Jocko Podcast 255 w/ Dave Berke: Attack is the Key to Success. Guidelines for the Leader/Commander

2020-11-11T20:45:52Z

Join the conversation on Twitter/Instagram: @jockowillink @echocharles @davidrberke 0:00:0- - Opening 0:01:44 - Guidelines for the Leader and Commander 1:41:40 - Final thoughts and take-aways. 1:42:29 - How to stay on THE PATH. Jocko Store https://www.jockostore.com/collections/menApparel: Jocko Fuel: https://originmaine.com/nutrition Origin Jeans and Clothes: https://originmaine.com/durable-goods/ Origin Gis: https://originmaine.com/bjj-mma-fit/ 2:07:02 - Closing Gratitude.

AI summary of episode

so how does this apply to everyday life and business train how you fight train how you fight know the status of men and equipment check up on those that are absentee from training practice maintenance in the field practice and he's got little sections about these each one of these practice sound troop leading procedures the subject of troop leading procedures and allied techniques requires increased emphasis on tactical exercises fundamentals found in field manuals and related publications are worthy of stress sound command procedures diligently practiced in all field training will form good habits in the unit commander form the checklist habit meticulous planning and reconnaissance are required to make sure that every minute in the field will be expanded profitably check this for this purpose are necessary command and staff tool just as they are for supervising and testing the conduct of training what do you got I got the same thing I keep thinking about every time I hear what he has to say he he keeps repeating fundamental sound realistic fundamentals these are the fundamental to the basic things all the basic things associated with their job and being good at those things and training in a real asexinereo there's a lot obviously general carcass talking about war he's recounting his experiences war I hear what he's saying is connecting it to war but the the application of these things as I keep hearing it in my head hearing what you're saying and thinking about the things I'm thinking about now if you are in the private sector anywhere the private sector unless you happen to be in one of the rare sectors that's not competitive and there are almost none if you are in the if you are in the American capitalist private sector you are at war your competitors don't want to share space with you they don't want to cooperate with you to to work in harmony to they want to run you over they want to take all of your clients all of your market share and all of your product they want to take all that from you and the way you are successful is the exact same things your people have to be trained on the fundamentals and everything that applies to them and the only way to do that is to find a way to train them realistically that replicates what they're going to deal with in the real war in their real world it's just kind of crazy how while it seems difficult to make the connection to his world the connection is so straightforward to any world that you're operating in you're exponentially more prepared for that situation and and we know when you're in a leadership position you're going to roll into a meeting where you've got to deliver some bad news to the troops you know what they're going to say you know there's eight responses you're going to get why not think through those things why not think through those things you're going to talk to a client that you've disappointed you've let down you've made a mistake you know they're going to have one of six different reactions why not work through those why not have a contingency plan for each one of those six things this will take you four minutes to do it'll take you and I four minutes to roll play may it'll take us five ten minutes to roll play the six different responses when I roll into you yes he breaks down here organization for unit training training plans comprehensible and workable plans are indispensable and should be formulated with consideration of the falling for essentials established training goals that's number one number two continuous evaluation this process must go on throughout the training cycle and as an integral part of it only by continuous evaluation can deficiencies be discovered early enough to make immediate correction possible number three testing closely related to evaluation is the more formal testing that is given to an individual or unit at the conclusion of a phase of training or block of instruction it's here that we determine whether our training goals have been met number four remedial training I must emphasize here the value of remedial or makeup training once event once a valuation in testing have identified the areas of deficiency remedial training must be used to correct them it should be an integral part of every training schedule of course the instruction will be designed to overcome specific weaknesses that have been exposed by the testing program and will have to be keyed to the specific needs of your unit it is essential however that remedial training be regularly scheduled gosh that makes sense so those are the four things established training goals continuous evaluation testing and remedial training what would that was their tests whether tests at each phase of top gun as you are going through the training Dave here's what we're going to do you're going to go in this building I'm going to go in this building you're going to take your squad you're going to move to here you're going to move to there does everyone understand all right we're going to go do it right now in this training exercise with no rehearsals that will show us the short falls of our planning and our communication it will also show the team short falls and when they don't know what to do they should raise their hand and say hey boss that doesn't make sense to me right now hold on a second let me hear that again I don't understand that part practice more than one thing at a time because I you don't really think about that when you're at work you know where you kind of want to be the best worker in company sure you know but the customer like experience is kind of the whole deal you know you know how like man when you leave your review you're like great product bad customer service and that can be like well that sucks because I need some customer service kind of thing I wasn't that position is if you're in a particular geography particular place and talking to a particular other person some radios going to work better than other radios this is true you might need to know hey you know what we're like in the bushes here in the in the wilderness so in the jungle this radio doesn't work here doesn't penetrate through this this thing so there's a million different examples of that if you get that out of order and you just work you you learn how to maneuver the system like my my my cursor moves at the here I move my my cursor on the display here and you don't actually know what's happening to the mechanics behind that you're going to start making mistakes inside in specific settings but I'm saying like you know you have these elements of a product or service that are all to the customer it's like it's all the same thing I'm not going to go to this person just for one thing I'm going to go I mean as far as one quality of their product they're going to they'll get turned off by other departments so if you work there for your just focus on yours rather that affects you that's what general car is saying you have to interact with other people inside your organization and if you're not doing that you're wrong you're wrong fast forward a little training philosophy the basic the basic philosophy of successful training is that of obtaining superior results with average personnel I didn't make it up neither do the hack there you go I believe the source is general clerk sweatless solution that's like that's that stuck with me for a long time still is with me really because sweat in part of it is yes because I had to admit to myself brother to me a lot of the time I'm looking for that sweatless this faith in the space I've been if you can go and get like you know the kind where okay the other day echo Charles going deep standby get some so I'm sitting on the couch right in big shocker there's a there's a so the remote control I have the kind where you know like the remote control for the cable and then for the volume they're two different so wait a second are we going against prioritize next cue does that what's happening no actually whenever I see a unit practicing only one thing at a time I'd remember of the history paper my son brought home one day the grammar construction and spelling were not good this is very poor English I told him but daddy said I was only being tested in history sound training requires that many subjects be skillfully integrated and taught concurrently this is an excellent time saver in training and he goes through this and any what he's saying is look you gotta do multiple things at the same time and even though prioritize an execute when you got multiple problems and you can't try and solve them all at the same time that doesn't mean that you're gonna say hold on a second we need to move towards the target That makes sense and I guess it probably makes sense to think that what it was leaning towards in the teams back in those days and probably in, you know, in the greater ground troops, the ground forces was that these, this idea of like going into a sustained ground combat was really, that route was really, it seemed like a less likely thing all the time, less and less likely that we were gonna actually, hey, we're gonna, if you would have told me in 1995, hey, the US year, the frog men of the 2000s and the 2010s are gonna do deployment after deployment, after deployment after deployment, after deployment, to the desert and they're gonna be fighting in ground combat sustained for two decades. oh it work here so much work everywhere like no it doesn't work everywhere this environment is optimized here this environment it doesn't work at all and if all you know is the mechanics and not what's happening behind it you actually can't apply it when it matters the most you know what that made me think of the book Leadership Strategy and Tactics by me because it's I say an exact same thing but when I'm talking I compare I compare a leader to a woodworker and talk about the fact that you know when you're a leader you got to know the different tools but we we crushed each other in those oral boards and one of the things that we figured out was which we got you know some of the senior guys said hey listen if you don't know the answer it's okay here's the response but rehearsing that and being ready for it is infinitely better than no rehearsal going there blind and get get smacked upside the head with something you didn't expect that you will talk yourself into that you've got to cover if you're doing this alone you'll tell yourself this isn't gonna be that hard I got this covered and you go in there solo you're gonna get crushed because you just you don't have that other person that to put you in a spot and go wow hang on a second training is important the well I didn't expect that I didn't see that coming I don't know what to say here and you also have to have the other person to just interact with you in a way that helps you anticipate a real response that you won't consider if you do it in your own brain which is a vacuum because what you can convince yourself is oh this isn't going to be that hard of a conversation I'm just going to say this he's going to say that and everything's going to be fine the role play winners we do to just to add one more thing to that when we do role play it usually comes right after we've done the initial training where we explain it he's god I love that with a reason or training is to take average people and make them exceptional superior results a unit to be truly outstanding should be excellent in all undertakings and activities commanders must know and understand that capabilities and limitations of personnel and set high and exacting standards of capabilities of the high ability of a group of units personnel this tends to give the low ability group a hopeless feeling because of having to compete against a standard which they cannot attain a unit satisfactory and all things is better than one outstanding in some excellent in others and unsatisfactory in a few that's a good thing to think about you know it's better to be good at a bunch I good at everything then outstanding at this one thing and I you know my response to him if I don't know what else to say I'm going to say Dave you know what I need to think about this for a minute let me just think about what you're saying because I want to make sure I understand that right there that right there is a response and it but I was like the volume one is like the volume one is somewhere else you know the kind you're looking around has to be close to you right because it's not like it's you know in the next room or something like that's not it doesn't have it's not gonna go far it's it's some other things in unsack in some final things next section fast forward a little bit emphasize fundamentals the basic difference between well trained unit and one that is not well trained is found in the attention paid to the fundamentals of marksmanship chemical biological and radiological warfare communications maintenance administration in all other arts and skills that contribute to making the unit combat ready in the shortest possible time a well trained soldier is the only foundation upon which effective combat ready units can be built when the soldier fails to demonstrate proficiency in individual skills the army's investment is wasted and the combat readiness of the unit is diminished each commander should approach his problems of combat readiness with a sense of wartime urgency there is no magic formula no sweatless solution to achieving a high state of combat readiness in a unit application the fundamentals enumerated below however will help so that by the way sweatless solution you've heard that before right that's that's that's hack well hack took that actual phrase well there you go alright so back to the book he's talking about the things that you can you can do to keep a unit trained up number one do essential things first there's not enough time for the commander to do everything each commander will have to determine wisely what is essential and a sign response abilities for accomplishment he should spend the remaining time on near essentials this is especially true of training not essential should not take up required time required for essentials what do we call that we call that prioritize next year next thing do things right the first time the commander should not consider his unit ready for battle until it can carry out a plan and they say we know I've got to go talk to this I'm going to talk to my subordinate leader who's got a giant ego and okay roll in there and just talk to him see how that goes it's going to be a disaster so you roll play and guess what the first time you roll play it's a disaster the second time it's 10 times better no don't don't don't do rehearsals yes do rehearsals a commander should take every opportunity to exploit the effects of integrated training it is the key to accelerate intensified unit combat training in effect it increases the amount of available training time good eliminate the habit eliminate the administrative habit in training I'm convinced that all commanders should take maximum advantage of field training time to develop correct tactical practices and procedures we talked about that one last time practice dispersion concealment and can of camouflage the penalty for bad habits and passive measures in air defense or warrants special mentioned the day when American soldier could be relaxed about dispersion concealment and camouflage is in the past okay seems like as a philosophy you know and how general Clark is saying subsequently hack worse subsequently Choco whether they're saying stop looking for the sweatless solution stop like straight up but just do the work stand up get through the remote control whatever this may be the apex of the echo Charles examples of just saying there's a lot of those you look like when you're vacuuming and then you had to go do an oral board for all the different departments and you had to go and program the radios and break down the weapons and build demolition charges and you know show how to put on a parachute rig and set up a diary you had to do all these different things and answer all these questions and one of the things that you learned was or you better have learned was when someone asked you a question that you don't know you better have a response for and the response is you know master chief but the the improvement of your response from a time when you don't know what's going to happen and you haven't practiced it to a time when you do know what's going to happen you have practiced it is exponential is absolutely exponential well the first time to often commanders hold rehearsals of things their unit should be able to do well without rehearsal I like this because this is like a little bit you know there's this mantra in the games about you should do one foot one third planning one third gear prep one third rehearsal we put all this emphasis in the rehearsal which is awesome and I 100% believe that You don't, and actually you don't have time to know everything you know, but you gotta know enough. but then you got a if you're a woodworker you've got to know the different tools and then you've got to know the different types of wood

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Episode transcript

[00:00:00] This is Jockelpontcast number 255.
[00:00:04] With echo Charles and me, Jockel Willink.
[00:00:07] Good evening, echo.
[00:00:08] Good evening.
[00:00:09] And joining us again is Dave Burke.
[00:00:12] Good evening, Dave.
[00:00:13] Good evening.
[00:00:14] So we go on with guidelines for the leader and commander.
[00:00:21] And I think at this point, I'm not even sure that I'm just doing this purely out of my own joy.
[00:00:29] Having searched for this book for more than a decade, finally found a copy.
[00:00:35] And now I'm making everyone else enjoy it with me.
[00:00:41] We covered this book on 251, 252, 253, 254.
[00:00:47] But there's a reason.
[00:00:48] There's a reason to dig through the past two R roots, two My roots.
[00:00:56] The roots from this book, from a man that served in World War I, World War II, Korea, General
[00:01:01] Pruskark, Bruce Clark, who then overlap that service in Korea with Colonel David Hackworth
[00:01:07] who served in Korea and in Vietnam and who wrote the book about face.
[00:01:11] These are the lessons that I learned that I tried to pass on.
[00:01:16] And the DNA is so clear.
[00:01:19] It's so clear to read this book.
[00:01:25] And see that DNA to find the roots of knowledge and knowing it, we learn more.
[00:01:34] And that's the goal.
[00:01:36] The goal is to learn and improve and get better.
[00:01:40] So guidelines for the leader and commander by General Bruce Clark.
[00:01:46] Here we go.
[00:01:48] Back to the book.
[00:01:49] This next section, and I'll be honest with you.
[00:01:52] The last section, I liked it.
[00:01:54] There's some lessons that some takeaways for sure.
[00:01:58] This one I started getting.
[00:01:59] This one I had a good time with.
[00:02:03] And I was a little worried at first because the last section we were talking about was
[00:02:07] what's talking about training the individual soldier, which to me is like, okay, this
[00:02:11] what we're doing.
[00:02:12] We're talking about the individual soldier.
[00:02:13] I thought that might have been a little bit of a peak, a little bit of a peak where I started
[00:02:19] like this.
[00:02:20] But then I got to this section chapter 10, which is called training the unit.
[00:02:23] And I started saying, okay, which makes sense, right?
[00:02:28] Which makes sense.
[00:02:30] Because certainly there's going to be parallels.
[00:02:32] When you talk about training individual soldiers, but when you start talking about training
[00:02:35] teams and training units, this is where things really start to come to light from a leadership
[00:02:41] perspective.
[00:02:42] So important of unit training.
[00:02:45] The army's investment in the soldier pays off only when the unit is combat ready.
[00:02:50] So training develops combat ready units by welding skills, skilled individuals in the teams
[00:02:55] and combining teams into effective for tunes, companies and combined arms forces.
[00:03:01] It is my purpose in this chapter to highlight the application of principles and techniques
[00:03:05] that will contribute to improving a unit's combat readiness in less time at less cost, thus
[00:03:10] enabling the army to realize full measure from its investment in the soldier and as unit.
[00:03:17] So there you go.
[00:03:18] This is about training that team, getting them to work together.
[00:03:22] Theme of unit combat readiness.
[00:03:25] It has often been said that battles are fought by squads and platoons and one by teamwork
[00:03:31] of small units supported by fire.
[00:03:37] Combat power is inflicted on the enemy by fire and movement.
[00:03:41] There you go.
[00:03:42] Cover move.
[00:03:43] Welcome.
[00:03:44] It's been three paragraphs we're talking about.
[00:03:47] Cover move.
[00:03:48] This is why I started getting fired up.
[00:03:53] The purpose of movement is to get the fire in the most advantageous position to destroy
[00:03:59] the enemy.
[00:04:00] That's a good little thing to think about.
[00:04:03] That's why we cover and move.
[00:04:06] We cover and move to close with and destroy the enemy to get in an advantageous position to
[00:04:10] destroy the enemy.
[00:04:11] That's why we cover and move.
[00:04:12] One must remember however that gasoline, ammunition and other vital supplies are needed to
[00:04:16] sustain tactical operations.
[00:04:18] Accordingly, emphasis on small unit training should habitually stress teamwork to the
[00:04:23] point that tactical execution is accomplished with the same precision as dismounted drill
[00:04:28] that delivery of effective fire is as automatic as gun drill and that's supplied to the
[00:04:34] tactical unit is as responsive in battle as it is in Garrison.
[00:04:39] These battlefield reflections vividly point out the basic theme of small unit combat readiness.
[00:04:45] No small unit training should be undertaken in a vacuum.
[00:04:49] Why is he pointing this out?
[00:04:50] He's pointing this out because in the military it's very easy to silo yourself.
[00:04:56] It's very easy to say I want my platoon to be good so I'm going to go train my platoon.
[00:05:00] I want my company be good so I'm going to train my company.
[00:05:02] I want my battalion to be good so I'm just going to go train my battalion over here in
[00:05:05] a vacuum.
[00:05:07] If you're doing that you're wrong in any organization.
[00:05:11] If you're a sales person and you're not training alongside the operations people to make
[00:05:15] sure that you know how to communicate to them what you want and they know how to communicate
[00:05:21] to you what they can deliver.
[00:05:24] What about the IT group?
[00:05:25] Do they understand how to handle the threshold of emails that you're going to be getting?
[00:05:29] When you offer this new practice, all these things that need you need to work together.
[00:05:36] Sometimes it's because of internal competition as well.
[00:05:41] Wait that's why we wouldn't train together.
[00:05:43] Maybe or maybe but I think it's just like the straight up silos.
[00:05:51] You know what I'm saying?
[00:05:52] The straight up like hey this is my platoon I'm going to take care of my platoon.
[00:05:55] This is my division I'm going to take care of my platoon.
[00:05:56] This is my department I'm going to take care of my department.
[00:05:58] So like you're not thinking about necessarily the other guys or you're just like
[00:06:03] me and leave me alone.
[00:06:06] I think it could be either a real negative attitude but it could also be just a positive
[00:06:12] attitude that's like hey I'm going to train my platoon.
[00:06:14] That's what you're focused on.
[00:06:15] Yeah I'm going to train my platoon.
[00:06:16] Come here I'm going to train my platoon.
[00:06:18] We are going to be ready.
[00:06:20] Here's the problem you can be ready but if you can't call for fire correctly it doesn't
[00:06:23] matter if you've never coordinated with a QRF before it doesn't matter when that
[00:06:27] QRF is needed you don't know what you're doing.
[00:06:31] It happens in business too.
[00:06:33] Hey you know we're like I said we're the sales team.
[00:06:37] We don't care I'm not going to I don't need to train the the customer satisfaction group
[00:06:44] I don't need to train with them that's not my deal right.
