Jocko Podcast 221: Jonny Kim. Navy SEAL, Doctor, Astronaut. The Unimaginable Path.

2020-03-18T10:33:55Z

Join the conversation on Twitter/Instagram: @jockowillink @echocharles @jonnykimusa 0:00:00 - Opening.  The Letter 0:07:22 - Jonny Kim. Combat Medic. 3:44:39 - NASA. 4:09:17 - Final thoughts and take-aways. 4:19:56 - How to stay on THE PATH. JOCKO STORE Apparel: https://www.jockostore.com/collections/men Jocko Supplements: https://originmaine.com/origin-labs/ Origin Jeans and Clothes: https://originmaine.com/durable-goods/ Origin Gis: https://originmaine.com/bjj-mma-fit/ 4:38:31 - Closing Gratitude

AI summary of episode

hey you know intersection I think it was two nine three two nine three which would have like double digit cigarettes a day and we're realizing hey what's probably go a different way or go through this alleyway and reviewing the satellite imagery to see and understanding and trying to go through do like a dirt dive which is just space was just planning the route in your head and seeing what kind of obstacles you might see or landmarks because GPS wasn't super reliable at the time especially since we had jammers you'll want on 24 seven so that people couldn't remotely detonate ideas we'd try and jam all all frequencies so a lot of times you didn't have GPS so you need to know the route cold and then as a point man being able to take to dismount safely and then guide your platoon to the target on foot and that also takes careful route planning careful route study and making sure you get the right target because I mean you can have pretty bad consequences when you hit the right hit the wrong target and of course your shooter just like everyone everyone's a shooter from the lowest and listed to the OIC is a shooter is responsible for their lanes for engaging the enemy for a turning fire for being a shooter and once you're on target if this is happens to be an overwatch we'd set up the night before and set up sniper overwatch positions so that we had good observations of different angles different lanes that the enemy might try and use to attack us or worse attack our brethren our army and marine corps brothers and sisters who might be doing a route clearance or might be doing a patrol and that's just like one flavor of the many different types of missions that we did you know we talked about DA direct action missions those were a little more direct you know you probably just drive up this and require as much I guess you know trying to be as seraptitious it's kind of going in loud you're not feeling anyone you're going loud aggressive hard and I didn't I wasn't always good at it you know because sometimes you're fed up like mustering a 0 500 when the muster is really like 0 700 like why am I here for 2 hours because you know maybe the squallie to put 15 minutes of grace time before like the company commander before the fake you know like rotsy leader or whatever and then eventually works out there you're like 2 hours before you're there standing there 2 hours of attention before you need to be there you know like little things like that and for some especially I saw some former enlisted having a really hard time keeping their thoughts to themselves team guys are even worse so my program the seaming animal program did not take into consideration the program where you stay in listed and there wasn't because it wasn't a good route it just wasn't considered because the time of the instruction was written that in listed program wasn't written and I wanted to apply to that on the program but was being told by my my you know my superiors at the rots unit that I couldn't do it because of the instruction and that's I'm for I am not I am not a believer in circumventing the chain of command and in this case I let my who's a lieutenant like proctor let him know like I'd like to see if I can pursue this avenue and a parallel path and trying to get approval for this and the response I got was a good luck and that's when I reached out to you and told you the situation and you asked a specific officer who I still actually keep in touch with because I remember he did not know who I was but the very fact that we were both from the same brotherhood from teams that he went out of his way and he was working I think in buepers or some personnel command that had access to these types to the people that can make these types of decisions and he was able to secure or at least share this story what I was going through to the right people and once those right people heard the situation is like well that's easy of course it just wasn't it wasn't considered because it's a clerical thing not because it's not like shouldn't be allowed so once the right people heard the story that I I think I could have done better at what point did you decide maybe going into space would be a good idea so we talked about accidents and we call whatever we want I have no plan I had no plan to do any of these things I we talked about I had no plan to be a doctor it's just something that came out of deployment of a body of seeing the compassion and the good that physicians and nurses were doing to our brothers and sisters who were wounded in combat and I wanted to be able to do that type of good as well and that's why I directed to medicine space was never on the horizon we talked a little bit about where I came from that scared little boy and grew up under my father shadow I never thought I could have been a seal or a doctor or an astronaut there's no way it was a different life and I was a different person and the first time I heard about NASA and this opportunity I don't I don't have a great story for it it's just I heard about being national and it's like that's kind of interesting when we're like other than space exploration like what you do and learning about the impact that national arts can have on our next generation and what Apollo did for our country I mean in the 60s we were able to land a human on the moon with that technology despite a growing race with Russia and all the politics going on during that era Kennedy's assassination we were able to complete that and that secured American preeminence in science technology for decades to come I certainly believe that and the benefits we got from that are you can't count that and learning a little bit more about that and how astronauts have had the opportunity to represent humanity for good and bring together countries in a way that politics and alliances cannot do when you talk to some of the Apollo astronauts who landed on the moon and they did their international travel the comment the feedback they would get from people would be we did it but some of the hardest years of my life because it was different I couldn't grind through it by just hitting harder with the way this is going from university San Diego to Harvard or just going from the team so you're just going okay at transition it was some of the hardest years of my life because it's not like you could just push through like you can in some of the things you do in the bloods or in teams and the bloods is a challenge but as you and I know training is nothing compared to war but you think training is hard you think how weak is hard it's hard right until you get hit in the face in a real combat operation and then you realize oh I've reset my benchmark for what is hard or what is painful or what is suffering and even having that benchmark going into transitioning to civilian life it was hard for me I was trying to fit in four year degree in three years trying to do really well because I knew I had a good grades to be considered for a school like Harvard I had my first child I was working part time but probably the worst of it was I was not right in the head with my decompression with post war I took a lot of that anger and hatred my heart and I still had it there and you know I had you know no power but the people that people that you know and the relationship that you build over time is like hey guys here's what's going on and the guys that are in powerful positions or in the right position and the right spot with the right poll can make things happen and and they do it for the right reasons why like just like you said it wasn't because it wasn't the right thing was absolutely the right thing to do it's like he's not getting you know rassed by the troops people aren't making fun of him for this that or the other thing that's when you that's when you know a guy's a real problem is when he's actually so far outside that's spectrum that they go you know what we don't even we don't even want to we don't even want to do that with this guy because he's not one of us and we don't want him as part of the team wise words I've always heard that I believe it if if you weren't getting rattle if you weren't being made fun of then people didn't like you and that's just the coach I think it's hard for people outside of that community to understand why we were so hard in each other and why it was born out of love it really is it's a a lot of those actions and you just the way we conducted ourselves and I mean some of the people closest friends we were just you know just dog on each other all the time to this day but you know so many emotions when you show up your petoni like a lot of guys I was just so hungry to be accepted to be a good job like look I can put out I'm gonna ask it like I want to be here because I want to be here and getting welcome like that was I I wanted that and it's a different world I feel like I was fortunate enough to see two sides of the Navy because that is certainly not at all condoning that behavior but it is what it is it is what it was and I've kind of at the cost where I got to see that side of the teams and I'm sure it's still those on but it's changed a little bit right yep you're learning it's kind of like SKT you're learning the basics of what it's like to be an effective astronaut but that training never goes away like just like being a seal you don't stop shooting just because you made it through SKT it's just the beginning of your of your learning of your professional development and you're maintaining all of that so you continue all of those activities maintain speaking your Russian practicing in the space you'd flying in a jet you know weekly and then supporting on going mission so if you're not assigned which I am not assigned I mean there's a pool of astronaut that are always supporting on going missions because that's a priority is supporting on going missions and right now we have astronauts that have man the international space station for 20 years continuously there are people adult where we have been orbiting in man presence in the space station one of the people have been alive and we are looking to go back to the moon in 2024 with our eyes set for deeper exploration two Mars in beyond it was we did it and that was powerful that countries could come together and see that as a human accomplishment so there's something about space that takes away those borders because when you're up there you don't see these distinct borders between countries you just see a lot of blue and a lot of land and you see how fragile the planet is so once I learned a little bit about that type of impact and that you can have a huge impact on the next generation of explorers of scientists of people who want to be a better version of themselves maybe I could reach out to those kids just like me who are scared tired who don't think they can amount to anything who don't think they're worth anything if I could reach out to them and let them know that hey doesn't matter where you're from with the right attitude with the right hard work if you get up every time you fail you can amount to something and you can do positive work you can leave a good impact a positive mark for our world that meant a lot to me and that's when I put my name in the hat and wanted to be a nationalot because it was completely consistent with my goals that I promised Mikey Mark Ryan long list of our brothers who are not here with us today that I would for the rest of my life do something to impact positive good in our world is it um was it is there a recruiter that comes around I mean where did you dare pick up a brochure in class where did you you must have the idea get you must have been watching you know a movie or something and gone so that was huge huge learning for me and I'm very thankful that I had the years that in going to college are working in a different line of work to really understand that a different human side a different meaning of what I meant to be human I was I remember I had conversations with life and death because life and death the two-partue commanders you know we were getting asked questions we were getting the people that we're saying well should you guys been going on the day or should you guys been working with like we were getting all those questions and I had a legitimate sit down with both those guys and I was like listen we cannot be emotional about this we cannot respond it came after we went to a meeting where it was an officer detailer meeting and we were you know it's sort of plotting out what the what an officer career should look like blah and so he goes on to point it just like you all did with the attitude of like okay cool you know nothing's going on we're going to go to a place with a good gym will train some Iraqi soldiers and we will you know get big and then sure enough as fate would have it you guys roll in and pretty quickly after you guys roll in the I don't know if you know this side of the story but the conventional some of the conventional commanders that were there when task unit bruiser was there found out that some of the guys from task unit bruiser were back in country and put out a very specific request for forces that spelled out exactly who they wanted and that's that's why you guys ended up getting the call for supporting the efforts inside of solder city which was a freaking disaster at the time yeah what you described took me years to learn and it is probably one of the most important traits of being a leader is having one the emotional and social intelligence of knowing your audience knowing who you're talking to and being dynamic enough that you can switch and craft your language your body language your tone of voice everything you do to suit the person you're talking to you can the way I would talk to a puttune seals would be very different then the way I would talk to a 60 year old COPD patient and COPD is like a long disease from common in folks who smoke who is in the hospital for the end of the time who wants to quit smoking and is frustrated and needs some guidance that patient is a different population and being able to have the clarity and intelligence to know that and to switch your language appropriately is so important to yield results and that goes for everything I'm you just that's why blanket leadership tenants don't work guiding principles work but you need a format to your own style to achieve the results and I think a lot of it starts with awareness with mindfulness of your own emotions of the emotions the body language that others are telling you because it gives you hints as to what they're feeling and if you know what they're feeling you understand where they're coming from that perspective you can disarm people by finding common ground and achieving results because most of the time all people want good things they just disagree on how to achieve that and again I don't want to sound fatalistic about this because I didn't think about it in a way I didn't think about it like hey throw caution when this is going to happen anyways it wasn't like that at all it was like reality the reality was you know the reality was I'm talking to the brigade commander every day I'm talking to the Italian commanders every day I know what to go on out there in some cases I'm tracking it you know by the hour and so that in my gut was the hardest was the most was the hardest thing that I had to deal with was just man just being worried about you guys that was it it's not time wasted that's not I would still be very feel very privileged and it'd be a huge honor to support on going missions so to me I have I don't know when I'll be assigned and I don't care I will be happy with whatever I had the honor of doing and I will fulfill any role to the best my ability future is bright well listen Johnny we've actually been going out at for a little over four hours right now I know we went through your whole life which is not bad in four hours what I know people are going to want to contact you talk to you you know getting touch with you I know that you're on social media now big time unfortunately I say my words carefully and that's that meant so much to me so a lot of times I don't understand when a person who is in buddha and is not a performer and everyone else wants him to quit how they could like be there because I care so much about what my brothers think that if they didn't want me there I would never be there I would never want to slow anyone else down I don't know to answer your question you know there were certainly hard times I don't think there was ever a time where I wanted like I'm gonna quit but there was definitely times where I wanted the pain to stop and one particular time I remember it was you know that two hour nap you get in buds or in hell week and you said sustained presence on the moon sustained while getting to the moon by 2024 at this current time is not we are not planning on having sustained presence in 2024 by 2028 we are planning on having sustained presence on the moon so having the lunar outpost and learning what it's like to live called a planetary haka-cou-boon learning what it's like like having challenges and struggles because the space station is 250 miles away it's a four-hour trip if something bad happens on the space station it's reassuring knowing that there is a vehicle a Soyuz vehicle which is a Russian vehicle waiting there to take our crew members back to Earth if needed the moon is longer it's four-ish days to get back Mars that's even longer we're talking about months so it's prudent that we learn as much as we can but what it's like to live on a different planetary body like the moon before we try and get to Mars and that's what having sustained presence on the moon is all about the when when do you think you'll get assigned to a crew is it even noble so you know their critters are they have a difference between accidents and luck could you keep calling things accidents some of it sounds like it might be a little bit more luck some of it's luck that you made accidents I don't know I think I think what I'm trying to point out is that there wasn't a plan God not a plan at all I mean plan for me was just I like to told you all I wanted to be was a seal I had no idea no aspirations to be a physician to be an astronaut I just want one goal at a time that's really important to me even to this day that you have one singular goal because you should be all in and what you're doing you should be genuine in what you're doing not have some social climbing some some professional ladder that you're trying to meet these goals and be stepping stones and why I said accidents because I didn't want to be a corpsman in fact I wanted to be an intelligent specialist because the sounded cool or an operation I had no idea what an IS or an OS which is the rating for those to job didn't I just sounded cool so I've met a bit on the the the the Saturn or weaker side of the gray man but work up you you know as the as the guy that was running it the only people that kind of that showed up on my radar a lot where people that were having problems and you didn't show up on radar as having problems you were pretty much could do everything I mean what I appreciated about the teams was that it was a true meritocracy you got out of it what you put in and my original fears of being the menic of being boxed into just that responsibility because I wanted to do more I wanted to be the best asset I could be to my patreon to to my brothers and I quickly fell under the mentorship of many other people on the batoon Chris Cal was the primary sniper navigator point man and new guys kind of get matched up to a person he was the person I got matched up to because I would eventually be groomed to take on his responsibilities so early on I got tasked with being like the assistant lead now and point man and sniper which eventually got to take on these roles more a primary leader and workup and also on the point man so that meant that responsibility meant so much to me and I wanted to practice and train and wake up early and make sure just because I didn't want to mess it up not for myself but because I felt I owed and I did owe that responsibility of doing a good job to my patreon hey I got to admit this is like furl he's like if I like slacker whatever like I don't I can't like mentally allow myself to wear the shirt he's like I can't cuz it's like I'm betraying the shirt for sure same but but he said something along the lines of you know when we were saying well it'd be good to do this job or that job or whatever and the conversation was going and he said something along the lines of well not everyone's going to be as lucky as you guys were because I think you know he was just trying to say be good for guys to be able to get another shit and he goes not everyone's going to be as lucky as you guys were then and I get what he was saying but like I had to I had to you know just detach a little bit because let's face it

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Episode transcript

[00:00:00] This is Jockel Podcast number 221 with echo Charles and me, Jockel Willink. Good evening, echo. Good evening.
[00:00:09] June 15th, 2010. Members of the selection committee. It is with absolute conviction that I give my
[00:00:21] strongest possible personal recommendation to Jonathan Y Kim's selection for medical school.
[00:00:30] There is no one more qualified to make this recommendation than me. As Jonathan was under my
[00:00:36] direct supervision as a US Navy SEAL combat medic while I commanded SEAL Team 3 tasking
[00:00:43] abuser during the Battle of Ramadi Operation Iraqi Freedom from April until October 2006.
[00:00:52] During this time, the city of Ramadi was the epicenter of the insurgency and a place filled with
[00:00:58] fear, violence, casualties, and death. In that brutal and unforgiving environment,
[00:01:08] Jonathan's undontant courage, tenacious devotion to duty and superb skills as a combat
[00:01:16] medic were tested and proven over and over again. On one particular occasion, he and a small
[00:01:25] element of other SEAL combat advisors were leading a patrol of Iraqi soldiers through an enemy
[00:01:30] controlled sector of Ramadi. The patrol was ferociously ambushed, leaving an Iraqi soldier
[00:01:38] severely wounded and lying helpless in the street. Jonathan and another SEAL who had taken
[00:01:46] refuge from the enemy gunfire behind a concrete wall left their safe position and stormed
[00:01:53] forward into the hail of enemy bullets. They then dragged the wounded soldier under intense enemy
[00:02:00] fire back to a secure position where Jonathan immediately began performing combat trauma care
[00:02:06] on the Iraqi soldier. Another Iraqi soldier was then wounded by enemy fire. And Jonathan provided
[00:02:15] medical care to him as well, eventually organizing the casualty evacuation for the wounded men.
[00:02:24] Jonathan was awarded the Silver Star Medal in recognition of his bold courage under enemy fire.
[00:02:33] That level of heroism and bravery was not an isolated incident.
[00:02:37] On another occasion, Jonathan exposed himself to enemy sniper fire in order to attend
[00:02:44] to one of his SEAL-Potune mates who had been severely wounded by an enemy sniper round
[00:02:49] that had struck the SEAL in the face.
[00:02:53] Exposing himself to the enemy sniper fire that had just wounded his fellow SEAL
[00:02:58] and with blatant disregard for his own personal safety, Jonathan moved to the fallen SEAL
[00:03:03] stabilized the patient and organized the evacuation. For this action, he was awarded the
[00:03:10] Bronze Star Medal with combat distinguishing device. Jonathan's bold courage
[00:03:20] calm decisiveness and intrinsic desire to provide care to the wounded even under the most intense
[00:03:27] urban combat imaginable continued for our entire deployment. Even as combat fatigue said in
[00:03:35] on many of the men as they saw their teammates, friends and brothers and arms wounded or killed
[00:03:42] time and time again, Jonathan never faltered. I know that the horrors of combat have shown
[00:03:52] Jonathan more stress and chaos than most will ever see. I also know that he handled that stress
[00:04:00] and chaos with a calmness of heart and a steadiness of mind that any man would admire.
[00:04:10] As further evidence of this, after his deployment to Ramadi with task in a bruiser,
[00:04:16] Jonathan was recognized for his stellar performance when he was selected as United States
[00:04:21] Special Operations Command medic of the year for 2006. Jonathan has now applied his strong
[00:04:30] work ethic and sharp intellect to college where he is performing with equal distinction,
[00:04:35] having earned a 3.98 grade point average. His remarkable aptitude for math and science is
[00:04:43] reflected in his standing on the mortar board honor society, the deans list and first honors role.
[00:04:53] Additionally, his dedication to services represented in the many hours he has spent as a volunteer
[00:04:59] at both sharp memorial hospital and Balboa naval hospital.
[00:05:02] This academic prowess willingness to serve selflessness and duty and personal will to
[00:05:12] accomplish the mission even in the most severe combat situations are qualities so unique
[00:05:18] that I cannot fathom a more exemplary candidate for medical school.
[00:05:24] I am completely confident he will excel both in school and in the field and will make
[00:05:30] not only Harvard proud but also provide the finest and most compassionate medical care to
[00:05:37] every patient blessed enough to come under his charge.
[00:05:44] I would be more than happy to answer any questions about Jonathan Kim and his unlimited potential.
[00:05:50] Since nearly John G. Willink commander, naval special warfare group one training detachment.
[00:06:06] And that right there was a letter of recommendation. I wrote four, Jonathan Kim,
[00:06:15] otherwise known as Johnny Kim, for his acceptance into Harvard Medical School.
[00:06:25] And this was after I wrote him a letter of recommendation to be commissioned as an officer in the navy.
[00:06:30] And after I sat on his board for the commissioning program.
[00:06:36] But before I wrote him a recommendation for acceptance into NASA to become an astronaut.
[00:06:41] And Johnny was accepted into the officer program. He was accepted into college. He was accepted into Harvard.
[00:06:48] And he was accepted into NASA to become an astronaut. And it was easy to write those letters of
[00:06:54] recommendation because the person that Johnny was and is simply an outstanding individual in every way.
[00:07:05] And it was an honor to work with him and task unit bruiser. And it's an honor to have Johnny Kim here with us
[00:07:13] tonight to talk about his life and his lessons learned. And he's a humble guy. So I already know he's going to be
[00:07:18] mad at me for opening up with that grandiose letter of recommendation from all those years ago.
[00:07:26] But I will say Johnny, you brought it on yourself by achieving so much. So Johnny,
[00:07:32] welcome and thanks for coming on, Dennis. It's pretty bizarre to be sitting here with you right now
[00:07:39] after all these years. It is. Thank you for having me here. It's an honor to be here and thank you for the
[00:07:45] kind and generous and also undeserving words. I mean, listening to that story, it seems a world away.
[00:07:54] But at the same time, it seems like it just happened. Yeah, that's the way I think that's the way
[00:08:00] life is. And I think that's the way military for me. My military career is in chunks. And you know,
[00:08:07] I spent a chunk of time at Seal team one as a new guy. Then I spent a chunk of time at Seal team two
[00:08:13] as a young person. Then I spent a chunk of time in college. Then a chunk of time here. And
[00:08:18] those those chunks can be years long. But sometimes they just seem like they went by in 15 minutes.
[00:08:24] So, man, your story, which you're really just in the middle of right now, I guess. Let's just go back to the
[00:08:33] beginning and go through, you know, growing up and what that was like and we'll get through the teams.
[00:08:39] We'll get all the way up to sitting at this table, which, like you said earlier, is very strange for
[00:08:43] you and me to be in this position. And I don't think you want to let's ever thought we would sit
[00:08:47] doing what we're doing right now. Never. Let's do it. Right on, man. So where are you born?
[00:08:54] Los Angeles, California. And what was the scenario you grew up in?
[00:09:00] Yeah. So, first generation Korean American, my parents immigrated to the states. In the early 80s,
[00:09:07] a couple years before I was born, I was born in 84. And growing up for me was, there were some hard times
[00:09:19] growing up. I mean, I have always kept my growth, my childhood, close to the chest, even. Some of my closest
[00:09:29] friends I've never told how I grew up. No, it wasn't out of shame or anything, but I think it was
[00:09:35] a little bit, I think it's always been private for me. And it's been a part of my identity. And
[00:09:43] for a lot of the same reasons why I wanted to be a seal that freed we swore to to never really
[00:09:54] to do the things we do and not seek recognition for it. I've never, in that same vein, I never wanted
[00:09:59] to tell my story. But my dad was hard worker. He was uneducated. I think he, I don't know if
[00:10:12] he finished high school. But he grew up in a poor rural area in South Korea. And my mother was
[00:10:20] from a middle or well-to-do class family in South Korea. Her father, my grandfather, was a professor
[00:10:30] at Seoul University. And so they came over here and my dad worked for what he didn't have for education.
[00:10:39] He more than made up for with just pure grit and work ethic. And like a lot of Korean Americans,
[00:10:49] especially in Los Angeles, he owned a liquor store in downtown Los Angeles near South Central.
[00:10:59] And I think a lot of what I have become a lot of the decisions I've made in my life
[00:11:09] started with my father. And growing up, my father had, he had a lot of demons.
[00:11:22] Like a lot of people on the think he did the best he could to live within those, to live with those
[00:11:30] demons. But a lot of times he didn't have the mental strength to really not let those demons get
[00:11:40] a hold of him. And so much of what I've learned in my life has been what not to do by example
[00:11:50] of my father. And growing up, I mean, it seems, it just seems a different life to me now.
[00:12:01] Because I've had different experiences, so many humbling experiences. And I think about where I came from.
[00:12:08] It seems like a big accident. This seems like an accident to be sitting here with you talking about this.
[00:12:15] Everything I've done is an accident. Being a seal was an accident. Going to medical school,
[00:12:22] being a physician, being a national, those were all accidents, not part of the plan at all.
[00:12:29] All I wanted to do is to gain growing up was protect my family. Protect really my mother and
[00:12:35] my brother from my father. It was very abusive. And like a lot of family suffered from alcoholism.
[00:12:47] It's a pretty bad alcoholism. So when you were, when you were experienced that growing up at what age
[00:12:54] did you recognize that this was not normal? And it's hard to put a number on when I
[00:13:05] knew it was not normal. But I remember at a very young age having that feeling to protect my brother.
[00:13:12] My younger brother from it, you know, when the fights were going on or when the abuse is going on
[00:13:18] to try and shield him from it. Or, and I have a very distinct memory of actually trying to protect my
[00:13:24] mother one time and it didn't go well. And my mother also telling me to never do that again.
[00:13:35] Because I had a love. I should have not want to see me get hurt.
[00:13:41] And then at what age, at some age did you get to a point where you could step in and defend your
[00:13:48] mom? You know, yeah, I'm sorry to talk about such heavy things. And you get a, you get a
[00:13:58] podcast, but you know, you wanted to know how it all started off. Yeah, you know, that's why
[00:14:06] when I think about my life growing up, I was, I was a different, I was scared, I was a scared,
[00:14:13] little boy, scared of the world, scared of relationships, scared of talking to people,
[00:14:19] going to school, of having my own opinions of speaking up or fighting for what I believe is right.
[00:14:26] I was so scared, I was definitely scared my father. And, you know, it's just living on,
[00:14:38] living on egg shells to make sure to pray, you know, I pray every night, hoping that things
[00:14:45] would get better or that my, that my father would see the light and, you know, all those experiences
[00:14:58] while they were terrible at the time, I wouldn't take, I wouldn't trade any of that for anything,
[00:15:07] I would never want to trade that. Because everything that happened helped,
[00:15:16] formed me to the person I am today. And we'll talk about it, the teams helped
[00:15:22] channel that into good. So what point did you hear about the teams?
[00:15:34] So I was 16 years old and I would say being lost was probably a good description of how I felt
[00:15:45] up until that time. And I was, you know, it's like a martial arts thing with my buddies. And I was mostly
[00:15:52] just doing, because a couple of my buddies, Ryan Calam, some Keith Blum, were big into martial arts
[00:15:58] and I wanted to just hang out. And my buddy Keith told me with passion I've never seen before
[00:16:05] about the seal teams, about an ABCL. And this is 1999 or 2000. This is like no one knew what
[00:16:14] a seal is. It's a pre-911. I never heard what a seal was. And he told me with this passion about
[00:16:20] that quiet professional, that warrior that does these hard things that no one else wants to do,
[00:16:27] it never seeks recognition for those actions. And there was something about that,
[00:16:33] about that creed that deru me in a way I've never felt before. It called for me. And, you know,
[00:16:41] so I went home and went on my 56K modem and read everything I could about what it was as seal is.
