm gonna go back in the party me and Freddie I says you come back in there I'm going to kick you inside there out.
[03:11:50] I says a matter of fact when I go to a party if you're there you better leave and if I'm there don't come in.
[03:11:56] Later on he got killed by threatening some old guy in New Mexico right so I didn't fit.
[03:12:04] Ask my dad.
[03:12:06] Hey man I said I did I screw up.
[03:12:09] Vietnam and all that.
[03:12:12] My dad I love him man.
[03:12:15] He's the guy to grab my face you know tell me I was don't be afraid right.
[03:12:20] And my last name is the only thing I gave you.
[03:12:23] So he takes me over and makes me stand in the school we put tiles in the bathroom not the stick I'm kind of not not this court you mean.
[03:12:31] So we did that and he had me stand there and.
[03:12:35] This is after Vietnam after you asked him if you if you had screwed up this is when I was going to school at CU right because I came home and they were still there.
[03:12:43] Before my dad told me we're moving I said why are you moving.
[03:12:47] We're afraid of you.
[03:12:49] We think you're going to kill us.
[03:12:51] I see why what do you mean.
[03:12:54] He says the way you are the behavior the way you look at us the way you carry yourself sometimes says we think you could kill us.
[03:13:01] That's when I understood where the that's where the outside worse are looking to go what though.
[03:13:06] And there's another couple other things I'll get to a little bit later about what happened but he had me stand there.
[03:13:14] He says you know the way we are as people he says the man can say that they own the rivers the mountains the valleys even the buildings that they built says the air or to see.
[03:13:30] He says but they don't.
[03:13:33] But I want to tell you something.
[03:13:36] That's quartile that you're standing on.
[03:13:39] Everywhere you walk give me that's when he'd love me when he called me give you give is different than SP you know and go.
[03:13:46] He says everywhere you walk.
[03:13:50] It's paid for by you by the blood of yours and your friends.
[03:13:56] He says and you did it for your family.
[03:13:59] You did it from your heart.
[03:14:00] So it's paid for us too.
[03:14:04] He says you never be ashamed about what you did and who you are because that you own it.
[03:14:12] So when I walk into a village this place right here right now.
[03:14:15] This is mine.
[03:14:16] This is your this is yours.
[03:14:19] But this little chair here.
[03:14:22] It's mine.
[03:14:23] And I didn't understand that but somebody has to tell you so that you do invite to add fourth grade education told me in the Indian way you know.
[03:14:33] And he gave me so much power.
[03:14:38] When I came back I didn't fit.
[03:14:43] So when I wrestled they see you.
[03:14:46] It was just wrestling.
[03:14:48] I'm saying I couldn't get it.
[03:14:49] I had to go to I had to go to five.
[03:14:51] I went to the nationals two times.
[03:14:53] If I beat this one guy I would have been sixth in the nation.
[03:14:55] Right.
[03:14:56] But he ran.
[03:14:57] I beat a national champ that another guy knows but they they ripped me off.
[03:15:02] And actually when my wrestling coach talked to this guy I said why'd that happen.
[03:15:07] He said I just couldn't let that Mexican kid beat this kid.
[03:15:10] Right.
[03:15:11] All right.
[03:15:12] I understood that.
[03:15:13] No big I'm a frog man you know I fought for my country.
[03:15:17] You know I.
[03:15:25] I just fortunate I had a pop that told me that you know when I went hunting with him one time later as a man.
[03:15:31] We killed an elk.
[03:15:36] I was just back.
[03:15:37] I was probably not as later.
[03:15:39] And we were getting him up he says give me he says you hunt in this is you go up over the ridges and you scared out an elk and and I'll kill him.
[03:15:51] It's all right.
[03:15:52] So I'm up there walking up on this.
[03:15:54] He wouldn't mind my mom was going to let him go.
[03:15:57] But she said he said what if Gibby goes with me.
[03:16:02] Well if Gibby goes with you can go.
[03:16:05] I said dad I don't want to go.
[03:16:06] He says you you go with me and said all right.
[03:16:10] So he tells me this order you go up on top he says you chase down the elk and I'll kill him and we'll be you know.
[03:16:16] It's all right.
[03:16:17] So I'm up there humping.
[03:16:19] I'm like 47 years old.
[03:16:20] I could feel my heart you know like when you're on ambush or something like that and you feel your heart beating in your head.
[03:16:24] You're neck you know I think I'm going to have a heart attack up here.
[03:16:28] Mine dad is not coming up here and they're going to find me a bag of bones right.
[03:16:32] So anyway I came down and he was driving.
[03:16:36] Yeah.
[03:16:37] So I got in here I put my weapon here.
[03:16:39] You're supposed to have your weapon but where you're hunting right with you.
[03:16:42] So we drive.
[03:16:44] So I went around the truck.
[03:16:46] As soon as I got hold the door I heard the sound man.
[03:16:49] Somebody shooting at us went right over my head.
[03:16:52] Two of them.
[03:16:54] And I said what's going on.
[03:16:56] I said oh Papa whatever's happening they're shooting at us.
[03:17:00] And then I grabbed his weapon so I'm going to shoot somebody.
[03:17:04] He goes no no no he says there's the elk it's coming this way.
[03:17:08] So instinctively I drew up I was going to shoot the elk in my day.
[03:17:12] No no no he said that's my gun.
[03:17:14] And when we went my dad I said dad I don't want a gun.
[03:17:17] He says no I'm just going to be with you.
[03:17:19] I'm going to have in case you get hurt some you got a gun.
[03:17:22] So alright so he locked and loaded the round for me.
[03:17:25] I shoot.
[03:17:26] Clipped him like this.
[03:17:28] I took the second shot.
[03:17:30] And then I was locked and loaded and I'm running.
[03:17:32] Next day I'm just running after this elk.
[03:17:35] And I heard my dad as I was running he says I'm going to shoot him again.
[03:17:39] My dad no no no give me he'll fall he'll fall.
[03:17:42] And when I got there the elk fell.
[03:17:45] And I looked at him and the elk goes.
[03:17:48] And I felt the spirit you know it was like.
[03:17:55] And I saw him die you know.
[03:17:58] And I hadn't done anything since Vietnam right.
[03:18:02] And you know like sometimes when you see those guys and they're gone.
[03:18:06] When you know the spirit was there but they're gone.
[03:18:09] It was like that again.
[03:18:12] Those aren't flashbacks.
[03:18:13] People go oh they got a flashback to Vietnam.
[03:18:15] Those are your stimulations.
[03:18:17] You know where you know where you're at.
[03:18:19] You have a choice to do whatever.
[03:18:20] A lot of guys bullshit themselves out.
[03:18:22] They quit on themselves.
[03:18:24] They give themselves an out of being responsible for themselves.
[03:18:26] That's how I think right.
[03:18:28] And so I looked and I'm standing there and my dad comes up behind me.
[03:18:35] And I had my H harness with my K bar and stuff.
[03:18:39] He says you okay and I turned around and looked at my dad he goes.
[03:18:43] He says you're not okay.
[03:18:45] He gives me your knife.
[03:18:47] He says go get the truck.
[03:18:48] The little bag that had the hatchet and the knife and the bone saw and all the stuff.
[03:18:53] He's like so I go to the truck.
[03:18:56] I get to the truck and I'm like shinking like this.
[03:19:00] He goes oh man god you know wait what am I doing here.
[03:19:05] Why did I even.
[03:19:07] So we grab my get the truck.
[03:19:11] I come back over to him.
[03:19:12] He looks at me.
[03:19:15] He gives me a hug.
[03:19:17] He got me like this.
[03:19:18] With the knife with the blood.
[03:19:20] I'm like this going shit.
[03:19:23] So he says looks at me.
[03:19:25] He says forget that Vietnam bullshit.
[03:19:29] So I need you to help me right now.
[03:19:31] Hold the legs.
[03:19:33] So I'm holding the legs right where there's place with all the the bizarre in the like a pasture right where they'd cut the.
[03:19:41] The stuff down right the.
[03:19:45] Stubble right.
[03:19:48] Operated up to play the reeds of my Cambodia right and that was a pretty flat place but that's what it looked like and.
[03:19:57] I could hear isn't like whoa but I could hear them in.
[03:20:05] In the heart of my mind right.
[03:20:08] Thinking and shaking.
[03:20:12] And so then we got him up and everything he caught shoots a gun his buddy comes down we load him in the truck we take out getting in the truck.
[03:20:20] And my dad says OK says now we pray.
[03:20:24] Right.
[03:20:26] He keeps the liver to you know and Indian way right so we pray and he grabs my hand.
[03:20:33] Says heavenly father said thank you.
[03:20:38] I thank you that my son is with me.
[03:20:41] And I thank you.
[03:20:43] That you gave this folks life to bring him home to me.
[03:20:48] You know.
[03:20:50] Pops man come on you know so then that night.
[03:20:55] I couldn't sleep he was in like a little tear tear drop trailer man it was freezing in there right.
[03:21:01] I said I'm going to get outside so I went outside and I looked up at the sky.
[03:21:07] And up in the sky there's two times I've seen it one when I did a Native American sweat with a guy that was a Vietnam vet that invited me to be part of the American Indian veterans of Colorado.
[03:21:17] His name was Wendell Irving one of the greatest honors of my life.
[03:21:20] That was the beginning of me stepping out of all that.
[03:21:24] The oppression of Vietnam and.
[03:21:28] Losing myself.
[03:21:31] Losing the humanist that I was in and.
[03:21:34] That piece that the young boy being revealed right.
[03:21:38] I looked up and I went oh man God this.
[03:21:42] Is this too much these honey drips are too much.
[03:21:45] And then it again in the spirit the same way those mountains spoke to me and said we'll be your friends forever.
[03:21:50] Right.
[03:21:51] And the way the poem almost says I'm with you and that's the way to Vietnam.
[03:21:57] I heard him say I heard the spirit is like the same way that I gave that elk's life to bring you home to your father.
[03:22:05] I gave my son's life to bring you back home to me.
[03:22:09] It was the beginning of.
[03:22:11] Of the spiritual thing you know.
[03:22:13] And I I you know I'd accepted Christ and all that kind of stuff but.
[03:22:19] It was different because then it was blood again.
[03:22:23] Like the word like a Vietnam blood again.
[03:22:26] This is the blood sacrifice of things changes things.
[03:22:30] If people knew what war was and what the blood was like the people in Ukraine right now they know.
[03:22:37] The Americans don't know.
[03:22:39] I mean they'll kill guys in the in you know the the ghettos or whatever over meaningless stuff.
[03:22:45] Right.
[03:22:46] Because you want you want your car or you.
[03:22:50] Or you want his whale tail right.
[03:22:53] Right now I'm in I am Jonah in the whale right now.
[03:22:57] Because I'm trying to sort things out and where am I going with this.
[03:23:01] 75 years where am I going for the next 25 years right.
[03:23:05] Where am I going this is part of that challenge this is part of it and where does that come from that comes from being a frog man.
[03:23:11] That comes from not being afraid of being cold.
[03:23:14] I hate it.
[03:23:16] I hate it more than anything but I'm not afraid of it.
[03:23:21] Right.
[03:23:25] I'm not you know it's people so I'm not afraid to die either you know you're not going to know until somebody is there to kill you.
[03:23:33] I mean that's the reality of it.
[03:23:37] I'm I look out there and see all the MMA guys man.
[03:23:41] They're going to go out there.
[03:23:43] The one thing that I admire about all of them is going out there.
[03:23:47] They're the ones going to know not the cats sitting around outside that aren't in the arena.
[03:23:52] They're the only in there getting their ass kicked and then even even though they are which is the one that has enough that's going to pull them out.
[03:23:59] That isn't going to be ego that pulls them out.
[03:24:02] It's going to be their heart to pull some out.
[03:24:04] Those are the two champions.
[03:24:06] There's a guy with all the talent in the world.
[03:24:08] He can kick shit out everybody but but if his heart's not right man it's on ego.
[03:24:13] He's an angry person.
[03:24:15] And I was that angry guy one time.
[03:24:18] I said they're looking in the mirror and going you know the face of death was mine.
[03:24:23] Like what and then I'm going to have kids.
[03:24:26] I can see I can see some of the guy was with the three in the young seal man.
