Jocko Podcast 33 w/ Echo Charles | The Killing Zone | Fighting & Male Psyche | BJJ Frustration

2016-07-27T22:45:21Z

Join the conversation on Twitter: @jockowillink @echocharles 0:00:00 – Opening 0:0:3:13 – “The Killing Zone”, by Frederick Downs – Book review 1:27:48 – Internet / Onnit Stuff 1:41:07 – Is Fighting ability the most overlooked essential stabilizer in the young male psyche? 1:58:01 – Frustrations of beginning Jiu Jitsu 2:11:41 – Checking ego while Talking about yourself in an interview 2:16:02 – Staying humble when you know you have better skills than others. 2:27:15 – When 2 leaders have Extreme Ownership have to go against each other. 2:35:06 – Overcoming Fear of Failure

AI summary of episode

There's no one like that, even, you know, Mikey Thornton, who won't see all that one of the metal varnish, awesome guy of, you know, just to just to, you know, he's a hero, but if you know, he gets interviewed, if it's watched a bunch of interviewed here and heard him talk, he's like, you know, he's like, oh, you know, you got the metal varnish that's not mine. That's why it's almost like if you don't know judo to, like, or for real fighting, there's not many out there, and there's not many, but even, we'll just say, if you don't know judo to, you might fall into this trap by thinking, well, you know, I might, you know, you never know. I wanted to do a little preview today of what it was like when we're getting set up because we have a little ritual that we go through when we're making some some beverages, you know, some alpha brainy and we have, you know, so I was like, I'd be pretty cool if you shot a little video and he's like, well, you know, maybe one day. Did you think that, like, and I can't, I mean, I don't know if, maybe this is where this even the question is coming from, but, if, you know, when you're insecure and you're just, like, everything's a competition, like, just in life, it's like, it goes beyond just what you're into. You know, because as an adult, like, you know, I think anywhere past 26, 27 years old, it's hard to get away with like, getting into a wrestling match in public, or, you know, somewhere outside of the map. So, so you're right in that, the more you train with people that are better than you, your defense is gonna be very good, because like when you mount me, I mean, you got a good solid mount, but I'm like, I'm like, okay, cool, I'm gonna be out of this You know, like, let's say like, like, the fight back to the fighting situation where about, you know, being a secure part of the male balancing and real psyche. But by the way, I don't know if you do this, you know, like, guys would be like, hey, I want to come visit you at the jammer when I'm right. And it makes it like, it's kind of, this little tool is kind of cool because it kind of makes it official, you know, like if you're, I mean, if you're one of the people that that listen to this and really talk with us and stuff, it's a cool way to kind of be more part of the group I guess. And then that person's getting launched, you know, like, a perfect judo, because you're going to, you know, how hard is it to judo throw somebody that doesn't know any judo to do to it? And it's really, it does serve its purpose because you know, Amazon, you know, like Amazon there, you know, they're a good company provides good stuff, good service and all that. And so I think it's, you know, and I felt that you know when I was a kid, you know, I got bullied just like everybody gets bullied at sort of certain point. Like, it's like you're walking around with this big, powerful, like, gun or something, like you're like, okay, who wants to get shot? I'm like, you know what, I don't really, hey, you know, I don't want to talk about that on the podcast, but this, like, for instance, before we hit record, we're recording, but before we go before I open the show, we're talking about something. It's like you don't want to actually fight with people because you don't feel the need to like, oh, I got a, I don't know, Yeah, you didn't think of it. You know, when I've seen that, you know, my son's had a couple little scuffles, a couple that I've witnessed too, where, you know, he just was like not trying to, not trying to have a problem until someone just grabs him. Am I looking, you know, so that's the kind of thing that I like to go back and look at the YouTube videos and say, you know, what does this look like? That way, when echo because I'm been, I've been hacking on echo to make little outtakes and other little conversations and videos and he's like, well, you know, we got some subscribers, but maybe, you know, if we had some more, maybe I'd be more. Like it seems like when I first read it, I was like, oh shoot, that's a good question, you know? But you drew an idol, but like it, like as someone who's competing in everything in life, like if you draw something and I draw something, you're like, I want to make my better. Yeah, I know for everybody, you know, people know what we, what we want to do is we want to maximize the effort that we put in here. So, when you are better than them, it's like you're still looking at this competition, like, you know, like, you're not on my level, so you don't deserve to be treated. You know, instead you'd say, you know, I got this, we had a $38 million project, got it done on time, under budget, ahead of schedule and when I got done with that, when they moved me to another project that was off track, and we got that one back on schedule and back on track as well. So whereas if I roll with a random other really good, you know, world of class, black belt, they might not know the particulars of my escape, Dean actually does know those, and he's good at it. It seems like it when I put my in up there, I'm like, hey, you know, I'm like fish. And pull them you feel the force of somebody or someone's just all like on you or even if someone like, I don't know, tackles you or something like that. And at the same time though, so if you fall in, and I don't wanna say it's like a small, because it's pretty big chance where if you enter a beginner class, there's gonna be a guy who's just as much of a beginner as you, and that's where you can really flourish, because you can practice moves, your new moves, which I mean, for lack of a better term, your junk moves, you know, on junk people. Yeah, it seems like the extreme ownership, as far as owning it is essentially taking responsibility like at all costs kind of thing for more like the bad stuff that happens. You know, you gotta, like, I don't know, hit him or something, really hard to knock him out one punch. Right, just like how you're saying, like even if someone had got like an award to be the best whatever. You know, so that people know like, oh, he read it cool on Facebook. Like, you gotta do, from behind, I don't know, even if you see him from behind, you know what to do from behind. I'm like, my knuckles, you know, I'm probably going to rip my t-shirt, this guy's gonna be right there. I'm saying like, your friends, you know, Oh, just, oh, whatever, you know, yeah, you do, And I've, you know, before you do that, I'll be like, hey guys, if you feel like fighting tonight, come find me. It's like three to five times with somebody that's never trained to get to before three to five times before they realize like, Oh, I'm never, Because you know, When you tap a guy once that's never trained before. And I wonder if, you know, because when I'm feeling that way, I'm like, okay, you got to attach a little bit because you're starting to get a little bit fired up. Like, if you're having trouble, like, being humble, it's kind of like, I'm just better than you in life. So like that's the kind of shirt, like, you know, a lot of lighter color shirt. And I know, you know, I know I get, I hear from all kinds of cops.

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Episode transcript

[00:00:00] This is Jockel Podcast number 33 with echo Charles and me, Jockel Willink.
[00:00:08] Good evening, echo.
[00:00:10] Good evening.
[00:00:15] People say there is a line.
[00:00:20] There's a line between good and evil, right and wrong,
[00:00:25] between light and dark.
[00:00:32] And that's a nice, clean way to think of things.
[00:00:39] But the line can be hard to recognize.
[00:00:43] It can get blurry.
[00:00:45] It can get twisted by emotion and passion and by one's own ego.
[00:00:53] And in war, that line is tested.
[00:00:58] It's pressed.
[00:01:00] It becomes even more blurry.
[00:01:05] It gets crossed and violated,
[00:01:09] and sometimes abandoned.
[00:01:13] And we can see that throughout history,
[00:01:16] and we've talked about it here in the Japanese slave camps in Rwanda,
[00:01:21] and me lie.
[00:01:23] Those are a few examples, but there are thousands of them.
[00:01:29] And I've seen the line.
[00:01:31] And I've seen men approach the line.
[00:01:38] Driven, filled with fury and with hate.
[00:01:47] And that fury needs an outlet.
[00:01:51] And if it gets a purchase,
[00:01:55] it can become unstoppable.
[00:02:01] But it can also be controlled.
[00:02:05] Because there is a counter to all that evil.
[00:02:13] There is the man that steps up and says, no.
[00:02:19] No, not today, not here, not now.
[00:02:22] We will not do that.
[00:02:27] And the dichotomy of leadership and the dichotomy of war is so hard to balance.
[00:02:37] The soldiers are trained and tasked to kill.
[00:02:45] And yet they are also trained to be humane and fair and moral and good.
[00:02:56] So how does a warrior reconcile those opposing forces?
[00:03:01] How do we know how to be?
[00:03:08] How does he know to balance?
[00:03:16] God damn!
[00:03:18] Thoughts rush through my mind as I try to decide what to do.
[00:03:23] Women, old men, and kids, obviously non-combatants.
[00:03:28] But this is a free fire zone.
[00:03:31] There are not supposed to be civilians in this area.
[00:03:34] But dinks occasionally ignore those warnings about free fire areas.
[00:03:38] Maybe they are the point element for Viet Kong or NVA traveling behind them.
[00:03:43] Maybe they are supposed to give the warning if stopped.
[00:03:45] It's happened before.
[00:03:47] In that case, some of my men could come under fire and be killed or wounded.
[00:03:52] Four or six killed that one tank last evening and he had a Thompson.
[00:03:56] There was a whole squad of Kong in that group.
[00:03:59] There was some incoming fire when we made the LZ.
[00:04:02] A dink tried to cross the dark last night.
[00:04:05] These people look innocent enough.
[00:04:08] They may be carrying supplies for the Kong and the area, food and or ammo.
[00:04:14] It's a free fire zone.
[00:04:15] Everyone is supposed to be considered enemy.
[00:04:18] I'm responsible for my men.
[00:04:20] They'll get killed if I make the wrong decision.
[00:04:22] These dinks coming toward us mean nothing to me.
[00:04:26] My men mean everything.
[00:04:29] What if the dinks aren't innocent?
[00:04:32] My men depend on me to keep them alive.
[00:04:37] I spoke softly to the men around me.
[00:04:40] It's a lick on them.
[00:04:42] When I give the order, open fire.
[00:04:45] I brought up the M16 to sight in on the dinks.
[00:04:49] Spag was standing to my right. His M60 machine gun supported on his hip by a sling around his neck and shoulder.
[00:04:56] He reached over and touched my arm.
[00:04:59] His whispered voice reflected the agony of doubt in his face.
[00:05:03] No, sir, you can't.
[00:05:06] Kids, women.
[00:05:08] He motioned toward the file of people coming towards us.
[00:05:12] I felt ashamed.
[00:05:14] Spag was right.
[00:05:17] Wait one. I whispered to the men around me.
[00:05:20] I'll call for them to surrender.
[00:05:23] I felt relieved.
[00:05:25] Capturing them was the best solution.
[00:05:27] If they were the point for a VC group,
[00:05:29] I would just make sure none of us was exposed to fire when we captured this point.
[00:05:34] The dinks were almost to the intersection.
[00:05:37] I stepped through the brush with some of my men.
[00:05:41] Dung, really? Dung, Louis, I warned. They were only 10 to 20 meters from us. They all glanced at us, standing with our weapons trained on them.
[00:05:49] We had them dead to rights. They had no cover of no place to run to.
[00:05:53] A perfect capture situation.
[00:05:56] Almost in mid-strived, they all moved with astonishing speed.
[00:06:00] The two boys in the point split up.
[00:06:03] The one ran past us heading down the trail past the schoolhouse.
[00:06:06] The other boy, the woman, the old men, started running back toward the bridge.
[00:06:10] Stop, stop, Dung, Louis. I yelled to no avail.
[00:06:14] I could not order the men to run after them. It could be a trap.
[00:06:18] Neither could I let them get away. Why would they running?
[00:06:22] In the split second, those thoughts ran across my consciousness.
[00:06:25] I gave the order to open fire.
[00:06:28] An irrevocable wave of death swept in front of us.
[00:06:31] After the initial burst of gunfire, I yelled cease fire.
[00:06:36] The two women survived long enough to cross the bridge and enter one of the hooches.
[00:06:40] Three of my men crossed over the bridge and threw grenades in the hooches.
[00:06:44] We heard lead looked over the bodies on the trail, since they were lying in the open.
[00:06:48] We had no desire to be caught exposed.
[00:06:51] The men reported that some of the dead had been carrying hand grenades in their ammo and ammo packs.
[00:06:57] I felt someone relieved. Those supplies could have been for anyone but the Kong.
[00:07:04] I received a report from the squad down the trail.
[00:07:07] The firing had alerted them, barely fast enough to fire at the teenager running toward them down the trail.
[00:07:13] Someone hit him in the shoulder and knocked him down, surprisingly the boy had jumped up and run past the squad to safety somewhere in the brush.
[00:07:21] I had no pleasure in reporting to Delta 6 that we had killed six dinks and one wounded.
[00:07:27] I knew he would ask how many weapons we had captured.
[00:07:31] I stared at the gray horizon for a long time before answering that the dinks were not carrying weapons, only supplies and grenades.
[00:07:39] I felt low. This putrid war.
[00:07:43] I thought of so many ways I could have done it differently.
[00:07:47] So easy to think afterward.
[00:07:49] After all, now I knew there was no dink squad behind on the trail.
[00:07:54] This episode would be the darkest of my career.
[00:07:58] I called my men together for a march up the slight hill to Delta 6's position, forcing the dinks out of my mind.
[00:08:11] That's from a book that we're looking at tonight.
[00:08:15] It's called the killing zone.
[00:08:17] My life in the Vietnam War by Frederick Downs.
[00:08:22] Now Vietnam, it was a hard war, obviously a wretched war for many reasons.
[00:08:31] And the Meal Eye Masterker is almost the apex, almost the pinnacle.
[00:08:36] It almost seems like the essence of the war in many respects.
[00:08:43] At least it's viewed that way.
[00:08:45] And it did have a huge strategic impact. It was devastating to the war effort.
[00:08:52] And something that should always be remembered is that tactical operations can have strategic impact.
[00:08:58] Like Hacworth said, the Meal Eye Masterker probably did more to end the war and hasten our departure from Vietnam than anything our communist enemy did.
[00:09:09] And in a similar vein, the war I was in, in the mistreatment of the prisoners in Abu Greb, prison in Iraq and the photographs that showed that mistreatment,
[00:09:19] likely did more to fuel the insurgency in that country than anything Al Qaeda did.
[00:09:26] Tactical actions can have strategic impact.
[00:09:30] And that actually happens in business too.
[00:09:32] One bad customer experience for a customer that's got some reach and there can really be a strategic impact.
[00:09:41] And what the front line troops do really does matter and what the front line troops do is based on how they are led.
[00:09:52] Clearly in Meal Eye there was a total lack of leadership,
[00:09:57] especially from the moral and ethical perspective.
[00:10:01] But this was not the norm, not by any stretch.
[00:10:08] And like I said, it's viewed sometimes as the representation of what the Vietnam war was like, but it's not.
[00:10:17] And I said this when we talked about Meal Eye, yeah America has done monstrous things in our history.
[00:10:26] But we most certainly are not monstrous.
[00:10:33] We are an amazingly benevolent nation, especially now, perhaps even to our own detriment.
[00:10:43] But that's why I wanted to talk about this book, the killing zone, to show the challenges of Vietnam war,
[00:10:50] how American troops handled those challenges and pressures on a day-to-day basis, and how they sometimes cross that line,
[00:11:00] if only for a moment.
[00:11:03] But then most of the time brought themselves back from the brink of darkness into the light.
[00:11:17] Now let's go back to the book here.
[00:11:23] Going to the beginning when Fred Downs, young lieutenant in the army, is flying in the Vietnam.
[00:11:34] At 23, 30 hours, the continental Big Bird with a Golden Tail DC8 dropped through the night sky into the landing pattern over the black landscape of Vietnam.
[00:11:44] 23 hours earlier, 165 of us had been crammed aboard the commercial jet at the airport near San Francisco.
[00:11:52] I looked around the cabin at the officer and at the officers and enlisted men who had come from all over the United States to catch his flight from San Francisco.
[00:12:01] How would they return?
[00:12:04] How would I return?
[00:12:06] I had graduated six months earlier from the US Army's OCS Program at Fort Benning, Georgia, and now I would soon to be leading men in the combat.
[00:12:15] I was 23 years old and I had been trained to lead.
[00:12:20] Physically, I thought I was ready.
[00:12:22] Mentally, I was as confident of myself as any young officer could be.
[00:12:27] But underneath my confidence, were the ever present questions, worry, and curiosity about war and my role in it.
[00:12:36] I was eagerly looking forward to finding answers.
[00:12:41] I would not have to wait long.
[00:12:45] So we've talked about that before.
[00:12:47] When you're stepping into a leadership role, you're not going to.
[00:12:51] There's a good chance you're not going to feel 100% confident.
[00:12:54] And that's okay.
[00:12:56] So he gets to Vietnam.
[00:12:59] He gets assigned to fourth division.
[00:13:02] And he actually hadn't heard of fourth division.
[00:13:05] He hadn't seen it in the papers.
[00:13:06] He kind of asked, hey, why?
[00:13:08] Why have I seen it in the papers?
[00:13:10] What are they doing?
[00:13:11] And he said, there's no reporters up there where they're working.
[00:13:13] It's too rough for him.
[00:13:15] And he's kind of saying, you know, I want to get, I want to make sure I get it on.
[00:13:20] And some of the old timers are telling him, one of them says,
[00:13:23] you'll get a belly full of fighting up there, son, if that's what you want.
[00:13:27] So it's one of those.
[00:13:29] Be careful with you wish for scenarios.
[00:13:32] And I thought this was pretty pretty interesting.
[00:13:36] You know, we talk about hack worth and the hardcore recondos
[00:13:40] as the salute and reply.
[00:13:43] The reply is no fucking slack.
[00:13:47] So here's what they had here.
[00:13:50] It was SOP to salute in the company area, but not in the field.
[00:13:54] When in the list of man saluted, he would say golden dragon sir.
[00:13:58] The officer would return the salute with right of the line.
[00:14:02] I asked about this.
[00:14:04] They told me that at that the first the 14th, that's the division he's with.
[00:14:08] The first the 14th was an old infantry regiment steeped in tradition.
[00:14:13] During the box rebellion in China, the unit had fought bravely.
[00:14:17] Afterwards they adopted the symbol of a golden dragon.
[00:14:21] The other part of the salute came from some battle in the civil war.
[00:14:25] Right before a large battle, a staff officer asked a general where to put the first to the 14th.
[00:14:31] The general had roared back, put them to the right of the line where they belong.
[00:14:36] The right of the line is where a leader traditionally puts his best men and units.
[00:14:40] This comes down through military history, when a man fought with the shield and sword.
[00:14:46] The right arm or sword arm was unprotected.
[00:14:49] The best fighter was put to the right to protect the sword arm of the man on his left.
[00:14:55] Only the most trusted and best fighters held the position to the right.
[00:15:04] Legit.
[00:15:06] So he's there in the head quarters area for a little while and then he gets his indoctrination and then gets flown out.
[00:15:15] He flies out into the field into where he's going to be operating out of.
[00:15:22] He gets up there and this is straight out of a movie right here.
[00:15:27] Bugs swarmed around my face.
[00:15:29] I swatted and looked at the men who looked right back at me.
[00:15:32] It was my first view of American GIs who had spent several days in the jungle.
[00:15:37] I stood there in sparkling crisp fatigues, brand new boots, new rifle, clean shaving, fresh haircut.
[00:15:45] I even smelled the clean.
[00:15:47] My helmet camouflage cover didn't have a mark on it nor did I.
[00:15:51] The two men opposite me were filthy.
[00:15:54] They're fatigues were torn and they had scratches all over their skin two or three days of growth on their beard and dark circles under their eyes.
[00:16:02] They looked tired and they smelled the high heaven.
[00:16:05] So that's right out of a movie.
[00:16:07] The boot, Lieutenant coming in to take over.
[00:16:09] He's in his pressed cam.
[00:16:11] He's looking all square away and these guys look like they're living in hell.
[00:16:15] And they introduced the company commander in this guy.
[00:16:20] You're going to see throughout the book.
[00:16:22] This guy captain sells was an ROTC officer 26 years old son of a father killed in Korea.
[00:16:29] So that's, you know, the guy's dad got killed in Korea and he's during the Vietnam war he's joined it up and leading men in the company.
[00:16:38] He's a company commander.
[00:16:39] And if you remember from the book, the book, the two leader, you remember he didn't even meet the company commander.
[00:16:46] So his direct boss didn't even meet him for weeks.
[00:16:49] He'd been in the field for weeks before even met him.
[00:16:51] And here's this company commander obviously much more square away.
[00:16:55] Walks him around.
[00:16:56] The introduces and everybody's giving him a heads up.
[00:16:59] You know, this is the way it's supposed to be.
[00:17:01] And, you know, he's getting told, look, there's enemy all around.
[00:17:05] And you might have heard in that intro piece that I read.
[00:17:07] I was talking about Delta 6 and here's a little piece about that.
[00:17:11] He informed me that his radio signal was Delta 6.
[00:17:14] So that's the Delta company commander's Delta 6.
[00:17:16] Lieutenant smart, the first, but two leader was Delta 1 6.
[00:17:20] The second, but two leader was Delta 2 6.
[00:17:23] This is what the commanders of the unit.
[00:17:26] And this is a tradition that holds true in the army and the Marine Corps today.
[00:17:29] And it's pretty cool when you're in the field.
[00:17:32] You'd hear someone call for the six.
[00:17:35] And that means we want to talk to the guys that's in charge out there.
[00:17:38] Their seconds of command were known as Fives.
[00:17:40] For instance, Delta 1 5 was the first Petune Sergeant.
[00:17:44] And this is, you know, goes on to talk a little bit more about Captain Cells,
[00:17:47] who's asking about his family.
[00:17:49] He's getting to know him.
[00:17:50] He's got a little bit of a down's hat.
[00:17:54] I had a wife and two little girls back in Illinois.
[00:17:56] And so again, you're getting an impression that Cells is a guy that's trying to get to know his people and learn about him, which is the way a leader.
[00:18:03] What a leader should be doing.
[00:18:06] Now these guys are out.
[00:18:08] And he's talking again.
[00:18:11] This is something straight out of a straight out of a movie.
[00:18:15] Darkness quickly engulfed us.
[00:18:17] Watched in astonishment as I pulled out mosquito netting and spread it over my poncho liner and air mattress.
[00:18:23] They were a gas that I carried so much extra weight.
[00:18:26] No, I answered, this is all the good stuff.
[00:18:29] Their amazement grew as I revealed three changes of underwear and fatigued clothes.
[00:18:34] Wait until the next day they scoffed when the sun and heavy pack will drag me down.
[00:18:40] The jungle would exact a toll for every outside carried.
[00:18:43] We'll see, I answered.
[00:18:46] Not a good answer.
[00:18:48] Lieutenant smart said, yeah, you'll see.
[00:18:51] You'll see that the only change to clothes your carias and being an extra pair of socks.
[00:18:55] You'll learn to live in one set of jungle fatigues until they rot off you or rip too badly to wear.
[00:19:01] That actually reminds me when we were in my first deployment to Iraq, we had three sets of camis and just warm, rotated them.
[00:19:11] In Ramadi, the uptempo was so high and the conditions of fighting.
[00:19:16] We had to order new camis within a couple weeks of being their guys had destroyed.
[00:19:22] Camis could run across the street, they're getting, you know, dragging people and they were just ruining their their camis.
[00:19:28] So that was another indicator in Ramadi that we were in a totally different scenario than I was on my first deployment to Iraq.
[00:19:37] Back to the book.
[00:19:39] My first days on combat control combat patrol introduced me to the visitutes of war.
[00:19:43] Ten foot deep, pungy pits.
[00:19:46] Wait a minute vines that collected around the feet and legs until their combined strength stopped you and you had to say, wait a minute while you untangled or cut yourself loose.
