Jocko Podcast 278 w/ Archer, John Dudley. The Wins Don't Always Come Easy and You Don't Always Win.

2021-04-22T09:13:41Z

Underground Premium Content: https://www.jockounderground.com/subscribe Join the conversation on Twitter/Instagram: @jockowillink @nockontv @echocharles 0:00:00 - Opening 0:03:40 - John Dudley. Bow Hunting and Life. 1:54:49 - Final thoughts. 2:51:44 - How to stay on THE PATH. JOCKO UNDERGROUND Exclusive Episodes: https://app.redcircle.com/shows/64a89f88-a245-4098-8d8d-496325ec4f74/exclusive-content Jocko Store https://www.jockostore.com/collections/menApparel: Jocko Fuel: https://jockofuel.com Origin Jeans and Clothes: https://originusa.com 3:19:28 - Closing Gratitude.

AI summary of episode

haircut all the time, but he coached a couple, a couple, super high-level archers, but he was also like, he didn't coach very many people, and he was also, you know, very, I don't know, he was very like stone, you know, so you knew if he was there, he was there watching his few athletes, and they like would pay for him to come and stuff like that, but I remember one time I was in a leading group, we got peer grouped, and then the second day, you know, like ranks 1, 2, 3 and 4 together on the target, you know, in the shoot through, and then it kind of came down to the last target, and you know, I needed a 12 or something to make it into the shoot off, you know, into the top 6, and I missed, you know, and I was freaking pissed about, you know, like broke my stabilizer over my knee and freaking hammer tossed my bow through the woods type thing, and, you know, ended up coming back, like with my bow, just kind of seeing the damage I did, and he came over to me, his name was Tim Strickland, and he said, you know, you could be an amazing archer, but he said, until you start not letting the arrow that you shoot affect the ones that are still in your quiver, you never will, and he said, he goes, do you know a way to get an arrow back once it's left your bow, and I said, what do you mean he goes, do you know a way to get it back other than to physically go down there and pull it out of the target like you just did, and I said no sir, and he said, well, once it's gone, it's gone, and he said, so if you make one mistake, don't make the same mistake for every arrow that's left in your quiver, you know, make one, pull it, you know, pull that arrow out, throw it away, whatever you want, but there's other arrows in the quiver that are capable of doing what you want them to do, and so there's been tournaments where I've, you know, I've actually talked, you know, where I will freaking make a bad shot, and then just look down on my quiver and be like, do any of you sons of bitches want to go in the tenoring because that guy didn't, and you know, and it was just like a totally different approach and mentally, it honestly helped me, this was a, it's kind of a weird thing to say, but, you know, he told me said, you won't figure out how to win until you learn how to lose, and that was, you know, I was like the rage of losing was overpowering my ability to perform at my best because I was letting, you know, I was letting those things happen, and then I remember kind of wanting to get into that a little more, and I read some kind of a sports psychology book, you know, I don't know what it was called, but it said something in there that this sports psychologist had talked to like, he worked with a lot of high-level pictures, and he told him that part of their success was that they had to be able to accept that there was going to be an empire that would, they needed to expect two to three bad calls by the empire, every game, and when they got a call that they didn't think was right, they could just check it off the list of okay, well, there was one of them, and so I started doing that too, and started saying, okay, when I go to an international event because there are certainly our judges that call them really, really tight, you know, and they're all looking at them with the magnifying glass, but they're some like when you'll say like judge, and then, you know, some dude comes over that isn't a tour, like if that, you know, when they do the random thing of like judge, so and so go pull it, and then you see him, you're like, it's out. So, you know, if I focus on just execution, and so once I kind of came to that realization of no one can beat me if I'm executing, if I make a good shot right here, I don't need to see where it lands, because if my site tapes right, and I trust the equipment that I've got, I know it's in the middle, like I know that, but I have to execute here, and so it really got to the point where I like, I took away my spotting scope to where I wasn't getting in the habit of shooting an arrow looking for the result, shooting an arrow looking in a result, which is something that even today, when I work with parents, I tell them that there's, there's like parents that at an archery tournament, they sit like front row with a spotting scope, so the kid will shoot, and then they'll be like 10 at 11 o'clock, and then, you know, the kid will shoot and just turn around to like dad to get confirmation of like how that was, and so part of the things when you have that type of parent is telling them like, listen, this kid, like they need to execute, them looking for you at you for, you know, the result, all the time, it just athletes start to lean on their coach so much, and that was actually one of the problems with some of the people that had that coach that I talked about. I mean, while like the wives and kids are just like not giving a crap about what's going on, but then you just turn in your score card and, you know, this, but once you get into like the professional events, there's two people that keep score, the majority of the group has to agree on the arrow call, and then if there's ever a divide, then you call an official scorekeeper to come and call it, which is kind of a big reason why I liked progressing, because once I was shooting like internationally, you know, they had like, you couldn't even have an arrow judge that was from your country, so if you, you know, it's like if an American needed an arrow call, someone would come over like an official judge from another country would come over because obviously now there's teams competing against teams, so, you know, these judges had schooling on how to call an arrow and stuff like that. Yeah, like, you know, had to, like sat around after tournaments and would like take down courses for places if they'd give me a target, so I'd have another target, you know, or, you know, I would freaking cut grass or clean the bottoms of people's boats, or whatever, so I could buy another target, and then, you know, I had to have an entire range to practice on, and then it just, you know, and then I wanted like a colored target bow, and then it just, it's just like, it's me, it's just me, it's who I am all the time, it just, you know, I had to like, I had to get good at it, but then there came a point where, um, and actually at that tournament was kind of a turning point because this is the cheater one. They only did really well when he could be there with them, because, you know, he'd be like, all right, hey, you miss that one, if those guys, you know, you're good, you're the free, you know, and they had to have that, that continual like affirmation, whereas honestly, for my life, I feel like most of it, I was alone, you know, in regards to like, I like training alone, you know, honestly, I like archery too, because it's a singular sport, so if I train and if I prep, then I'm ready, and it's in my hands, same with hunting, you know, same way with hunting. So I feel like, because I've had to train that way, and even even when I lift, you know, I love lifting by myself versus like going to somewhere where people distract me, I just feel like, you know, I've, I know that if I put in the work, then at that point, it's, it's really on me, not on someone else, and like, when I told you, we sucked it football, you know, there was a couple people like, you know, like Jason, who knew their role and knew their position, and other people's position, and they would cover for people that maybe didn't do something right, but there's also three cores of the team that didn't. And, you know, even though it was a raffle, you know, people still well, you know, not everyone's got 20 bucks to buy a bunch of raffle tickets and it's like, you know, you can't make everyone happy, but the reality is, you know, if someone really wants to go through and put it all together, they can, you know, they can read all these and, you know, so many different things that I've heard you talk to people, you know, and give them, I don't know, you people will come and be like, hey, you know, Jock, go give me some advice about this. So, you know, I think we made a lot of really good choices by weighing out, like, long-term relationships that understood the direction we needed to go, but we weren't there yet, but they were going to help at a rate that they could to where we could get to our goal versus, like, you know, a lot of startups or the perfect example of, like, you know, they make a lot of dumb decisions as I did as a business, you know, given stuff away to the wrong people, and those, those places come and go all the time, and I think as like an and, you know, an ambassador type figure, whatever, you can, I think you can be like the call me influencers. So then I went to the National Triple Crown and slept in the back of my truck and, you know, shot at that and sucked at it horribly, but then the next year, you know, I instead of going like two, I went to all of them, drove to all of them, and just got better and got better, and then within like five years, I was at a level that was, you know, that I was happy with, but I was also still refining it, you know, just there's, that's what's cool about archery is, I think the reason I'm still doing it is because, you know, I still find, if I'm not centered, then it shows, so it's hard, like, you're never going to have a perfect game to where you can just back away and know that like, okay, that was a Cinderella story I've done, because you can go have a perfect round, but then in an hour later, I've seen you have to shoot another one, I just, I don't know, it's just what I was into, like I was a skater and honestly, there was, I enjoy skating, I enjoyed like freaking ninja movies and so I, like, I built ramps and you know, and people and I was just like a punk and Northern Illinois, that, you know, when, when everything was like skater died and there was, you know, all these, like anti-scape things, that was me. But even if they don't listen right there, by the next time they talked to you, they've a hundred percent, you know, went crazy about trying to apply that, you know, the work ethic is very, it's like the perfect formula for a coach, you know, is all those guys and every, every one of them that I've introduced it to so far has needed, has really needed archery as, I don't know, like, like you said, it's like a quiet, it's like a quiet form of what you used to do, you know. So, you know, I just eventually, I did what I needed to do in competitive archery to like help me build a platform to where I really wanted to go, which is I've always liked to coach, you know, and, and I've always liked really good coaches, you know, I've liked, I'm the type of person where I liked coaches that like, honestly that like yelled at me and were like, Paris had coaches, we're, you know, Sharon said, that guy just sat there and like, I kind of think I would love that guy. You know, I remember like one of the saying, my football coach always would have, he'd be like, you know, bring the boat in, you know, he always would say like the boats lost, he's like a geor job to bring the boat in, you know, and he was like, you're job-meaning you, They're doing a couple of team things there, and so he had asked me if I wanted to go down just to to teach some navigation of like, instead of learning the long distance aspect to like make some competitions on the closest shot to where they, you know, to where I would assess their choice of that navigation and like what they could do different to where it's like, okay, we know how far you can shoot something from now, you know, who can jack something at a guard or whatever, you know. So there's no one watching, because just you just can't you're like on a path through like through this course, to where it's not like golf, like professional golf, there'd be like a crowd following like those leaders through that course, which in professional archery like that happens. But yeah, learning that, you know, learning how to lose, because I've lost way more than I've won, and that's a fact, you know, you have to figure out a way to win in life, you know, you do have to figure out a way to win, but if you deal with like being a hyper-competitive, then you also have to learn how to lose, otherwise you freaking derail yourself, way more than others can derail you, and I'm convinced that I beat myself way more than other people beat me and most of the things that I've lost at, you know, it's like, which is why now my coachings involved so much, because now my coaching is so focused on, you know, what you execute within your box, because I kind of got to the point where I recognized if I make a good shot, it's a 10, that's the highest score on the paper. I mean, they're freaking cute up, you know, because I remember, uh, Andy and I were on something where it was, it was, it was a pretty tough, like, yeah, it was kind of a little bit of a miracle that we pulled off this stock and jack something I don't know what it was, but I remember saying, like, you know, doesn't seem like it'd be that hard to kill a person, he's just like, dude, because it is not this hard at all. I was more, you know, I come up with things to talk about based on someone I'm working with at that time, but yeah, the brand became a community, you know, it became, you know, Sharon always said like, we're not, you know, we don't have fans, we have, you know, we have a community like we have, you know, we have a knock on nation. And honestly, my mom's like, you know, she was so, you know, involved with her position at backster to where she's like, yeah, if you want to, you know, go somewhere for a month in the summer, do it, you know, because I think she probably just, you know, was managing plants and Puerto Rico or Singapore or wherever the heck, you know, she was for her job. If they don't know like stroke and like how to block and breathe and you're like taking on water in your mouth and you're like trying to blow that out and yeah, you know, you're freaking sprinting when there's waves up like and we were on that hillside, glass and you just said, bro, this freaking, this is a recon right now, like, you know, I'd have a team right over there, there'd be freaking two dudes right there, they'd be like, you know, back up and then we'd be here and like, you know, the shit would be all pulled over tight, you know, you were in your element just dorking out. Yeah, it is 100% I think it's an awesome and awesome sport, especially for people that come from your background who are looking for a new mission, you know, you set it perfectly because with all of you guys who have done it, you know, learning a new discipline or a new trade is one thing but then once it comes to like packing up to freaking go on call, that lights a whole different intensity where, you know, hey, we're meeting, you know, we're out at dark, back at dark and when you're out there, you know, geared up and freaking ready to get after it, you know, I remember the first time you and they acted like, you know, he just told them something this never been said and it's like, actually, if they would follow that, like, you know, I'm a broken record when it comes to archery, I've, I've boiled down a recipe to, you know, what I feel is like a balsamic glaze. It was like and rode down and I'm just like, now you tell me dude, I freaking was taken like full endos, just freaking one after another in the freaking mortar zone, just taking heavy artillery, Josh going Josh or just out there like, watch me just like, you know, he'll be back, he'll be back out here 15 or whatever. So what I feel bad about is, though, is I know that some people are doing like they're like, oh, cool, like I want to support because we're like, you like, hey, man, if you want to support what's going on here, then you get some get some gear. You like really like when you're at a local tournament or a weather, it's freaking bowling, you know, like over the line, you know, markets zero, they're just having an argument, you know, it's like you can cheat. But yeah, like, I think about, you know, because like, all my dads, you know, all my dad's military stuff, like, every picture he had from, you know, as a child, you know, everything we had, every single thing. So it went from like me being like the short fat skater to now I'm, you know, second tallest kid in the school and growing and, you know, becoming an asshole, you know, just kind of being, you're just growing up just being like overly confident, you know. So I just went like full sprint for like the first 30 seconds and then Josh, like, as I'm like kind of starting to burn out, you know, that freaking Josh is like strokes by and there just go and then Jocca was just looking back. If I, you know, I've had hunts where I've had a lot of distractions, and I threw my stuff in a case that, you know, the day before and went and, you know, missed a couple shots and was just like, in rage, but then I also thought like, yeah, dude, you didn't prep, you didn't know homework, you know, that's what happens. and it's like this weird like mock-up of the design on this real like real like like, what do you see in these, like, model? Or, you know, you know, there's just ore I can try a different species or a different, you know, climate or a different time of year, and it's a whole new challenge, like it's a clean slate, and then you're, you know, trying to formulate a plan and map out a plan of how do I, you know, how do I, like, win this challenge? So I just like stretched out and just looked like this gumby going up and down the basketball court, you know, my dad's like, I always felt like if you tripped it sound like a chandelier break and a crossing. It'd be like, you know, it'd be just like walking up and even if a big dude, you said like, you know, hey, do a clean and jerk and you just like put 200 pounds on there. You know, I didn't, like, if I would have just, like, taken that blanket and like, you know, if he would have just said, go throw that blanket out in the yard, like, game over. So they said, you know, if you feel like you want to create a bow that's specific to, you know, to your followers or if you want to do something and I said, well, you know, can I bring in a bow that's like at a budget price, you know, and they just said,

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Episode transcript

[00:00:00] This is Jockelpond cast number 278 with echo Charles and me, Jockel Willink. Good evening, echo. Good evening.
[00:00:10] It's a little cold outside, but it doesn't matter.
[00:00:18] Nothing else matters right now, except doing my job right.
[00:00:24] This job.
[00:00:30] I take another step as gently as I can, as quietly as I can.
[00:00:40] This is where it all matters.
[00:00:44] I can't let them hear me. If they do, they'll be gone.
[00:00:50] Then I won't get my shot.
[00:00:57] I take another quiet step. I see my buddy freeze.
[00:01:03] He sees them.
[00:01:07] They must be in range.
[00:01:11] My buddy slowly looks back at me and gives me a nod.
[00:01:16] It's go time.
[00:01:23] I prepare my weapon.
[00:01:29] By now, I know this weapon well,
[00:01:33] I've shot thousands of rounds through it in the last year for this moment.
[00:01:39] Ever since I was a little kid, it's been this way.
[00:01:47] Stocking through the woods, closing the distance, trying to see without being seen.
[00:01:53] My adult life was much of the same sneaking around in the woods or in the desert or in the city or in the jungle.
[00:02:10] I take a few more steps and find some cover by a tree. This will keep me hidden.
[00:02:16] My buddy gives me a hand signal. He's given me the range.
[00:02:26] Nothing else matters. I initiate the procedures.
[00:02:34] My mind is full, but it's empty. My heart is beating, but it's steady. It all comes down to this moment.
[00:02:41] I'm alive.
[00:02:53] Now that may have sounded like a combat scenario,
[00:02:59] but it wasn't. It was a description of a more recent pursuit of mine.
[00:03:05] Everybody jeżeli.
[00:03:10] I'm miserable.
[00:03:13] I got taken in just a single region.
[00:03:18] potent recovery, a recent public recovery.
[00:03:22] Madame Marianne, president of California,
[00:03:26] a friend that is always ready to help. Not just me, but an entire community of people. The world
[00:03:36] renowned founder of knock-on-artry, John Dudley. Dud? What's up, man? Thanks for coming on.
[00:03:45] It's a story. That was awesome. It was a fire, right? Yeah, especially this season where we were
[00:03:55] on a lot of bowls and that happened that little thing played out time and time and time.
[00:04:01] Time and time again. I ended up not getting any shots off, but man. It was freaking fun.
[00:04:08] All right, man. Let's go. There's a lot of people that really don't know much about you.
[00:04:13] And let's go back to the beginning because I have heard peace together stories of your life.
[00:04:21] And there's a lot of good ones, man. It's always surprising that you're here. You
[00:04:26] weren't arrested. You're not prison. You're not dead. You know, there's a lot of different
[00:04:31] men. Yeah. Abonus, you could have headed down. Dang, right? Yeah. Just a horrible.
[00:04:37] I don't deserve my wife or my son. Just like all the time. I'm just like karma.
[00:04:43] Like he's that real patient sniper. And at some point, like I don't think he's made any fire yet.
[00:04:49] If he has, they've been off so much. I haven't heard him come by, but like I'm still waiting
[00:04:55] just to get sniped because I deserve it if it happened. All right. So where were you born?
[00:05:02] Fort Bragg. Cud your dad was an army. Yep. Yep. And is that where you did you spend any time in
[00:05:08] Fort Bragg? Do you remember if you spent any time in Fort Bragg? I don't remember it. No, I don't
[00:05:12] remember it because it was it was 76 and then I think by 77 we were in the Mississippi Delta.
[00:05:20] Was he still in the army? No, I think he just got out. And then what was what he
[00:05:25] did want to get out of the army? He was a he was pretty much like Bill Murray. He was a groundskeeper
[00:05:32] for a golf course while he went to college after getting out of nom. You know, came back and
[00:05:38] really was like, he was like a hundred percent like freaking scope and out gofers and wait,
[00:05:44] this is Caddy Shack Bill Murray. Yeah, we are always. Okay. Yeah, I remember I remember like
[00:05:51] being with him in that golf cart cruising around and he went to and this is stuff I haven't
[00:05:58] even talked to him about. This is just from memory from that long ago, but I'm sure he went to
[00:06:02] Delta State and Cleveland, Mississippi. My mom worked for Baxter Health Care and that's why I
[00:06:08] think we were there and so my dad went to college for psychology and you know, I remember
[00:06:16] plug-in, and learn into plug holes on the golf greens and smoke in that first ball washer with
[00:06:23] the golf cart when I was, I don't even know how old I was. I just know like, you know, my dad
[00:06:28] being like, bring that golf cart over here and it was in reverse. I just stomped on and just drove over
[00:06:33] the ball washer. Yeah, the first time karma made a little. That's the first time karma saw me
[00:06:37] going away the second and retracting on this nerd. Yeah, I mean, I wonder what my dad would think,
[00:06:43] you know, damn, is that a sign? That would have been a real easy one to get to get over. Yeah,
[00:06:51] because it just, I was a tornado for a while. Wait, so where'd you do like the bulk of your,
[00:07:00] like when you were in, let's say like six, seven to eight, when you start actually, you know,
[00:07:04] figuring out the world and all that, where are you then? It would have been Illinois. We were in the
[00:07:12] Delta until I was seven, I think, and then my mom got transferred up to Northern Illinois
[00:07:18] to work for Baxter and that's kind of where I grew up. And when I came up there, honestly, I was
[00:07:27] a little bit rebellious. Not really sure why. I just, I don't know, it's just what I was into,
[00:07:34] like I was a skater and honestly, there was, I enjoy skating, I enjoyed like freaking ninja movies
[00:07:43] and so I, like, I built ramps and you know, and people and I was just like a punk and Northern
[00:07:52] Illinois, that, you know, when, when everything was like skater died and there was, you know, all these,
[00:07:57] like anti-scape things, that was me. So yeah, school, you know, there was definitely a little bit of,
[00:08:06] you know, hate towards skating then and I wasn't like, I had no drive athletically. I was just
[00:08:15] wanting to like pierce my ears, like play with fireworks, you know, blow stuff up.
[00:08:25] I think it's around. This is how old built.
[00:08:27] Eight to 13, it was just like, you know, my first construction job I said was building ramps.
[00:08:37] I mean, I had ramps all over the place. My sister freaking hated them. How good? How good
[00:08:43] it's skating where you? I would say I was just below intermediate.
[00:08:51] Is it something where you, how many hours a day were you skating? Like a lot. Yeah, I had
[00:08:59] half by, of course, what's up with the stellar level of just below intermediate? Because I
[00:09:05] the only instruction I had was watching the search for animal chin freaking every day, like
[00:09:11] in a big box of cereal and then go out and just try to get after it. So what, at what point
[00:09:17] or what was it that made you start doing athletics sports? You teen me up for this? So
[00:09:26] I think I was doing some weird stuff. Yeah, because my dad was, I always knew my dad was a
[00:09:31] super athlete. You know, he was my uncle and me on my mom always told me how athletic my dad was.
[00:09:39] And not to mention, he was just good at, you know, anything like, honestly even the skateboard,
[00:09:47] he's just like, what's that? And I learned to skate on this half pipe and he's just like,
[00:09:51] oh, let me check it out and then he just do it. You're just over your drive. He had a ball of
[00:09:56] all. But no, I like I said, I liked fireworks and like, you know, blowing stuff up and, you know,
[00:10:09] one thing led to another and freaking burn my house down at 10 years old.
[00:10:14] It's over 11 maybe 11. Maybe 11. Literally. Yeah. Yeah. Everything except for what was in my
[00:10:21] dad's car while he was at work and what was in my mom's car while she was, I think in Puerto Rico
[00:10:26] on a business trip. How old were you? I think I was like 11 or 12. How did it happen?
[00:10:32] Playing with fire, freaking lit some stuff on my bed on fire and then like put it out,
[00:10:39] called my dad and my dad, you know, he's like, do you get it out? I said, yeah, I got it out and he
[00:10:44] goes, is there smoke in the house? I go, oh yeah, there's freaking tons of smoke and he's like,
[00:10:49] open up all the windows. He said, you know, he's like, I hate the smell smoke. You know, get that
[00:10:53] shit out of there. So I opened up everything and he's like, go open up the windows and everything
[00:10:58] come back and tell me what's going on. So I came back to the phone. I'm like, I open up everything.
[00:11:02] It's smoke in, but smoke's going out. So he talked to me for a little bit and then he said,
[00:11:09] we'll go check on it, go back down and check on it and I went down when I went down. It was like
[00:11:13] in golf because I just gave it oxygen. You know, I didn't, like, if I would have just, like,
[00:11:20] taken that blanket and like, you know, if he would have just said, go throw that blanket out in the
[00:11:24] yard, like, game over. But, you know, I put it out and then freaking fueled, like, open the front door,
[00:11:32] open the window and just freaking gave that thing. What were you burning? Like, like, matchsticks,
[00:11:37] were you burning like what? I think I was just playing flame thrower with a lighter and some
[00:11:42] aqua net that has just been mad. And so, so the whole house burns down. Oh yeah, everything.
[00:11:54] Yeah, everything. And so it was, I mean, I don't really know what kind of conversation my parents had
[00:12:02] because they never, they kind of asked what happened or something, you know, but they never,
[00:12:10] like, made me feel horrible about it. And then they just let, I mean, you must have felt like freaking
[00:12:17] horrible though. Oh, still do. I mean, I laugh about it now. But yeah, like, I think about, you know,
[00:12:23] because like, all my dads, you know, all my dad's military stuff, like, every picture he had from,
[00:12:30] you know, as a child, you know, everything we had, every single thing. I remember it was in the
[00:12:37] winner. So everything like froze, like after they put it out. And I remember digging through it with
[00:12:43] my dad, you know, we were like digging through the thing, like a couple days later, just trying to
[00:12:48] see what you can find. And I remember we like, we were digging and found this, like, closet that was
[00:12:54] in right inside our front door and it like fallen through and the, like, the glass doors were there.
