Jocko Podcast 315 w/ Echo Charles: Draft Dodgers. And Low IQ Men as Cannon Fodder. McNamara's Folly

2022-01-09T14:43:23Z

Underground Premium Content: https://www.jockounderground.com/subscribe Join the conversation on Twitter/Instagram: @jockowillink @echocharles 0:00:00 - Opening 0:02:39 - McNamara's Folly. The Use of low-IQ troops in the Vietnam War. 2:19:13 - Final thoughts 2:44:29 - How to stay on THE PATH. JOCKO UNDERGROUND Exclusive Episodes: https://www.jockounderground.com/subscribe Jocko Store Apparel: https://www.jockostore.com Jocko Fuel: https://jockofuel.com Origin Jeans and Clothes: https://originmaine.com/durable-goods/ Echelon Front: https://www.echelonfront.com 3:02:35 - Closing gratitude.

AI summary of episode

Like when I read this and I read that all these 68% of people avoided the draft like I read that it doesn't it's hard for me to compute that it's hard for me to compute like being a man and being like, Oh, a bunch of people are going to go fight a war. Like, well, how do you know, like even, I'm not saying no one's going to, but then you're you're counting for like so many people, so many different types of people, by the way. I don't really, it seems like because there wasn't social media because there wasn't 24-hour news cycle, if you lived in Ohio, and you were going to join the army, you only saw the other people in Ohio, and probably the people that you hung out with were like, yeah, well, you're joining the army, you're from Ohio and where Americans are, we're joining the army, oh, you got drafted cool. Going crazy he says this during my lifetime in moments of extreme stress anxiety or panic I have done things that are dumb and destructive it is humbling and instructive to remember my own episodes of dysfunction when I consider the insane actions of some project hundred k men who were young typically nineteen or twenty and burdened with more anxiety and vulnerability than I will ever experience that's a freaking great point you think about the things that you've done when you're stressed out freaked out and you've done dumb things behave badly made bad decisions because of that and you're a smart person imagine what these other people I don't know more stress in a combat scenario. Then again, think about it because you could see like one of these people, especially if you're used to just like handling people and that with that kind of numbers, you know, we need a thousand guys here. And when you kind of take it as a whole, the reality sets in where it's like, no man, this is going to leave people straight up dead, confused, freaking like worse off, you know, because all of the unintended consequences. And also, if you say, hey, here's, we're going to war and you cannot explain why and the top of this goes, hey, dude, what are we doing going, and as soon as you got people going, hey, right? But if you think back to, let's say a 20 year old person who isn't like you, like maybe maybe maybe they do have my maybe their middle class and they got normal stuff, quote, I'm quote, normal stuff went on. But just like the idea of, hey, if I pitch the draft, you like this, listen, where at war we need people, everyone's going to have to serve. And just like this, just like imposing the draft, that's why people is like, don't you think everyone should serve in the military? So it's like a, it's like a, this constant balancing act because sure you can have more people, but you can't lower the standards all the way down so that more people actually hurt because there are a month people who are incapable, whatever. I mean, that's a that's a spectrum to where like isn't that like a typical thing people might say about the criminal justice, right where it's like. But blood pressure is like that seems like something you can just sort of cure with like even like the weight thing. You know, like, if you're going to the, I don't know, what you're going to do. You'd be like, you know what, don't really like it, but it seems like the fair thing to do, cool them down. So it really clarifies that those did the difference in perspective because look, if I'm a little guy who's not very strong and I, and each one of our, and I'm, and we got the cut-up log and everybody and you know, you got, I don't know, how many guys in a year and a boat crew with other guys that are your same height or very similar. In city, as totalitarian, communist wanted to enslave us and trample upon our rights, we must be strong men, obedient men, and we must be willing to sacrifice like Washington's troops did at Valley Forge in the darkest days of the Revolutionary War, or like Eisenhower troops did on the beaches of Normandy. I was like, you know, you know, you're just a little bit like I was like a thing like and other people like his friends or whatever would do that as well. Or maybe now it's like less like official, you know, or something like that. All these people avoiding, we covered that one book called Company Commander and the guys going through Army O.C. Army Officer Cannon at school and they're like, where do you want to go? But like I said, like it's not a vacuum and it's not, you know, people are different. So let's get some, you know, some other guys doing some other stuff, we're sure that, you know, one of these three guys could probably do the job of eight of these other guys, but they're over here doing, you know, busy doing other stuff, so let's get eight more guys. In infantry units, the poor were joined by many men from working class families described by historian Christian G. Appies as, quote, the 19-year-old children of waitresses, factory workers, truck drivers, secretaries, firefighters, carpenters, custodians, police officers, salespeople, clerks, mechanics, miners, and farm workers, and, quote, men from lower economic levels, porn working class comprised 80% of the combat forces, while the remaining 20% came from the middle class, half of them serving his officers. But when it comes with that booster, whatever you kind of accept it, then you kind of embrace it, then it's kind of like, yeah, you know, it's working kind of a thing. But again, think about how it was probably like for anything like, hey, what if your neighbor, what if hey, look, I grew up on, you know, fifth street and proud. Or you know, I was like, like, fuck, you know, I was either, I come to jail or come here. And then you go to war and you realize that people are going to get killed and you're realizing to kill some bad people and you realize that some civilians are going to die as well. But you wonder like, I wonder if that was on purpose that they're kind of like, oh, yeah, maybe all these other consequences or did they really kind of think that. And she's like, oh, like, let's do something else wherever he's like, oh, no, no, math is fun. So, and it's like, damn, now I got to risk my life for something I don't really know about, not necessarily that I'm against or for nothing like that. So steel man argument for that is kind of like, yeah, like there are success stories and those success stories kind of play out exactly how they're purporting. Yeah, and again, it kind of goes back, you know, in a small way, maybe in a big way to the, that like marketing campaign idea. And you mentioned it earlier too, right, where that'll kind of make the general society unhappy, where it's like, hey, these are like, they have important roles in our society, because they're educated and all this stuff. Most project 100,000 men were graduated from basic training, even if the even if company commanders had to cheat to get them through, after leaving basic training, project 100,000 men were sent to AIT, which is advanced individual training to learn impotu tactics or if they were lucky specialized skills, such as radio telephone operator RTL, perhaps. So there's got people getting drafted, you got people getting told, hey, you're gonna get drafted bro, you might just, so they never would have enlisted voluntarily. Because psychologically, like if it's all one log and you kind of can't tell who's putting out and who's not, doesn't that kind of add to the team building experience where you kind of got to trust the guy? And he's like, all in do it, you know, and then she tells she was like kind of bored with it.

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Episode transcript

[00:00:00] This is Jockel Podcast number 315 with echo Charles and me, Jockel willing. Good evening, echo.
[00:00:06] Good evening.
[00:00:08] 7 plus 14 equals A21 B22 C23 D24.
[00:00:18] A boy buys a sandwich for 20 cents, milk for 10 cents, and pie for 15 cents.
[00:00:26] How much does he pay for it all? A30 cents B35 cents C45 cents D50 cents.
[00:00:38] A rose is a kind of A animal B bird C fish D flower.
[00:00:48] A chord most merely means A ignorant B dangerous C clumsy D vulgar.
[00:00:58] I rate most nearly means A irresponsible B in subordinate C untidy D angry.
[00:01:10] Those are examples from a brochure that was handed out to potential service recruits in the 1960s
[00:01:24] to explain to them the type of questions that they were going to be asked on the AFQT, the armed forces qualification tests.
[00:01:34] What we now call the ASVAB in order to qualify them for military service.
[00:01:42] I read that from an appendix that's in a book called McNamara's Folly, the use of low IQ troops in the Vietnam War.
[00:01:54] The book was written by a guy by the name of Hamilton Gregory who served in Vietnam himself.
[00:02:04] In this book Gregory explains that not everyone could pass that test, which meant that there were people who did not qualify to join the service.
[00:02:20] They did not have the cognitive capacity to be a soldier.
[00:02:28] But guess what? In order to fight a war, you need men.
[00:02:32] And McNamara devised a way to get more men into the military, whether they were capable or not.
[00:02:42] And it is a very sad story indeed.
[00:02:50] You're going to find out that Hamilton Gregory actually ended up very close with some of these people during some parts of his service.
[00:03:00] So let's go to the book. In 1966, the US War in Vietnam was heating up rapidly.
[00:03:05] President Johnson and his secretary of defense Robert McNamara were faced with the problem. The armed forces needed more troops for the war zone.
[00:03:13] But there was a shortage of men who were considered fair game for the military draft.
[00:03:17] There were plenty of men of draft age, which is 18 to 26 in America, but most of them were unavailable.
[00:03:25] Many were attending college using student deferments to avoid the draft.
[00:03:30] Workers had found safe havens in the National Guard and Reserves, which by and large were not sent to Vietnam.
[00:03:36] So if you in the National Guard or Reserves, you weren't going to get sent to war.
[00:03:41] That's not true anymore.
[00:03:44] But in Vietnam, if you were in the National Guard, you weren't getting sent to Vietnam.
[00:03:49] Still others were disqualified because they scored poorly on the military's mental and physical entrance tests.
[00:03:56] How could Johnson and McNamara round up enough men to send a war? They realized they would anger the vote power from middle class if they drafted college boys.
[00:04:05] And if they sent National Guardsmen and Reserves to Vietnam.
[00:04:10] So instead they decided to induct the low scoring men whom Johnson referred for referred to in a secret White House tape as,
[00:04:19] quote, second class fellows. And quote, on October 1st, 1966, McNamara launched a program called Project 100,000,
[00:04:31] which lowered the mental standards.
[00:04:34] Men who had been unqualified for military duty the day before were now deemed qualified.
[00:04:39] By the end of the war, McNamara's program had taken 354,000 substandard men into the Army, Marine Corps, Air Force and Navy.
[00:04:48] Among the troops, these men were often known as McNamara's Morons or the Moron Corps or McNamara's boys.
[00:05:00] Military leaders from William Mess West, Moreland, the Commanding General and Vietnam, two mutinants and sergeants to the platoon level, viewed McNamara's program as a disaster.
[00:05:13] Because many of the project 100,000 men were slow learners, they had difficulty absorbing necessary training because many of them were incompetent combat.
[00:05:24] They endangered not only themselves, but their comrades as well.
[00:05:29] A total of 5,478 low IQ men died well in the service, most of them in combat.
[00:05:38] Their fatality rate was 3 times as high as other GIs.
[00:05:43] An estimated 20,000 were wounded and some were permanently disabled.
[00:05:49] There were also tens of thousands of other, quote, second-class men who were not part of Project 100,000,
[00:05:56] but were inducted despite medical defects, such as missing fingers and blindness in one eye, psychiatric disorders,
[00:06:04] social, malajustment and criminal backgrounds.
[00:06:08] Military leaders didn't want them, but were forced to accept them.
[00:06:13] We don't know how many of them died or were wounded.
[00:06:17] While I was in the Army, which was 1967 to 1970, I got to know some of McNamara's substandard soldiers,
[00:06:25] and I vowed that someday I would tell their stories and give the historical background.
[00:06:31] This book is the fulfillment of that vow.
[00:06:36] There's the opener. That's just the prologue.
[00:06:41] It's very disturbing to hear this.
[00:06:44] And also, as we read through this, you're going to definitely think of Forest Gump.
[00:06:51] You all, we have all seen that movie Forest Gump, and you think, how is that guy in the military?
[00:06:57] He's a perfect example, and you're going to hear plenty of examples like that.
[00:07:00] Same thing with full metal jacket, you know, private pile.
[00:07:03] Obviously, a guy you think, well, how could he actually get recruited?
[00:07:08] Well, here's how. McNamara's 100K.
[00:07:12] Here's a note. He says, author's note, I'm aware words like, more on retarded, fatso,
[00:07:18] and dwarf are considered insensitive and offensive in today's society, but I use them because they were widely used in the 1960s.
[00:07:25] And it would mar the historical accuracy of my report if I replace them with words that are kinder.
[00:07:30] Likewise, I sometimes quote individuals whose descriptions are harsh and unsympathetic,
[00:07:35] but I have included them to document how men who were different were viewed and treated in those days.
[00:07:43] Names and certain other identifying features of the men at Fort Benning have been changed to protect the privacy of the individuals and their families.
[00:07:50] So, there's some language clearly that is considered offensive today, and he knows that,
[00:07:55] but he wanted to kind of give a feel of what these guys were like and how they were being treated,
[00:08:01] what they were being called back in the day.
[00:08:05] So, moving into this a little bit, getting into how his story started.
[00:08:10] He says, one morning in the summer of 1967, I was seated with over 100 men in a room at the Armed Forces induction center in Nashville, Tennessee.
[00:08:18] But it was the height of the Vietnam War, and I had volunteered for service in the U.S. Army.
[00:08:23] Sergeant walked into the room and announced that all of us would leave soon for travel to Fort Benning, Georgia, to begin our army training,
[00:08:32] then he asked, is anyone here a college graduate?
[00:08:34] I raised my hand, and he motioned me to follow him.
[00:08:38] He took me down a hallway to a bench where a young man was sitting.
[00:08:42] He informed me that the young man was named Johnny Gupton, who was also being assigned to Fort Benning.
[00:08:47] I want you to take charge of Gupton, he said, go with him every step of the way.
[00:08:52] Without bothering to lower his voice, he explained that Gupton could neither read nor write,
[00:08:57] and would be neat and would need help filling out paperwork when we arrived at Benning.
[00:09:01] Then he added, make sure he doesn't get lost.
[00:09:04] He's one of McNamara's morons.
[00:09:07] I had never heard the term, and I was surprised that the sergeant would openly insult Gupton.
[00:09:13] In a few weeks, I would learn that McNamara's morons was a team that many officers and NCOs used to refer to low IQ men who were taking into the military under a program,
[00:09:25] devised by Defense Secretary Robert S. McNamara to raise their IQs and mold them into productive soldiers.
[00:09:36] He goes on a little bit further and says, I was nervous about the rigors ahead, but I felt brave and stoic and important.
[00:09:42] I envisioned losing weight and bulking up my muscles and becoming a lean green fighting machine.
[00:09:47] As the popular saying, had it, I looked beyond the eight weeks of hell and pictured myself going home on leave, looking hard and fit.
[00:09:53] I tried to make small talk with Gupton, but he didn't say much.
[00:09:59] I asked him what state he was from, but he didn't know.
[00:10:03] He spoke with a hillbilly accent and used mountain phrases like, I know it and so do water.
[00:10:10] He looked unhealthily thin.
[00:10:14] I was surprised that he knew nothing about the situation he was in. He didn't understand what basic training was all about,
[00:10:20] and he didn't know that America was in a war.
[00:10:24] I tried to explain what was happening, but at the end I could tell he was still in a fog.
[00:10:31] That's what we're dealing with here. Guys that don't even know what state they're from.
[00:10:41] There's a bunch of details in here. You got to get the book and read it.
[00:10:45] As he interacts with some of these folks, they have to put down their address. They can't write.
[00:10:52] They can't fill out a form because they can't read. It's very, very sad.
[00:10:58] When is this book written? He wrote it. I mean, he wrote it now, but it's taking place in 1960, whatever.
[00:11:06] But at this book came copyright in 2015.
[00:11:09] I actually researched to try and get in touch with Hamilton Gregory, but unfortunately he passed away.
[00:11:18] Here's an example of what we're dealing with.
[00:11:21] Gupton's new combat boots provided a challenge. He could tie the laces, but the knot was primitive and ineffective.
[00:11:26] I tried to teach him how to make a standard knot to know a veil, so I ended up tying his boots every morning.
[00:11:37] He says Gupton was unable to make his bunk to strict army specifications, so Flo Ellen was another guy.
[00:11:43] Flo Ellen and I had to do a job form every morning. Gupton had difficulty distinguishing between officers and sergeants.
[00:11:50] He goes through all kinds of examples of what's going on in boot camp.
[00:11:57] And they show up at boot camp.
[00:11:59] They're doing standard boot camp stuff.
[00:12:03] I want to go to Vietnam. I want to kill some Viet Kong. Don't call me.
[00:12:07] Sir, I work for a living. Kind of all those stereotypical things that you hear about all that's going on.
[00:12:11] Fast forward a little bit.
[00:12:14] This chapter is called weaklings, fatties and dummies. One morning as the 185 trainees of Bravo Company were assembled in front of Captain Bosch.
[00:12:23] He called out the names of 15 men, including me and Gupton.
[00:12:27] We were ordered to come forth and stand in line in front of the captain. He announced that we had been identified as being deficient.
[00:12:33] You are the scum of this company. A goddamn bunch of weaklings and fatties and dummies, he said.
[00:12:40] For now on, we would be known as the Muck Squad. You know what Muck is? That's a shit at the bottom of a sewage pit.
[00:12:46] That's what you are. Worthless shit. I'm going to run your asses all day long. He said that Bravo Company had a good chance of compiling the highest average on the final PT test of any company at Fort Benninging.
[00:12:56] But that we threatened to drag down the company average.
[00:13:00] We were still members of our regional platoons, but whenever Captain Bosch asked for the Muck Squad,
[00:13:05] we had to leave our comrades and line up in front of him. We received physical training beyond what we received with our platoons.
[00:13:10] It was often given before lunch and after dinner.
[00:13:14] So you can kind of pick this up and I forget if I highlight this or not.
[00:13:18] But the guy actually Hamilton Gregory is not in good shape.
[00:13:21] And so he shows up and he even mentioned you know I want to lose some fat in some muscle.
[00:13:25] So he's not like an athletic guy that shows up and apparently that's why he's getting called out.
[00:13:30] Here's another interesting story about what we're dealing with.
[00:13:36] Someone in the barracks discovered that Gupton fought a nickel was more valuable than dying because it was bigger in size.
[00:13:41] I saw him being cheated by a trainee who said, I'll give you this big nickel if you give me your little dime.
[00:13:49] He says, word of Gupton's ignorance about coins apparently spread to the officers because one day Muck Squad lined up,
[00:13:56] Captain Bosch appeared with several visiting officers and the first thing they did was show up in a nickel and a dime and asked him what you would prefer.
[00:14:03] They all grin when he pointed to the nickel.
[00:14:07] Did you ever think that?
[00:14:09] Do you ever remember thinking that that an nickel is worth more than that?
[00:14:12] Yeah, when I was five.
[00:14:13] Yeah, but I remember that because it kind of made sense in a way before you're good or you knew basic math.
[00:14:21] Because look, you got a penny which kind of segregated itself because it's not made out of the shiny silver stuff or whatever it's made out of something.
[00:14:28] Yeah, you don't more brown.
[00:14:30] But I actually can remember thinking a penny was more valuable than a dime.
[00:14:33] Oh, okay.
[00:14:34] I was just going to size.
[00:14:35] Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's going.
[00:14:36] We're just going to mass.
[00:14:37] But it makes sense if you just exclude the dime a nickel relationship and the penny to this other fact.
[00:14:43] But if you exclude that little relationship, it makes sense because you go up, you go quarters bigger.
[00:14:48] And you got the 50 cent piece, that's even bigger.
[00:14:51] You got the dollar, that's even bigger back home.
[00:14:52] Cool, but the point is what age did you figure out that that wasn't a deal?
[00:14:55] I don't know, but I just said, I can kind of relate a little bit.
[00:14:58] You can relate to guff them when you were five.
[00:15:00] This guy's in the military, which paints a picture.
[00:15:03] And if we trading coins, yeah, that's too.
[00:15:06] It's awful.
[00:15:07] Yeah.
[00:15:11] He says, then the visitor's student from the one man at a time and ask such questions as who's the president of the United States.
[00:15:16] This question was one of the most most the men could not answer.
[00:15:21] Only officers looked at me, probably noting my goofy face and asked, where are we fighting a war?
[00:15:26] Vietnam sir, where's Vietnam located?
[00:15:28] I replied as much as I could muster.
[00:15:31] Sir, Vietnam is situated in Asia directly south of China and in addition to Louson Cambodia.
[00:15:36] He looks surprised by my intelligent response.
[00:15:38] And his fellow officers grinned.
[00:15:40] He's a college graduate, Interjected, Captain Bosch.
[00:15:43] But he's bad, be out of shape.
[00:15:45] One of the visitors who was a captain asked, up then, which rank is higher, Captain or general?
[00:15:50] Goupton was speaks us for a few moments in the in-stammered, I don't know, Drill Sergeant, Drill Sergeant, the officer yelled.
[00:15:56] He pointed as his insignia and said, don't you know these two bars mean, Captain?
[00:16:00] Don't you know what you're supposed to say, sir?
[00:16:03] Captain Bosch said, can you believe this idiot was drafted?
[00:16:06] I'll tell you who else is an idiot.
[00:16:08] Fucking Robert McNamera.
[00:16:09] How can he expect us to win a war if we draft these morons?
[00:16:14] Captain Bosch's contemptuous remark about defense, Secretary McNamera was typical of the comments I often heard from
[00:16:22] Career Army men who detested McNamera's lowering of enlistment standards in order to bring low IQ men into the ranks.
[00:16:31] So we always, well, no, we always.
[00:16:37] This is something that comes up all the time today too, right?
[00:16:39] We're always concerned about lowering the standards for things.
[00:16:42] Because when you start to lower the standards and there for a reason,
[00:16:45] start to lower the standards and we don't know what's going to happen.
[00:16:49] I think that's the scariest thing about lowering standards.
[00:16:52] Is that you, you don't know, you don't know what's going to happen.
[00:16:56] You just know what has worked and even when things you say they quote worked,
[00:17:01] you know that those things have been stressed and sometimes they didn't work all that well and maybe the standard should have been higher.
[00:17:06] So now we're going to lower them.
[00:17:08] Yeah, but concerning thing to do a lot of times, or
[00:17:11] I don't know what that means, but the thought behind it is lowering standards because we need more people.
[00:17:19] Well, that's what I think, right?
[00:17:21] So it's like a, it's like a, this constant balancing act because sure you can have more people,
[00:17:25] but you can't lower the standards all the way down so that more people actually hurt because there are a month people who are incapable, whatever.
[00:17:32] That's the point.
[00:17:34] Yeah, so I see the under like, because what if your standards are too high?
[00:17:39] Like no one can meet the standards, so now you got one guy here for three guys and they can't do the job because there's only three of them.
[00:17:45] So let's get some, you know, some other guys doing some other stuff, we're sure that, you know, one of these three guys could probably do the job of eight of these other guys,
[00:17:54] but they're over here doing, you know, busy doing other stuff, so let's get eight more guys.
[00:17:58] You know, but when they started getting each other's way.
[00:18:01] Yeah, and then we got a, I guess the question is really.
[00:18:05] Where do you draw the line?
[00:18:06] Yeah.
[00:18:07] And that's what's hard to figure out.
[00:18:09] Yes, sir.
[00:18:10] Because, well, like I said, you have your standards and you think, well, we kind of have survived with these standards for four wars, right?
[00:18:22] They kind of worked and all of a sudden we're going to know, you know what? We're actually going to lower these standards.
[00:18:27] That's a move to make.
[00:18:30] Yeah.
