Jocko Podcast 34 with Leif Babin - Ambushed Cops, Benghazi, Tempers, SEAL Combatives

2016-08-03T19:30:45Z

Join the conversation on Twitter: @jockowillink @echocharles @leifbabin 0:00:00 - Opening 0:10:27 - Is Darkness Taking Hold? 0:24:18 - When to fire someone. 0:37:32 - How Leif and Jocko met 0:58:08 - Thoughts on Bengazi 1:04:16 - Best BBQ in Texas? 1:06:52 - Having Hard Conversations 1:11:55 - SEAL Combatives and MMA 1:19:06 - Dealing with Tempers. 1:28:18 - Thoughts on Cops being ambushed. 1:52:20 - Metallica or Pantera? 1:54:05 - Thoughts on the deaths of BUD/s Students 2:07:34 - Dealing w/ rules of engagement. 2:12:36 - How often did you guys get shot in the body armor or helmet? 2:15:38 - Would Leif/Jocko consider politics? 2:19:32 - Muster 2016 Info 2:23:06 - Remembering Marc Lee, Aug 2nd 2:37:30 - Closing

AI summary of episode

So like, like, what were you, you know, how you, like, you always say this, like, what were you thinking there on that thing or that went down as opposed to, what were you thinking, you know, like that kind of thing, that's common. And I think if you want to, that's a great example of being able to successfully mentor your people so they understand, you know, to ask them those questions in a way that's meaningful, it's not condescending, it's not, you know, I know everything, you know, why are you doing that, but, uh, or don't do this, but, but actually ask me the questions and I didn't have a legitimate answer. But if, if you start taking it right then and there where, you know, you're losing a temper or something like that, making the job difficult, like just like you said, like, that's not going to, you're not going to recapture your rights at that time. So as these would be the underdog, because it's, you can just take advantage of, of, of, of overconfidence of arrogance of someone who just doesn't think, yeah, it's like, you're saying, like, I'd go into Iraq, we don't, we don't a bunch of operations, but I'll tell you, in my mind, I didn't feel like I had been tested, I knew, and a lot, I felt like, hey, we still got to be, that's why we always thought, worst case scenario, what's the worst thing that's going to happen, what's how bad can this get, that's what I was always looking at, and still look at. Your heart rates going and you're like, like, you know, you know, because there's pressure on you got instructors there and you want to make sure you make your shots and make good decisions. I don't know that it would have saved their lives and it no one could say that, but that's not what leaders are asking themselves, when they don't know the outcome, I think a true, good leader is going to, is going to, when bad things are happening is going to, say, how can we resolve this? And the fact of the matter is, and I know, I know, I know, lay for now, I have seen, I don't even know how many people, I've seen muzzle strikes over and over and over again. I'm a pretty direct guy, and I'm a de-falte aggressive leader, I think, by nature, but that's something that I learned from Jocca, really, you always use jujitsu as an analogy, and how the direct approach, and particularly, as a white boat wonder myself, when you're trying to jujitsu, it's like, you're going for the three moves that you know, people know it's coming and it's very easy to defend. Like you want to make it perfectly clear to everybody and the way you get their attention because it's not like you lose your temper all the time is by, you know, getting angry and people go, oh, you know, he's, he doesn't lose the temper very often. And I think, you know, what, whether or not a QRF, which is a quick, quick reaction force, we're talking about sending in a, you know, a force, maybe it's Marines, maybe soldiers, maybe special operations, for maybe it's just air support, maybe it's air support, close air support, which could have gotten there certainly, you know, in the matter of hours, it's those things would probably have made a huge difference on that battle field. And guess what, when every time I'm going to med a medical check during our hell week, which they do, you know, every day, you're getting checked every morning and they're taking your temperature and they're, you know, they're taking your SBO2 and making sure that you don't have pneumonia, you don't have some other, you know, dangerous physical medical condition. What's going on, you know, what's, what's happening, you know, uh, now, you know, there are other options we need to get reloaded for things to think about. You got to act and, and that intensity of urban combat combat and again, this is like when we talk about the Cheshire war and what those guys, that's what was so stressful and those lessons learned, what they said, hey, and the urban combat environment, these guys need to be cycled out of the urban combat environment because the ID threat, because the sniper threat, because the immense pressure of having to make decisions now, they should be cycled out like I think it was at the two months and here we were, I'm putting you guys out in the field for six straight months and two in urban combat, apologize, life, apologize, I love you. You know what, today we're going to talk about, you know, politics, we're going to talk about religion, we're going to talk, I said, life, we're, they're asking about barbecue. So that was, you know, and that, that case that you just described happened, the, you know, every day in the seal team, somebody else that knew some GG2, you know, would, would have that scenario happen and eventually the, the, the, the correct answer rises up and people say, hey, look, this is working. You know, you're in, you're looking at across a valley, you're looking down a ridge line, you're looking, you know, you're, you can observe and you can got some time to think and you can get some cover and think, Obviously, this weekend, we saw a lot of our, of our, of our, seal buddies and it's interesting we always have an conversation with, I think there's three or four of us saying the circle, but they were talking about the book and, you know, it's guys that were junior to us at the time and now they're saying, hey, you know, this is awesome. It interestingly, that's almost, that's why most of us start because it happens to, you know, you're like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, that was like, you know, how is this guy? So so many Americans, I know they asked you just like they asked me, you know, years ago when we saw ISIS taking over parts of Syria, then coming back into Iraq and establishing a foothold there, taking over huge cities like Mosul and Fouloujou and then Ramadi. Part of that class should be is the students that are going through the class get to be the cop and get to use simulation, get to feel what it's like to know, to not know, actually. You know, they, they like, they like, they like to think they do, but they don't, they have no idea what makes a good SEAL. You know, about the situation with Iran, you know, in their development, I'm nuclear weapons or China getting, you know, making big moves in the South China Sea or Russia, pushing the envelope and kind of filming their noses at us. When you got all fired up at me, I was like, like, okay, you know, like, life's getting fired up. You know, you know, do you think that there's a difference between like the seal teams, for example, because you can't just, or I'm assuming you can't just replace the guy. So when I'm asking those questions, I am legitimately asking you the question, hey, Echo, what, what, what do you think when you, when you splice this thing together or what are you thinking when you, when you posted this thing on that video, what's the purpose of that, you know, and I actually want to know. So, you know, so that's the kind of people that we want in the seal teams, you know, but on the other hand, instructor staff has a difficult job because they have to make sure that those guys are hurting themselves. Young, you know, good young men who aspire to be seals and whether they're killed in them auto-axonate, you know, drinking a drive or not or, you know, a suicide. And we had guys, you know, who on patrol with a camel back, you know, and the, you know, the camel basket is a water bladder on the back. Like, hey, I know it's, I know what's going on. So like I said, I think how you're saying, if there is this understanding, I know how it is to be the cop, I know how to get arrested. So even had I thought that initially, you know, at that point when you don't have experience, you don't even know what you don't know. You know, people ask us sometimes, Jack, when I get questions like, tell us a good bud story, like, we don't talk about buds because everybody's meant to buds in the SEAL teams. I didn't want to get so far forward that I'm getting sucked into every room clearance or getting in a gunfighting in the hallway because I got to be able to stand back and see what's going on, but not so far in the back that I don't know what's going on up front. The tough thing is though, is when you take over a position like that in the seal teams and lay if you know this, you don't know who you're getting. Or even if even if you end up saying, like, you know, as so many leaders would do, like, you're going to do it this way.

Most common words

Episode transcript

[00:00:00] This is Jockel Podcast number 34 with Echo Charles and me, Jockel Willink. Good evening Echo. Good evening.
[00:00:11] And tonight we have a guest on the podcast back for a second time. My brother, Dave Babin. Good evening, Dave. Good evening. Good to be back with you. And if you don't know who Dave Babin is, real easy thing to do is go back to Jockel Podcast number 11 and listen to that.
[00:00:31] I give him a long introduction and tell you about who he is. Guy that I served in the SEAL teams with and like I said, go back to 11.
[00:00:44] I think he is a little book. Yeah. We wrote a little book called Extreme Ownership. I'm sure we'll talk about that tonight.
[00:00:50] Dave was one of the two commanders that that worked for me in the Battle of Romadi when we deployed in 2006 and just wanted my brother's. So.
[00:01:01] Thanks for coming on the podcast. Good afternoon.
[00:01:11] What do you say to a man that by his own admission has no soul? Why would you say anything?
[00:01:24] I've thought about it a good deal.
[00:01:28] But he wasn't nothing compared to what was coming down the pike.
[00:01:34] They say the eyes are the windows to the soul. I don't know what their eyes was windows to and I guess I'd assume not know.
[00:01:49] But there is another view of the world out there and otherwise to see it and that's where this is going.
[00:01:57] It has done brought me to a place in my life. I would not have thought out of come to.
[00:02:06] Somewhere out there is a true and living profit of destruction.
[00:02:13] And I don't want to confront him.
[00:02:17] I know he's real.
[00:02:20] I've seen his work. I walked in front of those eyes once.
[00:02:28] I won't do it again.
[00:02:31] I won't push my chips forward and stand up and go out to meet him.
[00:02:38] It ain't just being older.
[00:02:41] I wish that it was.
[00:02:43] I can't say that it's even what you are willing to do because I always knew that you had to be willing to
[00:02:49] die to even do this job. That was always true.
[00:02:54] Not to sound glorious about or nothing.
[00:02:58] But you do.
[00:03:00] And if you ain't they'll know it. They'll see it in a heartbeat.
[00:03:06] I think it is more like what you are willing to become.
[00:03:13] And I think a man would have to put his soul at hazard.
[00:03:21] And I won't do that.
[00:03:25] I think now that maybe I never would.
[00:03:36] Now that's the opening from the book No Country for Old Men, which is written by Corn Mac MacArthur.
[00:03:44] You also wrote by favorite non-military memoir book The Book Blood Meridium, which is just an outstanding book.
[00:03:52] No country for Old Men was actually made into an outstanding movie as well, which almost follows the book word for word.
[00:04:00] It's an awesome movie.
[00:04:02] And in the movie and in the book there's a guy that's who's talking in that opening.
[00:04:07] Sheriff Ed Tom Bell.
[00:04:09] And he's explaining that he's seen evil in the world, a living profit of destruction.
[00:04:17] And he's seen his work and walked in front of those eyes.
[00:04:21] And Old Smiley, that's kind of what the book is about.
[00:04:24] Sheriff Bell is explaining that he doesn't really want to face this evil.
[00:04:29] He doesn't want to put his soul at hazard.
[00:04:33] So ultimately he doesn't really want to be a sheriff anymore.
[00:04:38] He can't face that kind of evil.
[00:04:41] So he leaves the platoon, put up the police and he retires and stays in his own little world.
[00:04:46] And that's the basis of it.
[00:04:48] There's a way more to it than that than you should definitely read the book.
[00:04:53] Yeah, the book which is it's set, I think it's set in about the 1980s, early early 1980s.
[00:04:59] And the evil that he's speaking of that he's having to now deal with as a sheriff is the drug cartels.
[00:05:06] Coming out of Mexico, the border of Texas, they've escalated from, you know, petty little drug dealers back in the day.
[00:05:12] And now it's a ruthless organized crime syndicates that murder with no mercy.
[00:05:20] And like I said, it's just too much for Sheriff Bell and he ends up walking away.
[00:05:29] Now meanwhile, in 2016, the evil that we deal with now is even more pervasive and stronger and completely without mercy and it's everywhere.
[00:05:48] And we can try and ignore it.
[00:05:51] And we can try and act like it doesn't happen.
[00:05:55] But there's some things that you cannot ignore.
[00:05:59] And in this case, it's something that we cannot walk away from.
[00:06:07] In late July of 2016, father Jacques Hamel, an 86-year-old Catholic priest,
[00:06:17] was doing what he did every Sunday.
[00:06:21] Conducting mass for his parish and Normandy France.
[00:06:26] Obviously, the sight of D-Day, where one of the most impactful operations in history in terms of protecting freedom and liberty took place.
[00:06:36] And there in Normandy France, in this church, two young men.
[00:06:43] And I use that term loosely burst into the mass, brandishing fake guns, fake explosives, but real knives.
[00:06:52] And the fake guns and the fake bombs apparently allowed them to get control of the people in the church, including father Hamel.
[00:07:03] They forced him to his knees in front of his parishioners.
[00:07:11] And they slid his throat.
[00:07:15] And in fact, they slit his throat with such force that the reports came back and said that they beheaded him.
[00:07:26] And one of the survivors who was a nun said that the attackers who claimed loyalty to the Islamic state,
[00:07:34] smiled and appeared to be happy as they slit the priests throat.
[00:07:43] And then these two savages attempted to use some of the nuns from the church as human shields to try and escape.
[00:07:52] And when they did try and escape, fortunately there were some French police snipers that shot and killed.
[00:08:03] But obviously the damage was already done.
[00:08:06] One priest slaughtered.
[00:08:11] One of the nuns who was wounded.
[00:08:15] And obviously peace and serenity destroyed.
[00:08:22] And that is pure evil.
[00:08:27] And that is the same evil that slaughtered 89 innocent people at the Bataclan theater in Paris,
[00:08:36] the same evil that murdered 12 cartoonists at Charlie Hebdo, the same evil that led and Islamic extremist to murder 49 people at a nightclub in Florida.
[00:08:49] And the same evil that brought down the twin towers and hit the Pentagon and has caused death and mayhem and destruction all over the world.
[00:09:02] And unlike Sheriff Ed Tom Bell in the book No Country for Old Men, we can't just walk away from this evil.
[00:09:16] Because this evil is everywhere.
[00:09:21] And I regret to tell you that it's growing.
[00:09:26] And it's going to continue to grow.
[00:09:29] Unless we, we, the civilized people of the world do something to stop.
[00:09:45] And of course with life and background, you know, both of us spent a lot of time in the sealed teams deployed multiple times overseas to confront this evil enemy.
[00:10:01] And of course we get a lot of questions about our take on this and to open up the questions for tonight.
[00:10:12] The first question is here.
[00:10:18] Is the darkness taking hold?
[00:10:22] Or do you and Lave see the way out of another war?
[00:10:27] What can we do to prevent lone wolf attacks from happening in Europe and America?
[00:10:39] Lave. Thanks for coming on. I know this is obviously something both of us think a lot about.
[00:10:46] And I know a lot of people are wanting to hear what we think about it.
[00:10:54] Is the darkness taking hold, my brother?
[00:10:58] There's no doubt that there is some serious darkness in the world.
[00:11:01] And I think that darkness, we've seen a grow.
[00:11:04] We've seen the number of jihadied terrorist attacks across the world.
[00:11:09] Gross substantially over the years.
[00:11:11] It's statistically that's just the fact.
[00:11:13] And I think it's something that I think people need to understand.
[00:11:18] Across America, across the world.
[00:11:21] People need to understand just how evil this enemy is.
[00:11:25] We talk about darkness. We talk about evil.
[00:11:28] And I think that no country for all men, some are in that intro.
[00:11:33] Really captures it in a way.
[00:11:35] And certainly we've seen that with drug cartels.
[00:11:38] Some of the horrific things we're going on in northern Mexico, or even across the border in the United States.
[00:11:44] But this Islamic enemy in particular is, in my opinion, as evil and enemy, as the US military is ever faced in our long history.
[00:11:53] And I'm very well aware of the horrific evils of Nazi Germany and Paralympan.
[00:11:59] And I think this threat is every bit or even more evil than that.
[00:12:05] It is something that we're seeing as you just described from that one attack.
[00:12:09] That's one example of hundreds of hundreds that you could use over the last year to alone.
[00:12:15] Yeah, and a good point on that is we hear about the attacks that take place in the Western world.
[00:12:20] Right? That's where we hear about if you start diving into the butchery and the slaughter and the torture and the rape that happens in their world, in the Islamic world, in the Middle East.
[00:12:33] And again, you and I that have been there, we know for a fact that the majority of people do not want to live under that reign of terror.
[00:12:43] No doubt. They want to have normalized.
[00:12:46] And I say this all the time, I know you say this all the time, they want to have normal lives.
[00:12:53] And they're being brought down and driven by this, I mean, evil is it's like, I want a stronger word.
[00:13:07] I don't know what stronger word there is, but this is like, this is a, this is a personification of Satan.
[00:13:13] That's what this is. So, and I know that's one of the things that struck me and as we were talking, that made me think of no country for all men because when he says, I know he's real.
[00:13:26] I've seen his work and and I know both of us have we know he's real.
[00:13:30] And anybody that's deployed overseen sees and seen what these people can do is.
[00:13:36] And it knows that this is real. Now, the other part of this question, Leif was, what can we do to prevent these loan wolf attacks?
[00:13:46] So, so what do you, what's your, what's your thoughts on loan wolf attacks?
[00:13:51] Well, I think first of all, the loan wolf attack is a myth.
[00:13:54] It's an absolute myth. And you know, this idea that there is these people are just randomly, you know, we use, we also use the term along with loan wolf, they use the term self radicalization.
[00:14:05] You hear that all the time, self, he's self radicalized. You know, he was a normal kid, everything was great and all of a sudden he followed a Twitter feed from ISIS and decided to go out and kill people.
[00:14:16] And in no case, are we seeing that?
[00:14:20] We're seeing that to be true. And I think we're discounting that this is, this is an ideology. It comes out of, out of the radical Islamic jihadim movement.
[00:14:31] And there's a SUNY component of that. There's a SHI component of that. But there is there are a lot of followers of this. And there are folks that, you know, when the Orlando shooter was a great example.
[00:14:42] We have someone with like, oh, he was self radicalized. And the reality was, I mean, you could go back and track the, the guys father and see that his, he had pro Taliban posts on his YouTube channel and, and he's, he's anti-american.
[00:15:00] anti-american pro jihadi.
[00:15:03] He either in the Senate's home. And the fact that the Orlando shooter also happened to go to the very same mosque where the only known American born suicide bomber attended and went to the same mosque as well.
[00:15:19] A guy who traveled to Syria, joined up with ISIS and blew himself up on American citizen. And they both went to the same mosque in four-purs Florida. So where is this coming from? It's coming from ideology. And we have to, we have to recognize that that's a fact.
[00:15:35] So many people want to bury their head in the sand and say, you know, Islam's a religion of peace. This has nothing to do with Islam. It has everything to do with Islam. Obviously. And as you said, of course, most of the Islamic world doesn't want to live in this brutal reign of terror. And we're abandoning those people to the likes of of the Islamic state.
[00:15:53] And that that reign of terror if we don't stand up, we don't do anything. And so we have to recognize that threat. It is, it is an ideology that pushes that threat.
[00:16:01] It's not lone wolf. They're connected by that ideology across the world. And that inspires people to join up. And I think, you know, back to the, that ties us back to the, the first question about is the darkness spreading.
[00:16:14] There's always darkness in the world. There's always been even in the world. What keeps that darkness at bay? You can go back to the, the Pax Ramana and talk about peace in the, in the ancient world and how was imposed through
[00:16:26] strong military might. And it's no different today. We have enjoyed the, the, the relative peace of post world war two, because we had the strongest, most dominant military in the world. And so we keep that darkness at bay.
[00:16:41] That wouldn't have been the case if the United States and our allies had not won World War two, the darkness would have, would have taken over the world or much of the world. So only through military power, peace through strength.
[00:16:53] Can we ensure that there's light in the world that the darkness does not take over that we keep that in check. And I think people need to understand that this can, this is an enemy that can be defeated. That this darkness is spreading only because we are allowing it to spread only because it is metastasized only because we have not gone and rooted it out.
[00:17:14] So so many Americans, I know they asked you just like they asked me, you know, years ago when we saw ISIS taking over parts of Syria, then coming back into Iraq and establishing a foothold there, taking over huge cities like Mosul and Fouloujou and then Ramadi.
[00:17:31] And before they were pushed out, people asked, well why do we really care about that? Why does it matter? And I think now as we're starting to see the kind of horrific attacks that are inspired by their so-called caliphate, that that real estate absolutely matters.
[00:17:47] And they're interested in us and it inspires that they can inspire attacks here among us. And we always try to connect it back. People say, well, we don't know if it was related to ISIS. And if Abu Bakr Baghdad, either, you know, the Islamic head of the Islamic state had given them direction.
[00:18:03] And it doesn't matter. None of that matters. The fact is that they're able to inspire attacks where people hear amongst us in America and Western Europe and across the world go out and kill and to clear their allegiance. And so we have to go there and we have to destroy them. And it is it is worth the effort for us.
[00:18:21] And we have a military that is eager and is ready to do that. And they are itching to make it happen because they understand the nature of the civil just like me and you, they faced it, they've seen it. And you know, as we talked to our our bodies who spent time there are there now.
[00:18:35] And they want to close with and destroy this enemy. And yet there's a lot of political strings holding them back from doing so. And I think that's something that it simply requires leaders who understand the nature of this threat and understand that there is a military solution to this. And we have to lead that fight America has to lead that fight. And I think we can absolutely do that. And we can have tremendous impact in the world and make sure that people don't want to join the world.
[00:19:03] Because these Islamic State is getting hammered and people are dying in large numbers. And they don't want to go over there and be a part of that. They don't want to join up with the losing side. We got to make sure that that's clear to everybody in the world.
[00:19:19] That if they want to be on the side of the radical Islamic jihadis, they're going to die a bloody nasty death.
[00:19:27] One of the things that you mentioned real quick and we were kind of going off was was the fact that these people are normal people. One of the things that you and I heard. So so for those of you don't know, late for nine fought with the
[00:19:40] first brigade, first armor division in the battle of the body in the summer 2006 where the city of Ramadi was taken back from insurgents. And when we did that, it was a very tough fight, very fierce fight. And we were able to get that city turned around and turn back over to the city of Ramadi.
[00:20:00] And it turned into a flourishing city. It was very peaceful for seven years. And when ISIS then took it over, took it back. They, and again, this is what what lay for our told by people that we knew that were on the ground over there. ISIS came in and murdered.
[00:20:18] They had a list of about 500 families. And they went in and murdered every person in the family. These were this is a list of family families of whom someone in the family had worked with the coalition forces, worked with the Iraqi government, been against, you know, this form of radical Islam. So ISIS came in and murdered 500 families, which,
[00:20:44] to me, it should tell everybody out there that this is an enemy that we must address, we must face, and we must destroy.
[00:20:56] I think what people don't understand either is that those same people who were on that list that ISIS brought in, they were screaming and begging for our help.
[00:21:06] They wanted American troops on the ground to help them. They don't want to live under that brutal rain of tear. They want us to be able to push that enemy back and give them the chance to live their lives in relative freedom and peace and security.
[00:21:19] Yeah, there's a great, there's a great video on vice news that shows prior to ISIS coming back in the Romadi. It's, it's very difficult for me to watch, it'd be difficult for you to watch too, because it's exactly showing exactly what you're saying.
