Jocko Podcast 204 w/ Dick Thompson: Don't Sign Up For SOG.

2019-11-21T15:53:52Z

Join the conversation on Twitter/Instagram: @jockowillink @hps_ceo @echocharles 0:00:00 – Opening 0:05:44 – Dick Thompson, SOG Warrior 2:38:26 – Final thoughts and take-aways. 2:46:45 – How to stay on THE PATH. JOCKO STORE Apparel: https://www.jockostore.com/collections/men All Supplements: https://originmaine.com/nutrition/jocko-fuel/ Origin Jeans and Clothes: https://originmaine.com/durable-goods/ Origin Gis: https://originmaine.com/bjj-mma-fit/ Onnit Stuff: http://www.onnit.com/jocko The Stress Effect (Book): https://amzn.to/2pCKocA 3:11:12 – Closing Gratitude

AI summary of episode

when you when you are looking through the index here's some here's some things communication with bosses forms of complaints complex problems compromise condis-concention confidence construction sites contingency planning counseling count nins it's got some it's got some very interesting topics all about leadership check that one out then of course there are the warrior kid books one two and three to get kids on the path we got Mikey in the dragons for the little or kid teach that kid to overcome fear we have the discipline equals freedom of field man the first field manual about how to be on the path if you want to know about workouts there's a bunch of workouts in there for you if you want to know about martial arts there's a bunch about martial arts in there if you want to know about food it's in there sleep it's in there all that stuff's in there and then there is the thoughts from me and and then there's extreme ownership and the dichotomy of leadership these are the two leadership books that I wrote with my brother-lave babbin and if you need help with your leadership you can check those out there's also echelon front this is our leadership consultancy and what we do is solve problems through leadership go to echelon front dot com for that if you want to get some of that training online check out eF online you don't need someone from echelon front to show up at your business to give you the instruction you can get it from eF online online training interactive online training then we have the master the next master is in Sydney Australia which is happening now this is probably already done so look at extreme ownership dot com for details of the forthcoming masters in 2020 okay a conversation pointer on about a certain thing and you kind of want to chime in more like that's how I feel you know like like when I'll listen to it's like a conversation going on kind of with you it's what I feel like you know just those my one of my prelimic experiences with it nonetheless called grounded podcast same-duo on uh you know iTunes Google Play all that stuff also the worry kid podcast hmm don't worry about that one And these days, well, you know, kids are relying on the GPS and they forget about some of those land nav skills and it always cracked me up because they're now they're to a point where they really rely on the GPS, they don't know their pace count and, you know, I'd be walking on the training operation, you know, it's okay, you know, just not even thinking about looking at a GPS because I did a map study and know where we're at. I guess I'm making it for you you know I'm just gonna do it you just be quiet so it took like 40 minutes you like made it he brings out you know you know once you've eaten a lot you still think you can eat more but then after like 15 minutes you're like and I think that's a common thing you know like I'm sure Pete could tell you too like if you was at the post office or wherever any sees like somebody with the you know some or jean boots on or something like this he just kind of look at him look at the boot to me like yeah with legitimate products by the way because one thing again I said this for like you know how your friend where your neighbor whoever they give you the soap wrapped in the little decorative plastics ribbons you know that soap not really but continue well they'll do it from time to time and they're like but this one shaped like a claim or mine or something you should be usually it's shaped like a turtle shell or like a you know rain drop I don't know fabrius tank typically no nonetheless jacco jacco soap the one the eight inmates is like good you it's soap hanger it's not a decorative piece you got it functional as you say it will help you stay clean also youtube channel if you're interested in the video version of this podcast you know if you have a smart TV like hanging in your wall in your gym you're wearing your house whatever office whatever you want to play this podcast boom put on the youtube version i say that because i hear that people are doing that mmm i've seen videos of people doing that me too this is pretty cool plus you can see echoes videos that he well it's up for debate whether he goes overboard or not i think some that's clearly that it has gone over what i think they're like like what do you call borderline push the envelope You know, so he's bleeding like a stuck pig and, you know, the bad guys are coming and, you know, he takes out 20 of them. no well you know I think it's a cool record right there you just got trapped it's a cool reminder for sure yes wherever you listen to podcasts yes subscribe if you would if you want fully also speaking of subscribing it's another podcast that people seem to like call ground it keep you grounded kind of you jiu-jiu uh a theme this is not it's not really a jiu-jiu-jiu thing kind of is it's just more what exploring certain elements of life in a little bit more loose way oh yeah to me that tells me 100% like that you know when I see somebody that's wearing you know that's representing I just give them like a little head a little something And when you think about it, Jitu's like the most efficient, a lot of not efficient is word, but it's like it's exercise competition, friendly and how should I say, what you call, aggressive, aggressive, but like what's like beneficial competition, you know, how there's like unhealthy health. And he said, well, I talked to, you know, Sergeant Jones and, you know, it was impressive because he said, and, you know, I had total faith in him. Well, it's really infantry, but it's put trolling operations, raid ambushes, you know, those kinds of things that we're doing in S.L.F. You know, when I first got to S.L.F.G when I went in with my group, everybody did, I arrived with went to what they called the 1-0 School, the S.L.F.G team leader school. So, you know, it was go get, so we went out and you know, sure enough, it didn't take us long to find, you know, of a container or so of people. If I only have to go out six times and six months, I mean, I've got to get to deal, you know, the grunts are going out every day and fighting, you know, or doing something or being exposed. And it started over by the chemistry, you know, so then we get out, we run the firing range, you know, I'm, I wasn't expert marksman before ever, you know, went in. also jocquwaiti yes not forget about the jocquwaiti you know once you kind of deadlift all that way to whatever we tend to forget where you know how you got there so let's just not forget that and plus winter is here kind of sure So I found this Taekwondo place, you know, right off campus there, and I went in and I said, you know, I need to help him up a little bit. I mean, we're out here with people, you know, you know, bullets going everywhere. Yeah, so I went to FOP-1 at Fubi with a group of other people and when we got there, they grabbed everybody, but me and said, you know, you guys are going to one zero school. Whether you're American or indeed you've got to know where it is, you've got to know how to get there. So I jumped around behind the tree and, you know, we set off to clay moors, had a full of ledge, you know, a firefight going on, eventually had to work gunshilts and things and get extracted. If they, if they don't have masks, and now all of a sudden they're getting all of the the gas coming in, you know, it's hard for them to see the instrument panel to be able to fly, you know, what they came back in and they got us out. You know, a lot of times we would carry gas, we'd carry regular, you know, like a CS grenade. I mean, you got to know where you are on the ground because you know the topology. And, you know, ironically enough, that was very similar to what it was like, you know, when I came home and went to the Ranger Department and became a Ranger instructor. so all I've kind of disparaged that flavor a bit of you know I've been like well you know everything else is so great And then, you know, when we got in contact, you know, when I call for those targets, they put it right on them. No, you know, hall it because like if you drink even like a coffee scenario where you, you get to a point where you drink too many coffees and you're like, I don't feel good anymore. So when we get about the two mile point, you know, I, I told him, I said, sir, I'm going to, I'm going to go ahead and turn around here and go back and take care of some things. I mean, if the bad guys are coming, he's gonna take them out and you know, demonstrate it out, you know, on several occasions with me, demonstrated it later on. But you know, because, you know, compared to the regular mission, I mean, this isn't a little brainer. And those younger guys, you know, they just, they just don't have this, not all of them of course, you know, we still get some guys that are great at it, but it's just a different time. You've got to look at that and say, even if you have the attitude of it will happen to someone else, when you've got green trace you're coming through your aircraft, that might change even my mind and start thinking, okay, probably not going to probably not going to make it through this. So you take over this, you take over this new team, you got barge well, which I'm sure you heard me talking about it with Tilt, but you know, he was when I was a young officer, I just got picked up for a commission and I went to Germany and he was the guy in charge over there. And you know, it went in things I talked about and you know, the stress book is that when your stress level gets really high, you lose your fine motor coordination. But I paid for it, you know, later on, you know, I actually got extracted and it realized I had pulled muscles in my shoulders. He's got an AK-47 slung over his shoulder and he's telling, you know, his aids and body guards, hey, if we get in trouble, you know, worry about me. And if he does okay, then, you know, he will take over the team and he'll start getting, you know, Sog missions.

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Episode transcript

[00:00:00] This is Jocco podcast number 204 with echo Charles and me, Jocco Willink. Good evening echo. Good evening.
[00:00:08] By virtue of the authority vested in me as president of the United States and as commander in chief of the armed forces of the United States,
[00:00:19] I have today awarded the Presidential Unit citation for extraordinary heroism to the studies and observations group military assistance command.
[00:00:31] The studies in observation group is cited for extraordinary heroism, great combat achievement and unwavering fidelity while executing unheralded top secret missions deep behind enemy lines across southeast Asia.
[00:00:46] Incorporating volunteers from all branches of the armed forces and especially US Army Special Forces,
[00:00:54] the dogs ground air and sea units fought efficiently denied actions which contributed immeasurably to the American war effort in Vietnam.
[00:01:06] Mac Vesog reconnaissance teams composed of special forces soldiers and indigenous personnel penetrated the enemy's most dangerous redouts in the jungle lay ocean wilderness and the sanctuaries of eastern Cambodia.
[00:01:21] pursued by human trackers and even blood hounds. These small teams outmaneuvered out fought and outran their numerically superior foe to uncover key enemy facilities rescue down pilots, plant wire traps, mines and electronic sensors capture valuable enemy prisoners ambush convoys,
[00:01:43] discover and assess targets for B-52 strikes and flick casualties all out of proportion to their own losses.
[00:01:52] When enemy countermeasures became dangerously effective, saw operators innovated their own counters from high altitude parachuting and unusual explosive devices to tactics as old as the French and Indian war.
[00:02:08] Fighting alongside their modern yard, Chinese known Cambodian and Vietnamese allies special forces led hatchet forces companies and platoons staged daring raids against key enemy facilities in Lousen Cambodia over ran major munitions and supplies stockpiles and blocked enemy highways to choke off the flow of supplies to South Vietnam.
[00:02:34] Sogs cross border operations proved an effective economy force compelling the Vietnamese the North Vietnamese army to divert 50,000 soldiers to rear airy security details from far from the battlefields of South Vietnam.
[00:02:52] Supporting these hazardous missions were Sogs' own US and South Vietnamese Air Force transport and helicopter squadrons along with US Air Force forward air controllers and helicopter units of the US Army and US Marine Corps.
[00:03:07] These courageous aviators often flew through heavy fire to extract Sog operators from seemingly hopeless situations saving lives by selflessly risking their own.
[00:03:19] Sogs' Vietnamese naval surface forces instructed and advised by US Navy SEALs boldly rated North Vietnam's coast and won surface victories against the North Vietnamese Navy while indigenous agent teams penetrated the very heartland of North Vietnam.
[00:03:41] Despite casualties that sometimes became universal Sogs operators never wavered but fought throughout the war with the same flare, fidelity and interpetity that distinguished Sog from its beginning.
[00:04:00] Sogs' factories and observation groups combat prowess, martial skills and un-ignalaged sacrifices saved many American lives and provide a pair of gun for America's future special operations forces.
[00:04:19] Signed President of the United States George Walker Bush.
[00:04:26] And that is the Presidential Unit Citation presented for those that served in Mac Vee Saga, the Studies and Observation Group in Vietnam.
[00:04:39] And for those of you that don't know what the Presidential Unit Citation is, it's an award that is giving to whole units.
[00:04:48] Who, and this is the way they describe it, I quote, display gallantry determination and to spread a core that sets them apart from other units.
[00:05:02] And you have heard about Sog on this podcast before. First from John Striker Meyer, otherwise known as Tilt. And he was on podcast 1801 and 182 and then from his comrade in arms, the late Great Hero Doug the Frenchman, L'Aterno.
[00:05:27] And it is an honor for us tonight to have another Sog warrior here. Henry Dick Thompson, codenamed Dynamite and later known as the Terminator, who served as a Sog 11 and as a 10 and then continued on with 21 years in the Army, eventually retiring and having a whole another career.
[00:05:56] As a leadership consultant, author and speaker, Mr. Thompson. And I know I should probably say Dr. Thompson, because I know you got your PhD as well.
[00:06:09] If that in case everything else was enough, sir, welcome to the program. Thank you for coming on.
[00:06:15] Thank you for having me. Looking forward to it. So, let's start at the beginning. Where'd you grow up?
[00:06:21] And South Carolina, a little town called Wallhalla, not far from Climpson University. And what year were you born?
[00:06:31] 1947. 1947. So you kind of grew up in the 50s?
[00:06:37] Yeah, pretty much. And then were you in a military family or anything like that?
[00:06:43] My father, yeah, my father was a World War II in Korea. My mother had five brothers, all World War II when it was killed.
[00:06:55] So I was around it, you know, like from the start, because a family was together a lot.
[00:07:02] So I had a lot of discussion, you know, about the war and things that were going on.
[00:07:06] I was always asking questions and how do you do this and how do you do that and how do you organize? So I was interested, you know, right from the beginning.
[00:07:15] And your dad was in World War II and Korea. What was his job in the military? What branch was he?
[00:07:20] He was infantry. So, and he did work with the Rangers for a while and one more to.
[00:07:27] And so would you hear him? Would he debrief you on the types of operations that he did in World War II in Korea? Some of it. He didn't talk a whole lot about exactly what he did, but he would talk in general about what was going on, about the kinds of operations and things.
[00:07:45] So what theater did you fight in?
[00:07:48] He was in Germany, mostly the time in that area.
[00:07:54] And how long was he in the army for?
[00:07:58] Army was about four years and then he got out and then when Korea came along, then they called it back in.
[00:08:07] And that's really where I started to hear about it because I was old enough by then to hear people talk about Korea and about the war.
[00:08:17] And he would write letters on and talk about how deep the mud was or how cold it was and things like that.
[00:08:26] So I was hearing about the war, you know, first hand and then.
[00:08:32] And were you thinking, I'm going in the military?
[00:08:36] I was probably four or five when I started thinking about that.
[00:08:41] And interestingly enough, I did found find my old log book because I also got interested in the and the Rangers.
[00:08:51] I wanted to be a Ranger when I went in.
[00:08:53] So I found a log book that I created when, you know, I was about nine or so when I created it.
[00:09:02] I had all the members of our Ranger Company listed, which was primarily my cousins.
[00:09:08] But, you know, we had to murder people, we had recruited in and we had the journal of things that we did.
[00:09:16] People who got promoted.
[00:09:18] People who I court martial.
[00:09:22] So are were you guys doing night raids and stuff?
[00:09:25] We spent a lot of time in the woods.
[00:09:27] I grew up in the woods.
[00:09:29] You know, when I was five years old when I get a chance I'd go off in the woods by myself.
[00:09:35] I go play track animals.
[00:09:38] I'd listen to the sounds.
[00:09:39] I'd learn how to move by the time I was six.
[00:09:42] I had an army putt in it and I would take up on top of the hill and the woods put it up.
[00:09:47] Sleep up there by myself.
[00:09:49] That night takes some eggs and stuff with me.
[00:09:51] I'd build a little fire, you know, cook.
[00:09:54] As I got a little older and I had my BB gun.
[00:09:58] I'd take out some birds, roast them over the fire.
[00:10:01] So doing things like that that I thought Rangers did.
[00:10:05] You were the six year old Ranger company commander getting after it.
[00:10:11] You know, a lot of books had general tops.
[00:10:13] Yeah.
[00:10:14] That works.
[00:10:16] And then what about high school did you play sports football and track?
[00:10:21] How I was your athletic capability.
[00:10:24] I was better than average on the team.
[00:10:28] I wasn't you know, college material.
[00:10:32] But you know, because I was relatively small.
[00:10:35] But I could hit really hard.
[00:10:38] My senior year that you've been moving me from running back to defensive end,
[00:10:43] which I was on a line that weighed over 200 pounds and I was 140.
[00:10:48] You didn't want to come around my end.
[00:10:51] My other skill was, you know, it was very fast.
[00:10:55] And when the quarterback had dropped back and seen me in his face, because I could get there really quickly.
[00:11:01] And then, so when you graduated high school, did you, did you know you were going to college or what was your place?
[00:11:07] Yeah.
[00:11:08] I started college and after about a year and a half, you know, Vietnam was going hot and heavy.
[00:11:15] You saw I don't, the news every night.
[00:11:18] Well, you're a graduate high school?
[00:11:20] Yeah, I was 65.
[00:11:25] Okay. So yeah, I, from what I can tell, because I wasn't alive then, but from what I can tell,
[00:11:29] the, the battle the I drank value was in 1965 and that was kind of where the real,
[00:11:34] hey, we're, we're in combat all the time now.
[00:11:37] It seems to have, that seems to be the pivot point.
[00:11:39] That's noticeable when you look at it historically.
[00:11:42] Well, that was, that was when I think we discovered the North Vietnamese had a real army.
[00:11:49] And they were very good much better than anybody thought at the time.
[00:11:55] And over the next few years, that mean you, you could place them probably in the top four in the world in terms of armies.
[00:12:04] Plus, we were fighting in their backyard.
[00:12:07] They knew the terrain.
[00:12:08] They knew how to operate there.
[00:12:10] They didn't stop.
[00:12:12] They just keep coming.
[00:12:14] Their biggest disadvantage was they didn't have the technology that we did.
[00:12:18] They, they have air superiority and it's just a lot of things they didn't have that held them back or it would have been much worse than it was.
[00:12:26] So it's 1965 is, that's when you said you graduated high school.
[00:12:30] And when you graduated high school, you go to college.
[00:12:32] Where'd you go to college?
[00:12:34] University, South Carolina.
[00:12:36] And then you said it was like a year and a half that you, what, what'd you end up doing?
[00:12:40] Well, I, I made a decision that what I wanted to do is take a break from school.
[00:12:45] Because we had no one was going on. I felt an obligation to go do something, do my part.
[00:12:52] And actually was all my way to the Marine recruiter because that's who you saw on TV every night.
[00:13:03] But stopped by the Army recruiter who was next to or just to see what they had to offer.
[00:13:09] So I went with the Army and I knew that would give me a chance to do the Rangers.
[00:13:14] If I decided that's what I wanted to do.
[00:13:17] But by then I, I was also a chemist about 13 developed the passion for chemistry.
[00:13:25] So in addition to all the outdoor stuff, you know, I was, I set up my own laboratory in the barn.
[00:13:32] I spent all my money on chemicals and I know you like this, but back in the day.
[00:13:42] You could, you could go into a pharmacy and buy all kinds of things.
[00:13:47] I mean, you could buy, you know, nitric acid, I mean just unbelievable, chemical, you know, you could buy.
[00:13:55] Particularly if you got your mother designed for you and say, yeah, it's okay to let him have that stuff.
[00:14:00] And I would stock my, my lab with it and do all kinds of experiments.
[00:14:05] I, I was getting close maybe to a successful brain exchange between birds and frogs.
[00:14:16] I could get it in there. I just couldn't get them, you know, to start breathing again afterwards.
[00:14:21] So I have a lot of that sounds close.
[00:14:24] Yeah. So anyway, so were you studying chemistry in college?
[00:14:27] Yes.
[00:14:28] Yeah, I went to school on a chemistry scholarship. The intent was to be, you know, got a doctor and chemistry and be a researcher.
[00:14:37] But then I decided to take the break.
[00:14:40] Do three years in the army and then come back and finish the degree.
[00:14:44] So it's so is it 1967 now when in 1967?
[00:14:48] So it's 1967. How strong would the sentiments in America against the war in 1967?
[00:14:55] Very strong. So that was already there.
[00:14:57] Yeah.
[00:14:58] What about South Carolina?
[00:15:01] Not as much as some of the other parts of the country, you know, but it was still there.
[00:15:06] It wasn't something that everyone thought we should be doing.
[00:15:11] Mm-hmm.
[00:15:12] And what about your dad who had seen combat in World War II and in Korea?
[00:15:18] How do he feel about going in?
[00:15:20] He supported it.
[00:15:21] My mother didn't.
[00:15:23] You know, she wanted to finish his school.
[00:15:25] I was like, you know, I'm just taking three year break.
[00:15:28] I'll come back and finish the doctor and everything will be fine.
[00:15:33] She said, no, you want to. I'll be back.
[00:15:37] Unfortunately, when I got in, they started talking about, man, you got to go to the Airborne School.
[00:15:45] You need to be airborne.
[00:15:48] And they said, you need to go to the SC.
[00:15:51] Yeah, you need to be on officer.
[00:15:53] So what point? So you go to boot camp.
[00:15:56] And is it boot camp where they're like, look, and you go, hey, we need airborne soldiers.
[00:16:01] Yeah.
[00:16:02] And was that a pretty easy pathway to get to?
[00:16:04] Yes. I mean, they ask you, gay one when you go into induction center.
[00:16:09] You want balls here to be airborne.
[00:16:12] My response was, no.
[00:16:14] That's not what I'm here for.
[00:16:17] But then once I got into boot camp, I think that stuff up.
[00:16:24] Did you still, so when you were, when you went in, what was the predominant part of your brain that was functioning?
[00:16:31] Was it the, hey, I'm going to do three years serve my country and looked for a job that will be similar to being a chemist?
[00:16:37] Or was the primary part of your brain that was functioning was the, I wanted to be a ranger and go get after it.
[00:16:44] It was when I first entered first couple of days.
[00:16:49] It was, you know, three years I'm out, go back to school, be a chemist.
[00:16:54] I guess it was maybe the first morning we were in the barracks.
[00:16:59] And, you know, about 334 clock, the lights come on.
[00:17:04] Somebody starts yelling and screaming and hollowing to get out of the, out of bed, fall in, you know, getting formation in front of the blocks.
[00:17:13] And then I hear, you know, when double blocks, I hear them start crashing onto the floor.
[00:17:20] And I jump out and I look and here's this guy smaller than me.
[00:17:25] There's a big, you know, smokey day bare head on a ranger tab.
[00:17:30] That's going to wow.
[00:17:32] And everybody there jumped one night guy said to do something.
[00:17:37] And I said, okay, I need to start rethinking here.
[00:17:41] There's got to be something innate in men.
[00:17:46] To, to, that's just, that's just what happens.
[00:17:49] You see that and you go, yes, I'm in for that.
[00:17:52] Yeah, I mean, this guy was impressive.
[00:17:55] And, you know, that brought back all the ranger stuff.
[00:17:58] And it started over by the chemistry, you know, so then we get out,
[00:18:02] we run the firing range, you know, I'm, I wasn't expert marksman before ever, you know, went in.
[00:18:10] So, you know, I'd max out the marksman's ship.
[00:18:13] And I was in, you know, good physical condition.
[00:18:16] So, every, every thing they were doing, I could do.
[00:18:19] And I, I learned it really fast.
[00:18:22] One night, I was on, CQ, duty.
[00:18:26] I had to work in the Ordley room with the person who was there on night.
[00:18:31] And I saw this book, laying on the table.
[00:18:35] I was FM-20T-100, Trill and Sarah Monnys.
[00:18:40] And I picked it up and I started looking at it and I thought,
[00:18:44] this tells you everything about, you know, right face, left face,
[00:18:47] when to call the command, all the, I said it's all written out right here.
[00:18:50] I mean, if I'd had this book, like, a couple weeks.
[00:18:53] So, I read the book, night, you know, I'd probably pretty fast.
[00:18:57] The next day, I could see the mistakes, the drill sergeants are making.
[00:19:02] And I, I made the mistake one time. I'll point it out.
[00:19:05] So, you know, I get the work on my tricep, some packs a little bit.
[00:19:10] And I pushed, pushed for it, got in a little bit closer to China.
[00:19:15] But, I found it, this is what I'll written down.
[00:19:18] He gave me access to it, I'll learn it.
[00:19:20] And so, I was the, putting charge of my punten,
[00:19:25] as a punten guide, because, you know, physically mentally everything I was doing great.
[00:19:31] So I had a good time.
[00:19:34] And then you've all, was it,
[00:19:36] did you have a job designated when you went in?
[00:19:39] Were you going to be infantry when you went in?
[00:19:41] I was going to the chemical corps.
