Jocko Podcast 234: How to WIN Using Your Mind Rather Than Brute Force. Counter-Insurgency. FM 3-24

2020-06-17T21:42:27Z

Join the conversation on Twitter/Instagram: @jockowillink @echocharles 0:00:00 - Opening. 0:09:39 - Counter Insurgency Manual. FM 3-24 1:50:57 - Final thoughts and take-aways. 1:55:35 - How to stay on THE PATH. 2:21:07 - Closing Gratitude.

AI summary of episode

It's weird how like to hear it, you know, because you know, you get whether it be reports or like, you just heard from someone someone who has a different, I don't want to say agenda necessarily, but, you know, like if someone's against the war or something, like that's kind of their, their deal, you know, so they're kind of trying to input, not input. And I think that was the whole thing about Gigi to begin with, like, I'll help, you know, Haley Gracie's, you know, smaller guy, you know, and he lets that, you know, he can put himself in safe position, positioning tape, minimize damage, all this stuff, and then like, I get's all tired, and then he can use his, you know, leverage or whatever. It's kind of that's part of the workout too, you know, so it's like it's almost like it's you're doing a specific thing to your body there too, you know, so it's like that fits, you know, you don't have to have rest periods. It was like, it wasn't a documentary, but you know, the kind of words like on like discovery, or one of these, and then they, they propose like, what if this happened? But, yeah, you don't kind of, you know, I kind of like, within a lot, lock my hands and I kind of sat there and I'm like, you know, and even he knows it. Do you, do you ever do like little slie things like, and I guess I shouldn't say, slie because you know how like if you're really trying to ask this question, but you can't just come out and ask that question because you can't expect them to just come out and give you that straight dope answer. Everyone else is just, you know, just trying to live a life and do the right thing and feels, you know, consider things sort of as a group, you know, like all pretty much the same. And the way I always explain Iraqi families, I'm like, oh, you wanted to know an Iraqi family is like, they're like a family. Seems like showing me the benefits, you know, of like skipping the workout, but that's kind of evil in a way, you know. So I was like, but that expectation that it's actually him emailing you being like, Hey, great to meet you or something like this, you know? So it's like one of those, you know, if you're illegitimate, that tends to be like what it looks like. You know, like, everyone's in a lot of like, you'll get a situation where, I don't know. But it was like a promo, like advertisement for this cool, like club kind of thing. I, I really, it wasn't Ireland, I don't think, I don't know, it was somewhere where you get like criminals, bad criminals, murders, like rapists type, guys or whatever, and the in jail, and it's not even called jail, I don't think. He goes to this place where he gets pets, he gets, um, he can hang with girls, he can, he can make friends, he gets, like, um, he learns, like, stuff, skills, and stuff like that. I signed up for Sam Harris's email list, but it was, happened to be at the same time where I sort of like, met him in sort of like, no, and then I seen it like from Sam Harris. No, I get it, but I get, you know, quite a few friends like that, you know, where, and you know, I don't, I'm not a big communicator. oh my gosh, it solves like a bunch of their problems and make some super, you know, it's like that kind of situation. Like you can tell someone's reaction when they're reacting to this detail, where it's like, oh, bad, you're like, I see what you're doing. So it's like I was wondering that like I wonder if, then I was like, first I was wondering, I wonder if I could do Jockel's and I was, then I was thinking, I wonder if he could do mine? And what sucks is from a psychological standpoint, like if you and I are going to train you, you're going to train you, you know that I'm just a guy that's just going to go protract it. So it like solidifies the like enemy, like that's the enemy versus us. Not just used, but it's used as like this weird kind of way to answer any questions and say, any questions and circular arguments and always comes back to these things and you're like, well, this is getting kind of funky over here. It's almost like it feels like justice or something like that. So now it's like, you know, I spent like three or four hours finishing the reading, looking a couple things up You know, like you always wonder like, I wonder if I could do that guy's workout. But it's the exact metaphor, though, you know, like where if like aliens are coming over, whether it be to take over or to get some alien job done. I remember in football, there's like, okay, so you know when you, okay, in football, you say, you know, you say what's called a cadence, you say set down hot or go or whatever, the quarterback says it whatever. When you say they understand collateral damage, just kind of like, the way you said is almost like, and which is actually correct from my perspective, where it sounds obvious, everyone understands collateral damage. You know, like, everyone kind of understands that, you know, Yeah, just like you said, where you, where it's like, yeah, the brother got killed. How, you know, like there's a show called What If Humans Disappeared, or something like that. So when he does, it's like it's almost like a feeling of satisfaction, you know? It's kind of like, you know, oh, maybe they're just people that imagine if they just didn't even have the concept of violence, right? Like on the district, you know, something like that?

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Episode transcript

[00:00:00] This is Jocco podcast number 234 with echo Charles and me, Jocco Willink. Good evening, echo. Good evening.
[00:00:07] So I was working with some echelon front clients the other day talking about leadership.
[00:00:17] And I was talking about the minimum use of force. Have you heard that phrase before?
[00:00:23] Yes, that's the half.
[00:00:24] So we talk about it from sort of a combatives, a tactical perspective, but I was talking about it from a leadership perspective.
[00:00:33] Meaning that you want to lead.
[00:00:37] You want to lead most of the time with a minimum use of force.
[00:00:42] So I want to do as little as I can to make you do what I want you to do. That's a good rule of thumb to lead with.
[00:00:51] I was also thinking and this is you might, I don't know if you're going to find this funny, you might.
[00:00:57] I was thinking about leaders being legit.
[00:01:00] Have you noticed I used the term legit?
[00:01:03] Yes, I used it more now.
[00:01:05] You've acquired it.
[00:01:07] I've acquired it, yes.
[00:01:08] And we know what it means, right?
[00:01:10] We use the term to mean like that's cool, but it's a little bit stronger, right?
[00:01:18] And it means kind of approved.
[00:01:21] But then I was thinking about the source of that word, legitimate, because once again, I was talking about leaders being legit and actually beyond that,
[00:01:32] leaders being legitimate leaders, think about that, right?
[00:01:36] Think about the difference in your mind when you think of a legitimate leader or someone that's an illegitimate leader.
[00:01:43] There's a huge difference because when a leader is viewed as illegitimate, then they're not respected.
[00:01:51] They're not listened to. If someone gets put new position, because they're the boss's favorite or because they backstab someone, right to get into that, to get that promotion,
[00:02:03] they're not going to be considered legitimate, a legitimate leader and that hurts their ability to lead.
[00:02:12] So as I was thinking about these two things, the men are a mucyphorce and legitimacy.
[00:02:18] And I recognize both those thoughts in my head from the counter insurgency manual, FM3, tact 24.
[00:02:28] Now, here's a little history behind this manual.
[00:02:32] When I arrived in Ramadi, this is the manual that I read when I arrived in Ramadi.
[00:02:37] So what happened was I arrived in Ramadi, I went to an intel briefing, during the intel briefing, there was this massive link diagram of all these bad guys, a bunch of them connected, how they were connected, who they were connected to.
[00:02:48] Some of the bad guys have little slat red slashes through them, maybe killed or a little green slash through them, they've been captured.
[00:02:55] But the thing is this massive link diagram didn't really look all that much different as the link diagram that I had left in Baghdad two and a half years prior.
[00:03:04] So in my mind, I kind of realized, wait a second, of course, still doing the same thing and things don't really look all that different, this isn't good and well it seems like we're losing.
[00:03:18] So I don't know what necessarily thing triggered my brain to go and read the counter insurgency manual.
[00:03:27] I must have seen something I used to read all these and still do, I'd read these sort of military websites and military news and those kind of things and somewhere in there, I had seen that this new, this new field manual is coming out.
[00:03:47] I've been written by General Patreus and General Matas, both of those guys need no introduction, both incredible leaders, very, very well known inside the military when I was in and now both of them are well known outside the military.
[00:04:07] Reading this, so I went and googled it on the regular internet and so now this is like May, yeah, this is May of 2006.
[00:04:19] And I'm trying to remember, I don't think I saw the whole completed manual.
[00:04:25] I think I saw, I think I saw chapters of it and I did a little research and it turns out that they did, they had sort of assembled the initial chapters and released them as quick as they could just to get this information out there.
[00:04:41] And when I read it, it definitely shaped the way I thought about the battle of Ramadi. It shaped the way that tasked you to bruiser could operate in the battle of Ramadi and really ended up shaping the way I think about a lot of different things about leadership and business and the teams and and life.
[00:05:06] And so I actually dug around the internet and I found one of these early versions. So one of the versions that I found of this, it's it says on it FM3, tech 24.
[00:05:18] And it's June 2006. That's when this, this is the final draft. So I think I think the thing I read was probably just a little bit earlier, probably one of the few chapters released and also.
[00:05:31] When I read that I read what I read and again, I wish I remembered it better. What I read I read the whole thing and when you see the whole manual, it's 250 pages and there's a lot of stuff that gets into stuff that wouldn't have been as pertinent to where I was and what I was doing.
[00:05:47] So I think I probably saw the first two or three chapters of this and I absolutely know for a fact, I saw the first chapter, which is what I want to dive into today. Now this is this is what made me want to dive into because it believe me.
[00:06:03] This is one of the first manuals that I wanted to cover. I said, oh, you know, I should cover the field. I should cover the counter and surgery field, man. We should go and read that.
[00:06:10] Well, here's the deal. It is a huge manual, right? And a lot of it digs into the weeds and kind of gets really granular on, you know, how you do logistics inside it. So there's a lot of really deep, not deep's not the right word. There's a lot of very tactical techniques that you're going to use to make things happen inside of a counter insurgency.
[00:06:34] But what I find fascinating about this is the way that it relates to absolutely everything, especially from a leadership perspective, especially from a leadership perspective, because you start thinking about things. You're thinking about the way the world is formulated.
[00:06:53] And if you think about it from an insurgency and that counter insurgency perspective, you start to see things much clearer. And the reason is because let's face it. If you, if you want to take a look at things, you want to say, oh, war is comparable to everything, right? Everything is comparable to war. Could, is it possible to say that?
[00:07:14] Okay. Well, it's possible to say that. But if you don't include insurgency in that and counter insurgency in that, look war is not always, especially in business, especially inside inside of a business inside of a team.
[00:07:30] Is it really a war when, you know, I'm trying to get some of one of my subordinate teams to do what my other subordinate team is doing? And they're giving me resistance. Is that war? Is that an all-out war? Not really.
[00:07:44] It's more like an insurgency. And what I've got to do, I can't just go to war with them. If I go to war with them, I'm going to destroy them. That's the goal of war. Insurgency means I'm going to form relationships. I'm going to bring people on board. I'm going to get rid of the people that are bad actors. Like it's a totally different, much more nuanced thing. And that's what allows you when you can put, when you can look at things through the prism of insurgency encounter insurgency, it gives you, it will give you some,
[00:08:12] it will give you some visibility on how to handle situations. So it's real easy to say, we're at war with our competitor. Okay, I get that. We're at war with our competitor. We're going to go to war with our competitor. We're going to go to war with this other team.
[00:08:30] But when you say, hey, we've got people inside of our own organization that don't agree with what we're doing. All of a sudden it takes on a totally different meaning. Because if you go to war with them, what do you do? You destroy them. Can you, can you effectively and perfectly destroy only the things that you want in a war? No. War means there's going to be collateral damage. Means people are going to, you know, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, not really he thing.
[00:08:59] So, but insurgency and counter insurgency is more nuanced. It takes more. You have to use a scalpel instead of using a battle axe, right? That's what you're doing.
[00:09:12] And so when you start seeing things as an insurgency and acting as if you're utilizing counter insurgency procedures to try and solve that problem, it's a much more accurate way of saying, hey.
[00:09:27] Everything in life is comparable to war.
[00:09:31] Okay. Everything in life, compared to war, maybe, but that's not what I'm saying. What I'm saying is this allows you to make much better analogies like that.
[00:09:46] I'm not saying there's perfect. I'm not saying everything in life is war. No. This allows you if there's a war analogy, if there's a war metaphor there, if there's things to be learned from war,
[00:09:56] you have to learn from the insurgency and counter insurgency mindset. So, let's get into this.
[00:10:04] And I want to make sure that I kind of point some of this stuff out as we go through.
[00:10:10] So here's the forward. This manual is designed to fill a doctrinal gap. It's been 20 years since the US Army published a manual devoted to counter insurgency operations at 25 since their Marine Corps published its last manual.
[00:10:22] With our soldiers and Marines fighting insurgency in both Afghanistan and Iraq, it is thus essential that we give them a manual that provides principles and guidelines for counter insurgency operations. And they call that coin.
[00:10:35] Such guidance must be grounded in historical studies. However, it must be informed by contemporary experiences. So what's cool about this is,
[00:10:42] and they reference the counter insurgency and the insurgency in Iraq in 2005, like that's how up to date this thing was. And they were trying to get this information out there as quick as they could.
[00:10:55] This manual takes a general approach to coin. The Army and Marine Corps recognize that every insurgency is contextual and presents its own set of challenges. So guess what?
[00:11:05] Every little disagreement that you have inside your team has its own little contextual things that are happening in its own set of challenges. So you have to be able to adapt to that.
[00:11:15] You cannot fight former Saddamists and Islamic extremists the same way you would fight the Viet Kong, the Moros, which is a Philippine,
[00:11:25] what's called in Surgeon Group, or the Tupamaro's, which was a year away, the application of principles and fundamentals to deal with each very considerably.
[00:11:38] It goes on to say that nonetheless there's common characteristics of insurgencies. It says, a counter insurgency campaign is, as described in this manual, a mix of offense, defense, and stability operations conducted along multiple lines of operations. So that right there.
[00:11:58] If you take that little thing right there into your mindset because if we just say we're going to war, what does that mean? It means optimally we're just going on offense.
[00:12:10] Maybe we say we're going to go off and put what we have to go on defense sometimes.
[00:12:15] But then stability, like what does that mean? That means you're trying to keep this whole organization together.
[00:12:21] But you're not worried about this. When I'm going to total war with echoes country, not worried about stability for you. I'm worried about just destroying you. I'm going on offense.
[00:12:33] And then conducted along multiple lines of operations. So that means there's all kind. It's not just fighting. It's not just guns.
[00:12:43] It requires soldiers Marines to deploy a mix of both familiar combat tasks and skills more often associated with non military agencies with balance between them depending on the local situation. This is not easy. Leaders at all levels must adjust their approach constantly.
[00:12:57] Ensuring that their elements are ready each day to be greeted with a handshake or a hand grenade.
[00:13:07] What is that duty or mentality? I mean, just think you're going into a meeting. You got to be ready to deal with a handshake or a hand grenade.
[00:13:15] That's what you got to be ready for.
[00:13:18] To take on missions that only infrequently practiced until recent years at our combat training centers to be our nation builders as well as warriors to help reestablish institutions and local security forces to assist in rebuilding infrastructure and basic services.
[00:13:32] And if facilitate the establishment of local governance in rule of law, that's what you throw the military into all that stuff. That's why counterinsurgency is so hard.
[00:13:42] Yeah, just everything I just said going awards like the easy part. Here's the bad guys go kill them. That's the easy part. Everything else I just said that's what makes it so complicated.
[00:13:55] Collecting a successful counterinsurgency campaign thus requires a flexible adaptive force led by agile, well-informed culturally astute leaders.
[00:14:09] Probably the opposite of what the stereotypical military person is.
[00:14:13] His our hope that this manual provides a necessary guidelines to succeed in such a campaign.
[00:14:17] In operations that inevitably are exceedingly difficult and complex. Our soldiers and Marines deserve nothing less and it's signed David H. Patreus.
[00:14:26] Lieutenant General, US Army and James Anne Matas, Lieutenant General, United States Marine Corps.
[00:14:33] So there's your introduction. Right out of the gate, you can see what dealing with something totally different.
[00:14:40] Just infinitely more complex.
[00:14:45] Chapter one and this is the only chapter we're going to cover today.
[00:14:49] And it may be the look like I said it gets into some very granular stuff, but this is such a good opening.
[00:14:55] Chapter one, insurgency and counterinsurgency, counterinsurgency is not just thinking man's warfare. It's the graduate level of war.
[00:15:04] Special forces officer in Iraq 2005. And this is what's really cool about this is
[00:15:13] the battle of Ramadi is seen as a model of counterinsurgency.
[00:15:19] And I was lucky enough to be there and lucky enough to sit in brigade operators and division operators and to sit with the brigade commander and listen to what his thoughts were and hear what the input was and hear.
[00:15:35] I mean, it just was I was so lucky to be a part of this.
[00:15:39] To be there. So, starts off overview, insurgency and counterinsurgency are subsets of war.
[00:15:47] The globalization and technology and technological advancement have influenced contemporary conflict in nature of war in the 21st century is the same as it has been since ancient times of violent clash of interest between or among organized groups characterized by use of military force.
[00:16:05] Success in war still depends on a group's ability to mobilize support for its political interests and generate sufficient violence to achieve political consequences.
[00:16:18] Means to achieve these goals are not limited to regular armies employed by a nation state at its core.
[00:16:26] War is a violent struggle between hostile independent and irreconcilable wills attempting to impose their desires on another. It is a complex interaction between human beings and is played out in a continuous process of action, reaction and adaptation.
[00:16:45] War. This manual is available for free on the interwebs Google it. I'm not going to read the whole thing today. I'm going to hit some highlights.
[00:16:59] Says this also, it's scale and complexity should never this time. Counterinsurgency. It's scale and complexity should never be underestimated by leaders and planners indeed.
[00:17:09] The possible scale and complexity must be understood before the beginning of any such operation. This is a mistake we've seemed to make over and over again.
[00:17:19] You think you're the big badass American military. We're going there. We're going to squash these these enemy soldiers and the peasants will be on board. You know the local populace will be on board when they see the freedom.
[00:17:34] And we just underestimate this thing all day long. You underestimate how hard it is to do this. How hard it is to actually execute a counterinsurgency.
[00:17:45] Talks about a couple different aspects of insurgency, a couple of some kinds. A revolution, which they describe as an unplanned spontaneous explosion of popular will.
[00:17:56] Another one is a coup d'état, which is a small group of plotters that replace state leaders with little support from the people at large. And an in insurgency is an organized protracted.
[00:18:09] Political military struggle designed to weaken government control.
[00:18:13] Insurgency is normally seek to either overthrow existing social order and relocate power within the country.
[00:18:21] Talks about internal wars as the name internal wars implies these are primarily conflicts within states, not conflicts between states.
[00:18:31] And they all contain at least some element of civil war. That's why I think so much of this is pertinent to being a leader.
[00:18:39] Because so much of being a leader isn't about how you're taking the fight to the enemy. It's how you're handling the people inside your own country.