[03:24:30] What do I do? How can I do this and still love my babies little kids.
[03:24:34] I said Barry Enoch did.
[03:24:37] He was sitting there and hold my babies and Barry Enoch is one of the baddest dudes in the valley and one of the nicest guy.
[03:24:42] You ever meet him? Barry Enoch?
[03:24:45] He's a true mentor of teams.
[03:24:48] He was with crawdad you know and it's bigger.
[03:24:56] So my pops gave that to me.
[03:25:02] Fourth grade.
[03:25:04] Then he when I was wrestling in high school.
[03:25:10] He never my sophomore he didn't go see me.
[03:25:13] And then one day I was dry.
[03:25:16] Told him I need to go to a wrestling camp.
[03:25:18] I got lift weights and this and that.
[03:25:19] He's some protein.
[03:25:20] My coach wanted me to do that stuff.
[03:25:22] My dad said well I don't know about that.
[03:25:24] He says I got you a job.
[03:25:26] He says and if you make enough money he says you can go to your wrestling camp.
[03:25:31] He says you know shut up and eat your beans right protein.
[03:25:36] I went I said what's my job?
[03:25:38] He says hang in drywall.
[03:25:40] So I was 98 pounds man hanging drywall with grown men.
[03:25:43] I had to get on a scaffold.
[03:25:46] I mean on a horse to get on a horse to hold that up.
[03:25:49] But there was nobody I ever wrestled that was stronger than me.
[03:25:52] And so all of that prepared me for the teams when I should hang it on the bottom ring of a helicopter in the air.
[03:26:00] And on 500 feet going through training right through budge training we did the drop out of the helicopter and pick up.
[03:26:07] Hanging on and no big no big deal you know.
[03:26:12] That how do you get there right.
[03:26:17] It's each of those little life life things and are knowing that Chief Allen's on my ass you know.
[03:26:26] I was doing drop pick up with him right.
[03:26:28] They were telling you about what that is and I'm sitting there going you ever do drop and pick up.
[03:26:31] They don't do it anymore but I do.
[03:26:33] Yeah well there was one East Coast guy just told me how do you do that stuff just sitting there just jerking you out.
[03:26:37] I said well you got to be swimming backwards.
[03:26:39] He said oh really.
[03:26:40] And they were teaching him to do that you know just kick and go.
[03:26:43] So he says yeah he says it's going to look like the boats going to hit you but don't stay there and he'll pull you in.
[03:26:48] So I'm like this.
[03:26:50] Oh bullshit you know.
[03:26:52] I stroked out and the boat goes by.
[03:26:55] Chief Allen comes back and he's like Brown.
[03:26:57] He says Espinoza don't move.
[03:26:59] Who you Chief Allen.
[03:27:00] He takes off.
[03:27:01] Comes back.
[03:27:03] I swear he's going to hit me again.
[03:27:05] So then the third time he didn't see and he just turns around and comes over and he's coming at me.
[03:27:11] It is really coming.
[03:27:13] I'm kick stroking and glad he ran over me with that boat.
[03:27:16] Boom man.
[03:27:17] My face piece was hanging down and stuff.
[03:27:19] And then he pulls by it.
[03:27:22] Last time.
[03:27:24] He grabbed me when that boat grabbed me and I hooked hooked up.
[03:27:27] He threw me all the guys ducked.
[03:27:30] And I was like as I fly from the boats about this big.
[03:27:34] Everybody's duck and I'm flying through the air and I caught the other side.
[03:27:38] I never ever missed a pickup again.
[03:27:45] So what did you do when you graduated from college?
[03:27:47] Then you wrestled all your years of college?
[03:27:49] Yeah I wrestled four years of college.
[03:27:51] Qualified for the Nationals two times and then it was like Brad Leach was a sheriff.
[03:27:58] And what am I going to do?
[03:28:00] I was going to teach school.
[03:28:02] I was doing my professional year teaching school.
[03:28:04] And this kid comes up and I was with my mentor, my proctor.
[03:28:08] And he says, you see this kid walks out of the classroom.
[03:28:12] He says, hey get back in class.
[03:28:15] The kid looks and says fuck you.
[03:28:17] I'm like what?
[03:28:19] He walks out and I said hey what's the deal with that?
[03:28:22] He said no man.
[03:28:24] I said you can't grab his head stuck in the locker.
[03:28:28] He said no you can't do that.
[03:28:30] They'll arrest you.
[03:28:32] I said well I'm not going to be a teacher.
[03:28:34] And I graduated and I was what am I going to do?
[03:28:37] I didn't want to teach school so Brad Leach was a sheriff.
[03:28:40] And he says how would you like to come on to the police department?
[03:28:43] He says then we'll start a dive rescue team since you're in the teams.
[03:28:47] You can shoot and stuff and do that.
[03:28:50] So I was like come down and do the polygraph and gave me the whole test.
[03:28:54] I did everything.
[03:28:56] Polygraph the drug thing I was just from CU right?
[03:28:58] He says you ever done any drugs?
[03:29:00] I'm going what do you mean?
[03:29:02] He says well I'm going to clarify.
[03:29:04] They gave me those pills in Vietnam that speed and they kept us awake all night.
[03:29:10] That was the only thing I'd ever done and maybe down in Mexico a little bit white pills.
[03:29:14] Just a party for the weekend.
[03:29:17] So I thought okay smoking grass I did.
[03:29:21] So how do you justify it?
[03:29:23] Well if you take a lid like this and you smoke it and you share it with people you actually only smoke about that much.
[03:29:28] Maybe a quarter of a lid.
[03:29:30] Other than that did you do any more drugs?
[03:29:33] I said oh no.
[03:29:35] Okay I passed that.
[03:29:37] So then Brad Leach says oh yeah he says you're good.
[03:29:39] He says come on we'll get you to the academy and give you a gun.
[03:29:42] This is for sheriff.
[03:29:44] And I went I said okay so I go home Sunday.
[03:29:47] Go to sleep.
[03:29:48] Wake up and it was like wait a minute.
[03:29:52] Ain't no way I could be a cop.
[03:29:54] If I can't take crap from a 13 year old kid I'm going to kill you.
[03:29:58] I mean I'd fight guys at the bar right?
[03:30:02] But if I'm going to be stalked by somebody and you're going to pull a gun on me I'm going to kill you.
[03:30:08] So I thought I can't do that either.
[03:30:10] So then the fire department came up.
[03:30:12] So it couldn't be a cop.
[03:30:14] It couldn't be a teacher.
[03:30:16] There was a movie called Kung Fu.
[03:30:20] And it was grasshopper stuff.
[03:30:22] It's kind of like everybody in Boulder was kind of like oh the essence of life.
[03:30:27] Shoot I went on all kinds of lines I could pick up on chicks and talk to people and go into school.
[03:30:33] So I was like what am I going to do?
[03:30:36] And so then they were having affirmative action hiring for people of color right?
[03:30:43] 200 people are going to hire one guy on the fire department.
[03:30:47] I didn't know about it.
[03:30:48] Miss Martinez who my mom was going to kick the shit out of calling me father right?
[03:30:54] She calls him and says hey they're hiring firefighters in Boulder.
[03:30:56] They're going to hire one.
[03:30:57] She said why don't you try it?
[03:30:59] So I'm like see, air, land and fire.
[03:31:04] Four elements of life.
[03:31:06] Just like directions.
[03:31:07] North, south, east and west.
[03:31:09] I mean it was all coming together and I was really getting sensitized to this.
[03:31:13] I almost became a Buddhist.
[03:31:14] I was thinking about all that stuff.
[03:31:16] So I said yeah okay I'll try it.
[03:31:18] And I was wrestling at CU right?
[03:31:21] I was running 15 miles.
[03:31:23] I was in good shape.
[03:31:25] And at that time it was push-ups, sit-ups, chin-ups and all that other kind of stuff.
[03:31:31] So I kicked everybody's butt on that.
[03:31:33] I had an afro, my mustache.
[03:31:36] You know because I had a, you know you got a little cool up there at CU.
[03:31:40] You know it's the whole hippie looking thing right?
[03:31:43] And so I do the interview and stuff and they're like oh yeah you really, there's a seal team.
[03:31:50] What was that?
[03:31:51] I said well not really much.
[03:31:53] I said you know I got to wear shades, wear swimming trunks and just kind of hung out on the beach and stuff.
[03:31:59] It was red boats, oh okay.
[03:32:03] So that's the Navy.
[03:32:04] I said yeah.
[03:32:05] I didn't tell them what the teams, they didn't even know what the teams were.
[03:32:07] You know I did have a jacket, had UDT on it because seal team didn't have a, but I had a UDT patch right?
[03:32:13] In my fire now it's all gone but.
[03:32:16] And when I hitchhiked home from the Navy.
[03:32:20] When I got out?
[03:32:23] When I got out nobody picked me up because I want to know what I fought for.
[03:32:26] Two old ladies picked me up in New Mexico.
[03:32:29] These other Mexican guys picked me up.
[03:32:30] No wonder they frisked me.
[03:32:31] I had my 38 in the back.
[03:32:34] They frisked me but I was sitting in the back.
[03:32:36] I think I ought to pull this thing out and say okay guys everybody out of the, but I didn't.
[03:32:40] Then when I got to, we were in the Colorado some coyotes were, were stalking me.
[03:32:45] I think I'm going to come back in Vietnam and get eaten by the damn coyotes.
[03:32:49] Then the guy in a tractor trailer truck tried to run over me.
[03:32:52] He thought I was a cow.
[03:32:53] He stopped and gave me a ride into Colorado.
[03:32:56] That's how I got home from the Navy.
[03:32:59] So I said yeah, I'll do this.
[03:33:02] Took the interviews and everything.
[03:33:04] He said well yeah, but you got that stuff there boy.
[03:33:07] All white haired guys, blue eyed from Nebraska.
[03:33:12] I said well I'll just try it.
[03:33:18] I said well he shaves off.
[03:33:20] I mean my hair's been cut shorter. I can shave my mustache.
[03:33:23] I'm not, okay.
[03:33:25] So I show up.
[03:33:28] I was drinking, you know, I was still, I was still over here.
[03:33:33] I was going, I didn't know I was going through post-traumatic stress.
[03:33:38] When you look at the behaviors now I know I was, but um.
[03:33:42] And the behaviors are drinking, fighting.
[03:33:44] All of that stuff.
[03:33:45] Just the whole night.
[03:33:46] Racism, sexism, you know, screw the white guys and whatever.
[03:33:49] So I'm telling you about, you know, you finalize yourself as a frogman
[03:33:53] and you're pretty clean about who you are, right?
[03:33:56] But then when you don't fit, you don't feel that you don't fit,
[03:33:59] then you start bringing all this stuff back, right?
[03:34:02] That's the socialization piece because that's easy to fall back into, right?
[03:34:06] So I got out of the fire department.
[03:34:09] I was like, this guy says, yeah kid, you know where you belong?
[03:34:15] He says we're going to get along fine on this department, right?
[03:34:18] So I put up with that for about, well, five months later, I was drinking
[03:34:25] and I was, it was already the beginning.
[03:34:27] I, I had lacerated my liver, three holes in my duodenum.
[03:34:32] I got this, this cut here.
[03:34:34] I have one down my leg lacerated my liver, right in the motorcycle,
[03:34:38] drinking and going back over to Denver.
[03:34:42] The one thing cool about those guys was they covered for me because I had
[03:34:45] no sick or vacation.
[03:34:47] We worked every other day for three days and we were off four days.
[03:34:50] So if you'd have 10 days off, you had to offer a month.
[03:34:53] So 20 guys, 20 shifts were covered for me and I paid those shifts back when I got back to work,
[03:34:59] but I kept my job.
[03:35:01] So I'm going, well, it's pretty cool.
[03:35:04] Waking up at seven o'clock in the morning, the same thing as waking up at seven at night if you're drunk.
[03:35:09] And every other day thing is got to call up, oh, shut up, I'm sick.
[03:35:12] Hey, you know, I'm calling in sick.
[03:35:14] They go, well, you're on a four day.
[03:35:15] You don't come back.
[03:35:17] I said, when do I go back?
[03:35:18] Three more days.
[03:35:19] Oh, so I'd use all my sick, my vacation.
[03:35:22] There's times I wasn't coming to work.