[00:16:48] And I read a book that was pretty formative for me. It was the men with green faces by Gene
[00:16:56] Wenz. And my decision was made. And like this is what I'm going to do. And a week after discovering
[00:17:04] what it was, I told my mom, I'm going to be, I'm going to be an ABCL.
[00:17:09] And she had no idea what it was. You had to explain it to her. I assume.
[00:17:13] I mean, she just, she didn't know what it was. She just knew it was being
[00:17:19] a warrior, some type of soldier, an operator. And it was the last thing she wanted to hear from me.
[00:17:26] Did you get drawn to it? I mean, imagine, like, you know, you're saying that your whole life
[00:17:30] you felt scared and you felt weak and scared of your dad. Did you think, hey, if I do this,
[00:17:36] it's going to allow me give me the capability to protect people, including my mom.
[00:17:44] Absolutely. That is completely on point. You know, when people ask me why I want to be
[00:17:50] seal, it's so easy to come up with the superficial reasons. Like, yeah, I wanted to get paid to blow
[00:17:54] up stuff and jump out of planes and surf my country and shoot guns. But those are all fake
[00:18:02] superficial reasons. I didn't, those are absolute pluses, but that is not why I wanted to be a team guy.
[00:18:08] I wanted to be a team guy for what you said. I wanted to transform my life. I wanted
[00:18:14] to learn the skills, to develop the strength, to become a different person, to find my identity,
[00:18:21] be someone that could protect the people that I loved that couldn't protect themselves.
[00:18:26] And now that I have more awareness of human psychology and the experiences in our environment and
[00:18:33] how it shapes us into the people we become and the decision to we make, I realized that it was completely
[00:18:42] born out of my situation with my father and wanting to protect my brother and my mother and that
[00:18:52] extending to really all people. I thought, this is nice, it goes to show how little we know
[00:18:59] when we are young. I thought that being a seal would solve all of my life's problems.
[00:19:10] And it gave clarity and focus to so many, but it probably created just as many more.
[00:19:17] But it gave me tools to deal with those problems. But it was pretty naive thought,
[00:19:25] and I even said it to my mother. I said, being a seal will solve all of life's problems.
[00:19:33] Were you, so you're in high school, are you, are you doing sports or anything like that?
[00:19:40] Yeah, so I was a big swimmer, I played Waterpolo and after I found out what it was to be a team guy,
[00:19:46] I did all my research and I, what's a Stu Smith who I recently learned is in the world of
[00:19:55] kind of like making fitness, Navy Seal guidelines and workout plans. I found his book which is
[00:20:02] maybe like the first like first edition or second, you might be a later edition now and like
[00:20:08] did all those workouts and then you know, did it twice through and just tried to push myself
[00:20:14] every day after school and doing, I went to Hatsana, Marga High School, so the beach was three blocks away.
[00:20:20] So always doing swims and runs and a lot of calisthenics, a lot of pushups.
[00:20:25] Was you, what about school? Were you paying attention to school? Were you academically focused?
[00:20:32] I was, I felt like I was going through the motions of school and I did pretty well.
[00:20:38] And I always got straight A's, I did pretty well but I knew college was not for me. I did,
[00:20:46] I was lost, I didn't know what I wanted to do after high school but I knew it wasn't college.
[00:20:51] And so when I heard about the teams that calling, so this is what I'm going to do and it was
[00:20:58] it's too date, it is the strongest calling I've had.
[00:21:01] Yeah, there's, I have conversations with people a lot and
[00:21:09] man, that idea that you should go to college right after you get done with high school.
[00:21:14] I don't know if that's the best idea for everyone. I mean for some people it works, I get it,
[00:21:19] but you're a class example, I'm a class example, I mean when I ended up going to college later,
[00:21:24] hey, this is fine, you know, you're you're disciplined, you're focused, you can get stuff done,
[00:21:29] but yeah coming out of high school, I would have been just, you know,
[00:21:34] the focus is not there, you're not there for the right reasons. I think everything you do in life should
[00:21:39] be for the right reasons. In going to school after high school because that's what your parents told
[00:21:45] you to do and that's like the next default. It may work for some people, I don't think it's
[00:21:50] necessarily the right decision for a lot of people, like you said we're both prime examples of that,
[00:21:54] I think we both went to a new grad in our later years in life, I was like 26 or 27 when I went to
[00:21:59] undergrad. Were you worried about when you went in the Navy that you weren't going to be around your
[00:22:04] mom, you weren't going to be around your little brother, were you worried about them with your dad?
[00:22:10] I would have been, but my father actually passed away before I joined the Navy so I didn't have,
[00:22:16] I didn't have that worry. What age was that? How old were you?
[00:22:22] I just turned 18. So it was close. Yeah, it was close. February 21st, 2002.
[00:22:31] And was that, I mean, that had to be a weird feeling of this guy that had been abusive to you,
[00:22:38] your brother, your mom, and but he's still your dad. I mean, how did you, how did you,
[00:22:44] how do you wash out those feelings? Oh, it's a complex question. And just, you know, I,
[00:22:57] I want to be clearly, I have no ill feelings against my father and I have forgiven him
[00:23:03] of the years of abuse that he gave. And when I grew a little bit older and I entered,
[00:23:11] where he came from, he also came from a pretty terrible home situation. And I think his demons,
[00:23:18] he just didn't have the tools or the aptitude, the mental strength, the deal with those demons.
[00:23:24] And like a lot of people, they passed those on, right? The sins of our father passed on to us.
[00:23:29] And I don't fault him. And with the abuse, most of it was directed at my mother, you know,
[00:23:39] verbal and the physical abuse. I mean, it was not as direct with us. I mean,
[00:23:46] certainly there was, you know, the belts to the feet. And I remember,
[00:23:54] always kind of being scared to go to sleep sometimes because, you know, there were times
[00:24:02] where being woken up with a cold glass of water to the face was what would happen, or being woken
[00:24:08] up and being asked what of my possessions I had to choose what he would break. And front of me
[00:24:15] and I understand a lot of that was just to hurt my mother and he did a good job of doing that.
[00:24:19] And so he saw that hurting his children was the best way to actually hurt his mother.
[00:24:25] My mother was a very strong woman and so physically, or verbally, I'm using her, to a point.
[00:24:33] I was like, well, just bring it, it's not, but hurt my children. It's going to crush me. You know,
[00:24:41] when my father died, it, I feel like it was the day I was reborn into someone else.
[00:24:50] And I would probably have to backtrack and tell you the context of why I feel that way.
[00:24:55] I'm going to go back to my mother's life. Towards the later years of high school, my mother had
[00:25:05] had enough of the life she had been experiencing. And she would have left my father long ago,
[00:25:12] but it was really us, my brother, her Jeff, that she couldn't leave behind to my father. And there's
[00:25:20] no way my father would have left her, let her leave with us that was not going to happen.
[00:25:26] So, but there was time where she just couldn't be in the same household. So, for months at a time,
[00:25:36] she had worked at, or that she would actually sleep at a friend's house or go away.
[00:25:40] So at night time when my father came back, you know, the food, like my mother would prepare dinner
[00:25:45] and food, but she would be somewhere else. And this arrangement was going on and I think my father
[00:25:52] obviously not very happy with the situation. I thought it would go back to normal because
[00:25:58] there had been a period of time where my mother would leave for a little bit, but it always came back
[00:26:01] because like a lot of abuse and relationship, it's hard to leave that, right? And especially when
[00:26:07] the abuse or promises, they'll change and may change temporarily, but then goes back to their ways
[00:26:13] to classics story. But this time was a little bit different and I think my father knew that this
[00:26:20] time was different and was getting frustrated and I think seeing that there were little options
[00:26:28] left and I think maybe felt cornered and I think cornered animals can be dangerous.
[00:26:36] We were very dangerous, not that I think he was cornered but I think he felt that way.
[00:26:40] So on this particular day, I think it was February 21st, 2002, I was home with my mother and
[00:26:54] it was during the day and my father came home and he was supposed to be at work so I think it was
[00:26:59] a little surprising. And I remember when he came home, I could smell the whiskey on his breath
[00:27:08] so I know he was new, he was very intoxicated and it was just, I could feel something was different
[00:27:19] this time. There was attention and I knew I had to stick around and my mother was surprised and
[00:27:31] scared to see him there and they went the kitchen and I stuck close by in the couch in the living room.
[00:27:40] And I remember my father came out to me and some of the last words he said to me was, I'm sorry,
[00:27:49] Jonathan, I need to be afraid of my face and then all I hear in the kitchen is my mother
[00:28:01] screaming for help and saying he's got it gone. So I then, you know, fight or flight, you do what
[00:28:10] you need to do to protect the people you love. So I got up and I did my best to fight him and get that
[00:28:20] gun and fought as hard as I could as strong as I guess 140 pound your old kid could do at the time.
[00:28:32] But I lost that fight, I still have a scar right around here from when my father was
[00:28:43] he was able to get a hold of a dumbbell nearby and smash my head in with it and I think they
[00:28:50] kind of turned the fight and he was able to get his gun out of his pocket. He shot it in the air
[00:28:59] and it was, you know, that was the first time in my life that I faced a life or death situation
[00:29:10] and as you and I know there were many more to come later but for different reasons but this was my
[00:29:17] first taste of it and I don't know how maybe but I had the grace of God or something that I said,
[00:29:26] you know, I more clearly pleading with him that we loved him and that he didn't have to do this
[00:29:35] and that it wasn't. I'm clearly remember saying that it's not too late. Like this you have
[00:29:42] you have the power to decide right now it's not too late and I think maybe clarity or grace
[00:29:52] in a moment of clarity that my father found he decided not to shoot us not to kill us and I told
[00:30:00] them to go run just run and he did he went he left the back door and that was the last time I saw my father
[00:30:13] you know after that in the hysteria of that my mother was on the phone and called my one one
[00:30:19] and screaming for help and so eventually ambulances came and police came and I got you know I got
[00:30:26] my head stapled at the hospital I came back and the police were there right a report and I
[00:30:33] came back and to my room and I noticed that things had shifted I have a closet that has access to
[00:30:41] the attic and I noticed that there were furniture was moved in such a way to gain access to the
[00:30:48] attic and I told police that I think my father's still in the house and he's in the attic
[00:30:57] so they they did what they're trying to do they section off the area and confronted my father and
[00:31:05] one thing led to another I wasn't there but shots were fired and my father was killed
[00:31:18] and I remember that day so vividly it was I don't mean to sound countless but in in a lot of ways
[00:31:33] it liberated me liberated it's generally liberated my mother it was one of the hardest
[00:31:41] emo sad days for her but it liberated her and it liberated myself and my brother and it taught me
[00:31:51] it became the benchmark for me to do so many more things in my life because I don't think I was
[00:31:57] meant to be a seal I don't think I was born to do any of the things that I've had the opportunity
[00:32:05] to do but is because of those experiences being able to stand up to a person to a figure who I
[00:32:14] feared more than anyone and to be able to do something that I never thought I could be possible
[00:32:21] doing standing up to someone especially someone who was threatening to kill you and the person
[00:32:26] you loved most it was empowering it it it taught it liberated me taught me I'm not the scared little
[00:32:35] boy I thought I was I can do these things that I can be a part of something bigger than myself
[00:32:44] and you know I remember having so much foolish knife prod at the time I was naturally
[00:32:57] even 18 and just so angry with the world just having so much hate to my heart I think a lot of
[00:33:05] I had a lot of hate my heart as a kid when I see my child Christian who is full of happiness
[00:33:12] and carefree and it's like me in so many ways I see him and I realize that is the person I would have
[00:33:18] become and I want to protect that but with the life the card side been given I just had a lot of
[00:33:26] hate my heart and I refused to cry because I thought that was a form of weakness to cry for my
[00:33:35] father would pass then I never you know didn't cry at his funeral or anything and I remember
[00:33:43] that day on that day when my father died we went to the police department and I already know
[00:33:51] what had happened and I remember going in and there were three cops to the side and you could I
[00:33:59] I knew then and I also know just now of how warriors talk and the guy talking was motioning with
[00:34:08] his hands and he was recounting the story that led to my father's death and you know using his
[00:34:14] motions of how he entered and he saw us come in and my brother and was weeping and very
[00:34:22] naturally inconceivable and I was there and I think we made brief eye contact and I think I think
[00:34:28] I think I had the clarity and the respect to kind of stop what he was doing and realized that he was
[00:34:37] probably recounting a war story of someone he had killed and in this family which is walking through
[00:34:42] I haven't thought about that a long time but it just telling the story made me remember that
[00:34:47] and the police the detective I taught to he said son I'm sorry to tell you but your father
[00:34:54] is dead and this is one I want in a room and I just emotionalist just stone faced and he said
[00:35:04] I take it that this is not bad news it this is good and I said it I'm just relieved sir and he said
[00:35:27] I understand so
[00:35:28] and it's just a day for so many reasons that that helped me be reborn into the person I
[00:35:45] wanted to become that I've always wanted to become my entire life and I knew from there that
[00:35:51] maybe just maybe I had what it took to be a seal is there anything that you can think of
[00:36:03] because like that that's obviously just a harrowing story but at some point you
[00:36:13] or maybe it was some point along the way or maybe it was multiple points along the way but
[00:36:17] it's like you turn instead of turning towards the darkness right instead of becoming a person
[00:36:23] that's abusive instead of hating like you said you had hatred in your heart which could have
[00:36:29] turned you and just a completely totally different direction in your life
[00:36:35] is there anything that you can think of that made you look up and say you know this is for me right now
[00:36:40] you know this is my first time hearing this stuff and you know when you when you
[00:36:49] you applied to becoming an officer and become a PA I think that's what you originally applying for
[00:36:55] were you becoming trying to become a PA for me it's always being a physician okay so you're applying
[00:37:00] for the medical thing and I remember I'm sitting on your medical board and or your officer board
[00:37:06] and I'm with it's me as a seal and two like one regular officer and then like a doctor officer
[00:37:14] and I remember I said something along the lines of because you know me I kind of say whatever I
[00:37:19] want but I said something along the lines of like hey I don't like hospitals I don't like doctors
[00:37:25] I don't like nurses I don't like any of that stuff I have no idea why you would ever want to do this
[00:37:30] I don't know why you want to go being a hospital all day and I said but if I had to have someone
[00:37:38] taking care of my kids I would want it to be you because I knew you had this just um you that
[00:37:44] you were a very compassionate person that you really cared about other people I mean I saw that
[00:37:49] from day one with you and and now I'm I'll say now it's so obvious well part of it's obvious
[00:37:58] part of it's obvious that you can go with these experiences that you went through I mean we see it
[00:38:03] every day that people go in two directions with those you know when horrible things like that happen they
[00:38:07] can follow in those footsteps of of evil for lack of a better word or they can recognize that
[00:38:16] it's evil and they can go in the other direction which is what you did and I'm just wondering is
[00:38:21] there can you are there any pieces that you can put together that you can say to yourself well
[00:38:26] one of the things that you saw was this and this made you think you know what my the way my
[00:38:34] father acted was wrong and I'm not going to be that way it's a good question
[00:38:45] I don't think I have an answer for you I think that's a question that a lot of people would
[00:38:52] love answered especially with so much abuse and dysfunction in society in America all over the world
[00:39:02] we would love to know what it is that allows people to sublet me their bad experiences
[00:39:10] to channel it for a good cause and I'm not here to tell you I was never on the path to darkness
[00:39:20] I am by no means a saint or have always done good things I've done things that I'm not proud of
[00:39:32] I've sinned I sinned every day I try and keep that light there as a guiding path for good all the time
[00:39:44] and one of the reasons why I wanted to be a doctor was not because I was in love with medicine
[00:39:53] I mean I do like medicine but it's to serve to a cause greater than myself that leaves a
[00:40:01] positive mark in this world it's the same reason why I wanted to be an astronaut I think being a
[00:40:06] seal was maybe a little bit more selfish for the reason that we talked about because I wanted to
[00:40:10] be a part of I wanted to find my identity but I don't know I think my I think my mother had a large
[00:40:18] part into it she's one of the strongest women I know and seeing that strength and that selflessness
[00:40:28] and that sacrifice she fact sacrificed her dreams she could have been someone she's a smart woman
[00:40:35] she's a beautiful woman she didn't have to be with my father but I after having two boys
[00:40:48] and loving her children so much that she would sacrifice her dreams her potential to protect us
[00:40:55] I think that had a significant effect on me so if there's anyone to credit it would be my mother
[00:41:08] I don't I don't know if I don't know if I have the answer though
[00:41:15] well certainly seeing an example and you know I've been talking about this lately
[00:41:21] when you sometimes it's not easy to see something if there's not a contrast against it but for you to
[00:41:27] see the contrast of someone that's bad you know your dad doing bad things abusing weaker people I
[00:41:36] mean this is just you know they're just that's just bad and you might not have noticed
[00:41:42] how bad that was if it weren't contrasted so drastically against your mom who is making
[00:41:49] the ultimate sacrifice with her life and standing up for you and taking that abuse and staying in that
[00:41:56] situation because she wanted to take care of you kids and I think when you see that sometimes it
[00:42:03] makes things just more obvious it's something that you may not have seen otherwise if your mom was
[00:42:09] you know if your mom was just as abusive or she had her own problems or she was doing things that
[00:42:13] were wrong you you may have just thought that's the way the world is and that's the way you're going
[00:42:18] yeah but to be able to see oh it doesn't have to be like this and there's there's good in people's
[00:42:25] hearts is that that could be for a kid the difference you know I mean
[00:42:37] all good points sand it's so weird to be saying to be recounting this story I've never said this story
[00:42:46] publicly and you said yourself you've never heard this story well if you ask most guys
[00:42:53] from Charlie Bitton they have not heard this actually I think if you ask all about one maybe
[00:42:59] one person they have not heard this story and it's just something I kept close to my chest because
[00:43:08] everyone has their story I don't think my story is anymore important in anyone else's
[00:43:14] and we talked a little bit before this podcast but I'm a little at unease and still I am
[00:43:22] about being on a podcast like this because it's so I don't see I don't want to say it's contrary
[00:43:28] to my beliefs but it just requires being extra thoughtful and I think that create we all
[00:43:36] swore to to not advertise and promote the nature of our work and never seek recognition for
[00:43:47] that night take that creed too hard so it's weird for me to be recounting this story
[00:43:58] publicly and if it was up to me I'd keep it close to the chest for all my days but as I've grown
[00:44:04] older I've come to realize that there is value for other people I'm not the only person in this
[00:44:12] situation and frankly there are people in way we're situations than I am than I was in who are
[00:44:19] still in it for them to know that you can be born with bad cards you mean you don't need to have it all
[00:44:30] but you have a choice and the power to craft your own destiny your own path and for that reason I think
[00:44:40] it's a I think it is less important that I keep stuff like this close to my chest and then that's why
[00:44:49] I'm sharing it with you well that's that's one of the very reasons why this podcast even exists
[00:44:57] is for people to learn one of the people go through that they're not alone that things could be
[00:45:03] worse for them they could get better I mean that's so exactly what you said is the exact reason why
[00:45:10] sharing that story is is absolutely important because people can people can learn from it people can
[00:45:17] people can get over their own things that they're facing because they know that someone else did it
[00:45:22] I mean how powerful is it you know you hear the story all the time about the first guy it will
[00:45:26] banister broke the four mile time or the the four minute mile no one thought it was possible once he
[00:45:31] did it all kinds of people did it so just knowing that someone like you can go from this horrible
[00:45:36] place and do what you've done yeah that's a that's huge did these events as they unfolded
[00:45:45] impact your decision to join the Navy and at what point did you go down to the recruiter and
[00:45:50] sign up so I was so when my father died it was a few months before graduating high school and
[00:45:57] I was already depved in I had a shift date so I had already gone and signed the paperwork and I
[00:46:02] mean not the not the final dot in line that makes you in the Navy you know you raise your right
[00:46:07] hand and do the enlisted oath but my mind was set I mean my mind was set a week after
[00:46:14] Keith Blum told me what a Navy seal was back when I was 16 I mean they was clear like
[00:46:19] I'm going to do this and no one is going to be able to convince me otherwise and I talked to
[00:46:26] people and people asked me to like I think I want to be a seal and I don't know if this is a
[00:46:31] litmus test but I always try and convince people to not do it and I feel like if I can convince
[00:46:36] someone to not do it I just perhaps have saved them in the money a lot of time and money
[00:46:41] because if I can convince you to not be a seal then you probably will convince yourself
[00:46:46] at the first sign of suffering so but I was not convincedable you could not convince me to do anything
[00:46:55] and the conversation this is crazy you're I'm pulling up memories I have not thought of in years
[00:47:02] just the conversations I had crafted that I was planning to tell my father because I could not tell
[00:47:08] my father I was born in the Navy no way he would have you know you may have quite literally killed me
[00:47:19] I think that would have been very upsetting to him because he had a clear path for me and it was to be
[00:47:26] it was to be a doctor at Harvard Medical School and I promised you that is not why I went to
[00:47:31] Harvard Medical School but it was to do that and for me I was like there's no way I'm going to do that
[00:47:37] I'm not going to live your dream I don't want to be a doctor I don't want to go to an Ivy League school
[00:47:43] I want to be in the trenches I want to enlist I want to be the E1 working my way up learning from
[00:47:50] everyone else learning the ropes and roughing it being in the trenches with boys that's all I
[00:47:56] wanted to do and I crafted how I would tell my father I was actually going to join the academy and I was
[00:48:04] thinking I had this plan to go the exchange and like buying officers uniform so when I would come home
[00:48:10] I would like show up in an officer's uniform just to like maintain this perception to my father that
[00:48:16] I was in the academy and these are like the ropes the extent that I had planned because I was so
[00:48:23] afraid to tell my father and fortunately I didn't have to do any of that because my father died
[00:48:30] it sounds callous but it fortunately I did not have to go through that deceit because my father passed away and
[00:48:40] I don't mean to paint my father in a bad light really I love my father I do I could not have said that
[00:48:48] I was unable to say those words for a very long time would I do love my father and I understand he was
[00:48:57] human and fell to sin and his demons he just didn't have the clarity and the tools to deal with that
[00:49:08] and I forgive him for that so I don't mean to paint my father in a bad light and as I said before
[00:49:15] I would not trade those experiences for anything because they were formative and everything I am today
[00:49:21] started with those with that darkness when you were talking about going into
[00:49:33] whatever going into the recruiter and all that and I'm imagining what when I did it when I
[00:49:39] remember being because you were talking about feeling liberated before when your dad died
[00:49:47] I know that when I joined the navy man I felt like so awesome like I felt like I didn't need anybody else
[00:49:56] I was 100 like you had no one had any control over me anymore I just kind of at that moment when I
[00:50:01] signed that dotted line I now was in control of my fate even though most people would look at the
[00:50:06] opposite oh you're in the navy now and you're gonna have to follow orders and where uniforms and all
[00:50:11] this stuff to me it was complete and utter freedom that's what it felt like now you're so you
[00:50:21] graduate high school so did you graduate your 18 years old or your 17 years old I was 18 when I
[00:50:26] graduated high school and you go to navy boot camp yep how was that I'm still in the navy
[00:50:39] I'm an active duty lieutenant so I will maintain my level of respect and difference to the ways of the
[00:50:47] navy but navy boot camp is just wasn't as trying as I thought it would I think when you have the idea
[00:50:59] that you're gonna be a seal you prepare yourself for a different standard so when you go to boot
[00:51:03] camp you show up in slow it's just a little different yeah well the focus is on like attention to detail
[00:51:10] it's more of a pain I don't know more more more of a pain like you're like oh this is a pain
[00:51:16] because you're after make your bed and you have to fold your underwear a certain way you have to do all these
[00:51:19] things that more than their physical pain they're just a pain just a pain there's a rhyme and
[00:51:26] reason for what I do things and I think it was sure um you know when I I smile I chuckle in
[00:51:31] my smile when I think about navy boot camp because that's where it all started I mean I loved it
[00:51:36] I like you said you felt free I felt free I felt I had no one like you know when my dad died
[00:51:43] I just felt this weight on my shoulders just released like I had never felt before and for the first
[00:51:50] time I didn't have to worry about my brother or my mother so and I just wanted to get away
[00:52:00] I the teams the military it was it might take it to escape the childhood I was born into this
[00:52:07] idea of Jonathan that people had knew as a scared little boy I needed a reset button and the
[00:52:14] military was my reset button I'm gonna start a new with people I don't know who have no idea where
[00:52:21] I came from of my background and I am going to go through the ranks on my own merit and hard work
[00:52:28] and learn how to be led and lead others and it was the best decision
[00:52:37] I have ever made and um every time I say that I think of my wife because I think marrying my wife
[00:52:48] was the best decision I made but it's it's a little different you understand what I mean but
[00:52:53] it was the best decision for me in my growth and development to join the military and it's not
[00:52:59] like the private I'm not trying to sound like a recruiter join the military it's not for everyone
[00:53:03] but it was for me I would tell you that and well this is true for my wife for sure if I wasn't
[00:53:08] if I didn't join the Navy if I didn't go in the teams my wife a probably wouldn't have married me
[00:53:14] because I wouldn't have been the human that I am and to this day if like the reason that
[00:53:23] where happily married is rooted in the fact that I was in the days whether she likes to
[00:53:28] or not she knows it's true like you're you have that always and it's always a part of you
[00:53:36] so um it sounded like you were pretty well prepared for buds in terms of you played water
[00:53:42] polo you were a good swimmer you were working out on the beach in Santa Monica
[00:53:47] it sounds like physically you were you were pretty good to go
[00:53:51] I would say in most aspects I think I over I put an over alliance on
[00:53:57] calisthenics and body you just body weight exercises I mean I could crush the piece whatever
[00:54:02] they call you now the PST you know the time run and swim and pull ups and all that stuff I could crush
[00:54:09] that but you put weight on me you put a log on me you put a boat on me how much did you want
[00:54:15] to go on a boat I was a 140 45 pounds I'm 180 105 now I'm a lot stronger now than it was back then
[00:54:23] but I'm also a lot slower like I probably can run this fast it's back then but I didn't understand
[00:54:30] strength the way I do now I didn't incorporate barbells into my routine it was all body weight
[00:54:37] stuff so it was definitely an over alliance on the body weight exercises calisthenics running swimming
[00:54:44] and if I could redo it I would have eaten a lot more calories during buds or before but
[00:54:50] four buds just to be bigger and stronger and I would have swatted in warmer and yeah I would have
[00:54:56] squatted a lot and just just to say I mean I was shoulder presses bench press squatting dead
[00:55:03] less I would I didn't know that before preparing for buds and so I feel I was preparing but I
[00:55:11] wasn't prepared in that respect then was there anything that gave you like a real problems in
[00:55:17] buds like did you did you make it through one class did you get rolled back at all now I was
[00:55:21] lucky enough to make it through with two four seven and one shot you started with two four seven
[00:55:27] and then you graduated with two four seven did you fail anything no because you were comfortable
[00:55:35] in the water from water polo so you were real for different dive phase yeah I thought dive
[00:55:40] dive phase was was great um I was very comfortable being thrown around the water because you're
[00:55:46] right I mean just from playing water polo you used to being like people were trying to drown
[00:55:50] you in the ball so being thrashed around in pool comp wasn't a big deal I mean
[00:55:56] everyone's keep the water you were your own greatest enemy in the water right if you just
[00:56:03] maintain clarity and focus and calm your nerves everything will be okay it's when you thrash
[00:56:10] you panic you get air hungry that plays on you and that's when you really people have a
[00:56:16] hard time I think when it comes to water related activities well yeah that's that's why
[00:56:20] I immediately went to and you said all you made it through everything I immediately was like oh yeah
[00:56:24] you played water polo because what what is it that church people like okay you're gonna be tired
[00:56:29] that can trip some people up you're gonna be called they don't want to be called anymore so they
[00:56:34] quit like those two things hey running and swimming pretty much are sorry running pretty much
