Jocko Podcast 249: "About Face" is The Benchmark for Leadership. Including Foreword by Jocko

2020-10-01T21:31:48Z

Join the conversation on Twitter/Instagram: @jockowillink @echocharles 0:00:00 - Opening. Jocko's foundations of leadership. The Foreword for the new release of "About Face". 0:40:43 - Discussion 0:46:43 - Lessons from Hackworth still applicable today. 1:20:08 - Final thoughts and take-aways. 1:27:42 - How to stay on THE PATH. JOCKO STORE Apparel: https://www.jockostore.com/collections/men Jocko Fuel: https://originmaine.com/nutrition Origin Jeans and Clothes: https://originmaine.com/durable-goods/ Origin Gis: https://originmaine.com/bjj-mma-fit/ 1:58:40 - Closing gratitude.

AI summary of episode

Like, it's not like a little deer, like, I don't like, you know, when you watch, like, you know, when you watch like, bam, be these deer's, they're just so, so, like, fragile these things in and out. And you can kind of, especially if you just know the general story where you open up wherever and you're like, okay, and you can get the, you know, like some of them, you're like, all shoot, I shouldn't read this part because not only will it might, it might not make sense, but you know, you kind of should read the beginning first. It's just, like, you know, like, when you think of like, who, you know, these people, whatever kids, they're like, And I feel like in this Elk scenario too, where, man, it's kind of like if you get one, that's like, that's like a big deal, you know? So if when you're consuming your energy drink of death, like saying all this stuff like Dang bro, like I don't even know because I used to like energy drinks. You know how like people like when you get when you get, um, like, trainers, they'll be like, hey, you need to start with your core. Can you imagine those words like high ground starting to really like come, like seeing it and seeing like, oh, that's cover, that's important. Like, you know, when you grab a lizard or just a small animal, like, how strong a small animal is, compared to a human right for, like, pound for pound. You know, like let the, you'll tell a story and then the, like the story, the significance of stories like the lesson. It was called like a lot of people make this kind of video like if energy drink, like to advertise is where honest. But in real life, like, a wild animal, like, a elk, for example, but when you go up to it, you're like, brother, that thing is for us. yeah, if you approach the book that it is this, it is, I'm reading this book for the lesson like as it applies to me today, you know, so you can kind of look to it. You know, whenever I read things like this, you know, or not whenever, but sometimes I just kind of get curious. Would you like to do a blur for the back, meaning a little quote in the back of the book saying, you know, something this is a great book. But you start to get, I mean, I haven't been right up to one a while to one, but as you kind of can see them close to you, like, man, the things kind of intimidating just how like capable it is. You know, like, so these elk's like, they get kind of big. And while I didn't know what I didn't know, I could sense there was a gap between what we learned about tactics and what I truly needed to know in order to effectively lead men into combat. It's not like a book where you've got to read 20 pages to be like, get something out of it. You know, like, I'll do this thing where you kind of, kind of go back in time in a way. You know, compared to what, the average elk can sprint up a hill, like it's nothing, like it's nothing. And, you know, your favorite book, all this stuff, and then to think back then now, yeah, and a few years, I'm going to be writing the forward to a rerelease of this book right here. Like it feels like almost like a shariot. So to explain this little bit, you know, a tank has like the big gun that you think of a tank. You know, like, you don't realize that, you see it on a YouTube video, or something like that. And so someone started pulling the string and doing the research and trying to figure out where this was all coming from, why are they're selling this book that hasn't sold in, you know, in 30 years or close to 40 years, 35 years, it hasn't, you know, hasn't been a huge seller. And you know, how like when you send a picture, somebody will say, delivered, you know, didn't say delivered. So the book, the original book came out in 1989, so it started to sell and it actually started to sell a lot like a lot of copies, which doesn't happen.

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Episode transcript

[00:00:00] This is Jockel Podcast number 249 with echo Charles and me, Jockel Willink.
[00:00:06] Good evening, I go. Good evening.
[00:00:12] One seal, KIA is inbound to Camp Romadi.
[00:00:19] KIA killed an action.
[00:00:24] When the call came over the radio from the Army Company commander who was supporting my seals in the field, I felt instantly nauseous.
[00:00:33] I wanted to throw up.
[00:00:37] But I knew I had to remain calm.
[00:00:40] I had to keep my emotions in check as the commander of Seal Team 3 Tasking Abruiser.
[00:00:45] I knew the whole tactical operation center and my entire task unit would be watching my reaction to this.
[00:00:53] So I took a breath and did my best to seem composed and in control.
[00:01:01] Beyond that, I wasn't quite sure how to react or what to say or what to do.
[00:01:09] This seal soon reported as Mark Allen Lee, the first seal killed an Iraq.
[00:01:17] You shot and killed while assaulting a building in South Central Romadi on August 2, 2006.
[00:01:29] Grahiro.
[00:01:33] Young and full of love and life and spirit and now in an instant.
[00:01:41] Gone.
[00:01:48] Seals had been fighting in Iraq for more than three years at this point.
[00:01:53] There had been some casualties but no seals had been killed.
[00:01:59] And no seal from Seal Team 3, which was formed in 1983, had ever been killed in action.
[00:02:04] While other seals from other teams had been lost in Afghanistan, no one above me in the immediate chain of command had ever been in sustained intense combat, much less suffered their men being killed.
[00:02:20] Even though we had drilled the tactical mechanics of how to react when a man was lost, we had never trained for how to handle death from a leadership perspective.
[00:02:34] No one had ever even discussed it with me.
[00:02:38] There was no guidance from my senior officers on the matter.
[00:02:42] I had to get my guidance from somewhere else.
[00:02:46] So I turned to a man who had offered me so much valuable advice about war and about leadership.
[00:02:56] I turned to Colonel David Hackworth and his book About Face.
[00:03:02] In its well-worn pages, I found the council I needed. The fact is, generally, there's no time out for mourning on the battlefield.
[00:03:16] But it's really no different than the father of ten who comes home to find his house on fire with all of his kids sleeping inside.
[00:03:23] He doesn't stop and cry over the first child he finds dead to do so would be to sign a death warrant for the other nine.
[00:03:35] A commanding officer is often in the same situation.
[00:03:39] To do anything, but continue on would be complete dereliction of duty and in the larger picture could possibly lead to even worse carnage among his troops.
[00:03:47] So you do what you have to do and only later when things settle down do you allow yourself to grieve and quote.
[00:03:58] Like I had many times before, I followed the guidance of Colonel Hackworth.
[00:04:06] The battle of Ramadi was not going to stop.
[00:04:10] There were still missions that needed to be conducted. Still enemy that needed to be killed.
[00:04:14] I told the task unit that we would do the only thing we could do the only thing we should do and the only thing Mark would want us to do.
[00:04:24] Put on our gear, lock and load our weapons and go back to work.
[00:04:31] Do our duty.
[00:04:36] The men understood this seemingly harsh course of action.
[00:04:40] And that was exactly what we did.
[00:04:45] Everyone accepted this direction for me, not because of my rank or my position, but because they knew something fundamental about me that despite my hardened demeanor and my measured emotions, they knew I cared about them more than anything else in the world.
[00:05:01] This feeling came to me instinctively, but it had been reinforced over and over again by what I had read in the pages of about face.
[00:05:14] Colonel Hackworth's commitment to his men was one of the primary reasons I related to his book.
[00:05:22] He wrote quote, the thing was, you had to look after your soldiers.
[00:05:27] It was true that a commanding officer's first priority was the mission, but a conflicting requirement was the welfare of the men.
[00:05:36] It was true that the whole purpose of the military establishment was to get a do-foot eyeball to eyeball with the enemy.
[00:05:43] And it was equally true that the troops were the ones who paid the price in blood for an objective secured.
[00:05:50] These facts made and make an infantry commanding officer a hanging judge.
[00:05:57] He has incredible power over the lives and deaths not only of a faceless enemy, but of his men.
[00:06:05] Sometimes that power causes a leader to become hardened.
[00:06:10] He stopped seeing his troops as human beings.
[00:06:13] They become faceless assets to him.
[00:06:15] He becomes afraid to get close or feel.
[00:06:17] Instead constructing a concrete barrier in his head to keep out the guilt and pain of lives lost at his behest.
[00:06:26] In the process, he forgets that though he may give the orders, it is the soldier who makes them happen.
[00:06:34] Or doesn't.
[00:06:37] He forgets that if you want 100% from a trooper, you have to give him 200% as a commander.
[00:06:43] End quote.
[00:06:47] That was hackwords standard.
[00:06:50] You had to give 200% to your men.
[00:06:53] You had to give them everything you had.
[00:06:56] I strived for that standard my whole career.
[00:07:01] I had spent my entire adult life in the sealed teams.
[00:07:05] Like Colonel Hackworth, I'd come up through the ranks,
[00:07:07] spending my first eight years as an enlisted seal before eventually being selected for a commissioning program,
[00:07:14] and becoming a seal officer.
[00:07:17] I worked hard.
[00:07:19] But that was in the 1990s.
[00:07:22] There was no war to fight, so we trained and trained and trained even more.
[00:07:27] When we deployed around the globe, we trained other country's troops, but we didn't fight.
[00:07:32] September 11th, 2001 changed all that.
[00:07:38] The war kicked off in Afghanistan in 2001, and by 2003, the focus had shifted to Iraq.
[00:07:45] My first combat deployment was as a seal, puttune commander in Baghdad,
[00:07:51] from the autumn of 2003 into the spring of 2004.
[00:07:55] My puttune conducted dynamic direct action missions in capture killed scores of enemy personnel.
[00:07:59] We were also ambushed a few times in shot at with RPGs and machine guns.
[00:08:06] We returned fire at suspected enemy positions, or at muzzle flashes we saw in darkened alleyways,
[00:08:12] windows, or doorways.
[00:08:15] During that deployment, only one seal on patrol with me was wounded.
[00:08:20] Shot in the head.
[00:08:22] Luckily, it was just a ricochet that had enough energy to puncture his skin,
[00:08:25] but not enough to puncture his skull. It left nothing but a minor wound.
[00:08:31] In the end, Baghdad felt more like an exciting adventure for me and my puttune than a war.
[00:08:38] I returned from that deployment feeling as if we had done our share.
[00:08:42] I even felt some arrogance starting to creep into my head as if we had tamed a war.
[00:08:48] But that arrogance was kept in check by a reminder that lived in another corner of my mind.
[00:08:53] Yes, we had done our job. Yes, we had executed our missions. Yes, we had been to war.
[00:09:01] But it was not the same as the wars I had read about over the years.
[00:09:06] Being a seal and a professional military man, I had read many books about war.
[00:09:12] Those books reminded me that what we had been through in Baghdad was no Omaha Beach or Guadalcanal.
[00:09:18] It wasn't the chosen reservoir or the Inchon landing.
[00:09:23] It was no eyedring valley or battle of Way City.
[00:09:27] Nothing I experienced on my first deployment to Iraq was even close to the level of combat detail in the books I had read.
[00:09:34] Of course, technically, what I had been through was classified as war.
[00:09:39] But for my seal puttune Baghdad in 2003 and 2004 conducting short and simple operations with a huge tactical advantage over a disorganized and untrained enemy, our experience was as forgiving and benign as war could be.
[00:09:57] I was lucky.
[00:09:59] But my next deployment to the capital city of Alambar province, a city known as Rhear Ramadi was different.
[00:10:09] When we arrived in the spring of 2006, it was a complete war zone.
[00:10:15] Vehicles mangled by roadside bombs littered the streets. Many buildings were reduced to rubble and almost every building was pocket marked with machine gun bullet holes.
[00:10:25] But the clearest indicator of the level of violence in Ramadi was the casualties.
[00:10:32] Every day American soldiers or Marines were wounded or killed.
[00:10:38] Every single day.
[00:10:42] I had spent almost 16 years training and preparing for this deployment to Ramadi.
[00:10:48] First, I had completed the basic seal training course known as Buds or basic underwater demolition seal training.
[00:10:56] But that training was simply a weeding out process to get rid of the men who didn't really want to be there.
[00:11:02] Almost no tactical lessons are learned there other than to suffer in silence.
[00:11:07] After Buds, I went through seal tactical training or STT which later became known as SKUT or the seal qualification training.
[00:11:18] During that training, I began to learn the individual tactical skills I needed to perform my duties as a seal.
[00:11:26] Once I completed that training, I was assigned to a seal platoon where my real learning began.
[00:11:32] I finally became part of a team where working together was the only way to achieve mission success.
[00:11:40] We learned how to fire maneuver. We learned the fundamental tactics of gun fighting.
[00:11:44] We learned how to conduct ambushes and raids and assaults on buildings and oil platforms and ships at sea.
[00:11:53] Surprisingly, unlike in the army or the Marine Corps, where there are written instructions on how to do almost anything.
[00:11:58] In the seal teams, most of what we learned was not taught from a book or a field manual.
[00:12:04] It was passed down by word of mouth just as it had been for decades, by more experienced platoon members and the seal instructor Cadre.
[00:12:13] I was lucky enough to learn from some of the older Vietnam era seals.
[00:12:18] But by that time, the early 90s, most of the Vietnam veterans were gone and with them almost all the real world combat experience was gone as well.
[00:12:30] So while the training was good, there were some disconnect between the simulated training combat we conducted and what war was actually like.
[00:12:39] In the 12 years prior to my deployment to Baghdad, I had done multiple training cycles and deployments and had even served as an instructor Cadre myself teaching the skills I had learned.
[00:12:52] All those years of experience prepared me as well as they could have for my deployment as a platoon commander to Baghdad.
[00:12:59] Upon my return to America after that deployment, I did another training cycle to prepare to deploy back to Iraq.
[00:13:04] This time to Ramadi in charge of two seal platoons that made up task unit bruiser.
[00:13:11] Surprisingly, during all those years of training, I had received a very little leadership instruction.
[00:13:19] There was no seal doctrine about leadership.
[00:13:23] We attended no classes on the subject.
[00:13:26] Nor did we follow any specific leadership protocol.
[00:13:28] We were simply expected to learn it through OJT on the job training, passed on by word of mouth the same way we acquired our bulk of tactical knowledge.
[00:13:40] We also learned very little about war beyond straightforward tactical knowledge, how to shoot, move and communicate inside a seal platoon.
[00:13:48] Sure, we learned the mechanics of battlefield maneuvers, but we didn't talk about fear and stress.
[00:14:00] We didn't learn about the psychological impact of combat or the emotional shock of the horrors of war.
[00:14:06] No one counseled me on the human capacity for evil or the human capacity for good.
[00:14:11] We talked about human nature, which is revealed in its rost form on the battlefield.
[00:14:18] And while I didn't know what I didn't know, I could sense there was a gap between what we learned about tactics and what I truly needed to know in order to effectively lead men into combat.