[00:19:54] The hot sun beating down us on us as we march around with 70 pound packs.
[00:19:59] The sweat pouring office, the bugs so thick are faces that around our faces that we sometimes inhaled them.
[00:20:06] That and the physical agony of forcing tired muscles to keep going.
[00:20:11] It was a search and destroy mission which meant we searched all the hooches we found and then burned them down.
[00:20:17] Whether a single farmer's hooch or a whole village all were burnt.
[00:20:21] The few Vietnamese we found in the area were women, children, and old men who had been left behind.
[00:20:26] When we started to burn their particular hooch, they would start wailing, crying and pulling in our clothes.
[00:20:32] We didn't harm the people, but the orders were to destroy all the dwellings so we did.
[00:20:37] The first time I saw a Vietnamese family going to hysterics when their hooch was set on fire, I was unsure of whether burning their home would accomplish our mission.
[00:20:47] The mission was to deny the enemy use of the hooches to destroy any food we found and to teach the people a lesson about supporting the enemy.
[00:20:54] But I quickly got used to it and accepted that this was one way to win the war.
[00:21:01] And that's, if you talk to anybody, anybody knowledgeable about true counter insurgency, this is not a great plan to go in and basically abuse the populist.
[00:21:13] Now if you know that they're supporting the insurgence, sure you want to disrupt that.
[00:21:20] But oftentimes they're not supporting the insurgence because they want to, they're supporting the insurgence because they're fearful of the lives.
[00:21:28] That's the way it was in Iraq when I was there.
[00:21:33] So back to the book, Sholden Brand took the opportunity later that day to explain in this unit everyone called the enemy and ultimately all outsiders dinks.
[00:21:46] So that's their word that they use.
[00:21:48] And I found this interesting. He says, ultimately all outsiders and you've revert me and you've heard lay from in the book, we talk about moves.
[00:21:55] That's what we call the enemy, we call the enemy moves. But what's interesting is here it says all outsiders and that's exactly what we did.
[00:22:02] If when we were getting resistance from, you know, up the chain of command down the chain of command, guess what we call them.
[00:22:09] Moosh, we'd say all the bosses saying this can't believe that moves. So it became the word that we used to, to all outsiders.
[00:22:16] And that's that's the unit cohesion and there's some dehumanization of the enemy there obviously.
[00:22:23] But the fact that you end up using the same slang word to describe anybody that's against you is is is is interesting.
[00:22:32] Back to the book, it turned out that the enemy started calling us dinks first because it was an insulting or demeaning term that meant hairy man from the jungle.
[00:22:40] We had just turned the word around and started calling them dinks. At least that was the story.
[00:22:45] I don't know if that's true or not. I never never read didn't do any research on that one.
[00:22:50] I saw the face of the enemy for the first time. He'd been machine gunned down by one of our gun crews. The powerful weapon in throwing a halo bullets in the brush where we had spotted him.
[00:22:59] When we got to his position, I saw for the first time the death of a soldier. The machine gun crew had done a good job.
[00:23:05] The young soldiers, green combat uniform body was riddled with bullets. He was sprawled across his bicycle with his face toward the sky.
[00:23:13] And last I had before me the enemy had been trained to destroy. He was a young man for whom the war and life had ended.
[00:23:22] One evening a jet was returning to base and needed a target to get rid of his unexpected bomb load.
[00:23:27] The captain called the forward air controller and gave him the coordinates of a sniper 300 meters away who'd been pestering us off and on for three days.
[00:23:36] As the jet pulled up after dropping the sniper's position, we could hear the pop pop of the sniper firing at the jet.
[00:23:43] The men talked about the goal of that sniper as I watched the Napalm burn itself out.
[00:23:48] I wondered what would drive a man to stand up to death in so remarkable manner.
[00:23:57] Again you're dealing with a hardened enemy. You're getting Napalm dropped on your position.
[00:24:02] And as you burn to death, you're trying to shoot down a jet fighter.
[00:24:09] Back to the book, Shaldenbrand was worth his weight and gold to me in running that platoon.
[00:24:15] He even introduced me to the platoon motto. It's a lick.
[00:24:20] A lick is a lick on a young man's ass lieutenant.
[00:24:23] You remember when you were a kid and you did something wrong or something got fucked up that you got the blame for?
[00:24:29] The old man would give you a lick in with a switch or a belt?
[00:24:32] Yeah, I sure remember getting lickings.
[00:24:35] Well when something goes wrong, it's a lick on you. You see anything that goes wrong will give you a lick.
[00:24:40] And over here you'll get plenty of licks.
[00:24:43] My RTO was the other most important man to the platoon.
[00:24:47] His job was carried the radio and stick to me like a shadow.
[00:24:50] The radio was our link with literally everything outside our platoon from supplies to survival.
[00:24:56] Without a working radio and a good RTO, a platoon leader and the platoon was good as lost in this war.
[00:25:02] My RTO man, a skinny kid, five feet 11 inches tall, was next to perfect for his job.
[00:25:09] He loved to know what was going on and his job was akin to the central switchboard operators.
[00:25:15] So that's the RTO. That was actually when I was an enlisted seal. That's what I was.
[00:25:21] I always had that same attitude. When you're the RTO, you always know what's going on.
[00:25:26] Because the officer's telling you you're right next to him, you're listening to what he's saying to you always know what's going on.
[00:25:31] And that was a real good education for me.
[00:25:34] Growing my whole career always being next to the guy that was running the platoon.
[00:25:40] Talking a little bit about the troops here.
[00:25:42] My squad leaders were first squad, Delcatol Cowboy type from Wyoming, second squad porter, a slightly built black from East St. Louis.
[00:25:50] Third squad Jose, a skinny, short, swarthey port, Recon, fourth squad Gallagher, a medium built redhead from New England states.
[00:25:58] And of course, there was the platoon medic dock.
[00:26:02] The platoon make-up was white, black's port, Recon's Mexicans, Americans and in Indian.
[00:26:09] And a Japanese American. All of them from 18 to 21 years old.
[00:26:13] In a combat platoon, we were evaluated by our peers on our ability to help the platoon survive and not on our racial movement.
[00:26:19] And not on our racial backgrounds.
[00:26:21] A combat platoon pulled together and was tight with each other with no room for the soldier who wouldn't do his share.
[00:26:28] So it's always good to just point that out.
[00:26:31] These are just people from across section of America.
[00:26:33] And these are pretty stereotypical, right?
[00:26:35] Cowboy from Wyoming.
[00:26:36] This is stereotypical stuff.
[00:26:39] And that's one thing that the military says.
[00:26:42] So when I joined, I grew up in New England, right?
[00:26:45] When I joined the Navy and I got to California.
[00:26:49] And I went to the enlisted man's club on NAB Coronado, the Gator Gardens back in the day.
[00:26:57] I was 18 years old, and I showed up, you know, because there's a club.
[00:27:04] So it's a club on base, right?
[00:27:06] And so I go, I'm going to go there.
[00:27:09] People say, hey, we're going to go to the club.
[00:27:11] So I go, okay, well, let's go see what's going on there.
[00:27:13] So I walk over the club.
[00:27:15] And as I'm kind of standing outside, I see two guys walk by with with jeans on with cowboy boots,
[00:27:22] with big belt buckles and cowboy hats and like a Wrangler shirt.
[00:27:26] And I was kind of thinking myself, oh, that's there.
[00:27:28] Is there some kind of, is it Halloween?
[00:27:30] Is that these guys getting dressed up for something?
[00:27:32] And again, this is pre-internet, man.
[00:27:35] I mean, and, and, and then I see a couple more guys going to turn out.
[00:27:39] It was countrywester night, but at the club that you went.
[00:27:42] I had never seen a person in, you know, I come from a small town in Connecticut.
[00:27:50] And there's, there's just no cowboys up there.
[00:27:55] And in, and interestingly, there's farms and there's people that raise cattle and there's people that grow,
[00:27:59] you know, have, have farms, but they don't have cowboy boots.
[00:28:04] And they don't want a cowboy hats.
[00:28:06] And so it's just, that's what I was thinking about when I read this is just how you take all these
[00:28:11] different people from all of this, but they had no idea.
[00:28:14] You have no idea what other people are like.
[00:28:16] And again, this is pre-internet.
[00:28:18] You know, when I joined the Navy, we didn't get to Google.
[00:28:21] We didn't watch YouTube videos because you're exposed the entire planet and, and galaxy through YouTube.
[00:28:28] Hmm.
[00:28:30] First time you saw a real cowboy, huh?
[00:28:34] Hmm.
[00:28:35] It is.
[00:28:36] I thought, I thought they were, I thought they were dressed up.
[00:28:39] Yeah.
[00:28:42] It is kind of crazy.
[00:28:45] And then, you know, I ended up, I mean, in, in, in, in, to you, brooder, we had all kinds of guys from Texas.
[00:28:52] And there's all kinds of cowboys down in Texas.
[00:28:55] Uh, but like, I'm in Chris, Chris Kyle was like a legit, whatever, rodeo, dude in life.
[00:29:01] Laced a cowboy.
[00:29:02] Laced an absolute cowboy.
[00:29:03] Yeah, absolutely.
[00:29:05] I mean, there's all kinds of cowboys in there.
[00:29:08] So, uh, now we, we're going to advance a little bit.
[00:29:12] This is the first time that that downs is actually in charge.
[00:29:17] Um, he did a little turnover with the, with the former Patoon commander.
[00:29:20] He takes charge of Patoon.
[00:29:22] And he's doing security for the bridges for some bridges that are out kind of away from the main camp.
[00:29:29] And they're out there to prevent landmines and gather intel and kind of set up a checkpoint.
[00:29:34] And, and they're, they're, they're actually staying out there. So they would, they would set up by these bridges.
[00:29:39] And as they're getting set up for the first time, I'm going to the book.
[00:29:43] In explosion, rip the air behind me, fall immediately by a scream.
[00:29:47] My body instinctively threw myself against the sandbags, is my mind shouted, morder attack.
[00:29:52] My eyes register the scene of men frozen and shocked Wonderman.
[00:29:57] Their eyes staring behind me.
[00:29:59] Man was directly in front of me.
[00:30:01] And the track man were off in the background, crouching where they,
[00:30:06] where they were when the explosions went off.
[00:30:08] So they're actually out there with some tracked vehicles.
[00:30:11] Quickly turning around, my eyes swept an awful catastrophe.
[00:30:15] One of the claimors had gone off shattering for over the lives of the three men in front of it.
[00:30:21] Jesus Christ, was it a murder?
[00:30:23] No, one of our claimors went off.
[00:30:25] Get those men quick.
[00:30:26] No, no, no, wait.
[00:30:27] There's another claimor out there.
[00:30:28] What the fuck said it off?
[00:30:30] What about the other one?
[00:30:31] So imagine this.
[00:30:34] You get to a position and you want to put out claimor minds.
[00:30:38] And if you don't know what a claimor mind is, it's a, it's a directional blasting mind that you set off by command detonations.
[00:30:47] So you have a little, a little thing that you squeeze.
[00:30:50] And when you squeeze this thing, it sends electrical charge down the wire into the claimor,
[00:30:53] detonates a blasting cap, the, the claimor explodes and everything in front of it's going to die.
[00:30:58] Well, they had set up the claimors and then they were going to put some barbed wire out.
[00:31:04] And as they were putting the barbed wire out, there was a storm, electrical storm, you know,
[00:31:11] a thunderstorm and the static electricity in the air actually set off the claimor.
[00:31:17] So it killed or it, it did some serious damage.
[00:31:21] Back to the book.
[00:31:22] Only a few seconds had passed since the explosion.
[00:31:24] One of my men and I dashed to the other claimor, frantically fumbling on screwing the plug and holding the basting cap,
[00:31:29] throwing it away from the claimor.
[00:31:30] Then I rushed back to the radio.
[00:31:32] Two men were applying first aid.
[00:31:34] The other positions were covered by the men assigned to them.
[00:31:36] They had stayed in place during the action.
[00:31:38] Good training.
[00:31:39] I thought as I fumbled with my map.
[00:31:40] It was folded into plastic radio bag.
[00:31:42] All of us used to carry maps in.
[00:31:44] Delta six.
[00:31:45] This is one six over one six.
[00:31:47] This is Delta six over.
[00:31:48] This is one six.
[00:31:49] I need dust off.
[00:31:50] There's been an accident resulting in three peanuts over.
[00:31:53] We tried to say nothing over the radio that could be understood by the enemy.
[00:31:56] Thus, we used code words for certain things.
[00:31:58] A cool aid was a dead soldier and a peanut was a wounded soldier.
[00:32:02] This is Delta six.
[00:32:04] What the hell happened over?
[00:32:06] This is one six.
[00:32:07] Static electricity in the air set off a claimor while three trackmen were putting out barbed wire over.
[00:32:12] This is Delta six.
[00:32:13] What's your position?
[00:32:14] Over.
[00:32:15] Now what would he ask me that for?
[00:32:17] I was on the bridge he'd assigned to me.
[00:32:19] Let's see.
[00:32:20] We're here.
[00:32:21] I read right enough.
[00:32:22] Real easy.
[00:32:23] Just like all the training.
[00:32:24] So he's looking at his map.
[00:32:25] Try to figure out where he is.
[00:32:26] Of course, that was my first responsibility.
[00:32:28] Where a men had been hurt.
[00:32:29] So maybe that accounted for what happened next in spite of training.
[00:32:33] Lieutenant Lieutenant.
[00:32:34] You've got to get a dust off out here quick.
[00:32:36] This man's got a bad head wound.
[00:32:38] Said one soldier as they brought the wounded over me.
[00:32:40] Dirty black clouds with lightning crashing around.
[00:32:43] Added the confusion as the wind howled over from all directions.
[00:32:46] Huge range drops started to spatter down.
[00:32:49] This is one six.
[00:32:50] I'm at coordinates two nine eight zero two eight over.
[00:32:54] I read them out.
[00:32:55] This is Delta six.
[00:32:56] Are you sure of that over?
[00:32:58] This is one six.
[00:32:59] Let's see.
[00:33:00] Yeah.
[00:33:01] It's that's it.
[00:33:02] All right.
[00:33:03] There.
[00:33:04] One six.
[00:33:04] You better check that again.
[00:33:05] According to what you gave me.
[00:33:06] You're in the South China Sea over.
[00:33:08] Oh, did he sound mad?
[00:33:10] God damn.
[00:33:11] I've done this a million times.
[00:33:12] The fought ran through my mind as a sweat broke out.
[00:33:14] The wounded were groaning.
[00:33:15] The storm was reaching gigantic proportions.
[00:33:17] And the track sergeant was demanding.
[00:33:19] And nowhere that fuck that dust off was concentrate.
[00:33:23] Front concentrate.
[00:33:24] I said to myself while staring at the meaningless blob of colors,
[00:33:27] worlds and numbers.
[00:33:28] So he's looking at his map.
[00:33:29] It's just trying to figure it out.
[00:33:30] Suddenly everything jelled in perfect clarity.
[00:33:32] Delta six is one six.
[00:33:34] You're right.
[00:33:35] My coordinates are two eight eight zero two eight.
[00:33:38] I needed dust off fast over.
[00:33:41] One six.
[00:33:42] This is Delta six.
[00:33:43] I know where you are.
[00:33:44] I just wanted to see if you could figure it out.
[00:33:46] I already called the dust off.
[00:33:48] So cap and cells.
[00:33:51] This that's who he was talking to.
[00:33:52] Captain cells.
[00:33:53] That's that's Delta six.
[00:33:54] The commander of the company.
[00:33:56] And even in this pressure situation.
[00:33:58] He's trying to make sure that the guy is thinking.
[00:34:01] He's in the opportunity to think for the first time under pressure.
[00:34:04] And he already called the dust off.
[00:34:06] But he's still putting the test to him and seeing how he operates under that kind of stress and pressure.
[00:34:12] Another following situation.
[00:34:15] They're kind of sitting in this location and they see a woman start to start to approach where they had some some equipment.
[00:34:23] And she was look like she was going to steal some stuff.
[00:34:26] And you know, it's kind of no big deal.
[00:34:28] Okay.
[00:34:29] She's going to steal some whatever some ponchos or something.
[00:34:31] Well, then they see her what she picks up as a case of grenades.
[00:34:35] And they're thinking.
[00:34:37] Wait a second.
[00:34:38] Now this just got really bad because if she was stealing a poncho, okay.
[00:34:41] No big deal.
[00:34:42] She's stealing grenades. That's stuff that's going to be used to come back and kill them.
[00:34:47] But again, because we have a guy with a with a conscience, you know, a guy that sees where the line of darkness is and he doesn't want to cross it.
[00:34:57] So instead of just shooting her, which he could have done.
[00:35:01] He loads a magazine of trace around, sent to his end to his weapon.
[00:35:05] And he starts shooting him around her kind of warning shots.
[00:35:09] And then eventually start shooting. He's a good shot.
[00:35:12] He starts shooting at the little rope that holds the case that she's holding onto.
[00:35:17] He starts shooting at that rope.
[00:35:19] Shoot at it like five or six time.
[00:35:20] Finally hits the rope kind of hits her hand.
[00:35:22] She drops it.
[00:35:23] She runs off again.
[00:35:26] Just trying to show the discretion that this guy's using as a real contrast to the me lie episode.
[00:35:34] Now speaking of that, they've little later on.
[00:35:39] They roll up some prisoners.
[00:35:42] One is an old man and one is a young man.
[00:35:46] And this old gray-haired sergeant starts going after him.
[00:35:51] They got these two prisoners. They're captured.
[00:35:54] And here's the sergeant.
[00:35:56] So you're the fuckers that zap my buddies in the tank.
[00:35:59] The old gray-haired sergeant snarled.
[00:36:01] And the old man was running. He swung a heavy fist into the face of the old man knocking him down.
[00:36:05] The other fist swung into the face of the younger man knocking him down beside the old man.
[00:36:09] The sergeant was screaming and bellowing as he pummeled the two men on the sand.
[00:36:12] They rolled into balls for protection, but were hampered by their tied hands.
[00:36:16] I ran from the road yelling my two men to pull the sergeant off the prisoners.
[00:36:20] They grabbed him by his soldiers as he fought them to get back to the Vietnamese.
[00:36:24] He lashed out with his foot at the prisoners, catching one of them in the side.
[00:36:27] And the hell are you doing, sergeant? Those men are my prisoners I exclaimed.
[00:36:31] His face was red with fury as he yelled back at me.
[00:36:34] You had no right to take those stinking, cong prisoners.
[00:36:37] He smelled of beer that he had drunk.
[00:36:40] You should have killed those motherfuckers like they killed that other tank crew.
[00:36:44] Fuck! These men are tied up. We don't know who they are. I yelled back.
[00:36:48] I was saved by the sound of Lieutenant Knut, Knutson's voice breaking over the argument.
[00:36:52] Calm down, sergeant. Go back to your tent.
[00:36:55] The Lieutenant was the commander of the tanks. Again,
[00:36:59] I'm pointing this out. He's new in country. He sees somebody beat Napa Prisoner.
[00:37:04] They had just lost one of the tanks to a mine earlier.
[00:37:08] And obviously the gray-haired sergeant's pissed.
[00:37:11] And he wants to take it out on these guys.
[00:37:14] But, you know, comers, cooler heads prevailed in that situation.
[00:37:22] Now speaking of mines, mines back to the book mines continue to be laid in the road at irregular intervals.
[00:37:28] It was a fact of life, but the terror of an explosion never failed to send a shiver through our guts no matter how many times we heard them.
[00:37:35] Whatever we were doing our heads would jerk around.
[00:37:38] It was a terrifying to hear the explosion.
[00:37:40] CD ugly gray and black crowd clout as it ripped into the air.
[00:37:44] CDark pieces of metal can't this machinery and human beings flying in the blossom of death out from the center of destruction.
[00:37:51] And this one big mine happens.
[00:37:56] And he's going to check it out. It's a truck. It's a vehicle.
[00:37:59] I approached the twisted wreck. It was very disheartening to see the smoking wreck,
[00:38:04] which had once been the carrier of human beings.
[00:38:07] There were less smoke drifting upward from the Hulk.
[00:38:10] As we approached closer, we saw parts of the driver's body mangled beyond recognition in the cabin on the ground.
[00:38:17] The main portion of the driver was only recognizable because we knew that was what it was supposed to be.
[00:38:25] My man ran toward the still living being huddled in the rice paddy, muleing over and over that his leg was gone.
[00:38:32] The scene of desolation brought about the true impact of the Vietnam War to me.
[00:38:38] There was no enemy to fire at. There was no nothing to retaliate against.
[00:38:45] At a distance, the traffic of vehicles and Vietnamese watched.
[00:38:52] All that remained was the messy job of cleaning up while thinking that this could happen to us.
[00:38:57] A small part of our mind tried to retain its sanity by reminding itself over and over.
[00:39:03] That it would never happen to us. It could happen to everyone else, but it would not happen to me.
[00:39:09] With that in mind, we started scraping up what was left, preparing it for the plastic body bag.
[00:39:24] Eventually, they go from guarding the bridges to where they start doing patrols out in the jungle.
[00:39:34] An ambush is out in the jungle and direct action missions out in the jungle.
[00:39:39] At this point, they're out in the jungle.
[00:39:42] I'll go to the book. My platoon and I had not shaved for three or four days.
[00:39:48] Delta 6 was a bear about shaving.
[00:39:51] Combat patrol or not.
[00:39:53] Just because we lived like animals didn't mean we had to look like them.
[00:39:56] It was his way of thinking.
[00:39:58] Throwing my fatigue jacket across a bush, I grabbed my shaving gear and told Spag and Viseanor to accompany me.
[00:40:05] We would guard each other as we shaved.
[00:40:07] The company commanders coming out and they're on a shaving.
[00:40:10] They're like, okay, we got a shave real quick.
[00:40:13] But again, you can see that Captain Selz has a real influence.
[00:40:18] And you can see that discipline.
[00:40:22] It's carries over.
[00:40:24] And when you let it slack and then you go visit your troops and they have to get back in line.
[00:40:28] It brings them back to humanity.
[00:40:29] It makes them remind them of things.
[00:40:30] Because think about it.
[00:40:32] That shaving is something you do in the military every single day.
[00:40:35] So when all of a sudden you're out in the field, you start losing that.
[00:40:38] You start slipping away from that.
[00:40:40] And things start other things start slipping away as well.
[00:40:45] They get into a, they get into some fire fights out there.
[00:40:51] And at one point he gets wounded and I'm going to the book.
[00:40:55] After homes had finished bandaging my arm.
[00:40:58] I put on my fatigue jacket and let a cigarette.
[00:41:01] I felt good.
[00:41:02] I had only been in country a few months and I had my second purple heart.
[00:41:06] The first one had been from a wound received in October.
[00:41:10] To top it off, I had been wounded twice in one day.
[00:41:12] Shot in the ear in the morning and hit with a grenade trapping on the afternoon.
[00:41:16] Luck was with me.
[00:41:17] All three wounds had been slight.
[00:41:21] Now you can say luck when you get shot in the ear.
[00:41:25] And you are lucky for sure.
[00:41:27] But that's a real, that's a real eye opener indicating that you realize how close you were to die.
[00:41:35] And I had guys get shot in the helmet and they didn't like it one bit.
[00:41:41] Because that's real close.
[00:41:43] Someone got real close to getting you.
[00:41:46] Now going forward more, there's a battle going on and the companies out in the field.
[00:41:56] And they're not directly involved in the battle.
[00:41:59] So they get told, okay, you want you to go set up where the VC is going to run to.
