Jocko Podcast 329: The Son Tay Raid. Operation Ivory Coast, With Terry Buckler.

2022-04-13T18:33:56Z

Underground Premium Content: https://www.jockounderground.com/subscribe Join the conversation on Twitter/Instagram: @jockowillink @echocharles 0:00:00 - Opening 0:03:35 - Terry Buckler and the Son Tay Raid. 2:33:27 - How to stay on THE PATH. JOCKO UNDERGROUND Exclusive Episodes: https://www.jockounderground.com/subscribe Jocko Store Apparel: https://www.jockostore.com Jocko Fuel: https://jockofuel.com Origin Jeans and Clothes: https://originmaine.com/durable-goods/ Echelon Front: https://www.echelonfront.com 2:554:59 - Closing Gratitude.

AI summary of episode

He knows exactly what you're getting into exactly And he gave you some good advice which we're gonna find out you did not listen to All right Uh boot camp here we were issued our new nice green uniforms and all the good stuff that comes with it underwear socks boots and blankets are new friends The drill sergeants marched us or at least we called it marching over to get our first army haircut It took about one minute, but it was free and you know what they say you get what you pay for I'd only been in the army a few days when our company was brought into one of our training buildings There was this big bad looking rainbow guy who was looking for volunteers for the green berets I didn't know a lot about the green berets, but I did know they were one of the most elite fighting units in the army This guy looked as though he could have kicked any 10 of us at once I thought if I'm going to war I want to go with the best so I raised my hand when he asked if anyone wanted to volunteer for the green berets Special forces I knew this would cost me another year of service But I figured another year is worth the price to pay to be among the army's best I guess those a poor listener when it came to my dad's advice about volunteer You know my thoughts were Okay, the good Lord is with me and with us and We're gonna be all right, but I got to do my day and whatever it takes, you know One of my biggest fears was what I freeze you know having never been in combat You know, I mean I've heard of guys that've been in combat before freezing Even guys that've been in for a long time You know, but that was a concern of mine what I'd be able to but all the old timers kept coming up to him and said don't hesitate Don't have a safety whatever you do it on hesitate was there anyone else that had no combat experience So there was four of us had never been in combat before hell and how many out of 56 four of us Never been in combat but I can tell you I am living proof that what they we trained on probably saved a bunch of lives You know and Awesome life lesson Going back to the book you said is one of the six guys assigned to guard the tactical operations And I started to see that I might miss out on some of the key training if I wanted to have a chance to get in selected for one of the assault force teams I had to train when I was not pulling guard duty Security was so tight that we didn't know who we would be rescuing or in what part of the world the mission would take place There was a lot of speculation that it might be an attempt to free prisoners in Cuba Based on the three hour flying time of the mission I had been training and pulling guard duty for about a month when I got my chance to speak up I was checking Colonel Bill's whole Simon's For access to the talk building while we were waiting for an escort to take the bull in He asked how things were going for me I knew that he was only going to pick some of us for the actual mission I think there was somewhere else you thought you might be going to replace hijacked on tarmacs around the Camorole that we thought we might be going into Rescue you know people on hijacked planes, so you have no idea what you're doing No, which and everybody you know it was we didn't know we just knew we were gonna do some type of rescue and We trained Fort and did you know that it was real? But like any kind of adventurous and this is brought just my experience like the bias I came from my experience with meeting all these guys We're gonna make a think doing all these Adventurous things, you know, where it's like you go through these crazy missions or all these crazy military experiences You come home and boom Let's switch missions into some other quote-unquote Adventurous scenario, you know and a lot of people a lot of us or not us, but a lot of people do that So like you don't have to you know not everyone's gonna come home and start a tactical shooting company You know like that's not That's not the normal thing what makes it seem normal is you know when someone owns a tactical shooting company that they were a veteran So you neutralize everybody on the way through and that was our orders and that's what we did and you know the Our way of clearing a building is quite different in the way they cleared a day We didn't worry about collateral damage, you know, you were the bad guy and that's what it was gonna be So we made sure that We neutralized and moved on to the next building Now, were you worried about where you're What did you guys plan in such a way that your bullets That were going through this building that there was no friendlies on the other side Did you guys have the whole thing kind of mapped out? and You know you learned You know all the basics of you know patroling things like that they went into a little more advanced, you know how to set up ambushes He always told us if you're gonna do anything Do your best correct That's an important one You go on to say here as the member as a member of the advanced party another one of our tasks was to build this large mock-up of buildings Using target canvas as the walls with doors with cutouts for windows we began constructing it on Thursday September 10th and it took us Several days to complete we didn't know why we were having to build it it wasn't until we did our first walk through during our initial training That I realized how it would be used Even then we had no idea it was a Dimensionally perfect replica of all the buildings and walls of the POW camp in saante North Vietnam Two by four is whatever jam two by four is near the dirt and then build little buildings Full size walk-throughs It looked like toilet paper on wrapped on a Two before so it reminded me you know, but and one of the things we finally clarified in and the book was Everybody said we used to take it down every night I'll put it in unedited into the book and I got about 40 of them and Some are one paragraph summer three or four five pages, you know, but it's their memorable moment on the raid Or about the rate or whatever might be and you know, it just gives a whole different perspective, you know from a P.O. W. standpoint to a guy flying at you know Mid midcap overs and it really It was empty At this time we started to move back to the LZ for extraction We still moved with these assumption that there could be more enemy soldiers lying in the bushes While the helicopters were and route were returning to extract us One of red wines rolls was to clear the planned LZ by cutting down certain light poles that task revealed one frustrating Surprise we had brought a chainsaw to cut down certain wooden telephone poles But sergeant first class Charles, Maston and sergeant first class Ronnie straight hand were to blow up a tall concrete light pole The moment that Maston and Strahan finished placing the four one pound packets of c4 explosive We're ready to blow and we're conforming confirming that they should activate the fuse apple one was arriving They waited until apple one had landed offloaded green leaf and departed Ensured of safety they detonated the c4 as the pole rose into the air a huge flash of light Maston and Strahan could See that this was not a light pole it had four large high tension power lines Dancing sparks were everywhere as the four huge power lines hit the rice patties the very rice patties And which our soldiers and POWs would be marching to load the returning chalpers We were going to have to find a new location where are we going to have to find a new location for the LZ Maston, Strahan and Captain Jim McClam as the marshalling area control officer immediately set about ensuring They understood the location of all the wines and whether they were hot After assessing the situation and ensuring there were no other potential hazards they began placing the bean bag lights in an area suitably distant from the power lines As everyone returned to the LZ waiting for the helicopters we had a few minutes to gather people and equipment to load on apple one and apple two You just not go into your life lessons in here Don't be a complainer the world is moving on and needs people to solve problems A value at your situation make a decision and execute any new plan without complaining and feels or for yourself Not gonna help Not gonna help the situation. yeah like dips you feel dips you feel good put but muscle ups too like when you get done with muscle ups You feel like kind of jacked all the way around Yeah, so you know when chasing gardeners at the other day that he takes a one Discipline go pill in the morning that's he I haven't tried it yet, but that seems like a good move Just to get a little a little kicker And you know That that probably Is one of the more Important messages that I think Could come out of this book because I think the training that we did saved our lives because we had I mean we had 177 rehearsals and Part of those were alternate you know like if red wine went down It was red wine alternate red wine greenly went down was alternate greenly right Um, took your first airplane ride after AIT you say I experienced my first airplane ride It took me from Fort Leonard wood to Fort Benning, Georgia Jump school as much as I expected a lot of running and push-ups and when you screwed up and morning inspections I went through jump school in August Fast forward a little bit here you said I had the good fortune going through jump school with some navy seals from team two if I recall correctly When they learned that I was headed for special forces training they decided they would adopt me into their ranks The water troughs we were we had were about a foot deep and 18 inches wide the seals stopped Up one of the troughs and filled it with water then about six of them grabbed me and dunked me in the water until I thought I was going to drown From then on they deemed me an honorary seal I guess you might say I had my first taste of water boat boarding They were actually great bunch of guys one day we were headed back to the barracks after a day training one of the seals was made to run around the platoon while we did the airborne shuffle But you know I went through basic seal training and there you get to eat and you get to eat Actually a lot most of the time you're getting three meals a day and usually one or two of them are in a Chow Hall where it's basically all you can eat and I always feel You know the Rangers that get one MRE day for whatever that is you know 85 days and you know you do things that You know I started driving a tractor I was six years old You know as you know was just I had to keep it between the bales

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Episode transcript

[00:00:00] This is Jockel podcast number 329 with echo Charles and me, Jockel willing good evening echo good evening
[00:00:09] At 1800 the bull and Lieutenant Colonel Sidner walked on the stage
[00:00:15] The room got dead silent when the bull began to talk
[00:00:20] Bull was a man of few words
[00:00:23] The briefing theater was a short walk from our barracks
[00:00:27] Inside it had simple rows of wood seating like two by ten boards on short metal poles no seat backs
[00:00:36] It would seat around a hundred
[00:00:39] There was an elevated stage with a screen
[00:00:42] We'd watch to movie there just a couple days prior
[00:00:47] Bull reveals a large map and
[00:00:51] Says quote
[00:00:53] We are going to rescue 70 American prisoners of war maybe more from a camp called Sonté
[00:01:01] The target is 23 miles west of Hanoi
[00:01:04] This is something our American prisoners of war have a right to expect from their fellow soldiers
[00:01:11] We are all part of the same military family. We want these men to know that they are not abandoned by their military family
[00:01:18] No man should feel that way
[00:01:20] That's why we are going in there after them
[00:01:26] You are to let nothing nothing interfere with the operation
[00:01:31] Our mission is to rescue prisoners not to take prisoners
[00:01:36] If there's been a leak
[00:01:38] We'll know it by the time the second or third chopper sets down
[00:01:42] If we're walking into a trap if it turns out that they know we're coming
[00:01:46] Don't even dream about walking out of North Vietnam
[00:01:49] Unless you've got wings on your feet
[00:01:53] We'll be a hundred miles from Louss
[00:01:57] It's the wrong part of the world for retrograde maneuver
[00:02:01] If it happens, I want to keep this force together
[00:02:05] We'll back up to the Sonté Kong River if we have to and by God
[00:02:10] They're welcome to come across that damn open ground
[00:02:12] We'll make them pay for every foot across that Sonté for about four seconds
[00:02:21] You could have heard a pin drop
[00:02:23] Then like a cannon shot
[00:02:26] Everyone bursts out shouting, woooping, hollering, slapping each other on the back
[00:02:31] Raring like Broncos yelling, let's go get them
[00:02:36] Both tries to bring us back to Earth by explaining in no uncertain terms
[00:02:40] That he estimates each man has a 50-50 chance of returning alive from this mission
[00:02:47] He states that this is strictly a volunteer mission
[00:02:51] If any man has a reason that he should not go on this mission, he should decide now
[00:02:57] Not a single man backed out
[00:02:59] The whole meeting, including Lieutenant Colonel Sidner's portion lasted no longer than ten minutes
[00:03:12] And that right there is an excerpt from a book called
[00:03:17] Who will go into the Sonté POW camp written by Terry Buckler and is about one of the most famous
[00:03:26] Special Operations missions of all time the attempted POW rescue on the Sonté prison camp in Vietnam
[00:03:37] And the author Terry Buckler a special forces soldier green beret
[00:03:44] Was on that raid
[00:03:46] He was actually the youngest man on that mission
[00:03:49] And we have the honor of having him here with us tonight to share some of his lessons learned
[00:03:56] From this incredible mission and from his life
[00:04:00] Terry
[00:04:01] Thank you for joining us
[00:04:03] All right pleasure
[00:04:04] It's an honor to have you here. This is something that I've heard about for many many years
[00:04:08] And anyone that's in the special operations community knows about this raid and the impact that it had
[00:04:15] Not just on the POWs
[00:04:17] But also in in the history and the continued evolution of special operations as a whole so it's
[00:04:26] Pretty pretty humbling to be sitting here talking to you that that you were actually all in that raid
[00:04:32] How do you end up coming on this podcast? Is your daughter my daughter she's acting like my agent
[00:04:39] And told me about you and I started looking up some of your podcast that you've done
[00:04:45] And
[00:04:47] And then started looking at your file and my goodness you're better than Trump
[00:04:52] So I don't know about all that
[00:04:56] That she's the one who got the ball rolling for it. Well, I'm definitely glad she she reached out and this just an incredible story
[00:05:06] The had an awesome time reading this book
[00:05:09] And we'll go over some of this book today. I'll start off by saying obviously I can't read the whole book
[00:05:14] Um get the book yourself if you want to hear the entire story, but I want to hit some wave tops of it
[00:05:19] Because it's just an incredible story and
[00:05:23] Well, usually like to start off in the beginning kind of where you came from and
[00:05:27] To introduce those topics. I'll go to the book
[00:05:31] Okay, so it says here. I was born in a two bedroom house on a small 72 acre farm in central Missouri in 1950
[00:05:37] We were six miles from Clark six from Renek and six from Higbee
[00:05:43] Our mail came through Clark. I went to school at Renek and our phone came through Higbee
[00:05:49] Clark happens to be the birth birthplace of famous World War II general Omar Bradley
[00:05:55] Our house had been built in 1870
[00:05:58] We didn't have indoor plumbing until 1962 when I was 12
[00:06:03] So that's a
[00:06:07] That's a little different that people grow up now, huh? Just a little bit
[00:06:13] What tell me a little bit more about you know growing up in that in those conditions?
[00:06:18] Well, you know we were by ourselves our neighbors were in the same boat that we were pretty much
[00:06:22] We had one neighbor down the road that actually had indoor plumbing and as always kind of nice
[00:06:27] There are three kids and one of them was same ages maybe we grew up together and
[00:06:34] You know, sometimes we'd spend night to that each other's house and there's always nice to go to his house because you get a bath and hot water
[00:06:43] And so what you guys did you boil water to go and take a bath at your house sometimes
[00:06:48] Sometimes we boil water other times we set a tub out in the sun in the summer
[00:06:53] Okay, and then we'd bring it in the house and all the stories when I was growing up in my parents
[00:07:00] I'm going to town and I was taking a bath and
[00:07:04] We had a stove and the stove as we head back in those days didn't have the metal
[00:07:09] Charatney was just there was the the heat and there was a fire and I lost my balance and
[00:07:17] my butt fell back into the
[00:07:19] That against the stove and need us to say yeah, and a nice little burnout
[00:07:25] Couldn't go to school for about a week because couldn't wearing clothes and it was embarrassing to me to go to school
[00:07:31] And when people start saying why why were you out
[00:07:35] So that's it just when those things you know hurt my butt
[00:07:40] That's what you call burning in scientists
[00:07:42] Yeah, you say in here dad was a hardworking man, but he also enjoyed having fun
[00:07:49] When he returned from the war in 1946 he worked as a coal miner alongside his dad and rock springs Wyoming
[00:07:56] After he was injured in a mine cave in he decided he was not interested in miners career and move back to Missouri
[00:08:04] Where he'd been raised
[00:08:05] In 1947 he purchased the 72 egg acres. I came to know as our farm
[00:08:09] He attended classes on agriculture at the technical college under the GI bill
[00:08:17] And you say this let me pause to tell you about my father's service in the army world war two was when he served
[00:08:23] He never talked about the war until one Saturday in July 1997 after he had his stroke and was recovering in the
[00:08:29] University of Missouri hospital
[00:08:31] That and I started talking about what he did in the army from basic training until he was released from active duty
[00:08:37] Dad spent 36 months in the South Pacific
[00:08:40] We talked about what it was like to get shot at and how it felt to shoot another person
[00:08:44] That was a very laid back person it was hard to imagine him shooting someone we compared the food the army
[00:08:51] Fettas and the types of weapons we had we both carried a call 45 our long rifles were very different
[00:08:56] We talked about fear while in combat
[00:09:01] Now you say your dad didn't really talk about that until 1997
[00:09:05] Right, so did you did you hear did you know he was in World War II growing up?
[00:09:09] Yeah, I knew he had been in World War II, but we never talked about it
[00:09:14] when I I've volunteered for the draft and
[00:09:18] When I came home and told my parents when I had done you know my mom
[00:09:22] Of course she broke into tears and
[00:09:26] Dad can't understand the situation and
[00:09:30] Remember he took me to the bus station
[00:09:32] God of Kansas City for the induction or take my physical and that's that was really the first time we talked about
[00:09:41] What it was like and
[00:09:43] More and he told me don't volunteer for anything
[00:09:48] I really listen to
[00:09:50] Famous last words. Yes
[00:09:53] Uh, you say when I turn 15 I spent most of my summers working for a neighbor who'd formed about
[00:09:58] 500 acres my brothers had worked for him until they graduated then I took their place
[00:10:04] Your class president
[00:10:06] Yeah, you you had a really small school grown up 19 you're graduating class. Yes. You were class president. Yes
[00:10:14] You played the only sport you had was basketball correct which you were not genetically engineered to play
[00:10:22] I wasn't the tallest guy on the team. I didn't stretch the imagination
[00:10:26] But you played the duplai varsity
[00:10:29] Well, we didn't have anything but varsity. So you were just playing you had one team you played on you didn't play
[00:10:36] So and then the only got 19 in your class you can't be real picking
[00:10:42] Uh
[00:10:43] You say after graduating from high school I moved to Columbia to work the summer for my uncle Rodney who owned a tree service since 1950
[00:10:50] Um
[00:10:53] In the fall of 1968 I moved to Louisville Kentucky to attend trade school for electronics
[00:10:58] I had a job working construction in the mornings and went to school in the afternoon
[00:11:01] I did this until January of 1969 when I ran out of money
[00:11:06] There's the end of February 1969 when a couple of my high school buddies and I were riding around the big town of
[00:11:11] Mobiley and decided to stop that the draft stop into the draft for to see where we were on the draft list
[00:11:17] We'd all been in technical school and back then when you lost your draft deferment from college
[00:11:21] It seemed like you jumped up on the draft list
[00:11:24] Lady at the draft board told me that it would probably be April before I'd be drafted
[00:11:28] I asked her when the next group was scheduled to go and she told us it would be March
[00:11:32] I asked her to add me to the list so that was it. I just volunteered for the US army
[00:11:38] correct
[00:11:40] So
[00:11:41] This is
[00:11:42] 1969 I mean the Vietnamist's war is clearly going on and you're seeing this in the news every day
[00:11:49] You know I've had quite a few people on the podcast that when they were
[00:11:53] joining the military
[00:11:55] It was
[00:11:55] 1965
[00:11:57] 66 they the Vietnam wasn't a guarantee like it must have been for you you must know 100% you were going to be an off
[00:12:03] I was exactly right. I mean in those days
[00:12:07] They needed troops and
[00:12:09] You know I cost me another year of my I volunteered for a two year
[00:12:15] But to get into special forces I had to
[00:12:18] Extend another year for training
[00:12:20] So I became a three-year commitment
[00:12:24] Were there like hippies
[00:12:26] Were you were in Moberley or was there was there not?