[03:35:24] I mean, it was, it was hard because it was so free.
[03:35:28] I didn't have structure and even when I was wrestling in college, my wrestling coach,
[03:35:33] I wanted to go back to the, I want to go back to war.
[03:35:36] I'd be drunk.
[03:35:37] I smoke him a cigarette in the bar and say, hey, man, I just want to let you know I want to leave.
[03:35:41] Shelby Wilson, Olympic champion.
[03:35:44] He said, well, girls, if you want to quit, I'll tell the team you can go.
[03:35:49] Son of a gun.
[03:35:53] So I didn't quit.
[03:35:54] I struggled the last, you know, they struggled, you know, standing in college because of that
[03:35:59] quit thing.
[03:36:00] I couldn't let them, I couldn't let myself down to let them down because I never quit
[03:36:06] anything in my life.
[03:36:08] Right.
[03:36:10] So.
[03:36:12] So how long did it take like at, as a firefighter, at what point did you start to kind of figure
[03:36:20] out that maybe all this drinking wasn't so good for you, maybe that you were, uh, had
[03:36:25] some stuff you needed to sort out?
[03:36:28] Well, finally, if I, who I was, right, I'm on, I'm on the first fire call.
[03:36:32] I go out, but I'm a cup of coffee down.
[03:36:35] We go out of going to call them.
[03:36:36] There's this guy trapped like this in a vehicle or in a building in a vehicle.
[03:36:41] Car wreck.
[03:36:42] So I'm looking at him and I'm like, what do I do?
[03:36:45] He says, here it's hold the whole skin.
[03:36:47] So we're doing an education.
[03:36:48] We'll tell you what to do.
[03:36:49] Car catches on fire, open up.
[03:36:51] I'm like, all right.
[03:36:53] So I'm sitting there watching this guy and they're trying to get him cut open and stuff.
[03:36:58] And I remember it had that.
[03:37:00] I'm not going to drink anymore.
[03:37:02] Uh, I'd had that.
[03:37:04] I think it's a diuretic.
[03:37:06] So anyway, I took a cup of coffee, right?
[03:37:11] First cup of coffee, man, sit there and boom, get a call.
[03:37:14] I put it down.
[03:37:15] We take off.
[03:37:16] I'm sitting there watching this guy and all I could think of when I was watching him was,
[03:37:23] look, man, why don't you just hurry up and fucking die?
[03:37:25] Cause I know you're going to die.
[03:37:27] My coffee's getting cold.
[03:37:28] You know, that's where I was.
[03:37:31] So they cut him apart and he died.
[03:37:33] Right.
[03:37:34] I go back, I grab my cup of coffee, take a sip and I went, it's cold.
[03:37:38] And I went, okay, what's happening?
[03:37:44] What, what's happened to me?
[03:37:46] When my dad told me, he says, don't forget that you're a human being.
[03:37:49] Right.
[03:37:50] And I saw this go down and I had no feelings.
[03:37:53] Nothing is like getting disconnected over over in Vietnam, getting disconnected.
[03:38:02] This space and time and not discharging, you know, cause when you're there, I wasn't
[03:38:10] discharging anymore.
[03:38:11] I wasn't crying.
[03:38:12] I wasn't laughing.
[03:38:13] It wasn't mean even now.
[03:38:14] Sometimes some kids just say, well, Mr. Espinoles really doesn't have a sense of humor.
[03:38:18] Cause sometimes I don't, you know, even on the fire department, I'd look at somebody and
[03:38:22] they'd say, I think this guy's trying to kill me.
[03:38:24] You know, but so it was like, okay, that was the thinking about it.
[03:38:28] And I, I became very best friends with this guy named Billy Durand.
[03:38:33] He was an Air Force guy, right?
[03:38:35] He's a firefighter.
[03:38:37] So as I got on the fire department, they told me, you remember where you belong and this
[03:38:43] and all that kind of stuff.
[03:38:44] And then about the fifth year, I mean, four years, because it was easy.
[03:38:49] I was drinking.
[03:38:51] I was getting paid good money.
[03:38:52] I spent most of my money on a bar tap.
[03:38:55] I'd buy in for everybody.
[03:38:56] You know, I went to the bar.
[03:38:57] You know, I wasn't even taking vacations.
[03:39:00] I was just using my time and drinking and fighting and whatever.
[03:39:04] And I was not happy.
[03:39:08] It's kind of like, um, what am I doing here?
[03:39:19] So then there was a training fire.
[03:39:21] I was the second guy.
[03:39:22] I was, I was, I was the third engine to go in and do this training fire.
[03:39:25] So as a training fire, is that they set a building on fire that's going to be demoed
[03:39:30] or something like that.
[03:39:31] So there's taking advantage of a building that's going to be demoed.
[03:39:34] What they were doing is they were doing smoke training.
[03:39:36] And in the smoke training, there was a new lieutenant.
[03:39:38] So this older lieutenant was trying to train the see how it kind of macho man.
[03:39:44] He was, he was, he could really fight fire and what kind of smoke usually was.
[03:39:48] I was at another station, Billy Durand and this other young kid had one month on the job.
[03:39:53] Well, if you burn tires, it's a hydrocarbon.
[03:39:56] The temperatures in this chicken coop over the period of time,
[03:39:59] so there was three or four other evolutions that happened in that same building.
[03:40:02] It lowered the flash point, right?
[03:40:04] So at one point it ignited, killed Builder and killed the other kid, the lieutenant that was in charge.
[03:40:12] He suffered some burns.
[03:40:13] The lieutenant that was in charge of the engine company, 80% burns on his body.
[03:40:18] So he died.
[03:40:19] You know, he got burned up and the Billy died.
[03:40:23] And for me, it was kind of like there was, there was something was going on too,
[03:40:27] because I was pretty violent and previous, you know, when, when that happened,
[03:40:34] I got fed up with everything, right?
[03:40:39] And so one day, no, I know I felt about not having any feelings.
[03:40:47] Billy Durand getting killed, all this petty ass bullshit was like,
[03:40:52] for instance, a black guy was walking with a girl, right?
[03:40:56] And I'm sitting there and they go, look at that.
[03:40:58] I said, look at what?
[03:40:59] It's that black guy with that woman, white woman.
[03:41:02] What do you think about that?
[03:41:04] I said, what I think about it is who's me walking out there for that woman.
[03:41:07] You'd be on the inside looking at me and saying, look at that guy.
[03:41:10] What's he doing with that white woman?
[03:41:11] You know, that's what I think about it.
[03:41:14] You know, it doesn't mean nothing to me.
[03:41:16] And so then it was, so then I got fed up with that.
[03:41:19] So I was in a dive locker, right?
[03:41:20] Because I'm doing diving, kind of trying to reorganize the dive team at my level.
[03:41:27] And one guy was talking about, he had a little booby trap cleaning up, petty ass bullshit,
[03:41:31] you know, kind of like cleaning up.
[03:41:33] He was an officer, set me up that I didn't clean up the space in on the engineer's room.
[03:41:39] So I said went up in the officer's room.
[03:41:41] He didn't clean it up.
[03:41:42] He got on me for not cleaning up mine.
[03:41:44] So I got on him, but not cleaned up his.
[03:41:45] He said, why didn't you just clean it then?
[03:41:47] I said, why didn't you just clean yours?
[03:41:49] As a matter of fact, I grabbed hold of the door, closed it.
[03:41:52] He says, what are you doing?
[03:41:54] I said, I want to tell you what, man, today you kicked the shit out of me or I kicked the shit out of you.
[03:41:58] Because I'm tired of all your white man bullshit and all of this traditional firefighter bullshit.
[03:42:03] He goes, whoa, whoa, wait, wait a minute, wait, wait, wait.
[03:42:06] What do you mean?
[03:42:07] I said, where are you from?
[03:42:08] He said, I'm from Lincoln.
[03:42:10] Yeah, I said, where's your people from?
[03:42:12] Well, we're Germans.
[03:42:13] I said, were you raised here?
[03:42:16] He said, no.
[03:42:17] I said, well, I was raised here.
[03:42:18] My dad, we're from the Peacree's Pueblo.
[03:42:20] So I'm from, I was born in Colorado.
[03:42:22] I said, did you ever kill a commie for mommy?
[03:42:25] He was, what?
[03:42:27] I said, did you ever, you ever in the military?
[03:42:29] Did you ever kill a commie for mommy, man?
[03:42:31] Well, no, you know I'm not.
[03:42:34] I'm not in the military.
[03:42:35] I said, well, they don't give me this shit about where I belong or anything else.
[03:42:40] He said, whoa, whoa, whoa, wait a minute, God.
[03:42:41] I don't know where this is coming from.
[03:42:43] I said, we don't know where it's coming from.
[03:42:44] This is affirmative action bullshit that all you white guys are talking about.
[03:42:47] It says, and I'm not buying into it.
[03:42:49] I'm a frog man.
[03:42:51] He goes, wait, wait, wait a minute.
[03:42:54] He says, you know, on this fire department, if they have fires, they want you with them
[03:43:01] because you're a good firefighter.
[03:43:03] Estrification now, you're good at extrication.
[03:43:06] They want you with them.
[03:43:08] They go into a bar fight, they go into the bars, they want you with them because you know most of the guys anyway in Boulder, right?
[03:43:14] EMS, they know you know EMS and they can count on you on the engines.
[03:43:21] He says, but there's more to being an all around firefighter and you're not doing it.
[03:43:27] I said, what's that?
[03:43:29] He says, coming to work on time, coming to work, not being on suspension and not being hungover.
[03:43:37] Boom, man.
[03:43:40] In my mind, I heard my dad say, Gibi, the only thing I give you is my last name, don't bring dishonor on it.
[03:43:50] And then he says, you know, I said, well, I don't give a shit.
[03:43:53] I said, I'm getting connected to go to Saudi Arabia as a weapons instructor.
[03:43:58] Got connected to, it was called Brown Magazine, Soldier Fortune Magazine.
[03:44:02] I already got accepted and they're going to give me 100,000 for the year.
[03:44:06] But if I got killed, they, my family didn't get it.
[03:44:10] It was totally disconnected, total, you know, and I said, that's what I'm doing.
[03:44:15] So I don't give a shit.
[03:44:17] But then I was going to put my two weeks notice.
[03:44:19] There was a Friday, I was going to put my two weeks notice in and be gone.
[03:44:23] He says, well, when you do that, he says everybody's going to be glad that you're gone because your reputation sucks.
[03:44:33] So I went over to the door, I opened it up, I stepped out and I closed the door and left him in there.
[03:44:38] I went over to the, the, the dorm where the beds were and I laid down and I thought, shit, I can't leave here until my reputation's right.
[03:44:49] So the next day I go to Monday, I go to the chief.
[03:44:53] So I'm going to tell you what, man, this is, I'm going to come to work on time.
[03:44:56] I'm not going to be hungover.
[03:44:57] I'm trying to max out my, my vacation days, my six days and that's why I'm giving you my word as a, as a, as a man.
[03:45:06] My word period, not as a man.
[03:45:08] I'm giving you my word.
[03:45:09] Okay, Gil, that's cool.
[03:45:11] Everything's good.
[03:45:12] And he actually gave me some space.
[03:45:15] One of my battalion chiefs told me, is this Gil and my cousin, Davey, when I beat up a guy real badly and my bad chiefs sit there and he says,
[03:45:23] Gil, I don't know if you need a priest, a psychiatrist, a doctor, a counselor or what, but I don't know how to deal with you.
[03:45:33] I said, well, I'm a man, man.
[03:45:35] I'm what a real man is.
[03:45:36] I don't need anybody and there's nothing wrong with this with me.
[03:45:39] The whole world's jacked up, but I'm not, I'm right.
[03:45:42] Everybody else is, you know.
[03:45:44] So anyway, I made that commitment to him.
[03:45:49] Two shifts later, I'm in a fire.
[03:45:52] I fall in a hole.
[03:45:54] My lieutenant falls over me and tears later on toward my ACL out, but I'd given him my word.
[03:46:04] So I a-strapped my knee for a month and worked like that.
[03:46:12] And so then later on we're doing training fire.
[03:46:15] And I jumped off the apparatus and it caught my leg just right.
[03:46:22] And, ah, man.