[00:13:00] And I remember my dad, you know, shuck in the glass doors open and he had a pair of these, like,
[00:13:05] lacrosse, winner boots and they looked a brand new and I'll never forget how excited. He's just like,
[00:13:12] my boots, man. Be freaking grabbed him. He's just like, my boots are okay. And I remember, like,
[00:13:18] that was it. Like, other than what he had in his, the trunk of his car and what he wore to that
[00:13:23] day, like that was it. So then we, you know, started to rebuild naturally. I was a skater and not to mention
[00:13:36] 10 years old. I was five foot, 130 pounds. So I was like short and fat, you know, short and
[00:13:45] chubby. And so, you know, short and chubby skater, you know, wasn't an athlete. So then, you know, my dad could tell
[00:13:53] I was, I was bummed out, you know. And so he kept telling me, like, you need to go, just go do something,
[00:14:00] you know, just, you know, go get active, hang out with your friends, like, you know, he wasn't
[00:14:04] want me to like sit around and get depressed about it. So they talked me into going out to, like,
[00:14:09] a school dancer or something. You know, this is whatever fifth grade or something. I remember going
[00:14:15] and they said, like, this, hey, the songs dedicated to John Dudley and it was burning down the house.
[00:14:23] So I wanted to put on a kid's drink. Some jocco over there said that one, my one.
[00:14:31] That's, I was, fortunately, that's exactly what, that's exactly my mode. What I was a kid to be a
[00:14:37] little freaking savage. Yeah. So then that's amazing. That your parents recognized that you felt
[00:14:46] enough guilt on your own without having to just turn the screws on your brain to make you feel even
[00:14:52] worse about it. Yeah. I don't know if I could have done it. Like, I don't know. I don't know what
[00:14:56] the conversation was. They've never brought it up. And there's been times where we've talked about
[00:15:01] the fire. It's kind of how it's referred to. But they've never gone into detail. Like, my dad's
[00:15:07] never said, like, yeah, man, I knew if I freaking threw that shit on you, you know, it cracked you or
[00:15:12] whatever. But what happened was, you know, and me, oh, maybe this is just my dad psychology. But
[00:15:20] what happened was after that dance, my dad knew, like, we need to get this guy out of this town.
[00:15:27] So we moved about 45 minutes away. And without him ever telling like, saying anything to me,
[00:15:34] I knew when I moved. Like, I need, I need to freaking make it right with my dad. So that's when
[00:15:43] I went and started. But I'm just like, you know, he's, I know he's always wanted to be me to be an athlete.
[00:15:50] So like, I need to get my shit together and start getting into sports. And this is how, how will
[00:15:55] you? I think I was, because you keep saying like 10 12 10 12. Well, there's a bigger thing.
[00:16:00] 10 10 10 10. Yeah, I think the, I think the fire was when I was 10. And then we probably moved when I was 11.
[00:16:09] Yeah, because then by when I got into junior high school, that's when I'm like, I'm going to be an athlete.
[00:16:15] What did it start with? What was the first sport? Basketball.
[00:16:20] Um, well, yeah, I think basketball football. There's all in. Yeah. Basketball football running. And then,
[00:16:30] you know, there was, I knew you had no experience playing basketball. That's it.
[00:16:35] My dad always shot hoops. That's what I mean. It's not a little bit of a little bit. Yeah, a little bit.
[00:16:39] But then I started growing. So I was like, I remember at 10, I've got this football card.
[00:16:45] And it says like, it has your stats on the back. And I think my grandma gave me that photo,
[00:16:51] because we didn't have any pictures, you know, going back pre-fire. So I was like 5 foot 130 pounds.
[00:16:58] And I was like, Chubby. Then when I was a freshman, so what is that 13 12 12 13 13 year
[00:17:07] freshman I think? So then on that, on that one, I was 6 330. And then by the time I was senior, I was 65
[00:17:16] 205. So I just like stretched out and just looked like this gumby going up and down the basketball
[00:17:26] court, you know, my dad's like, I always felt like if you tripped it sound like a chandelier break
[00:17:31] and a crossing. How much would you practice like, okay, so you get into basketball, the
[00:17:38] you start saying, because I mean, that's that's a for you to make a transition from like, hey,
[00:17:42] I'm a skater with freaking whatever you probably had like the Tony Hawk bangs and stuff like this.
[00:17:49] Hell yeah. So you had the Tony Hawk bangs. Then you're like, all right, maybe a basketball player.
[00:17:54] You get a crew cut. You start freaking training. Is it like that kind of, we talking rocky?
[00:17:59] What's that thing called montage? Is there a montage going on? No, not really, because I still,
[00:18:05] I mean, I still liked, you know, getting in trouble and freaking blowing stuff up and, you know,
[00:18:14] order and fireworks wherever I could or egg in some houses or, you know, whatever kind of this
[00:18:21] shift. I stole my mom's minivan one time. She had this, she had this Pontiac transport.
[00:18:28] You remember those ones? It was like a wedge. It just sloped. Yeah, because eventually my parents got
[00:18:34] divorced and I can't remember when it was. It was somewhere, you know, junior high or something like that.
[00:18:39] But my mom traveled a lot and I was home on my own a lot. And so I remember, you know, my mom would
[00:18:48] have like cars take her to O'Hare. And so I remember one time, like, I'm just going to go take that
[00:18:55] van out for rip, you know, like, all the ball washers in, you know, all the email and all I
[00:19:01] would do is I'm driving by. Yeah. So I'm driving around, you know, seventh grade, just driving around
[00:19:08] my town and this minivan and one of my buddies was on his bike like driving out the road.
[00:19:14] So I pull over and I'm like, what's up, man? He's just like, holy shit. Did you steal a car?
[00:19:20] I'm like, yeah, it's my mom. And he's just like, and, you know, and I thought I could drive pretty
[00:19:26] decent because I had my dad would never let me get like motorcycle or anything for obvious reasons.
[00:19:33] But he let me get a boat. He got me a 12 foot boss and wailer with a 25 horse on it.
[00:19:39] Okay. So that's like, I put a thousand miles on that freaking thing, dude. I mean, my dad would
[00:19:46] fill up that little five-gann, five-gann gas can and the Fox River chain was only a block from
[00:19:54] my house. We live like right on a channel. So I just drove that boat all the time. So to me, the minivan
[00:20:00] was gravy, right? No current. You know, didn't have trim til, like this was, it wasn't a pull start.
[00:20:09] This was freaking gravy. But I'm sitting there talking to this, this kid and I see someone coming
[00:20:17] up behind me in the mirror. So I said, I go, hold on. I'll let me freaking with over, you know,
[00:20:21] and I've been written reverse and trying to like do a little, you know, whip in. But that long
[00:20:28] beak on the front of that freaking minivan, I ended up swiping this dudes like back pegs and like
[00:20:34] took him out underneath like the front of the car and like bent the back of his bike up a lot.
[00:20:40] So then I ended up having a, you know, trade him like my good bike at a GT, you know, I had to trade
[00:20:46] him like a good freaking, it was good bike for a huffie. Yeah, for this freaking huffie that he had.
[00:20:52] And and I'm just like, you're not going to say nothing. He said no, but, you know, looking back,
[00:20:57] you know, if any of our kids rolled in with a brand new freaking GT, you know, with the gyro on it,
[00:21:05] freaking pegs on the front back, you'd be like, hey, who's bike did you steal? So anyway, you know,
[00:21:12] fast for today, I'm knocked out. Always. Holy crap. The kid broke bro. He broke big time.
[00:21:20] The desk went out to go to a blind. They could, they could, they could be at me.
[00:21:24] drove home in the car. Yeah, it was just, you know, stuff like that. Yeah, Ben, you hear like, wait,
[00:21:30] job, dubbie, dad. Little kid was driving his mom's car. I'm going over to the right now. Yeah.
[00:21:36] I don't think anyone wanted to get close because, yeah, I mean, I had, I had freaking
[00:21:42] straight bangs down here, slung it. And yeah, just, I think, I think when I got into sport,
[00:21:51] they're, and originally, I didn't want to really play football. I was supposed to play golf.
[00:21:57] Like, my dad said, don't play football. You're not, you know, you're too brittle. Go play golf.
[00:22:03] And when I went to the high school, like the tough kid in school came up to me and goes,
[00:22:09] hey, what are you going out for? Because I was standing in the line. And he said, I go,
[00:22:14] I'm going out for golf. He's like, no, you're going out for football. And I said, no, I'm going out for
[00:22:18] golf. I have to do golf. And I remember he said, well, we need enough guys to scrimmage. And he said,
[00:22:25] you know, I'm quarterback. So he's like, you're signing up for football or I'm going to beat your
[00:22:31] ass. So I freaking signed up for football. I'm never told my dad for, like,
[00:22:36] until he saw me in the paper. What do you, what do you see in the paper for? Well, because I ended
[00:22:41] up becoming quarterback and like, taking that kid's job. So how was he was saying, I would take my golf
[00:22:47] clubs to school? Because I'd say like, he's like, how's golf? And I'm, it's all right.
[00:22:54] But I was playing football because I kind of had to. And I started out as like defensive in and then
[00:23:00] tight end. And then I think I like chucked a football back. You know, I think I caught a pass and like
[00:23:06] went in the end zone. And then the coach was like, hey, throw the ball back. And I think I just freaking
[00:23:12] just hooked it. And he just like, whoa, you know, wait a minute. So he had just one thing led to another.
[00:23:18] And just I think I think I loved, I don't know, just the concept challenge. It's hard to
[00:23:29] describe. But it's like, if I know I'm not good at something, which I really had never fueled that,
[00:23:36] then it didn't keep me coming. Like, I'd get bored with it. But if I, if I wasn't good at it,
[00:23:43] or if I knew that I had room for improvement, then that's the things that I progressed at. But it just
[00:23:49] kind of got to the point where no matter really what the sport was, I felt like I could do it above
[00:23:54] average. And then I honestly like my body started to change. So it went from like me being like the
[00:24:02] short fat skater to now I'm, you know, second tallest kid in the school and growing and, you know,
[00:24:11] becoming an asshole, you know, just kind of being, you're just growing up just being like overly
[00:24:17] confident, you know. But I felt, I just felt so much confidence. It was like gas. Just sports for me.
[00:24:26] Was just gas. Because it's like, oh, you want to do track? Okay, go do track. What did you do in
[00:24:32] track? Um, high jump, triple jump. Whatever I wanted. Honestly, 100, 200, 400 and you just go to the
[00:24:43] all of them. Yeah, I mean, I did for my team. Yeah, I did good. Did you, did the coaches like try and keep
[00:24:50] you focused on one thing? I think, yeah, like the idea that some people have that the best thing to
[00:24:57] do with their kid is put them in one sport when they're four years old. Yeah, that's keep them
[00:25:00] focused on. And then other people are like, hey, have your kids play a bunch of different sports
[00:25:06] and it's going to make them more well rounded in the end. Well, it's, in a way, you look at it like
[00:25:12] functional fitness now. It's proven that, you know, if I would have had more functional fitness
[00:25:18] in my lifestyle, I would be feeling a little bit better today than I did pre-surf. You know,
[00:25:25] for the first time with you, um, because like some of my stuff is smoked, probably because it's not
[00:25:30] like functional fitness. And I'm, I'm a, you know, I feel like the reason I still today do good.
[00:25:37] It just random things I pick up is because, you know, when you do different sports, you also get
[00:25:43] street smarts in athletics. You know, that's the thing, like there's booksmart people and then
[00:25:48] there's street smarts people. And as like an employer, I, you know, I'm not, I don't look for
[00:25:55] degree. I look for work ethic. And I look for someone that, you know, when they pull up and I look
[00:26:02] in their car, it's not a freaking wreck. It's not trashed, you know, and I look for people that have
[00:26:09] certain types of work ethic qualities. Because for me, as an athlete, I feel like, even though I wasn't
[00:26:16] like the pinnacle of all these different sports, I also learned different mechanics and different, like,
[00:26:23] you know, physical smarts from doing a lot of things. And I always, I always wanted to do good enough
[00:26:32] at it to where I felt like I could put it down and pick it up and still like represent it. Well,
[00:26:39] you know, if I felt like I, if I did it and looked like an idiot in front of people, I'd want to do it
[00:26:44] more until I could get it figured out. But my son, you know, coming from England, he was in the soccer
[00:26:52] first. So he came over and, you know, he played soccer quite a bit, but over here, soccer is like a
[00:26:57] one season thing. So once he got into junior high, you know, he tried football and I realized that just
[00:27:04] wasn't this thing, you know, it just wasn't, you know, getting hit and stuff, just wasn't this thing.
[00:27:11] But he was like always fast, you know, he's always fast and, and he likes, I mean, he
[00:27:18] performs at his highest if especially when he knows someone's pumped about the fact that he just did good.
[00:27:27] So I ended up talking him into swimming because he did, let's see, he did soccer. I knew soccer
[00:27:36] was coming up. We talked him into cross country and he didn't really like the people.
[00:27:40] Love the coach, awesome coach. And then I talked him into going into swimming, winning the
[00:27:45] swimming, had a freaking awesome instructor, military dude, super disciplined, slam like, honestly
[00:27:54] for how young he was. I was like, okay, these guys are crazy two days. Like, Charms getting up at
[00:28:00] 430, having him to the pool at 515, they do an hour practice and then shower and then she'd get
[00:28:10] him home to feed him before we take him to junior, you know, whatever high school or whatever. So he had a
[00:28:16] pretty like awesome schedule, I thought, you know, I'm like this guy and he was getting straight
[00:28:22] days, which I don't ever remember taking a book home. Like, I don't even remember being a sign
[00:28:29] books. Yeah, part of it was different, I didn't wrong. It was different back then. I mean, like, I didn't
[00:28:35] do, like, I see my kids, my kids will have, and they're older now, but when they were in school,
[00:28:40] it was like homework every day from day one from like kindergarten on through high school, hours and
[00:28:47] hours and hours, the homework. I never did homework. Homework was not a thing. And I, I,
[00:28:54] wait, now let me refresh that. It was a thing. It did exist. I knew that it was a thing in
[00:28:59] existence, but it wasn't a thing that I was doing right? It wasn't like, oh, it's, you know, it's
[00:29:04] the afternoon. I'm gonna do homework now. It was like the afternoon. I'm going to throw rocks at
[00:29:08] shit. I guess that was, that was where I was at. So what, what sports did you end up playing?
[00:29:15] Because I know, like you rattle off one time to me, you're like, oh, I did freaking wrestling. I did
[00:29:19] basketball, I did football, I did baseball, I did tennis, I did freaking, you did everything.
[00:29:23] Yeah. Well, you just named them all. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I did, I did quite a bit. I wrestled a year
[00:29:32] mainly because I did basketball, really didn't like the coach. And just, I'm like, I freaking hate
[00:29:39] this guy. So then I went and wrestled and coming into wrestling as a sophomore, and we had a really
[00:29:46] good wrestling school too. Like both the Guidas are from. That's right. Yeah, you saw me that.
[00:29:52] Yeah. So like Jason was my guard and Clay was a little bit younger, but, you know, we had a
[00:29:59] fire up was Clay Guida when he was 14. Dude, dude, dude, he's 30 whatever right now. He's still
[00:30:05] fired. Let me just tell you Clay, well, Jason was Jason was like on a clay level, but like more,
[00:30:15] like more of a gorilla, you know, Clay gives Jason a lot of credit for being a savage and trust me.
[00:30:22] He was every game. He like, before every game, he'd take a mouthpiece out of a packet and we'd
[00:30:30] put it on his helmet and then he was like my pulling guard. And I remember like, by fourth quarter,
[00:30:38] I'd be like grabbing his mask. I'd normally like grab his face mask to like call plays.
[00:30:44] And I'd look and it would just be like the plastic piece like because he would chew just
[00:30:50] be eating like a human. He would eat a whole mouthpiece and his eyeballs were like this big around.
[00:30:56] Yeah, this is Jason or Clay. Jason, yeah, Jason. And I remember, I remember one time, like him and
[00:31:05] him and his brother lived in a part of town that was like, you know, um, I don't know, there's a
[00:31:14] lot of savages over that way. You know, there's like a lot of like wrestlers came from that group
[00:31:19] town. There's a lot of bad asses over there. And I remember one time like Jason came to practice
[00:31:26] and he was kind of pissed because he was like chainsawing something on his garage and the chainsaw
[00:31:32] kicked back and hit him in the top of the head and like chainsawed his head open and dude,
[00:31:38] he just threw his football helmet on and freaking got after it. Dude, like that right there.
[00:31:45] I was just on a on Jason and I wrestled the same the same weight class, which was what I think
[00:31:53] 171 in our sophomore year, but he was like way better. I was just on Jordan Peterson's podcast
[00:32:01] a little while ago and he was like talking to me and I was like talking about how like when you're
[00:32:04] a young kid and that's not everybody, but you just want to like fight and go and that's my
[00:32:11] picture when you picture him just knowing a part of this freaking mouthpiece and his eyes are all big.
[00:32:16] This kid needs to go to combat somewhere like that's what he's meant to do.
[00:32:20] And he did. And he did. So you wrestled for a year?
[00:32:26] Yeah, wrestled for a year. But it's good to look. I'm okay. How good of an athlete you are?
[00:32:29] You roll into wrestling and did you not just get like crushed? Oh yeah. Okay. Yeah. Yeah.
[00:32:37] You can't catch up. You know, I wrestled. Yeah. I wrestled JV and I mean they were that we were a wrestling
[00:32:46] school. Like, you know, we had we had some really good wrestling coaches and
[00:32:53] me. Yeah, it was tough. It was tough. But I really I was still like getting into my body honestly
[00:33:00] at because I stretched up so high. And so I didn't have a lot of coordination. But I had work ethic.
[00:33:06] You know, that's one of the things before like before I go down that route like with
[00:33:11] multi-sport thing with my son. He did swimming after cross country and then when he got to soccer.
[00:33:19] Like he started the coach wasn't playing it. But at practice this this coach was taken weeks to
[00:33:26] try to condition the other player. But here he'd be out there just running circles around people
[00:33:32] because he just got off of cross country followed by swim season followed by now at soccer season.
[00:33:38] You're just running around on some grass. You know, so he for him it was nothing and I I remember
[00:33:45] after like three or four games of watching the coach just bypass him. I kind of pulled the
[00:33:51] coach to the side after practice and I said, hey, I said, is there anything I should be working
[00:33:56] with Harry on so he can get more game time? And he just said, well, I don't like single player.
[00:34:05] You know, he said, I want soccer players. Harry's too distracted with other sports.
[00:34:12] And I was just like, really, you know, I said, I'd deal with a lot of coaches
[00:34:20] on pretty high levels. And I said, I've never known a coach to not want an athlete on the team.
[00:34:31] I'm like, this this kids and athlete and athlete as opposed to a sport specific.
[00:34:37] Yeah, I'm trick going triponi. Yeah. And so yeah, right then I just kind of told Harry, like,
[00:34:44] I don't think soccer's your thing. So he went into track and, you know, did cross country track and
[00:34:52] slam four years, even though he didn't like it, you know, still did it. And then, you know,
[00:34:57] ended up going to college to run and and still gets awesome grades and runs and does all that stuff.
[00:35:03] And he's kind of like like I was, but a little bit later, he's like now getting into his
[00:35:09] into his body to where Andy's also hit a new gear of competitiveness, which is really cool to see,
[00:35:17] because I hit that way earlier, you know, I would get probably what held me back athletically as I
[00:35:23] would get really pissed off. You know, it's like once I started to compete, I hadn't ever been taught
[00:35:30] the management of like, you know, raging out when you, like made a bad play or through an
[00:35:36] interception or something. And that that actually transpired all the way into my archery career and then
[00:35:41] luckily um, an Olympic coach like helped that. That was a big turning point in my career like in my
[00:35:48] 20s when I got taught like how to get, you know, how to not let the arrows in my quiver that haven't been
[00:35:55] shot yet be affected by the ones that already have and that you can't get back, you know, that's kind of how
[00:36:01] it was put to me. So that really helped, but in high school, I think by the time I hit, you know,
[00:36:09] junior and senior year, I just started to, I just started to feel way more confident in what I was doing
[00:36:15] and, you know, size wise, you know, I was a totally different person than what I was.
[00:36:23] So what ended up being like the sport football for sure? Yeah, football was was the sport and for me,
[00:36:31] I've always struggled with sleep, you know, I've always just, you know, been in and saw him the
[00:36:37] act. And I also, one of the things that kept me awake was knowing if someone else was like
[00:36:44] having more time to train than me. So, you know, I was welcomed by world. Yeah, so I was like in high school
[00:36:53] by my senior year, you know, I was like substituting any non-elective class that I had or all my
[00:36:59] study halls for like, extra gym. So I'd go to like 4 gym classes and then I had my, my football coach gave
[00:37:07] me a key to the gymnasium. So when I couldn't sleep at night and my mom would be gone, you know,
[00:37:15] I was home, I was home alone a lot, you know, I had my mom would just sign a checkbook for me to like
[00:37:21] order Domino's, you know. And whenever I woke up, I'd go to the high school, go in there and I had,
[00:37:28] you know, my coach gave me this huge bag of footballs when I was a sophomore and just said like
[00:37:33] these are years until you graduate. And so I'd just go to the gym and I'd pull the laundry baskets,
[00:37:39] you know, out of the locker rooms. And I'd just throw, you know, from corner to the gym to corner the
[00:37:45] gym, I'd just run like three step drills and just like run 73 passes into those or then into garbage
[00:37:53] cans or then eventually just like throwing into the basketball hoop and then just doing like three
[00:37:58] step drops, five step drops, seven step drops, roll outs and just and then I got to the point where
[00:38:03] it's like I memorized what I needed to do but then I memorized what the line we need to do and then
[00:38:08] you know, like every player on the field, it's like this is, you know, I knew the playbook front and back.
[00:38:14] How good would you say? So, how do you guys do senior year? Horrible, you know, just really
[00:38:22] underperformed at all the camps, we were awesome because it camps. How should you have done?
[00:38:29] I mean, were you from like a week school, a week football school? No. You're from a good football
[00:38:33] school and you guys were just playing shitty. No, you know, it's kind of like, it's kind of like when
[00:38:41] you, I forget what podcasts it was or maybe it's in your book when you were talking about
[00:38:46] three buds, there were the two teams of the two different boats. You know, I remember like one of the
[00:38:53] saying, my football coach always would have, he'd be like, you know, bring the boat in, you know,
[00:38:58] he always would say like the boats lost, he's like a geor job to bring the boat in, you know,
[00:39:03] and he was like, you're job-meaning you, yeah, because you're the quarterback. Yeah, I was responsible
[00:39:09] for every mistake we made. You know, if we screwed around and practiced to get shut off early,
[00:39:14] he would, he would like pull me back and tell me like, you're going to run laps for
[00:39:20] every person here that screwed off today and today there was, you know, we freaking,
[00:39:25] 46 minutes early, we quit practice. I want 46 laps, you know, it'd be like stuff like that.
[00:39:31] But we had a small group of people for like seven on seven camps that were at all the, they were
[00:39:37] at all the camps. They, I would call them and say, let's go practice. But there was, and we, at seven
[00:39:45] on seven, we were great. But there was, you know, four other people that weren't being included,
[00:39:53] and then the entire defense. So we were just, we had really good pieces, but nothing ever, like
[00:40:02] flowed as a team. Did you, did you do good enough? Did you get looked at by colleges?
[00:40:07] Yeah, I think the first college, I think the first college that looked at me was ball state when I was
[00:40:13] a sophomore. I remember at the end of my sophomore year, I went to ball state with my mom,
[00:40:17] and that was like that litter totally different fire, because then I realized like, you know,
[00:40:23] I'm going to go somewhere. And so, you know, my dad, even though my parents were split,
[00:40:32] my dad was at every freaking game. And he was quite a ways, you know, he kind of moved to a different
[00:40:37] town. But he came to every game. And yeah, I mean, my life was sport,
[00:40:45] sport, and training. I mean, I loved lifting, I camped in the summertime. It was every football
[00:40:53] camp I could sign up for. And honestly, my mom's like, you know, she was so, you know, involved with
[00:41:01] her position at backster to where she's like, yeah, if you want to, you know, go somewhere for
[00:41:07] a month in the summer, do it, you know, because I think she probably just, you know, was
[00:41:11] managing plants and Puerto Rico or Singapore or wherever the heck, you know, she was for her
[00:41:17] job. So, I just, I did not miss an opportunity to like go to a camp or something like that.
