Jocko Podcast 231 w/ Dave Berke: 231: Welcome Stiff Competition and Keep Your Ego in Check. Top Gun

2020-05-27T13:22:49Z

Join the conversation on Twitter/Instagram: @jockowillink @echocharles @davidrberke 0:00:00 - Opening 0:06:01 - Top Gun fighting tactics.  2:27:27 - Final thoughts and take-aways. 2:40:51 - How to stay on THE PATH JOCKO STORE Apparel: https://www.jockostore.com/collections/men Jocko Fuel: https://originmaine.com/origin-labs/ Origin Jeans and Clothes: https://originmaine.com/durable-goods/ Origin Gis: https://originmaine.com/bjj-mma-fit/ 3:01:55 - Closing Gratitude.

AI summary of episode

Okay, you said that you don't do like a, like a, like a joker or like a faint or anything like that, you know, go one way and then break right or whatever. and I said it, you know, as soon as he left, as soon as Dan left, I was like, oh, we're going to have to go deep on this stuff day because the better, you know, the better I can understand what it looked like from your perspective, I think it just opens up a better understanding of this whole mentality. But like even, you know, even when I was a cartoon commander and something would happen, some, some other, you know, whether it was, whether it was the enemy, whether it was some part of some organization, you know, some person that had something, did something that was, I don't, I want to throw this word out there because it just, it just sets off a whole bunch of, you know, what could it be? And then we're going to swirl around a little bit, and then I'm going to see an opportunity like, oh, oh, oh, oh, juggle gave me a little bit of room here. You know, it's kind of like a thing like I'm going to grill up. And you know what a good turn looks like, then you know what a weak turn looks like. So you've got to think about your fuel, you've got to think about your wingmen, you've got to think about the other 20 airplanes that are going to be landing on the ship at the same time as you, and the coordination goes along with that. That's kind of like guys like in the Air Force guys like Robin Oles or such legends, because in the face of an entire industry and in the face of an entire era of the military mindset, he recognized that the thing that makes us better is how well we train and how aggressive we are with our machines. I think because of the, because of the reaction of an aircraft, if you're going to fake enough that I'm going to actually have to fall for your fake, for you to recover back is you can't do it quickly enough and I am going to be able to take advantage of it. Then I need to draw what's up there and then I'm going to put some big circles in the boring go, hey, we're going to really analyze this engagement here and I'm going to play the tape and go, okay, stop, what do you see? How about, um, how about eyesight, which I know back in the day was like the component Chuck Yager, you know, could like PID, Yeah, bogeys, just so before anyone is even close to seeing them. You might get a little, not sure right for line up left, you might have a different version of going right, and then there is going left. But you're not going to come up with like, oh, man, I'm going to come up with some crazy thing that's never seen before. And I think one of the cool things about being around the ship, and one of the things that makes naval aviation unique with these guys in the Navy and the Marines that did it, is that every single flight, there was this risk, there was this fight that you were going to get the duel against this machine, this boat, this thing that's out there, that sort of geared and designed in every way, shape, and form, it's a really bad airport. But then yes, you got to remember as well that there is no, because essentially like, okay, like you're in a duty to remember where it's like Green zone meaning save zone if you're too far away from the guy you can't punch a kick you whatever. I think the way you said it was exactly right man, so F-18, F-16, F-15, MIG-29, SC-27, all these airplanes in this generational world that I was in at top, going to during that time, they're all pretty good. Can you like not become a fighter pilot if your vision is like a, you know, used to be like that. And so the key would be is, how can I maneuver to a place where I can climb above you without putting myself at risk to your weapons, and then maneuver above you, and take advantage of that free G force that's available to me going from high to low, where you're fighting against that and you're losing it, going from low to high, and that's kind of the goal of that vertical fight that he described. You've got to plan for it, you've got to count for it, you've got to manage your fuel for it, and you've got to recognize that more than likely, the hardest part of your flight, no matter what you're doing, more often than not, it's going to be the last thing you do. But if you don't really know what's happening around you the way that he does, eventually he's going to out, he's going to outperform you. So you get the nod you go when you when you show up there, do you have any inkling in your head that you're going to do well that you're going to be able to hang you're just like you took no 100% that you're getting in with the black and with the sharks and with the black belts. And it's not going to keep working like this because the people we're fighting against are going to figure this out. The fleet is cyclical, so you have a work up phase and you have focus on this work up and you have deployment phase and that's a huge amount of focus and you come back and you kind of have, you know, a little bit of a let down phase, you lose some people they go well, so where you get some new people on board and it cycles and the pace cycles up and down, the responsibility cycle up and down, what you're trying to do changes all the time. The LSOs and look, one of the cool things, or is it like power power power, break, break, break, break, break, like a left left left left, is you doing that? You steer everything with your legs, you're putting a lot of pressure on your feet and your toes and you maneuver the airplane with your feet and your legs are shaking so hard that you literally can't steer and you're margined for like they take it to the side of the ship like three feet away from the edge of the ship. How much do you use a change of pace, like in basketball, you know, when you're dribbling down the court, you change pace, you go, you, you're going fast, then you slow down for second, then you go fast again. But if you're on the pat, you know, if you're if you are reminded that, hey, you're going by this code, you throw up a zero by that hurts, you know? He's going to be able to excel in in this and he's going to do a little better better than jockel because I can see jockel is kind of lagging in his ability to. Like I'm holding your hands instead of like I got one hand here, one hand here, I'm holding you tight, you can't like maneuver it all. Now it's like, man, I don't know how this is going to, now you're in a real fight. But typically when you strap on an airplane, you have a pretty good idea of how it's going to perform and how it's going to behave. If you're an hour going out there and I'm just going to, and I just start getting wild with you and just turn to some of these crazy things. You know, if you can identify those two, because it reveals that you actually know what's going on. And you're just going to add some moment boom, you're going to turn left, right, whatever. You didn't know that there are soldiers already left the building and you didn't see where you didn't know the stuff was going on. I don't mean it like you like to fight other people but that feeling that you get you like that feeling. So if you compare to the jujitsu, right, you know how like we have situational training, which is essentially what it is, right, situational training. It is a reminder because like a lot of this stuff is like, yeah, like you could have a one day. And you know, like I said, it's, it's, you know, it's an old man talking now and just don't get those situations very often. It's like, oh, I mean, in your jitz who I'd say, hey, echo, you know, you're, you need to get you, you squeeze your knees together, right on an armlock. And you know, you don't know what's going to happen. And I won't really know what that debrief is going to be like until we get in there. Like I know what you're going into this seal training. But if you've got, you know, if you did the math that we've got, multiple carriers, deployed to see it all the time, and you're doing multiple flight ups all the time, once a week out there somewhere in the blue ocean, there's a kid up there who's struggling.

Most common words

Episode transcript

[00:00:00] This is Jockel podcast number 231 with echo Charles and me, Jockel Willink. Good evening, echo. Good evening.
[00:00:08] Also joining us tonight. Once again, is Dave Burke, good evening, Dave. Good evening.
[00:00:14] So last podcast was with Dan Peterson. If you haven't listened to that, he was the first officer in charge of the top gun weapons school in the Navy.
[00:00:30] It's a great podcast. It was awesome to have him on there.
[00:00:34] And as I heard him talking the entire time as I read his book, which is also called Top Gun, an American story, the thing about Top Gun is that it's not just a school for fighter jet pilots to go to.
[00:00:55] There is a fought pattern. There is a mentality. There is an attitude. And this is not the attitude of, you know, that, and it really, you know,
[00:01:09] we barely even talked about the movie Top Gun on the podcast with him.
[00:01:15] And that's because in my mind, I could barely connect the two. I could barely connect the reality of that original Top Gun school with the attitudes.
[00:01:24] You look, there's some on the Venn diagram. There's some, there's some overlap, of course.
[00:01:29] But we're not talking about the arrogant jetjockey. We're talking about the attitude of trying to improve, trying to learn and trying to win.
[00:01:42] And there is a giant overlap. The biggest overlap that I found, the largest overlap in the Venn diagrams in my brain is, well, it's, it's my kind of fundamental core fought pattern, which is extreme ownership.
[00:02:07] That's what it boils down to is this attitude that when you lose a dogfight, and this was very interesting when you lose a dogfight, you don't blame the plane, you don't blame the other pilot, you blame yourself, you say, okay, this is my fault. Why did I lose?
[00:02:26] And how can I win? And I, that's something that has possessed my life, and I see all kinds of comparison in there. And I see the same, look, that same mentality, that ownership mentality.
[00:02:42] It's in good seals. It's in, it's in a good jiu-jitsu school. It's in a good business. It's in a good team, and it's in good leaders. And as, as it relates to the seal teams, part of this is when we started using Simunition and we'll get into it. When we started using paintball, whatever you want to call it,
[00:03:05] Simunition slash paintball, laser attack, this multi-million dollar laser tax system that we have, when you add that in here, and you can start dogfighting.
[00:03:16] You figure out if you're smart, if you take ownership, you figure out how to win.
[00:03:19] You see, jiu-jitsu. Look, no one really knew who is going to win a fight between a karate guy and a wrestler or a, or a Kenbo guy and a jiu-jitsu guy. No one really knew who is going to win until the UFC until people started fighting or whatever valley to do and because whatever you, whatever you want to go,
[00:03:46] when people start to go at it, when people, when you actually engage in combat and then you ask yourself, why did I lose?
[00:03:57] Why did I lose? And when you ask yourself why you lost and you don't blame it on the guy was bit think of how easy that would be in jiu-jitsu. Hey, the guy was bigger than me, the guy was stronger than me, the guy was faster than me. Those are the reasons why my system didn't work.
[00:04:10] It's this excuse, it's that excuse, it's another excuse instead of saying, you know what? I didn't win.
[00:04:17] Let's figure out why I didn't win and then let's make some adaptations.
[00:04:24] And so the more I thought about this and I said it, you know, as soon as he left, as soon as Dan left, I was like, oh, we're going to have to go deep on this stuff day because the better, you know, the better I can understand what it looked like from your perspective, I think it just opens up a better understanding of this whole mentality.
[00:04:45] So let's talk, um, top gun and let's talk fighter tactics and let's talk winning and owning and making mistakes and learning from mistakes. Like this is how this is what the winning teams do.
[00:04:59] There was some really interesting points when he was talking about boyd and he's saying boyd is saying this aircraft beats that aircraft, which if you think about it, just like we talk about with extreme ownership, if if I say, oh, that aircraft is faster, tighter turn or whatever, then mine, that it's not my fault that I lost.
[00:05:25] I was saying, hmm, what can I do to win? How can I win? And to me, that right there, that's the difference, that's the top gun attitude, that's the extreme ownership attitude, it's not my planes fault.
[00:05:38] It's my fault and by the way, if you deliver me a plane, a military industry, if you deliver me a plane that doesn't function correctly, what do I need to do? Take ownership of that and say, let me give you guys some feedback.
[00:05:58] Here's where this fails, here's where this doesn't work, here's where the shortfalls are. If you don't have that attitude, you go up, you know what, we don't have a good enough plane, oh well, they didn't, they didn't get it right, oh well, we're going to lose now, oh well, that's the attitude of blaming others and you never get better.
[00:06:17] Yeah, I could talk all day, so this is a cool subject for me, I mean, just first things first with the the mentality of top gun is, I learned more humility at top gunners in the sugar than anywhere else. That's where I really started to learn humility, which is somewhat if you think about it from the outside counterintuitive.
[00:06:42] It's also connected to what you talked about with the movie, is the closer you get to top gun, the farther you get away from the movie and to the point that there's literally zero connection, because of course it's a movie, but when you're kid you see it and sort of represents some idyllic thing that looks really cool and it puts you on a path, we want to go do that and then more you learn about it, the more you realize it's just a movie top gun breeds more humility because of what is going on at top gun.
[00:07:10] The charter for top gun is even more daunting than the charter for being in a fighter squadron, so when you're in a fighter squadron you're supposed to be ready to go to war, you're in a operational fleet squadron, it's probably no different than being in a team, your job is ready to go to war.
[00:07:24] The charter for top gun is to train every single fighter squadron's leaders to lead their most junior pilots into combat, and that's a big, big deal. So when you talk about am I doing this right or doing this wrong, it isn't just how good am I, or it isn't even really just how good the people around me are.
[00:07:44] Is if what I'm doing impacts the entire, the entire friendly US and allied air forces across the entire globe, and that's a huge charter and that generates a lot of humility because you recognize what is you're doing, and it's really hard to understand that until you're on the inside.
[00:08:03] When I got on the inside of top gun I realized what it really meant to be an instructor, you have a lot of weight in your shoulders and you have to deliver.
[00:08:09] I feel the same attitude of being the people that were responsible for preserving the capability of aerial combat.
[00:08:20] Did you feel that was there was there a sense that hey this is on me.
[00:08:25] You are part of a legacy and you are one of the people in the line that's currently working in that line and you have three years that's what you're going to get.
[00:08:37] The obligation that you feel to preserve the legacy and then make it better, which is also pretty daunting because you look back in the history of talking to the man.
[00:08:45] How am I going to contribute to this and not just sustain it, but actually improve it. You feel that from day one there is a lot of history there and it's not just history to feel good about it, it's history just give you a sense of what you were part of and what they expect from you.
[00:09:00] It's also I've never worked so hard, I've never put in so many hours and I've never been more solely focused on one thing than I did in those three years.
[00:09:08] Even in the fleet, there was a little bit of a balance when I was at Top Gun the balance was skewed so far towards and I'll just say work just to be to make it simple, but the balance was so far skewed towards Top Gun that I honestly didn't do.
[00:09:27] I don't think I ever did anything from Monday morning at five o'clock in the morning till Friday night it probably 6.37 o'clock on Friday night.
[00:09:33] Those are the short days Friday afternoon is a short day. Everything I did was completely connected to work, everything.
[00:09:41] Imagine when you compare that to being out in the fleet, out in the fleet you got other things going on, right? You got manpower, you got administrative things that are happening, you got whatever deployment cycle and schedule and all this other kind of administrative stuff that just is totally gone on your Top Gun.
[00:09:55] The fleet is cyclical, so you have a work up phase and you have focus on this work up and you have deployment phase and that's a huge amount of focus and you come back and you kind of have, you know, a little bit of a let down phase, you lose some people they go well, so where you get some new people on board and it cycles and the pace cycles up and down, the responsibility cycle up and down, what you're trying to do changes all the time.
[00:10:15] Top Gun is a bullet train, it has been since 1969, you get on that train and there's no cycles, there's no downtime, there's no post deployment, none of those things happen. So you are just on that train all the time and that train is just moving and it never really slows down where when you're in a fleet squadron, I did my first four years in a fleet squadron.
[00:10:35] It cycles all the time depending on what you're doing and that the cycles don't exist at Top Gun. So when you went to Top Gun for the first time as a student, how long had you been flying in F-184?
[00:10:48] I started flying F-18s, if I can get this right in early 1998, and I got to Top Gun in 2001.
[00:10:59] So you were kind of a new me. I was on the the younger side in both time and flight time, so time and time and fine total time and then time in an airplane. So I was a more junior guy.
[00:11:13] There are certain qualifications you have to get and one of them is called a division, which is leading four airplanes or more.
[00:11:19] That's a requirement to be there. I got that call, I think like the week before I showed up to Top Gun.
[00:11:23] So I was really junior to be going, you know, not unprecedented, but I was much more on the junior side and more on the inexperienced side when I got selected to go to the course.
[00:11:34] And how did you get the nod and not someone else?
[00:11:38] I mean, some of it's a bit of a numbers game. Every fleet squadron roughly has about 18 pilots and it varies, but the math is typically one person a year is going to go.
[00:11:47] So in your three years that you're in a squadron, you know, maybe four, three or four guys are going to go. Now sometimes you get two and one year and none the next because you're deployed, but it kind of works out to one a year.
[00:11:58] But there's also a, you know, kind of a window of where you can go and I probably was competing with maybe 10 guys. It was not all 18, no, some of the squadron commander, some of the guys are, they're not really in the window to go.
[00:12:10] So over those 10, you know, peers that you have, you're going to probably see one or two of those in your peer group go during your time in the fleet. And it's based on, you know, your performance, it's based on how well you've done up to that point. There's a bunch of qualifications you got.
[00:12:26] What you doing one deployment at that point, I don't want to implement it.
[00:12:28] And they log every landing that you do in the career and it's all graded everything. And so you had whatever a bunch of tens and some nines and some other guy had a bunch of tens, but had an eight and they added all up.
[00:12:42] There's a little more subjectivity to it.
[00:12:44] And the biggest event is, there's big culminating event in the fleet and the Navy and the Marine Corps do a very similar similarly is when you get what's called an ACT air combat tactics instructor quality. It's like the big work up to kind of fully qualify you as a combat flight lead.
[00:13:00] And it's a huge process and it culminates with this kind of weak, long evaluation where an instructor from the weapon school comes out and you fly with this person for a whole week and it puts you through from beginning to end. You put to the whole thing at the end.
[00:13:13] He kind of determines if you're a qual and then he goes to your squadron commander and basically says, this is how this kid did compared to the dozens and dozens and dozens and dozens that I've done personally as an instructor and the hundreds and hundreds that we've done as a weapon school.
[00:13:26] And I want to tell the squadron commander where they think you are in their experience.
[00:13:32] And the feedback that my ACT instructor gave my squadron commander was enough for my squadron commander to look at all the other things he had and then get this external feedback to say, how I'm going to send Dave to Topga.
[00:13:43] Do you guys dog fight in like your regular squadron? Yes. You're going against each other. Yes.
[00:13:49] And how many guys in the regular squadron have been to Topga and before? I think when I was there the first time there were two patchwares in my squadron. So if 18 guys I think two had were top congratulations.
[00:14:01] I think you can kick everyone's ass pretty much. Yep, they're pretty much.
[00:14:05] So you get the nod you go when you when you show up there, do you have any inkling in your head that you're going to do well that you're going to be able to hang you're just like you took no 100% that you're getting in with the black and with the sharks and with the black belts.
[00:14:17] So I don't have a feeling that I'm not going to succeed, but I have to be totally honest. I don't have a sense that I'm going to go that I'm going to dominate. I don't walk in there and day one thinking I'm going to crush this place. I wasn't afraid of failing.
[00:14:29] And you know, I've had that feeling in different places. I remember going to OCS the first time thinking, oh man, I might be in over my head here, but I had no sense of how long and OCS.
[00:14:39] Probably a week took me about a week to figure it out at OCS. First week was just kind of a state of paranoia like I'm not supposed to be here. I think I made a mistake. I'm in over my head.
[00:14:49] Did you not know what you were getting into?
[00:14:51] I didn't. I did kind of sort of, but I didn't quite get it until I got there.
[00:14:57] All the things leading up to OCS were just a whole bunch of administrative things they get you there.
[00:15:03] Like paperwork and interviews and applications and GPA and all. Just a bunch of stuff. All this is on.
[00:15:09] You know, you have to run physical fitness tests and show that you're qualified, but nobody ever, I never replicated that experience at all.
[00:15:17] Can we meet another loss of freedom of any kind?
[00:15:20] Can we meet another loss of freedom? And then what kind of shocked me for me at OCS and it was a little bit of a detour.
[00:15:27] When I got to OCS, I looked around and everybody looked the way they looked. They all would bigger and stronger than me.
[00:15:33] And the kind of me and we think like, oh man, I'm supposed to look and be, I'm supposed to be six foot one and two and a half pounds.
[00:15:41] That's what I'm supposed to look like. And I didn't. I was 18 and OCS. I mean, I was small.
[00:15:46] And I kind of told myself that what I was on paper wasn't who I was in real life.
[00:15:53] I'd never really been tested. I'd never been put in a situation. I didn't think I could handle.
[00:15:57] And I get to OCS and 36 hours after you get there, you're on the first platoon run.
[00:16:03] And I'm like, I can't run this fast. I've never run this fast in my life. How is everybody running this fast?
[00:16:09] I remember looking around thinking, this is nuts.
[00:16:11] I had enough fortitude in my mind to not quit.
[00:16:15] And the thing that helped me the most about OCS is the first time somebody else quit.
[00:16:19] And the first time I saw somebody else quit when I got over the how weird it looked to see somebody quit
[00:16:25] That I see was a little, little, feel for little help for me.
[00:16:29] And the first week, people are quitting left and right. And every one of those times was helped me.
[00:16:35] Go hang on a second. I can do this until I got to point my, this is no factor.
[00:16:39] And the latter half of OCS was almost fun. I'm not going to say fun, but he got pretty close.
[00:16:45] And by the end of OCS, I thought I was 10 feet tall. But I, that was the only real time of my life that I went somewhere in the Marine Corps.
[00:16:53] I don't think I, I might have made a mistake here. And I proved, I, you know, it was a good test for me.
[00:16:59] So I didn't feel like that at top gun. I didn't feel like I was in over my head.
[00:17:03] But I felt like I was in a big, big, big ocean. And I was a pretty small fish. And I went to have to work really hard to get by.
[00:17:09] So how long is the top gun school? 10 weeks, a little bit over 10 weeks, but it's basically a 10 week school.
[00:17:17] Okay. So how many flights are you doing today?
[00:17:23] In the beginning, you kind of plan on to. And then about after the first third of the program, it's typically typically one a day.
[00:17:32] One flight is an hour, hour and a half. Flight themselves are about an hour. One one point one is what you're going to log for flight time for at top.
[00:17:41] One flight a day for five weeks. First, first, first couple of weeks. You said it's two flights a day.
[00:17:48] Yeah. So it first week is academics. Then you do about two weeks of kind of two a day. Then you got another academic kind of thing in there.
[00:17:54] And then you're typically for the last half of one flight a day. How many air combat do you get in an hour?
[00:18:04] So when you're fighting one against one, you're going to get probably four sets we call a set is one engagement.
[00:18:11] I'm going to start to finish. You can get four sometimes five. And then depending on how to go, maybe three or four is about right.
[00:18:18] Okay. When you start off, you just said one on one. That's where you start is one on one.
[00:18:26] Yeah. Me against you. That's where it starts. That's right. And I would think that because then the next thing you do is two against one, right?
[00:18:33] Yep.
[00:18:34] Is that right? That's right.
[00:18:35] To who's the other, who's the other?
[00:18:37] There's one bad guy and there's two good guys. The other good guy is a top gun pilot.
[00:18:42] Correct.
[00:18:43] That's right. A student. Yeah. So when you go out to against one, it's you with an instructor. Oh, against an adversary.
[00:18:52] God. Also in instructor. Okay.
[00:18:55] Yeah. Most of the fights you do up until the end, really heavy, heavy, heavy.
[00:18:59] The one against one and the two against one is you are by yourself or you are with an instructor as your wingman.
[00:19:04] Okay. Well, that's the I assumed it would be you and me as students against echo the instructor.
[00:19:12] And we would go out there and beat him up.
[00:19:14] There are a couple of fights like that. But most of the fights your wingman is your IP, your instructor.
[00:19:20] And that's because if it was two knuckleheads out there, we just wouldn't, we just wouldn't get anything right?
[00:19:26] It's not the wouldn't get anything right. It's that the closer the instructor is to what you're doing, the more he can help evaluate your performance and give you the feedback that you need.
[00:19:35] Okay. So you go out.
[00:19:37] Let's say I go out. I'm the student, you're the instructor. We go out. We dog fight against echo. We do three dog fights, four dog fights. It takes an hour.
[00:19:46] We come back and look. I've heard you talk about these freaking debriefs, right?
[00:19:53] What, what are you telling me as my instructor in these debriefs? What are you telling me?
[00:20:01] And how are you telling me the things that I'm doing wrong? Is it just cold blooded because look, we all know that you know more than me.
[00:20:10] And I just fully accept it and I'm like all years. Is that pretty much where people are at?
[00:20:15] Yeah, for the most part.
[00:20:17] Look, I mean, I do not want to understate that there are ego. The ego's out there. And it's a top gun. It's there as a student.
[00:20:25] The ego is usually connected to kind of the fear of being exposed as not as good as you are as opposed to the ego of I think I'm better than you.
[00:20:32] And so the ego reveals itself in different ways. But for the most part, most people get there pretty early on.
[00:20:37] And the disparity between the students and instructors is so great that people aren't really that afraid to just be brutally honest.
[00:20:44] Now, people aren't jerks about it, but they are brutally honest. And you figure out very early as a student.
[00:20:52] And two things you figure out is it's in your best interest to identify all of your own mistakes and your instructors mistakes.
[00:20:58] You know, if you can identify those two, because it reveals that you actually know what's going on.
[00:21:03] The other side of is if you don't, the instructors pretty much don't miss anything.
[00:21:09] So if you have a thought like, man, this is really minor. I'm just going to kind of not talk about this.
[00:21:16] It's going to get brought up. And it's always better for you to bring up your errors than have somebody else bring them up for you.
[00:21:21] And that gets, that gets in your head pretty quick.
[00:21:24] So when we get back from this thing, I'm going to go through the debrief first. I get to kick it off because I'm the student.
[00:21:29] And I go, hey, I turned to tight there. I didn't use enough gas there. I didn't know what I was for a second over here.
[00:21:35] I lost track of you. My wingman here.
[00:21:39] So this is the same thing at when I was running trade at, we would let the platoon's debrief first.
[00:21:46] Like, okay, guys, you tell us how it went. And usually the platoon chief will kick it off. And he's going to hit a lot of stuff.
[00:21:52] The good ones will. The bad ones same thing that we either covered up or even worse.
[00:21:56] They don't even know what just happened. They don't even know what mistakes got made.
[00:21:59] And, you know, so the platoon chief goes, then maybe the platoon lieutenant goes.
[00:22:04] And he doesn't see as much usually as the chief, but then the the task unit senior chief might go.