[00:21:36] I think he's an Iraqi American because he speaks Arabic and he's conversing with people and they're showing subtitles, but everybody's talking to. He's saying, well, what are you, what are you going to do? It looks like ISIS is coming and they're saying, we want the Americans back.
[00:21:50] We want them to come here, we want them to help us, then they got the governor of Romadi and they're, they show him on the phone and he's talking to, whoever his superior is, and he's saying, we need the Americans out here, they're getting too close.
[00:22:02] We need American support, we need them and that's the thing that so many people miss in America is the fact that the normal people in these countries, they do not want to live under this kind of regime and they, but they are, it's hard for them to defend themselves against it.
[00:22:20] And so that's where America, the benevolent nation that we are, can provide this sort of peace and stability there and it's going to be hard and I say this all the time, right? If you're going to go to war, people are going to die.
[00:22:34] Americans are going to die innocent civilians are going to die, but look at what the alternative is, the alternative is you have this disgusting, despicable ideology getting a foothold in the world and it is absolutely disgusting.
[00:22:49] And it should not be stood for. And I think people are standing too, when we're talking about destroying the Islamic caliphate, is they, is they call themselves.
[00:22:57] And how that real estate alone, them owning that real estate inspires those attacks, it doesn't take in giant ground invasions with hundreds of thousands of troops in order to defeat the enemy.
[00:23:09] It takes a few thousand American troops to go and generate momentum to beat them back, partner with folks on the ground like on Mari shakes that we worked with back in the day and US forces worked with for the onboard awakening and they're asking for help.
[00:23:25] We need to partner with folks like the president of Egypt and King of Jordan who have talked about how this is a civil war within Islam and they don't, they don't want to subscribe to that, or live under that kind of brutal reign.
[00:23:40] They, they want to lead the fight against it. We got to help them, we got to support them. We need to team up with folks like that. It is, we must do it.
[00:23:47] And if, if we don't do it, you're going to see the darkness continue to spread until we actually do something about it. So many people want to say, well, let's let others over there lead the fight.
[00:23:59] That's kind of like Winston Churchill saying, you know what, the Nazis are in Czechoslovakia in France, that's, that's their problem.
[00:24:07] Where do they come in next?
[00:24:09] Exactly. All right. That's the Islamic State for your folks.
[00:24:18] Move on to the next question here.
[00:24:21] Jocconwave, how do you know if you terminated too early?
[00:24:26] I wanted to remove the toxicity before damage the team.
[00:24:30] When do you know it's time to fire someone? So we'll get into a little, little change in pace here,
[00:24:36] going from the darkness of the Islamic State into something a lot more positive, which is people running businesses.
[00:24:43] And what's good you clarify that, because terminated has a different context and our previous time.
[00:24:48] It's Czech. So this is a good question.
[00:24:51] Anyway, with something we hear a lot, it we got a ton of questions when I put this out.
[00:24:56] So when you know it's time to fire somebody.
[00:25:01] We get this question all the time, as you just said, and it's, this was always the most difficult thing.
[00:25:06] It is incredibly difficult. Even for, you know, people who feel like they're super, super tough leaders,
[00:25:12] are strong leaders in the SEAL teams who've been through all our training and, and, and, and, and, and,
[00:25:18] prove themselves on the battlefield, it's hard to fire people. It's always difficult to fire people.
[00:25:22] It's hard to have those tough conversations with folks. And so,
[00:25:26] we've talked about this that the right time to fire somebody is when you don't feel bad about it.
[00:25:33] And what I mean by that, I don't mean just because you're co-blooded, but that you actually,
[00:25:40] but that you, you actually have taken every step to mentor and train and provide resources and, and,
[00:25:48] help that person achieve the performance that you need them to achieve in order to accomplish the mission.
[00:25:54] And you've given them every chance to succeed. And once you, you, you, you, you should feel absolutely confident that you,
[00:25:59] you have exhausted all options. And then you, you're, you're not going to feel bad about it because you,
[00:26:05] you've, you've taken so much time and effort and they shouldn't even, they, they're not even going to be upset about it.
[00:26:10] Not that they administer a love you are thank you for firing them, but so often you see people that are literally relieved.
[00:26:16] When we work with companies and we see this happen, we see people that are relieved because they're in a position where they're just,
[00:26:21] they're overwhelmed, there's massive pressure on them. And they knew there, it was, it was beyond their capability.
[00:26:27] And they just didn't want to say, I can't do this. And so when they got either fired or just transitioned to a different role,
[00:26:33] it was, they were relieved. And they said, thank you. And I, it really was, that was really eating it me,
[00:26:38] that I, I didn't feel capable and I didn't feel, I knew I was letting the team down.
[00:26:42] And that's almost always the case. Everyone wants to get the torture genius who is just can't take direction or won't listen,
[00:26:48] who's never going to see, never going to see that I'd have, but that's okay.
[00:26:53] It's okay. Yeah, the only other thing I'd say is laying out the real crystal clear expectations of where you need to be.
[00:27:00] Hey, if this is where you, this is where you need to be. And if you don't get there, this is what's going to happen.
[00:27:06] And that's why you said it shouldn't be a surprise. It should be, hey, I knew exactly what the expectations were.
[00:27:11] I knew exactly what was required of me. And I knew exactly what was going to happen if I didn't meet those expectations requirements.
[00:27:17] So that's how you know. And the only other thing is we sometimes, in it's totally normal.
[00:27:24] We build a relationship with our people. And so sometimes that relationship gets strong to the point where you might value that relationship more than you value the performance of the team.
[00:27:39] And that is not a good situation. Because you have to look out for the whole team.
[00:27:43] And if I say, oh, this guy's not doing his job, but he's my bro. So I'm going to keep him on. I'm letting down the whole team.
[00:27:49] So that's just another little element that you have to pay attention to.
[00:27:53] And if you're to the care about the person, mentor coach him, put him into position where they can't see. Sometimes people aren't good at something.
[00:28:00] And you got to move him to a spot where they can. You can take advantage of their strengths instead of putting him to spot where their weaknesses are going to be totally exposed.
[00:28:07] That's how you take care of someone.
[00:28:09] So that's what you got to do before you fire somebody.
[00:28:12] One thing too that I learned from you in the Navy during our time was when you have those tough conversations, you got to write it down.
[00:28:21] You have to write it down. And that's something that I thought was very powerful because so often even in the seal teams, you'd see leaders who would say, well, this leader screwed up, you know, this particular commander or this chief's got an issue.
[00:28:34] And he's causing, you know, he's dangerous or he's making bad decisions or he's on professional or he's, you know, he's he's not getting his unit where they need to be and we need to call him in and tighten him up.
[00:28:46] And you have that conversation behind closed doors when the person isn't present and like right on, let's call him in, let's tighten him up. You come in, they sit down.
[00:28:56] And here you are face to face with that person and you just had that closed door conversation about how terrible they were and how they really need it, you know, we're going to square him away and now face to face to conversation goes like this.
[00:29:08] Well, you're doing, you're doing a pretty job.
[00:29:10] You're doing a pretty good job over all, there's a couple of things we need to work on here there, but maybe not here and I think that's that doesn't help anybody that's the false cheerleading is a disaster and it's something that we talk about all the time and our business.
[00:29:24] And I think that's a good job, you know, if you're not sure you mentioned that on the podcast, you know, many times before, but when you write it down, you have it in front of you, so you have to have it tough conversation and you give them a copy.
[00:29:34] So they have it with them as well and then they can take that and understand where they need to be and when they need to be there.
[00:29:40] And that forces you to have those tough conversations.
[00:29:43] It's it's absolutely a game changer and makes you make you address that.
[00:29:48] And then again, the false cheerleading is it's a disaster people.
[00:29:50] And then you have to fire someone and they're like, what you just said, I was doing a good job.
[00:29:54] So obviously you failed as a leader and another another good thing you can do to soften the blow of this stuff when you're when you're delivering the heavy news.
[00:30:03] Is you're saying listen, I wrote this down.
[00:30:05] I got putting this in front of you. Why am I doing that?
[00:30:07] Because I think you can do it. I want you to do it. I'm investing in you.
[00:30:12] This is not my way to to make you feel bad. This is my way to make you get better.
[00:30:16] I want you to do better. So here's what I just got to do for me. Here it is.
[00:30:20] In plain English, do you understand this bullet point? Do you understand this bullet point?
[00:30:24] Do you understand this bullet point? That's the best possible thing you can do.
[00:30:28] And you got to make them understand that.
[00:30:30] Because otherwise they'll walk out of the room saying, oh, he's picking on me. He doesn't like me.
[00:30:33] No, no, no, no. The opposite is true. If I didn't like you, I would just fire you.
[00:30:37] I want you to perform. I'm mentoring you. I'm coaching you because I want you to do better.
[00:30:41] I'm giving you this list. So you know exactly what you have to do to win.
[00:30:45] So don't take it the wrong way. My brother just get in the game and get this stuff done.
[00:30:51] Hey, do you think? I remember you saying this good evening, Akka.
[00:30:56] I remember you saying this to Jay. Remember you were like, you were like, when you don't feel bad.
[00:31:01] I don't know if you put in those exact words, but that's basically the message exactly the least.
[00:31:05] You don't feel bad about it. You guys both know.
[00:31:07] You know, you know, do you think that there's a difference between like the seal teams, for example,
[00:31:12] because you can't just, or I'm assuming you can't just replace the guy. So it's like it's worth it to invest as much as you possibly can.
[00:31:20] It's a million world and the seal teams. I thought this would be different. They're not different. They're the same.
[00:31:24] So in this civilian world, every company we go work with doesn't matter what the company is, there's no immediate replacement for somebody that knows a skill set for a software engineer.
[00:31:34] Is there a great guy waiting to come in the door? No. Is there a great welder waiting to come in the door?
[00:31:38] No. Is there just no matter what these things are? There's not a perfect replacement coming from it's the same thing.
[00:31:44] The seal teams, you don't have a ready replacement ready to come in. So of course, you've got a person. You've gone through the agony of finding them.
[00:31:50] You've gone through the agony of recruiting them. You've gone through the agony of bringing them on board, issuing them their gear,
[00:31:56] getting them their computer, letting them understand the culture of the company.
[00:32:01] I've done, I've invested so much. You don't want to just fire the person you want them to work out.
[00:32:06] And so that's why it's important on either military and civilian. You've made those investments.
[00:32:11] The best outcome is to have them succeed. That's always the best outcome.
[00:32:16] And so that's why you've got to be a great mentor, a great coach, a great leader.
[00:32:20] And I've talked about this before. I'm not going to go into it right now, but some people are allergic to the words mentor.
[00:32:25] And some people are allergic to the word coach. You get someone with an ego problem.
[00:32:29] And I go, hey, life, welcome to the Petune. I'm going to go ahead and mentor you.
[00:32:34] You don't know me? I don't need you. So there's a lot of people that they think, you know, that offends them.
[00:32:40] Because that implies, I've said this before, that implies that I know more than you do.
[00:32:44] And you know less than me. And I'm the big guy that's going to help you, little guy.
[00:32:48] Yeah. So sometimes that direct kind of coaching is not the right answer.
[00:32:52] But you know, clearly when you're getting to a point where somebody's going to fire, you need to do some direct coaching.
[00:32:57] So that's why we're right now beginning to done correctly.
[00:33:00] And one more point on that, which is a great, a great question, cop, but it's that's the easiest, I think, fall back.
[00:33:07] And we see that with a lot of leaders. We saw it in the military and we see it throughout, you know, companies and organizations that we work with now.
[00:33:13] Oftentimes, it's people that, well, this person is a good enough. I need to fire them and get someone else.
[00:33:20] And it almost, most of the time, that's not the case. Most of the time, it's they just need to be led.
[00:33:25] They need to be led. They need to have the mission better explain to them. They need to have, you know, the training.
[00:33:29] They need to have better resource. They need to have mentorship, just as Jockel's talking about.
[00:33:33] And so that's, that's an easy fallback. But it's, it's an excuse. And it's the opposite of extreme ownership.
[00:33:38] And really only the case of that torture genius, right, that, that we wrote about the person that just cannot take any direction, no matter how, how valid or, or our positive,
[00:33:50] I needed, or they can't take any criticism. They won't accept any responsibility. They, they have it all figured out.
[00:33:56] The world just can't see the genius and what they do. You know, that's kind of how they look at things.
[00:34:00] That's the only time that you really have to fire those folks. And generally, yeah, and the thing you didn't say, you hit, like, four points,
[00:34:08] you want to, one of the best places to start if someone's not doing what they're supposed to be doing is explain to them why they're doing it.
[00:34:13] What this is why I want you to do this, because then they can absorb it. They understand what the deep mission is.
[00:34:19] They understand kind of the commanders intent. So whenever someone's not doing this, and I, you know what,
[00:34:24] I'm just going to let him break out a story right now. Could do it. So I got a seven-year-old daughter.
[00:34:29] She can't ride or bike yet. Right, that's not good. You should be riding a bike at four, right? And my family is four.
[00:34:36] So she can't ride a bike yet. One or two. So, and she's, and it's become a thing. It's become an issue, right?
[00:34:44] So the other day, and we're going on a big camping trip, and it's going to be necessity to be able to ride the bike.
[00:34:50] So the other day, I started telling, okay, we got to go work on your bike riding. So I'm like, come, get your shoes on, get ready to go.
[00:34:55] And she's immediately goes defensive. I don't, I don't want to ride a bike. I can't ride a bike. I'm not good at it.
[00:35:00] And I started getting right, you know, no, listen, get your shoes on. I went that route like an idiot.
[00:35:05] And I luckily I didn't go too far down that road. And I just stopped myself after two direct orders with no explanation of why.
[00:35:12] And I said, hey, sweetie, we're going to go work on your bike ride. Let me tell you why.
[00:35:17] Because when we go camping, almost everywhere we're going to be going is going to be on the bike, especially when it's time to bike ride to go get ice cream.
[00:35:26] We're going to have to ride bikes to get ice cream. And so all I want to make sure is that you're able to come with us when we go to get ice cream.
[00:35:33] You know, I mean, I don't want to have to bring it back for you. I want you to come with us.
[00:35:37] And you could see, and I just completely changed attack.
[00:35:41] And she was said, you know, okay, let me get my shoes on.
[00:35:45] And literally, that's an example with a seven year old, right? And first of all, the first note there is that I missed your big leadership expert completely went down the wrong road.
[00:35:56] And it was like, listen to me because I'm the father and I know you do what I tell you.
[00:36:00] It's a wrong approach, 100% of the time even with the seven year old.
[00:36:03] And as soon as I went back and said, hey, here's why I want you. And you know, I told a bunch of other things, you know, it's really good.
[00:36:08] This is how we're going to do get around the sight and get around the beach.
[00:36:11] I don't know all these things and change the attitude. It literally changed the attitude in a minute.
[00:36:15] I wish I would have video tape the whole thing because we could have posted it.
[00:36:19] Yep.
[00:36:20] Yeah, that would have been a good little case study.
[00:36:22] Yeah, flying through with the ice cream money.
[00:36:25] The would you say back to the hiring and people, you know, you don't have just someone waiting in the wings to get higher to to fill that position, remember?
[00:36:33] Um, I kind of is the case on most of the time where if you fire someone and it's like, oh, we'll just replace them.
[00:36:42] Right. All that work and stuff. You got to rehire somebody. Ben, that you're wasting time and resources to do that.
[00:36:49] You could just be investing more and kind of always want your team to succeed.
[00:36:54] And sometimes people take that too far.
[00:36:56] You get someone that just wants a team to see why they're not going to fire somebody.
[00:36:59] So there's always a balance. There's always done in the economy there.
[00:37:01] But yes, that is true. So do you make the exception if let's say you know, let's say, hey, I hired this, I don't know, you weigh it.
[00:37:09] You weigh it.
[00:37:10] So if you do have a guy kind of waiting in the wings, I don't know my neighbor.
[00:37:14] Yeah.
[00:37:14] Of course.
[00:37:14] Hey, he's winning win.
[00:37:15] So you're going to invest less in this guy because we got this guy ready to go.
[00:37:18] Well, no, you won't invest less.
[00:37:20] You're not going to invest anything.
[00:37:21] If you've got someone that's going to come in and do the job and this person can't make it happen.
[00:37:24] It's failed.
[00:37:25] Right.
[00:37:25] Currently get rid of him.
[00:37:27] Yeah.
[00:37:28] Jack, there you go.
[00:37:31] Good times.
[00:37:33] Yeah.
[00:37:34] All right.
[00:37:35] Here we go.
[00:37:38] Jocco and life.
[00:37:41] Explain how you first met and worked together.
[00:37:45] In the second part is how do you say stay so disciplined every day.
[00:37:49] So life.
[00:37:52] Meeting Jocco.
[00:37:54] Good times.
[00:37:55] How was that?
[00:37:56] Well, we touched on this a little bit in podcast 11.
[00:38:01] But it was a good time.
[00:38:05] I checked in a, I checked in a sealed team three back in the spring of 2005.
[00:38:10] And I was taking over as the particular man for Charter with Tune.
[00:38:13] And I see, I see the, I see the name of the board, Jocco.
[00:38:17] And I already kind of heard his name around.
[00:38:19] People kind of knew he was.
[00:38:20] But I didn't, I didn't know much about Jocco.
[00:38:23] I was like, but our chief Tony, who we've also talked about.
[00:38:27] It was just a complete badass, amazing or your incredible combat leader.
[00:38:32] And he, he said, hey, Jocco is good to go.
[00:38:37] He's like, Jocco's who you want.
[00:38:38] It was like right on.
[00:38:39] I'm looking forward to meet Jocco.
[00:38:40] And this time, Jocco was the admiral's aid.
[00:38:42] So I think you were still busy kind of running around and trying to turn over those duties there.
[00:38:47] Very busy job, difficult job.
[00:38:50] But, but important job certainly.
[00:38:52] And so when Jocco finally showed up the team, the first time I remember seeing it was it was it we had a morning formation.
[00:38:59] So we all, we all go to, you know, our morning meeting and then we stand information out back of the team.
[00:39:05] And everyone musters up and, and I just wanted to look at a Jocco and hit zero smile on his face.
[00:39:12] Just a scow.
[00:39:14] No smile whatsoever.
[00:39:15] If I, I don't think you smile for the first two months.
[00:39:18] Yeah, I have two months.
[00:39:20] Two months more, it's horrible when I meet people for smile.
[00:39:22] And so he just came out to us and he just looked at us and said,
[00:39:25] I'm Jocco.
[00:39:26] Just staring through his like, you wanted to murder us and shaking her hand.
[00:39:31] It was me and then our other, the other, the other two, the other two, the other two.
[00:39:34] And he dealt with it and we knew each other well, we in the Delta Tudigameter and you know we're, we're like looking in each other.
[00:39:40] And he's like, he looks amazing.
[00:39:43] Jocco hates me, I can already tell.
[00:39:46] Yeah.
[00:39:47] Jocco hates everybody.
[00:39:50] But what I didn't realize later until after we worked together, he gave me a copy of the book about face,
[00:39:55] which we talked about many, you know, you've talked about many times on the podcast.
[00:39:59] And it's tremendously influential book.
[00:40:01] I know on you, certainly on me and on our entire generation about face by Colonel David Hackworth.
[00:40:06] I realized that that's what he did when he checked in and took over his unit, which he renamed the hardcore.
[00:40:13] And actually, he said, I didn't smile at anybody for six weeks or something like the first first couple of months he was there.
[00:40:20] I like to be like the harder than Hackworth, so I go to months.
[00:40:22] Wait, did you get it from Hackworth or was that, I think, you remember?
[00:40:26] I probably did.
[00:40:27] I ripped off so much stuff from Hackworth.
[00:40:29] I definitely ripped off like we renamed it, the task, which was called Bravo, we renamed it,
[00:40:34] Bruser, complete rip off from Hackworth.
[00:40:36] So, but I, it worked.
[00:40:39] Yeah.
[00:40:40] I always have a, I mean, you meet me.
[00:40:43] I'm going to be standing off as I'm not, I'm not a big, you know, I don't open up.
[00:40:47] I'm just not generally like that.
[00:40:48] Yeah.
[00:40:49] Oh, you'll say you did me like that.
[00:40:50] Yeah.
[00:40:51] Roku.
[00:40:52] All right.
[00:40:53] He pined in smile for the first two years that he knew you.
[00:40:55] Yeah.
[00:40:56] Yeah.
[00:40:57] The tough thing is though, is when you take over a position like that in the seal teams and lay if you know this,
[00:41:01] you don't know who you're getting.
[00:41:02] You don't know anything about them.
[00:41:04] You have guys that you are going to have to put trust and faith in.
[00:41:09] To lead guys and combat and it's, it's a very, that's the way I saw it.
[00:41:16] And, and I knew that with you guys, you guys with a platoon commanders, you guys are going to be all in the battlefield.
[00:41:23] Every day, you guys are going to be leading guys and combat.
[00:41:26] The most, there's going to be so much pressure on you guys.
[00:41:29] There was going to be violence.
[00:41:30] There was going to be war.
[00:41:32] And so I wanted to, and, and it was a chance, you're going to get fired.
[00:41:37] You know, I didn't want to be friends with you yet.
[00:41:40] I wanted to make sure you made it through certain wickets.
[00:41:43] And then obviously, the more I got to know you.
[00:41:45] And actually, there was, at this time, you know, I wasn't, I guess the word is, I wasn't as mature as I am right now.
[00:41:53] So I was talking to one of the, one of the senior officers at the team.
[00:41:58] And they were thinking about maybe switching guys around or moving the platoons around.
[00:42:02] And now this, at that point, you guys had, I had got to know you guys.
[00:42:06] You, and the Delta Ptun Commander, and realize that you guys were exactly who I wanted to be with me in combat.
[00:42:14] Exactly the type of guys that I knew would never,
[00:42:18] Back down would go forward and would kick ass.
[00:42:23] And I knew that.
[00:42:25] But this guy says to me, he says, hey, you know, we're thinking about maybe moving some of the Tune Commanders where,
[00:42:31] blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And I said, no, the two guys I got are the two guys I'm keeping.
[00:42:36] And they're like, well, you know, do they have the qualities that you want, you know, for a,
[00:42:40] And I said, they have the two qualities.
[00:42:44] He said the qualities, I said, I only need two qualities.
[00:42:47] They need to be able to listen, which means they're humble.
[00:42:50] And they need to be tough.
[00:42:52] And that's what those guys are.
[00:42:54] Because I dished out all kinds of crap on these guys.
[00:42:57] And they always just took it.
[00:42:59] We wouldn't have lasted long because we were all trained in Jiu Jitsu at 0,500 every morning.
[00:43:04] So we were all.
[00:43:06] And it was, we had an awesome task in it.
