Jocko Podcast 35 w/ Echo Charles - Maneuver Warfare, Being a Rebel, Disarming w/ Words

2016-08-10T21:43:52Z

Join the conversation on Twitter: @jockowillink @echocharles 0:00:00 – Opening 1:13:23 – Cool Interwebs Stuff and Onnit Stuff 1:15:19 – Random Working out talk 1:26:05 – Thoughts on UFC McGreggor VS Diaz and Jiu Jitsu 1:33:40 – Jocko being a Rebel VS Rule-followers 1:43:40 – Dealing with a Leader who Preaches, but does not Practice ownership. 1:47:24 – The Art of Disarming People with Words. 1:53:48 – People who Lead from an emotional/unbalanced place. How to improve. 2:01:10 – “You get more bees with honey.” 2:05:23 – Sliding into old bad habits.

AI summary of episode

That's a good idea that makes sense You know, I like that those are all things that are gonna disarm somebody a little bit and Once you disarm them they're gonna they're gonna Open up they're gonna open up a little bit missile Launcher and it it has a radio or radar on it and it can track aircraft coming in and if you're a fighter aircraft You don't want to say what you want to stay away from that thing because it'll get you locked on radar It's gonna fire a heat-seeking missile at you and kill you So for them it's a surface it's a strong point for an aircraft it's a strong point But for a ground troop They don't put you know the highest level of troops Guarding these things because they're in the rear a little bit they put like kind of you know some what they call him here They're manned by troops who are not combat oriented so that means it's a softer target Back to the book. But if you're moving fast you can deal with that exposure Critics of these faster moving forms of combat characterized by initiative at the low level fear that they will lead groups To groups of men moving willy nearly about the battlefield and that commanders will lose control So people say oh, you know if I give so much so much initiative at the low level I'm gonna lose control of it and people are gonna be running around like chickens with their heads cut off This need not be so if the concept of surfaces and gaps is employed properly it will not be so That is why we have control measures the boundary the limit of advance the phase line can still be used It must be remembered that these control measures should serve their function But not be rigid lines that cannot be changed or ignored when the situation changes They should be kept to a minimum and must always be flexible Therefore it takes courage and moral character to select a main effort That is why the weak Commander and the amateur so often failed to do this in fact the weak commander will actively avoid choosing a main effort His very convenient for the commander weak and character to avoid selecting the main effort because if the battle goes on Favorably he can blame someone else for the mistake The commander who has taken the stand and selected his own main effort cannot do this Therefore in a sense the main effort is a moral commitment Taking some ownership by selecting the main effort And you got to dig that The next concept in again, you know I'm I'm cruising through this book like I always do only reading I don't know probably A very small percentage of it 15 percent and There's a ton in here you know and the dangerous part about getting giving to like going to front of the direction How you put it is you don't prepare them like they wind up when they're on their own Like they're not prepared for like like the tough parts Yeah, I'm the leader of the follow-up kind of thing Keep the goal in mine you're gonna do basically with your ownership You're gonna do your part and then some if someone's not doing you know certain things or whatever You're gonna take the lead you're gonna do your job in it to achieve the goal therefore pulling everybody ahead Fluidity Remember we even hear it a lot about in the Vietnam war the the Vietcong were too rigid they would just try their plan Didn't have the fluidity the main effort should be directed against enemy weakness not enemy strength Here you see the interconnection between the concepts the connection between the concept of the main effort and the concept of surfaces and gaps All the concepts are worked together at the same time the main effort cannot be understood in isolation from surfaces and gaps because it is directed against enemy weakness And another another One of the four laws combat that we talk about in the book extreme ownership is simplicity Simple back to the book even the principle of simplicity can be recognized in the concept of the main effort Instead of trying to do 10 different things we are focusing on one There will be many other efforts going on at the same time, but all in some way Directed at making the main effort succeed So what do you gain from this main effort? Right, you know like let's say I'm a way better striker than one guy and his duty to his way better than mine I can stay on you know it's obvious that's where I'm gonna talk but in this case, it's not like that. In order to this gives the order the quality that Eric von Mannstein called long term it can endure the test of time your commander can lose Communication with you yet you can still carry out his intent because you know what he wanted and you can Continue to act within his intent for a long time without checking back Understand why as briefed by Lieutenant Colonel echo Charles Fixed rules are not appropriate in instructing how to as how to assign missions to often students reject good ideas about tactics Because they cannot get their thoughts to fit the format of the operation order that is Being demanded the important thing is that the mission be clear Compared to clarity format is of little or no consequence Then this is We talk about it in extreme ownership that these massive power point briefs that I mean hundreds literally you know hundred to 150 slides to try and make the To try and brief a mission when and and the leaders would away so much time trying to put these briefs together Maybe there wasn't rebel, but we were we were like outsiders, you know, we were like going hard and The group of guys I was with when the guys I went through seal training with and went to seal team one with me back in the day You know, we we were getting effort we were pushing hard we were You know being hardcore yeah, like these kids who only get scolded, you know They don't get like compassion and and compliment and support you know they only get scolded a lot of times I mean there's a lot more to it, but a lot of times they're just gonna do the minimum and clearly to not get scolded too far together direction We get spoiled I would just call them free-frow information We're gonna learn from in the first the first section is called surfaces and gaps The concept of surfaces and gaps is one of several concepts that bear on tactics It is unimportant whether you refer to this concept as surfaces and gaps or soft spot tactics or simply the idea of Pitting your strength against the enemies weaknesses That is what it is all about strength against weakness call it what you will the term Surfaces and gaps is derived from a German term flaking on the lukin tactic Which means simply the tactics of surfaces and gaps the surfaces being the enemy strong points Which we avoid the gaps being the weak points that we want to go through Now La Delle Hart if we talked about already today Called it the expanding torrent system tactic he drew an analogy between attacking an attacking army and a torrent of water If we watch a torrent bearing down on each successive bank of earth and damn in its path We see that it first beats against the obstacle feeling and testing it on all points Eventually it falls it finds a small crack Through this crack pour the first driplets of water and rush straight on the pent-up water on each side is drawn towards the breach It swirls through around the flanks of the breach wearing away the earth on each side and so widening the gap Simultaneously the water behind poor straight through that breach between this the side eti's which are wearing away the flanks Directly it is passed through it expands to widen once more The on-reach of the turn of the torrent Thus as the water pours through it in and an ever increasing volume the on-reach of the torrent swells to its original proportion Leaving in turn each crumbling obstacle behind it Long paragraph yeah sure YouTube you can support that way and of course if you like the shirts Get a shirt Got a kind of a new one the the trooper one just it's just the basic brand in chocolate podcast if you're on YouTube right now I'm wearing one right now You know Debbie's one of the one of the troopers Just take a picture of the day like my mom just amazing background Mountains snow cap mountains trees Trooper trooper dish That was good. So right off the bat you'll be kind of one of those guys that's more approachable But here's here's one that's harder I mean it's simple, but it's it's kind of harder to do because I think it comes kind of natural Easy so not easy is don't talk bad about people and When people are talking bad about people like to you or around you or whatever don't like jump in and kind of accommodate them So then they talk about the ways you can do it you can do it through fire power of a drop in bombs by suppression by assault All those different ways to create gaps with you know using direct fire to soften up targets And then then I like these tactics a little bit better another way of creating gaps is through supporting attacks by attacking one point along the line We may divert the enemy from another point and by drawing them off created gap again this is in linear terms for instructional purposes for simplicity But do not get a linear mindset Sometimes a less costly way of creating a gap is through deception by causing the enemy to think that we will attack at one point There by enticing him to draw his forces off from another point

Most common words

Episode transcript

[00:00:00] This is Jocco podcast number 35 with echo Charles and me
[00:00:06] Jocco willing
[00:00:08] Good evening, I go good evening
[00:00:14] Weeper was ahead when he and born reach the gap in the wire
[00:00:20] Starshell after Starshell was going up now and the whole line had woken up machine guns were talking
[00:00:26] But there was one that would not talk the rattle of musketry continued
[00:00:33] But the mist was kindly to them and had thickened again
[00:00:39] As they got beyond the trampling clutching wire born saw weeper a couple of pieces ahead of him and
[00:00:45] What he thought was the last of their party disappearing into the mist about 20 yards away?
[00:00:50] He was glad to be clear of the wire another Starshell went up and they both froze and stillness under its glare
[00:00:59] Then they moved again hurrying for all they were worth
[00:01:03] Born felt the sense of triumph and escape thrill in him
[00:01:08] Anyway, the hunt couldn't see him now
[00:01:13] Something kicked him in the upper part of the chest
[00:01:15] Rending its way through him and his agonized cry was scarcely audible in the rush of blood from his mouth as he collapsed and fell
[00:01:27] Weeper turned his head over his shoulder listened stopped and went back
[00:01:32] He found born trying to lift himself and born spoke gasping suffocating
[00:01:38] Go on, I'm scuppered
[00:01:40] I'll not leave the said whipper said weeper. He stood and lifted the other and his huge ungangly arms
[00:01:50] carrying him as tenderly as though he were a child
[00:01:54] Born struggled weirdly to speak and the blood filling his mouth
[00:02:00] Prevented him
[00:02:02] Sometimes his head fell on weeper's shoulder
[00:02:05] That last barely articulate a few words came
[00:02:10] I'm finished leave me in peace for God's sake. You can't
[00:02:16] I'll not leave thee
[00:02:18] said weeper in infuriate rage
[00:02:22] He felt born stretch himself in a convulsive shutter and
[00:02:27] Relax becoming suddenly heavier in his arms
[00:02:31] He struggled on stumbling over the shell plowed ground through that fantastic mist
[00:02:38] Which moved like an army of rates hurling away from him?
[00:02:43] Then he stopped and taking the body by the waist with his left arm flung it over his shoulder
[00:02:49] Steating it with his right
[00:02:51] He could see there wire now and presently he was challenged and replied
[00:02:57] He found the way through the wire
[00:02:59] And staggered into the trench with his burden
[00:03:05] Then he turned down the short stretch
[00:03:09] to monk trench trench and came on the rest of the party outside a company's dugout
[00:03:18] I've brought him back he cried desperately
[00:03:20] And collapsed with the body on the duckboards
[00:03:31] And that is from a book called
[00:03:35] The Middle Parts of Fortune
[00:03:38] Which is written by a guy named Frederick Manning
[00:03:43] who served with the kings
[00:03:47] Shropshire light infantry in World War I he served with the seventh battalion at the battle of the song
[00:03:55] And after the war he became a writer and the book which is actually a novel but based on his experiences
[00:04:03] Was published as being written by private one nine zero two two
[00:04:10] It's out of got originally published and then after his death
[00:04:14] He finally received credit for writing it and it's a
[00:04:20] It's a very powerful book and I wanted to start with that excerpt from World War I because it is the most shining
[00:04:28] In my mind and most horrific example of a Trishon warfare
[00:04:34] Almost 20 million killed
[00:04:37] Usually over a few hundred yards of trench
[00:04:40] And I can't stand that
[00:04:45] A Trishon warfare is a strategy in which one side tries to grind down and wear down the other side
[00:04:54] And they break when they no longer have the men
[00:05:00] The soldiers
[00:05:03] The people the humans or the supplies to keep it going
[00:05:07] In
[00:05:09] It's brutal
[00:05:11] And it also gives
[00:05:13] No real advantage
[00:05:17] To intellect and to thought and to tactical prowess on the battlefield
[00:05:25] And I don't like it
[00:05:29] Now the opposite
[00:05:31] Of a Trishon warfare is maneuver warfare
[00:05:34] And that's what we're gonna dive into tonight
[00:05:36] The book is the maneuver warfare handbook
[00:05:42] But as we
[00:05:44] Talk about it
[00:05:46] Think about it not just being about war and about combat
[00:05:51] But about how a Trishon warfare and maneuver warfare can be easily seen
[00:05:57] In the way that we lead you know and
[00:06:00] Also in the way we interact with other people with other humans which is what leading is
[00:06:08] And so here we go
[00:06:10] Into this book right here maneuver warfare handbook
[00:06:15] It's written by William S. Lind and we're getting him in a minute
[00:06:22] Here we go with the book
[00:06:23] I served over 31 years active duty with the Marine Corps
[00:06:26] Saw combat in both Korean Vietnam and attended service schools from the basic school to the National War College
[00:06:34] Yet only toward the end of my military career did I realize how little I really understood the art of war
[00:06:41] Even as a PFC in Korea after being met a vact along with most of my platoon after a fruitless frontal assault
[00:06:47] Against superior North Korean forces
[00:06:50] It seemed to me there had to be a better way to wage war
[00:06:53] 17 years later
[00:06:56] Commanding a battalion at K-Son
[00:06:59] I was resolved that none of my Marines would die for lack of superior combat power
[00:07:06] But we were still relying on the concentration of superior firepower to win
[00:07:11] Essentially still practicing grants at Trishon warfare
[00:07:16] And we were still doing frontal assaults
[00:07:20] That opening right there is
[00:07:22] Colonel John C. Stutt
[00:07:26] Marine Corps obviously and he just kind of explained his his
[00:07:31] his career path
[00:07:33] Servant in both Korean Vietnam and he goes on the author of this book so he's doing the forward to this book maneuver warfare
[00:07:40] The author of this book has never served a day of active military duty
[00:07:45] And he has never been shot at
[00:07:47] Although there are no doubt some senior officers would like to remedy that later ladder deficiency
[00:07:53] So he's a little bit unpopular the guy that wrote this book with some with some people
[00:07:59] Yet he demonstrates an amazing understanding of the art of war
[00:08:04] As have only a small handful of military thinkers. I have come across in my career
[00:08:09] So he's talking about this guy
[00:08:11] William William S. Linde
[00:08:14] And here he goes into some details on William S. Linde and how he came into contact with him
[00:08:23] Back to the book
[00:08:25] When I first heard Bill Lynn speak I must confess I resented a mere civilian expressing criticism of the way our beloved
[00:08:33] Core did things
[00:08:34] After all he was not one of us
[00:08:37] He had not shed blood with us in battle. He was not a brother
[00:08:41] And I had strong suspicions that he would have difficulty passing the PFT
[00:08:47] Meaning the physical test the physical this so this guy went a lind not not exactly a
[00:08:54] High level athlete
[00:08:57] But what he said made sense for the first time I was personally hearing someone advocate a new
[00:09:03] Unapproach to war that was based on intellectual innovation rather than sheer material superiority
[00:09:09] Mission type orders surfaces and gaps shfared punked
[00:09:14] Instead of the rigid formulas and checklist that we normally associate with our training and doctrine
[00:09:19] It was a stimulating experience
[00:09:22] Through Lynn's articulation years of my own reading of military history began to make a lot more sense
[00:09:30] But why all this from a civilian instead of a professional soldier?
[00:09:33] In fact the entire movement for for military reform is driven largely by civilian intellectuals not military officers
[00:09:41] One notable exception being retired air force Colonel John Boyd
[00:09:46] When you think about it, this is not surprising
[00:09:49] We have never institutionalized
[00:09:52] A system that encourages innovative ideas or criticism from subordinates. So there you go
[00:09:58] It's the military. What do you say to your what do you say to your superior officer?
[00:10:01] I don't think that's a good plan. No, what they're told to do is support the plan
[00:10:07] Proposing significant change is viewed frequently viewed as criticism of superiors since they're responsible for the way things are
[00:10:15] And borders on disloyalty if not in subordination
[00:10:20] So it's not surprising that the movement for reform comes from outside the military establishment
[00:10:24] And he goes on to say be age
[00:10:30] Lidale Hart which be age Lidale Hart was a guy that
[00:10:35] Fought in world war one a Brit the front world war one
[00:10:39] Battle of Somme he got hit three times
[00:10:44] Eventually was gasped
[00:10:46] Set out of line and almost his entire battalion was wiped out
[00:10:50] And this guy eventually wrote a book called strategy and indirect approach
[00:10:59] And an interesting I pulled up one quote from him
[00:11:03] Often the longest way around is the shortest way there
[00:11:08] This is the indirect approach
[00:11:10] So anyways back to the book here on what be age Lidale Hart said
[00:11:14] Bill Hart once remarked that the only thing harder than getting a new idea into the military mind is to get an old one out
[00:11:23] In 1925 when he was expounding such a terrible
[00:11:28] theories as the indirect approach
[00:11:31] The American General Service Schools review of current military literature dismissed one of Lidale Hart's major works as
[00:11:38] Negative value to the instructors at these schools
[00:11:44] I expect Marine Corps schools to receive this publication with similar enthusiasm
[00:11:49] But I cannot believe a professional military officer would not benefit by reading it
[00:11:56] So
[00:11:58] That's if you
[00:12:00] To catch the set up of this book he's saying look this is different what we've been taught this is different and by the way this this book
[00:12:06] I'm checking the dates right now this came out in 1985
[00:12:10] So
[00:12:11] There has been progress in this direction since then but at the time that this came out it was just
[00:12:17] It was viewed as almost
[00:12:21] In subordination to think this way
[00:12:26] So let's jump into it right here
[00:12:28] With the theory of maneuver warfare so now we're getting to lend himself writing maneuver warfare is not new
[00:12:42] It probably dates from the first time a caveman surprised an enemy from behind instead of meeting him club to club
[00:12:50] Sometimes the word maneuver is used as a synonym for movement
[00:12:55] Such such as in references to fire and maneuver in small unit tactics
[00:13:00] So that's you know we have in in the book extreme ownership cover move and and that's what we're talking about
[00:13:06] We're talking about move. He's saying fire maneuver is the same use of the word maneuver to mean move
[00:13:14] Manuver is organized movement of troops during combat operations to a new access and
[00:13:19] Region for the purpose of taking in an advantageous position relative to the enemy in order to deliver a decisive strike
[00:13:28] So that that's sort of the classical definition
[00:13:31] But when used in the phrase maneuver warfare
[00:13:35] maneuver means much more
[00:13:37] Only recently has someone suggested a convincing answer of what maneuver means
[00:13:43] That man is a retired air force colonel and fighter pilot named John Boyd
[00:13:49] Colonel Boyd's development of the theory of maneuver warfare began not with ground battles
[00:13:54] But with a study of some mock air to air combat exercises
[00:13:59] Conducted at Nella's air force base in 1974 that led him back to the study of air to air combat during the Korean war
[00:14:06] American aviators were very successful in that conflict they achieved a 10 to one kill ratio
[00:14:12] Over their North Korean and Chinese opponents Colonel Boyd began his study with the question how and why did we do so well?