[00:22:08] And he's going to see more. And then the task unit commander, you should get pretty close.
[00:22:12] And my goal every single when I was going through training with my task unit, my goal was like the instructor cadre will be silent.
[00:22:19] Because there will be nothing. We are going to rip ourselves apart. So hard that the instructor cadre is going to go.
[00:22:26] Actually, guys, it wasn't that bad.
[00:22:28] Yeah, that was always my goal. So that's where we're going.
[00:22:32] Yeah. And are you having to teach me?
[00:22:37] Okay. So if you were coming to our desert warfare training and you're a new lieutenant, the first thing I'm going to do is okay. I'm going to say, okay, here's maneuver number one.
[00:22:45] Here's maneuver number two. Here's maneuver number three. Here's maneuver number four. You got those basic form moves, right?
[00:22:50] You got form moves that you're going to do. So what a contact front, you know, the enemy's out front. Here's what you're going to do. You're going to close terrain.
[00:22:56] Oh, the enemy's out front. You're an open terrain to different move, but there's there's a there's a basic number of moves that you're going to go through.
[00:23:04] That's where we're going to start is this what's happening or do you already know these moves?
[00:23:09] Yeah, when you show up to top gun as a student, you know all the moves. You have to have demonstrated some proficiency in all the moves to even get there.
[00:23:17] Give me an example of let's go. Let's just teach me a couple moves.
[00:23:20] Yeah. So and you know at this point, I'm going to call this.
[00:23:23] If you're not watching on this on YouTube, I'm imagining you might start moving your hands around a little bit, which is, you know, cool with me, but I don't want to keep saying the whole time trying to describe what you're doing.
[00:23:33] If you start talking with your hands, which you might, maybe you won't, but teach me a couple moves right now.
[00:23:39] Yeah. So when you start in the, we start in the one against one phase. So it's pretty straightforward as your airplane and my airplane, same exact airplane.
[00:23:47] You're flying it as a student. I'm flying it as an instructor.
[00:23:50] And like you said before, each phase, the instructor will demo a brief, but after that the flight lead and the person running it is the student.
[00:23:58] So he runs the brief. He runs the flight and he runs the debrief. And obviously the instructor's there to support through it.
[00:24:03] But the first set of moves would be when we, what we call offensive BFF, which means I start behind you.
[00:24:09] I'm going to be a firm. Sorry. Good question. Basic fighter maneuvers. So offensive BFF is the first flight you do, which is one against one.
[00:24:17] And I am being set up by design in an offensive position to fight to dog fight you. So we're going to do a dog fight and we're going to set it up on purpose that I start behind you.
[00:24:26] And so I'm going to put you in a defensive position and put me in an offensive position.
[00:24:30] And the only real objective there is kind of three objectives is the first thing I need to do is I can prove that I can stay behind you.
[00:24:36] Which is going to require me to do your the instructor.
[00:24:41] I'm the student. Okay.
[00:24:43] As the lead.
[00:24:44] You want to be, yeah, let me do that.
[00:24:46] Me the student is because I'm going to have more dumb questions.
[00:24:48] Perfect.
[00:24:49] So I'm the student.
[00:24:50] You're the instructor.
[00:24:51] Yes.
[00:24:51] The first thing we do is I'm going to start behind you. Is that right? No. So I got a backwards. So if we're going to do offensive BFF, you're the student.
[00:25:00] You're going to lead the flight. You will be offensive starting all day.
[00:25:04] So when we start the flight and we do those four sets, all four sets, you will be behind me.
[00:25:10] I'll be the instructor and your job is to maintain that offensive position.
[00:25:16] And the moves that you're going to do during that, there's only like three moves.
[00:25:21] The first is called an offensive break turn, which means that when I react to you as a defender, I don't like this because you're over my shoulder.
[00:25:27] I'm going to try to shake you.
[00:25:29] You have to show the timing and the sight picture to maneuver your airplane to stay behind me.
[00:25:34] And then the next move might be is that you have to be able to do a maneuver to avoid flying into the ground.
[00:25:39] And we have a simulated ground. So we say 5,000 feet to the ground.
[00:25:42] You have to do another maneuver that you can show me that you can transition down to the bottom of the flight and the deck correctly.
[00:25:51] And then the last move you might be trying to do is that you can put yourself in a position to employ a weapon.
[00:25:56] Now you know how to do all those things. You know how to do a break turn.
[00:25:59] So a break turn is I'm turning my aircraft.
[00:26:04] It's a U-turned years. Are you doing like a a a a a a shock and drive here where you go a little bit in one way and then you break?
[00:26:11] No the way is there anything like that that's not.
[00:26:13] No there's not. So there's that because we're keeping it basic.
[00:26:16] No, it's because there's actually kind of a science behind it. And there's in each situation, especially in this rudimentary phase of one against one,
[00:26:24] There's essentially one optimal way to maneuver your aircraft.
[00:26:29] And it's different with your defensive than if you're offensive, but as a as an offensive, so I'm offensive as the student or your offensive as a student.
[00:26:38] You don't have like 14 different things you can do.
[00:26:41] As a matter of fact, you kind of have one and what you need to be able to do is do it exactly right because if you're one second to late.
[00:26:48] 10 knots too slow or any number of other variables off you're giving away chance for me to get away from you.
[00:26:57] So for you to stay offensive and keep that offensive position that I've given you, you have to perform that maneuver correctly.
[00:27:03] Does the defensive guy shut can drive a little bit?
[00:27:06] No, to be quite honest with the defensive guy does is pulls directly at the offensive airplane pulls right out of him.
[00:27:13] Close as the space as much as he can try to create some space limit the space.
[00:27:18] And then I'm going to maneuver away from you based on how well that you do your turn.
[00:27:23] And if you do it right all day, eventually you're going to end up in the same place that you started.
[00:27:28] I will not respond by like you said, shocking you're driving or maneuvering until I see what you've done.
[00:27:34] Okay, so you're just being nice.
[00:27:39] I am flying my airplane the best way that I can until I see how you respond to that.
[00:27:45] And if you do it correctly, then I'll have to start doing other maneuvers.
[00:27:50] But if I just break into you and just pull my airplane right into yours really.
[00:27:54] Hard turn, call it a break turn.
[00:27:56] And you as the offender are really late or screw up a timing or go too fast or miss the cues to do it.
[00:28:03] There's not much for me to do.
[00:28:05] I don't have to do much because you've given away that offensive advantage.
[00:28:07] So you're flying flat, dumb and happy.
[00:28:09] I come in behind you.
[00:28:10] Yep.
[00:28:11] And you're just going to add some moment boom, you're going to turn left, right, whatever.
[00:28:15] And I just have to track you and stay behind.
[00:28:17] That's exactly right.
[00:28:18] It seems very simple.
[00:28:19] It seems very simple.
[00:28:20] Do you even head fake?
[00:28:22] Right?
[00:28:23] Because can I see, can I see your head and your canopy?
[00:28:26] So the way that the ranges that we start are typically a half a mile a mile and a mile and a half.
[00:28:32] Those are kind of just the pre-determined ranges.
[00:28:33] So you're way, way, way out there.
[00:28:35] Actually, for most of those, you know, at least the start you're using the radar as a cue to determine that range.
[00:28:41] You kind of have some eyeball calibration.
[00:28:43] But the head fake, again, someone who knows what's going on and all it does is just give away more of that.
[00:28:48] The head fake doesn't help you.
[00:28:50] The best thing you can do is just break hard.
[00:28:53] Max performance.
[00:28:54] What if I was a meag, you know, and I was going after you, what's the best thing?
[00:28:58] I'm on your channel.
[00:28:59] What's the best thing you can do?
[00:29:00] Same thing.
[00:29:01] Exactly.
[00:29:02] The tactics that we apply are the ones that we use in the role.
[00:29:04] How is it not good to give a little shock and then go the other direction?
[00:29:08] Because what that does is that creates separation between our aircraft.
[00:29:12] And if I'm offensive, and I'm the guy attacking on behind you, I want separation to be a
[00:29:17] maneuver, and pull on my weapons, saddle in the way that I want, and adjust the situation, the way that I'm looking to have it be offensive for me.
[00:29:26] If you minimize that separation and create a bunch of closure, meaning we're now closing the distance,
[00:29:31] I have a whole bunch of maneuvering I have to do to manage that closure, which I don't want to do.
[00:29:36] So when I'm on defense, I want you closer to this.
[00:29:40] Yes.
[00:29:41] When I'm on defense, I want you closer to me.
[00:29:43] That's correct.
[00:29:44] Okay.
[00:29:47] Interesting.
[00:29:49] Interesting.
[00:29:50] Just like you get to, your optimal position on offense is to have their back, because they can't see properly.
[00:29:57] They don't have any weapons that shoot backwards, right?
[00:30:00] No.
[00:30:01] You're right.
[00:30:02] So just like you get to, you want to get the person's back.
[00:30:05] Yes.
[00:30:06] So that's where we're at.
[00:30:07] So this is, this is day one.
[00:30:10] We're doing this.
[00:30:11] So all we're doing, so that's one move. You just taught me one move.
[00:30:14] I'm sorry. It took so long.
[00:30:15] No, I'm not the smartest guy in the world.
[00:30:17] The first thing you teach me is, I'm just going to break.
[00:30:22] And well, now it's, I'm, I'm going to break and, and you're going to follow me.
[00:30:29] Okay. What's the next move?
[00:30:31] Moves two.
[00:30:32] So you teach me three moves.
[00:30:33] Yeah, I teach three moves.
[00:30:34] So remember, you're the student.
[00:30:35] You're offense.
[00:30:36] Because right now this, this is easy.
[00:30:37] I'm ready to be a top of it.
[00:30:38] Yeah.
[00:30:39] You want to do his break? Are you kidding me? Let's do this. Like I did.
[00:30:42] Well, the interesting thing about the offensive break turn that I just taught you.
[00:30:46] The percentage of students that get that right in the beginning is zero zero.
[00:30:51] And the percentage of the time that you get it exactly right, meaning you've hit all your parameters,
[00:30:56] is even by the end, is still really low.
[00:30:58] Now, you've narrowed your error window pretty, pretty, pretty small.
[00:31:02] But even just the simple, when do I do my turn and when do I identify all the cues and
[00:31:08] exactly what to do and exactly how to make it happen?
[00:31:11] Just doing that very first move is almost impossible for a student to do quick at the first time.
[00:31:17] So let's say, I said, oh, what about a head fake, right?
[00:31:21] If I'm in the offense of position behind you,
[00:31:25] I can see the very first indicator.
[00:31:29] As soon as I see your flaps do whatever they move a little bit and I'm on it.
[00:31:34] Yes.
[00:31:35] The quicker I react, the better I stay with you.
[00:31:38] Yeah.
[00:31:39] The more you can observe and there's multiple cues out there.
[00:31:42] It's the angle of your airplane.
[00:31:44] It's whether or not your afterburners have opened up.
[00:31:46] It's your angle over the horizon.
[00:31:48] It's how quickly you're moving.
[00:31:49] It's whether you're rotating or transitioning through the sky.
[00:31:52] There's a whole bunch of cues out there that you have to be able to identify in real time.
[00:31:56] As you're moving typically 400 and something not.
[00:32:00] So the closure is happening really fast.
[00:32:02] You have seconds to get this right.
[00:32:04] You call it closure, but we're both moving in the same direction, right?
[00:32:08] Not when I break back into you.
[00:32:10] So if I've got this guy behind you and you break your breaking into me,
[00:32:14] you're turning into me creating even more closure.
[00:32:18] So picture me, let's picture you flying around and you look over your shoulder and you think,
[00:32:23] and you don't realize this.
[00:32:24] Now all of a sudden you see somebody's there.
[00:32:26] They're behind you and they're in a really good position to shoot.
[00:32:29] The only place for you to go to keep him from shooting you is towards him.
[00:32:33] Because if you continue straight ahead or just kind of maneuver around left and right,
[00:32:37] I just stay back there.
[00:32:38] So you have to get, you have to turn back into me to close that distance.
[00:32:42] Yes, that's exactly like, for sure, man.
[00:32:46] Exactly like you did, sir.
[00:32:47] Yes, right?
[00:32:48] You, as long as you're looking away as long as they have your back, you're doomed.
[00:32:52] So your goal, you have to turn back towards them.
[00:32:55] That's right.
[00:32:56] It's weird for me, I think, conceptually because this is taking place over a long distance, right?
[00:33:01] Yeah, like I, when I'm trying to turn back into you, it takes, how long does it takes to turn back into him?
[00:33:05] A minute, 30 seconds?
[00:33:07] No, seconds.
[00:33:08] Seconds.
[00:33:09] Seconds.
[00:33:10] Yeah.
[00:33:10] So you will go from the time that you say fights on, which you would say and then I would start to turn into you.
[00:33:18] If you did nothing and just flew straight ahead, I would be passed you in four seconds.
[00:33:24] Hmm.
[00:33:25] I did a dog fight in an F-18.
[00:33:27] I did a bunch of I did a backseat ride up in Fallon.
[00:33:30] And I did a dog fight, I did a bomb run.
[00:33:33] It was really cool, but one thing, and I saw and did with the pilot guy was, you can fish tail.
[00:33:43] Is this right?
[00:33:45] Am I perceiving this correctly?
[00:33:47] Like we turned, like our wingman or whatever, turned so hard, you could see them fish tailing totally through the sky.
[00:33:54] Yes.
[00:33:55] So I guess that cuts down your amount of time that it takes to turn.
[00:33:58] Yeah.
[00:33:59] And that's a cue.
[00:34:00] You have to be able to see that and perceive that.
[00:34:02] And if he's doing that maneuver that indicates how fast he's going, it indicates his angle of attack.
[00:34:06] It gives you a whole bunch of information about what he's doing.
[00:34:08] You need to be able to perceive that that's happening.
[00:34:11] You can, in your own mind, you can figure as he turning a small circle of big circle.
[00:34:14] You can calculate all those things in your brain as that's happening.
[00:34:17] That is a cue that you need to know in that other plane as he's doing it.
[00:34:21] Are you getting taught these cues specifically?
[00:34:23] Yeah.
[00:34:24] You know the cues.
[00:34:25] You know the moves.
[00:34:27] The planes are being flown in such a precise and aggressive way that they are hard to see.
[00:34:33] And that's really what the debrief is about.
[00:34:35] Is dissecting the cues that you need to figure out in order to maneuver your airplane optimally.
[00:34:40] It's probably no different than Jjitsu.
[00:34:41] If you were to give me your back, say we're going to start Dave, I'm going to give you my back.
[00:34:45] And all I want you to do is maintain that position.
[00:34:48] How long do you think you would take you before I couldn't keep your back?
[00:34:52] It would probably matter of seconds.
[00:34:54] Yeah.
[00:34:55] But if you said, hey, as I start to lower my shoulder and I want you to kind of bring your hip towards me and you show me that.
[00:35:02] Now, there's probably 20 other things going on, but now I got that.
[00:35:05] It's going to add another two seconds before you, before you out maneuver me.
[00:35:10] Now you eventually you will.
[00:35:11] And then you show me something else.
[00:35:12] And now, so the goal is for me to incorporate all of those little individual things together.
[00:35:17] And the eventual goal is that I've started this offense position and I never give it up.
[00:35:23] So that's one move.
[00:35:25] That's one move.
[00:35:26] One move.
[00:35:27] What's the offensive breaker?
[00:35:28] Off, offensive breaker.
[00:35:29] Turn, turn, what's the next move?
[00:35:31] So the next move is when me is the instructor figure out, hey, you're doing a good job.
[00:35:36] My defensive turn here isn't going to work for me.
[00:35:38] He's just going to stay behind me.
[00:35:39] He's going to shoot me.
[00:35:40] I'm going to do something else.
[00:35:42] You kind of call that I'm going to chuck and drive.
[00:35:44] I'm as a defender.
[00:35:46] I'm going to maneuver my airplane in a different plane of motion.
[00:35:49] That first move didn't work.
[00:35:50] You followed me.
[00:35:51] And if I keep going, you're going to shoot me.
[00:35:53] So I have to do what's called the ditch, which I'm going to now point towards the ground and change this two dimensional fight into a three dimensional fight.
[00:36:00] Complicates the problem for you.
[00:36:02] It gives you a different thing you've got to deal with.
[00:36:04] And now you have to figure out how to chase me, not just two dimensionally, but three dimensionally.
[00:36:09] And you're going to have to follow my ditch.
[00:36:11] And we just call that simply a ditch follow.
[00:36:14] There's different terms for it.
[00:36:15] But it's, can you now take this two dimensional flat fight and be as effective in a three dimensional fight,
[00:36:20] which introduces a whole other level of complexity, now we're going downhill.
[00:36:24] And this is the big thing that Dan kept talking about, depending on the aircraft that you have in the power that you have.
[00:36:29] We're going to go from horizontal plane to vertical, vertical plane.
[00:36:33] And so this ditch move is the first, the first movement into three dimensional out of the horizontal plane into this other plane.
[00:36:43] That's exactly right.
[00:36:44] That's exactly right.
[00:36:45] And that seems pretty straightforward.
[00:36:46] It does seem straightforward.
[00:36:48] All of these maneuvers are straightforward.
[00:36:50] How, what else do you out when you, what's the minimum altitude above ground that you can start this maneuver at this ditch?
[00:36:58] Depending on the airplane, a good rough number is between three and four thousand feet before you think,
[00:37:04] Hey, if I go much, if I'm much lower than that to the ground and I do it, I have a pretty good chance to hit in the ground.
[00:37:08] You need several thousand feet to do it.
[00:37:10] Okay.
[00:37:11] Third move.
[00:37:13] The third move is that when I get down to the, to the ground, the floor, you know, we call it the deck, but you're down towards the earth, we now have to do a deck transition, which means that now I can't move in vertically anymore.
[00:37:25] Because if I keep going downhill, I'll hit the ground.
[00:37:27] So now I have to transition back into two dimensional fight and preserve my position in a two dimensional fight with the ground as a, as a component of this fight now, which was not a, not a factor of an altitude.
[00:37:40] This means you're, you're having to just gain altitude again. Is that what we're doing?
[00:37:47] The goal is to do one of two things either I now can gain altitude above him, or I can push him out in front of me and stay behind him.
[00:37:56] Either one of those work for me, but I need to have some separation from from the person I'm fighting, so I can employ my weapon.
[00:38:03] I can't shoot the guy at zero feet away from him.
[00:38:07] I have to have some distance between us. I can either have that distance above him or behind him.
[00:38:12] Just like you, just like this more moves into MMA, where if you're trying to hit me, I want to close the distance, get close to you, where your strikes won't really make a difference.
[00:38:22] Yeah, the, the parallels are, I mean, there might be some differences in terms of like the physical locations of the, of the machines against it with the people, but the parallels are exactly the same.
[00:38:32] As a, as a person who's offensive, if you think about finishing somebody, and the way I'm going to finish is through a strike, which is kind of similar to what those weapons are,
[00:38:41] I need to have some distance between you and me, to make that strike effective.
[00:38:45] Now, there's a distance that I, if I get too close, those strikes just don't work.
[00:38:49] There's also a way that if I get so far away, those strikes are ineffective, or it actually allows you to strike as well.
[00:38:56] And so I'm constantly managing, managing those, those separations and distances, and if I'm defensive, and I look over and I see that person's in a great place, it just threw a punch at me.
[00:39:05] I can either try to get away from him, which almost never worked at that distance, although there is a separation that you might try to put, but at that, we started off was like, hey, you're starting in a place that we know running away won't work.
[00:39:17] So that range of a half a mile a mile, it's designed to say the escape option is not available to you.
[00:39:23] So the only other option is, is I got to close that distance to you. I can't let your strike be effective, and I'm going to wrap you up is best I can't do that. That's the defender's job.
[00:39:32] So what's this third move called? The deck transition.
[00:39:35] Deck transition, but it sounds like there's multiple options on how you transition from the deck.
[00:39:41] There are, and all those options are all accumulating, they're all in accumulation of how things have played out the entire way from the beginning of the fight down to the end of the fight.
[00:39:51] So remember, I started that fight 6,000 feet behind you. I'm a mile behind you. If you do everything right, and I do everything right, guess where I'm going to be at the deck transition.
[00:40:00] A mile behind you. Six, six, six, six, six feet behind you. I'm going to be mile behind you, and I'm going to be good to go.
[00:40:05] But if you've done a better job than I have, I've missed some cues. I'm a little bit late. I'll lose 500 feet here. I'll lose 75 feet here. I'll lose a thousand feet over here.
[00:40:17] I'll lose another 50 feet here. And each one of those moves that I'm doing down to the floor, you've chipped away by the time we get down to the floor. You know where the fights against offender structures usually end up, either zero or nurse, the defender has become the attacker, which happens sometimes.
[00:40:32] So that 6,000 feet, it's pretty uncommon to be able to preserve that distance against a top-gun instructor from beginning to end.
[00:40:39] And each part of the fight and each maneuver that's being executed, you're gathering, you're fighting for that distance. Again, apologize.
[00:40:47] I'm the student, you're the instructor. I start off 6,000 feet behind you.
[00:40:53] You break, turn, you do it successfully. You're now closer to me. Yes.
[00:41:01] And then you break, turn again, and you're even closer to me. And you break, turn again, you're even closer. Then you ditch and you get even closer. And then finally, you either are so close to me that you're behind me.
[00:41:15] That happens. What's the other thing? If you don't get behind me, what if we're just now where really close?
[00:41:21] So just realize, obviously, we're not going to get so close that we're going to hit. And so that distance of going from 6,000 feet a mile to being something less than that. If we were zero feet apart, we'd be parallel right beside each other.
[00:41:34] We wouldn't be zero feet, obviously, the airplanes have a safety bubble between them. But when we transition down to the ground, I'd look across.
[00:41:41] And instead of being directly behind you, I'd be directly beside you. And I'd have no way to shoot you just looking at you side by side. We'd be in a completely neutral position where nobody can shoot the other person.
[00:41:51] And I've given away an entire mile of advantage that you gave me, or that I gave you with the start as the student.
[00:42:02] Okay. We're doing good. I mean, there's something still a little bit hard for me to understand at this point. You two, you two echo Charles.
[00:42:10] A little bit, but I guess so, because I keep got to remember that the distances are way far away. Like you don't want to watch top gun.
[00:42:19] It's like, oh, they're like right there and they're shooting each other. And you know, but they're like super far away.
[00:42:24] But they're also kind of not because it's only a, it's a second or it's two seconds or whatever to travel that mile. Well, the best thing I could do other than explain this better would be to erase from everybody's memory, the movie top gun.
[00:42:39] Because that's where your head's going. This isn't going to work.
[00:42:42] Well, yeah, because you're like, hey, close the distance. So I'm like, okay, close the distance. But then yes, you got to remember as well that there is no, because essentially like, okay, like you're in a duty to remember where it's like
[00:42:53] Green zone meaning save zone if you're too far away from the guy you can't punch a kick you whatever.
[00:42:58] Green zone when you're close, he can't punch and kick your effect. But there's the red zone, which is that distance, right? So in, if a, and correct me if I'm wrong if I'm trying to understand this, too, where that initial green zone, the out of range green zone.
[00:43:12] That's not an option in this particular drill.
[00:43:15] What is it? What is it? Is it like 10 miles, 12 miles?
[00:43:18] The separation in terms if I'm on your tail, how far away are you from me that I bet you're not in danger miles.
[00:43:26] Yeah, several miles. Yeah, and that's not an option for this particular drill.
[00:43:31] It's designed this one. Oh, and so on phase. We build it where you running away at the start. You can't do it. You can't just go faster than me.
[00:43:38] So you start.
[00:43:39] We start on behind you, you're in the red zone.
[00:43:43] And you want to close the distance, get close enough to me that I can't find my wife. That's another green zone.
[00:43:48] Right? The close green zone. Yeah. Well, he's behind me. My goal is to, they kick that six thousand feet separation and make it zero.
[00:43:56] Yeah. Or as close to it as I can get. Yeah.
[00:43:58] It's like closing the distance in your jutsu base.
[00:44:00] Don't want you. Okay.
[00:44:01] Don't you, when you hit a break turn, and I'm slow, doesn't that make me further away from you?
[00:44:11] No, because I'm turning back towards you.
[00:44:14] You're behind me. I'm rolling my plane and pulling it directly into your plane.
[00:44:19] And I'm literally going to point right at you as hard as I can and take whatever that I can get, whatever that six thousand feet is.
[00:44:26] And close as much distance as I can as fast as I can.
[00:44:30] And I'm not going to get much, but I'm going to get something.
[00:44:33] What's the turning radius of an F-18?
[00:44:36] It's totally air speed dependent, but at the speeds that we're talking about, the turning radius is probably 3,000, 4000 feet.
[00:44:46] Dang.
[00:44:48] That's tight.
[00:44:50] Yeah. Well, when you're slower, it's much tighter.
[00:44:54] The slower you get, the shorter your radius is.
[00:44:56] Okay.
[00:44:57] And so even that point that you made about the turning radius, that's a massive calculation.
[00:45:01] You're getting deployed right there.
[00:45:03] You know what your airplane is capable of doing at 18,000 feet at 400 knots in full after burger.
[00:45:11] Because it's different than what your airplane can do at 10,000 feet at 250 knots.
[00:45:16] And it's varies in every three-dimensional plane.
[00:45:19] It varies.
[00:45:20] And I have to figure out, I'm going to determine what your airplane is capable of doing and base my maneuver, part of my maneuver, base on that.
[00:45:28] That's why these simple moves are so complex in terms of implementation getting it right, because there's so many things going on.
[00:45:35] Because even your physical ability in your aircraft changes base in your altitude in your speed.
[00:45:40] It's constantly a variable.
[00:45:41] It isn't.
[00:45:42] You have a team just as this.