[00:06:47] I don't care what happens when you know once I sell the product I don't care what happens
[00:06:51] oh really you should care what happens because if the client calls customer satisfaction
[00:06:57] it looks for a solution to a problem that they've got is they're implementing the thing
[00:07:00] that you just sold them and the solution isn't there guess what you're not getting good
[00:07:04] reviews and you're not going to sell anymore product to that company.
[00:07:08] Is the name customer satisfaction department is that it?
[00:07:12] Yeah yeah.
[00:07:13] Yeah we're sometimes they call it client implementation there's many many organizations
[00:07:17] that are set up in such a way that there's someone that sells the product and then there's
[00:07:20] someone that helps them implement the product and that's customer satisfaction.
[00:07:24] Could be customer satisfaction client satisfaction for some other names for a day if
[00:07:28] you can you think of any customer service tech support yeah stuff like that tech support
[00:07:32] that's a good one tech support you might think of like that's a broad based like hey I've
[00:07:37] had this computer for two years and now it's not working.
[00:07:41] What's all I'm talking about companies where you buy a new system of software for your
[00:07:47] organization like a solar panel.
[00:07:50] I guess home by a solar panel for your roof.
[00:07:55] Well let's say let's say you did that maybe you buy solar panels for your roof right
[00:08:00] and then great you're the salesman you sell them to me guess what you're done when you're
[00:08:04] done selling me my solar panels you're on trying to sell the next pair.
[00:08:07] So when I call because the installation I'm having a hard time with I call customer satisfaction
[00:08:13] it's Dave Dave picks up the phone hey I just ordered this thing and now he says well
[00:08:19] how many you know and I say look we're having trouble installing this it doesn't fit
[00:08:22] on my roof right and you say okay well how many panels did you get and what size are
[00:08:29] they and all of a sudden he realizes that he needs to give you feedback that listen if the
[00:08:35] roof is this angle fits a different way and so now you can sell the product better and
[00:08:41] that will keep people more satisfied you can also do a follow-up called me and say hey
[00:08:45] hey sir I'm really sorry when I measured your roof I thought it was this angle and so
[00:08:50] I I I told you this thing here's what we're gonna do we're actually to come out and pick
[00:08:53] up three of the panels that you're not gonna need anymore and I'm gonna you know I'm gonna
[00:08:57] give you a 10% rebate and we're also sending an installer out there to give you a hand
[00:09:02] and boom right now I'm taking care of we're all happy now we guess what I'm doing when somebody
[00:09:06] asked me oh you got solar panels what company and I say oh echoes solar panels is it a
[00:09:11] good company yeah you know it was a little rough but they got everything taken care of
[00:09:14] you should definitely call them you see what I'm going with us yeah fully in the
[00:09:18] world you just took me down the rabbit hole solar installation that was good
[00:09:23] maybe not the best example but you did good I'm over here to run with it yeah yeah
[00:09:27] yeah that's good we're here to make it happen what do you got but yeah because I
[00:09:30] you don't really think about that when you're at work you know where you kind of
[00:09:35] want to be the best worker in company sure you know but the customer like experience
[00:09:40] is kind of the whole deal you know you know how like man when you leave your review
[00:09:44] you're like great product bad customer service and that can be like well that sucks
[00:09:48] because I need some customer service kind of thing so it's kind of a downer you know
[00:09:51] yeah because we're not thinking everything's going to work perfect every single time right
[00:09:54] I'm not necessarily you seem to say but I'm saying like you know you have these elements
[00:09:58] of a product or service that are all to the customer it's like it's all the same thing
[00:10:05] I'm not going to go to this person just for one thing I'm going to go I mean as far as
[00:10:09] one quality of their product they're going to they'll get turned off by other
[00:10:14] departments so if you work there for your just focus on yours rather that affects you
[00:10:19] that's what general car is saying you have to interact with other people inside
[00:10:24] your organization and if you're not doing that you're wrong you're wrong fast forward a
[00:10:31] little training philosophy the basic the basic philosophy of successful training is
[00:10:34] that of obtaining superior results with average personnel god I love that
[00:10:41] with a reason or training is to take average people and make them exceptional superior results
[00:10:46] a unit to be truly outstanding should be excellent in all undertakings and activities
[00:10:52] commanders must know and understand that capabilities and limitations of personnel
[00:10:56] and set high and exacting standards of capabilities of the high ability of a group of
[00:11:02] units personnel this tends to give the low ability group a hopeless feeling because of
[00:11:08] having to compete against a standard which they cannot attain a unit satisfactory and all things
[00:11:14] is better than one outstanding in some excellent in others and unsatisfactory in a few
[00:11:23] that's a good thing to think about you know it's better to be good at a bunch I
[00:11:31] good at everything then outstanding at this one thing okay it's some other things in unsack
[00:11:36] in some final things
[00:11:41] next section fast forward a little bit emphasize fundamentals the basic difference between
[00:11:46] well trained unit and one that is not well trained is found in the attention paid to the
[00:11:50] fundamentals of marksmanship chemical biological and radiological warfare communications
[00:11:55] maintenance administration in all other arts and skills that contribute to making the unit
[00:11:59] combat ready in the shortest possible time a well trained soldier is the only foundation upon
[00:12:04] which effective combat ready units can be built when the soldier fails to demonstrate
[00:12:08] proficiency in individual skills the army's investment is wasted and the combat readiness of the
[00:12:14] unit is diminished each commander should approach his problems of combat readiness with a sense of
[00:12:21] wartime urgency there is no magic formula no sweatless solution to achieving a high state
[00:12:31] of combat readiness in a unit application the fundamentals enumerated below however will help
[00:12:36] so that by the way sweatless solution you've heard that before right that's that's that's hack
[00:12:42] well hack took that actual phrase and I was I had tried to find it in about face and of course
[00:12:49] that about faces 836 pages and I was like oh I know it's in here somewhere after I've
[00:12:53] I've done it on the podcast I've talked about the sweatless solution there is no sweatless solution
[00:12:58] we've covered that on the podcast you may have wondered where he got I was thought he made it up right
[00:13:02] of course we thought he made it up if you ever heard me say it maybe thought I made it up I didn't
[00:13:07] make it up neither do the hack there you go I believe the source is general clerk
[00:13:13] sweatless solution that's like that's that stuck with me for a long time still is with me really
[00:13:20] because sweat in part of it is yes because I had to admit to myself brother to me a lot of the time
[00:13:25] I'm looking for that sweatless this faith in the space I've been if you can go and get like
[00:13:31] you know the kind where okay the other day echo Charles going deep standby
[00:13:38] get some so I'm sitting on the couch right in big shocker there's a there's a so the remote control
[00:13:47] I have the kind where you know like the remote control for the cable and then for the volume
[00:13:51] they're two different okay so I got the one for the cable but I was like the volume one is
[00:13:59] like the volume one is somewhere else you know the kind you're looking around has to be close to you
[00:14:05] right because it's not like it's you know in the next room or something like that's not it
[00:14:08] doesn't have it's not gonna go far it's but it's around here somewhere right this is what we train for
[00:14:13] bro talking about this is a loose there so you know you kind of look around your little vicinity
[00:14:21] or whatever I'm not getting up though bro I'm already sitting down that might cause me to sweat a
[00:14:26] little bit but whatever so I'm looking around and I turn around and we have this ledge like behind
[00:14:31] the couch they're you know that ledge there and I look and it's behind me but it's the kind
[00:14:37] of incident this weird spot where I can't like I gotta stand up just if I want to stood up
[00:14:42] when I first saw it but I would have had the remote control enjoying some television at this
[00:14:46] point but I'm like trying to contort my body like all weird it was weird it was almost like I was
[00:14:51] putting more effort into my sweatless solution then actual energy would have been expanded if I went
[00:14:59] for the sweat solution the real one you know put it in just stand up for a second you know but I'm saying
[00:15:05] okay so the point the point the point the point is the point is bro I'm talking about hack or
[00:15:17] I'm talking about general Clark he served in World War World War 2 Korea and the
[00:15:21] current was a non-most decorated soldier you couldn't get your remote I could one I'm saying is
[00:15:30] sometimes we ask the people sometimes we put so much effort into looking for a sweatless solution
[00:15:38] okay seems like as a philosophy you know and how general Clark is saying subsequently hack
[00:15:45] worse subsequently Choco whether they're saying stop looking for the sweatless solution stop like straight up
[00:15:52] but just do the work stand up get through the remote control
[00:15:57] whatever this may be the apex of the echo Charles examples of just saying there's a lot of those
[00:16:06] you look like when you're vacuuming and you see the little thing it doesn't want to get sucked up by
[00:16:10] the vacuum just been no picking up you should and I don't want to do that so you're like
[00:16:15] kick it to try to get it loose you whatever I'm just saying these lessons are kind of everywhere
[00:16:21] when you think of it you don't say alright man general Clark would agree I mean I know he definitely
[00:16:29] would when he wasn't like on the line yeah of course fighting the Nazis yeah or fighting the
[00:16:36] communists yeah these guys didn't even have remote controls bro yeah excuse more counterice
[00:16:43] for I will be just trying to understand alright well there you go alright so back to the book
[00:16:51] he's talking about the things that you can you can do to keep a unit trained up number one
[00:16:55] do essential things first there's not enough time for the commander to do everything
[00:17:00] each commander will have to determine wisely what is essential and a sign response abilities for
[00:17:04] accomplishment he should spend the remaining time on near essentials this is especially true of
[00:17:09] training not essential should not take up required time required for essentials what do we call that
[00:17:15] we call that prioritize next year next thing do things right the first time
[00:17:23] the commander should not consider his unit ready for battle until it can carry out a plan well the first
[00:17:29] time to often commanders hold rehearsals of things their unit should be able to do well without
[00:17:34] rehearsal I like this because this is like a little bit you know there's this mantra in the
[00:17:40] games about you should do one foot one third planning one third gear prep one third rehearsal we
[00:17:46] put all this emphasis in the rehearsal which is awesome and I 100% believe that but you should
[00:17:51] there's things that you shouldn't have to rehearse right and that's what he said or something
[00:17:55] he just just know should have some some standard operating positions that you should know
[00:17:59] look are we gonna rehearse some yes we are but you should know you shouldn't need you should
[00:18:04] rehearse him you shouldn't have to rehearse but you should rehearse I rehearse everything
[00:18:11] this practice causes officers and men expecting a dry run or two to pay little attention to
[00:18:17] initial instructions and to make inadequate preparations there will be no dry runs in combat
[00:18:25] it is good to issue adequate instructions and hold officers and men to them the first time
[00:18:30] that's something that I wish I would have learned imagine saying hey look hey look I'm going to tell
[00:18:36] you guys this one time there we're going to go execute no rehearsals just to see just to just
[00:18:41] to get people in the mindset of paying attention and figuring out where your directions and your
[00:18:47] planning is a short fall because if I can't say okay Dave here's what we're going to do you're
[00:18:53] going to go in this building I'm going to go in this building you're going to take your squad
[00:18:56] you're going to move to here you're going to move to there does everyone understand all right we're
[00:18:58] going to go do it right now in this training exercise with no rehearsals that will show us the short
[00:19:06] falls of our planning and our communication it will also show the team short falls and when they
[00:19:13] don't know what to do they should raise their hand and say hey boss that doesn't make sense to me
[00:19:16] right now hold on a second let me hear that again I don't understand that part
[00:19:20] practice more than one thing at a time okay so wait a second are we going against prioritize
[00:19:31] next cue does that what's happening no actually whenever I see a unit practicing only one thing
[00:19:35] at a time I'd remember of the history paper my son brought home one day the grammar construction
[00:19:40] and spelling were not good this is very poor English I told him but daddy said I was only being tested
[00:19:46] in history sound training requires that many subjects be skillfully integrated and taught
[00:19:52] concurrently this is an excellent time saver in training and he goes through this and any what he's
[00:20:00] saying is look you gotta do multiple things at the same time and even though prioritize an
[00:20:04] execute when you got multiple problems and you can't try and solve them all at the same time that
[00:20:09] doesn't mean that you're gonna say hold on a second we need to move towards the target but we also
[00:20:17] need to make communications we can only do one at a time no there's things that you have to do concurrently
[00:20:24] and that can include hey we've got to move wounded people and we've got to fight a firefight if we
[00:20:30] only ever practice just getting in a firefight and just moving people how do we know how to do
[00:20:36] both those things at the same time which you may have to do so do you have to prioritize next
[00:20:41] you yes you do but guess what you also have to learn how to do things concurrently
[00:20:49] he says a paper integration and training schedule is not efficient so just like talking about
[00:20:54] it well you know if we have to do move a wounded guy while we're in a firefight well then
[00:21:00] we'll just do this xyz no you have to try it which is contradictory to rehearsals right
[00:21:06] no don't don't don't do rehearsals yes do rehearsals a commander should take every opportunity to
[00:21:14] exploit the effects of integrated training it is the key to accelerate intensified unit combat
[00:21:18] training in effect it increases the amount of available training time good eliminate the habit
[00:21:24] eliminate the administrative habit in training I'm convinced that all commanders should take maximum
[00:21:29] advantage of field training time to develop correct tactical practices and procedures we talked
[00:21:35] about that one last time practice dispersion concealment and can of camouflage the penalty for bad
[00:21:41] habits and passive measures in air defense or warrants special mentioned the day when American
[00:21:47] soldier could be relaxed about dispersion concealment and camouflage is in the past so how does this
[00:21:55] apply to everyday life and business train how you fight train how you fight know the status of
[00:22:03] men and equipment check up on those that are absentee from training practice maintenance in the field
[00:22:12] practice and he's got little sections about these each one of these practice sound troop leading
[00:22:17] procedures the subject of troop leading procedures and allied techniques requires increased emphasis
[00:22:23] on tactical exercises fundamentals found in field manuals and related publications are worthy of stress
[00:22:29] sound command procedures diligently practiced in all field training will form good habits in the unit
[00:22:35] commander form the checklist habit meticulous planning and reconnaissance are required to make sure
[00:22:45] that every minute in the field will be expanded profitably check this for this purpose are
[00:22:50] necessary command and staff tool just as they are for supervising and testing the conduct of training
[00:22:56] what do you got I got the same thing I keep thinking about every time I hear what he has to say he he keeps
[00:23:02] repeating fundamental sound realistic fundamentals these are the fundamental to the basic things all
[00:23:10] the basic things associated with their job and being good at those things and training in a real
[00:23:17] asexinereo there's a lot obviously general carcass talking about war he's recounting his experiences
[00:23:27] war I hear what he's saying is connecting it to war but the the application of these things as I keep
[00:23:34] hearing it in my head hearing what you're saying and thinking about the things I'm thinking about now
[00:23:38] if you are in the private sector anywhere the private sector unless you happen to be
[00:23:44] in one of the rare sectors that's not competitive and there are almost none if you are in the
[00:23:51] if you are in the American capitalist private sector you are at war your competitors
[00:23:59] don't want to share space with you they don't want to cooperate with you to to work in harmony
[00:24:04] to they want to run you over they want to take all of your clients all of your market share
[00:24:09] and all of your product they want to take all that from you and the way you are successful is the
[00:24:14] exact same things your people have to be trained on the fundamentals and everything that applies to
[00:24:19] them and the only way to do that is to find a way to train them realistically that replicates what
[00:24:24] they're going to deal with in the real war in their real world it's just kind of crazy how
[00:24:31] while it seems difficult to make the connection to his world the connection is so straightforward
[00:24:37] to any world that you're operating in you know I've broached this subject before and I'm sure
[00:24:43] there's got to be some kind of scientific or psychological experiment or whatever but the
[00:24:55] the improvement of your response from a time when you don't know what's going to happen and you
[00:25:05] haven't practiced it to a time when you do know what's going to happen you have practiced it
[00:25:09] is exponential is absolutely exponential and we see this all the time and that's not
[00:25:14] front when we roll play with people totally we put up someone in a role playing scenario
[00:25:18] and and they say we know I've got to go talk to this I'm going to talk to my subordinate leader who's
[00:25:22] got a giant ego and okay roll in there and just talk to him see how that goes it's going to be a
[00:25:29] disaster so you roll play and guess what the first time you roll play it's a disaster the second time
[00:25:34] it's 10 times better yeah and then the third time it's 15 times better and then the fourth time
[00:25:39] it's 17 times better but that first look that first look that you get when you know a little bit of
[00:25:46] what to expect man you are just you're you're exponentially more prepared for that situation
[00:25:54] and and we know when you're in a leadership position you're going to roll into a meeting where you've
[00:25:59] got to deliver some bad news to the troops you know what they're going to say you know there's
[00:26:04] eight responses you're going to get why not think through those things why not think through those things
[00:26:10] you're going to talk to a client that you've disappointed you've let down you've made a mistake
[00:26:13] you know they're going to have one of six different reactions why not work through those why not
[00:26:20] have a contingency plan for each one of those six things this will take you four minutes to do
[00:26:25] it'll take you and I four minutes to roll play may it'll take us five ten minutes to roll play
[00:26:30] the six different responses when I roll into you and I say hey Dave listen I know we promised you
[00:26:35] this product on this date we ran into some hiccups here's the mistakes that I made here's what
[00:26:41] we're going to try and do to resolve it you're only going to be able to say so many different
[00:26:45] things back to me and and depending on how I respond I could either salvage that relationship or
[00:26:50] I could destroy it so why would we not train to be prepared for this there's no reason there's no
[00:26:56] excuse for it it doesn't take a week to train for that situation takes ten minutes it does it takes
[00:27:02] ten minutes if your own brain is the only place where you consider the potential outcomes of that
[00:27:09] conversation you're going to miss so many things if I get one other person sit across for me
[00:27:15] to answer in any way that they want how I'm going to interact with them I actually now a reveal
[00:27:23] the well I didn't expect that I didn't see that coming I don't know what to say here
[00:27:27] and you also have to have the other person to just interact with you in a way that helps you anticipate
[00:27:33] a real response that you won't consider if you do it in your own brain which is a vacuum
[00:27:39] because what you can convince yourself is oh this isn't going to be that hard of a conversation I'm
[00:27:43] just going to say this he's going to say that and everything's going to be fine the role play
[00:27:47] winners we do to just to add one more thing to that when we do role play it usually comes right
[00:27:54] after we've done the initial training where we explain it he's and he talked about this that is
[00:28:00] that is paper training hey this is what we're going to do and it makes sense we think we understand
[00:28:05] it in our heads it resonates and we can explain these principles and we say okay let's roll
[00:28:10] model this the first role role play the first role play is always a disaster even when we just talked
[00:28:17] about it because on paper isn't enough it's not enough and three role plays later five minutes
[00:28:26] later they've gone from here to way up here and then they can actually go have that conversation
[00:28:31] in real life in real time with the real person that need to talk to you that five minutes of live
[00:28:36] realistic fundamental training is the difference this brings up another topic so I said hey look this
[00:28:45] this individual is only got to have six different responses right there's a seventh and the seventh
[00:28:51] is one that you didn't predict you didn't understand and you didn't think could come and guess what you can
[00:28:57] actually train your response for the thing that you just came that came completely out of left
[00:29:01] field and it might be as simple as when Dave if Dave says something to me that I had no anticipation
[00:29:08] and it doesn't make any sense to me what am I going to do you know what I'm going to do?