[00:12:30] That's so much in Moberley but it fought brag
[00:12:33] Where I ended up
[00:12:35] After a basic in a IT in jump school
[00:12:38] Yeah, we had our trained fondies and our
[00:12:43] Those
[00:12:45] People that like to protest
[00:12:47] But it was it seemed like for you and your group of friends
[00:12:50] Just patriotic this is what's going on. Yep
[00:12:53] Exactly
[00:12:55] It's a real area. I mean you know hippies were kind of a thought of as weird hours
[00:13:00] Still are my mind
[00:13:02] You know
[00:13:04] Just the way it goes
[00:13:06] haha
[00:13:09] Summer to love I guess was a little bit different for you and Moberley yeah, this is a little bit
[00:13:14] You say on March 17th
[00:13:15] 1969 the day to report to the Moberley draft office my mom got me up early and dad and
[00:13:21] Fixed dad and me a big breakfast before she went to work there in the kitchen my mom gave me a big hug and we kissed
[00:13:27] She told me she loved me. She told me to be safe
[00:13:30] That was a tough day for mom as she walked out of the kitchen door to go to work
[00:13:33] I could she see she was crying
[00:13:37] Dad had taken the morning off to drive me to Moberley
[00:13:41] So I could catch the Missouri transit bus to Kansas City from my physical and my swearing in it was bright sunny morning driving to Moberley
[00:13:48] Dad had a nice talk to me about what to expect at the army basic training
[00:13:54] He advised me to take it all with a grain of salt
[00:13:56] Dad had served in the Pacific theater during World War II and it's seen his share of combat in the Philippines
[00:14:03] Standing at the bus stop we hugged and he gave me some more good advice keep your nose clean your head down and
[00:14:10] Don't volunteer for anything
[00:14:13] Dad wiped back his tears as he walked back to his car
[00:14:17] Scott had a little bit of a different meaning when the war's going on in Vietnam
[00:14:25] And your dad had actually fought himself in Southeast Asia. He knows exactly what you're getting into exactly
[00:14:34] And he gave you some good advice which we're gonna find out you did not listen to
[00:14:39] All right
[00:14:41] Uh boot camp here we were issued our new nice green uniforms and all the good stuff that comes with it underwear socks boots and blankets are new friends
[00:14:50] The drill sergeants marched us or at least we called it marching over to get our first army haircut
[00:14:55] It took about one minute, but it was free and you know what they say you get what you pay for
[00:15:02] I'd only been in the army a few days when our company was brought into one of our training buildings
[00:15:07] There was this big bad looking rainbow guy who was looking for volunteers for the green berets
[00:15:14] I didn't know a lot about the green berets, but I did know they were one of the most elite fighting units in the army
[00:15:20] This guy looked as though he could have kicked any 10 of us at once
[00:15:24] I thought if I'm going to war I want to go with the best so I raised my hand when he asked if anyone wanted to volunteer for the green berets
[00:15:30] Special forces
[00:15:31] I knew this would cost me another year of service
[00:15:33] But I figured another year is worth the price to pay to be among the army's best
[00:15:39] I guess those a poor listener when it came to my dad's advice about volunteer
[00:15:42] So how much did you know about special forces?
[00:15:44] Not a whole lot other than the green beret, you know
[00:15:48] the songs
[00:15:49] Very sadler yeah and then out and
[00:15:52] you know
[00:15:54] I knew that
[00:15:57] Special forces was special and
[00:16:00] But I really I knew no one at that time that was in special forces, but I I had done a little reading on them when I was
[00:16:10] Thinking about joining the military before I actually volunteer
[00:16:14] But I was felt like if I was going to go on one go with the best
[00:16:19] How many guys from your boot camp
[00:16:21] Company do you think volunteered me
[00:16:24] Yeah, it was kind of you know
[00:16:31] I thought well you know that's why it's special maybe
[00:16:35] What percentage of your boot camp company was draft these would you say?
[00:16:37] Probably 90 percent wow yeah we had it most of us are all drafties
[00:16:43] We had a few guys that were in reserve or national guard, but the rest of us are just drafties
[00:16:50] And you know we were there because Uncle Sam needed us there
[00:16:57] And so we took on the role of a soldier
[00:17:05] What was the kind of shock value of boot camp for you having grown up on a farm you've been working hard your whole life
[00:17:13] I mean when you you're getting you might have been easy for you
[00:17:17] I had one of my guys worked on a dairy farm up in Minnesota and for him being in the military was easy it was a vacation
[00:17:24] I agree
[00:17:26] You know it wasn't I remember that you know we had a
[00:17:33] My DI who was a veteran Vietnam found out that I was going to jump school and
[00:17:39] There was another Palmer 17 year old Palmer and that guy got me and more trouble he was going to jump school
[00:17:47] And so anytime
[00:17:49] He messed up I had to pay for it
[00:17:52] So I started messing up so he had to pay for it and we had a run in battle and
[00:17:57] Trotsargent dynam was our drill sergeant and
[00:18:00] He just I remember we doing the pukele sticks and he called our number and we go out and
[00:18:07] And then he'd call somebody else's number need coming in but he wouldn't leave us he left us out there
[00:18:14] You know and then when I got tired he'd call for a power's number and I got to a point where the guy is
[00:18:20] felt sorry for him and of course
[00:18:23] That him said you guys either start smackin him or we will start smackin you and so you know
[00:18:29] They didn't have a really good choice and those little helmets we were we're worth a
[00:18:34] Pizza pie and nothing but I remember coming out of the man my head was ringing crazy
[00:18:41] You know that was the way it was and
[00:18:43] Why was Palmer going to airborne school he just wanted to go to the 80s second oh
[00:18:48] Yeah, he didn't want to go to special forces and he wanted to go to the 80s second air board
[00:18:53] And but that he was he was a stalkie young kid and
[00:18:58] 17 years old smart new everything
[00:19:01] He thought
[00:19:03] And we're all blessed with how did they 17
[00:19:08] I have to thank and keep your mouse shut
[00:19:11] How long was bootcamp do you remember eight weeks yeah
[00:19:15] And did you get any infantry was it just very basic kind of indoctrination military pretty basic you know and then my AIT
[00:19:23] I was a combat engineer on the
[00:19:25] My AIT which is that four to eleven or Leonard wood as well
[00:19:29] So I spent basic and Leonard went and I spent my AIT at Leonard wood
[00:19:35] So that's just an advanced train extended period of time you're there now
[00:19:41] How did you end up getting an MOS of combat engineer did that get assigned to you?
[00:19:45] Yeah, that was that was the case you didn't make it through special forces training exactly
[00:19:51] Yeah, you went through your basic whatever the army, you know, whatever your military occupation is gonna be
[00:19:56] And then once you got into special forces then you decided you had a choice of you know medic
[00:20:03] You know we had the best medics and
[00:20:07] weapons
[00:20:08] Communications and
[00:20:11] Intelligence and all that was a new request trained on all that
[00:20:15] Yeah, same thing they have now same they have the same system now right
[00:20:19] Um, took your first airplane ride after AIT you say I experienced my first airplane ride
[00:20:26] It took me from Fort Leonard wood to Fort Benning, Georgia
[00:20:30] Jump school as much as I expected a lot of running and push-ups and when you screwed up and morning inspections
[00:20:37] I went through jump school in August
[00:20:40] Fast forward a little bit here you said I had the good fortune going through jump school with some navy seals from team two if I recall correctly
[00:20:46] When they learned that I was headed for special forces training they decided they would adopt me into their ranks
[00:20:52] The water troughs we were we had were about a foot deep and 18 inches wide the seals stopped
[00:20:59] Up one of the troughs and filled it with water then about six of them grabbed me and dunked me in the water until I thought I was going to drown
[00:21:06] From then on they deemed me an honorary seal
[00:21:10] I guess you might say I had my first taste of water boat boarding
[00:21:14] They were actually great bunch of guys one day we were headed back to the barracks after a day training one of the seals was made to run around the platoon
[00:21:22] while we did the airborne shuffle
[00:21:25] Well the seals have a very high degree of a spree decor if one of them was dropped for push-ups
[00:21:30] They all did push-ups so if one seal had to run around our platoon they all would
[00:21:34] Think about that the seals were running circles around us as we soldiers did the airborne shuffle
[00:21:39] Now to say this pissed off the cadre as an understatement the next thing I knew we were running what felt like a sprint as the seals ran around the platoon
[00:21:47] By the time we made it back to the barracks we were all exhausted the cadre then had the seals doing push-ups for the next ten or 15 minutes
[00:21:53] I developed a real appreciation for the level of camaraderie the seals have
[00:21:59] I
[00:22:00] Went to airborne school they don't seals don't go to airborne school anymore and for a better journey
[00:22:04] They go through the Navy has their own little program now, but so I I was I don't know when they stopped it
[00:22:10] It was quite a few years after me, but it was definitely that situation
[00:22:14] We would go down there you know we were like you said earlier we were so we were young
[00:22:19] So we thought we knew everything but we were definitely a good shape because we were just coming out of seal training and airborne
[00:22:26] school especially this is like 1990
[00:22:28] 1991 I think it's when I was going through airborne school so at that time there's all kinds of people from
[00:22:36] The army going through airborne and the air force it wasn't
[00:22:41] It wasn't though it wasn't high standards of physical training
[00:22:45] Not very high so you know we come out of basic seal training where we're like animals
[00:22:51] We're just having fun make it do anything to hurt us
[00:22:54] But had some good really good memories of the black cats down there. They were awesome. They were they were very cool
[00:23:02] Yeah, it's it's too bad they don't join us up for that anymore. It was kind of fun even the all tell you
[00:23:08] I had a kid asking me about it the other day and
[00:23:12] Man that that's weird that's where I really learned about the herd up and wait like never before
[00:23:17] I mean you get you know we'd meet it to a clock in the morning to start getting your parachute on
[00:23:24] At four o'clock in the morning you're getting your first inspection at six o'clock in the morning
[00:23:29] You're taking a bus out to the plane at eight o'clock in the morning. You're getting on the plane at 10 o'clock in the morning
[00:23:35] The plane takes off and it noon you jump
[00:23:37] I've been doing this for 10 hours. This is a 30 second evolution
[00:23:43] Good times
[00:23:45] uh
[00:23:47] you finish
[00:23:49] Airborne school and
[00:23:51] You roll into September
[00:23:53] 1969 special forces training you say one certain night in September
[00:23:58] 1969 74 top notch soldiers out of a hundred screen out of hundreds screen
[00:24:03] Jumped into the dz at camp a call near Fort Bragg with all their equipment and one change of fatigue
[00:24:09] That's all we would have for the next few weeks. We are about four miles from what would be
[00:24:14] Or what would become our base camp?
[00:24:16] It was about 10 p.m. and the welcome committee was ready for us
[00:24:20] Now you could tell these guys really look forward to our arrival
[00:24:23] They cadre quickly assembled and started marching us to camp up on this dirt road with our rucksacks and our weapons
[00:24:30] So this is your start of special forces training you're going your jumping into school
[00:24:35] All right correct
[00:24:36] Okay, my call and you just have what you have on you an extra change of camis and
[00:24:41] And your gear regular gear yep
[00:24:46] Deep what kind of brief did you get before this
[00:24:50] Did you get a brief call and we all knew that's the year that's where the washout started you know and so so once you start
[00:25:03] Once you start this this section of special forces training and people start washing out are they quitting or they failing?
[00:25:08] What's going on combination some guys you know on the just on the night in that first night
[00:25:14] We lost probably 15 guys
[00:25:17] Just they went for them. I mean they couldn't take the
[00:25:21] harassment and the guy yeah, I mean
[00:25:24] Those the cadre out there were
[00:25:27] You know they
[00:25:29] They knew how to get under your skin and and in a very short time
[00:25:33] I remember seeing some guys get so bad, you know, they take a swing element
[00:25:39] It was like oh you don't want to do that you know
[00:25:42] Wrong wrong wrong and
[00:25:45] Next thing you know you know that person in around anymore
[00:25:49] But that's
[00:25:51] That's the way when we're reading them out you know and getting people there that really
[00:25:56] Wanted to be in special forces and knew that there was going to be some
[00:25:59] Ups and downs to the training part of it and and then all through
[00:26:05] I think we were out there like eight weeks and
[00:26:08] You know you learned
[00:26:10] You know all the basics of you know patroling things like that they went into a little more advanced, you know how to set up ambushes and then you know a different
[00:26:21] types of
[00:26:22] Medical deals and going on or raid, you know
[00:26:26] Well or a mission and you had your right to your mission reports and things like that
[00:26:31] See it was a kind of an overall view of everything that you would need in an 18 and
[00:26:39] You know at this point we were
[00:26:41] Medix we were weapons we were just
[00:26:44] Green green braze and that you know we're just hoping to get through the next level to where they could then select the MOS we wanted and go
[00:26:53] That's when the training really started for special forces this was we're gonna weed you out
[00:26:59] We're gonna make sure that this is what you want because if you don't can handle this you're not gonna handle anything else
[00:27:06] Then we don't want you
[00:27:07] I forgot to mention that when you were in boot camp
[00:27:10] You scored a perfect 500 on the on the physical fitness test. So you were just a good athlete for sure
[00:27:16] How I was I was in good shape back then and a fast runner you mentioned that specifically you were a fast runner
[00:27:25] And then you know it are you doing a lot of patroling like long long marches during special force training because I think it's different now
[00:27:33] Yeah, I think I want to say it
[00:27:35] They weren't long marches, but you know you you'd go out and camp out overnight
[00:27:40] You know and kind of make do with which had you know everybody had their a little tense
[00:27:45] But you know a lot times we didn't even use them we're just unroll a sleeping bag and sleep out on the star
[00:27:52] So to speak and
[00:27:54] That was part of it as well. How much were you eating?
[00:27:59] Well you had back then we had the old sea rations, you know, so they would bring in
[00:28:07] The meals and I mean we made those were our meals for all three meals. You know we had
[00:28:13] pound cake
[00:28:17] And ham and mothers
[00:28:21] Was a favorite and then
[00:28:23] Beans and weanies, you know, we're saying put it right and bring it out in a big you know 50 gallon or 25 gallon
[00:28:32] For the water and they put the heaters in them so that each food and then you need your P38
[00:28:39] Open the can and
[00:28:41] That's and you need here and guys trying to barter with you know
[00:28:46] So ham and mothers fuckers were the first you know nobody wanted them and you need your some guy
[00:28:51] I'll trade this for you
[00:28:53] Pallent cake
[00:28:54] Pallent cake for rotten too
[00:28:57] But you know that that was before sea rations or
[00:29:01] Lurps came out for us
[00:29:02] So
[00:29:04] yeah, it's always
[00:29:06] But you know I went through basic seal training and there you get to eat and you get to eat
[00:29:12] Actually a lot most of the time you're getting three meals a day and usually one or two of them are in a
[00:29:19] Chow Hall where it's basically all you can eat and I always feel
[00:29:23] You know the Rangers that get one MRE day for whatever that is you know 85 days and
[00:29:29] You know they those guys always lose 20 yeah 15 20 25 pounds I gained
[00:29:36] I gained 11 pounds
[00:29:38] There was your seal train well yeah, I went from 174 to 185 and that's working out however long you're working out
[00:29:44] You know doing a ton of physical activity, but I was just eating a ton and you could get like get done at night
[00:29:52] I would be ordering pizza at
[00:29:54] At 10 o'clock or 11 o'clock at night. I don't order pizza dominoes would deliver
[00:29:59] We would eat pizza just about well we eat up pizza on a lot of nights so we're getting a lot of calories
[00:30:05] But I always found that the
[00:30:07] The army has a little bit more stringent about what they're gonna let you eat their special forces schools
[00:30:13] I remember in the first time I ate it I air force
[00:30:17] Oh yeah, my god next level. Oh, yeah, I mean I remember they say ask you
[00:30:23] How you watch her eggs?
[00:30:25] I'm thinking you're asking
[00:30:27] You know normally it's scrambled, you know and I told them how like my eggs. It's okay
[00:30:34] I'm gonna like this play
[00:30:36] Yeah, the air force definitely puts a priority on yeah on comfort. I will say on comfort they do
[00:30:42] I've always heard that the air force like when they design a base
[00:30:47] The first thing they build is the barracks then they build the recreation
[00:30:51] Then they build the gymnasium then they jibil the pool then they build the golf course and now they're just about any
[00:30:57] Out of money and they say to the government well we still need an air you know, he's still leaving an air strap
[00:31:01] You know in some hangers
[00:31:03] They go well we don't have any choice but the builders
[00:31:06] That's what I've always heard. I don't know if that's true
[00:31:09] But I was worried I did really
[00:31:11] Was there anything that was really hard for you going through this a national special forces selection? No
[00:31:16] I you know I kind of breeze through it. I remember the first time I was ever exhausted where I couldn't do pushups was
[00:31:24] the night we landed and
[00:31:27] We kept up another guy lol and I kept up with a cadry all the way into the base camp
[00:31:34] And then when we got there you know of course the ask your question are you tired?
[00:31:38] And we knew it was a trick question. We said no you can say drop new pushups
[00:31:42] I literally I could not do another pushup. You know I mean I thought oh no this is it they're kind of flushed me
[00:31:49] But you know when the other guys all got in you know they said get up and get in back and fall in
[00:31:55] some of the we got a blessing there
[00:31:58] So uh
[00:32:00] You say this in the book um
[00:32:04] I always tried to add humor to anything that I do
[00:32:07] One early morning the company was in formation waiting for the cadry to join us on that day
[00:32:12] I was the student company commander while we were waiting I shouted out a command to that anyone who that can't
[00:32:18] Tamped out tamp tap dance must be a sissy
[00:32:22] Well the entire company started tap dancing in place
[00:32:26] All of a sudden they all stopped
[00:32:27] I had my back to the cadry building and it was at that time that I realized I was the only one still tap dancing
[00:32:33] I stopped and slowly turned around and stood there and there stood the cadry
[00:32:38] They did have a sense of humor and got a chuckle out of it, but they told me to drop and start doing pushups
[00:32:44] And here you have one of your first life lessons in this book life lesson one add humor
[00:32:50] It really helps when things are getting tough sometimes it's not easy to find it within you
[00:32:55] But even the POWs somehow found a way to pass some slivers of humor through the cracks and the prison walls
[00:33:02] The soul needs it
[00:33:04] Make sure you contribute some for the benefit of the people around you
[00:33:10] You know, I mean it's interesting that we're sitting here laughing about the stories anyways because you got to have fun doing this stuff
[00:33:17] You win it's miserable exactly
[00:33:21] You get done with selection and you say I was sent to my
[00:33:24] Special forces MOS and special forces there were five MOS options weapons engineer communication in telemedical
[00:33:33] And you ended up with communications MOS now is that cuz you
[00:33:38] Is that right?
[00:33:40] I thought you did I
[00:33:42] Did communications on the raid
[00:33:44] Okay, but my MOS was
[00:33:46] 12-proval of as an engineer, okay weapon or demolitions so they kept you and you were an engineer anyways you'd been through
[00:33:55] AIT right that was as an engineer, so they put you as an engineer. Okay, hmm
[00:34:00] I did something's right
[00:34:03] And would you learn about so so talk a little bit about engineers what are you doing in that?
[00:34:07] specialty
[00:34:08] Where you learn down to bird build bridges, you know across rivers and things like that and then of course part of that was demolition
[00:34:15] You know how to use debt core and how to build your own bombs for you know soap dishes and dust initiators things like that
[00:34:23] That were used and then you know how to how to basically use a debt cord to knock down trees and stuff and
[00:34:32] It was
[00:34:33] Remove a class after maybe we lost about eight or nine guys in a accident. I don't know a demo range
[00:34:41] You know what happened we had a a
[00:34:43] The guy that was doing connecting
[00:34:48] We did it what's called a ring main and in the ring main the last one that connects
[00:34:55] Is then connected to the hut wire on the battery and we were using electric blasting caps
[00:35:03] And they forgot to disconnect the other side and
[00:35:07] We lost about a heater nine guys
[00:35:09] On one the end of the day and they were all kneeling over there
[00:35:16] Working on it. Yeah, it was it it was a real shame, but you know somebody forgot and
[00:35:25] Awesome good man
[00:35:28] Man, yep
[00:35:31] That's awful. Yeah, those uh
[00:35:34] You got a pay attention when you work with demolitions
[00:35:37] You just have to yeah
[00:35:40] One one little air like that and put it into your career. That's for sure
[00:35:46] And I bet the guy that was actually near the blasting machine
[00:35:50] He wasn't by a charge right so that lives yeah, he lived
[00:35:55] And I live without the rest of his life
[00:35:59] Yeah
[00:36:01] Um
[00:36:05] Fast forward a little bit
[00:36:07] You say here after I completed special forces MOS training in March
[00:36:11] 1970 we were all then assigned to a group at this time fifth group was responsible for Vietnam and as warriors
[00:36:18] Everyone wanted to be assigned a fifth group including myself
[00:36:21] However, there were two groups at four brags sixth group and seventh group
[00:36:25] I was assigned a seventh group like any good soldier you do as you're a told and make the best of it
[00:36:31] I was proud to be a green beret
[00:36:35] That summer brought me to the notting hala. I said that right man. Holy notting hally
[00:36:40] National forest from which I was picked to be part of bull Simon's mysterious
[00:36:47] Mission so on September 2nd 1970 as
[00:36:50] Member of the advanced party we loaded on the C1 23's southbound so bill Simon's
[00:36:58] This guy is a legend
[00:37:01] World War II he fought in in New Guinea he was a ranger
[00:37:06] He conducted a raid
[00:37:08] That was a that was a POW rescue they rescued in the Philippines
[00:37:13] Over 500 POWs
[00:37:15] Many of whom had participated in the baton death march
[00:37:17] Mm-hmm
[00:37:19] Then he'd gotten out for a couple years and then came back in use in special forces
[00:37:26] He was in sag I mean he this guy was a legendary guy and
[00:37:31] How did that happen that you got picked for this for this mission? How did you hear about the mission? How did you get picked?