[00:45:44] Every single altitude, every single air speed, every single throttle position has a different output capability that you're able to generate dramatic differences.
[00:45:53] Yeah.
[00:45:54] Very dramatic. What an airplane can do at 15,000 feet versus what an airplane can do at 5,000 feet is dramatic.
[00:46:00] Be a different percentage wise.
[00:46:02] Just rough percentage wise.
[00:46:04] You probably have your turn radius of probably a third the size that low altitude then it would be up at altitude.
[00:46:11] So instead of you're talking through to 4,000 feet, you're talking closer to, and I'll just keep it generic, but you know, a thousand to 1,500 window.
[00:46:18] Much, much, much smaller.
[00:46:21] Okay. So we get done with our first three engagements on my first flight.
[00:46:26] I did whatever job.
[00:46:29] You know, I did a pretty crappy job because no one does it the first time.
[00:46:33] That's right.
[00:46:34] Okay. So now we come back in for the debrief.
[00:46:37] And what do we look, are we looking at a dry erase board? Are we picking up the little planes with the sticks on them?
[00:46:43] Both.
[00:46:44] You're looking at a straight up dry erase board with colored pens.
[00:46:47] Do we have video? Yep. And we got video. We've got the what's called the HUD view, essentially the first person view of the pilots view of both aircraft.
[00:46:56] Do you replay like the radar as well or not really?
[00:47:00] Not in the 101 phase.
[00:47:01] True dimensional.
[00:47:02] Yeah. Well, it's not that it's two dimensional.
[00:47:04] It's that, you know, you just only want aircraft.
[00:47:07] So in terms of how you're managing that system is not that important.
[00:47:10] When you account for how well you shot your weapons, you might look at that.
[00:47:13] But 95% of what you're looking at is just the altitude and the air speed and the angle of attack of each airplane through that pilots view.
[00:47:21] Okay.
[00:47:22] So now your debriefing me how much do I as the student?
[00:47:27] What percentage, you go, okay, Jocca, what'd you see up there?
[00:47:31] You've got how many points do you have on your checklist?
[00:47:34] Me and the stakes that I made.
[00:47:35] Instructor.
[00:47:37] 20.
[00:47:38] Okay. How many do I get? How many do you say you tell me to debrief? How many do I?
[00:47:42] And I'm a humble guy. Yeah.
[00:47:44] And I have a good attitude and I'm trying to give you a good percentage.
[00:47:47] Do I get, do I get seven? Do I get ten?
[00:47:49] I was going to say five or six on day one. You're going to get five or six.
[00:47:52] You're going to get the big ones. You're going to get the big ones.
[00:47:54] Again, you've known these maneuvers.
[00:47:56] You've been flying at 15s for three years.
[00:47:58] You've been through a training course.
[00:48:00] You're going to get all the big ones for the most part.
[00:48:02] You know, here and there, we, we, we, some folks kind of get overwhelmed with the most part.
[00:48:06] You've got the big ones.
[00:48:07] You're now doing an assessment of me.
[00:48:10] Like, this is just in your own head.
[00:48:12] Because are we paired up for the whole time where it's off gone? Is it you and me?
[00:48:15] No, no, but you're going to see me five more times eight more times.
[00:48:18] Whatever the numbers.
[00:48:20] You're looking at me and you're going, yeah.
[00:48:24] Or you're going, um, guys, got some potential.
[00:48:27] It's not bad.
[00:48:29] Is that based on my experience?
[00:48:31] Is that based on, uh, the time I've gotten the aircraft?
[00:48:35] Is it based on, hey, this guy's got a little natural ability.
[00:48:39] Yeah, I think it's all the above, man.
[00:48:42] It is.
[00:48:43] I've listened to you talk about this when you first lock up in your jutsu.
[00:48:48] And you, you, you don't know a hundred percent of this other guy.
[00:48:52] But you know a lot right away.
[00:48:54] Right away.
[00:48:55] It's the exact same thing.
[00:48:57] Almost on that first turn.
[00:48:58] When I'm the instructor, and I'm looking over my shoulder on your very first break turn,
[00:49:04] I'll get about 75% of what I knew about you in that turn.
[00:49:08] And sometimes it's like, oh man, okay.
[00:49:10] This is going to be a lot's of learning.
[00:49:12] Yeah.
[00:49:13] And that's like damn, that was, that was pretty good.
[00:49:16] And you can feel that in a very same way in an airplane.
[00:49:20] It does not tell the whole story.
[00:49:22] But it gives you a really good cue and a really good indicator of who that person is in terms of flying the airplane.
[00:49:28] And that's a big part of it.
[00:49:30] But I am much less concerned about how well you flew your machine.
[00:49:34] And I am about how well you can explain what happened.
[00:49:37] And so the debrief is still a huge part of what my assessment is about you.
[00:49:41] And I won't really know what that debrief is going to be like until we get in there.
[00:49:45] But if you show me if we lock up and I feel like you're in the game and you fly a really good airplane,
[00:49:51] I bet you that your debrief's going to be really solid.
[00:49:53] If I'm out there with a kid who's all over the place, he can barely keep his plane right near to be.
[00:49:58] It's very likely his debrief's going to be just as bad.
[00:50:01] You know what's interesting is this.
[00:50:04] I'm thinking about this idea of when you lock up with someone on the GJ2 mats of justice.
[00:50:08] You could lock up with nine different types of people.
[00:50:15] And they all feel totally different.
[00:50:21] But the indicators that you're getting are providing you with messaging that you have to have a high-end view.
[00:50:30] You have a high depth of knowledge to understand my clear examples.
[00:50:36] You get the guy that's just super strong.
[00:50:39] And he's super strong.
[00:50:41] So you feel all this tension.
[00:50:43] But you know as soon as you lock up with him, you go, oh, he's strong.
[00:50:47] He doesn't know what he's doing.
[00:50:49] Right? Like that's crazy that you can sense he's really strong, but he doesn't have GJ2.
[00:50:55] You lock up with someone that's all lanky and skinny and pale and just, and you lock up and they're weak.
[00:51:03] They're weak and you lock up with them and you go, oh, oh, this guy's got some skills.
[00:51:08] You can tell that when you lock up even though the messaging that you're getting to your brain is totally opposite.
[00:51:16] They're totally opposite.
[00:51:18] And the occasion you get someone that you lock up with you like, oh, this person's strong.
[00:51:21] And they know GJ2, this is gonna be fun. This is gonna be a challenge.
[00:51:26] But it's interesting that you can gather all that from, we just, you know, what that lock up.
[00:51:33] And maybe a little bit of a, you know, a little bit of movement.
[00:51:36] I'm gonna talk in two seconds and move in three seconds and move in.
[00:51:39] You're like, okay, this is gonna suck. This is gonna be hard.
[00:51:42] Or, okay, I'm gonna weather the storm here, this guy's strong, but he's no de doing.
[00:51:46] That's a, I don't know if that's completely unique to GJ2 and maybe you're getting guys that,
[00:51:52] Do you notice, do you notice that level of understanding based on this guy's, you know, initial reactions?
[00:52:00] You get a, you get a good read.
[00:52:02] The way you described it, I think is exactly how I would describe it.
[00:52:05] You get a good read.
[00:52:06] It doesn't determine the outcome.
[00:52:08] You don't know everything, but in those, and I'll call it the,
[00:52:12] You said first three, four seconds, it's really the first one or two turns.
[00:52:16] You watch a couple of turns out of a guy, you know what you're dealing with for the most part.
[00:52:20] And you know what a good turn looks like, then you know what a weak turn looks like.
[00:52:23] And if a guy gives you two weak turns, you kind of know how it's gonna play out.
[00:52:28] What, what is a good turn look like? What does a bad turn look like?
[00:52:31] A good turn versus a bad turn is a good turn is his,
[00:52:36] His angle towards you is exactly where it's supposed to be.
[00:52:41] There's no too high or no too low.
[00:52:43] It's exactly on the plane that it's supposed to be down to the degree and you're like,
[00:52:46] Wow, like he gave me, he gave away nothing in that turn.
[00:52:49] Because I can over steer.
[00:52:51] You can, you can over steer.
[00:52:52] I can understand.
[00:52:53] That's right. You can do both.
[00:52:54] You can pull not enough.
[00:52:55] You can pull too much.
[00:52:56] You can overturn.
[00:52:57] You can under turn.
[00:52:58] You could be a little late under after burger.
[00:53:01] You could be a little early under after burger and get going a little too fast.
[00:53:05] And it opens up your circle even bigger, which gives me even more room.
[00:53:08] And so the margin of that of the four or five things that you're in control of,
[00:53:13] You got to get them now.
[00:53:14] Hold on.
[00:53:15] Yeah.
[00:53:15] You just said it gives you more room.
[00:53:17] It gives you more room.
[00:53:19] Because I hit, I thought you, I thought you wanted to have more room.
[00:53:25] Oh, no, you want to close.
[00:53:26] Okay, I got it.
[00:53:27] I got it.
[00:53:27] No, it's definitely confusing to me.
[00:53:29] Yeah.
[00:53:30] And I need to kind of, maybe as we keep talking, I'll try to,
[00:53:34] There's a lot of what we're talking about here in this one against one.
[00:53:39] That's, that's really cool and reveals a lot of things.
[00:53:43] But it's a really small part of what we're asking folks to do a top gun and what you're really trying to train to.
[00:53:49] And I need to just explain it a little bit more simply and more room to mention in a way that hey,
[00:53:55] What the objectives are.
[00:53:57] So that, as we talk more about what top gun is, it'll make more sense.
[00:54:02] It's just, it's not quite as simple as I want to close the gap and you want to close the gap.
[00:54:06] What I'm really trying to maneuver to is a place where I can employ a weapon.
[00:54:09] And now there's like this weapon has this minimum max range.
[00:54:12] This weapon has this minimum max range.
[00:54:14] And I might try to start for a gunshot, but like, oh, that's going to be hard.
[00:54:17] So it may be all maneuver to a missile shot.
[00:54:19] Well, this missile has this envelope.
[00:54:21] Well, I'm not telling that, but this missile has another envelope.
[00:54:23] So there's a lot of overlapping things.
[00:54:25] I think the biggest takeaway is, is that in order for me as the defender,
[00:54:30] or you as the attacker, the offensive airplane, for either of us to succeed in our role,
[00:54:36] the margin of error at top gun is really small.
[00:54:41] The capacity to identify your mistakes and those errors is what the real test is.
[00:54:47] And that happens in the debrief, but you can fly a plane against another aircraft and look over the horizon and watch,
[00:54:54] I could fly against you.
[00:54:56] And I can tell from the way you move your plane through the sky, how good you are.
[00:55:01] And I can see it and I can feel it and I can watch it and I can calculate it.
[00:55:05] And I can most of the time in the first two turns, tell you exactly how the fight's going to play out.
[00:55:11] Now, if you show up and you give me those first two turns are everybody's good as mine.
[00:55:16] Now it's like, man, I don't know how this is going to, now you're in a real fight.
[00:55:20] Student against the structure, it just doesn't happen.
[00:55:22] Yes, it just can't bring that level of capability in that performance.
[00:55:25] You're never contemplating the outcome.
[00:55:28] You're mostly contemplating how well they minimize their errors and how well they optimize their performance to give away as little as possible.
[00:55:36] Okay, so in the debrief, you're like, hey, you know, you, you pulled too hard.
[00:55:43] Here's what happened.
[00:55:45] Look right here.
[00:55:46] See, see this, you pulled too hard.
[00:55:47] That's why I'm drifting out of the screen or whatever, because you pulled too hard.
[00:55:51] Uh, is this something like, okay, cool, got it. Is it a relatively easy thing for me to note and I'm learning it?
[00:55:58] It's like, oh, I mean, in your jitz who I'd say, hey, echo, you know, you're, you need to get you, you squeeze your knees together, right on an armlock.
[00:56:04] Hey, you could have done better, but you, your knees will lose.
[00:56:07] Squeeze your knees next time.
[00:56:08] And that's something he can factually start doing like at that next armlock.
[00:56:13] He tries it again and boom, he tightens knees and he gets it.
[00:56:16] So this is the similar level of correction and ability to do.
[00:56:20] Yeah, it's almost immediate because everything I'm telling you, you understand.
[00:56:25] I'm not teaching you a concept and I'm not showing you a move that you don't know.
[00:56:29] I'm revealing a little bit of an error that, you know, hey, what you did here was just, I hate you need it.
[00:56:34] You need to have your hips here and you need to have your arm here.
[00:56:37] But you, you get that, you're like, oh man, I can actually recall that my hips weren't where you said that makes sense.
[00:56:43] Now that I'm seeing this.
[00:56:44] And typically the way you would have that work is, hey, do you think you're early or early?
[00:56:49] Do you think you're early or late on this entry here?
[00:56:51] Mm-hmm.
[00:56:52] I'm super late.
[00:56:53] I'm like, yeah, why do you think you're late?
[00:56:55] Well, first I saw your airplane kind of move, which tells me I'm late.
[00:56:59] But I also look up and you're doing this airspeed 470.
[00:57:03] Hey, you know if you're doing 470, you should have turned already, right?
[00:57:06] So what's the, and see, like, hey, I need to start this turn sooner.
[00:57:09] And I need to look for different things.
[00:57:11] And you can go out in the very next flight and almost immediately make that correction.
[00:57:15] So that's good.
[00:57:16] So where we, where we're at right there is.
[00:57:18] I like, I caught this.
[00:57:20] I saw your airplane move, so I knew I was late.
[00:57:25] I've said this about you, Jitsu.
[00:57:27] If you have to think about the move, your 2A.
[00:57:31] If I take a second, if I go, oh, echo's arm is available right now.
[00:57:36] I think I'm going to go for it.
[00:57:38] He already defended it.
[00:57:39] Yeah.
[00:57:40] I had to have felt it and acted on it.
[00:57:43] That's something.
[00:57:44] That's exactly the same thing.
[00:57:45] What do you see?
[00:57:46] Yeah.
[00:57:47] What do you see?
[00:57:48] What's a little indicator?
[00:57:49] So the indicator is if I'm far enough away as you're turning.
[00:57:53] So you're offensive.
[00:57:54] If I'm far enough away and you're watching me and you're looking for a queue on when you should start your turn.
[00:57:59] If I'm far enough away, I kind of just, I appear to just be rotating in the sky.
[00:58:03] Because I'm so far, you don't see it.
[00:58:05] You don't see the lateral movie.
[00:58:06] You don't see my airplane moving across the sky.
[00:58:08] Almost appear to be stationary.
[00:58:10] But the closer I get and you can picture this.
[00:58:12] Like seeing something far away doesn't have a high crossing rate and something like a car.
[00:58:16] You look at a car, a car, a car, a car, a car, a car.
[00:58:18] I'm going to see it moving back and forth and as it gets close, you see this movement back and forth and it's a lot easier to see.
[00:58:23] What we tell people is you look for the queue that when he stops being stationary in the sky and starts to move across the sky,
[00:58:30] you're at the range at which you should start to turn your airplane.
[00:58:33] The problem is, is I'm certainly staring at going, okay, I'm waiting for him to move.
[00:58:37] I'm waiting for him, okay, I see him starting to move.
[00:58:39] And then it's your late.
[00:58:41] And so it's that visual cue of rotating to translating to the sky, which occurs at an exact range.
[00:58:50] It's a mathematical range of which you can see that.
[00:58:54] You have about a second to be on time.
[00:58:58] And if you're a second early or a second late, you miss that window.
[00:59:02] And if you're looking for it, it's too late.
[00:59:05] You're looking for the attitude.
[00:59:09] Is that the right word, the attitude of the aircraft?
[00:59:12] No, you're looking for the way the aircraft moves.
[00:59:15] I would call it the crossing rate.
[00:59:17] So if I'm five miles away from you and I'm staring at you, you could be moving pretty aggressively,
[00:59:22] but I don't have to move my head to keep up with you.
[00:59:24] You're so far away, you're just a little dot.
[00:59:26] You're just moving.
[00:59:27] The closer I get, the more it's obvious, I could, oh, he's actually moving back and forth.
[00:59:31] You know, these really small turns actually, the closer get our huge turns.
[00:59:35] And so at some point, the turn of you rotating through the sky actually appears to be moving across the sky.
[00:59:42] Got it.
[00:59:43] That range, I'll say it roughly a mile, just keep it simple.
[00:59:47] That's the point at which you can, you can, that transition from rotating to moving.
[00:59:52] That's about at that mile and you have to know where that is.
[00:59:54] As soon as that happens, you have to start turning.
[00:59:57] And I'm, I'm teaching you to look for that.
[01:00:00] Now, you already know, that's, you already know what that is.
[01:00:04] You can explain it.
[01:00:05] You can teach it.
[01:00:06] But it's the ability to do it against an aircraft moving as dynamically and as aggressively as I'm going to be when you're fighting me is where the challenge comes from.
[01:00:15] And to prepare for this, to come to school, a lot of the guys you've been flying with don't show you the optimal maneuvers.
[01:00:26] They show you a pretty good maneuver, but not an ideal maneuver.
[01:00:29] And that's just because they're lack of ability.
[01:00:31] They're just not as good.
[01:00:32] And, you know, you've talked about when, when guys like Dean train to go fight in the UFC, they don't just have one training partner.
[01:00:41] They have one guy who's exceptionally good at, maybe this one, that he's really good at grappling.
[01:00:45] Maybe this guy's really good at striking.
[01:00:47] Maybe this guy's really good at judicious.
[01:00:48] And he's going to train to be really good in all those things.
[01:00:50] That's supposed to just, his training partner, well, he's a little weak in this, but he's my training partner.
[01:00:54] Hey, if my training partner has some strength here, but he's not great here, you're going to show up to top gun and we're talking about this one particular skill.
[01:01:01] Skill, you're going to get overwhelmed.
[01:01:04] All right, so how many flights do we do like this where we're just one on one?
[01:01:10] Five, six.
[01:01:12] Do you ever go as the instructor? Do you ever go on offense?
[01:01:17] Or is that just too easy or is that part of it?
[01:01:19] That's part of it. That's, that's the next flight.
[01:01:21] The next flight.
[01:01:22] Yep. Once you, you don't let me get another crack at the title.
[01:01:26] Well, if you're, if you're fight is so bad that you couldn't even stay behind me, we're going to go do it again.
[01:01:32] But as soon as you prove to me, hey, you've demonstrated that you're good enough.
[01:01:35] You understand what's happening, that you can maintain this offensive position. We're moving on.
[01:01:38] Didn't you say zero people execute a good turn?
[01:01:40] Zero.
[01:01:41] But that turn.
[01:01:42] So a marginal turn still keeps me in the game.
[01:01:45] You're going to have four different sets.
[01:01:47] So I'm hoping that each one gets a little bit better.
[01:01:50] If you have one of those three ranges that wasn't going to have you do it again. Hey, let's do that.
[01:01:55] Ninth thousand foot one real quick. Let's do it again. Show me one more.
[01:01:59] And if you're in the window and then in the debrief, you can really explain to me what your errors were.
[01:02:05] And I truly think that you understand what those were.
[01:02:08] I don't need you to go do it again.
[01:02:10] If I finish the debrief and I can tell you're lost, I can tell you don't really know what happened.
[01:02:14] And you didn't really execute and can't explain why.
[01:02:16] We're going to go re-fly that until you do it again.
[01:02:19] How many out of ten how many would you have to reload?
[01:02:23] Out of ten pilots how many do you have to reload and say you know what?
[01:02:27] Eight.
[01:02:28] Maybe nine.
[01:02:29] Nine out of ten.
[01:02:30] My my class.
[01:02:31] What did you say is the next flight we're already doing something else that sounds like we need to do this.
[01:02:35] Yeah, yeah.
[01:02:36] Well, what we skipped is something I've mentioned you once before.
[01:02:40] Most of those reloads.
[01:02:42] You don't even get to the debrief.
[01:02:44] We do what's called an immediate refly.
[01:02:46] We land. We go back and I say, jaco.
[01:02:50] Don't take off your flight gear.
[01:02:52] Sign for this airplane.
[01:02:53] We're going right back out and doing it.
[01:02:55] Don't you want to tell me what I did wrong?
[01:02:56] I'm going to.
[01:02:57] And in the time that it takes to walk from the airplane to maintenance to sign for the airplane and go back to the airplane.
[01:03:01] And that 15 minutes.
[01:03:02] You're not going to talk for the entire 15 minutes.
[01:03:04] Hey, I want you to start looking for this.
[01:03:06] You're consistently late.
[01:03:08] Look for this queue pay attention to this.
[01:03:10] Hey, and you just slow down relax.
[01:03:12] You're going too fast here.
[01:03:13] You're going too slow here.
[01:03:14] And I'm going to give you three or four things to think about.
[01:03:16] And we're going to go do it again.
[01:03:17] And that's usually enough to get you to kind of get back your composure and get back to doing again.
[01:03:22] And my first when I went through is a student.
[01:03:24] Only one student in my class got passed the first flight on the first try.
[01:03:30] One guy was his name Dave.
[01:03:33] It was not.
[01:03:35] He was a bit of a bit of a bit of a bit.
[01:03:37] It was pretty epic.
[01:03:39] It was not me.
[01:03:40] I was lucky enough that I had one refly.
[01:03:43] And it was that very first flight.
[01:03:45] I reflued that first flight on a immediate refly.
[01:03:47] And I never reflued a flight again, which was kind of crazy.
[01:03:51] Did you kind of want to get more refly?
[01:03:53] So you get more time flying?
[01:03:55] No, I didn't.
[01:03:56] I wanted to pass the flight on the first try.
[01:03:59] They, we could tell the story some of the time.
[01:04:02] But I got plenty of flight time.
[01:04:04] But I wanted to pass.
[01:04:05] I wanted to do well enough of my first flight to pass.
[01:04:08] That's what I wanted to do when I was there.
[01:04:10] Okay, so now we finished with this one on one.
[01:04:13] Yep.
[01:04:14] What's?
[01:04:15] Well, we finished with the first flight.
[01:04:17] Now, so I was on offense.
[01:04:20] Now you're going to go on offense.
[01:04:21] And I'm trying to shake you.
[01:04:23] Yeah, you're going to be on defense.
[01:04:24] We're just going to swap rules.
[01:04:26] And all I'm doing is doing a freaking tight turn.
[01:04:29] That's it.
[01:04:30] There's no shock.
[01:04:31] There's no drive.
[01:04:32] It seems.
[01:04:33] Why is it seem like that just like I could do something a little bit better.
[01:04:37] Yeah.
[01:04:38] I'm like, how come you guys couldn't think like me?
[01:04:43] Yeah.
[01:04:44] I mean, I think that you just you parallel is probably pretty good.
[01:04:48] If you're an hour going out there and I'm just going to,
[01:04:50] and I just start getting wild with you and just turn to some of these crazy things.
[01:04:53] And I'm trying to throw these crazy moves your way to try to shake you.
[01:04:56] Is it really going to be a problem for you?
[01:04:58] No.
[01:04:59] Is it going to make it easier for you?
[01:05:00] Yeah, it's going to make it easier than if I just do exactly what I'm supposed to do.
[01:05:04] And there's sort of one or two things that I really have to do.
[01:05:08] I have to put my body in this place.
[01:05:10] I have to put my weight in this place for this to work.
[01:05:12] And if I don't have those two, all the other stuff that I'm doing for you is it's like,
[01:05:16] what are you doing man?
[01:05:17] Like it's just almost like it's just, it does,
[01:05:20] it does nothing but make it easier for you to attack my position.
[01:05:24] That being said,
[01:05:25] if you're on defense as the instructor,
[01:05:29] you can do a break and ditch a deck transition and then another break and then another,
[01:05:35] like you can pile these moves on top of one another, right?
[01:05:38] Oh yeah, I mean this happens multiple times in a flight.
[01:05:40] Yeah, you're doing ditch and ditch and ditch and ditch and,
[01:05:42] the, the tapping several times.
[01:05:44] It's not just three moves.
[01:05:45] That those moves, sign in the middle of several times.
[01:05:48] So those are the moves that.
[01:05:49] Yes.
[01:05:50] The moves are, those are the moves.
[01:05:51] So, in GJ2,
[01:05:55] this is a really easy way to explain this,
[01:05:57] to escaping the mount, right?
[01:05:59] When you escape the mount,
[01:06:00] you can either, basically,
[01:06:02] you can either open the guy over your left shoulder,
[01:06:05] over your right shoulder,
[01:06:06] you can knee escape or you can elbow escape the right,
[01:06:08] their right leg or your, or their left leg, right?
[01:06:11] That's, you can go in any one of those four spots.
[01:06:14] And, you know, this is actually Dean Lister, material.
[01:06:18] You can go, you, so you have to try a first.
[01:06:20] When it doesn't work, you, you can try b.
[01:06:23] When that doesn't work, you can try c.
[01:06:25] When that doesn't work, you can try d.
[01:06:26] When that doesn't work, you go back to a.
[01:06:28] But the way you actually escape is a.
[01:06:31] d, b, c, d, b, d, b, a, c, b, d, b, b.
[01:06:34] b, b, b, b, b, and the wrong.
[01:06:36] That, that's what, so this is the same thing.
[01:06:38] Yeah, when you said, hey,
[01:06:40] teach me the moves.
[01:06:42] I'm making it, so there's basically three moves.
[01:06:45] Now, you, you are going to apply them throughout that flight.
[01:06:49] But you're not going to come up with like,
[01:06:51] oh, man, I'm going to come up with some crazy thing
[01:06:54] that's never seen before.
[01:06:56] It, it doesn't work.
[01:06:57] And it actually makes it worse for you.
[01:06:59] So if, if you're mounted, and I'm trying to get you off,
[01:07:01] I just am flailing right,
[01:07:03] I roll over on my stomach or do some.
[01:07:06] As the offenders, like, dude, you're not helping.