[00:56:39] like you're gonna get put on the grind there and you're gonna your your times are gonna drop
[00:56:44] and you're gonna be there's not to me people like it dropped for running it happens for sure
[00:56:49] it's not to me people like I drop for obstacle course water though that's that's the
[00:56:54] separator right so if you're comfortable in the water going to buds man you have a huge
[00:56:59] leg up because all those little things you just rattled off as if it's no big deal like
[00:57:02] don't panic don't get air hungry like that's real easy when you're a water polo play but for
[00:57:06] these dudes from Iowa that didn't grow up in the water you know unless they grew up on a lake
[00:57:12] somewhere well I mean there were some guys in my class there was one guy I'm particularly
[00:57:16] that was from Iowa and he was a wrestler and he was strong and he was fast and he was an incredible
[00:57:22] shape and the dude sank and he just panicked in the water was in climate equipment yeah you know so
[00:57:27] I think that's a big a big separator but I have so much respect for the folks who didn't have
[00:57:33] that kind of background of being so comfortable with the water I don't want to say his name because
[00:57:38] he's still active and he's over at damn neck but let's say it's just his first name my buddy Tyler
[00:57:46] who I went through he was like my sister division in boot camp and I have so much respect for
[00:57:53] Tyler for just the way he carries himself and how he's just a very hard man but he showed up
[00:57:59] to boot camp and didn't know how to do the sidestroke that's insane and he learned in the
[00:58:04] locker room before the PST and this guy is like one most squared away and prepared guys ever
[00:58:10] and to this day I gave him like I'm like how did you show up and not know how to do the sidestroke
[00:58:16] but just from sheer willpower he made it through and and like performed very what we were
[00:58:23] swim buddies dive buddies so he performed very very well so I was I just chuckle and so I have a
[00:58:30] lot of respect for people who are not comfortable but through sheer willpower will get knocked out you
[00:58:37] know that 50 meters swim if you've played waterholder swim that's not a big deal to do 50
[00:58:42] meter underwater swim it gets uncomfortable sure but there are folks who go to they go to the light right
[00:58:50] they they go unconscious and I have so much respect for that level determination like I would rather die
[00:58:59] they can give up and you know and I don't know I had to get props to that was there anything that
[00:59:07] was there any moments in buddha where you were like man I don't know if this is from here
[00:59:10] did that not even cross your mind so I want to I want to be clear I was not a stellar performer
[00:59:15] but I was middle of the pack runner swimmer everything with the long stibotes you know there's a
[00:59:22] standard to hell wiggies it's not just don't quit you need to perform to a standard and for me
[00:59:28] I just wanted to make it clear I was giving my heart and everything I did so that my
[00:59:36] I cared more about what my boat crew thought then then my instructors there was one
[00:59:44] instructor who I still remember instructor Megan I think just had it out for me but you know
[00:59:52] just just a skinny kid from from Los Angeles and I cared so I just wanted to put all I was like
[01:00:00] if I just put out put out my boat crew looks at me and and I remember I got my boat crew Nick
[01:00:07] Jack who who passed away during hostage rescue who gave the ultimate sacrifice
[01:00:16] him and my buddy Steve another guy there gave me that reassuring like hey you belong here and that's
[01:00:24] that meant so much to me so a lot of times I don't understand when a person who is in buddha
[01:00:30] and is not a performer and everyone else wants him to quit how they could like be there because
[01:00:36] I care so much about what my brothers think that if they didn't want me there I would never be there
[01:00:42] I would never want to slow anyone else down I don't know to answer your question
[01:00:51] you know there were certainly hard times I don't think there was ever a time where I wanted like
[01:00:56] I'm gonna quit but there was definitely times where I wanted the pain to stop and one
[01:01:01] particular time I remember it was you know that two hour nap you get in buds or in hell
[01:01:06] week yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah
[01:01:09] the warm sleeping bag on a cot and they wake you up I don't know if they still do this but they
[01:01:13] wake you up and they just whisper like get up and hit the surf and like the nicest most
[01:01:19] compassionate voice and it disarms you right because it they have circumvented that fight or flight
[01:01:29] response right you don't have you you don't mount that defense you just immediately get
[01:01:33] woken up very nicely and get sent to the cold water and that was the closest where I was like
[01:01:40] I want this to stop I want this pain and suffering to stop but as far as like being like I want
[01:01:47] to quit or I'm going to quit that wasn't there for me yeah that's totally understand why
[01:01:53] you always hear that thing that everyone thinks about quitting and I'm like I didn't think about
[01:01:57] quitting I know I was like whatever bring it yeah I think there's a difference between wanting
[01:02:02] to thinking about quitting and thinking about just wanting it to stop yeah well definitely sucks yeah
[01:02:09] but you know what I was like you said you felt free when I showed some buds and I got wet and
[01:02:14] sandy I got my buddy Jordan Lewis I got a picture of when we first got wet and sandy in white shirts
[01:02:18] and we're just beaming with smiles or the selfie just like I was so happy to be there
[01:02:23] I'm so happy to be starting my journey of embracing that suffering and sucked what years it
[01:02:30] right now when you what year did you go to buds so to four seven started in early two thousand
[01:02:36] spring in 2003 spring summer 2003 so we were in hellwaken fall 2003 and then we you know
[01:02:44] graduate buds in 2004 early so you know you're going to war or at least hope and you are
[01:02:49] yeah I mean absolutely when you know people ask me to join cousin 911 and I mean frankly I
[01:03:00] already told you that's but I joined for very I think more selfish reasons but 911
[01:03:05] only galvanized me to want to join even more if anything it just just how naive I was I was a little
[01:03:14] bummed out this is my 18 year old self saying oh the war's gonna be done by the time I get there
[01:03:20] I missed it I'm 18 years old this is 2002 and I could not have been any more wrong
[01:03:30] but of course when at that time especially in my development I I wanted war I think
[01:03:40] I think it's hard articulate why I'm gonna but a lot of people feel this way who trained to do
[01:03:45] something they want that and I don't know how I'm sure we can talk at lengths about how we each
[01:03:53] now feel about the experiences we've gone through and I wouldn't trade for anything but war is
[01:03:58] I don't know about you but it was pretty ugly yeah for sure you know I had I was on a
[01:04:05] guy named Sam Harris's podcast and he called me out because you know I I talk about how like
[01:04:11] leading men in combat is the best thing in my life and and then I also say war is absolute you know
[01:04:17] the most horrible thing in the world and he goes how do you how do you reconcile those two things
[01:04:22] and the way I explained to him I said if you ever met somebody that has cancer that survives
[01:04:26] and when they get through they say they say you know I'm glad it happened to me because they learned
[01:04:33] so much they don't would never wish it on anybody well that's that's pretty much exactly how
[01:04:38] I feel about war I've never heard that analogy but I think it's on point I would never trade it
[01:04:44] for anything and I would go back in the trenches right now in a split second with my brothers
[01:04:51] I would go back in that environment right now but I would never wish it on my own children and I hope
[01:04:57] they never see it you get done with buds and then you you when did you know you're gonna be
[01:05:08] going to age you go to 18 delta I did yeah so when I talk about accidents like that was another accident
[01:05:17] so you know their critters are they have a difference between accidents and luck
[01:05:21] could you keep calling things accidents some of it sounds like it might be a little bit more
[01:05:27] luck some of it's luck that you made accidents I don't know I think I think what I'm trying to
[01:05:34] point out is that there wasn't a plan God not a plan at all I mean plan for me was just
[01:05:42] I like to told you all I wanted to be was a seal I had no idea no aspirations to be a
[01:05:48] physician to be an astronaut I just want one goal at a time that's really important to me
[01:05:53] even to this day that you have one singular goal because you should be all in and what you're doing
[01:06:01] you should be genuine in what you're doing not have some social climbing some some professional
[01:06:07] ladder that you're trying to meet these goals and be stepping stones and why I said accidents
[01:06:13] because I didn't want to be a corpsman in fact I wanted to be an intelligent specialist because
[01:06:19] the sounded cool or an operation I had no idea what an IS or an OS which is the rating for those
[01:06:27] to job didn't I just sounded cool but I would have shipped out later and I'm like I want to
[01:06:33] ship out as soon as I want to go away as soon as possible what's the rate that will get me there
[01:06:38] the fastest it's it's done you got to be a corpsman what's a corpsman well you do this stuff you
[01:06:43] did you you're a hospital stuff I don't want to do that don't like I want to be on the mission like
[01:06:49] if I like in the unlikely event I made it through I don't want to be the medic that doesn't
[01:06:54] get to do any cool stuff come to find out that's completely not true at all so that's why I say
[01:07:01] it's an accident plan it that way and after SKT seal qualification training I got sent to
[01:07:09] for brag to learn how to be a combat medic and then how long is that scroll that was six months
[01:07:16] and he never told you that this is where someone lied to you because whoever told you the
[01:07:19] fastest way to get to the teams is to be a corpsman was just wrong well I think for me I was okay
[01:07:26] with that because I had already I just wanted to get the but and you know fast as fast as fast
[01:07:32] way the buts was go corpsman the fast way to join the navy just to get like because I'm like
[01:07:38] it means talking on recruiters so I want to get out of here as soon as possible what do I need to do
[01:07:43] you need to be a corpsman okay I'll be a corpsman whatever figure it out later when you got to
[01:07:48] when you started doing 18 delta the the school the medic school did you start did you find it
[01:07:54] interesting were you kind of like wow this is cool absolutely I'm fascinated by anything that's
[01:07:59] challenging if it's engineering space medicine anything that challenges you it's fascinating like
[01:08:06] so I thought it was completely fascinating I loved I came to learn that medicine is pretty cool like
[01:08:11] and I took it seriously like though I didn't want to be the medic I understand the gravity of
[01:08:18] that that kind of honor that you are interested with the lives of your teammates that's a huge
[01:08:23] honor and I take it seriously so once the decision was made that I'm going to do that I was all in
[01:08:28] like I'm going to be the best medic I can be and being an 18 delta honestly those six months
[01:08:33] were more difficult than any time I had an uncle school because it's so much material crammed
[01:08:38] into six months on how to be a trauma combat medic and you learn a lot of skills I mean you learn
[01:08:43] how to do chest tubes which is a procedure that physicians train years through medical school
[01:08:51] and residency to learn how to do and you learn how to do that in six months crazy procedures life
[01:08:58] saving procedures and I had to give props and respect to the army because I think that they train
[01:09:07] the best medics really and I think that their culture surrounding combat medics is on point to maintain
[01:09:14] that currency so I had a great time at Fort Brakes on the best places to be stuck in but I had a
[01:09:21] great time learning from our army brothers and sisters yeah the the way that we train our medics
[01:09:28] and the the feats that they're able to perform on the battlefield are awesome keeping guys alive
[01:09:33] it's it's it's amazing did so you get done with that and for some reason
[01:09:43] you show up at sealed team three and what was sealed team three on deployment when you showed
[01:09:46] up or what was going on yeah somehow you ended up going to sniper school right I know
[01:09:50] which is totally ridiculous it is so for anybody that doesn't know if you're a new guy in the
[01:09:55] sealed teams you don't get to go to sniper school normally a guy's going one puttune maybe even
[01:10:01] two puttunes maybe even three puttunes before a guy gets the the honor of going to one of the most
[01:10:07] coveted schools in the sealed teams which is the sniper school it's a hard school but it's a
[01:10:14] call that everybody wants everyone wants to go to that school and somehow accidentally luckily
[01:10:21] whatever you want to call it you show up to team three and you go right to sniper school as a
[01:10:26] medic which is another school that everybody wants because it's a great quarks also and you can
[01:10:30] you've got an actual an actual marketable skill as a human being besides like hey I can walk
[01:10:37] point and shoot a machine gun that doesn't go get you anywhere but hey I can save people's lives
[01:10:42] that's a huge skill and you're getting two of the best skills that the that the seal team has to
[01:10:47] offer as a new guy undeservedly absolutely you know I change and I also change my viewpoint of
[01:10:55] medics because I didn't realize I was going through SKT tie woods I'm sure you know passed away
[01:11:03] he was one of my instructors in SKT and he's a medic he was a corpsman too and he was like dude don't
[01:11:08] you know that the medic always has to go on the mission it always gets to go always goes like
[01:11:13] what are you talking about what you don't want to be the medic so that changed my perspective on
[01:11:18] medicine in the teams because I just wanted to be a shooter like you know and no disrespect
[01:11:25] to the officers of the seal teams but I want to be the one pulling the trigger I wanted to
[01:11:29] want it to be in the deepest of the trenches I know you understand where I'm coming from because
[01:11:33] you were enlisted before you became an officer and I have no idea how I got snipers go I showed up
[01:11:41] team three was selling deployment and they're like new guy go to sniper school
[01:11:45] Roger that I will and for me you know I I I had you know I had an awareness of where I
[01:11:55] stood on the tone of play I knew his new guy I knew I was smaller statue and I just wanted to
[01:12:00] prove myself I was just so hungry to do a good job and so I knew sniper school is going to be
[01:12:07] hard but like man I'm not going I'll do everything to not fail this and bring this asset to
[01:12:12] the pitoon and I'm so thankful of whoever it was that allowed me to go to sniper school as
[01:12:18] the new guy before team three showed up from deployment how'd you do in sniper school I so it's like
[01:12:25] three I don't know how it is now it's three phases you know the first phase is like pay because
[01:12:29] like photographic image capture where you basically learn how to use a nestle lock camera to take
[01:12:34] facial recognition pictures basically for you know SR or special reconnaissance and that's all
[01:12:40] geek stuff like using computers setting up a network, sending you know sending pictures through
[01:12:46] radio waves I love that stuff and and that was came naturally to me the second part was scouting
[01:12:51] and scouting you also have to pass the you have to get a certain score on the rifle on the
[01:13:00] stocking the stocking and the rifle of course like you know 200 yard marine core test
[01:13:07] data penultin we would have to do which is a pretty hard test it's all iron sights and I
[01:13:12] never shot a gun I was gonna say that's why I was asking you this question because you know
[01:13:16] like I already said most people going to sniper school have at least one deployment if not two or three
[01:13:21] and you know you shoot thousands and thousands around every workup and deployment so you're improving
[01:13:26] your skills but you were coming right out of buds going to that with very you know with no experience
[01:13:31] yeah I mean you shoot very minimum you're like you don't know you don't learn how to be a sealant
[01:13:34] bud you just learn how to suffer and then you go to SKT and you get a little taste of what's
[01:13:39] like to learn some tactics but you don't really know anything still and you get to shoot a little
[01:13:43] bit but it's it's not that much so I didn't have that much and like I didn't grow up in a
[01:13:47] rural area where I had access to guns and so I didn't shoot I had very little shooting experience
[01:13:53] showing up to sniper school so that was hard and actually if I remember this correctly there was a
[01:14:00] point where I almost did not make it through because you had to get a certain score on the rifle
[01:14:07] but something clicked I mean if you just stick with the point to perform it's front sight focus
[01:14:12] body positioning fall through breathing they work yeah right and you just you you just I don't know
[01:14:23] if it's rounds or just perspective but eventually things clicked for me and I started to do
[01:14:30] actually pretty well in the shooting part and the stalking was also something I struggled with but once
[01:14:36] I learned the person the I just had to geek it out just kind of dissect what stalking is and
[01:14:44] all stalking is it's really too phase of it right you have dead space right so if what dead space is
[01:14:51] is if you know if you have a known observer you put a piece of earth between you and the observer
[01:14:58] line of sight that person cannot see you you could have a parade in that lane of dead space
[01:15:06] and you could just walk your merry way because stalking was a time revolution but it was also
[01:15:12] you had to get a certain qualification by certain amount of time if you had all day then it'd be a lot easier
[01:15:18] and obviously if you don't have dead space then you have to just have to learn the human
[01:15:22] physiology all it's like the human eye is attracted to movement especially a night
[01:15:27] so if you understand that and just slow your role be cautious be thoughtful at every step you take
[01:15:33] every movement be slow methodical with your stalking to get to that shooting position to take that
[01:15:40] shot the things become a lot easier and took me so that phase was was hard and I think I
[01:15:49] actually may have almost failed out if I remember correctly but I was able to get through
[01:15:53] and the last portion was the actual shooting portion and that came much better for me I think
[01:16:01] I learned those points performance and sticking with that and I loved the math behind
[01:16:09] shooting at long range and people think like how hard is you just put a redical on what you're trying
[01:16:15] to shoot and like that's not what the sniper is you very rarely are shooting by putting your
[01:16:21] redical on a target like yeah sure if you have the time to dial and click into your windage in your
[01:16:30] dope which is another word for elevation sure you put your redical on that and that's perfect
[01:16:36] great but in the real world there's changing winds there's moving targets and there are targets
[01:16:44] of opportunity that are not sighted into your two or 300 yards that your scope is at it might be a
[01:16:51] target that's 600 yards and you're doped in at 300 or target that's 100 yards and you're
[01:16:55] doped in at 300 so you have to learn these math problems like well if there's a left to right wind
[01:17:01] I know that and I have to aim to the person you know to the right side of the person's body
[01:17:08] or maybe it's an extreme wind so I'm gonna be more conservative even even further to left
[01:17:14] or the person is further than I'm doped in so I'm gonna make sure I'm aiming one or two
[01:17:19] body links higher than the person right it's a math problem and it's it's an art so I loved
[01:17:26] the geeky side of that so I mean I was all about it and I was I was so happy and so I felt so
[01:17:35] privileged to have to gain that skill set to bring back to my普通 so now you get done with that
[01:17:42] and that school actually overlap with the beginning of tasking a bruiser and a work up so
[01:17:47] you showed up late as a new guy to our desert training facility out in the Imperial Valley Desert
[01:17:56] and I actually remember when you showed up very very clearly and there's a backstory that I'm
[01:18:01] not sure you know about this so we're out there at the desert training facility and
[01:18:09] you know some of the more senior guys had hazed the shit out of some of the guys
[01:18:16] and I saw what's going on and they were doing they did some stuff that was like dumb and so I
[01:18:23] grabbed the chiefs and I was like hey guys I got a talk to you so it was the it was the two
[01:18:28] 普通 chiefs and and the the task unit senior to the vice-versa I was like hey guys got a
[01:18:34] talk to you we got side I was like listen guys I get it you guys need to tighten up this is
[01:18:41] bullshit you know like look I get what you're doing I get that this stuff takes place it's okay
[01:18:47] but if you're gonna be stupid about what you're doing we're all gonna get in trouble and it's
[01:18:52] gonna be a problem so tighten it up and don't only see this shit anymore and the guys are like
[01:18:57] hey Roger that I literally walk inside the compound or I walk back inside the building
[01:19:05] and you and you had showed up like while I was talking to those guys and you got welcomed to your
[01:19:10] tattooed by getting you know assaulted and your head partially shaved like they didn't do a good job
[01:19:20] and so I'm standing there and I come walking walking in and someone's like hey Kim go report to
[01:19:29] the commander you have no idea who I am but they they're like pointing at me and you look like you just
[01:19:34] I mean your eyes are freaking giant and you just look like you just walked into into the
[01:19:40] craziest things you've ever seen and you come walking ready you got a ball cap on and I'm looking
[01:19:46] at you and you're standing at a position of attention I mean it's just hilarious and and I'm looking at
[01:19:52] your hair and I can see that the guys have obviously just roughed you up and partially like
[01:19:59] shaved chunks out of your hair I do like serum on belly officer Kim or I'm HM3 Kim or HM2 Kim
[01:20:06] whenever you were I'm reporting on board and I was like hey bro nice to meet you man
[01:20:10] and just something really chill like that but that was pretty funny that's the backstory
[01:20:15] the guys meet just literally tighten them up and tell them not to be idiots and I walk in
[01:20:21] and four seconds later I'm meeting you and it looked like you just got slapped around and you're
[01:20:27] head shaved that's I have never heard that backstory yeah it's amazing yeah I got I got
[01:20:36] well cut that I think it was a mallet that I think I had a mallet that was given a mallet
[01:20:43] that's right because you had really long hair too coming out of sniper school and I would
[01:20:47] see you in a while oh yeah long hair they weren't gonna have no this is who is this new guy showing
[01:20:52] up long hair yeah not totally asked for it but you know so many emotions when you show up
[01:20:59] your petoni like a lot of guys I was just so hungry to be accepted to be a good job like
[01:21:05] look I can put out I'm gonna ask it like I want to be here because I want to be here
[01:21:11] and getting welcome like that was I I wanted that and it's a different world I feel like I was
[01:21:18] fortunate enough to see two sides of the Navy because that is certainly not at all condoning
[01:21:26] that behavior but it is what it is it is what it was and I've kind of at the cost where I got to
[01:21:33] see that side of the teams and I'm sure it's still those on but it's changed a little bit right
[01:21:38] but it changed a lot it was on a glide slope the whole time that I was in I mean when I first showed
[01:21:43] up to the teams it was it was dumb and out of control you know and what you know and just like
[01:21:48] what you're saying like there's parts where you go oh yeah that made sense and then there was
[01:21:52] other people that were just idiots and it was totally out of control and it needed to be tightened up
[01:21:57] and and I saw that glide slope the whole time I was in and you know it got to a point where
[01:22:02] which is what it was kind of like for us like hey idiots what are you doing if I'm the commander
[01:22:07] and I see what you idiots are doing you're wrong you know and don't be stupid and don't do
[01:22:12] things that you're going to get in trouble I mean just dumb stuff you know so there's you know
[01:22:19] unfortunately it's a hard thing to police because in order to police it you'd have to say okay
[01:22:25] you can do this but you can't do that hey when I when I first joined I was on a ship and we
[01:22:30] went across the the dam a quater and it was a you know you become a divvierver her to this
[01:22:35] you become a shell back yeah yeah so I did that it was one of the worst hazing sessions I ever
[01:22:40] had it was completely condoled by the entire U.S. Navy let's a shell back um someone that has
[01:22:47] been over the equator so if you if you've you've never crossed the equator then you then you're uh
[01:22:53] then you're uh what's it a walk I think it's a polywag or a wag but they call you a wag and then
[01:22:58] once you go across the the equator you go through this big ceremony which is just a big hazing session
[01:23:04] then you become a trusty shell back which is okay yeah and I mean they did everything that
[01:23:10] that would happen and like you know they were dunking their feeding crappy foods they were
[01:23:15] beating you with like um uh cut off fire hoses it was legit hazing yeah and of course
[01:23:23] some of that stuff you go okay I get it it's a tradition it's a welcome aboard like you said it's a
[01:23:27] welcome and of course there's people at our idiots that take too far and that's what you
[01:23:32] that's what you end up having to correct for you have to have end up having to correct for
[01:23:36] people that are stupid people that are sadistic people that don't have any common sense
[01:23:41] and it turns into a problem so yeah everything you said is on point I think you have to understand
[01:23:48] the we intent behind an action right if it's malicious which sometimes it turns malicious for some
[01:23:54] people that's not right now if it's a way to welcome someone aboard a field part of you know
[01:24:01] the brotherhood the sisterhood like welcome this is what it's like um I think the spirit of that is
[01:24:09] I understand the spirit of that but you're right it it requires people to be judicious to have
[01:24:17] to exercise good common sense and unfortunately that doesn't always happen yeah and the blanket
[01:24:23] thing that happens in a big organization like the Navy is they okay look we we don't know how to
[01:24:28] we don't know how to judiciously do this we don't want to put regulations around it so we're not
[01:24:31] doing it anymore and you know that was actually one of the worst things that used to happen if there
[01:24:36] was a guy that people that that a platoon sort of rejected like an organ rejection where you know you
[01:24:44] get a kidney transplant and your body can reject it sometimes that happens in a platoon and and what
[01:24:50] would happen it wouldn't it be the opposite it'd be like that guy's not getting hazed he's not
[01:24:55] getting you know rassed by the troops people aren't making fun of him for this that or the other thing
[01:25:01] that's when you that's when you know a guy's a real problem is when he's actually so far outside
[01:25:05] that's spectrum that they go you know what we don't even we don't even want to we don't even want to
[01:25:10] do that with this guy because he's not one of us and we don't want him as part of the team
[01:25:13] wise words I've always heard that I believe it if if you weren't getting rattle if you weren't
[01:25:21] being made fun of then people didn't like you and that's just the coach I think it's hard for
[01:25:26] people outside of that community to understand why we were so hard in each other and why it was
[01:25:33] born out of love it really is it's a a lot of those actions and you just the way we conducted ourselves
[01:25:41] and I mean some of the people closest friends we were just you know just dog on each other all the
[01:25:48] time to this day yeah it's it's a it's a I guess weird environment to grow up and because I'm like
[01:25:55] you like I joined the Navy when I was 18 and that's what you that's what you you just go into this
[01:26:01] environment and it's just like you're saying when I got into that environment I was like this is so
[01:26:07] awesome this is the coolest thing ever this is the people I want to be around with forever and yeah
[01:26:13] you know what if you got out of line you would get tightened up you would get tightened up and you know
[01:26:18] that's something I I've talked about is like in task unit bruiser I'm the commander of task
[01:26:24] in bruiser the amount of times that I personally had to tighten up a guy for being late was zero
[01:26:31] the amount of times I had to personally tighten up a guy for forgetting his gear was zero
[01:26:35] the amount of times I had to tighten someone up for being out of uniform was zero because the
[01:26:39] freaking gang took care of that and the gang was gonna make sure that we were square it away
[01:26:43] and and that's what that mentality is kind of like it's kind of like a gang mentality as it should be
[01:26:50] in that respect yeah yeah um but that was your welcome aboard was that was um funny so and so
[01:26:59] then all of a sudden you're you're dropped into the middle of work up and now you see the
[01:27:05] now you see what now you see what actually being a seal is about is lilies like now
[01:27:10] that that first trip mm-hmm did it meet your expectations it did absolutely and and exceeded
[01:27:18] what expectations I had no I didn't have a benchmark of what a normal put tune was and actually
[01:27:27] I think I just kind of thought all let me let me back up a bit what I've done to the teams
[01:27:35] is a drop in the bucket compared to what you've done and what a lot of our brothers have done
[01:27:42] you know I've got friends who've done ten plus deployments to take that one step further
[01:27:46] you say what you've done in the teams is a drop in the bucket compared to me which is not
[01:27:50] completely accurate but even if you accept that fact what I've done in the teams is a drop in the
[01:27:55] bucket compared to other guys that were in in longer time better time more extreme situations
[01:28:04] so yes it goes without saying that both of us look man we I mean for me I did what I could do
[01:28:11] while I was in you did what you could do while you were in but goes it doesn't go without saying
[01:28:16] we're both saying it what we did in the teams it was a fraction a little miniscule compared to
[01:28:22] you first of all the teams as a whole and second of all plenty of individuals who are way better
[01:28:29] waste martyr did ten times the deployments that you and I did which is crazy to think about
[01:28:34] but that's what happens so yes in that extent the other services like arm marine
[01:28:41] core brothers and sisters for sure armies holders air force I mean just drop in the bucket but
[01:28:47] in that context I didn't know what a like a normal but tuned was so I kind of thought all
[01:28:53] put tunes were like Charlie Pintune a task in a bruiser and I've come to realize later on
[01:28:58] that we were maybe a little more aggressive than the average man the average task unit
[01:29:04] but I loved it and that's I was finally in the situation that I wanted to do
[01:29:10] that I felt a calling to when I was growing up in my adolescent years that I felt I was born to
[01:29:16] do and for the first time I felt accepted I never felt accepted growing up not even
[01:29:28] sure I had friends and you know I went to a Korean church and I had some Korean friends
[01:29:35] from my parents but in a lot of ways I was always felt in between worlds and that had an impact
[01:29:41] on me like I didn't really feel well accepted by the by in a lot of ways the Korean American
[01:29:49] community because I was I remember just being teased just because I was like too white
[01:29:56] I think one time I had I had skateboarding shoes when I went like my Korean church and I just got
[01:30:02] made fun of it for and I just you know so I just just kind of funny to think about and I think
[01:30:08] it just laughed at all like it's just ridiculous but when you're a kid and that's your world
[01:30:13] it means a lot so I never felt like I was accepted to a group until I was in the teams
[01:30:21] and I was for the first time I was home and I loved it.