[00:41:25] So did you actually get recruited to go in your senior year to go to college?
[00:41:28] Yeah, yeah, there was several. And I ended up choosing, I wanted to go back. My dad was moving
[00:41:35] back to North Carolina. My uncle was in North Carolina. And one of the coaches at Western Carolina
[00:41:44] played with my dad and, you know, we ended up going out there. And it was kind of a decision that I
[00:41:52] would be close to the Dudley family, out that way. And I liked the idea of like getting,
[00:41:58] honestly, I never really felt like that town was home, you know, and maybe it's because, like,
[00:42:06] you know, my parents were kind of always split. I saw my mom limited, you know, when she wasn't
[00:42:12] traveling. But we, like, we traveled away from like me and my mom were together more when we go
[00:42:18] places. Because she'd say, hey, you know, I've got a, I've got a meeting in Salt Lake for two days.
[00:42:24] Do you want to come with me? And I'd say, oh, can I go to, I've been wanting to check out snowbird.
[00:42:29] And she's just like, yeah, you know, so we'd fly out there. And she'd say, the bus will pick you up in
[00:42:34] the morning and seven and they'll bring you back to, you know, just make sure you're back here.
[00:42:38] This time, so I just go up and then I started, you know, skiing, shred and love skiing,
[00:42:45] worked at a little ski hill up there and skied bumps, like all the time in the, in the winter time.
[00:42:52] And it's cool. So then what happened with college then? So I was going to play football. And
[00:43:02] like the one thing that I haven't talked about was back at age 10 when I was a super punk.
[00:43:11] My uncle and my grandfather got me into like hunting deer when we'd go down to Mississippi.
[00:43:18] We'd go back down there to see family for Thanksgiving. And so, you know, they were like,
[00:43:23] you know, we need to get you out in the woods. And my grandpa was all, you know, creating more
[00:43:28] veteran. And he's like, you know, we need to make a man of you because I'm showing up with freaking
[00:43:34] Tony Hawk haircut and freaking earrings and, you know, stuff like stuff like that. So he's out there,
[00:43:41] you know, making me sit and firing at beds and, you know, just trying to like make a man out of this
[00:43:47] freaking softy that's coming down. And so, you know, like I got into hunting and just loved it.
[00:43:55] Like it was, and honestly, probably because it was hard. And it like took a ton of patience and
[00:44:03] it was very different from being able to just screw off, you know. And so it was, it was the first
[00:44:10] kind of form of competition in a way, just that it took a lot of moving parts to be successful.
[00:44:17] So, you know, when I got my first deer, it was like winning my first trophy, right? I mean,
[00:44:23] I was totally hooked at how freaking awesome it was. And just seeing my family, like, oh my gosh,
[00:44:29] you got a deer, then we ate it and everything, you know, and it was just this thing. So every
[00:44:34] year for Thanksgiving, I was looking forward to going back home and doing that. And I got into bow hunting.
[00:44:39] I think when I was the first year, I hunted with, they gave me, I had a gun and then
[00:44:44] when I was 10, is when I started shooting a bow and bow hunting. So that was once a year, that was
[00:44:54] happening. But then I got a little bit better towards the end of my senior year. I was shooting a
[00:45:01] lot more around home, like I was practicing and stuff a lot because again, I had a lot of free time.
[00:45:07] You know, my mom would be gone. You had no homework. Yeah. No homework. If I wasn't like
[00:45:14] cutting grass, like, you know, through five bucks a long, then that's what I was doing. But I ended up
[00:45:23] driving down this road. I actually had to hurt my knee. So I was, I was, I moved in a college a
[00:45:28] little bit early. And hurt my knee. And then I forget what happened. But I was at home, back by my
[00:45:38] mom's for some reason. I was just driving around on this like a back road. And I think I was coming,
[00:45:45] I think I went to college. Yeah, I was moved in. I moved in and I'm talking like, there a week,
[00:45:52] maybe a week and a half. And you can hurt your knee at some point. Yeah. It's not really able to play.
[00:45:59] Yeah. I thought whatever reason you go back home. Yeah. We did some, we did some like run throughs.
[00:46:04] I know I did some stuff with like, you know, I remember wearing like pants, jersey helmet,
[00:46:10] you know, just doing like dry runs and stuff. But I wasn't, I don't, I never like hit really hit
[00:46:17] helmets, you know, in college. And so as the weekend, I went back and saw my mom. And then I drove,
[00:46:25] I think I went up to the ski hill just to, you know, go up there and say how to people that
[00:46:29] worked up in the summer. And on my way back, I took some back roads back home. And I went by this
[00:46:35] little town called Ringwood. And I saw this sign on the, on the side of the road that just said,
[00:46:41] archery shoot like spray painted on a board and just had an arrow like pointing that way.
[00:46:48] So I went down that road and I'm like, what's this all about, you know,
[00:46:52] yeah, I had my heart. I went down this road. Yes, you did. Yeah. Yes, you did.
[00:46:56] Well, went down the road. And I said, what's this all about? And they're like, oh, we got a, you know,
[00:47:02] 40 target course. And you know, here's how the scoring works on the animal, you know, 3D animal
[00:47:07] targets. I had never seen 3D animal targets. I'd always like shot it, bail's a hay and stuff like that.
[00:47:14] So I went out and freaking halfway through the course. I was out of arrows. I had freaking
[00:47:23] shot the woods down. And I remember leaving the course got my car went back up to Wilmont,
[00:47:31] Wisconsin, which was where the ski hill was, but there's also a Gander Mountain outlet store there,
[00:47:37] went in and bought more arrows like in a rage and went back to finish. Because I didn't want to
[00:47:44] not finish the course. So I bought more arrows to go back to finish by the time I'd like finished
[00:47:49] everything was pretty much done. And they were having the award ceremony and the guys that were
[00:47:55] up on that podium all had these shirts that had like their local shop on the shirt. So I remember
[00:48:03] this was on a Sunday and on Monday morning, like when they, I think they opened it one o'clock,
[00:48:10] but at one o'clock, I was at that shop. Just like, when are those guys coming in that, you know,
[00:48:16] one this weekend and I just started staying in there and watching these people shoot and ask
[00:48:23] questions and I was there a few days just kind of being a stalker. And the owner of the archery shop
[00:48:34] called me to the side said, hey kid, what are you, what are you doing? I said, I'm just, I'm watching.
[00:48:38] I'm watching. And he said, well, come in the back room. I need you for a minute. He took me in the
[00:48:44] back room and he said, I forgot to get this guy's arrows done. He goes to be overbuilt arrows and
[00:48:49] I said, no, sir. He goes, okay, well, here's how you do it. And he said, you know, you're going to
[00:48:56] clean this feather like this. Then you're going to put the glue on it. You put it in this clamp and
[00:49:01] then you stick it down. And he's like, you know, set this timer and then move on to this next jig
[00:49:06] and do a second arrow. And then when you get to the six, you can go back to the first. If the
[00:49:10] timer's gone off, you rotate it. And so I just sat in this room and flesh this guy's arrows.
[00:49:17] And then kind of came out and said, like, I got off, you know. So he came out and gave the guy's arrows.
[00:49:26] The guy just said, all right, do those ones. And he had just this buckets of arrows that
[00:49:33] needed to get done. So I just started flesh and arrows. And then the next day's like,
[00:49:37] give you ever worked on a bow and I said, no, I haven't. And he's like, all right, well, let me show you
[00:49:41] how to change a string and, you know, and then he's like, hey, if you know, if these bows are here
[00:49:46] for maintenance, you know, here's the checklist. You got to, you know, clean these axles. You got a wax
[00:49:51] is stringing and melted in with this and just started showing me. And honestly, after probably
[00:49:58] two weeks of doing that, I ended up telling the guy, I said, hey, am I going to get a page
[00:50:06] change? And he's just like, I remember the guy's name was Mike Donovan, some people in the
[00:50:13] archery industry, like old timers. They still remember him because he was a pretty hard core
[00:50:19] archery manager at the time. But he goes, you can't put value on what I'm teaching you right now.
[00:50:25] I remember, I'm like, no sir, you can't, but I can't put gas in my tank, you know, with experience.
[00:50:32] So he, he's like, I'll give you a four, 10 an hour and I'm just like, oh, yeah, you know, I was
[00:50:39] freaking pumped. And I remember going home to my dad and I went to my dad's a North Carolina
[00:50:47] or what? Well, my dad at that time, I think was, yeah, he was still in Rockford, Illinois. And I
[00:50:53] remember telling my dad, hey, I'm not going to go to college to play ball because I've, you know,
[00:51:05] I've got this archery thing going and it's, it's because it's good. He's like, you know, like,
[00:51:11] that four, 10 an hour I did. Because I remember, you know, again, he's always been super logical
[00:51:18] and he's also like tried to not, he never really told me like, at that point he had never said like,
[00:51:25] what's wrong with you or, you know, that's a terrible decision. But in that instance, he's like,
[00:51:31] I, I really feel like you need to make your own decisions and you need to know like what to do.
[00:51:38] He said, but I have to say, I think this is a terrible decision.
[00:51:45] And I think for my 40th birthday, he wrote me this really long birthday card in like, in there,
[00:51:52] he said he's like, you could have not done a better job of proving me wrong. Because he's like,
[00:52:00] he goes, he goes, I can't believe, I can't believe what you've done in like 22 years type thing,
[00:52:07] you know. Hey, what, when you went to that 3D shoot for the first time on the, on the side of the
[00:52:14] road or whatever, what do you think it, what feeling did you have, what was it that just freaking was like,
[00:52:20] this is it. Uh, yeah, like I listened to Ted Nugent on Rogan and like he gave some crazy
[00:52:28] description of like launching an arrow. It's all poetic and everything. Yeah. What did, is that what you,
[00:52:32] you were just like, no, never had that for me, it was, I couldn't like the fact that I knew
[00:52:42] that that was that showed me how inferior I was with a bow and arrow and I loved hunting.
[00:52:50] And it showed me that there was every person that was in that parking lot was a lot better than me,
[00:52:56] and that was a problem. And, and that 100% was, you know, I had to go to the shop, I had to learn,
[00:53:05] and then it's like, I'm not gonna leave until I beat these guys. These guys that are winning,
[00:53:10] like, I need to beat them. And then once I did that, it was, you know, I remember I, I did really well,
[00:53:18] did well fast, and I remember going to a shoot that was about 45 minutes away to the north,
[00:53:26] and I remember going in there, my name was like written down on a piece of paper that was like
[00:53:32] at this registration desk. And these are rinky-dinks like local shoots, you know? I don't know if like,
[00:53:38] you have like local surf tournaments where it's not like, yeah, yeah. So, I just said, oh, what's up with
[00:53:46] that name you got right there, and they're like, oh, uh, this guy is supposed to be a serious cheater,
[00:53:53] so when he comes, we're gonna send someone out with him. And I go, oh, well that's me, who's coming.
[00:54:03] And wait, so they were thinking this because you had been doing well in the downturn?
[00:54:06] Because I kind of came from nowhere, so these, these people that, that was their thing,
[00:54:13] they're just like, where did this guy come from? Who, who even is he? You know, they'd never
[00:54:17] seen me even at a local club, you know, because I was just nothing, and then when as I always do,
[00:54:24] you know, oh, I'm not good at this, then just like headfirst into the deep in like,
[00:54:30] how many shoot narrows at night, waking up in the morning, shoot narrows, like, you just fall on,
[00:54:34] fall on the session immediately. Yeah. Yeah, like, you know, had to, like sat around after tournaments
[00:54:45] and would like take down courses for places if they'd give me a target, so I'd have another
[00:54:52] target, you know, or, you know, I would freaking cut grass or clean the bottoms of people's boats,
[00:54:59] or whatever, so I could buy another target, and then, you know, I had to have an entire range
[00:55:03] to practice on, and then it just, you know, and then I wanted like a colored target bow, and then it just,
[00:55:10] it's just like, it's me, it's just me, it's who I am all the time, it just, you know, I had to like,
[00:55:16] I had to get good at it, but then there came a point where, um, and actually at that tournament was kind of
[00:55:22] a turning point because this is the cheater one. Yeah, so I went out, did I end up winning that
[00:55:29] tournament and they had someone like writing score, and I said, um, I go, well, that was kind of nice,
[00:55:36] just having someone else keep score. I'm like, hopefully keep score for these other guys that have
[00:55:41] a problem, you know, because it's called like pencil pushing, you know, and they just said, well,
[00:55:46] if you don't want to deal with that, you could always go to Nationals where there's two score
[00:55:50] keepers, and so I'm just like, where's that? So then I went to the National Triple Crown and
[00:55:57] slept in the back of my truck and, you know, shot at that and sucked at it horribly, but then the next
[00:56:05] year, you know, I instead of going like two, I went to all of them, drove to all of them, and just got
[00:56:13] better and got better, and then within like five years, I was at a level that was, you know,
[00:56:19] that I was happy with, but I was also still refining it, you know, just there's, that's what's
[00:56:28] cool about archery is, I think the reason I'm still doing it is because, you know, I still find,
[00:56:36] if I'm not centered, then it shows, so it's hard, like, you're never going to have a perfect
[00:56:41] game to where you can just back away and know that like, okay, that was a Cinderella story I've done,
[00:56:47] because you can go have a perfect round, but then in an hour later, I've seen you have to shoot another
[00:56:54] one, yeah, yep, yep, how do you cheat in archery? Well, I mean, there's just, there's groups where,
[00:57:05] you know, at like a local tournament, they're not going to send a scorekeeper out, so let's just say,
[00:57:11] like, we all went out with our wife. There's definitely people that, you know, they would shoot down
[00:57:16] their in score like an eight, but they just like write a 10. I mean, while like the wives and kids are
[00:57:21] just like not giving a crap about what's going on, but then you just turn in your score card and, you know,
[00:57:27] this, but once you get into like the professional events, there's two people that keep score,
[00:57:35] the majority of the group has to agree on the arrow call, and then if there's ever a divide,
[00:57:43] then you call an official scorekeeper to come and call it, which is kind of a big reason why I liked
[00:57:50] progressing, because once I was shooting like internationally, you know, they had like,
[00:57:57] you couldn't even have an arrow judge that was from your country, so if you, you know, it's like
[00:58:01] if an American needed an arrow call, someone would come over like an official judge from another
[00:58:08] country would come over because obviously now there's teams competing against teams, so,
[00:58:12] you know, these judges had schooling on how to call an arrow and stuff like that. So how does that
[00:58:19] go? Like, you know, I enter the tournament and then what, I just shoot on at my own pace, kind of thing,
[00:58:25] and keep my own score. I think what might be confusing you, I go is like the first tournament
[00:58:30] that he's talking about are just like kind of like local, just going to be like, just going to
[00:58:35] be a festival. It's like going to like a little jiu-jitsu tournament somewhere and there's not like judges.
[00:58:42] You know what I'm saying? Where a jiu-jitsu tournament, like when you have like, I've
[00:58:46] victory, I have an in-house jiu-jitsu tournament, there's no like escalating the call that the point
[00:58:52] keep, you know, your tech, hey man, you lost whatever you did good, someone could be like, oh yeah,
[00:58:56] you know, you're not getting points on that sweep, so these are just like local little tournaments
[00:59:00] where you go out and you score and you're like, you know, my, my eight's pretty close to a 10,
[00:59:05] and I'm going to give it to myself. So there's no one watching, because just you just can't
[00:59:10] you're like on a path through like through this course, to where it's not like golf,
[00:59:16] like professional golf, there'd be like a crowd following like those leaders through that course,
[00:59:22] which in professional archery like that happens. And then once you get into shooting in the finals,
[00:59:28] a lot of times it's like on monitors and everything, so obviously people can see on a big screen,
[00:59:35] where the arrows are landing. So I mean, it probably the same and competitive like rifle and stuff like that.
[00:59:41] Yeah, it's the same in competitive anything. You like really like when you're at a local
[00:59:45] tournament or a weather, it's freaking bowling, you know, like over the line, you know, markets
[00:59:51] zero, they're just having an argument, you know, it's like you can cheat. And then, but then you turn in
[00:59:55] like a score card or something. So when you shoot, you score however many points you, and then you
[01:00:02] write it on a card that you want to the next target. And then you go through a course. Yeah.
[01:00:06] And then you turn in the card. Yeah, it'd be like you play in cribbids with someone at home and
[01:00:10] then I'll send you like, up, I won. They're like, well, wait a minute. Dude, we have to be at least
[01:00:16] even. You're like, no, I'm keeping score like you're so old. Or you go to Vegas and play cribbids,
[01:00:22] just like, you know, everything you're doing is under, you know, amagging the final class type thing.
[01:00:28] So what point did you make the transition? What was it the whole time from like 3D archery to
[01:00:33] target archery? Um, I got I honestly got a little bit bored and 3D archery pretty fast and part of
[01:00:41] the part of what I didn't like about it. There's just, I felt like I was going to the same
[01:00:48] place as all the time because there was I'm trying to think I turned pro and 98. So by like 2003,
[01:00:55] I just felt like I would land know how to get to the shoot without even like,
[01:01:02] wouldn't even need to like look at a map. I'd just know where to go and then you go to these courses
[01:01:07] and it would be like, well, a lot like, you know, we shot big sky together, you know, for the total
[01:01:14] archery challenge and we've shot the same course because it ends in a good place, you know.
[01:01:24] But there's certainly targets that you like you would be like, oh, last year we had the white bunny
[01:01:30] right here, you know. And so it got to the point where it was like that. I was going to places
[01:01:35] around, you know, 26 or 30 weekends a year. I'm traveling to do tournaments and it just felt super
[01:01:44] repetitive and in the end I realized there's probably 10 or 12 people that are fully capable of
[01:01:53] winning like any weekend. But it's almost like if you had that same tournament, you know,
[01:01:59] two consecutive days over and over and over again, there's probably like five that would win it
[01:02:06] differently each of those times. And I don't know, it just came, it just got to be
[01:02:12] stale for me. I got, you know, I just really got bored with that and it got to the point where
[01:02:19] I pretty much had it set in my mind of, I'm a target archer to be a better bow hunter, you know.
[01:02:26] And that was like my mentality is I was just, I could barely be focused by the time the world
[01:02:32] championships rolled around in August. I barely cared because I just wanted to be hunting in September.
[01:02:40] And, you know, that the hunting was always the focus for me and it was like, I almost, I got more
[01:02:46] out of it. So, you know, I just eventually, I did what I needed to do in competitive archery to like
[01:02:53] help me build a platform to where I really wanted to go, which is I've always liked to coach, you know,
[01:03:00] and, and I've always liked really good coaches, you know, I've liked, I'm the type of person where
[01:03:08] I liked coaches that like, honestly that like yelled at me and were like, Paris had coaches,
[01:03:18] we're, you know, Sharon said, that guy just sat there and like, I kind of think I would love that guy.
[01:03:24] You know, if he like grabbed my face mask and he's yelling at me, like, it would make me do better
[01:03:30] on the next play. Whereas now as an adult, I've learned there's certain people where if you did that,
[01:03:38] you're not getting that result. Yeah. Yeah. So, so, so wait a second. So, you're doing the target
[01:03:46] archery thing and then, or sorry, you're doing the 3D thing, then you start doing target archery.
[01:03:52] Like, like, well, well, like, well, at what point are you part of team USA and you're putting on the
[01:03:57] team USA stuff? Dang, man, I don't like have my whole life outlined. So, um, I had retired,
[01:04:04] I, you know, I got sick of it, I retired and I was working at a bow manufacturer, you know,
[01:04:11] didn't go back to that, but at 18, um, you know, I started working for this archery shop,
[01:04:16] didn't like the one on one, experienced that archery shop owner was given people buying new equipment.
[01:04:23] And I was spending a lot of time with people. And so I got called in and he told me, you know,
[01:04:29] hey, do not spend that much time with people and they buy new gear. If they go over 15 minutes,
[01:04:36] they need to be paying coaching time per hour. And I just said, well, this, you know, no one was in the
[01:04:42] shop and I didn't have anything else to do. Why wouldn't we help this guy out? And I remember he said,
[01:04:48] well, if you want to run a business that way, then you need to go start your own archery shop.
[01:04:56] So I just thought, okay. And so I went and started my own archery shop, um, about 45 miles away
[01:05:03] at it was actually my family had a, had a horse ranch and Southern Wisconsin at the time, my mom and my sister.
[01:05:10] So I ended up building a pole building there and start my own shop. And that was the same time. I started
[01:05:16] shooting professionally. And then got offered a job from a bow manufacturer to move to northern Wisconsin
[01:05:24] to, you know, come in as like an early sales rep. So I ended up working for this bow company and competing.
[01:05:32] So I mean, my life was archery. Archery 20 hours a day. And then I kind of got burned out with it. And I found
[01:05:42] myself liking going fishing or going hunting or just doing something that wasn't like training,
[01:05:48] training, training for archery. And then I had retired for like a few months and retired from.
[01:05:56] I kind of just said, I'm not going to shoot professionally anymore. And I just stepped away. And I was
[01:06:01] doing some coaching. And like I was doing a lot for some different like youth camps and stuff.
[01:06:08] And I remember seeing another archer at like at a trade show. And he said something about,
[01:06:19] you know, I heard you're not shooting anymore. And I just said, yeah, I got, you know, bored with it.
[01:06:23] And I kind of just jokingly said, you know, maybe I'll come over to target archery. Just 3D
[01:06:29] archery is all like foam animal targets with molded in scoring rings, ranging from, you know,
[01:06:36] the size of a dime, you know, up to like what would be considered just the vitals, which would be bigger.
[01:06:43] But then target like a dinner plate size. Yeah. But then for target archery, there's several
[01:06:48] different formats. And that's bulls eyes, you know, with scoring rings. But a lot of different
[01:06:54] games to play, right, you know, there's tons of different formats of shooting at a bull's
[01:06:59] I target different distances. Some, you don't know the distance. You have to estimate it. Some have
[01:07:05] like multiple size faces, some are certain amount of arrows at this distance, certain amount of
[01:07:10] that distance at this. But anyway, I said to this guy, yeah, maybe I'll just, I don't know,
[01:07:17] maybe I should just try target archery. And I remember, he looked at me because, come on in the
[01:07:23] water's fine. Oh, thank you. Last week. And that was it. I was like, okay, wins the first tournament.
[01:07:32] And the first, he told me the first tournament was at the Arizona Cup in at the Ben Avery.
[01:07:40] Did you ever shoot the Ben Avery Center in Arizona? So that was the first one and ended up,
[01:07:48] ended up in the metal, you know, gold metal match with that guy at that event. With that guy,
[01:07:53] with that guy in your first event. Yeah, that one. And I showed up like everything I had was wrong
[01:08:02] because, you know, there's, I don't know how to describe it. It'd be like if you did, you know,
[01:08:09] tactical, you know, tactical competition and then someone will ask you to go to a sniper event
[01:08:15] and then you like showed up with your M4 or something. You know, I don't know. No, it's, it's mission
[01:08:19] specific. Yeah. They're both archery, but one of them has like you're standing around. You got
[01:08:25] more time to shoot or whatever. Last time to shoot. Yours gear's going to be different to
[01:08:29] homeland yards. Yeah. So I remember right before that metal match. And as it happened, I was
[01:08:38] low in the brackets. He was, you know, very high in the brackets, but we were on opposite ends of
[01:08:42] the brackets. And so at this center, you know, there's, you know, let's say it's 100 yards wide.
[01:08:50] I was like at this end and he was at that end. And as you shoot against someone and go through
[01:08:56] the brackets, he just come to the middle. So like when I won my semi-final match, I remember like
[01:09:03] looking over and I saw that he won. I'm like, okay, here we go. And he comes over and he said,
[01:09:09] man, he's like, how, he's, he's said, how, how you deal with it? And I said, dealing with what? And
[01:09:17] he said, well, I've won this nine times and, you know, everyone wants me to lose and he said, so I
[01:09:24] can imagine like, you know, the pressure you're feeling, you know, being that guy. And I said,
[01:09:30] man, I, I see it the other way. And he goes, what do you mean? I said, do you know, I'm out here,
[01:09:36] my equipment's a joke. I said, I'm out here. I'm a 3D shooter. I got the wrong freaking bow. I got the
[01:09:42] wrong arrows. Never even shot this far. And I said, and I'm getting ready to roll up on you.