[01:07:08] Here, go, just do a.
[01:07:10] You can really, the best thing you can do is just do a break.
[01:07:14] That's right.
[01:07:15] Best thing you can do.
[01:07:16] Best thing you do is do a break.
[01:07:17] And then do a ditch.
[01:07:18] Yeah, and then do another break.
[01:07:19] Yep.
[01:07:20] And then do another ditch.
[01:07:21] Yep.
[01:07:22] Yeah. You, you only out of moves, by the way, the three moves.
[01:07:25] Yeah, and, and, and listen,
[01:07:28] sometimes you can't do a ditch.
[01:07:30] If you're too close to the ground, the ditch isn't an option.
[01:07:32] It's not available to you.
[01:07:33] Mm-hmm.
[01:07:34] If you do it, you will die.
[01:07:35] Period.
[01:07:35] So it is not in your repertoire.
[01:07:37] How much do you use a change of pace, like in basketball,
[01:07:40] you know, when you're dribbling down the court, you change pace, you go,
[01:07:43] you, you're going fast, then you slow down for second, then you go fast again.
[01:07:46] Is there any of that?
[01:07:47] Yeah, not really.
[01:07:48] Is that because it's too hard to control the rate of speed of the aircraft in a short enough time
[01:07:53] that it will make them react in a proper way?
[01:07:55] Yeah, I think that's, that's a big part of it.
[01:07:57] And, and, and, so getting from fast to slow is pretty easy.
[01:08:01] Getting from slow to fast is harder.
[01:08:04] And so the change of pace to me is more about,
[01:08:07] I'm going to, I'm going to try to get some air speed back.
[01:08:10] Let's say I'm going to tune to knots, and I'd love to be forging knots.
[01:08:14] I can't just go from 200 to 400.
[01:08:17] So I'm going to go to 220.
[01:08:19] And that may take a second.
[01:08:20] And I'm going to steal that 20 knots.
[01:08:22] And then we're going to swirl around a little bit, and then I'm going to see an opportunity
[01:08:25] like, oh, oh, oh, oh, juggle gave me a little bit of room here.
[01:08:27] I'm going to go from 220 to 250, and that'll be three seconds.
[01:08:30] Boom, I got it.
[01:08:31] And I'm going to steal that and then I'm going to get to fit, and I'm going to,
[01:08:34] so that change of pace is me trying to steal.
[01:08:37] But if you ever apply so much pressure to me effectively that I can't do that,
[01:08:42] I don't get that speed back.
[01:08:44] And you can actually find aggressive enough airplane to keep me from doing that.
[01:08:48] That I don't get to just steal that, that to date the pace.
[01:08:52] So the pace of that of changing air speeds, it comes in a pretty big cost.
[01:08:57] And so you have to do it really intelligently when you do that,
[01:09:00] and steal it every chance you get.
[01:09:02] What about when Dan was talking about going vertical?
[01:09:05] Yeah.
[01:09:06] So there's a really unique thing that they discovered at top,
[01:09:09] and when they talked about the egg about this vertical fight,
[01:09:12] is the way your airplane maneuvers vertically going from pointed up,
[01:09:17] so pointed high to low, is a your airplane is typically very slow at the top of a loop,
[01:09:23] which makes sense.
[01:09:24] You lose an energy to get up there, so the slow reward, the smaller radius is.
[01:09:28] So the tighter you can turn, but you also have something we call God's G.
[01:09:32] So it is pulling you back towards the ground.
[01:09:35] So the radius of your turn at the top of a loop is way smaller than your radius at the bottom of a loop.
[01:09:40] Because you're fighting against G going from low to high,
[01:09:43] G is helping you going from high to low.
[01:09:46] So if there's ever a place where you're above someone,
[01:09:49] and then below you, and all the other factors are relatively even,
[01:09:53] your turn at the top is better than his turn at the bottom,
[01:09:57] and it's typically a more advantageous place to be.
[01:10:00] And so the key would be is, how can I maneuver to a place where I can climb above you without putting myself at risk to your weapons,
[01:10:08] and then maneuver above you, and take advantage of that free G force that's available to me going from high to low,
[01:10:14] where you're fighting against that and you're losing it, going from low to high,
[01:10:18] and that's kind of the goal of that vertical fight that he described.
[01:10:21] So is that something that you would do?
[01:10:23] Yeah, I mean that's something you could do.
[01:10:25] So he brought up an interesting thing, and you mentioned this with boi-ty.
[01:10:29] I think the way you said it was exactly right man,
[01:10:32] so F-18, F-16, F-15, MIG-29, SC-27, all these airplanes in this generational world that I was in at top,
[01:10:43] going to during that time, they're all pretty good.
[01:10:46] And you know what?
[01:10:48] B-F-16 is a little bit faster than an F-18.
[01:10:53] But the F-15's got a little bit better turn race, and it's no different than,
[01:10:56] hey, maybe you're stronger than echo.
[01:10:58] But echo's got you know a little bit of flexibility, and maybe you've got some capacity that he doesn't,
[01:11:05] but none of that is exclusive, I mean, you don't get to just beat him because you're stronger,
[01:11:09] because he can counter that strength that you have with something that maybe you don't have.
[01:11:14] So on paper, all these airplanes have different strengths and weaknesses,
[01:11:17] but none of them are so absolute that you get to just beat me because your machine is better than me.
[01:11:22] It's always, always, always comes out of the pilot.
[01:11:25] Depending on who, what type of plane I'm flying against, that vertical move isn't awesome move.
[01:11:30] Some airplanes, it's the last thing I want to do, so I won't go up there at all.
[01:11:35] When Boyd comes to his conclusion, wasn't our aircraft in Korea worse than the other aircraft?
[01:11:44] In most ways, yes, most of the ways, and how was that not just a red flag that, hey,
[01:11:50] actually it depends on what the pilot does.
[01:11:53] Well, in Boyd's defense, Boyd kind of understood that.
[01:11:57] Boyd had the way Boyd explained it when he talked about EM theory that Dan was talking about.
[01:12:03] He explained it in a somewhat of a different way.
[01:12:05] He also evolved into a different airplane, the Phantom, but Boyd, make no mistake.
[01:12:10] Boyd understood that just because your machine turned faster, climbed higher, didn't mean you're going to win.
[01:12:16] Boyd understood that without a doubt.
[01:12:19] Because we know that there's other areas that we're stronger in.
[01:12:23] Other areas that we're stronger in, and I can actually assess in real time, how well you're performing your aircraft.
[01:12:30] So I can observe, go, hey, your airplane can actually do this, but you're not making it do that.
[01:12:36] So guess what? You're essentially giving that to me.
[01:12:40] So the strength on paper that says, you know, you can jump this high.
[01:12:45] Well, in theory you should have that extra three, that three four inches that you can jump it I can't, but you're not jumping that high.
[01:12:52] And I can see that and assess that, and I'm going to take that from you, and I'm going to make that your advantage is no longer your advantage.
[01:12:58] So how does Boyd then get to, hey, don't fight a, uh, meag with a, at four phantom?
[01:13:04] I mean, the way I perceive that is a failure to recognize a, how much training matters,
[01:13:13] how much, how critical it is to be able to observe all these tiny little nuanced things that by themselves may not appear to be a big deal.
[01:13:21] But if I find 20 of them in a fight and I put them all together, it's a massive advantage.
[01:13:26] And what, what, what science says an airplane can do isn't the limiting factor.
[01:13:34] Now there are some limits, but when you build an EM diagram, you don't account for Dan Petters and Stelslide.
[01:13:42] Sound in the EM diagram. It's not in the science because the science says the airplane is no longer flying.
[01:13:47] And these guys are like, yeah, that may be true, but watch this.
[01:13:51] I can go pure vertical to my tail of their planes slides back down.
[01:13:54] I can pitch it around with my rudder, none of that is in the diagram, and I can make my airplane do something the paper says it can't.
[01:13:59] And when I do to you, you will not know how to react, and I'm going to kill you.
[01:14:03] So that combination of the mentality in the mindset with the recognition that a fight is 20 things piece together.
[01:14:11] And all of them together is how you get to the outcome is why top gun is what top gun is.
[01:14:19] If I'm looking at that, like I just don't understand how I don't figure out that I can beat a Meg with an F4.
[01:14:30] If I know, well, let me take one step further.
[01:14:34] How do the engineers not know this? How the engineers not say, hey, here's what you can do with one of these aircraft.
[01:14:40] In that era, I think the way Dan yet describes it is, they didn't have the right mentality.
[01:14:52] These airplanes were not even designed to be dog fighters.
[01:14:56] They were convinced that that era was over.
[01:14:59] That's kind of like guys like in the Air Force guys like Robin Oles or such legends, because in the face of an entire industry and in the face of an entire era of
[01:15:09] the military mindset, he recognized that the thing that makes us better is how well we train and how aggressive we are with our machines.
[01:15:19] Not what you tell me the machine can do.
[01:15:21] And that's why guys like Yank and the do's that sort of top gun and guys like the Robin Oles of the world.
[01:15:27] That's why those guys are legendary because they fought against a trend that said this is a machine that's not designed to turn.
[01:15:34] If you turn with a Meg you're going to lose.
[01:15:36] It's like, well, we're turn with Meg's and I'm not going to lose.
[01:15:39] So I'm going to figure this thing out and some guys did and that was the origin of top gun.
[01:15:44] Is whenever anyone else saying you can't do this, he said, not only can we we have to.
[01:15:48] And that's pretty cool.
[01:15:50] The other I'm just thinking of of the test pilots, right?
[01:15:57] Because those guys are taking these birds and the engineers are saying it can do XYZ and they're taking it way beyond those limitations.
[01:16:05] Especially in that era.
[01:16:07] That's what I'm saying.
[01:16:08] Yeah.
[01:16:08] Yeah.
[01:16:08] Because nowadays maybe with commute computer modeling in AI, you can maybe get a little closer.
[01:16:14] But back then it was like, okay, here's the bird.
[01:16:17] Here's what we think you can do.
[01:16:18] What do you got?
[01:16:19] Dude, those guys back then in the Yager era.
[01:16:22] Those guys would get in the airplanes and even know if they were going to fly.
[01:16:25] I mean, what they knew on paper versus what was going to happen.
[01:16:28] There was a big gap there.
[01:16:30] Those test pilots of that generation, you know, that right stuff generation.
[01:16:33] And I mean, they were doing crazy things and having the discoveries they made and what they were able to do.
[01:16:39] Now, there is so much more modeling, so much more science behind it that look,
[01:16:44] they're still a community out there.
[01:16:46] They're doing incredible things.
[01:16:47] But typically when you strap on an airplane, you have a pretty good idea of how it's going to perform and how it's going to behave.
[01:16:52] No one knew like what they were dealing with in that era.
[01:16:54] How did you feel when you when you were flying the F-22 and the F-35?
[01:16:58] How much were you saying, hey, you guys told me XYZ, let me give you the real numbers over here.
[01:17:02] From from good deal.
[01:17:04] Yeah.
[01:17:05] Well, that that was kind of my life in the Raptor.
[01:17:06] I was an operational test pilot.
[01:17:08] So, not a developmental guy.
[01:17:09] That's that, you know, there's developmental tests, which is literally they built it and they wanted to go see it this same works.
[01:17:13] Our job is once they figured out the machine work, which is the Raptor.
[01:17:17] Operational test pilots go out there and figure out how to use this thing.
[01:17:21] And operationally tested in operationally relevant environments.
[01:17:24] So, not the science, but the operational piece of it.
[01:17:28] And you look, you had to know the science, you had to know what the airplane could do mechanically.
[01:17:32] But the coolest thing about being an operational pilot was taking an airplane like a Raptor.
[01:17:36] And then finding everything you didn't like about it.
[01:17:38] Everything you thought was wrong about it.
[01:17:40] Everything that the science said was good, but you knew wouldn't work in combat.
[01:17:45] And we got to identify and fix those things.
[01:17:47] And that was awesome.
[01:17:49] Because you took this awesome machine and put it in relevant operational scenarios.
[01:17:53] And you beat the crap out of it to see how it would do.
[01:17:56] Give me an example unclassified of, like, hey, you took your Raptor out and you said, you know what?
[01:18:02] You need to make some adjustments over here.
[01:18:04] And I mean, I know the acquisition systems in the militaries like crazy.
[01:18:10] Would you get real time fixes on these birds?
[01:18:13] Yeah, someone would get pretty quick.
[01:18:15] You know, we had to do a lot of prioritizing execute back when we're doing operational tests.
[01:18:20] So we'd get this airplane it have.
[01:18:22] We'd have this list of 30 or 40 things in this tracker of all the things wrong with it.
[01:18:27] And oftentimes what we thought was the number one problem would take the longest and cost the most money.
[01:18:33] But problem 5, 6 and 7 combined were less than problem one and they could fix it in a matter of days.
[01:18:41] And so we hit problem 5, 6 and 7 and got really quick turn around and made a ton of incremental changes that over time over two, three,
[01:18:49] and we had to make a couple of more of your period completely changed the capabilities of the airplane.
[01:18:53] We didn't always get everything we wanted, we didn't always get all the money we needed and we don't always have time to make all the fixes.
[01:18:58] But we had a really cool feedback loop with the engineers to fix the things that we said were important and make it fix it really fast.
[01:19:06] Okay, I don't run you back to top gone.
[01:19:08] All right, you're putting me through training.
[01:19:12] Yep.
[01:19:13] And you're judging echo and me.
[01:19:16] And you get your first lock up with both of us. You do your little assessment.
[01:19:20] What?
[01:19:22] Prioritize next.
[01:19:24] What's the number one differentiator between echoes?
[01:19:30] Top line capabilities.
[01:19:32] So you're going to get echo.
[01:19:33] Your new goal is just to train echo and train me to be as good as we possibly can get.
[01:19:38] What is the quality that you're like,
[01:19:41] Oh, echo's good at this.
[01:19:43] He's going to be able to excel in in this and he's going to do a little better better than jockel because I can see jockel is kind of lagging in his ability to.
[01:19:52] X.
[01:19:53] Yeah.
[01:19:53] I would say recall.
[01:19:55] From, because remember, I'm teaching an instructor.
[01:19:58] I'm teaching a teacher here.
[01:19:59] My job is to make you an echo teacher.
[01:20:02] Mm-hmm.
[01:20:03] In this, not just how to find the airplane, but how to teach flying the airplane is recall.
[01:20:08] Can you tell me what happened?
[01:20:11] All the things that happened.
[01:20:13] And recall is connected very closely to something we call situational awareness.
[01:20:17] So do you really know all the things that are going out there?
[01:20:21] In three dimensional space with all the airplanes in real time.
[01:20:24] The more you can process what's happening, the more you can recall what's happening,
[01:20:29] the better you're going to be able to teach this and understand what actually is going on.
[01:20:33] You could be really good in an airplane and maybe a little bit better than him just pure moving that machine around.
[01:20:39] But if you don't really know what's happening around you the way that he does, eventually he's going to out, he's going to outperform you.
[01:20:44] So it sounds like I need to have the ability to detach.
[01:20:49] I would agree with that.
[01:20:50] Did you identify that while you were in the, in top going in the Marine Corps?
[01:20:56] Did you ever identify like, hey, oh, I can see this guy.
[01:20:58] It's all wrapped up.
[01:20:59] Doesn't know what's happening.
[01:21:00] What will this guy over here?
[01:21:02] He's, you know, he separates his brain from his body and what's happening and he can see the big picture.
[01:21:08] Yeah.
[01:21:09] I mean, we, what did you call it?
[01:21:11] We used the situational illness.
[01:21:12] Well, the term of situational illness when people lost situational illness or no longer did what you just described,
[01:21:18] we just call it, we'd say, looking through the soda straw.
[01:21:21] I mean, which is very similar to, you know, we, I think you guys use a phrase front sight.
[01:21:25] Well, front sight focus isn't the best because front sight focus is a positive thing because you're doing it in order to aim it.
[01:21:31] We go on, we say you're, your target fixating.
[01:21:34] You're, you say, you know, you're staring down the scope of your weapon, which that is exactly what you're talking about.
[01:21:40] You're looking at it through a straw.
[01:21:41] Same thing.
[01:21:42] Yeah.
[01:21:42] And I think it's just, just, just, same, different phrase, same exact meaning.
[01:21:46] What that typically meant is that echo or you whoever's looking through the soda straw would just start to stare one piece of information.
[01:21:53] And in airplane, you got a whole bunch of things going on inside and outside of the airplane,
[01:21:57] plus you're hearing things.
[01:21:58] So you've got always different inputs.
[01:22:00] And I could tell when you are, or echoes looking through the soda straw without even seeing you because I'll say something to you and you either won't respond.
[01:22:09] You know, you'll respond really late. You'll do something wrong.
[01:22:12] You know, I hate this.
[01:22:15] I hate this. You know, I hate this because I know it's on video, right?
[01:22:18] It's on video like you're like, oh, here's me calling you.
[01:22:21] You know, here's me calling you again. Here's me calling you again.
[01:22:23] And I'm going, oh, yeah.
[01:22:25] I know I was not detached.
[01:22:27] It's crazy. What do you tell me? So we get back. I was staring through the soda straw.
[01:22:30] What do you tell me? What, what, what's your debrief and then what's your, what's your, what's your corrective measures that you're going to give me?
[01:22:36] When you're looking through the soda straw.
[01:22:39] Yep. So the debrief down with the flight and looking through the soda straw.
[01:22:42] I didn't respond to your calls.
[01:22:43] I missed a bunch of stuff. What do you tell me?
[01:22:45] So the way I, I'm going to have a pretty good idea in the while we're flying around that you're doing that.
[01:22:49] And I'm going to know because your missing calls.
[01:22:51] You're not going the way to suppose you're not hearing things.
[01:22:53] But when we get back, the first time I'm going to do is say, hey, tell me what happened on that flight. Why don't you just draw it out for me?
[01:22:58] Just run me through what you saw.
[01:23:00] And that is the standard debrief. The first thing we do is recreate the flight.
[01:23:04] And you get a marker. You get up and front of the flight. You get red pens and blue pens.
[01:23:09] You get good guys and bad guys.
[01:23:10] And you just need to draw it.
[01:23:12] We started here. We went here. You started here and, and that may be two airplanes.
[01:23:17] That may be 16 airplanes.
[01:23:18] But I'm going to need you to just show me your recall.
[01:23:21] And that's going to be my first real indicator other than me watching in real time that you've missed some things.
[01:23:27] And so after you draw it up and just say, this is what happened.
[01:23:31] Then we're going to put up the tapes.
[01:23:33] So before I get into your, and say, hey, you missed this and missed that.
[01:23:36] What I really am going to do is give you a little bit of a chance to now watch the tape and go,
[01:23:40] Oh, hang on. Stop tape for a second.
[01:23:43] I drew that we went off to the north and turned here with this group.
[01:23:47] But I'm watching the tape.
[01:23:49] Hey, that didn't happen. Now eyes in a shark-iron. Okay, that's a really good sign.
[01:23:53] Jockel maybe wasn't all together there.
[01:23:55] But Jockel can self-assess. He's detached in the debrief and he's, he's self-aware.
[01:23:59] The likelihood that you're going to go out and get better on the next fight is actually really high.
[01:24:03] And I don't need to give you a ton of debrief. And I might reinforce and go, hey, that's a good catch man.
[01:24:07] Listen for the audio on the next call.
[01:24:09] Did you hear the call that there was a maneuver in the north and he's like, no, man.
[01:24:12] Jockel says he missed it. Okay, these are all good things.
[01:24:15] If you draw it up, clear your missing things. You run through the entire tape and don't make the connection.
[01:24:20] Now you and I need to start back over.
[01:24:23] Then I need to draw what's up there and then I'm going to put some big circles in the boring go, hey,
[01:24:27] we're going to really analyze this engagement here and I'm going to play the tape and go, okay, stop, what do you see?
[01:24:31] Where's this airplane?
[01:24:33] Would you depict it? I'm going to show you that you missed something.
[01:24:36] And I'm going to have to kind of run through that whole thing in detail with all this data to show what happened.
[01:24:41] To try to get you to realize that you're missing things and the way I'm going to tell you moving forward is
[01:24:47] You are more likely to start to lose situational awareness after we get past to this phase.
[01:24:53] So once the first turn happens, you tend to get two connected or two engaged or two,
[01:24:58] Boresighted on this thing.
[01:25:00] And I can start to figure out what triggers you to get emotional, what triggers you to get,
[01:25:04] what triggers you to look at the soda straw and the start to call is out for you and get you to think about it
[01:25:10] before we go do it and then see how well you can adapt to that.
[01:25:14] How well can you actually pull yourself out of that detached and we'll go do that again and see what you're doing the next one.
[01:25:20] So I, you know, because you're not in an airplane because you're, you know, in a fake urban environment or you're out in the desert.
[01:25:29] Like this is a conversation I had more times than I can count with a young leader.
[01:25:35] Hey man, you're, you're all caught up in this. Here's what you need to do. You need to put your weapon and high port.
[01:25:41] You need to take a step back off the line and you need to turn your head and look around.
[01:25:44] Yeah. So it seems like that is a clearer form of instruction.
[01:25:50] It's an actual thing that you can do because it's a different environment.
[01:25:56] Is there anything that you could give them more directly to get them to take a step back.
[01:26:03] Put their head on this level, look around to attach. Is there anything better that you could tell them.
[01:26:08] I see what you're doing with, hey, here's all the things you missed and I did that too.
[01:26:12] I would do it with my little pocket recorder and everything.
[01:26:15] We had these laser guns. We had these laser tag system and they had little GPS's on them and those little GPS's would track where you are.
[01:26:23] And then we could replay the whole thing on Google Earth and these guys would have no idea.
[01:26:28] I didn't know my element was over there. I didn't know that's going to end.
[01:26:30] So that's the same thing. That's the same technique of listening, man.
[01:26:34] You didn't know the cell and was over here. You didn't know that there are soldiers already left the building and you didn't see where you didn't know the stuff was going on.
[01:26:41] And they go, oh, yeah, I need to pull back.
[01:26:44] But then I'd say, listen, man, you need to get off your gun.
[01:26:48] You need to get it a high port. You need to start looking around.
[01:26:51] You need to start paying attention to what's going on big picture.
[01:26:55] Is there any instruction?
[01:26:57] Like that, while I'm flying at an F-18, it's pretty uncommon that in the middle of a training flight that eyes an instructor.
[01:27:06] And we're going to give you cues to do the things that you're supposed to do.
[01:27:12] There are a few exceptions.
[01:27:14] But I mean, I could do it after the off.
[01:27:16] I mean, this is always, this is always like, hey, I'm right there.
[01:27:19] I'm after the off-m going bro. Oh, you can't let this happen.
[01:27:22] Here's what you need to do.
[01:27:24] Oh, all the time, all the time. And that's sort of the beauty of the tapes.
[01:27:28] You know, one of the crazy things is the way that the tape machines used to run before is that the cameras would be kind of connected to the canopy and record the screen.
[01:27:37] And then the reflection of the screen, you could see the pilot's head.
[01:27:40] Literally see his head.
[01:27:42] And I go, hey, listen, every time we're approaching a murder than 10 miles, I can see you staring at this display.
[01:27:48] At 10 miles. So what I want you to think on this, but every time you get in the reason 10 miles is important is that,
[01:27:53] we had a radio call that would come in and say, somebody would say 10 miles.
[01:27:57] And he wouldn't be hearing that call.
[01:28:00] 10 miles is the call that's telling everybody, start looking outside,
[01:28:04] start literally looking up and out so you can stop looking your screen to start finding the actual airplane itself.
[01:28:08] Hey, I want you. I want you to give the 10 mile call.
[01:28:12] You're going to be the 10 mile call today and get that guy to, and I would say, this is a way to get you out of the cockpit and up and out.
[01:28:18] And we would probably had a hundred different tricks and hundred different ways to give a guy something to think about, hey,
[01:28:24] this is where you get wrapped up. And this is a tool and a technique that you can use to take yourself out of being too attached and to detach.
[01:28:32] Ten miles call is an awesome way to do that.
[01:28:35] In Engage calls and awesome way to do that.
[01:28:37] Anything that you could help with that guy and the debrief because these are good guys.
[01:28:42] These are guys you built really strong.
[01:28:43] Ten weeks is a long time to share a lot of spare, very little space. Somebody, you got to know these students really, really well.
[01:28:49] You could have really on a straightforward conversations. You could build really good relationships.
[01:28:53] They would come around Saturdays. You'd barbecue and you just talk fine and you could tell them all the things and you wanted them to succeed and you would give them everything you could to help them get better.
[01:29:03] What did you call this recall?
[01:29:05] Recall.
[01:29:06] Can you tell me what happened?
[01:29:08] Yeah.
[01:29:09] Which is the massive indicator for I'm detached and I'm actually paying attention to everything that's going on.
[01:29:17] 100% if you are not detached, you will not, you won't know what's happening other than maybe what's happening inside your cockpit.
[01:29:23] But Topkin isn't about disunion or a plan that's you leading a formation of 16 plans.
[01:29:27] And you need to know what's going on with all those 16 plans.
[01:29:32] No different. And I'm not saying that you have to know every step that they're taking every turn of their mind.
[01:29:37] You know, there are times that you were detached from your task and they're maneuvering.
[01:29:41] But you know what's happening. These guys are shifting to this building. These guys are heading up to the roof.
[01:29:45] These guys are bogged down. There's a problem over here. Hey, I need to now pull some resource over here because there's no resistance over here.
[01:29:51] And these guys are kind of doing nothing and shift them up and that you can
[01:29:55] Randage your task unit in real time and have a really good idea of what's going on with all of them without being with any of them.
[01:30:03] And in the exact same way that's completely trainable.
[01:30:06] Does this athletic, how much does athletic ability play role?