[00:18:31] Especially, and this is very common for McNamara to just make decisions and impose things without consulting the front line troops that actually have to train and then go fight alongside these people that are not capable.
[00:18:49] A little bit more about boot camp here.
[00:18:52] They began at 430. They was filled with exercise instruction, menial chores, all accompanied by incest and shouting and insult. We were called a variety of disparaging names, including shit heads, assholes, pussy, scumbags, line balls, pansies and coerce.
[00:19:08] One verbally clever sergeant would refer to a poorly performing training as a sad sack of shit or an idiotic turd.
[00:19:15] Or he would tell him that whale shit at the bottom of the, is at the bottom of the ocean and you're lower than whale shit.
[00:19:23] And night we got a little sleep. We're supposed to go to bed at 10 o'clock, but it's things turned out we were up until 1230, which meant we only got four hours of sleep.
[00:19:31] Some nights we didn't even get four hours of sleep. If we had to pull fireguard duty, we'd spend an hour patrolling inside and outside the barracks watching for fire, then we would wake up on replacement. There's a bunch of interesting information about boot camp.
[00:19:47] And then he says, I learned that Captain Bosch wanted to read as many of us members of the Muck squad as possible because they threatened to pull down the company average for the end of basic training tests, which is, this is pretty typical of the military where there's some weird.
[00:20:04] And then the rule or some weird goal that causes all of these unintended circumstances. Like, okay, we're going to judge you. We'll give a company award for the best PT scores and then people start running people out of the company and not training them.
[00:20:16] That's unintended consequences in the military is always I always got a chuck a lot of them, but it happens in every industry.
[00:20:23] So that's where you got to be aware of them. So here's this guy that you know the commanding general or whoever the regimental commander, I thought, I want to see, I want to really have something to strive for. Let's give let's give the best companies PT scores on award.
[00:20:37] We'll give him a stream around their flag. Yeah, that'll be great.
[00:20:41] So now you just got these these leaders just getting rid of people.
[00:20:47] So that's what happens. Here's a little bit more scaringness for a week or so, a sergeant was assigned to a company guped in at the rifle range.
[00:20:56] I overheard the sergeant telling other sergeant that guped and should absolutely never be allowed to handle loaded weapons on his own.
[00:21:02] All the sergeants agreed that big trouble would happen in the weeks ahead when we train he's simulated combat with such maneuvers as fire and movement.
[00:21:12] In which you advance in parallel lines with a partner through an assault course while your partner ran ahead you provided cover fire.
[00:21:19] Then he drops to the ground and provided cover fire for you as you ran ahead and so on down the field.
[00:21:26] The sergeants foresaw disaster. So this guy's not even being able to be capable of the fundamental rudimentary tactic of war which is cover move.
[00:21:38] Here this is where you can see that that Gregory's having some issues on one of these forced marches is getting called a damn pussy.
[00:21:50] Get back up and run like a man.
[00:21:52] This continues on after we marched an hour or so.
[00:21:56] I got heat cramps in my shoulders and became dizzy and nauseated at one rest stop. I took a swig of water from my canteen which made me vomit.
[00:22:04] Floaling which again is one of his buddies came over and felt my forehead which he said was burning up. He summoned sergeant Boone who splashed cool water on my face.
[00:22:13] Then the light my load the sergeant carried my rifle while flew well and carried my pack and we continued our march.
[00:22:18] When we arrived at the rifle range I felt sick and dizzy and had and I was parched and I walked to a patch of glass laid down and blanked out.
[00:22:26] Next thing I knew as an ambulance headed toward the hospital medic was taking my temperature which was 105 when we got to the hospital.
[00:22:32] My temperature was 105 I was stripped down and dunked into a big hospital tub filled with ice and water. I was kept in the hospital for a few days and then released back to Bravo company.
[00:22:42] But while I was gone, Captain Boosh had secured permission to have me sent to special training company because I had missed key days of training and needed quote rehabilitation for being recycled to another basic training company.
[00:22:58] So he's got the opportunity to get rid of this guy that's slow and not the best to shape and he gets put in this special training company.
[00:23:06] So let's fast forward a little bit to this special training company.
[00:23:10] When I arrived at special training company I was taken to the orderly room to be interviewed by the first sergeant undoubtedly influenced by my goofy face.
[00:23:19] He said we got to fill out some paperwork. Can you read and write?
[00:23:24] Gregor replies I hope so I said on a college graduate. He gave me a surprise look. He was just one of the many who pre-judged me because I appear to be adult.
[00:23:34] I smiled and said I bet you I thought I bet you thought I was one of McNamara's morons. He gritted said we got a lot of morons here. We don't need anymore.
[00:23:42] When I told him I wanted to pass through special training and finish basic. It's quickly as possible. He seemed pleased and we ended up having a friendly conversation.
[00:23:49] There were about a hundred men in special training. Most of whom had failed basic training because they possessed one or more of these attributes.
[00:23:55] Menally slow, weak, inept, overweight or psychologically troubled.
[00:24:00] Also present were trainees who were convalescing from injuries.
[00:24:04] Whereas physical training occupied about 40% of our active and basic training, it consumed 90% in special training company.
[00:24:13] We were supposed to get instruction that would help us with the rifle and test and the G3 proficiency test, but there was very little assistance.
[00:24:22] Low IQ men were supposed to get remedial reading lessons, but I saw no evidence of such training at special training. It was PT all day every day.
[00:24:32] After I stood my gear in a wall locker, I joined the company which was on the PT field struggling with the most excruciating physical torment I have ever endured in my life.
[00:24:43] Intensive log drills.
[00:24:45] He goes on to talk about log PT, actually has a picture of seals in here doing log PT because if you don't know that's a huge part of not a huge part.
[00:24:55] It's a substantial part of basic seal training.
[00:24:59] We call it log PT.
[00:25:02] Is that the log PT? Mainly.
[00:25:07] Because they're not really exercises, they're just like, we want to introduce this log to your whole thing to make everything hard or is it actually a program?
[00:25:17] We want to work out.
[00:25:20] What he says here is the drill is nothing but torture involving no true rehabilitation or strengthening.
[00:25:26] That's what he says. Maybe that answer your question.
[00:25:29] But when you do it in Buds, it's definitely like it's teamwork and strength.
[00:25:39] So you have a log, it's basically a small telephone pole, maybe it's probably 15 feet long or something like that.
[00:25:47] Maybe 10 feet long, do you ever take it in the water?
[00:25:50] Oh yeah. Do the float? You take it in the water, you take it through the obstacle course.
[00:25:56] Because water is not a huge part of it.
[00:25:58] It would have to float, otherwise you would drown.
[00:26:01] But you know how there's different, okay, so in quite we have logs too, we mess with or whatever in the water.
[00:26:06] But sometimes if they're super dry, they'll float float.
[00:26:09] They're a little bit too soon.
[00:26:11] But if they're not, they'll kind of float, but if you get on it, it'll sink and it's a pain in that.
[00:26:15] It's much more land device.
[00:26:18] Yeah, but you do, like you, you all put it on your left shoulder, then you just squats.
[00:26:23] Then you do overhead press and you hold it up there.
[00:26:25] And then you do like left shoulder, right shoulder overhead press it.
[00:26:28] And then you do lay down, you do sit-ups where that you do.
[00:26:30] So you just any kind of PT, channel, scenics, because it's like,
[00:26:34] It's just a little bit of a program there. Like where it's like, okay.
[00:26:37] Yeah, like you do push-ups, you lay down, you do like bench press with it.
[00:26:41] Yeah, you know, then you do push-ups on it.
[00:26:44] And then you do sit-ups. I remember doing sit-ups, because I remember they said sit-ups.
[00:26:48] And I was kind of thinking, how are you going to do a sit-up for the log?
[00:26:51] But yeah, you just all lay there, put it across your chest, and do sit-ups.
[00:26:54] With it across your chest.
[00:26:55] With it across your chest.
[00:26:56] So let's think a little piece of work out equipment.
[00:26:58] It's a big piece of work out equipment.
[00:27:00] So do you ever, and if I thought it was you, you might even have said this,
[00:27:03] but I don't know, clarify it.
[00:27:05] So have you ever, do they ever say, hey, just bring this log, you guys?
[00:27:10] You know, like, if you're going to the, I don't know, what you're going to do.
[00:27:13] So you would meet for log-p to you.
[00:27:15] Okay, so it's a lot.
[00:27:16] So it's a lot.
[00:27:17] And then one for a while, they had a log that was called old misery.
[00:27:21] That was a lot.
[00:27:23] That sounds bad.
[00:27:24] Way thicker than the other logs.
[00:27:28] And so if your boat crew was doing bad, they'd give you old misery.
[00:27:32] And I guess now they have an even better log, which is it's a log,
[00:27:37] but it's cut up into pieces and tied together with a rope.
[00:27:41] Oh, yeah.
[00:27:43] So each piece, so they can tell who's put now and who's not.
[00:27:46] So you just, you know, you've got your 50 pound chunk or whatever.
[00:27:50] You know, if there's, if it's one continuous log,
[00:27:53] and I'm under it and you're under it and there's five other people under it,
[00:27:57] it's kind of hard to tell who's put now and who's not.
[00:27:59] Yeah.
[00:28:00] Yeah.
[00:28:01] That log that's all grown in the middle.
[00:28:02] Yeah.
[00:28:03] In the middle, you're kind of cruising, right?
[00:28:05] You can't be.
[00:28:06] You could be.
[00:28:07] You probably could be.
[00:28:08] So now they have this log that's cut up.
[00:28:11] Yeah.
[00:28:12] And yet attached.
[00:28:14] So let's see how you're looking now with that part of your log.
[00:28:17] It's sagging.
[00:28:18] Isn't that psychologically,
[00:28:21] but you know, it might do the opposite.
[00:28:23] Because psychologically, like if it's all one log and you kind of can't tell who's
[00:28:27] putting out and who's not, doesn't that kind of add to the team building experience
[00:28:32] where you kind of got to trust the guy?
[00:28:33] Yes.
[00:28:34] But let's say, they didn't have that log.
[00:28:37] They didn't have either one of those logs.
[00:28:38] When I went through, we didn't have old misery log and we didn't have this cut-up log.
[00:28:43] Yeah.
[00:28:44] But so I don't know.
[00:28:47] But you feel, you know, you should feel peer pressure to like lift.
[00:28:51] But let's say you were an instructor.
[00:28:53] Yeah.
[00:28:54] And you're watching this boat crew kind of, kind of fail.
[00:28:56] And you're wondering, hey, who in this boat crew is actually getting after it?
[00:29:01] Right.
[00:29:02] And who's not.
[00:29:03] Yeah.
[00:29:04] Hey, go grab this cut-up log.
[00:29:05] Yeah, we're going to say we're going to find out real quick.
[00:29:08] Yeah.
[00:29:09] That's the thing, man.
[00:29:10] That training makes you, it figures out what your weaknesses are.
[00:29:17] That's interesting because it's that really illustrates the two separate elements of
[00:29:22] buds and training and stuff where it's like the instructor's perspective and then the
[00:29:26] the, the user, the person, right?
[00:29:29] Is the candidate, what do you call the cadet?
[00:29:31] The cadet.
[00:29:32] Sure.
[00:29:33] That's legitimately called tadpoles.
[00:29:35] I got a baby frog.
[00:29:36] So it really clarifies that those did the difference in perspective because look, if I'm a little guy who's
[00:29:42] not very strong and I, and each one of our, and I'm, and we got the cut-up log and everybody and you know, you got,
[00:29:47] I don't know, how many guys in a year and a boat crew with other guys that are your same height or very similar.
[00:29:52] A couple inches difference.
[00:29:54] Okay.
[00:29:55] So let's say my strength is it strength.
[00:29:59] It's just, you're running.
[00:30:00] You're something like this, yeah, but now the functionality that is as a team kind of breaks down a little bit.
[00:30:07] A little bit.
[00:30:08] The user perspective.
[00:30:09] Here's the deal.
[00:30:10] If you're my swim buddy, you're my boat crew, we're together.
[00:30:12] I know you're a fast runner and I know that you're not that, as strong as you could be.
[00:30:17] But you're a good guy.
[00:30:18] Guess what?
[00:30:19] Come on man, we got this.
[00:30:20] Yeah.
[00:30:21] What if you're a turd?
[00:30:22] And I'm like, hey dude, you aren't putting out.
[00:30:26] So it does help develop, it helps identify people that aren't good teammates.
[00:30:34] Yeah.
[00:30:35] Because if you're a fast runner, you might be like, hey, juggle.
[00:30:37] You know, let's say I'm a slow runner.
[00:30:38] I'm stronger than you, but you're faster than me.
[00:30:40] Yeah.
[00:30:41] Hey juggle, I'll pay you on this run.
[00:30:43] And you help me, you push me.
[00:30:45] Right.
[00:30:46] That's the thing.
[00:30:47] You're going to have good days and bad days.
[00:30:49] Good days and bad days.
[00:30:50] You're also going to have strengths and weaknesses.
[00:30:52] Everyone is.
[00:30:53] Yeah.
[00:30:54] So there's no one.
[00:30:55] I'm trying to think.
[00:30:56] There's just about no one that goes through buds that just doesn't have any issues.
[00:31:02] Yeah.
[00:31:03] They're going to find because hey, you might be a really fast runner, but you get cold.
[00:31:07] You know, you might be really good at the obstacle course, but you get cold.
[00:31:14] You might be a really good swimmer, but you get cold.
[00:31:17] You see what I'm saying?
[00:31:18] They're going to find something.
[00:31:19] And the cold thing is funny because, but I think that's what makes a lot of people
[00:31:22] quit is just being cold and uncomfortable and miserable.
[00:31:26] Yeah.
[00:31:27] And that warmth.
[00:31:28] Yeah.
[00:31:29] That warmth.
[00:31:30] But it's so temporary.
[00:31:31] It's just freaking lie.
[00:31:32] Yeah.
[00:31:33] I can understand.
[00:31:35] But there's very few people that don't have a problem with some area of buds.
[00:31:42] They don't want, maybe that's strong.
[00:31:45] There's a decent amount of people that have that are like, oh, I was kind of okay and everything.
[00:31:50] Yeah.
[00:31:51] Okay.
[00:31:52] Believe me.
[00:31:53] I'm not trying to say it was good.
[00:31:54] I definitely wasn't great or anything.
[00:31:55] I definitely wasn't.
[00:31:56] But I was kind of okay.
[00:31:57] And there were some people that were more okay than me at everything.
[00:32:02] So there's people that kind of, but if you're really good, here's the, here's, I guess, where comes the if you're really good at one thing.
[00:32:08] Chances are you're not going to be really good at everything.
[00:32:12] There were some guys in my class that were really good at just about everything.
[00:32:16] They might have one or two things that they weren't great at, but they were usually pretty small.
[00:32:19] I mean, my honor man, a guy named Keith Camira, he was pretty much good at everything.
[00:32:23] He was a stud in the water, he was fast, he was awesome at the, of course, but I will say this.
[00:32:29] Even the, like the guys that were really good at everything, they would vary, they actually wouldn't be.
[00:32:35] They wouldn't be the best at something.
[00:32:38] They wouldn't be like, oh, this guy, we're going to win the runs by a record number.
[00:32:43] Or this guy's going to do the, oh course in a record number.
[00:32:47] There might be a guy that's just, hey, I swam in college and that guy's just going to crush the swims.
[00:32:52] Yeah, you know, where we, we're looking for him on the rug, so he's on the same.
[00:32:56] Right.
[00:32:57] But that's kind of what I'm saying with the cut-up log versus the full log.
[00:33:00] So it's like, hey, you're a good teammate.
[00:33:02] You want to pick up the slack for this guy and he's going to be, you can't pick up, it's hard to pick up the slack.
[00:33:07] On the cut-up log.
[00:33:08] Definitely harder.
[00:33:09] So I'm saying, so I look this poor guy who's great at swimming, great at running.
[00:33:13] And then, but he's this little skinnier or whatever. He's helpful.
[00:33:17] And he, if you got a full log, a connected log, it's like, hey, let's all do this together.
[00:33:23] I'm going to trust you to put out what you can.
[00:33:26] And that would be the standard occasionally.
[00:33:28] This is what I imagine triggered us because again, they didn't have this kind of log when I went through.
[00:33:33] What I think would trigger this is, you see a boat crew that's now yelling at each other.
[00:33:36] Now we got, now we got a problem.
[00:33:38] Let's see what's going on for real.
[00:33:40] Because a lot of times, not a lot of times.
[00:33:43] It can definitely happen that the guy that's yelling at everybody is the guy that's not put now.
[00:33:48] Yeah, yeah.
[00:33:50] It doesn't that kind of work both ways though.
[00:33:53] So like, yeah, if you got, what if I'm weak in the cut-up log?
[00:33:59] And I can't do these reps the way these other guys can.
[00:34:03] But if you're a good teammate versus a bad teammate, that's going to show regardless.
[00:34:09] If you're a bad teammate, put it this way.
[00:34:11] Because you see a guy and he's like, he's pointing it out as much as he can.
[00:34:14] He's physically weaker than everybody.
[00:34:16] And I start yelling at him.
[00:34:17] That's bad.
[00:34:18] You know, unless you're encouraging him.
[00:34:20] Here's the thing, I think that people get shit, get what's the jammed up.
[00:34:24] Damn it.
[00:34:25] Up during the jail training is good and then structured know this.
[00:34:29] Like, let's say you and I are in a boat crew, right?
[00:34:33] And we probably would have been in boat crew, because you're 5-11 on 5-11, right?
[00:34:36] So we're in a boat crew and you're sick, or you have cramps.
[00:34:42] Or maybe you're just not strong at, you know, maybe your neck is hurt.
[00:34:47] Yeah.
[00:34:48] And so we're getting told to do something and you can't do it.
[00:34:53] And you're like, I can't hold this boat on my head right now.
[00:34:56] I can't do this anymore, right?
[00:34:58] The instructors see that and they go over and they go, oh, you know what they start saying to you?
[00:35:02] You're holding back the team.
[00:35:04] Yeah.
[00:35:06] The team doesn't want you.
[00:35:08] You're going to make them lose.
[00:35:10] When they lose, they're going to get hammered by us.
[00:35:12] We're going to crush them.
[00:35:13] It's all going to be your fault.
[00:35:15] They're getting in that person's head and it works.
[00:35:18] And that person goes, my quit.
[00:35:21] I don't want to be a detriment to the team, right?
[00:35:24] So they quit.
[00:35:25] It's a lie.
[00:35:26] It's actually a lie.
[00:35:28] Because everyone, every one of those guys and buds,
[00:35:31] going to have a time where they're like, oh, this isn't my strength right now.
[00:35:34] And I need somebody help me with whatever.
[00:35:36] Maybe they got like heinous shit.
[00:35:38] There's just things are going to happen.
[00:35:40] And well, to a lot of people, to a lot of people, things are going to happen.
[00:35:45] Where they're feeling like, oh my God.
[00:35:48] I'm trying to think, I don't think I actually was ever in that bad of a situation during
[00:35:53] Buds, where I was like, got a carry me across the line or whatever.
[00:35:57] But I saw it happen to people.
[00:35:59] And sometimes they would get in those, and it was okay.
[00:36:02] You know, it's a man, don't worry.
[00:36:04] We got you.
[00:36:05] Hey, just hang on.
[00:36:07] Well, well, like someone's freezing all cut all around them to like, to like get them warm.
[00:36:12] Stuff like that, you know?
[00:36:13] That's what you're trying to do.
[00:36:14] Now if the person's a piece of shit, you're kind of like,
[00:36:17] Dude, you look a little jelly on there.
[00:36:19] It's just sort of like a little selection going on.
[00:36:22] There's a little class selection, even though it's not formal, like in Ranger School,
[00:36:25] they do peer evaluations.
[00:36:28] We have to rank everyone in the class and like the last person's getting dropped.
[00:36:31] If they got a couple times in a row, and I forget to actually rules because I never went through Ranger School.
[00:36:34] But if they rank Eccletrails, number 48, again, bottom of the list.
[00:36:39] Oh, there's Eccletrails again.
[00:36:41] We're getting rid of them.
[00:36:42] And so they actually rotate through them.
[00:36:44] Okay, rank me last this time, rank Eccletrails next time.
[00:36:47] And so that if you do it smart, if you work together, you can no one gets dropped.
[00:36:51] No one gets peered out.
[00:36:52] In seal training, they don't really have that except for what I'm just talking about,
[00:37:00] which is looking at a guy going, oh, we don't want to help him right now.
[00:37:05] Yeah.
[00:37:06] In his moment of weakness.
[00:37:07] It's handled internally.
[00:37:08] It's handled internally.
[00:37:10] All right, here we go.
[00:37:13] Let's get back to the book, Speaking of this, there's various tests.
[00:37:16] He talks about these tests that they have to pass that has a bunch of different components.
[00:37:21] It's got like a low crawl that you got to make.
[00:37:24] You got to do these monkey bars.
[00:37:25] You got to do this.
[00:37:27] This sprint jump over trenches type thing.
[00:37:30] There's a grenade throw.
[00:37:31] They got and then a mile run.
[00:37:32] So that they have a test that they have to pass to get out of this training company.
[00:37:38] And he talks about the various things and what would make people fail.
[00:37:42] But one of the things he said is he says to succeed in the mile run,
[00:37:45] you obviously needed endurance, but you also needed problem solving ability.
[00:37:49] At the beginning, some of the men would sprint as if they were running 100 yard dashes.
[00:37:53] It's causing them to become out of breath and tired.
[00:37:55] They would slow down and struggle for the rest of the mile.
[00:37:57] They couldn't grasp or apply what the sergeants told them about the need to maintain a steady pace throughout the entire mile.
[00:38:05] For most of the men in special training company passing the test was impossible.
[00:38:10] Their low mental capacity doomed them to failure.
[00:38:13] They could never pass.
[00:38:15] Under military rules, they were supposed to stay at special training until they passed all requirements for graduation from basic.
[00:38:23] So what was going to happen to them?
[00:38:25] Would the army keep them in the company until their service time came to an end?
[00:38:30] Or would they be discharged and sent home?
[00:38:32] Or horrible to imagine, would there be cheating?
[00:38:36] Of the kind that Captain Bosch had used in Bravo Company to send them on to Vietnam?
[00:38:42] So you got this special training company in order to get out of there.
[00:38:45] You got to pass the basic requirements to get out of basic training.
[00:38:48] And then you can go back to your company and complete.
[00:38:51] And we already got an example of Captain Bosch.
[00:38:53] I was like, oh, we're going to get rid of some of these guys.
[00:38:55] And there's another incident that he talked about where there's various forms of cheating that they did to get someone a better PT score.
[00:39:02] Get someone to pass a test.
[00:39:04] So that's happening.
[00:39:05] Again, it's unintended consequence of this whole training program.
[00:39:09] Yeah.
[00:39:14] He says here, while most of the men did poorly on the PT test because they were limited mentally,
[00:39:19] this was not the case with Charles Lassner, who is very intelligent but two week and clumsy to pass.