[01:09:49] And I said, and I'm like, you want to nine times. And honestly, I could see like that was, you know,
[01:09:57] that cracked and I ended up getting the gold medal there. Oh, you, so the person you wanted.
[01:10:03] Yeah, that's freaking nuts. So then I guess that pretty much kicked off your target archery.
[01:10:10] Yeah, yeah. So we, um, and there was a lot of, like, that kicked off my target archery. So I did one
[01:10:16] type, then I did another type. And then I went into field archery, which is my favorite.
[01:10:21] It's kind of like the tack, but with with different size bull's eyes and granted, you know,
[01:10:28] in the pro class, these guys aren't missing. It's like, you need perfect scores. You know, you really do.
[01:10:34] And I went to this field, um, this field tournament and just sucked at it because half of it is
[01:10:42] marked. The other half is unmarked. So you unmarked, meaning unknown distance, unknown distance,
[01:10:48] which in archery is a problem if you don't know the distance, because your arrow is what
[01:10:52] waste lower than a bullet. So, um, I wasn't good at it and ended up buying myself an entire field
[01:10:59] round and like, you know, reading up on, you know, target faces and then ended up figuring out a
[01:11:07] mathematical formula to estimate distances using, like, the circles in my scope and the circles of the
[01:11:14] bull's eye. So I'd like frame the side of my scope to the edge of the target and then I memorized where
[01:11:22] my center dot would be based on the rings and just memorized, engaging a distance, gauging formula,
[01:11:31] which is what everybody does, but most people keep it secretive on how, you know, what their system is.
[01:11:37] But because of the targets, they're all regulation and they have to be the same size you can figure it out.
[01:11:43] So then, um, I got good at that, you know, and, and that was kind of my favorite and then, you know,
[01:11:49] made a team, made a U.S. team and then went over and competed. I think my first international
[01:11:56] term, it was in Croatia and, you know, freaking just loved, metal there and, you know, loved, freaking
[01:12:05] when they pulled that American flag up and like, you got to hear your anthem, it was just like,
[01:12:11] okay, this is freaking, this is awesome. And so how long did that career run for?
[01:12:17] That career ran until the archery world archery decided to do a world cup and they decided to make the
[01:12:27] world cup, um, so at the world cup, I think only two at the year. At the time, it was maybe two or three
[01:12:35] archers, you had to be on a team, um, which shoot in the world cups, but whoever the finalists,
[01:12:42] the top four were at the end of the world cup, then you had to go to the world cup finals,
[01:12:48] which was like a big thing. And they decided to add one tournament and move the world cup
[01:12:55] finals. It was like September 15th this year. And so I remember, um, world archery telling me,
[01:13:06] you know, hey, if you're going to shoot on the world cup team, you have to give us the commitment
[01:13:12] that you will not only do all four world cups, but if you make the world cup final that you
[01:13:17] also participate in the world cup final, otherwise we're going to find someone that will, you know,
[01:13:24] because we don't want to like end up making a final and then someone don't can't get off work or
[01:13:29] whatever. And so I, you know, as in September, I just said, I am not competing in archery in September.
[01:13:34] And for everyone that doesn't know, September is freaking prime, that's something. Yeah.
[01:13:40] That's when you, you're only thinking about, you're thinking about one thing and one thing.
[01:13:44] Yes, just freaking hunting. That's it. That's it. And so you kind of walked. Yeah, I walked.
[01:13:53] Now, and I walked for, I walked from there and then, you know, I ended up business wise,
[01:14:01] started consulting, went out on my own, started consulting, you know, started a family,
[01:14:07] sharing an eye, you know, it was like I wanted to be home more. A lot more people could come to me,
[01:14:13] you know, for coaching and stuff. I was, I was coaching around the world at that time.
[01:14:20] But yeah, just, you know, life changes. You become, you know, close to 30. It's just, you know, I didn't.
[01:14:29] I just didn't see the future that I wanted just being a target archer my whole life.
[01:14:36] You know, and I think, you know, we talked about this. I think some fighters are in that same
[01:14:40] position of like, yeah, you love it. And, you know, you can go when like fight of the night and you
[01:14:47] could make a pretty good paycheck for that time. But the reality is like, your one or two fights a year
[01:14:54] that you're going to make a paycheck at, they're going to make 98% of the rest of your life,
[01:15:00] not as, you know, not what you could make for it if you had a different focus. So, you know,
[01:15:07] I just, I just focused on something else. Now, from a business perspective, did you have the
[01:15:15] vision of like knock on archery? Because essentially what you do is freaking give away an incredible
[01:15:25] amount of knowledge and information and instruction. That's what you do. That did you know from
[01:15:30] the beginning, hey, listen, if I just give this stuff away, then people will, you know, want,
[01:15:36] want to buy some of the stuff that I recommend. You lie some of the equipment that I make.
[01:15:40] Is that did you have that vision or did it just start to happen?
[01:15:45] It's hard to say if I was in a different position than if I would have felt that way. Because
[01:15:50] I don't feel like I'm greedy. I feel like the better I do for myself and other avenues of life,
[01:15:58] the more I can give back to my sport and I want to because, you know, I feel like, hey, I'm
[01:16:04] doing fine. You know, and I want to help other people be better. But the truth of the matter is,
[01:16:09] you know, when you're in your 20s, making 30 grand a year or 50 grand a year, your job,
[01:16:16] and you're trying to go to tournaments to win an extra 10 on the weekend and you're just putting
[01:16:22] a lot of time in and you're shooting 20 to 30,000 arrows, you know, a year,
[01:16:29] and living out of, you know, sharing rooms with people and stuff like that. Like, there's a lot of
[01:16:34] stepping stones that have to, there's a lot of sacrifices you make before it gets to the point where
[01:16:39] it's like, you know, you could offer all that for free. But once the community and by that,
[01:16:50] I mean, you know, I refer to them as the knock on nation. Once we had a pedestal to where we were
[01:16:57] able to deliver out information and our community came in and started supporting that initiative,
[01:17:05] then it allows me, you know, the more people support like either things that we offer at the
[01:17:13] store or let's say I do a training series and there's a training series that helps someone do better,
[01:17:22] but maybe there's a product that we have as our business. You know, that'll be in there and I know
[01:17:27] not everyone's going to buy it. But if someone does, you know, if they really like that series
[01:17:33] and it was worth, you know, a hundred bucks to them, I would rather than sit in them paying
[01:17:38] that subscription to like support us with, you know, a product that we have that I personally believe
[01:17:46] in for that particular thing. Now everyone has their preference, but I don't think I could have
[01:17:52] done it that way to begin with even though when I was kind of hustling and doing what I could
[01:17:59] to like, you know, build, I would always go and do youth camps or go do Christian camps and do
[01:18:07] stuff like that for free. Like I always did that. I always worked with, you know, the kids after
[01:18:12] the tournament or, you know, it kind of got to the point where I told sponsors, especially when I
[01:18:21] went out and I was kind of consulting, I told sponsors, I would like to travel through Europe
[01:18:27] and go to every archery club and do a seminar. But, you know, I can't pay for it myself. Would you,
[01:18:35] you know, would you like to be the one that sponsors the event in Doosal Dwarf, you know, and if so
[01:18:42] send me 25 of your hats and some keychains or whatever and that's what we'll put on everyone's
[01:18:47] seat that, you know, that comes. And so we just do these tours where I'd have magazine editors
[01:18:53] drive me all around Europe and every day was a different stop, you know, just kind of like a band.
[01:19:00] Every day was a different archery club, stop, teach archery and then, you know, do it. In the end,
[01:19:07] I made something more because, you know, the sponsors were paying something and, you know,
[01:19:14] getting some exposure from it and then I also did a lot of writing. You know, I did a lot of
[01:19:19] a lot of written coaching first because like getting your foot in the door when you don't
[01:19:26] technically have like a name for yourself yet is a little bit of a struggle. But I saw a lot of
[01:19:33] magazines needing fresh content and so, you know, I just started writing. So, from like
[01:19:40] 2000, I would say from 2005 to probably 2000, 12 or 14, I wrote for like seven different languages.
[01:19:55] I'd probably do about 250 pages a year just in articles and honestly, my thing was I'd send
[01:20:03] these articles out. I didn't really make hardly anything off any of the articles. I just always
[01:20:09] made sure that they used my photo content so that, you know, I was able to give exposure to the
[01:20:15] brands that I represented and so, you know, it's just kind of like the perfect storm of having
[01:20:22] enough support to where I could grow into where I wanted to be and then, you know, then eventually
[01:20:29] like knock on knock on's like evolved. Originally, it was a TV show, it was just a hunting show,
[01:20:36] but it was a hunting show that I was very focused on having educational portions. I didn't
[01:20:41] like be role in hunting shows, you know, I didn't. I always thought there needs to be more
[01:20:47] education and how to and why was this hunt successful or here's the equipment that I'm taking on
[01:20:54] this hunt, you know, I changed arrows or changed broadheads, here's the why, you know, here's
[01:20:59] different mistakes you can make as a bow hunter for shooting technique. So, that kind of gave us
[01:21:05] the platform to create a name for ourselves and then obviously, you know, we've just continually built
[01:21:13] we meaning I've only ever done the content, the brand was always sharing, you know, the brand
[01:21:19] and, you know, knock on archery.com has always been sharing, where is, you know, I really don't like
[01:21:27] that side of things, I just really want to like, I want to teach people from my experience of
[01:21:33] whatever's happening at the moment. How the TV show come about? The TV show came because
[01:21:42] one of the companies that I worked for was an archery company and so each year they would pick a
[01:21:50] a certain demographic and tell me to focus my initiatives there to grow the brand and that
[01:21:56] demographic. So, one time it was, you know, South Africa, another time it was like Germany,
[01:22:04] another time it was Australia but it came around to Canada and so I went up and talked to a lot of
[01:22:09] shops up there and said, you know, hey, what do you guys think about doing like a seminar tour like
[01:22:15] what was working for me and other demographics? Because over there, people were jumping on that
[01:22:21] because no one would travel over there to do that. Maybe it's like that, what you just see,
[01:22:25] if a, if a reputable coach travels to somewhere where they're never going to see that person,
[01:22:30] they, it'll sell out, you know, for sure. Versus in Canada, they said, at the time,
[01:22:36] Canada just got their first outdoor TV network, which was called Wild TV and they had hunting
[01:22:42] shows but most of their shows were shows that we had watched here five, 10 years ago and it was just
[01:22:49] all the shows domestically were sent in all their repeats up there and just like, you know, just
[01:22:53] kind of rebranding. But then also like selling that airtime to their sponsors here like, yeah,
[01:23:00] we're also airing, you know, 10 times a week in Canada for this or that. So when I was up there,
[01:23:08] the shop said, well, I mean, we would love to get like super technical seminars but what brings
[01:23:17] people in the doors when the hunting shows come. Like if, if you're on a hunting show,
[01:23:21] there, if you're on Wild TV, we'll freaking pack the store. So I remember going back to my boss
[01:23:28] at the time who actually works for us now and I told him I said, well, they really said to get
[01:23:34] the foot in the door like, we need to be, I need to be a show and I had already done DVDs that were like,
[01:23:41] you know, kind of out of the, the trunk of your car DVDs that I thought were a little bit of
[01:23:48] head of their time because I always said that like I wanted our hunting show to be like hunting,
[01:23:56] kind of crashed with MTV cribs, crashed with like Robin Big. And so like our first DVDs,
[01:24:06] that's what they were. And so they were to like way faster pace music and like way different editing
[01:24:12] than kind of like the band you put those on YouTube. I haven't, I need to get you one of those DVDs.
[01:24:17] How can we go put them on YouTube on your YouTube channel? People are going to be amped to watch it now.
[01:24:23] Maybe that I mean, looking bad, be like you watching yourself on video 10 years ago, you'd be like,
[01:24:29] man was I horrible. Well, you at least got to have some fun with it and put them on. Oh, yeah,
[01:24:34] I mean, for that haircut you posted. Prince Valkyrie, the kind of guy. That was freaking awesome.
[01:24:43] Bro, it was 1977. That was what was happening. And I didn't, I don't think I even have. I don't think,
[01:24:49] I don't even think I thought, you know what I'm saying? I didn't think I thought about like a haircut.
[01:24:54] I think it was just, you know, my mom would come in with a pair of scissors. You know, done.
[01:24:59] Like I wasn't like, do I need hair? I still have a minute. Yeah. Do I need to get a haircut? Do I not
[01:25:04] need to get a haircut? She's just like, that's, it was like, that's what's happening, right? You don't have
[01:25:08] any choice in the matter. And didn't care about it one way that I still barely care. I feel like
[01:25:13] when we post this podcast, we need to put a thing in there that says like, unless you're
[01:25:17] to work about our tree fast forward to like the hair moment. Because me talking about my past to
[01:25:26] me seems like, I don't know, I'd weigh rather. What I remember about you, the most is like,
[01:25:32] how hard we laugh at stuff. And you know, it's such a different side than, you know,
[01:25:39] kind of like at the beginning of the thing when you're reading your socials and awesome at that,
[01:25:45] like you're the perfect person to like do voice over work. But I also know like any given second,
[01:25:52] if it was just the two of us, you could drop a one liner in there that would freaking bust people up in
[01:25:58] here. Yeah, I definitely, I mean, that's, bro, yeah, you're right. Any of this stuff. It's like,
[01:26:05] you have a fun while you're doing it. It's not fun to do. Then why are you doing it? Yeah,
[01:26:10] I will say though, like I like to have fun. You like to have fun, but man, it's legit. When you go into
[01:26:14] like Kilmode on a hunt, it's freaking out. I'm like, oh, yeah, here it is. Because you go into just like
[01:26:21] boom, like I could, I just see I'm like, okay, I gotta hang on because he's freaking, he's going. And
[01:26:26] it's legit, man. Well, I think that same thing that's just inside, it's dormant and I'm pretty,
[01:26:33] I'm pretty like Loki and Dossel most of the time. I feel like that's how I am naturally, but then
[01:26:43] certain things like that when that moment triggers and it's like a game face, that's kind of what
[01:26:50] happened when I recognized like I wasn't good at archery. You know, I realized like, you know,
[01:26:56] I just, it's like hyper focused and it gets that way with my training too. If I know I'm not
[01:27:05] up to par, I get very hyper focused on just getting better and training and I can kind of just go
[01:27:13] over the deep, you know, I can either be all in or totally out, which is kind of like for
[01:27:19] Matargetartary point of view, people ask me why I don't compete. I don't have, like I don't have
[01:27:25] a drive to compete. That's not to say if for some reason I, you know, did it accidentally and
[01:27:32] I would get fired up again. Oh no, I've seen you do that. I've seen you that where we're walking
[01:27:37] down the tack and all of a sudden someone's like, hey, dud, I bet I can do this. I bet I can hit that.
[01:27:43] You're like, same thing. I'll see your face and I'm like, oh, he's about to just 12,
[01:27:47] bring this thing, you know, because you get in that competitive mode that happens. You know what,
[01:27:52] I wanted to come back to and, and hey, the reason why I think this stuff is interesting. Look,
[01:27:56] I don't think you have to be interested in archery because your, your path in life was not normal,
[01:28:03] right? And people look, you could have been talking about someone that was into spearfishing or someone
[01:28:07] that was into jiu-jitsu or someone that was into anything to go down the path like you did and
[01:28:14] forge your own way ahead and make a life for yourself based on doing something that you loved.
[01:28:19] People could apply that in any category, whether you're into knitting or whether you're into freaking
[01:28:25] bowling, it doesn't matter. So there's some real application. I guess I should have said that the
[01:28:30] beginning, hey, if you're thinking about the way your life looks, especially if you're 20 years old or
[01:28:35] 25 years old and you're kind of like, well, I'm doing this, but I don't like it. I mean,
[01:28:38] here you are, like, going to college, but I don't really want to do that, you know? Yeah.
[01:28:41] Hey, and you've done that multiple times, 3D archery, totally into, oh, guess what? I'm not
[01:28:45] really into it that much into it anymore. Okay, I'm going to do something else. Go to target
[01:28:49] archery. Okay. I'm really into that for a while. I guess what? It's interfering with my
[01:28:52] hunting. Not going to do that anymore. Now I'm going to focus on hunting. I'm going to focus on building
[01:28:55] this brand. I'm going to focus on creating new products. So all that stuff, it may seem mundane to you
[01:29:01] looking back at it, but for a normal person that can take this and apply it to, you know,
[01:29:08] building something, creating something, it's like you've done well, not just from an archery perspective,
[01:29:14] but a business perspective, in, at the same time. So it's real lessons. One of the lessons I
[01:29:20] wanted to come back to, because we kind of drifted over it, but when you were talking about,
[01:29:25] as somewhere along the way, you realized that you could like freaking rage doesn't help, right?
[01:29:32] Rage doesn't help, and you said you had a coach that was like, hey, listen,
[01:29:36] the arrows that you shot, and this is such an important, again, this is a life lesson, and
[01:29:40] there's all kinds of things that tie into life and archery, but the life lesson is like, hey,
[01:29:45] you shot that arrow and you freaking shanked it, right? You can blow your next eight arrows,
[01:29:51] like you can just send them all out the freaking, you know, into a tree somewhere, or you can just be like,
[01:29:56] okay, that didn't, doesn't matter. Can't change it, move forward. What was that lesson like,
[01:30:02] who taught it to you? An Olympic arch, an Olympic archery coach who I'm pretty sure was also a
[01:30:09] Marine, I mean, straight up Marine haircut all the time, but he coached a couple, a couple,
[01:30:16] super high-level archers, but he was also like, he didn't coach very many people, and he was also,
[01:30:23] you know, very, I don't know, he was very like stone, you know, so you knew if he was there,
[01:30:31] he was there watching his few athletes, and they like would pay for him to come and stuff like that,
[01:30:39] but I remember one time I was in a leading group, we got peer grouped, and then the second day,
[01:30:47] you know, like ranks 1, 2, 3 and 4 together on the target, you know, in the shoot through, and then it
[01:30:53] kind of came down to the last target, and you know, I needed a 12 or something to make it into the
[01:31:00] shoot off, you know, into the top 6, and I missed, you know, and I was freaking pissed about, you know,
[01:31:09] like broke my stabilizer over my knee and freaking hammer tossed my bow through the woods type thing,
[01:31:15] and, you know, ended up coming back, like with my bow, just kind of seeing the damage I did,
[01:31:21] and he came over to me, his name was Tim Strickland, and he said, you know, you could be an amazing
[01:31:32] archer, but he said, until you start not letting the arrow that you shoot affect the ones that are
[01:31:39] still in your quiver, you never will, and he said, he goes, do you know a way to get an arrow back once
[01:31:45] it's left your bow, and I said, what do you mean he goes, do you know a way to get it back other
[01:31:50] than to physically go down there and pull it out of the target like you just did, and I said no
[01:31:53] sir, and he said, well, once it's gone, it's gone, and he said, so if you make one mistake,
[01:32:02] don't make the same mistake for every arrow that's left in your quiver, you know, make one,
[01:32:09] pull it, you know, pull that arrow out, throw it away, whatever you want, but there's other
[01:32:14] arrows in the quiver that are capable of doing what you want them to do, and so there's been
[01:32:21] tournaments where I've, you know, I've actually talked, you know, where I will freaking make a bad
[01:32:26] shot, and then just look down on my quiver and be like, do any of you sons of bitches want to
[01:32:30] go in the tenoring because that guy didn't, and you know, and it was just like a totally different
[01:32:36] approach and mentally, it honestly helped me, this was a, it's kind of a weird thing to say,
[01:32:49] but, you know, he told me said, you won't figure out how to win until you learn how to lose,
[01:32:57] and that was, you know, I was like the rage of losing was overpowering my ability to perform at
[01:33:05] my best because I was letting, you know, I was letting those things happen, and then I remember
[01:33:10] kind of wanting to get into that a little more, and I read some kind of a sports psychology
[01:33:16] book, you know, I don't know what it was called, but it said something in there that
[01:33:21] this sports psychologist had talked to like, he worked with a lot of high-level pictures,
[01:33:28] and he told him that part of their success was that they had to be able to accept that there was
[01:33:34] going to be an empire that would, they needed to expect two to three bad calls by the
[01:33:40] empire, every game, and when they got a call that they didn't think was right, they could just
[01:33:47] check it off the list of okay, well, there was one of them, and so I started doing that too,
[01:33:53] and started saying, okay, when I go to an international event because there are certainly
[01:33:59] our judges that call them really, really tight, you know, and they're all looking at them with
[01:34:06] the magnifying glass, but they're some like when you'll say like judge, and then, you know,
[01:34:13] some dude comes over that isn't a tour, like if that, you know, when they do the random thing of
[01:34:19] like judge, so and so go pull it, and then you see him, you're like, it's out.
[01:34:23] Because some of them, you just think like, they think like if they can't figure it out themselves,
[01:34:30] I'm just going to go over there and look around at it, but I'm calling it out, and then there'd
[01:34:33] be some like, oh yeah, I got a chance with this guy, like, you know, hey, Susie, how you doing today?
[01:34:39] Yeah. But yeah, learning that, you know, learning how to lose, because I've lost way
[01:34:47] more than I've won, and that's a fact, you know, you have to figure out a way to win in life,
[01:34:55] you know, you do have to figure out a way to win, but if you deal with like being a hyper-competitive,
[01:35:04] then you also have to learn how to lose, otherwise you freaking derail yourself, way more than
[01:35:11] others can derail you, and I'm convinced that I beat myself way more than other people beat
[01:35:17] me and most of the things that I've lost at, you know, it's like, which is why now my coachings
[01:35:23] involved so much, because now my coaching is so focused on, you know, what you execute within your
[01:35:29] box, because I kind of got to the point where I recognized if I make a good shot, it's a 10,
[01:35:37] that's the highest score on the paper. So if I do that all day, no one's going to beat me,
[01:35:44] we're tied at the end, and if I just keep doing that until tomorrow, then guess what, worst case
[01:35:50] scenario, me and that other guy are still tied, but if I shoot nines, then yeah, the other guy
[01:35:57] is already in advantage. So, you know, if I focus on just execution, and so once I kind of came to
[01:36:04] that realization of no one can beat me if I'm executing, if I make a good shot right here,
[01:36:12] I don't need to see where it lands, because if my site tapes right, and I trust the equipment
[01:36:17] that I've got, I know it's in the middle, like I know that, but I have to execute here, and so
[01:36:23] it really got to the point where I like, I took away my spotting scope to where I wasn't getting
[01:36:28] in the habit of shooting an arrow looking for the result, shooting an arrow looking in a result,
[01:36:34] which is something that even today, when I work with parents, I tell them that there's,
[01:36:41] there's like parents that at an archery tournament, they sit like front row with a spotting scope,
[01:36:47] so the kid will shoot, and then they'll be like 10 at 11 o'clock, and then, you know,
[01:36:53] the kid will shoot and just turn around to like dad to get confirmation of like how that was,
[01:37:00] and so part of the things when you have that type of parent is telling them like, listen,
[01:37:05] this kid, like they need to execute, them looking for you at you for, you know, the result,
[01:37:14] all the time, it just athletes start to lean on their coach so much, and that was actually one of the
[01:37:21] problems with some of the people that had that coach that I talked about. They only did really well
[01:37:28] when he could be there with them, because, you know, he'd be like, all right, hey, you miss that one,
[01:37:34] if those guys, you know, you're good, you're the free, you know, and they had to have that, that
[01:37:40] continual like affirmation, whereas honestly, for my life, I feel like most of it, I was alone,
[01:37:48] you know, in regards to like, I like training alone, you know, honestly, I like archery too,
[01:37:55] because it's a singular sport, so if I train and if I prep, then I'm ready, and it's in my hands,
[01:38:06] same with hunting, you know, same way with hunting. If I, you know, I've had hunts where I've had a lot of
[01:38:10] distractions, and I threw my stuff in a case that, you know, the day before and went and, you know,
[01:38:16] missed a couple shots and was just like, in rage, but then I also thought like, yeah, dude, you didn't
[01:38:21] prep, you didn't know homework, you know, that's what happens. So I feel like, because I've had to
[01:38:27] train that way, and even even when I lift, you know, I love lifting by myself versus like going to
[01:38:34] somewhere where people distract me, I just feel like, you know, I've, I know that if I put in the work,
[01:38:42] then at that point, it's, it's really on me, not on someone else, and like, when I told you,
[01:38:49] we sucked it football, you know, there was a couple people like, you know, like Jason, who knew their role
[01:38:57] and knew their position, and other people's position, and they would cover for people that maybe
[01:39:01] didn't do something right, but there's also three cores of the team that didn't. So in high school,
[01:39:08] what's hard is, I don't feel like anyone really prepped as hard as me in that because I honestly
[01:39:14] like put no effort anywhere else, you know, whereas they probably had lives and maybe, you know,
[01:39:20] actually got good grades and stuff. But I think that's why artre's been so awesome to me is because,
[01:39:29] you know, the harder I've pushed, the harder I've pushed at it and the more I've put into it,
[01:39:34] like, it's not like weightlifting where you plateau, I haven't found a plateau yet, like,
[01:39:40] I can make a target further and I can suck again. Or, you know, you know, there's just
[01:39:46] ore I can try a different species or a different, you know, climate or a different time of year,
[01:39:53] and it's a whole new challenge, like it's a clean slate, and then you're, you know, trying to
[01:39:59] formulate a plan and map out a plan of how do I, you know, how do I, like, win this challenge?
