Jocko Podcast 187 w/ Dave Berke: Principles, Tactics, and Creativity Dominates

2019-07-25T01:48:57Z

Join the conversation on Twitter/Instagram: @jockowillink @davidRberke @echocharles 0:00:00 - Opening 0:03:36 - Marine Corps Doctrinal Publication MCDP 1-3 Tactics. 2:32:19 - SUPPORT: How to stay on THE PATH. JOCKO STORE Apparel: https://www.jockostore.com/collection... All Supplements: https://originmaine.com/nutrition/joc... Origin Jeans and Clothes: https://originmaine.com/durable-goods/ Origin Gis: https://originmaine.com/bjj-mma-fit/ Onnit Stuff: http://www.onnit.com/jocko Jocko White Tea: http://www.jockotea.com 2:53:38 - Closing Gratitude.

AI summary of episode

The best leaders they're completely comfortable doing that because they know what their guy's going to do because they have trained them so hard they have to do that situation so many times that they're because for all the cast that is definitely going to ensue he's extremely he knows exactly what his guy's going to do and how they're going to react. You can't just be awesome at one thing you can't just be all about the signs of these things and when you usually work creativity when you see people do things like that and it's like it's like artistry you see just the flow and the maneuvers and the things that are coming in and I'm sure that that first the five of six when he said do it. This is what's happened and it's going, we know it's going to happen and I don't know where it's going to happen again for sure. Do it and knowing what's going to happen you know well, but beyond what what people can see it in real time and knowing that you can't know what's going to happen for sure. So I'm going to make these incremental decisions that are going to lead me toward my final objective, but it's going to it's going to prevent me from getting stagnant and waiting and not gaining any new information. and people sometimes forget the golf war was like four days you know the the sustain combat operations was like 96 hours something like that. You know, going back to the patches with me and life, you know, hey, I'm not going to expend a bunch of leadership capital in the fact that you are wearing these patches. You know are we really going to fight another like actual war are we really going to do that? Oh, like there's going to be things that aren't going the way I'm going to say that when you get up on the high ground and you look around, you can see things that other people aren't going to see and you can make really good decisions. And next thing you know that that that event completely fueled the insurgency for sure that tiny tactical that people like tiny tactical event had massive think of how many enemy fighters that recruited and made our job strategically that much harder. And when you see it, you're going to have to step and you're going to have to make that decision and there's going to be risking that decision. Instead of me going, hey, man, can you explain to me, I want to understand how you're going to execute this thing, because it's important for me to understand what you're thinking. but they had 50 armor pieces that drink like diesel like what do you think they get to I mean it's just something it's just something completely crazy probably two miles to the gallon or something like that. Like I would be looking at the battle map going into on my first deployment, we'd be going into some random town. Obviously, that's a really good thing, but you can't be like that all the time, because if you're overaggressive and you've been wrong opportunity or you're actually so aggressive that you haven't had a chance to bring all your forces to bear when actually is most effective. That's when he kind of, when I got to know that he said, oh, I think this is what people from a leadership perspective, if you have a deterministic viewpoint of leadership, hey, when the person does this, oh, here's the prescription for that. But when you're, and then I told them, you know, when we were going through this training, it was like this for me every time. Yeah, and leaders will create this scenario by which, okay, if I, if I acquiesce on that one little thing, that's a weakness and they're going to see that I don't hold the line on that and so it's going to infect everything else. When I looked back at my first deployment to Iraq, once we were in Romadi for like a month, I realized, because my first deployment we'd be going all over the place, you know, we did a lot of work in Baghdad, but Baghdad is huge. I'm going to subtly and smoothly point out the little mistakes in the plan that you had and I'm going to actually let you come to the conclusion. I read these books and I listen to the podcast and it's only hard for me to even try to relate to the idea that I was in combat in an airplane, you know, given what these things sound like. If you over and over again, I'm I'm going to just roll over when you say that and it's going to make it worse for me, but there are times that actually the frontal assault does work. And what's even going to drive these people into a worse situation from a leadership perspective is they're going to realize that you don't care about them. So when we're working with, when we are working with a company at echelon front, it seems like oftentimes what people learn about business, like let's say they get their MBA from somewhere or they even if they've gone through some kind of a program, whatever kind of program. The things that I would see now the things that I would know to look for now that I didn't even think of then and what you just said that that that last comment that that's everywhere that that that that training p all the pieces of the go into that and any one of them without the other doesn't work. And they know that what's required is actually going to learn the tactics that you will apply as an artillery man or an infantry man or a supply officer or a legislation. You know, 1971 like if you joined if you got to the field teams in 1971 or 1972 you didn't you know you didn't go to Vietnam. That was my main effort for like, you know, I actually it was the main effort when I was editing. One thing we know is if we develop leaders and we start to get on the path, it's going to develop in a great way. It didn't really occurred to me till years later talking, you know, conversation we had about when the seals are trying to introduce goggles and guys like, hey, we don't need that kind of stuff. He's actually looking up and seeing this is the reaction that I'm going to get this is what's going to happen. And I'm like, I'm like, hey, bro, and he's like, what's up, sir? Because when we win this war, our kids don't have to go to war and we're going to have stability, we're going to have security. The answer is, if you, if what, if I'm going to have a conversation with you and it's going to move our relationship forward, that's probably the right answer. But we're going to do things that will reveal their vulnerability and then I'm going to apply whatever that is to crush them. And people write that off like, oh, he's got people that are naturally intuitive, actually aren't naturally intuitive. And if I say prioritizing execute, the first thing that people jump to is, I got to get the right resources and make sure I know what the right priorities are. Which I don't know when I covered that on this podcast, but it was like podcast, five or something like that.

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Episode transcript

[00:00:00] This is Jockel Podcast number 187 with David Burke and me, Jockel Willink. Good evening, Dave.
[00:00:08] Good evening. In case anyone was wondering where echo Charles is at this time, echo is actually, you know, Hawaii.
[00:00:19] Trying to get back in touch with Kaina, the land as we used to call it, and he will be back in a few more episodes.
[00:00:29] I mean time, I got Dave Burke here, who now lives in the AO of San Diego. And if you don't know about Dave, he was on this podcast number 69 and number 135.
[00:00:42] He was a Marine Corps fighter pilot through the F-18. He was a top gun pilot, top gun instructor, top gun senior instructor F-16 pilot F-22 pilot F-35 pilot.
[00:00:56] The first and still only one of a few pilots qualified on all those platforms. He was the first commanding officer of an F-35 operational squadron.
[00:01:07] And on top of that, he was the commander of Anglico Salt 6 on the ground with us in the battle of Ramadi.
[00:01:14] And he and his team did scores of operations with TU Bruser.
[00:01:21] And he is now with us on the team at Escelon Front where he leads the long range leadership development and alignment program.
[00:01:32] So Dave, thanks for coming on and filling in for echo.
[00:01:36] It's good to be here.
[00:01:37] Have you been brushing up on your video games and 80s and 90s movies?
[00:01:46] Unfortunately, no, I'm not going to be able to fill in for that.
[00:01:50] Check, well, actually it's a good thing that you do have the experience that you have and it doesn't have very much to do with Super Mario Bros.
[00:01:57] Because I want to talk tactics and it's one of my, I don't know, I really thought it was one of my favorite Marine Corps doctrinal publications.
[00:02:07] That's kind of a, that's really a big statement as if I sit around and grade which ones my favorite, but it definitely is up there.
[00:02:15] It is MCDP 1.3 tactics.
[00:02:20] So let's get into it.
[00:02:25] How long are you in the Marine Corps for?
[00:02:29] 23 years.
[00:02:30] 23 years and retard is what a lieutenant colonel.
[00:02:33] Lieutenant colonel.
[00:02:34] Check.
[00:02:35] Did you, so you went to the basics school?
[00:02:38] I did.
[00:02:39] Did you guys cover this in the basics school?
[00:02:40] Absolutely.
[00:02:41] When I went to the basics school in 1994, it was the predecessors, basically the same pub.
[00:02:46] The one dashed the way in a different, slightly different name, but pretty much the same stuff.
[00:02:50] And I actually looked, this one is dated July of 1997.
[00:02:55] I looked for a newer one, then there isn't one.
[00:02:59] This is it.
[00:03:00] Yep.
[00:03:01] And it's interesting because you'll, everyone will see there's examples in here.
[00:03:05] They don't have examples obviously from Iraq and Afghanistan or Iraq II and then Afghanistan.