[00:29:12] I'm going to say if Dave says to me well I'll tell you what not only do we want our money back
[00:29:17] I want to I want to take you guys to court I didn't expect him to say that our relationship was not
[00:29:22] bad and I you know my response to him if I don't know what else to say I'm going to say
[00:29:30] Dave you know what I need to think about this for a minute let me just think about what you're saying
[00:29:35] because I want to make sure I understand that right there that right there is a response and it
[00:29:40] and if I'm prepared for it you know here's a funny one when it used to be back in the day and the
[00:29:45] deems when you would go to get your seal tried it you had it you should you got done with
[00:29:52] buds you went to a team you went through more training and then you were on probation for six
[00:29:56] months and then you had to go do an oral board for all the different departments and you had to go
[00:30:02] and program the radios and break down the weapons and build demolition charges and you know show
[00:30:08] how to put on a parachute rig and set up a diary you had to do all these different things
[00:30:11] and answer all these questions and one of the things that you learned was or you better have learned
[00:30:17] was when someone asked you a question that you don't know you better have a response for and the
[00:30:23] response is you know master chief I'm not exactly sure of the answer to that question but I know
[00:30:28] that it is in the dive manual that I can find down in the dive locker that's great that's
[00:30:33] that's a that's a response that the master chief says all right fair enough we'll go you better get
[00:30:38] you better start learning a little bit deeper but if you go oh oh oh is it 30 feet for 30 minutes
[00:30:47] no it's not 30 feet for 30 minutes you try and BS the master chief and you're going to end up
[00:30:53] getting your ass kicked so what you do is you and we did this we roleplayed the the oral board
[00:31:01] me and my friends that had showed up at sealed team one and we'd gone through this training
[00:31:04] and now we were getting ready for that all but we we crushed each other in those oral boards
[00:31:09] and one of the things that we figured out was which we got you know some of the senior guys said
[00:31:13] hey listen if you don't know the answer it's okay here's the response but rehearsing that and
[00:31:18] being ready for it is infinitely better than no rehearsal going there blind and get get smacked
[00:31:26] upside the head with something you didn't expect that you will talk yourself into that you've
[00:31:31] got to cover if you're doing this alone you'll tell yourself this isn't gonna be that hard I
[00:31:35] got this covered and you go in there solo you're gonna get crushed because you just you don't
[00:31:40] have that other person that to put you in a spot and go wow hang on a second training is important yes
[00:31:49] he breaks down here organization for unit training training plans
[00:31:54] comprehensible and workable plans are indispensable and should be formulated with consideration of the
[00:31:59] falling for essentials established training goals that's number one number two continuous evaluation
[00:32:07] this process must go on throughout the training cycle and as an integral part of it
[00:32:14] only by continuous evaluation can deficiencies be discovered early enough to make immediate
[00:32:19] correction possible number three testing closely related to evaluation is the more formal testing
[00:32:26] that is given to an individual or unit at the conclusion of a phase of training or block of
[00:32:30] instruction it's here that we determine whether our training goals have been met number four
[00:32:35] remedial training I must emphasize here the value of remedial or makeup training once event once a
[00:32:42] valuation in testing have identified the areas of deficiency remedial training must be used to correct them
[00:32:48] it should be an integral part of every training schedule of course the instruction will be designed to
[00:32:53] overcome specific weaknesses that have been exposed by the testing program and will have
[00:32:58] to be keyed to the specific needs of your unit it is essential however that remedial training
[00:33:03] be regularly scheduled gosh that makes sense so those are the four things established training goals
[00:33:10] continuous evaluation testing and remedial training what would that was their tests whether tests
[00:33:18] at each phase of top gun as you are going through the training yeah absolutely what was an example of
[00:33:25] a test the most common test that we give is that we'd want to make sure the students understood
[00:33:30] the mechanics of a system so how a missile system worked how the targeting system worked how the
[00:33:35] radar system worked you out we wanted to make sure they understood the mechanics of it
[00:33:39] before they use it in practical terms it probably isn't too much different than your experience
[00:33:45] of understanding how the radios worked before you were using them in the field right you have
[00:33:49] to understand hf propagation yeah you did you have to understand the i honest fear you you
[00:33:55] absolutely did because what happened is you're going to find yourself in a position and this is
[00:33:59] me I don't know I wasn't that position is if you're in a particular geography particular place
[00:34:04] and talking to a particular other person some radios going to work better than other radios
[00:34:09] this is true you might need to know hey you know what we're like in the bushes here in the
[00:34:13] in the wilderness so in the jungle this radio doesn't work here doesn't penetrate through this
[00:34:17] this thing so there's a million different examples of that if you get that out of order and you
[00:34:22] just work you you learn how to maneuver the system like my my my cursor moves at the here I
[00:34:27] move my my cursor on the display here and you don't actually know what's happening to the mechanics
[00:34:31] behind that you're going to start making mistakes inside in specific settings oh it work here
[00:34:38] so much work everywhere like no it doesn't work everywhere this environment is optimized here
[00:34:42] this environment it doesn't work at all and if all you know is the mechanics and not what's
[00:34:45] happening behind it you actually can't apply it when it matters the most you know what that made me
[00:34:50] think of the book Leadership Strategy and Tactics by me because it's I say an exact same thing
[00:34:57] but when I'm talking I compare I compare a leader to a woodworker and talk about the fact
[00:35:03] that you know when you're a leader you got to know the different tools but then you got a
[00:35:08] if you're a woodworker you've got to know the different tools and then you've got to know the
[00:35:11] different types of wood and then you've got to know how to apply those different types
[00:35:14] those different tools to different types of wood and then you've got to realize that even
[00:35:17] each individual piece of wood, a piece of pine is super soft,
[00:35:21] a piece of oak is super hard.
[00:35:22] You gotta use those tools differently
[00:35:24] with those different types of wood,
[00:35:26] and then on top of that,
[00:35:28] each individual piece of pine is different.
[00:35:31] It has a not, it has a rift, it has a cut,
[00:35:34] it has a split, and you gotta know how to deal with that.
[00:35:37] So you gotta understand the principles of the tools.
[00:35:42] I may regularly plagiarize the hell at that book,
[00:35:45] but I don't know where to go.
[00:35:46] Check.
[00:35:49] Talks about assignment of administrative tasks.
[00:35:51] He talks about when a unit is under strength.
[00:35:54] Reduce strengths must be offset
[00:35:57] by more efficient utilization of men and women.
[00:35:59] Now, you know, I gotta ask this question today,
[00:36:00] we've buy a client.
[00:36:01] Yeah, but we don't, we don't, we don't,
[00:36:03] we need more people.
[00:36:04] Guess what, everybody, everybody needs more people.
[00:36:08] We got visited by a senior ranking officer
[00:36:12] in the Seal Teams, what are we in the Rmadi?
[00:36:14] And at Lafelite's tell the story,
[00:36:16] the, you know, great, great officer, huge supporter,
[00:36:20] says, hey, what else do you need out here?
[00:36:23] Is there anything else you need?
[00:36:24] And I said, I need two more tasks units worth of men.
[00:36:27] You know, like we had enough missions to get everybody busy.
[00:36:32] But guess what, we didn't get anybody.
[00:36:33] We didn't, you know, like that's the way it works.
[00:36:37] Next little section in Jack Realism.
[00:36:40] The experienced commander knows that soldiers do
[00:36:44] and combat exactly what they have been taught
[00:36:46] and have practiced in training.
[00:36:47] Therefore, each training situation and problem
[00:36:50] must be as valid and realistic as possible
[00:36:52] with unreal or artificial aspects eliminated.
[00:36:56] Training must reflect as many of the conditions,
[00:36:59] scenes, noises and situations of the battlefield
[00:37:02] as ingenuity can conceive and safety rules will permit.
[00:37:07] And I remember, I remember I put on, we'd be doing,
[00:37:13] when I got back from my last plan,
[00:37:15] when we got back from Madi and I took over training,
[00:37:18] a few months into that, when you would put on your nods
[00:37:21] at night, you would, you might as well be in Iraq.
[00:37:24] You might as well have been in Iraq.
[00:37:26] We had, we had the, the speakers playing gun battles
[00:37:30] and called a prayer.
[00:37:31] We had tires burning.
[00:37:33] We had people dressed up like, you know, local Iraq.
[00:37:36] He said, it's in walking around.
[00:37:38] It was freaking awesome.
[00:37:40] It was freaking awesome.
[00:37:42] That's what you're supposed to do.
[00:37:46] Damn, I remember that.
[00:37:47] The first time we were rolling into the Moulab
[00:37:49] and it was early in the morning.
[00:37:51] It was, it was actually when the blue on blue happened
[00:37:54] in extreme ownership, but we were rolling in there.
[00:37:58] I remember rolling in like there's tires burning in the streets
[00:38:01] and yeah, I was like, okay,
[00:38:04] because what does that do that screws up your nods?
[00:38:06] And luckily the sun was coming up,
[00:38:08] but it was still dark outside,
[00:38:09] but I'm thinking these, these Mujahideen fighters,
[00:38:12] know what they're doing.
[00:38:13] These guys know what they're doing.
[00:38:15] They're, and then guess what?
[00:38:16] So it messes up your night vision,
[00:38:18] we understand that these burning fires
[00:38:19] and then the sun comes up.
[00:38:21] Well now there's just black, smoke everywhere.
[00:38:27] And you can gear and damn,
[00:38:29] to you that when I got back and I was running training,
[00:38:33] you rolled out of the street.
[00:38:34] We're burning tires.
[00:38:35] Your night vision is gonna be all jacked up
[00:38:37] and when you're done with the night vision being all jacked up
[00:38:39] and the sun comes up, guess what?
[00:38:41] It's gonna be black smoke everywhere.
[00:38:44] One of the best ways to emphasize realism
[00:38:47] is to assess personnel casualties
[00:38:50] for improper use of cover, or in the case of night exercise
[00:38:53] as vehicles can be knocked out for on off,
[00:38:55] rise to use of nights.
[00:38:56] What does that mean you're putting people down?
[00:38:58] This is like trade-et instructions.
[00:39:00] I might as well have written this for trade-et to use.
[00:39:04] This is exactly what we did.
[00:39:06] Oh, you're not saying to my cover, cool, you're dead.
[00:39:09] Oh, you're gonna move out, cross an open street
[00:39:11] without any cover fire, Roger that, you're dead,
[00:39:12] you're down, man.
[00:39:13] Now let's get this thing figured out.
[00:39:15] Oh, by the way, your buddy wants to come help you immediately
[00:39:17] without putting down suppressor fire, cool, he's dead too.
[00:39:19] Let's rock and roll, who wants to figure this out?
[00:39:21] Who wants to put the cover in cover, move?
[00:39:24] Dude, you're literally like,
[00:39:26] I wrote that thing down fundamental sound and realistic.
[00:39:28] Oh, cool, you're not applying the fundamentals?
[00:39:29] Good, you're dead.
[00:39:30] Oh, your tactics aren't sound?
[00:39:32] Cool, he's gone.
[00:39:32] Now what are you gonna do?
[00:39:33] I mean, I should have a track,
[00:39:35] or I should literally just be marking how many times he and you
[00:39:38] were referring back to the realism that's required.
[00:39:41] And the beauty of that, especially when you have experiences,
[00:39:44] it completely takes away the ammunition of,
[00:39:47] this would never happen.
[00:39:48] Or this is unrealistic, you know,
[00:39:50] them the, the, the, the, the unwindable scenarios,
[00:39:53] we go, well, this would never happen.
[00:39:54] Oh, really?
[00:39:55] Oh, cool, this would never happen.
[00:39:56] Watch this.
[00:39:57] Yeah.
[00:39:58] And the easier the training is,
[00:40:00] the more acclimated people get to things being easy.
[00:40:04] And the more unwilling they are to believe how difficult
[00:40:06] they can be.
[00:40:08] And when you're training is realistic,
[00:40:09] how many times have you told me
[00:40:10] and everybody the story of Seth's first firefighter,
[00:40:13] and the guys like, wow, how many firefighters have you been in?
[00:40:18] You must be, and he's like,
[00:40:20] it was my first one.
[00:40:21] That was my first one.
[00:40:22] That comes from fundamental sound, realistic training.
[00:40:24] Yeah. And putting that guy in position,
[00:40:26] I might not be in a, I don't know what this is.
[00:40:27] I can't recreate this scenario.
[00:40:28] I don't know exactly how it's gonna play out,
[00:40:30] but I do know what it's gonna be.
[00:40:32] I do understand how this is gonna reveal itself.
[00:40:34] And the only way to prepare for that is
[00:40:36] fundamental sound, realistic training,
[00:40:37] over and over and over again.
[00:40:43] Emphasis on night training.
[00:40:45] Self-sufficiency and confidence,
[00:40:47] our key factors in developing a unit's capability
[00:40:50] for night operations.
[00:40:51] And this was just, you know,
[00:40:53] not gonna spend a bunch of time on this because now
[00:40:55] we've got night vision, but what is more important?
[00:40:58] What do we talk about?
[00:40:59] Talk about night vision versus night night vision.
[00:41:01] What I'm talking about is, put your troops
[00:41:04] into hard training situations.
[00:41:06] That's what you need to do.
[00:41:08] Put your troops into the most difficult of situations
[00:41:11] because when you're used to fighting at night,
[00:41:12] even a pretty night vision,
[00:41:14] if you're used to fighting at night,
[00:41:16] number one, yes, you get used to it.
[00:41:17] Number two, fighting at the day becomes easy.
[00:41:21] It makes fighting at the day become easy.
[00:41:24] And it also gives you a potential advantage.
[00:41:26] If it just so happens that your competition
[00:41:28] isn't willing to put in the hard training at night,
[00:41:32] good, you're gonna dominate.
[00:41:35] It's the same thing here,
[00:41:36] Incoming weather training.
[00:41:38] I gotta read this one though, because it's funny.
[00:41:40] Adverse weather will inevitably be encountered
[00:41:43] and combat and will give rise to problems
[00:41:45] that can best be solved by experience.
[00:41:47] It will have an impact on a mobility,
[00:41:48] on maintenance of vehicle and equipment,
[00:41:50] on observation on the availability of tactical air support
[00:41:53] and in fact will hinder tactical operations
[00:41:55] in every conceivable way.
[00:41:57] Adverse weather conditions can be turned into
[00:41:59] an asset during battle, however.
[00:42:01] Boom, there you go.
[00:42:02] So we're already, look, bad weather, good.
[00:42:06] Commanders should take every advantage
[00:42:08] of training under such conditions.
[00:42:10] Troops who have mastered the problems
[00:42:12] of operating effectively in spite of the weather
[00:42:14] can turn low visibility, extreme height,
[00:42:17] biting cold or heavy rain into tactical advantage
[00:42:21] against an enemy not so well adapted
[00:42:23] to these adverse conditions.
[00:42:25] So that's everything you just said, and it's this,
[00:42:28] the solution of rainy day schedule is to put on the raincoat
[00:42:32] and take full advantage the adverse conditions
[00:42:34] for profitable field training and experience.
[00:42:38] Totally legit.
[00:42:39] You know what's fun in the in the teams?
[00:42:44] When there's giant waves like when a massive storm comes
[00:42:50] and there's massive just destroyer waves,
[00:42:54] it's like time to go out and do surf passage
[00:42:56] with the zodiacs and just get annihilated.
[00:42:58] It's so fun.
[00:43:00] I think that with bud students, oh, it's below.
[00:43:02] The waves are freaking just giant cool.
[00:43:03] Get your boats, you're going to do surf passage
[00:43:05] or sometimes get to get your swim in the teams.
[00:43:08] It was a hey, rig up the zodiacs.
[00:43:09] We're going to go get some experience and this stuff.
[00:43:11] That's which absolutely you have to do.
[00:43:13] If you're in the teams and there's big waves
[00:43:15] in Coronado or Virginia Beach
[00:43:18] and you're not getting shocked up to go get some,
[00:43:21] you're wrong, get your platoon together
[00:43:23] and get them out there and get them after it.
[00:43:27] Cross training for flexibility,
[00:43:28] cross training is vital to any organization.
[00:43:30] When your personnel are trained in several jobs,
[00:43:32] you have achieved depth and capability
[00:43:34] that may well split the difference
[00:43:36] between success and failure and combat.
[00:43:40] Of course, needless switching of personnel
[00:43:43] from one job to another is harmful.
[00:43:45] So cross train, but that doesn't mean you switch them
[00:43:47] completely.
[00:43:47] Training personnel and duties other than their primary
[00:43:50] MLS, however, will increase your peace time efficiency
[00:43:52] and subsequent combat effectiveness.
[00:43:54] It will also make the individual a more valuable asset
[00:43:57] to the Army increases pride in self confidence
[00:44:00] and may well help them qualify for promotion.
[00:44:02] But a little time spent cross training
[00:44:05] will be amply rewarded in the increased overall
[00:44:09] effectiveness of your unit.
[00:44:10] Everyone will benefit.
[00:44:12] Not the least of you is the commander.
[00:44:13] He's throw his that in there.
[00:44:14] Everyone's so nice.
[00:44:15] Got a little eat.
[00:44:15] Let's look south.
[00:44:17] Everyone's in the wild.
[00:44:19] We hear it.
[00:44:20] Got to be something driving this guy to do 45 years
[00:44:22] in the Army I reckon.
[00:44:24] But he likes that.
[00:44:26] Take care of the troops.
[00:44:27] Also, a little Benny.
[00:44:29] A little side Benny for the man.
[00:44:34] Chaining, chain of command, a good organization always has
[00:44:37] a smoothly functioning chain of command,
[00:44:39] a sound training program properly supervised
[00:44:41] can be the primary means of developing
[00:44:43] the proper functioning of the chain of command,
[00:44:46] which is also essential.
[00:44:46] And combat, a good commander will guide the development
[00:44:49] of his unit to ensure that subordinate
[00:44:50] commanders retain and use their authority and responsibility
[00:44:54] in any unit.
[00:44:55] The non-commissioner officer plays a leading role.
[00:44:57] That's your front line managers.
[00:44:59] He must be carefully instructed given responsibility
[00:45:01] in the held accountable.
[00:45:03] I frequently find squad beaters,
[00:45:05] ignoring their team leaders by issuing orders,
[00:45:09] giving fire commands and taking other actions
[00:45:11] directly with the individual members of the squad.
[00:45:14] Even worse, I found responsible officers
[00:45:16] who were condoning these mistakes.