[00:43:09] And, you know, Jako mentored and trained us.
[00:43:12] And I'm sure he was frustrated with our performance initially because he had a lot more experience than me or
[00:43:17] Delta Platoon Commander.
[00:43:18] And yet he spent the time to train and mentor us and get us to where we needed to be.
[00:43:22] And by the time we deployed, you know, to the battlefield and Ramadi unleashed us on the battlefield to lead our
[00:43:28] wounds.
[00:43:29] And even underneath us, within the Platoon, our assistant Platoon commanders and our Platoon chief and our leading
[00:43:35] petty officer.
[00:43:36] I mean, our senior leaders, they were out leading their own illness on the battlefield.
[00:43:40] And so he had to have tremendous faith and trust in those guys.
[00:43:43] And we certainly built that.
[00:43:45] And it was all certainly due to Jako's leadership, TU Bruser.
[00:43:50] Thanks to Colonel David Hackworth.
[00:43:53] And, you know, everybody should know that it's late for an eye are the mouthpieces right now for a bunch of
[00:44:02] bad-ass guys that all stepped up.
[00:44:05] And when we were going through training, crushing it, we were going overseas, crushed it.
[00:44:08] We're two people from a big unit.
[00:44:12] And all those guys, you know, we're just getting after it.
[00:44:16] And we put them all.
[00:44:17] You know, we didn't, you know, we were just talking about firing people.
[00:44:19] We fired people from task unit, Bruser that didn't make the cut.
[00:44:22] And we tried.
[00:44:23] We did the things we were supposed to do.
[00:44:25] We mentored them.
[00:44:26] We helped them along.
[00:44:27] And at the end of the day, they weren't ready.
[00:44:30] And so we got rid of them.
[00:44:31] So when we went overseas, we were ready rock.
[00:44:35] We knew we could counter everybody.
[00:44:36] No doubt.
[00:44:37] No doubt.
[00:44:38] And that's, I think that's something that people, you know, miss.
[00:44:40] And we talked about that all the time that, you know, what makes a team the biggest lesson we
[00:44:45] brought back from the body was that, the leadership is the most important thing on the battlefield.
[00:44:49] Leaders at every level.
[00:44:51] So, you know, why we had an extraordinary task unit was because we had those leaders at every
[00:44:55] level of step-up.
[00:44:57] Not just me, not just Jaco, our squad leaders in charge of eight guys, our fire team leaders
[00:45:02] in charge of four guys.
[00:45:03] The two men, shoot, repair, down in the front line, shoot, or just step up, own his piece of
[00:45:09] the mission and let and got after it.
[00:45:12] And when you think about, actually, as I'm sitting here thinking about, because I really
[00:45:17] haven't thought about this too much, about the process of going from
[00:45:21] the side to side.
[00:45:22] I don't know these two guys.
[00:45:24] I don't trust these two guys.
[00:45:25] That's the main piece of it, right?
[00:45:27] I don't trust these two guys because I don't know them.
[00:45:31] And so how do you build that trust?
[00:45:33] And somebody asked me that the other day and it's just, it's a really good point of how
[00:45:37] do you build trust with people and the best way I think to build trust is to give trust.
[00:45:42] So I said, you know, I look at life and say, hey, you run this operation.
[00:45:46] You know, when it's, you run this training operation, I trust that you can do it.
[00:45:48] Now, when I give him that trust, he's looking at me.
[00:45:51] He's thinking himself, hey, this guy trusts me.
[00:45:53] So we're building the trust.
[00:45:56] Whereas if I say, life, I'll run this.
[00:45:58] You just, you just follow me.
[00:46:00] You just get in the back seat.
[00:46:01] You just step aside.
[00:46:03] I, that's where you were not building trust.
[00:46:05] And if we went on to play, if I had acted like that, hold a appointment, we got an appointment.
[00:46:08] I wouldn't have had built any trust.
[00:46:10] And I'll tell you one more thing.
[00:46:13] As I was sitting here thinking, we did everything together.
[00:46:17] I mean, no doubt.
[00:46:19] The dinner we worked out, we did jujitsu.
[00:46:21] This was you, me, the other, the other, the other, the other, the delta, the delta, the
[00:46:25] delta, we did everything together.
[00:46:27] I mean, you guys live together.
[00:46:29] And we all live the same neighborhood.
[00:46:31] We serve together.
[00:46:32] We live together.
[00:46:33] Everything was together.
[00:46:34] We debrief together.
[00:46:35] And that is how you get this bond and this massive amount of trust where I look at you
[00:46:42] and know, I don't have to say a word.
[00:46:44] You know the deal.
[00:46:45] I know the deal.
[00:46:47] And we go forward.
[00:46:48] One thing I was just thinking about too is this is something I think you brought to
[00:46:54] the table.
[00:46:55] I mean, as you were training us and mentoring us, it's been in time with us and building
[00:46:59] that trust.
[00:47:00] As we were going through all this training, you get ready for a comment appointment.
[00:47:03] If you come in and say, you talked about before, like, I'm going to coach you.
[00:47:06] I'm going to mentor you.
[00:47:07] Obviously, that makes people like, when you actually say, when you said to me, like,
[00:47:11] life, you got this, like, hey, run this.
[00:47:13] And then I'm putting a situation where I know Jack was going to a bunch of experience
[00:47:16] in this, this particular direct action, you know, raids.
[00:47:19] You just come back from Iraq and had a bunch of experience.
[00:47:22] I didn't have any experience in that.
[00:47:23] I've let a few cyber operations, you know, but that was it.
[00:47:27] And I didn't done any, you know, direct action raids like that.
[00:47:30] So here we are getting, getting, I'm getting thrust into it.
[00:47:34] I'm in charge.
[00:47:35] I got to make some calls.
[00:47:36] It's humbling.
[00:47:37] So what does that make me do?
[00:47:38] It makes me like, hey, Jack, what do you think about this?
[00:47:41] Hey, what do you know, there's kind of what I'm thinking here.
[00:47:42] What do you think?
[00:47:43] It opens up the conversation of like, hey, I'm looking for mentorship.
[00:47:49] I'm looking for training rather than I got it all figured out.
[00:47:51] So even had I thought that initially, you know, at that point when you don't have experience,
[00:47:56] you don't even know what you don't know.
[00:47:57] So when you put people in a situation that there, it's beyond their comfort zone, it's outside
[00:48:02] of, you know, their real knowledge base, they look, they're looking to you for help.
[00:48:07] They're looking to you for guidance.
[00:48:08] That's a good point.
[00:48:09] And actually, somebody, somebody, we were working with a company the other day on the
[00:48:12] company's coast and we were going through something.
[00:48:15] And we were, you were describing me, quote unquote mentoring you.
[00:48:20] And again, I hate to use that word.
[00:48:23] But when you describe it, you said, hey, Jack will ask me this and then he asked me this
[00:48:28] and then he asked me this.
[00:48:30] And what I was doing was saying, hey, life, why are you doing that right there in
[00:48:33] Lafson?
[00:48:34] Well, this is what I thought.
[00:48:35] And I said, okay, well, what would you do then if this happened and Lafson?
[00:48:38] Ooh, that's a good point.
[00:48:39] And so instead of me saying, life, don't do that, you do this right here.
[00:48:43] I didn't do that.
[00:48:44] I was asking him questions and letting him find the answer.
[00:48:47] And also the other point of this for real is I wasn't just asking him the question, like,
[00:48:52] so that I could guide him down the perfect path.
[00:48:54] I'm legitimately asking him, like, why are you doing that right there?
[00:48:57] Because maybe he's got an idea and I said, that could be positive.
[00:49:00] I can talk to that example because that was in the kill house.
[00:49:05] Yeah.
[00:49:06] We're working to the kill house and, you know, for those in our neighborhood of
[00:49:08] the kill house, as you've got rooms and hallways in a building and oftentimes it's
[00:49:15] ballistic wall so we can shoot live fire in there.
[00:49:19] Something swat teams use or any military in the world, but it's, it's, you work on
[00:49:23] your close quarter combat skills or CQC where you, you, you, you, you, you,
[00:49:26] interdoorways and you work together as a team clearing these halls and rooms and
[00:49:30] moving through a, a, a target building in a training environment and often they can
[00:49:34] change them and move the, move the hallways around or change doorways.
[00:49:38] So, so it mixes it up every time you can't really get used to, you know, doing it one
[00:49:41] way or the other and, and so I'd been told as an officer, my job was to stand in the
[00:49:47] back and just take the report.
[00:49:49] So, that's what I did and the report being how many, how many people have been shot,
[00:49:55] how many hostages have been captured, how many seals have been wounded, exactly.
[00:49:58] I've got the little quarterback sleeve on my arm with a grease pencil and I'm just
[00:50:03] standing in the back doing that.
[00:50:04] The question I'll ask me was, hey, life, he, he, he, he, it wasn't condescending.
[00:50:11] It was, you know, the tone really mattered and he said, well, why are you in the back?
[00:50:15] And he was very curious about why I was in the back, what was my tactical reasoning for
[00:50:20] that?
[00:50:21] And I looked at him and I was like, that's what I was told to do and someone who had
[00:50:24] told me that didn't really have any real experience on, on a real battlefield and say,
[00:50:30] well, you're, you're an officer, you just stand in the back.
[00:50:32] And so, so I thought I'm going to aggressively do that.
[00:50:35] That's what I'm going to do and that's, that's where I was aggressively standing in the
[00:50:38] back.
[00:50:39] And I'm a pretty default, I'm a pretty default aggressive leader and I was like, hey, if my
[00:50:42] job is to stand in the back and take this report, I'm going to do it better than anybody
[00:50:46] watching this.
[00:50:47] And when Jocco asked me that, he's like, well, why are you in the back?
[00:50:49] And I was like, because that's where I thought I was supposed to be.
[00:50:52] And then he asked me another question was, do you know what's going on in the front of the
[00:50:56] train right now?
[00:50:57] You know, I've got, I've got 15 guys spread out through the build, they're in different
[00:51:01] rooms and stuff.
[00:51:02] And I was like, I have no idea what's going on in the train up front.
[00:51:06] And so then the follow-up on question, I was like, well, how can you, how can you lead this?
[00:51:12] How can you lead this team?
[00:51:13] How can you be the commander control for your team if you don't know what's going on up
[00:51:17] front?
[00:51:18] I was like, I mean, it was just light bulb on the go off.
[00:51:20] Like, I have to, I have to be in a position where I know where you know where I need to
[00:51:24] be.
[00:51:25] And that was, it showed me that I was, I was not only was I wrong and where I was, I was
[00:51:31] failing as a leader and failing my team if I couldn't actually lead them and know what's
[00:51:34] going on.
[00:51:35] So the proper position for me was forward somewhere in the middle generally, and I can move
[00:51:39] around.
[00:51:40] I didn't want to get so far forward that I'm getting sucked into every room clearance
[00:51:44] or getting in a gunfighting in the hallway because I got to be able to stand back and
[00:51:47] see what's going on, but not so far in the back that I don't know what's going on up front.
[00:51:51] So that he never needed to tell me that again.
[00:51:54] It was, I knew where I needed to be, I understood that it made sense to me.
[00:51:58] And I think if you want to, that's a great example of being able to successfully mentor your
[00:52:03] people so they understand, you know, to ask them those questions in a way that's meaningful,
[00:52:06] it's not condescending, it's not, you know, I know everything, you know, why are you doing
[00:52:12] that, but, uh, or don't do this, but, but actually ask me the questions and I didn't have
[00:52:16] a legitimate answer.
[00:52:17] LIBOLVE goes off.
[00:52:18] Nobody ever needs to tell me that again.
[00:52:19] Yeah, I feel like that's, I don't like such a critical component, the tone.
[00:52:24] But you can say the same exact question, but you say it in all these different tone.
[00:52:28] So like, like, what were you, you know, how you, like, you always say this, like, what
[00:52:32] were you thinking there on that thing or that went down as opposed to, what were you thinking,
[00:52:37] you know, like that kind of thing, that's common.
[00:52:39] Well, you thinking like you're so dumb.
[00:52:40] And I think the factor is there is that I recognize, I truly recognize that I could be learning
[00:52:46] something and there might be some kind of, I don't see, and I'll tell you what,
[00:52:49] and they've talked about this earlier, man, combat is humbling, and I've been in situations
[00:52:54] combat where I did not have control.
[00:52:57] And I did not do good.
[00:53:00] And I look at those situations, and I don't know if that's going to happen again in, in
[00:53:04] whatever situation.
[00:53:05] So my mind is not sitting there saying, I know everything, because I know I don't.
[00:53:10] So when I'm asking those questions, I am legitimately asking you the question, hey, Echo,
[00:53:15] what, what, what do you think when you, when you splice this thing together or what
[00:53:18] are you thinking when you, when you posted this thing on that video, what's the purpose
[00:53:23] of that, you know, and I actually want to know.
[00:53:26] So that's why I'm not saying Echo, why the hell did you post that?
[00:53:29] You know what I mean?
[00:53:30] I generally, I genuinely am not, I'm not overconfident and don't think I know everything.
[00:53:37] That was one of the biggest lessons, in addition to this leadership, the most important
[00:53:41] thing on the battlefield, one of the other big lessons, Aaron was humility.
[00:53:44] And that's, you know, at that time, I had deployed to Iraq before, so I was a one-potin
[00:53:48] wonder, one cruise wonder, exactly.
[00:53:51] Wow, you pumped, chill.
[00:53:54] And you really feel, that happens when you have, I have deployed or I've been overseas,
[00:54:00] and I've done a few combat operations, you get that in your bill, and yet you don't even
[00:54:03] realize what it feels like to be overwhelmed, to have things that are out of your control,
[00:54:09] to have the enemy flank you or do something that you hadn't for seeing.
[00:54:12] And I think those just sustained combat operations for almost seven months in Ramadi, just
[00:54:18] a day in and day out of intense gun battles was something that it was humbling.
[00:54:24] And I think that was one of the biggest lessons that we were able to come back and pass
[00:54:26] on to others was just, wow, if you think you got to figure it out, you haven't really
[00:54:31] done anything to you.
[00:54:32] Yeah, and the other thing that happens, and this is actually, to exactly to your point,
[00:54:39] everybody goes overseas, and they do some combat operations, and they don't get challenged,
[00:54:45] they don't get tested truly, and it actually falsely increases their confidence.
[00:54:49] And we see this in the business world too, like you have a company that came out of the
[00:54:53] gate, and they just timed things right, they were ahead of the curve, and also they're
[00:54:57] doing fantastic, and they think they can make no mistakes, and they're not humble.
[00:55:02] So they're success, they're success actually makes them get arrogant.
[00:55:08] And I mean, this is real obvious, I mean, look at Ronda Rousey, right?
[00:55:11] Ronda Rousey, she thought, hey, I'm good to go, I'm going to beat all these people, and
[00:55:16] that that arrogance will bite you.
[00:55:18] And so I think we saw that in the seal teams where guys go overseas do a quote on quote,
[00:55:25] combat deployment, they'd get some experience, but it wasn't like hardcore, sustained combat
[00:55:31] operations.
[00:55:33] And so that that actually, it would be a negative, it almost be better not to have
[00:55:39] any experience, almost, it's probably better to have some experience, but you definitely,
[00:55:43] so my point is whether you're in combat, whether you're going into combat, whether you've
[00:55:46] been in combat, whether you're a business, whether you're in a sport, just because you've
[00:55:49] had some success, don't start cutting corners, don't let don't get arrogant.
[00:55:54] I mean, this is common sense stuff, but we still see it all the time.
[00:55:58] Yeah, when you're in the mix, you just, you're just compelled to do it, like I'm winning.
[00:56:03] Yeah, so I don't need to train any harder.
[00:56:06] I don't need to train any harder.
[00:56:08] I'm good to go.
[00:56:09] It's like that guy running the mile, you know, the guy who's running the mile, right?
[00:56:12] He's beating everyone, he's winning, but then you got the guy who's had some adversity
[00:56:16] through the four laps and at the end, he's turning it on, and the guy who ran the
[00:56:20] might as I call him cruising in the guy past his own.
[00:56:22] Same thing.
[00:56:23] So as these would be the underdog, because it's, you can just take advantage of, of, of, of
[00:56:29] overconfidence of arrogance of someone who just doesn't think, yeah, it's like, you're
[00:56:34] saying, like, I'd go into Iraq, we don't, we don't a bunch of operations, but I'll
[00:56:39] tell you, in my mind, I didn't feel like I had been tested, I knew, and a lot, I felt
[00:56:44] like, hey, we still got to be, that's why we always thought, worst case scenario, what's
[00:56:47] the worst thing that's going to happen, what's how bad can this get, that's what I was
[00:56:50] always looking at, and still look at.
[00:56:53] And when we were running training, when I was running training, when you were running
[00:56:56] training, we were always looking at that.
[00:56:57] What, we want, I want the training to be harder than combat, you know?
[00:56:59] So keep your ego in check, people.
[00:57:03] And we, we talked to leaders about that all the time.
[00:57:05] I just had a conversation with the leader, not too long ago about how he's telling me everything
[00:57:10] is going good.
[00:57:11] He's implemented the stuff we talked about.
[00:57:12] He's, he's rocking, rolling these principles.
[00:57:14] His team's going great.
[00:57:15] I'm like, okay, well, we're going to go bad.
[00:57:19] We're going to go bad.
[00:57:20] You know, where, what, what did you miss?
[00:57:22] What risk did you, you know, are you not taking the proper steps?
[00:57:24] What's the worst case scenario that can happen?
[00:57:25] I think good leaders are going to be doing that all the time.
[00:57:29] Never going to be satisfied, always thinking, what did I miss?
[00:57:31] There's always this little butterflies there.
[00:57:33] And I think when you're, when you're running an op, I think I got it all figured out.
[00:57:36] What bad could possibly happen?
[00:57:38] We're going to crush the enemy.
[00:57:40] Watch out.
[00:57:41] It's, it's going to go bad for you.
[00:57:42] All right.
[00:57:43] Moving on to the next question.
[00:57:45] I'll tell you though.
[00:57:48] That's easy about being the underdog is that not much is expected out of you.
[00:57:52] So even if you fail it, everyone's like whatever, it doesn't throw up any kind of red flag.
[00:57:56] It doesn't move the needle.
[00:57:57] But when you do good, it moves the needle because no one expects much out of you.
[00:58:03] Yep, being the underdog is the easier position.
[00:58:06] Less pressure.
[00:58:07] Yeah, it can be seen that way.
[00:58:09] Yeah.
[00:58:10] For sure.
[00:58:11] Next question.
[00:58:12] Uh, here we go.
[00:58:14] Jocquan life, what once the crisis started in Benghazi was a QRF practical.
[00:58:25] You know, this is something that there's been so much discussion.
[00:58:28] Obviously with the, they heated political debate, you know, election season.
[00:58:34] And a lot's been said about Benghazi.
[00:58:36] And I think what bothers me so much about that is the answer is yes.
[00:58:43] Of course, a QRF is practical and a QRF should have been set up and ready to go in the event
[00:58:49] that this happened.
[00:58:50] And so the issue with this is, you know, with Benghazi and why it's a big deal and why it's
[00:58:56] important is a particularly for those of us in the military is because when US military
[00:59:08] personnel are employees of the US government anyway, are out in harm's way and they're
[00:59:15] calling for help.
[00:59:19] Leaders, real leaders are going to step up and get that help to them and make it happen.
[00:59:25] And I think, you know, what, whether or not a QRF, which is a quick, quick reaction
[00:59:32] force, we're talking about sending in a, you know, a force, maybe it's Marines, maybe
[00:59:36] soldiers, maybe special operations, for maybe it's just air support, maybe it's air support,
[00:59:39] close air support, which could have gotten there certainly, you know, in the matter of hours,
[00:59:45] it's those things would probably have made a huge difference on that battle field.
[00:59:52] With you have saved the lives of Thai woods, who was our team made in Glint, Glindority,
[00:59:57] another team made.
[00:59:59] And those, the two state department officials lost their lives, including the ambassador
[01:00:03] Chris Stevens, I don't know.
[01:00:07] I don't know that it would have saved their lives and it no one could say that, but that's
[01:00:10] not what leaders are asking themselves, when they don't know the outcome, I think a true,
[01:00:15] good leader is going to, is going to, when bad things are happening is going to, say,
[01:00:20] how can we resolve this?
[01:00:21] How can we help this guys?
[01:00:22] And I think the, the hard thing when you look at the scenario is from everything that
[01:00:25] we've seen and understand about what happened in the wake of Benghazi is when the call
[01:00:30] came in that US forces are under attack.
[01:00:34] The immediate response was how can we twist this?
[01:00:38] How can we, how can we make this better for us politically?
[01:00:41] Spin it.
[01:00:42] How can we spin it?
[01:00:43] Yeah, exactly.
[01:00:44] So how can we do that?
[01:00:45] Well, we Libya had to be, because that was the party line of the time, Libya had to be
[01:00:50] a big win.
[01:00:51] We liberated Libya, you know, US forces went in air power, liberated Libya from the, you
[01:00:57] know, evil dictator, more markadofi.
[01:01:00] That has to be a victory force.
[01:01:01] We can't say that al-Qaeda or terrorist groups have taken over the threat levels there.
[01:01:06] So we have to put a spin on this.
[01:01:08] So let's, let's, let's, we can't say that there's a threat.
[01:01:11] Let's come up with a story about the video and how the video and flame, you know,
[01:01:17] hatred against Americans and and blame that.
[01:01:20] And so that was the crisis response.
[01:01:22] And no one ever said, send every asset we have to help those guys.
[01:01:28] And you know, there's all this, you know, the paperwork and the permissions that are required
[01:01:34] to enter another country's airspace.
[01:01:35] Let me tell you something.
[01:01:38] If someone, if the president, if, if the very top says, get US aircraft there now, they're
[01:01:43] going to get there now.
[01:01:45] And what is, what is Libya going to do for us?
[01:01:48] I mean, particularly when they're a nation that's not, I mean, they've got a pseudo government
[01:01:52] at that point post, you know, post revolution.
[01:01:54] So it was, it's a travesty.
[01:01:57] And I think it's a real stain on American honor that when US troops were in harm's way,
[01:02:03] calling for help, America did not send help.
[01:02:08] So a couple things from my perspective.
[01:02:11] Number one, and you kind of touched on this, the preparation was awful.
[01:02:15] There's all kinds of documents showing that these guys at, at the felt the threat, analyze
[01:02:21] the threat, knew the threat was real and did not get the support that they wanted down
[01:02:25] there.
[01:02:26] That's just step number one.
[01:02:28] So from the beginning, never mind once this, once once, once, once, once, once the crisis
[01:02:33] started, the crisis shouldn't have started.
[01:02:36] You should be proactive.
[01:02:37] You should be aggressive in your contingency planning.
[01:02:40] You should be aggressive in your security measures.
