Jocko Podcast 26 - with Echo Charles | Omaha Beach & Beyond | Surfing | Flanking

2016-06-10T20:08:40Z

Join the conversation on Twitter: @jockowillink @echocharles 0:00:00 – Opening 0:04:09 – “Omaha Beach and Beyond” Book Review 1:10:28 – Internet, Onnit Stuff 1:13:39 – Jocko Surfing 1:23:37 – Relax During Jiu Jitsu 1:31:36 – Tactics that deviate from The Art of War 1:35:49 – How do SEALS reconcile facing death? 1:46:34 – Taking Suggestions as a Leader 1:53:51 – More on Flanking 2:00:00 – Turning off “Manipulation” 2:09:25 – How do you stay Motivated?

AI summary of episode

and it's a little bit of the high ground and now going back to the book we began to think about defending against the expected counter attack that we were told would take place in less than 24 hours to bolster our defenses we took turns making special trips back to the still dangerous beach in order to find more automatic weapons ammo and supplies when it was my turn to go down I was horrified at what I saw the debris strewn beach was a disaster area the incoming flooding tide brought with it the bodies of hundreds of our proud regimen scores of our men with bloodstained shirts rolled in the serve among helmets assault jackets gas masks and M1 rifles at the edge of the water I saw burning landing craft that had been trying to deposit a Sherman tank down its ramp the tank was also burning in abandoned from our perspective the battle looked hopeless you know that's something that he said that a couple times he didn't think they were going to win you know despite what can't say they were not going to give up any ground we're guess what I don't know if we're going to be able to hold this ground we might all die here and yet all these men pressed on here's a little here's a little look at the German attitude right here I saw regimental intelligence officer armed with a carbine interrogating a German prisoner the prisoner was on his knees with his hands behind his head he was rather small and frail looking I was surprised to see he was not wearing the usual square shaped battle helmet instead he wore a gray build cap the lieutenant asked the prisoner among other things where the mine fields were the soldier answered only with the accepted Geneva convention requirement of name rank and serial number we had been instructed not to take prisoners for the first two or three days I mean there was times where then this is really famous there was times where they got out of the trenches and played soccer on Christmas day against each other and then the next day go back to slaughter each other crazy that must feel in in this weird way that must feel so good you know to be like like you know like you ever gotten like when you're a kid or even as an adult when you get you know like a argument with someone real bad maybe your friend or or not whatever you get a real bad argument with them and I don't know it lasted there too and they hold up and every one of these head drills becomes like a mini battle and their brutal battles back to the book the site of another terrible death that occurred at this time haunts my dreams to this day my squadron I were digging a machine gun in place may be behind a scrubby head drill we had just finished fixing the camouflage when it happens to you junior officer with field glasses scanning the front I could tell he was a newly arrived replacement his uniform and equipment were relatively new and unworn the sharp report of an 88 millimeter fired from some somewhere nearby and sent me diving at the same time the high explosive missile hit the lieutenant's upper torso the second squadron I were splattered with gore as the spotter was blown backward minus his head number two gunner private first class sal artery vomited and I nearly did too the dreaded German sniper was almost as highly respected as the 88 sharpers shooters gave no warning taking careful aim with sniper scoped mousers the receiving end would hear the sharp crack and instantaneous wind of the bullet if you heard the report of the bullet leaving the muzzle it wasn't for you German snipers nearly always aimed for the head if it was visible and in range most infantry men never removed their helmets except when they shaved and I confess that I slept in mind the 8 millimeter bullet could easily pass through the helmet through the head and out the other side with enough energy left to do more damage I saw men get hit between the eyes or just above the years which killed them instantly if the bullet missed the helmet the entry hole was usually neat and showed only a small trickle of blood but after the steel jacket bullet hit the helmet or the skull the bullet flattened causing the wound to shatter the other side of the head away this start receiving more fire he jumps for cover and then back to the book I climbed back on the path shaking but unscathed within minutes I had another surprise as I approached an opening on the right side of the head draw I heard someone moaning crawling carefully through the opening I came face to face with a young German paratrooper who had been hit by a large chunk of shrapnel he had a very serious upper thigh wound and his left trouser leg was bloody and torn this was my first encounter with the enemy up close the German paratrooper is a fierce and fanatical warrior easily distinguishable by his round helmet and baggy smock my first reaction was to put him out of his misery and keep going I believe he knew what I was thinking he begged dearfully comrade bitta to means friend please he was an impressive looking young soldier about 19 years old my age he was as filthy as I was with long brown stringy hair I'd always thought most German soldiers had short blonde hair he had an athletic build about five feet 10 inches tall about 180 pounds and a handsome face I suspended the promise I had made at the beach about not taking any prisoners I thought this that was then and this is now I just couldn't shoot a wounded human being at point blank range I made sure he didn't have a weapon hidden on him then I tied his belt around his upper thigh which stopped the blood from gushing I gently swabbed the dirt from his wound and applied sulfur powder his winds turned to a forest grin he was in pain so you had I mean you we we we we know that people will fight to the death we know that they get brainwashed him when you look at any history this this sounds like a young kid probably raised from the young very young age as a Nazi as a loyal Nazi just like the Japanese that fall to the death that's what we have here in many cases back to the book combat deaths are ugly and sickening a bullet or piece of red hot shrapnel tears flesh gristle and bone into gruesome wounds a few hours in the sun causes a body to swell grotesquely and turn dark purple the stench is unbearable such deaths were tragic insults to all those handsome young geys just beginning their lives who would not fulfill their dreams many of those killed were like me barely teenagers when they enlisted just starting to grow to maturity in the army those comrades and I spent many happy weekends and furloughs together soaking up culture and drinking bidders shared living quarters ready each other's mail and more significantly shared the misery of training in the most extreme developments the hundred and sixteenth infantry lost from 800 to 1000 men on D. Day and D. Company lost at least 72 of the dead 20 of them were from my hometown of Roanoke five of nine of our officers were killed including capital wall curshilling lieutenant William Gardner lieutenant Merrill Cummings lieutenant Vincent Lobowitz and lieutenant Alton Ashley there were 12 noncombs killed including these rowanokers sergeant James Obenchane staff sergeant You know, I see how I see the difference now in the time where I didn't really know how to relax versus even like the time where I thought I knew how to relax, but after, you know, a 10 minutes, oh, dying versus, you know, now where you can go 10, 20 hard, you know, in fine place where you could relax and be able to basically control the scenarios where you can't relax. I hope you get it when you see your friends wounded and killed two learn to take care of yourself from the start remember the hunt is a crafty intelligent fighter and will not have mercy on you don't have it on him he will try to outwit you beyond the alert three fighting awards the same as any athletic event only wars for keeps it is you or the enemy teamwork is the essence of success we have the tools the best in the world and is up to you to see that they are used properly four remember when you run into the enemy contain him with the minimum to stop him then move around him and strike him in the flank or the rear in all your contacts with him be ruthless always drive hard the hunt doesn't like Yankee drive and guts show him that you have plenty if you close with him use your bayonet show him you can take it and dish it out don't be caught napping don't let your Yankee curiosity get you blown up by a booby trap or a mine five take care of your arms and equipment conserve your ammunition make every shot count keep your weapons clean and oiled their proper functioning at the right time may mean your life every soldier must realize the importance of supply discipline and see that he himself does his part in conserving supplies more than one battle has been lost because munitions and other supplies were not available six do not eat your K and D rations prior to D day D plus one day you won't get anymore until D plus two seven the Navy and air will give us plenty of support general Montgomery was very optimistic and is talked to the officers yesterday at this dip at this time no one knows how much resistance we will meet on D day we may be able to walk in without trouble we may have to fight for your life to meet the worst and make up your minds now that you're going forward regardless and it is a one way ticket we are not giving any ground at any time and we are not leaving until the job is done to each one of you happy landings and come off those craft fight like hell can't um lays it out definitely lays it out You know, you know, you're saying like sometimes where, you know, as a leader, you might be reluctant to ask for suggestions because you might come up like an experience or something like that. or we got to know whatever it's real bad and at the end you guys make up and you guys are like back friends again it's almost like it's such a good feeling maybe because of the contrast or I don't know maybe because I don't know Yeah, because you know how like you're a regional, um, one of your regional things was, you know, you go through life and certain people all they see is is the good thing so they get kind of desensitized to like the just small little good things in life. so we got to know that this demon that we're dealing with now has been around for a long time and you know that's a classic situation where his death Stan Corsiac's death is reported as a non-battle casualty which means no one labeled him a suicide which means how many people did that happen to and it was never captured they wasn't reported and so now we never dealt with it that if you don't deal with things you don't capture the lessons learned if you don't recognize these things how you get a fixum as Bob Slotter pointed out it was almost impossible for one of these guys to go day after day after day and not get wounded and he ended up getting wounded got trapped in a fragment of the bag gets pulled off the battlefield luckily and sent to an English hospital and here's what he says about that it is one thing to visit a wartime army hospital but something quite different and much worse to be a patient in one. so back to the book after I fired my M1 it jammed to clean it I slipped out of my assault jacket and spread my raincoat only to discover bullet holes in my pack and coat suddenly overwhelmed with fear I became weak in the knees my hands shook as I tried to wipe sand from my weapon I had to catch my breath and compose myself by mid morning we had worked out worked our way to the base of the hill men from other units began to gather the regimental commander Colonel Charles DWCanim appeared from down beach with his right arm in a sling and clutch clutching a coat 45 semi-automatic pistol in his bony left hand can't him didn't look like a soldier but his sir's hell was one he was tall and thin were wire rimmed glasses and had a pencil thin mustache he yelled for the officers and noncombs to help him get the men across the beach and up the hill get these men the hell off this god damn beach and go kill some god damn crowds in a nearby pill box a young a lieutenant Colonel taking refuge from the enemy mortar barrage yelled out to cannon Colonel you better take cover you're gonna get killed Colonel canom screamed his reply get your ass out of there and help me get these men off this beach the officer did what cannon ordered so now we got somebody leading serious leader and in the book slaughter put the memorandum from canom that canom wrote to the troops prior to D day and I wore a pitiful sight find yellow dust sifted through the cracks and the roof and stuck to our sweaty skin and eyes if the dust it had been black we would have looked like very tired coal miners the yellow dust turned a mud around our swollen bloodshot eyes when nature called we had to answer in the safety of our slit trunch lying down all the training and experience in the world could not have prepared us for this kind of harassment those box our boxed car side shells sounded like they were flip flopping and over and and screeching straight for our whole this went on hour after hour all day and through the night many good soldiers cracked and who could blame them the long bouts of duty had been taking their toll it was extremely rare for an infantry men to go unscathed for very long many twenty-niners were wounded two three or four times fighting through the hedgeros of Normandy all of us were praying for the million dollar wound which missed vital organs bone and nerves but would give us a long stay in an English hospital sleeping under clean white sheets and at least in fantasy in the care of a beautiful nurse meanwhile battle fatigue and self-inflicted wounds had become serious problems at least once nearly all combat soldiers if they are honest consider shooting themselves in order to get out of the hell of battle self-inflicted wounds however are considered disgraceful and if proven in a court martial offense nevertheless many respectable kia and wounded in action were in reality self-inflicted or friendly fire accidents and then even and it impacted both of them obviously you know where the guy was like hey god bless almost like came in we're in this war I dig it almost like a football gamer something like amen I dig it And then you know, all like, we talked about this before, where if you don't know what you're doing, but you're acting like, you know, you're a pro. Nonetheless, the point is, if you start carrying on, you know, you don't know that you need suggestions, and you say, you know, whatever, I'm just going to move forward by thinking to smell that on you, that you're black like that. yeah that could have happened to you just never know thank now we're gonna start getting crushed with some artillery back to the book Jerry pounded the 116th all day and two nights with blockbuster 155 millimeter and 105 millimeter artillery near misses caused enough concussion to make our ears ring and our heads ache the pounding rounds of salvo after salvo of earthshaking artillery will relentless and frightening during the bombardment I shared a long shallow slit trance with one of my first decompany replacements private Lewis Cass from Chevy Chase Maryland we nicknamed him junior early on because of his boyish looks and demeanor junior was from an affluent family and had volunteered into the army upon graduation from high school he didn't look like the type that could last very long in brutal combat our slit trunch was covered with wooden sheathing atop through the roof of piled dirt like thousands of other infantry soldiers subjected to such heavy bombardment junior So I think I think with other people, you know, some people obviously are not by the ocean, but you know, with anything outside, running hiking, biking, swimming, even playing outdoor sports, like soccer, and shooting basketball outside. yeah does it kind of in a way put into perspective but more shed the light shed light on potentially the overall attitude where you're fighting a war and the enemy is more this entity of an enemy you know it's not like how many kicked this guy's I'm sure it's like it's not personal but it's like it has to have like that kind of feeling when you're in this crazy war you're like I hate this so much hatred and just aggression and opposite you gotta remember this is there's plenty of guys and there's plenty of Germans I got smoked right there without a second Like, you know, well, I don't know if you've been bullied in school, but um, like, if someone's looking for you, they're mad at you or whatever. Well, you know, you got like even Kelly Slater who's, you know, what is either 11-time, 12-time champion of the world in surfing? If you need a suggestion and you're like, oh, I don't want to sound like that or whatever, and you say, you know, whatever, I'm just going to go hit move forward anyway.

Most common words

Episode transcript

[00:00:00] This is Jocco podcast number 26 with echo Charles and me, Jocco Willink.
[00:00:11] O for a voice like thunder and a tongue to drown the throat of war.
[00:00:19] When the senses are shaken and the soul is driven to madness who can stand
[00:00:24] when the souls of the oppressed fight in the troubled air that rages who can stand.
[00:00:34] When the whirlwind of fury comes from the throne of God,
[00:00:39] when the frowns of his countenance drive the nations together who can stand.
[00:00:46] When sin claps his broad wings over the battle and sails rejoicing in the flood of death,
[00:00:57] when souls are torn to everlasting fire and feans of hell rejoice upon the slain.
[00:01:04] O who can stand. Good evening echo. Good evening.
[00:01:21] That right there is a little excerpt of a poem by a guy named William Blake.
[00:01:27] And it paints war as something so powerful, so evil, something superhuman.
[00:01:50] In the full poem is really a statement against a born-a-g, as it goes on and it's not that much
[00:01:56] longer but it blames war on the politicians and on the kings and on the nobles and it blames
[00:02:03] war on the religious leaders. But he asked that question over and over again who can stand.
[00:02:16] And I can actually answer that question.
[00:02:18] And I've seen who can stand. I've seen people break but I have seen many brave men and women
[00:02:29] on the battlefield stand. Stand against fear and death and stand against evil.
[00:02:38] Stand as sin claps his broad wings over the battle and sails rejoicing in the flood of death.
[00:02:55] And that's William Blake. Those are his words but he's writing that in the late 1700s and early 1800s.
[00:03:02] He had no idea how bad war would get. And I'm not saying war is worse in terms of individual
[00:03:15] horror but in terms of scale, it can't be denied. I mean world war one in world war two, the scale of
[00:03:22] horror, it would be incomprehensible to a man from Blake's time. He just couldn't understand it.
