Jocko Podcast 235 w/ Gen. John Gronski: Setting the Conditions for Victory

2020-06-24T20:23:30Z

Join the conversation on Twitter/Instagram: @jockowillink @echocharles @johngronskileads 0:00:00 - Opening 0:09:51 - General John Gronski. 2:49:51 - How to stay on THE PATH. JOCKO STORE Apparel: https://www.jockostore.com/collections/men Jocko Fuel: https://originmaine.com/origin-labs/ Origin Jeans and Clothes: https://originmaine.com/durable-goods/ Origin Gis: https://originmaine.com/bjj-mma-fit/ 3:08:18 - Closing Gratitude

AI summary of episode

You know, one thing I did over there because you know, the days over there could seem like Groundhog Day to the average soldier out there on a patrol day after day, you know, seeing, you know, these Iraqis give them the stink eye and all that. It's kind of like, you know, when you're in a, like, I don't know, maybe the police forces or something like that, where it's like, hey, we have the situation, then the police force like mounts up and they're like, okay, what's the situation? We learned we're going to Ramadi and then we kept thinking man are they going to change their mind because you know we were getting you know we were getting all the classified report you know what was going on over there as we saw how violent was and by the way. I mean, you know, 100 hours, you know, you know, the buildup certainly was longer, but you know, 100 hour war there. I was commissioned as a matter of, you know, you're about to admit this to about to know, I know that, but, you know, I'm still proud of my service, but I was a medical service core officer. Yeah, and then ship them over and then, you know, then, hey, you know, here's some jeans, which, you know, I don't know. I don't like to get wrapped up in, you know, people that are going to argue political points about, you know, the way things unfolded that the way things unfolded, right? It's going through with that mother and father are going through with the brothers sisters are going through with the wife or you know going through the spouse is going through and that's what gets me most emotional when I think about that. Because a lot of guys didn't know who I was you know who's this new guy coming to take command of brigade heels over to those three soldiers he said this is Colonel Gransky we're in good hands with him. We could deal with them, you know, because we could let them know that, hey, you, you know, men things settled down here when you get enough of your own sons and Iraqi police. Which I know I know people, um, I know it's hard to understand that concept of wanting to go to war. So I actually left the the country, but even, you know, like I liked you said, you know, they got murdered and that really. And that was the al Qaeda in Iraq segment who was doing that because, you know, as you as you know, you know, you mean there there there were different segments of the insurgency. And for the other soldiers that we might have got you know 40 soldiers from Illinois or you know another 130 soldiers from Michigan And listen to what they say, you know, they know things you don't know. I mean, you know, it was kind of like a family farm where, you know, I mean, all my brothers and sisters Jack or this is the weird thing when I heard second brigade was going to get mobilizing over to Iraq something told me I was going to go with them and I don't know what it was I just believed I was going to go over there with that brigade and. We're going to do a massive push through and I was telling my guys from a political standpoint, it made sense to me because this is why I told my guys I said look, I think this is going to happen and the reason I think it's going to happen is because Maliki, who just is the prime minister and he's a shea and this is a city filled with Sunni people. but I know there was a I.E.D. that the destroyed a tank in the Malab area which you talk about you know we're a soccer stadium was a tank commander was able to get all of his crewmen out of that tank without anybody getting wounded were worse and there's a fight that went on down there for at least 24 hours and a few soldiers were killed during that engagement from from the first at a five or six And I don't know if it's true or not, I don't know if you know it's true or not. One thing I did want to back up on a little bit though, Jocco is is, you know, when I came back when I did make that decision to join the National Guard, because the guys there seem like people I wanted to work with. And it was we could kill those bad guys and we could kill those bad guys and it was you know you could see you know you talk to a company commander and anyone of those company commanders that were out there they'd go out they'd get in patrol they'd get in a gunfight. One thing I learned over there, even from the Army, you know, a lot of times in our, if you're infantry, you know, you think all the other branches don't matter. Yeah I mean that was their goal you know talk about purpose you know talk about inspiring people by giving them a purpose that that was their purpose and life was to create. And I know, you know, obviously a lot of social unrest and there's a lot of things that may not be perfect about our country, but I get guaranteed this after being over and I rack after spending the last three years in Europe and traveling to about 40 different countries over there. And so I get back home, I'm talking to my wife and she goes, you know John, I think that's a good idea because your kids and your grandkids need to know the story. He was gonna go he was getting from a special operations group was going to do an operation and he was going to take some of his you know his seals and is Iraqi soldiers they were going to go and help them. One of the first things that we start planning for is like a philusia style clearance of Ramadi and the plan as I understood it and again, it seems like a long time ago in some ways, and this is one of those ways, trying to remember exactly, but the plan that as I remember is we were starting to organize this thing was that all when the one one AD showed up and we have the two two eight and the one one AD on the ground at the same time, we got double the combat power. You know, we're talking about extreme ownership a little bit earlier and you know, the, I opened it up talking about a blue on blue that we had you are there at the time. so you know just because two six nine was rotating out doesn't mean they didn't need tanks there so this is a great story about uh resilience I guess you could call it with with this national guard platoon that I had working with two six nine armor it was a it was a uh platoon from an armor unit in the twenty eight I.D. uh platoon of soldiers so that was I think we had about forty soldiers there So it's it's just have to again use, you know, real big in the army, you know, especially when you're a lieutenant or something and hey, you got to make a decision. And he said you know he is a good soldier you know he needs alcoholism counseling etc etc but he said I believe he's worth retaining. And he listened and that that was our attitude we were so thankful and grateful that you know you all helped us so much when we got on the ground and just the the the other thing you know we just had. They'd shoot at some people they wouldn't really know we would leave dead bodies in the streets of the insurgents and it was of the insurgents and that just seemed to be a really good asset and something that made the conventional guys man they were they were so happy when we'd show up at one of their one of their combat outposts they would be so happy for us to show up there because they knew that they'd send out a patrol and they'd get in a gunfight for sure and sometimes they'd kill a bad guy but they knew that we would we would rack up these kills and what's what's good about it is it allowed us to eliminate the bad guys wall protecting the populist Then in embarrass anybody did their job very professionally as they were conducting force pro at these at these bases because again after 90 11, you know, you know, what was going to happen with terrorist attacks at our installations over there. And I remember thinking, oh, I'm going to, I'm going to get mine because, you know, I was, I mean, you might have thought you wanted to go to war when you were 33 years old.

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Episode transcript

[00:00:00] This is Jockel Podcast number 235 with echo Charles and me, Jockel Willing. Good evening, echo. Good evening.
[00:00:11] Can we may Earl?
[00:00:14] Wanted my brothers.
[00:00:18] Awesome guy, incredible seal.
[00:00:21] But at one point in time, I didn't know if you would keep his leg.
[00:00:32] The army doctors seemed neutral in their assessment and my assessment was that they actually didn't know.
[00:00:42] And because they didn't know, my guess is they didn't want to get his hopes up, but at the same time, they didn't want to crush his morale either.
[00:01:00] And Cowey is the seal that I wrote about in the opening of the book that I caught in my leadership. This is the seal that told me he wanted to stay.
[00:01:13] He begged me to let him stay there in Ramadi with us. He did not want to go home.
[00:01:21] He wanted to stay with his platoon. He wanted to stay with the task unit. He wanted to stay with the soldiers and marines that we were fighting alongside.
[00:01:37] But the fact of the matter was that he had to go.
[00:01:43] He had to go. He had to go to better medical facilities with more capabilities to see if he could keep his leg.
[00:01:57] And we're kind of standing there talking to him kind of saying goodbye because we know he has to go the brigade commander walked in.
[00:02:06] And we all quietly came to attention.
[00:02:15] And I'd spent a little bit of time with the brigade commander at this point. I'd brief him on our capabilities.
[00:02:22] I'd been in some planning meetings, seen him out on the streets during a few operations. He was very well respected amongst his troops.
[00:02:38] The troops that we were working with army and marines and his brigade combat team.
[00:02:44] The second brigade combat team of the 28th Infantry Division. The iron soldiers they had been fighting in Ramadi for almost a year.
[00:02:58] And we from Seal Team 3 task unit bruiser.
[00:03:04] We had nothing but the highest respect and admiration for all of them. They were professional.
[00:03:10] They were aggressive. They were courageous and let there be no doubt.
[00:03:18] That the soldiers and the marines from the 228 saved the lives of some of the Seals and Task unit bruiser.
[00:03:26] Because they told us where we should go and where we shouldn't go. They advised us on what to do and what not to do. They rolled out and guided us on operations.
[00:03:44] They mentored and they coached us.
[00:03:47] They did an outstanding job taking the fight to the enemy. And at this point when Cali got wounded, we'd been on the ground less than a month.
[00:04:01] And this was the first significantly wounded seal in Task unit bruiser.
[00:04:16] And this brigade commander Colonel John Gronsky was there to pay a purple heart on Cali's chest.
[00:04:22] And I watched the Colonel watch his attitude. Watch his behavior. He was solemn but at the same time he was uplifting.
[00:04:39] And what I could tell is I could tell that he cared.
[00:04:42] I could sense that. I think we all could sense that. And understand that at this point he had done this hundreds of times.
[00:04:56] In the last year awarded purple hearts to combat wounded soldiers.
[00:05:04] And each time I could tell that it mattered and each time I could tell that it left a mark.
[00:05:15] And I knew that the Colonel had also sent many men on their final flight home.
[00:05:31] Their angel flights.
[00:05:36] Colonel Gronsky had lost scores of men at this point killed in action.
[00:05:47] And those obviously leave an even deeper mark.
[00:05:55] They leave a scar.
[00:06:07] And I watched his Colonel Gronsky spoke quietly to Cali.
[00:06:14] I couldn't hear what he said, but Cali nodded and affirmed whatever had been said.
[00:06:22] And the Colonel put the purple heart metal on Cali's chest.
[00:06:30] And the showcans again.
[00:06:34] And the Colonel left.
[00:06:39] And Cali was soon on a helicopter heading out of her body.
[00:06:45] And he would not be our last casualty.
[00:06:55] But he was our first and he was my first significantly wounded man,
[00:07:04] while in a leadership position.
[00:07:06] And if you know anything about me, you know that I'm trying to learn constantly.
[00:07:19] And I learned from the Colonel that day, the way he acted, the way he carried himself.
[00:07:24] Maintaining that delicate balance.
[00:07:31] Because I could tell that he was steadfast, that these tragedies would not discourage his determination.
[00:07:50] But I could also see that he cared, that he truly cared about Cali.
[00:07:56] My brother, my seal, a man he'd never met before.
[00:08:06] I could also see that this was part of our job as leaders.
[00:08:14] We have to bear this burden. I would have to bear this burden.
[00:08:19] And we would have to press on.
[00:08:28] We would have to do our duty in the face of horrible wounds and tragic loss.
[00:08:39] And I knew that Colonel Gronsky had been there for almost a year.
[00:08:58] And I knew that I was just getting started.
[00:09:00] And I knew I had to do my best to carry the torch forward,
[00:09:14] to bear that burden of command to do my duty.
[00:09:18] And to follow that example.
[00:09:28] Well, to strange thing, because those memories of war, sometimes they feel like a long time ago, sometimes they feel like yesterday.
[00:09:59] But we don't forget them.
[00:10:04] And I won't forget what I learned.
[00:10:09] And it's an honor today to have the opportunity to learn some more from that Colonel.
[00:10:18] Although he is no longer a Colonel, he's no longer in the army. You retired as a two-star general, a major general who just wrote a book called The Ride of Our Lives.
[00:10:36] And he is here with us today.
[00:10:40] General Gronsky, thank you for coming on the program.
[00:10:44] Thank you.
[00:10:48] Yeah, it was really weird to see I was sitting in my car as you pulled up into the parking lot today.
[00:10:54] And you know what, I mean, obviously I haven't seen you since the spring of 2006.
[00:11:00] And I remember meeting you for the first time.
[00:11:04] I don't know if you'll remember meeting me for the first time.
[00:11:07] And I know that as the brigade commander, you're meeting people all the time, people are coming in and out.
[00:11:11] When I met you for the first time, I went to your tactical operations center.
[00:11:17] And right as I arrived, so we had been on the ground for just a matter of days. Do you remember this at all?
[00:11:24] Slightly, I'm going to be asked not in the detail you probably do.
[00:11:28] I would be shocked if you remembered it.
[00:11:30] I walked in and as I walked into your tactical operations center, the report comes in that one of my seal snipers, there's actually a BTF Tony, had just killed an IED in place or up on firecracker.
[00:11:46] And that kind of got announced in the tactical operations center.
[00:11:51] And you heard it.
[00:11:53] And I knew who you were because I had gathered in tell on you and read your background and done research to figure out who you were and what you know.
[00:12:02] And so I knew exactly who you were.
[00:12:05] And just that that announcement, following that announcement, you walked from the talk into your office and then people walked me into your office.
[00:12:15] It was the best introduction to human being could ever want in a combat situation.
[00:12:18] And you looked at me and and you said that's one of your guys that just killed us an IED in place or I said yes sir.
[00:12:25] And you immediately said I need your guys over an Eastern Romadi and I said, we will go wherever you want us to go wherever there's bad guys and that was how the deployment kicked off.
[00:12:38] Eastern Romadi was a pretty pretty bad place.
[00:12:41] Yeah, and it was I think it felt good. I mean, I could see the looks on the people in the in the tactical operation center.
[00:12:50] The looks on their faces that we just killed an IED in place or that was right where in firecracker a few days prior an IED and killed several Marines and so often.
[00:13:02] The enemy just you know in Romadi would just disappear. They take their shots. They do their thing and then they disappear.
[00:13:07] And that was really one of the most frustrating things. You didn't many times you just didn't have an enemy to fire back at.
[00:13:15] Yeah.
[00:13:16] Before we get into all that.
[00:13:19] Let's let's let's go back because you know we all everyone wants to know about you who you are.
[00:13:25] And I want to start off actually by reading a little chunk of of your book to kind of give a little background to everybody.
[00:13:31] And so the book is called the right of our lives. It just came out I think in February.
[00:13:35] So I'm I'm going to read this chunk right here.
[00:13:40] My dad Paul Xavier Gronsky senior was raised by his mother a Polish immigrant.
[00:13:46] My grandmother never learned to speak English well. She owned a small grocery store selling primarily candy and cigarettes.
[00:13:53] My paternal grandfather of also a Polish immigrant died in an accident in the coal mines near Screm.
[00:14:00] When my grandmother was five months pregnant with my dad.
[00:14:02] The son of a single parent. My father was forced to quit school after the seventh grade.
[00:14:08] So he could work and help support the family.
[00:14:12] My dad served overseas during World War II in the US Army Air Corps.
[00:14:17] Dad opened a garage in 1954 doing minor car repairs and selling use tires.
[00:14:23] Soon he bought cars to fix up and sell and so began his venture into the used car business.
[00:14:29] His family and his business were growing.
[00:14:33] But dad and my entire family faced a devastating setback in 1956 with my mother passed away when I was very young.
[00:14:43] That became a single parent with seven children to raise and a business to run.
[00:14:49] It was a severe blow.
[00:14:51] But dad fought through it.
[00:14:53] By outward measures my father was unimpressive standing five feet six inches tall.
[00:14:56] Dad weighed about 135 pounds.
[00:15:00] But my dad was a grinder.
[00:15:02] And he had the blood of an entrepreneur.
[00:15:05] Through sheer hard work and desire he raised his children while building an enterprise that included a garage.
[00:15:11] Used car sales, a towing service, a boat sales and service business and a bike shop.
[00:15:17] Known as Paul Gronsky enterprises.
[00:15:21] Dad's business became a landmark in Northeastern Pennsylvania.
[00:15:24] Paul X Gronsky senior a man with only a seventh grade education became a pillar of the community and a leader in his church.
[00:15:35] So that's the environment you grew up in.
[00:15:38] Yeah, do you remember your mom?
[00:15:41] She died three days after I was born.
[00:15:45] And you were number seven, right?
[00:15:47] Right.
[00:15:52] What's your dad doing in the Army Air Corps?
[00:15:55] Well, he had a very basic job. He was a cook.
[00:15:59] He worked in restaurants in the 20s and 30s.
[00:16:04] And he became a cook and I think his favorite war story was a time that he prepared a meal for Dwight Eisenhower in the mess hall.
[00:16:12] That's a pretty memorable story.
[00:16:14] Right. And what was it growing up? I mean, obviously, you got no mom at home.
[00:16:19] I mean, look, I got four kids and I got my wife is a state home mom.
[00:16:24] Right.
[00:16:25] And I could barely control the chaos and may have been going on when they were little.
[00:16:29] That must have been complete insanity.
[00:16:32] Yeah, you know, it allowed us kids to kind of grow up with a lot of self discipline.
[00:16:39] I was lucky though. I had two older sisters. They became surrogate mothers to me.
[00:16:45] My sister Ruthie, my sister Anne. And then I had an aunt, my father's sister was also a surrogate mother.
[00:16:52] So although I lost one mother, I ended up having three.
[00:16:55] And I did feel a lot of love in the family.
[00:16:58] Was Ruthie that much or your two sisters? How much older were they?
[00:17:01] Yeah, they're both a little over ten years older than I am.
[00:17:05] So, you know, they were, you know, 10, 11, 12 years old at the time.
[00:17:11] Yeah. And that's like a 10 or 11 year olds when they have responsibility put on them.
[00:17:16] They can pick it up and they can do a lot exactly.
[00:17:20] And, you know, it's just like anything else. You're putting that situation and you just got a dig deep and you got a figure it out and you got a drive on.
[00:17:28] And that's, and again, this was back in late 50s.
[00:17:31] And I guess it was a little bit more of a osteo life back then and people just were able to stand up this challenge as like that.
[00:17:40] How big was your house?
[00:17:43] The house I grew up in.
[00:17:46] The best I could recall my mother passed away.
[00:17:50] They were living in a single family dwelling.
[00:17:53] And then again, I just know this is I was getting old enough to remember things.
[00:17:57] We were actually living in a house with my grandmother.
[00:18:01] So my grandmother was in one room.
[00:18:04] My anon Uncle bur up stairs.
[00:18:06] They kind of had the second floor to house and then everybody else was spread out in bedrooms.
[00:18:10] I mean, I remember my brother Jimmy sleeping with my father in bed.
[00:18:15] I mean, they just slept together.
[00:18:17] That's how it was.
[00:18:18] I remember sleeping in bed with two other brothers.
[00:18:21] I mean, that's just the way it was back then.
[00:18:22] Yeah, if you couldn't come up with a good answer for how big your house was.
[00:18:27] I was going to say, all right, how many kids slept in your bed with you?
[00:18:30] No, I wasn't alone.
[00:18:32] You're not the seven family, seven kid family with no mom and not having to have a share some bed space.
[00:18:37] Exactly. That's that's the way it was.
[00:18:39] And then not going to school and everything.
[00:18:42] I mean, what was what was what kind of school did you go to?
[00:18:45] Yeah, I went to a public school when I was in first grade and then I, I'm a Catholic.
[00:18:49] So I was put into a Catholic school for second grade. So I could receive first holy communion.
[00:18:57] But I would have to go through extra classes like I would have a five as a public school.
[00:19:01] And then I went back to public school again and third grade and continued my education in public school.
[00:19:07] Your dad's an efficiency expert.
[00:19:09] I guess he is.
[00:19:11] What, what, what, what were your interests in school?
[00:19:13] Well, as I, as I got older, my main interest was football.
[00:19:19] I just really loved playing football. I loved everything about it.
[00:19:24] I wasn't that great of an athlete.
[00:19:26] I ended up starting when I was a senior.
[00:19:29] Finally, when I was a senior, I got, I got the, the start on the football team.
[00:19:33] And I was an offensive guard at 165 pounds.
[00:19:37] How big, how big was your school? Was it a big school?
[00:19:40] Did you go to high school in Scranton?
[00:19:41] I was in outside of Scranton. It was a more emerged school district tailor and
[00:19:47] Moose of Pennsylvania merged together.
[00:19:49] Name the school was Riverside. I think we graduated around 100 kids.
[00:19:53] How big were the games? How many people showed up?
[00:19:56] I mean, the stadium was packed.
[00:19:58] And, you know, northeast of Pennsylvania football is king.
[00:20:02] Even today, there's very little soccer and a lot of football.
[00:20:05] Although soccer is getting bigger.
[00:20:06] And, you know, our school had, I think, three sports.
[00:20:11] I mean, they had football, basketball, baseball.
[00:20:14] And I think there was golf.
[00:20:16] They didn't even have track and field when I went to school there.
[00:20:19] In my senior year, we had intramural track and field,
[00:20:23] but, you know, never competing against other schools.
[00:20:26] Now they finally do. But no swim team.
[00:20:28] There weren't that many opportunities for sports in the school that I graduated from at that time.
[00:20:32] What, anything else you were interested in? And did you have to work?
[00:20:36] Oh, my God. I mean, you know, it was kind of like a family farm where, you know,
[00:20:42] I mean, all my brothers and sisters and I all worked in the garage.
[00:20:46] And I remember even when I was a young kid in grade school,
[00:20:49] I would be in the garage sweep and floors.
[00:20:51] I would be studying tires. You know, at that time you put stud and snow studs and snow tires.
[00:20:56] Then when I was 16, I began driving to tow truck.
[00:20:59] And that was pretty cool. You know, to go out tow cars,
[00:21:03] although in the winter, man, you know, winter in North Houston, Pennsylvania.
[00:21:08] Every winter we would get about, you know, maybe three or four weeks,
[00:21:12] where it was like, you know, much below freezing.
[00:21:16] So you had to be out there towing cars, jumping cars, you know,
[00:21:20] cables and all this, you know, changing flat tires and the freezing snow.