[03:46:23] So then I went to the hospital and they said, oh yeah, you tore your meniscus and your ACL has been torn for a long time.
[03:46:30] So then I had to rehab.
[03:46:33] So that was the beginning of me now becoming a firefighter that I can't leave until I get all this stuff straight.
[03:46:41] And so then the part of being revealed again, when I got on that job, when we moved to Boulder, my dad's first job was working at Fire Station 2.
[03:46:52] Shoveling snow.
[03:46:53] He was a laborer.
[03:46:54] So he comes home and I said, how would you do today, dad?
[03:46:58] I was like 10.
[03:47:00] Well, it was after the hunting, right?
[03:47:02] Maybe 11.
[03:47:03] No, I was younger.
[03:47:04] I was like before the hunting thing.
[03:47:06] So I was at the fire department.
[03:47:08] What were you doing?
[03:47:09] So I was working with the fire department.
[03:47:11] What did you do?
[03:47:12] I shoveled snow off the roof.
[03:47:14] I said, oh, what were the firemen doing?
[03:47:17] Oh, they were in there smoking cigarettes, watching TV and drinking coffee.
[03:47:21] He says, I think I could do that job.
[03:47:23] You know, I said, yeah, he says, yes, I could do that job.
[03:47:26] That's cool.
[03:47:27] So I became a firefighter.
[03:47:30] My mom, when I became a firefighter, has a piece of paper.
[03:47:34] It was in a book.
[03:47:35] It's called First Latinos in Boulder County.
[03:47:38] And I have a copy of it.
[03:47:40] And in it is a thing that I wrote when I was in fourth grade or third grade.
[03:47:44] I was a shitty handwriting.
[03:47:46] So when I grow up, I want to be a fireman.
[03:47:50] I might ring the bell.
[03:47:51] I wear the rubber coat, the rubber coat, the boots and the hat.
[03:47:56] And we'll go on a fire truck real fast.
[03:47:58] And I'll ring the bell and I might sleep in the fire station.
[03:48:01] She gave that to me.
[03:48:03] And I went, I didn't even know it, right?
[03:48:06] Oh, my first assignment is station two.
[03:48:09] I walk in with my bunker goats, go out in the stuff.
[03:48:12] The same station that my dad was, right?
[03:48:15] Put your gear up there, kid.
[03:48:17] All right, put my gear up.
[03:48:19] And I walked into the lounge.
[03:48:22] I looked out the windows where I know my dad was looking in.
[03:48:26] And in here, right?
[03:48:29] I love God because God talks to your spirit, you know, those things.
[03:48:32] And it's always a good thing.
[03:48:33] Never ever God telling you, oh, you fucked up or you're bad or whatever it is.
[03:48:37] It's like, hey, now you guys are on the inside.
[03:48:43] Hey, pops, go on the inside now.
[03:48:48] So there I was.
[03:48:49] There was a firefighter in, and I did have a little bit of trouble.
[03:48:56] I was blessed by this guy named JJ that became my lieutenant.
[03:49:00] And when I got there, he says, I heard some stuff about you and what,
[03:49:05] how are we going to make this work?
[03:49:07] And I already made that commitment.
[03:49:08] I says, I'm going to tell you what, so you treat me like a man, not like an idiot or a baby or anything else.
[03:49:14] I said, we're going to get along.
[03:49:15] I said, but don't mess with me.
[03:49:17] So it's a great.
[03:49:19] And, and he actually was my mentor as a lieutenant.
[03:49:23] And then he became a captain.
[03:49:25] So I became a lieutenant.
[03:49:27] And then when he was a captain, but I chief came up, he's the guy who came up and says, I think you should be the bad chief.
[03:49:32] One position.
[03:49:33] I said, I don't know what would be in a bad chief.
[03:49:35] I know what you would be the guy.
[03:49:36] How, how, how many years was this into your career?
[03:49:39] 10, about 10 years.
[03:49:41] So you did a good turnaround once your first five years of kind of.
[03:49:46] Oh, yeah, it was bad.
[03:49:47] Being a jackass.
[03:49:48] It was horrible.
[03:49:49] Once you squared that away, then you turned around and really got on the path of doing the right things.
[03:49:54] That commitment.
[03:49:55] Right.
[03:49:56] That commitment of to myself to not let myself go for my dad for this gun.
[03:50:01] I can't do that.
[03:50:02] You know, so yeah, it was, it was the 10 years.
[03:50:05] And then I remember when he told me to go for bad chief and I tested and then I became the bad chief.
[03:50:15] Then all the sabotaging beliefs come in like your two, I mean, you're too small.
[03:50:19] You're not smart enough.
[03:50:20] You're not all this, all the bullshit that some going on.
[03:50:23] Here we go again.
[03:50:24] I'm driving a fire truck.
[03:50:25] I'm a bad chief.
[03:50:26] I didn't realize that everybody in the county hears what the bad chief says on the air.
[03:50:32] And that's a lot of pressure.
[03:50:34] That's like being an incident commander.
[03:50:35] Right.
[03:50:36] I mean, you got the off and stuff, all the air off stuff, all the stuff you say, everybody
[03:50:40] hears, everybody knows everything that you said or think about.
[03:50:43] Right.
[03:50:44] I'm driving down the road.
[03:50:45] I'm going, Oh my God, I even got a panic attack.
[03:50:47] Man, I pull off the side of the road and going, what the hell did I, what are you doing here?
[03:50:52] What the fuck are you doing here?
[03:50:54] And so I called up this lady as part of the reevaluation council.
[03:50:57] I told her what I was feeling.
[03:50:59] She said, okay, this is sounds kind of weird, but she said, I want you to say this.
[03:51:05] I am completely incapable and incompetent to be the battalion chief.
[03:51:11] I said, what?
[03:51:12] She said, yeah, say that.
[03:51:14] So I went, all right, I'm totally completely incapable and incompetent to be the battalion
[03:51:19] chief.
[03:51:20] So what do you think about that?
[03:51:21] I said, I don't know.
[03:51:24] I just kind of, I can't, I'm having a hard time processing that.
[03:51:28] She says, okay, you should now say this.
[03:51:32] And so I said it again, I'm totally completely incapable and incompetent to be the battalion
[03:51:36] chief, right?
[03:51:37] But fortunately or unfortunately, I am the very best person to be the battalion chief.
[03:51:46] So I said that.
[03:51:47] I went, so what do you think about that?
[03:51:50] Yeah, I probably am because it was spooky because at that time, if you became a battalion chief,
[03:51:56] you weren't in union anymore, and that's why a lot of people didn't want to leave the union.
[03:52:00] Because if you screwed up, you're gone.
[03:52:04] That is the sacrificial responsibility piece.
[03:52:06] That's the piece that says, okay, I was going to write a book.
[03:52:12] My book is going to be called Frogman out of water, right?
[03:52:17] Because that's where I was at.
[03:52:19] Now it's changed because of my fire.
[03:52:21] I was going to be Frogman out of fire because there's a whole other dimension about losing
[03:52:25] everything that you ever had in your life, what I just went through with this fire, everything
[03:52:29] I ever had except my kids.
[03:52:33] The greatest treasures in my life, right?
[03:52:39] And being good with them and being bad with them, being a great father with them and being
[03:52:44] a bad father with them, being a good mentor with them and not maybe not being as good
[03:52:48] a mentor as I could be.
[03:52:50] In those three spaces, my dad, he filled those spaces.
[03:52:53] I would hope that I could fill those spaces for my kids.
[03:52:56] That's why even sharing this with you is part of me trying to write my story so that those
[03:53:01] things, these dimensions, the flavor and texture of my life, they understand who the grandpa
[03:53:06] is.
[03:53:07] This is important.
[03:53:08] That's all I have to leave them, right?
[03:53:14] What comes from your heart and what you say?
[03:53:16] When did you end up having kids?
[03:53:19] I was 33.
[03:53:21] So my oldest is 41.
[03:53:24] So were you in the fire department when you started having kids?
[03:53:29] Yeah, I got on fire.
[03:53:31] I met my wife.
[03:53:33] That was crazy.
[03:53:36] I was steaming, man.
[03:53:39] She's a Christian girl.
[03:53:40] I was steaming.
[03:53:41] I met her sister, right?
[03:53:43] And then she comes in and it's like, I wrote a poem and it says, she glowed with the light.
[03:53:51] It was night.
[03:53:52] I didn't know why, but I cared.
[03:53:54] And she's led me softly and gently into the knowledge of love.
[03:53:57] And in May, we three will be one, right?
[03:53:59] When I asked her to marry me.
[03:54:01] Because that night, I went, wow, man, she's hot.
[03:54:03] I mean, there was a devil fighting with an angel, man, because the devil is telling me,
[03:54:10] don't go over there.
[03:54:11] God's telling me, go over there.
[03:54:12] Don't go over there.
[03:54:13] I said, hey, buddy, and the rest goes, Jesus Christ, man, you never having trouble talking
[03:54:16] to girls.
[03:54:17] Go over there and talk to her.
[03:54:18] So I said, hey, would you like to dance?
[03:54:24] I said, I don't dance.
[03:54:26] I said, why not?
[03:54:28] She says, I'm Christian.
[03:54:29] I said, I'm a Catholic.
[03:54:30] I said, but I dance.
[03:54:31] I am not dead.
[03:54:32] She says, no, I don't.
[03:54:33] I said, so my buddy's looking at me.
[03:54:35] So you don't want to lose face.
[03:54:36] I said, well, you mind if I sit down?
[03:54:38] I don't know.
[03:54:39] Good.
[03:54:40] Sure.
[03:54:41] So I sat down.
[03:54:42] I said, well, so it kind of went on.
[03:54:45] So finally she was going to dance with me.
[03:54:47] And that was in the days of platform shoes.
[03:54:49] So I was a lot taller than her.
[03:54:51] Matter of fact, later on, she maybe says, I thought you were taller.
[03:54:56] I love those things.
[03:54:58] But anyway, we did dance.
[03:55:02] And then it was like, and that's what I think maybe when we talk in the spiritual sense,
[03:55:06] where God was trolling with her because all I wanted to do is get laid.
[03:55:10] That was it, right?
[03:55:12] In the teams, the whole sexism thing, the anger thing, all of that, those behaviors.
[03:55:18] And then eventually, you know, it was like, I liked what she had.
[03:55:21] I liked what I was missing, you know?
[03:55:25] And that's what I'm saying that even after you accepted Christ or you get into the Christian
[03:55:29] thing that you'll let loose of it, you'll go somewhere else because the alternatives
[03:55:34] that you've settled for in the past, if you don't keep it in front of you, it's like
[03:55:38] seals or guys that operate, but they don't keep the basic training in front of their
[03:55:43] face.
[03:55:44] And so then they get killed or they hurt somebody or they don't pay attention to it.
[03:55:48] And that's what happens.
[03:55:49] That's the way the world is.
[03:55:51] This is the way that the world is.
[03:55:54] And if we don't take care of it, then we are like sheep led to the slaughter, man.
[03:55:58] We're going to be taken out somewhere, you know?
[03:56:01] And so doing this is part of that.
[03:56:04] The fire department saved my life because of that being able to party or whatever that
[03:56:09] was.
[03:56:10] And then the responsibility that I had as a bad chief to keep my guys alive, to change,
[03:56:16] to tell a captain that has 20 years on the job.
[03:56:19] Hey, man, I need you to do incident command.
[03:56:20] I need you to wear your bunker gear.
[03:56:22] I need you to wear your coat.
[03:56:23] I need you to tell me where you're going.
[03:56:24] And this and that, and he's telling me, I've been doing this for 20 years.
[03:56:28] You've only been on your 10 years and you want to tell me what to do?
[03:56:32] And the frogman stuff comes out and I go, yeah.
[03:56:35] So, well, you don't know as much as I do.
[03:56:39] I said, no, but I do know about being in combat.
[03:56:41] I know about getting shot at.
[03:56:43] I do know what the war we're fighting.
[03:56:45] I do know the training that we need.
[03:56:47] And the other thing I know is that Chief Gustavus' wife told me a long time ago, if I get you
[03:56:52] killed, I'm in trouble.
[03:56:55] And Karen is the one that I'm worried about.
[03:56:57] And so for me to tell you to put on your bunker gear and everything else is easy.