[00:14:23] He noted in several tradition he noted that in several traditional measures of aircraft performance
[00:14:29] The principal communist fighter the Meg 15 was superior to the American F86
[00:14:36] So you might think oh Americans always have the best technology not true
[00:14:39] So and and Boyd will end up doing boyd we're gonna hear quite a bit about him right now
[00:14:44] But this guy was sort of a strategic genius in the air force and a bunch of people on Twitter
[00:14:49] Hit me and social media have always been saying you got to do boy. You got to do boy
[00:14:53] And I know I got to do boy to some point and this is sort of a good introduction to boyd
[00:14:57] So
[00:14:58] Here's the here's the difference between the Meg 15 and the American F86
[00:15:04] The Meg 15 it could climb and accelerate faster and it had better sustain turn rate
[00:15:10] But in two less obvious measures of aircraft performance the F86 was much superior to the Meg
[00:15:17] First the pilot could see out much better the F86 bubble canopy gave its pilot very good outward vision
[00:15:26] While the Meg's faired faired canopy made it difficult to see out
[00:15:30] Second the F86 had a high powered and highly effective hydraulic controls and the Meg did not
[00:15:39] This meant that while the Meg could do many individual actions
[00:15:44] Including turn climb and accelerate better than the F86 the F86 could transition from one action to another much more quickly than the Meg
[00:15:55] It was better in the transition
[00:15:57] So for all you did it super players we start that scramble you start that scramble the the F86 is a better scramble
[00:16:06] Using these two superior to use the American pilots developed a tactical approach that forced the Meg into a series of actions each
[00:16:15] Each time the action changed the F86 gained a time advantage because the F86 pilot could see more quickly how the situation had changed
[00:16:24] And he could also make his aircraft shift more quickly to a new action
[00:16:29] So he can see what's happening faster than once he sees it which he saw faster now he can make his adjustment faster
[00:16:37] With each change the Meg's actions became more
[00:16:41] inappropriate until they were so inappropriate that the Meg gave the F86 a good firing opportunity
[00:16:48] Often it appeared the Meg pilot realized what was happening to him in panic
[00:16:51] Which made the American pilots job all the easier
[00:16:56] Later Colonel Boyd began studying ground combat to see if there were any situation similar to that
[00:17:02] He had found in the air war over Korea
[00:17:05] He found that in battles campaigns in wars like Vixberg and France a
[00:17:11] Similar thing seemed to have happened
[00:17:13] One side had presented the other with a sudden unexpected change or a series of such changes to which it could not adjust in a timely manner as a result
[00:17:23] It was defeated and it was generally defeated at small costs as a divector
[00:17:28] Often the losing side had been physically stronger than the winner just like the Meg 15 was was physically faster
[00:17:37] It didn't matter
[00:17:39] And often the same sort of panic and paralysis the North Korean and Chinese pilots had shown seemed to occur
[00:17:49] Colonel Boyd asked himself what did all these cases have in common?
[00:17:54] His answer was what is now called the Boyd theory
[00:17:58] Which is the theory of maneuver warfare
[00:18:02] The briefing Colonel Boyd gives to explain his theory patterns of conflict takes over five hours
[00:18:08] So he's so the so Colonel Boyd does give this brief and it takes over five hours or he did when he was when he was alive
[00:18:15] But at the cost of missing some of the subtleties and supporting historical evidence in the briefing it can be summarized as follows
[00:18:21] So here's a kind of a synopsis of the Boyd theory that
[00:18:26] Lin is gonna put together for us right now
[00:18:29] Back to the book
[00:18:31] Conflict can be seen as time competitive observation orientation decision action cycles
[00:18:39] Each party to a conflict begins by observing
[00:18:43] He observes himself his physical surroundings and his enemy
[00:18:47] On the basis of his observatory observation he oryons that is to say he makes a mental image or snapshot of his situation
[00:18:55] On the basis of this orientation he makes a decision
[00:18:58] He puts the decision into effect i.e. he acts
[00:19:02] Then because he assumes his action has changed the situation
[00:19:06] He observes again and starts the process a new his actions follow a cycle
[00:19:12] Sometimes called the Boyd cycle or Ud aloup and Ud is O O DA and that's observed oriented side and act
[00:19:20] If one side in a conflict can consistently go through the Boyd cycle faster than the other it gains a tremendous event advantage
[00:19:31] By the time the slower side acts the faster side is doing something different from what he observed and his action is inappropriate
[00:19:40] With each cycle the slower parties action is inappropriately
[00:19:44] Is inappropriate by a larger time margin
[00:19:46] Even though he desperately strives to do something that will work each action is less useful than its predecessor
[00:19:52] He falls further and further behind
[00:19:55] Ultimately he ceases to be effective
[00:19:59] And he we clearly I mean that this is obvious in combat. It's also obvious in in jujitsu
[00:20:04] I mean very clear when you're training when you're wrong with somebody
[00:20:07] If if they're not making adjustments fast enough you just it's two or three two or three transitions and you got them you're on their back. You know
[00:20:18] The Boyd Fury defines what is meant by the word maneuver in the term maneuver warfare
[00:20:25] Manuver means Boyd cycling
[00:20:27] Boyd cycling the enemy being consistently faster through however many Ud aloups it takes until the enemy loses its cohesion until he can no longer fight
[00:20:35] Isn't effective organized force
[00:20:38] Sometimes a Boyd cycle the enemy panics or becomes passive
[00:20:41] This is an ideal outcome for the victor because a panicked passive enemy can be annihilated or captured at the lowest cost in friendly casualties
[00:20:51] At other times the outmaneuvered enemy may continue to fight as individuals or small units
[00:20:56] But because he can no longer act effectively as a force he is comparatively easy to destroy so
[00:21:07] Continuing on if the object in maneuver warfare is to move through the Ud aloups faster than the enemy
[00:21:13] What do you need to do?
[00:21:15] How can you be consistently faster?
[00:21:18] Much of the much of the rest of this book is an effort to address that question
[00:21:22] But in terms of general theory the following points are worth thinking about
[00:21:28] one
[00:21:29] Only a decentralized military can have a fast-oot aloup
[00:21:35] If the observations must be passed up the chain of command the orientation made in the decision taken at a high level and the command for action
[00:21:43] Then transmitted back down the chain the Ud aloup is going to be slow
[00:21:47] As the Israeli military historian Martin van Crevel has observed from Plato to NATO
[00:21:58] The history of command and war consists of an endless quest for certainty
[00:22:04] Certainty concerning the state and intention of the enemy's forces certain de-concerning the manifold factors
[00:22:10] Which together constitute the environment from the weather and the terrain to the radioactivity and presence of chemical warfare agents and
[00:22:19] Last but definitely not least
[00:22:21] Certainty concerning the state and activities of one's own forces
[00:22:25] Historical commanders have always faced the choice between two basic ways of coping with uncertainty
[00:22:33] One was to construct an army of automatons following the orders of a single man
[00:22:38] Allowed to do only that which could be controlled
[00:22:43] That's centralized command the other to design organizations and operations in such a way as to enable the former to carry out the latter without the need for continuous control
[00:22:56] This second the second of these methods has that's decentralized command
[00:23:01] The second of these methods has to buy and large proved more successful than the first and
[00:23:06] The ongoing revolution in the technology of command notwithstanding this is likely to remain so in the future and indeed so long as war itself exists
[00:23:20] Very obvious stuff and again, you know in in our book
[00:23:25] Stream ownership. That's one of the principles of combat decentralized command and this is what it is if you don't have decentralized command
[00:23:33] That you have to report up the chain of command that takes time by the time it gets back down
[00:23:40] What the decision decision gets made at the higher level than they pass it back down to you
[00:23:45] By the time it gets to you it's already changed and that's in a jiu-jitsu in a jitsu
[00:23:52] comparison if you if you if you have to think about your moves, so you have instinct to lose muscle memory when somebody
[00:23:59] Starts the pass your guard you get the underlock if you have to think about getting the underhook
[00:24:04] And you have to command your body to get the underhook there. You got the underhook on you. Yeah, so it's the same thing here. That's the dead's decentralized command
[00:24:13] Back to the book number two maneuver warfare means you will not only accept confusion and disorder and
[00:24:20] Operate successfully within it through decentralization you will also
[00:24:24] Generate confusion and disorder. I love that that's just awesome right? It's not just saying hey look things great confusing
[00:24:32] But I'm actually going to create the confusion. I'm going to make it happen that's something any
[00:24:37] When you see the really good jiu-jitsu guys, I mean Glover does that Glover creates confusion
[00:24:40] He creates mayhem he creates chaos and the gate in the in a match. He wants the scrambled to happen. He wants to go as long as possible
[00:24:47] The reconnaissance pull tactics of the German blitzkrieg were inherently disorderly now this is something that's very
[00:24:56] Contrary to what people think of of the German military and even the German culture
[00:25:01] German culture is very orderly and here we say the the blitzkrieg was inherently disorderly
[00:25:08] Back to the book higher headquarters could neither direct nor predict the exact path of the advance
[00:25:13] But the multitude of German reconnaissance thrust generated massive confusion among the French in 1940
[00:25:20] Each was reported as a new attack the German seemed to be everywhere and the French who system demanded certainty before making any decisions were paralyzed
[00:25:32] It's it's very interesting to think about that idea of
[00:25:36] We all want to have certainty and what's going to happen and how in in battle and in life if you wait until you're 100% certain you're probably going to be too late
[00:25:51] Speaking of certainty three all patterns recipes and formulas are to be avoided
[00:25:58] The enemy must not be able to predict your actions if your tactics follow predictable patterns
[00:26:04] The enemy can easily cut inside your utaloupe if you can predict what you will do you will be waiting for you
[00:26:12] This is why it's so hard to tell someone how to do maneuver warfare
[00:26:17] There is no formula you can learn when someone says
[00:26:22] Cut all the bull about theory just tell me what to do you can't
[00:26:27] You can talk about how to think and about some useful techniques
[00:26:31] But you can't give new formulas to replace the ones currently taught
[00:26:37] Instead of a checklist or a cookbook
[00:26:39] maneuver warfare requires commanders who can sense more than they can see
[00:26:44] Who understand the opponent's strengths and weaknesses and their own and who can find the enemies critical weaknesses in a specific situation
[00:26:53] They must be able to create multiple threats and keep the enemy uncertain as to which one is real
[00:26:58] They must be able to see their options in the situation before them
[00:27:04] Constantly create new options and shift rapidly among options as the situation develops
[00:27:12] General Herman bulk one of the most successful practitioners of maneuver warfare said
[00:27:18] I'm against the school approach that says in accordance with the ideas of the general staff in this situation
[00:27:23] You must do thus and such
[00:27:25] On the contrary you must proceed as dictated by the personalities involved and the particulars of the situation
[00:27:35] So he got a German successful German general and he's actually saying you react based
[00:27:42] Not just on the situation of the of the on the ground but on the personalities involved
[00:27:47] Leadership is an art my friend
[00:27:56] Therefore one of the first principles has to be there can be no fixed schemes
[00:28:02] Every scheme every pattern is wrong
[00:28:06] No two situations are identical that is why the study of military history can be extremely dangerous
[00:28:12] Another principle that follows from is from this is never do the same thing twice
[00:28:19] Even if something works well for you once by the second time the enemy will have adapted
[00:28:23] So you have to think of something new
[00:28:27] No one thinks of becoming a great painter simply by imitating Michelangelo
[00:28:33] Similarly you can't become a great military leader just by imitating someone
[00:28:38] It has to come from within in the last analysis military command is an art
[00:28:46] One man can do it and most will never learn
[00:28:53] Little bit of maneuver warfare and
[00:28:57] So so at the the way the book is broken up this book is called maneuver warfare handbook it's it goes into
[00:29:05] to
[00:29:07] breaks into another
[00:29:09] section which we're gonna get to in a minute
[00:29:12] But he kind of goes into a little bit will end go now goes into a little bit talking about education and training
[00:29:20] Back to the book it is my great and this is a quote it is my great and constant hope
[00:29:26] That the Marine Coral will produce some outstanding man for this country such man are somewhere and they may as well be in our classes
[00:29:34] Is anywhere else? I do not want such a person to be hammered down by narrowness and dogmas
[00:29:42] to have his mind cramped by compulsory details
[00:29:46] It is my constant ambition to see the Marine officers filled with ambition
[00:29:52] Initiative and originality and they can get these attributes only by liberal
[00:29:59] Liberality of thought broad thought that differs thought that differs from precedent and the compulsory imprint of others
[00:30:11] And that is a long paragraph
[00:30:14] That says free your mind
[00:30:17] Free your mind and I love pointing us out because this is the Marine Corps
[00:30:22] That's that that quote is from the common dawn of Marine Corps schools Brigadier general
[00:30:27] J.C. Breckenridge written in 1934 in
[00:30:32] 1934 he was saying people Marine Corps officers
[00:30:38] Don't go by the book
[00:30:40] Don't obey what other people said he wants him filled with ambition. That's pretty normal
[00:30:44] But initiative and originality
[00:30:48] He's telling in order to be a good leader
[00:30:52] You got to free your mind
[00:30:54] Now like I said the book makes a transition from being the
[00:31:02] From being the introduction
[00:31:05] by William Lind about maneuver warfare and then it slides into another section
[00:31:11] Which is just about as big and this this part is called fundamentals of tactics and this section is
[00:31:18] Written by Colonel Michael D. Wiley United says Marine Corps and he ran a course
[00:31:26] Fundamentals of tactics course and this is
[00:31:30] Sort of the this is the this is the notes from the course when he would teach this course the fundamentals of tactics and a Colonel Wiley
[00:31:36] Kind of interesting he went to the
[00:31:38] Went to the using elisted marine then he went to the naval academy and he was
[00:31:44] Jim webs
[00:31:46] Company commander in Vietnam Vietnam and and Jim web is a fairly
[00:31:52] Famous guy he was a navy cross winner. He is a set now a he was a senator from Virginia
[00:32:00] He wrote a book called
[00:32:03] Fields of fire and then there's another great book called
[00:32:08] The Night and Gale song which is he follows a couple
[00:32:12] five
[00:32:14] So yeah, I think it's it's a web McCain all over north
[00:32:22] Macphorland I think and and John point actually anyways very prominent
[00:32:27] Graduates from the naval academy that all kind of stood out and were were connected
[00:32:33] Throughout the book so this guy so Jim web is this is this kind of famous guy and this guy that wrote this was was Jim web's company commander in Vietnam
[00:32:42] So that's
[00:32:45] Kind of it's a small world things tie together
[00:32:49] So now we get into these lectures that you wrote and I don't mean the lecture anybody but
[00:32:55] Hey, they're called lectures in this book. I would just call them free-frow information
[00:32:59] We're gonna learn from in the first the first section is called surfaces and gaps
[00:33:05] The concept of surfaces and gaps is one of several concepts that bear on tactics
[00:33:13] It is unimportant whether you refer to this concept as surfaces and gaps or soft spot tactics or simply the idea of
[00:33:21] Pitting your strength against the enemies weaknesses
[00:33:26] That is what it is all about strength against weakness call it what you will the term
[00:33:31] Surfaces and gaps is derived from a German term flaking on the lukin tactic
[00:33:39] Which means simply the tactics of surfaces and gaps the surfaces being the enemy strong points
[00:33:46] Which we avoid the gaps being the weak points that we want to go through
[00:33:52] Now La Delle Hart if we talked about already today
[00:33:54] Called it the expanding torrent system tactic he drew an analogy between attacking an attacking army and a torrent of water
[00:34:07] If we watch a torrent bearing down on each successive bank of earth and damn in its path
[00:34:12] We see that it first beats against the obstacle feeling and testing it on all points
[00:34:18] Eventually it falls it finds a small crack
[00:34:20] Through this crack pour the first driplets of water and rush straight on the pent-up water on each side is drawn towards the breach
[00:34:30] It swirls through around the flanks of the breach wearing away the earth on each side and so widening the gap
[00:34:37] Simultaneously the water behind poor straight through that breach between this the side eti's which are wearing away the flanks
[00:34:44] Directly it is passed through it expands to widen once more
[00:34:48] The on-reach of the turn of the torrent
[00:34:52] Thus as the water pours through it in and an ever increasing volume the on-reach of the torrent swells to its original proportion
[00:35:00] Leaving in turn each crumbling obstacle behind it
[00:35:05] Long paragraph
[00:35:08] But that's how water gets through things finds the weak point and piles on
[00:35:12] The idea of putting surfaces and gaps tactics into practice was first implemented by the German army in world war one
[00:35:22] This is stuff that everybody should know especially military people in 1918 as they prepared for
[00:35:28] Ludendorf spring offensive the German army changed its offensive tactics
[00:35:33] The Germans had found that they were being overpowered by the material available to the British and the French
[00:35:38] The Americans were coming and it was clear that Germany was going to lose if she did not do something differently
[00:35:45] Because they did not have the option of matching the allies strength and material the Germans decided that they would have to outthink them
[00:35:53] That is they would have to have better tactics
[00:35:57] Germany did not succeed in winning the war it was too late by this time they were surrounded
[00:36:03] The women and children were starving at home. It was simply too late for them to win
[00:36:07] Yet they made some tactical progress
[00:36:11] There at the last at last in the spring of 1918
[00:36:16] They inflicted terrible defeats on their enemies to the point that the allied armies were seriously
[00:36:21] Considering the prospect of giving up
[00:36:24] At the tactical level the Germans put their strength against weakness
[00:36:28] They sought the gaps
[00:36:30] Small assault groups called storm groupin sought gaps in the enemy lines and attacked through them
[00:36:36] Assaulting with light machine guns rifles grenades and flame throwers while heavy machine guns
[00:36:41] Direct and indirect weapons including trench mortars were used to suppress enemy strong points
[00:36:47] But on a strategic level the spring of 1918 offensive failed
[00:36:53] Why because looting duff on that level put strength against strength?
