Jocko Podcast 352: Fixing Your Mind, & Mental Health. Dr. Karlyn Pleasants, Megan Harrison

2022-09-22T23:14:24Z

Underground Premium Content: https://www.jockounderground.com/subscribe Join the conversation on Twitter/Instagram: @jockowillink @echocharles Dr. Karlyn Pleasants is a clinical Psychologist who specializes in adult and adolescent psychotherapy. She is also the Chief Clinical Advisor and a managing partner at Anew Treatment Center, Scottsdale AZ. Megan Harrison holds a master's degree in Marriage and Family Therapy with experience in transgenerational trauma and mental illness.

AI summary of episode

I actually was on a podcast a couple of weeks ago where we were talking about how people, like remember when we were able, like going to the grocery store, like, you know, everyone's like head down and you're like not looking at anybody and don't get too close to a car. And then like you have said a couple times, Megan, the reparative experiences, like, you know, how many times did you think, like I have a client who for the longest time, she would show up like 15, 20 minutes early to her session because she had this idea that what if she's not out there at the time of our session and I forget we had a session and I leave, which first of all, it would never, ever happen in a million years ever. So this is where in terms of therapy and treatment comes in as helping people learn how to regulate their body and like calm some of that agitation down and then do all the cognitive work of helping like, reality check, like right, kind of sort through some of these big extreme thoughts that I have to be like, are they really that realistic? It was like, I like to call it like a, I'm very much all about like small business ownership and like what that means for our economy and such. But what we do have control over is sort of our own reaction to when someone is sharing something with us that appears upsetting, do we wanna shut it down and kind of they should be fine and get moved past it because that creates an experience for them or can we kind of tolerate whatever feelings are coming up for us when we see someone who's struggling or with working through something that I have no idea how to fix or how to respond to, but can I sit with them for enough time to create an experience for them that lets them know that like, if something's coming up for me again or if I need to work through this, it's safe to come to this person or this environment is safe enough to be able to share what's going on for me because if it's not and that person goes inside, then when we look at more severe things like suicide or very chronic psychiatric disorders, that becomes much more debilitating in a way that can cause someone their life. Like you said, like, well, what a mom who is gonna say something like, like, well, why are you doing that? Well, and the persons, you know what they're, they're out their world outside of social media looks like their family, how much they can, you know, cross-reference the things that they're seeing on there with like a parent who's telling them like, let's think about that, let's walk that through. And I think also seeing, especially for people who are, seemed like in that age range, like maybe middle school going into high school, like right somewhere in there where a lot of social things are happening. So sometimes finding an origin that then explains the symptoms, then you treat the origin, the issue over here versus the symptoms, kind of like the analogy I've used a million times, even with clients, is if you come in with like a severe case of pneumonia and the only thing we're doing is giving you some cough syrup to help your cough, like that's gonna help a little bit. It's usually more like I act, I have these experiences, I walk through something difficult, my symptoms got really activated when I was gonna go try to learn how to take the bus, or do the trolley, but you know what, like, I had someone with me, and I was able to do it, and it was like okay, and it didn't stay that way forever. And so, you know, coming from a place of, if my approach is tough love in terms of what you're describing and like what you're being honest and true to yourself, and can also add that other part of like, there's a part of me that's sort of fearful that if I have tough love on you, that's like, this is gonna go kind of sideways for you. Because this is all she was presenting with is like, I know, like it's almost like, I know, this is not good for me, I just don't really know what to do about it. Like does it, I don't go out much to, hey, I'm not gonna go, I'm not gonna go to the grocery store, to I'm gonna have people drop my food at the end of the hallway, to I'm just gonna sit in here and like not eat. And it's all like, and if you don't know, you don't know, you know, so it's like just so slippery like that. Like I can tell, like and I can, because I have rapport, I always joke, like you've heard me say this in supervision, like I'm sometimes surprised myself with how much I can get away with saying. So she tells me this event, which was really like, at a party one night, like all the cousins and aunts and uncles, the kids decided to like, play a joke and like, skinny dip. I mean, I don't know too much to speak to that part, but what I will say about like Anu and what Humblechia had been for a very long time is it's a very unique model of care that allows for a full continuum of care where people can have like a residential setting sort of right out of the hospital for a long-term period of time and then fluidly move through transitional residential for a person to be able to kind of integrate what they need. So now like she's working, she's got kids, she's just got back from like, Bali or something, I don't know, she went with her husband, like her life is great. You know, my roommate tells me like, hey, you know, room like stinks, can you like clean this up? So it's like harder to, you know, after a while, it's like maybe if I'm behaving in a certain way, it's like certain symptoms have to kind of arrive or arise along with the feeling. So with personality disorders, it's not, it's more like a part of your, like I can be a shy person, which means I'm probably gonna be shy like across the board, right, not just in one or two situations. And I think like we said before, there's, people can have like kind of traits and like the leanings and inclinations. And when you start looking at that, like the most horrifying thing, like anorexia, where the person is so clearly malnutritioned and so clearly like 100% of people in the world would say you need to eat more. So, but like, you know, sometimes he would talk about that, like funny, he would be like, oh my God, Karlyn, remember last week when I told you I thought I was Ram Dass? And that's one thing versus it being at a, like a clinic clinically significant level where you're like your life, like you're having a hard time living your life. The parents got a call from the police, the local police in their son's town, that they found him like running around outside, like half naked, like kind of crazy, screaming and doing weird things. And it sort of seems cliche, but at the time it was everything for me because I didn't, you know, the friends that I had at the time and I had, you know, been living with friends at a very young age and such, like we weren't really going to a lot of places, jail, I lost a lot of friends to, you know, death, you know, suicide, overdoses. And I kind of tell them the same thing, you know, before we get in here, I'm like, you know, I feel like, you know, I'm fine. Like, they all went into the pool house, like, stripped off their clothes and like, ran into the pool and made a big joke and everyone got in trouble because the parents were there and this kind of thing. So you can see where like the early stuff shaped this, but a lot of our work was, it wasn't just like saying, hey, we've had 72 sessions and I've been here every time, like, isn't that enough? Like it's actually this person, while they might appear like it doesn't matter to them, they're actually so sensitive and vulnerable that they've built up so many defenses in their psyche to not allow for any sort of feedback to crack through an idea of like, oh, in fact, I could potentially fail. Your example of like, like hey, that's like the fourth time you went to the bathroom, the last half an hour, right? Imagine like you were saying, if you hadn't said that, like what that person would have done in their head and how that would have, so I think one of the advice, like it's both is, say something, say something, call it out, ask a question. Well, I mean, a lot of it has to do with, well, I know we were talking about this before recording that when somebody is that kind of agitated and in distress, the front part of your brain, the prefrontal cortex, which is the part we use for like weighing pros and cons and anticipating outcomes and kind of making decisions and thinking things through is almost like not available. I mean, I think when you, you talk about this from like a clinical where you're ending up in treatment, it, it, it moves into a place where you have, you lose sight of, I don't know if empathy is the right word or like my impact on other people. Like you said earlier, people like, do they like, they don't really want to be there. So now, like, yeah, my clients who are 2021, 22, but you're talking to them and you're like, wow, you really sound like 16 or 17 years old right now. It just, it's like her experience in the world with other people is always through this lens of like, do you like me? And so we help the family really create some structures around like sort of some boundaries in a way of like, I'm here to support you and I'm gonna help you on this journey within the context of this realm that's gonna be helpful for you. So like what you were saying, Megan, is a lot of our clients come in from a hospital or like could have been in one, maybe they've been maintained at home, but like not well.

Most common words

Episode transcript

[00:00:00] This is Jocko podcast number 352 with me, Jocko willing.
[00:00:06] I feel certain I am going mad again.
[00:00:10] I feel we can't go through another of those terrible times.
[00:00:15] I shan't recover this time.
[00:00:17] I begin to hear voices and I can't concentrate.
[00:00:20] So I am doing what seems the best thing to do.
[00:00:25] You have given me the greatest possible happiness.
[00:00:28] You have been in every way all that anyone could be.
[00:00:34] I don't think two people could have been happier
[00:00:36] till this terrible disease came.
[00:00:40] I can't fight any longer.
[00:00:43] I know that I am spoiling your life
[00:00:45] that without me you could work.
[00:00:49] And you will, I know.
[00:00:53] You see, I can't even write this properly.
[00:00:55] I can't read.
[00:00:57] What I wanna say is that I owe all the happiness
[00:00:59] of my life to you.
[00:01:01] You've been entirely patient with me and incredibly good.
[00:01:05] I wanna say that everybody knows it.
[00:01:11] If anybody could have saved me, it would have been you.
[00:01:14] Everything has gone from me, but the certainty
[00:01:17] of your goodness.
[00:01:18] I can't go on spoiling your life any longer.
[00:01:26] And that right there is the final work
[00:01:29] of the English writer, Virginia Woolf.
[00:01:32] It was a suicide note that she left to her husband, Leonard.
[00:01:36] Virginia Woolf was born into an affluent family.
[00:01:41] She was well cared for as a child.
[00:01:43] She was homeschooled in English and Victorian literature
[00:01:47] from a young age.
[00:01:48] She attended the ladies department of Kings College
[00:01:51] in London.
[00:01:51] She was successful by any measure.
[00:01:58] And she wrote a bunch of successful novels.
[00:02:02] She authored more than 500 essays and reviews.
[00:02:06] She had friends and family
[00:02:07] and a long seemingly happy marriage.
[00:02:12] And yet throughout her life,
[00:02:14] even with all those opportunities and advantages
[00:02:17] and benefits and privilege that she had,
[00:02:19] she suffered from mental health issues.
[00:02:23] She had mood swings and depression and manic excitement
[00:02:27] and psychotic episodes.
[00:02:31] And she attempted suicide twice before she was successful
[00:02:36] in killing herself in 1941.
[00:02:39] So how does that happen?
[00:02:45] What is going on there?
[00:02:47] And psychiatrists today, they hypothesized
[00:02:50] that she had a mental health problem,
[00:02:53] in particular likely bipolar disorder,
[00:02:57] which used to be called manic depression.
[00:03:00] And we've talked about mental health on this podcast.
[00:03:03] We've talked about mental health issues facing veterans.
[00:03:06] We've covered some tragic, horrible suicides,
[00:03:14] including Chad Wilkinson,
[00:03:18] Joe Price, Charles White,
[00:03:21] Wittlesley, Lewis Polar Jr.
[00:03:25] We've also talked about non-military suicides.
[00:03:28] We talked about Iris Chang,
[00:03:31] Iris Chang, who was the author of the bestselling book,
[00:03:34] New York Times bestselling book,
[00:03:36] The Rape of Nanking.
[00:03:38] And she had a nervous breakdown in August of 2004
[00:03:42] and was placed on a wide variety of prescription medication.
[00:03:48] But over time, the medications only seemed
[00:03:50] to amplify her issues and she was diagnosed
[00:03:52] with reactive psychosis and put on even more medication.
[00:04:00] And on November 8th, 2004,
[00:04:02] she wrote, when you believe you have a future,
[00:04:06] you think in terms of generations and years,
[00:04:08] when you do not, you just live by the day,
[00:04:12] but by the minute.
[00:04:15] It's far better that you remember me as I was
[00:04:18] in my heyday as a bestselling author.
[00:04:22] Each breath is becoming difficult for me to take.
[00:04:25] The anxiety can be compared to drowning in an open sea.
[00:04:28] I know my actions, I know that my actions will transfer
[00:04:33] some of this pain to others, indeed to those
[00:04:36] who love me the most.
[00:04:39] Please forgive me.
[00:04:43] And the next day, November 9th, 2004,
[00:04:46] she killed herself with a pistol.
[00:04:51] So these are topics that we've certainly addressed.
[00:04:54] We've talked about them initially,
[00:04:56] really with Jordan Peterson.
[00:04:58] And focused on them in the most recent podcast,
[00:05:03] the last podcast we did, 251 with Marcus and Amber Capone.
[00:05:07] But it's an area that I still lack,
[00:05:12] even basic understanding of what mental health disorders
[00:05:16] are, where they come from, what we can do to prevent them
[00:05:18] or overcome them in some way.
[00:05:21] Luckily today, we have some experts from that field.
[00:05:25] Dr. Carlin Pleasance and Megan Harrison.
[00:05:29] Dr. Pleasance is a clinical psychologist
[00:05:31] who specializes in adult and adolescent psychotherapy.
[00:05:36] She's also the chief clinical advisor
[00:05:39] and a managing partner at a new treatment center
[00:05:43] in Scottsdale, Arizona.
[00:05:44] And Megan Harrison holds a master's degree
[00:05:47] in marriage and family therapy,
[00:05:50] with significant experience working with families
[00:05:52] affected by transgenerational trauma and mental illness.
[00:05:57] And Megan is the CEO and managing partner
[00:06:00] at a new treatment center in Scottsdale.
[00:06:04] So thank you both for joining us.
[00:06:09] Thanks for having us.
[00:06:10] Yes, thank you for having us.
[00:06:11] Yeah, it's great to meet you.
[00:06:13] You know, I mentioned that sort of my introduction
[00:06:15] to psychology, I would say was having
[00:06:20] Dr. Jordan Peterson on this podcast.
[00:06:21] And that's when I realized,
[00:06:25] I just didn't understand at all what was going on
[00:06:29] and what it meant to have a mental health issue.
[00:06:32] And I realized when he was on the podcast,
[00:06:35] as he was talking through some of the problems
[00:06:37] that people have, I realized that the mind,
[00:06:41] well, this is my simple caveman way of translating
[00:06:44] what he was saying, was that your mind is like a car.
[00:06:48] And sometimes the car breaks down
[00:06:50] or sometimes there's, you know, you blow a gasket
[00:06:53] or your oil is low.
[00:06:55] And when that happens, you take it into a mechanic.
[00:06:59] And the mechanic diagnosis what the problem is,
[00:07:01] oh, you blew a gasket, here's what we need to do to fix it.
[00:07:06] And so I realized that in many ways,
[00:07:10] the mind can do that too.
[00:07:11] You can blow up a gasket and there's people,
[00:07:14] psychologists or therapists,
[00:07:16] that can diagnose what the problem is
[00:07:19] and have methodologies and protocols
[00:07:22] to get those things fixed.
[00:07:27] So I, again, in my caveman brain,
[00:07:30] realized that psychologists and therapists
[00:07:35] are like mind mechanics that have seen,
[00:07:37] that's what triggered it for me,
[00:07:39] that's what triggered that thought,
[00:07:40] was he was telling me about,
[00:07:42] oh, I'd see this case, this type of case.
[00:07:44] You know, he'd see it again and he'd see it again
[00:07:46] and he'd say, again, and you develop a protocol
[00:07:47] on how to deal with it.
[00:07:48] Just like, oh, your car's making this noise,
[00:07:51] oh, okay, here's what the problem is.
[00:07:53] And you see that over and over again,
[00:07:54] you develop a protocol.
[00:07:56] So you too, welcome, and you too, are mind mechanics,
[00:08:01] as far as I can tell.
[00:08:03] Let's talk about how you guys got here,
[00:08:05] just a little bit of background
[00:08:07] just so we get familiar with you.
[00:08:08] So let's start with you.
[00:08:09] Karlyn, where'd you grow up?
[00:08:13] How'd you end up in this scenario
[00:08:14] that you're in sitting here right now?
[00:08:15] Okay, let's see, well, I grew up in the Bay Area, California.
[00:08:20] And one of the things I think is really funny
[00:08:23] about my story is I didn't understand how I got here
[00:08:27] until much, much later, looking back
[00:08:30] and trying to figure it out.
[00:08:32] For a very long time, I was one of those folks
[00:08:36] when people would say, so why did you go into psychology?
[00:08:39] Why did you become a psychologist?
[00:08:40] I would say things like, oh, I just like helping people.
[00:08:43] I'm a good listener.
[00:08:44] I'm interested in how the mind works,
[00:08:48] which are true things, but really going back
[00:08:53] and taking a more in-depth look at my journey,
[00:08:58] it started when I was a kid.
[00:09:00] I had some pretty serious physical limitations
[00:09:04] and physical illnesses that kept me out of school
[00:09:08] for a long time.
[00:09:09] I did not take a single PE class,
[00:09:12] my entire scholastic career.
[00:09:14] Didn't get to participate the same way as other kids did.
[00:09:18] Missed a lot of things, was absent a lot of the time.
[00:09:21] And I remember being really young and thinking,
[00:09:25] like, is this it?
[00:09:26] Like, is this it?
[00:09:27] Can there be some other way of being,
[00:09:32] some other way of living?
[00:09:33] Cause it was lonely.
[00:09:35] And as a kid, the sense of feeling different,
[00:09:38] like I don't really belong.
[00:09:39] How old were you when these health issues started?
[00:09:41] Was this like everything?
[00:09:42] I was diagnosed when I was two.
[00:09:44] Two with like really severe respiratory and lung problems.
[00:09:49] And back then, I mean, we're talking early 70s, right?
[00:09:52] Like treatment was not as it is now.
[00:09:54] People didn't understand.
[00:09:56] I mean, my mom talks about how I was sick as an infant,
[00:10:01] and it took two years for a doctor to say,
[00:10:04] oh, I think I know what she has.
[00:10:07] Talk about a mechanic, right?
[00:10:08] She's taken me lots of mechanics over the years.
[00:10:13] And treatments weren't as advanced as they are now.
[00:10:16] So growing up all through elementary school,
[00:10:19] junior high, high school, feeling very separate
[00:10:22] and different and not included.
[00:10:25] And knowing that people thought I was kind of weird.
[00:10:28] How come you don't come to all the things?
[00:10:30] How come you don't take PE?
[00:10:31] How come you sit in recess when we all go outside?
[00:10:34] Right, which on one hand doesn't sound,
[00:10:36] I mean, whatever, it's the plight of a kid.
[00:10:39] But when I really look back and think about it,
[00:10:41] it was that sense of feeling alone
[00:10:43] and really misunderstood and not included in things.
[00:10:50] And wondering, like there's gotta be more.
[00:10:53] Like this can't be it.
[00:10:54] This just cannot be it for me, for people.
[00:10:57] So early on, I remember thinking when I grow up,
[00:11:02] like I wanna be a doctor.
[00:11:03] I wanna be somebody who helps,
[00:11:05] basically helps people like me.
[00:11:07] Again, in a young brain thinking,
[00:11:09] well, if I feel like this,
[00:11:10] probably everybody feels like this.
[00:11:11] And I don't want people to feel like this.
[00:11:13] So maybe I'll help kids or I'll help people
[00:11:15] with respiratory problems
[00:11:18] or I'll help people with medical illnesses.
[00:11:21] And it just kind of developed that way.
[00:11:23] This idea of wanting to, I don't know,
[00:11:25] in some way help ease the suffering
[00:11:29] that other people experience
[00:11:31] and make sense of what was going on.
[00:11:35] Now again, I don't remember it like this at the time.
[00:11:38] In my mind, I just wanted to help people.
[00:11:40] So did you apply yourself at school?
[00:11:42] Were you like, I need to get straight A's
[00:11:43] so I can be a doctor?
[00:11:44] I was like, yeah.
[00:11:45] So over a two, I mean, for what I couldn't do over here,
[00:11:49] I made up for it, way over here.
[00:11:50] So lots of good grades, lots of degrees,
[00:11:53] lots of academic awards.
[00:11:55] Did you go to school with the intent of becoming a doctor?
[00:11:58] At what point did you think psychology was the place to go?
[00:12:01] For a while, I was gonna,
[00:12:02] I wanted to go into medical, medical doctor.
[00:12:04] And then when I learned that you have to take a class
[00:12:07] called anatomy and look at bodies,
[00:12:10] I thought, yeah, this might not be for me.
[00:12:13] Like you're squeamish?
[00:12:14] This is totally squeamish.
[00:12:15] So I'm like, yeah, I don't know
[00:12:16] if that's then gonna work out for me very well
[00:12:18] to go that direction.
[00:12:21] But also again, the insight of this came through hindsight
[00:12:26] is I was so curious about,
[00:12:29] really the mental part of it, right?
[00:12:31] The experience of feeling isolated and disconnected
[00:12:34] and how that left you feeling or me feeling lonely
[00:12:40] and depressed and kind of like wanting more, right?
[00:12:44] So I got a little bit more curious
[00:12:46] in the like psychological department
[00:12:48] of what happens for people who have an illness,
[00:12:50] what happens for people who feel separate
[00:12:55] and different from everybody else who are left out,
[00:12:58] who are bullied, like what happens psychologically?
[00:13:02] So I definitely made a turn along the way.
[00:13:04] And was that in college?
[00:13:06] I would say maybe high schoolish going into college.
[00:13:11] Just kind of a fascination with how the mind works.
[00:13:15] And in some ways, unlike going to a mechanic,
[00:13:21] a lot of the psychological experiences
[00:13:23] that a person might have in reaction or relation
[00:13:26] to all of these different events, you don't see them.
[00:13:29] Like, you know, we can go into a doctor
[00:13:32] and take a listen to your head and go,
[00:13:34] oh, I recognize that clicking, I know exactly what to do.
[00:13:37] There are these kind of invisible unseen experiences
[00:13:41] that make it a little bit more challenging
[00:13:44] to figure out or understand what exactly is going on.
[00:13:48] So that curiosity, I just remember high school,
[00:13:50] probably going into college, just curious,
[00:13:54] like how does this work?
[00:13:55] Like why do I feel this way?
[00:13:58] But this person I met also had an illness
[00:14:00] when she was young and she seems to be okay.
[00:14:04] Like why did I suffer?
[00:14:05] Or why was I okay over here?
[00:14:07] But this guy couldn't do grades, you know?
[00:14:10] So this kind of curiosity about how the mind influences
[00:14:15] the experiences.
[00:14:16] And I remember sitting in a,
[00:14:19] I was probably getting close to getting my first degree
[00:14:22] and in a kind of a pathology class,
[00:14:26] kind of a mental illness, a class on mental illness
[00:14:28] and the pathology of illness,
[00:14:30] the professor said, show of hands,
[00:14:32] how many in here believe that you're in here to help people?
[00:14:37] You just wanna do good in the world,
[00:14:39] the good student, me, me, along with most of the other class.
[00:14:43] And he's like, okay, how many of you in here
[00:14:45] think that you have chosen this field
[00:14:48] or chosen this part of the field
[00:14:51] because you've got your own stuff you might need to work out.
[00:14:56] And everyone's like, not me, not me, not a hand
[00:15:00] or maybe like half hand.
[00:15:03] And by the end of that class, it was the reverse.
[00:15:06] Everybody was like, yep, I've got my own stuff,
[00:15:08] I need to work out, that's partly why I'm here.
[00:15:11] All right, so that started the,
[00:15:14] I think the kind of budding awareness
[00:15:19] that this isn't just about, for me,
[00:15:21] it wasn't just about helping people
[00:15:23] and being a good listener,
[00:15:24] but it was about understanding myself
[00:15:27] and hopefully through the process,
[00:15:29] being able to take that experience and help other people,
[00:15:33] whether that's not feel so alone
[00:15:36] or understand that there are options available
[00:15:38] or that this isn't kind of the fate of your life
[00:15:43] because you have this illness or this experience.
[00:15:46] So yeah, I definitely have swung from here,
[00:15:49] like I'm just really altruistic all the way over here too.
[00:15:54] Life is hard sometimes, life is really hard.
[00:15:57] And when you factor in, like my experience growing up
[00:16:00] with an illness, also growing up in a family
[00:16:02] where there were a lot of issues
[00:16:04] and not just in my immediate family, but generational.
[00:16:07] I mean, you and I, Megan have talked about this of
[00:16:11] trauma and addiction and loss and wartime.
[00:16:15] Like you kind of inherit a little bit of that
[00:16:17] along the way.
[00:16:19] So my curiosity over time expanded
[00:16:24] beyond just my own experience,
[00:16:26] but how does this happen in families?
[00:16:28] How does this happen through generations?
[00:16:30] How do you find, we had a client we saw
[00:16:33] at the treatment center for a long time
[00:16:35] who had schizophrenia, two siblings,
[00:16:38] a sister who did not have schizophrenia,
[00:16:40] a brother who did.
[00:16:43] Parents were really, really lovely, great people,
[00:16:46] did not seem to have a lot of stuff going on,
[00:16:49] but the dad's brother, the dad had three brothers,
[00:16:52] he was one of four, all three of them had schizophrenia.
[00:16:55] So this idea, right, of like, okay, some of this
[00:16:58] is passing down through generations,
[00:17:00] not just at a genetic level,
[00:17:04] but what you're exposed to and what you're seeing
[00:17:07] and what you're experiencing and what you're witnessing.
[00:17:12] So again, for me, the curiosity and the interest
[00:17:16] was about how do these things happen?
[00:17:18] How do they go from here to here to here to here?
[00:17:22] And what can we do to shift that?
[00:17:24] So people aren't just kind of living out
[00:17:29] this emotional inheritance or this traumatic inheritance,
[00:17:33] depending on what was going on in the family.
[00:17:35] How do you break that chain?
[00:17:36] How do you do something different?
[00:17:37] How do you set your own life up to go
[00:17:41] in a different trajectory than maybe how it's been going?
[00:17:45] And then your kids and their kids and their kids.
[00:17:48] So.
[00:17:49] Yeah, it makes sense that if you were gonna get
[00:17:51] like a personal trainer, because you wanna get in shape,
[00:17:54] it would be kind of, if you saw that that personal trainer
[00:17:57] had gone through some sort of transition themselves,
[00:17:59] you go, okay, this person kind of knows what I've been through.
[00:18:02] So you kind of got that vibe,
[00:18:04] I can say vibe a lot, so you gotta forget about that.
[00:18:06] I do too, it's okay.
[00:18:08] You kind of have that vibe.
[00:18:09] So what degrees did you end up with?
[00:18:10] What did you end up with?
[00:18:12] You said you got like degree upon degree.
[00:18:14] Yeah, yeah.
[00:18:15] So I got a bachelor's degree in psychology,
[00:18:18] which unfortunately in our field nowadays,
[00:18:21] that doesn't mean a whole lot other than you went to school
[00:18:23] for a few years and learned a bunch of things
[00:18:25] about the brain.
[00:18:27] Got my master's in counseling also in California,
[00:18:31] and then got my doctorate in clinical psychology
[00:18:34] down here in San Diego.
[00:18:35] Got it.
[00:18:36] All right.
[00:18:38] Megan.
[00:18:39] Yes.
[00:18:39] Let's talk about you.
[00:18:40] Where'd you grow up?
[00:18:41] How'd you end up here?
[00:18:42] Sure, feels like a big question.
[00:18:45] I grew up in Southern Wisconsin,
[00:18:46] really small town, beautiful there.
[00:18:50] Not much to do in that area,
[00:18:51] you're probably fishing.
[00:18:53] Where'd your parents go?
[00:18:55] My dad owned a chain of grocery stores,
[00:18:59] and my mom worked just cleaning houses
[00:19:03] and working for my uncle's scrap metal business,
[00:19:06] whatever we could do.
[00:19:08] And my dad that I'm speaking to came later on in life
[00:19:10] as well with like the chain of grocery stores.
[00:19:12] So the first part of my life was just me and mom.
[00:19:15] And so she taught me definitely hard work,
[00:19:17] but there wasn't much to do where I grew up.
[00:19:19] You were bowling, curling, fishing, hunting,
[00:19:24] or going to the bar.
[00:19:24] That was about it.
[00:19:27] Curling.
[00:19:28] Curling just made the podcast.
[00:19:29] We're 352 podcasts deep, and we just got into curling.
[00:19:33] It's a big deal in Wisconsin, let me tell you.
[00:19:35] It's very cold for about eight months out of the year.
[00:19:38] So, yeah.
[00:19:40] I mean, my story, I was born into a family system
[00:19:44] that had definitely been impacted
[00:19:46] by just generations of trauma,
[00:19:49] abuse, addiction, mental health issues
[00:19:52] on the very severe end.
[00:19:54] And similar to what Karlin is saying,
[00:19:58] I don't know that like sitting here right now,
[00:20:00] like the only intentionality in that for me
[00:20:02] in coming into this therapy world was just this idea
[00:20:04] that through life, every step I took forward
[00:20:08] in terms of overcoming just brought me further
[00:20:12] into the life that I envisioned for myself.
[00:20:14] And that was sort of my intention in that way.
[00:20:16] But I knew growing up in that environment
[00:20:18] that there was no way I was gonna be able
[00:20:20] to do something different for myself
[00:20:23] or do something different for the family
[00:20:24] I wanted to have if I stayed there.
[00:20:26] And so from a very young age,
[00:20:27] I sort of started my path towards independence.
[00:20:30] I started working at a very young age.
[00:20:33] The military sort of came into my life as this idea
[00:20:36] like here's an opportunity to go somewhere,
[00:20:39] to do something.
[00:20:40] I actually was finishing some high school stuff
[00:20:43] at a community college and was watching
[00:20:48] the September 11th occurrences in 2001.
[00:20:51] And I just remember looking at the screen and being like,
[00:20:55] oh, this is what I'm gonna do.
[00:20:57] I had entertained the military for a period of time.
[00:20:59] And I had thought maybe this was my opportunity,
[00:21:01] but it was in that moment that I was like, okay,
[00:21:03] like this, I feel a sense of purpose,
[00:21:04] like drawn to something.
[00:21:05] And in the environment that I grew up in,
[00:21:06] I kind of always knew that I wanted something different
[00:21:10] for myself, but I lacked a lot of direction
[00:21:12] and people in my life to kind of help me guide
[00:21:14] in that way, education wasn't particularly valued
[00:21:17] or seen as like a possibility.
[00:21:19] And at that point in my life,
[00:21:20] I hadn't had enough experiences
[00:21:22] other than just like surviving in a lot of ways
[00:21:25] to see that as possible for myself,
[00:21:29] to see ready to like go to school and do that route.
[00:21:31] And so the military just felt like, like, okay,
[00:21:33] this is what I'm gonna go do.
[00:21:35] And there's like something really important
[00:21:36] that's happening, I need to go do it.
[00:21:37] And it was about a year later, August of 2002
[00:21:40] that I was on active duty and...
[00:21:42] And what'd you join?
[00:21:44] I joined the Navy.
[00:21:45] How'd you pick that?
[00:21:46] Being a Wisconsin.
[00:21:47] You know, it's really interesting.
[00:21:48] I think it was, it had to do with the recruiter at the time
[00:21:51] because I was definitely a youth that was getting,
[00:21:55] you know, some help from the community
[00:21:57] and different things.
[00:21:57] And at that time in the Midwest,
[00:21:58] you know, recruiters would come into those areas
[00:22:00] and introduce themselves and such.
[00:22:01] And so I just remember him as being somebody
[00:22:04] that I was like, okay, like he seems confident.
[00:22:07] Like, he carries himself,
[00:22:09] like this is like something I wanna be a part of.
[00:22:13] And it sort of seems cliche,
[00:22:14] but at the time it was everything for me
[00:22:16] because I didn't, you know, the friends that I had
[00:22:17] at the time and I had, you know, been living with friends
[00:22:20] at a very young age and such,
[00:22:21] like we weren't really going to a lot of places,
[00:22:23] jail, I lost a lot of friends to, you know, death,
[00:22:26] you know, suicide, overdoses.
[00:22:27] There was just a lot of that in my life.
[00:22:30] And so just being around somebody who just sort of
[00:22:35] represented like a possibly different future
[00:22:38] and like life was huge for me.
[00:22:39] It was like a role model mentor.
[00:22:42] And so I joined.
[00:22:45] What job did you sign up for?
[00:22:46] So I came in as a signalman.
[00:22:49] And that's what I went to A-School for,
[00:22:50] but I dates myself a little bit
[00:22:51] because it's already kind of like a dying rate at the time.
[00:22:54] So I went to A-School to be a signalman.
[00:22:55] And my first orders were actually to the USS Kitty Hawk
[00:22:59] and in Japan at the time.
[00:23:01] And I was like set to leave about a week later
[00:23:05] and my orders got canceled
[00:23:06] because there wasn't enough birthing for females at the time.
[00:23:08] And I was rerouted to ACB One in San Diego.