[01:30:12] You know, I don't know if anybody is ever that I've ever seen like the connection between that specifically.
[01:30:20] But if you're a good athlete, you're probably a good pilot.
[01:30:26] And if you, you're a good pilot, you were probably a good athlete.
[01:30:30] And we used to say all the time that the joke would be when people are asking,
[01:30:34] I come to Top Gun and the joke would be as hey, can you throw a football?
[01:30:37] That's the question we'd ask. And it was a little bit tongue and cheek because I don't really care if you can throw a football.
[01:30:42] But it was the connection between those those two things. And it doesn't mean you had to be a superstar athlete.
[01:30:47] But you had to be athletic. It's physical. It's physical. You had to be athletic. You had to be physical. You had to be, you had to not be afraid of conflict.
[01:30:54] And did I care if you were the captain of your football team and heighten?
[01:30:58] Nobody cared about that stuff. But there was an absolute connection between being athletic and liking athletic competition and being good in the airplane.
[01:31:06] How about, um, how about eyesight, which I know back in the day was like the component Chuck Yager, you know, could like PID,
[01:31:14] Yeah, bogeys, just so before anyone is even close to seeing them.
[01:31:19] Same thing. I know you, I know you have really good eyes.
[01:31:22] And I did it the time I had, I had really uniquely good eyesight. I mean, I was picking off, uh, I could see things in the eye chart that were really good.
[01:31:31] Back and certainly back in the day that was everything because the only resource they had to find the enemy was their eyeballs.
[01:31:37] But I would tell you that it's still really important. I sat was really important. Now, one of the major discoveries that the military came up with in recent decades was that
[01:31:47] they would let you wear glasses. So, you know, if you didn't have good eyesight, they would let you fix it. But eyesight was really critical because there's a phase in every fight that transitions from the systems to the visual.
[01:32:00] And that transition was really hard. It's really hard to look at your screen and then look up and try to account for where that person is in space, clouds and all sorts of different things.
[01:32:11] And so the sooner you could see that with your eyes, the better, you know, technology has helped with that a bunch. There's cues now, little boxes and you can do that.
[01:32:18] I sat still important. It's not as important as it was before, but it was something that if you had, if you had good eyes and could determine what's going on at farther in just you haven't had an advantage.
[01:32:30] How much does luck play a role?
[01:32:35] It does. I'm a beneficiary of a ton of good luck. You know, all through my entire life. You know, and there's a bunch of cliches and catch phrases about what luck really is.
[01:32:49] Luck by itself would never, would never be enough. Just getting lucky and, you know, you'd come back and then man, we got lucky on that one.
[01:32:58] But typically the lucky things that worked out, you could almost always connect it to a whole bunch of things you did right to get to the point where something is just worked out in your favor.
[01:33:07] So yeah, to guys get lucky, then I get lucky all the time, but rarely was that by itself an attribute or a circumstance that was very reliable.
[01:33:18] Can you utilize, okay, it's so in Gigiitsu and really in any endeavor, you can, you can wear someone out, like in Gigiitsu, you call it gassing.
[01:33:29] I would imagine that that is a strategy that you would have, hey, I've got a bigger gas tank than you, or I can make you do the maneuvers that are going to burn more gas.
[01:33:40] Is that a thing?
[01:33:41] Really, no, it's totally, the mid 29 was notoriously bad on gas notoriously, you know, the next worst airplane for gases.
[01:33:48] F-18.
[01:33:49] The F-18. So we knew going into our fights that were always at a disadvantage and when bigger planes showed up like we talked about the S-27, that thing had a ton of gas.
[01:33:58] It's a hundred percent of consideration, a hundred percent, and you think about it all the time.
[01:34:03] Not to mention, in naval aviation, you got to go back to the ship. You're always managing your gas. You had enough, yet had enough gas to go back and get back aboard the ship, not some giant airport with, you know, 18,000 feet of runway.
[01:34:15] You had to go back and land aboard the carrier, and that was a gas critical endeavor.
[01:34:21] How many carrier landings do you have?
[01:34:24] Maybe 450.
[01:34:28] It seems like a lot, it's not that much compared, you know, they're a carrier guys out there with 8,900 landing, some close to 1,000.
[01:34:37] So it seems like a lot, but there's plenty of guys with a lot more than me.
[01:34:40] Did you ever, were you ever comfortable with it?
[01:34:44] I got comfortable during the day for sure.
[01:34:47] To be totally honest, I never got comfortable with the night landings.
[01:34:51] Never got to a, got that comfortable. When I did Afghanistan right after 9, 11, we were on the, we were the night carrier.
[01:34:59] So all of our operations for about six months were at night.
[01:35:03] Just by pure, just doing it every single day, it got a lot better.
[01:35:08] But the night landing was always in the back of your mind. It was always something to kind of contend with psychologically that the you knew it was out there.
[01:35:18] This is the first time reading a dance book.
[01:35:23] Look, I've been told a thousand times, a post-it stamp, and all these other things, and it's so hard, it's the hardest thing, and blah, blah, blah.
[01:35:31] This book was the first time I really said to myself, yeah, it has got to be a gut check every single time.
[01:35:40] Yeah, look, I've done a decent amount of flying, a bunch of different airplanes.
[01:35:45] I got to fly with all the services. A night carrier landing.
[01:35:50] There's really nothing else like it, and it is a gut check.
[01:35:53] And it's a gut check every single time no matter how many you've done.
[01:35:56] I got well over a hundred night landings, which on a ratio of day to night, like that's a lot of night landing.
[01:36:02] So it's a habit of being on a night carrier, which most deployments, you don't spend the entire deployment of night, and I just happen to be on one of those.
[01:36:09] It is, it's a gut check for everybody, the pilot, the flight deck, the LSO, the ship, the night page on a ship, on a aircraft currency, there is nothing in aviation like it, and it is a gut check for everybody.
[01:36:23] And it never gets better, and never gets easier.
[01:36:26] So, talk me through a little night carrier landing.
[01:36:29] I will.
[01:36:30] Yeah, night carrier landing is kind of the great equalizer in naval aviation.
[01:36:36] That's a thing that's out there that every fighter pilot is going to have to do.
[01:36:40] And no matter what has gone on in your mission, whether it's just a straight-up, just super simple training mission, you could have been by yourself just flying around,
[01:36:50] or you just did six hours in Iraq or Afghanistan, or somewhere else.
[01:36:54] You're going to come back and you're going to land aboard the ship.
[01:36:57] And no matter what you've got going on that, that always sits in the back of your mind.
[01:37:01] You've got to plan for it, you've got to count for it, you've got to manage your fuel for it, and you've got to recognize that more than likely, the hardest part of your flight, no matter what you're doing, more often than not, it's going to be the last thing you do.
[01:37:15] When you're coming back to the field, and you know you're coming back to the Marine Corps, station, Miramar, or wherever, you're not even thinking about the landing.
[01:37:22] That's just a no-brainer.
[01:37:24] Landing a regular plane on a regular runway, most of the time, is just not hard. And it's certainly not something you're going to sweat like, man, I hope I can land this time.
[01:37:35] It's just not something you think about.
[01:37:37] So once you figure out a land and airplane like an F-18, and a regular runway, you just don't really think about it too much.
[01:37:43] Carriers totally different.
[01:37:45] And so it's something you have to think about, you've got to compartmentalize, you've got to detach from it, but you can't ignore that it's out there either.
[01:37:51] So you've got to think about your fuel, you've got to think about your wingmen, you've got to think about the other 20 airplanes that are going to be landing on the ship at the same time as you, and the coordination goes along with that.
[01:38:02] And this is a huge choreography that you, the ship, and the other airplanes have to manage and coordinate, and typically, typically, the goal is to do it either no-com or min-com.
[01:38:15] There's very little talking going on in this coordination. You might get to sign an altitude, and you might get to sign what's called a push time when you commence your approach.
[01:38:25] And that may be all the talking you get up until the time that you're about to land.
[01:38:30] So you're kind of alone, yourself contained, and you've got to manage all these things.
[01:38:36] So night landings are, look man, they're legit, and they never get easy, they never get comfortable.
[01:38:43] The idea, I'm sad this before, right? When people say hey, what makes the seals good?
[01:38:49] Well, I think the thing that makes the seals good is that we have to work in the water, and the water is the same thing.
[01:38:57] It's an equalizer every time you're in the water, you don't even end a me to kill you in your in the water.
[01:39:02] You can, the water itself can kill you.
[01:39:05] When you have to do a mission, over the beach, swim in, you know, it's, you're weapons covered in sand.
[01:39:12] Your radio is get flooded. There's all those, there's just all these things that happen.
[01:39:16] Doing a direct action mission from home, these compared to doing a direct action mission that you swim over the beach.
[01:39:23] It's not even comparable.
[01:39:26] You could train, you know, you could take a high school football team.
[01:39:32] And you could train those guys in three or four days to do a pretty decent job doing a direct action mission.
[01:39:40] And they, they'd be able to pull it off to get them to be able to come over to launch from a ship and take Zodiacs over the beach and get on the beach and change out into their new gear and you, you, you need months.
[01:40:00] You need months, if not longer, you need, you need six months and you'd have a washout rate.
[01:40:06] You'd have people that are not capable because it look on a football team.
[01:40:10] You know, how many people on a football team? The whole team?
[01:40:14] What, high school? Yeah. Let's go college.
[01:40:16] 100, 105.
[01:40:18] 105.
[01:40:19] Totally.
[01:40:20] Okay. So 105 that are going to train to do a land direct action mission.
[01:40:25] You're going to have five or six that can't do it.
[01:40:29] They're, they're, they got some issue. They're not safe. They're just not with it.
[01:40:33] Whatever, whatever the case may be. You put them in the water and you start swimming over the beach.
[01:40:38] You're looking at your, you're losing 50% of those guys.
[01:40:42] Maybe 70% of those guys that are just, they can't.
[01:40:45] They're not good enough swimmers. They're not good enough, you know, in the water. They're not comfortable.
[01:40:49] They're, they're cold.
[01:40:51] Are there so many things?
[01:40:52] That right there is the difference.
[01:40:54] And when I start thinking about landing on aircraft carriers,
[01:40:58] it's got to be somewhat similar because the weather, you're landing on a thing that is moving.
[01:41:06] Yeah.
[01:41:08] Dude, it's, that's so true, man.
[01:41:10] I mean, I, I think the thing about the water is when you're operating around the water.
[01:41:16] You can never, you can't take a time out. You can't pause.
[01:41:20] You can't just stop for a minute.
[01:41:22] Look, if I'm coming back to Miramar and there's a problem in the Miramar,
[01:41:25] I got 10 other airports within 30 minutes that I can go to.
[01:41:29] I can go back over to you, but where the weather's always perfect.
[01:41:32] I can go to North Island. I can go to LA.
[01:41:35] I've got so many different options.
[01:41:37] And the, the water never lets you pause.
[01:41:43] You cannot pause. You can't just wait.
[01:41:46] You can't just decide not to do it.
[01:41:48] There's no divert. That's just down the road.
[01:41:51] This, this, this awesome seal captain who is of prior marine and, and, and, and, and a, and a little bit of a rebellious guy.
[01:42:02] He gave a speech that I was at.
[01:42:04] And I don't even want to give any details about where is that, what was it about?
[01:42:07] But he, he was making a dig at some of the other personnel that, that he was working with at the time.
[01:42:15] And we, he said, it was a great speech.
[01:42:18] He was saying, look, where in the Navy.
[01:42:21] And what's different about the Navy is, we come from ships.
[01:42:25] And on a ship.
[01:42:27] You don't have any choice, but to fight.
[01:42:31] There is no retreat on a ship.
[01:42:34] Those are our routes.
[01:42:35] Now, look, he took the most absolutely romantic view that a, that, that, a, that, a, the most heroic view that a human could ever take about tying,
[01:42:39] you know, the modern Navy and, and, especially the seal teams to rooting our keracys,
[01:42:45] and especially the seal teams to rooting our character
[01:42:48] in the fact that on a ship, there is no retreat,
[01:42:51] there is no surrender if the ship goes down,
[01:42:54] we all die, that's our attitude.
[01:42:57] I mean, you wanna talk about a young Jacob it,
[01:42:59] getting pumped up, but fire.
[01:43:01] That's what I'm thinking right now is when you're at sea,
[01:43:04] you can either land on this carrier,
[01:43:07] or you can land on this carrier.
[01:43:08] That's it, I mean, that's it.
[01:43:10] There is no other options.
[01:43:11] Yeah, and if you got a problem,
[01:43:12] or you're running low on gas, or you've got a mechanical issue
[01:43:17] that's gonna create some problems for you,
[01:43:19] you're going back to the ship.
[01:43:21] I mean, if you take your seals and you load them up
[01:43:23] into boats and you jump off the bigger ship to go do
[01:43:27] some sort of insertion, and the weather is so bad
[01:43:29] and the environment is so bad, and then everything's like,
[01:43:30] hey, we can't do this training exercise.
[01:43:32] It's not safe.
[01:43:32] The training exercise is canceled.
[01:43:34] What do you have to do?
[01:43:35] Yeah, we gotta go drive those boats into the well-deck
[01:43:38] of the ship in 12 foot seas, which is a complete nightmare.
[01:43:42] You're not into parking lot, thinking this is a bad idea.
[01:43:44] We can't do this, and the weather is not gonna allow
[01:43:47] this training mission to happen.
[01:43:49] Believe me, we would say, you know what?
[01:43:51] Let's just go totally.
[01:43:53] It's easy than training.
[01:43:54] Back in the day.
[01:43:55] Yeah, yeah.
[01:43:55] Yeah, and so the thing about carrier landings
[01:43:58] is there's really, there's no training
[01:44:02] and there's no real life.
[01:44:03] It's just real life all the time.
[01:44:07] And there's another thing, there's a psychological component
[01:44:11] about the ship that kind of, it reminds you
[01:44:16] what it is every time.
[01:44:18] So you get, you're coming back, you may be over the beach
[01:44:20] and you've done a long mission, or it doesn't matter
[01:44:23] what you're doing.
[01:44:24] At some point, you end up what's called the stack.
[01:44:26] And all the stack is, is about 15, 20 miles from the boat
[01:44:29] at every altitude, you know, 5,000, 6,000, 7,000,
[01:44:31] there's an airplane in every altitude.
[01:44:33] And they just stack them up from five up to however many
[01:44:36] there are up to 20,000 feet, or if there's 15,000,
[01:44:38] something like that.
[01:44:39] And you just sit in the stack.
[01:44:41] And you've got your gas, and somebody will come up
[01:44:44] and then they'll go, hey, you know, aircraft 204,
[01:44:47] your push time is time 1015.
[01:44:50] Roger that.
[01:44:51] That's the only call you're gonna get.
[01:44:52] So I'm at 9,000 feet, I look at my watch, or I look at the clock.
[01:44:56] And I am now wait until 1015 for me to push.
[01:44:59] And then there's a very particular route
[01:45:01] and a particular heading and turns and out.
[01:45:03] And there's a whole sequence that we all memorized how to do it.
[01:45:05] And it's not that complicated, but you gotta do it.
[01:45:07] But the entire time, the entire time, as you're looking out,
[01:45:10] you can't see anything.
[01:45:12] It's just dark, it's just pitch black.
[01:45:15] Every now and then there's like a nice moon,
[01:45:16] the water has a little white reflection of the moon,
[01:45:18] which looks kind of cool, but you can't see the ship.
[01:45:22] When you're 20 miles from an airport,
[01:45:24] you see the airport, you see the runway lights,
[01:45:26] you see the lights that line you up,
[01:45:28] you see the white lights, you see the control tower,
[01:45:29] you can see your buildings.
[01:45:31] When you're 20 miles from the ship,
[01:45:32] you can't see anything.
[01:45:34] And then when you're 10 miles from the ship,
[01:45:36] you still can't see anything.
[01:45:37] And then you descend down,
[01:45:39] you do this the last bit of this approach.
[01:45:41] At night, is it like 600 feet over the water?
[01:45:46] And it's pitch black, and you're just going towards this.
[01:45:50] And you're 100% instruments.
[01:45:52] 100% instruments.
[01:45:53] And you know, and look, modern airplanes have great instruments.
[01:45:56] They horned as a beautiful instrument,
[01:45:58] an instrument, an instrument, a machine.
[01:46:00] I'm sure, you know, when Yankego's
[01:46:02] talking about back in the Vietnam era is more challenging,
[01:46:04] but you're just flying to instruments.
[01:46:05] More challenging, because homeboys up there
[01:46:07] with a red lens flashlight, try to figure out where he's at.
[01:46:10] You know, I had that story.
[01:46:11] I mean, he's telling us story.
[01:46:12] The yards above the looking for the weight of the ship.
[01:46:16] Crazy.
[01:46:17] You chuckled, because you were asking,
[01:46:18] you're like, I think I know that flashlight.
[01:46:20] I had the same flashlight on how my face is the same.
[01:46:22] Green, Elmo, shape flashlight, we all have.
[01:46:25] I mean, one thing that hasn't changed much in naval aviation,
[01:46:28] it's the gear.
[01:46:29] It's all the same stuff.
[01:46:30] But as you're coming back, you're on instruments.
[01:46:34] You're waiting for your turn for the final approach.
[01:46:37] You know, the last mile of descent,
[01:46:40] where you go from 600 feet, and then you start to descend
[01:46:43] down onto the boat itself.
[01:46:45] And that's when you start picking up the visual cues,
[01:46:48] the meatball they call, and kind of the line up of the runway.
[01:46:51] But a lot of times, you still can't see the ship.
[01:46:55] If there's cloudy or foggy or low or rain or snow
[01:46:58] and all these things, and all these elements are just there.
[01:47:00] And you have no choice.
[01:47:02] You have no alternative.
[01:47:03] And the psychological component of knowing
[01:47:05] that every single time you're going to sort of duel with that,
[01:47:09] it's in some ways, it's kind of terrifying.
[01:47:15] But in other ways, it means that every single,
[01:47:17] there's a challenge in every single flight.
[01:47:21] And I think one of the cool things about being around the ship,
[01:47:24] and one of the things that makes naval aviation unique
[01:47:26] with these guys in the Navy and the Marines that did it,
[01:47:29] is that every single flight, there was this risk,
[01:47:33] there was this fight that you were going to get the duel
[01:47:36] against this machine, this boat, this thing that's out there,
[01:47:39] that sort of geared and designed in every way, shape,
[01:47:43] and form, it's a really bad airport.
[01:47:45] It's not designed to be an airport.
[01:47:48] It's got this time, and the margin of error is miniscule.
[01:47:51] I think in the horn, at the margin of error,
[01:47:53] from coming across, they call it the ramp.
[01:47:55] That's the very first piece of steel
[01:47:56] that you get over the top of the ship to land.
[01:47:59] If you were eight feet off,
[01:48:01] you're either going to miss and go around,
[01:48:03] or if you're eight feet low, you were going to hit the ship.
[01:48:06] So the margin of error is tiny.
[01:48:09] Hold on a second.
[01:48:11] What happens when you're in a 12-foot sea state?
[01:48:15] Yeah.
[01:48:17] Well, when you're in a 12-foot sea state,
[01:48:19] and that thing's moving around,
[01:48:21] the visual indications on the ship,
[01:48:24] the visual thing we call it the meatball,
[01:48:26] which is a light system that reflects where you are.
[01:48:29] So if the light is high,
[01:48:30] there's like a green light that goes back and forth,
[01:48:32] there's a round yellow light in the middle.
[01:48:34] It's round, it's yellow, so they call it the meatball.
[01:48:36] Looks like a circle.
[01:48:38] If that ball is above the green light,
[01:48:39] it's your high, and if that ball is below the green light,
[01:48:42] you're low, and you're kind of flying in around
[01:48:43] to try to move that light, or that yellow ball
[01:48:45] in between the green lights.
[01:48:47] That system keeps up with ship's movement up to some degree.
[01:48:51] I don't remember when exactly what it was,
[01:48:53] the ship will kind of list back and forth,
[01:48:54] it'll raise up and down.
[01:48:56] And as long as it's not moving too fast
[01:48:57] or too much, that light system is accurate.
[01:49:00] Oh, so you're accommodating the movement of the ship,
[01:49:04] absolutely, okay.
[01:49:05] 100% and you're moving your throttle,
[01:49:07] let you know, forward and backwards,
[01:49:09] 10, 15 times every second to accommodate for that.
[01:49:13] And the good thing is that it's good information.
[01:49:16] It's trustworthy, so if the ball is high,
[01:49:18] you're high, the ball is low as you're low.
[01:49:20] If the ball gets too low, it turns red,
[01:49:22] you are dangerously low,
[01:49:24] and that gives you a very good cue.
[01:49:26] If the ship starts moving too fast or too much,
[01:49:29] that system is no longer reliable.
[01:49:32] It doesn't keep up with the movement of the ship fast,
[01:49:34] so you cannot rely on that.
[01:49:35] And then you're landing signals officers,
[01:49:37] you're LSO, so your people that have radio
[01:49:39] on the flight deck, they have to start talking to you.
[01:49:42] And they'll say things like ignore the information
[01:49:45] that you're seeing your low.
[01:49:49] And now you're in this challenge of seeing this visual cue
[01:49:52] that you've relied on hundreds of times.
[01:49:55] And you have someone saying, ignore that information.
[01:49:58] I'm telling you, you need to add power,
[01:50:01] even though that's showing you high.
[01:50:03] And look, those things don't happen all the time.
[01:50:05] How can they give you the micro adjustments fast enough
[01:50:08] in that situation?
[01:50:10] The LSOs and look, one of the cool things,
[01:50:12] or is it like power power power,
[01:50:15] break, break, break, break, break,
[01:50:15] like a left left left left, is you doing that?
[01:50:17] Not, it's quite as fast as you,
[01:50:19] but that is what we were saying.
[01:50:20] So I was in LSO.
[01:50:21] One of the cool things in my career
[01:50:23] when I was on the ship is I got to lead in LSO team.
[01:50:25] So I was a landing signals officer,
[01:50:27] so every fifth day on a cruise,
[01:50:30] I just helped airplanes land.
[01:50:32] I sat out there with a team on radios.
[01:50:34] And usually, usually, if Jocco's coming in in Nizelo,
[01:50:38] I can just say, little power.
[01:50:40] That's all you need.
[01:50:40] Just a little cool smooth call, and you,
[01:50:42] okay, I'm behind and you'll add some power.
[01:50:44] Sometimes I'm like power, and you're like dang.
[01:50:46] And you're hearing, and you're, and that's a little more,
[01:50:48] a little heat, a little, a little,
[01:50:50] a little bigger, a little more of a heater
[01:50:52] than you might normally need.
[01:50:54] There are a few times in every LSO,
[01:50:56] let's listen to this, and every student
[01:50:58] that's out there in play at school,
[01:50:59] probably knows this.
[01:51:00] There are times in my career that I've had to scream,
[01:51:03] power, power, power, power,
[01:51:06] and barely, barely got these airplanes over the ramp.
[01:51:11] To the point that after they landed,
[01:51:12] we'd go investigate and we'd see divots
[01:51:15] on the very edge of the carrier called the rounddown.
[01:51:18] Divots from the hook smashing.
[01:51:20] The edge of the boat, which means that their,
[01:51:22] their wheels may have missed it by no joke, two feet.
[01:51:27] Something like that.
[01:51:28] So what you described doesn't happen very often,
[01:51:31] but it absolutely does happen,
[01:51:32] and then I would tell him, say,
[01:51:34] you're lined up a little left.
[01:51:36] And it was a right for a lineup, right for a lineup,
[01:51:39] and you're talking to them, and the tone of your voice,
[01:51:42] and the rate at which you say it,
[01:51:44] hopefully, solicits the response.
[01:51:46] Now, the interesting thing about that
[01:51:48] is what do you think the mental state is of a pilot
[01:51:52] who's so low and can't assess that on his own
[01:51:56] to respond to your cues?
[01:51:58] You're typically dealing with the guys who are so,
[01:52:00] they were struggling behind the airplane,
[01:52:01] so they didn't always necessarily respond to your calls.
[01:52:04] They didn't attach.
[01:52:06] And it's, that's the challenge of the night carrier landing
[01:52:10] is can you detach from what can be by itself
[01:52:15] under the best circumstances, a terrifying experience?
[01:52:18] Oh, under the best nights.
[01:52:21] And when you have engine problems, fuel leaks,
[01:52:26] hydraulic issues, low on fuel, no diverts,
[01:52:30] two in the morning in a snowstorm,
[01:52:33] you have no choice but to get a board that ship.
[01:52:36] And that is, that is why the carrier landing,
[01:52:39] especially the night landing,
[01:52:40] that is the great equalizer and aviation,
[01:52:43] and here in Yank talk about it and reading about it,
[01:52:46] there's nothing else in the world like it.
[01:52:48] There's nothing of ever done that I can compare that
[01:52:51] experience to.
[01:52:52] And you said you did a hundred night carrier landings?
[01:52:55] Yeah, I'm a sketchiest one.
[01:52:57] Dude, so, I mean, I have landed in what we call 00.
[01:53:02] I have landed where there is zero visibility.
[01:53:05] Zero visibility.
[01:53:06] Yep.
[01:53:06] And what's the other zero?
[01:53:08] So the two measures is the height of the clouds
[01:53:11] and the depth which you can see them.
[01:53:13] So, a hundred and a half would be
[01:53:15] cloudsured, a hundred feet, visibility is a half a mile.
[01:53:18] So, zero zero is the cloudsured, zero feet,
[01:53:21] and your visibility is zero feet.
[01:53:22] So you can kind of picture being in fog.
[01:53:24] It may be on the ground, it may be at zero feet,
[01:53:26] but it's thin fog, you kind of may be see a mile in front of you.
