Jocko Podcast 312: Black Hawk Down. Night Stalkers Never Quit. With Mike Durant

2021-12-17T03:41:47Z

Underground Premium Content: https://www.jockounderground.com/subscribe Join the conversation on Twitter/Instagram: @jockowillink @mikedurantal @echocharles 0:00:00 - Opening 0:05:15 - Mike Durant 3:05:47 - How to stay on THE PATH JOCKO UNDERGROUND Exclusive Episodes: https://www.jockounderground.com/subscribe Jocko Store Apparel: https://www.jockostore.com Jocko Fuel: https://jockofuel.com Origin Jeans and Clothes: https://originmaine.com/durable-goods/ Echelon Front: https://www.echelonfront.com 3:28:49 - Closing gratitude.

AI summary of episode

so We really focused heavily on land nav with a map, you know planning drawing lines on a map and being able to hit that target Even if your systems go down and that's hard to do because especially when you start relying on the technology because then you It's like getting over here today, you know, I mean to think about where I was going I hit Uber Put the address in you know, I didn't even know how long it would take until I I'd punched all that stuff in But if you rely too heavily on that you know and things really matter like you know getting Getting soft operators on a target you got to be able to do it no matter what so there's a lot of a lot of focus on that manual stuff and Some people just aren't very adept at that But you know for Donovan and I want to clock in the morning flying on this mission with two Apache's to go down the Rio Hado to support this airfield seizure I mean we're sort of in disbelief, you know because how many times you get spun up and spun that you know They were gonna go we're gonna go and then we're not going and then that 2000 pound bomb goes off at Precisely one a. You know we all bash our our our the other services, you know There are no engineers good as us, but I will give the Air Force credit that bomb hit Precisely at one o'clock in the morning and it was a pretty big splash I mean 2000 pound bomb makes a heck of a flash in the middle of night We're in close Trying to take on people that you can't see There's a lot of ways to shoot a helicopter down and unfortunately this little bird got shot down a couple of days later Both pilots were killed, but but overall Just an incredible mission and you know ultimately we do end up getting men one or yaga and He gets flown out actually by Cliff Walcott who was flying with Jonathan Briley and Somalia when he lost his life So they were all one you know just one band of brothers, you know and Being able to participate and knows kind of ops and I actually ended up supporting Seals On the on the Colone side that was that was my mission we were You know trying to find Noria. Once you got over to To the 160 of so I actually ended up being in the first formal green platoon that the unit ever did before my class You'd basically just get assigned to a company and then your green platoon was Informal just did kind of the same things, but it wasn't a dedicated class and You know model somewhat after buds and some of the other training courses the unit realized We need a we need a dedicated course to get people through because there's too much of a burden on the unit The unit needs to be focused on executing you know missions and training the The the unit level the training of new people should be done by a dedicated training organization So they created this you know green platoon as it's called now and it includes you know all the typical stuff You kind of you know you say this in the book here those first few minutes of capture critical don't piss off your captors So you went into like the sear mode Instinctively right there at the crash site and you know it wasn't like You know, I made this conscious decision, you know the game is different now. and when I first got that assignment I'm like MetaVac You know, I don't want to go fly MetaVac I want to be you know in the 101st or You know one of the real you know go to war kind of units, but in the end Being in MetaVac was the best of time when I could get because you're by yourself You're you're constantly flying single ship missions I mean that decision was made in the moment and you don't know You know that the receivers gonna fall because he slipped on a Just like piece of grass, you know you're making a decision based on what you know at the time and and I would never criticize General Garrison for making that call But And I had to go back and and start the training you know things were starting to wind down I think Noria had been located and that the number of direct action missions was was scaling back You know we had control of the whole country so there wasn't any need to really You know keep flying as many missions that we had been flying so the commander decided hey go back Teach Green poll two and so I was only there Probably a week I mean you know to get all that done in a week that's why I say If there was something that I could be known for I wish it was that mission because it really was amazing I want people to listen to me and I want things to be an order So what better way to to make that happen than to join the military becoming officer people have to listen to me And things will be an order and And then inside the military as we know if I never go into combat and all I have to do is Keep the keep the the the the uniform squared away and keep my area clean I'm gonna get promoted because I'm gonna run things like an authoritarian now I'm horrible in combat because I can't control everything and it drives me crazy and I freak out But it attracts that kind of person and then you know Just as you were talking about being in the government and being in a being in a position where you're in control of things It can unfortunately attract the same kind of deranged of Foritarians that want to go in there and control everything but but they really don't I mean you look at some of the dialogue going on right now about Ukraine, you know some Our congressman said yesterday, you know, we would use nuclear weapons These people don't know what they're talking about you know Yeah, it was impossible We probably could have orbited for 20 minutes and would have not had full situation awareness Would you gotta have because I mean You know the the the the fratricide is not acceptable no matter what I mean and when that was our biggest concern So you go down Fast forward I woke up in the silence of my own grave at least that's what I believed in that first moment because the last flash of Consciousness I had clearly seen the clawing hand of the grim reaper I did not know where I was I did not know who I was it was like emerging from an altitude chamber with a case of Hypocce as my mind begin to stagger slowly through the dark dark and hallways of my concussed brain When my eyelids finally flooded open You know because we did a management meeting Over the phone over teams we do a a bi-weekly Where we just get everybody at the speed on what's going on and and you know is all about just simplifying the message You know because if you think about it from a Worker at the point of the spear is perspective that really helps You know that that's where the message needs to resonate and if I might understand it or the legal guy may understand it They just hadn't done it, you know, but you know, but you know To hear your perspective on you know battle hardened Convention on units out there kicking ass just like everybody else. Yeah, makes us think of you know how good we have it you know like like Mike Durant pointed out you know You'd meet the families and realize Well if it wasn't for them he wouldn't be here. Why I started the business I didn't want to sit on my porch at 75 thinking what if you know You got to you got to take the leap you got to you know take the chance right at these edge of what you're comfortable with and I'm you know succeed or fail. and I I didn't go right away Because I wasn't sure and what's this gonna feel like you know, I'm gonna watch my friends Essentially die on screen It actually seemed Fake to me because the rafters so it didn't have the emotional impact that I thought it might have For me and once it was over though because like I said that you know black-hawk down The credits are rolling and then you go from that bird to a Huey Right, did you think you were in nom when you're flying the Huey actually it feels like you get in the space shuttle I mean because you know It's like a maybe you get into a Ferrari if you drive a Toyota every day You know, I mean just seems very advanced. And then good you know sometimes things in life happen and they end up being good even though It's not what you wanted to have happened, but I got more experience Went to the instructor pilot course, you know got a bunch of night vision goggle time all things It really helped before you make that leap to the to the soft world and so then you spend that time at the hundred first and your your Are you figuring out more about the night stalkers at this time you learn and more? I really do you know on it again it goes back to just The stuff you learn as a kid, you know you treat others the way you want to be treated you You don't act like a jerk, you know that they're Muslim and when it was prior time I was respectful And you know the more you fly around an area the more familiar you get so you're more likely to get on target the way you need to so all that combined meant we were flying just about every day and every night Going into three October when you how often would you conduct an actual mission like a hit So October third is is my eighth Real op in six weeks how often were the guys getting contacted on these previous operations like enemy contact firefight Someone it started to ramp up you know on the first couple nothing because we had the element of surprise and When I when I had that moment on the beach I said I'm getting this going again People don't realize now, you know everything we do is on our phone on you know Go log in the internet back then and you're filling out forms and you know making copies and and Putting it in an envelope so it was a it was a little bit of an adventure applying for flight school from overseas so you know we were all Now the grat I know something the ground guys don't like it a lot You know I wasn't there on the ground. And one thing I didn't know is that I was actually taken by a rival clan and Mark Bowden is the one who did Discovers this when he writes black-hawked out Of course this is according to Somalis I don't know if it's true or not but it makes sense if you think about the dynamics of those few few hours Because I did get moved a couple times and the characters did change so it's it's very likely I was in fact You know basically stole and by a rival plan and then the go-shaded to get back to the hobby of getter clan If it's not bizarre enough You get chained up I mean you know a true start-up like that in the defense contracting world is very difficult I mean most fail because it takes a long time to get contracts and if you have no past performance then You know why is anyone gonna give you any work? It's all about respect It's all about you know keeping it simple all those things that you know if you've come up from that part of the the ecosystem Maybe come natural to you by the way Doug Brown you reminded me when you said about your commander who told you about You know Where the quiet professionals not the sound professionals he is and he may he probably doesn't remember that and and And wouldn't likely deny it

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Episode transcript

[00:00:00] This is Jockel Podcast number 312.
[00:00:04] With echo Charles and me, Jockel Willink.
[00:00:06] Good evening, echo.
[00:00:07] Good evening.
[00:00:11] Something slammed into my helicopter.
[00:00:14] We didn't know what it was or where it had impacted,
[00:00:17] but the heelow bucked hard, like a small sports car
[00:00:20] going over a large speed bump.
[00:00:23] We'd been passing by the Olympic hotel for the third time
[00:00:25] doing 50 knots at about 75 feet
[00:00:27] when an RPG round rocketed into the tail section.
[00:00:32] But that was 35 feet behind me.
[00:00:35] The aircraft was 18,000 pounds of metal muscle
[00:00:38] then it certainly wasn't coming apart.
[00:00:41] At least not yet.
[00:00:44] I looked quietly.
[00:00:45] I looked quickly around the cockpit
[00:00:46] while Ray did the same.
[00:00:48] Both of us testing the controls and checking the gauges.
[00:00:52] Everything was in the green.
[00:00:54] No flight control problems, engine malfunctions
[00:00:57] or weird noises.
[00:00:59] No one in my bird said a word.
[00:01:02] And then super six four year hit bad.
[00:01:06] It was Matthews up in the C2 bird.
[00:01:09] You better put it on the ground.
[00:01:11] From his position high over the battle,
[00:01:13] he had seen the rocket impact just below my tail
[00:01:16] raking pieces away and pin wheels as it detonated.
[00:01:19] No shit, I thought as I rolled out of the turn.
[00:01:23] Just ahead, maybe a mile off was what appeared to be
[00:01:25] a clear area, certainly large enough to land a black hawk.
[00:01:29] But the aircraft seemed to be flying normally
[00:01:32] and I was facing the decision to crash in the middle
[00:01:34] of a firefight or fly just two more miles
[00:01:37] to the safety of the airfield.
[00:01:39] I didn't hesitate or discuss it with anyone.
[00:01:41] It was my decision to make.
[00:01:43] We'd go for the field.
[00:01:45] Still, I kept my eye on that midway point.
[00:01:48] It sort of looked like a city park
[00:01:50] which was what it had been long ago
[00:01:52] when the place was prosperous.
[00:01:53] Now as we closed on it,
[00:01:55] I could see that it was covered with tin shacks and huts.
[00:01:59] But none of that mattered
[00:02:00] because within a few seconds,
[00:02:02] the world went completely to hell.
[00:02:06] The RPG had smashed into the rear gear box
[00:02:08] a fixture the size of a big watermelon
[00:02:10] and full of oil and gears
[00:02:12] where the drive shaft came in to have its speed
[00:02:15] and direction ratios altered for the tail rotor.
[00:02:19] The bottom of that box had been blown off
[00:02:21] the drive shaft bent and twisted.
[00:02:25] I heard a rapidly accelerating wine
[00:02:28] and unearthly building scream
[00:02:31] and then the tail rotor assembly
[00:02:33] completely disintegrated into vapor
[00:02:35] with an ear splitting bang.
[00:02:39] The nose of the helicopter immediately started to spin
[00:02:41] to the right, the tail rotor on a blackhawk
[00:02:43] counters the torque created by the main rotor system
[00:02:46] and the pedal pedals control the pitch of the tail rotor.
[00:02:49] As we passed through the first 90 degrees of rotation,
[00:02:53] I instinctively countered with the left pedal
[00:02:56] and I knew we'd lost it.
[00:02:59] I'll never forget looking down to make sure
[00:03:00] I was pushing the pedal
[00:03:02] and seeing my boot jammed all the way to the floor.
[00:03:06] My body was reacting properly
[00:03:08] but my yellow was not.
[00:03:11] I keyed the mic.
[00:03:12] Six fours lost the tail rotor,
[00:03:13] we're going in hard.
[00:03:16] I looked over it, ray and said,
[00:03:17] I guess we better pull them off.
[00:03:19] I was referring to the engines
[00:03:21] because the only way to counter that spin
[00:03:23] was to shut them down and eliminate the torque.
[00:03:26] But just as the blackhawk manual describes such an emergency
[00:03:29] if you don't kill the engines right away,
[00:03:32] the force will make it physically impossible
[00:03:34] to reach up for the power control levers.
[00:03:38] I'd always thought that sounded a little extreme.
[00:03:42] It wasn't super six fours started to spin so fast
[00:03:46] that the sky and ground became nothing
[00:03:48] but two blurred stripes of blue and brown
[00:03:50] in front of my eyes.
[00:03:52] It was like riding a merry-go-round
[00:03:54] looking straight out from the side of your horse
[00:03:56] while the teenage operator goes nuts
[00:03:58] and halls it up to 50 revs per minute.
[00:04:01] I was hurled against my harness,
[00:04:03] my hands desperately yanking and twisting the controls
[00:04:06] and I looked over it,
[00:04:07] ray, to see him fighting the force with every muscle,
[00:04:10] his glove hands quaking
[00:04:12] as he tried to reach up for the power levels.
[00:04:17] I knew I was going to die.
[00:04:25] And that right there is an excerpt from the book
[00:04:28] called in the company of Heroes,
[00:04:31] which was written by retired chief
[00:04:33] worn officer Michael J. Durant,
[00:04:36] who was a member of the legendary Knight Stockers
[00:04:40] and who was shot down during Operation Gothic Serpent
[00:04:45] and was held captive during the battle of Mogadishu.
[00:04:50] That operation was documented in the book Black Hawk Down
[00:04:54] by author Mark Bowden
[00:04:57] and the book was eventually adapted into the movie Black Hawk Down.
[00:05:02] But it is an honor tonight to have Mike Durant
[00:05:06] with us to discuss his lessons learned,
[00:05:10] his experiences from the army,
[00:05:12] from the Knight Stockers, from Somalia and beyond.
[00:05:16] Mike, thank you for joining us.
[00:05:19] My pleasure, Jaco. Good to be here.
[00:05:21] It's a rough way to start off this podcast,
[00:05:23] I guess, putting you through those moments.
[00:05:26] Yeah, you know, it's interesting
[00:05:28] that I wrote the book over 10 years ago
[00:05:29] and I tried to go back and read it again a couple years back
[00:05:34] and honestly, I just don't want to relive it.
[00:05:37] So it is kind of hard sometimes
[00:05:39] because those were pretty rough times,
[00:05:42] but I'm glad we got it all down on paper
[00:05:44] and you know, it's certainly a story worth telling.
[00:05:47] All right, so I like to start at the beginning.
[00:05:50] So we're going to jump into a little bit of the childhood
[00:05:53] where you came from, how you ended up being you.
[00:05:57] You're saying the book as far back as I can remember,
[00:05:59] I always wanted to be a helicopter pilot.
[00:06:01] Sure, other James Flash by when you're a kid
[00:06:03] in a small New England town, fire fighter, police men,
[00:06:06] sports hero, brain surgeon.
[00:06:09] I never had the brain surgeon one.
[00:06:10] Yeah, I think we made that up.
[00:06:11] I don't think I ever thought that.
[00:06:13] But the idea of flying for a living
[00:06:15] had always enthralled me the most.
[00:06:16] My father was a full-time first surgeon
[00:06:18] in the Army National Guard and many of my uncles
[00:06:20] and cousin served there as well, but I didn't have
[00:06:22] fancies about flying off into battle
[00:06:25] and coming home here with a chest full of metals.
[00:06:27] I grew up during the Vietnam era when none of the kids
[00:06:31] around me wanted anything to do with wearing a uniform.
[00:06:34] So it wasn't about patriotism or flag waving
[00:06:36] or anything like that.
[00:06:37] My feelings about duty, honor and country
[00:06:40] would evolve over time.
[00:06:42] But back then, the Army was just a way for me
[00:06:44] to get the best flight training without having to pay for it.
[00:06:50] I got to ask this question the other day.
[00:06:51] I was on the special operations now,
[00:06:53] has their own podcast.
[00:06:55] And they asked me, they set me up with this really nice question.
[00:06:59] You know, can you tell us about when you realized
[00:07:00] that service was going to be a part of your life
[00:07:04] and you wanting to be recognized that you want to be something bigger
[00:07:08] than yourself.
[00:07:09] I was like, hey, I appreciate you thinking I was like that
[00:07:12] when I was 17 years old, but I just wanted a machine gun.
[00:07:15] Right.
[00:07:16] It's the same thing.
[00:07:17] You know, I just, I just tell like it is.
[00:07:19] That's just that's the reality.
[00:07:20] It was, you know, we're in a paper mill town
[00:07:25] and nothing is folks who work in the mill,
[00:07:27] but that's it.
[00:07:28] I mean, you either, you're going to go have a career
[00:07:29] working in the mill or you got to go find something somewhere else.
[00:07:32] And when I found out the Army had a helicopter program
[00:07:35] and I could sign up and get trained to do it,
[00:07:37] I'm like, that's me.
[00:07:38] And fortune of one that, you know, one of the guys
[00:07:41] that it worked out for.
[00:07:42] Yeah.
[00:07:43] You say I was barely 17 when I sneaked off to a briefing
[00:07:46] at the local recruiting office.
[00:07:48] The Army sales pitch was slick.
[00:07:50] I'd be attending all of these advanced and top secret
[00:07:52] training schools and have all sorts of incredible adventures.
[00:07:56] And I swallowed it, hook, line, and sinker.
[00:07:58] I wanted to get into flight school right away,
[00:08:01] but the recruiter told me that was not possible.
[00:08:03] I would have to join up and then apply for flight school
[00:08:05] while in service.
[00:08:06] Still my test scores were pretty high.
[00:08:08] And I was confident that I eventually would make it.
[00:08:10] College is not an option for me.
[00:08:12] I only wanted to fly.
[00:08:13] And I signed that commitment paper on October 25th, 1978.
[00:08:20] So you did that your junior year?
[00:08:22] Let's see.
[00:08:23] So that would have been the fall of my senior year.
[00:08:25] OK.
[00:08:26] Yeah.
[00:08:27] A year later, shortly after my graduation
[00:08:30] in high school, I found myself in basic training.
[00:08:33] So you go to basic training.
[00:08:36] How's that?
[00:08:37] Yeah.
[00:08:38] All those wonderful adventures.
[00:08:39] So I'll quickly become reality.
[00:08:43] Now I think it, for me, having grown up the way I did,
[00:08:50] it was a shock.
[00:08:51] I mean, it really was.
[00:08:52] Now basic training, looking back now,
[00:08:54] compared to a lot of the other stuff that went on through my career,
[00:08:56] was probably nothing.
[00:08:57] But for a kid who didn't do a whole lot,
[00:09:01] had a couple of fairly easy jobs.
[00:09:03] And it was a dramatic change of lifestyle.
[00:09:07] What sports did you play growing up in New Hampshire?
[00:09:10] Actually, mostly hockey.
[00:09:11] I played a little football.
[00:09:13] I was horrible at baseball.
[00:09:14] I still can't throw baseball out of no what the problem is.
[00:09:17] And then a lot of outdoor activity skiing,
[00:09:20] a lot of snow skiing actually.
[00:09:21] My dad was a big hunter in Fisherman.
[00:09:23] So we did a lot of that.
[00:09:25] His job other than being a national guard,
[00:09:27] he actually was a surveyor for a forestry company.
[00:09:30] So he got out in the woods all the time.
[00:09:32] And for him, that was his dream job.
[00:09:34] Because he's a hunter.
[00:09:35] So now he can go recall where he's going to go hunting,
[00:09:38] while he's getting paid to work for the paper company.
[00:09:40] So it was a win-win for him.
[00:09:43] But the end result was a lot of time outdoors
[00:09:45] and awesome place to grow up.
[00:09:47] But northern New England is just a fantastic place.
[00:09:51] And every member I have of it is a good one.
[00:09:56] I grew up in Connecticut and Maine.
[00:09:57] So New England has definitely has a lot of nice things
[00:10:01] about that's for sure.
[00:10:02] So he's going away from the city.
[00:10:04] That is also for sure.
[00:10:07] So you end up going to DLI, Defence Language Institute.
[00:10:11] How, what did you just get a good score on the D-Lab or something?
[00:10:14] So the recruiter, you just said,
[00:10:17] told me I couldn't go straight to flight school.
[00:10:19] Is that true or not?
[00:10:20] It's not.
[00:10:21] So you've heard the lot.
[00:10:23] You know when the recruiter's lying, because the lips are moving.
[00:10:25] I mean, that's pretty much, they have a quota.
[00:10:28] They're trying to fill slots.
[00:10:30] They're going to push you in that direction.
[00:10:32] I guess they were just short Spanish voice intercepted operators
[00:10:35] at particular day.
[00:10:36] So he convinced me.
[00:10:38] And I talked to a couple of folks and they said,
[00:10:40] they're going to send you to school for a year to learn a language.
[00:10:43] That's a great deal.
[00:10:44] You should take it.
[00:10:45] So I agreed and I did it.
[00:10:47] So you went to Spanish school.
[00:10:49] And we dealt with things just behind music.
[00:10:52] We dealt with things just behind music.
[00:10:53] There were some things.
[00:10:54] Good work.
[00:10:55] Did you get sent you down in Panama?
[00:10:55] I did.
[00:10:57] Yeah.
[00:10:58] What were you doing flying up and listening listening in on the comms?
[00:11:01] No, we actually had a station there.
[00:11:05] Actually there were two.
[00:11:06] There were one on the E.S.
[00:11:11] One on the west side.
[00:11:08] And we were listening to cums throughout Central America.
[00:11:12] There's a gigantic antenna array and we sat right in the middle of it.
[00:11:15] My job was to find it and then like write a summary of what they were talking about and then it would go to the analyst and they would decide whether or not
[00:11:23] It was you know worth really documenting
[00:11:25] So I'm I'm recording it and I'm making notes just basically so it wasn't exactly the glamorous
[00:11:31] You know James Bond career that I thought it might be as described yeah, and you start putting in for flight school
[00:11:39] As soon as you get there very soon afterward
[00:11:42] I still remember you know I already wanted to fly and I was on the beach one day
[00:11:46] I mean Panama's pretty nice place to be don't get me wrong. It was a good assignment
[00:11:49] And these two Huey's came low level right over the beach and I'm like oh, yeah
[00:11:54] Yeah, I forgot about that I need to go pursue that because it you know
[00:11:58] It's just there's something about I don't know it helicopters if you get involved in them
[00:12:02] They get in your blood. You know there's there's nothing better and
[00:12:05] When I when I had that moment on the beach I said I'm getting this going again
[00:12:09] People don't realize now, you know everything we do is on our phone on you know
[00:12:12] Go log in the internet back then and you're filling out forms and you know making copies and and
[00:12:18] Putting it in an envelope so it was a it was a little bit of an adventure applying for flight school from overseas
[00:12:24] But I made it happen. I got accept how how was like the acceptance rate was it hard to get accepted?
[00:12:30] I don't know if it was super hard that the
[00:12:34] The hard part actually came in flight school a lot of people washed out or or
[00:12:37] You know again, they're trying to get certain numbers through so like our class started with 80 and we ended up graduating 40 now
[00:12:44] They didn't all get washed out, but they got pushed back to other classes. Yeah, so
[00:12:49] And that's what going right back in a boot camp when you when you go to for rocker Alabama as far as they're gonna
[00:12:56] Tighten you up and yeah, they can they shave your head again and you know
[00:13:00] You're doing square meals and you got five minutes to eat and you know
[00:13:04] They're yelling at you from the moment you wake up they're inspecting your bed, but it's all there's a purpose and I'm sure some of it
[00:13:10] Doesn't accomplish much but a lot of the stuff when you look back at it
[00:13:14] It's about attention to detail right? I mean if you're a pre-flight and aircraft or you're flying a mission
[00:13:19] You gotta be focused on what you're doing. I mean you know you can't be you know often lolol
[00:13:23] And you got it you gotta be you know that that's exactly two inches it's supposed to be two inches
[00:13:28] Okay, it's good move on to the next thing right, but
[00:13:30] You know at the time you're like why are they inspecting my bed? You know it doesn't seem to make sense
[00:13:37] But it weeds out the people that that can't do that sort of thing
[00:13:41] They don't have that discipline so you start off in a
[00:13:44] T-h 55 which I thought was funny you saying the book it they had those things painted bright orange
[00:13:50] Hey
[00:13:52] Student yes, yes, like student driver side
[00:13:56] Absolutely because they were dating my roommate had a mid air just a put in real active. Yeah, I mean we had see you solo with less than 10 hours in the aircraft
[00:14:04] So can you imagine
[00:14:06] 10 hours of flight time and you're given a helicopter go take it around the pattern and
[00:14:10] He and another classmate crashed into each other because you're you're flying multiple runways
[00:14:17] That are parallel to each other so they're like opposite direction in the pattern and they both overshot
[00:14:22] And they ran into each other now fortunately
[00:14:26] It was minor damage, but again you got seven eight hours in a helicopter and you suddenly had a mid air
[00:14:32] What do I do? One of them thought yet an engine failure, which is not even close to what the problem was
[00:14:37] So he did what's called an auto rotation thing
[00:14:39] You know, but his engine's working fine. He just but he got it on the ground somehow. How do you how do you collide helicopters and not have a catastrophic event?