[00:03:10] I'm sure at some point they will, they will do that because they got a lot of go for examples.
[00:03:18] And I, you know, obviously they were just looking for some recent examples when they did it in 97.
[00:03:23] That was the last big war.
[00:03:26] So there you go.
[00:03:28] But we'll get into it.
[00:03:30] And the book starts with a forward and because it's the Marine Corps, the Marine Corps, even when they write a forward, it sounds good.
[00:03:39] So this is how it starts off.
[00:03:43] This publication is about winning in combat.
[00:03:50] Is there any better way to start this manual?
[00:03:53] Nope.
[00:03:54] This publication is about winning in combat.
[00:03:56] Winning requires many things, excellence in techniques and appreciation of the enemy, exemplary leadership,
[00:04:01] battlefield judgment and focused combat power.
[00:04:04] Yet these factors by themselves do not ensure success in battle.
[00:04:08] Many armors, armies, both winners and losers have possessed many or all of these attributes.
[00:04:14] When we examine closely the difference between the differences between Victor and Vanquist, we draw one conclusion.
[00:04:22] Success went to the armies whose leaders, senior and junior could best focus their efforts, their skills and their resources toward a decisive end.
[00:04:35] Sounds like the Marine Corps is a...
[00:04:37] Saying that leadership is the most important thing on the battlefield.
[00:04:40] Repeatedly.
[00:04:41] And when your TBS, you're there to be a leader, that is what you hear every single day.
[00:04:45] Leadership is the difference.
[00:04:48] Their success arose not merely from excellence in techniques, procedures and material, but from their leader,
[00:04:55] but from their leaders abilities to uniquely and effectively combine them.
[00:05:02] Winning in combat depends upon tactical leaders who can think creatively and act decisively.
[00:05:08] So taking all of these techniques and these procedures and the material and being able to take those things and mix them up and combine them together.
[00:05:20] That is what makes... that's the winning combination, the creativity.
[00:05:25] How often did people at TBS talk about being creative?
[00:05:29] Believe it or not, they never used those... they didn't say be creative, they would say think.
[00:05:34] They'd give you all these doctrine and pubs and all these rules, but they would say you actually need to think and think of what makes the most sense here.
[00:05:39] And they bred a lot of flexibility.
[00:05:41] I never remember anybody saying be creative, but they said think about it.
[00:05:45] Think of this makes sense.
[00:05:46] And if it doesn't, do something else.
[00:05:47] And these are the rules, the guidelines, but there was always this maneuvering around there to bring all those pieces together.
[00:05:52] I say that combat is an exercise in creativity.
[00:05:57] And people, especially people that don't know anything about combat or war anything, they always kind of...
[00:06:05] They don't always surprise them, right?
[00:06:08] Because they think creative being creative is writing a song or painting a picture.
[00:06:15] But for me being a creative is positioning your machine gunner effectively.
[00:06:20] Yeah.
[00:06:21] Right? I mean that's like true creativity.
[00:06:25] I mean, leaders just not a template.
[00:06:27] It isn't just, here's what to do in this situation.
[00:06:29] You have to think you have to think creatively and come up with the best idea.
[00:06:32] I see that in Mix Martial Arts.
[00:06:34] One of my favorite Mixed Martial Artists of all time.
[00:06:37] Do you know who Fade or Amelie Niko is?
[00:06:39] I do.
[00:06:40] You do.
[00:06:41] I do.
[00:06:42] Okay, I'm impressed with your knowledge.
[00:06:44] So two things about Fade or number one, he was completely stoic.
[00:06:48] And never showed any emotions.
[00:06:50] Winner lose, didn't matter.
[00:06:52] You could look at him after a fight and you wouldn't know if he just won the Pride GP
[00:06:56] or if he just lost his first match and his life.
[00:06:58] He looked the same.
[00:07:00] And so that's one very good lesson learned from Fade or the other lesson learned from Fade or
[00:07:07] his Fade or would take the skills that he had and apply them in very creative ways
[00:07:14] where you'd say, oh, he just did, you know, a judo throw followed by a
[00:07:21] mission, a sombo submission attempt followed by just dropping bombs of ground and pound.
[00:07:26] And those are all three separate things.
[00:07:29] And he would just mix them up all really well together.
[00:07:32] And that when you see that's like the new level of Mixed Martial Arts.
[00:07:37] Is the older generation?
[00:07:39] Hey, I was really good at GJT or hey, I was really good at wrestling or hey, I was really good at striking.
[00:07:43] And I would kind of stay in my lane and if I could bring you into my world, I could beat you.
[00:07:47] Now it's just who has who can take all these tools and get creative with them and apply them to this scenario that they're in.
[00:07:54] Same thing with leadership, same thing with combat leadership.
[00:07:57] And by the way, same thing with all leadership, it doesn't only apply to combat.
[00:08:01] Check.
[00:08:02] All right.
[00:08:03] Moving on, this book pertains equally to all marine leaders, whether they're duties in tail combat, service support, combat support, or combat arms.
[00:08:12] All Marines face tactical decisions in battle regardless of their roles.
[00:08:16] And here's must develop and hone their war fighting skills through study and practice.
[00:08:20] This publication serves as a guide for that professional development.
[00:08:23] It addresses the theory of tactics and its application in a chaotic and uncertain environment.
[00:08:29] The concepts and ideas within this publication are battle tested.
[00:08:34] Throughout our history, one of the most important reasons for the success of the United States Marine Corps has been the military skill of our leaders at every level of command.
[00:08:43] Through their tactical skill and battlefield judgment, our commanders achieve tactical and operational advantage at the decisive time and place.
[00:08:53] And they talk a lot about the chaotic and uncertain environment, which, as we know, that's what combat is and, by the way, that's what life is.
[00:09:01] That's what business is.
[00:09:02] That's what the world is.
[00:09:06] So getting into chapter one, understanding tactics.
[00:09:14] Such a straightforward.
[00:09:17] The Marine Corps, the Marine Corps doctrines, doctrinal materialists, so straightforward and so simply written.
[00:09:24] It's just outstanding.
[00:09:26] Starts off with a couple quotes.
[00:09:30] In tactics, the most important thing is not whether you go left or right, but why you go left or right.
[00:09:38] And that's from General Al-Gray.
[00:09:42] Twenty-nineth, common-dom, other Marine Corps, 41 years, three purple hearts, Korea, Vietnam, a Mustang officer, by the way, gets some.
[00:09:52] He is the only one.
[00:09:55] He's the only common-dom that's pictured in his official picture as the common-dom Marine Corps in his camp.
[00:10:03] He's absolutely.
[00:10:04] He's a legend.
[00:10:05] I think I had like a maybe a year to overlap with him where I was in and he was in.
[00:10:11] I think he retired in like 91 or 92 or something like that.
[00:10:15] And yeah.
[00:10:16] So there you go.
[00:10:17] The most important thing is why understanding why.
[00:10:20] This is underlying tenant really of decentralized command, but of all leadership.
[00:10:26] Next one is next quote is, there is only one principle of war, and that's this.
[00:10:32] Hit the other fellow as quick as you can as hard as you can where it hurts in the most when he ain't looking.
[00:10:39] That's Sir William Slim, who's actually a Brit.
[00:10:47] Front World War I and World War II.
[00:10:51] What's up with fighting in World War I and World War II?
[00:10:55] Totally mad.
[00:10:57] It's just like we've talked about World War I on this podcast a few times.
[00:11:01] You and I have and did what a savage experience and to the role right back and do it again.
[00:11:06] You know, 25 years later.
[00:11:07] Yeah.
[00:11:08] Yeah, what's up with that?
[00:11:09] Hey.
[00:11:10] Yeah, you know you barely survived.
[00:11:12] Guess what?
[00:11:13] Go get some more.
[00:11:14] And by the way, he like led the fight in Japan, led the fight against Japan and in Burma.
[00:11:20] I mean, that guy was no joke.
[00:11:22] So there's the principle.
[00:11:24] Go hard, go fast, hit him with a knock.
[00:11:28] All right, continue on.
[00:11:29] This book is about winning in combat, winning requires a thorough understanding of and knowledge of tactics.
[00:11:35] But what is tactics?
[00:11:37] An art and a science tactics is the art and science of winning engagements and battles.
[00:11:43] It includes use of firepower and maneuver.
[00:11:46] The integration of different arms and the immediate exploitation of success to defeat the enemy.
[00:11:52] As well as the sustainment of forces during combat.