[00:03:38] So let's go to June 6, 1944.
[00:03:43] As the demon spread his wings over the beaches of Normandy and man stood against his evil.
[00:04:00] The English cocks and tried to drop the ramp a couple hundred feet from the shore when
[00:04:13] the sergeant ordered. Take us all the way in. Just then machine guns opened up and bullets
[00:04:20] tore through the wooden sides of the landing craft. Wounding four or five men, men began screaming,
[00:04:27] opened the damn doors. Just as the ramp went down there was a pause in the incoming fire.
[00:04:33] We exited fast diving into the water and holding on. Sergeant Tron was lying next to me when
[00:04:39] he was shot through the wrist. I crawled over to him and gave him first aid. We just let the
[00:04:44] tide wash over the lower portion of our bodies using our fingernails to pull forward, inch by inch
[00:04:51] to keep from drowning. I looked back at our assault craft and both English sailors were dead.
[00:04:58] They were heroes and paid the price for getting us in. They risked their safety to get us closer to
[00:05:05] shore. Private Thomas McCarter was the first fatality in our sector. His cries to me for help
[00:05:17] still haunt me. Waded down and possibly wounded. He frantically struggled in the water as he cried
[00:05:24] my name, but I couldn't get to him. It was drilled into us that we must push forward to the objective
[00:05:30] and to let the medics take care of the wounded. We were subjected to grazing fire from Chris
[00:05:37] costing fire from machine guns. I believed at the time that it would be better for me to push
[00:05:43] forward since Tom was quite far away. These machine guns kept firing until we got to the sea wall.
[00:05:53] Tom was my friend and I should have tried to save him.
[00:06:01] It took individual riflemen using grenades, satchel charges and bayonets to neutralize the
[00:06:07] almost impregnable concrete bunkers. I didn't see any rangers until later. In my opinion,
[00:06:14] the air force and navy made it possible for us to hang on until reinforcements and more equipment
[00:06:19] arrived. They also kept the Germans from mounting an armored counter attack.
[00:06:24] But you know, it boils down to the bloody foot soldier and his rifle to hold on to the real estate.
[00:06:39] That right there was private first class ran off a gentleman company d
[00:06:47] 116th infantry 27 years old, d 27 years old on d day, a mortar gunner.
[00:07:02] Now we're going to hear from private first class George A. Kobe company d 116th infantry.
[00:07:09] 600 yards from the shore, the English cox and lost his nerve and slowed the engine.
[00:07:19] This improved the Germans opportunity to hit our boat. Captain's shielding was looking
[00:07:23] through the vision slit. Look back at the sailor and said, you're not going to drop that ramp here.
[00:07:29] Technical sergeant Stinett was standing next to the captain.
[00:07:33] Suddenly an 88 millimeter hit the ramp directly, blowing captain's shielding blackward,
[00:07:38] killing him instantly. Part of the ramp caught Stinett's left eye knocking it out.
[00:07:47] With John Sefko, Vic Cremone and Eugene Adrian, we finally made it to the sea wall.
[00:07:55] How I'll never know. It was the worst fire I was ever subjected to in all of my combat.
[00:08:03] Now we've got private first class Robert L. sales company B 116th infantry.
[00:08:16] Join the Virginia National Guard at age 15.
[00:08:25] About 100 yards from the shore, the English cox and said he couldn't get us any closer.
[00:08:30] As the ramp lowered, enemy machine guns opened up, firing directly into our boat.
[00:08:38] Like all great leaders, Captain Zap was the first off the boat and the first one to get hit.
[00:08:46] Staff Sergeant Dick Wright was second and also hit falling into the water.
[00:08:53] A medic was third and I didn't see what happened to him. I was fourth.
[00:08:57] I caught my heel in the ramp and fell sideways out of the path of that MG 42 undoubtedly saving my life.
[00:09:06] All of the men that followed were either killed by Germans or drowned.
[00:09:11] No one from my craft was ever found alive.
[00:09:18] The captain screamed, I'm hit. I tried to get to him, but he was lost in the surf.
[00:09:23] Men were all around me in the water bleeding from wounds and screaming for help.
[00:09:30] I knew the boat was the target so I got away from it as fast as I could.
[00:09:35] One of the first things I did was shed my SCR 300 radio and my assault jacket.
[00:09:42] That radio was heavy and I suppose it's still at the bottom of the channel.
[00:09:45] Mortar and artillery shells were landing all around and one hit so close that it knocked me groggy.
[00:09:53] Luckily a log floated by with an unexploded teller mine still attached.
[00:09:59] I grabbed hold of it until my head cleared a bit.
[00:10:03] I remained behind that log pushing an informe me using it as a shield as I reached dry until I reached
[00:10:08] dry land. The first person I saw in the beach that I recognized was Dick Wright.
[00:10:14] He haulered over to me that he was badly hit. I watched him trying to raise his arms,
[00:10:21] but a sniper spotted him and shot him through the head. His face fell into the sand never to move again.
[00:10:30] I didn't try to go to him because I knew he was dead.
[00:10:35] While pinned down on that beach I watched incoming landing craft being shot at.
[00:10:40] One of them carried the battalion surgeon, Captain Robert B. Ware, a man I knew from my
[00:10:46] hometown of Madison Heights, Virginia. The doctor had flaming red hair. I watched him as he
[00:10:53] disembarked the landing craft and that machine gun opened up, cutting him down.
[00:10:59] When I will never forget, we're seeing his helmet fly off his head and showing all that red hair.
[00:11:04] I crawled on my belly using the dead and wounded as a shield.
[00:11:11] Sometime later I saw Max Smith from Shepherd Town, West Virginia.
[00:11:18] And some other B company men taking shelter behind a sea wall.
[00:11:22] Some of them were badly wounded. I banded Smith's eye that was lying out of his face.
[00:11:28] I kept crawling back to the water's edge dragging men out if they were still living.
[00:11:32] I didn't bother if they were dead. I pulled quite a few to safety.
[00:11:37] One of the medics helped to give first aid and comfort to the wounded.
[00:11:42] The first enemy soldier I saw was a prisoner.
[00:11:46] And terrorigators had him on his knees and his hands were locked behind his head.
[00:11:53] He didn't look so tough to me but those guys up on the cliffs were plenty tough.
[00:11:57] You can't imagine how helpless it was to be lying on that beach and those machine guns and sniper shooting anything that moved.
[00:12:06] At this point we were not sure the invasion would succeed.
[00:12:11] Our company was shot up so badly that there was no organization or communication from other sectors to tell us how they were doing.
[00:12:20] If all the landing zones were as helpless as we were, the invasion was in jeopardy.
[00:12:24] We felt helpless and alone.
[00:12:29] We had many acts of heroism from B company, men with many of them unreported.
[00:12:36] Lieutenant William B. Williams single-handedly with hand grenades and a rifle charged and subdued a pill box.
[00:12:45] Sergeant William Pears and Odeal Paget survived the landing better than we did and were able to take a few
[00:12:51] men up to those rocks and cliffs and fight it out with the Germans.
[00:12:55] It was touching go for quite some time in our sector.
[00:13:01] Not until St. Lofel and Jalide did we know for sure that the invasion was a success.
[00:13:07] D-Day was indeed the longest day but there were many many long days after that.
[00:13:14] Day after bloody day it was jumping over those hedgeros and men getting killed.
[00:13:18] We lost some very good men every single day. St. Lofel was about 25 miles from the beach and it was
[00:13:27] liberated on July 18th. When St. Lofel we felt confident that we were in France to stay,
[00:13:36] surviving the war was another story.
[00:13:39] So those were some excerpts right there from a book by John Robert Slotter.
[00:13:56] The book is called Omaha Beach and Beyond the Long March of Sergeant Bob Slotter.
[00:14:03] Those excerpts that I just read, they weren't Bob Slotter. They were various other people that
[00:14:07] worked with him that he went back and interviewed. This is another guy born in Tennessee,
[00:14:17] grew up in Rowan Oak, Virginia, enlisted in the Army Reserves at age 15.
[00:14:27] And as he's given an intro to the book here, this is what he says.
[00:14:34] I remember buddies with whom I spent passes to London.
[00:14:39] Men I played cards with a couple of days before the landing, who signed their autographs on my
[00:14:44] Eisenhower D. Day missive, who shook hands with me on the Javelins deck.
[00:14:51] Young man, young man, as I was, all killed during the largest air land and sea battle ever fought.
[00:14:59] Many more were maimed and never seen again. How could I forget this epic event even if I failed
[00:15:08] to recall the proper names and faces? Men wars are not history, but history is someone's recorded
[00:15:17] memory. Most of us remember noble and heroic deeds, but conveniently forget or fail to record
[00:15:28] the less than noble. I am no different. Many times I did and saw things that are best for gotten
[00:15:37] or left on written. War brings out the best and the worst in most of us. The Nazis were accused
[00:15:47] of killing, raping, pillaging, and burning. A few on our side were also guilty of these crimes.
[00:15:54] Soldiers on both sides looted for souvenirs as did I. And yet, cruel treatment of the enemy
[00:16:04] was an unusual occurrence. I myself am proud to say that I want saved an enemy soldier's life.
[00:16:14] This book will attempt to show that ordinary men and women can do extraordinary
[00:16:18] feats if they believe the cause is great. Many GIs have said that they were merely fighting for
[00:16:25] each other. True, but I maintain another factor played in a more important role, and it can be
[00:16:32] summed up with one word, pride. Regardless of their motives, I saw very few cowards in the
[00:16:42] 116th Infantry Regiment, made God bless the many, many more heroes.
[00:16:51] Yeah, this is one of those books where I don't have a lot to add in some of these situations.
[00:17:01] Now, Bob Slotter was his nickname Bob Slotter, and when he got to England, they actually took
[00:17:14] him and a bunch of other soldiers and they formed him into a new unit called the 29th Rangers.
[00:17:20] And they trained these guys ultra hard. They did all kinds of stuff for 11 months getting ready
[00:17:28] for the invasion. These 29th Rangers, they did marching in mountain climbing in a crazy obstacle course.
[00:17:36] They trained in unarmed combat. They did log PT, cold weather training. I mean, just grueling training.
[00:17:45] And at the end of all that harsh training for a number of reasons, they actually disbanded
[00:17:52] this group, and they sent them all back with their regular units. So they had a group of guys that
[00:17:58] got trained super hard, you know, like what we would consider a modern sort of special operation
[00:18:03] selection course. They went through that, but then when they got done with this training,
[00:18:09] and they were getting ready for the actual invasion, they took them dispersed them amongst the regular
[00:18:15] troops. And the guy that ran this training for the 29th Rangers was a guy named major mill
[00:18:25] Holland. And he sent a letter to his daughter, and this is what he wrote. And this is after these guys
[00:18:32] got disbanded. He said, every boy should be made to play football and box and participate in all
[00:18:40] kinds of athletics. And above all, the Americans should be taught discipline and decent living.
[00:18:49] Then he should be given a year of the toughest kind of military training, not the kind that we know,
[00:18:54] but the kind I gave my Rangers. God, I wish I had those boys now. We would tear the German
[00:19:01] stringy. I hear of those boys now and then, and although they are almost all gone now,
[00:19:09] they have done unbelievable things in our spoken of almost in a tone of reverence by officers and
[00:19:15] men alike who have fought with them, they were men trained and trained hard and learned about
[00:19:28] discipline. The parents out there get your kids training, sports, decent living.
[00:19:37] That's how you make men. Now, fast-forwarding, because they went back to their regular army units
[00:19:51] and they continued to train and prepared for the invasion. And Bob Slotters assigned to
[00:19:58] D Company, 116th Infantry Division. And I'm fast-forwarding right now, straight to D Day,
[00:20:09] straight to his perception of D Day and what it was like for him.
[00:20:19] You know, this is all that training that these guys have been through
[00:20:24] and none of them had been the car of that before. So this is it. Their first operation is D Day.
[00:20:38] And this is what it's like back to the book about 150 yards from the shore,
[00:20:45] despite the warning from someone behind me to keep your head down, I cautiously peeped up.
[00:20:50] I could see that craft that the craft about 25 yards to a right and a couple of hundred yards ahead
[00:20:56] were targeted by small arms. Firing, tracing, trace or bullets skipped off,
[00:21:02] skipped and bounced off the ramp and sides as they zeroed in before the ramps fell.
[00:21:08] I said to anyone close enough to hear above the bed them. Men, we are going to catch hell,
[00:21:14] be ready. Then it began to happen. Enemy artillery and mortar shells sent great
[00:21:22] plumes of water spouting skyward as they exploded in the water. Near Mrs. Rainedus with sea water,
[00:21:30] I suddenly became very worried about what Jerry would do to us.
[00:21:35] How in the hell did those sons of bitches survive what we thought was a carpet bombing and un-shelling
[00:21:42] of the beach? At Slapped in Sands, we trained with live explosions but these were far more frightening.
[00:21:51] This time they were shooting to kill every one of us.
[00:21:57] The craft slowed as we scraped a submerged sandbar which kept us from a dry landing.
[00:22:03] Everyone wanted to get the hell off that rocking boat but the cox and that trouble dropping the steel ramp.
[00:22:08] When it finally slammed and splashed down, the front of the boat began to buck like a wild
[00:22:13] stallion, raising six or seven feet, turning slightly sideways and then slamming down again.
[00:22:20] The first men went to exit off about mid-Ramp. The craft surged forward and crushed the
[00:22:26] fort-porfellow to death. So I jumped off and moved away from the crazy erratic landing craft.
[00:22:35] Luckily, I didn't see anyone else get hit by the ramp.
[00:22:40] I was now struggling in water up to my armpits,
[00:22:43] luckily for me at six foot five, most of the time my head was above water.
[00:22:48] Later as I crossed the beach, my height would be a detriment making me a larger target.
[00:22:54] Meanwhile, as I tried to get to shore, shorter men grabbed my clothing to keep their heads above water.
[00:23:00] Suddenly, as fear replaced seasickness, I was no longer cold.
[00:23:06] Most of all, I feared I would drown after being shot.
[00:23:09] Snipers hiding in the bluffs hit quite a few men, but most of the damage came from rapid firing
[00:23:16] automatic weapons. In every war since gunpowder was invented, soldiers have experienced the
[00:23:24] dreaded feeling of being under live enemy fire for the first time.
[00:23:28] It was demoralizing to hear good men scream as bullets ripped into soft flesh and others scream
[00:23:36] as the fierce flooding tide dragged the non-swimmers under.
[00:23:44] I remember helping private earnest, McCandless, who was struggling to get closer in.
[00:23:51] He still had one of the precious boxes of 30 caliber machine gun ammo.
[00:23:55] I remember him shouting to me, slaughter. Are we going to get through all of this?
[00:24:00] I didn't know how to answer him, so I didn't say anything. To tell the truth,
[00:24:06] I thought we were all going to die.
[00:24:11] A body with its life-perferred, preserved, inflated, floated by.
[00:24:15] The face had turned already turned a dark purple.
[00:24:19] At first, I thought it was private, Richard Gomez, who had a dark complexion.
[00:24:23] But I later found out that Gomez had survived the day.