[00:18:47] That's what's hard. Handling the people inside your own company, handling the people inside your own organization. Let me tell you something.
[00:18:57] Adational on front. Where we do leadership consulting.
[00:19:02] We spend at least as much time helping solve the problems inside the company as we do helping companies figure out how to solve what they do to beat their competitors.
[00:19:19] Because if you don't have a squared away organized situation inside your team, you're not going to beat the competitors. You're not going to defeat your enemy.
[00:19:29] So this counter insurgency, these counter insurgents tactics are what you use to help your own team stay unified.
[00:19:38] And if you don't utilize them correctly, guess what you get? You get an insurgency.
[00:19:43] And at worst, it rips your team apart.
[00:19:47] But even if it doesn't rip your team apart, it has you rowing in different directions. And when you row in different directions, you don't go or you're supposed to go.
[00:19:58] So you need to keep a check on that.
[00:20:02] One possible exception to this rule involves what can be termed a liberation insurgency where indigents elements seek to expel or overthrow what they perceive to be a foreign occupational government.
[00:20:13] Such a resistance movement could be mounted by a legitimate government in exile as well as elements competing for that role.
[00:20:22] Another thing that happens in business businesses get bought, business get bought by bigger businesses businesses have people get inside and take over.
[00:20:29] There's hostile figures. There's all these kind of situations. And then you get these little insurgency inside companies inside businesses inside teams.
[00:20:36] Also, we can be outside actors getting involved.
[00:20:43] Fast forward in all cases, the long term objective for all side remains acceptance of the legitimacy of one side's claim to political power by the people state of region.
[00:20:55] So if you're a leader and you are in a company and you're not considered legitimate, you're basically out of the gate, you're probably going to be dealing with insurgency.
[00:21:07] That's just how it's happening.
[00:21:10] It's going to be rough. Another little section here. The scale and complexity of coin should never be underestimated. The effort requires a firm political will and extreme patients on the part of the government. It's people and countries providing its support.
[00:21:28] Why it's bed security requirements also limit flexibility again, seating to seating the initiative to insurgency. There's all kinds of reasons that the insurgency haven't advantage.
[00:21:40] Right. Another quote here. The contest of the internal war is not fair as most of the rules favor the insurgence.
[00:21:50] Most of the rules favor the insurgence. I racked the absolutely did do do the insurgence and I racked care if they wounded friendly civilians not one bit.
[00:22:00] Did they care if they killed each other not one bit did they use torture absolutely did they use terror absolutely.
[00:22:07] Did they do the most brutal and savage things to the local populace? Yes, they absolutely did and they didn't care at all.
[00:22:16] So they have a completed advantage when it comes to the rules.
[00:22:21] Any whether you're talking about the tactical rules or the actual rules of engagement or the law of our own conflict. They don't care about any of that.
[00:22:31] The insurgent can make exorbitant promises and point out governmental shortcomings caused by the insurgency. So yeah, so you make a mistake fighting an insurgency. They're going to use it to their advantage.
[00:22:43] You kill civilians by accident. Oh, that's going to be a you know national news world news global news. They're going to take advantage of that. They want that to happen.
[00:22:55] Fast forward coin is not an approach to war that can be classified simply as foreign internal defense. It features a full spectrum of operations including stability operations like any other campaign.
[00:23:06] And all cases, however, insurgencies will not be defeated simply by killing insurgencies since the insurgencies since the insurgencies begins with strategic initiative.
[00:23:16] Meaning they have an advantage.
[00:23:18] The counter insurgen is usually involved.
[00:23:22] Initially and more defensive than offensive operations. That's the way it kind of kicks off. They're attacking you. You didn't even know who they are.
[00:23:31] Victory cannot be gained until the people accept the legitimacy of the government mounting coin and stop actively and possibly supporting the insurgencies.
[00:23:40] That right there, I was smiling when I read this because that's one of the quotes that I just completely ripped off from this when I read it for the first time and I started using that all the time.
[00:23:50] You know, I started saying, well, you know, when my boss would ask me, you know, what are you guys trying to get done? I'm so sorry, you know, we're trying to stop the passive support.
[00:23:58] That's happening for the insurgencies and all of us a nice-ounded smart stole stole stole words from them because that's what there was a lot of in Romadi. In Romadi there was local populace was so scared that if an insurgen came into their house and wanted to use their window to shoot their sniper rifle from, they would just like get out of their way, get them some bread.
[00:24:22] You know, we don't want to bother you. You do what you got to do. We're not here to cause you, but they provided passive support. And that happens inside companies too. You know, you get the whatever that one element that used to be here that's going to help you.
[00:24:34] They're going to give you a hand. They're not definitely not going to rat you out because they see that illegitimate leader that whatever stepped in.
[00:24:42] I do, just want to keep their job a lot of time. Yeah, exactly. They don't want to make any waves, right?
[00:24:52] This gives a good section that kind of talks about the histories of insurgencies. That's why it's worth pulling out this book.
[00:25:02] Each insurgency is unique, although there may be similarities among them. In all cases, the insurgency aim is to force political change.
[00:25:14] And this is important. I've just kind of read my note here.
[00:25:17] Force political change, but actually sometimes, especially in business, the goal is to prevent change, right? They don't want some new system. They don't want some new procedure. So they have a little insurgency to fight against their fighting against change.
[00:25:37] Specific types of insurgency. Here's some things that you're supposed to try and figure out. What's the root cause of the insurgency? How important is that, right? If you're an a team and you're in a business, you're in a leadership position.
[00:25:50] And there's some kind of an insurgency happening. You feel that.
[00:25:54] Find out what the root of it is. Where is this coming from? Next, extend to which it enjoys support both internally and externally. Who's who's on board with us?
[00:26:03] Basis on which insurgency appeal to target population.
[00:26:09] Insurgency motivation and depth of commitment where they are, like how much does this mean to them, likely in search of weapons and tactics, operational environment, which insurgency to initiate and develop their campaign.
[00:26:21] So there's some things to look at. And this is why this, again, this is why I think this is important because
[00:26:30] if you just look at your own team and you just think, oh, there against me, I'll met war with them. It's a problem. The way you fight that war is not going to be correct.
[00:26:39] If you look at it as an insurgency, you say, okay, how do I actually assess this? And this becomes this gives you such a strategic advantage.
[00:26:54] Several different types of insurgency. Some of them seek to completely change the existing political system and our guests.
[00:27:03] The gallitarians, traditionalists, pluralists, they got good little definitions for all these in there.
[00:27:08] Some do not seek total political power in a state. These are secessionists, reformist, preventionists, commercialists.
[00:27:16] And you've got to try to figure out what it is that your insurgency are seeking.
[00:27:22] Insurgen strategies you've got conspiratorial.
[00:27:29] Conspiratorial strategy involves a few leaders and a militant cadre or activist party,
[00:27:35] seizing control of government structures or exploiting a revolutionary situation.
[00:27:43] This is what's interesting. Such insurgency remains secretive as long as possible,
[00:27:48] emerging only when success can be quickly achieved.
[00:27:53] That's definitely something to think about.
[00:27:57] Because you think everything's going cool, right? You hear a little bit of murmur here, a murmur there.
[00:28:02] Someone's talking about this method that we're using, someone's against some way,
[00:28:06] some change that we want to make, hear little whispers.
[00:28:09] And then all of a sudden one day boom, you get hit in the face with it.
[00:28:12] And you aren't ready for it.
[00:28:15] So you've got to watch out for that.
[00:28:20] Military focus, these are ones that are going to use military force to try and make things happen.
[00:28:29] Urban organizations like the Irish Republican Army and Latin American groups have pursued an urban warfare strategy.
[00:28:37] Approaches as terrorist tactics and cities to so-disorder and create government repression.
[00:28:44] Those objectives have not generated much success without wider rural support.
[00:28:51] You also got the protracted popular war.
[00:28:56] God, that's an ugly term protracted war.
[00:29:01] What does that mean? It's going to last a long time.
[00:29:05] And what sucks is from a psychological standpoint, like if you and I are going to train you,
[00:29:11] you're going to train you, you know that I'm just a guy that's just going to go protract it.
[00:29:17] Like you don't want none of that, right?
[00:29:19] I tend not to.
[00:29:20] Hey, well, let me, let me, let's say you set up the clock, the timer,
[00:29:24] and you put five minute rounds on there.
[00:29:26] And then I walk over and I just turn it off.
[00:29:29] There's no time limit.
[00:29:31] It's just going to be a protracted war.
[00:29:33] It's where going.
[00:29:34] I don't care how long it takes.
[00:29:36] I was thinking of doing it.
[00:29:41] Is there still, is there a digital tournament right now?
[00:29:43] That's no time limit.
[00:29:44] It's a mission only.
[00:29:45] Does one exist right now?
[00:29:47] I don't know.
[00:29:48] We've had some variations of it attempted.
[00:29:51] Yeah.
[00:29:51] But is there anyone that's doing no time limit?
[00:29:54] No.
[00:29:55] It's a mission only.
[00:29:56] I think there's certain ones that have like those types of matches,
[00:30:00] but they're I think they're specific, like special matches.
[00:30:03] Like no time limit matches or something like that.
[00:30:05] It's not all of them, but it's actually pretty rare, but yes, I've seen that.
[00:30:09] What if we do a GJT tournament called protracted war?
[00:30:13] Yeah.
[00:30:15] Sure.
[00:30:16] The thing is, you got to be ready.
[00:30:18] You got to be ready for it.
[00:30:19] Think about this as a competitor.
[00:30:21] You're like, I got a hydrate because I might be fighting for the next nine hours.
[00:30:25] Well, that's what the UFC was.
[00:30:27] Yeah.
[00:30:28] Yeah.
[00:30:28] The first ones were, how many before they made the time limits?
[00:30:34] 15 minute time limit with like over time.
[00:30:38] So it was one and two, I think.
[00:30:41] Yeah.
[00:30:42] And three?
[00:30:43] Something like that.
[00:30:44] So you'd have to do this.
[00:30:46] I had an idea.
[00:30:48] You do because you got to figure most matches aren't going to last like nine hours.
[00:30:53] Yeah.
[00:30:54] Very few matches would last nine hours.
[00:30:57] I think I think very few matches would go over an hour,
[00:31:00] but occasionally you would get to just really evenly matched humans.
[00:31:06] And you know how hard it is to submit somebody.
[00:31:08] That's good.
[00:31:11] But if you had three mats running at the same time,
[00:31:15] and they were all had no time limit protracted war on each one of them.
[00:31:20] So that way, if you have an audience that wants to see this,
[00:31:23] they can watch whichever one is this happening.
[00:31:26] Because that's face it.
[00:31:27] And then the problem is going to get, you know, the guy's going to get a position.
[00:31:31] And he's just going to start grinding somebody down, but it might take two hours.
[00:31:35] I mean, if I got, if I was going against you in this tournament,
[00:31:39] and I got across side, it would be a long time.
[00:31:41] Yeah.
[00:31:42] I would be there for a long time.
[00:31:43] Yeah.
[00:31:44] I wouldn't rush it.
[00:31:45] I would cook you for a while.
[00:31:47] Sure.
[00:31:48] Yeah.
[00:31:49] Why would I rush?
[00:31:51] Yeah, no reason.
[00:31:52] And I think that was the whole thing about Gigi to begin with, like, I'll help, you know,
[00:31:57] Haley Gracie's, you know, smaller guy, you know, and he lets that, you know,
[00:32:02] he can put himself in safe position, positioning tape, minimize damage, all this stuff,
[00:32:06] and then like, I get's all tired, and then he can use his, you know, leverage or whatever.
[00:32:10] Like, there was a lot of them.
[00:32:11] His matches old school, over one hour.
[00:32:13] Yeah.
[00:32:14] When they had no time limit.
[00:32:15] But you got to be ready for that.
[00:32:16] Yeah, as a competitor, but as far as tournaments go, as an audience member.
[00:32:21] Two, you got to be ready for that.
[00:32:23] Yeah.
[00:32:24] Well, that's why maybe you're doing it with multiple matches going on at the same time.
[00:32:28] And that way you can, you know, you can kind of highlight the big, the match where there's action happening.
[00:32:32] But I watched a, I don't, I don't think it was no time limit, but limit, but it was one of those ones.
[00:32:37] I think it was like a 30 minute time limit.
[00:32:40] It was like a super fight.
[00:32:41] And one of the early tournaments that I did, and they were super good.
[00:32:45] They're both really good.
[00:32:46] So they're even.
[00:32:47] And like, not a won't even score to point.
[00:32:50] And after a while, I was like, brother, this is, I liked Gigi to a lot.
[00:32:55] But it's got a boring.
[00:32:57] Yeah, that's, that's the, you know, what the problem is there?
[00:33:00] The time limit.
[00:33:02] The time limit.
[00:33:03] Because when you have a time limit, you're like, oh, well, I was training yesterday.
[00:33:07] I was like, hmm.
[00:33:08] There was something like 40 seconds left.
[00:33:11] I could see it on the clock.
[00:33:12] And I was fighting, I was rolling with Andy.
[00:33:15] And I was like fighting to keep him in, you know, from passing my guard.
[00:33:19] And then, you know, there was like 32 seconds left.
[00:33:22] And I was like, hey, man, even if he passed my guard right now,
[00:33:25] you know, he's, chances are he's not going to finish me.
[00:33:30] So, so I'm not saying I let him pass because he definitely passed it.
[00:33:34] But, yeah, you don't kind of, you know, I kind of like,
[00:33:36] within a lot, lock my hands and I kind of sat there and I'm like, you know,
[00:33:39] and even he knows it.
[00:33:40] Yeah, he knows it.
[00:33:41] He's laughing.
[00:33:42] He's like smiling or whatever.
[00:33:43] He's like, yeah.
[00:33:44] So that's in your head.
[00:33:46] Yeah.
[00:33:47] So when you, when you're in these things, do you have a time limit?
[00:33:51] You're like, whatever.
[00:33:52] I can, I can hang out for another seven minutes.
[00:33:55] Yeah.
[00:33:56] Not just don't expose anything.
[00:33:57] But if there's no time limit,
[00:33:59] that's different mentality.
[00:34:01] So when you're going into those protracted wars,
[00:34:05] if you're the, if you're the insurgent,
[00:34:08] bro, you live there.
[00:34:10] Yeah.
[00:34:11] You live there.
[00:34:12] Your life, no.
[00:34:13] So, so you don't care how long.
[00:34:15] You know, when we, when we fought Vietnam, when we fought in Vietnam,
[00:34:20] the Vietnamese, they're not going anywhere.
[00:34:22] They're not, they're at home.
[00:34:24] Right.
[00:34:25] You know, we have to go over there.
[00:34:26] When we're fighting in Iraq, they're at home.
[00:34:28] The insurgents are there.
[00:34:29] They live there.
[00:34:30] There was foreign fighters, of course.
[00:34:32] But Afghanistan, same thing.
[00:34:35] So they have this weapon on their side,
[00:34:38] which is time, the protracted war.
[00:34:40] Yeah.
[00:34:41] This is going to some kind of off,
[00:34:44] but I was watching this.
[00:34:46] It was like, it wasn't a documentary,
[00:34:48] but you know, the kind of words like on like discovery,
[00:34:51] or one of these, and then they,
[00:34:53] they propose like, what if this happened?
[00:34:57] How, you know, like there's a show called What If Humans Disappeared,
[00:35:00] or something like that.
[00:35:01] You ever heard of that?
[00:35:02] Where it's like, okay, after, you know,
[00:35:04] 10 years, the cities would start to get bigger and after.
[00:35:07] And they have the CGI and it's pretty cool.
[00:35:09] So there was one where it said,
[00:35:11] it said, what if aliens took over?
[00:35:14] Mm.
[00:35:15] And how would we beat them?
[00:35:17] Because if aliens took over,
[00:35:18] they would, that's what they would be.
[00:35:19] They wouldn't be like, oh,
[00:35:21] let me just come and live with you guys.
[00:35:23] That's what they're saying.
[00:35:24] Chances are,
[00:35:25] Chances are they're not benevolent.
[00:35:28] Yeah, not to help people.
[00:35:29] They're here for earth, you know?
[00:35:31] It's kind of like, I mean, think about it.
[00:35:33] That's a every living thing.
[00:35:34] It's kind of like, but I live here now.
[00:35:35] Kind of thing.
[00:35:36] We got to,
[00:35:37] so anyway, they're saying,
[00:35:39] they're saying how would we fight the aliens?
[00:35:41] And they're, they're breaking it down.
[00:35:43] Like, this is what the aliens would do first.
[00:35:45] This is what they do second.
[00:35:46] This is what they do third.
[00:35:47] They're just totally breaking it out.
[00:35:48] I was like, thank.
[00:35:49] But they're saying at the end of the, at the end of the day,
[00:35:52] the best way we could win is through.
[00:35:54] I think they call it guerrilla warfare or maybe.
[00:35:56] That's what they're in certain circumstances.
[00:35:57] I forget what they called it.
[00:35:58] But that's what they would say.
[00:36:00] It's like, we live here.
[00:36:01] So we have that advantage of like,
[00:36:03] we can hide for, you know, months.
[00:36:05] And then attacking, then go hide again.
[00:36:07] You know, because we live here.
[00:36:08] Meanwhile, they're here.
[00:36:09] So it's like, they're here.
[00:36:11] They got to run supplies from their own.
[00:36:13] Yeah.
[00:36:14] Whatever alien spaceship.
[00:36:16] Yeah.
[00:36:17] And they got to make moves.
[00:36:18] And they got to drag me into a protracted conversation about alien evasions.
[00:36:22] I'm losing this wall over here.
[00:36:24] But it's the exact metaphor, though,
[00:36:26] you know, like where if like aliens are coming over,
[00:36:28] whether it be to take over or to get some alien job done.
[00:36:31] But we live here.
[00:36:32] We don't, you know, we can take hits.
[00:36:34] We're still living here.
[00:36:35] This is the thing that's ridiculous about this argument.
[00:36:37] Is what level of competence does the alien do the aliens have?
[00:36:43] We'll say varying levels of competence.
[00:36:46] Okay.
[00:36:47] So if they're, let's face it,
[00:36:48] we can get invaded by aliens that were not that advanced.
[00:36:51] And we would just kick their ass real quick.
[00:36:53] Like on the district, you know, something like that?
[00:36:55] I don't know.
[00:36:56] But I don't, I'm not familiar.
[00:36:58] When we're to that battle take place.
[00:37:00] South Africa.
[00:37:01] What was, who, who are the insurgents?
[00:37:03] Aliens.
[00:37:04] Oh, no, the insurgents were, I guess that's not really an insurgent situation.
[00:37:08] Yes, sir.