[00:23:11] And I got there and I was getting issued camis and boots
[00:23:16] and like we were getting ready to deploy to Kuwait
[00:23:18] because this was like August of,
[00:23:19] or this was like latter part of 2002.
[00:23:22] So we were like getting ready to go overseas
[00:23:25] for everything that was happening during operation
[00:23:26] and during freedom and during that time.
[00:23:28] And so I was like, what did I just get myself into?
[00:23:32] Because I thought I was going to a ship
[00:23:34] and then here I am in like a whole different world
[00:23:36] as I'm sure you're familiar.
[00:23:37] The CVs are just a whole different realm and such.
[00:23:39] And so, but it was such a blessing for me
[00:23:43] because it was like a form of reparenting
[00:23:46] like the amount of structure that I went into.
[00:23:48] I knew exactly what was expected of me.
[00:23:50] And it was also the first time that I learned how much
[00:23:53] I think because of the environment I grew up in
[00:23:55] that I thrive in crisis in some ways.
[00:23:59] Like things get crazy, something's happening.
[00:24:02] Everything for me just kind of calms down.
[00:24:04] And I wanted to lead and I found myself
[00:24:08] in a lot of leadership positions.
[00:24:09] I found myself an opportunity like volunteer for this,
[00:24:11] volunteer for that, I'll do it.
[00:24:13] And it really gave me the opportunity to just build
[00:24:16] a sense of self for the first time.
[00:24:18] The community, the feedback that I was getting
[00:24:21] was just huge for me.
[00:24:22] And then all kinds of doors opened up for me.
[00:24:24] The idea of like, I could go to school, I could do this.
[00:24:28] My first interest in doing some counseling such
[00:24:31] actually came from, I thought originally
[00:24:32] I was gonna go to school to do organizational psychology
[00:24:36] for leadership, like that was really my goal.
[00:24:38] I always wanted to be a leader for me.
[00:24:40] Just before you joined the Navy or once you got in?
[00:24:42] Once I got in, you know, and I was just kind of drawn
[00:24:45] into these situations where I knew that there was like,
[00:24:48] I don't know if you wanna call it a natural leadership
[00:24:50] quality, but there was just like this part of me
[00:24:52] that I had gone through so much and I had overcome so much
[00:24:55] that it was like people need that, you know,
[00:24:58] to like hear that story, to be a part of that.
[00:25:00] Like it just, it was a really powerful thing for me.
[00:25:05] And I was realizing for other people as well at the time.
[00:25:07] And so I got offered an opportunity to do some work
[00:25:11] with families in pre and post deployment sort of support.
[00:25:16] And it was very logistical at the time,
[00:25:18] how do you support families and like, you know,
[00:25:21] preparing for the logistics of bills or separation
[00:25:24] or what's going on.
[00:25:25] But what I realized at that time was that there was a
[00:25:28] significant amount of support that these families needed
[00:25:32] and understand like how much role shifts were happening
[00:25:35] when one of the partners would deploy and then I'm making
[00:25:38] this new group of friends while my husband or my wife
[00:25:41] is gone and they're making their new group of friends.
[00:25:43] And our kids are getting used to me as playing like both
[00:25:46] mom and dad and doing these different roles.
[00:25:48] And they just did not have the resources to be able
[00:25:51] to deal with that.
[00:25:52] And I think because I had gone through what I did as a child,
[00:25:55] I could recognize things related to like mental health
[00:25:58] or relationship issues or things like that.
[00:26:01] I didn't really have the skill set yet to know exactly
[00:26:03] what to do with that other than just my mindset was always
[00:26:06] like, you just do keep moving forward.
[00:26:09] And one step at a time and you make healthy decisions
[00:26:12] and you recognize that, you know, I don't exist in a vacuum
[00:26:14] and the things that I do matter and how I treat people matter.
[00:26:17] And I could support people a lot with that,
[00:26:19] but it was, that was what first drew me to the idea
[00:26:23] of counseling.
[00:26:24] And at the time I was working,
[00:26:28] when I decided to go to school for counseling,
[00:26:30] I was working as a contractor for HSC three.
[00:26:32] So this was after.
[00:26:33] So how long did you end up doing in the Navy?
[00:26:34] So I did five years.
[00:26:35] I did four years on active duty and then I extended
[00:26:37] for a year.
[00:26:38] How was that first deployment to Kuwait?
[00:26:40] It was intense.
[00:26:44] You know, we were at the Kuwaiti Naval Base.
[00:26:46] We came in during a time where really nothing was set up.
[00:26:49] Our goal is that being the CBs there,
[00:26:51] ACB one and ACB two were there at the same time.
[00:26:53] So when we got there, we knew we're not leaving for a while.
[00:26:56] Cops and CBs, by the way, CBs are awesome.
[00:26:58] Yes, they definitely are.
[00:27:00] And I definitely make friends with builders
[00:27:02] because your camp will be real nice.
[00:27:04] You'll get a nice little shelf up there
[00:27:06] and all the things that you need.
[00:27:07] And they'll steal you whatever you need.
[00:27:09] Which no one wants to talk about.
[00:27:12] I learned how to be very resourceful.
[00:27:15] There was also some aspects of being in the military
[00:27:17] as a female in that type of environment
[00:27:19] and a lot of things that were going on during that time
[00:27:21] that made it a scary situation sometimes too.
[00:27:23] You want to feel safe in that environment.
[00:27:25] But there was, you know, you're in the middle of the desert
[00:27:28] and people are going through wartime.
[00:27:30] And we had incoming missiles coming in.
[00:27:32] We're running to Connick's bosses that
[00:27:34] are buried in the ground for shelter.
[00:27:35] Like people were on edge during that time, for sure.
[00:27:41] But I learned a lot.
[00:27:43] And if anything, it was walking away from that knowing
[00:27:45] that I could, you know, it doesn't matter what life
[00:27:49] throws at you.
[00:27:50] If you just keep moving forward, you'll get through it,
[00:27:53] for sure.
[00:27:54] So if I can interrupt, I remember you telling a story
[00:27:57] one time, Megan, about having to dig holes
[00:28:01] to sleep in the ground and having your gun there
[00:28:05] because of how big the scorpions were.
[00:28:08] And having to protect yourself and guard yourself
[00:28:10] from the scorpions while you're in a hole in the desert
[00:28:13] at 127 degrees and you're like 19.
[00:28:18] Yeah, I think you can pretty much
[00:28:19] handle whatever is going to come your way in life.
[00:28:23] But I mean, this is sort of where you're talking about earlier,
[00:28:26] where one person can have one situation growing up
[00:28:28] and another can have an entirely different situation.
[00:28:30] And how you choose to respond is going to very much
[00:28:33] so shape the outcome of who you are.
[00:28:35] And so for me, I just, you know, there
[00:28:37] was a lot of opportunity to move into fear
[00:28:39] and have fear make you small.
[00:28:40] And for me, it was just like, I'm just going to keep going.
[00:28:42] But there wasn't, at that time in my life, I can't say,
[00:28:45] I mean, I was very young that I was intentionally, like,
[00:28:47] this is what I'm doing to overcome.
[00:28:49] Or that really wasn't there for me.
[00:28:50] It just like stopping or not moving or going backwards
[00:28:53] wasn't an option.
[00:28:54] Just keep moving forward with whatever kind of presented
[00:28:57] itself to me.
[00:28:58] So yeah, I was there for a year and actually didn't find out
[00:29:01] till the day before we were leaving that I was leaving.
[00:29:03] So it was like, you know, coming up to you like,
[00:29:05] here's your plane ticket, you're leaving tomorrow.
[00:29:07] I'm like, cool.
[00:29:08] And at the time, you know, cell phones weren't allowed.
[00:29:10] We couldn't have any of that.
[00:29:12] And so there was two phones in the camp for a camp of, gosh,
[00:29:16] don't quote me on this.
[00:29:17] But there was a lot of people.
[00:29:18] The army was there.
[00:29:19] I won't quote you on a lot of people being super specific
[00:29:22] like that.
[00:29:23] The, you know, special operations, special forces
[00:29:26] were there.
[00:29:27] The Air Force was there.
[00:29:28] We had Australian, British, you know,
[00:29:31] military was a huge camp, Kuwaiti Naval Base.
[00:29:33] And so two phones for a large group of people
[00:29:38] would make the line very long that you're
[00:29:40] waiting, you could be standing there in hours.
[00:29:41] And then there'd be an incoming missile.
[00:29:43] Everybody'd have to run, go take, you know, shelter.
[00:29:46] And then I gave up.
[00:29:48] So I didn't make any phones.
[00:29:50] And also for me, like, I, you know, I was, I was moving
[00:29:53] forward and didn't have a whole lot of connections to the past.
[00:29:55] So I was just, yeah.
[00:29:58] So you get done with your Navy career.
[00:30:00] You end up as a contractor.
[00:30:01] And this is, so when did you end up like going to school?
[00:30:06] So that was when I was a, when I was a contractor, I started.
[00:30:08] So I started with my, I actually went to school to be a pharmacy
[00:30:10] tech while I was still on active duty.
[00:30:12] I was, you know, single mom at the time and just raising my son
[00:30:16] and going to school at night and working during the day.
[00:30:18] And pharmacy tech seemed like a good option for me at the time
[00:30:21] to have a job when I got out.
[00:30:22] So I finished that before I got out.
[00:30:24] I started working at a compounding pharmacy.
[00:30:27] I very quickly realized this is not what I want to do.
[00:30:31] Went back to school for my bachelor's in psychology
[00:30:34] and then started working towards my master's
[00:30:37] in that contractor work.
[00:30:38] So my bachelor's and my master's all came after I had separated
[00:30:42] from the military.
[00:30:43] So, and so yeah, I obtained my master's while I was working
[00:30:47] as a contractor and was introduced for my practicum.
[00:30:50] So in counseling psychology, you have to do some pre-degree
[00:30:54] and post-degree hours, about a total of 3,000 direct,
[00:30:57] like direct and indirect clinical hours in order
[00:31:00] to obtain your degree.
[00:31:00] And so you get introduced to various treatment centers
[00:31:03] while you're in your school to, you know,
[00:31:07] get that experience and practice.
[00:31:08] And that was when I was actually introduced to Humblechia,
[00:31:10] which was owned by Kerry and Carlin at the time.
[00:31:12] So treatment center for clients
[00:31:14] with complex psychiatric disorders.
[00:31:16] And again, for me at the time, I was like,
[00:31:18] this is just sounds so interesting, family therapy
[00:31:21] and all of that.
[00:31:22] In my mind, I was going to school
[00:31:23] because this was the school that I could do at night
[00:31:26] while I was commuting.
[00:31:27] I was commuting from Temecula down to Naval Air Station
[00:31:30] at the time.
[00:31:31] It was like 72 miles one way.
[00:31:32] And so I was just kind of moving through life, like,
[00:31:35] you know, just doing the things that I thought
[00:31:36] I needed to do to move forward.
[00:31:39] And then I met Kerry and Carlin
[00:31:41] and I came to know Humblechia.
[00:31:43] And Humblechia was just this really special place.
[00:31:48] It was like, I like to call it like a,
[00:31:51] I'm very much all about like small business ownership
[00:31:53] and like what that means for our economy and such.
[00:31:56] But Kerry and Carlin just, they just owned this treatment
[00:31:58] center and it was not, it was just a small family owned place
[00:32:03] where like people just 100% threw themselves
[00:32:06] into helping these families.
[00:32:08] And I was drawn to it so much because the families
[00:32:11] that were walking through there were definitely
[00:32:12] the types of family, like could have been my family, right?
[00:32:15] And here I was in this place where really beautiful things
[00:32:19] were happening in terms of supporting these people
[00:32:21] suffering through very severe things.
[00:32:23] I mean, when you have a loved one who has a chronic,
[00:32:25] complex psychiatric disorder,
[00:32:27] something that you're not getting rid of, right?
[00:32:28] We're like making friends with this.
[00:32:30] We're learning how to, how to, how to,
[00:32:32] how to, you know, accept it, grieve what I thought
[00:32:38] was gonna be for my kiddo, you know, whatever it may be.
[00:32:41] When a family lets you into their life to like walk
[00:32:43] through that path of them is a very special thing.
[00:32:46] And I knew at that point like, okay,
[00:32:49] this is what I wanna do.
[00:32:49] I wanna work with families.
[00:32:51] And when I started to realize not only in my own life,
[00:32:55] but in what we were doing that we were creating
[00:32:58] like generational change, like when you can help
[00:33:00] a family system shift away from abuse or addiction
[00:33:05] or grief or in a way that allows them to envision
[00:33:11] a different identity for themselves.
[00:33:13] Like life could be different.
[00:33:14] Like we don't actually have to keep going in this way
[00:33:17] or continue these patterns.
[00:33:19] I mean, you think about the impact of that
[00:33:21] for years and years to come.
[00:33:23] We're talking about hundreds of people
[00:33:25] that could be impacted by one person choosing
[00:33:27] to do something different.
[00:33:29] That was like everything to me.
[00:33:30] And that's what I knew I wanted to do.
[00:33:32] And it's what I realized I was able to do for my family
[00:33:35] in a lot of ways.
[00:33:37] And then this sort of became my family when I was there.
[00:33:41] Like just, I was able to be seen in a different way.
[00:33:44] It was like, oh, we have this new leadership opportunity.
[00:33:46] Like you do it.
[00:33:47] And I'm like, me?
[00:33:49] And this is an interesting,
[00:33:53] this is the kind of the intersection between me and you two,
[00:33:56] which is, you know, I got a group of friends
[00:33:58] and we invest in a bunch of different things.
[00:34:01] And at one point, you know, my buddy Joe said,
[00:34:06] hey, we're gonna invest in this.
[00:34:07] We're gonna buy some real estate.
[00:34:09] And it's gonna be used by this mental health facility.
[00:34:11] And I was like, you know, cool.
[00:34:12] I mean, literally with them,
[00:34:13] they just kind of tell me what,
[00:34:15] like they tell me a three minute,
[00:34:17] hey, this is what we're putting money into.
[00:34:18] I say, cool, give them some money.
[00:34:20] We throw it in there.
[00:34:21] And at some point we invested in sort of a branch
[00:34:24] of Hamletchia and then that branch got swept
[00:34:29] into Hamletchia and the whole thing got bought.
[00:34:31] And so, you know, we,
[00:34:33] it was a cool situation for us.
[00:34:35] You know, we made money and high-fived.
[00:34:37] And then that eventually rolled into this new venture,
[00:34:41] which is the new treatment center, which again,
[00:34:44] I mean, I'm just basically like,
[00:34:47] I don't wanna say a gambler,
[00:34:48] but a little bit of a gambler.
[00:34:49] Like you're just letting money roll, you know,
[00:34:50] like, oh, just leave it on the table.
[00:34:52] And that's kind of what I did.
[00:34:53] The next thing, you know, I'm invested in this,
[00:34:55] in this new treatment center
[00:34:56] and that's all starting to take place.
[00:34:58] And so that's kind of how we all know each other
[00:35:02] was from that connection, you know,
[00:35:05] from me just kind of letting my money sit on the table
[00:35:07] and hope it keeps doing well.
[00:35:10] That's how we all know each other.
[00:35:13] But look, so thank you for your backgrounds.
[00:35:17] Definitely, I'm sure we could do a whole podcast
[00:35:19] about like each one of your stories
[00:35:21] because there's a lot there.
[00:35:23] But I wanna kind of get to the topic at hand, right?
[00:35:27] Which is me trying to get a better understanding
[00:35:29] of mental health issues.
[00:35:31] And, you know, we were talking about before hit record
[00:35:34] that just different things can hit people so differently.
[00:35:38] And two people can experience the same,
[00:35:40] literally the same traumatic event
[00:35:43] and have totally different reactions.
[00:35:46] As you were talking, Megan, I was thinking that
[00:35:50] like in SEAL training,
[00:35:51] the people that make it through SEAL training
[00:35:53] are so radically different.
[00:35:55] You've got a kid that grew up with a silver spoon
[00:35:57] in his mouth and he makes it through no problem.
[00:35:58] You got another kid that makes it,
[00:35:59] the silver spoon in his mouth and he quits the first day.
[00:36:01] You got someone that grew up on a farm in Iowa
[00:36:04] and he makes it through no problem.
[00:36:05] Someone else that grew up on a farm in Iowa
[00:36:07] and they quit the first day.
[00:36:08] And everyone in between,
[00:36:09] you got a kid from the ghetto that, you know,
[00:36:11] didn't have anything and he just makes it through.
[00:36:14] Some other kid from the ghetto first day,
[00:36:15] I'm not putting up with this shit.
[00:36:16] And that's, so these different lives
[00:36:20] can have just a radically different outcome.
[00:36:23] What are some of the main causes
[00:36:26] of mental health issues?
[00:36:28] Like what is, and I know there must be several factors.
[00:36:32] I mean, there must be some that are hereditary.
[00:36:34] You kind of mentioned that, Karlyn,
[00:36:36] like there are some hereditary things
[00:36:37] and there must be some things that are brought on
[00:36:39] by the environment that you grow up in or what you see.
[00:36:42] So what are some of the kind of main causes?
[00:36:47] Well, there's, gosh, there's so many.
[00:36:49] It's hard to narrow them down.
[00:36:51] And like I was saying earlier,
[00:36:53] so many of these things are unseen.
[00:36:55] They're invisible.
[00:36:56] They can't be like located so much on a map, so to speak.
[00:37:00] But things like temperament, you know,
[00:37:02] like the kind of the traits and characteristics
[00:37:04] that we're born with are gonna play a role.
[00:37:08] Our upbringing, of course.
[00:37:10] Like I'm thinking when you would share that story
[00:37:11] about being in Kuwait and I'm like,
[00:37:14] I, first of all, I would have never made it there.
[00:37:17] But like, I don't think I could have done that.
[00:37:20] Now, is it, do I not have a tenacious personality
[00:37:24] or perseverance?
[00:37:25] No, I've got some of that.
[00:37:25] But I think about my early upbringing, right?
[00:37:28] Where just living was hard.
[00:37:31] Digging a hole to like survive.
[00:37:32] That would have been at this whole other level for me.
[00:37:34] So my history, so people's histories, messages,
[00:37:40] like in the family, like that's a,
[00:37:42] and this is my opinion.
[00:37:43] What's a message, for example?
[00:37:44] Like for example, I like to ask families
[00:37:48] or family members sometimes.
[00:37:50] So how did you guys do feelings?
[00:37:53] Hmm.
[00:37:54] What were feelings like?
[00:37:58] Most of the time you're gonna have folks say,
[00:38:00] oh, we don't talk about feelings.
[00:38:03] We don't actually do feelings.
[00:38:06] Oh, okay, so when something difficult happens,
[00:38:10] you know, you get bullied at school,
[00:38:12] your boyfriend breaks up with you,
[00:38:16] grandma passes away.
[00:38:17] What did you guys do?
[00:38:20] Oh, nothing, we just had dinner.
[00:38:23] Like, you know, right?
[00:38:23] So right here, right, there's something.
[00:38:26] A family that didn't acknowledge feelings,
[00:38:28] talk about feelings, have a way to process
[00:38:32] what was happening is going to have a certain effect
[00:38:35] versus the family you ask.
[00:38:37] And they're like, oh, we talked about feelings all the time.
[00:38:38] Anytime something happened,
[00:38:39] we sit down and have a big family meeting about it.
[00:38:42] That person is gonna be shaped very differently
[00:38:45] in terms of managing stress and managing conflict
[00:38:50] and negotiating hardship, right?
[00:38:53] So family messages and family,
[00:38:57] almost like traditions around things like feelings
[00:39:02] or how you handle hardship.
[00:39:04] I mean, the book I'm writing right now has a lot to do
[00:39:07] with the impact of secrets.
[00:39:09] So, and finding that that has a big impact.
[00:39:13] Well, I just see it gets in the family.
[00:39:15] Secrets like, yeah, like we don't talk.
[00:39:17] Like if something happens,
[00:39:20] we're just not gonna talk about that.
[00:39:21] We're not gonna talk about it amongst ourselves.
[00:39:23] We're not gonna share this with the outside world,
[00:39:26] under the rug, in the vault, whatever you wanna call it.
[00:39:29] So you think about, again,
[00:39:31] it's not gonna affect everybody the same way,
[00:39:33] but how easy it would be for a person then to develop,
[00:39:37] especially if they're young,
[00:39:39] this idea that like, oh, when bad things happen
[00:39:42] or when difficult things happen,
[00:39:43] you're not supposed to talk about that.
[00:39:45] You're supposed to keep it to yourself.
[00:39:47] Don't share.
[00:39:49] So what happens for those folks
[00:39:51] who are faced with something difficult
[00:39:52] or faced with a hard decision
[00:39:53] or faced with a stressful circumstance?
[00:39:58] And then it's also so individual
[00:40:01] because someone can say, oh, my grandma died
[00:40:06] and I'm looking at my dad and he looks stoic.
[00:40:09] That seems like a good thing to do.
[00:40:10] That seems like a good example, right?
[00:40:12] Or, oh, my grandma died and my dad looks stoic.
[00:40:16] He doesn't care.
[00:40:18] And so it's like your interpretation,
[00:40:21] people's individual interpretation.
[00:40:23] And even when you were talking, Megan,
[00:40:24] like when you joined the military
[00:40:26] or even you saw this recruiter
[00:40:28] and you kind of say, oh, this guy looks put together.
[00:40:31] And you get the military and you're like, okay,
[00:40:32] here's what I should be doing.
[00:40:34] And like your perception of what you're seeing
[00:40:38] and then your decision to say, oh, I can step up.
[00:40:41] I can volunteer for this.
[00:40:43] I can make this happen.
[00:40:44] Like just people's own interaction with reality
[00:40:49] and what's going on is so different.
[00:40:52] And is there a way that you can take people
[00:40:56] and show them the positive one?
[00:40:57] Does that work?
[00:40:58] Is that a thing to do?
[00:41:00] Like let me give you an example.
[00:41:01] I have a kids podcast that I do sometimes
[00:41:05] and I'll answer kids questions.
[00:41:06] I've written a bunch of kids books.
[00:41:08] And one of the questions I got one time was from a kid
[00:41:10] and I've got multiple forms of this question is,
[00:41:13] and this actually reminds me of you, Karlyn.
[00:41:15] The question was like, oh,
[00:41:19] sometimes kids don't like to hang out with me
[00:41:21] and I feel like I'm alone.
[00:41:25] How can I feel better about that?
[00:41:28] And I answered the question like, hey,
[00:41:30] it's okay to be alone.
[00:41:32] I'm alone sometimes and it's okay.
[00:41:33] Sometimes you're gonna be alone
[00:41:34] and you don't always have to have people around you
[00:41:35] and it doesn't mean they don't like you.
[00:41:37] It doesn't mean you're not gonna have friends.
[00:41:38] It's just that sometimes you're alone and that's okay.
[00:41:41] And I mean, that's to me is a legitimate answer
[00:41:45] because let's say your mom says, why are you alone again?
[00:41:50] Why don't you have any friends?
[00:41:51] That might start to mess you up.
[00:41:54] As opposed to mom saying, oh, what are you reading?
[00:41:57] Oh, here's a book.
[00:41:58] So how we're interacting and how things,
[00:42:02] how you perceive the world can be so different
[00:42:05] that these things, and again, you got a kid
[00:42:07] that grew up in Iowa that quits
[00:42:09] and you got a kid that grew up in Iowa on a farm.
[00:42:11] They both grew up in the same exact thing.
[00:42:12] One of them quits, one of them makes it.
[00:42:15] So do you as therapists, as psychologists,
[00:42:18] get to try and guide and open and show those positive things?
[00:42:21] Is that what we're doing here?
[00:42:23] Well, I think we're trying to create
[00:42:25] some reparative experiences
[00:42:27] because when you talk about the story of the guy who quit
[00:42:29] or the guy who went, I would be really curious
[00:42:31] about his history and past around what happened
[00:42:34] when he was struggling, when he was having a hard time
[00:42:36] or needed to move through something
[00:42:38] or didn't know if he could move forward.
[00:42:40] What was the response or message
[00:42:41] that he received in his environment?
[00:42:42] And the thing about some of these aspects of mental health
[00:42:45] that are very complex, hard to pinpoint
[00:42:47] exactly what needs to be,
[00:42:49] but the story that you just told about this child,
[00:42:51] that response, when someone chooses to lean in
[00:42:54] and be vulnerable in a way and ask a question
[00:42:56] or look out for support,
[00:42:57] how we respond to them is pivotal
[00:43:00] because it shapes their experience
[00:43:02] of whether or not that's a safe thing to do again
[00:43:04] in the future.
[00:43:05] So we talk about what cultures
[00:43:07] or what things influence why someone might keep things
[00:43:10] to themselves or be less inclined to share
[00:43:12] or come forward if they're struggling with something
[00:43:15] is how we respond is huge.
[00:43:17] And so there's so much aspects of what's going on
[00:43:20] for another person that we don't actually have control over.
[00:43:23] But what we do have control over
[00:43:24] is sort of our own reaction to
[00:43:26] when someone is sharing something with us
[00:43:28] that appears upsetting,
[00:43:30] do we wanna shut it down
[00:43:32] and kind of they should be fine and get moved past it
[00:43:35] because that creates an experience for them
[00:43:36] or can we kind of tolerate
[00:43:38] whatever feelings are coming up for us
[00:43:39] when we see someone who's struggling
[00:43:41] or with working through something
[00:43:42] that I have no idea how to fix or how to respond to,
[00:43:45] but can I sit with them for enough time
[00:43:47] to create an experience for them
[00:43:49] that lets them know that like,
[00:43:52] if something's coming up for me again
[00:43:54] or if I need to work through this,
[00:43:55] it's safe to come to this person
[00:43:56] or this environment is safe enough
[00:43:58] to be able to share what's going on for me
[00:44:01] because if it's not and that person goes inside,
[00:44:03] then when we look at more severe things like suicide
[00:44:06] or very chronic psychiatric disorders,
[00:44:09] that becomes much more debilitating
[00:44:12] in a way that can cause someone their life.
[00:44:17] I think what you said, I also, I so appreciate what you said.
[00:44:20] Did I give a good answer?
[00:44:21] You did, that was really good.
[00:44:22] Very lucky.
[00:44:24] Of how you responded to the kid, right?
[00:44:27] To me, I'm like, there it is.
[00:44:28] Perfect.
[00:44:29] As opposed to say a mom or somebody else
[00:44:31] that would be like, well, come on, what are you doing wrong?
[00:44:33] How come you don't have any friends?
[00:44:35] Versus like, oh, I'm sorry to hear that bud,
[00:44:37] but you know what, it's okay.
[00:44:39] It's okay sometimes to be alone.
[00:44:40] I'm sorry that you're feeling bad about that today,
[00:44:42] but okay, it's all right.
[00:44:44] There's something about the,
[00:44:47] like I'm just acknowledging what you're going through.
[00:44:49] I'm not trying to change it, I'm not making it wrong,
[00:44:51] I'm not telling you you should be doing something different.
[00:44:54] And that brings out that safety piece.
[00:44:56] And in fact, some research into resiliency.
[00:44:59] So speaking to how come some kids kind of bounce back
[00:45:03] and get better and some kids really flounder over here.
[00:45:08] Some of the research shows that there needs to be opportunities
[00:45:12] to make mistakes and like not be essentially shamed
[00:45:16] or made in trouble, opportunity to fix them,
[00:45:21] which means you gotta use new skills
[00:45:23] and like try and experiment and trial and error.
[00:45:25] And you need to have at least one adult.
[00:45:30] If you got more, that's even better,
[00:45:31] but you need to have one adult that is kind of a safe guide.
[00:45:37] Like somebody that you can feel safe with
[00:45:40] that's gonna kind of get ya and say, you know what, buddy,
[00:45:42] it's all right, sorry, that one did not work out so well,
[00:45:44] we'll try it again tomorrow.
[00:45:46] Versus the shaming, you're wrong, how come you did that?
[00:45:51] You should know better, like those kind of things.
[00:45:53] So resiliency is about having adults, especially as kids,
[00:45:56] having adults that can say, yep, you know what,
[00:45:59] sometimes it's just like that, I'm sorry, but it's okay,
[00:46:02] you'll be fine.
[00:46:05] I had another guy who's a neuroscientist named
[00:46:08] Andrew Huberman on here and we were talking about
[00:46:11] like winning and losing his kids.
[00:46:12] And he said, it's through your whole life,
[00:46:15] you gotta push yourself, you gotta lose sometimes.
[00:46:18] And he actually gave the percentage and he's got research
[00:46:20] or whatever, he's a stamp for doctor,
[00:46:22] so I guess he's smarter, whatever, Andrew.
[00:46:25] But we came down, it's like 80% of the time,
[00:46:28] you want the kid to kind of do well,
[00:46:30] and then 20% of the time, they should like lose.
[00:46:32] If they start, what I did with my kids
[00:46:35] was lose 90% of the time, like put them
[00:46:38] in really hard situations and that's not the good way
[00:46:41] to do it.
[00:46:41] Luckily, my kids turned out pretty resilient.
[00:46:44] But I was just like, oh, you're gonna get beat down,
[00:46:47] it's gonna make you tougher, it's gonna make you stronger.
[00:46:49] And no, what happens is they just start
[00:46:52] to feel like a loser, right?
[00:46:53] So you gotta be careful with that, but that 80%,
[00:46:55] I think it's a good number to, okay, 80% of the time,
[00:46:58] you're winning or you're evenly matched,
[00:47:00] but you're doing well, 20% of the time,
[00:47:02] you gotta be pushing yourself into some situations.
[00:47:04] And that's the weird thing, like the seal training,
[00:47:06] like I'm talking about kids that were Division I wrestlers,
[00:47:10] right, quit.
[00:47:12] Division I wrestling is so insanely hard.
[00:47:16] And they have all kinds of hypothesis, you know,
[00:47:19] somebody that was a really good athlete,
[00:47:21] they've never really been, they've never lost.
[00:47:23] And when you get the seal training, you're gonna lose.
[00:47:25] Like you're gonna fail stuff.
[00:47:27] And so that can be a problem with people's mentality
[00:47:31] because they've just never lost before.
[00:47:32] And then there's some kid that's been getting beat down
[00:47:35] this whole life, he's like, oh, cool, I failed, whatever,
[00:47:37] I'm gonna keep going.
[00:47:38] So how do you diagnose, you know, again,
[00:47:44] I made the car mechanic thing.
[00:47:45] And the cool thing, the interesting thing about this metaphor
[00:47:49] is even a car mechanic, you bring a car
[00:47:50] and there's a whatever, a tapping noise in the engine.
[00:47:54] He doesn't necessarily know 100%, what is it?
[00:47:57] He's like, ah, it could be this, could be that.
[00:47:58] He's gotta dig in there.
[00:47:59] So is that the way diagnosis works?
[00:48:03] You're sort of like, okay, here's a problem,
[00:48:07] you're getting super emotional.
[00:48:09] We don't know what's causing it yet,
[00:48:11] that's the tapping, right?
[00:48:12] You're getting super emotional.
[00:48:13] And then what are we doing to diagnose?
[00:48:14] How does it happen?
[00:48:18] Pretty much, I mean, it is a, let's look over here.
[00:48:23] Oh, that doesn't really seem to be the problem.
[00:48:25] Let's try this over here.
[00:48:26] Now personally, what I have found is,
[00:48:28] and not everybody works this way, this is totally fine,
[00:48:31] is I like to go into like, how did you get here?
[00:48:36] Right, so I'm gonna ask all kinds of questions
[00:48:38] about what happened in the family
[00:48:40] and how were things talked about
[00:48:42] and what did you experience
[00:48:44] and how was that managed in the family?
[00:48:46] Because I see those things as they shape.
[00:48:49] So now we have this tapping that's happening right now
[00:48:52] where there's something probably that went on back then
[00:48:55] that has to do with it.
[00:48:56] Some therapists, some psychologists don't,
[00:49:00] they look at like what's happening right now
[00:49:01] and how do we move it forward?
[00:49:02] They are not gonna spend a lot of time in the past,
[00:49:04] it's preference, but I mean, I can't tell you
[00:49:07] how many times what walked through the door
[00:49:10] is not what we ended up finding.