[00:24:27] The fellow I saw was just one of thousands who died.
[00:24:31] There is no way to be sure if I had known him.
[00:24:34] Many of our company were hit in the water and drowned. Good swimmers are not.
[00:24:40] I came ashore, surrounded by the screams of men who had been hit and were drowning under their
[00:24:46] ponderous loads. All around me, dead men floated in the water, along with live men who acted as if they
[00:24:53] were dead. The Germans couldn't tell which was which. The flooding tide washed everyone in.
[00:25:03] Lying at the edge of the high watermark, I watched a GI trying to cross the beach.
[00:25:09] He had a hard time running. I believe he was from the craft to our right.
[00:25:12] An enemy gunner cut him down and he staggered and fell to the sand.
[00:25:18] I can still hear the screaming. A well-marked medical corpsman moved quickly to help him.
[00:25:24] He was also shot. I'll never forget seeing that medic lying next to that dying soldier,
[00:25:30] both screaming for help. Within minutes, as I watched, both men fell silent and mercifully
[00:25:39] died. I saw men vomit at the sickening sites and others cried openly and unashamedly.
[00:25:50] All of us had to find it within ourselves to get across that sandy no man's land.
[00:25:56] This is where the army's strict discipline and rigorous training took over.
[00:26:01] Individual pride had a lot to do with it too. What an unbelievable first combat experience for
[00:26:20] these guys. I want you to think about that image of you're in a boat. You're a couple hundred
[00:26:28] meters off shore, maybe two or three hundred meters off shore and you're looking two hundred meters ahead of
[00:26:33] you and you're starting to see tracers impact on this boat that you know your next.
[00:26:41] You know your next. There's no turning back. There's the only thing you can do. There's nothing's
[00:26:46] going to stop it. Did you saw Sabie in private right? Yes. Yes. So to me, they did a good job in capturing
[00:26:57] that moment where everyone's like it's like real tans and you can slowly start to hear the
[00:27:02] boom boom and the way it kind of builds and builds and how chaotic it gets man. It's like the most
[00:27:08] especially at that time is one of the most real feeling movies you know and having more that.
[00:27:16] They did an outstanding job and they did an outstanding job in that opening stage. It's just so crazy
[00:27:21] like to hear the real account right and then kind of compare it and you know when you watch the
[00:27:28] movie you're like dang that's crazy that's because you're kind of involved in the movie but when you
[00:27:33] think more and you're like dang this this really happened this is what really happened. Yeah and
[00:27:38] and also I mean obviously the actors do a good job of portraying what's going on in their minds
[00:27:45] but this is what was going on. Yeah this is what you was thinking. Yeah. Seeing they Steven Spielberg
[00:27:53] put those guys through these harsh conditions during that you know so they'd kind of
[00:27:58] some little Hollywood bootcare. Yeah but even while they're filming it you know to kind of help
[00:28:03] capture I mean obviously it's you can't compare it to the real deal. They did an outstanding job
[00:28:09] and the first time I saw that scene I was I was impacted. Yeah I was I was definitely impacted
[00:28:18] you know and I remember I wasn't with my guys in Ramadi they were honored not there were
[00:28:26] really hellacious situation and they were in a in a Bradley fighting vehicle and as they were
[00:28:36] going on to target they they were hearing rounds hit the outside of the Bradley as they were
[00:28:41] getting as the ramp was about to go down and actually I think I I can't remember this 100% but I'm
[00:28:48] pretty sure that the the young officer in that vehicle I remember him telling me I remember
[00:28:53] him telling me about he was like damn but he said he was screaming don't put the ramp down
[00:29:00] like just leave it up don't we're getting shot at and they're ready to come here so they just
[00:29:04] put the ramp down anyways so they didn't what he did you just go yeah yeah so back to the book
[00:29:17] after I fired my M1 it jammed to clean it I slipped out of my assault jacket and spread my
[00:29:24] raincoat only to discover bullet holes in my pack and coat suddenly overwhelmed with fear I
[00:29:32] became weak in the knees my hands shook as I tried to wipe sand from my weapon I had to catch my
[00:29:40] breath and compose myself by mid morning we had worked out worked our way to the base of the hill
[00:29:52] men from other units began to gather the regimental commander Colonel Charles DWCanim appeared
[00:30:00] from down beach with his right arm in a sling and clutch clutching a coat 45 semi-automatic
[00:30:06] pistol in his bony left hand can't him didn't look like a soldier but his sir's hell was one
[00:30:14] he was tall and thin were wire rimmed glasses and had a pencil thin mustache he yelled for the
[00:30:20] officers and noncombs to help him get the men across the beach and up the hill get these men
[00:30:28] the hell off this god damn beach and go kill some god damn crowds in a nearby pill box a
[00:30:35] young a lieutenant Colonel taking refuge from the enemy mortar barrage yelled out to cannon Colonel
[00:30:41] you better take cover you're gonna get killed Colonel canom screamed his reply get your ass out of there
[00:30:48] and help me get these men off this beach the officer did what cannon ordered
[00:30:54] so now we got somebody leading serious leader and in the book slaughter put the memorandum
[00:31:10] from canom that canom wrote to the troops prior to D day so I'm gonna read that 29 May
[00:31:19] 1944 memorandum two the members of CT 116 reinforced to be read by commanders to all personnel
[00:31:30] prior to embarkation one the long awaited day is near and prior to embarkation I want to wish
[00:31:39] each of you the best of luck in your forthcoming adventure there's one certain way to get the
[00:31:46] enemy out of action and that is to kill him war is not child's play and requires hatred for the
[00:31:53] enemy at this time we don't have it I hope you get it when you see your friends wounded and killed
[00:32:04] two learn to take care of yourself from the start remember the hunt is a crafty intelligent
[00:32:10] fighter and will not have mercy on you don't have it on him he will try to outwit you
[00:32:19] beyond the alert three fighting awards the same as any athletic event only wars for keeps
[00:32:29] it is you or the enemy teamwork is the essence of success we have the tools the best in the
[00:32:36] world and is up to you to see that they are used properly four remember when you run into the
[00:32:45] enemy contain him with the minimum to stop him then move around him and strike him in the flank
[00:32:50] or the rear in all your contacts with him be ruthless always drive hard the hunt doesn't like
[00:32:59] Yankee drive and guts show him that you have plenty if you close with him use your bayonet
[00:33:08] show him you can take it and dish it out don't be caught napping don't let your Yankee curiosity
[00:33:14] get you blown up by a booby trap or a mine five take care of your arms and equipment
[00:33:22] conserve your ammunition make every shot count keep your weapons clean and oiled their proper
[00:33:31] functioning at the right time may mean your life every soldier must realize the importance of
[00:33:38] supply discipline and see that he himself does his part in conserving supplies more than one battle
[00:33:44] has been lost because munitions and other supplies were not available six do not eat your
[00:33:52] K and D rations prior to D day D plus one day you won't get anymore until D plus two
[00:34:02] seven the Navy and air will give us plenty of support general Montgomery was very optimistic
[00:34:08] and is talked to the officers yesterday at this dip at this time no one knows how much resistance
[00:34:14] we will meet on D day we may be able to walk in without trouble we may have to fight for your life
[00:34:20] to meet the worst and make up your minds now that you're going forward regardless and it is a one way
[00:34:29] ticket we are not giving any ground at any time and we are not leaving until the job is done
[00:34:41] to each one of you happy landings and come off those craft fight like hell
[00:34:46] can't um
[00:34:57] lays it out definitely lays it out I think those guys
[00:35:08] I think those guys couldn't have heard any better information
[00:35:12] keep clean keep discipline be ready flank the enemy always hear that flank the enemy
[00:35:27] so now these guys are in kind of an in a holding position they've they've kind of secured
[00:35:34] some chunks of the beach and it's a little bit of the high ground and now going back to the book
[00:35:39] we began to think about defending against the expected counter attack that we were told would take
[00:35:44] place in less than 24 hours to bolster our defenses we took turns making special trips back to the
[00:35:50] still dangerous beach in order to find more automatic weapons ammo and supplies
[00:35:57] when it was my turn to go down I was horrified at what I saw
[00:36:02] the debris strewn beach was a disaster area the incoming flooding tide brought with it the
[00:36:09] bodies of hundreds of our proud regimen scores of our men with bloodstained shirts rolled in the
[00:36:15] serve among helmets assault jackets gas masks and M1 rifles at the edge of the water I saw
[00:36:24] burning landing craft that had been trying to deposit a Sherman tank down its ramp the tank was
[00:36:32] also burning in abandoned from our perspective the battle looked hopeless you know that's something
[00:36:41] that he said that a couple times he didn't think they were going to win you know despite what
[00:36:48] can't say they were not going to give up any ground we're guess what I don't know if we're going to
[00:36:52] be able to hold this ground we might all die here and yet all these men pressed on here's a little
[00:37:04] here's a little look at the German attitude right here I saw regimental intelligence officer
[00:37:11] armed with a carbine interrogating a German prisoner the prisoner was on his knees with his hands
[00:37:17] behind his head he was rather small and frail looking I was surprised to see he was not wearing the
[00:37:23] usual square shaped battle helmet instead he wore a gray build cap the lieutenant asked the prisoner
[00:37:31] among other things where the mine fields were the soldier answered only with the accepted Geneva
[00:37:38] convention requirement of name rank and serial number we had been instructed not to take prisoners
[00:37:44] for the first two or three days so I expected the officer to eventually shoot the prisoner again the
[00:37:51] interrogator screamed where are the damn mine fields again he received the same reply name rank
[00:38:00] and serial number the lieutenant's carbine barked but the bullet was aimed at the ground between the
[00:38:07] prisoners knees the arrogant German looks straight at the officer and said with a smirk nicked here
[00:38:16] not here he pointed between his knees here he pointed to his head this told me something about our
[00:38:26] adversary so you had I mean you we we we we know that people will fight to the death we know that
[00:38:40] they get brainwashed him when you look at any history this this sounds like a young kid probably
[00:38:46] raised from the young very young age as a Nazi as a loyal Nazi just like the Japanese that fall to
[00:38:54] the death that's what we have here in many cases back to the book combat deaths are ugly and
[00:39:05] sickening a bullet or piece of red hot shrapnel tears flesh gristle and bone into gruesome wounds
[00:39:16] a few hours in the sun causes a body to swell grotesquely and turn dark purple
[00:39:21] the stench is unbearable such deaths were tragic insults to all those handsome young geys just
[00:39:30] beginning their lives who would not fulfill their dreams many of those killed were like me
[00:39:38] barely teenagers when they enlisted just starting to grow to maturity in the army
[00:39:43] those comrades and I spent many happy weekends and furloughs together soaking up culture and drinking
[00:39:51] bidders shared living quarters ready each other's mail and more significantly
[00:39:58] shared the misery of training in the most extreme developments
[00:40:04] the hundred and sixteenth infantry lost from 800 to 1000 men on D. Day and D. Company lost at least
[00:40:12] 72 of the dead 20 of them were from my hometown of Roanoke five of nine of our officers were killed
[00:40:24] including capital wall curshilling lieutenant William Gardner lieutenant Merrill Cummings
[00:40:31] lieutenant Vincent Lobowitz and lieutenant Alton Ashley there were 12 noncombs killed
[00:40:39] including these rowanokers sergeant James Obenchane staff sergeant James L. Wright sergeant
[00:40:50] Russell Jack Ingram and sergeant George D. Johnson Corporal Jack Sims
[00:40:56] add to the list of the dead 23 privates and another 32 wounded many of them severely
[00:41:13] and yet our nightmare had just begun brutal
[00:41:19] absolutely brutal and I wanted to rattle off those names of all those people from the hometown
[00:41:31] when we see a soldier or a marine or a sailor get killed now you see what it does to a town
[00:41:40] you see out of impacts a town imagine 20 from one little home town
[00:41:53] they moved past the initial D. Day and now they start to head to St. Low and this is where you
[00:42:02] 've heard about before if you know anything about history you know anything about this part of the
[00:42:06] war this is when they get into head drill country and they're fighting from head drill to
[00:42:11] head drill these head drills are you know these ancient I guess they're not structures
[00:42:17] their hedges but they're completely difficult to get through you have to cut through them
[00:42:22] a drive-thru and what tanks or whatever and they hold up and every one of these head drills
[00:42:26] becomes like a mini battle and their brutal battles back to the book the site of another
[00:42:34] terrible death that occurred at this time haunts my dreams to this day my squadron I
[00:42:40] were digging a machine gun in place may be behind a scrubby head drill we had just finished fixing
[00:42:45] the camouflage when it happens to you junior officer with field glasses scanning the front
[00:42:50] I could tell he was a newly arrived replacement his uniform and equipment were relatively new
[00:42:56] and unworn the sharp report of an 88 millimeter fired from some somewhere nearby
[00:43:04] and sent me diving at the same time the high explosive missile hit the lieutenant's upper torso
[00:43:12] the second squadron I were splattered with gore as the spotter was blown backward minus his head
[00:43:20] number two gunner private first class sal artery vomited and I nearly did too
[00:43:27] the dreaded German sniper was almost as highly respected as the 88 sharpers shooters gave no warning
[00:43:37] taking careful aim with sniper scoped mousers the receiving end would hear the sharp crack
[00:43:44] and instantaneous wind of the bullet if you heard the report of the bullet leaving the muzzle it
[00:43:50] wasn't for you German snipers nearly always aimed for the head if it was visible and in
[00:43:57] range most infantry men never removed their helmets except when they shaved and I confess that I
[00:44:04] slept in mind the 8 millimeter bullet could easily pass through the helmet through the head
[00:44:10] and out the other side with enough energy left to do more damage I saw men get hit between the eyes
[00:44:17] or just above the years which killed them instantly if the bullet missed the helmet the entry
[00:44:23] hole was usually neat and showed only a small trickle of blood but after the steel jacket bullet
[00:44:30] hit the helmet or the skull the bullet flattened causing the wound to shatter the other side of the
[00:44:37] head away
[00:44:39] this start receiving more fire he jumps for cover and then back to the book I climbed back
[00:44:57] on the path shaking but unscathed within minutes I had another surprise as I approached
[00:45:03] an opening on the right side of the head draw I heard someone moaning crawling carefully
[00:45:07] through the opening I came face to face with a young German paratrooper who had been hit by a large
[00:45:12] chunk of shrapnel he had a very serious upper thigh wound and his left trouser leg was bloody and torn
[00:45:21] this was my first encounter with the enemy up close the German paratrooper is a fierce and
[00:45:27] fanatical warrior easily distinguishable by his round helmet and baggy smock my first reaction was to
[00:45:34] put him out of his misery and keep going I believe he knew what I was thinking he begged
[00:45:42] dearfully comrade bitta to means friend please he was an impressive looking young soldier about
[00:45:49] 19 years old my age he was as filthy as I was with long brown stringy hair I'd always thought
[00:46:00] most German soldiers had short blonde hair he had an athletic build about five feet 10 inches tall
[00:46:08] about 180 pounds and a handsome face I suspended the promise I had made at the beach about not
[00:46:15] taking any prisoners I thought this that was then and this is now I just couldn't shoot a wounded