[00:42:05] Where we think they're going to run.
[00:42:06] You guys set up a blocking force so that way when the VC runs into you, you ambush them and take them out.
[00:42:11] So they're kind of maneuvering to go set that up.
[00:42:13] His普通 is maneuvering to set that up and we're going to book after 15 minutes or so.
[00:42:18] We were approximately halfway down the ridge.
[00:42:20] The captain gave me a call.
[00:42:22] Dragon six had decided it would be better if I have to my普通 marching the two elements in opposite directions in order to cover a larger area.
[00:42:29] I was dead set against this.
[00:42:32] My普通 was below strength and dividing it would be asking two reinforced rifle squads to defend hundreds of acres of jungle against a foe of unknown size.
[00:42:42] So dragon six is above the company commander.
[00:42:45] This is now the battalion commander.
[00:42:47] And so now you're getting an order from the battalion commander.
[00:42:50] So it's, you know, you're a young lieutenant,
[00:42:52] a platoon commander and you're getting told to do this and he doesn't feel good about it.
[00:42:57] Back to the book.
[00:42:59] But orders were orders, especially from dragon six.
[00:43:02] I passed back the word for Shalden brand to come up.
[00:43:06] I was pouring over my map and compass when Shalden brand reached me.
[00:43:09] The battle was full, full blown.
[00:43:12] It sound, it sound provided background noise.
[00:43:15] It's a brief shelly on the situation and our orders.
[00:43:18] Shit, I don't like it sir.
[00:43:20] I know I don't either, but it's a lick.
[00:43:22] You got your map and compass.
[00:43:24] Good.
[00:43:25] So it's all kinds of reasons why they don't like this idea.
[00:43:30] Obviously one that he already stated was that, you know, you take your platoon and you cut him in half.
[00:43:37] That's, that's just, you don't have the same fighting capability at all.
[00:43:42] I think they had one one heavy machine gun in each squad.
[00:43:45] So now you got basically their down to two squads because they were under strength.
[00:43:49] So we're talking one heavy machine gun.
[00:43:51] And by the way, if somebody gets wounded, you know, you got your wounded guy.
[00:43:55] And if you're going to carry that guy, it takes two or three guys to carry the guy.
[00:43:58] So that's four guys gone.
[00:43:59] So you could very easily be outnumbered outman and outgun by the enemy.
[00:44:04] So he doesn't like this idea on top of that.
[00:44:06] I will tell you, he doesn't talk about it here.
[00:44:08] When you split up in a situation like this, it becomes very difficult to do command and control.
[00:44:13] And now you got two elements that are weaker size and you're no longer able to support each other.
[00:44:19] That's the premise of cover move.
[00:44:21] Cover move means you want to be close enough that you could support each other.
[00:44:24] You don't want to split far apart where you can't help each other or something happens.
[00:44:28] Well, that's what they're getting told to do.
[00:44:30] They don't like it.
[00:44:32] And, but they do it.
[00:44:34] And maybe he should have protested more, but he's getting orders from the battalion commander.
[00:44:39] And he says, okay, let's do it.
[00:44:41] And of course, within a couple minutes of doing it, they lose radio contact.
[00:44:47] So now they can't, they can't hear each other and they're starting to march apart.
[00:44:51] Finally, they get radio, they get connected on the radio again.
[00:44:55] They get comms again.
[00:44:57] And it sounds like this.
[00:44:59] One five.
[00:45:00] This is one six.
[00:45:01] Have you figured out where you are yet?
[00:45:02] This is one five.
[00:45:04] Negative.
[00:45:05] So Shelley with his squad is lost.
[00:45:08] Doesn't know where he is.
[00:45:10] Okay.
[00:45:11] Now, the lieutenant's all set up, though.
[00:45:14] They're in their position where they're thinking the enemy might come by.
[00:45:17] They're set up to attack them.
[00:45:20] And here we go back to the book.
[00:45:22] Lieutenant, Porter whispered as he reached my side.
[00:45:25] We hear noises to our front.
[00:45:27] Commander moving across in front of us in the jungle, hold on a second, Porter.
[00:45:32] One five.
[00:45:33] This is one six.
[00:45:34] The sound of the battle should be on your right.
[00:45:36] If you're going in the right direction, where are the sounds over?
[00:45:39] This is one five.
[00:45:41] Negative on the right.
[00:45:42] The sounds are on the left over.
[00:45:44] One five.
[00:45:46] Did you just say the sounds are on your left?
[00:45:48] I was squeezing the handsets so hard my knuckles were white.
[00:45:51] Affirmative.
[00:45:52] Jesus Christ.
[00:45:53] One five.
[00:45:54] I hosted whispered intensely.
[00:45:55] Into the mouthpiece, you're heading in our direction.
[00:45:59] I could hear the sounds of men moving through the jungle below us.
[00:46:02] I whispered the Porter.
[00:46:03] Get back down there and tell them to hold their fire.
[00:46:06] That may not be thanks after all.
[00:46:08] Hurry.
[00:46:09] Porter had heard the conversation with Shelley and quickly turned to our to carry out at my order.
[00:46:14] He couldn't yell because the sounds were coming from the dink soldiers.
[00:46:17] His yell would put us in jeopardy.
[00:46:19] As Porter started toward the crew, the machine gun crew opened fire.
[00:46:24] The harshness of the guns multiple explosions ripped across my thoughts as it sound echoed through the handset I was holding next to my ear.
[00:46:32] The sound of American swearing and screaming rebounded from the jungle below and from my handset.
[00:46:38] Sees fire.
[00:46:39] Sees fire.
[00:46:40] I screamed.
[00:46:40] Sees fire.
[00:46:41] So he can actually hear his guys getting shot by his own guys.
[00:46:46] We have a blue one blue.
[00:46:48] Porter and I were running to the gun crew both of us yelling.
[00:46:50] Sees fire.
[00:46:51] Sees fire.
[00:46:52] The sound of their gun blanketing the screams in front of them.
[00:46:55] A abruptly the gun quit firing.
[00:46:58] I yelled into the jungle.
[00:46:59] Shelley, is that you?
[00:47:00] Yes, yes.
[00:47:01] Stop firing.
[00:47:02] Don't fire.
[00:47:03] I was answered by many voices.
[00:47:05] I stood there and instant.
[00:47:07] The horrible realization that I had fired on my own men's swept over me like a wave from an ice cold hell.
[00:47:16] The gun crew looked at me.
[00:47:18] Their faces filled with shock.
[00:47:20] I ran leaping and falling down to the brush line where my men were asking the question to anybody hit for Christ's sake.
[00:47:26] Gallagher yelled back as I burst into a small clearing.
[00:47:29] One man, the point man.
[00:47:32] So there you go.
[00:47:34] Blue on blue.
[00:47:35] Another reason why if you don't have to separate your forces you don't.
[00:47:40] You don't separate your forces unless you have to.
[00:47:43] And when you do it you do with extreme caution.
[00:47:46] And when we've we've we've we've we've we've we've we've we've we've we've we've talked about blue on blue it happens and always books it happens in my book and some of these descriptions right here.
[00:47:55] I recognize those 100% when he says the horrible realization that fired on my own men swept over me like a wave from an ice cold hell.
[00:48:02] Yeah, I totally recognize that and the fact that he says the gun crew looked at me their faces filled with shock when I when I explained to my guys in the field like that was a blue on blue their faces were just complete shock.
[00:48:15] If you're in the military if you're in law enforcement be very careful when you split your forces.
[00:48:25] It's if it just multiplies the challenges sometimes it is necessary but you got to keep control over it.
[00:48:33] And now we go to where he's calling for a met a back for his for his wounded guy.
[00:48:40] Delta six is one six over this is Delta six over this is one six.
[00:48:44] I need to dust off for a peanut we've run into a little action over this is Delta six what do you mean a little action what's going on what happened over.
[00:48:52] My knees felt weak in my stomach with sour.
[00:48:56] This is one six we had a little difficulty with with with the terrain and.
[00:49:02] I ambushed one five over what how the fuck did you do that one six you mean you ambushed your own men what kind of after you running up there.
[00:49:11] That's the most ass-night thing I've ever heard of you get your head out of your ass one six and get that between straightened up you got that over.
[00:49:17] This is one six affirmative over.
[00:49:21] Ah one six give me your coordinates the dust off saw this way how bad is your peanuts over this is one six not too bad he'll lose a couple of toes but everybody else is okay over.
[00:49:31] All right one six settled down out.
[00:49:35] He was more gentle with the last transmission because I'm sure he heard my voice showed the strain I was feeling whatever the reason I welcome the sound of his voice.
[00:49:45] Perhaps he understood better than I thought what had happened.
[00:49:49] So he comes out and real hard.
[00:49:51] He realizes that the guy feels horrible and and and then he kind of backs off and says set along he also knows he's got to stay in the game.
[00:49:59] And there's a nightmare of a video on YouTube of and there's actually it's from a documentary but there was a really bad blue on blue in the first Gulf War where a patchy gun ship let it lit up.
[00:50:11] I think it was a Bradley some kind of APC it's a nightmare but you can hear the one guy that fired.
[00:50:19] They're saying hey you got to get back in position you know hold the line basically and he's like I just killed my own guys I want to come back in there they're saying negative.
[00:50:27] And so that's basically what this what Captain Cells is doing here saying hey listen okay I'm pissed but guess what calm down.
[00:50:35] Settle down get you shit together and he says out and and by the way for those folks that aren't military.
[00:50:43] Over when you say over at the end of a transmission on the radio it means you expect a reply.
[00:50:49] When you say out there's no reply expected so like when we end this podcast I say out because it's over there do you don't don't don't.
[00:50:56] Don't don't don't say anything back to me it's over I don't say over and sometimes you'll hear people say over and out in the military that doesn't you don't say that it doesn't make any sense.
[00:51:05] So when you hear that in a movie know that they know that they are cheesy.
[00:51:10] Is that kind of like when you when they hang up the phone on the movie you go to and hear the dialto.
[00:51:16] Yes that doesn't really happen either.
[00:51:19] I trudged back back to the book I trudged back to my position one five in his men following man handed me a.
[00:51:26] A can of coffee I changed smoke my cigarettes and drank coffee while the patron expanded into a larger perimeter.
[00:51:32] I stood facing the mountain the battle still raging on one five walked over to me still shaken from his experience.
[00:51:39] He told me how he was sorry that he had gotten me in such a Dutch with a captain and we discussed the operation going over his mistake while he attempted to figure out ways.
[00:51:47] To keep it from happening again if we were ever split up.
[00:51:50] Shelley and I had been through too much together for me to blame him for what had happened.
[00:51:54] I told him so and we let it go at that we had been lucky.
[00:51:58] Besides I blamed myself for what had happened.
[00:52:02] The responsibility for any unit actions ultimately rests with its commander.
[00:52:07] The leader got the glory when things worked out and he took the blame when they didn't.
[00:52:14] That went with the job when it came right down to it the men were my responsibility and I had failed them today.
[00:52:25] A little bit of extreme ownership if you read the book extreme ownership that lay for and I wrote the opening chapter that's what it's about.
[00:52:32] Blue on blue and doing exactly what what lieutenant down did right there taking ownership of what the mistakes were made in the battlefield.
[00:52:43] Back to the book there's a couple of got well actually not yet there they link up with another with another platoon and now there have an conversation.
[00:52:54] Downs is having a conversation with another officer named Anderson a drink was lying next to us as we talked.
[00:53:01] He had a black ace of spades stuck onto his fist.
[00:53:04] Anderson what's that all about that's so the dinks know what outfit fucked them up over here look around most of the dinks got those in their hands sure enough the dinks were all holding an ace of spades.
[00:53:16] That's a good idea but where did you get all the aces one of the guys moms works in a card store so he wrote home asking to send her a couple packs of nothing but aces spades.
[00:53:25] Why did we want to kill dinks.
[00:53:29] After all we had mostly been law-biting citizens back in the world and we were taught that to take another man's life was wrong.
[00:53:37] Somehow the perspective got twisted in a war.
[00:53:40] The government told us it was all right and in fact a must to kill members of another government's per people.
[00:53:47] Then we had the law on our side it turned out that most of us like to kill other men some of the guys which shoot it a dink as much as they would add a target.
[00:54:00] Some of the men didn't like to kill a dink up close the closer the killing the more personal it became.
[00:54:06] Others in the platoon like to kill in close a few even like to torture the dinks if they had a prisoner or cut the dead bodies with knives and a frenzy of aggression.
[00:54:15] A few didn't like to kill at all and wouldn't fire their weapons except to protect their buddies.
[00:54:21] Mostly we all saw it as a job and rationalized it in our own way.
[00:54:26] Over at all ran the streak of anger or fear that for brief moments ruled us all.
[00:54:34] My job as platoon leader was to control the spectrum of emotions to guide the men towards survival.
[00:54:42] I didn't believe in torturing or allowing a dink to die a lingering death in the jungle we never took prisoners if we could help it.
[00:54:49] Every day we spent the jungle he wrote into a little more of our humanity away.
[00:54:54] Prisoners could escape to become our enemy again hence no prisoners.
[00:54:59] The philosophical arguments in favor of man's ability to resist the slide into barbarism sound noble and rational in a classroom or at a cocktail party.
[00:55:10] But when the enemy is bearing down on you bent on taking your life away from you it's not his country against your country.
[00:55:18] Not his army against your army, not his philosophy against your philosophy.
[00:55:23] It's the fact that that son of a bitch is trying to kill you and you better kill him first.
[00:55:30] That's a reality right there.
[00:55:33] Now going back to tactics a little bit.
[00:55:40] Back to the book there was a spot about midway down the mountain marked in blue that meant something bigger than a stream.
[00:55:45] If I were an enemy commander that would be a perfect spot for a camp high mountains on three sides a good water supply thick jungle growth and escape path in any directions.
[00:55:56] If he decided on that location the enemy commander would be counting on attack from the valley up towards his location.
[00:56:02] He would have his back guarded but not very heavily or so I reasoned.
[00:56:07] I just liked that because you can see he's getting his mind in the mind of the enemy.
[00:56:10] He's thinking about what was he looking at the map. He sees stream. He sees valley. He sees good good covered positions from three sides.
[00:56:17] He's thinking okay this is what the enemy must be thinking right here.
[00:56:23] Now the fighting continues and as always you know I'm burning through book. I mean this is a this is a 250 page book and I'm reading you know what maybe 20 pages from it.
[00:56:37] So there's so much action going on and so many good lessons to learn.
[00:56:43] Obviously I can't cover them all that's why you can buy this book yourself as you should.
[00:56:48] But here we go I'm going to a point here where they've been in a firefight. They got three wounded one of the guys lost an arm one of them's unconscious.
[00:56:57] And they're getting they have a helicopter to come in and the helicopters lower down a cable and they're lifting the guys out to get them to a meta-vax situation.
[00:57:05] Back to the book the signal was given and the cable pulled him off the ground about halfway up he waved all of us grinning like a treasure cat blood dripped on us.
[00:57:15] Who's a picture I shall always hold in my mind a man dangling from a cable holding a stick fast into a turnic it on the stump of his leg waving at his comrades with the other hand a cigarette dangling from his lips.
[00:57:29] One six this is getting hairy up here we're starting to take fire the pilot reported hold on just one more.
[00:57:36] Spagon I lifted the unconscious man up while we slid the vest onto him someone had to be the cable which I hooked onto the ring.
[00:57:44] The unconscious man was wimched upward dangling like a limp doll at the end of a cable.
[00:57:49] Spagon I stood underneath watching this final Exodus as the crew man reached out to grab the man something went wrong.
[00:57:58] The man had become unhooked and somehow fell through 50 feet of sky towards us.
[00:58:04] We jumped back as the man fell in a heap at our feet.
[00:58:08] The medic and I pulled the man over.
[00:58:11] Fuck he stopped breathing.
[00:58:15] He goes on to say the nutrition rate on our side was terrible on our morale.
[00:58:21] Although we killed and wounded many of the NVA we never knew how much it hurt them.
[00:58:26] It seemed there was an unlimited number to take their places.
[00:58:30] But on our side when we lost a man we all knew and it wore heavily on our minds.
[00:58:38] The constant marching and fighting demanded two things of us strength and absolute reliability.
[00:58:48] Now they're moving out on another operation and there's one of the soldiers named Yoder.
[00:58:57] Yoder was the point man. He was experienced and full of good humor due to his promotion to door gunner.
[00:59:04] A good man to have on point any day he was aggressive and unaffraid.
[00:59:08] Even though he was going in soon there was no question of putting someone else in his place on point.
[00:59:13] It was his turn and he would not have it in any other way.
[00:59:15] So he's getting promoted to door gunner so he's going to pull out the field.
[00:59:18] He's going to fly around and helicopter.
[00:59:20] You know, relatively safe compared to being in the field.
[00:59:25] He reminded me of a hillbilly with this course language, man, rhythms and humor.
[00:59:31] I was always asking him who he was going to get that front tooth replaced.
[00:59:35] That missing tooth made him look more like a hillbilly than anything else.
[00:59:39] He always laughed and said, fuck sir, I ain't about to let them fucking army dentist work on me.
[00:59:44] She had no that would be a lick on me.
[00:59:48] So they continue their patrol and they're coming up on this kind of flat area and Yoder,
[00:59:55] Crap forward and a crouch looked back at me and grinned.
[00:59:58] I grinned back and nodded my head.
[01:00:01] Yoder stepped over a tree route holding up part of the small gully bank.
[01:00:07] At that moment all hell broke loose as a chai-com machine gun strafed the point element.
[01:00:13] Yoder was hitting the body and fell forward into the gully.
[01:00:16] The machine gun acted as a key which triggered a complete ambush.
[01:00:20] We walked into a classical U-shaped ambush with the machine gun being at the base of the U.
[01:00:26] So we used to call this a fire sack when you get ambushed and you're completely surrounded by the enemy.
[01:00:33] That's where they are.
[01:00:35] Starts with this machine gun, hit Noder and then just breaks out.
[01:00:39] Explosions, machine guns and rifle bullets rip through the air and ricochet off the ground and trees around us.
[01:00:48] The noise was overwhelming men were screaming and yelling trying desperately to get cover or screaming when they were hit or thought they were hit,
[01:00:54] which was almost as terrifying.
[01:00:56] We still not seen any of the enemy in the thick growth around us.
[01:00:59] Most of us in the point played dead.
[01:01:02] I lay trying to get my thinking organized as to what to do so you're just taking massive ambush and you're laying there thinking,
[01:01:10] what am I going to do?
[01:01:12] I could hear Yoder crying on the other side of the route where you'd fallen.
[01:01:16] He cried out for me to come and get him.
[01:01:19] Lieutenant, I've been hit, I've been hit bad, I'm dying, please come and get me, please come and get me.
[01:01:24] I turned my head in his direction.
[01:01:27] Twigs and bark from trees were falling like snow all around us as the terrible shrapnel and firepower rip through the jungle around us.
[01:01:36] I was terrified.
[01:01:41] So they're pinned down and he's actually ends up going to try and help one of the other guys first, a guy named Bell.
[01:01:53] Then he gets to Bell under covering fire.
[01:01:57] And he says Bell was able to help me but couldn't see anything.
[01:02:01] He limped and crawled, I pushed and swore as we continuously fell in our flight back up the hill.
[01:02:07] As I pulled him up the hill, one of my feet was shot up from underneath me.
[01:02:10] I'd been shot in the hill, one of the bullets knocking off a piece of my boot heel.
[01:02:14] And then the force had knocked me down.
[01:02:17] I got to begin and felt a tremendous blow to my hip, knocking me down.
[01:02:20] He'd again, I thought, finally I got Bell behind a rock.
[01:02:24] Doc was there and started working on him.
[01:02:26] I lay on my back looking up at the sky through the jungle canopy, not believing I'd actually made it down there and back.
[01:02:32] Yoder was still down there and although I had witnessed the bullets hitting him, I didn't want to leave.
[01:02:37] I had to be absolutely sure he was dead.
[01:02:39] I would never forgive myself if I pulled back and he was still alive.
[01:02:43] I was ready to call artillery in on our position if we were overrun.
[01:02:49] That's like the ultimate.
[01:02:52] The ultimate game over move.
[01:02:55] We're going to be overrun by the enemy.
[01:02:57] Here we go.
[01:02:58] I'm going to call all the ordinance on my position.
[01:03:01] Drop.
[01:03:02] Luckily, the fire subsides, one of the other pertains had come to their help.
[01:03:07] And now that other pertune shows up and the enemy's pretty much gone and it stops shooting.
[01:03:12] We all stood up.
[01:03:14] A couple of my men and I ran down to where three sixes point was standing over Yoder.
[01:03:18] I leaped over the edge of the gully and stopped at Yoder's body.
[01:03:23] Neeling down, I turned his body over.
[01:03:26] He had died with his head lying downhill.
[01:03:28] His face was a dark blue from the blood which gravity had pulled into the downhill portion of his body.
[01:03:33] There wasn't much blood on his body but numerous bullet holes were cut into his fatigues covering his stomach and chest.
[01:03:40] His eyes were closed.
[01:03:42] I looked at him for a moment.
[01:03:44] My thoughts running back to our many conversations in the past.
[01:03:47] Once we had discussed whether we would go to the aid of one of our fellow soldiers if he was in trouble.
[01:03:53] I had told him I would always respond to one of my men if they needed help.
[01:03:58] He had replied it would be a lick on me.
[01:04:01] I wondered if he had known that I tried to get to him.
[01:04:06] He was the first man under my command to die.
[01:04:11] I looked up to see some of my platoon and three-sixes platoon standing over a dink body in the gully.
[01:04:17] Three-sixes had an Indian hiss platoon and I had an Indian in my platoon.
[01:04:21] They drew their knives and slashed the enemy's body in frustration.
[01:04:26] This was the only dead dink the men could find.
[01:04:29] One lousy dink for all that pain and suffering.
[01:04:32] At least we could take our head out on that son of a bitch.
[01:04:37] They had also taken one prisoner as well the other platoon head.
[01:04:45] And so now he starts thinking back to the book.
[01:04:50] This is it I thought.
[01:04:52] I'd been wounded four times in battle.
[01:04:54] I had done my job.
[01:04:55] Captain Cells had asked after my third wound if I wanted to be sent back.
[01:04:59] Anyone with three wounds was due that.
[01:05:02] All it took was two wounds to get you out of the field.
[01:05:04] Surely forward let me live with myself.
[01:05:06] What was I trying to prove?
[01:05:08] But I answered my own question.
[01:05:10] The men depend on me.
[01:05:12] It's my job to keep them alive by giving them good leadership and looking after them.
[01:05:16] They need me.
[01:05:18] Yeah, but shit.
[01:05:21] What did I owe myself?
[01:05:23] I had a wife and two little girls who needed me.
[01:05:26] The $10,000 in insurance money wouldn't do them much good.
[01:05:29] Where did my duty lie?
[01:05:31] I was still shaking.
[01:05:33] I couldn't go through this again.
[01:05:35] Reluctantly almost against my wheel.
[01:05:38] I started walking toward the captain.
[01:05:40] Captain?
[01:05:41] Yes, Fred.
[01:05:43] You asked once if I wanted to go out of the field.
[01:05:46] If I'd been wounded a third time, he turned and looked into my face.
[01:05:50] Yes.
[01:05:51] Well, I think I mean, would you think I was letting you and my men down if I did?
[01:05:56] I stammered?
[01:05:57] No, I wouldn't.
[01:05:58] You've done your job.