[00:14:48] It's your lucky day. I mean go straight to Vegas because I mean they should have opened dead and neither one of them
[00:14:54] Actually even washed out they kept they stayed with the class. That was amazing. Yeah, what part made contact so the rotor blades of one
[00:15:04] Impacted the landing gear and underneath of the other so it like chop part of the landing gear off and chop some antennas off
[00:15:12] And it makes it makes it yeah exciting times right out of the gate and then you go from that bird to a Huey
[00:15:18] Right, did you think you were in nom when you're flying the Huey actually it feels like you get in the space shuttle
[00:15:24] I mean because you know
[00:15:25] It's like a maybe you get into a Ferrari if you drive a Toyota every day
[00:15:30] You know, I mean just seems very advanced. There's just a lot of stuff in there and
[00:15:34] And then of course that happens again when I ultimately end up in the blackhawk, but you know each each leap forward is
[00:15:40] You know there's a lot more systems to know and a lot more gauges and
[00:15:43] It's just incredible you know the first time you fly this like wow, okay
[00:15:50] I'm really here. This is this is where I wanted to go
[00:15:52] You know and then you keep going beyond that it seems like again from my rudimentary knowledge and from being in you know
[00:15:59] Be it fine around in a Huey it seems like where you're in a Huey
[00:16:04] You're in a like a 19 65 muscle car and then when you go into a blackhawk
[00:16:11] You feel like you're in a in a brand new you know Tesla
[00:16:16] Like electronic everything is that accurate or am I just dumb?
[00:16:20] No, you're absolutely right now. It's be careful here because my wife is actually a Huey
[00:16:24] So I can't say any disparaging things about a Huey
[00:16:28] It's a great Eric she always jokes around and says you know the last
[00:16:32] When they fly the last blackhawk to a museum and they fly the crew out they'll fly that crew out with a Huey
[00:16:36] Because it'll be around long in the blackhawk ever well, but no you're right it just it seems
[00:16:42] I have a picture of the first flight I took in a blackhawk from
[00:16:46] Behind you know it has digital gauges and things like that did you just you know
[00:16:50] Don't have in those legacy aircraft they're all steam gauges or needles
[00:16:54] So you know again, it's it's like flying a spaceship
[00:16:57] I mean it really it's intimidating at first but after a while
[00:17:00] It's just an extension of yourself and then what was your so you get qualified in the blackhawk and then you go
[00:17:06] You end up getting stationed over in Korea
[00:17:08] To be to be a MetaVac pilot right and when I first got that assignment I'm like MetaVac
[00:17:14] You know, I don't want to go fly MetaVac
[00:17:16] I want to be you know in the 101st or
[00:17:19] You know one of the real you know go to war kind of units, but in the end
[00:17:25] Being in MetaVac was the best of time when I could get because you're by yourself
[00:17:29] You're you're constantly flying single ship missions
[00:17:32] You you graduate to pilot commands that it's very quickly so you start being forced into that decision making process and
[00:17:38] You know owning it and the responsibility and all those things that go along with being in charge of something
[00:17:43] Whereas if you if you go to a more traditional unit
[00:17:47] You're you're just kind of a duck in a row. You're not doing a lot of things on your own
[00:17:51] You don't have a lot of decision making put on you and I flew a lot
[00:17:55] We we flew a ton in that unit and as a brand new pilot
[00:17:59] You need those two things you need experience, you know moving the sticks around and you need to be put in situations where you have to make decisions
[00:18:05] That really helps you grow and you've got life and death situations happening because you're going to pick up guys that are in
[00:18:11] Your in training operations and one have you see you and I haven't said this yet
[00:18:16] But obviously I'm not reading this whole book right now
[00:18:18] You know you there's so much detail and you talk about the lessons you learned there
[00:18:22] That's some of the stuff that's in the book the books incredible for all kinds of lessons incredible storytelling
[00:18:28] And that's what you talk about some of those some of those situations that you were in where you had people's lives on the line and you're making decisions as a as a young
[00:18:36] Or an officer flying those birds definitely a lot of lessons learned there. Absolutely. I look back. I mean, I was 22
[00:18:42] And I look at you know I've got kids that are much older than that
[00:18:46] And I I'm like I'm not sure that I would put them in that responsibility nothing against them
[00:18:51] It's just you know you you think about how green you are you know
[00:18:56] I mean that's that's fairly young to be taking on that kind of responsibility
[00:19:00] But that's that's how you evolve and become once you you really can be if you don't even push the limit
[00:19:06] You're not ever going to get where you might go so you do that opt you do the
[00:19:10] MetaVac for two years in Korea. Yeah, it's a one year tour
[00:19:13] But I was getting so much flight time and I liked it there so much. I said hey, I'll stay longer
[00:19:17] So I extended my tour not quite two years, but almost and from there you had back to a
[00:19:22] Fort Campbell
[00:19:27] When you're there I'm gonna go to the book here in January 1986
[00:19:30] I reported back to Fort Campbell and with another pilot from my MetaVac unit in Korea bought a house off base
[00:19:36] I remember it well because I was as I was unpacking
[00:19:40] Gear the television was on and I stood there open mouth watching the explosion the space shutter shuttle
[00:19:46] Challenger
[00:19:47] There was a national tragedy
[00:19:49] But considering how long the space program had gone without a fatal miss app I wasn't at all surprised
[00:19:53] It's a reminder that if you spend your career in the air you can't get complacent
[00:20:00] The next day I was ready and raring to audition
[00:20:04] for the 160 of special operations aviation regiment
[00:20:09] How would you heard about the night stalkers prior to this so they were still kind of under cover at that under cover's not really right
[00:20:16] Word but not not really spoken about publicly certainly not by the military
[00:20:20] I actually heard about him in a bar in Korea
[00:20:23] Some guy talking about hey they get this unit, you know, and I read Tom Clancy books. I mean I was I was you know
[00:20:29] Very intrigued by that sort of thing
[00:20:32] Never really been exposed to the to the real world part of it but new it all existed and and thought you know that could be the next level for me
[00:20:40] You know and and
[00:20:42] Soon as I heard about it I was very very intrigued and I thought yeah, I'd like to end up there someday
[00:20:48] And you know naive at the time in terms of what it would take to get there
[00:20:53] But that's when the the seed was planted and it was it was a
[00:20:58] I was almost like a little mix up when you went there because you went and you signed into the hundred and first and sort of checked on board
[00:21:05] And once you checked on board the guys at the 160th were like you already checked on board with the hundred first
[00:21:10] Sorry right my orders were to the hundred first I signed in and at that point they got their claws on me and I can't get out of it
[00:21:18] And then good you know sometimes things in life happen and they end up being good even though
[00:21:22] It's not what you wanted to have happened, but I got more experience
[00:21:25] Went to the instructor pilot course, you know got a bunch of night vision goggle time all things
[00:21:29] It really helped before you make that leap to the to the soft world and so then you spend that time at the hundred first
[00:21:38] and your your
[00:21:40] Are you figuring out more about the night stalkers at this time you learn and more?
[00:21:44] Yeah, so that's when I run across clay hot marker
[00:21:48] I know you know and
[00:21:49] He actually at the time when I first met him was at W2 so he had been a Marine
[00:21:54] I think you know the story then he was at W2 when I met him and then he got commissioned as a second lieutenant and ultimately retired
[00:22:00] The two star generals so he just couldn't hold a job
[00:22:03] I don't want the problem but
[00:22:05] When I met him he
[00:22:07] You know he knew about the unit and in fact he had gotten into the unit and brought me over there to look at the aircraft
[00:22:13] So not only is now the mission
[00:22:15] a seam
[00:22:16] You know very
[00:22:18] Full of intrigue, but the aircraft themselves have got the sexy equipment on board that I didn't even know existed
[00:22:24] I mean we had forward looking infrared systems
[00:22:26] I mean this is 1988
[00:22:28] Most people didn't know
[00:22:30] Flier even existed, you know and and it's already on the aircraft they've already got it
[00:22:34] They have a digital cockpit
[00:22:35] I mean it was very rudimentary from today standards, but
[00:22:40] again, you know this is just stuff that was
[00:22:44] Unheard of and I'm thinking so it's a super cool mission flying for these super cool customers with these
[00:22:50] Super cool aircraft. I got to figure out how to get over here
[00:22:52] So that that just kind of amp me up a little bit more actually and then what was the selection process?
[00:22:58] Once you got over to
[00:22:59] To the 160 of so I actually ended up being in the first formal green platoon that the unit ever did before my class
[00:23:08] You'd basically just get assigned to a company and then your green platoon was
[00:23:13] Informal just did kind of the same things, but it wasn't a dedicated class and
[00:23:18] You know model somewhat after buds and some of the other training courses the unit realized
[00:23:23] We need a we need a dedicated course to get people through because there's too much of a burden on the unit
[00:23:28] The unit needs to be focused on executing you know missions and training the
[00:23:33] The the unit level the training of new people should be done by a dedicated training organization
[00:23:39] So they created this you know green platoon as it's called now and it includes you know all the typical stuff
[00:23:45] The land nav physical fitness, swim test, cycle valve, lot of flying
[00:23:50] You know life saving shooting, you know
[00:23:53] Not at the level that you went through but you know our focus is more on the aviation part
[00:23:58] But you get a fair amount of all that other stuff just so
[00:24:01] You know if you end up in a situation where you're not pilot anymore you're on the ground
[00:24:05] You're at least not a burden to the ground for as you can do something besides just sit there and say you know
[00:24:11] Help get me home, you know
[00:24:12] So so I think that's the main idea, you know you do some life saving stuff if you shoot a weapon that's sort of thing
[00:24:17] And it lasted
[00:24:19] I'm thinking it lasted nine months, so I mean it's pretty long time a lot of flying and that's the flying is usually what ends up
[00:24:27] Weeding people out because and I think this is still the case today
[00:24:32] The the philosophy was yeah global positioning system is great
[00:24:36] But when it goes down you still got to be able to get your customers on the target so
[00:24:41] We really focused heavily on land nav with a map, you know planning drawing lines on a map and being able to hit that target
[00:24:48] Even if your systems go down and that's hard to do because especially when you start relying on the technology because then you
[00:24:55] It's like getting over here today, you know, I mean to think about where I was going I hit Uber
[00:24:59] Put the address in you know, I didn't even know how long it would take until I I'd punched all that stuff in
[00:25:04] But if you rely too heavily on that you know and things really matter like you know getting
[00:25:10] Getting soft operators on a target you got to be able to do it no matter what so there's a lot of a lot of focus on that manual stuff and
[00:25:17] Some people just aren't very adept at that and I'm not a great navigator
[00:25:21] I know some great navigators. I mean these guys the map like it jumps out with Adam
[00:25:26] They they they see it different than I see it for me. It's a bunch of lines and if it's not an interstate highway
[00:25:32] Or major body of water. I again identify it all that well
[00:25:35] But these other guys are just unbelievable and and so you always want to be paired with one of those guys because they can they can help you
[00:25:41] But I mean I do it well obviously well enough because I made it through the training
[00:25:45] But it it was it was just fantastic you learn all this special mission to quit me you know like things like fast rope at the time
[00:25:54] The army didn't do fast ropes. I don't know they do it widespread even today
[00:25:58] So you got to learn how to do that you got to learn you know just all these different things that you learn that you didn't learn in your previous
[00:26:04] Experience is all part of Greenblatton so when you show up you're at least a copilot you're ready to
[00:26:09] Jump in and and serve that copilot
[00:26:11] Position and just to give people some
[00:26:14] Some background because we were kind of talking about it because you and I know about it
[00:26:18] But you say in the book here to clarify what the one 60th is which is their their nickname their call sign is the night stalkers
[00:26:26] You say this the night stalkers or strictly a special operations outfit
[00:26:30] They had the best helicopters the latest equipment and an unlimited acquisition budget
[00:26:35] They flew mostly at night using the latest technology night vision devices
[00:26:39] Deep behind enemy lines racing just above sand dunes ocean waves or jungle canopies to deliver special ops teams
[00:26:48] Their missions were hostage rescues snatching grabs a bad guy's
[00:26:52] Even liberations of enemy equipment
[00:26:55] Their customers were the elite of the elite and strictly can't classified
[00:27:00] Meaning Navy seals army Rangers or other special mission units the existence of the night stalkers was officially denied
[00:27:08] And their pilots had reputations as the James bonds of the community
[00:27:14] If a mission was regarded as impossible the night stalkers would get it and impossible had always been seductive to me
[00:27:23] So that's a little bit of what what what what the night stalkers do what their mission is what their mission set is
[00:27:30] So you end up obviously you you get there
[00:27:33] I'm gonna fast forward through the book a little bit past some of those experiences
[00:27:39] And here we go on Sunday
[00:27:41] December 17th I was packing up bathing suits and sun tan lotion at my house in Clarksville when my page are beeped and hummed
[00:27:50] At the time Clay hotmocker had become my platoon leader
[00:27:54] But he was already more than that clay lived right above lorry and me in our two family house
[00:27:59] So he'd spent a lot of time together on and off base he was my boss, but he was also my friend
[00:28:05] I called him to Fort Campbell and he picked up on the first ring
[00:28:09] Hotmocker Durant come on in Roger that
[00:28:13] I did not experience even a twinge of surprise and I quickly switched my vacation suitcase for my combat duffle
[00:28:20] Like many special operators. I was a news junkie watching and listening international flare-ups
[00:28:26] The way stockbrokers scan the ticks in the market. I knew that Manuel Noriega had already pushed the United States over the edge
[00:28:35] On Saturday night four young officers had been driving downtown in Panama City in the search of the perfect pizza
[00:28:43] Outside Noriega's military headquarters they had been stopped at a PDF roadblock
[00:28:49] When members of the national the police
[00:28:51] Begin beating on the car with the tons and hauling the hauling on the door handles the young Americans concluded that they were about to disappear
[00:28:58] Into one of Noriega's notorious dungeons forever the driver hit the gas pedal as the panomanians open fire
[00:29:06] Killing Marine first lieutenant Robert Paz
[00:29:10] It hadn't ended there an American Navy Lieutenant Adam Curtis had witnessed the shooting incident along with his wife
[00:29:17] Both of them were dragged off
[00:29:19] For interrogations while Mrs Curtis was forced to assume the position against a prison cell wall and repeatedly threatened with rape
[00:29:27] Her husband was gagged pistol whipped and kicked in the groin right in front of her
[00:29:32] This had gone on for four hours until the battered young couple was released to collapse into a public street
[00:29:39] Noriega's message had been clearly received in Washington
[00:29:43] Come and get me green goes
[00:29:45] So that's what you're getting called in for and an interesting side note here the officer the Navy officer that you talk about here Adam Curtis
[00:29:57] He was actually a seal and
[00:30:00] I worked with him. He was my task unit commander in a platoon and I think it was 1995 so
[00:30:06] 5 or 6 years after this happened he was my
[00:30:10] Yeah, he was my my task unit commander
[00:30:13] Interesting
[00:30:15] It is a small world especially in the soft world
[00:30:19] So
[00:30:20] Talked us a little bit about Panama and what you did there
[00:30:24] You know, I've said multiple times lately as I've talked about you know my my background and
[00:30:29] Everyone knows me by black-hawked down, you know one day and it's 22 year career and if I could pick
[00:30:35] What people knew me by it actually probably picked just cause because when you think about
[00:30:40] What we trained for at the macro level? I mean this was it was a host of dress-gu on that mission
[00:30:48] There was an airfield take down on that mission
[00:30:51] Seals disabled airplanes that
[00:30:54] Terriho's was gonna or Noriega was gonna try to get out on
[00:30:58] It was a largest airborne drop since Vietnam down a Riojo
[00:31:01] Apache's got used for the first time F1 17 got used for the first time. I mean it was
[00:31:06] This was about as complicated and up as it get and it was it all went down in like 36 hours
[00:31:12] I mean that moment you just described when I'm in my living room
[00:31:16] We're launching on each hour a day and a half later at one o'clock in the morning
[00:31:20] I started number looking at Donovan Bradley who I flew with on that mission and he ends up
[00:31:24] Donovan loses life in some in Somalia
[00:31:27] Like is this real because you know we we've been to
[00:31:30] To prime chance which was technically a combat off but no hostility is really when we were there when I was there
[00:31:38] Where was prime chance in the Persian Gulf the Iranians were mining the okay on the barges and we're not so we lived on the barges and
[00:31:45] That's actually the first time that night vision goggles were used in combat
[00:31:49] One of the guys from the one sixtieth little bird guy shot a bog hammer that was dropping mines into the sea
[00:31:55] And use the flushet actually and one of the Iranians after they captured them is still got a flushet in his cheek
[00:32:03] So obviously round on target
[00:32:06] But you know for Donovan and I want to clock in the morning flying on this mission with two Apache's to go down the Rio Hado to support this airfield seizure
[00:32:16] I mean we're sort of in disbelief, you know because how many times you get spun up and spun that you know
[00:32:22] They were gonna go we're gonna go and then we're not going and then that 2000 pound bomb goes off at
[00:32:29] Precisely one a. You know we all bash our our our the other services, you know
[00:32:34] There are no engineers good as us, but I will give the Air Force credit that bomb hit
[00:32:39] Precisely at one o'clock in the morning and it was a pretty big splash
[00:32:42] I mean 2000 pound bomb makes a heck of a flash in the middle of night
[00:32:47] So at that point we we realize you know this is real
[00:32:50] But over the next you know several days
[00:32:53] You know just amazing missions just complete success highly complex op and
[00:33:01] Just that to me was the the ultimate special operations mission just so many facets
[00:33:10] All done well now we took some losses, you know we we lost a couple pilots and a firefight in in
[00:33:16] Colone daytime, you know that's always when we end up in trouble. We're in close
[00:33:21] Trying to take on people that you can't see
[00:33:24] There's a lot of ways to shoot a helicopter down and unfortunately this little bird got shot down a couple of days later
[00:33:30] Both pilots were killed, but but overall
[00:33:33] Just an incredible mission and you know ultimately we do end up getting men one or yaga and
[00:33:38] He gets flown out actually by Cliff Walcott who was flying with Jonathan Briley and Somalia when he lost his life
[00:33:44] So they were all one you know just one band of brothers, you know and
[00:33:48] Being able to participate and knows kind of ops and I actually ended up supporting
[00:33:52] Seals
[00:33:54] On the on the Colone side that was that was my mission we were
[00:33:58] You know trying to find Noria. We call it the hunt for Elvis you know because they were Elvis sightings all over the place
[00:34:04] You know we get people we call it and say yeah, he's over here and we go
[00:34:08] It wasn't quite that you know the helicopter but there were several missions where we thought
[00:34:13] Okay, this is legit intel you know it's legit a minute enough to launch and we would take a place down and
[00:34:19] He was never there but finally, you know as as
[00:34:22] Most people know we found him hiding and he eventually gave up and we flew them out
[00:34:27] What was that what was the total time that you spent down there?
[00:34:31] Well oddly enough I departed early because I had to go teach green plateau
[00:34:36] I got to the point in the unit where I was now teaching others scary scary thought
[00:34:41] But
[00:34:43] And I had to go back and and start the training you know things were starting to wind down
[00:34:46] I think Noria had been located and that the number of direct action missions was was scaling back
[00:34:52] You know we had control of the whole country so there wasn't any need to really
[00:34:56] You know keep flying as many missions that we had been flying so the commander decided hey go back
[00:35:01] Teach Green poll two and so I was only there
[00:35:03] Probably a week I mean you know to get all that done in a week that's why I say
[00:35:07] If there was something that I could be known for I wish it was that mission because it really was amazing
[00:35:11] But that is just a footnote in history for most of us. Yeah, well the good thing is in the book
[00:35:16] You detail you go through a lot of those details talk about what those missions were like
[00:35:20] Yeah, it's it's it's really good for me to read it because I I only ever got debriefed on like
[00:35:26] What the seal specifically did so it was very cool to hear from your perspective and see what I'll bunch of the other units
[00:35:32] Including you know your unit right good to see
[00:35:34] Um
[00:35:36] I wanted to say something and if I forget to say it later. I really appreciate how
[00:35:41] Complimentary you you were in extreme ownership about the conventional army units that you work with because you know a lot of times
[00:35:49] We at least in my era there wasn't a lot of combat experience so for us the special ops guys
[00:35:54] Kind of looked down on those and that was wrong and I I always felt you know after the fact that there was
[00:36:00] Immatured on my part to kind of look at them that way because they just didn't have the experience. They just hadn't done it, you know, but you know, but you know
[00:36:06] To hear your perspective on you know battle hardened
[00:36:10] Convention on units out there kicking ass just like everybody else. I was just really appreciate that. That was good stuff
[00:36:15] Well, I'd I'd love to take some kind of credit for for that
[00:36:18] But when we were we were lucky enough to be in those situations where I mean I was just working side by side with those guys
[00:36:24] And and there was just no doubt in there in their professionalism in their bravery and it was it
[00:36:30] An honor to be able to serve alongside them and not even just active duty army and Marine Corps, but you know when we got to
[00:36:36] Ramadi in 2006 it was a national guard national guard on the ground and they were they were
[00:36:41] Doing an incredible job taking the fight to the enemy and and they you know I told Colonel Gronski he came on this podcast
[00:36:48] 100% my some of my guys are alive because the lessons that we learned from the national guard when we showed up there
[00:36:56] And then when the one one AD showed up 100% some of my guys are alive because when we called they came the one one
[00:37:04] AD whatever battalion came and there was multiple over and over again
[00:37:09] So we owe so much to those guys and and we won't ever forget them, but I think you're right
[00:37:14] You know when I was in the sealed teams in the 90s, you know, we we we definitely were
[00:37:19] I think partially just ignorant and and and partially arrogant right
[00:37:26] Well, they just they hadn't been to war so you know in our minds we're the real world guys and they're just practicing right
[00:37:33] But they they and you think about national guard in particular
[00:37:37] I mean most national guard units had not deployed you know prior to 911 for decades
[00:37:42] Yeah, to know that they ramped up like this amazing they did indeed as a tribute to an attack
[00:37:47] It's a testament to the American war fighter
[00:37:51] Fast forward a little bit more
[00:37:54] You end up in the first Gulf War right you say here the word been ramping up since the Iraqis invaded Kuwait and August
[00:38:01] Those of us who had been invited were pleased to be there no one was happier about it than Cliff Walcott
[00:38:07] His innovative concept the direct action penetrator
[00:38:10] Configuration of the black off Hawk which had missed the party in Panama was finally going to see some action
[00:38:15] However, while Charlie company in it's and its daps that's the direct action penetrator had drawn us the assignment to provide four of the gunships for
[00:38:23] Skud hunting they didn't have enough qualified pilots for this operation so five of us from Delta company myself Cliff clay hot
[00:38:30] mocker Eddie mole and Stan Wood have been called upon to complete the package
[00:38:34] So this is kind of a new deal the outfitted these these black cocks with more weapon systems
[00:38:40] So they could they could bring some firebour more firebour right
[00:38:43] You know the unit doesn't have a patchy so
[00:38:46] What we were trying to do is is provide a patchy like capability
[00:38:50] But not have to have a dedicated platform because that that's the issue right if you can only put so many birds on a C5
[00:38:57] If you could put one on there that could do both the attack mission and the assault mission
[00:39:01] That gives a ground force commander a lot more opportunity to you know to react
[00:39:06] So he was a brilliant idea and I'm actually
[00:39:08] Shocked that it hasn't and it taken on more of a life certainly with international
[00:39:14] Black Hawk operators because it's essentially two for one. I mean you're getting an attack helicopter and an assault helicopter
[00:39:21] And having been there
[00:39:24] You know a day one when this whole concept was put together and Cliff was the godfather. I mean he he was a cober guy and
[00:39:32] He just you know from the moment he started flying black cocks
[00:39:34] I think I got a figure out a put guns on this thing
[00:39:36] You know this is a waste of my time and
[00:39:39] And we finally did it today. I mean the thing is got I mean it looks like a easy one 30
[00:39:44] It's got stuff all over the place yeah
[00:39:47] I'm gonna fast forward a little bit here you're out on an operation your scud hunting
[00:39:54] Zulu three two this is Charlie seven Charlie four seven
[00:39:58] It was lieutenant Colonel Doug Brown
[00:40:00] Battalion commander of the first baton of the 160th making contact from the jock in a roar
[00:40:08] Roger four seven I answered go ahead. I have a mission change for you three two. He said Colonel Brown's voice was
[00:40:15] Usually cold as ice water but on this night he actually sounded a little keyed up copy these coordinates
[00:40:20] Roger that I said as
[00:40:22] And as Lance continued the lazy orbit over the activities below I repeated the coordinates back to Brown
[00:40:27] You are cleared to direct to the target three two the Colonel ordered target is a possible
[00:40:35] And he couldn't hear him
[00:40:37] Transmission of broken up on the last word four seven I said say again all after coordinate
[00:40:42] Roger that brown answered I say again. It is a crossword
[00:40:46] The sack calm failed again. I fumed I keep the mic button once more
[00:40:51] 47 you're breaking up please spell all after and he said Sierra Charlie uniform delta brown growled
[00:41:00] And then you knew it was a scud and again this is interesting because
[00:41:05] The individual that you're talking about lieutenant Colonel Doug Brown ended up being the four star
[00:41:12] So calm commander in charge of all special operations and when he was in that job
[00:41:16] I was actually the admiral's aid for Admiral Joe McGuire and
[00:41:21] We would see General Brown all the time and did a bunch of trips with him and got to know him
[00:41:27] Just what a great guy. He was as well. Yeah, you know, you say he's usually cold as ice water super
[00:41:34] I mean just super unemotional very very calm laid back and here you are half this opportunity to get these scuds and
[00:41:46] So I gotta tell you just remind of me I'm actually writing this down on my knee board because we have a knee board
[00:41:52] And you know he sent the coordinates I got to write those down and then he's I'm trying to figure out what neck is he saying and then he does it phonetically
[00:41:59] And I still remember
[00:42:01] See it's like a game show, you know, oh
[00:42:06] Yeah, I got it Scott for a hundred dollars
[00:42:10] But the first one that you went to go
[00:42:13] Attack your weapons didn't work right? Yes
[00:42:17] Talked through that so that's gotta be just a little bit frustrating because it's just cool the scuds at the time
[00:42:25] Because I was in the Navy now, but the scuds with his huge threat like this was the major threat
[00:42:31] That they had they could arm him with chemical weapons. It was this that was the big focus you heard all the news all the time
[00:42:37] Was scuds scuds good scuds good? We got to get these scuds. We got to stop these scuds and they had launch scuds
[00:42:42] And so here you are you finally get one of these scuds and you got your your new air craft with all of its weapons on it and you roll in to shoot that thing
[00:42:51] What happens?