[00:21:25] It was pretty hard work.
[00:21:26] But so I guess I got used to using my hands and doing hard work at an early age.
[00:21:32] At what point did you start viewing the military as an option?
[00:21:36] Well, you know, my dad always, really, he was very proud of the fact that he had an opportunity to serve.
[00:21:43] And he always encouraged me to serve.
[00:21:46] And when I graduated from high school, I went to a college in the local area,
[00:21:51] university of Scranton, the head of an ROTC program there.
[00:21:53] My dad wanted me to join to ROTC, but believe it or not,
[00:21:58] even though I read a lot of books about World War II,
[00:22:02] when I was very patriotic, I was brought up that way.
[00:22:05] For some reason, I just didn't want to have anything to do with the ROTC.
[00:22:09] And so the first two years go by, no ROTC,
[00:22:13] even though my dad was encouraging me to join.
[00:22:16] And when I was a sophomore, I get the letter in the mail from the ROTC program,
[00:22:21] saying, hey, this summer between your sophomore and junior year,
[00:22:25] you go to the space of camp at Fort Knox.
[00:22:28] And decide, you know, if you like to arm me,
[00:22:32] and if you do, then you get signed a contract and joined the ROTC.
[00:22:35] So I go to Fort Knox, Kentucky, between my sophomore and junior year.
[00:22:39] Because really, I just kind of wanted to do something different.
[00:22:42] I guess I was tired of working in the family business.
[00:22:45] So I forget how many weeks it was.
[00:22:47] It might have been six weeks or eight weeks.
[00:22:48] And man, I just loved it.
[00:22:51] I mean, there's a lot of camaraderie even there.
[00:22:55] I mean, the drill sergeants, I still remember my drill sergeant's name,
[00:22:58] their sergeant, Ogden. He was a short, watery guy,
[00:23:03] Vietnam vet. And, you know,
[00:23:06] profanity was all in.
[00:23:08] I mean, you know, the Jodi calls, they could sing whatever they put out there,
[00:23:13] we sang and it was pretty profane.
[00:23:15] And I just loved it. I just loved the physical part of it.
[00:23:21] I loved, you know, I'm being on the rifle range, you know, the tactical part of it.
[00:23:25] So I was all in, you know, when I left Fort Knox, Kentucky,
[00:23:29] I signed the ROTC contract and, you know, I was just so thrilled to be part of that.
[00:23:35] Yeah, so, so then you finished college.
[00:23:38] And so what year is it?
[00:23:40] Yeah, I graduate from high school in 74, graduate from college in 78.
[00:23:46] And then I went on active duty.
[00:23:49] But the thing is, a lot of people don't know this,
[00:23:52] and I don't admit it to a lot of people, but it's kind of an interesting story.
[00:23:56] I was commissioned as a matter of, you know, you're about to admit this to about to know,
[00:24:00] I know that, but, you know, I'm still proud of my service,
[00:24:05] but I was a medical service core officer.
[00:24:06] And the reason I was a medical service core officer is the eyesight in my left eye
[00:24:12] is right now it's about 2600.
[00:24:15] At that time, it was 2400 non-correctable.
[00:24:18] I had a lazy eye when I was a kid, it was never corrected.
[00:24:22] And once you go so long with that, there's no way to correct that eyesight.
[00:24:26] So because my eyesight in my left eye was so poor,
[00:24:29] I couldn't become an infantryman like I wanted to, because most of my buddies
[00:24:32] were going infantry or armor, field artillery, combat arms.
[00:24:37] I was in the commandos at the University of Scranton, which was kind of a kind of a
[00:24:41] range or oriented group, proud heritage at the University of Scranton, commandos.
[00:24:46] Yeah.
[00:24:47] And so what is a medical service officer do?
[00:24:51] You're in administrative officer, so at Fort Benning, Georgia, where I was first assigned,
[00:24:55] I commanded medical platoon in an armor, in an armor battalion.
[00:25:02] So I wasn't a doctor or anything like that, but I was kind of like the administrative officer
[00:25:10] who would lead the medics, provide them the leadership that they needed.
[00:25:15] There's usually a physician's assistant assigned your platoon as well.
[00:25:19] But that sort of medical service officer essentially does.
[00:25:22] They could be a platoon leader in an ambulance platoon, you know, as a lieutenant or a platoon leader in a medical
[00:25:29] platoon supporting an infantry battalion or armor battalion, that's sort of a medical service
[00:25:33] officer does. So I did that for four years and then, you know, I was assigned up for
[00:25:39] bending that I went up the Fort Lewis Washington.
[00:25:42] And after four years, I left the active duty, mainly because, you know, as a medical service
[00:25:47] corps officer would be quite honest with you, it was just something that didn't really interest me that much.
[00:25:53] And I figured, okay, I did my four years, and I'm going to get out and then I had a decision to make
[00:25:59] whether to stay into coma Washington and make a life for myself there, move back to Northeastern Pennsylvania.
[00:26:05] Well, we ended up doing this moving back to Northeastern Pennsylvania.
[00:26:08] I got to pick up a book here for a second to read through that kind of decision making process because
[00:26:13] well, I'll just go to the book. You say here, after serving it for Lewis for about two years,
[00:26:19] I left active duty in the army in the fall of 1982. We stated to coma Washington,
[00:26:23] where I worked as an alcoholism counselor and birdie worked at that's your wife.
[00:26:28] Worked as a nurse.
[00:26:31] We enjoyed living in the Northwest, but we decided to move to music for a variety of reasons.
[00:26:35] First, my dad was getting older. I want to spend time with him.
[00:26:37] I also wanted to raise my family near my brothers, sisters and friends back in Pennsylvania.
[00:26:47] And when you say at the humble kitchen table, my plans are hatched and life important life decisions are made.
[00:26:55] Homes are mortgaged in insurance policies are purchased and weddings are planned.
[00:26:59] The kitchen table is remarkable. In the winter of 1982, 83,
[00:27:02] it was at our kitchen table where two important decisions were made.
[00:27:08] The first decision was to leave to coma Washington in the Great Northwest and relocate to my hometown of Moosec, Pennsylvania.
[00:27:14] The second decision was a bit more adventurous.
[00:27:17] We decided to make the trip by bicycle.
[00:27:20] The trip would be self-supported, meaning we would carry our belongings on our bicycles in packs known as Paniers.
[00:27:26] If I say that right, yes, known as Paniers, we would keep these belongings sparse to save weight only one spoon each.
[00:27:33] No forks, a small pot to cook and only one bowl. The pot would serve as the other bowl.
[00:27:38] I drilled holes into the handles of our toothbrushes, ounces mattered.
[00:27:42] We would carry our home with us, a two person backpacking tent had two sleeping bags that could zip together.
[00:27:48] Our most precious cargo would be our baby who at the time of our decision was only about nine months old.
[00:27:57] There was nothing we could do about controlling the weight of this growing boy we would adjust elsewhere.
[00:28:03] So you make this decision to that you're going to bike across the country.
[00:28:10] Did you had you done any long distance biking before this?
[00:28:12] The farther I went before that would be a hundred miles in a ride of century.
[00:28:19] Did birdie go with you?
[00:28:21] Not on a ride of that duration.
[00:28:24] So you did a little maneuver to get her to say yes to this?
[00:28:29] My wife is from Austria.
[00:28:31] When I was at Fort Benning, she had spent her most of her life in Austria until she was in early 20s.
[00:28:37] And then I met her when I was stationed in Fort Benning. She was staying with her and an uncle in Columbus, Georgia.
[00:28:43] So we had only been married a little less than three years when we made this bicycle trip.
[00:28:48] And being that she was Austrian and then probably understand the vastness of our country. She agreed to it.
[00:28:56] She thought it was a four day trip, not a three month trip.
[00:28:59] Something like that.
[00:29:00] And really this book is a great kind of recollection. Did you take notes during this?
[00:29:08] Actually, I kept the journal.
[00:29:10] I was going to say, because you got some really good details in there that bring a lot of life to the story.
[00:29:15] And I was thinking of myself, there's no, if you have a memory like this, the smartest man that's ever lived.
[00:29:19] Not my memory was the journal.
[00:29:21] So you got a bunch of great stories.
[00:29:23] And really, you know, the the subtitle of the book is lessons on life, leadership and love.
[00:29:30] And you've got you tell the story and you also work in a bunch of, you know, lessons that you're learning along the way.
[00:29:37] You've got some stories in here that are funny. Some of them are not so funny. You got this situation here.
[00:29:42] And I'm fat, obviously I'm fast forward and through the book. I'm skipping around. But at this point you would, you would.
[00:29:48] You would talk to a farmer to see if you could stay the nightness field, which was, which is the other weird thing about this book in modern day in the year 2020.
[00:29:58] A lot of the things that you're doing in this book might not be quite as acceptable in modern times because you're going to random people and say, can we stay in your yard?
[00:30:07] Can we stay into back of your house or whatever? So this is one of those situations you see a farmer hey can we set up in your field and and the cool thing was and you point this out a lot is people are a lot of people were, hey yeah no problem, you don't come on in.
[00:30:20] We'll make, we're making dinner. You want some hot dogs, whatever. So that was neat. But at this time you would set up in this field.
[00:30:27] It's nice nice open field. There's dry grass everywhere tall dry grass and you sleep the night get some good sleep you wake up in the morning and here we're going to the book.
[00:30:38] The morning sun brought the promise of another good day of cycling the camp stove proved more than cooperative for cooking oatmeal and boiling water for hot coffee.
[00:30:45] Then it did for preparing dinner the night before I looked to the beginning of a great day until I got clumsy just as our pot of water reached a boil for our second cup of coffee.
[00:30:55] My left foot kicked over the camp stove.
[00:30:58] This sun drenched carefree morning immediately turned chaotic white gas began to run out of the toppled stove.
[00:31:04] The flame from the burner wasting no time setting the dry grass ablaze the wind howled from the west and famed the flames expanding the fire the flame shot up to about eight feet in the air and cinched my eyebrows everything seemed to move in slow motion.
[00:31:18] I had the sense that my life flash before my eyes then we flung into action birdie right at the stove and I put my fire fighting skills to the test my only chance was to create a fire break by stamping down the tall grass and that's exactly what I did.
[00:31:33] It worked the fire fizzled out after burning only a few square yards in the field. It was a frantic way to begin our morning.
[00:31:40] There was no fire or smoke damage to the art tent sleeping bags bicycles or to Stephen's trailer.
[00:31:45] That's your now I think when you left you was 18 months 15 months old.
[00:31:51] Stephen did not recognize the seriousness of the situation.
[00:31:55] We had a hard time getting him to stop laughing at our antics.
[00:32:00] So this is the kind of things that you talk about in this book.
[00:32:04] Some of the lessons that you learn, you know, another section here.
[00:32:08] You're just talking about what you're learning. It says throughout our cross country bike journey. We were faced with countless decisions about which way to go and which path to take.
[00:32:20] What I learned was that the path we decided upon was always the right one was not so much about which path we chose, but how we chose to negotiate it. It was all about attitude.
[00:32:33] So those are some of the lessons that you learned on this trip.
[00:32:39] And the books really just kind of filled with a bunch of, you know, funny stories, good stories, lessons learned.
[00:32:48] And people definitely get this book so that you can kind of kind of get that background.
[00:32:56] But eventually you you make it across country.
[00:33:00] You make it back to music PA.
[00:33:04] And there's all these things that happen on the way. You kind of become a minor celebrity in the biking world for sure.
[00:33:13] Maybe in the country, but in music PA it's like you're a town hero, right?
[00:33:18] Or maybe it's Steven your son is the ultimate town hero because he's the poor kid that had to, you know, survive with his crazy parents who bike across the states with him in a trailer.
[00:33:31] Well, I think the real hero is my wife, Bertie. I'm indeed, indeed.
[00:33:35] For her to make, first of all, like you said, agreed to make the trip and then actually make the trip never once won. Never once said, hey, why don't we, you know, pack it in and take a grey home bus home.
[00:33:45] I mean, I think she's the unsung hero for sure. What did you guys average?
[00:33:51] You know, 60 miles, 70 miles, 80 miles, you know, it all depended. We'd get up in the morning. You know, I talk about setting goals and intermediate goals or all the mid goal was northeers depends on the way.
[00:34:04] But we'd get up in the morning and look at a map.
[00:34:06] The side, what time we wanted to make it to that day based on terrain and other factors and then we would set off for it. And usually was between 60 to 80 miles.
[00:34:18] So when you get back now, you're out of the army and you know you're going into what's the business now morphed into?
[00:34:26] Well, the business was was very big.
[00:34:28] They were probably about, I'd say, about 40 employees working there at the time. And again, it was everything that you had already mentioned, you know, garage use cars,
[00:34:39] Towing service, a very large boat sales and service business and a bicycle shop.
[00:34:47] Call of that. You know, could you believe all that stuff and it took up about a block in the town of movies?
[00:34:52] Where are they using boats? Oh, there's plenty of lakes and Pennsylvania. Fishing is very popular there in water skiing as well.
[00:35:02] So you, but you stay in the reserves.
[00:35:05] No, actually, well, I did. But when I get back to Pennsylvania, I didn't even know what the, I ended up joining a national guard. But when I got there, I had no plan to continue my military service.
[00:35:17] Okay, so I got that wrong. You didn't stay in the reserves. You would actually left active duty complete.
[00:35:23] When I left active duty in Washington, I got in a reserve unit up there.
[00:35:27] And, and then I moved back to Pennsylvania with no plan to continue my military service.
[00:35:33] But somebody said to me, after about nine months being back, they said, hey, why don't you go down to the armory in Scranton and talk to guys down there about joining a national guard. I had no idea what the national guard was.
[00:35:44] I certainly did. Explain the difference between the reserves and the national guard. I think everyone knows what active duty is active duty is what you think of when you think of the military.
[00:35:52] You're in the military. You're in the army. You're in the Navy. You're in the air force. You're in the Marine Corps. You're in the Coast Guard. You're in one of those. That's what you do every day. That's the deal.
[00:36:01] Reserves and national guard. Explain those a little bit.
[00:36:05] Army reserve is you have a federal mission. I mean, your main mission would be to get deployed to conduct operations overseas.
[00:36:12] In the national guard, you have that same federal mission. But then you also have a state mission. So, in the national guard, generally during peace time or study state is under the the command and control of the governor of the state.
[00:36:25] So, that's the main difference. The reserves are not under the command and control of the governor in the national guard. The national guard, the units are.
[00:36:33] And it's usually the national guard that gets called up when hurricane hits when there's bad weather when something like that happens. Even to some kind of civil unrest.
[00:36:42] Yes. It's generally the national guard because they are controlled by the state's governors.
[00:36:47] That's exactly right. The governor does not have any authority to call up reserve units, but they do have authority to call up national guard units.
[00:36:53] Although there's some talk about changing that, and I'm not sure where we are with that right now with the laws, but generally the national guard is under the command and control of the governor.
[00:37:03] And so, so that life is similar to the reserves, I assume, and I remember this since I was a little kid.
[00:37:11] I would hear on the new or hear the advertisement they'd say, one weekend a month, two weeks in the summer.
[00:37:16] Yes.
[00:37:17] Is that similar?
[00:37:17] That that was and it was it was that way for the most part up until 911 and then after 911 everything changed with the national guard.
[00:37:27] How about the first go for any impact on the first go for not a lot not a lot primarily because
[00:37:35] It was was a lot of reserves were called up. I don't know if any national guard units were called up for to go for there may have been if there was there wasn't a lot.
[00:37:44] Probably primarily, just to go units in the guard if they were called up at all.
[00:37:50] And again, it was obviously very quick. I mean, you know, 100 hours, you know, you know, the buildup certainly was longer, but you know, 100 hour war there.
[00:38:00] So it wasn't very long.
[00:38:02] And so you're doing your one weekend a month and you're doing two weeks in the summer time.
[00:38:09] And other than that, you're living your life, you're building the business,
[00:38:12] Yes, you're selling boats and bicycles cars and all that.
[00:38:17] Toast stuff.
[00:38:18] And you're raising your kids, how many kids?
[00:38:21] Well, I my second son Timothy was born in 1984.
[00:38:27] So yeah, I had Stephen and Timothy and that's the two children that we have.
[00:38:32] And this whole time you're getting advanced in REC.
[00:38:36] Right. And this is something that we would always, hmm, what's a nice way of putting this. So when the seal teams, there's reserve seals.
[00:38:47] And the, but there's not many of them. There's more now. Okay, let me let me refraz this when I was younger in the seal teams.
[00:38:54] There was not a lot of reserve seals.
[00:38:57] No one really even knew about it. And most guys just frankly stayed in the seal teams.
[00:39:01] And if they got out, they got out. They were done. Right. You know, they got out. And so there wasn't a lot of reserves. So guys that were in the reserves would make rank really fast.
[00:39:12] Like way faster than a normal seal, at least it seemed that way. And at least we held that grudge against them.
[00:39:19] So if someone showed up for their weekend drill and they were a high ranking guy, you're a reserve. Is you know what you're talking about.
[00:39:24] But that's what's happening while you're in the reserves, or the National Guard, even though you're only working one week in a month. You're still advancing in REC.
[00:39:35] Yeah, but it's different. A National Guard rank is much slower. Okay, much slower.
[00:39:41] Just the way it is. I never knew it was that way in the reserve seals that they made rank quicker.
[00:39:46] Yeah, and I don't know if it's like that anymore. And I don't even know if it's just the way that I was raised by the five of the guys that would look at the reserve, and say that guy was the only made rank.
[00:39:58] Because he's in the reserves otherwise he's too much of an idiot. You know, it might have just been some prejudice against the reserves that was instilled with me by the active duty guys.
[00:40:07] Yeah, but yeah, I guess my point is for people that don't understand the National Guard reserves is that you're still advancing in your career.
[00:40:17] Oh, you are. Yeah, and you know, you have your civilian responsibility, but you also have your military responsibility. So all of the things that go along with maintaining military standards still exist, even though you're drilling, you know, in theory, one week in a month and two week annual training
[00:40:35] at some other time near usually in the summer, but you've in terms of physical fitness standards, you've got to maintain those physical fitness standards on your own.
[00:40:45] Because you know, you have US Army on your uniform. And that was very important. One thing I did want to back up on a little bit though, Jocco is is, you know, when I came back when I did make that decision to join the National Guard, because the guys there seem like people I wanted to work with.
[00:41:02] And remember, I was a medical service corps officer when I left active duty. I got branch transferred to become an infantry officer when I joined the National Guard. And this was about 1984, 85 time frame.
[00:41:17] And really, I became an infantry infantry officer without having to go through any additional training. It was essentially at that time. And I don't know if it had happened today or not. But again, we're talking about 40 years ago almost.
[00:41:33] You know, it was basically some paperwork that was adjusted to branch qualifying me as an infantry officer. And then I took command of an infantry company.
[00:41:45] Yeah, in West Pitz, in Pennsylvania. And I commanded that company for about four years and just due to a lot of good teammates there and good soldiers there. The company really performed very well so well.
[00:41:58] And we were given the honor to go to the National Training Center at Fort Ouro and California as an opposing force company, opt for company, which was a big deal for us. I mean, that the guys were psyched back then. I think this happened in 86 or so, memory serves me correctly. That was a big deal for us.
[00:42:22] Yeah, and that's that's actually an awesome thing. So opt for just to explain people that are civilian, supposing force. That means you're going to be the role players that are going to be pretending to be the bad guys.
[00:42:32] And I my seals when I was the training commander out on the west coast, I had a pack of guys and that's what they did. They not only taught, but then they were opt for as well. And the thing that the thing that is very important about it. There's multiple things that are very important about it. Number one.
[00:42:47] The seals that we put through training were never going to face a tougher enemy than the other seals that we're playing opt for. Never. There would never be there's never going to be a tougher enemy ever.
[00:42:59] And number two, when you're on opt for you learn how to think like the bad guys, you learn what it looks like you learn, how to set things up. And so then you can counter those tactics. So it's a it's a very important.
[00:43:15] It's a very important learning process. So for you guys and you probably went out there for a pretty big chunk of time.
[00:43:21] Yeah, we were out there. I think it was at least three weeks. You know, a normal annual training is is two weeks, but we were out there for an extended period of time.
[00:43:30] Did they send you to any schools or anything when you became an infantry officer?
[00:43:34] Me. Yeah. Well, that's the the next story is when I left command of that company after about four years.
[00:43:40] I just knew I had to do something to gain more credibility.
[00:43:46] And so I sought out and thankfully I was able to go to the infantry officer at Vanskors the resident course at Fort Benning for six months, which was great. And then I while I was there, I fought to get in the Ranger School.
[00:44:01] And so I started Ranger School the day my class graduated the infantry officer at Vanskors.
[00:44:07] So I didn't go to the graduation. We call it IOSC at that time infantry officer Vanskors.
[00:44:13] So the day my class graduated was my first day setting foot in the Ranger School at Harmony Church.
[00:44:20] And it was just something I had wanted to do for a very long time because a lot of my classmates back at the University of Scranton went to Ranger School.
[00:44:29] Just something I really had my heart set on just like you wanted to go through to seal training.
[00:44:33] And it was a very defining period of my life to go through Ranger School.
[00:44:39] How old were you in New Winter Ranger School?
[00:44:41] Yeah, I started when I was 33 and hadn't my birthday there.
[00:44:45] So I graduated when I was 34 years old. So I was one of the older guys graduating from Ranger School.
[00:44:51] That's old.
[00:44:53] For Ranger School that's that's all.
[00:44:55] There's been older guys graduate.
[00:44:57] Really?
[00:44:57] Oh yeah, I think there's I heard stories about a sergeant major who graduated when he was 45 years old.
[00:45:04] I salute that guy.