[01:06:00] I could get you a job.
[01:06:01] Get you a good job with S2.
[01:06:03] That's the intelligence back in the rear.
[01:06:06] I think I want out.
[01:06:09] I don't know if I can do this again.
[01:06:11] Maybe I can't cut it.
[01:06:13] That's nonsense.
[01:06:14] You're a hell of a fine officer and the men will understand, but you think about it.
[01:06:18] Okay, I will.
[01:06:19] Let me think.
[01:06:21] A little bit of confidence returned to his words.
[01:06:24] I handed you orders, things to him.
[01:06:26] I wandered back to the packs thinking.
[01:06:29] I should find you orders pack.
[01:06:32] Bell had stood up and was coming toward me when he saw that blindfolded Dink.
[01:06:37] In one motion, he swung his fist into the Dink's face.
[01:06:40] He hit him again and again knocking the surprise Dink down in a burst of fury.
[01:06:44] Bell started kicking him.
[01:06:46] It was obvious Bell was going to kill him.
[01:06:49] The other men and I stood smoking and watching.
[01:06:53] We were going to let Bell kill the Dink.
[01:06:56] Bell had the right.
[01:06:58] Captain Cells yelled and ran over to us, pushing me out of the way.
[01:07:01] And pulling Bell off the Dink.
[01:07:03] Here, what's this?
[01:07:04] What's going on?
[01:07:05] We are not going to have this in my company.
[01:07:08] This man's a prisoner.
[01:07:10] Lieutenant Downs, what are you doing just standing there?
[01:07:13] I looked at him in surprise.
[01:07:15] Bell was killing this motherfucker.
[01:07:17] What's wrong with that?
[01:07:18] I retorted.
[01:07:19] You know God damn well.
[01:07:20] What's a matter with that lieutenant?
[01:07:22] This man is defenseless and our prisoner.
[01:07:24] Now let's get this prisoner back to the L.D.
[01:07:26] L.Z.
[01:07:27] I wanted the Dink dead.
[01:07:29] But the captain was right.
[01:07:32] So you can see there.
[01:07:36] Obviously, Captain Cells has a great head on his shoulders.
[01:07:40] And there's something else that play.
[01:07:43] The other thing that's at play is that by function of the way the battle went down.
[01:07:50] And by function of being one rank above the Ptum commanders that are in the firefights,
[01:07:56] guess what he is defecto.
[01:07:59] He's detached.
[01:08:00] He's detached.
[01:08:02] He didn't.
[01:08:03] I mean, Bell as the guy was pinned down almost got killed, right?
[01:08:07] He's the guy that's emotional.
[01:08:09] And guess who pulled him out, wrist his life lost,
[01:08:11] Yoda, that was down.
[01:08:13] So these guys are emotional.
[01:08:15] They're, they're, they want to kill this guy.
[01:08:17] They captured him.
[01:08:18] He's VC.
[01:08:19] Let's kill him.
[01:08:20] And Captain Cells is detached because he wasn't in that firefight.
[01:08:25] He wasn't directly there.
[01:08:26] So he's able to maintain enough mental detachment to, to make a hard decision.
[01:08:35] But also hold the line.
[01:08:37] And this is something that, you know, when we go through the me lime ascertain,
[01:08:40] this could have happened over and over again.
[01:08:42] This could have happened to any, anywhere along the way.
[01:08:44] Someone could have said, hey, what are you doing right there?
[01:08:46] Stop.
[01:08:47] We don't do that.
[01:08:48] And that's exactly what Cells does.
[01:08:51] And I think another thing that's important from a leadership perspective.
[01:08:56] Also, well, before I go to that point, you notice that when he's having the personal conversation
[01:09:01] with Lieutenant Downey calls him Fred, but when he's screwing up and he needs to kind of put him in his place,
[01:09:07] he's Lieutenant Downey's.
[01:09:10] On top of that, from the leadership perspective, from Captain Cells perspective,
[01:09:15] he's got to always remember that what is happening,
[01:09:20] that they are emotional, that they did just lose their body.
[01:09:24] He's got, he can't just, you know, be so on the straight narrow that goes, oh, I'm going to court Marshal you.
[01:09:30] He could court Marshal, right?
[01:09:32] Hey, you abused a prisoner.
[01:09:33] You're, you know, I'm going to court Marshal you.
[01:09:35] And he doesn't do that because he understands their perspective.
[01:09:39] And that's why, you know, again, throughout this book, Cells really impresses me as a,
[01:09:43] as a very square way good solid leader.
[01:09:45] As does Downs.
[01:09:46] I mean, Downs, obviously right here, he's emotional.
[01:09:49] And he's lost it.
[01:09:51] He's, he's, he's cross the line, right?
[01:09:54] But all it takes is Cells just to get back over here, buddy.
[01:09:58] You cross the line, come back and he says the captain was right.
[01:10:01] So that's all it took, just a little snap, just to get him to attach a little bit for the emotions
[01:10:06] and, and move move away from the darkness.
[01:10:14] Back to the book, I walked over to the bodies.
[01:10:17] The odors eyes were partially shut and I leaned down to push them close, not that it didn't
[01:10:22] be good, but for some reason, I thought it was better that way.
[01:10:25] I stood there with one hand on my aching hip, smoking and thinking.
[01:10:30] The odors face was all muddy from the numerous times he'd been dropped in the mud, and it was a trickle of blood at the base of his throat.
[01:10:38] This is the way it will always end, I thought.
[01:10:41] Men being killed in the jungle, other men dragging their bodies out, putting them on choppers,
[01:10:46] and the rest of us going back to the fighting.
[01:10:50] When they left on the chopper, it was as if they had never been.
[01:10:54] Men's beginning and men's end would always be attended by only a few.
[01:11:00] Those that bore them at birth and those that bore them at death.
[01:11:05] The only important thing was what he did in between.
[01:11:09] Good or bad or indifferent.
[01:11:12] Touch those around him in some way and then be gone.
[01:11:18] I wondered if a salute would be in order, not necessarily in the military sense, but a salute from one who had known him and who had never forget him.
[01:11:27] I decided it was and I raised my hand to my forehead in a farewell.
[01:11:37] Now the birds come in and pick them up as after he gives that final salute to Yoder.
[01:11:42] Smoke was popped and the large choppers swung in towards us for his landing.
[01:11:47] The doors were pushed back and I saw the door gunner on the side facing me looking around, angiously searching for the ominous,
[01:11:53] for the omnipresent enemy.
[01:11:56] Good man, I thought, not trusting a goddamn thing even with an American infantry company surrounding the LZ.
[01:12:02] I love that. He's noticing that this door gunner is coming in and he's coming in and picking up and instead of this guy cut in corners.
[01:12:10] I mean, I got this thing in front of me and there's no rounds being fired.
[01:12:12] I'm just going to relax and know this guy's in the game opens the door.
[01:12:15] Doesn't want to say he says not trusting a goddamn thing even with an American infantry company on the LZ.
[01:12:27] Many thoughts were criss-crossing my mind above everything else ran the thought that I could not abandon my men.
[01:12:34] I felt that shame that I had asked Captain Cells to pull me out of the field earlier when I was still shaken.
[01:12:40] What would the men think if they found out I was doing such a thing?
[01:12:44] Worse, what would I think of myself?
[01:12:48] Now they continue to do operations and eventually they get pulled out of the field on this for the final time on a helicopter back to the book.
[01:13:05] The machine carried us away.
[01:13:07] I looked over my men sprawled along the sides of the chopper.
[01:13:11] They didn't remove the magazines from their weapons before boarding and now we're holding them close to their bodies.
[01:13:16] The men were dirty and unshaven, their clothes and various stages of disrepair, jungle boots worn and torn with claws and mud between the cleats.
[01:13:24] There were dark rings under their eyes and their faces were drawn and tired.
[01:13:29] Some of those faces were new men, sent out to a place that started the operation in where they were erased.
[01:13:37] We had experienced the worst of life and the most challenging.
[01:13:41] We had survived.
[01:13:44] The platoon I took back was not the platoon I had brought out.
[01:13:55] Now they're on yet another operation.
[01:14:00] If they go back they get reset and they're out on another operation.
[01:14:05] Doing a patrol and I'm going back to the book about five meters past the gate.
[01:14:10] The two men turned to me and waved me forward. All clear, sir. Let's go, Rudo.
[01:14:15] I passed through the gate. My right hand grasped my M16, my left held my cigarette.
[01:14:21] I was humming the blue tail fly as I mentally ticked off the positions around the saddle where I would set my men.
[01:14:27] I noticed the time.
[01:14:28] 07.45 hours.
[01:14:31] My foot slipped backwards a fraction of an inch hitting the trigger mechanism of a mine.
[01:14:38] I never heard the explosion.
[01:14:41] Black powder and dirt flew by me. My ear drums ripped.
[01:14:45] My body was flying through the air. I threw my arms in front of me and a reflex motion to balance myself.
[01:14:50] My eyes registered the horror of a brilliantly white jagged bone sticking out of the stump of arm above where my left elbow had been.
[01:14:59] Ragged bloody flesh around at the splintered bone.
[01:15:02] My mind cursed as utter helplessness and disrepair and despair overwhelmed me.
[01:15:08] Another part of my body coolly calculated what it caused the explosion.
[01:15:13] It had been a landmine. But what kind would blow off my arm instead of my legs?
[01:15:17] Of course, it had to be a bouncing beddy. A mine that flies up to out of the ground after being tripped and explodes waste high.
[01:15:24] That would do it.
[01:15:26] My I'm 16 had been in my right hand. The rifle was shattered. My hand was mangled.
[01:15:33] I stared in horror at what remained of my right arm. The flesh had been ripped away exposing two bones in my white forearm from wrist to the elbow.
[01:15:42] The bones look like two white glistening, narrow rods buried in raw bloody meat.
[01:15:48] Thinking my god, my god, my god, I felt told defeat of my life as I landed on my feet five yards from where the mine exploded.
[01:15:58] After landing, I staggered forward two or three steps and then collapsed. My legs wouldn't work.
[01:16:04] The mine had gone off about six inches from my left hip.
[01:16:07] From the waist down my body was mutilated and torn where large chunks of flesh, muscles, blood vessels and nerves had been ripped away by the hot exploding shrapnel.
[01:16:17] My buttocks were blown away. The back of my legs were ripped to the bone down to my heels.
[01:16:23] I rolled over on my back being careful to keep my stump and right arm out of the dirt and sand.
[01:16:28] My body was sending so many pain signals to my brain that it overloaded like an electrical circuit.
[01:16:34] It caused me to feel a racing, humming, numbness.
[01:16:38] I lifted my head to view a scene from hell.
[01:16:42] I watched a couple of men run by me to the wounded point man. They would only glance at my, at me sideways as I lay there holding my bloody stump in the air.
[01:16:50] They seem nervous.
[01:16:53] Some of my men ran toward me, then turned suddenly away at the sight of my torn body.
[01:16:58] They stood near me but hesitated to come too close as if their movement through the air would make it worse.
[01:17:04] Spag asked me to turn sideways a little bit so he could pull my gear off. There were tears as eyes as he worked over me.
[01:17:12] With a grunt he pulled the belt out from under me.
[01:17:16] Is there anything I can do for you? Spag asked, yes run over there and pick up my arm and bring it back to me. I don't want to leave it in this stinking village.
[01:17:25] I told Marley to get my squad leaders. Go take care of the other men dock. They need you.
[01:17:30] I looked up. Marley and my squad leaders were standing in a rough line along my right side. I asked who was hurt. I was feeling weaker and weaker. It was so goddamn cold.
[01:17:39] As my body fought for life, my thoughts ran to my man and my platoon. I felt I was cheating them by leaving them when they needed me most.
[01:17:46] When I joined the platoon as their leader, they had taught me the ways to survive in combat.
[01:17:51] A second lieutenant who was new in country and they were old timers, 18, 19, 20, but old to the ways of combat and death.
[01:18:01] As I gained experience and confidence as a leader, I became an old timer. Having to make decisions that put me in the position I was in now wounded and maimed facing death.
[01:18:12] My men were still up there looking at me, despair on their faces. Their invulnerable leader had been brought down.
[01:18:20] Marley, yes sir, I want you to your men to get the dink who planted that mine. I want them dead. Get them. We will once six. Don't you worry about that. They looked at each other. Then back at me.
[01:18:34] The gray haze of the day was strong. I pushed it back to look beyond my men. It was colder now and harder to see.
[01:18:43] I was thinking of my grandma down and her farm of the woods and fields of Indiana. I loved so much. If only I could walk them one more time.
[01:18:53] I'm only 23 years old and I'm dying. What a waste. There are so many things I had meant to do and say, but I hadn't. Now I will never get the chance.
[01:19:10] So, obviously, although he thought he was going to die, he lived. He lost his arm. He ended up with severe wounds.
[01:19:25] He got discharged from the army. That's one of the things in the story. He had actually got picked up for pilot program. He's going to be a pilot. He's going to stay in the army. He's going to be a pilot.
[01:19:38] Obviously, that was gone because he didn't have an arm anymore. Luckily, he was able to save his other arm. But severe wounds were long rehab. Eventually, he ends up going back to college.
[01:19:54] And here we go back to the book. In the fall of 1968, as I stopped at a traffic light on my walk to class across the campus of the University of Denver, a man stepped up to me and said, hi.
[01:20:09] Without waiting for my reply to his greeting, he pointed to the hooks taking out of my left sleeve. Get that in Vietnam. I said, yeah, up near Tam Kay and one corps serves you right.
[01:20:23] As the man walked away, I still rooted, too confused with hurt, shame and anger to react. Ten years have passed. The hurt, shame and anger still flood over me with the memory. But one thing I am certain.
[01:20:45] None of the men I knew who served in Vietnam deserved a dire to be maimed either physically or mentally. I think it is necessary now to give Vietnam to give another view of Vietnam.
[01:20:57] That of the day-to-day life of an infantry man on the ground. I have always been asked what I thought about Vietnam, but never when it was like to fight in Vietnam.
[01:21:09] This is the way it was for us, the platoon of Delta 16.
[01:21:24] And in the afterward, he talks about why he wrote this book. In writing the killing zone, I had two goals.
[01:21:39] I wanted future young infantry lieutenant and non-commissioned officers to learn from my experiences, both good and bad.
[01:21:46] Some actions I took as a combat officer had worked out well and some had not. The time had come to deal with both. Perhaps some would learn from my mistakes, especially the lessons that combat, especially the lesson that combat does not go by the book.
[01:22:03] I also wanted to show future generations that the American soldier in Vietnam was a good soldier. In 1978, the anti-war anti-military feeling in the United States was pervasive in the newspapers on television, among writers and movies and colleges.
[01:22:20] I had started college at the University of Denver in the fall of 1968 while I was still on active duty in the military. The students for a democratic society, the weathermen and other anti-war groups on campus targeted anyone in the military as fair game for their anti-war stance.
[01:22:38] Such hostility was not pleasant for me or other Vietnam veterans. It was hard to be denigrated for serving your country. Many veterans have never had never had never had been in the service for many years after Vietnam.
[01:22:54] Angry at the anti-war faction, I wanted to set the record straight by proving that the men I served with had fought and died with honor.
[01:23:08] And here are the men that died and made the ultimate sacrifice for freedom and for their brothers in arms from Delta Company, first battalion of the 14th Infantry, third brigade, fourth infantry division.
[01:23:32] PFC Donald Lawrence Glover, PFC Norman Charles Kissinger, PFC Robert Wayne Seaton,
[01:23:46] Speck 4 Gregory Thomas Eiding, Speck 4 Charles Irwin Edwin Doc Hoffman, PFC James Garrett Miller,
[01:24:06] Speck 4 James Strong Yoder, PFC William Henry Hark, Speck 4 Stephen Richard Anderson, Speck 4 Lewis Charles Nelson,
[01:24:26] Second Lieutenant William Dwight Ordway, PFC Paul James Miller, Speck 4 Jose Cortez,
[01:24:41] PFC Charles Peter Torleyett, and Second Lieutenant John C. Martin. So Fred Downs, Second Lieutenant asked us to do two things in this book, first learned from his experiences.
[01:25:10] The mistakes, the lessons, and that is what we do here. We read and we study and we think and we learn.
[01:25:23] And the second thing he asks is that we remember the man who fought and died with honor.
[01:25:33] And that's something that we need to do and we should continue to do each and every day. Remember.
[01:25:48] And that is one thing about this podcast that has a lot of meaning to me.
[01:26:01] It's the fact that people are listening to it and the memory of these types of men and the challenges that they face, it will be remembered.
[01:26:12] They will be remembered. Always.
[01:26:30] So once again, the book is called the killing zone, my life in the Vietnam War by Frederick Downs.
[01:26:42] It's a fantastic read, it's a fantastic book, it's a fantastic dedication and it doesn't incredible job of honoring these men that fought so hard in a very unpopular war.
[01:26:59] And by the book and read it, you will absolutely get a lot out of it.
[01:27:09] Echo Charles.
[01:27:13] I believe we can move on to the next sector of this podcast.
[01:27:20] And again, if nothing else is delivered through this podcast, you know, let's let it be these couple things, these couple ideas of learning lessons from other people's experiences and remembering other people sacrifices.
[01:27:43] That's definitely one of the driving forces behind my will to do this podcast.
[01:27:53] And we're going to keep doing the podcast. Echo, get me out of here, please.
[01:27:58] I'm in that zone right now.
[01:28:01] I need to send up a red star cluster. You know what that is?
[01:28:04] So in the military, when you need help, it's a red star cluster. It's a flare. You pop up and it means you couldn't communicate with anybody and you need some help.
[01:28:12] So there's my red star cluster. You need to jump in and say, hey, jockel speaking to the podcast.
[01:28:19] Here's how we can support it. So talk about that while I get over here and get myself under control before I start smashing things.
[01:28:28] All right. Yeah. If you want to send any reinforcements to support jockel in our podcast here.
[01:28:35] While supporting yourself with supplementation, by the way, good idea. Go to on it.com slash jockel.
[01:28:43] So on it has like these supplements that we take supplements.
[01:28:47] You're joined, krill oil boom,
[01:28:49] shrimp tech for performance, hard stuff, you know, crossfit to jitsu. If you're trying to go hard, you know hardcore in the paint. Yeah, shrimp tech boom.
[01:29:04] Also, if you do your shopping at Amazon, which I think we all do.
[01:29:09] Go ahead and click through our website. We have a little link there. You know, you can support it that way.
[01:29:15] That's a super easy way. I only got to do this. Remember to do it before you shop. That is helpful. Yeah. Very much so we also have a new tool.
[01:29:26] Because can you can you make them remembering part of a little bit easier? Yes. So when, you know, you figure hey.
[01:29:35] I got to remember to go to the website before I shop on Amazon.
[01:29:40] Sometimes I'm in a hurry, whatever. Maybe I'm thinking about other stuff. I'm not thinking about jocgos podcast every single day all day.
[01:29:49] I got to buy some, you know, some cleaner or some duct tape, whatever.
[01:29:53] Here's a way. So it helps you remember and or makes you not have to remember. You know, it's this little tool called the trooper tool.
[01:30:02] Jocopotcaster. Pretty cool. Thanks to Brady for that one. Brady. Proxy. It's a cool little thing. It's like this small little thing is pretty cool. You click on there's a little link on both websites. So you click on the thing.
[01:30:14] It asks you if you want it. You click yes. Put the little icon there on your browser and it basically directs you to the affiliate Amazon link automatically.
[01:30:27] You've got to think yeah, it's dope. And that's that's a really easy way to support the podcast.
[01:30:32] Yeah. And the, the, it doesn't cost you anything. It costs Amazon. And it seems to me like Amazon can afford to kick a little bit to the podcast over here.
[01:30:42] Right. Yeah. And it's really, it does serve its purpose because you know, Amazon, you know, like Amazon there, you know, they're a good company provides good stuff, good service and all that.
[01:30:52] And they're trying to get the word up. And you know, they, they partner with people who can get the word out.
[01:30:58] Yeah. And there's people that are going to go, you know what, I want to support the podcast. So I will buy this and set a buying it through some other website.
[01:31:04] They're going to go to the, the store that's going to support something that they enjoy or something that they get value out of hopefully from this podcast. So yeah, that's an awesome way to support. We appreciate it.
[01:31:14] And it makes it like, it's kind of, this little tool is kind of cool because it kind of makes it official, you know, like if you're, I mean, if you're one of the people that that listen to this and really talk with us and stuff, it's a cool way to kind of be more part of the group I guess.
[01:31:28] It seems like it when I put my in up there, I'm like, hey, you know, I'm like fish. I don't know, I felt like I gave it.
[01:31:33] Yeah.
[01:31:34] Echo Charles is in the game.
[01:31:35] No, we dig that. So yeah, it's a, it's a really cool tool. You don't have to, it's safe. It's not like this. You just put it on. If you don't want it on there anymore, whatever reason.
[01:31:43] Right click it right click. And it could you made a little video that shows you go to the Jockel podcast YouTube channel and echo Charles made a video of very high speed instructional video on how to do this.
[01:31:56] Oh, I didn't turn away.
[01:31:57] But it's really easy. You are not playing around with the instructional video. I think that was very impressive. And by the way, subscribe to me a favor, to subscribe to the YouTube channel, the the Jockel podcast YouTube channel.
[01:32:13] That way, when echo because I'm been, I've been hacking on echo to make little outtakes and other little conversations and videos and he's like, well, you know, we got some subscribers, but maybe, you know, if we had some more, maybe I'd be more.
[01:32:25] So we need to motivate echo Charles just a little bit because so we could get some outtake videos, some other other interesting videos. I wanted to do a little preview today of what it was like when we're getting set up because we have a little ritual that we go through when we're making some some beverages, you know, some alpha brainy and we have, you know, so I was like, I'd be pretty cool if you shot a little video and he's like, well, you know, maybe one day.
[01:32:51] I mean, right now. No, I actually am am a teenager. So subscribe to the, I don't think it doesn't, I mean, just just go to go to the Jockel podcast channel on YouTube. Subscribe.
[01:33:02] Yeah, I think it's YouTube.com slash Jockel podcast. And also, what's cool about that is when you do that, then you get little emails that say, not like you just get an email, it says, hey, Jockel podcast just uploaded a new video. I get those and I'm always like, oh, yeah, cool. Now I can watch the video.
[01:33:17] Even that's optional. Okay. If you want to opt out, but yeah, that's a good and I have a member that that one child children's book idea. I had yeah, you probably forget because no, you need to remind me I got a lot of ideas. I have that. I had that on video when we're talking anyway.
[01:33:34] Oh, yeah, that'd be funny. Yeah. So yeah, some of some things you got to understand. So I have a certain stand. This is not talking to you. I'm talking to people that are listening right now.
[01:33:43] I mean, you're here too. So I guess I'm talking to you too, but people got to understand that there's a certain expectation in my mind of what the podcast is and what it's supposed to be. So when something happens, that's not quite there.
[01:33:58] I'm like, you know what, I don't really, hey, you know, I don't want to talk about that on the podcast, but this, like, for instance, before we hit record, we're recording, but before we go before I open the show, we're talking about something.
[01:34:12] We're always talking about something. And sometimes those conversations are 20 minutes, half an hour. We're talking about real stuff. We're talking about legit things, but we haven't even introduced the podcast yet. So that goes in the scrap pile.
[01:34:25] Right. Now some of the scrap mile material while it might not be in March, Marching step with what the podcast is. It does perhaps have a, have a life that it could live and it could guide people in a certain way.