[01:02:42] You should be aggressive against a known and quantifiable threat all the time.
[01:02:48] So so there's number one, there's the first failure.
[01:02:50] Then the second failure, you already said it.
[01:02:53] I'm going to tell you what, you got American troops in harm's way.
[01:02:55] We are going to do everything possible to get there now.
[01:03:00] And you know what, how long is that crisis going to last?
[01:03:03] You don't know.
[01:03:05] You don't know how long the crisis is going to last.
[01:03:07] So if the crisis starts and I know it's going on, I'm sending help.
[01:03:11] And I'm sending the first, the first help I can get out that I'm sending there.
[01:03:13] And it seems like an established, more help I'm going to send them to.
[01:03:16] And if the crisis is over and the, and the embassy is over running 20 minutes or we're
[01:03:19] too late, okay, we did our best.
[01:03:22] If the crisis lasts six hours and the, the patriotic heroes that stood the line and fought,
[01:03:30] held those guys for five hours or seven hours long enough to get support there.
[01:03:35] Then guess what, we win everyone's alive and we did our job.
[01:03:39] So it was just a disaster across the board.
[01:03:43] And like you said, a real, a real, not only a stain on American presence in the world
[01:03:50] that they have an ambassador, a sitting ambassador murdered, but our reaction to it was completely,
[01:04:00] it was, it was a travesty and not to mention, of course, the loss of some real heroes
[01:04:06] that stood up and held the line, even without the support that they needed from their
[01:04:14] country at that time, which is hard for me to even say.
[01:04:18] I'll, I'll back us down a little bit, take a little breath, throw you a little softball
[01:04:23] from the, from the troopers out there.
[01:04:25] And this is actually something might be a softball lake, but I know you're passionate
[01:04:29] about this.
[01:04:31] What's the best barbecue in Texas?
[01:04:35] That's, those are fighting words right there because people have their favorites.
[01:04:40] That's for sure.
[01:04:41] You know what, today we're going to talk about, you know, politics, we're going to talk
[01:04:45] about religion, we're going to talk, I said, life, we're, they're asking about barbecue.
[01:04:48] I don't know man, touch you subject, heavy, we went, I want to get there man, I don't want
[01:04:52] to, I don't want to get a bunch of Twitter haters.
[01:04:55] Say the wrong barbecue, I don't know.
[01:04:57] Any two Texans going to take their barbecue very seriously, there's no doubt about that.
[01:05:01] I, it's, it's certainly a passion down there in Texas, and it's, it's a big deal, but I
[01:05:07] got to go with, I got to go with Cooper's bit barbecue, whereas I know, it's in Lano,
[01:05:12] Texas, the original, they've had a couple of, opened up and Austin area now, but it
[01:05:17] is, it's awesome.
[01:05:18] You walk in that place, you get to just a big plastic tray, and there's just giant
[01:05:24] smokers around, you go up and you just like, I want that piece of brisket, I want those
[01:05:29] ribs, I want that sausage, and you just take it and you weigh it, and then you just get
[01:05:34] after it.
[01:05:35] Jocca, you probably wouldn't like, I mean, I know that now that you're going to vegan,
[01:05:38] you probably, yeah.
[01:05:39] Jocca was not a vegan either for those out there, they're listening, he is very, very
[01:05:44] much a carnivore.
[01:05:47] Awesome.
[01:05:48] Wait, what's this body again?
[01:05:50] It's Cooper's bit barbecue in Lano, Texas.
[01:05:53] All right, next question, is there a way to practice, is it back to leadership?
[01:06:02] Is there a way to practice the hard conversations?
[01:06:05] I'm not known for my delicate finesse.
[01:06:08] Well, I'm glad you're not known for your delicate finesse because neither am I, generally.
[01:06:15] I'm a pretty direct guy, and I'm a de-falte aggressive leader, I think, by nature, but
[01:06:21] that's something that I learned from Jocca, really, you always use jujitsu as an analogy,
[01:06:27] and how the direct approach, and particularly, as a white boat wonder myself, when you're
[01:06:33] trying to jujitsu, it's like, you're going for the three moves that you know, people know
[01:06:38] it's coming and it's very easy to defend.
[01:06:40] So if you can set up like, I'm going for this, but then I'm going for something else,
[01:06:44] and it's that indirect approach, generally, generally is more successful.
[01:06:49] You just talked about that with the ice cream, ride the bicycle, your daughter.
[01:06:53] So I mean, I think that's, there's so many examples that we're receiving, and often that
[01:06:57] direct approach, a my way to do it this way, just doesn't get the job done.
[01:07:01] I think, is there a way to practice the hard conversations?
[01:07:05] 100% there is, and so many people think they're above rehearsals role play.
[01:07:12] Those are those are things that are critical to seal performers in the battlefield.
[01:07:16] I think a lot of people don't realize that we actually, we do rehearsals and walk throughs
[01:07:23] before every single operation.
[01:07:26] And we try to mimic that.
[01:07:28] Maybe it's, you know, we're out training in the desert.
[01:07:29] We might even have like, you know, we might lay out rocks or put tape on the ground, so
[01:07:35] it mimics bill.
[01:07:36] If we, if there's not actual buildings to use for training facilities or, and we have
[01:07:41] everyone stand together in their sticks, and we know who's getting on the helicopter here,
[01:07:45] and these guys are going to be on the second helicopter there.
[01:07:47] Those are the kind of things that allow people in the dark of night when it's crazy and
[01:07:51] it's chaotic to go to the right place, do what they're supposed to do.
[01:07:54] Everything is simple as unloading from a vehicle.
[01:07:58] Just, we would practice that.
[01:07:59] We had this giant truck that we use.
[01:08:05] When the ID threats sort of getting really bad and Iraq initially, seal, seal, soldiers were
[01:08:11] riding in the back on benches in the back of a home.
[01:08:14] They kind of an open bed like a truck, truck type back.
[01:08:17] And then the ID threat, the roadside bomb threats sort of getting so dangerous that we had
[01:08:20] to put guys inside armor.
[01:08:22] And so that means that the home piece, we're going to only care five guys, you know, if
[01:08:26] you don't have guys in the back.
[01:08:27] So, so we had to take this giant, we call it the man truck.
[01:08:30] And we, I think we nicknamed it big Ziv.
[01:08:33] So, it was our truck.
[01:08:34] And it was a big five-ton truck and, you know, a flat bed truck and they, I don't know
[01:08:41] if previous seals or the army had done it, it worries.
[01:08:44] But we had welded these a quarter inch steel plates around it.
[01:08:49] And then we had, then we had sandbags in the bottom of it.
[01:08:53] So that was our protection.
[01:08:55] And most of the sandbags were like torn up because of boots going in and out.
[01:08:58] And so you're just sitting on sand.
[01:09:00] So if you got blown up, it would not have provided a whole lot of protection from
[01:09:04] the way.
[01:09:05] But getting it out of the truck is substantial.
[01:09:07] When you got 20 guys sitting in the back of that truck and there, you know, with some of
[01:09:12] our guys, Iraqi soldiers that were with us, our junkies.
[01:09:16] And you got to open, swing open this giant, heavy, you know, quarter inch steel doors
[01:09:20] in the back.
[01:09:21] And then you got to put a ladder out and everyone's got to climb down that ladder.
[01:09:24] That takes some time.
[01:09:26] And guess what?
[01:09:27] Back that, that can turn into three-stooges real quick.
[01:09:30] No doubt.
[01:09:31] Just follow up.
[01:09:32] We've had guys fall off and trucks like that and dislocate their shoulders and literally
[01:09:37] have to get sent home.
[01:09:38] But more important, if it takes three minutes or four minutes to do something like that,
[01:09:42] that's three or four minutes that you don't have guns pointed in every direction.
[01:09:47] And it's critical.
[01:09:48] So we had to practice that and practice that until we could do it in less than 30 seconds.
[01:09:52] And then if we have two different assault forces, we got to make sure assault ones line
[01:09:56] up on the left side of the road, assault two's line up on the right side of the road.
[01:09:58] I mean, those things that you, we have to practice that over and over and over again.
[01:10:02] And it seems really juvenile.
[01:10:04] It seems very elementary.
[01:10:06] But if you took the time to practice that performance, your performance is so much better
[01:10:12] when you actually get out of the dark and night, the chaos of being an unknown area.
[01:10:15] And we're worried about bad guys and where they are and all those things happen and make
[01:10:18] it sure people went to the place they need to go.
[01:10:20] So having those conversations, practicing it, sitting down with someone who understands how
[01:10:25] that person might respond for a tough conversation, role play.
[01:10:28] They try different scenarios, whether it's a softball or easy scenario, it's a difficult
[01:10:34] scenario and it's the worst case scenario.
[01:10:37] The worst case scenario.
[01:10:38] So the more you do that, the better it is.
[01:10:40] And this is something that Jack and I have done quite a bit with companies we work with
[01:10:44] is role play.
[01:10:45] You got to counsel again.
[01:10:46] And it's easy just to say, well, you screwed up, you were firing you.
[01:10:49] But if it's, this is a good guy.
[01:10:51] He messed up.
[01:10:52] You got to try to get him on board to use this plan or you have to chalk him down from
[01:10:55] doing this out and you know, he did something out and down that is making the company look
[01:10:59] bad.
[01:11:00] Whatever it is.
[01:11:01] And you have to talk to them and that role play is critical and it makes you better
[01:11:04] and it enables you to perform better.
[01:11:07] And so yes, you have to do that.
[01:11:09] They're hers.
[01:11:10] Yep.
[01:11:11] Three or four iterations with someone dealing with in a role play scenario.
[01:11:15] They get better.
[01:11:16] You can literally see them get better.
[01:11:18] It's pretty cool.
[01:11:20] We got pretty good getting in and out of big zev.
[01:11:23] Nice.
[01:11:24] All right.
[01:11:25] Next question, there was recent news about combatives in the seal teams.
[01:11:31] What was the evolution towards MMA?
[01:11:36] So the seal teams has gone through a whole plethora of various kind of hand-to-hand combat
[01:11:44] type things.
[01:11:45] When I first came in, there was something called scars.
[01:11:51] And it's good for scientific, something, something, something, something.
[01:11:55] It was, it sort of looked like a Kung Fu.
[01:11:59] Yeah, it was very, actually I think it was based on San Su, right?
[01:12:05] Which is a martial art.
[01:12:07] Anyways, so that was kind of when I showed up there, then we kind of morphed towards
[01:12:13] something a little bit more modern and then we morphed towards something else.
[01:12:16] And so we were constantly kind of looking and searching for something that was efficient.
[01:12:21] We ended up going with this one contractor for several years.
[01:12:27] And so use this one contractor for several years and then eventually, especially once
[01:12:34] the war started.
[01:12:35] And we had guys on a regular basis doing hand-to-hand combat against the enemy.
[01:12:41] And for those who don't understand when that would happen, if we go into a building and
[01:12:45] there's people in there that don't have weapons.
[01:12:48] Well, you can't just gun them all down.
[01:12:50] You have to get control of them.
[01:12:52] If they're military age males, you've probably got a cuff on you got to get them down to
[01:12:55] the ground, you got to control them.
[01:12:56] Now there's a whole variety of things that can happen.
[01:12:59] But guy can be unarmed but literally combat-if, you know, he can square up and say, okay,
[01:13:04] it's on.
[01:13:05] We've seen that.
[01:13:06] And people might be surprised to hear that people actually do that.
[01:13:09] You know, you got a gang of big tough seals there that are going to put you down.
[01:13:13] We've had multiple people like not comply.
[01:13:15] Oh, you're not going to put me down.
[01:13:17] And it doesn't usually go too well for them.
[01:13:19] So that's one of the spectrum.
[01:13:21] Then you go down the spectrum where it's someone that just is scared and they're frozen
[01:13:24] with fear.
[01:13:25] But you're yelling at them to get down and air or big, which is, you know, your air
[01:13:29] or big's not great.
[01:13:30] You're yelling at them.
[01:13:31] They're scared.
[01:13:32] They freeze.
[01:13:33] So now what are you going to do?
[01:13:34] You can't just say they're going to keep yelling at them.
[01:13:35] You've got to get them to the ground, get them to control.
[01:13:36] So you continue to clearance.
[01:13:37] Then there's people that are going to-so you've got-and they all the way down to someone
[01:13:39] that just, you know, they see, they see you, they put their hands up, they lay down.
[01:13:42] That's great.
[01:13:43] That's easy.
[01:13:44] As we started getting into these scenarios on a regular basis, we realized that the system
[01:13:51] that had been taught was ineffective.
[01:13:53] And also luckily we had a bunch of guys and sealed teams that were into due-jitsu and
[01:13:59] mojitai and resting and MMA in general.
[01:14:01] And so that kind of came in and started-people started saying, hey, why don't you just
[01:14:06] do this?
[01:14:08] And this will actually get a person under control.
[01:14:10] And actually you told a good story to me today when we were talking about jujitsu about
[01:14:15] that, tell that.
[01:14:16] That's a good little explanation of where we were and where we got through.
[01:14:20] Yeah, my first butthon, we went through that training and that was our prisoner handling
[01:14:26] training.
[01:14:27] So that's what we did and we practiced handling prisoners and searching them and put them
[01:14:31] on the ground all that stuff, handle them.
[01:14:34] And so, you know, we're told this is the way to do it.
[01:14:35] This is, you know, well, when we start going against role players, I remember one in particular
[01:14:40] we're going against, we're in the kill house and we're moving through and of course we're,
[01:14:46] this isn't live fire.
[01:14:47] You're going to get to role players.
[01:14:48] They're shooting back at you with simunition, which is a paint round through our actual
[01:14:52] weapons.
[01:14:53] It's great training because then you have to deal with people.
[01:14:55] You have to actually wrestle with people.
[01:14:57] You actually have to engage targets or they're shooting back at you outstanding training.
[01:15:01] And we talked about that before.
[01:15:03] But it is one of the things that really stood out to me was I remember one particular
[01:15:08] guy, one of the role players was a pretty large guy.
[01:15:12] I mean, he's probably 6'4, 6'5, like 250 pound guy, big guy.
[01:15:17] And me and this guy wasn't a seal.
[01:15:20] He wasn't a seal.
[01:15:21] I think he was a gunners made or something.
[01:15:22] He was just violent cheering to come up and be a role player.
[01:15:24] Great, you know, helps us with training.
[01:15:26] And so, you know, a small role player, you're able to get them down the ground, hold them
[01:15:30] and, you know, get a search on them.
[01:15:33] And me and another one of our guys, who is a big guy.
[01:15:38] This guy arms big around my legs.
[01:15:40] A seal was a large, large man, very strong guy.
[01:15:44] And we grabbed this guy.
[01:15:46] We're trying to get him the ground and he's not being compliant.
[01:15:49] He's been, he's resistin' us.
[01:15:51] And it's hard.
[01:15:52] I mean, this is difficult for me and this other guy.
[01:15:55] And we're not, we're not small guys.
[01:15:56] I mean, we're strong guys.
[01:15:58] We're, we're getting this guy to the ground, but he's not cooperating.
[01:16:00] And we're having a hard time keeping him down.
[01:16:02] Another one of our guys who was actually a lot smaller.
[01:16:05] So he was probably 180 pound guy, I'm 200 pounds and the other seal was a scram.
[01:16:09] It's probably 230 pound guy.
[01:16:11] And he's, so this, this other seal comes up.
[01:16:15] And he's like 180 pound guy.
[01:16:18] He's trained you, too.
[01:16:19] He's got a little bit of a energy.
[01:16:20] He spent a little time, you know, at the Gracie Academy and had, was one of the,
[01:16:25] one of the first guys I knew who was pretty skilled in juditsu.
[01:16:29] And he, he gets this, this, this big guy, you know, the role player's wrestling
[01:16:34] around that gunners made and not cooperating.
[01:16:37] We're wrestling around with him.
[01:16:38] He comes up there, gets a guy, gets a knee on him, goes like knee on stomach.
[01:16:42] And the guy, the guy can't do anything.
[01:16:46] And you know, here's this 180 pound guy completely controlling this large guy.
[01:16:51] The two of us couldn't do before.
[01:16:53] And I was like, I need to search for an excuse.
[01:16:55] It's just, it works.
[01:16:57] And it was just a, it was just a, it was just a, a body control, I can control this guy.
[01:17:01] I mean, knee on stomach, get his arms, got him zip tied, done.
[01:17:04] I mean, he's, and he actually, when we debrief with him, you know, he, he comes, now
[01:17:08] it now he's out of his role player, he's like, he's like, hey, that was pretty cool.
[01:17:12] And then I think he actually probably started training some of you, just because he, he,
[01:17:15] he realized like just how effective it was for a guy who really understood body control,
[01:17:20] to be able to just get on the on him, hold him down, you know, and be able to control
[01:17:23] him even though he was half the size of this.
[01:17:25] It interestingly, that's almost, that's why most of us start because it happens to,
[01:17:30] you know, you're like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, that was like, you know, how is this guy?
[01:17:34] Yeah, you know, he looks so much smaller than me and he's just crushing me.
[01:17:38] How's that possible?
[01:17:39] Yeah.
[01:17:40] So that was, you know, and that, that case that you just described happened,
[01:17:44] the, you know, every day in the seal team, somebody else that knew some GG2,
[01:17:49] you know, would, would have that scenario happen and eventually the, the, the, the correct
[01:17:56] answer rises up and people say, hey, look, this is working.
[01:17:59] This is not working.
[01:18:00] And so that's how we ended up with, with more of an MMA based approach, because it's
[01:18:04] not just pure GG2, it's, it's everything.
[01:18:08] It's moi tie, it's boxing.
[01:18:09] It's, it's, you know, weapons retention pieces to it.
[01:18:14] It's hitting people, learning how to hit people with your gun.
[01:18:18] What we call a muzzle strike, which is, again, this is one of those things where, we kind
[01:18:25] of, like, would get be told that the, like, the muzzle strike would, would just kill people.
[01:18:30] Yeah, would kill people or it's going to definitely incapacitate me instantly and knock
[01:18:34] people out.
[01:18:35] And the fact of the matter is, and I know, I know, I know, lay for now, I have seen, I don't
[01:18:39] even know how many people, I've seen muzzle strikes over and over and over again.
[01:18:43] And it just, the, the amount, I don't even think I ever saw an actual knockout.
[01:18:47] I mean, you see some damage.
[01:18:48] It hurts and it cuts the person's face open.
[01:18:50] It makes him bleed everywhere and it's a complete nightmare and you're going to have
[01:18:52] to take him to medical and it's, it's just a bad thing.
[01:18:55] Whereas, somebody that knows a little bit of MMA can go and control these people and take
[01:18:59] them down and it's, it's, it's no factor.
[01:19:01] So that's what ended up taking over and it's definitely a good thing and a positive thing
[01:19:06] and it's been, it's been cool to talk to the guys that are now carrying on with the
[01:19:09] program.
[01:19:11] Next question.
[01:19:16] How do you deal with anger and flaired tempers in yourself or your team?
[01:19:24] Maybe if I'm going to go ahead and turn that one over to you.
[01:19:27] I got like experience with that one.
[01:19:30] Life's way more experienced than me.
[01:19:32] I've got a lot of experiences this one and I talked about being a direct guy, being a,
[01:19:40] a default aggressive guy and, and that's good.
[01:19:44] There's a lot of good in that.
[01:19:45] There's also some bad when you lose your temper, when you, you know, you lose your cool.
[01:19:49] One, you know, when you get emotional about things and react to stuff, you don't make
[01:19:52] good decisions.
[01:19:53] And so, you know, we always taught our guys that the most important quality they could have
[01:19:58] as a combat leader is to remain calm and make good decisions under chaos and pressure.
[01:20:04] So that doesn't happen when you lose your temper.
[01:20:07] So, you know, when I look back on that, the other thing about it too is when you do lose
[01:20:13] your temper about stuff and it's, I can give you a number of scenarios where it happened
[01:20:17] where, you know, if guys had, people always think like seals are always focused all the
[01:20:26] time.
[01:20:27] You know, and it's life and death for you guys out there.
[01:20:29] When we talk about businesses, they say that all the time, like it's life and death for
[01:20:32] you guys.
[01:20:33] You know, so it's not really life and death for my guys, but how do I get them to say
[01:20:35] focus?
[01:20:36] Guess what?
[01:20:38] People lose discipline, right?
[01:20:40] People lose discipline.
[01:20:41] If there's not leaders that are holding those standards and pushing hard and I remember one
[01:20:45] time in particular, we were a patrolling back to our combat outposts and we've been in a long
[01:20:49] operation.
[01:20:50] It was a phototro in to a dangerous area and we captured a bunch of prisoners and we had
[01:20:55] to walk them back on foot because there were so many IED threats in that area.
[01:21:01] I think we finally met up with some Bradley finding vehicles, a smaller tank from the army
[01:21:04] that came down.
[01:21:05] We loaded them up in that and they took them back from there.
[01:21:08] But so we're walking back a patrolling back and we're almost, you know, we're still
[01:21:13] a few hundred yards back away from this combat outpost, but we're an enemy territory.
[01:21:17] And I could see that some of the guys are starting to not be as focused, like looking
[01:21:22] down their weapons and dropping security in those things and I was infuriated by that.
[01:21:27] I was totally infuriated by that and it was because I knew what was at stake that look
[01:21:31] if we're not disciplined all the way back until we're inside that wire of the front
[01:21:36] of the combat outposts, we could take fire at any moment and if we're not watching, you
[01:21:40] know, at that very second we get shot at people might get guilt, you know, it decrees
[01:21:44] our probability of winning that firefight of bringing everybody back.
[01:21:47] So it was a big deal and but I definitely lost my cool when I came back.
[01:21:52] I was chewing it has and like fired up at people and like this is why this is important.
[01:21:57] And I look back on that out of like that's not the best way to do that, right?
[01:22:00] The best way to do that is to say, I mean, four skies to keep security, remind them
[01:22:07] to keep security certainly while it's happening but getting back and saying, guys, here's
[01:22:11] why we got to keep security.
[01:22:13] I know we're only a couple of yards from the combat outposts but recognize their enemy fighters
[01:22:17] out here and they're going to hit us when we least expect it.
[01:22:20] Just because it hasn't happened to us before, even though we've done this does the times,
[01:22:24] does not mean that it won't happen to us the next time and we can't, you know, this is
[01:22:29] important.
[01:22:30] Think about how you would feel if somebody got killed when you were supposed to be home
[01:22:33] security as they were crossing the street and you weren't paying attention.
[01:22:36] You know, it's an interesting use that example.
[01:22:38] I almost feel that you showing legit anger at that point as a positive thing.
[01:22:42] Like you want to make it perfectly clear to everybody and the way you get their attention
[01:22:47] because it's not like you lose your temper all the time is by, you know, getting angry
[01:22:52] and people go, oh, you know, he's, he doesn't lose the temper very often.