[00:45:05] Yeah, but I tell you it was it was an ask kicker for me, you know, and, and, but I was, you know, just didn't want to quit and just kept with it and thank God.
[00:45:16] I made it through.
[00:45:18] So were you a captain at that point?
[00:45:19] I was a captain.
[00:45:20] Yeah, because I was a captain when I left active duty.
[00:45:22] And so you're still a captain.
[00:45:23] You were still a captain for a long time.
[00:45:27] This is what you're talking about the reserves.
[00:45:29] Exactly.
[00:45:31] So you're a captain.
[00:45:33] But you go to Ranger School.
[00:45:35] You go to the infantry officers course.
[00:45:37] So now you're starting to feel like like an infantryman.
[00:45:40] Like I've got like I've got the requisite training that that is necessary for one to perform their job.
[00:45:47] The way you should perform your job.
[00:45:48] And obviously it was, was your dad still running the business?
[00:45:54] Yes.
[00:45:55] And so he took, he was okay with you being gone for, yes, ten months.
[00:46:00] Yes.
[00:46:01] And that's about how long I was going.
[00:46:03] Did he, did he, did he ride you about it?
[00:46:06] Oh, he was stoked on it.
[00:46:08] Very proud.
[00:46:09] Yeah.
[00:46:10] Because I could also see a little bit of, you go play army.
[00:46:13] I'll be back here working.
[00:46:14] No, no.
[00:46:15] He was very proud.
[00:46:16] And that kind of attitude at all.
[00:46:18] And yeah, that's, yeah, you said he was in the army air corps.
[00:46:21] Yeah.
[00:46:22] What, so what year did you graduate from Ranger School?
[00:46:25] 1991.
[00:46:27] So I went, I went to the advanced course, the infantry officer,
[00:46:32] Vance course I started in August of 1990.
[00:46:37] And we graduated in February.
[00:46:40] I think it was February 2nd.
[00:46:42] And that's the day I started,
[00:46:43] Ranger School February 2nd, 1991.
[00:46:47] So that's the goal for happened while you were at the infantry course.
[00:46:53] Right.
[00:46:54] What were you thinking about that?
[00:46:56] Was it just kind of, no, no, I mean, very interested, obviously,
[00:47:00] and everything that was going on.
[00:47:02] But, you know, didn't, you know, didn't have to play a role in that.
[00:47:07] Did that drive you crazy?
[00:47:09] Yeah, I mean, absolutely.
[00:47:10] And, you know, when, when you're in the army, you want to do your job because that's what we train for.
[00:47:16] So yeah, absolutely.
[00:47:18] The goal for goes over really quick.
[00:47:21] Do you remember, so I remember, so I was, I graduated boot camp.
[00:47:25] I went to boot camp in September, September 13th, 1990.
[00:47:29] Okay.
[00:47:30] So the war kicked off after that.
[00:47:32] But I remember I'm watching CNN with a bunch of other Navy guys.
[00:47:34] And the report, CNN was saying there's going to be 40,000 casualties in the first 48 hours.
[00:47:43] Right.
[00:47:44] I remember that.
[00:47:45] And I remember thinking, oh, I'm going to, I'm going to get mine because, you know, I was, I mean,
[00:47:49] you might have thought you wanted to go to war when you were 33 years old.
[00:47:53] I was 19.
[00:47:56] And I was, you know, completely was was hoping to go to war.
[00:48:00] And yeah, so I remember watching that thinking, oh, I'm definitely going to get my chance because there's 40,000 casualties.
[00:48:07] That means this thing's going to last a while and that means I'll be able to go.
[00:48:10] Oh, yeah.
[00:48:11] Which I know I know people, um, I know it's hard to understand that concept of wanting to go to war.
[00:48:18] But hey, you're young, you're dumb.
[00:48:21] And that's what you want to do. Like you said, you train for it. That's what you want to do.
[00:48:25] And the thing is, Jack, you know, your buddies are going.
[00:48:28] And you feel like, man, you know, my buddies are going. I want to be there with them.
[00:48:33] I think there's a lot of that. And you know, and when I say buddies, I mean, you're using that in a very loose term.
[00:48:41] But I mean, my fellow, you know, sailors are going. My fellow soldiers are going.
[00:48:45] Fellow Marines are going. So I want to be a part of it. You know, I think it's that type attitude.
[00:48:50] So that war, like you said, it's over $100. And now you're back to work.
[00:48:55] You're, you're, you're back.
[00:48:58] Hawking bicycles. Right.
[00:49:01] I mean, you got the experience. You must have been a hell of a salesman and sell them bicycles.
[00:49:05] We had a pretty successful. Stop for a time there. Yeah.
[00:49:10] Time goes by. You're still getting advanced and rank eventually. You make major.
[00:49:16] Where are you on September 11th?
[00:49:20] On September 11th.
[00:49:22] I am a colonel who had just successfully commanded a brigade for over three years,
[00:49:31] 55th brigade, which is a Pennsylvania National Guard Brigade.
[00:49:34] And in the sum, I, I left command in the summer of, I'm trying to remember here.
[00:49:42] No, I different.
[00:49:46] I spent a year in Lithuania into your 2000.
[00:49:49] So I come back from Lithuania in January, and that was at on National Guard duty.
[00:49:55] Yes, yeah, National Guard duty. I was spending a year in Lithuania because Lithuania is a state partner of the Pennsylvania National Guard.
[00:50:01] I get getting into that in a little bit, but to answer your question, I get back from Lithuania in January 2001.
[00:50:09] And then I take command of 55th brigade in July of 2001.
[00:50:15] So I was actually in command of 55th brigade at the time.
[00:50:20] And what happened is I took 2000 soldiers from the 55th brigade over to Europe in 2002 to do a forced protection mission there at the army bases in four different countries in Europe, Germany, Italy and Netherlands and Belgium.
[00:50:38] While the active duty troops are getting prepared to deploy.
[00:50:43] The deploy either to Afghanistan or as, as happened to Iraq.
[00:50:50] So I took 2000 soldiers over to Europe.
[00:50:53] I said summer 2002, we spent a little over six months over there doing forced pro.
[00:50:59] For me, that was an honor.
[00:51:01] I mean, I, I never thought I would have a chance to serve overseas to command soldiers overseas.
[00:51:09] So to me, that was a great honor.
[00:51:13] And, and did our mission as well as we could do it and the soldiers performed very well over there.
[00:51:19] And came back from that mission.
[00:51:24] And then after about a little over three years, almost four years, I left command of the 55th brigade.
[00:51:30] So that, that mission, the Lithuanian year trip that was one year.
[00:51:34] Yeah, yeah, what was that job?
[00:51:35] Okay, that job is, and let me explain the state partnership program real quick.
[00:51:40] Right after the fall of the Soviet Union, the US, European commander, which is a forced, our general he has to combat command, you come, they call it is the abbreviation.
[00:51:52] He wanted to develop an engagement strategy with former Soviet republics or worse-off-pack countries to just create better relations with these countries as they were leaving the Soviet Union's sphere of influence.
[00:52:09] And so he talked to the director of the Army National Guard or the Chief of the National Guard about getting National Guard states partnered with some of these countries.
[00:52:20] So I don't know how the decision was made, but Pennsylvania was partnered with Lithuania.
[00:52:26] And as part of that partnership, as Lithuania was trying to learn how does United States military operate?
[00:52:36] Because they wanted to pattern themselves after us.
[00:52:39] We had various kernels from the Pennsylvania National Guard, go over to Lithuania.
[00:52:43] Got it. I spent anywhere from a year to three years over there. So in 2000, I was tapped to go over there and it was just something I was really excited about.
[00:52:54] Because again, this is prior 9-11, if that man, I'm going to get a chance to serve as a kernel overseas.
[00:53:00] I mean, this is great, because who could have predicted 9-11? I mean, I couldn't predict 9-11 at that point.
[00:53:06] So I thought that was going to be my only shot to serve overseas as a commissioned officer. So I was very excited about it. Did you get to take your wife on that?
[00:53:16] No, it was on a company.
[00:53:18] Yeah, but my wife, I see that that is just how my wife bearing is. When I call her an unsung heroshy really is, I mean, she supported me through everything.
[00:53:27] We've been married, we're going to be married 40 years the September.
[00:53:30] So if she didn't leave me after that bicycle trip, you know, I guess I thought, y'all guys, she's never going to leave, but put it in the test early.
[00:53:38] And again, I come home one day and say, hey, Barity, you know, one of the generals from the Pennsylvania National Guard wants me to go over to Lithuania for a year.
[00:53:47] How do you feel about that? She said, John, you do whatever you think you need to do.
[00:53:52] That's her whole attitude.
[00:53:53] So you did that mission, then you come home and then September 11th happens and now you deploy again as a as a brigade commander.
[00:54:05] Yeah, with 2000 soldiers over there in in Europe and the thing I'm most proud of is the fact that if we had this planary problems, we handled it, you know, very quickly our soldiers performed well.
[00:54:21] Then in embarrass anybody did their job very professionally as they were conducting force pro at these at these bases because again after 90 11, you know, you know, what was going to happen with terrorist attacks at our installations over there.
[00:54:36] So very proud of the way the soldiers performed. We had group. I had three battalions task organized to my 2000 soldier brigade and leadership at all levels function very well right down to the soldier level and they perform one quick story. I had a I had a former Navy seal.
[00:54:55] I'm sorry of I guess even the Navy seal, but he caused problems.
[00:55:00] He really did another this guy leaves the seals he gets a job working for this pharmaceutical company because he had some type of degree that he got when he when he left the seals.
[00:55:10] He was making $250,000 a year with his pharmaceutical company Navy seal now he's a staff sergeant in my brigade working for peanuts whatever a staff sergeant made so he leaves a $250,000 a year job to perform over there as a staff sergeant. I mean just stories like that, what cards have happened all the time where they they leave these very very lucrative positions to get, you know, pay as a as a staff sergeant.
[00:55:40] Specialist, which is a knee for you know, I mean it's as is incredible the sacrifice. These these great Americans make yeah that's that's true service right there.
[00:55:51] So you come home from that deployment and now it's 2002 we got yeah we we.
[00:55:58] Yeah we got there in the summer of 2003 so we got there in the late summer of 2002 and we get back home after the first year 2003.
[00:56:12] And at this point what one of your sons is in the reserves or is the national guard my son Timothy was in the national guard okay.
[00:56:24] And so you're seeing September 11 unfold yeah at what point are you thinking that the the call might come to deploy to Iraq or Afghanistan for myself yeah yeah for yourself well our second brigade.
[00:56:41] And so we got got notice that they were going to be deploying over to to Iraq and I think they got the notice.
[00:56:55] They actually got mobilized in January 2005 so they got the notice about six months prior to that so we were either brigade commander yet or no no I was not I I had left 55 brigade after commanding there for three years a little over three years.
[00:57:09] And so I was selected to become a general officer so I was actually at our state headquarters in an 07 position waiting to get promoted when I heard the second brigade was going to be going over to Iraq now.
[00:57:23] Jack or this is the weird thing when I heard second brigade was going to get mobilizing over to Iraq something told me I was going to go with them and I don't know what it was I just believed I was going to go over there with that brigade and.
[00:57:38] And the way it happened is when they actually got mobilized and they we went that that brigade went to Camp Shelby for about five months to train a camp Shelby Mississippi and this was January January 2005.
[00:57:56] I get a call on a Friday from the division commander the 28th infantry division that said hey the current brigade commander went through the readiness processing there at Camp Shelby was like the first or second day on the ground there.
[00:58:11] And there was a medical issue no fault of his own very honorable man who wanted to go with this brigade but had a medical issue that was going to prevent him from going over.
[00:58:25] And so I think that's the reason why I'm going to make sure he couldn't go and so Sunday comes he gets to squallified and so my division commander called me back on Sunday and said hey John he didn't make a through could you be there on Wednesday.
[00:58:42] And so it's like absolutely was the division commander a friend of yours.
[00:58:46] No I mean we had a professional relationship I won't say was a friend. Did you had you told him that you were ready to rock and roll as I actually told him.
[00:58:56] Months prior to that that hey if anything and I don't even know what I was thinking but I said if anything happens where you need me to go with this brigade I just want you to keep me in mind.
[00:59:10] And he did and I was thankful for that just because it was an honor to be able to go over there and do that that job.
[00:59:16] Did they put your your general selection on hold? Yes, I was basically put on hold I'll tell you the truth and I'm not saying.
[00:59:25] Honestly if I had a choice and I truly meant this because I knew there was a chance I might not get promoted.
[00:59:32] Because I was taken on this mission because just away it is.
[00:59:35] But if I had a choose between the two serving and combat with with those soldiers and Marines or getting promoted to general serving and combat would be the thing.
[00:59:46] And luckily you found this out as soon as the work up kind of started as soon as the training started.
[00:59:52] Yeah, you went down there on so you missed two days right I mean yeah you missed nothing exactly I mean I was down there yeah within the first five six days of their training startup and kind of an interesting story I want to tell you the kind of links the the time we had in Europe with the time of me going to Camp Shelby to begin command in the brigade.
[01:00:16] When we first got to Europe in 2002 I had a decision to make as a brigade commander 2000 soldiers spread throughout four countries in Europe.
[01:00:27] And I made the decision that hey when you're off duty you could drink alcohol.
[01:00:32] I was going to tell these guys you're over here in Europe and you're not going to be able to go out and have a beer.
[01:00:36] And that's one thing I believe in is not not setting you know not not setting out a standard or a rule that you're probably not going to be able to enforce anyway and plus it doesn't make sense just because a guy puts on a military uniform doesn't make them stupid.
[01:00:53] You know what I mean and so these are adults so I said yeah you know you could drink over there but I said just going to let everybody know you get in trouble you're going to be disciplined.
[01:01:07] We had a guy who's there about two weeks gets drunk gets in a fight with a German civilian.
[01:01:10] Throw as this Germans civilian off a balcony the Germans civilian loses an eye so we court martial this guy and he ends up in the stock a manheim busted them down from an E6 to an E1 from a staff sergeant to a private.
[01:01:26] Then I had another decision to make do I discharge this guy from from the army. So I talked to the battalion commander and I said hey what do you think in the battalion commander obviously knew this guy better than I did.
[01:01:41] And he said you know he is a good soldier you know he needs alcoholism counseling etc etc but he said I believe he's worth retaining.
[01:01:50] So I listened to this battalion commander said so I retained them. Then on Christmas day this is about maybe four months later or something I don't know four five months later.
[01:02:01] Christmas day and by the way while I was over there with these two thousand soldiers I was on the road constantly just going doing circulation seeing how the soldiers are going.
[01:02:09] Christmas day I wake up and I say to my driver I say we're driving up the manheim today it's about an hour and a half north of where my headquarters was.
[01:02:20] So I want to see the sky in the stock aid it was Christmas day something just told me to go visit him.
[01:02:26] So I go up.
[01:02:27] Guard brings them out into the visitors area I was only visitor there that day and he was just blown away when he saw me he goes currently you know it's Christmas day you're here to see me I said listen I said.
[01:02:40] You you screwed up your pain your dues you're still one of my soldiers I said I wanted to come see how you're doing let you know that we're still thinking of you're still on ours.
[01:02:49] As somehow to family was doing all that I mean you felt like crappy in in that the tension facility.
[01:02:57] Fast forward I didn't think another thing about it left that was done there's my duty to do that I did it.
[01:03:03] And fast forward to the first day on the ground a camp shell b after I went down there to take command of that brigade walking through the.
[01:03:12] Barric's area and there's four soldiers standing outside of the barracks and one of them.
[01:03:19] Come sprinting over to me you know stands there to tension salute it's specialist and he for.
[01:03:25] Same guy and he goes you probably don't remember me goes but you came to see me in the stock aid on Christmas day.
[01:03:32] He goes I just wanted to tell you how much I appreciate that he goes I never forgot that and then he yells over to the three other soldiers that were standing outside of the barracks with them.
[01:03:42] Because a lot of guys didn't know who I was you know who's this new guy coming to take command of brigade heels over to those three soldiers he said this is Colonel Gransky we're in good hands with him.
[01:03:50] And and I'm sure you know coming from any for that mental lot if you know what I mean. Yeah and but it just shows that you just try to do the right thing for people you know and you don't just discard somebody just because they made a mistake and now this guy was going to the most violent place on the face of the earth to continue to serve our country.
[01:04:12] Did you guys know you were going to Ramadi we learned while we were at Shelby.
[01:04:17] We learned we're going to Ramadi and then we kept thinking man are they going to change their mind because you know we were getting you know we were getting all the classified report you know what was going on over there as we saw how violent was and by the way.
[01:04:33] Second brigade second infantry division was over there at the time that's who we did the really from place within those soldiers and Marines who worked for that brigade commander.
[01:04:42] Gary Patton who's a outstanding American he ended up retiring as a major general very proud of his leadership over there with that with that unit.
[01:04:53] But we saw how violent it was and with that man they're going to send a you know our brigade over there and they did and I actually talked to a retired three star who was the MNC I commander at the time.
[01:05:08] After he retired and I said sir I said.
[01:05:13] I just I have to ask you why why did this end of national guard brigade to this most violent place on earth.
[01:05:20] And he said well I was talking to the first army commander and he said you guys were ready.
[01:05:25] And he goes then I talked to my boss who was the MNF commander and he said he asked me my opinion he said sir we've been taking risk everywhere else over here I think we'll take some more risk and put.
[01:05:36] Second brigade 28th infantry division and Ramadi but those soldiers who were part of that brigade and the Marines who were task organized to us.
[01:05:45] That remarkable job just because of leadership at every level below me and just so proud of the work those guys did in Ramadi.
[01:05:55] How well did the work up prepare you the training cycle that you did and you guys went out to for her when as well right.
[01:06:01] We spent a month out of four to one as part of that train up you know.
[01:06:07] Counter and certainty doctrine wasn't even published at that time.
[01:06:13] Coind doctrine didn't exist until after we got back home after 2006 that's when it was published.
[01:06:20] So we were given the best training that the army was able to give us being with a new at that time.
[01:06:27] But certainly not as advanced as it as it became.
[01:06:32] So the army did the best they could do with with the training they gave us.
[01:06:37] And the what did you guys have for armor?
[01:06:41] I'll tell you when we got over there.
[01:06:46] We had what we called Hillbilly armor.
[01:06:50] It was basically armor that was welded on to humvies.
[01:06:54] It wasn't a armored humvies.
[01:06:58] And we had a fight to get the a armored humvies we needed in Ramadi because with that Hillbilly armor there was a slight gap in the door.
[01:07:08] I mean you could actually see space in between when the door closed and the rest of the vehicle and you know how the ID threat was over in Ramadi.
[01:07:17] We had over a thousand ID's used against us while we were there.
[01:07:20] And without the right protection, we were just going to take even more casualties than we did take.
[01:07:26] And by the way the brigade that was there before us took in the 80s and killed an action.
[01:07:33] We took 82 killed an action and about 260 who were wounded seriously enough who had to be evacuated back to the United States.
[01:07:40] That doesn't count the ones who were wounded who were able to stay there.
[01:07:43] And then the brigade after us who you worked with for a lot of your time there.
[01:07:49] Took about the same amount of casualties we took.
[01:07:52] You know, every brigade that was in Ramadi, every army brigade for three consecutive brigades were all taking into 80s in terms of KIA.
[01:08:01] So you need the protection.
[01:08:03] And we fought for the protection and we finally got the the up armored humvies that we needed to be able to better perform our mission.
[01:08:10] Did you guys deploy all at once and straight into Ramadi? Is that how it happened or how it happened or how it happened?
[01:08:20] I'll tell you.
[01:08:22] My brigade at Shelby.
[01:08:26] I had over 35 different states contributing soldiers to my brigade.
[01:08:31] I mean that's a me so you know you want to train with you want to go to war with the unit that you've been training with.
[01:08:36] But because at that time in 2005 a lot of national guard had been used at that time.
[01:08:45] They I had soldiers from 35 different states showing up at Camp Shelby.
[01:08:52] So now we can start training together as a brigade team.
[01:08:56] And the other interesting thing, there was not a direct support of Philar Turley battalion in the guard available to deploy with us.
[01:09:04] So we had to use a general support Philar Turley battalion. The difference.
[01:09:10] The fire support element. A fire support element is where the four observers are.
[01:09:15] Usually in a direct support.
[01:09:17] Philar Turley battalion. There's 135 fire supporters. The guys who call in the fire.
[01:09:23] In a G.S. General support artillery battalion.
[01:09:26] There's no F.S.E. because they use four observers from the direct support artillery battalions.
[01:09:34] We had to cobble together 135 soldier fire support element while we're on the ground.
[01:09:42] A camp Shelby and that took months to get everybody there.
[01:09:46] In groups of two's and groups of three's to put this fire support element together.
[01:09:50] The reason I say this is this is just to credit to these national guard soldiers who came together like they did and then did their jobs.
[01:10:03] That's why I'm telling that story. It's not a knock on anybody. It's not a knock on the army.
[01:10:08] It's a credit to these soldiers who were able to come together and then form themselves as a team to do the hard work that they had to do in the most violent place on the face of the earth for a year.
[01:10:23] Interesting. I'm thinking about a podcast that we actually a couple podcasts that we just did about the Boer war and the British went down there.
[01:10:30] And what's interesting is it was only a very small part that I mentioned and the reason I mentioned it on the podcast was because the T.A.
[01:10:41] Which is the territory of the army which is the reserves in England.
[01:10:45] There was a they gave several examples but one specific example where the guys that were reserved.
[01:10:52] So the guys that weren't professional soldiers in many cases were the first ones to say hey wait a second the way we're doing this doesn't make sense.
[01:11:01] So they had I would I guess they had their their minds were more open and and they were.
[01:11:09] They could adapt where they weren't so rigid and I thought I was I was thinking when you were saying oh they made a decision to send the.