[00:46:25] human being at point blank range I made sure he didn't have a weapon hidden on him then I tied his
[00:46:31] belt around his upper thigh which stopped the blood from gushing I gently swabbed the dirt from
[00:46:37] his wound and applied sulfur powder his winds turned to a forest grin he was in pain so I gave
[00:46:46] machata morphine and a drink of water from my canteen then I let him have one of my lucky strikes
[00:46:53] cigarettes and lit it for him as I left he smiled weekly and said in gutterl broken English
[00:47:00] donka god bless good luck that changed my thinking about taking prisoners I still hated the
[00:47:08] enemy but I couldn't kill one at close at range especially if his hands were up I sent one of
[00:47:16] our medics to finish what I had started I hope the German would recover and that is war was over
[00:47:29] that's compassionate human being right there yeah does it kind of in a way put into perspective
[00:47:36] but more shed the light shed light on potentially the overall attitude where you're fighting a
[00:47:45] war and the enemy is more this entity of an enemy you know it's not like how many kicked this
[00:47:52] guy's I'm sure it's like it's not personal yeah yes and the US and the military we still do this
[00:47:58] they're gonna dehumanize the enemy as much as they can to make it easier for you to kill them yes
[00:48:04] that's why you call them crowds that's why you call them dinks that's why you call whatever the
[00:48:09] slang you know what would now be all be considered racial terms or politically incorrect terms
[00:48:16] there's a reason they're trying to dehumanize these other people they're trying to dehumanize
[00:48:22] the enemy so that you can more easily kill them and when you come face to face with them all
[00:48:28] the sudden they become human yeah isn't that crazy though like this whole crazy thing hold this
[00:48:34] probably the crazy thing imaginable for this guy he comes face to face with a guy that that
[00:48:42] you know kind of in between the bullets so to speak and he's face to face with this person and
[00:48:47] then really what the whole experience was reduced to in that moment is this one person helping
[00:48:53] another person you know and then even and it impacted both of them obviously you know where the
[00:48:59] guy was like hey god bless almost like came in we're in this war I dig it almost like a football
[00:49:03] gamer something like amen I dig it you know we're on this back different teams a good luck he told
[00:49:08] him good luck in a war man it's a man that that whole human factor when when you're exposed to it
[00:49:16] even with the enemy tank like that's gotta be strong huh yeah definitely definitely can be
[00:49:23] I mean in in World War one I mean there was times where then this is really famous there was
[00:49:27] times where they got out of the trenches and played soccer on Christmas day against each other
[00:49:31] and then the next day go back to slaughter each other crazy that must feel in in this weird way that
[00:49:38] must feel so good you know to be like like you know like you ever gotten like when you're a kid
[00:49:45] or even as an adult when you get you know like a argument with someone real bad maybe your friend
[00:49:50] or or not whatever you get a real bad argument with them and I don't know it lasted there too
[00:49:55] or we got to know whatever it's real bad and at the end you guys make up and you guys are like
[00:50:01] back friends again it's almost like it's such a good feeling maybe because of the contrast or
[00:50:06] I don't know maybe because I don't know but it's like it has to have like that kind of feeling
[00:50:11] when you're in this crazy war you're like I hate this so much hatred and just aggression and
[00:50:17] opposite you gotta remember this is there's plenty of guys and there's plenty of Germans I got
[00:50:21] smoked right there without a second yeah yeah and he just had that moment and maybe if that guy
[00:50:27] would have looked a little bit different or acted a little bit different or something happened more
[00:50:30] quicker like faster or something you know it just slowed down just for that second and and
[00:50:36] sucked them right there and it's like a both right hand what happened later the next people that
[00:50:40] came out the medic might have gone over and said wait you sent me over here to work on a German
[00:50:45] yeah that could have happened to you just never know
[00:50:48] thank now we're gonna start getting crushed with some artillery
[00:51:00] back to the book Jerry pounded the 116th all day and two nights with blockbuster 155
[00:51:08] millimeter and 105 millimeter artillery near misses caused enough concussion to make our ears ring
[00:51:15] and our heads ache the pounding rounds of salvo after salvo of earthshaking artillery
[00:51:22] will relentless and frightening during the bombardment I shared a long shallow slit
[00:51:28] trance with one of my first decompany replacements private Lewis Cass from Chevy Chase Maryland
[00:51:35] we nicknamed him junior early on because of his boyish looks and demeanor junior was from an
[00:51:40] affluent family and had volunteered into the army upon graduation from high school he didn't
[00:51:46] look like the type that could last very long in brutal combat our slit trunch was covered with wooden
[00:51:54] sheathing atop through the roof of piled dirt like thousands of other infantry soldiers
[00:52:00] subjected to such heavy bombardment junior and I wore a pitiful sight find yellow dust sifted
[00:52:07] through the cracks and the roof and stuck to our sweaty skin and eyes if the dust it had been
[00:52:14] black we would have looked like very tired coal miners the yellow dust turned a mud around our
[00:52:21] swollen bloodshot eyes when nature called we had to answer in the safety of our slit trunch lying down
[00:52:29] all the training and experience in the world could not have prepared us for this kind of harassment
[00:52:35] those box our boxed car side shells sounded like they were flip flopping and over and
[00:52:42] and screeching straight for our whole this went on hour after hour all day and through the night
[00:52:51] many good soldiers cracked and who could blame them
[00:52:58] the long bouts of duty had been taking their toll it was extremely rare for an infantry
[00:53:04] men to go unscathed for very long many twenty-niners were wounded two three or four times fighting
[00:53:13] through the hedgeros of Normandy all of us were praying for the million dollar wound
[00:53:20] which missed vital organs bone and nerves but would give us a long stay in an English hospital
[00:53:26] sleeping under clean white sheets and at least in fantasy in the care of a beautiful nurse
[00:53:32] meanwhile battle fatigue and self-inflicted wounds had become serious problems at least once nearly
[00:53:42] all combat soldiers if they are honest consider shooting themselves in order to get out of the
[00:53:47] hell of battle self-inflicted wounds however are considered disgraceful and if proven in
[00:53:55] a court martial offense nevertheless many respectable kia and wounded in action were in reality
[00:54:04] self-inflicted or friendly fire accidents so we have some massive stress
[00:54:16] stress that's driving men to shoot themselves yeah another mention of the million dollar wound yes
[00:54:23] you know like the ticket out you know and he's saying at least once nearly all combat soldiers
[00:54:30] if they are honest consider shooting themselves in order to get out of the hell of battle
[00:54:39] back to the book land mines and booby traps were also common ways to be wounded or killed
[00:54:46] hearing the news of who had gotten hit was always hard and every day new faces replaced
[00:54:50] seasoned infantry men it was easy to distinguish a new arrival from a veteran the old
[00:54:58] timer could be 18 or 19 years old but if he had survived a week on the front he was considered old
[00:55:06] and we all looked it on a diet of k-rashions we all lost weight our ribs shoulder blades
[00:55:15] and atoms apples stuck out and our filthy ragged uniforms hung like worn out drapes
[00:55:23] our eyes were blood red and sunken and we had bleeding swords on our exposed skin
[00:55:29] ordinarily ordinarily these would be telltale signs that a man needs a month's rest
[00:55:36] but we all knew there would be no rest until Saint low was taken
[00:55:40] knowing that there was no immediate end in sight drove some fellas over the edge
[00:55:50] a few good soldiers who couldn't take the pounding day after day
[00:55:55] committed suicide
[00:55:59] this was the case of Stanley Corsiac a 19-year-old private born and raised in Chicago
[00:56:06] he was a tough athletic little soldier he made the day landings and had fought well through the
[00:56:12] hedgeros but everyone has a breaking point his squad reported that Stan who had seen many of his
[00:56:21] close friends killed or severely wounded had begun to act strangely strangely he cried often
[00:56:28] especially during incoming artillery barrages and sometimes his crying reached the point of his
[00:56:34] stereo instead of the usual disciplinary action for similar behavior he was sent back to the kitchen
[00:56:42] area for a break from the action many of us thought that a few days rest a couple of hot meals
[00:56:49] and a warm bath might rehabilitate him but he was in more pain than any of us had realized
[00:56:57] why couldn't we see that he had reached his limit? Private Corsiac found a cooks springfield
[00:57:07] O3 rifle removed his shoe so he could pull the trigger and blew the top of his head off
[00:57:17] one of the cooks heard the shot and ran to his tent
[00:57:20] Stanley Corsiac had had enough of the constant fear the filthy grime the ears chattering
[00:57:27] explosions the putrid smells the extrusion pain and the maiming and deaths of his close friends
[00:57:36] Stan Corsiac died on July 2nd
[00:57:39] the record book shows he was killed a non-battle casualty in my book Private Corsiac died
[00:57:53] and American hero so we got to know that this demon that we're dealing with now
[00:58:02] has been around for a long time and you know that's a classic situation where his death
[00:58:15] Stan Corsiac's death is reported as a non-battle casualty which means no one labeled him a
[00:58:22] suicide which means how many people did that happen to and it was never captured they
[00:58:32] wasn't reported and so now we never dealt with it
[00:58:40] that if you don't deal with things you don't capture the lessons learned if you don't recognize
[00:58:44] these things how you get a fixum as Bob Slotter pointed out it was almost impossible for one of these
[00:58:53] guys to go day after day after day and not get wounded and he ended up getting wounded
[00:58:59] got trapped in a fragment of the bag gets pulled off the battlefield luckily
[00:59:10] and sent to an English hospital and here's what he says about that it is one thing to visit
[00:59:21] a wartime army hospital but something quite different and much worse to be a patient in one.
[00:59:31] Lawmakers will consider armed conflicts more carefully before rattling the proverbial savor if they
[00:59:36] were forced to visit an amputee abdominal burn or plastic surgery ward.
[00:59:42] Here that lawmakers before you send the boys off to war you need to go and spend some time in a
[00:59:54] hospital with wounded vets and make damn sure your decision that you're making.
[01:00:02] Back to the book I recovered in a ward dedicated to abdominal wound abdominal wound patients
[01:00:14] a bullet or a piece of metal shrapnel puncturing the stomach can cause a lifetime of embarrassment
[01:00:19] and misery. The aftermath of a gut wound is either death or eternal marriage to a
[01:00:27] colostomy sack the stench in that ward was predictable it was tough to share quarters with
[01:00:35] seriously wounded patients at night the morning and groaning and sometimes screaming made it hard to
[01:00:43] sleep many of the men there died. I remember one particularly sad boss swar the tony from Brooklyn
[01:00:55] was the third floor clown the shift nurse is fell in love with him because he kept the
[01:01:01] ward laughing with his teasing and practical jokes but one night his cherished laughter came to an
[01:01:07] awful end on a Saturday night with a skeleton crew on duty to only begin to be complained of a
[01:01:14] sharp pain to the gut. The floor nurse was paged and after several tries she arrived
[01:01:21] by that time tony was screaming as two orderlies quickly wheeled them into the emergency room.
[01:01:29] Two hours later tony was dead of gang green poisoning. Facial district facial disfigurement
[01:01:40] was terrible and more devastating to the patient than any other kind of wound. A few men had lost
[01:01:47] arms or legs either partly or completely and as a result some of them became so called basket
[01:01:54] cases even so and it sad to say some severely maimed men were actually happy about their condition
[01:02:03] because they were going home their combat days were over. So the war ends and actually Bob
[01:02:16] slaughtered does go back he recovers from his wounds he goes back he's there for the
[01:02:22] allied victory and that's another just fantastic story of how that all happens.
[01:02:33] And then he was out of the out of the army
[01:02:37] and this is what that feels like back to the book. On July 13th 1945 I was suddenly separated
[01:02:48] from the service discharged at Fort Mead Maryland with a few dollars in my pocket and the
[01:02:53] Kackie uniform on my back. I was suffering mental as well as physical wounds but there was no
[01:03:00] one to counsel me. I was a civilian again but I was not comfortable socializing with other
[01:03:07] civilians. I was 20 years old with an 11th grade education and no skills other than soldering.
[01:03:17] I was left alone to find my way home to Rono, Virginia. There was no treatment for post-traumatic
[01:03:26] stress syndrome. It was simply called battle fatigue. Those of us who had returned from the war
[01:03:33] were left to tough it out. The years rolled by our hair grade and thinned,
[01:03:43] waistlines grew and many of our company associates developed health problems. Our generation
[01:03:50] smoked cigarettes and drank hard liquor. Many of our men who had high halfway around the world
[01:03:56] became sedentary. We didn't like to exercise. We traveled to the beach and went to swimming pools
[01:04:02] thinking that sunshine was good for the skin. Many were disabled by wounds. Drank and smoke too
[01:04:09] much and died prematurely. The war still took its toll long after it was over.
[01:04:16] Rarely did anyone talk about the war. The media or silent are children uninterested
[01:04:28] and we ourselves sought to forget.
[01:04:31] I got married, raised two sons and went to work for a mid-sized newspaper in a mid-sized community.
[01:04:51] I found time to acquire a modicum of education, coach little league baseball,
[01:04:56] and was grateful to live a normal American life. Two many of my army buddies failed to reach
[01:05:06] their 25th birthday and many of those who did were never the same. After what they'd been through,
[01:05:15] they just couldn't adjust to the real world. Many of them fell prey to alcohol,
[01:05:21] loose women, radical religion, or isolation. Anything to help them get through each day,
[01:05:27] month and year. Seven of our D company men committed suicide.
[01:05:37] Compared to those and thousands more, I have been blessed.
[01:05:42] In some ways, writing this book, a process that has taken me almost 15 years has been the last
[01:05:49] leg of the journey. I realize that I speak for many who never had the chance to speak for themselves
[01:05:58] and I've done my best to pay them tribute. My hope is that this memoir,
[01:06:06] and however small a way will perpetuate their memory and stand as a witness to their sacrifices.
[01:06:12] It's saddens and worries me that so much of the world, including America itself, refuses to
[01:06:22] learn the hard lessons of the past. Now that I'm in my 80s, I am well aware that the long
[01:06:30] march that begins so many years ago is about to come to a halt. I am proud to say that my
[01:06:39] generation helped save the world from tyranny, prevent the extinction of an entire group of people
[01:06:45] and preserve the democratic freedoms of our wonderful American way of life.
[01:06:49] I wouldn't change a thing except to wish that my dear army buddies could be here too.
[01:07:04] And John Robert Bob Slotter died on May 29, 2012, and William Blake, the poet,
[01:07:28] you asked who can stand and I will tell you it is men like Bob Slotter that stand.
[01:07:43] And it's men like him that encourage me, and tell me in no uncertain terms that we are
[01:07:53] capable of more. We can do more, we can be more. We can stand.
[01:08:15] Not much to say after that one echo. No sir. Not much to say.
[01:08:20] Yeah, obviously I can't help but agree fully. A lot of these, we go through these books.
[01:08:31] It's crazy how much it puts into perspective. Everyone knows about World War II.
[01:08:38] Everyone knows, most people we know about World War II. We know about the wars, but that's
[01:08:44] we don't really know about the wars. We don't know about the details that we don't know about
[01:08:49] individual experiences, which really is that's what makes the wars. Yes. And we don't know anything about that.