[01:34:41] And it's stuff that people might be interested in. So that could be the YouTube download, you know, YouTube just post on there. So that way people get a little taste of other things around the podcast, which I think people would.
[01:34:53] Yeah, that makes sense. So like, you know, if you free your mind, you know, Charles, free your mind.
[01:34:59] Yeah, you're totally right.
[01:35:02] Well, thank you. Thank you.
[01:35:04] What's for once?
[01:35:06] Yeah.
[01:35:07] Yeah, because you know, if you listen to it on iTunes, you're like, why am I going to sit and watch Echo and John's with talk to each other? You know, I listened to one and I got to look at them to you know, a lot of people might not be interested in that.
[01:35:19] There's some really, there's some moments. You know what I do is I, well, I watch certain moments of the podcast on YouTube.
[01:35:26] Yeah.
[01:35:27] Like when I know I was feeling intense about something, I go and see what it, see what that looks like. See, like, okay, what does that look like when I'm feeling that?
[01:35:35] Does it look like, does it look like from the outside? What it feels like from the inside?
[01:35:41] Because even today, I was getting pretty fired up. Like, I mean, you're talking about heroes and young man, man, 18, 19, 20 years old that said, okay, this unpopular war, I'll go fight it.
[01:35:55] Yeah, I'll go fight it. You know, I'll go risk my life. I'll go out there in the jungle and live in, you know, I was, I was out this week in the field.
[01:36:04] Right, camping. I kept putting in quotes on Twitter. I was putting in quotes because I was like, I can't call this the field.
[01:36:11] But you know, it wasn't the comfort of a house, right? It was in it was in it was, you know, bugs and ants and I'm like thinking myself, you know, this is nothing.
[01:36:22] And I was thinking back to, to the forgotten highlander.
[01:36:27] And remember the bugs were just eating those guys alive. And you know, you just, you just can't, you can't compare. So these guys that, that just stepped up fought, just want to, I just want to always, you know, that kind of thing will get me fired up. So when I go back to the videos, sometimes I go, man, what was I looking like right?
[01:36:53] You know, little self assessment. And I wonder if, you know, because when I'm feeling that way, I'm like, okay, you got to attach a little bit because you're starting to get a little bit fired up.
[01:37:02] And let's start breaking and start getting like really emotional about something. So I got to, I got a red flag goes up. I go to you get a back off a little bit here.
[01:37:09] We don't have to edit the video if I break down.
[01:37:13] So I got to just back off and sometimes I got to see what does that look like. Does it look, can you tell?
[01:37:18] Am I looking, you know, so that's the kind of thing that I like to go back and look at the YouTube videos and say, you know, what does this look like?
[01:37:24] Yeah, yeah, yeah, this rebellion. There's a lot of value on YouTube that I'm, we're probably not, you know, capitalizing.
[01:37:31] I don't know, but I prefer it for you.
[01:37:33] Yeah, who care?
[01:37:34] And it's weird too because the interesting thing about this is you use the word capitalized, right?
[01:37:39] In the fact of the matter is, we don't really capitalizing on this at all.
[01:37:43] And I keep getting told by a variety of different people what to do to you to do what that right there, to capitalize.
[01:37:51] I meant it to just capitalize not for us to come up with.
[01:37:54] Yeah, I know for everybody, you know, people know what we, what we want to do is we want to maximize the effort that we put in here.
[01:38:02] Want to maximize some of the people get the most out of it.
[01:38:04] Yeah, that's what I know that's what you meant.
[01:38:06] I know you didn't mean like let's run the cash machine because we're doing it for the passion of doing it.
[01:38:11] That's what I'm sitting here for sitting here so I can tell so I can tell this story right here about these guys.
[01:38:17] Yeah.
[01:38:18] And I know, you know, I know I get, I hear from all kinds of cops.
[01:38:21] I hear from my, my seal buddies that are still in that are listening to it that are,
[01:38:25] ask me, text me questions going, hey man, what's going on with us?
[01:38:28] Hey, what would you do differently here?
[01:38:29] Hey, those are my buddies that are in that are getting ready to deploy overseas right now.
[01:38:33] And I get texts and emails and Twitter things from guys that were guys that are act duty and the Marine Corps and the army.
[01:38:40] So I know that we're getting the word out there and that's what that's what I'm sitting here for.
[01:38:46] Yeah.
[01:38:47] Yeah. And you make a good point with, you know, there's a lot of people who don't watch the video.
[01:38:53] Of course.
[01:38:54] That's what they said.
[01:38:55] I mean, I don't watch podcasts videos.
[01:38:57] Right.
[01:38:57] I mean, why, why, why, why, you know, the reason podcasts are so convenient is that you can be doing something else.
[01:39:01] Yes.
[01:39:02] You don't have to dedicate, you have to dedicate your all your senses to it.
[01:39:05] You only have to dedicate two of them, your ears and your brain.
[01:39:08] Yeah.
[01:39:09] But you don't have to dedicate your eyes.
[01:39:10] You don't have to dedicate your ass to sit down and chair and watch something.
[01:39:13] You can walk around.
[01:39:14] You can do yard work.
[01:39:15] You can drive.
[01:39:16] You can do what you got to do.
[01:39:17] Yeah.
[01:39:18] But I think the shorter little YouTube clips where you go, hey, check this out.
[01:39:21] This is when Jocquan, I were discussing a kids book that Echo was talking about or
[01:39:26] Good idea, I know it.
[01:39:27] Yeah.
[01:39:28] I don't know.
[01:39:29] Yeah.
[01:39:29] Post that thing up.
[01:39:30] Yeah.
[01:39:30] And it's interesting because a lot of people apparently don't, I mean, don't our surprise that I look different than I sound.
[01:39:37] Yeah.
[01:39:38] I guess.
[01:39:39] Oh, yeah.
[01:39:39] They think you're a skinny white hipster.
[01:39:41] Or yeah.
[01:39:42] That's what they think you are.
[01:39:43] Maybe I have that heart.
[01:39:44] Maybe you are at heart.
[01:39:45] You're just trapped.
[01:39:46] Maybe you identify as a skinny white hipster.
[01:39:48] Maybe you know you're a, a 220.
[01:39:51] I don't know.
[01:39:52] I don't, I don't identify myself by my physical characterist.
[01:39:56] I like that.
[01:39:57] It's what's in my heart in my mind.
[01:39:59] The content of your character is new.
[01:40:01] Yeah.
[01:40:02] I'm telling them I'm like, you're saying.
[01:40:03] Yeah.
[01:40:04] I think the YouTube I just get idea.
[01:40:05] Yeah.
[01:40:06] Yeah.
[01:40:07] Yeah.
[01:40:08] Yeah.
[01:40:09] Yeah.
[01:40:10] Yeah.
[01:40:11] From when we were filming commercials and stuff.
[01:40:12] Oh, right.
[01:40:13] Yeah.
[01:40:14] Yeah.
[01:40:15] Those were good.
[01:40:16] All right.
[01:40:17] Anything else?
[01:40:17] Jocka you in.
[01:40:18] Jocka store.
[01:40:19] Did you talk about that?
[01:40:20] Yeah.
[01:40:21] Go to the store.
[01:40:22] Buy some, buy some merch.
[01:40:23] Somebody hit me up on Twitter the other day.
[01:40:25] And they're like, hey, you should set up, we got to ask this bunch of times.
[01:40:28] Set up a Patreon.
[01:40:29] Patry on.
[01:40:30] Is that what it's called?
[01:40:31] Patreon.
[01:40:32] Patreon.
[01:40:33] Where you can donate to the podcast, certain amount.
[01:40:37] And I just said, hey, man, go buy a t-shirt.
[01:40:40] You know, that supports us just as well.
[01:40:42] And you get a t-shirt.
[01:40:43] And that's a good way to support the podcast.
[01:40:45] You buy some merchandise.
[01:40:46] Buy some deer.
[01:40:47] Right.
[01:40:48] Yeah.
[01:40:49] The Jocka store.
[01:40:50] That's a good one.
[01:40:51] T-shirts.
[01:40:52] Coffee mugs.
[01:40:53] Stickers.
[01:40:54] Those are kind of cool.
[01:40:55] One of my friends saw two Jocka stickers in the wild.
[01:40:57] In the wild.
[01:40:58] Yeah.
[01:40:59] Or maybe there's a little one on the other.
[01:41:00] Yeah.
[01:41:01] And then you go, everyone in San Diego, we know where everyone in San Diego doesn't count.
[01:41:05] I don't know.
[01:41:06] Yeah.
[01:41:07] I don't see it.
[01:41:08] I don't believe that.
[01:41:09] It counts.
[01:41:10] Oh, but yeah.
[01:41:11] Awesome.
[01:41:12] It's good.
[01:41:13] So now we get to those questions from the inner webs.
[01:41:18] First question.
[01:41:22] Jocka is a minimal amount of competent defensive ability soft defense.
[01:41:30] Essentially.
[01:41:32] The most overlooked essential stabilizer of young male psyche.
[01:41:39] So this question.
[01:41:40] This actually came across the interwebs as a statement.
[01:41:45] An opinion.
[01:41:46] And I kind of rephrase it just a little bit to make it into a question.
[01:41:49] But it actually came across someone who's in look.
[01:41:52] He believes this person believes that they know and how to fight.
[01:41:57] You know, competent defensive ability.
[01:41:59] I call that knowing how to fight is, and he thinks it's the most essential stabilizer of a young male psyche.
[01:42:06] I agree with this statement.
[01:42:09] I think that, yeah, I completely agree with it.
[01:42:12] I think that learning how to fight and knowing how to fight gives you real confidence and security,
[01:42:21] not just in the form of being secure, but as a in opposition to insecurity, right?
[01:42:28] Because when you know how to fight, all of a sudden you don't have anything to prove anymore.
[01:42:33] And this changes.
[01:42:35] I wish I would have been going to do that a fight and a much more.
[01:42:38] We fought all the time when I was a kid.
[01:42:40] We fought.
[01:42:41] We did not have a fight.
[01:42:42] So what do we have to prove that we knew how to fight?
[01:42:44] If we actually knew how to fight, we wouldn't have to prove that all the time.
[01:42:47] So I absolutely agree with this.
[01:42:50] And that's why I'm constantly trying to get people to get energy.
[01:42:55] Get your kids energy, get your 13 year old boy, your 10 year old boy, get him into your jitsu.
[01:43:01] You're girl too.
[01:43:02] I mean, you're girl too.
[01:43:03] Because your girl's going to use it for defense.
[01:43:06] Girls don't have the constant tension of fighting that guys have.
[01:43:12] It is part of who we are.
[01:43:14] When I shake someone's hand, I don't care what kind of mood I'm thinking about taking them down.
[01:43:21] I'm thinking about what I'm going to do to them in a fight.
[01:43:23] It doesn't matter from meeting Santa Claus.
[01:43:25] I'm thinking about doing a double leg.
[01:43:27] I'm thinking about what is weight is.
[01:43:29] Does he have cauliflower?
[01:43:30] That's what I'm doing.
[01:43:31] And guys do that.
[01:43:33] Guys do that.
[01:43:34] And it's real.
[01:43:36] And I mean, especially in the environment, I grew up in the civil teams.
[01:43:38] I mean, everybody's got that constant.
[01:43:42] Like tests.
[01:43:43] That's the evaluation.
[01:43:46] So if you don't know how to fight, there's only one way to figure out where you are.
[01:43:51] And that is to fight.
[01:43:54] And so you end up doing stupid things.
[01:43:56] Stupid things to prove your your manhood.
[01:44:00] And I hate to use that word.
[01:44:01] But you end up doing stupid things to prove your manhood.
[01:44:03] So my recommendation is, well, I totally agree with this statement.
[01:44:07] I think it is a huge stabilizer of your personality.
[01:44:13] And and your psyche has a man.
[01:44:16] So kids get those kids to learn GJitsu.
[01:44:19] They're going to understand.
[01:44:23] Violence. You respect it.
[01:44:24] Because you know you've got choked out.
[01:44:26] You know what's happened.
[01:44:27] You know that is a horrible feeling.
[01:44:30] It's a horrible feeling when another human being can control you a hundred percent.
[01:44:36] You know what?
[01:44:37] Physically it doesn't matter how smart you are anymore.
[01:44:40] I'm sorry. It doesn't matter.
[01:44:42] It doesn't matter.
[01:44:43] It doesn't matter how smart you are anymore.
[01:44:45] When you are getting completely physically dominated by someone,
[01:44:48] it doesn't matter that you are smarter than them.
[01:44:51] At that time it's nothing you can do about it.
[01:44:52] You can, what are you going to challenge them to a spelling bee?
[01:44:54] It's not going to help you.
[01:44:56] You're under there controlling.
[01:44:58] That's a horrible horrible feeling.
[01:45:01] And so I think it's, you know, and I felt that you know when I was a kid,
[01:45:04] you know, I got bullied just like everybody gets bullied at sort of certain point.
[01:45:07] You know, you show up to high school.
[01:45:08] You're 13 years old.
[01:45:09] I was there.
[01:45:09] I was a young.
[01:45:10] Whatever.
[01:45:11] However, that works when you are born.
[01:45:13] That was born September.
[01:45:14] So I was a young scrawny.
[01:45:17] Kid.
[01:45:18] And I didn't get bullied to some crazy extent.
[01:45:21] But you get picked on.
[01:45:23] You get picked on.
[01:45:24] You get in the little scuffles and you get thrown around by a kid that's that reach
[01:45:28] puberty when he was nine and he's now, you know, six feet to 20.
[01:45:32] And I'm showing up at school 13 years old way in a buck 45.
[01:45:37] You're going to get, you're going to get physically controlled.
[01:45:40] And it's not fun.
[01:45:42] And so I didn't know.
[01:45:45] I was trying to figure it out.
[01:45:48] And there was no one to know how to fight back then unless you were a boxer, maybe a wrestler.
[01:45:52] But yeah, so definitely this is a huge piece helps you with, I think, I think kids that know how to fight are going to get in the lost less street fights.
[01:46:01] They're going to do a lot less stupid things to prove themselves because,
[01:46:05] guess what, they already have the essential.
[01:46:09] I'm all animalistic characteristic of physical domination and that goes a long way.
[01:46:16] Yeah.
[01:46:17] And we talked about this before.
[01:46:18] Back to the girls thing, getting your girls into it.
[01:46:24] You know how when you get into any kind of physical situation, even if you're in a crowd.
[01:46:28] And some of them start shoving someone else, not even you.
[01:46:30] And pull them you feel the force of somebody or someone's just all like on you or even if someone like,
[01:46:36] I don't know, tackles you or something like that. It's like this kind of imposed physical situation.
[01:46:41] And when you're into the Gigi, that's every day.
[01:46:44] So you get used to that real quick.
[01:46:46] And in fact, you get real comfortable with it.
[01:46:48] But as a girl, you're not trying to like win fight now.
[01:46:51] You know, I know Gigi, so I'm going to try win fights and beat up guys.
[01:46:54] That's not really what it's for for girls.
[01:46:56] It's more for knowing how to function, knowing where to be, where not to be because man, if you don't know, you just simply don't know.
[01:47:03] And also being totally right and then also being an accolade to the physical con.
[01:47:08] Yeah, when it happens.
[01:47:09] So what you say, you can't win, I mean, not looking to win fights.
[01:47:12] There's go watch YouTube.
[01:47:13] There's all kinds of videos of girls just working over guys.
[01:47:17] And I mean, in street fights, there's one particular where this girls just try to,
[01:47:21] our mock just choke.
[01:47:23] Just crushing this kid.
[01:47:24] Yeah, well, the truth is, if you learn Gigi, if someone knows Gigi,
[01:47:30] if someone doesn't, the chance of the person knowing Gigi,
[01:47:33] who winning the fight is very, very, very high.
[01:47:35] Yes, even if you're a girl, it's still applies to you.
[01:47:38] Of course, the girls at a physical disadvantage could be smaller, weaker, whatever.
[01:47:41] But like I said, Gigi, who's just this huge jump in ability is for his fights go.
[01:47:48] And you know something else, from a pure self defense perspective,
[01:47:53] if you, a lot of times, let's say a girl's not able to physically,
[01:47:57] let's say she's 100 pounds and she's a guy attacks her, that's 200 pounds.
[01:48:02] She might not be able to put him asleep.
[01:48:05] She might not be able to finish him, but she may able to be able to survive,
[01:48:10] defend the guy off for a minute and 30 seconds instead of two seconds,
[01:48:15] instead of four seconds instead of eight seconds.
[01:48:17] So that's what it takes for someone to hear for someone to see.
[01:48:20] So every second counts.
[01:48:22] And if you know Gigi, I guarantee you,
[01:48:25] it's, it's really hard to subdue somebody that knows some Gigi to if you don't know anything.
[01:48:30] You are going to have a hard time getting control them.
[01:48:33] They're going to be, and even if you're stronger than them, you'll be able to get a hold of them.
[01:48:37] Maybe eventually if there are a lot smaller, a lot weaker than you,
[01:48:39] but it's going to be a fight.
[01:48:40] And a lot of, a lot of you know, you read a lot of stories when in self defense situations,
[01:48:44] if the girl puts up a decent fight, the guy is not going to have any of it.
[01:48:48] You know, he's going to realize that he's not looking for that.
[01:48:50] He's not looking for a fight.
[01:48:51] He's looking for something else.
[01:48:52] And so the fight begins, he backs off.
[01:48:55] So yeah, absolutely, you know, applies for girls as well.
[01:48:58] And there's just a certain level of confidence.
[01:49:01] You know, when I've seen that, you know, my son's had a couple little scuffles,
[01:49:04] a couple that I've witnessed too, where, you know,
[01:49:08] he just was like not trying to,
[01:49:10] not trying to have a problem until someone just grabs him.
[01:49:13] And is obviously going to do trying to do something to him.
[01:49:15] And then that person's getting launched, you know, like,
[01:49:18] a perfect judo, because you're going to, you know,
[01:49:20] how hard is it to judo throw somebody that doesn't know any judo to do to it?
[01:49:23] So easy.
[01:49:24] So you see a kid fly through the air, hit the ground.
[01:49:26] You see my son, you know, just, like, there's no guard passing,
[01:49:29] because the person doesn't even know what the guard is.
[01:49:31] So it's just straight to mount.
[01:49:33] And then once you're in mount,
[01:49:34] the person has no idea what's happening.
[01:49:36] And, and they're completely controlled and they're getting put to sleep.
[01:49:39] That's it.
[01:49:40] It's as easy as that.
[01:49:41] Yeah, and it's so funny how you, this is the kind of the part that I forget,
[01:49:45] actually, every once in a while, where how you brought up
[01:49:48] when you shake someone's hand, you're always thinking about it, whatever.
[01:49:51] So that's, that's something too. That's why it's almost like if you don't know
[01:49:55] judo to, like, or for real fighting,
[01:49:58] there's not many out there, and there's not many, but even,
[01:50:01] we'll just say, if you don't know judo to,
[01:50:03] you might fall into this trap by thinking, well, you know,
[01:50:06] I might, you know, you never know.
[01:50:07] He's not on all the time, or he might not be ready for this,
[01:50:10] or, you know, all surprised him of the, like,
[01:50:12] this punch or something like this, and they won't give it its due credit.
[01:50:16] But the thing is when you learn judo to Brad, that's all you're thinking about.
[01:50:19] You're like, oh, fuck, I take this guy right here.
[01:50:21] 100% of the time. You can be laying in your, in your bed with your wife,
[01:50:26] and she'll be like, hey, give me a hug, and you're like,
[01:50:28] 100, 100, 100, there, yes, exactly the whole time.
[01:50:31] So you can't really, to surprise a guy who knows,
[01:50:34] you just, to surprise him is super hard.
[01:50:37] Like, you gotta do, from behind, I don't know,
[01:50:39] even if you see him from behind, you know what to do from behind.
[01:50:42] You know, you gotta, like, I don't know,
[01:50:44] hit him or something, really hard to knock him out one punch.
[01:50:46] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
[01:50:47] It's really hard to knock somebody out within the punch for me.
[01:50:50] Yeah, but that's so funny, because that, that is how it is.
[01:50:54] Even as like a high level guy, you're still like,
[01:50:58] it's always on your mind.
[01:50:59] Like, it's like you're walking around with this big,
[01:51:02] powerful, like, gun or something, like you're like,
[01:51:04] okay, who wants to get shot?
[01:51:06] Not that you want to shoot people specifically,
[01:51:08] but it's like this radar that's like, okay,
[01:51:11] who wants to get shot. Kind of thing.
[01:51:12] Because you're just ready, you're just ready to do it.
[01:51:15] Yeah, and to me, honestly, it's so instinctive at this point.
[01:51:20] Yeah, it's just part of every movement that you make is thinking about that.
[01:51:25] And you know, you ever had somebody that doesn't know you did to,
[01:51:28] like, maybe you haven't seen someone in a while.
[01:51:30] I've had that app, what I've seen seen someone for a while.
[01:51:32] Yes.
[01:51:33] And I mean, 20 years.
[01:51:34] So they have no idea what you did to us.
[01:51:36] We've got a completely different path in our lives.
[01:51:38] And they like, grab hold of you as if it was the old days.
[01:51:41] And you're going to have a tussle and it's edible.
[01:51:43] Yeah, it's just a four second, you know, spirit crushing maneuver of death.
[01:51:50] Yeah.
[01:51:51] And you're happy to do it too.
[01:51:52] You know, because as an adult, like, you know,
[01:51:54] I think anywhere past 26, 27 years old,
[01:51:58] it's hard to get away with like, getting into a wrestling match in public,
[01:52:01] or, you know, somewhere outside of the map.
[01:52:03] That's interesting.
[01:52:04] You might not have known that.
[01:52:06] But, yeah.
[01:52:08] I don't know, I think I speak for more than more people than just myself,
[01:52:11] but there's a part of your mind that kind of helped it.
[01:52:13] It happens just with your friend, you know, or something like that.
[01:52:16] Just see, you do it, of course.
[01:52:17] Always, always hoping for a scrap.
[01:52:20] You know what, ironically, back to the part where we're saying,
[01:52:23] it's kind of hard to surprise.
[01:52:25] Did you do it to guy ironically?
[01:52:26] The easiest time to surprise a Jiu-Jitsu guy is on the map.
[01:52:30] If you're another Jiu-Jitsu guy, what you do is you play like,
[01:52:33] oh, we're just going like, right now.
[01:52:35] And then you go hard.
[01:52:36] You know, so you can't really surprise them in public.
[01:52:40] You got to learn Jitsu, go on the map.
[01:52:43] You know, they'll make them think you're not rolling out.
[01:52:45] Then surprise.
[01:52:46] And you know, I think that's part of it is you become more aware.
[01:52:49] When you're talking, you've been talking about the past couple minutes,
[01:52:52] is awareness.
[01:52:53] And when you have Jiu-Jitsu in your brain,
[01:52:56] then it's true with boxing too, and Moetai,
[01:53:00] when you have that stuff in your brain,
[01:53:02] then you can't help but be aware of what's happening.
[01:53:05] And because it's in there.
[01:53:07] And it's like knowing that the color of the table is brown.
[01:53:10] Like you know what that person's body position is.
[01:53:13] You're looking and seeing that their stance is off balance.
[01:53:16] You're seeing an underhook exposed.
[01:53:18] You know, so you can't help.
[01:53:19] You can't take it away.
[01:53:20] So you're awareness increases.
[01:53:21] You also are aware of what problems can occur really quickly.