[00:37:09] Okay.
[00:37:09] I thought you were talking about an actual one time situation that I was unaware of.
[00:37:12] Oh, yeah.
[00:37:12] The aliens came down.
[00:37:13] Yeah.
[00:37:13] I don't know.
[00:37:14] But, um, yeah.
[00:37:15] And that movie.
[00:37:16] Yeah.
[00:37:16] I guess, you know, a district name was not about any kind of insurgents yet.
[00:37:19] Oh.
[00:37:20] It was more of that show.
[00:37:21] What was their competence?
[00:37:22] What was their competence?
[00:37:23] The alien?
[00:37:24] Yeah.
[00:37:24] Basically, it was like aliens.
[00:37:25] I don't know.
[00:37:26] I forget why they were there.
[00:37:27] No one really knew why they were there.
[00:37:28] But it's essentially the ship didn't,
[00:37:30] it didn't crash, but it sort of got jammed up.
[00:37:33] And they were sort of stuck there.
[00:37:35] Okay.
[00:37:35] So they would, they fight after a few months or a month or whatever.
[00:37:38] They, they were, the humans people went up and with their helicopters.
[00:37:42] Because the alien ship kind of came, didn't crash just hovered.
[00:37:45] And the state, they didn't open, didn't nothing.
[00:37:47] So they go up and they explore, they open the alien craft.
[00:37:51] It's pretty good, good show.
[00:37:53] Anyway, they open it and all the aliens are all starving and
[00:37:57] freaking, you know, they're messed up.
[00:37:59] Like they're desolate, you know?
[00:38:00] God.
[00:38:01] And so they're like, hey, well, they're not hostile.
[00:38:04] So what do we do?
[00:38:05] Just leave it, you know, so they set up these caps form,
[00:38:08] you know, they've helped help them or whatever.
[00:38:10] So the aliens were kind of quarantined.
[00:38:12] They were both kind of tank of food.
[00:38:14] Like a food.
[00:38:15] So they kind of shuffle supplies, but rather sort of aliens, you know?
[00:38:18] Like, I don't know what do you do.
[00:38:19] You can't just let them live with us because they're kind of whatever.
[00:38:22] So it's kind of that situation.
[00:38:24] So it was less about fighting or it was less about that.
[00:38:27] It was more about some other issue.
[00:38:29] Yeah, and I guess you'd have to figure that if an alien element
[00:38:32] made it here, they're pretty advanced.
[00:38:34] They got some technology.
[00:38:35] So I don't think we're going to be coming up against the JV team.
[00:38:38] No.
[00:38:39] But that's what that show was saying.
[00:38:41] The JV team isn't going to show up on Earth.
[00:38:44] No.
[00:38:45] Right?
[00:38:46] Because how do they get here?
[00:38:47] They designed some kind of a spaceship.
[00:38:49] Yeah.
[00:38:50] Got here.
[00:38:51] These are some, these are some Elon Musk level smart.
[00:38:54] Well, then again, technically, sure,
[00:38:56] but that does that indicate or does that prove that
[00:39:01] they're going to be squared away in all ways.
[00:39:04] You know, maybe they just have this new technology.
[00:39:06] They can do this stuff, but if you can make a spaceship that can get here,
[00:39:09] I mean, you had to fight to get here.
[00:39:11] This was not easy.
[00:39:12] Yeah, but that's a different kind of fight when you think about it.
[00:39:14] It's insane.
[00:39:15] It's kind of like, you know, oh, maybe they're just people that
[00:39:18] imagine if they just didn't even have the concept of violence, right?
[00:39:23] Yeah, just was torn.
[00:39:24] Yeah.
[00:39:25] And so they could show up here.
[00:39:27] And the first one that tries to do something,
[00:39:30] somebody just hits him and they have with a bat.
[00:39:32] And they're just all shocked.
[00:39:34] Yeah, I'll confuse them.
[00:39:35] Yeah.
[00:39:36] But is that even possible that there's a group that just has no comprehension of violence?
[00:39:41] If there is, you know what they'd be, they'd be aliens.
[00:39:44] Because, you know, same things work different.
[00:39:47] You know, like, everyone's in a lot of like,
[00:39:50] you'll get a situation where, I don't know.
[00:39:52] This turned into grounded violence or crap.
[00:39:55] I'm thinking of something real like ambiguous actually right now.
[00:39:58] But let's say, okay, let's say you're in the alien.
[00:40:01] You go to a distant planet.
[00:40:02] You're like, we're going to take over.
[00:40:04] So we're going to, we're going to bring this poison.
[00:40:06] This poison is like the most lethal poison ever created here.
[00:40:09] So we're going to take this and we're just going to exterminate them all.
[00:40:12] Like that's how.
[00:40:13] So we're going to go and then you go to this distant galaxy.
[00:40:16] You go to their planet.
[00:40:17] Whatever.
[00:40:18] Perfect.
[00:40:19] Perfect.
[00:40:19] Just like earth.
[00:40:20] And you go, you start spraying this poison and they're licking it up.
[00:40:23] Yeah, they're like, oh my gosh, it solves like a bunch of their problems and make some super, you know, it's like that kind of situation.
[00:40:30] I'm just saying, it doesn't prove that just because they know how to travel through dimensions or what and it doesn't mean they're going to be successful in everything.
[00:40:38] You seem to be, you could be the opposite.
[00:40:40] Right on.
[00:40:41] All right.
[00:40:42] Well,
[00:40:44] protracted war.
[00:40:46] That's where we were at.
[00:40:47] Yes, sir.
[00:40:48] Mao's theory of protracted war outlines three-faced political military approach strategic defensive.
[00:40:55] This is where the enemy.
[00:40:58] And in this case, your flip flop and back and forth and who's the enemy.
[00:41:01] But the enemy, meaning the government has stronger forces.
[00:41:05] So you're in defense.
[00:41:06] Then stalemate where you're doing gorilla operations.
[00:41:11] And then offensive is when you actually have.
[00:41:16] Be down the government forces enough that you can actually have a real war with them.
[00:41:20] Almost like a conventional war.
[00:41:22] And then it talks about how you can go.
[00:41:24] These stages you can go.
[00:41:25] You can go through one stage.
[00:41:27] You can skip a stage.
[00:41:28] You can come back to the stage.
[00:41:30] So that's what happens.
[00:41:32] Reproduct or war.
[00:41:33] It's very hard to.
[00:41:34] Speaking of protracted war.
[00:41:36] It's very hard to get this submission on the insurgents because.
[00:41:40] Every time you get them get him in a chokehold, they slip out and they slip away.
[00:41:44] Right.
[00:41:45] And now you can't go and find them because they slip back in with the local populace.
[00:41:50] So you've got to kind of.
[00:41:53] You know, check for that.
[00:41:55] So that's protracted popular war.
[00:41:57] They got traditional many contemporary insurgents.
[00:41:59] These fit a more traditional approach based on clan tribe or ethnic group.
[00:42:02] Such insurgents typically has an entire community.
[00:42:05] Join the effort as a whole.
[00:42:07] Bring it with them.
[00:42:08] They're existing.
[00:42:09] A social and military hierarchy.
[00:42:11] The primary struggle in an internal war is to mobilize people in a battle for legitimacy.
[00:42:23] And I think that word legitimacy and legit is one thing that made me start thinking,
[00:42:28] maybe I should do the counter-researchs, you may know.
[00:42:30] Because think about how often that happens in an organization.
[00:42:34] The leader is either legitimate or not.
[00:42:40] And if you're not considered a legitimate everything is hard.
[00:42:45] And if people think you're legitimate, everything is that much easier.
[00:42:51] So when you are acting as a leader and you do things that negate or detract from your legitimacy,
[00:43:00] you're doing a whole lot more damage than you think you are.
[00:43:04] Every time you use your authority in a abusive way,
[00:43:09] your legitimacy goes down.
[00:43:11] Every time you tell a lie, your legitimacy goes down.
[00:43:15] Every time you do the right thing your legitimacy goes up.
[00:43:19] Yeah.
[00:43:20] I feel like you know when people will say, I demand respect.
[00:43:27] You know like that thing.
[00:43:29] You automatically just lost respect.
[00:43:31] Yeah, kind of right?
[00:43:32] Yeah.
[00:43:33] It's because that it's not really.
[00:43:35] And by the way, you don't even have to say that. You could just act like that.
[00:43:40] Just act like you demand respect.
[00:43:43] Yeah, like call me surr, damn it.
[00:43:46] Kind of thing.
[00:43:47] I'm not saying there's anything wrong calling someone surr or whatever.
[00:43:49] But you know that kind of stuff.
[00:43:51] They'll harp on that kind of stuff.
[00:43:52] Like you can tell someone's reaction when they're reacting to this detail,
[00:43:55] where it's like, oh, bad, you're like, I see what you're doing.
[00:43:58] I know.
[00:43:59] It's you're basically saying like, I demand respect.
[00:44:02] I'm not going to, I mean, me earning it.
[00:44:03] That's all whole different thing.
[00:44:04] You know, so you're saying, but you just better give it to me kind of thing.
[00:44:08] So it's like one of those, you know, if you're illegitimate, that tends to be like what it looks like.
[00:44:13] If you're legitimate, it tends to not be what it looks like.
[00:44:17] It's just a good little framework to think and to filter your actions through.
[00:44:22] Does this make me more or less legitimate?
[00:44:26] Mobilization means there are five means to mobilize popular support.
[00:44:30] Part persuasion, coercion, reaction to abuses foreign support, apolitical motivations.
[00:44:36] A mixture of them may motivate anyone.
[00:44:39] Individuals. So persuasion.
[00:44:42] Political Social Security and economic benefits entice people to support one side of the other.
[00:44:48] This is where you're like, hey, we're going to take care of you.
[00:44:51] Coversion.
[00:44:53] This is the carrot in the stick, right?
[00:44:55] Coversion is the carrot. Coversion is the stick. You either get on board with what we're doing or we're going to give you a beat down.
[00:45:01] Reaction to abuses. This one is important. A government that abuses its people or is is tyrannical.
[00:45:06] Generates resistance to its rule. Think about that from a leadership perspective.
[00:45:10] Think about all those three things from a leadership perspective.
[00:45:12] You can either use persuasion. You can use code.
[00:45:15] So carrot, stick and then reaction to abuses.
[00:45:19] So if you're abuses, if you abuse people as a leader,
[00:45:23] they're going to have been injured, maltreated, victimized dishonor,
[00:45:26] or had close friends relative killed by the government,
[00:45:29] particularly by security forces, may lash back at their attackers.
[00:45:34] So when you're abusive to people, it's going to come back at you.
[00:45:39] It adds fuel to the insurgency.
[00:45:42] So you're saying the insurgency will use that?
[00:45:44] Oh, yeah.
[00:45:45] That's the media.
[00:45:46] That's how you get people to come on board.
[00:45:48] If I show you your house now, it's like, hey, echo.
[00:45:50] I was really sorry to hear about your brother.
[00:45:52] I can't believe that they did that.
[00:45:55] Yeah.
[00:45:56] I can't believe the government security forces did that to your brother.
[00:46:00] Do you want to fight back?
[00:46:02] Yeah.
[00:46:03] Here's what we're doing.
[00:46:05] You see what I'm going on there?
[00:46:07] So that means that when you're fighting an insurgency,
[00:46:12] you can't add fuel to that fire.
[00:46:15] You have to be very careful in how you act towards the populace
[00:46:20] the populace because the populace, because the insurgence will utilize your abusive actions
[00:46:27] to bolster their cause.
[00:46:30] Foreign support, obviously, you can have people on the outside that like to see that want to support some insurgency inside of a country.
[00:46:42] A political motivations.
[00:46:44] Here's criminals, mercenaries, people attracted by the holy warriors romantic status and others who self-images of being a warrior and a fighter for a cause might also join in search.
[00:46:56] I think you saw a lot of that nicest people that were just criminals and just wanted to go get crime on.
[00:47:03] Yeah.
[00:47:06] I mean, it wasn't like they were promised in a whole bunch of nice stuff in the Islamic state.
[00:47:12] Yeah.
[00:47:13] Other than authorized rape of women, children, girls and boys.
[00:47:20] There was, you know, I'm not going to say how I saw this, but I saw some ISIS promo videos.
[00:47:26] Like promo, like, yeah.
[00:47:28] I don't know that they were recruiting videos.
[00:47:31] Oh, no, there's some of those too.
[00:47:33] But it was like a promo, like advertisement for this cool, like club kind of thing.
[00:47:38] Yeah.
[00:47:39] Oh, wait, were they ones that were like insanely violent?
[00:47:43] No.
[00:47:44] So they were just kind of real positive.
[00:47:46] Yeah.
[00:47:47] And it would show like, yeah, there was a whole bunch of them.
[00:47:51] And yes, they're the insanely violent one that were kind of like produced a little bit.
[00:47:55] You know, that was, yeah, that was kind of odd.
[00:47:57] It was like weird.
[00:47:58] Oh, because I don't know who they were marketing to.
[00:48:01] I mean, I couldn't relate to the audience that they were marketing to.
[00:48:04] We'll say that.
[00:48:05] But yeah, and the other one, the nice one was odd because of like, what everything else they've been putting out.
[00:48:11] You know, then it was like, almost like this utopian commercial.
[00:48:15] Yeah, that's the, that's a crazy world of, I guess, social media might have heard my due turn for the social media, emotional media.
[00:48:26] It's not only for social media, it's actually all media because every media right now is just emotional media.
[00:48:32] How can we make everyone hyper emotional?
[00:48:34] What story can we show to make everyone freak out?
[00:48:37] Let's do that.
[00:48:38] What video can I tweet or share on the gram to make people get super crazy?
[00:48:47] Oh, yeah.
[00:48:48] Let's do that.
[00:48:49] Yeah, which one can we, can people retweet?
[00:48:51] That's a big one.
[00:48:52] Why would there be like, okay, this is like super retweetable?
[00:48:55] Because you can get all fired up and then you're going to say something along lines and you're head.
[00:49:00] You can say something along lines up of,
[00:49:02] can you believe this guy said this?
[00:49:05] Boom, retweet.
[00:49:06] Everyone who agrees with you?
[00:49:08] Boom, they're going to feel the same way, hopefully retweet too.
[00:49:11] People, it's also actually some people that weren't really thinking about it, see that and they go, wait.
[00:49:15] Yeah.
[00:49:16] Why?
[00:49:17] They get emotional.
[00:49:18] Yes.
[00:49:19] And then you get a whole, millions of people.
[00:49:23] Yeah.
[00:49:24] Um, next little sections is about causes,
[00:49:29] causes, causes, a principle or movement militantly defended or supported.
[00:49:33] In surgeons make create artificial contradictions using propaganda and misinformation.
[00:49:38] In surgeons have much to gain by not limiting themselves to a single cause.
[00:49:49] In surgeons employed deep seated strategic causes as well as temporary local causes,
[00:49:54] adding or deleting them as circumstances demand.
[00:49:57] You get this sort of whatever your, whatever your problem is with the government, like if you're an surgeon in Iraq,
[00:50:04] people, people, you know, not only do they say, well, well, and Iraq, it was the, the bathis that been in charge forever.
[00:50:12] And not only that, but we don't have whatever, you know, we don't, we don't, we don't, we don't get enough money for our oil.
[00:50:19] Whatever grievance you have becomes part of something that we adopt.
[00:50:23] And that can happen inside any team, right? What starts off is, you know, if you're mad, you know,
[00:50:28] I'm telling I'm mad because we're using a new method and you're mad because we didn't get a pay raise.
[00:50:33] Guess what? Now we got it. We both, I'm mad about both now.
[00:50:37] I'm going to, I'm going to, I'm top, you're damn right.
[00:50:39] We need more money.
[00:50:41] Yeah.
[00:50:42] And that's how the insurgency's grow.
[00:50:44] You start adopting all these different problems.
[00:50:47] Yeah.
[00:50:48] All these different causes, unify them into one giant cause.
[00:50:51] Yeah.
[00:50:52] So it like solidifies the like enemy, like that's the enemy versus us.
[00:50:57] And he country ruled by a small group of that broad, without broad popular participation provides a political cause for insurgence.
[00:51:08] Exploited or repressed social groups by the entire, be they entire classes, that think groups are small.
[00:51:16] And the elites may support larger causes in reaction to their own or narrower grievances.
[00:51:22] So again, as a leader when you're looking at your team, in internal,
[00:51:28] see that you might be getting multiple causes turned against you.
[00:51:36] Next section is about mobilizing resources.
[00:51:41] And obviously insurgence, well, resort to tactics such as guerrilla warfare and terrorism, not only because of their disadvantages,
[00:51:48] manpower organization, but also because they usually begin with limited or inadequate resources compared to the counterinsurgence.
[00:51:56] So that's why you end up with guerrilla warfare, asymmetrical warfare.
[00:52:02] They talk about money, they talk about insurgency and crime,
[00:52:05] system and requirements often drive insurgence into relationships with organized crime or inter-criminal activities themselves.
[00:52:11] This is absolutely true.
[00:52:13] I know the Iraqis had all kinds of crime going on.
[00:52:16] So the insurgence had all kinds of crime going on.
[00:52:19] Smuggling and black markets and the whole nine yards to try and pay for what they were doing.
[00:52:24] And then, you know, in Afghanistan, they got this massive drug trade to support the insurgency.
[00:52:30] So that's definitely something that can be problematic.
[00:52:36] Elements of insurgency leaders, combatants, political cadre, exilaries and mass-base leaders control the insurgent movement.
[00:52:44] They are the idea people and the planners.
[00:52:46] They usually exercise leadership through force of personality, the power of revolutionary ideas.
[00:52:53] It's not an interesting, the power of revolutionary ideas.
[00:52:56] It's not kind of interesting, like you always hear me talk about how I was a rebellious kid.
[00:53:01] And I was rebellious in my Navy career without a doubt.
[00:53:06] I was rebellious. I always have that kind of rebellious thing.
[00:53:09] But the idea that the power of revolutionary idea of revolutionary ideas,
[00:53:16] there's like a natural human kind of,
[00:53:21] there's a natural human draw to that. And you know what?
[00:53:26] My best example of that, which you, my friend, will give me a full salute and credit for.
[00:53:34] Do you know what it is?
[00:53:36] What is the insurgency that you think of that everyone is drawn to and everyone supports?
[00:53:41] Surgency that everyone's drawn to.
[00:53:43] Just about every human being supports one particular insurgency.
[00:53:52] Individual responsibility.
[00:53:54] No. Star Wars.
[00:53:57] Star Wars.
[00:53:59] What's the deal?
[00:54:00] The movie.
[00:54:01] Yeah, the movie.
[00:54:02] Who are the rebels?