[00:49:12] Sure, right, somebody, I mean,
[00:49:14] some of my earlier years in private practice,
[00:49:17] I worked a lot with eating disorders
[00:49:19] and because I was also still learning
[00:49:22] and didn't have as much experience
[00:49:25] as I would have within a few years as,
[00:49:27] oh, it's meal plan, this person is afraid of getting fat.
[00:49:31] This person thinks they're more popular
[00:49:34] but they're skinny, whatever, all of these things.
[00:49:36] So we would kind of target those behaviors.
[00:49:39] Let's get you on a good meal plan,
[00:49:41] let's talk about self-esteem, et cetera, et cetera.
[00:49:44] Over the years, it was kind of insane
[00:49:48] how much I discovered through looking back,
[00:49:51] like there was trauma in there
[00:49:53] or some kind of really defining event
[00:49:58] that happened in that young person's life,
[00:50:00] that the eating disorder behaviors, so to speak,
[00:50:04] were almost like the manifestation of something else.
[00:50:07] What kind of, what would be a something else?
[00:50:10] Like abuse, like often, especially with girls,
[00:50:15] you'd see like a sexual assault or sexual abuse.
[00:50:19] Sometimes that's something that was happening
[00:50:20] in the family that was not being talked about,
[00:50:23] would be kind of stuffed down
[00:50:27] and then expressed through these behaviors.
[00:50:30] So almost psychologically, you can interpret that
[00:50:34] a little bit as if we're spending all of our time over here
[00:50:36] on meal plans and weight gain and weight loss,
[00:50:38] what are we not looking at?
[00:50:40] The secret over here that nobody wants to talk about.
[00:50:43] So sometimes finding an origin
[00:50:49] that then explains the symptoms,
[00:50:52] then you treat the origin, the issue over here
[00:50:55] versus the symptoms, kind of like the analogy
[00:50:58] I've used a million times, even with clients, is
[00:51:01] if you come in with like a severe case of pneumonia
[00:51:05] and the only thing we're doing
[00:51:07] is giving you some cough syrup to help your cough,
[00:51:11] like that's gonna help a little bit.
[00:51:12] I mean, it's gonna help you feel a tiny bit better,
[00:51:14] but nothing, in fact, you might even get worse
[00:51:17] if we don't really treat the thing
[00:51:19] that's really underneath the cough.
[00:51:22] Like the cough actually is not really the issue.
[00:51:24] This is the other thing.
[00:51:25] Yeah, this is the really humanizing part
[00:51:27] in terms of what you're talking about,
[00:51:29] because I think we have to be really mindful
[00:51:31] and responsible as clinicians with how we talk
[00:51:34] about the use of diagnoses.
[00:51:36] In my private practice, I often get people coming to me
[00:51:38] that it's their first time they've reached out
[00:51:40] for mental health services, they've gone somewhere,
[00:51:42] and they spent just a short meeting with someone
[00:51:45] and they were given a diagnosis by polar disorder.
[00:51:47] Something that's very severe.
[00:51:48] They go look this up on the internet,
[00:51:50] they start attaching all these things to their personality.
[00:51:53] The web MD.
[00:51:54] And now I am bipolar disorder.
[00:51:57] I start to attach these things to my personality.
[00:52:00] And that language is very powerful over time,
[00:52:03] because if I am something or something is happening to me,
[00:52:05] I have much less control over how I respond to it
[00:52:07] as opposed to this idea that I'm experiencing
[00:52:11] some symptoms associated with bipolar disorder,
[00:52:14] or I'm experiencing some symptoms associated with this.
[00:52:16] Or after some reflection, I have an addressed trauma
[00:52:21] in my past that's showing up like very volatile outbursts
[00:52:25] or something like that.
[00:52:26] And so I think how we talk about it is really important.
[00:52:31] Because nowadays, and if you have kids my age,
[00:52:34] there's plenty of kids walking around self-diagnosed
[00:52:36] as OCD or depression or these sorts of things,
[00:52:39] because they hear about something and I am this
[00:52:41] and I can't do this because I have this.
[00:52:42] And so I think one of the first things we try to do
[00:52:46] with people is start to talk about the impact and history,
[00:52:49] because it allows us to create a framework to talk about things
[00:52:52] that are more humanizing,
[00:52:54] as opposed to the symptoms or like a label.
[00:53:00] So this made me think of something that I said a while ago.
[00:53:04] I looked up the definition of being insane.
[00:53:07] And being insane was when your reality
[00:53:10] doesn't match the reality of the world.
[00:53:12] And we have an online training program
[00:53:15] and I was telling you, I said, hey, everyone is insane.
[00:53:18] Everyone is to some level insane,
[00:53:20] because if the three of us witness an event
[00:53:23] or participate in an event,
[00:53:25] it's gonna be a little bit different for all of us.
[00:53:26] Like our reality is gonna be a little bit different.
[00:53:29] Well, no, you said this, I didn't say that, I said this.
[00:53:32] So we're gonna have different interpretations of reality.
[00:53:34] So everyone therefore is a little bit insane, right?
[00:53:37] And it's just how insane are you?
[00:53:41] And when you start looking at that,
[00:53:44] like the most horrifying thing, like anorexia,
[00:53:49] where the person is so clearly malnutritioned
[00:53:56] and so clearly like 100% of people in the world
[00:54:01] would say you need to eat more.
[00:54:04] And that one person, the person that has it,
[00:54:07] just they just don't see that.
[00:54:10] That's gotta be the scariest, scariest environment.
[00:54:14] Like for a parent, I can't even fathom
[00:54:17] what that's doing.
[00:54:20] So as you're talking about, Karlyn,
[00:54:23] you're talking about addressing the,
[00:54:26] like finding this original, this initial problem.
[00:54:30] And that's how we're able to address that,
[00:54:34] bring that into the light, get that thing solved,
[00:54:37] and it solves the symptom that we're all seeing.
[00:54:40] Pretty much.
[00:54:40] I mean, and that's the mechanic work, right?
[00:54:42] Is you're kind of digging.
[00:54:44] And sometimes the person will know,
[00:54:47] like I had this thing happen,
[00:54:49] and I think my symptoms are related to this.
[00:54:51] Sometimes they're not aware.
[00:54:53] I had a young girl that I was treating for anorexia.
[00:54:56] She was a cheerleader and a ballerina.
[00:54:59] So much pressure, right?
[00:55:01] To maintain this very malnourished, very thin body
[00:55:05] and all the guilt, like even eating something
[00:55:08] that had a carb in it, just like, I can't,
[00:55:11] I'm gonna get fathom, I'm not gonna get picked.
[00:55:13] I'm so destructive and interfering with life.
[00:55:18] So I'm working with her and I'm trying
[00:55:20] the end this thing and this thing,
[00:55:21] and we're trying it over here,
[00:55:22] and I don't know, your worth isn't wrapped up
[00:55:24] in your ballerina stuff.
[00:55:25] Nothing was happening.
[00:55:26] So you are focused on the physical life.
[00:55:28] At the time.
[00:55:29] You look fine.
[00:55:30] Because this is all she was presenting with is like,
[00:55:32] I know, like it's almost like, I know,
[00:55:34] this is not good for me,
[00:55:36] I just don't really know what to do about it.
[00:55:37] But there wasn't really much else.
[00:55:39] Try getting the parents in, they didn't wanna come in,
[00:55:41] which really should have been my first clue.
[00:55:44] And long story short, just to get to this point,
[00:55:47] is months and months of meeting with her and like,
[00:55:50] well, what about this?
[00:55:51] And I don't know, what about that?
[00:55:52] She says, well, you know, my mom said,
[00:55:57] she didn't want me to talk about this.
[00:56:00] But I feel like I should.
[00:56:02] I think I was molested by my cousin when I was like 12.
[00:56:06] I'm like, oh, so I'm like, here we go.
[00:56:09] So I'm asking her all these questions.
[00:56:11] And she just tells this really very sad,
[00:56:17] kind of horrible story about learning that she,
[00:56:21] like learning something at school that made her think,
[00:56:23] oh my God, I think that happened to me.
[00:56:25] Going home, telling her parents and her parents like,
[00:56:28] do not tell anybody about this,
[00:56:30] this is gonna ruin everybody's life, la, la, la, la.
[00:56:33] Right, just don't talk about it.
[00:56:35] Well, no, she's a ballerina.
[00:56:37] Right, like all that got stuffed down
[00:56:40] and kind of channeled in this way that she could control
[00:56:44] her environment a lot of time, a lot of the time.
[00:56:48] So we start unpacking this and it turns out,
[00:56:51] as she tells me about this event that made her think
[00:56:54] that she might have been molested, that's not what happened.
[00:56:57] She was in some class at school
[00:57:00] and they were talking about something
[00:57:01] and she like almost like misinterpreted.
[00:57:05] So this, for years, there was this whole thing
[00:57:08] that had happened in her family
[00:57:09] where she said she had been molested,
[00:57:10] but she really wasn't.
[00:57:14] They thought she was, shut it down,
[00:57:16] didn't let anybody talk about it,
[00:57:18] and now she's coming in for treatment
[00:57:20] for anxiety and an eating disorder, right?
[00:57:23] Soon as we got there and we got it and she was,
[00:57:26] I mean, she bought in, she was like,
[00:57:27] oh my God, I had no idea, at this point she's maybe 18.
[00:57:30] I think I started seeing her, she was just 15.
[00:57:32] Like all of a sudden, it was like all that symptomology
[00:57:37] went away.
[00:57:38] I mean, it didn't vanish overnight
[00:57:40] because she'd been doing those behaviors for a long time,
[00:57:42] but that clarity of like, oh, this is what this was about.
[00:57:46] This being made to be wrong.
[00:57:50] I thought this bad thing had happened to me
[00:57:52] and I was like essentially punished for it
[00:57:56] and told that if I tell and something happens to my cousin,
[00:57:59] it's gonna be my fault.
[00:58:01] So not being able to talk about it,
[00:58:03] being told by her mom, don't go talk about this in therapy.
[00:58:07] She wouldn't go to therapy for, right?
[00:58:08] But it was that, like that's an example of you kind of,
[00:58:11] we just had to peel and peel and ask questions
[00:58:14] and when we found it, it cleared up.
[00:58:17] Because right, like you said,
[00:58:18] like it kind of brought it into the light.
[00:58:20] We could address what the real problem was
[00:58:23] and then the symptoms, the cough, so to speak,
[00:58:27] alleviated because the root, the core,
[00:58:30] had been addressed.
[00:58:31] So there is a lot in psychological practice and treatment
[00:58:36] that does involve some...
[00:58:38] And it took you years, three years to get through this.
[00:58:41] I saw her every week.
[00:58:43] Because she, and she was really like,
[00:58:48] I was told not to talk about this.
[00:58:51] So she kind of knew something was back there,
[00:58:54] but she was also young and had been directed
[00:58:57] by her family, don't talk about this.
[00:58:59] If you talk about this and she calls the school
[00:59:01] and your cousin gets in trouble, then Aunt and Uncle,
[00:59:04] or like, you know, so just...
[00:59:07] But it was, what was, if you can go into it a little bit,
[00:59:10] like, well, you, because you said it didn't really happen,
[00:59:12] but she thought it happened.
[00:59:13] Well, yeah, so she said she was at school one day
[00:59:15] and they were doing one of these assemblies, right?
[00:59:17] Where you're giving like the kids education
[00:59:18] on healthy touch and inappropriate touch.
[00:59:21] Like, just, you know, maybe she's 15 at this time.
[00:59:24] She was also a very immature, only child,
[00:59:27] a little bit sheltered, so maturity-wise,
[00:59:30] she was a little, little behind, I think.
[00:59:34] And so she said, so this thing was happening
[00:59:37] and I told my friend, oh my God,
[00:59:38] I think I might have been molested
[00:59:40] because this thing happened with my cousin.
[00:59:42] So I'm like, okay, so can you tell me what happened
[00:59:44] with your cousin?
[00:59:45] So she tells me this event, which was really like,
[00:59:51] at a party one night, like all the cousins
[00:59:54] and aunts and uncles, the kids decided to like,
[00:59:57] play a joke and like, skinny dip.
[00:59:59] Like, they all went into the pool house,
[01:00:01] like, stripped off their clothes and like,
[01:00:02] ran into the pool and made a big joke
[01:00:06] and everyone got in trouble
[01:00:07] because the parents were there and this kind of thing.
[01:00:09] And she goes, it was my cousin's idea.
[01:00:11] So, okay.
[01:00:13] She goes, so he molested me, right?
[01:00:15] I'm like, what?
[01:00:18] What?
[01:00:20] In her mind.
[01:00:21] She had, because she heard this thing at school
[01:00:24] and her friend said, oh my God,
[01:00:25] it was your cousin that said you should take off your bathing.
[01:00:27] So I think that's molest.
[01:00:28] I think that's inappropriate, whatever.
[01:00:29] Like it grew into this thing.
[01:00:32] But when she really, when we went back
[01:00:34] and walked through the event,
[01:00:35] she goes, well, no, it was, it was my cousin's idea.
[01:00:37] But like, we all did it.
[01:00:38] No one touched anybody.
[01:00:41] It was, we thought it would be funny.
[01:00:43] So tragic.
[01:00:45] I mean, this is, this, to me, and she did,
[01:00:48] once we got there, she did beautifully.
[01:00:49] She's off at college.
[01:00:51] I mean, doing wonderfully, but the years, right?
[01:00:55] Of a misunderstanding of something that happened.
[01:00:57] It was all like the telephone game, right?
[01:00:59] She told this person, they told this,
[01:01:02] it just by the time it arrived at her parents,
[01:01:04] it was this whole other thing.
[01:01:06] Scary.
[01:01:07] So scary.
[01:01:08] Megan, something you were talking about
[01:01:10] when you were talking about,
[01:01:11] oh, people kind of self-diagnosed at some point
[01:01:14] where they get a diagnosis from somebody.
[01:01:17] And oh yeah, we had a friend of mine on here.
[01:01:20] There's an ancient native American saying
[01:01:23] that something along the lines of,
[01:01:26] it's not a diagnosis, it's a curse.
[01:01:29] Like if you get diagnosed with something
[01:01:31] and you can hear it as a curse, like this is what you are.
[01:01:36] How much play does it give to me?
[01:01:40] I mean, well, obviously I wrote a book
[01:01:41] called Extreme Ownership, Taking Ownership,
[01:01:43] of like what's going on in your world.
[01:01:45] And instead of being, oh, I'm bipolar, that's what I am.
[01:01:48] It's like, no, I have some symptoms
[01:01:50] and here's how I'm gonna get control of this.
[01:01:52] Is that something that comes into play
[01:01:55] in getting people moving in the right direction?
[01:01:58] I would say absolutely yes.
[01:02:00] I mean, because what we're trying to do is help people
[01:02:04] identify differently with what's happening in their life
[01:02:06] or create a new narrative or story
[01:02:08] around what's going on in their life.
[01:02:09] So, I mean, this happens not just with the individual,
[01:02:12] but with families, right?
[01:02:14] Like if I'm, if I hear that my kiddo
[01:02:16] who's historically done really well,
[01:02:18] they're talented, they've done it well in music,
[01:02:20] all through high school, all of a sudden they're in their
[01:02:21] first or second year of college
[01:02:23] and they're starting to display
[01:02:24] some really interesting symptoms.
[01:02:27] They have their first psychotic break.
[01:02:28] It's like devastating for a family.
[01:02:30] Like what happened?
[01:02:31] It's very common or on that age frame
[01:02:32] for something like this to happen.
[01:02:35] All of these ideas start coming up.
[01:02:39] My son has schizophrenia.
[01:02:40] He'll never be able to get married.
[01:02:42] He'll never be able to hold down a job.
[01:02:45] We're never gonna see our son graduate from college.
[01:02:48] We're not gonna be able to do the family vacations.
[01:02:50] You just say it just goes on and on.
[01:02:52] And so you sit with these families
[01:02:53] and there's just such a sense of hopelessness.
[01:02:56] And so what we try to do is come back a little bit to say,
[01:03:00] like, well, you know, why don't you think
[01:03:03] he's able to live alone?
[01:03:05] Well, he hasn't taken out the trash all week.
[01:03:07] His room is a mess.
[01:03:08] He stays in there all by himself.
[01:03:10] Well, how come, how was he able to do that?
[01:03:12] Like how was he able to sit in his room all day
[01:03:15] and like not experience the natural consequences?
[01:03:17] So say, if I went in my room all day,
[01:03:18] stop going to school or work or whatever it may be,
[01:03:21] like things would fall apart in my life.
[01:03:22] How is that able to happen?
[01:03:23] And so what we can get to,
[01:03:26] and this takes a lot of time,
[01:03:27] is essentially the fear associated with like,
[01:03:30] if I was to push him towards something
[01:03:32] or if he's not capable or because of this illness,
[01:03:35] now he can't do this.
[01:03:36] And we have to really unpack,
[01:03:37] and it's different for every family,
[01:03:39] but we have to really unpack that to figure out
[01:03:41] what it is that they've decided collectively.
[01:03:44] This means for their life, right?
[01:03:46] These symptoms or this diagnosis,
[01:03:47] and then help them envision something
[01:03:49] sort of different for themselves.
[01:03:50] And then create experiences for individuals to play that out.
[01:03:54] Well, he's been taking out the trash all week here,
[01:03:56] and if he doesn't, his peer tells them like,
[01:03:58] hey, you didn't take out the trash,
[01:03:59] and so go do that,
[01:04:00] or experience some of the natural consequences
[01:04:04] associated with IFI,
[01:04:05] just leave my stuff everywhere.
[01:04:08] You know, my roommate tells me like,
[01:04:10] hey, you know, room like stinks,
[01:04:11] can you like clean this up?
[01:04:13] Like some of that peer to peer interaction,
[01:04:14] but we have to create those opportunities for that.
[01:04:17] And then interestingly,
[01:04:18] when people start to engage in this,
[01:04:19] they just not like a cognitive like,
[01:04:20] oh yeah, I'll go do this thing,
[01:04:22] and something will be different.
[01:04:23] It's usually more like I act,
[01:04:25] I have these experiences,
[01:04:26] I walk through something difficult,
[01:04:28] my symptoms got really activated
[01:04:29] when I was gonna go try to learn how to take the bus,
[01:04:32] or do the trolley,
[01:04:33] but you know what, like, I had someone with me,
[01:04:35] and I was able to do it,
[01:04:36] and it was like okay,
[01:04:37] and it didn't stay that way forever.
[01:04:38] And so the kind of the insight comes a little bit later,
[01:04:42] with the experience,
[01:04:44] that like I can experience some discomfort,
[01:04:46] or I can let my kiddo struggle a little bit,
[01:04:49] or go through something,
[01:04:50] and I can actually tolerate some of my fear
[01:04:52] that this could be like devastating for him.
[01:04:54] Because you know, oftentimes,
[01:04:56] when we get to it, especially for families who have,
[01:04:59] you know, we're sort of in a good place
[01:05:02] if a family's coming to us at a first break,
[01:05:04] because we can help them like right there,
[01:05:06] but oftentimes people come to us 14 hospitals.
[01:05:09] Like a last resort type thing.
[01:05:10] 14 hospitalizations in multiple short term treatment centers.
[01:05:14] What does break look like?
[01:05:15] What does that look like?
[01:05:16] I mean, it looks like a break from reality.
[01:05:19] It's different for each person.
[01:05:20] You know, that process sometimes can appear
[01:05:24] like what you see more often in like movies,
[01:05:26] in such sort of bizarre, or paranoia, or I see aliens.
[01:05:29] Sometimes for people with significant personality disorders,
[01:05:32] and this way like delusions can be grounded
[01:05:34] almost in something like that feels real.
[01:05:36] Like it could be a real situation,
[01:05:38] but it's in fact not when you get down to it.
[01:05:41] So, but ultimately it's just a disconnect
[01:05:44] from what's happening in the here and now,
[01:05:46] in a lot of different ways, and it could be auditory,
[01:05:48] it could be tactile in terms of a person's experience
[01:05:51] of what they're feeling in their body,
[01:05:53] maybe visual, just a break from reality.
[01:05:57] A break from reality.
[01:05:58] So, a family, they got a 18 year old kid,
[01:06:02] a 20 year old kid, they're in college,
[01:06:05] they're going to college, everything's fine,
[01:06:06] and then all of a sudden, just give me an example.
[01:06:08] What does this look like?
[01:06:09] So, I mean, for example, what it might look like
[01:06:11] is they're calling home and like,
[01:06:12] my neighbors are, they're listening to me.
[01:06:14] My neighbors are really bothering me.
[01:06:16] Like they're listening through the walls.
[01:06:18] I know that they're doing these things.
[01:06:19] So, this is like an obvious.
[01:06:21] I mean, it could be, yes,
[01:06:23] or it could be as a parent you're hearing this,
[01:06:24] you're like, that's really odd.
[01:06:25] Like why would the neighbors be listening to them?
[01:06:28] Or so sometimes this can go on for a period of time
[01:06:30] where there's like some things that, you know,
[01:06:32] you notice some more isolation
[01:06:33] or not hanging out with friends as much,
[01:06:35] or maybe there's some substance use that is sort of new.
[01:06:38] And so it's not always so like in your face obvious.
[01:06:41] It might not be like the neighbors are watching me.
[01:06:43] It might be like, oh, I'm not doing anything this weekend.
[01:06:46] Or even how many times we've had,
[01:06:49] like somebody come into the treatment program
[01:06:51] and the parents say, well,
[01:06:54] we thought everything was great.
[01:06:55] He's at college, like he seems like he's fine,
[01:06:57] but we started getting calls from his friends.
[01:07:00] Hey, we think something's going on.
[01:07:02] It's not really coming out anymore.
[01:07:03] Seems to be hanging out in his room all the time.
[01:07:05] But then we call him and he says he's okay.
[01:07:08] Right, so there's this like,
[01:07:09] we don't really know what's going on
[01:07:11] and how many times we've had, you know, family sales.
[01:07:14] So we just decided to like get in the car
[01:07:16] and drive up there and see what was going on for ourselves.
[01:07:18] And they find their kid like disheveled,
[01:07:22] maybe haven't been eating.
[01:07:23] So what's going on with that kid?
[01:07:25] Well, like what's an example of, okay, I get the call.
[01:07:29] Hey, your son is, he's, hey, you know, Billy,
[01:07:33] Billy's not come out with us for like three weeks.
[01:07:36] We haven't even seen him.
[01:07:37] We just want to call you and let you know,
[01:07:38] like he's really been acting weird.
[01:07:40] And so I call Billy and Billy says, no, I'm fine.
[01:07:42] I just been studying really hard.
[01:07:44] This has been a pain in school
[01:07:45] and I'm really sick of Fred anyways.
[01:07:47] So I'm just doing my own thing.
[01:07:48] I go, okay.
[01:07:50] And then, you know, I get another call.
[01:07:52] It's his ex-girlfriend.
[01:07:53] You know, I just, I saw him the other day.
[01:07:55] He just looked totally different.
[01:07:57] So I drive up there and there he is in his room.
[01:08:01] His room is a mess.
[01:08:03] What's going on with him?
[01:08:04] What is it?
[01:08:05] Is it something that he saw?
[01:08:09] Is it something that got triggered?
[01:08:11] Is it like, what is it?
[01:08:14] Do we know?
[01:08:16] Sometimes we do and sometimes we won't.
[01:08:17] And this is where like the mechanic has to come in, right?
[01:08:19] And figure it out.
[01:08:20] Sometimes it's going to be very obvious.
[01:08:21] Like a more common scenario that we've experienced is like,
[01:08:25] everything was fine.
[01:08:26] Star athlete, blah, blah, blah, goes to college,
[01:08:29] seems to be making friends,
[01:08:30] decided to start smoking weed a little bit and then boom.
[01:08:34] Right?
[01:08:35] It set something off.
[01:08:36] Some people can smoke weed, that will not happen.
[01:08:40] You know, there's some theory and hypothesis
[01:08:43] that some people, you can be like predisposed
[01:08:48] for schizophrenia or psychosis,
[01:08:50] but it not necessarily come out,
[01:08:53] but it will under certain conditions
[01:08:55] and sometimes drug use is one of those.
[01:08:57] So you can have somebody who's predisposed,
[01:08:59] like has genetic loading and never kind of becomes
[01:09:03] systematic.
[01:09:04] All life and you could be one of these people.
[01:09:06] And then you've got somebody who has a genetic predisposition
[01:09:11] and they go to college and they start smoking a little weed
[01:09:14] and it like cracks something open internally and here it comes.
[01:09:19] But it could be a girlfriend breakup.
[01:09:20] Totally.
[01:09:21] Could be, you know, getting into the frat or whatever.
[01:09:26] Disappointment.
[01:09:27] Just something like that.
[01:09:29] And this can, in some cases,
[01:09:30] people can just kind of, they're changing.
[01:09:33] And sometimes it goes away naturally.
[01:09:36] Sometimes it's like, oh yeah,
[01:09:38] he was bummed out for a few weeks,
[01:09:39] but hey, we just saw Billy,
[01:09:41] he's actually, he's come forward.
[01:09:42] He's supposed to do it better.
[01:09:43] Sure, yeah.
[01:09:44] And it's, we can get, a person can get through it.
[01:09:48] Sure, we've had folks come in,
[01:09:49] like the one person I'm thinking about was,
[01:09:52] I think he was in his freshman year at college.
[01:09:54] Again, great student, scholarship, football.
[01:10:00] I mean, just a lot of friends, great girl.
[01:10:02] Like just really kind of all around.
[01:10:04] And they got a call.
[01:10:05] The parents got a call from the police,
[01:10:07] the local police in their son's town,
[01:10:11] that they found him like running around outside,
[01:10:14] like half naked, like kind of crazy,
[01:10:16] screaming and doing weird things.
[01:10:18] And they're like, wait, did you call the right people?
[01:10:20] That was not my kid.
[01:10:22] Well, he had smoked, he had never done drugs,
[01:10:25] or you know, maybe he had it a little bit.
[01:10:27] But smoked weed and he couldn't,
[01:10:29] he's like, I don't know, someone just gave it to me.
[01:10:30] So who knows what was in there?
[01:10:32] Well, it did something to this guy's brain.
[01:10:34] I mean, it just scrambled him.
[01:10:36] He did not know what way it was up or down,
[01:10:38] went into the hospital.
[01:10:40] They brought him to us for treatment,
[01:10:42] never been in treatment.
[01:10:42] I mean, had never had anything happen like this before.
[01:10:45] He was back in school, I think by the next semester.
[01:10:49] Like he needed, he came in, you know, we got him settled,
[01:10:53] kind of walked through what happened.
[01:10:55] Soon as the drugs were out of his system,
[01:10:58] which didn't take a long time,
[01:10:59] because he wasn't really a chronic user.
[01:11:02] He cleared, like he instantly cleared in his mind.
[01:11:05] So in that case, diagnosis-wise,
[01:11:09] it was a substance-induced psychosis.
[01:11:13] Substance-induced psychosis.
[01:11:16] So soon as the substances were out of his symptoms,
[01:11:21] there was no more psychosis.
[01:11:22] He cleared.
[01:11:23] So really, it was just helping him almost recover from,
[01:11:27] I mean, that was a traumatic event.
[01:11:29] And he was embarrassed and had all the shame.
[01:11:31] There was like a lot of stuff.
[01:11:32] He had to kind of process and recover from,
[01:11:35] and then he went back to college.
[01:11:37] Same school.
[01:11:38] Well, an early intervention there is huge.
[01:11:40] Super early.
[01:11:41] Because, you know, the further away the intervention,
[01:11:43] the person starts to find ways to self-sue
[01:11:45] there whatever might be,
[01:11:46] and it becomes much more complex at that point.
[01:11:49] So if someone has one episode,
[01:11:53] they're easier to help than someone that's had 28.
[01:11:57] And the parents were just like,
[01:11:58] oh, he'll be fine.
[01:11:59] Oh, it's just Billy.
[01:12:00] He's just, he acts up sometimes,
[01:12:01] and then that goes on for three, four, five years.
[01:12:04] He's gonna be harder to treat.
[01:12:06] Or the brain stays in a constant state of psychosis
[01:12:08] for a longer period of time.
[01:12:10] It's hard to know what it's gonna look like
[01:12:11] when they come out of that, right?
[01:12:13] Explain what psychosis actually means.
[01:12:18] You wanna go?
[01:12:19] Yeah, well, it's, well, you had said it earlier.
[01:12:21] It's a break in reality.
[01:12:23] Psychosis typically is defined as a break
[01:12:28] in contact with reality.
[01:12:30] And what's interesting though about psychosis,
[01:12:32] and I say this in the presentation and in the book,
[01:12:36] is people can be psychotic,
[01:12:40] people can be psychotic, have a psychotic episode,
[01:12:42] and it not be related to a mental illness.
[01:12:44] Right.
[01:12:45] What would that look like?
[01:12:48] Anesthesia.
[01:12:50] Like under anesthesia,
[01:12:51] people have reported hallucinating, malnourishment
[01:12:54] and dehydration, somebody can hallucinate,
[01:12:56] hear voices, have delusions.
[01:12:59] Sleep deprivation.
[01:13:00] Sleep deprivation 100%.
[01:13:03] So there are a lot.
[01:13:04] In CO training, they keep you awake for a long time.
[01:13:06] And you know, we wouldn't be surprised
[01:13:07] if you are seeing some things
[01:13:09] that maybe are not actually there.
[01:13:10] Yeah, I was out on the boat in the middle of the ocean,
[01:13:12] and I thought I saw like traffic lights,
[01:13:15] and I was like, hey, we gotta stop.
[01:13:17] And I actually knew that I was hallucinating.
[01:13:18] I was like, that can't be real,
[01:13:20] because I'm in the ocean, but that definitely is a stoplight.
[01:13:22] And I think we should stop,
[01:13:23] but that doesn't make any sense.
[01:13:25] Head injury.
[01:13:28] So psychotic event is when you're disconnected
[01:13:33] from reality in a big way.
[01:13:34] Yeah, like a break and kind of the contact in reality.
[01:13:37] Like seeing something that isn't there,
[01:13:39] feeling, hearing something, or delusion, right?
[01:13:42] Like a belief that somebody's following me,
[01:13:45] somebody's watching me, somebody's out to get me.
[01:13:49] I was telling one of my friends the other day
[01:13:53] in supervision that one of my very first patients
[01:13:55] who had schizophrenia, and he was pretty severe,
[01:13:58] had a belief that he was like,
[01:14:01] every once in a while he was reincarnated as somebody else.
[01:14:04] So, but like, you know, sometimes he would talk about that,
[01:14:08] like funny, he would be like, oh my God,
[01:14:10] Karlyn, remember last week when I told you
[01:14:12] I thought I was Ram Dass?
[01:14:14] I'm like, mm-hmm, I do remember that.
[01:14:16] He's like, wow, that was really weird, oh my God.
[01:14:18] Oh, so he kind of knew it.
[01:14:19] And then he wouldn't, like then sometimes he wouldn't.
[01:14:21] He'd be like so in it and very like fixed
[01:14:26] that you really couldn't kind of talk him out of it,
[01:14:30] so to speak.
[01:14:30] So here I'm gonna open up just the biggest can of worms.
[01:14:33] What the hell happens when I'm on the internet
[01:14:36] and social media and I'm starting to think
[01:14:38] that I'm a little bit conspiratorial
[01:14:41] and I start reading various websites
[01:14:45] that are just totally Reddit,
[01:14:49] which is like a website that has a bunch of different
[01:14:52] random things, I mean, I guess they all do.
[01:14:54] I mean, you can go down, you can do any Reddit, YouTube,
[01:14:57] any one of these things, you can go watch something
[01:14:59] on YouTube that if you have a little bit of an indication
[01:15:02] that the world might be flat,
[01:15:04] you guys heard of Flat Earthers?
[01:15:06] Yeah, that.
[01:15:07] Yep, they're out there.
[01:15:07] Yeah, the Earth is flat and there's videos upon videos
[01:15:11] upon threads upon threads of the Earth is flat.
[01:15:14] So if you have a little bit of paranoia about something,
[01:15:18] that can't be good for you.
[01:15:20] You have to be really mindful of that.