[00:19:43] So the chemistry brain was legitimately winning when you went in.
[00:19:47] That was for a few days.
[00:19:49] And then did you change your specialty to infantry?
[00:19:54] Yeah.
[00:19:54] You walked in and said, yeah, hey, I know I showed up to be a chemist,
[00:19:57] but I want to carry a machine gun.
[00:20:00] Maybe how hard was it to do that?
[00:20:03] Not hard at all.
[00:20:04] Because I was so fired up.
[00:20:06] I had a lot of the things we were doing.
[00:20:08] And I figured, I could do this for three years.
[00:20:10] I could still go back and do a chemist if I want to.
[00:20:13] But they let you change.
[00:20:14] They said, OK, cool.
[00:20:16] If you want to change the infantry,
[00:20:18] during that time, there was no problem.
[00:20:20] No problem.
[00:20:21] Anybody that would volunteer for that?
[00:20:23] I mean, you got it right away.
[00:20:25] And then next up, how did you volunteer for airborne school?
[00:20:27] Same thing?
[00:20:29] Yeah.
[00:20:30] I mean, I just had an opportunity to volunteer.
[00:20:34] Well, after boot camp, you'd go to my case,
[00:20:37] and went to advanced infantry training.
[00:20:39] Yeah, I saw.
[00:20:40] So in there, you're volunteering for different things.
[00:20:44] So I volunteered for OCS, I volunteered to go to Airborne School.
[00:20:49] So I went to OCS first.
[00:20:51] And they sent you to OCS even though you hadn't completed college.
[00:20:55] Yes.
[00:20:56] And they didn't care.
[00:20:58] And I did that time.
[00:20:59] They're like, hey, you're smart.
[00:21:01] Luteinets were getting kill so fast.
[00:21:03] I mean, they couldn't produce luteinets fast enough.
[00:21:07] Luteinets had a life expectancy about a day and a half of the amount.
[00:21:13] So that was easy to get in.
[00:21:16] And I did that.
[00:21:18] I did really well at OCS.
[00:21:20] So it was easy when I said, OK, I want to go to Airborne School.
[00:21:25] I want to go to Special Forces.
[00:21:28] So you made that decision as well.
[00:21:32] Now what about being going from officers to Special Forces?
[00:21:35] Was there any challenge in making that happen?
[00:21:37] Or was it still just open?
[00:21:38] Why open?
[00:21:39] I took me right in.
[00:21:40] Yeah, I had done well.
[00:21:43] I got accepted to that.
[00:21:45] So I had to, how you had to?
[00:21:47] At the coast point.
[00:21:49] 19, 20.
[00:21:53] So you're 19 years old.
[00:21:54] You have a year and a half of college.
[00:21:55] You're an officer in the army going to Special Forces Airborne.
[00:22:01] And this is all just tracking you to go to Vietnam.
[00:22:03] Yeah.
[00:22:04] And you're on that track.
[00:22:05] But I'm going to go ahead.
[00:22:07] Well, let's go ahead and say when you, so Airborne School is Airborne School.
[00:22:10] I went to Airborne School.
[00:22:11] I was lucky enough to have been in the Navy when we still went to Fort Benning, George, and
[00:22:15] Airborne School.
[00:22:17] But what about Special Forces School?
[00:22:18] As you were going through that, what was your impression of what was going on?
[00:22:22] What was the instruction like, how well was that preparing you from your perspective for
[00:22:27] what were you going to be doing in Vietnam?
[00:22:30] I think it did a, it didn't prepare me for a song necessarily.
[00:22:34] It gave me a lot of the basics.
[00:22:38] Special Forces is not just about going in and conducting a raid or something like that.
[00:22:45] It's really good about going in and working with the people.
[00:22:47] We did a lot of training on insurgency, how governments are overthrown, different things
[00:22:54] like that.
[00:22:55] So, particularly since I was an officer, I was on the Offsuit track.
[00:22:59] So, we were doing a lot of the bigger picture.
[00:23:05] Staff plus, officers get trained in all of the primary school sets of Special Forces,
[00:23:12] whereas if you're enlisted coming out of the qualification training, you go to be a weapon
[00:23:19] specialist, there to be a medic or whatever.
[00:23:22] You go into a special area.
[00:23:24] Officers have to be trained in all of them so that you understand what the people are talking
[00:23:28] about if you're going to lead them.
[00:23:30] So, I enjoyed that.
[00:23:33] Did well in it, volunteered for Ranger School.
[00:23:37] Then you went to Raiders School after?
[00:23:38] Went to Raiders School after.
[00:23:40] So, a lot of harassment.
[00:23:44] My Ranger buddy and I, we'd been together forever.
[00:23:49] So we go there and was that Bob?
[00:23:52] Yeah, that was Bob.
[00:23:53] And you have to go knock on the door to get in to report in to Ranger School and you can't
[00:24:00] knock on the door hard enough.
[00:24:02] So, Bob and I got back and ran into it and just knocked it off the hinge.
[00:24:06] Then then reported in, you know, the instructor that's there, he looked at us, he looked
[00:24:14] down to paper and he told the other guy that was with him.
[00:24:19] He said, we've got two snake eaters here.
[00:24:22] We're going to have to keep an eye on him to make sure they don't crap into street out
[00:24:26] there.
[00:24:27] So, you know, it went downhill from there because then it became Ranger School, kind of
[00:24:34] they became a tug of war between S.L.F. and the Rangers.
[00:24:39] So, every time you did something, if they dropped you for pushups, then you had to do one
[00:24:44] more for the big Ranger in the sky.
[00:24:46] So, Bob and I would do for the big Ranger in the sky.
[00:24:50] And two for the big S.F.
[00:24:51] Trooper, it looked so worth the big Ranger.
[00:24:53] And they'd put it back down again.
[00:24:55] So, you know, we tried to have as much fun in Ranger Schools.
[00:24:59] We could, you know, because it was tough.
[00:25:02] And being able to put a lower humor into it as you went along.
[00:25:07] Now, was Ranger School in terms of preparation for what you're going to be doing in
[00:25:11] S.L.F.
[00:25:12] Yeah, of course.
[00:25:13] Yes.
[00:25:14] Because now you're doing light infantry.
[00:25:16] Well, it's really infantry, but it's put trolling operations, raid ambushes, you know,
[00:25:26] those kinds of things that we're doing in S.L.F.
[00:25:29] You know, when I first got to S.L.F.G when I went in with my group, everybody did, I arrived
[00:25:35] with went to what they called the 1-0 School, the S.L.F.G team leader school.
[00:25:40] And I'm standing there and everybody else is walking away.
[00:25:42] And it's what about me.
[00:25:44] And you don't need to go to 1-0 School, you're a Ranger.
[00:25:47] You're going to a team.
[00:25:49] So tomorrow you'll be on a team.
[00:25:51] So, what point did you hear about S.L.F.G?
[00:25:56] You heard rumors?
[00:25:57] You know, when you at S.L.F. at Fort Bragg, everyone wants to want on somebody who
[00:26:01] would mention the term S.L.F.G.G, and you'd say, what's that?
[00:26:05] How did they get home in the stop-seek?
[00:26:07] Nobody can tell you what it is, but they really do some really cool missions.
[00:26:14] I mean, that's the elite, but nobody can tell you what they really do.
[00:26:19] So you, how much is all the schooling must have taken about two years for you to get through
[00:26:24] all the schooling?
[00:26:26] It is year and a half at this point probably.
[00:26:29] Year and a half.
[00:26:30] And when you get done with Ranger School, you finally check into a special force of
[00:26:36] group.
[00:26:37] No, I don't really, we were in, there was a little interim gun there before Ranger School.
[00:26:43] So we were already assigned to an 18 to a B team.
[00:26:46] I was already targeted toward Africa and actually in mission preparation to deploy to Africa
[00:26:54] for a mission that we were going on there.
[00:26:59] But I had volunteered to put in the paperwork to go to Vietnam.
[00:27:04] So right after Ranger School, that came through.
[00:27:07] And you went to all these schools with your friend Bob?
[00:27:09] Yeah.
[00:27:10] How did you know him?
[00:27:11] Where did you go?
[00:27:12] We met in Advanced Sanford, training right off the bat.
[00:27:17] So I mean, it was unreal.
[00:27:20] We just, every school, we had the same interest.
[00:27:22] So I mean, we went to every school together.
[00:27:26] The whole time.
[00:27:27] Where was he from?
[00:27:28] California.
[00:27:29] Okay.
[00:27:30] But you guys just hit it off.
[00:27:32] Yeah.
[00:27:33] You guys were both had the same money.
[00:27:34] Headshot and same mindset.
[00:27:35] We're going to do it.
[00:27:38] So then what, so you get your orders changed and was that hard to do?
[00:27:42] Again, I mean, if there's a choice in the military, if there's a choice between sending
[00:27:50] someone to Africa, sending to Vietnam, at that time Vietnam was going to win, it always went out.
[00:27:57] So as long as you wanted to take the hardest jobs and do the toughest things, it was pretty
[00:28:01] easy to get that path opened up for yourself.
[00:28:05] The Army will accommodate you.
[00:28:07] So all right, let's head over to Vietnam.
[00:28:12] When you show up there, I remember tilts saying they kind of showed up in Vietnam and
[00:28:17] they said, hey, who wants to volunteer now for soar?
[00:28:20] Is that what happened to you?
[00:28:21] Did you already volunteer and know where you were going?
[00:28:23] I knew it was going to special forces.
[00:28:25] I knew it, I'd get a special forces asana.
[00:28:29] And then when we got there, there was a guy who was already there working at a light
[00:28:35] force, but he was there in the train.
[00:28:40] So we linked up with him.
[00:28:42] We went to a bar that night and he kind of updated some things that were going on.
[00:28:48] One of the things he said was tomorrow toward the end of the day, one of the last things
[00:28:53] they're going to do, is they're going to ask you if you want to volunteer for sog.
[00:28:59] And he said, whatever you do, don't do it.
[00:29:02] Just tell them, no, they'll say thank you.
[00:29:05] And you move on to your special forces asana.
[00:29:10] So the next day toward the end of the day, where Bob and I are setting in office, waiting
[00:29:16] to go in to see Colonel Jones or whatever, and he said, what are you going to do?
[00:29:24] And I said, I'll make my decision, you have to make yours.
[00:29:30] This is not a joint decision on this thing.
[00:29:34] So I went in and he asked me about sog.
[00:29:38] Tell me just a little bit.
[00:29:40] And then said, if you want to do that, you have to sign a bunch of papers here.
[00:29:45] You volunteer for six months, basically go anywhere, do anything.
[00:29:50] And he said, you've got to understand, I'm saying anything.
[00:29:52] So, okay.
[00:29:55] And then you have to sign this.
[00:29:57] So the thing, you can't tell anybody for 20 years, what you do, stuff like that.
[00:30:02] So, while on tier, he sent me out the back door and brought Bob in the other door.
[00:30:07] I went back over to the little bar to meet up with her friend.
[00:30:11] And I came walking in and he said, you did it.
[00:30:15] I can see it on your face.
[00:30:18] Did you or a dead man walking?
[00:30:20] I told you not to do that.
[00:30:22] And when Bob showed up, it was the same way.
[00:30:25] You could say, I knew he was going to do it.
[00:30:28] Yeah.
[00:30:29] So now you too.
[00:30:30] So that was the attitude was, the casualty rate was so high in sog that when someone
[00:30:36] volunteered for it, it was like, do you or a dead man walking?
[00:30:40] I mean, the chances of survival, if you ended up on a team, if you went to, you know,
[00:30:46] staff position, that's a little different.
[00:30:47] But if you were on a team, you knew a minimum of you were going to get wounded.
[00:30:54] And did you, you knew that?
[00:30:56] Obviously, somebody, is this what the guy that was telling you don't go to soggy?
[00:30:59] He said, don't go to soggy because you're going to get wounded or you're going to get
[00:31:02] killed.
[00:31:03] That's getting ten most likely you're going to get killed.
[00:31:06] And he said, the highest casualty rate in Vietnam is there.
[00:31:10] Those guys don't survive.
[00:31:12] I'm not sure exactly what they do.
[00:31:14] But they don't survive.
[00:31:18] You got something, you got one note in the note you gave me.
[00:31:20] It says, it says, black birds.
[00:31:23] So we had to fly from no train to denang the next day because if you're going to soggy,
[00:31:33] you had to go to denang.
[00:31:37] So when we go to the airfield, they take us to a restricted area of the airfield.
[00:31:43] And the C-130s and 123s that came into that part of the airfield were black.
[00:31:49] He said, wow, that's a little different than everything else.
[00:31:56] And you get on the aircraft, there are no seats.
[00:32:01] There's seat belts on the floor.
[00:32:04] So the plane is good, except for the front end.
[00:32:06] And there's a line up there that says, do not go beyond its line, classified area.
[00:32:12] So something was happening in the front of those planes that we were not allowed to go
[00:32:16] to see.
[00:32:17] So we sat on the floor and we fly up there and we get all escort picks as out.
[00:32:23] And he says, there will be a bus here to pick you up in a few months to take you over
[00:32:29] to CCN.
[00:32:33] And so this school bus, like thing shows up, that's black.
[00:32:38] The windows shot out, they must have been 200 bullet holes in the bus.
[00:32:43] And we're looking at the bus thinking, oh, geez.
[00:32:47] What have we gotten into?
[00:32:50] The guy driving the bus, he said, we'll leave in a few minutes.
[00:32:54] We're picking up a team here today too.
[00:32:59] What happened to the bus?
[00:33:00] He said, well, there's a pass that we have to go through.
[00:33:05] And we get ambushed there sometimes.
[00:33:07] So the main thing for YouTube to remember is if the staff starts, you get on the floor
[00:33:15] of the bus and do whatever the team tells you.
[00:33:19] They'll take care of everything.
[00:33:20] You just do what they tell you if you want to live.
[00:33:22] I don't know what they think, man, this is not looking good.
[00:33:26] We might not even get there.
[00:33:28] But we did.
[00:33:29] And we got there.
[00:33:30] What was the, did you guys pick up a team?
[00:33:33] No, when we first got there, it was late afternoon.
[00:33:40] So they'll sign us to a bunk and told us that we would get brief the next morning on what
[00:33:47] we were going to do.
[00:33:48] And told us, yeah, we got something eating a mess on or lacks.
[00:33:52] They'd be a movie showing that night and we're thinking a movie.
[00:33:57] So they had constructed some kind of bleachers at this low-pand area, nailed up a few sheets
[00:34:04] of plywood and had a movie projector and they would get movies from somewhere and they would
[00:34:11] show a movie out there.
[00:34:14] So we went, let's go watch the movie.
[00:34:16] And behind that screen was Marble Mountain, which juts up out of the sand, 450 feet, just out
[00:34:25] of nowhere.
[00:34:26] They were judging up there.
[00:34:28] And there's two peaks.
[00:34:29] East peak up there has a combat outpost on it because it's the bad guys, you know, got
[00:34:36] up there.
[00:34:37] They could shoot right down into the combat.
[00:34:40] So we're watching the movie and all of a sudden red and green tracers are going here.
[00:34:43] I mean, this is Chris Cross and Bob and I are starting to hit the ground and everybody
[00:34:46] else says, watch the movie.
[00:34:48] And I asked one guy, what's going on?
[00:34:51] He's so worried about it.
[00:34:52] That happens every night.
[00:34:53] They've got to get the guys off to combat outpost and you know, we put on a little light
[00:34:59] show up there.
[00:35:00] It'll be fine.
[00:35:01] They won't shoot down here because they're getting shot out.
[00:35:03] They shoot back at those people.
[00:35:05] And well, that's interesting.
[00:35:09] So then what happens?
[00:35:13] Everyone else got sent to one zero school.
[00:35:15] Did Bob get sent to one zero school or is he the same as you?
[00:35:18] Well, before that, the next morning we got our briefing.
[00:35:23] We went into the, to the headquarters into the briefing room and, you know, the Colonel
[00:35:27] came in and said, okay, let me, let me tell you what socks about.
[00:35:31] Let me tell you what you're going to be doing.
[00:35:34] And he uncovered some maps on the wall and started talking about the kinds of missions
[00:35:40] that we would be going on and that, you know, we would be put on teams.
[00:35:44] And we'd be leading those missions and you kind of explained that, you know, at three major
[00:35:48] areas, you had the northern area, which was CCN there, but the forward operational base
[00:35:59] was up in Fubi.
[00:36:01] And so he explained where the, the different camps were.
[00:36:05] And then after that, you know, it told me I'd be going to Alpha V1 up north.
[00:36:10] Bob would be going down to Central down around the contain, you know, so we went
[00:36:15] on a different way to that point.
[00:36:17] Did, uh, when he started briefing on what the missions consisted of, did you, did you have
[00:36:23] any, was your guess anywhere close to that?
[00:36:26] Did you, did you have any idea and say, yeah, that's probably what I thought we would be
[00:36:30] doing was it close?
[00:36:31] I had heard rumors that maybe they operated outside of the Vietnam, you know, so they didn't
[00:36:39] surprise me that much when he started talking about the countries we were going to
[00:36:42] actually go into.
[00:36:45] The kinds of missions didn't surprise me too much.
[00:36:48] I mean, a few of them did, but for the most part, it was, wow, this is pretty cool.
[00:36:55] It's crazy, but it's pretty cool.
[00:36:58] Do he talk to you at all about casualty rates or anything?
[00:37:00] No.
[00:37:01] No.
[00:37:02] All right.
[00:37:03] So, so then what happens?
[00:37:06] You get a sign?
[00:37:07] Yeah, so I went to FOP-1 at Fubi with a group of other people and when we got there, they
[00:37:15] grabbed everybody, but me and said, you know, you guys are going to one zero school.
[00:37:20] So a week long course to teach him how to be a leader, small team, and the jungle.
[00:37:26] There were a few things that they probably got that I hadn't done already, but not much.
[00:37:34] So I was a sign or told I'd be a sign to the team the next morning.
[00:37:38] So many go report over to the supply room.
[00:37:43] They had a mission for me first, then I needed to do.
[00:37:46] So I want to get there to tell me that we had some casualties, and that their personal
[00:37:54] effects had to be mentored by an officer before they could be sent home.
[00:38:00] And he said, you know, there are duffle bags are in there.
[00:38:04] You know, if you just dump them out, go through them, look for anything that might be classified
[00:38:12] a map or anything like that.
[00:38:15] If there's any correspondence in there, read it, make sure it doesn't say anything about
[00:38:20] any of the missions.
[00:38:21] If there are pictures, you know, get all the pictures out.
[00:38:27] So pretty well, you know, sterilize their gear.
[00:38:32] So the first bag I picked up, I went over to name, I thought, wow, you know, I know
[00:38:37] him.
[00:38:38] So this was a guy that, you know, we had run around with some at Bragg, so I already knew
[00:38:44] him.
[00:38:45] And he came over, you know, about a month before me, and now I remember enjoying your
[00:38:51] stuff.
[00:38:52] So I kind of got my attention.
[00:38:54] So that the casters are great.
[00:38:57] You know, probably there's pretty high here.
[00:38:59] But then the next day I was, you know, assigned to a team as the one one, the assistant
[00:39:05] team leader.
[00:39:06] And, you know, we started mission prep to get ready to do out.
[00:39:10] Who is the team leader?
[00:39:11] Sergeant deck.
[00:39:13] So it's very cool that even though you were an officer, you were going to be a second
[00:39:17] in command.
[00:39:18] No one, no one was going to walk into a team regardless of your rank.
[00:39:23] And just, you know, say I'm here and I'm the team leader.
[00:39:28] You had to, regardless of your rank, you had to go out as an assistant or lower and learn
[00:39:37] how to lead a team.
[00:39:38] Learn what's going on out there.
[00:39:41] And eventually you get checked off by the team leader.
[00:39:44] You would, you know, like Sergeant deck had to say, okay, Thompson can lead a team now.
[00:39:49] And that put me put me on the list to take over the next team, you know, that was available.
[00:39:55] So what did the team consist of?
[00:39:57] My self, you know, Sergeant deck, myself and another American.
[00:40:03] And then, you know, we had probably nine indigenous members on the team.
[00:40:10] And who are the first indigenous, what kind of indigenous class the first group of Vietnamese
[00:40:14] and Vietnamese?
[00:40:15] Yeah, Vietnamese.
[00:40:16] And then did you, did you go through any training protocol to be ready for your first
[00:40:20] mission or what would you do?
[00:40:21] What would you do?
[00:40:22] I mean, we just, we started training right away once I was assigned, you know, deck
[00:40:27] grabbed me up and started talking to me.
[00:40:29] This is what you've got to do.
[00:40:30] And you just want to look and pour.
[00:40:32] Here's what we're going.
[00:40:33] What we're going to do.
[00:40:34] We took the team out.
[00:40:35] We started doing the media action drills and preparation for what we were going to do on
[00:40:40] the mission.
[00:40:43] How long did you guys have the train before you guys were going on?
[00:40:45] No, your first mission.
[00:40:46] It was probably eight to ten days before we actually went out.
[00:40:53] So I had a little time to get to know the team better, to learn all the drills and the
[00:41:00] way they did things.
[00:41:02] What was the level of English speaking for your indigenous groups?
[00:41:06] Very good for the interpreter.
[00:41:09] And the others, they understood some words.
[00:41:12] And the common words that you would use get down, stop, you know, things like that,
[00:41:16] that you used all the time, but you couldn't carry on the conversation.
[00:41:21] And what was your, how good was your level of focus during this time?
[00:41:26] I imagine you must have been just as focused as a human being.
[00:41:30] Again.
[00:41:31] That's when this is real.
[00:41:33] So totally focused.
[00:41:35] There's nothing else on my mind.
[00:41:39] In fact, we had a little theater there at Fubak, paddled top on it.
[00:41:47] So if it rained, we didn't get wet, but some old benches were saying, I want to be
[00:41:50] supply boy to movie was on.
[00:41:53] So I went to a movie after a couple of days.
[00:41:55] They had one.
[00:41:56] I went to the movie that even I'm setting there.
[00:41:59] And I hear this loud, pal, when the guy next to me falls off on the ground, I think.
[00:42:04] And you know, because we're setting outside, we just have a little top on.
[00:42:09] And you fall over on the ground, he's at the shoulder.
[00:42:12] All right.
[00:42:13] Well, it didn't matter where you are.
[00:42:16] That puts a doweler on, moving on.
[00:42:19] Yeah, I wasn't that much in the movie.
[00:42:24] All right.
[00:42:25] So now what's the first mission that you guys get aside?
[00:42:29] They were doing some testing, whom I got other things, in addition to just sending
[00:42:34] us on the mission.
[00:42:35] They were trying to figure out what was the best time to put a team on the ground?
[00:42:39] Should you put them in right at first light?
[00:42:42] So when you get off the aircraft, you can move out and head to wherever you're going
[00:42:48] to go.
[00:42:49] You're getting away from the hills.
[00:42:50] E quickly, you know, because the bad guys had figured out that you had been inserted,
[00:42:55] they'd come out and start looking for it.
[00:42:57] Orange was the best way to do it.
[00:42:59] Go in at last light.
[00:43:00] So it's dark.
[00:43:02] You get off the hills.
[00:43:03] You set up in your remainder of a night position and then head out at first light.
[00:43:10] So if the NVA or tractors are coming after you, then they were having to do it in a dark.
[00:43:18] So our team had been selected to be a last light insertion to see how that worked.
[00:43:25] So you know, and I had already been briefed on some things like we go in high.
[00:43:32] Go in 3,000 feet or so when we're flying to the LZ to avoid small orange fire coming up
[00:43:40] at us.
[00:43:41] And then when you get out there to the LZ, he's going to bank to aircraft on the side.
[00:43:51] And he's going to put it in auto rotate and hits just going to fall out of the sky and
[00:43:57] the spiral until he gets to where you want to make his short final coming into the LZ.
[00:44:02] And then you'll put the power back on and slow it down and we'll come in.
[00:44:07] I was not quite prepared for that.
[00:44:10] I mean, I understood the concept.
[00:44:12] What are you saying?