[00:14:30] I tried to close that gap in knowledge by reading.
[00:14:34] I read everything I could get my hands on about war.
[00:14:37] But I didn't concentrate on the broad strategic and political aspects of war.
[00:14:43] Sure, I studied why heads of states made decisions.
[00:14:47] I read about presidents and prime ministers and forestar generals and admirals.
[00:14:52] But I focused most intently on first person accounts.
[00:14:56] The actual experiences of those frontline men who did the fighting, then the junior and non-commissioned officers who led them.
[00:15:03] The men storming the beaches, assaulting enemy machine gunnets, and patrolling through jungles, laced with booby traps.
[00:15:13] What they did, how they did it, what they felt, I read and read and read.
[00:15:20] The authors of these books became my teachers.
[00:15:23] At some point, and I can't remember exactly when it was, I stumbled upon a book that changed the way I thought about war and leadership and life.
[00:15:34] In fact, it changed the way I thought about everything.
[00:15:38] That book was about face by David Hackworth, a retired Colonel who had joined the Army just after World War II, was battlefield commissioned to in Korea, serve multiple tours in Vietnam,
[00:15:49] and who became one of the most highly decorated soldiers of all time.
[00:15:55] By the time he retired, he was a master tactician.
[00:15:59] He understood battlefield terrain. He knew how to maneuver combat elements on the battlefield, but more important than any of those accolades, awards and skills.
[00:16:09] Colonel David Hackworth knew people, and he knew how to lead.
[00:16:14] When I take stock of everything that I've learned in my life about war, about strategy and tactics, about human nature, and about leadership, it is Colonel Hackworth's book that is the clear wellspring for so much of that knowledge.
[00:16:30] And of all the warriors, heroes, and leaders who I have known and who have mentored me over the years, it is this man, Colonel David Hackworth, a man who I've never met, that provided me with the most guidance and was always there to coach, train, mentor me through the words he wrote in about face.
[00:16:51] I read this book at every opportunity during the Battle of Ramadi.
[00:16:56] In its pages, I found the instruction I needed. It was next to my cot in camp, and if I wasn't in the field, the end of every day was spent learning from this book.
[00:17:10] I could open the book to any section, read a few pages and relate what I read to what I was living, leadership in the harshest environment.
[00:17:18] Without question, my leadership style, my tactical knowledge, the decisions I've made, and my view of the world has been shaped through the lens of this book.
[00:17:29] Colonel Hackworth did not only affect my life and career in the military.
[00:17:35] After leaving the Navy, I started a leadership consulting company.
[00:17:39] I've authored many books of my own, speak regularly about leadership, have a popular leadership podcast, and continue to teach leadership.
[00:17:49] Let there be no doubt. Everything I've written and all the leadership lessons I espouse are all rooted in about face.
[00:17:59] What makes that fact even more interesting is that about face is not meant to be a leadership book.
[00:18:06] It was not written for the purpose of teaching leadership. It is an autobiography. It simply tells the story of Colonel Hackworth's life and experiences.
[00:18:16] But wrapped in that story and those experiences is a complete manifesto on leadership and human nature.
[00:18:25] But even with all those powerful lessons to teach, Colonel Hackworth was not always the easiest mentor to follow.
[00:18:31] When I first started to speak of him to fellow service members, he was not viewed in a universally positive way.
[00:18:40] In the Navy, among many senior officers that I encountered, Colonel Hackworth was viewed with a strong sense of disdain.
[00:18:48] In 1996, Hackworth wrote an article about then chief of naval operations Admiral Jay Borda,
[00:18:55] charging the Admiral with wearing a metal on his uniform that he did not rate.
[00:19:01] A Navy combination metal with the combat distinguishing device also known as the combat V.
[00:19:07] The combat V is awarded only when there is direct combat with the enemy.
[00:19:12] While Admiral Borda did serve honorably aboard a US Navy warship during the Vietnam War, he was never in direct combat.
[00:19:20] When Admiral Borda committed suicide in the aftermath of the investigation,
[00:19:26] some blamed Colonel Hackworth for the Admiral's death.
[00:19:30] While I understood the grief around the Admiral's death, I also saw Hackworth's perspective.
[00:19:37] For Colonel Hackworth, the combat infantrymen was sacred.
[00:19:42] He had watched men on the front line serve and sacrificed life and limb in two wars.
[00:19:49] To Colonel Hackworth, the Admiral wearing an award he did not merit was an affront to every man
[00:19:56] that had ever seen close combat with the enemy.
[00:20:00] Hackworth could not and would not let that stand.
[00:20:04] But the fallout from the article, Colonel Hackworth wrote,
[00:20:08] that they small tribe of senior naval officers with a strong aversion to Hackworth and his perspectives.
[00:20:16] Some army leadership also dislike Hackworth and disparage him when I brought up his name.
[00:20:23] While they wouldn't quite call him a turncoat, some army soldiers viewed the end of Hackworth's career in the service
[00:20:30] and his subsequent participation in the anti-nuclear movement as slap in the face of the US Army,
[00:20:35] the US military and America.
[00:20:39] His parting shot wall on active duty was an interview with ABC News correspondent Howard Tucker for the show,
[00:20:47] Issues and Answers, in which Colonel Hackworth skewered much of the civilian military leadership,
[00:20:53] their understanding of strategy and tactics, and their gross misconduct of the war.
[00:20:58] He bluntly put the blood of American servicemen on the senior leader's hands,
[00:21:03] quote,
[00:21:04] I don't feel that too many division commanders or even separate brigade commanders really understood the name of the game.
[00:21:12] He said,
[00:21:14] Did this mean more US casualties?
[00:21:18] This misunderstanding of the name of the game is you put it, Mr. Tucker asked,
[00:21:22] Absolutely,
[00:21:24] Absolutely, Hackworth responded.
[00:21:27] It is easy for many to see this as in subordination.
[00:21:30] To view Hackworth as a rebellious mutinier trying to denigrate the military system.
[00:21:36] But I saw something different.
[00:21:39] I saw a man who had dedicated his entire life to the service of his country and to his army,
[00:21:45] a man who cared deeply about the men in his charge and every man who wore the cloth of the nation.
[00:21:50] A man who had seen too many of those men fed into the meat grinder that was the war in Vietnam.
[00:21:55] And for what?
[00:21:56] But he failed to see any progress in the Vietnam war and he failed to see any way to achieve victory,
[00:22:03] as long as the military continued with the same ineffective strategies and tactics.
[00:22:08] He could not stand to watch the suffering and needless death anymore.
[00:22:15] It wasn't at all that he hated the army, the military or the country.
[00:22:20] It was that he loved them all too much.
[00:22:22] So he spoke the truth.
[00:22:28] But the sting of this interview and of his attitude after he was shuffled out of the army left the mark.
[00:22:34] A mark of resentment that was passed on to the army and the military and a resentment that was alive and well
[00:22:40] when I discovered Hackworth and about face.
[00:22:43] So it was not always a pleasant task to carry the flag and be a follower of Hackworth.
[00:22:48] Fortunately, Hackworth's lessons stand the test of time against any naysayer and this book is absolutely filled with his lessons.
[00:22:59] But the lessons are not only about war.
[00:23:03] While the subtitle of about faces, the Odyssey of an American warrior,
[00:23:09] it could also be aptly subtitled, comprehensive lessons in leadership,
[00:23:14] battlefield tactics, strategy, command and control, and the essence of human nature.
[00:23:22] Well, it might seem impossible that any book could contain so much knowledge about face does just that.
[00:23:29] Every page is dense with lessons that provide guidance on leadership, combat, human interaction and just about every other aspect of life.
[00:23:39] And I followed that guidance.
[00:23:41] In fact, I often say that much of what I learned and teach is a leader.
[00:23:47] I stole from Colonel Hackworth.
[00:23:50] When Hackworth took over Fox company in Korea, he immediately changed its name from Fox company to fighter company.
[00:23:59] Quote, Fox company was dead. I told them, from this moment on, we were fighter.
[00:24:05] The troops got a charge out of it and quote.
[00:24:07] He did the same thing as a battalion commander in Vietnam.
[00:24:11] When he took command of the 430 night battalion, it had no unit identity.
[00:24:16] He promptly changed its name to the hardcore and began to call the troops, Rakondos.
[00:24:24] I followed his example.
[00:24:26] When I became a task unit commander at Seel Team 3 in the spring of 2005,
[00:24:30] my task unit was assigned the generic title Bravo, a name simply taken from the phonetic alphabet to designate us as the second of three task units at Seel Team 3.
[00:24:44] The other two being Alpha and Charlie.
[00:24:47] In our first meeting as a task unit, I let everyone know that we were no longer task unit Bravo.
[00:24:53] We were task unit bruiser.
[00:24:56] I saw faces change almost before my eyes as we began to take on the personality of our namesake.
[00:25:04] Like Colonel Hacworth had taught me, the troops got a charge out of it.
[00:25:09] I also knew that Colonel Hacworth had a methodology around building relationships.
[00:25:14] He knew that too much familiarity out of the gate with the troops could cause problems in the chain of command.
[00:25:19] He ensured that the first impression he made with new men was that the mission and the business of soldiering and leading was paramount.
[00:25:28] So he showed no signs of friendliness when he first met his troops.
[00:25:33] Quote, for the first month I was with the unit I refused to crack a smile.
[00:25:38] Said Hacworth of joining his battalion in Vietnam.
[00:25:41] I did the same thing with task unit bruiser.
[00:25:44] There were no smiles for me when we first formed up.
[00:25:47] The men knew from the beginning that the business of war came first.
[00:25:52] These were some of the, these were some of the countless leadership techniques I took from Colonel Hacworth.
[00:26:00] Hacworth was also a champion of discipline. He kept his uniform squared away and wore a high and tight haircut.
[00:26:07] I always kept my dress uniforms pristine and my hair inspection ready.
[00:26:11] Colonel Hacworth was an avid supporter of snipers.
[00:26:14] He invested heavily in them in his battalion in Vietnam and understood their impact.
[00:26:20] I did the same thing in Ramadi utilizing our seal snipers to flip the script and turn my troops into the hunters.
[00:26:27] He said to the hunted.
[00:26:29] I also followed his lead when it came to training troops.
[00:26:34] Quote, I wanted each unit trained so well that a PFC could take a platoon and run it.
[00:26:38] Roke Colonel Hacworth about training. I strive for the same goal and I often had my junior men run training operations.
[00:26:47] He also wrote, quote, I'd have one platoon aggress against another and then reverse them until they were masters of both attack and defense procedures.
[00:26:58] End quote.
[00:27:00] In the seal teams, we called this force on force training.
[00:27:03] And because of Hacworth, I made that type of training paramount for my troops.
[00:27:10] In my final years in the seal teams, I codified the essential elements of what I'd learned into what I ended up calling the laws of combat.
[00:27:19] Cover and move simple, prioritize, and execute, and decentralized command.
[00:27:24] Those four laws became part of the seal leadership doctrine.
[00:27:28] They also became the basis of the principles I teach to leaders in business and other organizations around the world.
[00:27:35] Those principles are all rooted in lessons I learned from about face.
[00:27:41] The first law of combat is covered and moved. In a gunfight, this means one person or squad or platoon shooting at the enemy to keep the enemies heads down, which is known as suppressive fire, so the other person or squad or platoon can maneuver.
[00:27:54] Hacworth sites this principle again and again with statements like, quote, while the others laid down a good base of fire or tying down the enemy while providing a base of fire.
[00:28:07] And one man providing covering fires, the other edge close enough to flip in a frag.
[00:28:12] Statements like that repeated throughout about face made me realize that the number one law of combat was that people have to cover and move for one another.
[00:28:20] To be alone on the battlefield was to die alone.
[00:28:25] But this law does not only apply to the battlefield, it applies to any team or organization.
[00:28:32] Teams have to work together to support one another. Cover and move means teamwork and it is critical for the success of any team.
[00:28:40] The second law of combat is simple.
[00:28:43] Plans must be simple and straightforward so that every person on the team understands the plan and knows how to execute it.
[00:28:51] Simple plans will also hold up under the chaos and stress of combat. Complex plans will fall apart.
[00:28:59] Colonel Hacworth believed in keeping things simple while planning a mission to destroy an enemy supply depot that consisted of caves.
[00:29:06] The deep behind enemy lines that heavy artillery and air power failed to eliminate. Colonel Hacworth new keeping things simple was a necessity.
[00:29:16] During an aerial recon, I found the simplest way to make the raid. We'd wait up the center of that creek. It would cover any noise and simplify navigation and quote.
[00:29:27] Not only do plans need to be simple, but communication needs to be simple as well.
[00:29:31] If a leader gives direction in complicated and convoluted language, the direction will not be understood. Simple clear concise language is required so team members understand.
[00:29:44] Colonel Hacworth knew this.
[00:29:47] While preparing to lead an operation in a Vietnam's mountainous Highland terrain, he knew it would be disastrous for his mandatory too much gear and equipment.
[00:29:55] So we let the men know what was most important.
[00:29:59] Quote. The single order was a simple one. Lighten up. End quote. Keeping things simple is an age old military maximum that applies to any organization in any arena.
[00:30:13] Colonel Hacworth knew this to be the truth. Keep it simple.
[00:30:18] The third law of combat is prioritizing execute. There will be multiple problems on the battlefield.
[00:30:27] If a leader tries to solve all those problems at once, his resources will be spread to thin and he will fail at solving any of them.
[00:30:36] So a leader has to prioritize what the biggest problem is and then execute on solving that problem first before moving on to the next biggest problem.
[00:30:45] One of the most obvious examples of this is tending to wounded men.
[00:30:50] As Colonel Hacworth advises Quote in a hot firefight, a rifle platoon can take 10 casualties before you can cry medic.
[00:31:00] And if you multiply by 10, the one rifleman who falls out to look after his buddy suddenly you've lost the guts of the platoon's firepower.
[00:31:09] A leader cannot give the enemy the initiative by allowing his unit to become ineffective as a result of care for the wounded becoming the first priority.
[00:31:18] Any other course carried not only the risk of failure to accomplish the mission, but also the loss of a hell of a lot more men than necessary and to quote.
[00:31:31] The idea of prioritizing execute does not only apply to the battlefield. It also applies to business and life.
[00:31:38] Taking on too many projects or trying to multitask across a wide number of undertaking simultaneously will result in failure.
[00:31:48] Leaders cannot allow that to happen instead a leader must do as Colonel Hacworth did prior to his end execute.
[00:31:58] The last law of combat is decentralized command allowing subordinate leaders to lead.
[00:32:03] This is fundamental to the success of any military unit or team.
[00:32:08] Subordinate leaders need to understand the mission, the goal, the end state, the parameters they are allowed to work within.
[00:32:14] What the overall intent of the mission is and most important why they are doing what they are doing.
[00:32:21] Then they have to be given the authority and the autonomy to go and execute.