[00:36:59] He was seeking gaps he was seeking gaps at the enemy strong points. That's a very
[00:37:07] Great information to have so yeah the guys on the ground were attacking the weak points
[00:37:12] But the strategic picture they were still attacking a strong area
[00:37:17] So you might have found a little weakness in a wall a little weakness in the wire a little weakness in the trench
[00:37:21] But they were attacking a let's say at 20 mile trench that was overall was a strong area
[00:37:26] Whereas they should have looked for where the flanks are a hundred miles away
[00:37:32] Back to the book the idea of putting strength against weakness was of course born way before 1918
[00:37:39] Clouse fits rights about it in chapter nine and ten of book seven in chapter nine
[00:37:45] Regarding defense of positions he states
[00:37:48] The attack cannot prevail against them it has no means at its disposal to counteract their advantage
[00:37:55] In practice not all defensive positions are like this if the attacker sees that he can get away without assaulting them
[00:38:03] It would be stupid of him not to attempt it. It would be super to him to attempt it
[00:38:08] It is a risky business to attack an able opponent in a good position
[00:38:13] Same thing we heard from Sunsu you don't attack never heavily defended positions
[00:38:18] Back to the book employment of this concept of surfaces and gaps then gives us many advantages over what could be called
[00:38:28] slower moving forms of combat where strength is thrown against strength
[00:38:33] Attacking through gaps avoiding surfaces gives us an advantage of economy of force
[00:38:39] If we are pitted strength against strength assaulting enemy strong points
[00:38:43] We are consuming our manpower as well as ammunition to supplies as we go along
[00:38:47] If we go through the gaps
[00:38:50] We are practicing economy of force
[00:38:52] We are reaching our objective without using up our men
[00:38:55] We are leaving the enemy behind because we are moving faster we have the advantage of rapid exploitation
[00:39:03] So when you attack obviously attack weaknesses
[00:39:06] You lose less be lose less men
[00:39:08] Now this is important the concept of surfaces and gaps demands leadership from the front as opposed to leadership from the rear
[00:39:18] The commander must be where he can make swift decisions
[00:39:21] He must be where the situation is developing
[00:39:24] Obviously leadership from the front had become a scarcity in world war one
[00:39:30] JFC follower in his book general ship wrote
[00:39:33] In the world war nothing was more dreadful to witness than a chain of men
[00:39:39] Starting with a batying commander and ending with an army commander sitting in telephone boxes improvised or actual talking talking
[00:39:50] In place of leading leading
[00:39:52] leading
[00:39:53] The result was unresponsive leadership and slow reactions
[00:39:58] We talked about this on the last podcast when life was talking about being in an assault force and being in the assault train
[00:40:06] Which is 20 guys 15 or 20 guys and he was standing always at the end of the train because that's where you was told he was supposed to be
[00:40:14] And he didn't know what's going on the front so he couldn't help he couldn't make any decisions if someone was gonna if he needed to make a decision
[00:40:20] Well, he couldn't even make a decision because he knows what's going on up there
[00:40:23] But if someone said hey, we need a decision from the boss they had to pass that word all the way back. No, not good
[00:40:31] So you got to lead from the front with decentralized command and
[00:40:36] Be far enough the final one. I don't want to make it sound that simple you got to be it's the same thing we talked about life
[00:40:40] You got to be far enough forward that you can
[00:40:44] Understand what's happening up there and
[00:40:45] And obviously, but you don't want to be the guy that's doing the shooting because then you've gone too far far forward to actually be detached and make decisions
[00:40:56] Certainly combat is not going to be that simple the gap then might be any
[00:41:01] Undefended point or any weekly defended point it may be any enemy vulnerability
[00:41:07] It might be the enemies flanks
[00:41:09] The term flank itself needs some elaboration think of it as a relative thing
[00:41:16] John Boyd defines a flank as that aspect that aspect
[00:41:20] Toward which a force is not devoting its primary attention
[00:41:24] In other words in fluid warfare what is one moment the enemy's flank might the next moment be the enemy's front?
[00:41:31] It depends on how he is directing his attention a
[00:41:34] Gap for the infantry could be an enemy missile site manned by troops who are not combat oriented
[00:41:40] The missile site might be a surface if you are flying on an airplane, but a gap if you were a light infantryman who has gotten inside enemy lines
[00:41:52] So
[00:41:53] It does that make sense to you so if you've got a if you've got a surface to air missile
[00:41:57] Launcher and it it has a radio or radar on it and it can track aircraft coming in and if you're a fighter aircraft
[00:42:07] You don't want to say what you want to stay away from that thing because it'll get you locked on radar
[00:42:10] It's gonna fire a heat-seeking missile at you and kill you
[00:42:14] So for them it's a surface it's a strong point for an aircraft it's a strong point
[00:42:18] But for a ground troop
[00:42:20] They don't put you know the highest level of troops
[00:42:22] Guarding these things because they're in the rear a little bit they put like kind of you know some what they call him here
[00:42:30] They're manned by troops who are not combat oriented so that means it's a softer target
[00:42:38] Back to the book. Let us say we are unsuccessful in finding any gaps
[00:42:44] We may have to create gaps and there are ways of doing this
[00:42:48] So then they talk about the ways you can do it you can do it through fire power of a drop in bombs by suppression by assault
[00:42:56] All those different ways to create gaps with you know using direct fire to soften up targets
[00:43:04] And then then I like these tactics a little bit better another way of creating gaps is through supporting attacks by attacking one point along the line
[00:43:11] We may divert the enemy from another point and by drawing them off created gap again this is in linear terms for instructional purposes for simplicity
[00:43:22] But do not get a linear mindset
[00:43:25] Sometimes a less costly way of creating a gap is through deception by causing the enemy to think that we will attack at one point
[00:43:32] There by enticing him to draw his forces off from another point
[00:43:35] And when he attack that point where he has weakened himself
[00:43:41] But what do we do about surfaces that is strong points?
[00:43:45] Sometimes they are best bypassed
[00:43:48] Once the enemy has been bypassed as strong point maybe cut off from its support and in that way his strong point eventually withers
[00:43:54] Away and becomes a weak point which we can attack later
[00:43:58] You know we talk a lot here about not attacking people's defensible positions and this is just a classic another way of saying that
[00:44:10] You know we talk about people with got the ego the big ego and how you don't want to confront that ego
[00:44:15] Well if you can bypass the ego eventually the ego doesn't become a factor anymore
[00:44:20] And that's the same thing when you're doing ground combat
[00:44:23] Back to the book you're certain problems presented by the concept of surfaces and gaps especially to commanders who are used to slow moving forms of combat
[00:44:33] One is that the commander will not always know where all his people are
[00:44:38] In the Marine Corps we have become used to being accountable at all times for knowing exactly where every man is
[00:44:45] In this faster moving form of combat to do so would be impossible
[00:44:49] Your subordinates are finding the gaps and exploiting them so you've got you if you're control freak
[00:44:57] You're not gonna be able to pull this off
[00:44:59] Because I'm saying where are you echo where are you echo where are you? No echo is out there. He's working. He's finding some gaps to get through
[00:45:06] Not no exactly where he is
[00:45:08] Another problem is that artillery in air might not be
[00:45:11] May not be controlled as closely as is possible in slowing slower moving forms of combat so you start to
[00:45:19] Deal with the problems of of air support and artillery is a little trickier to use because you have people moving
[00:45:26] Around the battlefield and you're not sure where everyone is and that makes it very difficult
[00:45:30] Because you obviously don't want to drop bombs on your own people
[00:45:33] Another problem associated with the concept of surfaces and gaps is that as we penetrate deeply
[00:45:38] Often on narrow fronts our flanks become exposed
[00:45:43] There are however compensating factors again related to speed
[00:45:47] We are moving quickly the enemy is always off balance remember the old adage there is security in speed
[00:45:55] So in other words as you penetrate into a into a zone you're gonna be exposed a little bit
[00:46:00] But if you're moving fast you can deal with that exposure
[00:46:08] Critics of these faster moving forms of combat characterized by initiative at the low level fear that they will lead groups
[00:46:17] To groups of men moving willy nearly about the battlefield and that commanders will lose control
[00:46:23] So people say oh, you know if I give so much so much initiative at the low level
[00:46:27] I'm gonna lose control of it and people are gonna be running around like chickens with their heads cut off
[00:46:33] This need not be so if the concept of surfaces and gaps is employed properly it will not be so
[00:46:40] That is why we have control measures the boundary the limit of advance the phase line can still be used
[00:46:46] It must be remembered that these control measures should serve their function
[00:46:50] But not be rigid lines that cannot be changed or ignored when the situation changes
[00:46:55] They should be kept to a minimum and must always be flexible
[00:47:00] The tactics must never follow the control measures on the contrary the control measures must follow the tactics
[00:47:08] And the tactics must always be based on the enemy
[00:47:12] Other concepts that will be discussed in the chapters ahead especially that of the main effort
[00:47:19] Give us meaning gives us means of keeping control over our troops and preventing a situation where they can be said to be moving
[00:47:27] Willy nearly about the battlefield
[00:47:30] So decentralized command it it is challenging and
[00:47:35] If you don't do it right you will have chaos
[00:47:40] So now we get into the next section
[00:47:42] It does say lecture again, but again, I'm not here to lecture anybody. I don't think I don't think I can pull that off
[00:47:50] The concept this one this section is called mission tactics
[00:47:57] The concept of mission tactics like surfaces and gaps must always be at work in battle
[00:48:03] The name is the name is derived from the German
[00:48:06] Alph-Trags tactic which means literally mission tactics
[00:48:13] It is no accident that the naming includes the word tactics
[00:48:17] Assigning a mission and depending on subordinates to carry it out
[00:48:22] Constituits the tactic to allow the subordinate to decide on his own initiative
[00:48:29] What to do is the means of getting the most appropriate decisions made on the spot and acted on
[00:48:36] More rapidly than the enemy can respond to your actions
[00:48:41] Gotta get your subordinate
[00:48:43] Leadership to lead you want them to lead
[00:48:49] This is the account of Prince Frederick Charles who is giving a tonn Lashing to one of his majors for committing a tactical
[00:48:56] Blunder in defensive his action the major explain that he was only following orders
[00:49:00] In the press and army the major reminded the prince and order from a senior officer was tentant about to an order from the king
[00:49:08] The prince was on impressed
[00:49:10] His reply to the major was the king made you a major because he thought you were smart enough to know when not to obey orders
[00:49:20] And that is the essence of mission tactics the subordinate decides what to do even if even if it means that the order
[00:49:28] Issued by his senior now should be changed or adjusted the mission assigned is sacred the mission is the output that the commander wants
[00:49:38] That does not change but how that output is to be achieved may change and it's up to the intelligent
[00:49:47] Subordinate to decide whether or not it has
[00:49:54] total
[00:49:56] freedom
[00:49:57] for the subordinate leadership
[00:50:00] to figure out how they want to make this happen. They know what they need to get done
[00:50:05] But they they have the freedom to figure out how they're gonna make it happen
[00:50:10] Back to the book there is a classic example used time and time again and introducing the student to mission tactics
[00:50:16] It is simple and a value so we'll be used to get here the subordinate is giving the mission of getting his unit across the river
[00:50:22] Getting his unit across the river is the output the senior desires
[00:50:26] The route that he has been given crosses the nearest bridge the junior commander arrives at the site to find that the bridge is been destroyed
[00:50:33] He does not stop he does not wait for new orders. He does not request permission to change his route
[00:50:40] He goes to the nearest forward several kilometers distance and he crosses there
[00:50:44] He informs the senior of course as soon as he can but he does not wait
[00:50:49] Remember mission orders are necessary to give the tempo of operations the rapidity that it must have
[00:50:55] If we are to keep the enemy off balance so that's a very simple example
[00:51:00] I tell echo hey
[00:51:01] I need your I need your troops across that river go across that bridge you get there the bridges out
[00:51:06] You're like oh, I'm still gonna get across the river here. Let's find a point in the place
[00:51:10] We can go across or let's make it happen and you're gonna make it happen
[00:51:14] Not gonna bother me you're not gonna call me back. You know me hey the bridge is out. We'll meet you now
[00:51:20] Something that this is a little bit
[00:51:22] This is a little bit simplified because the reality is if you're gonna start moving kilometers away from where I anticipated you being
[00:51:29] You need to tell me that you're moving you need to tell me because I might have other friendly units in the area that might
[00:51:35] Don't expect you I might have big drop in bombs in that area
[00:51:38] So this is this is actually leaving out some critical coordination that does have to happen
[00:51:43] But the initiative to make it happen should happen. Yeah, it seems like you
[00:51:47] Like in the in the process of that decentralized command the person carrying out the order is
[00:51:54] It's kind of to his discretion how much?
[00:51:57] He's gonna deviate when something changes like he can't he's of course is gonna deviate
[00:52:01] He's gonna make those adjustments, but you don't want a deviate too much right and and honestly
[00:52:06] If I was to give you directions hey echo I need you going to cry. I need you across the river
[00:52:10] I would literally give you some parameters to work with it. I say don't go don't go further south than this area than this road
[00:52:16] And don't go further north than this you can do whatever you want inside of here
[00:52:19] So now you can do whatever you want inside that box. Yeah, and how you always talk about you
[00:52:23] You'll say like why are you going across the river as well? Yeah
[00:52:29] And for speaking of why and here's another example of mission orders
[00:52:35] This is an actual example
[00:52:37] C's control of root six west of the muddy river in order to destroy enemy forces attempting to escape from company
[00:52:46] Bravo's zone of action
[00:52:50] So
[00:52:51] It's telling you the why that's what the in order to is notice in the mission order the phrase in order to
[00:52:58] That is a very important phrase and usually ought to go in the mission order
[00:53:02] There's no rule that every mission order contain the phrase in order to if you were told attack the enemy company that you see in front of you
[00:53:09] It would probably be highly superfluous to tell you why
[00:53:12] They are there they are threat why waste the breath
[00:53:16] But usually your mission order will have the ability to endure time better if you explain the
[00:53:22] Spordinate why he is carrying the mission out so you called the seco turning to a little tactical genius over there. Aren't you?