[01:40:06] Or, I was at a, you know, I were at tack the first time we did tack and like I was just
[01:40:14] like feeling pretty good and I'm like, you know, you're like, bro, you're freaking, this is awesome,
[01:40:18] you're doing great and we're getting through the course a little bit and then man,
[01:40:24] then I just, I like hit a branch, right? And it was a little situation where you said step back
[01:40:31] and you meant back behind me, but I thought you meant back away from the target. And so I like
[01:40:38] didn't, it even makes sense to me what you said, so I didn't listen to you, which is a mistake.
[01:40:41] So I just cracked off this round and this thing just freaking just,
[01:40:47] paying into a tree and everyone on that mountain, everyone, like, it sounded like you hit someone's
[01:40:55] like door with a Mac, like with a microphone on the back side, just there.
[01:41:00] And this is what I saw as earlier, you know, you're saying like, hey, you know,
[01:41:04] what somebody grabs me by the face mask and just like, you need to get this shit together right now.
[01:41:07] Like, that's what you want. And then, but like, I've, I've done that, like, when I was in,
[01:41:13] when I was in the, when I was in the seal teams and I was teaching, like, I would be, you know,
[01:41:18] I'd have some guy that I could be like, hey, man, if I freak out in this guy, he's going to freak out.
[01:41:21] And he's going to collapse and break down mentally. And I got someone else where it was like,
[01:41:25] if I don't get their attention, you know, some guy might pull sides to hey, listen man, think about what's
[01:41:29] going on. Another guy in me, but hey, you need to think about what's going on. And you got to figure out what
[01:41:33] methodology you're going to use. Yeah. So what's what's interesting for me is when you're coaching me,
[01:41:39] like, I know what you're doing. I know that I go, oh, he's, he's trying to get me to chill out.
[01:41:44] Because like, on that one, you were like, you're like, hey, man, hit, you hit that limb up there.
[01:41:47] You know, it's just trying to say, but, you know, he said, you know, knocking another one,
[01:41:51] knock the ticket step back, knocking another one. I was like, cool. And I was like, he's just trying to
[01:41:54] get me to chill out. So I don't freak out because I just freaking tea bone to tree. And like, I know
[01:42:00] what you're doing, but as echo Charles says sometimes to me, he knows what I'm doing when I'm talking
[01:42:05] him about stuff. He's like, I know what you're doing. Guess what, still works. Yeah. It still works to be like,
[01:42:10] hey, here's it's going on. Man, just just back off a little bit or do your freaking out. You're not,
[01:42:15] you know how to do this. Like, those kind of coach and also being like, hey, get over here. Like,
[01:42:19] hey, you need to move down. Like, those kind of things are important. So for you as a coach, the way
[01:42:24] you read and I've watched now I've watched you coach a bunch, but like at tack, you'll sit there,
[01:42:28] like we'll sit there at a place at one of the targets and you'll just like watch four or five
[01:42:33] groups shoot. And so I just sit there and watch you coach him, you know, and I'll listen to what you're
[01:42:37] saying. And you, I can tell that you're going, you're reading people, you know, and going, oh,
[01:42:42] this person needs confidence or this person needs to think through needs to slow things down. Or this
[01:42:48] person's getting freaking all all target fixated at the last second and they're cracking around
[01:42:53] off. So you're reading them and then you're applying the right coaching technique to what's
[01:42:57] going on in their head. And that's freaking, that's just like, that's why honestly to me,
[01:43:04] your whole life, the number one thing for me when I look at you is like coach, like that's the
[01:43:08] the highest thing that I look at you. I was like, man, that guy's off. Look, he's a good
[01:43:12] arturer. He's a good hunter. He's a badass athlete, but man, he's a freaking dialed in coach.
[01:43:19] It's what I'm passionate about. Like, especially, you know, with honestly, Rogan
[01:43:26] introduced to me to Andy, like I think was really the thing that started everything down the path of
[01:43:34] now how many military guys that I've been able to get into and gals, get into archery.
[01:43:40] And, you know, I love that because there's so many things that are there, and especially with
[01:43:51] team guys, you know, whether it's, you know, army or, you know, it really doesn't matter.
[01:43:59] But if they've been some type of a team or like special forces, they just, you know,
[01:44:06] they're good students and they're hyper critical of themselves. Now, granted, some of them were like,
[01:44:11] I got this and yeah, once they realized, no, I just made it as to myself, they'll listen.
[01:44:18] But even if they don't listen right there, by the next time they talked to you, they've a hundred
[01:44:22] percent, you know, went crazy about trying to apply that, you know, the work ethic is very,
[01:44:30] it's like the perfect formula for a coach, you know, is all those guys and every, every one of them
[01:44:37] that I've introduced it to so far has needed, has really needed archery as, I don't know, like,
[01:44:47] like you said, it's like a quiet, it's like a quiet form of what you used to do, you know.
[01:44:52] Well, what it is really, tell me it's a new mission. Like you spend your whole life
[01:44:57] with a mission, with like something that you know that you're focused on and then one day you wake up,
[01:45:04] like you retire or you get out, the mission's gone. Like you can't have it anymore and look,
[01:45:09] you can try and hang on onto it and you can try and freaking relive those things in your head,
[01:45:12] but that's not going to be, that's not going to work out because it's not there anymore.
[01:45:17] And that's a shitty reality to face. Like when I had to clean, when I retired and then I went and
[01:45:23] cleaned out my cage and I spent most of my career within like a 300-yard radius, like Seal Team
[01:45:31] 1, Seal Team 3, Seal Team 7, I was at Seal Team 2 in Virginia Beach for a little while, but most of
[01:45:37] it, you could throw a football to everywhere I was. So when I was 19 years old, I was walking up
[01:45:43] the steps of Seal Team 1, fast forward 20, 24 years and I'm 200 yards away, not even, I'm 100 yards
[01:45:50] away, cleaning out my gear locker for the last time. And it's gone and all that, my whole life,
[01:45:56] what everything I cared about, the only thing I ever knew is gone. And look, I look back at it,
[01:46:03] if I can help out in any way and I go talk to the teams, that's cool, but that's not my mission anymore.
[01:46:09] And so this happens to guys and they get out and they don't have a mission anymore. So all of a
[01:46:15] sudden you go, hey man, here's a freaking bow and arrow, it's a primitive tool that you used a
[01:46:21] hunt ship and you can get good at it. And the fundamentals are similar, you know, the fundamentals are
[01:46:29] similar and like when you taught me for the first time Andy was sitting there translating. He's like,
[01:46:35] hey, what he means is frontside focus, hey, what he means is easy, easy, you know, uh, just squeeze the
[01:46:41] trigger. He was translating me for me, military stuff and I was like, oh God, it got it, got it. And,
[01:46:47] you know, Andy, I mean Andy's a good example of him just being like, oh cool, I got a new mission now.
[01:46:52] Here's what I can do. And look, Andy, of course, Andy has a ton of other things going on in his life
[01:46:57] and he's got freaking parachuting in, uh, jiu-jitsu now, he's totally obsessed with jiu-jitsu, which is
[01:47:02] freaking awesome. So people find new mission, but this is a good one. It's a good one because there's so
[01:47:07] many similarities, gear prep, right? When you're in the SEAL teams, you're freaking obsessed with gear
[01:47:12] prep, you're figuring out the best way to carry things, the best way to do things. And you're like,
[01:47:15] okay, I want to be ready for this. I want to be ready for this operation, right? I got to be in
[01:47:20] a good physical shape. I got to be able to like clear my mind when shit's going sideways and be like,
[01:47:26] all right, what's happening right now. So all those things are are so similar and I know that you
[01:47:32] spend, I guess, was Andy the first like vet that you worked with? Probably that, I mean,
[01:47:41] probably not, I guess, but yeah, it was the first one where I was, where I was mentally really ready for that.
[01:47:48] I think I was on a different, like, pole position, like I was at a different stage. And it,
[01:47:53] it honestly, it meant more, you know, I was going to say with Andy, like, Andy, what may have been different
[01:48:00] is that Andy was like, what is that saying about like, when the, when the student is ready, the
[01:48:05] master will appear? Like, I don't know if you could have found someone that was more ready to like,
[01:48:10] pick up this stuff and start going, you know? And so that's probably why it left an impression on you.
[01:48:17] It damn sure left an impression on Andy, because this dude's totally obsessed, you know? So
[01:48:22] and it's awesome. And you know what's funny about it? Well, Andy's freaking hilarious. You want
[01:48:27] it like, yeah, when you talk about like, oh, Jocca, you make some good one minors hanging out. Like,
[01:48:31] I can listen to Andy just all day long. And what's really funny to him to me is like, how he,
[01:48:38] the way he handles, uh, uh, like, mistakes. His, he just hammers himself. He's so freaking hilarious.
[01:48:46] He leaves no room for someone to make front of them. Because if, if you don't fire off within three
[01:48:52] seconds, yeah, yeah, he's freaking classic classic. Yeah. And that's the kind of thing is when, you know,
[01:48:59] when when you go out, it gives you a mission. Now you got your friends with you. You know, now you're like,
[01:49:06] okay, cool. Now we're, and we're doing things like what you do in the seal teams. Guess what? If,
[01:49:11] if Andy and I are on a pistol range and we're shooting together, like, he's going to be making
[01:49:15] for me, right? I'm going to, I'm going to shank some round off or whatever. Need a mag change in the
[01:49:20] middle of what I did need. I'm going to do something stupid. Yeah. And he's going to, it's going to,
[01:49:24] it's going to be fun. And you know what? It's going to make me better. Yeah. It's going to make me better.
[01:49:29] And that's another thing I noticed at tack like the amount of that's that we're up there. Yeah.
[01:49:34] It's freaking awesome. It's awesome. And guys coming up to me and telling me like, bro, you know,
[01:49:41] I started this. I started this. This is what I'm doing. And these are guys that freaking, you know,
[01:49:46] two years ago, whatever when they got out of the Marine Corps after six years or after eight
[01:49:51] years or after 18 years, they didn't have a mission anymore. And now the sun, they're freaking
[01:49:57] jacked up. They got their gear on. They're showed me their freaking range finder and they're pumped,
[01:50:03] man. They're pumped. Yep. And so the fact that you've sort of opened up this opportunity for so many
[01:50:11] guys to start going down the path, it's, man, it's so beneficial to dudes. Yeah, that's freaking awesome.
[01:50:19] And it's, there also comes a point in time where you want to like, I'm fortunate that I can pick
[01:50:24] and choose what I'm doing right now. And so I really want to pick and choose things that's
[01:50:30] rewarding to me. And hopefully that's not, you know, selfish. But there's also like,
[01:50:36] I don't know, there's, there's people that I work with where I know this person could live on
[01:50:43] this planet a lot longer because they have a new focus right now. And, you know, in artories
[01:50:50] change their life totally. And what's cool about it is, you don't have to be in like perfect physical
[01:50:58] shape too. So I mean, there's times where people get into artry and they're kind of a little bit
[01:51:02] lost, you know, maybe, you know, maybe they're not as in shape as they were or whatever. But
[01:51:09] that's what's cool about it. It's, it's not age specific. And it's, you know, if you can pull it back,
[01:51:15] you can do it. And I think the natural progression is you pull it back and, you know, maybe you're
[01:51:21] not good. And then you get a little better. And then, you know, there's a ton of people now that are
[01:51:26] just for a better food source alternative, they're open-minded to hunting if it's, you know, in their
[01:51:33] minds fair chase, which, you know, bow hunting, you know, kind of lowers that boundary for people
[01:51:40] to where they're like, okay, if I'm going to put in all this work and do it, I'm totally cool,
[01:51:45] you know, eating this thing or killing it or whatever. But then once you take that step, you realize,
[01:51:51] oh, this is a whole different kind of hard because now you're dealing with, in my opinion, some
[01:51:58] of the animals are just so much smarter than other things you could roll up on it, murt and, right?
[01:52:05] I mean, they're freaking cute up, you know, because I remember, uh, Andy and I were on something
[01:52:14] where it was, it was, it was a pretty tough, like, yeah, it was kind of a little bit of a miracle
[01:52:20] that we pulled off this stock and jack something I don't know what it was, but I remember saying, like,
[01:52:27] you know, doesn't seem like it'd be that hard to kill a person, he's just like, dude,
[01:52:33] because it is not this hard at all. He's like, he goes, all of us would be, he's like, you know,
[01:52:46] he's like, a lot of us would be, you know, at a totally different level if we had to learn this way first.
[01:52:52] He's like, it, he goes, if, if everyone had this background prior to going into the team,
[01:52:58] he's like, it would be, he would be insane. No, it'd be very beneficial, very beneficial.
[01:53:05] There's so many things that you gotta think about that are the exact same, you know,
[01:53:09] well, with elk, the only thing that's not the same without this smell, like, like,
[01:53:14] and although if you talked to some of the Vietnam guys, they're like, oh, the VC or the NVA would smell you.
[01:53:20] Yeah. And so if you can make it smell like that, and they could smell them, too.
[01:53:23] Yeah. So maybe we need to just account for everything.
[01:53:25] Well, now with dogs, like, what I told Andy was I said, listen, you know, if I knew there was someone
[01:53:31] coming to jack me, you know, I would definitely have at least a dog, you know, I've definitely have
[01:53:37] dogs around, because obviously dogs could smell too. You know, if you train them on something,
[01:53:42] you know, specific type of gear or something like that, it would be an advantage. But I've actually
[01:53:48] talked to, well, one of the guys that we're with tonight, he's actually hooking me up with some of the
[01:53:56] guys that are going to do some of the training down in Lenni for this sniper training.
[01:54:02] They're doing a couple of team things there, and so he had asked me if I wanted to go down just to
[01:54:07] to teach some navigation of like, instead of learning the long distance aspect to like make some
[01:54:16] competitions on the closest shot to where they, you know, to where I would assess their choice of
[01:54:24] that navigation and like what they could do different to where it's like, okay, we know how far you
[01:54:30] can shoot something from now, you know, who can jack something at a guard or whatever, you know.
[01:54:36] Yeah, it's totally different to have to get within, you know, 50 yards to something. That's just
[01:54:43] freaking crazy. It's crazy to think that way. Whereas with a rifle, you know, you can be, I mean,
[01:54:50] at least 500 yards, you can be 500 yards and be like, you know, we're good. I got this.
[01:54:57] So we went surfing yesterday. At least, yeah, we went surfing yesterday. And I was 10
[01:55:04] pause. Well, actually, no, I paused for a second to think to myself, did he surf or not? And the
[01:55:11] fact, the matter is you did surf. You did surf. You paddled on the waves. You caught the waves and you
[01:55:16] stood up. That's why I paused. It's like, wait, did he surf? Yes, you did. You caught multiple waves.
[01:55:21] You paddled into them yourself. And then you stood up and rolled the waves. That's what surfing is.
[01:55:26] So you did, we did surf yesterday. And I know you'd only been one other time, which was, the last time
[01:55:32] you went was was a little bit more. At the pier. Yes, at the pier. And it's a, it's a much more
[01:55:38] forgivable sort of like easier step. Like we were yesterday, that's like you can't push yourself
[01:55:45] into those waves. You can't touch the bottom and be like, oh, I got this. You have to actually
[01:55:49] surf. We're reserved yesterday. You actually have to surf. But when we were, when we were going out,
[01:55:54] who with Josh? And I was sort of like, you know, I'm just going to let Josh. Because like, I,
[01:55:59] I don't want to, I didn't want to be telling you things and Josh telling you things and you're
[01:56:03] sitting there, if we can got two people telling you shit to do and it just too much, right? So I was just
[01:56:07] kind of do, I was just kind of going. And man, as I was going down, there was like,
[01:56:14] before we even got in the water, there was 97 things I wanted to tell you, like, hey, man, you
[01:56:18] got to watch out for this, this thing over here, this path over here, you got to watch here's the line
[01:56:21] up. Here's where the, here's where the, the channels are like, this is where you want to sit. Here's
[01:56:26] what you want to watch. I like, like, I'd 97 before we even got in the water. This before we got in the water.
[01:56:31] And I'm not, you know, if you're at a, at a freaking black belt level in archery, like, I'm not,
[01:56:40] that I'm not at that highest level of surfing. And I was like, man, imagine how many things were going
[01:56:45] through your head. As you're watching me, like a freaking monkey with a damn bow just thinking,
[01:56:53] all right, with a 50 foot surfboard. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it was just like the amount of things that
[01:56:59] that that you don't know about surfing, the amount of things that I don't know about archery and
[01:57:05] about hunting and about scent and about terrain and about the way the freaking animals react to this
[01:57:10] and different animals react a different way. And there's like so much to learn. It's freaking crazy.
[01:57:17] Yeah. It's crazy. It's hard as a coach because a lot of times you forget more than you,
[01:57:24] like you don't know what you should be talking about until you realize like, oh, oh yeah.
[01:57:31] And you gave me like, there was several of those yesterday. Yeah. Like, worst one was what you told me
[01:57:36] when we were on the deck, like watching. We were like watching. You're like, yeah, I meant to tell you
[01:57:42] when you were like, see how all the waves are coming in right there, like off that set. Like,
[01:57:48] that's why Josh and I when we were done, we would go around those to like loop back and he's like,
[01:57:54] you know, you just kept going straight back up the gut. Yeah. And he's like, I was just waiting for
[01:57:58] that board to like freaking T-rex your face. I mean, while I'm like, bro, that would have been
[01:58:05] something like when we were standing up on the top, looking down. If you would have said, like,
[01:58:10] hey, you see how all those waves break like this. So when you get your set and you ride that out,
[01:58:17] you know, looping behind that. So you're not like freaking how does full blown like do a bud's
[01:58:22] training? Oh, there's a sacred moment. Freaking hand freaking like eight minutes. What I've
[01:58:28] done with me, oh, he's an easy in the impact. Oh, just get hammered. But, but you did get up like
[01:58:36] while we were surfing, you know, you did surf and and to me, that's a testament to, you know, like
[01:58:41] being athletic and being being able to actually, you're really your first day out to go
[01:58:48] paddle into waves and stand up. That's not easy to do. Now, Josh Hall did make you a freaking
[01:58:54] basically an aircraft carrier of course. It's freaking massive. 11, 6 and it's like over four inches thick
[01:59:05] and 24 inches, which anyone that's a surfers here in these numbers going damn, that is an actual
[01:59:11] aircraft carrier. But that's what a perfect platform. And plus you're how much do you weigh?
[01:59:17] 240. Oh, yeah. Like that's a different level. You need a big ass board. And it looks like
[01:59:22] you echo Charles. Yes, sir. What's up with your surfing career? Oh, minimal at best.
[01:59:28] We'll say. How come? I don't know. There's no tangible reason. I mean, I guess if I search my
[01:59:35] soul, you know, I did body boarding sponging as it was punching, you know, for the most of my
[01:59:42] adolescent life. And then, yeah, how did you not, but how did you not, like, say, oh, wouldn't it be
[01:59:48] cool to stand up on this thing and ride this wave and glide through the ocean?
[01:59:54] Yeah. I don't know. It's just one of the things. You know, like, where I grew up on the
[02:00:00] south side of Kauai, they're actually not there's surfing, but I grew up at the beach, like,
[02:00:05] literally grew up at the beach. And then again, you're saying this, like, this is some sort of a
[02:00:10] weird way that you wouldn't be surfing. But you're like, no, no, no, I grew up at the beach. No,
[02:00:16] exactly. But if you're wrong with you, if you understand the progression, just naturally
[02:00:21] kind of growing up there, you go, you're swimming, you know, in the baby pond at Playable Beach.
[02:00:25] And then you're like, okay, then you're kind of body surfing a little bit, then you're
[02:00:29] booky boarding body boarding sponging, you know, also that. And then, yeah, it's exactly, I think you
[02:00:34] start to go surfing. And there's a, there's a, how should I say, a geographical element to it as well.
[02:00:41] You're literally in the baby pond, then you're outside the baby pond. And then the surfing
[02:00:45] waves and the surfing spots, those are out. So you always see the surfers, but they're way out.
[02:00:50] So I get maybe I think when we started getting into football and stuff, it's like the beach
[02:00:55] started to be less and less. And then we just never, I don't know what I never did.
[02:01:00] Are you thinking if I get an investment for a second? Yeah, step. So like, you're going to have to
[02:01:05] get out, like you said it, where you want to be as a little bit further out. You know, that's where
[02:01:10] the good stuff is. It's best to crush and all her work out like 45 minutes before you first
[02:01:17] day. Yeah. Well, that was interesting, too. So like we get in the water.
[02:01:22] What have been surfing before? Right. Yeah, never. No, but I'm, I was, like, I'm talking to
[02:01:28] Doug and I'm like, bro, I've been on hunts with him. Like, I'm watching him move through the forest.
[02:01:33] And he's just like, you know, freaking 14 foot legs. And he's just stepping over, like,
[02:01:39] he's stepping over small, like, yeah, like small trees and stuff like this. And I'm,
[02:01:44] I'm like, dude, you know, and then watching him shoot, I'm watching him shoot a ton and then like
[02:01:48] hook a football or whatever. I'm like, yeah, this guy's a great athlete. And so I'm thinking,
[02:01:53] we're going surfing and I'm like, okay, you know, he, and I said, man, you're going, I was,
[02:01:56] I told you this. I go, bro, if you're long arms, you're going to just be like, bro, and this
[02:02:00] big board, you're going to be, you're going to be like a freaking, you know, a cigarette boat,
[02:02:05] just going through the water. So we'd go in and I, like I said, I wasn't doing any coaching.
[02:02:10] I was just kind of leaving that Josh and I get in the water and I start paddling out and then
[02:02:15] I look back because Doug was going next and then Josh was doing sort of like cleanup, right?
[02:02:19] In case something went sideways and they're probably going to get in. So then I see Doug, like,
[02:02:23] okay, he's good. He's in and then I start paddling and I'm not like racing, but I'm just paddling out.
[02:02:28] But then Josh comes up next to me and I'm like, well, that's weird. I want to wear
[02:02:32] dudas. So I'm paddling a little bit more and I look back. So now it's been like probably
[02:02:36] one minute and 30 seconds. Maybe I look back and as soon as I look back, I see Doug and he looks like
[02:02:43] he's just like, they got into a freshly natural repair. Like, oh, yeah, because here's the thing.
