Jocko Podcast 239: Avoid The Trap. Critical Lessons From Different Angles. With Dave Berke

2020-07-22T22:34:01Z

Join the conversation on Twitter/Instagram: @jockowillink @echocharles @davidrberke 0:00:00 - Opening 0:08:00 - Combat Lessons: Rank and File in Combat: What They're Doing and How They're Doing It. 1:44:08 - Final thoughts and take-aways. 2:06:32 - How to stay on THE PATH. JOCKO STORE Apparel: https://www.jockostore.com/collections/men Jocko Fuel: https://originmaine.com/origin-labs/ Origin Jeans and Clothes: https://originmaine.com/durable-goods/ Origin Gis: https://originmaine.com/bjj-mma-fit/ 2:34:11 - Closing Gratitude.

AI summary of episode

so you think oh we got a machine gun up there we need a call for fire and now you think about how hard it's going to be for the start to lead a hit this place that's bunkered in or they're on the reverse slope of a mountain or whatever it's a real problem and yet these guys realize if they just aggressively maneuvered on that machine gun they'd be able to take it out the attue action likewise indicated that standard japini's infiltration tactics can be offset by a system of anti-termite patrols organized behind our lines protecting artillery command posts and supply lines wherever troops know that these friendly patrols were behind them fire in a rear will mean separate that our patrols are cleaning people up goes into the south Pacific talking about the jungle jungle notes aggressive action flexible plant plans report of the 43rd division new Georgia aggressive action is necessary never relax the pressure never relax the pressure that's a good that's a good just thing to think about every time you wake up in the morning never relax the pressure maneuver of small units at risk of temporary loss of communications is important plans and orders must be so flexible as to permit prompt maneuver change this is another thing where I would feel like I was cheating when I was you know going through training and stuff because we would make these really flexible plans and of course the training cadre is gonna do things to disrupt your plan and when your plan gets disrupted and it's super flexible like I would ever you know go plan be go with plan C and then you move because if you pop your head up again in that same spot you're going to take one common in all these accounts of a successful night attack by a small unit the application of the following principles is worthy of note close control during the approach by the use of control lines adjusted to difficult terrain features designation of a line of departure as close to the objective as possible and after all major terrain obstacles have been passed this is a essential to assure proper organization of the unit immediately prior to the so you can to apply that right there so many business things right there like you get everything ready to go you get past all the main obstacles once everyone's passed the main obstacles then you execute attainment of the vital surprise use of the bayonet and hand grenades with no weapon firing permitted it may often be advisable to prohibit the loading of rifles and for anyone that doesn't understand why these guys are talking about using grenades so much grenades do not give away your position neither do bayonets so you can hug grenades and no one knows where it just came from there's no one to shoot at there's no muscle flush and so it's a great weapon when you are attacking from like a clandestine situation where you don't want the enemy to know where you are you so front of attack only any attempt at development tends to cause disorder and confusion note that one puttune which had advanced ahead of the general lines was pulled back to conform so they're saying frontal attack only and what they're saying is don't try and surround because if you try and surround people at night and you're gonna end up on opposite sides and you're gonna end up in a blue on blue situation I don't think that they mean don't set up flank situations a definite and limited objective capture of an airfield in this case in which the entire front could be covered by manpower rather than firepower all that's good these are the major elements of successful night attack brought out in the foregoing account others not mentioned but which were undoubtedly contributing contributing factors of the operation are careful planning in my new detail precise specific orders careful arrangement for maintenance of direction throw daylight reconnaissance by as many of the leaders as possible use of compound use of compact columns in the approach so the reason that they're saying precise specific orders that's different that's different than what we normally talk about the reason is because you are attempting to make this happen without having the enemy get a vote so once the enemy gets a vote if you two specific things change now we don't know what to do but we are setting this thing up to be very specific and we should be able to get to our last point of concealment we should be in our positions everything should be good once that attack starts but I wrote all this stuff about hey when you're calling in a helicopter here's what you need to do and I'm going to find this because I have this book I have it and one of the things I said was leave one helicopter at altitude to provide cover fire for the helicopter that's on the ground and here I was a new guy kind of thinking that I had a little something you know had a little something for these guys and that's one of the initial kind of thoughts around or me starting to realize that cover move wasn't just that that really was the fundamental of everything that we were doing and the other thing that I scratched down when when I talk about people you're talking about people being really good at their jobs I was doing some kind of an exercise at the camp Pendleton and somehow we got linked into a mortar a Marine Corps mortar element and bro these guys were doing Iads immediate action drills with their mortars and you know I just remember watching them and I don't know what I don't know how you put words I don't know what you know they were you know they're freaking 18 years old I know they at least think of the Darby Queen the the ranger off-school course in our work we always use the buddy system the men work in pairs they live in pairs even pairs do garden pairs even do kp in pairs confidence and jugglers developed they can pick their own buddy from within their platoon same thing in the seal teams day one you get a swim buddy and stick with them realism in our training we never do anything without battle noises and effects we always use live ammunition we use mines barbed wire and protective bands of machine gun fire extensively if the problem is to capture a machine gun nest there's always a machine gun nest there with a machine gun firing in a fixed direction the men very quickly get a custom to having live ammunition flying around them capture the telling the German machine guns and machine pistols are used by the enemy in our problems that he's talking about the out for our men quickly learn to distinguish between the fire of our own weapons and that of enemy weapons also the enemy makes constant use of flares we always carry our normal load of ammunition with weapons loaded if a man knows his weapon is loaded he will be more careful in handling it an accidental discharge of a weapon automatically means a fine and immediate reduction to the grade of private in our work we must take drastic measures to guard against accidental discharge of weapons we learned our lesson in Tunisia where the accidental discharge of a rifle cleared a raid and caused a 24 hour delay in operations so all kinds of good stuff in there and and I will say this so when I got the seal teams it was almost all live fire we did live fire for everything and it gave you that kind of pressure and that kind of you you got a custom to machine guns and hearing them and you know round snapping overhead and you do you got used to it in fact there were days where they would put us down range and just shoot you know put put put you down range you'd go behind a berm or whatever you get in a safe spot and then they just shoot at you so you'd start getting used to like so you Dave shouldn't take your squad beyond where my range the web the range of my weapons and then when you start to talk about that that means you know communications as well if I don't get you know communications with you then I can't support you if my weapons can't reach out and touch and give you support then we're not in supporting distance and that's too far away what does that mean you just change your perspective a little bit and dispersion which is positive but if you get too far apart it's negative so these lessons are the same over time and yet we still have to teach because we still make mistakes and when we learn things from a different angle and even reading a document yesterday that's thousands or the last podcast that's a document thousands of years old you'd think yourself that after thousands of years thousands of years we would be talking about these leadership principles in the most commonly known way that everybody just like you know I couldn't have written extreme ownership because people would have been just you know saying hey no kidding dude what are you talking about this is this is part of the fabric of life but these things aren't they're they're not they're not the fabric of life they're they just seem to need to be rediscovered over and over again which is which is horrible but one thing I think allows us to learn them in a more complete way is seeing them from different angles from other experiences and today we're going to take a look at combat lessons which you know yeah get aggressive making it happen because if you just make a flexible plan and you think hey you know you guys come in from the west and you guys come in from the south there's all kinds of things that go wrong with that plan it's super flexible but no one knows where they can't go where they can't go there's no deconfliction set up so you need to think about it the other thing that's interesting about aggressive action flexible plans is the more you plan the more detail you get the worse your plan becomes now if you come up with a plan in three minutes you probably need a little bit more time although I have executed operations where I we planned for 15 minutes my boss asked me that my boss said how much time do you guys need to launch this is my first deployment my second deployment no one asked me they already knew the answer my first point how much time you guys need I was like 15 minutes that's how much time what you're getting at though is the propensity of what how the things usually work out do we usually plan too much or not enough it's pretty rare that we don't plan enough what typically happens is we overplan an overplan an overplan and there's an old saying I don't know if it's just an aviation it's how long do you have to plan your mission and the joke is thirty how long do you need to plan your mission and the joke is the thirty minutes more than you have and the reason is is we have a propensity to overplan when I then it's talked about this in extreme ownership when I was telling those guys hey just make a plan that the lowest common denominator I get up have people walk through it look at the map use the map draw a picture draw it up on the whiteboard do that I remember Seth was looking at me like he was going to get fired like when he gives this brief he's going to get fired and it's funny because usually I would get that I would feel a little bit more push back from life on stuff and Seth would be like rea Roger and Lave would have why would we do like that and this time for whatever reason I think I think Lave actually just realized that this was the smartest thing he'd ever heard I think Lave just said to himself you know what this actually freaking makes sense and he was so on board with it he was so stoked and he had BTF Tony was his chief and that's the way you know Tony knew how to make shit happen yeah the context of the night pieces also I think really important because it seems what he's what they're saying is that there's a lot more close control under a night attack requires a whole lot of things because when the chaos ensues under an attack you were denied something that you usually rely on so heavily and when you were reading that and again it's under the context of a night assault it's different it's different at night you told a story long time ago that I've used a bunch and there's a version of it I have from flying which was when we started using NVG's the way we described the use of NVG's why we would use NVG's in airplane is the most simplest way to describe it is it allows us to use daytime tactics at night which before you just couldn't do you actually you want the least amount of close control is possible you need to have some but in the day you don't need it as much because you can rely on being able to see each other and when you started to see people like reject the idea of things that allowed you to maneuver in different ways using technology because why would I do it like that the night creates an environment that's really hard to operate in and if you're going to be successful at night you have to do a lot more things than you would normally do during the day which is why some of the technology pieces are so nice to allow you to do it but even with that you can't pretend like the two are the same and the detail is going through I'm all thinking next one leaders in front staff sergeant Richard E. Deeland infantry Sicily we want our captains out front we don't much care about the position of our battalion commander that's it that's all that's a whole note keep them moving operation report seven tharmysicely during an attack officers and noncommission officers must never allow men to lie prone and and passive under enemy fire they must be required to move forward if this is at all possible if movement is absolutely impossible have the troops at least open fire the act of firing induces self confidence in attacking troops the familiar expression dig or die has been greatly overworked attacking troops must not be allowed to dig in until they have secured their final objective if they dig in when momentarily stopped by enemy fire it will take dynamite to blast them from their holes and resume the advance this is another thing and we're going to get into some of this there's another element again where you get to total war and and that's what that's what that's what that's what these things are leaning towards we're in a totally different situation you know this is this is an existential war where if we don't win America's not going to exist freedom will not exist in the world nco leadership staff sergeant Robert J. Camp platoon sergeant infantry Sicily nco leadership is important leaders nco's an officer should be taken to an OP for terrain instruction and study before an attack this has been possible in my outfit about one fourth of the time we have what is called an orders group which consists of that group of officers and nco's that must be assembled for instruction before any tactical move simple clear concise orders get people together get face to face with them look at the terrain show them what they're seeing show them where they're going to move to and this seems real obvious and yet this guy is saying hey you better do it keep your mission in mind Colonel eb fayer field artillery observer with fifth army Italy difficulty was experienced in making patrol leaders realized the importance of bringing back information by a specified hour in time to be a value patrols often returned after encountering resistance without accomplishing their mission sending them back to accomplish their mission despite their fatigue seem to be the most effective solution to the training problem involved although the information required often arrived to late yeah they got the the the japanese on their attack made it they broke through and it was fighting in the rear lieutenant general Simon B. Buckner commanding general asking department it was apparent that the enemy was particularly vulnerable to attack by units of our infantry which pushed forward vigorously while the enemy was held down by artillery fire what we call that you cover move those units which had learned to advance closely behind their own artillery supporting fire had the greatest success the japs do not like our coordinated artillery fire nor do they like our attacks with the bayonet when under fire from small arms they stay down in their holes and are easily approached when attacking small groups of foxholes our troops were able to keep the japs down by fire from rifles and the browning automatic rifle while some of our men approached and drop hang grenades into their holes this is our favorite mop up method cover move when about to be run out of a position the japs seem to feel it necessary to counter attack these attacks were not well coordinated and were welcomed by our troops who were able to shoot down the enemy in great numbers these jap counter attacks were part of a suicidal character and were pressed home regardless of losses until practically all the counter attack and troops were exterminated the enemy may believe that in such terrain he can hold up the advance of an entire battalion with three men and a light machine gun in fact however he is critically vulnerable to intelligent action by officers and men who understand the necessity for immediate maneuver against small parties of the enemy seeking to hold them up the fact was that a small maneuvering that small maneuvering patrols easily disposed of machine gun positions on reverse slopes behind mount spurs whereas any tendency to lie down and call for artillery support whatever resulted only in tremendous wastage of artillery fire and attempting to seek out targets which in fact were inaccessible artillery fire that's an important point oh that's too good to be true there's a right machine gun that's waiting to be taken out looks real obvious an obvious trap and yet the warning is there why is the warning still there because people still fall for it you will still fall for it I will still fall for it we will all still fall for that trap just like we will fall for the trap that we're good to go that we know everything that we need to know that we understand everything that we need to understand that we have reached our highest possible form then all those little thoughts are a trap because we're not good then we don't know everything we don't understand everything and we have absolutely not reached our highest form we all have work to do so watch out for that trap because it is enticing it is enticing like a low machine gun just gonna sit out there by itself waiting to be taken out and it's real easy to tell yourself that you're good I think some of it depends on the circumstances you know if you have an actual discharge in the seal teams it's going to be your careers your careers are the line you know if you if you have something like that happen it's not necessarily going to be over but you're going to have a real you're going to have to keep your hopes up they don't that you don't get so even like like a called AD right or AD AD and the which is a negligent discharge I think they are now I'm not like totally caught up on the terminology of where it's at right now the and the just started coming around when I was sort of in my later years that's kind of you know I say oh you know leadership principles stay the same and when you read through the woozy you start to get some supporting evidence to that because he's talking about the fact that you need to be beloved but never and you need to treat people well and treat them with respect and take care of your people which is all things that you know I talk about we all talk about but then in the woozy it also says to execute anyone that disobeyes your orders so so that leads you to think well maybe some principles have changed and you know I used to actually have a rationalization for this or an excuse for this and what I would say is there's there's a difference in leadership when you're leading conscripts instead of volunteers and so as leadership moved away from or military leadership and that by the way when you go back in time it's not just military leadership because what are the people the people are surfs and peasants and they're being led by these kings with divine power they're literally looking out the windows trying to see where we were and we walked in shot them all in the back rescued our guy but the what's important here is any goes into like a little bit a little bit more detail but you because we're being quiet you have to have good control lines of where you're going to let people get to hand the hand fighting Captain Gerald infantry at Biscari airport I used my trench knife twice one of my man got three with his bayonet he shot one then another tried to grab his bayonet he got this one with his bayonet that got him started so he got three in before it was all over small arms against arm we found that the the 30 caliber AP pierces enemy armored half tracks at close ranges that's something that everybody should know put to an action lieutenant hallrich infantry when the enemy machine guns opened up with three grenades the machine guns pulled back out of grenade fire then NCOs and Browning automatic riflemen went up over the embankment through and beyond the initial enemy positions eventually we had a base of fire about 20 men including the bars the BARs during the enemy counter attacks we did pretty well with other fire two led was flying fast and fiercely at 20 to 30 yards we fire at flashes in this kind of firing you learn to fire and roll to one side or they will soon get you but I'm going to read it a Luger pistol was found lying on the ground an American infantry lieutenant carefully tied a long court to it and then getting into a hole pulled it to him and put it in his pocket later in the day while examining the pistol he attempted to remove the magazine the explosion killed the lieutenant and two other men with six soldiers wounded the reason I'm reading that is because that was a freaking they set that thing up that's a that's a massive explosion from a small piece of from a small pistol timelyness of orders major kidney infantry are chief difficulty throughout the campaign was the lack of time given for the execution of orders frequently received operations orders which did not allow enough time for proper preparation and execution at San Fratello we received an order after 11 p.m. to attack at six a.m. the next morning now when I read that I was like hey man that's kind of thinking you all said I'll come up with a simple flexible plan no factor I got this what are they whining about read on the six battagans were assembly were in assembly areas some five or six miles from the line of departure so even to get to where they were supposed to leave from the had to go six miles the terrain over which they had to move to get in position in the