[00:44:14] But I didn't realize that when he put that thing in auto rotate, I wasn't going to be
[00:44:20] setting on anything.
[00:44:22] And then I was on the side that it was turned toward. So I'm just hanging out the area
[00:44:27] in the air holding onto the side of the aircraft, looking down 3,000 feet and saying,
[00:44:32] this is not good.
[00:44:34] Now, my stomach's up in my throat.
[00:44:36] And it's like a thrill ride at the fair or something.
[00:44:39] This thing is falling.
[00:44:41] And I'm just trying to hang on and stay in there.
[00:44:45] So we spiral into and we come around and we're coming in on a short final.
[00:44:49] Some of the ridge line and they had dropped what was called a Daisy Cutter, 2000 pound bomb
[00:44:59] to blow a hole into canopy big enough that we could set the helicopter down.
[00:45:03] And we're coming in, we're flying over a little pond on the ridge line.
[00:45:07] And I'm climbing out on the skid of the helicopter myself.
[00:45:13] And the other American, the team leaders on the other side.
[00:45:18] So we're climbing out on the skid and I'm thinking, man.
[00:45:24] I mean, we're going really slow.
[00:45:27] And I'm just a setting target.
[00:45:30] I mean, they could just knock me off of this thing any time.
[00:45:33] That's not good.
[00:45:36] So we come up and we had to literally go straight down into the bomb crater.
[00:45:43] So the pilot's trying not to clip trees as we're setting down.
[00:45:47] It's just getting dark.
[00:45:50] And we're going in and myself and the other guy are on the skid.
[00:45:57] And we're close enough and he slowed down enough.
[00:46:00] Okay, this is it.
[00:46:01] We're going to have to jump on down into the bomb crater.
[00:46:04] I bent my knees to jump.
[00:46:07] And just as I did, I saw the guy pop up on my right about 10 feet.
[00:46:12] You know, kind of off to the side with an AK 47.
[00:46:17] And just instantly instead of jumping, I pushed back, jumped back up on the edge of the
[00:46:22] helicopter.
[00:46:23] Just as I jumped up, he opens up with the AK.
[00:46:27] And the bullets come right across where my legs were.
[00:46:30] But now I moved and they hit, you know, they're other American on the other side of me.
[00:46:35] Hit him in the legs.
[00:46:37] So he starts the fall.
[00:46:39] So I'm grabbing the back of his harness where my left hand and I put a half of magazine
[00:46:46] and the guy, you know, that's right there.
[00:46:48] I hose them down.
[00:46:50] I managed to jerk the other guy up onto the floor of the helicopter and then I could
[00:46:55] turn and put him, you know, I could just see him also flashing right in front of me.
[00:47:00] So I put the other hand on the magazine there.
[00:47:03] So now I'm empty.
[00:47:07] And when we go in, when you'd go in, you would have gunships who would come in alongside
[00:47:13] your.
[00:47:14] So it would in case something happened.
[00:47:17] So we're in a full-fledged ambush now all the way around us.
[00:47:21] Two cover gunships open up where there are many guns, 4,000 rounds a minute coming in,
[00:47:26] looking like two hose pipes just spraying red water all around us.
[00:47:32] And a lot of people don't realize this, bullets don't just hit the ground and going
[00:47:35] to ground.
[00:47:36] They bounce all over the place and if they're trees there, they're shooting trees, they're
[00:47:40] going around.
[00:47:41] So I'm trying to pull him, I'm trying to pull him back up inside the helicopter.
[00:47:46] I got the door gunner on my side, full blast.
[00:47:51] The cobras coming in and they're also shooting 40 millimeter grenades at 250 a minute.
[00:47:57] So we got that going on.
[00:47:58] I got two team members behind me using me for cover.
[00:48:02] So I've got a muzzle on each side of my head right here.
[00:48:05] I'm getting powder burns from the muzzle flashes coming out of that.
[00:48:10] I got hot brass coming from them coming from the door gunner, going all over me.
[00:48:14] The floor is now covered with blood, blood squirting out of his legs.
[00:48:19] And my magazine is empty.
[00:48:22] So I'm trying to get to magazine out of my pouts that I've guided in.
[00:48:26] And you know, it went in things I talked about and you know, the stress book is that when
[00:48:32] your stress level gets really high, you lose your fine motor coordination.
[00:48:37] Things that you can do very easily when you're not stressed just don't work for you anymore.
[00:48:43] So I'm trying to have a trouble getting the magazine out of the pouts to start with.
[00:48:47] I finally get it out and then I can't get it in a weapon.
[00:48:51] And I'm setting there and I've just seeing hundreds and hundreds of bullets and tracers
[00:48:56] coming.
[00:48:57] Green tracers, Chris Cross and inside the aircraft.
[00:49:00] So green tracers, Chris crossing inside the aircraft.
[00:49:05] That's what she's like.
[00:49:06] Just explain to everybody that doesn't know what that means.
[00:49:09] That's insane.
[00:49:10] That means that enemy bullets, Vietnam, the Americans and used red tracers and the enemy
[00:49:18] used green tracers.
[00:49:19] And I don't think it's not really like that anymore.
[00:49:22] Everybody uses red tracers.
[00:49:23] And that was what was like for us.
[00:49:25] And in Iraq and in Iraq and in Iraq and in Iraq and in Iraq and in Iraq and in Iraq and in
[00:49:27] sense the same thing after Afghanistan, very rarely with they see green tracers.
[00:49:30] But for enemy tracers to be Chris crossing inside of your helicopter and this was a
[00:49:35] hewie, right?
[00:49:36] Yeah.
[00:49:37] This is not a small.
[00:49:38] This is not a big aircraft.
[00:49:41] This is a tiny aircraft.
[00:49:42] Your packed in there.
[00:49:44] So for rounds to be Chris crossing inside that thing, green tracers, that is completely insane.
[00:49:52] I was thinking that myself.
[00:49:53] Yeah.
[00:49:54] That's a little voicemail back in my head.
[00:49:56] Yeah, this is crazy.
[00:49:57] Not only that, but I am not happy.
[00:50:00] I mean, this is my first mission.
[00:50:02] And I'm going to die on my first, I mean, what kind of deal is this?
[00:50:07] I came over here to do something.
[00:50:08] So that little voice is going on back there and the other one's saying.
[00:50:12] This is like 15 seconds into your first mission.
[00:50:16] Yeah.
[00:50:17] I mean, it's right there.
[00:50:18] Ricochet is going all over the place from the covers and things.
[00:50:24] So the guys roll around, screaming, holding this leg and the blood squirting around.
[00:50:30] And you're also hearing the metallic clane, just clane with the bullets hidden in the helicopter.
[00:50:37] And you're thinking too, this thing's going to go down.
[00:50:40] We're going to end up in this bomb crater right there.
[00:50:45] So all of that's going on.
[00:50:46] I finally managed to get the other magazine in.
[00:50:50] So then I can start to shoot at the muscle flashes that I'm seeing.
[00:50:55] And the second time I go to reload, I was a little better with that one.
[00:51:01] Got it in there a little faster.
[00:51:03] The aircraft started to really vibrate now because she's trying to lift up out of that
[00:51:08] little hole in the canopy.
[00:51:10] So I'm thinking at least we're trying to start up.
[00:51:12] But this stuff is still coming.
[00:51:14] It's still hitting us.
[00:51:15] You just got to, you know, covers making more raids and now what's also happening.
[00:51:20] I can't really see it.
[00:51:22] But the A1 skysators that are out there on station willus, they give us some protection.
[00:51:28] They're starting to drop 500 pound bombs just a little waste from us because those little
[00:51:34] datch crew huts that I saw out there as we were spiraling in turned out to have tanks underneath
[00:51:41] them.
[00:51:42] They had just put that staff around and they come look like a little huts but really there
[00:51:49] was tanks.
[00:51:50] When the tanks started moving, the skysators went after them and so you got all the bombing
[00:51:56] and strapping of those guys going on.
[00:51:59] You got the gunships hitting all around us.
[00:52:03] We're trying to come out and eventually we managed to get up out of that hole.
[00:52:08] The fire just shifted.
[00:52:09] The skysators are going up but as we pulled away from it, then that fire stopped because
[00:52:16] now the cover really opened up on the ambush site and I looked across that sergeant
[00:52:22] deck setting over on the other side and he looked at me with a big grin on his face and
[00:52:28] he gave me a thumbs up and I'm thinking, oh, why is wrong with this guy?
[00:52:34] So I mean he was so excited.
[00:52:36] I mean he thought that was the coolest thing and I'm thinking, man, almost done.
[00:52:39] This was my first time.
[00:52:44] I experienced a level of fear that I didn't know existed.
[00:52:50] I mean I tried to imagine a lot about what's it like when people start shooting at you.
[00:52:55] Of course you're going to be a little anxious.
[00:52:58] So what is it going to be?
[00:53:00] I had no clue.
[00:53:02] I couldn't even imagine a level of fear like that but, you know, fortunately I was
[00:53:09] able to control that part of the fear.
[00:53:11] I could still shoot.
[00:53:14] It didn't stop me from returning fire and doing what I needed to do but man, it scared
[00:53:18] me.
[00:53:19] Having no two weapons right next to my head, I mean my high-frequency hearing was steadily
[00:53:26] going away permanently, getting burned with the muzzle flashes coming out of there.
[00:53:36] Feel my first two people for sure, the guy down below and the first guy shot that and
[00:53:42] the tree because also him come out and know I took those two out and I hit several others.
[00:53:48] Save the first Americans life because if he had fallen in the crater, he'd have been gone.
[00:53:53] A second later we'd have both jumped in that crater and we'd have both been gone.
[00:53:56] That's bad tactics on their part, right?
[00:53:58] They should have held for another two seconds.
[00:54:00] They should have held a strong ground and they would have been still been able to possibly
[00:54:04] damage that helicopter.
[00:54:05] Yeah, so you know, I earned my combat infantryman's badge.
[00:54:11] Yeah, you did.
[00:54:12] I had a whole series of first that occurred right there and survived that and a couple
[00:54:22] minutes later I'm thinking man, we got out of that and I looked down and here comes a stream
[00:54:27] of tracers coming up, out of a 51 caliber or something.
[00:54:32] They were trying to hit the helicopter, they were waistplummers but I think it's not over yet.
[00:54:40] We got to get out of here and get back and I told the door gunner, we got to go straight
[00:54:45] to the hospital, we got to drop this guy off and he's got to have medical attention right
[00:54:51] away.
[00:54:52] Yeah, so we dropped him off and went back to the launch site to drop the team off.
[00:55:00] I asked the sergeant deck, I said, I'm just curious.
[00:55:05] How many magazines did you fire when we were back there?
[00:55:11] And he said, I emptied five, I had to six put in, I was getting ready to start on that,
[00:55:18] through two fragmentation grenades on the smoke grenade.
[00:55:23] And then he said, Lieutenant, you need to practice so you get faster reloading when people
[00:55:29] are shooting after you or you're going to die.
[00:55:32] Okay, I'll practice.
[00:55:34] Yeah, because when you talk about the fine motor skills disappearing, but if you practice
[00:55:38] all the time, you'll be able to maintain them.
[00:55:42] To some degree.
[00:55:43] Yeah, there won't be as good but they'll be better.
[00:55:45] Yeah, because that's part of the problem with training.
[00:55:52] You train, you train to get a good site picture, side alignment and all that and you squeeze
[00:55:57] the trigger and hit your target.
[00:56:02] That's not shooting back at you.
[00:56:04] And then you get in a firefight like that and your stress level skyrockets and when it does,
[00:56:11] you can't see the site on the weapon.
[00:56:13] I mean, you train to use those sites.
[00:56:15] And now all of a sudden, your vision changes as the stress goes up, you can't focus on the
[00:56:20] sites.
[00:56:21] So you can't do it to where you train.
[00:56:26] You can't reload the way you train.
[00:56:28] You train to turn sideways and shoot.
[00:56:30] And all of a sudden, when all the stuff is coming at you, your body, your brain takes over
[00:56:34] and says face the enemy and then your body is going to turn you toward the enemy.
[00:56:39] So you've got to train to shoot at the enemy.
[00:56:41] You've got to train to shoot without aiming.
[00:56:45] So it's been, now I had been through pretty extensive course on something that we call
[00:56:50] quick kill where we train to shoot from the hill.
[00:56:53] And we started with BB guns and shot at little minister of silhouettes on a 2x4 shooting
[00:57:00] from the hill where the BB gun into and you could knock them all down and then we started
[00:57:04] the one disk up in three inch dives up in the air and you shoot with the BB gun until you
[00:57:09] could hit that moving disk.
[00:57:11] And then the disk would get smaller and smaller and then we would go onto a course where
[00:57:16] the target's popped up and it was lined fire in terms of, you know, you're using your
[00:57:21] weapon and shoot from the hill and you know, get so you could hit all the targets.
[00:57:26] So we practiced a lot and with the teams that I had, I just drilled it in or had, you've
[00:57:34] got to be able to shoot without aiming.
[00:57:36] You don't have time to bring up and try to look through a site and it's happening too
[00:57:40] fast.
[00:57:41] You would dead before you can get it up there.
[00:57:44] So there are a lot of techniques that I had brought in that I had learned before I got
[00:57:49] here and then, you know, kind of, developed across time and always trained at teams.
[00:57:55] Do you guys do it like this?
[00:57:57] That's quick.
[00:57:58] One of the NCOs that told me, one night at the Dubai, said, you can't hesitate.
[00:58:07] There's no hesitation.
[00:58:09] You got to understand Lieutenant where you're going.
[00:58:12] Everybody is the enemy.
[00:58:14] You don't have to worry about shooting, friendly, by my state, they're all enemy.
[00:58:20] The person it shoots first has the highest probability of surviving.
[00:58:24] Pull the trigger and never, ever shoot anybody less than three or four times.
[00:58:31] If you still move, you shoot them three or four more times.
[00:58:34] There's no one shot and move to the next guy.
[00:58:37] You make sure they go down.
[00:58:39] So that was kind of the strategy I adopted and practiced to be able to do that.
[00:58:47] I can go from the safety position on the selector switch to fully automatic, faster
[00:58:54] than most people can pull the trigger with the safety already off.
[00:58:59] I used to practice that.
[00:59:01] I used to practice it going down.
[00:59:02] I also would discover that with AK-47, this scene is they start to shoot at you, the barrel
[00:59:07] rises.
[00:59:08] If they don't hit you with that first or second round, if you can get down, you've got
[00:59:12] to change the survival and I used to practice shooting on the way down and put silhouettes
[00:59:18] out, hit them all before I hit the ground as I'm going down.
[00:59:21] I didn't hit that magazine.
[00:59:23] So anything that's kind of good on all of track here.
[00:59:26] That's actually right on track.
[00:59:29] You come back from this first mission.
[00:59:33] What do you think now?
[00:59:35] You've got to be thinking yourself, there's no possible way I'm living through this.
[00:59:39] Well, actually the way my mind works, I was critiquing.
[00:59:46] What should we have done?
[00:59:47] What should we have trained on beforehand?
[00:59:49] What did we do there?
[00:59:50] Were we prepared for an ambush like that?
[00:59:54] Was there anything else we could have done?
[00:59:56] So I was playing through our preparation, playing my mind through what we actually
[01:00:02] did.
[01:00:03] What could we do differently next time?
[01:00:07] In my mind, you've got to get better every time.
[01:00:10] Every time you do something, you need to be better than the last time that you did it.
[01:00:14] You need to understand it.
[01:00:16] You're going to always have to adapt.
[01:00:18] Whatever you plan, you're going to have to adapt.
[01:00:21] War is just not predictable.
[01:00:23] It's predictability is it's going to change.
[01:00:27] You've got to be able to do that and do it on the fly.
[01:00:30] I was telling you I had just had a guy on the podcast, hasn't come out yet, but I had a guy
[01:00:35] that was he went into Goalism Marine.
[01:00:37] He went into Guadalcanal, Taroa, Sipan, Tinyan.
[01:00:41] Got wounded in Taroa, got shot while he was still 500 meters from the beach trying to get
[01:00:47] across that hell that they were walking through.
[01:00:50] But we had that discussion around, you know, always thinking it's like nothing will happen
[01:00:55] to me.
[01:00:56] Use the example of like I always think if I'm going to commercial airplane and it crashes,
[01:01:01] I'm going to live.
[01:01:02] Like I'm going to figure out a way.
[01:01:04] I'll do a good free fall position and I'll look, scan, find a pool somewhere, whatever.
[01:01:11] Was there any of that?
[01:01:12] Because it seems to me like that kind of operation right there.
[01:01:16] You've got to look at that and say, even if you have the attitude of it will happen to
[01:01:19] someone else, when you've got green trace you're coming through your aircraft, that might
[01:01:24] change even my mind and start thinking, okay, probably not going to probably not going
[01:01:28] to make it through this.
[01:01:31] Yeah, you think that and I've had, I've used up more lives than a cat, just hearing
[01:01:39] that time period.
[01:01:40] I used up my lives that night.
[01:01:43] I never thought that I would.
[01:01:45] It was two minutes.
[01:01:46] I never thought I'd see my 21st or 22nd birthday.
[01:01:50] I thought there's no way.
[01:01:52] You just can't get there for you.
[01:01:53] Okay, so whatever you do.
[01:01:54] You got to a point where you said, okay, I'm probably not going to make it.
[01:01:57] Yeah, that's the way this.
[01:01:59] But my attitude is I'm going to take as many of you with me as I can.
[01:02:06] You might get me, but you're going to pay for it.
[01:02:09] I'll be really upset if you knock me off with the first round and I don't get a chance
[01:02:12] to get some of you, but you better do it quick because I'm going to take as many as I
[01:02:17] can with me because I'm coming.
[01:02:21] Okay, so you guys get back from that mission.
[01:02:25] You guys do a good debrief.
[01:02:26] You're going through all the points of what you thought you could do better.
[01:02:31] You're wondering who is the person that came up with the idea of doing these nine
[01:02:35] units shirts and maybe the last light inserts aren't the best.
[01:02:38] I don't know.
[01:02:39] Because that's another thing.
[01:02:40] You don't really know.
[01:02:41] It seems to me like if you drop a Daisy cutter and the enemy at least says themselves
[01:02:47] well, they drop the Daisy cutter.
[01:02:48] They must have done that for a reason.
[01:02:50] Let's go surround it.
[01:02:51] I mean, why would you drop a 2000 pound, one 2000 pound bomb out here on a ridge line?
[01:02:57] Yeah.
[01:02:58] And not doing anything else.
[01:02:59] That makes you coming.
[01:03:00] Yeah.
[01:03:01] Unless you're going to come in.
[01:03:02] Please drop 15 of them to make the enemy have to spread out a little bit.
[01:03:08] Not put their entire force surrounded this one crater.
[01:03:11] Yeah.
[01:03:12] There were a lot of things like that.
[01:03:15] I thought about once I got back.
[01:03:18] I was making a list.
[01:03:22] Unfortunately, I shared some of my lists with the commander of the camp.
[01:03:28] He was excited and telling me, I told you we could get you out.
[01:03:34] We put you out there.
[01:03:35] We're going to get you out.
[01:03:36] You saw it work.
[01:03:37] I said, I saw it.
[01:03:39] Let me share some thoughts with you.
[01:03:42] Fortunately, I probably had talked in Mr. Jack Daniels two months before I had that conversation.
[01:03:54] And I shared a little too much of my thoughts.
[01:03:58] He wasn't exactly happy.
[01:04:01] It's some of the things I had to say because it reflected on him too.
[01:04:05] I still think they were right.
[01:04:08] You put one, like you said, you put one day he's got her out there.
[01:04:12] Why don't we put up a flag for everybody to say, hey, come in here soon.
[01:04:16] All right, sir.
[01:04:18] Then what's the next mission look like?
[01:04:21] I see.
[01:04:23] Then I think the next one, the next one we actually had to spend the night.
[01:04:29] So we did a lot of planning.
[01:04:33] At this point, Sergeant Dex started to listen.
[01:04:37] I've got more credibility now.
[01:04:39] I've been shot at.
[01:04:41] And we did okay.
[01:04:44] So we put a lot more planning into it, a lot more rehearsal into it.
[01:04:50] And when in, got on the ground, an eventful.
[01:04:56] And when you would get on the ground, you would move a hundred meters or so into the
[01:05:02] jungle, you would stop, set up a security perimeter, and then you adapt.
[01:05:09] You listen.
[01:05:10] Do you hear any bad guys?
[01:05:11] What do you hear?
[01:05:12] You got to adapt to the sounds of the jungle.
[01:05:15] Because the last 45 minutes an hour, all you've heard is, is what, what, what, what, what
[01:05:19] are the helicopter?
[01:05:21] And you know, so you've had a temporary threshold shift in you here and you can't hear
[01:05:25] is good.
[01:05:26] You can't smell is good because you've been smelling the JPU four in the helicopter all the
[01:05:30] way out there.
[01:05:31] But you have that security halt and you adapt to the sounds.
[01:05:36] What's out there?
[01:05:38] What do you hear?
[01:05:39] What do you see?
[01:05:41] In my case, I was very fortunate that I had spider senses, so to speak.
[01:05:50] I didn't quite have spider hearing after that.
[01:05:55] First little episode.
[01:05:57] But I still, I still have a rest of it.
[01:05:59] I could smell you, and more than one case, I sniffed out an ambush.
[01:06:03] I could smell them.
[01:06:04] I could smell their body odor.
[01:06:06] I could smell what they had to eat.
[01:06:08] I knew they were up in front of us.
[01:06:10] I could just feel things like that.
[01:06:15] So, we had that.
[01:06:17] We sent in team okay.
[01:06:19] We had a code word that we just transmit that meant one of team okay moving north, moving
[01:06:25] whatever direction.
[01:06:26] Was this a daytime, early, first light insert?
[01:06:29] It was late afternoon.
[01:06:31] Yeah, it wasn't the last light thing again.
[01:06:35] So we had time to move for a ways and then eventually stop for the night.
[01:06:43] Typically what we would do is do like we call it a fish hook.
[01:06:49] You'd move along a little ways and then you would make a turn and you would come back
[01:06:53] down 50 meters or so.
[01:06:55] So if someone was tracking you, you'd hear them go by because they're following your
[01:07:00] trail.
[01:07:03] I would put a very quickly I learned to put out what we call toe poppers.
[01:07:09] It was a little small and a person L mine, plastic and I had to see for in it.
[01:07:18] It would take your leg off or most of your leg if you stepped on it.
[01:07:23] I had a lot of experience in the wood woods.
[01:07:26] I know how people are going to track you.
[01:07:28] I know where they're going to walk.
[01:07:29] I know where they're going to step.
[01:07:33] Particularly if there's a log for someone to have to go across, they'll always step around
[01:07:37] the other side of it.
[01:07:39] And that's where I'd put it.
[01:07:41] I'd put it right where they're going to step and I'd cover it back up.
[01:07:44] And sometimes I'd put my foot just a light foot print on top of it.
[01:07:49] And if they came, you'd hear that thing go off and you knew you got one.
[01:07:55] And he was probably going to die.
[01:07:57] He believed to death because they didn't have hospital or anything out there.
[01:08:01] So you had him.
[01:08:02] And if he was just leading a larger group, typically they would open fire.
[01:08:08] They didn't know where you were.
[01:08:09] They'd just start spraying the woods.
[01:08:11] But you know, your way back here, they're in front of you now.
[01:08:14] So that gives you a chance to decide if you're going to move out or not.
[01:08:19] So anyway, we set up.
[01:08:21] And the jungle, the jungle just swallows you as it starts to get dark.
[01:08:28] It just closes then all around you.
[01:08:32] And if you're under double canopy jungle, it gets dark fast.
[01:08:38] If you're under triple, it's pretty dark during the daytime.
[01:08:41] But at night, you can't see anything.
[01:08:44] It's just totally dark.
[01:08:47] And I was thinking, as it was getting dark, first I thought, how many little nervous
[01:08:55] because I can't see, even though I had tremendous night vision, like an owl.
[01:09:02] But I couldn't see.
[01:09:03] And they can't see either.
[01:09:07] And the difference is between us and them is we're not moving.
[01:09:12] They have to move without making any noise.