[01:53:28] You know, driving a car.
[01:53:29] And if you've ever been in a car, we're like,
[01:53:31] dang, I can't see, I can't see 10 feet in front of me.
[01:53:34] That's zero zero.
[01:53:35] So you landed in zero zero zero.
[01:53:37] Zero zero.
[01:53:38] So here's how that works.
[01:53:40] And here's how much fun the night zero zero landing is.
[01:53:45] You can fly or engine.
[01:53:46] You can see the meatball, you can't see anything.
[01:53:48] Zero zero.
[01:53:50] You see nothing, get some.
[01:53:51] Yeah, these are good times.
[01:53:54] So you've got your instruments though,
[01:53:55] and your instruments.
[01:53:56] That's what they want to be a fighter pilot
[01:53:58] just during the Air Force bro.
[01:53:59] Yeah, I don't want none of this.
[01:54:01] If you're going to fly fighters in the Navy,
[01:54:03] you need to know what you're getting yourself into.
[01:54:04] Because you're going to have, you're night in the barrel.
[01:54:07] There's not a pilot,
[01:54:08] there's not a naval aviator in the world that hasn't had
[01:54:11] that night, whatever that night is for you.
[01:54:13] You're going to have that night.
[01:54:15] And I bet you're the exact same thing in the teams.
[01:54:17] Like you're going to have an experience.
[01:54:18] You're going to have something that happens to you.
[01:54:20] You cannot avoid it.
[01:54:21] It's going to be your night or your day or your experience.
[01:54:23] You're going to have that.
[01:54:24] There's no getting around.
[01:54:25] And we call it, everybody in naval aviation calls it
[01:54:28] the night in the barrel.
[01:54:29] That's your night.
[01:54:30] And you know, you don't know what's going to happen.
[01:54:31] It's just your night to deal with whatever you got to deal with.
[01:54:34] That zero zero landing, your instruments will get you
[01:54:37] to about maybe a quarter mile at best, maybe a half a mile.
[01:54:42] So by the last eight seconds, once you're inside that last eight
[01:54:46] seconds, your instruments just aren't,
[01:54:48] they don't keep up with what's going on fast enough for you
[01:54:50] to fly off them.
[01:54:51] You have to transition to a visual landing.
[01:54:53] You have to.
[01:54:54] And the only way for that to work when you can't see
[01:54:58] is for you to turn on your taxi light, which
[01:55:01] is this giant, really high powered light in your nose gear.
[01:55:04] And the LSO.
[01:55:05] And this is a call.
[01:55:06] You want to have your stomach drop when you're out in the stack
[01:55:10] with nothing else to do, but think about your landing.
[01:55:12] And you hear all the calls.
[01:55:13] And he says, he says, he says, he comes over the radio.
[01:55:15] 99, which means when you say 99, that's a call for everybody.
[01:55:19] 99, taxi lights on.
[01:55:22] Now, every pilot in the stack is like, oh, God, it's so bad
[01:55:26] that I now know that at the end of this landing,
[01:55:28] I will not be able to see the carrier.
[01:55:30] And the LSO is going to have to talk me down.
[01:55:34] And you talk about trust and relationships
[01:55:39] and putting your life in somebody else's hand.
[01:55:41] You're going to fly this machine, do 140 knots,
[01:55:43] this 35,000 pound machine, to a half a mile from the carrier.
[01:55:50] And you'll never see the ship until you hit it.
[01:55:53] And the guy on the ground is going to talk you
[01:55:56] through the last eight seconds of that.
[01:55:59] And he's only going to do it through his eyeballs.
[01:56:00] Literally through his eyeballs and the faint
[01:56:03] through the fog that faint little glow of the white light
[01:56:05] coming from your nose gear.
[01:56:08] And that is a recalling that as we speak.
[01:56:13] That is a life change in event right there.
[01:56:17] I mean, that's a no joke experience.
[01:56:20] So he's given you the same things.
[01:56:22] He's eyeball.
[01:56:25] He's eyeball-caler.
[01:56:26] Real-trains this guy.
[01:56:28] How does he know to do this?
[01:56:30] Well, the LSO qualification at the Navy is typically reserved
[01:56:35] for the best guys in the squadron.
[01:56:37] Typically, not always, but it's a very highly thought
[01:56:43] of quality.
[01:56:44] It's a well-respected qualification that I'm going to take
[01:56:46] Jaco.
[01:56:47] We're going on cruise.
[01:56:48] You've demonstrated it as a young guy's a nugget.
[01:56:50] You're good around the ship.
[01:56:51] You're reliable.
[01:56:52] I'm going to task you with learning to be an LSO.
[01:56:54] I'm going to put my pilot's life in your hands.
[01:56:57] I would do that as a squadron commander.
[01:56:58] I'm going to send you to school to be an LSO.
[01:57:00] You'll go LSO training.
[01:57:02] And then you'll go through kind of an apprenticeship
[01:57:04] where you sit and watch other LSOs.
[01:57:06] And after about three or four months of that,
[01:57:08] I'm going to give you the radio.
[01:57:09] And on a perfectly clear gorgeous blue day,
[01:57:11] I'm going to let you start to see what it looks like.
[01:57:15] And you're doing it hundreds of times a day,
[01:57:19] every five days, cruise after cruise after cruise.
[01:57:22] And eventually you build this capability through your own
[01:57:24] experience to be able to do that.
[01:57:26] Do they ever have to call in the cooler?
[01:57:29] Like they're like, hey, man, it's 0-0.
[01:57:31] Go get the ice man over there or whatever.
[01:57:34] I can bring him up here.
[01:57:35] Dude, that's no joke.
[01:57:36] We call him the Kag LSO.
[01:57:38] So on the ship, the air group is known as the Kag.
[01:57:41] So the ship is the ship.
[01:57:44] And they've got all their people.
[01:57:45] And then the air wing is all the planes.
[01:57:47] There are two guys that are the two senior landing
[01:57:50] signals officers on the ship.
[01:57:52] 90% of the time, all the new one is training us
[01:57:55] and letting us run the show.
[01:57:56] Well, when it's 0-0, the cooler is the Kag LSO.
[01:58:01] And he's going to be supported or backed up
[01:58:03] by the team lead.
[01:58:04] And so that guy and those nights,
[01:58:06] he's going to be the primary controlling LSO.
[01:58:08] He's going to do it one day in the talking.
[01:58:09] And his backup is going to be the team leader
[01:58:11] of that LSO teams.
[01:58:13] There's five team leads, you know, five teams,
[01:58:14] one for each day, you rotate every five days.
[01:58:17] Those two guys, the Kag LSO, the cooler,
[01:58:20] and the team lead are going to recover every airplane
[01:58:23] on the ship when it's required.
[01:58:25] Are you answering, sir, you're coming in 0-0.
[01:58:28] And I tell you, power, what do you say, Roger?
[01:58:30] No, you don't talk at all.
[01:58:32] You just do what he says.
[01:58:33] And so, and I can tell by watching your aircraft,
[01:58:36] you can also hear it.
[01:58:38] You can, so you're a quarter mile away,
[01:58:39] you're seven, eight seconds from landing.
[01:58:41] When I say power, or when I say power,
[01:58:43] and you add power, your motors are going to change.
[01:58:47] You're going to hear that.
[01:58:48] You're going to hear the tone of that.
[01:58:49] And you're going to, he did it.
[01:58:50] And you can hear the duration.
[01:58:52] And so, if I say power and you add it, and it's not enough,
[01:58:56] I'm going to immediately say it again.
[01:58:57] Before I even watch you settle,
[01:58:58] because I know you didn't do it long enough.
[01:59:00] And I'm going to say power, power, and that means you're
[01:59:02] going to go longer.
[01:59:03] And if you go too long, and I hear you really run the engines,
[01:59:07] I'm going to say easy with it.
[01:59:08] I'm going to ask you, and you're going to bring power off.
[01:59:09] And so, I'm going to talk, I'm going to watch
[01:59:11] or this uniform, for words used by all.
[01:59:14] Every single word in the LSO manual is exactly the same.
[01:59:18] People, we only use one word for power.
[01:59:21] Only one word for take off power.
[01:59:23] One word to turn right, one word to turn left,
[01:59:25] and if they're pretty determined, they all know.
[01:59:27] Everybody else, so I use the exact same thing.
[01:59:28] Did you say easy, buddy?
[01:59:29] What is it?
[01:59:30] Easy with it.
[01:59:31] Easy with it.
[01:59:31] And that's the terminology in the book.
[01:59:34] Easy with it means back off power a little bit.
[01:59:36] That's right.
[01:59:37] If you're going to have someone go right, you say right for line up.
[01:59:40] If you're going to have someone go to the left, you say,
[01:59:42] come left.
[01:59:43] That way, if you said, come left, come right.
[01:59:45] You might get a little, not sure right for line up left,
[01:59:48] you might have a different version of going right, and then there is going left.
[01:59:52] Every pilot in the world, and everybody else knows in the world,
[01:59:54] he's going to go left, come left.
[01:59:56] If you want to go right, right for line up.
[01:59:58] And as I started to hear the, I know he's telling me right for line up,
[02:00:02] because I don't have to really decide for that call.
[02:00:04] And if I hear the E in the easy with it,
[02:00:07] I'm coming off the power a little bit.
[02:00:09] And so there are, you know, the terms are totally predefined.
[02:00:12] Everybody knows what they are, and we rely on those.
[02:00:15] And so the zero zero recovery doesn't happen all that often, but it happens.
[02:00:20] You can't see the ship until you hit it.
[02:00:23] Yeah.
[02:00:23] As zero zero landing, you may get lucky that a half a second before you feel
[02:00:28] the shutter of hitting the flight deck, you might catch something out of the corner.
[02:00:31] Right.
[02:00:32] And meanwhile, at that moment, you go prepared to go full, you actually go full throttle
[02:00:37] when you hit the deck, right?
[02:00:38] You feel your, when you hear your tires hit the flight deck, you go full power.
[02:00:42] Yeah, every time.
[02:00:46] That way, if you miss you're taking off, you're not just falling into the drain.
[02:00:50] That's right.
[02:00:51] That's exactly right.
[02:00:52] If you miss, you go back around.
[02:00:53] Yeah.
[02:00:54] And, you know, that, that LSO piece of flying around the ship is also a skill that it's really
[02:01:01] hard to get people to appreciate how, how good you have to be.
[02:01:06] How much confidence is an LSO you have to be to say, I got this.
[02:01:10] I would 1000 times over, like, prefer to be the guy that's the pilot and not be the guy that's,
[02:01:17] you know, it's one of those horrible situations where you're not actually in danger.
[02:01:22] But you've got someone that's relying on you to get it right.
[02:01:26] Yeah.
[02:01:28] You'd be a good LSO, because you also know the power.
[02:01:32] You've talked about all the time of just how you communicate.
[02:01:36] The LSO is that panic when you're, when I look up and I see your jet in a real
[02:01:40] bad spot, a really bad spot.
[02:01:43] And if I panic in my communication to you, and I doesn't mean I won't be stern and very
[02:01:47] specific, power.
[02:01:49] But if I panic and I have a high pitch, kind of a shrill towel I'm communicating, you're
[02:01:53] going to react that way.
[02:01:54] So, the best LSOs, or the guys that will look at the worst situation in the most dire circumstances
[02:01:59] and the worst weather, where the pilot that he knows has one chance to get aboard, one chance.
[02:02:05] And he has the coolest, calmest, most chill voice in the world.
[02:02:13] Two or two, you're a little low, just a little power.
[02:02:16] You're on a glide slope.
[02:02:17] And that can put a pallet in these to go, oh, holy cow, I can do this.
[02:02:22] I can get aboard now, whereas before he's thinking I can't see the ship, I got this engine
[02:02:25] problem.
[02:02:26] I got all these things and creates a situation as a mind that he knows he can't get
[02:02:28] aboard.
[02:02:29] And LSO can talk him out of that mindset and get him on the flight deck.
[02:02:32] So when Dan was talking about the guy that missed 12 times in a row, and I think it wasn't
[02:02:39] it, Dan that actually went down there and said, let me get on the radio, let me talk
[02:02:42] for this guy on.
[02:02:43] And that's the same thing he says, hey, but we're going to get it done.
[02:02:45] We're going to get done right this time.
[02:02:47] Yep.
[02:02:48] And if it's from the right person or the right time in the right way, it makes all the difference.
[02:02:52] And that was that guy's night in the barrel.
[02:02:54] I mean, that's a lot.
[02:02:56] That's not common.
[02:02:57] The reason you don't get another shot is because you're out of fuel.
[02:03:00] Don't you have a refueler up there?
[02:03:03] Yeah, usually you do.
[02:03:06] There are emergencies that your jet will not take gas.
[02:03:09] You've got emergency.
[02:03:10] You've got a hydraulic problem that even if you had all the fuel in the world, eventually
[02:03:13] your hydraulic fluid will run out and you can't fly the airplane.
[02:03:16] So in most, these are not common cases, but there are cases of this happens.
[02:03:22] What do you do if you are out of hydraulic fuel, you missed your landing?
[02:03:26] What's the protocol to eject now?
[02:03:27] What do you do?
[02:03:28] You're a certain spot.
[02:03:29] You, they spin up.
[02:03:30] They get the helicopter's ready.
[02:03:31] That's exactly right.
[02:03:32] So there's two options.
[02:03:33] You got a barricade option.
[02:03:35] But if it's on a controllable situation, the saying is, you pull alongside the ship and
[02:03:40] eject.
[02:03:41] So what you do is you try to fly a parallel straight across aboard the ship, you know, a
[02:03:45] mile a beam.
[02:03:46] The helicopters out there spinning.
[02:03:47] There's always a helicopter flying when you're coming aboard, at least during the
[02:03:51] day.
[02:03:52] And I've never, I've never been under cruise where we had to intentionally do that.
[02:03:56] I've been on cruise as we started briefing that option as an LSO.
[02:04:00] Like, okay, here's what we're going to do.
[02:04:02] This is what our planning to be.
[02:04:03] You're starting to coordinate with the ships and emergency recovery team on this is what
[02:04:06] we're going to do if indeed we don't, you know, get this guy aboard for whatever reason.
[02:04:13] Life of the ship is no joke.
[02:04:14] And the Navy makes it look easy because they're doing it hundreds of times a day, every
[02:04:19] single day, and 99 times out of 100, 999 out of a thousand, these dire situations, they
[02:04:25] pull it off.
[02:04:26] And the only ones we ever hear about are the ones that it really, but these type of things
[02:04:30] happen all the time.
[02:04:33] These dangerous situations are happening right now.
[02:04:35] There's someone in the, someone in the barrel once a day on the, on a carrier deployment,
[02:04:42] once a week.
[02:04:43] Yeah.
[02:04:44] Once a day is, no, I'd say more often than not, certainly when weather is good.
[02:04:48] I mean, it's smooth.
[02:04:49] I mean, you're putting 120 aboard and, you know, launching recovery in a day and most days
[02:04:55] just go by.
[02:04:56] But if you've got, you know, if you did the math that we've got, multiple carriers, deployed
[02:05:00] to see it all the time, and you're doing multiple flight ups all the time, once a week out
[02:05:04] there somewhere in the blue ocean, there's a kid up there who's struggling.
[02:05:10] It might not be 12, you know, but he's struggling and he's having a hard time and you're
[02:05:14] watching him have a hard time and you're trying to talk him down.
[02:05:17] Did you ever have a hard time?
[02:05:20] Did you ever get shook to the point where you came back and like had a decompress and
[02:05:24] said, you know what?
[02:05:27] This, I had a, I had a buddy in the, in the teams and he did, he did a, he's doing some,
[02:05:35] we'll just say maritime operations off the coast of Korea for an exercise.
[02:05:43] And it was just freezing cold and claustrophobic in the whole nine yards and he was
[02:05:48] telling me, you know, he's in this evolution and he's thinking of himself.
[02:05:54] I don't even know if I actually ever want to do this again.
[02:05:58] You don't even know if you think about that.
[02:06:00] So, like, we're not kid and, you know, the kid that Dan talks about that does 12, 12 tries
[02:06:05] to make it in the next day.
[02:06:06] They put him right back up there and he did fine.
[02:06:09] Did you ever get shook as they say in modern terminology?
[02:06:15] I struggled in the beginning before I would go launch.
[02:06:21] I had a real problem in the very beginning when I got assigned to a carrier squadron and
[02:06:26] I kind of had to come to grips with this is going to move my day to day life.
[02:06:32] I think I might even mention it to, I think I mentioned the name Gunny Pilgrim being just
[02:06:35] this awesome gunnery sergeant that taught me everything as a lieutenant.
[02:06:40] He and I were pretty tight and I'd say for the first, probably the first month of my
[02:06:45] carrier career where I'm doing sustained cyclic carrier operations.
[02:06:49] If I was, I would walk up on the flight deck, I would pre-flight my jet and I'd throw
[02:06:55] up over the side of the ship, just from nerves and anxiety and just like man, just being
[02:06:59] stressed.
[02:07:00] I would just be physically ill and I didn't tell anybody about it and he knew and so
[02:07:06] if he ever managed to find this guy, he'll tell those stories.
[02:07:09] It was just something I just had to learn to deal with.
[02:07:13] You man up, I don't mean the phrase man up.
[02:07:16] We call getting it on airplane manning up, you climb up the ladder to man up your jet,
[02:07:20] we manned up the jets and you'd go and you'd come back and then at the end you'd look back
[02:07:24] and that was awesome.
[02:07:26] Then we'd just have to go to the again, you'd get nauseous and that subsided.
[02:07:30] I did have a couple of landings and he described really well, I had a couple of landings
[02:07:33] that were so kind of terrifying that I couldn't control my legs, so my legs would shake
[02:07:39] so fast and so your feet would, from the adrenaline that it'd be hard to steer the airplane
[02:07:45] and a couple of times I had to stop the airplane and the flight deck grew kind of
[02:07:48] understances.
[02:07:49] When you just stop the kind of look at you and you just, you kind of give me a second.
[02:07:53] So I had several times.
[02:07:54] This is after you hooked onto the hook.
[02:07:56] You come to a stop, you kind of turn off and that adrenaline wash kind of goes out
[02:08:01] so maybe about a minute after that your whole body will convulse.
[02:08:05] You steer everything with your legs, you're putting a lot of pressure on your feet
[02:08:08] and your toes and you maneuver the airplane with your feet and your legs are shaking so hard
[02:08:12] that you literally can't steer and you're margined for like they take it to the side
[02:08:17] of the ship like three feet away from the edge of the ship.
[02:08:19] So you're looking over the water and you're just kind of, so I've had several landings
[02:08:22] or after I landed, I needed to stop for a second and just like, hey dude, just give me a second.
[02:08:26] I would just stop the airplane and usually they would look at you and go, take catch your breath.
[02:08:33] I never got out of the airplane and said I don't want to do that anymore.
[02:08:37] And I had some pretty rough nights and I think there was just this piece of this idea
[02:08:42] that it's like, you wouldn't send something a long time ago that I just laughed at
[02:08:52] and I'm like, that's not me. And you said I like the taste of blood.
[02:08:57] You like, and I kind of took it like, you like fighting.
[02:09:00] I don't mean it like you like to fight other people but that feeling that you get you
[02:09:05] like that feeling.
[02:09:06] Well, I told him, I don't like the taste of blood.
[02:09:11] Flying a fighter around the ship with all the things that made me think about not wanting
[02:09:17] to do it.
[02:09:19] All the danger, all the immerne's is all I loved it.
[02:09:23] I freaking loved every second of it, even the things that I hated and there were things
[02:09:28] I hated about it.
[02:09:30] I loved it and I loved doing it.
[02:09:33] And I hated it at the same time but not once that I ever say I don't want to keep doing
[02:09:40] that.
[02:09:41] How am I as a crew and on later on, but being around the ship, being on the ship, doing
[02:09:44] ship things as much as I hated it.
[02:09:46] My squadron was telling me they did not like flying around the ship. I hated it.
[02:09:49] But man, I freaking loved it.
[02:09:51] So that was kind of my personal experience.
[02:09:54] Everybody's different.
[02:09:55] I never really quite normalized to it.
[02:09:57] I always just felt like man this sucks.
[02:09:59] But there was something about it that never got old and never got tired for me.
[02:10:04] And I loved doing it.
[02:10:07] Yeah, and it's weird because that idea of I like to taste a blood.
[02:10:15] It's one of those things where when I haven't tasted blood, no I don't, I don't notice
[02:10:21] I'm not sitting or thinking about it.
[02:10:23] And then all of a sudden something will happen.
[02:10:26] Something will happen.
[02:10:28] It could be, any number of things.
[02:10:31] It could be something as simple, not usually.
[02:10:34] Did you do to me isn't this type of thing?
[02:10:37] Maybe occasionally it'll be something will happen on the mats.
[02:10:40] But normally that's not it.
[02:10:42] I just enjoyed you just too much, but something will happen.
[02:10:45] Some situation will unfold.
[02:10:48] And I'll go into like war mode.
[02:10:52] And when I go to war mode, I just feel so good.
[02:10:55] And when I get there, I'm like, oh yeah.
[02:10:59] It makes me, you know, sometimes I, when I get there, it makes me just look around and
[02:11:08] I just think I wasn't really supposed to be doing anything else.
[02:11:15] You know, it wasn't really supposed to be doing anything else.
[02:11:20] I was supposed to be doing that, that thing because it makes me feel so, so good to, to be
[02:11:29] in that mode, to feel that focus, to have like for me.
[02:11:35] And this is just so weird for me because you know, I like to, you know, where we're building
[02:11:41] relationships, we're building teams, we're working together.
[02:11:46] For me, when I have an opponent, not just an opponent, it has to be stronger than that.
[02:11:52] When I have somebody or some entity, that is antagonistic to me and my family, that's
[02:12:05] me, my friends, my team.
[02:12:09] I feel something that is the best feeling to me.
[02:12:15] And it, and it doesn't happen that much anymore.
[02:12:17] I mean, it just doesn't.
[02:12:18] I mean, that's just the way it is.
[02:12:20] But like even, you know, even when I was a cartoon commander and something would happen,
[02:12:26] some, some other, you know, whether it was, whether it was the enemy, whether it was some
[02:12:32] part of some organization, you know, some person that had something, did something that
[02:12:37] was, I don't, I want to throw this word out there because it just, it just sets off a whole
[02:12:42] bunch of, you know, what could it be?
[02:12:44] But, you know, if there's a betrayal scenario where someone betrays me and they want
[02:12:53] to go to war with me, that delivers me.
[02:12:59] You know, that's when I, I love the taste of blood and I, and I can feel it.
[02:13:05] And you know, like I said, it's, it's, you know, it's an old man talking now and just
[02:13:12] don't get those situations very often.
[02:13:16] But it's good, it's good feeling.
[02:13:21] Yeah, happens from time to time.
[02:13:23] Well, it's, it's uniler tool been, at least for this game, at this point.
[02:13:29] But if I were to look back, and I spent a lot of my life dreaming of being a fighter pilot,
[02:13:33] a lot of my life was spent dreaming about doing the things that I got to do.
[02:13:40] If you were to ask me at any point during my time at sea, flying what I was doing, that
[02:13:47] I could have done anything anywhere for any amount of money, there's not one single thing
[02:13:55] in the world I would have done.
[02:13:57] On my worst night, on my scariest, whatever, not one other thing.
[02:14:02] And when you said what you said that, that I think described that feeling is, this is what
[02:14:07] I'm supposed to be doing.
[02:14:08] And every night, the thing that you were fighting, you know, in some sense was yourself,
[02:14:13] but it was that environment that is sort of designed to kill you.
[02:14:18] It's dark.
[02:14:20] It's pitch black at night and it's a steel unforgiving ship with a tiny little area
[02:14:27] that's 42 feet wide and a hundred and everything about that on paper is designed to kill
[02:14:34] you.
[02:14:35] And the only way you're going to outmaneuver that is what you and your machine
[02:14:39] do and there was a piece of that fight, which I think is what it was, is that the satisfaction
[02:14:48] of doing that on the best days of the worst days is really hard to recreate and replicate
[02:14:54] and feel in other ways.
[02:14:55] That satisfaction of I did something I was supposed to be doing and if I didn't do a well
[02:15:00] enough, it was going to get me hurt or killed or the people around me hurt or killed.
[02:15:04] And I haven't experienced a lot of other things like that.
[02:15:08] It's rare to be in a work environment where you get that so regularly.
[02:15:15] That's every single landing.
[02:15:17] If you take your eye off the ball, no pun intended, on the most clear, perfect blue sky
[02:15:22] day, you'll kill yourself.
[02:15:27] You'll get yourself killed and you probably hurt a lot of people along the way.
[02:15:31] And there was a challenge there that I never got tired of, which was for me doing what you
[02:15:37] described, this is what I'm supposed to be doing.
[02:15:41] Can you imagine the screening process that it's the de facto screening process that we
[02:15:47] can launch?
[02:15:48] I mean, how many guys are landing on a carrier today, right?
[02:15:52] And that happens all the time.
[02:15:54] And this screening process and the training process is so good that these guys can pull
[02:15:58] this off over and over again around the world and every see state day, night, clouds, no
[02:16:03] clouds fog, no fog.
[02:16:05] That's what?
[02:16:06] That's what we do.
[02:16:08] I mean, I want to get a look at it.
[02:16:10] It's crazy.
[02:16:11] Yeah.
[02:16:12] It's crazy.
[02:16:13] I mean, it ships doing well over 100 a day, every single day.
[02:16:19] And yeah, dude, what the Navy is doing, it's unreal, man.
[02:16:24] It's awesome.
[02:16:25] So with that, does that then, is this where, okay, look, the inside the Navy, inside the
[02:16:34] Navy, where you cannot surrender because you cannot give up the ship because otherwise
[02:16:39] you all die inside the Navy.