[00:45:19] The squad leaders should use his team leaders
[00:45:21] to exercise control over the squad at all times.
[00:45:25] Commanders should supervise a soul battle drill
[00:45:28] and squad exercise to ensure that squad leaders
[00:45:30] understand and apply the principle of exercising command
[00:45:34] over the rifle squad through designated team leaders.
[00:45:37] So don't throw the chain of command.
[00:45:38] Let your subordinate leaders lead.
[00:45:43] Self-sufficiency and confidence confidence
[00:45:45] to fight semi-independently under conditions
[00:45:48] of decentralized control is developed by training exercises.
[00:45:53] Current concepts of warfare,
[00:45:55] visualizing greater dispersion on the battlefield.
[00:45:57] So we're more spread out, dictate the necessity
[00:45:59] for units to acquire self-confidence and self-sufficiency.
[00:46:03] These aspects can be developed in most tactical exercises
[00:46:06] and can be furthered through realistic use
[00:46:08] of active aggressor forces.
[00:46:14] Force on force training.
[00:46:16] That's what we want to do.
[00:46:18] Ranger type operations also instill confidence
[00:46:21] and show the need for self-sufficiency.
[00:46:24] When out of physical contact with friendly forces
[00:46:28] or beyond the range of mutual fire support,
[00:46:31] so we're not covering and moving anymore,
[00:46:33] the isolated unit becomes a problem.
[00:46:37] And our training commander should recognize
[00:46:39] the plight of the isolated unit,
[00:46:41] not by simulating it,
[00:46:43] but by actually demonstrating it.
[00:46:45] When the small unit is confronted
[00:46:47] with an isolated mission, confidence can always be instilled
[00:46:50] by ensuring that procedures are established
[00:46:52] for maintaining communications and for rallying
[00:46:54] to its support if required.
[00:46:57] Training should be aimed at developing integrated procedures
[00:47:01] for the employment of Army aviation
[00:47:03] and Air Force troop carrier troop movements
[00:47:05] for resupply and medical evacuation.
[00:47:07] So we have to learn to work independently,
[00:47:11] but we always have to be able to support each other.
[00:47:15] We're alone out on the battlefield, we die.
[00:47:17] You mean there's a balance there?
[00:47:18] There's a balance.
[00:47:19] There is a little dichotomy, but cover move.
[00:47:23] There's another doctrinal term that I love
[00:47:25] is supporting distance.
[00:47:27] I'm not allowed to be further away from Dave.
[00:47:30] If I can't defend Dave's position or cover for Dave
[00:47:35] because he's out of the range of my weapon systems,
[00:47:37] he's too far away.
[00:47:40] That's a perfect example of the cross-training
[00:47:41] he's talking about.
[00:47:42] I could be an infantryman.
[00:47:43] Do I need to be an expert on indirect fires?
[00:47:47] No, I probably don't need to know how to field strip every little,
[00:47:50] but you don't need to know how far that thing can shoot.
[00:47:52] Because if I get too far away from that supporting element
[00:47:55] and I go, well, the reason I got too far away
[00:47:57] is I didn't know how mortars worked.
[00:48:00] Cool, the outcome is your team gets annihilated.
[00:48:02] So do I need to know every single thing
[00:48:04] that the mortarple student commander knows?
[00:48:06] No, you don't, but you gotta know a little bit.
[00:48:08] You gotta know how you and you interact together.
[00:48:10] And so even that idea of cross-training is,
[00:48:12] if you don't have a sort of a functional understanding
[00:48:14] inside your company, use the example
[00:48:15] before of the salespeople and the customer satisfaction people.
[00:48:20] If you're a sales lead,
[00:48:22] and the only metric you measure for success
[00:48:24] is how much you sell,
[00:48:25] and you don't realize that in the return department,
[00:48:28] that number is the same, you're losing.
[00:48:30] You're losing because there's a piece that you don't,
[00:48:32] do you have to know everything they know?
[00:48:34] You don't, and actually you don't have time
[00:48:35] to know everything you know,
[00:48:36] but you gotta know enough.
[00:48:38] You gotta have enough understanding
[00:48:39] what's going on there to measure the success
[00:48:41] of the entire organization to include your team,
[00:48:44] and that requires a little bit of cross-training.
[00:48:45] And that is a perfect example of how come you need to know
[00:48:49] something about everybody.
[00:48:54] Small unit tactical exercises.
[00:48:56] Tactical exercises should be,
[00:48:58] as well prepared as training tests.
[00:48:59] As often as possible,
[00:49:00] the tactical situation for a field exercise
[00:49:02] should be laid in the framework of an echelon,
[00:49:05] one or two levels higher than participating unit.
[00:49:07] This is desirable to bring into play
[00:49:09] the necessary intelligence supply
[00:49:11] of evacuation in similar roles of supporting forces
[00:49:14] that have a bearing on the specific tactical operation.
[00:49:17] Don't confuse the squad leader however,
[00:49:19] by giving him everything that was
[00:49:21] in the battalion and company commanders orders.
[00:49:24] That's an interesting little point to bring up
[00:49:28] is that, well, they're saying that you need to test
[00:49:32] the subordinate unit, so you know,
[00:49:33] subordinate leadership unit, you can't just,
[00:49:35] and this is true in the SEAL teams,
[00:49:37] I can't test myself.
[00:49:39] If I'm relying on me as the platoon leader to test my platoon,
[00:49:44] it's very difficult to do that.
[00:49:46] Look, and it can happen,
[00:49:47] and there's some great platoon leaders that'll be able
[00:49:49] to do that, but there's platoon leaders that will,
[00:49:52] they'll pass every test for some reason with flying colors,
[00:49:55] because they're not really being tested.
[00:49:57] So it's good when you are utilizing the chain of command
[00:50:01] and some of the elements above to test the elements below.
[00:50:06] So that makes sense, again, he always emphasizes
[00:50:10] all exercises to be conducted under simulated combat conditions.
[00:50:13] I think we've covered that one enough.
[00:50:18] Despite limitations on our capabilities
[00:50:20] to conduct field exercises and combined arms training,
[00:50:23] I'm convinced that commanders can always
[00:50:24] devise ways and means of achieving essential training
[00:50:27] objectives. Now I'll give you an example that.
[00:50:30] We would want to have close air support
[00:50:34] in our urban environment for training.
[00:50:36] We'd want to have an AC 130 overhead.
[00:50:39] We'd want to have F-18s overhead.
[00:50:41] We'd want to have a Marine Corps fighter squadron
[00:50:43] ready to combat drop bombs for us.
[00:50:47] That doesn't always happen.
[00:50:48] In fact, it's very rare that we would get those live assets.
[00:50:52] So what would we do?
[00:50:53] We would either bring a pilot,
[00:50:55] or we'd bring a J-TAC, a person that was qualified to call,
[00:50:58] and we'd put them up on one of the buildings
[00:50:59] in our Mount Facility and we'd give them a radio.
[00:51:02] And look, it's almost the same thing.
[00:51:04] You know, you got a guy that understands how pilots talk
[00:51:07] and he imitates a pilot talking on the radio.
[00:51:10] And then we would put up simulated explosions to go off
[00:51:13] when they dropped the bomb in the right spot.
[00:51:15] We would blow something up and they'd get that.
[00:51:19] They'd get that satisfaction.
[00:51:21] Ha ha ha ha.
[00:51:22] In fact, there was a company we were using
[00:51:23] that had little model airplanes.
[00:51:26] They were actually big model airplanes,
[00:51:27] but the model airplanes would fly over
[00:51:30] and then explosions would happen.
[00:51:32] We kind of went the distance to fake the training realistic.
[00:51:35] Launching these, you know, F-18s that would come down
[00:51:38] and strafe the city and explosions would go off,
[00:51:42] pretty good, but that's a great way to do it.
[00:51:43] And what does it cost for me to give the radio
[00:51:46] to one of my J-TACs and stay at an building?
[00:51:49] It costs $0.00.
[00:51:51] What does it cost to get an F-18
[00:51:54] to give me, or a section of F-18s
[00:51:57] to give me a few hours of support
[00:51:59] because what, $100,000?
[00:52:03] Yeah.
[00:52:05] How much, how much fuel do you burn in an F-18?
[00:52:09] In an hour, 10,000 pounds?
[00:52:11] Ha ha ha ha ha.
[00:52:12] Ha ha ha ha ha ha.
[00:52:14] Yes.
[00:52:15] Check.
[00:52:17] Check.
[00:52:18] Fffffffffffffff.
[00:52:19] Fffffffff.
[00:52:21] So there's always ways, figure ways out.
[00:52:24] Training exercise should be concluded with a critique
[00:52:27] to provide the basis for reviewing the action
[00:52:29] to indicate areas requiring additional training emphasis.
[00:52:32] Boom.
[00:52:33] Deep brief.
[00:52:34] Yes, we have to do that.
[00:52:37] The use of live ammunition is not authorized.
[00:52:39] When the use of live ammunition is not authorized
[00:52:43] or practical, or when it's used
[00:52:45] violate safety requirements, maximum utilization
[00:52:47] should be made of various simulators.
[00:52:49] Boom.
[00:52:50] Again, I basically couldn't rip that.
[00:52:52] You were a religious saint.
[00:52:53] Simulators can duplicate the sound of artillery
[00:52:55] machine gun smoke flash and most other effects
[00:52:58] associated with the noise and conditions of the battlefield,
[00:53:00] including just tires burning.
[00:53:04] Habitual use of aggressor in the field exercises
[00:53:09] is desirable to develop interest and realism.
[00:53:12] The training value to the unit functioning in an aggressor role
[00:53:16] should not be overlooked.
[00:53:18] The adherence to established tactical principles
[00:53:20] and techniques by the aggressor forces
[00:53:22] will aid the friendly force informing sound tackle
[00:53:25] hot habits.
[00:53:26] This is why we, in the sealed teams,
[00:53:29] picked up so much emphasis on force on force training
[00:53:33] using simunition or these high speed laser tag systems
[00:53:37] that we had.
[00:53:38] This is why.
[00:53:40] And that's basically all you guys did at Top Gun.
[00:53:43] It's 100% aggressor.
[00:53:46] And as an aggressor, what do you find at F-16?
[00:53:48] Yeah.
[00:53:52] How long does it take you to learn to fly at F-16?
[00:53:55] Not long.
[00:53:55] A couple months.
[00:53:56] If that part of it is not that hard.
[00:54:00] Are you worried when you go back to an F-18
[00:54:02] that you're going to have bad habits?
[00:54:04] There's something called negative transfer.
[00:54:06] So there's a couple of things that you got to pay attention to.
[00:54:09] You got to know that there are some differences
[00:54:11] that if you get those wrong, those can be really bad.
[00:54:13] But most of it transfers over pretty easily.
[00:54:16] The larger issue, like you were talking about.
[00:54:18] And my first real job at Top Gun was what's called
[00:54:22] the adversary officer.
[00:54:23] So my responsibility was to make sure
[00:54:25] that all the training scenarios that we developed
[00:54:27] at Top Gun on that same day.
[00:54:29] That's the good name to give some of the people
[00:54:30] that we work with.
[00:54:31] You're working with a company and you're like,
[00:54:34] oh, you know what?
[00:54:35] Maybe we'll just call you the adversarial officer.
[00:54:37] The adversarial officer.
[00:54:38] There's certainly people that we work with.
[00:54:40] We're thinking, man, go, you're working with a company.
[00:54:44] You think, hey, when I bring you into where I bring up
[00:54:48] your name, all I hear is like, bad things.
[00:54:51] This is not a good idea.
[00:54:53] What are you doing?
[00:54:54] What's going on over here?
[00:54:55] Are you the adversarial officer here?
[00:54:57] So sorry, cut you off.
[00:54:59] No, no, I just say, you know, we were talking about
[00:55:01] the challenge of that is the adversarial officer.
[00:55:03] Adversary officers job is to make sure
[00:55:06] that the training scenarios that we built
[00:55:08] on the adversary side.
[00:55:09] So the opposing force was realistic and reflected
[00:55:13] the capability of the enemy.
[00:55:14] So we provided real training for the blue students,
[00:55:18] for the friendly fighters going out to fight,
[00:55:20] because if they went out and fought an enemy
[00:55:22] that wasn't performing the way a real enemy would,
[00:55:24] they were going to be unprepared.
[00:55:26] We had an entire, you know, sell inside of Top Gun,
[00:55:29] designed just to learn and study enemy tactics
[00:55:33] to make our training more realistic.
[00:55:35] How, what is you have, did you have to fly the F-16
[00:55:37] a certain way to simulate?
[00:55:40] Normally, when we replicated a force on force.
[00:55:43] So there is something incremental training.
[00:55:45] So at the beginning of some phases of flight training,
[00:55:47] we limit the capability of the enemy aircraft
[00:55:50] to build, get some building blocks and fundamentals.
[00:55:53] But once we get to force on force training
[00:55:55] and most of Top Gun is straight up,
[00:55:56] just your best game, my best game as the adversary,
[00:56:00] I'm flying the F-16 to the Max performance capability.
[00:56:03] And how did the Max performance of the F-16
[00:56:07] compare to the Max performance of the SU-27
[00:56:10] or whichever close aircraft?
[00:56:12] So it's not exactly, but close.
[00:56:14] And better than a similar aircraft, F-18 against F-18,
[00:56:18] me trying to replicate a different airplane,
[00:56:21] like at the end of their machines.
[00:56:23] Now, a different machine, even if it doesn't fully replicate
[00:56:26] the enemy, it does things differently.
[00:56:28] And that alone is a really powerful tool
[00:56:30] to practice against, because it shows you things,
[00:56:33] oh, I can't do that on my machine.
[00:56:35] My machine won't do that this airplane can
[00:56:37] and have to have a tactic to respond to that.
[00:56:40] And my mistaken in that the early 90s
[00:56:42] when I went up to Fallen and I would go through
[00:56:45] some air wing training, would it be mistaken
[00:56:47] to think that they were aircraft up there besides the F-16
[00:56:50] that were acting as adversaries?
[00:56:51] No, I think you'd be correct.
[00:56:53] Did you have any other aircraft besides the F-16?
[00:56:57] What would you guys find?
[00:56:58] But what other adversary aircraft were available
[00:57:01] to your opposing force?
[00:57:03] Yeah, the ones that the Navy furnished,
[00:57:05] the most common ones for the Navy were the F-5
[00:57:08] and the F-16.
[00:57:09] But we also had contract air, so we had,
[00:57:12] you know, for F-5 freedom fighter?
[00:57:14] I, yes, you've got, absolutely,
[00:57:18] there was a squadron of F-5s in,
[00:57:22] as adversaries in Fallen,
[00:57:25] painted like enemy aircraft designed
[00:57:27] just to replicate an enemy threat.
[00:57:29] I remember those.
[00:57:30] Dude, absolutely.
[00:57:31] And did they have red stars on them?
[00:57:32] They totally did.
[00:57:33] I don't remember that.
[00:57:34] Absolutely.
[00:57:35] I actually, they might, they probably still have them.
[00:57:38] And we would outsource to, you know,
[00:57:40] we get the Air Force to come bring up some F-15s
[00:57:43] that to fly with us for a class.
[00:57:45] We get, you know, a contract company to fly,
[00:57:48] you know, French morageers and Israeli-Coffeeers,
[00:57:50] just whatever was out there to give you,
[00:57:53] the student, what we call a dissimilar look.
[00:57:57] F-18s against F-18s is not a great way
[00:57:59] to replicate real training.
[00:58:00] So you wanna give something that's different.
[00:58:02] Sometimes it's better, sometimes it's worse,
[00:58:04] but the fact that it's different
[00:58:06] creates much more realistic training.
[00:58:09] Well, why is it when I read about,
[00:58:12] like old school fighter and like test pilots?
[00:58:16] Like reading when we had Dan Patterson on,
[00:58:19] they're just getting in different aircraft.
[00:58:20] They're just flying out to Area 51,
[00:58:23] and just getting in random A-S and aircraft
[00:58:26] and just flying those things.
[00:58:28] Is that because those old school aircraft
[00:58:31] were more similar in terms of the way you fly them?
[00:58:34] No, man, I just think that those guys
[00:58:36] weren't afraid of anything.
[00:58:37] I'm like, I can fly that thing.
[00:58:38] I'm like, whatever.
[00:58:40] No, I think it was, you know,
[00:58:43] one of the coolest things that Dan Patterson talked about
[00:58:47] here on the podcast and just in general was the idea
[00:58:50] that hey, we need to go figure out how this stuff works.
[00:58:54] We need to get in these machines
[00:58:56] and figure out how they work.
[00:58:57] And if we don't, we're gonna go across to Vietnam
[00:59:01] and we're gonna lose,
[00:59:02] because we don't know how those machines work.
[00:59:04] And regulations and restrictions and safety.
[00:59:06] And all these things were forces,
[00:59:08] were counterweights to doing that.
[00:59:09] All the reasons not to doing.
[00:59:11] Was there a risk?
[00:59:12] Yeah, there's a ton of risk.
[00:59:13] That risk did not wait,
[00:59:15] did not wait going to Vietnam and losing.
[00:59:16] And they believed that.
[00:59:17] And they pushed hard against the institution
[00:59:20] to be able to do that.
[00:59:22] Yeah, and you know, the last podcast,
[00:59:24] we were talking about,
[00:59:26] I was talking about the 80s and the 90s.
[00:59:28] And look, when you're in,
[00:59:32] when it's the 80s and the 90s,
[00:59:33] and you've been tasked to do the best you can
[00:59:35] to maintain the spirit of going to war.
[00:59:39] But think of how hard the pushback is against pushing
[00:59:42] the envelope and training.
[00:59:43] When you're saying, listen,
[00:59:45] when you've got, we better push the envelope.
[00:59:47] Otherwise we're gonna go get killed in Vietnam.
[00:59:49] Yep.
[00:59:50] If it's 1994, it's like we better push the envelope.
[00:59:56] Otherwise, then they come back and you say,
[01:00:00] just hey, don't we push the envelope?
[01:00:01] Yeah.
[01:00:02] And it makes, you know, you're like,
[01:00:04] you know, go on it.
[01:00:05] Dude, that was a tough time.
[01:00:06] And if you look at kind of, are, are what we call
[01:00:10] the baseline adversary,
[01:00:11] if you think about countries that would be our adversaries
[01:00:13] now, China, Russia.
[01:00:15] Those countries were not a threat in 1994.
[01:00:18] They're really, the institution had a really hard time
[01:00:21] being convinced that we needed to train hard.
[01:00:25] It was really, it was a much harder cell.
[01:00:27] Now it's a very different environment.
[01:00:28] And you know, selling the training,
[01:00:31] the demonstrating why we need to do this is actually easier.
[01:00:34] Because back then, it was hard to make a compelling case
[01:00:38] why we needed to push the envelope for what?