[01:09:16] If they make any noise, we know where they are.
[01:09:18] We know they're out there.
[01:09:19] So what I did was I created, for me, a 4D bubble around me.
[01:09:28] So I was just start with whatever direction I was facing.
[01:09:34] And then what's out there?
[01:09:37] What sounds do I hear?
[01:09:38] What bugs do I hear?
[01:09:39] What noises do I hear?
[01:09:41] And I take a next quadrant and next quadrant until I've gone all the way around.
[01:09:45] So I knew the sounds on all four quadrants.
[01:09:48] And then I would raise it up because up above you.
[01:09:51] I mean, you've heard, you've got monkeys.
[01:09:52] You've got different things that are happening in the trees, different sounds up there.
[01:09:56] And you incorporate all this together.
[01:10:00] And now you're used to a particular level of noise in each one of these quadrants.
[01:10:06] And then the sound of silence was the trigger.
[01:10:11] I devolved to where I could actually wake up.
[01:10:17] If any quadrant went quiet, it would wake me up.
[01:10:22] If anybody moves in one of those quadrants, the bugs in that area will stop choking.
[01:10:27] They'll just get quiet all of a sudden.
[01:10:29] And if they get quiet, something's out there.
[01:10:33] And that'll work either, where they're coming from.
[01:10:36] And it might be a tiger.
[01:10:38] It might be some other, large animal.
[01:10:41] But something just stopped them, scared them.
[01:10:44] So I decided, the darts my friend, they can't see me.
[01:10:48] And I've got area weapons out there, claymores.
[01:10:52] I can set off the claymore.
[01:10:55] They see a big ball of fire.
[01:10:56] And I take out a bunch of people.
[01:10:59] But they don't know where I am.
[01:11:02] And then the next level of the fried grenades, they're grenades.
[01:11:08] Big ball of fire, a lot of fragments.
[01:11:10] But they don't know where they came from.
[01:11:11] So they still don't see it.
[01:11:12] As long as you don't pull the trigger on their weapon, they don't know where you are.
[01:11:16] So I decided, this is pretty cool when it goes to art.
[01:11:22] Yeah, that's all.
[01:11:23] I'll find you if you're out there.
[01:11:25] How long would it take when you guys would settle into a perimeter?
[01:11:28] How long would it take for the noise, the silence that you had created to escalate again
[01:11:34] to normal jungle levels?
[01:11:36] Within 30 minutes.
[01:11:37] So once everybody's down and the rule was, once you're down you're down, you do not
[01:11:44] move again until morning.
[01:11:48] Because anybody moving is a bad guy.
[01:11:52] And we would all position ourselves so that I could reach echo over here or the ground
[01:12:00] the next side of me to wake him up or alert him something was happening.
[01:12:07] Echoes are, I can't really do this.
[01:12:10] But if I could have you armed, if you want to wake somebody up without terrifying them,
[01:12:16] grab them right there and just slowly squeeze.
[01:12:21] And if you just slowly squeeze like that, what you'll see is their eyes start to open
[01:12:25] up and they just come to you.
[01:12:28] And we train to do that so people in you, if you get squeezed, you open your eyes.
[01:12:34] That's the only thing you move, start listening.
[01:12:36] What are you here?
[01:12:39] And it might be your turn to be on guard or it might be there's any me out here.
[01:12:45] Yeah, that's crazy.
[01:12:46] I just got you kicked in skin from that.
[01:12:48] Well, I can only imagine like you feel that you're a crazy man.
[01:12:53] How long would you guys do 50% security and 50% sleepin or do you guys do less than
[01:12:58] actually really needed?
[01:12:59] Yeah, sometimes we drop down to 30%.
[01:13:02] But I mean, I know teams that everybody goes asleep, but not when they, I'm not going
[01:13:09] there.
[01:13:10] Somebody is going to be a white one here.
[01:13:12] And sometimes you wouldn't sleep on top of it, you had to get off on the side and you
[01:13:19] try to get in a thick, you try to get in a steep area.
[01:13:22] So you learn to sleep, straddle trees.
[01:13:28] So you straddle it.
[01:13:29] So you want to slide on down to hill at night.
[01:13:32] It's a little uncomfortable at first.
[01:13:33] You go, you get set up right, but once you do, you can sleep like that.
[01:13:40] Keep your arms through your rucksack because you want to your rucksack to go with you.
[01:13:44] If you had to leave in a hurry, your low bearing equipment never came off.
[01:13:50] The weapon was always fast until you were a cord that went through a snap link on the
[01:13:55] shoulder of your low bearing gear.
[01:13:58] You'd have it laying across your lap.
[01:14:00] So you could put your hands on it really easy and turn it and shoot it as you had to.
[01:14:06] You had your knife where you could access that easily, quietly, in case you needed.
[01:14:15] And then nobody moved.
[01:14:19] And then that first overnight mission that you did, what was the purpose of the operation?
[01:14:24] We were going to find us relatively small with tang and size element.
[01:14:35] And there's how many of you guys?
[01:14:39] This mission is probably seven.
[01:14:40] So there's seven of you looking for 500 enemy north Vietnamese regulars.
[01:14:46] One of the things, I think, I know it sounds a little crazy.
[01:14:50] One of the things that you have to do is a lot crazy.
[01:14:53] One of the things you have to understand about a sob team is a sob team for small, but
[01:15:01] they carried a really big stick.
[01:15:06] Given the stick might be 30 minutes away, where you could use it.
[01:15:11] Sometimes on our, but man, you had a big stick because if you engage the enemy, as soon
[01:15:19] as you transmitted the word peri-fire over the radio, everything flying within range of
[01:15:26] that team was divided everything.
[01:15:29] Any aircraft that had ordinance on any mission that was going on was set aside.
[01:15:34] It all came to you.
[01:15:36] It was unbelievable.
[01:15:37] I had a mission one time where I had 14 covers in orbit waiting on their turn to come in
[01:15:44] because I had to bring them in between the L-4s that were coming in and the sky readers
[01:15:49] that were coming.
[01:15:50] They were all, I mean, it was just unreal.
[01:15:53] What would show up once you got in trouble?
[01:15:56] Yes, that is the security blanket.
[01:15:59] Although bad weather, then you're in trouble.
[01:16:02] Night time?
[01:16:05] You could do some at night time, but we didn't have the night vision.
[01:16:12] The aircraft didn't have the technology that they have today.
[01:16:15] So, night time was a problem for them.
[01:16:20] You could do something called combat sky spots where the L-4s could come in and drop
[01:16:25] 500 pound bombs, but they were doing it based on radar.
[01:16:29] So, you had to start in like, 2500-3000 meters away and bring them in because you didn't
[01:16:37] know where they were going to land.
[01:16:39] They would be somewhere in that circle, but you had to let something hit and then start
[01:16:46] to work at some.
[01:16:48] The night time could be a problem.
[01:16:51] Yeah.
[01:16:54] You got a book here.
[01:16:55] You mentioned it really quickly.
[01:16:56] It's called the stress effect.
[01:16:58] And it's about leadership and decision making, but you have some stories in it that
[01:17:06] are worth talking about.
[01:17:07] I want to read one of them right now.
[01:17:10] So it says, for almost two years, I had been training the lead of special operations
[01:17:13] to even combat.
[01:17:14] During those two years, I had successfully completed the U.S. Army Ranger School of Special
[01:17:18] Force, the training become a member of the most elite military force in the world.
[01:17:21] When I got to base camp in Vietnam, 1968, I erected a six foot tall two-by-four board
[01:17:26] in the dirt and wrapped hemp rope around the top eight inches of the board to provide a striking
[01:17:31] surface.
[01:17:33] Every day in camp, I pounded a striking pad with my fist and my feet, continuing to improve
[01:17:37] my accuracy and power.
[01:17:38] I had been trained in Ranger and Special Forces, a hand-to-hand combat, and it earned a
[01:17:43] black belt in the Korean martial art of Taekwondo.
[01:17:45] I had become an expert with all special operations weapons as well.
[01:17:51] I quickly found myself.
[01:17:52] So you guys, you had some introduction to martial arts, and they were teaching you guys some
[01:18:00] striking capability.
[01:18:02] Did you guys learn any grappling at all?
[01:18:03] Yeah.
[01:18:04] I mean, you did that in Special Forces and in Ranger School, you did the military version
[01:18:10] of the hand-to-hand.
[01:18:12] But I had trained in Taekwondo when I was in college.
[01:18:19] I broke my hand when I did a little pub, and I thought there's got to be a record.
[01:18:24] You're hand on a pub or?
[01:18:26] No.
[01:18:27] You broke your hand on a pub at a 10D.
[01:18:31] There was an attendee that ran into my hand and broke it and I was thinking, there's
[01:18:38] got to be a better way than this.
[01:18:40] You know, I've seen the guys jumping around doing kung fu or whatever on movies.
[01:18:45] So I found this Taekwondo place, you know, right off campus there, and I went in and
[01:18:52] I said, you know, I need to help him up a little bit.
[01:18:55] I'm tired of getting hurt.
[01:18:57] So.
[01:18:58] Right on.
[01:18:59] Back to the book, I quickly found myself deep inside enemy territory leading my elite team
[01:19:04] of three Americans in four mercenaries on a classified mission.
[01:19:07] Every human within a hundred miles was the enemy.
[01:19:10] The temperature was 110 degrees.
[01:19:12] The humidity was 100%.
[01:19:13] The salt from our own perspiration constantly burned our eyes.
[01:19:17] Mesquitos swarmed.
[01:19:19] Each of us carried 35 to 40 pounds of ammunition grenades and water on our loadbork bearing
[01:19:24] harness and a 75 pound rucksack on our back.
[01:19:28] No one wore an armored vest or helmet because these would add too much extra weight and
[01:19:32] would be too hot.
[01:19:33] We were operating under triple canopy jungle that allowed very little light to come
[01:19:36] through and no air movement.
[01:19:38] It rained every day.
[01:19:39] Everything was wet.
[01:19:40] The bushes in the ground recovered with small leeches that began to move up and down
[01:19:44] frantically when they sensed our body heat thinking they would have a meal soon.
[01:19:48] They attached themselves to us without our noticing them.
[01:19:50] The next day we would find them our faces, chest arms and legs filled with blood and
[01:19:55] the size of our the end being the size of our thumbs.
[01:19:59] The physical and mental stress was very high.
[01:20:01] This type of mission required complete silence.
[01:20:03] No talking for days just hand in arm signals or notes.
[01:20:07] There could be absolutely no noise while moving.
[01:20:10] We were traveling along at a snail's pace of 100 yards an hour.
[01:20:16] Every step in every foot placement were pre-planned.
[01:20:19] Toad down first then slowly the heel.
[01:20:21] This technique was designed to muffle the noise of any small branches that might be broken
[01:20:25] if we accidentally placed our weight on them.
[01:20:28] Each team member had an area of responsibility for maintaining vigilance as we moved.
[01:20:32] We were always looking for booby traps and versus enemy personnel poisonous snakes and
[01:20:36] tigers.
[01:20:38] We couldn't forget the 500 pound hungry tigers.
[01:20:42] We knew a North Vietnamese army force was very close to us.
[01:20:46] We just didn't know exactly where.
[01:20:47] We spent most of the day moving up to the top of a ridge one step at a time without making
[01:20:50] a sound.
[01:20:52] Just as we neared the top the point man signal to us to halt to get down.
[01:20:56] You could hear a large group of enemy soldiers just over the ridge.
[01:20:59] Our hearts began to race and a general in spite.
[01:21:02] Our seven-man team was about to come face to face with over 180 trained North Vietnamese
[01:21:06] army soldiers.
[01:21:08] Our stress level sort and our attention became focused.
[01:21:11] We knew everything we could literally explode at any second.
[01:21:16] The closest help was an hour away.
[01:21:18] We could make no mistakes and we could not be discovered.
[01:21:21] I moved forward into a position to observe the enemy soldiers who were less than 40 yards
[01:21:25] down the other side of the ridge from our location.
[01:21:28] They appeared to have finished eating and were getting ready to move up the ridge towards
[01:21:31] our location.
[01:21:32] I singled the team that we needed to move quickly.
[01:21:36] Although the ground was muddy, slippery and steep, we tried to move as quickly and quietly
[01:21:40] as possible.
[01:21:41] It was going to be very difficult to avoid contact with them and contact would be deadly.
[01:21:46] I was about 20 feet behind the point man, moving deliberately, tightly gripping the handle
[01:21:50] of my car 15 machine gun with my right hand while using my left hand to steady myself
[01:21:55] by grabbing bushes as I moved.
[01:21:57] It started to rain hard, making it even more difficult to get us help if we were discovered.
[01:22:04] We could hear the enemy talking on the other side of the ridge.
[01:22:08] Then out of nowhere, I was hit so hard from the high side of the ridge that my weapon was
[01:22:13] knocked out of my hand and my feet left the ground and I was falling backward down the
[01:22:18] side of the steep ridge.
[01:22:20] Instinctively, I grabbed my attacker as I fell and took him with me.
[01:22:25] My stress level was so high that all my hand to hand combat training automatically kicked
[01:22:29] in.
[01:22:30] I pulled down the inkline and the rain and mud, I literally ripped my attacker limb from
[01:22:34] limb, biting, pulling and breaking any part I could get my hands on.
[01:22:37] I used to every deadly move I knew and actually heard the sounds of bones breaking.
[01:22:43] Although the entire event lasted only a few seconds, it appeared to pass in slow motion,
[01:22:47] a stream of thoughts and questions went through my mind.
[01:22:51] Where did this guy come from?
[01:22:52] How did I miss seeing him?
[01:22:53] Does he have a knife?
[01:22:54] How can I get my knife?
[01:22:55] Is he alone?
[01:22:56] Will he call his comrades before I can silence him?
[01:23:00] And it was over as quickly as it began.
[01:23:02] We were wedged hard against a large tree that stopped our tumble down the ridge.
[01:23:07] The impact momentarily knocked the breath out of me.
[01:23:10] The attacker was not moving.
[01:23:12] Apparently I was the winner.
[01:23:15] All my hand to hand combat training had paid off.
[01:23:19] Looking up the ridge, I saw some of my team members looking down at me with sheer horror
[01:23:23] and shock on their faces.
[01:23:26] It must have been almost as terrifying for them as it was for me I thought.
[01:23:29] Everyone's life hung in the balance but I had won the fight.
[01:23:33] Mano, E Mano.
[01:23:35] I had saved the team.
[01:23:37] As I begin to untangle myself from my attacker, the world suddenly came back into focus.
[01:23:44] Now I had the same horror and shock on my face as my team members did.
[01:23:48] I had just used all my expert hand to hand combat techniques on a banana tree.
[01:23:56] And that part of the world warms, eat around the bottom of the banana trees which weakens
[01:24:00] them and cause them to fall without warning.
[01:24:02] I was lucky enough to be in the right place at the right time and be blindsided by a falling
[01:24:06] banana tree.
[01:24:08] Fortunately, two components to this event ultimately saved us.
[01:24:12] First I was hit so hard and unexpectedly that my weapon was knocked out of my hand preventing
[01:24:15] me from firing at the tree and giving away our position.
[01:24:19] Second it was raining so hard that the enemy soldiers did not notice the commotion.
[01:24:23] We completed our mission and returned to Vietnam unharmed except from my ego.
[01:24:28] I have heard however that banana trees in that part of the world still tremble at the
[01:24:33] mention of my name.
[01:24:36] Good times.
[01:24:41] A little embarrassing.
[01:24:43] But yeah, it was stress level was so high.
[01:24:48] It was just you're locked loaded, you're ready to go and something triggers you and you
[01:24:54] go for it.
[01:24:55] You react.
[01:24:56] It was just the instinct.
[01:24:59] Somebody had me and it was me or him.
[01:25:02] I just unleashed everything I still had until I killed a banana tree.
[01:25:11] Yeah, I can walk by one today even in other countries than the tremble.
[01:25:15] They know.
[01:25:16] They know.
[01:25:17] They know.
[01:25:18] You can see the little lounge turn and watch me to make sure I go on by.
[01:25:24] It is amazing.
[01:25:25] The point of you telling that story, talking about stress and I want that I noticed about
[01:25:30] it is when we are anticipating something.
[01:25:35] Oftentimes we will see what we are anticipating.
[01:25:40] When we are predicting enemy combat, then that's what we are going to see.
[01:25:46] You have another great vignette in here about a shooting that took place in New York.
[01:25:52] It was a guy that was standing in the stoop of a doorway and the police officer CM and
[01:25:58] he looked kind of suspicious and eventually when he moved, they said, oh, he's trying to run
[01:26:06] from us.
[01:26:07] Now they draw their weapons and the next thing he does is reach into his pocket.
[01:26:11] They start shooting and once one person starts shooting, they all start shooting and they
[01:26:15] end up putting 40 plus rounds into the guy and into the shoot very accurately.
[01:26:24] But it turns out that the guy was just a normal citizen that fit the description of the
[01:26:31] description of a person that had conducted some crimes in the area.
[01:26:37] It wasn't like a specific description.
[01:26:40] I think it was like a black guy in this neighborhood.
[01:26:43] Oh, looks pretty close.
[01:26:45] What they anticipated seeing and what they got kind of mentally ready for and then he
[01:26:52] makes a move to get away from them.
[01:26:55] In their mind, he's making a move to get away from them.
[01:26:57] In his mind, he's just trying to get out of the way who knows what these cops are doing,
[01:27:00] but they can't be after me.
[01:27:02] And then the next thing is they're yelling at him, oh, I better get them some ID.
[01:27:06] So he reaches into his pocket.
[01:27:08] What do they think he's reaching for?
[01:27:09] They're anticipating he's reaching for a weapon.
[01:27:11] So they kill him.
[01:27:13] So that's a great lesson learned and you know, you talk a lot in the book, the stress
[01:27:18] effect about you call it awareness being aware of what's going on.
[01:27:23] I always use the word detachment being detached from all the chaos and emotion and what
[01:27:29] a great power it is to have that, you know, it's the same word or different word, same
[01:27:33] meaning, the awareness that you talk about, but that example right there, what you're
[01:27:37] anticipating.
[01:27:38] There's a good chance that what you're anticipating, you're going to see, you're going to
[01:27:42] see reading the numbers of what reality is.
[01:27:45] Yeah, it's not a banana trace.
[01:27:47] No, I've been to me soldier, highly trained in scale and he's trying to take me out and
[01:27:53] doing a good job because I'm falling backwards.
[01:27:55] I can't shoot him.
[01:27:57] Yeah, I mean in the story you're talking about is a approaching and start shooting, you
[01:28:04] know, the first two guys to get the get there, one start shooting and what happens is some
[01:28:12] of the bullets are hitting on different parts of the stoop and start to ricochet back.
[01:28:18] That's right.
[01:28:19] In their mind, he's shooting at him.
[01:28:21] I mean the bullets that come in back out of him, but you think he's shooting, the other
[01:28:24] guy with him trips on the steps and falls.
[01:28:28] So his partners think, man, they hit him, he's down, the other two were up there, they
[01:28:32] think he's down and they all just continue to shoot and innocent guy.
[01:28:40] So we see what we're expecting.
[01:28:42] I have to be careful with that and it happens all the time.
[01:28:47] I've went to adrenaline starts flowing, you're going to do a lot of things that you need
[01:28:54] to keep it under control and there's a part of it.
[01:28:58] Probably get an off track here.
[01:29:00] Some of it is practice, practice, practice, go through the immediate action, do what you
[01:29:07] keep doing it and doing it and doing it.
[01:29:09] One of the things I used to make my guys practice that they really didn't like was when
[01:29:17] we were going on mission because you're going to be out there for so long.
[01:29:22] The one zero cared of medical kit, so I'd have a medical kit with me.
[01:29:28] Everyone there cared, came in a can back then just a little can about that bigger round.
[01:29:35] You had it taped on the back of your web gear and had a bag of ringer solution and
[01:29:40] a blood expander.
[01:29:42] Because when you get hit, most of the time what you die of from a gunshot is you believe
[01:29:50] that they're there.
[01:29:51] You can't get the bloods stopped in time.
[01:29:55] We all care a bag of ringer solution so you could get an IV right there on the spot.
[01:30:02] My thinking was, especially after that first incident when I had a trouble getting the magazine
[01:30:08] and the weapon, I don't want one of my guys trying to put that needle in.
[01:30:12] In that condition, and he's jabbing all over my arm and I'm laying there bleeding the
[01:30:17] death.
[01:30:18] I need to blood so I said, okay guys, he's all we're going to do.
[01:30:21] We have a little practice.
[01:30:23] So I had been over to the dispensary and I had gotten some needles and I brought him over
[01:30:29] and I said, we're going to practice putting the needle in each other.
[01:30:33] So we're getting shot out.
[01:30:36] You've done it before.
[01:30:37] You don't need to first time that you tried to put a needle in the vein, they did not
[01:30:41] like that.
[01:30:42] Like guys, okay, now swap partners.
[01:30:45] Let's do it again.
[01:30:47] And every so often we would go through that drill.
[01:30:49] Let's practice.
[01:30:50] Let's practice opening and again.
[01:30:53] You don't want to have never tried to open that can before when somebody is shooting at
[01:30:57] you.
[01:30:58] And your buddy is bleeding the death.
[01:31:00] You have to have been through the whole process.
[01:31:02] Let's do it.
[01:31:03] Well, these lessons that you learned that you passed on, I mean everything from, you
[01:31:08] know, getting on the ground and patrolling a hundred meters and then waiting.
[01:31:11] That's what we were trying.
[01:31:13] Now, I will say that once you got night vision things are different because you didn't
[01:31:15] need to wait half an hour to let your night vision adjust.
[01:31:18] You could go.
[01:31:20] But, you know, we used to do the same thing.
[01:31:22] We used to get give each other IVs with red lens flashlights at night underneath the
[01:31:25] poncho because that's what you're going to have to do.
[01:31:28] And so those are the kind of things that you have to train.
[01:31:32] And people that think that that horrible thought that creeps in your mind that well
[01:31:39] when the time rises, when the time arises, all of all know what to do.
[01:31:43] That is not the truth right there.
[01:31:46] I got a quick question for you.
[01:31:48] How did you get the name dynamite?
[01:31:49] Was that your nickname to day assigned that to you?
[01:31:52] Because I'm surprised at this point your nickname wasn't banana tree.
[01:31:56] Fortunately, you got your code name on day one.
[01:32:03] After we got the briefing, the name, and then we had to select a code name.
[01:32:10] I wanted Ranger.
[01:32:11] Ranger was already taken.
[01:32:14] So they said here are some others.
[01:32:17] I saw dynamite and I said, you know, I really do like the blow things up.
[01:32:23] I'm small and you know, dynamite probably works for me.
[01:32:29] I believe my neighbors went to Zout when there was a teenager one time with a rocket to
[01:32:33] explode it on my launch pad.
[01:32:37] I didn't intend for that to happen.
[01:32:39] But yeah, I was always blowing things up.
[01:32:42] And then when I was there in Southeast Asia, I believe things up all the time.
[01:32:48] I believe Virges up, I believe, all kinds of things.
[01:32:51] And I always cared a lot of demo with me.
[01:32:55] Good nickname.
[01:32:57] And that was your call sign too, was that your call sign when you're in the field?
[01:33:00] No, no.
[01:33:01] No, and well, it would be my call sign if I was wounded or something like that.
[01:33:07] But call signs that we use are always three letter groups.
[01:33:11] Okay, got them.
[01:33:13] All right, you mentioned in your notes here that you gave me an off where you guys hit with,
[01:33:19] you guys got hit with gas.
[01:33:21] Yeah, that was, that had to be unexpected.
[01:33:24] That was still with Dex team.
[01:33:26] Yeah, we had planned and rehearsed for everything.
[01:33:33] We went in.
[01:33:34] It was on the hotelsy or didn't appear to be.
[01:33:37] We didn't throw any fire going in.
[01:33:39] We got off the aircraft, the aircraft, you know, took off.
[01:33:45] We're on the ground and all of a sudden, you know, we couldn't see.
[01:33:49] You couldn't breathe.