[00:32:26] A failure to work with this mentality is disastrous.
[00:32:29] As Hacworth explains in about face quote, in this the third year of the war, whether or not to hold a pimple of a hill became an issue for the eight th Army, the Pentagon and sometimes the president.
[00:32:43] The only problem was that while those guys hemmed and hauled over weathered with draw, reinforced down at the cutting edge American soldiers died, it would become known as centralization and quote.
[00:33:00] The mission does not work, not on the battlefield, not in business, not in life, leaders cannot hold the reins of command to tight. Leaders have to let their people lead.
[00:33:13] These were not the only lessons I learned from Colonel Hacworth.
[00:33:19] He taught me about discipline and fear, building relationships, playing the game, when to break the rules the list goes on and on.
[00:33:27] Colonel Hacworth also taught me about things that I shouldn't do from areas where he fell short.
[00:33:33] Sometimes he lost his temper or let his ego drive his actions. Sometimes he lashed out at people when he should have kept his mouth shut.
[00:33:41] Sometimes he broke rules that he shouldn't have broken.
[00:33:44] His family life while he was on active duty was less than ideal.
[00:33:48] But even when Colonel Hacworth wasn't right, he was humble and honest about it, which meant I could still learn from him.
[00:33:55] Even in his mistakes, he mentored me.
[00:33:59] Over time, although I knew he wasn't perfect, I put Colonel Hacworth on a pedestal.
[00:34:06] But as he taught me, I was always questioning both myself and others.
[00:34:13] I didn't want to fall victim to what he said in about face was among the biggest mistakes of the war, which was that quote.
[00:34:19] Politicians only listened to these generals and these generals only listened to themselves and quote.
[00:34:26] So I always wondered what the people who actually knew and worked with Colonel Hacworth really thought of him.
[00:34:33] I was lucky to be able to have that question answered when I had the honor of interviewing retired Brigadier General James H.
[00:34:41] Mucayama for an episode of my podcast. General Mucayama had an incredible career. One of the highlights of which was serving as a company commander for Colonel Hacworth in Vietnam.
[00:34:54] This was my chance to find out if Colonel Hacworth deserved the reverence and respect I felt for him.
[00:35:01] General Mucayama had been a young captain when Colonel Hacworth reported to Fort Lewis Washington as a new battalion commander.
[00:35:09] I asked the general if he knew who Colonel Hacworth was before he met him.
[00:35:15] General Mucayama replied, quote, of course, we all knew. Hac was a legend.
[00:35:22] Everybody knew who he was. He was Mr. Infantry and quote.
[00:35:28] I asked how everybody knew of Colonel Hacworth. General Mucayama explained, quote,
[00:35:34] it wasn't only his reputation, it was his appearance, his neck was the size of my waist, his hair was an eighth of an inch, razor sharp sides and all that.
[00:35:44] It was the way he carried himself. His philosophy was that you were either a dud or a stud and there was nothing in between.
[00:35:52] When he came to a unit and found some guys that weren't cutting it, they were gone, especially in combat and quote.
[00:36:00] General Mucayama also told me that Colonel Hacworth, quote, never did things for personal gain. He always did things for the unit and for the soldiers and quote.
[00:36:18] For the soldiers.
[00:36:21] It is that underlying theme that permeates about face and is that underlying theme that stuck with me as a leader.
[00:36:32] But people's strengths are often their weaknesses and perhaps doing things for the soldiers was Colonel Hacworth's undoing.
[00:36:42] In his interview with issues and answers, when Howard Tucker asked if he had become too emotionally involved in Vietnam, he responded, quote,
[00:36:53] one couldn't see the number of young studs die or be terribly wounded without becoming emotionally involved.
[00:36:59] I just have seen the American nation spend so much of its wonderful, great young men in this country.
[00:37:05] I've seen our national wealth being drained away. I see the nation being split apart and almost being split a sunder because of this war and I'm wondering to what end it is all going to lead and quote.
[00:37:22] From that emotional feeling about the cost of war came Colonel Hacworth's metaphorical about face.
[00:37:28] His turn away from the war away from the army and away from America.
[00:37:37] But he could not turn his back forever.
[00:37:41] His heart was too connected, his soul too caring.
[00:37:46] That's why Colonel David Hacworth wrote this book.
[00:37:49] And it's why he dedicated it to all the doughboys, the ground pounders, the grunts, the American infantrymen, past, present and especially future.
[00:38:06] Well, Hac, if I may be so presumptuous as to call you what your friends called you, your dedication has hit home and your lessons have not been forgotten.
[00:38:25] This book captures the lessons you learned in blood and passes them on.
[00:38:29] I used them on the battlefield with my seals as we served alongside soldiers and marines in fierce fighting during the battle of Ramadi.
[00:38:39] I passed them on to the next generation of seals when I ran training for seal platoons and troops deploying to Iraq and Afghanistan.
[00:38:48] I've talked about them at our service academies and I've shared them with leaders and future leaders at every level and in every branch of the military.
[00:38:57] You are service to the infantrymen carries on.
[00:39:03] But I will also tell you Hac that your impact is not stopped at your cherished infantrymen.
[00:39:10] Your leadership philosophies, strategies and tactics can be applied by any leader at any level in any situation.
[00:39:19] Just as you found when you applied them to the civilian world yourself and ran highly profitable and successful businesses.
[00:39:28] I've taught your principles to countless civilian leaders in every industry imaginable and have seen them applied over and over again with extraordinary outcomes.
[00:39:43] So, thank you, Hac.
[00:39:46] Thank you for writing this book.
[00:39:50] Thank you for being my mentor.
[00:39:53] Thank you for your service and sacrifice to our great nation.
[00:39:59] And even now that you have passed, thank you for taking care of your beloved soldiers.
[00:40:08] We will follow your lead.
[00:40:16] Joko Willink, January 2020.
[00:40:25] And that is the forward for a new release of the book about face, which is now available.
[00:40:40] And obviously, no, it's just an absolute honor to be able to write this thing.
[00:40:48] And it seems I know this word might be a little bit much. It seems a little bit surreal, you know, to have had this book had this huge impact on me.
[00:41:00] And then to be able to be able to write the forward is just to have my name on this book with, you know, this guy that has had this massive influence on me is crazy.
[00:41:12] Yeah, it's a real for me. And I mean, the, yeah, when you like what episode was that when you first covered that book.
[00:41:19] This is the first book we covered on the podcast episode two episode one of this podcast was, hey, this is what we're doing and answer some questions episode two is about face.
[00:41:30] And I knew that, I mean, when we started episode one, I already knew we were doing it. Why knew what we were doing next.
[00:41:35] So, and that's kind of what happened. So, what happened was, I first mentioned the book when I was on Tim Ferriss's podcast, which was the first interview I ever did.
[00:41:46] And no one had any idea who I would, why, why would they know who I was or whatever, but he asked that, yes, you know, he asks asks the same bulk of questions, most of the time.
[00:41:59] So, one of the questions that he asks is, what's the book that you've most gifted?
[00:42:06] And for me, there's not a, that's a very easy question because, you know, I don't first of all give many gifts.
[00:42:13] But second of all, I don't have ever given anyone any book ever. And it was this book. I gave actually, I gave a copy to Laf, I gave a copy to Cess Stone.
[00:42:22] That's who got this book. So, that was pretty easy. And so I kind of mentioned it there, you know, maybe some people got their interest peaked about the book then.
[00:42:33] But then we started the podcast, this podcast a couple months later. And this was the first book we covered. And then, of course, I refer to it all the time, not only on this podcast, but you know, someone else will ask me that question.
[00:42:46] So, I said, I'm going to ask a question, what's the, what's the, what's the, what's the, what's the, what's the book, yeah, and so through all this, through all these mentions of the book and talking about the book, it started to sell.
[00:42:59] So the book, the original book came out in 1989, so it started to sell and it actually started to sell a lot like a lot of copies, which doesn't happen.
[00:43:08] There's very few books that basically get brought back from the dead, right, when a book's over, it's over and it's outdated and moving on to the next book. So it's very seldom that they have, and there's some name for it. I don't know, in the publishing world.
[00:43:21] There's a name for, for what happens with a book basically rises from the dead. And so the publishers, you know, having to reprint these books and they're kind, they're stoked obviously, because they're just making money now.
[00:43:33] And someone in their department, you know, in whatever they have a department, it's like archived books or, so there's some name for these type of old books, if they come back.
[00:43:45] And so someone started pulling the string and doing the research and trying to figure out where this was all coming from, why are they're selling this book that hasn't sold in, you know, in 30 years or close to 40 years, 35 years, it hasn't, you know, hasn't been a huge seller.
[00:43:59] It was a New York Times best seller when it came out, but, you know, you get, that doesn't normally happen that they come back. So they pulled the string on it and investigated, and eventually found me and said, hey, you know, we're, we're going to re-assure this book. Would you like to do a blur for the back, meaning a little quote in the back of the book saying, you know, something this is a great book.
[00:44:18] And me being, give me an instance, I'm going to try and take a mile. I said, never mind a blur by said, I'll write a full forward for this thing. And they were all stoked about it. And so, so here it is. The book is out, the new version of about face by Colonel David Hackworth, forward by Jocca Willing. That's me.
[00:44:42] That's crazy. Yeah, that is. You know, like, I'll do this thing where you kind of, kind of go back in time in a way. It's not like remembering a certain time. It's not just remembering, but it's remembering. And then also remembering your mindset and how you were thinking and what you're kind of feeling generally in that time frame, you know, kind of think.
[00:45:02] Your values and all this, you kind of put yourself in that exact mindset as you were back then, right? So it's like one of these things where you think back to episode two, one, whenever you'd be for that and how it was such this massive part of your way.
[00:45:18] And, you know, your favorite book, all this stuff, and then to think back then now, yeah, and a few years, I'm going to be writing the forward to a rerelease of this book right here. It's like that part kind of makes it surreal, even for like me.
[00:45:32] It's crazy. You know, it was, you know, Jordan Peterson, and I talked to him about this, because he wrote a new forward of the rerelease of the Gullog Arca Palagrow.
[00:45:42] And the same thing, that was kind of a dead book and all of a sudden, you know, this popular guy comes to start talking about it and then they re-released it and who wrote the forward.
[00:45:53] And so I talked to Jordan about it, you know, I said, hey, how was that process?
[00:45:58] But it's probably pretty similar feeling for him, you know, of this book that he really, he got a lot of his thought from this book.
[00:46:07] And then they re-release it and he wrote the forward. And so when I talked to him about it, I was kind of telling him the same thing about what was going on. So I think we had a similar level of stoke.
[00:46:18] On that. But, you know, we talked about it. We talked about it on episode two.
[00:46:23] We talked about it with when Jim Muka Yamma, general Muka Yamma was on Mook, cool this guy.
[00:46:30] When he was on and I read all the sections, you know, that he was kind of involved in and that was awesome. But I wanted to cover some more of the book right now and look, the book is massive, you know, it's 800 and something pages. So
[00:46:45] To big book. But I wanted to read a little bit more of it, just because look, having read and I just spent whatever 40 minutes reading my words, but my words pale.
[00:46:58] In comparison to the man himself.
[00:47:04] So here we go. Let's jump into the book about face.
[00:47:10] Six February 1951. When I first saw them about a thousand yards to our front, the enemy looked like little black ants racing from the village towards snow covered hills. It was clear, cloudless morning.
[00:47:23] The temperature hovered around zero as the tanks kept rolling, closing on the ants and the hills set aside the road dead ahead.
[00:47:34] My squad was piggyback on the lead tank.
[00:47:38] Fighting in this frigid temperature is think about it. You're trying to manipulate your weapon. Any time you stop your freezing.
[00:47:48] I don't know. I like the cold better than the heat. You know what I'm saying?
[00:47:54] Yeah. You probably like the heat better than the cold.
[00:47:57] I don't know. I did under circumstances. Yeah.
[00:48:01] And I remember at UH we jumped in the ice bath for like 20 minutes. You go your whole body, whatever.
[00:48:09] When you get out of there, yeah, you can't move. Like you can't move your fingers. Like you can do that.
[00:48:13] Yeah. You can do that kind of stuff. So I don't know man. The heat kind of is, I mean, if you have water, but you don't always have water apparently.
[00:48:20] I don't know man. That's pretty pretty shamed up.
[00:48:23] I don't, yeah. That's a good point. The good point is it's either way it sucks, but certainly the cold is going to suck.
[00:48:29] I was my back to the book. My squad squad was riding piggyback on the lead tank. It was no long. It was no honor being first in the grim parade.
[00:48:39] We'd already ravaged the tank's toolbox and knocked off some rations to eat on the way. And now our only comfort was the motor of the M46, which built some welcome heat over our near frozen bodies.
[00:48:53] There you go. How are you gonna stay warm? Just get by tank exhaust.
[00:48:59] The tank commander relayed Lieutenant Lance ordered a dismount.
[00:49:02] I got the guys off like a shot and hit the ground running as the tank rolled on beside us. When I looked beside me, when I looked behind me, I saw the rest of third platoon had not dismounted.
[00:49:13] Maybe I'd heard wrong. Maybe I was just over-eager, but it's damn near impossible for infantrymen to re-border moving tank. So there was no choice but to keep running.
[00:49:22] And hope I hadn't blown it too badly with the re-lutenant.
[00:49:25] I didn't see the ants again for what seemed like a lifetime, but I sure is how new where they were. And an instant, the familiar roar of the tanks was drowned out by the deafening sound of incoming.
[00:49:39] Machine gun mortar artillery and self-propelled anti-tank AT fire.
[00:49:44] Like a buzz saw, the deadly crossfire was cutting into my platoon. There was at least a dozen enemy machine guns on the high ground and on both sides of the road.
[00:49:57] High ground.
[00:49:58] It's like all these things, all these little things they just, they just seeped into my mind over time. High ground. High ground. This is that word is just in this book. Oh, high ground. High ground. They got the high ground. We got the high ground.
[00:50:14] My guy is still running alongside our maneuvering tank. We're totally shielded. The other squads on the exposed decks of their tanks were hit hard. By the time we made it to the side of the rice paddy wall and set up a base of fire.
[00:50:28] Most of what was left of third platoon was scattered across the frozen ground. The tanks pulled off the road and rolled into position online. Once there they froze.
[00:50:36] Earlier in the assembly area, a tank commander had told me as unit the 64th tank battalion hadn't seen much hard combat. I believed him. As soon as they were fired upon, these tankers became paralyzed.
[00:50:52] They plumbed for got all their training and just sat there in those great big armored holes while the enemy went on throwing everything out of us, but the mess hall walk.
[00:51:01] I jumped on the back of the platoon leaders tank and pumped on the hatch with the butt of my rifle. The Lieutenant opened the hatch a crack.