[00:37:37] Well, I was up at Netahaley and I was training
[00:37:41] I was working with a bunch of master sergeants and been
[00:37:44] E5 and we were teaching mountain climbing in rope tie and all officers and some of the guys in seventh group
[00:37:52] And we needed some supplies so
[00:37:55] Colonel told me we went to town pick up supplies and which netahaley's about
[00:38:02] Probably 250 300 miles from Fort Brank so I went back down in a brang and
[00:38:08] And a couple of my buddies said when I got down and they said hey, did you see where bullseyements is looking for
[00:38:15] Volunteers and of course bullseyements. I mean just I mean that was enough to
[00:38:21] Excite you and you didn't want to be there so
[00:38:25] I said well I'm gonna go down see what he's talking about because they said if you and he was gonna be down
[00:38:30] It's a we call it a little White House. They're for brang
[00:38:34] I got down there. It was packed. I mean they were probably 500 plus
[00:38:38] Special forces guys there and bull came out on the stage and he always had a little cigar in his mouth
[00:38:46] He never smoked it. I don't know. He just too none of you
[00:38:49] But he yeah, I had never seen the guy so that was kind of my first
[00:38:55] Introduction to Colonel send up and he looks like a legend
[00:39:00] He's his physical appearance. He looks like a lift. He is a legend
[00:39:05] I mean he's yeah, there's no doubt about that and
[00:39:11] So when he came on stage you know he said I was looking for
[00:39:15] Some volunteers or a moderately hazardous mission and
[00:39:20] I always wondered what he called hazardous
[00:39:24] Compared to what we were
[00:39:26] He didn't ready to go do but he said there's no TDY
[00:39:31] So you know that eliminated some guys
[00:39:33] You know everybody was temporary money
[00:39:36] duty money and he said if you're interested get back here
[00:39:40] We'll start the interview process at that 13 hundred hours
[00:39:44] so I went back and
[00:39:49] Put my name on the list and the next I
[00:39:53] came back to
[00:39:55] I mean they had two certain majors doing a lot of the interviewing two commands hard majors and
[00:40:02] We were in an in line at the seventh group
[00:40:05] Facility billets and
[00:40:08] He was about probably about five thirty I guess and I was sitting there and nobody's called me and nobody's called me and everybody else pretty much
[00:40:16] God and
[00:40:17] Alex these two
[00:40:19] Hard majors and they're walking out the door and I'm thinking
[00:40:22] Well, they didn't interview me and so I were in after him and holiday them
[00:40:27] I said you know hey you guys didn't interview me
[00:40:31] And they said what's your name and I said buckler and they said
[00:40:35] Well, and he had a clipboard on him look at he says
[00:40:38] I don't have your two on one file
[00:40:40] That's the military and army that's your
[00:40:44] File tells you everything about who you are and what you've done in your record and I said they said
[00:40:50] Well, I'm on interview and they said well you get your two on one file be back here first thing in the morning morning or
[00:40:57] You so okay, so
[00:40:59] Buddy man at that time was one of my roommates or a bunch of us lived off base
[00:41:04] You know we had seven of us in
[00:41:07] In the sixth and seven of us in the seventh group so we were only time we were together with payday and holidays
[00:41:15] and so we kind of
[00:41:17] The neighborhood I think was glad to see us move, but
[00:41:22] You know, he was a deputy sheriff who lived down the road from us and he was always stopping by and see guys
[00:41:27] Can you just hold it down just a little bit?
[00:41:30] Yeah, so anyway
[00:41:35] I went in for the interview you know and they asked me if I could weld and I said
[00:41:41] I grew up on farm and our neighbor Sam welded everything we ever broke because I looked at that
[00:41:46] I thought I can do that so I said yeah, I'm a welder and you so you felt like you could weld because you watched your buddy
[00:41:53] Well, okay, I like it. I like your attitude. Let's get back to you. I didn't have a welder so I went have to
[00:42:00] Prove myself yeah
[00:42:02] And then I went and know if I did scuba and I
[00:42:05] Had met that point nine scuba so I said no, I don't know scuba and then just ask me some general questions
[00:42:12] You know what how much combat have you been and I'm thinking they got my 201 file. I have no combat experience
[00:42:19] And so I said no, I know then so I said okay, well, thanks
[00:42:25] I thought well at least they let me interview so you know, thank you and I walked out the door
[00:42:30] Back up to not a daily been and a couple of days later
[00:42:34] A kernel from our called me and there's office up at the not a daily there and he says a
[00:42:41] Pack your bag
[00:42:43] That's a whoa, okay
[00:42:45] He says you made bull Simon's list and I said really and he said yep, so I said okay and
[00:42:53] Dad, I went you know, I'm very excited not even knowing what we're gonna do just the fact that
[00:42:59] We made it. Did you have any idea why they selected you to this day?
[00:43:03] I know the thing I could figure out is they needed some
[00:43:08] In special forces aside from your crack welding skills
[00:43:19] I think what they needed was some grunts and in special forces the knee five is the laws rang
[00:43:26] So they I was on the advanced party and we went down and set up the compound and
[00:43:32] We when they swept the building we put the consentino wire around and put the fuel phone now and then I pulled guard duty
[00:43:40] On the bet we had to guard that building 24 by seven and I thought it was a little unusual because
[00:43:46] When we pulled guard duty it bragged yet you got a
[00:43:50] 16 in one round maybe and
[00:43:53] And this when we had him 16 and full round and my orders if that goes south shoot and that
[00:43:59] I thought there's some series on this mission that they're not telling everybody about but you know
[00:44:06] We did what we were told to do and
[00:44:10] That's I pulled guard duty and when I went and pulled guard duty
[00:44:14] I was either sleeping or training because I had to train with the other guys during when I wasn't pulled in guard duty
[00:44:24] You say this so you fly down there and where's the location fly to and in an eggland
[00:44:29] Air Force Base so
[00:44:32] You say now bull wasn't the only legendary officer attached to the saute raid
[00:44:37] Captain dick meadows would lead blue boy a
[00:44:41] Salt group which would land directly inside the POW camp walls and listed in
[00:44:47] 1946 a pair trooper in the Korean War in the early 60s
[00:44:51] Meadows served ascent with the British special air service in Vietnam meadows captured video footage proving North Vietnam
[00:44:58] Army was infiltrating south Vietnam and impressed general was Westmoreland so much that in 1967
[00:45:05] He received a battlefield commission directly to captain
[00:45:09] He was the commanding officer of Ranger school when bull's simons recruited him for the sauntay raid
[00:45:15] Lieutenant Colonel but Sidner was
[00:45:19] Selected by bull's simons to serve as the ground forces commander
[00:45:22] Whereas bull's simons role would be the on-scene eyes and ears of the joint contingency task group in constant
[00:45:30] Contact with general manner
[00:45:32] Lieutenant Colonel Sidner had the reputation of a gentleman and a consummate professional one day
[00:45:39] Brigadier general blackburn from the Pentagon Brigadier general manner
[00:45:43] Bull's simons and Captain dick meadows
[00:45:46] Showed up as a group and requested access to the operation center. I check their IDs and called in for someone to come out
[00:45:53] Nascort them in
[00:45:54] Lieutenant Colonel Sidner comes out the gate. Can you imagine how I felt here? I am a 20-year-old buck sergeant standing in the midst of some of the most
[00:46:02] Notable special operations forces officers ever. I remember
[00:46:07] They treated me as one of them making small talk with me after a while Lieutenant Colonel Sidner took them inside
[00:46:12] This was one of the great things about special forces the officers and enlisted men tree each other with respect
[00:46:17] I believe this is because you have to depend on one another when you operate in small teams like special forces
[00:46:23] So they were super strict about who's coming into this building?
[00:46:27] Yeah, I mean it was you didn't get in the building. I don't care how many times you've been in that building
[00:46:34] When you went back in I had to check your ID and or whoever the guard was
[00:46:40] Calling and we had a feel phone set up and calling somebody would come out and verify that they were who they were and let them in
[00:46:49] That's called them into the building and at where you go to getting to go into the building?
[00:46:53] No, no, you even know what you're guarding
[00:46:57] We used to laugh about that because we would say what I think I didn't know you know
[00:47:02] So private to see about we kept thinking women
[00:47:06] But we knew that could have me was none of us in red escorted in a meal
[00:47:12] So yeah, they were very strict. I mean on that it was
[00:47:18] They didn't want anybody in that building and there was only a limited amount of people that could get in there
[00:47:24] And I'd say probably maybe 25 to 30 at the most that were ever allowed in the building
[00:47:30] Well, you're standing in this guard duty and you're doing the best of your ability which leads us to another life lesson you have in here
[00:47:37] Life lesson two your life is significant so be excellent in everything you do no matter how
[00:47:43] In significant you think your job is it could turn out to be a life-changing position
[00:47:48] One of the reasons Captain Dan eventually selected me to be paired with him was that during all the time
[00:47:52] I spent pulling guard duty and training. I never complained but always did what was asked to me
[00:47:57] I credit my dad for instilling this attitude in my brothers and me. He always told us if you're gonna do anything
[00:48:03] Do your best
[00:48:07] correct
[00:48:09] That's an important one
[00:48:12] You go on to say here as the member as a member of the advanced party another one of our tasks was to build this large mock-up of buildings
[00:48:20] Using target canvas as the walls with doors with cutouts for windows we began constructing it on Thursday September 10th and it took us
[00:48:29] Several days to complete we didn't know why we were having to build it it wasn't until we did our first walk through during our initial training
[00:48:35] That I realized how it would be used
[00:48:38] Even then we had no idea it was a
[00:48:40] Dimensionally perfect replica of all the buildings and walls of the POW camp in saante North Vietnam
[00:48:52] Two by four is whatever jam two by four is near the dirt and then build little buildings
[00:48:57] Full size walk-throughs
[00:48:59] It looked like toilet paper on
[00:49:03] wrapped on a
[00:49:04] Two before so it reminded me you know, but and one of the things we finally clarified in and the book was
[00:49:13] Everybody said we used to take it down every night
[00:49:16] Well, you know, it took us a week to build it and then we weren't gonna take that down every night
[00:49:22] Because they I mean we trained
[00:49:25] Most of our training was at night
[00:49:28] And so there's no way we could take it down and put it back up
[00:49:32] But and one of the air force guys that actually guarded it
[00:49:36] I said that confirmed that force in the book and we were trying to find out who can we talk to them
[00:49:43] And the air force guys said no, I said it was even up after you guys left
[00:49:47] But they did fly over it and take pictures
[00:49:50] Right so they wanted to confirm that the
[00:49:53] Whatever the Russians couldn't see it from satellites or from flyovers and aircraft or whatever exactly
[00:49:59] Yep, but but somebody hadn't started the rumor that it was so secret that you would take it down
[00:50:04] Yeah, all every day. Yeah, that's exactly right
[00:50:11] Fast forward a little bit talking about some of the training you do you were doing on Wednesday
[00:50:15] September 9th about a week after we arrived as the advance part of the other 78 or so green berets arrived
[00:50:20] That we started our training the first 30 days of training were intense each day started with PT followed by running the meadows mile
[00:50:28] Dick Meadows love to run and he led many many of our runs now I like to run but not like Captain Meadows
[00:50:35] If you were not in shape you soon would be I think this was one of the reasons I was selected as one of the Raiders
[00:50:41] I was by no means the biggest man in fact. I was the second shortest the shortest Raider was also the oldest NCO
[00:50:49] Master Sergeant Galen Papi Kittelsen
[00:50:52] Papi was no stranger to combat
[00:50:54] Papi and I had several things in common we were both short and stocky built
[00:50:58] We both grown up on a farm in the Midwest in World War II
[00:51:02] Papi was the youngest man in the raid on on the POW camp in the Philippines
[00:51:07] I was the youngest man on this raid
[00:51:08] 25 years junior to Papi
[00:51:13] That's pretty awesome so he's he's what 45 then because you're 20 right he's 45 years old
[00:51:19] Hmm and you're working with all these legends with all this combat experience and you know
[00:51:25] What's interesting to me was none of those guys ever let on like they were greater than anybody else
[00:51:31] I mean they were right there with us and if you had a question they answered for you and I mean they wanted to
[00:51:38] and I remember when we when we told the
[00:51:41] Packer bag we were leaving and we didn't have a at that time we didn't have a minister anything
[00:51:49] so Papi was a Christian and he said I'm gonna have a prayer service over in the building
[00:51:56] If you guys want to anybody must come come and what I walked in there I was amazed at how many of these guys
[00:52:02] I didn't think it's Pil God were there on their knees praying and
[00:52:07] And Papi was a lead miss and I'm made an impression on me that know that
[00:52:14] You're not in control of anything you just think you are and the man upstairs is the one in charge
[00:52:21] So
[00:52:25] Getting into some of this training you say our our training began with us walking through our positions
[00:52:30] Over and over again in daylight during the first month
[00:52:33] There were several changes to how we performed our mission each person had specific tasks to perform
[00:52:39] Not only do we have to know our own role, but we had to know the role of the man to our left and right and where they would be when the
[00:52:45] Firing started Captain Dan and I were a two-man team
[00:52:49] As the RTO for red blind security group my job as Captain Dan put it I want you at arms length for me or I will be the one to shoot you
[00:52:58] And if you knew Captain Dan he would have so you can bet I stayed damn close to him the primary job of our two-man team was to make our way to the
[00:53:07] Communications building as fast as we could to neutralize the people inside before they could radio for reinforcements
[00:53:15] We had two buildings to clear before we could get to the communication building
[00:53:20] The technique we use for clearing a building was different from what our troops used today
[00:53:24] As a two-man team we would first toss a concussion grenade into the building
[00:53:28] Why use a concussion grenade and not a frag grenade the answer is very simple
[00:53:33] The buildings were we were clearing of bad guys were not made of concrete
[00:53:37] But of a thin material that a piece of flood frag would fly through
[00:53:41] Captain Dan would stand to one side of the doorway and I would position myself on these other side across from him
[00:53:47] When the concussion grenade exploded it would generally blow the door open or in some cases
[00:53:53] Completely off as soon as the grenade exploded
[00:53:56] Captain Dan would dive to the floor at the threshold firing in the room from the top left to the bottom right at the same time
[00:54:05] I would step over him
[00:54:07] Firing top right to bottom left by this we created an X covering all the space in the room
[00:54:13] Captain Dan would remain on the floor and I would back out and shine my flashlight into the room
[00:54:18] So Captain Dan could confirm that we had neutralized everyone
[00:54:21] I would then put in a new clip depending on if I'd fired any trace around
[00:54:26] Captain Dan taught me that in combat you don't have to you don't have time to count how many bullets you fired
[00:54:31] The technique is to first load five trace around and then finish filling the magazine when you're in a firefight
[00:54:38] And you see trace or smoking out the end of your barrel you know you need to change magazines
[00:54:46] That's a wild way to clear rules
[00:54:48] And I got to make a note here so when you say concussion grenade so a lot of times like we
[00:54:55] What we use now we use something all the time called a a crash grenade or a flash grenade or a flashbang
[00:55:02] And those create a boom and a flash
[00:55:05] But a concussion grenade is big it's a different thing it's not the same as it's not the same as a flashbang at all
[00:55:12] It's a big in fact there they're a lot bigger than a frag grenade right they're they're really big and they create a massive explosion
[00:55:21] Now there's no fragmentation as you mentioned
[00:55:24] But it is a massive explosion and when you when that happens inside of a closed room
[00:55:31] You know even if the doors are the walls aren't that strong
[00:55:34] It's gonna create an issue and what did what did you think the walls were gonna be made of there in the camp?
[00:55:42] Well, we we anticipated being made just kind of like a patch, you know, maybe in Adobe
[00:55:48] The compound itself was kind of a brick wall
[00:55:51] But you know remember the French were in there before and we were there and they had built the compound
[00:55:59] But the buildings on the outside were in the doors were really on the far as the solid doors, you know, they were
[00:56:11] Pretty flimsy so you so you toss a concussion grenade into the room
[00:56:17] Then
[00:56:18] Captain Dan dives to the floor in the doorway and
[00:56:22] Stunloads of magas, you know in full auto from the top left to the bottom right
[00:56:27] While you while he's doing that you straddle him in the doorway and fire a full mag on auto going top right to bottom left
[00:56:36] Yep, this is
[00:56:38] This is serious business. It was our own technique
[00:56:43] When we were trying to figure out how to best do it. This is Dan's idea
[00:56:48] Well, he said oh, he's a floor. You straddle me and you know and then when you're
[00:56:54] I'll fire this way you fire that away and we'll create a dex
[00:56:59] And hopefully that would put everybody down and they could see our mission was not to take P.O. devias
[00:57:05] And we had to go through that same area coming back and
[00:57:09] We had both Simon said I don't want anything holding us up
[00:57:13] So you neutralize everybody on the way through and that was our orders and that's what we did and you know
[00:57:21] the
[00:57:23] Our way of clearing a building is quite different in the way they cleared a day
[00:57:28] We didn't worry about collateral damage, you know, you were the bad guy and that's what it was gonna be
[00:57:34] So we made sure that
[00:57:37] We neutralized and moved on to the next building
[00:57:41] Now, were you worried about where you're
[00:57:44] What did you guys plan in such a way that your bullets
[00:57:47] That were going through this building that there was no friendlies on the other side
[00:57:51] Did you guys have the whole thing kind of mapped out?