[00:11:57] So think about that right there.
[00:11:59] You got the art and science.
[00:12:01] It includes firepower firepower maneuver, cover move fire maneuver, right?
[00:12:06] Different arms taking all the different all the different assets that you have and applying them correctly.
[00:12:12] And then on top of that, the immediate exploitation of success to defeat the enemy.
[00:12:17] So when things are going good and you see the enemy start to crack.
[00:12:20] It's time to drop the hammer.
[00:12:22] Yep.
[00:12:23] It also includes the technical application of combat power, which consists of those techniques and procedures for accomplishing specific tax within a tax collection.
[00:12:34] So I guess they're saying technical application of combat power.
[00:12:38] This is like one level below tactics.
[00:12:40] This is like you're going to shoot correctly.
[00:12:42] You're going to.
[00:12:43] Yeah, and you actually have to know how all of your equipment works.
[00:12:46] This machine gun will go this far.
[00:12:48] Be effective at this range and beyond that range.
[00:12:50] You need another piece of equipment.
[00:12:51] So you have to actually know all these technical things.
[00:12:53] It's no different in an airplane.
[00:12:55] You have to have all the understanding of how all these things work.
[00:12:58] But that by itself is enough.
[00:13:00] That's where the creativity comes in and hey, I'm going to use this machine gun to get this reaction.
[00:13:04] And they're going to move in some other direction.
[00:13:05] And then I'm going to apply other combat power.
[00:13:07] I have to know what that power can do and where it works.
[00:13:10] And that's the art that they're talking about.
[00:13:12] It's bringing all these things in together.
[00:13:13] And the good commanders recognize they see it go now it's time for this.
[00:13:16] Not because the book says the range because they see it as a leader and to apply that.
[00:13:21] I was in the talk for the first the 506 in Ramadi and their battalion commander was just like such a legit guy.
[00:13:32] And there was a lot of mayhem going on and he's sitting there in a chair in the talk.
[00:13:38] Just you know just a normal whatever crappy chair and and he they're getting questions from the field.
[00:13:44] They're want to drop like a building.
[00:13:46] They want to call Q after there's a bunch of things going on.
[00:13:49] And this guy he was just and one day he's going to be on the podcast.
[00:13:52] He was just but I've just watched him and this is when I first got to Ramadi and watch this guy.
[00:13:56] And they're going hey, sir.
[00:13:58] They want to bring tanks down to this area.
[00:14:00] They got to bring their to bring even fire and he'd like look at it kind of glance over at the map and he'd be it's a do it.
[00:14:07] Just as calm as you could possibly be pretty awesome.
[00:14:11] Yeah, that guy had some some serious he had the he had a good handle on the art and the science.
[00:14:18] Back to the book tactics refers to the concepts and methods we use to accomplish a particular military of in a particular objective in either combat or military operations other than war in war.
[00:14:29] Tactics is the application of combat power to defeat the enemy and engagements and battles combat power is the total destructive force we can bring to bear against the enemy.
[00:14:39] It is a unique product of a river of a variety of physical moral and mental factors.
[00:14:48] See, so this so this is when you start talking about leadership, right?
[00:14:52] Because because okay, the physical thing we get we get what guns are we get what airplanes are we get what tactical maneuvers are.
[00:14:58] But then when you start talking about the moral and the mental factors and how you're going to get a bunch of human beings to do something that is going to be dangerous to them.
[00:15:10] Yeah, and to expect that from a 19 year old Marine.
[00:15:14] He's they said at the beginning this is leadership at every level lands corprals fire team leaders and expecting and demanding that they behave morally in what's going to be maybe the most brutal physical situation they'll be in their lives.
[00:15:27] And recognizing that without that you're going to lose in the long run.
[00:15:30] That's a losing plan to be devoid of morals in doing this in combat.
[00:15:34] It's pretty amazing.
[00:15:36] That's the super strategic picture.
[00:15:40] Yeah, the long game they realize without it in the end we will lose if we don't have that freedom of the moral high ground was right.
[00:15:47] Tactics results in the actions and counter actions between opposing forces.
[00:15:53] It includes the use of maneuver supported by the application and coordination of fires to gain advantage in order to defeat the enemy.
[00:16:01] In military operations other than war tactics may be the schemes and methods by which we perform other missions such as to control a crowd or provide a secure environment for the delivery of food medicine or supplies to a nation or people in need.
[00:16:16] As stated in the definition, I wonder if this would get one when this gets rewritten right now.
[00:16:22] If they'll tone back if they won't mention as much like the military operations other than war.
[00:16:27] Because that in 1997 there was a lot of death.
[00:16:31] They kind of seem like what the world was going to be now.
[00:16:34] You know it's going to be, hey look we might not be fighting a war ever again.
[00:16:38] But we're going to be doing things that will require that's what they call the military for those of you that are wondering what that is military operations other than war.
[00:16:47] This is like a humanitarian assistance mission. This is like a security and stabilization mission.
[00:16:52] So those kind of things crowd control those kind of things what they're talking about and in the this was written in 97.
[00:17:00] So and it's certainly you certainly could have if you had a naive view of the world you certainly could have fought yourself.
[00:17:08] You know are we really going to fight another like actual war are we really going to do that?
[00:17:16] And it's really easy to look at it from a logical perspective and say listen America's just this giant country we have the super military force and technology.
[00:17:28] And no one is going to step up to the plate for getting some right.
[00:17:33] So let's just focus on these other things.
[00:17:36] You pretty easy to think that.
[00:17:38] Yeah I actually remember when I was gotten on the Marine Corps in 94 desert strong was in the review mirror.
[00:17:43] I kind of missed that big up and I remember thinking wonderful.
[00:17:46] I really want to get into combat.
[00:17:48] You know and a lot of years went by before the opportunity was there and a lot of us thought that might never happen in my career.
[00:17:55] Yeah.
[00:17:56] A lot of people never did they spent that decade in the Korean 91 2001 they did eight nine ten years and they got out and never saw anything like that.
[00:18:02] I know guys that did 25 30 years came in in 1973 1974 and 1975.
[00:18:10] You know, 1971 like if you joined if you got to the field teams in 1971 or 1972 you didn't you know you didn't go to Vietnam.
[00:18:20] Yeah well actually so let's look at it.
[00:18:22] You if you went straight into the seal seal teams you you joined in 1970 it took you.
[00:18:28] It took you you know to go through boot camp next thing you know it's 1971 and a half.
[00:18:34] And then you show up at a seal team and now it's 1972 and there's no they're not pulling.
[00:18:37] Pulltons anymore yeah so there's a couple there's some some odds and ends are still going over but they're not deploying straight up.
[00:18:43] Peltunes if you're a new guy.
[00:18:45] You don't go.
[00:18:46] And now.
[00:18:47] If you didn't do anything in the golf which was there's a couple of platoons in the golf there's a couple of platoons in Panama.
[00:18:53] There's a couple platoons in Grenada there.
[00:18:54] You know what I mean it's like if you weren't one of those people.
[00:18:57] You could easily have gone through 30 year career.
[00:19:00] Next thing you know you look up it's 2001 you're you well it's been the year 2000 and you're retiring.
[00:19:06] 1970 to 2000 yeah and people sometimes forget the golf war was like four days you know the the sustain combat operations was like 96 hours something like that.
[00:19:15] And if you miss that which a lot of people did that was the big show in an entire generation.
[00:19:21] Yeah.
[00:19:22] Going back to the book as the as stated in the definition tactics is a combination of art and science to gain victory over the enemy.
[00:19:33] The art of tactics lies in how we create creative creatively form and apply military force in a given situation.
[00:19:44] I really like talking about that creatively form and apply military force in a given situation it involves the creation positioning and maneuver of combat power when do we flank the enemy.
[00:19:57] And when do we ambush him when do we attack and when do we infiltrate how do we use speed and momentum to achieve a decisive advantage.
[00:20:06] This creativity is developed as a developed capacity acquired through education practice and experience.
[00:20:18] How much more how much more qualified are you right now to be on the battle ground but be on the battlefield and the body in 2006 how much more qualified are you now than you were then.
[00:20:33] The things that I would see now the things that I would know to look for now that I didn't even think of then and what you just said that that that last comment that that's everywhere that that that that training p all the pieces of the go into that and any one of them without the other doesn't work.
[00:20:51] You can't just be awesome at one thing you can't just be all about the signs of these things and when you usually work creativity when you see people do things like that and it's like it's like artistry you see just the flow and the maneuvers and the things that are coming in and I'm sure that that first the five of six when he said do it.