[00:39:25] He was about six one, had long spindly legs and he was unable to jump across the ditch and the run and dodged jump.
[00:39:31] When he ran through the course, he took short dainty steps and he was too uncordinated to make the leap.
[00:39:37] There was something about Lassner that elicited fierce hatred from the sergeants.
[00:39:41] They hounded him constantly calling him a queer and a pansy.
[00:39:45] During the training day, he was screamed out more than anyone else.
[00:39:47] And in the evenings, he was always given log drills as punishment.
[00:39:51] Finally, he couldn't take it anymore.
[00:39:52] At lunchtime one day, he sat on his bunk and declined to fall out for afternoon formation.
[00:39:57] I tried to coax him into getting up, but he said, I can't take any more of this shit.
[00:40:01] He seemed deeply depressed.
[00:40:03] A sergeant appeared in order to join the company, but he refused.
[00:40:07] The sergeant fetched the company commander, Captain Brown, who gave him a direct order to get off the bunk,
[00:40:11] and joined the company on the PT field.
[00:40:14] Again, Lassner refused the MPs were summoned, and they arrested him and took him to the stock aid we never saw him again.
[00:40:21] I later heard that he was court-martialed and sentenced to four years hard labor in the military prison at Fort Leavenworth, Kansas.
[00:40:31] Lassner's refusal to train must have caught the attention of high-ranking officers at Fort Benning,
[00:40:39] because a few days after the event of full-bird Colonel visited the company.
[00:40:44] Captain Brown assembled us in front of the Colonel and said that we were fortunate to have him with us,
[00:40:49] because he was a combat veteran of World War II, and he had important things to say to us.
[00:40:54] The Colonel proceeded to give us a motivational talk. He was a white-haired, distinguished-looking officer, and he seemed sincere and concerned.
[00:41:03] Without making any reference to Lassner's deed, he exorbed us to fulfill our duties and fight to guarantee the liberties enjoyed by our families and friends.
[00:41:12] Our nation was involved in a conflict between the forces of freedom and the forces of darkness.
[00:41:18] In city, as totalitarian, communist wanted to enslave us and trample upon our rights, we must be strong men, obedient men,
[00:41:26] and we must be willing to sacrifice like Washington's troops did at Valley Forge in the darkest days of the Revolutionary War,
[00:41:33] or like Eisenhower troops did on the beaches of Normandy.
[00:41:39] He continued in this vein, and as he spoke, I glanced at the men near me.
[00:41:44] They were looking at the speaker respectfully, but I knew that most of them were not comprehending his concepts.
[00:41:50] It was a bit comical, as well as a bit sad.
[00:41:53] Here was a well-meaning World War II veteran who seemed unaware of the intelligence level of most of his listeners,
[00:41:59] talking about patriotism and other abstractions to men who had no idea of what he was talking about.
[00:42:06] I probably should have covered there's just so many incidents that he covers in here that kind of identifies the mental capacity of the people that he's dealing with.
[00:42:24] That's one example, but there's really other obvious ones.
[00:42:28] He talked about not being able to tell you that you're not being able to read and write.
[00:42:31] They're just don't have the cognitive capacity to do this stuff.
[00:42:38] And that was sort of the crux of it.
[00:42:42] This World War II veteran coming down and delivering this eloquent speech that the guys just don't understand it.
[00:42:49] Just doesn't mean anything to them.
[00:42:54] Fast forward a little bit. He says after a few weeks, it's special training.
[00:42:57] I took the final PT test and passed it easily. I was recycled to a new company where I picked up where I'd left off with Bravo Company.
[00:43:04] I finished basic training with my new company and then I went to US Army Intelligence School.
[00:43:08] While I was there, I happened to run into a man who had been at special training as a convalescent while he recuperated from a hand-in-st injury.
[00:43:15] He informed me that all of the men I had known at special training had been, quote, administratively past and quote,
[00:43:23] and sent on to advanced training. He said that the company commander had been ordered to certify that the men were malingers who could have passed the final test if they truly wanted to.
[00:43:38] Just to give you a little bit more of his story says after intelligence school, I went to Vietnam,
[00:43:42] but I had no contact with project 100,000 men because I served as an Army Intelligence agent.
[00:43:48] Wearing civilian clothes and using a fake name, I posted a journalist and worked on a team that recruited and trained agents for espionage missions in Cambodia,
[00:43:56] a country from which communist forces launched attacks on American forces,
[00:44:00] while as in Vietnam, I continued to write letters to members of Congress.
[00:44:04] And I had one moment of success. He started writing letters to Congress and, hey, these guys do not should not be in the military,
[00:44:12] and they definitely shouldn't be sent to combat. He says,
[00:44:15] and a to Robert Cender Robert Kennedy wrote me that he was moved by my descriptions of the low IQ men was urging the Senate to hold a hearing on project 100,000.
[00:44:25] I eagerly watched the mail for a letter detailing plans by Senator Kennedy,
[00:44:30] but one morning in June 1968 I heard news that Kennedy had been assassinated. I suspect that my only chance for congressional action had died with the Senator. I was correct.
[00:44:42] A few years after the war ended, I arranged to get a computer print out listing all the names of Americans who died in Vietnam.
[00:44:48] I skimmed the list looking for the last names that matched the names of men I had known at before bending.
[00:44:54] Unfortunately, the death list included the names of two men I had known at special training company, Ernesto, Lizano, and Freddie Hensley.
[00:45:04] Lizano was a man I didn't know very well. The only thing I remembered about him was that some of the sergeants had given him the nickname, Retardo.
[00:45:13] Freddie Hensley, of course, I knew well. I was not surprised to discover that he had been killed in combat with his good looks. He probably was assumed to be normal.
[00:45:22] And moved along to Vietnam and sent out the field and I didn't cover that part, but Freddie Hensley was a guy that looked very, like a handsome guy, normal looking guy, and but he was just, he just wasn't very intellectually capable.
[00:45:37] He says, Freddie's death hit me hard. I remembered how he was always signed, an indication of the tremendous anxiety he experienced in special training.
[00:45:46] I remembered how he lacked the mental quickness to qualify with the M14 rifle. I felt enormous anger, which I still feel decades later. He never should have been drafted.
[00:45:56] He never should have been administratively pasted special training. He never should have been sent in a combat.
[00:46:05] Grasping at straws, I got to thinking that maybe there was another man named Freddie Hensley who died, so I tried to find his family by telephoning people in his hometown with the last name, the same last name.
[00:46:16] I eventually made contact with his mother and ascertained that Freddie, the Freddie I had known, was indeed the man who died in Vietnam.
[00:46:25] I told her that I had been Freddie's friend at Fort Benning. She said that she and the family were proud that Freddie had given his life to defend his country.
[00:46:35] As we talked, I carefully introduced my belief that Freddie should not have been sent into combat.
[00:46:41] Before long, she was expressing grief and anger and bewilderment. She told me that when Freddie received his draft notice, she and other family members went to the induction center,
[00:46:54] and explained that Freddie had been an EMR, edgicable, mentally retarded, classes at school, and had not been able to drive a car, and that it was a mistake to draft him.
[00:47:08] In response to Drill Sergeant Reassured, the family that Freddie would not be put into danger, he would just do menial jobs such as sweeping floors and peeling potatoes.
[00:47:19] He was a good boy, she said, when he was little, we used to go everywhere together, he was my little man. She began to sob and she lamented, why did they have to draft him? I want to know why.
[00:47:37] So now we get into the part of the book that answers that question, why, why was this happening? The sections about project 100,000, and it gets some really interesting information.
[00:47:52] I usually, when we have Vietnam guys on here, I always probe this area of, what was it like? What was the protest like? I've never had anybody talk too deeply about, hey, this was this dynamic environment, this polarizer.
[00:48:10] I don't really, it seems like because there wasn't social media because there wasn't 24-hour news cycle, if you lived in Ohio, and you were going to join the army, you only saw the other people in Ohio, and probably the people that you hung out with were like, yeah, well, you're joining the army, you're from Ohio and where Americans are, we're joining the army, oh, you got drafted cool.
[00:48:31] It was like, it seems like there was less connection, but it's interesting to hear some of these statistics that he talks about here and the way they saw looked and the way they saw washed out.
[00:48:42] And the other thing is we have guys that either got drafted and said Roger that or they joined up either way.
[00:48:51] So, here we go, yes, the majority of Americans who served in Vietnam were technically volunteers. Some were indeed true volunteers, such as the idealistic patriotic youths described.
[00:49:05] But most of them volunteered only because of the way the draft was carried out. Local draft boards or military recruiters told them that they were likely to be drafted soon and they had two choices.
[00:49:16] It's submit to the draft and serve two years, probably in combat or they could volunteer and serve three years in non-combat MOS, which is a military occupational specialty like mechanic cook or computer programmer.
[00:49:32] Most men chose the second, say for option, because the vast majority of them would never have enlisted if the draft had not been in place, but in place it would be more accurate to call them draft induced volunteers.
[00:49:47] And he says, I was in another category, which I called draft influenced volunteer. My local draft board put me on a list of possible drafts, but my family doctor told me without any prompting on my part that I could,
[00:49:59] that I could avoid the draft, if you wrote a letter to the draft board, about a pre-existing medical condition.
[00:50:06] Hyper-fioratism. I declined his offer because the draft boards interest in me woke out of my, woke me out of my adolescent days and forced me to take a hard look at the issues.
[00:50:17] Because I was a strong believer in America's fight against communism, I decided that it was my patriotic duty to serve, so I signed up for three years in the army with a promise of an interesting assignment, military intelligence.
[00:50:29] But I make no claim to be a hero, I did not volunteer for infantry. So there's got people getting drafted, you got people getting told, hey, you're gonna get drafted bro, you might just, so they never would have enlisted voluntarily.
[00:50:43] I know, yeah, he volunteered. Hey, echo, you can need a volunteer or you can possibly take this job over here, what's going to get you in the combat.
[00:50:51] And if you don't want to go to combat, well, you're gonna, you're gonna sign up. So it's draft induced draft influenced some different things that happen.
[00:51:01] And so I run some numbers here, he says, during the major years of the Vietnam era, 1964 to 1973, there were 26,800,000 draft age American males, 68% of whom never had to serve in the military.
[00:51:16] They were excused because they were students or fathers or had physical limitations of some or some other disqualifying status.
[00:51:23] So the whole freaking thing, I used to wander, I mean, when I was younger, well, why is going to college? How, how does that get you out of military service?
[00:51:35] I don't get that, right? How does that work? Wait, you're going to college and now you can't go fight, why can't you fight?
[00:51:43] And then it doesn't take much thinking to realize, oh, because my parents have money, they send me to college now and have to go fight.
[00:51:50] And you mentioned it earlier too, right, where that'll kind of make the general society unhappy, where it's like, hey, these are like, they have important roles in our society, because they're educated and all this stuff.
[00:52:06] Yeah, so if you set them to war, we don't have these people.
[00:52:10] And also the middle class, so the middle class kids are going to college. So if you don't want to piss off the middle class parents, who are the ones that vote, what do you do? You say, hey, don't worry, don't worry about Johnny, as long as he's going to college isn't have to worry about signing up for the draft.
[00:52:25] Imagine back then, there's less people in college as well. Yeah, I'll tell the Vietnam War character often they find out they can get out of the draft and they're not letting it out. He said that left 30% to fill the ranks.
[00:52:41] Some signed up for Hazard's duty, but the majority managed to steer clear of the battlefield by going to the National Guard or Reserves, which in the Vietnam War were rarely used for combat, or by signing up for non combat positions in the Army Air Force Navy or Coast Guard.
[00:52:55] Some men spent their entire service in their entire service time in non lethal lokal such as the US, Germany, Korea and the Panama Canal zone.
[00:53:07] So you could have enlisted and got any, any of these non-combat jobs. Ultimately, out of every 100 American males of draft age in the Vietnam area, era, only 12% of Vietnam.
[00:53:21] Of these 12 men, nine had non-combat support roles, but weren't entirely risk-free. They were potential targets of rocket, booby traps, terrorist attacks, mortars. The remaining three men.
[00:53:35] So out of 100 were down to three, the remaining three men served under fire in one of the following high risk situations. Fighting in one of the hardcore combat arms of the Army or Marine Corps infantry, artillery, army special operations, close air support, to serving in the dangerous positions in the Air Force Navy or Coast Guard such as combat aviators or patrol boat warriors, or three, trying to save lives in one of the most vulnerable of all battlefields.
[00:54:04] So overall battlefield jobs combat medic.
[00:54:09] While a few men were eager for combat, most were not Tony's any of Vietnam veterans who later became a forced arm general in the Marine Corps said it was hard to find Americans who actually chose and defyting Vietnam.
[00:54:21] Most who served there had to be forced to go.
[00:54:27] So that's what we're dealing with. 28 million, 26 million people that are draft, 26 million men that were draft age. 68% never, they were, they were disqualified because they were students or physical limitations or fathers or some of the disqualifying status.
[00:54:45] Then you end up with a bunch of them that joined the National Guard or the Reserves which during Vietnam was kind of a way out of going to Vietnam. Then you got guys that joined in the non-combat role and eventually you get down to that small percentage of people that stepped up to fight.
[00:55:01] There's a section here called avoidance. During the Vietnam war, almost all of the nation's affluent youth and a majority of the middle class escape the draft by going to college or claiming a disability or exemption.
[00:55:14] A University of Notre Dame study estimated that 75% of excused men had actively tried to avoid the draft. Throughout the war years, many loopholes were available. One of the most famous cases involved actor George Hamilton who persuaded his draft board to give him a hard ship deferment because he was the sole support of his mother who lived in his Hollywood mansion and relied on his $200,000 annual income.
[00:55:40] Which would be $1.375 million in today's dollars. Men insert an occupation such as engineers, farmers, teachers, ministers and divinity students, one automatic exemptions.
[00:55:51] Fatherhood would could win a deferral. So a number of young men felt pressured to get married and start a family.
[00:55:58] He has a little section here talking about peace children, which are basically guys that had kids so they didn't have to go to war.
[00:56:05] A popular way to avoid the draft was to find a doctor who would attest to a medical problem such as flat feet, extreme allergies or skin rashes.
[00:56:13] While he was a student at Harvard, writer James Fowlo's recalled sympathetic medical students helped us in helps us search for disqualifying conditions that we and are many good years of good health might have overlooked.
[00:56:26] For $120 a young man could purchase a psychological disqualification. There are reputable anti-war psychiatrist who will put one through a series of personality test to find some tendencies they can distort and quote.
[00:56:42] That's from a Harvard graduate undergraduate.
[00:56:47] Having a letter from a doctor was a sure way to win a medical exemption. For example, the induction center in Seattle, Washington divided men into two groups. Those who had letters from doctors and those that did not.
[00:56:58] Everyone with a letter got an exemption no matter what the letter said.
[00:57:02] The induction center has really had the time to contest what an outside expert said using letters demonstrated the advantages held by middle class men who had easy access to sympathetic physician working class and poor men either had no such access or they were unaware that a doctor's letter was an option.
[00:57:23] Some men gained disqualifications by contriving to fail their pre-induction physical exams. A university of Michigan student ate three large peaches each night for six months so that he exceeded the military's weight limit for his height.
[00:57:35] He was disqualified. Some men jab their arms with needles to pass themselves off as heroin addicts.
[00:57:41] He goes on talking about people that were getting or getting braces. I guess you weren't allowed to have braces so we'd get people dentists would charge a thousand a two thousand dollars which in today's money is between seven and fourteen thousand dollars to get braces put on. So now you don't get drafted.
[00:57:56] I didn't neighbor.
[00:57:57] I told you this before. I didn't neighbor who she was older lady. I was like our neighbors mom or whatever. She said her brother.
[00:58:10] Dodge the draft by drinking soy sauce in gaining high blood pressure.
[00:58:13] I was like a thing like and other people like his friends or whatever would do that as well.
[00:58:27] But blood pressure is like that seems like something you can just sort of cure with like even like the weight thing. It's like proud just lose weight or whatever.
[00:58:41] I was like, you know, you know, you're just a little bit like okay so I went to the doctor coincidentally to that just to get you know check up normal stuff and they take your blood pressure and the doctor said there's a thing called white coat syndrome.
[00:58:55] I never did either until today and I was like, oh, what is that? It's like people's blood pressure will rise because they're just because they're nervous and the doctor's office. That's how blood pressure is. So now I'm thinking back.
[00:59:07] I mean, you can I mean, you should braces, but these are some really low standard medical exemption scenarios. Nope. So in one hand, the bars really low. Well, that's the thing it's going to get lower. But I'll kind of high in a way is what I'm saying. Yeah, this is early though, right. This is this is also this is also.
[00:59:28] They didn't they didn't lower this part of the bar, right? They lower the other parts of the bar. Right. So they made it so that some rich or middle class person that access to a to a freaking dentist and the money to pay for braces could all of a sudden get exempt.
[00:59:48] But if you don't know about that little trick because you're from some place it doesn't have that kind of access or doesn't have that kind of money or doesn't have that kind of information.
[00:59:58] But no Google. How do I get out of the draft?
[01:00:01] It's a lot of that right in a way. I mean, that's a that's a spectrum to where like isn't that like a typical thing people might say about the criminal justice, right where it's like.
[01:00:14] You know, for the good lawyer kind of thing. Yeah, good lawyer makes it a good lawyer. Good lawyer. It makes a huge difference. A huge difference.
[01:00:24] A few of access to that good lawyer as opposed to not having access to a good lawyer either because they you don't know about it or because you don't have the money for it. Yeah, for 100%.
[01:00:40] Check this out. Professional football players were virtually immune to being drafted.
[01:00:46] In 1966, selective service grabbed the only two of 960 pro players, many of the West finding refuge in the national guard or reserves.
[01:00:57] We have an arrangement with the Baltimore Colts major general George Gelsen Jr. of the Maryland National Guard said in 1966, when they have a player with a military problem, they send him to us.
[01:01:09] And quote, the Dallas Cowboys had 10 players assigned to the same national guard division at one time. This is a freaking scam.
[01:01:17] The most sensational football star of the era, the New York Jets quarterback Joe Nameth was excused from service on grounds that his frequently injured knees made him unfit for combat.
[01:01:30] Yet he continued to play bone crushing football on Sunday afternoons, by the way, three years after that he won the Super Bowl.
[01:01:38] And if a young man refused to submit to the draft, he was a he was subject to arrest and imprisonment to escape this fate over 40,000 American youths fled to countries that were willing to give them asylum, including Canada, Sweden and France.
[01:01:52] About 171,000 men refused to submit to the draft because they were conscientious objectives whose religious or moral beliefs forbade them to kill in any war or in the case of Vietnam war.
[01:02:05] A war they considered unjust. Some of them were excused by local draft boards while about 96,000 agreed to alternative service in jobs such as medics.
[01:02:16] An estimated 4,000 conscience to subjectors were given long prison terms usually five years.
[01:02:26] Yeah, and what's jacked up about that is if you're if you're honest and say look I don't want to go fight because I don't believe in the war. You're going to jail meanwhile someone that's getting braces is like clear.
[01:02:38] Some draft of orders felt remorse over their actions when he was 66 years old film and TV actor John Liffgow revealed that while he was in his 20s he won a disqualification by wearing urine soap clothes and pretending to be insane during a pre-induction interview.
[01:02:53] A sense of shame he said stay with me for years and has never entirely disappeared. Some of that shame had to do with the appalling suffering caused by the Vietnam war suffering that I so conveniently avoided.
[01:03:08] An novelist Mark Helperon in an address at West Point in 1992 told the cadets that during the Vietnam war I dodged the draft and I was wrong. This is regret that I will carry to my grave.
[01:03:22] Former Vice President Dick Cheney who spent the war in college and graduate school sought and received five deferments from his draft board.
[01:03:31] Forced student deferments and one hardship deferment even though he was pro war. That's freaking unique isn't it?
[01:03:40] I'm pro war just not for me. Years later when he was one of the prime architects of the war in Iraq and was accused of being a hypocrite for sending thousands of men in the combat he justified his Vietnam Arab behavior in this way quote.
[01:03:53] I had other priorities in the 60s in military service. I don't regret the decisions I made and quote.
[01:03:59] Hmm. Okay.
[01:04:04] You don't regret the decisions you made. Got it. They're Dick.
[01:04:09] Reacting to comments by Cheney and other successful politicians Paul Marks a drafty in the Korean war wrote the Baltimore Sun quote for every draft of the voider.
[01:04:19] Someone else who's made to serve in order to meet the military's quotas that someone else might very well have been killed in Vietnam.
[01:04:31] Many of America's most accomplished young men were ready to pass the buck and let someone else someone less sophisticated and knowledgeable make this sacrifice as well. They pursued their personal ambitions and quote.
[01:04:42] Joining the National Guard of Reserves was a popular option because relatively few guardsmen are reserved as were sent to Vietnam.
[01:04:49] Again, this is totally different now. And National Garden Reserve were deployed all the time in Iraq and Afghanistan.
[01:04:58] Out of every one million men who enlist in the National Guard and reserves during the Vietnam era only 15,000 of them actually served in Vietnam.
[01:05:07] That's a tiny percentage. Alan Vaneman who served in a combat artillery unit in Vietnam in 1968, 1969 said,
[01:05:14] I trained with several hundred country boys from Louisiana and Alabama who were bound for National Guard units.
[01:05:20] They were as they briefly put it, NG, not going.
[01:05:31] Some men who avoided the draft would later become prominent leaders such as Bill Clinton and Mitt Romney.
[01:05:38] But in fairness, it should be noted that a few young men who later became National Leaders served in Vietnam and risked their lives.
[01:05:44] For example, three men who were members of US Senate at the same time, Chuck Hagle, John Kerry and John McCain were decorated heroes of combat Vietnam.
[01:05:57] It says here, although some affluent men suffered in Vietnam, the typical infantry platoon was made up of minorities, the poor and the working class with a sprinkling of middle class youth.
[01:06:09] San Antonio lawyer, Mori Maverick Jr., recalled that during the war, my friend at the local office of the American Friends Service Committee placed across on the map of San Antonio at the home address of each person killed in combat.
[01:06:23] On the west side where the Mexican Americans lived, there was a sea of crosses.
[01:06:28] In Alamo Heights, almost park and tarry hills where the rich people lived, there were virtually no crosses at all.
[01:06:39] Most of America's privilege-delete seemed unbothered by the unfair burden placed on men on the lower rungs of society, but there were some leaders who were angry and indigged it.
[01:06:51] In 1966, Kingman Bruster, the president of Yale University, used his address to the graduating seniors to denounce a system that had drafted, quote,
[01:07:01] only those who cannot hide in the endless catacombs of formal education.
[01:07:10] So, yeah, that's friggin'.
[01:07:14] Just, this is y'all, figure this shit.
[01:07:22] This is going into McNamara's plan.
[01:07:26] The year is 1966 was crunch time for the American military because so many middle-class American males were avoiding the draft military face the prospect of serious manpower shortages.
[01:07:36] Because most of the men did not volunteer to extend their tour of duty, thousands of fresh troops had to be deployed to Vietnam every month through a place the thousands that were departing.