[02:02:52] And you brought this up to me a long time ago, echo Charles. If you're not used to it,
[02:02:57] that's like, if you're not used to it, it doesn't matter. Look, it matters and if you'd
[02:03:02] weren't in good shape at all, then it would really suck. Yeah. But if you're not used to that
[02:03:07] little particular muscle group and the technique, because you're in the water and there's balance
[02:03:13] going on and yeah, it takes a little bit. Yeah, they're true. I mean, I was laughing at myself because
[02:03:21] well, first off, I didn't know like where we were going, because we were, we were, you're going to
[02:03:28] be surfing sets, right? That would further out. You know, I don't know where it was, probably
[02:03:33] won't say, because I know you have your spots. But so my first experience was we walked out from the
[02:03:40] pier and like where stuff was breaking right there. That's where I was surfing. So when he kind of
[02:03:47] jumped off the rock and went out there a ways and I was talking to Josh and Josh, like, yeah,
[02:03:53] just get where you're comfortable and launch out on your board. You know, wait for a smooth spot and
[02:03:57] jump out. So when I did that by that point, Jocca was like 100 yards out. So I thought like,
[02:04:05] he's where we were going to be waiting for these waves. So I just went like full sprint for like the
[02:04:11] first 30 seconds and then Josh, like, as I'm like kind of starting to burn out, you know,
[02:04:17] that freaking Josh is like strokes by and there just go and then Jocca was just looking back. He's like,
[02:04:24] got to go about 200 more yards and I was just thinking like, for MD. Like,
[02:04:31] for, bro, I was going into like, I was, I was saying this kind of stuff like, bro, you got to
[02:04:35] give me like two minutes of hard pattern. I was in that moment. You know, like two minutes and it's
[02:04:41] over. It's a kind of out because you were just kind of in the lineup, like not going to start
[02:04:45] using the impacts of the reason. And all of a sudden, there's a wall and I'm like, because now
[02:04:49] I'm reading now, I put everything together by my mind. And I'm thinking if this, if this brother
[02:04:54] doesn't get out there, like now he's going to be in here for a long time. So I'm like, you got to
[02:05:00] give me like two minutes. Give me like two minutes of work. It was, I put, see, I love like, I love
[02:05:06] that. I love something that, you know, it's just to me struggle gives you, it like gives you a purpose.
[02:05:16] You know, today, when we were waiting to come here, I just sat out there and watched those things.
[02:05:20] And I was like thinking about every mistake I made yesterday and how I would do it differently today.
[02:05:26] Paddling was one of them. But like, even yesterday,
[02:05:32] Choc has like, hey dude, you know, just hit the garage where you work out. So I went down in there and
[02:05:37] it's very different than mine. You know, so I'm kind of looking around, looking at the, you know,
[02:05:42] the tools trying to figure out like what I can construct, you know, that day. So I freaking, you know,
[02:05:49] hit his rings for a while and stuff and and did some kettlebells. But then I also thought like,
[02:05:55] you know, a lot of it's like freaking gorilla movements. So he, you know, his wife and girls had some
[02:06:04] bands over on the side. So after I, you know, slung some kettlebells around for a while, I, you know,
[02:06:11] went and grabbed some bands and just did some like burnouts of, you know, shoulders and, you know,
[02:06:16] freaking arms and stuff, which I thought was, you know, I worked out for an hour. I was pretty
[02:06:22] happy with, you know, everything. But like, dude, at like 100 yards out, freaking trying to
[02:06:30] paddle that aircraft carrier. And he's like, 200 yards building, you got it. And I was just like,
[02:06:37] oh, like, freaking dry sets. You know what I said, you later, we got back. He's like, he's like,
[02:06:42] yeah, you know, bro, I mean, I just realized for the first time that like when you see a surfer,
[02:06:47] that guy's in like better shape than a wrestler like he's in sick. You got to be in the sick
[02:06:52] ishap because that's how hard it was. In a way, but also not a way, let's face it. You can be like a
[02:06:57] fat old dude that serves like I'll take you to, yeah, they're just used to and they got good
[02:07:02] technique and they just go out there and they don't even, you know, they don't even freaking try
[02:07:06] in there. I was like, when I give a bodybuilder, you know, a bow and watch him like,
[02:07:11] struggle to get it back and you're like, dude, this is a 70 pound dumbbell row right now. And you
[02:07:17] can't do it. You know, and then because, yeah, is that that they don't have like the, the little
[02:07:23] stabilizer muscles or something? It's like, no, it's just like, it's just the understanding of like
[02:07:28] the technique of like where you're pushing and pulling and like the leverage of it. It'd be like,
[02:07:33] you know, it'd be just like walking up and even if a big dude, you said like, you know,
[02:07:38] hey, do a clean and jerk and you just like put 200 pounds on there. You do, I mean, it's just going to be a
[02:07:42] train. Right. They don't have the technique. Whereas you get a little female that knows how to do a clean
[02:07:48] and jerk. Yeah. She'll take that 200 and throw it up like it's nothing. I'll be talked about that on the
[02:07:53] maze today. We're talking about that. What the swinging one? Yeah, the big maze. Yeah, that for surfing,
[02:07:59] yeah, you're right. Like actually, you don't have to be in that good shape. You just have to be
[02:08:03] used to because it's so repetitive. Like just patdling it so repetitive. It's like not knowing how to
[02:08:08] swim. Honestly, like on that board, I just felt like, you know, the first time, even if someone
[02:08:16] knows how to swim, you throw them in the water. If they don't know like stroke and like how to
[02:08:20] block and breathe and you're like taking on water in your mouth and you're like trying to blow
[02:08:24] that out and yeah, you know, you're freaking sprinting when there's waves up like and it was like
[02:08:30] simple stuff. You know, I got my first ride in. I think I was on my like I went up to one,
[02:08:36] you know, one then got up to one foot for a little bit and then like as I'm going back out, I'm just,
[02:08:41] you know, taking freaking, taking the straight line straight out and I did that a couple times
[02:08:49] and then I'm out there with Josh. And Joshua would rode one in. I'm out there with Josh in a couple,
[02:08:55] like a big set came that were crashing kind of further out and like as we're going up, he knew it was
[02:09:01] going to like crash and he goes, he goes, bro, when you go up, he goes, do a push up on your board.
[02:09:06] Right as you're hitting the right as you're hitting, you know, whatever you call it, you know, the
[02:09:10] flake or what do I want? Yeah, he's like, you know, do a push up on your board and then it drives
[02:09:14] and goes down and you can just ride the back and I like that freaking wind up this thing. It was like
[02:09:18] and rode down and I'm just like, now you tell me dude, I freaking was taken like full endos,
[02:09:26] just freaking one after another in the freaking mortar zone, just taking heavy artillery,
[02:09:34] Josh going Josh or just out there like, watch me just like, you know, he'll be back, he'll be back
[02:09:39] out here 15 or whatever. There's a lot of technique. Man, he told me the, you know, the buttonhook method,
[02:09:49] the channels. Yeah, like, once the channel, we got all the way out and climbed up on the rocks and
[02:09:55] we were there to take a picture of the three of us like up at the top of the cliffs and he goes,
[02:10:02] see where all those are breaking, he's like, yeah, that's how it allows you. He goes, that's why
[02:10:07] I like, I'd ride it out this way and then I'd come in around the back and then Josh, you know,
[02:10:12] how Josh always rode out that way and then he'd come around the back and he's like, you just kept going
[02:10:16] right up the minute. I was like, man, you think you've tell me that like 10 minutes in,
[02:10:24] it's another time. You know what? As you said, there's like only so many things, like the 97 things
[02:10:31] that I wanted to tell you or that Josh wanted to tell you? Yeah, that just didn't make the chart yet.
[02:10:36] And then once you once we realized that, okay, he's going to be able to survive, then that made it
[02:10:40] onto the freaking, onto the prioritize and execute things. Don't just sit there in the impact zone and try to
[02:10:45] pat it out. Um, hey, so I'm going back to the business side of things because again, to me,
[02:10:54] that's one of the, that's what makes it's applicable. Well, that's what makes your story applicable
[02:10:59] in so many different realms is the, the business side and the way you've set things up.
[02:11:04] You ended up eventually kind of like, I don't know if this was your, your final move,
[02:11:11] but not it's not your final move, but your one of your biggest moves was partnering up with with PSE.
[02:11:18] Yeah, I mean, that definitely came later, but yeah, I mean, there came a point where
[02:11:23] our business had grown a really awesome community that was, you know, thriving for the educational
[02:11:31] content and then also like products that supported that educational content, which was all, you know,
[02:11:38] Sharon's side of the house. I was more, you know, I come up with things to talk about based on
[02:11:44] someone I'm working with at that time, but yeah, the brand became a community, you know, it became,
[02:11:51] you know, Sharon always said like, we're not, you know, we don't have fans, we have, you know,
[02:11:56] we have a community like we have, you know, we have a knock on nation. That's kind of what we
[02:12:02] referred to it probably five years ago, you know, five or six years ago, which we just turned 10 years old.
[02:12:09] So, you know, halfway through we realized, you know, like what really fit our model.
[02:12:15] And then yeah, one of the hard things for me, one of the hardest things is, you know, I'm a very
[02:12:22] loyal person, you know, and I've since I've also been, I've worked internally at manufacturers,
[02:12:30] I look at, you know, ambassadors or external representatives in a different light than, you know,
[02:12:38] if someone just outbearing an ambassador, you know, or public figure, whatever, whatever, you know,
[02:12:44] it's way different now. But when I was internal and we had pro staff, you know, you just,
[02:12:52] you see what people do that really helps the company and makes you like never in question of
[02:13:00] should we get, you know, who are we going to keep around this year? I just knew those types of things,
[02:13:06] you know, to where if it was, it's just like with for me, like with my friendships,
[02:13:13] if it's a two-way street, then, you know, that's a good relationship. But if it's all, if it's always like,
[02:13:19] you know, there's always a given a take, then, you know, that's just not like a healthy relationship.
[02:13:25] So, from like, like you built me a bow, you taught me how to shoot, you took me on Hanson,
[02:13:29] and then I broke your neck. That's a good relationship. Yeah, that's how I'm looking for it.
[02:13:34] That's exactly what I'm looking for. Yeah, a lot of people don't know that like,
[02:13:41] when you are here doing the podcast with Andy and Trevor, that was day one of jujitsu for me.
[02:13:48] And I was actually in this room. I just couldn't talk because my neck was broken. I was over in that corner,
[02:13:54] just trying to get oxygen, freaking pull my ass off his off the back, neck bone.
[02:14:03] Meanwhile, you and Andy are just frigging laughing. You're laughing.
[02:14:06] Okay. I'm just like, okay. It's your little thing. Yeah, it's all right. So, we form these really good relationships with the two
[02:14:14] waste street, just like you and I got. Yeah, and so it's always been tough when, when you change, you know,
[02:14:21] when you, if you change brands because I don't ever want it to be a reflection of loyalty but a lot of times,
[02:14:27] A lot of times like the higher up you go in what you're giving someone or what they're
[02:14:35] giving you.
[02:14:36] There's obviously there's just more expectation and there's more, you know, I don't
[02:14:41] know, it's just like the higher up and rank you go.
[02:14:44] There's, you know, there's things that you need to do better than other people.
[02:14:50] And so, you know, when you climb to that spot, it's, sometimes it's hard when you get to
[02:14:54] a higher level to then change because I don't ever want it to people to feel like I'm
[02:14:59] just making a change from a monetary point of view.
[02:15:04] But for me, I had gone through two consecutive contracts that were multi-year contracts
[02:15:14] and both of them kind of got cut when our business is projecting, you know, in this format,
[02:15:21] but then, you know, they're like, well, you know, we're kind of plateauing from a marketing
[02:15:25] point of view and, you know, we're not getting added budgets, but we need to make room for
[02:15:30] other things.
[02:15:31] So they were always transparent, but it also became clear of, you know, we're
[02:15:36] projecting up and I want to, I want to provide more free content, but I can't provide
[02:15:41] free content to the consumer if I have no support from, you know.
[02:15:46] By the way, when you say your trajectory is going up, you mean not on archery is growing,
[02:15:53] you're getting more and more people following, there are more people watching your
[02:15:56] instructional on YouTube.
[02:15:58] There's just a whole new archery pie, like, you know, people within the archery community,
[02:16:04] that pie would be like, you know, local surfers around here probably, you know, that's probably
[02:16:09] a pie.
[02:16:11] Because if someone just really started focusing on, you know, teaching surfing to people
[02:16:17] like me, you know, and I came in, they like start this whole other thing to where these
[02:16:23] people all over here are probably looking at like, what's this guy even doing?
[02:16:26] You know, why is he doing that?
[02:16:28] The reality is, you know, we're kind of like baking a whole new cake because the people
[02:16:34] that we're getting from the military and, you know, the people that we get from a lot
[02:16:38] of our mutual friends.
[02:16:40] Like I'm beyond busy just with our, just with people that we know should be getting an
[02:16:47] archery, right?
[02:16:48] And at the end of that contract, my last one, I kind of knew I need to open my ears to
[02:16:58] everybody because I had been with that company for 10 straight years, but I also had taken
[02:17:04] six years of, you know, to where things were plateauing and I could see there wasn't progression.
[02:17:11] So I listened to everybody and yeah, I mean, through everything, there was honestly there
[02:17:16] was multiple deals that were better than where I was, but PSE came in and pretty much
[02:17:23] said like, we love what you're doing and we want into support what we're doing, but we
[02:17:28] also want to give you the tools to where if you want to do more, we'll give you the tools
[02:17:32] for that. So they said, you know, if you feel like you want to create a bow that's specific
[02:17:37] to, you know, to your followers or if you want to do something and I said, well, you know,
[02:17:42] can I bring in a bow that's like at a budget price, you know, and they just said, yeah,
[02:17:47] you tell us what you want it to sell for, you know, we'll assign an engineer to you and you
[02:17:52] can, you know, you can do whatever you want. So it was just, it was just a different door,
[02:18:00] you know, that got opened that allowed us to go a direction with our brand that I feel good about
[02:18:08] and I feel like, you know, I sleep well with just knowing that we're giving back a lot.
[02:18:15] And yeah, PSE's been a huge part of that, you know, they've just given me the tools, you know,
[02:18:20] the first bow we came out with is the one you and I shoot and then came out with another bow
[02:18:26] that was focused on, you know, a price to where either average person can go and get into archery
[02:18:33] with a really good set up, but probably still less than what you could buy a surfboard for, you know,
[02:18:39] I mean, and then yeah, we can choose our direction. So it's been an awesome partnership and,
[02:18:46] you know, there are an America, you know, everything's made in America for the stuff that,
[02:18:51] you know, we're designing and it's just, it's really cool because it's actually the company.
[02:18:57] My first bow was a PSE and last year was their 50 year, like anniversary.
[02:19:04] So, and PSE started in Illinois, like very close to where that road that I turned down was not very far
[02:19:12] from there. So there's just a lot of cool things like that that, you know, a lot of times
[02:19:17] if things are meant to be, they happen, you know, I've just learned that, you know, if you
[02:19:23] for stuff, it's not for the right reasons. So I've, I've just really, I've been fortunate that I haven't
[02:19:31] had to make a decision based on, like, I can't pay my bills if I make this decision.
[02:19:36] So I've always just let things unfold of, you know, really what's meant to be will be, and, you know,
[02:19:43] and I feel like I feel like my progression of shooting tournament archery and learning what I learned
[02:19:51] there and learning the connections and growing up, working with the manufacturer and seeing some
[02:19:57] of that behind the scenes stuff. Like all those were just sacrifices and building blocks that I had
[02:20:04] to do to get to where I really want to be. You know, I never, I never wanted to be the best
[02:20:09] tournament archer and never really wanted to be, you know, I didn't want to just work at an archery
[02:20:15] you know, manufacturer or, you know, go to all the, the shoots. I just, I love hunting. I love
[02:20:22] teaching, you know, I like, I like going to new spots and seeing new things and having new challenges.
[02:20:28] So, you know, that's kind of what it's done for me. Yeah. And what I like about it and I remember
[02:20:33] as this deal was unfolding. You were telling me what it was like and it's like, it's a true partnership.
[02:20:37] Like you said, you're allowed to go in there. You can help design exactly what it is you want.
[02:20:44] It's your name going on these on this equipment. So it's like you can't be any more invested
[02:20:51] in this company, which is, which is awesome. Yeah. And what the other thing too is
[02:20:57] everyone needs to remember, you know, if you can't shoot it well, there's no purpose to it. So like
[02:21:03] through that whole process, I got equipment from all these companies that I really hadn't done,
[02:21:11] hadn't done a lot of due diligence shooting to where I, you know, because I had only shot
[02:21:16] two other archery brands really at from a like professional level, each one for about a decade.
[02:21:22] So I shot other competitors to know what they felt like, but that doesn't mean I knew what they
[02:21:28] would do like in my hands every day. So I needed to know that. And right away after three or four
[02:21:36] days, I thought this is a seriously underrated product, you know, and I went out there and met with them
[02:21:45] and they talked about a lot of things that they wanted to do, especially like at that 50 year,
[02:21:50] you know, they wanted to, you know, make some changes from the sales point of view. They wanted
[02:21:55] to make some marketing decisions that were different, you know, they said, you know, we want to be
[02:22:00] able to to hit some like niche markets, which for them our community was a niche market, which I think
[02:22:08] was very underrated, you know, now now I think they realized, you know, what the impact is.
[02:22:16] But yeah, it really gave the ability for me to take people that had incredible ideas internally
[02:22:23] and in awesome patents, which, you know, for me would be hard to go out on my own and do it
[02:22:31] because I'd have to work around so many things that now that I've shot their bows, I personally like.
[02:22:37] So, you know, I would be trying to figure out a way around what they've solidified as a, you know,
[02:22:45] as a proven design. So it just, it was a, for me, it was a plug-in play. Like, and that's what,
[02:22:51] it had to be because, you know, we've worked really hard, Sharon and I, to, you know, really
[02:23:01] stay on our path at knock on our tree because there's, there's been a lot of opportunities to, you know,
[02:23:07] maybe, I don't know if sell out would be like the term because it probably wouldn't be that drastic,
[02:23:13] but we could have definitely made a lot more decisions that would have put our following secondary
[02:23:20] to decisions that we made and the PSE collaboration was a, was an awesome plug-in play for us.
[02:23:31] And I think as a, especially me, I feel like I was an athlete that built a career out of
[02:23:40] the discipline of athletics, honestly. I feel like those are the little things in business, you know,
[02:23:49] especially now, like so many people build business based off social media or, you know, maybe they've,
[02:23:57] you know, maybe they've been with the origin for, you know, using your guise for a year.
[02:24:01] And you guys have been good to them and you're laying down foundation to get to where you
[02:24:07] want an origin to go, but then, you know, brand Y comes in and says, well, you know, we're not just
[02:24:13] going to give you a discount on a guise, we'll give you a guise. And, you know, I was always at the,
[02:24:20] the mindset of, okay, if I get a guise to it, one, do I really need to get a free guise, if I've got one,
[02:24:28] even though I had to buy it for moregen, you know, and okay, let's say I take the free guise.
[02:24:35] Well, now I've, like, also started a brand new relationship. So, you know, I think we made a lot of
[02:24:41] really good choices by weighing out, like, long-term relationships that understood the direction
[02:24:50] we needed to go, but we weren't there yet, but they were going to help at a rate that they could
[02:24:55] to where we could get to our goal versus, like, you know, a lot of startups or the perfect example of,
[02:25:02] like, you know, they make a lot of dumb decisions as I did as a business, you know, given stuff
[02:25:09] away to the wrong people, and those, those places come and go all the time, and I think as like an
[02:25:14] and, you know, an ambassador type figure, whatever, you can, I think you can be like the
[02:25:20] call me influencers. That's where hashtag influencer. Yeah, which, yeah, that's your official hashtag
[02:25:26] for any night. But, yeah, you can, you know, you can burn a lot of bridges, and it's just my experience
[02:25:34] that a lot of these, you know, jujitsu, surfing, archery, they're like, they're small demographics,
[02:25:43] they're like small ecosystems. So, it's like, there's only so many times you can burn a hole in the
[02:25:49] freaking ozone before, eventually, people are like, that dude just burn in the planet down, if, you know,
[02:25:56] yeah. What I like about you, what you guys, what you and Sharon have done,
[02:26:00] and I think this might be the biggest lesson that I look at you to try and pass on to the people.
[02:26:07] As you guys have done the right things for the right reasons a little time. You have put the
[02:26:11] customer first, you put the clients first, you put the people that are watching your videos.
[02:26:16] I mean, there's, there's, well, that's what you've done. That's what you've stuck to,
[02:26:20] making the best products you can, trying to get them at a good price point. I mean, for you to go to
[02:26:24] PSE and like say, okay, I could make one their bow, you know, and this super high end bow,
[02:26:31] but you went there and the first really, I guess the second movie made, because you did make that
[02:26:36] first bow that we're shooting, but then you said, okay, here's the first move. We're going to make a bow
[02:26:39] that is affordable to people that still kicks ass. So, I think one of the lessons that I take away from
[02:26:46] this is like, if you're doing the right things for the right reasons, in the long run, strategically,
[02:26:52] you're going to be better off than, you know, trying to, trying to maneuver real quick to make a
[02:26:57] little bit of a buck here in a buck there. Like you said, you're burning a hole in the world that
[02:27:01] that you have to live in and it ends up not working out well. I hate to ask you this, because
[02:27:09] I've, you probably been asked this 10,000 times, but look, we've been going for two and a half hours or
[02:27:15] something like that. But if someone is starting, if someone's like, hey, dude, this sounds awesome,
[02:27:20] I want to get into this. I want to get an archery. I want to get a bow. I want to, you know,
[02:27:24] what, I want to go hunting. I want to be freaking stalking around in the forest with Kami Paint on my face.
[02:27:30] Like, I'm in. I want to get into it. What, what do you recommend? How do you, how do you go about that?
[02:27:36] Well, I think first, you should just, you know, Google, you know, Google archery shops and look at
[02:27:41] ratings. There's, you know, some areas are very fortunate to have in an awesome archery shop that,
[02:27:48] you know, has amazing, you know, entry level, you know, classes and programs like that.
[02:27:58] But also, like, especially from our point of view, knock on archery.com is, you know, we offer free,
[02:28:06] lessons and content. I just put out a series, you know, archery 101 with, you know, Mark Shanker from
[02:28:14] Kickspan because you and I are both were like freaking hairstylingers from the 80s.
[02:28:19] You're thinking of late babbin. Late babbin was a hairstylinger. Was not me. I wasn't listening to freaking
[02:28:24] poison like you were. I'll give that to you, bro. Hold with you, God. You know, you do.
[02:28:37] You know, offense against kicks, but they weren't in my freaking tape deck.
[02:28:42] What was your top three for a black Sabbath motorhead, Led Zeppelin, ACDC, and then just
[02:28:50] straight into all the hardcore stuff that I grew up on, Chrome Mags, Bad Brains,
[02:28:56] Ignostic Front, right on down the line, who wants something?
[02:29:01] Well, if you wanted that easier listening, you had alternatives. But, uh, no, we did, I just thought
[02:29:08] it was a really cool story because, you know, he's, he's later in life, decided to pick up
[02:29:15] jujitsu, you know, went down that path, you know, wanted to honestly wanted to like get away from
[02:29:21] factory farming. And so, decided to go down the archery path and, you know, wanted to like get
[02:29:27] good enough to where he could, you know, get his own food. So to speak, so it was really cool.
[02:29:33] And we documented that and that's, you know, it was like a three-part series, which takes someone
[02:29:37] from who had never pulled the bow back and just walked him through, like, you know,
[02:29:45] same thing I did with Helen, right? You know, and saying, I didn't know anything about our tree.
[02:29:52] You, again, man, so thankful that you decided, like, hey, you, you are going to really like this.
[02:29:58] Because you heard me on Rogan and you're like, this guy needs to get a freaking bow. So you said it
[02:30:02] up, you came out here, freaking, like, what did they say? Like, it's not going to come you on a silver
[02:30:08] platter, right? In life, things are going to come to you on a silver platter. I literally got
[02:30:13] archery on a silver platter. And I know it to everyone out there that's like this sample,
[02:30:17] bitch, just had freaking doubly build mabo and then teach them. Like, that's what happened. I know,
[02:30:23] I'm sorry that I got that freaking lucky. You know, my buddy Jack Manels at S. L. I'm front,
[02:30:28] you know, Jack. But he, he's like, man, he's like, he's like, man,
[02:30:33] done the touch of how to shoot, man. He's like so freaking pumped. So I know that I know that I got that,
[02:30:41] but one, but I, I didn't even watch in your videos like before you came out to teach me. And so then
[02:30:47] immediately, I go home and I'm like, all right, what are these videos that he's talking about? And I'm like,
[02:30:50] oh, that's literally just what he told me to do. And he was like, I went through and I'm like,
[02:30:54] oh, this is what you, so anybody that's thinking, I got so lucky. I did. I'm not taking that away.
[02:31:00] But you can get just as lucky by going to press and freaking play on a YouTube video. And you're
[02:31:05] going to get, you said the exact same things to me. You're like, hey, this is what you need to do. Here's
[02:31:09] we start. Here's what this is. Here's what this is. And I'm like, okay, cool. And I'm doing it.