[01:33:50] This stuff is coming across the LZ and, you know, we're coughing in Gagin because we didn't
[01:33:56] have masks with us.
[01:33:58] Mask, we're like helmets and plankbakers.
[01:34:02] That's extra waste you got to carry.
[01:34:05] And unless we were intended to use gas, we didn't carry it because it was just very, very
[01:34:11] rare that the NVA would use gas.
[01:34:16] In this case, we're on LZ, here comes the gas.
[01:34:20] We're not prepared for it.
[01:34:21] We had to call, you know, for the aircraft to come back and get us out.
[01:34:25] It creates a real problem for pilots.
[01:34:28] If they, if they don't have masks, and now all of a sudden they're getting all of the
[01:34:33] the gas coming in, you know, it's hard for them to see the instrument panel to be able to
[01:34:37] fly, you know, what they came back in and they got us out.
[01:34:41] It was, it wasn't a pleasant experience.
[01:34:44] And it was one of those things we didn't plan for it.
[01:34:48] You know, because it was such a rarity, we just didn't do it.
[01:34:52] I was surprised we went through a gear list with tilt and they always carry the gas mask.
[01:34:57] And of course, because they always carry the gas mask, you know how many times they came
[01:35:00] across, they think the number was zero.
[01:35:02] Murphy's law.
[01:35:03] Yeah.
[01:35:04] You know, a lot of times we would carry gas, we'd carry regular, you know, like a CS grenade.
[01:35:13] The CS grenade, but we'd also carry the CS rounds for the M49, the 40 millimeter.
[01:35:19] So we could shoot those.
[01:35:20] But if we carried, I've CS or are the grenades, then, you know, we carried the mask too.
[01:35:28] But it was the mass, because we were going to use them.
[01:35:33] And, you know, if you use gas, you better have a mask.
[01:35:36] Are you going to use bad off as the other gas goes without fail?
[01:35:39] The wind's going to change.
[01:35:41] And it's got got right back on you and your interval.
[01:35:45] Murphy's law.
[01:35:47] You got another note and hear about a mission.
[01:35:50] It says tree roots.
[01:35:54] And this was, I think this, this was my last mission with RT Alabama, with, with, with deck.
[01:36:03] And we had gone up, we made a little fish hook, we came back.
[01:36:07] It was early afternoon.
[01:36:09] We were going to take a break for a little while.
[01:36:12] So we had put that, the clay mowers, I had put a toe pop around.
[01:36:17] And there were some strange trees in that area.
[01:36:21] I'm still not sure what they were called, but they almost looked like rockets with fins.
[01:36:29] The roots kind of came out.
[01:36:30] I mean, you know, they grow up the tree, maybe two feet or so.
[01:36:35] And they'd come out like fins all the way around.
[01:36:39] So we were taking a break.
[01:36:40] So I thought, yeah, I'll just lay down between, you know, these roots.
[01:36:47] And, you know, you won't be able to see me because I'm kind of down in there.
[01:36:52] And that's where I'll take my break.
[01:36:55] And then we hear the toe popper go off.
[01:36:59] I hear that loud scream.
[01:37:00] And seeing as a toe popper went off, it just was a garage of AK 47-fire coming.
[01:37:07] Some of it, you know, in higher directions, some of it in other directions.
[01:37:10] They didn't know exactly where you were.
[01:37:12] But in that first garage coming through, I had three AK rounds come through the root on my left side.
[01:37:20] Right across my shirt, I had just exhale.
[01:37:24] And through the root on the other side, if I had just inhale, it would take in the
[01:37:29] top of my chest off when it came by.
[01:37:31] So it just grays me, you know, coming across and I'd probably see a get out of here.
[01:37:39] So I got the roots or not providing any, you know, actual cover forming just a little
[01:37:45] concealment.
[01:37:46] So I jumped around behind the tree and, you know, we set off to clay moors, had a full
[01:37:50] of ledge, you know, a firefight going on, eventually had to work gunshilts and things
[01:37:56] and get extracted.
[01:37:59] One of the things that I also did was, got another taste of the impact of adrenaline.
[01:38:06] Because when I came out from behind the tree, I had taken my arms out of the straps on the
[01:38:12] rucksack.
[01:38:13] So I had to grab it with my hand.
[01:38:16] I grabbed it with my left hand.
[01:38:18] You know, it weighed probably 75 pounds.
[01:38:20] But I'm not a big guy, but I'm tossing that 75 pound rucksack around like it's a pillow.
[01:38:29] And, you know, it's going to go with me as we fight our way down the ridge and toward the
[01:38:35] OZ.
[01:38:37] But I paid for it, you know, later on, you know, I actually got extracted and it realized
[01:38:41] I had pulled muscles in my shoulders.
[01:38:44] Because I'm muscle, so I'm just trying to handle that much weight.
[01:38:48] I had so much adrenaline pumping, pumping through my system then.
[01:38:52] Yeah.
[01:38:53] So as soon as you guys get contacted, as soon as that those rounds start coming, you're
[01:38:57] calling prayer and fire emergency.
[01:38:59] Prayer fire.
[01:39:00] And then how long is it taken before aircraft show up on station?
[01:39:05] Usually you'll have something within 30 minutes that you might be able to work against
[01:39:10] you for something like that.
[01:39:11] But for the extraction ships, it might be an hour depending on how far in there you are.
[01:39:17] And it might be longer than that.
[01:39:20] But if you had bad weather, nobody's coming.
[01:39:24] I think I say, you know, they can't find you.
[01:39:27] How good was the weather prediction at that time?
[01:39:31] You know, if you guys, were you guys able to look out in a day and say, okay, there's
[01:39:33] that there's going to be storms moving through here tomorrow?
[01:39:37] We, at the different CNCs, we had our own Air Force meteorologist that tracked a weather
[01:39:45] briefing and gave a weather briefing to a three times a day, you know, to the command group.
[01:39:51] The teams would get them.
[01:39:52] We would get them before we would go out so that we would know what to expect.
[01:39:59] And, you know, we didn't launch unless the weather looked like it was going to be good.
[01:40:03] You know, for the insertion, because you didn't want to get out there and all of a sudden,
[01:40:07] you couldn't use the assets that you had with it.
[01:40:10] So, but still, it's kind of like today, the best weather predictions that are made by
[01:40:17] the ones that day after, you know, we can tell you what probably happened yesterday or at
[01:40:22] least with a high probability of what happened yesterday.
[01:40:26] But the weather change, you know, it's where we were northmost of the time, it was a rain
[01:40:32] forest.
[01:40:33] I mean, it's got rain.
[01:40:35] It's going to rain.
[01:40:36] And the clouds would roll right down on top of the mountain and just totally conceal it,
[01:40:45] conceal the reslines.
[01:40:46] So, not only are you under triple canopy jungle, a lot.
[01:40:51] Now, you've got a cloud cover over it.
[01:40:53] I mean, up above that, they can see fine, but they can't see where you are.
[01:40:58] They can't, you know, fire the flare out.
[01:41:01] They won't see them because they're in the clouds.
[01:41:05] Is it always the one zero that's carrying the radio and talking to the aircraft or who
[01:41:11] usually was doing that for you?
[01:41:13] I know that tilt said he did it.
[01:41:15] He would be like, yep, I'm going to talk to the aircraft.
[01:41:18] Most of the time, I carried the radio.
[01:41:20] I mean, you had, you had a guy, you know, one of the three Americans was supposed to be
[01:41:25] carrying the radio.
[01:41:28] Usually the one two, if you had a one two, but I carried mine almost all the time.
[01:41:37] But even if I didn't carry it, I wanted to talk.
[01:41:39] So, bringing it over here, I want to tell them what I need to have done.
[01:41:46] So, you know, that gave me another 25 pounds plus depending on how many batteries I carried.
[01:41:52] More weight to go in my rucksack.
[01:41:55] And that's if we used, you know, the PRC 25 or 701.
[01:42:00] But I think tilt mentioned that one point we had a commander take over CCN who said,
[01:42:09] you're going to carry the KY38, a secure radio, which, you know, the PRC 701 was about 25
[01:42:18] pounds, and then it had to connect into the KY38, which was the same square.
[01:42:28] But thicker, you know, and they had to fasten together.
[01:42:32] So, some people would stack up on a rucksack one under the other.
[01:42:37] Most people were wearing 77 in the back and 38 in the front to help you balance, you know,
[01:42:45] going up and down the heels and getting theory.
[01:42:48] But, you know, to me, and my experience said, the more you can look like an empty pair
[01:42:58] of fatigues laying on the ground, the greater your chance of survival when somebody is
[01:43:03] shooting at you.
[01:43:04] So, the more stuff you put on your chest or around your waist that raises you up in the
[01:43:10] air makes you more of a trombone.
[01:43:11] I mean, I get my rucksack shot up all the time.
[01:43:14] I'm happy laying there and bullets it was a thing and they're the rucksack because
[01:43:18] it was sticking up, you know, about me.
[01:43:20] But when you put that KY38 on your chest, that pushes your body up and other six things
[01:43:26] is in the air.
[01:43:27] So, now the chances of you getting hit, it's the other rucksack go up.
[01:43:32] So, I didn't like to carry it.
[01:43:35] I want to use it a few times.
[01:43:37] I mean, it had a pretty high malfunction rate.
[01:43:41] And then, because it's not just on you, you've got to make sure that the aircraft that
[01:43:45] you're trying to talk to is running their encryption device.
[01:43:47] Yeah, everybody has to have that same encryption, which is an interesting story.
[01:43:53] We may get to a little later about that.
[01:43:55] But, yeah, it was a pain.
[01:43:59] But I wanted to talk on the radio.
[01:44:02] And you guys didn't, I know, till they didn't carry like a belt-fed machine gun in their
[01:44:07] elements.
[01:44:08] And I think he said they never did, which to me was surprising.
[01:44:12] Because like, you talked to Vietnam, sea-opthoons, and even like my sea-opthoons in Iraq,
[01:44:18] we carried as many belt-fed machine guns as we could.
[01:44:22] We wanted to have massive firepower.
[01:44:24] But I guess for you guys, the jungle, the weight, it was too much.
[01:44:31] My team carried one, a name 60 machine gun.
[01:44:37] The same 60s are heavy.
[01:44:39] They are heavy indeed.
[01:44:41] My team carried one time, because I thought it would be cool.
[01:44:47] I carried the machine gun, because I thought, man, the firepower I'll have with this thing.
[01:44:54] I can show those guys on the other side here what war is all about.
[01:45:01] And we made contact, and I opened up with that baby.
[01:45:04] And I learned to lessen really quickly.
[01:45:08] And it made sense when it happened, because we always teach.
[01:45:14] You've got to take the machine gun out.
[01:45:16] Ship's you fired a wherever that machine gun is.
[01:45:18] Take that joke around.
[01:45:19] And that's what they did.
[01:45:21] And all of a sudden, everybody's shooting at me.
[01:45:23] I said you were on this spot.
[01:45:24] You were on this spot.
[01:45:25] You were on this spot.
[01:45:26] You were on this spot.
[01:45:27] You were on this spot.
[01:45:28] I mean, this stuff is just coming in all me.
[01:45:29] And it's just eating everything up.
[01:45:31] And I'm getting behind a tree and keeping my head around.
[01:45:33] I'm shooting the machine gun around the side of the tree.
[01:45:36] But I can't really see what I'm doing.
[01:45:38] But I couldn't take my head around there.
[01:45:40] They take it all.
[01:45:41] So after that mission, that's enough of that.
[01:45:44] I mean, I'm not carrying it.
[01:45:46] Now, when we put teams together to make what we call a spike team, where we were going
[01:45:52] in with the intent of engaging the enemy and not running, then we would carry two M60s at
[01:46:03] least.
[01:46:04] And then, when you carry an M60, everybody on a team has to carry M60 ammo.
[01:46:10] I mean, everybody's got at least 100 ground belt with them.
[01:46:14] You know, plus the machine gun is carrying all that extra weight.
[01:46:16] So I mean, it doesn't just weight down the machine gun.
[01:46:20] Everybody on a team now is still going to carry all those 40 millimeter, you know,
[01:46:25] grenades with them for the M79.
[01:46:27] You still got to carry that.
[01:46:29] You still got to carry your extra clay mowers.
[01:46:31] You got to carry all your mission equipment.
[01:46:33] And now I'm giving another 15 20 pounds of machine gun ammo to carry along with you.
[01:46:38] And there's only five or six of you.
[01:46:41] Is the weight just goes up so fast that we didn't do it.
[01:46:45] Yeah, and I guess another note I'm sitting here thinking about it.
[01:46:47] The fact that you guys were in generally enclosed terrain, pretty tight.
[01:46:53] It wasn't like you needed massive cover fire to cover ground to put, you know, you could
[01:46:58] even have to fire maneuver because you take three steps and all of a sudden the enemy
[01:47:01] can't see you anymore.
[01:47:02] Yeah.
[01:47:03] So that makes a little bit of sense too.
[01:47:05] What was your opt-emple like, you know, we're talking about these missions.
[01:47:07] How often were you guys going out?
[01:47:10] Yeah, that's an interesting story and that it varied by team.
[01:47:16] And like, well, and the 12 months that I was there, I went out 18 times, which was
[01:47:26] wavering on, wavering on what an officer led team would do.
[01:47:32] I don't know that the other team would go out that frequently, you know, in that
[01:47:37] short appeared.
[01:47:39] The paper that you signed when you joined SAB said, you know, a lot of volunteer to go
[01:47:44] anywhere, do anything for six months or six missions, whichever comes first, got it.
[01:47:52] At the end of the six missions or the six months, I've got to say, I've got to say,
[01:47:56] I've volunteered to do it some more.
[01:47:58] So you had this, you know, a little safety vibe in there to give you a chance to kind
[01:48:05] of wake up and say, this is not a smart thing to do.
[01:48:10] And here's my ticket to do something different.
[01:48:13] Right.
[01:48:14] Right.
[01:48:15] Well, that's sort of like the bombers in World War II that had to do 25 missions over
[01:48:20] Europe.
[01:48:21] And if they didn't 25, then they could go and do something else.
[01:48:25] Go home.
[01:48:26] Most of them didn't make it.
[01:48:28] But yeah, that's pretty telling when they say that you only have to complete six
[01:48:33] missions that doesn't sound like a big deal.
[01:48:34] You must be thinking yourself if they only want me to do six of these things, they
[01:48:38] got to be pretty hairy.
[01:48:39] If I only have to go out six times and six months, I mean, I've got to get
[01:48:42] to deal, you know, the grunts are going out every day and fighting, you know, or doing
[01:48:48] something or being exposed.
[01:48:49] So, you had that, and remember that sag missions, a sag mission really is an out-of-country
[01:49:03] mission.
[01:49:04] You know, as tilt says across the fence, you're going to another country.
[01:49:08] When you see the casualties, you know, the KIAs of sag, at least in the beginning, they
[01:49:18] all said, it's not where they were killed.
[01:49:24] So you were going out.
[01:49:25] But in between those missions, you might do something in-country.
[01:49:32] Lynn Black, one of the tilt-spig buddies they were on the same team and stuff for a while,
[01:49:38] Lynn was, you know, just an unbelievable one-zero.
[01:49:44] And he and I, you know, kind of became friends in between missions, we would do things
[01:49:49] like, why don't we take somewhere guys tonight?
[01:49:52] And let's go with a marble mountain set up on ambush.
[01:49:54] I guarantee you will get somebody to do that.
[01:49:57] Let's go do that.
[01:49:58] What about tomorrow afternoon?
[01:49:59] You want to take some of our guys, let's go search some of the caves in Marble Mountain.
[01:50:04] Those dokers are in there, which is that's fine.
[01:50:06] So we would do a lot of things like that, just for fun.
[01:50:12] So that was a speed.
[01:50:13] But you know, because, you know, compared to the regular mission, I mean, this isn't
[01:50:17] a little brainer.
[01:50:18] You just go with their new shoes, some people.
[01:50:20] You know, you catch them in the cave and hold them there.
[01:50:22] There are 40 miles deep in the Cambodia alone.
[01:50:25] And when we, you know, we can be back in time for lunch.
[01:50:28] I mean, let's go do this.
[01:50:31] So, and then you had, you know, Marble Mountains or two combat outpost teams would rotate
[01:50:37] up there.
[01:50:38] You had to keep, you know, two teams up there all the time.
[01:50:41] So in between the missions, you know, you might go up there for a week or two weeks of the
[01:50:46] time and then come back down a start mission, for another mission, and to go back out.
[01:50:53] So it wasn't like you were just setting around in between the missions.
[01:50:57] You were always doing something, plus you've done a lot of training and preparation for
[01:51:02] the next mission that you had coming up.
[01:51:04] So you stayed pretty busy.
[01:51:07] How long would it take you to brief a mission when you were going on?
[01:51:10] Well, we might start with our initial briefing as a day briefing.
[01:51:18] This is what we're going to go to do.
[01:51:19] We're going to go do it and depending on what the mission was, I might say, okay.
[01:51:24] So we're going to go over the place that was called Mucky Mountain.
[01:51:30] We're going over to Mucky Mountain because it's a good place over there for us to rehearse
[01:51:35] the actual mission, the raid, the ambush, whatever it was we're going to do.
[01:51:40] We can go over there and get in some realistic rehearsals.
[01:51:45] So we might go spend a few days over there, just doing that.
[01:51:49] While we're there, we rehearse our RLN procedures, putting on clay moars where they would
[01:51:55] put them.
[01:51:56] I would put the team in a different place every night so that you had to look at the
[01:52:02] train we're in now.
[01:52:04] What's the most likely approach is what do we need to defend the clay moars?
[01:52:07] Where do we put the tow hoppers?
[01:52:09] What's our avenue of egress?
[01:52:11] How do we get out of here?
[01:52:12] If they come out of some of those tracks and of those tracks and where do we go?
[01:52:16] Where are the closest LZs that we're going to go to?
[01:52:19] And how do we get there?
[01:52:21] Everybody needs to know that.
[01:52:23] Whether you're American or indeed you've got to know where it is, you've got to know
[01:52:26] how to get there.
[01:52:27] So we would do the training like that, but particularly mission specific for what we're
[01:52:33] coming up on.
[01:52:35] And then as you got closer, you get much more specific and then when you got
[01:52:39] to the launch site, you would have the mission briefing where your air assets would be
[01:52:45] there.
[01:52:46] So the pilots who are going to fly your insertion, their gunship pilots, air force representative
[01:52:53] for the A1E, that we're going to be there, the L4s that we're going to be there.
[01:52:58] So you would have the big briefing there, everybody would agree on everything and make
[01:53:02] sure you had all the call signs and everything down and contingency actions.
[01:53:08] And the Covey, I don't know anything about him, we'd always have a Covey out there with
[01:53:13] a forward air controller that we could talk to and could look down and tell us what he was
[01:53:19] seeing.
[01:53:20] It might be of the see the bad guys coming to us or whatever.
[01:53:24] You get more assets for us.
[01:53:27] So it was a big deal.
[01:53:31] And because you might have four gunships, two to four A1E's, generators, two to four
[01:53:41] L4s, you've got Covey, you've got the insertion ships that you're going in with,
[01:53:48] you've got trailing ships in case those get shot down that are flying empty so they can
[01:53:54] drop down and pick you up.
[01:53:56] Sometimes you might have a ship with a medics in it because you're expecting casualties.
[01:54:03] So it could be a big air shell sometimes going in and if you were going, if you're going
[01:54:09] to North Vietnam, you had to have the F4s.
[01:54:13] I mean, it was just required for the mission.
[01:54:17] Some of the others, and Lousy Cambodia, you could go without the F4s to use the A1E
[01:54:23] generators, but if you go in North Vietnam, you've got to have the F4s with you because
[01:54:28] they could send a mig down there and ask you if they wanted to.
[01:54:31] So you had to worry about air cover as well as hitting big targets.
[01:54:37] And the F4s, you know, you can get your attention real fast.
[01:54:42] And they're the skyriders, you know, do too because they fly low, slow, and they're
[01:54:49] carrying their own weight in the ordinance and they can put it right next to you.
[01:54:54] Do you tell them where you want that 20 millimeters hitting 10 feet over there and ride
[01:54:58] along with Ajay or whatever the ordinance they're carrying?
[01:55:02] Maybe you get to your attention.
[01:55:04] I mean those, those jokers are good.
[01:55:07] All right.
[01:55:09] So how many missions did you do with RT Alabama?
[01:55:13] A4.
[01:55:20] And then after that, did you get the up check from deck to become a 1-0?
[01:55:21] Yeah.
[01:55:22] So I had gotten that.
[01:55:24] I mean, I already, I had it before we did the 4, but we knew that FOB1 was going to close
[01:55:30] down and when it closed down, the teams were going to get scattered around.
[01:55:36] So I knew I would get a team, but I would get one somewhere else.
[01:55:42] So we just stayed together, you know, for those 4 missions and then when we moved, when
[01:55:50] I moved to Dane to CCN, then I took over RT Michigan.
[01:55:59] And RT Michigan was the one that had, I don't remember who the 1-0 had been on that one,
[01:56:08] that Elden Bargewell was the 1-1 on that one.
[01:56:15] So I took over that and, you know, the guy was, he was being listed.
[01:56:22] He got the type.
[01:56:23] He just back 4, I think.
[01:56:25] Yeah.
[01:56:26] I mean, he was already alleged.
[01:56:28] Well, he, he already had a good reputation.
[01:56:30] Good reputation.
[01:56:31] Yeah.
[01:56:32] So we, you know, he got along well because I had to ask about him because I didn't, you
[01:56:39] know, he was a different company, nobody.
[01:56:42] So I had to ask about him and everybody I talked to said, man, you know, this guy was
[01:56:46] good.
[01:56:47] He had, he was asking everyone else about you too.
[01:56:51] He was asking about me and he, he don't.
[01:56:54] And I said, well, why did they tell you?
[01:56:57] And he said, well, I talked to, you know, Sergeant Jones and, you know, it was impressive
[01:57:04] because he said, and, you know, I had total faith in him.
[01:57:08] He said, Thompson is the only lieutenant I've ever met that you could give a mapping
[01:57:15] compass to and he could tell you where he was and he could navigate you to any place
[01:57:21] you wanted to go.
[01:57:22] And he said, you just don't find a lieutenant like that.
[01:57:26] So he, you know, bargeals that was good enough for him.
[01:57:29] And if I knew where we were, yeah, so isn't it surprising that that would be a skill
[01:57:35] that's so needed and that people didn't actually have it sometimes.
[01:57:40] It's crazy.
[01:57:42] And these days, well, you know, kids are relying on the GPS and they forget about some
[01:57:47] of those land nav skills and it always cracked me up because they're now they're to a
[01:57:52] point where they really rely on the GPS, they don't know their pace count and, you
[01:57:57] know, I'd be walking on the training operation, you know, it's okay, you know, just not even
[01:58:02] thinking about looking at a GPS because I did a map study and know where we're at.
[01:58:06] And those younger guys, you know, they just, they just don't have this, not all of them
[01:58:09] of course, you know, we still get some guys that are great at it, but it's just a different
[01:58:13] time.
[01:58:14] So you take over this, you take over this new team, you got barge well, which I'm sure
[01:58:20] you heard me talking about it with Tilt, but you know, he was when I was a young officer,
[01:58:27] I just got picked up for a commission and I went to Germany and he was the guy in charge
[01:58:31] over there.
[01:58:32] And so, and my boss who was an outstanding guy who was a great mentor to me, but he, he
[01:58:39] would kind of tell me, you know, about the old man.
[01:58:42] He'd say, barge well, said this and barge well, said that, you know, so that was pretty
[01:58:45] neat for me to make this connection.
[01:58:47] And here you are, said to here that actually he was your, he was your one one.
[01:58:52] Yeah.
[01:58:53] And he, I mean, he was very knowledgeable, very good.
[01:58:59] And I, you know, I was impressed with him right from the beginning.
[01:59:01] I thought, I mean, this guy's good.
[01:59:05] And, you know, when we went out on an operation, he's this cool and calm.
[01:59:13] You know, when his shooting started, I mean, he was good.
[01:59:16] But, I mean, he had, he had experience.