[00:54:04] The rebels.
[00:54:05] Right? They're revolutionary.
[00:54:06] That's what's happening.
[00:54:07] Why does why do these revolutionaries?
[00:54:10] Why does she giveara? You don't have this t-shirt that everyone, because he's a revolutionary.
[00:54:16] Right? People like that.
[00:54:18] Is there just some weird?
[00:54:20] I guess it's, can be kind of like rooting for the underdog.
[00:54:25] Maybe there's some kind of attraction to that.
[00:54:31] That just naturally exists.
[00:54:33] That's why when we watch Star Wars, no one says, hey, I hope the Empire wins, right?
[00:54:39] I don't want saying that.
[00:54:40] Even the name the Empire.
[00:54:42] I see what's going on there.
[00:54:45] I mean, it's the American Revolution.
[00:54:47] The revolutionary ideas.
[00:54:50] People like that kind of thing.
[00:54:52] Yeah, under, I mean, that's a kind of thing.
[00:54:55] You know why?
[00:54:56] I guess, you know what?
[00:54:57] I'm thinking through it psychologically.
[00:54:59] You know what? You like about it.
[00:55:00] You know what's naturally attractive about it?
[00:55:04] You take all your grievances in life.
[00:55:08] Right? I don't don't make enough money.
[00:55:10] I didn't end up where I wanted to end up.
[00:55:12] My girlfriend dumped me, my boyfriend dumped me.
[00:55:14] I don't like my house.
[00:55:16] I don't like my car.
[00:55:17] I don't like my apartment.
[00:55:18] Whatever grievances you have, you can package all those things up,
[00:55:21] and you can point a finger at them, and you can say those things are all wrong.
[00:55:25] I'm being revolutionary over here.
[00:55:27] Yeah.
[00:55:28] Yeah, and you identify with that.
[00:55:30] I mean, back to the movie thing where you identify with the Empire.
[00:55:33] I really got my ass.
[00:55:34] I really got my ass.
[00:55:35] I'm going to open up a door.
[00:55:38] You're the one who said Star Wars.
[00:55:39] So you think what if they call it just the rebellion?
[00:55:41] What are they called? The Rebels?
[00:55:43] The Rebels? Yeah.
[00:55:44] The Rebels? Yeah.
[00:55:45] The Belle in the Senate.
[00:55:46] Yeah.
[00:55:47] And you support them.
[00:55:48] They're the underdog versus the Empire.
[00:55:49] Yeah, but that's most movies, because I haven't seen most movies.
[00:55:52] But that's a lot of movies.
[00:55:54] The underdog.
[00:55:55] That's a lot of.
[00:55:56] It's kind of, to be honest, it seems like all of them.
[00:55:58] Like, brought karate kid, freck-end,
[00:56:00] broody, I don't know, name the Rambo. I don't know.
[00:56:04] Whatever movies you watch, whatever.
[00:56:06] Yeah, the underdog.
[00:56:08] Yeah.
[00:56:10] So those are the leaders.
[00:56:12] They're going to capitalize on the power of revolutionary ideas.
[00:56:15] Is it even in marketing?
[00:56:17] Right, even in marketing people like this is a revolutionary new.
[00:56:21] Paraps sneakers are phone or whatever.
[00:56:24] Right.
[00:56:25] Everyone is attracted to that idea.
[00:56:27] Well, remember on Rambo first blood part two, this that time where he was hiding in the wall.
[00:56:34] Oh, yeah.
[00:56:35] It wasn't the wall.
[00:56:36] It was the mud wall, essentially, and then, you know, in Vietnam, whatever.
[00:56:40] And like he opened his eyes.
[00:56:42] You could only see his eye.
[00:56:43] And then he'd like undoes his fingers first.
[00:56:45] You know, then he comes out and kills everybody.
[00:56:47] That at the time was a revolutionary idea.
[00:56:50] Like, oh, he hid in the mud right there.
[00:56:52] That was kind of built the way he did it.
[00:56:53] You seems like.
[00:56:54] Right, they just, I think you just nailed it.
[00:56:57] But it's just captured all.
[00:56:58] Oh, yeah.
[00:56:59] They just captured all.
[00:57:00] Where else?
[00:57:02] Uh, combatants do the actual fighting and provide security.
[00:57:06] There's the political cadre.
[00:57:08] The cadre is the political core of the insurgency.
[00:57:11] They're actively engaged in the struggle to accomplish the insurgency goals.
[00:57:15] Auxilaries are active sympathizers, active sympathizers who provide important support services.
[00:57:23] And then you get the mass base.
[00:57:25] And these are followers of the insurgent movement supporting the populace.
[00:57:30] And again, so inside your organization, inside your team, you can identify who these people are when there's an insurgency going on.
[00:57:40] Right?
[00:57:41] There's the leaders of it.
[00:57:42] Kind of, guess, they have this advantage of.
[00:57:45] They're standing up to the man, right?
[00:57:46] They're revolutionary.
[00:57:47] They got a little advantage there.
[00:57:49] There's combatants that are actually going to try and make things happen.
[00:57:52] There's this cadre that's out there kind of, you know, run in their mouths and soings seeds of disc content.
[00:57:58] There's then there's sympathizers and the mass base.
[00:58:01] So if you can identify who these people are, you can realize what you need to do to disrupt this insurgency from happening.
[00:58:08] Then isn't it weird that as we talk about this, I just had this instinct right now.
[00:58:13] Even in my own head, right now as we're having this conversation, even I sympathize with the insurgency.
[00:58:20] I'm thinking about, oh, I got this new idea and the man and all that stuff.
[00:58:25] That's real.
[00:58:26] That's real stuff that you feel.
[00:58:31] Maybe I think it's because we're American or is it a global thing?
[00:58:35] Like, are we American that were raised?
[00:58:37] Hey, you know, we're Americans, we're revolutionary.
[00:58:40] We rebel against the king.
[00:58:42] Maybe made our own country.
[00:58:44] We won't stand for this kind of, you know what I mean?
[00:58:47] That's America.
[00:58:48] But the thing is it's universal.
[00:58:50] I feel like it's universal, yeah, because it's kind of like our need for balance.
[00:58:55] So you get like someone who just starts out, there's starting point as an underdog,
[00:58:59] whether it be in a movie or in life or just in any situation that you're presented with.
[00:59:04] If someone feels like an underdog, it just feels like an imbalance of some sort, power imbalance, whatever kind of imbalance.
[00:59:11] So we kind of, part of our mind, I think anyway, this is what it feels like when I, in the experience it.
[00:59:16] Part of your mind kind of wants it to be more balanced.
[00:59:20] We want him to get out of that underdog situation.
[00:59:24] So when he does, it's like it's almost like a feeling of satisfaction, you know?
[00:59:28] It's almost like it feels like justice or something like that.
[00:59:31] It's like it feels so unfair.
[00:59:33] I'm balanced at this.
[00:59:34] The empires.
[00:59:35] We just like see the dog went.
[00:59:37] Yeah, that's what it is.
[00:59:39] Why it is, I think.
[00:59:40] That's what it feels like.
[00:59:41] I guess that's the traditional heroic.
[00:59:43] That's what it is.
[00:59:45] That's the traditional, it's one of the traditional, whatever there are for heroic journeys.
[00:59:50] One of those heroic journeys is, you know, David and a lot of,
[00:59:53] a little guy stands up to the big guy and we all appreciate that.
[00:59:56] We're seeing Rocky Four.
[00:59:58] Which are I'll go, is that for you?
[01:00:00] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
[01:00:01] For sure.
[01:00:02] That was a good one.
[01:00:03] Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[01:00:05] Dynamics of an Insurgency, you got leadership objectives, ideology, environment, geography,
[01:00:10] external support and sanctuary, phasing and timing, leadership we know about.
[01:00:16] One thing they say is extreme decentralization results in a movement that rarely functions as a coherent body.
[01:00:23] So usually insurgency's are super decentralized, which means they have a hard time sort of coordinating mass movements together.
[01:00:34] Objectives, they got to have clear objectives.
[01:00:37] They got their ideology and narrative narratives, a word that gets thrown around all the time.
[01:00:44] What's the story that we're telling?
[01:00:46] Right, and how do we fit everything into the story that we're telling?
[01:00:53] Ideas are a motivating factor in insurgency, violence, insurgency's,
[01:00:57] gather recruits in a mass popular support through ideological appeal recruits are often young men suffering from frustrated hopes.
[01:01:04] And unable to improve their lot in life, it's what I just said.
[01:01:08] The insurgency group provides them identity purpose and community and addition to physical, economic and psychological security.
[01:01:15] I mean, how just blatantly obvious is that.
[01:01:19] The movement's ideology explains its followers tribulations and provides a course of action to remedy those ills.
[01:01:28] You know, yeah, man, again, back to that balanced thing, you know, where we kind of want that.
[01:01:35] Like, think about this too, where, okay, there's this place, I don't know where.
[01:01:39] I, I really, it wasn't Ireland, I don't think, I don't know, it was somewhere where you get like criminals, bad criminals, murders, like rapists type, guys or whatever,
[01:01:48] and the in jail, and it's not even called jail, I don't think.
[01:01:52] It's, it's essentially a rehab center, but in the rehab center, this is what you get. You get like pets and you get, it's essentially like a, for therapy to rehabilitate them.
[01:02:02] So there's punishment and then there's rehabilitation, right?
[01:02:05] They focus on no punishment, it's just rehabilitation and apparently from when I read it, whatever, it's like pretty successful.
[01:02:12] Here's the thing though, with that, it feels super unsatisfying.
[01:02:16] Because you get a guy who raped, you know, a lady, killed her, and then killed the husband or something like that, for example, he goes, no punishment.
[01:02:23] He goes to this place where he gets pets, he gets, um, he can hang with girls, he can, he can make friends, he gets, like, um, he learns, like, stuff, skills, and stuff like that.
[01:02:33] He doesn't, he's not locked in a cell, he's at a little, like, a little resort kind of thing.
[01:02:37] Even even murderers.
[01:02:39] Even murders, yeah.
[01:02:40] Yeah.
[01:02:41] 100%.
[01:02:41] So yeah, there's no punishment part of it.
[01:02:43] So where's the no satisfaction coming?
[01:02:46] But if that, the person, the victim of this criminal is like, your wife or something, and this guy gets to go to a resort, you're saying they, the victims have no satisfaction seeing this rehabilitation.
[01:02:58] Exactly.
[01:02:59] They want to go blood for blood.
[01:03:00] Yeah, it seems like that imbalance still remains because this guy gets to improve his life after he killed my wife.
[01:03:07] Me and one.
[01:03:08] Well, sure, it's murderers and everything.
[01:03:09] Yeah, that's what I read.
[01:03:10] That's why two of you are so problematic.
[01:03:12] I don't know how well that would work here.
[01:03:13] Yeah.
[01:03:14] Because you get some, you get some vengeance going down.
[01:03:16] Oh, yeah.
[01:03:17] But here was the thing in the point of the article was that there was, like, the, what do you call it when you go back to, like, you go to jail and then you get out, then you go back to jail.
[01:03:27] It's like, we're going back to the city going back to jail.
[01:03:30] Yeah.
[01:03:31] A recidivism.
[01:03:32] Yes, like relapse kind of thing.
[01:03:34] Yeah.
[01:03:35] The rate was so astronomically good that no one went back to jail.
[01:03:40] It was like that.
[01:03:41] It was like it was so effective at rehabilitating the person.
[01:03:44] But meanwhile, when you think about it, man, there's still this massive imbalance.
[01:03:48] So people wouldn't be very happy with that.
[01:03:50] You seem saying.
[01:03:51] Yeah.
[01:03:52] But as a society, like as a whole, as far as groups, as far as criminals getting rehabilitated, which, I mean, how can you be against criminals being rehabilitated?
[01:03:58] Yeah.
[01:03:59] It's hard to be against that, you know.
[01:04:00] But we still don't get that satisfaction.
[01:04:02] We need that, you know.
[01:04:03] It's like that imbalance.
[01:04:04] Yeah.
[01:04:05] Well, I just, back to this here, just this idea that you have.
[01:04:09] And it, it says, you know, young men.
[01:04:15] You know, that's who we're talking about.
[01:04:17] We're talking about young men that are, that are unable to improve their lot in life.
[01:04:22] And this is how, how you end up with these people getting drawn into these super, usually extremists type organizations.
[01:04:32] The most powerful ideologies tap.
[01:04:35] Layton emotive concerns of the populace, such as the desire for justice, religious beliefs, or liberation from foreign occupation.
[01:04:45] Ideologies provide a prison, including a vocabulary and analytical categories through which the situation is assessed.
[01:04:52] Thus ideology can shape the movement's organization and operational method.
[01:04:56] You know, it's interesting.
[01:04:57] You start tracking on that.
[01:04:59] What do they call it here?
[01:05:01] Vocab just vocabularies, what they call it, but you know, you track any sort of organization that's out there that sort of has a.
[01:05:09] You know, you look at some, some things you know, that's kind of got a weird culty feeling to it.
[01:05:14] One of the main things that gives something a culty feeling is when you hear the vocabulary that's all being used and it's all.
[01:05:23] Not just used, but it's used as like this weird kind of way to answer any questions and say,
[01:05:30] any questions and circular arguments and always comes back to these things and you're like, well, this is getting kind of funky over here.
[01:05:36] Yeah.
[01:05:37] Well, yeah.
[01:05:38] Very strange.
[01:05:41] Um,
[01:05:42] Environment geography, external support and sanctuaries.
[01:05:46] These are all just really getting into some of the details.
[01:05:48] I will stop at this one.
[01:05:50] No phasing and timing and surgencies often pass through common phases of development, not all.
[01:05:55] In surgencies experience such phase development and progression through all phases is not a requirement for success.
[01:06:01] So there's different phases that you can go through and like I said earlier, and this way you got to pay attention.
[01:06:07] You don't have to go through every phase.
[01:06:09] You don't start at phase one and go to phase two and then you defeated at phase three.
[01:06:13] No, you can talk about phase two.
[01:06:15] You defeat phase two, they go back to phase one.
[01:06:17] Then you take all I think we're in control of the negative two again.
[01:06:20] Then they go back and forth.
[01:06:21] You got to pay attention to that.
[01:06:23] Talks about insurgent networks.
[01:06:27] Here's some of those insurgent vulnerabilities.
[01:06:31] Seekersy because they got to keep a secret.
[01:06:33] Sometimes they have trouble getting the word out there.
[01:06:36] Mobilization it can be hard for them to to mobilize support.
[01:06:42] For a couple reasons.
[01:06:47] One of the things they talk about here is to mobilize their base support and surgeon groups.
[01:06:51] The post-commodation of propaganda intimidation and they may overreach in both counter insurgents should be able to use information operations to
[01:06:59] effectively exploit in the insurgents message as well as their excessive uses of force for intimidation.
[01:07:06] So definitely in Iraq the insurgents went overboard in trying to intimidate people and it pissed off the local populace.
[01:07:16] And it definitely pissed off the shakes in the battle of Romadi. Like they got pissed.
[01:07:21] And some of them left fled, some got scared, but some got mad.
[01:07:25] And the local populace was saying, when I, as soon as they saw that there was enough American presence and Iraqi government presence to say,
[01:07:34] OK, thank you for being here. We'll help you get these back.
[01:07:36] Get bad guys out. They were on board.
[01:07:39] Financial weakness. It's tough for them to find funding internal divisions.
[01:07:46] This is an important one to pay attention to counter insurgents must remain alert for signs of divisions within an insurgent movement.
[01:07:54] Again, when you're dealing with a group of people and they're all masked against you,
[01:08:00] look for those cracks. Look for ways that they're not sort of in unison.
[01:08:07] And if you can exploit and expand those cracks, all of a sudden you can break down that their unification, which is a positive thing.
[01:08:14] And again, I have this little guilty thing in the back of my head that's I got.
[01:08:18] I don't want to break down the rebels.
[01:08:22] Because I've been programmed by Star Wars to support the rebels.
[01:08:25] And by the American Revolutionary War, that's why I identify with, we identify with the rebels.
[01:08:31] You know, tell you an example of that. You've watched the matrix. And I know this is an arm rule. You know, you have this.
[01:08:38] I've watched it. I like saw it one time in the theater. So I don't remember much about it.
[01:08:44] So there's this guy, African his name.
[01:08:47] The guy from bad boys. Anyway, you know him, he's actor.
[01:08:52] He definitely knows.
[01:08:54] He's not, what does his name not a pop? Anyway, it doesn't matter. So basically he's, so you know what the matrix is about right.
[01:09:03] Everyone's plugged in the matrix. And then meanwhile, more fierce, Lawrence Fishburn, more fierce saves all these people from the matrix, right?
[01:09:10] And the real reality is not the only thing I remember this whole movie is when I think the main character says,
[01:09:19] I know jujitsu. I don't remember.
[01:09:24] Trying to get that download. Yeah, you got that. Yeah, for sure.
[01:09:27] So more of he's plugged everyone out of the matrix. Matrix is like everyday life.
[01:09:32] You know, I'm just looking at the job and whatever you're living life or whatever, when you get plugged out of the matrix, the real reality is a straight up dystopia straight up.
[01:09:39] Machines running everything. You're living in, you know, in a post-apocalyptic times.
[01:09:44] So this one guy, it starts to weigh on him apparently and he's like, I don't even like this. I kind of like to better in the matrix being ignorant.
[01:09:52] So he ends up teaming with the agents, which is like the agents of the matrix.
[01:09:58] Correct, right.
[01:09:59] Is it roll or up?
[01:10:00] And be trained in the rebels. That's what that is right there that when you can, you find little slight divisions and then you exploit on, you know?
[01:10:07] And he ran the risk of bringing down the whole team. Same same way, which team? You know, more fierce in the team.
[01:10:15] But he wanted to do that, right? Yeah. Yeah. So he didn't run the risk. He could have.
[01:10:20] Yeah.
[01:10:21] Wasn't a risk to him. He wanted to.
[01:10:22] Yeah, yeah.
[01:10:23] I'm sorry.
[01:10:24] Did he take the blue pill? Is that right?
[01:10:26] No, he wish. He said, and this is what indicates that there was a fracture in it just a little bit of a division.
[01:10:32] When he, it was like one of the early scenes with him, he was talking to Neil, the main character.
[01:10:37] And he was like, you're thinking this on paraphrasing. He's like, why didn't I take the blue pill?
[01:10:44] He was like saying, oh, I know what you're thinking. You're thinking that.
[01:10:47] I mean, what I don't know if that's what you, you know, the blue pill is like you stay in the matrix.
[01:10:51] Right.
[01:10:51] Red pill is you see, you know? So basically he was indicating that he was sort of thinking of like that he regretted it a little bit kind of thing.