[01:22:56] Here he is super fired up.
[01:22:58] Well, I don't think it's tension.
[01:22:59] I don't think it's a problem.
[01:23:00] It's not a problem to get angry.
[01:23:01] I got really, really angry.
[01:23:03] Okay.
[01:23:04] So, it's one of those things where it would have been more effective for me to be stern
[01:23:09] and not back down from that in the least and not treat it lightly in the lead.
[01:23:14] I'm not saying that at all, but I think just to loot to yell and scream and those things,
[01:23:18] it's just never the best way to get right across.
[01:23:20] You're right.
[01:23:21] That is true.
[01:23:22] If you completely lose in your yelling and scream in, it's, it's not a good thing.
[01:23:26] Even though you're absolutely right, it was important and I wanted that address.
[01:23:30] It was like, it just wasn't the best way to do that.
[01:23:33] Looking back on that out.
[01:23:34] One time in particular too was, I can think when you wanted to make some changes to our
[01:23:40] operation.
[01:23:41] Oh yeah, that's right.
[01:23:42] That's right.
[01:23:43] I get really tired about the last podcast or not, but I was ready to cancel the
[01:23:49] op.
[01:23:50] Jockel came in and was like, what about this?
[01:23:53] You know, maybe, do we look at it from this direction?
[01:23:56] Why don't you guys maybe patrolling on this route and not go across this bridge where
[01:24:00] there's a choke point and they might bury ideas in the road and I was like, we've been
[01:24:04] looking this for hours.
[01:24:05] It's like, now he's changing it to the minute it's prior.
[01:24:07] Like, cancel the, and Jockel, he could have lost his cool with me because I just lost
[01:24:14] my cool.
[01:24:15] And you know, I've been, I've been, I've been hours at this and I was frustrated.
[01:24:18] I was ready to get to get this op launch and all the paperwork requirements and the levels
[01:24:22] of approvals that we need and running around trying to fix all these things and he actually
[01:24:28] just looked at me and was like,
[01:24:30] we don't need a cancel the op.
[01:24:32] It's fine.
[01:24:32] It's going to be fine.
[01:24:34] And then you actually get asked me some questions like, is what, does what I'm saying
[01:24:38] make sense?
[01:24:39] And I wanted to be like, no.
[01:24:40] I can't, you know, but it was like, yes, I, I totally, totally make sense.
[01:24:45] Yeah, totally make sense.
[01:24:46] You're like, okay, how long is it going to take to change it?
[01:24:48] You're like, I was like two minutes.
[01:24:50] Like, what we have eight minutes off.
[01:24:52] So no problem.
[01:24:53] Let's get it done.
[01:24:54] We don't need to cancel the operation.
[01:24:55] I was like, no, we don't.
[01:24:57] Yeah.
[01:24:58] Yeah.
[01:24:59] And like you said, it's important to maintain your, your cool and the way I do that
[01:25:08] is by being detached, talking about it all the time.
[01:25:11] And that's the two ways.
[01:25:12] When you got all fired up at me, I was like, like, okay, you know, like,
[01:25:16] life's getting fired up.
[01:25:17] And I didn't think, life's getting fired up because he's immature or because he's,
[01:25:22] doesn't can't control himself.
[01:25:23] I thought to myself, hey, you know what?
[01:25:24] He's been working on this all day.
[01:25:26] He's got a lot of pressure on him.
[01:25:28] There's a lot of frustration when you're doing these plans and doing all this paperwork.
[01:25:32] I understand where he's coming from.
[01:25:33] Let me give him some space, let him vent a little bit, and then let's re-approach this thing.
[01:25:37] That's how I'm coming at the situation.
[01:25:39] So how you handle it, though, is perfect because at you blown back up and it was just
[01:25:43] worse.
[01:25:44] So natural human reaction was right.
[01:25:45] Then I get mad.
[01:25:46] We're yelling each, even though we have a, we're a minister, cross relationship.
[01:25:50] We would have canceled the job.
[01:25:51] Yeah, it would have been a big deal.
[01:25:52] Or even if even if you end up saying, like, you know, as so many leaders would do, like,
[01:25:57] you're going to do it this way.
[01:25:58] And then I, I'm mad at you and I'm all pissed off.
[01:26:01] You, you know, you came in and Trump me.
[01:26:02] Oh, yeah, by the way, what happens when something goes wrong on the operation?
[01:26:05] And I'm like, joc-o-tool.
[01:26:07] You just do this.
[01:26:08] And then then you have the frictions, but the, the best thing that you did in that situation
[01:26:13] was you actually just smiled and laughed at him.
[01:26:15] Like, just take it.
[01:26:16] Well, I didn't like that.
[01:26:17] I think I just, just to make that clear, I didn't laugh at him.
[01:26:20] Like, he was a little, like, hey, man.
[01:26:23] You know what he knows me?
[01:26:24] And he knows exactly where I was coming from.
[01:26:26] Like, hey, I know it's, I know what's going on.
[01:26:28] It was the perfect way to deescalate the situation, which made me deescalate exactly.
[01:26:33] And made me realize like, yeah, it makes total sense.
[01:26:35] And then we execute it was no problem.
[01:26:36] Yeah.
[01:26:38] That's how you deal with.
[01:26:39] That's how you deal with.
[01:26:40] So when someone gets mad at you, deescalate when you feel yourself getting spun up,
[01:26:45] detach.
[01:26:46] When have you got spun up and lost your cool?
[01:26:49] I've said this before on the podcast.
[01:26:52] I've said it's a lot of different printers and copy machines.
[01:26:56] They don't like me.
[01:26:57] They don't like them.
[01:27:00] And so we talk in straight up office space, the office space style.
[01:27:03] I don't like, I don't like printers and copy machines.
[01:27:05] They don't ever do what I want them to do.
[01:27:08] And so I get angry at them.
[01:27:09] So I lose my mind a little bit.
[01:27:12] But no, I don't lose my temper very often.
[01:27:14] It doesn't do me a lot of good.
[01:27:16] And usually, it usually doesn't help the situation.
[01:27:20] It doesn't help you solve the problem.
[01:27:22] And my mind is always on, how do I get this thing solved?
[01:27:26] They never help you solve the problem.
[01:27:27] That's for sure.
[01:27:28] So if you're like me and you lose your cool, you've got to practice it.
[01:27:31] You've got to rehearse that.
[01:27:32] You've got to make sure that you're detaching and not losing your cool so that you can get
[01:27:37] the job done and win.
[01:27:38] That's what it's all about.
[01:27:40] And the Delta Ptoon Commander, he would go in a little bit of rage from time to time.
[01:27:45] And one day, the Delta Ptoon Commander is going to be out of the military and he's
[01:27:51] coming right on this podcast and he knows that he's fired up.
[01:27:54] But he's my other brother.
[01:27:58] And that's going to be a good time.
[01:28:00] But he would get some rage going.
[01:28:03] And I'd have to back him down a little bit and say, bro, let's me.
[01:28:09] And it'll raise to get fired up right out.
[01:28:12] And we're here to win and I'm here to help you.
[01:28:16] And he'd go, I know, but damn.
[01:28:19] Awesome.
[01:28:21] All right.
[01:28:24] Next one, and this is a pretty heavy subject, actually.
[01:28:29] Jocconwave, thoughts on cops being ambushed.
[01:28:34] What should police departments do be doing to prepare, especially with no command support
[01:28:40] for training?
[01:28:42] The crisis is an American law enforcement role in battling this terrorism.
[01:28:47] We have been training active shooter lots.
[01:28:49] These are, this is actually a conglomeration of a few questions.
[01:28:52] But the basic question is thoughts on the cops being ambushed.
[01:28:57] What should police departments be doing to train for that prepare for it?
[01:29:02] And then how do civilians fended at that picture?
[01:29:06] And what can civilians do to help?
[01:29:10] If the horrible shooting that took place in Texas.
[01:29:14] Terrific stuff.
[01:29:16] And certainly we lift up families of those laws and our prayers and the entire police force
[01:29:22] there in Dallas, in Baton Rouge, and across the country where they've lost their brothers.
[01:29:29] I think, first of all, we have tremendous respect for law enforcement for the boys and
[01:29:35] the police, police departments, sheriff's deputies, federal law enforcement.
[01:29:41] They protect the home front.
[01:29:43] And we have to have that.
[01:29:44] We have to have that.
[01:29:45] We have to have, we have to be a nation of laws.
[01:29:48] And without that, we've got complete lawlessness.
[01:29:51] And so I think America needs to show appreciation for their police departments and for
[01:29:59] their law enforcement officers.
[01:30:01] We can't do that enough.
[01:30:03] We gotta think those folks.
[01:30:04] I think as far as, this is just another example.
[01:30:09] When you're talking about the police ambush, this is another example that just as we talked
[01:30:13] about that first question, darkness, the evil that's in the world.
[01:30:17] There are some evil people that celebrate this evil.
[01:30:20] Like it's a great thing.
[01:30:22] And I think there's just no justification for the kind of horrific stuff that we've seen.
[01:30:29] These ambushes on police officers.
[01:30:32] So I think police need to start, you're already seeing the yard, you see a police police
[01:30:37] that are getting, they're getting long guns.
[01:30:40] For the forces that didn't have them a lot of them, but maybe they didn't have access to
[01:30:42] them or couldn't get to them quickly.
[01:30:44] They're going to need to have those long guns.
[01:30:46] Where if someone's targeting you with a rifle and all you have is a pistol, it's not good
[01:30:50] for you.
[01:30:51] That's interesting.
[01:30:52] For those of you that don't know anything about guns like Echo, the difference between
[01:30:55] you having a rifle and a pistol is night and day.
[01:31:00] I mean, let's just break it down a pistol.
[01:31:03] If you're a good shot with a pistol, maybe if you're a great shot with a pistol, maybe
[01:31:07] you're getting out what 50 yards.
[01:31:11] You're a good shot with a rifle and you're out to 800 yards.
[01:31:15] Pretty easily.
[01:31:17] Now on top of that, you've got a pistol, you can a pistol round will stop when it hits
[01:31:22] something, you know, sometimes pistol round stop when they hit regular windows on cars.
[01:31:27] A high power rifle is going to rip through the doors of cars, no problem.
[01:31:31] It's going to be.
[01:31:32] There is a massive, massive difference between being out in the street with a pistol and
[01:31:38] being out in the street with a rifle.
[01:31:41] Luckily, they're, well, not luckily, but they are starting to arm the police for these
[01:31:45] scenarios that you're going to get in.
[01:31:47] I remember the first time, first patrol I went on in Iraq, in Humvees, and we hit, we
[01:31:54] hit a steel hedgehog, right?
[01:31:58] The little obstacles that Americans put out, I don't know if they left them there, I've
[01:32:01] been from some problem.
[01:32:02] So I'm driving along all of a sudden boom, we hit one, it was my vehicle.
[01:32:05] I thought to myself, I just hit an idea about the die.
[01:32:08] But our vehicle gets jacked up, we're like, propped up and everyone poured out in the street
[01:32:13] and took up security.
[01:32:15] But everyone's out there with a little M4s.
[01:32:18] And you feel, even, you know, because we want to machine guns.
[01:32:22] We never went out again without, you know, to heavy machine guns per Humvee, because
[01:32:27] we wanted to be ready to rock and roll.
[01:32:30] So that's the same feeling you're going to get rolling out with just a pistol.
[01:32:34] So that's number one.
[01:32:35] Number two, the police departments, they got to start looking at tactics, at urban combat
[01:32:42] tactics and how to handle these situations, how to cover and move primarily, how to cover
[01:32:47] and move.
[01:32:48] It always is shocking to me when I see people not using these cover.
[01:32:56] When there's gun fight or potential gun fight or even if there's not, that's one thing
[01:33:01] in Ramadi like when you're walking down the street in Ramadi, you don't walk down street,
[01:33:04] you're moving from cover to cover.
[01:33:05] And if you're a police officer, let's at least be near cover.
[01:33:08] So if shooting starts, you can get in cover.
[01:33:11] When I see a rest happening, actual rest happening, they're trying to get someone to stop
[01:33:16] and the police officers are standing out in the open to try and tell someone to stop.
[01:33:20] Don't stand out in the open, stand behind cover.
[01:33:23] Now there's a complexity there because you want the person that you're trying to stop
[01:33:28] to be able to clearly identify that you're a police officer, right?
[01:33:31] But let's make the error on the side of being behind cover.
[01:33:35] So if that person does draw gun, you can be able to react them from a place to cover.
[01:33:40] Because if you're the difference between standing behind cover and standing out in the open,
[01:33:44] if someone starts shooting at you, oh, if you've got cover, you're good to go.
[01:33:47] That's literally you're good to go.
[01:33:48] They have to do, they have to hit a tiny, tiny little target of whatever's exposed to,
[01:33:52] you know, part of your head.
[01:33:54] Whereas if you're standing in the open, they're gonna hit you.
[01:33:57] So I think those tactics need to start looking at the individual tactics of doing a rest.
[01:34:03] And then they need to start looking at the larger group tactics when you have either one,
[01:34:08] you know, you got your partner out there, how do you operate together, how do you cover,
[01:34:11] move together, what's the best way to react to these scenarios?
[01:34:15] And then furthermore, when another group, when other police show up,
[01:34:20] how do you then quickly organize into elements that can operate together,
[01:34:24] like a military unit, and I know that's gonna make some people scared.
[01:34:27] But like that's that they shouldn't be scared of that.
[01:34:30] When you're in a gunfight, you need to use tactics,
[01:34:33] gunfighting tactics, and those come from the military.
[01:34:36] So they should be able to operate in pairs, they should be able to operate in elements,
[01:34:39] and grow into you get to a point where you can handle these situations.
[01:34:43] And that's gonna take a lot of training, and that's gonna take money,
[01:34:47] and that's gonna cost, and I was talking to some of my friends and our police officers.
[01:34:51] And I'm not a fact one guy just met really, really good guy, really fired up,
[01:34:55] due to a two-player, of course.
[01:34:56] And he said the amount of training that they get is very, very minimal.
[01:35:02] So for example, a regular police officer, they actually don't,
[01:35:07] oftentimes they don't have designated times for training.
[01:35:11] They don't have times to say, okay, you're gonna work 40 hours this week,
[01:35:16] four of those hours are going to be training, and that's completely wrong.
[01:35:21] You should have mandatory real good training,
[01:35:27] four-soned force training, and that's what Lave talked about earlier, where you're shooting live,
[01:35:31] or simulation rounds, or paint ball rounds to each other.
[01:35:34] So you're getting used to those stressful situations.
[01:35:36] So because I'll tell you what, you square off of the guy, you square off of the guy one time,
[01:35:40] and he's got simulation, and you stand out in the open, and don't get covered,
[01:35:43] and he pulls out that gun and shoot you three times in the face with the simulation.
[01:35:47] And then the next time you go again, you're gonna be having some cover.
[01:35:49] It's gonna happen.
[01:35:50] And so, and that's what we want people to do.
[01:35:53] You know what's interesting about that is, you know,
[01:35:55] we, there was a real emphasis on Lave fire when I first came into the seal teams,
[01:36:00] and a lot of the instructors that were putting us through training had not had any real experience.
[01:36:04] I didn't even real combat experience.
[01:36:06] And so, we still had those folks that were saying,
[01:36:09] well, we're gonna focus on Lave fire, because that's more important, and that's better training.
[01:36:12] And the reality is, it's not.
[01:36:14] It's actually worse training, because you're dealing with paper targets.
[01:36:17] And it's simple.
[01:36:18] It's like, either there are, there's a weapon in their hand, or there are not.
[01:36:21] Shoot them, don't shoot them, did you hit the target, did you not?
[01:36:24] So, while it's important to be able to operate with Lave fire, and that's great,
[01:36:28] so much better to operate against a role player.
[01:36:31] Now you go into a room, you're like, the guy's moving.
[01:36:33] You can't see, you know, he's shooting, he's not shooting it.
[01:36:36] Maybe he is alarmed, but if he's bum rushing you, and for us, if a guy's yelling a
[01:36:44] lock bar and running at you, he's probably a high suicide bomber threat.
[01:36:49] So he's getting smoke, so he's getting smoke too.
[01:36:51] So, I think police forces have absolutely got to make time for training, but they got to put
[01:36:58] those realistic scenarios in there too.
[01:36:59] And, you know, our police officers are in, and as Jaco said, we've got many, many friends
[01:37:03] are in law enforcement, some of them form a seal that we work with, they've gone that
[01:37:08] round now.
[01:37:09] And they're in very difficult scenarios all the time.
[01:37:12] It's one of the hard things about a close-quarters combat is, our instructor's always
[01:37:16] tells us, like, don't game it, don't game it, meaning.
[01:37:18] And I talked about with a killhouse, how you can change the walls and maneuver around.
[01:37:23] When you're thinking in your mind, I know what I'm going to see when I enter this room.
[01:37:29] That's what you generally see.
[01:37:31] And so, it's a difficult thing.
[01:37:33] You've got to make it easy to get really amped up.
[01:37:36] Your heart rates going and you're like, like, you know, you know, because there's pressure on
[01:37:39] you got instructors there and you want to make sure you make your shots and make good decisions.
[01:37:42] And particularly as a new guy, when you have a done that before and you're going to over the
[01:37:45] first time.
[01:37:47] And so, if you're game in it and you're already envisioning what you're going to see,
[01:37:52] that's how you react to it.
[01:37:53] And I remember I shot a target and the stars are like, bad, look at that target.
[01:37:59] There's no, it's, there's nothing in the guy's hand.
[01:38:01] There's no, I, I, I thought I saw a weapon in the target and I saw a hammer the target,
[01:38:07] you know, with rounds.
[01:38:08] And I'm looking at the holes in the, you know, the chest, the vaporized hotel.
[01:38:13] Did you engage hostels?
[01:38:15] I vaporized hostels.
[01:38:16] I think we'll have to move in Navy SEALs.
[01:38:19] But that's, that kind of thing can really get to you.
[01:38:21] So, and only, you only learn that when you, you only realize how easily that can happen,
[01:38:27] when it happens to you in training and when they change those things around so that you go
[01:38:31] in there and it's a, the hallways different and you're moving a different direction and
[01:38:34] the, there's, you know, it causes those kinds of issues.
[01:38:37] So, what, what you're talking about is you want to train for the unexpected.
[01:38:43] That's what you want to have happen.
[01:38:44] And the things that you see in combat are crazy, the things that cops deal with, go watch
[01:38:49] YouTube.
[01:38:50] I said this last time we talked about this subject, go watch YouTube and watch see the crazy
[01:38:53] things that people do out in the world.
[01:38:56] And you got to be prepared for all those things and how do you prepare?
[01:38:58] You got to learn to think, you got to learn to think quickly.
[01:39:01] I was talking to one of our guys from Task Media Brewster the other day and it's, I'm
[01:39:07] not going to say his name obviously, but he's one of one of my favorite guys who did that
[01:39:12] deployment with us came back and I think it was either his next deployment of the deployment
[01:39:16] after went to Afghanistan and did a lot of incredible stuff in Afghanistan and again,
[01:39:23] I put him through training for that.
[01:39:24] So I was running training and he was just a great guy stepped up and I said, hey man,
[01:39:31] what was the, because I didn't fight in Afghanistan.
[01:39:32] I said, what was, what was the difference between what, you know, you're deployment to Afghanistan
[01:39:36] where you got a bunch of gun fights and got after it compared to what it was like in
[01:39:40] Romadi.
[01:39:41] And he said, you know, the biggest difference was in Afghanistan when things are happening,
[01:39:47] they're, they're usually at a distance.
[01:39:50] You know, you're in, you're looking at across a valley, you're looking down a ridge line,
[01:39:54] you're looking, you know, you're, you can observe and you can got some time to think
[01:39:58] and you can get some cover and think, okay, I think this is where they are.
[01:40:00] Let me take another look.
[01:40:01] You can pop your head out.
[01:40:02] You can assess and he just looked at me and he said, in Romadi, you had to make a decision.
[01:40:09] Now, and I started laughing because that, you know, you don't, there's no distance.
[01:40:15] The person is across the street.
[01:40:16] The person is two buildings away and you as a leader or even not as a leader, as a shooter.
[01:40:21] You got to make a decision right now.
[01:40:22] As a matter of fact, the leader's not going to tell you what to do.
[01:40:25] You can engage across the street.
[01:40:26] You're, you're not going to wait for the leader to tell you what to do.
[01:40:28] You got to know what to do.
[01:40:29] You got to act and, and that intensity of urban combat combat and again, this is like
[01:40:35] when we talk about the Cheshire war and what those guys, that's what was so stressful and
[01:40:39] those lessons learned, what they said, hey, and the urban combat environment, these guys need
[01:40:42] to be cycled out of the urban combat environment because the ID threat, because the sniper threat,
[01:40:47] because the immense pressure of having to make decisions now, they should be cycled out like
[01:40:50] I think it was at the two months and here we were, I'm putting you guys out in the field
[01:40:53] for six straight months and two in urban combat, apologize, life, apologize, I love you.
[01:40:58] Bruges are guys damn hard.
[01:41:00] We loved it.
[01:41:01] But so, so that, and that's go back and that's what these cops are dealing with.
[01:41:06] That's these police officers dealing with is they got to get practice and rehearse,
[01:41:10] making these decisions now because that's what they have to do.
[01:41:13] So now what can you do to buy yourself an extra quarter second and extra half a second?
[01:41:18] Well, don't stand out in the open, create some distance, why are you approaching the person
[01:41:21] to ask yourself why?
[01:41:22] Well, I mean, if, where's this guy?
[01:41:24] He's going to run for me if he's runs or what's going to happen?
[01:41:26] Is he going to come over threat, less of a threat, so you can, you can make those decisions.
[01:41:30] Another piece of this, citizens of America.
[01:41:36] I think we actually need to teach in high school, in ninth grade freshman classes, I think
[01:41:41] there needs to be a class called how to get arrested by the police and they tell you
[01:41:46] what you should do when you get pulled over by the police or you get told to get down by
[01:41:51] the police or you get told to get away from the wall by the police.
[01:41:54] You know what you do?
[01:41:56] You do it.
[01:41:57] You do it.
[01:41:58] That's what you do.
[01:41:59] You show them your hands.
[01:42:00] You get your hands out of your pockets, you put your hands in the air and you know what?
[01:42:04] Part of that class should be is the students that are going through the class get to be
[01:42:09] the cop and get to use simulation, get to feel what it's like to know, to not know,
[01:42:15] actually.
[01:42:16] So when you pull this guy over, is he, what's he going to do to you?
[01:42:20] And I watched a video the other day that did a great job.
[01:42:23] Somebody suckered me in on the internet on YouTube.
[01:42:25] It was, um, watch another horrible police brutality.
[01:42:30] He's like some kind of title like that.