[00:21:08] He's actually looking up and seeing this is the reaction that I'm going to get this is what's going to happen.
[00:21:13] You know he's seeing those things and I love that image him just sitting there in the chair and like.
[00:21:21] Do it and knowing what's going to happen you know well, but beyond what what people can see it in real time and knowing that you can't know what's going to happen for sure.
[00:21:31] At the same time you're saying you have to do it and then you're thinking okay I know there's a at least at 80% chance that this goes the way I'm thinking oh go and there's also 20% chance that this is something completely different happens and he's also totally relinquished control of what happens next.
[00:21:45] I mean there's nothing he can do once he says do it.
[00:21:48] He's totally relinquished control of of what's going to happen at that point with this guy's and that's it.
[00:21:54] The best leaders they're completely comfortable doing that because they know what their guy's going to do because they have trained them so hard they have to do that situation so many times that they're because for all the cast that is definitely going to ensue he's extremely he knows exactly what his guy's going to do and how they're going to react.
[00:22:13] To the book the science of tactics lies in the tactical application the technical application of combat power includes mastering the techniques and procedures that contribute to the development of war fighting such as Mark Marksmanship navigation gunnery and closer support.
[00:22:28] The execution of these techniques and procedures must become second nature for us this requires intensive and continuous training without mastery of basic war fighting skills.
[00:22:39] And creativity in their application are impossible.
[00:22:45] Discipline equals freedom.
[00:22:48] You've got to have the discipline of the little things and then you can get creative with them.
[00:22:56] Now that we've examined the art and science of tactics let us look at how we can use tactics to complement strategy and campaigning strategy and campaigning bring our forces to a particular place in a particular time.
[00:23:07] We use tactics to win in combat.
[00:23:09] A war typically involves many individual engagements that form a continuous fabric of activity.
[00:23:19] War typically involves many individual engagements that form a continuous fabric of activity.
[00:23:26] There's so much going on in war.
[00:23:29] You know when we did our first big push into I guess it was cop iron and there was 50 armor pieces that we're getting ready to go.
[00:23:41] And like one of them looks someone from the 137 was just talking about okay well here's where we're at with fuel.
[00:23:52] And of course you know we had fuel for our home views home views or whatever you know like we drive around but they had 50 armor pieces that drink like diesel like what do you think they get to I mean it's just something it's just something completely crazy probably two miles to the gallon or something like that.
[00:24:09] Yeah I think it's gallons per mile.
[00:24:11] Yeah I think it's that much worse that much yeah but here we were just thinking okay well the armor just going to be where the armor's got to be and that's all good.
[00:24:20] But they're thinking oh actually no we need to have whatever thousands and thousands of gallons of diesel fuels got to be here and it's got to be there and it's got to be delivered it's got to be good and it's coming from where it's coming from some totally different place.
[00:24:34] And all that stuff has to be orchestrated and boom and there you go and now we're going on this combat operation.
[00:24:39] There's so much going on yeah by the way convoy's get hit fuel big fuel trucks that have 28,000 gallons.
[00:24:51] Like that happened regularly.
[00:24:53] Yep absolutely and on the other side of that when you that phrase that continuous fabric.
[00:24:59] You also have to get the folks at your lowest level the folks out there with a rifle maybe the guys driving the tank to recognize how everything how every individual thing they do actually affects this whole campaign.
[00:25:11] And that even those small individual actions that seem like there's nothing else going on in the world other than you and maybe that that sniper on the roof or that position.
[00:25:20] But even your interaction with that one thing will have implications all the way down to the entire campaign to the strategic level the Marine Corps.
[00:25:28] I don't think they say it anymore the use of a phrase called the strategic corporal with the recognition that even this engagement.
[00:25:34] You were influencing so many of the things at this broad level that you actually have to be aware of your actions and that gets back to that comment about even the moral behavior.
[00:25:42] Think of the times that we saw guys do things that when you were wrong.
[00:25:46] Totally undermine the big strategy because everything got shifted away from the war and got shifted towards whether we did something right or wrong got on the news and all those.
[00:25:54] Yeah, the Abu Graves the one I always talked about Abu Graves for sure.
[00:25:57] But a couple.
[00:25:58] So people act like knock-on heads.
[00:26:00] Yep.
[00:26:00] And next thing you know that that that event completely fueled the insurgency for sure that tiny tactical that people like tiny tactical event had massive think of how many enemy fighters that recruited and made our job strategically that much harder.
[00:26:15] Back to the book.
[00:26:18] In combat our objective is victory.
[00:26:22] Check.
[00:26:25] Sometimes this involves the complete destruction of the enemy's forces.
[00:26:29] At other times achieving victory may be possible by attacking the enemies will to fight.
[00:26:35] The Marine Corps must be equally prepared to win during both situations.
[00:26:40] Those in which the enemy forces must be completely destroyed as during World War II and those in which the complete destruction of the enemies forces may not be necessary or even desirable.
[00:26:52] As the commanding general of the first Marine Division in Desert Storm stated, our focus was not destroying everything.
[00:26:59] Our focus was on the Iraqi mind and getting behind it.
[00:27:03] He knew that the path to victory did not lie in the total destruction of Iraqi forces, but in undermining their will to fight.
[00:27:12] Which they certainly did very effectively.
[00:27:14] Yeah.
[00:27:17] The environment.
[00:27:19] Next section.
[00:27:20] The tactical arena is a dynamic ever-changing environment.
[00:27:23] The complexity of this environment makes combat chaotic and unpredictable.
[00:27:29] As an example of confusion and chaos on the battlefield, consider the amphibious assault on the island of Taurua in November 1943.
[00:27:37] During the assault, the combination of high casualties, lack of effective communications and disruption of the second and eighth Marine regiments landings on the assault beaches led to a chaotic and nearly disaster situation for the second Marine Division.
[00:27:53] Units were decimated under heavy fire.
[00:27:57] The Marine's huddled together under a coconut-log sea wall in intermingled units without effective communications.
[00:28:06] Landing craft carrying reinforcements and supplies could not make it over a core reef to the landing beaches.
[00:28:13] Only through daring leadership, initiative and teamwork, where Marines able to get off the beach and annihilate the defending Japanese force.
[00:28:23] The violence of combat only increases the level of confusion and chaos.
[00:28:29] Robert Shirad, a time in life correspondent at Iwo Jima, gave testimony to this chaos in what he called war at its worst.
[00:28:41] The first night on Iwo Jima can only be described as a nightmare in hell.
[00:28:47] About the beach in the morning, lay the dead.
[00:28:52] And died with the greatest possible violence.
[00:28:55] No wearing the Pacific, have I seen such badly mangled bodies.
[00:29:00] Many were cut squarely in half, legs and arms lay 50 feet from any body.
[00:29:08] Battle is the collision of opposing forces, animate, interactive and unpredictable in behavior.
[00:29:18] The performance varies from week to week, day to day, and even hour to hour as a unit interacts with its environment and the enemy.
[00:29:33] I know you and I often joke about our complete and utter experience just pails.
[00:29:49] And you get in those environments, right? Those environments. And it is this idea of this dynamic and complex and ever-changing battlefield.
[00:30:04] There it is.
[00:30:07] Yeah, I've said it a few times and I still feel this way. I'm embarrassed sometimes to call what I did in an airplane combat. I read these books and I listen to the podcast and it's only hard for me to even try to relate to the idea that I was in combat in an airplane, you know, given what these things sound like.
[00:30:27] Would you think about those king bee pilots from till?
[00:30:31] Yeah, I'd love to share swap stores with those guys. What did I do compared to what they did? You know, there's a quote that I didn't read.
[00:30:39] And I don't know why I didn't. I had it marked, but I just didn't read it.
[00:30:43] But there was like a situation on the ground. There was total enemy fire everywhere.
[00:30:50] And like one aircraft approach got shot out and the team on the ground. This was one of- it was either one of the saw crews who was down in the ground and they're just trying to get extracted.
[00:31:04] And the basically all the pilots are like, hey, we can't go in. You guys need to move to a different extract. You need to move to a different extract.
[00:31:13] You need to go somewhere else. Like we need more fires, but we can't get in there. And this one pilot, this one king bee pilot comes on and he just comes on the mic and says king bee goes down.
[00:31:24] Meaning, hey, I'm going in. Yeah, whatever. There's enemy fire. Cool. Watch this.