[01:30:30] I you know I had to go to college in the middle of my co-career and I was talking to a professor
[01:30:37] and my professor I was saying to this professor well you know I just can't wait I was just kind
[01:30:44] of finished this course because I so I can get back to the teams and the guy was looking at me
[01:30:48] like I was completely insane like I was completely crazy because the war had started and I'm saying
[01:30:54] I just want to get this so I can get out of here so I can go back to the teams and he's looking at me
[01:30:58] like I'm literally like I'm crazy and he says like whoa like don't you like going to school
[01:31:06] and when you rather just stay here next to two semesters and and you know just go to classes and
[01:31:10] run and I was like oh I said I would leave right now if the Navy would let me I would leave right
[01:31:16] now with no degree I don't care about this and he's like why it was incomprehensible to him and I
[01:31:23] sat there and I looked at him and I said and it sounds really freaking horrible to say this I guess
[01:31:28] if you put it in the in the view of identity politics but I look at him and I go because in the
[01:31:34] teams everyone's like me and I don't mean it that they're like me that they're that they're white
[01:31:41] males I mean they're like me and it doesn't matter what background they come from it doesn't
[01:31:47] matter if they're Korean or Mexican or black or white it doesn't matter they're like me they're
[01:31:53] think they're gonna laugh at the same stupid jokes they're gonna they're gonna throw daggers at me
[01:31:58] that I'm gonna expect to be able to deal with I'm gonna throw daggers back at them that's and
[01:32:02] if things get escalated they can get out of control and they'll get we'll go toe to toe that's
[01:32:07] what happens in the teams and then we'll shake hands and have a beer and so that feeling of
[01:32:13] when you get to a platoon and you're like oh thank you world because now you put me with these other
[01:32:21] dudes and they're like me and we can take we can take on it's us against the world
[01:32:27] that's a damn good fuel it's a brotherhood and it's hard to articulate that feeling that you
[01:32:34] described but for all those things you said yes so let's talk a little bit more about work up
[01:32:42] and you know the desert training to me there's no better way to start off a work up than going through
[01:32:49] that desert training it's hard it was August it was 120 degrees outside it was brutal we were
[01:32:58] thirsty we were tired and we were getting after it there's nothing lankin I think my I clearly
[01:33:08] remember that first night and they were like let's go in a little patrol little shake out patrol
[01:33:14] shake out patrol and this so guys like all right I'll maybe bring a cantine I'll bring a leader maybe
[01:33:22] half of this camel back well maybe he's won't bring anything I'll be good and the shake out patrol
[01:33:29] became like an all night patrol of just marching through in this heat and it's nighttime but it's
[01:33:37] still sweltering hot and I remember folks just running out of water
[01:33:42] rare here early on I think Ryan Joe I don't even know if you brought any water and just
[01:33:47] suffering through it but things like that stick with you that kind of mutual suffering and
[01:33:56] hardship I I'm a firm believer that hard shared hardship and suffering is one of the best ways
[01:34:07] to bring people together towards a common goal to break down barriers to form
[01:34:13] and brought a sisterhood whatever you want to call it yeah that's that's that's what the team
[01:34:20] does and it's as you mentioned earlier it's not just what the team does every military unit when you
[01:34:26] go through boot camp in the navy okay maybe it's a different kind of hardship but there's a sleep
[01:34:33] deprivation there's a weird food scenario going on there's tasks that have to be done
[01:34:38] there's hammer sessions that take place like all those things they're unifying you and then you
[01:34:43] go to the next step and you get unified tighter and then you go to the next you go to budge you get unified
[01:34:47] tighter then you can show up in a sealed pitoon and now you're going through a hard work up and you're
[01:34:51] going to get unified even tighter and it's awesome do you um we rolled from there other I mean
[01:35:00] other aspects of work up was there anything that you were nervous about going through work up
[01:35:05] because you were and and I was going to say this earlier you know you said that you were a
[01:35:09] gray man going through buds meaning that you weren't great at anything but you weren't horrible
[01:35:12] anything and that was exactly the same way I was I wasn't great anything it wasn't horrible at
[01:35:16] anything I made it through in one shot because I wasn't I guess it wasn't as good as you but I
[01:35:23] because I failed I failed a little bit of everything but not enough of anything to get me rolled
[01:35:28] off so I've met a bit on the the the the Saturn or weaker side of the gray man but work up
[01:35:38] you you know as the as the guy that was running it the only people that kind of
[01:35:45] that showed up on my radar a lot where people that were having problems and you
[01:35:50] didn't show up on radar as having problems you were pretty much could do everything
[01:35:53] I mean what I appreciated about the teams was that it was a true meritocracy you got out of it
[01:36:03] what you put in and my original fears of being the menic of being boxed into just that
[01:36:09] responsibility because I wanted to do more I wanted to be the best asset I could be to my
[01:36:14] patreon to to my brothers and I quickly fell under the mentorship of many other people on the
[01:36:21] batoon Chris Cal was the primary sniper navigator point man and new guys kind of get
[01:36:29] matched up to a person he was the person I got matched up to because I would eventually be
[01:36:33] groomed to take on his responsibilities so early on I got tasked with being like the assistant lead
[01:36:41] now and point man and sniper which eventually got to take on these roles more a primary
[01:36:51] leader and workup and also on the point man so that meant that responsibility meant so much to me
[01:36:58] and I wanted to practice and train and wake up early and make sure just because I didn't want to
[01:37:05] mess it up not for myself but because I felt I owed and I did owe that responsibility
[01:37:15] of doing a good job to my patreon yeah I don't know that there's any greater people talk
[01:37:20] about motivation I don't know that there's any greater motivation is then I don't want to let my
[01:37:25] guys down and whether that's hey I don't look I know the entire patrol is following me as the
[01:37:32] point man or as the lead nav and if I mess this up I'm taking the whole patrol with me to be clear
[01:37:38] I messed up plenty of times I might in my pothole let me know about it I messed up plenty of times
[01:37:46] but still just trying that never ending pursuit to be better and to accept responsibility for your
[01:37:53] failures and promise you will do better that's what the workup is and you know we had a we had a
[01:38:00] great workup we went hard and in that workup and eventually we completed the workup we
[01:38:11] and we got ready we already go on deployment and you guys actually went on leave I don't know
[01:38:16] if you remember this we were going we were deploying to Baghdad that was the plan and we I had
[01:38:21] actually gone with a couple of the guys on pre-deployment site survey and checked out where we were
[01:38:26] going to be deploying to in Baghdad we were going to be doing you know basic direct action missions
[01:38:32] catching bad guys and pretty straightforward in that in that Baghdad area pretty straightforward
[01:38:40] deployment was what we were heading for and everyone went on leave and during that leave period
[01:38:47] I got called in and I actually don't even know if I took leave but I was at work and our boss
[01:38:54] our commanding officer you know called me in and said hey you guys aren't going to go to Baghdad anymore
[01:38:59] and actually he asked me like hey we're thinking about shifting things around how would you feel
[01:39:05] about going to Romani and I knew it was going on to Romani we don't well on if we all knew but I
[01:39:14] definitely knew it was going to Romani I knew how bad it was I knew it was the area where the most
[01:39:21] enemy was and where the most enemy contact was and where if we were going to fight that would be
[01:39:27] the place to go and you know what I talked to him and said yeah well we can make those adjustments
[01:39:32] and by the time you guys came back and off a leave we were we were then going to Romani
[01:39:39] yeah that decision making was that was not a were of that you know I was happy being just
[01:39:47] an E5 shooter and I do remember that yeah I can back and leave we're going to Romani
[01:39:53] place that I hadn't heard yeah I was going to say did you even know the difference were you
[01:39:57] just like whatever going to Iraq I'm happy yeah I mean I was 21 22 and I want to think about
[01:40:06] I was just a kid like what I know now based on what I knew back then it's just crazy
[01:40:12] yeah to me I don't think that was I don't think I was aware as aware I knew it was a bad place
[01:40:21] I don't think I was not to the same level as you of what was going on the the say gax going on
[01:40:27] at that time yeah I was I guess I was probably playing paying more attention
[01:40:35] to what was going on there and actually Romani had been really bad for a while
[01:40:41] for for a pretty good chunk of time but it wasn't like the seal task you know that was there
[01:40:49] was really getting after what they didn't look that extraordinary compared to any other
[01:40:57] tasking that that wasn't Iraq at the time so but I I knew it was going to be pretty
[01:41:05] gnarly going over there and and I also knew that if anyone would be able to do a good job there
[01:41:16] I knew that we could do a good job there as a tasking it because we had worked really hard
[01:41:22] we were firing on all cylinders as you said we were a we were an aggressive tasking it
[01:41:29] for sure and I knew it would be a good environment for us to go into and one of the things that
[01:41:38] we were getting ready to leave and the Commodore who's a fantastic guy ended up at Admiral and
[01:41:45] and he I had worked for him and I had a great relationship with him he's a fantastic guy but he
[01:41:50] came to debrief or to brief all of seal team three before he went on deployment and he said
[01:41:56] something along the lines of listen no one in this room is going to shoot their guns on this
[01:42:02] deployment or he said something maybe not quite that extremely something like chances are
[01:42:09] there's no one in this room that's going to shoot their guns on this deployment and you know this
[01:42:13] is just the things are a little less kinetic so we rolled over there and need this to say
[01:42:20] within the first I would say 24 hours at the whole that the whole tasking was there the
[01:42:26] base our little base got attacked and the entire task unit including some of the texts
[01:42:32] were up on the rooftop returning fire and a few days later that Commodore showed up and I you
[01:42:39] know I gave him a hard time I said hey sir you know you said no one was going to shoot their weapons
[01:42:43] and I said this entire task unit and most of the texts I've actually gave to the enemy at this time
[01:42:48] so that was a little welcome aboard I remember that night it was a good welcome and I remember
[01:42:53] some of the texts going through like six mags like the first couple minutes and like let's slow our
[01:42:59] roll down but yeah it was a good I think it became very clear the situation we found ourselves
[01:43:07] and and I agree I think we were as prepared as we could have been for that situation
[01:43:13] then what how long did it take you after being on the ground what was the first what was the
[01:43:20] first op you did it was the DA the the kind of one this is the one life and I joke about because
[01:43:26] the life was like life is like we're not going to be ready we're we should roll it we shouldn't do it
[01:43:32] and you know we've you know we've him and I've talked about this on the podcast I think which was
[01:43:38] I was like bro it's gonna be okay you got this and he was like he was nervous man because it was
[01:43:44] this is first op in Ramadi there's mayhem going on and you know I just I just looked at him
[01:43:51] and said bro you got this is not gonna be that hard and he was like Roger and you know he sucked it up
[01:43:57] and you guys went and executed the op no big deal you know no factor but it was surely
[01:44:04] thereafter that I started looking at a different strategy besides just doing DAs and moving
[01:44:10] more towards these overwatches and then we kind of started moving in that direction didn't take
[01:44:16] very long the brigade commander like almost out of the gate asked for our support in areas that
[01:44:25] were being heavily ID where we could go out and start introducing people that were putting in IDs
[01:44:31] what was that like for you from your perspective as a new guy what was your just tell people
[01:44:39] about your job what what that was like yeah so I early on in the deployment I was we had a lot of
[01:44:50] snipers you know and and the way the team's works and I'm sure you've said on previous podcasts
[01:44:56] everyone has multiple jobs we overlap responsibilities and so many ways we have you know half
[01:45:02] of the guys might be breachers so anyone can put an example in a slap and explosive on the door
[01:45:07] and and use the right one the appropriate one to get through to gain access to a building
[01:45:12] you know have you know a quarter of the guys our snipers so we cross we were able to fill in
[01:45:18] each other's roles and early on I was the assistant point man and navigator
[01:45:24] and one one of the snipers and of course the medic and at the time it was Chris leading a lot of
[01:45:33] those so it's learning from him how to as an navigator you're responsible for coming up with
[01:45:39] a ideal but safe route to your destination and you don't realize it at the time because you
[01:45:50] know you're just e4 e5 at the time just going through you think it's normal but that's so much
[01:45:55] responsibility to be able to come up with a plan on your own to review the cigarettes hey you know
[01:46:02] intersection I think it was two nine three two nine three which would have like double digit
[01:46:10] cigarettes a day and we're realizing hey what's probably go a different way or go through this
[01:46:17] alleyway and reviewing the satellite imagery to see and understanding and trying to go through
[01:46:25] do like a dirt dive which is just space was just planning the route in your head and seeing
[01:46:32] what kind of obstacles you might see or landmarks because GPS wasn't super reliable at the time
[01:46:39] especially since we had jammers you'll want on 24 seven so that people couldn't remotely
[01:46:44] detonate ideas we'd try and jam all all frequencies so a lot of times you didn't have GPS so
[01:46:50] you need to know the route cold and then as a point man being able to take to dismount safely
[01:46:59] and then guide your platoon to the target on foot and that also takes careful route
[01:47:06] planning careful route study and making sure you get the right target because I mean you can have
[01:47:13] pretty bad consequences when you hit the right hit the wrong target and of course your shooter just
[01:47:22] like everyone everyone's a shooter from the lowest and listed to the OIC is a shooter is responsible
[01:47:28] for their lanes for engaging the enemy for a turning fire for being a shooter and once you're on
[01:47:35] target if this is happens to be an overwatch we'd set up the night before and set up sniper
[01:47:42] overwatch positions so that we had good observations of different angles different lanes that the
[01:47:51] enemy might try and use to attack us or worse attack our brethren our army and marine corps
[01:48:01] brothers and sisters who might be doing a route clearance or might be doing a patrol
[01:48:06] and that's just like one flavor of the many different types of missions that we did
[01:48:10] you know we talked about DA direct action missions those were a little more direct you know you
[01:48:16] probably just drive up this and require as much I guess you know trying to be as seraptitious
[01:48:24] it's kind of going in loud you're not feeling anyone you're going loud aggressive hard
[01:48:29] and it's just a different flavor of a mission and those were just kind of an idea of the kinds of
[01:48:37] things that I did and a lot of our petrified mates did how do you like working with Chris
[01:48:44] I learned a lot from Chris it was you need to use a hard teacher but I learned a lot of
[01:48:53] important lessons from that and I feel like I I've been fortunate to have a lot of
[01:49:02] teachers and mentors role models along the way throughout life the life is certainly one
[01:49:10] high school teachers you know medical school at NASA my current job and just trying to take a
[01:49:17] little bit of what they teach you those pearls and incorporate into your own style to what works for you
[01:49:24] and certainly with Chris I had a lot of those pearls that I learned to help me become a better operator
[01:49:30] and a better leader now as you're doing these missions and you know it was there there was a lot of
[01:49:46] a lot of violence happening a lot of violence happening our army and Marine Corps brothers
[01:49:53] were getting wounded almost wounded or killed almost on a daily basis the amount of
[01:50:03] enemy attacks was basically almost 24 hours a day there were enemy attacks happening inside the city
[01:50:10] there were massive IDs that were just sickening you know you could hear them you to hear them
[01:50:17] on base go off or for your out and town you could hear them go off and you know that when they went off
[01:50:23] there was there was wounded and mutilated and maimed and killed Americans I mean every single
[01:50:28] time you'd hear one of those it would you make me cringe as you continued to roll out
[01:50:40] you know day after day what was your what was your mindset you know I've talked to
[01:50:45] a lot of combat vets and and right down to one of the guys that I had on named Dean Lad
[01:50:53] who was the Marine in World War II who was gut shot walking to the beach in Tahrua this is
[01:51:01] after he did Ewo I mean just a or Guadalcanal and you know I was talking to him about it he's like
[01:51:06] I never thought it would happen to me that was kind of what cleared his mind but those guys
[01:51:16] I mean it's a different type of combat where look you're they're gonna do this this assault
[01:51:22] and it's gonna last two three four days before they get to kind of settle in they had less time to
[01:51:28] think about it without a doubt they had less time to think about it they weren't coming back to
[01:51:32] a base like we were where you're relatively safe and then you got to reload and go back again
[01:51:40] how did that play outside 21 year old Johnny Kim's mind yeah and I don't think I've ever been asked
[01:51:48] not that it's a pretty insightful question and I don't think I've asked other people
[01:51:54] what mental calculus what things they needed to go through to prepare themselves for these
[01:52:05] for these challenges I know what I did and what worked for me and I don't doubt I don't know
[01:52:12] if it works for other people or if that's what other people did but I mean I don't I have no
[01:52:18] qualms saying but when I showed up to Iraq I was scared I mean my first deployment and on your
[01:52:27] first deployment to a war zone I don't know if other people but I was in the frame like oh
[01:52:32] as soon as I step off this bird into country I'm gonna get shot at which is not at all the case
[01:52:38] right um there's varying levels of intensity in the war right I mean there were some
[01:52:45] bases where you had Taco Bell and pizza Hut right and then you had like the sticks where
[01:52:52] Marines were rough in it and sleeping in holes and they ground um that look like graves and so
[01:52:59] they were I think varying experiences and you know for me I quickly learned my first big firefight
[01:53:12] um was I'm sure you remember this but it was an unfortunate blue on blue or blue one green
[01:53:24] incident and that was a big wakeup call to me and I'm sure we could talk a length about that
[01:53:32] a lot of lessons learned from it but I quickly learned that the mental
[01:53:37] preparation I needed to do for myself was to assume I was going to die that I was already dead
[01:53:49] and I was there to fulfill my role in the pituit as a shooter and that was liberating for me
[01:53:59] it was hard to get in that frame of mind but once you got in that frame of mind
[01:54:03] for me it was easier to stay in that frame of mind kind of like how when I was cold and
[01:54:10] buds I wanted to stay cold so there were guys who would take a warm shower if you had the
[01:54:14] opportunity to but for me I wanted to stay uncomfortable because being comfortable being uncomfortable
[01:54:23] is an important trait and once I was able to reconcile that I wasn't going to come home that I was
[01:54:33] going to die it freed me to be able to do my job without the human emotion that can be very
[01:54:42] disabling of which is fear and I think it made me more clear of mind and focused and I think it
[01:54:55] made me a better operator but I don't know if that works for everyone and I don't think that is also
[01:55:02] a very healthy way healthy state of mind to stay in for long periods of time I think you need to learn
[01:55:08] how to decompress and learn how to switch things on and off and have space in your brain
[01:55:17] compartmentalized spaces where you can put very bad emotions or very disabling emotions away
[01:55:24] so that you can do your job at hand that's what seemed to work for me
[01:55:31] yeah I think that's a common add to that know that as 100% what my add to it was was okay you know this
[01:55:39] is what I'm going to do and I'm going to keep doing it and there's a chance I'm going to die and
[01:55:47] that's the way it is and if it happens then that happens but I think what makes it feel
[01:55:54] liberating slash good is that any concern let's face it you can do everything right you can
[01:56:04] plan the perfect route you can manipulate your weapon perfectly you can maneuver through the
[01:56:09] streets perfectly you can still get killed whether you can get shot whether you get blown up like
[01:56:13] it can happen and if if if you're worried about things that you can control that you're wasting
[01:56:18] energy and you're not providing the correct support to the rest of your guys because you're
[01:56:22] freaked out about what's going to happen to you and that's why I think that's pretty common actually
[01:56:29] is okay look here's the risk and now I'm going to put that in a box over here I'm not going
[01:56:34] to worry about it anymore because it doesn't do me or my team any good now this is where I think the
[01:56:43] well from a leadership perspective and then from a medic slash corpsman perspective
[01:56:48] the most absolute anxiety that I had the sick twisting gut that I would have
[01:56:56] wouldn't be at all from me getting blown up or me getting shot or me getting killed or anything
[01:57:00] happened to me it was a hundred percent because of you guys and and it was impossible to not
[01:57:12] it was impossible for me to not think that if you guys were rolling out or not or Delta was
[01:57:19] rolling out or opera whoever was rolling out that there was a chance look if it's not happening tonight
[01:57:28] it's going to happen tomorrow if it doesn't happen tomorrow and I deal happen in two weeks I know
[01:57:32] one of these nights the call is going to come on the radio and I know what the call is going to be
[01:57:38] I know what the call is going to be and there's it was like and again I don't want to sound fatalistic
[01:57:43] about this because I didn't think about it in a way I didn't think about it like hey throw
[01:57:49] caution when this is going to happen anyways it wasn't like that at all it was like reality
[01:57:56] the reality was you know the reality was I'm talking to the brigade commander every day I'm
[01:58:04] talking to the Italian commanders every day I know what to go on out there in some cases I'm
[01:58:10] tracking it you know by the hour and so that in my gut was the hardest was the most was the hardest
[01:58:21] thing that I had to deal with was just man just being worried about you guys that was it
[01:58:28] and I can only imagine for you as a medic same thing like you know hey you can't trade
[01:58:39] bullets with bad guys every single day you can't walk down these streets every single day
[01:58:47] and get away with it for the whole time it's just not very likely the only thing stronger than
[01:58:55] fear for self for us was fear of letting your petunate down or fear of getting your friends killed
[01:59:06] that to me is the greatest fear of all and I agree with you when if you accept that
[01:59:17] you may die you may not come home your friends may not come home it's not being complacent about it
[01:59:27] it's not being okay well I thought of my hands I'm not no you're gonna do your best you will not
[01:59:34] get complacent you will remain hard to kill you will be effective in your job but you understand
[01:59:42] the risks of the work you have ahead of you and you you accept those risks so you are free to be
[01:59:54] effective in your job so I would say that everybody I would say that we all kind of knew that the
[02:00:23] day would come and like you said I mean it wasn't a wasn't fatalistic it wasn't complacency
[02:00:36] it was the realistic assessment of where we were at and I think everybody knew that the day
[02:00:45] would come and maybe if someone says they didn't it's only because they were you know able to
[02:00:51] convince themselves that to you know to keep a positive attitude and the day did come
[02:01:05] and we'd had a couple guys get wounded you know Cowley was wounded bad
[02:01:12] a lot of clothes calls innumerable countless clothes calls which in a way kind of make you feel like
[02:01:25] maybe we can pull this off but in the end it's it's it's it's war
[02:01:34] so
[02:01:46] what did that duty you August 2 2006
[02:01:50] hard to articulate in words what that day did I talked a little bit in the
[02:02:12] beginning of how my father has shaped my actions to become the seal well I'd say the events that unfolded
[02:02:20] on August 2 2006 and days afterwards where we lost much better warriors than I much
[02:02:31] braver and selfless that the hoses were much more formative in shaping what I do and will do for the rest of my life
[02:02:47] you know we lost the actions of that day we lost two really good man
[02:02:51] um I don't even know where to start you know one of my good friends one of our good
[02:03:08] friends Ryan Joe was hitting the face God I learned a lot that day
[02:03:14] I think we all I think we all did and a piece of us stayed there that day died with us you know Ryan was
[02:03:29] was hitting the face um yeah and I remember going single cracks are usually not good
[02:03:46] the crack you know in the crack when I say crack I mean um when you were on the giving end of a rifle
[02:03:54] you it's a much different sound than being on the receiving end of a rifle that of a bullet that's
[02:03:59] supersonic it makes a very distinctive crack and when you hear that and it's single one it
[02:04:08] generally is not good and I remember that radio call coming out from life saying that Ryan had been hit
[02:04:16] and that I was needed um whatever going to the roof and seeing Ryan lying down and a pull of his
[02:04:26] blood and uh there's these images in my head that just have so much human compassion
[02:04:35] in a crazy chaotic time and I remember life in Chris at a side and life as holding his hat
[02:04:44] holding his hand and just saying just hang on brother we just hang on me up
[02:04:51] and uh I did the best I could to stabilize Ryan but Ryan just Ryan's a trooper I mean he's he was the
[02:04:58] best of us um even then not concerned about his own welfare I'm making sure that we were safe we were
[02:05:05] being safe and staying low um and we had Mark was there laying down some good covering fire to
[02:05:15] get Ryan out of that position and I like um we called on our brothers from the army um to
[02:05:28] bring us the armor we needed to get out of there and I'm very grateful for that
[02:05:33] uh so I accompanied Ryan out of there and there's not much you can do as a medic in that
[02:05:42] situation I'm not keeping Ryan alive I'm keeping his airway open stop in the bleeding and that's
[02:05:48] it he's keeping himself alive and the definitive care he needed was a surgeon he needed to get
[02:05:54] to an operating table stat and we talked about things learned from that day failures I had one of
[02:06:05] my biggest failures from that day and it pains me to this day because Ryan didn't see it that way
[02:06:14] we stopped off at one of the aid stations I think at Cop Falcon a lot on the way
[02:06:20] which just a paint this room it was a concrete 20 feet by 20 feet room with no electricity no
[02:06:29] running water definitely not a place to get definitive care and it was being manned by you know
[02:06:40] for army physicians assistant um who I think had the best of intentions but had other
[02:06:53] clouding human emotions that resulted in poor judgment one being ego just perhaps the biggest
[02:07:05] poison of all and anything we do and just to give you an idea of this I mean it was a war zone
[02:07:14] down there I mean just a few days prior to that we had been moored in that area and a few army soldiers
[02:07:21] were hit by this mortar bad and we were pretty close in our in Cop Falcon and I went over to try and
[02:07:31] help and some of these guys were pretty hypervillemic which is a word for saying they were low on
[02:07:38] blood volume because they were losing it and I was trying to get IV access on one of these guys and I
[02:07:44] had a hard time doing it eventually was able to get a jug sticking in the neck but this the guy who
[02:07:54] was manning at the so-for was you know just giving me a hard time about it which it's fine I think we
[02:08:03] give each other a hard time we make fun of each other but I think I mean I took it hard myself because
[02:08:08] I like me and I really wanted to help these guys and I was failing and giving getting this line in
[02:08:13] and I be lying in and I was naive and just just I think insecure I was professionally embarrassed
[02:08:25] that I could not get this line in and so I know it was a little intimidated by this guy so I had
[02:08:31] that painting of this situation with this relationship with this person and coming in I knew that
[02:08:37] coming into this aid station at Cop Falcon was only gonna hurt Ryan and I was yelling at the army
[02:08:42] guys and I mean you want to you know E2 drivers we're just doing what they were told I'm like we need to go
[02:08:48] to camp her body right now to get to an OR and they were telling me we need to stop by this aid we
[02:08:55] have orders to stop off of this aid station and Ryan's on this cot and I mean there's no way to get
[02:09:04] definitive care you can't even be sterile in this area I mean this is a concrete room with
[02:09:09] no electricity and he was trying to give a nasal fair out an MPA nasal fair and geol airway
[02:09:16] to Ryan which is a little remember the trumpet nose you put in you know keeps an airway secure
[02:09:23] but you never ever give an MPA to folks listening to this who have any kind of medical background
[02:09:31] you would never give an MPA to someone with suspected facial with suspected mapsilare fractures which is
[02:09:37] what Ryan certainly had had to be shot through the left cheek right around around the left orbit
[02:09:46] and I was top of my lungs arguing with this guy this is not what he needed like you should not do
[02:09:54] that we needed to get to camp her body and there was a certain power differential right I mean
[02:10:00] I was E5 21 22 old kid and I had this O4 who was telling me how things should be done and Ryan's there
[02:10:11] hearing all this and I like a lot of army regulations I'm not trying to
[02:10:22] give any disrespect to the army but the two drivers who drove me there were like you need
[02:10:30] to clear and save your weapon and you know if you remember there's always a barrel outside of
[02:10:35] every building of the clearance safe it I understand because there's a lot of accidents and all
[02:10:39] this charge that happened in the military but for teen guys I think that's like clearing your
[02:10:45] having to point your weapon in a barrel the clearance safe it is not really you don't need to
[02:10:49] do that we just clearance safe in the safe direction right just be responsible have
[02:10:53] accountability for muscle awareness and what you're doing is like and I was trying to fight this
[02:10:59] fight with this with this PA and the other army soldiers were trying to like you need to
[02:11:05] you need to go inside right now and clear the weapon so frustrated I left clear my weapon to came back
[02:11:10] and PA hit and turned the PA's right and Ryan was coughing up blood and bad and I saw the look
[02:11:20] on this PA's face that he I think he recognized that this was outside his scope of abilities
[02:11:30] and that he was in over his head and may have hurt Ryan and from there my request to get to
[02:11:39] camp Ramon he was immediately fulfilled and we got back in the load Ryan and got Ryan to
[02:11:45] camp Ramon to the appropriate level of care to awaiting surgeons doctors to take care of Ryan
[02:11:53] but to me that's one of my biggest failures because I let Ryan down and what PA
[02:12:01] intemies that in the years afterwards he always thanked me that I stood up for him and Ryan I
[02:12:10] I don't know why you're thanking me I failed you I could have done something more I could have
[02:12:21] could have stood up for my friend a little bit more I could have
[02:12:24] I don't know what I could have done but I could have done something he Ryan deserved better
[02:12:34] and who knows what this did I mean Ryan was blind as you know afterwards but he says I was the last
[02:12:42] person he saw he wishes I was a little prettier Ryan lightly became blind secondary to infections
[02:12:53] swelling trauma but maybe that was the final straw that made him blind and eventually led to him
[02:13:05] getting all those surgeries which eventually took his life as you know he had multiple surgeries
[02:13:09] and one of his surgeries he was unfortunately taken from us I don't know but I made a promise
[02:13:19] after that that regardless of my rank of where I stood or of what kind of power differential I was
[02:13:25] if I saw something wrong like that and I knew someone would get hurt that I would stand up and
[02:13:32] speak and not let something like that ever happen again we see things happen all the time that we
[02:13:46] know aren't right you know a lot you sometimes you just know deep down that that's not right and you
[02:13:51] choose your battles I think it's important to choose what battles you stand up more
[02:13:56] whether there are some battles that you should never ever stand down and I swore I would never make
[02:14:02] that mistake again and then find a very relevant today I mean we accept the risks of our occupation
[02:14:12] for the greater good of what it does for society our country our species and it's relevant in
[02:14:23] space exploration in NASA what I've been honored and privileged to take part of and we accept
[02:14:30] the risks of what we are trying to do for the general good what it brings back to humanity
[02:14:37] but I think having that experience to know it's worth cashing in that currency that reputation
[02:14:47] you've built up to speak up one something is up one something is messed up
[02:14:53] to one of the I feel like we could talk about that day for the rest of the I think we could
[02:15:00] talk about August thinking for the rest of the day but all the other things and that's just the first
[02:15:07] chapter of what happened that day as you know we lost markedly on that day those
[02:15:21] lot of what I do today I made a promise to not just those to not just to mark and Ryan but
[02:15:28] I can I can list along listen names of people we've lost since then that we that the void
[02:15:38] created by those warriors that would certainly have done good for this world that I owe it that we
[02:15:48] owe it to them to be a positive mark in this world and that can take many forms for me
[02:15:56] that was why I wanted to be a physician it didn't really matter that it was medicine and it
[02:16:02] was just natural for me because that's what I was involved in to take that level of service to a
[02:16:08] higher calling but taking like trying to become an astronaut is completely consistent with my promise
[02:16:17] to leave the positive impact in this world and that's how I honor the brothers we lost and I
[02:16:31] will never stop until the day I die trying to fill in that void because it's a boy that can never be
[02:16:37] filled in.