[01:11:17] The you know the national guard there if I was the commander that maybe something that you wait and go look I need someone that's going to attack this problem maybe a little bit different so that's an.
[01:11:27] Interesting concept but also just knowing and you know I mentioned this at the beginning.
[01:11:33] The effort that your soldiers and Marines took to take care of us when we showed up.
[01:11:40] And literally saved our guys lives there was missions I mean there's a specific mission that layfab and who wrote these books with me.
[01:11:51] He was gonna go he was getting from a special operations group was going to do an operation and he was going to take some of his you know his seals and is Iraqi soldiers they were going to go and help them.
[01:12:03] And he brought it to you brought the plan to one of you know one of your majors out of Vermont I want to say yeah and I know exactly who that guy was yeah I do too and I mean he's just and he looked at life and said.
[01:12:19] If you go on the street you're going to get blown up and you know it life said life you know a seal team guy a special operations guy said thank you.
[01:12:27] And he listened and that that was our attitude we were so thankful and grateful that you know you all helped us so much when we got on the ground and just the the the other thing you know we just had.
[01:12:41] Complete respect and admiration as I said in the beginning because look we're looking at you get you know a lot of the a lot of you all were looking at us like oh these guys are highly trained.
[01:12:50] And we're looking back at you saying you've been in gun fights every day for the last 11 months yeah so I can't say enough to thank you and everybody from from that brigade that was there on the ground that welcome us that didn't give us any attitude that didn't give us any they just wanted to help and it was just it was an awesome thing to to be a part of and to see.
[01:13:13] And to see.
[01:13:18] So you guys know you're going into a nightmare.
[01:13:21] Yeah.
[01:13:22] When you got on the ground like what was the first thing that you said to yourself.
[01:13:27] This is real.
[01:13:30] That's funny.
[01:13:32] You know I had a personal security detachment which was a platoon out of the brass canash on guard and the platoon leader.
[01:13:41] Awesome leader Jock Smith is fantastic lieutenant.
[01:13:48] We were out and I was out a lot okay but always with the purpose.
[01:13:55] I could tell you a little bit background on that in a minute but we were out there shortly after we were there and and I we have many IED issues against.
[01:14:06] I did that or particularly patrol but I did that Nate's nobody was hurt it was relatively not significant and me and Jack look at each other and we go you know there's actually people trying to kill us.
[01:14:20] And it's kind of like yeah reality set in very quickly and it was like like there's people actually like trying to kill us.
[01:14:29] You know and I think that reality set in for everybody pretty quickly.
[01:14:34] How did you, what was your approach when you showed up?
[01:14:39] So by the time we got there in April of 06,
[01:14:44] you guys had really secured like all the main MSRs going
[01:14:49] into the city.
[01:14:51] What was your kind of larger operational approach
[01:14:55] when you showed up?
[01:14:56] Yeah.
[01:14:57] I'd say it was a couple of different phases.
[01:14:59] The first phase was really getting situational
[01:15:02] understanding of what was going on.
[01:15:05] And the second brigade, second infantry division,
[01:15:07] really helped us do that.
[01:15:10] Then the phase after that,
[01:15:12] I like to think of as getting the,
[01:15:17] was a leader engagement phase.
[01:15:20] We're really trying to get the shakes and the governor,
[01:15:23] probably remember the governor.
[01:15:26] Moom.
[01:15:27] Moom.
[01:15:28] To really support our effort there.
[01:15:31] We saw, we didn't see many e-moms there to be honest with you.
[01:15:34] It was mainly the shakes and the governor we were dealing with.
[01:15:37] And we made a lot of headway there.
[01:15:39] And then the phase after that,
[01:15:41] I like to call the murder and intimidation phase
[01:15:44] for then surgeons actually got the upper hand on murdering
[01:15:47] key shakes, which hurt our leader engagement,
[01:15:50] which had been successful.
[01:15:52] And then the last phase I like to call
[01:15:54] sudden in the conditions for the next brigade to come through.
[01:15:57] And that's where we were trying to do our best.
[01:16:00] To set up combat outpost in certain areas where we could then stay there.
[01:16:06] Now this is the thing you may not know about our brigade.
[01:16:10] Remember, we had from Ramadi to Habaniah.
[01:16:14] In May of 2006, I was visited by two very senior generals.
[01:16:21] And the question they asked,
[01:16:24] what you need to control Ramadi.
[01:16:26] And Ramadi was very chaotic at that time because of murder and intimidation.
[01:16:30] And a lack of us able to engage leaders very effectively because of the murder and
[01:16:35] intimidation of the shakes.
[01:16:37] And what I explained to them is you needed a brigade and
[01:16:41] Ramadi proper itself if you want to control it.
[01:16:44] A brigade in Habaniah and then another brigade up in Jazeera,
[01:16:48] which was north of the Euphrates River.
[01:16:51] And the one general put his head in his hand
[01:16:54] and just kind of like shook his head and he said to the two his senior.
[01:16:59] He said, sir, that's an entire division.
[01:17:02] And at that point in time, they were trying to downsize.
[01:17:06] And he didn't push back on me though.
[01:17:09] He basically just realized that.
[01:17:11] I'm going to do that.
[01:17:12] One thing that happened when we were leaving and the next brigade was coming in.
[01:17:18] Five five Easting, which was just east of Camp Currigator.
[01:17:24] That's where their area of operation ended.
[01:17:27] So they didn't have Habaniah.
[01:17:29] So the brigade after us came in with.
[01:17:33] They were able to put three additional battalions into Ramadi.
[01:17:38] Okay, we didn't.
[01:17:40] All right, so they were able instead of putting a battalion in Habaniah,
[01:17:43] they were able to put it in Ramadi.
[01:17:45] And then they came in with two additional battalions head quarters besides that.
[01:17:49] So they had from what I understand, they had three additional battalions head quarters,
[01:17:55] one full battalion plus another four companies.
[01:18:00] So one of the reasons thing started to change is because they were able to mass more troops in that area.
[01:18:13] And as a difference between fighting a large scale combat operation and fighting in uncertainty,
[01:18:19] in a large scale combat operation, you don't want to mass troops.
[01:18:22] You want to mass the effects of your combat power.
[01:18:25] You see, if you're fighting a near-peer or a peer, you don't want to mass troops.
[01:18:29] You want to mass the effects of combat power.
[01:18:32] When you're fighting an insurgency, that's where you want to mass troops.
[01:18:36] And I think what the coin doctrine came out with was was one counterinsurgent for every 20 civilians that are in that city.
[01:18:46] And Ramadi had a population of around 400,000.
[01:18:49] And we had nowhere near what the coin doctrine called for.
[01:18:53] So we were struggling with that.
[01:18:55] So I believe in the hamburger Hill principle of never ordering a patrol to go into an area.
[01:19:05] That we weren't prepared to put a combat outpost in and stay in.
[01:19:11] I saw it as stupid to send a patrol into an area for two or three hours just to do a friggin patrol and come right back out again.
[01:19:20] Because I could deal with losing a soldier or a marine if there was a purpose, a good purpose to lose that soldier or marine.
[01:19:31] I had to have a hard time explaining to a mother or a father why their marine or soldier got killed for just the sake of going in there for three hours and coming back out again.
[01:19:41] If it was to put a combat outpost in, I could accept that.
[01:19:46] You see what I'm saying?
[01:19:47] So when I say the hamburger Hill concept because you know hamburger Hill, take the hill and then leave.
[01:19:52] It's kind of like, why do you want to do that?
[01:19:54] And I was dead set against that.
[01:19:57] And I think that's well, well, once the one one showed up, they had enough people that we could go in, set up a combat outpost.
[01:20:05] And then what you're doing is patrolling to clear bad guys because you're there and it's a different game.
[01:20:13] You know, you mentioned the murder and intimidation of the shakes and this was all happening.
[01:20:19] I mean, I arrived in May.
[01:20:21] Yes, I arrived in May.
[01:20:23] And so this was kind of, was it still happening?
[01:20:28] I remember we're reading the Intel reports and from what I remember, there was like a 1, 48 hour period, a 1 very short period of time,
[01:20:38] where seven or eight senior shakes were murdered and the rest of them almost all of the rest of them.
[01:20:47] Well, a large portion of the rest of them left.
[01:20:50] This is what happened in probably around the September timeframe.
[01:20:56] And I'd be talking to the governor in the shakes about once a week.
[01:21:01] Starting in September, they started to see that a lot of what they were telling us, we were starting to change the way we conducted operations.
[01:21:09] I give you an example.
[01:21:10] When I first got there, we would send patrols into homes without Intel, just to search the homes.
[01:21:19] So how would you like it if you're in a house with your wife and two kids and all of a sudden this army patrol comes in and says,
[01:21:27] You know, just for the hell of it, we're going to start looking through the drawers in your bedroom dresser.
[01:21:33] And so the shakes were complaining about that.
[01:21:36] It's like, you know what?
[01:21:37] That makes sense to me.
[01:21:38] So I said to our guys, listen, we're not going to go into a search of a home unless there's targeted intelligence that gives us a reason to,
[01:21:46] because otherwise we're just making enemies of good people and turning neutrals to be helping the intelligence.
[01:21:52] You don't want to do that.
[01:21:54] So, you know, that was one example.
[01:21:56] There was another outpost that we had north of Kyrriganore up by a hospital that was up in that area, which I took down.
[01:22:04] And the main reason I took that down, because I didn't want to drive that route.
[01:22:09] You know, I didn't want to drive that route because you're getting blown up.
[01:22:12] Because we were, we were having our soldiers get killed driving up there.
[01:22:16] And it's like, you know what?
[01:22:17] This makes no sense.
[01:22:19] Take it down.
[01:22:20] The cool thing is, is the shakes have been asked for me to take that down.
[01:22:25] So when I took it down, I told the shakes the reason we took this down is because you wanted better access to the hospital.
[01:22:32] But out your surveillance, your Iraq, these civilians going through to check point.
[01:22:37] So they saw that as well.
[01:22:39] I listened to me. What was the outcome?
[01:22:42] The outcome is in the elections in December where in January 2005, two percent of the citizens are
[01:22:52] Ramadi voted in an election.
[01:22:54] In December 2005, 80 percent of the Iraqis vote in the election.
[01:23:01] The shakes were encouraging them to vote.
[01:23:04] And so we saw that as man we turned to a corner.
[01:23:07] The other thing is we were trying to recruit Iraqi police.
[01:23:12] Because we knew we had to get Iraqi police to agree to join and then to go through to training.
[01:23:21] So we would have recruiting events and we were getting two or three Iraqis to show up at the recruiting event in joint.
[01:23:29] Until January.
[01:23:32] January 3rd, we had this recruiting event at the glass factory.
[01:23:37] 200 Iraqis standing in line to join.
[01:23:43] That's only because of the shake encouragement.
[01:23:46] January 4th, we had about 500 Iraqis standing in front of the glass factory to join.
[01:23:54] Man, we were ecstatic.
[01:23:57] And just to give a little bit more detail, just to reemphasize what you said.
[01:24:02] These are 500 local citizens that are tribal tribesmen with tribal leaders are directing them.
[01:24:12] Hey, looks like the coalition looks like the Americans.
[01:24:16] They kind of were getting on board.
[01:24:18] Go down and join the police so we can get ready in search and send this city.
[01:24:24] The biggest mistake I made was I did it a third day in a row.
[01:24:29] And on January 5th, I think you know what happened to it.
[01:24:32] Suicide bomber detonated his vest in the middle of a thousand Iraqis who were there that day.
[01:24:40] I mean, we were ecstatic.
[01:24:41] We had a thousand Iraqi showing up the join when months before we had two or three.
[01:24:47] I mean, this was a turning point.
[01:24:50] So this suicide bomber detonates their vest.
[01:24:54] Kills at least 100 Iraqis citizens.
[01:24:58] Kills, my best friend, Mike McLaughlin, who was my leader in engagement officer.
[01:25:02] And Kills, Sergeant Can, who was a Marine dog handler.
[01:25:06] And wounds several other soldiers, but not, not, you know, seriously.
[01:25:12] And, but any wound is serious if you get wounded, I guess.
[01:25:17] And totally disrupted the whole thing.
[01:25:20] The thing I was proud of with that though is that Iraqis we already had inside the glass factory.
[01:25:25] We continued to process them.
[01:25:29] What I did the next day, and again, we were devastated by this.
[01:25:33] What I did the next day, I called all the leaders involved with that recruiting operation.
[01:25:37] Because that was a battalion plus operation, a pull this off.
[01:25:41] Got all the leaders in.
[01:25:43] I said, listen, we're going to do an after action review of lessons learned thing on this.
[01:25:48] And I said, before anybody says anything, and I know, you know, your book extreme ownership talks about this.
[01:25:54] Not, not this exact incident, but in general.
[01:25:58] I said, before anybody says anything, I said, I'm the guy responsible for that attack yesterday.
[01:26:04] I said, so this review, this after action review isn't going to have anything to do with putting blame on anybody.
[01:26:10] Because it's my fault, this is what happened.
[01:26:13] I said, what we're going to do is we got to figure out we got 200 Iraqis showing up next week to get on buses.
[01:26:20] So we could transport them to the police training.
[01:26:24] I said, we got to figure out how do we make this safe a week from now.
[01:26:29] Safeer a week from now.
[01:26:30] So the same thing doesn't happen again.
[01:26:32] And so we took some specific tactical measures to make it much safer.
[01:26:38] One of the things we did, we got these big Texas barricades.
[01:26:42] And we formed up 10 different stalls.
[01:26:47] We're only 10 people at a time could fit inside of a stall.
[01:26:51] So if a suicide bomber did detonate their vest, the most they could kill is nine other people.
[01:26:56] Instead of 100.
[01:26:57] You see what I'm saying?
[01:26:59] And then we set up some other measures.
[01:27:00] I don't want to get into the detail on this podcast because it's not important.
[01:27:03] The point is, is that we made it safer the next week, even after the devastating attack,
[01:27:09] where 100 Iraqis were killed and some of my soldiers were killed,
[01:27:13] we still had those 200 police, or 200 civilians showing up to go to police training that next week.
[01:27:20] And then the thing that happened that was exactly what you said.
[01:27:23] When they saw that they couldn't stop these young people,
[01:27:28] these young men, these young Iraqis coming into continue to see the process through.
[01:27:33] That's when they started to murder the shakes.
[01:27:36] And that's what cut out our leader engagement completely because these shakes used to come to the government center once a week to talk to me.
[01:27:45] Zero showed up.
[01:27:47] Once they started getting murdered, they weren't showing up.
[01:27:52] So the thing we were not able to do was protect those shakes.
[01:27:58] And that's what really caused a lot of the turmoil to occur up to the point where you guys got there.
[01:28:07] I've heard Mike McLaughlin.
[01:28:11] Mike McLaughlin?
[01:28:12] Mike McLaughlin.
[01:28:13] Mike McLaughlin.
[01:28:14] Mike McLaughlin.
[01:28:15] I've heard him referred to as the shake of shakes.
[01:28:18] He was one of these guys that kind of got it absolutely.
[01:28:22] And was making friends.
[01:28:24] And he was that kind of guy.
[01:28:26] He was he owned his own construction business.
[01:28:28] He was a field artillery officer.
[01:28:30] And since we had the triple-due from Utah National Guard as the GS artillery battalion,
[01:28:36] you know, I had this extra field artillery lieutenant colonel there.
[01:28:40] And so I made a my leader engagement officer.
[01:28:44] And he was just this type of guy being a business man.
[01:28:47] And he was talking about using National Guard civilian skills.
[01:28:50] You know, he's an entrepreneur.
[01:28:52] He was just able to connect with all these different Iraqis.
[01:28:55] He used to say that Ramadi because of your fratis river.
[01:28:59] And the I think was the NASAR canal running into your fratis river.
[01:29:03] He said that reminded him of Pittsburgh, you know, with the rivers running together.
[01:29:08] So he told everybody, he told all these Iraqis that, you know,
[01:29:12] someday Ramadi is going to be like Pittsburgh.
[01:29:15] And I'm going to come back and visit.
[01:29:16] You know, I'm going to bring my wife and kids back here.
[01:29:19] Yeah.
[01:29:20] How long after the the glass factory bombing?
[01:29:24] So then the recruit starts showing up again.
[01:29:27] Yeah.
[01:29:28] The insurgents realize, oh, we haven't broken their will yet.
[01:29:31] We got to start killing the shakes.
[01:29:33] Was that a week later, two weeks later?
[01:29:36] I'd say it was within four.
[01:29:37] You know, I don't have this on the tip of my memory,
[01:29:41] but it was probably within about four weeks.
[01:29:44] I think the intel that I remember was, I think it was seven or eight of the main shakes got murdered.
[01:29:53] Yes.
[01:29:54] And then the other shakes, most of them just fled.
[01:29:59] They went to ground.
[01:30:00] Yeah, they either fled or went to ground.
[01:30:02] And the other reason why Ramadi was so dysfunctional is right when the war started.
[01:30:08] There were some like really heavy duty main shakes living in Ramadi.
[01:30:12] They all went to Jordan.
[01:30:14] So the shakes that were left in Ramadi were the sub shakes.
[01:30:18] So, but they were still the power brokers there.
[01:30:22] But they just weren't as powerful as the shakes.
[01:30:24] So I actually left the the country, but even, you know, like I liked you said,
[01:30:29] you know, they got murdered and that really.
[01:30:32] That really changed things because now the the shakes were not cooperating with us like they had.
[01:30:39] They just kind of went to ground and reneutralized.
[01:30:43] And really, that's the purpose.
[01:30:45] I mean, that's that's that's that's terror, right?
[01:30:49] We are going to terrorize you to the point where you no longer will step up.
[01:30:54] Right.
[01:30:55] And that's exactly what happened.
[01:30:56] And that was the al Qaeda in Iraq segment who was doing that because, you know,
[01:31:01] as you as you know, you know, you mean there there there were different segments of the insurgency.
[01:31:06] One was the acuysie al Qaeda in Iraq.
[01:31:08] The other one was the local insurgence.
[01:31:11] We had a different goal than al Qaeda in Iraq.
[01:31:13] The local insurgence just wanted to coalition forces to leave.
[01:31:16] We could deal with them, you know, because we could let them know that, hey, you, you know,
[01:31:21] men things settled down here when you get enough of your own sons and Iraqi police.
[01:31:26] We will leave.
[01:31:27] We'll be glad to leave.
[01:31:28] That's a good deal.
[01:31:29] You want us to leave.
[01:31:30] We want to leave.
[01:31:31] Exactly.
[01:31:31] Let's figure this out.
[01:31:32] And then you had the criminal element.
[01:31:34] And then you also, you know, the criminal element, they were just concerned what
[01:31:37] make and money by selling weapons.
[01:31:40] And then you also had this fourth contingent there who were former Iraqi generals.
[01:31:45] They knew where the ordinance was hidden.
[01:31:47] You know, there were cashiers all over the place.
[01:31:49] They knew where they were hidden.
[01:31:50] They knew to the terrain.
[01:31:52] And they wanted to regain their status and power again.
[01:31:56] That was there.
[01:31:57] That was their goal.
[01:31:59] You mentioned this very briefly, but, you know, you just mentioned being out.
[01:32:04] And I remember being out on an operation somewhere.
[01:32:08] And there you are.
[01:32:09] You know, there's the brigade commander walking down street.
[01:32:12] And you, you just said you were going to mention a little bit about what that mentality
[01:32:16] was.
[01:32:17] I mean, I, pretty sure I know what it is because I did the same things.
[01:32:21] Like sometimes I was going on operations with my troops because I need to go on
[01:32:25] operations with the troops.
[01:32:27] Was that a similar mindset that you had?
[01:32:30] Yeah.
[01:32:31] You could only learn so much from hearing reports.
[01:32:35] You got to get out there and see things with your own eyes.
[01:32:38] That was one reason.
[01:32:39] The other reason is it did a lot from a rail.
[01:32:42] You know, when the soldiers saw that, I need to commanders out there.
[01:32:46] They feel like somebody is sharing the load.
[01:32:49] And in order to build trust, that, you know, I talk a lot about building trust.
[01:32:53] And one of the, the keys to building trust is to share the load.
[01:32:57] This, this show whoever is working for you that you're willing to do the same thing they're
[01:33:02] doing.
[01:33:03] And so those were the two reasons I felt it was very important to get out there.
[01:33:07] But, you know, I read this book.
[01:33:10] It was called the Clay Pit Pigeons of St. Low.
[01:33:13] Oh, yeah.
[01:33:14] It's covered in on this podcast right here.
[01:33:15] Great.
[01:33:16] Great.
[01:33:16] Great.
[01:33:16] Great.
[01:33:16] Grave John's.
[01:33:17] Glover John's who was also a hero in the Korean War too.
[01:33:20] Yeah.
[01:33:21] By the way.
[01:33:22] But I read that book.
[01:33:24] And one thing Leather John's talked about in that book is when he was going with his little
[01:33:28] command group from point A to point B. And he had his radio operator with them.
[01:33:33] And he had his S3 with them and S2 or whoever he had with them in that command group
[01:33:38] from that battalion headquarters.
[01:33:40] He decided one day to go from point A to point B without a reason to do that.
[01:33:45] And mortars came in and killed about three or four of the soldiers in that command group.
[01:33:49] And he wrote in the book,
[01:33:51] how to light bulb an off in his head that, hey, when I make a decision to go from point A to point B,
[01:33:56] it's just not my life.
[01:33:57] I'm putting on a line.
[01:33:58] I'm putting a life of my command group on the line too.
[01:34:01] The guys who are traveling with me.
[01:34:03] So because I read that, I said to myself,
[01:34:07] I am never going to go from point A to point B just to do a joy ride through
[01:34:11] a remedy.