dark was the roughest most rugged mountain country you can imagine and all ammunition weapons it supplies had to be taken by hand and by muelpack although it might seem that 11 p.m. to six a.m. was sufficient time the actual conditions were such that it was less than half done enough because the terrain darkness and transport difficulties also the men had just completed marches over mountain trails of nine to 14 miles and we're not fresh for the new movement maps seven th Army report Sicily instill an all personnel and appreciation of the value of maps the supply of maps will never be adequate to the demand training in the care and preservation of maps is as important as training in the care and preservation of material most important thing you need to know most important piece of information is where you are and if your map is destroyed have you received those old school silk maps and I don't know watch TV or something that piece of it when you're talking about that discipline what you get when you hold yourself to the exact same standard as your people Basil section two field artillery morale effect the incestant firing of our artillery during the six week period produced contrasting effects on the nerves of our own troops and on those the enemy our infantry often stated that having those rounds continually landing in front of them was one of the best morale builders especially at night in the jab on the other hand it produced severe cases of war neurosis he couldn't sleep at night because he never knew when or where the next round was going to land he couldn't sleep in the daytime because when our infantry wasn't attacking him our artillery was giving him hell and this is nice the following statements made by prisoners are interesting so these are Japanese prisoners of which we know there wasn't a lot between the airport between be below hill and the airport we had many guns of all sizes before this campaign but now many of them are gone knocked out by artillery it is completely demoralized many units reduced many units in strength and has made many men go crazy we were awakened at night by the slightest noise because of the bad state of nerves at night three men stayed in one foxhole two smoked while one slept during the day we also tried to get some sleep by alternating but the continual artillery fire kept us on edge and we got no rest even in the two story dugouts many men were killed just by concussion a direct hit would kill all the men inside the artillery is the one thing that is universally feared by all our ground troops it continues over such long periods of time and the rounds come so fast except for the artillery we could continue our defense that's horror that's just horror section three miscellaneous booby traps seventh army report Sicily a German Luger pistol was booby trapped on a table new replacement picked it up two were killed and 14 were wounded in the resulting explosion there's another little set I wasn't going to read this where in the jungle you might have forgotten that patrolling in the jungle an officer with considerable experience in the jungle patrolling gives this advice patrols are most likely to give away their presence in an area by their footprints shine from the smallest metal surface such as a belt buckle or watch must be avoided a luminous watch constitutes a real danger and he noise such as talking coughing, spitting, etc. must have to be treated with the greatest of all dangers a man on patrol must learn to move silently making every possible use of natural cover that's just old school stuff I got to feel something I was hunting it's like so happy to be moving quietly some more patrol tips positioning camouflage are more important than I learned in the states in training in training bear down on covering concealment bear down on avoidance of the blundering approach on patrols on fire maneuver which are equally important and I didn't read that well in training bear down on covering concealment bear down on the avoidance of blundering approach on patrols on fire maneuver which are equally important size of patrols the tenant kernel w a walker tank destroyer battalion commander Tunisia which you know let's just face it you're getting a title tank destroyer battalion commander is right up there many men were lost in Tunisia by using squad patrols the Germans used stronger patrols and just gobbled them up a patrol should be either a sneak patrol small enough to escape detection or a combat patrol large enough to fight its way out of difficulty never allow one man to go out alone you know what's interesting about that we don't want to be balanced like well I mean you think he was so freaked out by the fact of thinking that he was getting fired for for trying to make his men understand what was going to happen on this mission and the cool thing was the commanding officer when when they got done because it was two platoon's going out on on an SR you know on a reconnaissance mission and they both took their platoon's out when they got done the you know the commanding officer who had gone around and watched all the platoon's give all their briefs and give all these 150 power points slides and do all these you know what what is it called animation in your slides he'd watched all those things and he he said these these are the best briefs of scene which was freaking

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Episode transcript

[00:00:00] This is Jockel podcast number 239 with echo Charles and me jockel willing good evening
[00:00:06] Eko good evening and also joining us tonight is Dave Burke good evening
[00:00:10] Dave good evening. So last podcast we went through the woozy
[00:00:16] Which you did some you did some research and we did not
[00:00:21] Come up with the meaning of the word
[00:00:23] woozy other than room okay so woozy by woochy from ancient China
[00:00:30] a lot of
[00:00:33] solid leadership lessons in there and I was thinking about these leadership principles
[00:00:39] and how leadership principles are not supposed to change
[00:00:43] Right that's kind of you know I say oh you know leadership principles stay the same
[00:00:46] and when you read through the woozy you start to get some supporting evidence to that
[00:00:54] because he's talking about the fact that you need to be beloved but never
[00:00:58] and you need to treat people well and treat them with respect and take care of your people
[00:01:03] which is all things that you know I talk about we all talk about
[00:01:09] but then in the woozy it also says
[00:01:12] to execute anyone that disobeyes your orders
[00:01:18] so so that leads you to think well maybe some principles have changed and you know I used to
[00:01:24] actually have a rationalization for this or an excuse for this and what I would say is
[00:01:31] there's there's a difference in leadership when you're leading conscripts
[00:01:36] instead of volunteers and so as leadership moved away from or military leadership and that
[00:01:45] by the way when you go back in time it's not just military leadership because what are the
[00:01:48] people the people are surfs and peasants and they're being led by these kings
[00:01:53] with divine power so but as time went by it's like okay so that's why the leadership principle
[00:02:01] might not really fit maybe that's why it changed but then I started thinking about that
[00:02:06] what if you go ahead and actually let those things play out right and actually
[00:02:14] that question has been answered right that's what history is and what happens is
[00:02:19] if you're executing people if you're not treating people the right way as leaders what happens
[00:02:24] eventually what do you get you get a revolution you get people to come after you and take you
[00:02:32] out of power and look just like we talk about you can get people on board for a little while right
[00:02:38] if I have you know 5,000 soldiers and they see me execute two people that didn't follow my orders
[00:02:44] they're going to follow my orders for a little while right maybe for a long time maybe since
[00:02:50] that extremely measure maybe they'll follow my orders for a year they'll just live in fear
[00:02:54] but when that opportunity arrives for them to step up and take that power away from you they're
[00:03:01] going to do it so what we see play out and then the other side so now we go to the
[00:03:08] side of okay so I'm going to take care of my people that's what I'm going to do but just like we say
[00:03:15] that doesn't mean we caught a lot of people because if we caught a lot of people then they're
[00:03:19] they're soft and they destroy themselves they they fall apart so and we see that play out
[00:03:28] in the world when a society gets too soft they can no longer survive so even in ancient times
[00:03:37] with conscripts and peasants and serves and slaves if you let things play out the leadership
[00:03:43] principles still actually apply and and then I started thinking about tactics which this is
[00:03:50] another thing that I used to sort of I used to I used to sort of say the same thing about tactics
[00:03:57] which is hey you know the principles on the battlefield they don't change until you go before
[00:04:05] the machine gun right or the at least the gun right because that's that's where you start to talk
[00:04:11] about covered move and that's where it really plays into plays into how you're going to fight
[00:04:17] but then if you adjust your perspective a little bit if we're fighting with spears and we're
[00:04:26] in a failanks guess what I've got my shield I'm holding my shield up it protects the left
[00:04:32] part of my body and it protects the right part of the person to my left and I'm being protected
[00:04:39] covered by the person on my right and what we're going to do is cover for each other as we advance
[00:04:44] with the failanks so we still have to look out for each other teamwork still absolutely applies
[00:04:51] and then I was thinking about the fact that you know here's a here's a military principle
[00:05:02] that I'm just trying to think of things that don't apply right well in modern combat
[00:05:07] we follow rule of dispersion meaning we want to be spread apart we don't want to be too close together
[00:05:13] so that's obviously completely contrary to the idea of being in a failanks where we're
[00:05:17] going to get as close to weekend we're going to keep tight when we move forward but if you change
[00:05:20] your perspective just a little bit you and this is this is one of those doctrinal terms that I was
[00:05:28] able to uncover because of what I used to tell guys is hey if you're alone on the battlefield
[00:05:33] you're going to die if you get too far away from your element the other element you can't support
[00:05:39] each other that's what cover move is so if you're too far away you can't support each other and you
[00:05:44] will get killed because if we're alone we die and that that doctrinal term that when I found it
[00:05:52] I used to get these beautiful satisfaction satisfactory moments in my life where I would have
[00:05:57] an idea and then I would see that it already existed and and that doctrinal term that I would then
[00:06:03] walk around as if I knew it you know as if it was just you know but it's called supporting distance
[00:06:09] so you Dave shouldn't take your squad beyond where my range the web the range of my weapons
[00:06:18] and then when you start to talk about that that means you know communications as well if I don't
[00:06:22] get you know communications with you then I can't support you if my weapons can't reach out and touch
[00:06:27] and give you support then we're not in supporting distance and that's too far away what does that mean
[00:06:31] you just change your perspective a little bit and dispersion which is positive but if you get too far
[00:06:38] apart it's negative so these lessons are the same over time and yet we still have to teach
[00:06:51] because we still make mistakes and when we learn things from a different angle and even reading
[00:06:57] a document yesterday that's thousands or the last podcast that's a document thousands of years old
[00:07:02] you'd think yourself that after thousands of years thousands of years we would be talking about
[00:07:10] these leadership principles in the most commonly known way that everybody just like you know
[00:07:18] I couldn't have written extreme ownership because people would have been just you know saying hey
[00:07:22] no kidding dude what are you talking about this is this is part of the fabric of life
[00:07:27] but these things aren't they're they're not they're not the fabric of life they're they just seem
[00:07:35] to need to be rediscovered over and over again which is which is horrible but one thing I think allows
[00:07:42] us to learn them in a more complete way is seeing them from different angles from other experiences
[00:07:48] and today we're going to take a look at combat lessons which you know and that's the name of the
[00:07:54] document you're you're setting up in a good spot the subtitle it's published in 1944 the subtitle is
[00:08:01] rank and file in combat what they're doing how they are doing it so you know when I see that
[00:08:11] I'm thinking okay we are going to learn something so with that we will bust into this book
[00:08:19] combat lessons number one I've got number two chair will make a pair and send the future
[00:08:28] the introduction of this thing this is one of those things where you get done reading the
[00:08:32] introduction and maybe you don't even have to read anything else because you're just almost there
[00:08:38] introduction the purpose of combat lessons is to give our officers an enlisted men the benefit of
[00:08:44] the battle experiences of others which comes right out of learning you know it says Marine Corps
[00:08:53] to be of maximum benefit these lessons must be disseminated without delay they do not necessarily
[00:08:59] represent the carefully considered views of the war department they do however reflect the actual
[00:09:06] experiences of combat and therefore merit careful merit careful reading for this reason also
[00:09:14] no single issue can cover many of the phases of combat lessons will be drawn from the reports as they
[00:09:21] are received from the theaters of operation and quickly disseminated so that others may apply them
[00:09:26] the suggestions which are made or implied are not intended to change the tactical doctrine
[00:09:31] by which our army has been trained but rather to elaborate their on much of the subject matter
[00:09:38] has been covered in training literature but the comments show that shortcomings continue to
[00:09:44] manifest themselves on the battlefield and then it says this the paramount combat lesson
[00:09:53] learned from every operation is the vital importance of leadership our equipment our supply
[00:10:01] and above all our men are splendid aggressive and determined leadership is the priceless factor
[00:10:10] which inspires a command and upon which all success in battle depends it is responsible for success
[00:10:22] or failure I don't know if I have that thing trademark of leadership is the most important
[00:10:31] thing on the battlefield I don't I don't know if I but I don't know if I could even get a trademark
[00:10:37] right same exact thing same exact thing this is signed by general marshal who's the chief
[00:10:48] staff in the army during World War II he was in World War I first division he was an infantry
[00:10:58] battoon commander in the Philippine American war and he signed in this thing so let's jump into it
[00:11:08] and you're going to see that this is one of the most straightforward documents that built
[00:11:14] well it's straightforward as you can get because all it is basically is quotes from people on the
[00:11:20] front lines that's all this just quotes there's no there's there's there's some little added commentary
[00:11:27] occasionally section one infantry again and again reports from the battlefields confirm the
[00:11:37] importance of leadership in every grade whether it be corporal or kernel hmm other combat lessons are
[00:11:46] important the exercise of leadership in battle is vital leadership has often been defined in theory
[00:11:52] here are some instances of its application or its absence on the battlefield these are
[00:11:58] about a few examples there are many others junior officer in battle captain T captain William T
[00:12:06] Gordon infantry Sicily since November 8th I have had 17 officers in my company
[00:12:14] and I am the only one who started out with it who is left to fight in Tunisia
[00:12:20] the from troops pinned down in the dark I have heard in listed men call out such things as
[00:12:26] where is an officer to lead us we don't want to lie here we want to attack where is an officer
[00:12:35] in each case an officer or officers have risen to the occasion but this never the last shows
[00:12:41] beyond anything else the demand for battle leadership you know it's interesting they've we had a
[00:12:49] redess kind of went off yesterday during EF online talking about the leadership vacuum right
[00:12:57] and knowing when to step up and this is these situations right here you know my immediate
[00:13:05] my immediate thought is if I don't have in listed if I have enlisted people that are calling out you
[00:13:10] know hey where's an officer we want to attack I'm I'm not happy with my training I'm not happy
[00:13:16] with my troops I'm not happy with a job that I did I'm not happy with my performance in
[00:13:20] preparing them for combat because if they need if there's a leadership vacuum and no one
[00:13:24] stepping up they need to step up don't we we had a conversation again that was on EF online yesterday
[00:13:33] where you you just because your in charge doesn't mean you need to talk
[00:13:37] in fact if you don't need to talk then you shouldn't talk if I walk into a room if we're having
[00:13:50] a meeting at echelon front and Jamie our operations director is you know if she's if she's
[00:14:00] putting out the word about what's gonna happen and I go in there and I see that she's got the
[00:14:04] timeline laid out and she told them where's where we need to be at what time and we're getting
[00:14:06] ready for the monster and she's got everything laid out what do I need to say I mean I'm officially
[00:14:12] in charge what do I need to say maybe maybe looks good thank you like maybe so you don't need
[00:14:24] to step up and you know I went into great detail in this and leadership strategy and tactics
[00:14:27] talking about this this leadership vacuum and how it appears sometimes and the real
[00:14:32] nitty gritty techniques that you pay attention to one of the things that you pay attention to is
[00:14:40] if there's a leadership vacuum and no one else knows it they're not ready
[00:14:44] they might not be ready to make it to to follow we know when those there's when they don't sense
[00:14:52] it when they're just kind of sitting oh we're doing okay and you say hey we need to move
[00:14:56] your immediate response might be why wait what are you talking about they haven't
[00:15:01] sensed the leadership vacuum they don't know that there's a problem so sometimes you hesitate
[00:15:05] just a little bit longer let everyone feel that whore feel that lack of leadership and then when
[00:15:13] you step in there with a command boom they're waiting for it they're waiting for it and that is an
[00:15:19] important thing and that's an important it's an important dichotomy I'm sorry I have to say it's
[00:15:25] important dichotomy is that yes there will be many many times when you as a leader don't have to say
[00:15:32] anything and there will be many many times where your team is absolutely waiting and begging
[00:15:41] to be told hey this is what we need to do now
[00:15:45] back to the book a company officer must build a legend about himself he must take calculated
[00:15:57] risks he must on the other hand do what he expects his men to do he must always dig in
[00:16:03] always take cover his men must know that when he ducks they must duck on the other hand they
[00:16:09] must not believe that when the officer ducks they must run away the officer must come through
[00:16:17] every barrage and bombing with a sheepish grin and a rye remark masterly understatement of hardship
[00:16:27] and danger endured plus a grin always pays dividends yeah we got ambushed
[00:16:38] my first deployment to Iraq and I was in vehicle two and the tail end because we were driving
[00:16:45] fast at night and everything and they got and I saw I mean I saw it's getting ambushed but we were
[00:16:50] going fast it was on up we were on a highway south of Baghdad and you know I'm looking at this point
[00:16:58] we were we were we would face not forward we would face out the sides and so you know I see
[00:17:02] RPGs going over and exploding and trace your fire to and from and but then you know what we just
[00:17:11] you know the lead drivers I pushed through push through which was just kind of what we're going to do
[00:17:15] keep going and then the shooting stops and we're still driving and then my my chief who is in the
[00:17:25] rear vehicle which is purposely set up that way because that way if you have to reverse you've got
[00:17:29] you know your lead your your your most senior leader in listed leaders in the back he's going to
[00:17:34] take and also if something goes wrong he's going to assess so he's back there and you know he says
[00:17:42] he's they got they got you know those RPGs were close the lock close to him that they were to me
[00:17:47] he comes up he's like hey start which you know first of all he rarely would call me sir you know
[00:17:52] but he's like hey sir you know we got ambushed back here and I could hear his voice he's a little freaked out
[00:17:58] and I waited a solid you know like 10 seconds and then I came up and said Roger
[00:18:07] now what's it you know that was we got down to where we were going all like oh Roger you know
[00:18:12] so yeah I like this thing of you know hey just a little grin a rye remark
[00:18:20] would be good it's kind of like when your kid falls down yes exactly like when your kid falls down
[00:18:25] and then he looks at you kind of like what are we doing here we crying we whatever and then yeah
[00:18:30] you know no big deal kind of a thing we're laughing yeah we're laughing you know I used to say like oh
[00:18:36] that was awesome nice yeah you're out this j-how you're lag it's going to bleed
[00:18:44] yeah my kid came home yesterday just blood everywhere he hit the reef you were so proud
[00:18:57] yeah no it's just you know he's just covered in blood and like yeah I'll re-forget you yeah
[00:19:04] for sure the barnacles what it is out here in California the the reefs are just rock it's not
[00:19:09] coral like you always hear about the coral reefs with the razors this is just rocks but they
[00:19:14] have barnacles on it if you go touch a barnacle they're sharp and if you fall and you scrape