[02:16:47] I was walking out of the tactical operations center on a little base on that day and
[02:17:11] I remember I I walked out and I looked over to my right and walked out the door and I looked over to my
[02:17:26] right and I saw you and you were on your knees you were fairly covered in blood
[02:17:52] and you were washing the blood washing the blood out of Ryan's helmet and
[02:18:22] I realized that this was going to take a very personal toll on everybody and
[02:18:52] I didn't know what to say there was no training no one had been killed and I rack before
[02:19:13] for seals we never talked about we never talked about we talked about hey if a guy gets wounded
[02:19:26] if a guy gets killed here's what we're going to do in the next six minutes here's how we're
[02:19:30] going to get a guy extracted here's the cash the evacuation here's the protocol that we're going to go
[02:19:34] through here's the medical procedure going to do to try and save his life these are all things we're
[02:19:38] going to do in the 15 minutes from when someone gets hurt and I had been in the seal teams for
[02:19:51] 16 years at that point 15 years and not one time ever in any training scenario did we ever talk
[02:20:09] about okay now what do we do now there's a little protocol around hey here's the casualty
[02:20:18] the casualty officer that's going to go here's the protocol that we follow for notification
[02:20:24] the family all that stuff all the mechanics of it existed and we we did what we were supposed to
[02:20:31] we followed that protocol but the protocol for how do I look at a 21 year old kid that's cleaning
[02:20:38] the blood out of one of his friends helmets there's no protocol for that and what I mean what I
[02:20:53] had to do was because I was still for guy in charge and I had to try and figure out what to do
[02:21:05] there was no one ask no an ask there's no there's no person to say hey what do I do now
[02:21:17] and you know what what I defaulted to which I actually told you guys in the clear
[02:21:27] three days later two days later when I finally could assemble a sentence was go back to work
[02:21:38] was that this is what we came to do we still have a mission we still have soldiers and
[02:21:44] Marines that are out there risking their lives that we absolutely provide safety and security
[02:21:49] for we can deliver those guys home to their families and that's that's what we need to do
[02:22:04] and that's you know that's what we did
[02:22:05] you know sometimes words there are no right words for situations like that but I think
[02:22:27] just being there with the people you love at your side is the most important thing
[02:22:37] to be doing to go back out and work and do the job you came there to do that you signed up to do
[02:22:45] and it's not for I don't mean to be disrespectful with with these words but it's not for
[02:23:01] country or service it's for the person sitting next to you for standing next to you for your
[02:23:06] brother and your sister you do it because you love that person because at least to me and in my
[02:23:14] experience the folks who joined to be seals who did it because they wanted to serve their
[02:23:20] country that was the greatest reason they were there there wasn't a bigger intrinsic reason
[02:23:28] like doing it for the person next to you for the brotherhood for yourself they didn't seem to
[02:23:36] make it through and I'm not sure if I would die for my country but I would and I will die
[02:23:51] for my brother and sister without a doubt and that's just a taste of war we lost two people
[02:24:11] that day there are put tunes companies who have lost half most of their unit you think of you see
[02:24:21] the numbers from World War two or from Vietnam it's astounding we I'm and I am not trying to be
[02:24:30] little the sacrifices our service members have done in this war but I'm just trying to put it in
[02:24:37] context that we had a whole generation of people we asked them to continue fighting despite
[02:24:48] the heavy losses and casualties they suffered on a daily basis that trumped any number we had
[02:24:56] in the post 9-11 wars and they did it
[02:25:03] so being there with your brothers and sisters and continuing that fight that is the best
[02:25:14] remedy for a situation like that
[02:25:18] and obviously the other you know it's real obvious I guess when you look back but
[02:25:42] again this is something that a lot of times we weren't prepared for in the modern seal
[02:25:50] teams you know when I when I was raising the seal teams in the 90s we were preparing for one
[02:25:57] mission if we were lucky we'd do one mission and that mindset kind of got into our heads where
[02:26:04] you're you know you just didn't think about how how you would continue on and yet I mean we stood
[02:26:09] down for like two days and then it was like okay get your gear back on and it's time to go
[02:26:19] even in that same day after Ryan which hit we said get your stuff on get your gear back on
[02:26:28] reload get back out there and I mean it it it pains me to this a day that I wasn't there
[02:26:42] for that assault because I was with Ryan and I am glad that I was by Ryan's side
[02:26:48] but I meant I wasn't there from Mark when he was shot and killed the next time I saw him
[02:27:04] was in the morgue giving hit giving a final kiss to his forehead
[02:27:09] I didn't mean to interrupt well yeah you're exactly right and and so Ryan wounded and
[02:27:23] I mean severely wounded and then yeah you're right it wasn't even a day it was a matter of
[02:27:34] an hour maybe before life called me up and said hey this is what's going on
[02:27:43] and then yeah once Mark was gone then it was a couple days and then okay
[02:27:54] and again the the the the strange thing or
[02:27:59] I guess the thing to contemplate a little bit deeper is you know if you're going on to
[02:28:07] gobble canal like you're gonna fight and you're not gonna have time to think about what just happened
[02:28:14] whereas hey the way it was for us it was like okay well now you're gonna stand down for two days
[02:28:20] you're gonna think about everything you're gonna you're gonna package up your your bro's gear and send it home
[02:28:30] you're gonna you're gonna be thinking about that and then you're gonna get in the same vehicles
[02:28:37] you're gonna roll out and
[02:28:40] and that's what lies you said that's what you do for your brothers that's what you do
[02:28:54] you keep doing your job you know I was thinking about that too when you're talking about shooting
[02:29:01] and you're talking about look you you know you do you know how you get through that part of the course
[02:29:05] you fall the procedures you do your job you check your body position you front side focus how do you complete the
[02:29:11] stocks you you figure out with the dead spaces you follow the protocol that's what you do that's that's
[02:29:17] what you do that's how you move forward you do what you're supposed to do
[02:29:20] and of course it was an over either because because then you know in September we'll ask
[02:29:41] Mike as well so close to being home going home and a million different excuses that you could make
[02:30:02] to not go out and do your job
[02:30:20] and it was a heavy obviously coming home from that deployment
[02:30:24] was I mean first of all there was no you know they do the they do the decompression stops now
[02:30:37] where you stop somewhere and you hang out for a few days and you kind of decompress what we
[02:30:42] didn't do that we got on a plane and we woke you know flew home and woke up and we were back in San Diego
[02:30:55] yeah right we didn't have time to decompress we didn't have the long boat ride over
[02:31:02] the Atlantic to decompress with your buddies around cards around a drink and just talk that's
[02:31:15] what you do right after an op you just hang out with your but with your bros and just you don't
[02:31:23] know your decompressing but that's what you're doing and to be thrust back into civilization normal
[02:31:31] modern civilization that is a hard transition and it is surreal and it can mess people up
[02:31:40] when did you come home do you remember yeah so I came home in October most folks came home
[02:31:47] early October or late September I came home because I was I was reading listening and if you
[02:31:56] remember the rules to read and list you need to be it protects the purposes you need to be in
[02:32:03] country on the first day of the month right so I stayed in extra two or three weeks more after
[02:32:09] the rest of my but tune and gone home yeah that's funny remember I ever wanted to like just
[02:32:17] get a special one all your bros already home just wanted to get home they told you it was still there
[02:32:22] with me yeah Tony was still they were we were rough together and I think we still got another
[02:32:27] opportunity out of it with I think team five yeah had had was coming to really us yeah you
[02:32:35] well you were the last plane home with us I was I think on one of the last planes home
[02:32:42] because I remember um I remember meeting Marcus as he was in the battalion we're leaving us
[02:32:49] and yeah I think I was in the I think in one of the last planes home and then at this point
[02:33:01] it was weird when we got home because like the guys back on the strand had been like reading
[02:33:06] our after actions reports known what we were doing they gone to our guys funerals
[02:33:13] visit our wounded guys in the hospital and I remember when we got home
[02:33:17] this was the decompression plan they had new guys swim pairs of new guys so if for instance
[02:33:32] when we went to the bar they had a they had a new guy to drive you home and a new guy to drive
[02:33:39] your car home that was the decompression plan I remember thinking myself well okay at least
[02:33:49] somebody thought of something and that's what that's what it was it was all right you know we'll
[02:33:54] take care of you guys we know you got some steam to blow off and that's what we did I don't know if
[02:33:59] that was a good plan it doesn't really see back I think the spirit of trying to do the spirit of
[02:34:06] it was good execution was maybe a little yeah just maybe there's something we could have used more
[02:34:12] than a new guy to drive you I remember I was getting in a car and I mean we're look
[02:34:23] there's when you when when when I'll just speak for my own person when I came home from that
[02:34:27] appointed like you you weren't holding a lot back you know it was like no you're dumb no don't do
[02:34:35] that hey we're not doing that it was like we were I was definitely at that point of just calling things
[02:34:42] how they were and that was like you had to I had to re-adapt to say okay you know what I can't just
[02:34:51] just just do that all the time absolutely I I feel like we can talk a long time about
[02:35:01] re-aclimating back to society and how to do that effectively and I think personally that
[02:35:07] that transition is so difficult that it is also the reason why a lot of people have trouble
[02:35:15] read justing back to society because you put that switch on for so long you just don't know
[02:35:21] exactly how to turn it back off and I remember very clearly when I came back it was very raw
[02:35:29] everything was raw and I was a lot more direct and I think the heat and anger my heart had
[02:35:41] just swelled up and I it it took me years to read just re-aclimate get a better understanding of
[02:35:54] what I had been through and what I was feeling to be a productive member of society because
[02:36:01] you can't talk that way you maybe you'll get away talking like that to a patoon of seals
[02:36:07] for the rest of your career but you're going to be very you're in for a surprise for a shock when
[02:36:14] you go back to the real world and you realize that people don't respond in that fashion when you
[02:36:20] talk to them because I mean that's just not how most of society most of humans interact they don't
[02:36:27] interact on that type of level of intensity and rawness so that was huge huge learning for me
[02:36:37] and I'm very thankful that I had the years that in going to college are working in a different
[02:36:46] line of work to really understand that a different human side a different meaning of what I meant to be
[02:36:52] human I was I remember I had conversations with life and death because life and death
[02:37:02] the two-partue commanders you know we were getting asked questions we were getting the people that we're saying
[02:37:07] well should you guys been going on the day or should you guys been working with like we were getting
[02:37:11] all those questions and I had a legitimate sit down with both those guys and I was like listen
[02:37:19] we cannot be emotional about this we cannot respond it came after we went to a meeting
[02:37:24] where it was an officer detailer meeting and we were you know it's sort of plotting out what the
[02:37:30] what an officer career should look like blah blah blah and somehow this so the three of us are
[02:37:35] in the bunch of other officers like all lieutenant's all you know lieutenant's maybe some oh
[02:37:40] force in there and one of the other guys that I knew who's a good guy he he didn't mean anything
[02:37:46] by it but but he said something along the lines of you know when we were saying well it'd be
[02:37:53] good to do this job or that job or whatever and the conversation was going and he said something
[02:37:58] along the lines of well not everyone's going to be as lucky as you guys were because I think you
[02:38:03] know he was just trying to say be good for guys to be able to get another shit and he goes not
[02:38:06] everyone's going to be as lucky as you guys were then and I get what he was saying but like I had to
[02:38:14] I had to you know just detach a little bit because let's face it I mean this was within weeks of
[02:38:20] coming home and you're thinking the last thing in the world you think you are lucky that you just
[02:38:25] buried your freaking guys and and I but you know we all maintained but you know after that I
[02:38:34] I talked to Nathan Seth who as you know Nathan Seth are not exactly the most you know they're
[02:38:41] not real great at hiding their emotions right they're both freaking passionate emotional guys
[02:38:46] and I was like guys we cannot you if we talk about this deployment from emotional perspective all the
[02:38:53] time we're we're not going to be able to communicate properly what we learned and so we have to
[02:39:00] take a step back don't get emotional don't get an arguments about this stuff just stay detached
[02:39:06] and and communicate what happened human psychology is everything learning how to be in control of
[02:39:18] your emotions your body language how you craft your words it's probably the most important thing
[02:39:26] you can do as a leader and as a follower and it took me many years to learn this and I'm just kind of
[02:39:36] smiling as you're talking about this I did not learn as a 22 year old kid coming back from the
[02:39:43] deployment I did not learn how to detach myself how to be emotionless because while human emotion
[02:39:52] is what makes us human and is some of the best aspects of what make us human it is all also the
[02:39:59] biggest hindrance to getting stuff done to completing the mission ego is a part of it narcissism
[02:40:05] is a part of it those are human emotions but they're walls and when you bring emotion to the table
[02:40:13] you are mounting defenses that make it hard to get to the core of your argument of what your
[02:40:19] vision is and I've got countless stories where I failed and then endeavor but have learned
[02:40:28] through experience and through just watching other people observing making mistakes
[02:40:34] being in the seal teams of learning to find tune that emotional and social intelligence
[02:40:42] to know the human psychology of the person you're talking to of how to disarm their defenses
[02:40:50] if they are emotional or disagree with you because people have common I friendly believe that
[02:41:00] all people want good things we just disagree on how to get from point A to point B and that's where
[02:41:06] we mount our defenses and lose sight of the big picture but if you can take a step back
[02:41:12] remove your ego and emotion from the picture and find common ground that's where you can
[02:41:20] influence and share your vision to complete your objective and that's that's applicable in
[02:41:27] everything we do let's applicable in combat to political and pool in business in medicine
[02:41:33] in what I do as a national and NASA is trying to share that vision trying to get that buy in
[02:41:41] and then all starts with understanding the human condition
[02:41:46] I've got a funny story that I always remember
[02:41:49] and I'm embarrassed about it and I wish if I ever meet this person again I would like to say
[02:41:59] I would like to apologize there are a lot of people I would like to apologize and this is one of them
[02:42:04] I was home this is at post deployment and I was playing one of the many call of duty video games
[02:42:10] and this is my brother's girlfriend and she saw me playing this video game and I'm just
[02:42:15] getting into it and she says I don't understand war such a waste of life
[02:42:21] and there was something inside of me that just I'm embarrassed to say but I snapped
[02:42:32] and I had I was stern I wasn't like I wasn't unprofessional on cussing her out but I was like
[02:42:42] that like you don't know what you're talking about how dare you say like I think having a pretty
[02:42:52] not a responsible way of responding back to that it was born out of emotion because
[02:42:58] I was hurt because I took that as an attack against friends that I had just recently lost
[02:43:04] and this young woman who had no maliciousness behind her comment and was absolutely surprised
[02:43:15] with my reaction and was apologetic but I could have been more effective just slowing down
[02:43:25] removing actually using the intrinsic emotion I was having as a as a tell
[02:43:31] right because if you can be a little more control and understanding of your own emotions it can tell
[02:43:38] you it can give you hints as to what is going on and how to properly respond and craft your
[02:43:45] words to get your message across I could have with my body language with my tone I could have
[02:43:55] said something different to to let her know how I understand the spirit of her comment but how that
[02:44:02] comes across to veterans and how she can be better informed of the future to be more careful
[02:44:08] with her words and not have snapped back at her and to this day I told my brother and he's like
[02:44:14] no it's not a big deal at all she's like she never you know she probably wouldn't even remember
[02:44:19] it but I still to this day feel bad and that's just one of many examples where I let human
[02:44:26] emotion get in the way and I can for me my childhood was a phase of learning the teams were
[02:44:35] a phase of learning but post teams there was a lot of learning how to be a human that made
[02:44:42] me suitable to be a candidate for our space exploration program and I there's no way I would
[02:44:52] be in the situation have the honor and privilege I do now if it wasn't for all of those experiences
[02:45:00] you get home from that deployment and this again it's the same the same idea is guess what
[02:45:06] you're going to do now you're going to go another tune you're going to get do another work
[02:45:10] up you're going to pull him in again was there you just that's just how and you're just going to
[02:45:15] execute that yeah I think it's a bit different this time ago around I think I already said it earlier
[02:45:28] but there's a special name for what up for seals like me because I only did two tours to deploy
[02:45:36] minutes which for people who don't know in the grand scheme of things it's nothing compared to the
[02:45:41] experience of a lot of seals a lot of soldiers marines who have done multiple tours and but the first
[02:45:48] one we had agreed we had a lot of heavy sustained combat experience and being able to do to take
[02:45:56] those experiences forward this time not as a new guy having new seals and our pertune and being able
[02:46:03] to mentor them was a privilege and an honor so it was I remember feeling drastically different
[02:46:15] the second time through and still of course learning every single day but also knowing that you
[02:46:20] serve as a role model and everything you do and say and act to believe it or not younger people because
[02:46:28] I've all those pretty young but even more junior and younger seals and the second puttune
[02:46:38] work up going through that again and deploying again and while the second time around it was a
[02:46:45] little different there was this there was a stint under Seth where we had some pretty sustained combat
[02:46:54] yeah well the funny thing was when Seth was considering what he was going to do next and
[02:47:04] you know he was going to go to school maybe get out always all these different options that he had in
[02:47:09] his head and you know I talked to him and I was like hey man first of all if you don't if you don't
[02:47:17] take over the Sask unit someone else is and the only person that you take it over should be someone
[02:47:22] experienced someone that will take care of these guys that deserve to have someone to take care of them
[02:47:29] and you know he's listening to me and finally just stands up and starts walking down and I'm like
[02:47:34] where are you going he's like I'm going to talk to the excel and I was like go to get a tell him I said
[02:47:37] I'm going to tell him I'm taking over this task unit and I was like Roger that but one of the other
[02:47:43] things now as you guys were going through work up and you know there's all kinds of this this the
[02:47:50] there's all the political things going on there's all the little backstabbing and all this
[02:47:55] crops you know just normal kind of political crap that goes on and you don't want it to go on
[02:48:01] to the teams but it does and so that stuff's going on and Seth you know Seth's he was real prone
[02:48:10] to getting frustrated by that stuff you know he could freak out about something and so finally you know
[02:48:15] what one day he's out this all the capability they're doing and whatever and I said bro just calm
[02:48:22] down going to employment nothing's going on go over there work out for six months you know get
[02:48:26] strong and then come home and then chill out you know go to sure duty whatever so he's like
[02:48:33] fine you know and so he goes on to point it just like you all did with the attitude of like okay
[02:48:38] cool you know nothing's going on we're going to go to a place with a good gym will train some
[02:48:44] Iraqi soldiers and we will you know get big and then sure enough as fate would have it you guys roll in
[02:48:52] and pretty quickly after you guys roll in the I don't know if you know this side of the story
[02:48:59] but the conventional some of the conventional commanders that were there when task unit bruiser was there
[02:49:04] found out that some of the guys from task unit bruiser were back in country and put out a very
[02:49:10] specific request for forces that spelled out exactly who they wanted and that's that's why
[02:49:19] you guys ended up getting the call for supporting the efforts inside of solder city which was
[02:49:28] a freaking disaster at the time yeah it was none of where of that it was um and we found ourselves in
[02:49:36] an in a situation where we had the opportunity the privilege to have an impact on operations and
[02:49:48] support our brothers and sisters in the army and I remember also Mike Sureli being there and
[02:49:56] I went to Buds with Mike and it was an honor to serve under his leadership I admired Mike
[02:50:06] long ago from Buds being an 18 year old kid and obviously you know Mike he was a former roper
[02:50:15] former for um Marine Force Recon staff sergeant so you know we in Buds we were enamored with his
[02:50:26] experience but also his ability to talk respectfully and speak the language to the other officers and
[02:50:36] the instructors but also speak to the level of the lowest in listed and that's a skill that's hard
[02:50:44] to learn and definitely I was unaware at the time but also making observations and taking
[02:50:50] unconscious notes to incorporate in my own quest to learn how to share my vision and how to be
[02:51:03] a follower and how to be a leader later on in my life what do you remember about um that first
[02:51:11] op into solder city was good times huh yeah I would I would I would make a disc
[02:51:21] plant so I served as one of the appointment and the navigators and I had to confess that I did not
[02:51:29] have a good I did not perform well especially on that first op and it was you know I'd take
[02:51:42] accountability for that and it's not that I ever had to talk with Seth or anything but I don't
[02:51:48] I've never actually had this conversation with anyone but I know that first op I felt like I failed
[02:51:53] in a lot of ways this is the first time I'm actually publicly talking about it
[02:51:56] it was a new area we had made this force combined from operators from different