[00:42:52] Nothing
[00:42:53] I
[00:42:57] Gives my my potter get wet. I don't know what happened. No, we know what happened. So
[00:43:02] I'm flying and I push the trigger and nothing happens and
[00:43:07] I come around again and I'm flying with Lansing all who you mentioned a moment ago and
[00:43:13] I'm like check the switches so he checks the switches because you know there's a lot of stuff you got to do and
[00:43:18] You can do something incorrectly and it's not armed technically and I come around again
[00:43:23] I push the trigger still nothing. What are you trying to engage with?
[00:43:26] So all we had was miniguns 7.62 which are formidable, but you know, I mean that's not a typical
[00:43:34] Tag helicopter weapon, but we used them in a fixed forward mode, so you're diving fire on the target
[00:43:40] And then rockets. I mean so normally our profile would be you start shooting the minifurst and then you fire
[00:43:46] Now the rockets they're they're free flying aerial rockets FFAR so they're not guided and they come out of the two
[00:43:55] Move and kind of slow so they're hard to hit a
[00:44:00] Precise target weapon
[00:44:02] So we always use the minigun first and then we follow that with rockets once we knew you know
[00:44:06] We were kind of aligned on the target and if you did it enough you got pretty good at it
[00:44:10] You could you could hit a point target like a vehicle
[00:44:13] Fairly off not every time
[00:44:15] So I'm trying to hit you know obviously minigun first and then I'm gonna go to rockets and I try I'm both the need of one works
[00:44:22] So
[00:44:24] I look at lands and I said plants it's one
[00:44:28] F and switch arm it you know
[00:44:31] I figured it had to be him you know
[00:44:33] It can't be the aircraft so we come around again. It still doesn't work. I mean I'm so upset
[00:44:39] It's like a quite a two if you're a hunter
[00:44:42] This is the biggest buck you've ever seen in your life the biggest buck the entire nation
[00:44:47] Yes, I want to you to hunt this buck and he's standing there just chew and you know
[00:44:52] Stationary broadside and you can't chew I mean it was unreal
[00:44:57] I got so upset again, you know, I should I've been probably not but I think I said something like I'm crashing is freaking
[00:45:05] Aircraft
[00:45:06] You're going comma causing
[00:45:07] That's what you're saying the fuck
[00:45:09] I just was that upset and
[00:45:13] Unfortunately, you know, we're gonna flight it to aircraft so the other aircraft is just making these same orbits and shooting
[00:45:20] And I'm not only I as it that I can't shoot, but I'm watching him shoot and he can't shoot nearly as good as me
[00:45:26] And he's not even hitting the target so I see you've making me more furious
[00:45:30] But in the end, you know no damage done
[00:45:33] There there's some speculation that they were actually decoys
[00:45:36] I don't know if you're gonna mention that later, but which it didn't really matter
[00:45:39] I mean, no we want to blow the shit out of this day no matter whether it's a decoy or not and that was a long flight haul
[00:45:45] I mean that that was a painful flight haul
[00:45:49] And of course, you know all your buds what do they think?
[00:45:52] Right, oh, yeah, you dorked it up
[00:45:55] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah
[00:45:56] You know you guys screwed it up. What was wrong with the aircraft?
[00:45:59] That was just some little technical problem. Yeah, I mean we sort of through this thing together
[00:46:04] I mean it hadn't been through rigorous testing or anything like that and and it was an electronic component that was overheating and failing
[00:46:11] After being turned on for two hours and we just didn't know because we'd never flown long long missions with it before
[00:46:17] We'd always crank up turn it on go shoot work fine, but if you flew for two hours it overheated and didn't work anymore
[00:46:26] Eventually you guys did get a scud they talk about that in there
[00:46:30] You talk about that in there the war ended
[00:46:35] Over pretty quick obviously, but at the same time, you know much like in Panama
[00:46:41] You you you he low went down
[00:46:44] You lost Mike Anderson and Chuck Cooper
[00:46:48] Chris Chapman and
[00:46:50] Mario Vega Velazquez and another special operator and they went down lost those guys
[00:47:01] You get done with that and then it's redeployed back to America after that one
[00:47:08] You got I mean going in the 90s 80s and 90s getting like real world experience in both Panama and then going over to the person golf
[00:47:19] That's
[00:47:21] That's freaking legit for back then. Oh, it was that's why we were arrogant
[00:47:26] I mean that was the unfortunate effect of all that because even in the unit
[00:47:30] They were guys that just didn't end up on their on the rotation so they don't have they might have been there 15 years
[00:47:35] But they don't have the combat experience that that was painful for a little man. Yeah, I
[00:47:40] That's that's a nightmare. Yeah, that's it. I got very very lucky my whole career
[00:47:45] I got very lucky my whole career and I always always on the the lucky side not the unlucky side
[00:47:52] You know standard round cone. I wish I would have been there for that not including the first goal for which I'm
[00:47:56] Mess because I'm still in training
[00:47:59] But yeah, that had to be an interesting
[00:48:03] dynamic in the locker room
[00:48:06] I know the the Vietnam guys so we used to call new guys if you hadn't been on deployment
[00:48:10] Then you were new guy and as soon as you went on your first deployment didn't really wear matter where you went
[00:48:16] Then you weren't a new guy anymore, but the Vietnam guys
[00:48:19] Unless you were in combat you were new guys, so you could have been new guy in their mind for 10 years
[00:48:25] Yeah, cherry boy right like they would bring it to some of those old Vietnam guys
[00:48:34] All right, I'm gonna fast forward a little bit
[00:48:36] Somalia October 3rd
[00:48:40] 1993
[00:48:42] It was a perfect day for prayer a bright and tranquil Sunday morning the skies and seas were polished blue soft winds
[00:48:48] Bore civil sea silver edge clouds and the coastal sand's gleamed white like ribbons of salt
[00:48:54] It would have been easy to believe it in some sort of heavenly power
[00:48:59] But for the most of us in task force ranger the helicopter pilots and our crews the eager young rangers and the
[00:49:05] squint-eyed special forces the muscled armors and whiz kid intelligence analysts the all these
[00:49:13] mornings in Mogadishu all ran together a Sabbath day felt hardly different than any other bleeding into the workweek
[00:49:20] Like the steamy bleached beaut uh, Hughes of the African Vista sure
[00:49:26] A few guys knelt before the army chaplain with heads bowed praying for salvation
[00:49:30] The rest of us prayed for another mission
[00:49:36] How long have you been in Somalia at that point so we get through the end of August so we've been there about six weeks
[00:49:40] I mean and and what was your up tempo like pretty heavy?
[00:49:45] I mean we flew most of the time we're flying every day every night now wasn't ops every time
[00:49:50] We were flying these things called signature flights because we're trying to decensatize the enemy
[00:49:55] You know because obviously if you're the bad guys and you're watching your field and a flight of
[00:50:00] 25 helicopters takes off that's a clue right but if you fly in every day and every night then it they become sort of more
[00:50:09] Blivia's to it and that was the theory so and then you know a lot of the operator guys wanted to see the city from the air
[00:50:16] And you know the more you fly around an area the more familiar you get so you're more likely to get on target
[00:50:22] the way you need to so all that combined meant we were flying just about every day and every night
[00:50:26] Going into three October when you how often would you conduct an actual mission like a hit
[00:50:32] So October third is is my eighth
[00:50:37] Real op in six weeks how often were the guys getting contacted on these previous operations like enemy contact firefight
[00:50:45] Someone it started to ramp up you know on the first couple nothing because we had the element of surprise
[00:50:53] But after the first few like on I think it's mission five
[00:51:00] We're we're trying to capture the number two guy guy name Osmond Otto and
[00:51:04] Daytime mission again and
[00:51:06] We're going into the compound where he was he was actually there and
[00:51:10] RPGs are exploding in the air as we're on the way in and it was enough
[00:51:16] Firefighting going on on the ground that we actually didn't go back into the compound to pull the operators out
[00:51:21] We went to an alternate pick up zone because it was just too too hot
[00:51:25] So you know I would say about halfway into the sequence the the the Somali started to get a little bit more
[00:51:30] Bullage rent
[00:51:31] You know plus the the big difference is if you had a target two o'clock in the morning you're in and out
[00:51:36] You're probably not gonna get a whole lot, but if you go in the daytime when everybody's up and around
[00:51:41] That's when you tend to get into a little bit more of a scrape and that's the kind of hot play now
[00:51:45] Yeah, I was trying to get a feel for you know
[00:51:47] Like I only did a two-to-poilment so I rack but you know my first deployment
[00:51:52] obviously those are my first real missions and
[00:51:56] Like the mindset of how long it took to where we as a platoon felt like yeah
[00:52:03] This is what we're doing sort of like this is our job. This is I don't want to say mechanical
[00:52:07] But we just were well rehearsed and we just we were just doing our job and it was like doing any other job
[00:52:14] It didn't take that long
[00:52:15] You know we because we were doing a lot of operations. We basically go and out almost every night and doing another hit another hit
[00:52:21] So you do that five six eight times all right
[00:52:24] What's the next target and you kind of getting that mode and it sounds like you were you all were getting getting in that mode
[00:52:29] Where this is what we're doing. We know how to do it
[00:52:32] Lessons that we're being learned and you make little adjustments and you were there. Yeah, I think we got there pretty quick
[00:52:36] Because we'd rehearse quite a bit back at Fort Bragg
[00:52:38] I mean we had role players and compounds built and all kinds of stuff for you know
[00:52:43] What we thought it was gonna be once we got there some of that was on target. Some of it was not but by the time we actually deployed
[00:52:50] We were we had it pretty well down
[00:52:54] Fast forward a little bit in the bustling jock the mission was developing very rapidly
[00:52:58] We couldn't wait to see if our targets would just hang around drinking tea and bullshitting about women and weather
[00:53:03] We couldn't hope to have a CIA asset wander into the target building snap a covert photo of the party and also back out with a
[00:53:10] 100% confirmation we had to go on information and belief and faith
[00:53:16] But in a special ops environment no element leader can afford to be shy about offering solutions or raising dilemmas
[00:53:22] I was a combat vampire who loved the night
[00:53:26] But I held my piece about the risk of a daylight up because there was no other option
[00:53:31] Yet a number of other officers quickly voiced issues to a background score of distant helo turbines
[00:53:37] Winding up and desert combat boots thumping across the tarmac like heavy hail sir someone said to General Garrison
[00:53:45] I've got some ex-fail issues. What's on your mind?
[00:53:49] Okay air expiltration is not an option so we're forced to use the ground convoy
[00:53:53] But I think we might wrap it up long before the vehicles are on position
[00:53:57] We'll be there when you're ready said Colonel McNight has lightly armored humvies and five ton trucks
[00:54:03] We're already assembled to move to a rendezvous point near the Olympic hotel. I wondered if the hotel had a single client this year or ever
[00:54:11] But that but the place is nasty with skinis today someone else said using the nickname for hostile semallies
[00:54:17] We might get boxed in on the return
[00:54:20] Ex-fail by airs a negative another pilot stated firmly the plan called for the helo is to hover it about 30 feet
[00:54:27] Uncoil fast ropes and let the de boys and Rangers slide down them like firemen on slick poles
[00:54:32] But there was nowhere to land our choppers and pick them up
[00:54:35] We could do a rooftop extraction
[00:54:37] But like we saw in the last mission hovering up there like sitting ducks makes us very vulnerable to RPG gunners
[00:54:43] And there's an antenna tower on the target building an SF officer jabbed at a video monitor with his glove finger
[00:54:50] We'd have to blow it before the helo came back in and it'll take time
[00:54:54] Don't sweat it boys midnight said to his Ranger officers your convoy will be there and if it's not garrison-grinned
[00:55:01] Around his cigar stub the helo's will come in and pull your asses out like they always do and that was it
[00:55:06] We've been there for all of 10 minutes
[00:55:13] Was this like TST time sensitive target where it came up real quick? Yeah
[00:55:18] In fact we were planning a training up we were gonna go shoot because we had the daps there
[00:55:23] But we hadn't used them yet and you know ammunition gets all least that's what we told the commander
[00:55:27] It's like beer in the fridge you know if you don't consume it it's gonna go bad
[00:55:30] So we were gonna do some shooting and that's why I was in the job
[00:55:35] We were planning that flight and
[00:55:38] This thing developed so fast I actually didn't have time to go back to my bunk and get my knee board
[00:55:43] I just went without it because we filmed this thing so many times I didn't need it anyway
[00:55:47] But yeah, so from the time we found out that you know these personnel were identified to off off the ground was
[00:55:56] Definitely less than an hour maybe 40 minutes to get the whole entourage up and going crank all those birds and brief everybody
[00:56:02] I mean it seems like a lot of time. That's not a lot of time at all. Yeah
[00:56:07] the
[00:56:09] You were the daytime portion of it the fact that you were going out in the day you say you like going out the night
[00:56:17] But it was the target that was driving you to do this during the day
[00:56:20] They were there you had a pretty good confirmation not a hundred percent like you said in the book, but a pretty decent confirmation and
[00:56:27] That's it they're there. We're gonna go get him. Yeah. I mean there was a guy in the ground and he
[00:56:32] gave the signal that meant you know positive ID and
[00:56:35] And at that point your decision is you know we take the risk and go or we wait and then they move and we lose them and
[00:56:42] That's you know that's the commander's decision. I don't I don't question it
[00:56:45] I probably would have made the same call
[00:56:47] But you know unfortunately it's three o'clock in the afternoon and we can't use the you know the advantage that we have with all of our night vision technology
[00:56:56] Yeah, it's a crazy advantage. It's a crazy advantage
[00:57:01] I know of we did a lot of daytime operate my my second deployment did a lot of daytime operations
[00:57:07] My first deployment we did limited daytime operations for that very reasons we go into a clock in the morning
[00:57:12] There's no no no factor no resistance but sometimes same exact thing we'd get hey this guy is here now
[00:57:18] In this market and this village and this building we just we would go
[00:57:21] So there's there's definitely an elevated risk
[00:57:25] During the day and the tactical advantage they have a night at night can't be cannot be understated at all
[00:57:33] Right actually there were four risks. I talked about these all the time
[00:57:37] Because I was a flight lead so that means I'm I'm I'm actually in the planning
[00:57:41] You know and in the final decision making process with the general garrison and all the element commanders and
[00:57:47] The four risks at least from a heel perspective identified as as you know for first the foremost daytime
[00:57:53] Second one we can't lend the heels like you just talked about so we can we have to fast rope in and we can't do an easy extraction
[00:57:59] The third one is that we've done this six times before and the fourth one is it's in the worst part of the city
[00:58:08] This is right where all the bad guys hang out they call it the blacksy area
[00:58:12] So all four of those things were identified and people asked me because there was a lot of criticism after the fact
[00:58:17] You know should have gone shouldn't have gone
[00:58:19] But you know when you're in the moment it's it's like often uses a quarterbacks as an example
[00:58:25] It's easy to criticize that quarterback for throw that interception, but when you're in the moment and that receivers open and you know
[00:58:31] There's a lot on the line this third down
[00:58:34] You know you need to touch down bad and you throw that ball
[00:58:38] You can't you can't criticize that decision. I mean that decision was made in the moment and you don't know
[00:58:43] You know that the receivers gonna fall because he slipped on a
[00:58:46] Just like piece of grass, you know you're making a decision based on what you know at the time and and I would never criticize
[00:58:52] General Garrison for making that call and I always tell people not of us felt great
[00:58:57] But I think we all felt comfortable enough. We went out there saying all right, you know
[00:59:01] This is not gonna be probably like most the other ones, but we're we're comfortable enough
[00:59:06] And you had done a daytime operation or other daytime operations. Yeah, and so you had thrown those passes before and they were caught by the receiver
[00:59:14] Like you intended and hey, we're gonna do it again because we've done it before
[00:59:20] hindsight is always 20
[00:59:24] And again you got to buy this book because there's there's more details and there obviously I'm not covering the whole thing
[00:59:30] I'm fast-moin a little bit here the Rangers and the Delta Force guys being inserted
[00:59:37] And here's your perspective. I brought super six for you as low as possible to a 24-hover using a utility pole straight down through the chin
[00:59:43] Bubble as my reference ropes. I called over my the intercom my crew chief Tommy Bill echoed me loud and the thick green
[00:59:50] Housers were deployed
[00:59:52] It was a well-rehearsed routine all I had to do is keep it steady holding the forward left box position with chalk two right behind me
[00:59:59] chalk three a beam to the right and chalk four right behind him
[01:00:03] But the pilot of the last chopper super six seven had been flying sea two bird until today
[01:00:09] Just up there boring holes in the sky and this was his first encounter with the with the brown monster the dust cloud
[01:00:16] Most more than a hundred feet high and he felt his way down to it like a waiter tip-towing into an ice cold lake
[01:00:23] He deployed his ropes too early and they were 30 only 30 feet long a Ranger went out his door
[01:00:30] Lost his grip on the rope and fell into oblivion
[01:00:32] It was right there and then that the mission started to unravel like the hem of an old sweater as you tug on one
[01:00:40] Loose strand but I didn't know any of that at the time. I was having problems of my own
[01:00:45] Right ropes hung up on a wire. It was Bill's voice in my ear dead common steady telling me
[01:00:50] We'd snagged on probably the last telephone wire still intact and Mogadissue of all the damn phone lines in the city
[01:00:56] I fought forward 10 bill offered a correction as he peered down past as many gun at
[01:01:02] At the snare to hauser and I carefully nudged the helo forward
[01:01:07] Holdy saying I could tell by his tone that the rope was dangling straight and free and I held it steady while our 18 Rangers
[01:01:14] Leap for the lines like comic book heroes
[01:01:16] I could hear steals chalk leader barking go go go and the butt plates of M16's and M60 light machine gun scraping and banging against my floor
[01:01:25] As the troops dove into the desk dust storm
[01:01:28] Within seconds they were all gone
[01:01:30] Good luck guys. I whispered as Bill and Tommy trip the releases and the ropes fell from their mounts like limp cobras
[01:01:37] None of us had a clue that those young Rangers were in for the fight of their lives
[01:01:41] ropes clear Tommy announced and I hauled the helo into a rising left bank as I keep my mic
[01:01:47] Super six four is out and that was it. I thought it was over
[01:01:57] You go out to a holding pattern now and
[01:01:59] Like other operations that you've gone on that's you go out in your holding pattern everyone the boys on the ground do what the boys on the ground do
[01:02:07] Didn't take them very long seem did they they were getting the target secured getting the principles
[01:02:14] You know taken get them controlled get them blindfolded get them cuffed
[01:02:19] That Ranger that had fallen he was critically injured on top of that
[01:02:25] You you learn that
[01:02:27] He will they weren't near their designated area
[01:02:31] Either and I was watching some video
[01:02:34] Though that brownout situation was great. I've been in Tana Brownout
[01:02:38] I guess it was because it was in the city brownout. Is that what made it worse? Yeah because if you land in the desert
[01:02:44] There's a technique that we learn where you almost like land like an airplane
[01:02:48] Right you come down and you get a little bit of ground roll and you stay ahead of the cloud
[01:02:52] But you can't do that in the city. I mean you're in it. Yeah
[01:02:55] So you got to find some kind of reference and like I was talking about my reference was there was a pole right there
[01:03:00] And that's about all I could see but at least it was enough to maintain the position
[01:03:04] But you know the further back you are in the flight the worst of gets because you got yours and
[01:03:09] Everybody else is in front of you that you're dealing with so and that guy's defense
[01:03:13] He was he had the worst of it and unfortunately is a little bit inexperienced. Yeah, and in an open desert the the dust has somewhere to go
[01:03:20] You know it'll it'll
[01:03:21] Expand out to this or expand out to the sides and you could see on these videos
[01:03:25] I was watching that dust has nowhere to go. So it's going straight back up in the air. Right. There's the biggest dust clouds
[01:03:30] I've seen massive it was it was pretty rough, but we had we had gotten the technique down pretty well at that point
[01:03:37] Unfortunately he had had much experience with it
[01:03:41] You're in you're now monitoring radius where do you want one net?
[01:03:45] We you on monitoring the ground net and the internet was their multiple nets or we wrong one net multiple nets
[01:03:52] Yeah, we I always
[01:03:54] I make up this phrase but go to helmet fire when things go really crazy and every net is just
[01:04:00] You know lid up we've got five radios in our head
[01:04:04] So it gets pretty ugly because there's there's a there's a command net. There's air to air net
[01:04:08] There's air to ground net. There's a fires net and
[01:04:11] And sometimes you can even listen to the tactical commanders net if you want to so that's a lot of stuff to keep track of and and you know as long as there's not much going on
[01:04:20] It works. Thanks. Why but wouldn't
[01:04:23] Crap starts happening. It gets it gets pretty hard to decipher
[01:04:27] I had in my
[01:04:30] Plotoons in my task you weren't allowed to talk on the radio like you weren't a lot like everybody knew
[01:04:35] They wouldn't say something on the radio unless it was no possible other way of communicating it for this
[01:04:40] Very reason because when things will go sideways everyone if they think they can just start talking about what's important them
[01:04:46] The nets get cluttered up and then you put five nets of that
[01:04:51] It was another one that I would have never thought about before but there's a think all the CEO
[01:04:57] I you know for those who aren't familiar with it would basically
[01:04:59] Give you the call signs and frequency and all this stuff so like in the CEO
[01:05:03] I your unit would be one designation and then you're rolling that unit would be another let's just say x-ray
[01:05:08] 6-7 that means that's x-ray unit and 6-7 is the commander. Well in another unit it might be Zulu
[01:05:16] 6-7
[01:05:17] But what people started doing in in in in the chaos was abbreviate
[01:05:22] 6-7 so which freakin 6-7 is this you know and and it really kind of oh expose the wheat is at least from my perspective
[01:05:28] And that's probably not a great way to do this and you know it needs to be
[01:05:32] Structured differently and I don't know whether I ever got resolved
[01:05:35] But it's the only experience I ever had where people started just abbreviating who they were and you just lost track
[01:05:40] Because it's just too much going on yeah and especially pilots
[01:05:44] They talk real smooth and quick and fast and they're almost immediately
[01:05:49] They'll dump the first part of their call sign when you start talking to them right right that's just habitual for them
[01:05:53] We got to get the crew to get their train tables up before you
[01:05:56] You got to be able to get it out
[01:06:02] Going back to the book
[01:06:04] The ex-ville convoy we started to take heavy murderous fire
[01:06:08] We've lost a five-ton truck
[01:06:10] I heard that and ray and I'd glance at each other the ground transmissions were broken and hard to understand
[01:06:16] We switched radios for better reception things were starting to heat up down there
[01:06:21] But we just sat there and breathed and flew around and around waiting
[01:06:24] I knew Cliff Walcott and his called copilot Donovan Briley
[01:06:28] We're back in there with super six one giving fire support from three SF shooters on board and their crew chiefs many guns
[01:06:35] From what I could gather as I squinted straining to hear the samallies were coming from every doorway and from behind every wall
[01:06:42] But all we could do is sit up there and our safe haven feeling helpless while our people were in deep shit and we knew it
[01:06:51] Super six one is going down. It was Cliff's voice
[01:06:54] He was talking about himself and his own hero something and hit his bird and he and Donovan were going to crash
[01:07:00] I swallowed disbeliefing what I'd heard super six one is going down Cliff Walcott and Donovan Briley were real good friends of mine
[01:07:07] We were all from the same platoon. We were close
[01:07:10] We'd been together for a long time traveled on the road together party together our families knew each other very well
[01:07:15] I shook it off. They'll be all right. I decided that'll have to land maybe a hard landing or something
[01:07:20] But the star bird will fly in and pick them up and we'll all go home
[01:07:23] The possibility that Cliff and Donovan might die didn't cross my mind. I couldn't see them from my position
[01:07:29] So I painted it the way I needed to see it at the moment as it was an RPG
[01:07:34] Round had blown a bitch big chunk off their bird
[01:07:37] They started spinning out of control while Donovan shut down the engines and Cliff tried to get the aircraft on the ground to one piece
[01:07:43] But those damn narrow streets the heelos smack down on a reinforced concrete wall
[01:07:48] Pivoted and crashed nose first in those few seconds everything changed the radios
[01:07:54] Which up till now at his the occasional code word or updates went crazy?
[01:07:59] Sure we'd all prepared for the possibility of a bird going down
[01:08:02] But the timing and location were about as bad as they could be
[01:08:06] The ground assault element with prisoners already until was order to regrow
[01:08:10] Grig group at the fresh crash site the exville convoy suddenly had a new and even more deadly
[01:08:15] Labyrinth to fight through air elements were being summoned for support. It was now constant chatter back and forth
[01:08:21] The voice is still steady, but ominously urgent
[01:08:26] On this mission the worst had happened. We had a bird down and the survivors were surrounded
[01:08:38] Are you aware of casualties at this point? I'm not in fact the part that still tough for me to
[01:08:45] Process is I did not know that Cliff and Donovan had died until I actually got released from captivity
[01:08:51] And I'm laying there in in the field hospital and all the guys come over to see me and I'm looking around
[01:08:59] I like where's Cliff and Donovan and the commander start crying. I mean
[01:09:04] It was just you don't think you can happen, you know, and you know
[01:09:08] I think back to some of the other options you were talking about it
[01:09:11] You just look over in their bumps there, you know, and they're not there anymore. It's just it's just
[01:09:16] I don't know it's hard it's hard to
[01:09:19] It's hard to describe if you haven't lived it, you know, to see the impact that that has and then then you come back and you see their families
[01:09:28] You know, we're still in touch. I just saw Donovan's wife and daughter about it. We can have a go and
[01:09:34] You know the holes never felt it's gone forever and
[01:09:37] Just amazing great Americans and honor to have served them
[01:09:47] When you when you compare your mindset at the time clearly you know that things are going bad
[01:09:53] Was it possible for you to tell how bad they were going with the with the situation that the ground force was in?
[01:09:58] I mean they were getting
[01:10:00] smashed
[01:10:01] Will you aware of that?