[01:34:12] Whenever I take my PSD out with me,
[01:34:14] my personal security attachment,
[01:34:16] a bunch of E3s and E4s and E5s.
[01:34:20] If they were going to get killed because I was going from point A to point B,
[01:34:25] I wanted to be a reason for them to die.
[01:34:28] And if so I had to go somewhere with a purpose.
[01:34:31] And I was out a lot because I had a lot of reasons to be out there.
[01:34:36] But I would never ever go out just for a joy ride because that's not what.
[01:34:41] Because I was putting those soldiers at risk every time I went out.
[01:34:45] And I was like, how was it, you know, you show up and there was already a Marine
[01:34:50] Battalion already there.
[01:34:52] Yeah, one five who,
[01:34:54] excellent combat leader,
[01:34:57] Battalion commander who is now a three-star general still serving in the Marines.
[01:35:02] Matter of fact, all three Marine Battalions who served with me because they were on seven
[01:35:06] month rotation.
[01:35:07] So the one five was there.
[01:35:08] They served me for two months.
[01:35:10] Then the three seven came in and served me for seven months and then the three
[01:35:13] eight came in.
[01:35:15] All three of those Battalion commanders are general officers now.
[01:35:18] You know, the Marine Corps is a small corps.
[01:35:21] And if you're going to become an infantry battalion commander in the Marines,
[01:35:25] you've got to have your shit together.
[01:35:27] They don't put anybody in charge of a Marine infantry battalion.
[01:35:30] And all three of those commanders were excellent.
[01:35:33] Was there any time, you know,
[01:35:36] the three people always talk about the competition between the Army, the Marine Corps.
[01:35:44] I'm not even going to say Navy because the Navy makes up such a small element, but you know, the Army
[01:35:48] Marine Corps.
[01:35:49] I always tell anyone and as a matter of fact, it's sort of a point for me.
[01:35:53] If anybody ever tries to, you know,
[01:35:56] get me to say something about the Army and the Marine Corps.
[01:35:58] I won't say, I won't say a negative comment,
[01:36:00] not even in a joking manner.
[01:36:02] I won't do it.
[01:36:03] Because of what I saw over there, what I saw from those soldiers, what I saw from those Marines.
[01:36:08] Did you feel the same thing?
[01:36:11] Just nothing, but nothing, but nothing, but let's work together to get this done.
[01:36:17] Absolutely.
[01:36:18] And I feel the same way about you.
[01:36:20] I will not joke about another service.
[01:36:22] One thing I learned over there,
[01:36:24] even from the Army, you know, a lot of times in our, if you're infantry, you know, you think all the other branches don't matter.
[01:36:31] And I kind of have that attitude before going over there to a degree.
[01:36:35] And one thing I learned is every branch matter,
[01:36:39] matter significantly, every MOS of any soldier.
[01:36:42] I mean, it's all such an important team.
[01:36:45] And in term, you know, and answer your question with the Marines, man,
[01:36:49] I just learned to respect those Marines so much.
[01:36:52] They respected us, you know, I was a little bit concerned.
[01:36:55] Here I am a national guard brigade commander, and now I've got an act of duty,
[01:36:59] Marine Battalion, task organized in my brigade, and I have an act of duty army battalion.
[01:37:04] When I first got there was 269 armor before first at a 506 got there.
[01:37:09] I'm second man, what are these act of duty,
[01:37:11] Battalion commander is going to think of a national guard brigade commander.
[01:37:14] They showed me nothing but respect.
[01:37:17] And I think that's the way you got to do it.
[01:37:19] You have to personally, I think, you know, if you're going to work with anybody in the military,
[01:37:27] you have to come from the perspective that these guys are professional.
[01:37:32] They know their business until they give you a reason to feel differently.
[01:37:36] You know, and I feel that way about trust, too.
[01:37:40] And a lot of people don't understand this at first, but, you know, in order to create trust in an organization,
[01:37:45] I think you have to trust your followers first before they will trust you.
[01:37:50] And the question I like to ask people is this.
[01:37:53] I say, have you ever worked for somebody that didn't trust you?
[01:37:57] And people say, yeah, you know, there's been a case where I work for somebody who didn't trust me.
[01:38:03] I said, were you able to trust that person?
[01:38:06] And the answer is always, no, how could you trust somebody who doesn't trust you?
[01:38:10] So if I'm a leader and I don't trust my subordinates, if I just come in with attitude,
[01:38:15] I'm not going to trust you until you prove you could, I could trust you.
[01:38:18] How they're going to trust me because you cannot trust somebody who doesn't trust you.
[01:38:22] So you have to trust others first.
[01:38:25] But again, those, those baton commanders from all three Marine battalions, all two Army Battalions that act of duty units that worked with me,
[01:38:34] showed nothing but respect and trust of me and thank God.
[01:38:39] I never did anything to do anything that caused them not to trust me.
[01:38:45] So I'm just, I'm just so thankful that I had such professionals to work with over there.
[01:38:50] And then of course, the Battalion Commander from the National Guard Unit set were with me.
[01:38:54] You know, I had National Guard Battalion from Vermont, who we never worked with before those tasks organized to me from Utah,
[01:39:01] with the Fielder Teller Unit that was task organized to, to my brigade and everybody just came together.
[01:39:09] And again, I think, because it was so violent there, people just knew the, hey, we got to do our job, you know.
[01:39:15] And it's funny, after coming back and continuing in the Army in a non-worthime environment,
[01:39:25] it's funny how that attitude changes a little bit when you're in a peace time setting.
[01:39:34] I've heard you tell a story about one of your, one of your Marines, EOD guys, and really just, I would love for you to be able to share that story.
[01:39:48] And I think you know the one I'm talking about.
[01:39:50] Yeah, absolutely. This happened on September 19, 2005.
[01:39:54] And I actually, earlier that morning, we had one of our soldiers killed. He was a driver of a Bradley fighting vehicle. I do went up underneath the driver's compartment of his Bradley and he was killed.
[01:40:09] And later on that day, we had a patrol under the command of a lieutenant from the Vermont National Guard, who was conducting a patrol down to the to me area of Ramadi.
[01:40:22] And you may recall there was a railroad bridge down there. And we had an outpost that that railroad bridge that didn't exist before we got there.
[01:40:31] The brigade that was there before us just didn't have the, what it took to get down there and put that outpost in, but we put the outpost in.
[01:40:40] And then we had to secure that area to keep the lines of communication operational, so we could rotate troops in and out, get a logist down there, get a QRF down there.
[01:40:50] Whenever we had to, a quick reaction force. And so anyway, we had this lieutenant from the Vermont National Guard patrolling that area and for up armored humvies.
[01:41:02] And he began to get an surgeon fire from, around by the railroad bed.
[01:41:07] And so he ordered his platoon, which was for up armored humvies to start maneuvering toward that insurgent position.
[01:41:15] So they could close with them and destroy them. And as he was maneuvering in his vehicle, a subsurface ID detonated that had probably been there, maybe about a year in the ground.
[01:41:27] I don't know, you know, some of these IDs have been planted there for months.
[01:41:31] And I did detonates and instantly kills the lieutenant and the two soldiers who were in that up armored humvie with them.
[01:41:41] And some 3K IA instantly. And whenever we would have attacks like this, we would try to, whenever we could send our EOD team down to do a post blast analysis to determine the type of tactics, the type of ordinance,
[01:41:57] the type of procedures, the insurgents for using when they conducted these attacks.
[01:42:02] And we did that, just try to prevent these attacks from happening again in the future.
[01:42:06] And so gun resgt. Michael Burkehart was the gun resgt, who led two other Marines down to that site.
[01:42:15] And it was chaotic down there, you know, but our guys were providing security.
[01:42:19] They're going to get down there with the EOD, with just two fellow Marines.
[01:42:23] And he sees that destroyed up armored humvie and near the up armored humvie, he sees this crater, a couple feet deep, about four feet in diameter.
[01:42:31] He just made an assumption that that's where the IED had been placed. So he jumps down in the crater, take a closer look in as soon as he was in the crater. He realized he wasn't at a good place because he saw 252 millimeter artillery shells in the ground in front of him,
[01:42:47] what red detonation core running into the nose of those shells. So he took his K-bar knife, cut the red dead cord, believed he'd neutralized the IED. He didn't see a third artillery shell in the crater behind him.
[01:43:01] The the vices, those insurgents, to use, there were Seneo base stations, which were high power cordless phones, they use them a lot in Africa, like in villages to get telephoned reception within their village.
[01:43:14] So it's a very high powered cordless phone base and they would, they would strap that base to their artillery shell and then use a cordless phone about a kilometer away.
[01:43:26] They usually had about a kilometer distance, they would hit the button on that that nation device to cause the IED to explode.
[01:43:32] And in the surgeon was obviously out there in the distance watching hit the button on that detonation device, artillery shell blows up and back a gunny berkart, knocks him about 15 feet into the air, lands unconscious on the ground like a ragdoll.
[01:43:47] Our soldiers go immediately up to him, they believe the wounds were very, very severe, they call them a Medovac helicopter and they start tending to his wounds as pants were soaked with blood, they cut his pants off.
[01:44:02] He's unconscious. After a couple of minutes, actually regains consciousness, he's laying there on his back and he asks the soldiers if he has his legs because he has no feeling from the waist down.
[01:44:13] He thought he had both legs blown off but the soldiers assured him he had his legs.
[01:44:17] The reason he was concerned about his legs and he told me that this himself is his dad, served three tours in Vietnam.
[01:44:26] On his dad's third tour in Vietnam, his dad was shot in the back by a sniper.
[01:44:31] Gunny berkart had a girl up as a young boy with the pain of seeing his father confined to a wheelchair because his dad was paralyzed from the waist down.
[01:44:44] He was still alive and his dad was seeing him also confined to a wheelchair. That's where he was concerned about his legs. But anyway, they said, no, you got your legs a few minutes go by, they're tending to him. He gets a tingling sensation in his legs. He tells the soldiers he wants to try to stand up and the soldiers couldn't believe this.
[01:45:02] He just got him blown up ten minutes earlier and we had an embed reporter from the Omaha World Harrow on the ground with him that day.
[01:45:14] Gunny berkart stands up and the Medivac chopper lands on the ground behind him and the soldiers go to a Gunny berkart that go Gunny.
[01:45:22] The soldier is not going to have you carry me to that chopper on the stretcher. I'm going to walk there under my own power because I don't want the sergeants have the pleasure of seeing me being carried to the helicopter.
[01:45:45] The reporter takes the picture at that exact second. There's a berkart finger in the air, the fire, a growing protector and front of his groin.
[01:45:58] No pants on and the reporter takes this picture and later on that day the reporter comes in to see me because he had been on the ground with us for almost a month.
[01:46:14] I know it's been a really bad day for you. I lost four soldiers that day. I want to show you this picture. I won't release it unless you give me permission. He lifts up his laptop screen and pulls up the picture.
[01:46:30] I said, you got us, you got to get this in the paper. The rest of the leadership story, what Gunny berkart is this though. It's a cool war story.
[01:46:46] I have the soldiers die, but the leadership component of the story. As I told you he had two young Marines down there with them that day.
[01:47:00] He was going to have to be recovering from those wounds. He wanted to walk there to the helicopter as to not shatter the confidence of those two young Marines that were out there with them.
[01:47:18] The leadership element of the story is even after getting blown up. His main concern was in what his own wounds. His main concern was with the confidence of those two young Marines that he knew was going to be out there later on.
[01:47:44] His concern was with those two young Marines who worked for him. And isn't that what leadership is all about?
[01:47:50] Wearing more about the guys who follow you than you worry about yourself. I just think it's an inspirational story.
[01:47:57] We had very few politicians coming to visit us or quote VIPs coming to visit us in Ramadi, but whenever we did, if I had a brief from the first slide I showed him was Gunny berkart through on a finger of those injuries.
[01:48:12] Some of the other things that are happening is you're spending a bunch of money trying to, you know, the provincial reconstruction and development.
[01:48:26] Tell us a little bit about that.
[01:48:28] Yeah, we had a lot of money to dole out. And this was the issue. We had nobody from the state department there with us until I think the last month before we left because it was so violent.
[01:48:42] So we didn't really have that state department support. And whenever we would, whenever we would give money to the Iraqis to fix the school or a water plant or whatever, then surgeons would destroy it.
[01:48:57] Didn't really do that well with fixing infrastructure there in Ramadi. And as you could probably remember, there was Sue joining down the streets all the time because of the roadside bombs that were blowing up and breaking sewer pipes and everything else.
[01:49:13] So we did do our best to get into schools. We had patrols going into schools all the time passing out stuff that the kids was in schools. It was kind of weird environment there because some days, well not some days.
[01:49:28] Every day you knew you were going to have a high probability of getting shot at or blown up. And yet we tried to create some normalcy, especially with the kids there. And so it was really weird in that way.
[01:49:44] You know, we're talking about extreme ownership a little bit earlier and you know, the, I opened it up talking about a blue on blue that we had you are there at the time. And I know there was a lot of different stuff going on. And it probably didn't even make the radar of what you had seen and what you were dealing with.
[01:50:02] But and it was weird for me because you know, in the seal teams having a blue on blue is it seems like the most impossible thing that could ever occur.
[01:50:16] And you know, how could it possibly happen that one of a good guy shoots a good guy. How is that possible? And so in my chain of command after that happened very early in deployment. For me to try and explain to people that this, this happens. This happens a lot in this environment.
[01:50:38] What was how often were you seeing those situations unfold.
[01:50:43] First let me say in the army, just like in the seals, we take blue on blue very seriously is the matter fact even in training events.
[01:50:50] If there's a, if we're doing a war fighter exercise, which is a computer generator exercise, if there's a blue on blue event in the war fighter, it's got to be investigated. That's us here so we take it.
[01:51:02] I saw blue on blue more often than I would have thought. And it was primarily units passing through another units area of operation where the, you know, the unit passing through wasn't clear on where certain combat outpost or observation posts were set up.
[01:51:28] And they would see what look like, you know, again, a soldier would have weapon in the sand. And I know you talk about in, in your book with Chris Kyle actually where that happens. I remember an interesting situation I'll just mention to you.
[01:51:46] I had a patrol down into meme, which is in southern Ramadi. And they were, you know, conducting their operations down there dealing with Iraqi citizens and talking to them and and such.
[01:51:58] And then there was a civil affairs team that was not part of my brigade that was also in that vicinity.
[01:52:07] And there was some small arms fire and the unit from my brigade that felt that there was an insurgents up on top of a rooftop. And this is very similar to a story you tell.
[01:52:21] And the commander on the ground wanted a super cobra since some Marines were supporting us, not in a patchy but a super cobra fire on the rooftop at what he thought were insurgents up there. And I happened to be in the operation center at the time.
[01:52:38] And I guess it's just over time to get some type of intuition, something just did not seem right. And the fire that this patrol was under wasn't really that significant where I felt it wasn't, you know, life threatening to that patrol.
[01:52:55] And I said, you know, let's just let this play out a little bit more. Let's use some tactical patients here and let this play out a little bit more before I give an order for a super cobra to fire on that target as a turned out it was the civil affairs team on that roof.
[01:53:11] And I just thank God.
[01:53:16] I just thank God that God gave me the presence of mine to to wait a little bit and just see how things develop before pulling to trigger on that thing. So it's it's just have to again use, you know, real big in the army, you know, especially when you're a lieutenant or something and hey, you got to make a decision.
[01:53:34] And I mean, I talked about making decisions quickly. Sometimes the best decision to make is let me use some tactical patients. Let me just see how this plays out a little bit until I get a little bit more information before I pull the trigger on something.
[01:53:47] Yeah, the other part of that is not not getting emotional because as you know, and I think we were talking about earlier, I think before we even started recording is a lot of times.
[01:53:58] And see who is attacking you, right, and you're losing guys. Guys are getting wounded, guys are getting killed. And now all of a sudden someone's telling you we see the bad guys.
[01:54:08] It's it's hard not to just have an emotional moment to say, hey, oh, there's bad guys there. Let's get them.
[01:54:16] Yes. And you have to take a moment to make sure that the decision you're making is the right decision. And like you said, sometimes it's a pause and I've been talking about this a lot lately.
[01:54:27] So one of the principles of leadership that I talk about all the time is default aggressive, which means you're going to make something happen. Make it happen. Like, like don't wait.
[01:54:38] But there's if you pay attention to that term default aggressive, it's the default mode.
[01:54:44] It's not it's not the mandatory mode. It can be overruled. It can be overridden.
[01:54:50] The the Marine Corps just came out with a new book called Learning and one of them for one of the terms that they use throughout the book is they try to train Marines to have a bias for action.
[01:55:00] Same thing. It's not blind action. It's not take a media action no matter what. It's lean towards taking action.
[01:55:07] That's the same thing with default aggressive. It's hey, your default mode is I'm going to be aggressive. That doesn't mean you are necessarily going to be aggressive.
[01:55:18] Yeah. And you know, when you're engaged in fighting a counter in certainty, the other thing is you don't. You don't want to kill an insurgent at the expense of killing innocent civilians.
[01:55:31] And that's something from reading history since I was a teenager, especially World War II history, you know, all of the civilians that were killed during World War II.
[01:55:42] And I remember when I first got through a moddy, this is how I had learned as I was there, you know, we talk about continuous learning.
[01:55:49] As I would say that it shakes, hey, this is a battle going on here.
[01:55:55] Civilians are going to die. You got to accept that. They didn't want to accept that. That was their tribesmen, you know, they didn't want to accept that.
[01:56:02] Yeah, these civilians are going to die. And I learned through the course of time there that we had to do if we wanted to win this thing.
[01:56:11] We had to do all we could do to not kill innocent Iraqi citizens. And if that meant not killing an insurgent in order to save three innocent citizens, you were better.
[01:56:23] You were better to I felt you were better to operate that way.
[01:56:27] Yeah, I think that's the that's the standard that's the standard that's what that's that's the American.
[01:56:32] Yeah way and that you know, that's another thing and we've talked about this a little bit and then this is.
[01:56:38] I don't like to get wrapped up in, you know, people that are going to argue political points about, you know, the way things unfolded that the way things unfolded, right?
[01:56:51] But one of the things that you hear a lot is people will talk about, you know what I'm, when I say this, I'm really talking about there's people that just look at the Iraq war as this complete horrible thing everything was wrong.
[01:57:05] And one of the things that they say all the time is that all these civilians died and and something that I try and point out to people all the time is yes, you're right civilians died and yes Americans did kill some of those civilians.
[01:57:24] But we went through extreme measures and took extreme risks always to prevent any civilian casualties and the amount of civilians that Americans actually killed is not a big number.
[01:57:42] The reason that the number of civilians killed is so large is because of the insurgents and because of the fighting that took place in the, you know, she versus SUNY for instance.
[01:57:54] It really, the amount of civilians killed by Americans is a very small number when you compare it to what the insurgents did to the people of Iraq.
[01:58:05] No, absolutely agree. I mean, it is our values and the thing I'm most proud of them, Reigns and soldiers I worked with over there in the seals I worked with over there is that here in two are military values and to our American values of of doing just that.
[01:58:22] Taking great pains not to kill a civilian even at the risk of not killing a bad guy so very, very proud of a quick story I want to share with you.
[01:58:34] The governor that we talked about dealt with him a lot. He had to have a medical procedure conducted at one point in time so since Ramadi was so dysfunctional in chaotic we had to send him the bag dead to an American military treatment facility in Baghdad.
[01:58:47] He's been talking about two weeks for this medical procedure. He comes back and sends a message that he wants to see me so I go see him and he asked everybody in the office to leave, you know, you usually have this on tries of shakes in there and his staff.
[01:59:03] He left except him me and my interpreter. He sits down beside me first time he takes my hand in his and for anybody knows anything about air culture when an Arab man takes another man's hand in his.
[01:59:15] He said, you know, Colonel Granski, many times you have sat here, you've talked to me about American values and values of the Marines and soldiers. I never knew what you were trying to tell me.
[01:59:33] My own eyes, how a wounded and surgeon was brought into the trauma center there. And I saw how your American medic's and nurses and doctors struggled to save the life for this in surgeon.
[01:59:46] I could not believe how hard you Americans worked to save the life of one of your enemies. So now I finally realize what you were trying to tell me about American values. And I mean that really hit home that he saw what his own eyes, how we treated our enemies fighting the save of the life of this in surgeon.
[02:00:09] From a leadership perspective and really from a personal perspective as well. I mean, I know there was months where you lost, lost to very significant casualties.
[02:00:24] And when I look at the glass factory and what it just insane set back. And even here when you talk about it earlier when we weren't recording, you know, just the, the.
[02:00:39] You know that that for you seeing the local populace showing up. I mean, this is the, this is the dream for a, for a counter insurgency is that we're going to get the local populace. They're going to take to the streets and clean up the insurgents and this is how we win and all of a sudden. And a matter of days.
[02:00:58] A pathway to victory is actually visible. And then to have that horrible incident take place losing, you know, you're, you're best friend over there.
[02:01:13] And yet you still have to press on what what is it about how do you do that mentally. How do you get up. How do you move forward when you take these significant setbacks.
[02:01:29] You know, Jack, I think the answer is pretty simple. It's because especially when you're in a leadership position, you've got others counting on you. So because you've got others counting on you, you have no choice, but to continue to even in situations like that to try to be as positive as you could.
[02:01:48] You know, one thing I did over there because you know, the days over there could seem like Groundhog Day to the average soldier out there on a patrol day after day, you know, seeing, you know, these Iraqis give them the stink eye and all that.
[02:02:02] And having his buddy killed and wounded and all of that Groundhog Day, I actually put out what I called success cards on a monthly basis because the average soldier didn't understand the success we were having and had to be communicated to the average soldier marine.