[01:08:57] And what's interesting, this book was recommended to me from Twitter, from one of the troopers out there.
[01:09:04] And so we have the band of brothers, right? And everybody knows band of brothers, I'm not everybody,
[01:09:08] but most people, more people know band of brothers. Because it was a book and then it was a big
[01:09:14] HBO movie and it was awesome. This book is less well known. But what you have to know is that there's
[01:09:26] thousands and thousands of stories that we don't know and we will never know. I mean, some of
[01:09:33] we will try to know, but there's so many stories that we will never know. That moment in combat,
[01:09:40] when this guy tried to save that guy and they both did something completely heroic and they both
[01:09:46] died and we never will know. So we have to cherish what we can find out, what we can learn.
[01:09:57] But there's just so much there and so much sacrifice that was made. And as I always say,
[01:10:06] what are we doing right now to honor that sacrifice? More, that's what we need to do, more.
[01:10:27] And with that, let's make a, let's make the hard transition once again to the,
[01:10:35] the rough transition to the interweb for some questions.
[01:10:41] Speaking of interwebs on it.com slash jockel is where you can get 10% off of the spectacular supplements.
[01:10:52] Namely, real oil and shrimp tech. What about alpha briny? That's good that you remember that you
[01:11:02] must have been on alpha briny. And also you might want to just do yourself that favor and get some of
[01:11:08] those words. What else? What else? If you're in the mood to support this podcast before you shop
[01:11:17] on Amazon, click on the Amazon link on jockelpodcast.com or jockelstore.com. Sometimes people
[01:11:25] have been saying, hey, there's a problem with the link. Like, you know, it's not working or whatever.
[01:11:30] Some browsers have ad blockers activated on it. You got it. So, disable the ad blocker for that page
[01:11:42] and you can do it. And I'm still working on the Canada one. I don't know if we can even do the Canada one
[01:11:47] and you can. Anyway, click through the the jockelstore or jockelpodcast.com and before you do
[01:11:53] your Amazon shopping and you can support that way or get a shirt or a coffee mug or a bumper sticker
[01:12:02] from jockelstore.com. And we weren't keeping it a secret or nothing but we do have a new shirt out.
[01:12:09] Oh, we do. Know the darkness. To appreciate. You know the saying, well, I know that this podcast can
[01:12:18] get a little bit dark from time to time. Yeah, because you know how like you're a regional, um,
[01:12:23] one of your regional things was, you know, you go through life and certain people all they see is
[01:12:27] is the good thing so they get kind of desensitized to like the just small little good things in life.
[01:12:35] You know, someone you when you and that's really everything anyway where, you know, when you
[01:12:39] there's no tall people if everyone's the same size. So you kind of got to know both, you know,
[01:12:45] the both short and tall. No, I've said it many times and I think there originally, I think I originally
[01:12:52] said it on the Tim Ferrissio. He said he said something along lines of like, hey,
[01:12:58] jockel, I've struggled with depression. How close should you get to the darkness? Right, right.
[01:13:05] Because I was talking about some dark things and I said well, Tim,
[01:13:08] um, if you really want to know the light, then you got to know the darkness. Right. So echo made a
[01:13:16] t-shirt about the darkness. Yeah, just as know that. And here's the thing, I kind of added another
[01:13:20] dimension to it. It's it's all black. It's black on black. So you see, you can't, you know, it's all dark.
[01:13:27] You can kind of see it. Anyway, it's cool. New shirt. New shirt up. If you want that one.
[01:13:33] Um, yep. There it is. Let's get to some questions from the interwebs. First question.
[01:13:42] Jockel, what is your relationship to surfing? Could you surf on active duty and what is surfing
[01:13:50] do for you? Okay, so my relationship with surfing. Number one, I was lucky to have a guy that
[01:14:00] when I was a kid up in Maine. That said, hey, I'm going to teach you how to surf. This guy was a
[01:14:06] lifeguard. He was an outstanding surfer. And he said, I'm going to teach you how to surf. And I was
[01:14:10] a 10 year old kid. Nice. What? In the freezing cold water. And I said, yeah, awesome. Then so he gave
[01:14:17] me an old surf board and put me out there and taught me how to surf when I was 10 years old. And it
[01:14:21] definitely, you know, surfing up in Maine is a little bit different because it's dark and it's cold.
[01:14:27] And you got to do a little bit of suffering if you want to enjoy the benefits of it. You got to know
[01:14:33] the darkness. I don't know. I said anything about the darkness. So surfing. Yeah, quite. Yeah,
[01:14:38] coi, you didn't have to deal with that. So that's how I got it surfing and surfing a lot of people
[01:14:43] will tell you when you do it. It's it's somewhat addictive because it's a very, a very, you know,
[01:14:51] kind of paradoxical thing because it's very relaxing at the same time. It's very kind of exciting.
[01:14:56] I guess is the word you get a little adrenaline, but you get a little melodout to. So it's a very
[01:15:00] fun thing to do. Good for you. It's good for your brain. It's good for the soul. And when I was on
[01:15:08] activity, if you're on active duty in the sales teams, yeah, you can surf. And I definitely surf.
[01:15:14] Sometimes more, more, I was more focused on surfing than others. When I really went B. J. J. Crazy,
[01:15:23] I wasn't doing anything else with any free time other than J. J. So that's, but yeah,
[01:15:30] there's guys. There's guys in the sealed teams that that actually manipulate their career
[01:15:35] around surfing because you can get station and you can go on trips to great surf spots.
[01:15:39] And all that and there's some, there's some pretty amazing surfers in the sealed
[01:15:44] teams in the military as well. But I mean, I only know about guys in sealed them. There's a
[01:15:47] good guy named Ivan Trent, whose dad was Busy trying to fame this old pioneer surfer in Hawaii.
[01:15:55] And Ivan Trent, what I was a picture when I first got in the sealed teams, there was a picture of
[01:15:59] Ivan Trent dropping in on a giant wave that would me obey the famous one via Bay. So there's some great
[01:16:05] surfers. It's definitely a little subculture inside the teams and you could definitely,
[01:16:10] you can definitely surf a lot. I mean, you're living in San Diego or Virginia Beach. I mean,
[01:16:15] Virginia Beach has waves sometimes. San Diego has waves a lot of the times.
[01:16:21] And what does it do for me? Well, one thing is it gets to get you outside. It gets me outside
[01:16:28] and gets you out into nature. And what I like about nature,
[01:16:34] nature, what I like about nature is nature makes you feel small. That's what nature, to me,
[01:16:40] that's what's good about nature. That's what, that's why nature puts things in perspective
[01:16:44] because nature makes you feel small. Make you realize, you know what, look at the ocean. I'm nothing.
[01:16:50] Look at the giant wilderness, I'm in, I'm nothing. So it just keeps you in check and keeps you
[01:16:55] in perspective. That's one of the, that's actually one of the things that the, probably the only
[01:16:59] thing I don't like about your jet to is pretty much the most part. It's inside. It's inside the gym on the
[01:17:06] mat. And so, you know, you can do it outside, but it's hard to do outside. This is the Matt's
[01:17:13] get super hot. It's just not, it's just a thousand times more efficient and convenient to do
[01:17:20] inside. It's novel outside. It's novel, exactly. It's cool to do sometimes. And at my old house,
[01:17:27] I had like a full outdoor jujitsu area, which was cool. And I had a shade structure over it. It was good.
[01:17:32] It was good. But you have to have something to that extent before it's not like you can just
[01:17:37] do jujitsu outside and you can do it. It's, but it's novel. And you know how to, you know,
[01:17:42] what, if you do an in grass, you get the grass edges. Yeah. For some reason, I don't know what it is
[01:17:47] when you do jujitsu in grass, you're all itchy. Yeah. But even that's kind of not, you know how like,
[01:17:52] this is more when you're younger. You know, when you first learn jujitsu, oh, yeah, when you first
[01:17:57] learn and you're doing jujitsu every year. And you're at the party and everything's at that when you're a blue bell.
[01:18:02] You're just looking at everything like to mat. And yeah. So I think I think with other people,
[01:18:09] you know, some people obviously are not by the ocean, but you know, with anything outside,
[01:18:12] running hiking, biking, swimming, even playing outdoor sports, like soccer, and shooting basketball
[01:18:18] outside. This is whatever. Just get outside, just get outside, get out in the air, feel it. And I'll
[01:18:26] say one more thing about jujitsu and surfing. There's a little connection there. There's a little
[01:18:31] connection between jujitsu and surfing. I don't know what it is. Do you know what it is? What is
[01:18:35] balance? Well, you know, you got like even Kelly Slater who's, you know, what is either 11-time, 12-time
[01:18:43] champion of the world in surfing? He does jujitsu. You got guys like Joel Tutor. JT, if you don't know
[01:18:51] who Joel Tutor is, he's just legendary longboard surfer. And actually he's from San Diego. So we
[01:19:01] kick it with JT from time to time. And actually I see him on a regular basis. I had to,
[01:19:06] that the longboard surfing contest, because both his kid and my kid surf in the long, on the long
[01:19:11] boards. But Joel Tutor, who's a, who's a literally one of the most, you know, many people
[01:19:17] consider him to be the best longboard surfer of all time. Oh, dang. Of all time. Yeah, you didn't
[01:19:23] know he was that good. Did you? I knew he, all the time I didn't know that, but I believe it. And I'm
[01:19:28] not going to make that declaration, because then a million people will say no, it should be this
[01:19:32] guy. But there are many, there are many people in the world who consider Joel Tutor to be the best
[01:19:38] longboard surfer of all time. I met, I met Joel Tutor in jujitsu. You just started coming in and
[01:19:45] he, there was Shannon was like, Hey, roll with him. He's good at jujitsu. So I was like, Oh, cool.
[01:19:49] He was like a brown belt at the time and I roll and he's really good at jujitsu. And I was like,
[01:19:52] I'll get a cool Joel. And I see him during the day. It's like Melal group and he'd come to
[01:19:57] the end, roll with Joel sometime. Yeah. Really cool, Joel Tutor. He's this kind of guy who's smaller
[01:20:02] than me. We'll say. And he's better than me. Cool. Cool. One day, you know, who told me,
[01:20:07] Joel Tutor was a badass longboarder? Who? Kagnets. Kagnets? Is that Joel Tutor in that big
[01:20:12] guy? Is that what you in to under? Like, yeah, you know, he's probably a longboarder. He's so badass.
[01:20:17] Yeah. Yeah. And, and not as he's so awesome at surfing. He's jujitsu sick too. So Joel Tutor's
[01:20:26] one and then you get, then once you go, once you go Brazil, you know, in this scenario,
[01:20:30] then there's all kinds of surfing going on because that's a culture down there, you know,
[01:20:33] my first instructor, Fabio Santos. He's a, he's a badass surfer, Holy Lord Hicks and
[01:20:39] even kid Palagro. He's yeah. So, so there's definitely an end when you just meet
[01:20:47] guys surfing. There's like a decent chance that they train the jujitsu. Right. And so you said,
[01:20:53] you know what the connection is? I know of some connections, yes, which major ones.
[01:20:58] So educate. Okay. So me. It's one of these things where kind of on the surface, it feels like you
[01:21:08] against this big wash of a challenge, right? But really, it's not, it's not like this challenge
[01:21:16] that you take on. It's more of a challenge that you kind of just ride with. You know, it's more
[01:21:21] you yourself. So in and on top of it, and that could be an effective mountain climbing, whatever, but
[01:21:28] this is jujitsu and surfing is it always changes. It's not different. It may seem, same in one
[01:21:34] where another, it's same, but every single experience is different. Yeah. And it's not something
[01:21:39] you can just take control of. You know, it's not one of those things. It's you have to, you have to
[01:21:45] ride the weight. Yes. And surfing is literally in jujitsu. It's, you gotta go with it. You can't fight
[01:21:50] it. Just like you can't fight away. If you got it and it's, and they're both that. Yes. So of course,
[01:21:56] yeah, they take balance. But those are just little small physical, right? Because others force to balance.
[01:22:00] I don't do it. Yeah. But yeah, it's, it's you. I mean, it's kind of a spiritual type thing to say.
[01:22:05] It's you against yourself. Right. But that's really what it is. It's like you have to improve
[01:22:12] yourself. You know, it's not about conquering this, you know, maybe psychologically it is,
[01:22:18] but it's still within yourself. And it, and it's constantly changing. That's,
[01:22:22] getting philosophical. It's true. But I like it. Yeah. That's good. And my last comment on that was
[01:22:30] both of them, both surfing and jujitsu. Empty your brain. They empty my brain out. They empty my brain
[01:22:36] out. And they, they give me nice clean slate to do other things with. So that's that.
[01:22:45] All right. For the record, it come from Koi, but sorry, say I don't serve. Yeah. But,
[01:22:51] bra, I used to shred body, body, body and body, sponge. Yeah, total sponge. Oh, and by the way,
[01:23:01] it's my man, not why me. Oh, I, I'm not I'm correcting you because you're my friend.
[01:23:08] But I don't want to be a character. That's no correct. Correct. Correct. You mean,
[01:23:12] okay. Yeah. Absolutely. Why me. I guess, right? It's just pronunciation. Yeah.
[01:23:16] Don't let me up. But I'm wondering, go, what can I say? Why, man. Why, man. Be. Oh, I am.
[01:23:24] If you be a character too much, you become the guy that people are tolerating. So you don't want
[01:23:30] to be the guy at the party that people are tolerating. You don't want to be that guy. No matter how smart
[01:23:35] you want them to think you are, well, you just proved your, your intelligence. You gave me permission.
[01:23:40] All right. Next question. Started jujitsu this week and love it.
[01:23:48] I'm a former boxer and was thrilled that they let me spar on my first day.
[01:23:52] Is sparring on the first day too soon in your opinion? I was repeatedly told to tone it down
[01:23:58] by the higher belts. I thought I was tone in it down. Is jujitsu more like a dance or a street
[01:24:05] tuzzle? Am I supposed to relax and let these green and blue belts destroy me? I'm confused.
[01:24:12] This is such a great question. Because you see this all the time and you're just doing it.
[01:24:16] And I know from the from the podcast and from Twitter that there's so many people that are
[01:24:20] starting jujitsu because the podcast and that's definitely why I wanted to answer this one.
[01:24:25] Because it's how everybody feels when they start you. And you're always going to get
[01:24:31] the senior belts or the more experienced people telling you, hey man, you got to relax.
[01:24:37] By the way, if he's rolling with green belts, that means he's rolling with people under the age of 16.
[01:24:43] Yeah, you know, I actually had a little discussion. I've heard that there's some academies
[01:24:51] that give out green belts as an intermediate belt between white and blue. That there's a
[01:24:57] adults such. I have never heard of it, but I was told that the other day so that might be the
[01:25:02] situation here. Yeah, and by the way, I'll just go on record of saying, I disagree with it.
[01:25:07] Yeah, and you don't have a green belt as an adult. You should be white belt and then blue belt.
[01:25:12] That's the way it was and that's the way it should remain. Yeah, if I were in instructor,
[01:25:17] that's how it would do. But to me, hey man, do what you dig and he's doing jujitsu and the
[01:25:22] green belt. Yeah, that's the way it's been. In fact, he's an adult. He's doing jujitsu. Apparently long enough to get a green belt.