[02:52:07] platoons and different teams we and there were never worked together and in theory you should
[02:52:12] be that shouldn't be a problem right because we had the same standard operating procedures everyone
[02:52:16] knows how to do an I had an appeal left peel rights center peel you know respond moving
[02:52:22] cover and move everyone knows the basics but they did throw a little bit of a wrench just
[02:52:29] working with operators you hadn't yet worked with and I know for me that it was another I should
[02:52:41] have known better especially having been through oh six more body that the mental preparation
[02:52:48] required and I think I talked to you but for me that preparation was getting in the mind said that
[02:52:54] I would not come home and for that first op and sawter city I was I don't I was not there yet
[02:53:04] and I was the navigator and let us in actually that was we were inserted by the army
[02:53:12] some local armor in the area and we were trying to get to our target site and we got
[02:53:20] compromised they were lookouts there and I missed my opportunity to engage those lookouts
[02:53:30] and we eventually got we got attacked from the rooftops there were RPGs there were sustained
[02:53:40] automatic fire and we had a call in for you know you were for help to get out of that area
[02:53:46] so it was a welcome back into the fray of things and I if I talked to other people I don't
[02:53:56] know I don't think they would probably call me on say you did bad job on that but I think personally
[02:54:02] I feel I've carried that with me just prompts and like you're getting getting locked on and
[02:54:11] getting back on track so that's specifically the first op yeah and the reason I specifically asked
[02:54:18] you about the first op is because after the first op which I know was was was not a good
[02:54:24] operation because Seth called me and was like horrified at the way the whole thing went down he
[02:54:33] of course said he totally screwed it up and he needed to reset and Mike's really says the same
[02:54:38] exact thing you know he made mistakes and he they didn't do the right so it's like everybody
[02:54:46] everybody that I know personally was all like they felt awful about that first operation
[02:54:54] and it was only by the grace of God that it wasn't like a mass casualty scenario
[02:55:03] I mean it's funny I have never had this conversation with Mike or the Seth anyone else
[02:55:12] it's kind of funny you saying these things like we all are saying the same things and trying
[02:55:17] to take accountability for how that went you know it was eye opening and I mean they brought it
[02:55:24] the enemy brought it and we were in for a rude awakening but in a lot of ways it helped us
[02:55:35] for the future ops because we had good successful ops that made an impact later on it's just that
[02:55:42] first one was I don't know here right there were there were RPGs that were really close we
[02:55:51] and by the grace of God we had our army brothers there to support us really so I can't give enough
[02:56:02] props to to guys to our brothers like that yeah it's one of those you know and I'm sure
[02:56:13] Mike and I will go into a bigger debrief at some point on this from his perspective I wish
[02:56:18] Seth I wish I would hit record you know whenever he called me years ago on a on a secure
[02:56:25] line to kind of debrief me but what I think is awesome and definitely get this from Mike and
[02:56:30] which is like you guys could have walked out of that walked off that operation you know completed
[02:56:39] that mission and gone into freaking hiding like just been like this is not going to work this is
[02:56:45] we're we're not ready for this all those things but I think it's a great example of okay
[02:56:54] stand down for 72 hours we got to do some rehearsals we got to do some drills we got to get our
[02:56:58] shit together and then we'll do this properly and so often people take a hit you know they
[02:57:07] they make a mistake and their attitude is oh no I'm not capable doing this see I'm wrong I'm a
[02:57:12] disaster instead of instead of assessing it going okay here's the mistake you got made here's the
[02:57:18] mistakes that got made here's the things we need to change here's the rehearsal we need to do here's
[02:57:21] the planning we need to put into place you do an assessment and like you just said you learn from your
[02:57:27] mistakes and you make adjustments I mean it's the same thing with the blue on blue we had arriving in
[02:57:32] Ramadhi it's like okay look we got away without one relatively light relatively light I mean
[02:57:41] we we hey on Iraqi soldier was killed that was awful a couple Iraqi soldiers were wounded
[02:57:47] we had one guy get fragged in the face but compared to what could have happened we got off light
[02:57:54] and same thing we didn't say well there's two things we didn't do we didn't say well that wasn't our
[02:57:58] fault and that you know it was like no this is my fault and here's what we're gonna do to fix it
[02:58:04] and that's the same attitude that you guys had that first operation at Sander City which was okay
[02:58:11] we made mistakes there are fault we're gonna fix them and we're gonna go back and get after it
[02:58:16] direct parallels with that blue on blue incident we had compared to the first off we had
[02:58:26] in Tatar City and I remember you know it was a four man element with some Iraqis you know
[02:58:32] I don't want to say names but I was with that forward recon element and just the Swiss cheese
[02:58:40] model Murphy's law it went bad quick and like you said someone got shot in the face and
[02:58:51] alright Iraqi died and someone was fragged and I played a role in that that was the first
[02:58:59] firefight I caught in and it was one of the worst ones and now that I have had a little bit more
[02:59:08] experience to kind of understand that when you're receiving sustained 50-count fire in multiple
[02:59:14] automatic weapons fire you're probably not fighting the enemy you think you're fighting and that was
[02:59:20] because we were fighting greens and a whole company by rackies who were painting us down and it's amazing
[02:59:26] that we didn't lose anyone on that and I by the grace I threw a couple of racks immediately
[02:59:37] that was one of my first reactions and thankfully I did not cook those fracks for those who don't know
[02:59:43] cooking a frag means you pulled the ring and there's a little bit of time you know
[02:59:54] what's the latest you five seconds allegedly yeah and you hold it release and cook it you
[03:00:02] know count one with thousand two and thousand three and the idea is that when you throw it there's not enough time
[03:00:07] for the person you're throwing it to pick it up and throw it back at you right thankfully I did not
[03:00:11] cook those grenades and I talked to some of the marine angle code that was on the ground there and they said
[03:00:17] my frag just rolled by and thankfully he had enough time to get out of the way and that's me that's on me
[03:00:24] it's and I remember distinctly after that event you came in we were in the platoon hot
[03:00:34] in he asked us like you're going around like who's fault is this and like I think Jeremy
[03:00:41] raised his hands like it's my fault and I don't know it's like my fault and you really know
[03:00:47] it's my fault and you went on to talk about why and you assumed responsibility and I didn't know
[03:00:58] what at the time being just a young kid watching all this taken it all in but it had a formative
[03:01:03] impact on me of assuming command and responsibility when you are the leader because the book stops with you
[03:01:12] and just taking unconscious notes about that interaction but that had a huge formative
[03:01:26] that was a very formative experience for me and it parallels exactly what we were just talking
[03:01:30] about with that first op and solder city I would love to talk to Mike about it one day the next time I see
[03:01:38] him yeah what could you guys both in here we'll do a full full debrief so that that those operations
[03:01:45] in solder city though man after that so just a couple things solder city had been a total disaster
[03:01:54] four years so that was 2008 it been a disaster since 2003 the enemy was in control of that area
[03:02:01] the entire time the army finally said they're gonna do something about it the army started building a wall
[03:02:08] the enemy for roachiously attacked it was devastating and you guys rolled in there after the first
[03:02:16] op obviously things went bad and and and and and then you guys got in your rhythm you figured out
[03:02:22] you corrected your mistakes and you guys started executing these missions in support of the army
[03:02:30] and started killing a lot of bad guys and I I want to say it was about six weeks after about six
[03:02:39] weeks the enemy surrendered for all practical purposes the people that were leading the insurgents
[03:02:46] inside that area said okay yeah yeah we're done we're done so a problem that had been a problem for five years
[03:02:53] was over in about six weeks and again I'm I'm breezing through that because you guys did some
[03:03:03] harling missions in there and took a lot of risk to go in there and make that happen but it was my
[03:03:09] point is that it was risky yes but very effective in in subdoing a previously just savage enemy that
[03:03:20] did not care I don't know if too many things in this life that are good things that are without risk
[03:03:30] and that goes to every facet of life of business a combat of space exploration all good things
[03:03:40] have a lot of risk and a lot of hard work to get there and certainly combat operations there were no
[03:03:47] different now at what point did you start thinking about you know going to become a doctor
[03:03:57] that was in remoney so when you did your initial application it was between
[03:04:05] deployments is that right yes so the story that I mentioned earlier of me being like I don't
[03:04:11] know why you don't want to be a doctor it's the dumbest thing I've ever heard being a team
[03:04:15] guys the best thing in the world why would you trade in an M60 for a scalpel so we actually had
[03:04:22] that conversation in between we did I remember very well I just a giant I don't know why you want
[03:04:29] to do this but I will support you you know and you had my back like I would never want to do this
[03:04:36] but good on you for the one and a do is and I'll support you in every way and I mean that letter you
[03:04:40] read at the start of this brought back some memories I the very powerful words and like
[03:04:47] undeserving kind words I had not heard that in many years when did you find out you got picked up
[03:04:56] was that before deployment that was during I think during deployment so I decided I was going to go
[03:05:03] into stay 21 that for those who don't know that's the elicit to officer commissioning program
[03:05:08] so that I can go to medical school and I knew I wanted to do it after coming out of a
[03:05:12] Romadi but I thought it was poor form and really I could embarrass to leave my
[03:05:23] petune after especially at the one one deployment and what kind of what is that I
[03:05:29] already feel bad enough that I've only done two deployments and I am aware that I am a
[03:05:37] representative of the seal teams in what I do now which unfortunately I say unfortunately because
[03:05:46] I don't appreciate the the spotlight I was of what I have to do as a national
[03:05:54] not but I am a representative of the teams and to me that's kind of crazy like I do not
[03:06:01] deserve to be a representative of the teams I'm a two pump jump you want me to be representative
[03:06:08] of the teams and I do it with honor and seriousness and I will do I will never do anything to
[03:06:14] disgrace the teams I hold and covet that honor more than anything and I will defend it
[03:06:23] at all costs but I just talking just being here it's just like people will see it and
[03:06:30] see me as a representative and it's humbling in many ways and it I take it seriously
[03:06:38] so I wanted to at least get two deployments and because I felt like it's like the least
[03:06:43] respectable amount of work you should do as a team guys at least two deployments
[03:06:48] so yeah that the decision was made like all right I'll put in this pack I'll time this package
[03:06:52] in so that I'm getting a decision yesterday as I'm coming off of the signal deployment
[03:06:56] and that's what happened I found out and then maybe just before we left or maybe during
[03:07:01] deployment that I was accepted into the program and so you come home from that deployment
[03:07:10] you had you guys had a little bit of time to decompress during that deployment
[03:07:13] because the solder city fighting was in the beginning of the deployment relatively close
[03:07:17] you guys got done and and then it was you know kind of what I said earlier was hey back to some
[03:07:23] outstations relatively mellow compared to either a, Romadi or b, solder city
[03:07:32] then I mean not to dismiss what the work we did and the work that other people did but if
[03:07:37] the combat operations intensity was night and day difference I mean we were working at an
[03:07:43] up-house in Rupa and doing a lot of long range reconnaissance missions on side by side which are basically
[03:07:49] high powered tactical go-carts going hundreds of miles and just traversing the desert in
[03:07:56] these getting paid to do it but it was definitely different because I fired my rifle almost
[03:08:05] every single operation in Romadi I could probably count on one hand like the times that didn't
[03:08:13] like when there was a mission where I didn't fire all the same within solder city every
[03:08:20] I don't feel there was a single lot operation we did where I didn't fire my rifle
[03:08:25] but in Rupa it afterwards I didn't I don't think I fired it once except on the range
[03:08:30] so I make sure it's said it didn't so it's just just a different contrast you know people
[03:08:35] had different experiences based on where they are yeah and there's different missions there's
[03:08:39] different things that people have to do and I say this you know I'll have guys come up to me and say
[03:08:43] you know I was in the I was in the Marine Corps from you know 1994 to 1998 and I never did anything
[03:08:48] and I feel guilty and I'm like hey you did what the country needed you to do you did what America
[03:08:52] needed you to do that's what you did and so you get assigned different missions in any unit and you
[03:08:59] do what you're assigned to do you do to the best of your ability and you know in this case it's a
[03:09:04] little bit of a nice little decompression riding around the desert in ATVs with relatively low
[03:09:10] threat you know and then you come home from that deployment and now now it's time to go to college
[03:09:18] how will do you at this point? see so this is 2000 and eight so I do a public math here
[03:09:28] so did me to put you out in the spot there rock and scientist I was at 24 so you're 24 years old yeah
[03:09:39] I went to college and you went to University of San Diego I went to University of San Diego I was a 28 year old
[03:09:46] no I was a 30 year old completely military institutionalized grown man with no
[03:09:54] like ability to fit in with civilians and I showed off the college and so it was awesome
[03:10:04] and and what what did you major math and did you know at this point you want to kick ass get
[03:10:10] great grades and get into a really good medical school yes that was the plan to I so the program I was
[03:10:18] accepted the seamen animal program was specifically to go to medicine so and the Navy does they
[03:10:25] think a huge gamble because they're accepting you for this program putting a lot of money in you
[03:10:29] and you're not even accepted to college art to college or medical school so they're hoping that you
[03:10:35] will do well enough in college to be accepted to medical school and if it was the same as you you
[03:10:40] only have three years to do an undergraduate degree so you get squash a four year degree in three
[03:10:46] years and for me I also had to get the prerequisites to go to medical school so that was you know full
[03:10:52] time status working summer school working winter doing winter classes you have to go to ROTC I did
[03:11:00] and I also gave up parking tickets to pay for tuition you're one of those guys I just want
[03:11:06] you know the world finally loses respect for Johnny Kim in some way you know what I
[03:11:12] um it was a humbling job on it I think it was good for my soul so ROTC can be hard for former
[03:11:21] elicit because you you you you might be a battle hard and better and no one care and people care
[03:11:30] you have to suck in take that humble pill and realize that you were just another midshyman with the other
[03:11:36] 18 19 year old kids and for some people it's hard to do that right because you had to suck in your
[03:11:42] pride take that humble pill and just follow and do these things that are I don't want to say dumb but
[03:11:50] kind of well they're aimed at young inexperienced untrained off-circuited it's that have no
[03:11:59] that have no experience in the military that's who they're aimed at yes they're not aimed at
[03:12:03] guys that have been in the teams on two combat deployments responsible for all kinds of stuff
[03:12:09] they're not aimed at you and so when they hit you they sting but you let them but in that respect
[03:12:18] it is an opportunity to exercise humility and to be able to suck in your pride because that goes
[03:12:25] that is in the same spirit of when someone says or does something to you that gets you emotional
[03:12:31] and you having the mental fortitude to step back put your own emotions aside to get to communicate
[03:12:40] to the person to find common ground in the same way that's how I saw that opportunity to suck in
[03:12:47] my to get that practice at humility and I didn't I wasn't always good at it you know because sometimes
[03:12:53] you're fed up like mustering a 0 500 when the muster is really like 0 700 like why am I here
[03:12:59] for 2 hours because you know maybe the squallie to put 15 minutes of grace time before like the
[03:13:05] company commander before the fake you know like rotsy leader or whatever and then eventually
[03:13:11] works out there you're like 2 hours before you're there standing there 2 hours of attention before
[03:13:15] you need to be there you know like little things like that and for some especially I saw some
[03:13:19] former enlisted having a really hard time keeping their thoughts to themselves team guys are even worse
[03:13:30] yes so it is an exercise in humility and giving parking tickets was the same way because
[03:13:39] the stay 21 was very generous but it only gives 10,000 of tuition but it gives you time you're
[03:13:46] I'm not trying to dismiss the benefits of the program it was I'm very grateful for that but I had to
[03:13:51] make up an extra $20,000 and the university of San Diego was kind enough to offer me a job hey you
[03:13:58] give up parking tickets for eight hours a week and we will cover the rest so I give up parking tickets and
[03:14:06] some may see that like oh wow you went from doing these combat operations to give it in combat
[03:14:10] to give in parking tickets like well for me it was an exercise in humility and just there's
[03:14:16] you should never think you're too good to do a job and I think you should be like that and everything
[03:14:20] you do be for ever new guy is what I try to emulate and I don't mean as in you shouldn't step up to the
[03:14:29] role and be a leader and delicate appropriately but never think that you are above taking out the trash or
[03:14:35] that you're above not respecting the secretary or the lowest junior and listed right I mean that's
[03:14:44] I was there you were there and we were both E-wands you're the bottom of the bottom
[03:14:48] by the food chain, mop and floors taking out the trash and I remember what Tony, Tony afraid
[03:14:56] he said to me when I first showed up he was like never think you're too good to take out the trash
[03:15:00] now I take that to the heart like to this day never too good to do those jobs because
[03:15:08] the moment you start to think you're better than anyone else you have you have poisoned yourself
[03:15:14] you were on the dark path so given out parking tickets was well I'm thankful I got to give
[03:15:22] about parking tickets to really nice cars and universities and we married yet I got married
[03:15:30] during a while in my college and I had my first child my wife and I had our first child
[03:15:37] during university in the year then when do you start applying for med school
[03:15:45] so I applied between second and third year of the university in the summertime
[03:15:53] did you think you'd where do you apply everywhere I applied yeah every I think applied
[03:15:58] like 10 to 15 schools I applied to some really nice schools and you know I told you earlier
[03:16:04] that all my father wanted me to do was go to Harvard medical school and that's not the reason
[03:16:09] at least like at least I tell myself that's not the reason why I did it and maybe it
[03:16:12] is maybe some psychologists listening to this like oh that's totally why you went there
[03:16:17] but for and for me it was I had it was very impactful having friends
[03:16:27] Ryan Mike Mark JT I could go on of the people who have sacrificed
[03:16:35] and were much braver than I could ever be and that does a couple things to you it
[03:16:40] it humbles you for life I think if you remember that right knowing that no matter what you do
[03:16:45] in this lifetime it will never be enough and not that it's comparison but that pursuit
[03:16:50] is important but it made me want to fill in that void to make up for the good they would have
[03:16:57] done and that's how a lot of us honor our friends it's certainly how I honor my friends
[03:17:04] and for me that's being as impactful as possible to this world it doesn't matter what
[03:17:10] that is it could be in the form of serving as a team guy or serving as a physician
[03:17:15] or what my path is taking me to now as serving as a nationalat I wanted to be impactful
[03:17:23] and to me going to Harvard was giving me a better a bigger platform to be impactful it wasn't
[03:17:31] the name it wasn't the brand it wasn't the education you be fooling yourself to think that
[03:17:36] going to Harvard is going to make you a better doctor that's not true at all you would be just as
[03:17:40] good of a doctor anywhere you go to in this country but it was having a platform to be able to
[03:17:47] affect positive change that's why I wanted to go to an institution like John Hopkins or
[03:17:55] Harvard really and for me that transition the years of university San Diego and the early years of
[03:18:05] medical school or the hardest sometimes it's hard it's weird to say but some of the hardest
[03:18:09] years of my life because it was different I couldn't grind through it by just hitting harder
[03:18:16] with the way this is going from university San Diego to Harvard or just going from the team
[03:18:21] so you're just going okay at transition it was some of the hardest years of my life because
[03:18:26] it's not like you could just push through like you can in some of the things you do in
[03:18:30] the bloods or in teams and the bloods is a challenge but as you and I know training is nothing
[03:18:36] compared to war but you think training is hard you think how weak is hard it's hard right
[03:18:41] until you get hit in the face in a real combat operation and then you realize oh
[03:18:48] I've reset my benchmark for what is hard or what is painful or what is suffering and
[03:18:53] even having that benchmark going into transitioning to civilian life it was hard for me
[03:19:02] I was trying to fit in four year degree in three years trying to do really well because I knew
[03:19:07] I had a good grades to be considered for a school like Harvard I had my first child
[03:19:13] I was working part time but probably the worst of it was I was not right
[03:19:19] in the head with my decompression with post war I took a lot of that anger and hatred my
[03:19:31] heart and I still had it there and I lost a little bit of who I was and reg it took years
[03:19:37] for me to regain that and it was only through the grace of time of
[03:19:45] sometimes prayer, a friends, of mentors, of making mistakes that I was able to find that light
[03:19:58] and get a little bit back of who I was and learn through the process. What did it look like when
[03:20:04] how did that how did that anger and hatred manifested itself when you're at the University of San Diego
[03:20:12] on a sunny day and you're in the library and you've got to turn it a paper.
[03:20:17] So I have never even I haven't really talked about this but for me I felt I had a huge obligation
[03:20:32] to work as hard as I could to do the things I wanted to do because I owed it to Mark and Mikey
[03:20:38] and Ryan. It didn't manifest itself in the libraries of the University of San Diego. It
[03:20:47] manifested itself in my relationships with people I loved and not that I was I became my father
[03:20:54] and was abusive or verbally abusive to the people but I took my anger out in less than healthy ways.