[01:00:41] And when you guys would look at doing a mission back then,
[01:00:44] what were you thinking the big mission would be?
[01:00:48] The big mission in 1996, when you were thinking,
[01:00:52] all right, there may be a big mission
[01:00:55] that I need to be ready for.
[01:00:56] I mean, I guess we could look at the,
[01:00:58] the Boclins this time.
[01:00:59] Yeah, so the things in near memory were desert storm
[01:01:05] and multiple, you know, the coast of a former Yugoslavia,
[01:01:11] those there was enough of those in there.
[01:01:14] And there was always this, believe it or not,
[01:01:16] it held over there was always this specter of like,
[01:01:20] you know, great competition, you know, Russia and America,
[01:01:24] those type of things.
[01:01:25] So those are always there.
[01:01:26] And there was enough hold over from the kind of the Cold War
[01:01:31] era of leadership, which is the 80s
[01:01:32] and you know, very early 90s was,
[01:01:35] hey, this stuff all travels in sign waves
[01:01:37] and sooner or later, what's going to happen
[01:01:40] is that there are ability, which is obviously we know that.
[01:01:43] And so that specter of that was always there
[01:01:46] and the proliferation of their stuff all throughout Europe
[01:01:48] and, you know, great great work competition type stuff
[01:01:51] was always part of what we did.
[01:01:53] That makes sense and I guess it probably makes sense to think
[01:01:59] that what it was leaning towards in the teams
[01:02:03] back in those days and probably in, you know,
[01:02:06] in the greater ground troops, the ground forces
[01:02:10] was that these, this idea of like going into a sustained
[01:02:13] ground combat was really,
[01:02:16] that route was really, it seemed like a less likely thing
[01:02:19] all the time, less and less likely
[01:02:21] that we were gonna actually, hey, we're gonna,
[01:02:22] if you would have told me in 1995,
[01:02:26] hey, the US year, the frog men of the 2000s
[01:02:33] and the 2010s are gonna do deployment after deployment,
[01:02:37] after deployment after deployment, after deployment,
[01:02:39] to the desert and they're gonna be fighting
[01:02:42] in ground combat sustained for two decades.
[01:02:47] It would have been very, it would have been hard to predict.
[01:02:50] Yeah, but we trained, we trained and then we kept training.
[01:02:59] Next little section, testing a unit's proficiency,
[01:03:02] the chief objective of readiness training is to ensure
[01:03:04] that all units are maintained at a high rate
[01:03:06] of operational readiness throughout the year.
[01:03:08] That is that every unit is prepared to carry out
[01:03:11] its combat mission at any time.
[01:03:13] Operational readiness testing to determine
[01:03:15] your unit's operational,
[01:03:16] Teddy, operational readiness, you must provide testing.
[01:03:20] Any kind of talks about what to cover
[01:03:23] is a minimum amount.
[01:03:25] He talks about, you gotta, you know,
[01:03:27] these various abilities, the ability to rendezvous,
[01:03:29] the ability to shoot movement,
[01:03:30] come here, hey, all good.
[01:03:32] And he talks about, for best results,
[01:03:35] readiness test should be unannounced,
[01:03:37] which I totally agree with.
[01:03:40] These test should be practical demonstrations
[01:03:42] of how successfully a unit can be expected
[01:03:44] to execute all or any part of its emergency mission,
[01:03:48] totally get now.
[01:03:50] Here's where, here's where testing can concern me.
[01:03:57] When we do a test, we kind of have to give,
[01:04:01] hey, here's the task condition in standard, right?
[01:04:03] Here's what you're gonna be told to do,
[01:04:04] here's the standard, and here's what you need to do it, right?
[01:04:08] Or sorry, here's the task, right?
[01:04:10] This is what you have to do, here's the conditions
[01:04:11] of that task, and here's the standard that you have to meet.
[01:04:15] I was working with a government agency,
[01:04:20] and one of the tasks of this government agency
[01:04:24] was they had to be able to interdict vessels, small vessels.
[01:04:29] And so in order to interdict these vessels,
[01:04:32] they may have to disable the motor of that vessel.
[01:04:38] And so they had to be able to shoot a weapon
[01:04:42] from a moving vessel that they're in,
[01:04:45] add another moving vessel to disable an engine.
[01:04:49] Okay, got it.
[01:04:50] So over time that became a qualification
[01:04:53] that you had to get, and over time it became a test
[01:04:56] that you had to be able to successfully complete this test,
[01:05:00] in order to maintain this qualification to do it.
[01:05:02] And here's the thing.
[01:05:05] One of the guys that had this standard
[01:05:08] was telling me about the test,
[01:05:09] and he was complaining about the test.
[01:05:11] And what had happened was this test,
[01:05:13] the task condition in standards,
[01:05:16] were so controlled that there was no realism to it whatsoever.
[01:05:21] And it was okay, the target vessel will have
[01:05:26] a target on that vessel that is whatever,
[01:05:29] three feet by three feet,
[01:05:31] the vessel will be moving in XC state,
[01:05:35] which was no waves,
[01:05:36] they basically would do only do it
[01:05:38] if there was no waves happening whatsoever.
[01:05:40] And it will be moving at five knots,
[01:05:43] and the assault vessel will also be moving at five knots.
[01:05:47] The distance will be 14 feet,
[01:05:50] and it was just this whole thing.
[01:05:51] And so basically, it took zero skill to do it.
[01:05:54] It took zero skill,
[01:05:55] it was basically a 20 foot shot at a nice big target,
[01:06:00] and it didn't prove anything.
[01:06:02] With the reality of shooting an engine,
[01:06:04] to get an engine to go down on an outboard motor,
[01:06:06] it's a pretty tough thing, it's C state at night.
[01:06:08] There's a lot of things going on.
[01:06:09] And by the way, what weapons do you have?
[01:06:12] Because if you have, if you've got a laser on your weapon
[01:06:16] and it's at night, you've got night vision on,
[01:06:17] and you can train your laser on that
[01:06:19] and you're at a C state and you can keep it steady,
[01:06:20] you can fire a few rounds, cool.
[01:06:23] I worry about testing sometimes,
[01:06:26] because when you put tasks, conditions and standards,
[01:06:29] so that you can provide a test,
[01:06:30] oftentimes those restrict the environment
[01:06:34] and they make it canned.
[01:06:36] And when things become canned, you're not testing
[01:06:41] on what you want to test on.
[01:06:43] So I would always, you know,
[01:06:44] sort of have testing things, then I'd have the real test.
[01:06:48] You know, which is gonna be me, I'm,
[01:06:51] it's gonna be me, I'm, and that's what we wanna see.
[01:06:53] How do you handle the me, I'm?
[01:06:55] When you have night vision on and a laser,
[01:07:00] if you don't have night vision on, can you still see that laser?
[01:07:03] There's lasers that you can see,
[01:07:05] and there's lasers that you cannot see.
[01:07:07] So you could have a laser without night vision,
[01:07:10] that's a red laser, it's like what you see in the movies.
[01:07:12] Are you familiar with movies?
[01:07:14] Oh yeah, come on later, one.
[01:07:15] So you get laser where you, where you can see the little red dot?
[01:07:19] Yes sir.
[01:07:20] That's a visible laser.
[01:07:21] There's also IR lasers in for red lasers
[01:07:23] that you can't see without night vision on,
[01:07:25] but with night vision on, it's, it's actually insanely bright
[01:07:29] and clear.
[01:07:30] And then they have something that's an IR flood,
[01:07:33] which so you can actually are lighting up the entire target area
[01:07:36] with, so it's illuminated,
[01:07:38] and then there's a laser right in the center of it.
[01:07:41] And then you can see that without goggles.
[01:07:43] Nope, you need goggles.
[01:07:45] The equivalent to that would be just a regular flashlight,
[01:07:47] which we also have where you press a button
[01:07:49] and a flashlight comes on, and in the center
[01:07:51] of that flashlight there's a red laser.
[01:07:53] Gotcha.
[01:07:54] Okay, so I'll do it.
[01:07:55] Okay, you have all of that in your life.
[01:07:56] You have all that, you have all that on your weapon all the time.
[01:07:59] Oh dang, okay.
[01:08:00] So the whole deal.
[01:08:01] That's why when you see guys weapons now,
[01:08:03] it gets too hot, it's too hot.
[01:08:05] There's a lot of stuff going on on weapons.
[01:08:07] I did get better, you know,
[01:08:08] because all these little pieces are getting smaller
[01:08:10] and they're consolidating some of these pieces,
[01:08:12] so it's one piece instead of three different pieces.
[01:08:15] You know, now you can get like a grip
[01:08:18] that has a white light and a red laser in it.
[01:08:22] And the batteries.
[01:08:23] There was a time where you had the battery thing
[01:08:25] and then you had the laser thing
[01:08:26] and then you had a battery for the flashlight thing
[01:08:28] and you're gonna wires going all over the place.
[01:08:30] There's a total of gut check.
[01:08:31] Now it is, people are making stuff more square away.
[01:08:34] What about that one?
[01:08:36] You know, the ones that,
[01:08:38] like you could see the laser through the little lens
[01:08:41] almost kind of thing, you know?
[01:08:42] So that's like, or you can see the dots.
[01:08:43] You could see the dots.
[01:08:44] Yep, yep.
[01:08:45] That's just another type of system.
[01:08:47] And the enemy is not gonna be able to see that.
[01:08:50] But you guys don't have those.
[01:08:51] No, we have those too.
[01:08:52] On the deal.
[01:08:53] Okay.
[01:08:54] And the team's got everything.
[01:08:55] It's pretty awesome.
[01:08:55] Actually, what guys are doing now,
[01:08:57] that's really cool,
[01:08:58] because it's sort of getting next level,
[01:09:01] the way that the technology is just really getting
[01:09:06] so much better right now.
[01:09:07] High speed.
[01:09:08] Yeah, it's getting way more high speed
[01:09:09] and the guys systems are much better than they were,
[01:09:12] you know?
[01:09:13] I mean, the changes that took place
[01:09:18] from Vietnam to 1995 is tiny.
[01:09:25] Compared to the changes that took place last year.
[01:09:28] You know, this is exponentially better
[01:09:30] weapon systems.
[01:09:31] And not so much the weapon system,
[01:09:33] but the accoutrements that you put on the weapon systems
[01:09:37] are way better.
[01:09:39] I mean, I get kind of crazy when I'm watching
[01:09:42] like some of the new technologies coming out of the awesome,
[01:09:44] awesome to see.
[01:09:48] Next little section is, and by the way,
[01:09:51] just I skipped the, you were wondering, Dave,
[01:09:54] I told you I was gonna skip some stuff.
[01:09:56] The stuff that I skipped really goes into like,
[01:09:58] the details of each and every type of unit
[01:10:04] that you can be working with.
[01:10:05] And it goes into some very granular detail,
[01:10:08] good for a military leader,
[01:10:11] but a little bit too granular
[01:10:13] for general public consumption.
[01:10:15] And I haven't actually started the execution
[01:10:18] of publishing this thing on my own.
[01:10:20] I'm obviously gonna need to.
[01:10:21] This needs to be a jockel publishing book.
[01:10:24] So I gotta, I guess I gotta figure out the legality that.
[01:10:30] I think the legality is none.
[01:10:32] I think it's more than 50 years old,
[01:10:34] which means it's public domain.
[01:10:36] So I'll write a little forward to it.
[01:10:39] And we'll go from there.
[01:10:41] Go Dave.
[01:10:42] Yeah, I was writing a note that maybe I'll write the forward.
[01:10:45] The cool thing about the theme of this
[01:10:48] is that you've traced this back to the influence on you
[01:10:53] and the influence of the influencer on you.
[01:10:56] Well, there's now another layer here.
[01:10:58] Oh, one more layer deep of where we are all pulling this from,
[01:11:03] which is you recounting where you pulled it from.
[01:11:05] And now you're actually connected to where
[01:11:07] hack pulled it from.
[01:11:08] So, check.
[01:11:10] All right, sounds like the next jockel publishing book
[01:11:13] has been delineated.
[01:11:16] You know what's interesting?
[01:11:17] So the name of this and I brought this up already,
[01:11:19] but it's a stack poll publications.
[01:11:22] And by the way, stack poll publications, you're welcome,
[01:11:25] because I know I've read books from you that you publish.
[01:11:28] One of them I know is another clay pledge in St.
[01:11:31] Low, which we've covered a long time ago,
[01:11:32] to Glover John's which, by the way, is another connection
[01:11:35] back to Hackworth.
[01:11:37] And I talked about it.
[01:11:38] I'm pretty sure some copies of this clay
[01:11:42] pages in St. Low's sold.
[01:11:43] I wrote stack poll books in email.
[01:11:46] And said, hey, I'm here.
[01:11:47] Here's a book.
[01:11:48] I'm trying to find.
[01:11:49] I haven't been able to find it.
[01:11:52] I love to do something right-of-forward,
[01:11:56] you know, republish this thing, whatever.
[01:11:59] Never heard back from them, unfortunately.
[01:12:01] You know, I probably, I don't think I was persistent enough.
[01:12:04] I probably said I'm one, maybe two emails.
[01:12:06] So I probably should have done a better job
[01:12:08] and explain to them maybe better where I was coming from.
[01:12:12] Didn't do a good enough job, but hopefully,
[01:12:15] we'll do something with it.
[01:12:17] So back to this training for contingency operations.
[01:12:22] In addition to being prepared to execute combat missions
[01:12:25] as part of a combined force, units overseas
[01:12:27] must be trained and ready to perform a wide variety
[01:12:29] of contingency operations.
[01:12:30] It is not possible to identify all contingencies
[01:12:33] which may face Army unit stations overseas.
[01:12:36] Generally, a unit that is well trained
[01:12:37] for its basic combat mission will be capable
[01:12:41] of supporting contingency operations.
[01:12:43] Commanders must be aware, however,
[01:12:45] that their troops may be employed in areas
[01:12:47] where the weather and terrain differ greatly
[01:12:49] from that found in areas in which their station.
[01:12:52] Combat ready elements should be air transportable
[01:12:55] for movement on short, notice to potential trouble areas.
[01:12:57] They should be trained to quail civil disturbances,
[01:12:59] control riots, guard or recover critical installations,
[01:13:03] bolster civil authorities and police provide emergency relief
[01:13:08] from natural disasters and handle numerous other related tasks.
[01:13:13] And imagine Commander can visualize
[01:13:15] appropriate and feasible contingency missions for as unit
[01:13:18] and present it with appropriate training situations.
[01:13:20] Now, here's something that I'll throw in there.
[01:13:23] It says such training will provide variety
[01:13:26] but must be based on logical conditions.
[01:13:27] It'd be realistic.
[01:13:28] The thing that I'll throw in there is,
[01:13:31] since you don't know what these contingencies are,
[01:13:34] you have to train people on what to do
[01:13:36] and they don't know what to do.
[01:13:39] How do you assess a situation?
[01:13:41] How do you look at it?
[01:13:42] How do you look at it with an open mind?
[01:13:44] And that's one of the real benefits of I had
[01:13:48] of growing up in the seal teams is we've lacked doctrine.
[01:13:51] We have more now, man, when I grew,
[01:13:53] when I was got in the teams, there was no,
[01:13:55] there's almost no, there's all word amount.
[01:13:58] And so when you got told, hey, you're going to do this type
[01:14:01] of mission, you just got told word amount of how you're going
[01:14:04] to do it.
[01:14:04] And if it was a type of mission that no one had ever done
[01:14:06] before, we were going to sit there and make up how to do it.
[01:14:08] There was no book to refer to.
[01:14:10] We didn't, and we didn't have, I'll tell you what, we didn't have
[01:14:14] in 1995.
[01:14:18] No one ever said to me, hey, we're doing an assault.
[01:14:22] Here's the army manual of what they do.
[01:14:25] No one ever said that.
[01:14:26] I never saw an army manual in the teams in the 90s.
[01:14:33] It was all word amount.
[01:14:37] So you had to, you have to put people in situations
[01:14:40] where you go, hey, hey, they's a random mission figure out
[01:14:42] how you're going to do this.
[01:14:44] Figure out how you're going to do this.
[01:14:45] And then you see what they do.
[01:14:48] And there are protocols for what to do when you don't know
[01:14:50] what to do.
[01:14:55] Then it gets into this section right here, which is,
[01:14:59] I was like, oh, maybe I'll skip this.
[01:15:00] And then I read like four lines.
[01:15:01] I'm like, all right, this is freaking awesome.
[01:15:03] So guidelines for planning, brigade, and battalion attacks.
[01:15:12] Training, regardless of size of unit has but one purpose.
[01:15:18] That is to teach effectively the techniques of combat.
[01:15:22] The attack is the key to success.
[01:15:26] The defense is merely a temporary expedient
[01:15:29] to conserve forces for an attack elsewhere
[01:15:33] or to prepare for an attack at a future date.
[01:15:36] So the only reason you're going on defense
[01:15:38] is so that you can go back on the attack.
[01:15:40] That's the only reason you're going,
[01:15:42] everything is to attack.
[01:15:43] That's all you're doing.
[01:15:44] You're going to attack.
[01:15:45] Oh, we got to hesitate, cool.
[01:15:46] Where has dating so that we can attack later?
[01:15:49] That's what we're doing.
[01:15:50] We're going to attack.
[01:15:52] The consequences of having an attack
[01:15:54] grind to a halt are great.
[01:15:56] The effort required for it to bounce back is tremendous.
[01:15:59] Once an attack is launched,
[01:16:00] its momentum must be maintained until the objective
[01:16:03] or objectives are seized and secured.
[01:16:05] Battle losses received due to poor planning
[01:16:07] and faulty execution are inexcusable
[01:16:10] and will result in a loss of respect for and confidence
[01:16:13] in the commander.
[01:16:16] The best reputation a commander can have
[01:16:18] is that he accomplishes his missions with few losses.
[01:16:26] The end sought in planning and executing
[01:16:29] an attack is brought about by deliberate planning
[01:16:32] and violent execution.
[01:16:34] The opposite is fatal.
[01:16:38] Speed and planning is often needed,
[01:16:40] but haste should be avoided.
[01:16:44] Remember that in combat, there is no second opportunity
[01:16:46] and seldom opportunity for rehearsals.
[01:16:49] This deliberate planning is accomplished in five phases.
[01:16:53] Phase one, basic factors, principal factors,
[01:16:56] which must be considered by a commander
[01:16:58] in deliberate planning are mission.
[01:17:00] Enemy situation troops available, terrain and weather.
[01:17:04] This is something we all learn basic,
[01:17:06] mission enemy troops available, terrain and weather.
[01:17:08] Phase two, tentative plan of attack.
[01:17:12] How much time do I support it and I have
[01:17:14] for reconnaissance planning and the issuance of order?
[01:17:17] What general scheme and maneuver do I want to employ?
[01:17:19] What formations are feasible?