[03:57:02] And I'll write your ass up if you don't.
[03:57:04] You wouldn't do that to me.
[03:57:05] I said, try it.
[03:57:06] Oh, God, so good, man.
[03:57:09] There's a fire alarm.
[03:57:10] What do your grades go, man?
[03:57:11] They go out on a fire alarm.
[03:57:12] He gets off the truck.
[03:57:13] I just followed him.
[03:57:14] Just two engine response.
[03:57:15] And then me, I rolled up, I sit on the corner.
[03:57:19] I didn't go arrive.
[03:57:20] I didn't tell my response.
[03:57:22] I just followed him.
[03:57:24] And I don't have to run on a fire alarm.
[03:57:27] So I'm waiting.
[03:57:28] I watch him get out of the truck and he looks down the street.
[03:57:31] Excuse me.
[03:57:34] Gets back up in his truck, puts on his helmet, grabs his gear, throws it down, puts on his
[03:57:38] coat, puts on his stuff.
[03:57:39] He looks at me and he goes in the building.
[03:57:41] So he had 25, I think it was 2501 at that time.
[03:57:45] It was engine one.
[03:57:46] I'm a rival sprinkler alarm third floor.
[03:57:50] So I heard that.
[03:57:52] Nothing visible.
[03:57:53] I just left that night.
[03:57:57] And this is where I learned a lot about his example too, was if I'm going to have this
[03:58:02] stuff going down with somebody, an officer, good officer takes that, especially an ex-host
[03:58:06] or somebody to another room, not in front of the people.
[03:58:10] So he said, can I talk to you?
[03:58:11] I said, yes.
[03:58:17] His office, because the captain had one.
[03:58:18] He said, yeah.
[03:58:19] He says, you wouldn't have wrote me up, would you?
[03:58:21] I saw you.
[03:58:22] And this guy said, yeah, I would.
[03:58:29] Okay.
[03:58:30] After that, he talked to me on the radio, because when we were fighting fires, he loved
[03:58:34] to see me show up, because we'd gone into some fires where other people are bailing
[03:58:38] out.
[03:58:39] So he knew how I would fight fires.
[03:58:41] And I gave him that respect.
[03:58:43] He gave me that respect.
[03:58:44] And my whole shift after a while, all the promotions were coming off my shift, because
[03:58:49] I wanted to do what we did in the teams.
[03:58:51] I want to teach you to take my job.
[03:58:54] I want you to be better than me.
[03:58:56] If you know more than me, and you're better than me, when things go down, you'll see
[03:59:00] what I can't see.
[03:59:02] That's what I loved about the team.
[03:59:04] So for one of my misters saying some stuff, and then for one of my teammates going, you
[03:59:09] fucking crazy?
[03:59:10] Why are we going to do that?
[03:59:13] And it wasn't like, who has the bigger sword, right?
[03:59:19] It's like, tell me why, because of this.
[03:59:23] Yeah, it makes sense.
[03:59:26] So that's why when we look at the history of the teams, my era and your era, is that
[03:59:31] I don't know, and I'll never be able to, but that's what I want back in the teams.
[03:59:37] That's what I want in fire departments.
[03:59:39] I want all my guys to know more than me, because, I mean, there was like, oh, why do we want
[03:59:44] to do hazmat?
[03:59:45] Because I brought hazmat in, because I was the little guy on the end of the ladder,
[03:59:50] I did ice rescue, way different.
[03:59:51] That's where the Gumbi suits came from me, because they shoved my ass out there with
[03:59:54] bunker gear on.
[03:59:55] Well, hell no, I'm not going to do this.
[03:59:57] There's a better way.
[03:59:59] Ice diving, we always ice dove in wetsuits.
[04:00:02] There's dry suits, there's stuff that we can wear, right?
[04:00:05] Swift water, right?
[04:00:06] Teach guys how to be around swift water, because if they don't know, they die.
[04:00:11] That's the thing.
[04:00:12] You learn something, you die, the consequences of our mistakes, the consequences of our business
[04:00:17] being in the teams, being in fire, and being a cop, right?
[04:00:25] And so, you mentioned this a couple times, but it's a very horrible and ironic end to
[04:00:36] your fire career is that when you, when you retired from the fire department and you ended
[04:00:41] up losing everything in a fire.
[04:00:47] And it's the, it's the Marshall fire, December 30th, 20, this is just, just what last year?
[04:00:53] It'll be a year coming up.
[04:00:55] 2021.
[04:00:56] New years.
[04:00:57] This fire breaks out, you're retired.
[04:00:59] You're just enjoying life.
[04:01:02] This fire breaks out in Colorado, wing gusts of 115 miles an hour.
[04:01:07] There's 6,000 acres burned, 184, sorry, 1,084 structures, either totally destroyed or damaged.
[04:01:16] $500 million worth of damage.
[04:01:20] Two people killed, some other burn injuries.
[04:01:24] And one of the things that burned was your house.
[04:01:27] How the, how did this happen?
[04:01:29] In Old Town, that's my house is in Old Town Superior.
[04:01:33] They're still looking at the causes of it, but they do know that fire happened and then
[04:01:37] the wind gusts came in, like you said, at 100 miles an hour.
[04:01:41] And when that, when the fuels are that way, there, it's like, you ever take like a, like
[04:01:45] a torch when you're doing heating a pipe?
[04:01:47] Yeah.
[04:01:48] And go, that's the kind of fire it was.
[04:01:50] It was a super heated, wind driven fire.
[04:01:53] And so the contact is not only just a conflagration of one structure to the next structure, it's
[04:01:59] also the heat and fire generated by the, by the winds, right?
[04:02:04] So did you get evacuated?
[04:02:05] You know where I was?
[04:02:06] No idea.
[04:02:07] I went and got my ex-wife because there's a Marine, right?
[04:02:11] A little Marine, red rich.
[04:02:14] He said, hey, I saw him at the bowling alley.
[04:02:16] You want to come down and watch me?
[04:02:17] And he always invites me, but I never go.
[04:02:19] He's a muffler guy.
[04:02:20] I'm going, so I, he says, I'd like to see Rose because we were just the normal might like
[04:02:26] you didn't know anything about a fire because this thing happened.
[04:02:28] Nothing.
[04:02:29] And he says, the normal night he says, you want to come watch me bowling bowling?
[04:02:31] Yeah.
[04:02:32] So I go, I put on my seal, tried and put on my Marine, the flat jacket with the seal
[04:02:36] tried on it.
[04:02:37] So we're going to go see the Marine, you know, put on a crappy shirt and put on my boots,
[04:02:41] left my dog chief in a kennel, right?
[04:02:44] I put him in the kennel because he eats my stuff.
[04:02:47] So I that night, that day I told Rose, I'll pick you up.
[04:02:50] Usually she would come to my house.
[04:02:53] Then we would go.
[04:02:54] If she'd have come into my house, her house would have, her car would have been burned
[04:02:56] up.
[04:02:57] And I told her, I told her, I'm going to go to the Jaguar that my buddy, the team guy
[04:03:00] had sold me.
[04:03:01] It was in there.
[04:03:02] I had my coat and we took my truck.
[04:03:05] I'm in Denver at the bowling alley.
[04:03:07] I get this call from a neighbor.
[04:03:09] Hey, Gil, yeah, you got a reverse 911.
[04:03:11] You got to get out of superior.
[04:03:13] You get it?
[04:03:14] I said, no, I reverse 911 is when make notification of something's coming.
[04:03:18] Well, I wasn't, I didn't get that notification.
[04:03:22] For some reason I wasn't on the, on the callback.
[04:03:25] I said, really?
[04:03:26] He goes, yeah.
[04:03:27] So prior to that, the girl that I was dating, we'd broken up.
[04:03:30] She called me too and said, Hey, you know, there's reverse 911.
[04:03:34] I said, yeah.
[04:03:35] I didn't know at that time.
[04:03:37] She said, well, I can go down and I'm not in town.
[04:03:41] I can go down and pick chief up.
[04:03:42] I said, nah, I don't want to be beholding to her, right?
[04:03:46] I'll find somebody.
[04:03:47] And so then, then that's when the other neighbor called me up.
[04:03:50] I said, nah, I didn't know him well enough.
[04:03:51] I'll call one of the other neighbors, guys that were in my neighborhood.
[04:03:55] They were all gone.
[04:03:56] I broke up on the hill watching the fire.
[04:03:58] So then I get the callback from the first guy.
[04:04:01] He says, guilt.
[04:04:02] He says, my buddy that was down there, he says, broke your door down and he's got your
[04:04:06] dog.
[04:04:07] I said, broke my door down because I don't like my doors.
[04:04:10] You know, that's kind of the community.
[04:04:12] He says, yeah, he broke your door down.
[04:04:14] He says, broke my door down.
[04:04:15] He says, don't be mad.
[04:04:16] I said, I'm not mad, but he had to break my door down.
[04:04:18] He goes, yeah, because I was thinking it was evacuation, not the fire.
[04:04:25] And so then the other thing too, then I asked the guy who lived wrong when I got him, when
[04:04:32] I picked up my dog, I said, what did you close the door?
[04:04:35] Because if the door is open, I always leave the upstairs open so that my dog can look
[04:04:40] out.
[04:04:41] So then what that does is it creates a draft.
[04:04:44] It creates a draft, a chimney, right?
[04:04:46] So I'm going, well, that doesn't sound good.
[04:04:49] So two days later, because they wouldn't let us in, two days later, I called another one
[04:04:53] of my firefighters from Boulder and said, hey, so can you get down there and check it
[04:04:56] out?
[04:04:57] So I'll check it out, chief.
[04:04:59] So then I've already been retired for 10 years, right?
[04:05:03] 2012, yeah.
[04:05:04] Did you see it on the news?
[04:05:06] Yeah, yeah, but it wasn't showing real close-ups.
[04:05:08] Everything was from way back.
[04:05:10] Got it.
[04:05:11] And they were saying that Old Town was affected, but they didn't talk about the devastation
[04:05:16] because nobody was getting down there.
[04:05:18] And so I'm like, well, whatever, only easy days yesterday, man.
[04:05:24] Can I change the temperature of the water?
[04:05:26] No.
[04:05:27] Right?
[04:05:28] That's what I mean.
[04:05:30] The development of that, the revealing of who I am is that little boy going, hey, I can
[04:05:36] only take care of what I can take care of, right?
[04:05:39] And one of my friends' friends, well, actually Rose, my ex-wife, her friend said, I can't
[04:05:46] believe you're so calm about it.
[04:05:49] You know, other people, I can't believe you're so calm about it.
[04:05:53] Time and chance, man.
[04:05:54] A guy gets killed, you don't get killed.
[04:05:57] What can he do about it?
[04:05:58] You can have, feel bad about it, but you can't change it.
[04:06:02] You can have the emotion, right?
[04:06:04] When we talk about things, we tell story and we have these because it's emotional, right?
[04:06:12] It's emotional because it starts creating in you that piece about who you really are.
[04:06:18] It starts opening it up for you to see yourself, to say, hey, I am going somewhere good or
[04:06:23] I'm not.
[04:06:24] Well, he told me he was mad at God.
[04:06:27] Ah, God, why did God do that?
[04:06:28] I'm a Christian, I'm a bishop and all that other kind of stuff.
[04:06:33] For me, it was like, why would I be mad at him?
[04:06:35] He didn't start it, right?
[04:06:38] And he's invisible.
[04:06:39] He's invisible God, I'm having hope and invisible thing that I can't see anyway.
[04:06:43] And he's given me another house to live in.
[04:06:45] He rescued my dog, right?
[04:06:47] I mean, whatever the deal is.
[04:06:52] And then the guy tells me, well, you know.
[04:06:53] So now this is the firefighter that you knew that you said, can you go check it out?
[04:06:57] Well, no, no, no, the firefighter that he went and checked out, he calls me up and says,
[04:07:01] I said, how are things?
[04:07:02] He goes, better than you, chief.
[04:07:04] I said, yeah, well, he's left.
[04:07:07] He said, nothing.
[04:07:08] I said, I mean, nothing.
[04:07:09] He said, nothing.
[04:07:10] There's, I swear to God, walls, roof, nothing.
[04:07:15] So I went over and I looked with my family.