[00:19:19] against them you're getting cut open you're gonna be bleeding everywhere but do not come into the
[00:19:23] house with the blood is the main level of the story get the hose get take care of business
[00:19:30] next section this is an interesting one and this really shows you
[00:19:36] this is one of those things where you think you know the world is different this was a different time
[00:19:45] this section says hate your enemy our men do not ordinarily hate they must hate
[00:19:55] they are better soldiers when they hate they must not frat nice with prisoners must not give them
[00:20:01] cigarettes and food the moment they are taken hate can be taught men by meticulous example
[00:20:09] the Rangers are so taught that's a different world but yeah that is not in any modern army
[00:20:19] publications and then you think about you know world war two you think about what those guys
[00:20:28] were going into you think about what you had to get but the mindset you had to bring out in people
[00:20:34] when they were in a landing craft and they were gonna go land on tarua or iwo jima or normandy
[00:20:43] you got a you got a dig deep it's an interesting it's an interesting comment
[00:20:49] where we are we're at total war just so everyone doesn't freak out this isn't taught anymore
[00:21:00] and i will say this it's not taught anymore right now but we better remember this
[00:21:07] because if the world we could get to a place where this is needed again i'm sorry to report
[00:21:15] what i hope you don't i hope we can always be going into wars saying yeah it's a small element of
[00:21:21] people and they've got some bad feelings and they've got some reasons for their their
[00:21:28] anger towards us but we need to go and show them that we're a benevolent group and we can help them
[00:21:33] move on those are all that's great hopefully we fight wars like that hopefully we won't have to
[00:21:38] fight anymore wars where the doctrine is being adjusted to get us to hate our enemy
[00:21:52] next one leaders in front
[00:21:56] staff sergeant Richard E. Deeland infantry Sicily we want our captains out front
[00:22:03] we don't much care about the position of our battalion commander that's it that's all that's
[00:22:08] a whole note keep them moving
[00:22:17] operation report seven tharmysicely during an attack officers and noncommission officers must
[00:22:21] never allow men to lie prone and and passive under enemy fire they must be required to move
[00:22:28] forward if this is at all possible if movement is absolutely impossible have the troops at least
[00:22:35] open fire the act of firing induces self confidence in attacking troops the familiar expression
[00:22:45] dig or die has been greatly overworked attacking troops must not be allowed to dig in until they have
[00:22:53] secured their final objective if they dig in when momentarily stopped by enemy fire it will take
[00:23:00] dynamite to blast them from their holes and resume the advance this is another thing and we're
[00:23:07] going to get into some of this there's another element again where you get to total war
[00:23:16] and and that's what that's what that's what that's what these things are leaning towards we're
[00:23:19] in a totally different situation you know this is this is an existential war where if we don't win
[00:23:25] America's not going to exist freedom will not exist in the world
[00:23:33] nco leadership staff sergeant Robert J. Camp platoon sergeant infantry Sicily
[00:23:39] nco leadership is important leaders nco's an officer should be taken to an OP for terrain instruction
[00:23:46] and study before an attack this has been possible in my outfit about one fourth of the time we have
[00:23:52] what is called an orders group which consists of that group of officers and nco's that must
[00:23:57] be assembled for instruction before any tactical move simple clear concise orders get people together
[00:24:04] get face to face with them look at the terrain show them what they're seeing show them where they're
[00:24:10] going to move to and this seems real obvious and yet this guy is saying hey you better do it
[00:24:26] keep your mission in mind Colonel eb fayer field artillery observer with fifth army
[00:24:32] Italy difficulty was experienced in making patrol leaders realized the importance of bringing back
[00:24:39] information by a specified hour in time to be a value patrols often returned after encountering
[00:24:44] resistance without accomplishing their mission sending them back to accomplish their mission
[00:24:50] despite their fatigue seem to be the most effective solution to the training problem involved
[00:24:55] although the information required often arrived to late and then this other guy says this is
[00:25:03] Lieutenant Colonel TF Bogart infantry and if actually Dave I know you haven't heard this yet
[00:25:10] I went on kind of a massive tangent the other day on the last podcast about
[00:25:16] seeing some of the seal machine gunners and just how entuned they were with their weapons and
[00:25:24] the great lengths that they would go to develop their own personal individual standard operating
[00:25:31] procedures so that they're working that thing like a pain or works a brush and just I said if
[00:25:40] if I could take videos and there's two guys in particular that that I was actually went through
[00:25:44] seal training with both of them and then I ended up in Patons with them at seal team one back in the
[00:25:49] day and if I had videos of them assaulting through targets with their M60 machine guns and the
[00:25:58] the the incredible smoothness which which they would handle the weapon and open up the feed tray
[00:26:07] and slap out extra links and pull out the new belt and slap feet just it would look beautiful
[00:26:13] and I was like that if if we could if you could post those videos no one would want to go to
[00:26:17] war with America they know people like that are out there and it's not and obviously it's not just
[00:26:22] seal machineners it's like every it's like there is a pocket of every every sector of the military
[00:26:29] where there are people that is what they are doing that's who they are yeah there's there's a
[00:26:37] version of that in everything for the people that they kind of fall in love with what they're doing
[00:26:43] and when they just fall in love with whatever their job is I would just kind of remarking as you
[00:26:48] go through these they're said in a way that I can't think of anything else to say other than
[00:26:53] yeah yeah do that that's really good and that the way he said is is is right and I'm kind
[00:26:58] of rocking my brain like how can I create some context around this like no that's that's it that's
[00:27:02] pretty good so I think I'm just going to sit here for the next hour listen to you just repeat
[00:27:07] with these guys have said but I mean the thing that's crazy about it is they seem so obvious and
[00:27:12] that's like you said earlier is in some ways it's a little bit disheartening at how often
[00:27:17] they need to be repeated because the way they're saying it isn't really that complex like man that's
[00:27:23] that's as clear as anybody could say it do you think you take a statement and this goes back
[00:27:30] to what we were talking about as far as I'm a leader if I walk into a room and I sit through the
[00:27:34] brief enough and needs to be said I'm not going to say anything if someone takes of something like
[00:27:41] a fundamental principle of combat cover move right and they say okay but I'm going to be
[00:27:46] expanding on that a little bit and then they expand on it and then someone else expands on that
[00:27:51] expansion then someone else expands on that expansion and the next thing you know you don't even you
[00:27:56] can't you can't see cover move anymore become something else for sure that the the the the the
[00:28:03] complex of those things that's I think why these things are so powerful I was even right now
[00:28:07] the little notes to myself of what was my version of what you were just saying I wrote down like
[00:28:12] we we had the phrase mutual support that's what we called it in an airplanes we had to apply
[00:28:17] mutual support to each other it's cover move 100 just cover move it's all it is and
[00:28:22] technology is sort of redefined where we would need to be to apply that mutual support
[00:28:30] but the principle hasn't changed but if you're not carefully to get two wrapped up around this
[00:28:34] piece of technology allows me to get to this range over time you lose the idea that all that really
[00:28:39] matters is that you and I work closely enough together that I can cover you and you can cover me
[00:28:44] and those roles will go back and forth in some sort of unknown it's not predetermined it's just
[00:28:49] gonna happen and the better we are the more naturally it happens but all it is is mutual support
[00:28:53] and I remember sitting and breathing like hang on are you just saying you want me to say a
[00:28:56] certain distance away from you so I can help you with it and when we interact with other aircraft
[00:29:00] hey just say that and if I it's trading too because if I get it wrong we can just come back and
[00:29:05] debrief it it's okay but you have spent like nine minutes talking about the nuances of that
[00:29:09] when there's no way to predict and I've lost sight of what you're really trying to tell me which is
[00:29:12] don't get too far away man check the that just made me think I was up with an air wing in
[00:29:20] Fallen and I remember I don't even this is this is definitely one of my early sort of
[00:29:27] grasping of the idea of cover move was we would put a squad on the ground and when we get
[00:29:37] extracted when we put on the ground or we get extracted I remember briefing the helicopter
[00:29:42] pilots and I don't know if I learned it from them or I don't know but I remember saying hey
[00:29:47] and I actually have I have a book that I wrote I have a book that I wrote when I was at
[00:29:52] Seal team when I was a communicator it's called communications and a lot of it I wrote it
[00:29:58] with a body of mine who is another communicator and he wrote a lot of this technical stuff about
[00:30:04] how to operate each individual radio and I just wrote my section I mean I helped him a little bit
[00:30:11] with that very little because he was smarter than me than so he wrote you know how to do the
[00:30:16] little things but I wrote all this stuff about hey when you're calling in a helicopter here's
[00:30:22] what you need to do and I'm going to find this because I have this book I have it and one of the
[00:30:28] things I said was leave one helicopter at altitude to provide cover fire for the helicopter that's
[00:30:34] on the ground and here I was a new guy kind of thinking that I had a little something you know
[00:30:40] had a little something for these guys and that's one of the initial kind of thoughts around or
[00:30:45] me starting to realize that cover move wasn't just that that really was the fundamental of everything
[00:30:51] that we were doing and the other thing that I scratched down when when I talk about people you're
[00:30:58] talking about people being really good at their jobs I was doing some kind of an exercise at the
[00:31:02] camp Pendleton and somehow we got linked into a mortar a Marine Corps mortar element and
[00:31:09] bro these guys were doing Iads immediate action drills with their mortars and you know I just
[00:31:18] remember watching them and I don't know what I don't know how you put words I don't know what you
[00:31:26] know they were you know they're freaking 18 years old and they hear you know contact right
[00:31:32] and then boom a guy's slapping down the base plate the guy's perfect as they're
[00:31:36] spitting on because they're doing a boom and they're getting rounds out like in so fast I don't know how
[00:31:42] fast it was but so fast accurate rounds and then immediately correcting bracketing and they're good
[00:31:48] and they're on target and you just think you know what we're good America's good
[00:31:57] alright Lieutenant Colonel TF Boger greater emphasis must be placed on
[00:32:03] inculcating in junior officers and NCOs the will to accomplish assigned missions despite opposition
[00:32:11] a few accounts of patrol actions illustrate this point and he goes through these a
[00:32:15] reconnaissance patrol consisting of a platoon who sent out about 1900 one evening to determine the
[00:32:19] strength of any if any of Germans in two small towns the first about two miles away and the second
[00:32:24] about three miles farther on the patrol reached the outskirts of the first town in Metton the
[00:32:28] town in who told them there were no Germans in the town and then started to lead the patrol
[00:32:32] in to town a few hundred yards further farther a German machine gun opened up the Italian
[00:32:37] disappeared three of the patrol were killed and the others dispersed they drifted back to
[00:32:40] our battalion during the night and it was not until nearly daylight that the practically
[00:32:46] valueless report of action was received not the slightest conception of the strength of the
[00:32:51] first town was obtained and no information of the second town it was necessary to send out another
[00:32:57] patrol with the same mission so that's that's number one and again I think this is this is just
[00:33:05] shows you that this is a different time and they're like hey you took some casualties you got three
[00:33:09] guys killed you it doesn't matter you got it you still got to go figure out what the strength was
[00:33:13] in there obviously got some Germans in there and by the way there's another town two miles away
[00:33:16] you need to go get on that too that is not a consistent attitude with the current
[00:33:21] operations right where you go oh yeah we took three casualties but we're continuing down here
[00:33:27] on this reconnaissance mission by the way freaking legit two a patrol sent out with the mission
[00:33:33] of determining the condition of a road especially bridges over a three mile stretch to the front
[00:33:38] when this patrol had covered about a mile at ran into a motorized German patrol two the Americans
[00:33:42] were killed and the patoon leader claimed six Germans the patrol leader forgot his mission
[00:33:47] returned to the paty on cp with the remainder of his patrol and had to be sent out again with a
[00:33:51] great loss in time getting the information desired this dude's out there gets into contact with a
[00:33:57] motorized German patrol has two guys killed killed six Germans comes back to base he's probably
[00:34:03] totally amped and feeling like he did a great job and they say hey did you complete your mission?
[00:34:09] no oh Roger that go back out these are hard men yeah last one on several occasions patrols
[00:34:18] were sent out on reconnaissance missions with instruction to get certain information by a specific time
[00:34:22] the hour would pass and sometimes several others without a word from the patrol sometimes it was
[00:34:26] due to difficulties encountered sometimes to mistakes and computation of time and space
[00:34:30] factors but in all cases there was no good reason why some information didn't get back by the
[00:34:36] specified time and here's I said there was some occasional comments amplifying information so
[00:34:47] here's the comment comment the failure of patrols in these instances stems from a lack of
[00:34:52] appreciation on the part of NCOs and junior officers of their missions in patrol actions as in
[00:35:00] the operations of larger units the mission must be kept upper most in the minds of all ranks
[00:35:05] and no action should be undertaken which does not contribute directly to the accomplishment of that mission
[00:35:13] conversely no incidental or inadvertent contact with the enemy should deter or divert patrols
[00:35:20] from the complete accomplishment of their missions to include compliance with all instructions given
[00:35:25] where humanly possible these guys are freaking just legit that's because this is total war yeah
[00:35:34] that's because this is an existential war there's there's so much insulation that we
[00:35:42] we sometimes try to create and I remember feeling it on my deployment to Ramadad which is
[00:35:46] very different than my deployments in an aircraft and I even remember feeling the sense of wanting
[00:35:52] to insulate my own family from what I was doing that feeling of just wanting to keep them insulated
[00:35:56] from the reality when I see all that did to balance with from my wife is made it made it kind of
[00:36:02] worse because she had to create something in her mind and she had to try to piece it together
[00:36:06] which she simply couldn't do but that need to insulate if that ends up on the inside with your own
[00:36:12] folks and that becomes most obvious when you start losing people and the question of hey how
[00:36:19] much time are we gonna take how much downtime are we gonna take and I'm listening to this
[00:36:26] and it's like that's not even a there's not we're not even that conversation isn't even happening
[00:36:31] we're not we're not talking about hey what are we gonna do to acknowledge what has happened here
[00:36:36] which of course you want to do but this is not an option and the leadership isn't even
[00:36:42] conflent that that's funny the way he said that my mind immediately went like I want to write that
[00:36:46] differently instead of these staff and CEOs and the junior officers not understanding it it's
[00:36:50] the leadership has failed to explain to them the context that they should understand and we actually
[00:36:56] aren't doing our jobs I might have got ahead of myself it looks like you're laughing something
[00:37:01] I'm laughing even when he said that it was like no that's not what happened
[00:37:05] yeah I'm laughing because you can see my note right there says ownership question mark
[00:37:09] exact same thing is you know when when you blame your NCOs and your junior officers
[00:37:15] because they don't appreciate their mission yeah they don't understand it
[00:37:19] well guess what who's fault is that all day long it's my fault as a leader for letting those
[00:37:23] junior officers go out there and I'm not sitting over here trying to pick apart the things they're
[00:37:26] saying I'm just picturing every time every time I placed a demand on guys on my team that the
[00:37:32] understood it wasn't even hard for them to step up I mean it was a challenging situation but
[00:37:37] if they understand why we were just stepping up and making things happen when it was hard no
[00:37:40] factor my 18-year-old Marines were gone no factor but if I failed to give them that and then
[00:37:47] something difficult happened that created some friction and some some doubt that was a much
[00:37:51] harder problem to get past if they didn't understand why they needed to get past it and that was
[00:37:55] always always on me always I or it was on the 18-year-old kid on his very first deployment
[00:38:02] that one of his closest friends had just gotten killed it's either on him or it's on me it
[00:38:06] is not even hard but if you gave him that context what they could overcome an endure
[00:38:12] I don't mean to say that it wasn't hard maybe that's the wrong way to describe it but boy they
[00:38:15] did it every single time without hesitation yeah that's that's the whole US military even though
[00:38:20] you know as I read this in like man these guys were hard but that's what we do in the military you
[00:38:26] take casualties and then you you go you go do your job that's what you do
[00:38:38] next one team up captain William T Gordon infantry Sicily I have found that men in position must
[00:38:43] fight in pairs and order that 50% stay awake is thus easily enforced it bolsters morale
[00:38:50] and nerves rally point in every company attack order a reserve force must be prescribed
[00:38:57] I always do even though sometimes this force consists only of myself and my first sergeant
[00:39:04] often a soldier who a moment before is runaway is converted to a fighter by leadership a reserve
[00:39:09] force gives him a rallying point that's brilliant just having a fallback point even if it's two
[00:39:15] people hey if you got to run away run to here and then who's there the platoon commander in the first
[00:39:20] sergeant like all right buddy here takes a memo get ready because we're gonna rock and roll
[00:39:28] fear is normal Colonel George Taylor infantry Sicily fear of being afraid is the greatest
[00:39:36] obstacle for the new man in battle to overcome there is no reason for shame in being afraid
[00:39:42] men who have had excellent battle records freely admit they are scared stiff and battle
[00:39:47] the important thing is that every soldier must be taught all he needs to know so well that
[00:39:54] battlefield thinking is reduced to a minimum automatic disciplined reactions to battlefield
[00:40:00] problems must be the rule in battle the worst element is mental and nervous exhaustion
[00:40:09] there is no real rest under fire the ability to withstand fire is more important than all the
[00:40:15] knowledge in the world what are you writing down nervous exhaustion yeah the idea that you will
[00:40:26] exhaust yourself and render yourself incapable just by creating the fear in your mind
[00:40:33] but when you don't react what's going you just you and you just I've seen it where people get
[00:40:37] overwhelmed by the moment and they end up doing nothing and they literally exhaust themselves
[00:40:42] in in their own minds by being afraid of what's out there rather than just facing what's out there
[00:40:48] which is extremely hard to do but just the way he wrote that that nervous exhaustion such an
[00:40:54] awesome way to describe what sometimes people do when they're just freaking out of what's happening
[00:40:59] they exhaust themselves into doing nothing I got more than a couple times and
[00:41:07] actually my platoon of my first deployment we went to this outstation it was a special forces
[00:41:14] outstation it was in a rough neighborhood in Baghdad and we got murdered a decent amount that night
[00:41:20] and like the next day let me rephrase that we probably got hit with an Rpg or two
[00:41:30] maybe a rifle fired grenade and then I don't know some number of mortars more than
[00:41:44] more than three or four like this decent right which by the way when you compare to this is just
[00:41:53] nothing it's just nothing and the reason I bring it up because even that one night you know one night
[00:41:59] of receiving some pretty consistent mortar fire was enough that you could see the next day
[00:42:05] guys were on edge guys were legitimately on edge after one night of light mortar attacks
[00:42:15] and that's just crazy and you could see that over time it's what we see in World War One you know
[00:42:23] those awful videos of World War One of guys that had shell shock legit shell shock