[01:17:20] What does the mobility of my command?
[01:17:22] How much dispersing can I achieve
[01:17:24] and still accomplish my mission with speed and violence?
[01:17:27] What supporting nuclear fires are planned for
[01:17:30] or are available to me and for adjacent units?
[01:17:35] We're not got to that.
[01:17:36] I'm thinking, wow.
[01:17:39] Wow.
[01:17:40] This is, I think this book is 1962, 1963.
[01:17:44] This is like it's on cold war.
[01:17:47] And we're thinking if I,
[01:17:49] if I'm gonna do an attack, you know what?
[01:17:50] We may bring in some tactical nukes.
[01:17:53] That's where we're at. So these guys are planning
[01:17:59] and thinking and thinking through using
[01:18:02] nuclear weapons on the battlefield.
[01:18:07] How can I employ my conventional fire support?
[01:18:09] That's a secondary thought by the way,
[01:18:11] my primary is going nuke.
[01:18:12] What logistical problems problems do I have?
[01:18:14] Can I support the operation logistically?
[01:18:16] What is the status of personnel and equipment?
[01:18:18] How can I best use my supporting elements to include armor?
[01:18:21] Per armor personnel carriers and helicopters?
[01:18:23] Our communication facilities at adequate.
[01:18:26] Can I communicate with my supporting units?
[01:18:27] Do their radio is net with mine?
[01:18:29] What flank security problems do I have?
[01:18:31] How can I best control the attack?
[01:18:33] From where?
[01:18:34] What control measures?
[01:18:36] What must I be ready to do next when I have seized
[01:18:38] and secured the objective?
[01:18:42] So that's that right there.
[01:18:43] That was the tentative plan of attack.
[01:18:47] And then it goes detail plan of attack,
[01:18:49] having analyzed these factors and having developed
[01:18:51] a tentative plan based on this analysis,
[01:18:53] the commanders ready to get down to details.
[01:18:55] These things must then be considered.
[01:18:57] What is the formation that we will be initially used?
[01:19:00] Mounted dismounted or by helicopter?
[01:19:02] What units will be in the initial attack?
[01:19:04] What units are being supporting or in reserve?
[01:19:08] What will constitute my base of fire?
[01:19:09] Because it's all covered move.
[01:19:11] We're going to have a base of fire,
[01:19:12] we're going to have an element maneuvering.
[01:19:15] We'll forward assembly areas or attack positions
[01:19:19] be used for my attacking troops.
[01:19:21] If so, where?
[01:19:22] When will my components of my fire support start?
[01:19:26] When will we ship fire and stop?
[01:19:27] How will I range for this to happen?
[01:19:29] How can I exploit the effects of my supporting nuclear fires?
[01:19:34] Oh, it's so crazy to think about.
[01:19:37] Yeah.
[01:19:42] From what position will each of my attacking elements
[01:19:45] start their attacking by fire and maneuver?
[01:19:49] Cover and move.
[01:19:52] This is the true line of departure
[01:19:54] and should be considered as such.
[01:19:55] That's an LD.
[01:19:58] There may be other courting lines or points in there.
[01:20:01] How and from what distance will I start a coordinated assault?
[01:20:04] What command signal and contingent will I use to start it?
[01:20:07] What reports will I expect from my subordinate units?
[01:20:10] What reports will I give to my superiors?
[01:20:12] With whom should I establish liaison?
[01:20:14] How when and where should I issue my attack order?
[01:20:18] What arrangements should I make for this?
[01:20:21] And then it gets into the war gaming.
[01:20:23] So the reason I'm going through this is like,
[01:20:24] think of the level of detail.
[01:20:25] Think of the, you know, I got that section of discipline
[01:20:28] equals freedom field man.
[01:20:28] Or I was like, question everything.
[01:20:30] This is it, man.
[01:20:31] What are we doing?
[01:20:33] How are we doing it?
[01:20:34] Having a checklist like this to think about
[01:20:36] before you conduct an operation?
[01:20:38] I don't care if you're at a business.
[01:20:39] I don't care if you're going to grocery store.
[01:20:41] Thinking about what you're going to be facing.
[01:20:44] This is a smart way to operate.
[01:20:50] Phase four, war gaming the plan.
[01:20:55] The commander now having come to a pretty firm idea
[01:20:57] of what he wants to do and how he wants to do it.
[01:20:59] Now war games it in his mind
[01:21:01] and ask himself the following questions.
[01:21:04] This is when you're trying to punch holes in your own plan
[01:21:07] to the maximum extent possible.
[01:21:08] Have I based my plan on knowledge,
[01:21:10] gain through active ground, map,
[01:21:13] and aerial reconnaissance and knowledge of the enemy situation?
[01:21:18] Have I analyzed the enemy defense thoroughly
[01:21:20] thereby locating and taking advantage of weaknesses
[01:21:23] in enemy disposition or terrain
[01:21:25] where the defender cannot use his weapons
[01:21:27] or obstacles to advantage?
[01:21:29] Have I given adequate consideration to terrain
[01:21:32] and whether one affects the have on the accomplishment
[01:21:34] of my mission?
[01:21:34] Have I planned for maximum exploitation
[01:21:37] of available nuclear fires?
[01:21:39] Have I considered troop safety in the planning
[01:21:42] of my nuclear fires and scheme of maneuver?
[01:21:45] Have I considered the use of armored personnel carriers?
[01:21:47] Have I considered the effects of nuclear weapons
[01:21:50] upon the terrain over which I am attacking?
[01:21:52] Blowdown contaminated areas, secondary fires.
[01:21:58] I didn't know what blowdown was.
[01:22:00] I had to look it up, guess where I went.
[01:22:01] I went to FM 100, attack 30 nuclear operations.
[01:22:06] What is it?
[01:22:07] Blowdown is when trees get blown down
[01:22:11] and they're splintered and they create just obstacles
[01:22:15] everywhere, they're very hard to move through.
[01:22:17] So you got to account for that in your assault.
[01:22:19] Got to account for the blowdown of the nuclear weapons
[01:22:22] you used to prep the area for assault?
[01:22:28] Man.
[01:22:30] Have I provided for full shock effect on the enemy?
[01:22:33] This comes from surprise tanks and strengths,
[01:22:35] attacks from several directions,
[01:22:37] simultaneously intensity of supporting fires
[01:22:39] during the assault and the speed of the assault
[01:22:41] by use of armored personnel carriers and helicopters.
[01:22:44] Does my plan provide for the waiting of the main effort?
[01:22:47] Have I used attacking units as a base of fire
[01:22:50] when I have artillery heavy weapons and mortars for this purpose?
[01:22:54] Isn't it crazy that everything is covered move?
[01:22:56] Everything is covered move.
[01:22:59] The use of tanks for this purpose is especially
[01:23:01] faulty if the tanks could be used in the attack role
[01:23:03] to close with the enemy and overrun them.
[01:23:06] Has the excessive use of attack troops as a base of fire
[01:23:11] as reserves or as reconnaissance and security elements
[01:23:14] cause me to have two little strength in the attack?
[01:23:18] Have I selected unnecessary intermediate objectives?
[01:23:23] Which, I don't want to go back to number 10.
[01:23:26] Here.
[01:23:28] Have I used too much of the attack troops in the base of fire?
[01:23:33] So when you have, would be doing assaults,
[01:23:35] like let's say it's a basic seal platoon in the 90s.
[01:23:41] And we'd be doing an assault.
[01:23:43] And so you have a base of fire and then you have an assault element.
[01:23:46] And you could say, okay, squad one,
[01:23:50] you're going to be the base element squad two.
[01:23:51] You're going to be the assault element.
[01:23:54] So squad one, you're going to lay down this base of fire.
[01:23:57] And while you're laying down that base of fire,
[01:23:59] in comes the maneuver element, the assault element
[01:24:01] is going to move into position.
[01:24:03] And then they're going to start going through the target
[01:24:05] and then the base of fire is going to shift off the target.
[01:24:08] But they've suppressed the enemy fire
[01:24:09] and now you can go through pretty clean.
[01:24:11] So there's a tendency to think, well,
[01:24:13] you don't have to have this base of fire.
[01:24:14] Why don't I take my machine gunners from squad two
[01:24:19] and put them in the base element.
[01:24:21] So then they have massive fire power.
[01:24:23] And plus that means the assault element's a little bit lighter.
[01:24:25] They can move a little bit quicker.
[01:24:27] And we're good.
[01:24:29] And I remember sitting in a platoon brief
[01:24:31] and we were going to do that.
[01:24:33] And wasn't my plan. I was like a new guy.
[01:24:35] Literally a new guy.
[01:24:36] I was just sitting there going,
[01:24:38] okay, tell me what to do.
[01:24:40] And the plan got briefed.
[01:24:42] Hey, okay, this is how we're going to task organized
[01:24:45] for this assault.
[01:24:46] We're going to put all the machine gunners.
[01:24:48] So four machine gunners in the base element.
[01:24:51] And so we're going to have this massive fire power.
[01:24:53] And then these other guys, the point man from the squad one
[01:24:57] and the rear security from squad one
[01:24:59] and whatever one of the corpsmen from squad
[01:25:00] they're going to go down and they're going to go through the assault element.
[01:25:03] And so then the old master chief says,
[01:25:07] well, what if what if the assault element gets compromised?
[01:25:11] They got no machine guns.
[01:25:13] What if the base element wants the assault element gets compromised
[01:25:18] and starts to engage the target?
[01:25:20] What happens if now they have to go on the assault?
[01:25:23] And now the base of fire is weak from the former assault element.
[01:25:27] So what did that tell me?
[01:25:29] I remember sitting there thinking, okay, you got to be.
[01:25:31] That's a contingency.
[01:25:33] And what you're really doing is you're you're you're you're
[01:25:36] you're giving away so much tactical advantage because not only that,
[01:25:40] a seal puttune squad is meant to work a certain way.
[01:25:44] There's a reason it's designed that way.
[01:25:46] And all of a sudden you mix it all up.
[01:25:47] And now you're now with not really a seal squad anymore.
[01:25:49] They're no freaking machine gunners in it.
[01:25:52] What's a seal freaking squad without machine gunners?
[01:25:56] But you've taken those machine gunners away.
[01:25:59] And then you've overly burdened the other one with too many machine gunners.
[01:26:04] So that idea of hey, I'm going to make these adjustments for this particular situation.
[01:26:13] And if everything goes perfect, it's good.
[01:26:17] But if anything changes, it's bad.
[01:26:20] What are the chances things are going to go a little bit different?
[01:26:23] The chances are freaking too high.
[01:26:26] And you don't really gain that much.
[01:26:28] There's not really that much of a advantage anyways.
[01:26:31] So that that reminding me of that.
[01:26:34] Next, have I selected unnecessary intermediate objectives, which distract from the attainment
[01:26:38] of the final objective?
[01:26:41] Intermediate objectives facilitate control and maintain direction.
[01:26:44] However, too many such objectives destroy flexibility and initiative and tend to slow up
[01:26:49] the attack.
[01:26:50] Man.
[01:26:53] Man, that's good.
[01:26:54] You know what's good about that?
[01:26:55] I like that because it's contrary to what we all
[01:26:57] say.
[01:26:58] I say, and I'm saying, we not, I'm not just talking about Esslope front.
[01:27:02] You know, people hate what?
[01:27:03] And it makes sense.
[01:27:04] We know it makes sense.
[01:27:05] Hey, we got this big project to do.
[01:27:06] Okay, let's figure out some intermediate steps that we have some short term goals.
[01:27:10] And we can move in that direction.
[01:27:11] And it feels good.
[01:27:12] We get gratification.
[01:27:13] We make sure we're on track.
[01:27:15] There's a big copy.
[01:27:16] Can we go too far with that?
[01:27:17] Yes, we absolutely can.
[01:27:20] Now all of a sudden, we've got goals that we're trying to achieve or doing reports on goals that
[01:27:23] don't even freaking matter.
[01:27:25] Don't let that happen.
[01:27:27] Have I determined the time and space factors of attacking units from the light into
[01:27:31] departure back to the assembly area?
[01:27:34] Have I set the stage for the assault?
[01:27:36] Have I set the light limited or the light into departure too far back?
[01:27:40] Have I used my forward air control or supporting artillery commander, supporting battery,
[01:27:45] mortar commander, engineer, put two meter, communications officer, assault, assault, gun
[01:27:49] put two meter, reconnaissance put two meter surgeon and my planning.
[01:27:54] And my staff in planning, checking and completing the detailed plans.
[01:27:58] And I'm kind of breezing through, but that one right there, I'm going to pause.
[01:28:02] So he names off all these different people, all these different professionals.
[01:28:07] And then he says, have I used them in planning, checking and completing the details of my
[01:28:13] plans?
[01:28:16] And the reason I want to focus on that, because a bunch of times he talks about, hey, I got
[01:28:19] to give my plan to have I give my plan clearly.
[01:28:21] And what he's saying here is it's not my plan.
[01:28:24] It's the plan of the artillery guy, the mortar guy, the engineer guy, the communications
[01:28:29] guy, the assault guy, the reconnaissance guy, the surgeon, and my staff, it's their plan.
[01:28:37] Have I used them to come up with this plan?
[01:28:41] And if I haven't, then I'm wrong.
[01:28:45] Have I considered the ammunition available to my fire support units?
[01:28:49] Are my supporting fires plans that there will be no laws during critical phase of the attack?
[01:28:52] Have I given consideration the use of nuclear fires?
[01:28:58] To time fire over my tanks, if the tanks are available to smoke, to having my infantry
[01:29:02] follow closely as supporting fires does my plan require holding up any elements during the
[01:29:06] attack to clear barriers or obstacles?
[01:29:09] Does my plan of attack for sea and provide for the next step in case of success, partial
[01:29:15] success, or failure?
[01:29:20] Is this planning?
[01:29:24] But think about that.
[01:29:25] Do I have a plan for success?
[01:29:28] Partial success or failure?
[01:29:29] Do I know what I'm going to do?
[01:29:31] Have I given some unit the mission of watching and securing my flanks?
[01:29:38] Have I ensured that after the seizure of the objective, my units have a detailed plan for
[01:29:43] consolidation, reorganization, and continuing the attacks that they will not rest on their
[01:29:47] goals thus exposing themselves to a surprise counter attack and losses from enemy fires or
[01:29:52] the loss of the initiative?
[01:29:58] Just imagine sitting down with your leadership as you assess something that you're going
[01:30:03] to do and trying to come up with this many holes to punch in your own plan.
[01:30:10] If you're not doing this, the holes don't get filled in.
[01:30:18] Having next phases of the attack order, having war game the plan in his mind and being
[01:30:25] satisfied as to his condition.
[01:30:27] I know I'll say this, it's not in his mind as far as I'm concerned.
[01:30:30] I'm getting the staff together.
[01:30:31] We're going to sit there.
[01:30:32] I'm going to have everyone beat this plan up.
[01:30:34] We're going to go through these questions.
[01:30:35] We're going to come up with more questions.
[01:30:37] Having worked game the plan in his mind and being satisfied as to his solution to commander
[01:30:41] then proceeds to the actual issuing of his order, it can be assumed that some time during
[01:30:45] the foregoing phases he has in addition considered the following.
[01:30:48] He's not even done considering yet.
[01:30:51] I must not take so much time in making my plans and announcing my orders that my subordinate
[01:30:58] have inadequate time before each hour.
[01:31:01] In case of doubt, I will send a staff officer forward to a subordinate commander rather
[01:31:04] than calling him back or hold my conference for issuing orders well for it.
[01:31:09] What does that mean?
[01:31:10] We're taking care of the frontline commander.
[01:31:12] Dude, hey, Dave, I know you're preparing for this right now, but I want you to come
[01:31:16] back to my location so I can brief you.
[01:31:18] No, I'll send a guy out to get you.
[01:31:21] Make sure you know what you need to know.
[01:31:25] In order to avoid misunderstandings and overlooking and important things, I must issue my orders
[01:31:31] in the standard sequence.
[01:31:33] I must make sure that every commander knows what he is to do and win.
[01:31:39] I must impress all with the need for vigorous execution of my plans.
[01:31:47] If the answers to all these are satisfactory, you and your units are off to a good start.
[01:31:54] Dude, what?
[01:31:57] What do you like about that?
[01:31:58] If you do all these things.
[01:32:00] Yeah.
[01:32:01] All these things.
[01:32:03] You're off to a good start.
[01:32:04] You're off to a good start.
[01:32:05] You made the first step in the right direction.
[01:32:08] Do not later second guess your decisions and change your orders.
[01:32:13] Now this is one to talk about at least a little bit.
[01:32:20] Are there times when you need to change your orders?
[01:32:22] Absolutely.
[01:32:23] Are there times when new intelligence comes to light and you say to yourself, you know what?
[01:32:27] The plan that I came up with is no longer optimal.
[01:32:30] I need to change it.
[01:32:31] Is that happened?
[01:32:32] Yes.
[01:32:35] Are there times where you, you, some micro change occurs on the battlefield and you decide
[01:32:43] to change plans that's already been rehearsed, fought through and everyone's been briefed.
[01:32:50] And now you're going to throw a curve ball in everybody.
[01:32:53] I can almost guarantee you that you should just, as we used to say in the teams, plan
[01:32:59] your dive and then dive your plan.
[01:33:01] Then you're diving dive so you come up with a plan and then go and execute your plan.
[01:33:05] When you start throwing curve balls and trying to change things on the fly, is actually
[01:33:11] evident, evident, hayford from Black Rifle Coffee.
[01:33:14] I was out doing some archery with him and we were talking about something he goes, yeah,
[01:33:20] yeah, we'll just figure it out under water.
[01:33:22] Which is, which is actually hilarious thing because when you're diving, obviously you can't
[01:33:26] talk, you can't figure anything out under water.
[01:33:28] And surprisingly, I'd never heard that expression before, but it's freaking awesome.
[01:33:32] It's freaking awesome.
[01:33:33] Hey, we'll just figure it out under water.
[01:33:35] Meaning if we let this go, we are screwed.
[01:33:39] We're screwed.
[01:33:40] So you don't want to figure things out under water.
[01:33:42] What you do is you dive your plan.
[01:33:44] This is such a, this is why leadership is hard because there are absolutely times where
[01:33:48] you go, you know what, bad plan.
[01:33:50] We need to change, we need to change it right now.
[01:33:52] We need to change the plan right now.
[01:33:55] That's fine.
[01:33:57] There's also times where you say, you know what, we're close.
[01:34:00] And what we will gain from trying to adjust this plan right now will be the adjustments.
[01:34:08] We'll be so hard to make it this juncture that it's going to counter any positives that
[01:34:12] will come from trying to change these plan right now.
[01:34:16] So you have to be careful of that.
[01:34:20] Don't harass the subordinate commanders while they are planning.
[01:34:24] Make sure you're there orders and getting ready to carry out their assignments.