[00:53:29] In order to this gives
[00:53:33] the order the quality that Eric von Mannstein called long term it can endure the test of time your commander can lose
[00:53:41] Communication with you yet you can still carry out his intent because you know what he wanted and you can
[00:53:47] Continue to act within his intent for a long time without checking back
[00:53:52] Understand why as briefed by
[00:53:55] Lieutenant Colonel echo Charles
[00:54:02] Fixed rules are not appropriate in instructing how to as how to assign missions to often students reject good ideas about tactics
[00:54:10] Because they cannot get their thoughts to fit the format of the operation order that is
[00:54:16] Being demanded the important thing is that the mission be clear
[00:54:21] Compared to clarity format is of little or no consequence
[00:54:27] Then this is
[00:54:28] We talk about it in extreme ownership that these massive power point briefs that
[00:54:33] I mean hundreds literally you know hundred to 150 slides to try and make the
[00:54:40] To try and brief a mission when and and the leaders would away so much time trying to put these briefs together
[00:54:46] And and they would they wouldn't do the planning that they're supposed to be doing they wouldn't be thinking
[00:54:51] They'd be building power point slides and I've just had to get these guys to think and
[00:54:57] Stop stop working on the power points. Stop trying to match your font
[00:55:01] Chop time to equalize the huge on each slide to make it look pretty no don't care
[00:55:06] What I want you to think and I want clarity of mission is the most important thing the matter of fact
[00:55:11] I didn't want guys running training and any guy says to me it's one of the one of the task units commanders and he says hey, you know
[00:55:18] What is it what is it that you're looking for in the brief and he's you know trying to figure out how many slides do I want to see and what format do I want to see and I said
[00:55:26] What I want for the brief is that your men understand the operation
[00:55:32] boom
[00:55:34] Back to the book the subordinate receiving that order must be more talented amateur troops awkward clumsy
[00:55:44] Untrained troops cannot be expected to carry out mission orders why?
[00:55:49] Because as a result of their lack of experience they must be told what to do only the professional experience leader
[00:55:55] Can know what to do without being told what to do because we in the Marine Corps set our standard side
[00:56:02] We expect that our subordinates will train until they can perform under mission orders
[00:56:07] So just I don't know if I made this clear or if I breeze over this part mission orders is exactly
[00:56:12] What we're talking about when it comes to hey just tell the person
[00:56:16] This is what I need done
[00:56:18] And this is why I want it done you figured out as opposed to telling them exactly what you want them to do
[00:56:24] Commander sent him yes indeed commanders intent
[00:56:27] burdens of responsibility increase on both sides on the part of the senior commander so when you're doing mission orders
[00:56:37] The burden of responsibility increases on the part of the senior commander and on the part of the subordinate
[00:56:43] Look first at the senior commander operating with mission orders his orders must be perfectly clear
[00:56:50] The onus is on the senior to define to the junior what must be accomplished without telling him how to do it
[00:56:56] The onus is not on the junior to fair it out what his commander wants
[00:57:02] The senior must state what he wants otherwise he should not expect to get it now I actually when I when I teach people this
[00:57:10] I tell them that the onus is on the junior and if if I tell you to do some
[00:57:14] And you don't understand why you're doing it and you don't understand what my intent is and you still go in the field and try and do it
[00:57:19] I blame you I mean it's my fault too, but we're both taking ownership
[00:57:23] Might even say we're taking extreme ownership of the situation, but really if your boss isn't telling you why you're why you're
[00:57:29] Why they're telling you to do something you just raise your hand and ask K boss
[00:57:33] What's your objective here what's your overall intent? What's the commanders intent? Because I want to make sure if I lose communications with you
[00:57:39] I can continue to execute towards your desired end state. So we're looking for
[00:57:48] An additional burden of responsibility on the seniors that he must train his subordinates and his unit to
[00:57:53] Operate as a team they are not going to be able to perform mission orders without training
[00:58:00] Another new burden of responsibility is that he must expect his subordinates to make mistakes
[00:58:05] He may not expect zero defects wars are one by people not machines people make mistakes
[00:58:12] If people are more afraid of making mistakes
[00:58:14] Then they are of exercising initiative now and then they will not take risks and they will not exercise initiative
[00:58:20] Furthermore, they will not win in war
[00:58:26] Perhaps the most important new responsibility is placed on the commander who gives mission orders is that he must trust his subordinates
[00:58:34] If trust breaks down the whole system breaks down
[00:58:38] So people ask me about trust from time to time and
[00:58:43] It's absolutely I use I've talked about relationships the R word and that's what that's what it is and
[00:58:49] Lief and I talked about the other day on the podcast is that just building trust how but one of the best ways to build trust is
[00:58:56] Give it I give it and so that's what goes back and forth and in the military you do that when you're in the training environment
[00:59:03] When there's no risk
[00:59:05] Or very very tiny risk of life and limb. There's no strategic left you're not your risk
[00:59:09] You're not going to lose the war so I'm going to let you run with stuff
[00:59:12] I want you to learn I want you to take risk and if you fail if you screw something up
[00:59:15] I don't try and fire you we try and learn from it and that encourages you to take initiative and keep getting after it
[00:59:30] Now the the we're moving to the next section
[00:59:36] Which is called the main effort
[00:59:38] the commander in making his plan must determine what and where his main effort is in every
[00:59:47] Operation whether it be offensive defensive or withdrawal
[00:59:53] This main effort should be specified in the operation order it should always be clearly stated in paragraph three a the concept of operation
[01:00:01] There can only be one main effort when you start giving two or three or a three part main effort
[01:00:10] You'd better look back at it because the chances are you do you have not made up your mind
[01:00:16] What you are trying to do
[01:00:20] So if you're trying to plan a mission you're telling you're telling people there's three main things
[01:00:25] We're trying to get done no wrong. There should be one yep
[01:00:28] Yeah in message conveyance
[01:00:34] Actually, I think it's a newspaper writing they call it bearing the lead it's like your main story
[01:00:40] Has to you know you can't have three main stories in one article got it because and you know one story is gonna have cool details
[01:00:48] But you start spending a bunch of time on these cool details they call that bearing the lead
[01:00:53] Uh, bad deal and so don't do that on the newspaper business and don't do that on that'll feel
[01:01:02] Every unit commander down to the company commander will always assign a main effort and sometimes even a platoon commander should
[01:01:09] The entire command must be aware of what and where the main effort is
[01:01:16] The commander can change the main effort at any time
[01:01:19] This is what gives the operation its fluidity and and this is one of the
[01:01:26] Pretty common issues that we run it ran into it when I was running training
[01:01:31] Run into it now in the business world where you work with a company and they're not they're not assigning a main effort
[01:01:37] They're concentrating on 14 different things at the same time. They don't prioritize next gives this is another form of prioritize next cute
[01:01:43] And that's a problem because if you're trying to do 14 things it wants you're gonna not the compost any of them
[01:01:52] The German word for main effort is shit-poked
[01:01:57] Anytime in your readings when you see that and often you will see it written in italics the German word shfrit punk
[01:02:03] Take note because it is one of the most important underlying concepts in everything the Germans do
[01:02:08] Make the main effort where the enemy least expects you
[01:02:15] Make the enemy make the main effort where the enemy is weak
[01:02:19] Be prepared to be surprised
[01:02:23] So let's go I gotta stop right there
[01:02:26] It's interesting you know when you see the big fortified area of the enemy you say okay
[01:02:31] We're gonna we better we better attack that hard no wrong answer that's a surface we're looking for gaps so don't make the main effort
[01:02:40] The the strong point make it the weak point back to the book be prepared to be surprised
[01:02:48] Be weary of the council do not ever be surprised in war you will be surprised
[01:02:54] The task is to learn to deal with surprise
[01:02:56] If what you thought would be an enemy weakness becomes the enemy strength you should not be disrupted
[01:03:02] If your taxes tactics are fluid you can deal with surprise you will shift your main effort to enemy weakness and go on through
[01:03:10] That is how the main effort works in the offense
[01:03:16] Fluidity
[01:03:18] Remember we even hear it a lot about in the Vietnam war the the Vietcong were too rigid they would just try their plan
[01:03:23] Didn't have the fluidity the main effort should be directed against enemy weakness not enemy strength
[01:03:30] Here you see the interconnection between the concepts the connection between the concept of the main effort and the concept of surfaces and gaps
[01:03:37] All the concepts are worked together at the same time the main effort cannot be understood in isolation from surfaces and gaps because it is directed against enemy weakness
[01:03:46] And another another
[01:03:55] One of the four laws combat that we talk about in the book extreme ownership is simplicity
[01:04:02] Simple back to the book even the principle of simplicity can be recognized in the concept of the main effort
[01:04:08] Instead of trying to do 10 different things we are focusing on one
[01:04:11] There will be many other efforts going on at the same time, but all in some way
[01:04:16] Directed at making the main effort succeed
[01:04:19] So what do you gain from this main effort?
[01:04:22] You gain direction you great you gain fluidity you gain speed and you prevent
[01:04:29] Disappaining your efforts all over the battlefield
[01:04:33] The way the polls did when the Germans invaded Poland they tried to defend their entire 800 mile front
[01:04:39] There was no main effort and by trying to be strong everywhere
[01:04:44] They weren't fact strong nowhere
[01:04:48] This trying to cover all the bases is a common error in the amateur commanders plan
[01:04:54] It is a symptom of avoidance of decision making avoidance of decision making so if you're not saying hey here's what we're gonna focus on you're just
[01:05:02] I'm gonna wait. I don't want to decide yet. Oh, I'm not ready to commit
[01:05:06] By establishing a main effort you make a clear decision
[01:05:12] You obviate the necessity for junior officers to keep asking for guidance
[01:05:19] If they know their commanders main effort they can continue to operate even though communications may be cut and
[01:05:24] They can continue to operate at a high tempo because they need not keep checking back for new orders
[01:05:31] In here we get to another something you might recognize from from our book
[01:05:41] Stream ownership when the commander has made this decision he has done something very necessary
[01:05:47] He has done something very ethical
[01:05:50] He has assumed and taken responsibility
[01:05:54] For what will happen if the battle goes a ride?
[01:05:57] He cannot blame his subordinates. He can only blame himself. It was he who decided what was to be done
[01:06:05] And designated a main effort in order to do it
[01:06:09] Therefore it takes courage and moral character to select a main effort
[01:06:14] That is why the weak
[01:06:16] Commander and the amateur so often failed to do this in fact the weak commander will actively avoid choosing a main effort
[01:06:24] His very convenient for the commander weak and character to avoid selecting the main effort because if the battle goes on
[01:06:32] Favorably he can blame someone else for the mistake
[01:06:36] The commander who has taken the stand and selected his own main effort cannot do this
[01:06:42] Therefore in a sense the main effort is a moral commitment
[01:06:48] Taking some ownership by selecting the main effort
[01:06:55] And you got to dig that
[01:07:00] The next concept in again, you know I'm I'm cruising through this book like I always do only reading
[01:07:06] I don't know probably
[01:07:09] A very small percentage of it 15 percent and
[01:07:13] There's a ton in here
[01:07:15] And it actually has some very cool
[01:07:20] Like exercises where it gives you a scenario that's happening and you go through and you figure out what you would do and it gives you good solutions
[01:07:27] So it's gotten it's got it's it's a great book to look at
[01:07:31] The next lecture
[01:07:33] Is called the concept of the objective
[01:07:37] According to the chair according to joint chiefs and staff publication number one dictionary of military and associated terms
[01:07:43] The objective is the physical object of the action taken a
[01:07:49] Definite tactical feature seizure and or holding of which is essential to the commander's plan
[01:07:57] That definition is clear enough
[01:08:00] Basel the del heart would have disagreed with the JCS definition at one point in his writings
[01:08:06] The del heart stated the only real objective is the enemy
[01:08:10] The
[01:08:12] The del heart statement is also quite clear and understandable especially when we realize that whether we are attacking or defending the problem is always the enemy
[01:08:21] Once the enemy is taking out of the action defending and attacking are no longer necessary
[01:08:32] Now
[01:08:34] The the
[01:08:36] I guess the controversy here if we could call it that is the objective not being a
[01:08:43] Specific piece of terrain. It's the the objective is the enemy
[01:08:48] But that being said
[01:08:52] The terrain of course is extremely important we must use it to gain advantage
[01:08:57] But the object of the attack is the enemy the objective must be to take the enemy out of action to destroy him to disarm him
[01:09:05] We cannot do that simply by seizing a piece of terrain in holding it we must be prepared to move
[01:09:11] Continually wherever necessary to confuse and disrupt him through a combination of fire and movement
[01:09:20] When the term objective appears it means an aiming point
[01:09:24] That towards which we direct our efforts in order to best use the terrain to accomplish our final goal the destruction of the enemy
[01:09:31] The ability to wisely select an objective is the mark of a good commander
[01:09:40] The inability is the mark of an amateur and history is replete with examples of poorly selected objectives
[01:09:48] There were hills fought for bravely by Marines at Vietnam after they ceased being of any tactical value
[01:09:54] Lives were thrown away for meaningless terrain terrain that did not meet either of the two main criteria for selecting an objective
[01:10:04] two main criteria are one that is loop that it be useful to you or two deer to your enemy
[01:10:13] If it is neither one of these
[01:10:15] It is probably not worth the life of a single Marine
[01:10:19] Any good commander will therefore select terrain that is useful to him
[01:10:25] The great commander will have the ability to select terrain that is deer to the enemy
[01:10:36] In the final concept is the concept of the reserve
[01:10:41] General JFC follower of the British Army the original author of the nine principles of war that the US Army was to adopt in the 1920s
[01:10:53] Once stated that of all the principles he developed the most important was economy of force
[01:10:59] He reasoned that whichever side still had forces left after the other sides had been committed was bound to win
[01:11:05] Napoleon seems to have had similar thoughts when he observed that whoever still had his reserve remaining after his enemy had committed his reserve would win the battle
[01:11:18] And here's another
[01:11:20] quote in here from Napoleon
[01:11:23] That I think when they're talking about committing and it talks about your mindset on the battlefield
[01:11:28] From Napoleon if I appear to be always ready to reply to everything it is because before undertaking anything
[01:11:40] I have meditated for a long time I have for seeing what might happen
[01:11:47] It is not a spirit which suddenly reveals to me what I have to say or do in a circumstances in a circumstance unexpected by others
[01:11:55] It is a reflection a meditation
[01:12:01] So Napoleon he was good to have these quick reactions and everyone says wow he must have just had this
[01:12:06] Incredible you know he's calling a spirit this comes to him and says hey move these guys over here
[01:12:11] Hey, I sold that flag no here. He fought through this thing for hours
[01:12:15] He said if they do this I'm gonna do that if they come over here. I'm gonna be ready over here
[01:12:21] preparation
[01:12:23] What Napoleon was saying was that thorough thought in advance prepared him to make split second decisions when the situation suddenly changed
[01:12:39] Preparation
[01:12:42] Preparation is key
[01:12:44] Now that wraps up the book and I hope that it provides some reminders and some insight to people not only to the war fighters out on the battlefield
[01:12:57] But as I said in the beginning I hope it provides some details in a dealing with humans with people and problems
[01:13:05] In the business world in leadership positions on that you just do math in life
[01:13:15] Whatever you're doing or whatever you're trying to get done think of how you can use maneuver warfare
[01:13:23] To make it happen
[01:13:28] And I guess we can
[01:13:30] Go over to some some questions from the interwebs and
[01:13:38] I guess before we go to the interwebs, maybe you could tell us about the interwebs and
[01:13:44] What we can do to support
[01:13:47] Support by being on interwebs if you're on the interwebs and you're in the mood to support this podcast and or yourself
[01:13:54] With supplementation go to on it dot com slash jockel
[01:14:01] Get on its supplements are the best ones I like that idea. Yeah
[01:14:06] Krill it's a good idea Krill oil for sure for you joint get in
[01:14:10] To bring some of that out for briny yeah some shrimp tech sport mode. Yeah, shrimp tech sport if you're into performance
[01:14:18] Physical activity performance if you feel you need a little turbo boost. Yeah
[01:14:22] Yeah, yeah, I was funny remember
[01:14:26] Tim Kennedy put it in like real real good terms in my opinion when he used like oh
[01:14:32] Yeah, when I took the shrimp tech it's kind of like
[01:14:35] Cuz okay, so you don't want to get confusing be like I'm gonna take the shrimp tech in it's like a like a caffeine boost or something
[01:14:41] You know, you don't because it's not that's not so it's and he put in these terms where he's like you know
[01:14:45] He you go a few rounds you go five six seven and you know however many rounds and everyone's like real poop
[01:14:51] But then you're kind of like I could go a few more rounds and really that is that is exactly how it is
[01:14:56] This one or when you're hitting towards the end of the round or whatever it's like you you feel solid
[01:15:00] You know, just you know, I guess apparently what it does is it helps you utilize your oxygen
[01:15:05] Yeah, and you'll feel like work. I mean obviously you're talking about your jitsu
[01:15:08] Which for those people that don't train jitsu?