[00:31:31] So, I love how this book is called tactics. This book about tactics. And I think that section run is called understanding tactics. And they're talking about the chaos of war.
[00:31:45] It's not a book just about tactics. Do this. Do that. This is what it's about war. And you said it a couple times.
[00:31:53] Success in combat is the only measurement the Marine Corps ever given their Marines to be successful in combat. And to remind them of just how hard that actually is.
[00:32:03] And the things that you're going to see in smelling field and indoor in combat is well beyond what we can replicate in training. And this serves as a reminder.
[00:32:11] You know, day one of you would jima. And it gets back to us. It would be pretty arrogant to think that a day like that could never happen again in the future.
[00:32:21] That we're never going to have something like that ever again. I had a guy was working for a guy and doing a project where the the brief that was given was listened.
[00:32:31] We need as seals to kind of like move in a different direction. Because since we have, you know, satellite coverage, we don't need to do reconnaissance anymore.
[00:32:43] And since we have T-Lams, we don't need to do direct action because we could just send a GPS guided missile like why would you send troops on the ground to go do that?
[00:32:53] Like there's no reason to. And this was, you know, this was around the same time period. This was like 96. 97.
[00:33:00] And the theory was, look, we will not. We as seals are not going to do a direct action mission again. It's just not going to happen.
[00:33:10] And I mean, I was sitting there listening and I was disappointed to hear that, but it was hard for me to think what could bring that about.
[00:33:18] Right? Because every scenario I could think of was, oh, well, you just send in a T-Lam, right? That's what you do. Okay, maybe I was thinking maybe like a hostage rescue scenario. Okay, that's the one.
[00:33:30] How often is that happening, right? So like, yeah. And then, you know, you fast forward. What was it five or six years from there?
[00:33:37] And I was doing it, I was doing a direct action raid almost every night of the week and back then. And we have been for 15 years. Yes. Yes. Exactly.
[00:33:46] When I got to the fleet in 1998, my first fighter squadron combat capable squadron, we got introduced to GPS weapons.
[00:33:52] First squadron in the Marine Corps to get a GPS weapon and the brief that I was given was, you'll never overfly the target again.
[00:34:00] You now have a weapon that you can release from a standoff range that will guide itself to the target. You'll never have to overfly the target, which meant the risk goes down. You'll never have to be worried about smaller.
[00:34:11] Never overfly the target again. And it was three years later, you know, we kicked things off and think of how many times we had to aircraft directly overhead.
[00:34:19] And every one of those missions, you know, expose to the enemy.
[00:34:22] And that complacency that came in from technology will solve these problems for us. What was the threat to your aircraft from your support and troops on the ground in Afghanistan?
[00:34:31] The threat was small arms and and shoulder fired IR man pads that call it, you know, SA7, see short range missiles, which the thing of it is is that if you get outside the three four mile range, there are no, there literally no threat at all.
[00:34:44] But if you get inside that range, almost anybody in the world could pick one of these things up, look through a little optic and shoot it and the missile goes after the heat signature and they were everywhere.
[00:34:54] I went to stinger missile school.
[00:34:57] Yeah, and yeah, it's not it's not a hard weapon to work. I mean, it's, it's, this school is like a week long. I mean, it's not a long school.
[00:35:06] And you go to that school and then you can pick up one of those things and like you just said, I mean, if if I pulled out the manual right now, I could put I could shoot down an aircraft pretty easily.
[00:35:16] If you had spent the last 10 years fighting against the Russians.
[00:35:20] Yeah.
[00:35:20] And you could definitely shoot out an American airplane and that's what we're dealing with this guys. It had actually a lot of experience with it.
[00:35:25] And that stuff was everywhere.
[00:35:27] Yeah, never overfly in the target to you were directly over overhead the target at very low altitudes because you needed to be able to allow to to provide the support at huge risk.
[00:35:35] Look, and there's certainly a balance. Technology is allowed us to do a whole bunch of things and that's that's good stuff.
[00:35:41] But hey, we'll never have this happen to us again, meaning our human beings are never going to be put in those situations again.
[00:35:47] And I love how this manual is that's what it's telling them.
[00:35:50] We're going to say read this book all by the way.
[00:35:52] This is what's happened and it's going, we know it's going to happen and I don't know where it's going to happen again for sure.
[00:35:58] And you know, you were pointing out that and this is, this is actually I'm going to point this out later.
[00:36:02] I think I'm going to point this out later as a shortfall to this book.
[00:36:06] But what you're pointing out right now is, you know, it's not about do this or do that because think about it.
[00:36:12] What if they told what what what tacos if they talked about so far?
[00:36:15] Zero. They've talked about zero tactics. What they've told you is get ready for mayhem.
[00:36:21] Yeah, learn the fundamental tactics and then get ready for total mayhem.
[00:36:25] That's what they've told you so far.
[00:36:26] Be creative. That's what they've said.
[00:36:28] They've used the word creativity like over and over again.
[00:36:31] That's what they're trying to get into your heads.
[00:36:34] They haven't even told you any tactics yet.
[00:36:37] So, and I think part of that reason is because there is a fundamental baseline that all Marines have that they assume.
[00:36:45] And so they don't really talk about it in here.
[00:36:48] And maybe that's the reason why I pictured as a little bit of a shortfall of, hey, this is tacky, which you've read the book,
[00:36:54] the last hundred yards, which gets very in the weeds on tactics like the actual maneuvering small elements.
[00:37:02] And this doesn't really have it.
[00:37:05] And I think the reason it doesn't really have it is because of the assumed knowledge of every Marine.
[00:37:12] Yeah, for sure. And I think to put some context around this, the Marine Corps knows and expects the actual tactics are going to be taught at school.
[00:37:22] School is school. Yeah, and what the Marine Corps, I think, is really trying to get the youngest junior Marines,
[00:37:29] whether it's a junior Marine leader and officer or lieutenant or or a young private, is what tactics means.
[00:37:35] Not the application of the tactic itself, but what does it mean to be part of the tactic for winning?
[00:37:41] And it's everything from understanding the noble creature of your weapon to the brutal nature of war.
[00:37:46] And they know that what's required is actually going to learn the tactics that you will apply as an artillery man or an infantry man or a supply officer or a legislation.
[00:37:55] But tactics make no mistake. That is the brutal application of war.
[00:38:01] You know what this reminds me of. So when we're working with, when we are working with a company at echelon front,
[00:38:09] it seems like oftentimes what people learn about business, like let's say they get their MBA from somewhere or they even if they've gone through some kind of a program, whatever kind of program.
[00:38:23] What they learn is actually the maneuvering on the battlefield. Like they learn how to, they learn that technical part of it.
[00:38:31] And the part that they don't often know is all this, oh, there's going to be complete and total man. Like things that you had no idea what, oh, by the way,
[00:38:40] Oh, leadership. What you need to do is surround yourself with good people. Okay. And by the way, half those good people are going to be crazy.
[00:38:47] The other half are going to be insane. Right. Like every, every, like that's what's missing. So what they focus on here is kind of what we focus on at echelon front, working with companies.
[00:38:59] Oh, like there's going to be things that aren't going the way you, the way they were going to be going on paper.
[00:39:06] When you made that higher, oh, when you opened that branch or whatever you did, it's interesting. No, it's, I think it's exactly the same for sure.
[00:39:16] Check, go back to the book. Military forces are complex systems consisting of individuals and equipment.
[00:39:23] They interact internally and externally and seemingly chaotic ways as clouselets wrote a battalion is made up of individuals. The least important of whom may chance to delay things or make them go wrong.
[00:39:38] That's what I was just saying. Like that sentence is so the least important person. Yes.
[00:39:46] Can literally destroy your play. Yes. Yes. Yes. As Marines, we believe in the, we believe the actions of single individuals can have great impact in combat and can also make things go right.
[00:39:59] For example, Sergeant John Baselone, as a machine gunner at Guadalcanal contributed, and this is a quote, in large measure, to the virtual annihilation of a Japanese regiment.
[00:40:13] He steadfastly manned his position in the face, repeated wave type assaults and was instrumental in breaking the enemies ability to press the attack, forcing them to retreat without achieving their goals.
[00:40:27] Mental of honor for that situation, Navy cross later, where when he was killed at Ewo G. But virtual annihilation of a Japanese regiment.
[00:40:40] Basel. Yeah. Legend.
[00:40:45] Battle is also influenced by a variety of external conditions. Directions and missions established by authorities terrain, whether attitudes of the civilian populace that often cannot be first seen.