[01:53:24] So if you start, you know, if you're a girl,
[01:53:27] and you say, oh, wait a second, now I'm back into a corner where I can't get out.
[01:53:32] I don't like this feeling.
[01:53:33] It becomes it increases your awareness as a human.
[01:53:37] It makes you more aware of your surroundings.
[01:53:39] So there's so many benefits.
[01:53:41] Yeah.
[01:53:41] It's kind of ridiculous.
[01:53:43] Yeah, and it kind of, you kind of have almost like one level up from that.
[01:53:46] Or awareness that you're talking about because like how you're saying,
[01:53:48] it's part of that, even if you don't know how to fight,
[01:53:51] it's still kind of on your mind.
[01:53:52] You know, you like all guys have that kind of sort of sort of evaluate,
[01:53:55] especially if the guys close to your close to you.
[01:53:58] Yeah.
[01:53:59] Who you are.
[01:54:00] You know, whatever the stage,
[01:54:01] or whatever the scenario even, like if you're a scholar,
[01:54:04] and no one else is scholar, then another scholar walks in,
[01:54:06] woo, this evaluation.
[01:54:07] So that's how it is naturally smart this guy.
[01:54:10] Yeah.
[01:54:11] So, oh, so as a guy just naturally,
[01:54:14] you're going to have even more.
[01:54:15] It's like, you know what the color brown is or whatever,
[01:54:18] but just instinctually, you're always looking for brown.
[01:54:21] That's kind of what it's like.
[01:54:22] So now you, when you're doing these evaluations that are going to happen anyway,
[01:54:26] your jujitsu mind is right there at the front.
[01:54:30] Ready?
[01:54:31] The whole time.
[01:54:32] Yeah.
[01:54:33] Indeed, just thing.
[01:54:34] Dray magic to people.
[01:54:35] But that's not to be confused with like your aggressive and want to fight.
[01:54:38] That's the weird thing.
[01:54:39] It's like you don't want to actually fight with people because you don't feel the need to like,
[01:54:43] oh, I got a, I don't know,
[01:54:45] Yeah, you didn't think of it.
[01:54:46] Yeah, that's where the soul conversation started off.
[01:54:48] And also, I do not feel like you need to prove anything,
[01:54:50] but I literally am like, oh,
[01:54:52] I really want to get a fight with this guy.
[01:54:53] I'm like, my knuckles, you know,
[01:54:55] I'm probably going to rip my t-shirt,
[01:54:56] this guy's gonna be right there.
[01:54:57] This is really no.
[01:54:58] I fight every single day.
[01:55:01] I don't need,
[01:55:03] I don't care about this guy.
[01:55:05] This is a two second thing where I got to scuff up my knee on the pavement.
[01:55:09] And he's probably going to rip my shirt.
[01:55:12] And that's going to be a pain.
[01:55:13] And I got to deal with the cops if they show up.
[01:55:15] It's just a big pain.
[01:55:16] Where as if you don't fight and you have that opportunity,
[01:55:19] maybe you got the thing inside you.
[01:55:20] You don't know.
[01:55:21] Right.
[01:55:22] The payoff of the fight, right?
[01:55:23] If you don't know or if you're just insecure,
[01:55:25] the payoff of the fight and hopefully winning is bigger than all the
[01:55:29] detriments that you got to do.
[01:55:30] I obviously tell my puttin guys,
[01:55:32] will we ever see before the war started?
[01:55:35] Hey, you know, so guys,
[01:55:36] or overseas, what are you doing?
[01:55:37] You're drinking your out and bars,
[01:55:38] or causing problems or whatever.
[01:55:40] And I've, you know, before you do that,
[01:55:41] I'll be like, hey guys,
[01:55:42] if you feel like fighting tonight,
[01:55:43] come find me.
[01:55:44] Because if you want to fight, come find me and it'll be all be good.
[01:55:47] You know, you know, we'll fight.
[01:55:49] And it's all good.
[01:55:50] You won't get trouble.
[01:55:51] You won't get arrested.
[01:55:52] You won't get hurt.
[01:55:52] It's all good.
[01:55:53] You'll get a show.
[01:55:54] You're not going to get trouble for sure.
[01:55:55] You're not going to get trouble with the law,
[01:55:56] though you know what I mean?
[01:55:57] You're not going to get that kind of trouble.
[01:55:58] You're going to get trouble in your situation
[01:56:00] and you're in your positioning.
[01:56:01] It's going to be a trouble soon.
[01:56:03] So yeah, it's better to fight amongst yourself than to fight against
[01:56:06] the outsiders who are going to sue you,
[01:56:09] pull a knife out and stab you into throw whatever,
[01:56:12] right?
[01:56:13] You don't do that.
[01:56:14] Stay out of the street fights.
[01:56:16] Not worth it.
[01:56:17] You know,
[01:56:18] all right.
[01:56:19] I agree with it too though.
[01:56:20] I'm going to send you agree that it is the stabilizer.
[01:56:23] You don't even know how much you don't know.
[01:56:26] It's funny because we get a lot of people that have started training
[01:56:29] to get to.
[01:56:31] Good move.
[01:56:32] Yes.
[01:56:33] But they'll come on Twitter or on on the Facebook.
[01:56:36] And say,
[01:56:38] you know,
[01:56:39] A is started training to get to.
[01:56:41] Oh my god.
[01:56:42] I can't believe I need to train this all the time.
[01:56:45] I can't believe I got control.
[01:56:46] They always say how humiliating.
[01:56:48] And sometimes they say humbling.
[01:56:50] But sometimes I think even when they say humbling,
[01:56:52] they actually mean humiliating because they,
[01:56:54] you, that's the weird thing.
[01:56:56] When you're walking around on the earth without the knowledge,
[01:57:00] you think you look at other people.
[01:57:02] You think you know what?
[01:57:03] This guy knows,
[01:57:04] Do you get to?
[01:57:05] I heard this guy knows,
[01:57:06] you do it doesn't matter.
[01:57:07] I'm strong.
[01:57:08] I'm athletic.
[01:57:09] I'll just hit him in the neck or even even even.
[01:57:11] You know what?
[01:57:12] I'm just strong enough.
[01:57:13] He's not going to get my house.
[01:57:14] You're going to get my arm over there.
[01:57:15] Yeah.
[01:57:16] It's not going to work.
[01:57:17] I'll just pull my arm back.
[01:57:18] And you get on the mat.
[01:57:19] You go,
[01:57:19] Oh my lord.
[01:57:20] I have no control over this situation.
[01:57:22] This guy is effortlessly making me submit over and over and over again.
[01:57:27] That's when the reality hits.
[01:57:29] The reality hits doesn't end on the first time you tap.
[01:57:31] Because on the first time you tap you go,
[01:57:32] Oh, I'm, I'm going to,
[01:57:33] I'll just,
[01:57:34] I won't do that single movement again.
[01:57:36] I won't stick my head over there.
[01:57:38] Okay.
[01:57:38] So then you get your arm locked.
[01:57:39] Yeah.
[01:57:40] And then you get your foot locked.
[01:57:41] And then you get your knee locked.
[01:57:42] And then you get your knee locked.
[01:57:42] And then you get your knee.
[01:57:43] And then you get your knee.
[01:57:43] G-atine again.
[01:57:44] Then you get your,
[01:57:44] So you,
[01:57:45] It's just a lose lose lose lose lose lose lose lose.
[01:57:47] And then you go after,
[01:57:49] Usually it for me.
[01:57:50] It's like three to five times with somebody that's never trained to get to before three to five times before they realize like,
[01:57:55] Oh, I'm never,
[01:57:56] Because you know,
[01:57:57] When you tap a guy once that's never trained before.
[01:57:59] And he comes at you so hard again.
[01:58:01] He's mind.
[01:58:02] He thinks,
[01:58:02] And this time I'm going to get him.
[01:58:03] Yeah.
[01:58:04] And then we even come close.
[01:58:05] They don't even realize.
[01:58:06] Yeah.
[01:58:07] So yeah,
[01:58:07] Get on the mat man and learn learn the jjitsu.
[01:58:10] Yeah.
[01:58:11] Please cover the over,
[01:58:13] or please cover overcoming the frustrations of beginning to jjitsu.
[01:58:18] And this is coming from a 54 year old, by the way,
[01:58:21] But not quitting.
[01:58:22] Good, good for him.
[01:58:24] That's awesome.
[01:58:25] Glad you're picking up the jjitsu a 54 years old.
[01:58:28] Okay.
[01:58:29] So how do you, the frustrations of beginning jjitsu?
[01:58:31] And it is absolutely.
[01:58:32] If you have the wrong mindset,
[01:58:33] It's viciously frustrating.
[01:58:36] Because of everything we just talked about.
[01:58:37] And you think,
[01:58:38] Oh, I'll just do this.
[01:58:39] It's cold a bit harder.
[01:58:40] And I just won't put my arm there.
[01:58:41] And then I'll be able to win.
[01:58:42] You're not going to win.
[01:58:43] You are going to lose.
[01:58:44] You're going to lose over and over and over again.
[01:58:47] To people that are smaller than you.
[01:58:49] Weakier than you.
[01:58:50] Not as tough as you are.
[01:58:52] Literally not as tough as you are.
[01:58:54] Yeah.
[01:58:55] Not as tough as you are.
[01:58:56] You know, jjitsu has a faction of, of,
[01:58:59] Gnords for lack of a better word.
[01:59:01] Straight nerds.
[01:59:03] And no offense to the nerds out there.
[01:59:05] But, you know,
[01:59:06] people that are not physically active.
[01:59:08] And then some for some reason they fall into jjitsu at some point.
[01:59:12] And they, and they also,
[01:59:14] They've got a guy that's not tough.
[01:59:16] But they'll know the moves and I'll finish you.
[01:59:19] So that's so those the people you're going to lose to.
[01:59:21] So and it's a, it's a long, long, slow journey that takes a long time.
[01:59:28] Now that being said,
[01:59:31] If you train for a month and someone's train zero,
[01:59:35] that journey is not that long.
[01:59:36] You'll be that guy.
[01:59:37] Yeah.
[01:59:38] You will beat that guy.
[01:59:39] I mean, you know, again,
[01:59:40] you take two people.
[01:59:41] One of them knows jjitsu for a month.
[01:59:44] And one of them doesn't.
[01:59:45] That guy's going to win.
[01:59:46] I mean, you know,
[01:59:48] it's basically the same way,
[01:59:49] it's the same, you know,
[01:59:50] you can't have so many that's completely weak.
[01:59:52] But in six months,
[01:59:54] you're beating anybody that's untrained for the,
[01:59:57] you're beating 95% that maybe you're 99% that people are untrained.
[02:00:00] But as far as,
[02:00:02] like,
[02:00:03] you think you show up and in six months,
[02:00:06] you're going to be beating a blue belt.
[02:00:08] It's not happening.
[02:00:09] Yeah.
[02:00:10] Yeah.
[02:00:11] It's not happening.
[02:00:12] A beating a purple belt is not happening.
[02:00:14] You're not going to catch a purple belt in,
[02:00:17] in your first two or three years.
[02:00:20] Unless you got to somebody that doesn't.
[02:00:22] Or he lets you.
[02:00:23] Yeah.
[02:00:24] Of course.
[02:00:25] Yeah.
[02:00:26] In like,
[02:00:26] Glover,
[02:00:27] he'll, he'll let people put him in all kind of,
[02:00:29] I mean, he does that in companies.
[02:00:30] He just saw that I've met him more.
[02:00:31] So he's,
[02:00:32] he's,
[02:00:32] he's,
[02:00:32] he's,
[02:00:32] he's,
[02:00:32] he's,
[02:00:32] he's,
[02:00:32] he's,
[02:00:32] he's,
[02:00:32] he's,
[02:00:32] he's,
[02:00:32] he's,
[02:00:32] he's,
[02:00:32] he's,
[02:00:32] he's,
[02:00:32] he's,
[02:00:32] he's,
[02:00:32] he's,
[02:00:32] he's,
[02:00:32] he's,
[02:00:32] he's,
[02:00:32] he's,
[02:00:32] he's,
[02:00:32] he's,
[02:00:34] that's all kinds of crazy things happen.
[02:00:35] So yeah,
[02:00:35] can that happen of course,
[02:00:37] but as far as legitimately,
[02:00:39] taking someone down.
[02:00:40] Yeah.
[02:00:40] It's not going to happen.
[02:00:42] So, so that's all that's what I'm saying,
[02:00:43] as long as,
[02:00:44] slowly,
[02:00:45] slowly.
[02:00:46] Especially two because,
[02:00:47] everyone's on that bus.
[02:00:49] We've talked about this before.
[02:00:50] Everyone's on the bus getting better.
[02:00:51] So that blue belt that started that you started six months behind,
[02:00:54] or a year behind.
[02:00:55] So he's a blue belt.
[02:00:57] You're a year behind him.
[02:00:58] He's not stopping getting better.
[02:00:59] So, as you start to pursue
[02:01:01] his game.
[02:01:01] changing and improving so you're not going to get there.
[02:01:04] And then on top of that, when you do learn something new,
[02:01:09] it takes time to incorporate into your game.
[02:01:11] So if I taught you echo a new move tonight,
[02:01:14] as it hit here's this cool,
[02:01:15] it's here's this new setup for the Armlock
[02:01:18] and we drilled it 10 times.
[02:01:20] And you went now and started to apply that,
[02:01:22] it would make your game worse.
[02:01:25] Because you'd be trying to apply a move
[02:01:26] that you don't know 100% yet.
[02:01:28] Like you got some good solid moves
[02:01:30] that you do and those are, you know,
[02:01:32] those work really well.
[02:01:34] So when you start incorporating this new move,
[02:01:36] you don't know it well.
[02:01:38] You don't get it all together.
[02:01:40] So you're gonna fail out at 100 times.
[02:01:42] It's not gonna work 100 times before you get it.
[02:01:44] And by the way, every time you try to do it on me,
[02:01:46] I got on top and then I smashed you.
[02:01:47] And then I, so you're, you're sacrificing
[02:01:49] and it's in every time.
[02:01:50] So you're actually going backwards a little bit
[02:01:52] before you can go forward.
[02:01:54] So that's problematic and that's very, very frustrating.
[02:01:57] Occasionally you might learn something that,
[02:01:59] like, really improves your game dramatically,
[02:02:01] almost instantly that happens from time to time.
[02:02:03] So we'll say, hey, put your own position here
[02:02:05] or hey, you know, whatever the case may be.
[02:02:08] But generally when you incorporate something new,
[02:02:09] it can take some time.
[02:02:12] You're gonna get injuries.
[02:02:13] You're gonna get little injuries.
[02:02:14] You're gonna get big injuries.
[02:02:15] You're gonna be sore.
[02:02:16] You're gonna, so yes, you will be frustrated.
[02:02:18] So how do you counter all that?
[02:02:20] You just gotta embrace it.
[02:02:21] You gotta embrace all those things.
[02:02:23] You gotta enjoy all those things.
[02:02:26] And I hate to be cliche,
[02:02:27] but you gotta enjoy the journey.
[02:02:29] You gotta enjoy getting tapped out by somebody
[02:02:32] that's a, be amazed by that.
[02:02:35] Say, dang, how did that just happen?
[02:02:37] That is impressive.
[02:02:38] You know, say, hey, got a little war scar on my face.
[02:02:41] I got split the eye open.
[02:02:43] Okay, cool.
[02:02:44] Chick's takes scars.
[02:02:45] You know what I mean?
[02:02:46] Just gonna go, don't, don't, don't look at all that stuff
[02:02:50] as negative.
[02:02:51] Look at it as, you know what I'm saying?
[02:02:52] Don't rush to the end.
[02:02:54] Don't rush to the end.
[02:02:55] Don't be in rush to get there.
[02:02:57] Take your time and enjoy the sights
[02:02:59] that you're gonna go for.
[02:03:01] Also, I've said this before.
[02:03:04] Select your training partners carefully,
[02:03:05] especially like your 54 years old.
[02:03:07] You don't wanna be wrong with the 20 year old
[02:03:09] to stay right freak.
[02:03:10] That's going white belt trying to kill you.
[02:03:12] You wanna be wrong with a cool, mellow,
[02:03:15] purple belt that's wants to do GJ2 and train.
[02:03:20] And finally, I would just say, remember that GJ2
[02:03:25] should be fun.
[02:03:26] It should be all those other things,
[02:03:28] all those frustrated, all those challenges,
[02:03:29] all those things, all that humiliation and humor
[02:03:31] and getting humbled, but it should be a good time.
[02:03:34] You should have fun when you're doing GJ2.
[02:03:35] I know I do.
[02:03:36] Yeah, yeah, like a video game, right?
[02:03:38] I mean, you can get down for a couple of days, man.
[02:03:41] And I came back and had an injury
[02:03:43] that I figured out, took me a little while,
[02:03:44] I got my jacked up finger.
[02:03:46] It took me a little while to get the right,
[02:03:49] get the right apparatus to splint it properly and protect it,
[02:03:53] but tonight I train and I was so happy.
[02:03:58] I was so happy going in on the mat just saying yes.
[02:04:02] Yeah, that is how we're all these,
[02:04:05] all the junk parts that come with it were,
[02:04:08] cool, don't cool, junk, you know, like the four-ness,
[02:04:11] yeah, I got choked out of where,
[02:04:13] that's all part of the game, seems obvious, right?
[02:04:15] Yeah, it's all part of the game,
[02:04:16] but be happy that that's the game you're in.
[02:04:19] I mean, GJ2, basic, I mean, if you don't,
[02:04:20] do GJ2, this would be kind of an insight.
[02:04:24] Basically, all it is, if you go to a class,
[02:04:27] you go in, you may or may not warm up,
[02:04:29] you learn a move, whether it be a submission move,
[02:04:32] just a move, you learn a move, two moves,
[02:04:34] three moves, somethings, four moves,
[02:04:36] and then you cut to roll in.
[02:04:38] Straight up, you guys are fighting, no strikes,
[02:04:40] that's it, you're fighting, no strikes.
[02:04:42] If you, whatever moves you know,
[02:04:44] go ahead and do them while in real life,
[02:04:46] against this guy, that's it.
[02:04:47] If you don't know it, if that's your first day,
[02:04:50] and you learn one, two, three moves that first day,
[02:04:53] you better try to do those moves.
[02:04:54] That's it.
[02:04:55] So of course, you know, two, three moves
[02:04:56] that you learned once, by the way,
[02:04:58] and you're roll with someone who,
[02:05:00] even if he's still a wipe out to whatever,
[02:05:02] he knows those moves and then three, four more,
[02:05:04] and he's practiced some in real time or whatever.
[02:05:06] Of course, he's gonna get you.
[02:05:08] That's just how it works.
[02:05:09] But keep in mind, the more you go,
[02:05:11] the more you do the moves, the more moves you learn,
[02:05:12] the more you practice some in real life,
[02:05:14] the better you get at him.
[02:05:15] And you know, let's go ahead and just apply this to life as well.
[02:05:18] Because GJ2 is such a great metaphor for life.
[02:05:22] Whatever you're doing, whatever goal you're trying to achieve.
[02:05:25] If you're letting those frustrations,
[02:05:27] when you hit those obstacles,
[02:05:28] if you're letting them control you and get you down,
[02:05:31] that's the wrong attitude to have.
[02:05:33] Look at it as a learning opportunity.
[02:05:34] Look at it as something that's good to tapping,
[02:05:36] look at it as a chance for you to try something new,
[02:05:39] look at it as the journey that you're trying to,
[02:05:42] and by the way, anything that's easy to achieve,
[02:05:45] and you don't hit me obstacles,
[02:05:46] well, that's not worth it, right?
[02:05:48] That's not gonna get the full satisfaction
[02:05:51] that you want out of that.
[02:05:52] So in life as in GJ2,
[02:05:56] don't get frustrated, embrace those challenges
[02:05:59] because those are what is making this goal worthwhile.
[02:06:03] Yeah, man, I'm telling you when you,
[02:06:06] let's say you, we'll back to the avoiding frustrations,
[02:06:10] specifically, it does how you're saying training partners,
[02:06:13] that does make a big difference.
[02:06:14] Because sometimes, every once in a while,
[02:06:15] I've heard of people where their schedule doesn't allow them
[02:06:19] to catch the big in a class for example.
[02:06:22] So they're like, hey, I've no choice,
[02:06:23] I gotta do this more intermediate or advanced class.
[02:06:25] So they're the only white belt and the next guy
[02:06:29] even closest to him is like, advanced blue belt.
[02:06:31] So that's gonna be a steep learning curve,
[02:06:35] it's gonna be tough,
[02:06:36] because how are you gonna practice your moves
[02:06:38] in the wild?
[02:06:39] You won't get to work your offense.
[02:06:40] Yeah, that's really fun.
[02:06:41] Here's kind of the good thing, you get to work your defense.
[02:06:44] So once you do get the opportunity to exercise
[02:06:46] like your offense, whether you get another class
[02:06:48] or it just comes, but just takes longer, whatever,
[02:06:50] but how good your defense is gonna be?
[02:06:52] Yeah, and I actually, so from training with Dean
[02:06:54] for so many years,
[02:06:57] he's just got some positions that are brutal,
[02:07:00] brutal positions.
[02:07:01] And, for instance, his mount is outstanding.
[02:07:04] When he gets the mount,
[02:07:05] when anybody else that I've ever trained within my life
[02:07:09] has mounted with the exception, I guess, of Hicks and Gracie,
[02:07:13] I felt like, oh, it's not Dean, this is not,
[02:07:15] you know, this is not the whole of this area.
[02:07:17] Right, and not that I'm not that worried,
[02:07:18] I'm not trying to degrade people I've trained with,
[02:07:21] but that is a green has an incredible mount.
[02:07:23] And on top of that, Dean kind of knows my escapes.
[02:07:27] So whereas if I roll with a random other really good,
[02:07:29] you know, world of class, black belt,
[02:07:32] they might not know the particulars of my escape,
[02:07:34] Dean actually does know those,
[02:07:35] and he's good at it.
[02:07:37] So, so you're right in that,
[02:07:40] the more you train with people that are better than you,
[02:07:42] your defense is gonna be very good,
[02:07:44] because like when you mount me,
[02:07:46] I mean, you got a good solid mount,
[02:07:48] but I'm like, I'm like, okay, cool,
[02:07:50] I'm gonna be out of this and I'll,
[02:07:51] in a short period of time with no real threats.
[02:07:54] Keep telling me.
[02:07:55] And, and the, you've had, I mean,
[02:07:58] I'm sure it's the same way,
[02:07:59] if you've had Dean mounted on you,
[02:08:00] I mean, my mount, because I don't have a great mount,
[02:08:02] my mount is nothing compared to Dean's, nothing.
[02:08:06] Yeah, yeah, fully, yeah, and that's absolutely true.
[02:08:09] And at the same time though, so if you fall in,
[02:08:13] and I don't wanna say it's like a small,
[02:08:15] because it's pretty big chance where if you enter a beginner class,
[02:08:18] there's gonna be a guy who's just as much of a beginner as you,
[02:08:21] and that's where you can really flourish,
[02:08:23] because you can practice moves, your new moves,
[02:08:28] which I mean, for lack of a better term,
[02:08:29] your junk moves, you know,
[02:08:30] on junk people.
[02:08:31] I will say this though.
[02:08:33] Whoever you roll with, whether they're worse than you,
[02:08:36] the same as you are better than you,
[02:08:37] you're gonna get a lot out of it.
[02:08:38] Of course, all three of them.
[02:08:40] So you should roll with all three of those types of people.