[01:15:22] The internet is a dangerous place.
[01:15:25] Like WebMD, self-diagnosing.
[01:15:27] Oh yeah.
[01:15:32] How bad is that?
[01:15:33] Like, I mean, you talk about, oh, somebody can smoke weed.
[01:15:37] How bad is it if I think, you know what,
[01:15:39] I really think that there's a world order
[01:15:42] that's trying to keep me down?
[01:15:43] Well, I mean, I think it depends on the person
[01:15:45] and their ability to sort of like self-moderate
[01:15:47] their exposure to stuff like that.
[01:15:49] Cause if you're in a healthier place
[01:15:51] and you can moderate your exposure to that
[01:15:53] and you realize, gosh, I just spent two hours
[01:15:55] scrolling through this, super unhealthy,
[01:15:56] I'm not feeling good and I can set some sort of boundaries
[01:15:58] for myself around that, then like, what's, it's positive.
[01:16:01] You know, I think we all have the tendency
[01:16:03] towards indulgence in some ways.
[01:16:05] But for someone who struggles with that
[01:16:07] or who's coming to us and like every time
[01:16:08] they turn on the news, there's a significant amount
[01:16:10] of paranoia for them and that causes them to act
[01:16:12] in response to those delusions or thoughts
[01:16:14] in a way that's like harmful to them or others.
[01:16:17] Well, then we help moderate some of that.
[01:16:19] You know, a lot of the treatment that we do
[01:16:20] and why it takes so much time is creating
[01:16:22] some scaffolding around things like that.
[01:16:23] So the people can develop that insight
[01:16:25] if it's not readily available to them
[01:16:27] because with something like schizophrenia,
[01:16:29] I mean, it's a thought disorder.
[01:16:30] It's impacting your cognition,
[01:16:32] your ability to think in a lot of ways.
[01:16:33] And so if someone is not able to self-regulate
[01:16:36] in that way, we help create some scaffolding for them.
[01:16:39] So like maybe we're not watching the news at five tonight
[01:16:41] because that's not gonna end up good
[01:16:43] because every time you do, you end up out on the streets
[01:16:45] or whatever it might be in an embarrassing state.
[01:16:47] You just don't want me to watch the news
[01:16:49] because you don't want to know what's going on
[01:16:50] because you're part of a conspiracy.
[01:16:52] Well, a lot of times, which is why it's so important
[01:16:55] to build a sense of rapport and safety with someone,
[01:16:59] to be consistent in what you're doing
[01:17:00] and have an environment that's consistent
[01:17:02] so that people feel safe enough
[01:17:03] to allow you to support them.
[01:17:04] And they will in a lot of ways with time.
[01:17:09] But the work that we do is not a quick fix.
[01:17:11] People spend a long period of time with us
[01:17:16] and so that we can develop enough safety
[01:17:19] where they will buy into trying some of the things
[01:17:21] that we're requesting or suggesting might be helpful for them.
[01:17:26] And so that then they can develop some of their own insight.
[01:17:28] Like, oh, wow, I haven't had this much paranoia
[01:17:31] or I haven't been this kind of undone for a period of time
[01:17:34] and I also haven't watched the news for this period of time.
[01:17:37] Like maybe that is helpful for me.
[01:17:39] And then usually when they come to the latter part
[01:17:41] of their time or their journey where they're more
[01:17:43] in like an outpatient type setting,
[01:17:45] they can reflect back some of those things.
[01:17:47] Like I didn't like the structure that you put me on
[01:17:49] or I didn't like this particular thing,
[01:17:52] but I realize now why that was so helpful for me.
[01:17:55] Do people have to be open to wanting to change
[01:18:00] in order to change?
[01:18:02] And if you have someone that's just like,
[01:18:04] the parent put them in there, the 23 year old kid,
[01:18:06] hey, look, you're going in here, you're gonna get fixed.
[01:18:09] That's like all of our people.
[01:18:11] From our perspective is especially when you're working
[01:18:15] with something like a thought disorder like schizophrenia,
[01:18:17] a systemic containment is incredibly helpful.
[01:18:21] Systemic containment?
[01:18:22] Meaning that the family is helping to support
[01:18:25] some sort of boundaries around the options
[01:18:28] that the child has in a lot of ways.
[01:18:30] Because sometimes people will come to us
[01:18:31] and their kiddo has schizophrenia,
[01:18:33] that they don't want to come to treatment,
[01:18:35] they don't want to do these things,
[01:18:36] they don't want to do some things that are gonna help them.
[01:18:38] Wait, the kid doesn't?
[01:18:39] The kid doesn't.
[01:18:40] But yet, and the family's like,
[01:18:42] I don't know what to do, he doesn't want to come.
[01:18:44] So like, well, how does he have this car?
[01:18:47] How does he have this apartment?
[01:18:48] He's like not able to work.
[01:18:50] And so we help the family really create some structures
[01:18:52] around like sort of some boundaries in a way of like,
[01:18:55] I'm here to support you and I'm gonna help you
[01:18:57] on this journey within the context of this realm
[01:18:59] that's gonna be helpful for you.
[01:19:00] But you've gotta do your part type of thing.
[01:19:01] Exactly, so a lot of times when folks come,
[01:19:03] they aren't necessarily happy to be there,
[01:19:05] but they just don't have a lot of options.
[01:19:07] And we really work with family, extended family,
[01:19:09] grandparents, whatnot to be like,
[01:19:10] don't send that $500 check because if you do,
[01:19:13] I know you feel bad and he doesn't have any money,
[01:19:15] he's probably gonna be out on the streets drinking
[01:19:17] or whatever it might be.
[01:19:18] And so we work with as many people as we can
[01:19:20] to create a nice safe container in some ways,
[01:19:23] which is the treatment environment.
[01:19:25] Because with what we do, it's not a locked setting.
[01:19:27] It's sort of the least restrictive type of environment
[01:19:30] in a residential setting, but it requires a ton of containment
[01:19:33] and support from every member of like the community
[01:19:35] that's working there in the family to make sure that
[01:19:38] there's a path and maybe there's a couple options
[01:19:40] to the path, but it's really clear and they're tight
[01:19:42] and contained so that the person can actually have
[01:19:46] some experiences and we can calm down some of the things
[01:19:48] that are happening in these symptoms so that they can begin
[01:19:51] to develop some of their own insight or understanding
[01:19:53] as to why.
[01:19:54] And sometimes, the hardest part about the work that we do
[01:19:57] is that you can want to help someone,
[01:19:58] you can want to save them, you can want to,
[01:20:02] and they might not want that and it might not be the choice
[01:20:05] that they have for themselves and we've had to walk through
[01:20:09] losses in that way as well.
[01:20:11] So I do think there is a component of that person wanting
[01:20:14] some of that and even if somebody on the surface
[01:20:17] doesn't want it, families and the people around them
[01:20:20] can do a lot to create an environment for them
[01:20:21] where they can grow in that desire for themselves.
[01:20:25] And sometimes people don't.
[01:20:29] So this is like a tough love scenario in some way.
[01:20:33] Am I right?
[01:20:34] It's like a tough love scenario.
[01:20:35] So sometimes, I've got friends and they might be having
[01:20:41] a hard time with whatever, maybe they're drinking
[01:20:46] or they're not doing what they should be doing.
[01:20:49] And I think most of the time what they need is,
[01:20:55] bro, what are you doing?
[01:20:56] You're being an idiot, stop doing that.
[01:20:58] And they go, yeah, man, you know what, I'm being an idiot.
[01:21:00] I need to stop doing that.
[01:21:01] It seems like that's a vast majority of the time
[01:21:03] of what people need.
[01:21:04] What scares me is, you know, if I say,
[01:21:08] what are you doing?
[01:21:09] You're being an idiot.
[01:21:11] And they really do have like some significant issue
[01:21:13] that they don't have any control over.
[01:21:15] They can't help.
[01:21:15] And all of a sudden I was just the worst friend ever
[01:21:19] by saying, dude, you're being a wimp,
[01:21:21] just get over it and move forward.
[01:21:23] And they think, oh, Jocko's saying I'm a wimp.
[01:21:27] That means I really am a wimp.
[01:21:28] That means I'm not good enough.
[01:21:30] And they go down and I'm worried
[01:21:32] that they would go down a spiral as opposed to,
[01:21:36] hey man, stop acting like that.
[01:21:37] Hey, quit blaming this incident
[01:21:40] on the way you're acting now.
[01:21:41] You know, you need to show up to work on time.
[01:21:44] You need to get a job.
[01:21:45] You need to stop drinking.
[01:21:46] Sometimes like that's, and I think actually most of the time
[01:21:50] people just need like, bro, what are you doing?
[01:21:52] And I'm talking bro because these are my friends
[01:21:55] that are dudes.
[01:21:57] Even though oddly enough, my daughters call each other bro.
[01:22:00] And they call all their friends bro that are all females.
[01:22:04] They got it down.
[01:22:05] Yeah, so, but is there some way to discern
[01:22:11] whether someone's crossed the line into,
[01:22:13] okay, listen, tough love isn't gonna help this individual
[01:22:16] anymore and I need to get them some real help?
[01:22:18] Cause that's the scary thing.
[01:22:21] I'll experience that with a person that I know
[01:22:23] and acquaintance that I have, a friend that I have that,
[01:22:26] oh, he's not looking good, right?
[01:22:29] Stop working out, which to me is a big indicator of,
[01:22:32] oh, stop working out.
[01:22:33] Doesn't, you know, not to really eat like crap
[01:22:35] and seems to be drinking a lot.
[01:22:38] And what I wanna say and what I have said to do guys is,
[01:22:42] bro, what are you doing?
[01:22:43] Why are you not working out?
[01:22:45] You're getting fat.
[01:22:46] What are you doing?
[01:22:46] Like, how much are you drinking?
[01:22:48] Are you drinking every night?
[01:22:49] What's wrong with you?
[01:22:50] Get back on the path.
[01:22:51] Like stop.
[01:22:52] And oftentimes they're like, yeah, but I've been so lazy.
[01:22:55] I need to, I've been thinking about this thing,
[01:22:57] but you're right, I need to keep going.
[01:22:59] But then I get the feeling sometimes is like,
[01:23:01] it's deeper and worse.
[01:23:04] Is there any way to discern?
[01:23:06] Is there any warning signs to look out for
[01:23:08] between these two individuals,
[01:23:10] one of whom needs this good kick in the ass
[01:23:13] that's gonna get them moving in the right direction?
[01:23:15] And the other one, I kick them in the ass,
[01:23:17] they're gonna fall down the stairs
[01:23:18] and it's gonna hurt them.
[01:23:20] I mean, that's a tough question.
[01:23:22] I mean, discernment is important
[01:23:24] in knowing people's history and such,
[01:23:25] especially in the work we do.
[01:23:26] I think it's different, you know,
[01:23:27] when you're looking from a clinical perspective,
[01:23:29] but discernment is huge.
[01:23:30] And at the same time, I think one of the hardest things
[01:23:33] in loving or caring about somebody
[01:23:34] who's struggling with something is that
[01:23:35] we don't necessarily have control
[01:23:37] over how they respond to what we try to give them.
[01:23:39] And so, you know, coming from a place of,
[01:23:41] if my approach is tough love
[01:23:44] in terms of what you're describing
[01:23:45] and like what you're being honest and true to yourself,
[01:23:49] and can also add that other part of like,
[01:23:50] there's a part of me that's sort of fearful
[01:23:52] that if I have tough love on you,
[01:23:54] that's like, this is gonna go kind of sideways for you.
[01:23:56] Does that feel true for you?
[01:23:57] And just sort of being direct and honest with people.
[01:23:59] I mean, I think people can feel congruency.
[01:24:01] They can feel care.
[01:24:02] And tough love, if it's coming from a place that's like love,
[01:24:06] it's felt very differently than something that's critical
[01:24:09] or mean or suggests like,
[01:24:11] I'm gonna cut you off from my life
[01:24:12] if you don't do this thing.
[01:24:14] That's very different.
[01:24:15] So when we talk about tough love,
[01:24:17] and oftentimes it is working families,
[01:24:18] you're like, this isn't mean.
[01:24:19] This is actually the most loving thing you could do
[01:24:21] for this person because to say nothing
[01:24:24] or to let them continue on in a way
[01:24:26] where their life is just deteriorating,
[01:24:27] well, that would be horrible, right?
[01:24:30] So like to do nothing would be very harmful.
[01:24:33] And so I don't think, I mean,
[01:24:35] this is the hardest thing about severe mental illness
[01:24:38] is that we can try a lot, we can say a lot,
[01:24:40] we can do things we don't necessarily have control
[01:24:42] over what somebody's gonna do with the feedback
[01:24:44] that we give them.
[01:24:46] And there's risk too, right?
[01:24:47] There's definitely risk involved
[01:24:49] in doing some of those things.
[01:24:51] And it doesn't always have a positive outcome
[01:24:55] to set boundaries and things like that.
[01:24:57] And at the same time, I think being congruent
[01:25:01] is like most important.
[01:25:03] And I think what you said earlier about rapport,
[01:25:06] like I think about some of the clients
[01:25:07] I've seen for the longest,
[01:25:09] I mean, I have relationships with these,
[01:25:10] I know these guys, you know these guys.
[01:25:12] Like I can tell, like and I can,
[01:25:15] because I have rapport, I always joke,
[01:25:17] like you've heard me say this in supervision,
[01:25:19] like I'm sometimes surprised myself
[01:25:21] with how much I can get away with saying.
[01:25:23] Because I have enough rapport
[01:25:24] where I know the person's gonna be able to handle it.
[01:25:26] Even if it's something like,
[01:25:28] I have a client this literally just happened.
[01:25:29] I said, you sound like a crazy person right now.
[01:25:34] And she's like, I know, don't I?
[01:25:35] I said, you kinda do.
[01:25:36] Now I wouldn't say that to everybody
[01:25:38] and if I didn't have that kind of relationship
[01:25:40] with a different client, I'm not gonna say that.
[01:25:41] That could be construed as like rude and very not PC, right?
[01:25:45] But with her, I can say it like,
[01:25:46] you're doing that thing right now
[01:25:48] where you just, you kinda sound
[01:25:49] and look like a crazy person.
[01:25:50] Can you pull it together?
[01:25:51] And she'll be like, okay, you know, we move on.
[01:25:54] But if I were to say that to her, say one afternoon
[01:25:57] and she can't pull it together,
[01:25:59] or she, how dare you say that to me?
[01:26:02] Or she reacts in a way that's different
[01:26:04] than my experience of her typically.
[01:26:07] You know, that's gonna be my discerning clue of like,
[01:26:09] okay, this might be something a little bit more
[01:26:11] than she's just having a moment.
[01:26:14] Like I know her enough or I know him enough
[01:26:16] to know like, oh, I kinda pulled the like, come on,
[01:26:20] get your shit together.
[01:26:21] I know you can do this and it works.
[01:26:24] And the times when it seems to not really be working,
[01:26:27] then it's just my clue that, okay,
[01:26:28] there maybe is something a little bit more happening here.
[01:26:30] So I'm just gonna like change my approach a little bit,
[01:26:33] slow it down and maybe ask more questions instead of say,
[01:26:36] hey, come on, get it together and move on.
[01:26:38] It might be like, so what's happening?
[01:26:40] Because you seem different to me today
[01:26:42] than you did last week, what's going on?
[01:26:44] I might ask a little bit more to see if more comes out.
[01:26:49] But I think there's a place for both.
[01:26:51] People really, especially people
[01:26:54] who are very disorganized internally,
[01:26:56] which you will see more with psychosis,
[01:26:58] or just in a funk, in their depression,
[01:27:01] in their grief, whatever, whatever.
[01:27:05] They need actually like the scaffolding on the outside.
[01:27:09] Somebody to say, okay, you know what?
[01:27:10] You need to get up, go take a shower,
[01:27:13] brush your teeth, meet me in the kitchen in 15 minutes.
[01:27:16] Like that kind of direction actually helps gel
[01:27:19] some of the looseness that's happening internally
[01:27:22] when someone's really struggling.
[01:27:23] And then there's gonna be times hopefully
[01:27:25] when that's not needed,
[01:27:26] that they can do that for themselves.
[01:27:29] From, this is sort of, I guess, parallel
[01:27:33] or at least adjacent to the social media stuff
[01:27:35] we were talking about this,
[01:27:36] the idea that we did a podcast on social contagions, right?
[01:27:40] Which is, and I think one of the best examples
[01:27:43] that I read about was bulimia.
[01:27:45] And when the first reported case of bulimia
[01:27:49] was in 1979 or something like this,
[01:27:51] I forget the dates, but this guy did an article
[01:27:56] about these girls who were making themselves sick.
[01:27:59] And there was three or four girls
[01:28:01] that he did this report on.
[01:28:03] And after that, the number of cases
[01:28:07] went completely through the roof.
[01:28:10] Same thing with cutting.
[01:28:13] Like this happens with young females a lot.
[01:28:16] They cut themselves,
[01:28:17] but it'll spread through a community,
[01:28:20] through a friendship group of girls.
[01:28:22] Happens with suicide.
[01:28:24] You know, there's this thing where,
[01:28:25] and this always scares me because,
[01:28:27] you know, doing a podcast like what we're doing today
[01:28:29] and a lot of people are gonna listen to this.
[01:28:31] When they put up anti-suicide
[01:28:35] or suicide help hotline numbers in a community,
[01:28:38] oftentimes the suicide rate increases
[01:28:41] because now it's putting it in their mind.
[01:28:43] How much do you,
[01:28:44] how much have you all seen of that in the last,
[01:28:47] you know, 10 years?
[01:28:48] And I guess it's maybe even less than that,
[01:28:50] seven years of where people are so connected
[01:28:54] to social media where, oh, you know what,
[01:28:57] Billy's depressed and he seems like he's getting
[01:28:59] a lot of attention for being depressed.
[01:29:01] And I kind of, you know,
[01:29:03] I didn't have anything to do on Friday night.
[01:29:05] And so I'm probably not that popular.
[01:29:07] I'm actually gonna be depressed too.
[01:29:09] How much is that impacting people?
[01:29:11] Because let's face it, you know, 100 years ago,
[01:29:15] people weren't talking about this.
[01:29:16] And so what were they doing?
[01:29:18] You know, like, oh, I'm depressed,
[01:29:19] but that's just the way I feel.
[01:29:20] And they didn't even have a name for it.
[01:29:21] So guess what they did?
[01:29:22] They went to work and they carried on
[01:29:23] and maybe they didn't feel great, but they carried on.
[01:29:26] What role is this total connectedness that we have
[01:29:31] and you know, we all can't even compare
[01:29:34] to the 15 year olds that are connected
[01:29:39] like 100% of the time that they're awake,
[01:29:42] they're connecting and being influenced
[01:29:44] by everyone else in the world.
[01:29:47] What impact have you all seen from that?
[01:29:52] It's substantial.
[01:29:54] And I think it is with the onset.
[01:29:56] In fact, I think it around like when smartphones happened.
[01:30:00] Oh yeah.
[01:30:00] That's where I kind of, like the internet was already there.
[01:30:02] You could go online and look at a bunch of stuff,
[01:30:04] but at your fingertips.
[01:30:06] And now with, you know, Instagram and all the things,
[01:30:08] I mean, you're just constantly looking,
[01:30:10] who's doing what, who's saying what,
[01:30:12] who's endorsing what, who's against what
[01:30:14] and the attachment to all of that.
[01:30:17] And also the social disconnect,
[01:30:20] like from other human beings versus,
[01:30:23] instead of having a conversation with you
[01:30:25] or asking you your opinion about something
[01:30:27] or going to you to talk about something
[01:30:29] that might be on my mind,
[01:30:30] I'm looking to see who's saying what
[01:30:32] and what are other people doing about it.
[01:30:34] Which is influencing my feed
[01:30:36] and all the things that are coming out
[01:30:37] of the algorithm.
[01:30:38] Like how many, like I didn't get as many likes as you got.
[01:30:41] What does that mean about me?
[01:30:44] In addition to what you were saying earlier
[01:30:46] about like the self-diagnosing.
[01:30:48] Oh, I read it, you know, how many times,
[01:30:50] especially with the adolescents I see.
[01:30:52] Oh, I read an article, I think I have OCD in my mind.
[01:30:54] Like, you don't, let's talk about that.
[01:30:57] Or, oh, I read an article and this is happening to me.
[01:30:59] So I think I might have stomach cancer.
[01:31:03] It's, we'll send you to the doctor
[01:31:05] if you want to have that checked out.
[01:31:06] But let's talk about your,
[01:31:07] that you woke up with a stomach ache.
[01:31:09] Because you have a job interview this afternoon
[01:31:11] that you kind of don't want to go to.
[01:31:14] Let's talk about that instead.
[01:31:16] But no, I looked online, I looked online.
[01:31:17] If you wake up with a stomach ache, it means this.
[01:31:19] Right, so this, whether it's looking up symptoms
[01:31:23] and diagnoses or what this means
[01:31:24] or what other people are doing
[01:31:26] or what other people are saying about
[01:31:27] what other people are doing.
[01:31:29] It's just, it's like it's defined.
[01:31:32] Right, self-diagnosis becomes self-fulfilling prophecy as well.
[01:31:37] Well, and the persons, you know what they're,
[01:31:39] they're out their world outside of social media
[01:31:41] looks like their family, how much they can, you know,
[01:31:43] cross-reference the things that they're seeing on there
[01:31:45] with like a parent who's telling them like,
[01:31:47] let's think about that, let's walk that through.
[01:31:49] Like if depending on how much exposure they have to that,
[01:31:52] outside of that world is gonna make a big difference
[01:31:55] in terms of the impact of being engrossed
[01:31:57] in the social media world.
[01:31:59] Because not all kiddos have a family
[01:32:02] who's willing to talk them through all the things
[01:32:03] that they're seeing on social media,
[01:32:05] help them discern what they read, these sorts of things.
[01:32:07] So definitely a balance outside of that
[01:32:10] is necessary to combat the influence within social media.
[01:32:14] Well, then there's also the part of having things
[01:32:17] just available, right, right now, right now is,
[01:32:20] like I think about when I went growing up,
[01:32:22] like there were no, there were,
[01:32:24] I didn't even, we didn't have an answering machine.
[01:32:26] Like if you wanted to call somebody, you called them
[01:32:28] and if they were there, they would pick up
[01:32:30] and if they weren't, they didn't.
[01:32:31] Like that was it.
[01:32:32] You called them back later.
[01:32:34] There was no texting, there was no this immediacy.
[01:32:38] So thinking about not having that immediate gratification,
[01:32:44] I and people in my generation and people who didn't have access
[01:32:48] to some of these things developed patience
[01:32:51] and tolerance skills.
[01:32:52] Like I could wait, even if I really, really, really
[01:32:54] wanna talk to you.
[01:32:56] Like I can wait and not fall apart.
[01:32:59] I had a client, well, I still see her,
[01:33:01] but when she was younger, her parents are fantastic.
[01:33:05] She is like, the very self-diagnose,
[01:33:08] has no tolerance for delayed gratification or patience
[01:33:13] because everything, right?
[01:33:14] Everything is an immediate answer.
[01:33:15] If I text you and you have not, if I see the dots
[01:33:18] and then you don't get back to me,
[01:33:20] like this kind of thing.
[01:33:22] So she did something and got herself in trouble.
[01:33:25] So her parents took her phone.
[01:33:27] She said, if you take my phone,
[01:33:28] I'm gonna kill myself.
[01:33:30] I can't not have my phone.
[01:33:32] They put her in the car and took her to the emergency room.
[01:33:34] I thought that was the most brilliant thing ever.
[01:33:36] And of course, by the time they walk in,
[01:33:38] she's like, nevermind, I won't kill myself.
[01:33:39] I'll get my phone back whenever you wanna give it to me.
[01:33:43] But it was that instant, like I can't live.
[01:33:46] Like I cannot not have my phone.
[01:33:48] And she has no emotional, like at the time,
[01:33:52] like no emotional management skills.
[01:33:55] How old?
[01:33:56] She was probably 15 or 16 at this point, like old enough.
[01:34:00] But I think about all the parents that would be like,
[01:34:02] oh my, okay, nevermind.
[01:34:04] Yeah.
[01:34:05] Right?
[01:34:06] And so now you just reinforced that if you're upset
[01:34:09] or you don't think you can handle something,
[01:34:11] just I'll make it easy for you so that
[01:34:16] a delay of gratification, managing anxiety,
[01:34:19] tolerating, waiting, and then what do you do?
[01:34:22] Like if I wanna talk to you
[01:34:24] and you're not answering the phone,
[01:34:27] I'm not gonna just like sit there.
[01:34:28] Like right now people sit there,
[01:34:29] or they sit on their phone,
[01:34:31] versus like you go do something to manage your anxiety
[01:34:34] or your distress at not being able to talk to your person.
[01:34:37] Like we, like I grew up with that.
[01:34:40] People nowadays, they're in a lot of ways are lacking
[01:34:45] in those skills of just managing their feelings
[01:34:47] because they don't have to.
[01:34:48] Have you heard the expression left on red?
[01:34:51] Have you ever heard of this?
[01:34:52] Yes.
[01:34:52] So it's when, yeah.
[01:34:53] My kids talk about that.
[01:34:54] So it's when you're,
[01:34:57] I send you a message, Karlyn,
[01:34:59] and I get a thing that says you read it,
[01:35:02] but you don't respond to me.
[01:35:03] So you just left me on, you read it,
[01:35:05] but you don't respond to me.
[01:35:06] Oh my God.
[01:35:07] It's devastating.
[01:35:08] I've heard about it.
[01:35:08] It's catastrophic.
[01:35:09] Yeah, it's a great thing.
[01:35:10] For one, to not get an immediate response
[01:35:12] and then to be left on red is like,
[01:35:13] you might as well have been canceled,
[01:35:14] is the other term.
[01:35:16] So this stuff is gonna impact people.
[01:35:19] I mean, that's an impact psychologically.
[01:35:21] Yes, huge.
[01:35:22] Because we're just expecting everyone
[01:35:24] to maintain connection all the time.
[01:35:27] And soothes me.
[01:35:27] When I'm upset, you need to reply.
[01:35:30] So I don't have anxious feelings.
[01:35:32] And the social media companies
[01:35:34] are creating these things.
[01:35:36] Like TikTok is created to be as addictive
[01:35:38] as possible, as humanly possible.
[01:35:40] So it's immediate gratification 100% of the time.
[01:35:42] It's just like boom, boom, boom, boom, boom.
[01:35:44] And you can't put that thing down.
[01:35:47] This is a nightmare, isn't it?
[01:35:49] Well, and if you see it show up a lot
[01:35:50] in folks coming into work, younger ages
[01:35:52] between 20 to 24, and you refer to a lot
[01:35:56] as like being entitled, right?
[01:35:57] You hear this term entitlement thrown a lot.
[01:35:59] Like this generation is entitled entitlement and such.
[01:36:02] But when you really look at what's going on,
[01:36:05] there's very poor distress tolerance skills.
[01:36:07] Like if there's something I need to wait on
[01:36:09] or I'm waiting for an answer from my manager
[01:36:12] for something or something needs to change.
[01:36:14] It clearly needs to grow in the organization.
[01:36:16] But it's taking some time to work through these things.
[01:36:19] Like there's an immediate sort of narrative
[01:36:22] that something must be wrong,
[01:36:23] that this is a really negative thing.
[01:36:24] People don't care about me or whatever that person goes
[01:36:27] through and their poor distress tolerance.
[01:36:28] And it creates all kinds of issues.
[01:36:30] And then if I can't tolerate it, what do I do?
[01:36:32] I just leave or I check out or stop caring
[01:36:34] about what I'm doing or I can justify misusing
[01:36:38] company resources or not really using my time.
[01:36:40] I mean, there's all kinds of interesting things
[01:36:42] that come from it, but at the core,
[01:36:44] at least I'm not an expert on this at all,
[01:36:46] but it's just some very poor distress tolerance.
[01:36:49] Watching my kids work through some of that stuff
[01:36:51] where if someone didn't reply to them,
[01:36:53] like it felt sort of catastrophic
[01:36:56] and helping them think through like,
[01:36:58] what could possibly be some other options
[01:37:00] as to why someone might not have responded.
[01:37:02] And usually a few days later, it's like,
[01:37:03] oh, it's everything, everything's cool, mom.
[01:37:05] Someone's got their phone taken away.
[01:37:07] So, oh, okay.
[01:37:08] So that's why they didn't respond to you.
[01:37:10] And your kids are freaking out.
[01:37:11] I'm thinking that's the end of the world.
[01:37:12] Something bad is happening for sure.
[01:37:14] Yeah.
[01:37:17] Can we talk through some mental health issues?
[01:37:18] I got, I read through a bunch of these.
[01:37:21] Anxiety disorder, fear and dread.
[01:37:27] What's a cause for that?
[01:37:33] And there's so many potential causes for that.
[01:37:36] But I mean, ultimately it's a state in which you're sort of
[01:37:41] assuming or maybe anticipating
[01:37:44] that something very negative is going to happen, right?
[01:37:47] I have this, I will just use a job interview coming up
[01:37:51] and I really need this job,
[01:37:53] but I'm definitely gonna say something wrong
[01:37:55] and I'm gonna trip out.
[01:37:55] I mean, it's just can sort of roll in that direction
[01:37:59] with a person's thoughts in a lot of ways.
[01:38:01] And then in their body can feel sick,
[01:38:04] sick to my stomach, look like somatic symptoms.
[01:38:06] So people express it in a lot of different ways.
[01:38:08] Some you'll see a lot of thoughts related to it
[01:38:10] that are very sort of negative
[01:38:12] and anticipating something sort of horrible
[01:38:14] is going to happen or not work out well.
[01:38:16] And in some ways for some people it's very physical.
[01:38:18] They're sick all the time,
[01:38:20] we're often getting a cold or these sorts of things.
[01:38:23] So.
[01:38:24] And it's like a chain.
[01:38:25] So job interview, right?
[01:38:28] Well, I don't know, what if I say the wrong thing?
[01:38:29] What if they ask me a question and I don't know?
[01:38:31] Well, what if they don't like me?
[01:38:32] What if I don't get the job?
[01:38:33] What if it's that kind of chaining together?
[01:38:36] So next thing, I might as well just not even,
[01:38:39] I might as well kill myself.
[01:38:41] I mean, it can go in a lot of different ways,
[01:38:44] but this like persistent worry and anticipation
[01:38:51] that is not proportionate to the situation.
[01:38:56] Like it's one thing to have some nervousness.
[01:38:59] I have this big job interview, I really want this job.
[01:39:02] I hope they like me, I'm a little bit,
[01:39:04] my stomach hurts a little bit.
[01:39:05] That's one thing, but that disproportion
[01:39:08] and that chaining together of all of the things
[01:39:11] that could potentially happen.
[01:39:13] So go ahead.
[01:39:14] I was just saying, it's like the difference too between,
[01:39:15] I think most of us experience some level of anxiety
[01:39:18] around things that can actually be really helpful, right?
[01:39:19] Help me to prepare for something.
[01:39:21] But when it gets to the aspect of sort of clinically
[01:39:23] significant, it's interfering in such a way that now,
[01:39:25] I just called out of my job interview
[01:39:27] or I'm choosing not to go or I couldn't,
[01:39:30] I could even bring myself to study
[01:39:32] because I was so anxious about the potential exam
[01:39:34] and so it becomes almost self-sabotaging in some ways
[01:39:39] as we move towards like a clinically significant version
[01:39:41] of that.
[01:39:42] So what is treatment like for someone that's in that zone?
[01:39:46] I haven't been out of my house.
[01:39:47] I didn't get the job, I didn't do go to the job interview.
[01:39:49] I actually haven't even applied for any jobs.
[01:39:51] I'm just getting by on whatever savings I had
[01:39:56] and maybe starting to get some welfare checks
[01:39:58] because I'm just freaked out because,
[01:40:00] so what are you saying to me?
[01:40:02] How do we talk someone through that?