[00:40:59] The outcome of combat can only be anticipated in terms of probabilities.
[00:41:06] All those things, authorities terrain, whether attitudes of this, like terrain. You're looking at it. You're looking at a map, a 150,000 map, or even a 1 to 24 map, which is twice as good.
[00:41:23] Sometimes that terrain doesn't even reflect anything that you've thought it was going to look like. Yeah. The people.
[00:41:31] That part of the people. I mean, that's the pace to think about that. I'd like you to consider the attitudes of the people in the application of this plan and the amount of chaos that's embedded just in that comment.
[00:41:43] It's it's staggering. And then again, we're linked with control to your people and have them go deal with that as it happens in a real time.
[00:41:51] Yeah. We're going to send you into a city.
[00:41:55] That's that's been under regime that's now got in surgeons in there. There's people getting killed. They're trying to survive. They're from a totally different culture.
[00:42:05] Consider that and just you know, plan around that would you just add that as one of the fact you're in the weather.
[00:42:10] Yeah.
[00:42:12] And that happens in the business world too, totally. You get things completely wrong.
[00:42:17] Get things completely wrong. Oh, this will put. I'm sure everyone's going to love this new product we're making.
[00:42:22] No, no one likes it doesn't sell anything. Or I was working with a company and they made something.
[00:42:31] And they anticipated selling between two and four per shop that we're going into a massive spread of shops, a very large chain of shops.
[00:42:44] And they made this something they were anticipating selling between two and four per shop and they ended up selling on average 34 per shop per day.
[00:42:55] Like crazy. Who predicted that? No one.
[00:43:00] Then they're spending $20 million on a new factory immediately.
[00:43:06] Check back to the book. Technology also affects the tactical environment, but not always as anticipated technology may reduce uncertainty.
[00:43:17] And it may also increase it.
[00:43:20] The Spartans organized into failinuses attacked in close formation, making it easy to see and control once forces today.
[00:43:27] Tactical formations are less well defined as distances between elements have increased, complicating command and control in.
[00:43:35] Increased weapons, lethality, communications, range and tax comability, causes to disperse forces over greater distances.
[00:43:43] War is more fluid as a result of technology, while the machine gun bogged down the warfare in World War I, tactical innovations like the tank, the airplane and the aircraft carrier, made warfare more rapid and free flowing in World War II.
[00:43:59] So that's what you just talked about with technology, the GPS guided bomb.
[00:44:06] Yeah, and as a pilot, I was on pretty much in the leading edge of tactical evolution in aviation.
[00:44:14] And it was awesome.
[00:44:15] There was some weird you guys start flying night vision goggles.
[00:44:18] So I have a very similar story to you. I have my first night vision goggle flight in the summer of 1998.
[00:44:24] And they were pretty new at the time. And I, so get this. I go on my, we do like a simulator. We do a brief. I learn how it works in a, in like a dark room and everything, but you can't replicate it until you get an airplane.
[00:44:36] And the first airplane you have an instructor in the back, we get in the airplane, go to the whole thing.
[00:44:40] We get airborne route here. So I think California, I have to talk, talk off out of an L Toro before it close just over the water.
[00:44:47] And I'm looking up and I'm looking to all the airplanes at LAX lined up hundreds of miles away. I can see this with my night vision goggles. And I asked the instructor, hey, is this pretty common is like, well, I can't actually see what you're looking at.
[00:45:00] So how come he says, I'm not wearing my goggles.
[00:45:03] And this was kind of a really old, really kind of senior crusty guy. I think he was originally an A6 pilot, the transition he goes, I don't like him.
[00:45:11] And I remember I was a really young student at times, so I certainly wasn't going to have, I'm just, you know, Roger that and go to that.
[00:45:17] It didn't really occurred to me till years later talking, you know, conversation we had about when the seals are trying to introduce goggles and guys like, hey, we don't need that kind of stuff.
[00:45:25] Yeah.
[00:45:26] And just thinking how, being in it, and like, that is the most insane thing I've ever heard.
[00:45:32] But, but, but just something to think about, I have been on flights.
[00:45:36] It happened actually twice once in a combat mission in Afghanistan where my wingman took off and he didn't have his bracket.
[00:45:43] He forgot his bracket that attaches the helmet or you put the goggles on, so we reached down to get the night vision goggles to mount him on his helmet, airborne.
[00:45:49] He's like, dude, I don't have my bracket, which means no goggles period.
[00:45:54] So we're going to go to seven hours without him having night vision goggles.
[00:45:57] And he was kind of paralyzed by that.
[00:45:59] Oh, yeah.
[00:46:00] And I was like, thank you. Yeah. And so he had put himself in this technology and then the moment that technology technological thing he'd been us cut, cousin who was gone, he didn't know what to do.
[00:46:10] I was like, hey, hang man, we're putting a couple of risk mitigated, we'll just somehow to Delta and we'll couple of very easy things we could do.
[00:46:16] But it was hard for him.
[00:46:18] And that the technology in it of itself doesn't solve your problems unless you can, you know how to use it and react when it's not giving you what you want.
[00:46:26] And I've seen that in airplanes all the time that all of a sudden GPS goes down in an airplane.
[00:46:32] And what you want to do is let's just go home like, we can't go home.
[00:46:36] We're here to support it.
[00:46:38] And I've seen guys get paralyzed by losing that technological thing that they've come accustomed to.
[00:46:43] And that's kind of the beauty of whether it's is saying here is, hey, there's a basic thing that's going to go on here that you have to be able to execute.
[00:46:50] They can't replicate the invasion of Tarlah being pinned down and watching a regiment get decimated.
[00:46:55] You can't replicate that in combat.
[00:46:56] And you can't replicate telling a guy get up in a hail of gunfire and lead your men.
[00:47:01] But you can actually, you can actually get people to recognize that that's what you need to do in those situations.
[00:47:06] And that's why those Marines actually got up and did that.
[00:47:09] This is the contrast in credible, the dichotomy of that is incredible to think about.
[00:47:14] Yeah, the technology thing, the GPS, you know, like, there wasn't GPS when I first got in.
[00:47:21] There was, but it wasn't a feasible thing to use because it was slow and it just didn't work.
[00:47:27] And I remember getting told, hey, we don't, with this piece of equipment, we can know exactly where we are.
[00:47:32] And it weighed 28 pounds.
[00:47:34] And I said, hey, I know exactly where I am and I have a map and compass.
[00:47:37] Yeah.
[00:47:38] So next question, let's move on.
[00:47:40] And there's definitely our guys that have become rely on GPS.
[00:47:45] They do not know how to do land-nav and land-nav is an absolutely critical skill.
[00:47:49] If you know land-nav, you don't need to look at your GPS.
[00:47:51] In fact, if you know it, well, you don't even need to look at your map.
[00:47:54] You remember the terrain features, you're keeping track of your pace, and you know exactly where you are.
[00:47:59] I didn't use a GPS or a map in a Romadi after the second week inside the city.
[00:48:04] Except I'm very rare occasion.
[00:48:06] But every, speeder is jolly, I knew where I was because, well, we did it all the time,
[00:48:11] but that was actually, if I had to say, hang on one second, let me orient myself to this,
[00:48:16] it's over.
[00:48:18] It's like, I'm like, I'm gonna break out my GPS and see where we are.
[00:48:20] So those fundamental skills are actually required to be able to take advantage of the technology.
[00:48:25] When I looked back at my first deployment to Iraq, once we were in Romadi for like a month,
[00:48:31] I realized, because my first deployment we'd be going all over the place, you know,
[00:48:34] we did a lot of work in Baghdad, but Baghdad is huge.
[00:48:36] Right.
[00:48:37] And we wouldn't do the same neighborhood, even, you know, maybe we do the same neighborhood one or two times.
[00:48:42] But most of times, hey, we just never been here before.
[00:48:44] And I realized how much better I should have known the terrain.
[00:48:51] Like I would be looking at the battle map going into on my first deployment,
[00:48:55] we'd be going into some random town.
[00:48:57] And I'd be, okay, here's a major landmark, there's a Moscow over here.
[00:48:59] There's a bridge over here, cool, I got that.
[00:49:03] Oh, yeah, this building looks pretty particular.
[00:49:05] Our target building is right next to that building.
[00:49:07] So, okay, so I kind of have that level of familiarization.
[00:49:10] But I wouldn't know it like what we knew.
[00:49:14] When in Romadi where you're looking at the same thing all the time.