[01:10:03] Well, there was a lot of talk on the net, but you know with the bird down that's gonna happen anyway, so and I am a bit of an eternal optimist
[01:10:11] And I'm thinking yeah, all right this speed bump, you know, I mean we'll get through this we just got to clean this up
[01:10:17] Never in my wildest dreams would have thought that you know Cliff and Donovan had already been killed or the things that were going on on the ground
[01:10:23] The fatalities that already been taken
[01:10:25] There wasn't a lot of talk about losses yet on the radio that I did I had heard anyway
[01:10:30] But you know obviously it ramps up pretty quick here a few minutes
[01:10:36] Going back to the book here kernel math used called me on the net six four I need you to go and take six ones play so over the target
[01:10:43] I was expecting that call the come we had practiced this exact contingency just a few days before the mock shoot down of six one
[01:10:49] And I was rolling in I was rolling out of holding even as I answered Roger six for going in
[01:10:55] Even with everything I knew now my mind's eye flashing me on holy images my hands and feet didn't his
[01:11:02] Hasidate we broke formation known in the helicopter set of word ray Tommy Bill and I all knew what had just happened to our friends
[01:11:10] One bird was down in the city another was hit and the ground force was decisively engaged
[01:11:15] We were playing for keeps on this one. I broke silence on the inner column and make it a little sticky in there
[01:11:20] Let's all keep our heads in the game
[01:11:23] There was no response
[01:11:24] I had it back for the target site at full power running right along the rooftops
[01:11:28] We were going to provide fire support for the ground elements, but I realized that everyone had been
[01:11:33] Told now to consolidate at the crash site platoon squads and sections would be racing door to door toward that new position
[01:11:39] It would be very hard to distinguish friend from foe and such a melee
[01:11:44] We couldn't just cowboy in their spewing 4,000 rounds a minute
[01:11:47] Tommy and Bill's electrically controlled miniguns could be armed only by me throwing a switch in the cockpit
[01:11:53] I spoke to them very carefully
[01:11:55] Okay, I said I'm arming your guns, but we're not doing any shooting until we figure out where everyone is
[01:12:01] Roger that they grunted Raj
[01:12:04] Within seconds we were back over the target area flying a wide circular pattern trying to locate cliffs clad crash site and clearly spot the enemy before we opened up on him
[01:12:14] We were in a hard left bank with me up high in the right seat
[01:12:18] So I was peering past Ray and down into total confusion it was just smoke and dust and indistinguishable sprinting forms
[01:12:26] I tried to raise super six two cliff and dawn of in the wingman
[01:12:31] But the air to air net was jammed up and the AMC kept telling us to vary our pattern and minimize exposure time
[01:12:37] I janked it up and down getting high getting low trying to make us hard to hit all to aware that the
[01:12:43] Somali's were now shooting at us from every rooftop and street corner
[01:12:51] Something slammed into my helicopter and that's where we opened this up
[01:12:55] That's where we started the podcast
[01:13:05] This I was again I was watching some videos the the actual videos and there's freaking Somali's everywhere
[01:13:11] I you because you're seeing different angles and there's just Somali's everywhere and they were just lighting up everyone and everything and all the birds
[01:13:22] What's crazy about this whole thing you know again you have a picture of the map and in this in the book
[01:13:28] It's like a mile away two miles away this whole thing
[01:13:32] Is all I mean you you're out at sea hovering in your safe spot and
[01:13:37] And seconds later you're over the target
[01:13:40] How long we over the target for before before you got hit not long we made it around about three times and you know
[01:13:46] You touched on it but the hard part for us is trying to figure out what's going on on the ground
[01:13:49] I mean you can't just
[01:13:50] hose everybody down right so and and I don't think people can appreciate how hard it is being in a helicopter because
[01:13:58] So I tell them if you want to get some perspective on what this is like
[01:14:02] Go to a big city somewhere and drive down through the heart of town in the middle of the night going 90 miles an hour
[01:14:09] And see how much situational awareness you can get on the side streets as you go by them
[01:14:13] That's essentially the same thing so you can't really tell you didn't get you didn't get a look at it long enough
[01:14:18] Because the angles are constantly changing and you see a person here
[01:14:21] But then by the time you get a chance to figure out is that a threat is that a friendly?
[01:14:25] They're gone. I mean you're you're you're you're past them
[01:14:27] So we you know how long is it take to get around about three times? I don't know maybe two minutes and
[01:14:33] We were not even close to the point where we felt like we could shoot. I mean that's a that weapon, you know
[01:14:38] I'm just gonna tear the place up so we we never fired around I
[01:14:44] Have you been to foul in Nevada flying up there? So I was like a new guy and I was a radio man when I was in
[01:14:50] List of guy and so I was always calling the helos for extract and stuff and I was calling him
[01:14:54] He was it was daytime. I'm calling in helos. We're in foul Nevada. So this is a desert environment. It's open desert and there's some little shrubs
[01:15:02] But not much and I'm calling this helicopter and I'm looking and they are not far away and I have like probably a little
[01:15:11] Three foot or maybe four foot by four foot aircraft panel and so I go hey, you know
[01:15:16] I mark you identify and I'm sitting there looking they they couldn't been more than 200 yards away
[01:15:20] Maybe 300 yards away. It's a freaking giant helicopter. I'm holding up this aircraft panel bright orange
[01:15:28] Aircraft panel for them to see me and they're like we don't see you and I'm thinking about
[01:15:33] What do you get me there's two aircraft? I got a squad of seals out here there's eight seals
[01:15:38] Sure, we're wearing camouflage, but we feel completely naked. I'm thinking if you would have asked me to put money
[01:15:43] I would have bet you know two months pay that this that this these helicopters can see us a hundred
[01:15:49] percent and I'm gonna hold this aircraft panel up they couldn't see us. It is so different when you're up there
[01:15:55] So different when you're up there and we they didn't find that those two helos didn't find us until we popped purple smoke
[01:16:01] And then they will oh yeah, we got you
[01:16:04] It was crazy so what you are seeing when you're in the air and you're moving it's really hard to figure out what's going on down there
[01:16:10] Yeah, it was impossible
[01:16:11] We probably could have orbited for 20 minutes and would have not had full situation awareness
[01:16:15] Would you gotta have because I mean
[01:16:17] You know the the the the fratricide is not acceptable no matter what I mean and when that was our biggest concern
[01:16:27] So you go down
[01:16:31] Fast forward I woke up in the silence of my own grave at least that's what I believed in that first moment because the last flash of
[01:16:39] Consciousness I had clearly seen the clawing hand of the grim reaper
[01:16:43] I did not know where I was I did not know who I was it was like emerging from an altitude chamber with a case of
[01:16:50] Hypocce as my mind begin to stagger slowly through the dark dark and hallways of my concussed brain
[01:16:56] When my eyelids finally flooded open I was stunned to take in light
[01:17:01] The choppers windshield was almost completely gone
[01:17:04] Peerston disintegrated by a slab of corrugated metal that had stopped only inches from my face
[01:17:08] Yet my first sense of emotion wasn't relief but a fury at the disfiguring of my helicopter by that rusty blade
[01:17:15] I reached up to shove the thing from my pocket and then pain swept over me like a wave of molten lava
[01:17:25] My back was broken two of my vertebraids smack together on impact displacing the discs between and
[01:17:31] Polverizing each other every muscle my back must have tried to prevent that catastrophe and been ripped apart in the effort
[01:17:37] And it felt like some evil giant had a grip on me
[01:17:40] I stopped moving and just tried to breathe without passing out
[01:17:44] I sure as hell was fully conscious now although my thoughts and reflexes seemed to trudged through a
[01:17:49] Sort of syrupy fog slowly I moved my aching hand and clenched around the cockpit and found I was sitting level with the floor
[01:17:56] The seats in the blackhawk are designed to stroke downward and a major cross crash and mine had done that and more
[01:18:02] My right leg felt strangely numb and as soon as I tried to move it
[01:18:06] I knew that the femur had broken clean and half over the edge of my Kevlar seat my m9 pistol was still strapped in my right thigh
[01:18:14] And it and it's a way shifted I could feel splintered ends of my bones grinding against one another
[01:18:21] But it didn't hurt all that much my crushed a vertebrae where monopolizing my pain centers
[01:18:26] I was dead sure that I couldn't get myself out of the cockpit
[01:18:29] They blackhawks hard enough to get out of when you're healthy you have to control yourself on maneuvering your limbs around the seat and the controls
[01:18:36] I could barely move I saw my MP5 submachine gun lying on the floor near my left foot where I left it as I reached forward
[01:18:44] I made sure it was cocked and locked and laid it across my lap
[01:18:47] I could hear some thin muffled shouts in the distance the samallies would surely try to overrun us and it looked like I just have to fight it out right there
[01:18:55] Where I sat and then I remembered I wasn't alone
[01:18:58] I looked over at Ray his helmet was gone and he was slowly edging himself off his seat
[01:19:03] Which had collapsed in the floor just like mine the acreed smell of spilled jet fuel mix with dry dust was in the air
[01:19:09] And I heard someone moaning unintelligible from the back of the chopper. It was Bill Cleveland's voice
[01:19:14] But nothing he muttered made any sense. There wasn't a sound from Tommy Field Ray looked at me
[01:19:20] I tried to pull them off
[01:19:22] He meant the injured engines. I know it couldn't do it
[01:19:26] I glanced up at the power control levers. You got him halfway
[01:19:31] He didn't say anything for a moment and then left to be his broken. I think right femur here and and my back too
[01:19:37] Yeah, he said and then he slowly maneuvered himself until he was sitting in the door sill with his back to me
[01:19:44] I'm moving Mike he said I'll be right here
[01:19:48] Ray nodded and then he gripped the sill with his hands and carefully lowered himself to the ground
[01:19:53] I couldn't see him any anymore and I would never see him again
[01:19:58] I knew we were about to be in the battle for our lives
[01:20:00] We were down in the middle of Mogadishu and there was no doubt in my mind that the samallies were coming for us
[01:20:14] You can't
[01:20:16] There's no way for you to get out of the helicopter at this point. No
[01:20:19] It's like it's that you know to get in and out of about 60 you got a got a twist and bend and you know sling your leg over the cyclic and
[01:20:28] I can't and there's just no way so I decided I'm gonna fight it out from right there and your femurs broken your back is
[01:20:35] totally jacked up
[01:20:37] Can you hear some alleyes in the distance? No, it was you know what I think when you aircraft first hit
[01:20:49] Obviously quite the event in this neighborhood
[01:20:52] You know there's 20,000 pound machine crashes from the sky so I think they all ran initially and then you know over time
[01:20:58] They started to kind of
[01:21:00] Sneak their way back in trying to figure out what was going on. Did you know where you were?
[01:21:04] Generally but I mean if you know if you'd ask me at that moment put my finger on a map I
[01:21:10] Wouldn't have gotten all that close. I don't think
[01:21:17] Fast forward a little bit just then
[01:21:20] Randy Schuckart and Gary Gordon appeared on the right side of our chopper
[01:21:24] They would delta operators and although I didn't know them personally or by name
[01:21:27] I certainly knew who they were
[01:21:29] More than once I'd brief them and the other members of their teams prior to assaults in the city
[01:21:34] Since they were wearing no helmets I recognize them instantly Randy was carrying a high-tech sniper rifle and Gary had a car 15
[01:21:41] The short-barled version of the M16 assault rifle and their load bearing harnesses were slung with ammunition and grenades
[01:21:49] Brandy and Gary didn't say very much. They knew the situation was critical and they were there to work not chat
[01:21:55] They asked me about my injuries
[01:21:56] Well my like my right legs broke and I said and I think my back
[01:22:00] Uh-huh
[01:22:01] They nodded and set themselves in position to lift me out of the cockpit
[01:22:04] They raised me up gently
[01:22:07] So they take you they carry you out of the cockpit and put you in a in a position
[01:22:15] Where you're gonna have to stay because you can't move
[01:22:20] You say super six four sat in the pale dirt. It's belly smeared in the ground. It's big rotors dead still
[01:22:26] And drooping like wilted palm fronds. I couldn't see anyone in the cargo bay Tommy
[01:22:31] Tommy fields minigun it's swung around hard and struck him full in the chest upon impact
[01:22:35] It was a very heavy weapon and crushed his entire rib cage
[01:22:40] Something else inside the chopper had torn up build Cleveland really bad just in front of them and to my right was a long shack and a large tree
[01:22:48] It's high leaves rustling in the hot wind and throwing some shade into me
[01:22:51] The only open area was between between me that shack and my heel
[01:22:58] My heel is cockpit a clear field of fire Randy and Gary knew what they were doing
[01:23:03] They handed me my MP5 and the single spare magazine a total of 60 rounds of 9 millimeter ammo
[01:23:10] But they didn't say a word as they walked off around the nose of the helicopter
[01:23:15] I
[01:23:18] Her bills voice again and twisted my head around shoe cart Gordon had placed him on the ground behind me
[01:23:26] He was still in coherent and great pain
[01:23:29] Some of his flight gear had been removed and his trousers were soaked in blood
[01:23:35] I suddenly missed my family very much especially my young son Joey
[01:23:38] I did not want to die here and even as I fought it the fear began to well up. I was badly injured and scared
[01:23:45] And there was no doubt about it. I did not want to fall in the hands of the samallies just a few weeks before
[01:23:50] They'd overrun some Nigerian troops and rumors about what they had done to them were too gruesome to believe
[01:23:57] And the samallies had done that to fellow Africans so I couldn't even imagine what they might do to us
[01:24:02] The image of mutilation that flashed into my mind terrified me
[01:24:10] Randy and Gary came back around the nose the helo. I wasn't sure what they were doing but they is suit
[01:24:15] But I assumed they were looking for an area large enough to land an aircraft and get us out of there
[01:24:19] They were common deliberate talking to each other like a couple of surveyors planning a new parking lot
[01:24:24] But I knew they were frustrated
[01:24:26] They had four badly injured men on their hands and it was impossible to move even a short distance
[01:24:39] So there's a little calm almost before the storm at this juncture. There is
[01:24:44] Again, I don't think the small is hadn't organized yet. They were still just kind of coming back in ones
[01:24:48] He Tuesdays and I think that people that lived in that area
[01:24:51] It may not have been you know part of the hobby we get our clan or we're in armed
[01:24:56] They just had to live there but once we're got out that there was an aircraft down that was lightly defended and surrounded
[01:25:03] Then they got an organized group to come that way
[01:25:11] You say from the other side of the tin wall to my right I heard a small eat I heard some molly voices
[01:25:15] It sounded like they were trying to get out of us, but I didn't think you know
[01:25:18] But I didn't think it over for more than a second my MP5 was set on single shop mode and I put it to use firing four quick rounds right through the wall
[01:25:26] I didn't hear the voices anymore
[01:25:28] When I stopped shooting Randy and Gary looked at me as if surprised that a badly injured chopper pilot might actually be used
[01:25:35] Fwant a firefight
[01:25:36] They didn't speak but they moved around to the front of the heel again until they were out of sight
[01:25:43] And now things start to build and you you know you detailed this in the book
[01:25:47] You start here in more AK fire on top of the AK fire you also hear double taps
[01:25:52] From Randy and Gary as they're engaged in these enemy fighters
[01:25:58] Your firing fire through the wall you got your gun starts jamming from time to time
[01:26:05] You actually emptied your first magazine
[01:26:07] I mean get your other magazine in you fire in at these people that are approaching you approaching the helicopter
[01:26:18] You talk about your weapon the thing was stressing me out and it fired just fine at the range
[01:26:22] But it was clear the damn gun needed a good cleaning
[01:26:25] I couldn't claim that I had had time for some basic that I hadn't had time for some basic maintenance
[01:26:30] And I could hear the ghostly echoes of so many drill instructors keep your goddamn weapon clean
[01:26:35] MP-fives are like
[01:26:39] So reliable too. Yeah, I don't think it was it must have been jacked up for landing. I'm not sure
[01:26:46] But pretty frustrating when you know that's the only thing you got
[01:26:51] Could have been your magazines too. Yeah, sometimes if your magazines are messed up like they won't feed properly
[01:26:58] You know I hadn't thought about that maybe just the impact itself
[01:27:00] You know
[01:27:01] Dislauged the bullets or something or messed up the spraying or who knows what MP-fives are so reliable
[01:27:08] I've shot thousands and thousands and thousands and thousands of rounds and sometimes we would just purposely not clean them to see if they would ever jam
[01:27:16] They didn't ever would jam a bet your weapon got jacked up
[01:27:20] So you don't have to feel guilty about your drone instructors. Oh, I feel better now
[01:27:24] Okay
[01:27:29] Because it was just sitting there. It wasn't it wasn't in any kind of malnour anything. It just
[01:27:34] Amazing getting fly out of the aircraft actually. I just had it sitting on the floor
[01:27:41] You get some grenades go get a grenade thrown at you
[01:27:45] You say it first I've been happy just to survive the crash then I accepted that I'd fight to the death
[01:27:49] Then swell devolation at that promise of rescue now we were taking heavy fire
[01:27:54] We'd almost been overrun and they were throwing goddamn grenades in here
[01:27:58] I was dripping with sweat pain half paralyzed and out of ammo the stench spilled the stench of spilled jet fuel and gun smoke and rotting garbage
[01:28:07] Or the oh would be my only escorts to my death
[01:28:11] Randy and Gary were out there somewhere on the other side of the chopper desperately trying to hold off the engines
[01:28:16] The burst of AK fire was starting to roll together like a thunder storm. I was alone. It was turning into the freaking alamo
[01:28:25] Damn I'm hit
[01:28:27] He was Gary's voice from the other side of the chopper a Somali bullet had found him yet
[01:28:31] He wasn't so much as what he said but how he'd said it. He sounded almost irritated like this was just going to make things harder for him
[01:28:39] It wasn't a scream or a plea just a statement of fact like someone who'd nicked himself with a vegetable knife
[01:28:44] At that point I'm sure he realized how desperate our situation had become
[01:28:51] No one was coming for us
[01:28:58] Yeah, I mean because of your sort of awareness of the whole situation
[01:29:06] You had some thought in your mind that hey look, I mean we crashed the the the Kazovak bird will be in here soon
[01:29:13] The ground force will be someone will be okay. We just got to hold him off for a little bit
[01:29:19] And that wasn't the reality the reality with everything that was going on you guys were on your own
[01:29:24] Yeah, because this the search of risky bird already been shot out and we had asked for a tank actually
[01:29:29] Because as you mentioned we're only two miles from the airfield
[01:29:33] So our thought was if we have a tank it can get out there and and do extractions is just as well better than a helicopter
[01:29:39] And it's one of the things that I always you know stress when I talk about this at the macro level
[01:29:45] That was denied but at the secretary of defense level and you know first of all secretary defense should be making decisions like that
[01:29:51] But it was it was based on political reasons
[01:29:54] They didn't want to throw more assets into a place that you know they've been advertising you know was basically wrapping up and
[01:30:01] Put basically hung us all out to dry
[01:30:03] Yeah, just in case anyone's wondering a tank can go through that area with absolutely no factor whatsoever, right?
[01:30:10] I mean, this is just small arms and RPGs that's no factor at all. Pounds right off. Yep
[01:30:21] Only minutes before Randy and Gary jumped from a hovering helicopter rescue us
[01:30:26] They had fought their way through a maze of paths and shanties driving off seemless seemingly countless
[01:30:31] Somali gunmen they'd already done more than any two men could be expected to do they put their own lives on the line to try and help their fellow American soldiers
[01:30:41] Gary Gordon died on the other side of that helicopter. I don't know exactly when and I don't know exactly how but I never saw her
[01:30:48] him again
[01:30:49] He died before I even learned his name
[01:30:53] I will never forget him
[01:30:56] Randy Schuukart came back around the cockpit
[01:30:58] Striding toward me and showing little more than professional concern in his expression
[01:31:04] They're throwing grenades in here. I told him
[01:31:06] But he didn't seem to worry about that. He was focused on our critical shortage of ammo and he looked at my now uses mp5
[01:31:12] Are the other weapons in the aircraft he asked
[01:31:15] By crew chiefs keep their own sixteenths in between the seats
[01:31:18] He went off to helicopter without a word climbed in and started digging around moments later
[01:31:22] He returned carrying the longer m16 and a car 15 the short-billed submachine gun
[01:31:26] I'd seen in Gary's hands
[01:31:29] He handed me the smaller weapon and for some reason it felt much better in my grip than my own mp5
[01:31:34] He held up a PRC 112 survival radio
[01:31:38] What channels a fire net on?
[01:31:40] It was odd he didn't even have to shout
[01:31:42] There was gunfire echoing from the far side of the aircraft but in hesitant ones and two's channel bravo I replied
[01:31:48] Randy made a call on the fire support net which gave him a direct line to little bird guns and fire support officer
[01:31:57] A little bird was flying high over our position
[01:32:00] A reaction forces and route came the return call from one of the helicopters the voice sounded familiar
[01:32:06] I was sure it was one of the little bird pilots named Chris
[01:32:10] Now that was encouraging all we had to do was hold out a little bit longer. We needed help, but it was on the way
[01:32:15] We just got to keep them from overrunning us. We got to hang in there just a little bit more
[01:32:23] Randy probably knew right then and there that a little while more would not be soon enough
[01:32:29] He squinted out the radio stuff that into his combat harness
[01:32:33] Hefted his weapon and moved off around the nose and the helicopter
[01:32:37] He left without saying another word
[01:32:39] I would never see him again
[01:32:50] So that's
[01:32:56] Master Sergeant Gordon Gary Gordon you know
[01:32:59] Received a metal of honor
[01:33:11] For his actions that day and also Sergeant first class sugar
[01:33:19] And both those guys you know when you read their their citations
[01:33:23] They requested
[01:33:25] Multiple times to be able to go in to your position and
[01:33:31] Try and help the situation that was on the ground
[01:33:35] They got the Nied they got the Nied and finally they got permission to go in and do whatever they could
[01:33:43] And you know I can you know we already talked about what things look like from the air and you can only imagine
[01:33:51] Um
[01:33:53] You know actually that these guys knew exactly what they were getting into they knew the situation they were going into
[01:34:00] They knew the risks that they were taking
[01:34:03] They knew that no one was gonna be able to get in there besides them
[01:34:06] They had much better situational awareness than you did because they were up there watching it
[01:34:13] And yet
[01:34:15] They still Rogered up and went in there
[01:34:28] It's the most selfless act I've ever
[01:34:32] Certainly ever witnessed probably the most selfless I ever heard up
[01:34:37] Because it's a little bit different
[01:34:39] To be told to go in versus you know the way it went down
[01:34:43] I mean as I understand and of course I'm on the ground so I don't I don't know I don't didn't hear this personally
[01:34:49] But as I understand it you know, I mean garrison himself said no you're not going it
[01:34:53] And then they finally got directly on the radio and said he looks or if you don't let us in these guys are gone
[01:34:59] And after two or three different conversations like that he said all right put him in and
[01:35:06] You know I
[01:35:09] I just you know you think about if that was you
[01:35:12] When I don't mean you but I just in general terms
[01:35:17] Would you be that committed to your comrades to to go into that situation?
[01:35:22] I don't think you never say you do what you wouldn't you know, but they did it and they did it without hesitation and I think they did
[01:35:29] insist in on it for you know the rest of the mission if if he hadn't finally said yes and they're
[01:35:36] Absolutely deserving of the melalar
[01:35:38] We just did a a memorial dedication for for Gary Gordon this past fall actually in his own town of Lincoln main
[01:35:45] And again, it's another example of when you see the family and you realize you know how what an impact losing
[01:35:52] Someone like that has had on that old town actually and and his family you you understand what these sacrifices really mean
[01:36:00] They're just
[01:36:02] It's it's impossible to describe and
[01:36:05] And I mean it when I say I wouldn't be here without those two guys. Let me know question and there's no doubt about that
[01:36:20] Going back to the book here
[01:36:22] You say suddenly it grew very very quiet up until this point
[01:36:26] There had been quite a bit of gunfire
[01:36:28] Ebing and flowing and volume some from us and from some from them, but for some reason it all stopped for a few moments
[01:36:35] Maybe they've given up I told myself
[01:36:37] I could hear my own lungs raspin at the air like sandpaper on plywood
[01:36:40] Maybe the reaction forces coming in driving them away
[01:36:43] I had no idea of this might be true, but my fantasy was encouraging my mind worked hard to suppress the rising panic
[01:36:49] But my thoughts weren't remotely clear or focused. I couldn't move. I couldn't hide. I couldn't make myself invisible
[01:36:54] My body jerked and clenched and I clenched my fist as a huge volume of gunfire
[01:37:01] Shud suddenly shattered the silence
[01:37:03] It came from the far side of the chopper and it rolled in like a hurricane of the worst sounds that Satan could conjure
[01:37:09] Valleys of AK47 fire hammered at our helpless bird echoing off the cluster channies
[01:37:15] The heavy rounds piercing the chopper steel skin and ricocheting everywhere
[01:37:18] The only thing armored on that black hawk where the seats and I watched helpless and horrified as it was
[01:37:24] Punctured over and over again and it buckled like a down elephant under a hail of poachrifier
[01:37:29] Flying bullets plucked shorn metal and glass into the air and kicked up clots of doored all around me
[01:37:34] It went on for maybe an entire minute a short span of time that's stretching to an agonizing eternity
[01:37:40] I couldn't see anything through the Hulk of the smash chopper
[01:37:43] So I can't say for sure, but Randy Schukegar was probably the only American left fighting over there alone against a countless number of enemies
[01:37:50] He couldn't fight them all
[01:37:52] There's only matter of time before he went down and when Randy finally fell the shooting stopped
[01:37:58] The last valleys of gunfire echoed off the sparse trees
[01:38:04] Then the most terrifying minutes of my entire life began. I doubt there's a more horrific thing one could experience
[01:38:11] I still lie in bed at night and feel the flood of suffocating anxiety time seemed to stand absolutely still my skin crawled
[01:38:19] And every vein in my body throbbed with terror
[01:38:23] What did they really do to those Nigerians? I couldn't move. I could barely breathe
[01:38:28] How much pain can a man endure before his mind shuts down and retreats into the sanctuary of unconsciousness?