[00:42:28] and when we when we covered shot it dawn on here you know you break down people break down
[00:42:35] and it doesn't matter what you say what you do you're telling them you're gonna shoot them if they
[00:42:39] if they deserve and they do it anyways so the ability to withstand fires more important than
[00:42:46] all the knowledge in the world I'll tell you something else I think the ability to withstand fire
[00:42:55] is related to an acceptance of death I mean if you are if you are scared of dying this is going
[00:43:09] to drive you insane yeah I think that's the nervous exhaustion right there you're gonna go insane
[00:43:14] if that's what you think about look man when I got when I got to Ramadi I was afraid of dying
[00:43:23] for a very brief period of time but I was I got there and I I remember I wrote about and
[00:43:30] I remember realizing as I probably was there for you know a little bit I had in some ways the
[00:43:36] benefit of knowing people that had been there knowing knowing what I was going to get myself into
[00:43:39] but when I got there I'm like oh man I'm here now and I remember thinking for a little while like
[00:43:44] oh this maybe maybe this is a bad idea maybe this is a mistake and there was a little bit of fear of dying
[00:43:53] and the time that I spent thinking about that was it was it was exhausting and then
[00:44:01] I you know what yes that might happen I literally considered to myself yep that might happen
[00:44:07] and I got past it and that was the end of it I never lost the idea that it could happen I fully
[00:44:11] understood that but I sort of just stopped thinking about it I didn't stop thinking about it because I
[00:44:15] didn't think it would happen I just stopped thinking about it because it was a kind of a useless
[00:44:19] thing to think about anymore but if you get trapped in that and I remember a small period of time
[00:44:23] of that feeling of like the paranoia that starts to build up of what you can end up creating
[00:44:28] is that you're going to die there's no way to get out of it and that becomes the obsession that you
[00:44:33] think about if you're going to go to combat you have to accept that that might happen and then you
[00:44:38] have to get past that and then go do whatever it is you're going to go do knowing that's a case
[00:44:42] without letting it control you at all but again what I was going to face in my brush with war compared
[00:44:50] to any of this other stuff is kind of crazy yeah there's another end of the spectrum too and I
[00:44:56] think I kind of went back and forth between two mindsets of one is you know what I can I can
[00:45:05] die that'll that could happen tonight and you know what I'm not going to die if it's not going to happen
[00:45:09] but you know whatever watch this I'll stand out here in the street doesn't matter they can't kill me
[00:45:16] I mean in my first deployment to Iraq what did I write on my Humvee door once we got the
[00:45:27] we welded steel steel on there I think I think I wrote I cannot be killed on it
[00:45:34] and my guys made me take it off they were so freaked out they're like oh don't do that man
[00:45:41] that's a total of jakes don't do it don't do it so and you know even talking to Dean Latt
[00:45:47] Dean Latt you know going into Taroa it's like oh did you think you were going to get killed and he's like
[00:45:53] no of course not what do you think about week yeah and that might be the greatest story of all time
[00:46:00] when his buddy went he pretended like he was dying his buddy pretend like he was dying and
[00:46:06] had his his friend the the chaplain come over and he was reading in this last right and then he
[00:46:12] starts laughing all right next section is about Sicily Italy and act too
[00:46:21] night attacks and they they get into attu which is that the battle up on the illusion island
[00:46:31] the island of a two two thousand nine hundred Japanese soldiers
[00:46:37] two thousand eight hundred and seventy two of them killed 28 captured surprise saves lives
[00:46:51] major John R. Patterson infantry Sicily the mission of our battalion after landing
[00:46:57] itself south of Gala in Sicily was to capture the airport at Biscari the battalion used the
[00:47:06] silent night attack three rifle companies were in line with heavy machine heavy weapons company
[00:47:11] in reserve to reach its line of departure the battalion crossed two ridges using control two control
[00:47:17] lines then climb the cliff at the airport to the light of departure all this was done silently
[00:47:21] under the cover of darkness the attack was started with a hand grenade we didn't fire until the
[00:47:26] Germans counterattack when we went with we went in with bayonets and hand grenades and caught some
[00:47:33] of the Germans undressing and dressing the tanks fired their guns but wouldn't close on us
[00:47:39] the enemy knew their men were all about so they fired their machine guns and rifles
[00:47:44] mainly into the air our attack lasted about 30 minutes we had no casualties during the attack
[00:47:54] two were killed during the counter attacks so that that that silent option I was do we were doing
[00:48:02] training I was at team two I was an assistant platoon commander they captured one of our
[00:48:08] seals they had him up and this is an urban combat training they had him up in the third floor of
[00:48:14] this building and they're telling you know yelling scream and so he's up there they're going to kill
[00:48:19] me and all this and they're waiting for us and they're waiting for us to do what we do which is
[00:48:23] you know and on the first floor clear the first floor moved the second floor moved the third floor
[00:48:27] clear the foot forget the rumor he is and I'm like you know silence we patrolled out we took the
[00:48:35] fire escape up directly to the third floor didn't clear any of the other rooms and went right
[00:48:40] into where because we could see where he was we could hear where he was so we knew he isn't like one
[00:48:43] of one or two or three rooms and we caught those those up four guys completely off guard they're
[00:48:50] they're they're literally looking out the windows trying to see where we were and we walked in
[00:48:55] shot them all in the back rescued our guy but the what's important here is any goes into like a
[00:49:04] little bit a little bit more detail but you because we're being quiet you have to have good
[00:49:10] control lines of where you're going to let people get to hand the hand fighting
[00:49:18] Captain Gerald infantry at Biscari airport I used my trench knife twice one of my man got three
[00:49:27] with his bayonet he shot one then another tried to grab his bayonet he got this one with his bayonet
[00:49:33] that got him started so he got three in before it was all over
[00:49:36] small arms against arm we found that the the 30 caliber AP pierces enemy armored
[00:49:51] half tracks at close ranges that's something that everybody should know
[00:49:59] put to an action lieutenant hallrich infantry when the enemy machine guns opened up with
[00:50:04] three grenades the machine guns pulled back out of grenade fire then NCOs and Browning
[00:50:11] automatic riflemen went up over the embankment through and beyond the initial enemy positions
[00:50:15] eventually we had a base of fire about 20 men including the bars the BARs during the enemy counter
[00:50:22] attacks we did pretty well with other fire two led was flying fast and fiercely at 20 to 30 yards
[00:50:28] we fire at flashes in this kind of firing you learn to fire and roll to one side or they will
[00:50:34] soon get you I read the whole thing just to get that last little part if you're trooper out there
[00:50:39] if you're in the military you shoot and then you move because if you pop your head up again in
[00:50:45] that same spot you're going to take one
[00:50:47] common in all these accounts of a successful night attack by a small unit the application
[00:50:58] of the following principles is worthy of note close control during the approach by the use of
[00:51:03] control lines adjusted to difficult terrain features designation of a line of departure as close
[00:51:09] to the objective as possible and after all major terrain obstacles have been passed this is a
[00:51:17] essential to assure proper organization of the unit immediately prior to the so you can
[00:51:21] to apply that right there so many business things right there like you get everything ready to go
[00:51:26] you get past all the main obstacles once everyone's passed the main obstacles then you execute
[00:51:31] attainment of the vital surprise use of the bayonet and hand grenades with no weapon firing
[00:51:38] permitted it may often be advisable to prohibit the loading of rifles and for anyone that doesn't
[00:51:43] understand why these guys are talking about using grenades so much grenades do not give away your
[00:51:47] position neither do bayonets so you can hug grenades and no one knows where it just came from there's
[00:51:52] no one to shoot at there's no muscle flush and so it's a great weapon when you are attacking from
[00:51:58] like a clandestine situation where you don't want the enemy to know where you are you so front
[00:52:05] of attack only any attempt at development tends to cause disorder and confusion note that one
[00:52:11] puttune which had advanced ahead of the general lines was pulled back to conform so they're saying
[00:52:17] frontal attack only and what they're saying is don't try and surround because if you try and
[00:52:22] surround people at night and you're gonna end up on opposite sides and you're gonna end up in a
[00:52:25] blue on blue situation I don't think that they mean don't set up flank situations
[00:52:35] a definite and limited objective capture of an airfield in this case in which the entire front
[00:52:40] could be covered by manpower rather than firepower all that's good these are the major elements
[00:52:45] of successful night attack brought out in the foregoing account others not mentioned but which
[00:52:49] were undoubtedly contributing contributing factors of the operation are careful planning in my new
[00:52:55] detail precise specific orders careful arrangement for maintenance of direction throw daylight
[00:53:02] reconnaissance by as many of the leaders as possible use of compound use of compact columns
[00:53:08] in the approach so the reason that they're saying precise specific orders that's different
[00:53:12] that's different than what we normally talk about the reason is because you are attempting to
[00:53:17] make this happen without having the enemy get a vote so once the enemy gets a vote if you
[00:53:25] two specific things change now we don't know what to do but we are setting this thing up to be
[00:53:30] very specific and we should be able to get to our last point of concealment we should be in our
[00:53:36] positions everything should be good once that attack starts you know you still want to keep them
[00:53:42] constrained because it's nighttime yeah the context of the night pieces also I think really
[00:53:49] important because it seems what he's what they're saying is that there's a lot more close control
[00:53:54] under a night attack requires a whole lot of things because when the chaos ensues under an attack
[00:53:59] you were denied something that you usually rely on so heavily and when you were reading that
[00:54:06] and again it's under the context of a night assault it's different it's different at night
[00:54:11] you told a story long time ago that I've used a bunch and there's a version of it I have from
[00:54:15] flying which was when we started using NVG's the way we described the use of NVG's why we would use
[00:54:22] NVG's in airplane is the most simplest way to describe it is it allows us to use daytime tactics
[00:54:29] at night which before you just couldn't do you actually you want the least amount of
[00:54:34] close control is possible you need to have some but in the day you don't need it as much because
[00:54:38] you can rely on being able to see each other and when you started to see people like reject the idea
[00:54:44] of things that allowed you to maneuver in different ways using technology because why would I do
[00:54:50] it like that the night creates an environment that's really hard to operate in and if you're going to
[00:54:58] be successful at night you have to do a lot more things than you would normally do during the day which
[00:55:02] is why some of the technology pieces are so nice to allow you to do it but even with that you can't
[00:55:07] pretend like the two are the same and the detail is going through I'm all thinking like yeah you
[00:55:12] wouldn't do that during the day you have to do that at night yeah yeah and now that we're talking
[00:55:16] about it when you're talking about this size element because I'm saying hey you could still set up
[00:55:21] flanks but if it's nighttime you got a big element I actually wouldn't I would set up a complete
[00:55:26] online assault we would all be together we would all be within you know communication distance
[00:55:31] and we're going to not make those mistakes and we're going to know where everyone is because
[00:55:35] when you're online you've got free fire and eight or at in 180 degrees ahead of you it's an
[00:55:41] awesome thing that's going to that's going to that's going to overwhelm or make the idea of having
[00:55:50] another element on the flank obsolete because you're firepower so unrestricted when you're online
[00:55:57] and that's you know it's like you can either solve online or you can set up an al that's it
[00:56:01] and then there's these little other variations where you can start to develop an
[00:56:04] development is very very dangerous and you better have some serious control measures in place if
[00:56:10] you're going to try that very serious control measures including up to an including pieces of
[00:56:15] terrain that actually prevent you from having a blue on blue because there's a freaking mountain
[00:56:21] or a ravine or whatever that prevents you from getting shot by your own guys.
[00:56:31] All right this this little section here starts to jump into really specific stuff knocking out
[00:56:36] pill boxes and then it gets into individual initiative. The following cases of individual initiative
[00:56:46] and heroism during the Soleno landing were reported by the infantry.
[00:56:55] Sergeant Manuel Gonzalez upon landing discovered the position of a German 88 in the sand dunes near
[00:57:01] the beach this gun was firing on the assault boats as they landed the sergeant crept around the position
[00:57:07] under machine gun fire which said is pack on fire and despite the hand grenades being thrown at him
[00:57:14] he then calmly tossed several hand grenades into a gun placement killing the crew and blowing up their ammunition
[00:57:23] yeah you're going to see each one of these these these are talking about individual initiative what they are is just
[00:57:30] just pure heroics. Sergeant John Y McGill jumped on an enemy tank and dropped the hand grenade
[00:57:38] into the open turret killing the crew private Clayton I Tallman on hill 424 observed that the
[00:57:44] enemy was attempting an development of the left flank of his company taking up a better position
[00:57:50] he killed an enemy machine gun crew with three carefully aimed shots in a few minutes he repeated
[00:57:55] the same action when another enemy machine gun crew appeared he alone protected the left flank of
[00:57:59] the company until the rest of the platoon arrived private barel b right discovered that he and a group of
[00:58:09] five men have been cut off from his company he immediately organized them into a defensive position on a
[00:58:14] small no they repuls three rushes by the enemy who were attempting to establish machine gun
[00:58:18] positions on the flank private right was completely in command of the situation giving orders and
[00:58:23] shouting encouragement yeah I was going off on that last podcast about having team members that
[00:58:32] are going to step up and just make things happen. Staff Sergeant Quillin H McGmitchen was shot in
[00:58:42] the chest and shoulder and shoulder before his assault boat reached the shore I say that again shot
[00:58:49] in the chest and shoulder before he reaches the shore have you read a shoulder injury echo Charles
[00:58:56] yes yeah we were like ah you know I really can't do anything right or you hurt you know you get
[00:59:02] somebody with that poles that are pack muscle or whatever yeah what do they do for the next six months
[00:59:07] say they they sit around and drink warm milk what does it mention do well when the boat
[00:59:13] reached the beach the landing ramp stuck and would not drop the sergeant despite his wounds
[00:59:17] kicked the ramp loose and then let his section ashore continuing to wreck their operations
[00:59:22] until he received a fatal shot from enemy gunfire. Pre assault you get shot in the chest and
[00:59:34] shoulder when you get shot in the shoulder you're not using that arm and then you get shot in the
[00:59:39] chest as well arm and moved ahead in the face of the intense fire and cleared the beach as
[00:59:49] soon as possible lieutenant carry soon after reaching the shore was fired upon by three Germans
[00:59:53] armed with machine pistols he returned fire but his car being jammed after killing one of the
[00:59:58] of his adversaries he then grasped his weapon as a club and advancing in the face of their fire
[01:00:07] clubbed the second then he physically tackled subdued and disarmed the third German taking him prisoner
[01:00:22] the ability the individual soldier to grasp the implications of the situation and take the necessary
[01:00:28] action should be fully exploited the results of combat are the fruits of combined efforts of
[01:00:35] individuals every soldier should be indoctrinated with the idea that his individual action
[01:00:42] may be the decisive factor in the final result
[01:00:51] leader substrategy in tactic every guy in the cartoon is the most important guy
[01:00:54] true statement true statement that that comment is so I mean it is so powerful that they can
[01:01:05] that they understand that what they do individually can change the entire outcome of the entire
[01:01:13] operation and what's crazy when I'm listening to these these stories of just like you described
[01:01:18] just total acts of heroism they called it initiative and heroly what's crazy about that is for
[01:01:24] the ones that have ended up metal of honor or these ones that end up telling their stories
[01:01:28] they all say the exact same thing and I'm paraphrasing but they all say I don't feel like a hero
[01:01:34] I just doing my job that's what they all say they just have this simple way of describing
[01:01:39] I wasn't doing it to be a hero I needed to take out that machine gunest
[01:01:44] Tom five's like I didn't think of it in like any heroic I needed to blow up that tank so I got out of
[01:01:50] the tank and took her and they downplay it so much that when you're listening to your kind of
[01:01:55] just an all like bro are you kidding me you're a total hero but they never see it like that there's
[01:02:00] like I had to do this my men need me to do this so I just didn't the last thing I was thinking
[01:02:05] about was the right up that I was going to get if I attacked this position and they do things
[01:02:10] that just seem completely superhuman and the way they able to do that is they understand
[01:02:14] that what they do has huge impact on the people around them which is crazy you can teach that
[01:02:19] to a human being yeah imagine if you had a company where every single person inside your company
[01:02:24] thought that each individual action that they had would have an impact on the entire company as a whole
[01:02:30] what if you could indoctrinate and inculcate that idea into your team imagine what that team would be like
[01:02:38] action on actu operations report regimen will combat team to fight the japs in this in this
[01:02:50] country our troops must stick to high ground and not only outflank but out altitude the enemy
[01:02:59] the high ground continuous movement is necessary to keep the spark in an attack
[01:03:04] if a machine gun covers one point then a group not at that point must continue to advance
[01:03:13] when fire is shifted the original group must move even if the platoon is entirely halted
[01:03:20] by the fire of enemy guns then the commitment of additional troop results whereas by proper coordination
[01:03:28] some portion of the platoon can be kept moving and the force committed kept to a minimum that's
[01:03:36] his number one thing is covered move the tendency of lower commanders to commit reserves to early must be
[01:03:46] curved security cannot be over emphasized any movement or group on the battlefield even in a rear
[01:03:53] areas is subject to enemy action in this connection consideration must be given to the protection
[01:03:59] of medical installation at present these are left unprotected without even individual arms for
[01:04:04] the personnel in the event of enemy penetration through our frontline positions it is practically
[01:04:09] certain that these installations will be hit why are they given that lessons because that's exactly
[01:04:13] what happened on like a suicide attack from the japanese aggressive patrolling particularly to maintain
[01:04:19] active content contact is a vital importance it can mean the difference between defeat and victory
[01:04:25] however mere numbers of patrols will not solve the problem special training in patrolling in
[01:04:31] organizing patrols must be initiated commanders must plan to have reasonably fresh men
[01:04:38] available for night contact it is vital to organize patrol activity carefully to ensure that
[01:04:44] all lines are familiar with the roots returning of returning patrols so that the danger of mistaken
[01:04:49] identity in the darkest will be minimized yeah they got the the the japanese on their attack
[01:04:57] made it they broke through and it was fighting in the rear lieutenant general Simon B. Buckner
[01:05:06] commanding general asking department it was apparent that the enemy was particularly vulnerable to
[01:05:11] attack by units of our infantry which pushed forward vigorously while the enemy was held down by
[01:05:16] artillery fire what we call that you cover move those units which had learned to advance closely
[01:05:22] behind their own artillery supporting fire had the greatest success the japs do not like our
[01:05:28] coordinated artillery fire nor do they like our attacks with the bayonet when under fire from
[01:05:34] small arms they stay down in their holes and are easily approached when attacking small groups of
[01:05:41] foxholes our troops were able to keep the japs down by fire from rifles and the browning
[01:05:46] automatic rifle while some of our men approached and drop hang grenades into their holes this