[00:51:11] Hey Lieutenant, I yelled. Get some fire going at the enemy. Get the big gun going. Get the machine guns going. What's he asking for? He's asking for a cover fire. Like we're stuck. You got a freaking tank. Open fire.
[00:51:23] The Lieutenant was not with it. It seemed as though he had no comprehension of the fix we were in. Slugs were splatting hard on the side of the tank. The self propelled AT fire, which was screaming down the valley, dug deep furrows all around us.
[00:51:39] And yet the tanks still sat there silently like big fat clay ducks at a shooting gallery. Sergeant, the Lieutenant finally said in a shell shocked kind of days. Look, look, you see out there on the ice?
[00:51:56] Yes, I saw it. It was a pile cap, a little fur ball on the ice and made my platoons dead and wounded the bullets and the blood. That's my cap he said. Would you get it for me?
[00:52:06] So, you know, what are you learning from that right there? You are learning that people are not going to be able to handle certain situations and they might be focused on something that they shouldn't be focused on.
[00:52:17] I mean, and this is an extreme example, but if you've never been to combat before and you're in a leadership position, you might need to learn a lesson from that that you might get guys that aren't going to act the way you would expect them to act.
[00:52:30] What does he do? Back to the book. I considered shooting the sorry son of a bitch then and there climbing inside his tank and taking command. Fortunately, reason prevailed.
[00:52:43] I grabbed him and shook him until he looked as he views back to the real world. Then I instructed him to have three tanks concentrate on the self-propelled AT fire to our front and use the others to start placing man gun fire on the hills.
[00:52:56] To give him a bit of encouragement, I manned the tanks 50 caliber turgun and blasted one of the hills myself until I'd used up all the ammo and the commander got his men in action.
[00:53:07] What does that tell you? What do you do when people want to do? That's a lead from the front scenario.
[00:53:13] You know, in leadership strategy and tactics, I went through this whole the book, the book leadership strategy and tactics. I went through this whole section talking about leading from the rear.
[00:53:23] And how, you know, you want to let your leaders lead, you want to let your subordinates lead, you want to let them step up. If you're always leading from the front there, they're always following and you don't want that.
[00:53:33] But I also make a case for, hey, there are absolutely times when you've got to lead from the front. This is one of those times.
[00:53:42] Once the back of the book, once the 90 millimeter guns got going, we were on our way to gaining fire superiority.
[00:53:48] The amount of incoming decreased as the tanker started to remember why they were there, but the tank commander stayed buttoned up inside their turrets.
[00:53:57] No one was using the 50 calibers. So to explain this little bit, you know, a tank has like the big gun that you think of a tank.
[00:54:04] But then on top of it, they have a machine gun, a 50 caliber machine gun, which is a big giant machine gun.
[00:54:09] And basically, you sit up out of the turret of the tank, so you're exposed, but then you can shoot that 50 cowl wherever you want to shoot it.
[00:54:18] And all these guys were buttoned up inside their tanks, not using that weapon. Now they also have a weapon usually that's called a machine gun.
[00:54:26] That's coordinated, it's called a collaxial gun. So it's a machine gun. So you got the big main gun, which, you know, is what you think of when you see a tank.
[00:54:33] But next to that is a collaxial machine gun that they can fire from inside the tank. And it's just a machine gun that's pointing in the same direction as that big gun.
[00:54:42] But then in addition to that, they have this 50 caliber turret mounted gun that you can get up out of the weapon, out of the tank and you can shoot from.
[00:54:50] Is that a common thing? The 50 cowl? Yes.
[00:54:53] It's weird, I don't know if I didn't notice it or what? Not that I'm sitting around looking at tanks all the time.
[00:54:59] Yeah, thanks all the time. Yeah, nothing but. Yep. Three guns on a tank essentially. Yeah, I see main gun, Mike, my main gun, Mike, byma.
[00:55:09] He's a, he's a tank fanatic.
[00:55:14] But, but, you know, he used all those weapons. The collaxial machine gun is main gun and his turret mounted 50 cowl get some.
[00:55:23] So what is the two, two, two, three guys in the tank or what? I don't know. I don't forget how many people in the tank. There's a driver, there's a gunner.
[00:55:32] I want to say there's three or four people in there. Oh, interesting. Yeah, it's tight corners. It's hot.
[00:55:39] God bless him.
[00:55:40] So back to the book. Once the 90 millimeter guns got going, we were on our way to gaining fire superiority.
[00:55:51] The amount of incoming decreased as this tanker starting to remember why they were there. But the tank commander stayed buttoned up inside their turrets.
[00:55:59] No one was using their 50 cowlbers. I just couldn't believe it.
[00:56:02] Eight inches of steel between them and the chaos outside yet they didn't have it in them to help the sun come out for the guys stopping slugs with their field jackets.
[00:56:13] I went from tank to tank pounding on the hatches and blasting away on each of their 50s until all the ammo was exhausted.
[00:56:22] This little exercise had its effect. The tank commanders got the word and started doing what they should have been doing all along.
[00:56:29] When no further spoon feeding was required, I returned to my platoon. So again, that's just taking action, letting people see you have to lead from the front sometimes. Lesson learned.
[00:56:43] There were dead and wounded everywhere.
[00:56:45] Slugs were ricocheting off the ice. We get see sparks where they hit. Jim Parker's second platoon had successfully silenced an enemy machine gun to our left. So the pressure was off us.
[00:56:58] So the pressure was off enough for us to get our wounded behind the protection of the tanks and patty walls where they could be patched up.
[00:57:06] Our progress was hampered, though, because the tank crews kept moving their tanks. They didn't stop to think they were exposing our wounded all over again. They were too busy trying to save their own armor-coded skins.
[00:57:18] I told the tank lieutenant who might come to view and treat accordingly as a recruit at Fort Knox. That the next time a tank moved exposed our guys, I'd fire a 3.5 bazooka right up his ass.
[00:57:30] There was no more movement. I saw a soldier prone on the ice. He'd been there a long time. I thought he was dead, but then I saw movement and rushed out to get him. My God, I thought, it's debouer.
[00:57:48] I've had been with George company since early in the war. He was one of the few survivors from the original third platoon, basically because in those first hard months of combat, he had not seen one good firefight. He had an uncanny sixth sense. He could always tell when the platoon was in for a major bloodletting.
[00:58:11] He'd find an excuse to be somewhere else. Normally that excuse was going on sick call, which by regulation he was allowed to do, and he couldn't stop him even though you knew the only thing that was wrong with him was a chronic case of cowardice.
[00:58:26] Debuer himself even admitted he was a coward. And we hated him for it.
[00:58:32] He was now cast from the platoon, and we even had a little song about him, which we'd all sing in unison, quote, out of the dark, jury-curean countryside comes the call of the Debuer bird, sick call, sick call, sick call, and quote.
[00:58:48] He'd pulled this stunt only yesterday as we were saddling up for this very operation. He'd sensed the bloodletting all right, but hadn't figured that Debuer, foggy overcast, covering the battlefield would not lift, then the attack would be postponed. He'd return from the dock last night with a clean bill of health most surprised to see us. The rest of the platoon took great pleasure in the fact that his malingering little ass would be in the thick of things in the morning.
[00:59:19] Now Debuer was ash and faced hit in the chest or gut, I didn't know there was a lot of blood and well into shock.
[00:59:29] I knew he wasn't going to make it. Come on Debuer, you're going to be fine, you'll be all right, I said, giving him the old pep talk.
[00:59:39] As I grabbed his jacket collar and started sliding him across the ice, but Debuer said, no, Sarge, just leave me, you're going to get hit.
[00:59:51] Just leave me, Sarge, then suddenly he groaned, Sarge, I just shit my pants.
[00:59:58] And that was it, he was gone. I left him and ran back.
[01:00:09] Debuer in death became one of the great heroes of our outfit.
[01:00:14] It was true he'd never been anything in his army life, but a coward, but he died right, he died like a man.
[01:00:22] He didn't say take care of me, he said, leave me, take care of yourself.
[01:00:32] And when I told the other guys the story, old Debuer became a legend in the platoon.
[01:00:37] You know, whenever I read things like this, you know, or not whenever, but sometimes I just kind of get curious.
[01:00:51] So you get Google, the internet, interwebs, and you know, you do do Google, Henry C. Debuer, and there it is, Korean War, six February, 1951 from Newport, News, Virginia, son of Margaret Debuer.
[01:01:11] Didn't find much else besides that, but story behind every one of those names.
[01:01:21] Back to the book, the road ran north south, and we were on the east side of it. The balance of G company was on attack, maneuvering to secure the high ground to the north and to the west. There it is again, high ground.
[01:01:33] Do you think that my word where we read four pages more talking about high ground, do you think that might be an important thing in the world?
[01:01:41] My platoon, or what was left of it, was the fixum element trying to tie down the enemy while providing a base of fire for parkers and Gilcrest pltunes.
[01:01:52] What does that mean? It means cover move. It means he's in the cover position. The other elements are moving.
[01:01:56] Maybe that's important. Do you think it is? You've never been in combat before, and you hear this guy keep saying, put down cover fire? Yes.
[01:02:05] After we got organized, I had a moment to look around. I saw my platoon late leader, Lieutenant Land, sort of crouch down, leaning against a rice paddy wall observing the whole action.
[01:02:15] John Land was a good man, a World War two vet and former G company NCO. He was one of the few battlefield commissions in the 27th.
[01:02:23] Isn't he a cool customer? I fought to myself now, just watching this whole thing and taking it all in.
[01:02:30] Because really, that was about the only thing you could do in a time like this.
[01:02:35] Stay cool, stay down, and establish fire superiority as best you could. Do you think that's an important lesson?
[01:02:43] To stay cool, stay calm, stay down, get fire superiority.
[01:02:46] I examine what we have left in terms of a fighting force. Tennessee, Mitchell, Robert, Delbert, Bell, and Old DeBur.
[01:02:56] There were seven dead altogether and about a dozen wounded. The platoon sergeant was gone and the assistant platoon sergeant was nowhere inside.
[01:03:03] It seemed that all was left of third platoon was the balance of my squad, bits and pieces of the other two, and a light machine gun team.
[01:03:10] I ran over to the little lieutenant to ask for instructions.
[01:03:13] When I got there, I realized the reason Lieutenant Land was so cool was that he was also dead.
[01:03:20] He'd called a slug right between the eyes. The blood had poured down his face and chest, filled up the eyepieces of his binoculars and frozen there.
[01:03:29] I took the binoculars and slipped the radio from his dead radio operators back. I called Captain Mikeley.
[01:03:37] Our company commander gave him the situation report.
[01:03:40] He said, I was now in charge that we were to continue tying down the enemy and get the wounded out in that order of priority.
[01:03:49] Hmm, is that interesting?
[01:03:52] You've got the leader giving you two things to do and telling you that one of them is the priority.
[01:04:01] Lieutenant Gilchrest, first platoon who's having a hell of a time,
[01:04:05] their attack was being held up by fire from a hornets nest of well-concealed enemy automatic weapons position.
[01:04:13] Just as we've gotten the wounded under control, one of our guys who'd been doing some scouting spotted North Korean fighting positions on the other side of the deck,
[01:04:21] First platoon was attacking. He motion me over to have a look.
[01:04:25] Sure enough, at least a platoon was dug in there, almost in the shadow of the tanks.
[01:04:29] They were so close to the tanks, main guns couldn't depress low enough to hit them.
[01:04:35] North could their anti-tank weapons hit our tanks.
[01:04:39] It was a Mexican standoff, but not for long.
[01:04:42] So you have tanks, they can only lower their weapons so much.
[01:04:47] And so you've got the enemy so close and in a depressed position that you can't even shoot them.
[01:04:52] So you've got a little Mexican standoff and then all right, who's going with me, I asked.
[01:05:04] So what is what is hack worth do? He gets default aggressive. He's going to take action.
[01:05:13] He's going to take action.
[01:05:14] So he says, all right, who's going with me, I will said van meter, our platoon medic, a stud of a guy who had a great reputation as a fighter, as he did as a doc.
[01:05:24] While the others laid down a good base of fire, the doc and I threw two frag grenades over the deck.
[01:05:30] Hmm, what is that? That's cover move. You laid down fire. I'm going to hug grenades.
[01:05:35] Hmm. When they exploded, we leaped through the smoke landing front and center of the enemy. It was eyeballed the eyeball, the two of us facing at least 30 days, the wounded or dead communists.
[01:05:48] The enemy appeared to be leaderless. They were certainly in a state of shock and we cleaned them up and we cleaned up the position with ease using rifles and bayonets.
[01:05:57] You don't think too much about bayonet fighting in the Korean War, but, apparently you're getting after it, the two more than two more enemy soldiers appeared out of the smoke and confusing dragging a 57 caliber anti tank buffalo gun.
[01:06:16] We were no more than 10 feet apart. I leveled my M1 was about to shoot them when I looked down and saw that the bolt was back. My weapon was empty and it wasn't exactly the time for reloading.
[01:06:28] I lunged forward with the bayonet at on guard shouting, taosong.
[01:06:34] The enemy threw up their hands. The Chinese word for surrender was probably the only one I knew. I'd filed it away in my brain when we were up north.
[01:06:42] I must admit I learned it. I must admit I learned it thinking that someone would be saying it to me.
[01:06:49] But it didn't matter now. They're they stood with burp guns still hanging around their necks. A buffalo gun at their feet and me with an empty rifle.
[01:06:56] The funny thing was that these guys were Korean, not Chinese and the chances that they had understood what I had said.
[01:07:03] And the chances and the chances were they hadn't understood what I had said anyway. On the other hand in combination with that long razor sharp bayonet pointing at them, they probably would have surrendered if I had given the order in Swahili.
[01:07:16] In any event we took their weapons and turned the POWs over to our men on the other side of the deck.
[01:07:21] Then the dock and I continued mopping up in numbers and in firepower. These guys certainly should have outgunned what was left of third platoon.
[01:07:30] From the number of bodies buffalo guns and other AT weapons we found we conclude that we'd knocked off an anti-tank platoon that had been as green as scared as our tankers.
[01:07:40] The only difference was of course that these North Koreans would never tell the story of their baptism of fire.
[01:07:47] By the time we rejoined the platoon, my guys had looted to the two prisoners. The only real treasure was a US made Walfum Pocket Watch, which the guys gave to me.
[01:07:57] They became my six February souvenir. None of us spoke Koreans, so I asked PFC Charles to take the POWs back to Captain Mike Lee for interrogation.
[01:08:08] I was really pleased we'd nailed them.
[01:08:11] Prisoners are the best source of battlefield information.
[01:08:16] Pretty pertinent fact.
[01:08:19] And we're fighting still going on full tilt all around us. It'd be useful to find out what the hell was happening in the enemy camp.
[01:08:31] The first and second platoons of George were fighting hard to take the high ground.