[01:38:33] I knew they were going to kill me. I just didn't know how death was on its way. I could hear it
[01:38:40] They were a mob of hate filled men and women and I couldn't see them yet
[01:38:43] But their voices grew louder and louder yelling and screaming and the sound that really made my blood run was the
[01:38:49] Clatter of debris being thrown out of the way as they advanced. It was like
[01:38:55] Some multi-limbed hydra stomping toward me thundering on the ground and furiously tossing away
[01:39:00] Shards of metal and wood as a drew near
[01:39:03] It was the sound of approaching death just overwhelmingly terrifying and I knew that as soon as they came across the nose of that helicopter and saw me
[01:39:11] They were going to chop me to pieces that's what they had done to the Nigerians
[01:39:15] That's what they did to everybody
[01:39:17] We had heard I witnessed accounts of them playing soccer with the skulls of their enemies
[01:39:22] The howling racket of the mob's rage grew louder and louder and I knew there was absolutely nothing
[01:39:28] I could do to save myself
[01:39:35] You had to be so 100% sure you were about to die. Yeah, I still remember the cloud
[01:39:39] There was a cloud going over and I just looked up at it and I thought you know
[01:39:44] Does it it's absolutely over?
[01:39:46] You know, there's no scenario here that you could think of that ends up in survival
[01:39:54] Yeah, they're let the thing that you're talking about with Nigerians that they had overrun a position and just
[01:40:00] Just murdered and butcher these Nigerians. Yeah, they took no prisoners out of everything. I could think of no other course of action
[01:40:14] I put the empty went weapon across my chest place my hands my open hands on top of it and stared up at the hazy blue sky
[01:40:21] In seconds the semalees would come for me
[01:40:23] Not an organized military enemy, but a mob of enraged civilians and militia with only one thing on their minds
[01:40:28] Vengeance a few clouds drifted by overhead that will know helicopters in sight
[01:40:34] I heard the rising victorious cries of the as the semalees swarmed around super six four
[01:40:40] Bountings of hundreds of fists against her battered hide a rattle like swarm of feeding locus
[01:40:47] I did not sob I did not pray no tears coursed down my cheeks for me and that one frozen moment in time
[01:40:54] All that I could do was wait for their arrival
[01:40:59] My Joey will never know his father
[01:41:12] So surprisingly when they get to you
[01:41:15] um well they they they grab and they start they start beating you and they start
[01:41:23] Assulting you but you don't get killed immediately
[01:41:26] You say I can't remember how many times they struck or club me
[01:41:29] But it was many many times a snarling face bent in and a man ripped the green badge news from
[01:41:34] Cored from around my neck that badge gave me access to task force Ranger compound and taped the back of it was my military
[01:41:41] Identification my metal dog tags went with it and as soon as he saw the green badge in his hand
[01:41:46] He stuck it in my face and shouted Ranger Ranger you die Somalia
[01:41:53] His scream curled my blood, but it shocked me even more that this man could know so much about our security and our procedures
[01:41:59] There was nothing on that green badge but a number
[01:42:02] I wondered how many of these were now hanging around the next of our enemies
[01:42:05] But I didn't wonder for long because two men began to work on my boots
[01:42:09] They barely tore the laces open before bracing their feet in the dirt and twisting and pulling
[01:42:14] I watched them tear my left boot off. I closed my eyes when they went for the right the pain of my broken
[01:42:19] Femur shot up through my shattered spine like a high voltage
[01:42:22] Electricution I looked up as a man raised something high above his head
[01:42:27] For a second the son haloed around the object and then he swung it down on me like a club it smashed into my face breaking my right eye socket and cheekbone
[01:42:35] For many years I have held my piece for the sake of the survivors the men who were killed
[01:42:42] Not refuting the can't claim that I was struck with the butt of a rifle
[01:42:46] But the truth is long overdue that object was not a rifle
[01:42:51] It was soft and very heavy
[01:42:53] It was the severed arms of one of my comrades
[01:42:56] I did not cry out or try to defend myself my assailant was poised for another blow and obviously preparing to beat me to death
[01:43:07] But I stared into his eyes with such hatred and defiance and discussed that he froze back to way and dropped his club
[01:43:15] Someone fired a shot in the air it didn't exactly bring things under control
[01:43:19] But it must have stilled the bloodless that was surging through the savage crowd
[01:43:23] Someone threw a handful of dirt in my eyes and mouth the grip blinded me and I choked and sputtered grip from my throat
[01:43:31] Someone else wrapped a filthy rag around my head
[01:43:33] I felt many hands clutching out my legs and shoulders and then they hoisted me high up in the air my crushed vertebrae hard
[01:43:40] Ground hard against each other as they stretched me out like a prisoner on the rack my broken femur cleaved into the back of my leg
[01:43:46] The sharp bone puncturing right out through my skin I
[01:43:54] Left my body the human mind has some defensive talents that only the dying or near dead can relay and mine took me to a place
[01:44:03] High above my tortured form
[01:44:05] I looked down on myself and the surging hard watching it all in perfect detail
[01:44:09] The sea of howling triumpment in humanity and those thousands of hands passing me off like a bloody sacrifice to their unholy gods
[01:44:19] For those brief moments pain was swept away and then so was I
[01:44:30] So now you know I haven't read this at a long time yeah
[01:44:33] Man
[01:44:42] The um
[01:44:44] This whole thing is
[01:44:47] What's weird is about this as you think about it take a step back like the proximity of everything that's happening
[01:44:52] The fact that the airfields of my all away the fact that you were
[01:44:56] Flying around that whatever
[01:44:58] Four thousand feet in complete safety two minutes later or 30 seconds later you're over the target two minutes later
[01:45:05] Your shop down this is all just and it's all happening in this compressed time and compressed space and
[01:45:13] And despite the fact that there's
[01:45:16] Tanks nearby there's troops nearby
[01:45:19] You're you end up completely by yourself
[01:45:22] And that thought cross my mind I made I think I say it's somewhere in the book like
[01:45:26] Is there not another American in this freaking city, you know? I mean, where is everybody but what I didn't realize is the chaos going out at the target
[01:45:34] With the ground con boy the other shoot downs
[01:45:36] Because all you know is your your fox hole right you don't you don't know the big picture and once I once I saw the big picture I realized yeah
[01:45:45] Certainly had we got in the assets we asked for what it made a difference but they weren't there so we couldn't do anything
[01:45:50] So at this point
[01:45:52] You're like a ragdoff and they're just this mobs got you
[01:45:58] Did you have any indication
[01:46:01] At
[01:46:02] That you were gonna survive this or was it just just just who when when did they start to rip me apart right?
[01:46:07] I mean it's like what's next?
[01:46:09] You know we've already been through two or three cycles here where
[01:46:12] The end seemed imminent and and here we go again and then then it settles down when they throw me in this first location
[01:46:20] Where we stop but you know the threat of death was always there. I mean they're just all amped up
[01:46:25] Just you you've been there when when you're in the when you're in the fight you're adrenaline is so high and you're
[01:46:32] You know from their perspective on the bad guy, you know, I'm the guy that's causing all this problem
[01:46:37] Yeah, you're the bad guy that caused all the problems right every the you're the one guy that they've got to take it all out on exactly
[01:46:43] Um, so they eventually get you they take you and
[01:46:50] Put you in a closed space and some kind you can't really see what's going on because you know you've got the the
[01:46:57] Whatever your eyes were blindfolded the the continual choruses Ranger Ranger you die Somalia right
[01:47:05] Freaking nightmare
[01:47:07] um now once you get once you sort of you're you're into this closed space
[01:47:14] You kind of you know you say this in the book here those first few minutes of capture critical don't piss off your captors
[01:47:21] So you went into like the sear mode
[01:47:24] Instinctively right there at the crash site and you know it wasn't like
[01:47:29] You know, I made this conscious decision, you know the game is different now. It's just sort of
[01:47:33] It just happened natural you know it didn't became obvious the fight was over you know, I mean I got
[01:47:38] There's nothing I can do and now I'm in their hands so I got a river to what they taught me
[01:47:43] To survive a situation like this and most of it actually worked pretty well and surprising
[01:47:49] And I shouldn't say surprise
[01:47:50] How do you know you know it is surprised it's a little bit surprising because you hope it works
[01:47:56] But you know when you're in sear school it works
[01:47:58] Yeah, but we're here to do all the freaking crazed mob of Somalis
[01:48:03] I mean I'm surprised you know I'm surprised I even reading it you know I just
[01:48:11] I guess I keep referring back to the fact like you just knew you were gonna die because if I was in that situation
[01:48:15] I'd be like I'm 100% there's no amgain out of this yeah not against a
[01:48:21] 1000 crazed mob
[01:48:24] Like it's not you're not gonna get out of that. It's a freaking miracle
[01:48:29] So you get into this room they they're
[01:48:32] They're arguing about you they're yelling at each other like you can see there's some kind of
[01:48:40] It seems to start to take some kind of shape right it starts to take some kind of shape like
[01:48:45] They have another purpose for you
[01:48:48] They end up
[01:48:49] I mean I guess once you get away from the mob you must have felt a little bit better things did settle down
[01:48:55] And one thing I didn't know is that I was actually taken by a rival clan and Mark Bowden is the one who did
[01:49:01] Discovers this when he writes black-hawked out
[01:49:04] Of course this is according to Somalis
[01:49:05] I don't know if it's true or not but it makes sense if you think about the dynamics of those few
[01:49:09] few hours
[01:49:11] Because I did get moved a couple times and the characters did change so it's it's very likely I was in fact
[01:49:18] You know basically stole and by a rival plan and then the go-shaded to get back to the hobby of getter clan
[01:49:26] If it's not bizarre enough
[01:49:29] You get chained up
[01:49:31] But they change you in a such a way that you could you could let get your arm out so they weren't great at I guess
[01:49:38] Chaining people I don't think they were great at very much actually
[01:49:41] Fortunately no, yeah, I was able to squeeze out of it
[01:49:44] Um
[01:49:46] Another guy comes in eventually again. I'll look by the book. I'm fast-forwarding through a bunch of detail that's
[01:49:53] That's fascinating the read and it gives a lot of the granular detail of what's going on eventually
[01:49:58] You get a guy that comes in that's little less aggressive not as angry and offers you some water
[01:50:03] Um, so you start to see a little bit of you know maybe there's a little bit of light a little bit of light at the end of the tunnel
[01:50:15] This happened suddenly my captors outside were engaged in a battle. I could hear rounds being fired from the other side of the wall and yelling and chaos to
[01:50:22] Groot to a fevered pitch bright flashes from their spinning gun barrels pierced through the ventilation holes above
[01:50:27] My head and lit up myself like a lightning storm. I could feel the mighty the might of the US army approaching my door
[01:50:33] It would all be over in a few minutes and for the very first time that day
[01:50:36] I prayed I prayed to God to spare me and spare the lives of my comrades
[01:50:40] I prayed for just a bit more of the mercy that it kept me alive until this moment
[01:50:44] I'd been a casual cat Catholic before
[01:50:47] But I would become a faithful servant forever if I could just have three more minutes of protection until I was on board a night stalker
[01:50:53] Heelow and we were all flying off to freedom
[01:50:59] Unfortunately, that was just another
[01:51:02] Another firefight call on our guard. I think it was the ground convoy actually passing by close to me
[01:51:08] That's the only thing I can come because I could hear what I think were 40 millimeter rounds actually flying through the air and then
[01:51:14] You know pretty sizable explosions when those things hit and and it you know is marching toward me and then it gets a fever pitch and then
[01:51:21] It starts to fade and and that's all that's the only thing I can come up with is that I was actually fairly close to where the ground
[01:51:28] Convoy or a ground convoy I think you know because there was a couple of different efforts involved there and in getting to the target side on the ground
[01:51:36] And just kind of demoralizing when it just starts to fade away in the distance and you've been shot where you got shot in the arm
[01:51:42] I did yep, it was super super
[01:51:45] Professional like all the shooting is gone on. I mean even when they were shooting up your bird that was on the ground like it's a miracle
[01:51:52] You can get shot just by stray rounds
[01:51:55] And that was a deflection actually it didn't hit me directly. We went off the floor and ended up in my left arm
[01:52:02] Finally you meet this guy this guy comes in his name and he says my name is Mohammed gate
[01:52:09] He offers you a smoke now what's the deal with Mohammed gate?
[01:52:12] So he was probably the most sophisticated character that I dealt with he was basically trying to
[01:52:20] convince me that you know the samallies were the victims and all this and then general indeed was a righteous man and
[01:52:27] I think I put in there that he was telling me bedtime stories, you know
[01:52:31] He was because if you go back in history you could see how that version of the story
[01:52:36] From some perspectives could be believable. I mean
[01:52:39] Where things go south on a deed is when he starts stealing all the food that's there from the relief organization
[01:52:44] You know that's where he kind of loses my vote but before then you know leading the the overthrow of
[01:52:51] What was described as a pretty
[01:52:53] difficult prior government he's a hero and
[01:52:57] This is what Mohammed gate is telling you about he's telling you what the history of samallia and now he's a great man
[01:53:02] He led his people to freedom and we really got this all wrong. You know we're chasing the wrong guy right so
[01:53:07] And again having gone to survival school and understanding that this is something you might encounter and probably will certainly in a long-term situation
[01:53:18] I had my guard up you know, but the reality is and and I have no expert on captivity. There's people that spent
[01:53:26] Longer and captivity and I did
[01:53:28] But over time if you repeat a story often enough
[01:53:32] It starts to creep into your your mind and and I think it gains credibility over time through repetition
[01:53:39] So it's a long practice
[01:53:42] Technique and I wasn't there long enough for them to work
[01:53:45] But I'm sure they would have tried to do that because for them getting an American to say
[01:53:51] Hey, this guy is really you know, we shouldn't be chasing him. This is this is all wrong
[01:53:55] That's like gold. Yeah, that's worth a fleet of
[01:53:59] Jet fighters to them, you know, so that's what they're after
[01:54:05] Fast forward a little bit you end up you know you you you it gets dark you go to sleep you wake up
[01:54:11] And and you start going into your your first kind of day
[01:54:16] of captivity here
[01:54:19] He says how are you Ranger?
[01:54:23] I was not a Ranger, but I didn't bother correcting my form the recognizable symbol for okay with my fingers
[01:54:27] Your friends he began and then pause like a surge in emerging from the operating room with bad news
[01:54:33] You are the only one
[01:54:36] I waited for the rest of it. I hope that he meant I was the only one captured
[01:54:40] Gate came up with a packet cigarettes and I've offered me one
[01:54:43] I heard the voice of one of my instructors from CIRSchool survival evasion resistors escape
[01:54:48] You don't have to be subservient to your captors, but you do not but you do have to be cordial
[01:54:53] politeness is a tactic not a surrender
[01:54:55] No, thank you. We're the first words of my day and and he goes on to say
[01:55:01] I'm sorry, but it's only you your friends are not living we thought maybe one alive under your helicopter at run away by night
[01:55:08] But that is not true
[01:55:14] You know he continued many Somali's very angry with the UN and Americans many many Somali's die in this fighting our women there the most angry
[01:55:22] They are also the most cruel
[01:55:26] Somali woman must take a revenge upon a person who kills her son or husband
[01:55:30] She must take something from the guilty person. There's no trial. No jury. This is justice in our world
[01:55:38] So again this guy's educate you on
[01:55:43] On what's happening
[01:55:45] And and I will say that I did feel that that was the case when the mob was
[01:55:50] Taking place at the women where the one screaming allowed us and kind of breaking through and
[01:55:56] You know taking a shot here and there and you know that's why I'm gonna sue when it's correct you say again fast-forwarding
[01:56:05] At this point a new character entered the drama he was proceeded by four body guards and as he swept into the room
[01:56:11] The other Somali's gate included retreated a bit and nearly bowed with respect he was middle aged war pencil thin mustache
[01:56:18] And the wide fringe of hair surrounding his bald head looked freshly cut his colorful short sleeve shirt
[01:56:26] Spotted pastel palm fronds and his base trousers were crisp and clean
[01:56:31] Here remind me of a Miami Beach tourist. He seemed well educated and his manned English was delivered in soft tones
[01:56:38] My name is Mr. Abdi is that right Abdi? Abdi. Abdi. My name is Mr. Abdi and yours
[01:56:43] It was clear that this man held some kind of higher position well above the tactical lever level
[01:56:47] It's time for me to give up one of the big four name ranks or service number and data birth
[01:56:52] Durant Michael J Durant is there anything you need Mr. Durant?
[01:56:55] I need a doctor. Yes, I can see that Abdi said the Somali surrounding him to be let seem to be less and very carefully
[01:57:02] Trying to understand his nearly whispered English and is there anything else?
[01:57:06] I need to be set free of course
[01:57:08] He nodded as if expecting me to say that very thing
[01:57:11] We will provide you with medical attention and I will make sure you are treated as well as possible
[01:57:19] Yeah, I don't know where he was in the food chain, but it's pretty high up and he
[01:57:25] You know the Somali's at this point
[01:57:27] I don't know maybe this might be a little early for them to reach this conclusion
[01:57:31] But but this didn't play well for them the things that they did with with with the bodies of
[01:57:37] The comrades from crash I too that made it into the media and just the perception that you know the US in the end
[01:57:47] Was really there to try to help them. I mean, you know put everything else aside put you know the specific of that battle to the side
[01:57:54] The mission was to help the freaking Somali people and in return
[01:57:58] They're killing us and dragon are remains through the streets. I mean that doesn't play well anywhere
[01:58:03] So I think he realizes this and indeed realizes this and they got to do some damage control
[01:58:10] So they're not gonna be perhaps as as hostile toward me as they might have otherwise because they don't want to be perceived
[01:58:18] for seen as seen as the
[01:58:21] The savages. I'll use that right you know that that in some cases they acted like I mean there's no question about it
[01:58:29] one of the
[01:58:31] One of the guest most critical points most painful points for you
[01:58:36] Was when they show up with a video camera and you kind of talk about in the book, you know
[01:58:42] your your knowledge and recollection of those type of situations occurring in Vietnam in the go for and I rack
[01:58:51] And you kind of know it's common that you're gonna get you're gonna get this
[01:58:55] propaganda opportunity for them
[01:58:57] I'm gonna go to the book here. There was a man with a video camera on a shoulder and two more with tripods batteries and flood bites
[01:59:06] Why you come to Somalia? Why you kill innocent?
[01:59:09] Will you answer these questions and?
[01:59:13] interrogating you in this methodology they go on and on
[01:59:17] Questions began again
[01:59:19] In those next few moments I would utter responses that would change the rest of my life
[01:59:24] Why you come to Somalia?
[01:59:26] I'm a soldier. I said in flat expression was tone. I do as I'm told
[01:59:30] And again, that's kind of like a standard-seer answer. Hey, I'm just doing what I'm told
[01:59:34] Why you kill innocent people? I glance at my interrogator then back at the camera so that at least someone out there could see I was responding
[01:59:42] Against my will
[01:59:44] innocent people being killed is not good. I said
[01:59:48] Someone snapped his fingers. They turned the camera off and shut down the lights. It was over
[01:59:52] They had what they wanted within minutes the room had been cleared of everyone and I slumped down on my back
[01:59:59] I laid their reviewing every second of it in my mind and decided that I'd done all right
[02:00:04] The only thing that video accomplished was to tell the world that the Somalia's had an American in captivity
[02:00:10] I didn't second guess my decision to answer and I believe then as I do now it was the right thing to do
[02:00:16] And that I remember watching this stuff when I hit the air. It's kind of freaking crazy that I'm sitting here talking to you right now actually
[02:00:26] You know this is a nineteen ninety-three like I said I was coming back. I was back from my first sealed deployment and and
[02:00:32] Was thinking to myself you know God look at what's going on
[02:00:38] Was that was that you know that they're trying to get you to say the best they could get out of you is innocent being killed
[02:00:45] People being killed is not good
[02:00:47] That's like the best propaganda they could get out of you so I don't think they knew what I said
[02:00:51] I don't think they completely understood it. I think they just thought okay. We got it you know
[02:00:56] Because if you analyze it, I mean it's it's worth it. Yeah, and again the the credit there goes to the to the training
[02:01:04] You know without the training. I don't know what I do
[02:01:07] Probably reverse or the big four but you know it was proven in Vietnam
[02:01:13] That doesn't work and you gotta have some guidelines to go by beyond that and
[02:01:20] You know I was fortunate that I had gone to the training and new new kind of how to handle it
[02:01:25] Yeah, you have a great sentence. I won't read it, but as they started interrogating you you started using you know
[02:01:31] In like big words, you know multi-salebic words that they just could not understand it's it's a freaking classic sentence
[02:01:38] That's a kind of thing that you learn in you know in sear school. Hey talk to them and a language that's elevated above what they actually know
[02:01:45] so
[02:01:48] You end up with that again. It's kind of crazy that I was sitting there watching that as a young the seal
[02:01:53] You know clenched in my fist saying how can we how can I help? How will what could I do?
[02:01:57] It had that effect on a lot of people and I think part of it is it came out of nowhere
[02:02:01] I mean nobody thought anything like that was gonna happen this morning
[02:02:04] I mean this was a relief operation and all of a sudden we're going from handing out bags of food to this
[02:02:10] You know, I mean it just it was it had a shock and a lot of fact. I think and
[02:02:14] You know and and everyone's reaction was pretty much the same you know we need to go in there and just
[02:02:21] Devastate this place because this is just you can't treat Americans this way and and motivated a lot of people
[02:02:27] Um you end up in another you get transported again. They take you to another spot
[02:02:35] You said I looked around on my new digs now flooded the early daylight because this is it now several days in
[02:02:40] The door was closed to fix the cheap lock like the one in my previous cell one of the window shutters
[02:02:45] And open I could see another building not three feet away
[02:02:47] There were no birds chirping and I could hear more street traffic. I concluded we had moved to a more densely populated part of the city
[02:02:53] Now you got another guy that does in the scene now for Rimbee. I'm saying that right for Rimbee. What's the deal with this guy?
[02:03:00] So he's got a big goofy guy actually
[02:03:02] He was he was a sign the responsibility to make sure that I stayed alive basically that was his and that another clan didn't get me
[02:03:11] And he had a few handful of guards, you know, and they
[02:03:16] But he was kind of a goofy guy and initially he was very
[02:03:19] Aggressive I would say but over time he became much more personable to the point where I think he'd a really struggle to
[02:03:28] Fizzorders were to kill me. I really do you know on it again it goes back to just
[02:03:34] The stuff you learn as a kid, you know you treat others the way you want to be treated you
[02:03:38] You don't act like a jerk, you know that they're Muslim and when it was prior time I was respectful
[02:03:43] I didn't you know I let them do what they need to do and and the and that goes both ways, you know
[02:03:48] So it just it wasn't really a strategy necessarily as it was just
[02:03:53] Kind of common sense combined with some of the training that I got and you know why would you want to make this guy
[02:03:59] Do anything other than want to help you right? I mean there was a couple times that
[02:04:03] Things happened to me physically and and I needed some help getting cleaned up and and he did it
[02:04:09] I'm like man, I'm not sure how to do this for you, but I appreciate
[02:04:13] You said the earned is combat
[02:04:15] Yes, yeah, that sounds like a rough duty even I didn't want that. Yeah, it's for sure. What about doctor?
[02:04:21] How do you say his name doctor caday?
[02:04:23] Cadaya cadaya cadaya cadaya cadaya and what was it what was going on with doctor cadaya?