[01:34:28] You and your staff should make such checks as are needed without violating this.
[01:34:32] So other of the frontline troops, once the attack starts, you can influence the battle
[01:34:36] by shifting of supporting fires maneuver and use of your reserves.
[01:34:39] You should be prepared to do this.
[01:34:41] You should now anticipate what may happen so that you will be at the critical spot at the
[01:34:47] critical time to give that command push necessary to keep the attack going.
[01:34:57] Commanders should make planning the attack a subject for schools and table exercises
[01:35:03] and tactical walks or rides for the appropriate officers.
[01:35:07] And man, I know you didn't get a chance to do EF battlefield, which we went out to get
[01:35:11] his bird.
[01:35:12] But that tactical walk that we tend to just, it's freaking awesome.
[01:35:16] It's awesome.
[01:35:19] Walking the battlefield and understanding the terrain and seeing it on the ground is absolutely
[01:35:25] phenomenal.
[01:35:26] Lessons learned are incredible.
[01:35:27] I'm going to have Jason and Steve on.
[01:35:30] We're going to talk about that.
[01:35:34] And this is really the last piece and we'll hold off for one more episode.
[01:35:41] One more one more episode for me to fulfill my own personal satisfaction in this book.
[01:35:51] A commander who prepares a checklist from these guidelines will have a great aid in time
[01:35:57] of pressure.
[01:35:58] He will enable him to plan thoroughly with speed instead of haste.
[01:36:06] So speed instead of haste.
[01:36:14] Do essential things first.
[01:36:16] Do things right the first time.
[01:36:19] Practice more than one thing at a time.
[01:36:25] So many just quotes to think about.
[01:36:29] I think one of the first quotes I sent you in a little picture.
[01:36:33] The attack is the key to success.
[01:36:36] The defense is merely a temporary expedient to conserve forces for an attack elsewhere, or to
[01:36:42] prepare for an attack at a future date.
[01:36:48] So many good quotes.
[01:36:49] And look, I'm not saying that you should blindly follow the thoughts and ideas in this
[01:36:58] book.
[01:36:59] And I would never say it.
[01:37:01] And we've gone back and forth and we've come to that areas where we disagree with what
[01:37:06] the general has to say.
[01:37:08] But I'll tell you what, add a minimum.
[01:37:09] You should consider them.
[01:37:13] You should consider.
[01:37:14] They could consider those thoughts.
[01:37:19] You should understand where they came from.
[01:37:21] You should understand what they meant.
[01:37:23] You should.
[01:37:24] I should keep them in front of mind because these are lessons that were written and blood.
[01:37:31] And they were proved on the battlefield.
[01:37:36] And they were meant as the book states, and you know what I'm saying here saying, hey,
[01:37:40] don't you don't follow blindly, guess what the book is called?
[01:37:43] The book is called guidelines.
[01:37:46] It's called guidelines.
[01:37:49] Guidelines are supposed to steer us.
[01:37:51] They're supposed to get us going in the right direction.
[01:37:55] They're not supposed to be followed blindly.
[01:37:58] They're not supposed to be obeyed with no deviation whatsoever.
[01:38:04] They're supposed to steer us.
[01:38:06] They're supposed to steer the people that we lead in the right direction.
[01:38:16] What do you think, Dave?
[01:38:20] It's kind of crazy, right?
[01:38:21] It's crazy.
[01:38:22] That I'm scribbling.
[01:38:24] I'm writing notes on this.
[01:38:26] I'm thinking about, I'm just thinking about, almost trying to put myself in general
[01:38:35] clerks shoes, as if I could do that.
[01:38:39] That's page after page, after page of what appears to be all this kind of a new shovel.
[01:38:46] These little details he's bringing out.
[01:38:49] But they're all things.
[01:38:50] Just like you just said, these are all things that he is probably seen over and over again.
[01:38:56] See the reason why teams don't succeed.
[01:39:01] I was trying to summarize what he was saying in my mind is, how much of your plan, how
[01:39:05] much of this thing that you've created, you build the strategy.
[01:39:08] This is what we're going to do.
[01:39:10] Then you build a plan.
[01:39:11] How much of that plan, as you go through these other phases, to test it and pressure,
[01:39:15] test it and consider the errors in it, how much of that is really based in reality?
[01:39:22] How much of is based in truth?
[01:39:24] How much is this what you're contributing?
[01:39:26] Your own brain thinking, this is all going to work out.
[01:39:28] My idea is brilliant.
[01:39:30] I know what's going to happen.
[01:39:31] I put it all together in my head.
[01:39:32] This is how I was going to play out this perfect scenario that I create.
[01:39:37] He's basically saying, don't do that.
[01:39:40] Bring in all these other people to annihilate and poke holes and dig and pick and pull
[01:39:47] every possible error and omission.
[01:39:49] All of the things you haven't done in your plan and in the same breath he's saying,
[01:39:57] and oh, by the way, we're going to stick to the plan.
[01:40:00] The reason we're going to stick to the plan is because actually it's not my plan anymore.
[01:40:03] It hasn't been my plan for a long time because always people came in and understand what
[01:40:07] we're trying to do, pick to the part and they're the ones are going to go execute.
[01:40:12] You talked about humility before.
[01:40:15] The humility of a leader to say, I built the strategy, but the plan, you know why you
[01:40:21] guys are all here to figure out everything wrong with it.
[01:40:25] So you can go execute when the scenario completely falls apart because there's no way I can
[01:40:28] predict what's going to happen.
[01:40:31] I mean, that is crazy.
[01:40:34] The application to that in life is, especially since this is a guideline.
[01:40:40] It is universal because that's what you need to do.
[01:40:43] I don't know the tactic, I don't know how the things are going to play out.
[01:40:46] I don't.
[01:40:48] But hearing what he's saying and the risk of creating it in your own mind and saying, this
[01:40:54] is what's going to go happen, go execute and setting your team up to fail for not being
[01:40:58] prepared for the thousands of contingencies that are absolutely going to happen with your
[01:41:02] plan.
[01:41:03] That finish was, and I know it's not the finish of the whole thing, but that finish was crazy.
[01:41:07] And then he likes to, he concludes with it.
[01:41:09] Oh, by the way, if you do all these things, you're after good start.
[01:41:12] You're off to a good start.
[01:41:13] Oh, that's that's man.
[01:41:14] I think I talked about it in the EF online.
[01:41:19] I think I might have even talked about the debrief podcast of planning with a negative attitude.
[01:41:25] Like, when you're coming up with a plan, you should be looking at that thing as a total
[01:41:29] pessimist.
[01:41:31] This isn't going to work.
[01:41:32] We're not going to have enough people.
[01:41:33] The enemy is going to be there.
[01:41:34] That's how you want to plan.
[01:41:36] And then the other thing you got to be careful of, you know, you just said thousands
[01:41:40] of contingencies.
[01:41:41] And there are thousands of contingencies.
[01:41:45] And there's no possible way you can plan for thousands of contingencies.
[01:41:50] What you can do is you can have decentralized command.
[01:41:55] You can have a plan that's adaptable.
[01:41:57] You can give people the freedom to maneuver, to adapt to those contingencies, which are
[01:42:02] unforeseen.
[01:42:05] As long as they understand why they're doing what they're doing and they understand what
[01:42:08] the intent of the operation is, they can make a thousand decisions that never even talk
[01:42:13] to you.
[01:42:14] Never talk to you one time.
[01:42:17] That's the goal.
[01:42:18] The plan has to be flexible enough.
[01:42:20] The command needs to be decentralized down to the lowest possible level.
[01:42:26] And as long as everybody understands what it is that we're trying to accomplish, they
[01:42:29] understand why they're doing what they're doing.
[01:42:31] They understand the intent of the operation.
[01:42:34] They can make a thousand decisions by themselves and get the mission done.
[01:42:44] That is a powerful thing to think about.
[01:42:47] So like I said, I think we got one more podcast with this book and it will be done and
[01:42:52] we'll get it out there to the world.
[01:42:54] We'll get some some version of it out there to the troops.
[01:42:59] And that way we can use this book to guide us.
[01:43:02] We'll steer us in the right direction.
[01:43:07] So echo Charles, speaking of steering us and guiding us in the right direction.
[01:43:17] Maybe we're not right direction.
[01:43:19] Maybe we're not right direction.
[01:43:20] We're not going to, when we need that remote.
[01:43:22] We're going to get up and we're going to do the right thing.
[01:43:25] We're going to get the sweat full.
[01:43:27] Yes.
[01:43:28] Solution or the solution with some sweat.
[01:43:29] We'll say.
[01:43:30] Yeah.
[01:43:31] Either way.
[01:43:32] Yes.
[01:43:33] So a path.
[01:43:34] Really?
[01:43:35] Direction.
[01:43:36] The path.
[01:43:37] Yes.
[01:43:38] She's actually.
[01:43:39] I'm not all that right now.
[01:43:41] But I'm going to set up.
[01:43:43] Okay.
[01:43:44] Yes.
[01:43:45] We're all on this path.
[01:43:47] And wise men once said path is not easy.
[01:43:54] The path is hard.
[01:43:57] Anyway.
[01:43:58] Okay. So on this path, we do need supplementation.
[01:44:02] Okay.
[01:44:03] And supplementation.
[01:44:04] And kind of you kind of forget about this where you know how like you probably will never
[01:44:10] have this problem.
[01:44:11] Maybe you do maybe not at all.
[01:44:12] But they broke maybe.
[01:44:13] So you know how like you're really used to taking.
[01:44:15] Okay.
[01:44:16] So I'm really used to taking discipline right before work comes.
[01:44:19] And if I start running low or run out panic.
[01:44:23] Yeah.
[01:44:24] Like, well, for lack of a better term, we'll say, yeah.
[01:44:28] But it's the kind like, right, if I run out, I don't know if I can work out.
[01:44:32] Of course, I'm not thinking that specifically, but that's the feeling I get, you know.
[01:44:36] But then I got to remind myself, no, no, this is all supplementation.
[01:44:39] It's help on this path.
[01:44:40] That's what all this stuff is.
[01:44:41] So just keep that in mind.
[01:44:43] Okay.
[01:44:44] All right.
[01:44:45] So anyway, with that and the reason I thought about that also another reason was this path is hard.
[01:44:52] Right.
[01:44:53] And like I just said, okay.
[01:44:54] So the other day, my wife got injured.
[01:44:56] Right.
[01:44:57] So I'm not sure if I can do it.
[01:44:58] I'm not sure if I can do it.
[01:44:59] I'm not sure, but I'm saying, I just, I don't want people worried about you.
[01:45:04] Oh, yeah, yeah.
[01:45:05] Correct.
[01:45:06] Yeah.
[01:45:07] Yeah.
[01:45:07] Some fractures on the feet, you know, whatever, you know, I had to slide in injuries that are not
[01:45:12] life changing in any negative way.
[01:45:13] For a very comfortable area.
[01:45:15] In convenience.
[01:45:17] But we're pushing through it.
[01:45:20] We're going to recover.
[01:45:21] We're going to shift some, some resources, right?
[01:45:23] Some sliding into various roles.
[01:45:25] Right.
[01:45:26] One of them is required a little bit earlier of a morning for me a lot earlier.
[01:45:31] Right.
[01:45:32] Right.
[01:45:33] Right.
[01:45:34] We were not going to go into those details, you know.
[01:45:37] But I wound out with, if I'm not mistaken, two hours of sleep, a little bit more than two
[01:45:42] hours.
[01:45:43] Like under three hours of sleep.
[01:45:44] Right.
[01:45:45] So of course, you know what that means.
[01:45:48] The workout becomes questionable.
[01:45:50] You see, I'm saying.
[01:45:52] But so I started thinking.
[01:45:54] And it has to do with what we're talking about last time where you kind of think about
[01:45:59] it like, what does it take to get this workout done?
[01:46:03] And my default is, well, obviously a long nap first.
[01:46:08] But let's say that's not available to us.
[01:46:10] When you rather just get it done, well, you know, I'd rather it be done for sure.
[01:46:16] But I don't know about the getting it part, you seem to say, when you're only on two,
[01:46:21] half hours sleep, whatever.
[01:46:22] Anyway, so I'm like, what would it take?
[01:46:24] Okay.
[01:46:25] So what if, and this is just going on, it might might.
[01:46:28] What would it be like, like, what's holding me back from actually just doing it?
[01:46:33] You know, like, what would, is there anything that would keep me from achieving that,
[01:46:38] you know, getting the workout done, some small, like such a small deal when I'm
[01:46:42] playing it out loud.
[01:46:43] But nonetheless.
[01:46:44] Yeah, I saw a video the other day of Joe Rogan and they had Joe Rogan, somebody
[01:46:49] was talking to him and they just were like, they were showing his face while the person
[01:46:53] was talking, he was thinking about like some other totally random, he wasn't paying attention.
[01:46:57] Is that how you're feeling right off the side?
[01:46:58] So just in that boat.
[01:46:59] I was just like, dude, what are you talking about?
[01:47:03] You're not trust me.
[01:47:04] Trust me.
[01:47:05] That's bringing home.
[01:47:06] It's going to have some of that.
[01:47:07] Bring it home.
[01:47:08] No, I'm telling you this, I have something to tell you.
[01:47:10] Okay.
[01:47:11] So I wind up just concluding that.
[01:47:16] I ended up concluding that, okay.
[01:47:19] Dave's got to look at the scary thing is Dave's face.
[01:47:23] He's going to rock in his face.
[01:47:24] He's really trying to stay with you.
[01:47:27] Yeah, he's staying with me because he knows that he's going to be able to use this.
[01:47:31] Okay.
[01:47:32] Let me get over here.
[01:47:33] All right.
[01:47:34] So anyway, I'm like, okay, technically there's nothing keeping me from getting
[01:47:39] this work up done, even though it seems like a real painful idea right now.
[01:47:43] Is there anything keeping you forgetting this story done?
[01:47:46] The actual content of the story.
[01:47:48] So Barry, you should incorporate this mindset into right now.
[01:47:51] Okay.
[01:47:52] I can finish it if I don't start it.
[01:47:54] Okay.
[01:47:55] Anyway, the answer ended up to be nothing aside from me very much not being in the mood
[01:48:02] to I had convinced myself that I need a certain amount of sleep to get a workout done
[01:48:06] on an individual level.
[01:48:07] It's not true.
[01:48:08] Not true.
[01:48:09] So it's kind of like, okay, it's kind of a form of realizing that you kind of have
[01:48:13] mental toughness in a way.
[01:48:15] Okay.
[01:48:16] Like realizing it, not invoking it, just realizing it and then you can use it.
[01:48:21] So I got the workout done.
[01:48:23] Okay.
[01:48:24] All right.
[01:48:25] What also what that did, what that did also is set the precedent.
[01:48:32] There I was.
[01:48:33] They did it was going nowhere.
[01:48:36] It set the precedent for it.
[01:48:38] If that happens again, you just automatically know.
[01:48:41] You seem saying, okay.
[01:48:42] Rather than trying to deep deep.
[01:48:43] You don't have to dig deep.
[01:48:44] You just gotta realize some stuff sometimes.
[01:48:47] This is what I'm saying.
[01:48:48] Roger.
[01:48:49] Anyway.
[01:48:50] So you can do the supplementation when you're doing these things, whether you're
[01:48:53] out of discipline or not, this is all supplementation.
[01:48:57] You do the workout, you take the supplementation.
[01:49:00] It's like you ever play that game super off-road.
[01:49:02] You play that game?
[01:49:03] No.
[01:49:04] No.
[01:49:05] It's like a game like you race, a truck.
[01:49:09] For real, it makes sense.
[01:49:10] You race in a truck and then if you win, you get credits where you can buy like acceleration
[01:49:16] or speed or traction or whatever.
[01:49:20] That's what every one of these supplements is.
[01:49:23] Okay.
[01:49:24] You seem saying, got the discipline for your mind, for your body, got
[01:49:27] won't for the protein, you know, all these things.
[01:49:30] So if you get them all, like you have the full decked out routine for the path,
[01:49:35] this is what I'm saying.
[01:49:36] So a bunch of things.
[01:49:37] Join warfare.
[01:49:38] Super cruel.
[01:49:39] Discipline.
[01:49:40] Vitamin B.
[01:49:42] Cold War.
[01:49:43] Malk.
[01:49:44] Yeah, but smashing Pumpkin Malk, which has to be just brought up because...
[01:49:49] Yeah, it's good.
[01:49:51] But you gotta include what Malk is, Malk is, though.
[01:49:55] Protein.
[01:49:56] Don't they really know that now?
[01:49:58] Kind of.
[01:49:59] I mean, this is the first lesson.
[01:50:00] You're so realistic.
[01:50:02] They know every time.
[01:50:04] I think you're actually incorrect on that.
[01:50:06] I think that, that your opinion is factually incorrect on that.
[01:50:09] I feel like there was a value there.
[01:50:11] Okay.
[01:50:12] Would there something value there or no?
[01:50:17] Do you think there was some value?
[01:50:20] Yes, I'm...
[01:50:21] I gotta be honest with you.
[01:50:23] I'm kind of over here thinking there's a little bit of a conflict in what you're saying.
[01:50:27] Okay.
[01:50:28] Because what I would think is, if I was on two hours of sleep, man, and like, look, the soon
[01:50:32] I'd get this...
[01:50:33] Soon I get in, the soon I get out, and you're in complete control of that situation.
[01:50:38] And it's kind of the situation we're in right now, I was like, bro, if there's anybody
[01:50:41] at all of getting through the support phase, it's you.
[01:50:45] Bro, you can jam through this.
[01:50:48] Well, much like you did that workout.
[01:50:50] Well, respectfully, I don't think this phase is the part you just jam through as it were.
[01:50:56] You know, this is important information.
[01:50:58] I don't know.
[01:50:59] I think it is.
[01:51:00] Do you think it is?
[01:51:01] Fair enough.
[01:51:02] All right. Well, it's not jam through it.
[01:51:03] I don't know.
[01:51:04] I don't know.
[01:51:05] Cool.
[01:51:05] Can we get through it?
[01:51:06] Thanks, everyone.
[01:51:07] That's about to press stop.
[01:51:08] Thank you for listening.
[01:51:11] Okay.
[01:51:12] All right.
[01:51:13] Thanks for the support.
[01:51:14] Okay.
[01:51:15] Look, Jock, if you want to be invited back onto the podcast, you can
[01:51:18] bear with me.
[01:51:19] Anyway, supplement joint stuff, joint warfare, super-cryl oil.
[01:51:23] This is for you joints.
[01:51:25] Vitamin D3, Cold War Immunity, also other benefits.
[01:51:30] Discipline, discipline, go for your mind, and your body everyday, take down one.
[01:51:35] It'll help you. Trust me. It'll help you.
[01:51:38] Energy drink, discipline, go RTD, energy drink, healthy, legitimately, factually healthy.