[01:15:10] Which you should but if you don't
[01:15:13] Well you should
[01:15:15] But you're also gonna keep working out and you have the
[01:15:18] You know you so sort of a metabolic conditioning type type workout situation going on
[01:15:24] Remember how it's how telling you I did my met come metabolic conditioning after I yes
[01:15:28] Like normal lifting so I'll probably do in the reverse of that lately really
[01:15:33] I don't know I would have I think I was super warmed up. I'm dripping with sweat
[01:15:37] Yeah, and I just and I feel really good and then I figure maybe the opposite will happen because we both know if you go
[01:15:43] With your with your strength movements first you take a little bit off your metcon strike right?
[01:15:49] Yeah, if if you do and so that way when you do
[01:15:52] The metcon fresh you feel like super man right? Yeah, blasted your muscles out
[01:15:57] So I've been doing the reverse though when I'm doing the metcon type
[01:16:02] First and then I just breathe it out and then I get them there and be stuff
[01:16:06] Yeah, and I dig it on the only reason I say I dig it because you're savage like that but
[01:16:11] Consider because those are two what depend depend what kind of lifting you're doing
[01:16:16] Yeah, so let's say if not well if you're lifting like for strength or you know
[01:16:21] Muscle growth or whatever you should do that first because the results you seek are in line with you having full energy
[01:16:28] You lifting I agree with you
[01:16:30] And you think you're correct and the metcon isn't the results of the metcon is for you to recover from conditioning
[01:16:36] See it's muscular conditioning so if you're tired going in
[01:16:39] That's more conditioning you have to recover from better access. Yeah, so it's so essentially
[01:16:44] But hey if you want to reverse it give your body some some some stuff to your health
[01:16:49] This is funny because I completely agree with you and I've only been doing this for a couple months and I
[01:16:55] You know what it was you know what it was one day
[01:16:58] I was I was gonna do like a metcon pretty strong. It was feeling good sure and then I got done
[01:17:03] I said so I was I'm just gonna move some you know, but some some heavy get my lift on and when I when I went heavy
[01:17:10] I was like man that feels good
[01:17:12] Great all loose some all warm and so now I've just kind of started doing it a little bit
[01:17:17] Yeah, and if you get used to that then it'll start to be more and more benefit
[01:17:21] I used to I used to run on the treadmill. I used to do like three and a half miles
[01:17:24] I'm in four miles and then lift
[01:17:27] Just because I didn't have time and and every time I lived I would never feel like running the you know the mile
[01:17:32] Afterwards I do not tread no, so I
[01:17:35] So I mean what I'm gonna get the running out of the way that I'm gonna lift and then I was like dang lifting is kind of harder
[01:17:40] But I'd wait rather endure this discomfort when I'm lifting then when I'm running on the treadmill
[01:17:44] But I did that for months and months and months and then one day I didn't run. I was like
[01:17:48] It was weird. I was like stiff. Yeah, so you can't even use to it
[01:17:52] But either way. I mean what my original point is I do the met now. I do the Mechon after I live
[01:17:58] Doing the Mechon after that lift that has been my standard for so long
[01:18:02] Right, but you know how you're saying do the Mechon before you live or or you're just doing the Mechon that it's easier
[01:18:08] Yeah, because you're not a start-up thing. Yeah, yeah
[01:18:12] Yeah, but I'm anyway my original point was the shroom tech
[01:18:16] So if you're doing that kind of thing after you lift when you're going into the Mechon you can feel way better
[01:18:21] You want to hear something cool. So a lot of times people ask me what is your workout?
[01:18:27] Right, they want to know reps sets
[01:18:30] Wait yeah, right and that's cool. Of course and I haven't I haven't put it out there for
[01:18:38] Well, I'm I got a book
[01:18:40] Putting together a book. Let's go to have a book kind of thing. I just not gonna be any books. I'm a little boy
[01:18:45] Yeah, I got a real legit book on which means gonna take a little more time
[01:18:51] But I'd rather do it do it right, but what's interesting is this is what's so cool so
[01:18:58] People that people listen to podcasts and ask and they have been applying the basic principles
[01:19:05] Because I have never put I haven't put out. I don't think I put out a single workout
[01:19:08] I also people say what do you actually eat? Right then want to know what I had for breakfast lunch dinner
[01:19:16] What I had for snacks whatever
[01:19:17] Yeah, all I say is like oh, you know, I mostly you know
[01:19:20] I I low very low carbs. I eat a lot of meat. I do a lot of protein. I eat a lot of fat
[01:19:26] Okay
[01:19:27] What do you do for workouts? I get up early in the morning. I hit it hard. You know, am I doing squats and doing poultry
[01:19:33] Doing it just basic stuff right now put those basic principles out there well
[01:19:38] There's people troopers that have been applying these basic principles
[01:19:43] And they're making incredible progress in their lives. They're getting stronger. They're getting leaner
[01:19:49] They're getting in better shape. So it's actually
[01:19:53] proven because I remember you and I talked about this long time ago. I said listen
[01:19:58] It's more about the commanders intent right that they're working out about the commanders intent
[01:20:02] It's not about I'm gonna tell you how many reps and sets to do. I'm gonna tell you what you want to make happen
[01:20:08] Right, I'm gonna tell you where you want what where you want to be at the end of this workout
[01:20:13] physically and mentally and
[01:20:16] And and people have been taking that and I mean all kinds of people
[01:20:21] They have lost 28 pounds of lost 42 pounds just from
[01:20:25] Applying the basic principles that I and and so those will be consolidated in the book
[01:20:29] So that people can follow them and they'll be some other good stuff in the book to basic philosophy
[01:20:38] Well, that was kind of a tangent on on it wasn't it well, I rightly so I think
[01:20:44] Right that he so I think so it's it's
[01:20:47] Which which actually kind of brings me to my point that consistency is probably the most overlooked that even though people know
[01:20:54] Yeah, you gotta be consistent. We got it but that's kind of everything because everything else is variable
[01:20:59] Like you can there's a
[01:21:03] Billion different work by consistency do you mean
[01:21:08] Doing of the same thing or you just mean doing it every day getting in there. I ain't it. Yeah, absolutely not skipping days weeks
[01:21:15] You know getting off the horse, you know that kind of stuff
[01:21:18] There's a million different workouts. You can do that will give you results and
[01:21:22] There's the nine different results that you can you can kind of strive for and get because it just so many same thing with diet
[01:21:28] Like you can you know you people have their rigid diet philosophy, but the fact is that
[01:21:34] Many different diets work. Yeah, I mean there's some basic principles
[01:21:38] You don't need a bunch of sugar. You don't need a bunch of fast food. You don't you know the obvious things to avoid
[01:21:44] And you can get results with many kinds of diet and I would go one step further
[01:21:48] What you're talking about consistency in in in order to have consistency that requires the distance
[01:21:56] It does require the discipline. So that's the factor. Yep. That is the key factor and when people apply the discipline to their lives boom
[01:22:03] Right now we think becomes consistent and that's everything. You know so the books can come in the books can talk about that
[01:22:09] There you go
[01:22:11] Yeah, how well how well to support the podcast if you before you do your Amazon shopping hmm
[01:22:19] Go to juggle podcast.com or the one the websites juggle store
[01:22:22] Duck on clicking Amazon link and do your shopping you can support passively and
[01:22:28] You can
[01:22:30] Install that little tool or you can just make it your from fit your up. I put it in my my what's that called at the top bookmark the bookmark
[01:22:37] Yes, so when I click on Amazon it's already a job. Yeah, it's not like yeah exactly that's what I
[01:22:42] We go crazy with Amazon and how's him you nice?
[01:22:45] Yeah, so awesome and don't call it a little tool. It's not a little tool. Oh, that's right. It's the trooper tool. It's a big deal
[01:22:54] It's pretty little
[01:22:55] Technically it's really he's got anyway the trooper tool that Brady made little things for that bill again
[01:23:00] Great. Yeah, little small tool simple
[01:23:02] You go and you can go on the website and get it's called the juggle podcast trooper tool chrome extension
[01:23:09] What it all it does it makes it easy to support podcast when you do your Amazon shopping
[01:23:13] So you don't have to remember that and it you know
[01:23:16] Basically you click on it. Do you want the tool click? Yes, boom. It's on your little browser there
[01:23:20] It automatically directs you to our affiliate link which I'll see you support that way and it's kind of cool little icon if you can if you
[01:23:28] Yeah, when you do it this little icon there. It makes it official
[01:23:31] But you can hide the icon if you don't want it just hide it if you go to it if you don't want it and I understand it if you don't
[01:23:37] Yeah, it's a good face
[01:23:39] But you know, yeah, the trooper tool that's a good one. That's a good easy easy way because remembering to go to the website and click through before you do
[01:23:46] You know how like you're yeah, no, you know you're going to want that thing now. Yeah, you know
[01:23:50] You just like it was on the arts, you know, so I want this thing. I want that duct tape now. Yep. I'm same day
[01:23:57] Yeah, yeah, sure. So anyway now you got the trooper tool boom easy easy
[01:24:03] Also
[01:24:04] All obviously by subscribing to the podcast if you haven't already
[01:24:08] Found that don't the good way to support yeah, absolutely and the jocos door
[01:24:15] That's a good one. I think if you like shirts
[01:24:17] Let's say disciplining equals three and most people do have to wear shirts
[01:24:20] So some juncture during the day sure you can't get into the restaurant without a tattoo
[01:24:25] I'm glad you can sometimes accept it. Oh, I
[01:24:29] But yeah, there's some shirts on there. You like them get a shirt. That's a good way to support or a bumper sticker
[01:24:35] Elections coming up jocos
[01:24:40] Yeah, I saw a car with jocos 2016 on it. Did you know the yesterday? Resident San Diego. Yeah, Chris Martin. Oh, but still it's cool to see you know
[01:24:48] You pull up you like it. Oh, that's Chris Martin's car. Anyway. It look cool
[01:24:52] Oh, he has a nice car too, by the way. It's a little bit extra cool. You know, it was like extra official. Yeah
[01:24:58] We got some real
[01:25:00] supporter
[01:25:01] Yeah, that's what I felt like
[01:25:03] Also
[01:25:06] Subscribe to the YouTube channel and you post it your first
[01:25:11] Start to put it and that's a it's a deleted scene
[01:25:16] Keep you tight on those deleted scene if you want to hear echo Charles talking about
[01:25:21] My kids look
[01:25:23] My kids my kids are our about alien abducters a lot of podcasts about is that a son of a guy?
[01:25:29] I'm not working to fit in that subcategory leadership or
[01:25:33] Darkness alien abduction
[01:25:36] Maybe that's why it's an outtake that was more like an example underlying
[01:25:42] Kind of thing is more about my children's look idea. Okay. We're good. We're good
[01:25:47] Anyway, those are the ways yep on duck-up slash jocco. That's a good one
[01:25:50] Like I said for the supplement 10% off. I forgot to mention that if you don't know 10% off the supplements. Yeah, good
[01:25:58] I guess with that let's get down to the questions from the troopers on the interwebs
[01:26:05] Get a lot of questions lately
[01:26:08] I like it I like it to first question
[01:26:12] Jocco if you were coaching migraegher
[01:26:16] For those don't know that's karma-graegher you have to see fighter
[01:26:19] What would you focus on to try and make up the jiu-jitsu disparity all defense?
[01:26:28] Interesting and if you don't know what's going on
[01:26:34] Conor McGregor is fighting made Diaz again
[01:26:37] 202 UFC
[01:26:39] So a lot of times I don't like to talk about this kind of thing because it's by the time this comes out
[01:26:45] It'll be you by the time you're listening to this might be over don't care anymore
[01:26:50] But there is a a principle here a concept behind this that does make sense to try and discuss so people can
[01:26:58] Learn and improve and something for me to think about my game
[01:27:02] So you got this guy who's a really good striker going against a guy who's a
[01:27:07] Pretty good striker himself very good. Yeah, very good and that's one of the things that this is
[01:27:12] This is the question the way it sets it up as if jiu-jitsu is the is the only thing that Nate Diaz is better at
[01:27:22] That might not necessarily be the truth and in fact in their first fight it was the striking
[01:27:29] Of Nate Diaz that forced Conor McGregor to shoot a sloppy take down
[01:27:34] Take it to ground and once you got on the ground the jiu-jitsu from ADS was just way too much for
[01:27:39] For McGregor so this question
[01:27:46] It's almost a little bit off because the question shouldn't be that there's just a jiu-jitsu disparity the question should be
[01:27:55] You know what is how would you make up for the fighting
[01:27:59] Disparity or maybe not even that it's how would you go against what would you tell Connor?
[01:28:03] What would you work on? Yeah, what's the strategy? So let's just look at as an overall strategic question
[01:28:08] You got a guy that's pretty that's what what what is he good at that's the question
[01:28:13] What is he good at one of the strengths of Conor McGregor?
[01:28:15] He's fast he's strong, but strong might not even come to play because our Diaz walking on a 200 pounds right now
[01:28:22] The fight no 170 so he's gonna just call it a lot of way. He's gonna be big and strong. He's gonna be a better shape for this fight
[01:28:30] Conor is pretty good with some unorthodox stuff his striking is fast and
[01:28:35] Fairly dynamic so those are the things that he has going form what is Nate Diaz have going form his jiu-jitsu is really good
[01:28:45] Yeah, I'm just a jujitsu sec his
[01:28:49] Striking is especially his boxing is not a big kicker
[01:28:54] so
[01:28:55] If I was if I was McGregor here's what I'd be doing I mean what I'd be working my wrestling we work my underhoax of course
[01:29:01] and in getting control and getting back to my feet
[01:29:06] When I get taken down you immediately getting back to my feet
[01:29:11] The way I would fight if I was Conor McGregor is I would
[01:29:16] Back off with the hard punches. I would throw a lot of really fast
[01:29:21] Light punches and I'd move around a lot and just try and touch and go
[01:29:25] That's what I do if I was Conor McGregor
[01:29:28] I would possibly start in the middle of the second round maybe into the third round five round fight
[01:29:34] I might start throwing some leg kicks
[01:29:36] He doesn't
[01:29:38] Nate sometimes doesn't even check leg kicks, so maybe you can start putting on herding on him if you if you throw enough of those
[01:29:44] But in jujitsu wise, I would teach him to disengage
[01:29:49] disengage because you don't want to get go you don't want to get in the U to loop
[01:29:55] with the heat that
[01:29:57] McGregor does not want to get into a loop situation with with DS because he can't keep up with him
[01:30:04] He'll be he'll be changing
[01:30:06] He'll be going to the next thing going to the next thing going to the next thing and Conor McGregor will be going to get copy-hined and he'll
[01:30:13] won't be able to do it. So I teach him to get no now one thing that does make you just a little bit harder if you're if you're you're an iron to injuditzer
[01:30:20] And you're goal you're not you you actually disengage for me and you're just like your whole goal
[01:30:25] If we were on the mat shook hands
[01:30:27] Slap bump and we're gonna roll and all you did try to do is stay away from me. It would be a really hard round for me
[01:30:32] It would be harder than if you attacked me. Yeah, it's harder than if you attacked me and when I did take you down
[01:30:39] All you did was try and get back up. You didn't try and close a guardian trying to attack me with any submissions
[01:30:43] You just try to get back up and get away from me. That is a much harder round for me
[01:30:48] Then if you actually come at me with your full board jujitsu
[01:30:51] Right because then it's jujitsu versus jujitsu and I have an advantage
[01:30:55] But if it's jujitsu of mine versus run away from you now I got to run after you now. It's it's a more fair fight
[01:31:05] So that's what that's what McGregor needs to do he needs to use his speed and his
[01:31:14] Yeah, use his speed and then I think that's his biggest advantage the other thing that I find about
[01:31:20] The DS brothers that I wish that I could I wish they I wish they would not train so much triathlon and train more explosive
[01:31:29] I wish he was a little bit stronger both Nate and neck. I mean those guys are awesome and
[01:31:33] They're they're great fighters, but they've they really train had they do they do literally do triathlons
[01:31:40] And so you're not getting explosive muscles now it shows that they have great cardio
[01:31:44] But I'd rather just they were a little bit more explosive. That's that's my personal opinion
[01:31:51] Yeah, I dig it I have no advice. I think Nate is so well rounded in this quest as far as this matchup goes
[01:32:00] I
[01:32:02] Like just like that first fight yeah the first fight though you watch the first round. It's not it's not a pushover
[01:32:09] It's gonna be a tough fight man. Yeah. That's an end. That's not what I'm saying
[01:32:13] And I'm saying it's for you know you know how like you know you attack the weaker points
[01:32:18] Right, you know like let's say I'm a way better striker than one guy and his duty to his way better than mine
[01:32:23] I can stay on you know it's obvious that's where I'm gonna talk but in this case, it's not like that. So I'm not yeah
[01:32:28] I don't know man
[01:32:30] It's helpful. It's a tough fight for it for Connor. I stopped fight for for Nate to me
[01:32:36] There were some
[01:32:37] Yeah, yeah, we wasn't even the ending of the fight was very lobstided
[01:32:41] Right the first round it was a little closer and I think Connor thought he had magic
[01:32:49] Yeah, I thought that some of it he even said in a post-flight press conference. He said
[01:32:53] You know he was the big a man and and I
[01:32:57] I hit him with everything I got most of those would stop a smaller man. Yeah, they didn't stop him and I think that's got to be
[01:33:04] That's got to be hard. Yeah, I think that got to him psychologically
[01:33:06] So if he's prepared for that psychological this time maybe he'll be able to stick with a game plan and not shoot
[01:33:13] Yeah, on him which was ridiculous yeah, and even the shoot it wasn't just like hey
[01:33:18] I'm gonna decide to shoot it was kind of like a
[01:33:21] Ditch effort yeah, kind of kind of rock to and now you shoot you're rocked and you have to content with Nate
[01:33:27] Diaz, you do so it's like it's not just I gotta continue with Nate
[01:33:30] You do you do to which is bad enough by the way, but you're rocked and it was like a desperation thing
[01:33:35] You got to deal with it then you get that so it seemed like oh so quick, but it was like it was just a bunch of compounding factors
[01:33:40] And culminated in that the joke didn't work out looking forward to watching that. Yeah
[01:33:45] All right, great next question. Joko like you many leaders began as rebels
[01:33:52] Joko's the rep. I'll tell you about his band
[01:33:56] One day how did you learn to see the game? Yeah, man that Elgin told you about
[01:34:02] Yeah, man
[01:34:04] And then you told me about you
[01:34:06] How did you learn to see the game and
[01:34:09] Are rule followers at a disadvantage?