[02:02:18] So what would be on the success card? Okay, we found this many weapons cashiers this month. We detained this many high value target in surgeons this month. We actually did engagements in this many schools this month, etc, etc.
[02:02:34] So there was always something to be able to communicate that you succeeded on that if you were just the average soldier out there doing your job day after day, you might not have seen that, but I think people have to understand when they're in a situation like that.
[02:02:50] Leaders have to have a way to communicate the bigger picture to their followers, so they understand you are making progress because otherwise, you could seem like you're not, but, and that's your question. I think it's just about the fact that people are counting on you, you got to do your job.
[02:03:06] As you guys are nearing the end of deployment, I show up there task unit bruiser. One of the first things that we start planning for is like a philusia style clearance of Ramadi and the plan as I understood it and again, it seems like a long time ago in some ways, and this is one of those ways, trying to remember exactly, but the plan that as I remember is we were starting to organize this thing was that
[02:03:35] all when the one one AD showed up and we have the two two eight and the one one AD on the ground at the same time, we got double the combat power.
[02:03:43] We're going to do a massive push through and I was telling my guys from a political standpoint, it made sense to me because this is why I told my guys I said look, I think this is going to happen and the reason I think it's going to happen is because Maliki, who just is the prime minister and he's a shea and this is a city filled with Sunni people.
[02:04:03] And I bet he's going to say, yep, go for it. I happen to be wrong and Maliki was a lot smarter and was a lot a lot more willing to try and work towards a stable Iraq because he realized that no actually we're not going to do that. There's too much death, there's too much destruction. It will look exactly like what it is, which is a big shea army push into a city filled with Sunni's and a bunch of Sunni's getting displaced and it'll be bad.
[02:04:32] I actually on one of my podcasts was discussing this with one of my friends Darrell and he had read some information that that was all the the plan for a big push through was actually kind of a faint to try and get insurgents to leave.
[02:04:51] And I don't know if it's true or not, I don't know if you know it's true or not. What do you remember about that? I remember there was talk about it. But the other crazy thing there was talk about not having a brigade come in to do a relief with us.
[02:05:06] I was curious about what this area is talking about when two to eight leaves there's not going to be another brigade there. So there was so it went from one extreme to the other. I did hear talk about a major push and I you know through the city to quote clean it out.
[02:05:23] I think that there may not be another brigade to come in actually the brigade that ended up coming in there wasn't really identified until shortly before we left. So I think it was a lot of leaders from both sides I rack and and United States trying to figure out what the best course was and it was a very complex situation, very chaotic.
[02:05:51] And I think that we're just trying to really figure it out. I was in in between my first appointment to Iraq and my second appointment to Iraq. I was the admels aid. So I work for the admels in charge of all the seals great guy and that put me in a lot of meetings a lot of meetings that a O three would never be in some of those meetings in the Pentagon in with with the highest you know the highest leaders in the military.
[02:06:20] And I saw that I saw that there was people inside the military that were wondering if we could win and wondering how we could win if we could win. You know the the report that came out in that that summer no six.
[02:06:40] And I said we can't win. It's unwindable an unwindable situation. So the idea that that both those options were on the board actually kind of makes sense because you had I guarantee you had some people saying what we can't win we can't win in that area.
[02:07:01] And obviously some people saying hey we can we just need to get the combat power that's needed and we need to commit to it. Yeah. So you know there's an old saying you can't kill yourself out of an insurgency.
[02:07:15] Yeah, you can't kill enough in surgeons. There's always going to be more insurgency and even my mindset change while I was there initially when we went in our mission statement was to defeat the the insurgency take away their will to fight.
[02:07:30] And it actually evolved into protecting the populace and there's a big difference between hey let's see how many insurgency kill versus hey let's protect the population and to protect the population you need a certain amount of mass of troops there.
[02:07:49] And I do think what happened when the follow-in brigade came in they did they were able to mass more troops which is great and I give all the soldiers and Marines credit for for the great work they did with with two to with
[02:08:03] Second brigade twenty eight I.D. and then with with the ready first I mean the credit belongs to the average soldier Marine that was out there slugging it out every day to average seal that was out there doing their job every day and not giving up.
[02:08:18] Yeah, I mean they just I mean there's a perfect example of resiliency even with those odds stacked against us. Our soldiers and Marines just would not give up. Yeah, we my my task unit what was good about my task unit I think what was really appreciated.
[02:08:38] And it was we could kill those bad guys and we could kill those bad guys and it was you know you could see you know you talk to a company commander and anyone of those company commanders that were out there they'd go out they'd get in patrol they'd get in a gunfight.
[02:08:55] They'd shoot at some people they wouldn't really know we would leave dead bodies in the streets of the insurgents and it was of the insurgents and that just seemed to be a really good asset and something that made the
[02:09:10] conventional guys man they were they were so happy when we'd show up at one of their one of their combat outposts they would be so happy for us to show up there because they knew that they'd send out a patrol and they'd get in a gunfight for sure and sometimes they'd kill a bad guy but they knew that we would we would rack up these kills and what's
[02:09:31] what's good about it is it allowed us to eliminate the bad guys wall protecting the populist so it was a great tool in this environment to help out and that was
[02:09:46] that's one of the main things that people talk to me about is you know how do you build relationship right and how do you build relationships with people and for me it's real simple you build a relationship by saying how can I help you and that's why when I walked into your office
[02:10:03] and you've got you know what six thousand I guess you include I rack his ten thousand troops there and I'm not thinking about me and what can I do I'm thinking what how can I help you and that's the attitude enough to say
[02:10:16] and that's the attitude we took with the one one eighty when they showed up it wasn't hey we're here it was what can we do to help you how can we what do you need from us how can we be a assistance and and then the relationship is oh we can definitely use your help and then guess what they give back to us help so it's pretty
[02:10:35] you know jockel a lot of things go through my mind as you're talking and again you had that great attitude of how could I how could I help I remember when
[02:10:45] two six nine armor left they were with me for the first six months we were there and then first to five oh six comes in so what's the difference between two six nine arm or in first to five oh six you're talking about an arm or
[02:10:56] a Italian versus a white infantry battalion okay so you know just because two six nine was rotating out doesn't mean they didn't need tanks there so this is a great story about
[02:11:08] uh resilience I guess you could call it with with this national guard platoon that I had working with two six nine armor it was a it was a
[02:11:18] uh platoon from an armor unit in the twenty eight I.D. uh platoon of soldiers so that was I think we had about forty soldiers there and they were tankers though but when they get to two six nine armor in
[02:11:31] these dramatic to work with them that I task organized them to actually I task organized an entire company there armor company and but but two six nine armor
[02:11:43] didn't need them to be armor soldiers they said hey you guys be motorized infantry because we got enough armor soldiers so that's what they were
[02:11:51] until two six nine armor leaves and then the first that a five first that five was six comes in and they said we still need tanks so we took a platoon from this armor company
[02:12:02] put them on tanks because they were trained tankers and they just talk about pivoting okay we're talking about pivoting with COVID-19 these guys pivoted from being tankers to being
[02:12:14] motorized infantry while two six nine armor's there and then first at a five or six infantry comes in they pivot back to being tankers get on tanks and did just a
[02:12:23] fabulous job and they had several main gun engagements in downtown Ramadi while they were working with first at a five or six and the first at five or six love them.
[02:12:35] I forget when month it was but I know there was a I.E.D. that the destroyed a tank in the Malab area which you talk about you know we're a soccer stadium was
[02:12:44] a tank commander was able to get all of his crewmen out of that tank without anybody getting wounded were worse and there's a fight that went on down there for at least 24 hours and a few soldiers were killed during that engagement from from the first at a five or six and but it just goes to show how these soldiers are so adaptable so agile able to pivot like that without complaining.
[02:13:13] It's kind of like this what you need us to do we'll do it. Isn't that amazing story though how many how many soldiers from other armies could make that type of pivot and do it in an outstanding manner like those soldiers that.
[02:13:30] I think that's the power of the American military to have that kind of attitude you know because. It's interesting as you say that hey how many people could pivot. And you're just talking about the pivot. You're not even talking about the fact that these guys are doing combat operation after combat operation after combat operation in the Malab district with subsurface ID's.
[02:13:55] Destroying humvies. You know these these coordinated attacks that they're doing the vehicle born IED's. I mean you were talking about the.
[02:14:05] The checkpoint on the railroad. Yeah right right in between to me and and south central Ramadi.
[02:14:13] That is one of that is that is a checkpoint that got overrun. Yeah got overrun by the enemy massive Iraqi soldiers killed and wounded.
[02:14:25] Most of the Iraqi soldiers deserted after that never came back but that's the kind of the enemy there was really good.
[02:14:33] Yeah and they use the same they they use combined arms you know between RPGs and mortars and machine gun and then vehicle born IED's. They coordinated over the radio they had met a back procedures.
[02:14:45] I mean they did what.
[02:14:48] What military units did. Yeah what it was a military unit and they had a goal of creating a caliphate.
[02:14:55] Yeah I mean that was their goal you know talk about purpose you know talk about inspiring people by giving them a purpose that that was their purpose and life was to create.
[02:15:05] Was to take over Ramadi so they could have that as part of what they thought would be in a mercenalific.
[02:15:13] So it's really interesting that's full spectrum between a follugious style clearance and a hay would leaving and not coming back.
[02:15:21] Yeah that that shows you where the war was I mean it really does.
[02:15:29] Now we we start getting towards the end of year deployment and we're starting turnover procedures and at some point obviously.
[02:15:36] We went from hey we're going to do a massive kinetic sweep.
[02:15:40] To all right we're going to continue this counter insurgency we're going to start doing this in the less kinetic way then a follugious style.
[02:15:48] And it starts to become time for you guys to kind of kind of pack up head home.
[02:15:56] You went when you guys as a unit head back how long does that redeployment take.
[02:16:05] Well the.
[02:16:09] And we're going to take place about two weeks so you know we call it left seat right seat so for the first week that the brigade that's going to take our place gets there.
[02:16:19] We're still in the left seat or to drive receipt and they're observing.
[02:16:23] And then for the second week there in a driver seat there in the left seat and then we're in the right seat observing them.
[02:16:29] So in theory it's it's about two weeks and that's about what it was maybe it was 10 days instead of 14.
[02:16:35] So when we get back we went back down to quite for a few days and then got back over to the states here I think was four ticks where we actually demobed that and that was I think about five or six days so.
[02:16:50] There wasn't a lot of there really wasn't that much time to decompress before sending these national guard soldiers which I commend it obviously like we already talked about it some active duty forces with me to but for the national guard units that were with me.
[02:17:04] To go back into their civilian environments it wasn't a lot of decompression time when you get right down to from leaving an environment like a Romadi I mean.
[02:17:14] Dangerous chaotic environment like that to go back and doing whatever their civilian job was but that's the other thing about the guard that I just want I don't know if we emphasize it enough is.
[02:17:25] The unique thing with the national guard they have their military training so they could do their military skill but then they also bring civilian skills with them I'll give you an example.
[02:17:36] I had some officers who worked in the police departments here in the states and we had them working with Iraqi police to try to help them become better police you know we had.
[02:17:48] We had everything that we had bankers we had carpenters we had electricians and a lot of that led to creating better.
[02:17:58] A better infrastructure at our combat outpost and in other places so our soldiers could live a little bit more of a better life when they when they weren't out on patrol so a lot of these civilian skills that the guard have actually.
[02:18:12] We pay dividends when you go into a combat situation a lot of people don't think about that.
[02:18:19] It's crazy for me to think now we we've kind of changed our perspective now on how you decompress people and even like in the seal teams when we came home from Romadi we got on a plane we flew home and we were home.
[02:18:30] We were going to be quite frank what we did was they sent us we went to a bar and we drank and we and they had they had guys to shuttle us home with our one new guy would drive our car and the other new guy would drive.
[02:18:44] Sorry one new guy would drive us in our car to our house another new guy would follow him and take him back to do the next run for the next guy.
[02:19:05] And then we went to tell stories you want to get it out of your system you want to laugh you want to cry you want to you want to kind of like you said decompress.
[02:19:14] For the soldiers coming home and then they're rolling back into a civilian job and all of a sudden they're not seeing their their friends every day the people that they just served with.
[02:19:23] What did it look like from your position as the commander as all that unfolded what were the reports coming back where guys getting in trouble was it useful and one thing that I tell.
[02:19:33] Military guys all time active duty guys when they get out whether they just get out of whether the retire like you got to find a new mission right so I imagine some people.
[02:19:43] And they say it's time to go back to work okay go back to work they kind of get back into that mission but for me I we see guys that have the most trouble when they don't have.
[02:19:52] They don't have a job to go into they don't have anything to do now they kind of the devils what is it the idle hands are the devil's play thing.
[02:19:59] And I think again I had 35 states contribute soldiers to second brigade 28th ID and so you know the main states were Vermont Pennsylvania and Utah so for those states I think things were a little bit easier because at least you still had soldier from your state from your unit even though you might be miles apart but still relatively close in hand.
[02:20:24] And for the other soldiers that we might have got you know 40 soldiers from Illinois or you know another 130 soldiers from Michigan I mean a lot harder because.
[02:20:38] And they don't know what those soldiers really went through I mean they read about if they saw it on the news but they weren't there and you probably know jaco that it's pretty hard to talk to somebody who hasn't been there about what we've been through I could have much easier time talking you about this than I could.
[02:20:54] And I think that's the reason for somebody who's who's never been there and and even if I'm just talking to and acquaintance somewhere.
[02:21:09] And it is very difficult for national guard soldiers because they aren't as they're not staying in the same military post or base that a seal is or that an active duty soldier or marine might be so that that is a difficult part and we just try to keep an eye on each other and that's what we've tried to do when we when we came back home I will tell you.
[02:21:34] There were some suicides and there were some other issues that even the the state soldiers are still still trying to deal with and it's it's a never ending fight when you come back from a place like that.
[02:21:50] But what was your situation when you got home did you stay on active duty for a while did you go back to work. Yeah I did stay on at that point in time I wasn't with the family business anymore at this point in time I was already off working with a consulting firm in the Philadelphia region.
[02:22:07] So yeah I stayed on an active duty for for a few months and then I went back to work one thing I did have the opportunity to do we did have 15 of our Pennsylvania National Guards and get killed in action over there and I had an opportunity to I just made it a point to go see the families and.
[02:22:27] I just have to say how much respect I have for the families and as you know whenever one of our brothers or brothers get killed and thank out although I had 200 female soldiers with me in the brigade none of the females were killed over there.
[02:22:45] I always feel bad for the family you know yeah I feel bad if I lose a friend obviously feel terrible about it. But the thing that hits me most emotionally is when I think about the family.
[02:22:59] It's going through with that mother and father are going through with the brothers sisters are going through with the wife or you know going through the spouse is going through and that's what gets me most emotional when I think about that.
[02:23:13] I wanted to go and visit those families and they're remarkable. I thought there might be some that would be very very. Angry and every one of them respected the sacrifice that they're that they're loved one had made so that just really heart and me about.
[02:23:33] And so I think that's the fact that it what even though it was the soldier that made the decision to join the family still supported that decision and supported the sacrifice that they made and that really heart and me in a way.
[02:23:47] I do want to talk about so I don't know if you know this or not but.
[02:23:51] I created a warm memorial to the the fallen that I do know that I've seen it it's pretty it's pretty special was around the sembra of 2005 I was talking to my sergeant major and we decided that at that point at time I can't remember exactly what the number of KIA was in December but it was at least.
[02:24:13] 40 I know that much and we just decided that we should create some type of memorial to these soldiers and Marines and by the way at the end of the day by time we had left there there were three navy corps and that had been killed in action there too.
[02:24:31] But at any rate. We put out the word in the brigade that we wanted to have a memorial to these soldiers and.
[02:24:43] One of our Pennsylvania National Guards became forward to what it designed it was a female she was an art teacher and her civilian job and she put out this concept I remember when she described it to myself in the sergeant major I think in early January.
[02:24:58] I actually brought tears to my eyes it was an oblisk and a pair of dog tags for every soldier that was killed but hang inside of this oblisk and it would have cuts through it.
[02:25:11] The cuts look like it was shrapnel cuts and and and a machine gun fired into it too and as the wind would blow through this oblisk as the dog tags would clink together in the wind.
[02:25:25] The boulism was to fall in warriors as they continue to speak to us. So think about that.
[02:25:31] And so we we we had our soldiers in the maintenance units built this memorial in Ramadi.
[02:25:39] We dedicated it on Easter Sunday April 16 2006 we dedicated it we had I think it was a at that time about 72 of our soldiers had been killed in the end of the Marines and others had been killed in action at that time.
[02:25:54] And we had the deputy commander from the Marine Division there for this ceremony we had and all the battalion commanders were there and it was just a special tribute and we took a risk because you don't want that many people.
[02:26:11] You know congregated in one spot at any area and there and we did have our share of rockets and mortars falling on the for operating base and we have this memorial ceremony in April and then when we left there in June.
[02:26:26] We deconstructed it put it in a connect ship the back home and then in October 2016 we re dedicated it in a 40 need town gap it still stands there this day I think it's one of the only warm memorials.
[02:26:42] That first memorial had is the mother's home is Sam with one stone piece of ground inside from the prison through Hamburg, total housing for them and including the children as a grown son and then he constructed and red dedicated back here in the United States I don't know if there's another memorial like that.
[02:26:59] He was a sergeant, a filler, kill, res sergeant, who had serious burns and from months
[02:27:08] was in treatment at Brook Army Medical Center and succumbed to his wounds that had received
[02:27:13] the November of 2005.
[02:27:14] He succumbed to those wounds in July 2006 and he was the last set of dog tags that we
[02:27:21] hang inside of that memorial.
[02:27:23] And again, it took me years before I could explain to you what I just did without crying.
[02:27:32] And just that symbolism of the—and I—of is there a memorial day.
[02:27:37] The symbolism is the wind blows through that obless.
[02:27:40] Those dog tags clink together, those fallen warriors continuing to speak to us.
[02:27:45] I think is just so powerful.
[02:27:47] And that's why I think events where we do something in honor of a fallen warrior are so
[02:27:54] important because I believe whenever we speak a fallen warriors name or do something
[02:28:00] in their honor, we keep their spirit on earth alive.
[02:28:05] I think there's something powerful of that.
[02:28:07] Keeping their spirit on earth alive.
[02:28:08] Think about that.
[02:28:09] I'm sorry to deviate here for a minute, but we do this march for the fallen that I think
[02:28:14] you're aware of.
[02:28:19] It's a 28-mile rock march we do at Fort Indian Town Gap.
[02:28:23] Very similar to the Baton Memorial Death March we usually get about 1,000 people there every
[02:28:23] year.
[02:28:24] And everyone does that rock march in honor of a fallen warrior.
[02:28:28] And when you're out there doing a 28-mile rock march for the 35-pound pack, your feet
[02:28:35] are bleeding a little bit, your sweating, your tear up now and then when you're thinking about
[02:28:40] what you're doing.
[02:28:41] That better dedication to keep the spirit of a fallen warrior alive.
[02:28:45] It's just amazing.
[02:28:46] I just think it's an important thing to do.
[02:28:48] Memorial Day is an important holiday remembering our fallen is so important.
[02:28:53] We could never forget the sacrifice they made and we could never forget the families that
[02:28:57] are still suffering to this day that lost loved ones in Iraq and Afghanistan.
[02:29:04] And that memorial march is up.
[02:29:06] It's open to the public.
[02:29:07] Yeah, it's open to the public.
[02:29:08] September 26 this year, so far it has an app and canceled because of the COVID or anything.
[02:29:13] If people at Google march for the fallen to 2020, it'll come up by just Google that today
[02:29:20] to make sure what would come up and it came up by Google March for the fall in 2020, it was
[02:29:26] the first thing to come up.
[02:29:27] You'll see it's at 14 in town Gap, Pennsylvania, 28-mile rock march in honor of those
[02:29:32] fallen warriors.
[02:29:34] And just a great tribute to keep the spirit of these fallen warriors alive.
[02:29:39] No doubt about it.
[02:29:41] And I remember seeing that on the list when I got there, you guys fell in the ground.
[02:29:46] I think I got there right around the time it was dedicated.
[02:29:49] I forget the exact date.
[02:29:51] I'm going to actually try and figure that out because I should know that date.
[02:29:55] But you were telling me earlier and then I agreed.
[02:30:00] You asked me if I kept the journal in the Ramadi as it known.
[02:30:03] He said you had neither in both of us wish that we had because you know you just a little
[02:30:07] dates like that of that they mean a lot.
[02:30:12] But I remember seeing that and of course it's very sobering for when I showed up there
[02:30:19] and look we knew what we were getting into.
[02:30:22] So to see that monument, to see those dark tags and know what each one of those represents
[02:30:29] was definitely a very sober and very solemn moment.
[02:30:35] And you're absolutely correct.
[02:30:39] Every time you talk about the people that you know, the people that you lost, their spirits
[02:30:47] still here.
[02:30:48] That's one of the best things about the job that I do.
[02:30:51] I go around and talk to companies and even right here right now, this is what we're doing.
[02:30:55] We got friends.
[02:30:56] We got people that sacrificed so that we can sit here today.
[02:31:01] And we can never forget that.
[02:31:03] We can never forget their families.
[02:31:06] And you know, a children's fire are warriors to continue to adhere to our values and continue
[02:31:13] to drive on whatever mission it is because of all these soldiers from everywhere that made
[02:31:19] the ultimate sacrifice to build a country that we have.
[02:31:23] And I know, you know, obviously a lot of social unrest and there's a lot of things that
[02:31:27] may not be perfect about our country, but I get guaranteed this after being over and
[02:31:32] I rack after spending the last three years in Europe and traveling to about 40 different
[02:31:36] countries over there.
[02:31:38] There is no country that is as great as our country in many, many different ways.