[00:57:52] Yeah, we would that friendly fire. Yeah, in fact even when the choppers came in it took out the guard towers
[00:58:00] We made sure that we were shooting into one of the
[00:58:05] cells of the P.O. devias in fact in order to do that
[00:58:11] One of the P.J. said, you know, he could fire and not hit the cell so what they did they put a
[00:58:19] a sheet up
[00:58:21] And tested and the guy did exactly what he said he did. Yeah, I mean it took out the guard tower
[00:58:28] But didn't have anything near close to the cells
[00:58:32] So when they when we flew in in live mode
[00:58:36] That's what they did to take out a couple of the towers and then there was one tower that we had
[00:58:43] The blue boy had to take out because it was in a situation when we didn't
[00:58:48] Confire into it and not think we might hit a P.O. devias
[00:58:53] So that's how we did things and it was
[00:59:01] It worked you know the only thing that was bad about it is the hearing that it
[00:59:07] Like you said those concussion grenades are brutal and we didn't
[00:59:12] I had a headset and I had my headset where one was on and one was off
[00:59:18] But you take your friend and your
[00:59:22] Hope that you could hear something after I came back and there's probably a good couple of months
[00:59:28] I was just in my hearing today is gone
[00:59:32] From and I
[00:59:34] Much of is from the
[00:59:36] Concussion grenades because I mean the idea the concussion is below your eyes not ears out
[00:59:42] Yeah, that's what it's supposed to do is blow people clear drums out
[00:59:45] Yeah, it does
[00:59:48] It's interesting because when I first got in the seal teams we we didn't have a very big budget and and some of the training that we would do
[00:59:57] For our kill houses that we would set up they were just made a plywood
[01:00:00] So it was actually harder in some ways because you had to be aware of
[01:00:05] Where everyone else was in the house or in the building because if you shot around into a target
[01:00:11] Or you missed the target and we would have built bullet traps sometimes we'd have bullet traps
[01:00:15] But a lot of times we would be just be suit and paper silhouette and so the bullet would go through the whole house
[01:00:21] Yeah, and so we had to organize these things that you were all
[01:00:25] Kind of staying online even as you move through a clearance of a building in order to be safe and and then
[01:00:31] Eventually we ended up getting really nice ballistic walls and then you get a lot
[01:00:35] It's a lot easier to do and luckily where were you're fighting in
[01:00:38] I rack most of the time you know it was it was concrete walls or whatever
[01:00:42] So you could you could actually shoot in rooms and you they wouldn't generally go through the walls
[01:00:47] But it takes a different level of planning when you have to account for
[01:00:52] Your rounds just continuing down range even pass through you know the building that you're in
[01:00:57] I mean the collateral damage on something like that could be pretty high if
[01:01:02] Yeah, I mean when I we got a
[01:01:05] Terry buck and Lieutenant Dan spray in 30 round bags if that if you don't if you don't have a good plan
[01:01:11] That's gonna you're gonna shoot your own people
[01:01:13] So you guys had to think through a lot of these things in a lot of detail and the good thing is where you were training was the same thing
[01:01:19] Wasn't like you were training a ballistic house you were shooting through
[01:01:22] You know just just whatever paper or whatever
[01:01:27] From all this training you put together life lesson three
[01:01:31] You say in your work always be training and improving during the first month of our training
[01:01:36] There were several changes made to how we approached our positions
[01:01:40] I learned a very important lesson in vest timing time and training it pays off
[01:01:45] Just like a football team trains for the big game
[01:01:48] We were training for our big game the major difference our lives depended on how well we performed
[01:01:54] Training sometimes gets boring but when the bullets start flying in both directions
[01:01:58] You're sure glad that you know what is expected of you and your team members
[01:02:06] And you know
[01:02:08] That that probably
[01:02:11] Is one of the more
[01:02:13] Important messages that I think
[01:02:17] Could come out of this book because
[01:02:21] I think the training that we did saved our lives because we had
[01:02:26] I mean we had 177 rehearsals and
[01:02:31] Part of those were alternate you know like if red wine went down
[01:02:35] It was red wine alternate red wine greenly went down was alternate greenly
[01:02:40] Well, we were setting down
[01:02:42] That night in San Te and I'm listening on my radio and I'm here
[01:02:49] Alternate playing green
[01:02:51] And you think the plucker factor didn't jump up there because you just lost one third
[01:02:56] We'll get to it, but that at that moment you lost one third of your assault force
[01:03:00] But our training and the training that we did paid off in spades because we we knew how to react
[01:03:08] And it wasn't like oh now what do we do we know what to do we train for it and
[01:03:15] The planners of this Sunday
[01:03:17] Have done such an and matching job of thinking of all the different
[01:03:24] scenarios the only one they didn't think about it was the P on that he's not being there
[01:03:30] That was the one that we just I mean Florida everybody
[01:03:33] No, but
[01:03:35] Yeah, and even I thought through that and we'll get to the actual rate itself, but as much planning went into it
[01:03:42] And as much they tried to think of all the different scenarios that could take place
[01:03:46] Something happened that they didn't plan for which is
[01:03:50] Once it green leaf
[01:03:52] Came back to the target site so you had to do a link up which is one of the hardest things to do in a combat zone is linking up with friendly forces
[01:03:59] In fact, I think it's the hardest thing to do
[01:04:01] The hardest thing to do in combat is link up with friendly forces
[01:04:05] And they basically like they they got all just like we did anything in front of you was open game
[01:04:11] And you know we were and for a few minutes there it got pretty testy and
[01:04:17] You know I have to compliment some of the guys that were on green leaf, you know
[01:04:23] They they knew they were coming back in on a hot LZ
[01:04:27] But they also knew that you know
[01:04:30] There's friendly guys out front too and they had to restrain themselves
[01:04:36] It was a pretty good
[01:04:38] Yeah
[01:04:40] And they were coming from a firefight themselves
[01:04:42] So they got hot weapons there there amped up they hear you guys shooting 400 yards away and how they're landing the helicopters and and so it's a
[01:04:51] Testimate to the training not just to the rehearsal of hey, this is exactly what's gonna happen and here's the contingency plan
[01:04:58] But here's something that we didn't expect to happen
[01:05:00] But we still have the good standard operating procedures the presence of mine to make to make the right decisions and that's a testin
[01:05:07] It's all this training. Oh, it was I mean, and that's not that's when I speak to military groups today
[01:05:12] I said I know we all hate to train but I can tell you I am living proof that what they we trained on probably saved a bunch of lives
[01:05:21] You know and
[01:05:24] Awesome life lesson
[01:05:27] Going back to the book you said is one of the six guys assigned to guard the tactical operations
[01:05:32] And I started to see that I might miss out on some of the key training if I wanted to have a chance to get in selected for one of the assault force teams
[01:05:38] I had to train when I was not pulling guard duty
[01:05:41] Security was so tight that we didn't know who we would be rescuing or in what part of the world the mission would take place
[01:05:47] There was a lot of speculation that it might be an attempt to free prisoners in Cuba
[01:05:51] Based on the three hour flying time of the mission
[01:05:53] I had been training and pulling guard duty for about a month when I got my chance to speak up
[01:05:58] I was checking Colonel Bill's whole Simon's
[01:06:01] For access to the talk building while we were waiting for an escort to take the bull in
[01:06:07] He asked how things were going for me
[01:06:10] I knew that he was only going to pick some of us for the actual mission
[01:06:14] So I said sir
[01:06:16] I didn't volunteer to come here and pull guard duty if I wanted to pull guard duty
[01:06:20] I would have stayed at Fort Bragg
[01:06:23] Now bull always had a two inch cigar that he chewed on he looked me right in the eyes and said young man hanging there
[01:06:29] Things are going to change pretty soon after that he went to the building. I thought to myself
[01:06:33] What the hell did I just do first I chewed out to him sergeant majors back at Fort Bragg trying to get on this mission
[01:06:38] Now I just told a Colonel and not just any Colonel but bull's Simon's that I was tired of pulling guard duty
[01:06:43] I
[01:06:44] Just bitched to the bull about pulling guard duty. I
[01:06:48] Thought well, I'll probably end up pulling guard duty for the rest of my time in the army
[01:06:53] However, what he said was true within the next week things did change
[01:06:57] The first cut was made on Friday, September 18th
[01:07:00] They selected 51 men and an additional 10 men were identified as backup that could be used in any of the different elements
[01:07:08] I was selected to be a part of the red wine security group
[01:07:12] I would be the RTO for Captain Dan Turner no more guard duty for me
[01:07:17] The three groups were each placed in their own areas in the barracks building to help the team concept
[01:07:23] You know what why do you think you got selected?
[01:07:28] I
[01:07:30] I said an email to Dan Turner
[01:07:33] Dan's passed away, but before he passed away. I sent him an email asking him that and
[01:07:39] He he said basically I didn't bitch about whatever I was asked to do and he said he always had a
[01:07:47] Great attitude that you know, I can do that and whether I could do it or not
[01:07:54] I took the attitude that I could get it done and
[01:07:58] He just felt like I I was older than the 20 year old that
[01:08:04] He was accustomed to so and I think that's
[01:08:09] Tributed to just growing up in a farm and you know
[01:08:13] you do things that
[01:08:15] You know I started driving a tractor I was six years old
[01:08:19] You know as you know was just I had to keep it between the bales a hey
[01:08:26] When we were picking up a and that was about it, you know, but that's
[01:08:31] You do things on farm back in those days that you wouldn't have thought about doing but
[01:08:38] That was I was confident that I could do the right job for him and
[01:08:44] Hopefully I did
[01:08:48] This also leads to another life lesson life lesson number four
[01:08:52] You say have patience and aggressiveness and
[01:08:55] Contentment guarding the talk we are not allowed to know the why as I saw my opportunity slipping away
[01:09:01] I was aggressive hungry to be in the middle of the action
[01:09:03] That's okay. It's not a fault to be aggressive. It's a virtue
[01:09:06] If you can choose in your heart and in your mind to be at peace and to be thankful trusting God with the outcome
[01:09:15] So you got to know we got to be patient at the same time. You know you know sometimes you got to approach the bull
[01:09:21] Yeah
[01:09:23] Yeah
[01:09:25] And he yeah
[01:09:27] I could tell he wasn't offended by it, you know, he just
[01:09:30] He asked the question I thought here's my opportunity to tell him, you know, if he's saying
[01:09:36] I'm just gotta go with it. I mean, that's what you're looking for when you're in charge of a team
[01:09:42] You want someone that wants to go that wants to step up and that's he's fresh any gave him for sure
[01:09:48] You say in our training at four bragg we used blanks, but for our training here at auxiliary field three
[01:09:54] We used live ammunition. I remember one day
[01:09:56] We were throwing frag grenades and one of the guys got hit with some shrapnel. There's only a minor cut, but it drove home the point that we needed to stay sharp
[01:10:03] By the end of the first month, we had practiced until every person knew not only his own position
[01:10:08] But also the job of every person around him and the alternate plans
[01:10:14] Then we started practicing at night
[01:10:18] This is a serious rehearsal's going on
[01:10:20] um
[01:10:23] You go on to say when we first started training using the helicopters the plan called for Captain Dan to be the first man off and for me to be the second
[01:10:31] Now I'd watched enough warm movies to know that the first man off any vehicle get killed
[01:10:36] For a couple of weeks we trained this way. I thought oh shit
[01:10:39] We aren't even gonna make it off the chopper. I can now admit that every time I stepped off the chopper
[01:10:45] The thought went through my mind of getting zapped before my foot even hit the ground
[01:10:49] Then after a few rehearsals the plan changed to wear Captain Dan and I would the last two off the chopper
[01:10:55] All of a sudden I thought damn now that I'm the last guy off the bad guys will have their sights locked on
[01:11:01] I will get nailed for sure
[01:11:03] eventually I had to admit that if the good Lord wants me he doesn't care from the first the last or the middle
[01:11:10] My maker is going to bring me home when it's my time
[01:11:13] That's a some good young pair of the way
[01:11:19] Either way you're getting shot
[01:11:23] You say life less and five and this is an important one be prepared for death
[01:11:28] Don't worry about it. You can't completely control it
[01:11:32] Make sure that the day you meet your maker is not the first time you've been introduced
[01:11:36] If you are prepared at all times you're free to live life fearless and that was your attitude
[01:11:44] Eventually you sat to say you know what weathering first weathering last if it's my time it's my time
[01:11:48] I can only control so much and you know that point was really driven home last week when my wife passed away that
[01:11:56] You know
[01:11:58] She she was prepared to meet her maker. I know that and
[01:12:02] She's in a better place today because of that so it holds true in my mind
[01:12:16] Well, I mean it's it's a testament when you can say that
[01:12:20] You know that your wife who lived an amazing life and and she passed away and you know we were talking before
[01:12:28] We we started that you said well, we're gonna come out here anyways. We're gonna record this thing because she would want me to carry on with the mission
[01:12:41] Yeah, that's it's an important part of the book, you know, and
[01:12:46] I think that I think that happens with young guys going into combat
[01:12:51] You have to get to a point where you say mail. You know what this could
[01:12:55] I could die tonight. Yeah, and but you could do that while I'm gonna cross the road could do that walk in across the road and
[01:13:01] You can only control the things you control you can train hard
[01:13:04] You can prepare you can study the plan you can mitigate the risk
[01:13:08] But there's some risk you're not gonna be able to mitigate right and if you concentrate on those things
[01:13:13] It's gonna drive you crazy. I'm gonna say it takes away from everything else. Yeah
[01:13:18] Exactly
[01:13:20] You talk more about some of the training that you did again. You got to buy the book to get all all the details
[01:13:26] You talk about some of the Friday night fights which was they would bring like a band and and
[01:13:33] Boozing women and they had like a bar set up and so you do that on Friday nights
[01:13:39] And again, it's crazy to think that you guys still didn't know where you were going
[01:13:43] You guys had no idea where you're going. You thought you might be going to Cuba
[01:13:47] I think there was somewhere else you thought you might be going to replace hijacked on tarmacs around the
[01:13:52] Camorole that we thought we might be going into
[01:13:56] Rescue you know people on hijacked planes, so you have no idea what you're doing
[01:14:01] No, which and everybody you know it was we didn't know we just knew we were gonna do some type of rescue and
[01:14:09] We trained
[01:14:11] Fort and did you know that it was real?
[01:14:14] So
[01:14:16] So no okay because I know sometimes we would get spun up in such a way where they'd be like
[01:14:21] Hey, we got a mission and we think actually this the very first deployment I went on
[01:14:26] We got recalled we had little beepers now
[01:14:29] I was in Guam and we had beepers and they said hey if this thing shows up nine one one
[01:14:34] You know you got 20 minutes to get to base because some's going on
[01:14:39] So we get there and I'm I'm
[01:14:41] I guess I'm 19 or 20 at this point
[01:14:44] Maybe I'm 20 or 21 but anyways, I'm young and very dumb and I also think that I'm you know
[01:14:50] I think I'm going to be at mom. You know, I think I'm I think I'm gonna be like the combination of James Bond and Rambo and everybody else
[01:14:57] So we show up in Guam on deployment my Pseal Patoon
[01:15:02] It's 1993 anyways, but I think there's just you know this is it
[01:15:09] We're gonna war hmm so we go out we get all we go out the range we get all of our weapons dialed in and I'm just
[01:15:18] Totally ready and then
[01:15:23] I'm doing something and I get that the 911 on my page and I hope there you go here it is it's on it's go time
[01:15:31] And we run you know rushing to back to base sitting our opportunity in space and my leading petty officer comes in and says
[01:15:40] Hey, they went and inspected the range we didn't do a good job
[01:15:44] We got to go clean up our brass
[01:15:48] So
[01:15:51] Not exactly what I anticipate
[01:15:53] But yeah, so you guys are doing this Friday night oh my point was that
[01:16:02] We would sometimes get recalled to do something and they wouldn't tell us it was training
[01:16:08] Until like we were ready to launch or and we some guys would know some guys
[01:16:13] Bego this is just training but of course I'd be like no way man. It's real. You know
[01:16:17] But you guys so did some of you think maybe this is just a big training operation and the beginning we kind into it
[01:16:26] But with bull being in charge and all the you know we saw a lot of
[01:16:34] Brass around us, you know this is the first mission ever to be in the direct control the joint chiefs of staff
[01:16:42] We didn't know that at the time either. I mean we we knew that there was guys in worshiping coming down
[01:16:49] Ever once a while and they would go into the building and we'd think why are they there?
[01:16:54] You know, but you know nobody ever explained to us that you know they were doing the same thing up in worshiping DC
[01:17:01] But
[01:17:03] It was
[01:17:05] We just kind of kept the dark and fed on bullshit and that's that's
[01:17:13] We started
[01:17:16] We were just told do our job. Yeah, that's what we were doing
[01:17:21] Speaking of Friday night fights you say there's one interesting incident that sticks in my mind
[01:17:26] Our barracks were two stories world were two style with one big open bay for all of us
[01:17:30] I was on the first floor and our beds were lined up on each side of the room
[01:17:34] It was about one thirty a.m. when I was awakened by crashing noises just four bumps down from mine
[01:17:39] It was three nco's wrestling a master sergeant to the floor in our barracks apparently the master sergeant after quite a few drinks
[01:17:47] Had a disagreement with bulls Simon's at the bar
[01:17:50] Concerning how the team should perform their mission and was frustrated that the troops were being kept in the dark
[01:17:55] The discussion got heated and the nco came back to his barracks to get his weapon to first sway the good
[01:18:00] Colonel to use his ideas the guys in the barracks held the nco until he eventually cooled down
[01:18:07] The next morning the bull and the nco were on the PT field the bull had the nco
[01:18:11] Heels locked at attention while he chewed his butt up one side and down the other the bull convinced him that he should not
[01:18:18] Disagree with him again at least not with a threat of bodily harm
[01:18:23] But the bull did not let this effect his relationship with the nco or anybody else the bull always said
[01:18:28] He didn't want a bunch of boy scouts. We always look forward to Friday night fights
[01:18:33] And this is classic the following entry was made into the official
[01:18:37] Talk record of events. I believe this is the very discussion with that master sergeant
[01:18:42] And so this is a quote from the actual record it says 27 October
[01:18:47] 1715
[01:18:49] Colonel Simon's discussed grievances with operational personnel and discuss progress and quote
[01:18:55] Well
[01:19:00] Yeah, that was
[01:19:03] That was an interesting
[01:19:04] Evening and more and then the next day and we were we were all looking out the window thinking boy
[01:19:10] When you like be a little mouse here and with that conversation about but I mean it was over and
[01:19:17] He but on the mission with us and
[01:19:20] He
[01:19:21] But the bull said you know, he didn't want boy scouts. Yeah, he didn't have any so yeah, I know as a leader
[01:19:27] You want to have guys that are gonna push back if they disagree with you because you might have a bad idea
[01:19:32] Now you don't want them to go to their barracks and try and grab a weapon
[01:19:37] But you do want to hear there
[01:19:40] What they're gonna say and what why they think that? I know
[01:19:45] Fast forward a little bit
[01:19:48] Monday November 16th
[01:19:49] 1970
[01:19:51] We were told the packard gear that we were leaving
[01:19:53] Eglina Air Force Base for a new undisclosed location the next day
[01:19:57] We didn't have a chaplain to our group in our group. We did have
[01:20:00] Papy papy announced that he would be holding a prayer service in the barracks
[01:20:03] Papy was respected by all the raiders and officers from the bull
[01:20:08] Down the chain of command and World War II papy had been an alamo scout just like bull Simon's
[01:20:13] They had both been on the raid that freed five hundred POWs
[01:20:17] There's a
[01:20:19] 2005 major motion picture called the great raid
[01:20:22] Papy was pretty famous in the army particular in special forces
[01:20:26] When I walked into the barracks where Papy was holding the prayer service it really struck me how many of these seasoned
[01:20:32] Soldiers were there to pray on their knees to our father and heaven
[01:20:35] I can tell you there were no atheists in our group
[01:20:41] The next morning you guys get on board us see 141
[01:20:44] First place you land is California next place you land is Alaska and you still don't know where you're going
[01:20:50] No, they still have not told you where you're going
[01:20:54] The next stop would be our new home for a few days. It was a long flight
[01:20:57] We didn't get much sleep, but at least we touched down at our final destination. It was November 18th at 3 a.m.
[01:21:03] When we stopped
[01:21:04] When we stepped off the C140 directly into a large hanger they loaded us into what what I thought were bread trucks
[01:21:11] The air in this dark land had a sweet tropical smell warm and humid the old warriors thought we were in southeast Asia
[01:21:17] But we're not certain
[01:21:18] We never knew it until many years later, but this was the CIA compound at the tackling
[01:21:24] Is it saying that right?