[01:25:28] I say hey. No, no, he's not a blue belt. Yeah, right. But he's got some guy in the event of this green belt that he's
[01:25:34] mentioned being an adult. Okay. Either way, I say, I say go do so. So yeah, now that now the reason that
[01:25:41] people are telling you to relax, they're trying to be helpful because you're going to learn more
[01:25:47] if you relax and you actually concentrate on the techniques that you've been told. The couple techniques
[01:25:52] that you've learned to try them. I'm not saying don't fight it because you, you have, you don't know what
[01:26:01] else to do. So you just use your horrible instincts to try and just muscle out of stuff and you
[01:26:08] get beat anyways. And that's why it's you're just beating your head against the wall. So they're trying
[01:26:13] to get you to relax and use the technique that you've learned and pay attention to what the other
[01:26:17] person's doing and think about where they're positioning their body and what they're doing and how
[01:26:24] that's working. So you can actually ask them and say hey, when you were holding me here, I couldn't
[01:26:28] move my arm. How are you holding that? So you can learn. If all you're trying to do is muscle out of it,
[01:26:32] you're not thinking about what's happening and that's, that's not a good sign. Yeah, I think it's
[01:26:38] funny because relax, you know, when you hear relax as a, as a way out enough, you're even remember
[01:26:42] when you're away, but when they say relax, more accurately put, they should say, not they should say,
[01:26:52] but they're saying try to relax. Yes. We know everyone knows, they guys not going to relax.
[01:26:58] He's over here rolling with a guy. He doesn't know anything. Of course, guys in Mount, which is like,
[01:27:03] you know, super uncomfortable with being, of course, he can be trying to flip out, try to get out of
[01:27:07] there. He doesn't know the moves. So he can't be like, you know, I'm going to relax and do all the moves.
[01:27:12] I know. He knows two moves. He's his first day, whatever. So yeah, try to relax. And I think that's a
[01:27:20] good point where don't be going so hard in spashing out. So hard that nothing's going through
[01:27:25] your mind as far as what position is this guy on me. You know, I remember not my first first day,
[01:27:31] but early on where side control, I barely even realized the difference between a side control and a,
[01:27:38] you know, half guard situation. And that's one of the things that as time went on, I wish I would
[01:27:43] had known, you know, like, okay, this is side control. And if you would have been more aware and less
[01:27:50] fighting, right? You would have said, oh, wait, he's got my leg trap. That's what feels different.
[01:27:54] Exactly. Right. That's the game. You got to you got to switch your game to this side control game.
[01:27:58] You know, yep. And what's telling someone, am I supposed to let these green and blue belts
[01:28:05] destroy you? No, but you got to remember, you can't look at it like a fight. It's not a fight.
[01:28:12] Yeah. It's not a fight. You know what it is? Don't let them destroy you. Let them educate you.
[01:28:18] That's what when you're rolling with a higher belt, especially when you don't know them very much at
[01:28:22] all, they're educating you. You should be trying to pay attention. And let's just take this off
[01:28:28] the mats and in the life. Because when you get into a situation, an unknown situation, what are you
[01:28:36] going to do? Are you going to fight and struggle against when someone has more knowledge than you
[01:28:41] about some topic? Are you going to fight against them? No, just be quiet. Listen, and learn.
[01:28:47] When you're in a new scenario, you're something you've never done before. Are you going to
[01:28:52] try and compete and win? And this thing you've never done before? Are you going to try and learn and
[01:28:56] be educated? My recommendation is to learn to be educated because you're not going to win.
[01:29:01] Lest it's a miracle, but most situations don't allow for miracles. So when you're in life,
[01:29:10] relax, try and learn. When you're on the mat, relax, try and learn. Try to really try to
[01:29:17] relax. You've got to try and relax. It's here. And when I don't, maybe it's just me, but when I think
[01:29:26] of the whole spectrum, when I first started versus you just right now, and of course, I don't
[01:29:31] have it all figured out. But when I kind of reflect on that whole learning process, I like the fact that
[01:29:39] I couldn't really relax at the beginning because you start to realize, oh, I see how I learned
[01:29:44] that right there. You know, I see how I see the difference now in the time where I didn't really know
[01:29:51] how to relax versus even like the time where I thought I knew how to relax, but after, you know,
[01:29:56] a 10 minutes, oh, dying versus, you know, now where you can go 10, 20 hard, you know,
[01:30:02] in fine place where you could relax and be able to basically control the scenarios where you can't
[01:30:06] relax. I like that. I like that the beginning, you can't relax. This is like in the beginning,
[01:30:11] you didn't know certain relaxing is yet another move. Yeah, there you go.
[01:30:16] Yeah, I rolled with Dean tonight, Dean Lester, and he was all fired up because he'd been on the
[01:30:22] trip. And so he's like, Hey, let's roll. So we rolled and he got the mountain position.
[01:30:32] And I just was down there relaxing speaking of relaxing. I was just down there relaxing. And
[01:30:37] I'm relaxing, but I'm just doing a little bit of off-balancing of him. So he can't really relax
[01:30:45] 100%. And it took me a few minutes, like about five, but I got out of the mountain and got back
[01:30:52] to another position and got back to the car. So it's, you're right, relaxing is actually a technique in
[01:30:58] Gigiitsu. Yeah. So in a big part of it, not the whole thing, but a big part of it is just being conscious of it.
[01:31:07] You know, maybe I'm spashing too much or something. Of course, with everything it's going to come
[01:31:12] with wraps, it's going to come with experience and stuff like that. But yeah. And by the way, Dean would tell
[01:31:16] you, and I would tend to agree with him, not only to relaxing a technique, spashing is almost
[01:31:23] so attacking. And sometimes, you know, Dean will get some position on me and I will spas to get out of it.
[01:31:29] Now, I'm not encouraging the person that wrote this question to start working on their spas technique.
[01:31:33] Don't start working on that till later. Save that right now. Start with your relaxed technique.
[01:31:38] Yeah. Yeah. All right. Next question.
[01:31:45] In regards to podcast number 23 in the art of war, many of the rules seem very simplistic and
[01:31:51] black and white. Take this one, for example. When the enemy occupies high ground, do not confront
[01:31:56] him. If he attacks downhill, do not oppose him. Where does that leave us with battles like Normandy,
[01:32:03] where troops had to get up those cliffs? What about the IDF conquering the Goalon, Goalon,
[01:32:11] Goalon Heights? Goalon Heights in the sixth day war. There are many other examples I could give.
[01:32:19] It's obviously not ideal to do such things as fighting a well-intrenched enemy uphill,
[01:32:24] but dealing with less than ideal situations is a part of war.
[01:32:30] We should all be so lucky as to only be able to choose battles that fit the art of war.
[01:32:35] But from my experience, it's often not an option in real life.
[01:32:41] And you have to somehow get it done anyway. So yeah, this is a pretty simple question with a
[01:32:46] pretty simple answer to. Don't forget that the laws or the the art of war and the laws and the
[01:32:54] art of war, the rules, the simplistic back and white rules in the art of war are governed by
[01:33:00] other rules that say to break the rules themselves. So just to pull out a couple quotes,
[01:33:07] I went and pulled these out. Sunsu says, he who can modify his tactics in relation to his opponent
[01:33:14] and thereby succeed in winning may be called a heaven-born captain. So if you can adapt
[01:33:23] to the situation, then adapt your tactics and modify your tactics. So attacking uphill is a
[01:33:29] modification of a tactic, right? Yes. The next one I pulled out. Sunsu says,
[01:33:36] do not repeat tactics that have gained you one victory. But let your methods be regulated by the
[01:33:44] infinite variety of circumstances. That answers the question in its own right. Let your methods
[01:33:55] be regulated by the infinite variety of circumstances. And the last little quote I pulled up from
[01:34:03] Sunsu, according as circumstances are favorable, one should modify one's plans. So there's three
[01:34:12] rules from the art of war that tell you to change the rules of the art of war when you have to.
[01:34:21] So yeah, you're told to avoid these situations, but sometimes you have to. Now it's also
[01:34:29] important to remember that the philosophy of the art of war generally espouses an indirect methodology
[01:34:38] of combat, where oftentimes you're trying to keep yourself safe and inflict damage when you can.
[01:34:49] That implies that maybe I have less physical strength or size than my opponent. So I've less
[01:34:58] soldiers or less equipment than my opponent. And from that perspective, let me ask you
[01:35:04] to would it be smart to attack Normandy if you actually didn't have the numbers to carry out the
[01:35:12] attack? You didn't have the overwhelming force that we had a mast on England to go in a
[01:35:18] sole France. It wouldn't make sense. Then it would make sense to continue to obey the principles
[01:35:27] in the art of war, which is you know what we're not going to attack head on. We're going to figure
[01:35:31] out another way to do it. So like I said, these are rules, but these are rules like all rules
[01:35:41] that are meant to be broken when the time calls for it. So good question, but it's a, it's a,
[01:35:48] the art of war answers that question in itself.
[01:35:57] Jockel, how do the seals reconcile themselves with the fact they face death on every
[01:36:04] operation they undertake more so than the conventional forces? Is this something that is learned?
[01:36:12] Well, first of all, let me make it perfectly clear that this is not true. What is it? Well,
[01:36:18] first of all, the part that you face death on every operation, there's a little chance, but further
[01:36:23] more and more importantly, this idea that the seals or special operations unit face death more
[01:36:32] so than conventional forces, not true. In fact, in many cases seals are safer than the conventional
[01:36:40] forces. The conventional forces are out there doing very difficult operations that are oftentimes
[01:36:48] more dangerous. I mean, even just something as simple as going on a logistics convoy.
[01:36:55] You are, I mean, I reckon Afghanistan, you are extremely exposed in those situations. You're on the
[01:37:01] defensive because you're in a convoy. You're just waiting to get blown up.
[01:37:07] And so that situation is you're facing your much, you're much more exposed in that situation
[01:37:16] doing a daytime convoy run down ID roads, then you would be if you were doing a night patrol
[01:37:25] through the same area. There's just, that's just the way it is. I mean, there's other operations,
[01:37:28] too, I mean, presence patrols and senses operations. There's all kinds of
[01:37:34] operations that the conventional units do that are extremely dangerous. They also oftentimes have
[01:37:41] less support. So for instance, there's an aircraft called an AC 130 that is just a miraculous
[01:37:50] piece of equipment, just an incredible weapon system. And it's an airplane that flies around a 10,000
[01:37:59] feet and it can see everything because as these incredible, incredible imagery systems on it.
[01:38:07] So they can see everything that's happening, they can track, they can end and they can shoot and
[01:38:10] destroy anything they want. So a lot of times the special operations units will have
[01:38:17] for instance something like an AC 130 supporting them. You know, on top of that, special operations
[01:38:23] they get really good training. So you've got this, this, out-send of the conventional forces
[01:38:30] often have great training as well, but sometimes they don't have the best training in the world.
[01:38:34] Then you're in a, you're in a sea of puttons or you're in a special operations,
[01:38:38] you know, in a special forces ODA, you can have some good training under your belt that you've
[01:38:44] been going through for many, many years so that training makes you say for as well. And, you know,
[01:38:50] you're going to get oftentimes again, you're going to get better gear in special operations
[01:38:54] because they have a big budget for a smaller number of people. The logistical support,
[01:38:59] the flexibility that you have in special operations is usually, it's usually better. I mean,
[01:39:07] like the logistics in the army or the Marine Corps is awesome and and it definitely is better than
[01:39:14] special operations, but special operations is usually is always supporting a much smaller unit.
[01:39:20] So even though the logistics people or systems might not be as good, they're overwhelmingly good
[01:39:27] for the small number of people that are in special operations. So, you know, I'll just go one step further.
[01:39:35] A lot of times, you know, in Ramadi, the conventional guys, they were living out in the city.
[01:39:41] They were living out in the city of Ramadi after we put combat outposts in place. You know,
[01:39:46] we seals would return to base after a few days out in the field. These guys stayed out there.
[01:39:51] So we'd return back and, you know, get it, get a shower and get some good food and
[01:39:57] relax and we had permanent guards that kind of guarded our base with a really big perimeter.
[01:40:02] So we were in a good spot to stand down for the most part.
[01:40:07] Whereas the conventional guys, they're out there in Ramadi. They're standing watch, you know,
[01:40:11] oh, you know, we go back and can take a break and go on the internet. When they take a break,
[01:40:16] they're going into a watch tower. So I just don't, I just want to make sure I make it perfectly clear
[01:40:22] that, you know, the conventional's are by no means doing anything less risky than the special
[01:40:30] operations. In fact, most of the time they're doing things that are more risky.
[01:40:34] Tough formations, higher risk, you know, that's just the way it is. So that's why, you know,
[01:40:44] we have just the utmost respect and admiration for the conventional units that we work with in Ramadi.
[01:40:51] And I'll tell you the guys, that's how we feel. So now the question becomes, how do we
[01:40:58] any service member face death is the question? And again, it's any service member.
[01:41:06] Anybody that's going to war has to realize that there's a possibility that they could get killed.
[01:41:12] And so what do you, how do you get over that? For me, it was acceptance and saying to myself,
[01:41:19] you know what? Okay, I could get killed and it could happen tonight. It could happen tomorrow.
[01:41:26] It could happen in a week. I don't know when it's going to happen, but it could happen.
[01:41:31] And you know what? I'm not afraid of it. So if I'm afraid of it, that's going to be hard to
[01:41:37] deal with every single day. The other piece of it is, you deal with it by mitigating as much
[01:41:44] risk as you possibly can. Okay, what can we do? How can I make sure that I'm safe? You know,
[01:41:48] how I make sure that I'm safe? I can say it's a possible. I train hard. I make sure my guys
[01:41:52] are training hard. I make sure my guys are dieted and I make sure that they know what the plan is
[01:41:58] when we go out of the battlefield. That's what you do. You mitigate as much risk as you can. And then
[01:42:05] there's areas where you can't mitigate risk. There's areas where you could catch a,
[01:42:11] you could find an ID, you could find a bullet, you could find a bomb and that's it.
[01:42:19] And you can't, in my mind, you can't worry about things that you can't control.
[01:42:29] So the things that you can't control, accept them and let's focus on mitigating what we
[01:42:34] came control. And I think that's probably, that's what I did when I was in those situations.
[01:42:42] And I would tell you that that's what most of the guys that I was with had something along those
[01:42:48] lines in their brains. Yeah, that acceptance is such a powerful thing. Like if you just accept
[01:42:58] something like, okay, I'm at risk of this or I'm like, this is going to be a terrible crude example,
[01:43:09] comparatively speaking compared to what? Compared to accepting the risk of death. But let's hear it.
[01:43:15] Let's say you, you missed it a long example. Let's see, you go to work. The fans wanted to say that.
[01:43:22] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. All right, let's say you go to work and right when you walk in one of
[01:43:26] your coworkers and him and John, your boss is looking for you. He's going to, and you know, you did
[01:43:31] something you messed it up. You blew up some meeting. I don't know, whatever messed up with the claim.