[01:07:46] To supply extra troops that were urgently needed President Johnson was faced with a tough choice.
[01:07:52] Here you go, President Johnson.
[01:07:54] He could have revoked student deferments and forced thousands of college boys into the army, or he could have used the one million men in the National Garden Reserves.
[01:08:03] But either action would have angered the vote-powerful middle-class, so instead he turned to the working class and the poor.
[01:08:13] Got a shit bird.
[01:08:15] Here, however, you also found trouble rounding up enough eligible men.
[01:08:20] There are plenty of men of the right age in the poorer neighborhoods, but many of them have flunked the military's entrance exam.
[01:08:27] The Armed Forces qualification test, that's what I kicked the podcast off with.
[01:08:30] Johnson and Defense Secretary McNamara desperately needed them, however, so they lowered the standards for passing the AFQT.
[01:08:37] Suddenly, thousands of low aptitude men once declared unacceptable because of low AFQT stores scores when else subject to the draft.
[01:08:44] Johnson and McNamara tried to make their action appear to be based on humanitarian compassion.
[01:08:50] With much fanfare at the 1966 Natural Convention of the Veterans of Foreign Wars, McNamara unveiled his plan to salvage and rehabilitate a new world.
[01:08:59] Re-evalitate 100,000 substandard men each year hence the official title project 100,000.
[01:09:07] Though the man may have failed in these subjects in school, they wouldn't fail now because the military was, quote,
[01:09:14] The World's greatest educator of skilled manpower.
[01:09:19] And quote, McNamara once considered one of the most brilliant men in America.
[01:09:24] He had made a name for himself as one of the WIS kids who revitalized Ford Motor Company, believed that he could raise the intelligence of low ability men through a use of video tapes and close circuit TV lessons.
[01:09:37] Quote, an aloe aptitude student can use video tapes as an aid to his formal instruction and end by becoming as proficient as a high aptitude student and quote.
[01:09:52] In his story, I'd believe that video tapes could dramatically transform slow learners.
[01:09:58] McNamara was revealing the same blind faith in the power of technology that diluted him into thinking that he could outsmart the enemy in Vietnam by using calculators computers in statistical analysis.
[01:10:09] According to biographer Deborah Shapley, McNamara was, quote, a naive believer in technological mirrors, miracles and quote.
[01:10:18] An announcing project 100,000 McNamara never said a word about combat to hear him what a would have thought men were going not off the war but off the school.
[01:10:27] In his view, the military was doing them a favor when they got out of the service they would have valuable skills and self-confidence with which they could get good paying jobs in the civilian market.
[01:10:37] It's leading advocate leading advocate of this program.
[01:10:40] Daniel Patrick Moynihan, a sociologist who later became a US senator from New York who's argument went like this. The best way to solve poverty in America is to draft the hundreds of thousands of young men being rejected annually as unfit for military service.
[01:10:53] Take inner city blacks and poor rural whites both groups tending to be lazy and fond of booze and put them into uniform.
[01:11:01] Real discipline trained them to bathe daily, salute and take orders teach them a marketable skill at the end of the couple years you'll have transformed lazy unmotivated slackers into hard working law biding citizens.
[01:11:17] Shits unbelievable, right?
[01:11:20] Now there was push back. There was push back from the uniformed military. So you got Mac and Mara who's the secretary defense, you know, he's a civilian but he's presenting this great plan and the leadership inside the military was going hey this shitting and work.
[01:11:45] And Mac and Mara tells Johnson Mac and Mara told Johnson that uniformed officers in the defense department were opposed to drafting low apt to men because quote, they don't want to be in the business of dealing with morons and moron camps.
[01:11:57] The army doesn't want to be thought of as a rehabilitation agency and a quote.
[01:12:02] But Mac and Mara who's a fucking arrogant guy and thinks he's smart just pushes this program anyways.
[01:12:12] Between October 1st in 1966 and December 31st 1971, which is the day to the official program project 100,000, took in some 354,000 men 91% of them based on lowered mental standards, they're remaining 9% because of left's less stringent physical standards.
[01:12:32] 100,000 men were on average 20 years old. Half came from the south 41% were minorities. Some 46% were drafties while the remaining 54% were volunteers.
[01:12:44] However, as I pointed out earlier, the term volunteers misleading military recruiters would get the names of low scoring men who were now acceptable to the armed forces and visit them to steer them toward the three year hitch.
[01:12:56] The recruiters would tell them if they waited for the draft they'd only served two years but almost certainly end up in an infantry tune and be a non.
[01:13:06] But if they signed up for three years they would be assigned to a non-combat job. There was however a big catch. The military did not have to honor any oral promises made by a recruiter.
[01:13:18] A recruiter might promise a man a job like helicopter maintenance. But after basic training, when it was time to go to a specialized school, the military could decide that his test scores were not high enough to call, call a fight for helicopter maintenance or in some cases he could be sent to helicopter maintenance school. And if he flanked during training, he would subject to transfer to infantry.
[01:13:37] Thousands of three year projects, 100,000 volunteers ended up in infantry because of this catch, many critics denounce this fraudulent behavior.
[01:13:48] Project 100,000 men were assigned to all major branches of the armed forces, 71% of the army, 10% of the Marine Corps, 10% of the Navy, 99% of the Air Force.
[01:14:01] It brings me back to that one book. All this stuff is going on. All these people avoiding, we covered that one book called Company Commander and the guys going through Army O.C. Army Officer Cannon at school and they're like, where do you want to go?
[01:14:11] I think it was, I think that's what book it was. I think it was the book Company Commander. But you have to write down your three choices of where you want to get stationed here right there for two commander infantry commander infantry commander.
[01:14:20] God. And all these other people just avoiding fighting. It's hard for me just straight up to understand the perspective.
[01:14:32] Like when I read this and I read that all these 68% of people avoided the draft like I read that it doesn't it's hard for me to compute that it's hard for me to compute like being a man and being like,
[01:14:47] Oh, a bunch of people are going to go fight a war. I'm going to hide over here. It's hard for me to compute that. I got to be honest with you.
[01:14:54] Yeah, that makes sense to me that it be hard for me to understand it. What kind of human you have to be. Now, if you're like, hey, actively saying, look, I don't believe in this war. I actually get that. I actually get that. If someone says,
[01:15:10] Listen, we shouldn't be over there fighting and I'm not going. And you want to send me to jail, send me to jail. You want to you want to make me serve in some other capacity. Okay, but I'm not going to go fight that war.
[01:15:20] If you do that, I respect you. Right. If you hide and get braces and get a letter from a psychologist.
[01:15:29] Yeah. And that's what you do. No, I cannot believe that the numbers are that high. It's crazy. Yeah, and being in your presence for a long time and kind of reading this book with you, that makes sense.
[01:15:44] But if you think back to, let's say a 20 year old person who isn't like you, like maybe maybe maybe they do have my maybe their middle class and they got normal stuff, quote,
[01:15:57] I'm quote, normal stuff went on. They're not really into politics or history or nothing like that. They're just into normal stuff.
[01:16:03] And then they hear on the news. Yeah. Hey, there's a war going on.
[01:16:09] And you know what, you don't have the choice. You have to fight it. It was a bad one of the military. Like that was never my plan. That was never nothing.
[01:16:17] In fact, I don't want to just be a doctor. Well, that's a good point. And the good point, the great point that you're making is a point that I've actually making a lot lately.
[01:16:26] And I talked about it when I was on with Rogan, which is when you impose something on someone they rejected. So that's a great example.
[01:16:33] You impose the draft on people. They're going to get freaking pissed off. They're going to get nervous. They're going to run away from it. So that's a good point.
[01:16:40] And when I take that into account, then I understand it better. So thank you for helping me understand a little bit better when someone says, hey, you're going to war.
[01:16:47] And that's not part of your thing. You kind of think, wait a second. I'm not going to war. Where is the dentist? I need some braces over here.
[01:16:55] But even with that being said, so I understand that's a good point. But even that being said, the fact that the numbers are that large that it was a thing to go get braces.
[01:17:06] That it was a thing that people were right in home from college going, don't worry, mom, I got to get a letter from a psychologist.
[01:17:11] We have to pay under $25. No, write up a report of that was a thing. It wasn't like a rare case.
[01:17:17] Yeah, but even then, again, from our perspective when it's done with and you know, when things kind of sort themselves out like that makes sense for sure, just to maybe have trouble seeing that.
[01:17:31] But again, think about how it was probably like for anything like, hey, what if your neighbor, what if hey, look, I grew up on, you know, fifth street and proud.
[01:17:41] We're not into politics. We're into, we play baseball. And yeah, I heard about this quote unquote war. I don't know anyone in the military.
[01:17:49] I don't know anyone. Not one single person. In fact, I just heard of, you know, my neighbors cousin that lives in the other side of the country went to the military.
[01:17:57] I don't know anyone in the military. I want to be a dentist. I want to be a lawyer and you know, I want to be a fireman.
[01:18:06] And that's the culture and then it's like, oh my gosh, you know, you hear it on the news, you get in the mail, whatever. You're, you got a register for the draft, which is this.
[01:18:14] You have to go in the military and you got to go fight this word that you don't know anything about, you don't know anything in military.
[01:18:20] And now you have to do it. Otherwise, you go to jail. So, and it's like, damn, now I got to risk my life for something I don't really know about, not necessarily that I'm against or for nothing like that. I just don't really know about it.
[01:18:31] 18 years old, I don't know what that can stuff for you now. And then your neighbor goes and say, hey, I can't go. My I got flat feet. I'm like, oh wait, do I have flat, I don't even know if I have flat feet. Let me go in the doctor or whatever.
[01:18:43] You see what up. Oh, this guy, oh, I had braces. I don't what, oh, let me go see if I need some braces because I don't want to go either none of us want to go. We never did.
[01:18:51] Now, and all I have to do is, you know, and then you start to just get that culture where it's not shameful to go get braces. Yeah, well, that's a big piece of it. That's those are all great points and it's your, your right and imposing things on people.
[01:19:05] And just like this, just like imposing the draft, that's why people is like, don't you think everyone should serve in the military? I was generally think, not really because when you start imposing things on people, hey, would it be good? Yes.
[01:19:17] Would it be good to do some kind of service? Would it be good to understand what it's like to be in the military or go overseas? And to, yes, that was stuff would all be great. But when you start imposing things on people, so you're right.
[01:19:27] I guess I was having a little bit of an allergic reaction to this.
[01:19:30] Is that an a little bit of a maybe a lot of an allergic reaction? Well, that's a bite, right?
[01:19:35] Uh, um, it's a curse of knowledge or something where you can't, I don't know.
[01:19:40] Yeah, and I guess it's also, I guess what makes me most frustrated is that it's like the entire chain of command, right? You got Lyndon Johnson, the president, you got the second and they're all making these moves that are based on helping people.
[01:19:54] Hey, well, we're not going to, you know, you go to college. It's all a scam.
[01:19:58] Yeah, that's what's pissing me off. I guess more than anything else is that it's a scam.
[01:20:01] And the other thing is, if you, if you are going to go to war, right? You, you should be able to explain why we're going to war.
[01:20:09] And the people should be able to say, yeah, that actually makes sense. And then you go to war and you realize that people are going to get killed and you're realizing to kill some bad people and you realize that some civilians are going to die as well.
[01:20:19] All those things. Talk about that stuff all the time. All that stuff is going to happen.
[01:20:23] And also, if you say, hey, here's, we're going to war and you cannot explain why and the top of this goes, hey, dude, what are we doing going, and as soon as you got people going, hey, right?
[01:20:32] I'm going to go get freaking, uh, going to go piss on myself. So I don't have to go. And now you got a whole group, a whole class of people that are saying, we don't want to fight.
[01:20:41] Maybe we should reconsider what, what we're doing there. Because that's a problem.
[01:20:45] You know, if you're in charge of a company or you're in charge of a platoon, you say, hey, we're going to go over this hill.
[01:20:50] And the whole platoon or two thirds of the platoon goes, hey, boss, not so sure about that.
[01:20:55] Or you're in a company, say, we're going to go in this new market area and a bunch of your leadership and a bunch of your mid-level managers say, hey, boss,
[01:21:00] I don't want to go into that market area. What about you? I don't want to go, what about you? I don't want to go, okay, you have to go into that market area.
[01:21:08] Maybe you should reconsider what you're doing. You're not smarter than everybody else. That's a problem.
[01:21:20] Going back to this book.
[01:21:23] Most project 100,000 men were graduated from basic training, even if the even if company commanders had to cheat to get them through, after leaving basic training, project 100,000 men were sent to AIT,
[01:21:35] which is advanced individual training to learn impotu tactics or if they were lucky specialized skills, such as radio telephone operator RTL, perhaps.
[01:21:45] Called the moron core at Fort Polk. Project 100,000 men were, quote, pretty damn bad. Recalled one officer. Somebody had to help them to get dressed in the morning.
[01:21:55] They couldn't understand what was going on. Another officer said lots of these guys just weren't fit to do a job.
[01:22:00] I had to help one by a toothbrush and pack his bags so he could report to another duty station.
[01:22:08] Fast forward a little bit. Most of the 504,000 men of project 100k went to Vietnam with about half of them assigned to combat units, which is just insane.
[01:22:23] A total of 5,470 of these men died while in service. Most of them in combat.
[01:22:28] Their fatality rate was three times out of the other GIs. They'll precise figures are unavailable.
[01:22:36] All of these tallies would be higher if we knew the number of deaths and injuries of substandard men who were not officially counted in project 100,000.
[01:22:44] According to Colonel David Hackworth and Salute, who fought in both Korea and Vietnam wars, and became one of the most highly decorated warriors in American history.
[01:22:55] Project, quote, project 100,000 was implemented to produce more grunts for the killing fields of Vietnam.
[01:23:01] It took unfit recruits from the bottom of the barrel and rushed them to Vietnam. The result was human applesauce.
[01:23:09] He added that for fighting in combat, quote, 10 smart and fit soldiers are better than 100 out of shape dummies and quote.
[01:23:19] And that's, you know, you're, you're the comments you were bringing up earlier.
[01:23:24] I think it's three guys are good. Eight guys. That's his ratio. He's given up 10 to 100. Is that a hyperbally a little exaggerated maybe.
[01:23:32] But if you're talking about people that can't tie their shoes, it might not be hyperbally. It might be reality.
[01:23:39] Yeah, nonetheless he's making the point that that's a big deal.
[01:23:43] Yeah.
[01:23:45] One of one veteran who had good reason to be dismayed by the deaths of Project 100,000 men at Vietnam was Leslie John Shellhase, who had been wounded in the Battle of Bulge in World War II and had served as a Lieutenant Colonel under McNamara at the Pentagon in the late 1960s.
[01:24:00] He said he played a central role in planning for Project 100,000, which he considered a bad idea from the start.
[01:24:07] We mean, the Pentagon planners resisted Project 100,000 because we knew that wars are not won by using marginal man power as cannon fodder, but rather by risking and sometimes losing the flower of a nation's youth and quote.
[01:24:27] Can you imagine being in charge of something and you're getting all this resistance from people that actually do that for a living and you force it down there for what's anyways.
[01:24:37] That's again to your point, Oilyer earlier, which is a reference to my point when you impose things on people it's a bad move.
[01:24:44] Lieutenant Paul D Walker who served in Vietnam, oh and by the way, you know, you've heard me say that imposing things on people doesn't work.
[01:24:51] It doesn't clearly because you impose the draft on people and they avoid it, they get braces, they piss on themselves, whatever. So you think, oh, well, just draft me. It doesn't work. Doesn't work to impose things on people.
[01:25:03] Lieutenant Paul D Walker who served in Vietnam as a battoon leader in the armored cavalry of the first infantry division wrote about the worst episode during his tour of duty.
[01:25:11] We had not seen a single enemy soldier in two days of combat operations resulting in three killed ten wounded and three vehicles destroyed. He blamed the four project 100,000 men in his puttune who accounted for more than their share of casualties in accidents.
[01:25:25] He said that some of the project 100,000 men were, quote, virtually untrainable and never should have been allowed into the military and certainly not send into combat.
[01:25:37] Fast forward a little bit. Not only were low quality and listed men sent to Vietnam said Westmoreland, but low quality officers as well. He cited Lieutenant William Cally convicted it in the murder of more than a hundred on our citizens in the battle in the in the me lie masker 1968.
[01:25:54] According to Arnold R. Isaacs, the Vietnam War correspondent for the Baltimore Sun, Cally quote, funked out a palm beach junior college with two seas a D and four F's in his first year and reportedly managed to get through off-strike and it's cool without even learning how to read a map or use compass and quote.
[01:26:11] Marine Corcoranel Robert D. Heinle said that the army had to take Cally quote because no one else was available.
[01:26:18] His own attorney used Cally's low intelligence as a courtroom defense. The army he said was to blame for me lie massacre because it had lowered mental standards men if it hadn't lowered mental standards. Men like Cally never would have been commissioned.
[01:26:34] But a gay blue spent 22 years as a US Army officer says quote even the staunchest defenders of the army agree that a normal times a man of lieutenant Cally's intelligence and predispositions would never have been allowed to hold a commission.
[01:26:54] The first year was the war when McNamara was campaigning to draft lower apps. You'd men wise military commanders and veterans were warning against this misguided idea.
[01:27:03] For example, 1964, two years before Project Tundra K was launched and impassioned article appeared in the American Bar Association journal by Texas attorney and reserve air force captain William F. Walsh who wrote war fair is steadily growing more complex.
[01:27:19] The day is passed when an effective soldier need only the intelligence to point a musket downhill and obey an order don't fire till this you to you see the whites of their eyes.
[01:27:28] Service in the armed forces today requires an alert questioning mind simply to master the technology of weapons and tactics. There is likely to be no room for the low IQ soldier the warm body who cannot or will not cut the mustard that man is going to get in the way of those who will have to do the job and quote.
[01:27:47] This guy was hearing this despite such warnings that McNamara plow ahead and the results are disastrous.
[01:27:55] One of the biggest blunders of our Vietnam experience said lieutenant Colonel Charles L. Armstrong of the Marine Corps was the project.
[01:28:03] After the current 1000 follow you've taken on board marginally qualified individuals under the mistaken watchward of if the infantry doesn't have to be real smart dumb grunt, however, is not a complete phrase.
[01:28:15] Dumb dead grunt is. You don't have to be a full-bright scholar. You don't have to be a full-bright scholar to be a good rifleman.
[01:28:24] But you can't be stupid.
[01:28:27] To survive in combat, you had to be smart. You had to know how to use your rifle effectively and keep it clean and operable.
[01:28:32] How to navigate through jungles and rice paddies without alerting the enemy and how to communicate and cooperate with other members of your team.
[01:28:39] Sad to say, many low-apps, two men were not smart enough to be successful in combat and his result they were killed or wounded.
[01:28:50] Barry Roma when his nephew Robert ended up in Vietnam at the same time.
[01:28:55] I love Robert like a brother we grew up together. He was only one month younger. Barry served an infantry as a platoon leader in 1967 to 1968.
[01:29:03] saw a lot of combat winning a bronze star for his courage on the battlefield. During his tour, he learned that Robert had been drafted.
[01:29:09] And it was being trained in Fort Lewis, Washington being an infantryman, destined for Vietnam.
[01:29:13] Barry was alarmed because Robert was, quote, very slow and it failed the army's mental test.
[01:29:20] But then a long-came project, 100k lowering standards and making him draughtable. A host of people, his relatives, his comrades at Fort Lewis, his sergeants and officers,
[01:29:28] wrote to the commanding general at Fort Lewis asking that Robert not be sent in a combat because, as one relative put it, quote, he would die.
[01:29:37] But the general turned down the request once in Vietnam. Robert was sent to an infantry unit near the border of Fort North Vietnam.
[01:29:43] One of the most dangerous combat areas during a patrol he was shot in the neck while trying to help a wounded friend.
[01:29:48] He did not die instantly, but heavy gunfire kept a medic from reaching him. He drowned in his own blood, said Barry.
[01:29:58] Looking back, Barry said that Robert really didn't have much luck. While others were getting draft
[01:30:04] a firmance, he was drafted. While congressional while congressman's sons were getting four Fs, which were exemptions,
[01:30:11] for braces on their teeth, Robert was drafted as part of Project 100k.
[01:30:15] In a speech delivered 42 years later, Barry Rommel said that the family had never recovered from losing Robert,
[01:30:24] quote, his death almost destroyed us with anger and sorrow and quote.
[01:30:32] Fastboard a little bit here, mental slowness and extreme anxiety were among the worst enemies of Project 100k,
[01:30:39] men in combat. While training at Fort Benning says Lieutenant Colonel Robert Kimball of combat veteran of Vietnam War,
[01:30:46] we had the ideas cemented into our heads that there were two kinds of soldiers, the quick and the dead.
[01:30:52] To survive in combat, you had to be quick to recognize a threat and quick to respond to it.
[01:30:57] All soldiers in combat experience fear and fear causes a soldier to slow down.
[01:31:01] Fear can have a major impact on whether or not a soldier survives war.
[01:31:04] Sergeant Major Francis T. McNeve said that people who were borderline retarded did not respond
[01:31:15] fast enough and that's how people became casualties. Marine Captain David Anthony Dawson said,
[01:31:23] men who could not understand simple orders or perform simple tasks clearly posed to danger
[01:31:29] to themselves and other members of the unit. He gave the following example.
[01:31:33] While serving as a battalion commander Vietnam Brigadier General William Wise,
[01:31:39] watch the squad leader given order for an ambush patrol. The squad leader gave simple
[01:31:43] clear order but one Marine couldn't remember any of the crucial details including the password.
[01:31:47] That night this Marine left the ambush to relieve himself without telling anyone when returning
[01:31:52] he wanted into the kill zone. The squad leader sprang the ambush and his squad killed them.
[01:32:08] The Daw-Witted soldier said Pentagon official Elliott Conan Cohen does not simply get himself killed.
[01:32:15] He causes the deaths of others as well according to chief warn officer for William S. Tuddle of
[01:32:21] Vietnam veteran. If you take someone with an IQ of 40 and give them a rifle, he's more dangerous
[01:32:26] to you than he is to the enemy.
[01:32:39] There's another fast forward a little new inexperienced men in army and marine units,
[01:32:43] especially project-huntered Kay men had a high rate of getting themselves and their
[01:32:47] comrades wounded a killed in the first few months of their tours in Vietnam. James R. Ebert
[01:32:52] found that 43% of army fatalities happened in the first three months.
[01:32:58] What sucks about reading that statistic is you realize that there's training that you could do
[01:33:03] to get better, to get prepared and it just wasn't happening.
[01:33:07] John L. Ward rejoiced when project-huntered Kay came into his life. He grew up in poverty in a black
[01:33:19] neighborhood of Glasgow, Missouri living in a shanty that had no running water.
[01:33:24] And he talks about John L. Ward's situation. He had taken the test to try and see if he could get
[01:33:33] in to the military. It wasn't good enough. His score wasn't high enough. Then he says,
[01:33:40] then to my other surprise, the Marine Corps recruiter showed up and explained to me that I could
[01:33:43] join them now, despite the low test score. Thanks to project-huntered Kay and the newly
[01:33:48] lowered standards, I could now pursue my dream of getting out of Glasgow and seeing the world.