[00:49:17] And that's how you should know the terrain.
[00:49:19] That's how you should study the terrain.
[00:49:20] And then when something doesn't fit in the way it is, the way it's supposed to,
[00:49:24] then you will recognize, like if you're looking at a rural environment,
[00:49:28] because rural environments, I think are tougher to read.
[00:49:31] And I guess clearly they are tougher to read than city environments.
[00:49:33] Although you can get turned around in the city as well.
[00:49:35] But, you know, a streamer, you know, you hit a little stream that wasn't on the map.
[00:49:39] And you think you're at the big one in Bob obala.
[00:49:41] You can just get pushed up.
[00:49:43] But if you are tracking it, then you can, you can make sense of it if you studied it more.
[00:49:49] So be careful of completely relying on technology.
[00:49:54] It can, is not always your friend.
[00:49:56] Back to the book.
[00:49:57] Future battles likely to become even more chaotic.
[00:50:00] Although combat in Operation Desert Storm was between fairly well-defined forces in a well-defined space.
[00:50:08] The forces in operating areas in Vietnam, Somalia, and Grenada were far less well-defined.
[00:50:13] Enemy units were dispersed and often hidden within this civilian population,
[00:50:17] making them hard, hard to detect and harder to target.
[00:50:21] They converge at a time in place of their choosing.
[00:50:24] Future opponents may choose to fight in this manner to offset our overwhelming superiority in firepower.
[00:50:31] Little floor shadowing.
[00:50:33] Yes, they may choose to fight that way.
[00:50:36] Continue on this chaotic environment.
[00:50:39] Also brings opportunity.
[00:50:42] Classwrites wrote about combat, no other human activity, is so continuously bound up with chance.
[00:50:58] The challenge is to recognize opportunity when it occurs in the midst of chaos and uncertainty and
[00:51:03] the season to obtain a clear unambiguous victory.
[00:51:07] When viewed through time, even the most chaotic of systems may reveal recurring patterns that may look that may then be exploited.
[00:51:16] The experienced tactician will look for these recurring patterns that can be exploited to advantage.
[00:51:23] I mean, where is that not true?
[00:51:26] That statement.
[00:51:28] I mean, I talk about the Udolup all the time in aviation and business too.
[00:51:36] You see the people when you're working with folks and it's their first time.
[00:51:39] Maybe they've gotten their first team and they introduce themselves in the first couple weeks and very merely things don't go the way they want.
[00:51:47] And they're on their heels and they don't know how to react.
[00:51:50] It's not because they're a bad leader.
[00:51:52] It's not because they don't possess.
[00:51:53] It's never seen it before.
[00:51:55] If you've never seen it before, a lot of times you don't know what to do.
[00:51:58] So you freeze or you do or you do nothing or you make the wrong decision.
[00:52:03] But it's really that sense of being overwhelmed.
[00:52:05] And right next to my piece of time that I've been doing for 10, 15 years.
[00:52:08] Okay, hey man, I've seen this a thousand times and they react completely differently.
[00:52:13] I've never seen a place where that isn't true.
[00:52:15] I mean, that experience of doing things over and over again to find a pattern go, this is how I think this is going to work out.
[00:52:22] That's what let you go.
[00:52:24] Do it because you can anticipate what that outcome is going to be because you've seen it so many times.
[00:52:29] Yeah, and there's.
[00:52:32] There's a way of looking at things and overlaying your knowledge that allows you to see things that other people don't see.
[00:52:44] And it's hard to do and not many people do it.
[00:52:49] Not many people take what they're the knowledge that they have and overlay it onto what they're looking at.
[00:52:56] And you can't.
[00:52:57] What you can't do is you can't let what you're overlaying block what's behind it.
[00:53:02] You have to overlay it has to be transparent because you have to be able to see through it.
[00:53:06] You have to be able to see the changes.
[00:53:08] But if you can take your experience and you can overlay it onto what's happening, it it gives you this massive advantage.
[00:53:18] It's a huge advantage.
[00:53:21] We talk about when flying having a mental roll of X of literally a billion different,
[00:53:27] but almost like screen captures of what you're seeing out your windscreen in your world that you're looking at as a pilot.
[00:53:32] And having.
[00:53:34] However much experience you have back that under head to go, I've seen that before.
[00:53:38] I can pull from my memory or my recollection of things I've thought about kind of overlay that just like you said and look through it.
[00:53:44] Almost transparently ago, these are the same and it doesn't guarantee that you know exactly what's going to happen next.
[00:53:50] But it narrows down to such a small margin of what the likely outcomes are going to be.
[00:53:55] That you're that's how you start thinking ahead of your opponent or the person even next to you is being able to pull that experience and say,
[00:54:02] I've seen this and I think this is what's going to happen because of all of those other things.
[00:54:06] But just like you said to you don't get to freeze time.
[00:54:08] You don't, there's no pause button there. Airplanes are moving hundreds of miles an hour dynamically and the guys that do that really well pull those pictures out and go,
[00:54:16] I've seen this and they're making moves and you're looking at how, how did you know to do that?
[00:54:20] And it's exactly what you just described.
[00:54:22] I was at the training command, I was running training and we got tasked with training the guys in a new mission.
[00:54:31] And so we get we task the guys with this new mission and they come up with a plan to execute this new mission.
[00:54:39] And so whenever we were taking the guys on a field training exercise, they would give the brief to their task unit or their troop or their pertune.
[00:54:47] And you know us training contrary would sit there and we take notes and say, okay, this is a bad part of the plan.
[00:54:53] Hey, you should have thought about this. Hey, this won't really work.
[00:54:55] You know, so we'd give them critiques.
[00:54:58] And then, and you know, I would go last, you know what I mean? Because I was the guy in charge.
[00:55:02] So they let me go last. So everyone would kind of, you know, there'd be two or three guys that would kind of pick a part to plan.
[00:55:06] And then I would go and mention maybe, you know, four or five other things, right?
[00:55:09] Because my guys would cover most of them.
[00:55:11] So these guys get up and their brief, they brief this new mission and how they're going to execute this new mission.
[00:55:17] And they go, okay, you know, they wrap up their mission and now we got the leadership in there to debrief them on their on their brief.
[00:55:25] And my guys like didn't have anything.
[00:55:30] And so they get to me and I was like, okay, here's what's going on. Boom, boom.
[00:55:34] And I just rattled off like 19 things.
[00:55:37] And the senior and the senior and the senior guy that was there, we got done and we walked out.
[00:55:42] And he was like, when you leave, no one's going to be able to do this.
[00:55:45] And I was like, no man, it's just, but when I think about what just occurred, what occurred during that time,
[00:55:51] all I was doing was taking what I knew already, what my senior and let's say I knew as well.
[00:55:55] I just overlayed it, he didn't overlay it. It didn't look the same.
[00:55:59] So he wasn't quite sure. So I just overlayed what I knew and said, oh, yeah, here's here's what doesn't make sense.
[00:56:04] Because guess what? Cover moves to apply.
[00:56:06] Decentralized command still applies.
[00:56:08] We want to keep it simple. That's still applies.
[00:56:10] Prioritized next, keep still applies.
[00:56:12] Who, that's those things, the terrain taking advantage of the terrain, that still applies.
[00:56:17] So even though the mission has a totally different name, the fundamental principles don't change.
[00:56:22] So if you can take an overlay what you know, you're going to do well.
[00:56:26] And that's actually, that's actually what good leaders do.
[00:56:30] What good leaders, they take what they know about humans.
[00:56:34] I'll have work with a guy like that before.
[00:56:36] You know what's funny? We do our roleplaying people and one of the characters that we talk about in our roleplay at echelon front.
[00:56:42] One of the characters that we talk about is
[00:56:45] Grumpy old Arnold, right?
[00:56:49] Grumpy old Arnold, who's been doing this for 25 years and he's really good and he's really respected.
[00:56:54] And he likes to do things his way.
[00:56:58] And he doesn't like, you know, he doesn't like being told what to do.
[00:57:02] And whenever we bring up this character that I made up, but of course, like I made it up, but everybody says,
[00:57:08] Oh, this is based on my computer.
[00:57:10] Yeah, we do. So everybody has an Arnold.
[00:57:12] And then we go to the next roleplay. And the next roleplay is, you know, this guy who's, you know, young buck.
[00:57:18] And what's young buck like young buck is super fired up.
[00:57:21] And he's just ready to go get after it.