[01:05:50] is our favorite mop up method cover move when about to be run out of a position the japs seem to
[01:05:57] feel it necessary to counter attack these attacks were not well coordinated and were welcomed by
[01:06:02] our troops who were able to shoot down the enemy in great numbers these jap counter attacks were part
[01:06:08] of a suicidal character and were pressed home regardless of losses until practically all the
[01:06:14] counter attack and troops were exterminated the enemy may believe that in such terrain he can
[01:06:22] hold up the advance of an entire battalion with three men and a light machine gun in fact however
[01:06:30] he is critically vulnerable to intelligent action by officers and men who understand the necessity
[01:06:36] for immediate maneuver against small parties of the enemy seeking to hold them up the fact was
[01:06:41] that a small maneuvering that small maneuvering patrols easily disposed of machine gun
[01:06:45] positions on reverse slopes behind mount spurs whereas any tendency to lie down and call for artillery
[01:06:50] support whatever resulted only in tremendous wastage of artillery fire and attempting to seek
[01:06:56] out targets which in fact were inaccessible artillery fire that's an important point so you think
[01:07:01] oh we got a machine gun up there we need a call for fire and now you think about how hard it's
[01:07:07] going to be for the start to lead a hit this place that's bunkered in or they're on the reverse
[01:07:11] slope of a mountain or whatever it's a real problem and yet these guys realize if they just
[01:07:17] aggressively maneuvered on that machine gun they'd be able to take it out the attue action
[01:07:23] likewise indicated that standard japini's infiltration tactics can be offset by a system of
[01:07:29] anti-termite patrols organized behind our lines protecting artillery command posts and supply
[01:07:33] lines wherever troops know that these friendly patrols were behind them fire in a rear will
[01:07:38] mean separate that our patrols are cleaning people up goes into the south Pacific
[01:07:46] talking about the jungle jungle notes aggressive action flexible plant plans
[01:07:50] report of the 43rd division new Georgia aggressive action is necessary never relax the pressure
[01:08:02] never relax the pressure that's a good that's a good just thing to think about every time you wake
[01:08:09] up in the morning never relax the pressure maneuver of small units at risk of temporary loss
[01:08:14] of communications is important plans and orders must be so flexible as to permit prompt maneuver
[01:08:22] change this is another thing where I would feel like I was cheating when I was you know going through
[01:08:27] training and stuff because we would make these really flexible plans and of course the training
[01:08:33] cadre is gonna do things to disrupt your plan and when your plan gets disrupted and it's super
[01:08:37] flexible like I would ever you know go plan be go with plan C no factor never relax the pressure
[01:08:44] it's actually pretty hard did disrupt a plan that's not very rigid you know yeah we didn't have like
[01:08:50] 37 steps that you can interrupt we had a basic idea and some real good ideas how we're gonna maneuver
[01:08:56] and disrupting that's much harder to that that that that that last one was awesome which one
[01:09:03] the the one we talked about never never ever relax pressure yeah like but I think the title that was
[01:09:10] aggressive action flexible plans whatever that title was just that alone obviously the description
[01:09:16] makes it even better but that in and of itself that will solve just that mindset yeah solves
[01:09:22] so many problems in a world anywhere in your world there's a couple things that you need to be aware of
[01:09:29] the way that you have flexible plans is you are religious about making sure everyone understands
[01:09:37] the commanders intent that's if you can do that hey this is what this is the overall thing that
[01:09:43] we're trying to accomplish here's the couple parameters you got to work within other than that make it
[01:09:48] happen yeah get aggressive making it happen because if you just make a flexible plan and you think
[01:09:55] hey you know you guys come in from the west and you guys come in from the south there's all kinds of
[01:09:59] things that go wrong with that plan it's super flexible but no one knows where they can't go where they can't
[01:10:03] go there's no deconfliction set up so you need to think about it the other thing that's interesting
[01:10:08] about aggressive action flexible plans is the more you plan the more detail you get the worse your
[01:10:14] plan becomes now if you come up with a plan in three minutes you probably need a little bit more
[01:10:20] time although I have executed operations where I we planned for 15 minutes my boss asked me that my
[01:10:28] boss said how much time do you guys need to launch this is my first deployment my second
[01:10:32] deployment no one asked me they already knew the answer my first point how much time you guys need
[01:10:36] I was like 15 minutes that's how much time what you're getting at though is the propensity of
[01:10:48] what how the things usually work out do we usually plan too much or not enough it's pretty rare
[01:10:54] that we don't plan enough what typically happens is we overplan an overplan an overplan and
[01:10:58] there's an old saying I don't know if it's just an aviation it's how long do you have to plan
[01:11:02] your mission and the joke is thirty how long do you need to plan your mission and the joke is the
[01:11:06] thirty minutes more than you have and the reason is is we have a propensity to overplan oh it
[01:11:12] says that maybe a nation yeah I thought I made that up you did not make it up unless it was on your
[01:11:17] trip to fall and all of a sudden you're the reason we said and we've been saying that for years and
[01:11:21] the point is kind of what you're getting at is oh if you gave me nine hours planned guess how long
[01:11:25] I'm going to plan nine hours can you underplan yes you absolutely can you can plan for two minutes
[01:11:32] when you actually need to spend some more time but the driver is is what you were saying is hey
[01:11:36] I only need 15 minutes I need to cover the key points the highlights and if you've got a team that's
[01:11:40] well trained they might even recognize you to listen we got a little additional risk here because
[01:11:44] we didn't really have time to dissect this once when we get to this place in the mission we need to be
[01:11:48] a little more aware that we're going to need to be a little more flexible and we have we're
[01:11:52] less aware than we like to be but I know that as opposed to hey let's take three days to plan
[01:11:57] by the time we get to the objective it's a total waste of time because because that mission has
[01:12:00] come and gone most teams that we work with overplan they overthink they over create and then
[01:12:07] when they go out to implement they're either too late or they're so rigid and what they do they can't
[01:12:12] maneuver around so if you're looking for the balance there less is typically more not always not 100
[01:12:19] percent of the time but that's where your bias should be it's kind of like packing right for
[01:12:23] trip kind of the same mindset which is like overpacking people overpack because they think of all
[01:12:30] the different scenarios they're going to need this jacket those socks this shoe and you flip
[01:12:35] flops too for the you see I'm saying mean while you got a washer dryer there you know you don't need
[01:12:39] all that stuff it'd be flexible same same yeah otherwise you got all these suitcases you know
[01:12:44] it's the same mindset is what I'm saying yeah yeah if you underpack but you're flexible
[01:12:52] it's way better yeah maneuver you can maneuver you know yeah it is weird that it's such an
[01:12:58] advantage to come up with a nice flexible plan that everybody knows and it's so easy man that
[01:13:04] the planning the planning what when I call it like the the evolution of planning inside the
[01:13:11] sealed teams you know at one point it was beyond insanity we wrote about it in an extreme
[01:13:18] ownership I mean it was a way Seth and Lave were taught to plan was was mayhem it was it was 150
[01:13:25] slide power points yeah that you know oh it your fonts wrong you follow you that you need to go
[01:13:32] through this branch plan and this other thing over here may when those guys started working with me
[01:13:37] I remember when I when I then it's talked about this in extreme ownership when I was telling
[01:13:42] those guys hey just make a plan that the lowest common denominator I get up have people walk through
[01:13:49] it look at the map use the map draw a picture draw it up on the whiteboard do that I remember Seth
[01:13:56] was looking at me like he was going to get fired like when he gives this brief he's going to get
[01:14:03] fired and it's funny because usually I would get that I would feel a little bit more push back from
[01:14:09] life on stuff and Seth would be like rea Roger and Lave would have why would we do like that
[01:14:14] and this time for whatever reason I think I think Lave actually just realized that this was the
[01:14:19] smartest thing he'd ever heard I think Lave just said to himself you know what this actually
[01:14:24] freaking makes sense and he was so on board with it he was so stoked and he had BTF Tony was his chief
[01:14:31] and that's the way you know Tony knew how to make shit happen and and I just but but Seth was just
[01:14:37] freaked out like well I mean you think he was so freaked out by the fact of thinking that
[01:14:43] he was getting fired for for trying to make his men understand what was going to happen on this
[01:14:51] mission and the cool thing was the commanding officer when when they got done because it was two
[01:14:56] platoon's going out on on an SR you know on a reconnaissance mission and they both took their
[01:15:00] platoon's out when they got done the you know the commanding officer who had gone around and
[01:15:06] watched all the platoon's give all their briefs and give all these 150 power points slides and
[01:15:11] do all these you know what what is it called animation in your slides he'd watched all those things
[01:15:17] and he he said these these are the best briefs of scene which was freaking awesome it was awesome
[01:15:22] because if the commanding officer can't follow what the hell is going to happen on an operation how
[01:15:29] is a new guy he four machine gunner can you not following anything and the more flexible you make these
[01:15:35] plans we're not all rigid what's kind of crazy about that is that commanding officer was
[01:15:40] probably stoked that the brief took nine minutes not forty nine minutes he was probably waiting
[01:15:45] like there we go yeah we're gonna come in and and he would probably look like that's it that's awesome
[01:15:49] yeah I mean it was you know it's still an hour long yeah but an hour long of real information
[01:15:56] as opposed to you know an hour and forty seven minutes of slides that are of you know
[01:16:03] asset matrix for the you know he knew represented thirty man hours of power point work
[01:16:10] to make the arrow move the point behind that was and I saw this in the Pentagon all the time
[01:16:16] I wouldn't be surprised if you saw some of this in the EA world working in you know with
[01:16:19] animals in general is we create this thing where we are we this is how the boss wants it
[01:16:26] and so we give the boss what he wants and some of the bosses are pretty they don't want to go
[01:16:30] down their mic manager people so they kind of tolerate it and we convince ourselves this is what
[01:16:34] the boss is looking for someone to do what make most of our bosses don't actually want this
[01:16:39] they just want to make sure they know that you know what you're going to go do to go get it done
[01:16:42] and the least amount of time it takes to make him comfortable that you know the plan is actually
[01:16:48] what he wants and I remember putting these briefs together and I'd get these templates to go
[01:16:52] brief these generals up in the top floor of the Pentagon it was a big thing you've got 19 minutes
[01:16:56] could submit this calendar and we go in there and for the first couple briefs we'd have
[01:17:02] 47 pages and he go hey can you just skip to the summary slide?
[01:17:05] Okay okay okay okay hey that may hey bolt through what do you mean by that?
[01:17:13] Hey sir we're talking about this okay cool awesome hey I hate to do it you guys I got to get
[01:17:16] going thanks but I'm good at your plan go execute they didn't want any of that garbage but we
[01:17:21] fall this template we are so sure that they want it most leaders really just want to know that you
[01:17:26] understand yeah and they want to understand the wave tops of what's happening so they understand
[01:17:32] I had this guy I was putting a I was putting a group through Landwater Fair and this guy gave
[01:17:38] a brief when it was horrible and long and freaking too detailed and covered stuff that didn't
[01:17:42] matter to anyone in the room and they gave another brief that was you know not enough and you know
[01:17:48] skipped like basic contingencies and then he was kind of frustrated and he goes what do you
[01:17:55] what do you even tell me what a good brief is as if that was like a trick question you know
[01:18:02] I was I thought about it for four seconds and I said a good brief is a brief where your mind
[01:18:10] understand what is going to happen and what to do during an operation that's a good brief
[01:18:17] and he was able to dial it in yeah this where in the jungle you might have forgotten that
[01:18:25] patrolling in the jungle an officer with considerable experience in the jungle patrolling gives
[01:18:31] this advice patrols are most likely to give away their presence in an area by their footprints
[01:18:36] shine from the smallest metal surface such as a belt buckle or watch must be avoided
[01:18:40] a luminous watch constitutes a real danger and he noise such as talking coughing, spitting,
[01:18:46] etc. must have to be treated with the greatest of all dangers a man on patrol must learn to move
[01:18:52] silently making every possible use of natural cover that's just old school stuff I got to
[01:18:58] feel something I was hunting it's like so happy to be moving quietly some more patrol tips
[01:19:06] positioning camouflage are more important than I learned in the states in training
[01:19:12] in training bear down on covering concealment bear down on avoidance of the blundering approach
[01:19:19] on patrols on fire maneuver which are equally important and I didn't read that well in training
[01:19:26] bear down on covering concealment bear down on the avoidance of blundering approach on patrols
[01:19:32] on fire maneuver which are equally important size of patrols the tenant kernel
[01:19:41] w a walker tank destroyer battalion commander Tunisia which you know let's just face it
[01:19:48] you're getting a title tank destroyer battalion commander is right up there many men were lost in Tunisia
[01:19:55] by using squad patrols the Germans used stronger patrols and just gobbled them up a patrol should be
[01:20:04] either a sneak patrol small enough to escape detection or a combat patrol large enough to fight
[01:20:10] its way out of difficulty never allow one man to go out alone you know what's interesting about that
[01:20:18] we don't want to be balanced right well it's not going to be balanced but what he's saying
[01:20:28] is like you either want to be small and maneuverable and quiet or big enough to fight
[01:20:34] don't don't don't try and make the mistake of trying to do both he will just take out a squad
[01:20:39] plus then you're making a bunch of noise the difference between you know six guys and 12 guys
[01:20:50] is a massive difference it is a massive difference on a patrol it's a totally like when we go out
[01:20:57] out of the squad patrol in the in the sealed teams you know you got eight guys it's this tiny little
[01:21:01] thing and you can see everyone and then at night with no night vision you can see everyone
[01:21:05] happens there you when you take out a patrol it seems like you've got this just massive thing
[01:21:12] and when you take out a task unit patrol it's just breaking gigantic like they're gonna hear you
[01:21:19] don't make that mistake so this is one of those things it's like it's not a dichotomy either or
[01:21:24] one of those rare things yeah because normally we're saying hey you don't go to the extreme one
[01:21:28] side of the other right want to be balanced yeah this is kind of like falling to the trap of
[01:21:34] well I want them to be small enough to be light nimble but big enough where you know they can
[01:21:37] defend themselves and what you're gonna end up with is not small and light and not able to defend
[01:21:41] themselves right like not not big enough to fight yet not small enough to move yes it's kind of like
[01:21:48] a we you serve obviously it's kind of like when you judge waves right you're either too far
[01:21:54] for it to crash on you or you just go 100% under the wave you know I'm saying otherwise it crashes on
[01:22:00] you either go over it or under it or it crashes way before it can hit you oh that's that's
[01:22:07] a positive thing yes you don't want it to crash on you on yes you are gonna be in that want that
[01:22:12] little middle ground you don't want to be in the in the zone of destruction yeah there it's own
[01:22:16] there's a movie called the North Shore the impacts on impacts on yeah so North Shore he covered that
[01:22:22] yeah it was like yeah you're like you don't want to be actually this guy turtle they mean you're
[01:22:26] watching North Shore deeper no yeah Rick King anyway got from Arizona wins a tank surfing competition
[01:22:32] so he's like of course I'm going to the North Shore so he's kind of a tank destroyer
[01:22:40] in a matter of speaking yes unless tank waves are pretty small and tame you know the artificial
[01:22:46] waves in Arizona apparently so he goes to the North Shore and you know he kind of gets wrecked for
[01:22:50] a little bit anyway meets the sky turtle and turtle says if the wave is here don't be here because
[01:22:56] you're gonna get drilled classic climate so same deal in this maybe we should cover that movie on
[01:23:03] here just to get these make sure we pass on these lessons learned I'm just saying these concepts are
[01:23:07] everywhere that's that's the thing
[01:23:11] the next section is called infantry weapons goes through detail M1 rifle frag grenades
[01:23:16] the Thompson Sub machine gun the Browning our automatic rifle the light machine gun heavy
[01:23:21] machine gun 60 millimeter motor 81 millimeter mortar the 37 millimeter AT gun the 4.2 inch chemical
[01:23:30] mortar which was originally called that because it was originally made for firing chemical shells
[01:23:36] but eventually they adjusted it put HE in there but they still called it the uh so it goes through
[01:23:41] like really good kind of pragmatic details of on how to operate those weapons talks about
[01:23:47] next sections about artillery we what's chemical mortar chemical mortar is what to fire well what
[01:23:54] they disguised it was was this is a smoke mortar so we're gonna shoot if we have to use smoke
[01:24:01] to you know cover movement or we want to disrupt the enemies ability to see we have a
[01:24:07] mortar for firing smoke but that was really so we could fire chemical weapons if we were going to
[01:24:14] use them like well like to hear nerve gas yeah like yeah like you're gonna die but we didn't do
[01:24:21] that we ended up making an HE round high exposed just kind of a normal mortar round for it and they liked it
[01:24:30] section called mast fires through tenet kernel james infantry Sicily our division artillery
[01:24:35] was never out of support from more than five minutes throughout the whole campaign we've got a
[01:24:40] wonderful set of battalions in our division artillery and we have worked so closely together that
[01:24:44] there is much part of our outfit as our own battalions they kept they keep right up on our heels
[01:24:50] all the time and that is just what we've got to have I don't know what we could have done without them
[01:24:56] they leap frog their batteries continually and went into some of the damnedest positions I had
[01:25:01] ever seen and delivered the goods we just can't praise them too much they were always right there
[01:25:08] when you needed them in one place where we couldn't get forward because the hi-nees were on
[01:25:12] superior ground and had us pinned down with rifle machine gun and mortar fire the division artillery
[01:25:17] mast nine batteries on them and plastered them with fifteen hundred rounds in less than 30 minutes
[01:25:24] we then walk through that position without a scratch and the German dead were all over the place
[01:25:35] teamwork infantry tank team captain putton in infantry Sicily the infantry should be given
[01:25:44] practical training in cooperation with tanks I don't mean the armored infantry they're part of the
[01:25:48] armored division work with them all the time I mean ordinary infantry like us I know our regiment
[01:25:53] didn't have any training with tanks in preparation for combat we just didn't know how to work with
[01:25:57] the attached tank unit when the dirt when the tanks came up to supporters after we had broken up
[01:26:02] the German attack we did not follow up the tanks properly as they went forward had we done so we
[01:26:07] could have cleaned out most of the battalion of Germans we had not been trained to work with the
[01:26:12] tanks and when we remained in position they went and we were mainly in position after they went
[01:26:16] forward if we would have known how to go forward with them we could have done a much better job
[01:26:21] and could have gotten all the German vehicles and material after this experience we strongly
[01:26:27] recommend that all infantry be given practical training cooperation with tanks and action
[01:26:32] get the infantry men used to the tanks and how to fight together with them for me that's a
[01:26:38] a comment about training in general you know you can't expect people to do things that they've never
[01:26:43] trained to do so don't expect them to do things that they haven't been going to do if there's
[01:26:46] something that they need to know how to do it that they might have to do train them on it
[01:26:54] Colonel Perkins tank battalion commander Italy the rush to battle is the wrong idea
[01:27:02] here we creep up each tank should Overwatch another tank each section should Overwatch another
[01:27:08] section each platoon should Overwatch another platoon Ranger training buddy system Lieutenant Colonel William O.