[04:07:17] The asphalt singles are usually around.
[04:07:19] They were in dust.
[04:07:21] There were no, there were no two by fours in the walls.
[04:07:24] The only thing that was left were gusset plates.
[04:07:26] Things that were metal like stove.
[04:07:29] I had a wood burning stove.
[04:07:30] The only thing that was left was the top, you know, washer, dryers, all gone, everything.
[04:07:36] I looked at some pictures online and it just, there's nothing left but sort of the concrete
[04:07:41] foundations.
[04:07:42] Right.
[04:07:43] And then they took my foundations out.
[04:07:45] That's the other thing, man.
[04:07:47] I felt the full force of water, right?
[04:07:52] Through the surf, right?
[04:07:53] And if you're not prepared for that, it'll jack you up.
[04:07:56] Got to see if it's sniffing for you, right?
[04:07:59] Fire, air.
[04:08:02] You don't have to shoot on, you're going to die, right?
[04:08:06] And to land warfare, man, it moves.
[04:08:08] It's always dynamic, the war piece, right?
[04:08:10] All the jumping, just jumping out of boats and all the whole recovery thing and fire.
[04:08:19] I thought I knew fire.
[04:08:22] I put out a lot of fires.
[04:08:23] There'd been too lot of fires, but that one was totally consuming.
[04:08:26] So when it talks about Sodom and Gomorrah being completely gone, that fire is, you know,
[04:08:35] people would sit there and say, well, it really humbled you, right?
[04:08:39] No.
[04:08:40] Fire, the water, all that, that whole thing.
[04:08:45] The humbling piece was the generosity of people like Mama Lee for her to call me up.
[04:08:50] Say, hey, I understand you've gone through some stuff.
[04:08:53] I don't even know who she is, you know?
[04:08:55] And so I liked that.
[04:08:57] I always want to confirm your number.
[04:08:59] I want to help you out.
[04:09:02] And when she did, she sent, you know, I said, look, man, I see, if you heard it, get to
[04:09:08] Colorado, I need to give you a hug.
[04:09:11] And then something I did, and that's where I ran into you, right?
[04:09:15] That fire, the Southern guy came up, he was a revitalist, the name of the organization.
[04:09:21] It's a firefighters deal.
[04:09:22] The family, the fire family too, right?
[04:09:25] And the frog family, they set up the Navy SEAL fund for me, right?
[04:09:30] A guy, Julio Fitzgibbons, calls me up.
[04:09:32] Hey, SB, yeah.
[04:09:33] Do you know him?
[04:09:35] Yeah.
[04:09:36] Hey, SB, yeah, he says, Class 42, right?
[04:09:40] Well, yeah, I said, what were your top medals?
[04:09:44] So what were your top medals?
[04:09:45] They were Purple Heart, Navy Combination with the V, Combat Action Ribbon.
[04:09:49] Okay, thank you, goodbye.
[04:09:51] So what the hell's that about?
[04:09:53] So then I get a call from Dozenbach.
[04:09:55] Do you know him?
[04:09:56] Anyway, there.
[04:09:57] And so he says, this is...
[04:09:59] I think that's Dozer.
[04:10:01] Yeah, yeah, it is.
[04:10:03] And it's Chris Dozer.
[04:10:04] He says, yeah, he says, well, I got your name from Fitzgibbons.
[04:10:08] He submitted your name into the Navy SEAL fund.
[04:10:10] I said, for what?
[04:10:11] He says, we're going to do a fundraiser for you.
[04:10:15] I'm like, what?
[04:10:18] And he says, yeah, so we'll get back with you.
[04:10:20] Hangs up.
[04:10:21] So I'm like, what the hell's going on here?
[04:10:25] And then this revital guy, named Jordan Long, he's a firefighter, right?
[04:10:31] And he was a firefighter that went through some emotional stuff, quit being a firefighter,
[04:10:37] but he's since then started intervention for post-traumatic stress, firefighters and cops
[04:10:44] really helping them out.
[04:10:45] And so he calls me up.
[04:10:47] So I want you to come down to this place.
[04:10:48] Do you have any coats?
[04:10:50] All I had was that SEAL coat.
[04:10:52] My best coat was burned up.
[04:10:53] All my gloves were burned up.
[04:10:54] My best.
[04:10:55] I'm wearing the most raggedy shoes that I ever had.
[04:10:58] So I show up and I love my gray coat, right?
[04:11:02] So he has a gray coat there and the gloves is here.
[04:11:04] He says, you take these with you.
[04:11:05] I'm like, it was a warmer coat than my coat.
[04:11:08] So God gave me a coat that was warmer than the coat that got burned up.
[04:11:11] Right?
[04:11:12] Give me some shoes.
[04:11:14] They're nice and some gloves.
[04:11:16] And so then this is how the world goes around.
[04:11:22] He says, I got this furniture, this firefighters, whatever the brother law, brother isn't getting
[04:11:32] married, but he has furniture.
[04:11:33] And if you want to go up and look at it.
[04:11:35] I said, all right, up in Dillon, up in Bailey, Colorado.
[04:11:39] So I drive up there.
[04:11:40] Let's get it to do this.
[04:11:41] He said, oh yeah, furniture upstairs.
[04:11:43] We'll go inside.
[04:11:44] He says, this is my cousin.
[04:11:45] He's in the garage, right?
[04:11:46] Oh, nice to meet you.
[04:11:48] I said, I'm Gellisp.
[04:11:50] No, he says, no, he says, you're Espy.
[04:11:53] I look at him and go, what?
[04:11:54] He says, you're Espy.
[04:11:56] He says, I know you.
[04:11:58] I said, where do you know me from?
[04:11:59] He says, you're in Seelton with my dad, Tom Dixon.
[04:12:02] I said, bullshit.
[04:12:03] He goes, no, yeah.
[04:12:06] I knew him when he was a kid, right?
[04:12:08] So there's that Tom Dixon thing, right?
[04:12:10] Seel.
[04:12:12] I grab all my furniture.
[04:12:13] I take it back.
[04:12:14] The house that I have, whatever was referred to by a cop, referred me to another guy, and
[04:12:21] they got the house that I'm renting right now.
[04:12:25] I'm with my daughter.
[04:12:26] We're looking around and she says, dad, look at this house.
[04:12:29] I go, yeah, it's pretty cool.
[04:12:31] It says, no, it says with the floor pattern, the floor layout.
[04:12:35] It's the same as Grandma and Grandpa's house in Pueblo.
[04:12:39] Two bedrooms on the side, front porch, kitchen, and a little basement.
[04:12:47] The chief has a fenced yard.
[04:12:48] He didn't even have a fenced yard where I was at.
[04:12:50] I used to have to yell at him.
[04:12:52] He has a fenced yard.
[04:12:53] I got furniture from another team guy that knows that guy.
[04:13:00] And now I'm meeting two old guys in the dog park that I go to.
[04:13:05] And I really know too much about you, but there's kids whose name's Artum, right?
[04:13:09] He watches your stuff.
[04:13:11] He says, oh, what are you doing?
[04:13:13] I don't know what to do with the podcast with this guy, Jacko.
[04:13:16] Oh, I know him.
[04:13:18] I go, well, he knows your deal.
[04:13:21] I'm going, well, who is he?
[04:13:23] He told me about you.
[04:13:24] And he goes, yeah, there's another guy named Echo.
[04:13:26] He's a big guy.
[04:13:27] I go, yeah, he says, yeah, I want to bring you some shirts.
[04:13:29] He says, you better take some extra lardes.
[04:13:33] You don't see how the circle is, right?
[04:13:37] And there are no coincidences.
[04:13:39] You know, and that fire, I thought I was a seal.
[04:13:45] I thought I was bad.
[04:13:46] I thought, you know, there's this thing, a friend of mine, she told me, she says, I
[04:13:50] think you say that you're not a seal.
[04:13:52] You don't want to identify with it, but I think you do because you got a lot of seal
[04:13:55] stuff, you know?
[04:13:57] So then I started feeling insecure about that.
[04:13:59] That, well, maybe she's right.
[04:14:01] But all my stuff is gone.
[04:14:02] My metals and people have given me back.
[04:14:04] I'm consciously, I mean, I got like some coins and stuff.
[04:14:07] I kind of, I'm hesitant about getting all this stuff back because now I got to keep
[04:14:12] it.
[04:14:13] I got to put it on the wall or I just got this thing from frogman.
[04:14:18] Um, distillery.
[04:14:20] It's called, uh, art, the art of art of the spirit distillery.
[04:14:25] His name is Paul.
[04:14:26] We tapped a keg for Mike Thornton and I was there for that one of two seals.
[04:14:30] Right.
[04:14:31] Now I got a hat, you know, and I got two bottles of whiskey that now it's like, oh, I
[04:14:37] don't want to get too much, you know?
[04:14:39] And, um, because I'm thinking, trying to, trying to build my house.
[04:14:43] That's the other thing is recovering the, the, the, uh, the gap of insurance and all
[04:14:50] that kind of stuff.
[04:14:51] Right.
[04:14:52] And I got one firefighter that's a builder.
[04:14:53] It's going to help me have one guy who's said, I coach wrestling and he's a big builder.
[04:14:57] He's going to help me, but, um, it's where do I feel comfortable in here?
[04:15:04] Right.
[04:15:05] I feel more comfortable with the, with the fire part is going to help me.
[04:15:09] Nothing against the other guy, but, um, how do I feel in here?
[04:15:15] Right.
[04:15:16] So then that's going by, I don't know.
[04:15:19] That's the challenge.
[04:15:20] You know?
[04:15:21] Yeah.
[04:15:22] That's, uh, uh, definitely a devastating story.
[04:15:25] Um, and like I said, I'm okay with it.
[04:15:28] Yeah.
[04:15:29] And that's the amazing thing.
[04:15:30] I was going to say it's a devastating story.
[04:15:31] And for you to be sitting here talking about it, like not quite with a shoulder shrug,
[04:15:35] like almost with a shoulder shrug of like, Hey, guess what?
[04:15:37] I got a better jacket out of the deal.
[04:15:40] And, and Mama Lee, um, I always mentioned her charity, uh, America's mighty warriors.org.
[04:15:47] We always mentioned that.
[04:15:48] And the Navy seals fund.org.
[04:15:50] That's another group that helps out my buddy, Drago.
[04:15:53] That's, oh yeah.
[04:15:54] Yeah.
[04:15:55] Drago started that.
[04:15:56] And his wife, Rachel.
[04:15:57] Yep.
[04:15:58] And she's a great friend of mine.
[04:15:59] And, and just, and so, uh, anybody that wants to help out organizations that help
[04:16:05] out, these are two organizations that Navy seals fund.org and America's mighty warriors.org.
[04:16:10] Those are two awesome organizations.
[04:16:12] Um, that help out.
[04:16:14] This is one case of where, you know, a guy that didn't even ask for it, but somehow
[04:16:19] they figured it out.
[04:16:20] They figured me out.
[04:16:22] It tracked me down, you know, I wonder, it's, it was wonderful.
[04:16:26] Well, I think that probably gets us up to date of where we are now.
[04:16:31] Um, Echo Charles, you got any questions?
[04:16:34] Yeah.
[04:16:35] What do you weigh now?
[04:16:36] About 155.
[04:16:37] There you go.
[04:16:38] What's that, what's that workout program that you're, cause you're 75 years old and
[04:16:41] it looks like if you wanted to step out on our wrestling match, you give some people
[04:16:44] a run.
[04:16:45] What's up?
[04:16:46] What do you eat?
[04:16:48] It's a Rolex watch.
[04:16:49] What do you eat?
[04:16:50] What do you eat?
[04:16:51] Um, I'm going to just some protein, uh, do a little bit of stuff called a super pump.
[04:16:58] Uh, this, this far supplements go, but I struggle to eat.
[04:17:02] I, I hate eating man, but I eat fish and chicken.
[04:17:06] Cool.
[04:17:07] You know, what about them beans?
[04:17:08] Your mom was pushing down your throat.
[04:17:09] I'm done with beans.
[04:17:11] I do like going to Bob's diner in Louisville and get myself a, um, that's my, that's my
[04:17:18] little fix.
[04:17:19] Uh, where was one Charles with chorizo and, and sometimes a bloody Mary.