[01:08:37] Navy courseers were working with the enemy over working the enemy over with Napalman strafing runs cut off between mine and Gilcrest platoon were an enemy who'd been bypassed.
[01:08:47] So I took a half a dozen of our guys and went up the hill to do some hunting. Once again taking action, taking the high ground.
[01:08:55] The North Koreans were cleverly concealed, well dug, bunkers stuffed with straw for warmth.
[01:09:01] The pine covered hill was a maze of seemingly unrelated positions which we slowly worked through in two man teams.
[01:09:09] Fire in the hole was shouted again and again as we grenade bunker after bunker.
[01:09:12] One man providing cover fire as the other edge to close enough to flip in a frag.
[01:09:21] Loss of combat.
[01:09:25] The enemy did not fight back. They stayed in the bottom of their holes looking like trap moles.
[01:09:31] It didn't take long before we ran out of frag grenades.
[01:09:34] A field expedient was quickly devised.
[01:09:36] The strafing stripped our tracer slugs from the machine gun belt and clipped them for our M1s.
[01:09:43] With one man covering his partner with slip up to the hole and snap off a tracer to into the position. The red hot slugs would ignite the straw inside.
[01:09:51] And when the defender came up coughing, he'd be shot between the horns.
[01:09:57] Gary Cooper wiped out a dozen dozens of German soldiers in Sergeant York by lowering them out with a turkey call.
[01:10:03] There was good enough for Sergeant York and Hollywood. It was good enough for us on 6 February 1951.
[01:10:10] We moved from hold the hole systematically burning the enemy out until the hilltop above us suddenly exploded with gunfire.
[01:10:16] The reds were counter attacking.
[01:10:19] As Gilcrest puttune fought them off only six feet from the crest of the hill.
[01:10:23] We beat feet back to the safety of our rice paddy wall.
[01:10:25] Patty walls whose purpose in more peaceful times was irrigation control where dirt walls about a foot thick and about three feet high.
[01:10:36] Perfect cover for most direct fire weapons infantry men loved them.
[01:10:41] Now, leaning against my safe Patty wall, even as first puttune fought off another counter attack with the help of second, which could observe the forward slope of Gilcrest's hill and provide warning of the enemy's intention. I realized I was starving.
[01:10:56] I opened a can of sea rations with my trusty p38 and Doug right in. I started at the top of the can.
[01:11:03] Big chunks of congealed fat under which lay beef and potatoes frozen rock hard.
[01:11:09] About this time an enemy sniper started firing along the top of the rice paddy wall.
[01:11:15] It was harassing fire only no one got hurt, but it got on all of our nerves far more even than the largest battle still going on around us.
[01:11:25] I just got down to the meat and was about to take my first bite when zip.
[01:11:30] A slug creased the furrow in the top of the wall right above my head and shoured my rations with debris.
[01:11:36] I scooped it out. I was about to try another bite when zip another slug. Same place did the same thing. By the third time that was it, I was pissed off. I'm going to get that sniper who's with me.
[01:11:48] Ray Wells, an ace machine gunner and good old country boy from West Virginia volunteered. We followed the Patty wall to a drainage ditch that took us behind the North Korean anti tank positions, but plan was simple.
[01:12:01] To get right to the rear of the sniper shoot the son of a bitch and go back and finish my seas. The ditch had an L-shaped turn. We stopped just shy of it.
[01:12:12] Where I inched forward to have a quick peek. Three Koreans manning a machine gun were lying in the prone position about 10 feet away not looking our direction.
[01:12:21] I slipped back to Wells whispering that I take the first guy he take the third and we double up on the gunner in the middle.
[01:12:26] We stepped out of the ditch, the North Koreans looked up but Wells and I were the last thing they ever saw. I knew they were dead. They were so close that I could hear the slugs thumping home in their padded jackets. We jumped over them and continued on our way.
[01:12:44] I came up behind a little tree at the top of the ditch. I deal concealment for a quick look see. After a few seconds scan I spotted the sniper on the hill.
[01:12:57] He was in a bunker about a hundred yards away on my left and I could clearly see the side of his head and his soviet SKS rifle. I ducked down.
[01:13:05] I didn't want to take a chance on Kentucky Windage, so I adjusted my M1 rifle sights down four clicks and got into a firing position. I had the sniper's head sitting right at the top of my front sight, but just as I was about to squeeze the trigger, I heard machine gun slugs snapping over my head. Then the repins report. The weapons report. Oh shit, I thought someone seen me for all I knew it could have been one of our tankers. The slugs were coming from that direction. Maybe they hadn't gotten the word that we were out here.
[01:13:35] So I started to go down, but as I went down I felt the top of my head explode. I'd called a slug. So what do we have here? Well we have a potential blue on blue scenario. I guess we don't know where that rounds coming from but it's coming from the general position of his tanks. So how's that happening? Well, that people don't know where he is. How important is to know where each other on the battlefield that's the most important piece of information you have?
[01:14:02] What's a sea ration? I mean, I know it's food. You know what an MRE is, right? Yeah. So that's the old school MRE.
[01:14:11] But they came in cans, not in the plastic pouches that modern MRE comes in. So they say it's like sea, is it the letter C ration or it's S-E-A ration? They write with a C.
[01:14:24] S, just the legislatures are just the, but I don't know where the origination of maybe it's canned rations that might be it. I don't think it's like these are meant for navel vessels at the sea because they, because they wouldn't use them out there because on ships they have big refrigerators and kitchens instead.
[01:14:43] I'm sure we'll find out when this comes out. People will let us know. Yeah. I'm guessing canned. That makes sense. Yeah, but that doesn't necessarily mean it's the truth.
[01:14:56] Like most good wolf-ounds, I wasn't wearing a helmet helmet to wear a pain in the ass unless there was a lot of artillery and mortifier coming in in which case they became as essential as air. The slug ripped through my fur pile cap and propelled me from the top of the ditch as though I'd been po-l-axed by Paul Bunyan.
[01:15:16] I don't know if I lost consciousness or not, but I do know I was stunned with four-larm sirens ringing in my ears. Well, I thought I was dead and took off down the ditch. I couldn't blame him.
[01:15:29] He thought he was all alone in behind enemy lines meanwhile I tried to focus on what had happened. So that sucks. But that time you get shot and you come to, you see your buddy leaving you for dead and you can't even blame him because you just got shot in the head.
[01:15:44] Blood really thick was pumping out of my head. The first thing I did was ask myself my name, rank and serial number, David Hacquorth, David Haskell Hacquorth, Sergeant, R.A. 19242907. That's pretty funny. He's been in the military so like institutionalized that when the first thing he asked is, they rank and serial number of himself. That's just beautiful.
[01:16:15] That came the automatic response which made me decide that my head must still be okay even if my ass was the worst crack ever.
[01:16:23] I started crawling down the ditch. I had to crawl because the North Koreans on the high ground knew they had an intruder in their midst.
[01:16:31] I stayed low on the enemy side. Slugs were spraying the ditch fast and furious but thumping up against the other wall. I crawled until I reached the machine gun crew.
[01:16:42] Wells and I had knocked off. Now I was faced with a dilemma. If I jumped over them, I'd become exposed to the enemy fire coming from the hill.
[01:16:52] If I crawled over them, one of them might still be alive and the longer I looked, the more my confused head convinced me to see that one of them was alive.
[01:17:03] And he'd kill me. I couldn't shoot them because when I got hit, I dropped my rifle.
[01:17:10] So I just stared at them. Like a dumb recruit wondering what to do. I pulled my trench knife out of my boot.
[01:17:17] Very carefully, I crawled over one of them waiting for him to move. I crawled over the next one waiting for him to move.
[01:17:23] Then I crawled over the third guy the same way and slipped on like a snake down the ditch until it was high enough for me to crouch.
[01:17:30] Then high enough for me to stand up and run. The whole time I was singing.
[01:17:36] Whoever said there aren't any atheists on the battlefield was dead right.
[01:17:41] Often when we'd be sitting around our little fires, one of the guys in the Paltoon would play as guitar and we would sing.
[01:17:48] The songs were all religious ones, like down by the river side, where we'd be laying down our swords and shields.
[01:17:55] Or please dear Jesus, hear my plea, just a little closer walk with thee.
[01:18:01] But there are also songs of great comradeship and a most magic feeling would always pour out when we sang.
[01:18:09] A feeling that third Paltoon, our Paltoon, was our family, our whole life.
[01:18:16] And somehow, between God and our brothers, we were going to make it through.
[01:18:24] So as I pounded down this ditch, I was singing just a closer walk with thee with deep feeling.
[01:18:33] Ella Fitzgerald, look out.
[01:18:36] To my mind, I was really talking to God. I was talking to the man.
[01:18:42] So I'm singing and running, blood's pouring out of my head, and then I remember I didn't have my rifle.
[01:18:49] What a rotten example I had set. Good NCOs don't screw up like that.
[01:18:56] Only a dumb shit of a soldier loses his rifle.
[01:19:01] So I stopped singing and started chewing my asses I ran down that ditch.
[01:19:07] Maybe it was because I was thinking about my lack of professionalism.
[01:19:11] Maybe it was just second nature thing from my training.
[01:19:15] Or maybe it was a sixth sense. I don't know.
[01:19:18] But the second's before I was home free just a few feet more.
[01:19:23] I told myself just around the corner I stopped.
[01:19:28] Hey, third Paltoon, it's Hackworth. I shouted. I'm coming in.
[01:19:36] Then I turned the corner.
[01:19:38] I found myself looking down the throat of corporal Wesley Morgan's mean looking browning automatic rifle.
[01:19:46] Man, you were so loud coming down that ditch.
[01:19:49] I found at least a Paltoon of Gooks was on the march.
[01:19:54] Well, it's told me you got it.
[01:19:57] If you hadn't called out, I would have moved you down.
[01:20:03] So we have another potential blue on the blue scenario there.
[01:20:13] And you know, I'm calling out all these little examples in this book.
[01:20:20] And this book is just, it just filled with them.
[01:20:28] It's filled with them over and over again.
[01:20:32] And we'll get into more of it.
[01:20:37] This is a long book. I could talk about this book forever.
[01:20:42] I think straight as I've read it so many times and every time I read it,
[01:20:46] I find something new, something different.
[01:20:48] Here's my original copy.
[01:20:50] This is the first copy I ever got right here.
[01:20:52] This old one. It's all beat up.
[01:20:55] I sent Tim Ferriss a copy.
[01:20:58] And he sent me a note back and he said, I said, hey, here's about face.
[01:21:03] This is the book I mentioned.
[01:21:05] And I sent him like an old hardcover because I have a bunch of copies.
[01:21:08] And he like felt bad because it was an older looking book.
[01:21:13] He's like, wait a second.
[01:21:14] Is this like, because we had talked about it even off the podcast.
[01:21:17] He was waiting a second.
[01:21:18] Is this like the book that you had in Iraq?
[01:21:20] I go, no, no, no, no, no.
[01:21:22] It's just a copy.
[01:21:24] But it's an older copy.
[01:21:27] Yeah, there's just so many lessons.
[01:21:29] And like I said, the book is 830 pages long with small writing.
[01:21:35] And also what's cool about it is you can open it up.
[01:21:38] You don't have to read the whole thing.
[01:21:39] You can open up anywhere.
[01:21:40] You can start reading.
[01:21:41] If you know the general story, you can start reading it anywhere.
[01:21:44] And that's that makes it beneficial.
[01:21:47] And actually, life was telling me the other day.
[01:21:49] And I remember doing this once.
[01:21:51] Life was telling me.
[01:21:52] He would like, you know, we'd be talking about something.
[01:21:54] I have it down in the tax for operations.
[01:21:56] Like sitting on my deck desk.
[01:21:58] And, you know, there'd be some.
[01:22:01] And, you know, there'd be some.
[01:22:05] Something in there.
[01:22:06] I'd read it to him.
[01:22:07] You know, be like, hey, listen to this.
[01:22:09] You know, him and his assistant, two in commander, whatever I'd read it to him.
[01:22:12] And, you know, say, what does that remind you of?
[01:22:15] And it'd be some situation, the exact situation that we were going through.
[01:22:19] You know, and so yeah, I even lay for members how much I relied on this book.
[01:22:24] But, you know, the other thing about this book.
[01:22:30] I think is that this book started to get me to see the way in all things.
[01:22:38] You know, as the first book I started, I bet you could do a good video.
[01:22:44] Oh, like layering things.
[01:22:49] Like all the little examples I pointed out.
[01:22:52] Can you imagine those words like high ground starting to really like come, like seeing it and seeing like,
[01:22:58] oh, that's cover, that's important.
[01:23:01] High ground, that's important.
[01:23:03] You know, people doing things, leading from the front.
[01:23:06] All those things started to just sort of appear as their level of importance and the connectivity to what I was going through and what I would see.
[01:23:15] So it's like this book, even though I had already been to college.
[01:23:19] And I have to give credit to when I was, when I was, when I studied Shakespeare in college.
[01:23:24] You know, I was an English major.
[01:23:26] So I had to study Shakespeare.
[01:23:29] And when we covered Henry the fifth on podcast, 15, I was talking about the fact that you don't, you, you have to really read Shakespeare.
[01:23:39] You have to look up the words you don't know. You have to decipher it.
[01:23:43] And so that was one level of my ability to comprehend what I was reading.
[01:23:49] But this was like the next level of of realizing that what you're reading can be overlaid and it can be that you can, it can add context and it can be instituted into your own context of your own experience.
[01:24:07] Yeah, like kind of like the Bible almost.
[01:24:09] Yeah.
[01:24:10] You know, like let the, you'll tell a story and then the, like the story, the significance of stories like the lesson.
[01:24:16] Right. And then it's so yeah, if you approach the book that it is this, it is, I'm reading this book for the lesson like as it applies to me today, you know, so you can kind of look to it.
[01:24:26] Okay.
[01:24:27] Yeah.
[01:24:28] Other, I think the book, I mean, we've covered the first, the podcast, the books that we covered on this podcast, a lot of those books I read before we started the podcast.
[01:24:37] But like when I would read those books, I would basically be reading a quote, cool or story.
[01:24:43] Right. This was the first book where I started going way to second.
[01:24:48] I see the connection. I see the connection, not just like all of a sudden I started drawing those same connections in all these other books that I would read, but it started with this one, which is, and I don't know why.
[01:25:03] Maybe it's because it's long and maybe it's because it repeats those same lessons over and over again.
[01:25:10] But yeah, I got to, it's really the first time I got to utilize someone else's knowledge in a way to help me, not just to help my knowledge, but really to add to my own experience.
[01:25:25] And this book, this book did it for me. So we'll cover more of it.
[01:25:34] We'll cover more in the future.
[01:25:36] But is that out? This is out. This is available. We have it on the website as you know.
[01:25:45] Yeah, hey, there are there are two versions. So there's the old version and you actually have to go specifically and we'll put the link.