[02:31:13] Then I go home and watch the videos. I'm like, that's what he just told me. He could have just sent
[02:31:15] me the YouTube link. You have to fly out here to say, yeah, you go. So every, the, the fact that
[02:31:21] you've given access to your actual program of coaching and it's available to anybody.
[02:31:28] Yeah, it's available to anybody. So, and on our YouTube channel, you and I pair a lot
[02:31:33] each other in that format. Like, and I heard you talk about it in the past. You've talked about,
[02:31:41] you know, like, you know, for extreme ownership, right, when you first started doing it, and you
[02:31:45] would, you know, probably when you started, you would get cash by going in places and doing that
[02:31:51] presentation, which is kind of like when I used to travel Europe. And like my slide shows, you know,
[02:31:58] if people took pictures of them, it kind of weirded me out. Like, I need to be booking, you know,
[02:32:04] I need to book another spot. That's how I'm paying for my bills, you know. But then it gets to the
[02:32:08] point where you realize, no, actually the more people you're helping, the more people that want to
[02:32:15] dive deeper. So, you know, there came a point for me where I kind of knew I was going down the right
[02:32:24] road when people that were on higher levels were getting mad at me because they're like, don't show
[02:32:31] them how to do that. You know, why are you showing them how to do that, dude? You know, and because
[02:32:37] the US was so dominant in archery competition for a long time in the compound both category,
[02:32:44] and so like learning that ranging system on the unknown things, like, you know, that was never
[02:32:51] telling you one, that sort of thing. But just all these small little things, you know, we'd go to
[02:32:56] another country and see them like punching triggers or something, you know, my buddy, look at me,
[02:33:01] like, you freaking talk to them about punching that trigger. I'm gonna punch you in the face.
[02:33:04] You know, let's freaking do these people. So, but yeah, I just felt like the more I gave away,
[02:33:15] it's also a really good filter because you really start to see how many people are absorbing what
[02:33:21] you're saying, and not, you know, not being an asshole, where they're just asking and they never
[02:33:26] apply, ask, never apply, never apply. You see people where you look at them and you're like, oh,
[02:33:32] hey, man, when did you start shooting that silver back? And they're like, yeah, I watched, you know,
[02:33:37] video blah, blah, blah, and I've been working on it. I think I'm getting better and meanwhile,
[02:33:41] I know this because I'm seeing, you know, what I tried to teach being applied by someone that I know,
[02:33:48] I didn't directly tell it to. So then naturally, it's like, well, hey, let me give you a little bit,
[02:33:54] you know, let me help you progress, progress this a little bit. And I feel like, um, for you and I
[02:34:01] both, you know, we just got to the point where we realized, lay it all out there. And yeah,
[02:34:09] there's, there's certain places that we'll say, Dudley will give you anything to come out here and
[02:34:15] like do it in person and blah, blah, blah. And yeah, I've got people, you know, we've auctioned a
[02:34:22] couple of bows that have gone, you know, for a lot, for good, always for a good cause,
[02:34:27] but we auctioned a bow that went for a lot for the Navy Seal Foundation to get to that million
[02:34:35] dollar, March to a million mark. And, you know, even though it was a raffle, you know, people still
[02:34:42] well, you know, not everyone's got 20 bucks to buy a bunch of raffle tickets and it's like,
[02:34:48] you know, you can't make everyone happy, but the reality is, you know, if someone really wants to go through
[02:34:54] and put it all together, they can, you know, they can read all these and, you know, so many different
[02:35:03] things that I've heard you talk to people, you know, and give them, I don't know, you people will
[02:35:11] come and be like, hey, you know, Jock, go give me some advice about this. And then, you know, go through
[02:35:16] and look in here and I'm like, oh, yeah, well, you know, I've heard them apply that exact thing
[02:35:21] and they acted like, you know, he just told them something this never been said and it's like, actually,
[02:35:26] if they would follow that, like, you know, I'm a broken record when it comes to archery, I've,
[02:35:33] I've boiled down a recipe to, you know, what I feel is like a balsamic glaze. It's like,
[02:35:41] they're good stuff, you know, and I know like what can make most archers who are brand new be at a very
[02:35:50] high level fast and eliminate a lot of mistakes, but, you know, whether you watch every video I have
[02:35:58] or read all those articles or you come in person. Now, granted it's easier for me to see in person
[02:36:04] if I'm breakdown, which that is the benefit to be an in person. You can directly connect, like,
[02:36:11] right away, you're not having to figure out what am I doing wrong and research it, but other in that,
[02:36:16] like, we put it all out there. If I learned something new or if we come out with a new product,
[02:36:23] then, you know, we're, we're going to put it out there. And most of everything we do is always,
[02:36:28] it's always a derivative of a need that I see that we can help with. And I remember specifically,
[02:36:40] like, on that bow that we were talking about, I have chalkboards all around me, like,
[02:36:46] you've been to my house and stuff. Most anywhere where I, if I sit down and I'm in there very long,
[02:36:53] there's chalk, you know, most of my walls are just painted with chalkboard paint,
[02:36:58] because I just write stuff down so don't forget it. But I remember, like, meeting this person
[02:37:05] that kind of said, like, hey, I'd loved to embark on an archery journey where do I start?
[02:37:10] And so I remember writing that down, which is the name of that bow is embark, because I'm, like,
[02:37:16] you know, embark on your first archery journey, embark on your first bow hunt, you know.
[02:37:20] So a lot of the things that we put out there are because there was a need, you know, my subject matter
[02:37:29] comes from someone's problem that I need to help them fix. And I've been the subject of that a
[02:37:34] few times on social media, like, hey, it's starting looking at Jocco's shot, he's doing this.
[02:37:39] And I'm like, there you go. And it's awesome, you know, and that's the way it should be. You know,
[02:37:43] it's funny is, what's not funny, but probably like the third podcast that we were doing,
[02:37:49] maybe the fourth, something, but very early on in the podcast. I remember I had been asked a question
[02:37:55] about leadership, and I was going to give the answer. And I was like, this answer that I'm about to
[02:37:59] give is like very, very, very valuable. And it didn't, it wasn't like I had a major debate in my mind,
[02:38:08] but it was more just an acceptance. It wasn't like I said, maybe I shouldn't give it away.
[02:38:12] But it was more like I said, when I give this, this is given away something very, very valuable.
[02:38:18] And that's what I'm going to do. Like maybe there's a little bit like, well, you know, because I
[02:38:22] look, I have a leadership consulting company. Yeah. Right. That's what I do is I do leadership consulting.
[02:38:28] If I'm just, you know, hey, go ahead. I'm just going to give away all the answers for free.
[02:38:33] Well, maybe that's not a good idea. And if I had that thought, it was like I split second.
[02:38:38] And I realized it was like, no, actually every possible thing that I can give to people to help them,
[02:38:43] that's what we're doing. That's what I'm doing. And, and that's what you do. And like you said,
[02:38:47] what it helps is that solves, look, no one in life is going to get to the end of their problems.
[02:38:52] Right. No one's going to get to a point where they just like, oh, I don't have any problems
[02:38:55] anymore with leadership. Right. Oh, I've got everything figured out. No one. And so there's, to
[02:39:00] you solve a bunch of their problems, cool. Think, that's what. Now when you work with them,
[02:39:05] you can do a problem. That's actually a little bit more complex. It's actually a little bit more
[02:39:09] challenging. You know, like, I get kind of like you get asked, hey, Doug, you know, sometimes I hit
[02:39:18] a little bit low to the left. And they're thinking that that's the first time you've ever been asked that.
[02:39:22] You know what I mean? Or they say, hey, you know, once I'm sitting on a target, I start to, my hands
[02:39:29] start to shake a little bit. Like they're thinking that this is only happening to them. You've been asked
[02:39:32] that question 15 million talkness, right? And happens to me too, like, you know, hey, Jocquat,
[02:39:37] I know you talk about cover move, but sometimes people are working with, they don't really,
[02:39:41] you know, they don't want to do their part. So how does that even work? I've been, they think that
[02:39:45] that's the only time that's ever happened. And it's actually happened 15 million times that I've been
[02:39:49] asked that question. So give it away. Give away as much as you can to people and that
[02:39:56] elevates everybody. And that means they're, they're seeing value in what you're doing and they're appreciative.
[02:40:01] And now, guess what? They get their problems. That problem solved. Cool. If they never have a problem,
[02:40:06] again, that's great. Cool. That's great. Good for them. That's awesome. I'm happy.
[02:40:11] Someone else is going to have that problem. I'm going to learn, by the way, it's just, it's just
[02:40:14] if it's doing the right things the right reasons. Like I said, if you're doing the right things,
[02:40:17] the right reasons is going to pay off in the end. You and I are really similar in a lot of ways, like,
[02:40:22] you know, right now, sharing an I are staying, you know, in your old house. So just lurking around and
[02:40:30] seeing some of your stuff. I mean, you're, you're not like a gadgety person. You're like, even
[02:40:40] your weights, you know, the first one you got at eBay or where you know, before eBay, when you
[02:40:46] walked in the freaking second win fitness or whatever, freaking bought this rustile for a thing you got.
[02:40:52] But you, I don't freaking old. What you do. Everything you do is that way, but I'm glad you knew
[02:41:03] that the bands you used to work out were not mine. They were my wife's and daughters. But I think
[02:41:13] your consistency with like, you get good at the tools you have and you build yourself around
[02:41:22] those tools. You don't get tools to try to continue to make you better. You know, you're not like
[02:41:28] looking for the cheat code looking for the cheat code. Yeah. I know you talk about that for a hack.
[02:41:32] Like, well, this, if I get this, it'll make me a little bit, it'll make a little bit easier.
[02:41:36] Now, I'm glad we're not talking about surfboards because you also saw my mama surfboards on
[02:41:39] which is kind of rigging ridiculous. Yeah. Yeah, surfboards is like a freaking junkyard of surfboards all
[02:41:47] over the place. Yeah. And there's a little bit of an excuse for that because different waves
[02:41:52] require different boards. Yeah. There's a lot of different waves to surf. I mean, my artier
[02:41:57] room looks very similar to that. But I don't change unless there's a change needed for the application.
[02:42:03] Now, one of the things with me is I never really had great continual coaching. A lot of the
[02:42:10] things that I teach are from mistakes like no one ever told me why I missed low left. I had to figure
[02:42:17] that out over a lot of frustration. And so like once I've learned those things, everything I
[02:42:24] boiled down is to try to help eliminate those mistakes and learning curves. You know,
[02:42:30] shouldn't say it's cheat codes, but just like me, freaking surfing yesterday, I do try to take a
[02:42:37] direct line of tech. So my coaching method is very direct line of attack to where you're
[02:42:47] eliminating mistakes, but like getting to that particular point of topic as efficient as possible
[02:42:55] to where you're not expanding valuable energy in that artri shot. I just want to make sure we capture
[02:43:04] a couple things here. So I'm never done artri before and I want to get into artri. What's we
[02:43:10] we look for a good artri shop, we read the reviews, what's a good amount of money to spend on that
[02:43:16] first investment is it better to go and like, hey, should you go and try like, hey, can I try a bow?
[02:43:22] Like, let me shoot some suit. It feels like in the shop, just to just to make sure you're like,
[02:43:26] oh, yeah, this is freaking cool. Or is it like, you know, spend a thousand bucks, spend 800 bucks,
[02:43:33] what's going to get you in the game? Well, I think if you go there and you try it, most artri
[02:43:38] shops are going to let you try it a little bit. I think that would be valuable and be really
[02:43:44] specific to them to where you're new. You want to make sure you buy a equipment that's very
[02:43:50] suited for you as a beginner. And one of the examples of that is when you buy a bow, they have like,
[02:43:57] you know, they all have pulling weight. So when you pull them back, you know, it takes a certain
[02:44:01] amount of strength to pull them back. I'm real strong. Yeah. I want 500 pounds. Yeah, that's
[02:44:07] Jocco walking in. But a beginner like our wives, for example, if they went into a lot of shops,
[02:44:15] some shops, especially if they were excited and just wanted to buy it right then, they would
[02:44:21] make do with equipment that they have and like size it down for them versus I would weigh rather
[02:44:27] say, hey, I'll wait a couple weeks to order something to work. You know, it's my pull away the bow
[02:44:34] is the right size for me because they can always make it work. But you know, getting the right
[02:44:39] equipment off the get go and being upfront with them of, hey, I really want to do this. I enjoy it.
[02:44:46] I want the right equipment. And it's my personal belief that if you get in on like the lower and
[02:44:53] stuff, you're going to, you can progress really fast with our tree. So what'll happen is you're going
[02:45:01] to do it just a short period of time and realize I'm actually better than this beginner piece of
[02:45:07] equipment and then you realize the value of beginner equipment is kind of a poor investment because
[02:45:15] it's just you're going to sell it for way less because everybody got that cheap entry point.
[02:45:22] So like with the bow that we did the embark, that bow allows you to get a bow at a price
[02:45:30] to where you can put some really high indexes or he's on it because the accessories can carry over.
[02:45:35] It'd be like, you know, if you went and got a, you know, a cool freaking AR but then like
[02:45:43] you, you know, shot your wallet on buying that thing. So then you went, you know, you went and bought
[02:45:48] an abeski and then you're like, well, I got 50 bucks left and you got to borrow your buddies like
[02:45:54] red rider, bevy got like scope that came on it to like put on your abeski. That's going to be a
[02:46:01] problem. So I tell people, you know, get high indexesaries, get, you know, quality arrows, high indexesaries,
[02:46:08] get a bow that's in the middle of the road to where if you move up in that bow, you can transfer
[02:46:14] your accessories over which, you know, we've done with you, you know, we can transfer the accessory.
[02:46:19] I went high end on your accessories because you don't want accessory, like you don't want your
[02:46:24] site moving, you know, if your, if your site's moving around or if your arrow rest is moving around,
[02:46:29] then there's none of us that are going to know how well you're really shooting because
[02:46:33] there's just continual variables. But I think I think for a thousand bucks, you can get in to
[02:46:41] where you can get in and stand without having to re-up and re-up and re-up. But you want something
[02:46:48] that has the ability to, especially if you're still growing, you want to have a cam system
[02:46:54] that and that's kind of the pulley looking things on the bow, you want to be able to have
[02:46:58] something that's adjustable. And especially when you're learning like as a coach, I'm not going
[02:47:05] to be hypersensitive of you being exactly your drawing, which is like your posture when you're
[02:47:14] at like a full drop position with your bow pulling it back because you can pull a bow back to
[02:47:19] different lengths. There's a good chance that your technique is going to slightly change over the
[02:47:25] course of getting better to where you might need to make some adjustments with that. So having
[02:47:30] something that has the ability to adjust is also awesome, what you get when you spend. It's kind
[02:47:37] of like, I think there's like $100 increments like you can get a bow for 400 bucks, but you're
[02:47:42] going to be limited, you know, and then I think once you get to like $699, $799 for the bow
[02:47:49] only, you're in a really good position and then put good accessories on it and you'll be enjoying it
[02:47:56] for that level bow, like the embark, like you go on haunt with that thing. This is, yeah, I'll
[02:48:05] shoot one day at the tax, we'll be with an embark and then one day I'll be with an Indian. Like
[02:48:12] in last year, I took that bow, you know, on one of my most memorable hunts, you know, because I've
[02:48:20] always, that's one thing I've always done is I want people to feel like even though for a
[02:48:26] particular brand, they have a low-end model, a mid-grade model and a high-end model. I've always
[02:48:32] put some of those budget bows to a test and I've used them because I want, I don't want people to
[02:48:38] feel like they can only shoot archery if they have the best gear. I've proven time and time and
[02:48:44] time again that that middle range is a very good place to get in and you can honestly, you can stay there
[02:48:54] and be totally okay but, you know, it's no different than, you know, there's a lot of cars that are
[02:49:01] awesome but, you know, I like my ram but I might want that hellcat ram. Even though technically
[02:49:10] drives the same. Right on, well I think that's that's good info and I'm sure a bunch of people
[02:49:18] to probably good, yeah, we're approaching three hours right now but I just wanted to make sure
[02:49:23] people are going to get interested in this. I want people and by the way, you have all this
[02:49:27] information on your YouTube channel about like, wow, to get started, what to look for,
[02:49:32] everything from freaking arrows to the book, like everything. So it's, it's all out there if you want to go
[02:49:39] a little bit deeper but, yeah, man, obviously I appreciate you coming on but, man, I appreciate,
[02:49:47] I appreciate what you're doing, what you're doing for veterans, you know, that are out there,
[02:49:52] what you're doing for your whole community, people that are making their life better because
[02:49:55] they're out there, they got a mission and absolutely what you've done for me helped me out delivering
[02:50:02] silver platter, bow hunting to me, which again, I'm sorry for everyone for being so spoiled.
[02:50:06] I'm lucky and I appreciate it but, man, it's been awesome and I want to help get other people
[02:50:13] heading down that path because I mean, I think it's beneficial in so many different ways, man.
[02:50:17] Yeah, it is 100% I think it's an awesome and awesome sport, especially for people that come from
[02:50:24] your background who are looking for a new mission, you know, you set it perfectly because
[02:50:30] with all of you guys who have done it, you know, learning a new discipline or a new trade
[02:50:39] is one thing but then once it comes to like packing up to freaking go on call,
[02:50:47] that lights a whole different intensity where, you know, hey, we're meeting, you know,
[02:50:53] we're out at dark, back at dark and when you're out there, you know, geared up and freaking
[02:51:02] ready to get after it, you know, I remember the first time you and I went out and we were on that
[02:51:08] hillside, glass and you just said, bro, this freaking, this is a recon right now, like, you know,
[02:51:16] I'd have a team right over there, there'd be freaking two dudes right there, they'd be like,
[02:51:21] you know, back up and then we'd be here and like, you know, the shit would be all pulled over
[02:51:26] tight, you know, you were in your element just dorking out. Yeah, well, you were head freaking
[02:51:34] dork on the center, also, it's awesome man. Echo, Charles, you can see what kind of
[02:51:41] focus and consistency it takes to approach excellence in any element cognitive focus. But the
[02:51:52] pursuit never stops, the pursuit of excellence does stop, what suggestions do you have?
[02:51:58] Oh, well, I was moving in there, right, you know, we talked about being an athlete,
[02:52:04] right, the importance, the value of being an athlete, which I was with you the whole time, I
[02:52:09] agree fully, but we don't want to stop that just because we get older and take on other
[02:52:13] responsibilities. Are you getting older? Well, that's got a sock. It's just one of those things
[02:52:18] man. The life I live nonetheless, we got to stay in the game even on our off time. There's no
[02:52:25] off time on time. There's just time. Something like that, unless we have things to help you through
[02:52:30] this journey supplementation. First thing, you talk about focus, we have discipline.
[02:52:34] I was able to look at you just to get you on track, because you were starting to stray.
[02:52:39] Whatever you go, those are talking about all this. I can probably chime in on a few things,
[02:52:44] because I can tell you like three things that are pinnacles for me from, you know, from origin,
[02:52:52] cold war, freaking joint warfare, and the vitamin D, and freaking have powered through
[02:52:59] COVID, you know, COVID year was like no factor. No factor, but those three for me are every day.
[02:53:09] They're like right next to my cup of coffee, where I know I'm getting after it first thing in the
[02:53:14] morning. Yeah, that those are freaking legit. The joint warfare is,
[02:53:20] the Go-Reeder Reviews on Dr. Warford, don't listen to me. Who am I? I'm free. I own the company.
[02:53:25] Of course I would take you good, right? Go read the reviews from other people,
[02:53:29] and what it does to them, and what they say that grandma started taking it. Now,
[02:53:33] of the sudden, you know, she's whatever playing tennis again, and whatnot.
[02:53:38] Yeah, true. But this is the whole purpose, yeah, you own the company.
[02:53:43] Oh, but the whole purpose that you have this stuff is because that was like your pursuit even before
[02:53:49] that. True. Like, yeah, you got to take this stuff, real oil, you know, all the ingredients, you know,
[02:53:53] and then, well, you added some ingredients to the joint warfare. That's not too big, that's bad.
[02:53:57] Because why not, like, it's not like, all I'm just going to take, no, make it better.
[02:54:01] Make it the best possible thing that you can put into your mouth to make your freaking
[02:54:06] joints bulletproof, son. Yeah, true. And I'm with you with that combo every day. The
[02:54:13] cold or not is much that that's kind of a seasonal thing. Don't like the cold super
[02:54:18] curl too. Get that curl oil on, man. Get them little fish down. What if they fish? No,
[02:54:23] little shrimp. Little shrimps. Little tiny shrimps. Fish well. Good to the. Yeah,
[02:54:29] maybe want to look good. Fish oil is good. Yeah, you're right.
[02:54:31] Chuck, there's some label here. I will say something. If it's in there, he's read it and
[02:54:37] researched it. There's a reason that we see fish oil is like whatever. That's your freaking
[02:54:42] $400 bill. Yeah. Kriola is the entry or the Kriola is the freaking top of the line.
[02:54:48] It's the top of the line. Super curl is where it's at. I understand fully.
[02:54:54] I mentioned the discipline this one go. Hey, look. Some of us are into energy drinks,
[02:55:00] but really we're not into energy drinks. We're into the idea of energy drinks. And what they don't
[02:55:04] tell you about the whole energy drink thing is that there's poison inside. Straight up normal energy
[02:55:10] drinks. Yeah. Tradish. Tradish. That's why. Yeah. So this is the upgrade. This is the, I don't know
[02:55:15] whatever you guys call it. I think you know, I don't even think it's an upgrade. I think it's new category.
[02:55:19] Yeah. It's new category. It's like, oh, we're over here drinking poison. You're over here drinking
[02:55:23] something that's awesome for you. Clean alternatives is like a long overdue category for
[02:55:30] because think of how many guys went in and got after it in victory and then walked out and just
[02:55:37] grabbed dog crap in a plastic bottle to like have something on the way out the door. Yeah.
[02:55:44] It is way past you. Yeah. Way past you. Yeah. It's almost like, and I'm not as in touch with it,
[02:55:52] but I'm a casual, we'll say, but it seems like the whole energy casual. What? It's, I mean,
[02:55:57] besides life. Everything. What all of the above. You said you're a casual. What are you talking about?
[02:56:02] You know, energy drinks before you see, if it wasn't for me being on deployment, like
[02:56:07] with with energy drinks and needing them because I need this like, hey, I'm freaking wicked tired.
[02:56:14] And I've been awake for 48 hours and I need caffeine into my system. That's why I started drinking
[02:56:19] energy drinks. And then, but what do you deal with? You deal with, oh, I got done drinking the
[02:56:24] energy drink. Now I don't have that way freaking out for anymore. And now I feel like dog shit.
[02:56:30] Yeah. Yeah. And that's exactly what I'm trying to do. There's a bunch of junk in there.
[02:56:34] This exactly what I'm saying. You're talking about like, what about you in the club?
[02:56:39] What about you and you and freaking door man of the year or whatever?
[02:56:42] I never, I never, I never, I never got into energy drinks as much. You know, every once in a while,
[02:56:49] whatever, I just drink coffee because they have coffee available. Oh, whatever. It's for a
[02:56:53] stain up. No, but I'm talking about like activity. You're talking about going on deployment.
[02:56:57] All this time. I don't like the taste of coffee. Okay. Yeah. I understand. Sure. I was talking to Evan
[02:57:02] and Evan's like, bro, I want to get bring up to Utah and I'm going to figure out what
[02:57:07] coffee, you know, what coffee like there's, you know, there's got to be a way. You know, he's like a,
[02:57:12] he's like a, a Somalia of the Java being. Right. And he's like, I want to create it.
[02:57:18] The job. He's texting me. He's like, yeah, he's like, he's a commissar. Man, we're going to get you
[02:57:23] the, you know, the the been that you like and the roast that you like and all the stuff.
[02:57:27] I texted back, I go, bro, I don't even like coffee ice cream. Good luck. He's started laughing.