[04:17:24] What about, uh, what about your PT program that I work out every day?
[04:17:27] What do you do?
[04:17:28] Lifting, right?
[04:17:29] Just, just in tries.
[04:17:31] I do all the splits, old man splits.
[04:17:32] Just tries back and by shoulders and traps, legs, something along those legs, legs, legs
[04:17:37] front legs back.
[04:17:38] I come in here, 75 man is like, oh, yeah, I do the front, front's in back, you know,
[04:17:43] but I, but I do something every day.
[04:17:45] My ankle hurts so badly that I don't do a lot of cardio.
[04:17:48] If I do cardio, it's on the stir-stupper, take it up just one minute at one, one minute
[04:17:53] at two, all the way up to 10, you know, and then back down and then that, that's pretty
[04:17:59] much it.
[04:18:00] I don't know, like I said, I think genetics, you know, my dad was, my dad was a drywaller,
[04:18:07] man.
[04:18:08] He did that stuff till he was 81 years old on the ladder, weren't on stilts with a cigarette
[04:18:12] in his mouth.
[04:18:13] I'm looking, I had firefighters who wouldn't do that.
[04:18:15] You know, I'm like, are you nuts?
[04:18:18] So then I had to move him in with me and I actually, um, Serena went to college at Colorado
[04:18:23] State University in Pueblo and she watched him for three years, watching him do his,
[04:18:28] he's amazing, man.
[04:18:31] He, uh, gave me all that, uh, uh, love, I guess, you know.
[04:18:37] Yeah.
[04:18:38] Wasn't, it wasn't, you know, he wasn't afraid to share himself.
[04:18:44] And I was coaching wrestling for, well, four years ago for four years.
[04:18:48] The number one rule, don't hurt the coach.
[04:18:52] I'd get in me wrestling and tussling if they got in somebody, okay.
[04:18:57] Stop.
[04:18:58] Don't hurt the coach.
[04:18:59] You know, and I didn't realize my, my shoulder was so screwed up, you know.
[04:19:04] And, uh, so I, at some point I needed a shoulder replacement.
[04:19:07] Some point I need to do my ankle.
[04:19:09] I'm trying to find this Navy dock.
[04:19:11] If he ever gets the VA ever helps me do the community care to get that done.
[04:19:16] But, um, no, it's my brother, five years old, man, had me doing stuff.
[04:19:24] When I hit the teams climbing that rope or doing that stuff is like a piece of cake,
[04:19:28] you know, and, uh, but it is, it is, it is that time that's mine.
[04:19:36] You know, and I, and I do, and I do really look at it revealing the little boy, man.
[04:19:42] You know, because I didn't, I was living myself with the outside warrior so much that I destroyed
[04:19:46] so many relationships that I didn't have to destroy.
[04:19:51] And, uh, and, and understanding that I am worth loving.
[04:19:54] I'm where I am a good person, you know.
[04:19:58] And, uh, but now it's where I met with the, I'm back into the nakedness again.
[04:20:02] It's going to be interesting to see where I'm going, you know, as, as where my life's
[04:20:07] at.
[04:20:08] And, um, looking forward to an Oliver or chief Allen or my creator, right?
[04:20:15] You know, I'm not pissed at him.
[04:20:17] You know, all the, all the, all the, the only doing is saying, Hey, I want you and I'm
[04:20:21] leading you here and, and, uh, keep yours open.
[04:20:26] What's the instructor's pay attention.
[04:20:28] Right.
[04:20:29] I used to do that with my five right to pay attention.
[04:20:31] I'd look at him sometime when this guy lieutenant, uh, was asking, he gives you a chief.
[04:20:35] So yeah, he says, what'd you do to it?
[04:20:37] His name.
[04:20:38] I said, I didn't do anything to him.
[04:20:39] What's up?
[04:20:40] He said, well, I came over and says, I think the chief hates me.
[04:20:42] He says, why is that?
[04:20:44] Cause he just looked at me and I felt it.
[04:20:50] And that comes from instructors, right?
[04:20:51] It comes from the Oliver.
[04:20:53] It comes from chief Allen.
[04:20:54] It comes from instructor going, it just lives.
[04:21:02] And he said, I just told him that's your face sometimes.
[04:21:05] That's what you looked like.
[04:21:08] Well, Gil, uh, any other closing thoughts?
[04:21:12] No, I just want to thank you.
[04:21:15] I appreciate the opportunity, uh, that, that I'm here.
[04:21:20] I was pretty apprehensive about it.
[04:21:22] I wasn't quite sure, but then it just, uh, um, I'm grateful to the creator that you're
[04:21:32] here and that, that we're here together.
[04:21:34] And I'm glad, I'm glad you made it through.
[04:21:37] And just, I'm just prayer blessing on you.
[04:21:41] Well, um, thank you.
[04:21:44] Definitely appreciate it.
[04:21:45] Um, definitely, you know, blessed to be here as we all are.
[04:21:49] Um, and, and just thank you.
[04:21:51] Thank you for, you know, thank you for laying that groundwork in the teams, the, the, the,
[04:21:56] the groundwork that you guys that, that we built off of, that we tried to maintain the,
[04:22:01] the reputation that you guys earned and we always did our best.
[04:22:05] So thank you for doing that.
[04:22:06] Thank you for your service in the Navy and the teams.
[04:22:09] And of course 30, how many years as a firefighter, 37, 37 years as a firefighter.
[04:22:16] Um, and just that, that level of service, uh, can't thank you enough.
[04:22:22] Appreciate you coming.
[04:22:23] Thank you.
[04:22:24] Who, yeah.
[04:22:25] Who, yeah.
[04:22:27] And with that, Gil Espinosa has left the building and I think makes it pretty clear that getting
[04:22:35] after it is a lifelong mission.
[04:22:38] It's a lifelong mission and you know, it was very interesting and awesome to hear somebody
[04:22:46] that's been doing all kinds of things, badass things from being a seal in Vietnam to being
[04:22:55] a firefighter, to being a wrestler at a really high level.
[04:23:02] And he's 75 years old and he's like, I'm still trying to figure it out.
[04:23:05] So pretty awesome.
[04:23:07] Oh yeah.
[04:23:08] The parts that stood out to me, which was funny is the black mac and pink mac.
[04:23:14] Oh yeah.
[04:23:15] And you're like, why do you call him black?
[04:23:16] I was like, bro, I know exactly why.
[04:23:18] Cause he's black.
[04:23:19] Yeah.
[04:23:20] So interesting.
[04:23:21] Well, you take that.
[04:23:23] That is the, that is the, uh, assumption and it's a, it's a correct assumption to make.
[04:23:29] Oh, in seeing the teams, whatever, whatever, like if you're a Mexican, you're going to
[04:23:35] have some kind of Mexican nickname.
[04:23:36] If you're black, not guaranteed, but most likely you're going to have some kind of something
[04:23:41] that has to do with your ethnicity.
[04:23:43] Yeah.
[04:23:44] Makes sense.
[04:23:45] Because it's like, that's just, that's just how, that's just how, uh, well, in Hawaii,
[04:23:49] I told you this before, in Hawaii race, racial issues is not a thing, not a big deal at all.
[04:23:55] Everybody's mixed and there's so, and there's so many races or whatever.
[04:23:58] So to say, Oh, the Filipino guy, Oh, the black guy or popolo guy, you say popolo for black
[04:24:04] guy or the holy guy or the Japanese guy or whatever.
[04:24:06] Like that's not a thing.
[04:24:07] No one's like, Oh, that's racial or nothing.
[04:24:09] There's no racial sensitivity in Hawaii cause everybody's something.
[04:24:15] Um, so I get it.
[04:24:19] But so I get that, that kind of like, where if that's funny that they called pink Mac
[04:24:24] because he's, because like I said, no, he's a black guy.
[04:24:28] I'm telling you, bro.
[04:24:29] He didn't, he did not look black.
[04:24:31] You know, he might've had a black mom, but he didn't look black.
[04:24:34] And he's from the island.
[04:24:36] So he seemed like a howly guy that just, you know, he had kind of freckles.
[04:24:42] Hit soul.
[04:24:43] Yeah.
[04:24:44] Yeah.
[04:24:45] Soul is a soul man.
[04:24:46] But that's a thing too though.
[04:24:47] If you're like, if you're hoppa like that and you're half black and you just pull the
[04:24:50] white side, a lot of times you wind up with freckles.
[04:24:53] Oh yeah.
[04:24:54] There's this guy, one of my friends from college, Gerald Lacey white guy, howly guy, half black.
[04:24:59] His older brother's like dark skin.
[04:25:01] He's like a white dude.
[04:25:02] He didn't talk like white, he's from Crenshaw, but to look at him, you're like, and he had
[04:25:07] freckles.
[04:25:08] They call him, I think my dad, he's always say this, call us red bone when you're real,
[04:25:14] real light skin black person, red bone for Elra.
[04:25:17] Um, so also a case for the black thing and white thing.
[04:25:21] So my brother Jade's nickname when he was young was snake.
[04:25:25] Right.
[04:25:26] And there's a guy in the team.
[04:25:27] So you know, I don't, I think he's still in.
[04:25:29] So I don't say his name, but his name is snake too, cause he has a lisp and he's a twin too,
[04:25:34] by the way.
[04:25:35] But so when we moved here, uh, so Jeremy, my friend Jeremy, he'd always tease Jade,
[04:25:40] call him snake cause that's his little nickname from it.
[04:25:42] You know, when you're a little kid, you come to tease him.
[04:25:46] So when we moved here, we met snake.
[04:25:48] He's a white guy blonde hair blue eye dude.
[04:25:51] So but there's Jade was black, half black.
[04:25:55] Then there's snake who's white.
[04:25:57] So Jade was black snake.
[04:25:59] This guy was white snake.
[04:26:01] Same exact thing.
[04:26:02] So I understood exactly what he was.
[04:26:03] This guy's black mac.
[04:26:04] This guy's pink.
[04:26:05] That's another level.
[04:26:06] It was kind of funny.
[04:26:07] So I dug it.
[04:26:08] I mean, I understood.
[04:26:09] Yeah.
[04:26:10] Yeah.
[04:26:11] I mean, it was, it wasn't like I was surprised.
[04:26:12] He's like, oh, he's black.
[04:26:13] I was like, okay.
[04:26:14] Well, yeah.
[04:26:15] Obviously.
[04:26:16] But it could have also been like some random story about, you know, we called him black
[04:26:20] mac because he, you know, he got gunpowder on the blah, blah, blah.
[04:26:24] You know, just whatever.
[04:26:25] But, but it's a good nickname.
[04:26:26] So I figured we had to get to the bottom of that one.
[04:26:30] But anyways, what an awesome opportunity to hear from a guy that's been through all kinds
[04:26:35] of stuff and, and is still out there trying to learn.
[04:26:39] So stay inactive.
[04:26:40] That's for sure.
[04:26:41] Yeah.
[04:26:42] Yeah.
[04:26:43] For sure.
[04:26:44] Yeah.
[04:26:45] He's like saying, oh yeah, my shoulders like jam.
[04:26:46] But when you look at a 75 years old, when you look at me like, bro, this guy's like,
[04:26:50] he looks, how old does he, how does he look?
[04:26:53] If he said he was sick, if he said it was 55, I wouldn't be like, oh, I'd be okay.
[04:26:59] Cool.
[04:27:00] 55.
[04:27:01] You know, you look like you're aging a little bit.
[04:27:02] Yeah.
[04:27:03] Yeah.
[04:27:04] You look like you've been rode pretty hard, but at 55, you're still doing pretty good.
[04:27:06] No, I would say.
[04:27:07] But then he's like, no, I'm 75.
[04:27:08] No, I would look at his body and be like, oh, you're 55.
[04:27:11] Dang, you're still getting after it.
[04:27:12] Yeah.
[04:27:13] Yeah.
[04:27:14] For sure.
[04:27:15] Obviously.
[04:27:16] For sure.
[04:27:17] That's literally what he looks like.
[04:27:18] Yeah.
[04:27:19] Impressive.
[04:27:20] Hey, it pays, man.
[04:27:21] Stay active.
[04:27:22] You know, stay in the game.
[04:27:23] You know what I'm saying?
[04:27:24] Yeah.