[01:33:54] And this is an example. It gives this guy John L. Ward as an example of a guy that
[01:33:59] couldn't pass the test because he was uneducated, but not because he wasn't smart. So he had what
[01:34:04] he calls native intelligence, meaning he hadn't gone to school. So he never learned math or whatever,
[01:34:09] but he, but he actually was a smart human. And so when he became a Marine, he did well.
[01:34:16] Ward became a problem-rean quickly. One of promotion of corporal. Unfortunately, his dreams were
[01:34:20] shattered in Vietnam during the night of August 18, 1968, enemy troops attacked an overran
[01:34:25] Marine bunker at full lock killing 17 Marines and wounding many more. Ward suffered severe injuries
[01:34:32] and he was returned to the United States for a long and painful recovery.
[01:34:35] After leaving the service with rank-a-sargent, Ward spent 15 years just trying to survive his
[01:34:40] physical and mental torments. Eventually, he became a counselor and advocate for project-huntered Kay
[01:34:45] veterans. In 2012, he wrote a book entitled Moron Core. About his experiences, one of McNamara's
[01:34:52] Morons, a term that he hated, but nevertheless embraced a reminder, America that project,
[01:34:56] 100 Kay was insensitive, morally unjust, and inhumane. He stated that men who were accepted
[01:35:04] under McNamara's program served their country honorably, even with our so-called limited
[01:35:09] abilities we were willing to lay down our lives for our country. But the program was carried out
[01:35:14] in a morally shameful manner. Project, 100 Kay men were overrepresented in combat and they
[01:35:19] died in disproportionate numbers. Those who managed to survive were, quote, thrown back into
[01:35:24] society without skills promised us. Many of the men were homeless and suffered isolation on
[01:35:30] employment drug addiction and medical neglect. Many failed to receive the assistance that they were
[01:35:35] supposed to receive from the U.S. Department of Affairs.
[01:35:38] Because the National Guard and Reserves were relatively safe avenues for military service,
[01:35:51] they were filled to capacity with middle-class and wealthy men mostly white.
[01:35:57] You usually had to have connections to get in. Poor and working-class men, especially
[01:36:02] blacks, were excluded. In 1968, the Army National Guard was only 1.26 percent black.
[01:36:13] In Mississippi, where blacks made up 42 percent of the population, only one black man was admitted
[01:36:20] to the 10,365 man Mississippi National Guard.
[01:36:24] So again, if you got the right connections, in this case, oh, if you're a white dude,
[01:36:34] you can sneak into the National Guard and avoid going to war.
[01:36:41] In 1972, Professor Leslie Feedler, who knew of hundreds of young people at his college,
[01:36:49] state University of New York at Buffalo slowly realized that he knew not a single Vietnam veteran.
[01:36:55] This is 1972. I had never known a single family that had lost a son in Vietnam. The reason he
[01:37:01] concluded was that Vietnam was the first war that, quote, has been fought for us by our servants.
[01:37:07] The actual fighting of the war has become more and more exclusively an occupation of the
[01:37:13] exploited and dispossessed end quote. During the Vietnam War, Congressman William A. Stiger of
[01:37:22] Wisconsin said the draft as the draft survives as the last vestige of the ancient custom whereby
[01:37:29] the rich and powerful force the poor and weak to provide service at substance wages.
[01:37:37] While it was true that men had grown up in poverty,
[01:37:40] were disproportionately represented in combat. I don't want to leave the impression that
[01:37:44] only the extremely poor fought in Vietnam. In infantry units, the poor were joined by many men
[01:37:51] from working class families described by historian Christian G. Appies as, quote,
[01:37:56] the 19-year-old children of waitresses, factory workers, truck drivers, secretaries, firefighters,
[01:38:02] carpenters, custodians, police officers, salespeople, clerks, mechanics, miners, and farm workers,
[01:38:08] and, quote, men from lower economic levels, porn working class comprised 80% of the combat forces,
[01:38:16] while the remaining 20% came from the middle class, half of them serving his officers.
[01:38:26] I think I have my answer next time, somebody asked me about the draft, my draft, my answer is no,
[01:38:31] because this is the kind of government bullshit that goes down.
[01:38:34] Yeah, that's another one. Another reason why I mean, remind me back to why
[01:38:40] someone would dodge the draft in whatever way.
[01:38:44] Is, yeah, the straight-up government is telling you, you've got to work for them,
[01:38:50] probably lose your life or what, you know, that's it in your mind. That's what you're thinking.
[01:38:54] Right. Work and or kill other people about, you know, for reasons that you're not
[01:39:00] completely sure of, and then yes, it's up to the government now. No, you, governments,
[01:39:05] it's like past. That's imposed, man. Yeah. People, humans don't like being happy, things imposed, no.
[01:39:10] Here's the thing, okay, so taxes, right? We don't like taxes being a poor person.
[01:39:14] No, we don't. Even though the idea of taxes makes sense, you're like, wait a second,
[01:39:17] the government has the function, you know, all this stuff and the government needs money to
[01:39:21] function and do all this stuff, so the idea of taxes, yeah. But just like the idea of, hey,
[01:39:26] if I pitch the draft, you like this, listen, where at war we need people,
[01:39:31] everyone's going to have to serve. We're going to do a lottery. That sounds fair, right?
[01:39:35] Because that's what it was. It was a lottery based on what day you were born.
[01:39:39] So hey, look, this is what we're going to do. If we're, everyone, we're going to,
[01:39:44] where at war we need people. We're going to do a draft. We're going to do a lottery if you get picked.
[01:39:48] You got to go. You'd be like, you know what, don't really like it, but it seems like the
[01:39:52] fair thing to do, cool them down. Let's do the draft, right? Because that's kind of the pitch.
[01:39:56] But then you go, wait, I don't want my son to go. Well, if it's enters into college.
[01:40:02] And then we work around the voting thing. Without way, I'm not working around the voting thing.
[01:40:06] That way we please the group that's going to get the most out of this scenario.
[01:40:13] What would be your, okay, let's say, hypothetical. You need a draft scenario. Like,
[01:40:20] basically, the draft was a solution to this issue, right?
[01:40:24] I'm probably need people, whatever. What would be your off the top of your head?
[01:40:27] Wait, it go up to me now. Well, first of all, I'm thinking that if I'm doing something,
[01:40:32] where the only way I can get the people to come and fight is to force them.
[01:40:37] There's something I'm doing something wrong. I could be that I'm explaining to everyone wrong.
[01:40:42] Why this is important. Yeah. Which it's hard to explain to someone in 1968 that, hey,
[01:40:47] this is a threat to us. And why is that? Well, because it's far away. Yeah. And so if you can't explain that,
[01:40:55] maybe you need to rethink what your strategy is. People get people, the ego's getting away.
[01:41:00] They get addicted to their plan. They believe their own bullshit. You get a guy like McNamara.
[01:41:05] And all the people that surround her dim, it was ridiculous. And Johnson, same thing.
[01:41:11] Like these guys have Johnson knew that we weren't going to win Vietnam halfway through.
[01:41:19] And continue to send troops there and continue to have Americans get killed.
[01:41:23] So you would have started just, you know, I mean, that makes sense. You'd say that.
[01:41:27] Start with yourself first. Like, if you're in charge of the word, like, start with the beginning first. Like,
[01:41:32] is this a, is this solution a real solution or is it adding to another problem?
[01:41:39] If I can't articulate to my team, why we, why we need to do something? And then I need to either
[01:41:47] develop my articulation more, come up with those reasons, make them clear to everyone,
[01:41:51] sir, if I'm going to go, yeah, you know what, this is a rough, rough solution. But it's the only
[01:41:55] solution we get it. We're on board. Yeah. That's why you hear me, sir. I don't, the amount of times
[01:42:01] that I ordered my troops to do something is zero. They're on the time, is there, all right,
[01:42:05] listen, enough debate. This is what we're doing shut up. I never had to do that.
[01:42:08] Because if you can say, hey, listen, here's what, here's the goal that we got to get accomplished.
[01:42:12] Here's why we're doing it. I'm open to suggestions. If you can think of a better way,
[01:42:17] if we, you can't think of a better way, what do you think of this idea? And everyone's, yeah,
[01:42:20] it sounds pretty good. And there's people that freak out and get all scared. Like,
[01:42:25] sometimes you've got to just say, shut up and do it. You actually don't have to do that. You actually
[01:42:29] don't have to do that. Now, could we be in a situation and a gunfight where I'm like,
[01:42:33] echo, go take that building over there? Yeah, that could happen. And you'll be like,
[01:42:36] cool, got it. Boss, or you'll be like, hold on, I can't take that building. There's enemy in it.
[01:42:39] I'll take this other one. I go cool. But you understand what we're trying to do. So the idea of
[01:42:44] imposing things on people is wrong. It's wrong to impose things on people. When was the era of
[01:42:52] like the propaganda posters? And all that was always even easy to get no more. Yeah, we make propaganda
[01:42:59] posters. Well, okay. So, but you know how like there was like a very distinct era.
[01:43:04] World War II is a long-term talk about it. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So to me, and I don't know,
[01:43:09] what do I know? Pretty much nothing. But that being said, that seems like I see what they were doing
[01:43:16] there. I see what they're doing there. It's essentially a marketing campaign. Which is one of the
[01:43:19] times. What do you do essentially? That is a marketing campaign. Sometimes you go past marketing into
[01:43:24] property. Okay. Kind of thing. And that's what I mean. Of course, but you're right either way.
[01:43:28] The, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, it feels like and it's kind of a different way of
[01:43:35] maybe. Yeah. Look, it's a different way of saying what you said where if you can't convince them
[01:43:41] that of a good reason to do this and you're, you're not. It's like something's up, right? Yeah.
[01:43:46] And here's the deal. Like when you're in World War II and you're fighting the Nazis and the
[01:43:51] Imperial Japanese. It ain't a hard sell. Yeah. Oh. These people are trying to take over the whole world
[01:43:57] then impose darkness on it. And we got to go scrap. Yeah. That's what's about to happen. Yeah.
[01:44:02] So that's not a hard sell. That's what makes, that's why you have freaking lines or it's after
[01:44:06] after September 11th. Yeah. The lines around the recruiting Tim Kennedy. Remember Tim Kennedy's like,
[01:44:11] yeah, I went down to, to join after Smebbo. If there's a liner, that's because it's real EV
[01:44:17] is easy to see why we're doing this. What, what happened if you're not in the beginning of
[01:44:21] the nonsense. Okay. We're going to go fight these people. Then after a while we're going,
[01:44:24] wait, what are they doing? Wait, why have we gone through because the South Vietnamese shuffle
[01:44:28] through three, four, five governments? We're, we're, we're going to help this government. Oh,
[01:44:34] well now it's a new government. Now it's another government. Oh, now they're corrupt. This guy
[01:44:37] got a sass net. It's freaking crazy. He's starting looking over the way. What are we doing? So
[01:44:42] as that stuff starts to build up. Okay. And that's what pisses me off going back to this whole
[01:44:47] draft thing. What pisses me off is this. You hear me say this? If someone on the team
[01:44:52] doesn't like what we're doing, you need to raise your hand into hey boss. We don't like what's
[01:44:55] going on here. So if you're getting drafted and you don't like it, what the proper thing to do is
[01:45:02] for the country is to stand up and say, hey, listen, hey, listen, I am not going to go do this.
[01:45:07] Because I don't think this is right because I see we went through four, five different
[01:45:10] governments in Vietnam. It seems like it's corrupt. We don't know what's happening. We're getting
[01:45:14] guys killed. We're killing civilians. We need to figure this out better before I sign up. And if
[01:45:20] 68% of the draftable populist would have said, hey, I'm not going to go fight not because I
[01:45:26] have braces, not because I pissed on myself, not because I'm in college, but because I don't think
[01:45:29] it's the right thing to do. Maybe someone says, okay, we got to figure out. We got to reassess what's
[01:45:33] happening. Right. So in a way, let's go back to the marketing campaign. Hmm, expression.
[01:45:40] So let me ask you this with a great marketing campaign, can you sell me an ice cream cone full of shit?
[01:45:46] I'm not going to buy it. Yes, sir. So what you need to do is say, wait, my product is wrong. I need to
[01:45:59] put milk and sugar and chocolate in here. Yeah. You need to make an adjustment. Not an adjustment or
[01:46:05] what you're not adjustment on your message on your product. Yeah. Or which I think what the
[01:46:11] propging endoposter's kind of seems like this was there. Their little approach was, um,
[01:46:18] well, some of the ones I see anyway, it's less about the ice cream cone full of shit. It's more about
[01:46:24] what kind of person has the strength to endure and ice cream cone full of shit? It's kind of like
[01:46:30] that. You know, it's like messaging there for sure. Yeah, so okay. But let me ask you this in a straight-up
[01:46:37] direct question. Yes. What would be my chances of convincing you to eat an ice cream cone full of shit
[01:46:45] by saying you're due to your tough. You can eat this. There's very few people that are down for that.
[01:46:50] Yeah. Now if I say, listen, hey, listen, this thing, this ice cream cone, it's got seaweed
[01:46:55] and it's got freaking clay. No, Clay's not edible. It's got seaweed in it. This is seaweed ice
[01:47:01] it doesn't taste good, but you gotta get some of this if you're bad. There's a chance I can
[01:47:07] convince you. We do stupid men, you don't shit all the time. Yes, sir. Because we just want to prove
[01:47:14] that we're cool. We're going to prove that we're tough. So there's a difference between trying to get
[01:47:17] someone to eat ice seaweed and someone trying to get someone to eat shit. So what I'm saying is
[01:47:24] if I'm trying to pitch you and the only thing I've got as a product is shit is not going to work.
[01:47:31] It's not a thing. What I need you to say is hey, listen, Jocco, I appreciate it. I'm not going to eat
[01:47:36] shit. It's not happening. You can call me a whim. You can call me weak. You can call me pathetic,
[01:47:42] but I'm not going to eat shit. Now with the seaweed, you could be like, well, I don't know. I want to be weak.
[01:47:48] I don't really want to be pathetic. So, hand me the comb. We're going to get it on. So there's a,
[01:47:53] there's a, there's a, there's a, there's a, there's a, it's close, but it's not the same thing. Yeah,
[01:48:02] and essentially it's like you look at the, the after September 11th as an easy sell. Right.
[01:48:07] Easy sell ice cream. This is spectrum ice cream. Confolish it. Hard sell hard sell.
[01:48:11] Well, yeah. And then the seaweed world war two world war two easy sell. It's pretty easy sell.
[01:48:18] Yeah. Pretty freaking easy sell. They, oh, by the way, they attack pro harbor. What's the sell now?
[01:48:23] We got, we got, we got, just, you don't have to sell. Yeah. The ice cream's there. Everyone's taking it.
[01:48:28] You want it. So, and this goes on the spectrum of all things wars, whatever.
[01:48:33] Where, yeah, the easier the sell, the less you got to focus on these marketing campaign. True.
[01:48:38] The harder the sell, the more you got to focus and be more clever with it. Yeah.
[01:48:41] Same same. But you also have to be able to say to yourself, you know what? What I'm trying to sell is shit.
[01:48:47] Yeah, at the end of the day, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And if you have that, then you don't say,
[01:48:51] well, I'm just going to keep forcing it down people so now you know what you say? Hey, listen, I got to change my product.
[01:48:55] Yeah. What I'm trying to sell is wrong. Yeah. And that's where people get stuck. That's where
[01:48:59] McNamara, that's where Johnson, that's where these people get stuck. Because they, that their egos are too big to admit that this was a dumb idea.
[01:49:05] And say, listen, hey, we tried, this was a bad plan. We didn't realize how corrupt the Vietnamese government was.
[01:49:11] We didn't realize how strong the Vietnam war. We didn't realize how much we were going to have to sacrifice to get in there.
[01:49:17] And we're going to cut our losses when it comes home. We're going to observe to you. What happens?
[01:49:21] That that's what a square away humble human being would do. Yeah.
[01:49:33] Going back to the book. William Broyles who commanded a Marine Industry Poutine to be a non from
[01:49:38] 1969 and 1971 said it was not a privilege to be able to fight. It was instead evidence that one had failed
[01:49:45] to understand how to manipulate the system. As if anyone not smart enough to get a deferment or at
[01:49:51] least to get a job in the rear was too dumb to do anything but carry a rifle.
[01:49:58] Wayne Johnson who served as a grunt Vietnam 1968 told me that his squad leader assigned
[01:50:04] quote, one of McNamara's boys to walk point. And justified his action by saying if anyone
[01:50:09] asked a guy better dummy than the rest of us. Johnson said it was unfair. I know. But none of us
[01:50:15] protested. While he was with the unit, he added none of the point men were injured killed.
[01:50:27] Fast forward a little bit said earlier I showed and by the way this book is I'm obviously just
[01:50:32] skim in the surface here. This book is really fascinating and informative about all of this, not just
[01:50:39] around project 100,000 but obviously about the draft and spills over in a leadership as well.
[01:50:45] He says earlier I showed out tens of thousands of middle class and upper class men beat
[01:50:49] the draft by employing such strategies is getting a family doctor right a letter testing to some
[01:50:54] minor medical problem. By contrast, most of low income youths knew nothing about how they could
[01:50:59] manage their draft status. In many cases they had legitimate problems that should have kept them
[01:51:04] from serving such as being blind in one eye or only having one kidney. But they possess no awareness
[01:51:10] or skills to argue the case. They didn't know that they could go to a draft board or induction
[01:51:15] center and explain their rightful grounds for an exemption. Later if they were abused in basic
[01:51:20] training or AIT they lacked the skills to complain to a member of Congress. After discharge,
[01:51:25] if they were denied veterans' benefits they didn't know how to work through the bureaucracy.
[01:51:31] In my research I found only one case of a project 100k man or his family using the tools
[01:51:37] of protest and persuasion that middle class citizens knew how to use. In 1969 a father and organ
[01:51:42] bought the army's plan to send, sorry, fought the army's plan to send his son, whom he described
[01:51:49] as retarded with a mental age of a ten year old to Vietnam as an instrument. His mother said
[01:51:55] he's just a little boy he'll be killed sure. The parents generated publicity in Oregon newspapers
[01:52:03] and enlisted the aid of Congress and Congressmen went to Wyatt and Senator Mark Hatfield
[01:52:08] because of all the negative publicity the army canceled the youth assignment to combat in Vietnam
[01:52:12] and sent him instead to Germany to perform clerical tasks. That's only one case and why
[01:52:18] that's what he's pointing out is somebody that's up in the freaking poor rural area doesn't even
[01:52:24] understand, oh well you can you can you can try and get out of this or someone from the geto
[01:52:29] doesn't understand oh you can you can try there's a way to get out of this they haven't heard it yet.
[01:52:37] Going crazy he says this during my lifetime in moments of extreme stress anxiety or panic
[01:52:43] I have done things that are dumb and destructive it is humbling and instructive to remember
[01:52:48] my own episodes of dysfunction when I consider the insane actions of some project hundred k men
[01:52:53] who were young typically nineteen or twenty and burdened with more anxiety and vulnerability
[01:52:57] than I will ever experience that's a freaking great point you think about the things that you've
[01:53:03] done when you're stressed out freaked out and you've done dumb things behave badly made bad
[01:53:09] decisions because of that and you're a smart person imagine what these other people I don't know more
[01:53:13] stress in a combat scenario. In a study of intellectually disabled men at the mental hygiene clinic
[01:53:22] at the sixty-seven evacuation hospital and queen non in a six-month period two army psychiatrists
[01:53:28] found that project hundred k soldiers were referred to for psychiatric help ten times as frequently
[01:53:34] as other troops. Project hundred k men they said seem to have lowered stress tolerance and a relative
[01:53:43] lack of the usual mechanisms for coping with stress and a separate study for army psychiatrists
[01:53:48] concluded quote individuals of lower intellectual capacity have greater difficulty and adjustment
[01:53:53] than persons of average intelligence and thus more frequently become psychiatric problems or disciplinary
[01:54:01] offenders. And quote can you imagine that in Vietnam during the war they're studying intellectually
[01:54:09] disabled men in the army in Vietnam in combat. God we're freaking disaster.
[01:54:23] Jim Bracewell, a helicopter pilot who commanded an air cavalry squadron in the Maycon Delta
[01:54:28] 1970 tells the story of Mike Sanchez not his real name who was a product of project hundred k
[01:54:34] and never should have been sent to a war zone as soon as Mike was assigned to an infantry
[01:54:38] patoon in the field the young lieutenant patoon leader realized that a terrible mistake had been made.
[01:54:43] He requested that Mike be moved to rareria while the request was being processed Mike a simple
[01:54:48] young man who could neither read nor write remain in the infantry patoon and was asked to perform beyond
[01:54:52] his mental capabilities. The patoon leader was very compassionate and tried to keep Mike under his wing
[01:54:58] protecting him from ridicule from unfailing soldiers. In return Mike developed an intense loyalty to
[01:55:04] the lieutenant one day as the patoon moved through some rice patties the men came under heavy fire
[01:55:09] from the enemy and they ran for cover as soon as they reach cover Mike looked for his lieutenant.
[01:55:14] He couldn't find him. He frantically began calling the patoon leader's name.
[01:55:17] One of the other soldiers told Mike to stop yelling that he had seen the lieutenant go down and
[01:55:21] thought he was dead. Mike tearfully asked where he was when he point pin pointed the
[01:55:25] lieutenant's position. He shed his equipment including his rifle and ran through heavy fire to his
[01:55:30] lieutenant. He scrambled to his young leader's side and discovered that he was badly hit in both legs.
[01:55:35] Mike didn't know whether the lieutenant was dead or alive. He made no attempt at first aid.
[01:55:40] It never occurred to him. He simply picked up the lieutenant as if he were a doll and ran back to the
[01:55:44] tree line. Neither of them were hit during the dash to the trees and no one could believe
[01:55:48] it considering the intensity of enemy fire. They said the patoon bullets hitting the rice patty
[01:55:53] patty water all around him made it seem impossible if they were not hit. The lieutenant received
[01:55:58] first aid and a short time later was evacuated by helicopter. He survived.
[01:56:03] About a month later, Bracewell said Mike was sent to the rear area to participate in a parade
[01:56:08] and receive a silver star for heroism presented by the commanding general of his division.
[01:56:13] As was costumeria ceremonies, the general presented the metal and then chatted with him for a few
[01:56:19] minutes. It was during this chat that the general realized that something was not quite right.
[01:56:23] He ordered his subordinates to remove Mike from combat. That kind of rings of the forest gump scenario.
[01:56:37] That section, there's some other good stories in there about
[01:56:42] just about guys that did perform. Even though they were not quite, didn't have as much cognitive
[01:56:49] capacity. They, and they just got a bunch of examples like that.
[01:56:54] Bottom of the barrel, this section's called and calling the day in 1969, when you reported to the
[01:56:59] induction center in downtown Cleveland, Ohio for his pre-induction exam. Mark Footk can said at one
[01:57:05] point, at that point in the word, they were taking just about anyone they could get misfits,
[01:57:09] flatfoot's the half crippled and the half crazed.