[01:21:25] Tackly royal tie air force base when our trucks arrived at some barracks most of us went straight to bed
[01:21:31] Our trip had taken 28 hours
[01:21:33] So even know where you are
[01:21:35] Some of the old timers are thinking hey, kind of smells like southeast Asia. That's about all I got
[01:21:43] We were awakened at 6 a.m. had breakfast and went about our morning as normal
[01:21:47] We were told to be at the mess hall to 11 a.m. a little earlier than normal lunch during lunch
[01:21:52] We were told to go to our barracks immediately after we finished eating and get some sleep
[01:21:57] To ensure we got some sleep lieutenant-cruel Joe Kataldo our doctor who would be going on the mission and into the compound with us
[01:22:04] Required everyone of us to take a sleeping pill as we exited the mess hall as we walked toward the barracks the old timers
[01:22:10] Explain that they had never had to do that before it was pretty clear that this would be the night
[01:22:15] I spent the rest of the afternoon walking around the compound and talking to the other raiders about what they thought was going on
[01:22:21] The time passed very slowly that afternoon by 5 p.m. everyone was awakened from our bunks and told to get to the mess hall for dinner
[01:22:30] then meet in the theater in 1800
[01:22:32] By 1730 we started filling the theater you could tell
[01:22:37] Everyone was getting pumped for what we were about to learn
[01:22:43] And this is where you get the the speech that I opened this whole thing up with where you finally find out
[01:22:50] Where you're where you're actually going these are got no idea and that the way you write about that that reaction that everybody had
[01:22:58] Mm-hmm. Would you say I mean I would imagine that all these other possible missions that you could be going on
[01:23:04] There would be none more
[01:23:06] Favorable
[01:23:07] Then going to actually rescue other American and service members in Vietnam. I mean that's
[01:23:14] That's the that's the pinnacle. Yeah, that's what we thought to
[01:23:18] I mean we were ready to had they been there there been home that night
[01:23:22] All 70 or more
[01:23:30] So you get that speech
[01:23:32] You say at 2100 the bread trucks took us to a hanger that we used as our staging area
[01:23:37] We checked our weapons. I carried a cult m1911 a 45 caliber pistol my machine gun was a car 15 with 820 round magazines and
[01:23:45] 530 round magazines
[01:23:47] I used the tips I'd learned from Captain Dan on how I should load my magazines. I strapped on two
[01:23:53] Frag grenades and 10 concussion grenades
[01:23:56] Captain Dan told me that if we ended up needing to use frags well, we were probably in some deep shit
[01:24:00] So I hope that did not have to use them
[01:24:03] We use the concussion grenades and clear in clearing the buildings my next task was to check the batteries on both my radios
[01:24:08] I checked my handset and my headset on my prick 25
[01:24:12] That's the way we were we were to communicate with Lieutenant Colonel Sidner's ground command team the headset
[01:24:18] allowed me to listen to the radio traffic and still fire my weapon and toss grenades
[01:24:23] each radar carried a survival radio a prick 90
[01:24:27] When you turn on these radios they send out a warble tone that allows saw or search and rescue team to pull you out of a hot situation
[01:24:33] Among the 56 radar radars we had 92 radios
[01:24:42] So you're getting your gear ready
[01:24:46] And you go through some you get it's pretty cool and here you know for people that are going to get the book which I'm sure is a lot
[01:24:51] You go through like a gear list of absolutely everything that you're carrying every all the specialty gear that you had
[01:24:57] Change saws the guys were carrying welder
[01:25:04] That's a large welder which even though despite your incredible welding skills you didn't get aside
[01:25:10] Decided to somebody else tiny
[01:25:14] Probably about six to six three
[01:25:17] He could I was pretty easy but nobody wanted me around tiny
[01:25:21] Good shot. He those tanks get shot. It's gonna be a disaster
[01:25:27] Time to go see 130 landed at you doing at 2300 ushered out you guys are ushered out to your age age 53 choppers
[01:25:37] And here we go at 2317 with all the green berets aboard Apple to lift it off
[01:25:42] Forming up with the other five helicopters and lime one and lime two the four engine c 130
[01:25:48] Hercules tankers that would take us to the border of North Vietnam during our training we had only made the full three hour long flight twice
[01:25:57] The idea I think was to keep us from trying to figure out what we might be going what I remember about that night was how hot it was and
[01:26:05] And at the sky was very clear
[01:26:08] On that long chopper flight from you don't to sauntay. I spent a lot of time in prayer
[01:26:13] You can learn a little bit about yourself seeing what your mind latches onto when you know that in a few hours you might be meeting your maker
[01:26:23] God has an important port. God has been important part of my life as long as I can remember my mother side of the family attended church
[01:26:29] Pretty regularly compared to my dad's side the bucklers like to drink dance and party not to say they don't believe in God
[01:26:35] They just like to celebrate a little bit more
[01:26:37] After about an hour of flying most of the guys were lying back against the sides of the chopper some guys had their eyes closed
[01:26:44] Either praying or sleeping. I thought to myself these men are true warriors many of the raiders were married some had kids my age or older
[01:26:52] There was a lot of small talk. I figured each man was thinking there was not a lot of small talk
[01:26:57] I figured each man was thinking of his family each one knew the risk he was taking
[01:27:01] We were no different than other warriors before us our
[01:27:04] Military is filled with men and women who are willing to risk their life to protect this great country
[01:27:09] I sat back and had a nice little talk with the big man upstairs. I asked him protect to protect us tonight
[01:27:16] It was the longest three hours. I had ever experienced I thought about my mom and dad and how they would feel if I didn't make it back
[01:27:23] I wondered what they would think when they read the letter I had written to them before I left
[01:27:28] I thought about what my dad told me before I left for the army don't volunteer for anything
[01:27:32] So what did I do? I volunteered for airborne than special forces and now for this raid
[01:27:39] I thought mom and dad would be heading to moose lodge this weekend for a Saturday outing
[01:27:43] I thought about Doug my oldest brother who served in the Navy submarines for nine years
[01:27:47] I thought about how my brothers and I fought and the crazy things we had done on the farm
[01:27:52] I thought about the times I hunted squirrels with dad. I fought back to the first squirrel I killed
[01:27:56] I'd shot him about nine times and when dad and I were scanning it he said we might get lead poisoning when we eat this one
[01:28:04] I thought about my buddy Charlie caught him and the fun we had as kids I fought back to the times
[01:28:10] Mike and I spent riding our horses into the woods around our farms. I guess I was trying to take my mind off the mission
[01:28:16] Because I couldn't stop mentally rehearsing my duties for the mission over and over and over
[01:28:23] I got up to stretch my legs and look out the window. I would could see the other choppers in the moonlight
[01:28:29] It was like we were doing just another rehearsal so prepared we were
[01:28:35] But this was the live run we are actually going in I sat back down and said another prayer for us and waited for us to arrive at Sonte
[01:28:43] North Vietnam
[01:28:54] It's a long flight that's a long flight to be sitting there thinking about this target that you're going into
[01:28:59] Yep, it certainly was
[01:29:02] Were you and there's so many details in this book that I'm not covering
[01:29:05] Because I don't want to read the entire book but how well aware were you of the possibility of surface to air missiles?
[01:29:17] Well, we knew they had brought several of our pilots down but we weren't
[01:29:25] That wasn't on our mind you know we were grunts on the ground so that didn't you know
[01:29:31] Sam's done fact us until we had one fire that has we realized just how damn
[01:29:39] Closing God so you guys were blessed with a little bit of or at least you were of being a little bit naive
[01:29:46] Yes, and and I know that we've we've lost a lot of our
[01:29:51] naive
[01:29:53] Attitude about helicopters because we've we've taken some some
[01:29:56] horrific hits in helicopters and lost a ton of incredibly great people
[01:30:03] But but for you guys you weren't really thinking about that too much and you knew we we knew we had air cover with the A1Es
[01:30:14] And you know we had A1E flying over us all the time when we were on the compound
[01:30:20] So the bridge we were supposed to blow it because of the alternate we didn't blow it but the A1E took out
[01:30:31] The bridge force and so
[01:30:34] We knew we had good cover there and then of course we weren't that aware of what was going on at the same time
[01:30:42] From the Gulf of Tauk and you know there's a hundred sixty necraph coming in which
[01:30:47] I mean that's
[01:30:50] The largest array and Vietnam history did they brief you guys on any that no
[01:30:55] We had no idea about it till we got back because they had basically set up a massive diversionary operation
[01:31:01] Yes, on the other side of Hanoi right to to distract from what you guys were and I and I think it really worked if you
[01:31:09] You know some of the after action reports that that came back
[01:31:12] Said that you know some of the and the mixed in him could off the ground because they were confused as
[01:31:20] Where they were coming from and you know we were dropping flares over Hanoi and while we were sneaking into backside
[01:31:30] To San Tei so all their attention was coming from the Gulf of Tauk and and
[01:31:37] There was a Sam site just south of us and any aircraft as well. I mean I think we had a total of 20 Sam's fire status at
[01:31:46] night and
[01:31:48] What up the first one the first and the only one I really remember
[01:31:53] Was the one when we we had landed done our deal and we were coming out and
[01:32:00] We got on the bird and we our count was off
[01:32:05] You know, so we did another count
[01:32:09] It was still off and then so we did a third count and this time Dan Turner counted himself
[01:32:17] Which was kind of in the excitement I guess you know, but
[01:32:22] Anyways, so we we got up we
[01:32:25] We were setting the PJ between us and Dan and I were on both sides of the tail as we were leaving North Vietnam and
[01:32:32] And the
[01:32:35] Chopper is it turned and we were looking over the lights of Hanoi just like you'd be looking over the lights here in San Diego
[01:32:42] I mean couldn't believe how big it was and then we were
[01:32:48] Fly and we thought well we got it made you know we're back on the boat and we're head-nome in about that time
[01:32:54] Our chopper just dropped and we thought oh we got hit or something and about that time big
[01:33:04] Look like a light pole flying up our rear and it probably missed us by I would say no more than 200 meters
[01:33:12] It was I mean it was close and
[01:33:15] Of course our pilots we had the very best pilots the Air Force had those guys
[01:33:20] That's where they they did a fantastic job of getting us in getting us out and
[01:33:26] It was it was a bit that's where that's where I really got scared honestly because you know
[01:33:34] I kind of had control of everything on the ground but when you're up there
[01:33:38] That's pilots man. I have a lot of respect for those guys. They're sitting ducks and and you know they
[01:33:44] And we lost one none of the choppers but one the
[01:33:50] Jets
[01:33:51] Was taken out by that night
[01:33:55] But the pilots were recover the next morning, so
[01:33:59] But just shows you how quick it can happen
[01:34:03] As you're going in or you think and what are you thinking your chances are?
[01:34:09] You know
[01:34:11] my thoughts were
[01:34:13] Okay, the good Lord is with me and with us and
[01:34:19] We're gonna be all right, but I got to do my day and whatever it takes, you know
[01:34:24] One of my biggest fears was what I freeze you know having never been in combat
[01:34:31] You know, I mean I've heard of guys that've been in combat before freezing
[01:34:35] Even guys that've been in for a long time
[01:34:37] You know, but that was a concern of mine what I'd be able to but all the old timers kept coming up to him and said don't hesitate
[01:34:45] Don't have a safety whatever you do it on hesitate was there anyone else that had no combat experience
[01:34:51] So there was four of us had never been in combat before
[01:34:54] hell and how many out of 56 four of us
[01:35:00] Never been in combat so it was that I hope any experience and
[01:35:05] They entered or told me in one time afterwards
[01:35:09] He's just he's all more combat not saw in a year and
[01:35:14] Is it really? Oh, yeah
[01:35:16] so
[01:35:20] So here we go
[01:35:24] 0 to 20 Saturday November 21st 1970
[01:35:29] When we were just about to land I heard through the chatter in my headset the voice of Sergeant first class how
[01:35:36] Came through he was the RTO for Lieutenant Colonel Sidner the ground force commander for the raid
[01:35:43] Alternate planned green. I repeat alternate planned green do you copy?
[01:35:49] This was only the first of the bad news I would hear tonight
[01:35:54] I responded say again
[01:35:56] Sergeant first class how alternate planned green alternate planned green over
[01:36:02] I said back into my hand mic Roger alternate planned green over
[01:36:08] I thought to myself holy crap this can't be real
[01:36:11] I turned to Captain Dan and told him we were going to alternate planned green captain Dan gave me that oh shit look
[01:36:17] And calmly told me to pass the announcement onto others in red wine
[01:36:21] alternate planned green meant one thing to all of us on the red wine chopper
[01:36:27] We knew that we had 22 fewer men there would be a lot less fire powers we hit the ground
[01:36:32] Whether green leaf group had mechanical problems or had been shot down we knew the mission
[01:36:36] Including the alternate plans with that with or without the 22 men of green leaf group
[01:36:41] We were going to execute the mission and would now have to perform their role as well as ours
[01:36:47] So what had happened here and again you go into these details in the book
[01:36:50] But green leaf this one other chopper had landed in the wrong spot
[01:36:58] There was a school yard that was
[01:37:01] 400 yards to the south and it looked kind of like the POW camp like a little school compound right and that's where they landed
[01:37:11] The Colonel Colonel Bull Simon was with them yes
[01:37:14] So you get this call that hey we're going we're still going there in the wrong spot
[01:37:20] But we're still going you still need to execute the mission and this is where you have life less number six
[01:37:25] Don't be indispensable
[01:37:27] Always be training a backup person for your job and always be learning to be a backup for your teammates
[01:37:32] This applies to any job in life the graveyards are full of indispensable men
[01:37:37] But yeah, that's a sketchy situation
[01:37:43] I don't think I won third the troops and as this is happening
[01:37:47] I'm going back to the book at that moment the minigun and the door to our right fired off a few hundred rounds for those
[01:37:53] You not familiar the minigun. It's a gun that fires 4,000 rounds of ammo permitted at his been
[01:37:59] It is electronically driven rotary breach to feed the ammo belt at lightning speed
[01:38:04] Now my heart was already pounding, but the sound of that minigun firing two feet for me really took me to a new level
[01:38:10] I just my headset on the prick 25 on my back and feel for my ammo pound pouches
[01:38:15] I check for frags in my concussion grenades
[01:38:17] I place my finger on the safety and make sure I have the safety off and my car 15 is set on auto
[01:38:23] I make sure to have the 30 round magazine well seated and I chamber around in training
[01:38:29] I've done this a hundred times
[01:38:30] But this is it
[01:38:32] My first time in combat. This is no game. I'm not as scared as much as I am excited
[01:38:37] This is the moment I have trained for the reason I joined the green berets
[01:38:40] I don't I can't let Captain Dan down or the other raiders as the RTO for the red wine security group
[01:38:48] My job is to stay close to Captain Dan
[01:38:50] He's the commander of red wine and I am expected to protect his backside
[01:38:54] The tailgate is lowered the choppers feathering to the ground
[01:38:58] We are about to touch down on the enemies home land and there's no rescuing us
[01:39:02] If there has been a security breach. I feel the chopper settle as it is done so many times in training
[01:39:07] Red wine group is unloading exactly as we have practiced over 170 times
[01:39:12] The major difference is that this time the bullets are flying in both directions
[01:39:17] It is amazing how fast you can exit a chopper
[01:39:20] Captain Dan and I start off the tail of the chapter the last two men off. I am literally one step to his right side as we run
[01:39:27] Our boots have just started splashing the rice patties with a North Vietnamese army soldier fires at us from the very building
[01:39:33] We were to clear a couple of bullets zip by us a natural reaction. I placed the green dot from my
[01:39:40] Armolite single point site on the guards chest and fire three rounds
[01:39:43] He immediately falls to the ground and that instant I don't hesitate what the season warriors taught me really paid off
[01:39:50] Don't hesitate
[01:39:52] I imagine most of the warriors
[01:39:54] In your first time downrange wondering the back of your mind how you responded that moment what I freeze when I faced with the
[01:40:02] Decision to kill or be killed I had only just stepped on to the enemies ground and I had my first kill
[01:40:08] There'd be more to come as we cleared the buildings
[01:40:14] Out of the gate
[01:40:16] You know, I watch a lot of
[01:40:19] Fighting and they always talk about you know
[01:40:22] Who's got the fastest record knockout in a fight?
[01:40:27] You might have the fastest kill on enemy territory that you step off for your immediately engaging your guy
[01:40:33] That's kind of crazy to think about
[01:40:41] You go on captain Dan thanks me as we charge towards our first building
[01:40:45] I am following captain Dan with bullets blazing and men moving to their positions alternate playing green is proceeding
[01:40:51] We hear our chopper apple to loudly lift off the rice patties to wait about a mile away until they're called back in to take us home with the POWs
[01:40:59] We came to free and the back of our minds if these birds get battled damage it will be a long way back to friendly lines
[01:41:06] No time to think about that
[01:41:08] We move forward to clear our designated buildings nearest nearest to us
[01:41:13] Master Sergeant Joe Lupiak and his red wine element two which includes him
[01:41:18] Sergeant first class tyrone Adderley and Sergeant first class Billy Martin each of us knew this was going to be much more difficult than it was during training
[01:41:26] These are buildings that green leaf group would have neutralized according to the original plan and they would have had
[01:41:32] 14 of their men on this task
[01:41:35] Under alternate planned green
[01:41:37] Five of our team were now going to have to do it
[01:41:40] They also had more firepower
[01:41:42] Sergeant first class Jake Jack Avanko was carrying an M60 by pod machine gun which we don't have on our team
[01:41:50] What we did still have was the L on a surprise bull Simon's told us if there was security leak
[01:41:55] We would know it by the time the second chopper landed
[01:41:59] We turned out to be that second chopper and we are operating like a well-oiled machine
[01:42:04] Captain Dan is redirecting our red wine group comprised of four elements and it is made and is making sure
[01:42:11] We are getting the job done
[01:42:14] As as a virgin to combat and as Captain Dan's RTO I stay close to him
[01:42:19] You have to respect and trust the men with whom you go to battle. This is where the months of training play pay off
[01:42:26] We know what we have to do next alternate plan green means that the bridge north of the POW camp will remain
[01:42:32] Open to enemy reinforcements crossing it since we didn't have enough raiders to send someone to blow it
[01:42:37] Over the radio is lieutenant Colonel Sidner directs the A1E
[01:42:42] Skyrader pilots to light it up with rock eye missiles if anyone tries to cross at the A1s will open up with 20 millimeter cannon
[01:42:49] Those fly boys are cocky but damn they're good at their job
[01:42:54] What amazes me is that in all this chaos the only one of the only one green beret gets wounded
[01:43:01] That is sergeant first class Joe Murray Joe is a member of master sergeant Herman Spencer's team
[01:43:09] Whose job is it is to secure the area south of the south wall?
[01:43:14] That's the wall closest to where the helicopter's drops dropped us off and we later pick us up
[01:43:20] Master sergeant Spencer's carrying a 40 pound block of sea four explosives slung over his shoulder
[01:43:25] It is to be used to blow the bridge
[01:43:27] It turned out to be a good shield for him as we landed and spilled out of our helicopters
[01:43:33] Spencer and Murray immediately rushed towards their objective the guard shack by the south wall
[01:43:37] Spencer took a couple rounds from a guard with an AK 47 in the block of sea four he was carrying
[01:43:45] Joe Murray would not be that lucky and that's something that surprises people is that
[01:43:49] C4 is relatively stable
[01:43:51] When it's when it's by itself
[01:43:53] Right that's where you have blasting caps or detonation cord because those things will blow up and then they make the sea four blow up
[01:44:01] But but C4 by itself is relatively stable
[01:44:05] yeah
[01:44:08] Back to the book when Spencer was dealing with that guard that delayed Spencer just such that Joe arrives at the guard shack alone
[01:44:16] The building needs to be cleared immediately before the enemy troops inside can all emerge
[01:44:20] So Joe decides to use a frag grenade instead of a concussion grenade as he is about to toss in the window
[01:44:25] He feels his leg push forward with a burning sensation
[01:44:29] Joe tosses the frag grenade in neutralizing the guard shack
[01:44:32] He then turns to eliminate the threat Spencer now arriving fires his machine gun
[01:44:37] First and eliminates three guards
[01:44:40] Joe is the only army raider to receive a purple heart
[01:44:46] That's crazy
[01:44:48] And there's like is there just a massive amount of gun fire at this point?