[01:40:06] Well, I mean, a lot of it has to do with,
[01:40:09] well, I know we were talking about this before recording
[01:40:11] that when somebody is that kind of agitated
[01:40:15] and in distress, the front part of your brain,
[01:40:19] the prefrontal cortex, which is the part we use
[01:40:21] for like weighing pros and cons and anticipating outcomes
[01:40:25] and kind of making decisions and thinking things through
[01:40:30] is almost like not available.
[01:40:32] It's almost offline.
[01:40:33] You can think about it like it got knocked offline
[01:40:34] because my nervous system is a wreck.
[01:40:36] So the person really can't make really good decisions
[01:40:40] when they're that kind of escalated.
[01:40:44] So treatment will like undoubtedly, no matter what,
[01:40:47] include helping a person learn skills and techniques
[01:40:51] to like calm their, like literally calm
[01:40:54] their physical body down.
[01:40:56] It doesn't, I always tell people,
[01:40:57] you don't have to be calm.
[01:40:58] That would be lovely, but you don't have to be calm.
[01:41:00] You just have to be calm enough for your brain.
[01:41:03] What are some techniques you're gonna teach somebody?
[01:41:06] It could be like deep breathing techniques,
[01:41:08] meditation, grounding, physical activity
[01:41:12] is really, really helpful for a dysregulated body,
[01:41:15] like walking, running, jumping, swimming, yoga, plot,
[01:41:20] whatever, physical activity,
[01:41:21] because it's a physical manifestation of the anxiety.
[01:41:25] So you gotta get the body to be able to relax enough
[01:41:29] for the brain to come online.
[01:41:31] So now once the brain is more available,
[01:41:33] now we gotta go through all that cognitive distortion,
[01:41:37] this idea that like, if you don't get this job,
[01:41:39] you're a horrible person.
[01:41:40] Like let's talk about how realistic that is.
[01:41:43] Or if you don't get this job,
[01:41:45] it means that you're never gonna get a job
[01:41:47] for the rest of your life.
[01:41:48] Well, let's look at that.
[01:41:49] So cognitive behavioral therapy,
[01:41:51] cognitive techniques will address some of those
[01:41:56] really kind of extreme escalated thoughts.
[01:41:59] So you need both.
[01:42:00] I mean, most mental health and illness issues
[01:42:03] are gonna require both,
[01:42:05] but for anxiety, you really need both,
[01:42:07] the physical and the cognitive.
[01:42:11] As I was reading through this,
[01:42:12] I ended up with these personality disorders
[01:42:14] coming into these different categories.
[01:42:17] Cluster A, Cluster B, and Cluster C.
[01:42:20] Cluster A is just, they had some subtitles here.
[01:42:23] Cluster A was odd.
[01:42:25] Yep, odd.
[01:42:26] Cluster B was dramatic, and Cluster C was anxious.
[01:42:30] And I was like, well, you could kind of like
[01:42:32] the stereotypical categories of people,
[01:42:35] you know, that guy's weird, right?
[01:42:36] That guy's an odd guy.
[01:42:38] Someone that's paranoid.
[01:42:40] Paranoid is one of the things in Cluster A, odd.
[01:42:42] Paranoid always on guard.
[01:42:44] Believe people are trying to harm them.
[01:42:47] Skitsoid, which I didn't really know the definition of,
[01:42:51] skitsoid is people that avoid people and relationships.
[01:42:55] So tell me about paranoid.
[01:42:57] Well, give me a case.
[01:42:58] Let me read you to find out.
[01:42:59] Let me hear a case.
[01:43:00] I wanna hear some case studies of paranoid.
[01:43:02] So funny.
[01:43:03] You know, the black helicopters are out there flying around.
[01:43:07] Well, you said earlier actually about like a person
[01:43:10] who might already be a little bit,
[01:43:12] save me, predisposed to like conspiracy, right?
[01:43:15] So with personality disorders, it's not,
[01:43:20] it's more like a part of your,
[01:43:21] like I can be a shy person,
[01:43:22] which means I'm probably gonna be shy like across the board,
[01:43:25] right, not just in one or two situations.
[01:43:27] So with personality disorders, it's one of those like,
[01:43:30] kind of in most situations you're gonna see.
[01:43:32] So paranoid, it might be not the helicopters are chasing me.
[01:43:36] That's probably you're more in the psychotic,
[01:43:40] psychosis realm there.
[01:43:42] Personality disorders might be just kind of
[01:43:44] a general paranoia like,
[01:43:46] well, you know, every time I go to work,
[01:43:49] I say hi to the girl at the desk and she says,
[01:43:51] and say hi to me, I think she doesn't like me.
[01:43:52] She probably, XYZ, like a leaning or a disposition
[01:43:58] to thinking people don't like me.
[01:44:00] I think people are watching me.
[01:44:02] I think somebody went into my locker
[01:44:03] and took something out, I think.
[01:44:06] I found it at home later that night.
[01:44:07] Like my predisposition is paranoid versus psychosis,
[01:44:13] which is gonna be the helicopters are chasing me
[01:44:15] and the lights are secretly filming me.
[01:44:18] The, I mentioned that thing earlier where I said,
[01:44:22] I told people on my training course, like,
[01:44:24] hey, we're all insane.
[01:44:25] We're all some level of insane
[01:44:26] because reality was different.
[01:44:27] These things are the same too.
[01:44:28] Like everyone's got some level of paranoia
[01:44:31] and you can see it come out of people.
[01:44:32] You know, got that person, I work with leaders a lot
[01:44:35] and you know, a leader that might be like,
[01:44:37] well, I'm never gonna get promoted.
[01:44:38] Oh, why is that?
[01:44:39] Oh, they don't like me.
[01:44:40] Like it's just a level of paranoia.
[01:44:42] That's, and you choose it
[01:44:44] because well, actually you're not getting promoted
[01:44:45] because you failed on your last two projects.
[01:44:48] Has nothing to do with them not liking you.
[01:44:50] You're not performing well.
[01:44:51] But of course for them, it's they don't like me.
[01:44:53] Why don't they like you?
[01:44:54] Well, because I used to work at this other company
[01:44:56] and that guy worked there and they don't like that guy.
[01:44:59] And so therefore they don't like me.
[01:45:00] So like all these things and anxiety, you know, right?
[01:45:03] We talk about, you just mentioned Megan's like,
[01:45:06] a certain level of anxiety is good.
[01:45:07] So it's okay.
[01:45:08] Hey, I'm nervous about this job interview
[01:45:10] because I really wanna get the job.
[01:45:11] So I'm there for research the company.
[01:45:12] I'm gonna be prepared.
[01:45:13] Well, I'm gonna go over some notes.
[01:45:14] I'm gonna be ready.
[01:45:15] That's cool.
[01:45:16] That's great.
[01:45:17] So everyone has some level of these things going on.
[01:45:21] It's just when we start to let them spiral
[01:45:24] and get out of control, that's when we have problems.
[01:45:27] So cluster A were acting a little strange,
[01:45:32] cluster B dramatic, which is this also known
[01:45:37] as teenage years a little bit?
[01:45:40] Oftentimes with some of that, you'll find, you know,
[01:45:42] some form of an attachment disruption
[01:45:44] or something happening during that time period
[01:45:46] that leads to some of this in more adult life
[01:45:49] where we're looking at like a pattern
[01:45:50] of unstable relationships or sort of this real
[01:45:54] or imagined fear of abandonment that leads me
[01:45:57] to sort of be dramatic if that's what you,
[01:45:59] the word you wanna use in relationships
[01:46:01] and such in response to a perception
[01:46:04] that I might be losing you a lot of push, pull,
[01:46:06] these sorts of things.
[01:46:07] But I think we can find often in this group
[01:46:09] that there's some something that happened
[01:46:11] in the attachment that led to this disposition for.
[01:46:14] What kind of thing is happening?
[01:46:16] I mean, it can be a wide variety of things.
[01:46:18] It can be various levels of abuse, sexual abuse,
[01:46:21] physical abuse could be a very misattuned parent
[01:46:24] or maybe not having somebody who could reflect back
[01:46:27] to you at a young age, mirroring sort of like,
[01:46:29] you know, I feel sad or I feel afraid.
[01:46:32] It's sort of normal to feel that way
[01:46:34] instead of like don't feel that way
[01:46:35] or there's something wrong with you for feeling that way.
[01:46:37] And I start to build these beliefs
[01:46:39] where I sort of lose touch with my map
[01:46:42] for like an appropriate emotional response
[01:46:45] to what's happening.
[01:46:47] You can kind of find that disruption.
[01:46:48] And sometimes with when you're looking
[01:46:50] at a personality disorder, something has been so severe
[01:46:53] that now it is part of the personality in some ways.
[01:46:56] And so you can shape it and kind of lose some things
[01:46:59] with the volume of it, but that disposition
[01:47:01] might always be there to be sort of like,
[01:47:04] you know, someone, my friend canceled dinner on me again.
[01:47:08] They must really not like me
[01:47:09] or must not be important to them as opposed to like,
[01:47:11] maybe there's something else going on for them
[01:47:13] as to why they canceled dinner.
[01:47:16] But it really does feel that traumatic to the person.
[01:47:20] And I think that's a really important part of working
[01:47:22] with someone with a personality disorder
[01:47:23] is recognizing that while it might look sort of irrational
[01:47:27] and you're like, what's going on for them,
[01:47:28] it feels very real.
[01:47:29] So this piece of like, how do I calm down the body enough
[01:47:33] to bring the brain online to be able to just consider
[01:47:37] what else might be possible is a super important part
[01:47:40] of helping somebody through that.
[01:47:42] And you can see with time,
[01:47:44] with like an appropriate level of support
[01:47:45] and period of time and multiple reparative experiences
[01:47:48] and relationships where the thing that I feared
[01:47:51] didn't actually happen that some of this
[01:47:53] can calm down a little bit.
[01:47:55] You'll see, especially in what's considered cluster B,
[01:48:01] people who have been adopted,
[01:48:05] given up for adoption early on,
[01:48:07] or in a way that was left them for some period of time
[01:48:11] without kind of a secure, like a parent
[01:48:14] or authority attachment.
[01:48:15] Clients who, like one client who is,
[01:48:21] she's the definition of that was neglected,
[01:48:25] like severely neglected when she was a child.
[01:48:28] So this anxiety of like being left or not being wanted
[01:48:34] or being, like picking somebody other than her,
[01:48:39] like this felt sense of rejection is so profound.
[01:48:42] It almost, it's like her lenses.
[01:48:44] It just, it's like her experience in the world
[01:48:48] with other people is always through this lens of like,
[01:48:51] do you like me?
[01:48:52] Are you gonna pick me?
[01:48:55] Like, am I safe?
[01:48:57] Can I rely on you?
[01:48:58] Can I trust you?
[01:48:59] So these are, that can be rough.
[01:49:01] Is this, one of these things was called
[01:49:03] histrionic, histrionic personality disorder,
[01:49:05] which in one of the categories in there
[01:49:07] was desire to be noticed.
[01:49:10] This is a similar thing where I just want people
[01:49:12] to see that I'm here.
[01:49:13] Well, and you know what I would say,
[01:49:14] I say this a lot clinically too,
[01:49:16] is this idea that like, oh, the person,
[01:49:18] she's like seeking attention.
[01:49:19] She's attention seeking.
[01:49:20] That's very common, right?
[01:49:21] Term that's used.
[01:49:23] And, but often used in like a judgmental,
[01:49:27] judgmental, derogatory way.
[01:49:29] I would say like, oh, they're absolutely seeking attention,
[01:49:32] but not because they're just being like,
[01:49:34] you know, irritating.
[01:49:36] It's something is going on for this person internally
[01:49:38] that they like literally need you to stop
[01:49:41] and like pay attention to me.
[01:49:43] So I can, something inside of me settles down.
[01:49:47] Now this is a huge dysregulation, right?
[01:49:49] So this is where in terms of therapy and treatment comes in
[01:49:52] as helping people learn how to regulate their body
[01:49:55] and like calm some of that agitation down
[01:49:58] and then do all the cognitive work of helping like,
[01:50:02] reality check, like right, kind of sort through some
[01:50:05] of these big extreme thoughts that I have to be like,
[01:50:07] are they really that realistic?
[01:50:09] And then like you have said a couple times,
[01:50:11] Megan, the reparative experiences, like,
[01:50:14] you know, how many times did you think,
[01:50:16] like I have a client who for the longest time,
[01:50:18] she would show up like 15, 20 minutes early to her session
[01:50:23] because she had this idea that what if she's not out there
[01:50:27] at the time of our session and I forget we had a session
[01:50:30] and I leave, which first of all, it would never,
[01:50:32] ever happen in a million years ever.
[01:50:35] But like this was the one who grew up with a lot of neglect,
[01:50:38] grew up with parents saying, oh yeah,
[01:50:40] I'll be home in a few hours and they didn't come home
[01:50:43] or they forgot about her, right?
[01:50:46] So you can see where like the early stuff shaped this,
[01:50:49] but a lot of our work was, it wasn't just like saying,
[01:50:53] hey, we've had 72 sessions and I've been here every time,
[01:50:56] like, isn't that enough?
[01:50:58] That wasn't enough for her.
[01:50:59] Like she needed to really go through the experience
[01:51:02] of not relying on me to be there on time
[01:51:05] so that she felt better.
[01:51:06] She had to learn how to do that for herself.
[01:51:08] It's that external scaffolding versus the internal.
[01:51:11] And was she able to?
[01:51:12] Yeah, totally.
[01:51:13] I still see her.
[01:51:14] She's great.
[01:51:15] You still see her, but she,
[01:51:16] but it's more like just checking in.
[01:51:18] Yeah, and it's more like maintenance.
[01:51:19] I see her once or twice a month.
[01:51:21] I used to see her two, three times a week
[01:51:23] because the level of distress and interference
[01:51:26] in her life, like she couldn't work,
[01:51:28] her relationships were a mess.
[01:51:30] She was on all these medication.
[01:51:32] I mean, she had a really, really messy life
[01:51:35] because this is how she lived it.
[01:51:36] This is how she approached almost every relationship
[01:51:39] she had in her world.
[01:51:41] So now like she's working, she's got kids,
[01:51:43] she's just got back from like,
[01:51:46] Bali or something, I don't know,
[01:51:47] she went with her husband, like her life is great.
[01:51:49] Some things are good.
[01:51:50] So it's a little, it's a little maintenance,
[01:51:52] like kind of maintenance, car maintenance.
[01:51:55] She's getting her, her chin ups, everyone's gone.
[01:51:58] Yeah, it's weird.
[01:51:59] Cause all these things are, everyone listening
[01:52:02] can be like, oh yeah, I,
[01:52:03] I have a little bit of that.
[01:52:04] I have a little bit of that.
[01:52:05] I have a little bit of that.
[01:52:06] I have a little bit of this.
[01:52:06] Well, another one in this category was narcissistic,
[01:52:11] which, you know, when, when we work with leaders,
[01:52:14] you know, a lot of times people that end up
[01:52:15] in leadership positions,
[01:52:16] they end up in leadership positions oftentimes
[01:52:18] because they were stepping up and they thought
[01:52:20] they could do the job.
[01:52:21] And if you can think you can do the job,
[01:52:22] that means you got a little bit of ego working.
[01:52:24] And if you got a little bit of ego working,
[01:52:26] sometimes that ego can start to expand
[01:52:28] beyond your own control and you end up sometimes
[01:52:31] with people that are narcissistic.
[01:52:33] And what does that look like from like a clinical perspective?
[01:52:39] I mean, I think when you,
[01:52:40] you talk about this from like a clinical
[01:52:42] where you're ending up in treatment,
[01:52:43] it, it, it moves into a place where you have,
[01:52:47] you lose sight of, I don't know if empathy is the right word
[01:52:50] or like my impact on other people.
[01:52:52] Like my focus becomes so much on like where I'm at,
[01:52:55] my, my, my vision, whatever I have going on.
[01:52:58] And somehow along the way I lost sight of like
[01:53:00] what I do impacts other people and like my behavior
[01:53:03] has an impact on other people.
[01:53:05] And so that's on the very severe end.
[01:53:06] And I think when you're looking at the actual disorder itself
[01:53:08] that word is thrown around a lot.
[01:53:10] For sure.
[01:53:12] But where we've seen it often really looks like
[01:53:15] this person has becomes significantly self-focused
[01:53:20] and really lose sight of how their behavior
[01:53:22] impacts other people.
[01:53:24] And they just don't care about anybody else.
[01:53:25] It would appear that way.
[01:53:27] I mean, I think what's really happening so much
[01:53:29] is that there's the, the, the ego cannot tolerate
[01:53:33] any sort of feedback that would suggest like, wow,
[01:53:36] I might have hurt someone when I did that.
[01:53:39] Like it, it's just so vulnerable.
[01:53:41] Like it's actually this person, while they might appear
[01:53:43] like it doesn't matter to them, they're actually so sensitive
[01:53:46] and vulnerable that they've built up so many defenses
[01:53:48] in their psyche to not allow for any sort of feedback
[01:53:51] to crack through an idea of like, oh, in fact,
[01:53:53] I could potentially fail.
[01:53:55] Or in fact, like I could, I do have the potential
[01:53:58] to hurt someone.
[01:53:59] It's like, become so distorted in a way
[01:54:01] that they, they can't even see that as a possibility.
[01:54:04] And so then I come across in my behaviors
[01:54:06] in such as very disregarding of others.
[01:54:09] These, a person with a narcissist personality
[01:54:12] is very easily wounded with your words.
[01:54:14] They're not the person that you can give that sort of direct
[01:54:18] feedback to.
[01:54:18] They're so wounded that almost catastrophic
[01:54:21] to the relationship sometimes to be able to give feedback.
[01:54:24] And what you will see as opposed to some of the other
[01:54:28] personalities, like the histrionic borderline
[01:54:32] and they're easily, easily wounded with words,
[01:54:35] very, very sensitive, but you're gonna see somebody
[01:54:37] kind of melt down and cry.
[01:54:39] And oh my gosh, I can't believe you said that to me.
[01:54:41] You know, like kind of collapse a little bit
[01:54:45] with narcissism.
[01:54:46] Lash out.
[01:54:47] Lash out and like cut you off, out, gone.
[01:54:50] Like can, just cannot tolerate.
[01:54:52] Like kind of being challenged.
[01:54:55] Yeah.
[01:54:56] Cluster C, which is, which is anxious.
[01:54:59] This is when you get in the OCD, the obsessive compulsive.
[01:55:03] Let me hear a wild OCD story.
[01:55:05] Oh boy.
[01:55:06] Let's see.
[01:55:07] I don't know if I have a good one to go.
[01:55:12] Well, I, I mean several.
[01:55:15] And I think like we said before, there's,
[01:55:18] people can have like kind of traits and like
[01:55:20] the leanings and inclinations.
[01:55:22] And that's one thing versus it being at a,
[01:55:26] like a clinic clinically significant level
[01:55:28] where you're like your life,
[01:55:29] like you're having a hard time living your life.
[01:55:31] So somebody who's a little bit more extreme might be,
[01:55:38] like OCD might be, say germs, right?
[01:55:40] So they don't, I don't want to touch doorknobs, shake hands,
[01:55:44] use public restrooms.
[01:55:47] How they fare during COVID?
[01:55:49] They loved it.
[01:55:51] Oh, cause they just like, oh.
[01:55:52] Social distancing, I don't have to touch anybody.
[01:55:54] And you have to wear a mask in front of me.
[01:55:57] Sure.
[01:55:57] Yeah.
[01:55:58] Love.
[01:55:59] They were stoked.
[01:56:00] Those are the ones that are going to have a lot harder time,
[01:56:03] socially engaging, taking risks, right?
[01:56:07] Like the idea of like, well, the only restroom here
[01:56:10] is a public room and you gotta go in there or hold it.
[01:56:14] Like, you know, that's going to be very distressing
[01:56:16] for somebody that leans a little bit more.
[01:56:19] Towards obsessions and compulsions.
[01:56:23] What do COVID look like?
[01:56:27] Cause I've done a couple of podcasts about deaths of despair
[01:56:30] during COVID.
[01:56:31] It's a nightmare from your professional perspective.
[01:56:36] How bad was it?
[01:56:37] Oh my gosh.
[01:56:38] I mean, it was significant because I mean, already,
[01:56:41] especially when you're working with very complex psychiatric
[01:56:43] disorders, resources and like access to hospitals and such
[01:56:46] is always sort of an issue for our folks.
[01:56:49] Because, you know, there is certain criteria related to being
[01:56:53] able to get hospital support.
[01:56:54] Somebody has to be very sort of significantly regressed to be
[01:56:58] able to get hospital support if they need that.
[01:57:00] And there oftentimes isn't that level of care that allows for
[01:57:03] that like sort of least restrictive setting in order to
[01:57:06] be able to support them outside of the hospital.
[01:57:09] So that means that in order for me to go and get help,
[01:57:12] I needed to be in really bad shape,
[01:57:14] which means I'm in really bad shape.
[01:57:16] Well, and that's in general for folks with mental health
[01:57:19] and mental health problems.
[01:57:20] You need to be a danger to yourself or others and meet
[01:57:22] criteria like significantly be a danger to yourself or others
[01:57:24] to be able to get that, you know,
[01:57:25] kind of inpatient hospitalization unless you're willing
[01:57:28] to go on your own, which oftentimes when someone is
[01:57:29] in that state they might not be.
[01:57:32] So then with COVID, obviously access to resources and beds
[01:57:35] became significantly less than you have a significant more
[01:57:38] isolation, which is a huge risk factor for our folks.
[01:57:41] Isolation undoubtedly will increase, you know,
[01:57:45] symptoms of psychosis, depression, anxiety,
[01:57:48] you know, when I go inside my head and I have this internal
[01:57:50] side of isolation, a lot can happen.
[01:57:52] And so just being in contact with other people,
[01:57:54] making eye contact with you, these things,
[01:57:56] they're like grounding to the person.
[01:57:57] So all of that is impacted.
[01:57:59] And then how we had to do therapy shifted significantly.
[01:58:02] I mean, we moved from a residential setting where we're
[01:58:04] seeing people in person, we're going to outings together,
[01:58:06] we're meeting in groups together to like,
[01:58:08] now I'm doing over the computer with you with somebody who
[01:58:12] may have some significant psychosis around computer use.
[01:58:14] So they're not even going to get on the camera with you.
[01:58:17] So it just really impacted our ability to provide care
[01:58:20] during that time.
[01:58:20] And people responded, I think, you know,
[01:58:23] I can't speak for all settings, but, you know,
[01:58:26] as best as they could during that time to be able to provide
[01:58:28] services and such and maintain the level of services
[01:58:31] that people needed.
[01:58:33] It was definitely a really difficult time.
[01:58:37] And, you know, telehealth is a super great option.
[01:58:39] It's not the best option for every client, you know,
[01:58:43] that in person is so important.
[01:58:46] And a lot of times for our folks, because a lot of talk therapy
[01:58:49] is very cognitive.
[01:58:50] And if you're working with someone with a cognitive disorder
[01:58:52] or a thought disorder, you know, oftentimes your sessions
[01:58:54] look like going for a walk or baking a pie together
[01:58:59] or like something of that nature that really we couldn't do
[01:59:02] so much during that time.
[01:59:03] Or if we did, it was, you know, an increased risk
[01:59:06] to the person and their health, especially during the time
[01:59:08] of COVID where we didn't really know too much about, right,
[01:59:10] what was happening and all these regulations came in.
[01:59:12] And like, you had to have all this distance
[01:59:14] that couldn't do these things.
[01:59:17] It impacted a lot.
[01:59:20] And I think also seeing, especially for people who are,
[01:59:26] seemed like in that age range, like maybe middle school going
[01:59:29] into high school, like right somewhere in there
[01:59:32] where a lot of social things are happening.
[01:59:34] Like your life is kind of socially driven,
[01:59:36] your friends, access to your friends,
[01:59:37] what everybody else is doing, you're growing up,
[01:59:40] maybe starting to think about college, things like that.
[01:59:42] Where there was this instant, you know, kind of a halt.
[01:59:45] And people were not going to school
[01:59:47] and having to do their classes online
[01:59:48] and not seeing their friends.
[01:59:50] So I saw a lot, especially in the younger population,
[01:59:54] almost like an arrested development of social development.
[01:59:59] So now, like, yeah, my clients who are 2021, 22,
[02:00:03] but you're talking to them and you're like, wow,
[02:00:04] you really sound like 16 or 17 years old right now.
[02:00:07] Like they kind of stalled out in the natural progression.
[02:00:11] I mean, my niece and my nephew,
[02:00:14] one was graduating college and one was graduating high school
[02:00:17] right when COVID happened, so like that May or whatever.
[02:00:20] So like, no graduations, no, you know,
[02:00:25] the pump in circumstance that comes with these milestones
[02:00:29] and rites of passage in life, they didn't have those.
[02:00:33] They seemed to fare okay, but I think about all the folks
[02:00:36] that like, well, what did that mean for their lives
[02:00:39] or the sense of missing out on something important
[02:00:43] and not having had the same opportunities.
[02:00:45] And I saw a lot of anxiety,
[02:00:47] a lot of anxiety, depression, isolation, fear,
[02:00:51] so much fear.
[02:00:52] I actually was on a podcast a couple of weeks ago
[02:00:54] where we were talking about how people,
[02:00:58] like remember when we were able,
[02:01:00] like going to the grocery store,
[02:01:01] like, you know, everyone's like head down
[02:01:03] and you're like not looking at anybody
[02:01:05] and don't get too close to a car.
[02:01:06] Stop making eye contact.
[02:01:07] Like it was very like weird.
[02:01:08] And this like that stayed.
[02:01:11] Like the people weren't like, oh, hey, how's it going?
[02:01:13] Nice to see you haven't seen me in a couple months
[02:01:14] and give you a hug.
[02:01:15] And some people were.
[02:01:16] I was like that for about three days.
[02:01:17] Yeah.
[02:01:18] And I'm like, I'm going to the store.
[02:01:20] Yeah, just get back to me.
[02:01:21] But it is still like that.
[02:01:22] I mean, some of that is still happening.
[02:01:24] So the fear, so when, again,
[02:01:26] going back to that nervous system thing, right?
[02:01:28] So if people's fear is up here
[02:01:30] and I'm constantly on alert and watching and waiting
[02:01:32] and who's wearing their mask and who isn't wearing your,
[02:01:35] not on the dot in the grocery store.
[02:01:37] Like people are not using their brains.
[02:01:40] Like they're not using the part of the brain
[02:01:42] that can be like, okay, it's chill.
[02:01:43] It's cool.
[02:01:44] We're fine.
[02:01:45] We're good.
[02:01:46] Cause you're keyed up all the time.
[02:01:47] I think that is still happening.
[02:01:48] We have not seen the end of the effect of that.
[02:01:50] Well, and those who had a propensity towards anxiety
[02:01:53] prior were struggling through some of that.
[02:01:55] I mean, significant more damage.
[02:01:57] And then you saw it happen when there was the decision
[02:01:59] of could we take the masks on or off
[02:02:01] and those who chose to keep it on
[02:02:02] and those who didn't, you know,
[02:02:03] it was very interesting when you would listen
[02:02:05] to folks perspective on that.
[02:02:06] But oftentimes it felt, especially for some
[02:02:09] of the younger kids, like protective
[02:02:10] to have that over the face in some ways.
[02:02:14] Very interesting impact.
[02:02:16] Man, that's crazy.
[02:02:19] What about addiction?
[02:02:21] And it's funny cause like you can get addicted
[02:02:24] to anything apparently, right?
[02:02:26] Like people get addicted to anything,
[02:02:27] but alcohol, opioids, cocaine, amphetamines,
[02:02:31] hallucinogens, PCP, like people, it's crazy.
[02:02:39] Anything in every, TikTok.
[02:02:40] TikTok.
[02:02:46] Let's jump to PTSD.
[02:02:48] So, you know, obviously in the veteran community,
[02:02:51] PTSD has been a huge news story
[02:02:55] and it's had a really big impact on, you know,
[02:02:58] on a lot of people. Sometimes I think, well,
[02:03:03] some people could actually use that kick
[02:03:06] in the ass that I talked about earlier.
[02:03:07] Like, hey dude, yeah, you saw some bad stuff,
[02:03:10] you lost some friends, but it's time to move on.
[02:03:14] And I think some people need that sort of direction.
[02:03:19] I mean, look, we've been going to wars
[02:03:21] since the beginning of mankind.
[02:03:22] I mean, and you know, you look at the other wars
[02:03:26] that we've been through in America, World War I,
[02:03:29] World War II, Korea, Vietnam,
[02:03:30] these were incredibly horrific wars, as all wars are.
[02:03:37] When you guys look at PTSD,
[02:03:41] what do you think from like a national perspective
[02:03:46] of where it's at, how it's being handled,
[02:03:50] do you think it's being handled the right way?
[02:03:52] What could we do better?
[02:03:53] I mean, you were out there freaking with a,
[02:03:57] in a fox hole with a pistol and a scorpion.
[02:03:59] You're scarred from that.
[02:04:03] I should write a book, that's the book title right there.
[02:04:05] I mean, I'm definitely not a public health expert.
[02:04:09] I don't have the national kind of response to some of this.
[02:04:12] I mean, what I'll say in my private practice,
[02:04:14] specifically to veterans is that whether sort of real
[02:04:19] or imagined, the military armed forces in general
[02:04:21] is doing a lot to try to address providing resources,
[02:04:25] early intervention, when traumatic events occur,
[02:04:29] having people on site who are trained
[02:04:31] to be able to help support.
[02:04:32] I mean, there's a lot that's happening.
[02:04:34] But stigma, the notion of stigma is still very present
[02:04:38] with regard to what it means to have mental health issues.
[02:04:41] And so I often have both active duty and veterans find me
[02:04:44] in my private practice, knowing that I was previous military,
[02:04:49] I think they feel a draw to me in that way
[02:04:50] in that history that I'm a safe person.
[02:04:52] Coming to me, because it doesn't, in that environment,
[02:04:57] feel safe just yet to be able to talk openly
[02:05:00] about what's going on for me.
[02:05:02] Because of, I mean, I think there's two really primary themes
[02:05:06] which look like privacy.
[02:05:08] Like will what I have to share stay private to me?
[02:05:11] Or if I talk about this, will my medical officer then know?
[02:05:14] And now my CO knows.
[02:05:15] And now if somebody's having a talk with me
[02:05:17] about something I shared, or this notion of retaliation
[02:05:22] in some ways, because somebody heard a story from somebody
[02:05:25] that they told someone they had depression,
[02:05:27] they were put on antidepressant, and now they took my wings,
[02:05:29] which is like my whole identity.
[02:05:31] So whether these things are actually happening,
[02:05:33] it's still very much so part of the culture or suggestion
[02:05:36] of like, is it safe to talk about these things?
[02:05:39] And so I think from that perspective,
[02:05:43] in terms of what we can do is it's
[02:05:45] amazing all of the resources that
[02:05:48] are being created and opportunities.
[02:05:49] I just recently read about like it's
[02:05:51] referred to as the sprint team.
[02:05:52] But it's essential.
[02:05:53] It's a special psychiatric unit as part of the armed forces
[02:05:56] where they come on site in response to like a trauma or something.
[02:05:59] It's very awesome.
[02:06:00] But engagement in the resources is still
[02:06:02] a really important factor, especially for veterans who
[02:06:05] disengage from like use of VHA services or anything
[02:06:08] like that.
[02:06:09] So like getting people to engage.
[02:06:11] And like, what we know about engagement in general
[02:06:14] is that like that initial response to someone's willingness,
[02:06:17] and we talked about this earlier, to disclose or talk
[02:06:20] about what's going on for them is critical,
[02:06:23] because it's going to shape whether or not
[02:06:24] they feel they can do that.
[02:06:27] And so I think engagement is huge,
[02:06:29] both in the active duty and veteran realm.
[02:06:31] And what we see with a lot of veterans
[02:06:33] and why they usually end up finding me in private practice,
[02:06:36] not part of their insurance or anything like that,
[02:06:38] is the privacy factor.
[02:06:39] But also, when you're separating from the military,
[02:06:44] part of your access to resources and disability
[02:06:47] and these sorts of things is directly connected
[02:06:49] to your service record, what was disclosed
[02:06:51] while you were in the military.