[01:57:14] And so they had to get more people, they had two ways to get more people.
[01:57:17] And Ducson centers had a monthly quota for how many project hundred K men they could take.
[01:57:22] When they used up their quota, they were instructed to continue to take low scoring men,
[01:57:25] but not count them a part of project hundred K. In this way, thousands of additional low IQ
[01:57:31] men were brought into the ranks. Two recruiters and induction centers were pressured to cast a
[01:57:36] wider net and bring in thousands of additional men who would normally fail to qualify for
[01:57:41] military duty men with health problems, physical defects, psychological disorders,
[01:57:45] criminal backgrounds, or drug and alcohol addiction. These second-class fellows to use President
[01:57:51] Johnson's term, served at political goal, they spared healthier wealth for your men in the middle
[01:57:56] class from being drafted. Many military commanders lamented the skewed priorities that put the
[01:58:03] playing a put-playing politics ahead of creating a high quality fighting force.
[01:58:09] Adrian Arluis, a retired U.S. Army major who taught at West Point said,
[01:58:15] the primary concern of the draft was pacification of the American people to disrupt the
[01:58:20] American society as little as possible, providing the armed forces with the best men possible
[01:58:25] was at best a secondary consideration. It's just about politics, man.
[01:58:32] As the military grew more and more desperate for manpower, induction centers grabbed
[01:58:36] every warm body they could find even men with serious medical conditions such as asthma,
[01:58:40] high blood pressure, hearing loss, Carlos Martinez who said he grew up in the streets and orphaned
[01:58:47] edges of Bronx and Brooklyn was rejected by the military 1964 as physically unfit for service,
[01:58:51] but in 1967 low and behold he was now fit. We were the bottom of the barely said, I was almost
[01:58:57] legally blind. But when we got down to the induction station in 1967 it wasn't really about the
[01:59:02] physicals. It was like you were being taken. The assumption was that the assumption was already made
[01:59:09] that you were available, everybody was taken the only way you don't pass is if you don't have a leg.
[01:59:17] Fast forward a little bit more among the ranks of the armed forces in 1961 or
[01:59:23] men who had been unacceptable because of their body size. For example, two heavy two thin, two short.
[01:59:28] Until Project 100K, only made them fair again. 9% of Project 100K men were accepted because
[01:59:38] a new less-strigen physical centers. So 91% was mental. But there was 9% that did lower the physical
[01:59:46] standards because they were different in quotes. These men were often harassed and given humiliating
[01:59:54] names overweight men were ridiculed with names such as Fatty, Lardas and Porkey,
[01:59:59] excessively thin men, skin and bones and tiny men run and midget.
[02:00:07] Army veteran John Kettwig tells of a trainee called Fatso at Fort Dix, New Jersey,
[02:00:12] you committed suicide after suffering horrendous cruelty at the hands of a sadistic sergeant.
[02:00:17] Once he had been a law student, said Kettwig, he had been called to do his duty yet of wife.
[02:00:30] And criminals as well. For many NCOs and officers, the Pentagon policy that caused most
[02:00:35] anger and outrage in the later years of the war was the relaxation of what's so called moral standards.
[02:00:40] Men who had been convicted of serious crimes like armed robbery were supposed to be disqualified
[02:00:44] from service, but recruiters and induction centers were given the authority to grant moral wavers
[02:00:49] to bring them into the ranks. In a common scenario, a judge working in collaboration with a
[02:00:54] recruiter would give a young offender a choice, go to jail or join the Army or the Marine Corps.
[02:01:01] When a judge and recruiter worked out a deal, the procedure was known as punitive enlistment.
[02:01:09] Criminal behavior was often accompanied by alcohol and drug abuse if a man had a police record
[02:01:13] for drug driving or intoxicated assaults. He would have been rejected in the days before the
[02:01:17] Vietnam war, but after the war became began, because of the manpower shortages he was accepted.
[02:01:23] That punitive enlistment. How much do you know about it? Like, do they do that now?
[02:01:29] I heard of that. They don't do it anymore. I would hear guys saying that even when I got in
[02:01:36] or jail or the man there. I know a guy. Okay, I'll stay up the judge. That's what he told them.
[02:01:42] Okay, that's then still happens. How long ago was that? It's hard to get in the military right now.
[02:01:49] Yeah, it was before. I don't know. I don't know. But he is younger than me.
[02:01:56] So I know. I guess it's a thing. I definitely knew people that told stories like that,
[02:02:01] but there's a lot of people especially when you first get in the military. A lot of stories.
[02:02:04] No, for everyone was a, you know, drafted to play in the NFL, but then they chose this.
[02:02:09] You know, everyone's a D1 football player or Golden Gloves boxer and like there's a lot of stories here.
[02:02:16] Or you know, I was like, like, fuck, you know, I was either, I come to jail or come here.
[02:02:23] So you hear a lot of stories, you know, in which ones to believe kind of when you first get in.
[02:02:26] Yeah, I believe this guy, I guess. I mean, yeah, I believe him, but yeah, I don't who knows.
[02:02:33] I don't know. I don't know if I didn't grow up with him or nothing. If you know the guy,
[02:02:36] yeah, and like he seems legit, then maybe it's true. Yeah. But I'm just saying when you get in the military,
[02:02:42] especially Boocamp, there's a lot of people say a lot of weird stories, man.
[02:02:48] They make up a lot of stuff that's trying sound cool. But we know that it did happen.
[02:02:53] I mean, clearly, that had a name. I was that's the first time I'd ever heard that name,
[02:02:56] punitive enlistment. I've never heard that before. Or maybe now it's like less like official,
[02:03:00] you know, or something like that. Yeah.
[02:03:02] Yeah, maybe it's less official now. I know it's harder to get in the military now. Like if you have
[02:03:08] criminal records, it's really hard to get in the military now. So check.
[02:03:16] And finally, years of the war, men who were violent, angry or disturbed became a significant presence
[02:03:20] in the Army and Marine Corps according to many officers. They were responsible for a series
[02:03:24] breakdown of discipline in the troops at Vietnam in 1971. Colonel Robert DeHinal wrote in
[02:03:30] Armed Forces Journal. This is in 1971. We wrote this. Our Army now that now remains in Vietnam
[02:03:36] is in a state approaching collapse with individual units avoiding or having refused combat,
[02:03:42] murdering their officers, drug ridden, and disperated were not near muteness.
[02:03:48] That's an assessment in the Armed Forces Journal in 1971, from a Colonel, a full-board Colonel.
[02:03:54] According to Baskar and Strauss, the most serious symptom of the crisis in discipline of Vietnam
[02:04:02] was fragging. Real or threatened assaults on officers and high-ranking sergeants.
[02:04:06] The practice got its name from fragmentation grenade, which would be rolled into the area where
[02:04:11] an officer or NCO was sleeping when it exploded. No fingerprints could be found.
[02:04:17] The target was often a leader who was hated because he was incompetent and leading men or
[02:04:21] excessively harsh and is disciplined or overly aggressive in waging war. Putting the lives of
[02:04:27] soldiers and Marines in an unnecessary risk just so that he could gain glory and advance his own career.
[02:04:34] In addition to thousands of threats that were never carried out, there were confirmed reports
[02:04:38] of at least 800 fragings, or attempted fragings in the Army in the Marine Corps. That's a lot,
[02:04:44] 800. With 86 men killed and an estimated 700 wounded. From fragging?
[02:04:50] Yep. Like children's arrow confirmed. Yep. That's confirmed reports.
[02:04:56] That's some turmoil right there. But this was probably only the tip of the iceberg,
[02:05:01] according to a historian, a West Heiter. The true figure may never be known.
[02:05:09] Many officers felt unsafe simply because they were authority figures. During his second-torn Vietnam,
[02:05:15] major Colin Powell later, forced our general said he was living in a large tent and I moved my
[02:05:20] cot every night, partly to fort via Colin and four months who might be tracking me.
[02:05:24] But also because I did not rule out attacks on our authority from within the battalion itself.
[02:05:31] Coming from Colin Powell. Captain Thomas Cecil, who was stationed at Comron Bay in 1971,
[02:05:43] was so worried about attacks on his life that during his last month in Vietnam he slept in the
[02:05:47] military intelligence bunker and only his battalion commander knew where he was at night.
[02:05:54] Among Marines in 1968, fragging was a worse problem than an illegal drug use,
[02:05:59] according to a team of Marine Corps historians who wrote that although the number of
[02:06:03] fragging's was relatively small, the knowledge that fragging's occurred often had a chilling effect
[02:06:09] on a leader's willingness to enforce discipline. And again, when you're, when you're
[02:06:16] attitude is you're going to impose things on people and you're going to enforce discipline instead of
[02:06:21] lead and listen and corroborate to figure out how to execute things.
[02:06:33] I don't know something. Oh, you got to get him to do it. Well, you got to listen to him.
[02:06:38] And I've actually done that. I did that my whole career.
[02:06:41] Most fragging's occurred inside camps while out in jungles and rice pad.
[02:06:47] Paddy's a different method was used by infantrymen who wanted to kill, quote,
[02:06:51] bat officers according to Robert Nylin, the combat infantry officer quoted earlier.
[02:06:56] Sometimes an airant bullet struck an incompetent fool amid a firefight problem solved.
[02:07:01] During the war army private, an army private named Paul Solo was quoted as saying the army
[02:07:12] keeps a lot of strange dudes off the street. The most common example of strange dudes were known
[02:07:17] in the military as misfits, chronically maladapted soldiers who were unable to fit in with other
[02:07:22] soldiers because they were disturbingly different from everyone else. Misfits wrote author Peter Barnes,
[02:07:28] tend to share a number of common characteristics. Large majority of our high school dropouts
[02:07:33] were often slow-witted loner types who are not particularly attractive or likable.
[02:07:37] And civilian life, most of them have been losers many times over. In the military, this pattern is
[02:07:42] repeated. If misfits manage to slip through pre-induction screening and the anorbasic training,
[02:07:49] their ability to adapt becomes noticeable and they are usually discharged sometimes with a
[02:07:54] diagnosis of personality disorder. But during the Vietnam war, misfits were kept because of
[02:07:59] manpower shortages. Most of them were poor learners or slow adjusters. They were unable to make friends
[02:08:04] and they became targets of their superior's rage and their peers resentment.
[02:08:09] Malcolm Miller Jones, a veteran who grew up in New York City noted that group cohesion was
[02:08:14] important for petoons in training and in combat at a man who failed to work in sync with his comrades
[02:08:19] and failed to do his share of the chair at chores was often the recipient of a blanket party
[02:08:24] in which a blanket was thrown over the man and just put two meets mates beat him anonymously
[02:08:28] with their fist. A blanket party would cause some men to shape out and become cooperative,
[02:08:33] but it failed to reform others. I mentioned some of the success stories. Here's another success story.
[02:08:42] There's a chief hospital, Corman Don Phelps, who was in charge of a sick bay, a big sick bay,
[02:08:48] and he had an assistant that he calls Elmer here, not as real name, who was not too bright,
[02:08:55] quote, not too bright. Phelps was ordered to take Elmer and he was immediately surprised by the young
[02:09:01] man's solid performance and eagerness to plead it. Please, Elmer made the sick bay sparkle with
[02:09:05] cleanliness. Phelps said I couldn't amass for a cleaner sharper space if I had a crew of five
[02:09:09] work informed me because of Elmer's mental limitations. Phelps said he never gave many large amount of
[02:09:14] detailed work, but in the basic cleaning jobs that he assigned Elmer took extreme pride when he
[02:09:19] did accomplish, he was very polite and developed the highly commendable appearance. The story of
[02:09:24] Elmer supports the argument made by many educators and psychologists that low-app through
[02:09:28] the individuals can be productive in low-stress non-dater situations. It gives another example of a
[02:09:35] of a lieutenant that has to type letters of condolences home and he says, my best type is was a young
[02:09:41] man who seemingly never should have been drafted or recruited. His mental acuity was severely disabled.
[02:09:45] However, he was diligent in his duties never distracted and rarely made in error. I wish I had more
[02:09:50] like him. A wall, absent without lead, the major illegality in the armed forces during the
[02:10:02] Vietnam War was absenteeism, A wall, which is absence of less than 30 days in desertion,
[02:10:07] 30 days are longer. During the entire period of the Vietnam War, says baschering strouse,
[02:10:13] there were approximately 1.5 million A wall incidents and 500,000 desertion incidents.
[02:10:19] At the peak of the war, a 1968 American soldier was going a wall every two minutes,
[02:10:24] and deserting every six minutes. In 1970 alone, wrote Marine Colonel Robert Dehyneal Jr.
[02:10:31] The Army had 65,000 deserters, a roughly the equivalent of four infantry divisions.
[02:10:43] Project 100K men were more likely to run away than other soldiers.
[02:10:47] So A wall is less than 30 days. And then that's desertion after that.
[02:10:51] Yep. And A was absent without lead.
[02:10:54] Yeah, because the lead was how you go. Often their behavior stem from their personality and
[02:11:03] family history, these are 100K people that go that run away. Many of the men grew up in poor families,
[02:11:08] no father present, little or no education, lots of chaos and confusion. For some low IQ men,
[02:11:13] running away was a common response to stress and harassment. They failed to stop and ponder
[02:11:18] the many warnings they had heard throughout their time in the military. Warnings of the dire
[02:11:22] consequences of going a wall or deserting. They were told that a wall or desersion would
[02:11:26] cause them to receive a less than honorable discharge, which would make it difficult to get a good
[02:11:30] job. Unfortunately, the concept of a lifelong stigma was too abstract to have any real meaning for them.
[02:11:38] The guy who had troubles usually had less intelligence than didn't think ahead. Most of these
[02:11:42] kids weren't bad. They were just dumb. It's coming from a, it's coming from a batayan commander.
[02:11:47] There's a little uprising in the, in the, in the Percidio, Percidio in San Francisco. They had
[02:11:57] like a prison there. October 11, 1968, a prisoner named Richard Rusty Bunch, who's described
[02:12:04] by relatives as high IQ, but severely depressed and suicidal, asked a guard. If I run, will you shoot
[02:12:10] me? You requested that the guard aim at his head and then he skipped away. He'd gone 30 feet when
[02:12:16] the guard killed him with a 12 gauge shotgun blast and his back. The killing sparked a peaceful
[02:12:23] sit down protest by 27 of the prisoners. Their spokesman tried to read a list of their grievances,
[02:12:28] but the prison commander 25 year old captain called in 75 MPs to encircled the huddled men together
[02:12:34] and ordered a halt to the process protest. When the men refused all 27 were seized and charged with
[02:12:40] muting, the charges later reduced to will for obedience, disobedience of lawful order. In the following
[02:12:48] months, three men escaped to Canada, two were found guilty of lesser charges, 22 were found guilty
[02:12:52] with sentences ranging from six months to 16 years, but ultimately none of them actually had to serve
[02:12:58] service. Serve more than one year. Thanks the unfavorable publicity the army received. That's,
[02:13:04] you can, influence what's going on. That's why I said, when you stand up and say, hey, this doesn't
[02:13:09] make sense here, this is what no one agrees with this. You can actually gain support. Yeah, and again,
[02:13:15] it kind of goes back, you know, in a small way, maybe in a big way to the, that like marketing campaign
[02:13:20] idea. For sure. Where it's a help review. Yeah, yeah, all that's all in play, right? So yeah,
[02:13:27] the government or if you need people to fight your war, you've been have a good marketing campaign
[02:13:32] and it's either going to be a easier seller or a hard to sell, whatever that's in. Hey,
[02:13:36] that's on you. Yeah. And you have a sell it decisions for me. Yeah, yeah, fully. And if you have to,
[02:13:41] if it's hard to sell things, you need to think about what you're doing. Well, it shouldn't be hard to sell
[02:13:44] things, bro. Yeah. Yeah. What does people on my team not want to win? Yeah. And if they don't want to win,
[02:13:50] they're not aligned to we have a real problem. But most of the time we want to win. Yeah. And then yeah,
[02:13:55] and the shoes kind of other foot as well, if it's like, hey, government is not selling me, they're trying
[02:14:01] to impose. So hey, let me market to why, you know, why we shouldn't. Why don't we have to do this,
[02:14:06] you know, and boom, you get that support. You get an effective successful marketing campaign.
[02:14:11] Mm-hm. Unless your marketing campaign gets banned. And you can market against them,
[02:14:19] banning your campaign. Yeah, I'm saying. Yeah. But yeah, yeah, yeah. It's a little tricky these days.
[02:14:23] That makes it hard for sure. Bad paper. Bad papers when you get
[02:14:30] less than honorable discharge or other than honorable. When it was time for Project Hunter Kman to
[02:14:36] leave the military men of them received a heavy blow slightly over half of them. 180,000. So there's only
[02:14:42] 360,000 of these people. 180,000 were separated with discharges under conditions other than honorable.
[02:14:50] A stigma that made it hard to get good jobs because many employers were not higher veterans who failed
[02:14:55] to produce a certificate of honorable discharge. They were often barred from veterans' benefits,
[02:15:01] such as healthcare, housing assistance, employment, and counseling. Some of them became
[02:15:05] chronically homeless and troubled. Although some bad paper vets have been guilty of serious
[02:15:11] offenses, most have been accused of minor offenses related to the stress of military life and combat,
[02:15:15] a wall, missing duty, abusing alcohol or drugs or taking or talking back to a superior.
[02:15:20] There was a cruel irony in the less than honorable discharges, millions of men who beat the
[02:15:30] draft legally by going to college or getting braces, etc. suffered nothing. In fact, they
[02:15:36] held an advantage over men who served. They got the first crack at jobs, compile, and compiled
[02:15:42] seniority and experience. Even the draft Dodgers who fled to Canada and Sweden got amnesty
[02:15:48] from presidents forward and corridor, but not McNamara's bad paper vets. Unlike the articulate
[02:15:55] politically astute war resistors, they had no one to lobby for them.
[02:16:01] For then he talks about one guy that built Daniel of Nashville who'd been an army recruiter
[02:16:06] in 1967. When he was interviewed 35 years later, he was still bitter about the approximately
[02:16:11] hundred McNamara's morons. He had personally recruited in the slums of Cleveland, Ohio during the
[02:16:16] war. It didn't really sit too good with me, he said, when you are told to do what to do in the
[02:16:22] military, you know what you do what you are told to do. They never should have been in the military.
[02:16:28] Many of the low aptitude men that he and his fellow recruiters signed up or either killed and
[02:16:33] combat when they left the or when they left the army, they were departed with less than honorable
[02:16:37] discharges for such offenses as going a wall in subordination or bed wedding.
[02:16:43] You take a man who can't read or write, he said, he never knew about the firm and
[02:16:48] he comes from the ghetto and he may not want to take orders and you send him into the
[02:16:53] by the most expedient means necessary into combat. That's only going to lead to failure.
[02:17:01] Fast forward a little bit several veterans, counselors in the 1980s told me of similar
[02:17:07] experiences with low-vite low IQ Vietnam veterans when review boards were asked to change a
[02:17:12] discharge from undesirable to general, the uniform officers who were compassionate to a project
[02:17:17] under K-man would approve the change. So you got people trying to get these bad discharges changed
[02:17:25] and the military uniform officers like you. We need to give these guys a break. But they would be
[02:17:31] overruled by civilian superiors who regarded men who had gone a wall as slackers who deserve
[02:17:36] no mercies. In an absurd turn of events some of these civilians who viewed themselves as upholding
[02:17:43] military tradition had been draft of orders during the Vietnam War. There was infuriating to see
[02:17:49] these officials kick the very men who had served in their stead. So here is the the verdict
[02:18:00] kind of puts out some word on McNamara's plan. At the dawn of Project 100K, Robert McNamara
[02:18:09] boasted that the program would quote salvage the poverty, poverty scarred youth of our society
[02:18:15] and at the rate of 100,000 men each year. First, for two years of military service and then for
[02:18:22] a lifetime of product, productive activity in civilian society and call. Despite the soaring
[02:18:30] optimism, Project 100K became known as McNamara's folly. It was a failure bringing more suffering
[02:18:37] than redemption. Though some Project 100K men did well in the service passing basic training
[02:18:43] going on to productive military assignments. Large numbers that had trouble coping with the
[02:18:47] demands of military life. They were often hazed and ridiculed and demeaned. It was ironic that
[02:18:53] McNamara and one of his speeches extoling Project 100K said, I have directed that these men shall
[02:18:59] never be singled out or stigmatized in any manner." And then he puts, somehow his order never
[02:19:06] worked its way down to company level. Some veterans of Project 100K were psychologically
[02:19:12] devastated by the war. Dr. John Wilson, a psychologist at Cleveland State University who spent
[02:19:17] several years studying Vietnam Veterans' emotional problems estimated that thousands of
[02:19:21] Project 100K men who had served in Southeast Asia were so severely messed up that they couldn't
[02:19:27] function in society. When I say severely messed up, I mean they can't hold jobs, raise families,
[02:19:32] and cope with day-to-day living. McNamara had predicted that life after they returned to civilian
[02:19:40] world, Project 100K men would have an earning capacity, quote, two to three times that it would
[02:19:47] have been had there been no such program. After the war, however, a follow-up study on Project
[02:19:54] 100K men showed that in late 1986 to 1987 labor market, they were either no better offer,
[02:20:03] actually worse off than non-veterans of similar aptitude. So much for McNamara's rosy prediction.
[02:20:10] In 2014, when many Vietnam veterans were entering their retirement years, a study funded by the
[02:20:15] Department of Veterans Affairs estimated that more than 283,000 veterans still suffered from post-traumatic
[02:20:21] stress disorder, which was characterized by disabling flashbacks hyper-rausol and sleep problems.
[02:20:27] The key, the study's key takeaway, is that for some PTSD is not going away, said William Schlegler,
[02:20:34] a lead scientist on the study. It is chronic and prolonged for veterans with PTSD the war is not over.
[02:20:41] The study found that low IQ veterans were more likely to suffer from PTSD than high IQ vets.
[02:20:47] Project 100K and McNamara's other failures in the war wrecked his reputation.
[02:20:56] At first admired for his intelligence and analytical prowess, author Thomas Stitt wrote,
[02:21:03] McNamara later became one of the most hated men in America by the officers in the listed personnel he had led.
[02:21:11] One officer angry over the abusive, mentally limited men in the armed forces,
[02:21:15] even confronted McNamara in public. At a conference in Washington, D.C. as McNamara touted the
[02:21:20] virtues of Project 100K and Army psychologist, who was treating psychologically afflicted,
[02:21:26] afflicted, afflicted Vietnam veterans at Walter Reed Army Medical Center stood up and spoke out.
[02:21:32] Although McNamara was a, although a mere captain, Dr. Walter P.
[02:21:37] Nick K. N. A. K. E. told McNamara, what you're doing is wrong. And by the way, Dr. Walter P. Nick,
[02:21:48] I looked him up. He's alive. If you want to come on the podcast, he's invited.