[01:10:59] You know, that was like the little fracture that they showed in the story.
[01:11:02] But then yeah. So yeah, they almost lost.
[01:11:05] But you know, matrix or more fiascent Neil, they're very powerful.
[01:11:10] They were able to keep it real.
[01:11:16] This is the Hollywood podcast with echo Charles and echo Charles aspects of the counter surgery.
[01:11:24] This is, so all that kind of it. I hate to say that was like the introduction, but this is where we get into aspects of counter insurgency.
[01:11:32] This is how we actually overcome the insurgency.
[01:11:38] You know, once every case, the counter insurgent faces a popular containing an active minority supporting a government and a similar militant faction opposing it.
[01:11:49] And they kind of lay out, oh, it looks pretty much like a bell curve. Whatever the cause, there will be an active minority that totally supports the cause.
[01:11:59] There'll be a neutral or passive. That's the majority of people are just, hey, we don't really care.
[01:12:04] And then you've got an active minority against the cause, which this is something important to think about in life, especially in, well, like right now in America, that you, who do you hear from?
[01:12:15] You hear from the two way far extreme ends of the spectrum. Everyone else is just, you know, just trying to live a life and do the right thing and feels, you know, consider things sort of as a group, you know, like all pretty much the same.
[01:12:32] Hey, this is, yeah, this makes sense. This doesn't make sense. This is smart. This isn't smart.
[01:12:38] And then there's people on the spectrums, I mean, on the outside of the spectrum that are jumping up and down screaming and getting crazy. They are not the majority of humans. They're small number of people.
[01:12:51] But boy, they make a lot of noise. They call them what the vocal minority. Yeah. Yeah.
[01:12:57] Yeah. I think some, some majority was Nixon originally said that.
[01:13:05] Upon assuming coin mission soldiers and Marines must not only be prepared to identify their opponents and approaches to insurgency. They are applying counter insurgency must also understand the broader strategic context within which they're operating.
[01:13:19] So you need to think about the bigger picture. Obviously.
[01:13:25] Historical principles.
[01:13:28] Number one. Legitimacy is the main objective. The primary objective of any counter insurgeon is to foster the development of effective governance by legitimate government.
[01:13:46] All governments rule through a combination of consent and coercion.
[01:13:53] Now think about that from the leadership perspective. All leaders just think of, I said, all leaders rule through a combination of consent and coercion. That makes sense, right?
[01:14:01] Coirs and people do and they're consenting, they're saying, okay, we'll do it. Governments described as legitimate rule primarily with the consent of the governed.
[01:14:14] All those rule does illegitimate tend to mainly rely on coercion, like making and forcing people do things, which you probably heard me say this,
[01:14:24] an echelon front events, you know, when I, I'm always saying, well, I never really had to order anyone to do anything.
[01:14:32] We would just kind of talk about it and things would happen.
[01:14:36] Why? Because I was legitimately in these positions.
[01:14:40] I was just, I got, I have the rank and that's why I'm in a position like, no, I have some experience. I listen to other people like, that's what's good.
[01:14:50] Citizens obey the state. Oh, this is talking about the illegitimate. So if you're an illegitimate leader, the citizens obey the state for fear of the consequences of doing otherwise,
[01:15:01] rather than because they voluntarily accept a rule, a government that derives its power from the governed tends to be accepted by the citizens as legitimate.
[01:15:11] So if you're, if you're elected, right? If that's where you got your power from, then it's usually considered a legitimate.
[01:15:17] It still uses coercion, for example, against criminals, but the bulk of the population voluntarily accepts its governance.
[01:15:24] In Western liberal tradition, a government that derives its just powers from the people and response to the desires while looking out for their welfare is accepted as legitimate.
[01:15:34] So that's your goal as a leader.
[01:15:36] And any time that you rely on a leader, on your rank, on your authority, on your power, any time you're doing that, you're taking away from your legitimacy.
[01:15:45] Legitimate legitimacy makes it easier for the state to carry out its key functions, which include the capability to regulate social relationships, extract resources and appropriate and appropriate or use resources in determined ways.
[01:16:04] That is not legitimate isn't inherently unstable because as soon as the state's coercive powers disrupted the population ceases to obey it. This is when you hear me talking about, hey, you might be, you know, if I, if I bark and if I'm your boss and I say echo you better wear your gloves when you're in this compound.
[01:16:24] Or I'm going to fire you, right? You're going to do it, but when I'm not there, you're not going to do it.
[01:16:33] So so this is why that type of leadership doesn't work coercive leadership threatening people. That's why it doesn't work. It's not freaking legitimate.
[01:16:51] The leaders of legitimacy can be used to analyze frequent selection of leaders in a manner considered just in fair by a substantial majority of the population.
[01:17:01] That includes promotions, right? If people are getting promoted for good reasons that makes sense, then they're considered to be more legitimate. A high level of popular participation in or support for the political process, a low level of corruption.
[01:17:19] And you as a leader do things that you know are right.
[01:17:23] When you make little maneuvers that you shouldn't be making, guess what?
[01:17:28] Your level of legitimacy goes down, you need to maintain a high ground, a culturally acceptable level or rate of political economic and social development, a high level of regime acceptance by major social institutions.
[01:17:44] Governments that score high in these categories probably have the support of an adequate majority of population. As as leaders that score well in these areas are also going to have a high level of support.
[01:18:00] Military action can address these symptoms of a loss of legitimacy. However, restoring legitimacy can only be accomplished using all instruments of national power without the host nation government achieving legitimacy, coin cannot succeed.
[01:18:20] So you can beat people down all day long. That doesn't give you legitimacy. You can solve tactical problems with military might with brute force.
[01:18:32] Doesn't help you.
[01:18:35] Do you can't win with that?
[01:18:38] In a crazy, you think this big military manual, you cannot win with just military force. You cannot beat someone in this submission. It doesn't work. Well, it doesn't work on a long term scale.
[01:18:53] A couple of other things here. Unity of effort is essential. That's true with any leadership. Political factors are primary. One of the generals from Mousée Dung's central committee, one stated that revolutionary war was 80% political action and 20% military action. 80% of it is a political action. 80% of it is maneuvering.
[01:19:22] Understand the local environment you have to do this. Here's a couple. The local population is critical center of gravity of an insurgency.
[01:19:32] Successful conduct of counterinsurgency operation depends on thoroughly understanding the society and culture within which they're being conducted.
[01:19:40] The main thing is to understand the following about the population area in the area of operations. How key groups of society are organized, relationships and tensions above them ideologies and narratives that resonate with the groups.
[01:19:52] Group interests and motivations means by which groups communicate the society's leadership system. And what's so funny about this is.
[01:20:04] The national on front when we go and consult with a company, these are the things that we're trying to figure out during our assessment phase. We're trying to figure out, okay, we figured out how their task organized, what's the one they set up like.
[01:20:16] Then we start going one of the relationships where the tensions.
[01:20:20] What narratives resonate with the group with the different groups, right? You got the front line leaders that are saying, oh, they never do that. You got the senior leadership that's saying, oh, what would they know.
[01:20:32] You see what I'm saying there's the narratives that we're trying to group interest and motivations. You got to know what those are.
[01:20:37] It means by which the groups communicate. How do they actually talk to each other? Is there an open line of communication? So these are all things that we look at to figure out how we fix leadership inside of a company.
[01:20:49] Do you do that because like, did you get that straight from here? Or do you just happen to do that and boom this, apparently?
[01:20:58] Well, we don't just happen to do that in order to solve the problems inside of a company. You have to understand these things.
[01:21:06] You, you knew that for sure. Yes. Yes. But did you get it from that? I get what you're saying. No, I didn't get it from that.
[01:21:13] But when you know the way broadly, you see it and all things. And I'm sure as I work with companies, you start saying, well, how's your relationship with that department over there?
[01:21:25] And so, so explain to me what you think, where you think the company's going, right? What's the narrative? Just lines up because you have to figure these things out.
[01:21:36] Do you go in kind of like good cop, bad cop? You know, when you don't have to, you don't have to cop, you don't have to cop, because
[01:21:44] everybody knows that we're there to help. Right? There's no, we're not trying to bust them. We're trying to help. Right? Yes. People tell us everything that they, you know, they, they're very open and honest with us.
[01:21:56] Yeah. Do you, do you ever do like little slie things like, and I guess I shouldn't say, slie because you know how like if you're really trying to ask
[01:22:05] this question, but you can't just come out and ask that question because you can't expect them to just come out and give you that straight dope answer. You so you kind of ask these other questions to kind of get a
[01:22:15] What you want to know is are there interrogation tactics that are being utilized when interviewing the personnel that we are consulted.
[01:22:21] That's your question. Yes, of course. You know, but I mean, it's not there, you're right that they're not slie.
[01:22:29] It's like we're getting information from people that they want to tell us. It's not it's not we don't have to set them up or
[01:22:37] Coers them to say things or we don't have to. We talk to them. Yeah. Here's the advantage that we have is people want their company to be successful.
[01:22:47] And so when you ask them, hey, what works well, they tell you when you say, hey, are there any issues? They tell you because they want they want to have those issues fixed.
[01:22:56] And the easiest part of the job is gathering this information. Knowing what information to gather is important, but the easiest part of the job is gathering this information because people are over there just they're just more than happy to tell us what's going on.
[01:23:10] Yeah, makes sense.
[01:23:12] Couple things that are required of soldiers and marines at every echelon when you when you need to know about the cultural context.
[01:23:26] You got to have a clear nuanced and empathetic appreciation of the essential nature of the conflict.
[01:23:33] So you got to hear and listen to both sides. Wouldn't that it does not make sense.
[01:23:39] Yeah, and essentially like had some understanding.
[01:23:43] Like, hey, and empathy. Yeah, yeah, like I could see how you think that I could see where you're coming from.
[01:23:49] Yeah, that's a good idea to have in your head for life or living for being a human.
[01:23:56] It's so true. Like the idea that like someone just doesn't get where that person's coming from.
[01:24:03] It's almost like, but that's just because a lack of effort, you know?
[01:24:07] And here's the deal. You're missing out.
[01:24:11] You're missing out. If I argue with you and I don't listen to what you're saying and I don't see what your viewpoint is, there's no way I can defeat you in an argument.
[01:24:19] I don't understand you. How can I defeat you in an argument? Unless I understand where you're coming from.
[01:24:24] And not necessarily even defeat you. How can I find a solution if I don't understand where you're coming from?
[01:24:30] I'm not looking defeat you in an argument. That's what you do when you're 20.
[01:24:34] That's what you do when you're 23 defeat people in arguments.
[01:24:37] When you're hopefully by the time you're 48 like me, you actually don't want to defeat someone you want to find a solution.
[01:24:46] There's a lot of arguing that happens. Just broadly.
[01:24:51] I mean, right now we're seeing it all day long every day in the emotional media, social media, mainstream media.
[01:24:57] It's just total, no listening, all talking, no perspective, no empathy.
[01:25:04] It's, well, I shouldn't say no because there are a lot of people that are actually listening.
[01:25:09] Trying to figure out what the solution is.
[01:25:11] But, but many people, they don't want to try and figure out what the solution is.
[01:25:14] They want to defeat the other person in an argument, which is so pointless.
[01:25:18] So then you need to understand the motivation strengths and weaknesses of the insurgents.
[01:25:26] That's obviously important.
[01:25:29] You want to conduct intelligence drives driven operations.
[01:25:33] And meaning we want to actually pay attention to what's going on when a gather good intel.
[01:25:38] I slate insurgents from their cause and support.
[01:25:43] Smart move.
[01:25:46] A stabless security under the rule of law, the cornerstone of any coin effort is security for the civilian population.
[01:25:53] And this is probably the number two line that I stole from this.
[01:25:58] Thank you General Mattis. Thank you General Patreis because when I had to start discussing up the chain of command.
[01:26:05] What we were doing, why were we doing it?
[01:26:07] It was this line right here.
[01:26:09] The cornerstone of any counter insurgency effort is security for the civilian populace.
[01:26:16] Because what we were doing, task in a bruiser, was going out and killing bad guys in order to protect the civilian populace.
[01:26:26] And that right there is the cornerstone of counter insurgency.
[01:26:32] So we were able to just get all of our missions approved up the chain of command because what we were doing was in support of the cornerstone of counter insurgency.
[01:26:46] Thank you for getting those chapters out early enough that I had this to lean on.
[01:26:54] illegitimate actions, this is just some illegitimate actions by government officials, security forces and multinational partners are those involving the use of power without authority.
[01:27:06] Oh wow.
[01:27:08] Power without authority.
[01:27:11] When you use power without authority or you abuse power, you illegitimize yourself.
[01:27:22] Every action by counter insurgency leaves a forensic trace that may need to be used in a court of law.
[01:27:30] Counter insurgency's document all the activities to preserve whatever possible a chain of evidence and more importantly, as it means to insurgent propaganda.
[01:27:41] This is epic and I'll tell you why.
[01:27:46] Because inside businesses you make some little move, you make some little move and you think no one's going to know it.
[01:27:58] But it leaves a forensic trace.
[01:28:02] And that's just a different way of saying, you know, I am always telling people everyone's watching you and if you try and lie to them, they know it.
[01:28:10] That's what's happening. That's 100% what's happening. You try and lie to somebody, they know it. You try and make a maneuver on somebody.
[01:28:18] There's a forensic trace and they know it. Don't do your little maneuvers to try and take care of yourself.
[01:28:26] Prepare for a long term commitment.
[01:28:30] Back to that protracted war idea.
[01:28:36] Contemporary imperatives of counter insurgency.
[01:28:41] Manage information and expectations.
[01:28:45] Achieving steady progress towards a set of reasonable expectations can increase the population's tolerance for the inevitable.
[01:28:51] Inconvenience entailed by ongoing counter insurgency operations.
[01:28:55] So just setting good expectations.
[01:28:58] Setting good realistic expectations and then moving towards them so that you can look around at the team and say, hey, look, we're making progress.
[01:29:05] This is where we're going and this is how we're getting there. We're making progress.
[01:29:09] Both the insurgency and the host government ensure that their deeds match their words.
[01:29:17] Do what you say, say what you do.
[01:29:20] Here's the other thing that triggered me into talking about this.
[01:29:23] Use measured force.
[01:29:28] Any use of force generates a series of reactions. There may be times when an overwhelming effort is necessary to intimidate an opponent or reassure the populace.
[01:29:38] But the type and amount of force to be applied and who wields it should be carefully calculated by a counter insertion for any operation.
[01:29:46] An operation that kills five insurgences counterproductive.
[01:29:50] If the collateral damage of the creation of blood fuels or the creation of blood feuds leads to the recruitment of 50 more.
[01:30:00] Now this was a little bit strange because there was some of that idea that, oh, every time you kill an insurgen, you create five more.
[01:30:11] I would definitely hear that. I didn't see it.
[01:30:15] What I actually saw was the opposite when we would kill an insurgen, the local populace would be like, okay, it was they got involved and they got braver.
[01:30:25] They got tougher. They gave us more support.
[01:30:27] What did they say that? What was their thought?
[01:30:30] The thought is, hey, you know, if you kill, if you, they see you kill, you know, some kid, some family member, right?
[01:30:42] Some family member gets killed and you think, okay, well, we just created news five brothers and now they're mad.
[01:30:49] But actually, oftentimes it was like, hey, don't follow what Freddie did.
[01:30:55] We know what we know he was doing bad stuff and he got killed and they kind of got it.
[01:31:02] And I'll tell you what, they also, to a huge extent understood collateral damage.
[01:31:09] The local populace understood collateral damage.
[01:31:13] So if we blew up a building or blew up a door and we entered a building and it shattered the windows and it turns out that we, you know, it was either the wrong building or whatever.
[01:31:24] And we'd say, okay, you know what, hey, here's a bunch of, we'd give them a bunch of money.
[01:31:27] We'd apologize, we'd say what happened, explain to them.
[01:31:30] And they would be like, yeah, well, you are at war.
[01:31:33] Yeah, you know, they, and they would, and this is how I know that this is real.
[01:31:39] Is it give us information?
[01:31:41] Yeah.
[01:31:41] They'd say, oh, yeah, I know you're looking for, you're looking for that guy.
[01:31:45] Yeah, he's, he's been gone for two weeks.
[01:31:47] Yeah.
[01:31:47] And then we'd say, yeah, thanks, but we know it's our fault.
[01:31:51] Here's some money.
[01:31:52] Yeah.
[01:31:52] It's weird how like to hear it, you know, because you know, you get whether it be reports or like, you just heard from someone someone who has a different,
[01:32:01] I don't want to say agenda necessarily, but, you know, like if someone's against the war or something, like that's kind of their, their deal, you know, so they're kind of trying to input, not input.
[01:32:10] They're trying to convince that.
[01:32:12] And I don't want to paint this, you know, beautiful picture because obviously there's obviously, there's obviously times where, you know, there's one of those brother gets killed.
[01:32:20] And one of the other brothers says, I'm going to go avenge, you know, go avenge.
[01:32:24] But you know what, it's think about in a family, right?
[01:32:30] The mom and dad, there's four brothers.
[01:32:33] One of the, one of the brothers is out doing insurgent stuff.
[01:32:38] And he gets killed.
[01:32:40] Yeah.
[01:32:40] The mom and dad are looking at the other brothers going, hey, do not go and do what your brother does that happen all the time?
[01:32:48] No, not all the time.
[01:32:49] Sometimes the, you know, the dad says, well, avenge, you know, we're go avenge your brother.
[01:32:53] Right.
[01:32:54] Not usually.
[01:32:55] Yeah.
[01:32:56] And then yeah, the point is to where you, you, from the outside, you kind of hear someone's argument and you, and you kind of like, well, that makes sense.
[01:33:03] Yeah, just like you said, where you, where it's like, yeah, the brother got killed.
[01:33:07] If you're probably got killed, you would at the very least have some feelings of vengeance.
[01:33:11] It's a very least.
[01:33:12] Not to mention people who live in a war zone who are down for the fight a lot of the time, right?
[01:33:16] You're going to see their brother get killed.
[01:33:17] They're like, hell, yeah, I'm going to come avenge.
[01:33:19] That, that does it.
[01:33:21] It's sick out as a lie to me.
[01:33:22] It's so, yeah, and it is true. The problem is it's very simplified.
[01:33:26] Yeah, right?
[01:33:27] Because because what's really happened, what's really happening is the dad is going, hey, do you remember Saddam Hussein?
[01:33:35] He was horrible.
[01:33:36] These Americans came and kicked his ass and got him out of here and, and now we're moving in the right direction now.
[01:33:42] You want to go fight them.
[01:33:44] What's wrong with you?
[01:33:45] And then that guy gets up and killed.