[01:42:32] And I'm watching it and this guy, that's in the car.
[01:42:36] So it's a traffic stop and the guy that's in the cars is being totally compliant.
[01:42:41] And I'm like, oh, God, I can't believe this cop is going to do anything to this guy.
[01:42:44] Look at this guy. He's getting his license like he was asked to.
[01:42:47] I'm like, I could barely watch because it's like another shooting.
[01:42:50] That was the title.
[01:42:51] Another shooting, another death.
[01:42:53] And because I always think those things are horrible to watch.
[01:42:56] So watch it away for this cop just to pull out his gun or see a quick movement and
[01:43:00] pull out his gun and shoot the guy.
[01:43:01] And the guy's just being compliant and nice and reaches in to grab something,
[01:43:07] grab his wallet or whatever pulls out a gun and shoots it, got shots, the cop,
[01:43:10] got shoots, the cop, us out of car runs.
[01:43:12] Totally caught me by surprise.
[01:43:15] So when you are getting arrested and we need to educate the citizens of America on how to get arrested.
[01:43:24] And I think that would be very helpful.
[01:43:27] Instead of protesting the cops for shooting people, they should say, okay, what can we do?
[01:43:34] Which takes ownership of this?
[01:43:36] What can we do is citizens to do a better job of getting arrested?
[01:43:40] You know, be compliant, show your hands.
[01:43:43] That is, and again, I think it's important to understand the pressure that police are
[01:43:49] under.
[01:43:50] And hey, just so everybody knows some of those videos that I watch, I know for it's horrible
[01:43:56] and the police are to have taken shots that have made me, made my stomach turn because
[01:44:01] they've been a nightmare.
[01:44:02] Although I already described one of these on the podcast, but that one where I saw the guy
[01:44:06] with the headphones on and a hoodie on couldn't hear what the cop was saying reached into
[01:44:10] his pocket to turn off his iPhone and the cop drilled them.
[01:44:13] You know, where was the cop standing?
[01:44:15] He was standing out and the wide open.
[01:44:18] And then wide open of a 7-11 parking lot.
[01:44:20] So he has no cover, no concealment.
[01:44:22] He's yelling at this guy.
[01:44:23] The guy turns around, wants to shut off his iPhone.
[01:44:25] Where he's listening to music so he can hear what the cop was saying.
[01:44:28] Cop drills him.
[01:44:29] And the call was, you know, guy with a gun.
[01:44:31] So I understand the anger at police when police make bad shots.
[01:44:39] But let's figure out, let's let's let's let's we just talked about this.
[01:44:43] Let's not be temperamental about it.
[01:44:45] Let's not use rage.
[01:44:47] Let's that's not going to solve the problem.
[01:44:49] What is going to solve the problem is take a step back.
[01:44:51] Let's analyze what we can do as citizens to deescalate all these situations.
[01:44:55] I mean, that's a good idea right there about let the, you know, in your high school,
[01:45:02] your example's high school, but let the citizen know how it feels to be the cop.
[01:45:07] Because really, that's all you see.
[01:45:08] Because the cop has all this power, you know, and all this stuff.
[01:45:11] But they don't know.
[01:45:12] I think when they see that kind of stuff, they don't know because because of the emotions
[01:45:16] that get invoked when they see it.
[01:45:18] So if they understand, that's like a two-way street to facilitate that learning process.
[01:45:24] So when you, so let's say that was a common thing.
[01:45:28] That was one of like a normal thing, one of the normal things.
[01:45:31] We're always a common thing.
[01:45:32] For it, to people who go through this training, and that was just kind of part of our culture,
[01:45:36] you know, where as a citizen, we know we're well aware of what cops go through and all
[01:45:41] this stuff because we've been through it and we understand.
[01:45:43] We just totally understand that would make the whole landscape of cop versus, or cops working
[01:45:50] alongside with citizens, you would stick out like a sore thumb when someone was suspicious.
[01:45:54] Other ways people would be just, yeah, I know exactly what to do with black clockwork routine.
[01:45:59] And myself, I've done vehicle introduction over in Iraq, and I know what it's like to walk up those cars
[01:46:05] and see what those people are looking like.
[01:46:07] And so when I get pulled over by the cops, which hasn't happened to me a lot, but you know,
[01:46:10] speed, I've gotten busted for speeding.
[01:46:12] I'm sorry, since it's a forgettable.
[01:46:14] But you know, I've got pulled over.
[01:46:15] I'm, you know, totally.
[01:46:16] Totally.
[01:46:17] Disappointing goes for it.
[01:46:18] Yeah.
[01:46:19] Totally.
[01:46:19] Which just just hands very slow movements.
[01:46:22] I don't, you know, I want to make their job as easy as possible.
[01:46:25] As easy as possible, because I know they're stressed, you know, hey, officer, how you doing?
[01:46:30] Sorry, it's going a little fast.
[01:46:32] You know, what do you want from me?
[01:46:33] Yeah, I'm here to comply.
[01:46:35] On that note, too.
[01:46:36] I mean, of course, they're going to be, they're going to be police.
[01:46:39] They don't make good decisions and maybe go over the top or maybe they're, you know,
[01:46:43] they lost their cool for some other issue or they, or they get a call.
[01:46:47] I mean, often, and this was kind of where I was going.
[01:46:49] I was talking about this earlier was if they get a call, like I saw an armed guy or you
[01:46:53] fit the description of someone you're looking for, they're already seeing use of threat.
[01:46:56] So having that, you know, if you feel like you're not getting, and believe me, this is,
[01:47:01] this is always the kind of myth in our culture as well.
[01:47:04] I'm about as a white boy as you can get as, you know, a blonde headed, a pale skin guy.
[01:47:11] I've been mistreated by the police.
[01:47:12] That's for sure.
[01:47:13] And when that was happening, when I got shelved on the ground, a little short real shotgun
[01:47:19] jammed into my skull, even when I was being compliant, I didn't lose my cool because what
[01:47:25] is that game me?
[01:47:26] I'm not going to resist to rest.
[01:47:27] I'm just going to, I'm going to, I got to suck that up.
[01:47:31] Then I can, you know, if you want to, I'm going to complain about my rights later, I can
[01:47:34] do that.
[01:47:35] You know, I was being a knucklehead as a young guy back in the day, but, and I probably
[01:47:42] deserve to be roughed up.
[01:47:43] But if it's, it was one of those things where like, then now it's not that time to complain
[01:47:46] about it.
[01:47:47] You cooperate with the police, and you want to file a complaint later, you can do that.
[01:47:51] Yes.
[01:47:52] Yeah, and that typically ends up to be, well, I mean, I guess, you know, it's debatable,
[01:47:56] I guess, but that typically becomes the best discourse because at the time, if a copper
[01:48:02] whoever, whoever, you see a balancer, so it's on a way lower level, it's kind of the same
[01:48:07] thing.
[01:48:08] I remember those days ago, I think you had to bounce me out of the bar a few times.
[01:48:12] Yeah, probably.
[01:48:14] But if, if you start taking it right then and there where, you know, you're losing a temper
[01:48:22] or something like that, making the job difficult, like just like you said, like, that's
[01:48:26] not going to, you're not going to recapture your rights at that time.
[01:48:30] Like if you think your rights are being violated, you're not going to, you're not going
[01:48:34] to get your rights back at that time.
[01:48:36] The ones that are being violated.
[01:48:37] Let me say some worse than that.
[01:48:38] You have a rookie cop that doesn't know what he's doing that well and he, for whatever
[01:48:43] reason, decides he's going to take that shock on off safe or he decides he's going to
[01:48:47] put the finger on the trigger and now you start jerking around and moving and all of a sudden
[01:48:51] you got an accidental discharge into your head.
[01:48:53] So that's not real beneficial.
[01:48:57] Right.
[01:48:58] But even before before it gets to that, it think about just the person who's going to make
[01:49:02] the decision to either resist or put up a fight about their rights or, you know, or this
[01:49:07] officer being a power trip, having a power trip or whatever, just think about that person's
[01:49:11] decision making.
[01:49:12] Right.
[01:49:13] Rather, as opposed to, we're going to let this happen.
[01:49:15] I'm going to cooperate fully, regardless of your power trip, regardless of the rights
[01:49:18] that you violated or whatever.
[01:49:19] And then if I believe that my rights are violated to pursue it later, like you're saying,
[01:49:24] because if you choose to pursue it right then and there, it's not going to work out.
[01:49:27] And you actually now, I'm sitting here thinking about this, it doesn't need to be like
[01:49:31] a high school education thing.
[01:49:32] It'd have to be great.
[01:49:33] But like, what could we do in the media, the government, the police should get together
[01:49:38] and start making videos of saying, hey, here's what's going on.
[01:49:41] Here's what the cops feel and here's what the cops think and watch this live.
[01:49:44] You know, there's plenty of body cams.
[01:49:45] Now you can say, here's what the cops think.
[01:49:46] And here's what, like, they just had a shooting of a white guy up in Northern California
[01:49:51] a little bit ago.
[01:49:53] And he, you know, they showed him reaching for his reaching behind him after he's being
[01:49:58] combative and walking towards people. So it would be cool to just freeze that frame and say,
[01:50:03] this is what a police officer is thinking right now when you're doing this.
[01:50:07] He's thinking, does this guy have a gun?
[01:50:09] Here's the report that I got.
[01:50:11] Here's the situation I'm in.
[01:50:13] Well, think about what you're doing and do the right thing.
[01:50:18] If you're getting told to get down, get down.
[01:50:20] If you're getting told to show your hands, show your hands.
[01:50:23] And I think we got to start educating.
[01:50:25] We're going to start training, art police better. They deserve it.
[01:50:28] We owe that to them so that they know how to work as an individual to use cover, as
[01:50:33] pairs to use cover move, as elements to use cover move.
[01:50:36] And then we need to put them in the stressful realistic environments that are changing
[01:50:40] all the time that they've lived to learn how to think now.
[01:50:43] And then on the civilian side, our civilians need to be educated as well on how to get
[01:50:50] arrested, how to comply.
[01:50:53] What it feels like to be on the other side.
[01:50:55] Yeah.
[01:50:56] And like I said, I think that does create this overall understanding of the process.
[01:51:04] Like remember, you should be a bouncer.
[01:51:07] And it's like check IDs, right?
[01:51:09] Check IDs.
[01:51:10] And when someone has a fake ID, usually you can tell in their behavior.
[01:51:15] And I'm not saying I can tell a guy's under my nature, whatever.
[01:51:17] If they're behavior, I'm not saying that.
[01:51:19] But if there's some suspicion or whatever, his behavior is going to tell more of the tale.
[01:51:24] But there is this kind of standard operating kind of way, when you present your ID, show
[01:51:30] your ID, you be quiet and you just kind of stand there so they can look at your face,
[01:51:34] the bouncer.
[01:51:35] I'm just saying that's what typically what people do automatically.
[01:51:37] But when people do other things, it sticks up.
[01:51:40] So like I said, I think how you're saying, if there is this understanding, I know how
[01:51:45] it is to be the cop, I know how to get arrested.
[01:51:48] They'll do that.
[01:51:49] No create this pattern like I said, where when they are acting suspicious, it won't
[01:51:54] be he was just kind of generally suspicious.
[01:51:56] It'll stick out way more.
[01:51:57] Exactly.
[01:51:58] It's a good idea, man.
[01:52:00] I don't think I've heard that before.
[01:52:04] Life.
[01:52:05] Next question.
[01:52:06] Metallica or Pantera.
[01:52:10] This is open up a big ganty worms because we used to have quite a big debate about this
[01:52:15] and tube ruser.
[01:52:18] Back in the day, and Jaco gave me a hard time because I grew up in the Metallica black
[01:52:24] album there, which Jaco didn't even consider real Metallica.
[01:52:30] It was going to old school, ride the lightning kill him all.
[01:52:35] But yeah, for me it was funny.
[01:52:37] I see the thing about Vietnam, the Vietnam War and these guys are going to the Vietnam
[01:52:41] War and they're listening to.
[01:52:45] And then, cross-be stills a Nash.
[01:52:51] They're listening to the grateful dead.
[01:52:53] I mean, a large portion of population was.
[01:52:56] We're going to war listening to Metallica kill him all.
[01:53:01] It's a little mindset, Shedd.
[01:53:02] That's pretty good.
[01:53:03] I got to say though, I think Pantera crush is Metallica and I got to say that Cowboys
[01:53:10] from hell is probably the greatest rock song of all time.
[01:53:16] I actually really like the early Metallica and then I thought the Pantera got better after
[01:53:25] that album and moved towards Volga to play.
[01:53:27] Volga to play a part of it.
[01:53:28] When they stepped up and went harder, hold your mouth to war as opposed to Metallica who
[01:53:33] got softer.
[01:53:34] So big and both.
[01:53:37] And when I got to Seal Team 1, there was a big stereo system in the gym and it had a glass
[01:53:44] case in front of it and they'd weld it like a rod into the case where you couldn't open
[01:53:48] it.
[01:53:49] You couldn't open the case and it was locked shut in the first five.
[01:53:54] You remember the old days?
[01:53:55] They had the CD disc changes.
[01:53:57] There was, you know, this was a five disc CD changer.
[01:54:01] The first five Metallica albums were in there and they could not be removed.
[01:54:04] And that, if you went in the gym, that's where you're listening to back in the day,
[01:54:07] T1 style.
[01:54:08] Good done.
[01:54:10] All right.
[01:54:13] I'd like to hear what you both think regarding the deaths of Buds trainees in the past few
[01:54:18] months.
[01:54:22] Yeah, look, this is something that's been all over the news.
[01:54:25] Our Buds is basic underwater demolition seal training and that is, that is the basic seal
[01:54:30] training program.
[01:54:31] That's the pipeline that we all go through that, that we graduate from.
[01:54:36] It's about a 27 week program or so.
[01:54:39] It's got a 70, 80% of Trisha and Raid.
[01:54:41] It's why they consider some of the toughest military training in the world.
[01:54:44] It's tough training and it needs to be tough training because we expect seals to be able
[01:54:49] perform in a very high level on very dangerous battlefields across the globe and a lot
[01:54:54] of highly dynamic and high pressure situations.
[01:54:57] So we got to keep those standard tie.
[01:55:01] One thing that's misleading is there was, they're saying, well, three deaths happened
[01:55:06] in a short period of time.
[01:55:08] If you want's back at Buds and that's actually not true.
[01:55:12] It wasn't two of those, two of the three deaths actually didn't happen in training.
[01:55:16] And so people need to understand that.
[01:55:19] So what were the three deaths?
[01:55:20] So there was a one, one death actually happened in training.
[01:55:26] There was a death of a student that drowned in the pool, walk on to an evolution and the
[01:55:31] instructors were there.
[01:55:33] They tried to resuscitate him, got him in the hospital, but they couldn't bring him back.
[01:55:36] He was going.
[01:55:37] So that is a training death.
[01:55:39] That's the one training death.
[01:55:41] The two others that happened was a student that quit training, dropped, he dropped on requests
[01:55:47] as we call it, which is again, most of the students that go there, this ends up happening
[01:55:51] head, and dressed most people quit.
[01:55:55] That the 78% of nutrition rate means most of those folks are walking away.
[01:55:59] So they're ringing the bell and dropping on requests, which is, you know, quit the program.
[01:56:05] So a horrible situation, but this individual, the student, apparently that was waiting
[01:56:11] heavily on him that he quit his dream, he got a buzz.
[01:56:15] And on Liberty, meaning he quit, and then he went out, wasn't under supervision anymore,
[01:56:23] went into downtown San Diego, went to a hotel, jumped off the 22nd floor, killed himself,
[01:56:29] which is horrible, which is horrible.
[01:56:31] But that was not a training death.
[01:56:33] Even though he was attached to the community at the time, and there's certainly I'm sure
[01:56:36] they're taking some substantial steps to maybe try to monitor guys a little bit more.
[01:56:41] You can't put, you can't, while horrible and tragic, and they're going to try to do everything
[01:56:47] you can to prevent that.
[01:56:48] You can't put guys in jail for six weeks after they quit.
[01:56:52] I mean, you can't be with him 24, seven.
[01:56:54] So I think it's hard to hold the center responsible, our training center responsible for that
[01:56:59] death.
[01:57:00] And the other one that happened was another guy who had quit training, a student who had quit
[01:57:04] training while on Liberty got drunk and crashed his car.
[01:57:09] It was killed in a fucking rest.
[01:57:10] It was a car.
[01:57:11] I think it was a car.
[01:57:12] Yeah, well, you know what, I think you just kind of explained these things.
[01:57:17] You know, one of his training death training deaths shouldn't happen.
[01:57:22] That's horrible when it happens.
[01:57:23] A lot of times there's been other drownings in the past.
[01:57:26] Oftentimes there's some kind of a, some kind of a medical issue that the person had.
[01:57:30] I don't know what the results of this guy's autopsy are.
[01:57:34] But the guy that killed himself, this was one thing that I found interesting.
[01:57:37] I was talking to one of the guys, one of my buddies that works over there still.
[01:57:42] And I saw picture the guy that killed himself.
[01:57:44] And dude, look like a stud, you know.
[01:57:47] He had a couple pictures of him.
[01:57:53] He almost looked like a professional photography of a guy.
[01:57:55] He was like a rugby player and he was kind of, just look like a stud.
[01:58:01] And I mentioned this to my buddy.
[01:58:03] That's an instructor over there said, hey man, that guy looked like a stud.
[01:58:05] What's going on?
[01:58:06] And my buddy said, hey, Jocco, they're all studs.
[01:58:12] So when I went through training, no one knew about the seal teams.
[01:58:15] It wasn't this big giant, you know, we didn't have this huge publicity that we have now.
[01:58:21] And so if you want to go to the seal teams, you kind of had to search it out.
[01:58:23] It wasn't just going to, the seal teams weren't going to just land on your doorstep.
[01:58:28] You had to figure it out and go for it.
[01:58:29] And so there was, there wasn't a lot of, there was all kinds of knuckleheads going through
[01:58:33] training.
[01:58:35] And he said, he said, when you look down the line and you look at, when you talk to these
[01:58:38] kids, they're the captain of the team.
[01:58:41] They're the class president of the high school.
[01:58:43] They're, they're studs.
[01:58:45] And so it's no, it's no different with this kid.
[01:58:47] The kid was a stud.
[01:58:49] And I think, and actually in reading some of the articles about him, he, this was his
[01:58:55] life long dream.
[01:58:56] He had told everybody, I'm going to be a seal.
[01:58:58] I'm going to be a seal.
[01:58:59] I'm going to be a seal.
[01:59:00] And I think he quit on Wednesday.
[01:59:02] I want to say a win.
[01:59:03] I don't know.
[01:59:04] I don't know when he quit.
[01:59:05] But he quit in how weak.
[01:59:07] And since he told everybody that's what he's going to do, you know, that was the stress
[01:59:11] was too much to bear to go back to everybody and say, yeah, I didn't make it.
[01:59:15] So I just want to be clear.
[01:59:17] I mean, these are horrible.
[01:59:18] It's horrible.
[01:59:19] Absolutely.
[01:59:20] Young, you know, good young men who aspire to be seals and whether they're killed
[01:59:23] in them auto-axonate, you know, drinking a drive or not or, you know, a suicide.
[01:59:28] This is horrible.
[01:59:29] And we want to try to prevent that.
[01:59:30] I'm sure I know that our training center is doing everything they can to try to prevent
[01:59:34] that.
[01:59:35] But again, you can't lock these guys up.
[01:59:37] You can't be at some point.
[01:59:39] They have to be released to be on liberty.
[01:59:41] They, we can't be with them 24, 7.
[01:59:43] So, you know, you can counsel guys, you can talk to folks.
[01:59:46] And what's the shame about, you know, the, the, the, the suicide is, I mean, some of
[01:59:50] of the best guys we serve with guys like Mark Lee and Mike Montzure both had quit
[01:59:57] boats, rang out.
[01:59:58] Got some maturity, went to the fleet, you know, worked hard to get ready and come
[02:00:02] back, came back, knocked that training out of the park and we're out of stands team
[02:00:06] guys.
[02:00:07] So that's just, that's a horrible tragedy, definitely.
[02:00:10] But I think what's important for people to understand is, you know, for the actual training
[02:00:14] death, this stuff is there's a lot of protocols in place.
[02:00:18] It's very, it's very, when I was an instructor there.
[02:00:20] They're exuberant.
[02:00:21] They're exuberant.
[02:00:22] Yeah, so I don't know, life wasn't instructor at but I was never an instructor at
[02:00:25] but it's, but life worked there.
[02:00:26] You worked hell weeks.
[02:00:28] I did.
[02:00:29] And so what you don't realize when you're going to do as a student, it just seems like
[02:00:31] me and these guys are, you know, putting you all these difficult, these difficult things.
[02:00:35] Well, it's very controlled.
[02:00:36] It's very controlled.
[02:00:37] There's, you know, there's, there's a lot of supervision and there's a lot of different
[02:00:42] safety checks and medical checks and all those things that are happening all the time
[02:00:46] that are going on behind the scenes that the students don't even realize.
[02:00:49] So, you know, it doesn't mean every instructor always behaves the way they ship, but
[02:00:53] most of those guys are outstanding professionals.
[02:00:55] There are levels of leadership that are there to ensure that they perform well and do what
[02:01:01] they should do.
[02:01:02] And almost every case, that's, you know, that's the case.
[02:01:04] Those instructors are doing an outstanding job.
[02:01:06] I think the, the important thing here too is to understand that those standards have
[02:01:12] got to be high.
[02:01:13] And there are people, a lot of people outside the SEAL teams.
[02:01:16] We've had a lot of pressure on us right now, particularly with the push to open up all
[02:01:21] special operations and infantry units to women.
[02:01:26] This is a, this is a new push under the administration and our, our secretary of the Navy,
[02:01:32] Ray Maybus has been all over this and pushing that and wants to see women graduate from
[02:01:37] the SEAL teams.
[02:01:38] And I think that's pretty, he's pretty open about that.
[02:01:40] And so, this is, I think the danger here in the concern I have is that they'll use something
[02:01:47] like this, the politicians who don't know what, what makes a good SEAL.
[02:01:53] You know, they, they like, they like, they like to think they do, but they don't, they
[02:01:56] have no idea what makes a good SEAL.
[02:01:58] And they don't understand how difficult combat is.
[02:02:01] You know, people ask us sometimes, Jack, when I get questions like, tell us a good bud
[02:02:04] story, like, we don't talk about buds because everybody's meant to buds in the SEAL teams.
[02:02:09] And, and listen, buds is the kick in the nuts.
[02:02:11] It's a, it's a good training program.
[02:02:13] There's some stuff that's hard.
[02:02:15] Certainly, there's some stuff that wouldn't as hard as I thought it was, you know, it was
[02:02:17] going to be or should have been.