[01:59:19] I mean, he was a case-eye with a team there, the Siege of case-eye.
[01:59:23] I mean, he was, he was there.
[01:59:25] I mean, where they just got hammered for, you know, several weeks there.
[01:59:31] He was, you know, there were that special forces of detachment.
[01:59:35] He had recruited, actually, had recruited some of the team members that we had.
[01:59:39] And this was the yard team.
[01:59:40] You know, they all liked him.
[01:59:44] They all had a lot of respect for him.
[01:59:48] And he, you know, he was a support guy.
[01:59:51] I just never thought then, you know, where he would end up.
[01:59:57] I figured, you know, if he doesn't get killed, he's probably going to be somebody at some
[02:00:04] point.
[02:00:05] But I didn't expect to see him.
[02:00:10] I don't know, I guess it was in the late 70s.
[02:00:14] I saw him at Fort Bragg.
[02:00:16] No, I guess it was in the 80s.
[02:00:19] I saw him at Fort Bragg.
[02:00:22] And he was a captain.
[02:00:25] And I'm thinking, you know, I can be a captain.
[02:00:30] I'm a major.
[02:00:32] You were a spectator.
[02:00:33] Last time I saw you, the now you were a captain.
[02:00:37] And I, you know, I thought that was great.
[02:00:40] So we hung out a little bit.
[02:00:41] He was in Delta.
[02:00:43] So we chatted about, you know, Delta Forest and all that kind of stuff.
[02:00:49] And, you know, I had some good times all day, they were together at Bragg.
[02:00:53] And then I guess, you know, the next time I actually saw him, he was a major.
[02:01:01] And he used that to come in and go into the Commander Journal of Staff College.
[02:01:06] And I'm thinking, I'm about to get promoted, but I'm still a major too.
[02:01:10] I just, I just got to do in this.
[02:01:13] And, you know, the next thing, he's a lieutenant colonel.
[02:01:16] And then he's a full colonel and, you know, ends up a major general.
[02:01:21] And he just constantly going.
[02:01:23] And everybody kept telling me, get out of special forces.
[02:01:27] Special forces is a kiss of death or an officer.
[02:01:30] You stay in special forces.
[02:01:32] You're not going anywhere.
[02:01:34] He did. I mean, not only the, the great on that tour with Sog, he did a second tour.
[02:01:45] He ended up, no command, not just being in Delta.
[02:01:49] He came back and commanded Delta Forest.
[02:01:52] And then overall, special operations and all this kind of stuff.
[02:01:55] I mean, just unbelievable.
[02:01:58] Do you notice any qualities?
[02:01:59] I mean, you said you looked at him and you were like, oh, yeah, this guy will do well.
[02:02:03] If he lives, was there any qualities that stand out?
[02:02:07] You know, if you're, if you're a young, enlisted guy in the army right now or in any branch
[02:02:13] and you said yourself, you know, I want to be a good soldier.
[02:02:16] Is there anything that you noticed about him that you would give us like guidance to young,
[02:02:20] young trooper out there?
[02:02:21] He was mission focus.
[02:02:24] You tell him, this is what you need to do or, or you need to go.
[02:02:28] I mean, he's gonna make it happen.
[02:02:30] Cool, calm.
[02:02:33] He was a smart guy.
[02:02:34] I mean, he didn't brag about it.
[02:02:37] When you talk to him, it's just very humble.
[02:02:43] And, but you could tell, I mean, he smart.
[02:02:46] I mean, he's thinking about what you're saying and what he comes out with and when he
[02:02:50] makes recommendations and talks about things, you need to be listening because he's
[02:02:55] thought to step through.
[02:02:59] No fear from a combat perspective.
[02:03:01] I mean, if the bad guys are coming, he's gonna take them out and you know, demonstrate
[02:03:07] it out, you know, on several occasions with me, demonstrated it later on.
[02:03:13] I think you got, I think you got hit the next mission after he was with me.
[02:03:21] But he had put on a K47 vest.
[02:03:25] You know, so got shot and shot and the charge.
[02:03:27] The charge is the inner self.
[02:03:28] Yeah.
[02:03:29] You know, he poked through enough to make a little hole in him, but it didn't go all the
[02:03:34] way through, you know.
[02:03:37] But, and any, you know, on another mission, he got shot a couple more times and another
[02:03:44] mission.
[02:03:45] He'd be 40 rocket hit the team.
[02:03:47] Everybody was wanted to hit.
[02:03:49] He had a piece of a trap, he'll go in through his cheek and kind of lied by his eye.
[02:03:55] You know, so he's bleeding like a stuck pig and, you know, the bad guys are coming and,
[02:04:00] you know, he takes out 20 of them.
[02:04:02] But he's got an RPD, you know, the Soviet kind of a light machine gun.
[02:04:10] And he just taken people out right and left, you know, with the whole, everybody wanted
[02:04:14] to include in him.
[02:04:15] But that's what he did.
[02:04:19] The only general on record that for a personal firearm, carried an eight-year-old
[02:04:25] AK-47, an AK-47.
[02:04:29] He's blocking the hands of general officers and he's still having that little pop gun on his
[02:04:33] hip.
[02:04:34] He's got an AK-47 slung over his shoulder and he's telling, you know, his aids and body
[02:04:40] guards, hey, if we get in trouble, you know, worry about me.
[02:04:44] Say, do you guys take care of yourself?
[02:04:45] I'll take care of me.
[02:04:47] And, you know, just down real.
[02:04:50] That's that.
[02:04:55] We spent a lot of time up on a marble mountain together.
[02:05:00] With the rotation and stuff, so we spent time there.
[02:05:05] So we'd have those little fights, most nights.
[02:05:08] The bad guys trying to come up and get us.
[02:05:10] That's night-pursed, shoot at us just before dark.
[02:05:13] There was one cave opening that was almost on our level.
[02:05:19] I don't know, 50 meters away from us.
[02:05:23] That if they worked their way up to that opening, they could shoot just about into us at night.
[02:05:30] I've got videos of that cave and you can see how the marble is just chipped off all round
[02:05:38] the opening of that cave where we're shooting out of a night when they're up in there and stuff.
[02:05:46] It was a good relationship.
[02:05:50] So one of the things you got in here in your notes is you guys did a mission.
[02:05:55] RT-Mesh again.
[02:05:57] And you guys inserted into the Layotion border with 101st Airborne.
[02:06:03] It sounded like a pretty good trick, you know, kind of a...
[02:06:07] It was kind of a...
[02:06:09] When they told us what they wanted us to do, I thought,
[02:06:13] this sounds like a Ranger School.
[02:06:16] This is exactly a scenario in Ranger School.
[02:06:19] What did they tell you they wanted you to do?
[02:06:22] This was going to be a walk-in mission, so we would start on the Vietnam side of the border
[02:06:29] and we would walk over and to the area they wanted us to go to.
[02:06:35] And they wanted us to do that from position where the 101st was currently located.
[02:06:41] So there was a battalion from the 101st that was set up right on the border.
[02:06:47] And so they coordinated to have us have our team put on still pots.
[02:06:54] All that kind of stuff came on those...
[02:06:56] The resupply helicopters.
[02:06:57] We came in with a resupply like we were, you know, new troops coming to be there when we jumped off.
[02:07:05] And then they put us in the perimeter of it, but in a section.
[02:07:11] And said, do you need to dig in?
[02:07:15] You know, and all the little guys were looking around saying,
[02:07:19] what?
[02:07:20] You need to dig a hole, flocks over to get in, finding a musician.
[02:07:24] And the response, we don't dig.
[02:07:26] So you need to dig.
[02:07:28] I mean, we're out here with people, you know, you know, bullets going everywhere.
[02:07:32] We need to dig in, so the good thing we did goes, got a little hairy.
[02:07:36] You know, it was nice to be able to get down in a hole.
[02:07:41] And then I met with the company commander and the team leaders.
[02:07:46] And they're forward to observer.
[02:07:49] And I gave them our plan.
[02:07:52] You know, here's what we're going to do.
[02:07:55] But what shocked them was, I said, okay.
[02:07:59] These coordinates, I want you to pre plan that as an artillery target.
[02:08:06] And here's the name of it.
[02:08:08] And I want one here and here and here and these are the names.
[02:08:12] All I'm going to do is call that name out.
[02:08:15] You know, target Roger.
[02:08:19] I'm not going to give you coordinates.
[02:08:21] You got to have that already planned.
[02:08:23] Now I say Roger, I expect the artillery.
[02:08:26] I never had artillery before.
[02:08:28] So this was great.
[02:08:29] We've never in range of artillery.
[02:08:31] And all of a sudden I guided I planned.
[02:08:32] I planned it stuff all over the place.
[02:08:34] And so the, we did the next morning was that first light we went down to the stream with the water resupply team.
[02:08:43] They'd go down and fill all the canteens and things up and bring them up.
[02:08:47] So we went down with them dressed like the hundred first.
[02:08:50] And when we got down there, you know, we changed into our Batman suits and gave them the helmets and flat jackets and all that stuff.
[02:08:57] And they threw them in bags and carried them back up.
[02:09:00] And we just, you know, went on across the river and to the jungle there on our mission.
[02:09:06] So hoping that the bad guys thought, you know, nobody had come in that way.
[02:09:12] So I went out on our mission.
[02:09:14] There was, there was a hatchet force, baton that had been inserted, you know, much farther out in the valley.
[02:09:23] But we, we went in and, I mean, it was, it was just, you know, different and a cool way to do something.
[02:09:31] And then, you know, when we got in contact, you know, when I call for those targets, they put it right on them.
[02:09:39] So that was a cool thing.
[02:09:42] It was interesting that we had barge well and the one too that was on the other side.
[02:09:50] And the one too that was on the team with us.
[02:09:55] We had a little disagreement about our exact location.
[02:10:01] And I'm telling those two, no, I'm telling you, we are right here.
[02:10:06] Nice and no, you're 200 meters off.
[02:10:09] This is no way.
[02:10:11] So, you know, we, we didn't contact.
[02:10:13] Then I had told them, I said, you know, if we were, I am, or where I'm saying we are.
[02:10:18] So there's a fork in the stream and there's a little footbridge going across one right out there, about 150 meters in front of us.
[02:10:26] There's a road and there's a stream out here.
[02:10:29] I said, you know, I'll take you down here.
[02:10:32] I thought we were doing a make contact.
[02:10:34] And we had to come out on strings.
[02:10:36] So when they were living for their first time coming out on strings?
[02:10:40] No, they'd been out before.
[02:10:42] Okay.
[02:10:43] So they were picking us up and they couldn't see me because they were in front of me.
[02:10:47] But I'm there.
[02:10:49] It's right there.
[02:10:51] You're getting ready to get shot.
[02:10:53] But you're like, hey, I was right.
[02:10:55] That's right.
[02:10:57] Yeah.
[02:10:58] There's a, you know, 10 days at grid coordinates and they were right on.
[02:11:02] So when you were, were you just using pace count?
[02:11:05] Yeah.
[02:11:06] Use the pace count to strain.
[02:11:08] Yeah.
[02:11:09] You know, I spent a lot of time in the woods growing on them.
[02:11:12] So I, and, and particularly in the dark on the other dark.
[02:11:16] I can, I can feel the change in the train.
[02:11:19] I know if I'm going up here, down here, if I'm on a little side, whatever.
[02:11:24] So I would take the section of the map that I thought we were going to operate in.
[02:11:30] I just memorized it.
[02:11:32] Did you guys have one to 50,000 maps?
[02:11:35] Or they went to 24.
[02:11:37] Yeah.
[02:11:38] Well, we had both.
[02:11:39] But what we, depending on the distance that we were going to go.
[02:11:42] But I could just, I mean, usually we didn't go very far.
[02:11:46] Yeah.
[02:11:47] So you can memorize if you're used to doing that.
[02:11:50] The section of the map.
[02:11:51] I could see it in my mind, you know, when we're moving.
[02:11:54] You know, where we were, and you what the pace counts were on you.
[02:11:57] What the terrain should look like.
[02:12:00] You know, where we were.
[02:12:01] I had a checkpoint set up that, that, you know, if we're here, we'll see this.
[02:12:07] If we're here, we'll see this.
[02:12:08] Yeah. So I could track it plus I used to pace count.
[02:12:13] So I knew where I was out there.
[02:12:16] That was one thing that I, I thought was critical because eventually you're going to have to call
[02:12:22] for help and you need to be able to tell them where you are.
[02:12:25] And under triple canopy jungle, you're not shooting asmists to hill tops and things like that.
[02:12:30] I mean, you got to know where you are on the ground because you know the topology.
[02:12:34] I don't know what it feels like, what it looks like and how far you've gone.
[02:12:39] Yeah, that was just the skill set that I had.
[02:12:42] No, no more important piece of information on the battlefield than where you are.
[02:12:46] You don't know where you are.
[02:12:48] It doesn't matter where the enemy is because you can't call for fire.
[02:12:51] You can't maneuver on them because you don't know where you are.
[02:12:54] When you guys were, um, will you guys just get an overwhelmed?
[02:12:58] Is that why you guys had to come out on strings on that one?
[02:13:00] Yeah.
[02:13:01] How big was the enemy force to think that you rolled into and your notes you're using lots.
[02:13:06] It says lots of ed VA.
[02:13:09] I typically use the term lot spinning, you know, a hundred or more.
[02:13:16] So how did you guys stumble across them?
[02:13:19] I'm sorry.
[02:13:21] Where did the contact come from?
[02:13:22] Like what did that contact start like?
[02:13:25] It really started because
[02:13:29] Headquarters decided they needed to resupply us because they wanted us to stay longer.
[02:13:36] And I was saying, no, don't bring a helicopter out here and hover over our position.
[02:13:45] Don't do that.
[02:13:47] Yeah, you got to get resupplyed.
[02:13:50] And they did it anyway.
[02:13:52] So, you know, once you have a chopper hovering above the canopy there,
[02:13:56] drop and stuff down through it, the bad guys, I mean, they're all over the place anyway.
[02:14:01] They must be somebody down there.
[02:14:04] We have nothing else.
[02:14:05] They're going to go get whatever fellow helicopter.
[02:14:07] And they did.
[02:14:08] They came down there and they were, sort of, kind of, you know,
[02:14:13] messed up the afternoon in terms of what we'd planned to do.
[02:14:16] You know, but we got out.
[02:14:19] And it's an extraction on strings through, you know, double canopy,
[02:14:26] the jungle is rough.
[02:14:29] Because you, you've been dragged through the limbs of the trees, the
[02:14:33] pre-tops, the aircraft will always start to go forward.
[02:14:39] And then you're being drug through them.
[02:14:41] And what they want to get to help them get a fire, right?
[02:14:44] Yeah, because they're getting shot at.
[02:14:45] They don't want to stay there long.
[02:14:47] You're getting shot out and it's hard for you to see it because you're
[02:14:51] twisting and turning and hitting leaves.
[02:14:53] And, you know, now they're behind you.
[02:14:55] And it's hard to shoot that way.
[02:14:58] And, you know, they're only going to take,
[02:15:01] maybe four people at a time out anyway.
[02:15:04] So that means you got another chopper coming in.
[02:15:07] The bad guys know you're going out on strings now.
[02:15:11] And you've got another aircraft coming in to pick up the rest of the team.
[02:15:15] I'm the team leader. I'm always.
[02:15:19] First off, first one on the ground, the last one on the ground.
[02:15:23] You know, so I'm coming out with that last aircraft.
[02:15:26] I'm the last one, you know, to come up off the ground.
[02:15:30] And, you know, they've got your pretty well zeroed in by then.
[02:15:34] You know, you know, you're starting to work some gunships and stuff.
[02:15:37] But, you know, the pilots don't like staying there.
[02:15:41] And then, then they get over the, in this case,
[02:15:46] you get over there in an aircraft fire.
[02:15:49] I mean, all of a sudden we're 7,000 feet freezing.
[02:15:52] AGL.
[02:15:53] Yeah.
[02:15:54] Not to the level.
[02:15:55] AGL hanging on the end of a rope covered in sweat.
[02:15:58] And, and freezing to death.
[02:16:00] And I've looking up, you know, and I'm swinging back and forth.
[02:16:04] So my rope is rubbing back and forth on the edge of the floor.
[02:16:08] And I'm thinking, we got a long way to go and it's starting to fray the rope up here.
[02:16:15] And, you know, are we going to get to a place they can set us down before that thing breaks.
[02:16:20] So that runs your rounds a level up a little bit and, you know, place your shiver.
[02:16:26] And then, you know, I asked about 30 minutes.
[02:16:29] Your legs are asleep.
[02:16:30] You can't walk because it's cut this circulation off.
[02:16:33] So even when you get to wherever they're going to set you down,
[02:16:36] you can't stand up.
[02:16:38] They have to come out and get you and pick you up and put you in a helicopter.
[02:16:41] So it's another day at saw, you know?
[02:16:43] Another day at saw.
[02:16:47] You did a snatch mission.
[02:16:49] You mentioned in these notes.
[02:16:51] You did a little, a little, you set up and set up the ambush.
[02:16:57] Try to capture someone.
[02:17:00] It doesn't seem like you mentioned a couple times.
[02:17:02] You weren't very successful at capturing people.
[02:17:05] Yeah, yeah.
[02:17:08] To get up.
[02:17:09] Is this how you got your second nickname?
[02:17:11] Terminator.
[02:17:12] You know, if they don't cooperate, you know, sometimes they get terminated.
[02:17:20] So, you know, when this one, I mean, we had rehearsed, we had practices.
[02:17:28] And one of the techniques of the prisoners snatch is if you have a trail that's.
[02:17:33] People are going to move up and down in small groups.
[02:17:36] You practice setting up an ambush that has a dead spot in it.
[02:17:43] So in the middle of the ambush, usually.
[02:17:47] No one's going to fire into that zone.
[02:17:50] The clay moors are angled out.
[02:17:52] So that it creates a dead space there.
[02:17:56] You put a big block to see for there that you're going to designate.
[02:18:02] It's the same, you know, same time you set off the clay.
[02:18:05] Everything's going to go off at the same time.
[02:18:08] And everybody's firing.
[02:18:10] And you know, the what happens is whoever's lucky enough to be standing in that dead spot.
[02:18:18] Then you hit with a bullet.
[02:18:20] But the concussion from that C4 stuns them.
[02:18:24] Yeah.
[02:18:25] And, you know, we practiced.
[02:18:26] So it's stuns them.
[02:18:27] And then I've got to guy with me that's designated as thumper.
[02:18:32] All right.
[02:18:33] So his he and I going, we're coming out of the bushes.
[02:18:36] Seems that stuff goes off.
[02:18:38] And thumpers job is to see this guy standing there counting days.
[02:18:42] And just taking down.
[02:18:44] You know, thumping him into head.
[02:18:45] And when he hits the ground, I'm going to hit him in the thigh with the morphing.
[02:18:49] So I'm going pumping full of morphing.
[02:18:52] And then he'll do whatever we say.
[02:18:54] You know, he just, you know, he's just calm.
[02:18:58] And.
[02:18:59] But in this case, we ended up killing.
[02:19:04] That guy.
[02:19:05] How how when he at this point you've done how really machines had you guys taking me.
[02:19:10] Cancel these in your teams yet.
[02:19:12] Um, yes.
[02:19:14] But I took.
[02:19:16] Most, I mean, a lot of people got hit.
[02:19:19] But I didn't have anybody kill on one of my teams until I got to our TV.
[02:19:27] Genia.
[02:19:28] And you know, the point man was killed.
[02:19:31] A lot of people were wounded right after I left Virginia.
[02:19:36] On their next mission, they just got hammered.
[02:19:39] Lawson people Americans got shot up really bad.
[02:19:44] Both critical. So they were through with sod.
[02:19:49] Um, but at this point you've been used to your being.
[02:19:53] Continuing to be pretty lucky.
[02:19:56] Yeah, it's in it is.
[02:19:58] I, people asked me all the time about, you know, how do you survive that set?
[02:20:03] So you got to be lucky.
[02:20:05] And you call it lucky.
[02:20:07] You can call it God.
[02:20:08] You can call it whatever you want.
[02:20:10] But there's some kind of intervention that prevents you from getting hit.
[02:20:14] You can't sit in a helicopter like that first one with that many bullets.
[02:20:18] Chris crossing in there and not get hit.
[02:20:20] You know, and I, like, a fraction of a second between me being hit.
[02:20:27] And the, you know, the other American being hit on those kids.
[02:20:30] I mean, I had just pushed back when a guy pulled a trigger.
[02:20:34] Miss me hit the other guy.
[02:20:37] And that happened on a regular basis where, you know,
[02:20:42] I, when I go speak a lot of times, if it has a, this kind of flavor to it,
[02:20:49] if they say something about, you know, being in special forces is a lumping.
[02:20:54] It's not unusual for people to come out to me and say,
[02:20:58] I really thought you'd be taller.
[02:21:01] And I said, if I'd been taller, I'd be dead.
[02:21:05] I'm alive because I'm not taller.
[02:21:08] My head has been creased so many times.
[02:21:11] Well, I just wouldn't be here.
[02:21:14] Yeah.
[02:21:15] So then did you, did barswell took over for, for RT Michigan?
[02:21:21] Yeah, eventually we got to the point where, I mean, barswell was ready.
[02:21:25] He could have taken over before me.
[02:21:27] But, so we got to the point where I had to leave to go do something different.
[02:21:34] And I told him, he's ready.
[02:21:37] He can do this.
[02:21:38] He's a spec for.
[02:21:40] Yeah.
[02:21:40] With all those assets, all that response moved in.
[02:21:43] And somewhere near, you got E5, I think.
[02:21:45] Yeah.
[02:21:46] But if you, if you were to go back and look at,
[02:21:52] solid ones, zeros across the board, you would be shot at the age.
[02:21:59] There's so young.
[02:22:02] But, and as I've looked at, one would people do that.
[02:22:12] And it used to be that neurologist thought that you're,
[02:22:20] pre-chronicortex over here, where you make decisions, but it's also the part
[02:22:27] that controls risk taking. They used to say, yeah, it fully
[02:22:32] matures somewhere around 18 to 20 years old.
[02:22:37] And now we know most people don't mature until about 28 to 30 years old.
[02:22:44] So what's happening?
[02:22:45] It's primarily men that don't men reach that level of maturity a little later.
[02:22:50] A little bit, the women are a little behind, but in terms of the
[02:22:54] sag leaders, most of them had not, definitely had not matured.
[02:23:00] And I don't mean that the person was immature.
[02:23:03] And I mean, they're talking that part of the brain that controls risk taking.
[02:23:08] So you're young.
[02:23:10] You think you're bullet proof.
[02:23:12] You think you can do anything.
[02:23:14] You think you're going to live forever.
[02:23:15] Man, this is a cool thing to do.
[02:23:17] There's a sag mention.
[02:23:19] So I think there's something there.
[02:23:21] I'll just have a time to explore it.
[02:23:23] Something there might be that the guys that are 30 years old are like, I'm not doing it.
[02:23:27] Like the guy that told you don't volunteer for sock.
[02:23:29] Yeah.
[02:23:30] Because they're saying, yeah, this survivability's not high.
[02:23:33] I've got a good, I don't know. I'm not going to do it.
[02:23:35] Yeah.
[02:23:36] But the young kids are right there.
[02:23:38] All in.
[02:23:39] Yeah.
[02:23:40] How old was bargewell?
[02:23:42] How old were you at this point?
[02:23:43] Bargewell.
[02:23:44] Bargewell.
[02:23:45] I was about four or five months older than bargewell.
[02:23:49] And how old were you?
[02:23:51] I was about six or six years old.
[02:23:53] When bargewell came along, I was about six and six.
[02:23:55] I was about six and six.
[02:23:56] You're 22.
[02:23:58] 20.
[02:23:58] 20.
[02:23:59] Yeah.
[02:24:00] I just became 22, which I didn't think I would make.
[02:24:04] And I thought for sure, I won't see 20.
[02:24:07] 23.
[02:24:09] Because I mean, weeps.
[02:24:11] Obviously skipped over a lot of stuff here.
[02:24:14] We're used a lot of cat lives up.
[02:24:17] So.