[02:21:55] Did McNamara ever express regret over Project 100,000 by auger for Deborah Shapley says that
[02:22:02] to the very end he refused to apologize or admit error. McNamara wanted to believe the Project 100K
[02:22:11] was a universally successful program, but his self-congregulation was at odds with a
[02:22:16] virtue of most scholars and other observers. Christian Api said Project 100K was instituted with
[02:22:24] high-minded rhetoric about offering the poor and opportunity to serve its result, however,
[02:22:29] was to send many poor, terribly confused and woefully under-educated boys to risk death in Vietnam.
[02:22:36] Any Peabaker, history professor, Wheaton College said Project 100K or McNamara's morons as
[02:22:42] the cruel joke went was a disaster benefiting neither the men nor the armed forces.
[02:22:47] Jacob Helebron of Georgetown University said McNamara's experiment in social engineering had the
[02:22:53] most awful results, including ridicule and training camps in death in Vietnam, Samuel F. Yeet.
[02:22:58] Professor at Howard University said that instead of preparing in poverty, young men with skills
[02:23:05] for a better life, Project 100K was little more than express vehicle to Vietnam. Denouncing McNamara
[02:23:11] for his intellectual arrogance and duplicity, Myra McPherson authored of the Vietnam classic long-time
[02:23:18] passing called Project 100,000, a shameful brainchild and one of the most heinous acts as the chief,
[02:23:25] as one of his most heinous acts as chief architect of the war.
[02:23:34] On the last day of 1971, Project 100K was officially ended and in July of 1971, the draft was
[02:23:40] replaced by the all volunteer force. Passing the AFQT was raised from the 10th percentile,
[02:23:47] IQ 72 to the old standard of the 31st percentile IQ of 92. So they did, they shut it down,
[02:23:57] but he goes to point on that this kind of thing still happens. He says in 1976, Charlie Wilson
[02:24:04] Congressman from Texas testified at a hearing about the death of one of his constituents,
[02:24:09] Lynn McHugh McClur, who was a 20-year-old young man from Liffkin, Texas, who had a history of non-success,
[02:24:17] who was mentally retarded, who weighed 115 pounds, somehow got into the Marine Corps and was
[02:24:21] severely beaten during basic training and dietas as a result of those injuries without regaining consciousness.
[02:24:27] Until so, Oklahoma, 1976, 25-year-old man walked out of a state mental institution where he
[02:24:33] lived for 14 years and wandered into a Army recruiting station. He had been diagnosed as having
[02:24:38] what today is called Down Syndrome, was labeled severely retarded. When he entered the recruiting
[02:24:48] station, he was promptly enlisted by a sergeant who, a later investigated investigation revealed
[02:24:54] fate, his test scores, he was sent to Fort O'Rd, California for basic training,
[02:24:58] soon deserted came back to Tulsa, arrested, put in the Fort Sil Stockade to face court marshal,
[02:25:05] psychiatrist, examined him and found the other mental capacity of a nine-year-old.
[02:25:10] He even up to today in the drawn-out wars, and I rack an Afghanistan fast forward a little bit.
[02:25:14] Beginning in 2001, the U.S. did not bring back the draft, but there were many parallels to
[02:25:19] Vietnam as the military accepted low-performing recruits because it was desperate for more
[02:25:23] more soldiers for combat. And Army Private named David Dietrich of Petri Perry County,
[02:25:29] Pennsylvania, was subject of a newsweek article entitled He Never Should Have Gone To I Rack.
[02:25:35] Before and during his Army time, he was considered slow in his thinking and he had trouble
[02:25:39] retaining information and basic training, couldn't hit targets on the rifle range,
[02:25:44] even though he was given extra training, one superior campaign to have Dietrich sent home on grounds
[02:25:49] that he would pose a danger to himself and others if he was sent to I rack, but the request was
[02:25:54] rebuffed by hires up as with Vietnam there was a big push to get troops into the combat zone.
[02:25:59] Soon after he arrived in Iraq, he was assigned to act as a scout and an abandoned building
[02:26:04] where he was supposed to watch from an open window. A few minutes after starting his duty
[02:26:11] in the window he was shot dead. That was a December 2006 in Ramadhi right after we left.
[02:26:18] 2007, nine Marine Corps recruiters worked in the Houston area, were punished for using
[02:26:26] stand-ins to take mental tests at the Houston induction center for 15 marginal prospects
[02:26:32] who might not have passed the tests on their own. The fraud was caught by an official
[02:26:35] who noticed the signatures of the test takers didn't match those on the enlistment forms.
[02:26:39] No one knew how long the fraudulent test taking had been going on.
[02:26:42] Yeah, that's 2007, by the way.
[02:26:49] From 2004 to 2007, four major branches of the armed forces granted 125,000 mullet waivers
[02:26:55] to override the rule against accepting people with criminal records.
[02:27:01] Stephen Green, Stephen Green, 20, an angry misfit and high school dropout from Midland, Texas,
[02:27:08] who had racked up jail time for drug and alcohol offenses before he joined the army with a moral
[02:27:13] waiver. In 2006, Green and four other soldiers, and Iraq drank alcohol, changed into black clothes,
[02:27:19] and then raided the home of a husband and wife and their two daughters, Green killed the parents
[02:27:24] and the younger daughter, then he and a second soldier raped the 14-year-old daughter,
[02:27:28] shot her, sent fire to her daughter to just body to try to destroy the evidence.
[02:27:33] His convicted of rape and murder and sent it to life in prison.
[02:27:38] 2014, he committed suicide by hanging.
[02:27:45] But why is that guy in the military?
[02:27:53] Here's the closer of this book.
[02:27:57] One of the lessons of McMarr's Project, Condord K,
[02:28:00] is that the low-appitude individuals should never be used in war zone or in a dangerous,
[02:28:04] re-rational on areas, putting their lives at risk as cruel and immoral,
[02:28:08] and on sheer practical level, it degrades the effectiveness of war efforts.
[02:28:13] The least intelligent among us should never be viewed as expendable units of man powers.
[02:28:19] But as our fellow so-journers on this fragile earth, deserving respect and compassion,
[02:28:24] and gratitude for the contributions they make to our families and our society.
[02:28:28] While vowing to never again induct people with intellectual disabilities,
[02:28:34] American should also heed warnings by military leaders that it is a mistake to take inductees
[02:28:39] who have criminal backgrounds, medical defects, social maladjustment, and psychiatric disorders.
[02:28:46] The armed forces need and deserve the best and the brightest.
[02:28:52] One of the wisest quotations that I recorded earlier in this book comes from Lieutenant Colonel
[02:28:57] John Leslie John Shellhase, a World War II veteran who helped create Project Hundred K,
[02:29:04] but who strongly opposed ascending the men in a combat.
[02:29:08] Coat wars are not one by using marginal man powers can and fodder,
[02:29:15] but rather by risking and sometimes losing the flower of a nation's youth.
[02:29:21] So, there you have it. Not exactly an uplifting book, definitely worth buying,
[02:29:35] definitely worth reading, but it's not gonna. Not gonna make you feel any better about things.
[02:29:43] And then this is the one why read it. What do we take away from it? Why we talk about on this podcast?
[02:29:48] Because what can we learn from it? That's the thing. What can we learn from it?
[02:29:54] And I think one of the big things we can learn from it is you have to push back. You have to
[02:30:01] question, you have to question authority. Authority is not always right. Just because someone is
[02:30:04] in a position of authority doesn't mean they're right. And in fact, an indicator of them not being
[02:30:11] right is when they impose things on you. That's an indicator that they're not right. If you have to
[02:30:16] impose something on someone, it's an indication that you're what you're doing is not right.
[02:30:20] And if you're having something imposed on you, that's an indication that whoever's
[02:30:23] imposing on it is not right. Or at least they're not confirmed. Because if I have to impose
[02:30:30] something on you, why? Why? If I can't explain to you how this is gonna help you, help your family,
[02:30:37] help your community, help your country, if I can't explain that to you. And the only way I can
[02:30:41] get you to do something is by imposing on you, there's a good chance it's wrong. So again, back to my
[02:30:51] earlier emotional reaction to the draft Dodgers, right? So it's I understand it. Once I took a step back,
[02:31:00] you you understand. It's look, I understand it. Does it still make me angry that there's people
[02:31:08] that look, can you imagine watching your again, I'm gonna get emotional, but you watch your neighbor
[02:31:15] go off to war while you stay at home. There's something wrong with that picture. So from that level,
[02:31:22] I don't, I can't understand it can't agree with it. When you start looking at it from a level of,
[02:31:27] oh, this is being imposed on the country. And the leadership can't explain why it's happening.
[02:31:32] And they're trying to sell it to us and they can't even sell it to us. They can't. So they have to impose.
[02:31:40] So we have a moral responsibility to question authority, to question the government,
[02:31:47] to figure out what it is we're actually doing. And you know, you take a guy like McNamara,
[02:31:55] I could probably, we should probably do a huge podcast about McNamara at some point.
[02:31:59] Um, because he, all the things that I talk about for bad leadership, he knocks a bunch of them out of the
[02:32:07] park. Uh, he, he doesn't understand people. He only listens to statistics. There's a, there's a,
[02:32:15] I know you like biases. Eccotrals. Yes. The McNamara fallacy. You've heard of that. The McNamara
[02:32:22] bias. That's when you just go off a statistics. You just look at the numbers and you make a decision based
[02:32:30] on your quantitative observations. And that's it based on the metrics. They're metrics. They're
[02:32:35] like, that's what we're doing. It's a fallacy. It doesn't account for emotions. It doesn't account
[02:32:40] for personalities. It doesn't account for the human side of things. And it doesn't work.
[02:32:45] So we can learn about leadership by reading this book. And we can learn clearly that we also have a
[02:32:56] moral obligation to protect people that are weak, protect people that are mentally and physically
[02:33:03] disabled. And we need to be empathetic to other people to understand what they're where they're
[02:33:09] coming from. Like you read about some of those leaders in this book where, you know, the platoon commander
[02:33:14] took the the the McNamara 100K soldier took them under his wing, protected him took care of them.
[02:33:22] And there's a bunch of examples and they're like that. Don't put people in the positions that
[02:33:29] they cannot handle. And I'm not talking about don't push people, but don't put them in a
[02:33:34] situation, especially if they're going to be hazardous to them, where they can get hurt or killed
[02:33:39] if they haven't been trained if they're not capable of doing that thing. Certainly don't put them in danger.
[02:33:49] What does that mean? It means be a good freaky human being. That's what it means.
[02:33:53] Be a good person. That's what I learned. Yeah, did they, I mean, one day kind of laid that out.
[02:34:03] Like all this program is going to have this this benefit on these people who otherwise
[02:34:09] wouldn't have these benefits. They're going to be trained. They're going to be more capable
[02:34:11] and all this stuff or whatever. And it's like, you kind of wondered, did they believe that? Because
[02:34:19] if you do like us, what's the opposite of a straw man? I think it's called, I don't know, the tiger
[02:34:23] man. I don't know, whatever. I think it's still man. Still man. So steel man argument for that is kind of like,
[02:34:29] yeah, like there are success stories and those success stories kind of play out exactly how they're
[02:34:34] purporting. This is going to end up like everyone. But like I said, like it's not a vacuum and it's
[02:34:42] not, you know, people are different. And when you kind of take it as a whole, the reality sets in where
[02:34:47] it's like, no man, this is going to leave people straight up dead, confused, freaking like
[02:34:54] worse off, you know, because all of the unintended consequences. But you wonder like, I wonder if
[02:35:02] that was on purpose that they're kind of like, oh, yeah, maybe all these other consequences or did
[02:35:07] they really kind of think that. Yeah, that's you could see that McNamara is surrounded by
[02:35:15] Yesmen. So here's the thing, I might believe something. But I'm surrounded by people that be a
[02:35:21] hedgehog, that might not be the best idea. And I'll even say that myself. Wait, am I really,
[02:35:26] are we really going to take a kid from some rural area that's got a fourth grade education that's
[02:35:33] got an IQ of 60 and we're going to turn their lives around or take some kid from the inner city ghetto.
[02:35:40] And all of a sudden, oh, the inner city ghetto kid with an IQ of 64 is going to be like, oh,
[02:35:46] great. I'm looking forward to following orders and peeling potatoes in the US army. Like,
[02:35:50] we impose, we overlay our thoughts on the people that we have no idea what they're like.
[02:35:58] Yeah, and that's the point, right there where you have no idea. Yeah, you're like, oh, yeah,
[02:36:01] this guy's going to be more capable. Like, well, how do you know, like even, I'm not saying no one's
[02:36:05] going to, but then you're you're counting for like so many people, so many different types of people,
[02:36:10] by the way. And you're assigning one, your sense, your solution. You're also assigning
[02:36:16] your values and your perspective to a bunch of other people. Yeah. Yeah. That's the worst part.
[02:36:21] You're assigning your values and your perspective to a bunch of other people, which is a freaking
[02:36:25] massive mistake. Well, of course, they're going to get on board. Of course, of course, they're going
[02:36:32] to get on board. Yeah. It doesn't happen. You don't want to see that you see that with your kids.
[02:36:36] You're like, I'm just like, so many kids would have killed for the opportunity to do this. Yeah,
[02:36:41] yeah. You know, you're like, you're imposing your your values and your perspective on other
[02:36:50] people. And it doesn't work. It doesn't work. Sure, Mac and Mirrors like, hey, this is, you know,
[02:36:56] Johnny from wherever this rural area in the middle of nowhere, whose main goal in life is to
[02:37:03] have freaking work at the service station because he likes cars. That's a good point with a kid's
[02:37:11] right. So my brother was talking to my daughter and he used like doing some math problem,
[02:37:17] you know, on the thing. Oh, yeah. And he's like, all in do it, you know, and then she tells
[02:37:22] she was like kind of bored with it. And she's like, oh, like, let's do something else wherever he's
[02:37:27] like, oh, no, no, math is fun. And then like, maybe my wife were looking at each other like, oh,
[02:37:32] what the hell is this good to go to? Is he thinking he's talking to you know, eight year old girl is
[02:37:38] going to be like, yeah, yeah. And there's a small population of the world that thinks it's fun.
[02:37:42] Yeah, maybe. Yeah, actually, one of them. And he and Jade, Jade Charles, not going to be
[02:37:48] all the imposes perspectives on her. Oh, yeah. So that's another good thing to be very careful of
[02:37:54] that McNamara can teach us because in his mind, everyone's just thinking the way he's thinking.
[02:37:59] And then surrounded by a bunch of yes men that are saying, yeah, of course, little Johnny and
[02:38:03] the rural area or this kid down in the ghetto, Johnny and the ghetto is going to be just down
[02:38:08] for the cause. Yeah, they're going to be capable of what a great opportunity. Right. Right.
[02:38:12] Great opportunity. Yeah. Well, oh, you're going to send me to freaking army boot camp.
[02:38:17] That sounds like a great opportunity to thank you so much for this educational opportunity.
[02:38:21] Yeah. And thinking he's all benevolent. It's a good question that you posed. Did they actually
[02:38:26] believe that or was that just propaganda? It's a good question. I get my guesses. They believed it.
[02:38:33] Yeah, especially if it's not. But the thing is the army got the uniform.
[02:38:38] My people's are going to do no bad call. Not going to work.
[02:38:42] Then again, think about it because you could see like one of these people, especially if you're
[02:38:46] used to just like handling people and that with that kind of numbers, you know, we need a thousand
[02:38:51] guys here. We need 10,000 guys. Like who are we going to put? Like you're not dealing with
[02:38:56] he actual human beings anymore in your head. You're like, oh, get the guys who don't have
[02:39:01] nothing to live for. Throw them in the air. Yeah. You know, we'll give an opportunity. Yeah.
[02:39:05] Fuh. They should be happy. They should be thankful. When I started teaching Jiu Jitsu to like
[02:39:10] team guys, the funny thing is I thought that every I thought that I would have a
[02:39:19] rate of acceptance and wanting to train of 100%. Everybody, hey, that when I show this to you,
[02:39:27] you're going to 100% I'm going to, well, how am I going to do this? How am I going to train all
[02:39:31] these guys all the time? They're just going to want to train. I'm not doing the morning or through
[02:39:35] the night when we train all the time, I imposed my perspective on everybody and my values on it.
[02:39:41] And the reality is I would get probably out of every 20 people, 20 people out of
[02:39:49] introduced Jitsu, one out of 20 would be into it. See, and even that kind of maybe is my bias,
[02:39:56] but that to me seems like that's a reasonable expectation. That's how long you've got to tell
[02:40:00] wrong I am and I am an actual seal. It's not like I'm talking about some other group of people.
[02:40:08] This is I'm a seal I've been a seal for 10 years at this point and I'm thinking, oh, of course,
[02:40:14] anyone that I show this to is going to be bought in one of those train all the time. You know seals?
[02:40:18] You know what I think? Yeah, for sure. So I was wrong. I'm wrong. And that's one of those things.
[02:40:26] It's saying that you have C2 when I went to Virginia and watch the UFC. It's the same thing. I
[02:40:30] realized I'm wrong. That's another thing. You teaching guys to Jitsu. I'm wrong. Not everyone's into it.
[02:40:35] Not everyone thinks I got to think. Some people think way better than me. Some people think different than me.
[02:40:40] But I cannot overlay my perspective on people and neither can you. So don't do it. Watch out
[02:40:46] if you're doing that. It's a bias. I want to what that bias is called. When I overlay my perspective on you,
[02:40:54] I think everyone thinks the way I think. They don't. In fact, almost no one thinks the way
[02:41:00] you think. And that's a funny thing. Team guys do think alike. There's a whole lot of group think going on.
[02:41:06] You know, everyone likes certain stuff. There's a huge overlap for the amount of people that are in the
[02:41:12] seals. The venn diagram of like interest and what we think is funny and what we think is cool.
[02:41:17] It's a big overlap. And I'll tell you what, in the 90s it was an even bigger overlap.
[02:41:22] Because there was a much less culture that you were exposed to because you didn't have the internet.
[02:41:25] So you know, if you were going to get exposed to music, it was going to be from some other team guy.
[02:41:30] That was going to be checked this band out. Alice and chains. Okay, cool. Let me check it out.
[02:41:34] There was no one introducing you to some random band from Ohio that you never heard of. Whereas now you can just
[02:41:40] battle just pop up on your stream. So in the 90s, it was a much more unified group.
[02:41:49] And that's why that to each team had its own little personality. And each put tune inside the team had its own little personality.
[02:41:58] Now the world is more, there's so many more fractions that you can get into.
[02:42:04] Which when you think of it from a global perspective is bringing people together.
[02:42:09] Because now everyone listens to more music. Everyone sees a bunch of movies.
[02:42:14] When I grew up, music was a thing. A record cost freaking, you know, 799, which was a lot of money.
[02:42:25] So you didn't buy a bunch of records. You didn't get to listen to a bunch of different music.
[02:42:30] Not like now what you can listen to anything you want. You hear of a band for one split second.
[02:42:35] You can get their whole catalog for nothing.
[02:42:37] That's too home. Like, see, but remember, even like movies, like you'd have to go buy the tape.
[02:42:46] Yeah, and everyone in 1985, everyone saw the movie. Because it was only nine movies.
[02:42:54] Everyone saw. Yeah. It's true. Everyone heard the song.
[02:42:58] Everyone knew that album because everyone had that album. That was the only album that was to get 1984
[02:43:04] by Van Hale and every single person I knew had that album.
[02:43:07] Yeah.
[02:43:07] In 1984.
[02:43:09] Every, that's crazy, right? Every single person knew that.
[02:43:13] I don't know any hit songs right now. I'm on any of them.
[02:43:16] I don't even know what a hit song. Is there such a big anymore?
[02:43:20] I don't know, but I'm listening to music.
[02:43:23] I'm listening to it. I'm even listening to new music that's coming out.
[02:43:26] But I'm not listening to what everyone else is listening to.
[02:43:31] So we have a less unified situation.
[02:43:33] But if that makes it even harder for me to impose my little ideas on you and
[02:43:38] and transfer my values on to you. Don't work.
[02:43:44] Sure. All right. Well, we want to help people.
[02:43:48] You know, we definitely want to help people out. And let's talk about some things that might be
[02:43:54] able to help people out. Yeah. We here are doing a few things to help people.
[02:44:01] Because we are on this path. And if we're not, we're trying to be most of us.
[02:44:05] I'm not just going to impose my, I'm not just going to assume.
[02:44:09] Mm-hmm.
[02:44:09] It's not what I'm going to do.
[02:44:10] So here's the deal. What are, what is it that people may need in the world right now?
[02:44:14] I can tell you one thing that people mean from time to time.
[02:44:17] Sometimes you need a little extra.
[02:44:20] Let's call it energy.
[02:44:23] Energy helps for sure.
[02:44:24] Because the energy will help you to get through.
[02:44:27] Maybe you got to work, to do.
[02:44:29] Maybe you got to work out to do. Maybe you got the Gitsu to do.
[02:44:31] Maybe you want to stretch. Maybe you want to get up.
[02:44:34] This stuff we got to do. Maybe you got to just focus on getting done with some work.
[02:44:38] So you can go work out. Yeah.
[02:44:39] So sometimes you need some energy.
[02:44:41] Just. We made some energy. We made some energy.
[02:44:44] We're leasing projects that we're releasing in energy into your brain and body.
[02:44:48] Yes. So if you're, if you're into energy drinks or
[02:44:53] you think you might benefit again. This is me just not imposing my, my way to second.
[02:44:58] Even if you're not in energy drinks because you might not be.
[02:45:00] There's a good chance I wasn't in energy drinks.
[02:45:02] Oh, yeah, especially if it's for a reason.
[02:45:04] Because the reason I wasn't in energy drinks is because they were made of poison.
[02:45:07] Yes. And I wasn't going to put poison into my body.
[02:45:11] No, no.
[02:45:11] Despite the fact that it might give me a short term gain of like a little bit of hype.
[02:45:17] Then I have a long crash. I have health issues. I have a whole deal.
[02:45:20] Yep. So what I'm not doing that?
[02:45:22] Nope. We got a good news. We got a new era of energy drinks.
[02:45:25] Uh, Jocco discipline go.
[02:45:28] Energy drink all healthy. No sugar.
[02:45:32] It's sweet still.
[02:45:33] Mm-hmm.
[02:45:34] Good.
[02:45:34] Monk fruit.
[02:45:34] Got the monk fruit. See?
[02:45:36] So good stuff. No artificial stuff in there.
[02:45:39] Not all natural. No preservatives even.
[02:45:42] So this is a healthy energy drink.
[02:45:44] Yeah.
[02:45:45] Good. Good front side. Good back side.
[02:45:47] Boom. Good to go.
[02:45:48] You'll be healthy to be better.
[02:45:50] Strong strategic and tactical.
[02:45:51] This has to go in straight.
[02:45:53] Take a good one. So yes, you're correct.
[02:45:55] You can not be into energy drinks per se and still be into this.
[02:45:59] And it's helpful on this path that one.
[02:46:01] So we're good.
[02:46:02] So we are good to go. So check those out.
[02:46:04] Yes, check those out.