[01:34:13] Okay, so yeah, I was a
[01:34:16] Rebellious youth
[01:34:18] And you know when I got in the suit teams
[01:34:21] I was kind of a rebel rebel rebel as well and as a matter of fact if you think about it from a certain perspective
[01:34:28] Being in special operations, especially when I came in being in special operations is almost the
[01:34:33] Form of rebellion in its own right because you're saying look the regular stuff. We'll do the regular stuff right?
[01:34:39] I'll do the other stuff
[01:34:41] so
[01:34:43] That was my attitude. You know, I thought all regular navy now
[01:34:48] I'm doing this you know, so that was my rebellion and and and like I've explained before
[01:34:53] Joining the military I grew up in in New England not a lot of not a huge military proponent up there
[01:34:59] And so that was it was almost rebellious thing and matter of fact it wasn't rebellious thing for me to join the military in the first place
[01:35:06] So these are the kind of things that were
[01:35:08] rebellious and yes, we were we were my buddies and me were
[01:35:13] Rebellious with some rebellious
[01:35:16] Rock and roll bands back in the day
[01:35:19] so
[01:35:22] When I got to the seal teams we actually were
[01:35:25] I kind of maintained that you know like we're gonna be hardcore me
[01:35:29] Maybe there wasn't rebel, but we were we were like outsiders, you know, we were like going hard and
[01:35:35] The group of guys I was with when the guys I went through seal training with and went to seal team one with me back in the day
[01:35:45] You know, we we were getting effort we were pushing hard we were
[01:35:49] You know being hardcore and I actually got told to stand down a few times for doing stuff that was
[01:35:57] a little bit too hard core
[01:35:59] And it's a matter of fact so you get these evaluations in the in the navy when I first got in the navy
[01:36:06] They had this old evaluation system where you had 15 things you were getting evaluated on and
[01:36:11] And everybody it it had been um in inflation so high as grade you could get is a 4.0
[01:36:19] So if there was inflation on the grades at the time and so everyone just put 4.0 for everything
[01:36:25] Pretty much and I actually I have this I actually saved this evaluation of me, but I got a 3.8
[01:36:32] 3.8
[01:36:34] in team building and the guy that gave it to me
[01:36:38] said
[01:36:39] You know you're just you're just too hard on people that are unsat
[01:36:46] Which I actually he was one of the guys that I was like you know hard on yeah, I was hard on
[01:36:51] Never-for-for-for
[01:36:52] So and unsat I used to use that word all the time yeah sat around ceremony that these
[01:36:58] Yeah, so that was sort of you know we were we were
[01:37:01] Rebelling by being super hardcore I guess you could say but then
[01:37:05] Even though I was rebellious and again that's a strong word I don't know if that's the word we were
[01:37:13] It's I don't know if that's the perfect word
[01:37:16] But I did I love the seal teams right so and and in working for some of the great guys that I work for I
[01:37:21] Realize that if you want to impact the teams which I want to do because I did love teams
[01:37:26] Then you got to try again to some kind of leadership position you know
[01:37:30] These guys that I respected that I worked for so did wait that guy controls this platoon
[01:37:34] I want to do that he's helping us he's making that's good so
[01:37:39] Can like that old quote that
[01:37:42] The best former revenge is success it's almost like the best form of rebellion is success and so
[01:37:51] That's what I kind of went for to a situation. I was trying to first situation where I could move forward and kind of bring this hey
[01:37:58] I got this now this my platoon
[01:38:00] You know so I I guess that was a little bit of a
[01:38:02] There's a little bit simplified but but
[01:38:06] You know I don't want again. I don't want to make it sound like I was some kind of crazy rebel in the seal teams
[01:38:10] I wasn't I was I was
[01:38:13] Into the seal teams I was into doing the right thing and and
[01:38:17] I wanted to
[01:38:18] Do the do my best in the seal team so I guess that's not really being rebellious at all
[01:38:22] But I did still have some of that rebel mindset and one of the things I think is beneficial about having a rebel mindset is
[01:38:29] You question things right you question things you're not allowed to you're I was never afraid to say no or I don't agree with that
[01:38:37] I was never afraid to be contrarian or something
[01:38:39] I was never afraid to hold the line and take criticism so that goes even if if you're in a group of rebels
[01:38:47] And you go against them who's the rebel now?
[01:38:50] Well you are so when guys were beyond out of certain path I would I'd be okay
[01:38:55] Hold in the line against them because
[01:38:57] I was okay with being an outsider. I guess that's the word I've been looking for like an outsider
[01:39:02] Someone's not quite
[01:39:03] Just following and and doing whatever and also doing I've always been okay with being an outsider
[01:39:09] So maybe it's not necessarily a rebel
[01:39:12] But being an outsider and like okay those guys are doing it that way. No, I don't agree with that and I'm okay being over here by myself
[01:39:19] Marching to my own drum for lack of a better word. It's kind of like only if you need to be kind of thing
[01:39:25] Right
[01:39:27] What do you mean like if everyone's doing the right thing you're gonna do with that sure and you're gonna you know go hard
[01:39:32] You know the way you do but yeah, you're not just like this follow the following line, you know and I never
[01:39:39] I would say that's something and so if we categorize that as
[01:39:42] Being rebellious then yes, I kind of I would more categorize it with being comfortable with being an outsider
[01:39:50] Yeah
[01:39:51] comfortable with my own decision making process so and not always I mean there's times where I did things
[01:39:57] It was you know I was younger you're not that's another thing when um
[01:40:02] You know you hear me talk on 44 years old right I spent my whole adult life in the sealed teams
[01:40:09] I didn't show up in the sealed teams with like this incredible leadership capability
[01:40:14] I learned this stuff. I'm learning still learning I'm still learning this stuff. I picked up off along the way
[01:40:21] So I don't want people to ever think that you know I was a superstar
[01:40:28] Yeah, wasn't you know, I'm still not I'm just I have an open mind
[01:40:33] But now I can look back yeah, and I was lucky enough to have some great jobs and some great experiences that opened a lot of
[01:40:40] I
[01:40:42] It showed me it. I learned a lot. I had an open mind and the world taught me a lot stuff and so
[01:40:51] Yeah, but it wasn't wasn't just like hey, I was
[01:40:55] Showed up there but I
[01:40:57] Would say this the lead people that are out there that are leaders
[01:41:01] Keep the level alive keep alive keep under control
[01:41:06] Yeah, and maybe you don't let the rebel talk to other people
[01:41:12] Right?
[01:41:13] Maybe and I've had a seal buddies that do this where there there rebellious is there as outsider or whatever the word we're using as I am
[01:41:21] But they just can't keep it inside so they're verbalizing it and they're and what are they doing they're making enemies?
[01:41:26] They're making
[01:41:28] They're they're antagonizing people
[01:41:30] They're doing that. I never did that because I'm playing the game
[01:41:33] I'm gonna win the long term strategic goal so don't let the rebel
[01:41:38] Be the one that
[01:41:39] Represents you and talks and open your mouth
[01:41:42] But
[01:41:43] Let him whisper in your ear
[01:41:45] In listen
[01:41:47] Yeah, I talked about it. I talked to my wife a lot about the difference
[01:41:53] There's the difference between what you think or what you feel or whatever and what how you behave
[01:41:57] So like you can
[01:41:59] If you I don't know you get cut off in traffic or something
[01:42:05] No one's gonna be mad at you if you're like mad at that or that irritates you or whatever
[01:42:09] But if you start flipping the guy off or or violating traffic logical chase somewhere do you know start behaving
[01:42:16] Because he cut you behaving in a certain way then that's wrong. So there's a difference you can feel like all kinds of stuff
[01:42:23] But once you start misbehaving that's when the violations come up
[01:42:27] Yeah, basically what you're saying. I don't don't let him control your judge yourself. Yeah, you're behavior mind control
[01:42:38] Yeah, they're like just being a rebel typically that's like
[01:42:42] Hey, all these rules that everyone's following. I'm gonna. I rebel against those rules
[01:42:46] But here's the thing some of those rules are good rules exactly so you can't just be a rebel to
[01:42:50] Unable Lincoln statement. Yeah, I'm a rebel and that's why that's why it was kind of pulling back on that word
[01:42:56] Yeah, it makes me sound like I was big rebel. I was not I was I I loved being in the teams
[01:43:04] So why would I rebel against it? Yeah the people I rebel against were the guys that were not good seals
[01:43:10] We were about against them like I told you we had a mupe that was a rebellion
[01:43:14] That was a straight rebellion. Yeah, how to real legit mutiny and when against our cleaning are our platoon commander
[01:43:20] Mm-hmm and said hey to this commanding officer said no, I don't want this guy anymore. That's that's a rebel. Yeah, we were about but then again
[01:43:28] Everyone in my platoon was with me so we all were about so then was I a rebel?
[01:43:31] I don't know yeah, and does that make you a rebel just because you rebel don't on time
[01:43:36] You know yeah
[01:43:38] I get think we didn't see much semantics or a hundred and a semantics kind of part of
[01:43:44] Let's not go there. All right next question
[01:43:46] Question jockel how do you deal with the leader who preaches ownership but does not practice ownership?
[01:43:56] Oh, dream
[01:43:58] The leader who preaches ownership but does not practice ownership you know what I do in those situations
[01:44:04] I take ownership myself and I work for all kinds of bosses
[01:44:09] That didn't want to take ownership and you know what I did
[01:44:11] Take ownership. I took ownership. Do you work for a boss that doesn't want to lead you know what I did?
[01:44:19] Lead
[01:44:21] If
[01:44:23] For in my mind if a boss doesn't step up or doesn't take ownership they're not a
[01:44:28] problem
[01:44:31] They're an opportunity
[01:44:33] They're an opportunity to an opportunity for me to step up if you're not if you're my leader and you're not giving me instruction
[01:44:38] You're not stepping up and leaving guess what I'm gonna run with it. I'm gonna run
[01:44:42] I'm gonna take control. I'm gonna take command. I'm gonna make things happen and
[01:44:46] You're either gonna
[01:44:48] You're either gonna see what I'm doing and say wow he's taking ownership. I need to step up or
[01:44:56] If he doesn't have any potential at all
[01:44:59] then maybe he looks at it and says
[01:45:03] You know what I'm maybe I'm not fit for this or maybe they don't realize it's happening
[01:45:07] You'll not take it their job from them because other people will eventually realize
[01:45:12] Now the thing that you have to be careful of
[01:45:16] Is if you say oh he's not leading I'm gonna lead
[01:45:20] That your ego starts saying I'm gonna lead her and then you flaunt it and now you might make your boss think that you're
[01:45:26] Gunning for their job
[01:45:28] Hmm
[01:45:30] And then we can have some issues because now we might shut you down
[01:45:33] You know there's all kinds of things that negative things that can happen there so when you take ownership
[01:45:38] You gotta make sure you're putting your ego in check and make sure that you're taking ownership
[01:45:41] But you're still giving them the credit that's the hardest thing to do but it works
[01:45:45] I'm telling you I promise you that works if you take ownership, but then you give them the credit like
[01:45:49] Hey sir, you know, I just want to go through this thing right here. Here's what I did yesterday
[01:45:53] Based on you know the guidance that you gave us the guidance giving you guidance. Please make it up
[01:45:59] Just make it up
[01:46:01] These you know here we go and you just do your best to make him look good
[01:46:07] Eventually you're gonna win so if you got some of that's not leading that's not stepping up. That's not taking ownership
[01:46:11] Just do it yourself
[01:46:13] Do it in a tactful manner
[01:46:15] Do it in a
[01:46:17] non-ego flare-up manner
[01:46:21] But do it make it happen
[01:46:23] Get after
[01:46:25] Yeah, if you keep that goal in a hall like when you're on a team right you have a
[01:46:29] Some objectives and it's probably just just a handful of them typically if not just one close with the destroy the enemy
[01:46:35] Yep, yeah, make the ceiling you know, whatever the goal is if you keep the goal in mine then you as long as you like really keep it in mine
[01:46:43] You you can avoid all the because if you're like okay
[01:46:45] I'm gonna step up just like I already say I'm gonna step up and lead and then if you're goal shifts from the main goal that you guys all have to
[01:46:53] Now my new goal is to be the leader that's my goal to be the leader then
[01:46:57] Out comes the ego because
[01:47:00] The being the leader that's what your focus on. I'm the leader of the follow-up kind of thing
[01:47:06] Keep the goal in mine you're gonna do basically with your ownership
[01:47:09] You're gonna do your part and then some if someone's not doing you know certain things or whatever
[01:47:13] You're gonna take the lead you're gonna do your job in it to achieve the goal therefore pulling everybody ahead
[01:47:20] So we're gonna keep that keep that goal in mine there. Yes indeed do it for the goal not for yourself
[01:47:26] Yeah
[01:47:29] Good
[01:47:30] Jockel
[01:47:32] Something I would be very interested in listening to you discuss is the art of disarming people with words
[01:47:42] Yeah, and good question. How do we how do we disarm people and
[01:47:50] Good thing tonight. We talked about maneuver warfare because we already know that we're not gonna attack the strong point
[01:47:55] We're gonna look for the gaps. We're gonna look for the weaknesses. We're gonna look for the openings
[01:47:59] So what does that mean that means if we're dealing with someone that has a big ego
[01:48:04] We're gonna side step that we might even throw some compliments out there might be saying echo
[01:48:09] You're so good at doing this right here. I could use some help doing that now we're getting around as ego
[01:48:15] Now we can start getting into his head if the person's over aggressive
[01:48:18] Maybe you just have to be a little bit more accepting of them. Maybe if they're nervous you got to just reassure them
[01:48:22] They're hostile
[01:48:24] Be just be open-minded to what they're saying so there's a lot of ways that disarm and impact some tactical things that you could literally like
[01:48:33] It says
[01:48:34] Disarm people with words, so what are words that disarm people? I'll give you a couple
[01:48:39] That's a good idea
[01:48:41] Oh, okay, or yeah, that actually makes good that that's good sense right there. That makes sense right? Disarmed or
[01:48:49] Oh, yeah, I like that disarmed right all free those little easy phrase. That's a good idea that makes sense
[01:48:56] You know, I like that those are all things that are gonna disarm somebody a little bit and
[01:49:02] Once you disarm them they're gonna they're gonna
[01:49:06] Open up they're gonna open up a little bit so so like
[01:49:12] Once you
[01:49:14] You're gonna have you once you get them disarmed by just opening your mind given a little compliment
[01:49:20] Tell them that you like whether they're coming with coming from and then you start to probe and trying to figure out what's going on
[01:49:26] And instead of being direct right we want to use the indirect method here so
[01:49:31] You know ask questions
[01:49:34] Say hey echo could you explain to me what what the what we're trying to get done here?
[01:49:38] That's a lot different than what are you trying to do here?