[01:27:24] Darby commanding officer of the rangers in Italy and I think everybody kind of knows what I say
[01:27:33] we said Lieutenant Colonel William O. Darby I know they at least think of the Darby Queen
[01:27:39] the the ranger off-school course in our work we always use the buddy system the men work in pairs
[01:27:46] they live in pairs even pairs do garden pairs even do kp in pairs confidence and jugglers developed
[01:27:51] they can pick their own buddy from within their platoon same thing in the seal teams day one
[01:27:58] you get a swim buddy and stick with them realism in our training we never do anything without battle
[01:28:03] noises and effects we always use live ammunition we use mines barbed wire and protective bands of
[01:28:09] machine gun fire extensively if the problem is to capture a machine gun nest there's always a machine
[01:28:13] gun nest there with a machine gun firing in a fixed direction the men very quickly get a custom
[01:28:18] to having live ammunition flying around them capture the telling the German machine guns and
[01:28:23] machine pistols are used by the enemy in our problems that he's talking about the out for
[01:28:27] our men quickly learn to distinguish between the fire of our own weapons and that of enemy weapons
[01:28:32] also the enemy makes constant use of flares we always carry our normal load of ammunition with weapons
[01:28:38] loaded if a man knows his weapon is loaded he will be more careful in handling it an accidental discharge
[01:28:43] of a weapon automatically means a fine and immediate reduction to the grade of private
[01:28:50] in our work we must take drastic measures to guard against accidental discharge of weapons
[01:28:55] we learned our lesson in Tunisia where the accidental discharge of a rifle
[01:29:02] cleared a raid and caused a 24 hour delay in operations so all kinds of good stuff in there and
[01:29:09] and I will say this so when I got the seal teams it was almost all live fire we did live fire
[01:29:14] for everything and it gave you that kind of pressure and that kind of you you got a custom to
[01:29:19] machine guns and hearing them and you know round snapping overhead and you do you got used to it
[01:29:25] in fact there were days where they would put us down range and just shoot you know put put
[01:29:30] put you down range you'd go behind a berm or whatever you get in a safe spot and then they just
[01:29:34] shoot at you so you'd start getting used to like okay this is what different round sound like and
[01:29:39] you you know that happens even being in the butts at a you know on a normal range
[01:29:43] but that kind of realism is important here's the drawback the drawback is the enemy doesn't
[01:29:49] maneuver the enemy doesn't shoot back at you so when we started using
[01:29:55] simulation paintball laser tag systems that totally improved our tactical capability
[01:30:03] to an incredible amount the accidental discharge that's still a huge deal right oh yeah
[01:30:09] what is it now like them I mean they're they're talking about finding people and busing them
[01:30:12] down the private I mean it I think some of it depends on the circumstances you know if you have
[01:30:18] an actual discharge in the seal teams it's going to be your careers your careers are the line
[01:30:23] you know if you if you have something like that happen it's not necessarily going to be over
[01:30:29] but you're going to have a real you're going to have to keep your hopes up they don't
[01:30:35] that you don't get so even like like a called AD right or AD
[01:30:41] AD and the which is a negligent discharge I think they are now I'm not like totally caught up on
[01:30:49] the terminology of where it's at right now the and the just started coming around when I was
[01:30:58] sort of in my later years yeah I feel like negligent that's like careless in
[01:31:04] yeah so like an accidental discharge which to your point you can have a you can have a you
[01:31:09] can have around just cook off like you're out in the desert in Imperial Valley in California it's
[01:31:14] 120 degrees out and you dump six mags on your last run and you're standing there your weapon
[01:31:20] is scorching hot and if there's around in the chamber it can cook off it can just shoot that's
[01:31:25] why you have your weapon painted pointed in this air direction at all times if that happened you
[01:31:31] you're not going to get I mean you know you're not really going to get trouble I mean is if everyone
[01:31:36] didn't have the weapon clearance if but when it's hot out everyone be like hey clearance if
[01:31:39] your weapons but you know we also used to have a command safe and let them hang which is just you
[01:31:43] just safe your weapon you just let it hang there so we've got a hot round and there it can cook off
[01:31:47] you're probably not you know you're not going to get in trouble for that most likely you occasionally
[01:31:53] a weapon will have some kind of a malfunction that will cause a problem what else can happen
[01:32:00] I feel like something like that like I've weapons malfunction the hot you know that's like
[01:32:05] an accident that's an accident that negligent is the kind like that's not I had my finger in the
[01:32:09] trigger yeah and you know somebody called a ceasefire and all of a sudden you know I kind of let
[01:32:16] my weapon hang when it's resting on my finger and I crack off around and they get a lot of trouble
[01:32:20] for that yeah interesting this is more on range of training physical conditioning one of our best
[01:32:29] means a physical conditioning is speed marching finally reaching a point where we march 10 miles
[01:32:35] at a rate of 6 miles an hour to keep in condition we use calcthenics in a daily 5 miles speed march
[01:32:43] discipline discipline aerodryals are all important we have a retreat formation daily
[01:32:51] conditions permitting at this formation the men are inspected and some manual of arms performed
[01:32:56] followed by retreat every Sunday morning there is a review followed by inspection in the ranks
[01:33:00] and then inspection of the camp or quarters we have at least four periods a week of closed order
[01:33:05] drill and manual of arms and one period every week devoted to military courtesy
[01:33:12] infractions of discipline military courtesy and uniform regulations are dealt with quickly
[01:33:18] and severely the officers must bear down on these things the army in general has not stressed
[01:33:23] strict discipline enough without it you are lost yeah one of those things
[01:33:37] can you go too far with discipline Dave Burke yes you can absolutely
[01:33:43] I mean obviously don't know the background of that story but you know the version of the story he's
[01:33:48] talking about is the guys that could feel stripper weapon in the dark at night
[01:33:52] on the worst possible situations we had nine seconds to get that weapon back in action you need
[01:33:56] discipline and repeat and wrote and over you need that and then the flip side is exactly
[01:34:02] we started this whole conversation with if I just if I if you do it because you're scared of me
[01:34:07] and I tell you to do it because if you don't you're going to get punished sooner or later sooner or later
[01:34:13] that approach will fail and look I know with the context of the book is so it's driven by that
[01:34:18] first scenario but you absolutely can overdo it yeah and then you could be like John Basilone
[01:34:26] Basil and you'd hear stories from guys that work with him and they absolutely loved
[01:34:38] doing the right thing drilling with those weapons he set the example he did it in front of
[01:34:45] them at night blindfold all those things he did all those things he did and he like they love
[01:34:50] doing it he was inspirational he didn't impose discipline on them he showed them and gave them
[01:34:58] the gift of self discipline which is far superior dude and thinking the mileage you get is if
[01:35:04] I've ever as a leader the discipline that you demand from your people and the punishment that might
[01:35:10] come from not doing it if you actually impose it upon yourself as well and hold yourself to the
[01:35:14] same standard as opposed to get out there and go do that and I'm gonna sit in here and I don't know
[01:35:19] watch TV or something that piece of it when you're talking about that discipline what you get
[01:35:25] when you hold yourself to the exact same standard as your people Basil section two field artillery
[01:35:34] morale effect the incestant firing of our artillery during the six week period
[01:35:40] produced contrasting effects on the nerves of our own troops and on those the enemy
[01:35:46] our infantry often stated that having those rounds continually landing in front of them was
[01:35:50] one of the best morale builders especially at night in the jab on the other hand it produced
[01:35:56] severe cases of war neurosis he couldn't sleep at night because he never knew when or where
[01:36:04] the next round was going to land he couldn't sleep in the daytime because when our infantry
[01:36:10] wasn't attacking him our artillery was giving him hell and this is nice the following statements
[01:36:17] made by prisoners are interesting so these are Japanese prisoners of which we know there wasn't
[01:36:22] a lot between the airport between be below hill and the airport we had many guns of all sizes
[01:36:31] before this campaign but now many of them are gone knocked out by artillery it is completely
[01:36:39] demoralized many units reduced many units in strength and has made many men go crazy
[01:36:48] we were awakened at night by the slightest noise because of the bad state of nerves
[01:36:53] at night three men stayed in one foxhole two smoked while one slept
[01:36:58] during the day we also tried to get some sleep by alternating but the continual artillery fire
[01:37:04] kept us on edge and we got no rest even in the two story dugouts many men were killed just by
[01:37:12] concussion a direct hit would kill all the men inside the artillery is the one thing that is
[01:37:18] universally feared by all our ground troops it continues over such long periods of time and the
[01:37:25] rounds come so fast except for the artillery we could continue our defense that's horror
[01:37:36] that's just horror
[01:37:43] section three miscellaneous booby traps seventh army report Sicily a German
[01:37:49] Luger pistol was booby trapped on a table new replacement picked it up two were killed and
[01:37:54] 14 were wounded in the resulting explosion there's another little set I wasn't going to read this
[01:38:01] but I'm going to read it a Luger pistol was found lying on the ground an American infantry
[01:38:04] lieutenant carefully tied a long court to it and then getting into a hole pulled it to him and
[01:38:09] put it in his pocket later in the day while examining the pistol he attempted to remove the magazine
[01:38:14] the explosion killed the lieutenant and two other men with six soldiers wounded
[01:38:18] the reason I'm reading that is because that was a freaking they set that thing up that's a that's a
[01:38:25] massive explosion from a small piece of from a small pistol timelyness of orders major
[01:38:33] kidney infantry are chief difficulty throughout the campaign was the lack of time given for the
[01:38:38] execution of orders frequently received operations orders which did not allow enough time for
[01:38:43] proper preparation and execution at San Fratello we received an order after 11 p.m. to attack
[01:38:50] at six a.m. the next morning now when I read that I was like hey man that's kind of thinking
[01:38:57] you all said I'll come up with a simple flexible plan no factor I got this what are they whining about
[01:39:02] read on the six battagans were assembly were in assembly areas some five or six miles
[01:39:08] from the line of departure so even to get to where they were supposed to leave from the had to
[01:39:14] go six miles the terrain over which they had to move to get in position in the dark was the
[01:39:18] roughest most rugged mountain country you can imagine and all ammunition weapons it supplies
[01:39:23] had to be taken by hand and by muelpack although it might seem that 11 p.m. to six a.m. was
[01:39:29] sufficient time the actual conditions were such that it was less than half done enough because the
[01:39:34] terrain darkness and transport difficulties also the men had just completed marches over mountain
[01:39:38] trails of nine to 14 miles and we're not fresh for the new movement maps seven th Army
[01:39:51] report Sicily instill an all personnel and appreciation of the value of maps the supply of maps
[01:39:56] will never be adequate to the demand training in the care and preservation of maps is as important
[01:40:03] as training in the care and preservation of material most important thing you need to know
[01:40:11] most important piece of information is where you are and if your map is destroyed have you
[01:40:16] received those old school silk maps yes things are legit they print them on silk echo trails
[01:40:22] because then they could survive I like this section this section is called room for improvement
[01:40:32] the following comments indicating weaknesses which must be corrected were made by the commanding
[01:40:38] general and they don't give the division I guess they're keeping it secret here we go sometimes
[01:40:44] units failed to dispose themselves properly for all round defense when halted on an objective or
[01:40:50] in place in position for defense so when you go into defense they're not putting themselves in the
[01:40:57] right positions next in the attack rifleman frequently failed to provide fire that would cover
[01:41:04] the movement of adjacent units merely because they were not able to pinpoint definitely the location
[01:41:10] of the enemy rifle and machine gun elements firing on our troops what does that mean that means
[01:41:16] you fire where you suspect the enemy will be and that's something that infantry men and special
[01:41:23] operations people learn is if you don't know where the enemy has a new gunfight shoot where you think they
[01:41:28] might be this is perhaps one of my favorite things from this book some small unit commanders
[01:41:40] selected positions apparently with cover and concealment for themselves as the primary objective
[01:41:47] rather than positions from which effective fire could be brought to bear on the enemy
[01:41:56] and the last one due to the enormous division frontage in the second phase of the landing at
[01:42:01] Soleno some company some commanders attempted to stretch their units excessively and as a result
[01:42:08] permitted faulty dispositions prioritize next here they go into some details on the Japanese
[01:42:21] overall and you know I've been reading the book and saying japs I know that's a derogatory term
[01:42:30] towards Japanese people I'm not referring to Japanese people I'm referring to the
[01:42:34] Imperial Japanese army members that were fighting against America and we're being referred to
[01:42:40] by their sworn enemy the Americans has japs Superman myth exploded that's the title of this
[01:42:49] operations report 43rd division new Georgia our troops here came to regard the superman stories
[01:42:56] about the Japanese as ridiculous the jap is tricky but not so tricky as many of lead
[01:43:04] been led to believe he is not he is not nearly so ingenious or adaptable as the average American
[01:43:10] and the truth of the matter is he's afraid of us of our artillery and of our sea and airpower
[01:43:18] our troops must learn this and never forget it yeah
[01:43:25] this is the last the last no and this it keeps some stuff about the Japanese as an enemy
[01:43:37] and then it gives some stuff about the Germans as an enemy and this is the last one here
[01:43:42] the last one from this book for part one of combat lessons minor tactics staff sergeants
[01:43:50] Richard E. Deeland and Robert J. Camp infantry Sicily never let an apparently low machine gun
[01:44:01] suck you into a trap the Germans will usually not fire on the individual but will wait
[01:44:08] watch where he goes and get a whole flock and that's the last point in here and I think it's
[01:44:19] it's not the last point in this whole book there's a few more but I think it's a good place to stop
[01:44:24] and the reason why I think it's a good place to stop is because it's a warning it's a warning
[01:44:32] about a trap it's a warning about a trap that the Germans use which is you know put it
[01:44:37] what loan looking machine gun out there by itself oh that looks exposed and it seems real
[01:44:44] obvious when you read it you're like hey if I see a but look too good to be true right this is
[01:44:48] too good to be true this is the situation and so it's real obvious to anyone that's looking
[01:44:53] at it going oh that's too good to be true there's a right machine gun that's waiting to be taken out
[01:45:00] looks real obvious an obvious trap and yet the warning is there why is the warning still there
[01:45:09] because people still fall for it you will still fall for it I will still fall for it we will all
[01:45:16] still fall for that trap just like we will fall for the trap that we're good to go
[01:45:27] that we know everything that we need to know that we understand everything that we need to understand
[01:45:32] that we have reached our highest possible form
[01:45:37] then all those little thoughts are a trap because we're not good then we don't know everything
[01:45:52] we don't understand everything and we have absolutely not reached our highest form we all have
[01:45:58] work to do so watch out for that trap because it is enticing it is enticing like a low machine gun
[01:46:08] just gonna sit out there by itself waiting to be taken out and it's real easy to tell yourself
[01:46:18] that you're good so here's a little warning for all of us especially me
[01:46:24] we can't fall for that trap
[01:46:38] well that wraps up that
[01:46:42] then the other notes Dave
[01:46:45] no we addressed all of it that I wrote down and the whole lot more
[01:46:49] you know there these lessons all those statements that comments the explanations
[01:47:00] they all come from the same place as that trap they're all lessons learned the hard way
[01:47:06] and as repetitive as they sort of sound they're all because all those are the same thing
[01:47:10] I'm gonna say this over and over and over again because this keeps happening over and over and over again
[01:47:15] it's in some ways it's it's heartbreaking but that is the reality is that even those lessons of
[01:47:21] the things we're supposed to do come from
[01:47:25] we had a saying an aviation they come they were written in blood they all came from a lesson
[01:47:30] that's already been we already know that but we learned it the hard way and
[01:47:37] you you you repeat yourself all the time and I don't mean that about you repeat yourself
[01:47:43] we do it as shown for it we repeat ourselves all the time we take the same thing and then
[01:47:47] try to apply the context to whatever world whatever company whatever business whatever problem we're
[01:47:52] dealing with but we're always saying the same thing because these lessons these lessons get learned
[01:47:57] over and over and over again and the biggest
[01:48:01] biggest thing that prevents us from making that lesson stick is what you just said is ourselves going oh
[01:48:08] no I got it I've heard it enough I understand it and the minute you are convinced that you've
[01:48:13] heard it enough and you've got it is when you're gonna learn the exact same lesson again
[01:48:20] yeah it's weird how I mean this happens to us all the time in national and front
[01:48:28] you you go we go into a company the companies in the game they're in the game they're
[01:48:34] they're telling me I mean there's definitely people it happens on the f-on line somebody
[01:48:38] who brings something up and somebody like oh jockel podcast number 128 he talks about that
[01:48:43] I don't know off top man but someone's answering that question in a millisecond right
[01:48:48] people that know the material so we go into companies where they know they've read they know
[01:48:55] they wrote memorized I guess no is a strong word right
[01:48:59] but and I talked about this on the Darryl Cooper and I got to got into it a little bit
[01:49:08] on the unraveling podcast because he was saying to me well how do you handle something when you know
[01:49:16] that the other person's premise is wrong and you know he was pretty dug in and I said well
[01:49:25] do you actually really know that because I'm not gonna approach anything if Dave Burke comes to me
[01:49:33] and says hey jocco a UFO just touched down in my backyard I need support here ASAP
[01:49:45] right not the split hairs but you mean extra terrestrial what did I say UFO okay yeah
[01:49:51] UFO's just unidentified okay so he identified so he calls me up and says unidentified
[01:49:56] extraterrestrial machine just landed in my backyard
[01:50:04] do what do I say look I know that's not true or do I right you know what I say I say well what does it look like
[01:50:11] what what sort of what sort of weaponry do you see do are they is they're covering element
[01:50:17] can you extract from the aO until we can assemble a counter force to go after these guys right
[01:50:24] I don't just say hey Dave shut up you know I hate bringing out I'm like that's a dumb example
[01:50:29] right but it's really hard for me to think of something that I should say it's really hard it's not man
[01:50:36] people think that they know stuff all the time and what I say on the F online the other day I said
[01:50:40] you don't mistake your opinion for the truth don't mistake your opinion for the truth don't
[01:50:48] mistake people don't mistake what you've heard and what you've said for the truth don't
[01:50:55] mistake the way you've always done things for the truth don't mistake your perspective for the truth
[01:51:02] and that is why when you speak the truth and you and I talked about this the other day Dave
[01:51:06] when you speak the truth what you should do is speak the truth humbly replace
[01:51:10] of humility. Speak the truth from a place of humility. That's how you speak the truth.
[01:51:17] Because even when you believe something and you quote, no, it's right, there is a chance and you
[01:51:24] need to open your mind to this chance that you are actually wrong and you didn't understand something.
[01:51:29] You didn't understand a different perspective. And all those things, all those things of, you know,
[01:51:37] thinking that you know, thinking that you don't make this mistake, all those things, thinking
[01:51:43] that your opinion is the truth, all those things, those are all traps, those are all just traps.
[01:51:48] And they seem so obvious when we're sitting here talking about them. And yet, day after day after
[01:51:51] day, you see people fall into those traps. And so what's interesting is when we talk about these lessons
[01:51:57] and where I was starting this little idea is that you and I work with companies all the time,
[01:52:03] and they know the material. They can recite the material. And yet, they're caught up, they're not
[01:52:13] detached and they're not executing correctly. And so one of the primary things and it's
[01:52:18] great being an echelon front because when we come in, we are instantly, where do we are detached?
[01:52:24] That's our function. So as soon as we just take them and we move them over to our position,
[01:52:31] three feet and say, look at that meeting, look at how that meeting just went. Or, you know,
[01:52:36] look at this, look at this, this, this, this task the way you put this out to the troops. Look at this.
[01:52:41] Just look at it. Does that sound like your micro managing? Does that sound like you're not
[01:52:50] giving any ownership like, what does it sound like? If you read this and all of a sudden, people go,
[01:52:53] well, so you've got to watch out for these traps in the world.
[01:53:01] I'm going to say something that's a total contradiction. Because all these quotes, all these
[01:53:10] lessons, all the things you were just reading about in that in this book or whatever this is,
[01:53:14] this compilation of people's lessons that they've learned. I was thinking about how often these
[01:53:23] things get repeated. And it's this idea of, hey, the minute you think you know these lessons,
[01:53:29] the minute you think you, I know this is when you actually have the most amount of risk. And at the
[01:53:35] same time of thinking myself, I wish I knew all this stuff at the very beginning of my career.
[01:53:42] And to think about what I actually could have done with my time in the Marine Corps, if I knew this stuff,
[01:53:47] and like to see the ultimate dichotomy of you never know this stuff, you have to learn it
[01:53:55] over and over again. And if I just knew this stuff, how much better I would have been at what I was
[01:53:59] doing. The broad understanding of it is what people, is what makes it hard for people to
[01:54:11] understand a level where it can be utilized. Because I know for a fact that you were taught,
[01:54:18] you know, hey, okay, when you're going through the basics, I was like, okay, you got this element over
[01:54:21] here, they're going to put down a cut. You were absolutely taught that. I was absolutely taught that.
[01:54:27] And yet I ended up having to teach this stuff to seals. Guys that have been in for 15 years,
[01:54:33] 20 years, be like, hey, why don't you put in some machine guns out on the flanks,
[01:54:38] why you cross this road? Oh, that's a good old school thing. No, it's actually covered move.
[01:54:42] This is a good basic thing that we do all the time. You know, and I'm not saying it every
[01:54:47] seal, but I'm just saying seals that I've been in the Navy for a long time. And that's
[01:54:57] what's so difficult about these things. And I was thinking about this the other day.
[01:55:01] You start, okay, when you do you do you do you do you do you do you do you do you do academy?
[01:55:08] And you, the more people that are at the academy and the better they get, it's like a pyramid.
[01:55:14] If you're at the top of the pyramid, so Dean Lister is at the top of the pyramid at Victory MMA.
[01:55:21] Every single time someone shows up new, they're a white belt.
[01:55:25] Well, they show up here and they take their first class. That pyramid gets a little bit taller.
[01:55:31] And Dean Lister gets a little bit better from one person showing up here. Because I one person's
[01:55:35] going to train in a different way and he's going to prop up somebody else and that little
[01:55:39] movement raises everyone up by a time he gets to me. I'm going up a little bit and then Dean's
[01:55:43] going up just getting a little bit better. So what happens, I think is these ideas.
[01:55:48] When you first hear them, they're just sort of there and you don't connect them.
[01:55:55] And then as you start to connect them together, all of a sudden, well, not all of a sudden,
[01:56:01] as you start to connect them together, they start getting taller and taller and taller and taller.