[01:43:36] You're like, hey man, the boss is looking for you. And you're like, yeah, I was just so you're going
[01:43:40] to avoid the boss at all costs. Oh, that's good. Make sure you don't. Yeah. So let's say you avoid them one day.
[01:43:45] The whole day, boom, you've clocked out your out. Next day, same thing. Oh, she's looking for even
[01:43:50] more even more even more after a while. It's going to weigh on you. And once you just feel like,
[01:43:56] I'm going to get chewed out. Let me just accept it. And then, you know, you can go through it.
[01:44:02] Stress is gone. Yeah. Really. Yeah. Um, analogy accepted. Yeah.
[01:44:09] Oh, or like, for example, oh, oh, it's like a bully is looking for you. Yeah, let's go.
[01:44:15] Yeah. Like, you know, well, I don't know if you've been bullied in school, but um, like,
[01:44:19] if someone's looking for you, they're mad at you or whatever. And you know, they're looking for you.
[01:44:22] The bully. And you're like, man, you're avoiding when you're avoiding them. After why you just
[01:44:27] all right, I accept it. You know, something's going to have to go down. I'm going to have to
[01:44:31] experience this confrontation. Yeah. In really the acceptance point would be to say, you know,
[01:44:35] what, what's the worst thing that could happen? The worst thing that happened. He beats me up. I
[01:44:38] get a bloody nose. I don't care anymore. I'm going to go get it. Yeah. Because what you're talking
[01:44:44] about really is facing the problem, which I also support. You know what, you got a problem, whether
[01:44:48] it's meeting with your boss or what you're going to get bullied, I'm going to face that problem.
[01:44:52] So that's one piece. But one thing that will help you to face the problem is saying,
[01:44:57] okay, what's the worst thing that happens? You know what, I go into my boss. He might fire me.
[01:45:01] Okay, if he fires me, I'm going to have to go get a new job. But that's the worst thing that's
[01:45:04] going to happen. Right. What's the worst thing that happens if I get into fight with a bully?
[01:45:08] Worst thing that happens. I'm going to get a bloody nose and we'll get beat up. Yeah. But you know what,
[01:45:13] I can handle that. So I'm going to go face this issue. And it's the same thing in combat. What's the
[01:45:17] worst thing that happens? Worst thing that happens? I'm going to get killed. Okay. That happens. It's
[01:45:24] over. I'm good with it. Let's go out and face it. And you know, honestly, I said it's the worst thing,
[01:45:29] but honestly, the thing that guys are usually the most afraid of is having their friends get
[01:45:33] her, they're guys get hurt. That's the worst thing. Yeah. So, bully. And then even how you said
[01:45:38] that the training helps. And that seems obvious, you know, but I think even that is, that's like
[01:45:45] it kind of an understated. I think under appreciated. Because you know, like remember,
[01:45:50] for USC came out. And I remember looking and being that poor. These guys are nuts to go in there
[01:45:56] to do that. But once you learn even just some jujitsu, just some jujitsu, you think that what you see,
[01:46:04] like them fighting in the USC and stuff like that's I could do that. Yeah. You all, yeah. And actually
[01:46:08] that's one of the reasons why I started, I started jujitsu. I didn't start jujitsu. I want to be a fighter.
[01:46:13] So I trained in MMA first. And before training that, I would have thought you're
[01:46:19] completely insane to do that. You got to be like kind of crazy person. But once you have the
[01:46:23] training, you see, okay, you know, kind of just, yeah, you get a normal life. You see, like, okay, I see all this
[01:46:28] stuff. You have just a just a vast understanding rather than all you see is knuckles and blood and arms
[01:46:36] breaking. That's the next question. Jockel, good evening. In a leadership position, is it okay to take
[01:46:48] or ask for suggestions on solving a task or is it okay to take suggestions that stray from my initial
[01:46:55] plan? Yes. Yes. And I hope that this that would made you decide to ask this question because you just
[01:47:10] like found out about the podcast or the book or whatever because this is something that absolutely
[01:47:19] anybody that kind of listens will would say yes, absolutely. In your leadership position,
[01:47:26] you should definitely ask for suggestions, take suggestions, share the planning,
[01:47:34] let other people let many brains be smarter than your one brain. That's what you want. You want
[01:47:41] to utilize the brain power of your team. Now, the reason you're asking this question,
[01:47:47] little bit scary, little bit of a red flag. The reason you're asking this question is because you're
[01:47:50] afraid of what it'll look like if you have to ask, hey, guys, I'm not sure how to do this or
[01:47:56] you're afraid of what it means that you're going to look that you're going to look weak. You're
[01:48:01] going to look like a weak leader. That's your experience. That's your inner experience. That's your
[01:48:05] insecurity. That's making that happen. Don't be insecure. Don't be insecure because the open mind
[01:48:12] and the asking for suggestions and the taking suggestions, it actually makes you look like a
[01:48:18] better leader. I know that sounds crazy. It actually makes you look like a better leader when you say,
[01:48:23] hey, you know what, echo, we got this problem a soft, not 100% sure how to tackle this one. Can
[01:48:28] you give me a hand? Can you give me some suggestions here? That doesn't make you say, oh,
[01:48:34] Jocca doesn't know his game. He's an idiot. No, because I'm a man. Jocca was humble. He's looking for
[01:48:38] input. He wants to work together as a team. So, yes, absolutely. Ask for suggestions, take suggestions,
[01:48:51] have an open mind. This regard your plan if your plan wasn't good. I'm not just going to hold
[01:48:59] fast to a plan because I'm the one that thought of it. That's not good leadership at all. Don't
[01:49:06] do that. Open your mind. Yeah. Yeah, I'm asking for asking for suggestions. And this kind of kind
[01:49:16] of what you said already is it helps with making everyone feel even more involved. Oh, you mean
[01:49:24] it spreads the ownership throughout the team? Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Lead echo Charles. Yeah. And
[01:49:29] indeed, that improves. I know as like if, if, you know, you're leader, whatever, and the leader was asking
[01:49:36] me for my input. And I gave it to him. And you know, any, I mean, I would feel just that much more valuable
[01:49:41] in part of the team. I'd be more enthusiastic now. Right. Now, who's going to work harder in a project?
[01:49:46] You, when I come in and say, hey, can you give me a hand? How do you think we should do this? And
[01:49:50] you come up with a suggestion and you start working on that plan? You're going to go a lot harder
[01:49:53] than if I come in and say, hey, here's what I want you to do. Follow my instructions. Yeah. As soon as
[01:49:58] you come up to an obstacle, and I've all I've told you do is follow my instructions. As soon as you
[01:50:03] come to an obstacle, you're going to be like, ah, you know what, A, I need, this isn't working. Right.
[01:50:08] Whereas if it was your plan, you come up to an obstacle, you tackle that thing. You get after it.
[01:50:15] That's what happens. You know, you know, you're saying like sometimes where, you know, as a leader,
[01:50:19] you might be reluctant to ask for suggestions because you might come up like an experience or something like that.
[01:50:28] If you need a suggestion and you're like, oh, I don't want to sound like that or whatever,
[01:50:33] and you say, you know, whatever, I'm just going to go hit move forward anyway. You know,
[01:50:38] and you're not know the best way to do it. Oh. And you're going to look dumb. And then you know,
[01:50:42] all like, we talked about this before, where if you don't know what you're doing, but you're acting like,
[01:50:47] you know, you're a pro. Just a transparent man. If you're way more transparent than you think, and that goes
[01:50:52] pretty much with everything you do. Right. It's like name droppers. You know, when people like drop
[01:50:55] names, they don't really think that people are going to pick up on it, but oh my gosh,
[01:50:59] smell that thing from one mile away, something he's out like tonight. I was like, well, you know,
[01:51:03] journalists, Twitter, doing what kicking it exactly up. Hey, it's been 26 podcasts. And I haven't talked
[01:51:11] about having done much name dropping. J. J. T. Joe, you're the first one. They drop in. You should say
[01:51:18] Joe Tudor, because you could be talking about J. T. T. T. T. Oh, no, I'm talking about Joe T. J. J. J. J. J.
[01:51:23] And I guess I dropped Jeffy Glovers name, but those guys, we we drop Greg Train's name, too.
[01:51:28] You know what I mean? We drop. We drop everybody. Like, everywhere that we train with, we
[01:51:34] we drop their names, but just no one knows who they are. Right. Yeah. So it's like Andy or big
[01:51:40] Eric. I mean, we talked about these guys. Well, technically, that wouldn't be named dropping
[01:51:45] them technically, like, name dropping, like, well, then Ian, but what if I said, hey, I was training
[01:51:49] with big Eric tonight, but it's such and such. Yeah, see if it's, but actually, it was
[01:51:53] training with Dean Lister tonight. Well, yeah, it depends on the context you're trying to add. If you're trying to
[01:51:57] add into the story, the fact that I know this guy that therefore makes me hit for cool like this guy,
[01:52:04] or on his level, whatever, or associated with him, so I'm cool, whatever that's the game dropping.
[01:52:08] But if you're just trying to paint a more accurate picture of your experience or your story,
[01:52:11] or the fact of the matter is, like I was training with Dean tonight, right? You know,
[01:52:19] yeah, see, so it added context to the story, but I said, Dean, and then you went, you
[01:52:24] can't reverse it. Or came back to say, do you lose, do you? That's neat. Nonetheless, the point is,
[01:52:30] if you start carrying on, you know, you don't know that you need suggestions, and you say,
[01:52:36] you know, whatever, I'm just going to move forward by thinking to smell that on you, that you're
[01:52:40] black like that. Yeah, I'm laughing some negative name dropping right now. It's true, that
[01:52:47] the point there is, you're a lot more transparent than you think, like a lot of people, and
[01:52:51] some people, you know, it's funny. You keep using transparent in its, in its, the way that the
[01:52:57] business community uses transparent right now, they use it in a positive way. Yeah, okay, look,
[01:53:01] we're just going to be completely transparent on how we're doing this. Yeah, you're using it
[01:53:05] in a, in a little bit of a negative way. Like, hey, I can see through your, your crap here. Yeah,
[01:53:11] yeah, and I tend to use it in both, like I use it in both. Yeah, I'm using both. But part of
[01:53:15] this thing kind of kind of thing, but I like that. I read that. I'm not sure if I'm signed
[01:53:21] for it, but nonetheless, yeah, they'll see right through that if you need suggestions, and that's
[01:53:26] on top to add to the fact that all this other stuff that it makes the team feel more valuable,
[01:53:31] it's a more, it's a better overall way to, to me. There's no doubt about it. No doubt,
[01:53:36] maybe by the way, in case you're wondering the best military planning units, whether it's the
[01:53:40] sealed teams or whether it's the army that I work with or whether it's some ring core, the more open they
[01:53:45] are in their planning, taking suggestions from, throughout the chain of command, of the better
[01:53:49] off they do period and the story. I should have just answered with that and we're going to move on.
[01:53:53] That's the way it works. Next question. This is a question slash clarification.
[01:54:03] Could you elaborate on flanking? My impression was that it meant to move around to attack from
[01:54:10] the side instead of head on, but as often as it comes up on your podcast, I get the impression
[01:54:15] there must be more to it, or at least some interesting nuances. I guess there's not that much more to
[01:54:24] it. I mean, a little piece of it was you want to distract them a little bit to the front,
[01:54:29] and then you want to flank them. That's about the only additional information that's needed to
[01:54:35] understand what flank is. Flank is yes, you attack you instead of attacking head on you attack
[01:54:40] from the side or sometimes the rear. I'll tell you just to point this out for anyone out there that's
[01:54:47] either in the military and law enforcement and you're going to flank and you're going to go
[01:54:52] to the rear. Just remember that on a large scale at works because you have distance where your
[01:54:58] weapon tree won't impact friendly lines, but if you surround someone or you come from the rear of
[01:55:07] let's say a small target building or a situation with an open environment, but you're surrounding
[01:55:16] an enemy. Just don't forget that when you surround an enemy, you now you're cutting off your own
[01:55:22] field to fire. So that's why you shouldn't do that. You should just stick with the flank,
[01:55:27] where that way you can still keep shooting and keep your field to fire as open as possible.
[01:55:31] I just wanted to throw that in there, but that's what it is. Military terms it means you're attacking
[01:55:36] the side, you're attacking the weak point, which is generally the sides. Now, it's the same thing,
[01:55:42] obviously in GJitsu, you don't attack what they're defending. You attack their knack attack,
[01:55:47] their knack attack, they forget about their knack and boom, you flank them and get their arm.
[01:55:51] Greg Train said that to me tonight. He was like, oh, that was a little flanky. He says to me,
[01:55:58] Greg Train. So did I just name drop? What if I said, Dean Lister said it that it would be a
[01:56:06] name drop? If you said Greg Train told me that, well, today while I was hanging out with Dean
[01:56:11] Dean Lister, that would have been a name. All right, I won't do that. So, but then you get,
[01:56:17] so now you get flanky and we've talked about this before when you're talking about dealing with people.
[01:56:24] Then yes, you don't want to attack where people are dug in. You don't want to attack what they are
[01:56:29] defending. When someone has a strong point of view that they're married to, don't attack that.
[01:56:37] It's someone has a big giant ego, don't attack that flanky.
[01:56:42] It may, may be even just give a little bit of massage to that ego to distract them and then sneak
[01:56:52] in from the flank with your idea and you put it in there. If someone's got a plan that they're
[01:56:59] defending hard core, don't attack the plan. Come up with a little way to augment the plan, a little
[01:57:07] twist on the plan that they already have. So you're accepting their plan, but you're putting your
[01:57:11] spin on it. And that way, they accept it because it's part of what, it's part of their plan.
[01:57:22] So it works. So once again, don't beat your head against the wall 487 times. Just flank.
[01:57:31] Real simple. That's all it is. We have, and a lot of times it's a figurative thing.
[01:57:39] Yes, well, obviously. And there's like all these little things he who flanks first wins
[01:57:46] and flank or be flanked. There's one more. There's a million of them. But
[01:57:53] when and out flank. Yeah, there's all these little things. But the great thing about it is also
[01:57:59] just mentally. If we're trying to solve a problem and we're just thinking one way of the problem
[01:58:05] when you get stuck in that white flank. When you come up to a, when you come up to an obstacle,
[01:58:10] flank. When you get a resistance and you can't figure something out, flank. That's what I'm talking
[01:58:18] about. Just always have that in your head. I'm always doing that emotionally dealing with relationships
[01:58:26] scenarios. You got your relationship, your wife. She's dug in on something. Don't
[01:58:35] us. That thing. Flank. Is that kind of like, um, you want to go to,
[01:58:42] train you, Jitu, but you'd gone like a bunch of, no, no, you want to go to Taco Tuesday.
[01:58:47] Or something. I don't know wherever you go. And you know, it's her birthday.