[01:25:55] You have to go specifically to the new version of it to get the one that has that forward that I read.
[01:26:03] Yeah, if you want to check out this book and yeah, that's the thing. Don't be intimidated because it's 834 pages because you can read it three pages at a time.
[01:26:10] That's the other thing that's cool. It's not like a book where you've got to read 20 pages to be like, get something out of it. You can read four pages of this.
[01:26:18] Then you'll get something out of it.
[01:26:19] Yeah, yeah, and yeah, some books are cool like that.
[01:26:23] And you can kind of, especially if you just know the general story where you open up wherever and you're like, okay, and you can get the, you know, like some of them,
[01:26:30] you're like, all shoot, I shouldn't read this part because not only will it might, it might not make sense, but you know, you kind of should read the beginning first.
[01:26:38] You know, otherwise it would be spoilers or whatever.
[01:26:40] And you know what else we'll go into at some point.
[01:26:43] You know, I always on this podcast a few times that I read from this book.
[01:26:46] I'm only I only talk about the war part, but there's massive sections of his career between the Korean war and the Vietnam war,
[01:26:52] where he was, he was a soldier in a peacetime environment.
[01:26:57] So what he was doing was he was doing maneuvering and he was building relationships.
[01:27:02] He was doing all these things, all these leadership things that you have to do as a leader in order to build relationships and make good decisions and knowing a bit like all that stuff.
[01:27:11] So it's not, it's not all war even though a lot of it is, but he covers all these different dynamics of human relationships and human nature.
[01:27:21] And it's just, it's just good. So I, like I said, I'm honored, I got to write the fork. I'm honored. I've been able to share this book with a bunch of people.
[01:27:33] So hack.
[01:27:36] Thank you.
[01:27:38] Thank you for the knowledge and passing it on.
[01:27:42] And with that echo speaking of knowledge.
[01:27:45] Yes.
[01:27:46] Do you have any knowledge you want to share with us?
[01:27:48] Sir.
[01:27:49] Well, we are on the path. This is how to stay on the path.
[01:27:53] Let's hold deal. Okay. We'll discuss it. How about that?
[01:27:58] So we're working out.
[01:28:00] We are.
[01:28:01] Are you injured right now?
[01:28:02] No.
[01:28:03] I got some, I got some small cuts, but I don't really consider those injuries.
[01:28:09] Small scrapes caught to what not from branches.
[01:28:12] No, Larry.
[01:28:14] There's been some waves here in Southern California.
[01:28:18] Basically, to your reference there, I was, as we know, hunting in the wilderness and the wild.
[01:28:26] And while I was hunting, I actually didn't receive any.
[01:28:29] No, no cuts, no scrapes.
[01:28:31] There's always that possibility, especially, you know, when it's dark and you can fall.
[01:28:37] Sure.
[01:28:38] But, no.
[01:28:39] And you don't wear nods. Night vision goggles, obviously.
[01:28:42] No, I just have a question.
[01:28:43] Yeah.
[01:28:44] You're right. That's about a tip of the world. So it's a little easier for all once it gets dark.
[01:28:48] Where were you?
[01:28:49] I was in Utah.
[01:28:51] Hmm.
[01:28:52] So what, what do we, what, it's cold there.
[01:28:54] It's cold or warm.
[01:28:55] Right.
[01:28:56] What is the temperature was absolutely warm.
[01:28:59] It was warm. It was a little too warm.
[01:29:01] It was a, it was comfortable.
[01:29:02] I was going to say absolutely comfortable.
[01:29:04] But the problem is it's too warm.
[01:29:05] It needs to be colder for the type of hunt that I was doing.
[01:29:08] Oh, because it was like art.
[01:29:09] Like you guys are traveling, right?
[01:29:11] No, it's just the animals elk.
[01:29:14] Yeah.
[01:29:15] They like it to be colder and they're more active when it's colder.
[01:29:18] So when it's hot, they kind of sleep and it's harder to find them.
[01:29:22] And you're trekking through the mountains on a certain course or is it like the kind.
[01:29:27] You're just looking for elk.
[01:29:29] You're looking for elk.
[01:29:30] And what?
[01:29:31] Have you ever seen an elk bugle before?
[01:29:34] So elk do something called bugling, which is a completely animalistic.
[01:29:40] Dinosaur, craziest, screeching, howling noise.
[01:29:45] Yes, and they go nuts doing it.
[01:29:48] And so you hear that and then you try and go to it.
[01:29:52] Except for the crazy thing is they're so fast.
[01:29:56] They're just the way they move through the wilderness.
[01:30:01] You know when you run hills?
[01:30:03] Sure.
[01:30:04] Oh, yeah.
[01:30:05] And you know, let's say you're running up a decent hill.
[01:30:08] Like, I don't care who you are.
[01:30:11] When you sprint up a hill, you're going to be tired.
[01:30:14] But an elk does not work.
[01:30:16] It's no factor whatsoever.
[01:30:17] They're just they're going up hills as if you're just walking across this.
[01:30:21] Yeah.
[01:30:22] Sidewalk.
[01:30:23] Yeah.
[01:30:24] Not even breathing.
[01:30:25] All right.
[01:30:26] The, uh, you don't want you watch National Geographic or something like this.
[01:30:32] Where you see these animals.
[01:30:33] And you know, like, yeah, you see the obvious big ones that elephant and the buff.
[01:30:37] And the buff a lot of you're like, oh, yeah, that's big.
[01:30:40] But men, a wild animal, even if it's kind of the smaller, like, I'm quite
[01:30:44] There's these little goats.
[01:30:45] Right.
[01:30:46] These goats that cruise on the mountains and stuff.
[01:30:48] And from far away, like, oh, look at that goat.
[01:30:50] But you start to get, I mean, I haven't been right up to one a while
[01:30:53] to one, but as you kind of can see them close to you, like, man,
[01:30:56] the things kind of intimidating just how like capable it is.
[01:31:00] You know, like, so these elk's like, they get kind of big.
[01:31:03] Yeah.
[01:31:04] Like, it's not like a little deer, like, I don't like, you know, when you watch, like,
[01:31:06] you know, when you watch like, bam, be these deer's, they're just so, so, like,
[01:31:10] fragile these things in and out.
[01:31:12] And they fight each other and they fight each other and they just throw down.
[01:31:20] It's crazy to watch.
[01:31:22] It's crazy to watch.
[01:31:22] And it's, you know, it's, it's an awesome experience.
[01:31:26] Yeah.
[01:31:27] It's just, like, you know, like, when you think of like, who, you know,
[01:31:30] these people, whatever kids, they're like, yeah, I'm a tiger,
[01:31:33] or I'm a lion and it's like, yeah, obviously, you know,
[01:31:36] lions are, for us just sure.
[01:31:38] But in real life, like, a wild animal, like, a elk, for example,
[01:31:43] but when you go up to it, you're like,
[01:31:45] brother, that thing is for us.
[01:31:48] You know, like, you don't realize that, you see it on a YouTube video,
[01:31:51] or something like that.
[01:31:52] Everyone's in a wild, maybe, like, if they're, you know,
[01:31:54] involved in certain actions.
[01:31:56] But, well, you know how strong, like, let's say a lizard.
[01:32:00] Like, you know, when you grab a lizard or just a
[01:32:02] small animal, like, how strong a small animal is,
[01:32:05] compared to a human right for, like, pound for pound.
[01:32:08] Yeah.
[01:32:09] So then you think what's that like when this thing weighs 800 pounds,
[01:32:12] you know, you think, because they're exponentially stronger than
[01:32:15] weak humans.
[01:32:17] Yeah.
[01:32:18] Let's face it.
[01:32:19] We're as weak as a animal.
[01:32:22] Yeah.
[01:32:23] We're just kind of pathetic as an animal.
[01:32:25] I think no.
[01:32:26] You know, compared to what, the average elk can sprint up a hill,
[01:32:31] like it's nothing, like it's nothing.
[01:32:34] And by the way, it can ram its freaking head into stuff.
[01:32:38] They kill each other.
[01:32:39] They kill each other.
[01:32:40] We saw, we saw bodies on the ground.
[01:32:43] Elk bodies on the ground from fights.
[01:32:46] And the other elk aren't super concerned about it,
[01:32:48] because that's just kind of a thing.
[01:32:50] You know, you're going to get, you're going to be some casualties out there.
[01:32:53] That's the light in these scenarios.
[01:32:56] That's death.
[01:32:57] And what, you guys out there, what, no cell phone,
[01:32:59] no nothing or yet service or what?
[01:33:01] Like what kind?
[01:33:02] Very limited service.
[01:33:03] Okay.
[01:33:04] Spani.
[01:33:05] Yeah.
[01:33:06] I mean, very, like, whether there's one little hill we'd go over and at the top,
[01:33:10] you might catch a bar.
[01:33:12] Yeah.
[01:33:13] You know, I'd get 78 texts.
[01:33:15] Yeah.
[01:33:16] And then I just look out of the gums.
[01:33:17] I'm just going to keep walking until my service goes away.
[01:33:19] Yeah.
[01:33:20] I got, or I sent you a picture of something.
[01:33:24] And you know, how like when you send a picture, somebody will say,
[01:33:26] delivered, you know, didn't say delivered.
[01:33:28] For like a long time, like, later that day, I looked in.
[01:33:31] Yeah, because I went over the top of that hill,
[01:33:33] chasing an elk somewhere.
[01:33:34] But awesome experience.
[01:33:36] Good man.
[01:33:37] Well, no elk this time.
[01:33:38] No, yep.
[01:33:39] Empty hand.
[01:33:39] I was going to say awesome experiences, but I also have to add empty handed.
[01:33:43] But knock on TV.
[01:33:45] Yep.
[01:33:46] Right.
[01:33:47] I follow them.
[01:33:48] Yep.
[01:33:48] And there was a picture early on.
[01:33:50] Yep.
[01:33:51] Of an elk like close.
[01:33:52] Yeah.
[01:33:53] I got up and with that scenario.
[01:33:55] Well, so where we are hunting, you have to take elk that are of a certain age.
[01:34:00] Oh, and what they're not old enough, you don't shoot them.
[01:34:03] Yeah.
[01:34:04] And so I ran into quite a few elk like that.
[01:34:07] It was very, it was very unlucky.
[01:34:09] Some, and look, look, is it okay?
[01:34:12] Am I saying, I just didn't get lucky?
[01:34:14] I'm telling you, I tried my hardest man.
[01:34:19] So, you know, I tried my hardest man.
[01:34:21] We spent a lot of time out there.
[01:34:22] We did everything we could.
[01:34:24] Doug Lee's an amazing hunter.
[01:34:26] We had a guide with us amazing hunter.
[01:34:29] And, you know, the scenario that you put into is good of a scenario.
[01:34:33] So you can get really for for elk hunting.
[01:34:36] But it's still not a guarantee, man.
[01:34:39] And we spent, you know, many, many hours in a hiked very far.
[01:34:45] Why does long as we could?
[01:34:47] You know, it's trying to get it done.
[01:34:48] And it doesn't happen.
[01:34:49] So, you know, what you get out of, I got a lot of experience.
[01:34:53] I mean, I got a lot of experience out of it.
[01:34:55] Obviously hanging out with a bunch of great guys up there, just a bunch of great people.
[01:35:00] And so that's, that's awesome.
[01:35:02] But it's also humbling, you know, it's humbling.
[01:35:05] You don't always win, man.
[01:35:06] And if it bombs you out that you don't win, find a different thing to do.
[01:35:10] Because you're not always going to win.
[01:35:11] It's like you're jittering that way.
[01:35:12] Like if you just want to win in jitter, you don't train.
[01:35:15] Because you're not just going to win.
[01:35:16] You know, it's not going to happen.
[01:35:18] Yeah, in fact, you kind of, I mean,
[01:35:20] especially the whole journey, you lose,
[01:35:23] especially on your way up, you're losing way more than you're winning in any capacity.
[01:35:28] Oh, you did.
[01:35:29] Oh, yeah, for sure.
[01:35:30] And I feel like in this Elk scenario too, where, man,
[01:35:33] it's kind of like if you get one, that's like,
[01:35:36] that's like a big deal, you know?
[01:35:38] It's a huge deal.
[01:35:39] Yeah.
[01:35:40] It's a huge deal.
[01:35:41] Like you not getting one, and I don't even know about Elk hunting, by the way.
[01:35:44] But you not getting one, I wasn't like,
[01:35:46] oh, that's surprising.
[01:35:47] I was like, well, that makes sense to me.
[01:35:49] You can go for weeks.
[01:35:50] Yeah.
[01:35:51] And there's the scenario that I'm hunting in is a very,
[01:35:54] it's the best scenario you can put into.
[01:35:56] Most people that hunt are going out,
[01:35:59] what they call a public land hunt,
[01:36:01] where you're just going out in the wild.
[01:36:03] Yes.
[01:36:04] I'm going to more controlled environment,
[01:36:07] where there's, where there's,
[01:36:10] they have a better sense of the number of elk that are there.
[01:36:15] And that's why it's controlled like that.
[01:36:17] So, but like I said, hey,
[01:36:19] we're even with all those things stacked in my favorite.
[01:36:21] I ain't no guarantee, you know?
[01:36:23] I'm living proof of that.
[01:36:26] Because we tried, man.
[01:36:28] We tried, then I appreciate everyone's help,
[01:36:30] you know, that, you know?
[01:36:32] I mean, just a training and learn not a shoot.
[01:36:36] Just good, just good people trying to try to make it happen.
[01:36:40] But, yeah, that's like a crazy feeling to,
[01:36:43] about what else young, I used to make slingshots.
[01:36:46] Yeah, you cut the guava tree.
[01:36:48] The white part.
[01:36:49] For sure.
[01:36:50] For sure.
[01:36:50] So you cut it.
[01:36:51] Boom.
[01:36:52] I used to skin it and sand it and when I make it look cool,
[01:36:54] but what would you write on there?
[01:36:55] Terminator 9.
[01:36:56] Amy.
[01:36:58] So, what was that weapon you used in somebody
[01:37:01] with a spreader spreader, yeah, contra?
[01:37:03] Yeah, you tried to do it spreader.
[01:37:05] I just think I did it.
[01:37:07] Amy, you put, uh,
[01:37:10] made out of, yeah, the guava tree.
[01:37:12] And then you cut it, then you put, um,
[01:37:14] surgical tubing.
[01:37:15] Yeah, there's different.
[01:37:16] Oh, bro.
[01:37:17] I mean, I made some shots too.
[01:37:18] Oh, yeah.
[01:37:19] Those are your deals.
[01:37:20] Yeah.
[01:37:21] Anyway, so you go out and you're trying to, like, hunt little birds and stuff.
[01:37:25] Right?
[01:37:26] And it's like, right?
[01:37:27] It's like, kind of hard.
[01:37:28] It's not, you don't just, you're not just whacking birds all day.