[02:08:42] I have a tendency to wanna usually roll with guys
[02:08:46] that are, you know, like good,
[02:08:49] and I should spend more, and I do,
[02:08:52] I mean, I definitely, I train with everybody
[02:08:53] that we got at the gym, all training everybody.
[02:08:55] But I always prefer, of course.
[02:08:58] I guess I shouldn't say, of course,
[02:08:59] because there are people that are like white,
[02:09:01] belt hunters.
[02:09:02] Yeah, I wanna go out there and be bullies.
[02:09:05] I'm not like that, I'd rather get bullied, right?
[02:09:07] I wanna get, I wanna feel the,
[02:09:10] I wanna get after it, you know?
[02:09:11] Yeah.
[02:09:12] But you definitely get benefit from training
[02:09:15] with people that are better than you,
[02:09:16] worse than you, and the same as you.
[02:09:18] Because you practice one of them,
[02:09:20] you're practicing defense,
[02:09:21] one of them, you're practicing pure offense,
[02:09:23] and someone that's equal than you,
[02:09:24] you guys are practicing your setups,
[02:09:26] and your approaches, and you gotta learn how to defend,
[02:09:29] and do offense and defense at the same time.
[02:09:31] So it's all good, bro.
[02:09:34] That's basically the concept here,
[02:09:35] bro. Yes, get after it, consider that scenario,
[02:09:38] bro with, and you're talking from an ideal standpoint,
[02:09:40] bro, with people better than you, same as you,
[02:09:42] worse than you, or you know, not as good as you.
[02:09:45] For a beginner, that's not really the option.
[02:09:47] The worst thing you guys, that's not an option
[02:09:49] for a beginner, really, and also,
[02:09:51] there's no one to support them.
[02:09:52] Well, as far as overcoming the frustrations or whatever,
[02:09:55] it is a good situation where you can get in
[02:09:58] with guys, just as beginner as you.
[02:10:00] And I hope that they hang around this after a certain
[02:10:03] amount of time, those guys who aren't,
[02:10:05] as new or, or, I could, I could see where it could
[02:10:08] become frustrating.
[02:10:09] If you were the guy that you're someone
[02:10:11] earlier, let's say a guy that's, you have to work late,
[02:10:13] and you can only go to the advanced class.
[02:10:15] And all of the sudden, you think you're
[02:10:16] just just getting crushed.
[02:10:18] Yes, and I can't learn this, really.
[02:10:20] Yeah, you know, it's like I'm getting
[02:10:21] distanced to understand, but yeah, that's, that's a good point.
[02:10:24] So keep in mind that if you're in that situation,
[02:10:27] it's okay, you're gonna, you're gonna,
[02:10:29] when you eventually get to roll with people
[02:10:31] that are more your skill level,
[02:10:33] you will be, you'll be that much better off.
[02:10:36] Yeah, yeah, for sure.
[02:10:38] And, and watch the first time you tap someone out
[02:10:40] with a move that you learned.
[02:10:42] Oh.
[02:10:42] Oh.
[02:10:44] Celebrate that, did you?
[02:10:46] Yeah, that's a good, it's a good time.
[02:10:48] It's a terrible one.
[02:10:50] Next question.
[02:10:52] Jockel, how do you balance the idea of checking the
[02:10:56] ego while in an interview scenario where you need to
[02:10:59] talk about yourself?
[02:11:00] Okay, so good question.
[02:11:03] I would say in that situation,
[02:11:06] then that's something that it's not just an interview
[02:11:08] situation where you're gonna need to do that.
[02:11:10] I mean, you're dealing with your, your,
[02:11:13] superiors, you know, throughout the course of your career,
[02:11:17] whatever that may be, you're constantly interacting
[02:11:19] with people and you're gonna want to make an impression.
[02:11:23] So I think one of the best ways to do this is
[02:11:26] instead of you speaking about why you're so awesome,
[02:11:32] just state facts of, let's say accomplishments
[02:11:36] and let them speak for themselves.
[02:11:40] In other words, you know, you wouldn't wanna say,
[02:11:46] I am the best project manager in the entire world.
[02:11:49] Mm-hmm.
[02:11:50] Right, that's not, that sounds ego centric.
[02:11:55] You know, instead you'd say, you know,
[02:11:58] I got this, we had a $38 million project,
[02:12:01] got it done on time, under budget,
[02:12:03] ahead of schedule and when I got done with that,
[02:12:05] when they moved me to another project that was off track,
[02:12:07] and we got that one back on schedule and back on track as well.
[02:12:11] So that's the kind of experience that I've had
[02:12:14] and I love to bring that here to this company.
[02:12:16] Right, so you're not, you're not,
[02:12:19] you know, there's a hint of, hey, this is what I did.
[02:12:22] I can get some stuff done, but you're not saying, listen,
[02:12:24] I'm better than the people you currently have,
[02:12:26] so you should hire me because I'm the best,
[02:12:28] because you don't wanna be that.
[02:12:31] And you know, so yeah, just build, think about it
[02:12:35] you know, before you go in, what, what experience
[02:12:38] that you have represents the good qualities that you have.
[02:12:42] So then you can say, if they say, you know,
[02:12:44] how are you at meeting timelines?
[02:12:46] You don't say, I am perfect and I never late.
[02:12:48] I'm dope.
[02:12:49] You just say, you say, well, you know,
[02:12:52] as far as meeting timelines, here's a bunch of projects
[02:12:55] that I got completed on time, the only one that I missed
[02:12:58] was one that we had to roll back as whatever,
[02:13:00] that we are actually showing a little bit more humility.
[02:13:02] You're saying, hey, here's what happened.
[02:13:03] You're being logical about it.
[02:13:04] And you know, speaking of that,
[02:13:05] I actually got a good question that's similar to this one
[02:13:09] about what's the best way to interview people
[02:13:13] to see if they can be in a leadership position.
[02:13:17] And this is really hard, this is really hard,
[02:13:19] because it's really hard to interview,
[02:13:21] and working at work with all kinds of different companies.
[02:13:23] And everybody always says, you know, hey,
[02:13:25] what's the best way to interview?
[02:13:26] And man, I interviewed this guy and he seemed so great
[02:13:28] or I interviewed this woman and she seemed incredible
[02:13:30] and her paper looked great, you know,
[02:13:33] she looked great on paper and we hired her
[02:13:34] and she's a disaster or he's a disaster,
[02:13:36] whatever the case may be.
[02:13:38] Because there's people that are very good interviewer.
[02:13:41] She's right, I mean, there's people that can interview you well.
[02:13:43] They have the gift the gap, they can be us their way
[02:13:46] through anything and make themselves sound good.
[02:13:48] So it can be really hard to identify if someone's good
[02:13:52] is actually gonna be fit for a leadership,
[02:13:55] it's not really any position.
[02:13:56] So one of the things that I always tell people to do
[02:13:59] is when you go into these, when you wanna ask interview questions,
[02:14:02] ask them scenario-based questions.
[02:14:05] And say, okay, here's what's going on.
[02:14:06] You got these three people in your department
[02:14:09] and one of the people has come to you
[02:14:14] and said that they think there might be something
[02:14:16] illegal going on with the other two.
[02:14:18] What actions do you take?
[02:14:20] And you know, have a scenario built out
[02:14:22] that you can actually talk through
[02:14:24] and see where they go and see what their mind said is
[02:14:26] and see what they're gonna develop as a plan
[02:14:28] and see how they would actually plan.
[02:14:29] So it's a great way of figuring out how people think.
[02:14:34] And then, you know, even that's not a guarantee
[02:14:37] because there's people that can navigate those type of answers
[02:14:41] as well.
[02:14:42] So you know, one thing you can do is hire people
[02:14:43] on a little bit of a trial basis.
[02:14:45] And that can be difficult in some situations
[02:14:46] where people are walking away from one job
[02:14:47] and two other job and they're not gonna do it
[02:14:49] on a 90 day trial basis.
[02:14:50] But when you do have that opportunity,
[02:14:51] it's a good thing to do as well.
[02:14:55] But hey, so going back to the first question
[02:14:57] about keeping your ego in check and an interview,
[02:15:00] like I said, be confident but not cocky
[02:15:04] and let the facts of your experience
[02:15:06] speak for your abilities rather than be it in your own chest.
[02:15:11] Be it in your own chest.
[02:15:13] Yeah, so it's almost like,
[02:15:15] I mean, correct me from wrong here.
[02:15:16] So you essentially, even if you're talking yourself up,
[02:15:21] you just simply state the facts.
[02:15:24] That's it.
[02:15:25] You just state the facts.
[02:15:25] Don't say you're opinion about it.
[02:15:26] Like just like just simply state the facts.
[02:15:29] Yeah, here's what I did.
[02:15:30] You know, right, we turned this project around.
[02:15:32] We got it on track and on budget
[02:15:34] and that's the type of,
[02:15:36] that's the type of experience that I have
[02:15:37] in those situations.
[02:15:38] Right, just like how you're saying,
[02:15:40] like even if someone had got like an award
[02:15:42] to be the best whatever.
[02:15:45] Sales are in the year.
[02:15:46] That right, sales are in the year,
[02:15:47] the best whatever of the year.
[02:15:49] And then like to say that in a factual way would be,
[02:15:53] I was recognized as the best guy in the world.
[02:15:55] Instead of saying, I'm the best guy in the world.
[02:15:57] Here's my award to prove it.
[02:15:59] You know, so it's like you're seeing the fact
[02:16:00] that you were recognized.
[02:16:02] Yeah, yeah.
[02:16:03] Not so much the fact.
[02:16:04] That's a very good way of doing it.
[02:16:06] Stick to the facts, right?
[02:16:07] Just the facts.
[02:16:08] Yeah, sure next question.
[02:16:11] How do you stay humble when you know you have better
[02:16:16] skill sets than others?
[02:16:18] You seem humble with all that you've accomplished.
[02:16:22] Well, this is just what, like in general,
[02:16:24] just how do you stay humble when you know you have
[02:16:27] better skill sets than others?
[02:16:29] And then you say that I seem humble with all that
[02:16:32] I've accomplished, which is actually,
[02:16:35] it's funny when I read that.
[02:16:38] Like it's not, I'm sure that for the dude
[02:16:42] is asking this question, he's thinking I accomplished
[02:16:45] all this stuff and it's not, I don't feel that way.
[02:16:47] Like first of all, there's always somebody
[02:16:50] that's better than you.
[02:16:52] That's, that I guarantee it.
[02:16:53] There's someone that's done more than you.
[02:16:55] There's someone that's had better experience
[02:16:56] or someone that's accomplished more.
[02:16:58] And if you are truly the master of something,
[02:17:06] whatever one thing, you're a true master of.
[02:17:10] There's gonna be people that are a lot better
[02:17:13] at other things than you.
[02:17:14] So you might be the master of one particular thing,
[02:17:18] but you have to respect the fact
[02:17:21] that people are gonna be masters at other things
[02:17:25] or better than you.
[02:17:26] And so if you're super strong, that's great.
[02:17:29] Let's see you run a marathon.
[02:17:30] If you're super flexible, awesome,
[02:17:33] how much can you dead left?
[02:17:35] If you're smart, that's great.
[02:17:37] You're smart academically.
[02:17:38] Let's check out your common sense
[02:17:40] and see where all that's at.
[02:17:41] You know, so you're gonna be good at one thing,
[02:17:45] but you're gonna have failed in other areas
[02:17:48] or have weaknesses in other areas.
[02:17:49] And so you just have to keep that in check.
[02:17:54] And I'll tell you, I recognize why I've been successful.
[02:18:03] For one thing, been surrounded with great people,
[02:18:05] for other being lucky in certain situations
[02:18:08] that I've been in certain times,
[02:18:09] and going back to the Jitsu a little bit.
[02:18:13] It's a good example because just because I can beat someone
[02:18:18] in Jitsu, it doesn't mean that I'm a better person.
[02:18:24] Yeah, it does.
[02:18:26] It doesn't mean that I'm a better person.
[02:18:28] What it means, basically, is that I happen to get
[02:18:33] into this random fringe sport before they did.
[02:18:37] And I spent more time on the map than they did.
[02:18:39] That's what it means.
[02:18:40] It doesn't make me better person.
[02:18:41] And I'll tell you what, it goes with,
[02:18:43] you know, if you feel like you're smarter than someone,
[02:18:47] it's probably because you've had the opportunity
[02:18:50] to study a subject or you've had a bunch of education
[02:18:53] on something, you've dove into some subjects
[02:18:55] so that might make you seem smarter.
[02:18:57] Whereas if they applied themselves in that particular,
[02:18:59] because what they were applying themselves is something else.
[02:19:01] So yeah, stay, you gotta stay humble with that.
[02:19:07] And also, we talked about this,
[02:19:10] when you, oh, you don't, I am smarter than this person.
[02:19:14] We'll guess what, there's something
[02:19:15] that they're better than you.
[02:19:17] And what is it?
[02:19:18] You might be smarter than them, I guess what?
[02:19:20] Maybe it's a guy we talked about earlier,
[02:19:21] where I'm smarter as I could be,
[02:19:23] guess what, this person can physically take me down
[02:19:25] and dominate me, and that's horrible.
[02:19:27] Or they're better at whatever, better athletically,
[02:19:29] or some people are really good craftsmen with their hands.
[02:19:32] I mean, there's so many different things
[02:19:33] that you can be skilled at.
[02:19:35] And if you start thinking that yourself
[02:19:39] that you're better than other people,
[02:19:43] you're gonna have issues because in the long run,
[02:19:47] you wanna stay humble, just stay alive,
[02:19:50] because life will humble you.
[02:19:52] Life is hard, and if you're pushing hard,
[02:19:55] and you're driving hard, and you're trying to achieve a lot,
[02:19:59] you're not always gonna win.
[02:20:00] I don't care who you are, you're gonna get humble.
[02:20:02] It's gonna be hard.
[02:20:03] So many, so many people that are successful,
[02:20:06] they've got some hard luck stories along the way
[02:20:09] of things that they had to push through
[02:20:10] and overcome in order to get there.
[02:20:12] They got humble.
[02:20:13] And if you're winning every single time,
[02:20:18] then you're not your goals or height enough.
[02:20:22] So step those up.
[02:20:24] So, you know, I appreciate the kind of comment,
[02:20:28] but man, it's not hard to be humble.
[02:20:31] When you just take, like maybe someone,
[02:20:34] and people always think, oh, oh, he's a Navy seal, whatever.
[02:20:39] You know, there's a lot of seals
[02:20:43] that are more badass than me,
[02:20:45] that done more deployments,
[02:20:47] that have gotten after it more than me.
[02:20:49] And I know that, that's awesome.
[02:20:51] I mean, good, good for them.
[02:20:54] You know, they got after it, good.
[02:20:59] So I don't feel like, oh, I did more than everybody.
[02:21:02] No, there's no one like that.
[02:21:04] There's no one like that, even, you know,
[02:21:07] Mikey Thornton, who won't see all that
[02:21:08] one of the metal varnish, awesome guy of,
[02:21:11] you know, just to just to, you know,
[02:21:12] he's a hero, but if you know,
[02:21:16] he gets interviewed,
[02:21:16] if it's watched a bunch of interviewed here
[02:21:18] and heard him talk, he's like, you know,
[02:21:20] he's like, oh, you know, you got the metal varnish
[02:21:22] that's not mine.
[02:21:23] It's my guys, you know, it's a guy that I was with,
[02:21:26] represents all.
[02:21:27] So, there's a guy like who's gonna be,
[02:21:30] if there's anyone in the world that needs to,
[02:21:32] that could not be humble, maybe it's Mikey Thornton.
[02:21:36] But guess what, Mikey Thornton,
[02:21:37] he's as humble as they come,
[02:21:39] because you know what, he also has been humbled by combat,
[02:21:42] because he realizes things that he tried to do
[02:21:44] that he didn't get done.
[02:21:46] There's lives he tried to save that he couldn't save.
[02:21:48] So, you're gonna, there's no doubt
[02:21:51] if you're living the right life,
[02:21:54] you're gonna be humbled by it.
[02:21:55] And there's always, always, always gonna be somebody
[02:21:58] that's better than you that's done by the way.
[02:22:02] What does being cocky get you anyways?
[02:22:04] What does that turn you into?
[02:22:05] What, I talked about something,
[02:22:08] what is over confidence gets you start cutting corners,
[02:22:10] you start slack, I mean, it's just ridiculous.
[02:22:13] So, you gotta stay humble, you gotta stay hungry
[02:22:16] if you, if you wanna stay in the game
[02:22:18] and believe me, you wanna stay in the game.
[02:22:21] If you wanna stay in the game.
[02:22:23] Did you think that, like, and I can't,
[02:22:28] I mean, I don't know if, maybe this is where
[02:22:30] this even the question is coming from, but,
[02:22:33] if, you know, when you're insecure and you're just,
[02:22:37] like, everything's a competition,
[02:22:39] like, just in life, it's like,
[02:22:41] it goes beyond just what you're into.
[02:22:43] It's just like, if someone's better than me,
[02:22:45] for it makes me mad, it makes you uneasy or whatever.
[02:22:48] It's like this insecurity kind of thing.
[02:22:50] So, if you look at everything, it's just this big life
[02:22:53] compared, like, I gotta beat that guy,
[02:22:55] I gotta be better than them.
[02:22:56] So, when you are better than them,
[02:22:58] it's like you're still looking at this competition,
[02:23:00] like, you know, like, you're not on my level,
[02:23:03] so you don't deserve to be treated.
[02:23:05] It's kind of like, maybe this is a good analogy,
[02:23:08] maybe not, but like in Gigietsu,
[02:23:09] where if you roll with a white belt, you don't go hard.
[02:23:12] You don't get satisfaction or whatever.
[02:23:13] So, in the Gigietsu competition arena,
[02:23:16] you're not giving them the respect.
[02:23:18] You're not going all out like you would,
[02:23:21] you're not respecting his farm bar.
[02:23:24] If you are, you're smashing him, no satisfaction,
[02:23:26] you know, whatever.
[02:23:26] It's in that specific competition setting.
[02:23:29] But if you're just an insecure person,
[02:23:31] where you think that all life is like just one big competition,
[02:23:34] oh, you gotta smash that person.
[02:23:35] Yeah, and if you're not worthy of my smashing,
[02:23:37] it's like, I don't even treat you,
[02:23:39] like you should be on the mat with you in a single.
[02:23:42] But, maybe I mean, do you think that maybe that's where
[02:23:45] some of that comes from?
[02:23:46] Like, if you're having trouble, like, being humble,
[02:23:50] it's kind of like, I'm just better than you in life.
[02:23:52] Yeah, it's probably just kind of,
[02:23:53] just to living from, in its insecurity.
[02:23:55] But there's also a, there's a dichotomy there too,
[02:23:58] because man, I like to win.
[02:24:01] Like, like, no doubt about it.
[02:24:02] I like to win.
[02:24:04] And the dichotomy of it is,
[02:24:05] is that I also don't literally don't care.
[02:24:09] Like, if I get beat, I'm like, okay, well,
[02:24:12] what can I do to get better?
[02:24:13] It's not, I don't feel this despair
[02:24:20] because I lost losing actually kind of motivates me more.
[02:24:23] Right, yeah.
[02:24:24] As opposed to getting angry and the worst thing that happens
[02:24:28] is people decide they're not going to compete, right?
[02:24:30] They're not going to compete in the game of life
[02:24:32] because they didn't win or they don't feel like they can win.
[02:24:34] So they go, ah, you know what, I'm just going to,
[02:24:37] if I'm just going to back off, I'm just not going to participate
[02:24:39] in the game.
[02:24:40] But getting the game, getting the game,
[02:24:44] yeah, huh.
[02:24:45] So maybe it comes from not understanding what that means
[02:24:51] when you win and stuff.
[02:24:56] I get, I guess.
[02:24:57] You know, like, let's say like, like,
[02:24:59] the fight back to the fighting situation
[02:25:00] where about, you know, being a secure part
[02:25:03] of the male balancing and real psyche.
[02:25:05] If you know that you've achieved these skills,
[02:25:08] have these skills to win people, you know,
[02:25:10] who don't have your skill set,
[02:25:12] you don't want to fight them.
[02:25:14] So you're just like whatever.
[02:25:15] But let's say like, you have a better skill set.
[02:25:18] Yet you're still blowing your horn about your skill set.
[02:25:21] You're not humble about it.
[02:25:23] It's like it comes from maybe, I don't know,
[02:25:25] some of the things.
[02:25:26] There's no doubt there can be some insecurity
[02:25:28] that charges that makes people super competitive
[02:25:34] beyond the healthy, compared to like in life.
[02:25:37] Like I'm just in life, you know, no matter what,
[02:25:41] which again, there's people that are that way,
[02:25:43] myself included.
[02:25:45] And but again, the dichotomy is,
[02:25:48] I don't think you're like that.
[02:25:49] No, no, I know I am.
[02:25:51] Well, I know I am.
[02:25:53] Remember echelon front, remember the logo?
[02:25:55] Yeah, right.
[02:25:57] And I'm gonna post this on Twitter too.
[02:25:59] Jockel made the original echelon front logo.
[02:26:02] This is like long time ago.
[02:26:03] Yeah, yeah.
[02:26:04] And you're like, hey, you know, this is the logo,
[02:26:06] something like this.
[02:26:07] And then basically, but you didn't care that it was junk.
[02:26:11] No, no, but I all I want to do is get you the idea.
[02:26:14] You weren't competing with me.
[02:26:16] But you drew an idol, but like it,
[02:26:18] like as someone who's competing in everything in life,
[02:26:19] like if you draw something and I draw something,
[02:26:21] you're like, I want to make my better.
[02:26:23] No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.
[02:26:23] But well, see, I wanted to win with the idea,
[02:26:27] not with the skill, the idea.
[02:26:28] The idea.
[02:26:29] I wanted to win the war.
[02:26:30] Not the short-term battles like who can draw this thing better.
[02:26:34] The war was who comes up with a strategic victory,
[02:26:38] which the icon and the symbol for echelon front
[02:26:43] is the one that I drew.
[02:26:45] I liked it.
[02:26:46] Ha ha.
[02:26:48] Sir, yes.
[02:26:49] I didn't care that it looked like junk,
[02:26:51] because I was, did it with your hood post,
[02:26:53] so that's pretty funny.
[02:26:54] I did it on PowerPoint with like a crayon,
[02:26:57] looks like a crayon, because I didn't want to take one time with it.
[02:27:00] I know, I knew that that thing would take you 15 minutes
[02:27:03] to make on your, what is it, AI, ill, illistory,
[02:27:07] yeah, man, no, long time.
[02:27:08] And I was like, that might have been,
[02:27:10] don't be mad at me.
[02:27:12] That's probably the first logo that I've actually made.
[02:27:16] Maybe.
[02:27:17] There you go.
[02:27:18] It was very successful.
[02:27:19] Yeah, whoo.
[02:27:21] Thanks for trusting me.
[02:27:23] Next question.
[02:27:25] What do you do when you have two extreme ownership believers
[02:27:32] that have to go against each other?
[02:27:35] Ooh.
[02:27:36] Sounds like a big challenging question,
[02:27:40] but it actually shouldn't be because if you think about this,
[02:27:43] if you truly think about this,
[02:27:44] this should not be an issue, and here's why,
[02:27:47] we go against each other, against each other.
[02:27:51] So what are the goals?
[02:27:53] Are these two people on the same team?
[02:27:55] I'm assuming that they're on the same team, right?
[02:27:57] They're on the same team.