[02:46:06] You know, try once you which flavor is your favorite?
[02:46:09] We got powder too.
[02:46:10] By the way, yeah.
[02:46:11] You can get a powdered form of that.
[02:46:12] You get a powdered discipline go.
[02:46:14] We work out.
[02:46:16] Yeah.
[02:46:16] Oh yeah.
[02:46:17] And that's another good one where the traditional pre-workout.
[02:46:21] I can see why people are not into that. Here's a thing.
[02:46:23] I'll even admit it.
[02:46:24] I was kind of, I got off from for various reasons for kind of the reason we're talking about.
[02:46:28] It's like I know the benefits of a traditional pre-workout.
[02:46:32] But you got to EPA a price with those, you know,
[02:46:34] with all the stuff in them and all this stuff.
[02:46:35] And you kind of get, there's like this itchy feeling
[02:46:39] that you get on your face and all this stuff from the pre-workout.
[02:46:43] It is weird.
[02:46:43] But when it comes with that booster, whatever you kind of accept it,
[02:46:48] then you kind of embrace it, then it's kind of like, yeah,
[02:46:49] you know, it's working kind of a thing.
[02:46:51] But after a while, you're like,
[02:46:53] I don't know if I should be taking this stuff for a while.
[02:46:56] So I kind of stopped.
[02:46:57] But this one's not like that.
[02:46:58] So this pre-workout discipline go pre-workout.
[02:47:02] Doesn't give you all that weird jittery, all that weird,
[02:47:05] downside, the itchy face, even though some of us might still like it,
[02:47:10] even though that's not very beneficial in the workout.
[02:47:11] You just working out with itchy face, working out with that,
[02:47:14] with not an itchy face.
[02:47:16] That's the only difference.
[02:47:17] Almost for as HVs goes, but still gives you the good workout,
[02:47:22] the vaso dilation that we look for.
[02:47:24] Yeah, really good.
[02:47:26] So you got the, you got the pills, by the way,
[02:47:29] if you need to take that quicker.
[02:47:31] And look, then you're going to go blast the workout.
[02:47:33] Blah, shrap, yes.
[02:47:35] And then guys where you need to,
[02:47:37] it's a protein, yeah, I think it needs to protein the recovery.
[02:47:39] I have an announcement to make to the world.
[02:47:42] Right on me.
[02:47:43] Um, you know Elvis Presley,
[02:47:46] I guess the last thing that he ate before he died was a peanut butter
[02:47:50] banana sandwich.
[02:47:51] Oh, okay.
[02:47:52] Now this is the King of Rock and Roll.
[02:47:54] You don't understand?
[02:47:55] Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes.
[02:47:56] The King of Rock and Roll.
[02:47:57] We have to, we have to hold his opinions
[02:48:02] at some level of reverence because he is the King of Rock and Roll.
[02:48:06] Sure.
[02:48:07] Now unfortunately for him, he won healthy, right?
[02:48:09] You've got the, you know, things got the best of him.
[02:48:12] Maybe the peanut butter, he had fried peanut butter and banana sandwiches, right?
[02:48:16] Oh, the sandwich was fried.
[02:48:18] Yeah.
[02:48:18] Upside taste.
[02:48:20] Real good, right?
[02:48:21] Downside, just off there.
[02:48:23] There's a lot of downside.
[02:48:25] Yes, sir.
[02:48:26] There's a lot of downside.
[02:48:27] So we can, we can actually have an upside upside.
[02:48:30] You want that taste?
[02:48:31] Take, get some peanut butter,
[02:48:34] mok, get some banana cream mok,
[02:48:37] put one screw of each and you got yourself a little treat.
[02:48:40] Oh, you got yourself a little Elvis treat.
[02:48:43] I'll tell you if you want a boost down one,
[02:48:45] which that's a good move right there.
[02:48:46] And I'm literally going to try that.
[02:48:47] That's so good.
[02:48:49] So you get one scoop banana, banana cream bomber to be specific.
[02:48:53] One scoop peanut butter chocolate.
[02:48:55] Then you put half a cup chocolate milk.
[02:48:58] The milk.
[02:48:59] The rest regular milk or I'm milk whatever you like.
[02:49:03] And then one frozen banana.
[02:49:04] Seems like oh and one scoop peanut butter.
[02:49:06] But this is untested what you're talking about.
[02:49:08] This is my hypothesis.
[02:49:09] Before you do that, try what I just said.
[02:49:11] Yeah.
[02:49:12] Mix your fluid of choice almond milk, coconut milk.
[02:49:17] What, what, what's other one?
[02:49:18] Oat milk, I guess.
[02:49:20] Or dairy milk.
[02:49:21] Or regular milk.
[02:49:22] Just try one and one and tell me what you think.
[02:49:25] Before you used to go crazy before you're out there
[02:49:28] getting chocolate milk down the store.
[02:49:30] Get your up, tell us these banana out the freezer.
[02:49:32] I'm an advocate of getting cream.
[02:49:36] Because it's one of those things where you have like the perfect base.
[02:49:39] Because you don't need anything additional.
[02:49:40] You don't need this perfect.
[02:49:42] As far as like just to the handsman.
[02:49:43] Oh, I got video that you make.
[02:49:46] Yeah, something like that.
[02:49:47] Yeah, exactly.
[02:49:49] So yes, perfect.
[02:49:50] Best tasting protein that there is.
[02:49:53] Really?
[02:49:53] Yeah, it's a boom.
[02:49:55] That's going to help you up.
[02:49:55] Get yourself some more.
[02:49:56] Get yourself some mobility and joint health.
[02:49:59] Right?
[02:49:59] That's where we got that joint warfare that criloil.
[02:50:01] Go, go read reviews of of either one of those two.
[02:50:05] Let's see what's up.
[02:50:06] Yeah.
[02:50:06] That's true.
[02:50:07] Yeah.
[02:50:07] Also, you need every, oh yeah, you go on that immunity.
[02:50:10] You do.
[02:50:10] Yeah, we do want the immunity.
[02:50:13] So immunity and joint, by the way, is one of those things we're
[02:50:15] men until you get compromised.
[02:50:17] It gets compromised.
[02:50:18] Like not.
[02:50:19] We might not think about it all the time.
[02:50:21] But boom, you got to stay ahead of that train right there.
[02:50:24] So yes, vitamin D3 and SAA product substance.
[02:50:29] Capitals called Cold War.
[02:50:31] Oh, man, those will keep you out of a jam for sure.
[02:50:33] Out of the jam.
[02:50:34] I'll see if your kids get some more of your kid milk for those kids.
[02:50:37] We don't want to poison our children.
[02:50:38] No.
[02:50:39] Seems obvious.
[02:50:40] You wouldn't even think you'd need to say that.
[02:50:42] And yet go to the store and look at what people are buying.
[02:50:44] To feed their children.
[02:50:46] They're going to feed their children poison.
[02:50:49] Don't do that.
[02:50:49] Get them some more of your kid milk.
[02:50:50] By the way, they're super stoked.
[02:50:53] Only product, this is the most unified product where the parents want it as much as the
[02:50:58] kids.
[02:50:58] The parents, the kids want it as much as the parents want them to have it.
[02:51:02] Because your kids like, oh, I want my kid to be strong.
[02:51:04] Yeah.
[02:51:05] And healthy.
[02:51:06] Cool.
[02:51:06] And the kids like I want something that tastes awesome.
[02:51:08] Cool.
[02:51:09] You might be, you probably are kind of past this.
[02:51:13] You've probably been out of this game for a while, but getting little kids to eat their dinner,
[02:51:19] right?
[02:51:20] Either whatever.
[02:51:21] And then the kid being like a picky eater or whatever.
[02:51:24] Right?
[02:51:25] So that's like a challenge.
[02:51:26] I'm a picky eater.
[02:51:27] I'm a picky eater.
[02:51:28] I'm still in that.
[02:51:29] I'm still in that game for years.
[02:51:31] But that can be a challenge with the kids.
[02:51:32] You just want to get them fed into bed.
[02:51:34] You don't starve your kids.
[02:51:35] And then, you know, you're not going to force feed.
[02:51:37] So it becomes a thing, right?
[02:51:39] So sometimes the easy path is to be like, you know, let me just get them.
[02:51:44] I'm going to get this food down on them and, you know, he's not starving or whatever.
[02:51:48] She's not starving.
[02:51:49] But here's the thing.
[02:51:51] So in that battle, because that can be a battle.
[02:51:53] I'm not saying for everybody, but that's a common battle that I hear about.
[02:51:56] This is one of those just a small, one of those solutions.
[02:52:01] Or it's like, yep, they're not going to protest.
[02:52:03] They're going to love that one.
[02:52:04] And then boom, they get their protein, they get their nutrients.
[02:52:07] Perfect.
[02:52:08] Everything we're talking about, you can get it at jockelfiel.com.
[02:52:11] We also get some tea.
[02:52:12] If you need some tea, some chocolate, tea there.
[02:52:15] Jockelfiel.com.
[02:52:16] If you subscribe to any of these things, you get free shipping.
[02:52:20] That way we can compete with the global corporations that are just shipping stuff to you
[02:52:27] for nothing, but they're getting theirs.
[02:52:30] Of course, I mean they're getting theirs.
[02:52:32] So if you want to, if you want to do that, jockelfiel.com, subscribe to get free shipping.
[02:52:35] Also, you can get the drinks out, wallwaw.
[02:52:39] Where?
[02:52:40] Wallwaw.
[02:52:41] What?
[02:52:42] And the vitamin shop, you can get all the products at the vitamin shop.
[02:52:44] So go check those out.
[02:52:46] So there you go.
[02:52:47] Also, origin, USA.
[02:52:48] This is where you can get your American made jeans, boots, some wallets on there.
[02:52:52] A bunch of good stuff.
[02:52:53] Jiu Jitsu stuff, geese.
[02:52:54] Now here's the thing.
[02:52:55] They're not just like regular freaking generic-ish stuff.
[02:53:02] You know, Neil Blackbelt, Neil.
[02:53:04] Anyways, I was wrong with him.
[02:53:08] And he trains MMA during the day.
[02:53:12] It's probably why you don't know him because you don't train MMA during the day.
[02:53:16] But he happened to throw geon the other day and we were rolling.
[02:53:20] And he like grabbed my geek.
[02:53:22] And then he was all like, hey, what is this?
[02:53:25] He started cursing me.
[02:53:26] He started cursing me.
[02:53:27] He like stopped rolling to ask me about it.
[02:53:28] I got it.
[02:53:29] That bro.
[02:53:30] This is the, this is called the Rift.
[02:53:32] That makes complete sense to me.
[02:53:33] And that's how all of it is, too, by the way.
[02:53:35] So I have two pairs of Delta 68 jeans.
[02:53:39] I have the factory jeans.
[02:53:41] Even when you put those on, you're like, oh, there's a little bit more to these.
[02:53:44] Just from us, like, a physical presence.
[02:53:48] Presence standpoint.
[02:53:49] Yes, sir.
[02:53:50] So yes, they, you know, they're, the origin USA.com, so you can get this stuff.
[02:53:57] But this, there's, okay, American made, yes, we'll get to that.
[02:54:00] But a lot goes into this from the beginning to the end.
[02:54:04] Yeah, when you put it on, you can tell.
[02:54:06] And you can also tell it's made in America.
[02:54:08] Yes, sir.
[02:54:08] You can tell it's made in America.
[02:54:10] When you see people bringing back machines from overseas, which we literally brought back
[02:54:18] machines from overseas to start making stuff back here and make more stuff back in
[02:54:22] America.
[02:54:23] I mean, come on.
[02:54:24] Are you serious right now?
[02:54:25] Yeah, we're serious.
[02:54:26] Why?
[02:54:27] We want to, we want to help people.
[02:54:29] We want to help our communities.
[02:54:31] We want to help our country.
[02:54:32] How do you do that?
[02:54:33] Go get something for origin USA.com.
[02:54:36] Help everybody.
[02:54:37] You know, and be super comfortable.
[02:54:40] Boy.
[02:54:41] Yeah, it's good.
[02:54:42] So I feel like, I feel like my wardrobe is essentially taking over by origin stuff.
[02:54:50] Yeah.
[02:54:51] I've literally seen one of my old favorite sweat or sweat or hoodies, whatever.
[02:54:57] Literally sitting in front of me.
[02:54:58] And I spent 30 minutes looking for the origin one.
[02:55:02] There you go.
[02:55:03] Yep.
[02:55:04] You want that one?
[02:55:05] Yep.
[02:55:06] Pull it.
[02:55:07] Or do you want to say it?
[02:55:08] Also, chocolate store.
[02:55:09] You're going to represent while you're on this path.
[02:55:10] You want to represent discipline equals freedom.
[02:55:12] You want to shirt a hat, a hoodie.
[02:55:15] So you can get it.
[02:55:16] So yes, jokester.com.
[02:55:18] There's some new stuff on there.
[02:55:20] There's always new stuff on there.
[02:55:22] The GJ2 section.
[02:55:23] The GJ2 section is coming along.
[02:55:25] How many shirts are in the GJ2 section?
[02:55:26] We have a new one there.
[02:55:28] I don't know.
[02:55:29] Yeah.
[02:55:30] That's actually it.
[02:55:31] Well, we're completely, we're what he calls their intransit to be on.
[02:55:34] By the time this comes out, tomorrow might be on there.
[02:55:38] Maybe even not, I don't know.
[02:55:39] Either way, always new stuff on there.
[02:55:42] New stuff.
[02:55:43] Speaking of new stuff, shirt locker.
[02:55:45] New shirt every month.
[02:55:46] It's a subscription scenario.
[02:55:47] Are you going to new shirt every month if you don't know about this?
[02:55:50] It, the designs are a little bit different, but they're very appropriate.
[02:55:53] Very appropriate.
[02:55:54] How you finally found what are you going to say?
[02:55:56] You used to say like, well, they're kind of it.
[02:55:57] Now you're saying appropriate.
[02:55:58] I like it.
[02:55:59] A appropriate space to be.
[02:56:00] Because that is the most accurate as of right now.
[02:56:02] I would agree with you.
[02:56:04] They are appropriate.
[02:56:05] All of them.
[02:56:06] Did you see that?
[02:56:07] No, that you didn't see.
[02:56:08] There's the February one, which is, it's not February.
[02:56:11] Yeah.
[02:56:12] So you got to wait for that.
[02:56:13] I think you might.
[02:56:14] You might appreciate that.
[02:56:16] Okay.
[02:56:17] Check out.
[02:56:18] Speaking of subscription, subscribe to this podcast wherever you subscribe to podcast.
[02:56:21] Leave a review so that I can make fun of Eccled Charles for what you say about
[02:56:25] him.
[02:56:26] Sure.
[02:56:27] We also have the unraveling podcast with Dery Cooper, grounded podcast, which themes
[02:56:32] been hit me up once again, to the grounded game.
[02:56:35] So probably make that happen where your kid podcast you.
[02:56:40] You can also join us on the underground, joc on the ground.com.
[02:56:44] Look, where we are we, are we nervous about people getting canceled and banned and all
[02:56:51] this other stuff?
[02:56:52] I'm not nervous.
[02:56:53] I don't stay up at night thinking about it.
[02:56:56] But is it smart to just sit around and not pay attention?
[02:56:59] No, it's not.
[02:57:00] You can see people literally getting removed from platforms right now.
[02:57:08] They removed Joe Rogan had a guest on who's a Harvard doctor.
[02:57:16] And they didn't like what he said.
[02:57:18] They removed it from YouTube, which is, which seems kind of crazy, right?
[02:57:21] Yeah.
[02:57:22] Very.
[02:57:23] So what is he saying that needs to be removed so no one can hear it?
[02:57:28] A Harvard medical doctor.
[02:57:33] And it's just a little clip.
[02:57:35] You know, a little clip?
[02:57:36] Oh, we're going to remove that.
[02:57:39] So look, am I staying awake?
[02:57:42] Not staying awake, but am I paying attention?
[02:57:43] Yes, I am.
[02:57:44] Do we need to have a contingency plan?
[02:57:45] Yes, we do.
[02:57:47] contingency plan.
[02:57:48] Joc on around dot com.
[02:57:56] You subscribe because $8.18 a month, then if anything ever happens to the platform,
[02:58:00] we'll be there.
[02:58:03] We'll be there.
[02:58:04] We'll do what we've got to do.
[02:58:05] I don't think it's going to happen.
[02:58:07] But that way we don't have to take on a bunch of sponsors that say,
[02:58:09] who could talk about that?
[02:58:11] We don't want you to talk about that.
[02:58:12] You said bad things about McNamara.
[02:58:15] Yeah.
[02:58:16] Right?
[02:58:17] You said bad things about Dick Cheney.
[02:58:21] Well, who's going to, what are they going to say?
[02:58:25] You said bad things about Bill Clinton.
[02:58:27] He's a draft Dodger and Mitt Romney.
[02:58:31] OK, well, maybe we'll just get taken down.
[02:58:33] No, not only underground.
[02:58:35] Underground's ours.
[02:58:38] So if you can't afford $8.18 a month, we still
[02:58:41] would end you still want to be in the game.
[02:58:44] Cool email assistance at joc on the ground.com.
[02:58:47] We'll take care of you.
[02:58:49] Also, we have a YouTube channel speaking of adding bananas
[02:58:53] and chocolate milk to milk.
[02:58:56] Sure.
[02:58:57] Usually on necessary.
[02:58:58] Some people might want to those kind of announcements.
[02:59:00] That way, I go to Charles does with some of his videos.
[02:59:02] Sure.
[02:59:05] Explosions, smoke, fire, music.
[02:59:09] I'm making a video with explosions.
[02:59:13] More.
[02:59:14] Gunfire than anything.
[02:59:15] It's a small explosion.
[02:59:17] No, no, I think that's just the heads up for you, though.
[02:59:19] So there you go.
[02:59:20] Subscribe to that.
[02:59:21] Also, words in USA has a, if you want to know what's
[02:59:24] happening in America with American manufacturing
[02:59:27] that words in USA, subscribe to their YouTube channel as well.
[02:59:31] We have psychological warfare.
[02:59:34] What's that all about?
[02:59:35] It's an album.
[02:59:36] So an album, me and Jocco, Jocco, and I
[02:59:39] made to facilitate my moments of weakness.
[02:59:43] And I got a bunch.
[02:59:44] Had a bunch.
[02:59:46] Jocco talking me through weakness free now.
[02:59:48] Are you weakness free?
[02:59:49] Well, let's see.
[02:59:52] We're never really weak.
[02:59:53] No worries, never.
[02:59:54] Always.
[02:59:55] But look, if you ever had a thought of man, I wish I had
[03:00:00] Jocco kind of in my ear just to let me know everyone's
[03:00:03] and like give me a little psychological spot when I
[03:00:06] come across these moments, that's exactly what this is.
[03:00:09] So yeah, psychological warfare.
[03:00:10] Get it where you can get any MP3s and boom.
[03:00:13] Jocco got you speaking of reminders of staying on the path.
[03:00:17] Subsidecamist.com to code a Meyer.
[03:00:20] One of my favorite dudes in the world.
[03:00:24] It's awesome when your heroes are your friends.
[03:00:25] Dakota Meyer's got a company called FlipsideCampist.com.
[03:00:28] He's making cool stuff to hang on your wall.
[03:00:31] Check that out.
[03:00:32] We also have some books.
[03:00:33] Final spin.
[03:00:36] Read it.
[03:00:37] Explore your brain a little bit.
[03:00:40] See where it ends up.
[03:00:42] Take a little emotional roller coaster override.
[03:00:46] Also leadership strategy and tactics field manual.
[03:00:48] The code evaluation, the protocols discipline
[03:00:50] goes freedom field manual.
[03:00:51] Way the warrior kid 1, 2, 3 and 4.
[03:00:54] Get that book for the freaking kids.
[03:00:55] You know, please, Mikey in the dragons about face by hack worth.
[03:01:00] I wrote the forward to the new version, extreme ownership,
[03:01:02] and the dichotomy of leadership.
[03:01:04] Also, I have echelon front, which is leadership
[03:01:06] consultancy.
[03:01:07] Leadership is the solution to your problems.
[03:01:11] So if you want to solve your problems in your organization,
[03:01:13] go to echelon front.com.
[03:01:16] So we can get details for all the training that we offer,
[03:01:19] including the master field training exercises,
[03:01:21] battle field, next semester's Dallas, Texas.
[03:01:25] March 24th and 24th and 24th.
[03:01:26] We also have online training, extreme ownership academy.
[03:01:31] If you want to take ownership of your life,
[03:01:36] if you want to learn the pragmatic methods
[03:01:39] to take ownership of your life,
[03:01:41] you want to learn how to interact with other people.
[03:01:43] You want to learn how to settle down problem situations.
[03:01:47] You want to learn how to detach and not get emotional
[03:01:50] when you shouldn't get emotional.
[03:01:53] You want to learn how to lead and you want to learn how to follow
[03:01:56] and you want to learn how to move forward in your life.
[03:01:59] Go to extremeownership.com.
[03:02:00] That's what we're teaching there.
[03:02:02] I'm on there all the time live.
[03:02:04] You want to ask me a question?
[03:02:05] Come ask me a question.
[03:02:07] Come and ask me a question there.
[03:02:09] Extremeownership.com.
[03:02:11] If you want to help service members,
[03:02:12] active and retired your families,
[03:02:15] gold store families.
[03:02:16] Take out Mark Lee's mom, Mama Lee.
[03:02:18] She's got a charity organization.
[03:02:20] If you want to donate or you want to get involved
[03:02:22] to go to America's MightyW warriors.org.
[03:02:26] And if you want more of my doom,
[03:02:27] fill diet tribes.
[03:02:30] Or you need more of Echo's distracting dialogue.
[03:02:33] You can find us on the other web's on the gram,
[03:02:37] on Facebook, on Twitter,
[03:02:39] on Getter.
[03:02:41] Get it.
[03:02:43] Echo's at Echo Charles.
[03:02:44] I am at Jockel Willink.
[03:02:47] And thanks to all the military members in uniform right now,
[03:02:51] doing what needs to be done to protect our freedom
[03:02:54] and our way of life.
[03:02:56] The same goes to police law enforcement,
[03:02:59] firefighters, paramedics, EMTs, dispatchers,
[03:03:01] correction officers, Border Patrol, secret service,
[03:03:04] and all first responders out there.
[03:03:05] Thank you for protecting our way of life here at home.
[03:03:09] And everyone else out there.
[03:03:11] Remember to make yourself as capable as possible,
[03:03:16] strong, fast, smart, and then remember that there are people
[03:03:25] who are not as capable as you are.
[03:03:28] Not because they're lazy or lax today is a good or lack worth
[03:03:31] at work ethic, but they simply do not have the capacity.
[03:03:35] And then do your best to help those people out,
[03:03:40] which is part of being a good person,
[03:03:44] and will make their world, and thereby our world
[03:03:49] just a little bit better.
[03:03:52] Thanks for listening.
[03:03:54] And until next time,
[03:03:55] this is Echo and Jockel.
[03:03:57] Bye.