[02:57:33] But that's kind of an important factor right there because coffee like coffee's like beer,
[02:57:38] where it's like at the end of the day, you're always going to have the beer flavor. There's a beer
[02:57:42] flavor. But there's a coffee flavor. And then from that flavor, they, it was a different
[02:57:47] ride. Or what I wasn't able to taste in that coffee wouldn't be coffee. Exactly. If you made it with
[02:57:51] freaking cocoa beans, it wouldn't be coffee. Yes. Right. If you made it with tea leaves, it wouldn't be
[02:57:55] coffee. Correct. Yeah. Exactly. Or strawberry, so whatever Evan was trying to put on your
[02:58:00] flavors. We'll see. I don't know. He's a freaking, he's into it, man. He maybe can pull it off.
[02:58:05] We'll see. It's chocolate peanut butter. You might be a little bit. That's like you with
[02:58:10] milk, bro. Like I sent you like a whatever. You got some milk and then like two weeks later
[02:58:14] to look him or one. You're like a freaking cracker. He's probably the one that's
[02:58:18] milk of the new man. That was that dude. All right. We'll give you three days and that freaking
[02:58:23] ball. Yeah. It's true. But the energy drinks is like a lot of these activities that they're
[02:58:28] sometimes in my observation, which is limited I know, but in my observation, it's associated with
[02:58:34] these activities that are kind of, let's just say they would benefit more from a healthy,
[02:58:40] oh for sure. For sure. For sure. Yeah. Why would you be doing something that's physically
[02:58:44] demanding and putting poison in your body? So you okay, don't do it. You go to big sky,
[02:58:49] whatever. You know that hill. You're always sending me videos of you guys charging and whatever. What's
[02:58:53] it called? The big. I don't know what's a mountain. Yeah. Of course. What is that called?
[02:59:00] This is called. Yeah. Yeah. Bro, when I ran up that thing after you and I were like,
[02:59:05] kept walking down that mountain every day and be like, Panister be a good workout. Why when
[02:59:09] when I went and did it, I was like, you're up confirmed. That sucks. Yeah. And that's what I'm saying.
[02:59:13] So, so then you, we write the lift up there. Okay. So in the snow, we'll say,
[02:59:18] if you really used to it, okay, good. But just being in the snow, just like just being in the ocean
[02:59:25] or on deployment or in the woods, part of my lack of terminology, but it is just, it is woods.
[02:59:33] Okay. Just being there, bro, it's like that's in and of itself is a thing.
[02:59:38] Like you can't, you're not just cruising, you're just working. Right. So you're okay. And then
[02:59:42] you're doing your activity on top of that and whether you're in big sky, you know, the woods,
[02:59:46] water, whatever, like, you're gonna, you're not gonna want poison in that scenario right there.
[02:59:51] No, or even anything that you're gonna pay the price later or something like that. And it's not needed.
[02:59:55] You don't need to. You don't need that poison. And that's why guys did the good stuff.
[02:59:59] And now, hey, wow, wow. If you want this stuff for you on the east coast, go to wow,
[03:00:03] and, you know, they were saying, they tried to pull the reins on us. They're like, don't tell
[03:00:09] everyone to clear the shelf. Stop, stop saying the back. We're back. See if you can run that
[03:00:15] supply chain into the ground. I challenge you all to see if you can run that supply chain into the
[03:00:19] ground for me. See what happens. If you do, well, figure something out. I'll do, what's something
[03:00:23] I could do? Like make a funny hat put on a funny hat and do a video or something.
[03:00:29] Grow those bangs back. Go on. I'm free to value that haircut back. That ain't happened.
[03:00:36] To me, to me, to me, hair, it's bothersome to me when my hair is like a quarter of an inch
[03:00:41] longer than ever. Like it already bothers me. So go on that distance. Would freaking drive me crazy.
[03:00:47] Unacceptable. Yeah. But did you do every job? Yeah, vitamin shop. And there's a subscription
[03:00:53] scenario. John, you don't want to run out of that that that every day supply, you know,
[03:00:59] jockelfuel.com, which by the way is where you're going to go. I think they call the good good.
[03:01:04] What's the good good? That's a subscription. Oh, yeah. Well, here's the old man. We're not,
[03:01:10] look, we're not alone in the world. There's good good. There's capitalism out here. We're competing
[03:01:15] on an open market. We're competing with some people that are pretty big. So when you compete with
[03:01:20] people that are pretty big, you've got to figure how you're going to make something happen. So what
[03:01:23] we want to do is free shipping, right? Because people are very used to free shipping.
[03:01:27] Because there's some companies out there that do free shipping. And so how can we make that happen?
[03:01:33] The way we made it happen is if you get subscriptions to any of these products, the boom,
[03:01:38] shipping is free. There you go. All right, cool. Also, origin USA.com. Okay, this is where you can get
[03:01:43] American made stuff from jujitsu stuff all the way down to non-jujitsu everyday stuff and like
[03:01:49] for real, everyday stuff. Like jeans, like jeans, like all that. Boots, boots. Yeah, still wait.
[03:01:55] Number hat, Pete, which hat, a bini, a ball cap? No, that you know the one that he wears. We both
[03:02:02] were that one. What do they call the flat cap? Those are called a flat cap. But they're like,
[03:02:06] kind of the French one. Yeah, it's called a flat cap. It's not like a fedura. No, it's called a flat
[03:02:12] cap. It's like what you see like a little British dude wear. Do I Andy got me one in France, a
[03:02:18] camo one that I wear sometimes. And it's made out of ammo flat cap. Hell yeah, dude. Oh, glad you.
[03:02:25] And it's made out of like sweatshirt material. And it's freaking comfy on your head. I hunted with it.
[03:02:31] I told Pete like, make me that out of my origin hoodie material. Because that hoodie's like the
[03:02:38] my favorite thing I wear around the house every day. Oh, yeah, that thing's freaking. The freaking
[03:02:43] midway, that soft ass one. It's freaking awesome. Right. You used to say it most comfortable
[03:02:49] sweat suit every and makes. They make pants to match that. Yeah, that are like longer than
[03:02:55] 28 inches. Or yeah, you got to get a situation. But we'll sew two pairs to
[03:03:01] better. You're freaking long as legs. I heard the hour I saw they had some socks.
[03:03:07] Bruney. Yeah, socks are bruney. We're gonna make everything. Interesting. You make everything.
[03:03:11] Everything. We're bringing it back to America. We're gonna make it so you can wear it. And
[03:03:15] we will make it. Like they're making all these different like cool socks. But at some point,
[03:03:19] I'm just gonna make straight up white socks like you know I roll. See, you have a lot of good
[03:03:24] ideas. You do that one. When are you gonna make a jock strap? I don't know. You need to make a
[03:03:32] jock strap. That's a good call, man. That's a great. That's a great one. I've been here in
[03:03:40] that joke since I was in third grade. Well, for good reasons. But yeah, good. Yes, all American
[03:03:48] made stuff. Really good. Also, Jocquas store is called Jocquas store. And this is where you
[03:03:52] can get shirts and rash guards and hoodies and hats and stuff. That are represented of the path
[03:04:00] directly. And then there's the shirt locker. Which is how this is what savages people want to.
[03:04:05] Yeah, by the way. This is what, this is how savage people are. So we have this thing called the shirt locker.
[03:04:10] Yeah. It's, it's a subscription. And if you're on the subscription, you get like a one-off
[03:04:15] t-shirt. Like if you have to be on, you like, you can't go buy it later. So somebody's actually
[03:04:21] think a couple people are already jacking the designs. I don't even know how to say that. It's not
[03:04:27] like that design is like on this place. People, people posted it. People posted the real one.
[03:04:32] So like, and then they, then they jack it and they put it on these websites. Like, hey,
[03:04:37] it's freaking ridiculous. But it's how savage people are. It is savage and it is lame. But it's,
[03:04:43] there's like a few, you told me that they only use the word savage in a negative way. But I
[03:04:49] know, I guess we're using a positive way. Yeah. More off, I think you just, you just more tuned to it.
[03:04:55] Because I say it with such disc like those just, that's just, what a savage. Yeah. When, when somebody's,
[03:05:02] like, doesn't have the creativity to figure out how to make a cool t-shirt and sell it instead,
[03:05:07] they're just savages and just stealing a design. Yeah. What, who does that? Yeah, it, it's savages.
[03:05:15] Now what's jacked up is you could also be like, oh man, like, you can, obviously be super positive
[03:05:23] thing. Like, oh, like you said earlier, you're like, hey, where the weed of twins are from,
[03:05:28] where the weed of brothers are from, there's a bunch of savages in their neighborhood.
[03:05:31] They're wrestlers in their fighters and I was like, yeah, cool. I totally knew what you were talking about.
[03:05:35] Yeah. So it's one of those words that can go either way. But that's a compliment word.
[03:05:39] We've had many conversations where if Jocco says savage, it's, it's a high compliment for someone
[03:05:47] that doesn't know they just got one. It is a weird thing because I use it as the highest,
[03:05:52] one of the highest, one of the lowest insults I can give. It's literally the same word.
[03:05:58] That dudes a savage or that dudes a savage or a fucking bunch of savages. I don't know how they get the,
[03:06:07] the design because it's not like, okay, like the one, okay, so hard-core recondos are good or
[03:06:13] just when equals freedom. You go to like, I don't want to tell anyone how to, how to get it. But
[03:06:17] it's on display somewhere, you know, but the shirt locker ones, they tend, they're not.
[03:06:22] There's like a hint of them somewhere. No, but no, no, people are taking when they get their shirt
[03:06:27] locker shirt and they're posting it. Oh, they're posting it. Like, yeah, we've got the new shirt locker shirt.
[03:06:31] Oh, yeah, but okay, so how they, how they do that, right? The knockoffs basically
[03:06:37] the counterfeit pirated like design shirts. They go to one of these like internet, yeah, yeah,
[03:06:43] what he called purchase by the restaurant or whatever. No, you can do what he was, his whole
[03:06:49] bad it is if you know about it. And you can, if you just have like half a brain, no offense to
[03:06:55] people who bought those, but you can tell you look at it and it's like this weird like mock-up of
[03:07:01] the design on this real like real like like, what do you see in these, like, model? It's like when you
[03:07:07] buy a metallic a t-shirt like from some dude on the beach, yeah, it looks like there's like plastic
[03:07:12] stickers like yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So what I feel bad about is, though,
[03:07:18] is I know that some people are doing like they're like, oh, cool, like I want to support because
[03:07:21] we're like, you like, hey, man, if you want to support what's going on here, then you get some
[03:07:25] get some gear. And so they can actually are stoked like, oh, cool, I'm helping out, you know,
[03:07:29] the podcast we're in the game. And then they realize they're giving their money to some freaky
[03:07:33] savvy, some freaking savage out there. Stop the savage support. Yeah. And they use like super,
[03:07:40] when I say substandard material, it's like, you know, it's like the internet shirt that you print,
[03:07:46] you know, it's like that, then they get that. And they're like, oh, not to mention, there's more
[03:07:51] to it than just that front design. There's a lot more to it. Oh, there's layers, there's little,
[03:07:56] there's little elements of the shirt if you examine it, you're like, okay, I mean the game with this
[03:08:00] shirt, even on a physical level, not to mention the fill, fill this off a cool level, and you don't
[03:08:05] get that either, man. It's brutal. Anyway, if you want, if you want to get involved with the shirt,
[03:08:11] locker or any of these other things, jugglestore.com. Also, we got, you know, you should possibly
[03:08:18] subscribe to this podcast, but on top of that, it's her you have a podcast. There's a, there's a
[03:08:23] podcast, good to knock on podcast. And it's talking about archery, but it's not just talking about
[03:08:29] archery. You talk about you interview, you know, you've got to fill the foods. Yeah, cool people. Different
[03:08:34] people from different walks of life. How they got the weather that, where they are, of course,
[03:08:39] you do cover if you just want to get for it. You can grain your hunts some archery shit. Well,
[03:08:46] you can go, you'll get so granular. You won't even know where you are anymore. Yeah, we've imploded
[03:08:51] friends that try to go too deep down the archery route. Like we had one blow up today. It's just
[03:08:59] really good. Go to D. Ready, you got to be careful, man. It's like crack, dude. You know, like you
[03:09:04] got to be careful. You start going down that rabbit hole next thing, you know, you look up and your
[03:09:08] world exploded. Uh, you so yeah, check out, check out that podcast, knock on podcast. We want to hear
[03:09:14] more about archery and just other aspects of life. Obviously, you can subscribe to this podcast.
[03:09:19] Um, we also have Jockel unraveling. I've been rolling out some episodes with with with Darrell Cooper,
[03:09:26] which are, which are kind of some crazy episodes coming out. And they're just getting crazy.
[03:09:31] Him, we won't talk about red mean him or like rabbit hole freaking uh uh point man. You know,
[03:09:37] I'm going deep in this and may him with a with an angle flashlight and a 45 caliber pistol.
[03:09:44] And we're going down some holes that they're scary. So you can come check that out.
[03:09:49] Got the grounded podcast. We get the warrior kid podcast. Uh, we can also you can also join us on the
[03:09:53] underground for the Jockel underground, which is it's just a little it's a little like when you like
[03:10:02] here's here's something you'll understand. That's what you used to work in the clubs, right?
[03:10:06] Yeah, you're in the clubs. Yeah, you're in the clubs. I wouldn't say. And there's like the front door,
[03:10:11] right? Where people are coming in, right? And they're feeling like, yeah, I'm in the club. Yeah.
[03:10:15] But then there's also like a VIP scenario. Okay. There's something else going on.
[03:10:20] There's a cause of the fact. Yeah. So there's something else. There's like a little bit more.
[03:10:25] Right. Going on. Yeah. So we have we have the Jockel underground podcast.
[03:10:31] Jockel underground.com. If you want to if you want to comment hanging out a little bit more
[03:10:35] echo and I were in there with chillin. We got bottle service back there. I guess is that the type of thing
[03:10:39] that's on that. Yeah. There sure there is bottle service going on. There's bottle service.
[03:10:45] It's metaphorically. metaphorically because you can send a question. And if you're in the underground,
[03:10:51] you can send a question. We're going through those questions. We're I'm putting out little um
[03:10:55] other things that I'm diving into. Yeah. And they're interesting because they explain a lot like when
[03:11:00] you listen to it and you kind of put it all together. If you don't want to those people, we're like,
[03:11:03] oh, I see what he did there when you remember some stuff that you heard, you're like, oh,
[03:11:07] and it starts to paint this bigger picture and explain a lot of the stuff. Yeah. There's a there's a
[03:11:12] holistic viewpoint that starts to come into your eyes and so go to jockel underground.com
[03:11:18] if you want to go there. They're costs eight dollars and eighteen cents a month. We're trying to
[03:11:22] jack all your money. No. If you can't afford it, go to assistance at jockel underground.com.
[03:11:28] But we do need to have a contingency in case things go sideways. In case freaking big brother
[03:11:34] comes down and just starts stomping out freedom of speech, we got to have a little
[03:11:39] access port to be able to still do what we're doing and put out the word. We also don't want to have
[03:11:45] a bunch of uh uh sponsors that are saying um, we don't want you to talk about this because we
[03:11:53] think it might be offensive to our brand. We're not doing that. So I'll go underground.com.
[03:11:57] Uh YouTube, we got a YouTube channel where echo puts up videos. Also, uh all kinds of
[03:12:03] more information than you could shake a stick at knock on archery. So check those out
[03:12:12] for a bunch of information. Also, origin USA has a little YouTube channel talking about what's going
[03:12:19] on up in farming team. Maybe we got psychological warfare. What's that all about echo trots?
[03:12:24] It's an album. It's a jockel album with jockel tracks on it helping us get through our moments
[03:12:29] of weakness if they may come about. 100% effective by the way. Excellent. We got some books. Final spin.
[03:12:41] It's a novel. It's kind of a novel. It's kind of crazy. It's cool. The final edits are coming back
[03:12:46] right now. Um, and you always get like little comments and we'll just say it's going to be
[03:12:53] interesting to see how this one hits. Oh, comments with the edits. Yeah, come back. Yeah,
[03:12:56] I'll put like something. They'll give you edits, but then they'll be like, I can do it. Right.
[03:12:59] It's like yeah. So we're getting this. Check it out. If you want that first-of-dish leadership
[03:13:04] strategy and tactics field manual, the code, the avi-u-ations that protocol discipline,
[03:13:08] because freedom field manual way of the warrior kid 1, 2, 3, and 4, Mikey and the dragons
[03:13:12] about face by Colonel David Hacworth. You're going through that right now, right? Yep. Three quarters
[03:13:16] of the way through. You're listening to it. Yeah. How's that? I listened to some of it.
[03:13:22] It seems like that guy is a pretty good reader. Yeah. Yeah. I agree. I mean, some of these readers
[03:13:28] are just offensive. Like you listen to him and you're like, this guy is just picked this up for
[03:13:32] the first time. He has no idea what's going on. No context and he's just reading the words on the
[03:13:35] page. I thought that the first like hour, I probably thought, but then some of the things that he wrote
[03:13:43] reminded me of my grandfather so much to where now when I hear it, I hear my grandpa talking because
[03:13:50] he was he was gritty, you know, Korean word gritty and depression gritty. So like I'm hearing him
[03:13:59] tell it how it is and you know, and even like the terminology like he was a good man,
[03:14:07] that was classic, you know, that was classic pop up right there. He's like, you know,
[03:14:14] he was a good man or you know, that that that man's a coward or you know, he was like,
[03:14:21] there was a clear line. You were above it or below it. That was it. Yeah. Yeah. Hackworth. Hackworth
[03:14:27] definitely does that hackworth said this guy, the guys are either studs or studs. No offense.
[03:14:37] Do you do a totally true. We got S on front leadership's consultancy. We saw problems
[03:14:43] in leadership. You go to s on front dot com for details there. We have EF online, which is
[03:14:49] which is online training for leadership. We have musters where we get together and we get granular
[03:14:56] on leadership. We're executing these this year. The only reason we didn't really, we were going to
[03:15:01] actually one last year, the last one of the year and then I got miss Rona. So we had to freaking
[03:15:06] cancel that thing. But we're doing Orlando May 25, 26 Phoenix, August 17th and 18th Las Vegas,
[03:15:13] October 28th and 29th, go to extremeownership.com. We've sold out every event that we've ever done.
[03:15:21] So and these events are we have less seats because of social distancing and whatnot. So there's
[03:15:27] less seats. So if you want to come get their ASAP, we have EF battlefield where we go out on to actual
[03:15:35] battle fields. The next one's coming up. We're doing the battle. Getty'sburg. We sold out the first
[03:15:39] one. We opened up a second one. Register ASAP if you want to come to that. And if you want to help
[03:15:45] service members active and retired, you want to help their families, you want to help gold star families.
[03:15:50] You can check out Mark Lee's mom. Mark Lee's mom has her own charity organization. And if you
[03:15:55] want to donate or you want to get involved, go to America's mighty warriors dot org. And if you want
[03:16:02] more of my sustained sagas or you want more of Ecos mysterious meandering. You can find us on the
[03:16:13] inner webs on Twitter, Instagram and on Facebook, Ecosat, Equal Charles, I am at joccawillink.
[03:16:18] Dudley. So Dudley can be found at knockonartary.com. And then on Instagram, Facebook and Twitter,
[03:16:25] it's at knockonTV. Yep. What else? Sounds like YouTube. Knockonartary. Yep. Yeah, just instances not on TV.
[03:16:36] Okay, check. Wait. Twitter might be. Twitter is too. I checked in this morning and Facebook
[03:16:42] looks like that too. Echo, you got anything else? Well, yeah, if like I have kids that I want them to
[03:16:49] get in art into art tree, obviously you have you know, direction for that scenario. Oh yeah. Yep. No,
[03:16:55] same exact thing. Doesn't matter the age group, you know, look for a good shop. See if they have
[03:17:00] a good youth program. If not, then dive down the down the YouTube rattle or, you know, follow in social
[03:17:07] media. Try to give some type of free education, you know, if not every day, every other day.
[03:17:13] I mean, a lot of what I do is just trying to help the archery lifestyle and some form or fashion.
[03:17:19] Is there so I got my son, he's for a foe from Amazon. He, it's, and it's like perfect where he puts a lot of effort
[03:17:28] and then he can pull it back. So I remember pulling a compound bow. No, it's like four. Yeah.
[03:17:35] It's the kind where I pulled it back. I was like, oh, he might not be able to do this. And then what when he
[03:17:39] does it, he can do it. But what's interesting? It's you can suction cups or what's it, you know,
[03:17:43] nerve things or what's it you would? I would say a brothel. I don't, yeah, I don't know about all the
[03:17:48] arrow tips heads. But what is it? What does it, what does it, end of it may it looks, it reminds me of
[03:17:54] looks like, you know, the old school, like, you know, if you have archery class at school, you know,
[03:17:58] the thing, like it's, it's not sharp, but it's made to stick into something. Right. The blunt point.
[03:18:04] Yeah, like a bow. Yeah. But it has a little tip to it kind of nice. But you couldn't like cut yourself,
[03:18:10] just by scrap, just by scrap yourself with that. I don't know. But the question is, like, if I just
[03:18:17] buy a random bow like that, is that like a note, like should I not do that? Or is it, honestly,
[03:18:23] with kids that are that young, just let them freaking watch arrows fly and have fun. Okay. That is
[03:18:29] my mindset. A little back and let it rip. Keep them close. So, you know, I tell people, you know,
[03:18:35] kids like playing games that they always went at. So, you know, if you try to make your kids
[03:18:41] shoot a target at your distance, it's going to be problematic, you know, keep it. Keep a target
[03:18:46] big. Keep them close. If they see themselves hitting in the middle, they don't really make the
[03:18:50] correlation of, well, that target's bigger than dads or this one's closer. You know, if you're
[03:18:57] just like, all right, you know, you shoot for the gold. I'm going to shoot for the gold. Let's,
[03:19:01] you know, and if they're like, I beat you again. I beat you again. That's perfect scenario. Yeah.
[03:19:06] Echo Charles, we started talking about making a warrior kid bow. What do you think? I think
[03:19:11] that that's a great idea. Yeah. What age does kind of kid get like a bow that's freaking like
[03:19:18] a little pretty legit? I think probably by seven or eight, they can be going down the right path
[03:19:26] or you can teach some solid fundamentals and get something set up for them. The up, that's the
[03:19:32] warrior kid age too coincidentally. We might have to keep going down that path. Awesome. Do
[03:19:37] the anything else? I'm good. Right. Awesome. Well, like I said earlier, man, thanks for
[03:19:43] thanks for everything you've done for the archery community. Thanks for what you're doing for all
[03:19:47] the vets all over the place and and really, you know, thanks for what you've done for me. I
[03:19:51] know that you, like I said, silver platter, man, it's been freaking awesome. I appreciate it.
[03:19:56] And all you got back from me was a freaking broke man. And a freaking brown paper sack for instruction.
[03:20:04] Just fit. I think you'd nearly drown. I broke your neck and almost drowned you. I'm from the best.
[03:20:10] I'm just in the sad. He calls his friend, Joshua over to like give me a board. So I'm like,
[03:20:17] oh, man, this is freaking awesome. Like he didn't even like deliver the chair. He like had someone
[03:20:23] else made the chair in and then freaking just threw me into the fricking. See, super freaking
[03:20:29] watching me drown. See, we didn't get that 40 foot leash. That was my, my board wrap around my
[03:20:36] 15 times. Yeah. Oh, look, I'm not the best guy in the world. I'm sorry. I appreciate your efforts
[03:20:45] back at me. Thanks for telling us everything you learned today. Like I said, it's not just about
[03:20:49] archery. It's about life. It's about business. This is about moving forward. And thanks to your dad
[03:20:54] and his service and and thanks to all the vets out there and thanks to the current service members
[03:21:01] out there around the world protecting our freedom when you get done with that mission, you're going
[03:21:05] to need a new mission. Check out some archery, man. It's good for you. And to the people out there
[03:21:10] in service, here at home to police law enforcement firefighters, paramedics, EMTs, dispatchers,
[03:21:17] correctional officers, board of patrol, secret service and all the other first responders.
[03:21:22] Thanks for protecting us in our times of need and to everyone else out there. Just remember that
[03:21:30] bow hunting is like life. The wind don't come easy and you don't always win. You don't always win.
[03:21:40] But you still have to prepare. You still have to get the reps. You still have to go through the process
[03:21:47] and you have to keep going. Keep trying to improve so that you can get what you are after.
[03:21:56] And until next time, this is John Dudley, Enico and Jocco out.