[02:27:58] So if they're on the same team, and we want to win,
[02:28:02] we have the same goals we want to win,
[02:28:05] but we won't work together.
[02:28:07] Because if the goal is to win,
[02:28:09] and we both want to win,
[02:28:12] why would we be going against each other?
[02:28:15] We are not taking actual extreme ownership.
[02:28:19] Because if you and I were had opposing ideas,
[02:28:21] but we had the same long term goal,
[02:28:23] I'm going to take ownership and say,
[02:28:24] all right, Echo, we got to come to terms here,
[02:28:25] we're going to work this out, we're going to figure it out.
[02:28:27] And if you were doing the same thing,
[02:28:28] you'd be like, yeah, absolutely.
[02:28:29] Let's sit down, let's figure this out,
[02:28:30] let's figure out which one would be the best ones to take
[02:28:31] to market, let's do it to market system.
[02:28:32] We're going to figure out a real solution,
[02:28:34] because we're taking ownership of it.
[02:28:36] So what's the little nugget that's getting into the system here
[02:28:39] in screwing things up into 80 to ego, 100%.
[02:28:43] And I will say this.
[02:28:45] Occasionally, the ideal extreme ownership can be very poorly
[02:28:51] and very incorrectly interpreted as micro management
[02:28:55] in ego media.
[02:28:56] Meaning, I'm going to own this, I own this, this is mine, right?
[02:29:01] We're not, that's not what extreme ownership is at all.
[02:29:05] It's, you've got to own everything,
[02:29:08] but you don't feel the intrinsic need to do everything, right?
[02:29:17] Because you own, it's like owning the outcome
[02:29:22] and owning the progress and owning the steps along the way
[02:29:27] and owning the responsibility of mission achievement,
[02:29:30] it doesn't mean that you own each individual step
[02:29:34] and you have to make it your way.
[02:29:36] That's not extreme ownership, that's micro management.
[02:29:40] But, you know, extreme ownership is about leadership
[02:29:45] and decentralized command
[02:29:48] that using indirect tactics to make things happen
[02:29:51] and owning the outcome.
[02:29:54] So that's why, when you have two people
[02:29:57] that were truly about like, hey, I'm going to own this.
[02:30:02] I'm going to have the attitude to extreme ownership
[02:30:04] if you and I have the attitude to extreme ownership,
[02:30:07] we're not going to fight over anything
[02:30:08] because we have the same long term goal.
[02:30:11] And if you come up with a better idea of how to get there,
[02:30:14] I'm going to say, oh, echo, awesome job.
[02:30:18] That's a great way we're going to get to where we want to go.
[02:30:21] We own that outcome, we're going to make it happen.
[02:30:24] Boom, I'm going to support you.
[02:30:26] The only time it's going to be a problem
[02:30:28] is if I have an ego and then you have an ego.
[02:30:31] When we both have an ego issue,
[02:30:34] and usually one person with a big ego,
[02:30:39] that that inflames other people's use.
[02:30:43] Because if I say, hey, echo,
[02:30:45] I got a great plan for how to do this.
[02:30:46] We need to execute it my way.
[02:30:48] There's a little bit of ego coming out of this.
[02:30:50] Because now your ego was down,
[02:30:53] but I wasn't even ready.
[02:30:53] What do you mean your way?
[02:30:55] Wait a second, just right there, now we got a thing.
[02:30:57] Now we got some cop kind of issue going.
[02:30:59] We're now we're working against each other
[02:31:02] instead of working together.
[02:31:03] So that is absolutely problematic.
[02:31:08] And I guess to say, to put this in a nutshell,
[02:31:11] the way if you're using the principle
[02:31:15] of extreme ownership, the most important thing
[02:31:18] you need to take extreme ownership of is your own ego.
[02:31:23] And put that thing in check.
[02:31:26] Yeah, it seems like the extreme ownership,
[02:31:30] as far as owning it is essentially
[02:31:32] taking responsibility like at all costs kind of thing
[02:31:35] for more like the bad stuff that happens.
[02:31:38] Oh absolutely bad stuff.
[02:31:39] Absolutely bad stuff.
[02:31:40] But you know, but you're going to take because absolutely,
[02:31:43] if you and I do something great together
[02:31:46] and I was the leader, I don't go, yes, that's right.
[02:31:49] I was the, you know, you say, hey, first of all,
[02:31:53] this is mostly on echo.
[02:31:54] He did most of the work.
[02:31:55] He did all the, you know, that's what I'm going to say.
[02:31:57] I'm not going to say, no, this is mine.
[02:31:59] But when something goes wrong, obviously,
[02:32:01] I don't say no, is that a goes fault?
[02:32:02] No, I say, hey, this is my fault.
[02:32:05] So you know, I should have done double check on the audio
[02:32:07] before we started the podcast because, you know,
[02:32:09] we wanted to make sure that thing was recording.
[02:32:12] Right.
[02:32:13] I don't say no echo drop the ball.
[02:32:15] Yeah, I don't do that.
[02:32:16] I don't have.
[02:32:17] I say, hey, you should have double checked.
[02:32:18] So that's if you truly have two people
[02:32:22] that have real ownership and they put the re-goes in check,
[02:32:25] this is literally not an issue.
[02:32:27] Right.
[02:32:28] So they, yeah, this isn't even a question for that right,
[02:32:30] because they don't go against each other.
[02:32:32] No, they're going with each other.
[02:32:33] And so what are the chances that you, as a person,
[02:32:37] that's really put your ego in check
[02:32:38] and you're exercising your ownership?
[02:32:40] What are the chances that you work
[02:32:44] with another person that is exactly
[02:32:47] with the same mindset taking ownership?
[02:32:50] But no ego.
[02:32:51] What are the chances that they're actually pretty slim?
[02:32:53] This is not easy to do.
[02:32:54] This, it's simple, not easy, right?
[02:32:57] So that means you have to be even more proactive
[02:33:02] in helping adapt to their ego scenario that's happening
[02:33:07] and when echo says, hey, we need to do this my way.
[02:33:09] I'll be like, hey, you know what echo?
[02:33:10] Let's take a look at it.
[02:33:11] Absolutely, you've always come up with great plans.
[02:33:13] Let's take a look at what this one is here.
[02:33:15] And all of a sudden, I've disarmed you a little bit.
[02:33:18] You're feeling good about it, you're like,
[02:33:19] oh yeah, that's right.
[02:33:20] Jock was gonna listen to me, because that's great.
[02:33:22] That's exactly what I want you to think.
[02:33:24] It's exactly what I want you to think.
[02:33:26] So you're gonna have work to do.
[02:33:28] You're gonna have work to do.
[02:33:29] That's what that's what, that's what it is.
[02:33:32] It's a challenge, it's work.
[02:33:34] But when you have the basic principles,
[02:33:36] the nation say basically,
[02:33:37] you have the fundamental principles,
[02:33:39] they are going to work well for you.
[02:33:42] And when they're not working well for you,
[02:33:44] don't get mad at the other person and blame
[02:33:46] there you go, look at your own ego,
[02:33:48] because you can adjust an adapt and maneuver
[02:33:52] and get that person disarmed.
[02:33:54] And you can flank them and then you're gonna win.
[02:33:57] That's so interesting that how this question is like that.
[02:34:00] Like it seems like when I first read it,
[02:34:03] I was like, oh shoot, that's a good question, you know?
[02:34:05] When there, and it is, but in a different way,
[02:34:08] because this question is essentially what it does
[02:34:10] is it like what he call it, like a strainer or whatever.
[02:34:12] Like it shifts, it shifts, it strains out the guy
[02:34:16] who's not doing extreme ownership.
[02:34:18] See how it says if they're both exercising it?
[02:34:21] But if they're going against each other,
[02:34:22] that means there's some extreme ownership,
[02:34:23] not being practiced somewhere in here.
[02:34:25] We just know, but we're gonna, we can find out, you know?
[02:34:28] Who's going against who kind of thing?
[02:34:29] If they're both going against each other,
[02:34:31] well, maybe they both have it, you know?
[02:34:33] But there's always gonna be one person.
[02:34:34] You will not always, but there's using me one person
[02:34:38] that is got it.
[02:34:41] Good that understands it.
[02:34:42] And that's gonna be working in this guy.
[02:34:44] It's just so good and so smooth and so tactical.
[02:34:48] And they're gonna win.
[02:34:48] And that other person, that's right, you know,
[02:34:51] I were winning because I got extreme ownership going on.
[02:34:54] And I took ownership of this project.
[02:34:56] And you know what the guy says?
[02:34:56] Like the real, the real leader is like absolutely man.
[02:35:00] You did a great job with that.
[02:35:02] And meanwhile he knows he just made his manipulated
[02:35:04] and flanked him and made it happen
[02:35:06] to the best of the team.
[02:35:09] You know, he's keeping the train going.
[02:35:11] That's good.
[02:35:12] Yeah, he did.
[02:35:13] It's just a thing.
[02:35:15] Okay.
[02:35:16] I think we got last question.
[02:35:17] Yeah, just maybe one more.
[02:35:19] Maybe.
[02:35:19] Uh, talk a little.
[02:35:22] Can you talk about fear of failure
[02:35:24] and how to overcome it?
[02:35:28] Fear of failure.
[02:35:31] So obviously, fear of failure
[02:35:35] can can keep you from taking risk.
[02:35:38] And then it can leave you to sit in there
[02:35:41] paralyzed into not taking any action at all.
[02:35:45] And then obviously, that's bad.
[02:35:50] But I don't actually want you to overcome
[02:35:58] the fear of failure.
[02:36:00] I want you to be afraid of failure.
[02:36:05] Fear of failure is good.
[02:36:07] Fear of failure will keep you up at night,
[02:36:11] planning and rehearsing and going over contingencies.
[02:36:17] Fear of failure will keep you training hard.
[02:36:23] It'll stop you from cutting corners.
[02:36:28] Fear of failure will keep you working and thinking
[02:36:33] and striving and relentlessly trying to be more prepared
[02:36:39] for battle.
[02:36:44] So I want you to be afraid of failing.
[02:36:47] I fear failure.
[02:36:51] But more important.
[02:36:55] I want you to be horrified.
[02:36:58] I want you to be terrified of sitting on your ass
[02:37:03] and doing nothing.
[02:37:06] That is what I want you to be afraid of.
[02:37:07] Of waking up in six days or six weeks or six years
[02:37:12] or 60 years.
[02:37:15] And being no closer to your goal,
[02:37:18] you've made no progress.
[02:37:22] That is the horror.
[02:37:25] That is the nightmare.
[02:37:29] That is what you need to be truly afraid of.
[02:37:33] Being stagnant.
[02:37:40] So get up and go.
[02:37:47] Take the risk, take the gamble, take the first step, take action.
[02:37:54] And don't let another day slip by.
[02:38:07] And I think that's all I've got for tonight.
[02:38:12] And if you got something out of the podcast tonight,
[02:38:15] you want to hear some more.
[02:38:18] Well, then maybe you should go ahead and support the podcast.
[02:38:21] So how can the troopers out there best support the podcast?
[02:38:26] Well, one of the or the initial way is to support yourself at the same time.
[02:38:31] And that is to supplement on it.
[02:38:36] On it has the best supplements.
[02:38:39] You know, it's one thing to say they have the best supplements
[02:38:42] because I like them.
[02:38:43] But they have for real the best supplements.
[02:38:46] Like the legit, you read all the stuff about it.
[02:38:48] It's straight up the best.
[02:38:50] You want 10% off there.
[02:38:51] So support your wallet as well.
[02:38:53] So you're supporting podcasts yourself and your wallet.
[02:38:56] 10% off on it.
[02:38:58] That comes.
[02:38:59] Yeah.
[02:39:00] Sorry.
[02:39:02] Also, if you want to passively support, you can do the Amazon click through that's
[02:39:06] you're going to one of the websites.
[02:39:07] Drop podcast.com or or the jocle store is the Amazon link on the top.
[02:39:11] Now we have international.
[02:39:13] Because everyone's like, who oversees or you know,
[02:39:17] I'm going to ask me, hey, what about this? It's a it's a long story.
[02:39:20] But it's not everywhere overseas.
[02:39:22] It's Canada.
[02:39:23] The being linked.
[02:39:25] I started the ones that people have actually.
[02:39:28] Okay, hold me.
[02:39:29] You know, like, hey, we're here in the UK.
[02:39:31] We want to, you know, be down with the thing or whatever.
[02:39:33] And yeah, so I did those.
[02:39:35] And so those are up on both websites as well.
[02:39:38] Thanks for hitting me up with that.
[02:39:40] By the way, um,
[02:39:42] Overseas support.
[02:39:43] Yeah.
[02:39:44] Yes.
[02:39:44] Fully.
[02:39:45] So dope.
[02:39:46] And also, it's been Amazon the the new trooper tool.
[02:39:50] That's a, that's pretty, it's a cool little tool.
[02:39:53] Thanks again, Brady for that one.
[02:39:55] IT genius.
[02:39:57] And you did the student by the way.
[02:39:59] Boy.
[02:40:00] Um, nonetheless, like this tool, you just click it.
[02:40:03] You got this a link to it on things called the, called the true
[02:40:06] Jocfac has trooper tool.
[02:40:08] Chrome extension.
[02:40:09] So it's called awesome.
[02:40:10] You click on the thing.
[02:40:11] You just, like, you clean thing.
[02:40:13] If you want to you click on the thing and it shows up.
[02:40:15] You can't just click on the icon.
[02:40:16] Joc was head.
[02:40:17] And you can even hide that if you don't want it on your browser, whatever.
[02:40:20] You just hide it if you don't want it there.
[02:40:22] But it looks like I think it's kind of cool to up there, whatever.
[02:40:24] Anyway, it helps you go to, it makes you go to Amazon.
[02:40:27] It helps it go through the affiliate link.
[02:40:29] So you don't have to go through the website anymore.
[02:40:31] Does automatically for you.
[02:40:32] So I think, say, say some time.
[02:40:34] Right.
[02:40:35] You know.
[02:40:36] Also, you know, let's course subscribe to the iTunes and you too.
[02:40:41] I think we're going to pump some more value in YouTube.
[02:40:43] But some outtakes on there, I think.
[02:40:45] I like that.
[02:40:46] I like where you're coming from.
[02:40:47] Yeah.
[02:40:48] Subscribe to the YouTube channel.
[02:40:50] That'll be cool.
[02:40:51] So we know that you're out there and you're going to receive these things that
[02:40:55] Echoes put together.
[02:40:57] Yeah.
[02:40:58] And then also the, the Jockel Podcast Store.
[02:41:01] Yeah.
[02:41:02] If you like shirt, if you wear shirt, it was a Jockel Store.
[02:41:06] JockelStore.com.
[02:41:07] JockelStore.com.
[02:41:08] You know.
[02:41:09] It's cool T-shirts.
[02:41:10] I think I still have yet to see one.
[02:41:12] In the wild.
[02:41:14] Not someone I know.
[02:41:16] So I'm looking forward to seeing that somewhere in the world.
[02:41:20] Somewhere on planet earth.
[02:41:22] I am thoroughly enjoying the pictures that people sent.
[02:41:26] Yeah.
[02:41:27] They're awesome.
[02:41:28] You know what's funny?
[02:41:29] The, the, the, the, the Heather Gray, right?
[02:41:31] Yeah.
[02:41:31] The, the gray.
[02:41:32] So like that's the kind of shirt, like, you know,
[02:41:34] a lot of lighter color shirt.
[02:41:35] They get real, um, like dark if you sweat in on that.
[02:41:38] Right.
[02:41:39] Right.
[02:41:39] So they'll be like pictures.
[02:41:40] I don't even know why I think this funny what it's interesting.
[02:41:42] Because the other one is charcoal gray.
[02:41:44] That's a dark gray.
[02:41:45] So they'll be like, yeah, I got my disability.
[02:41:46] And I see the bottom, like, looks like a stripe.
[02:41:48] I'm like, wait, what?
[02:41:49] That's weird.
[02:41:50] How the lighting is.
[02:41:51] There's a stripe on the bottom.
[02:41:52] You're shirt.
[02:41:53] But it's not the charcoal gray one.
[02:41:54] It's, you know, they're, they're getting after.
[02:41:56] It's in the kitchen of getting after.
[02:41:58] Yes, very much.
[02:41:59] So anyway, I don't know why I thought those.
[02:42:01] But it's, it looks funny.
[02:42:03] Not funny.
[02:42:04] Like I'm laughing at them.
[02:42:05] But it's interesting.
[02:42:06] It looks like a shirt.
[02:42:07] It's like optical illusion.
[02:42:08] Anyway.
[02:42:09] So I'll start a comment.
[02:42:10] There's some other shirts on there.
[02:42:11] If you like them, coffee mugs and stickers.
[02:42:14] Awesome.
[02:42:15] Fumper stick.
[02:42:16] Also, if you like the podcast and you want more of this information,
[02:42:22] there's a book that I wrote with my brother,
[02:42:24] Dave Babin.
[02:42:25] It's called Extreme Ownership.
[02:42:26] You can order it through Amazon.
[02:42:29] Or you can get any more books or sold.
[02:42:32] It's available in hardcovered digital and audio format.
[02:42:35] And the audio format, Dave, and I actually read.
[02:42:37] So get some of that.
[02:42:38] If you want to talk to Echo and I, you can find us on the interwebs at Twitter.
[02:42:48] Echo is at Echo Charles.
[02:42:51] And I am at Jockel Willink.
[02:42:53] We're also on the Facebookie.
[02:42:55] And some of that Instagram.
[02:42:58] I got a snapchat thing.
[02:43:01] I signed up for it or whatever.
[02:43:03] But I haven't done anything with it yet.
[02:43:05] Yeah.
[02:43:06] I got to explore that.
[02:43:08] But man, the social media stuff takes some time.
[02:43:12] And I can't, if you want me, find me on Twitter.
[02:43:16] That's the best way.
[02:43:17] Ask your questions on Twitter, hit me up on Twitter.
[02:43:20] That's the most common thing that I use.
[02:43:24] I do check Facebook.
[02:43:26] I mean, everything that has ever been sent to me, I've read.
[02:43:29] I might not have responded to it because I can't literally
[02:43:32] can't respond to every single thing that gets sent to me, which is what's nice about on Twitter.
[02:43:38] I can just hit that I like it.
[02:43:40] You know, so that people know like, oh, he read it cool on Facebook.
[02:43:43] I read it, but there's nothing to press to say I read your thing.
[02:43:47] So maybe I should figure something out like that.
[02:43:50] But anyways, you're, you're,
[02:43:52] You're, you're, you're, you're, like, you get back to people and stuff, which is cool.
[02:43:55] Because there's some people you can tell.
[02:43:57] It's not that.
[02:43:58] It's like they're social media.
[02:44:00] Yeah, it's me and I was just out where, where I just was, there was very limited internet.
[02:44:05] So I was able to get like a tweet out in the morning, a couple of tweets out in the morning.
[02:44:10] But when I'd go to start responding, it was, you know, three minutes to get to, to look at the tweet for somebody.
[02:44:17] So I'm backed up right now for like five days, four days behind or something like that.
[02:44:21] Five days behind actually.
[02:44:22] Yeah, but see, you mean to say that like that you're like backed up.
[02:44:25] It means like, that you're, you know, you're engagement.
[02:44:28] That's good.
[02:44:29] Yeah, but even then I was reading and I do, man, if you send me something on Twitter,
[02:44:34] I'm going to see, you know, read it.
[02:44:36] I might not respond to it directly, but I might, but I've had a day.
[02:44:40] Actually more than one, too, but I remember in a very specific time, a day where I wasn't going to go to jiu-jitsu.
[02:44:45] I wasn't going to go.
[02:44:46] I was, you know, today's the rest day or what?
[02:44:48] I don't know, whatever.
[02:44:49] I wasn't going to go.
[02:44:50] We can't, we call that weakness.
[02:44:51] Maybe, call it what you want.
[02:44:54] Nonetheless, when you see pictures of, I saw,
[02:44:58] I, I, I don't know the, the, the name of the specific person, but I saw a picture.
[02:45:02] First day of jiu-jitsu.
[02:45:04] And I'm like, you know, you get that feeling when, like, let's say you were in that jiu-jitsu.
[02:45:08] And I took a picture of me on the mat saying, I'm here without jockel.
[02:45:12] I'll do that everyone's wanting like my friends around here without jocquins.
[02:45:15] You kind of like, you have this feeling like dang, I wish I was there right now, just to whatever.
[02:45:19] I kind of got that feeling that weird competitiveness you were talking about.
[02:45:22] No, it's more like, I want to be there with you.
[02:45:25] Maybe, maybe a little bit.
[02:45:26] But by the way, I don't know if you do this, you know, like, guys would be like, hey, I want to come visit you at the jammer when I'm right.
[02:45:33] And to me, it's like, you know, a guy showed up because when I was out of town.
[02:45:36] Yeah, and you know, I, I say the days like I go on these these days typically and whatever.
[02:45:40] So just hit me up by the beyond Twitter, whatever, if you're in town and put he did.
[02:45:44] And because the, the reason that's significant one of the main reasons what I said to,
[02:45:47] We're busy from Arizona.
[02:45:49] So Arizona is a baby.
[02:45:51] Maybe the man showed up rolled money.
[02:45:54] Yeah, so because a lot of people in life, I'm not saying just on Twitter, I'm just saying in life,
[02:45:59] They always will be like, hey, oh, you do just, so yeah, I'm going to combine.
[02:46:02] You can show me or all roll or whatever.
[02:46:05] And I would say a good 95 to 99% of the time, they don't, they don't come.
[02:46:10] Yeah, well, a lot of times they're hitting you up from,
[02:46:12] Love, please refer than the way that they're doing.
[02:46:15] No, I'm even talking about like, before the podcast and stuff.
[02:46:18] I'm saying like, your friends, you know,
[02:46:20] Oh, just, oh, whatever, you know, yeah, you do, yeah, I'm going to come check it out.
[02:46:25] Sounds cool, you know, and they never had this dude rolled before.
[02:46:28] AB AB, was he a judge?
[02:46:31] Yes, yes, he's a judge.
[02:46:33] He's a judge.
[02:46:34] Yeah, he was like a three straight white belt or something like, hey, we just open up.
[02:46:38] Yeah, a nice guy, you know, he's cool.
[02:46:41] What's up, AB?
[02:46:42] The man.
[02:46:43] Thanks for coming.
[02:46:44] Yeah.
[02:46:45] Yeah.
[02:46:47] Yeah.
[02:46:50] And obviously, he just wanted to give a shout out.
[02:46:53] We talked about some soldiers today, but I want to give a thanks all the police out there.
[02:46:57] I hear a lot from police officers all over the country.
[02:47:01] And thanks to you guys for doing your duty to keep us safe.
[02:47:05] Same thing for the firefighters.
[02:47:06] I've actually, hear a lot from five, this all kinds of firefighters.
[02:47:10] And all you guys are protecting us on the home front.
[02:47:13] Obviously, much appreciated, and then course the military folks out there, especially those that are deployed right now, taking the fight to the enemy.
[02:47:24] Be aggressive and crush them.
[02:47:27] And we'll see you when you get home.
[02:47:29] And finally, to all the, to all the jaccopotcas, troopers out there.
[02:47:37] Thank you for the support across the board with all of us.
[02:47:41] We appreciate it. And what we really appreciate more than anything is you out there in your life, taking ownership of your world and getting after it.
[02:47:58] So, until next time, this is echo and jaccopot.
[02:48:05] Thank you.