[02:02:19] But a lot of it's quite challenging and difficult.
[02:02:22] But it's a screening process.
[02:02:24] And to, to weed out the guys that we don't believe have the characteristics that are going
[02:02:27] to be able to be able to succeed on the battlefield, a lot of that is just the will to succeed
[02:02:31] through some, in person, be able to do some really difficult challenges.
[02:02:34] So it is critical that those standards remain high because combat is so much harder, physically
[02:02:40] harder than training.
[02:02:41] Yeah, that's what it's about.
[02:02:42] So you said, hey, it's important that we find that they have to will.
[02:02:45] There's also a level of physical toughness that you have to have that there just is.
[02:02:52] And when I say physical toughness, I'm talking about the actual ability to, for your body
[02:02:56] to withstand wear and tear.
[02:02:59] And that's one keep, you know, with the 80% attrition rate, not all those people are people
[02:03:04] that quit.
[02:03:05] It's people that can't stand the cold.
[02:03:06] They physically can't handle the cold.
[02:03:09] It's people that physically can't handle the stress on your shoulders, on your neck, on
[02:03:13] your back, on your knees, on your ankles.
[02:03:16] It is in very hard court.
[02:03:17] And you know, there's a great article that was written by two female marines that were in
[02:03:20] Afghanistan that kind of kind of put out an outpost where they were for all practical
[02:03:24] purposes alongside the male marines in a field environment.
[02:03:29] And they both wrote and said, women should not be doing this.
[02:03:34] And by the way, they were both, they were both really awesome marines who had been like
[02:03:40] some kind of collegiate athletes.
[02:03:42] They were, they were studs.
[02:03:43] And they just said, look, we didn't have our bodies didn't hold up.
[02:03:46] And that's one of the many things, you know, you just said it.
[02:03:48] When you're in combat, it's not, it's not a sport.
[02:03:51] You don't get the, you don't go to the training room afterwards and get an ice bath
[02:03:54] at a massage.
[02:03:55] You don't, and if something happens, they don't blow the whistle and come out on the field
[02:04:00] and let the trainer work on you and then pull you off and put a substance to it.
[02:04:03] It doesn't happen on the battlefield.
[02:04:04] And there aren't weight classes either.
[02:04:06] Yeah, there's no weight classes for sure.
[02:04:08] It's, so yeah, they need to maintain the standards.
[02:04:14] And they need to maintain the standards.
[02:04:18] I think we, we cannot allow that to slip and I think those instructors are doing
[02:04:22] they're out most of make sure that that happens.
[02:04:24] The other thing people need to understand too is when you're a student going through this
[02:04:27] for me, this is my dream.
[02:04:28] And guess what, when every time I'm going to med a medical check during our hell week, which
[02:04:33] they do, you know, every day, you're getting checked every morning and they're taking
[02:04:36] your temperature and they're, you know, they're taking your SBO2 and making sure that you
[02:04:42] don't have pneumonia, you don't have some other, you know, dangerous physical medical condition.
[02:04:48] Um, you're sweating it out.
[02:04:52] You're sweating it out because you know, you know, I'm not going to quit this training,
[02:04:55] but what if something that I can't control happens?
[02:04:56] What if I get pneumonia, I get fluid in my lungs?
[02:04:59] What if I get sick or something happens or I get some infection in my leg or I break, you
[02:05:03] know, my ankle, I mean, these things happen to guys.
[02:05:05] And so then you end up, you can get roll that a training, maybe it's just compounds
[02:05:09] and doing issues.
[02:05:10] So you're doing your utmost to make it through those medical checks and people need to
[02:05:13] understand that the, the students are trying to get under the radar and make it happen
[02:05:17] and we'll often push through injuries.
[02:05:19] A mutual friend of ours made it all the way through his hell week with a broken ankle,
[02:05:24] you know, running on it.
[02:05:25] They just wasn't going to stop.
[02:05:27] Just be tough.
[02:05:28] Was it going to stop?
[02:05:29] He was being tough.
[02:05:30] So, you know, so that's the kind of people that we want in the seal teams, you know, but
[02:05:34] on the other hand, instructor staff has a difficult job because they have to make sure
[02:05:37] that those guys are hurting themselves.
[02:05:39] And I've actually talked to, uh, I've talked to some folks who wanted to go in those
[02:05:43] sealed teams and had some medical condition that they, you know, they weren't getting,
[02:05:47] they were failing their Navy physical.
[02:05:49] It's a very difficult physical exam.
[02:05:51] You have to take, you know, medical exam and the said, you know, what?
[02:05:57] I just need a waiver for this and, you know, if they just give me this and I, I had to,
[02:06:01] I've explained this to multiple people when they told me that, I said, listen, those
[02:06:04] waivers are there to protect you.
[02:06:06] They're there to protect you to make sure that you don't get killed in training or, and
[02:06:09] they protect the team that, you know, when people were lying on you and your parents
[02:06:13] have critical piece of gear and we're covering moving that you don't go down.
[02:06:17] So because you're covering up some of the three.
[02:06:19] Yeah, exactly.
[02:06:20] So, you know, it's not about you.
[02:06:21] It's about the mission.
[02:06:23] And, and so, you know, unfortunately, this is when you're talking about these, these units,
[02:06:27] it's just not everybody can participate in that.
[02:06:29] Listen, I would have, I played high school football as a lineback and fullback.
[02:06:32] I'm 510, you know, 200 pounds.
[02:06:35] I would have loved to play it in the NFL.
[02:06:37] I'm not big enough, are strong enough, are fast enough to play in the NFL.
[02:06:41] So, the NFL teams are not going to benefit the if I'm playing lineback or fullback on their
[02:06:47] teams.
[02:06:48] They're going to be weaker.
[02:06:49] They're not going to be as good.
[02:06:51] So that's just the reality of it.
[02:06:53] We got to keep those standards high.
[02:06:55] And, you know, political pressure, I think is a very dangerous thing.
[02:06:59] And, and all it takes is for, you know, we, we're lucky we have some great leaders that
[02:07:05] are leading that training that are going to keep those standards high and understand how
[02:07:08] important that is.
[02:07:09] Unfortunately, it takes one week later, you know, to go in there and fold, fold to the political
[02:07:16] pressure and, and standards drop.
[02:07:19] And the world is, that darkness continues to spread.
[02:07:23] Particularly with that, that conversation that we open this with is darkness spreads throughout
[02:07:28] the world.
[02:07:29] We need our seal teams and special operators and infantry units to perform at the highest
[02:07:34] levels possible to go and be able to close with and destroy that enemy.
[02:07:38] Indeed, speaking of destroying the enemy.
[02:07:43] Next question is, how do you deal with rules of engagement?
[02:07:46] Are they necessary?
[02:07:47] Did they inhibit you?
[02:07:50] This is a question we get all the time.
[02:07:52] And people want to talk about rules of engagement.
[02:07:54] You know, everyone, there's always complaints.
[02:07:57] Guys, you come back from the battlefield.
[02:07:58] Like, the rules of engagement are so stringent.
[02:08:01] And these are different wars are fighting.
[02:08:02] These are counter-inservancy wars.
[02:08:04] And oftentimes people use the terms civilian casualties in a way that they're talking
[02:08:11] about innocent civilians.
[02:08:13] But what they don't realize is that everyone we're fighting is a civilian.
[02:08:17] None of them are uniformed members of a opposing military.
[02:08:21] They blend into the populace.
[02:08:23] They act like they're normal people.
[02:08:25] They hide amongst the people.
[02:08:27] Sometimes use them as human shields.
[02:08:29] And then they're shooting at you and shooting RPGs or machine guns at you and they maneuver.
[02:08:34] So it's a very challenging environment.
[02:08:37] But the rules of engagement really don't change.
[02:08:39] I rule the engagement are pretty clear.
[02:08:41] And you observe a hostile act, bad guys shooting at you or shooting at friendlies or
[02:08:47] a hostile intent.
[02:08:50] And that's where it becomes a little more grayer to say, okay, was this, was that person
[02:08:55] acting in a manner that had a reasonable certainty of hostile intent?
[02:08:59] So it's a judgment call up to the troops on the battlefield.
[02:09:05] And those rules of engagement don't change.
[02:09:06] They're always the same.
[02:09:08] I think what changes is leaders, leaders change.
[02:09:11] And there's some leaders that are willing to delegate that down to the lowest level
[02:09:15] troopers, trust in their guys, train them, make them understand just how important it is to
[02:09:21] make sure that they're operating within that rules of engagement.
[02:09:25] They are not accidentally engaging some innocent person and causing collateral damage
[02:09:32] that they didn't mean to.
[02:09:34] And there's some leaders that won't delegate that and keep it tight.
[02:09:37] And I want to really scrutinize guys for making the call.
[02:09:40] I think the best way for us, this was an incredibly important.
[02:09:44] People understand how our troops are put in a tough position because we know that anything
[02:09:50] we do in today's world with social media, with news, new cycles, could be absolutely
[02:09:55] a front page headline news in a heartbeat.
[02:09:59] And those can have massive catastrophic effect on the entire strategy.
[02:10:06] Yeah, the strategic mission.
[02:10:08] So this is something that we have to deal with regularly.
[02:10:11] And if guy thought he saw someone digging in the road and there were an ID layer and he
[02:10:19] decided to pull the trigger on someone that he thought was an ID layer and it turns out
[02:10:23] that it's not, we get investigative of that.
[02:10:26] It becomes a big deal.
[02:10:28] And that shooter, our US servicemen who are, or woman who engage is potentially looking
[02:10:37] yet going to prison for, for something like that.
[02:10:40] So it's a big deal if they violate the rules of engagement.
[02:10:43] One of the ways that Jaco did an amazing job of this.
[02:10:47] And one of our four principles are laws of combat that we talk about is simple.
[02:10:53] And one of the ways that he did this for us was, you know, all this law, your speak,
[02:10:59] a reasonable certainty of hostile intent and all these things.
[02:11:02] He would stand up before we roll that the gate every time.
[02:11:06] Every single operation and say, if you have to pull the trigger, you better make sure
[02:11:13] the guy you're killing is bad.
[02:11:16] Simple, everyone understood that.
[02:11:17] And we had total faith in trust in our guys to do that.
[02:11:21] And I'm so proud of that they were able to execute with tremendous discipline and minimize
[02:11:26] collateral damage in a way that other units couldn't, you know, in the way we did that.
[02:11:31] So I think rules of engagement are necessary.
[02:11:36] People have to understand them.
[02:11:37] And it's really whether or not it's delegate it down is entirely up to a leader.
[02:11:43] Yeah, and you can see the situation that led up to me lie, which we did a couple podcasts
[02:11:49] ago, the rules of engagement were the way that they were briefed.
[02:11:54] It wasn't, hey, make sure that people that you're killing are bad.
[02:11:58] It was everyone in this area's hostel.
[02:12:02] Everyone has been warned if they're to leave.
[02:12:05] So everyone you see is either Vietcong or Vietcong sympathizer killed them.
[02:12:11] And there's some scrutiny about whether they said killed them or not.
[02:12:14] Because that, that was a pretty simple clear message.
[02:12:17] But, you know, the difference in that the way that the rules of engagement were briefed
[02:12:25] were definitely a, a, a, a, a cause.
[02:12:32] One of the causes for the me lie masquer happening.
[02:12:35] It's a, it's a awful situation.
[02:12:38] Rules of engagement.
[02:12:40] All right.
[02:12:45] Next question is probably pretty quick, but how often would guys take shots in their body
[02:12:50] armor or helmet all the time?
[02:12:53] This happened all the time.
[02:12:55] And when we were in that urban combat in all the sustained combat day after day after day,
[02:13:02] after day, both for us in Charlie, but soon and in our, our, our, our, our, our, our, our,
[02:13:05] sister, but soon, delta but soon.
[02:13:07] It was operating on the other side of the city.
[02:13:09] It was just, this happened regularly.
[02:13:11] And we had guys, you know, who on patrol with a camel back, you know, and the, you know,
[02:13:16] the camel basket is a water bladder on the back.
[02:13:18] You wear the backpack.
[02:13:19] It's got the little hose tube that you can, you can drink water on on the move.
[02:13:23] Guys, no, no water is backpack realized later round went through it.
[02:13:27] I mean, you're talking inches away, you know, from his back.
[02:13:29] We had some multiple guy shot in the plates, front plate back plate.
[02:13:34] And, and got one of our guys picking up over the rooftop, kind of a big gunfight.
[02:13:39] Bam, takes takes, uh, all of a sudden you feel like some might punch him in the face.
[02:13:43] And, uh, kind of falls back down below the roof and kind of gets up.
[02:13:47] One of them, what's happening and takes off his helmet.
[02:13:49] It looks as a helmet realizes he's been shot in his night vision mount, uh,
[02:13:53] which meant that that round came in directly, you know, at his face.
[02:13:57] Hit his hit his hit his night vision mount and ricochet up, had it hit just, you know,
[02:14:01] a millimeters lower.
[02:14:03] It would have taken his head off.
[02:14:04] So that happened all the time.
[02:14:05] And I, I'm sure, Jockel, you remember this many times.
[02:14:09] I would, we'd put, come back from a park our homies.
[02:14:12] I'd walk in the door.
[02:14:13] I was, was going to check him with Jockel.
[02:14:14] Let me know, you know, what, what, what happened out there?
[02:14:17] What's going on, you know, what's, what's happening, you know, uh, now, you know,
[02:14:20] there are other options we need to get reloaded for things to think about.
[02:14:22] Walking in his office and first thing I would generally say is, God is a frog man.
[02:14:28] God's a frog man.
[02:14:28] He's looking out for us.
[02:14:29] I don't know how we made it out of that without losing guys or, you know,
[02:14:32] this was so many close calls.
[02:14:34] Uh, and it was just a constant thing all the time.
[02:14:39] Where your body armor, where you home, but, yeah, we, we always said guys on her.
[02:14:44] And you've, you've talked about this in the podcast before, but my first
[02:14:48] appointment, we would have guys that would wear body armor that was like, like six
[02:14:54] inches, six inches, five inches.
[02:14:55] Minimalistic body armor.
[02:14:56] Tiny little body armor.
[02:14:57] Nobody, you know, and, and in, in Ramadi get in those kind of gun fights,
[02:15:02] everyone was like, hey, can we get a little bigger place?
[02:15:04] Mm-hmm.
[02:15:05] Uh, some guys weren't a cut their helmets and a half shells before we got there.
[02:15:09] After we got there, is like, no, I'm not doing it.
[02:15:11] Good, man.
[02:15:12] Uh, some of the armor, some of the armor, some of the armor, some of the armor,
[02:15:15] guys, they would have the full, they look like almost like night's the crotch
[02:15:19] protected.
[02:15:20] Yeah, the crotch protected the collars, the arm sleeves, the side tap,
[02:15:22] you play it.
[02:15:23] They, they were covered up good on them because they were, uh, you know,
[02:15:26] taking real risks out there.
[02:15:27] So yeah, but, you know, Jody, medic, and I when he was on here, we had a little
[02:15:30] conversation about body armor, they didn't often expect to be in a certain spot.
[02:15:34] They weren't there and had body armor helmets on.
[02:15:36] And he, you know, he's sitting there and said, I was that what I had of.
[02:15:40] So where your body armor were, you know, but all the time.
[02:15:46] Next one, life.
[02:15:48] We truly appreciate your father's work here in Texas.
[02:15:53] Would you ever consider career in politics?
[02:15:55] Well, I appreciate that.
[02:15:58] There's just a, sir, by understands that my dad is a U.S. Congressman now.
[02:16:04] He's a freshman U.S. congressman from Texas, District 36 in southeast Texas.
[02:16:09] And I'm very proud of him.
[02:16:11] He retired after a career as a small town dentist, you know, business,
[02:16:17] selling for this.
[02:16:18] This is a army and Air Force army army and Air Force veteran.
[02:16:22] And he was fed up with Washington and didn't like the options that he saw.
[02:16:27] You know, that he knew we're going to be running for that seed.
[02:16:28] And he said, you know what?
[02:16:29] I'm throwing my hat in the ring.
[02:16:30] I'm going to go up there.
[02:16:30] I'm trying to make a difference.
[02:16:31] And I we need more people like that in Washington.
[02:16:34] That is my dad is there to make a difference and only to make a day.
[02:16:38] He doesn't care about a career.
[02:16:40] He doesn't care about being there for decades and decades and decades.
[02:16:43] You know, he's, he's retired and he'd rather be fishing hanging out with his grandkids.
[02:16:47] And, and hunting, but he would, but he's up there.
[02:16:50] He cares about the country and he is sacrificing to be there and to lead.
[02:16:55] And I'm, I'm damn proud of the job that he's doing and stepping up.
[02:16:58] What I consider a career in politics, I can't imagine anything to be more miserable than that.
[02:17:06] You know what?
[02:17:07] On the other hand, when I look at our nation, just as my dad has, has felt, you know,
[02:17:14] called to do that to step up to lead.
[02:17:16] You know, if we don't do it, who's going to do it?
[02:17:18] So somebody has got to step up.
[02:17:20] Somebody's got to lead.
[02:17:21] And I think when you look at the direction of our country right now and the political climate
[02:17:26] and all that's going on in this electoral cycle, what I do that may be,
[02:17:32] I just might be able to be talked into it.
[02:17:35] We shall see.
[02:17:38] What about you, Joko?
[02:17:39] Get some.
[02:17:40] I mean, we got, we got the bumper stickers.
[02:17:42] Right.
[02:17:42] Joko 2016.
[02:17:44] You know, see that.
[02:17:46] Go Charles.
[02:17:47] I think I would be running as, if I was to run for political office, I would run as dictator.
[02:17:54] And it's a pre-ruler of America.
[02:17:59] And that's what I thought I would do.
[02:18:01] We can bring back some of the Roman rule, try and try, I'm burned.
[02:18:05] So me and Echo, we could just take take over.
[02:18:08] I don't know if I have the stomach for politics.
[02:18:10] I really don't like the political arena too much.
[02:18:16] And not sure it's something I would ever have the desire to do.
[02:18:22] You know, I guess that's mine.
[02:18:24] That's where I sit.
[02:18:25] Maybe when I was 70 years old.
[02:18:30] Yeah.
[02:18:31] People of Asme too, you know, like, hey, if you were president,
[02:18:33] what would you do?
[02:18:34] You know, about the situation with Iran, you know,
[02:18:36] in their development, I'm nuclear weapons or China getting, you know,
[02:18:40] making big moves in the South China Sea or Russia,
[02:18:43] pushing the envelope and kind of filming their noses at us.
[02:18:48] And often I've told them that if I were president,
[02:18:50] I would immediately nominate Jaco Willing
[02:18:53] as Secretary of Defense.
[02:18:54] We would change Secretary of Defense to the previous title
[02:18:57] of Secretary of War.
[02:18:58] And I think those problems would disappear immediately.
[02:19:04] I think if I was president, it'd be very smart.
[02:19:06] My policy would be pretty simple.
[02:19:08] My policy would be kick ass.
[02:19:12] That's what we would do.
[02:19:13] Economic, what you're economic plan, Jaco?
[02:19:16] Kick ass.
[02:19:17] But what you, what would you do with this situation over here
[02:19:20] in the Middle East?
[02:19:22] Oh, there.
[02:19:22] Oh, yeah.
[02:19:22] We're going to do this.
[02:19:23] We're going to kick ass.
[02:19:25] What about the drug problem that we got coming in through the borders?
[02:19:29] Oh, the drug cartel?
[02:19:30] Yeah.
[02:19:30] We're going to kick ass on that.
[02:19:32] So that's my policy.
[02:19:33] So this is why I probably wouldn't be the best policy.
[02:19:37] That kind of like BTF.
[02:19:38] Anything?
[02:19:39] Yeah.
[02:19:39] Yeah.
[02:19:40] All right.
[02:19:42] Next question.
[02:19:45] Can you give us details of the mustard?
[02:19:50] So for those of you who don't know, we're doing an event in San Diego, California,
[02:19:55] Lake, Babin, and I.
[02:19:57] And you know what, echo, which I was going to be there.
[02:19:59] Maybe.
[02:20:00] Gonna be there in the sidelines.
[02:20:02] He's going to be signing t-shirts and cutting videos.
[02:20:06] We're doing an event October, 2020, first.
[02:20:10] And what it is, it is a deep dive into combat leadership.
[02:20:15] What combat leadership is all about?
[02:20:17] How do apply combat leadership to your business, to your life?
[02:20:23] How to get out there, lead, and win?
[02:20:25] The reason we're doing this is, as you know, Lake and I've been doing this gig for the past
[02:20:31] five years, working with a bunch of different companies.
[02:20:34] We wrote the book Extreme Ownership.
[02:20:36] It's very popular.
[02:20:38] We get a lot of requests.
[02:20:40] And we've, you know, we've, honestly, we're in a lot of demand.
[02:20:43] And people want us to come and work with a bunch of different companies.
[02:20:45] We can't always do it.
[02:20:46] We've actually had to raise our prices so that we could kind of slow down a little bit, slow
[02:20:50] down the demand.
[02:20:52] But when we're doing that, that means we're cutting a lot of people out, you know.
[02:20:55] And I'm a man of the people.
[02:20:58] And I want to support the work in man.
[02:21:00] So how can we get something where we're regular people can come, maybe they don't
[02:21:04] have, maybe their company isn't support, bring us out, or it's too expensive for us to
[02:21:07] come out.
[02:21:08] Well, how about you send two or three of the critical leaders out there?
[02:21:11] We spend a day and a half, get deep, working, working through the things that we've learned,
[02:21:16] going face to face with people and explaining things to them, how to deal with it.
[02:21:21] This is not one of the things.
[02:21:22] This is not going to be, this is not going to be a feel good seminar.
[02:21:27] This is going to be, hey, we're here to pump you up.
[02:21:30] And that's not what we're doing.
[02:21:31] We're here to educate.
[02:21:32] We're here to talk about leadership.
[02:21:33] We're going to learn to.
[02:21:34] It's going to be great to have a bunch of people in leadership positions that we
[02:21:37] can talk to that we can communicate that we can learn from situations that they've been in.
[02:21:42] We get, when I put out that you were coming back on the podcast, 100s and 100s questions,
[02:21:47] I get thousands of questions.
[02:21:48] I have on the podcast question back, it's 82 pages long.
[02:21:55] 82 pages worth of questions, so what I have right now.
[02:21:57] I'm answering five or six questions of podcast.
[02:22:01] So let's get people that want to come out, want to get face to face with life and I and learn
[02:22:08] about leadership, learn what we've learned and how to apply in business life.
[02:22:11] That's what we're doing with the master.
[02:22:13] It's important to say to this, this is not a tour.
[02:22:15] We're not going to take this from city to city to city to city.
[02:22:18] This is, we're going to have one master.