[02:06:52] And so if I'm in a culture, real or imagined, or in my mind,
[02:06:56] I feel like this is not a place where
[02:06:58] I can talk about these things.
[02:06:59] So I've chosen not to.
[02:07:00] I sort of white knuckle did.
[02:07:01] I've gotten through.
[02:07:02] I haven't shared a whole lot.
[02:07:03] Here I am as a veteran, looking towards trying
[02:07:06] to get some services or disability,
[02:07:08] or maybe now I'm realizing I'm no longer
[02:07:10] in the structure of that military environment.
[02:07:13] And so all this stuff is coming up for me
[02:07:15] that may be the structure of that environment sort of kept
[02:07:17] at bay.
[02:07:19] And I'm being told, well, there's nothing here
[02:07:21] to suggest in your record that anything significant happened
[02:07:24] to you.
[02:07:25] So you have to kind of convince me in some ways
[02:07:28] as to why you should get this disability percentage
[02:07:31] or why you should be treated for these.
[02:07:33] And the way it's looked at is based on PTSD,
[02:07:35] or everything is broken down in parts.
[02:07:39] Your back is one part.
[02:07:40] Your PTSD, your mental health is one part.
[02:07:42] Your arm is one part of that.
[02:07:44] And they're all looked at differently in that way.
[02:07:46] And so it puts a veteran in a position
[02:07:47] where they have to sort of now prove in some ways
[02:07:51] that they are deserving of this disability.
[02:07:53] It can be very retraumatizing for someone
[02:07:55] who's maybe never shared about something that happened
[02:07:57] in the sexual assault or something that happened to me
[02:08:00] while I was deployed or something that's sort of embarrassing,
[02:08:02] or I hold a lot of shame about because I haven't really
[02:08:04] dealt with now I'm in this position where I have to sort
[02:08:06] of recount all this.
[02:08:07] I have to get these character references for these things
[02:08:10] that happen to sort of prove that I'm worthy of this disability,
[02:08:13] which then opens me up to these resources in some ways.
[02:08:16] And so that part, what we can do sort of like as a leader
[02:08:22] in an initial response to somebody,
[02:08:24] say they're coming to tell us something that's going on,
[02:08:27] how we react in that moment is huge because it's
[02:08:29] going to set the precedent for whether or not
[02:08:31] that person is going to reengage should something be going on
[02:08:34] for them or if it's a safe place to talk about the things that
[02:08:36] are going on.
[02:08:37] So to answer your question a long way around,
[02:08:39] I don't know about nationally what
[02:08:41] we're doing if it's the right thing to do,
[02:08:43] but I do know engagement and all of the resources
[02:08:45] that are being put out there is still an issue.
[02:08:48] And I read something from the Navy,
[02:08:52] like it was like a 2021 study around veteran suicide rates
[02:08:55] and all of these different things.
[02:08:57] And the suicide rate daily for those individuals
[02:08:59] who were engaged with the BHA was less than those who were not.
[02:09:04] So engagement is a really important factor
[02:09:08] in how do we keep people doing that.
[02:09:10] Well, I think making sure that we understand
[02:09:12] how important privacy is to someone
[02:09:15] who's dealing with something like this
[02:09:17] and the fear of retaliation.
[02:09:20] Like, will you take something that's important to me?
[02:09:22] Will you take my wings?
[02:09:23] Like, will you know that these are people's full identity?
[02:09:27] Will I lose my status by spot as part of this group
[02:09:31] that I've been so connected to?
[02:09:34] I see this a lot in folks coming through
[02:09:36] and special operations or things like that.
[02:09:39] Like, they're more likely to seek services,
[02:09:42] in my experience, outside of the military,
[02:09:46] out of fear of those two things.
[02:09:48] Yeah.
[02:09:49] I got...
[02:09:52] I being aware of what's going on in the world
[02:09:55] is such an advantage.
[02:09:57] And my basic example of that is if you came to my house
[02:10:01] and I said, hey, I'm gonna scare you
[02:10:04] when you walk down the hallway.
[02:10:06] And then you walk down the hallway
[02:10:07] and I jumped out and said, boo, you wouldn't be scared at all.
[02:10:09] If I didn't tell you that
[02:10:11] and you came walking down my house
[02:10:12] and I jumped out of the doorway and screamed at you,
[02:10:15] you'd be scared, because that's what would happen.
[02:10:17] So being aware of what's going on
[02:10:19] just makes you so much more prepared for it.
[02:10:20] So I realized, working with fighters and being in combat,
[02:10:27] you'd see like a new guy that was on his first deployment
[02:10:30] and you'd see him before an operation
[02:10:32] and you'd see he's really nervous.
[02:10:35] And maybe feels like a little bit sick to his stomach.
[02:10:38] He's gone to the bathroom four times in the last 20 minutes
[02:10:40] and you're like, oh yeah, he's got a little bit of that,
[02:10:42] a little bit of those nerves going.
[02:10:44] And you say something to him like, hey man,
[02:10:46] that's the fourth time you go to the bathroom.
[02:10:48] Are you all right?
[02:10:49] They're like, I'm fine.
[02:10:50] And you're like, hey, dude, it's fine.
[02:10:51] Like you're nervous, you might get killed.
[02:10:54] It's no big deal to be a little bit nervous.
[02:10:56] And I go, oh, okay.
[02:10:58] Okay, it's okay.
[02:10:59] It's okay that you're nervous.
[02:11:00] You should be nervous.
[02:11:01] If you're not nervous, there's something wrong with you.
[02:11:03] And then, so I took that and I actually used it
[02:11:05] when I was training mixed martial arts fighters
[02:11:08] because the same thing would happen.
[02:11:10] They'd be going the night of the UFC
[02:11:13] or a few hours before they're all nervous.
[02:11:15] You could see that they're nervous,
[02:11:17] but they don't know what it is.
[02:11:18] They don't know why they feel sick.
[02:11:20] So they think there's something wrong with them.
[02:11:21] So now they're freaking out.
[02:11:23] So you go, oh, hey, you just went to the bathroom
[02:11:25] for the ninth time in the last half an hour.
[02:11:27] You're feeling a little nervous and they go,
[02:11:29] no, I don't know what's wrong with me.
[02:11:30] Hey, what's wrong with you
[02:11:31] is you're getting ready to go into combat.
[02:11:33] You're getting ready to take some chances.
[02:11:34] And that's your body getting ready,
[02:11:37] getting rid of all the stuff it doesn't need right now
[02:11:39] so it can focus on fighting.
[02:11:40] This is good.
[02:11:42] And they think, oh, okay.
[02:11:44] So that's what normal is.
[02:11:45] It's okay to feel like that.
[02:11:47] I had a guy on my podcast named Tom Fife
[02:11:50] who was in World War II Korea in Vietnam
[02:11:52] and he got a purple heart in World War II Korea in Vietnam.
[02:11:56] And I was asking him,
[02:11:58] he was a battalion commander in Vietnam.
[02:12:00] And so this was, it had been 55 or 60 years
[02:12:03] since he was in Vietnam.
[02:12:05] And I was asking him about what type of operations
[02:12:09] they were doing and then I started asking him
[02:12:11] about what kind of casualties he took in his battalion.
[02:12:16] And as he started to address that,
[02:12:19] he started getting choked up talking about it.
[02:12:23] And I remember I'm sitting there thinking
[02:12:25] it's been 60 years for this guy
[02:12:28] and he was a battalion commander and he lost guys
[02:12:30] and he still gets choked up about it.
[02:12:32] And because that'll happen to me.
[02:12:34] I'll be talking to someone about some of the guys
[02:12:35] that I lost and I'll get choked up.
[02:12:37] And I said to myself, oh, this is just the way it is.
[02:12:39] And it's normal and it's okay.
[02:12:42] And I think that's a huge part that we missed out on
[02:12:47] and that we have missed out on is someone going,
[02:12:50] oh, I'm sad, there must be something wrong with me.
[02:12:55] And it's like, no, you're sad, you lost your friend.
[02:12:58] And you lost your friend and now you feel sad
[02:13:00] and that's what you're gonna feel like.
[02:13:02] And over time it'll dissipate a little bit
[02:13:04] and then it might come back.
[02:13:05] You know, it's another thing that I talked about.
[02:13:09] I talked about losing people and what you go through
[02:13:11] and what, and I went through this big dramatic description
[02:13:16] of being caught in a storm.
[02:13:19] And when you lose someone, when one of your friends dies,
[02:13:23] you're gonna be hit with emotions that you can't control.
[02:13:26] And we as adults, we're not used to not being able
[02:13:29] to control emotions anymore.
[02:13:31] That happens when you're five years old.
[02:13:33] It shouldn't happen when I'm 40.
[02:13:35] So my friend dies, all of a sudden I get hit
[02:13:37] with these emotions, I'm not in control anymore
[02:13:39] and I don't like that feeling
[02:13:41] and I think there must be something wrong with me.
[02:13:42] It's like, no, actually, this is what's normal.
[02:13:45] You're gonna get hit with these emotions, but guess what?
[02:13:46] Eventually those waves of emotions will go away
[02:13:51] and you'll have a break.
[02:13:54] Okay, so then you think, okay, well then I'm fine.
[02:13:56] But then you get hit randomly.
[02:13:57] You see something, you hear a song,
[02:13:59] you smell something, you drive by whatever restaurant
[02:14:01] and you get hit with that emotion again.
[02:14:03] You don't notice this, but it's not quite as strong.
[02:14:06] And there's been a little space and over time,
[02:14:08] the strength of the emotional waves starts to lessen.
[02:14:13] And this is what I learned this for myself
[02:14:15] because I experienced it a bunch of times.
[02:14:18] And by the sixth or seventh or eighth time,
[02:14:20] I was saying, oh yeah, this is that emotion
[02:14:22] that I'm gonna feel right now
[02:14:23] and I don't can't control it
[02:14:24] and I'm gonna sit here and cry
[02:14:26] and then I'm gonna stop and then 20 minutes later
[02:14:28] I'm gonna be laughing and that'll seem fine.
[02:14:31] It'll seem like I'm okay, but then a week later
[02:14:33] I'll get hit with this other emotion again with a sadness
[02:14:35] and it'll knock me down,
[02:14:38] but it's gonna lessen over time and it's gonna dissipate.
[02:14:42] So I think a lot of this is people don't understand
[02:14:47] what's normal and I think that everything I just said
[02:14:49] is totally normal.
[02:14:50] And now that I've told that to a bunch of people,
[02:14:51] yeah, this is what you're gonna feel,
[02:14:52] they've been like, that's exactly what I felt.
[02:14:54] And so getting the word out about, yeah, oh yeah,
[02:14:58] you're gonna feel sad.
[02:14:59] This doesn't mean you're depressed,
[02:15:00] it means you're sad, your friend died.
[02:15:02] Like that's a horrible thing,
[02:15:04] but it's okay to feel sad and it's okay
[02:15:08] and in a little while it'll dissipate.
[02:15:10] That's another thing people get caught up in is,
[02:15:13] oh, the strong emotions that I had are now dissipating.
[02:15:17] I must be, I didn't really care about them
[02:15:20] or I'm a bad person,
[02:15:23] no, you're just processing it
[02:15:25] and you're moving through this thing.
[02:15:27] So I think a lot of just the,
[02:15:31] you know, what you were talking about earlier,
[02:15:33] Karlyn, of just not talking about things
[02:15:37] and I've been very lucky.
[02:15:38] And this is another thing I noticed about loss
[02:15:41] is when I would lose one of my friends,
[02:15:43] oftentimes I would be the person that would be giving
[02:15:47] a speech or one of the people that would be writing down
[02:15:51] my feelings about the situation,
[02:15:53] about who this person was,
[02:15:54] about what they meant to me,
[02:15:56] about how awesome they were.
[02:15:57] I'd have to go through that drill, mandatory,
[02:16:00] because you're gonna get up and you're gonna talk,
[02:16:01] you're gonna give a eulogy
[02:16:02] or one of the eulogies at someone's funeral,
[02:16:05] someone's memorial service.
[02:16:06] So that's what you're doing.
[02:16:08] What a cathartic thing that turned out to be.
[02:16:11] Then I end up, when I get out of the Navy,
[02:16:14] I end up writing books and oftentimes
[02:16:16] these things are addressed in the books.
[02:16:18] And being on this podcast or going out and speaking to
[02:16:21] groups of people, guess what I'm doing?
[02:16:22] I'm telling a story over and over again.
[02:16:26] The same story about the same situation.
[02:16:29] And each time you tell it, you go,
[02:16:32] okay, you process it and it moves you further
[02:16:35] down that road and it helps you detach from it,
[02:16:37] not in a bad way, but in a good way,
[02:16:40] where you can be truly appreciative of the friend
[02:16:42] that you lost and say, yeah, it's horrible.
[02:16:46] But guess what, I had some good times,
[02:16:47] we had some great times, we had some incredible times.
[02:16:49] And I'm gonna live a good life and not forget about them,
[02:16:53] but I'm not gonna dwell on the fact that they died.
[02:16:55] And by the way, guess what that means?
[02:16:56] That means I'm gonna die too.
[02:16:58] And everyone I know is gonna die.
[02:17:02] And I can't get caught up and dwell on that fact for so long.
[02:17:07] So it seems like those are the kind of things
[02:17:09] that I think we could do better is letting people understand
[02:17:14] what they're going through,
[02:17:14] letting them understand that it's normal, it's normal.
[02:17:19] It's normal to be like, oh yeah, what's wrong with Jocko?
[02:17:21] He just heard a song and he's gonna go over there
[02:17:23] and cry for like eight minutes.
[02:17:25] And just then he's gonna be okay.
[02:17:27] And Jocko is not embarrassed by it.
[02:17:29] It's like, oh yeah, this song freaking
[02:17:31] bums me out sometimes.
[02:17:33] Okay, well, that's not abnormal.
[02:17:36] You lost one of your best friends.
[02:17:38] Okay, well, it's gonna be sad sometimes.
[02:17:40] And I think that's one thing that we can do better
[02:17:44] and I try and do that as much as I can
[02:17:46] when we talk about these things on this podcast.
[02:17:49] But it also sounds like that's the kind of thing
[02:17:51] that you all would do with people
[02:17:54] as you talk them through issues
[02:17:56] that they've gone through in your life.
[02:17:57] Am I accurate?
[02:17:58] Absolutely, well, and to speak to the example
[02:18:01] you gave with the gentleman you noticed
[02:18:03] he was going to the bathroom.
[02:18:04] I mean, you also saw him.
[02:18:05] Like you saw him.
[02:18:07] You saw he was struggling through something.
[02:18:09] You chose to engage, you chose to interact.
[02:18:11] And I think that that, you know,
[02:18:12] not just from the encouragement or the cognitive part
[02:18:15] of the conversation, but to see people,
[02:18:16] to notice them is huge because, you know,
[02:18:20] that could have gone completely unnoticed
[02:18:21] and in his mind he could have created
[02:18:23] a whole different narrative about everybody else
[02:18:25] seems to be fine and they're doing okay
[02:18:26] and they've got it together.
[02:18:27] Isn't there a bunch of seals?
[02:18:28] They're all acting like they're fine.
[02:18:29] And I'm different in some ways, you know.
[02:18:32] So to see that person to make that eye contact.
[02:18:34] Yeah, like I must be a coward.
[02:18:35] That's the scary thing.
[02:18:36] Like I must be a coward.
[02:18:37] Oh my gosh, why is everyone walking around like a badass?
[02:18:40] And I'm sitting here like a coward.
[02:18:42] Yep, and in the absence of the communication
[02:18:43] or in the attunement that you gave him,
[02:18:45] like all kinds of things can happen.
[02:18:47] So that's huge.
[02:18:49] Yeah, and I think with, especially in the treatment world
[02:18:53] and at a new for sure, a lot of our clients come in.
[02:18:57] The ones who have been in the system for a bit,
[02:19:01] this is like not their first rodeo.
[02:19:03] There is that identity that has almost been adopted
[02:19:06] a lot of the times, like I'm schizophrenic.
[02:19:09] So I need to take these pills.
[02:19:11] Curse.
[02:19:12] Yeah, I'm cursed.
[02:19:13] I need to take these pills.
[02:19:14] What, why are you taking them?
[02:19:16] I don't know, it's just what they give me.
[02:19:18] Right, there's this kind of,
[02:19:21] when will my symptoms go away?
[02:19:22] Right, this lack of what you're talking about is like,
[02:19:26] it's totally normal that that's happening today.
[02:19:28] I get yesterday you felt great
[02:19:29] and today you woke up thinking these things
[02:19:32] that you weren't thinking yesterday.
[02:19:35] Yes, we're gonna move and march toward
[02:19:38] look, what can we do about it?
[02:19:39] What can we do to help you feel better?
[02:19:41] Sometimes it's just going and having your cry over there
[02:19:43] and then come back on over, totally fine.
[02:19:45] But the idea of validating is what you're talking about.
[02:19:48] It's like, yep, that's happening.
[02:19:50] I get it and it sucks today
[02:19:52] and it may even suck tomorrow.
[02:19:53] You have schizophrenia.
[02:19:55] This might be something that you deal with
[02:19:57] on and off your entire life,
[02:19:58] but by doing these things, having it normalized,
[02:20:02] people being seen, people supporting versus,
[02:20:07] why are you doing that?
[02:20:08] Over time, it gets less and less.
[02:20:10] Yeah, that's what I was gonna say,
[02:20:12] but the little kid that asked me,
[02:20:13] like I feel like I'm alone.
[02:20:15] Yeah, you're gonna feel alone.
[02:20:17] That's totally normal.
[02:20:17] Sometimes you're gonna be alone.
[02:20:18] Like that's gonna happen.
[02:20:20] And when you're a teenager and you don't get invited
[02:20:23] to the party, you're gonna be bummed out.
[02:20:26] That's just normal.
[02:20:27] That's just like, oh, and when you're a teenager
[02:20:29] and your boyfriend or your girlfriend dumps you,
[02:20:32] yeah, you're gonna feel sad.
[02:20:33] And that's just the way you feel.
[02:20:34] And in a little while, you won't even remember
[02:20:36] that person was and you'll carry on with the rest of your life.
[02:20:37] So being aware of what's going on in these peaks
[02:20:42] and valleys of life, knowing that they're there,
[02:20:46] is such a positive thing.
[02:20:48] And a lot of times, and I guess,
[02:20:50] especially going back to social media,
[02:20:51] it's like, oh, if all I see on social media
[02:20:53] is everyone smiling and happy and looks,
[02:20:55] you know, like they're doing some awesome thing
[02:20:57] and I'm sitting at home in my room alone.
[02:21:00] Like, that's life.
[02:21:02] You're gonna be alone.
[02:21:03] You're gonna get dumped.
[02:21:04] You're not gonna get invited to the cool guy party
[02:21:07] and all these things are gonna happen
[02:21:08] and they're totally normal and you'll get through them
[02:21:11] and they're not gonna be fun, but that's the way it is.
[02:21:15] We get a lot of people that don't even recognize
[02:21:20] that this is the way life is.
[02:21:22] Well, actually, we were just talking the other day.
[02:21:24] You know, my friend, Jordan Peterson,
[02:21:27] will say life is suffering, right?
[02:21:29] And it's like a religious context.
[02:21:31] The Buddha says life is suffering.
[02:21:32] And I was like, yeah, you know, I get it.
[02:21:35] That's a good way, it's a good thing to know.
[02:21:37] It's a good thing to know that in life, there is suffering.
[02:21:42] Right?
[02:21:42] But you don't have to go and say life,
[02:21:44] all of life is suffering.
[02:21:46] There's gonna be some valleys, you know?
[02:21:48] There's gonna be some darkness.
[02:21:49] We get it, but it's not all of life.
[02:21:52] And you're gonna come out of that.
[02:21:54] You're gonna see some light.
[02:21:55] You're gonna have some fun.
[02:21:56] But then you're gonna get sucked down
[02:21:59] into some darkness again.
[02:22:00] And that's what I think people don't,
[02:22:03] or what I think people need to understand
[02:22:04] is there's a cycle to life.
[02:22:06] And you're gonna have some good
[02:22:07] and you're gonna have some bad.
[02:22:08] And that's the same with everybody.
[02:22:09] No one is just basking in the sun
[02:22:14] and the warmth for their whole life,
[02:22:16] unless you're only looking at them on Instagram,
[02:22:18] in which case they're doing it
[02:22:19] and they're doing it in a G-string bikini.
[02:22:21] That's the way they're doing it.
[02:22:23] That's true.
[02:22:24] And with PTSD, a lot of other things too.
[02:22:27] A lot of other conditions or diagnosis.
[02:22:30] I mean, I've heard this so many times,
[02:22:31] we definitely hear it at the treatment center
[02:22:33] for people who've been maybe in an illness
[02:22:36] for a lot longer.
[02:22:36] So when is this gonna go away?
[02:22:38] When am I gonna not have this anymore?
[02:22:40] And this idea of like, it may not,
[02:22:42] kind of like with trauma, right?
[02:22:43] Every time you remember that buddy or hear that song,
[02:22:46] you're gonna have a little something show up.
[02:22:48] And yeah, is it less than before?
[02:22:51] Sure, but like your whole life,
[02:22:54] every time you hear that song,
[02:22:55] you might feel a little something going on there
[02:22:57] and that's okay.
[02:22:57] Like it's totally normal.
[02:22:59] I feel that when I hear the star-spangled banner.
[02:23:01] Yes, every time.
[02:23:02] Like when I hear the star-spangled banner,
[02:23:04] if I'm not careful, I'll get like super emotional.
[02:23:08] From the start.
[02:23:09] And that's a song that you hear a lot, right?
[02:23:10] All the time.
[02:23:11] I mean, you heard every sporting event.
[02:23:12] So yeah, and here's the thing.
[02:23:15] I guess in my own narcissistic mind,
[02:23:17] I've thought, hey, that's normal and that's okay.
[02:23:20] It's okay, it's okay to feel like that.
[02:23:22] This is the way things go.
[02:23:23] Where you mentioned, quickly there, you mentioned drugs.
[02:23:28] And I just had a friend of mine on the podcast
[02:23:31] who by the time he went and sought help
[02:23:35] in the Navy, he was in the SEAL teams,
[02:23:37] by the time he went and sought help,
[02:23:39] he got immediately prescribed something.
[02:23:41] By the time he got out a year or two later,
[02:23:43] he was on seven different drugs.
[02:23:50] You know, this one to get you amped up for the day,
[02:23:55] this one to keep you level-headed,
[02:23:57] this one to put you to sleep at night,
[02:23:58] is like they're all counter to each other.
[02:24:01] And just a disaster.
[02:24:05] At what point, where do these drugs come into play?
[02:24:08] Now, he and I both acknowledged,
[02:24:11] and again, this is something that I know
[02:24:12] from talking and reading, is absolutely,
[02:24:16] there's times like, oh, this person needs
[02:24:18] this specific drug to help them get through the situation.
[02:24:23] Where do you all think these drugs come into play
[02:24:26] and what do we need to be careful of?
[02:24:29] Yeah, I mean, I'm not a psychiatrist,
[02:24:31] so it's hard to speak to that part.
[02:24:33] But generally when somebody's coming in
[02:24:35] on a bunch of different medications,
[02:24:37] you know, there's a conversation about like,
[02:24:39] do you know what you're taking?
[02:24:41] Oftentimes with folks with complex psychiatric disorders,
[02:24:43] they don't.
[02:24:45] It's just, this is what I was told to take.
[02:24:46] You know, what it's treating,
[02:24:48] how do you know that it's helping you
[02:24:50] and really starting to discern that?
[02:24:52] Because I mean, I think we, you know,
[02:24:55] and this, my opinion in some ways,
[02:24:57] been in a culture of sort of instant gratification
[02:24:59] or seeking something outside of myself to soothe.
[02:25:01] You know, there's a lot of benefit
[02:25:03] to various psychiatric medications.
[02:25:05] They can really help stabilize someone in a place
[02:25:08] where without otherwise,
[02:25:09] they might not be able to receive some of that treatment.
[02:25:12] And at some point, assessing like,
[02:25:14] why I use this, I think is really important, right?
[02:25:17] Do I use it because I think it's gonna fix
[02:25:19] or take this thing away?
[02:25:20] I think this would apply to not just a prescription drug,
[02:25:22] but any kind of substance.
[02:25:23] You know, why do I drink?
[02:25:25] Do I do because, you know,
[02:25:26] I enjoy a glass of wine at night or whatever it may be,
[02:25:28] or do I drink to alter my mood?
[02:25:30] Do I change this to alter my mood in a way
[02:25:32] because I don't feel like I can do this independently
[02:25:34] or on my own.
[02:25:35] So I think assessing why someone is using
[02:25:38] the various amount of things
[02:25:39] and their understanding of it.
[02:25:40] And, you know, one of the things,
[02:25:42] the benefits of being able to do a long-term treatment
[02:25:44] in a structured environment is it gives us an opportunity
[02:25:47] to sort of unpack some of these things, obviously,
[02:25:50] with the support of a psychiatrist and somebody,
[02:25:52] you know, who's medical overseeing their care,
[02:25:54] to see, you know, what, in fact,
[02:25:57] is this actually treating at this point?
[02:25:59] Is it helpful?
[02:26:00] And if it is, great.
[02:26:03] But also too, does it take us out of the role
[02:26:05] of like the work?
[02:26:06] Because, you know, therapy is hard work.
[02:26:08] Like people who I think therapy is a soft place to come
[02:26:11] at whatever, therapy is hard work.
[02:26:12] Someone who commits to therapy
[02:26:14] is really willing to do some work.
[02:26:16] I mean, unless you're in a place
[02:26:16] where somebody's just like buttering you up
[02:26:18] and giving you compliments all day long,
[02:26:19] but when you come to do therapy,
[02:26:20] you come to do work, especially
[02:26:22] in a residential treatment center,
[02:26:23] you're not just receiving all these things.
[02:26:26] But medications often is this notion of like,
[02:26:27] I'm just taking this thing,
[02:26:29] but there's no, it's very different
[02:26:32] than the amount of effort that's involved
[02:26:35] in walking through a very difficult situation
[02:26:37] or if I'm afraid of something in particular
[02:26:39] I haven't gone to address some of this unresolved grief
[02:26:43] or, you know, whatever it might be,
[02:26:45] you know, engaging in that behavior is very difficult.
[02:26:47] It's gonna bring up a lot of feelings
[02:26:51] and walking through that can be incredibly healing.
[02:26:54] A very different approach than if I'm choosing
[02:26:56] to just take something to get rid of something.
[02:26:59] Well, I think there's like an agency thing,
[02:27:01] which I think shows up in a lot of your work.
[02:27:03] I mean, even just what you've shared today
[02:27:05] is people say like, oh, I'm feeling so much,
[02:27:08] I'm gonna call my esophageal,
[02:27:09] so I'm gonna call the doctor.
[02:27:10] I need something for this.
[02:27:13] Is very external, one instant gratification,
[02:27:16] but also this, whether the person's aware of it or not,
[02:27:19] this idea that like, I don't believe
[02:27:21] in my ability to manage myself.
[02:27:23] I need you to give me something to feel better.
[02:27:26] And a lot of the longer term work in therapy,
[02:27:29] definitely in our program, because it's so,
[02:27:31] it's longer term, is this idea of helping people
[02:27:35] internalize agency versus just rely on external things
[02:27:38] to like make them be okay.
[02:27:40] You know, that seems like a basic principle
[02:27:42] of success in life.
[02:27:43] But you'd be amazed with people
[02:27:45] with some of these complex psychiatric diagnoses
[02:27:48] that the sense of personal agency is so low,
[02:27:53] whether it's like, I just take these pills
[02:27:54] because my psychiatrist says I'm supposed to
[02:27:56] or my mom says I need to,
[02:27:58] versus like, do you know what are you taking?
[02:28:01] Or having conversation with your doctor
[02:28:02] about side effects or whatever.
[02:28:05] But the sense of, I don't have what it takes
[02:28:09] to manage myself and my situation and the demands of life.
[02:28:14] So I need- That's a horrible mindset.
[02:28:16] Horrible, and it's very, very common
[02:28:18] with mental illness.
[02:28:20] And I mentioned, I talked about SSRIs
[02:28:24] on some other podcast and I read through the comments
[02:28:29] and there was definitely some people that were like,
[02:28:30] hey, these things really helped me.
[02:28:32] And there was, of course, you're gonna get that side
[02:28:35] and you of course got the side of like,
[02:28:37] oh, that stuff was a disaster for me.
[02:28:40] The side effects, when you read the side effects,
[02:28:42] you're like, oh my God, you know,
[02:28:44] like emotional, blunting, violence, bipolar,
[02:28:46] switch, suicide risk from the medicine that you're taking.
[02:28:49] So there's definite risks need to,
[02:28:52] that needs to be paid attention to.
[02:28:56] The other side of the spectrum, as far as I'm concerned,
[02:29:00] is something that you already mentioned, Karlin.
[02:29:04] What about just like a sleep, diet, and exercise?
[02:29:08] How often are we blowing that?
[02:29:13] Often.
[02:29:14] Often.
[02:29:14] Often.
[02:29:15] I mean, it is amazing when we bring folks
[02:29:18] into the program, we try and set aside
[02:29:20] like kind of the first month, give or take,
[02:29:22] it may take longer.
[02:29:24] Cause this person maybe has not been sleeping well at all.
[02:29:27] Not eating well.
[02:29:29] Like maybe they've been using, maybe they haven't.
[02:29:32] Poor hygiene.
[02:29:33] Caffeine, smoking, I mean, you name it.
[02:29:35] So just like getting somebody eating well
[02:29:38] and on a regular basis, getting some physical exercise,
[02:29:42] getting like their sleep hygiene in order.
[02:29:45] Structuring some habits throughout the day.
[02:29:47] You wouldn't be amazed how much changes
[02:29:49] just in that little period of time.
[02:29:51] And we've talked with folks that,
[02:29:53] and this is also related to the meds,
[02:29:55] is sometimes when people have,
[02:29:56] they're seeing multiple doctors,
[02:29:58] or they go in and they see a different doctor every time.
[02:30:01] And they may not be coordinating,
[02:30:03] so you're just getting all kinds of meds and things
[02:30:05] that may not even really go together.
[02:30:07] So same with diagnoses.
[02:30:09] We've had folks come in with a laundry list of diagnoses.
[02:30:13] I'm like, you can't even have half of those at the same time.
[02:30:16] They're both at the same time.
[02:30:17] But these were all little snapshots of,
[02:30:18] oh, this trip to the ER and this trip to the hospital,
[02:30:20] like this is what they look like that day.
[02:30:22] And that's what they look like this day.
[02:30:23] It doesn't mean they have all of those things.
[02:30:25] So let's get them eating and sleeping and in a routine
[02:30:29] and comfortable showering.
[02:30:32] Physical activity.
[02:30:33] It's the basic psychological and physical wellness and safety.
[02:30:37] And guess what?
[02:30:38] Almost all of these diagnoses go away.
[02:30:40] Maybe we're left with these couple right here.
[02:30:43] Yeah, I was on Joe Rogan's podcast,
[02:30:45] and it was the morning of Chris Cornell
[02:30:51] from Soundgarden had killed himself.
[02:30:53] And of course, Joe and I started talking about it.
[02:30:58] And look, we're just a couple of knuckle-draggers talking.
[02:31:02] But both of us were kind of like, man,
[02:31:05] get a kettlebell to work out.
[02:31:07] And again, like I said,
[02:31:09] we're just a couple knuckle-draggers talking.
[02:31:13] And again, reading the comments, people are like,
[02:31:18] oh, you think just working out's gonna solve everything.
[02:31:20] And of course, I don't think that, but damn,
[02:31:24] it's a good thing to do.
[02:31:26] Go get healthy.
[02:31:27] Get on a sleep schedule where you're doing,
[02:31:29] like where you're getting some good sleep.
[02:31:32] Eat good food.
[02:31:33] Stop eating trash.
[02:31:35] Go outside.
[02:31:37] Move around.
[02:31:38] This is real, right?
[02:31:40] Yeah, I mean, it's both and.
[02:31:41] Because without the structure that we create,
[02:31:43] the therapeutic process that we try to do is not possible.