[02:24:18] Yeah.
[02:24:21] I mean, we were just a few months apart and turned away.
[02:24:24] Well, every single one of these operations just about you're going to use a certain number of cat lives.
[02:24:32] Did you ever go on an operation where you didn't get contact by the enemy?
[02:24:37] No.
[02:24:38] If you count the gas.
[02:24:40] Mm-hmm.
[02:24:41] Then no.
[02:24:42] We made contact.
[02:24:43] Mm-hmm.
[02:24:48] 100%.
[02:24:49] You're going to get an contact with the enemy.
[02:24:51] All right.
[02:24:53] Well, it was the operation.
[02:24:54] Shileau all about.
[02:24:56] And is this why you left RT Michigan?
[02:24:57] Yeah.
[02:24:58] Okay.
[02:24:59] So you get called away from RT Michigan.
[02:25:00] They need somebody to do operation.
[02:25:01] So what was that all about?
[02:25:02] They make me sag.
[02:25:04] And somebody higher up.
[02:25:07] And decided that they needed to stop the influx of supplies.
[02:25:12] And that troops coming down from the north.
[02:25:17] And it was a place called the Mugia Pass.
[02:25:23] Big, deep valley.
[02:25:25] But there was a point where it really narrowed up the bank.
[02:25:28] It was really steep and high.
[02:25:31] And you know, so they had to funnel through that pass with their trucks and people and whatever
[02:25:37] to come on down into the south.
[02:25:40] And you know, you send a forward air controller out there.
[02:25:45] I mean, they see it.
[02:25:46] So they pull off in the hide because they know that forward air controller has a bunch of
[02:25:52] L-flowers over here in orbit.
[02:25:53] Just waiting on him to find a target and they're going to come in.
[02:25:57] So somebody came up with the idea of what if we put a team out there up on the ridge,
[02:26:04] upon the crest of that valley looking down.
[02:26:08] And they'll be able to see for enough that when they're coming, they can call and say,
[02:26:14] OK, they're on their way.
[02:26:15] Scram, you know, get the L-flow out here.
[02:26:18] And they all four can be on.
[02:26:19] I'm like a chicken on a jean bird and just eat them up, you know.
[02:26:24] So they decided to do this mission.
[02:26:29] Little sneak people sneak a team out there.
[02:26:31] Put them on the ridge.
[02:26:32] Let them set up there and just interdick this place like crazy.
[02:26:37] But it has to be a super team.
[02:26:40] It has to be off as they're led.
[02:26:43] It has to, all Americans have to be approved by by name, by the president to do this,
[02:26:50] because they're where it is and what they're going to do.
[02:26:53] So they needed somebody a 1-0 officer who could take over a team that we had there and, you know,
[02:27:03] they were leading it and they put me on it.
[02:27:07] I wasn't happy about leaving Michigan, but I thought, well, this sounds cool until I learn more about what they were going to do.
[02:27:15] And I went on a visual recon.
[02:27:18] I went out and rode with a forward air controller,
[02:27:20] if I was putting in air strikes with their force and I'm looking at this place and I'm thinking,
[02:27:27] they just got to be somebody up there.
[02:27:32] They're not high ground.
[02:27:33] They're not leaving this place and defended.
[02:27:36] And when I brought that up, they said, no, there's nobody there.
[02:27:40] We never received any fire from that area.
[02:27:44] And I said, if you don't want people to know you're there, you don't shoot out them.
[02:27:51] So there's somebody, I'm sure there's somebody there.
[02:27:54] And anyway, so I had some disagreements with the people doing in Saigon about that.
[02:28:00] And I had to go back and forth on a lot of briefings about the mission.
[02:28:04] But we took the other team.
[02:28:06] All right, took the team and we trained and we'd go to Mucky Mountain.
[02:28:09] And we'd practice all this stuff and our surveillance techniques.
[02:28:13] And we had the starlight scopes.
[02:28:14] We had long rains, lenses on our cameras.
[02:28:17] And all the state of the art binoculars.
[02:28:20] We had a plan that said, I thought it was funny that we're going to drop parachutes out.
[02:28:27] And an area over a wave from there.
[02:28:31] We'd box up ice in them.
[02:28:34] So the parachutes will open.
[02:28:37] Just seeing, hanging the trees, ice them out.
[02:28:40] So when the NVA go over there, they'll think we parachuted some people in and they moved out.
[02:28:47] Because they won't see anybody.
[02:28:50] They're not stupid.
[02:28:52] Anyway, so for four weeks we get ready to go do this thing.
[02:28:58] And then finally somebody listened and said, no, call it off.
[02:29:04] We're not going to do it.
[02:29:06] And till talk to you and one of your podcasts about where he had the special mission.
[02:29:12] They had to have an officer with him later on.
[02:29:16] After I left, it came back up again. They decided to do it and they put an officer with his team.
[02:29:22] And said, you guys are going to do it.
[02:29:24] And they were out on the Hello Pad with the roaders turning.
[02:29:27] And when the mission got called off because they discovered there were a bunch of people there.
[02:29:32] And if they had put either one of those teams in, when we lost the house.
[02:29:38] How about Dick Meadows?
[02:29:42] Now, now legend. Now this is an easy legend at this time.
[02:29:47] Oh, yeah.
[02:29:48] Everybody already knew Dick Meadows.
[02:29:52] Meadows had been, he got to the point where he done all his super secret stuff.
[02:30:00] And they said, okay, we're going to give you a choice.
[02:30:04] You can, we can promote you to Sergeant Major.
[02:30:07] Or we can promote you to Captain.
[02:30:10] Which one do you want?
[02:30:13] And he worked out a deal that said, if you promote me to Captain,
[02:30:18] then I get to stay, you can't force me out.
[02:30:22] I get to stay in until I can retire.
[02:30:25] You know, as an officer, whatever, right, I get to.
[02:30:29] So anyway, so he's, she's, she's.
[02:30:31] This is, I don't know if this is the army or if it's just Vietnam.
[02:30:37] I think it's a little bit of both.
[02:30:39] That kind of thing just doesn't happen anymore.
[02:30:42] Where they take a guy that go, hey, we're going to either promote you to the Senior
[02:30:47] and Listed Side or make you a captain, which one do you want?
[02:30:50] Yeah.
[02:30:51] That's epic.
[02:30:52] Yeah.
[02:30:52] And Meadows, it wasn't epic guy.
[02:30:54] Yeah.
[02:30:55] I mean, so, you know, I came back from a mission.
[02:31:00] And I was told that we got a new company commander.
[02:31:05] And he wants to see you as soon as you get cleaned up.
[02:31:09] So I got in to see him that night.
[02:31:12] It was probably 2200.
[02:31:14] And actually he was, the quarters were, it was a,
[02:31:18] a quansit hut with the wall.
[02:31:20] I was on one side of it.
[02:31:21] He was on the other side.
[02:31:23] So I go over and report to him.
[02:31:25] And, you know, he told me, good job.
[02:31:27] And all this stuff.
[02:31:28] I've been looking at you record.
[02:31:29] And he said, effective right now.
[02:31:31] You're the recon company, ex-o.
[02:31:34] And he said, but I don't want to go off team.
[02:31:37] And he said, you can keep a team.
[02:31:38] I don't care about that.
[02:31:40] But you're the ex-o.
[02:31:41] And you're going to help me.
[02:31:43] And he said, to start with tomorrow morning,
[02:31:47] we're going to have a meeting with all the Americans in
[02:31:52] Recon company one at a time.
[02:31:56] Because I've been going through the records.
[02:31:59] And I think the sum of them's Borei has gotten a little too heavy.
[02:32:03] And we're going to send them back to the train tomorrow.
[02:32:05] They don't need to be in stock.
[02:32:07] They can go play with special forces.
[02:32:09] But they're not going to be in stock.
[02:32:11] What do you mean?
[02:32:13] He said, there are people here who are not going out on missions.
[02:32:18] Very often.
[02:32:20] And going out on missions.
[02:32:22] And every time they get shot off the LZ, they never actually
[02:32:26] complete a mission.
[02:32:27] And they're going to be in stock.
[02:32:29] They need to go somewhere else.
[02:32:33] And we need to replace them.
[02:32:35] And then, if that is as hard to do, I'm hard.
[02:32:39] And you can tell when he's talking to you.
[02:32:41] He is the serious, the hard attack.
[02:32:45] So he said, here.
[02:32:47] Take this stack of files with you.
[02:32:49] Go through them tonight.
[02:32:51] Tomorrow morning at 0700, they're going to start with you.
[02:32:55] And the other weekend, the other weekend, the other weekend,
[02:32:59] the other weekend, the other weekend, the other weekend.
[02:33:01] So we're going to start coming in the other weekend or early room.
[02:33:03] And I'm going to have a talk with her.
[02:33:05] So you tell me which ones you think you need to go home.
[02:33:09] So we met in the next morning.
[02:33:11] And I'm looking at the list that the stack is.
[02:33:15] You've got the idea to be a place that's in the back.
[02:33:17] I said, we're not going to have anybody left.
[02:33:21] And he said, I don't care.
[02:33:23] If we have to, you and I will lead all the missions.
[02:33:27] And my heart's not beating at this point.
[02:33:31] Because I'm hearing how serious he is in his bars.
[02:33:35] We'll do it all.
[02:33:37] Yes, sir.
[02:33:39] We're going to become busy.
[02:33:43] But anyway, he went and sent him home.
[02:33:47] But he sent a lot of people back to the train that day.
[02:33:51] He said, it's dull.
[02:33:53] You helicopter's leaving this afternoon.
[02:33:55] Beyond it.
[02:33:57] And he started to shut the people back down there.
[02:33:59] You know, if you had been dragging your feet, finding ways not to go on missions,
[02:34:05] you were sick, you were whatever.
[02:34:07] And you get shot off the LZ.
[02:34:09] I mean, he looked at, you know, over the period of time,
[02:34:13] you had been there.
[02:34:15] How many missions had you been on?
[02:34:17] How many times have you been in contact?
[02:34:19] You've been on the ground.
[02:34:21] And all this kind of stuff.
[02:34:23] And, you know, he had his own little equation.
[02:34:25] And, you know, these people needed to find something else to do.
[02:34:29] And he was hard.
[02:34:33] Big-time ranger, special ops, mindset.
[02:34:37] And he started to look around right away.
[02:34:39] And I just got a thing here.
[02:34:41] We got to clean up.
[02:34:43] We should have a nice isolation area.
[02:34:45] When a team gets a mission, you go into isolation.
[02:34:47] So he's done special forces.
[02:34:49] That's the doctrine.
[02:34:50] And we're not doing it.
[02:34:51] Why would we not do that here?
[02:34:53] A lot of things like that.
[02:34:55] Training.
[02:34:57] So I, you know, he told me, let's, the next morning, he said,
[02:35:01] you meet me down on the beach.
[02:35:03] And then tomorrow morning,
[02:35:05] the beach was just right outside the casino.
[02:35:07] Time made him down there and he said,
[02:35:09] we're going to go for a little run.
[02:35:11] And, you know, he, you can tell the older than me.
[02:35:15] He's at that point.
[02:35:17] So we take off down the beach about a seven minute pace.
[02:35:21] And I'm thinking, oh my god, I haven't been running.
[02:35:25] I mean, I'm starting to, you know, suck a little win in here.
[02:35:29] And this dopers not slowing down.
[02:35:31] So when we get about the two mile point, you know, I, I told him,
[02:35:35] I said, sir, I'm going to, I'm going to go ahead and turn around here
[02:35:39] and go back and take care of some things.
[02:35:41] You do that lieutenant.
[02:35:43] I'm going to keep running.
[02:35:45] And he kept going and I look back at once a while,
[02:35:47] so he disappeared out of sight down the beach.
[02:35:49] And he's by himself and he's unarmed.
[02:35:51] And, you know, late on, he came back.
[02:35:55] I mean, physical fitness was a, a big thing for him.
[02:36:01] You keep your body sharp, you'll keep your mind sharp.
[02:36:05] And, you know, we started to have in PT in the mornings
[02:36:09] for the teams that were not out enough Hill.
[02:36:11] Things like that.
[02:36:13] So you made a lot of changes.
[02:36:15] How did that affect the attitude around the camp?
[02:36:19] I have to, I have to kill his house cleaning at the, at the beginning.
[02:36:23] Every flight to Elsa is Yasser or whatever you want.
[02:36:25] I mean, we need to do this stuff and we need to do it right.
[02:36:29] And, you know, he was out there.
[02:36:31] I mean, and everybody knew, I mean, he's a guy that would say,
[02:36:35] you've been out twice to get a prisoner.
[02:36:39] I'm going with you this time and show you how to get one.
[02:36:43] And he's going to get one and bring it back.
[02:36:47] I mean, whatever the mission was, he could do it.
[02:36:51] And then say, now I want the rest of you to do it that way.
[02:36:55] And, oh, I can't Roger that.
[02:36:59] Whatever you say, so he said, you can keep a team,
[02:37:03] but here's the time we're going to start.
[02:37:05] We've got a group coming over.
[02:37:07] The first group in Oca Noa were sending people over,
[02:37:10] temporary duty.
[02:37:11] It had sent four teams of Americans over.
[02:37:15] And he said, I want you to train them.
[02:37:18] So when they get here, you get with them and their teams and you put them through some training on how to run these operations and what to do.
[02:37:25] And then I want you to go out with them with each team.
[02:37:29] You take them out.
[02:37:30] You walk right alongside, you know, the one zero.
[02:37:34] I guess we call that skin in the game.
[02:37:36] You're going to trade them and they're going to go with them.
[02:37:39] And, you know, when you get a team, you think is ready to go.
[02:37:44] You tell me, we'll sign a mission to them and you take the next team out.
[02:37:47] Are these the snake bite teams?
[02:37:49] Yeah, these are all the same.
[02:37:50] Yeah, it's not like.
[02:37:51] So, you know, I was going out on regular races with these guys.
[02:37:55] You know, particularly once I got them trained.
[02:37:57] And, you know, we were going into the marine forest recons area of operations.
[02:38:05] You know, they would put their teams out there within two or three days.
[02:38:11] You know, they'd get run out.
[02:38:14] We were going out and the objective was to stay seven days.
[02:38:19] And she's, I mean, we, you know, we eventually might contact.
[02:38:24] Sometimes we might contact before that.
[02:38:26] But it was a live fire, you know, shoot back target kind of certification.
[02:38:33] So, can you lead a team out against real bad guys and get shot at and do it right.
[02:38:40] And then I give them the check mark.
[02:38:43] Then they get a sawed mission.
[02:38:44] So, those are the elephant alley operations.
[02:38:46] Yeah.
[02:38:47] Is that what those are.
[02:38:48] So, you had an AO that was a little bit calmer.
[02:38:50] It was a little bit closer.
[02:38:51] We still had some real bad guys.
[02:38:53] This is just like the ultimate in training operations.
[02:38:56] Yes.
[02:38:56] Because it's actually real.
[02:38:57] Yeah.
[02:38:58] Because the target shoot back.
[02:38:59] And we had several elements wanted.
[02:39:01] You know, from the home of the missions.
[02:39:04] But, you know, they always did a great job.
[02:39:07] I mean, when they were there, they did a great job.
[02:39:10] So, he kept me busy with that.
[02:39:13] But, so I was technically still going out with teams.
[02:39:18] I wasn't happy about it.
[02:39:20] I mean, real sawed missions.
[02:39:22] I don't want to, you know,
[02:39:24] It does even count as your sawed missions.
[02:39:27] No.
[02:39:28] Those were just day to day stuff.
[02:39:31] You know, you know, trying to get a kill while you're doing it.
[02:39:34] Yeah.
[02:39:35] You just go do that.
[02:39:36] And, you know, ironically enough,
[02:39:39] that was very similar to what it was like,
[02:39:45] you know, when I came home and went to the Ranger Department and became a Ranger instructor.
[02:39:50] That's what I did.
[02:39:51] And I was walking along, you know, with a team of Ranger students,
[02:39:55] upgrading and evaluating the patrol leaders.
[02:39:59] So, he said, the target since he back.
[02:40:02] Mm-hmm.
[02:40:03] But that's a little bit of a difference.
[02:40:05] Yeah.
[02:40:06] And then when did you take over RT Virginia?
[02:40:09] Was that your next one zero?
[02:40:12] Yeah.
[02:40:14] And we finished with the snake bites.
[02:40:17] And he said, okay, I got one more mission for you before you get your real team back again.
[02:40:24] And he said, we've got a team that we want to convert over to Vietnamese lead team.
[02:40:33] So, it's going to be a team that's going to operate with no Americans on it.
[02:40:38] We've got Vietnamese Army captain that's coming in here.
[02:40:45] So he'll be the team leader and we've got RT Virginia.
[02:40:49] And he hasn't nobody right now.
[02:40:54] So I want you to train them with him.
[02:40:57] And then you can take them out on a mission and make sure he does okay.
[02:41:02] And if he does okay, then, you know, he will take over the team and he'll start getting, you know,
[02:41:10] Sog missions.
[02:41:12] So, as soon as I got with the team, they were saying, no, no.
[02:41:18] And we don't want Vietnamese captain.
[02:41:22] And I don't know, whatever it's just something about them.
[02:41:25] We blinded very quickly.
[02:41:27] And then they started saying, we want you.
[02:41:30] I said, it can't be me.
[02:41:31] It's got to be this guy.
[02:41:32] So we're going to go train and they were good.
[02:41:36] And I liked them.
[02:41:37] We got along well.
[02:41:39] But they did not like the captain.
[02:41:42] So in the end, in the middle said, okay, you take the team.
[02:41:47] You've been all this time with them.
[02:41:50] You take them and go with them.
[02:41:53] And then what were those missions?
[02:41:55] Then you started doing it.
[02:41:56] Sog missions.
[02:41:57] Sog missions.
[02:41:58] Yeah.
[02:41:59] Because they were good.
[02:42:00] And how many times did you go out with R.T. Virginia?
[02:42:03] A bunch.
[02:42:04] I don't know.
[02:42:05] I'd have to go ahead and count them now.
[02:42:07] But, yeah.
[02:42:08] I mean, that was the last team, you know, that was the ones zero.
[02:42:12] And so these missions are the same, you know, you're going deep into me territory.
[02:42:16] Across the fence, as tilt says, inserting and trying to do recon, trying to find intelligence,
[02:42:25] trying to plant sensors and trying to avoid hundreds, if not thousands of NBA.
[02:42:31] And sometimes you went out looking for a large unit.
[02:42:36] That was the mission.
[02:42:37] You go find them and once you find them, then you've got them located.
[02:42:41] You bring the world.
[02:42:42] I mean, you introduce them to, you know, what we call later, chalk and all.
[02:42:47] I mean, you bring all this down from because they can't get away once you know where they are.
[02:42:52] So those are some of those were just straight up patrol to contact.
[02:42:55] You're going to go in there and you're going to patrol until you find somebody.
[02:42:58] And then you're going to call the fighter.
[02:42:59] You go do that.
[02:43:01] And I think we, I had an in-country mission with Virginia, but I think the first out-of-country was what we sometimes call the
[02:43:10] suicide mission.
[02:43:13] We put in two teams.
[02:43:15] Once we got on the ground, we'd separate.
[02:43:18] For you to be calling the suicide mission is a real statement about things.
[02:43:22] So we would separate.
[02:43:24] This should be called the guaranteed death mission.
[02:43:27] But okay, we'll go with it.
[02:43:28] It's the suicide mission.
[02:43:29] And one team would be the, the real team that was going to stay out there.
[02:43:34] The suicide team would be the one that was going to go.
[02:43:39] So they would be the first to make contact as soon as possible.
[02:43:41] Go find them.
[02:43:42] Pound saw them.
[02:43:43] You know, they do as much damage as you could.
[02:43:45] Bring in the world, get extracted and go away.
[02:43:48] But the other team's still out there.
[02:43:51] And nobody knows that they're out there now.
[02:43:54] They think.
[02:43:55] You know, that was who got extracted.
[02:43:58] So, you know, it was go get, so we went out and you know,
[02:44:03] sure enough, it didn't take us long to find, you know,
[02:44:07] of a container or so of people.
[02:44:11] And so we're online and we open fire on them.
[02:44:14] I mean, normally just start out like that,
[02:44:17] put that to see them and I started shooting at them.
[02:44:21] They started shooting back.
[02:44:22] And it was funny that what happened, we were online.
[02:44:25] And as soon as all the bullets started coming back,
[02:44:29] it was soon.
[02:44:31] They were all right here with me.
[02:44:32] And I'm saying, what are you doing?
[02:44:34] And I said, spread out.
[02:44:36] You can't be here with me.
[02:44:38] I mean, one before you take us all out.
[02:44:40] And I had to smoke them a little bit and spread back out.
[02:44:47] Disperse them is what we call that.
[02:44:49] And we don't also say don't bunch up.
[02:44:52] And I would think about the psychology of what
[02:44:53] makes people bunch up like that.
[02:44:56] And part of it, I think, is just fear.
[02:44:57] And like you want to be next to someone else.
[02:44:59] You want to have your buddy.
[02:45:00] And so as soon as bullets start flying,
[02:45:02] it's like I'm going to get next to you because we'll be together.
[02:45:05] And I feel better when we're together.
[02:45:06] And the other thing, I think, is just communication.
[02:45:08] People want to hear what's happening.
[02:45:09] People want to know what's happening.
[02:45:10] And so they figure, well, the bosses right there,
[02:45:12] I'll go get what the boss that I'll know what's happening.
[02:45:15] And then that's where everyone else in the team thinks.
[02:45:17] And next to you, you're too close.
[02:45:19] Yeah.
[02:45:20] You can't do that.
[02:45:21] They knew I had to radio.
[02:45:23] So were you the suicide team?
[02:45:24] Were you the assault team?
[02:45:25] And then someone else was going to stay out there.
[02:45:26] They were going to go to the side team.
[02:45:29] So we hammered that group, which grew, once we started hitting them.
[02:45:34] And then we just got bringing in enough air power to eventually
[02:45:38] we suppressed it enough that we could get extracted.
[02:45:42] So that was.
[02:45:43] But we had been in contact once before the end-country mission.
[02:45:51] But yeah.
[02:45:53] I mean, that was a little issue.
[02:45:55] But we got that resolved.
[02:45:56] You know, maintained in this version.
[02:45:58] And following whatever the media action drill was.
[02:46:01] But they were good team.
[02:46:04] I mean, they reacted normally very well under fire.
[02:46:10] And were those, were those, those were Vietnamese?
[02:46:13] Yeah.
[02:46:14] So with that, you wrap up with RT Virginia.
[02:46:20] And you get some RNR.
[02:46:23] And you actually have a document that you gave me about this RNR.
[02:46:27] And RNR, if you don't know, is rest in recuperation.
[02:46:30] And we're actually going to cover that on the next podcast.
[02:46:35] So thanks for coming on.
[02:46:38] And we'll fill these people in on this insane operation that is titled Rest in
[02:46:48] Recuperation.
[02:46:50] So thanks for coming out.
[02:46:51] Thank you for having me.
[02:46:52] And we'll talk right into the next one.
[02:46:54] Thank you.
[02:46:55] And with that, Mr. Dick Thompson has left the building.
[02:47:02] And once again, it is an honor to be able to sit down with such incredible men.
[02:47:12] And do have the opportunity to hear and to preserve their stories and their lessons.
[02:47:22] And it's actually crazy for me to be sitting here and to have this opportunity.
[02:47:29] And to be able to share it with anybody that wants to hear it.
[02:47:34] They do that wants to learn.
[02:47:37] So I am very thankful for this opportunity.
[02:47:44] And one of the things that allows us to do what we're doing here is you.
[02:47:55] Because by listening, you can take these lessons and apply them to your life and make
[02:48:02] yourself better.
[02:48:05] And if you want to help us while you make yourself better, it seems like it would be a good
[02:48:11] thing to me.
[02:48:12] We could help us help you.
[02:48:18] Do you know what movie that's from?
[02:48:19] Yes, I do.
[02:48:20] What?
[02:48:22] See, you feel like you know.
[02:48:24] No, I guess from.
[02:48:25] I do.