[03:21:00] I am sad and embarrassed to admit but I get the little things would take me off and I would find
[03:21:11] myself punching a wall or breaking something and I think about that now and I understand that
[03:21:22] the frame of mine I was in and the kind of hurt I was in post-war and I just didn't
[03:21:28] have the healthiest way to deal with that and now that years have gone by and I've talking to
[03:21:34] our own classmates who have gone through their own battles the demons post-war realize I wasn't the
[03:21:41] only one but a lot of it I had to deal with on my own or through the patience of my wife who has
[03:21:49] been my biggest support through all of this. It took years for me to learn to be human again,
[03:22:02] to let go of that anger, to sublimate all those experiences, all that raw emotions and to good
[03:22:11] and when I think about some of my behavior the universe and not that I was out of completely
[03:22:21] out of line or anything I mean I was a good student I did well if you talk to people who I was
[03:22:26] in class with I mean I was not controversial in any ways but when I had started painting
[03:22:33] I was respectful and I voiced them and one of the biggest hard for me to say it I still to this
[03:22:48] day have hard time saying it just because it's it's just a word that's not it's very foreign to
[03:22:55] someone who is a seal. The learning to lower my defenses and be vulnerable was the light one of the
[03:23:06] biggest lights for me learning to be more of a human and that happened in medical school. It was
[03:23:18] I remember this why I had an experience in medical school where we do these talks about our
[03:23:24] experiences in the hospital and we were talking about like something called the hidden curriculum
[03:23:30] I can even tell you what that is now but it was we were talking I mean I was to say it was a
[03:23:36] touchy feeling kind of conversation was that's basically kind of what it was and I was I hated
[03:23:42] these talks I hated talking about it about my feelings to my classmates and a lot I think a lot of
[03:23:51] it was just pride because I was like I've been through so much more than dealing with the expectation
[03:23:59] of our supervisors in this medical school and this hidden curriculum and the difficulties
[03:24:07] of dealing with sick and dying patients like I've been through worse like I don't want to talk
[03:24:11] about my feelings and it made for a very rough person to be around and I don't think I
[03:24:20] wore my emotion to my face and I just didn't participate in the discussions and I had two
[03:24:26] caring physicians professors at the time pull me into our office and like look it's very visible
[03:24:33] that you don't enjoy these conversations and you pull a computer and your heart to talk to
[03:24:39] you and you detach yourself and like what's what's going on like this is a serious problem
[03:24:46] and I took that to heart and I examined where I was coming from and I realized that I just
[03:24:56] I didn't want to be vulnerable I didn't want to talk about my feelings this way because there was a
[03:24:59] lot of other things a lot of other baggage I had I had still but having that conversation and that
[03:25:06] guidance to open up really helped me become a better human in many ways which then led to being a
[03:25:16] better follower being a better leader so those are one of many experiences in that phase of life
[03:25:24] that helped me be a better candidate for NASA and for for other opportunities that have come
[03:25:33] I'm trying to overlay my own experiences you know kind of parallel to years and just thinking about things
[03:25:44] and I again I always say I got very very lucky one of the things that I got incredibly lucky
[03:25:50] with was when we got home from Romani two things happened number one I had a wife and three kids
[03:25:58] all at the optimum age as far as I can can tell the optimum age to connect with in the
[03:26:12] their their young enough that they're looking at you like you're a superhero they're old enough
[03:26:18] that they're not babies and I can see in their eyes like their people I guess that's the that's
[03:26:25] the big point like they were old enough they were in that age group you know three four five
[03:26:30] six years old where they're looking at me I'm looking at a little person right so I have that going on
[03:26:36] and plus my wife of course so I'm coming home to that and then at the same time I take over the training
[03:26:44] and where I'm around team guys not only my around team guys but all these little emotions that you
[03:26:51] have well you went through work up when I was running training with Seth like I was allowed
[03:26:58] to express my emotions about the teams and doing a good job and cover move and you better
[03:27:06] hey leader you better step up and take charge and hey you better get out like not only was I
[03:27:11] allowed do that it was beneficial for the guys that were going through the training because they
[03:27:15] got to see that I really cared about this and I didn't want anything to happen to them and like
[03:27:20] that so I got to like let those emotions out enough and then at the same time in my home life I was
[03:27:29] like oh I was looking at a little human being and going wait a second I can't this isn't this isn't
[03:27:36] to place to be emotional or be angry this kids looking at me like I'm a superhero and like I should
[03:27:43] become and that's what I'm going to be so kind of a cool very lucky situation that on the one hand I
[03:27:49] got to express and be around team guys and be raw as raw could be with team guys and at the same time
[03:27:56] learn that oh by the way you know it's not normal to it always freaked out late and Seth that I would
[03:28:04] go home and I never would swear in front of my kids and like obviously in front of a sealed
[03:28:09] tutor I would just go off and I'd come home and just be I don't want to say I'd be a different person
[03:28:14] but it kind of be a different person you know I'd kind of learned to all right this is okay over here
[03:28:20] it's not okay over there you look at a you look at a five-year-old girl or a you know a four-year-old boy
[03:28:27] and you go you know what this kid's counting on me to make some halfway decent decisions and I think
[03:28:34] that made me very quickly um figure out what I needed to do to move forward and um whereas for you
[03:28:47] I'm sitting there drawing that parallel course you're getting taken from that team guy environment
[03:28:54] to this non-teen guy environment to the end degree and boom here you go you got to box all that stuff up
[03:29:02] and figure out what to do with it real quick and and there's no real good outlet and the outlet becomes
[03:29:09] you know the wall the freaking plate the whatever that anger needs an outlet and
[03:29:16] when you let it out it's not the best place and it takes you a little while to figure out okay I see what's
[03:29:20] going on here yeah what you described took me years to learn and it is
[03:29:29] probably one of the most important traits of being a leader is having one the emotional and social
[03:29:42] intelligence of knowing your audience knowing who you're talking to and being dynamic enough
[03:29:48] that you can switch and craft your language your body language your tone of voice everything you do
[03:29:55] to suit the person you're talking to you can the way I would talk to a puttune seals
[03:30:05] would be very different then the way I would talk to a 60 year old COPD patient and COPD is like
[03:30:14] a long disease from common in folks who smoke who is in the hospital for the end of the time
[03:30:22] who wants to quit smoking and is frustrated and needs some guidance that patient is a different
[03:30:29] population and being able to have the clarity and intelligence to know that and to switch your language
[03:30:38] appropriately is so important to yield results and that goes for everything I'm you just that's why
[03:30:47] blanket leadership tenants don't work guiding principles work but you need a format
[03:30:57] to your own style to achieve the results and I think a lot of it starts with awareness
[03:31:04] with mindfulness of your own emotions of the emotions the body language that others are telling
[03:31:10] you because it gives you hints as to what they're feeling and if you know what they're feeling
[03:31:15] you understand where they're coming from that perspective you can disarm people by finding common ground
[03:31:23] and achieving results because most of the time all people want good things they just disagree on
[03:31:33] how to achieve that yeah the some you're gonna I'm gonna give you copy this new book I wrote
[03:31:40] in your book oh cool I'm glad we talked about everything that's in that book today so so much of this
[03:31:46] stuff is exactly what I talk about one of the things I talk about there in there is you know modulating
[03:31:52] you know how you have to modulate your leadership principles and how you know you can't use the same
[03:31:56] tool with one person the same way you use that same tool with a different person the same way you use it
[03:32:01] with someone else you have to understand who you're dealing with and figure out how much of that
[03:32:07] specific tool to apply if you can even use that tool because different people respond differently to different
[03:32:14] things absolutely you know what I wish I'm gonna admit I have not read any of your books
[03:32:22] but I've learned from watching you from watching lathe from watching other leaders you know Scott
[03:32:28] who is my next OSC and mentors along the road and making mistakes all these tried and true lessons
[03:32:36] I've been fortunate to make those mistakes and learn from them and you know I wish I had
[03:32:45] a book like that to teach me but maybe wouldn't have been effective maybe it requires a little
[03:32:50] bit of suffering through those mistakes to really hit home there's there's certain things that you
[03:32:55] can learn from a book there's certain things you can't one thing that's nice is you for people
[03:32:59] that give me feedback on these books. Lay for give lay feedback on these books is if they have a
[03:33:05] little bit of context man you look at them and you go every but every single person that reads
[03:33:10] one of these books because I wish I would add this book and you know what I respond with I wish I had
[03:33:14] it too I wish I'd have to learn these lessons the hard way but sometimes sometimes sometimes that's
[03:33:20] the way you're gonna learn them but sometimes I mean it's not like anything we've talked about
[03:33:24] today is super novel that people haven't heard you need there's a right time and a right place to
[03:33:31] hear the lesson and advice and sometimes I'm certain a lot of the lessons I follow and principal
[03:33:38] guiding principles I live by every day I'm serving with humility remembering the sacrifices of others
[03:33:45] respecting everyone not taking things for granted those were said to me as a kid I just wasn't in the
[03:33:52] right frame of mind to receive those lessons so I firmly believe that people need to be ready
[03:33:59] to be mentored and to be taught well that's the that's what he melodies all about right and
[03:34:06] that one of the things that I talk about is the one person that you can't turn into a good
[03:34:11] leader is the one that's not humble because they're not listening to what you say and they're not
[03:34:15] accepting any guidance and so you're not gonna be able to get them to move in the right direction
[03:34:20] they're just gonna continue to suck as a leader so you get into Harvard and you know I know
[03:34:31] I read that letter that I know I know Rayford wrote you letters I mean we all did everything we could
[03:34:35] to support you getting in you got into Harvard but then the navy wasn't gonna let you go
[03:34:45] what happened that's right
[03:34:46] I haven't thought about this in a long time because this is why you owe me a six pack
[03:34:54] more than that so when the instruction for this seeming to animal program I was in was written
[03:35:03] it didn't take into context the various programs that would be there to support medical school
[03:35:10] and I can throw out a bunch of fancy language but basically there were three avenues to go to
[03:35:16] medical school through the military there was useis the uniform services of health science
[03:35:24] I yes the military medical school there was two routes to go to a civilian medical school one was
[03:35:32] basically a scholarship where they paid for school and another one was they keep you active duty
[03:35:39] as an unlisted person but you would have to pay your own tuition
[03:35:42] me having already been in the navy for ten years wanted to stay in the navy for many reasons
[03:35:51] one I had already had a scholarship to Harvard as well as generous financially that paid a hundred
[03:35:58] percent of my tuition so I didn't need the scholarship to pay for school what I did need
[03:36:04] was the trich hair benefits and the salary to support my growing family into the navy it's
[03:36:10] it's essentially the same cost right so my program the seaming animal program did not take into consideration
[03:36:19] the program where you stay in listed and there wasn't because it wasn't a good route it just
[03:36:26] wasn't considered because the time of the instruction was written that in listed program wasn't written
[03:36:32] and I wanted to apply to that on the program but was being told by my my you know my
[03:36:41] superiors at the rots unit that I couldn't do it because of the instruction and that's I'm
[03:36:48] for I am not I am not a believer in circumventing the chain of command and in this case I let my
[03:37:02] who's a lieutenant like proctor let him know like I'd like to see if I can pursue this avenue
[03:37:09] and a parallel path and trying to get approval for this and the response I got was a good luck and
[03:37:18] that's when I reached out to you and told you the situation and you asked a specific officer
[03:37:29] who I still actually keep in touch with because I remember he did not know who I was but
[03:37:35] the very fact that we were both from the same brotherhood from teams that he went out of his way
[03:37:42] and he was working I think in buepers or some personnel command that had access to these types
[03:37:48] to the people that can make these types of decisions and he was able to secure or at least share
[03:37:53] this story what I was going through to the right people and once those right people heard the
[03:37:58] situation is like well that's easy of course it just wasn't it wasn't considered because it's a
[03:38:02] clerical thing not because it's not like shouldn't be allowed so once the right people heard
[03:38:07] the story that yeah absolutely will support you and it wouldn't have been made possible if it wasn't
[03:38:13] for the support of the teams yeah that was awesome and my role was just knowing who to call
[03:38:20] and you know I had you know no power but the people that people that you know and the
[03:38:26] relationship that you build over time is like hey guys here's what's going on and the
[03:38:31] guys that are in powerful positions or in the right position and the right spot with the right
[03:38:36] poll can make things happen and and they do it for the right reasons why like just like you
[03:38:40] said it wasn't because it wasn't the right thing was absolutely the right thing to do it's like
[03:38:44] hey we got an opportunity for a guy to go to Harvard Medical School and be able to support his
[03:38:49] family with what he's doing that who who could possibly think that's not a freaking awesome idea
[03:38:55] and that's all it needed just needed a little light shed on it I'll always be indebted in great
[03:39:01] for the action to those to go out on a limb and support me and I think like you said it goes to
[03:39:10] show when you are in a position to be able to help someone and it's for the right reasons and it's
[03:39:15] done responsibly you should do that that's the right human thing to do is to help others on their path
[03:39:22] now what when you said going from US going from the teams to USD and then from USD
[03:39:29] to medical school you said that was a hard transition too going to medical school was that
[03:39:34] am I catching that right did I hear that right was not as Harvard transition as the teams
[03:39:39] to just civilian life in general I would say that that and that was like the transitions to the
[03:39:44] teams to non teams because you said to yourself but I joined the Navy at 18 years old I was
[03:39:52] completely indoctrinated into the military and you like to think there's bubbles everywhere right we
[03:39:59] all everyone lives in a bubble to a certain extent and in the military we like to pride ourselves
[03:40:05] in a plethora of wide ranging experiences but if you think and we like to compare ourselves to
[03:40:12] maybe civilians or people who are not don't have those opportunities to get those types of
[03:40:18] overseas experiences but if you think for a second that you may not be in a bubble yourself just
[03:40:23] because you're in the military you're wrong I was in that bubble and I quickly discovered that I was
[03:40:31] indoctrinated and yes I went to a very liberal arts college and I may not have
[03:40:39] agreed with everything that was discussed but you know what learning to respectfully voice my opinion
[03:40:45] and listen to others voice their opinions is so important to being a productive member of society
[03:40:52] so I am so thankful that I was able to step outside of my bubble into the civilian world and see
[03:41:00] how operations are done on that side and I it just helped me be a more rounded person a more rounded
[03:41:07] human being and I'm so thankful it's just that it was very painful because I was not ready for
[03:41:15] that transition and I don't I think a lot of veterans are not ready as well and I think that's
[03:41:19] why it's a lot of times it's hard for veterans to transition from the military into civilian life
[03:41:27] how hard was a Harvard medical school for you it was it was hard it was
[03:41:34] what does a day look like or what is a week either a day or a week like what does that look like
[03:41:38] going Harvard medical school I mean for me was juggling the demand of a growing family you know
[03:41:45] my head my first child my second child was born during medical school my third child is born
[03:41:50] during internship so you didn't get my sleep and you just learned to optimize your day like you
[03:41:57] can't make more hours in a day and this is when I learned that becoming a morning person was
[03:42:02] a better way to optimize my day so and I I am not a genius by any means I consider myself very
[03:42:11] average physically mentally it's just that I feel that I can stick with the goals and have
[03:42:18] deferred gratification to help support me for my goals that's it work working hard is all I know
[03:42:26] I can do to make up for any advantages natural or otherwise that I don't have so I do feel that
[03:42:34] I had to study more than the average student at Harvard medical school and there were some smart
[03:42:39] folks there and on top of having personal responsibilities to being a father and a husband
[03:42:46] those were challenging so I learned that hey I need to wake up super early study in my most
[03:42:53] optimum time workout and that's it was just learning these changes to optimize my life
[03:43:01] how early would you wake up in medical school I was waking up around 330
[03:43:09] and then what you maintain your workouts all the time no at what point at what was that kind of
[03:43:15] one of the early things to go did you hang on to it as long as you could it it lost I lost it my
[03:43:20] first year and I I you know in your 20s you can eat junk food you can get away with all these
[03:43:27] things you can work off any bad diet you have as you get to your later 20s and your 30s like you
[03:43:34] can't do that you have to eat well and I was getting I was overweight in first year of med school
[03:43:41] and there came a point like I can't do this to myself like this main team in my health is
[03:43:47] for my sanity for my health and I owe it like I don't care if I'm super busy I should be
[03:43:55] able to find a half hour an hour and so I would say towards the second and third I'm just
[03:43:59] that first year I lost sight of that and then after that bought a treadmill bought weights
[03:44:06] in our my little basement so I had no reason not to work out so then I was waking up super early
[03:44:11] giving my work out in first thing in the morning and then just trying to crush as much studying
[03:44:15] as I could in the in the morning hours because I knew once I came home from school there's no work
[03:44:21] getting done for hours because my son and my wife I mean they I need to be there for them and a
[03:44:27] lot of times it wasn't I was not the best husband and father during those years
[03:44:36] and that's because you got an exam in two days or you got a paper do and then just that's you're just
[03:44:40] don't you can't do it yeah I I was not I don't think able to do that very well I tried but I
[03:44:49] I think I could have done better at what point did you decide maybe going into space would be a good
[03:44:56] idea so we talked about accidents and we call whatever we want I have no plan I had no plan to do
[03:45:03] any of these things I we talked about I had no plan to be a doctor it's just something that came
[03:45:07] out of deployment of a body of seeing the compassion and the good that physicians and nurses were
[03:45:16] doing to our brothers and sisters who were wounded in combat and I wanted to be able to do that type
[03:45:21] of good as well and that's why I directed to medicine space was never on the horizon we talked a
[03:45:27] little bit about where I came from that scared little boy and grew up under my father shadow I
[03:45:35] never thought I could have been a seal or a doctor or an astronaut there's no way it was a different
[03:45:44] life and I was a different person and the first time I heard about NASA and this opportunity I don't
[03:45:55] I don't have a great story for it it's just I heard about being national and it's like that's kind of
[03:46:03] interesting when we're like other than space exploration like what you do and learning about the
[03:46:08] impact that national arts can have on our next generation and what Apollo did for our country I mean
[03:46:15] in the 60s we were able to land a human on the moon with that technology
[03:46:23] despite a growing race with Russia and all the politics going on during that era
[03:46:32] Kennedy's assassination we were able to complete that and that secured American preeminence
[03:46:39] in science technology for decades to come I certainly believe that and the benefits we got from that
[03:46:47] are you can't count that and learning a little bit more about that and how astronauts have
[03:46:54] had the opportunity to represent humanity for good and bring together countries in a way that
[03:47:05] politics and alliances cannot do when you talk to some of the Apollo astronauts who landed on the moon
[03:47:13] and they did their international travel the comment the feedback they would get from people would be
[03:47:20] we did it we did it together it wasn't you Americans did it it was we did it and that was
[03:47:28] powerful that countries could come together and see that as a human accomplishment so there's
[03:47:35] something about space that takes away those borders because when you're up there you don't see
[03:47:41] these distinct borders between countries you just see a lot of blue and a lot of land and you see
[03:47:48] how fragile the planet is so once I learned a little bit about that type of impact and that
[03:47:57] you can have a huge impact on the next generation of explorers of scientists of people who want to
[03:48:03] be a better version of themselves maybe I could reach out to those kids just like me who are scared
[03:48:12] tired who don't think they can amount to anything who don't think they're worth anything if I could
[03:48:20] reach out to them and let them know that hey doesn't matter where you're from with the right attitude
[03:48:28] with the right hard work if you get up every time you fail you can amount to something and you can do
[03:48:35] positive work you can leave a good impact a positive mark for our world that meant a lot to me
[03:48:45] and that's when I put my name in the hat and wanted to be a nationalot because it was completely
[03:48:53] consistent with my goals that I promised Mikey Mark Ryan long list of our brothers who are not
[03:49:01] here with us today that I would for the rest of my life do something to impact positive
[03:49:09] good in our world is it um was it is there a recruiter that comes around I mean where did you
[03:49:18] dare pick up a brochure in class where did you you must have the idea get you must have been watching
[03:49:25] you know a movie or something and gone wow that where did come from you know so I was
[03:49:30] I through just rain and circumstances got in met a action a former astronaut named Scott parents and
[03:49:37] ski who was is also a physician and served with the shuttle during the shuttle era and had a lot of
[03:49:45] great missions and a huge impact and listened to him talk passionately about our space program
[03:49:52] that kind of gave me the idea and then just like in the teams I just researched what it meant to be
[03:49:57] what the requirements were and the realized I actually like my math degree was consistent with that
[03:50:04] getting a medical degree having the operational experience working in close teams making hard
[03:50:10] decisions with limited data under constrained times those were all consistent with the traits and
[03:50:18] experiences that NASA was looking for throw so through an accident or whatever you want to call it
[03:50:25] I was able to have this privilege and honor to serve our astronaut core what's that screening
[03:50:33] process how many interviews did you go through before they gave you the yet the up check so
[03:50:41] there are I can't go into great detail of of this just because of the sensitivity around
[03:50:50] application to actually right now coisently NASA is looking for the next class of astronauts
[03:50:57] I know I saw that on your Instagram till till the end of March which Johnny Kims out recruit in the
[03:51:02] for NASA so they keep it a little bit they keep it a little bit um I don't want to say secret but
[03:51:09] they keep it somewhat a little bit of a mystery I don't say they they there's just some finer details
[03:51:16] about the process that are not generally um public knowledge I mean I think I think you're probably
[03:51:22] finding on Google there are I went through a couple interviews there's a process where you're screened
[03:51:28] based on your paper application and they reach out to references letters of recommendation
[03:51:34] and then they invite you for an interview and you're there for three or four days going through an
[03:51:39] interview doing these tests medical tests and also like teen based tests where you're working with
[03:51:47] people that you have worked before and seeing how you saw the problem and they're observing how you
[03:51:51] react all right let's see bro I know this stuff might be sensitive and everything but you got to
[03:51:55] give me at least one cool thing that they I want to know that they put you in like an escape room I
[03:52:01] want to know that you had to like they were they were had they were shouldn't paint ball at you
[03:52:06] while you were doing math problems come on give me something you know indulge my fantasy a little bit
[03:52:13] nothing like that the it was fun really really funny you do things that you have never done before
[03:52:21] there were some obstacles like you'd be like hey you get a piece of paper and you're with your
[03:52:26] your group and you're like hey you need to get to from point eight a point b but you can't touch
[03:52:31] the grass in between you in point eight point b and you might have like a barrel or a piece of wood or
[03:52:37] some string or something you need to devise a way to utilize the resources you have and work
[03:52:44] effectively in a team to like accomplish your mission and that's like just one example of some
[03:52:50] of the team based things and that's publicly out there now what what I like about that what's interesting
[03:52:56] so let's talk about this in my last book the sometimes people feel like when they when they're
[03:53:03] trying to show leadership what they need to do is like step up and tell everyone what to do and
[03:53:09] it's interesting to me because I know what you're like and I know that I know that you wouldn't
[03:53:14] necessarily be the guy who goes oh I never will listen up this is how we're going to get the barrel you
[03:53:18] be like okay let's let's figure hey anyone got a good idea what do you think of this what do you think of
[03:53:22] that and I just think it's a good I think you're like living proof because sometimes I get push back of
[03:53:30] we don't if you don't step up no one's going to notice you if you don't start barking orders no one's
[03:53:35] going to listen to you and I have to tell people over and over again that's not true I mean how many
[03:53:39] times did you hear me yell at life or Seth or anyone in task in a bruiser and our
[03:53:47] emergency single time and that's not something I would you praise in public but criticize in public is
[03:53:56] is not I cannot think of a situation where that is a good idea to humiliate or be little
[03:54:03] a subordinate that is that is not in gender trust that is a very immature thing to do and that's
[03:54:09] what we talk about like letting your motion take control your ego take control of your actions
[03:54:17] you know it's not something I've ever seen and and people look at me and they judge a book by the
[03:54:22] cover and they think oh juggle man can you imagine you must just been crazy yell it's like no
[03:54:28] no doesn't work and that's what I like about like we even just this little tidbit you're given us
[03:54:34] is to convince people to say listen if you want to be in charge that doesn't mean you bark orders
[03:54:40] actually someone that's good will start off by listening to one of the people have to say
[03:54:44] taking other opinions let's formulate a good plan together and those things are so important and
[03:54:49] it's your proof and I'm only imagining that when you were given a task there was a couple
[03:54:56] people in the group that like oh my god listen to me and I bet the the judges for lack of a better
[03:55:02] word wrote down okay bill over here he really likes to bark orders and tell everyone what to do
[03:55:08] and that's not going to go for well being part of a team absolutely I mean being good leader is
[03:55:13] being a good follower first and we talked about having that emotional human social intelligence
[03:55:20] of what to do and when to do it and how you do it and that's so important how you craft that language
[03:55:26] and that tone of voice I mean I think there is no template to leadership and people need to find
[03:55:33] their own way of executing that for me I listen I sit back and I am a big believer in quality
[03:55:44] over quantity of what you say in my experience the less you say but the more thoughtful it is
[03:55:53] the more people listen the more you speak and oftentimes when you speak a lot it's less thoughtful
[03:56:03] the less people listen yeah and I try and exercise that and everything I do especially at NASA
[03:56:13] and learning to it's very applicable in a seal puttune learning to gain currency when I mean my
[03:56:22] currency you can call it reputation whatever you want leadership capital capital gaining this capital
[03:56:29] this currency by at least what I've seen to be effective for others and myself is
[03:56:37] shutting up and doing a good job and not complaining but speaking up when it is appropriate
[03:56:44] respectfully and thoughtfully you gain that currency so that hopefully one day when you do need
[03:56:52] to bark orders because of time sensitivity or just the situation calls for it you can cash in
[03:56:59] that currency you've gained enough and that the people around your teammates be like Roger that I'm
[03:57:05] going to follow because you have gained my trust so there's a time for everything and at least
[03:57:17] for me I found that barking orders to especially to people you don't know is probably very poor form
[03:57:23] doesn't work very well and yeah the the code I have in that book over and over again is
[03:57:30] the last you talk the more people listen I in my experience I found that to be true so okay so
[03:57:38] you get selected all right and you do all kinds of cool tests did we we can't even talk about
[03:57:47] them echo Charles you know that some proof room that they do like an army get it you're watching
[03:57:52] moving I have is that the one where they blow up the meteor that's right yeah so remember
[03:57:59] they put them in that soundproof room and they give them a bunch of questions and they're like hey
[03:58:02] don't go crazy or whatever I don't remember this part but keep going I was wondering if you did that
[03:58:10] not that I remember there were some long I mean a lot of interviews a lot of tests and I mean
[03:58:20] you're running on and I really can't get into the details but taking like these personality
[03:58:24] these psychology tests yeah that's what they're trying to depict there yeah see if they could
[03:58:30] like keep it together out there whatever right yeah but it's not like I I think you can learn a lot
[03:58:39] about someone I think you learn the most about someone you squeeze them right because in an eight to five
[03:58:47] office job you can put on a mask and be whoever you want to be for that period of time you can
[03:58:53] fool a lot of people but when people are squeezed when you strip away that comfort and they're
[03:59:00] tired and hungry and cold and suffering that armor just gets melted away and you start to see
[03:59:07] true core characteristics and that's why we do hell leak and buds right you want to strip away
[03:59:14] all that armor and see what is left of that person if that is someone you want by your side
[03:59:20] when you aren't your darkest days because you're getting you're in the heat of battle and you're getting
[03:59:27] fired upon you want that person that you know is not going to quit now I'm not saying
[03:59:36] the cheapest and easiest way to find candidates is through a rock on them and say margin this
[03:59:41] direction and I won't tell you and stop when I tell you I think you would get certainly a type of
[03:59:47] profile of person to not quit and to pursue on even not knowing when they'll ever stop but that
[03:59:57] we need to be a little bit more thoughtful of who we're trying to represent our species our country
[04:00:03] for space exploration you don't want otherwise we just have a like a part of like a core of soldiers
[04:00:11] and operators but that's we want people who have that dynamic leadership who understand human
[04:00:19] emotion who can speak to a classroom of fifth graders or third graders can can gardeners
[04:00:25] and share that passion of reading or space exploration and why it's important to study the
[04:00:30] sciences but at the or at the same time talk to a group of engineers and explain to them hey
[04:00:35] respectfully why you need a window in your vehicle because to land appropriately or explaining
[04:00:45] to management why you need to do these certain training activities even though they're really
[04:00:50] expensive or there may be risk to involve like we need to maintain our currency in jets
[04:00:57] because it's an operational environment where we had to make real time decisions that have real
[04:01:03] risks so that we can stay sharp and learn to exercise that operation decision making during stressful times
[04:01:12] so you need someone who can fill all these roles in and push when going gets tough and
[04:01:20] the core tries to use various tests to make sure we're selecting for the right people that can
[04:01:27] do all those things so once you get selected and then it's time to start the training and
[04:01:37] give me give us like an overview of the training what's the pipeline start off with what's like
[04:01:42] the hardest parts and then where does it where does it feel like you kind of level off and you're feeling
[04:01:47] good about it you know every day is different it's I explain it like being in grad school which is
[04:01:54] a more physical component to it I mean there's certain checks in the boxes you need to do like
[04:02:00] you need to get to certain proficiency in speaking Russian and learning to fly the jet if you're
[04:02:06] a pilot flying front seat I'm not a formal military pilot so I had to learn how to be a
[04:02:15] to be an appropriate crew member an effective crew member we are
[04:02:18] serving with a pilot and learning to fly the jet appropriately and work together to complete that
[04:02:25] mission you're learning engineering about the suit the space suit you're in or the
[04:02:30] international space station learning all the different components that heating the cooling
[04:02:34] the electrical components how it recycles water how it recycles urine
[04:02:41] then learning how to operate in the space suit we have this huge pool that has a one-to-one scale of
[04:02:47] the space station in Houston and learning because we don't have in a way to emulate zero gravity on
[04:02:53] our thought obviously but we have buoyancy and we can make neutral buoyancy to emulate what it's
[04:03:01] like to be in a zero or microgravity environment and how it feels to work in a pressurized suit
[04:03:08] to move along and replace batteries work working drills on the space station and I can you learn
[04:03:15] geology we go on trips to learn about various aspects of rock formations how they form why they form
[04:03:21] what's important because this is all relevant we go to Mars we go to the moon we may not be
[04:03:26] able to bring the subject matter experts we don't need to be the subject matter experts we need to
[04:03:30] know in understand we need to have a foundation so that we can go out make effective use of the time
[04:03:36] we have to get the rocks that subject matter experts at home do think is useful so that we can learn
[04:03:43] more about the moon about the Mars and bring that knowledge back to Earth to benefit humanity
[04:03:51] so every day is different does everybody on the team well do you get assigned to like a
[04:03:59] opportunity or a team or are you assigned to a certain group of people that you're going to go on
[04:04:04] a mission together eventually you do in your career when you first show up you're what's called an
[04:04:09] ask can ask a lot candidate so you go through and you you almost do everything together
[04:04:18] did you graduate already from ask can school I did yeah and that was the that was the big
[04:04:23] graduation to replace in January January yes you so once that when you're going through that school
[04:04:30] is that the initial like okay you're learning Russian okay now you're learning about the space
[04:04:34] you're okay now you're working in a weightless environment yep you're learning it's kind of like
[04:04:38] SKT you're learning the basics of what it's like to be an effective astronaut but that training
[04:04:44] never goes away like just like being a seal you don't stop shooting just because you made it
[04:04:47] through SKT it's just the beginning of your of your learning of your professional development and
[04:04:55] you're maintaining all of that so you continue all of those activities maintain speaking your
[04:05:01] Russian practicing in the space you'd flying in a jet you know weekly and then supporting on
[04:05:07] going mission so if you're not assigned which I am not assigned I mean there's a pool of
[04:05:14] astronaut that are always supporting on going missions because that's a priority is supporting on
[04:05:18] going missions and right now we have astronauts that have man the international space station for
[04:05:24] 20 years continuously there are people adult where we have been orbiting in man presence in the
[04:05:34] space station one of the people have been alive and we are looking to go back to the moon in 2024
[04:05:42] with our eyes set for deeper exploration two Mars in beyond but it starts off with goodning
[04:05:48] back to the moon and sitting and deploying a sustained presence so our jobs right now if you're not
[04:05:58] assigned to support those ongoing missions in various capacities and later down the road if you are assigned
[04:06:06] then you are depending on the mission you are working more closely with the other people assigned
[04:06:11] to that mission and that might be like a pro that might be like a workout like you find out
[04:06:16] your assigned to a mission maybe a year or two years before and you're working closely with that
[04:06:21] crew instead of a platoon it's a crew and then you go on a mission and now typically missions are
[04:06:28] kind of like deployments there about six seven months sometimes that are long as times are shorter
[04:06:33] an example of a mission would be going to the space station yes that is right now that is the only
[04:06:40] mission that we have is supporting our space station until 2023 in the NERGNOS science someone that's
[04:06:46] going to go to the moon our team absolutely we're under a program that we have called Artemis
[04:06:51] we will send the first woman in the next man back to the moon and have our sights set with boots
[04:06:59] on the ground on the moon by 2024 and that that hasn't been a sign yet and you said sustained
[04:07:07] presence on the moon sustained while getting to the moon by 2024 at this current time
[04:07:13] is not we are not planning on having sustained presence in 2024 by 2028 we are planning on having
[04:07:19] sustained presence on the moon so having the lunar outpost and learning what it's like to live
[04:07:27] called a planetary haka-cou-boon learning what it's like like having challenges and struggles because
[04:07:35] the space station is 250 miles away it's a four-hour trip if something bad happens on the space
[04:07:41] station it's reassuring knowing that there is a vehicle a Soyuz vehicle which is a Russian vehicle
[04:07:49] waiting there to take our crew members back to Earth if needed the moon is longer it's four-ish
[04:07:57] days to get back Mars that's even longer we're talking about months so it's prudent that we learn
[04:08:06] as much as we can but what it's like to live on a different planetary body like the moon before we
[04:08:13] try and get to Mars and that's what having sustained presence on the moon is all about
[04:08:22] the when when do you think you'll get assigned to a crew is it even noble no and it doesn't
[04:08:32] really matter because you're just going to keep doing your job exactly it's irrelevant I
[04:08:39] I still have and hope that I will continue to have this attitude where I'm just happy to be where I am
[04:08:47] I have an immense opportunity that so many deserving people don't have to work in NASA to be in the
[04:08:54] astronaut core that if I never if I never flew it would still be an honor to serve and who knows
[04:09:02] something medical can she can come up an injury can come up where I may be ineligible to for space flight
[04:09:08] it's not time wasted that's not I would still be very feel very privileged and it'd be a huge
[04:09:15] honor to support on going missions so to me I have I don't know when I'll be assigned and I don't care
[04:09:23] I will be happy with whatever I had the honor of doing and I will fulfill any role to the best
[04:09:29] my ability future is bright well listen Johnny we've actually been going out at for a little over four
[04:09:39] hours right now I know we went through your whole life which is not bad in four hours
[04:09:47] what I know people are going to want to contact you talk to you you know getting touch with you
[04:09:54] I know that you're on social media now big time unfortunately I say my words carefully
[04:10:02] but yeah the well it's pretty awesome that in this day and age you know people can connect with you
[04:10:14] and you know I I was very reluctant to start the social media thing I was actually
[04:10:21] well quite frankly mostly generally life's wife who was like hey idiot you need to get on social
[04:10:29] media so you can connect with people and and sure enough I can't even I can't even begin to tell you the amount of
[04:10:34] incredible conversations feedback suggestions information questions that have that has come through
[04:10:43] social media so even though I know you're probably not super comfortable with it I bet you'll find
[04:10:50] that man it's a great way to communicate with other people to to share things with other people
[04:10:56] to share daily life to explain things to people to help people out I mean I think you're going to
[04:11:02] you're going to end up using it for a positive tool which it at look it can be negative all
[04:11:07] day long and you can sit on there you can find people that just want to just just belittle other
[04:11:14] people and make fun of things and tear the world down it's actually not that hard to avoid those
[04:11:19] people and it's really easy to find people that are are looking to learn share grow help
[04:11:27] the social media is filled with that stuff as well well said I have I had zero internet
[04:11:38] presence and I have potentially not have had any social media accounts before NASA and even for the
[04:11:45] first year and a half at being an NASA just because I have such a visceral feeling with social media
[04:11:52] not because I'm not trying to blame the platform because I think we all as human should take
[04:11:57] accountability for our actions and how we use our tools but narcissism is perhaps one of the biggest
[04:12:04] poisons in our society and narcissism breeds narcissism in a lot of times the way I've seen
[04:12:10] social media used as a platform to promote that and when children see that self promotion that
[04:12:18] self idolization they and then want to be YouTube stars and I'm not saying that that's I'm not
[04:12:27] saying that's a bad thing I think people should pursue their dreams but I think it requires some
[04:12:31] self reflection and thoughtfulness as a society of what we value and when you have narcissism
[04:12:39] as a value trait you were by definition putting yourself above others and I think that is
[04:12:47] not sustainable for a growing and evolving society and that's why I find service very sustainable
[04:12:57] because by definition you are putting others before yourself one of my favorite quotes is from Dr.