[01:37:31] You're like, you're missing pretty much.
[01:37:32] So when you get one, it's like a huge, huge deal.
[01:37:34] So I kind of understand, but the elk's the same thing.
[01:37:37] You seem to say.
[01:37:38] Dude, exactly.
[01:37:39] Yeah, exactly.
[01:37:40] Anyway, so you're not injured.
[01:37:43] That's good, you know, some cut, some bruises.
[01:37:46] That's good.
[01:37:47] Yep.
[01:37:48] I'm saying injuries.
[01:37:49] And injuries all part of the game.
[01:37:51] For sure.
[01:37:53] You have to contend with injuries.
[01:37:54] Yeah.
[01:37:55] 100%.
[01:37:56] They're all in play.
[01:37:57] Let me say, and I hate to say this.
[01:37:58] Maybe you can correct me if you think I'm wrong.
[01:38:01] But I would go so far as to say, if you're getting zero injuries, you might need to step it up a little bit.
[01:38:09] Right?
[01:38:10] I'm not saying you want to get injured.
[01:38:11] Yeah.
[01:38:12] I hate being injured.
[01:38:14] Yeah.
[01:38:15] But the only way to complete the avoid injury is playing video games.
[01:38:20] Which even that, I guess you could get carpooled tunnel syndrome or something.
[01:38:24] Carpooled tunnel, I think, is like more of a typing thing.
[01:38:27] Or like, put it all this, pronated, supinated, right?
[01:38:29] Assing.
[01:38:30] Greg Train.
[01:38:31] Yeah.
[01:38:32] Greg Train whenever he's explaining moves.
[01:38:33] He's using his medical tools.
[01:38:35] And a ton of cool pills.
[01:38:36] Yeah.
[01:38:37] Yeah.
[01:38:38] All right.
[01:38:39] So what are you getting at, bro?
[01:38:40] Long side shot.
[01:38:41] Well, it wasn't necessarily getting at anything.
[01:38:44] I'm just trying to re, like, visit kind of where we all are.
[01:38:48] You know, but you make a good point.
[01:38:50] Like where, yeah, you're not, of course you're not saying, I don't think it can be.
[01:38:54] I'm sure it can be, but I'm, I'm not interpreting it as like, yes, you should pursue getting injured.
[01:38:59] And that's what you know, your heart, no, it's not that.
[01:39:02] But with most exercise, most worth it exercise.
[01:39:06] It's going to come with an element of risk.
[01:39:08] So whether you're pushing hard, whether you're going through dynamic terrain, whether you,
[01:39:13] and which can be, if you do different things, whether it be due to you, even like long distance outdoor running.
[01:39:18] Oh, for sure.
[01:39:19] This is like, this is all for real stuff.
[01:39:21] Cliff, client, you know, all this stuff.
[01:39:23] So yes, client, you know, that's not my jam.
[01:39:26] Obviously, I don't know what's called cliff.
[01:39:28] What is it called?
[01:39:29] That's just called rock climbing rock climbing.
[01:39:31] Cliff climbing.
[01:39:32] I mean, technically, right?
[01:39:34] All our rocks and they are cliffs.
[01:39:36] Yeah.
[01:39:37] And then they are going to be a little bit more difficult.
[01:39:38] Anyway, as we get older or sling shot, hunting.
[01:39:41] Very similar to Alcantin.
[01:39:42] Sometimes.
[01:39:43] Same thing for much.
[01:39:45] Same thing for much.
[01:39:47] You can be very similar.
[01:39:49] Well, on our way through this path, whatever it may be, exercise wise, we do need supplementation.
[01:39:57] Sometimes not just be not just exercise, but also cognitive lead.
[01:40:01] Sometimes we want supplementation as well.
[01:40:04] Oh, yeah, to to to reap full benefits of that the path provides yes, I agree.
[01:40:11] So let's talk about Choco few.
[01:40:13] Got you supplementation all day physical way.
[01:40:15] Okay, so we start with the foundation, the structure.
[01:40:19] Doesn't mean as much in my experience anyway.
[01:40:22] I've only lived one life, of course, so far.
[01:40:25] Early on in life versus later on in life, it seems like the structure kind of
[01:40:31] signifies more significant in my experience.
[01:40:34] You don't worry about your joints.
[01:40:36] You know, you're back.
[01:40:37] You know how like people like when you get when you get, um, like, trainers, they'll be like,
[01:40:41] hey, you need to start with your core.
[01:40:43] Right.
[01:40:44] You seem to say, yeah.
[01:40:45] Because your core is where you're based in all this stuff, right?
[01:40:47] Let's face it when you're young.
[01:40:48] You're like core.
[01:40:49] What about what are you even talking about?
[01:40:51] You're just thinking arm.
[01:40:52] Get on that.
[01:40:53] That's an inch.
[01:40:54] See, what's up with that bitch?
[01:40:55] Yeah.
[01:40:56] And those doing core max out anyway.
[01:40:58] But as you grow older you understand.
[01:41:00] So I just said a thing core max outs, even to make fun of it.
[01:41:03] Because I've never heard that before, but it's very funny.
[01:41:06] Okay.
[01:41:07] But hey, let's do some core max outs.
[01:41:09] What do you max?
[01:41:10] Or I don't know.
[01:41:11] I don't know.
[01:41:12] I just made it up, but it sounded correct.
[01:41:15] And given the circumstances on the last.
[01:41:18] The point is, joints joint warfare.
[01:41:21] This is what's going to be.
[01:41:22] Okay.
[01:41:23] Jockel joint warfare.
[01:41:24] This is supplementation for your joints.
[01:41:25] Keep them in check and check in the game.
[01:41:28] Start at the foundation.
[01:41:30] Probably had a little knee.
[01:41:32] Tweet while we were up in the mountains.
[01:41:34] And he was just dosing joint, not warfare.
[01:41:38] And he was in a, he was in like an echo Charles situation where he didn't have it.
[01:41:43] And then he went back on it.
[01:41:45] And his knee was using it with power through.
[01:41:47] You went bersideuses.
[01:41:49] Yes.
[01:41:50] Okay.
[01:41:51] So I get, I've had it before.
[01:41:52] I've had bersides on my shoulder and my heel.
[01:41:54] Yeah, my heel.
[01:41:56] It's weird.
[01:41:57] So I get bersideous now when,
[01:42:01] cos they didn't do this before.
[01:42:03] I do deep squats barefoot.
[01:42:05] Check for some reason I get bersideous in my heel.
[01:42:08] Just genetic weakness really.
[01:42:10] It's possible.
[01:42:11] Nonetheless, when these things happen,
[01:42:14] I have this weird, like confidence.
[01:42:16] Like it'll happen.
[01:42:17] Like I'll do it in the next day.
[01:42:18] Like I'll be walking on this just like,
[01:42:19] Oh man.
[01:42:20] Like it feels like almost like a shariot.
[01:42:22] So it's a weird, very distinct feeling in your heel.
[01:42:24] But I always have this weird, like subconscious,
[01:42:27] almost feeling that,
[01:42:29] like, oh, this is going to be gone immediately.
[01:42:31] Even though it's like really bad.
[01:42:33] So you know, when you have injury, then you have full recovery.
[01:42:36] Yep.
[01:42:37] That time to me just feels like in my brain.
[01:42:39] I'm so confident that that time is going to be like almost no time.
[01:42:42] Cos that next day.
[01:42:43] Cos it's a joint work.
[01:42:44] Cos you're on the joint work for you.
[01:42:45] That's how it feels.
[01:42:46] And the krill oil really.
[01:42:47] Right. Yeah.
[01:42:48] The combo 100%.
[01:42:49] So sure enough.
[01:42:51] Next day, it's still sore.
[01:42:53] Like, fric, this is like, this might be something serious.
[01:42:56] You know, like it might be bad.
[01:42:57] The next day after that, pretty much gone.
[01:42:59] Yeah.
[01:42:59] It's like it just, it's like a desire to just be.
[01:43:02] I just feel like, you know, it's one of those, one of those deals.
[01:43:05] Nonetheless, so if you're going to work for it.
[01:43:07] Krill oil discipline discipline go.
[01:43:10] Yes.
[01:43:11] Well, let's start mulk.
[01:43:13] So from the final, like consider the foundation and then you start to go.
[01:43:17] You have built.
[01:43:18] You got to build.
[01:43:19] Seems same.
[01:43:20] So you can be doing curls shoulder press.
[01:43:23] Lot raises building up the upper body.
[01:43:25] Right.
[01:43:26] Won't be nothing.
[01:43:27] Why does that get a whispers?
[01:43:29] And what would be anything if you joined the jammed up.
[01:43:33] So you got to take care.
[01:43:34] So now go up.
[01:43:35] Now when you're doing the bench.
[01:43:36] When you're doing that in your case, deadlift, whatever you do.
[01:43:39] These squats all day.
[01:43:41] You're going to need the protein supplementation for rebuilding.
[01:43:45] That's when you implement the mulk.
[01:43:48] I had mulk with me on my trip.
[01:43:51] And like we said, I say one night, I'll hold you up.
[01:43:54] The head and up there.
[01:43:55] Mulk.
[01:43:56] See, roughing it up.
[01:43:57] We'll do it.
[01:43:58] See it.
[01:43:59] Good.
[01:44:00] You know, they got the little, well, here's the thing.
[01:44:02] They got the little travel.
[01:44:03] Sam Pabach.
[01:44:04] Yeah, yeah, you brought them.
[01:44:05] Those things got awesome.
[01:44:06] Yeah.
[01:44:07] You know, in an airport, you can't bring fluid through.
[01:44:10] So you just walk through.
[01:44:11] Get yourself a little milk with your mulk pouch.
[01:44:14] Sure.
[01:44:15] And they'll probably break it out.
[01:44:16] Yeah.
[01:44:17] But actually, that is good.
[01:44:18] Because I have a bunch of those, the little packs.
[01:44:21] I think they're like from the musters and stuff.
[01:44:23] And you know, peek at you.
[01:44:24] Send them to me.
[01:44:25] Okay.
[01:44:26] I don't bus into that at home.
[01:44:27] Yeah, that's a joke.
[01:44:28] I'm very rude.
[01:44:29] Yeah, that's good, man.
[01:44:30] It's good move.
[01:44:31] And the last it's there for long time.
[01:44:33] I'm trying to explain it to you.
[01:44:35] You know, trying to make you elaborate.
[01:44:37] I'm going to be good.
[01:44:38] Okay.
[01:44:39] So if you can, you see if you can go.
[01:44:41] These are things that I feel are beneficial to know.
[01:44:44] If you see it as an it's entirety as a system.
[01:44:47] I'm trying to stay quiet.
[01:44:50] But now you're getting crazy.
[01:44:51] There you go.
[01:44:52] Okay.
[01:44:53] So you're, okay.
[01:44:54] Your joints are taking care of already.
[01:44:55] All good.
[01:44:56] Your muscles boom.
[01:44:57] You work on breaking down rebuild them.
[01:44:58] Mulk.
[01:44:59] Supplemental protein in the form of your dessert.
[01:45:02] All good.
[01:45:03] Work in mulk too.
[01:45:04] By the way, if your kids, you need general protein.
[01:45:06] And they like, you know, the dessert scenario as well.
[01:45:08] So that's available.
[01:45:09] Then you body.
[01:45:11] All good.
[01:45:12] All degenerate.
[01:45:13] Regenerating regenerating.
[01:45:15] Bigger all good structure foundation.
[01:45:17] All good.
[01:45:18] Now you need the mind.
[01:45:19] Your mind.
[01:45:20] Keep you mentally in the game.
[01:45:21] Boom.
[01:45:22] That's where the discipline comes in.
[01:45:23] You're saying discipline discipline go.
[01:45:25] Cands powder whatever you like.
[01:45:27] That's your choice.
[01:45:28] That part is on you.
[01:45:29] I can't give accurate specific guidance on what's.
[01:45:34] Implementation methodology.
[01:45:37] Fair enough.
[01:45:39] Nonetheless, if you're into the energy drinks scenario.
[01:45:42] As you just put it, that's not good.
[01:45:45] If you're into normal energy drinks scenarios, that's not good.
[01:45:48] Because those things are not good for you.
[01:45:50] And I know it might sound crazy.
[01:45:52] But discipline go and it can.
[01:45:54] Is good for you.
[01:45:55] It is good for you.
[01:45:56] Yeah.
[01:45:57] So there's no sugar in there.
[01:45:59] There's vitamins in there.
[01:46:01] There's caffeine.
[01:46:02] 95 milligrams of caffeine, which is not some.
[01:46:05] Crazy.
[01:46:06] You know, run around.
[01:46:13] There's some name for dude like this.
[01:46:16] But anyways, you know that dude.
[01:46:18] Yes, sir.
[01:46:19] Yeah, we do.
[01:46:20] This is.
[01:46:21] This is.
[01:46:22] Like a.
[01:46:23] It's just.
[01:46:24] It's just.
[01:46:25] It's good for you.
[01:46:26] Yeah.
[01:46:27] So it.
[01:46:27] Okay.
[01:46:28] So I went kind of.
[01:46:29] Like, okay.
[01:46:30] So I've been talking to Pete.
[01:46:31] And right recently.
[01:46:32] So I, you know, you kind of go deep in these rabbit holes.
[01:46:34] Like, okay.
[01:46:35] So apparently other energy drinks do a lot of wonky stuff with their.
[01:46:39] And it's and it's wonky meaning like they advertise this.
[01:46:43] But then meanwhile they're doing a lot of this other stuff that they sort of omit when they advertise.
[01:46:47] You know, so you just.
[01:46:49] You kind of get maybe more than you've bought you bargain for some.
[01:46:53] In a bad way.
[01:46:54] In a bad way.
[01:46:55] No, sir.
[01:46:56] So and I wound up watching this video was a comedy video for sure.
[01:47:00] It was called like a lot of people make this kind of video like if energy drink,
[01:47:04] like to advertise is where honest.
[01:47:06] And the guy and his like this official guy and he's saying like all this stuff.
[01:47:09] I don't know, he wouldn't talk about any specific energy drink.
[01:47:12] So he's.
[01:47:13] I was like, Bro, he's talking about all this like poison and stuff.
[01:47:16] Like there's what they do to do this and it makes it this and this is not.
[01:47:19] So if when you're consuming your energy drink of death, like saying all this stuff like
[01:47:24] Dang bro, like I don't even know because I used to like energy drinks.
[01:47:28] Yeah, well, you were working late at night and everything.
[01:47:31] Yeah.
[01:47:32] I didn't even press you.
[01:47:34] But now I feel kind of betrayed.
[01:47:36] But I need more discipline.
[01:47:38] Go boom, all day all healthy 100% preserve it is.
[01:47:41] Nope.
[01:47:42] Pasturized.
[01:47:43] Unless get on that.
[01:47:44] Sure.