[01:56:06] And you start to see more connections. And really for me, this is, it does boil down to
[01:56:12] what made me start to connect these things was jujitsu. In the fact that I could see
[01:56:17] in jujitsu what I saw people supposed to do in the battlefield, those were the first two
[01:56:23] connections that I made. And it's probably because I heard it somewhere. I'm sure somebody said,
[01:56:28] you know martial arts are like combat. And what does that mean? Or whatever. But then I started seeing
[01:56:33] the actual connection between the two. And then at some point, I started seeing that,
[01:56:40] oh, those same things actually work in leadership inside of a team period. And now I'll
[01:56:45] listen to everything looks connected. And now I'll listen when you start, when you, when you learn
[01:56:50] to move in jujitsu, when you learn to move in a jujitsu and you don't know anything, that move is a
[01:56:57] is a solitary thing by itself. It's unsupported in any way. You really can't even barely even
[01:57:04] utilize that move because it's just by itself. You don't even know what position to get into.
[01:57:09] You don't know how to get into that position. You don't know how to set it up. You don't know
[01:57:12] anything. You know that move, but it's so easy to forget because it's not connected to anything else.
[01:57:17] The better you get, the more knowledge you have, all of the sudden you start putting these things
[01:57:22] together and now they become a system. Now they're all interrelated. And now when you see something,
[01:57:28] here's something, it fits into, you see how it fits into this overall broad view of things,
[01:57:33] which is why, you know, we constantly are quoting, if you see the way, if you see the way,
[01:57:39] Broadway, you'll see it in all things. And that's what this is, but it takes a certain level
[01:57:44] of understanding before you can see the way, broadly. And, you know, I talk to young
[01:57:51] guys that are going in the seal teams and they just have no, this stuff isn't even on the
[01:57:59] f- it's not even on the radar in any way shape or form. Right? And part of it is because they
[01:58:05] don't see the seal teams, they see the seal teams. I was like, oh, I'm going to go make it through
[01:58:09] buds and I'm going to go and, you know, I'm going to go run and we're going to shoot machine guns.
[01:58:14] They don't understand what this profession is. And it's better now than it was. I mean, the
[01:58:20] guys, when I came in, I didn't freaking understand any of this, definitely any way shape or form.
[01:58:24] I better even understood what it meant to, okay, you're going to be part of this squad and this squad
[01:58:31] has responsibilities to an overall, I barely grasp any of that. But as you start to assemble this
[01:58:39] information, and so that's what's hard. So going back to working with the client, like until
[01:58:45] you can start bringing things together for them. Until they start connecting these things in their
[01:58:51] own head, that's another thing is I can sit there and with a ball-peen hammer hit you with one spot
[01:58:59] and go cover and move, cover and move. Until you see that cover and move is connected to these other
[01:59:06] things, it's very, very difficult to force the knowledge onto that onto another human.
[01:59:13] Yeah. And I made the comment earlier about, I wish I knew these things. There's a whole bunch of
[01:59:19] reasons why you simply can't at the beginning, just like you described. I guess the second lieutenant
[01:59:24] Dave Burke almost can't know this, no matter how crystal clear these lessons are from World War II
[01:59:31] and forever back. And the other side of that though is that even even when you can, it's still never
[01:59:42] ends finding more to know. Dude, I taught it top gun. The, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the,
[01:59:49] the, the, the, the apex of aviation and the pinnacle and all these things that we used to describe top gun,
[01:59:54] this PhD level graduate level system of combat aviation top gun, you know what I was teaching there?
[02:00:02] Cover and move cover and move and you know why I was teaching cover and move because the mistakes
[02:00:08] that top gun made the students made to go through top gun were mistakes they weren't doing cover
[02:00:13] move even at that level. The reason I was talking about simple plans at top gun, we didn't use
[02:00:20] the same words, but I was teaching that same thing is because the plans weren't simple and nobody
[02:00:24] really understood them and they go out and missions come back and hey, what, what did I scare
[02:00:27] them? Well, this guy's in listen to me. Well, that could be it, but actually it's probably not,
[02:00:32] what probably is it you did explain to very well. The reason I was teaching these same simple
[02:00:37] fundamental things at top gun is that those are the mistakes that were being made repeatedly
[02:00:41] by some of the best most experienced pilots in the world. And as I hear myself say, I wish I knew
[02:00:49] this stuff and I'm not laughing at the phrase, know this stuff. It's crazy how even now that I know
[02:00:58] it's so much more than ever new, what I really know is how little I still really know and how much
[02:01:05] more that is out there and that's why every time you break out another book I'm like, do that book
[02:01:08] was awesome even though saying he exact same things they're all saying. But that's actually
[02:01:19] that's actually really good because we get to do this again. Yeah, we get to do it over and over again
[02:01:28] and get to see it from a different angle and get to understand it a little bit deeper. Like when this
[02:01:33] example comes in the pyramid goes up just a little bit more and it ties together another
[02:01:39] little part of your brain and I often wonder, you know, there's some lessons that you cannot
[02:01:50] teach to someone like they have to, they have to experience it, right? And there's unfortunately
[02:01:57] a lot of lessons like that. Let's face it. Let's face it. That is the vast majority of lessons
[02:02:02] because everyone, otherwise everyone would get issued a certain book in age 12 and here's what you
[02:02:06] need to know and they'd be like, oh cool, got it. Okay, save my money. Okay, eat healthy. Okay,
[02:02:11] you know, because all these fundamental things that a human being could do that if you did all these
[02:02:15] fundamental things and by the way, these are not hidden knowledge. These are common knowledge.
[02:02:22] These are these are just common knowledge things that everyone kind of knows and yet we think it's
[02:02:29] going to be different for us. We think we get, I don't need, I'm going to do it a little bit differently
[02:02:34] and it's no, it's not going to work. No, it's not going to work. So taking these things and that's
[02:02:41] what that's another good thing is you have to experience some, in some way you have to experience
[02:02:46] and that's one good thing that happens at echelon front is you are in an environment where you
[02:02:53] get to use this stuff real world and that's been interesting, you know, sort of after the first
[02:02:58] six weeks of the COVID lockdown, not even six weeks, the feedback we started getting was
[02:03:05] from many of the companies we work with was this stuff really works and the reason that they were
[02:03:11] saying is because they'd never really been tested in it before. Yeah, you know, they're doing
[02:03:15] great, they want to do even better and now they go and do better and they go, wow, the stuff really
[02:03:19] works, doesn't it? So hard to learn and the thing that makes it hardest to learn is if you fall into
[02:03:29] the trap of I know it. I wish it was another, I'm familiar with it, right? There's got to be a lesser
[02:03:36] form of I know because I know as a, there's a, that's a hundred percent. I know as a hundred percent.
[02:03:41] There should be a lesser form of no, maybe I'm familiar with. I, I, I understand that
[02:03:49] a decent level, some of the concepts that we talk about. This is not new to me. Yeah, this is not
[02:03:56] new to me. That sounds a little bit. Is that a little bit kind of? Yeah, no, is it a little bit
[02:04:01] arrogant? Yeah. Oh, okay. That's why that's kind of part of the gig. No, I'm looking for a word that
[02:04:08] actually says, I'm very familiar with this, but I know that I have a lot to learn. We should
[02:04:14] know that. Yes, I'm not sure. Okay. Yeah. The word for how I feel. The word for how we should all
[02:04:20] feel. Yeah. Okay. I thought, which is I am striving to be better. I'm familiar. I know that
[02:04:27] these things exist and I know that I don't, you know, like them, like basically seeing your
[02:04:33] white belt at this. Yeah. And maybe it's like saying I'm a purple belt at this. Yeah. Which is
[02:04:38] that I'm just on the path. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, hoiler back in the day, long time ago, I did a website
[02:04:44] form and he was at my house and it was me and kid polygroom. And it's and hoiler. What's up, kid? What's
[02:04:50] up, hoiler? Yeah. And so we're me and kid, balie girl, we're lucky. And he said, hey, so we're looking
[02:05:00] at it and he's like, hey, we're trying to integrate his enemy. We're doing some technical stuff,
[02:05:04] so I'm doing this. I was like, okay, this is what you got to do. You got to do this, I think. And
[02:05:08] he's like, maybe if we did this, so we tried it his way, boom, and it worked. So it like, you know,
[02:05:12] it's rendered on the screen. And hoiler's like, it's his website, but he doesn't know this part. He's like,
[02:05:16] oh, I'm a white belt at this stuff. And it gave me that feeling that that you just mentioned.
[02:05:22] I know, like it reminded me of that time. Kind of like he knows what's going on, but he has no
[02:05:27] idea how deep it goes, you know, in the back end like that. Yeah. Well, there's that, there's definitely
[02:05:32] that time period when you start your jitsu. And you, the first couple days, it takes a little while to go,
[02:05:39] wow, I really don't know a lot, because in the beginning, you think it's finite. Yeah. That's the
[02:05:44] big difference. Yeah. In the beginning, you think it's 13 moves. And then you go, oh, wait, it's actually
[02:05:51] probably 35 moves. When I started a jitsu, I thought it was nine moves. That's what that was the whole thing.
[02:05:56] I didn't give me my black belt up in here. I know it's going to get America. I know the
[02:06:01] gui-atine. I know the rear naked choke. I'm good. What? What? Give me my black belt. And then you get
[02:06:08] really good at it. And the better you get, the more you realize, I don't know some stuff. I don't know
[02:06:14] a lot of stuff. It's a lot of stuff. I thought that way. And that's the way this is. That's the way this is.
[02:06:22] And then you get the, and like I said, the biggest thing I don't watch out for is that trap.
[02:06:25] And we got to avoid the trap and speaking of avoiding the trap and speaking of staying on the path.
[02:06:33] Echo Charles, if we want to avoid the trap of complacency, complacency, we want to improve. We want to
[02:06:40] get better. We want to be better. Recommendations. So complacency and how do I, you know,
[02:06:46] where why does complacency come in as far as working out goes? Because you think you're good.
[02:06:51] You think you're good to go or maybe you don't need it as much or whatever. Because here's a big one.
[02:06:55] There's going to sound kind of offbeat. Maybe, maybe not. I don't know. But let's say you get married kids.
[02:07:04] That's an easy one. But my favorite thing is when people tell me, oh man, I was really
[02:07:08] in the G.J. 2, but I got two kids. Yeah. And I was just looking at them. I got four kids.
[02:07:13] What? Yeah. As if, well, I'm old. I've had people got me. I'm just all old now. Like, I will do
[02:07:20] either like I'm 42. I'm like, right? But there's two. There's two kind of reasons or excuses or
[02:07:30] whatever there when they're like, I got kids. That's either saying I don't have time. Well,
[02:07:34] okay. So back to the working out thing when you, when you get after you get married. There's two
[02:07:38] reasons. Kind of like, oh well, my focus is on something else now. They don't mean you like,
[02:07:43] I don't really have time to do these extra curricular things. What I'm going to call it? And then
[02:07:48] the other one is, I don't need to anymore. Because a lot of people that's kind of whether they
[02:07:53] have it consciously or not, it's like, well, I don't need to necessarily be in great shape.
[02:07:57] Because I already have a girl kind of thing because part of their reason is to attract a girl
[02:08:02] easy to insane. And it goes both ways. It's a two-way street, obviously. So that can be one of
[02:08:07] the reasons for complacency. Like, I don't need to stay in shape that much. Most definitely.
[02:08:11] Yeah, I don't need to lift heavy anymore. Not to say you should be lifting heavy, not to say,
[02:08:16] you should it be. But I'm just saying that's a potential excuse. Seems like,
[02:08:21] anyway lifting heavy or not, doing jiu-jitsu or not. Because some of us are not doing jiu-jitsu.
[02:08:27] Not recommended, but those are the facts. Some of them. I mean, it's not recommended to not do
[02:08:31] jiu-jitsu. Correct. That's a problem. But those are the facts. Some of the time, seems like saying,
[02:08:36] well, last. Do you find it weird that I said here and say that these kind of connections that
[02:08:42] opened the door to begin to understand some of this stuff came from this weird thing where you
[02:08:47] roll around on the floor with another person and try and choke them. Yeah. It's kind of weird, right?
[02:08:53] Yeah, you know, from maybe, yeah, from the outside, I can see that. But the inside, you're like,
[02:08:58] probably this thing is just completely explaining jiu-jitsu. You know what's a weird parallel as well.
[02:09:04] It's like lifting weights and just your human body. The human body, how it works is like the same thing.
[02:09:10] It's like a team of systems. That's true. Doing one thing for the other, you know. And they have to
[02:09:15] cover and move for each other. They got a adapt. It's like all this stuff. Anyway, it's painting
[02:09:20] human body. You need supplements. If you're going hard in the paint on the path, you used to say
[02:09:25] supplementation. It was kind of one of your go-to words. And now you're gone back, you know,
[02:09:30] now you're just saying like supplements. Yeah. Yeah. Does that sound more like marketing? I don't know.
[02:09:36] I just was really used to you saying supplementation, which was not a normal thing to say. It seems
[02:09:41] like maybe you're just sort of falling in with the norm. Maybe you got peer pressured. Maybe.
[02:09:46] All right. Well, let's go back to supplementation because now they just said it. You're good now.
[02:09:50] The way you just feel like you're back. I feel like you're back. I'm back.
[02:09:54] Cool. Well, you saying it kind of brought it to light. Like, yeah, I kind of like how supplementation sounds.
[02:09:59] You seem saying when you're on the path in the game, going hard, which we are, you know,
[02:10:04] unless we're not on all the fun. Did you lift today? I did not lift weights today. I'm going to lift
[02:10:08] your head. Yeah. Hardcore. Well, yeah. For sure. Till failure. Anyway, you joined sometimes. Take a
[02:10:14] beating, right? Supplementation will help that. As Dave Berks has no factor. We got supplementation for that.
[02:10:22] Joint warfare, super-cryoteleïve, which I took both of today. I'm on the routine. Of course.
[02:10:27] I got some help from you, obviously, but, you know, some people out on the interwebs, out on the field,
[02:10:32] you know, they're demonstrating that they can stick to that routine, leaving it out on the, uh,
[02:10:37] oh, did you make adjustments? Yes, sir. You got to bring your bathroom now? No. Where?
[02:10:41] On the counter. In the kitchen. We're always come down. I always come down. Seems like.
[02:10:45] But the last bathroom was just a no-go, non-starter. Well, you know, like to be eaten stuff
[02:10:50] on your bathroom, even if just a little capsule. Given my current routine. Yeah.
[02:10:56] I said, I said, go pills to be a little bright, little feel like a original thing.
[02:11:01] And I don't like to take you. So there's that I didn't know this. There's a difference in a capsule,
[02:11:07] which has the little coating. It's got stuff inside it. And it pilles like a hard thing, right?
[02:11:14] And they're a little bit harder. Swallow or whatever. I found the capsules are hard.
[02:11:19] Oh, really? I found it. Well, that's too bad. You're not in charge of a supplement company.
[02:11:26] Because the original go pills that he made were, I said, hey, make these things. I want to,
[02:11:30] you know, have this stuff in just a little bit, but making it, make it, you know, smaller. So
[02:11:34] the whole story was, hey, man, you know this Dave, you don't want to, you don't have to drink a
[02:11:41] drink before you go and present to a group for two, a half hours. Because you don't want to say,
[02:11:46] hey, can I even hold on to a little bio-breaker? No. In fact, when people tell me,
[02:11:52] hey, you know why you're speaking, why you put water up here? And I said, if I drink,
[02:11:55] if I have to drink during the next one hour, if I go hold on the second wall and presenting,
[02:12:01] I need to take a drink right now. Because my voice is dry. If I have to do that, we got a problem.
[02:12:05] I failed. You're not, you don't want to, you're not sitting there to see me drink. We're not drinking.
[02:12:12] Now if I'm a during the master, I'm on stage for six hours. Yeah, we're up there drinking and
[02:12:17] chilling and whatever. Plus you guys are taking turns. Yeah. Yeah. But the, so the go pills,
[02:12:24] I said, hey, man, I can't be drinking a drink, filling my bladder up wall. I'm, you know, before
[02:12:30] I was, I don't want to have to stop. Can you make something compact, compressed? There you go.
[02:12:35] That's the Dispongo in a pill format. Get that, get that mine.
[02:12:41] A ranking. So just to be clear, the Displing Go is a pill or a capsule. It is a capsule.
[02:12:47] Okay. So the original one that be little made was a pill, because that's what I had requested.
[02:12:53] I told them the wrong thing. I didn't understand the difference. I don't know the language. Okay. So pill,
[02:12:59] compressed, yes. capsule is a capsule that you can unscrew and take the powder out. Jell cap.
[02:13:05] Oh, yes. Yes. So and divide them in those are gel caps. Yes. They are different. So the three
[02:13:12] delivery methodologies. Just to be clear. Yeah. Okay. There you go. So nonetheless, these things will help you
[02:13:21] on the path. Big time. Also, again, we mentioned the D3. Boom, that's it. Every, that's a daily.
[02:13:27] Those are small too. So that's like kind of like no excuse. You know some people that like
[02:13:30] I'm right. So I'm going to peel some people like that. This one, no factor. It's a gel cap,
[02:13:36] which is our use. I used to take, I used to take pills one at a time. One, like so I would take
[02:13:42] whatever seven or eight pills. Right. So you, I would take one. One. Why just, just, I just didn't like it.
[02:13:48] Kind of like what you're saying. I was one of those people. And then I realized it was inefficient.
[02:13:52] It is. And I had to overcome this, you know, scenario. I'll tell you the technique to swallow pills.
[02:13:57] You swallow 10 pills at once if you want. Well, I've never tried it, but I'm saying given the theory
[02:14:02] theoretically. Because I, what do I take? And this is all I want. Two, two, two,
[02:14:07] divitements. Oh, you take two of those? Yeah. I take, okay. Go ahead.
[02:14:11] A three, acrylic oil. Three joint warfare. And everyone's on all, don't throw into cold war.
[02:14:19] So what is that? Two, six. I don't know. I didn't do the math nonetheless. It's a lot. Let's say it's six.
[02:14:24] Yeah, I take all those at once. Yeah. All you got to do is when you drink your water with it,
[02:14:28] wait, you drink water with it? Yep. Yeah, that, you know, some guys are advanced. They just boom.