[01:49:43] That's an attack almost what the hell are you thinking what the hell were you thinking hey could you explain to me this because I'm not sure I understood
[01:49:49] I didn't really see everything here or
[01:49:52] Hey, I'm having trouble
[01:49:54] Understanding this can you can you help me because I'm not sure I don't think I get this
[01:49:59] So now when I say that to you you in order to explain something you have to actually open up you have to say okay
[01:50:05] I'll find I'll tell you well as soon as you say that now you're open up right now you're open up and when you open yourself up
[01:50:11] When you open yourself up verbally
[01:50:13] With an idea to explain an idea that you're open yourself up mentally too because now we're having a discussion
[01:50:19] Make happen so it's pretty easy
[01:50:23] I shouldn't say it's pretty easy if you think about it and you just think about
[01:50:28] those simple
[01:50:29] Frases that you can use to disarm people. Hey, it's good idea. I like where you're coming from all the other that that that actually that makes good sense or
[01:50:38] That is the way you disarm somebody very simple. Yeah, and there's little things you can do
[01:50:44] even outside actually outside straight up outside of any specific like scenario
[01:50:51] Where you know some people are just more approachable than other people and then some some people just just aren't
[01:50:57] So what you can do
[01:50:59] And what I've noticed is people that don't talk
[01:51:04] Negatively about people and don't come in just talking negative in general like I knew a guy
[01:51:08] No, I still know him, but I don't see him anymore hardly but every time he'd come in the first thing out of his mouth was something like
[01:51:15] I don't know traffic was bad. It was something bad. You know, he was just complaining about life and it was just a matter of
[01:51:22] What particular thing he chose to complain about, but it was always a complaint everything and
[01:51:26] And another thing he would do is let's say someone would say something. Oh, hey, did you see this or that or whatever?
[01:51:31] This was real cool. He'd be like yeah, but and then say something bad and kind of dump on it, you know
[01:51:36] Yeah, that's true, but you know that kind of stuff. So
[01:51:39] Don't do that so that seems kind of easy, but you'd be surprised where
[01:51:44] Don't be super negative. Yes, don't be don't be a negative person in general
[01:51:48] So right off the bat you'll be kind of one of those guys that's more approachable
[01:51:51] But here's here's one that's harder
[01:51:53] I mean it's simple, but it's it's kind of harder to do because I think it comes kind of natural
[01:51:58] Easy so not easy is don't talk bad about people and
[01:52:03] When people are talking bad about people like to you or around you or whatever don't like jump in and kind of accommodate them
[01:52:10] And I'm not saying
[01:52:12] Reject them or even talk bad about them talking bad about people don't don't do that just don't be one of those people. Yeah, it's the here's the thing it's
[01:52:20] I'm going above and beyond saying
[01:52:22] Don't
[01:52:24] Be you know certain people that's all they do is gospel about people of course. That's a no brainer
[01:52:28] I'm saying never do it try to never do it at any cost never do it if you can because basically you're trying to establish a rep
[01:52:37] Of being this positive approachable person that's what you're trying to do
[01:52:41] So even though people don't take
[01:52:44] Specific mental notes like oh you're talking bad about this person you always talk bad about people
[01:52:48] They feel it so you ever you ever been around somebody who tells
[01:52:53] Tells you secrets every time they see you like am not supposed to tell you this but this and you're like dang this guy's telling me
[01:52:59] You know this cool secrets. I like being around him and not typically white people tell and I'm never gonna tell them in a secret
[01:53:03] That's exactly right so you know
[01:53:06] This guy's talking about about people or this guy's being negative or whatever when it comes to you
[01:53:10] Why why would I want to trust in this guy or talk to this guy about this? Especially for gonna do something together
[01:53:15] You know, so you're kind of coming at it from the other perspective not how would you disarm someone you're just coming at it from how do you
[01:53:22] Be a person that doesn't even need to be disarmed. Yeah, like just yeah exactly so you're so just so
[01:53:28] At the start point. No, no, you're actually right so you're saying if if I know you as a guy that doesn't talk bad and doesn't tell secrets and doesn't
[01:53:37] But then I'm gonna automatically be a little bit
[01:53:39] You're gonna start off a little bit
[01:53:41] So you've developed a relationship with the person. Yeah, with that won't really make that your goal make that your goal. Yeah
[01:53:54] Jocco have you worked with anyone who led from an emotional or unbalanced place
[01:54:02] But learn to detach
[01:54:05] And what help them
[01:54:07] Well when I was putting these questions together obviously here's one where you also have to use a little
[01:54:14] Disarm movement to get someone that's getting emotional about something you gotta get them to calm down. Yeah, so you don't reciprocate the emotion
[01:54:23] Don't coach people when they're angry or emotional
[01:54:26] That's not the time to say hey, you know what you need to do right now is you need to calm down
[01:54:29] Yeah, you know that that does doesn't work actually
[01:54:32] Life was telling that story on the last podcast where he was using losing his temper about something and I just you know stood there and said kind of smiled and said
[01:54:43] I didn't I didn't reciprocate the anchor. I said hey take it easy. You know don't worry about it
[01:54:49] Let's just think about it. Can you make this happen and he's like yeah, I can of course. I actually I had a
[01:54:56] One of my one of my senior and listed advisors actually my first deployment to Iraq and
[01:55:02] And and he and I were old school team one guy send up
[01:55:08] What one of my one of my favorite guys in the world actually, but he would sometimes get a little bit
[01:55:14] Most of a little bit a little bit
[01:55:17] He had this tactic that I picked up from him that I that I understood the way he
[01:55:22] the way he addressed
[01:55:25] conflict
[01:55:27] Was and I broke it down form eventually was simplify and
[01:55:32] Profi and repeat that's what he would do and it actually worked and worked a lot of time on most people and so like first if I said
[01:55:40] Hey
[01:55:42] I'm gonna need it. I want to take a couple more guys on this operation and if he didn't think I needed more guys for an operation
[01:55:48] He'd say well, why don't you just take everyone in the compound? I'll tell you what just take every person on the roster
[01:55:52] We'll give you that'll give you enough people then we'll take everyone. I'll also rounding everyone up right now
[01:55:57] We'll take every single person that we have out there and I'll even grab some army guys on the web
[01:56:01] That was his way and and and I'll be like no man
[01:56:05] No and but I wouldn't do is I wouldn't get defensive. I wouldn't get fired up and I would say
[01:56:12] Hey, no, I'm not saying any of everybody
[01:56:15] I'm just saying I want to take a three more guys there's some spaces in the vehicles that will give us a little more
[01:56:20] Ability to contain the target and we look at that say look take a look at the map. We can and so then he
[01:56:27] Calm down
[01:56:28] I mean and in this guy's case he actually wasn't like two emotional. He was just super passionate and when I actually broke down the
[01:56:35] simplify amplifying and intensify
[01:56:39] Oh no, it was simplified amplifying repeat. That's what you do. Simplify amplifying repeat
[01:56:44] When and then when when every we would start getting a discussion and he would start doing it. We would start laughing because
[01:56:51] He realized it has exactly what he was doing so the simple by amplifier repeat. That's that's what the name you put on his little
[01:56:56] That was his methodology
[01:56:58] Yeah, you know if you said like I said if I said I had need a couple more guys
[01:57:02] You take will just take everyone then if that's what you need every single guy
[01:57:05] You're he would simplify what you said he would amplify it and make it more extreme and he would just repeat it
[01:57:10] Yeah, and most people that he did it to they would feel stupid because of what he did to him
[01:57:17] You know he said well, no, I don't need no, I just feel stupid and he said so just
[01:57:22] Ridiculous and he'd win
[01:57:26] But we had we we would laugh about it, but but like I said he wasn't actually too emotional
[01:57:35] He was just fired up about stuff which is a positive thing
[01:57:39] But someone that is actually too emotional so like I said you got to stay calm you don't
[01:57:46] Don't coach people when they're angry you set a good example and then when people come down later you talk to them about
[01:57:56] Like came in that wasn't cool and you got to you got to spin it right because you're trying to get you're trying to you
[01:58:02] Don't want to like literally coach
[01:58:04] Because if I say echo I need to coach you as I'm in your defensive and all that but if I say
[01:58:10] Hey man, I
[01:58:12] Man, I rely on you because of your expertise and I think you're the only guy in the pool tune that can actually make this happen
[01:58:18] So if you're losing your temper man that doesn't all of a sudden I can't count on you and I need you
[01:58:25] Because you know make good I mean we none of us make good decisions if we're all
[01:58:28] Ben out of shape on something
[01:58:30] So I got to please can you just can you help me by just hey man if you start if you start getting angry about something
[01:58:38] Just realize it's gonna affect your decision making and we can't have that man
[01:58:42] We need to come we need to make the good decisions people are count on us and that's
[01:58:47] How I'm
[01:58:49] Handling someone that gets emotional about stuff. Yeah, that that's what it's some simplify repeat one
[01:58:55] But I can simplify
[01:58:57] Every I'm not gonna say all girls do this but some wives might feel like you say
[01:59:03] Lives with the last name Charles
[01:59:07] You know
[01:59:09] Ultimately I think if you know and you're if you're in a good really you don't really take it that seriously
[01:59:14] But but yeah, you say like I don't know you know hey you you were you said something mean to me or whatever
[01:59:20] No, we'll then why do marry me then why don't you just you know you they take it to the to that next level
[01:59:25] I am provide repeat. Oh, yeah, or watch out for that. We're hey go to this one time long time
[01:59:30] We were first cut
[01:59:31] She's a she said
[01:59:33] She won me to get orange juice. I went to the store's going to start wanting me to get orange juice for whatever reason
[01:59:38] I forgot the orange juice. I didn't choose not to get orange juice forgot just forgot
[01:59:45] You know you come home for get the orange juice. She said something along the lines of
[01:59:50] Does anything I say have any importance to you at all?
[01:59:53] That's that's what that is right
[01:59:56] I provide and all she needs to do is say it more than once and you got the repeat as well
[02:00:01] Yeah, yeah, so I mean I guess to answer that question. No. Yeah, most things are pretty important
[02:00:07] I mean maybe not the orange juice at that moment. You know I forgot
[02:00:12] Another tactic like when you talk to people like to calm them down or whatever like let's say something they lose their temporal
[02:00:18] The camera something like that and you have to address like them losing their tempered be like hey, you know how you use the word passionate passionate
[02:00:24] Is it basically like an excuse word for someone being like you know people like it's a fashion in
[02:00:29] Compassionate you can be it can be you can be you
[02:00:32] Well here's the thing being passionate and being emotional are two different things because you can be passionate about something
[02:00:38] And not lose your temper and not being in one of their two different things
[02:00:41] So people will be like they'll put that on and so it sounds kind of acceptable
[02:00:44] Simply not true, but so if you if the but you can use that to your advantage
[02:00:49] You can be like hey, I know you're passionate. I dig it man. It's one of the things I like about you
[02:00:54] And another thing that I like about you is that you're also a thinker
[02:00:58] That's why oh, and you say what to do
[02:01:01] That's what you go work there
[02:01:03] Ninja mine
[02:01:04] The key line there is that's what I like about you or what I like about you is this and then they kind of take on that role
[02:01:11] For sure, you're disarming them yeah, yeah, yeah, there you go very good very good next question
[02:01:20] Duckle what do you think of the saying you get more bees with honey?
[02:01:27] They actually asked to leave this to but
[02:01:31] You get more bees with honey I
[02:01:34] Was I always I always actually heard you catch more flies with honey than with vinegar
[02:01:41] But to say my idea and it's something I agree with I mean obviously this comes down to the our word relationships and
[02:01:48] Always what I'm trying to do is I'm trying to build the relationship so I'm gonna put out the honey
[02:01:54] You know, I'm gonna put out the honey the carrot is is is preferable to the stick
[02:02:00] Yeah, yeah, yeah, which is another way of saying that the reward the good stuff the
[02:02:06] So so yeah totally that that absolutely works better um now you can
[02:02:13] Give people too much honey
[02:02:15] And now they get type two diabetes
[02:02:19] They get lazy they get out of shape and they don't work anymore, right?
[02:02:24] So you can't you got to do that's that's the that's the dichotomy that you need to balance as leader not being too hard
[02:02:31] But not being too soft not being too aggressive but being aggressive enough
[02:02:36] That's the dichotomy, but the bottom line is you need to treat people well
[02:02:41] That's what you need to do you need to
[02:02:45] Not spoil them but give them respect in
[02:02:49] Build the relationships and
[02:02:51] If you make that your goal when I work with all these different companies
[02:02:57] You know, I'm I'm gonna say listen make your goal with this person that you're having a problem with make your goal to build a relationship
[02:03:04] That make that your goal
[02:03:06] When they say something negative say something positive when they want to blame something on you say yeah
[02:03:12] You're right. It's my fault build a relationship with the person that's gonna strengthen the team
[02:03:17] It's gonna be thousand times infinitely better than having an antagonistic relationship with somebody
[02:03:25] So
[02:03:27] And also
[02:03:29] You know when you're leading with vinegar when you're leading with fear and
[02:03:32] You're leading with your you're beating people with a stick that doesn't not work out good and the long run
[02:03:38] Do you have to have consequences sometimes? Yeah, but
[02:03:42] The team that is following somebody because they want to do their best for that leader is gonna beat the team
[02:03:48] That is doing things only because they're scared of the leader
[02:03:51] Right, yeah, they're trying to avoid the stick that's gonna be where they operate in
[02:03:57] You're gonna operate enough to avoid the sticks. Yeah, cuz really that's the goal to avoid the stick
[02:04:01] There's no honey really above and beyond yeah
[02:04:04] I think you said something very wise in office space
[02:04:07] What is he saying?
[02:04:09] Review he got hypnotized did you watch office space I've watched it a million times so so he gets hypnotized
[02:04:14] All right, so now he tells the truth or he doesn't care you know about things
[02:04:18] So he's like he's real opening on as he goes into his little review which is supposed to be this kind of tense thing and they say
[02:04:25] Like what's up, you know something that I asked some stuff and he's like it's a problem of motivation
[02:04:30] Like we're you know we're not if I get you know all this he's always explained it to and then he's like okay
[02:04:35] If I'm if I'm scared of you know whatever this punishment from my boss whatever no I'm just gonna work hard
[02:04:40] Enough not to get fired and but that's true. That's absolutely true
[02:04:44] So yeah, like these kids who only get scolded, you know
[02:04:47] They don't get like compassion and and compliment and support you know they only get scolded a lot of times
[02:04:55] I mean there's a lot more to it, but a lot of times they're just gonna do the minimum and clearly to not get scolded too far together direction
[02:05:01] We get spoiled you know and the dangerous part about getting giving to like going to front of the direction
[02:05:10] How you put it is you don't prepare them like they wind up when they're on their own
[02:05:15] Like they're not prepared for like like the tough parts
[02:05:18] Yeah, yeah, and there's a lot of good parts in life, man, but those tough parts there there too
[02:05:23] So if you're not prepared for me, you're gonna get jacked
[02:05:26] Relaxing the better term
[02:05:28] You got to correct term actually
[02:05:30] You know I last question
[02:05:34] Juckle great topic for me would be staying committed to life change. I start strong and fade fast into old habits
[02:05:44] Please help I'm gonna have to bring in the little Shakespeare on this one
[02:05:53] Shakespeare between the acting of a dreadful thing and the first motion
[02:06:02] All the interim is like a fantastic or a hideous dream
[02:06:11] And that's
[02:06:13] Brutus
[02:06:15] From Julius Caesar and Brutus in the play is plotting to kill
[02:06:20] So Caesar
[02:06:23] Someone he was loyal to
[02:06:28] And Shakespeare the master of understanding human nature
[02:06:34] He captures what that feels like
[02:06:39] And here's what these lines mean between the acting of a dreadful thing
[02:06:44] So that's the moment that
[02:06:46] That moment when you're waiting to do something that you don't want to do
[02:06:53] And the first motion, so that's when you actually start doing that thing that you don't want to do
[02:07:01] All the interim
[02:07:03] Now this is all that time all that time in that moment
[02:07:08] While you are waiting to take action
[02:07:10] Is like a fantasma or a hideous dream
[02:07:20] So that moment
[02:07:22] That moment when you're waiting to do something it's like an apparition a
[02:07:28] hideous dream a nightmare
[02:07:33] And so the battle this struggle
[02:07:36] It takes place in that moment
[02:07:43] It's not
[02:07:45] Knowing what to do that's not the battle. It's not actually doing it
[02:07:51] That's not the battle. It's the moment in between
[02:07:55] It's the hesitation
[02:07:58] hesitation is the enemy
[02:08:00] and in war
[02:08:07] Understanding where the enemy is allows you to defeat him
[02:08:13] And this is where the enemy of action
[02:08:17] The enemy of commitment the enemy of change that's where the enemy lies in the waiting
[02:08:25] and
[02:08:30] And all you have to do to win
[02:08:34] is overcome that moment the waiting the hesitation
[02:08:40] All you have to do is go
[02:08:44] Move
[02:08:46] Take action
[02:08:47] Get out of bed get your feet on the ground
[02:08:50] Step into the gym put down the donut and pick up the kettlebell
[02:08:58] Do not hesitate do not wait go forward
[02:09:04] Go to war
[02:09:07] And win
[02:09:11] Every
[02:09:13] single
[02:09:15] All right
[02:09:20] And I think that's
[02:09:23] All of got for the night
[02:09:27] Thanks to everybody out there for listening and for all the
[02:09:32] Awesome continued support or get from everybody if you want to keep supporting
[02:09:38] Echo how they do that
[02:09:41] Well, primarily
[02:09:43] I
[02:09:45] Would say support yourself with supplementation
[02:09:48] Because really that's really what it's about not necessarily does supplementation but supporting yourself as well
[02:09:53] It's kind of like when you when you fly in the airplane
[02:09:57] Yeah, you know you got to put the mask over your self first before you you help your instinct yeah, yeah
[02:10:02] Because if you're not dope like you you know, you know what I mean?