[02:16:42] You have this, this of all the people that are in the Navy, of all the people that are in
[02:16:46] the Marine Corps, a little bit different, because it's just a different subset, right?
[02:16:52] But the subset of Marine Corps aviators, fighter jet pilots, the Navy, it's more prevalent
[02:16:59] in the Navy.
[02:17:00] Let's face it.
[02:17:01] Delta between a surface warfare officer in the Navy and a Navy fighter pilot.
[02:17:10] That Delta is bigger than the Delta between a Marine Corps infantry officer and a Marine
[02:17:18] Corps fighter pilot.
[02:17:20] Unless we want to go back to World War II, then you want to see some just insane, incredible,
[02:17:30] that they're, I mean, the danger of being on a Navy ship in World War II was totally insane
[02:17:34] as well.
[02:17:35] So the Delta, the screening process, where you get to, is you end up with a certain type of
[02:17:42] person.
[02:17:43] So in the Navy, when you are going to go for the SEAL teams, there's a certain element that's
[02:17:49] there.
[02:17:50] And for lack of a better word, and I think I'm using it because Dan talked about it,
[02:17:56] there's a rebellious nature, right?
[02:17:59] There's someone that's going, hey, look, I don't care.
[02:18:02] Look, you don't fall in tier to go land on that freaking postage stamp if you hold
[02:18:08] life to be the most precious thing.
[02:18:11] There's something else there, right?
[02:18:13] There's something, you don't do that.
[02:18:14] You just don't do that.
[02:18:16] And that's what I like about this top gun mentality.
[02:18:21] And I'll call the top gun mentality.
[02:18:23] I'll call it the idea that I talked about earlier, this extreme ownership mentality
[02:18:31] of like, hey, I'm going to go and make this happen.
[02:18:35] And when it goes wrong, I'm going to figure it out and I'm going to fix it.
[02:18:40] There's a certain breed of human that tend in that direction.
[02:18:47] And you can, because otherwise, I mean, let's face it.
[02:18:51] You talking about landing on a carrier at night, there is a massive swath of human beings
[02:18:59] that there's no way in hell they ever want to do what you just talked about.
[02:19:06] Echo, what is your, are you fired up to go do a carrier landing right now?
[02:19:11] No, not at this time.
[02:19:12] Thank you.
[02:19:13] Not at zero zero zero.
[02:19:14] What about nighttime?
[02:19:15] What about?
[02:19:16] No, what about?
[02:19:17] What about day after day after night after night after night after night after night?
[02:19:21] Right.
[02:19:22] So we're talking about a different, you know, a different kind of human with a different mentality.
[02:19:28] And what we've done is set up this process that finds those humans that gets them to that
[02:19:37] point where they do that for 25 years, for 25 years, that's how we're doing this.
[02:19:47] That's pretty impressive.
[02:19:49] Yeah.
[02:19:50] So I got, I had a couple more things I want to ask.
[02:19:56] Flexible for, is that what it's called?
[02:19:57] The flexible for, what's the fluid for?
[02:19:59] The fluid for.
[02:20:00] Yeah, that's what I mean.
[02:20:01] What we're in a formation, we work together.
[02:20:04] It sounded like there's a lot more regimented than it was fluid.
[02:20:07] Yeah.
[02:20:08] Fluid for is not a fluid formation.
[02:20:09] Does anyone use it anymore?
[02:20:11] Yeah, we use it to kind of navigate to and from the space other than that it's not
[02:20:15] to have.
[02:20:16] It's not a tactical thing at all.
[02:20:17] You do it just to keep people close together.
[02:20:19] So you say, hey, we're going to go from point to point B and I don't want to mess around
[02:20:21] just kind of get close to moving to fluid for out there.
[02:20:25] I sent you a text.
[02:20:27] I said, loose doos.
[02:20:30] I said, loose doos.
[02:20:31] It equals.
[02:20:34] Cover and move.
[02:20:35] Plus decentralized command over and you're like Roger makes sense.
[02:20:39] Yeah, that's exactly right.
[02:20:40] Yeah, because it'll lose goose formation or sorry, loose doos formation.
[02:20:47] You do one of us can take lead.
[02:20:51] We can take lead and we can make things happen on our own and yet we have to cover for each
[02:20:57] other.
[02:20:58] Yeah, if we don't work together, we're going to die.
[02:20:59] That's right.
[02:21:00] That's exactly right.
[02:21:01] I can direct you to do something that I need you to do and when you don't comply,
[02:21:07] I know that it's because you can't.
[02:21:09] And so there's this relationship piece.
[02:21:11] There's all those components that you just talked about are inside there and that's how
[02:21:15] you're going to work together to eventually isolate the bad guy and one of us is going
[02:21:19] to kill him and I don't really care who does it as long as one of us does it.
[02:21:22] And if that means I got to stay engaged the whole time that you get the kill, it's good
[02:21:25] by me because we're good and we move on.
[02:21:31] These guys figured that out, right?
[02:21:32] These guys figured that these guys said the other way doesn't work.
[02:21:37] This way works better.
[02:21:38] This is again, you have to have some element of rebel mentality in your brain in order
[02:21:44] to say, you know what?
[02:21:46] It's the same thing with a jujitsu, right?
[02:21:50] Someone's got to say, listen, I don't really believe that if you do this cotta to me,
[02:21:56] that it's going to work, somebody's got to say that.
[02:21:59] In the teams, the biggest, this happened to us in the teams.
[02:22:05] We were using, we'd use real ammunition, we chewed at paper targets and you went every
[02:22:08] single time and you go through the house and every target is dead and they didn't
[02:22:14] maneuver you, they didn't fire on you and they don't maneuver.
[02:22:17] So it becomes so easy.
[02:22:18] When we brought in laser tag, we brought in paintball and simunition and these things that
[02:22:23] allowed us to fight each other, even then somebody had to have the mentality.
[02:22:29] Number one to say, you know what?
[02:22:30] First of all, we should try these tactics on each other because we've been being told
[02:22:32] over and over again.
[02:22:33] I got told that from my first 10 years in the teams, eight years in the teams.
[02:22:37] Hey, this is what works.
[02:22:38] You know what you say?
[02:22:39] Roger that.
[02:22:40] Roger that.
[02:22:41] To say, you know what?
[02:22:43] We need to check this.
[02:22:44] We need to test it.
[02:22:45] You know what?
[02:22:46] There was people that when paintball, when paintball revealed the shortfalls of our tactics,
[02:22:54] there was people that said, yeah, but, yeah, but, you know, it's only paint.
[02:22:58] So it's, oh, yeah, but it's not a real weapon.
[02:22:59] Yeah, but there's a different in the penetration.
[02:23:02] There's all kinds of yell butts.
[02:23:04] The rebels said, yeah, you're saying, yeah, but guess what?
[02:23:10] It's just pointed a paintball gun down the hallway and, you know, 13 out of 16 of us got hit
[02:23:17] with paintball.
[02:23:19] That doesn't seem good.
[02:23:21] And there was people that were saying, yeah, but, yeah, but it's not an AK 47.
[02:23:27] A-K 47 only holds 30 rounds of paintball gun.
[02:23:29] It has a hopper with 100 rounds.
[02:23:31] That's not realistic.
[02:23:32] Okay, what if they had a freaking, I told them, any kind of machine gun?
[02:23:37] So you have to employ this rebel mentality.
[02:23:43] And that's why you get, you know, that's where you get these crazy top gun stories.
[02:23:45] That's why they're stealing a trailer to set up shop.
[02:23:48] But the seal teams has tracet's whole history back to that kind of rebel behavior.
[02:23:53] There is a, and that's what shocked me.
[02:23:56] And it shocked me, but that's what was so amazing.
[02:23:58] When Dan was like, hey, he's the OIC and he says, we are going to be the most professional
[02:24:05] humans that these pilots have ever talked to.
[02:24:08] We're going to brief these things.
[02:24:09] We're going to murder board each other.
[02:24:10] We're going to be in the perfect uniform.
[02:24:13] They're talking about uniforms.
[02:24:15] This attitude of we're going to be rebellious.
[02:24:18] We're going to, we're going to make sure things work.
[02:24:20] And at the same time, we're going to be, we're going to be above board across the board
[02:24:26] and everything else.
[02:24:27] So that when we step out and say, hey, this is wrong, people will actually listen.
[02:24:32] That is a rare thing.
[02:24:34] It's a rare thing to know that you have to hold the line, toe the line, be above board
[02:24:42] across the board.
[02:24:43] And then at the same time know that when something's not quite right, you've got to
[02:24:47] be a rebel at heart.
[02:24:50] Top gun mentality.
[02:24:52] Yeah, man.
[02:24:53] It's solid.
[02:24:58] And, and have that legacy persist and to be able to cultivate it in a way that
[02:25:04] has evolved and changed a whole bunch.
[02:25:07] We're not dealing with the same problems that the original bros are dealing with
[02:25:11] back in the late 60s.
[02:25:13] We're not losing in the end.
[02:25:14] We're not dealing, but we actually have to do the same thing.
[02:25:17] And what that mentality now is fighting against the complacency that comes with the things
[02:25:23] that we've been able to do so well for so long.
[02:25:27] And happy will say, hey, listen, I know this has worked for a long time.
[02:25:30] And I know this has been the best way to do it.
[02:25:32] And it's not going to keep working like this because the people we're fighting against
[02:25:36] are going to figure this out.
[02:25:37] They're going to build a new machine.
[02:25:38] They're going to build some countermeasure.
[02:25:40] They're going to do something that keeps us from working.
[02:25:42] And we act to have to be everybody's creative and that tell the entire institution what
[02:25:47] we're doing won't work anymore.
[02:25:49] And figure it away to get the institution.
[02:25:51] This giant behemoth institution to listen to you.
[02:25:56] None of that happens ever unless you as a leader, as a team member, stay humble.
[02:26:08] If you don't stay humble, I can't even imagine.
[02:26:11] Like I know what you're going into this seal training.
[02:26:15] And it's the boasting, training, and you.
[02:26:17] The video, the recruiting video that I watched, the title of the video was be someone special.
[02:26:25] That's the title of the video to try and get you to go in there.
[02:26:29] So you're getting told your special whole time.
[02:26:31] Top Guns got to be 10 times worse.
[02:26:34] On top of that, you add the freaking, you know, Maverick and Viper and Ice Man.
[02:26:38] I mean, we're talking, you're just, this is an ego booster rocket.
[02:26:44] And to have that ego booster rocket.
[02:26:48] And yet, you know, throw out the sea anchor to keep you grounded, to keep you down to earth,
[02:26:55] to keep you humble.
[02:26:57] That is the last part of this top gun mentality.
[02:27:02] That's allowed us, you know, allowed the allies of America are air forces around the world
[02:27:14] to be the best and continue to be the best.
[02:27:16] And you have to have all those elements.
[02:27:19] And what's awesome is if you have these elements, these elements do not only apply
[02:27:24] to fight or fly an aircraft, they apply to being in a seal but to being in an infantry company,
[02:27:30] they apply to being on the GJ2 mats, they apply to every, to be in a part of a family,
[02:27:37] part of a team, part of anything.
[02:27:40] These aspects will make you win in the end.
[02:27:50] Two and a half hours.
[02:27:51] Dave, did I miss anything?
[02:27:54] No, man, that was awesome.
[02:27:56] There's probably a bunch of other things that you could get me talking about.
[02:28:02] The mentality that you talked about at the end, I think, for me is the most important thing.
[02:28:06] For sure.
[02:28:07] And that's to finish with that and to have that be the thing that persists in the legacy
[02:28:11] of top gun and have nothing to do with Hollywood or any of those things, but the legacy
[02:28:17] of people who took that burden of responsibility of I'm responsible for people's lives
[02:28:23] who are going to go out and lead junior pilots out into combat and turn that into something
[02:28:27] that becomes in organization that's lasted for decades.
[02:28:33] I mean, what Yank was able to do in the face of more organization resistors than I've
[02:28:38] ever faced.
[02:28:39] I didn't face a big Navy or big Marine Corps telling me no all the time.
[02:28:44] I didn't grow up in that Marine Corps.
[02:28:47] And I said this last time, but to be a small link in that long chain, I had a harder
[02:28:52] time reading this book personally because it was so easy to connect.
[02:28:58] I was so inside, I read this book and understood so much of it that a hard time seeing
[02:29:03] it.
[02:29:04] You actually even talked about a little bit of, hey, what?
[02:29:06] Like I was missing components of that because I was on the inside, talking about it
[02:29:09] with him last week and then coming back here again on today has helped me detach even more
[02:29:14] to see even what I did at top gun awhile I was there that didn't understand quite that
[02:29:21] level because I was inside of it.
[02:29:24] And the story is incredible, but it's the persistence of that mentality that is how you
[02:29:30] win everywhere connected back to the attribute that has been my biggest challenge and by
[02:29:37] far the thing that has mattered the most in my life, which is humility, to learn it
[02:29:41] in a place at Top Gun where people are telling you that you're the best of the best.
[02:29:47] That is the phrase against them all the time.
[02:29:48] The best of the best, there's a difference between humility and showmanship, there's
[02:29:54] plenty of showmanship up there, you used to talk about the current regretter all the time,
[02:29:59] but there is so much humility inside that organization because of the burden and the responsibility
[02:30:05] they feel that it's cool to come from a circle from the beginning of this conversation
[02:30:09] was I learned more about humility at Top Gun than anywhere else because it was the thing
[02:30:13] that I was required the most for me to actually be successful there.
[02:30:17] And Yank and the original bros, they deserve a lot of credit for creating that.
[02:30:25] No doubt, and it's also amazing that when you trace back the history of the seal teams
[02:30:30] and the way they were formed and the way they learned and the attitude, it's the same traits,
[02:30:36] it's the same traits that we talk about all the time, this is what it takes to win.
[02:30:43] With that, echo trolls.
[02:30:46] Yes.
[02:30:48] Do you have any suggestions on how we can employ the Top Gun mentality in our own lives?
[02:30:56] Yeah, sure, but first I have a question for good deal date.
[02:31:01] So back to the, because it's kind of come back to the Dodd-finding situation of scenario
[02:31:06] one, maybe to scenario one, the one where, you're going way back.
[02:31:11] Yeah, because let's face it.
[02:31:13] That wasn't as cut and dry straight forward as far as understanding it goes.
[02:31:18] It was just hard to track.
[02:31:19] Yeah, a little bit, right?
[02:31:21] So, okay, so you're trying to close the distance as the, the guy on the offender.
[02:31:28] No, defense is okay, yeah.
[02:31:30] Okay, yeah.
[02:31:31] You got it, I try it.
[02:31:32] So yeah, because it's confusing because usually like in Juditzer fighting, the offender wants
[02:31:38] to go, if you're just in fighting, you want to close the distance.
[02:31:41] Yes.
[02:31:42] Yes.
[02:31:43] So that outside green zone is not available in the scenario, but it is still available
[02:31:46] in the whole kind of scope of fighting.
[02:31:50] Okay, you said that you don't do like a, like a, like a joker or like a faint or anything
[02:31:58] like that, you know, go one way and then break right or whatever.
[02:32:02] Is there any version of a faint in dog fighting at all?
[02:32:07] Well, one to be, you do a break and then you do a ditch.
[02:32:12] And then you do another break and then you do another ditch?
[02:32:14] No, I would not equate, I, I did not explain it well enough to have it in your, in your mind,
[02:32:21] see it clearly enough, but the break and the ditch are too exclusive things.
[02:32:27] And the simplest way to answer that is, is no.
[02:32:33] Because if you're fighting against opponent and opponent who recognizes that that's
[02:32:36] a faint, what a faint would do if you move to one direction to set up a movement in another
[02:32:41] direction is that you're giving him the separation that he wants to attack you.
[02:32:47] And part of what might be confusing about this is that, you know, we started with this
[02:32:51] one against one, which is a very canned set up that we're starting in a mile or whatever
[02:32:55] that might be, you know, that that six thousand feet.
[02:32:58] It has an account for all the things that have gotten to that point, but that mile is actually
[02:33:04] the optimal separation for an attacker to get.
[02:33:08] So if you were in whatever the optimal position between you and somebody else in Gigi,
[02:33:12] for you to be successful as the person in the offensive advantage, that's a mile.
[02:33:17] So if you can kind of equate, if you were to just show me exactly how you'd want to
[02:33:20] position yourself against someone else, you know, you're taking his back, you've kind
[02:33:25] of started to set up the rear naked or whatever that might be, whatever that separation
[02:33:29] is, that's not the same separation as if someone in the mouth pulled you and kind of
[02:33:34] grabbed you and pulled you close him so you couldn't strike them.
[02:33:38] So that start of you being behind him is that start of that position and if I kind
[02:33:44] of fainted or kind of hinted at I was going to move in one direction to stop the choke
[02:33:49] and I opened up my neck to do it.
[02:33:51] The guy you're fighting is going to laugh at that faint because all you did was open up
[02:33:56] your neck and he's good enough and fast enough to take advantage of that, that what you're
[02:34:00] doing is giving him more positional advantage and you already have.
[02:34:03] Yeah, totally understand now because I think it's natural when we're not fighter pilots
[02:34:09] to think, oh yeah, the defender, right, the guy who's in front or whatever, we think
[02:34:16] of that is like, why doesn't he just get away, right?
[02:34:21] Or why doesn't he, you know, why don't you just do a move here and fake them out and get
[02:34:24] away, but it's not that.
[02:34:26] It's like the offender, the offensive guys, just kind of trying to keep you at a certain
[02:34:31] range, right?
[02:34:32] Like that's essentially his goal.
[02:34:35] It's not to follow you everywhere, you know, like a high speed car chase or something.
[02:34:40] It's like to keep you in that range the whole time.
[02:34:42] So if you compare to the jujitsu, right, you know how like we have situational training,
[02:34:45] which is essentially what it is, right, situational training.
[02:34:49] So if you start on my back, jaco, I'm the defender, it's essentially the same thing.
[02:34:57] I'm the defender.
[02:34:58] And you hold me, I hold you tight.
[02:35:03] Like I'm holding your hands instead of like I got one hand here, one hand here, I'm holding
[02:35:07] you tight, you can't like maneuver it all.
[02:35:09] I'm so tight, everything is just so tight.
[02:35:12] You want to get me in a range that essentially you can choke me, right?
[02:35:18] So or actually a better one is side control, you know?
[02:35:21] I think I have it.
[02:35:23] I think I have it.
[02:35:24] I think I figured out what's going on here.
[02:35:27] You've heard me say in jujitsu that if I'm going to fake a move, if I'm going to faint
[02:35:33] to move, I actually have to faint the move enough that you have to react to it.
[02:35:41] Right?
[02:35:42] I can't just fake the sweep and expect you to react because if you, if I fake the sweep
[02:35:51] and you know it's a fake sweep, you just pass my guard or you take advantage of my
[02:35:57] fake or you don't fall for it at all.
[02:35:59] I think because of the, because of the reaction of an aircraft, if you're going to fake
[02:36:06] enough that I'm going to actually have to fall for your fake, for you to recover back
[02:36:14] is you can't do it quickly enough and I am going to be able to take advantage of it.
[02:36:20] So you can't, it's not possible to throw a fake that's committed.
[02:36:27] Like when you commit, the hands down, the best thing you can do is commit to that move
[02:36:34] and that is the hardest thing for me to track is that an accurate assessment.
[02:36:38] Yes.
[02:36:39] And that took me so long to figure out.
[02:36:42] It took me this entire conversation to figure out that.
[02:36:45] Yes.
[02:36:46] So like in jujitsu, they're not really been faint.
[02:36:49] They're essentially just chaining moves together.
[02:36:51] I'm going to do this movement when he reacts to this move that I'm doing, not a fake one,
[02:36:54] a real one when he reacts and I can do it.
[02:36:56] Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[02:36:57] And let's face it.
[02:36:59] If you do a real move in jujitsu and the person doesn't react to it, you just get the
[02:37:05] move.
[02:37:06] So that's what they're saying here is you're doing the move.
[02:37:09] And if the person doesn't react to it, cool, you win.
[02:37:13] If they do react to it, you go to the next move in the chain, just like you would in
[02:37:17] jujitsu.
[02:37:18] Yeah, exactly.
[02:37:20] So you've ever been, again, someone where you get side-mount on them and they hold you
[02:37:26] really, really tight.
[02:37:28] Like, just new guys, I think, do it out of panic.
[02:37:31] But if you get a strategic guy, like some of the graces will do this, where they'll hold you.
[02:37:35] Because if you're too tight, you can't do any submission.
[02:37:37] You need a little bit of space.
[02:37:40] So it's essentially that, right?
[02:37:42] Where the defender, he's holding you tight.
[02:37:44] That's what he wants.
[02:37:45] He wants a hold you tight.
[02:37:46] You don't start off tight.
[02:37:47] That's how he can kind of defeat your attacks.
[02:37:50] Because you're out of range of attack, right?
[02:37:52] So I think it's just a misconception where outsiders, people who are not pilots or whatever,
[02:37:57] they look at top gun and they're like, yeah, you just shoot the guy, that's how you win.
[02:38:01] You know, kind of thing.
[02:38:02] But it's to know you got to keep them in that range.
[02:38:04] And then, yeah, if you can find the correct jujitsu scenario, that's similar, then it becomes
[02:38:11] easier to understand.
[02:38:12] Because I wasn't understanding at all.
[02:38:13] It's like, fraud.
[02:38:14] That doesn't even, like, why doesn't this guy do it?
[02:38:17] But then, yeah, after a while, I think I got it.
[02:38:20] I think I'm ready.
[02:38:21] Let's go up the top gun.
[02:38:22] Ready for top gun.
[02:38:23] Yeah.
[02:38:24] Thanks.
[02:38:25] Cheers.
[02:38:26] Speaking of top gun, we do want to be capable.
[02:38:32] As capable as we can, we don't all have 2030 vision, which one is the good vision?
[02:38:38] 2030 or 30, 20, 25.
[02:38:41] Yeah.
[02:38:42] 25, that's the dope one.
[02:38:43] So when you sign with the number, super humans.
[02:38:45] Yeah.
[02:38:48] Second number is the low number.
[02:38:51] So 2020 means at 20 feet.
[02:38:51] The object appears like it's 20 feet away.
[02:38:53] That's normal.
[02:38:55] 2030 means at 20 feet.
[02:38:56] The object appears like it's 30 feet away.
[02:38:58] It's fighter pilots.
[02:38:59] Some fighter pilots out there, they got 2010 vision.
[02:39:01] They see it as if they're 10 feet close.
[02:39:03] So that's how good their eyes are.
[02:39:05] My daughter, allegedly, allegedly, they brought other, you know, when she was doing
[02:39:11] the eye, listen, my oldest daughter, they do the eye test.
[02:39:14] The doctor was or whatever the practitioner of was her.
[02:39:17] Hey, everyone come in here and look at this because she was just, it's not only
[02:39:22] s, really good.
[02:39:25] She said 25.
[02:39:29] That seems unrealistic to me.
[02:39:31] But she also kind of gave like a 25 and then she was like 25, 20, 10.
[02:39:35] So maybe it's just 2010.
[02:39:38] But yeah, it's pretty, my dad also had really insane vision.
[02:39:44] Mine was always just, you know, solid.
[02:39:48] So good.
[02:39:49] What did you, was yours?
[02:39:51] So I was better than 2020.
[02:39:52] Yeah.
[02:39:53] So like I was, I would read the 2015 line kind of no factor and I was picking off like
[02:39:58] a couple off the 2010, which is not, not common.
[02:40:03] I mean, not a lot of, I was lucky enough to have a gift of really good vision.
[02:40:08] Yeah.
[02:40:09] I mean, just a met, how stoked were you when you're like, they're like, oh yeah, you're
[02:40:14] like your vision because you want to be a fighter pilot.
[02:40:15] Oh, by the way, this is one of the most important factors.
[02:40:17] Oh, by the way, you happen to have just naturally one in a hundred thousand humans have
[02:40:22] this kind of vision.
[02:40:24] Can you like not become a fighter pilot if your vision is like a, you know, used to be like
[02:40:29] that.
[02:40:30] I guess I'm not there to be like, juck her and go get LASIC and like, as long as he passed,
[02:40:33] physically is good.
[02:40:34] And there's, there's technology and science out there that improves your vision.
[02:40:38] You don't have to be born with it anymore.
[02:40:40] You notice that on the master video, the one that got, the, muster that got canceled
[02:40:44] or land or land to rain.
[02:40:46] You know, they got canceled in the video.
[02:40:48] Put little attributes to each of the team members in yours was the ice test.
[02:40:52] It was real quick.
[02:40:53] Oh, I can notice.
[02:40:54] That's why I saw that.
[02:40:57] You did, you did.
[02:40:59] Pick it off.
[02:40:59] Check that out.
[02:41:00] You can't line.
[02:41:01] Anyway, capability, right?
[02:41:03] All right, you want to be capable.
[02:41:04] You want to stay capable.
[02:41:05] Jockle, few will help you do that.
[02:41:08] Actually, here's the thing.
[02:41:10] All right, look, do you have a perfect diet?
[02:41:13] Do you have a perfect, perfect diet?
[02:41:14] No, I do not.
[02:41:15] I don't know, I'm a perfect diet either.
[02:41:18] So, Jockle, few will food, drink, supplementation.
[02:41:24] Boom.
[02:41:25] All in one.
[02:41:27] So, what do we got?
[02:41:28] Join warfare.
[02:41:29] Super cruel oil for you joins.
[02:41:30] One they go out and they go out.
[02:41:32] And they go out.
[02:41:33] I was like, oh, he's trapped.
[02:41:34] I don't know.
[02:41:35] I don't even think of Echo knows where he's going.
[02:41:37] But then you just maneuvered right out.