[02:22:21] This is an annual event.
[02:22:23] Maybe at some point we'll expand in one West Coast when he's coast.
[02:22:27] That's maybe.
[02:22:28] Right now, we're going to do it.
[02:22:29] We're going to do one, one master, annual event.
[02:22:32] And this is for leaders, whether you're a leader, follower, anyone who wants to better
[02:22:38] themselves to dive deep into these issues of leadership, of teamwork, of extreme ownership,
[02:22:43] of the laws of combat and how to apply them.
[02:22:46] This is for you.
[02:22:47] Come to San Diego, join us.
[02:22:49] We're looking forward to diving deep into those issues, helping you solve some challenges
[02:22:53] to lead and win.
[02:22:56] Boom.
[02:22:57] Come out to the master.
[02:22:58] There's a website for it and we'll tweet it out.
[02:23:03] Go to echelonfront.com.
[02:23:05] You can find it on there.
[02:23:06] That's our company.
[02:23:08] So we can go check that out.
[02:23:10] We're looking forward to the people that want to come out and come and get some.
[02:23:15] Now the reason that life was out here with me here in San Diego was for a series of events
[02:23:23] to commemorate the 10 year anniversary of August 2nd, 2006, which is the day that Mark
[02:23:33] Allen Lee, who was the first seal killed in Iraq, was killed in Ramadi and also the
[02:23:44] day where Ryan Job, otherwise known as Biggles, was gravely wounded, shot in the face and
[02:23:53] the wounds that ultimately led to his death as well.
[02:23:59] This particular events were focused on Mark in an event to support a charity organization
[02:24:09] that his mom runs called America's Mighty Warriors.
[02:24:19] And at one of those events, I was honored to give a speech from my perspective on Mark.
[02:24:35] And here it is.
[02:24:39] 10 years.
[02:24:45] 10 years is a long time, a decade.
[02:24:52] And in many ways, it seems so far in the past.
[02:25:01] In some ways, it doesn't seem so far away at all.
[02:25:10] It isn't hard to remember being deployed in Ramadi Iraq in the summer of 2006.
[02:25:20] And yes, sometimes that seems like a distant place a long time ago.
[02:25:29] And yet, sometimes it feels like we were just there yesterday.
[02:25:36] The sweltering heat, the dust, the danger, the crystal clear focus on our mission.
[02:25:43] When we had but one purpose in our lives to close with and destroy an evil enemy bent
[02:25:50] on destroying us and our way of life.
[02:25:57] It doesn't take much for the mind to return there to regain that mindset to get into the combat
[02:26:07] mode and remember the operations out in the city.
[02:26:18] Remember the tracer rounds in the night sky, explosions shaking the earth, the weight of body
[02:26:25] armor and weapons and gear on our shoulders.
[02:26:29] Remember the stress and the violence and the sweat and the blood and remember the evil.
[02:26:40] The pure evil that infected the city and committed savage, vile and disgusting acts of
[02:26:48] mortal sin, murder, rape and torture.
[02:26:58] And inside that dark world, a world ripped apart by war, a world where sometimes humanity
[02:27:06] seemed all but lost.
[02:27:11] That is where we got to see and experience the polar opposite, the counter to all that darkness.
[02:27:18] Against that backdrop of evil, we young men, we band of brothers, we got to witness light
[02:27:33] and life and love so strong that it makes the darkness fade and makes the evil power
[02:27:39] and hide its wretched face.
[02:27:44] So bow's down when it sees the bond we develop with the soldiers and marines we fought
[02:27:49] alongside.
[02:27:52] Evil cannot contest the bond we formed with our brother seals, with whom we had become so
[02:28:02] close that there is no stronger force in the world, nothing more powerful, nothing more
[02:28:09] meaning for the knowing that these men, these fog men that we would do anything for each
[02:28:16] other.
[02:28:20] We saw powerful acts of heroism and courage on an almost daily basis which reassured us
[02:28:28] solemnly that good would triumph over evil and amongst all that glory there were a few
[02:28:41] men, the true heroes, the ones that rose above the rest of us to symbolize and personify,
[02:28:49] courage and faith and selflessness and love.
[02:28:59] Mark Allen Lee was one of those rare men, one of those heroes, one of the few men my life
[02:29:10] that I literally described as a saint, that is who Mark was.
[02:29:20] A mighty warrior whose ferocity and combat was perfectly balanced by faith and humor and compassion.
[02:29:31] A man that left his mark on everyone that he met, a mark of happiness, then positivity,
[02:29:38] and of humility and of joy, a man whose love for his family and friends was so unbounded
[02:29:50] and so limitless that you could actually feel it emanating from his heart.
[02:30:02] And now he has left his mark on the world, Mark Lee, Mark Allen Lee, when faced with fear,
[02:30:24] who else could bring a smile, when faced with sadness, who else could bring laughter,
[02:30:37] when faced with hate, who else could bring love, and when faced with death, who else could
[02:30:49] stand and say, take me, Lord, not my brothers, I will be there shield now from death, take
[02:30:58] me and let them live on.
[02:31:07] And that is what Mark did, full of youth and energy and courage and humor and full of love.
[02:31:22] He stood, he stood against evil and he stood against death and he gave his life for his
[02:31:32] brothers.
[02:31:35] And for our freedom on August 2nd, 2006 in our Ramadi Iraq, 10 years ago, 10 years ago,
[02:31:59] and in those 10 years, think of all that has happened in our lives, big events like
[02:32:12] marriages, children born, birthdays, new houses, new jobs, new careers, and small events,
[02:32:27] morning surf session, lunch with your buddies, and weekend in the mountains, a cold
[02:32:36] ice tea on a hot summer's day, smile, a laugh, life, joy, happiness, and every moment of
[02:33:05] that happiness is a gift, a gift given to us by Mark who sacrificed everything for us,
[02:33:23] who gave up his own precious smile so we could all have ours.
[02:33:33] Now I can tell you without a shred of doubt that on this day, Mark would not want tears,
[02:33:41] he would not want sadness, he would not want sorrow, he would want smiles and laughter
[02:33:51] and joy because that was his gift to us, every smile, every laugh, every ounce of life
[02:34:05] and love is all a gift from a warrior, a friend, a comedian, a son, a brother, a hero, a saint,
[02:34:33] and what do we owe Mark?
[02:34:45] For Mark, each and every one of us must relish the gift that he gave to us and cherish
[02:34:53] each and every day while remembering the incredible man that gave us this gift of life
[02:35:13] and to the seals that are listening, the frogmen, you oh Mark, what we owe all our fallen
[02:35:27] brothers, the grave commitment to carry the fire, to hold the torch and hold it high,
[02:35:36] to take the fight to the enemy, every chance you get without mercy and without remorse
[02:35:46] until they are vanquished and there is peace.
[02:35:59] Thank you Mark.
[02:36:02] We will never forget you.
[02:36:06] God bless Mark's family, God bless the teams, God bless America and God bless Mark Alan Lee.
[02:36:25] When I think that's all we've got for the night and I want to thank everybody that's
[02:36:34] out there.
[02:36:35] That's listening.
[02:36:39] Thank you for remembering.
[02:36:46] And that's one of the things that we do here remember.
[02:36:56] I want to thank Lay for coming on.
[02:37:00] We've been tied into so many things and you are pointing that out to me the other day,
[02:37:12] we've been tied into so many different things and so many far reaching stories that we've
[02:37:23] been a part of.
[02:37:26] And I thank you for coming on here and helping to share some of these stories with me
[02:37:34] for everyone to hear.
[02:37:36] Thanks for having me.
[02:37:38] I have one can remember.
[02:37:43] Those of you that are out there and you want to keep listening and you want to keep
[02:37:48] remembering.
[02:37:53] Echo.
[02:37:54] Can they support this?
[02:37:57] I'll be out here.
[02:37:59] Red cluster.
[02:38:00] Red star cluster.
[02:38:02] Yeah, thanks for coming on, Lee.
[02:38:04] That's right, man.
[02:38:08] We didn't talk much about working out or that kind of stuff but if you're into supplements,
[02:38:15] even if you're not into supplements, my opinion, going on a dot com slash jockel, get on
[02:38:20] its supplements.
[02:38:21] That'll help you out a lot.
[02:38:23] 10% off.
[02:38:24] So we said a bunch of times but I can't, I can't say enough really as far as benefits.
[02:38:29] It'll put you head for sure.
[02:38:31] So yeah, get 10% off that.
[02:38:34] If you want to support with the Amazon situation, the one where you go to the website,
[02:38:41] click on the Amazon link.
[02:38:42] You don't be for you.
[02:38:43] You're shopping.
[02:38:45] That's a good way to do it.
[02:38:47] If you have our time remembering, we have the Trooper tool, which is good.
[02:38:51] Brady.
[02:38:52] Brady, boy.
[02:38:53] Came through on the other one.
[02:38:56] It's a thing.
[02:38:57] There's a link on the website.
[02:38:58] It's called the Trooper tool.
[02:38:59] You click on it.
[02:39:00] It takes you to the page.
[02:39:01] You click on it.
[02:39:02] You say yes.
[02:39:03] It's a little thing.
[02:39:04] So it automatically directs you to Amazon.
[02:39:10] It adds the affiliate links.
[02:39:11] So you support the podcast.
[02:39:14] You don't have to go through the website anymore.
[02:39:17] That's a good one.
[02:39:19] Yeah, and subscribe to the podcast on iTunes.
[02:39:20] That's a good one.
[02:39:22] And there's other places to subscribe to it.
[02:39:24] Yeah.
[02:39:25] Sure.
[02:39:26] YouTube.
[02:39:27] Google Play, by the way.
[02:39:28] Yeah.
[02:39:29] And Stitcher to turn to that.
[02:39:30] I think it's the main one.
[02:39:32] Hey man, Stitcher's dope as well.
[02:39:35] Google Play too.
[02:39:36] It's on there.
[02:39:37] So yeah.
[02:39:38] And go to the YouTube channel.
[02:39:39] I was going to release a video today.
[02:39:42] It was like, I'll take whatever.
[02:39:45] But what?
[02:39:47] You're protesting.
[02:39:48] I still have to fire it up.
[02:39:49] Yeah, man.
[02:39:50] Let's do fire it up with other stuff.
[02:39:52] I'll post it tonight.
[02:39:53] Let me get some.
[02:39:54] So it's like, what is it?
[02:39:56] I'll take video.
[02:39:57] Yeah, it's like, one was the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the,
[02:40:00] See what makes me nervous about this is I believe in decentralized command.
[02:40:05] All right.
[02:40:06] They can attest to that right.
[02:40:08] Sure.
[02:40:09] I don't believe in decentralized command.
[02:40:10] Sure.
[02:40:11] But now I'm starting to deal with it.
[02:40:12] May possible trust scenario.
[02:40:13] You're requires trust and confidence.
[02:40:14] Well, sure.
[02:40:15] Yeah.
[02:40:16] What if my brother echo Charles haven't seen it.
[02:40:19] Yep.
[02:40:20] So this is the unauthorized outtakes.
[02:40:22] Yeah.
[02:40:23] So here.
[02:40:24] And we're going to, we're going to ease into this whole thing.
[02:40:27] So there's one.
[02:40:29] And this is just off the top man where I was telling you about my, my children's book idea.
[02:40:33] Oh, okay.
[02:40:34] Yeah.
[02:40:35] You're going to make, okay.
[02:40:36] It's a good idea.
[02:40:37] Okay.
[02:40:38] That was the fish in the water.
[02:40:39] I actually remember right now, which is hitting me, right?
[02:40:42] I'm okay with it.
[02:40:43] I was just, uh, I was looking to certain that he might have, uh, you know, a rendition
[02:40:47] of me and you singing, we are the world.
[02:40:49] Yes.
[02:40:50] Yes.
[02:40:51] Which I don't think we hit record yet.
[02:40:52] We don't want that.
[02:40:53] We don't want that.
[02:40:54] I don't know if I win.
[02:40:55] When Laf and I were put the headphones on and the mics in front of us and we're
[02:40:58] standing here looking at each other and it felt very much like if you were live during
[02:41:02] the 80s, he did that we are the world video.
[02:41:05] And for some reason that just hit us both at the same time, we busted out.
[02:41:08] We are the world.
[02:41:09] Markling them, bro.
[02:41:10] And she won a good beat.
[02:41:12] I was proud for sure.
[02:41:15] And yeah.
[02:41:16] So the YouTube videos I told you last time, echo needs motivation.
[02:41:21] He's, you know, he's, he's just a laid back guy.
[02:41:25] So we need to motivate him and he, that his excuse was, well, you know, that I'm going to
[02:41:30] describe your own, oh, no, no, no, no, no, no.
[02:41:33] That doesn't sound like a stream ownership.
[02:41:35] Why should I watch that?
[02:41:36] I've never said that.
[02:41:37] That's the thing.
[02:41:38] All right.
[02:41:39] So cool.
[02:41:40] Nothing to get too technical.
[02:41:41] It's not, I don't need motivation.
[02:41:42] They need incentive.
[02:41:43] Oh, they'll take their, they're different.
[02:41:45] Okay.
[02:41:46] I don't want to get into a big thing.
[02:41:47] Yeah.
[02:41:48] Yeah.
[02:41:49] I don't want to either.
[02:41:50] Awesome.
[02:41:51] So that's it.
[02:41:53] Thank you.
[02:41:54] The jockel store is a good one.
[02:41:55] You know, get a shirt if you like those, um, and a bumper sticker.
[02:41:58] Oh, whatever.
[02:41:59] If you like those, I forgot about the t-shirts and the store, the jockel store.
[02:42:03] Yeah, that's a little bit.
[02:42:04] And if you like them, yeah, if you don't like them, don't get them.
[02:42:09] Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[02:42:10] Oh, yeah.
[02:42:11] I've seen a lot of those on Twitter.
[02:42:12] Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[02:42:13] Awesome.
[02:42:14] We do dig that.
[02:42:15] But I'll tell you, if, I should we just say to stop asking us for like a donation
[02:42:19] page.
[02:42:20] No, we shouldn't say that.
[02:42:22] Okay.
[02:42:23] And with it, don't ask me.
[02:42:25] Patreon, Patreon, Patreon.
[02:42:26] Patreon.
[02:42:27] Patreon.
[02:42:28] We're not going to do it.
[02:42:29] Yeah, probably not going to do it.
[02:42:30] If you want to donate, you can donate paper.
[02:42:31] Yeah, if you can, that's good.
[02:42:33] That's cool.
[02:42:34] It is cool to see those because it's like 434.
[02:42:36] Yeah.
[02:42:37] Yeah, because that's that's the cool.
[02:42:39] That's what the cool kids do.
[02:42:40] They donate $4.34 a month to keep them up in a gauge.
[02:42:45] Up before the enemy.
[02:42:46] Yeah, that is cool.
[02:42:48] Yeah, by the way, it's sleep deprivation.
[02:42:50] I'm on it right now.
[02:42:51] Dave and I were out late last night and we were up very early this morning to work out
[02:42:55] and then go surfing.
[02:42:56] That's right.
[02:42:57] We were on.
[02:42:58] We were work and play.
[02:42:59] All right.
[02:43:00] This is a pleasure to say about that.
[02:43:02] Good.
[02:43:03] Exactly.
[02:43:04] Awesome.
[02:43:05] Awesome.
[02:43:06] Yeah, those are the ways.
[02:43:07] Okay, good.
[02:43:08] And then also, if you want, you don't believe in not this guy sitting here with me,
[02:43:15] Dave Baben.
[02:43:16] Yeah.
[02:43:17] I know E and I might not look like the smartest people in the world.
[02:43:20] We might actually not be this smart as people know it, but we did write a book.
[02:43:23] People, people look at me and probably think I can't spell my name or read much less
[02:43:28] write a book.
[02:43:29] But we did write a book.
[02:43:31] The books continue to do really well.
[02:43:32] And if you're interested in the book, if you're interested in the concepts and
[02:43:37] Jockel talks about the stuff that we just talked about and we talked about in episode 11 of
[02:43:42] the Jockel podcast, get the book and dive into that stuff, deep talk about extreme
[02:43:46] ownership.
[02:43:47] Talk about the laws of combat and how they apply.
[02:43:49] We use combat scenarios.
[02:43:50] We talk about the principle and we talk about how to apply to different businesses and
[02:43:54] organizations that we work with over the years.
[02:43:57] It's something that for us, our mission was to write a book that could be useful for leaders
[02:44:04] as a reference.
[02:44:05] A good read that people can get into and have some exciting stores that are applicable.
[02:44:11] But also is a useful reference for leaders to highlight underlying tab refer to regularly
[02:44:18] you know, dog ear pages and as we've received that kind of feedback and people post messages
[02:44:24] on social media about their books and the dog ear pages and the tabs or the highlights.
[02:44:30] And the feedback we've received has been tremendous and if we've done that and accomplished
[02:44:35] that for those leaders, as that useful reference that has helped them be better leaders,
[02:44:39] better followers, better team members, accomplish their mission when then we've succeeded
[02:44:44] in our mission.
[02:44:45] I'll tell you what fires me up too.
[02:44:47] I love seeing that.
[02:44:49] I love seeing when people are like, they're showing a, because I post pictures of the books
[02:44:53] that I do on the podcast and they're all, they're all notes and they're all that stuff
[02:44:57] because I'm getting ready.
[02:44:58] I dive deep.
[02:44:59] And so people do that to our book and like you said, that's awesome.
[02:45:03] And we love signing books that have massive, the other cool thing.
[02:45:07] There's two other cool things.
[02:45:08] They're kind of related.
[02:45:09] One of them is when people send a picture of a stack of books and they're like issuing
[02:45:14] these to my teams today, we're going to get it on that's awesome.
[02:45:17] And there's something else that happens.
[02:45:19] That's a little bit.
[02:45:21] It might be more awesome.
[02:45:23] It might be the same awesome, but it's definitely awesome.
[02:45:26] And that's when they're, when they're giving the book to their boss.
[02:45:29] Right?
[02:45:30] And there's, and somebody, somebody hit us up the other day and like, how do I give this book
[02:45:33] to my boss and I think, lay for out, you know, something along lines of, hey, it's a great,
[02:45:37] it's a great thing to give to your boss.
[02:45:40] And when you do it, say, hey man, I learn, you know, you don't want to say, you're
[02:45:44] thinking, the thing you don't want to do is say, you need to get some extreme ownership.
[02:45:50] So I'm giving this to you as a hint.
[02:45:52] No, what you want to say is, I got so much out of this book and I'm going to turn, you know,
[02:45:56] I look forward to applying what I learned.
[02:45:59] I just want, if you see a change in attitude, I want you to know where it's coming from.
[02:46:02] Do something like that.
[02:46:03] Be tactical.
[02:46:04] Well, interestingly enough, ironically, looking at someone and saying, you need extreme ownership
[02:46:11] is not extreme ownership, right?
[02:46:12] Because extreme ownership is about you and you got to control that relationship.
[02:46:16] You got to build that relationship.
[02:46:17] So if you feel like the boss needs a luxury ownership, then you got to own that.
[02:46:21] And you get to lead up the chain of command, which is one of the chapters you really
[02:46:23] know about.
[02:46:24] And it's cool to, you know, we're out of here.
[02:46:26] Obviously, this weekend, we saw a lot of our, of our, of our, seal buddies and it's interesting
[02:46:31] we always have an conversation with, I think there's three or four of us saying the circle,
[02:46:35] but they were talking about the book and, you know, it's guys that were junior to us at
[02:46:40] the time and now they're saying, hey, you know, this is awesome.
[02:46:45] I'm getting a lot out of it.
[02:46:46] And then guys that are senior to us with the, I wish I would add this book.
[02:46:52] And you know what I'd say?
[02:46:53] I do too.
[02:46:55] I do too.
[02:46:56] I wish I would have this book.
[02:46:57] I mean, it's just like a little step up to just know and be able to read him.
[02:47:04] It just gives you that insight.
[02:47:06] And it's awesome.
[02:47:07] We appreciate, appreciate that.
[02:47:10] Appreciate everyone giving us the solid feedback.
[02:47:13] Killer.
[02:47:14] And you got anything else, Dave?
[02:47:17] That's all I got.
[02:47:18] Thanks for having me on.
[02:47:19] Gonna be on with you guys again.
[02:47:20] Always.
[02:47:21] Oh, looking forward to the next time.
[02:47:24] Echo Charles closing comments.
[02:47:26] Point go.
[02:47:27] No, Plinkle.
[02:47:28] Leaf does something like Batman.
[02:47:31] That's all.
[02:47:32] The Texas Batman.
[02:47:33] Texas Batman.
[02:47:37] I actually never heard that.
[02:47:39] I never heard that until the audio book.
[02:47:41] You never heard Texas Batman.
[02:47:42] Yeah, Jocelyn actually, we read the audio book.
[02:47:45] James Earl Jones wasn't available.
[02:47:47] So we read it ourselves.
[02:47:49] I would have, I would have given it up for if James Earl Jones had,
[02:47:51] I might have done that.
[02:47:52] But we read it ourselves.
[02:47:53] And that's the first time I started hearing that people were like,
[02:47:56] you sound like, Texas Batman.
[02:47:57] So they're Batman.
[02:47:58] I was like, what are you talking about?
[02:48:00] You know, I don't even, I don't even, I don't even,
[02:48:02] I don't even, I don't even, I don't even, I don't even, I don't even.
[02:48:04] I don't even, I don't even, I don't even, I don't even.
[02:48:06] You know what, one too many immediate action drills over the years,
[02:48:10] I guess, screaming out some commands.
[02:48:12] Or maybe it was when I lost my cool.
[02:48:14] We talked about.
[02:48:15] I should have done less of that.
[02:48:16] Blue, you've always out awesome.
[02:48:18] Well, as always, if anybody out there wants to continue this conversation,
[02:48:23] we'll ever all up on the inner webs.
[02:48:25] Twitter, the Facebookie, Instagram, Echo is at Echo Charles.
[02:48:32] Charles' life is at Lave Babin and I am at Jocca Willink.
[02:48:37] And to all those folks out there, you need to uniform.
[02:48:43] Those in the military on the front lines in the war against evil.
[02:48:51] Those police on the thin blue line, fighting criminals and terror here at home and the firefighters
[02:49:00] that run towards the danger to protect us in our homes.
[02:49:08] Thanks to you all for everything that you do.
[02:49:12] And arrested the troopers out there in the world, moving forward, stepping up, taking
[02:49:20] charge in business, in education, in healthcare, buying, selling, building, creating, making
[02:49:29] the most of this gift.
[02:49:34] Thanks for listening.
[02:49:37] Thanks for spreading the word.
[02:49:40] And thanks for grabbing life by the horns.
[02:49:44] Going out there aggressively every day and getting after it.
[02:49:53] So until next time, this is Lave, Echo and Jocco.
[02:50:02] You're different.