[04:13:07] Martin Luther King and it's something along the lines of everyone is capable of greatness
[04:13:13] not fame but greatness because greatness is determined by service and I think sometimes people
[04:13:23] think the definition of success is that everyone in the world knows their name and I think
[04:13:31] they're missing the point when that is the goal they're trying to seek and I sometimes see social
[04:13:37] media used in that but I agree with you that when used responsibly respectfully tactfully thoughtfully
[04:13:46] it can be a platform for good and what made me change my mind about actually having a social
[04:13:55] media and I'm not very active I try to make a post a week a buddy of mine from the team said you
[04:14:02] know look you have an opportunity that most people in this world will never have and people just
[04:14:09] want to share in some of what you do and learn about it and if you are using it responsibly
[04:14:16] not for self promotion but to promote others and to share some of the cool science and inspire
[04:14:23] kids adults then you owe it to do that and that was sent to me still about a year before I
[04:14:33] opened up an application open up a platform but it always stuck with me and I guess that's why
[04:14:43] I have been more okay with with having that because I feel that it can be a force for good
[04:14:50] way to use responsibly well with the longest social media preamble ever Johnny Kim is at Johnny Kim
[04:15:02] USA uh I go you're any questions yeah so how do I become an astronaut hypothetically of course
[04:15:10] I mean you you mentioned the application process like what can you just roll into NASA and be like
[04:15:14] hey I want to work here give you an application or what thank you for asking it to draw them
[04:15:19] happy to share that um if you Google NASA astronaut applications you will find a plethora of links
[04:15:27] that describe our requirements and great detail and just off the top my head you need a college
[04:15:34] degree an undergraduate degree in a STEM field as well as a master's degree in a STEM field that's a
[04:15:41] science technology engineering mathematics medicine does count biosciences counts
[04:15:46] like some degrees like nurse and degree or maybe like a physical education degree don't count
[04:15:54] you can find more details online and you need a couple years of work experience and then
[04:16:00] you meet most of the requirements there you can find out on NASA.gov and applications are open right now
[04:16:08] also I noticed your shirt is that like a special you know I mean can I get a shirt like that or
[04:16:13] oh yeah kind of exclusive no I'm not at all the the NASA the most recognized NASA meet we call the
[04:16:19] meatball logo is owned by NASA but we license it out for free right in one so you can just
[04:16:26] go on a Google shop at your favorite store and find a NASA shirt well if they license it out for free
[04:16:32] there may be Jacob podcast NASA sure that's coming at you any Kim addition is it any Kim addition
[04:16:38] is right on thanks Johnny Kim Johnny I know we've been going out for a while but just any other
[04:16:45] closing thoughts from you I'd just like to say thank you to everyone that's had the grace
[04:16:56] in the patience to tolerate my mistakes along my path and care enough to want me to be a better human being
[04:17:04] to thank my mom for being my first hero and teaching me what it means to be strong
[04:17:16] and most importantly I don't think words can ever give the recognition or explain articulate
[04:17:24] the appreciation I have but thank you to my wife and my kids for supporting me for being
[04:17:37] selfless so that I could pursue my dreams and for loving me awesome awesome I know this was kind of a
[04:17:52] long time coming from the beginning you had to wait till you graduated from astronaut school which
[04:18:00] people thought I was kidding when I said he's got a graduate from astronaut school some people took it
[04:18:06] as me saying I'm not going to have some guy that's not even graduated from astronaut school
[04:18:13] in the podcast he needs to graduate first and I had to go back and explain no I'm just saying you know
[04:18:20] he's under the protocols of NASA and I think it worked out just so that I can speak more
[04:18:27] intelligently about the things that we do in NASA and also like the last thing you want to do
[04:18:32] when he's show up as in due guys somewhere is about like you're an expert at something right
[04:18:37] I mean that's just completely inconsistent with our ethos yeah well I'm glad that we waited
[04:18:46] so glad that you're able to come on and know this is the first interview that you've done
[04:18:49] you probably have a ton more I appreciate you you hold them out because it took us a little time
[04:18:53] to get this coordinated it's an honor for me to have you on here so thanks for coming on and more
[04:18:59] important you know obviously thank you for everything that you did for me for for task
[04:19:06] university or everything you did for the teams everything that you have done and are continuing
[04:19:15] to do for the Navy for NASA and for our great nation it's an honor to know you and thanks for coming
[04:19:24] on man you're welcome and the same goes back to you so thank you for teaching us what it means
[04:19:32] to be a warrior to be a follower a leader to be humble and for caring and loving the men you
[04:19:42] served with long after we've served together it's a relationship I've always been appreciative
[04:19:50] of and I know that at any time I could call you and ask you for help just like I can call any
[04:19:58] number of our teammates and they would drop everything to be there yes indeed brother that's it
[04:20:06] that's what it is thanks for coming on man and with that Johnny Kim has left the building
[04:20:21] not much to say after that one pretty awesome yes and you know a lot of times people they make
[04:20:29] um little comments about Johnny Kim on social media even though he he's not on social media but
[04:20:36] they make comments about him and what they say is something along the lines of
[04:20:43] Navy Zale Harvard Doctor astronaut yes I'm a loser you know everyone feels bad because they
[04:20:54] haven't done as much as Johnny Kim much under achievers bunch of under achievers now look we may not
[04:21:01] be able to become a seal or a doctor or an astronaut right those are some good goals maybe a
[04:21:09] little bit lofty for for an everyday jack like myself that being said maybe we could make some
[04:21:21] goals maybe we could try to become a little bit better in our lives I think that's a I think that's
[04:21:28] a solid thing to do do you agree I agree just like Johnny Kim said on the worry kid podcast because he was
[04:21:36] a guess on there as well giant leaps are done with small steps yeah which is a fitting quote you know
[04:21:45] you guys the whole small step for man giant leap for mankind right so Johnny has confirmed that
[04:21:55] now what I would like to say I think that there are some kind of small steps that we can take in life
[04:22:03] to sort of start moving in the right direction in a powerful direction just what do you think
[04:22:09] well I think among many things we want to stay fit we want to stay capable and strong fit strong
[04:22:17] capable agree that's that's a good bench what do we want to have mental clarity mental clarity yes
[04:22:23] okay good yeah any suggestions on yes those arenas so let's start with your jiu-jitsu we do jiu-jitsu
[04:22:29] yes we do yes sir we can't not do jiu-jitsu it's hard not to jiu-jitsu look you can not do jiu-jitsu
[04:22:38] but you're much better off in every spectrum of your life if you do do jiu-jitsu yes sir so let's do
[04:22:45] jiu-jitsu yeah so well you got to see in the game right you're doing ghee you're doing no ghee
[04:22:50] great both best when you're doing ghee you get an origin ghee that's the kind of ghee you get
[04:22:55] no one asked me that anymore I'm glad that means like we know the words out the word is out so we're
[04:23:01] going to maintain that word origin ghee factually factually the best ghee's happened to be made in America
[04:23:08] you know some people have thrown that as being kind of like one of your words that you use what factually
[04:23:15] cool yeah i mean i'm gonna say factually you do use that word like a thing
[04:23:19] it's actually two we act well nonetheless yes origin main dot com is where you can get your ghee
[04:23:27] for that's you jiu-jitsu you're gonna do no ghee there's rash cards on there as well for also for
[04:23:33] that's you jiu-jitsu also for that's you jiu-jitsu or other things you know also if you're not
[04:23:38] doing jiu-jitsu you're taking a break you know or you're doing some social distancing or something like this
[04:23:44] you know whatever the case may be no worries we got some other stuff on there to wear is what
[04:23:50] government wise garment wise yes body covering items sure yeah as it were uh jeans
[04:23:58] to be more specific so two two uh what uh models de calm models yeah i think so yeah
[04:24:05] things models yeah the regular call regular they're called the factory jeans factually jeans
[04:24:12] and i guess you would truly classify them as medium weight okay they're kind of like normal they're
[04:24:18] normal yeah just normal jeans yes those are called the factory jeans people have been asked me
[04:24:22] what the difference because the other model is called the other model is simply called delta 68
[04:24:29] so the delta 68 jeans which are named in honor of my four fathers in Vietnam that fought in the
[04:24:40] May Kong delta and at some point said you know what our normal fittygs aren't strong enough
[04:24:47] for combat and they went to good old fashioned blue jeans and so in their honor we have a little
[04:24:55] some called the delta 68 jeans and so they're a little lighter weight because they're for the
[04:25:01] jungle by the way but they are flexible because we didn't just we didn't go to a lullsco
[04:25:07] yeah because in honor of team guys guess what team guys adapt and adjust and make things better so we
[04:25:14] took the original blue jeans kept the spirit kept the strength kept the good components but made them
[04:25:21] better you got a little something called flexible so there's your delta 68 jeans oh sorry
[04:25:30] there's your delta 68 jeans very flexible adaptable oh that's the functional for sure really
[04:25:40] yes 100% you don't need to add another word to that no but I will add the word comfort not
[04:25:46] in application to delta 68 jeans these are the joggers the sweat suits and other uh leisure or active
[04:25:53] wear but we're not selling any leisure wear period and the story stop okay okay I dig it but when I'm exercising
[04:26:01] my leisure we're engaging in my leisure activities I'm gonna have the joggers or maybe when I'm
[04:26:08] jogging whichever you see I'm saying it's leisure and active it's what I'm saying
[04:26:14] anyway you do you yeah yeah see you do understand this what I like about you one of the many things
[04:26:19] anyway yes origin mate dot com that's where you can get all these cool things also supplements
[04:26:25] keep you in the game join where fair for you joins krill or for you for you join super krill oils
[04:26:30] what it's called milk additional protein in the form of a dessert multiple flavors
[04:26:37] they are multiple flavors all they all taste like dessert straight up straight up dessert yes also
[04:26:44] discipline discipline the pre mission drink I'll make this out listen to this discipline can
[04:26:54] come in many forms because you can get it in a powder you get it again and you can get it as a
[04:27:00] fill nonetheless discipline it's good for your brain and your body how about that that's good that's
[04:27:08] simple and if you like beverages if you like to drink things you'll like these you know they
[04:27:16] they will taste they will satisfy your taste with a 100% accuracy and fulfillment you'll be stoked
[04:27:23] so it's not like you're going to joke this down no you'll be your I drink jockel pomer
[04:27:28] discipline all day long tasty taste good with you it tastes like you went to the best restaurant
[04:27:34] you know that serves the best Arnold pomer you ordered one up this is what they brought you only it
[04:27:39] made you smarter and more physically capable is Arnold pomer at alcoholic beverage no the Oji no
[04:27:47] no it's half it's half iced tea half lemonade the jockel pomer is half iced tea half lemonade and half
[04:27:58] discipline there you go also in addition we got work in bulk additional protein in the form
[04:28:07] dessert engineered toward the kids and also jockel white tea certified organic light
[04:28:17] which is cool but more important certified 8000 pound deadlift 100% guaranteed which is nice
[04:28:22] you can get any and all of these nutritional products at the vitamin shop in your local
[04:28:30] vicinity that's in addition to origin mean dot com that's an addition to one run to the store
[04:28:35] real quick and grab it boom vitamin shop all day yeah yes that's affirmative also
[04:28:41] talk about the store we have a store and it's called jocco store jocco store dot com to be more specific
[04:28:51] anyway this is where you can get your shirt t-shirts this lint equals read on good get after it
[04:28:58] stand by to get a lot of shirts on there a lot of shirts that maybe when you put it on
[04:29:04] maybe there's a little a little little mindset shift in your brain and you look at it
[04:29:11] you go knock it out let this t-shirt down rather that's confirmed so jp text me with the
[04:29:16] with the picture and I text message and he he goes he goes hey I got to admit this is like
[04:29:25] furl he's like if I like slacker whatever like I don't I can't like mentally allow myself to
[04:29:31] wear the shirt he's like I can't cuz it's like I'm betraying the shirt for sure same so if you're on
[04:29:37] the path boom you you wear the shirt that's how but if you slip off the bat you're not worthy you
[04:29:41] know worthy worthy so your whole wardrobe is just proper shirts you know choice you're just gotta stand
[04:29:50] the path yeah hundred percent so yeah the hoodie's on there in hats on there too so dang like
[04:29:54] no matter where you go if you're on the path boom you're worthy so am I staying worthy represent
[04:29:59] if you want jockelstore dot com don't forget to subscribe to the podcast and someone was
[04:30:07] someone was talking about this podcast and explaining it to someone else and they were trying to explain
[04:30:14] the level of success of this podcast because I was just standing there someone was trying to explain
[04:30:21] to someone that I was cool right because one of those awkward to do it I mean what was the
[04:30:26] circumstances just the circumstances don't really want to go into but it was just it was just a situation
[04:30:30] where someone was trying to explain to someone else that I was cool I'm not doing it I'm just kind of
[04:30:34] standing there sure wait and then the statement was this podcast has 17 thousand reviews
[04:30:42] or some number maybe that's the number but whatever I didn't even know that this was a thing to like
[04:30:47] be excited about oh like counting their reviews yeah okay yeah but anyways it seems like we're in
[04:30:53] some kind of competition with everyone else okay all right and we like to read so if you're
[04:30:59] feeling like you want to provide support in victory for this too jump on there and leave a
[04:31:07] review it's especially good now I read the reviews which a lot of reviews to read 17 thousand
[04:31:11] reviews they're not super long it's not like a book but they do make you smile sometimes because
[04:31:17] people put they put layers until they reviews themselves they can make a brother laugh
[04:31:25] in fact if you want to you can just kind of go and peruse some of the other reviews and get
[04:31:30] it get a smile right see if you catch the layers see if you catch the connections
[04:31:35] little game we could have a board game what find the layers all right make the connections
[04:31:41] you know cool these are not this is not the only podcast that we have true we also have
[04:31:48] the grounded podcast which is about life kind of through the lens of the GJ2 we have the
[04:31:57] Warrior Kid podcast which we have a new one up which is outstanding we have also speaking of Warrior
[04:32:05] Kids we have a Warrior Kid soap from Irish Oaks Ranch dot com young maiden making soap and
[04:32:11] right now he's making something called killer scopes killer soap and there's one thing one mission
[04:32:17] for that soap and that is to help you stay clean great action myself and he's three by the way
[04:32:27] he likes a killer soap it's black to say it's not abrasive it but it has the little like
[04:32:32] slight scrubbing quality in there's a slight scrubbing that's something yes would it be
[04:32:37] would it be considered exfoliating no I don't know the criteria I don't think so but it does I know
[04:32:43] your talking it has a little bit yeah a little not much not a little bit make you feel cleaner
[04:32:50] 100% there you go yeah plus it's black by the way did I mention that yeah it looks kind of dope
[04:32:56] the fact that you use something that is black that you'd think oh this is gonna make everything dirty
[04:33:02] but it actually makes you clean is is like you're working with a handheld miracle
[04:33:07] it's a modern medical medical medical it's that activated charcoal yeah I seen a
[04:33:14] I don't know what it was like an Instagram video or something like this where activated
[04:33:18] charcoal they're using it like in something to brush their teeth so I was like hey I don't know
[04:33:23] what all that but apparently you know yeah we used to use it to prevent us from being killed by
[04:33:29] chemical biological and radiological weapons activated charcoal so why not wash your body with it
[04:33:35] there you go seems like good idea to me so there you go seems to work also we do have a YouTube channel
[04:33:42] with a video version of this podcast we want to see what Johnny Kim looks like
[04:33:47] see how young he looks you know it's watch YouTube video of it I think the YouTube is starting to
[04:33:54] become kind of like a more popular way of watching the podcast or well should I say uh
[04:34:00] what do you call listening to it or whatever well if you're on YouTube then you are in back watching it
[04:34:04] yeah I guess maybe you could be like have it on the in the background yeah like in the big
[04:34:08] screen or you know help you you know smart TVs nowadays that's the that's the jam nowadays
[04:34:13] you can have it on that whatever the last we do have YouTube channel official verified all that
[04:34:18] stuff so that's how you can tell it's a real one because there's you know people that'll
[04:34:21] cut they'll chop up little chunks and they'll put it on their YouTube channels everyone's in a while
[04:34:25] but tell you know you got the correct one the jockel podcast YouTube channel because there's excerpts
[04:34:30] on there as well enhanced excerpts with fire and smoke and explosions everyone's in a while yeah
[04:34:35] because what is what good is a good is a you know the spoken word if nothing's blowing up
[04:34:43] they know that's true it's all I feel sometimes true I didn't know if you were going to make it
[04:34:47] through today I fought for a moment you're going to make it through today without bringing in some random
[04:34:51] sci-fi movie episode the one time you spoke up you went straight to just Armageddon movie
[04:34:58] bro I was about to bust out interstellar Armageddon a deep impact like this a bunch of
[04:35:03] I was super nervous coming in this podcast because of that I'm like this could be hard I don't know
[04:35:09] if he's gonna be able to contain himself this could just turn into a sci-fi movie discussion and he
[04:35:13] mentioned Mars where that's the next mission so bro Mars what are we doing up there we all
[04:35:19] applaud you for containing your emotions and not turning this into a sci-fi movie discussion
[04:35:27] but I think I think there's a lot of questions that you know we all want to answer the last
[04:35:32] maybe next time we also have psychological warfare which is a little psychological that will help you get
[04:35:45] over a moment of weakness you can get that from any MP3 platform we have flip side canvas which is
[04:35:50] run by Dakota Meyer so you can have a visual representation of the path flip side canvas dot com
[04:35:55] we got some books bunch of books actually it's kind of ridiculous a Johnny Kim just walked out of here
[04:36:01] with every book and he's super fired up so what books did you walk out of here with leadership strategy
[04:36:07] in tactics field manual way the warrior kid one two and three Mikey in the dragons discipline
[04:36:12] goes freedom field manual and then extreme ownership and that I got to me leadership there's a
[04:36:18] bunch of books check them out we have Eshelon front which is my leadership consultancy is what we do
[04:36:27] solve problems through leadership if you need help with your team in any category go to
[04:36:33] Eshelon front dot com for details we have EF online which is leadership training virtual
[04:36:40] through the interwebs interactive go to EF online dot com to check that out we have the
[04:36:47] master 2020 this is our leadership seminar gathering event the first one isn't Orlando may 7th and 8th that one
[04:36:58] standby we got a little scenario unfolding in the nation and so we're seeing where that one ends up right now
[04:37:04] we are not planning well we we are on we are observing and assessing whether that was going to
[04:37:10] go down but if that one doesn't go down Phoenix Arizona September 16th and 17th Dallas Texas December 3rd and 4th
[04:37:17] check out extreme ownership dot com for details every single event that we have done has sold out
[04:37:22] so if you want to come register early and especially if this gets compressed into less
[04:37:26] monsters in the same year it's going to be close and also we have EF overwatch and EF legion
[04:37:33] taking leaders from the front lines from executive positions in the military and putting them
[04:37:40] into the civilian sector go to eF overwatch dot com or eF legion dot com if you find yourself
[04:37:50] with a deep desire to hear more from us because you haven't heard enough for some reason 4 1.5 hours
[04:37:55] wasn't enough of Johnny Kim of echo Charles of me well you can communicate with us virtually
[04:38:04] through the in-webs Johnny once again Johnny Kim USA and echo and I are also there we are on Twitter
[04:38:13] and we're on Instagram and we are on the Phelish bush that goes out echo Charles and I have
[04:38:20] that juggle willing again thanks once again to Johnny Kim for coming on thanks for NASA
[04:38:25] for letting him come out and do this and thanks to him for being such a humble guy and setting such a great
[04:38:31] example such a great example for everyone listen to what he's overcome what he's done what he's
[04:38:39] doing and what he has done not only in his personal life but what he has done in the service
[04:38:46] of his country and in the service of his friends and his brothers and the same goes to the rest of
[04:38:54] our service men and women out there on sea air land and in space preserving freedom
[04:39:05] and protecting our way of life in this world and beyond and to police and law enforcement
[04:39:15] and fire fighters and paramedics and EMTs and dispatchers and correction officers and border patrol
[04:39:19] and secret service thanks to what you all do every day as well and the sacrifices you make
[04:39:26] to protect us here at home and everyone else out there there are so many things that you can do
[04:39:38] so many things that you can do and as Johnny Kim proves you can be humble and you can be helpful
[04:39:45] as you do those things and in fact the more humble you are the more help for you are
[04:39:54] the better you will do and that being said humility is no guarantee for success
[04:40:02] because while yes you have to be humble yes still have to set some serious goals
[04:40:08] then you have to work harder than you think is possible and no matter where you came from
[04:40:18] and no matter what's ahead of you and no matter what happens keep getting after it
[04:40:25] and until next time this echo and jockel out