[01:51:44] Real energy, real energy, not like am I up for two hours and now we're looking for real energy.
[01:51:52] Clean energy.
[01:51:53] And this sounds kind of odd, but there's no poisonous elements in there.
[01:52:01] Yeah.
[01:52:02] So you need to have to say that until you look at some other energy.
[01:52:07] Things out there that do have places out there.
[01:52:10] That may or may not have places out there.
[01:52:12] Or things that can be considered poisonous.
[01:52:15] Yeah.
[01:52:16] So, you know, there is that. So it's a big deal.
[01:52:19] Boom, continuing on the list, MOC, dessert in the form of a protein.
[01:52:22] All kinds of flavors, including, but not limited to smashing pumpkin, which is inspired by pumpkin spice.
[01:52:30] Yeah. It is fall at the moment. Hey, listen, we just real quick.
[01:52:34] When you talked about maybe some other, let's call them energy drinks broadly.
[01:52:41] Right now we're experiencing some conflict.
[01:52:45] Some people might even say acts of war have been, have transpired in this category.
[01:52:54] So we may need to go, well, we will retow it.
[01:52:58] We are retaliating the best way. If you want to help retaliate, and you happen to at this time, when is it?
[01:53:06] If you're alive right now, if you're, it is November 2020.
[01:53:14] We are rolling, we are in wall wash stores in Florida.
[01:53:19] If you're there, and you want to help win the war that we are engaged in at this time, go to wall
[01:53:25] wall, in Florida, and you get yourself a bunch of jacquadissipling go to help us defeat the enemy.
[01:53:37] Thank you. You can also get a vitamin shop. If you're not in Florida, you can also get it at originmain.com.
[01:53:45] You can also get it. You can get it on Amazon. Straight up.
[01:53:49] Also, forgot to mention, Jacco White Tea, Tea Begs, and Cance, by the way. Again, this is supplementation.
[01:53:58] Right? You're on the path with or without this. Now you got the supplementation.
[01:54:02] You got the full decked out vehicle on the path. Good to go. You do all these things.
[01:54:09] You're off to a good start. Hey, hey, speaking of flavors, by the way, you mentioned smashing pumpkin.
[01:54:16] Yeah. We have another flavor that's been released into the wild. Yeah. Okay. Dave Burke. What's the new flavor?
[01:54:23] Why don't you tell us the discipline go? Yes.
[01:54:26] flavor. Afterburner Orange. And this is Dave Burke's signature flavor indeed it is.
[01:54:36] So, we this came from when you were a child. You liked to drink orange soda of some kind.
[01:54:42] We're not talking about brands. You have replicated that flavor.
[01:54:47] Now is it a little bit because discipline go traditionally is not Serapy sweet. Right?
[01:54:54] It's not sugar. It doesn't have that taste. So, did you is a lighter form of one of these former
[01:55:01] or an orange drinks that you use by design? It's actually supposed to kind of make you remember what it tastes like.
[01:55:06] Well, that is tasting like you're drinking a pile of sugar.
[01:55:10] Cool. And that's exactly what it does. It's a little more refreshing. It is refreshing. It is cleaner.
[01:55:15] But due to it is it is good. So, there you go. If you want to support well, if you want to support afterburner Orange,
[01:55:24] if you want to support Dave Burke. Good deal to yes, that's the one.
[01:55:28] Is it say good deal Dave on the can? It does. This is a good deal.
[01:55:32] Man, you're off to good start. It's cool that anyone can go back in time and witness the creation of the nickname good deal Dave.
[01:55:39] It's pretty, that's kind of cool. Very, very cool. I think it's kind of cool.
[01:55:44] All right. Sorry up. What else?
[01:55:46] Oh, I didn't jam through that man. It was really good. Thank you.
[01:55:49] Yeah. It kind of is my jam. It was one might say.
[01:55:52] All right. Yeah. Additionally, or Jim Maine, you mentioned origin made in dot com.
[01:55:56] You can get this stuff. That's one of the places you can get all this great stuff. Great stuff.
[01:56:01] You can also get jujitsu stuff, guise, rash guards all made in America by the way.
[01:56:06] You know, some hoodies and whatnot. Also American made denim jeans and boots.
[01:56:16] Yeah. For where you might want to check out the Delta 68 jeans.
[01:56:21] Yeah. They are being produced as fast as we can make them right now.
[01:56:24] We had a little, we had a delta to make. There was a gap.
[01:56:28] We had a little stand down during COVID and we're back up and running.
[01:56:33] And there's a little bit of a redesign. And the new version of Delta 68s are just freaking awesome.
[01:56:41] They're awesome. You don't have any yet. Do you? I do. Oh, you do. You got the new ones?
[01:56:46] I got one pair. That's cool. Yes. They're sick. They're awesome.
[01:56:51] All right. So Delta jeans, you can check those out.
[01:56:54] And obviously we're training jujitsu.
[01:56:57] So there's some jujitsu stuff from these guise.
[01:57:01] Brash guards boots, boots, belts. Oh, damn me. And wallet.
[01:57:07] Yeah. Yeah. I saw that. I saw this too. And Brad, I don't look at sea wallets and be like,
[01:57:13] Ooh, cool wallet. You know, you know how you get marketed to, right?
[01:57:17] You know, it's like, oh, check out our new XYZ. I'm not the kind. Well, usually wallets don't like,
[01:57:23] what do you see? They don't, they don't, they don't land. They don't like your fire. They don't like my fire.
[01:57:28] Got it. Exactly right. But the origin wallet is basically kind of lit my fire.
[01:57:33] It's actually not less it's on there. Orgeneme.com. Also,
[01:57:38] Jocquas a store. It's called Jocquas store. And this is where you can represent.
[01:57:43] You want to get off to a good start. Boom. Here you go right here.
[01:57:46] This little three don't shirt. Hoodies hats. Some rash guards on there. Other stuff to get after it. Good.
[01:57:54] It's an important. Oh, should I say a approach to life. Good. A good philosophy.
[01:58:02] Also, big deal.
[01:58:04] Yes, kind of an announcement in a way. There's a T shirt club happening.
[01:58:10] You get one shirt every month for a little subscription situation. These aren't actuals with the subscription.
[01:58:18] These are situation. Those are not shirts. These are not shirts that you can get on Jocquas store.
[01:58:23] By the way, there. What's called exclusive. Look at you. To the subscription T shirt club.
[01:58:29] This is not for everybody. Or maybe it is for everybody. I don't know. You got to look.
[01:58:34] But nonetheless, yeah, it's on there. So yeah, jockels.org.com. Look if you like something subscription T shirt club or not.
[01:58:41] Get something. Good way to support and represent while you're on the path.
[01:58:46] Here's some other things you do. Subscribe to the podcast if you want to.
[01:58:49] This is the only podcast. By the way, we've got a podcast called Jockel unraveling with myself and Darrell Cooper.
[01:58:56] We got the grounded podcast. We got the Warrior Kid podcast. And I know I know I owe you.
[01:59:03] You saw some warrior kid podcast and some grounded podcast, really.
[01:59:08] Yeah.
[01:59:09] unraveling echoes. He's just rolling those out. No, he's going hot.
[01:59:12] On those things.
[01:59:14] We throw the debrief in there, too. Right. We got the debrief podcast, which Dave and I have been doing
[01:59:20] Life and I have done a couple. So that's just that's inside the Jockel podcast.
[01:59:26] Feed feed.
[01:59:28] Sure. The feed.
[01:59:29] Mara says feed.
[01:59:34] This podcast.
[01:59:36] Some people like to watch video rather than just audio.
[01:59:39] Maybe more immersive. You know, we got our smart TVs, projectors, whatever the case may be.
[01:59:44] Anyway, we do have a YouTube channel also some excerpts on there.
[01:59:48] If you need these messages in smaller, what do you say, doses?
[01:59:52] Mm.
[01:59:53] Not doses. That's not the correct word.
[01:59:55] It seems to work.
[01:59:56] Smaller.
[02:00:00] Cut up clips. Anyway, some excerpts on there.
[02:00:01] Anyway, this is work better than cut up.
[02:00:03] There you go. Boom. There you go. Those is according to Jockel.
[02:00:06] Anyway, yeah, it's on there. Real easy to find YouTube.
[02:00:08] There it is. Boom. YouTube channel subscribe on that one.
[02:00:12] Also psychological warfare. If you have any moments of weakness, two hours of sleep or otherwise.
[02:00:17] If you just in the mood to skip a workout.
[02:00:20] I got three hours of sleep last night.
[02:00:22] Yeah, but you don't count with this sleep thing.
[02:00:25] I said, I said, what I said.
[02:00:27] You're like, yeah, the end point.
[02:00:29] Here's the end.
[02:00:30] What's in Somni. Here's the end Somni.
[02:00:32] Here's what in Somni is like for me.
[02:00:35] My mind isn't a roller coaster.
[02:00:37] Well, I was a roller coaster, but I'm going down tracks.
[02:00:40] And every, like every thought I have, it's just a right turn left turn.
[02:00:44] And I'm just, I, it's just, my mind is just racing.
[02:00:48] Yeah.
[02:00:48] And I'm going this, thinking that, thinking another thing.
[02:00:50] And there's no possible way I can go to sleep.
[02:00:52] There's no possible way I can go to sleep.
[02:00:54] And so I was up into, around.
[02:00:57] It was like, it was like 1808.
[02:01:00] The last time I looked at the clock.
[02:01:02] Mm.
[02:01:03] And then the alarm clock went off.
[02:01:06] So like you fell asleep.
[02:01:08] Didn't realize you fell asleep in by the time.
[02:01:10] Yeah, so we're just somewhere after 1808.
[02:01:14] I fell asleep.
[02:01:17] And then the alarm clock went off.
[02:01:19] You got to have time.
[02:01:20] You got to have time.
[02:01:21] I'm going to get that.
[02:01:25] I'll get that sometimes that that's actually pretty good description.
[02:01:27] I'll get that sometimes.
[02:01:29] But not before I go to sleep, it'll be like,
[02:01:31] I'll wake up at not quote, I'm quote middle of the night.
[02:01:33] And that'll happen.
[02:01:35] And I can't go back sleep.
[02:01:37] And it gets to the point where I'm like, bro, I just got like 25 more minutes.
[02:01:40] I almost got up.
[02:01:42] I almost got up at midnight and just went to work out.
[02:01:44] I probably should have.
[02:01:45] In fact, I should have.
[02:01:46] But I can't think it's right there.
[02:01:48] Like maybe over the ground.
[02:01:49] Maybe around this next corner is.
[02:01:50] It'll be a little while.
[02:01:51] Maybe it's just there.
[02:01:52] Some waiting for it waiting for it.
[02:01:53] And the longer you're trying to wait for it, the harder it is to come around.
[02:01:56] So yeah, that's a debate for sure.
[02:01:59] And then I had a bad, no, I had a dream.
[02:02:01] I had a bad dream.
[02:02:03] I had a dream the other night.
[02:02:05] I'm in like somewhere, some foreign country.
[02:02:09] And something happens.
[02:02:13] And we like get the call like, hey, we got to go right now.
[02:02:16] And so I run to get my gear.
[02:02:18] I pick up my gear and my magazines are not loaded.
[02:02:21] And the helicopter's coming into like, take us to do whatever we got to do.
[02:02:24] There's guys in trouble.
[02:02:25] The helicopter comes in and I'm sitting there loading mags as fast as I can.
[02:02:29] And then I'm running.
[02:02:31] And I see the helicopter leaving with like my guys on board and it's leaving.
[02:02:36] And I missed it.
[02:02:37] Like they had to go.
[02:02:39] And, bro, I mean, I was just like feeling sick.
[02:02:42] And I woke up and it took me, you know, whatever.
[02:02:45] Ten seconds to realize that it didn't really happen.
[02:02:49] And so I had the worst feeling ever.
[02:02:51] And then five seconds later, I'm like super thankful.
[02:02:54] And then I'm bummed out again because it happened.
[02:02:57] You were brave.
[02:02:58] No, right, that makes sense.
[02:02:59] I was gonna like kind of tease you whatever.
[02:03:01] You're like, we're talking about.
[02:03:02] But I said I can dream.
[02:03:04] Not with that kind of stuff.
[02:03:05] Obviously, but it was with football games.
[02:03:06] Like I'm like trying to make it to the football game or whatever.
[02:03:09] And then I can like hear on the radio.
[02:03:11] It's like half time.
[02:03:12] You know, that's where you're into the first quarter.
[02:03:13] And I'm like, not even at the game yet.
[02:03:15] And it's like, you know, it's third quarter.
[02:03:17] And I get there in the game is like finishing.
[02:03:19] Two.
[02:03:20] We never would have anticipated in one million years that you had some kind of anxiety about being late for it.
[02:03:25] In the end.
[02:03:26] Yeah.
[02:03:27] Okay.
[02:03:28] Yeah.
[02:03:29] Well, hey, maybe there's some circular thing that kind of makes it all makes sense.
[02:03:38] You know, I don't know.
[02:03:39] No, no.
[02:03:41] Psychological warfare.
[02:03:42] I was going to, okay, we got to explain what it is.
[02:03:44] And again, back to the one.
[02:03:46] No, no, no, no, no, no, no.
[02:03:47] Some people there.
[02:03:48] Anyway, get to our sleep.
[02:03:49] Get eight hours.
[02:03:50] Sleepy at 12 hours.
[02:03:51] Sleep, I don't know.
[02:03:52] Sometimes you're in the mood or you're not in the mood to do whether it be a workout, whether it be a.
[02:03:55] Maintain the diet situation.
[02:03:57] Boom.
[02:03:58] Psychological warfare.
[02:03:59] Jockel.
[02:04:00] Telling you why you don't want to do these things that support your moment of weakness.
[02:04:05] Boom.
[02:04:06] Get through it.
[02:04:07] Easy money.
[02:04:08] Jockel's help.
[02:04:09] There you go.
[02:04:10] It's the code of my making really awesome things to hang on your wall.
[02:04:13] Go to flipsidecampus.com for that.
[02:04:15] I got a bunch of books to talk about about face hack worth leadership strategy and tactics.
[02:04:20] Field manual.
[02:04:21] We got the code, the evaluation, the protocols.
[02:04:24] We got discipline.
[02:04:25] It was freedom.
[02:04:26] Field manual brand new version.
[02:04:27] People are asking what's the difference?
[02:04:28] There's like 40 more pages, 35, 40 more pages of words in there.
[02:04:35] Way the warrior kid.
[02:04:37] The field manual also out sitting right here on the desk.
[02:04:41] These are the first batch.
[02:04:43] These are like legit first edition.
[02:04:45] So you can check that book out.
[02:04:49] Get it for your kids.
[02:04:50] Get it for kids that you know to get them on the path.
[02:04:53] Warrior kid one two and three.
[02:04:54] Mikey in the dragons.
[02:04:55] Mikey in the dragons.
[02:04:56] Recently selected as a teacher's pick.
[02:04:59] So thanks to all the teachers out there that picked it.
[02:05:02] And thanks for the teachers out there.
[02:05:04] It said it's the best children's book that they've ever read.
[02:05:07] A lot of those teachers appreciate it.
[02:05:09] And then finally extreme ownership of the decademy leadership.
[02:05:12] The original books that I wrote with my brother, Nathan Babin.
[02:05:16] Also we have National Unfront Leadership Consultancy where we solve problems through leadership.
[02:05:21] We got EF Online.
[02:05:23] EF Online.com.
[02:05:24] If you want to ask me a question.
[02:05:25] You want to ask Dave a question.
[02:05:27] You want to ask Dave a question.
[02:05:28] You want to ask any of the echelon front instructors a question.
[02:05:31] Go to EF Online.com.
[02:05:32] We will be there.
[02:05:34] We will be there to answer your question.
[02:05:36] You don't have to submit it through Twitter.
[02:05:38] And hope that I see it.
[02:05:40] You can go on there and ask it.
[02:05:42] So go to EF Online.com for that.
[02:05:45] We have the Muster which is a live event.
[02:05:48] Leadership training December third and fourth.
[02:05:52] If you want to come to it go to extremotownership.com for details.
[02:05:56] Every gig we've done has sold out.
[02:05:59] This is going to sell out too.
[02:06:00] We got compressed space.
[02:06:02] Well, not compressed space.
[02:06:03] We got compressed seats in big space because of social distancing.
[02:06:07] So there's less tickets to sell.
[02:06:08] So it's going to sell out early.
[02:06:10] So be advised on that.
[02:06:13] Go to extremotorship.com for details.
[02:06:15] EF Overwatch.com.
[02:06:17] If you need leaders in your organization that have the experience,
[02:06:20] the military experience and leadership that we talk about.
[02:06:23] That understand the principles we talk about.
[02:06:25] Go to EF Overwatch.com.
[02:06:28] To find those leaders.
[02:06:30] And if you want to help service members.
[02:06:34] You want to help active duty.
[02:06:36] You want to help retired.
[02:06:37] You want to help their families.
[02:06:39] Gold star families.
[02:06:41] Then check out america's mighty warriors dot org.
[02:06:46] That is Mark Lee's mom's charity organization.
[02:06:50] Mamla Lee.
[02:06:51] She's out there helping our veterans.
[02:06:55] And if you are into.
[02:07:00] If you want to torture yourself.
[02:07:05] And you want more of my weary summer words.
[02:07:10] Or you need more of echoes sort of viable sermons of which there were plenty of today.
[02:07:19] Or you can't wait to hear just a few more of Dave's jubilant judgments.
[02:07:27] Then you can find us on the inner webs on Twitter on Instagram,
[02:07:31] which according to echo Charles should only be known as the Graham.
[02:07:36] And on Facebook Dave is at David R. Burke.
[02:07:39] Echo is at echo Charles and I am at joklin Lincoln.
[02:07:42] Once again, thanks to General Bruce Clark and Colonel David Hacworth.
[02:07:45] For continuing to serve our great nation with the lessons you have passed on to us.
[02:07:50] And thanks to all the military troops out there.
[02:07:53] On the sea air and land.
[02:07:56] That maintain vigilance at all times for our security.
[02:08:00] And thanks to the police and law enforcement firefighters,
[02:08:03] Paramedics, EMTs, dispatchers, correctional officers, board of patrol,
[02:08:07] Secret Service and all the other first responders who also remain vigilant to keep us safe.
[02:08:12] Here at home and to everyone out there.
[02:08:16] Once again, from General Bruce C. Clark, quote,
[02:08:22] The attack is the key to success.
[02:08:26] The defense is merely a temporary expedient to conserve forces for an attack elsewhere.
[02:08:32] Or to prepare for an attack at a future date and quote.
[02:08:40] You know what to do. Go out on the attack.
[02:08:45] And until next time, this is Dave, Heneco and Jokko.
[02:08:51] Out.