[02:48:26] I just recalled it.
[02:48:27] Jerry Maguire.
[02:48:29] Interesting.
[02:48:30] Doesn't seem like the type movie that you'd watch.
[02:48:35] Yeah, I guess it doesn't really seem like, but maybe it was just a movie that was so popular
[02:48:39] that at some point.
[02:48:40] I watched it.
[02:48:42] Got it on the grid, gotcha.
[02:48:44] Cool.
[02:48:45] Well, help me help you.
[02:48:48] Help you.
[02:48:49] That's how you said it.
[02:48:50] Little bit more dramatic.
[02:48:51] Nonetheless, yes, help yourself.
[02:48:53] That's kind of the real deal, right?
[02:48:55] So what are we doing to help ourselves?
[02:48:57] Do you get to?
[02:48:58] Anti stress activity.
[02:49:01] That's a point.
[02:49:02] Good point.
[02:49:04] Not necessarily changing in the locker, but I was talking to one of my many friends in
[02:49:08] the locker room.
[02:49:09] And when you think about it, Jitu's like the most efficient, a lot of not efficient
[02:49:14] is word, but it's like it's exercise competition, friendly and how should I say, what
[02:49:20] you call, aggressive, aggressive, but like what's like beneficial competition, you know,
[02:49:26] how there's like unhealthy health.
[02:49:27] We'll just say, help you competition exercise, how the competition, so there's social
[02:49:34] element to it.
[02:49:39] These are all things that you get out of it.
[02:49:40] Therapy, physical, and mental, by the way.
[02:49:43] And stress relief.
[02:49:46] Which we didn't really hit it on this initial podcast, but
[02:49:50] a doctor, Henry Thompson, also known as Dick Thompson, who we just spent time with.
[02:49:56] His book is called the stress effect and it talks about stress.
[02:49:59] And I concur that Jitu is a stress reliever, you know, big time.
[02:50:05] Yeah, it's kind of like, like you get small levels of stress in Jitu to the point
[02:50:13] where it doesn't feel like stress, but technically it's stress.
[02:50:17] Just like exercise, you know, like the stress, I think that's sort of how it works,
[02:50:25] mentally, physically.
[02:50:26] And a little bit of stress on there, and then boom, there is all of that stress is no stress.
[02:50:31] Yeah.
[02:50:32] Way goes.
[02:50:33] Anyway, when we're doing Jitu, what do we need?
[02:50:35] Geese and rash guards, that's the uniform for lack of a better term.
[02:50:38] What kind of geese we getting?
[02:50:40] 100% or 100%.
[02:50:41] 100%.
[02:50:42] 100%.
[02:50:43] Yeah, making the best geese in the world.
[02:50:47] Yeah, factually made in America.
[02:50:49] In America.
[02:50:50] From American, from American ingredients.
[02:50:54] The masterpiece that is Becky.
[02:50:58] Yeah.
[02:50:59] Yeah.
[02:51:00] Everything else too.
[02:51:01] Also, you know, shirts and jackets and joggers.
[02:51:04] Jeans.
[02:51:05] I saw you in jeans for the first time.
[02:51:07] I think ever.
[02:51:08] When?
[02:51:09] I don't know.
[02:51:10] It was like, we were going somewhere.
[02:51:11] Oh yeah, Washington.
[02:51:13] We were both representing.
[02:51:15] Representing.
[02:51:16] Big time.
[02:51:17] Yeah, I look good.
[02:51:18] I'm not going to.
[02:51:20] Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[02:51:21] I'm not going to ask you your opinion on that matter.
[02:51:23] Well, nonetheless, yes, I was representing big time with my American geese.
[02:51:29] American denim.
[02:51:30] Yeah, from dirt to the shirt.
[02:51:32] As they say.
[02:51:33] On the last jeans, joggers.
[02:51:35] Supplements.
[02:51:36] Don't worry, fair.
[02:51:37] I'm back on discipline.
[02:51:38] That's like two weeks, area day.
[02:51:40] Like.
[02:51:41] No, don't you.
[02:51:42] You know, you sometimes you slip off for whatever reason you run out.
[02:51:45] Whatever.
[02:51:46] Yeah.
[02:51:47] Subscription.
[02:51:48] Yeah, I'm not.
[02:51:49] You can get a subscription.
[02:51:50] Yeah.
[02:51:51] You can get a subscription.
[02:51:52] That way you don't run out.
[02:51:53] You can go on to originmain.com and you can subscribe.
[02:51:58] So that every whatever monthly you get your.
[02:52:03] You get your resupply.
[02:52:04] Yeah.
[02:52:05] And that way you don't fall off the train.
[02:52:07] Yeah.
[02:52:08] And you save money to cheaper.
[02:52:10] Oh, yeah.
[02:52:11] So this.
[02:52:12] Yeah, and that's like, um, there's certain things in life that are like that.
[02:52:16] Where you like you eat.
[02:52:18] You eat them or use them or whatever like every day.
[02:52:21] And to go on, especially if they save money to go on those little subscription, it's just,
[02:52:26] it's a, that'll improve your efficiency in your life.
[02:52:30] One less than you have to think about.
[02:52:32] Oh, yeah.
[02:52:33] And it just comes and you don't have to get that disparaging.
[02:52:36] No, it's just not disparaging.
[02:52:37] It's just to spare.
[02:52:38] Yeah, that disparaging moment.
[02:52:39] Yeah.
[02:52:40] It's going to be three days.
[02:52:42] Yeah.
[02:52:43] Even if I fat exit, they got to get the order.
[02:52:45] Yeah.
[02:52:46] Subscribe.
[02:52:47] Exactly.
[02:52:48] Right.
[02:52:49] So what supplements do it more fair?
[02:52:50] Crill oil.
[02:52:51] These are for your joints and general health.
[02:52:53] Really.
[02:52:54] Curcum in this general health.
[02:52:55] Right there.
[02:52:56] Yeah.
[02:52:57] Also discipline and discipline go finally.
[02:52:59] I got the.
[02:53:00] Jack.
[02:53:01] Doc.
[02:53:02] Doc.
[02:53:03] Doc Savage.
[02:53:04] That's the coach of Myers.
[02:53:06] Signature.
[02:53:08] Signature.
[02:53:09] Signature drink.
[02:53:12] Uh, I like it.
[02:53:13] It's, I haven't done a side by side comparison.
[02:53:15] You know, as far as like which one I prefer, but it, I won't be surprised if that is my favorite one.
[02:53:21] Oh, your new favorite.
[02:53:22] Yes.
[02:53:23] Because your old favorite was.
[02:53:24] Tropical.
[02:53:25] Tropical.
[02:53:26] The lemon lime was kind of too basic to be my favorite.
[02:53:30] It's still fine.
[02:53:31] It's still great.
[02:53:32] That's weird because that basic one that you're over there disparaging.
[02:53:35] No, no, no, no, no.
[02:53:36] Lemon lime is my favorite at this time.
[02:53:38] Well, you're just a simple person.
[02:53:40] You know, I get it in a good way.
[02:53:42] My wife kind of curiously asked me.
[02:53:44] She was like, how many of these can I drink a day?
[02:53:47] Because it turns out my wife is really into the discipline call.
[02:53:53] Yeah.
[02:53:54] So it's a drink.
[02:53:55] Yeah.
[02:53:56] So anyways, I'm thinking four cans is around the limit per day.
[02:53:59] Yeah.
[02:54:00] I've done three and a great.
[02:54:02] Yeah.
[02:54:03] No, you know, hall it because like if you drink even like a coffee scenario where you,
[02:54:07] you get to a point where you drink too many coffees and you're like,
[02:54:09] I don't feel good anymore.
[02:54:11] You feel weird or off or what it fidgety.
[02:54:13] You know, all of these little symptoms.
[02:54:15] You know, I've never actually taken a complete sip of coffee in my whole life.
[02:54:19] No, kidding.
[02:54:20] Yeah.
[02:54:21] I don't like the smell of it.
[02:54:23] Which means I don't like I don't even have people go whatever you ever tasted it.
[02:54:26] I'm like, well, I suppose at some point I'm guessing I put a little sip into my mouth.
[02:54:31] But even the smell alone, I smell them.
[02:54:33] I was like, I don't like this.
[02:54:34] Yeah, what about coffee like flavors don't like it.
[02:54:37] Don't like it.
[02:54:38] Don't like coffee ice cream.
[02:54:39] But I don't eat it though.
[02:54:40] Yes.
[02:54:41] And then, you know, sometimes there'll be some kind of special treat.
[02:54:44] So like some kind of a, I wait, does tiramisu, you know what tiramisu is?
[02:54:49] Doesn't that have some coffee flavor in it?
[02:54:51] I don't know.
[02:54:52] Okay.
[02:54:53] Well, it seems to be.
[02:54:54] But in all of it.
[02:54:55] No, no, no, that's the only one.
[02:54:57] tiramisu.
[02:54:58] Yeah.
[02:54:59] That's one dessert that's, it sort of like takes some skill to make.
[02:55:03] And if it's on the menu at a really nice restaurant, sometimes I'll have a little
[02:55:08] bit of an instant area.
[02:55:12] I get my tiramisu like partially.
[02:55:15] And this is sort of rationalization partially.
[02:55:18] Because, well, what I tell myself was like, well, you know, I kind of need to see what it tastes like.
[02:55:21] Because there's, there's some tiramisu.
[02:55:23] One of the best things I've ever tasted in my life was tiramisu.
[02:55:26] There was a candidate at this little Jeremy Stevens just got done cutting weight.
[02:55:30] We went to, yeah, we weighed in and we went to this Italian place.
[02:55:34] Homemade, Italian place.
[02:55:36] food it was just I was sick how much food we ate and then he goes I'm making
[02:55:42] you my termister and I said down on him I guess I'm making it for you you know
[02:55:45] I'm just gonna do it you just be quiet so it took like 40 minutes you like
[02:55:50] made it he brings out you know you know once you've eaten a lot you still
[02:55:56] think you can eat more but then after like 15 minutes you're like no I can't
[02:55:59] yeah so we was like 40 minutes so now I'm just thinking myself I cannot
[02:56:04] eat anymore yeah he brings out this termister and he's like hmm and yeah I
[02:56:07] forget what kind of accent he had but he had an accent it was either French or
[02:56:10] Italian I think it was French but you know he just put it in front of me and I
[02:56:14] I took a bite and it was the it was definitely one of the best things I've ever
[02:56:20] had dang that's saying a lot because it's one thing if like you're hungry in the
[02:56:24] first of me had it all you know kind of has an impression and imprinted in your brain
[02:56:27] but you're like basically the worst conditions to have that experience be so
[02:56:32] good oh yeah thank because everything else was good too so anyways maybe and it
[02:56:37] made me need to make a tear-missue mole if that's if that's even a thing but
[02:56:41] wait what is it is there a tear-missue like a flavor I don't know if I got to
[02:56:45] do research I know I got to do research see no what that means got to eat
[02:56:50] some art there I was there yeah so speaking of milk you can get milk that's
[02:56:55] protein it's another dessert which is as good as tear-missue it's as good as
[02:57:00] 94% of tear-missue because there's only 6% of tear-missue that are mind-blowing
[02:57:05] the rest of them you know they're okay is it because of the coffee I have no idea
[02:57:10] I don't know I'm at any idea what's in tear-missue I don't know what it is but it
[02:57:13] tastes good in 6% situations mole 100% taste good how's this last night speaking
[02:57:20] of milk I ran out of milk so do I just be a savage in put water in it because
[02:57:25] it wasn't that serious keep in mind and this literally true had I was eating
[02:57:29] steak rice broccoli and that was sort of it yeah whatever yeah I need a little
[02:57:35] something right so figureless but the thing when you eat steak rice broccoli
[02:57:40] you don't need additional protein necessarily unless the steak is small I
[02:57:44] get it but at that moment you know does really need it I just wanted it but I'm
[02:57:49] out of milk so you see my conundrum right is it kind of don't worth it kind of
[02:57:53] situation but I found some you know the one in the can evaporated milk you
[02:57:59] know that thing you ever tasted that before yeah yeah yeah right doesn't taste
[02:58:02] good yeah taste pretty whack actually but put it in the milk it makes it like
[02:58:08] more creamy oh it was good it was surprisingly good yes so it was like a it was
[02:58:14] like the same deal the dessert little bit extra creamy I put some peanut butter
[02:58:18] and it to give the dark chocolate one so yes milk you are correct 100% be
[02:58:23] little so I'm gonna be little the other day and I said you know I've only
[02:58:27] actually had the darkness milk a couple times you have yes and he said you
[02:58:33] gotta try it again it's really good and so I went home and I was like okay I'm
[02:58:38] gonna have I'm gonna have the dark darkness it's good oh yeah it's a
[02:58:42] much of my main jam right now oh really darkness you yeah so all I've kind of
[02:58:47] disparaged that flavor a bit of you know I've been like well you know
[02:58:53] everything else is so great and then they're chocolate the darkness now I'm
[02:58:57] sort of thinking I underestimated the quality and the taste of the darkness
[02:59:03] okay so you get milk you can also get strawberry milk and chocolate milk for
[02:59:08] your kids warrior kid milk so that they're healthy for the strawberry one I'm
[02:59:13] not saying do this but do this just try it how about this just try it add a half
[02:59:18] of banana in it just do that my report back did I tell you my daughter the other day
[02:59:23] she sent me she's in college and she sent me a snapchat yeah sure yeah you're
[02:59:30] on snapchat oh good yeah well yeah that's that's closed scenario with the
[02:59:35] fan oh close circle I got you and anyways cuz she's a 18 year old girl she sent me a
[02:59:43] snap of her yeah of her shake and it said it said you could you could just
[02:59:51] know exactly what it said it said literally a peanut butter chocolate milk shake
[02:59:56] that was the the text and then she called me because I don't really check
[03:00:03] snap that often of course I don't think I've got it live for notifications but
[03:00:09] then she said you know she sent me a text check your snap and I said why what is
[03:00:14] everything okay you know it's like I literally just made the best it's literally
[03:00:19] so anyway I think it's complete hilarity not 99% 100% hilarity how
[03:00:27] witnessing second hand by the way you navigate your way through the current
[03:00:33] trends of 18 year old snapchat lingo scenarios it's very funny yeah and I'm sure
[03:00:42] I'm not the only one yeah also jocquwaiti yes not forget about the jocquwaiti
[03:00:49] you know once you kind of deadlift all that way to whatever we tend to forget
[03:00:53] where you know how you got there so let's just not forget that and plus
[03:00:57] winter is here kind of sure yeah follows but what that means is warm drinks
[03:01:04] there's one there are the two drinks to drink warm milk warm I
[03:01:11] chalk it milk warm where your kid milk is better warm interesting yeah and I
[03:01:16] did that experiment it was a while ago right when the word kid came out it's
[03:01:20] better warm or you can drink it jocquwaiti warm it's good if you haven't been
[03:01:27] already yes you can get all these amazing I shouldn't say amazing
[03:01:33] amazing is one of those words that it like it started off as a joke because
[03:01:37] people were too oh my gosh amazing but you're not amazed by this just say good
[03:01:42] or whatever unless those jokes so I'd say it as a joke mocking every
[03:01:45] guy you know I rose into your normal language I did that anyway these items
[03:01:53] to keep you on the path help yourself help others all that origami
[03:01:59] dot com is where you know also jocquwaiti store it's called jocquwaiti store so
[03:02:03] you go to jocquwaiti store dot com what can get there rash cards rash cards this is
[03:02:08] like representative of the path you're on the path you represent on the path
[03:02:12] the kind like if people know if you listen and you know you see somebody
[03:02:17] representing in the wild you know they're on the path 100% oh yeah even at the
[03:02:24] gym I'll see people right there well there's a lot of people wearing the
[03:02:28] rack guard here at our gym yeah so there you're gonna make a lot of this oh yeah
[03:02:32] to me that tells me 100% like that you know when I see somebody that's
[03:02:38] wearing you know that's representing I just give them like a little head a
[03:02:43] little something yes or me too yeah because it's not it's not acknowledgement
[03:02:48] it's unification right yes I'm with you yeah we're together we're in this
[03:02:53] fight I feel it too man and I think that's a common thing you know like I'm
[03:02:59] sure Pete could tell you too like if you was at the post office or wherever any
[03:03:03] sees like somebody with the you know some or jean boots on or something like this he
[03:03:07] just kind of look at him look at the boot to me like yeah yeah man 100% if you
[03:03:12] yes you know t-shirts truckers hats beanie's hoodies what else good stuff
[03:03:21] he calls on there we replaced some stuff yeah it's just go up jockel store dot com
[03:03:26] if you like something hey man get something represent good spot don't forget
[03:03:31] about this podcast if you want to listen to it and when you want to know when it
[03:03:35] comes out then you can subscribe to this podcast wherever you subscribe to
[03:03:39] podcasts which is a good call because echo doesn't think you've subscribed to it yet
[03:03:45] I factually don't think that okay I think I think I agree to say it anymore
[03:03:52] no well you know I think it's a cool record right there you just got trapped it's a
[03:03:59] cool reminder for sure yes wherever you listen to podcasts yes subscribe if you
[03:04:04] would if you want fully also speaking of subscribing it's another podcast that
[03:04:10] people seem to like call ground it keep you grounded kind of you jiu-jiu
[03:04:17] uh a theme this is not it's not really a jiu-jiu-jiu thing kind of is it's just
[03:04:23] more what exploring certain elements of life in a little bit more loose way
[03:04:30] I guess yeah that's a good way of talking about it yeah it's just kind of a
[03:04:35] little bit more mellow version of the jiu-jiu podcast yeah it's just got to talk
[03:04:40] about stuff but when you listen to it like you feel you it kind of feels like
[03:04:46] the feeling right because you have a certain experience when you listen to
[03:04:50] to podcasts the feeling you get because I listen to it I don't get feelings
[03:04:54] but go ahead we get feeling it's kind of like okay a conversation pointer on about a
[03:05:00] certain thing and you kind of want to chime in more like that's how I feel you know
[03:05:05] like like when I'll listen to it's like a conversation going on kind of with you
[03:05:08] it's what I feel like you know just those my one of my prelimic experiences with it
[03:05:12] nonetheless called grounded podcast same-duo on uh you know iTunes Google Play all that stuff
[03:05:19] also the worry kid podcast hmm don't worry about that one yeah the young ones don't
[03:05:23] forget about that one and we have two in the bank I got one more to prep and we'll get
[03:05:29] another three warrior kid podcast out there so working it and then don't forget about the
[03:05:34] warrior kid soap from Irish Oaks Ranch.com if you're gonna support a warrior kid it's a good
[03:05:41] way to do it he's running a business at age 13 no big deal yeah with legitimate products
[03:05:48] by the way because one thing again I said this for like you know how your friend
[03:05:53] where your neighbor whoever they give you the soap wrapped in the little decorative plastics
[03:06:00] ribbons you know that soap not really but continue well they'll do it from time to time
[03:06:06] and they're like hey here's your gift item you know soap it's like cool that's a hint
[03:06:11] but you would think but it's not real soap it's real soap technically but like you
[03:06:18] use it and you're like brother this isn't for use this is like a decorative piece you put
[03:06:23] on the sink on the side or something like that like that's what it is but this one
[03:06:27] shaped like a claim or mine or something you should be usually it's shaped like a turtle shell
[03:06:33] or like a you know rain drop I don't know fabrius tank typically no
[03:06:40] nonetheless jacco jacco soap the one the eight inmates is like good you it's soap so
[03:06:48] like you use it you're supposed to use it's not a wall hanger it's not a decorative piece
[03:06:53] you got it functional as you say it will help you stay clean also youtube channel if you're interested
[03:07:01] in the video version of this podcast you know if you have a smart TV like hanging in your wall
[03:07:07] in your gym you're wearing your house whatever office whatever you want to play this podcast
[03:07:11] boom put on the youtube version i say that because i hear that people are doing that
[03:07:16] mmm i've seen videos of people doing that me too this is pretty cool plus you can see echoes videos
[03:07:21] that he well it's up for debate whether he goes overboard or not i think some that's clearly
[03:07:27] that it has gone over what i think they're like like what do you call borderline push the envelope
[03:07:32] oh man i see the perfect amount of modulation with fire explosions sound effects
[03:07:42] and cello yeah check that out we also got psychological warfare if you need a little
[03:07:51] mental support that's me giving it to you through your MP3 platform then there's flipside
[03:07:58] canvas dot com this is a visual support run by my brother decona mire who's making graphic art
[03:08:06] representation of the path cool stuff check that out flipside canvas dot com okay we got some books
[03:08:12] number one the stress effect look we got two more podcasts with dick Thompson he wrote a book
[03:08:18] we'll cover it in the third podcast but it's called the stress effect if you want to get ahead
[03:08:21] you can order it now we've got it listed on the website why smart leaders make dumb decision
[03:08:28] and what to do about it the stress effect so check that out of course we also have leadership strategy
[03:08:35] and tactics which is my new book coming out January 14th i was flipping through the index it's
[03:08:43] heavily indexed to book so that you can quickly find what you're looking for but it's pretty cool
[03:08:50] when you when you are looking through the index here's some here's some things communication
[03:08:56] with bosses forms of complaints complex problems compromise condis-concention
[03:09:05] confidence construction sites contingency planning counseling
[03:09:12] count nins it's got some it's got some very interesting topics all about leadership check that one out
[03:09:19] then of course there are the warrior kid books one two and three to get kids on the path we got
[03:09:26] Mikey in the dragons for the little or kid teach that kid to overcome fear we have the
[03:09:33] discipline equals freedom of field man the first field manual about how to be on the path if you want
[03:09:38] to know about workouts there's a bunch of workouts in there for you if you want to know about
[03:09:44] martial arts there's a bunch about martial arts in there if you want to know about food it's in there
[03:09:48] sleep it's in there all that stuff's in there and then there is the thoughts from me and
[03:09:59] and then there's extreme ownership and the dichotomy of leadership these are the two leadership
[03:10:02] books that I wrote with my brother-lave babbin and if you need help with your leadership you can
[03:10:08] check those out there's also echelon front this is our leadership consultancy and what we do is
[03:10:13] solve problems through leadership go to echelon front dot com for that if you want to get
[03:10:18] some of that training online check out eF online you don't need someone from echelon front to show
[03:10:24] up at your business to give you the instruction you can get it from eF online online training
[03:10:31] interactive online training then we have the master the next master is in Sydney Australia
[03:10:39] which is happening now this is probably already done so look at extreme ownership dot com for
[03:10:46] details of the forthcoming masters in 2020 and then we have eF Overwatch and eF Legion
[03:10:53] this is where we are taking folks from the military and placing them into civilian companies
[03:11:00] that need leadership and if you want to continue to hear from us then you can interact with us
[03:11:10] on the interwebs and dick Thompson is on Twitter by the way he is at HPS underscore CEO
[03:11:22] and he also has a website HP ciss ys dot com that's high-performance systems that's his company
[03:11:30] so if you want to check out or you want to interact with dick Thompson
[03:11:34] incredible human being check him out and then also we are on Twitter as well we are an Instagram
[03:11:43] and we are on e-old phasinbotic echo is at echo Charles and I am at jocca willic and thanks
[03:11:49] once again to doctor Henry dick Thompson for sharing his wisdom on this program today and more
[03:12:00] important thanks to Colonel Thompson for his service and sacrifice to protect freedom and democracy
[03:12:07] around the world for his whole career and thanks to the rest of our military men and women that
[03:12:13] are out there today doing the same for us now and to all the police and law enforcement and fire
[03:12:20] fighters and paramedics and EMTs and dispatchers and correctional officers and board patrol secret
[03:12:25] service and all first responders thank you for protecting us here on the home front
[03:12:32] and to everyone else out there we all want to do better
[03:12:40] to everybody wants to be better everyone talks about becoming better but I'll tell you right now it
[03:12:47] doesn't just happen in fact it will not happen on its own it will not happen on its own you have
[03:12:58] to make it happen you have to lead yourself you have to make yourself better by attacking
[03:13:04] every day in spite of whatever challenges you face every day go out there and get after it
[03:13:14] and until next time this is echo and jockel out