[02:04:29] He had actually gone to school in the US you went to Med School in California I believe a USC
[02:04:33] I think if I remember correctly and so he spoke decent English
[02:04:39] But he had nothing left, you know this was a big fight people don't often
[02:04:43] Realize how big the fight was from the Somali's perspective
[02:04:46] I've heard numbers as high as 2,000 wooden on their side and in seven or 800 killed
[02:04:52] So you know he's he's got limited resources to begin with and he's now dealt with all that and he doesn't come to see me for a couple of days
[02:04:59] And I you know I describe it as a tackle box he had a he had a box of
[02:05:04] Beta-dine gauze and a couple of instruments and that was in some aspirin. That's all he had
[02:05:09] But he tried
[02:05:11] And he's blunted my leg and
[02:05:13] Unfortunately the fracture was so high
[02:05:16] I mean, it's way up high. It's probably like two thirds up the femur
[02:05:20] All he really accomplished was stabilizing my knee and my ankle so the only pivot point was the fracture
[02:05:26] So when they moved me
[02:05:29] That my leg is like this big thing that's and it's pivoting around the fracture site and I finally said man
[02:05:35] You got to get this off and I finally convinced them to get it off
[02:05:38] But you know he cleaned me up and he you know he did what he what he could and you never know
[02:05:44] I mean could have saved my leg because you know open compound femur fracture and a nasty crap all like that is
[02:05:51] The chance of infection is really high and I never got infected so
[02:05:54] kind of amazing
[02:05:57] The bring you some memories they start bringing you some water at this point you must be thinking like okay
[02:06:02] I have a decent chant they're trying to take care of me. They got the doctor trying to give me guidance
[02:06:07] um
[02:06:11] Here we get another character rolls in and again
[02:06:13] Get the book because you get to get the better introduction. I'm just kind of hitting the wave tops and these things
[02:06:18] General it needs minister of internal affairs
[02:06:22] He tells you your face has already been televised around the world
[02:06:27] He continued almost with pride everyone knows that you are a prisoner in Shalaw
[02:06:31] You will see your family again
[02:06:33] Perhaps you would like a radio yes, I not a graciously a radio would be fantastic
[02:06:38] So that your first recognition
[02:06:40] Did you start to get a feeling for the fact that
[02:06:43] Everybody knows what's going on here? Yeah at that point and at that point it becomes how long is this gonna last because with those injuries
[02:06:51] After the fact they the doctors told me they thought I probably had 30 days to live
[02:06:56] You know without proper care and
[02:06:59] So it's a time it's a battle against time at that point, but it's certainly
[02:07:02] Thought the much better than the first you know 24 hours for sure
[02:07:07] You got a section in here that I think is just good to read because it's good lessons learned for life
[02:07:12] You say it was my fourth day as a prisoner of war in Somalia
[02:07:15] I knew I couldn't deal with captivity in terms of years
[02:07:19] But I had to mentally prepare myself for a long haul
[02:07:23] So as I started crumbling
[02:07:25] Stared at this crumbling sea ceiling of hotel nowhere and listened to the furious buzzing of the black flies
[02:07:31] I told myself that I would survive just one day at a time
[02:07:34] I would not imagine my captivity as years of tortured waiting
[02:07:38] Because if I really believe that I would probably die my mind could not accept being in prison for that long and those kind of things
[02:07:44] Those kind of thoughts would break me like any major challenge in life
[02:07:48] You have to take it in bits and pieces you don't try and tackle the whole thing at once
[02:07:53] I remembered how I reacted at the crash site when it was overrun and I had focused on surviving for just five minutes and then making it through the next five
[02:08:03] And so as day four dawned and I ventured further into the black tunnel of captivity
[02:08:08] I needed a limited point of reference or that darkness would just overwhelm me
[02:08:13] You just need to make it to tomorrow. I told myself if you wake up tomorrow
[02:08:17] You'll figure out how to survive another tomorrow
[02:08:20] Today you've got to figure out how to survive today
[02:08:24] So that's the that's the mode you're going into
[02:08:27] Good lesson for
[02:08:29] Freaking life in general. It's any challenge any big challenge. It's just one at a time. That's all you can do
[02:08:37] Eventually
[02:08:38] Obdi shows up in again and you're gonna get a visit from the red cross
[02:08:44] Red cross
[02:08:51] And you get this radio that's working
[02:08:57] Once you're on the radio you start hearing the reports and that was that had to be
[02:09:03] That had to be crazy. It is it is because I mean like they're playing music
[02:09:08] There's your quests for me because they found out that I had the radio
[02:09:11] So now now guys in test force range are requesting songs and and data then requested
[02:09:17] Whoops there it is or something
[02:09:25] You have
[02:09:27] Yeah, they're they're given a report before you get to the radio request
[02:09:30] They're given reports of what's going on. This is sort of your first indication
[02:09:33] You know you hear this report on BBC on Sunday October third round 4 p.m
[02:09:38] Quick US quick reaction forced to 10 24 suspected I did militant members and a certain sees her operation
[02:09:45] We believe several key militant members were among them
[02:09:50] Three of the 24 detainees data wounds reserve received during the operation one detainees being treated
[02:09:57] Key militant members we have detained were not among those who died wounded
[02:10:01] As the and then he goes into this as the operation was in progress
[02:10:07] Two US Army black-hawkella copies were lost due to ground fire during this time the troops evacuating the detainees came
[02:10:13] Under fine return fire about 70 ranges surrounded one down helicopter dust they formed perimeter
[02:10:21] To protect the wounded members of the crew while awaiting a medical evacuation and they two came under fire
[02:10:26] The task force was organized consisting of two US Army infantry companies 24 Malaysian armored personnel carriers
[02:10:34] Four Pakistani tanks two Pakistani armored personnel carriers a range of platoon in a company of armored humvies
[02:10:40] The task force reached the down aircraft at two 30 Monday morning and evacuated the soldiers
[02:10:47] I realized that I'd been in a furious battle that had been the furious battle I'd witnessed on my first night of captivity
[02:10:53] Yes
[02:10:54] No matter what injuries cliff and dawn had sustained I was certain now they'd been rescued
[02:11:00] And then the report continues regrettably there were number of US casualties in these engagements as the Pentagon has already released five US soldiers have died
[02:11:09] In addition to number of been wounded
[02:11:12] It wasn't good news the major tone was cautious and I knew that his announcement of casualty figures was preliminary
[02:11:18] I had no doubt that the numbers of our dead wounded would increase so
[02:11:28] You're hearing all these reports of of what it unfolded and you're like you said earlier you're an eternal optimist
[02:11:36] And to you you hear these reports and you're painting them in the best possible light right
[02:11:43] Yeah
[02:11:45] What about the black off flying overhead with plain acdc?
[02:11:50] What was that all about?
[02:11:52] Well
[02:11:54] It is somewhat sensitive there was
[02:11:57] There was a method to the madness it wasn't just to make me feel better
[02:12:01] And I guess we'll leave it at that and then then Dan
[02:12:05] Dan Jalato's real good friend of mine just got inducted in the army of each to all the fame actually just recently
[02:12:10] Was flying not flying but recorded his voice and he's calling to be from the sky Mike we won't leave you behind
[02:12:17] I and I just got to chill up my spine. I mean I still do just thinking about that moment because you know
[02:12:24] You're not gonna be left behind. I mean you know that you know the unit you're with
[02:12:28] There's the unit that's gonna get called upon to rescue people and situations like me and you know what they can do
[02:12:33] So it's just a matter of time but to hear your friend calling you from the sky just
[02:12:39] Incredibly powerful
[02:12:40] um
[02:12:42] You end up getting that red cross visit
[02:12:46] This is like a how do you describe incredible angel of mercy is what you see this woman as
[02:12:52] Suzanne Hofstetter
[02:12:54] From the red cross and she's there to kind of check on you
[02:12:58] You your first look she can tell looking your face she's like all your faces all I'm getting out she's like you're not getting released today
[02:13:03] She won't give you that news upfront but she was there to check on you
[02:13:07] um
[02:13:10] And she actually gives you a chance to write a letter to your family
[02:13:16] You say this I decided to keep it personally and mostly informative so that at least my family would worry less
[02:13:24] This is what I wrote dear Lori and Joey
[02:13:26] I know you must be worried about how I am doing they are treating me well the Somali doctor comes every day and cleans my injuries
[02:13:33] The people are taking care of me are also treating me well they get whatever kind of food
[02:13:38] I asked for but there's no pizza available unfortunately
[02:13:41] I want nothing more in the world than to be with you and Joey again. I see his face and I pray this will all turn out okay
[02:13:48] Please tell everyone else in the family that I hear their prayers and things will work out okay
[02:13:53] Nothing else matters more to me than to see my family again. I think I will I really do
[02:14:00] You stay positive and be strong and give Joey more hugs and kisses for his dad that misses him so
[02:14:08] I broke my leg compound fracture right femur and injured my back in the crash
[02:14:13] I think my nose is broken but it does not hurt
[02:14:16] I have a superficial gunshot wound in my left arm the leg and back are the only real problems
[02:14:21] But as I said the medical care has been very good. I hope to see you soon and I pray for the others who are missing Ray
[02:14:27] Bill Tommy and anyone else I love you
[02:14:32] I signed with my full signature Michael Durant a particular scribble that would assure anyone reading the letter that I had in fact written it
[02:14:39] When I was done I was in tears to think that this document would soon be in the hands of my family was just overwhelming
[02:14:50] And what's interesting is that uh
[02:14:52] You know people like everyone got to see this letter the whole world right and including the intel people that were looking for the
[02:15:00] Looking for the coded
[02:15:02] Information that you had in there
[02:15:04] Trying to figure out what you meant by a pizza because your favorite food was actually spaghetti
[02:15:09] And there was this spaghetti factory in Mogadishu
[02:15:13] So yeah, they went down a lot of rabbit holes. They took down every dominoes in the city
[02:15:17] Oh
[02:15:20] Those are some motivated friends man
[02:15:23] Um and then you add so Suzanne the rod Red Cross girl ends up going back to
[02:15:31] Task force and debriefing them and
[02:15:34] She she gives them information of one of the information as you mentioned early was that you had a radio
[02:15:38] And so now now these guys everyone knows that you're actually listening to the radio and they start
[02:15:44] Freaking set send in songs to you and whatnot. Yeah, just uh
[02:15:49] Again, you can't make this stuff. Yeah, it's crazy to even think about
[02:15:53] You know you get thunder struck
[02:15:57] You end up with Willie Nelson and meet low from these guys are just said you know they're dedicated to you
[02:16:05] They play rooster by Allison change which again. I was when I was on my first deployment overseas
[02:16:11] You know that Allison change album was so big and that song was obviously so big
[02:16:17] Anybody in the military and here you are freaking actually living out the rooster's story oh yourself
[02:16:24] They sent me a signed copy of the CD and note after the fact by no way. Yeah. Oh, that's epic
[02:16:31] Um
[02:16:37] My seventh day as prisoner of war I found religion
[02:16:40] It's all often been said that there are no atheist and foxholes meaning that even a non-believer will begin to pray when faced with his own mortality
[02:16:48] But I never been given but I'd never been a Catholic of convenience who only prayed when times were tough
[02:16:53] Admittedly as a boy at a tenatured to regularly with my family while it was an adult and full-time army helicopter pilot
[02:16:59] I'd allow that tradition to lapse yet my absence from the fuse hadn't broken my bond with the Lord at times
[02:17:04] I would's off for my Sunday prayers from the cockpit or say a silent grace over an mRE between missions or
[02:17:10] Ask a chaplain for a quick blessing as I ran to my healo
[02:17:14] It didn't require the threat of death for me to recall the sacraments
[02:17:18] So when I say I found religion I meant it literally so in this red box
[02:17:23] Cron you got enough getting a box from the red cross. They got a razor and they got tooth brush and toothpaste and a writing tablet and pens
[02:17:32] They a fresh roll a toilet paper
[02:17:34] Which for those people that haven't been in the field or experience life without toilet paper. This is a big deal
[02:17:43] Some playing cards and then you say the very last item was a US army Bible about the size of a small paper back
[02:17:50] It's cover and binding in desert camouflage colors it was then that I realized some of these items have come directly from task force Ranger
[02:17:59] Of course then you do the same thing that they did which you start thinking there's got to be some kind of a weapon here some kind of a radio
[02:18:04] What I'm gonna this is how I'm gonna get out where's the file so I can file through some bars
[02:18:11] Then you start taking notes inside you start taking notes inside the you know the blank spaces inside the Bible you still have that I do
[02:18:18] I should have brought it
[02:18:21] That's a comeback
[02:18:24] And again we talk about how much of this story is crazy this part
[02:18:30] My wife spoke to me at dawn
[02:18:32] I had woken up and turned on the radio hoping to hear some more encouraging news and maybe some rock and roll to start the day off right my pains for my leg and back
[02:18:40] Which didn't seem to keep me awake at night gathered force the minute I opened my eyes
[02:18:44] I lay there with my eyes closed the radio tight to my ear hardly taking in the voice of AFN's female DJ until she started talking about me
[02:18:55] On Friday the Red Cross delivered a letter to Rans wife in the United States
[02:18:58] She chose to answer him on camera on CNN and hopes that her husband would hear her reply my eyes snapped open
[02:19:04] And I blinked hard thinking I might still be asleep and dreaming, but no it was low-res vores
[02:19:08] Her lights southern accent clear as a bell and I listened and as I listened the emotions flowed through my veins and
[02:19:15] Futtered in my chest
[02:19:16] Then she said I'm making the statement and hopes that it will reach my husband
[02:19:19] I want them to know that Joey and I are doing well
[02:19:22] I received your letter from the Red Cross mic
[02:19:24] I was very happy to hear that you are okay and that you are being treated well
[02:19:28] Clay and the rest of your family are taking great care of us everyone is praying for you
[02:19:32] I know you can hear my prayers and the prayers of your brothers
[02:19:36] I should take a breath my own breathing was quick and shallow my years burning as I listened with every poor
[02:19:42] Everything with a new house is moving along fine. We'll be living in our dream home soon
[02:19:46] I hope they're taking care of you and feeding you right. I'll have a big pizza waiting for you soon
[02:19:51] Joey is waiting for you to get back before he starts walking
[02:19:54] You want this father to see his first steps take care of yourself. Don't worry about us
[02:19:58] We'll be fine and remember babe as you've always told me NSDQ night stalkers don't quit
[02:20:04] Take care of yourself. I love you very much with all my heart
[02:20:10] The DJ cut back when Lori was done but compared to my wife's voice her drone sounded cold and lifeless
[02:20:21] Yeah, that's
[02:20:26] Untie gone precedent
[02:20:28] Yeah, and all in 11 days you know, that's the roller coaster of it
[02:20:33] That was really why I decided right that book because blackrock down doesn't get into any of this
[02:20:38] You know the blackrock down story ends basically when the battle ends and and this book really picks up at that point and keeps going so
[02:20:47] That was that was sort of the catalyst because it's just bizarre and as you've implied
[02:20:51] I mean there are a lot of great lessons in there and you know some I learned after the fact some I
[02:20:55] So my applied but there's there's a ton in there
[02:21:00] You start getting word that the former American ambassador to Somalia Robert Oakley had showed up to sort of start moving this thing forward
[02:21:12] Oakley this is this is good to read Oakley made his position very clear there would be no deals
[02:21:18] There would be no exchange of prisoners either a deed would release me immediately and unconditionally or rescue a
[02:21:25] Temp would be made he frame the rest of his message as speculation rather than a threat
[02:21:29] I imagine that such a raid will come soon or rather than later he said and with massive US forces gathering here each day
[02:21:36] Fighter aircraft and tanks and so forth it will certainly be a tragedy
[02:21:40] A large portion of your city will no doubt be destroyed and perhaps mr. Durant along with it
[02:21:45] But the US is not going to sit idly by and let the clock tick any longer
[02:21:49] We need about a thousand Robert Oakley's the guy was I mean he's legit
[02:21:57] I met him I could tell you the way they reacted as soon as he came back on the scene
[02:22:01] He just changed the whole dynamic they trusted him and he was they called him a shoot straighter
[02:22:09] And that's you know this is the type of threat that
[02:22:13] They understood right they believed they believed that he would back it up and
[02:22:18] They worked
[02:22:19] Fast forward a little bit
[02:22:23] Mr. Minister Abdi I'm saying that wrong or no, I'm odd. I'm odd. I'm sorry
[02:22:30] He comes in I have some good news for you mr. Durant he said I'm all ears mr. Minister
[02:22:35] I said he smiled slightly at that but actually I was all nerve endings
[02:22:39] I could feel them twitching under my skin
[02:22:41] He elders the Somali national alliance have convened he folded his hands behind his back
[02:22:46] They have made a decision. I did not say anything. I just watched him waiting you will go home tomorrow Mr. Durant
[02:22:53] unconditionally
[02:23:01] Next day
[02:23:02] October 14th today is the day
[02:23:05] That was the entry I wrote my Bible that morning so
[02:23:09] That's it you find out that you're going home
[02:23:12] It's
[02:23:16] It's a little bit anti climactic because it's almost surprised
[02:23:21] It surprised the guards when they when they found you
[02:23:25] Yeah at the US cop. Yeah the US cop no one knew I was going
[02:23:29] They just sort of showed up is like a Fed X delivery or something
[02:23:33] Yeah, by the way, I fell out of the back of the truck when they first took off
[02:23:37] Yeah, it's a little bit of the keystone cops here. Okay. But yeah, you know you talk about that
[02:23:44] They vote you to van as they the you were too big to fit in the van and close the doors
[02:23:49] So they just leave the doors open and then they start pulling away and you start flying up the back and they grab hold of you as you're falling
[02:23:55] I mean, yeah, like you said it's keystone cops
[02:23:58] Eventually you show up there at a task force ranger or at the compound and this this jack
[02:24:06] This jag is looking at you and he looked stood there looked at me for a moment and shocked and then yelled holy mother of God
[02:24:13] It's Mike Doront medic
[02:24:15] Then all hell broke loose. There's an army field hospital right there at the UN compound
[02:24:20] Medics and nurses and doctors charge across the tarmac as you and soldiers pulled me out of the van a gurney appeared and they set me on the litter
[02:24:26] As faces
[02:24:28] Crowd it around me everyone shouting a barking orders at once people were yelling for instruments and medical equipment
[02:24:33] And it was like a scene out of ER as they rushed me toward the large green tents of the hospital
[02:24:38] I looked around but for him be was no one in sight
[02:24:41] He'd faded away into the crowd and I left his world much in the way I'd come into it carried a loft and engulfed the by a mob
[02:24:52] Then the doctors the nurses
[02:24:56] They go to work
[02:24:58] You know you talked earlier about finding out this is when you find out about found out about cliff and dawn event
[02:25:08] Obviously just freaking
[02:25:12] Horrible then and you're finding out about everyone else. I mean
[02:25:16] um
[02:25:24] Just to kind of close out the book here and again. We've skimmed the wave tops of this and it's so many good
[02:25:30] Incredible pointy points in it you say this just to just to kind of finish it out
[02:25:36] There was a C141 waiting to take me to Germany
[02:25:38] But between the landing pad and the jet all 400 men of task force rangered come out to form two long rows
[02:25:46] A corridor of sunburn faces and desert uniforms someone handed me a borrowed maroon beret
[02:25:53] And Dan Jolada and Stan Wood Mark Bergamo
[02:25:56] I'm saying that Bergamo Bergamo and tray Williams lifted my litter and we walked toward the ramp of the waiting transport
[02:26:03] Every man in the task force was holding some kind of a cup every cup had a shot of whiskey in it
[02:26:09] The men spoke to me and murmurs as I passed they wish me well and offered me thumbs up when we reached the cargo ramp of the jet
[02:26:17] My friends held me there so I could look out over this honor guard of my brothers this company of heroes
[02:26:23] General Garrison stepped up onto the ramp he handed me a shot glass of whiskey
[02:26:28] While he raised his own and all the men raised theirs to the ice blue African sky
[02:26:35] To our fallen comrades his voice echoed
[02:26:39] We shall never forget them
[02:26:41] To our fallen comrades 400 said in unison
[02:26:45] We downed our shots
[02:26:47] As from a speaker somewhere came a recording of God bless America when the men joined into singing it their voices were like thunder and I could feel the earth tremble
[02:26:58] They carried me on to the plane at last I was really going home soon. I would inhale the sweet sense of America
[02:27:04] Soon I would be holding my son yet so much had happened
[02:27:08] So many of the best pieces of my life had been torn away that I felt empty and hollow
[02:27:12] As the cargo ramp closed I looked at my hands the only things I had left without coveted night stalker beret
[02:27:21] And the Bible and
[02:27:24] Something I'd always taken for granted before
[02:27:29] My freedom
[02:27:31] So
[02:27:39] You you going to some of this in the book as well
[02:27:43] What happens after that?
[02:27:45] You know there's there's that's a whole another there's a whole another dynamic that takes place
[02:27:49] You know you're getting back to America you got to get surgeries you're getting I mean you had to be one of the most popular human beings in the world at that point
[02:27:57] Certainly amongst military personnel and government people and you know they
[02:28:02] Some of them want to get their picture taken with you so they can post
[02:28:05] Or whatever right about it or have it in the newspaper or whatever you do back in the 90s
[02:28:11] I guess you don't post it stone tablets
[02:28:14] Yeah
[02:28:17] You enter into you know starting to get surgeries. I mean your femur must have been all jacked up at this point
[02:28:22] Yeah, so it it actually the muscle shrink so it had a seven centimeter overlap from the shrinkage
[02:28:28] So they had to put me in traction
[02:28:30] Which they did in Germany and I actually flew from Germany to the US
[02:28:33] Interaction and they didn't set the femur till I got back to four-cample so it had been
[02:28:38] When it was all said and done close to a month before they actually set it
[02:28:42] And
[02:28:43] It's interesting that your bones get really sticky if they've been broken like that for a while so
[02:28:48] They it actually doesn't create a significant problem. I mean you can wait that long to set it
[02:28:54] I was that was shocked
[02:28:55] But you know terms of recovery on that it's like nothing ever happened to them. I mean it's
[02:29:01] You know any they kind of messed up sometimes it don't get the angle right or you know
[02:29:04] It's rotated slightly but I guess my doctor had a pro tractor or something
[02:29:11] Lineed it up and then you're goal at that point came became to get back in the seat get back and become
[02:29:17] Become a fully qualified pilot again for for the night stockers. How long did that take?
[02:29:24] It took a little over a year because you know the femurod stayed in for a full year and then they had to take it out
[02:29:32] And then I had to prove after that that I should be able to get back in the car
[02:29:35] But in the nice thing was
[02:29:37] Things had started to change about that time frame where where the military recognized the investment
[02:29:42] They have in soldiers sailors and Marines and
[02:29:45] And unlike previous generations where I would have been just a you know thanks for your service and and set home
[02:29:51] You know that's why you have it was the beginning of this thought process where
[02:29:57] Limmer no limb you want to stay in will find a way to make it happen and and I was sort of
[02:30:02] It was happening right in real time as so I got a lot of help and support in trying to stay in and get back on flight status and and you
[02:30:11] Uh, Ren the Marine Corps marathon had you run it before?
[02:30:15] I did I run it all thing for you. I've only done two I did one before one after one after and I ran faster after
[02:30:23] So that was that's because they're gonna take it away my flight pay so I had to I had to get moving
[02:30:28] But that was the you know my part of the battle is is
[02:30:33] Convincing the army he looked I just ran 26 miles faster and I could before this all happened
[02:30:37] Yeah, I should be a lot of fly and I got a waiver and I got back in the park and and did you like take a
[02:30:45] What was your rank or what were you doing what did you take like a cartoon and go?
[02:30:50] There what I was like six of us that went yeah, we
[02:30:54] We all
[02:30:56] kind of did it in honor of
[02:30:58] You know the guys that couldn't be there with us because Cliff Cliff wall cut had run at the first time
[02:31:03] I don't think Donovan ran it but anyway, we had all you know we weren't like elite runners or anything but we did
[02:31:09] Recess together, so we kind of did it for them
[02:31:15] So you end up just going back into full flight status at the 160th well, there was kind of a
[02:31:22] Pan-shaked on that I really didn't need to be operational again when you know I'd back they never did anything to it
[02:31:27] It's still deformed right so you know I can't I can't spend three hours in seat God it but the leadership
[02:31:35] Recognized that it you know it's sort of a moral victory for all of us if I got back on flight status and and so I I basically became a staff officer
[02:31:42] I still flew but not operational got it yeah
[02:31:47] when
[02:31:48] We when we fast forward a little bit
[02:31:51] 1999 the book Black Hawk down comes out like how does that impact your your life your world or was that
[02:31:59] Was the was the biggest let's say
[02:32:03] Flip on the publicity radar when you got home for me the biggest blip was when I got home
[02:32:09] When we found out that Black Hawk down was being because it first came out as a series of articles in the Philadelphia and quiet
[02:32:15] That's that was the original
[02:32:17] Documentation that led to the book and you know the paper was okay because everybody is out
[02:32:23] Okay, it's just the newspaper is gonna limit a distribution. It's not gonna get that much attention
[02:32:27] But when it started to turn into a book scared to crap out of all of us actually because you know
[02:32:32] You don't know what they're gonna do with it. They could just turn into a ridiculously stupid story or
[02:32:36] Something highly critical or inaccurate or whatever but in the end it turns out okay so you know we were all
[02:32:43] Now the grat I know something the ground guys don't like it a lot
[02:32:47] You know I wasn't there on the ground. I can't speak to it. I don't know but
[02:32:52] But from an era perspective it's accurate enough. Yeah, it's so
[02:32:56] It's very difficult
[02:32:58] You know I got a friend of mine that was in sag and Vietnam
[02:33:03] His name is John Strecher Meyer and he has his own podcast that he does now called the sag cast and he just
[02:33:09] Just has guys from sag on from Vietnam and
[02:33:14] Those guys like two of those guys that were on the same mission will tell different different
[02:33:20] Different circumstances of how they saw go down and they're not neither one of them's wrong
[02:33:24] Right just saw it from a different perspective and or remembered a different way
[02:33:28] So I can't even imagine trying to piece together the
[02:33:34] Perspective of however many guys were on the ground in the battle that day and have it
[02:33:38] Have every person be satisfied with what was said that's a very tall task and and you know what?
[02:33:45] I'm not saying that's wrong. I'm saying
[02:33:47] You know a reporter could be on the ground with you and me entering a building and
[02:33:54] Could report what exactly what he saw and you might think it was the worst story ever
[02:33:59] And I might think it's great and we would both be right because you know he could miss
[02:34:04] So that's a very big challenge, but yeah, I mean obviously all of us in the special operations community read that book
[02:34:12] You know when it came out and try to get the lessons earned and and definitely thought that it was
[02:34:17] You know, I mean I thought it was a great book and
[02:34:21] But again, I wasn't there. No, I think you did a good job
[02:34:24] He put a lot into it. He did a lot of research and I think his intent was to tell it
[02:34:28] That's truthfully as he could and I think he accomplished that and then and then the movie comes out
[02:34:33] in
[02:34:35] 2001 December of 2001 the movie comes out so
[02:34:40] I mean I think as far as combat movie goes combat movies go again
[02:34:44] Is there some Hollywood stuff in there? They're sure is hell
[02:34:47] Yeah, there's some stuff that's like not even close to accurate. Yes, there is but
[02:34:52] That does a good job of conveying a lot of the chaos a lot of the mayhem a lot of the pressure that guys are under
[02:34:58] So I don't know what you thought of that movie, but I think the same thing and in humanized some people
[02:35:03] You know, it didn't portray everybody as the Avengers, you know that are invincible and you know
[02:35:08] They're humans they make mistakes. They they they're there some that are just rock stars and others that
[02:35:14] You know whether it's an experience or or what you know
[02:35:17] Maybe aren't at that level of performance, but that's just reality so I think generally speaking
[02:35:22] Yeah, I think most people are fairly happy with it
[02:35:24] And it's it's the reason I wrote by book right I was about to ask you that so your book come came out in 2003 right so you must
[02:35:31] To start writing that after those those Belkers was it to move your the book that made you
[02:35:35] It was the movie. I mean, I want to see the movie and I I didn't go right away
[02:35:38] Because I wasn't sure and what's this gonna feel like you know, I'm gonna watch my friends
[02:35:42] Essentially die on screen
[02:35:45] It actually seemed
[02:35:46] Fake to me because the rafters so it didn't have the emotional impact that I thought it might have
[02:35:51] For me and once it was over though because like I said that you know black-hawk down
[02:35:57] The credits are rolling and I'm just basically waking up on my first day in captivity
[02:36:03] So I thought there's never been a better time to kind of push this out than now and you know
[02:36:11] Writing books in our world is a bit controversial to begin with right and and that's why I hadn't done it yet
[02:36:17] But I thought look there's been a book. There's been a movie actually there are multiple books and it's all out there and
[02:36:23] You know command you're the one to let it all out not me
[02:36:26] So I'm just gonna tell my part of this story because if I don't tell it it's never gonna get told
[02:36:31] It's I'm the only one that knows it and
[02:36:34] So I felt good about doing it at that point in time, you know from an operational
[02:36:39] Sensitivity perspective that you know stuff is all 10 years old. There's nothing there
[02:36:42] But it's still you know it raises eyebrows here in there when you write a book and I understand
[02:36:47] But I still feel to this day that it was the right thing to do
[02:36:51] Yeah, it's impossible to write a book and trust me. I've written millennia
[02:36:55] It's impossible right a book and and say well, you know
[02:36:59] I'm doing this
[02:37:01] I'm humble and I'm doing this because you're right no matter what you're writing a book
[02:37:04] It's about you and so there's that there's that hypocrisy of doing that and I certainly like I had
[02:37:11] You know my gut in knots because
[02:37:15] Like you when I joined like you didn't talk about being in this hill teams for damn sure
[02:37:19] One of one of my admiral friends helped me out get through that and you know
[02:37:24] He said hey we're supposed to be quiet professionals
[02:37:27] But that doesn't mean silent professionals and the stories and lessons there need to be carried on and you're doing a good job of that
[02:37:34] And I was very thankful to hear that and I think that's accurate
[02:37:38] What year did you what year did you or what time because you retired in 2001 right correct and
[02:37:46] What month did you retire in 2001 February?