[01:47:45] Nope, my crew.
[01:47:46] Yeah, my crew.
[01:47:47] No sugar.
[01:47:48] So yeah, all good.
[01:47:49] There it is.
[01:47:50] And while so while you're on the path, that supplementation,
[01:47:53] methodology.
[01:47:55] Perfection.
[01:47:56] It's a perfect system.
[01:47:58] Anyway, you get all these stuff, all this stuff at originmain.com or at the vitamin shop.
[01:48:04] If you're walking in or if you're in Florida or Virginia, we got a little
[01:48:10] situation coming to the wall wall stores.
[01:48:14] We'll be there in October.
[01:48:16] Yeah.
[01:48:17] So they go get some.
[01:48:19] So this is how it goes if you're in Florida or Virginia.
[01:48:23] In the morning, you take the joint warfare before you or depends on when you work out.
[01:48:27] Before the workout on your way to the gym, if you're going to the gym, stop at
[01:48:31] while you get the discipline go boom to the gym hit the gym smash the gym.
[01:48:36] Really smash it.
[01:48:39] Come home, boom, mulk all day.
[01:48:42] You'd be on the path big time.
[01:48:44] Just establish that routine.
[01:48:46] Anyway, back to origin origin origin.
[01:48:48] Or at origin.
[01:48:49] Or at originmain.com.
[01:48:52] Also on there American made stuff straight up.
[01:48:56] Jeans, boots, geese, grasscards, t-shirts, American made stuff, which may not seem like a big deal,
[01:49:06] but it is a huge deal.
[01:49:08] It's a huge deal.
[01:49:10] You know what?
[01:49:11] The typical business scenario is, hey cool, let's start a brand out-sourced to some overseas place.
[01:49:21] Get the prices cheap you can, take advantage of slave labor basically.
[01:49:28] And then we'll bring it back here and we'll sell it for some incredible markup and make a bunch of money
[01:49:33] and not hire anybody because we're just going to keep it all.
[01:49:36] Or you can do what we're doing.
[01:49:38] Build it here.
[01:49:40] Treat workers well because they have awesome value.
[01:49:45] Become self-sufficient as a country.
[01:49:48] Maintain knowledge, ancient knowledge, which is almost lost.
[01:49:55] Almost lost.
[01:49:56] We got it.
[01:49:57] You know that situation when the ball is about to go out of bounds.
[01:50:02] It's just in time.
[01:50:04] That's what origin is doing.
[01:50:06] Just in time.
[01:50:07] To save the knowledge.
[01:50:09] And the big corporations, you know what they say, you cannot make this stuff here.
[01:50:15] It's impossible.
[01:50:17] No, it's not.
[01:50:18] It was done before.
[01:50:20] We're doing it now.
[01:50:22] Watch me.
[01:50:23] Yeah.
[01:50:24] And it's kind of like the genes, for example.
[01:50:28] When you think about it, oh yeah, the designer genes, like when you consider really what are you paying for this.
[01:50:35] It's like whatever the brand.
[01:50:37] But what do you like for real paying for?
[01:50:38] Like what do you care about about those genes?
[01:50:41] You know?
[01:50:42] Sure the fit.
[01:50:43] Okay.
[01:50:44] That's good.
[01:50:45] If that's a thing.
[01:50:46] I've been thinking about that whole aspect of designer genes and you know what?
[01:50:50] These are designer genes.
[01:50:51] They're designed for work.
[01:50:53] They're designed to last.
[01:50:55] They're designed to function properly in all scenarios.
[01:50:59] So they are designer genes.
[01:51:00] They're designed for work.
[01:51:01] Get some of that.
[01:51:02] All right.
[01:51:03] There you go.
[01:51:04] I take.
[01:51:05] Sign you up.
[01:51:06] Oh yeah.
[01:51:07] My favorite genes.
[01:51:08] 100%.
[01:51:09] Also.
[01:51:10] Jaco has a store.
[01:51:11] It's called Jaco Store.
[01:51:12] And this is where you can get your shirts.
[01:51:14] While you're on this path, you want to represent this little equals freedom.
[01:51:17] Good.
[01:51:18] We've got shirts, hats, hoodies.
[01:51:20] Newboard shorts.
[01:51:22] By the way.
[01:51:24] Good utility, water, jiu jits.
[01:51:28] All that.
[01:51:29] They're brand new.
[01:51:31] Anyway.
[01:51:32] Uh, the some Irish Oaks Ranch.
[01:51:34] So Jaco Sop, jupy soap.
[01:51:36] Where he gets soap.
[01:51:37] All that stuff.
[01:51:38] Anyway, yes.
[01:51:38] Jaco Store.com.
[01:51:39] He likes something.
[01:51:40] Get something.
[01:51:41] You can also listen to some podcasts that we have.
[01:51:44] Including this one.
[01:51:45] You can subscribe to it.
[01:51:47] And you can.
[01:51:49] You can leave.
[01:51:50] What do they say?
[01:51:51] Leave review.
[01:51:52] Leave review.
[01:51:53] Comment and like.
[01:51:54] Leave review.
[01:51:55] Here's the thing.
[01:51:56] Go.
[01:51:57] I would say.
[01:51:58] Okay.
[01:51:59] So you, Jaco,
[01:52:00] Villink.
[01:52:01] You currently have the best content as far as comments go.
[01:52:07] So not even necessarily on your.
[01:52:09] You know, the one that the stuff for GQ, the the the the movies or whatever break down the breakdowns.
[01:52:14] And there was another one.
[01:52:15] I think it might have been your TED talk.
[01:52:17] Brad, chariitos comment.
[01:52:18] Bro.
[01:52:19] It's like, uh, like when when Jaco was born,
[01:52:23] the doctor turned to his parents and said,
[01:52:26] It's a man.
[01:52:27] You know, like that kind of.
[01:52:28] So funny.
[01:52:29] Or when Jaco left left for college.
[01:52:32] He told his father,
[01:52:34] You're the man of the house now.
[01:52:35] Brad, you.
[01:52:36] I'm reading these like laughing out.
[01:52:38] I'm reading all these comments.
[01:52:40] Oh, man.
[01:52:41] It's the best.
[01:52:42] Nonetheless, yes, we have a YouTube channel.
[01:52:44] Uh, so yes, subscribe to that too.
[01:52:47] If you want to, if you have one of those, man,
[01:52:49] I don't even care if it's like kind of funny,
[01:52:51] but just just say them.
[01:52:52] Those comments.
[01:52:53] Really good.
[01:52:54] Yeah.
[01:52:55] Uh, we also have other podcasts, by the way.
[01:52:57] We have a podcast called The Unraveling,
[01:52:59] which we are about to launch on its own.
[01:53:01] What feed.
[01:53:03] Yeah.
[01:53:04] So we have that.
[01:53:05] The unraveling.
[01:53:06] Look that up.
[01:53:08] We got more episodes coming.
[01:53:10] We're starting to get caught up to where the episodes are a little bit more.
[01:53:13] Let's say.
[01:53:15] Current to what's happening in the world right now.
[01:53:17] We spent a lot of time of Iraq.
[01:53:18] We've, so we're going to check those out if you want to check those out.
[01:53:21] We got the grounded podcast, which we haven't done a long time.
[01:53:24] Although it kind of seems like we just did what.
[01:53:27] As you tried to explain your methodology for taking more,
[01:53:30] which is fine.
[01:53:31] You know, you know, it's critical.
[01:53:33] It's, you know, we got to use decentralized command here.
[01:53:35] You know, I got to let you run with it sometimes.
[01:53:37] It's all good.
[01:53:38] War your kid podcast.
[01:53:39] Haven't done one of those in a while as well.
[01:53:41] So, sorry.
[01:53:44] Straight up.
[01:53:45] That's it.
[01:53:46] Yeah.
[01:53:47] Well, there you go.
[01:53:48] They're all good podcasts.
[01:53:49] Very valuable.
[01:53:50] But yes, maybe not quite as consistent as the job podcast.
[01:53:54] And you know, it makes sense.
[01:53:55] Anyway, yes, and I mentioned the YouTube channel.
[01:53:57] We have you to channel.
[01:53:58] So yes, video version.
[01:53:59] All that stuff.
[01:54:00] Exerps.
[01:54:01] All good.
[01:54:02] Also psychological warfare.
[01:54:03] You need a boost from Jocco telling you the right thing to do when you're about to do the wrong thing.
[01:54:08] AKA skip or work out AKA eat donuts.
[01:54:11] AKA do do something that you know you're not supposed to do.
[01:54:14] You never plan to do it.
[01:54:15] In fact, you plan not to do it, but a moment of weakness is kind of luring you in whatever you want to talk about it.
[01:54:21] Tell you why you should or shouldn't do something.
[01:54:23] Boom.
[01:54:24] There you go.
[01:54:25] Psychological warfare.
[01:54:26] Don't forget about if you flip side gambas.
[01:54:29] Flipsidegambas.com.
[01:54:31] Dakota Myers company making stuff to hang on your wall.
[01:54:35] That is graphically cool.
[01:54:37] You've got a bunch of books.
[01:54:39] Got this book here called about face.
[01:54:42] I wasn't sure because it's a reissue.
[01:54:45] I wasn't sure if there would be and if this would be,
[01:54:48] quote, a first.
[01:54:49] A dish.
[01:54:51] I just got my copies.
[01:54:53] And I found out that yes indeed,
[01:54:56] what you have with this book.
[01:54:58] This version of this is a first a dish of this version.
[01:55:03] You can see it right there.
[01:55:05] Above where it says Library of Congress.
[01:55:07] Congress.
[01:55:08] There's a numbers one through ten.
[01:55:10] And when this is the first a dish,
[01:55:13] which means the one is there.
[01:55:15] After the first a dish is gone,
[01:55:17] you won't see that one anymore.
[01:55:19] That's a problem.
[01:55:20] So you'll be on second a dish, which pretty much is an awful place to be.
[01:55:26] What's the actual name now?
[01:55:30] You know how it's called about face.
[01:55:32] There's no change to it.
[01:55:33] All it says is for by darker one.
[01:55:36] Okay.
[01:55:37] So there's no other change to it.
[01:55:39] I mean the cover is also a little bit different.
[01:55:42] Yeah, it's actually, I guess a lot different.
[01:55:45] So well, it's not a lot different.
[01:55:47] There's a little bit different.
[01:55:49] So yeah, and we'll link it to the right one.
[01:55:52] And I've been signing about faces for a long time.
[01:55:56] Like people bring me about face and I don't sign them.
[01:55:58] So that's pretty cool.
[01:56:01] And now I get to sign one that is even just a little bit cooler.
[01:56:06] And now you can get a first to start to get a first a dish of the original book.
[01:56:10] Now you can get a first a dish of the re-issue, the relaunch.
[01:56:14] Anyways, check it out.
[01:56:15] Don't forget about the code written by me Dave Burke.
[01:56:20] There are Armstrong leaders who's driving in tactics field manual.
[01:56:23] All the answers are in there, by the way.
[01:56:25] All the answers are in there.
[01:56:27] So so check that one out.
[01:56:29] We got way the warrior kit one, two and three.
[01:56:31] We got Mikey in the dragons.
[01:56:33] We got this political freedom field manual.
[01:56:35] We got extreme ownership.
[01:56:36] And we got the dichotomy leadership.
[01:56:38] All kinds of books.
[01:56:39] If you want, like what I talk about here, you can get more.
[01:56:42] You can get the books and read about it and overlay and understand these things in a much deeper way.
[01:56:49] We also have Ashland front, which is my leadership consultancy where we solve problems through leadership.
[01:56:54] Go to ashlandfront.com for details on that.
[01:56:56] We got EF online, which is me talking answering questions.
[01:57:00] Got the rest of the Ashland front team there.
[01:57:02] We do live things.
[01:57:03] We got a forum.
[01:57:04] We got leadership primer and immediate action.
[01:57:08] Just like all kinds of stuff.
[01:57:09] To help you as a leader.
[01:57:12] We got the master, which is our leadership event.
[01:57:16] There's only one in 2020 due to the COVID virus.
[01:57:21] It's going to be in Dallas, Texas, December 3rd and 4th.
[01:57:25] Go to extreme ownership.com for details.
[01:57:27] Now listen, we've done.
[01:57:29] Everyone of these that we've done is sold out.
[01:57:31] We were going to do two earlier this year.
[01:57:32] They both got canceled because of COVID.
[01:57:34] And so people have transferred their tickets over to that one.
[01:57:38] So this one's going to sell out.
[01:57:40] Plus we, it looks like we might have to have less seating depending on the COVID scenario.
[01:57:44] So if you want to come come and sign up now.
[01:57:47] And of course we have EF Overwatch executive leadership before your company.
[01:57:53] That understand the principles that we're talking about.
[01:57:55] People leaving the military whether retired or they're getting out.
[01:57:58] These are experienced leaders that can come help you and your company.
[01:58:02] Go to EF Overwatch.com.
[01:58:04] And if you want to help service members active and retired.
[01:58:07] Their families, their Gold Star families around the world,
[01:58:09] then check out Mark Lee's mom.
[01:58:12] Momally, she's got a charity organization called America's Mighty Warriors.
[01:58:17] Go to America's Mighty Warriors.org to donate or get involved.
[01:58:21] And if you need to hear more of my overburdened oration or you feel you need to absorb more of Ecos unbridled banter,
[01:58:33] then you can find us on the in-a-webs on Twitter, on Instagram,
[01:58:39] which is what Ecos, the Graham and Facebook.
[01:58:44] Ecos adeclacharals and I am at Jocco-Willink and thanks to Colonel David Hackworth for writing this book.
[01:58:53] But more important thanks to Colonel Hackworth for his service in sacrifice and for his dedication to our country and to his soldiers and to dedication that never wavered.
[01:59:06] And the rest of the military personnel that are listening active duty, retired veterans.
[01:59:13] Thank you for your dedication as well with a special dedication from Hack.
[01:59:20] To all the doughboys, the ground pounders, the grunts, the American infantrymen, past, present and future, thanks to all of you.
[01:59:31] And to the police and law enforcement and the firefighters and paramedics and EMTs and dispatchers and correctional officers and Board of Patrol and Secret Service and to all the other first responders.
[01:59:40] Thank you for your level of dedication that you also show to keep us safe here at home.
[01:59:46] And to everyone else out there, let's remember that lesson from Henry C. DeBouer.
[01:59:55] And I'm died on that frozen piece of Korea on February 6th, 1951.
[02:00:02] The lesson is if you're taking care of yourself, if you're making yourself the priority, then you're a coward.
[02:00:13] But if you take care of others, if you step up and do the right things for the right reasons, if you put the needs of others above yourself,
[02:00:24] you will be a hero.
[02:00:31] To go and be a relic.
[02:00:35] Until next time, this is Echo and Jocco.
[02:00:39] Out.