[02:31:46] Like without the routine, without the sleep,
[02:31:49] without the healthy eating,
[02:31:51] can't actually do that therapeutic part.
[02:31:52] So there's a lot that can happen
[02:31:54] in that initial structure of physical activity and all this.
[02:31:57] And for those folks with those clinical aspects
[02:31:59] that require a deeper level of therapeutic intervention
[02:32:02] or psychiatric support, that's the framework.
[02:32:04] That has to maintain.
[02:32:05] That never changes.
[02:32:07] That structure and stability is the main component
[02:32:10] that holds the foundation for everything else
[02:32:13] to be able to be possible.
[02:32:14] So it's definitely, with any sort of complex human issue,
[02:32:18] you can't say that one thing is gonna solve anything.
[02:32:20] Of course.
[02:32:21] But that is undoubtedly the foundation for,
[02:32:24] which all else sort of occurs for our folks
[02:32:27] and becomes the thing that they maintain long term
[02:32:30] when they move into their own houses.
[02:32:31] They're still getting up at a certain time.
[02:32:33] They might pick their day that they go grocery shopping.
[02:32:36] They might, because that structure and routine
[02:32:38] is very helpful.
[02:32:39] Human beings like that, don't we?
[02:32:42] And when you live without it,
[02:32:43] it's just the beginning of possible serious issues.
[02:32:49] Now, here's another thing that I talked about on a podcast.
[02:32:52] This was around mass shootings.
[02:32:56] And as myself and my friend Darrell were looking
[02:33:00] into the various causes behind these mass shootings,
[02:33:04] one of the most shocking pieces of information
[02:33:10] that we came across is this right here.
[02:33:12] So in 1955, in America, there were 340 inpatient beds
[02:33:19] per 100,000 people.
[02:33:21] So I'm gonna say that again in 1955,
[02:33:23] 1955 for every 100,000 people there were in America,
[02:33:28] there were 340 inpatient beds for mental health care.
[02:33:35] Now, here we are, you fast forward to 2007.
[02:33:40] In 2007, there were only 17 beds for every 100,000 people.
[02:33:49] And here we are, we talk about mental health all the time.
[02:33:51] Now, some of the feedback that I got about that episode
[02:33:54] was that in the 50s and 60s,
[02:33:59] there were these really heinous,
[02:34:02] some really heinous events that happened
[02:34:05] inside these psychiatric wards and people were abused.
[02:34:09] And they pretty much from everything I can tell
[02:34:12] threw the baby out of the bathwater and just said,
[02:34:15] oh, you know what, we're just gonna shut these things.
[02:34:17] Abuse happens in these places, we'll shut them all down.
[02:34:23] I think about, like, you know, I live in San Diego.
[02:34:26] I think about what there's a couple million people
[02:34:28] in San Diego, that means that there would be
[02:34:31] a few thousand inpatient beds if we were on the 1955 levels.
[02:34:36] And if you go around San Diego
[02:34:38] and you go look at the homeless people,
[02:34:40] many of whom have psychological and mental health issues,
[02:34:45] if you opened up all those beds,
[02:34:47] they would probably fill them
[02:34:48] and we'd be in a much different place.
[02:34:50] And these people would be getting some kind of treatment
[02:34:53] that they actually need.
[02:34:54] What do you think happened with this?
[02:34:58] Is it just the abuse that took place,
[02:35:00] we shut them down, is there anything else?
[02:35:02] I mean, there's a lot to this.
[02:35:04] I mean, you're talking about the deinstitutionalization.
[02:35:06] Like, I mean, some of this started even back
[02:35:08] into the 1700s, but there's like, at the time,
[02:35:12] in the time that you're referring to,
[02:35:13] primarily residential facilities
[02:35:16] is where folks would be able to take their loved ones
[02:35:18] with mental health, right?
[02:35:19] So if people had mental health issues,
[02:35:20] they went into these residential facilities
[02:35:23] and that's where they primarily received treatment,
[02:35:25] or just a place to stay.
[02:35:27] And then as that evolved, sometimes,
[02:35:30] I think the term asylum came along at some point,
[02:35:32] this became a place where people could stay
[02:35:34] and also work and session they were having.
[02:35:36] But what was really happening on the inside
[02:35:39] was a pretty restrictive setting in some ways.
[02:35:41] And then there was some people that had gone in
[02:35:44] and saw all this horrific stuff that was happening.
[02:35:47] And so ultimately, all of these sort of things
[02:35:49] move towards this idea that a person is entitled
[02:35:51] to the least restrictive settings.
[02:35:53] And there's a lot of stuff that happened
[02:35:54] over the course of the period of time for this,
[02:35:56] but that a person should not be chained up,
[02:35:58] they should be entitled to the least restrictive setting.
[02:36:00] And so then you also had the notion then coming in
[02:36:04] of SSDI and SSI and these different things
[02:36:08] that started reform as federal movements.
[02:36:09] But people-
[02:36:10] SSDI and SSI. So it's Social Security Disability Income,
[02:36:13] or Social Security Income that came from a federal movement.
[02:36:16] So this part where people who were in inpatient facilities
[02:36:19] at the time were not entitled to those resources.
[02:36:21] And so sort of forced this max,
[02:36:23] this set of exodus, this discharge from hospitals
[02:36:27] for them to be able to receive these services.
[02:36:29] And what you find at that time,
[02:36:30] then it also, some of the states created some laws
[02:36:34] that made it much more difficult for people
[02:36:35] to readmit to inpatient settings.
[02:36:38] So the notion was good, this idea
[02:36:40] that people will do better in the community,
[02:36:41] they'll do better in the least restrictive setting.
[02:36:43] Let's create these resources like SSDI
[02:36:46] and such like that for them.
[02:36:47] However, it sort of flipped its on its head
[02:36:49] in terms of the amount of resources
[02:36:51] that the community wasn't ready to absorb that.
[02:36:53] So what we saw is sometime in some states,
[02:36:55] I think California, I can't remember the year,
[02:36:57] but in the year of sort of discharge of hospitals out
[02:37:01] into we saw the jail population double in California.
[02:37:05] And the homeless population,
[02:37:06] but they think what I recently read
[02:37:08] is something around like 65% of the jails
[02:37:12] are full of people with mental health issues.
[02:37:14] I was talking to a police officer
[02:37:16] a month, month and a half ago,
[02:37:18] and he was just, he had heard that podcast
[02:37:21] and he was like, yeah, he goes,
[02:37:22] I 100% have to arrest people
[02:37:27] and there's no possible way that they belong in jail.
[02:37:30] They belong in some kind of a mental health facility
[02:37:32] and there's nowhere to take them.
[02:37:34] So guess where they go?
[02:37:35] They go to jail.
[02:37:35] Right, right.
[02:37:36] Or they don't go anywhere,
[02:37:38] or they just get,
[02:37:39] they might get go into jail for two nights
[02:37:42] and then they get kicked out,
[02:37:43] but back out on the street
[02:37:45] and they're just deteriorating.
[02:37:46] Well, and if you read about this,
[02:37:47] I mean, depending on where you come from,
[02:37:49] congressman, rulemaker, they're gonna say financial stuff,
[02:37:51] whatever, like everybody has sort of a different
[02:37:53] rationale as to why the institutionalization of the outcome.
[02:37:57] But ultimately what we know is that
[02:37:59] we didn't know anything really around that time
[02:38:01] around complex psychiatric illnesses.
[02:38:02] It was just in the mid 50s at the first,
[02:38:06] like the 1950s, anti-psychotic drug was released.
[02:38:09] Prior to that, it was, you know,
[02:38:11] people with mental illness,
[02:38:12] like they'd never be cured, right?
[02:38:13] There was the myth of mental illness.
[02:38:15] We didn't know too much about it.
[02:38:16] And so I think Thorazine was the first anti-psychotic
[02:38:19] that came out in the 1950s.
[02:38:21] And so at that point it was like,
[02:38:22] oh, well people can get better.
[02:38:24] And that was a very also pivotal movement
[02:38:27] in the de-institutionalization of people
[02:38:28] that historically had been able to be seen as like,
[02:38:30] they just will always need to live in some type of facility.
[02:38:33] It became, oh, we can like do something with this.
[02:38:35] And today obviously there's tons of different things,
[02:38:37] but yeah, it definitely had an impact
[02:38:41] on our homeless and jail population.
[02:38:43] Is there any movement back in the other direction at all?
[02:38:48] I mean, I don't know too much to speak to that part,
[02:38:50] but what I will say about like Anu
[02:38:52] and what Humblechia had been for a very long time
[02:38:54] is it's a very unique model of care
[02:38:57] that allows for a full continuum of care
[02:38:59] where people can have like a residential setting
[02:39:03] sort of right out of the hospital for a long-term period
[02:39:06] of time and then fluidly move through
[02:39:08] transitional residential for a person
[02:39:11] to be able to kind of integrate what they need.
[02:39:12] And then also to be able to move back
[02:39:14] into that inpatient setting if they need to.
[02:39:16] And instead of sort of this pattern of,
[02:39:19] I end up in the hospital,
[02:39:21] I get discharged to either home environment
[02:39:23] or a place that's not conducive for me
[02:39:25] to be able to integrate that treatment episode.
[02:39:27] I'm out on the streets or I'm not receiving the care I need
[02:39:30] until I regress again that I've been back in the hospital
[02:39:33] to utilize all these emergency services.
[02:39:35] Like, and our model of care really allows people
[02:39:37] to stay long-term in a way that they can move fluidly
[02:39:40] through this and avoid really moving
[02:39:42] into the hospitalizations.
[02:39:43] But it's also, it's a private pay model.
[02:39:46] It's that, you know, insurance is not gonna pay
[02:39:48] for that for folks, right?
[02:39:49] Because, and so folks who are primarily dependent
[02:39:52] on insurance and such like that will find themselves
[02:39:54] in more short-term environments.
[02:39:58] Kind of like crisis intervention.
[02:39:59] Environments which just, it creates kind of a revolving door.
[02:40:03] Right, I'm in crisis, I come in here for a couple of days,
[02:40:07] a couple of hours, maybe a week, stabilize, get out.
[02:40:11] There's nothing available for me once I'm out.
[02:40:13] So I deteriorate and then I come back, right?
[02:40:16] Or I end up in jail because oftentimes people
[02:40:18] with mental illness.
[02:40:19] Versus like the idea with deinstitutionalization
[02:40:23] was this idea of people having more rights,
[02:40:25] more agency, being out in the community,
[02:40:27] not being locked up.
[02:40:29] But then, so kind of, they're released
[02:40:32] to nothing that could hold them.
[02:40:34] So like what you were saying, Megan,
[02:40:36] is a lot of our clients come in from a hospital
[02:40:41] or like could have been in one,
[02:40:43] maybe they've been maintained at home,
[02:40:45] but like not well.
[02:40:46] And it takes, it's like this whole arc,
[02:40:49] it takes a long time to stabilize.
[02:40:51] All the stuff we just talked about with sleep and food
[02:40:53] before we can even get into the nitty gritty of like,
[02:40:56] what is going on here and what needs to happen?
[02:40:58] Let's get you off these 14 meds.
[02:41:00] Let's figure out what was really happening.
[02:41:02] Like this takes a long time.
[02:41:03] So the idea was nice.
[02:41:05] It was like kind of a humane idea,
[02:41:08] but the outside world was not equipped
[02:41:12] to receive all of these folks and actually help them.
[02:41:16] So they got worse, deteriorated and then their symptoms
[02:41:19] and then they're getting arrested,
[02:41:20] they're getting picked up.
[02:41:22] You know, you go to drop them off at some emergency room.
[02:41:26] They'll sit in the lobby for a day or two.
[02:41:27] Get some meds.
[02:41:29] There's your meds again and they're out.
[02:41:32] So I would think that the long term hope
[02:41:35] is that this model of treatment,
[02:41:37] which right now is basically for people
[02:41:40] that can afford it and it's expensive,
[02:41:42] is that over time people start to recognize
[02:41:46] this should be a number one,
[02:41:49] a type of treatment that should be covered by insurance.
[02:41:51] And number two, at some point,
[02:41:53] it gets to a situation where the public,
[02:41:56] there can be some public offering
[02:41:58] of treatment centers like this,
[02:42:01] but it's gotta be proven for an even longer.
[02:42:03] I mean, you've already been doing this for how long, Karlyn?
[02:42:05] 25 years.
[02:42:06] 25 years.
[02:42:07] You've seen incredible successes over those 25 years.
[02:42:10] And yeah, I mean, I hope that as people hear this,
[02:42:15] as people learn more about the methodology that you're using,
[02:42:18] first of all, like just other people in the private sector
[02:42:21] will pick up this type of model and start moving with it.
[02:42:23] And then eventually insurance hopefully starts
[02:42:26] to cover it and then eventually we start saying,
[02:42:28] oh, these homeless people on the street
[02:42:32] that have psychological problems,
[02:42:34] the worst thing we could do is take them,
[02:42:36] throw them in a prison or throw them in a jail for two days
[02:42:39] and kick them back on the street.
[02:42:40] We're just gonna do that.
[02:42:41] It's a never ending cycle.
[02:42:42] To get back to a point where look,
[02:42:45] do we wanna have people chained up to walls
[02:42:47] and having lobotomies and having electroshock therapy?
[02:42:50] No, obviously we don't.
[02:42:51] That's horrible.
[02:42:53] And I owe an episode on some of those horror shows
[02:42:57] that have taken place in the past.
[02:43:00] But to get to a point where there's only 17 beds
[02:43:04] per 100,000 people, I mean,
[02:43:06] you take 100,000 human beings with all the fragility
[02:43:11] of someone's brain and mind
[02:43:14] and you think you're only gonna need 17 inpatient beds.
[02:43:17] That's a crazy thought and yet that's where we're at.
[02:43:20] So what my hope is, is this model that you all are executing
[02:43:25] starts to be seen as the way to actually help people
[02:43:29] and it can broaden beyond people that can afford
[02:43:33] this type of treatment,
[02:43:34] because this type of treatment is very expensive.
[02:43:37] And we can, number one, get insurance to cover it
[02:43:39] and number two, hopefully eventually get it to a point
[02:43:42] where a model like this can be used
[02:43:44] on a broader public scale that the state can pay for
[02:43:49] if people need it.
[02:43:50] And yeah, like affordable and accessible.
[02:43:53] And by the way, I just wanna pause
[02:43:55] because you have been a great support to us.
[02:43:57] I mean, not only in the new treatment center,
[02:43:59] but in our previous facilities.
[02:44:01] So like you said in the beginning, coming in is like,
[02:44:04] I just am gonna invest some money here some guys.
[02:44:06] But your contribution and your involvement in that
[02:44:10] and staying involved, I think about seven, eight, nine years
[02:44:13] with our group has helped make this possible.
[02:44:17] So thank you.
[02:44:18] Yeah, absolutely.
[02:44:20] But that would be my hope too, right?
[02:44:22] Is what are the, if you look at any National Institute
[02:44:25] for Mental Health or CDC, one in five people
[02:44:28] has is considered having like kind of a mental health
[02:44:33] experience.
[02:44:34] One in 20 is considered as having like a serious mental
[02:44:39] health diagnosis or condition.
[02:44:41] One in 20, so I don't know the math and 100,000 people.
[02:44:45] How many does that turn out to?
[02:44:46] And we got 17 beds.
[02:44:47] I mean, it's insane.
[02:44:50] Yeah, it's horrible.
[02:44:54] Probably a good place to wrap it up.
[02:44:55] What, did we miss anything?
[02:44:59] Yeah, the one thing I was thinking about earlier
[02:45:01] and you had mentioned scaffolding.
[02:45:03] And again, I think this goes with a lot of your work
[02:45:06] as my understanding of Jocko is this idea of,
[02:45:09] there is a need for external scaffolding.
[02:45:11] Like you said earlier, people like,
[02:45:12] do they like, they don't really want to be there.
[02:45:13] Nope, they don't.
[02:45:14] And in the beginning, that's totally fine.
[02:45:16] We're gonna like scaffold them up
[02:45:17] because internally they're kind of jiggly
[02:45:19] and not really set, right?
[02:45:22] So we're gonna hold them until things can kind of firm
[02:45:25] up a little bit and over time as they're building,
[02:45:28] we pull the external scaffolding back
[02:45:31] because what is happening theoretically is internally,
[02:45:34] their internal scaffolding is taking shape and taking hold.
[02:45:38] So it's very much about helping people access
[02:45:42] their own agency, their own strength, normalizing
[02:45:46] and saying, yep, I get it today.
[02:45:47] You know what, today is just a rough one.
[02:45:49] That's fine, nothing is wrong with you.
[02:45:51] We're just having one of those days
[02:45:52] and help them develop that internal confidence
[02:45:55] and agency of like self-management,
[02:45:57] even when you have an illness,
[02:45:59] even if you have PTSD, even if you lost your friend.
[02:46:02] Yeah, well, this is the title of the book
[02:46:04] that I wrote, Discipline Equals Freedom.
[02:46:06] It's the exact same thing, right?
[02:46:07] I mean, it's like you put the disciplines in your life
[02:46:11] around waking up, around sticking to a structure,
[02:46:14] around going to get groceries, around showering,
[02:46:18] which you mentioned in it.
[02:46:19] You mentioned it like very quickly,
[02:46:21] you said, I don't know, showering.
[02:46:22] You get people that aren't showering,
[02:46:24] that's an issue, right?
[02:46:26] So we gotta have the discipline to get up,
[02:46:28] to stay on a schedule, to eat good foods,
[02:46:30] to shower, to brush our teeth.
[02:46:33] And once we get that kind of scaffolding,
[02:46:35] that kind of discipline in place,
[02:46:37] then it becomes internally become self-discipline
[02:46:40] and now we can get more and more freedom as time goes on.
[02:46:43] Why are some good tactics, techniques and procedures
[02:46:47] for getting someone to want to help themselves?
[02:46:54] So I got a family member,
[02:46:56] they're not dealing with reality
[02:46:59] or they're starting to show some of these signs.
[02:47:02] What's a step to take that might be helpful?
[02:47:06] So like I have a book called Extreme Ownership
[02:47:08] and people would say, like,
[02:47:09] why do I get my boss to read it?
[02:47:10] And the worst thing you can do is go to the boss
[02:47:12] and say, hey boss, you need to read this book.
[02:47:14] So we say, oh, you go and say, hey boss,
[02:47:16] I read this book, it really helped me out a lot.
[02:47:18] I'm trying to hold myself to these standards.
[02:47:19] Can you just look at it and if you see me slipping,
[02:47:21] can you type me up?
[02:47:22] You know, a little indirect approach.
[02:47:24] Do you have any recommendations around what to do
[02:47:27] and maybe some recommendations of what not to do?
[02:47:30] Yeah, I mean, I think, for their example,
[02:47:33] consistency is huge and patience too,
[02:47:35] because oftentimes we want people to move
[02:47:37] at the level of our ability to tolerate
[02:47:40] what's going on for them.
[02:47:40] And it's very uncomfortable to see someone struggling.
[02:47:42] It's very uncomfortable to see someone so hopeless.
[02:47:44] You're hearing their narratives.
[02:47:46] You're like, where are you even thinking at?
[02:47:47] And often we want them to move faster
[02:47:49] than they're ready to move.
[02:47:51] But what you're describing with the framing around the book
[02:47:53] is we plant seeds.
[02:47:54] We create as much structure and consistency
[02:47:57] as we can.
[02:47:57] We plant seeds.
[02:47:58] We help people to kind of be thinking about
[02:48:01] and how this will impact them.
[02:48:03] But every day it's the sort of same conversation
[02:48:06] until they get it and sort of a loving approach with them
[02:48:08] until they get it and being able to tolerate
[02:48:11] what comes up for me when somebody isn't moving at the pace
[02:48:14] that I want them to.
[02:48:15] Because when we're talking about, you know,
[02:48:17] somebody who needs a little pick me up,
[02:48:19] that turnaround might be a lot quicker
[02:48:20] than somebody with a chronic sort of complex disorder.
[02:48:23] And in that case, like, it might take days or months
[02:48:27] before that person gets up and goes showers on their own.
[02:48:29] So can I deal with my own frustration, right?
[02:48:32] Can I deal with my own sense of like helplessness
[02:48:34] and like sense of powerlessness or even inadequacy
[02:48:37] and not being able to like shift?
[02:48:38] Like all these things come up for someone
[02:48:40] when you're loving somebody through something like this.
[02:48:43] But consistency is huge.
[02:48:45] And then remembering that you're not hurting someone
[02:48:47] by trying to hold them in their own discomfort, right?
[02:48:51] So if somebody is uncomfortable,
[02:48:52] but you're helping move them through something
[02:48:54] that's good for them, you're not hurting them.
[02:48:56] Actually, they're experiencing that discomfort
[02:48:58] is going to be really helpful for them.
[02:49:00] It's a very loving thing to do.
[02:49:01] It's a conversation I have with parents often
[02:49:03] about this notion of like hurting in some ways
[02:49:05] when my child is experiencing discomfort.
[02:49:07] No, in fact, like experiencing discomfort in this thing
[02:49:10] is actually really motivating.
[02:49:12] Yes, and amazing for them.
[02:49:14] And it's a super loving thing to do.
[02:49:19] Yeah, and I think it's important to, you know,
[02:49:22] when I talked about, oh, it's normal to go in like,
[02:49:25] hey, you're sad, that's normal.
[02:49:27] Hey, you feel down when you hear this song, that's normal.
[02:49:29] Hey, it's also normal if you've got a kid or a relative
[02:49:34] that's having some issues that you take them
[02:49:37] to the engine shop to get checked out
[02:49:39] and see what's going on.
[02:49:40] Like this is also a normal thing.
[02:49:42] So I think that's another stigma to punch through.
[02:49:46] Anything we should not do, any warnings like,
[02:49:49] hey, that's not a good approach
[02:49:52] when you're trying to get someone to help themselves?
[02:49:54] Well, I think like some of the examples you used earlier,
[02:49:58] and even like when the kids call and ask you questions
[02:50:00] is like the not the shaming stuff.
[02:50:02] Like you said, like, well, what a mom
[02:50:04] who is gonna say something like,
[02:50:05] like, well, why are you doing that?
[02:50:07] You're like, those kind of things aren't typically helpful.
[02:50:09] Cause you know, nobody wants to be ill.
[02:50:11] Nobody wants to have PTSD.
[02:50:12] Nobody wants to have these symptoms.
[02:50:14] So even on the surface, if it looks like,
[02:50:16] why on earth would you do that?
[02:50:19] They're not doing it to like be difficult or willful
[02:50:21] or to make themselves, you know, worse.
[02:50:24] So it's easy, it's part of the stigma
[02:50:26] to move into kind of a shaming.
[02:50:29] Why, why did you do that?
[02:50:31] Like that's ridiculous.
[02:50:33] Or you know better than that, like this kind of thing.
[02:50:36] But they, I mean, people will sink, right?
[02:50:38] They kind of cower and sink into that.
[02:50:40] And in some ways might even come to believe
[02:50:44] that I'm weak, I'm incapable, I'm stupid, I'm whatever,
[02:50:47] which is gonna suck the sense of agency.
[02:50:50] So encouragement, still tough luck.
[02:50:53] I mean, it's a blend of all these things.
[02:50:54] Like I'm gonna be kind and respectful,
[02:50:56] also a little bit firm, also let you know
[02:50:59] that I absolutely believe in you.
[02:51:01] And so we're gonna get up right now
[02:51:03] and we're gonna do this thing,
[02:51:03] even though I know you feel really sad.
[02:51:05] Yep.
[02:51:06] Well, and I would say to not disregard your own intuition,
[02:51:09] especially when we're talking about suicide,
[02:51:11] because there's such a,
[02:51:13] there's also could be a self stigma in some ways.
[02:51:15] And so if your intuition has you wondering about something
[02:51:18] or something seemed off with them,
[02:51:20] or oftentimes we can talk ourselves out of that,
[02:51:22] oh, we don't step in other people's business,
[02:51:24] that somebody else's kid,
[02:51:25] or it's not my place to do that,
[02:51:27] or you know, maybe if I bring this up,
[02:51:28] it'll make it worse for them, you know.
[02:51:30] And so I think trusting our intuition is huge
[02:51:32] if there's a pull in some ways to check in with somebody
[02:51:35] or ask them how they're doing,
[02:51:36] or you notice something that feels off,
[02:51:39] can't tell you how many times,
[02:51:40] especially when we're working in a peer supported environment,
[02:51:42] because we're trying to get folks,
[02:51:44] when we're bringing them into this like,
[02:51:46] housing and they're living together
[02:51:47] to sort of notice each other and take care of each other,
[02:51:49] create their own community and friendships.
[02:51:51] When we see something go kind of sideways with someone,
[02:51:54] or they regress significantly or something happens,
[02:51:56] and you start asking their peers
[02:51:57] sort of what was going on.
[02:51:58] Oftentimes they noticed something,
[02:52:01] but their intuition talked them out of it.
[02:52:02] They'll be mad at me if I hold them accountable.
[02:52:04] You know, I didn't tell everybody
[02:52:06] when I didn't see that they were up for meds
[02:52:07] because I didn't want to like kind of call them out
[02:52:10] or whatever it might be.
[02:52:11] And so I think that, you know,
[02:52:13] trusting our intuition with that
[02:52:14] and like really checking in with people
[02:52:16] and asking important questions,
[02:52:18] and working through our own fears
[02:52:19] that we have related to addressing some of these things
[02:52:22] are super important.
[02:52:23] Your example of like,
[02:52:25] like hey, that's like the fourth time
[02:52:26] you went to the bathroom, the last half an hour, right?
[02:52:28] Imagine like you were saying, if you hadn't said that,
[02:52:31] like what that person would have done in their head
[02:52:33] and how that would have,
[02:52:34] so I think one of the advice, like it's both is,
[02:52:37] say something, say something, call it out, ask a question.
[02:52:40] Hey, like, again, the person might say,
[02:52:41] oh, I'm good, I'm good, don't worry about it, okay.
[02:52:43] But at least you saw them
[02:52:45] and they experienced you seeing them.
[02:52:47] They saw that, you saw them.
[02:52:48] Versus like that blind eye,
[02:52:50] I mean, I think the turning the blind eye,
[02:52:52] not saying the thing, keeping the secrets,
[02:52:55] under the rug is the worst.
[02:52:57] Yeah.
[02:52:59] From a leadership perspective,
[02:53:00] I always often talk about asking Ernest questions
[02:53:02] and how that's a great indirect way
[02:53:04] to let people know that you are watching
[02:53:07] and that you're interested.
[02:53:09] And the key word is Ernest.
[02:53:11] It's not like, hey, I noticed, you've been sad lately.
[02:53:16] What's wrong with you?
[02:53:18] Which is an accusatory question,
[02:53:20] as opposed to being like,
[02:53:21] you know, hey, what are you doing this weekend?
[02:53:23] Like an Ernest question.
[02:53:25] That's an Ernest question, what are you doing this weekend?
[02:53:27] I'm not doing anything.
[02:53:27] Oh, well, what about next weekend?
[02:53:30] I'm not doing anything.
[02:53:31] Do you wanna do something?
[02:53:32] Like, do you wanna go catch a movie?
[02:53:34] You know, so like these kind of Ernest questions
[02:53:36] are a good way to interact with people
[02:53:39] without being accusatory.
[02:53:41] And they might be like, yeah, you know,
[02:53:43] I know I haven't been doing much lately
[02:53:44] because I've been sick for the last few weeks
[02:53:47] and I'm just gonna heal up and you go, okay, cool.
[02:53:49] In which case, cool.
[02:53:50] You can carry on.
[02:53:51] They saw you notice that.
[02:53:53] Yeah, we talk about it as being curious,
[02:53:55] as opposed to accusatory,
[02:53:56] as approaching everything with a certain level of curiosity.
[02:53:59] It'll take you a long way.
[02:54:01] That will do it.
[02:54:02] Megan, any closing thoughts?
[02:54:05] Thank you for having us be here.
[02:54:08] I'm extremely grateful to be a part of this.
[02:54:10] And yes, I mean, I think in terms of the work that we do,
[02:54:13] it takes a special type of person to be able,
[02:54:15] to have this conversation, to talk about this,
[02:54:17] to work with this population, to be a part of it.
[02:54:20] And you're definitely a part of that.
[02:54:22] So thank you.
[02:54:23] Glad to be here, Carla, or anything else?
[02:54:25] Same, thank you for your support.
[02:54:27] If anybody wants to find you,
[02:54:29] the latest and greatest, the new treatment center
[02:54:32] is called a new.
[02:54:34] It's a good play on words you did there.
[02:54:36] A new treatmentcenter.com.
[02:54:40] You're on Instagram, so you're on social media
[02:54:43] with some positivity.
[02:54:45] That's at a new treatment center.
[02:54:48] You're on Facebook, you're on LinkedIn,
[02:54:50] and you're on YouTube.
[02:54:51] You got your own little YouTube channel going on.
[02:54:53] I've been running.
[02:54:54] I'm a social media part, but I'm really glad
[02:54:56] that's happening.
[02:54:56] And all those are at a new treatment center.
[02:54:58] And I was thinking, you two should do a little podcast,
[02:55:02] by the way.
[02:55:03] I'm just gonna let you know that.
[02:55:04] You should do it.
[02:55:05] You should talk about some cases that you see
[02:55:08] because people will be interested in it.
[02:55:11] I think it would be very educational.
[02:55:13] And I know I was laughed because Joe Rogan told me
[02:55:17] to start a podcast.
[02:55:18] And at the time I was like, oh, that's pretty cool.
[02:55:21] And then you realize Joe Rogan literally
[02:55:23] had one point in time Joe Rogan told everyone
[02:55:25] on his podcast to start a podcast.
[02:55:27] Because he was super stoked on podcasting.
[02:55:29] Well, you knew he was gonna get it right in one way.
[02:55:31] And a bunch of people have started podcasts,
[02:55:33] but certainly him and Tim Ferriss both told me
[02:55:35] to start a podcast and I listened to him.
[02:55:36] But I think that if you broke it down
[02:55:39] and did some podcasts about some of the things
[02:55:41] that you see, I think it would really be helpful
[02:55:43] for people and would be cool.
[02:55:46] So there you go.
[02:55:47] That's my little recommendation.
[02:55:49] And thanks for joining us.
[02:55:51] Thanks for educating us.
[02:55:52] Thanks for trying to educate me.
[02:55:53] I know it can be challenging sometimes.
[02:55:56] Megan, of course, thanks for your service in the Navy.
[02:55:58] And thanks to both of you for what you're doing today
[02:56:02] to help heal people, help get people to a point
[02:56:04] where they can live productive and happy lives.
[02:56:09] And by the way, if there's any one out there right now
[02:56:12] that's listening, you might not feel great today.
[02:56:17] And you might need to bring the car into the shop
[02:56:24] and get that thing looked at
[02:56:26] and figure out what's going on.
[02:56:28] Nothing wrong with it.
[02:56:29] It's gonna make you better.
[02:56:31] Thanks for doing that, both of you.
[02:56:33] Thank you.
[02:56:34] Appreciate it.
[02:56:36] And with that, Megan and Karlyn have left the building
[02:56:40] and Echo Charles has returned.
[02:56:42] Good evening, Echo.
[02:56:43] Good evening.
[02:56:44] So you were sitting there listening.
[02:56:46] Yes.
[02:56:47] You've been taking the, what, the kind of off-camera
[02:56:52] approach last two podcasts.
[02:56:54] You've been sitting there observing detached.
[02:56:57] Lot going on there, isn't there?
[02:56:58] Yes.
[02:56:59] Lot going on in the mental health world.
[02:57:03] Yeah.
[02:57:05] Yeah, it's really, it's like a slippery scenario, right?
[02:57:07] Because just like how you get, it's a spectrum.
[02:57:09] It's not like, oh, you're the, you know, like you,
[02:57:13] compared to your body.
[02:57:14] So if you break your arm.
[02:57:16] Yeah.
[02:57:16] It's like, oh yeah, a broken arm.
[02:57:17] Yeah.
[02:57:18] Or maybe you got a fractured arm.
[02:57:19] Mm-hmm.
[02:57:20] And that's sort of, it's kind of a distinct thing.
[02:57:22] Well, a fractured protocol.