[01:44:53] Yeah, yeah, it's
[01:44:56] Everybody's letting loose with everything and we got you know and you have one guy get hit in the leg
[01:45:02] Yeah
[01:45:04] Back to the leg
[01:45:08] Going on for Captain Dan and me the objective is to get to the communication buildings as fast as possible to prevent that from calling for reinforcements
[01:45:15] It's a good 50 meters ahead of us and it's an open area with no cover
[01:45:20] We have two buildings to clear before we clear the communications building
[01:45:23] We were told that we would not take any North Vietnamese army prisoners and neutralize everyone
[01:45:29] We will be coming back through the same area and bulldoze it won't anyone preventing us from getting back to the choppers
[01:45:34] To do this we have to ensure that there is no one alive to ambush us on our way back
[01:45:40] Captain Dan and our getting closer to the communications building
[01:45:43] We can see the main guard houses on fire and people are running away from us
[01:45:47] Clearing the main guard house was the job of another red wine element and they apparently are succeeding
[01:45:53] We still have two more buildings to clear the first one is empty the second one has a few North Vietnamese army soldiers
[01:45:59] I toss a concussion grenade into the room and as soon as it explodes
[01:46:03] Captain Dan drops the floor and I stand in the door straddling him we create a crossfire with me firing fully
[01:46:09] Automatic from right to left and he from left to right
[01:46:12] He yells clear and I back out and shine my flashlight so he can confirm we've neutralized everyone
[01:46:17] Because there are a number of them we do a closer check that they are all neutralized
[01:46:23] In the clearing of the buildings at Sante, Captain Dan and I are the only two man team depending on how close you are to the grenade when it explodes
[01:46:30] It can bust your ear drums and pretty well mess you up and building 12 as I'm confirming everyone is dead
[01:46:35] It's a grim task whatever you're thinking right now
[01:46:38] It is far more grim than that a guard raises his weapon behind me
[01:46:42] Captain Dan neutralizes him. There is no doubt with that decisive action
[01:46:47] Captain Dan saved my life
[01:46:53] So you're sitting you're going through the buildings are you just doing security rounds in these guys
[01:46:58] And then one of them that you haven't gotten to yet
[01:47:02] We just you know we just put a bullet nearby said
[01:47:05] Mm-hmm, I'm making sure and while you're doing that one of those guys that you hadn't gotten to yet
[01:47:12] Decides he's gonna take a shot at you and Captain Dan sees him and kills him. Yeah, I had my back toy
[01:47:18] What he did
[01:47:20] Dan fire scare me
[01:47:23] I thought somebody was shooting you know, but it was it was Dan shooting all right, but
[01:47:28] I'm shooting the guy that that was gonna take me out so I
[01:47:35] Approaching 0228 lieutenant Colonel Sidner received notification that green leaf group is not out a commission
[01:47:41] We can hear apple one landing and are told the hold fast until green leaf elements get to their original plan positions
[01:47:47] With 22 men of green leaf team including bullseimants
[01:47:50] We are back on track within one minute green leaf has secured the guard quarters per the plan and takes over their rules that the red wine team members
[01:47:59] Have been handling for them
[01:48:01] Again, that's a comp that seems real easy
[01:48:04] But when you got all the shooting going on and now you got friendly's moving into positions where there's other friendlies and you got
[01:48:10] Enemy shooting at you that this is a sketchy thing it was very intense
[01:48:15] Right there and we were kind of away from it because we were we were going to the communication building and over here was
[01:48:22] Where they were coming from of course, you know
[01:48:27] Adon they was he had I am 79 grade launcher, so he was booping them right in the windows and
[01:48:34] You know, oh Kentucky Wendy's work real well
[01:48:37] In fact Tyrone is getting the bullseimants award for socom. Oh, I'll stay in the outstand now. So well deserved. Yeah, that's outstanding
[01:48:52] You go on here at 0229 we had just reached the communication buildings when I heard on my head set
[01:48:59] Negative items
[01:49:01] I told Captain Dan he asked me are you sure?
[01:49:04] I dooms was the code word for POWs
[01:49:09] It didn't make any sense the next radio call I heard was at 0 230 begin extraction to choppers
[01:49:16] We entered the communication buildings without tossing a grenade. It was empty
[01:49:20] At this time we started to move back to the LZ for extraction
[01:49:23] We still moved with these assumption that there could be more enemy soldiers lying in the bushes
[01:49:28] While the helicopters were and route were returning to extract us
[01:49:32] One of red wines rolls was to clear the planned LZ by cutting down certain light poles that task revealed one frustrating
[01:49:40] Surprise we had brought a chainsaw to cut down certain wooden telephone poles
[01:49:45] But sergeant first class Charles, Maston and sergeant first class Ronnie straight hand were to blow up a tall concrete light pole
[01:49:54] The moment that Maston and Strahan finished placing the four one pound packets of c4 explosive
[01:49:59] We're ready to blow and we're conforming confirming that they should activate the fuse apple one was arriving
[01:50:06] They waited until apple one had landed offloaded green leaf and departed
[01:50:11] Ensured of safety they detonated the c4 as the pole rose into the air a huge flash of light
[01:50:16] Maston and Strahan could
[01:50:18] See that this was not a light pole it had four large high tension power lines
[01:50:23] Dancing sparks were everywhere as the four huge power lines hit the rice patties the very rice patties
[01:50:30] And which our soldiers and POWs would be marching to load the returning chalpers
[01:50:35] We were going to have to find a new location where are we going to have to find a new location for the LZ
[01:50:40] Maston, Strahan and Captain Jim McClam as the marshalling area control officer immediately set about ensuring
[01:50:47] They understood the location of all the wines and whether they were hot
[01:50:50] After assessing the situation and ensuring there were no other potential hazards they began placing the bean bag lights in an area
[01:51:00] suitably distant from the power lines
[01:51:05] As everyone returned to the LZ waiting for the helicopters we had a few minutes to gather people and equipment to load on apple one and apple two
[01:51:14] You just not go into your life lessons in here
[01:51:21] Don't be a complainer the world is moving on and needs people to solve problems
[01:51:26] A value at your situation make a decision and execute any new plan without complaining and feels or for yourself
[01:51:34] Not gonna help
[01:51:36] Not gonna help the situation. You gotta make things happen. Exactly
[01:51:39] No POWs was not something we had spent time thinking about
[01:51:48] I could hear chatter on my headset. I heard the RTO for bull say that bull was coming into the compound
[01:51:54] Bull had to verify with his own eyes that there were no POWs
[01:51:59] A 0 237 apple one landed facing east toward Hanoi and loaded red wine group in blue boy group
[01:52:05] Captain band and I were the last ones to board the two of us sat in the tail of the chopper loading the door fully
[01:52:12] Down and open with a mini gun mounted right between us manned by an air force PJ
[01:52:17] as 0 240 we lifted off and turned west looking out of the tail
[01:52:22] We had a front row seat with a bird's eye view of Hanoi. I will never forget that view
[01:52:28] I couldn't believe how big Hanoi was and how close we were to it
[01:52:31] It looked like any major city in America
[01:52:34] We were only about 20 miles from the capital of North Vietnam
[01:52:39] Never before had the Vietnam War Vietnamese army been violated like this
[01:52:43] That's when it really hit me what we had just done
[01:52:48] We were rising only a minute or two after lift off suddenly our chopper took a hard dive to the left
[01:52:55] What looked like a telephone pole with a bright red fireball shot bias? I yelled over the captain Dan what the hell is that?
[01:53:02] Before he could answer the gun or standing between us yelled that it was a surface to air missile a Sam
[01:53:09] Now I was scared while it was on the ground, but now it was really scared
[01:53:13] And this is what you were talking about before on the ground. I have a fighting chance
[01:53:17] But being in a chopper at 600 feet you feel like a sitting duck
[01:53:20] Thank God for some of the best pilots we could have these guys knew how to handle it
[01:53:24] We were soon out from the threat into the dark jungle mountains and headed for you, Dorn
[01:53:33] During the next three hours on the flight back to base I had plenty of time to replay what we had done that night
[01:53:36] Like the rest of the raiders I was very disappointed that we came home with no POWs
[01:53:41] I kept thinking what went wrong why when when had the POWs been moved
[01:53:47] That flight returning to you doing seemed a lot longer than the flight to Sante
[01:53:51] We've been so pumped up about our mission to find no POWs was the last thing that would have ever crossed our mind beyond the two wounds received
[01:54:01] US Air Force tech sergeant Lee were right ankle was broken during one of the crash landings and
[01:54:07] Surgeon first class Joe Maria America's only casualty
[01:54:11] Our night that night was our morale
[01:54:14] And that's something again you covered these details in the book, but one of the one of the
[01:54:21] aircraft actually crash landed on purpose into the combat right
[01:54:27] Blueway yeah, and the reason for that was the people making the planning
[01:54:35] Initially they thought we'd drop in a C 130
[01:54:40] But they didn't know if the guards had orders to shoot the field devias if there was an rescue attempt or
[01:54:50] Exactly what so they they planned on having control of the guards
[01:54:56] Within 60 seconds a minute. I gave us a minute to have
[01:55:00] Complete control of the guards inside the compound and I'm taking out to two guard towers and the third one up by blueway and then control into guards and being in there
[01:55:13] And that's what we did
[01:55:16] I mean they did a they did a great job on there and it's just that there was no POWs in there and then
[01:55:24] You know people say well, while were their guards and
[01:55:26] You know we don't know if they were why they're regards, but they were still in the
[01:55:33] towers when we
[01:55:36] We I say we they red
[01:55:39] Green our blue boy took care of them
[01:55:42] So our job was outside
[01:55:46] We were really
[01:55:48] Teams red wine green leaf and blue boy all had specific
[01:55:52] Task to accomplish and that's what we did we worked on our task to get that done and if everybody did their task
[01:56:00] Like we had practiced and rehearsed so many times it would be a great success and it was the success from the standpoint
[01:56:09] Doing the job of eliminating the threat and
[01:56:13] Controlling the POW camp and the guards
[01:56:18] We just didn't anticipate the POWs not being there
[01:56:21] And that was the the heartbreaking part of it
[01:56:28] You say this to say we were disappointed would be an understate understatement some of us talked about it
[01:56:34] How maybe we should have gone into Hanoi we were thinking crazy thoughts like that that's how confident we were when we got some rest at you doing for a couple hours
[01:56:42] We flew a C130
[01:56:45] And we were briefed again in the auditorium what to say and more importantly what not to talk about we packed our
[01:56:50] Duffel bag secured our equipment and had a few hours to relax the C141 that we boarded it was
[01:56:56] One that had been prep for MetaVac ready to bring POWs home
[01:57:01] Now its mission was just to bring us to Elgit at Eglon
[01:57:06] All the after action reports were finalized to exal exal auxiliary field number three and we spent two days before heading home to North Carolina on C123
[01:57:15] So that's it you do like a debrief you fill out your paperwork explaining what exactly you did
[01:57:25] And then you wrap up you're you know at the training site we had spent all this time preparing for the mission
[01:57:31] And then you say this landing at Pope Air Force Base North Carolina a couple days later was a very happy time
[01:57:38] It is happy for the Raiders and for all the people awaiting us families friends and the army support personnel
[01:57:43] There to process us back to our normal world at Fort Bragg in fact for me personally
[01:57:48] That is the most memorable moment
[01:57:50] It was not the training or the day or of the launch or the landing at Sonte for me
[01:57:56] It was the landing at Pope Air Force Base. I will never forget what I witnessed that day
[01:58:01] I was a single guy so a couple of my buddies came to pick me up
[01:58:04] But standing there on the flight line when I looked around and at the men unloading from the airplane
[01:58:09] I saw their wives and children's running out to meet them. It really hit me
[01:58:14] The bull had warned us that we had a 50 50 chance of not coming home a 50 50 chance of this moment never happening
[01:58:23] If there had been a security breach it was unlikely that we could have been rescued
[01:58:27] These warriors had laid their lives on the line to rescue fellow warriors
[01:58:42] Four days after the raid on Wednesday November 25th, 1970 President Nixon honored the Sonte Raiders by having
[01:58:49] Raider representatives in a televised ceremony in the White House's east room
[01:58:54] That had to be pretty
[01:58:57] It's pretty cool pretty crazy. It's so is on the news and everyone now
[01:59:02] He almost immediately knew what it happened right and the only reason for that was the fact that hand-o-ai had come on and said they had been bombed
[01:59:13] And
[01:59:14] What they had been
[01:59:16] Not bombed but they had
[01:59:18] Fliers dropped out over the city and
[01:59:21] And that was the diversion process and so the United States had to come on and say no we didn't bomb them
[01:59:30] We did a POW raid and these were aircraft that were dropping flares to
[01:59:38] Offset the Sonte Raiders coming in on the backside
[01:59:42] So it was kind of a political but you know
[01:59:45] The justify what we had done and the fact that the attempt was made to free POWs
[01:59:54] Which was went a long way and that arena back then
[01:59:59] This is how how would you say this level of
[02:00:04] Media attention compared to the bin Laden raid?
[02:00:07] Hmm, I mean the thing about the bin Laden raid was we were the
[02:00:15] The war wasn't intense as intense at that point as Vietnam was I mean Vietnam was right full-on
[02:00:21] So it would have gotten a little bit
[02:00:24] Less attention. I mean the bin Laden raid was
[02:00:27] Compared about his about his big of a new story as there's ever been I think yeah, yeah, that's true and
[02:00:33] You know the good thing if you look at the bin Laden raid compared to the Sonte Raid
[02:00:42] They were they copied what the Sonte Raiders about and that's the
[02:00:49] Good part about the Sonte Raiders the impact it's had over the years
[02:00:56] On all the raids that have been done since then have been modeled after the Sonte Raid because
[02:01:02] Not because the
[02:01:04] Success it had I've getting in and getting out
[02:01:07] But the way the the way they planned it and all the information that went into that and how they
[02:01:16] How they planned it made an impact on the success of it. Yeah, I mean
[02:01:21] I know I know you know Adam when we're graven he wrote
[02:01:25] It was sort of like his feces when he was at the post graduate school about all the
[02:01:31] Most important special operations missions in history right and he wrote about the Sonte Raid
[02:01:38] And then he was also like one of the guys is he one of the
[02:01:41] Senior guys conducting the planning for the bin Laden raid so yeah, there's a direct
[02:01:46] Connection between the lessons learned and the and the protocol that you use to to get this done and yeah, no doubt about that. It's a
[02:01:55] Pretty interesting to see the truth to see this thread in history and yeah, it is I mean and today the Sonte Raid is taught at all the military schools and
[02:02:07] You know so come in fact
[02:02:10] They're making a movie on this and
[02:02:13] Is so come making the movie or is like Hollywood making the movie? It's a a group of people that are doing a doctor or men
[02:02:22] Right, okay, but the seventh special forces is going to
[02:02:28] My understanding is they're gonna participate in having the Sonte Raid as a training film for
[02:02:34] Future because what they've done they've interviewed a lot of the people on the raid and they've interviewed
[02:02:41] The Peel dubias and they've kind of combined it all together in fact
[02:02:45] Next in May I'm going down to do the screening on it at socom and I'm going down to see the screening and make sure
[02:02:56] We always told anybody that's gonna do this we want we want it to be authentic we don't want Hollywood
[02:03:03] so
[02:03:04] last year I went out to Phoenix and did a
[02:03:08] Group the group is building this
[02:03:10] Movie on it and they actually built the compound and they used they had one of us from each group
[02:03:19] Redmigree and they from blue boy and then an navigation
[02:03:22] John Gargas Colonel Gargas who was Air Force the navigator that took us in and
[02:03:29] They made all of the
[02:03:32] They wanted to know how we cleared a building
[02:03:34] They wanted to know all that stuff and it's home the ball you know it's home the hand grenades
[02:03:41] And all that stuff and they did a really good
[02:03:44] You have done a really good job on it and they're they're shopping and I think to Netflix and everything right now
[02:03:51] But they're very close to having it completed but they've really done a nice job of making it
[02:03:58] Authentic as to what actually took place and how it happened
[02:04:01] So they're a good training film definitely yeah, that'll be awesome to see
[02:04:09] You see here
[02:04:11] I remember being told to report to the repeat parade field in my dress greens
[02:04:15] This is December 9th
[02:04:16] 1970 for an award ceremony. It was a nice sunny cool day when secretary defense Melvin layered personally presented the medals to the members of the sauntay raid
[02:04:25] There I stood spit shine jump boots jump wings expert rifle badge and the seventh special forces group risen ribbon
[02:04:33] Brigadier general Henry Emerson the commander of special forces at for brag thank the raiders for their courage and dedication
[02:04:41] We had reflected well on the green berets
[02:04:46] And then you all were awarded it was I think six distinguished service crosses
[02:04:51] Five air force crosses were awarded there was a total of 85 silver stars which included all of the raiders right
[02:05:03] And the following comments were made by secretary defense
[02:05:10] Melvin layered he said this
[02:05:14] We are here to honor the brave the brave and dedicated men we confer on them today awards that
[02:05:20] Express their gratitude their countries gratitude and admiration the mission for which these men volunteered called for
[02:05:28] Undaunted courage and deep compassion
[02:05:31] They were asked to go deep into enemy territory to search for and if possible to rescue their comrades and arms
[02:05:38] Who are prisoners of war
[02:05:41] They performed their mission flawlessly from the outset the president the nation's top military leadership and I
[02:05:47] gave total and unqualified support to this mission
[02:05:51] I knew as these men did how grave were the risks they willingly undertook
[02:05:59] I knew as these men did that there was a chance of disappointment and even of failure
[02:06:06] But the reasonable chance to return to freedom Americans held captive made this mission well worth the risk
[02:06:12] If a similar chance to save Americans were to arise tomorrow I would act
[02:06:19] Just as I did in approving and supporting the effort at song day
[02:06:34] Man that's not too often the secretary that shows up at your command to start handed out 85 silver stars
[02:06:40] Yeah, you do
[02:06:43] After that I'm going to the book you say they gave each of us 30 days of leave untarged against our balance
[02:06:49] We got 30 days of free leave. That's nice. So I went home for a whole month of December
[02:06:53] Back home in Missouri we talked about a little about the mission
[02:06:56] But not too much. It's funny how some people don't understand the significance of a combat raid
[02:07:01] I wasn't going to try and impress upon them most of my friends had not gone into the military
[02:07:06] So I didn't have any significant conversations with them about the raid someone got married and we're busy with their own lives
[02:07:12] My dad was a good listener for me. He expressed his pride and after a few beers at the east sign
[02:07:17] Tavern on in moberly he even told me some of his friends
[02:07:22] Even told some of his friends what I had done
[02:07:24] But to tell you the truth after about four or five days
[02:07:27] I was ready to head back to brag and my army buddies
[02:07:30] And you got life less than eight here
[02:07:36] It says veterans we all have a mission listen to your fellow veterans it is important for the veteran
[02:07:41] But it's also important for the listener it is important for America good stories and bad
[02:07:46] They need to be told please take my request to heart and talk with a veteran and
[02:07:52] That's one thing that you have in this book
[02:07:54] You've got a whole it's over 140 pages of this book is all the different perspective
[02:08:01] We've just told you're perspective and it's very interesting to hear your perspective as the youngest guy on the raid
[02:08:06] Somebody with no combat experience
[02:08:09] But you have the perspective of a bunch of different people not just the raiders but the support people
[02:08:16] The aircraft the pilots the crew you've got incredible amount of stories to be told that are told in this book
[02:08:23] That every one of them gives a different angle of the story. It's and now that came about when I started writing my I started writing the book in 2012
[02:08:32] My daughter went to Afghanistan at time and she was asking you know what all do you do and I thought
[02:08:39] I'm an ent talking man. There's been several books on the raid
[02:08:43] But none by anybody that was on the ground so
[02:08:47] That's guy. What prompted me to do it so
[02:08:51] But the
[02:08:53] The thing that I got out of that was in the process. I realized that I wanted more than my opinion
[02:09:02] So I we have an email chain that we go out on so I send an email out to all the P.O. Davies and the Raiders and the support guys
[02:09:12] If you have
[02:09:14] Something that you would like to put in the book, you know
[02:09:17] Send it to me. I'll put it in unedited into the book and I got about 40 of them and
[02:09:25] Some are one paragraph summer three or four five pages, you know, but it's their memorable moment on the raid
[02:09:33] Or about the rate or whatever might be and you know, it just gives a whole different perspective, you know from a P.O. W. standpoint
[02:09:41] to a guy flying at you know
[02:09:43] Mid midcap overs and it really I think rounded out the book. Yeah, it's not gonna read it today
[02:09:52] Get the book but the story about the guys the got hit with a
[02:09:56] Frag from the surface to air missile and ended up punching out just here in that story with him talking about you know
[02:10:02] They're just having a conversation like what about to what about to eject from an aircraft which by the way is
[02:10:08] A life and death thing this yeah when you when you eject from an aircraft there's I don't know what the chances that you're gonna die
[02:10:15] But there's definitely a strong chance that you're
[02:10:19] You know ejecting through the canopy going 400 miles an hour or whatever it is
[02:10:24] I was dead. Lowery. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. There's a decent chance you're gonna die just from that and then you're gonna land in wherever
[02:10:30] Vietnom louse the ocean you don't know what the hell's gonna happen
[02:10:33] And these guys are talking about it like they think you up there
[02:10:36] We're gonna have to punch out. Yeah, okay. Well, let let me know when you're ready
[02:10:38] They're doing it like this yeah, I'm freaking calm cool and collected
[02:10:44] Really a great guy to
[02:10:47] Get the meeting man and then and then of course they end up having to get picked up
[02:10:52] Yeah, the next day they spend the night it's like a little after father the book
[02:10:56] But it's it's its own story in itself so you're taking your own advice on life less late and getting these other stories out there
[02:11:03] Um
[02:11:05] So check that check to get the book for that stuff as well
[02:11:09] You say your life goes on the next week. I was back at D company 7 special forces group at Fort Bragg
[02:11:15] That's it back to back to normal life
[02:11:19] you end up
[02:11:21] You end up
[02:11:22] Getting involved in the sport of orientering which is like math and compass while you're running
[02:11:26] Yeah, basically the next year you spend time doing this orientering so like as the as part of the team of 7 special forces group
[02:11:37] Um
[02:11:39] You say by December of 1971 our team had represented special forces in several orientering meats
[02:11:44] I finished 15th in the US military championship 7th in the US championship 45th in the Canadian championship
[02:11:51] So you go through that and then
[02:11:53] You say when I heard in December 1971 that the army was offering early outs that really appealed to me
[02:12:00] I felt ready to do my own thing and not to be told what to do all the time
[02:12:04] I took advantage of the opportunity separating January 5th
[02:12:07] 1972
[02:12:08] Start it back at junior college January 7th back home
[02:12:13] So how long was your total service? Well, I was active three years
[02:12:17] And I was in reserve for four I stayed in okay so we you are we you are actually doing reserve duty on the weekends and whatnot
[02:12:27] I was making money to go to college
[02:12:32] So you go to school what's your studying school? Business
[02:12:38] Aged their Martin independent study of business and then you graduate and you're not you know it's 1974
[02:12:45] You're having a little trouble finding a job, but oh yeah
[02:12:50] But uh, at one of the sauntay raiders
[02:12:53] reunions you you
[02:12:56] Get connected with Ross Peroff. Yes, he he he had the reunion
[02:13:02] 1974 I guess well all the POW debbies and the raiders at San Francisco and
[02:13:08] And we had an afternoon he brought all the raiders in the POWs together and he said you know if there's any
[02:13:16] thing I've never knew for any of you let me know
[02:13:19] And as a result of that I thought you know
[02:13:24] A medical and I don't have a job, but I need help, you know, so I wrote a letter to Ross Peroff and
[02:13:30] I got a response back that they flew me down for a new interview and
[02:13:34] I was hired work read yes
[02:13:38] And
[02:13:40] He kept his word
[02:13:42] That's pretty amazing and then how long did you do how long to work for a EDS? I work for EDS for about three years and then you end up with another job
[02:13:49] And what was the next job you got? I went the from there to selling computer furniture and
[02:13:55] We're for a company called right line. I work for them for about five years and then I was hired away from that company by
[02:14:05] Greg Kales who was my old boss at that time there and
[02:14:10] selling you'd add a micro graphics and
[02:14:13] He sold the business and I decided to start my own so
[02:14:18] I went into my own business of
[02:14:21] Document imaging and document imaging
[02:14:23] Where we scan documents and store
[02:14:26] Digitism and is that still running today? Yes, what's it called Delta systems Delta systems?