[01:33:46] And the girls looks at the brothers said, you see what happens?
[01:33:48] Yeah.
[01:33:49] Yeah.
[01:33:49] And see, and when you explain that, you're kind of like, well, that makes sense.
[01:33:51] It's really easy just to stereotype and throw everyone with a broad brush and say,
[01:33:56] Oh, they're, they, everyone thinks like this.
[01:33:59] Yeah.
[01:34:00] It's totally not true, man.
[01:34:01] Even in a family, there'd be some kids would be insurgents, some kids wouldn't.
[01:34:05] Yeah.
[01:34:06] And that's not to mention like some of the terror that these normal families have been, you know,
[01:34:10] Absolutely.
[01:34:11] inflicted on them.
[01:34:12] And then it's like,
[01:34:14] Yeah.
[01:34:16] Okay.
[01:34:17] When you say they understand collateral damage,
[01:34:19] just kind of like, the way you said is almost like, and which is actually correct from my perspective,
[01:34:24] where it sounds obvious, everyone understands collateral damage.
[01:34:29] You know, like, everyone kind of understands that, you know,
[01:34:32] but so why would we assume that they don't?
[01:34:34] Like everyone should do your thing.
[01:34:36] Exactly.
[01:34:36] So when you say, you're like, well, of course we do humanize.
[01:34:40] Yeah.
[01:34:40] We do humanize that local populist and think that, oh, they're just,
[01:34:43] Here's a common emotion.
[01:34:46] You blew up my door.
[01:34:47] I'm mad.
[01:34:49] I'm going to fight you now.
[01:34:50] When it's really, when actually you're dealing with human beings,
[01:34:52] and we people forget that we're dealing with human beings that are smart,
[01:34:56] and they think, oh, you blew up their door.
[01:34:58] Now they're going to want to plan a roadside bomb.
[01:35:00] No.
[01:35:01] Actually when you've all of their door and you say, hey, we're looking for this guy.
[01:35:04] And he wasn't here.
[01:35:05] Do you know where he is?
[01:35:06] Yeah.
[01:35:07] He's been gone for two weeks.
[01:35:08] Hey, sorry about your door.
[01:35:09] Here's some money.
[01:35:10] By the way, we're going to set a team out here and be hang a new door for you,
[01:35:13] which we did.
[01:35:14] Yeah.
[01:35:15] And they go, yeah, appreciate it.
[01:35:17] You know, please, please let your friends know that there's no bad guys that live here.
[01:35:21] And by the way, the only problems we've had on the street is that building down there.
[01:35:25] There's been some people in and out of there.
[01:35:27] You might want to keep an eye on it.
[01:35:28] Yeah.
[01:35:29] Okay, cool. Thank you.
[01:35:30] Yeah.
[01:35:30] And see, even hearing that, it's like, brother, that makes sense.
[01:35:32] In fact, that sounds more likely if you were in that situation.
[01:35:35] That's what I'm saying.
[01:35:36] So this idea that every time one, you know, you kill a person,
[01:35:41] you kill a bad guy, that now five more.
[01:35:44] That's totally untrue.
[01:35:45] And not to mention, there's some people that, oh, shh,
[01:35:48] I don't want to go get involved with that.
[01:35:50] Right?
[01:35:51] Yeah.
[01:35:52] I mean, that's what they say, there's a high deterrence level.
[01:35:55] There's a very strong deterrence level because what people missed out on is just the,
[01:36:01] like you said.
[01:36:02] And the way I always explain Iraqi families, I'm like, oh, you wanted to know an Iraqi family is like,
[01:36:06] they're like a family.
[01:36:07] Yeah.
[01:36:08] They're like a family.
[01:36:09] And there's, be, you know, the dad's got this and the mom's got this going on and the kids.
[01:36:13] They've got a rebellious kid, right?
[01:36:15] You go into one of the rooms,
[01:36:16] there's like weird pictures of whatever,
[01:36:19] Iraqi movie stars, music stars,
[01:36:23] and like, they're just people.
[01:36:26] And we just paint them with this broad brush of how we think
[01:36:32] they will react or how we've been told that they'll react.
[01:36:36] And it's just not true. God,
[01:36:43] a learner and a dapped.
[01:36:45] Oh, before I go there, who wields force?
[01:36:47] Who wields force is also important?
[01:36:49] Providing the police have a reasonable reputation
[01:36:52] for confidence and impartiality.
[01:36:54] It is better to let police and these are police
[01:36:56] that are local police handle urban raids,
[01:37:00] rather than soldiers and Marines, even if the police are not
[01:37:02] as well armed or as capable as military units,
[01:37:05] since the populous is likely to view
[01:37:07] that application of force as more legitimate.
[01:37:09] So you want the Iraqis to handle their own problems.
[01:37:12] Now, in Romadi, there was what made it tricky
[01:37:15] is a lot of the Iraqi army soldiers,
[01:37:18] were Shia and the local populist in Romadi,
[01:37:21] was Sunni.
[01:37:22] That's why as quickly as we could,
[01:37:23] we got the Sunni policeman, Iraqi policeman
[01:37:27] that were from Romadi to start doing these kind of things.
[01:37:30] Because there was more.
[01:37:31] In some cases, not in all cases,
[01:37:33] in some cases there was more tension
[01:37:35] between the Shia soldiers and the local populist
[01:37:40] than it was between the Americans and the local populist.
[01:37:45] Learn and adapt, an effective counter-insurgent force
[01:37:48] is a learning organization, right?
[01:37:49] Back to our podcast we did with Dave Burke.
[01:37:55] Good deal, Dave.
[01:37:58] Empower the lowest levels.
[01:38:01] Mission command is the conduct of military operations
[01:38:05] through decentralized execution based upon mission orders
[01:38:09] for effective mission accomplishment.
[01:38:12] What does that mean?
[01:38:14] It means higher commanders and power subordinates
[01:38:16] to make decision with the commanders intent.
[01:38:18] They leave details of execution to their subordinates
[01:38:20] and require them to use initiative
[01:38:22] and judgment to accomplish the mission.
[01:38:24] Decentralized command, thank you.
[01:38:25] Support the host nation.
[01:38:31] And one, the little part I wanted to pull out
[01:38:34] of this support the host nation thing is
[01:38:38] American forces committed to coin
[01:38:39] are there to assist a host government.
[01:38:42] The long-term goal is to leave a host
[01:38:44] that is capable of standing on its own too feet.
[01:38:46] To feet.
[01:38:47] In that end, the host nation has to win its own war.
[01:38:53] Achieving this requires the development of violence,
[01:38:55] local leaders and institutions.
[01:38:58] U.S. forces and agencies can help
[01:39:00] but host nation elements must be able
[01:39:02] to accept responsibility to achieve real victory.
[01:39:05] And then it goes on to warn that you can't be the easy button.
[01:39:10] When something needs to happen, you can say,
[01:39:11] okay, well, where America is?
[01:39:12] We can make that happen.
[01:39:13] No, you need to actually not be the easy button.
[01:39:18] And,
[01:39:21] it's one of the last sections here.
[01:39:22] It's called paradoxes of the counterinsurgency,
[01:39:27] which if I would have named this section,
[01:39:29] what have been called the dichotomies of counterinsurgency,
[01:39:32] but you know what we're saying.
[01:39:35] Principles and imperatives discussed above reveal
[01:39:38] that coin presents a complex and often unfamiliar set
[01:39:42] of missions and considerations for military commander.
[01:39:44] In many ways, the conduct of the counterinsurgency
[01:39:46] is counterintuitive to a traditional American view of war.
[01:39:50] And that right there, that statement is why
[01:39:52] I'm saying, if you're gonna start to overlay
[01:39:56] warfare principles in your business and your life,
[01:40:00] you need to also include counterinsurgency in there
[01:40:03] because sometimes they're counterintuitive,
[01:40:06] sometimes they're different than traditionally
[01:40:08] the way you think of war.
[01:40:09] And I think this attitude, this whole attitude
[01:40:13] is so important to be able to take war fighting
[01:40:17] and overlay it into other scenarios.
[01:40:20] If you only know how to fight a conventional war of attrition,
[01:40:24] you can't overlay those principles
[01:40:27] over either rest of your life.
[01:40:28] They won't work all the time.
[01:40:30] They're not nuanced enough.
[01:40:31] They don't understand.
[01:40:32] They don't understand the complexities.
[01:40:34] And one of those complexities is there's paradoxes
[01:40:38] and there's dichotomies.
[01:40:43] Number one, the more you protect your force,
[01:40:45] the less secure you are. What does that mean?
[01:40:52] Do you have to take risks?
[01:40:55] And when you take risks, when you get outside the wire,
[01:40:59] when you go work with a local populist,
[01:41:01] the more secure you'll end up being.
[01:41:04] So as a leader, if you stay locked up in your office,
[01:41:07] you feel like you're safe in there
[01:41:08] because you're not out there getting engaged with people,
[01:41:12] I'm not gonna ask tough questions, the less secure you are.
[01:41:17] You need to get out there.
[01:41:19] Next one, the more force used, the less effective it is.
[01:41:22] Boom, when you're barking orders,
[01:41:25] when you're yelling at people,
[01:41:27] when you're saying you better do this or all fire you,
[01:41:29] whatever those things are, the more force you use as a leader,
[01:41:33] the less effective it is.
[01:41:34] When you use the minimum force required,
[01:41:36] that's the most powerful.
[01:41:38] The next is the more successful,
[01:41:40] the more the more the force that can be used
[01:41:43] and the more risk that must be accepted.
[01:41:47] So as you proceed down the path,
[01:41:50] you need to use less and less force
[01:41:52] and you have to take more and more risk, which is crazy.
[01:41:58] The initial reaction to the counter insurgency push
[01:42:02] and Ramadi was, enemy attacks are going up
[01:42:05] and American casualties are going up.
[01:42:07] And guess what?
[01:42:08] There's true. So some people up the chain of command,
[01:42:13] not my chain of, well, yes, all up the chain of command.
[01:42:16] Everyone was saying, wait, there's more,
[01:42:18] what's happening?
[01:42:19] There's more enemy attacks and there's more American casualties.
[01:42:21] This isn't working.
[01:42:22] No, actually, that's exactly what's gonna happen.
[01:42:30] Sometimes doing nothing is the best reaction.
[01:42:34] Often an insurgent carries out a terrorist or gorilla act
[01:42:38] with a primary purpose of enticing the counter insurgent
[01:42:42] to overreact or at least react in a way
[01:42:44] that can be exploited.
[01:42:45] If a careful assessment of the effects
[01:42:47] of a course of action concludes that more negative
[01:42:50] than positive effects will result,
[01:42:52] an alternative should be considered potentially
[01:42:54] including a decision not to act.
[01:42:56] Now this is, you know, default aggressive.
[01:42:59] This is not default aggressive.
[01:43:00] Hmm, bias for action.
[01:43:03] This is not taking action, but default aggressive
[01:43:05] and bias for action, bias for action
[01:43:07] what the Marine Corps says they want Marines to act.
[01:43:09] They want them to have a bias to actually do something.
[01:43:11] They want a bias to take action.
[01:43:13] Default aggressive is an echelon front.
[01:43:15] This is me telling young junior officers in the seal team,
[01:43:17] hey, your default has gotta be go take action.
[01:43:21] Make something happen.
[01:43:22] But both bias for action and default aggressive,
[01:43:25] neither one of those say 100% go.
[01:43:29] No, it's default, meaning that's what your default is,
[01:43:33] but you might have to adjust it.
[01:43:34] Bias for action doesn't mean you take action,
[01:43:36] means you lean towards taking action.
[01:43:38] Sometimes you need to look at the situation
[01:43:41] and say you know what's gonna help you?
[01:43:42] Nothing.
[01:43:46] The best weapons for coin do not shoot.
[01:43:51] Counter-insurgents achieve the most meaningful success
[01:43:55] by gaining popular support and legitimacy
[01:43:57] for the host government.
[01:43:59] So how often is it that you as a leader can make more progress
[01:44:05] by instead of telling someone,
[01:44:08] no, we're gonna do it my way
[01:44:09] instead of shooting them in the face without you saying,
[01:44:11] okay, your way sounds good.
[01:44:13] You make you increase your legitimacy
[01:44:17] as opposed to decreasing it when you fire one off in their face.
[01:44:25] The host nation doing something tolerably
[01:44:27] is better than us doing it well.
[01:44:31] Hey, as a leader when you got a support leader,
[01:44:33] you know you can do it better than your support.
[01:44:36] But it's oftentimes better to let them do it.
[01:44:38] Good enough.
[01:44:42] If a tactic works this week, it might not work next week.
[01:44:45] If it works and this province,
[01:44:47] it might not work in the next.
[01:44:49] You gotta keep an open mind.
[01:44:50] You gotta change, you gotta adapt.
[01:44:52] Tactical, success guarantees nothing.
[01:45:01] When Colonel Harry Summers allegedly told
[01:45:04] the North Vietnamese counterpart in 1975,
[01:45:07] that quote, you know you never defeated us
[01:45:10] on the battlefield.
[01:45:13] And quote, the reply supposedly was quote,
[01:45:17] that may be so, but it is also irrelevant and quote,
[01:45:24] military actions by themselves cannot achieve
[01:45:26] a success in coin.
[01:45:28] Tactical actions must not only be linked
[01:45:31] to the operational and strategic military objectives,
[01:45:34] but also to the essential political goals of coin.
[01:45:41] Tactical success guarantees nothing.
[01:45:44] As a matter of fact, it's irrelevant
[01:45:47] in court, in courting to this North Vietnamese kernel.
[01:45:54] Last one, most of the important decisions
[01:45:58] are not made by generals.
[01:46:04] It's the competence and judgment of soldiers and marines
[01:46:08] at all levels.
[01:46:09] Senior leaders must set the proper tone for actions
[01:46:12] by their organizations with thorough training
[01:46:15] and clear guidance and then trust.
[01:46:17] Their subordinates to do the right thing.
[01:46:20] Preparation for the tactical level leaders
[01:46:23] requires more than service doctrine.
[01:46:25] They must also be trained and educated
[01:46:27] to adapt their local situations.
[01:46:30] Understand the legal and ethical implications
[01:46:32] of their actions and exercise subordinates initiative
[01:46:34] and sound judgment to meet their senior commanders in tent.
[01:46:38] You at a company in an organization
[01:46:40] as the CEO, as the CEO, as the president,
[01:46:45] as the guy in charge.
[01:46:49] Most of the important decisions are not made by you.
[01:46:52] They may buy someone out there on the front line,
[01:46:54] so better lead them correctly.
[01:47:01] Little section on successful practices
[01:47:04] and unsuccessful practices.
[01:47:11] I'll read some of the unsuccessful practices.
[01:47:14] Place priority on killing and capturing the enemy
[01:47:16] not on engaging the population.
[01:47:18] What does that mean?
[01:47:19] That means when you have a problem inside your team
[01:47:22] and all you do is attack like whoever you think is doing it,
[01:47:25] that's where your priority is instead of building relationships
[01:47:29] with the group, you're wrong.
[01:47:31] So when you're a little kid and someone,
[01:47:38] I don't know, broke the water heater
[01:47:40] and no one wants to mess up.
[01:47:43] So when your dad comes and says,
[01:47:46] someone tell me or it's your, you'll all get punished
[01:47:50] is that sort of the same thing like you should do that?
[01:47:53] That's collective punishing and I don't really agree
[01:47:57] with collective punishing.
[01:47:59] There are times where it's used for instance
[01:48:01] in team building exercises like seal training.
[01:48:04] Oh, you're gonna get that all day long.
[01:48:06] Oh yeah, one person makes a mistake,
[01:48:08] they're gonna make everyone pay
[01:48:09] and they're doing that actually to create some sort of friction.
[01:48:12] Right?
[01:48:13] What's wrong with you?
[01:48:14] I got out.
[01:48:15] Keep your head under the boat.
[01:48:17] We're gonna keep doing this until Charles gets his head under the boat.
[01:48:20] Really?
[01:48:21] I got out right now.
[01:48:22] Yeah, it's kind of like a two little pronged effect.
[01:48:26] One, you want to put more heat on that guy
[01:48:28] because like letting the team down.
[01:48:30] A lot of times it's more punishment than letting yourself down,
[01:48:33] especially when they're all right there.
[01:48:35] And then the other part is yeah, that friction.
[01:48:39] Then put some stress on everybody.
[01:48:41] You should try to get him.
[01:48:42] You should do it.
[01:48:43] I remember in football, there's like, okay,
[01:48:46] so you know when you, okay, in football,
[01:48:48] you say, you know, you say what's called a cadence,
[01:48:51] you say set down hot or go or whatever,
[01:48:54] the quarterback says it whatever.
[01:48:56] If you jump, if you start before the actual count,
[01:49:00] you know, you call for false or false or false or false.
[01:49:02] I'll decide, yeah, depending on office defense,
[01:49:04] you know, people call different things sometimes.
[01:49:06] So anyway, there are certain drills like to drill that in your head.
[01:49:12] And it's always, it's like an ongoing drill anyway.
[01:49:15] So if, so if we're gonna do like some conditioning or something,
[01:49:18] it'll be in the conditioning.
[01:49:20] So everyone will line up, let's hit windspirants.
[01:49:22] So it'll be like, okay, the count is on three.
[01:49:25] So they'll set down hot, hot, hot, hot on the third, hot, they go.
[01:49:29] Some people still jump off sides during the conditioning.
[01:49:31] So I'm saying it's like a drill that constantly goes.
[01:49:34] So if one guy jumps off sides, everybody pays for it.
[01:49:39] And sometimes the guy who'll jump off sides doesn't pay for it.
[01:49:43] So basically, you just go ahead and sit down.
[01:49:46] Yeah, or basically in a windspirant situation,
[01:49:49] the common thing in our situation would be like,
[01:49:51] okay, let's say it's a 50-yard windspirant, right?
[01:49:53] And you start at the zero yard line and you run to the 50 or whatever.
[01:49:57] So it's the counts on two, set down hot, one guy jumps off side.
[01:50:02] Echo jumps off side.
[01:50:04] Echo stays there, everyone else goes five yards back.
[01:50:08] So now they have the 55-yard windspirant, I don't have the 50.
[01:50:12] I do it again, they go five yards back again, seems same.
[01:50:15] So it like, it puts blame or pressure on you to get it, right?
[01:50:19] So you do learn, I think,
[01:50:21] but some people can get into this weird downward spiral
[01:50:24] because they're so stressed about everyone mad at them now.
[01:50:27] So they don't even think.
[01:50:29] So they can't get their act together, it's funny.
[01:50:32] But it's a good way to create stress.
[01:50:34] Yeah.