[02:10:05] So anyway if you need supplements
[02:10:08] Go to on it dot com slash jockel get 10% off on its supplements. What does that mean?
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[02:13:17] Like that just like the shirts
[02:13:18] It's a very caution details. Yeah, everybody saw that on your Amazon page that you displayed
[02:13:25] Yeah, the duct tape actually if you look closer like well, yeah, there's this stuff. There's these strikes and everything
[02:13:32] You just want to give them away. That's part of the fun part of the fun
[02:13:36] Nonetheless yeah sure YouTube you can support that way and of course if you like the shirts
[02:13:42] Get a shirt
[02:13:44] Got a kind of a new one the the trooper one just it's just the basic brand in chocolate podcast if you're on YouTube right now
[02:13:50] I'm wearing one right now
[02:13:52] You know
[02:13:54] Debbie's one of the one of the troopers
[02:13:58] Just take a picture of the day like my mom just amazing background
[02:14:02] Mountains snow cap mountains trees
[02:14:06] Trooper trooper dish
[02:14:10] That was good. Yeah, well, they are I did make it a point to get the good ones. They're not like
[02:14:16] You know, you know the process of my good creating quality quality. Yeah, I didn't just be like hey
[02:14:24] Give me the cheapest possible one the ballpark giveaway. I didn't do that. I was gonna get the you know
[02:14:29] I went through some length so they're so they're good wearable quality my goal is to be like
[02:14:36] If you put it on you be like this is my regardless of what's on it. This is my favorite shirt. That's the goal
[02:14:41] And so the design is just a bonus. I like to think so. Yeah, that's a good bonus. Yeah, but yeah, get a shirt jockelstore.com
[02:14:52] Bo get us get a sticker to if you want there's a few options there and a coffee mug and
[02:14:58] May or may not have some
[02:15:01] Jocco white tea
[02:15:04] Mama granted
[02:15:06] Maybe we have a little something coming out working with the working with a company a lot of people would talk to me about
[02:15:14] the beverage that I drink
[02:15:16] Yeah, I drink some alpha brain, but my most common beverage
[02:15:21] Yep, and that and find that on Tim Ferris right? Yeah, I like it first people went crazy
[02:15:26] Yeah, because he was asking hey, what is that what is that? What is that? What is it? He drank it? He got all fired up
[02:15:31] Listen listen to Tim Ferris back. Yeah, he's like oh, this is like in a adrenaline field
[02:15:35] There's caffeine in the oven. Yeah, there's there's a small amount of caffeine
[02:15:40] Well, I shouldn't say small usually usually usually white teas about a third of a cup of coffee
[02:15:44] So it's pre-mile on the caffeine. Yeah, it's like a micro dose of caffeine
[02:15:49] There's maybe oxins in there and it tastes good
[02:15:55] And so anyway, as I got approached about
[02:15:57] Hey, we are we are fans of the jockel podcast and guess what we make tea?
[02:16:02] Boom, we want to make your tea. So I went through some iterations trying to find it in tune it
[02:16:09] Yeah, little the mixture and now we got a song
[02:16:14] Jockel way tea. That's gonna be good. Yeah, so we'll put it on the jockel store
[02:16:20] I'm gonna connection to get it
[02:16:23] You know, when man this I don't know when that'll be out. Yeah, sometimes yeah, and
[02:16:28] You put the thing on there where people can have get emails from us
[02:16:35] Yeah, oh, yeah, side the mailing list right yeah, but simple as a mailing list. It's it's more for like in like insider
[02:16:42] As you care about like
[02:16:45] I don't know insider stuff
[02:16:47] So I don't you know how like there's a lot of mailing list or whatever you can get on and know like send you a mail every
[02:16:52] Make it a point not to send you stuff that's like not relevant because you sometimes
[02:16:57] No, I've seen enough for that before. Yeah, no don't fill people's email box with stuff that is
[02:17:04] Stuff yeah, it's like hey, here's my email violate my trust
[02:17:09] No, no
[02:17:11] I'll send you may yeah, oh, oh, when I when if there's something is important yeah, and not the kind like hey one out of all these people
[02:17:18] One of these people might be interested in this lemme send it to everybody's not that kind no
[02:17:22] Is if I think everybody's me interested I could be wrong, but if I think that genuinely and then I'll send you something and furthermore if there is
[02:17:33] Epandemic epic disaster situation
[02:17:37] I will be sending forth instructions
[02:17:40] For all troopers to congregate and dominate that's what we're gonna do to the event of the zombie apocalypse
[02:17:47] So that alone right there's the reason and at some point
[02:17:50] See now at some point I may send out like
[02:17:54] A longer thing like for instance up coming
[02:17:59] We got the master right later. I'm doing here in San Diego got to get out some details on that so people know
[02:18:05] When it's going down all that stuff I'm gonna send that out to there
[02:18:10] So that people know what's happening they get connected so that's that's an example. Yeah
[02:18:14] Am I gonna email it 47 times no yeah hey reminder, but I
[02:18:20] Know if you're enlisted on the on the mail
[02:18:24] Then you're interested in what we're saying yeah, so I think that's what we're putting out there. Yeah, oh, we're not gonna violate that
[02:18:31] Here's my email violate my trust yeah
[02:18:35] You know how they'll cause they'll send you stuff but every like three days. Oh, yeah, if you let them so no there's multiple times a day
[02:18:41] Oh
[02:18:42] Who does that why would you why is that I'm not gonna send any name marketing? I don't know is that considered to be good marketing? Somebody must be telling people to do that
[02:18:51] I don't know you know what that's that's that's what I don't want to do
[02:18:56] Is market things
[02:18:58] Yeah, okay, that's the thing if anybody out there thinks I'm marketing things stop me
[02:19:05] Do it well
[02:19:06] I did understand lately there's a difference between advertising and marketing so marketing is everything like if even you wearing that shirt
[02:19:14] That's
[02:19:15] Technique marketing for advertising okay. Well the other hand right busted
[02:19:20] I don't want to get into a big thing here
[02:19:22] I was talking to them. Well I guess within we market and we advertise for no we market don't have forever ties
[02:19:29] We don't
[02:19:31] No, okay, what about when I say what about when you say hey on it has good stuff and I say yeah get the curloil that's on it
[02:19:40] Technically okay, I'm I'm
[02:19:42] We're in the advertising well what I don't want to do is beat people down with you know by this by that
[02:19:48] I don't want to do that. Yeah
[02:19:50] On it is actually supporting the podcast and I support on it that's Joe Rogan's company and
[02:19:56] And Joe Rogan's a great guy who helped us out who what by the way we're sitting here because of Joe Rogan
[02:20:03] FYI
[02:20:04] All right the other way. Hey also you got the
[02:20:08] You can buy a little book called Extreme Ownership
[02:20:10] Britain by myself and my brother, Dave Babin who was on the last podcast podcast 34 he was also on podcast 11
[02:20:18] And we wrote a book
[02:20:20] It's about leadership. It's about war. It's about business. It's about life
[02:20:23] And it's available in hard-covered digital audio format both
[02:20:29] Life and I reread the sections that we wrote so that's cool
[02:20:32] And you know what's cool is get it for yourself, which is cool. It'll help you but then help you team
[02:20:38] Grab them a copy and you're helping us you know a little bit. Yeah, it's for support because
[02:20:43] Think good about that book. I said this before but it's it's worth saying again is that you know all like some
[02:20:49] Books is like okay. I'm an imp you know improve and and
[02:20:54] Whatever. I'm gonna read this book. It's just helped me in this way or that way or whatever
[02:20:57] But this is like the kind stuff where you can literally turn on that like right when you read a certain sentence
[02:21:02] And it's giving you whatever you know whatever this advice is whichever one it is but the Extreme Ownership will say
[02:21:07] You can turn it on right then and there like right then and there you can walk away and you have to read the whole book technically and
[02:21:13] It'll you're already be changed. That's all you just gotta do it. I'm saying like not all books
[02:21:18] You're like that it's like oh yeah, it's a gradual process
[02:21:22] That is awesome. But anyway, that's that's a big takeaway I got from it now
[02:21:27] As always if you want to let us know what's going on in your world you're gonna continue this little talk that we're having amongst us
[02:21:35] What are up in the webs?
[02:21:37] Twitter Facebookie and Instagram echo is at echo Charles
[02:21:42] And I am at juggle willing now one of the things that I've made a note here to talk about a little bit
[02:21:49] Gotta gotta come clean here gotta address something
[02:21:55] Went on a little
[02:21:57] Trip into the bush was out of contact before I left on the trip
[02:22:05] I
[02:22:07] Stopped I didn't stop but I could no longer keep up
[02:22:11] Couldn't no longer keep up with responding there was a time there all up until
[02:22:19] A week ago maybe maybe a week and a half ago
[02:22:23] I committed and responded to every single person that hit me on Twitter a hundred percent
[02:22:30] And I kept
[02:22:32] Trying to maintain and I told everyone I'm remain tame and I maintain for a long time for what six months seven months something like that
[02:22:41] But I cannot maintain anymore. I cannot respond to every single person
[02:22:47] And especially coming back from being in the field for
[02:22:52] You know seven days where I didn't have it or I have it very sparingly
[02:22:57] I'm getting thousands of tweets a day which is awesome and you know what I do read them all
[02:23:03] I absolutely read them all but to respond every single one of them
[02:23:07] I don't I don't have time starting about a week and a half ago. I just said nine I can't do this because
[02:23:14] First of all we went to the whole thing of like oh we're gonna go two times a week for the podcast or the one time
[02:23:19] Two times a month for the podcast maybe one ever two weeks
[02:23:22] Most people didn't like that. I didn't like that. I want to come and get it on so
[02:23:28] But well and and I used to be able to respond to the Twitter in like 45 minutes a day which I find that time
[02:23:34] I'll make that time then it was an hour then it was an hour and ten minutes and all of a sudden it became
[02:23:38] Two hours a day and then if think about this if I missed a day for whatever reason
[02:23:44] One missed a day and a half five hours finally one Sunday
[02:23:48] I sat down and I did Twitter for a
[02:23:53] Stupid amount of time you know six something hours and
[02:23:58] Twitter's a great method of communication
[02:24:01] but
[02:24:03] I got to be more selective and disciplined about my time management. I don't want to carry this on even further, but
[02:24:11] There is an um kind of like kind of laughing is that because you're kind of new to social media
[02:24:19] So kind of but it's funny because like you're
[02:24:23] This is gonna sound strange but you're that like nice of a person that you're like
[02:24:29] Telling everyone like we know
[02:24:32] You know you can't just find everybody right but you're like really bothered by you like guy
[02:24:36] I can't I'm not being rude. I'm not being rude. That's what's fun. That's what's funny
[02:24:40] Because from your perspective, it's like it's like someone's talking to you for real and you're just like
[02:24:45] Basically putting your finger up saying I don't you know, I don't have time for you. Yeah, but
[02:24:50] Anything we are kind of a group a team right? Yeah, which makes it even yeah
[02:24:55] of which I'm sort of like the guy that facilitates the communication between us from almost a leadership position
[02:25:01] And so for now people and you know what was funny because uh
[02:25:04] One of one of the troopers guy in Brandon who's been it in the games since day one. I forget how he
[02:25:11] I think I think you listen to Tim Ferriss Bar and he immediately like followed me on Twitter and
[02:25:16] We were going back and forth on a bunch of stuff and and finally we were emailing about some stuff
[02:25:20] We were emailing about uh
[02:25:22] He was he was trying to get timex
[02:25:26] To sponsor
[02:25:27] Yeah, the podcast or me or something because timex is selling watches
[02:25:32] factually
[02:25:33] The a lot of people have bought timex iron man matches watches
[02:25:38] People from your things just from from wanting to get in the game, you know, oh yeah, that's cool man. Let's do it
[02:25:45] You know and so a lot of people have factually bought those watches and so Brandon trooper was like hey
[02:25:51] You know what I'm gonna contact these guys so we went back on a bunch of emails
[02:25:55] I have pictures
[02:25:57] of me
[02:25:58] With this watch on with this timex watch that you see on my Twitter feed
[02:26:02] Not the exact same watch, but the same model watch the same model and I have I think five of them right now and actually
[02:26:11] Some troopers sent me other older because you can't buy him anymore
[02:26:16] So I have I have enough of these watches to last me for the rest of my life
[02:26:20] You know, I think it's about five or six
[02:26:23] And I've actually done surgery on these watches over the years like like things yeah
[02:26:28] Like one would break a certain part so I had taken another one apart and I put the insights and you know
[02:26:31] So one day I was reading an email from Brandon because we emailed back and forth on this a couple times and then the other day
[02:26:38] He emailed me just said hey just so you know
[02:26:40] I haven't given up on them still on timex and I said I'm an email and I was reading it on the way here
[02:26:46] to record
[02:26:48] and
[02:26:49] And I was looking through the email
[02:26:51] When I parked I saw his phone number at the bottom
[02:26:54] And I just hit you know it's iPhone I hit I hit the thing you're Nicole and I said
[02:27:01] And he's okay, this is Brandon and I said hey, what's up, man?
[02:27:04] It's so cool he's like really yeah, man, what's going on?
[02:27:07] I was one of the touch-based and he's and so I said so we started talking and this was right as the social media
[02:27:14] I was reaching the kind of the end of the line of social media
[02:27:18] And as I'm sort of thinking about how I'm gonna
[02:27:21] Manage and how I'm gonna like if I could tell people like listen, I'm sorry I just can't
[02:27:28] I physically can't do it
[02:27:31] And one of the things he says to me while we're talking he goes you know what's so awesome is that you respond to everybody
[02:27:39] So I stuck with it
[02:27:41] Okay, you know what I'm behind him and he's sit down and I think that's when I did like a Sunday where I just sat there like an idiot
[02:27:47] You know what I know but it just boom boom boom boom
[02:27:50] Yeah, and I think it's too slow people are telling me good stuff and I'm like, why I say hey, man
[02:27:54] I think that's good point. Oh, that's a good book. I'm gonna check that out
[02:27:57] So we need to tell me that I said okay, and hold the line. I hold the line press and then and then I realize if I'm gonna hold the line on that
[02:28:03] I'm gonna let go of more important things one of them being the podcast
[02:28:07] Yeah, one of them being the podcast and not putting forth quality podcast which to me is
[02:28:11] the most important thing that that I'm doing right now is is getting the podcast quality from a podcast perspective, right
[02:28:18] Sure
[02:28:19] Um, so yeah, there's my uh, there's my social media adventures
[02:28:23] No, yeah, what it's funny to think of it from your perspective because I would argue. Oh, yes that from everyone else's perspective
[02:28:32] It's like yeah, no
[02:28:33] No kidding. Yeah, yeah, you're here. He's getting but not man good and you really you're the yeah, I think that's that's cool
[02:28:41] Well apologize everybody, but uh, and I'm I'm still I'm telling you I'm still like reading them
[02:28:46] But it's I can't respond there
[02:28:51] Got you the man but what I'm gonna try and do since I don't have to be sweating the the more responses if I treat
[02:28:58] I'm gonna try and like do be a little bit more active as things happen cool things happen whatever yeah, we'll see how that works out
[02:29:06] All right
[02:29:09] To close it out thanks
[02:29:12] Always and once again
[02:29:14] To the uniform folks out there the firefighters police and law enforcement and of course the military members
[02:29:21] Thanks to you all
[02:29:23] for holding the line and
[02:29:26] To the other troopers that are out there that are listening
[02:29:32] Who have
[02:29:34] Open your ears and open your mind
[02:29:39] you
[02:29:41] You who are looking at yourself every day
[02:29:46] Like we do
[02:29:48] Thinking how can I be better
[02:29:54] Thanks for doing that
[02:29:57] Thanks for making that daily self-assessment
[02:30:03] Thanks for moving forward without hesitation
[02:30:07] and
[02:30:10] Most important
[02:30:13] Thanks for getting after it
[02:30:17] So
[02:30:19] Until next time this is echo and jacco out