[02:37:49] So
[02:37:51] Okay, you know where I'm going with that so September 11th comes in your
[02:37:56] You're in the bench and that's all I felt I mean really
[02:38:00] But could could I have gone and flown to you know 18 hour combat infiltration and I've gannistered
[02:38:06] I couldn't have done I'd have been asking them to drop me off somewhere in the mountains halfway through
[02:38:10] You know because by back it just I can't sit that long not not in those seats so it was hard because I knew
[02:38:18] You know the things that have gone on in this way as just you know you personally experience in the last 20 years
[02:38:24] You can't even begin to describe it all. It's just unbelievable and
[02:38:29] I did feel like I was I missed the boat because it's you know
[02:38:33] It's our super bowl. I
[02:38:35] Don't think people who don't serve in military really understand why you want to go do that stuff, but
[02:38:41] It's it's it's you're super bowl. I mean this why it's you strive your whole career to get involved in that kind of stuff and
[02:38:49] It was tough, but I also knew there was a lot of very capable guys that could do a better night could so
[02:38:56] So once you retired you went in the corporate world for a bit
[02:38:59] I did I went to work on a brand new helicopter for the army the army was buying a command sheet and it was pretty cool
[02:39:06] I mean it's you know fast stealth the high tech
[02:39:11] But it was a train wreck
[02:39:14] You know we don't do very well with major acquisition
[02:39:16] I'm sorry it's it's it's
[02:39:18] When you think about you know
[02:39:20] 100 years ago we could do things with a slide rule or or whatever and today
[02:39:25] We have all this technology and we can't keep anything on track. It's somewhat mind-boggling, but
[02:39:30] That there's a whole list of reasons why that program was was in bad shape by the time I got there
[02:39:37] But it was a good exposure to getting involved in in a government program office and how things
[02:39:42] Work and most of them actually don't work
[02:39:46] You know and as a taxpayer pretty frustrating to see what was being spent and what we were again for it. It's it's horrible
[02:39:52] Yeah, and during that time you also wrote another book
[02:39:56] Called just called the night stalker's right which is like the more of a historical account of the night stalkers right
[02:40:02] It's just a select series of missions that were kind of from that same time frame and a little before and the whole idea there was to
[02:40:10] Sort of articulate that
[02:40:11] It's it's not just the same unit. It's the same guys. I mean there are people that have been there, you know
[02:40:17] 24 years and have been involved in all these real world ops and and
[02:40:21] And again, I don't think the average person can even get their head around that that that you know those
[02:40:27] Individuals contributed so much over such a long period of time. It's just unbelievable
[02:40:32] And it did fairly well didn't nearly as well as in the company heroes did but
[02:40:37] You know, I think it gave just some more insight into the DNA of this kind of unit, you know from an aviation perspective
[02:40:43] It's essentially a seal-ty. I mean, it's you know
[02:40:46] It's from a culture and commitment to mission and all that stuff
[02:40:50] The mission's different but the personalities we don't live wait nearly as much
[02:40:55] But we don't have we don't have toys any anywhere close to the biggest year toy. So it's expensive is your toys
[02:41:01] Yeah, we always joke about the fact that like our budget is
[02:41:05] So small compared to you know the aviation community because of freaking and a black-ock
[02:41:10] What was a black-ock cost?
[02:41:12] Well the special ops configured ones were probably in the 45 range
[02:41:15] Yeah, so and that's not a thousand so I had an awesome
[02:41:20] Huey pilot from Vietnam on and he was talking about you know those guys were just flying in the hot LZs like it wasn't like without a second thought
[02:41:28] They were rolling in there and
[02:41:31] He said something like well, you know you hear here. I was you know 18 years old and
[02:41:36] Flying in and I got a
[02:41:39] Whatever it was here got like a hundred thousand dollar aircraft. That's all mine
[02:41:43] And I said you know and we started talking I said is that why it's more cautious with the black-ocks
[02:41:50] Because there's so much more expensive
[02:41:51] He goes yeah, I guess they must be more careful those things must cost like $250,000
[02:41:56] I didn't I I knew it was more than that
[02:42:01] But I said I think it's quite a bit more than that sir
[02:42:03] He said oh really how much over a million I forget the conversation but it was funny, but yeah
[02:42:08] For I mean a normal I ended up looking it up a normal black-ock not even a special spec off
[02:42:12] Someone is like 20 million 24 million so yeah the prices went up a bit and and you actually
[02:42:20] Once you got done, you know working with that first company you founded your own company
[02:42:25] I did there was one other company in between but it just got me a little bit more experience in the corporate world than then
[02:42:31] 2008
[02:42:32] I was working for a publicly traded company and you know
[02:42:35] I know you've worked with a lot of different companies, but in terms of culture the the biggest
[02:42:40] Disconnect for me personally as a former special ops guy is a publicly traded company because it's
[02:42:47] It's all about the profits. I mean it, you know there's good companies out there don't get me wrong
[02:42:50] But when when you're reporting financials every single day
[02:42:56] I mean we got to the point we're not doing a quarterly we're doing a really day
[02:42:59] I'm
[02:43:01] Are you people insane? I mean I can't do what I'm supposed to be doing for the company if all I'm doing is looking at the numbers
[02:43:06] So I got very very disgusted by it and I thought okay, I've got enough experience. I can do this myself and I started pinnacle in 2008
[02:43:14] And then what's that? What's the focus there?
[02:43:17] So we're an aerospace company we we initially you know, I mean it was me and one other guy
[02:43:21] So we started out with nothing other than a good idea and a powerpoint briefing and it's it's kind of hard
[02:43:28] I mean you know a true start-up like that in the defense contracting world is very difficult
[02:43:34] I mean most fail because it takes a long time to get contracts and if you have no past performance then
[02:43:40] You know why is anyone gonna give you any work?
[02:43:43] But we got some and we built on it built on it built on it and now today
[02:43:48] I describe us as a we do everything in the aviation
[02:43:51] Industry except build the aircraft so if you think about maintenance flight operations engineering logistics
[02:43:58] technical publications
[02:44:00] You know all of it we do all of that
[02:44:03] For predominantly helicopters, but we do that tilt rotor for the for air force special operations command
[02:44:10] We do some fixed wingwork for the air force we get some international contracts
[02:44:13] So we've really gone way beyond what I originally
[02:44:17] You know because you write the business plan and we're not gonna be in five years and and it's it's a fairy tale
[02:44:22] Really for most cases especially a true start-up because you don't know if you're even gonna get any traction
[02:44:27] So but we're so far beyond that now how big are you know in terms of employees so well a lot of workforce
[02:44:33] It's close to 600 by the end of the year and you know again in
[02:44:39] Five years what did I think we would have I don't know I probably put that have to go back and look at it
[02:44:43] You know 25 people something like that so it's enough people where we got it we have a a human resources problem pretty much every day
[02:44:52] That's the fun stuff yeah, so here you are how many how many years you end up doing in the army?
[02:44:56] It's 22 so you did 22 years in the army you are a damn POW you if you flew the best
[02:45:04] You know helicopters for the best unit in the world as far as aviation goes you end up retiring from that
[02:45:11] You're working to civilian sector for a while you build this business up to a
[02:45:15] significant business
[02:45:17] I would think maybe you're you're saying yourself okay, maybe it's time to you know pump the brakes a little bit and take a little time for myself
[02:45:24] But it turns out you're actually doing the exact opposite. I'm doing the exact opposite and
[02:45:29] You know it's it was a tough decision because I was the runway I was lined up on as I
[02:45:35] Describe it was
[02:45:37] Retire our youngest is graduating high school this year
[02:45:40] You know the company's done well. I can do whatever I want you know in the in the famous words
[02:45:44] It was an Elon Musk who said I could be on the beach drinking my ties every day
[02:45:48] But you know I want to make a difference so I
[02:45:51] I decided to run for Senate and I think you're getting that sentiment from a lot of
[02:45:58] Veterans because you know veterans have seen the sacrifice that people who served this nation have made and then you see things like the way
[02:46:06] I've can't understand was thrown away and you see the way the southern borders be inhaled and you see this mandatory vaccine mandate and you know
[02:46:13] You in particular where you hear speculation that seals are gonna have to pay for their tried-ins and turn them in
[02:46:18] If they don't want to get the shot, I mean that's absolutely ridiculous and it just
[02:46:23] You know you can sit there and complain about it or you can actually try to do something about it
[02:46:28] And I thought I feel the same way today that I felt in 2008 when I was working for that publicly traded company
[02:46:33] And I couldn't stand the way it was being run so that I could do this better myself
[02:46:37] So I kind of have I feel that same way I can do this better than other people that are doing it
[02:46:41] And I've met a lot of folks recently through trips to DC and you know initially when you look at them
[02:46:46] Some of them sound intelligent and a lot of them are don't get me wrong
[02:46:50] But if you meet them and you find out what's really behind the curtain
[02:46:54] It's it's a little scary. We need we need more people with true life experience is not career politicians people who you know
[02:47:02] This is not for me. I'm not going there to you know be in office for the rest of my life. I'm going there to try to make a difference and
[02:47:10] I really don't think you can understand
[02:47:14] military policy
[02:47:16] In business policy unless you've actually done it and a lot of these people have not done it
[02:47:22] I mean they they've studied it or maybe they think they know it but but they really don't
[02:47:26] I mean you look at some of the dialogue going on right now about Ukraine, you know some
[02:47:30] Our congressman said yesterday, you know, we would use nuclear weapons
[02:47:36] These people don't know what they're talking about you know and you got to have somebody that
[02:47:40] Can maybe apply the voice of reason now now you know Alabama is a very red state so in our state
[02:47:46] It's all about win in the primary and
[02:47:49] You know that's in me this this coming year and if that happens it's pretty much a guarantee you win the general and then
[02:47:56] Start serving in February of 23
[02:47:58] What was the how how did this start off in your brain?
[02:48:02] But also how did start off?
[02:48:04] What do you do do you?
[02:48:06] Do you call 1-800?
[02:48:07] I want to run for senate like how does that work?
[02:48:09] Can that some people do and it doesn't go very well, you know
[02:48:14] But no I was asked to consider and the reason I was asked to consider it is because I do have that real world experience
[02:48:21] And I have it has to be dusted off a little bit but I have name recognition
[02:48:25] I mean there's a lot of veterans in Alabama
[02:48:28] There's a lot of people that remember this story there's a huge aviation presence
[02:48:32] And having that
[02:48:33] Resume plus the business resume
[02:48:35] Is it real it's very very appealing to the average Alabama voter and
[02:48:42] The fact that you know, I'm not a career politician people are looking for our different answer
[02:48:48] I mean you look at Glen yonken you know big part of why he won is
[02:48:52] He's he's a fresh face with a new idea and real world experience
[02:48:56] It's the same thing Tommy Tuberville our current senator who I would serve with
[02:49:01] Coach of Auburn football, you know, it's the same thing
[02:49:03] Never been above addition before I think initially when he announced people were like
[02:49:07] Coach T I mean but I've met with him. He's doing an awesome job
[02:49:11] He really works hard to understand the process and he cares about the state, you know
[02:49:15] That's what it should be all about it shouldn't be about trying to further your own political career
[02:49:19] It should be I'm here to serve the people of Alabama and the nation because as a senator
[02:49:24] There's a lot there. I mean you know the things that you vote on
[02:49:27] Matter across the board and I think we got to have people there that have you know
[02:49:33] Integrity and you know there for the right reasons and that's why I'm doing but
[02:49:37] I could be nuts. I mean it's not fun
[02:49:41] Well, yeah, I definitely think you're not so you know
[02:49:43] When you're talking about the meeting these politicians for some of them that are up there
[02:49:48] We did a
[02:49:49] Probably too long of a podcast. I did a series of like five or six podcasts about this book that I've read called
[02:49:56] The Psychology of Military and Complidence and it's written by a guy that was a
[02:50:01] Psychologist but he was also a guy that served in World War II the book was published in maybe
[02:50:07] For five or something like this but one of the key points in it that it talks about is
[02:50:12] One of the reasons why and he he does the same thing that you just did
[02:50:16] Which is not he's not talking about everybody he points that out over and over again in the book
[02:50:19] There's plenty of military personnel that are awesome that are great leaders. They're outstanding
[02:50:24] But there are also people that are in the military that are horrible leaders and they're toxic leaders and
[02:50:31] One of the key components that he talks about is the of authoritarian mindset
[02:50:35] So what the problem is with the military is it gonna attract people if I'm a if I have an authoritarian mindset
[02:50:43] Up foritarian psychology. I want people to listen to me and I want things to be an order
[02:50:47] So what better way to to make that happen than to join the military becoming officer people have to listen to me
[02:50:52] And things will be an order and
[02:50:55] And then inside the military as we know if I never go into combat and all I have to do is
[02:51:01] Keep the keep the the the the uniform squared away and keep my area clean
[02:51:06] I'm gonna get promoted because I'm gonna run things like an authoritarian now
[02:51:09] I'm horrible in combat because I can't control everything and it drives me crazy and I freak out
[02:51:14] But it attracts that kind of person and then you know
[02:51:17] Just as you were talking about being in the government and being in a being in a position where you're in control of things
[02:51:24] It can unfortunately attract the same kind of deranged of
[02:51:29] Foritarians that want to go in there and control everything and so I think that's coming
[02:51:34] I think we're seeing a lot of that right now a lot of the government that is looking around going oh wait
[02:51:39] This is an opportunity for for us for me to become even more authoritarian about what's happening in the world
[02:51:44] I can control more we can mandate things and
[02:51:47] And I think you're in a position where I think a lot of people are starting to push back against that and want to
[02:51:53] Go through life and
[02:51:55] Have freedom individual freedom which is the thing that makes this country great in the first place
[02:52:02] Well, how did your wife feel about it so she is obviously the first person I spoke to that must have been a fun
[02:52:07] conversation
[02:52:08] You know she's not a very public person and and I thought she's gonna shoot me down right there. I mean I
[02:52:13] I was shocked at her reaction and she said
[02:52:19] You know if you think you can make a difference. I support you all the way and
[02:52:23] It kind of reminded me of the conversation about starting the business. I brought the kids in because they were still young and you know
[02:52:28] You're giving up your job. You have put your house up for collateral
[02:52:31] I mean the bank doesn't write you a check and say good luck, you know and so I brought the kids and I said
[02:52:36] I'm gonna go do this now you gotta understand if this fails
[02:52:39] We're gonna be living in a box and they still remember they remember they're living in a box conversation
[02:52:45] So you know I think as long as you
[02:52:48] Understand the risks you understand
[02:52:50] You know when when it gets near the end the negative ads are gonna come
[02:52:53] I mean people are gonna bash you on social media
[02:52:56] You can't avoid it. I mean doesn't matter who you are
[02:52:59] It's someone is gonna be against you and unfortunately there's lots of
[02:53:03] ways that people can communicate that today and
[02:53:06] I had my first hate mail and the
[02:53:10] And the letters to the editor this weekend in our hometown newspaper and I even read it and and my campaign team said
[02:53:18] That's a victory. He's they said you're gonna eat free publicity
[02:53:21] You know you're never gonna get everyone to say that they align with you, but you know
[02:53:25] It doesn't bother you don't honestly doesn't bother me
[02:53:28] But I someone asked me what's the biggest difference and I said you know in the world a week come from which is always gonna be me
[02:53:35] I will never not be that person
[02:53:38] You can trust everybody on your team. I mean
[02:53:41] There's a players and there's a player but you still trust them. They're not gonna turn on you
[02:53:47] In this world that I'm getting into you can't trust anyone. I mean even I mean my own team tells me
[02:53:53] Don't trust anyone if you have a conversation with somebody
[02:53:56] Assume they're gonna go and stab you in the back with whether information you provide
[02:54:01] So it's a very different world you know your guards up all the time
[02:54:04] But you know, I mean somebody's got to do it and
[02:54:09] There's a lot less qualified people than me
[02:54:15] That have been successful
[02:54:18] Man so for people to support you in this
[02:54:22] I know I looked at your you got Mike Durant dot com that's that's where people can go they can learn more about you
[02:54:29] You also are on all the various social media
[02:54:32] Which were you on social media before?
[02:54:36] LinkedIn okay, if you call if I social media could have fun
[02:54:40] You're gonna have fun. I mean people are
[02:54:43] You know, I
[02:54:45] This is the world right this is the world right now and people are people are crazy and
[02:54:49] They're not even crazy. They're just gonna say things to you to see if they can get you to get you to respond one time or get some
[02:54:55] I wrote tweet or whatever
[02:54:57] So I look forward to watching you navigate this
[02:55:01] Thank you
[02:55:04] You're on Twitter Mike Durant AL so Alabama Mike Durant AL Instagram same thing Mike Durant AL
[02:55:13] Facebook Mike Durant AL you have a year on YouTube channel
[02:55:16] Which is Mike Durant for Senate where people can learn more about you as you as you
[02:55:25] Go forward in this crazy place which again
[02:55:29] I think at some point you're at least gonna think to yourself maybe the
[02:55:33] Join an Elon Musk with my ties on the beach would have been a better call. Yeah, I'm sure there will be several moments like that for sure
[02:55:40] But but to your point
[02:55:42] Listen this this country you know again we've we're now of a son we're talking about
[02:55:47] We're talking about
[02:55:48] Fighting Russia for in Ukraine that's that's that's discussions that are happening right now
[02:55:53] We've got the problems at the border
[02:55:55] We've got problems with our our unrest in the country there's so many issues that
[02:56:03] I just for you to be stepping up to this way. Thank you. Thank you for stepping up. I know it's a terrible drag and
[02:56:11] But somebody's got to do it so there's a there's a man in the arena speech in my book which from the moment I first read it
[02:56:19] To me
[02:56:21] Really defines why I'm doing it. You know, I don't want and again it goes back to 2008
[02:56:25] Why I started the business I didn't want to sit on my porch at
[02:56:29] 75 thinking what if you know
[02:56:32] You got to you got to take the leap you got to you know take the chance right at these edge of what you're comfortable with and
[02:56:37] I'm you know succeed or fail. I'm not gonna have any regrets. Mm-hmm. Yep. Awesome
[02:56:42] Echo Charles. Yes
[02:56:44] Do you have any questions. Oh, yeah, you mentioned your back a few times
[02:56:48] Like what how's it now where where on your back was it jammed up so it's L
[02:56:53] Three I think it is and it's anyway down the kind of like a third of the way up
[02:56:59] It's kind of a miracle actually the only thing I can't do and and because don't bust me on this is I can't pull weeds at the house
[02:57:07] Something about my back
[02:57:13] But pretty much anything else you know, I stay active because I'm a big believer that you got to keep the juices flowing as soon as you stop
[02:57:20] First of all I'm 60 so you know things things started to deteriorate pretty fast that when you when you reach that point in life
[02:57:29] So I still I run I live weights I was playing hockey until just recently and you know
[02:57:35] Stay an active
[02:57:36] Got into climate some mountains this year I can think I climb five four teenagers in Colorado this summer
[02:57:41] So you know just you just got to stay moving and
[02:57:44] Staying strong is the key to a back issue no question, but you know
[02:57:49] I already know and then I'll get it I get some kind of muscled problem it'll lock up and you know last three or four days
[02:57:55] But you know I try not to overdo it and and so far
[02:57:59] It's hanging in there. Yeah, that's so crazy because there are people who have not broke their back
[02:58:05] Who will have major back problems in the 60 year 50 whatever?
[02:58:09] Yeah, same saying it's crazy got to stay on the path got to in all forms
[02:58:14] My look we covered you know again the wave tops of your book the wave tops are your life
[02:58:21] Is there anything else any other closing thoughts?
[02:58:25] Well, first of all very much enjoyed reading
[02:58:30] Your book I agree with it. I mean and it's funny because I think I mentioned when I first walked into building today
[02:58:37] Some of the some of the lessons learned in there. I applied this morning. You know because we did a management meeting
[02:58:42] Over the phone over teams we do a a bi-weekly
[02:58:47] Where we just get everybody at the speed on what's going on and and you know is all about just simplifying the message
[02:58:53] You know because if you think about it from a
[02:58:56] Worker at the point of the spear is perspective that really helps
[02:58:59] You know that that's where the message needs to resonate and if I might understand it or the legal guy may understand it
[02:59:06] But that guy or gal out there like what they all are they talking about you know
[02:59:10] So I and I think because of my background that's just natural for me
[02:59:14] I mean I don't a blue collar guy we we lived in a trailer, you know
[02:59:19] I mean my parents both working class people I left home with $70
[02:59:23] You know, I was a private I've mopped the latrine
[02:59:27] You know I I don't have to pretend to understand that perspective. I've lived it
[02:59:32] So I think that really helps and I don't know how you could get everyone to experience that because I think it's invaluable and
[02:59:41] There's been some great leaders who never experienced that but I think we're often not having that
[02:59:47] Humbling sort of meager beginning really really gives you a better perspective on how to
[02:59:53] How to lead people because because as you say it's all about trust
[02:59:57] It's all about respect
[02:59:59] It's all about you know keeping it simple all those things that you know if you've come up from that
[03:00:05] part of the the ecosystem
[03:00:08] Maybe come natural to you by the way
[03:00:11] Doug Brown you reminded me when you said about your commander who told you about
[03:00:15] You know
[03:00:17] Where the quiet professionals not the sound professionals he is and he may he probably doesn't remember that and and
[03:00:22] And wouldn't likely deny it but I talked to him about writing this book and
[03:00:26] He said no one's gonna give you our time right now, but you know at that at that point
[03:00:31] The movie's out books out. I'm out and retired
[03:00:34] You know and and so if he gave me the endorsement that was good
[03:00:38] You're gonna get it because at that point he's forced our general right yeah
[03:00:41] I mean, I've read so many books on this podcast from
[03:00:44] From some private soldier that fought in
[03:00:48] Korea from a guy that served in Vietnam
[03:00:51] It just and and there's so many lessons to learn and not only is it lessons to learn
[03:00:57] But it's also capturing the history and the and the stories of the service and sacrifice of all these people
[03:01:03] So I think that's probably where general Brown was coming from you know looking at you thinking about what you've been through me now
[03:01:10] We don't have we don't have any other buddy that we don't have anyone else that can tell that story
[03:01:15] They don't exist so for you to for you
[03:01:18] Put that word out. I'm sure general Brown was thinking look it's not just
[03:01:23] Not just people won't say anything in 30 years in 40 years people are gonna be so thankful that you wrote that book because now
[03:01:31] We have a document that's that can explain everything that you learned and
[03:01:35] Explain the incredible sacrifices of of the the troops that served alongside with you and and fought and sacrificed their lives for their team and I think
[03:01:46] That's not only is it that that needs to be done and it was a healing process
[03:01:52] I don't think I touched on that earlier, but when it was over it it felt like I
[03:01:56] Just did something I was supposed to do you know and it felt like just getting it all out
[03:02:02] Was was part of a recovery which which I don't think you ever fully recover from this
[03:02:07] I mean it depends on how you define recover, but you know to think that emotionally
[03:02:12] I'm not affected at all by what happened there is a false I mean I you just can't help it every now and then
[03:02:17] There's a wave that comes over that's grief, you know
[03:02:19] I mean these are these are your family and they're gone. Yeah, you know
[03:02:23] I had a I'm the same way you know losing my guys and it's just horrible and you know
[03:02:30] Sometimes I think well
[03:02:32] How long is that last for and I had a guy on the podcast named Colonel Tom Fife who was he fought in
[03:02:38] World War II Korea and Vietnam and he received a purple heart in World War II Korea and Vietnam
[03:02:45] And we were on the podcast we talked about World War II we talked about Korea
[03:02:50] We talked about Vietnam and he was a baton commander in Vietnam, you know, infantry batton commander
[03:02:54] And we were talking about their optimal and operations that what they were doing and and I asked him about
[03:03:00] You know the casualties that he took in his battalion and as I asked him that
[03:03:05] I saw he almost immediately started getting choked up and emotional and
[03:03:11] That's when I realized to myself I thought to myself. Oh, I'm always gonna feel like this
[03:03:16] It's always gonna be there so like you said I
[03:03:20] You know, I don't think you don't get over it and probably not healthy to get over it
[03:03:25] Like how can you forget your friends? It's never gonna happen and I do think that writing about these things has helped me a ton and talking about them has helped me a ton
[03:03:33] The the the act of writing when you write something you
[03:03:38] De facto detach from it, you know, you you read the words that you wrote and it you get a little separation
[03:03:44] You can kind of process it more so I think the writing is therapeutic and does help move people forward and
[03:03:51] Helps you process what you've been through and in a in the most positive way that I can think of
[03:03:57] Because then other people get to see and get to read and hear and understand more clearly
[03:04:02] What you've been through and also the sacrifices that were made. Yeah, and you know
[03:04:07] It's like some books are critical of the military or whatever
[03:04:11] There's nothing there's not a bad thing in there about but and yeah, there's some bad things it happened by the way
[03:04:17] Some of that language is kind of flowery
[03:04:21] And that is Stephen, okay. That is not me none of those flowery where it's gay
[03:04:27] Yeah, it's good to have you know somebody that helped you out write it and kind of
[03:04:31] Clare or fry some stuff and add some words that you know you didn't learn when you were living in a trailer new hamper
[03:04:37] Yeah, I don't know my mother would probably cringe if she knew I said we've lived in a trailer
[03:04:42] Was this short period of time?