[02:41:39] Oh, that was like, you did a little deck transition.
[02:41:42] You're a little bright out and I was pretty impressed.
[02:41:44] Like, what is that a hard break?
[02:41:46] Dictionary.
[02:41:47] Dictionary transition was awesome.
[02:41:49] That's what I'm having right there, right?
[02:41:51] There you go.
[02:41:52] Nonetheless, I'm just trying to explain what we got here.
[02:41:55] What we're taking, what I'm taking, anyway.
[02:41:58] Look, there's just a bit straight up.
[02:41:59] What do you take every day?
[02:42:01] Super cruel oil.
[02:42:02] I ran out of joint warfare.
[02:42:03] Just text, I know.
[02:42:05] I've been working for 20, 20 and that's my excuse.
[02:42:09] But nonetheless, I got a response.
[02:42:12] So that means that.
[02:42:14] So is he fatt-exing?
[02:42:15] I don't go over those details.
[02:42:18] OK.
[02:42:19] So this is a good guy.
[02:42:20] The good thing is we will now get another.
[02:42:25] What is that scientific assessment?
[02:42:28] When you go off joint warfare and you start getting aches and pains,
[02:42:34] which is what happens.
[02:42:35] Yeah.
[02:42:36] So I'm going to take joint warfare.
[02:42:38] Super cruel oil.
[02:42:38] That's the combo.
[02:42:39] That's the combo.
[02:42:40] That's the combo.
[02:42:41] It's anti-oxidant combo right there.
[02:42:43] What do you take?
[02:42:43] I take three joint warfare in the morning, three joint warfare at night, three super
[02:42:46] curl in the morning, three super cruel at night, every day.
[02:42:49] Yeah, I think basically I have to do that, but not night and day.
[02:42:53] Oh, you just do it one.
[02:42:54] One hit, three and three.
[02:42:55] Easy money.
[02:42:56] Discipline, every single day.
[02:42:58] Put it this way.
[02:42:59] Every day that I work out, deep lane, all day.
[02:43:03] It's like an electoral light kind of thing.
[02:43:06] You should take this pre-workout with caffeine.
[02:43:08] Don't even take it anymore.
[02:43:09] Discipline.
[02:43:10] So the powder like discipline.
[02:43:12] Yes, sir.
[02:43:13] What flavor?
[02:43:14] Which are all of them.
[02:43:17] All interchangeable to me because I can't.
[02:43:18] It's a gift you still love that you have.
[02:43:20] You're a good guy.
[02:43:21] Well, you're a good guy.
[02:43:22] You're a good guy.
[02:43:23] You're a good guy.
[02:43:24] So with Christ.
[02:43:25] Christy's is ridiculous.
[02:43:27] Traffic Thunder is my go-to with the cans.
[02:43:31] 100% of the Andre cans every day.
[02:43:33] But the discipline powder, 100%.
[02:43:35] Every day that I work out, which is five, sometimes 60s a week.
[02:43:39] Yes, so that's the everyday thing to milk, not every day.
[02:43:42] Oh, really?
[02:43:43] That goes, comes in waves.
[02:43:45] Because you know, sometimes you just, I just don't
[02:43:48] do about the milk and the coconut milk.
[02:43:49] Milk, right?
[02:43:50] Yes, sir.
[02:43:51] That's a big difference.
[02:43:52] Because look, I can't pound a freaking half gallon of milk or whatever.
[02:43:57] I can't pound a big giant, what is it? 20 ounces of milk on an empty stomach.
[02:44:03] It's not optimal.
[02:44:04] It's not optimal.
[02:44:05] It's the way you feel.
[02:44:06] Right.
[02:44:07] You're familiar with this.
[02:44:08] I understand, but you can hammer that coconut milk and it tastes
[02:44:13] your freaking delicious.
[02:44:15] Yeah.
[02:44:16] Delicious.
[02:44:17] Arguably better than regular milk, taste-wise, coconut milk with, we could be there.
[02:44:22] We could be there.
[02:44:23] I know that's our days looking at me like I'm crazy.
[02:44:25] I'm telling you we could be there.
[02:44:26] If you haven't gone, have you gone down the coconut milk, wrote it?
[02:44:29] No, but I'm not a milk guy.
[02:44:31] We do almond milk.
[02:44:32] Okay.
[02:44:33] So you're speaking my language.
[02:44:35] To drink like 20 ounces of milk or I actually sounds like a would be a problem for me.
[02:44:40] I have a drink of regular milk and a long time.
[02:44:42] I do like a night carry your land.
[02:44:45] The bigger issues, barrel on the, what do you mean you don't take it every day?
[02:44:49] What, milk?
[02:44:50] Yeah.
[02:44:51] Yeah.
[02:44:52] It goes in waves.
[02:44:53] Like for, you know, week two weeks or whatever.
[02:44:54] Like if you're, what do you do when you get done with dinner?
[02:44:57] And it was a really good dinner and then you're like, oh yeah, but I want dessert.
[02:45:00] Yeah, but I don't deserve what makes you strong.
[02:45:03] Well, you know, when I'm thinking that, milk train all day.
[02:45:07] But the thing is that feeling comes in waves.
[02:45:10] You see what I mean?
[02:45:11] Anyway, the almond, Dave Dather not relating at all.
[02:45:17] The almond milk, coconut milk, regular milk.
[02:45:20] I like regular, regular milk.
[02:45:22] Straight up, like like it.
[02:45:23] It's like the stomach full stop, whatever.
[02:45:26] I had coconut milk in like, you know, a brand of smoothie before and I was surprised.
[02:45:31] It was surprisingly good.
[02:45:32] Oh, it's good.
[02:45:33] For coming from a dairy milk, kind of milk lover.
[02:45:38] That's something cool.
[02:45:39] All right, so we got that.
[02:45:41] We got Warrior Kid Moal because well, we got Jocquay T.
[02:45:44] We got the cans of Displungal, which I've been partaking into quite a few many today.
[02:45:50] So getting a little crazy with that and part of that reason is just because it freaking
[02:45:54] tastes delicious.
[02:45:56] All these things are available at the vitamin shop.
[02:46:00] So if the vitamin shop's open around you, you can find some of this stuff.
[02:46:05] If not, you can go to originmainme.com.
[02:46:10] You can order it up and we will send it to you.
[02:46:12] Stat.
[02:46:13] Yep, very reliable.
[02:46:14] Cool.
[02:46:15] Stat.
[02:46:16] So the crew is up there.
[02:46:17] Just get an after it.
[02:46:18] Yes.
[02:46:19] All right.
[02:46:20] It's done.
[02:46:21] Also, origin, they also make G's for GJ2 because we are doing GJ2.
[02:46:26] Hey, slow, we got to get back into GJ2.
[02:46:28] Half-do.
[02:46:29] At some point, we have to.
[02:46:30] And I dig it if we're exercising restraint.
[02:46:34] Being a little hesitant, you know, given the current, I dig it.
[02:46:37] But some of us, man, it's kind of-
[02:46:40] Got a corn and train.
[02:46:41] Train with your corn team.
[02:46:43] Yes, sir.
[02:46:44] With your corn team.
[02:46:45] Yes, right.
[02:46:46] And some people getting back into it quicker than others.
[02:46:48] So if you don't have a G, you want to know what the best G is.
[02:46:50] factually.
[02:46:51] Origin, G, pull, made America 100%.
[02:46:54] Also, aside from GJ2, not forgetting about GJ2, but aside from GJ2, we got in addition
[02:47:01] to GJ2.
[02:47:02] Yes.
[02:47:03] Correct.
[02:47:04] In addition to GJ2 G's that are made in America, we have other things.
[02:47:07] Yes, sir.
[02:47:08] That is true.
[02:47:09] Phanam, American denim.
[02:47:11] In the form of genes.
[02:47:12] Yep.
[02:47:13] We all wear genes.
[02:47:15] We all have a quarantine or not.
[02:47:19] We can wear our genes.
[02:47:20] And we can represent, made in America 100%.
[02:47:24] By the way, no big deal, but you can also help rebuild manufacturing in the United States of America.
[02:47:26] Maybe that's important to you.
[02:47:27] I know it's important to me.
[02:47:30] So you might want to get on that train as well.
[02:47:32] Get yourself some origin boots.
[02:47:33] 100%.
[02:47:34] Yeah.
[02:47:35] Boots have it as you mentioned last time.
[02:47:41] I was a bit too into housing boots.
[02:47:43] Yes, I do.
[02:47:44] That's a matter of fact.
[02:47:45] I do.
[02:47:46] I don't think I've seen you wearing them.
[02:47:47] Have I?
[02:47:48] Oh, no.
[02:47:49] No, I haven't seen you wearing them.
[02:47:50] I tend to reserve my boot wearing scenarios pretty conservatively.
[02:47:55] You know, so yeah.
[02:47:57] You know, I don't wear them.
[02:47:58] Basically, this is your way of saying we need to make origin slippers or hands.
[02:48:04] And some form of sneakers.
[02:48:09] sneakers, tennis shoes, running shoes, whatever, depending on what part of the world you're
[02:48:12] from.
[02:48:13] sneakers and in Hawaii shoes shoes.
[02:48:17] You know what, I don't know if we were ever familiar with that product, shoes or whatever.
[02:48:23] I don't know.
[02:48:24] Yeah, what I'm still the main land.
[02:48:25] It was like yeah, shoes sneakers.
[02:48:27] We wear slippers, aka flip flops.
[02:48:29] Yeah.
[02:48:30] Or go bare feet.
[02:48:31] 100%.
[02:48:32] What do we call in sandals?
[02:48:35] Yeah.
[02:48:36] I call them flip flops.
[02:48:39] Yes.
[02:48:41] To me, sandals means has a strap over the top as a different situation.
[02:48:45] Maybe this is like a guy that lives in Miami that's taking his, you know, his young
[02:48:52] girlfriend and he's like 52 years old and he's taken her out to like an Italian restaurant.
[02:48:57] That guy's wearing sandals, right?
[02:48:59] I'm wearing flip flops.
[02:49:01] Well, right.
[02:49:02] Did I catch maybe is there an origin flip flops scenario brewing here?
[02:49:07] I would not be mad at that scenario.
[02:49:10] Let me put it to you this way.
[02:49:12] I don't want to wear things that aren't made in America at all.
[02:49:18] So yes, and as like you, I wear flip flops pretty much every day.
[02:49:23] So are there some brewing?
[02:49:25] The answer is in the affirmative.
[02:49:28] Jacob.
[02:49:29] Well, I think sandals when this is just how it feels.
[02:49:32] So I don't know technically flip flops sandals.
[02:49:35] If you're referring to flip flops or the ones that you're referring to my homeboy in
[02:49:39] Miami, yeah, well, that's a terrific girlfriend.
[02:49:41] Well, the thing goes between your, your big toe and your second toe.
[02:49:45] You know, they phone songs sometimes.
[02:49:47] Oh, if it goes a term for it.
[02:49:49] If it has that, then yeah, sandals don't they just cover your foot.
[02:49:52] They don't between your toe.
[02:49:53] I don't know.
[02:49:54] That seems like the technique or is it all this stuff and more available at origin
[02:49:59] main.com get some.
[02:50:00] Yes, very true.
[02:50:01] Also, what do we got?
[02:50:03] I think we have a store.
[02:50:05] Yes.
[02:50:06] It's called Jocco Store.
[02:50:07] So you want to continue to represent on the path is where you can get your dysvyn equals
[02:50:13] freedom.
[02:50:14] Good shirts.
[02:50:16] More rash guards.
[02:50:18] Dave Burke.
[02:50:19] Who it is, hats, beanies.
[02:50:22] You know, all this kind of stuff.
[02:50:23] Um, a pair of, we got some posters on there too.
[02:50:25] Oh, yeah.
[02:50:26] Where are you kids stuff as well?
[02:50:27] That's always good.
[02:50:29] Yeah.
[02:50:30] So yeah, JoccoStore.com.
[02:50:31] Go there, you know, get something.
[02:50:33] Represent.
[02:50:34] Well, you're on this path that we're all on.
[02:50:39] Also, you can support this podcast by subscribing to it.
[02:50:44] Subscribe to this podcast.
[02:50:46] And then this podcast called JoccoPonCast.
[02:50:49] We also have another podcast that I'm changing the name of and we'll get it back out there.
[02:50:53] And I'm, we're, we're discussing the, how we're going to actually play that game.
[02:50:57] Or how we're going to do it.
[02:50:59] But so there was a podcast called the thread.
[02:51:02] It will be back under a new name.
[02:51:04] I didn't, I didn't even Google the name when I just named my own new podcast, right?
[02:51:11] This is zero research.
[02:51:12] This is a good name.
[02:51:13] I like it and do it.
[02:51:15] So sometimes I'm a little bit too default.
[02:51:18] A group of rows.
[02:51:19] So I've got to watch out for that.
[02:51:20] Got the grounded podcast where we talk about life through the lens of Jocco or your kid podcast
[02:51:26] for your children and also pretty good for parents to listen to.
[02:51:30] And also get some more of your kids soap available yet.
[02:51:33] Yes.
[02:51:34] Oh, it's available on JoccoStore.com order yourself some killer soap made by young
[02:51:39] Aiden.
[02:51:40] So that you as a human being can stay clean.
[02:51:45] Also not to mention Jocco soap and trooper soap.
[02:51:49] Oh.
[02:51:50] Yeah.
[02:51:51] So the, you know, so sometimes I'm not saying this is what it's for because it's not what it's for.
[02:51:57] But sometimes soap is sort of sitting out.
[02:52:00] It's just sitting out on display.
[02:52:02] We'll call it.
[02:52:03] So we're on the street is the trooper soap in particular gets many, many compliments
[02:52:08] with the aroma.
[02:52:10] Interesting.
[02:52:11] So it smells good is what I'm saying.
[02:52:12] Interesting.
[02:52:13] Yeah.
[02:52:14] I personally like that killer soap.
[02:52:16] Yeah, I like that killer soap.
[02:52:17] But I guess the trooper soap if you want to, you know, let's say it's at night
[02:52:21] time your final shower.
[02:52:23] Are you going to go go sleep with your wife or something like this?
[02:52:26] Maybe use the trooper soap.
[02:52:27] So what I'm saying?
[02:52:28] Interesting.
[02:52:29] Anyway, yes, I really don't have a spoken ranch.com also.
[02:52:33] Joccostore.com boom soap available gets also.
[02:52:37] We have YouTube channel.
[02:52:38] If you're interested in the video version of this podcast, you're going to watch it
[02:52:42] instead of just listen.
[02:52:43] By the way, I posted a video the other day of me making some food with Josh Hall
[02:52:49] and Tory and somebody wrote like the no explosions.
[02:52:55] So I think we kind of owe it to the world.
[02:52:59] Some of the explosions and some, you know, some jocco cooking videos.
[02:53:04] I'm the worst cook.
[02:53:07] Well, you know, some guys are into it.
[02:53:09] You know, it's kind of like a thing like I'm going to grill up.
[02:53:12] Lave babon all the way.
[02:53:14] Lave babon's all about that grill and what do you do with what do you do with it
[02:53:17] before you cook it.
[02:53:18] You leave it in the fridge and some sauce for the night.
[02:53:20] What's that?
[02:53:21] Oh, it's very nice.
[02:53:22] Yep, Mary's Mary's Mary's Mary's.
[02:53:23] I can't get out of the fridge.
[02:53:25] I can't get out of the fridge.
[02:53:26] I can't get out of the fridge.
[02:53:27] Mary's all fired up for that.
[02:53:29] You know what I'll do with food?
[02:53:31] Eat it.
[02:53:32] You know, you can tell if someone's really into cooking.
[02:53:35] When they put salt on it, they don't just put salt like this.
[02:53:39] Or like I see, you know, you put seasoning.
[02:53:41] You know, before it goes in the oven, wherever it goes,
[02:53:43] you know, you just put salt put seasoning.
[02:53:45] This is how you can tell.
[02:53:46] They grab the salt.
[02:53:47] They grab the salt with their fingers and they sprinkle it like in a circle.
[02:53:51] You know, like they have a technique to sprinkle in.
[02:53:54] You see what I'm saying?
[02:53:55] People not into cooking.
[02:53:56] They don't do that kind of stuff.
[02:53:57] What about the guy that the salt bay?
[02:53:59] Oh, advanced.
[02:54:00] Oh, it bears the deal.
[02:54:01] Salt administrator.
[02:54:02] I went to his restaurant.
[02:54:04] Yeah.
[02:54:05] And I have had him actually put salt on my steak.
[02:54:08] Cut it for me.
[02:54:09] Yep.
[02:54:10] Any did he?
[02:54:11] Any did it that way?
[02:54:12] I did.
[02:54:13] He was advanced.
[02:54:14] Name drop.
[02:54:15] You know, I was sitting there eating steak with a couple of friends.
[02:54:19] Including Handsau Gracie.
[02:54:22] We're kicking it.
[02:54:23] Oh, yes.
[02:54:24] That was that's a solid.
[02:54:25] You're so awesome.
[02:54:26] Yes.
[02:54:27] Such an awesome guy.
[02:54:28] Yes.
[02:54:29] So there you go.
[02:54:30] Name drop.
[02:54:31] Yeah.
[02:54:31] Anyway, so the point is, yeah, we have a YouTube channel.
[02:54:33] So yeah, check that out.
[02:54:34] If you're, if, you know, watch the podcast straight up.
[02:54:37] Also psychological warfare.
[02:54:38] You need a little spot.
[02:54:40] That's what it is.
[02:54:41] A spot.
[02:54:42] If you're hitting moments of weakness,
[02:54:44] specifically in the workouts that I mean, if I'm speaking from myself right now.
[02:54:48] You can eat a little spot.
[02:54:49] You want to get past that feeling of a little feel like doing this whatever.
[02:54:53] Boom.
[02:54:54] Psychological warfare will spot you a little bit.
[02:54:58] Folks, I can't just dot com to code a Meyer making prints for you to hang up in your house.
[02:55:03] That will keep you on the path.
[02:55:04] We got a bunch of books.
[02:55:05] We got top gun by Dan Patterson.
[02:55:08] You can get that on joccompancast dot com the books.
[02:55:13] Some people will late getting that up there.
[02:55:16] No big deal.
[02:55:17] You know, whatever.
[02:55:18] Better late than never.
[02:55:19] Yeah, it's an unsatheal.
[02:55:20] You can get that there.
[02:55:21] You can also get the latest book called The Code, the evaluation of protocols.
[02:55:27] Dave Burke.
[02:55:28] Get some good feedback on that book.
[02:55:30] Big time.
[02:55:31] The group.
[02:55:34] The group.
[02:55:35] Chupers are in the game on this book, which is awesome.
[02:55:38] Humbling book.
[02:55:39] Humbling and repetitively humbling.
[02:55:43] It's one of those books where it's kind of like what you were saying about landing on a carrier and being on a carrier and having that life where you're like,
[02:55:53] This is hard.
[02:55:55] Yeah, but I love it.
[02:55:58] That's the code the evaluation.
[02:56:00] Put yourself in check.
[02:56:01] And it's like a reminder.
[02:56:03] It is a reminder because like a lot of this stuff is like, yeah, like you could have a one day.
[02:56:09] You could have a zero day, right?
[02:56:11] But if you forget about the code, it won't even really move you either way.
[02:56:14] But if you're on the pat, you know, if you're if you are reminded that, hey, you're going by this code, you throw up a zero by that hurts, you know?
[02:56:22] But if you're not reminded, it doesn't hurt.
[02:56:24] It's just saying.
[02:56:25] Yeah, remind yourself.
[02:56:27] So get the code.
[02:56:28] You can get leadership strategy and tack is field manual.
[02:56:31] You can get way the warrior kid one two and three.
[02:56:34] You can get Mikey in the dragon.
[02:56:35] You can get this plenty goes freedom field manual.
[02:56:37] You can get extreme ownership dichotomy leadership.
[02:56:39] So the thing is, there's a bit of a question.
[02:56:42] I've been writing books over here.
[02:56:43] Get some information.
[02:56:45] In ya check those books out, Ashlan front is our leadership consultancy, where we solve problems through leadership.
[02:56:49] You may think, well, how are you doing that?
[02:56:51] No one's traveling, cause a COVID-19.
[02:56:54] Well, we are we are doing it all day long.
[02:56:57] We're actually stepping up.
[02:56:59] We're doing a lot of it.
[02:57:00] We're doing it all virtual now.
[02:57:02] And what we found is that you can have proof of your life,
[02:57:08] You can have me come and talk to your
[02:57:12] You can have me come and talk to your team of a thousand people in a big in a big auditorium and
[02:57:19] Most of those people
[02:57:21] What they're watching is the screen next to me on stage that's projecting my face. That's what they're actually watching
[02:57:29] And then they don't have any interaction. They can't ask any questions because there's too many people there or during a zoom call
[02:57:36] I'm
[02:57:38] Right there Dave's right there, Dave's right there. Whoever whoever from the echelon front team is right there
[02:57:46] Talking directly to you to your team. So it's turned out awesome
[02:57:52] You know the interaction that we can have the connection the discussions
[02:57:58] That's what we're doing at echelon front now. It's been a great transition
[02:58:02] I'm sure we'll do we will end up doing
[02:58:05] Live face to face
[02:58:08] Consulting again, but right now
[02:58:11] It's no factor we're pushing right through it
[02:58:13] How many zoom calls do you think you're doing it there right now?
[02:58:18] Dude I'm doing a lot of zoom calls yeah, and the whole time in my head I was thinking what it was it's no factor
[02:58:24] It's no factor. Yeah, it's been awesome. Yeah, it's it's in many ways
[02:58:30] It's better. Yeah, it's better to be able to have
[02:58:33] Dave talk to your 12 person team
[02:58:40] twice a week and
[02:58:42] That cost Dave an hour
[02:58:44] But he spent where he cost him two hours, you know in a week
[02:58:47] Whereas if he had a fly up to your location and
[02:58:50] Spend two hours up there that cost him whatever two days it cost him two days
[02:58:56] And your people can't you know hate him up in that conversation and say hey, what do you think?
[02:59:01] Let me let me hit you in email. It's it's truly developing relationships that waiting think was was possible
[02:59:08] So go to echelon front dot com for details on that and then in that
[02:59:12] We also stepped up our game with EF online EF online dot com
[02:59:16] This is the other thing we're doing we are communicating all the time
[02:59:20] We're having live meetings we're doing them basically five times a week if you want to sit if you want to ask me a question
[02:59:26] If you want to ask me a question if you want to sit there on a computer look at me and ask me a question
[02:59:33] Go to efo mind dot com and come to one of our live meetings you will get to ask me a question
[02:59:38] We'll have a full conversation. It's it's epic
[02:59:43] Not to mention we've got all kinds of material on there to for you to to learn
[02:59:47] Leadership to train your tactics. It's all in there and it's only growing. It's grown really fast
[02:59:52] We've we're we're pouring everything we got into efo mind to check that out. We also have the monster coming up
[02:59:59] We have Dallas, Texas December 3rd and 4th
[03:00:03] We have Arizona
[03:00:06] Phoenix Arizona September 16th and 17th so if you want to come to those
[03:00:11] better register quick
[03:00:14] Extreme ownership dot com. We've sold out all of our gigs we've ever done
[03:00:17] We'll sell these out to so if you want to come go register and efo overwatch and efo
[03:00:24] Legion
[03:00:27] Look we work with companies all the time all
[03:00:30] Companies need leaders at every level from front line leaders to senior leaders
[03:00:35] If you need a senior level level leader go to efo overwatch if you need a front line leader
[03:00:40] Go to efo region if you were in the military in any capacity
[03:00:44] Go to efo region dot com and go and register so we can get you
[03:00:50] Connected with companies that are looking for front line leaders and
[03:00:55] Find the Americas mighty warriors dot org
[03:00:59] That is mom. Lee that is Mark Lee's mom and
[03:01:03] That is her charity which she set up after Mark was killed
[03:01:08] She decided to pick up the fight
[03:01:10] She decided to carry on and she's out there helping service members helping their families helping gold star families around the world
[03:01:20] To give you an example of what she's doing there's medical treatments that sometimes aren't covered by insurance
[03:01:27] America America's mighty warriors is covering that kind of thing for our vets. She's doing it all the time
[03:01:33] That's
[03:01:35] One of the many things that she's out there doing so if you want to support go to that website and
[03:01:39] You can either donate or you can get personally involved
[03:01:44] And if you want to hear any more of my despotic sermons
[03:01:49] Are you want to hear any more of echo Charles's
[03:01:54] Proposetuous myths or you haven't had enough of Dave's over in doggian anecdotes
[03:02:02] Then you can find us all of us all around the inner webs. We're on Twitter Instagram and Facebook
[03:02:08] Dave is at David our Burke echo is at echo Charles and I am at jocca willing and
[03:02:13] Thanks to all of the military personnel out there look they all make this machine work when that carrier
[03:02:21] When that fighter pilot's going to land on that carrier
[03:02:23] There is 5,000 people that are making that possible on that ship
[03:02:29] There's 5,000 people working
[03:02:34] coordinating making it happen
[03:02:36] They're all over the place
[03:02:39] So thanks to all of you that are out there. Thanks to our police law enforcement firefighters paramedics
[03:02:44] EMTs dispatchers correctional officers border patrol secret service and everyone that defends our way of life right here at home also
[03:02:53] Thanks to all the doctors and nurses and medical personnel who care for us when our way of life is threatened
[03:03:00] And
[03:03:02] And everyone else out there just remember to keep that top gun mindset put your ego in check
[03:03:11] Throw in a little bit of rebellion
[03:03:15] Push yourself to learn set up competition that forces you to get better
[03:03:24] And then get out there and
[03:03:27] Get after it
[03:03:29] Until next time this is Dave Burke and echo when jocco out