[02:31:44] So it's an imperfect country, but it's a country that people from all over the world want
[02:31:50] to gravitate to and come here.
[02:31:53] We just got to all work together to keep this country great.
[02:31:56] That's what that was about.
[02:31:58] We all work together to gain the promise that our forefathers, one of this country to be.
[02:32:06] And they probably, you know, hey, when they wrote that constitution, they knew it wasn't
[02:32:13] a perfect constitution for a lot of reasons, primarily because of slavery.
[02:32:18] And we have to just keep working at things to make this country what it needs to be.
[02:32:24] And we all need to work together to achieve that.
[02:32:27] You ended up going to 40 different countries when I was over in Europe in the last three
[02:32:32] years.
[02:32:33] Yeah, yeah, and many of the many times over.
[02:32:35] So was that did you, so you picked up?
[02:32:37] So you got home from Remadi.
[02:32:39] What was your next, what happened then?
[02:32:40] Yeah, when I got home from Remadi, I did get promoted to become a one star.
[02:32:48] I worked at our joint force headquarters at an Italian town gap.
[02:32:51] And then in 2011, I was asked by our agent, General LeCommon full time.
[02:32:56] So I served full time for year as one of the deputy agent in general at our joint force headquarters.
[02:33:02] And then I was given the honor of commanding to 28th Infantry Division for over three years.
[02:33:07] So I did that full time from 2012 until 2016.
[02:33:15] And then in 2016, I had the honor of getting assignment to go to US Army Europe and
[02:33:21] Viesbot in Germany for three years as one of the deputy commanding generals there.
[02:33:25] And I served over there again for three years, worked with our NATO allies and other
[02:33:31] European partners.
[02:33:34] And I have the greatest respect for our allies over there.
[02:33:39] Was in Ukraine many times to the training center that we have there.
[02:33:44] Was a Ukrainian battalion rotates out of the Dombaes region where they're still fighting
[02:33:51] the Russian-led separatists there.
[02:33:53] And by the way, when I left there, about 30 Ukrainian soldiers were getting killed every
[02:33:59] month.
[02:34:00] So I mean, it's still a war going on in the Dombaes region.
[02:34:04] But battalions would rotate out of the Dombaes, the Ukrainian battalions.
[02:34:08] They'd come back to Western Ukraine to a training area that we had there.
[02:34:13] United States, Canada, Lithuania, and Poland would work together to help this battalion
[02:34:20] train to be a more effective fighting unit.
[02:34:24] And so was there many times.
[02:34:26] But yes, spent a lot of time in Poland and the three Baltic countries down in the Balkans.
[02:34:31] I mean, I was all over the place.
[02:34:34] Did you speak any Polish?
[02:34:36] Very, very little.
[02:34:37] Yeah, very, I could say good night and hello and those type of thing.
[02:34:41] The funny thing is, my grandmother and father, my grandmother died when I was 10.
[02:34:46] So I remember my grandmother and father speaking Polish together.
[02:34:50] And the reason they didn't want to teach any of us kids Polish is so they could talk
[02:34:54] and Polish, but I would also know what they were trying to say.
[02:34:58] So they didn't try to teach us the language.
[02:35:00] One of my friends, it was in the sealed teams with me.
[02:35:05] He was, his dad was a Mexican.
[02:35:09] And the kid looked Mexican and I said, he had a little bit of an accent.
[02:35:18] You know, a little bit of an accent just from growing up with his dad who spoke Spanish.
[02:35:22] And who, to this guy's admission, he said, you know, my dad didn't really speak English
[02:35:30] very well at all.
[02:35:32] And his mom spoke Spanish too.
[02:35:34] And I said, oh, that's why you have a little bit of an accent.
[02:35:37] He said, yeah, you know, that's probably where it comes from.
[02:35:39] And I said, well, you know, at least you speak Spanish.
[02:35:43] And he goes, no, I don't speak Spanish.
[02:35:45] His dad refused to have him speak Spanish because his dad wanted him to be an American.
[02:35:52] And even though his dad wasn't, you know, great with English, he wouldn't speak to him
[02:35:57] in Spanish.
[02:35:58] And I thought that's where you're going to go, you know, because that was kind of the old
[02:36:01] attitude was, hey, we're in America now.
[02:36:04] So interesting story.
[02:36:07] You know, I did, you know, have this little thing that you, you put together when, when
[02:36:13] you were the commanding general there at the two to eight.
[02:36:15] There was a couple little things.
[02:36:16] I just wanted to highlight.
[02:36:17] I just made it the 28th.
[02:36:18] I did not the two to eight.
[02:36:19] Oh, sorry.
[02:36:20] Yes, the 28th idea.
[02:36:21] Yeah.
[02:36:22] When you were the division commander, you had a sort of a guidance for your troops.
[02:36:26] And there's just a couple good leadership things in here.
[02:36:29] It says every leader is trusted and expected to use disciplined initiative within the commanders
[02:36:34] and tent without wasting time requesting permission.
[02:36:38] Report up as the situation develops, request further guidance or support as necessary, demonstrating
[02:36:45] a high level of initiative is worth the risk of making honest mistakes.
[02:36:52] So great, concise statement there.
[02:36:55] Yeah, I think that came from my time in Ramadi where I realized, you know, as we were
[02:36:59] in distributed operations there, I mean, most operations were conducted at the Platoon
[02:37:04] level there.
[02:37:06] And, you know, the situation was so dynamic that you couldn't waste time asking your higher
[02:37:12] level leader, you know, what should I do?
[02:37:14] You know, you had to show an issue of it.
[02:37:16] So when I came back, I knew our soldiers were going to continue to deploy overseas.
[02:37:20] As a matter of fact, we have elements of our aviation brigade in Pennsylvania, getting ready
[02:37:24] to go over to Afghanistan.
[02:37:27] And I just knew, this was going to be a long war.
[02:37:29] We were going to continue to deploy troops over there.
[02:37:32] And I realized one of my jobs as the Vision Commander, even if we didn't deploy the
[02:37:37] entire division over there, I had units going over, had to get them ready to fight in chaotic
[02:37:43] situations in the best way to do that was to help them understand the need to develop initiative.
[02:37:49] And we had to do that in a training environment so that when they got to a combat environment,
[02:37:54] they would continue to do that.
[02:37:56] This is the thing.
[02:37:57] If in a training environment, you don't allow your soldiers or in a civilian organization
[02:38:02] to allow your people, say, in a steady state operation, to demonstrate initiative, then when
[02:38:09] you get as a soldier to deploy overseas, if you're not used to this, this is playing
[02:38:13] initiative in a training environment, guess why?
[02:38:15] It doesn't automatically flip a switch in its combat.
[02:38:17] Now I'm going to show some initiative.
[02:38:20] That doesn't happen the same in a civilian company.
[02:38:24] If you don't allow your employees to demonstrate initiative, steady state, then when you
[02:38:28] hit something like the coronavirus COVID-19, they're not automatically going to display
[02:38:35] initiative.
[02:38:36] So I think it's important to encourage that before you're in a crisis.
[02:38:40] No doubt about that.
[02:38:42] That was always my main goal.
[02:38:44] That's the fourth law of combat that I talk about is decentralized command.
[02:38:50] And it's the most powerful of the laws of combat that I talk about.
[02:38:56] Not the other ones are powerful, but you can't have decentralized command unless you have
[02:39:00] cover move, unless you have, unless you keep things simple, unless you prioritize next
[02:39:03] to you.
[02:39:04] Those things don't really work.
[02:39:06] Decentralized command cannot work without those three, but once you implement decentralized
[02:39:10] command, this is what allows a team to really do well.
[02:39:14] Yes, everybody leads.
[02:39:15] That's what you want.
[02:39:17] So what was your last tour in the Army?
[02:39:19] My last tour in the Army was as one of the deputy commanding generals at US Army Europe.
[02:39:24] I served there from 2016 to 2019.
[02:39:27] I left Europe in April 2019 and then retired in Pennsylvania in June 2019.
[02:39:34] Two months after I left Europe.
[02:39:36] And then what point did you start writing the book?
[02:39:39] You know, the funny thing with the book is again, I did this bicycle trip, but my wife
[02:39:43] in 15 months old son in 1983.
[02:39:46] So here it was 2019, just retired from the Army, sitting around a fire pit with my younger
[02:39:52] son Timothy, and he starts asking me questions about this bike trip.
[02:39:57] Because I believe in an I didn't talk about it all that much for some reason.
[02:40:01] And I start telling him stories and we're laughing and he goes, Daddy goes, you should
[02:40:05] write a book about it.
[02:40:07] And so I get back home, I'm talking to my wife and she goes, you know John, I think
[02:40:10] that's a good idea because your kids and your grandkids need to know the story.
[02:40:16] And I do have two grandchildren.
[02:40:18] And I said, you know what?
[02:40:19] If nothing else, just for the family, you know, to have the story.
[02:40:22] So I took this journal that I kept on the bike trip that was sitting in a shoe box, literally
[02:40:28] a shoe box for over 35 years, used that as a basis to write the book.
[02:40:34] And then because I'm as passionate about leadership as you are, Jockel, I wanted to put
[02:40:41] a leadership component in there because there were so many leadership elements to that
[02:40:45] bike trip.
[02:40:46] And so I wrote the book, I started in the fall of 2019 and then was able to get a
[02:40:53] published in February of 2020.
[02:40:57] Quick turnaround.
[02:40:58] You know, like I said, there's a ton of stuff, great stuff inside this book.
[02:41:04] I want to read one more chunk of it, pretty good chunk here.
[02:41:09] And the part, this is a part called leadership.
[02:41:11] And look, you've got these leadership lessons kind of strewn throughout.
[02:41:14] When you put an exclamation point on them here, you say this character, competence, and
[02:41:20] resilience are essential, essential for effective leadership.
[02:41:24] Leaders must be true to their values even when their backs are against the wall.
[02:41:28] Leaders must cultivate trust by trusting others first, sharing the load, and following
[02:41:33] through on promises.
[02:41:35] Leaders must care more about those they lead than they care about themselves.
[02:41:40] They must clearly communicate a vision or action, an action plan that is realistic and
[02:41:46] believable, be problem solvers and have the courage to make decisions.
[02:41:51] Leaders must help others develop and become stronger and leaders must be fit in many ways,
[02:41:56] including physical, spiritually, mental, and emotional fitness.
[02:42:01] Leaders must have the resilience to overcome adversity.
[02:42:04] Resiliency is not only about toughness, but it's also about exuding positive energy that
[02:42:10] inspires others.
[02:42:13] Having a positive attitude is essential.
[02:42:15] We choose how we feel.
[02:42:17] We can choose to be happy or sad, angry or calm, upbeat or down.
[02:42:23] Organizations and teams take on the attitude and personality of their leaders.
[02:42:30] The attitudes of those on the team reflect the leaders attitude.
[02:42:35] If your team has a bad attitude, look in the mirror.
[02:42:44] Those are an example of just powerful leadership lessons that you have inside this book.
[02:42:53] Tone of other ones in there.
[02:42:56] I know we've been going for almost three hours right now.
[02:43:00] As I told you earlier, I consider you're a perspective on this stuff all day long.
[02:43:05] I'm not going to keep you as a prisoner here.
[02:43:12] General Gronsky, let's talk about where people can find you, what you're doing right now.
[02:43:16] I know you've got your consulting company.
[02:43:19] Tell us a little bit about that and where we can find you.
[02:43:21] The consulting company is leader, Grovell, L.C.
[02:43:24] Website, leader, Grove.com or John Gronsky.com.
[02:43:30] Both websites link to one another.
[02:43:32] I'm pretty active on Instagram, on Facebook, on Twitter, on LinkedIn.
[02:43:39] People could search for me there.
[02:43:43] Your Twitter is J.L. Gronsky.
[02:43:46] Your YouTube is John Gronsky.
[02:43:48] Your LinkedIn is John Gronsky.
[02:43:50] Your Facebook is John Gronsky leads.
[02:43:53] I didn't find your Instagram.
[02:43:54] You got an Instagram?
[02:43:55] John Gronsky leads.
[02:43:56] Is this Instagram?
[02:43:57] You're getting on the gram.
[02:43:58] It's echo, it's like the call it.
[02:44:01] That's where people can find you.
[02:44:03] You're available to speak.
[02:44:05] You're available to you consulting the whole nine years.
[02:44:08] I'm a professional speaker.
[02:44:10] I do leadership consulting.
[02:44:12] I have many different clients throughout the country.
[02:44:16] I love to do what I'm passionate about.
[02:44:18] Awesome.
[02:44:19] Echo.
[02:44:20] Yeah, something to do with you.
[02:44:23] So just so I know you said you listen to the podcast and I'm sure you know that Echo
[02:44:27] has been sitting here for three hours.
[02:44:30] Something caught his mind two hours and 32 minutes ago.
[02:44:35] He's been having this question.
[02:44:36] Bruin.
[02:44:37] You know what?
[02:44:38] But, but, Jaco, I don't want to be like the only person in the United States who
[02:44:42] doesn't listen to your podcast.
[02:44:43] Yes, I listen to your podcast.
[02:44:46] This is actually going to be super simple and easy.
[02:44:49] I think you mentioned something real quick and brief.
[02:44:53] The left seat, right seat.
[02:44:55] What is that in when you transition?
[02:44:57] Yeah.
[02:44:58] And when one brigade is getting right to leave and another brigade is coming in to take
[02:45:04] over that mission.
[02:45:06] The brigade that's getting ready to leave for the first, let's say for the first week,
[02:45:11] is in the left seat, which means they're still in a driver seat.
[02:45:14] They're still doing the mission.
[02:45:16] And the incoming brigade is observing in the right seat in the passenger seat.
[02:45:22] And then the following week, the brigade that is now newly taken to mission will be
[02:45:27] in the left seat or the driver seat in the brigade that's about to leave is in the right
[02:45:32] seat observing.
[02:45:33] And then once that is done, the brigade that was there is gone home in a beyond a
[02:45:39] swithia, Eko usually most units want that to be done as quickly as possible to be quite
[02:45:46] honest about it.
[02:45:47] Yeah.
[02:45:48] Maybe like feel like they're holding their hand or something like that.
[02:45:52] Like, oh, we got this already.
[02:45:53] I thought of it in terms of like, you know, how like with your kids, right?
[02:45:57] You want to you want to train them to do their own stuff, right?
[02:46:01] And just simplify it like that and having that to kind of like consider like the whole
[02:46:05] situation or whatever.
[02:46:07] I feel like that was kind of useful.
[02:46:08] Because I figured that's what it meant.
[02:46:09] You know, let's see driver seat passenger seat.
[02:46:12] After a certain amount of time when the passenger seat is like, yeah, I think I can drive.
[02:46:15] Well, that is kind of a way to train somebody.
[02:46:17] You know, first you do it and let them observe.
[02:46:20] No, first you tell them how to do it.
[02:46:22] Then you do it and have them observe.
[02:46:24] And then you have them do it and you observe.
[02:46:27] Yeah.
[02:46:28] And after all, you just kind of leave.
[02:46:29] Yeah.
[02:46:30] They got it.
[02:46:31] Yeah.
[02:46:32] So it works.
[02:46:33] My recommendation is you stay humble when you're getting the turnover from somebody.
[02:46:37] Yeah.
[02:46:38] And listen to what they say, you know, they know things you don't know.
[02:46:41] And it's actually crazy to me to think about trying to transfer knowledge.
[02:46:44] When the guys came into relief, relief, task in a bruiser inside Ramadi, I was trying
[02:46:50] to tell them, you know, we're all everyone in the chain of commands.
[02:46:53] Just trying to give them all this information because you know how hard it is.
[02:46:58] And you're just just trying to give them there's no possible way you can transfer them all
[02:47:04] the knowledge that you have and you're doing your best.
[02:47:06] So when you come into those situations as a leader, open up your mind, open up your brain,
[02:47:11] try and absorb what people are telling you.
[02:47:13] They look, they, you might have a different vision.
[02:47:16] It doesn't matter.
[02:47:17] Listen to what they say, have an open mind.
[02:47:22] You're getting any other, any final thoughts?
[02:47:26] You know, just one final thought, we, you know, we talked about the experience over there.
[02:47:30] And the final thought, I guess, is how important families are to everything we do.
[02:47:36] We can't do what we do without the support of our families.
[02:47:39] And I remember a senior leader telling me a number of years ago, you know, one of the
[02:47:45] army values is loyalty.
[02:47:48] And he said, when we talk about the army value of loyalty, it not only means loyalty to
[02:47:52] your unit, it also means being loyal to your family.
[02:47:57] And that really stuck with me because you don't, I, I didn't hear too many senior leaders
[02:48:01] talking about that up to that point.
[02:48:04] And so whenever I talk to soldiers after that, I always remind me, you got to be loyal
[02:48:07] to your family as well as to your unit.
[02:48:10] And that's, and I think that's very important.
[02:48:12] So I, I guess the final point is, we just got to be so thankful for the support.
[02:48:18] We have from our families, you know, whatever that family unit might look like because we
[02:48:23] can't do what we do without the support of others.
[02:48:27] I'm ended that.
[02:48:28] And once again, thank you so much for coming here today.
[02:48:33] Thank you for teaching all these great lessons about leadership and life.
[02:48:38] And of course, and obviously thank you for everything you did for America for 40 years
[02:48:45] of service and specifically thank you for what you did for the soldiers, sailors,
[02:48:52] airmen, and Marines that served with you in the Battle of Mody.
[02:48:57] You and your troops set conditions for victory.
[02:49:02] And the men of the two two eight will always be revered by the seals of Task Unit
[02:49:08] Bruser for guiding us in the combat and standing by our side on the battlefield.
[02:49:17] And we will never forget the sacrifice of those fallen heroes, those iron soldiers who gave
[02:49:27] their lives for us.
[02:49:31] Thank you for everything.
[02:49:33] Thank you, Jack.
[02:49:34] Julia and honor to be here with you.
[02:49:37] Love the message that you get out there and echo gets out there alongside you.
[02:49:42] Thanks.
[02:49:43] Thanks for those important leadership messages you got.
[02:49:47] You get out.
[02:49:48] I have to tell you, I did read extreme ownership and I loved every page of it.
[02:49:53] It's an excellent book and something that anyone who's interested in becoming a better
[02:49:58] leader could learn from.
[02:50:00] Thank you.
[02:50:01] Appreciate it.
[02:50:03] With that general, John Gronsky has left the building.
[02:50:09] Yes.
[02:50:10] Awesome, too.
[02:50:11] See you again and awesome to talk to him and awesome to get those lessons learned.
[02:50:19] Now they must be applied.
[02:50:21] Echo Charles, any lessons that you think we could apply, any things we could do to make
[02:50:28] ourselves better.
[02:50:29] Yes.
[02:50:30] Left seat, right?
[02:50:32] See.
[02:50:33] That's a very much so.
[02:50:34] Here's the thing it made sent.
[02:50:35] I wasn't confused as to what it was.
[02:50:38] Once you realize, all you're talking about the driver seat and the passenger seat, that's
[02:50:42] what you're talking about.
[02:50:45] How like when you're trying to train somebody up, which actually you talk about long
[02:50:49] to from a long time ago, I'm like, okay, cool, cool.
[02:50:53] When you're trying to do that, it's like, what's the best, I've got to be a good trainer
[02:50:57] and all this stuff that I worry about.
[02:50:59] I'm talking to my kids, I'm talking to my like various things.
[02:51:05] But that's a good, just simplistic way of keeping your mind wrapped around it.
[02:51:11] And actually in a way, meth a method, all just do it.
[02:51:14] You just watch.
[02:51:15] If you have questions, ask, all you're going to walk myself through it while I'm doing
[02:51:18] it, teach my daughter how to make rice or I did like a year ago, whatever.
[02:51:23] And yeah, I'm just walking through it and I actually did that.
[02:51:26] The whole front seat, I'm not fancy.
[02:51:28] I'm like, uh, left seat, right seat.
[02:51:30] You know, did it?
[02:51:31] It said boom, this is how many cups of water, boom, this is how many cups of rice.
[02:51:34] You do it and she's just listening.
[02:51:36] So you do it, so I do it.
[02:51:37] It's walker through it, but I do it.
[02:51:40] Do it again.
[02:51:41] Do it again.
[02:51:42] You know, the same day I'm just saying day after day.
[02:51:44] And then after while you're like, okay, let's switch seats.
[02:51:48] But I'm in the front time in the passenger seat, right?
[02:51:50] Still offering, you know, tips or whatever.
[02:51:53] Worked.
[02:51:54] We're good too.
[02:51:56] Tips on making rice.
[02:51:57] Well, that's a mess.
[02:51:58] We're a mess, sir.
[02:51:59] Without a rice maker.
[02:52:00] Anyway, everybody has a rice and we just put the rice in the water, you press the button.
[02:52:04] It's good.
[02:52:05] You press the what?
[02:52:06] You press the button.
[02:52:08] Easy money.
[02:52:09] Either way.
[02:52:11] Rice.
[02:52:12] No rice.
[02:52:13] Whatever.
[02:52:14] This is what we're gonna do.
[02:52:16] supplementation.
[02:52:17] Let me go deep on this right now.
[02:52:18] Okay.
[02:52:19] So I was up on the the Joe Rogan podcast.
[02:52:22] Yes.
[02:52:23] I got to COVID-19 test.
[02:52:25] Yes.
[02:52:26] there.
[02:52:27] When I got the test, the doctor came, a doctor came to give me the test.
[02:52:33] He came to test.
[02:52:34] He prick my finger.
[02:52:35] We had to wait 15 minutes.
[02:52:36] And to body test though, to be specific.
[02:52:38] Yes, to find out if I've had this.
[02:52:41] If I developed this, he knew, you know, I was telling him, hey, look, I went to Seattle
[02:52:46] and went to New York.