[01:50:35] Some of the successful practices, the other unsuccessful practices
[01:50:40] are very military-based conduct-betarian-sized operations
[01:50:45] as the norm, that's too big, concentrate-military forces
[01:50:48] in large bases for protection, we know that that's not going to work.
[01:50:51] Focus special operations forces primarily on raiding,
[01:50:55] like, hey, we're going to go capture kill bad guys.
[01:50:57] That's not where you want to put the focus.
[01:51:00] You can do it for sure, but it can't be the focus.
[01:51:04] So then the some of the successful practices are
[01:51:08] emphasizing intelligence focused on the population,
[01:51:11] their needs and security.
[01:51:14] Focus on the population, focus on the people.
[01:51:19] Expand established and expand security areas,
[01:51:22] isolated surgeons from the population.
[01:51:25] So those are the kind of things that help out place police
[01:51:29] and the lead with military support.
[01:51:32] We absolutely tried to do that.
[01:51:34] We put the Iraqis, we brought the Iraqis with us.
[01:51:36] We put them in the lead.
[01:51:38] So those are some solid successful practices.
[01:51:43] And here's the summary from this first chapter.
[01:51:46] Counter-insurgency is an extremely complex form of warfare.
[01:51:49] Truly war at the graduate level at its core.
[01:51:52] Counter-insurgency war figures a struggle for the support of the population.
[01:51:56] Their protection and welfare is the center of gravity of friendly forces.
[01:52:01] And the decisive terrain.
[01:52:05] This is something that I stole.
[01:52:07] I think this is the third big thing that I stole from this
[01:52:11] to start selling counter-insurgency up my chain of command.
[01:52:17] Was this idea that the center of gravity.
[01:52:20] The decisive terrain in this fight was not an airfield.
[01:52:26] It wasn't a part of town.
[01:52:27] It was the people.
[01:52:29] If we got the people, like when you storm a beach,
[01:52:34] when you get the beach head, you know, you want to get a foothold.
[01:52:37] That's the decisive terrain.
[01:52:39] If you're taking an island, you want to get the high ground.
[01:52:42] Here, it wasn't the high ground.
[01:52:44] It wasn't the beach head.
[01:52:47] It wasn't the airfield.
[01:52:49] It was the people.
[01:52:51] Gaining and maintaining that support is a formidable challenge.
[01:52:55] There are a host of non-military agencies who efforts must be synchronized and coordinated with those of military to achieve these aims.
[01:53:05] And this thing closes out.
[01:53:09] Insurgence are also fighting for the support of the population but are constrained by neither the law of war nor the bounds of human decency.
[01:53:17] They do anything to preserve their greatest advantage, the ability to hide among the people.
[01:53:23] These amoral enemies survive by their wits constantly adapting to the situation.
[01:53:29] To defeat them, it is essential that counter-insurgent forces develop.
[01:53:34] The ability to learn and adapt rapidly and continuously.
[01:53:44] So, learn and adapt rapidly and continuously.
[01:53:53] It seems to be a common theme here on this podcast in the books that we review in the people that we talk to in the lessons that we learn.
[01:54:01] We seem to hear it over and over and over again.
[01:54:06] That's one of the primary and most important attributes of winning.
[01:54:14] So, I think it's pretty clear that you need to take lessons like this and if you can learn to apply them.
[01:54:24] You can't universally apply them, right?
[01:54:27] And it says in the book, it says you can't just universally apply these things.
[01:54:31] You always have to be smart enough to pay attention to run a feedback loop.
[01:54:35] See what's actually happening and adjust.
[01:54:38] And you can only do that by the way if you're humble enough to actually listen to the feedback loop.
[01:54:48] Everything is related. Everything is connected.
[01:54:54] And you can overlay these things into whatever part of your life you need to counter whatever insurgency that you're facing.
[01:55:10] Whether you're on the battlefield, whether you're in business, you're a leader, you're facing an insurgency in your own family.
[01:55:23] And we also have to pay attention to the fact that we might have an insurgency going on inside of us and insurgency of weakness.
[01:55:36] And slough!
[01:55:38] Trying to bring us down. Eccletrails.
[01:55:42] Yes sir.
[01:55:43] Do you have any recommendations how we could fight the internal insurgency that we are facing every single day?
[01:55:51] So it's there. 100% there.
[01:55:54] When you've got to work out planned.
[01:55:59] And then boom, you feel the battle going on inside.
[01:56:03] All the reasons why today should actually, you know what?
[01:56:06] Think about it. Today should be a rest day.
[01:56:08] That's the one side.
[01:56:10] The other side is like nope.
[01:56:11] Shouldn't be a rest day.
[01:56:12] In fact, you're weak right now.
[01:56:14] And let's get stronger.
[01:56:16] Let's push this a lot of physical benefits.
[01:56:18] If you overcome this feeling of not wanting to do the workout and you do it anyway, that's even now you're getting stronger mentally too.
[01:56:24] And you know, but meanwhile it's like boom, it's a little battle.
[01:56:28] The other side is like, but you got all that other stuff you could be doing that you need to do.
[01:56:32] You got this stuff to do.
[01:56:33] If you get that done, boom, you'll be way better off.
[01:56:35] I'm just saying you'll get some recovery.
[01:56:37] And you know, so it's like too battles going on.
[01:56:39] Insurgency in there.
[01:56:40] Oh yeah.
[01:56:41] And there.
[01:56:42] And it's like that.
[01:56:43] When you said that the insurgency in the inside, it's that.
[01:56:46] It's the weak part of it's not going to be before.
[01:56:49] Go ahead.
[01:56:50] Go ahead.
[01:56:51] Let the cat out of the bag right there.
[01:56:53] So if I'm working on something, right?
[01:56:55] Whatever it may be.
[01:56:56] And it's time for the workout or whatever.
[01:56:58] Like that part of me would be like, oh, it just do it tomorrow.
[01:57:01] Do the workout tomorrow because look, you got all this thing that you're in the middle of getting that done is actually better right now.
[01:57:08] Where it's beneficial.
[01:57:10] You know, that insurgency is trying to win the heart and mind of my whole actions.
[01:57:15] Seems like showing me the benefits, you know, of like skipping the workout, but that's kind of evil in a way, you know.
[01:57:24] But yeah, we got to fight against that anyway.
[01:57:27] So yes.
[01:57:28] So what are we doing?
[01:57:29] Well, we're working out.
[01:57:30] Yeah, for sure.
[01:57:31] Don't skip the workout.
[01:57:32] Don't skip your injured skip the workout.
[01:57:34] Today was today.
[01:57:35] This very day.
[01:57:36] Sure.
[01:57:37] I know looking at my weak ahead because what is today of the week.
[01:57:41] It is Saturday right now.
[01:57:43] Yes.
[01:57:44] So I looked at the week ahead and looked at tomorrow.
[01:57:48] I'm pretty booked up tomorrow and the whole week is kind of crazy.
[01:57:52] And I know that we needed to get this done.
[01:57:56] So my first thing, you know, I always wake up at a good morning workout, but I knew I had a priori
[01:58:01] to exercise this.
[01:58:02] And I actually got it done pretty quick.
[01:58:04] I had already read it.
[01:58:05] So now I was going through making notes and whatever.
[01:58:07] And I, but I woke up and did that first before the workout before the workout.
[01:58:12] Because I had to prioritize next few years.
[01:58:14] So now it's like, you know, I spent like three or four hours finishing the reading,
[01:58:22] looking a couple things up and then I was going through, you know, highlighting.
[01:58:26] So now it's like 10 30 or something like that.
[01:58:30] I had a little food and I had all kinds of excuses.
[01:58:35] I locked and loaded.
[01:58:36] So that's got to be eat.
[01:58:37] That's.
[01:58:38] Yeah.
[01:58:39] So what I did was you had a little insurance.
[01:58:43] You going on.
[01:58:44] Yeah.
[01:58:45] And then I just texted you and said, hey, one of Clark, let's do it.
[01:58:49] And I said, as soon as it's, if he, he's, I don't care if he responds,
[01:58:53] I'm just going to get after it before I eat a like legitimate food.
[01:58:57] Yeah.
[01:58:58] Wait, get up.
[01:58:59] That's a little workout.
[01:59:00] Yeah, just went knocked out of workout.
[01:59:01] Yeah.
[01:59:02] Just did sort of a combo workout took me 40 minutes.
[01:59:06] You know what I'm saying?
[01:59:07] Still solid.
[01:59:09] But just had to get it done.
[01:59:10] You know, had to get it done.
[01:59:11] Had to overcome that.
[01:59:12] But in search and see situations.
[01:59:14] Sometimes those insurgents can make good points.
[01:59:17] They do.
[01:59:18] They know what they're doing.
[01:59:19] Yeah.
[01:59:20] They absolutely know what they're doing.
[01:59:21] That's why you got to be able to counter them.
[01:59:23] Um, man, I was thinking this.
[01:59:25] Let's face it.
[01:59:26] In search and see are successful.
[01:59:28] Often.
[01:59:29] Yeah.
[01:59:30] They're not, if you don't know how to counter it.
[01:59:32] You're going to be in trouble.
[01:59:33] Big time.
[01:59:34] What?
[01:59:35] I was yesterday when I was working out the same way.
[01:59:38] You were that one time you're teasing me about squats or whatever.
[01:59:41] You were like, oh, I wonder if it was Scott.
[01:59:43] Remember you're saying that?
[01:59:44] Okay.
[01:59:45] So I was kind of the same inverse reverse whatever scenario where I was like,
[01:59:48] I wonder if Jockel could do this workout.
[01:59:50] Like what if me and Jockel traded workouts?
[01:59:52] Whatever given day.
[01:59:53] And we had to do the same workout.
[01:59:56] Same weight.
[01:59:58] Everything.
[01:59:59] If you can't do it.
[02:00:00] Oh, there's an indicator.
[02:00:01] You can't do it.
[02:00:02] Kind of thing.
[02:00:03] Right.
[02:00:04] If you can't do it, it's an indicator that you can't do it.
[02:00:06] I don't say that.
[02:00:08] I'm saying that's the purpose of trading workouts.
[02:00:11] You know, like you always wonder like, I wonder if I could do that guy's workout.
[02:00:14] I wonder if I could do the, you know, that football players workout, whatever.
[02:00:17] You know, you kind of wonder that everyone's in a while.
[02:00:19] So especially when you see guys working out hard,
[02:00:21] I come under, I think, you know, with these crossfit guys or whatever.
[02:00:24] So that's what I was thinking.
[02:00:25] I was like, I wonder if I, I wonder how I would fare with Jockel's workout.
[02:00:29] Because there's two kind of kinds of like road blocks if you will.
[02:00:33] One is like, if I just can't do the weight, like, let's say your squat is just,
[02:00:37] it's a bigger squat than me.
[02:00:38] You know, so if you got freaking a set of 20, a set of 15, a set of nine and a set of,
[02:00:43] however that goes.
[02:00:45] And you're, again, I got to use your same weight and I simply can't get 20 reps with that weight.
[02:00:50] I just physically can't do it.
[02:00:52] This kind of, okay, there's that.
[02:00:53] That's one.
[02:00:54] Then the other one is like, this is like, I got to tap out.
[02:00:57] This is too hard for me.
[02:00:58] I got to rest more or I got to like, not do 10 sets.
[02:01:01] I can only do like five or whatever.
[02:01:03] You can do it the same.
[02:01:04] There's that too.
[02:01:05] So both of those, and probably there's other stuff too, is like, you wonder, how would I fare in that exact workout?
[02:01:12] Same, you know, weight.
[02:01:14] Like we're, now we're similar weight as far as body weight or whatever.
[02:01:18] So it's like I was wondering that like I wonder if, then I was like,
[02:01:22] first I was wondering, I wonder if I could do Jockel's and I was, then I was thinking, I wonder if he could do mine?
[02:01:27] I don't think I could do yours.
[02:01:29] I think that there's be a venn diagram, whether it be an overlap in the middle where we could both do each other's workouts.
[02:01:37] Then I have some workouts that you wouldn't be able to do, and you have some workouts that I wouldn't be able to do.
[02:01:42] Because of our specialties, right?
[02:01:46] Yeah.
[02:01:47] The metcons, I feel like, I don't know.
[02:01:51] Because yours are more extended, right?
[02:01:53] You're metcons?
[02:01:55] They're probably like what?
[02:01:56] 15, 20 minutes or something?
[02:01:58] Yeah.
[02:01:59] More more?
[02:02:00] Yeah, I see.
[02:02:01] So, but they're going to be less intense though.
[02:02:03] Depends.
[02:02:04] Whatever.
[02:02:05] None of the less I was wondering that.
[02:02:10] So maybe one day we're going to see.
[02:02:12] We should straight out have the workout.
[02:02:14] I've respirit built into my workout.
[02:02:16] That's one thing is yours seems more structured.
[02:02:21] You know, I guess not really, because I, but I just basically, I don't have respirit.
[02:02:27] Generally, most of my workouts don't have a rest.
[02:02:29] Like a time where you're like three minutes of rest.
[02:02:31] I don't generally have that.
[02:02:33] Yeah.
[02:02:34] Yeah, I do.
[02:02:35] Because we're all beginning to some other exercise during that period.
[02:02:37] Yeah, which is yet another type of workout.
[02:02:40] You know, like stimulus free.
[02:02:42] Because let's say you're just, let's go, okay, let's go, basic example.
[02:02:44] If you go, you know, five sets of 12, we'll just say.
[02:02:49] Right?
[02:02:50] There's a huge difference with not only the weight you can do, but just over a what you're doing to your body for that workout.
[02:02:56] If you go one minute rest in between those sets and three minutes rest in between those sets, you're doing like essentially you're doing two different things to your body.
[02:03:04] Yeah.
[02:03:04] You know, so it's like, all right, which workout am I doing then that's what that's why rest is kind of set in there.
[02:03:10] But then if there's no rest in between the sets and you program it like, oh, I need to get 500 pull ups.
[02:03:18] I don't care how I get them.
[02:03:20] I just gotta get them.
[02:03:21] I don't know what's not to say, can I guess or whatever or just you just gotta get 500 pull ups.
[02:03:25] It's kind of that's part of the workout too, you know, so it's like it's almost like it's you're doing a specific thing to your body there too, you know, so it's like that fits, you know, you don't have to have rest periods.
[02:03:38] I program them in for a reason.
[02:03:41] Yeah, no, you have a specific purpose, but nonetheless.
[02:03:46] Oh yeah, all right, no, no, the last I forgot.
[02:03:49] Yeah, someone to tell people how we can stay on the path.
[02:03:52] Yeah, effectively healthy and you know, effectively and healthy.
[02:03:59] Anyway, yes, so when you're working out, you can need need fuel, eat good.
[02:04:03] 80, 20 is good, 80% clean, 20% freedom.
[02:04:08] 80% discipline, 20% freedom.
[02:04:10] Yeah, interesting.
[02:04:11] Well, that's recommended.
[02:04:13] You can go 910, you start going 70, 30, then you, that's a slippery slope.
[02:04:17] That's what I think.
[02:04:18] Nonetheless, you want supplementation for your joints, for your brain, for even protein supplements,
[02:04:24] but when you got you jockel fuel supplements, joint warfare, or rejoin to obviously
[02:04:28] krill oil, make a 3's all day and antioxidants by the way.
[02:04:34] Also discipline and discipline go, which is essentially the same thing.
[02:04:37] Different delivery systems.
[02:04:40] Cance and powders.
[02:04:43] It's true.
[02:04:44] And it can pills.
[02:04:49] Because I told, I told B little at the beginning.
[02:04:53] So we started making discipline.
[02:04:54] I said, hey man, this is really good stuff.
[02:04:56] Yeah, this is exactly what I, this is what we want, right?
[02:05:00] Yes.
[02:05:01] I said, but I, I talk for a long period of time for living.
[02:05:06] And if I have to drink this to get my, get that hitter,
[02:05:13] if I have to drink this before I go out and start talking.
[02:05:17] And then all of a sudden, I got to go to the bathroom.
[02:05:19] I said, I need a pill.
[02:05:20] I told him.
[02:05:21] I said, I said, put this stuff in a pill.
[02:05:22] He goes, okay, and he made, what is it called?
[02:05:25] It's a compressed, not a capsule, but like a compressed thing, whatever.
[02:05:30] And I don't really like those.
[02:05:32] Oh, for real?
[02:05:33] So then I had to get him back.
[02:05:34] Let him go.
[02:05:35] So it broke.
[02:05:36] And he goes, he said, you said, you said, pill.
[02:05:38] And I said, I thought the, a capsule was a pill.
[02:05:41] To me, that's the same thing. You take a pill, right?
[02:05:44] I didn't know that a pill was a, whatever that compressed thing is.
[02:05:47] And a capsule was something different.
[02:05:49] Yes.
[02:05:49] But if you need that little, like, you need it.
[02:05:53] Boom, you can take a, the capsule.
[02:05:55] A capsule, a disciplined pill, not a gel cap, which actually this stem from.
[02:06:00] So, I forget what happened in the world,
[02:06:04] but there was controversy about veterans and drugs.
[02:06:10] And drugs.
[02:06:11] And someone was saying something like, you know, what do you expect to happen when
[02:06:16] these put all these vets on drugs, put on, and fedemines?
[02:06:20] And I said, I said, we're not on a fedemines and he goes,
[02:06:23] Prylets take him, fedemines.
[02:06:25] And I said, I texted Dave Burke.
[02:06:30] Yeah, good deal to you.
[02:06:31] Yeah.
[02:06:32] And I said, I said, do they give you guys and fedemines to take?
[02:06:36] And he goes, no.
[02:06:37] I mean, this is all of within, this is on Twitter.
[02:06:40] This is probably two years ago.
[02:06:42] He goes, no.
[02:06:43] And so I go back to the guy, I go, no, they never give pilots and fedemines.
[02:06:46] And then I get it.
[02:06:47] And as soon as I tweeted that, Dave Burke.
[02:06:50] Good deal to you.
[02:06:51] Yeah, he goes back to you as pro.
[02:06:53] I just screwed you.
[02:06:54] He said, he's like, bro, I just screwed you.
[02:06:56] And I was like, what?
[02:06:57] He goes, he goes, they definitely give it to us tonight.
[02:06:59] And I was like, and I, I was like, Roger.
[02:07:02] I said, hey, what's, I was wrong.
[02:07:04] But guess what they call him?
[02:07:05] What?
[02:07:07] Go pills.
[02:07:08] Okay.
[02:07:09] So that's what I was saying to be little.
[02:07:11] I'll just say, hey, man, we need go pills.
[02:07:14] No, we don't need, and fedemines in the, in fact, we do not want and fedemines.
[02:07:19] But we do want the feeling that discipline and the, the, the, the
[02:07:24] Discipline powder gives you a little cognitive kick.