[02:57:24] Broken, stress fracture.
[02:57:25] Okay.
[02:57:26] A spiral fracture.
[02:57:27] Okay.
[02:57:28] You know, kind of a thing.
[02:57:29] Pretty limited.
[02:57:30] Like as far as a bone break, you're kind of,
[02:57:35] there's a pretty specific protocol you're gonna follow.
[02:57:37] Hand full of things.
[02:57:38] It's pretty easy to diagnose, right?
[02:57:39] The spectrum isn't this weird, it's the, you know,
[02:57:42] there's guards of gray, you know?
[02:57:44] This bone compound fracture or whatever.
[02:57:46] Like there's some differences.
[02:57:47] Oh yeah.
[02:57:47] But we know that a broken bone is a broken bone.
[02:57:49] Here's how we fix it.
[02:57:50] Yeah.
[02:57:51] And then that's not, okay.
[02:57:52] Then compared to the mental part where it's like,
[02:57:54] it's just, it's, it's this spectrum
[02:57:56] and you can fall anywhere on the spectrum.
[02:57:58] By the way, you do fall on.
[02:57:59] Like we all fall on.
[02:58:00] That's what makes it even double.
[02:58:01] That's what makes it interesting.
[02:58:02] That's what really, that's part of what makes it interesting
[02:58:05] to me is like, oh, you're a little bit of a narcissist.
[02:58:08] I'm a little bit of a narcissist.
[02:58:09] I'm a little bit paranoid.
[02:58:10] You're a little bit paranoid.
[02:58:11] How paranoid are you?
[02:58:13] Are you good paranoid?
[02:58:14] Cause there's a certain level of paranoia.
[02:58:15] Like someone that's not paranoid at all
[02:58:17] is just like going through life.
[02:58:18] They can just get taken advantage of.
[02:58:19] You gotta be somewhat paranoid.
[02:58:20] Yeah.
[02:58:21] Delusion.
[02:58:22] So just like the dichotomy of leadership,
[02:58:23] like the dichotomy of your mental status
[02:58:28] is has to be balanced.
[02:58:30] Yeah.
[02:58:31] And that's so, it makes it so clear how helpful it is
[02:58:35] to understand and inversely kind of to express that,
[02:58:40] to people who might be in a certain situation
[02:58:42] that like, hey, that's, that's normal.
[02:58:45] Like there's nothing quote unquote wrong.
[02:58:46] That's normal, you know?
[02:58:48] And so, and that's what makes it even harder to,
[02:58:51] where it's like this bad thing,
[02:58:53] this thing that I don't want, you know,
[02:58:54] like you break your arm, something that you hurt,
[02:58:56] your arm will say, you hurt before you go to the doctor
[02:58:58] or whatever, you know something's wrong.
[02:59:00] Like this thing is hurting.
[02:59:01] It's not getting better, whatever.
[02:59:03] Let me go to, I know something's wrong.
[02:59:05] So mentally you're gonna feel sad for two days
[02:59:07] or whatever you feel you have these feelings for two days
[02:59:09] that are normal.
[02:59:11] So it's like harder to, you know, after a while,
[02:59:13] it's like maybe if I'm behaving in a certain way,
[02:59:15] it's like certain symptoms have to kind of arrive
[02:59:17] or arise along with the feeling.
[02:59:21] And it's all like, and if you don't know, you don't know,
[02:59:22] you know, so it's like just so slippery like that.
[02:59:24] I took down a note during the catch 22,
[02:59:27] which basically means cause even with, with,
[02:59:32] Marcus and Amber on the last podcast,
[02:59:34] I was kind of like, you know, I feel fine and like,
[02:59:36] I don't think I need anything, right?
[02:59:37] Someone's telling them.
[02:59:38] And then these guys show up today,
[02:59:40] these girls show up today, these women show up today.
[02:59:42] And I kind of tell them the same thing, you know,
[02:59:44] before we get in here, I'm like, you know,
[02:59:46] I feel like, you know, I'm fine.
[02:59:47] But then one of the, one of the like notifications
[02:59:52] of when you're crazy is when you don't think you're crazy.
[02:59:54] Right?
[02:59:55] So I'm like, oh, I'm that guy that doesn't think he's crazy,
[02:59:57] but I'm actually totally crazy.
[02:59:59] So I thought that was kind of funny
[03:00:01] as I was thinking through that.
[03:00:02] I was like, wait a second, I'm the guy that's in here.
[03:00:04] I'm fine, but I'm actually crazy.
[03:00:06] Yeah.
[03:00:07] Oh yeah.
[03:00:08] So gotta watch out for that one.
[03:00:09] Yes.
[03:00:10] And we all know people, maybe not a lot,
[03:00:12] but we know people who are like,
[03:00:15] they obviously routinely do things that are just,
[03:00:19] you shouldn't be doing that.
[03:00:21] And they're like, no, no, no, I'm fine.
[03:00:22] I'm fine.
[03:00:23] I'm absolutely fine.
[03:00:24] So you're like, man, am I that guy?
[03:00:26] Just not knowing all the things that I'm doing
[03:00:28] that's not fine, you know?
[03:00:31] So gotta watch out for it.
[03:00:33] But what a, what a fascinating world.
[03:00:37] And as I was doing research for that part,
[03:00:39] and we only got to so much.
[03:00:40] I mean, there's so every one of these things,
[03:00:42] when you open it up, I mean,
[03:00:45] there's a story in like a whole world behind being paranoid.
[03:00:51] And what a really paranoid, or being anorexic.
[03:00:54] What a real, what that looks like.
[03:00:55] Like there's a whole world behind each one of these.
[03:00:57] That's what's interesting, like compared to,
[03:01:02] you know, an orthopedic surgeon.
[03:01:03] Like sure, there's a bunch of different things
[03:01:04] that can go on with a broken arm or with whatever, right?
[03:01:07] But, you know, this is just wildness, you know?
[03:01:12] It's wildness.
[03:01:13] And you remember how you, a long time ago on the podcast,
[03:01:16] you said working out is like the one thing that you can do
[03:01:19] that will positively impact everything that you do.
[03:01:21] I feel that that proved to be right.
[03:01:22] But what's interesting is,
[03:01:25] having a broken arm is gonna impact some parts of your life,
[03:01:29] but it's not gonna impact like everything.
[03:01:32] But if you have some kind of a mental health issue,
[03:01:35] it's like everything is gonna be impacted.
[03:01:39] And again, it's a spectrum where it's like,
[03:01:42] oh, you know what, now I'm kind of like,
[03:01:45] I don't go out as much.
[03:01:46] Cool, that's no big deal, right?
[03:01:49] But then where does it go?
[03:01:50] Like does it, I don't go out much to,
[03:01:52] hey, I'm not gonna go,
[03:01:54] I'm not gonna go to the grocery store,
[03:01:56] to I'm gonna have people drop my food
[03:01:59] at the end of the hallway, to I'm just gonna sit in here
[03:02:02] and like not eat.
[03:02:03] Like it's just, it's very strange.
[03:02:07] And the other thing that I find interesting is just how,
[03:02:12] when I talked to him about how I had said in the academy,
[03:02:15] like we're all insane.
[03:02:16] Everyone's insane, cause your version of reality
[03:02:19] is different than my version of reality.
[03:02:20] And by the way, neither your version or my version
[03:02:22] is actually correct.
[03:02:24] Like what your perception is is not 100% correct,
[03:02:27] my perception is not 100% correct.
[03:02:29] We hope that you and I have a big overlap.
[03:02:32] Like we hope that we have a big, huge overlap.
[03:02:34] And there's like a little bit that I think
[03:02:35] is a little different, a little bit, but that's what we hope.
[03:02:37] And we hope that with most people in our lives,
[03:02:39] most of it is relatively close.
[03:02:42] But the fact is, and also, the fact is
[03:02:46] they're not gonna be perfect and different people.
[03:02:48] Like you can go meet someone today.
[03:02:50] You and I have 97% overlap.
[03:02:53] We can go talk to someone right now
[03:02:54] that we only overlap like 20 or 30% of reality.
[03:02:58] Their reality is just different.
[03:03:00] And that's a real thing.
[03:03:02] That's reality.
[03:03:04] So, it's mayhem out there.
[03:03:07] It is mayhem out there, it's crazy man.
[03:03:09] It's crazy because of how they shed such a clear light
[03:03:12] on how it really works.
[03:03:13] And it's like, man, all this is going on right now.
[03:03:15] Like in my head, in this person,
[03:03:17] in everyone's head around us.
[03:03:18] Holy cow.
[03:03:19] And she'll mention like, or,
[03:03:22] they'll mention like certain things, right?
[03:03:24] Where it reminds you that, hey,
[03:03:27] I didn't really think about this.
[03:03:29] Where like going out, going outside, right?
[03:03:31] I think actually you said it.
[03:03:33] Get outside.
[03:03:35] And not just outside the building,
[03:03:37] I mean, I think anyway, outside and talk to people.
[03:03:40] Talk to different people, be around different people.
[03:03:42] Cause you know, now a lot of my work, quote unquote,
[03:03:45] work is inside in front of the computer
[03:03:48] for long periods of time.
[03:03:49] So then I remember, not recently,
[03:03:51] but this was like years ago,
[03:03:52] where I remember not going outside for a few days.
[03:03:55] Like not going outside of the building in a few days.
[03:03:58] That's not healthy.
[03:03:58] Yeah. And you can feel it too.
[03:04:00] Like after a while, when you kind of are in touch with it,
[03:04:02] like you can feel it.
[03:04:03] Or not used, not, or being, not used to being around people.
[03:04:09] When, okay, I used to work in nightclub
[03:04:10] where you're around people all the time.
[03:04:12] All different dynamic spectrum of people all the time.
[03:04:16] Positive negative everybody.
[03:04:19] And then, you know, working inside
[03:04:21] where you're not around a lot of people.
[03:04:23] Like I can totally tell the difference.
[03:04:24] Like the idea of me,
[03:04:25] and this might have to do with age too, by the way,
[03:04:27] but the idea of going down
[03:04:30] and dealing with the crowd of a nightclub or something.
[03:04:32] Doesn't appeal to you.
[03:04:33] On any night is like,
[03:04:35] that is one of the last things I'd want to do.
[03:04:37] And then when I compare,
[03:04:38] especially when I compare it to like,
[03:04:39] how I was kind of down with that long time ago, you know?
[03:04:42] And so you take that idea and do it
[03:04:44] and just apply it to everyday life.
[03:04:45] I know nightclub and all that stuff is different,
[03:04:47] little bit different.
[03:04:48] But in everyday life,
[03:04:49] if you're used to going out to the store
[03:04:50] or going out to this and that,
[03:04:52] and then you don't go outside for a long time,
[03:04:55] or you just simply alone,
[03:04:56] you just don't go outside for a long time.
[03:04:59] Starting to go outside and dealing with like people
[03:05:01] or the public becomes more and more challenging,
[03:05:04] just cause you're not used to it,
[03:05:05] just like any kind of exercise you do.
[03:05:07] So I'm saying,
[03:05:08] and I can understand even more now.
[03:05:12] How that window shuts.
[03:05:14] Yeah, and how that can jam you up mentally.
[03:05:17] It doesn't seem like you're made for that kind of stuff.
[03:05:19] You know, just being isolated.
[03:05:21] And then you're stuck with the internet all the time.
[03:05:23] Oh man, brother, brother, you gotta watch out.
[03:05:25] You see that internet conversation
[03:05:26] could be a five hour conversation.
[03:05:27] Oh yeah.
[03:05:28] Cause it's mayhem out there on the internet.
[03:05:31] And if you have that little belief,
[03:05:33] I mean, look, if you believe that veganism
[03:05:39] is the best thing for you,
[03:05:41] that you can go insane.
[03:05:42] If you believe that the carnivore died
[03:05:45] is about you can go insane.
[03:05:46] If you believe like whatever weird belief
[03:05:49] that you wanna have,
[03:05:50] and you wanna jump on the internet
[03:05:51] and you wanna read into that thing.
[03:05:53] Bruh.
[03:05:54] You gotta watch out, man.
[03:06:00] Don't get off that internet, man.
[03:06:02] It's gonna jack you up.
[03:06:04] And the weird thing is when I tell you,
[03:06:06] if I'm like, echo dude, you gotta get off the internet.
[03:06:08] You gotta stop reading about, you know, carnivore diet.
[03:06:12] You be like, oh, you just want me to keep eating
[03:06:13] the mainstream diet.
[03:06:15] It's like that, you see?
[03:06:16] It's like a self-fulfilling prophecy.
[03:06:20] So you gotta get yourself out of the algorithm.
[03:06:23] Just watch out.
[03:06:24] Hey, that being said, one thing that we did talk about today
[03:06:29] was being healthy, eating the right foods, working out.
[03:06:35] This is coming from two people in the industry
[03:06:37] for a quarter, well, between them,
[03:06:39] it's probably, I don't know, 50 years or something.
[03:06:41] They got a lot of experience in this industry.
[03:06:43] And I made fun of Rogan and me saying like,
[03:06:48] oh, you should work out.
[03:06:50] I kinda made fun of it.
[03:06:51] And they're like, actually, it's true.
[03:06:53] Work out, eat right, stay on the path.
[03:06:56] It's gonna help you in everything that you do.
[03:06:58] So get yourself some good, let's say, supplementation.
[03:07:02] Yes, to help with that work out.
[03:07:04] And that's the thing, actually,
[03:07:05] you're probably in this boat too, where you-
[03:07:06] Segway just occurred.
[03:07:07] You're welcome, everybody.
[03:07:09] Yeah, that's the perfect chance.
[03:07:12] But you probably like this too,
[03:07:13] where you pretty much worked out your whole life,
[03:07:15] probably, right?
[03:07:16] Yeah, I really didn't start legitimately working out
[03:07:20] until I was like,
[03:07:21] first of all, because working out wasn't really a thing.
[03:07:25] I mean, it really wasn't.
[03:07:26] Like, there was no, I'm one of my five years older than you.
[03:07:29] So like, yes, did we have Joe Weider's
[03:07:34] superweight gain back in like 1985?
[03:07:36] Yes, we did.
[03:07:37] But we didn't understand, at least where I was.
[03:07:40] I mean, look, maybe if I'd have been at some bigger school,
[03:07:45] cause I was in like a little school,
[03:07:46] like there was a YMCA and there was a,
[03:07:48] there was bumper plates in there.
[03:07:49] But like, I had no idea what.
[03:07:51] I remember there was a blind guy
[03:07:54] that would Olympic lift.
[03:07:56] And I actually thought at the time it was cause,
[03:07:59] like that was what he was limited to.
[03:08:02] I thought, well, you know, he can't really see,
[03:08:04] so he just stays in this one spot and just lifts that one bar.
[03:08:07] He doesn't know how to use the freaking peck deck.
[03:08:11] You know what I'm saying?
[03:08:12] So yes, I guess I have been working out for a while.
[03:08:14] Yeah.
[03:08:15] So we, and so you weren't like a jock.
[03:08:19] You were a jock-o, but you were just.
[03:08:20] I definitely was not like a jock,
[03:08:22] although I played soccer and basketball.
[03:08:26] Every year.
[03:08:27] Yep.
[03:08:27] Oh, okay.
[03:08:28] So yeah, yeah.
[03:08:29] So to me, that is working out.
[03:08:31] So, especially if you took it even this much seriously.
[03:08:33] So consider, and I'll use myself as an example.
[03:08:36] So when I was 11 years old, I started actual sports.
[03:08:40] So you play football.
[03:08:42] But you got into push-ups, right?
[03:08:43] I remember you.
[03:08:44] Push-ups.
[03:08:44] And so I always thought that having big muscles was cool.
[03:08:46] Yes.
[03:08:47] So, so I would do that kind of stuff.
[03:08:49] Yes, for sure.
[03:08:50] When you reach puberty, 13, 14,
[03:08:52] probably like 15 years old, we started lifting weights.
[03:08:55] So, man, from there, it was on.
[03:08:58] It was all one big program indefinitely.
[03:09:00] Till now.
[03:09:02] Till literally right now today.
[03:09:03] Till this morning.
[03:09:04] Yes, sir.
[03:09:05] Yes.
[03:09:06] So, and this is how it works.
[03:09:08] Essentially, if you care about sports,
[03:09:09] care about your performance in sports, which we did.
[03:09:11] So you go on season, obviously you're practicing every day,
[03:09:14] football and track, that's what we did.
[03:09:16] So football is one season,
[03:09:17] once football is over, get ready for track.
[03:09:20] Between that set, you're lifting weight.
[03:09:22] So yeah, you're just going from one sport
[03:09:25] to lifting and conditioning to the next sport,
[03:09:27] lifting and conditioning, and back and forth years
[03:09:29] through college.
[03:09:31] And then after college, it was just lifting.
[03:09:34] And then when I got into Jiu-Jitsu,
[03:09:35] okay, now it's lifting and conditioning for Jiu-Jitsu,
[03:09:37] tournaments, all this stuff.
[03:09:39] So essentially being on the program,
[03:09:42] on the path from a physical standpoint,
[03:09:43] is has been.
[03:09:44] In the long term, decades.
[03:09:45] Yeah, but as a result, it is served as like an anchor.
[03:09:50] So, you know, the idea of like not working out.
[03:09:54] It's not a thing.
[03:09:55] Like, oh, he just quit working out.
[03:09:57] Like, bro, man, it's hard to relate,
[03:09:59] even though it's so common.
[03:10:02] So yeah, I think if you can anchor that, the workout,
[03:10:06] like my physical health is like an anchor, a given.
[03:10:10] And it should be,
[03:10:11] because if your physical health falls apart,
[03:10:13] like it's gonna negatively impact everything else.
[03:10:16] Now look, you can get sick, and guess what?
[03:10:18] When you do get sick, if you get sick,
[03:10:20] it is still gonna negatively impact everything else.
[03:10:23] But there's sicknesses you don't have an option on, right?
[03:10:26] Like you get hit with some horrible cancer out of nowhere.
[03:10:29] Like what are you gonna do about that?
[03:10:31] Well, you know, you go through the protocol,
[03:10:32] you try and stay positive.
[03:10:34] But a lot of people,
[03:10:36] they don't get hit with something they can't control.
[03:10:38] They get hit with the one thing they can control.
[03:10:42] And they let it slide, which is freaking horrible to see.
[03:10:46] So let's not let it slide.
[03:10:48] Yep, get on there.
[03:10:50] And yeah, take your supplements.
[03:10:51] That helps it.
[03:10:52] That helps the physical part.
[03:10:53] So you're saying, Joc,
[03:10:54] cause these goods are functional.
[03:10:56] This is the line of supplements I wish I always had.
[03:10:58] Yeah.
[03:10:59] That could have been a game changer actually.
[03:11:01] If we were to have these supplements our whole lives.
[03:11:04] Yeah.
[03:11:05] A whole different story.
[03:11:05] A whole different story.
[03:11:07] Let's face it, we navigate our supplement experience
[03:11:10] very ignorantly.
[03:11:11] You know, the best advertisement wins straight up.
[03:11:14] Like, hey, you see a buff guy on there
[03:11:16] saying freaking 100 grams of protein first scoop.
[03:11:18] You see a guy that's freaking juiced to the absolute gills.
[03:11:22] Yes.
[03:11:23] Oh yeah.
[03:11:24] And you know, so that's, that's all we're gonna get.
[03:11:26] And he's like, yeah.
[03:11:27] I take Frank and whatever.
[03:11:30] And they come up with these crazy days.
[03:11:32] Mega mass, I forget the number.
[03:11:34] I think it was 5,000.
[03:11:36] Mega, brother, that tasted kind of good.
[03:11:38] It was in a big dog food bag.
[03:11:39] It was a food bag.
[03:11:41] For weight gain, mega mass 5,000.
[03:11:42] Like just get some.
[03:11:43] Oh yeah.
[03:11:43] And that's, but so yeah.
[03:11:45] Now we know, Brad, it's not like that.
[03:11:47] You gotta take the correct stuff,
[03:11:48] made with the correct stuff, for the correct stuff.
[03:11:52] So yeah, we're doing that.
[03:11:53] We got joint stuff.
[03:11:55] Mulk, which is the protein.
[03:11:56] That's the protein we should have had back in the day.
[03:11:59] Not this mega sugar, one million or whatever it was before.
[03:12:02] It seemed to me.
[03:12:03] The energy drinks, Jocco, Go.
[03:12:06] Yep.
[03:12:07] The first, maybe not the first.
[03:12:08] I don't know.
[03:12:09] I have no idea.
[03:12:10] Fully healthy energy drink.
[03:12:12] Yeah.
[03:12:13] The kind you drink one, you're healthier.
[03:12:15] You're healthier.
[03:12:15] You just got better.
[03:12:16] You just got better.
[03:12:17] You know, like, oh, good health came into can.
[03:12:19] Everyone was like, oh yeah, it does.
[03:12:20] There you go.
[03:12:21] It does.
[03:12:22] Well, one third of it, same saying.
[03:12:23] One third.
[03:12:24] Nutrition, exercise, rest.
[03:12:26] That's the trio.
[03:12:27] Oh, look at you over there.
[03:12:29] I'm gonna throw that rest at me.
[03:12:30] Gotta be.
[03:12:32] JoccoFuel.com, you can get all this good stuff for you.
[03:12:35] You can support the podcast.
[03:12:36] You can support yourself.
[03:12:36] You can be healthy.
[03:12:37] You can help your mental health.
[03:12:40] Right?
[03:12:40] We just did a freaking three hours on mental health.
[03:12:42] Help your mental health by helping your physical health.
[03:12:45] You can get the drinks at Wawa.
[03:12:47] We got October 3rd, I think the Moq RTD hits Wawa.
[03:12:52] Get in there.
[03:12:54] Get yourself some banana.
[03:12:55] Get yourself some chocolate.
[03:12:56] Get yourself some vanilla.
[03:12:58] The best you can get.
[03:13:00] The best, the best, the highest quality.
[03:13:03] Look, we are not cutting corners.
[03:13:05] And believe me, people want you to cut corners.
[03:13:07] They wanna make an extra seven cents.
[03:13:10] Nope.
[03:13:11] We could get an extra seven cents out of every sale.
[03:13:14] Per unit.
[03:13:15] Yeah.
[03:13:16] If you put, if you don't use a natural sweetener,
[03:13:20] if you use something that's bad for you,
[03:13:22] cool, I made more money off your health.
[03:13:25] No, we're not doing that.
[03:13:26] We are keeping healthy.
[03:13:27] JoccoFuel.com, Wawa, Vitamin Shop,
[03:13:31] HEB down in Texas, bunch of different places.
[03:13:35] If they don't have it where you shop, ask them for it.
[03:13:38] We'll get it to you.
[03:13:40] OriginUSA.com, we're doing Jiu Jitsu.
[03:13:44] Which means you need a gi.
[03:13:46] You might as well get the best possible gi in the world.
[03:13:49] Go to originUSA.com, get yourself the best made gi
[03:13:54] and it's made in America, just like the jeans.
[03:13:56] Just like the boots.
[03:14:00] Awesome stuff.
[03:14:02] The Hunt Gear.
[03:14:03] OriginUSA.com.
[03:14:05] Don't forget that we, don't we have a store?
[03:14:07] We do have a store.
[03:14:08] And what's that called?
[03:14:09] It's called Jocco Store.
[03:14:10] Again, the discipline equals freedom standard issue.
[03:14:14] T-shirt is out.
[03:14:15] We made the announcement.
[03:14:16] Made it yesterday to the people and you know, good response.
[03:14:20] It's a good, it's a good standard issue shirt.
[03:14:22] I saw you put a YouTube video up of the shirt locker.
[03:14:25] Yeah, kinda updated.
[03:14:27] Oh, is it an updated one?
[03:14:28] A little bit, yeah.
[03:14:30] It's pretty cool, quite frankly.
[03:14:31] Yeah, it's a metaphorical, it's metaphorical.
[03:14:35] It's a metaphor for the shirt locker.
[03:14:39] Oh, cause my shirt's changing?
[03:14:40] Yeah, you know, people, I read the comments.
[03:14:42] That's not the deepest metaphor.
[03:14:45] I read some of the comments, they're like,
[03:14:46] oh, how do you make a shirt change
[03:14:48] when you didn't even take it off or whatever.
[03:14:49] See what I'm saying?
[03:14:50] So I'm saying, hey, it's a metaphor.
[03:14:51] It's a metaphor.
[03:14:52] You wear a shirt, it changes every month.
[03:14:56] Boom.
[03:14:57] It doesn't really change on your body
[03:14:58] the way it does in the video, see what I'm saying?
[03:15:00] You're wearing one of these shirt locker shirts right now.
[03:15:02] Is that right?
[03:15:03] Yes, yeah, it is.
[03:15:04] The G.I. Joe one.
[03:15:05] G.I. Joe rip.
[03:15:06] Most recent one is called toxic productivity.
[03:15:09] It's a good one.
[03:15:11] It's a good one, very good.
[03:15:13] These cartoonish pictures that you're utilizing of me,
[03:15:17] by the way.
[03:15:18] Cartoonish pictures of me.
[03:15:20] Comic book.
[03:15:21] Comic book pictures of me.
[03:15:23] Like holding a weapon in each hand,
[03:15:27] riding a tank.
[03:15:32] That's funny stuff.
[03:15:33] Yeah, there's actually a lot of good designs on there.
[03:15:37] I don't know if they come up for.
[03:15:39] Sometimes people request certain types of designs.
[03:15:43] We go down a rabbit hole looking into it,
[03:15:45] the viability of certain ones.
[03:15:46] And some of them is just real obvious
[03:15:48] that just need to be made into shirts.
[03:15:50] So, but it's fun.
[03:15:52] Anyway, that's called the shirt locker.
[03:15:54] One shirt, a new shirt every month.
[03:15:56] Cool thing, people seem to like it.
[03:15:57] Check that out.
[03:15:58] It's all on Jocko store.
[03:15:59] Subscribe to the podcast.
[03:16:00] Don't forget about Jocko Underground.com.
[03:16:02] People getting canceled.
[03:16:04] People getting pulled off of platforms.
[03:16:07] We don't own this platform.
[03:16:08] Look, are we talking about some crazy controversial thing?
[03:16:11] Not really.
[03:16:12] Do we talk about some things
[03:16:13] that maybe could get us put in a situation?
[03:16:15] Yes, we do.
[03:16:16] We have, we've had warnings on some of our YouTube videos
[03:16:21] that they had to get fact checked.
[03:16:24] Oh yeah.
[03:16:25] So that's an indicator that, you know,
[03:16:27] maybe we're getting looked at.
[03:16:30] Well, obviously we are getting looked at.
[03:16:31] So to combat that, to make sure that we always have
[03:16:35] the ability to get information,
[03:16:36] we have Jocko Underground, Jocko Underground.com.
[03:16:38] We do an extra little podcast.
[03:16:40] We put it on there and answer your questions.
[03:16:42] Jocko Underground.com.
[03:16:43] If you want to support there, go support.
[03:16:45] We appreciate it.
[03:16:46] If you can't afford it, it's $8.18 a month.
[03:16:49] What do they say?
[03:16:50] Like, let's do a cup of coffee.
[03:16:51] Was that what they say?
[03:16:51] Yeah, sometimes.
[03:16:52] One it is.
[03:16:53] Like about things.
[03:16:54] Well, if you have a cup of coffee every day
[03:16:56] and you're buying it from one of the,
[03:16:58] like more well-known coffee shops,
[03:17:00] you're definitely spending more than $8.18.
[03:17:03] Oh yeah, monthly, even if you're having the most,
[03:17:06] unless you're not drinking coffee at all,
[03:17:07] you're spending more than $8.18.
[03:17:10] Even if you're going to the grocery store,
[03:17:11] getting, yeah, you're gonna spend maybe eight bucks,
[03:17:15] maybe coffee for the month.
[03:17:16] Pretty cheap, you can get.
[03:17:17] If you can't afford it, we still want you in the game.
[03:17:19] We still want to be able to talk to you
[03:17:20] in case things go sideways.
[03:17:22] Assistant, email assistants.jocko Underground.com.
[03:17:24] We have a YouTube channel, check that out.
[03:17:26] We have psychological warfare.
[03:17:28] People have that on their playlist on iTunes.
[03:17:31] Yeah.
[03:17:32] It's an MP3 that you can just,
[03:17:35] if you're going through life,
[03:17:37] you might experience a little moment of weakness.
[03:17:39] This will help get you through it.
[03:17:41] FlipsideCanvas.com, Dakota Myers Company.
[03:17:43] You get cool stuff to hang on your wall,
[03:17:45] which is nice, keep you on the path.
[03:17:48] I've written a bunch of books.
[03:17:49] You can check out those books at some point.
[03:17:52] If you're interested about the things we do here.
[03:17:55] Eshalonfront Leadership Consultancy, go to eshalonfront.com.
[03:17:59] If you need help in your organization, we can help you.
[03:18:03] We can help you through leadership.
[03:18:04] We solve problems through leadership.
[03:18:06] Go to eshalonfront.com for details on that.
[03:18:09] We also have an online training academy.
[03:18:11] I mentioned that a couple times today,
[03:18:14] where we teach leadership.
[03:18:15] Now look, leadership, it doesn't mean that you're the CEO,
[03:18:18] or you're the COO, or you're the commanding officer.
[03:18:21] There's leadership no matter where you are
[03:18:23] in an organization.
[03:18:23] And if you're the frontline individual contributor,
[03:18:27] or the frontline assaulter on a team,
[03:18:32] you are still in a leadership position.
[03:18:34] You're leading your teammates.
[03:18:36] You're actually leading your boss.
[03:18:38] You're leading your family.
[03:18:39] You're leading your friends.
[03:18:41] Become a better leader and you'll have a better life.
[03:18:45] Go to extremowinership.com, join the academy.
[03:18:49] And if you want to help service members active and retired,
[03:18:54] you wanna help their families, Gold Star families,
[03:18:56] check out Mark Lee's mom, Mama Lee.
[03:18:57] She's got a charity organization.
[03:18:59] If you wanna donate or you wanna get involved,
[03:19:01] go to americasmightywaryears.org.
[03:19:04] Don't forget about also Micah Fink's organization,
[03:19:09] heroesandhorses.org.
[03:19:11] Also, check out Marcus and Amber.
[03:19:14] Capone, they've got vetsolutions.org.
[03:19:17] Check out some of those charities.
[03:19:19] And if you wanna connect once again,
[03:19:20] if you wanna connect with a new treatment center,
[03:19:23] A-N-E-W, treatment center.
[03:19:26] Go to annuetreatmentcenter.com.
[03:19:29] They're on social as well,
[03:19:30] a new treatment center on Facebook, LinkedIn,
[03:19:32] YouTube, Instagram, they're there.
[03:19:35] And as for us, we're also in those places.
[03:19:39] Echo, is that Echo Charles?
[03:19:41] I am Matt Jockelwilig.
[03:19:42] Of course, be wary, be wary of that algorithm.
[03:19:45] And thanks once again to Megan and Karlyn
[03:19:49] for joining us today to share their knowledge
[03:19:51] with us to try and educate me.
[03:19:53] And thanks to both them for dedicating their lives
[03:19:57] to helping other people.
[03:20:00] Also, thanks to all our service men and women out there
[03:20:04] around the globe that are standing watch against evil.
[03:20:08] And a big thanks to our police and law enforcement,
[03:20:11] paramedics, EMTs, dispatchers, firefighters, correctional
[03:20:16] officers, border patrol, secret service,
[03:20:18] all the first responders.
[03:20:20] Thank you for protecting us from evil here at home.
[03:20:24] And everyone else out there,
[03:20:27] pay attention.
[03:20:30] Pay attention to that mental check engine light.
[03:20:33] Pay attention to your own.
[03:20:36] Pay attention to the people around you.
[03:20:39] And if that check engine light comes on,
[03:20:42] don't just keep driving.
[03:20:45] Pull over for a minute.
[03:20:48] Call that mind mechanic, call that therapist
[03:20:50] or that psychologist who can help get your mind back up
[03:20:56] and running the way it's supposed to.
[03:20:58] So that you can go out and get after it.
[03:21:03] And until next time, the Zeko and Jocko, out.