[02:14:34] That's a new Delta for just happens to mean
[02:14:38] name in the company or in Kansas City and
[02:14:42] Wait and you're doing that in the late 80s you were doing that
[02:14:46] Hmm, I jumped started because that's everything is digital now. Yeah, and amazing how much is still being printed out today?
[02:14:55] Crazy
[02:14:56] And that's still running right now Delta systems. How big is the company?
[02:15:02] Well, there's only about five of us so we're small company, but we we do a lot of work
[02:15:07] We're in probably now maybe 1520 30 states and
[02:15:13] And we have resellers this other product and then we do a lot in the healthcare
[02:15:21] Medical but you name an end-ass ringer probably have a system installed in it so
[02:15:29] What is government or
[02:15:33] We just you're out there anybody's got favorite money get rid of it we can help
[02:15:38] And you you know you mentioned earlier your wife Marsha
[02:15:47] When did you meet her I'm in and what was that what was the arc the story arc there?
[02:15:54] We were at the time I was a member of the beta processing management association in Kansas City
[02:16:01] and we I was on the border directors for that and we were
[02:16:06] Down at a bar after a board meeting one night and
[02:16:11] Marsha and her girlfriend walked in the place was packed and
[02:16:15] Couple of the guys that were on the board happened to get up and leave just as they walked in so we had to open seats
[02:16:20] And we said come sit down here with us and they did and
[02:16:25] So I met Marsha that was in September
[02:16:29] Let's see that would have been
[02:16:31] 84
[02:16:37] And so we end up getting married and
[02:16:42] She had a little boy Aaron who is down in Texas and my daughter which you met here and honey and
[02:16:52] So we we got married in
[02:16:56] October
[02:16:57] 20th of
[02:16:58] 1984 and
[02:17:00] I started the business 1989
[02:17:05] There was a
[02:17:07] What was there some story about scuba diving in here? Do you guys get married under water or something or engaged under water?
[02:17:13] What was the story? We were in Kansas
[02:17:15] I had a we were in Hawaii and place called witches brew which is in front of Namabay
[02:17:21] on the island of Oahu and
[02:17:24] I have a friend over there that was a dental hygienic and she had some that red dental floss
[02:17:32] So I wrapped the ring and that
[02:17:34] I did it on it put it in a little murmur and had a 35 millimeter
[02:17:38] Tarratases put that down on my web suit
[02:17:41] We don't swim out the the place called witches brewed and we went down about 30 feet under and I stopped her and I said
[02:17:48] I pulled out on a dangled it
[02:17:50] Of course everything three times bigger one
[02:17:54] She thought she was in a little rarer
[02:17:58] Or said
[02:18:00] Melty when we got on the surface
[02:18:03] She went from 1.5 kms to 0.5
[02:18:08] Exactly
[02:18:10] But then you had a so you had a son
[02:18:13] Aaron and then your daughter
[02:18:15] She ended up joining the army. Yes, she was a so you got third generation army
[02:18:21] That's true and she actually shipped off to Afghanistan at one point correct right she was a chemical officer
[02:18:29] And how hard was that for you?
[02:18:31] have this tough
[02:18:32] I know it's tough on her and it's tough on me, you know, I just you know
[02:18:37] It's it's one thing you know when you when you go but it's when your daughter goes
[02:18:42] You got a lot of other thoughts going through the mind and now she's very strong woman
[02:18:50] She was with a college at Warrensburg and she was the first ROTC
[02:18:57] Famiel come the Italian commander
[02:18:59] She was the first female to go to jump school from there and the first one to go to Afghanistan
[02:19:07] And now she's a deputy sheriff on johnson canny Kansas and
[02:19:11] She's a loves of job. Must be the daughter of a son, too, Raider
[02:19:20] Got a daughter of slay, I guess you know
[02:19:24] Other always worried about her but I tried not to show my concerns
[02:19:30] But it was when your daughter's in her's way you got to be a little
[02:19:34] Crazy I worry when my daughter's one of my daughters goes to the grocery store right where I came to the
[02:19:42] Magister go to Afghanistan, God bless you and you know that's the the last life lesson that you have in the book
[02:19:52] You say life lesson nine sacrificial living
[02:19:55] That scene as we arrived at Pope Air Force Base back in November 1970 really made an impression on me
[02:20:02] It's not only the soldiers but also their wives who are heroes these families are the type of people our world needs
[02:20:11] People who know this life is not just about their own convenience
[02:20:16] I am thankful for what these families and also
[02:20:20] Those of first responders in civilian life do for our country and for freedom around the world
[02:20:27] That's your
[02:20:29] That's sort of your your final life lesson there and like I said the stories in the book
[02:20:36] We only covered a fraction of the book today, but it's packed full of more information the
[02:20:43] just it's
[02:20:46] Very powerful
[02:20:48] And
[02:20:50] One thing I wanted to cover which we we haven't really touched on yet which is the impact of the raid
[02:20:55] Right because clearly go on this operation the operation is to rescue
[02:21:01] Peotab use and as we've covered there was no POWs there and it'd be easy to think well then that must be a failed mission
[02:21:10] But
[02:21:11] That couldn't be further from the truth the there was a huge impact for
[02:21:16] The POWs and and part of the section of the book where you have other people stories
[02:21:21] You have a bunch of commentary from
[02:21:23] Some of the people at were POWs and Vietnam and we've had some of these heroes on this podcast incredible human beings
[02:21:32] You have some I'm gonna just read some of these highlights
[02:21:35] US Air Force first lieutenant J H spike Nazmith POW from 1966 to 1973 says I was in a Hanoi
[02:21:44] Six and a half years
[02:21:46] After the raid the guards were clearly shaken by what they heard
[02:21:49] They were digging holes like mad it was a real show to watch at dawn the NVA were still running around
[02:21:55] You've heard of a Chinese fire drill. They're digging fox holes right outside our cell
[02:22:00] They've got machine guns set up all over the prison yard. They're digging in fox holes real deep. I can't believe all the freaking
[02:22:05] Foxholes first time I'd seen the little bastard to work up a sweat
[02:22:12] US Air Force first lieutenant Joe Kreka POW
[02:22:16] 1966 to 1973 on the night of November 21st
[02:22:19] 1970 hours a POW and camp faith a camp just about 10 miles south of sauntay and about the same distance west
[02:22:27] of Hanoi as sauntay
[02:22:29] It didn't come out until a few days later what had happened within 48 hours
[02:22:33] We were all packed up placed on the six by six trucks and ferried into Hanoi
[02:22:39] So this is an impact direct impact of the raid they started consolidating these prisoners
[02:22:43] Which is a massive morale boost he says whereas before we had been held in much smaller groups one two three four
[02:22:50] Or even eight or ten they were now 50 of us all together in a room of about 35 feet by 70 feet new faces
[02:22:58] new stories to tell and hear and putting faces of fellow Americans we only knew by main
[02:23:03] Language classes were taught in German because they they organized like a
[02:23:07] Educational system once they were together they had a just just they started being more productive
[02:23:14] Language classes were taught in German Spanish and even Russian math classes were divided into three levels appropriately
[02:23:20] xy and z
[02:23:22] We also had courses in history sociology politics religion wine selection
[02:23:26] Yes, we had a wine tasting class meat cutting and lumber selection
[02:23:30] And I taught of a course in physics automotive theory and practices well as one on classical music themes and composers
[02:23:40] He said we were still being held captive but since the raid on song tape prison camp by the in comparable
[02:23:46] Sontay Raiders life was so much better hats off to all the Raiders and those who supported the raid
[02:23:51] Air force navy Marines and all those at their support bases on land at sea bravo
[02:23:56] Another one captain a US Air Force captain Leon Lee Ellis
[02:24:04] Sontay POW camp from 1967 to 1973 the night of November 20th and 21st at camp faith
[02:24:11] We POWs were awakened in the middle of night hearing explosions aircraft
[02:24:15] Sams launching and several minutes of chaos we could not have guessed that our old camp at Sontay
[02:24:20] Just a few miles up the road was entertaining guests uninvited guests for sure
[02:24:24] The next morning we saw fear in the eyes of the guards and turn keys and within 48 hours
[02:24:30] We were loaded up and move back to Hanoi for the first time ever we were in large groups
[02:24:36] But we were not rescued by the raid in many ways our sanity and teamwork were saved by that event
[02:24:42] We will always be indebted to the Raiders for what they did for us
[02:24:47] US Navy Lieutenant Junior Grade Porter Halle Burton POW 1965 to 1973 at camp faith on November 21st
[02:24:56] We heard gunfire and jet noise from somewhere close by but had no idea what was happening
[02:25:00] The elation we felt knowing that our government had tried to rescue us was the most powerful
[02:25:06] More morale booster imaginable
[02:25:08] We were especially thankful to the guys of the Sontay Raiders who had volunteered for this mission and risked their lives to try and rescue us
[02:25:18] Another one US Navy Commander Paul Galante
[02:25:21] Sontay POW camp
[02:25:24] He said the Sontay raid itself was the most memorable moment of my captivity
[02:25:30] We knew Uncle Sam wouldn't forget about us the Sontay raid proof that
[02:25:35] US Air Force first Lieutenant Mike Burns POW 1968 to 1973
[02:25:42] We were all jubilant because after so many years of waiting something finally happened
[02:25:46] Fighter pilots like to make things happen and are probably the worst probably worse than most people are doing nothing
[02:25:53] US Air Force Major DW Wayne Wadell
[02:25:56] POW 1967 in 1973 you guys made the biggest positive change in our so-jurn in North Vietnam and we can never
[02:26:07] Repay you for taking that risk thanks
[02:26:12] And I'll read one more this is US Air Force
[02:26:15] First Lieutenant Larry lucky shells chestly
[02:26:19] Sontay POW camp
[02:26:21] 1966 to 1973 I was captured in 1966 and spent the next 2,495 days just short of 7 years as a POW
[02:26:31] I was at Sontay
[02:26:33] We had prayed for months that God would move us to a better camp he did on July 14th
[02:26:38] I guess a person needs to be careful what he prays for he might get it
[02:26:41] We loaded in the trucks and went to a better camp which fulfilled our prayers
[02:26:45] Then the raid came we were blessed once more when we were moved to a better camp at Hanoi where we had big
[02:26:51] rooms about 48 of us in the room we could now teach each other things such as languages,
[02:26:56] choir, movie, we told movies and we had programs on each Sunday and also for Christmas
[02:27:03] Easter 4th of July Marine Day etc
[02:27:06] When we got packages and that was not very often those who got packages shared them with those
[02:27:11] That received nothing I never received any packages or letters for four years yes for four years my wife and family did not know
[02:27:18] If I was alive or dead I am eternally grateful to the heroic things that the men of the Sontay raid did for our country
[02:27:28] And those incarcerated in Vietnam
[02:27:34] I remember that came the fourth era I lied come in
[02:27:39] Their model was returned with order
[02:27:44] Yeah, it's outstanding
[02:27:46] Yeah, and as I said I was just hitting the highlights I didn't even cover all these POWs the the impact that you all had
[02:27:54] Conducting this operation which by the way I've been mentioned the operation name was ivory coast that was the name of the operation
[02:28:04] But you know the impact that you all had was just incredible and
[02:28:09] Amazing to be able to sit here and and talk to you some someone from a raid that I've studied and read about for many many years
[02:28:19] And just an incredible
[02:28:22] Opportunity to be able to sit here and talk to you and and hear these stories
[02:28:27] From you for everybody out there
[02:28:30] The book is just incredible piece of history and it's it's available on Kindle if you're one of these digital people there's an audio book
[02:28:38] Traditional print
[02:28:41] You know whether you want soft cover hard cover, but just an incredible book go out and get it we just covered a fraction of the stories today
[02:28:51] It's an amazing amazing piece of history. Thank you
[02:28:56] Probably a good place to wrap it up echo Charles. Do you have any questions?
[02:29:00] Nothing else than okay. Thank you. Wow. That's that's a rare occasion
[02:29:06] What was gonna ask about the wine tasting but that was a year thing right no that way after ask a Captain Charlie Plummer
[02:29:12] Yeah, maybe will reader bill reader about that one do we know what we learn in a wine tasting class
[02:29:19] Do anyone know that probably different ways that wine are made to taste different ways and
[02:29:26] No, I keep those people when you talk to the POWs we've talked to POWs the
[02:29:31] The
[02:29:33] The amount of focus that they have on food is incredible they go through everything that they've ever eaten in their whole lives
[02:29:41] Literally they have they'll talk about menu. They'll prepare a Christmas Eve dinner menu for months
[02:29:47] Right and just think about what they're gonna eat
[02:29:50] I mean because those guys were getting fed
[02:29:52] You know these little balls of rice with piece chips that wouldn't it?
[02:29:57] Yeah, they'd be happy if there was a bug in there because they'd get a little extra protein. Oh, good
[02:30:02] Yeah, that's amazing. I know I do to have those guys back on the podcast
[02:30:07] It'll be it'll be awesome to be able to ask them you know what they remember about about this and how it impacted them
[02:30:12] But amazing story Terry you got any final thoughts you want to share no
[02:30:17] I
[02:30:18] You know it was a team effort from the guys that supporting us
[02:30:22] I mean when you think about how many people were involved in the Sunday raid
[02:30:28] 56 guys were on the ground but we had I'm say
[02:30:32] 56 hundred helping us guys that were on the ships, you know, we had
[02:30:38] The aircraft came from three different
[02:30:46] Airpoint
[02:30:48] carriers and I think it was six or seven
[02:30:53] bases and
[02:30:55] It was a joint effort. I mean there are so many people involved in it
[02:31:00] But what's interesting is
[02:31:02] Nobody knew what was going on. They're all compartmentalized. They were all compartmentalized
[02:31:09] Colonel
[02:31:10] Sidnor or Colonel
[02:31:13] Simon's and
[02:31:15] Cheryl Manor had a letter from the
[02:31:19] Joint Chiefs of Staff that said if these guys need anything
[02:31:25] Give it to them no questions ask and that's what they had carried to every base they went to
[02:31:31] And there was no questions they never was turned down on anything they requested and
[02:31:37] You know, so that's how high in that
[02:31:40] Heshalon and wit but also how many people lower in the Heshalon and the impact and helped with the
[02:31:48] Sunday raid and some of them probably didn't even know they were doing it because of the secrecy
[02:31:54] You barely knew you were doing it until if you were to go for it
[02:31:58] Yeah, that's the part you know an hour before we took off is when we knew where we were going
[02:32:04] So
[02:32:06] Let's security was for our own benefit
[02:32:08] Absolutely, so you know, I'm never questioned why they kept out of secret
[02:32:14] I was just glad they did you know, so
[02:32:17] Well, I'm glad we can hear about the secret now and thank you for joining us out here
[02:32:22] My pleasure has been a real honor to be in all the veterans out there. Thank you for your service to the
[02:32:29] Great Country. I know we got some ruffy roads out there, but we also have been through them
[02:32:34] Before we will survive we just have to pick up our bootstraps and chug on
[02:32:42] Well, you you all have given us lessons learned and then
[02:32:48] Thank you for your for your service and for your contribution to America and for your contribution to
[02:32:55] Special forces and really to special operations as a whole as I said
[02:33:00] You and your your brothers and arms that conducted this this operation
[02:33:06] You made a huge impact
[02:33:09] Not only like I said to the POWs, but you made a huge impact to the morale of a country and you made a huge impact to
[02:33:17] Special operations and arched victory in history
[02:33:22] So
[02:33:23] Thank you for coming on and thank you for everything that you and your fellow son
[02:33:29] T-Raters have done
[02:33:31] We will not forget you thank you sir. Thank you
[02:33:37] And with that
[02:33:39] Terry Buckler has left the building
[02:33:43] Pretty awesome to be able to sit down and talk to him echo
[02:33:46] Yeah, how do you feel about it?