[03:04:44] You know, we were just
[03:04:46] And I didn't know the difference. I mean, I was a happy kid. Everybody lives in a trail
[03:04:50] So it was there my upbringing was fantastic. I really had a great family to great part of the country to grow up in
[03:04:58] Winter sports, you know
[03:04:59] It's a I miss a lot that's so that's where the hockey comes from I started playing hockey when I was a kid
[03:05:04] Yeah, people don't understand you drive through Massachusetts and there's hockey rings all over play stuff there
[03:05:09] They're playing their hockey. That's for sure
[03:05:12] Well
[03:05:14] Like I said thank you thank you so much for coming on. Thank you for for
[03:05:19] Sharing your stories sharing your lessons on it's
[03:05:22] Thank you for what you're doing right now to to step up into the arena
[03:05:26] That's a
[03:05:27] To be a US senator that's a whole new battle a whole new different type of battle and thank you for doing it and most important
[03:05:35] Thank you for your service and your sacrifice
[03:05:39] For our great nation and finally and most important that we honor and salute the sacrifices of the brave men
[03:05:47] Who fought alongside you and who made the ultimate sacrifice for their brothers and for our country
[03:05:54] Thanks for joining us and it's been my pleasure and
[03:05:59] With that Mike Durant has left the building
[03:06:04] so
[03:06:06] pretty
[03:06:08] Pretty all kinds of crazyness going on there crazy
[03:06:12] For me as I sat there and was looking at him
[03:06:15] You know and I was always talking about
[03:06:17] The the video that came out of him and that was everywhere and I was in the seal teams in special
[03:06:25] Operations was hearing all the rumors and of everything that was going on and here I was watching him on TV
[03:06:33] Was that 28 years ago and
[03:06:36] Now we're sitting here talking to each other. He lived
[03:06:41] He went on with his career
[03:06:42] He lived he did everything that he did and now he's sitting in this room talking
[03:06:47] Sharon history with us. That was
[03:06:51] Yeah, I remember feeling that
[03:06:53] Not quite all that but feeling that with um
[03:06:57] Bill Reader and
[03:06:59] He was like when you know you go through all this experience and you're like look at this guy
[03:07:03] He's just sitting here right now just talking to me and that's what he went through and here he is
[03:07:08] There he is right there, you know, but you're is even more because you were you remember that
[03:07:12] Actually, I mean you were watching it. That's crazy. It is very crazy and then when you have all those names that overlap
[03:07:19] You know whether it's general brown
[03:07:22] Like that's crazy right general brown was his battalion commander who's talking to him on the radio
[03:07:28] I
[03:07:29] Was an admiral's aid sitting on an aircraft with general brown flying to some other country
[03:07:35] Going into meetings in the Pentagon with general brown is the same guy. Yeah
[03:07:40] Is the same guy Adam Curtis who was the guy that got rolled up in Panama with his wife
[03:07:48] I worked for that guy. He was my task unit commander when I was an E5 in the single teams
[03:07:56] The same procurement that's in that book
[03:07:59] That caused the invasion of Panama to take place kind of yeah one of the one of the primary causes
[03:08:06] Yeah, and kind of goes back to something that you said before a while ago where it's like those aren't
[03:08:13] Can just characters in a story yeah, all right a movie or something. Yeah, and I said that early on in this podcast
[03:08:19] Is it hey remember that when we're reading this book these people
[03:08:23] These characters that you hear they're not characters. They're people and I guess you're right that's such a
[03:08:29] Absolute clear connection to the fact that they're not just characters
[03:08:34] There are people yeah
[03:08:37] But also have mom for sure and
[03:08:41] Man
[03:08:44] What did it what a what a crazy battle the incredible incredible
[03:08:48] incredible battle
[03:08:50] Incredible sacrifices made on that day and
[03:08:54] Yeah, makes us think of you know how good we have it you know like like Mike Durant pointed out you know
[03:09:00] You'd meet the families and realize
[03:09:04] Well if it wasn't for them he wouldn't be here. Yeah
[03:09:08] So I think that's probably one of the things that drives him to continue to
[03:09:13] But want to serve so
[03:09:16] We got to continue we all have to continue continue to serve in whatever way possible
[03:09:23] Also, I'll tell you what's impressive he's in good shape. Yeah, good shape. Yeah, even the like look at them
[03:09:29] Yeah, like all okay this is 60 doing it. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, so I think that's a good
[03:09:37] Probably a good thing for us all to think about if you want to maintain some sort of capability
[03:09:43] Probably a good idea. It's true very true and as we mentioned before where hey have you ever broke your back?
[03:09:50] No, I have not ever broke your love bar. Yeah, spine haven't crashed in a freaking in a in a black-all helicopter in an
[03:09:57] Out-of-control black-hawk helicopter spinning to the earth
[03:10:01] Compressing my spine breaking my femur having been dragged around by a mob of angry some always and beaten right after by the way, but right after that
[03:10:09] You know, so you haven't
[03:10:11] That has to be okay me neither as you you probably know me neither
[03:10:18] But he still runs marijuana. Have you ever ran a marathon? I have not me neither no
[03:10:22] I'm not my granddad. I'm like their aunt did yeah for sure. Oh climb to what do you say five four teenagers this
[03:10:29] Past summer what does that mean sixty fourteen thousand foot peaks? Oh, that's tall. Oh
[03:10:35] That's the slang that's how you say it for 14 years. You say the gear
[03:10:39] Let me send yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, you know, I've never climbed five or any
[03:10:44] Four teenagers for that matter and I haven't broken my back. So what I'm saying is the point there is there that's a that's saying a lot
[03:10:52] Or it's putting things into perspective
[03:10:55] Same saying we're like you can break your back and break your femur compound fracture by the way
[03:11:01] Then dragged then captive with no real medical attention for eleven days and
[03:11:08] Then after that go still lift still climb five four teenagers still run marathons
[03:11:17] It's kind of like okay now it kind of puts into perspective this might be a choice if we're not kind of on the path you know
[03:11:25] So yeah, we got to stand that path we want to choose the right path choose the right path
[03:11:29] Yes, sir. What do you got how how can you help us choose the right path? We want to be strong
[03:11:33] One be capable he made a good point. He was like the thing about your back is strength is very important
[03:11:37] Yeah, right and that that's true like if you have a strong back it like effects everything just like if you
[03:11:43] Leave talks about that like life has a bad back if he deadlifts
[03:11:47] Yeah, he gets better if he doesn't it gets hurt yeah, and even that is a crazy weird little dichotomy too
[03:11:52] Right because if you have a bad back and you start dead lifting all crazy heavy
[03:11:56] That's that's that's bad. You gotta be squared away
[03:11:59] I can't be an ego lifter
[03:12:01] That's sure that's someone was just learned reason yeah, that's that can be dating us too for sure
[03:12:06] And the last one be capable right because how much you're lifting or not lifting one be capable
[03:12:11] You can be capable of lifting heavy things kind of got exercise that can stop and be capable of running marathons or
[03:12:16] 14ers or whatever the case maybe
[03:12:19] Get exercise that can stuff but when you exercise yes, it is rough. He can be rough
[03:12:24] So we might need supplementation, but don't worry
[03:12:26] Jocquette supplementation jocquette. Man's just landed. I'm just a little danger. I'm just staying in the facts
[03:12:33] I'm just saying you just press record, but I'm gonna say thanks, Jocco. Thank you. That was freaking poetic
[03:12:38] I can't take credit continuity of that whole just the way it landed in there, you know
[03:12:43] Well, thanks thus storm whatever you're putting it down right target every time yes, sir
[03:12:48] But I can't take credit. I'm just staying in the facts. Okay
[03:12:51] Right, what do we got for supplements so for well let's start with the energy drinks. Okay, so not typical energy drinks not traditional energy drinks not
[03:13:00] Old old
[03:13:02] Unreliable poisonous
[03:13:04] And what they used to give you and you had a headache back in the day?
[03:13:07] More a fiend or cocaine
[03:13:09] Yeah, cocaine right so yeah, yeah, like cocaine. Yeah, maybe cocaine was for the answer cocaine was for that
[03:13:14] More a fiend was this morphing was for that. That's what they do like I I don't feel great today
[03:13:18] Cool, but you want more fiend right on that's that was a normal thing
[03:13:22] All by the way and smoke these these things over here suck on this smoke into your lungs because I know how you do
[03:13:28] They were legitimately doing that. We're gonna think even you like vodka or something too for salt
[03:13:32] So they would tell pregnant women hey, you know, you need to relax go have a couple
[03:13:35] They did that my mom yeah my mom told me she was drinking gin and tonics like a bug a boss, you know
[03:13:41] When you was pregnant with me, which explains a lot
[03:13:43] Explain to little yeah, you got him saying yeah, but when I do that anymore
[03:13:49] Right what I but what I'm saying is you wouldn't have known back in the jury that when the doctor
[03:13:55] prescribed you
[03:13:57] cocaine
[03:13:58] Yeah for your headache you wouldn't be suspect until you were freaking crackhead
[03:14:05] Right so it's a thing with right now with the
[03:14:08] Traditional poisonous energy drinks that a lot of people don't even know that their poisonous yet. Yeah, they're sitting there drinking them
[03:14:14] They think they're actually good to go they think that that's just a little bit of cocaine and they're gonna be fine
[03:14:18] It's not it's a lot of bit of cocaine and it's addictive and it's killing you
[03:14:23] So we're not down with that what we are down with this monk fruit
[03:14:27] Well, we are down with this pasteurization what we are down with is
[03:14:31] 95 milligrams of clean caffeine that's what we're down with we actually made something that's healthy for you
[03:14:37] Yeah, my kids drink it my own children drink it. Yeah, so if you want some
[03:14:44] We get some discipline go. That's a new paradigm of energy drinks
[03:14:49] Well, you know stuff that's good for you. Good for your brain too. There's some new tropics in there
[03:14:52] You got to keep that in mind when you're drinking this stuff. Maybe that's where you get your little landings from you get the whole story
[03:14:58] You know figured out boom there you go. That's the discipline go kicking in it. It's very possible bringing it on home. Yes, not less
[03:15:04] Yes
[03:15:07] Sometimes when we're lifting running marathons climbing
[03:15:10] 14ers five or whatever the case may be sometimes joints get jammed up
[03:15:16] But
[03:15:17] We got some supplements for that as well join work for super-crile oil get on the the the subscription
[03:15:23] Actually to all these things, but especially for these because that's not the that's not the fun one like the monk
[03:15:27] Which I'll get into in a little bit
[03:15:29] It about a 30 40 minutes from now. Yes, sir. Yes, sir. Oh, but it's true
[03:15:36] Even me a grown man. I have my routine very effective
[03:15:40] But everyone's a while I'll forget that's the the cruel oil and the joint work for not recently
[03:15:45] But it has happened
[03:15:47] But you have you get on the subscription
[03:15:48] It'll that'll help but nonetheless you want to look after your joints on this thing don't neglect them
[03:15:52] It's easy to neglect if you let it let it happen but don't neglect a
[03:15:55] immunity look out for that to 100% vitamin D3 take that every day. I take it every day
[03:16:01] I take one the morning one at night by the way
[03:16:03] Cold war that's there got your back that's like air support right?
[03:16:07] It's fine overhead it can lay down some some thunder if needed
[03:16:11] So you go on that you get the cold war going and then you're just gonna say something about milk milk all day the milk train
[03:16:17] So I've yet
[03:16:19] To try the banana one. Oh, I have it standing by. Oh, it's good, but tell see you proved. Oh, yeah
[03:16:24] Oh, yeah big time, but now you're getting the full on banana cream scenario. Well
[03:16:29] Creamy banana cream right because that's just said that the frozen bread banana makes it more creamy
[03:16:34] same as what she said yeah
[03:16:36] So yeah, milk protein
[03:16:39] additional protein in the form of a dessert
[03:16:43] That one a little bit harder to forget
[03:16:45] Something because it's kind of your mind a lot more because I think about because sometimes you're getting done with a
[03:16:51] 28 ounce Tomahawk steak
[03:16:53] This is about as good as the world gets right you eat a 28 ounce Tomahawk steak by the way
[03:16:58] I got some sitting in my freezer right now they're getting ready to get crushed
[03:17:03] But I will finish a 28 ounce Tomahawk steak. I will be so
[03:17:10] satisfied
[03:17:12] Mentally
[03:17:13] Physically
[03:17:15] Spiritualy spiritually. I guess what I still want a little more kid or a little kid
[03:17:20] And then it makes complete sense. It makes complete sense. So yeah, so like you're gonna be like it's gonna be on your mind way more and
[03:17:27] Underway more circumstances as opposed to like you never like okay, so a lot of times you can be like oh, yeah
[03:17:32] I'm really in the mood for a little more kidder or let's face it big one
[03:17:37] Or triple one whatever the case may be you will you will find yourself in the mood for that from time to time pretty often actually
[03:17:43] Yeah, but you don't really find yourself you know, I'm in the mood for to take some krill oil
[03:17:48] Yeah, it's like it doesn't work even though the benefit to the krill oil is or or very significant
[03:17:54] Same same yeah, I'm just saying keep these things in mind yep get yourself some milk
[03:17:58] That way you can have dessert and feel good about it juggle white tea by the way it's winter time and some places including here
[03:18:04] That means you transition into that warm tea in the morning and a little bit of juggle white tea
[03:18:08] You see that you see that deadlift kick it back up to 8000 you know if you've been off the path for a little bit on the tea
[03:18:13] Yeah, just just just check yourself
[03:18:15] You can get the drinks at wall-walk you can get all the items at vitamin shop and you can order any of it all of it
[03:18:23] From juggle fuel dot com and if you subscribe shipping's free
[03:18:27] Oh there you go, yeah, sir. Also origin USA
[03:18:32] dot com
[03:18:34] Or just origin USA in general so American made goods products we got jeans we got boots we got
[03:18:41] wallets belts
[03:18:43] pants other work pants hoodies you know heavy hoodies heavy hoodies like for real heavy for real heavy not whole why
[03:18:51] No, no, yeah a little bit different main heavy yes, there Minnesota heavy yeah northern Michigan heavy
[03:18:59] Montana heavy have talking heavy heavy hoodies that are suitable for all these cold scenarios
[03:19:06] so origin USA
[03:19:08] dot com and and here's the deal
[03:19:11] We could just leave it at that right be like cool. Yeah, that's the really high quality products
[03:19:17] We could leave it at that yeah, go get some we can't because we gotta tell you something else they're made in America
[03:19:23] they're made in America by American human beings with
[03:19:27] with
[03:19:28] materials that were also made in America and born in America and grown in America
[03:19:34] So when you buy something from origin you're not just getting a shirt you're actually rebuilding America
[03:19:39] Yeah, you're rebuilding our manufacturing you're boosting our economy you're putting people to work
[03:19:46] So look do we want to have
[03:19:50] collateral benefits when we buy something yeah
[03:19:54] Well, what if the collateral benefit is your hurting America's economy?
[03:19:58] That's not good. What if the collateral
[03:20:01] benefit is that you're
[03:20:02] Keeping a weagre in China in a slave labor camp is that good? No, that's not good. It's not good. All's I'm saying is you should shop at origin USA dot com for freedom
[03:20:15] for the cause of freedom around the world
[03:20:17] It's true like you ever you ever known someone who really doesn't take pride in their work
[03:20:23] Yeah
[03:20:24] You ever met someone who does take pride in nowhere. Yes, I had okay, so boom
[03:20:28] It's night and day as far as the contrast goes yeah at origin like everyone everybody from Pete
[03:20:35] All the way across the spectrum to
[03:20:37] Everyone else
[03:20:39] They're taking pride in that work trust me. I've been there. I've seen it with my own eyes. Sure
[03:20:43] Speaking of taking a pride in our work
[03:20:47] Chocolate store it's called chocolate store it's a good store there
[03:20:50] Chocolate store dot com is breaking it you discipline equals freedom short-tatt hoodies
[03:20:54] Some rashguards on there some shorts on there. I know it's season the Christmas season little cooler not everywhere though. Yeah
[03:21:03] Yeah, I'm seeing how here in California. We're still wearing shorts. I'm something we were in shorts right now
[03:21:09] When people see me wear pants
[03:21:11] They're always well when like my normal people yeah my local friends see me wear pants. They're like oh
[03:21:17] I'll dress up. But I remember when my the youngest daughter like the first time she saw me
[03:21:23] Parallel with a pair of jeans on yeah
[03:21:25] She was like all like why are you all dressed up? Yeah, that's how it feels so
[03:21:30] True so yeah again you can get some good stuff you want to represent on this path
[03:21:37] So the shirts speaking of shirts on on there. We have something called the shirt locker
[03:21:41] Good name by the way
[03:21:43] Chocolate proof name anyway. This is a new shirt. I came from a trooper by the way. Yeah, and you spell it s
[03:21:49] H U R T locker yep, but unlike the hurt locker. This is good stuff
[03:21:56] Good stuff, but it's a smile on your face. Yeah, I'm new shirt every month creative designs good ones
[03:22:02] This next one you might you might recognize this next one okay any further hints no
[03:22:07] That's it. This is like it. You might like it. Okay
[03:22:10] But yeah, so we got some new features on there as well coming out probably in the next day or two
[03:22:14] Should be on the lookout for that. It's just like what you remember this some more so it's like a little bit upgraded
[03:22:20] You know some more benefits to the subscribers of the shirt locker. Yep. Yep. It's true
[03:22:25] All upside good stuff. Jockels stored dot com. You want to represent that's where you get the stuff cool
[03:22:31] Speaking of subscriptions you can subscribe to this podcast on iTunes Google Play Stitcher leave some reviews
[03:22:37] Also, we have Jockel unraveling don't I've been kicking out a couple of those recently we're hitting some topics some topics that are a little bit
[03:22:45] Let's say controversial maybe they're heavy for sure. Definitely heavy
[03:22:49] The Christmas joy one just came out about the about total award world award too. What that was all about
[03:22:56] So if you want a little Christmas joy check out the Jockel unraveling sarcastic not a place for not not a place for joy
[03:23:02] But if you want to know about history so we don't repeat it
[03:23:04] We want to find out what's going on in the world and how we're late so what happened the past check out jocco unraveling podcast with Darryl Cooper grounded podcast warrior kid podcast
[03:23:12] We also have jockel underground
[03:23:14] Jockel underground dot com it's our own
[03:23:17] Free sanctuary free from tyranny
[03:23:22] So look we don't control the platforms that are out there
[03:23:25] We hope we don't ever have to
[03:23:27] Upend them we hope we don't get
[03:23:29] Forced off of them, but we don't know what's gonna happen so we have to have a contingency that contingency is
[03:23:36] Jockel underground dot com if you want to support our
[03:23:41] our our sanctuary
[03:23:44] Then you can
[03:23:46] Go to jockel underground with our dot com $8.18 a month to help support us when we're doing there we get you a
[03:23:52] additional podcast that's Q and A going over some tangential but important topics
[03:23:58] So yeah, and if you can't afford it that's all right
[03:24:02] We still want you in the game email assistance at jocconerground dot com
[03:24:07] Here's a youtube channel. Yeah official
[03:24:10] A lot of good stuff on there. Is that like a blue check mark? I think it's gray. Oh, you know, but yes
[03:24:16] I check my well, you know, we know it's not yet we know it's not an imposter scenario
[03:24:20] Okay, I'm seeing but yeah the video version of this podcast you can see what everybody looks like it's a good good mode
[03:24:26] A lot of people watching
[03:24:29] YouTube on their TVs nowadays. Well with smart TVs and whatnot, you know what that is right a smart TV
[03:24:35] Yeah, you can watch YouTube on it
[03:24:39] That's for the ways. Yeah, sir. You are but yeah, man. So yeah, YouTube channel. We got some extraips on there
[03:24:45] You know some other stuff some additional stuff. We do we're starting to put some additional stuff on there
[03:24:49] So yeah check that one out subscribe if you want also I made it I made an album
[03:24:54] Well echo recorded it. I guess I talked anyways if you have maybe moments a week
[03:24:59] If you want to come them check out psychological warfare
[03:25:01] It's available where you view by MP3s. We also have flipside cameras.com to code out Myers
[03:25:07] Making cool stuff that you can hang on your wall here in America. So that's freaking legit
[03:25:12] And then there's books obviously
[03:25:14] The book that we covered today in the company of heroes by Mike Durant he also wrote the book the night stalkers
[03:25:21] So those are great reads check those out final spin. I wrote them
[03:25:27] A fiction story
[03:25:31] It's available right now check it out final spin leadership strategy tactics field manual
[03:25:36] The code devaluation that protocols discipline because freedom field manual
[03:25:39] Wait, the warrior kid one two three and four get that freaking book for all the kids you know get all those books for all the kids you know for Christmas
[03:25:44] That's my recommendation
[03:25:48] I wish I could
[03:25:50] Could get those books to every kid
[03:25:54] So please help me because those books will help those kids also got Mike in the dragons
[03:26:01] We have about face by current David Hackworth. I wrote the forward to the latest a dish
[03:26:07] It's tree ownership and the dichotomy leadership which I wrote with my brother
[03:26:10] Dave Babin we also have a leadership consultancy where leadership is the solution
[03:26:15] Leadership is the solution and go to echelon front dot com if you want to check out what we're doing there
[03:26:23] we have
[03:26:25] Obviously consultancy we have live events we have the master we have field training exercises
[03:26:31] We have EF battlefield we have the Dallas master coming up March 24th and 25th
[03:26:35] We also have an online training
[03:26:38] Academy
[03:26:39] The extreme ownership academy
[03:26:41] This is where you can come you can ask me questions and look it's about leadership pressure
[03:26:45] But it's about taking ownership of your life
[03:26:49] Take ownership of your life. Do you take do you are you able to control your life by
[03:26:55] Reading one book or listening to one podcast are you able to learn jiu-jitsu by going one time to a class?
[03:27:01] Are you able to get in good shape by going to the gym one time? No you need consistency
[03:27:06] You need to review this stuff. That's why we made extreme ownership dot com
[03:27:09] To help you take ownership of your life
[03:27:14] So go and check that out and if you want to help service members active and retired their families
[03:27:19] Gold star families you can check out Mark Lee's mom mom Ali
[03:27:23] She's a incredible human being she has an incredible charity organization
[03:27:29] And I just heard Joe Rogan talking about going into the hyperbaric chamber and how much he has benefited from it
[03:27:36] one of the key things
[03:27:38] That mama Lee's organization does is it gets
[03:27:43] Sessions like
[03:27:45] a month worth of sessions plus hotel plus living expenses while you're down there plus travel to get there to get veterans into these hyperbaric chambers
[03:27:54] For a month worth of treatment or 45 days worth of treatment and there's been incredible feedback from everybody to the
[03:27:59] Donut
[03:27:59] So if you want to help with that, it's one of the many things that she does if you want to help or you want to donate or you want to get involved
[03:28:05] Go to americasmideatwariers.org
[03:28:10] And of course if you want more of my tedious talking or you need more of echoes questionable questions
[03:28:17] You can find us on the in the webs
[03:28:19] On Twitter on the gram and on Facebook echoes at equitrals and I am at jockelwillink and of course
[03:28:24] Mike Durant
[03:28:26] Running for the Senate in Alabama if you want to support him go to Mike Durant dot com
[03:28:32] Look at his social media. You can see it's gonna be an interesting ride right? He's just getting in the game in social media at age 60
[03:28:39] I should have told them
[03:28:41] It's got a wild here's a YouTube channel too. Yep, so I was gonna just mention if he didn't know already
[03:28:46] But hey, just let's be careful the only YouTube comments the careful as YouTube comments sure
[03:28:51] On Twitter Mike Durant AL
[03:28:54] Instagram Mike Durant AL Facebook Mike Durant AL and of course on YouTube Mike Durant for Senate
[03:29:00] So once again, thanks to Mike Durant for coming on the podcast honored to have you here
[03:29:08] Really incredible to meet someone in person
[03:29:12] That I've known about and actually watched from a distance as he went through this incredibly traumatic
[03:29:21] Situation, oh I watched along with the rest of the nation and really the rest of the world honored to have you on here
[03:29:26] Thank you so much for coming and thank you for your continued service to this day and to other military personnel
[03:29:34] There personnel out there in the world
[03:29:37] Thank you for protecting our way of life at home and a special salute to the special operations aviation regiment the night stalkers
[03:29:46] The night stalkers who fly into the worst places in the world for the best reasons
[03:29:53] And also a solemn salute to the incredible special operations forces that served in Somalia and fought and died as heroes
[03:30:08] And to our police and law enforcement firefighters paramedics and EMTs and dispatchers correction officers board of patrol
[03:30:15] Secret service and all first responders. Thank you for protecting our way of life here at home
[03:30:20] And everyone else out there
[03:30:25] Well
[03:30:27] No matter what happens
[03:30:30] No matter what you're facing no matter how hard things to get
[03:30:37] Remember
[03:30:39] Remember the motto
[03:30:41] Of the 160th special operations aviation regiment the saying
[03:30:47] That got chief or officer Michael the ramp through the worst of times that that motto is simply
[03:30:54] Night stalkers don't quit
[03:30:59] And either should you no matter what do not quit
[03:31:03] And until next time the Zeco and Jaco out