[04:27:25] You're not like taking it for granted.
[04:27:26] Yeah.
[04:27:27] Yeah.
[04:27:28] You know, when mentally you stay in the game, who is one of the, I think this guy, Tom,
[04:27:33] he's a wrestler here.
[04:27:35] He trains here.
[04:27:36] He used to, anyway, he said something really important where he was like, yeah, my dad,
[04:27:39] he would like, he said there was something along the lines of, uh, don't give yourself
[04:27:45] like the excuse of age to start going less hard or whatever.
[04:27:48] Hey, look, if you can't go hard, you can't go hard.
[04:27:50] Yeah.
[04:27:51] If you're max or whatever and you can't get it, then okay, you can't get it.
[04:27:55] But don't be like, Hey, you know, I'm 70 now or probably a lot of time it starts younger.
[04:28:00] So Hey, I'm 40 now.
[04:28:02] So I'm going to, instead of getting this hard set of 10 with, you know, 100 pounds or whatever,
[04:28:09] dumbbells, I'm going to do like 80s.
[04:28:13] Seems like just because I'm getting older now, kind of a thing.
[04:28:16] And look, I'm not saying go crazy and be dangerous.
[04:28:18] I'm not saying that.
[04:28:19] I'm not saying that I'm going to get a mindset of like, Hey, I'm going to cut, I'm going
[04:28:22] to cut myself some slack because I'm getting older.
[04:28:25] Just in general is not that good of an idea where it seems like, like he wasn't, you know,
[04:28:31] Gil like didn't do that.
[04:28:33] No, he's like straight.
[04:28:34] Yeah.
[04:28:35] Oh yeah.
[04:28:36] No slack.
[04:28:37] He's like 75.
[04:28:38] He's like, you know, I'm really looking forward to like, you know, really developing and,
[04:28:39] you know, like, most people 75, bro, that's like, you know, you can just tell by them
[04:28:49] that he has that mindset, you know, and it shows.
[04:28:51] Right.
[04:28:52] Awesome.
[04:28:53] Well, speaking of staying in the game, you got to stay in the game, get yourself some
[04:28:57] jockel fuel to stay in the game, get yourself some joint warfare.
[04:29:01] That's the thing that's going to keep you in the game.
[04:29:02] Well, let me rephrase that.
[04:29:03] That's the thing that's going to knock you out of the game is when the joints break down.
[04:29:07] When the joints break down, we break down.
[04:29:10] The machine breaks down.
[04:29:12] So you got to be careful of that one.
[04:29:16] You can get it there, you can get it at Wawa.
[04:29:21] You can get vitamin shop.
[04:29:22] You can get everything at a vitamin shop.
[04:29:23] You can get the military commissaries, Hanifords, dash stores up in Maryland, Wake Fern and
[04:29:29] shop right, Circle K in Florida, H E B in Tejas.
[04:29:34] Murphy's down the Southeast and Meyer in the Midwest.
[04:29:37] That's where you can get this fuel for you.
[04:29:41] That's good for you.
[04:29:42] That's the key component.
[04:29:44] So there you go.
[04:29:46] Also, wrestling, he was coaching wrestling for four years.
[04:29:50] That's going to keep you in the game.
[04:29:51] Jiu-Jitsu is going to keep you in the game.
[04:29:54] So you should train Jiu-Jitsu.
[04:29:55] When you train Jiu-Jitsu, you're going to need some gear to train Jiu-Jitsu and you're
[04:29:58] going to need a gear, rash guards, shorts, originUSA.com.
[04:30:04] OriginUSA.com.
[04:30:05] Go there, get whatever you need.
[04:30:07] Get hunt gear, get jeans.
[04:30:11] We got to talk about the Delta 68.
[04:30:13] The funny thing.
[04:30:14] So here's the thing.
[04:30:15] We didn't wear those because they were, he said there's no operational purpose.
[04:30:21] And I was like, oh, just to be cool.
[04:30:22] It wasn't even to be cool there.
[04:30:24] It was to be cool back in America.
[04:30:26] Right.
[04:30:27] Now, I'm going to say this.
[04:30:29] I'm going to make this statement.
[04:30:32] If they would have had Delta 68s that we make, they would have preferred to wear those 100%
[04:30:39] because they're light.
[04:30:41] They got a little bit of stretch.
[04:30:43] Some of the fatigue don't stretch, like fatigue jungle camis, they don't stretch at all.
[04:30:48] Delta 68s got that little bit of give you a little leeway.
[04:30:51] It's not even a little, it's all the leeway that you need to move.
[04:30:54] You want to do a squat, you can do it.
[04:30:55] You want to do a front kick, you can do it.
[04:30:58] So the Delta 68s re-engineered.
[04:31:02] If we could get time travel, we go back in time and just drop off SEAL Team 1, SEAL Team
[04:31:07] 2, they're out there in the Delta.
[04:31:09] Give them some Delta 68s.
[04:31:11] Here you go, boys.
[04:31:13] So let freedom ride.
[04:31:15] Wait, so just to clarify, and this was one of the cooler things that I've heard too.
[04:31:22] One of many.
[04:31:23] Small, but very cool.
[04:31:24] So he was saying, you wear them in combat just so they're almost like got their street
[04:31:30] cred when you come back, where it's like these jeans are the ones that I wore.
[04:31:34] It's not like you can wear your helmet or your night vision goggles.
[04:31:38] I'm just saying, and be like, yeah, these are the ones that are probably why you're
[04:31:40] going to wear that, but jeans you can't.
[04:31:41] Have you seen pictures with guys that are carrying flags rolled up on their gear?
[04:31:45] They'll carry an American flag on their gear, like a full American flag.
[04:31:49] It's the same kind of thing.
[04:31:50] It's like, hey, this has been on ops with me.
[04:31:53] I have the little American flag on my body armor.
[04:31:57] That's my favorite flag, little American flag that went out on ops with me.
[04:32:02] That's what it did.
[04:32:03] So let me ask you this, and maybe I'm out of touch, but so you know how they would wear
[04:32:07] jeans.
[04:32:09] Is that even possible now?
[04:32:10] Yeah, you could ever go on like a, oh, for real?
[04:32:13] Yeah.
[04:32:14] You can wear Delta 68s all day.
[04:32:15] Oh, damn.
[04:32:16] Like on a real world op mission, whatever.
[04:32:19] Damn.
[04:32:20] Okay.
[04:32:21] I mean, sometimes you wear civilian clothes on missions.
[04:32:22] I've done it.
[04:32:23] You know, you're going out.
[04:32:25] Low visibility operations.
[04:32:26] You know what I'm saying?
[04:32:28] Yeah.
[04:32:29] Yeah.
[04:32:30] And if you really, I mean, if you really wanted to, you could wear them.
[04:32:32] In the SEAL teams, you can get away with a lot.
[04:32:34] Now, look, if you're in Ramadi and you start mixing match and uniforms in 2006 and somebody
[04:32:39] sees you and you don't look like an American, that's not a good call.
[04:32:43] You want to look like an American soldier or Marine 100%.
[04:32:48] So yeah, there you go.
[04:32:50] All that stuff.
[04:32:51] Origin USA made in America from the dirt to the shirt.
[04:32:55] That's what we're doing.
[04:32:56] OriginUSA.com.
[04:32:57] Get it.
[04:32:58] Also, Jocko's Store.
[04:32:59] It's Jocko's Store.
[04:33:00] Go to JockoStore.com.
[04:33:01] Just link with your shirts, hats, hoodies, some new stuff.
[04:33:09] That shirt locker, which is a new shirt every month.
[04:33:11] A lot of people like this one for real.
[04:33:14] They really like this one.
[04:33:16] You know, little bit different designs, but you get a new shirt every month.
[04:33:19] So yeah, you can subscribe on there too for that as well.
[04:33:23] JockoStore.com.
[04:33:24] Subscribe to that.
[04:33:25] Subscribe to the podcast.
[04:33:26] Subscribe to the Jocko Underground.
[04:33:27] Get ready.
[04:33:28] Record a couple of those right now.
[04:33:30] Give some people some backside information about the world.
[04:33:33] Answer questions.
[04:33:34] So JockoUnderground.com, if you want to get involved with that.
[04:33:37] We got the YouTube channels.
[04:33:38] We got psychological warfare, flip side canvas, Dakota Meyer.
[04:33:41] I've written a bunch of books.
[04:33:42] Hey, the beginning today, I read from by water beneath the walls.
[04:33:46] I was just at the SEAL Team 1 reunion.
[04:33:49] I'm with guys.
[04:33:50] I'm with plank owners, meaning I'm with guys at the SEAL Team 1 reunion that were the first
[04:33:56] guys.
[04:33:57] They were there when SEAL Team 1 started.
[04:33:59] They were there.
[04:34:01] And these Vietnam guys were, we were talking about this book and guys were like, oh, there's
[04:34:05] so much information that I didn't even know.
[04:34:07] That started SEAL Team 1.
[04:34:09] We're like, I learned.
[04:34:10] So Ben Milligan, by water beneath the walls.
[04:34:15] Get it.
[04:34:16] It's just an unbelievable book.
[04:34:17] And then, of course, Only Cry for the Living by Holly McKay.
[04:34:21] That's another book about war.
[04:34:23] Get you some insight into human nature.
[04:34:26] And then of course, I've written a bunch of books.
[04:34:28] So you can get some of those books as well.
[04:34:31] Ashland Front.
[04:34:34] Leadership Consultancy.
[04:34:35] We solve problems through leadership.
[04:34:36] So if you want to help your company, your business, your team, go to Ashlandfront.com.
[04:34:41] If you want to come to one of our live events, check out the events that we have.
[04:34:45] Also, we have the Academy where we teach leadership online.
[04:34:49] We got online recorded courses.
[04:34:50] We do live training on there, extremownership.com.
[04:34:53] If you want to help out service members, active and retired, you want to help out their families,
[04:34:58] Gold Star families.
[04:34:59] Check out Mark Lee's mom, Mama Lee.
[04:35:01] She's got that charity organization.
[04:35:02] You heard about what it did for Gil today.
[04:35:04] So get involved in that at americasmightywarriors.org.
[04:35:11] And then of course, we have Drago's organization, which is navysealsfund.org.
[04:35:17] And then heroesandhorses.org.
[04:35:20] So those are some good charities if you want to help the people that help us.
[04:35:27] And also, if you want to hang out with Echo and I on Twitter, on the gram, on Facebook,
[04:35:35] Twitter's reignited.
[04:35:36] There's lots of people jumping on Twitter right now.
[04:35:38] Some people are leaving.
[04:35:39] I don't know what's happening.
[04:35:40] I've been there.
[04:35:41] I'm still there.
[04:35:42] We'll see where it goes.
[04:35:44] But no matter where you are on the social media world, watch out for that algorithm because
[04:35:47] it'll sneak up and grab you by the trope.
[04:35:49] And you're not gonna like that.
[04:35:53] So that's that.
[04:35:56] One more.
[04:35:57] Thank you to Gil Espinoza for joining us today.
[04:36:00] Thank you, Gil, for your life of service to the navy, to the teams, and to the fire department.
[04:36:07] We all thank you for that.
[04:36:09] And thanks to all the firefighters out there.
[04:36:12] All the firefighters out there on call, keeping us safe, ready to sacrifice your safety, ready
[04:36:18] to sacrifice your life for us and our families.
[04:36:21] Thank you to all the firefighters out there.
[04:36:23] And the same goes to our EMTs, paramedics, and of course, police, law enforcement, dispatchers,
[04:36:29] correctional officers, board of patrol, secret service, all first responders.
[04:36:32] Thank you for keeping us safe on the home front and by with certainty.
[04:36:41] Thank you to the folks in military uniform who go out protect freedom and liberty around
[04:36:47] the world.
[04:36:48] We are eternally grateful for the protection that you provide us and everyone else out
[04:36:53] there.
[04:36:54] Like Gil learned during basic seal training all those years ago.
[04:37:02] You can't change the water temperature of the ocean.
[04:37:06] It's going to be what it's going to be.
[04:37:09] So don't complain.
[04:37:10] Don't whine.
[04:37:11] Don't grumble.
[04:37:13] Instead, just go and get after it.
[04:37:18] And until next time, this is Echo and Jaco out.