[02:52:47] I went to San Francisco.
[02:52:48] I went to LA.
[02:52:50] I mean, I was in the hot zones.
[02:52:52] I was at Ground Zero for COVID at the end of January.
[02:52:56] On planes everywhere.
[02:52:59] He and kept traveling.
[02:53:02] I stopped traveling March 14th, I think.
[02:53:07] I was traveling in airplanes all over the place.
[02:53:12] I did not have the antibodies.
[02:53:16] And what he said was, with the amount of travel and done in the amount of exposure
[02:53:20] I've been exposed to it.
[02:53:22] He said sometimes people's immune systems are strong to the point where it doesn't even
[02:53:27] register.
[02:53:29] This little COVID-19 rolls in and it just gets crushed.
[02:53:33] So immune system, two things.
[02:53:37] Look, vitamin D3, which I take, joccal fuel, D3, I take it.
[02:53:44] I take it every day.
[02:53:45] As a matter of fact, I take more than recommended dose for whatever reason I take one
[02:53:48] of the morning, I take one of the night.
[02:53:50] I take cold war, which is all those immune supplementations.
[02:53:55] And for some reason, look, I'm healthy.
[02:53:57] Yes, I eat good.
[02:53:59] Yes, why not just kick it up.
[02:54:01] So who knows?
[02:54:02] Who knows?
[02:54:03] I'm just saying maybe not a coincidence.
[02:54:07] Like you heard what a rendez-doctor around a potchip said, right, on Joe's podcast, talking
[02:54:12] about vitamin D. And how helpful it is, how it helps with that.
[02:54:17] I take that religiously.
[02:54:21] I take the cold war religiously.
[02:54:24] And also, I'm in all these horrible places.
[02:54:26] And I'm just COVID-free, no factor.
[02:54:28] I'm just saying, hey, look, can I make a claim that these supplements will stop
[02:54:36] COVID-19?
[02:54:37] No, I can't make that claim, but I can tell you a little story.
[02:54:42] So anyways, look, those are the facts.
[02:54:45] Like a lot of exposure, no COVID-19.
[02:54:48] No, and oh, by the way, we're doing jujitsu at the office.
[02:54:51] I mean, it's crazy.
[02:54:53] What I expose my immune system to, no factor.
[02:54:56] What?
[02:54:57] COVID-1?
[02:54:58] Yeah, no.
[02:54:59] Try those out.
[02:55:00] That is crazy because even when you think about your, it's not like you're, let's say,
[02:55:06] a singer, or whatever you're putting on concert singing into the microphone, sign a few
[02:55:11] autographs, even a bunch of autographs.
[02:55:13] I just, I'm shaking a thousand people's heads.
[02:55:16] I'm hugging a bunch of people.
[02:55:18] It's crazy.
[02:55:19] Oh, yeah.
[02:55:20] Yeah, shaking everyone's heads.
[02:55:21] So you can everything.
[02:55:22] Everyone's having conversations with them.
[02:55:23] Basically, same conversations with them, like telling me a secret about something.
[02:55:27] They're in my face.
[02:55:29] When they started the whole social distancing, that became an actual, like, where
[02:55:33] it or whatever, the number one thing, handshakes.
[02:55:37] Number one thing.
[02:55:38] Oh, yeah.
[02:55:39] And you're doing that to everybody, different lines of people.
[02:55:42] That from all over the country.
[02:55:44] By the way, when I went to those cities, there was, you know, whatever percentage of the
[02:55:48] audience they didn't, they weren't from DC.
[02:55:50] They weren't from New York.
[02:55:51] They drove there from wherever else.
[02:55:53] So you got this massive cesspool of bacteria.
[02:55:57] And I'm just all up in it.
[02:56:01] But I got that D.
[02:56:02] Yeah, sure.
[02:56:04] Hey, man.
[02:56:05] So your body was just like, hey, we don't, we don't need antibodies for their little
[02:56:08] lot.
[02:56:09] It's kind of like, you know, when you're in a, like, I don't know, maybe the police
[02:56:13] forces or something like that, where it's like, hey, we have the situation, then the police
[02:56:16] force like mounts up and they're like, okay, what's the situation?
[02:56:19] Then they say the situation, they're like, oh, no, we don't need all these guys.
[02:56:22] It was like, bro, San Fred from the front.
[02:56:24] That's good.
[02:56:25] Whatever.
[02:56:26] He's got that.
[02:56:27] Don't stand the business, you know?
[02:56:28] Whatever.
[02:56:29] So that's what happened.
[02:56:30] Interesting.
[02:56:31] Oh, yeah, the Cold War is there too.
[02:56:32] Also disciplined.
[02:56:33] Mm-hmm.
[02:56:34] Just when go.
[02:56:35] This helps your brain.
[02:56:36] You know, so if you want to figure out how you did or did not get
[02:56:39] to go in 1980, you figured out better, I guess.
[02:56:41] What the, this thing.
[02:56:42] Yeah.
[02:56:43] You might need some protein, get some milk, your kids might need protein, get some
[02:56:47] or your kid, milk.
[02:56:50] You might need some ready to drink cans, which I've been drinking today.
[02:56:53] You're dumb.
[02:56:54] Plus you can get this stuff at origin main.com.
[02:56:59] You can also get it at the vitamin shop.
[02:57:02] It's certainly right.
[02:57:04] Yeah.
[02:57:05] Also at origin main.com, get some cool, you just stuff.
[02:57:07] Yeah.
[02:57:10] Yeah.
[02:57:11] On there.
[02:57:12] Also jeans, American-made denim.
[02:57:14] American-made denim.
[02:57:15] Not the kind you go down to wherever and get them sewn and bleached and
[02:57:21] do they bleached jeans?
[02:57:22] Yeah, sometimes.
[02:57:23] Sometimes.
[02:57:24] Or acid washed.
[02:57:25] Yeah, I do.
[02:57:26] Yeah, it's old.
[02:57:27] Or, you know, distressed or whatever, because you know, they distressed
[02:57:30] the jeans.
[02:57:31] Yeah.
[02:57:32] In the back of the night.
[02:57:33] Our stuff looked like someone's lived in them.
[02:57:35] Yeah, like someone's been living in them.
[02:57:36] Yeah, like someone did something called
[02:57:37] and by the way, it's so obvious when you see those pre- what do they call that?
[02:57:42] I don't know.
[02:57:43] No, there's a word.
[02:57:44] Distressed.
[02:57:45] Yeah, like pre-distressed.
[02:57:47] Geavacery distressed.
[02:57:48] D-dressed.
[02:57:49] You know, man.
[02:57:50] Yeah, and then ship them over and then, you know, then, hey, you know,
[02:57:54] here's some jeans, which, you know, I don't know.
[02:57:57] It's not that.
[02:57:58] It's what I'm saying.
[02:57:59] Yeah.
[02:58:00] All-made in America.
[02:58:01] The actual denim-made in America.
[02:58:02] Also, we got boots.
[02:58:06] The shorts of art.
[02:58:07] Yeah.
[02:58:08] It was a recording, too.
[02:58:09] I've got a lot of clothes.
[02:58:10] I've got a lot of clothes.
[02:58:11] I've got a lot of clothes.
[02:58:12] Yeah.
[02:58:13] Order those.
[02:58:14] Get what you need, man.
[02:58:15] We're there.
[02:58:16] And we're making everything that we're talking about in America.
[02:58:18] That's what we're doing.
[02:58:19] That's how we're doing it.
[02:58:21] Also, Jack was a store.
[02:58:23] We have a store online store.
[02:58:25] Jack was a store.
[02:58:26] Docom is where you can get your discipline equals freedom.
[02:58:30] Hoodies.
[02:58:32] T-shirts.
[02:58:33] Rashcards.
[02:58:34] Hats.
[02:58:35] Women's stuff on there as well.
[02:58:37] Taint-tops.
[02:58:38] It's shirts.
[02:58:39] One nut.
[02:58:40] That's if you want to represent.
[02:58:41] While you're on the path.
[02:58:42] True.
[02:58:43] Very nice.
[02:58:44] Very nice.
[02:58:45] I could not have said it better.
[02:58:46] That is true.
[02:58:47] Also, on Jockel Store.
[02:58:49] We haven't email list.
[02:58:51] I'm not going to use anyone's email ever, ever in my whole life, ever.
[02:58:55] Straight up.
[02:58:56] I'm making that proclamation right now.
[02:58:58] Okay.
[02:58:59] But if you sign up.
[02:59:00] If you want to sign up for our email list.
[02:59:04] When I say, are email lists.
[02:59:06] It's like mining jocgos.
[02:59:08] Those are the only people we're going to email you.
[02:59:11] Straight up.
[02:59:12] So if you want to sign up for this.
[02:59:13] It's mainly going to be store stuff.
[02:59:16] Like, and not like everyday emailing you.
[02:59:19] Oh, we changed the color of our website.
[02:59:21] Brad, I don't, I don't email that can stuff.
[02:59:23] Because I don't think anyone will ever care about that stuff.
[02:59:25] Only if there's like a new design.
[02:59:27] Or, yeah, that's pretty much.
[02:59:29] So maybe like once I'm, I don't know.
[02:59:31] It's not very often.
[02:59:32] But I'm going to put extensive effort into making it.
[02:59:37] Stuff that I really believe that it is worth sending out.
[02:59:40] Seems like worth receiving worth opening up as an email.
[02:59:43] You're making me want to sign up for your email list.
[02:59:46] Just so I can make it.
[02:59:47] Just so I can police you to make sure you're not sending out stuff that you shouldn't be sending out.
[02:59:51] Good.
[02:59:52] I should be.
[02:59:53] No, I'm saying if I was a listener because I am on the email list.
[02:59:55] But if I was just a listener out there in the world, I might go.
[02:59:58] Echo's making a claim.
[03:00:00] Yeah.
[03:00:01] Good.
[03:00:02] I think that that's a good thing to do.
[03:00:04] I would go send a lame email.
[03:00:07] Let me know.
[03:00:08] Respond to it and just say, hey, this was a lame email.
[03:00:12] So maybe check next time you're saying, maybe like, you know, confirm it or something.
[03:00:17] You know, give it a once over.
[03:00:18] I don't know.
[03:00:19] But nonetheless, for real, I respect the inbox.
[03:00:23] Check.
[03:00:24] Also, we got a podcast right now that you're listening to.
[03:00:26] If you want to, you can subscribe to it.
[03:00:28] If you want to, you can leave a review.
[03:00:30] We also have some other podcasts.
[03:00:32] We got the thread that I'm still working on in the name change.
[03:00:34] Every good name I think of is kind of taken some bummed out.
[03:00:37] We have the grounded podcast.
[03:00:39] What's about you?
[03:00:40] You, jitsu and life.
[03:00:41] We got the warrior kid podcast for your warrior kids.
[03:00:43] We also have a warrior kid soap from Irish Oaks Ranch.com.
[03:00:45] It's also available where on the jockel store dot com.
[03:00:49] Young, eight, making soap building a business.
[03:00:52] Who here was building a business when they were 12 years old.
[03:00:55] Now he's older now.
[03:00:56] But he started that business.
[03:00:57] We were 12 credit.
[03:01:00] Don't forget that we have a YouTube channel.
[03:01:03] And at some point, aquatrawl is going to start putting
[03:01:07] Easter eggs of special effects into the YouTube version of this podcast.
[03:01:14] Maybe a little sound effect and maybe an explosion.
[03:01:17] So good opportunity today.
[03:01:19] Well, the technically those are Easter eggs.
[03:01:22] Okay. What are they?
[03:01:24] I'm the effects. Okay. Well, he's not just sound effects visual effects.
[03:01:28] Maybe some smoke, maybe some fire.
[03:01:30] Maybe some explosions.
[03:01:31] It's funny that you get you make a four minute video.
[03:01:35] And you show 97 explosions, but you do a three hour video and there's nothing in it.
[03:01:40] What do you think people think of that?
[03:01:42] I think explosions have their place in the world.
[03:01:45] You know, and I do too.
[03:01:47] Well, we'll have varying levels of agreement on that whole topic.
[03:01:52] Don't think people would, okay.
[03:01:54] Do you think you think watching a three hour YouTube video is boring?
[03:01:57] Do you and me talking?
[03:02:00] Do you think that might be boring to someone visually?
[03:02:03] Three hours.
[03:02:04] Well, visually boring and boring are two different things.
[03:02:08] I said visually boring.
[03:02:09] Yes or no.
[03:02:10] I can see yes or no.
[03:02:13] If put it this way, well, it's not a yes or no question.
[03:02:16] It is a yes or no question.
[03:02:17] Is it boring to watch three hours of a video of two humans in a black room talking to each other?
[03:02:22] Yes or no?
[03:02:23] Not a yes or no.
[03:02:24] No question.
[03:02:25] It depends with the humans.
[03:02:26] Okay.
[03:02:27] It depends with the talk about politician.
[03:02:28] No.
[03:02:29] We gotta get, you gotta understand.
[03:02:32] Okay.
[03:02:33] Well, let's say it was some subject like someone trying to explain how to cook rice.
[03:02:37] Do you think that might get boring?
[03:02:39] Now, if the rice cooker was blowy,
[03:02:46] I think that would be good.
[03:02:47] Okay.
[03:02:48] People would be stoked.
[03:02:49] I understand.
[03:02:50] If you see where I'm coming from.
[03:02:52] Okay.
[03:02:53] I understand.
[03:02:54] Anyway.
[03:02:55] Yes.
[03:02:56] Subscribe to the YouTube channel.
[03:02:58] Subscribe to the YouTube channel.
[03:03:00] If you want to see that, in echo does make other enhanced videos.
[03:03:03] And if you want to see stuff blow up, you can see it there.
[03:03:05] If you want to see if you want to be bored, then you can watch the four hour podcast.
[03:03:11] It's not boring.
[03:03:13] How about that?
[03:03:14] Okay.
[03:03:15] I'm going to say, visually boring.
[03:03:17] Anyway, psychological warfare.
[03:03:19] Psychological warfare.
[03:03:20] If you're having a moment of weakness, which we all do had one the other day.
[03:03:23] Powered through it.
[03:03:24] By the way.
[03:03:25] What was it?
[03:03:26] Wait, I didn't want to go.
[03:03:28] I didn't feel like it.
[03:03:29] Freaking didn't feel like it.
[03:03:30] But this was like next level didn't feel like it.
[03:03:33] The kind where, you know, the kind where you don't feel like it's so hard for where you're like.
[03:03:37] Man, something might be like wrong with me.
[03:03:39] Like by my physical allergy.
[03:03:41] You know, I wasn't feeling physically weakness, certainly.
[03:03:43] But I was just like, maybe like something's going on.
[03:03:45] Maybe it's like actual like burnout, you know, that deal.
[03:03:49] The only the when I do 20 rep squats, heavy.
[03:03:54] Sometimes while I'm doing them, I'm thinking to myself, I don't care.
[03:03:58] I don't care.
[03:03:59] I don't care if I'm in shape.
[03:04:03] Whatever I'm doing right now, I just, I would rather be watching TV.
[03:04:06] I just want to stop this.
[03:04:07] And that's right.
[03:04:08] That's a bad thing.
[03:04:09] Watch out for that.
[03:04:10] Yeah.
[03:04:11] So the point is, then I get mad about that.
[03:04:13] And then I do.
[03:04:14] Bro, I use that because you and Joe Rogan were talking about that.
[03:04:17] How you like get mad at yourself.
[03:04:19] And here's the thing that it's easy to be like,
[03:04:22] Oh, that's a good thing.
[03:04:23] I'm going to try that.
[03:04:24] But if you don't genuinely get mad at yourself, it totally doesn't work.
[03:04:27] Like you can kind of get mad at yourself or maybe feel guilty later.
[03:04:30] But that's different.
[03:04:31] That's not the same thing.
[03:04:32] If you're for real mad at yourself that you literally deserve punishment.
[03:04:36] Immediately.
[03:04:37] Like right now for your ways.
[03:04:40] Load up the bar.
[03:04:41] Yep.
[03:04:42] Exactly.
[03:04:43] Or the bar and get under there and get something.
[03:04:44] Man, if you can get there, if you can pull it off mentally,
[03:04:46] very, very helpful.
[03:04:48] By the way, but let's say you can't, let's say you can't.
[03:04:51] Guess what?
[03:04:52] Psychological warfare.
[03:04:53] Boom.
[03:04:54] Listen to Jockel.
[03:04:54] He'll tell you.
[03:04:55] Pragatically.
[03:04:56] If you practical ways to think, be like, oh yeah.
[03:04:58] Wait, why should I, no, I shouldn't skip this.
[03:05:00] Where I should actually do this workout.
[03:05:01] Get yourself through that moment of weakness.
[03:05:03] You know.
[03:05:04] Also, if you want to get a visual.
[03:05:06] Little reminder of what you should be doing.
[03:05:08] And then check out FootSideCanVist.com.
[03:05:10] My brother Dakota Meyer.
[03:05:13] Making those.
[03:05:14] Making things you can hang on your wall.
[03:05:16] That will snap your brain into place a little bit.
[03:05:20] Also, we got some books.
[03:05:22] Obviously, the book that we talked about today, the ride of our lives by John Gronsky.
[03:05:29] We got the code.
[03:05:30] The evaluation in the protocols.
[03:05:33] Check that one out.
[03:05:35] We got leadership strategy and tactics field manual.
[03:05:37] We got way the warrior kid, one, two, and three.
[03:05:39] We got Mikey in the Dragons.
[03:05:41] Apparently, which is the best little kids book that's ever been written.
[03:05:45] A lot of people are saying.
[03:05:47] Discipline.
[03:05:49] It was freedom field manual.
[03:05:51] Imagine that.
[03:05:53] A field manual on discipline.
[03:05:56] And then extreme ownership.
[03:05:58] And that I caught a new leadership, which I wrote with my brother, Dave Fabin.
[03:06:02] Also have Eshelon front, which is my leadership consultancy, where we solve problems through
[03:06:06] leadership.
[03:06:07] Go to Eshelonfront.com.
[03:06:08] If you have any issues, get a problem in your company.
[03:06:11] Their leadership problems.
[03:06:14] 100% think about what I just said.
[03:06:17] 100%.
[03:06:18] You do not have any problems.
[03:06:20] I don't leadership problems.
[03:06:21] If you don't believe me, go to Eshelonfront.com.
[03:06:23] We'll come and show you what's up.
[03:06:25] EF Online.
[03:06:26] This is our online leadership training.
[03:06:30] It's not just training.
[03:06:32] It's us.
[03:06:33] It's me.
[03:06:34] We'll talk to me.
[03:06:35] Go to eF Online.com and come to one of the multiple, per week live interactive webinars that
[03:06:43] I'm doing right now with the rest of the Eshelonfront team.
[03:06:46] Go to eF Online.com.
[03:06:48] All kinds of good stuff on there.
[03:06:50] Unbelievable community, brigade of people and they're getting after it.
[03:06:54] Also, the master live event.
[03:06:58] We're doing the next one in Phoenix, Arizona, September 16th and 17th.
[03:07:03] We're doing the next one in Phoenix, December 13th and 14th.
[03:07:06] Go to extreme ownership.com for details.
[03:07:08] And look, we might have to adapt when it comes to social distancing and whatever else we got to do to pull these things off.
[03:07:15] So the amount of seats that we have available might be smaller than what would normally be available.
[03:07:21] So if you want to come to the master, then get signed up now.
[03:07:27] Because we've sold out everything even with all the capacity being used.
[03:07:32] Go to extreme ownership.com to do that.
[03:07:34] We have EF Overwatch.
[03:07:36] If you or your company, you need experience leaders in your company that understand the principles we talk about.
[03:07:42] Go to eF Overwatch.com to find the people you're looking for.
[03:07:47] And don't forget about America's mighty warriors dot org.
[03:07:53] Mom, Emily, Mark Lee's mom. She's out there. She is on a mission to help service members active duty.
[03:08:02] Retired folks that just got out.
[03:08:05] Help them help their families.
[03:08:07] Help gold star families around the world.
[03:08:09] If you want to participate in that, if you want to donate, if you want to get involved, go to america's mighty warriors dot org.
[03:08:16] And if you haven't had enough of my tedious talking.
[03:08:22] Or you need more of echoes, ridiculous rants.
[03:08:27] Then you can find us on the inner webs.
[03:08:31] Twitter, Instagram, and on Facebook.
[03:08:33] Echo is at Echo Charles and I am at Jocca Willink.
[03:08:35] And once again, thanks to General Gronsky for coming on.
[03:08:39] And thanks to everyone in the military for your service.
[03:08:43] Especially those, yes, especially those.
[03:08:45] Those iron soldiers of the second brigade, 28th Infantry Division.
[03:08:51] For your service and your sacrifice in the battle or money.
[03:08:55] We'll never forget you guys.
[03:08:57] We'll never forget your fallen brothers.
[03:09:00] And to the police and the law enforcement out there.
[03:09:04] And I'll throw a special little shout out to Timothy Gronsky, Pennsylvania State Police Trooper.
[03:09:11] General Gronsky's son.
[03:09:14] To all of you out there and then also firefighters, paramedics, EMTs, dispatchers,
[03:09:21] correctional officers, board patrol, secret service.
[03:09:24] You're doing all that hard work out there, getting very little support.
[03:09:28] We'll just remember that there are a lot of people that know what you do.
[03:09:31] Know the risks that you take and know how many people you help.
[03:09:37] Then everyone else out there, we do not know everything.
[03:09:44] We do not win every time we all make mistakes.
[03:09:50] Learn from them.
[03:09:54] Learn from them and get better.
[03:09:57] Then get back on the path and of course get after it.
[03:10:05] And until next time, this is Echo and Jockel.
[03:10:09] Out.