[01:58:51] I go to a steak Saturday. Yeah, steak Saturday. So you buy your wife flowers the day or two days
[01:58:59] before, right? Yeah. Instead of being like, I'm gonna, I'm the man. I'm going because I said,
[01:59:04] so you buy either her the flowers. You flank them. And then when that day comes, you have the quote
[01:59:10] unquote opportunity to see some friends just a quick one, one night. She'll remember those flowers
[01:59:15] because she's on the, on the, on the, you know, the distractions. You distract her. You flank. You
[01:59:20] flank. You're like, on Jurassic Park, you know, those, the raptors. You're, you're a
[01:59:25] Jurassic Park. I have. It was quite some time ago. So, okay. So, it was about dinosaurs. Yeah. Yeah. So,
[01:59:30] the T-Rex. The T-Rex can't really see that good. So, you just remain still. You keep,
[01:59:35] you remain real still. He can't really see you because he sees movement. But the raptors,
[01:59:39] they're, they're these like, they're a little meet, many T-Rexes. They flank though, don't they?
[01:59:43] They flank. So, one of them is like messing with you, like engaging you and you think, okay,
[01:59:47] I'm not going to move or maybe I'll move or whatever. And then the other T-Rex. Then they enjoy
[01:59:52] you as their meal. That's a flank. It's a pre-holic. When in doubt, flank. Get that mindset.
[02:00:00] It's a good mindset to have. I think you're right. The flank.
[02:00:07] Next question. At what point do you turn off the manipulation tactics with people that you work with?
[02:00:13] Or don't you. So, this question, I actually pulled this from a friend of mine. Not a good,
[02:00:23] not someone I've known for a long time, but someone that's a guy that I know. He doesn't know
[02:00:27] me well enough, but he knows well enough to ask me this question. Sure. Right? And he actually
[02:00:32] sent me to text. He's like, you know, I've been thinking, after listening to your podcast,
[02:00:36] are you just manipulating people all the time? Yeah. And it's a legit question, right? I have that
[02:00:42] question. Yeah, even echo has that question. So, I obviously have talked about leadership and
[02:00:49] influence as manipulation, because that's what they are. Right? If I'm trying to get you to do something,
[02:00:58] you could say I'm leading you, but you could also say I'm manipulating you. Okay? And the difference
[02:01:02] to me, and I can say I've pointed out this difference before, the difference to me is that if I'm trying
[02:01:07] to do something that's going to benefit you or benefit the team, then that's leadership or that's
[02:01:14] influence. If I'm trying to get you to do something and it's going to benefit me, then that's
[02:01:19] manipulation. I've talked about that before. So, that being said, I am not running around in full
[02:01:29] manipulation mode all the time. I'm not constantly sitting there trying to plot and make people do things.
[02:01:40] I will say this though, I am generally conscious or aware or detached enough that I can see my
[02:01:49] interactions with other people from a good enough distance to see how I'm affecting the situation.
[02:01:55] So, it's there. You know, I'm aware of it. I do have a couple friends not many, where I'm
[02:02:03] just completely unfiltered, some of the times, maybe even most of the time, but with most people,
[02:02:12] like I said, I'm at least aware of what I'm saying and what I'm doing and how it's being received.
[02:02:19] It's modulated though, and I'm not sitting there manipulating everyone that I
[02:02:25] meet and the fact that matter is the reason it is, most of the time, I don't care. Not that
[02:02:30] don't care about them, but I'm not, I'm not, I have no reason. I am not trying to do something with
[02:02:35] this person. I'm just interacting with the person and I like to interact with different people,
[02:02:40] and I have, I get along well with a lot of different types of people from straight-laced,
[02:02:47] like religious people to freaking out wall bikers to surfers to alcoholics, to to fitness
[02:02:58] freaks. I mean, I'm friends with a bunch of different people, and I'm definitely not sitting
[02:03:03] around trying to manipulate them. I'm trying to enjoy, and I enjoy the various
[02:03:10] personalities and sort of decisions and life that people had. I learned from them.
[02:03:17] I'm not trying to manipulate, I'm actually trying to learn from people most of the time. Not manipulate.
[02:03:25] But when I do get in a team setting or a business setting or a relationship setting,
[02:03:31] we're now what we're doing is an interaction of humans, then I definitely will be thinking about
[02:03:46] how my actions and reactions are affecting the situation. And I will tell you this,
[02:03:52] I'm generally only doing it for good. I'm not trying to get things from people. I think you
[02:04:02] would be one to say, like, I'm pretty generous with what I'm trying to do with my life and
[02:04:10] and with helping people. Not that I find myself to be like some healer or some benevolent
[02:04:17] person that's running around. I'm not trying to say that, but I'm generally what I'm
[02:04:21] interacting with someone enough that I'm in this mode. I am trying to help. I'm trying to help us.
[02:04:31] That's what I'm trying to do. So if this is manipulation to try and help people and try to help
[02:04:42] whatever it is I'm doing with other people to move in the right direction if that's manipulation.
[02:04:47] I'm guilty. Yeah, and you see, you kind of mentioned that too, you're using the word manipulation.
[02:04:53] I use it where most people don't like to say it. Most people say, you know what? I really like to
[02:04:59] influence my friends and move them in the right direction. Well, what is that doing? That's
[02:05:03] manipulating. Yeah, so if you look at the definition, it's to handle cunningly. That's when
[02:05:08] manipulation is nice. Well, there's another dimension in that too. But I think that's a more general
[02:05:13] broad. Yeah, but I think the generally accepted meaning of the word manipulate has a negative
[02:05:19] connotation for sure. And it is rightfully so because it generally, when you say it,
[02:05:25] you're talking about, oh, Jocco is really manipulating echo. So does that mean? Oh,
[02:05:30] Jocco is trying to get stuff from echo. He's trying to, he's trying to do stuff for his own benefit.
[02:05:34] Whereas if I were to say, you know, Jocco, he's been hanging out with echo a lot.
[02:05:38] And he's really having a good influence on him. Well, guys, what? That's cool. Oh, everyone's happy.
[02:05:44] Now, but what did I really do? I really manipulated you. Right. I really made you act a certain way.
[02:05:49] I led you. I manipulated you. Yeah. So again, I mean, maybe I need to stop using the word manipulation.
[02:05:56] But I always, well, the reason I like to use it because I know it. I know it makes people think.
[02:06:00] I know it makes people see leadership for what it is with leadership. You're trying to get
[02:06:03] other human beings to do what you want them to do. That's what you're trying to do. Now, in the
[02:06:09] best form of leadership, you're trying to get them to want to do what you want them to do.
[02:06:14] And even in better form of leadership, you're trying to get them to do what they want to do.
[02:06:19] And it happens to be what you want them to be to do, to do, too. That's the goal.
[02:06:25] Well, but all of those means I'm trying to get you to do something. Yeah.
[02:06:33] And whether we want to call it leadership or we want to call it influence or we want to call it
[02:06:37] inspiration or we want to call it manipulation, it's the same thing. The only difference being
[02:06:43] in my mind when I manipulate something, I'm trying to help myself. And I don't do that.
[02:06:50] Right. I'm not trying to help myself. Yeah, manipulate through other people.
[02:06:55] Yeah, it sounds like that it's helping yourself at their expense. Exactly.
[02:07:01] And the influence is even more broad. I think he being goes outside of many people just because
[02:07:07] influence, you can passively influence someone. You can just hang around with someone.
[02:07:10] But you come with us on women, they're people, too. Yeah.
[02:07:15] Yes, you can. You can absolutely passively women, they're people. Like, and not know you're doing it.
[02:07:19] Yeah, you can. Well, no, you can do it by not doing something. Oh, yeah. Yeah. That's like
[02:07:25] passive aggressive manipulation. Yes. But like, influences, let's say we're just cruising
[02:07:30] and we're hanging out. You're not telling me or asking me or whatever to do something. You're just
[02:07:34] being you and I'm like, fuck, Jack was so cool man. Let me, let me roll up myself like,
[02:07:38] Jack would does, you know, that's in the comments. That's I wouldn't call that money.
[02:07:41] But that wouldn't be manipulation. Yeah, but what if I intentionally was like, you know what,
[02:07:45] I really need to get. I really need to get echo to do acts. Yeah. Yeah. And here's what I'm
[02:07:49] going to do. I'm going to show them. I'm going to lead. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, and really,
[02:07:56] isn't, so that being said, isn't. Being just, just being, being polite.
[02:08:03] Isn't that a low form of minute? Absolutely. If I say, hey, would it be possible for you to,
[02:08:09] you know, grab that chair for me? What do you mean, would it be possible? We know that's possible.
[02:08:12] Yes. But we don't. We know it's possible. I know it possible. Meant. Why did you say, if possible?
[02:08:18] Why did I say that? Because I want you to feel good about it. If it depends, if you want to feel good,
[02:08:24] you want to feel, you know, it's like you don't want to be a feminist. Absolutely. It's interacting
[02:08:28] with other people. Right. So you have to show some form of if we want to use the word
[02:08:33] manipulation, which we do obviously, um, yeah, you're always doing. So in a way, it's pretty rare.
[02:08:38] You're going to turn it up. Yeah. Really. Yeah. Really. And so I guess to answer the question once again,
[02:08:45] do I ever turn it off? Not really. Am I walking around trying to manipulate people and get them
[02:08:49] to fall under my spell of destruction? Hang on. No. I'm just a normal guy that's interacting with
[02:08:57] people on a regular way. And when I'm dealing with people in an interactive situation,
[02:09:04] I'm aware of the way I'm acting and how it affects the situation. That's it. And you're
[02:09:10] having to be pretty affected. I'm in a positive way though. How you turn it up? Like if it's for the
[02:09:15] goal of the collective. Right. Right. It's not a, not a, to my level. Yes. It is not. All right. So
[02:09:23] really the answer to the question is not really. That's the question. I like the way you put that.
[02:09:30] All right. We got one more. Yeah. It's the good time for one more.
[02:09:36] Jockel. How do you stay motivated and how do you motivate people when they start to slack?
[02:09:46] Now motivation is kind of a strange word because it doesn't really mean what we think it means.
[02:09:56] We think it means that we're fired up to do something. We think that it means we're eager
[02:10:06] and passionate to make something happen. And we think that somehow we should just be able to
[02:10:15] turn on that eagerness and turn on that passion. But we can't. Because you just can't turn on passion.
[02:10:30] You can't just turn on the desire to execute a task. It just doesn't work that way. And honestly,
[02:10:41] that isn't even what motivate means. Motivate doesn't mean to yell and scream and encourage.
[02:10:54] No, to motivate actually means to provide a motive. A reason why.
[02:11:01] So to motivate someone is to explain to them why they're doing what they're doing. How it will help them.
[02:11:14] Where it'll take them. Why they should continue to work and to struggle and to fight.
[02:11:23] And when you need motivation yourself, look for someone to scream and yell.
[02:11:29] No, look for someone else to give you motivation. Look at yourself.
[02:11:40] Look at yourself and remind yourself why. Why you are doing what you are doing. Remind yourself
[02:11:53] that this struggle, this temporary pain, this fight that you're in, this is what will make you stronger
[02:12:05] and faster and smarter and better. And then with that motivation go forward
[02:12:22] into the frail, into the storm, into the heat of the battle.
[02:12:36] Where victory is forged.
[02:12:40] And I think that's all I've got for tonight. So thanks to everyone for listening and supporting.
[02:12:59] And if you want to continue this conversation or ask questions or give us feedback,
[02:13:04] you can find us out on the interwebs on Twitter, echo Charles, echo Charles,
[02:13:12] and I am at Jockel Willink. We're also out there on the Facebook and even Instagram.
[02:13:23] And thanks to everybody that makes this podcast happen. And who is that echo?
[02:13:30] Aside from you, on it, of course, and if you've been living under a rock, as they say,
[02:13:42] and don't know what on it is, it's where we get Alpha Brain, which helps you think and memorize
[02:13:48] stuff and whatnot. New trends for you brain. Anyway, was it Jocelyn saying that he takes the
[02:13:55] Shroom tech? Yes. I think it was. I think I already said this. He was texting me and I want that
[02:14:02] Shroom tech. Oh, back. He said he's didn't. Okay, nuts. Get the Shroom tech on.
[02:14:07] I intend to do stuff for a long period of time. Anyway, on it is the supplement company.
[02:14:13] So go to on it.com slash Jocelyn, you get 10% off supplements. That's the only ones I would recommend.
[02:14:18] Really. Well, yeah. And then before you do Amazon shopping, if you want to click through the
[02:14:30] link on jockelpodcast.com, you can support that way. Or joclistdoor.com. Right. Or joclistdoor.com.
[02:14:37] Let's be in a joclist door. Before you shop on Amazon, if you go to joclistdoor, you can shop on
[02:14:43] joclistdoor. If you like the shirt, we have shirts. We have a new one out too. But yeah, if you think
[02:14:49] those are cool shirts, the new one out's know the darkness. See, no one's even going to know what
[02:14:54] these things mean. Unless you're one of us, right? You're not going to know people is going to be
[02:14:59] asking me what are you doing? Why you wearing that? I can barely read it. You said they weren't about it.
[02:15:03] Yeah, and I'll say this where I don't know if I told you this before, but
[02:15:08] the ideas behind the shirts, they're not just random. That looks cool on a shirt or whatever,
[02:15:16] they do have inside meaning, discipline equals freedom. That was your thing originally before you
[02:15:22] started podcast. When you said that, I was like, that doesn't make any sense. And that's what you said.
[02:15:27] You said at first, it doesn't make any sense. And I was like, yeah, it doesn't make thinking in my head.
[02:15:30] But then when you explain, it was like, dang, that's kind of, that's deep. It does make sense.
[02:15:36] Yeah, it does make sense. It makes perfect sense. Actually, but it is one of those things. You know,
[02:15:41] that's kind of where's so, okay. So that makes sense. If you don't know what it means, all it is is
[02:15:45] yet another shirt with a little saying on it, that's all it is. If you don't know what it means,
[02:15:49] same thing with your head that says good and good is backwards. All these shirts are for you. They're
[02:15:57] not for like, hey, everyone look at my cool shirt even though they can have that effect. But that's not
[02:16:02] what even their thing for you, cool. Yeah. So when you're looking in the mirror, it says good,
[02:16:07] then you can see you can read it. It's backwards. So the darkness shirt, if you look at it's black on
[02:16:13] a black shirt, barely see it. But that's what darkness is, man. You can barely see it, but you know
[02:16:18] that that darkness. Look at the design on the mouth. Yeah, if you look at the design on the back,
[02:16:23] it's a, we'll just say it's a dark scene. I'm just going to say that, but it's black on black. So you
[02:16:27] can, unless you kind of know and you really look at it, you know, if the shirt means something
[02:16:32] to you, you know, when it's going to be. So you're making shirts that actually, you got to be one of us.
[02:16:37] Yeah, you got to be on the inside, you know, you have that extra layer. What's up? But him and if you
[02:16:43] just think it just looks cool. Hey, do you know what? There you go. That's where to if you want.
[02:16:49] Awesome. So that's everyone that makes the podcast happen and the actual people that make the podcast
[02:16:57] happen is you all listening to this podcast, you're the ones that make it happen that asks the
[02:17:04] questions that write reviews that give us feedback and let us know that you're getting something out of it.
[02:17:13] So thank you for listening and for going out into your part of the world and motivating
[02:17:22] yourself and those around you to get up and get after it. Until next time, this is Jocco and Echo.
[02:17:36] Out.