[02:14:31] Yeah, that's one speed. That's an hardcore dude. Yeah. But we're not all there. So we're going to drink
[02:14:36] our water with it. But, bro, all you do, some people, they lean their head back. Oh, here's the thing. When you
[02:14:41] lean your head back like that, the narrowed, the goat chamber. No, well, I don't know, maybe
[02:14:46] me not, but that's not what I found as far as feel. Oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh,
[02:14:51] those capsules that you talk about, they float in the water. You want it to sink really,
[02:14:57] the pills sink just if they're coated with something. God, it's like anyway. So if you go straight
[02:15:02] up straight back, boom, the delcaps float sometimes they don't go, go down. Interesting. This is
[02:15:07] what you do. You turn your head to the side. Okay. So you don't say it, no, because look, it's still
[02:15:15] floats, but since it's to the side, it's in the side of your throat, not on the top of it. So it goes down
[02:15:20] easier. Five pills. I'm still doing every day. One speeder I was thinking, I knew how to take
[02:15:26] capsules. Yeah. Now I learned the truth. I guess technically I shouldn't even say that's the best
[02:15:31] one. So currently that is the leading way. My little daughter was getting sick. And I said,
[02:15:37] hey, you need to take some cold water. And so then she does not like to take pills or capsules.
[02:15:43] And I said, no problem. I am broken open, mix it up in water. It was wider. You cannot do this.
[02:15:50] Because it is because there's garlic in there, like a lot of garlic, which is an awesome ingredient
[02:15:57] to have. But man, I mixed it up and it was nasty. Try it with one just to cut it, just to cut it, see.
[02:16:06] That would be a that would be an exercise in discipline. Just mix up cold water pills and just
[02:16:11] drink them like shots. Yeah. Man, I think maybe sprinkle a month of eggs or something. Some baking
[02:16:17] or something. That might be actually interesting. Interesting concept. But that's the thing.
[02:16:21] I'm sure cold water is not just garlic powder. Yeah, no, for sure. There's some like actual
[02:16:27] that's when you mix it with water and smell it. You smell it. And then you take it off.
[02:16:34] Well, nonetheless, however you choose to take these things, they will help you 100% in the game on the path.
[02:16:41] I'm just saying, don't forget about milk protein, the form of these are protein,
[02:16:45] additional protein. Not like you're not eating protein ever. If you weren't, it would be
[02:16:50] bone now you are. Yeah. There you go. When else chocolate, yes, we're dead lifting.
[02:16:59] But like we're not dead lifting. No, we're not. I should be dead lifting. We should be. I think so.
[02:17:04] That's my opinion too. Well, when it's chocolate, you have to do with that because it allows you
[02:17:09] to deadlifate thousand pounds. Is it eight? Yeah. Yeah. Well, that's the guarantee. Could be right.
[02:17:15] It could be more. If you go harder, I guess. And you get all this stuff at the vitamin shop,
[02:17:18] the vitamin shop in your local A.L. Area of Operations. Yes, sir. Also at originmean.com. If you
[02:17:26] don't want to go to the vitamin shop, you want the delivery system to your door.
[02:17:31] And you go, yeah, originmean.com. Also at originmean.com is due to stuff,
[02:17:37] geese, rash guards. There's t-shirts and other clothes or whatever, but more importantly,
[02:17:45] actually not importantly, but additionally, significantly, additionally, genes and boots.
[02:17:51] There's something else coming. You probably don't even know about because you're not really like,
[02:17:58] you know, they're like, good relationship. It's in this circle. So, you know, the material
[02:18:04] that the ghee pants are made of, it's called atomic twill. So, and it's durable enough to be
[02:18:12] ghee pants obviously. And I was like, Pete, what do you think? I could use just a pair of pants.
[02:18:21] So, he made them and they are freaking legit. Yeah, like work pants, but they're, yeah, they're basically
[02:18:28] just pants, but they're not genes. Yeah, they're in jail. Yeah, they'll be coming. That'll be working.
[02:18:34] Yeah, yeah. Yes, all made in America, by the way, which is a big deal. Fabric, cotton,
[02:18:39] grown in America all the way to the, to the, to the deal. What about, what about, like, the things that
[02:18:45] you put together to make them stay up? You know what I mean? There's a certain thing there. What's
[02:18:51] that called? No, no, what you're talking about? What's it called? That keeps the two pieces of cotton
[02:18:55] fabric together. What's it called? I don't know. Not a zipper. About the zipper is the,
[02:19:01] what? The button. That's right. Yeah. The buttons. Yes, even the buttons are made in America.
[02:19:06] Yeah, works of art. Really function and fashion. As a word. No less. What do you mean?
[02:19:11] Duckcomps where you get all this good stuff. Also, we're going to getting good stuff. Wait, Dave,
[02:19:17] how'd you like the Yajako Palmer? You're going to go go cam. I liked it. Is it, is it the top
[02:19:23] of your list? Or you, because you're on a, what, tax average? What? Where we are? No hit on, on, on
[02:19:28] tax average, but I was doing some traffic thunder. But now that, now that,
[02:19:34] Palmer's in the can, that's number one. That was just just went to the top. Well, dude,
[02:19:39] Palmer powders all I had. Yeah. And the thing about go is like, I get them, because I'm going somewhere.
[02:19:47] I'm on the go. So I'm on time to mix up the powder all the time. The powder was like,
[02:19:51] almost a treat almost like milk. Yeah. So I'm like, I got time here. I'm going to get crushed
[02:19:55] ice. I'm going to get the powder. I'm going to mix it up. I got some time. And I'm going to just,
[02:19:59] now, just done. Oh, dude. Yeah. Yeah. I agree with the Jako Palmer scenario. Like,
[02:20:06] it's, you was kind of surprisingly good. You know, when you think, oh, yeah. Oh, I just do
[02:20:11] you lemon cool. Nice. Nothing new. Hey, there's nothing new to me. Boom. Take a hit. The
[02:20:18] song is greater than the song. What is it? The parts, you, you feel I'm saying, but anyway, it was
[02:20:23] that sort of situation. It's good. Okay. Anyway, speaking of good Jako is a store,
[02:20:27] called Jako Star. This is where you can get your teacher. It's Hats.
[02:20:32] Other cool stuff on there that represent on the path. This Blinny goes freedom.
[02:20:38] Good. Take the high ground or the high ground. I'll take you all this stuff. You can find
[02:20:43] Jako's story.com really. You know, we think that it's cool stuff. But, you know, gone there,
[02:20:49] checking out. You like something. Get some. You know, all these ways. By the way, if you just
[02:20:53] like the podcast anymore, support it, these are good ways to support the podcast because other than that,
[02:21:00] well, I mean, the podcast, we don't have a bind to firewall. Paywall. Yeah, paywall. Right.
[02:21:07] That's what everybody wants me to do. Yeah. Put a pod in the paywall. They, they, they want that
[02:21:13] because all the podcasts are now the new media stuff. Yeah. So well.
[02:21:20] They're doing levels of it. We don't want to do that. We just want to do what we're doing. Yeah.
[02:21:26] And in order to do what we're doing a little support. It's nice on that one. Hey, if you,
[02:21:32] and speaking of this podcast, subscribe to a check it out. Echo Charles thinks that's important
[02:21:37] for me to say right now. I don't think it's unimportant. How about that? We also have another podcast
[02:21:43] that's out right now. It's called the unravelling. The Jako unravelling podcast,
[02:21:48] Dereau Cooper and me talking about things in the world and how things in the world, when you unravel
[02:21:55] them, you find out where they came from, why they're happening and it gives you better understanding
[02:21:59] of the things that are happening right now. Used to be called the threat. We had to change the name.
[02:22:05] There's also ground to podcasts, which we haven't recorded a while, but we're doing it on the
[02:22:09] warrior kid podcasts as well. No, forget about the warrior kid soap made by Aiden. Who's up there in a
[02:22:14] farm taking goat milk at a young age with a running a business so that the entire world
[02:22:25] can stay clean. We have a YouTube channel where Echo Charles is supposed to make videos
[02:22:33] and he does sometimes. We'll say, sure. I'm not going to argue with the one.
[02:22:38] Some of them have explosions. Music, some have music and other enhancements. Skeletons.
[02:22:48] Sure. Fire. Tanks. Aircraft. Yeah. Unless some don't. Yeah. And everyone that thinks
[02:22:59] that Echo Charles should put one Easter egg. One, there pleasant surprise into these three-hour podcasts.
[02:23:09] Like when Dave Burke says a mortar exploded, there should be a mortar exploding in this room.
[02:23:17] This momentarily. And then the conversation continues. A lot of people think that's what should
[02:23:23] happen. So we all have a little bit of fun when we're watching a three-hour. Yeah. Well,
[02:23:30] so I will keep exploring that as an option for sure. So one else. Oh, yes. Psychological
[02:23:37] warfare. Don't forget about that one. Hey, when you don't feel like lifting, Brad, all of
[02:23:42] me yesterday straight up didn't feel like lifting today. But I did. Yeah. But you already have
[02:23:48] psychology for for planning ahead on repeat. You know what I was doing? Yes. I do. No,
[02:23:53] unfortunately. If you wanted in your head, maybe not a repeat. Maybe repeat for a little bit
[02:23:57] in this I get it. Go to like wherever you can buy MP3's Amazon. You know Google Play All these places.
[02:24:02] Get psychological warfare by Jocca Willing. What it is is Jocca will talk in your ear telling you
[02:24:08] why you shouldn't skip the workout, why you shouldn't eat a donut, pound that donut or the whole
[02:24:13] box or whatever. Another butter cookies. You know you get different. Oh, no, let's see. You know,
[02:24:21] gently, pragmatically, logically bring you past those moments of weakness and boom, you get you get
[02:24:27] stuff done. It's really good. 100% effective too. By the way. Flipside Canvas. If you want some kind of
[02:24:33] message to hang on your wall, my brother Dakota Myers making it for you. All kinds of messages,
[02:24:39] important messages. Check that out, flipsidecamus.com. Got some books. One of them was written by this
[02:24:47] guy right over here. Dave Burke. The code. The code the evaluation of the protocols. What do you
[02:24:53] got? What do you got Dave? Dave, it's still getting a ton of messages from troopers who are still
[02:24:57] on the path and in the game. It's so legit to hear. Has something as small as this little wood
[02:25:04] field guide? Yeah, field guide. We weren't really sure what to call. No, but it's been you. It's
[02:25:10] useful. Yeah, which has been awesome. So keep those messages coming in. I love here. Yeah, this is like
[02:25:16] one of those things where, you know, I called it like a reminder almost, but it's kind of like
[02:25:20] okay, cool. A reminder doesn't make that much of an impact maybe on your mind, but think about it
[02:25:24] every day at the let's say at the end of the day, right? Most of us don't think every single day.
[02:25:29] Most of us don't think, how do I do today? How did I do today in all these like critical areas
[02:25:37] as far as like making an improvement in what you're even doing? Imagine if you were part of
[02:25:42] anything and you never assessed that thing. Yeah. Doesn't even compute. Imagine if you wanted to make
[02:25:48] something better. You would assess that thing and see where you could improve it. Now imagine that
[02:25:53] the most important thing we have is our lives and people go through their whole lives without assessing
[02:25:58] where they are, who they are, what they're doing, where they're going. Most important thing you need
[02:26:03] to know on the battlefield is where you are. Yeah. Then you can move forward. Yeah. That's the, that's
[02:26:11] the protocols in this book. It's funny like you know when you're like your kid and you're trying to like,
[02:26:16] I don't know, make the football team right and then you have like try out switch it, you know, a day
[02:26:20] or a week or what is sometimes a week or whatever and after every little session you like come home
[02:26:26] and you're like, how did I do how did I do how did I do? That's just for some intro mural football game.
[02:26:30] We're talking about life. Same same thing. You would think it'd be more obvious. You would think,
[02:26:35] yeah, that book, that that book would just be, hey, this is, hey, what are you guys doing writing?
[02:26:39] This is, there's, you know, there's this already exists. Yeah. What are you doing writing this?
[02:26:44] It doesn't exist. Now it does. The code the evaluation protocols. They've Burke, leadership
[02:26:50] strategy and tactics. What percentage of questions that you get in your constant leadership as a,
[02:26:56] as a leadership instructor, as a leadership coach, as an executive coach, what percentage of
[02:27:03] questions are answered that you have to answer that you could either answer on the fly and say, hey,
[02:27:10] here's a good way to look at it or you could if you had an extra 14 second say, hold on a second,
[02:27:15] go to page 237 and leadership strategy and tactics. What's the percentage? It's a big number.
[02:27:24] I don't want to do the math. It's a big number. I don't want to say it's all there because that would be
[02:27:29] that be a lot to say it's all there, but it's there. And if it's not exactly there, there's a version
[02:27:36] of it that's there that will fit wherever you are. The other side of just just read that book.
[02:27:42] Just read it and it's there. Yeah, I think what's good about that book is this stuff that
[02:27:49] we're talking about today where you have to pull these other things and you kind of want to start
[02:27:54] fitting them together. I think this that book is a good step of taking these various principles
[02:28:01] and starting to see how they play into the world, which I think is a good thing. Yes, kids,
[02:28:08] you might have kids, you might know kids, you might as well get them on the path.
[02:28:13] Way of the warrior kid, one, two and three. Those are available. Those are helpful.
[02:28:21] I'm telling you right now, if you could get a kid, these books, you are going to change the
[02:28:29] trajectory of their lives. And I know that's an arrogant and an an an an an a bold statement to make,
[02:28:34] but I hear it all the time from parents, from teachers and from kids themselves.
[02:28:43] It's it's just just please just get it for the kids, get it for the kids. And then if you're
[02:28:50] going to smaller kid, think about what it's like being a small kid, the world. You have to
[02:28:55] contend with the world. It's a scary place. We have fears to overcome Mikey and the dragons teach
[02:29:00] kids how to overcome fear. This point of course, freedom field manual, how to get after it
[02:29:07] for adults and extreme ownership and the dichotomy of leadership, the fundamental principles of
[02:29:12] combat leadership that we talk about all the time that I wrote with my brother, Dave Babin.
[02:29:15] We have Escelon front leadership consultancy. What do we do there, Dave? We teach leadership.
[02:29:21] Now we help make the connection between all this stuff and the world that these people are
[02:29:25] living in and it's the coolest thing in the world because I get to think about this stuff. We get
[02:29:31] to think about this stuff all the time, just just completely awesome. Real world application. Yes.
[02:29:38] On a daily basis, into a multitude of scenarios and the outcomes are always the same. It's like,
[02:29:44] yes, we actually know what to do there. We can help you. Go to go to Escelonfront.com for that.
[02:29:54] And look, you don't have to necessarily have us to come to you or you don't necessarily have to
[02:29:59] come to us. We had to cancel one of our monsters that bummed a lot of people out, meet you, all of us.
[02:30:04] We got bummed out. But this is this is 2020. We are online, EF online, all the stuff that we're
[02:30:14] talking about when you need direct contact to help get through things, to improve your leadership
[02:30:22] capability, to improve your team's leadership capability, to get you all aligned. Go to EF online.com.
[02:30:29] You might be thinking that, oh, that sounds like something where I'll go on there and
[02:30:35] and watch a video about something. And you will go. You can go and watch videos. But you can also
[02:30:40] come and ask Dave Burke a question. You can come and ask me a question. You can argue with me.
[02:30:46] You can say, actually, Jockel, cover, move, didn't work from you in the situation.
[02:30:50] I will gladly discuss this with you. That is what we are doing with EF online. So it's awesome.
[02:30:58] What I'm going to say. If you talked about it, because we have a whole new platform right now for
[02:31:04] EF online, good point. Yes. The feedback we're getting on that is how easy it is for people
[02:31:13] out there to connect with us directly in real time. Not to talk theory, not to talk principle,
[02:31:18] but to talk. I'm having this actual problem or can you help me? Yes, I can. And then we're getting,
[02:31:24] we're getting feedback, we're getting sit-rubs. Sit-rubs. Hey, the thing you told me yesterday,
[02:31:29] I just did it. It worked. Thanks. And if you haven't, you need to tell people about this,
[02:31:35] because the EF online access is so legit. It's growing quickly. But it's growing because
[02:31:40] one of the other cool things about it is that we'll get a question. We'll get a question like
[02:31:44] little chat box. Dave, got a question. But I'll be answering another question. Before I get to that
[02:31:50] next question, five other people, other troopers have said, hey, had the same problem at my job.
[02:31:56] This is what I did. And by the time I go to answer it, five of the troopers have already
[02:32:00] engaged and helped them and given them some, so the interaction between the other troopers
[02:32:05] is just as good as the interaction with us. Yeah, and all that stuff is taking place. We have a
[02:32:08] forum in there too. So all that stuff, you can go in there and say, hey, my boss just told me to
[02:32:13] do this. This is what I think. And you know, one of us EF instructors or one of the other troopers,
[02:32:19] you know, oh, you know what? I'm in HR. I'm the HR chief at my company. Here's what you should think
[02:32:25] about. So it's just an awesome format. It's an awesome thing. And even though we had to cancel one
[02:32:30] monster, we do, we are going to do the Phoenix Monster, September 16th and 17th, Dallas, December
[02:32:36] third and fourth, go to extremeownership.com for details. Look, it's probably going to be social distancing.
[02:32:40] We're not going to have a bunch of seats or we're going to have to get, we have to put away a bunch of
[02:32:43] seats. So it's going to sell out quicker than normal. So if you want to come check it out, say,
[02:32:49] P, we got EF Overwatch and we are placing some awesome people from the military into executive
[02:32:56] leadership positions and leadership positions throughout the country and awesome businesses,
[02:33:01] people that companies that want to have folks that understand the principles that we talk about here,
[02:33:07] go to EF Overwatch.com, whether you need leaders or whether you are a leader, leaving the military,
[02:33:14] let us know and we will connect you. And then America's Mighty Warriors.org,
[02:33:20] Mark Lee's Mom, Mom Lee, who has made it her mission to help families, service members,
[02:33:29] gold star families all over the world. If you want to get involved with her, she is getting after
[02:33:38] it and she has been for 14 years and if you want to help out or get involved, go to America's
[02:33:45] MightyOrriers.org. And if you want some more of my hyped up hypotheses or you want to hear more
[02:33:57] of Echos semi-serious speculations, maybe you just want to hear one more of Dave's stringent
[02:34:07] stories. Then you can find us on the interwebs, on Twitter, on Instagram and on Facebook,
[02:34:14] Dave is at David R. Burke. Echos out of which I was an I am at Jocca Willink and thank you to all
[02:34:21] the men and women in uniform throughout history who learned these lessons in blood and pass them
[02:34:29] onto our modern warriors who put them to use, put these lessons to use to keep peace in the world
[02:34:38] and to police and law enforcement and firefighters and paramedics and EMTs and dispatchers
[02:34:42] and correctional officers and border patrol and secret service. Thanks to all of you for making
[02:34:48] sure we have peace here at home and to everyone else out there, remember these lessons and first
[02:34:59] and foremost remember how this book started that the Paramount Combat lesson learned from
[02:35:06] every operation is the vital importance of leadership. Aggressive and determined leadership is the
[02:35:16] priceless factor which inspires command and upon which all success in battle depends.
[02:35:28] Leadership is responsible for success or failure so don't fall into the trap.
[02:35:35] We are not good enough go out there and be better. And until next time this is Dave and Echo and
[02:35:49] Jockel out.