[02:33:48] It's interesting how do you feel about that whole
[02:33:51] scenario
[02:33:53] Not knowing where you're going to execute
[02:33:55] This massive mission and you don't know where you're going until an hour before you go yeah
[02:34:02] Yeah, obviously kind of there's a lot to think about it
[02:34:06] To start with where it's one of those things where it's almost like you're my I would imagine anyway that you're mine just kind of goes to okay
[02:34:13] I'm here to essentially do a mission and so it kind of blocks that of course you can be wondering I would imagine I don't know
[02:34:20] But of course you're imagining what you're gonna do but
[02:34:23] Either way, it's like it forces your mind to just be prepared for kind of anything
[02:34:28] But it's still very off-plitting
[02:34:32] To know this is what I thought about even more so though than that is so you know how he started the his business afterwards
[02:34:41] Right and it's like oh it just ties in like documents. It's like oh, right you didn't
[02:34:45] Start like some tactical shooting course just you know something like but it just goes to show where like
[02:34:53] Even tilt wasn't he like a reporter after all
[02:34:57] For a full career by the way. Yeah, so it just goes to show like how a military man
[02:35:05] Kind of like a due to man
[02:35:07] Is like
[02:35:08] Right you don't know like he he can be anybody and he can go and perform and do these crazy things hold the
[02:35:31] Construction guy or maybe like some some real hard job and he's like oh no, he's an accountant
[02:35:39] Okay, all right Eddie it just paints that picture more. Yeah, you know and there's something to be said for
[02:35:45] That's the way veterans have done it for a long time. I mean the world war two veterans came home and they
[02:35:53] Went and got jobs doing things, you know, they went back to school. They did the GI bill
[02:35:58] So like you don't have to you know not everyone's gonna come home and start a tactical shooting company
[02:36:04] You know like that's not
[02:36:06] That's not the normal thing what makes it seem normal is you know when someone owns a tactical shooting company that they were a veteran
[02:36:12] So you're like oh well everyone that's a veteran must start a tactical shooting company. Yeah, it's not necessarily true
[02:36:18] So feels that's a feels that way feels like it feels that way because there's no one that went to college and studied
[02:36:26] You know
[02:36:28] Studied economics and then started a tactical shooting company, right?
[02:36:31] Good sir, so you don't you don't have that data in your head
[02:36:35] So you think well, oh this guy's got a tactical shooting company. He was a veteran another guy has a tactical shooting company
[02:36:40] He's a veteran another guy so all veterans must start tactical shooting companies. No a lot of veterans go and
[02:36:46] Start well data processing companies and
[02:36:50] I work with I mean I work with a lot of companies where I work with veterans all the time that that
[02:36:57] You know we're talking about their business. We're talking about what they do and then occasionally
[02:37:00] Oh yeah, well, I was near army or oh I was in the Marine Corps and they have a totally separate job and they have a different career
[02:37:07] And that's very normal. It's not abnormal
[02:37:12] Yeah, it's actually more normal. It's more normal to do that than it is to start a tactical shooting company
[02:37:18] Very it's more normal. Yeah, and even and this more to
[02:37:22] I don't mean to put to find a viewpoint on it, but of course tactical shooting company, okay?
[02:37:26] But like any kind of adventurous and this is brought just my experience like the bias I came from my experience with meeting all these guys
[02:37:33] We're gonna make a think doing all these
[02:37:36] Adventurous things, you know, where it's like you go through these crazy missions or all these crazy military experiences
[02:37:41] You come home and boom
[02:37:43] Let's switch missions into some other quote-unquote
[02:37:46] Adventurous
[02:37:48] scenario, you know and a lot of people a lot of us or not us, but a lot of people do that
[02:37:53] Yeah, you see that you know, I think it's your awareness bias
[02:37:55] Yeah, because when you become aware of something that sounds like that you've got what's that person's background?
[02:38:01] Oh, they were a veteran that makes sense. Yeah, you don't look at an accountant and say whoa
[02:38:06] I wonder what military branch they were when they probably were that were there
[02:38:10] There's a decent chance that they were in the military
[02:38:12] There's all kinds of veterans out there working. I mean I meet veterans all the time when I go and work with companies companies just so you know
[02:38:21] Companies have
[02:38:22] Veteran programs inside their company. So I'll work with a financial company and inside their financial company
[02:38:29] They have like a veterans group and they'll say hey can we spend 15 minutes doing Q&A with you?
[02:38:33] And I go oh with who and they go oh we have a veterans group. We have you know of our
[02:38:37] 2000 employees we have
[02:38:39] 274 veterans and we
[02:38:42] We sell
[02:38:44] Insurance or we
[02:38:45] Manufacturer widgets or whatever, but they have a bunch of veterans at work there and that's every I mean when I work with big tech companies
[02:38:52] They have veterans when I work with financial companies they have a construction company
[02:38:55] Everyone's got veterans
[02:38:56] It's just that it stands out in your head when someone owns a shooting company because you think it's cool
[02:39:03] So it's normal for a veteran to come home and do what they're gonna do
[02:39:07] That's that's the way the world works
[02:39:10] But and this is a good example. It's the interesting thing about his career was just
[02:39:15] It's it's almost like this guy was in the NFL for
[02:39:21] One season and he didn't play any games except the Super Bowl
[02:39:26] Right like that's the kind of incredible and then he and then that was it he retired after the Super Bowl one game
[02:39:32] And went out there one the championship and
[02:39:35] And and then carried on with the rest of his life did three years
[02:39:41] Three years like and doing that such a such a high profile mission probably one of the most well
[02:39:48] The most high profile mission for special operations at that time
[02:39:53] It's amazing
[02:39:55] It's crazy so
[02:39:58] Good stuff awesome to be able to talk with him and this is a hugely influential mission for special operations
[02:40:04] We appreciate you support us by the way out there
[02:40:09] If you want to support us and you want to support yourself get go to jockelfield.com get some of these beverages by the way
[02:40:17] Freaking I did not get a lot of sleep last night got she got stuck in my
[02:40:23] in my roller coaster of brain thought which is it which is not I can't stand it you know
[02:40:29] I can't stand it and I the here's what was a bummer was I had bad sleep the night before and I was like
[02:40:36] Oh, I had a good workout. So I thought I'm gonna be asleep like a baby and I'm going to bed early
[02:40:41] Like you know 930. I'm getting ready to go to sleep
[02:40:44] I'm thinking all this is gonna be great. I'm gonna feel great. I went to bed, but you know 10 10
[02:40:50] I'm laying in bed in the darkness and I've got the eyes are shifting back and forth
[02:40:56] You know count the walls and thinking about this and thinking about that and thinking about this and thinking about that and thinking about this
[02:41:01] So that happened until one o'clock in the morning
[02:41:03] Which so when that happens then okay, so this because that happens that's a real thing where but is it the kind of where you think about one or two things over and over and over
[02:41:12] I can describe this
[02:41:14] This is the way it feels
[02:41:16] have you ever been to
[02:41:18] Disney land no okay
[02:41:21] There's a ride there. It's called space mountain and in space mountain
[02:41:25] You're on a roller coaster, but you can't see very much in front of you. It's in the dark basically
[02:41:30] So you're suddenly you're going in one direction and you'd go in a different direction and go in a different direction
[02:41:35] So that's what my mind is like I'm on
[02:41:37] I'm on a roller coaster it at dark, but I just keep seeing like a new idea comes up then another new idea
[02:41:42] I have another new idea then another new idea and it just doesn't stop
[02:41:46] And maybe sometimes it does circle back to the original idea which just starts the whole process again
[02:41:51] but I am
[02:41:53] Getting I probably slept two and a half hours last night which which sucks. I wanted to sleep more, but
[02:42:01] Here I am here I am so and I drank this I normally don't have two goes in one podcast
[02:42:08] But I did to best so
[02:42:11] You may need some clean energy in your life
[02:42:14] You don't need to have necessarily some jittery energy you don't need to have you need to have sugar intake
[02:42:20] You need to give yourself type two diabetes
[02:42:22] You can just get yourself a go get yourself a go
[02:42:26] Jock off you'll calm get yourself some more come on to go home and have more because I have any yet because I have
[02:42:31] Yeah, so
[02:42:33] We're feeling that yeah, and especially I said this before it's but if if you're lifting wait
[02:42:38] Or or each I did lift this morning by the way bad workout not a great workout like I mean
[02:42:44] I was borderline hey
[02:42:47] Am I gonna get the benefit from this workout right now?
[02:42:49] Yeah, yeah, so how many days of like
[02:42:54] Cheaty sleep do you have to go through to actually get a better because you can go one day junk sleep and still get a sick workout
[02:43:00] Yeah, I don't know I don't know but I will get good sleep tonight. That's the nice thing
[02:43:06] Rough for me two days if I go the second day bad sleep. Sorry workouts workout
[02:43:11] It's not even doing yeah, just workout it depends on what what I kind of if I if I
[02:43:17] Go into it and get kind of like a little bit of anger going then I'm pissed then I might get Jackson more still
[02:43:24] But I did a week workout, but do you are any of your work because this is different gonna work out
[02:43:29] But are any of your workouts like based on
[02:43:33] For lack of a term like a body building scenario. Okay, so yeah, put it this way then and tell me if this applies to you your workouts for you
[02:43:39] So if I do I don't know
[02:43:41] Chest one day where we are and then I don't feel the pump and I'm tired
[02:43:49] That is like there's something wrong with me physically
[02:43:51] Whether I didn't get enough sleep, but I didn't eat enough and not hydrate or whatever
[02:43:54] But if you don't get the pump that's a big indicator and then there's other stuff where it's like you just feel weak
[02:43:59] And just not into it mentally all the stuff there's other other factors
[02:44:02] But do you have any work out where it's like you're you feel the physical like pump versus if you don't
[02:44:08] I'd say it kind of feel that on a lot of workouts
[02:44:13] You know yeah like dips you feel dips you feel good put but muscle ups too like when you get done with muscle ups
[02:44:19] You feel like kind of jacked all the way around
[02:44:23] Yeah, so you know when chasing gardeners at the other day that he takes a one
[02:44:27] Discipline go pill in the morning that's he I haven't tried it yet, but that seems like a good move
[02:44:32] Just to get a little a little kicker
[02:44:34] Yeah, I haven't tried it yet. I have them before I'm like going to speak and I don't want to have a bladder filled with liquid
[02:44:43] Distracting you but you can feel those things feel those things for real
[02:44:48] So there you go you want some milk you want some joint warfare you want some krill oil go to jacophil.com
[02:44:53] You can get that you can get the drinks at walla by the way worth moving to some other convenience stores right now
[02:44:59] Also some other
[02:45:00] Some other big news coming on the front yeah for jacophil
[02:45:05] Vitamin shopping get it there as well. So check it out jacophil.com
[02:45:10] What else also origin you say yeah
[02:45:13] American manufactured goods durable goods as a word. I didn't know what that meant by the way
[02:45:18] durable goods yes, like clothes work clothes pants shoes that kind of stuff
[02:45:23] The new hunting line thing when is that going down because look do I hunt you know, let's be be able
[02:45:31] Probably not I think it's debate about it. Well, do
[02:45:35] Either way
[02:45:37] It can be used for other stuff. I will have something line
[02:45:42] This summer late summer to be prepared for the hunting season in
[02:45:48] September
[02:45:49] That's hunting so well, there's there's other hunting but the hunting season we're aiming for is that September hunting season
[02:45:56] So yeah, we're coming is there different hunting seasons for different places different places different animals different weapons
[02:46:05] Okay, so there's a whole bunch of things and it can go
[02:46:10] You know in yes different different animals different weapons different seasons
[02:46:17] You've got a bunch of stuff to contend with and we'll be making stuff for all of it
[02:46:21] very cool venture working with some great people
[02:46:25] Work with camhains, which is awesome. I mean, he's just a machine so it's it's that guy is
[02:46:32] Possessed and obsessed with hunting and so it's great to have him giving guidance on
[02:46:38] making the gear exactly
[02:46:40] As it should be made no compromise hey has to be able to perform if you're gonna keep up with camhains
[02:46:48] In the woods like that clothing has to keep up with camhains that clothing is thinking to itself
[02:46:54] All right, I'm gonna be put through the ringer
[02:46:57] So that's what we're talking about. It's like the highest possible standard
[02:47:01] Yeah, and like as it applies to actual hunting because let's face it when I'm looking at that thing
[02:47:05] I'm pretty much only concerned about how it's gonna look on me. Really this is
[02:47:11] Well when I'm doing whatever I'm being doing with it, but
[02:47:15] Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah, I mean I recently connected with him on my line too. So there you go
[02:47:21] Got a new friend. Yep. Oh, yeah, yeah
[02:47:23] So origin USA dot com if you want to check some of that stuff out. Yeah, also did you stuff. Oh, yeah, by the way, of course
[02:47:29] That's a huge deal main and North Carolina where we're making it it's unbelievable
[02:47:39] Bring it back
[02:47:41] Also there you go. Jocca is a store jocco store dot com so you can get your just political freedom shirts and hats and merch
[02:47:47] Good stuff. This quality. It's not just it's not just like
[02:47:51] My daughter always says it's stuff. You know, it's weird how kids nowadays. Well
[02:47:55] Let's face it my kids and their friends. I'm sure it's you know most kids were their terminology is like
[02:48:03] You know merch is like obviously we know what that means. It's short from merchant dice
[02:48:07] Which is merchandise is a specific thing. So we know the translation. They don't even know
[02:48:11] They're just like merch. That's the official word. You know my daughters speak in a kind of their own language
[02:48:17] With the and I went and saw one of my daughters up at my middle daughter up at college and got to listen to her
[02:48:22] Her friends and they have their own words their own language
[02:48:27] And it's pretty funny to listen to oh yeah sus
[02:48:30] Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, what is sus suspect yeah, which is suspicious like right? So we know that we know sus like on that look kind of sus
[02:48:39] So I be like okay, obviously
[02:48:41] That girl meets us
[02:48:42] Fish is also like oh, that's a suspect situation
[02:48:45] But some things could be sauce but suspect is a slang term derived from suspicious
[02:48:51] All right because suspect as a word is a person no, but you could also say oh that that chair is suspect whether it's going to
[02:48:58] You and say suspicious you say that thing is
[02:49:01] Suspect oh you'd say suspicious you could say that you could say that I'm pretty sure suspect is a noun
[02:49:08] Well, I guess we'll have to go to it's not the objective. I know you're an English major, but we want to revisit that
[02:49:15] Here's my hypothesis
[02:49:17] Suspicious is the adjective suspect is the noun sus is like
[02:49:23] Could go both ways if a Malcolm of the whole deal all right, we're whole English literature
[02:49:30] Understanding is sus at this time
[02:49:34] Either way jockels door.com is where you can get all this merch
[02:49:39] But it's more than just merch. It's like good it's quality. It's like well it's stuff you're supposed to actually wear and it's it's also
[02:49:45] You know part you know spread of the game. It's part of like you know
[02:49:51] If you're in the game it's part of the culture yeah, it's part of the game part of being in the game
[02:49:57] I remember when we first kind of had the podcast that would say like how'd you get into the game
[02:50:02] Still see that people I've been saying well maybe I need to bring it back
[02:50:05] When I mean how how do you get in the game? They've all heard you on Rogan you know
[02:50:09] I heard you on Tim Ferriss or whatever you know how'd you get in the game my uncle told me
[02:50:14] Oh whatever it's real so there you go if you want to get in the game
[02:50:17] Jockels door.com and represent true
[02:50:20] Also subscribe if you haven't already leave a review
[02:50:24] And you can subscribe to a bunch that a bunch but other podcasts as well that we're doing if we don't know
[02:50:30] Which ones?
[02:50:31] I'm a ravling with Darrell Cooper we're getting kind of crazy sometimes on those yeah
[02:50:36] Kind of crazy with DC that's how you got to roll DC's got a long trajectory of thought
[02:50:41] I understand who I try and explain that to people. Yeah DC's got a long trajectory of thought
[02:50:46] He's he's gonna make its case over
[02:50:49] Extended period of time
[02:50:51] So if you if you hear him say something and when I say say something when you hear Darrell Cooper say something for three hours
[02:50:57] He's only represented he that's like the warm up for him
[02:51:00] Great you gotta keep listening so keep listening to that and then you'll see that there's probably a more balanced overall picture
[02:51:08] But sometimes he seems a little bit you know you gotta take gotta get a listen to DC
[02:51:13] You gotta listen to the man so check out check out that one joc on ravling
[02:51:18] Grounded bonkass warrior kid bonkass. We got the joc on the ground appreciate your support there joc on the ground.com if you want to support free them a speech
[02:51:26] You got it you got a kind of pay attention that right now we know we got Elon Musk
[02:51:31] You just bought a chunk of Twitter
[02:51:33] And hopefully that's a positive sign in the world. Yeah, maybe bought it to maybe influence more freedom of speech
[02:51:40] Hey, you know, I mean that's the concept right because
[02:51:44] That's what kind of he's about
[02:51:47] That and putting rockets into space and making electric electrical cars true made America
[02:51:53] So there you go that's uh joc on the run.com if you want to help us out there check out the YouTube channel check out psychological war for check out flip side canvas to coat a mile
[02:52:00] The code of mire we got to get he just went to Ukraine by the way
[02:52:04] Whatever is the code of mire he's a metal vana recipient has talking to us today
[02:52:09] He's like I just got back up like oh, how is Ukraine he was in key right dude? I mean
[02:52:15] Just getting after it so if you want to help
[02:52:19] Support Dakota mire and all of his madness go to flipside canvas.com buy something cool to hang on your wall
[02:52:25] That's where you should do in my opinion got a bunch of books check out the books who will go into
[02:52:30] Sante
[02:52:32] That's what we covered today. We covered a fraction of it today Terry Butler check that out. I written a bunch of books too if you want to get some more
[02:52:39] of the conceptual
[02:52:42] Ideals that I speak of you can check out any of the books that I wrote you can check out we have a leadership
[02:52:47] Consultancy called echelon furnished on front dot com if you want to come
[02:52:52] Check some of that out
[02:52:54] We have an online academy
[02:52:56] For human beings that have to interact with other human beings go to extreme ownership dot com
[02:53:03] You've got a question for me coming ask me you can ask me on a zoom call. I'm there
[02:53:07] You can just ask me your question about your boss about your employee about your girlfriend about your boyfriend about your kid about your jitsu
[02:53:15] tournament
[02:53:17] What everyone ask me
[02:53:19] We want to hear your questions go to extreme ownership dot com take we got a bunch of courses to take about
[02:53:26] How to utilize the dichotomy of leadership about how to utilize cover move
[02:53:34] Lots of important things extreme ownership dot com if you want to help service members
[02:53:39] Active and retired you want to help out their families gold star families check out mark
[02:53:43] Lees mom mom and Lee she's got a charity organization. It's a wonderful thing that helps out in incredible ways
[02:53:51] If you want to donate or you want to get involved go to america's mighty or yours dot org you can also check out
[02:53:57] Heroes and horses dot com make a think who I think you mentioned a few minutes ago
[02:54:04] Yeah, because you're like what was Mike a think going to do when he gets done with his time in the seal teams
[02:54:09] He's probably gonna do something bad ass. So heroes and horses dot com check that out as far as echo and I go with both on
[02:54:17] Who are on Twitter on the gram or on Facebook where we're we're possibly
[02:54:23] Gonna pull you into the algorithm but we don't want you to get pulled into the algorithm
[02:54:27] We want you to cut away from the algorithm that goes at equitrolls. I am at jockelwillink you can also check out
[02:54:33] Terry Buckler. He's got a Facebook page if you want to check out his Facebook page see what he's up to
[02:54:41] Facebook at Terry Buckler and
[02:54:45] Thank you once again to Terry Buckler for coming on for sharing his experiences and thanks to Terry and the rest of the
[02:54:54] Sontay Raiders
[02:54:56] The mighty special forces green braze and the other support personnel the pilots the air crew that took the risks to attempt to rescue our fellow service men
[02:55:10] And thanks all the military personnel out there right now who are willing to take risk to protect and secure freedom around the world and thanks
[02:55:18] For the work done by our police and law enforcement
[02:55:22] Firefighters paramedics EMTs dispatchers correctional officers board of patrol secret service and all first responders who sacrifice
[02:55:32] To protect and secure us and our way of life here at home and to everyone else out there
[02:55:39] Remember some of the key lessons from Terry Buckler today
[02:55:45] Add humor to your life
[02:55:47] Especially in tough situations be excellent in everything you do always train and improve
[02:55:54] Be patient but no end to be aggressive don't be a complainer don't be indispensable be thankful for those who sacrifice for our freedom and
[02:56:07] Be prepared for death
[02:56:09] Make sure the day that you meet your maker isn't the first time you've been introduced
[02:56:18] Because if you're prepared for death you are free to live life fearlessly and that
[02:56:26] Is a good plan
[02:56:28] So go out there and get after it
[02:56:31] And until next time Zekko and Joko out