[02:07:27] Yeah, little, little get up and go.
[02:07:29] Yes.
[02:07:30] That's why we call it this one.
[02:07:31] Go.
[02:07:32] Anyway, there you go.
[02:07:33] That's a little information behind that.
[02:07:34] We got chocolate, we got milk, strawberry, chocolate for kids.
[02:07:38] We got mint, peanut butter, the whole nine yards.
[02:07:40] It's true.
[02:07:42] And all the stuff is available, the vitamin shop, or it's available at
[02:07:46] OrgeneMaine.com.
[02:07:49] You know, speaking of origin, main other things on there besides
[02:07:53] Chocolate field, like, geysin rashguards for a
[02:07:56] Gigi to one, we go back to Gigi to, if we haven't already.
[02:07:59] We're kind of getting back there.
[02:08:00] Boom.
[02:08:01] I think there's a, a underground mode.
[02:08:03] There's definitely people training.
[02:08:05] Yeah, that's JP training.
[02:08:07] Texas is open.
[02:08:08] Yeah.
[02:08:09] Yeah, there's, I think I heard a thing that gyms are opening,
[02:08:13] June 15th or something like this.
[02:08:16] They opened with a bunch of restrictions.
[02:08:18] Yeah.
[02:08:19] So yeah, but we're getting there.
[02:08:21] Yeah, coming out from the underground for sure.
[02:08:23] So you have to need a new Gigi.
[02:08:24] Yeah, origin Gigi best ones factually in the world, by the way.
[02:08:27] And fully in America, of course.
[02:08:30] Which is kind of important right now.
[02:08:33] You want to get your stuff that's made in America not made in China.
[02:08:38] Yeah, that's why I recommend it anyways.
[02:08:42] Okay.
[02:08:43] Don't forget about jeans.
[02:08:44] Don't forget about boots.
[02:08:47] Don't forget about t-shirts, hoodies, and don't forget about joggers.
[02:08:54] Unless you're me.
[02:08:55] If you me, don't get joggers.
[02:08:56] Yeah, just forget about it.
[02:08:57] Yeah, don't worry.
[02:08:58] There's a whole, a whole just, a whole can, there's a whole just plethora of reasons why
[02:09:08] if your name is Joko, don't get joggers.
[02:09:11] They just don't want it.
[02:09:12] Yeah, don't get it.
[02:09:13] Just don't get it.
[02:09:14] Don't put them on.
[02:09:15] Just if your name is echo Charles.
[02:09:16] Oh, oh, thank.
[02:09:17] All joggers.
[02:09:18] Oh, yes, sir.
[02:09:19] Yes, or do you mean dot com also.
[02:09:22] Joko is a store.
[02:09:24] That's called joko store.
[02:09:26] That's where you can get your shirts, custom shirts.
[02:09:33] Maybe you stretching that word custom for, but nonetheless, you can't represent this when
[02:09:38] you go to read them good.
[02:09:39] Take pie grunk.
[02:09:40] I don't take you.
[02:09:41] Get after it.
[02:09:42] It's a good one.
[02:09:43] Anyway, shirts that will represent on the path while you're on.
[02:09:48] The path.
[02:09:49] Anyway, it's a mess.
[02:09:51] I'm asking other cool stuff.
[02:09:52] So yeah, if you like something, get something.
[02:09:55] We have an email list.
[02:09:58] Here's the thing.
[02:10:01] I always feel kind of odd for lack of better term saying, hey, sign up on for our email list.
[02:10:09] It feels weird saying that.
[02:10:11] Well, that's because you have been conditioned in your life that every time somebody told you that
[02:10:15] and you did it, you got a bunch of junk.
[02:10:18] Yes, and I don't want to say spam necessarily, but yeah, it's one of these things where
[02:10:23] I'm down.
[02:10:24] I am down for the email list, 100%.
[02:10:26] If I'm like, oh, wait, I do want updates on this stuff right here.
[02:10:30] I'm down.
[02:10:31] I'm not conditioned necessarily against it, but here's the thing.
[02:10:34] I have felt the sting of signing up for the email list, hoping that I'll be updated
[02:10:39] with like new cool stuff that they offer or whatever, but meanwhile, they're sending me like,
[02:10:43] oh, happy Valentine's Day from XYZ.com.
[02:10:46] It's like, bro, I don't care, but you wishing me happy Valentine's Day in my email inbox.
[02:10:51] Which, let's face it, are email inbox for most of them.
[02:10:54] For some of us, we'll say, I think most of us, but whatever, are email inboxes kind of sacred,
[02:10:59] like, proud stay out of there if you don't have something to look at.
[02:11:02] That's the way it should be.
[02:11:04] Yeah.
[02:11:05] So anyway, my point there is if, if you sign up for this, if you're saying all this now, you're going to tell everyone that you sign up for the email.
[02:11:12] I'm not saying anyone should do anything, ever.
[02:11:15] Maybe not ever, but I'm not saying in this case, but I'm saying, we do have an email list.
[02:11:19] If you do want updates and here's basically what we'll send out is like, if there's a new design or a new hoodie or a new whatever.
[02:11:28] That's it, pretty much for the store.
[02:11:31] With the occasional, and when I say occasional, I mean, very occasional exception, where if there's like some important announcement.
[02:11:38] And important is like, there, it has to be very important.
[02:11:42] What's an example of an important announcement that's come out on the email list?
[02:11:45] Because I'm on this.
[02:11:46] I'm on this. Come out. Yeah. None. Okay, that's right.
[02:11:49] I love to say I haven't gotten any more.
[02:11:51] Yes. I'm just saying that control.
[02:11:53] No, no, no.
[02:11:54] None have been, but I'm saying if there was like, hey, freaking no podcast for one month or something that like, I would anticipate a bunch of people training email.
[02:12:05] Me or you about, then maybe, but I mean, I can't think of anything off hand specifically, but it'll be real important.
[02:12:12] I think I will firmly believe that it's important.
[02:12:15] Otherwise, you're just going to get new stuff every what once a month, maybe once every two, three months.
[02:12:21] Yes. Maybe.
[02:12:22] Anyway, I'm not going to be easy.
[02:12:24] That's what I'm saying. I realize that everyone's inbox is sacred.
[02:12:27] Where do they sign up for this email address listing on joccostore.com at the bottom?
[02:12:35] Should I make some kind of an email?
[02:12:39] Hey, no, no, no.
[02:12:41] Okay. I don't think so. You know, leave everybody alone.
[02:12:45] That's like what people are all into.
[02:12:47] Oh, you should.
[02:12:48] Yeah, and I dig it. That's like the, what do you call it?
[02:12:52] Have you ever gotten an email from somebody that's like, like, you sign up for an email list?
[02:12:56] And then you get an email, but it says it's from the person you go, oh, it's from someone so, but then it's just a massive mail.
[02:13:04] Yeah. Well, because sometimes it is from that person, but it is a massive mail.
[02:13:09] Okay. But sometimes it's from like their marketing company.
[02:13:12] Yeah. Whatever.
[02:13:13] Those are the ones that I go, come on, man.
[02:13:15] Yeah, but I felt all good.
[02:13:16] But well, this one is good because this is actually from me.
[02:13:19] Yeah. So I'll try to make it look cool and official.
[02:13:22] You know, the cool pictures on there, but, but yes, it is coming for me.
[02:13:26] I have friends.
[02:13:28] Yes.
[02:13:29] That, you know, kind of have email list, right?
[02:13:32] Yeah.
[02:13:33] Sure.
[02:13:33] And, and I'm on their email list.
[02:13:36] Yeah. But then I'm also have, you know, will exchange personally emails, right?
[02:13:41] Right.
[02:13:41] About whatever topic.
[02:13:43] And it got get an email from like an email, I'll show up and I go, oh, oh, that's cool.
[02:13:48] So, and then I open up and it's one of those things.
[02:13:51] It's always like, oh, dude.
[02:13:52] That's a bummer.
[02:13:53] Yeah.
[02:13:54] What do you mean, like Sam Harris?
[02:13:55] Just whoever.
[02:13:56] Oh, yeah.
[02:13:57] You name him.
[02:13:57] I signed up for Sam Harris's email list, but it was,
[02:14:00] happened to be at the same time where I sort of like,
[02:14:03] met him in sort of like, no, and then I seen it like from Sam Harris.
[02:14:06] I was like, yes.
[02:14:07] Sam Harris is emailing in, then it's like his podcast thing.
[02:14:09] I was like, I felt that.
[02:14:11] It was cool.
[02:14:12] I signed up for a reason.
[02:14:13] So I was like, but that expectation that it's actually him emailing you being like,
[02:14:17] Hey, great to meet you or something like this, you know?
[02:14:19] Yeah.
[02:14:20] Yeah.
[02:14:20] Kind of.
[02:14:21] That's funny.
[02:14:21] No, I get it, but I get, you know, quite a few friends like that,
[02:14:25] you know, where, and you know, I don't, I'm not a big communicator.
[02:14:29] And I don't have a ton of friends anyways.
[02:14:31] So when I do get emails from my friends, it's always, because I get a lot of business emails,
[02:14:35] obviously, but then when people email my personally email, you know,
[02:14:39] and I go, oh, and then I see that it's a form of me, my God.
[02:14:43] Oh, well, well,
[02:14:45] I mean, that quite is a say to you.
[02:14:47] But sometimes it has spurred me to email them, right?
[02:14:51] I've gone, you know, and then they email me back and we have a cool
[02:14:54] something.
[02:14:55] Oh, it reminds me.
[02:14:56] Yeah.
[02:14:57] I say, well, it gave me that feeling like, oh, that's cool to hear from this person or that person.
[02:15:00] Maybe they were thinking the same thing.
[02:15:03] Why am I not email them?
[02:15:05] Who am I supposed to not, not taking an initiative here?
[02:15:08] Yeah.
[02:15:08] So then I'll take some initiative and say, hey, I listen to your last podcast or hey,
[02:15:12] I saw you do that thing.
[02:15:13] And they go, oh, cool.
[02:15:14] You know what I mean?
[02:15:15] Yeah.
[02:15:16] So it's a little indirect prompt to kind of relate to people.
[02:15:21] Yeah, reach out, man.
[02:15:23] Yeah.
[02:15:24] Can't pick up a phone.
[02:15:25] Yeah.
[02:15:26] It's true.
[02:15:27] All right.
[02:15:28] Well, nonetheless, there you go.
[02:15:29] So yeah, jockelster.com.
[02:15:30] That's where all this stuff is.
[02:15:32] Also, if you want to subscribe to the podcast on iTunes, I don't
[02:15:37] know, sounds kind of weird because you're probably already are subscribed.
[02:15:40] Maybe maybe not, I don't know.
[02:15:41] I have a question.
[02:15:42] Yeah.
[02:15:43] Yeah.
[02:15:43] You of course.
[02:15:44] Yeah.
[02:15:44] Me too.
[02:15:45] But if you're not subscribed, you want to subscribe, boom.
[02:15:47] Let me remind you that that option is available for you.
[02:15:51] We also have some other podcasts.
[02:15:53] We have a podcast formerly known as the thread, which I was this close to renaming.
[02:15:57] And I didn't like it.
[02:16:00] And then I found, then I found the ultimate new name for it.
[02:16:03] And there's already another podcast, which I can't even believe exists with this name that I can't believe has already been taken.
[02:16:10] So I'm still in the midst of finding out a new name for that.
[02:16:13] Well, what was the name?
[02:16:14] I'm not going to say it.
[02:16:16] Why not?
[02:16:17] Because it's just, I'm not going to say it.
[02:16:20] We're just so you're still let down.
[02:16:22] I was not saying.
[02:16:23] So we just pointed and also I want to see if there's a way that I can still manipulate the name enough to use it.
[02:16:29] Oh, right, right, right.
[02:16:30] Gotcha.
[02:16:31] But I don't want to give it away.
[02:16:33] Grounded podcast where we talk about you, Jitsu, which we talked about you, Jitsu, Jitsu a lot anyway.
[02:16:38] So, but we talked about it even more.
[02:16:40] And we talk about life.
[02:16:41] And we talk about everything else on the grounded podcast.
[02:16:43] We got the Warrior Kid podcast for your warrior kids.
[02:16:45] We got Warrior Kid soap from IrishOxRent.com, a young warrior kid making soap.
[02:16:51] So everybody out there in the entire world can stay clean.
[02:16:56] We got a YouTube channel, which is where Echo takes videos and he puts them all in there.
[02:17:04] Sometimes he puts modifications.
[02:17:06] I said last time that he should put enhancements into just the podcast.
[02:17:11] So when I talk about counterinsurgency, what I talk about weapons,
[02:17:15] something should happen in this.
[02:17:18] You didn't do it. Whatever total lack of initiative, but it's all good.
[02:17:22] I'm sure there's someone out there that would love to modify these things.
[02:17:25] Yeah.
[02:17:26] To me, the jury is still outweathering out that's a good idea.
[02:17:30] So, you know what I'm going to think about it?
[02:17:32] Why don't we test it? Why don't we see?
[02:17:35] Next time when we do this podcast, you know, you make your little notes.
[02:17:39] You make your little notes.
[02:17:40] Yeah, make your little notes.
[02:17:41] You should be like, oh, when I talk about all there is this massive explosion.
[02:17:45] You could just make a little note that says, like, one hour and 37 minutes.
[02:17:49] Explosions.
[02:17:50] Here's the thing.
[02:17:52] Jock, for somebody that freaking just puts explosions everywhere.
[02:17:55] Yes, sir.
[02:17:56] Yeah, and I'm an explosion advocate, as far as video goes, 100%.
[02:18:01] But here's the thing.
[02:18:03] Here's the thing with that.
[02:18:04] So let's say I put a cool machine gun sound, explosions, whatever.
[02:18:08] Whatever we put in one single person on YouTube with one of those
[02:18:14] ghost accounts that like, you know, no profile picture.
[02:18:17] One of those guys says, that's corny,
[02:18:20] but it's going to like devastate me, I think, us.
[02:18:25] Okay.
[02:18:26] We can do it.
[02:18:27] That's an indicator.
[02:18:28] It's a long day hard enough.
[02:18:29] I'm just talking to tough enough.
[02:18:31] Also, we got psychological warfare, a bunch of me talking about your moments of weakness,
[02:18:35] a little psychological hitters.
[02:18:36] We got flip side canvas, little visual hitters,
[02:18:39] flipside canvas dot com,
[02:18:42] support the code of my or while you're at it.
[02:18:45] We got a bunch of books, the code, the evaluation, the protocols.
[02:18:48] Leadership strategy and tactics field manual way, the warrior kid one, two and three.
[02:18:52] Mikey in the dragons,
[02:18:54] discipline and push freedom field manual,
[02:18:57] extreme ownership and the dichotomy of leadership.
[02:19:00] Check out those books if you like what we talk about on here.
[02:19:04] Excellent front.
[02:19:05] That's our leadership consultancy.
[02:19:07] I talked about it a couple times today.
[02:19:09] We solve problems through leadership.
[02:19:11] That's what we do go to echelon front dot com.
[02:19:14] And by the way, if you want me to come and speak to your company,
[02:19:16] don't go to a speaker's bureau and don't Google.
[02:19:19] Jocco speaking.
[02:19:24] Just go to echelon front dot com.
[02:19:26] That's what we do.
[02:19:27] We have EF online, which is revamped.
[02:19:32] Come and check it out.
[02:19:34] It's online courses.
[02:19:36] It's online.
[02:19:37] Not just online courses.
[02:19:39] If you want to talk to me, if you want to hang out with me,
[02:19:43] it is so meeting.
[02:19:45] Get on to ef online dot com.
[02:19:48] And you will get to tell I will be sitting there answering your question.
[02:19:54] Master.
[02:19:55] Our leadership seminar event.
[02:19:59] Gathering Phoenix Arizona, September 16th and 17th.
[02:20:03] We're doing it Dallas, Texas, December 3rd and 4th.
[02:20:06] We're doing it.
[02:20:07] Every gig we've ever done has sold out.
[02:20:09] Extreme ownership dot com.
[02:20:11] If you want to come to that.
[02:20:13] And if you need leadership in your organization, go to ef over watch dot com.
[02:20:17] We got military, prior service military personnel that
[02:20:22] understand the principles we talk about.
[02:20:25] And they're ready to come to work at your team.
[02:20:28] Also, America's mighty warrior's dot org.
[02:20:31] Momily, Mark Lee's mom.
[02:20:38] She's out there on the grind helping in a multitude of different ways.
[02:20:41] Service members active duty.
[02:20:43] Their families, gold star families around the world.
[02:20:47] That's what she's doing.
[02:20:48] You can go to americasmidewariors dot org to either get involved or just donate.
[02:20:53] And if you haven't had enough of my protracted discourse.
[02:20:59] Or you need more of Echo's arbitrary tales.
[02:21:06] You can find us on the in a web on Twitter, on Instagram and on Facebook.
[02:21:13] Echo is at Echo Charles.
[02:21:14] I am at chocolate one.
[02:21:15] I can thanks to everyone out there in uniform right now.
[02:21:18] Trying to keep order from becoming chaos.
[02:21:22] And you're doing it voluntarily for us.
[02:21:24] And a massive thanks to police and law enforcement out there.
[02:21:28] Firefighters, paramedics, EMTs, dispatchers, correctional officers,
[02:21:32] Border Patrol, secret service.
[02:21:34] You do some of the hardest work in the world.
[02:21:37] You don't make a ton of money.
[02:21:39] You do it with massive risk for yourselves.
[02:21:42] And you do it to keep us safe.
[02:21:44] And we thank you.
[02:21:45] And to everyone else out there.
[02:21:50] There are lots of insurgents.
[02:21:52] He's going on.
[02:21:53] Lots of insurgents.
[02:21:54] He's happening in your life.
[02:21:56] In your business.
[02:21:58] In your relationships.
[02:21:59] In your family.
[02:22:00] In yourself.
[02:22:02] And to really easy.
[02:22:04] Just say, hold the line.
[02:22:06] It's really easy.
[02:22:07] I say it all the time.
[02:22:09] But you got to remember all these complexities.
[02:22:12] You got to remember that more than just brute force.
[02:22:16] You have to use your mind.
[02:22:19] You can't just out maneuver.
[02:22:21] You have to outthink.
[02:22:23] You have to give.
[02:22:26] And you have to take.
[02:22:27] You have to think strategic.
[02:22:29] And you have to play the long game.
[02:22:31] And it's not easy.
[02:22:33] But that's how you win.
[02:22:37] So go out there.
[02:22:39] And get after it.
[02:22:41] And until next time.
[02:22:43] This is echo and jacco.
[02:22:46] Out.