[00:57:23] But he also doesn't like following what the rules are because the rules are impeding his progress.
[00:57:28] And if it goes, oh, yeah, we got young buck over here.
[00:57:31] Where we're actually, it's so funny like at the master walk around with people to go, this is young.
[00:57:35] Oh, yeah, the years are older.
[00:57:37] You know, it's always funny. It's always good. But what good leaders do is they take now. Now, when someone says, hey, this is Arnold or hey, we have an Arnold.
[00:57:47] That don't it's not exactly the same, but you can certainly overlay some of the knowledge that you have on to that person.
[00:57:53] You can't overlay it completely because that's a mistake as a leader.
[00:57:56] It's a mistake to treat Arnold this Arnold the same as that Arnold because they have the same some similar characteristics, but they're not the same.
[00:58:04] And what you did with this one, may not necessarily work with that one. You're going to have to modulate it a little bit.
[00:58:12] And so what you do as a leader if you can take and you can overlay your knowledge onto situations that you haven't seen before, but you recognize what similarities there are and how to how to handle those scenarios.
[00:58:26] That's going to make you infinitely better.
[00:58:28] Totally.
[00:58:29] And the thousands of flights that I had in my career, no two were exactly the same. I never had two flights that were exactly the same.
[00:58:35] And that's what any insert any job, anything we've ever done, nothing is exactly the same.
[00:58:41] And I've had that same experience of people saying, this is that guy that you're, you're just, this is our Arnold or this is our young buck.
[00:58:49] But if you, if as a leader, you start getting more and more success.
[00:58:54] You kind of racking up winds and you start to get, figure that out. And you think that you know how everything is going to play out. That's a killer too.
[00:59:02] And we had in aviation, we have, we track miss operates, which obviously you know, expensive airplanes and airplanes crashes catastrophic.
[00:59:12] And there's two spikes in a person's career in the miss operates. And one is about the 200 to 300 hour range, which is really, really does not need to fly an airplane.
[00:59:20] But it stands a reason. A lot of people crash airplanes when they're first on the out of fly.
[00:59:24] And then after about 500 hours at miss operates falls really low.
[00:59:28] And then there's a very, very low miss operate. And then it spikes again.
[00:59:33] And it spikes it about the 2000 hour mark. And that's a really experienced squadron commander kind of level really experienced.
[00:59:39] And it's because they fall into that trap as they, I've seen it all.
[00:59:43] And the reality is that some of those things never change.
[00:59:46] The principles, they never change. But the outcomes are always moving around. And that buck, the tier, it's different than buck over there.
[00:59:52] And when you get complacent and think, I've got this figured out, it's same thing happens in aviation.
[00:59:56] That's where the miss apps go up again. And it's the same thing for leaders recognizing that all these problems are different.
[01:00:02] All these problems are the same. But you do not know the outcome. You do not know the outcome.
[01:00:08] That's, that, that, that is like a fire in my brain. Every problem that I look at, I'm simultaneously looking at it.
[01:00:18] At the same time I'm saying, okay, I think I've seen this before.
[01:00:20] I also have a louder voice, my head that's saying, you don't actually know. You don't actually know anything.
[01:00:25] You should actually just be quiet. Yes. And then try and figure this thing out. Because you don't know.
[01:00:29] So that's definitely right. And you can see when people get to that 2000 hour mark, they start to think they've got it all figured out.
[01:00:37] And that's not going to be good. Overlay your knowledge.
[01:00:43] Next section is called, how we view combat and how we fight.
[01:00:49] How we view the combat environment in large part determines how we operate in it.
[01:00:54] There are two competing views of combat.
[01:00:58] Some see it in simple terms as if the battle and the environment represented a closed mechanical system.
[01:01:05] This deterministic view argues that combat is predictable.
[01:01:09] Among the advocates of this view are military theorists who seek prescriptive rules for battle and analysts who predict battle outcomes based upon force ratio.
[01:01:23] The other view is that combat is chaotic and uncertain.
[01:01:29] In this probabilistic view, battle is seen as complex phenomenon in which participants interact with one another and respond and adapt to their environment.
[01:01:40] The probabilistic view point sees combat as unpredictable.
[01:01:44] The distinction between these two views of combat are important. They drive the choices commanders make in combat.
[01:01:54] So this is again. I was with a new client the other day, Ashland Front and meeting the CEO for the first time.
[01:02:06] And it was interesting. He was asking me in a very positive way, not a negative way. He was asking me in a very curious way.
[01:02:15] Basically, the question was, what do you teach? What are you teaching that other people don't teach?
[01:02:26] What is it? How? There's this high-demand signal at my company for you to be here.
[01:02:32] I get it. That's why you're here. I appreciate it. What are you talking about? What can I expect to see?
[01:02:38] When I ended up going and doing the introduction to the laws of combat and extreme ownership. That's when he kind of, when I got to know that he said, oh,
[01:02:48] I think this is what people from a leadership perspective, if you have a deterministic viewpoint of leadership, hey, when the person does this, oh, here's the prescription for that.
[01:03:04] It doesn't work. It doesn't work. And yet, that's an easier thing to sell. Right? If I'm trying to sell you my leadership instruction, the easiest thing to read is, oh, what problems do you have?
[01:03:14] Okay, well, I'll just tell you what the prescription for that type of problem is. The problem of that is it's a lie. It doesn't work.
[01:03:21] Yeah. It doesn't work at all.
[01:03:25] We've been working with companies for the last couple of years and one of the things that a lot of companies are doing with us growth.
[01:03:35] There are different in the leaders that have these two different points of view. And the ones that think they have, they kind of have it all figured out this prescriptive mindset. There's nothing in them that feels like they need to push and relinquish control down in the organization because they think they have the template and they might have small started small.
[01:03:52] They can control over them. It's a very, it's centralized. It's at their core. They're the leader and they did control things when there was 27 people and they saw them every day and they could behave with it worked awesome. Yeah, it's really, you can do that with a small group, especially the beginning. It's actually not that hard to kind of control 15 20 people.
[01:04:10] As it grows, it's those leaders that think that everything is predetermined by this matrix, this if this, then that that whole approach. They're the ones that are struggling the most and ironically, you don't see it in the beginning, but the ones that are willing to decentralize everything and give those the ones that actually don't have nearly as much problem with the growth.
[01:04:29] Not because they know it's all figured out, it's because they know that there's no way I can figure this out and I can't solve any of these problems by myself. And the best thing they can do is get their folks. When you have a problem, here are some guidance. Here's some things we do. Here's some foundational things that we do with this company, but I actually don't have the answer for you. As a matter of fact, I am not as good as you are at knowing this particular situation because you're living it in every day. I'm off over here doing other things.
[01:04:54] Leaders that recognize that everything is chaotic. Nothing is predetermined. No matter how a good or experienced they are, they're the ones that are the most successful and the ones that think it's all figured out.
[01:05:04] They try to control everything and they're the ones that are most likely to fail. And from the outside when you walk in you look and go, oh oh oh. All you have to do is let this person make that decision on on their own and it's going to work out. And if it doesn't, he'll learn from it and he'll figure out the next time.
[01:05:20] It's easy to see from the outside. You see these two different leaders. It's not just common. It's everywhere.
[01:05:25] It's a different approach. It's absolutely everywhere. It's absolutely everywhere. Prescriptive leadership. I'm putting that one in my notebook. We're not selling prescriptions.
[01:05:36] There's not one health leadership health. Continual on the deterministic view of combat often leads to centralized control.
[01:05:45] Hmm. It can be a recipe for micro management, stifling the initiative supportants need to deal with combat's inevitable uncertainties.
[01:05:53] Overly prescriptive orders and plans inhibit a unit's ability to cope with uncertainty and change. Eventually the unit inflexible and unable to adapt may be overwhelmed by events.
[01:06:03] And I'll change that may be overwhelmed to will be. How's that for deterministic? If you have that, if you have that micro management, you will end up in a bad situation.
[01:06:14] The probabilistic view of combat recognizes that the complexity and uncertainty of war leads to a more decentralized approach to control.
[01:06:24] We place greater trust in subordinates to achieve the desired result through the use of mission orders and commanders intent. Subordinates are able to handle unforeseen situations and exploit opportunities that arise.
[01:06:36] Marine court tactics are based on the probabilistic view of combat must be shocking for some people to hear that.
[01:06:43] Yeah, I bet that they haven't told any different people. That did they just think oh, the.
[01:06:48] You know, you're in charge. The big boss in the comment and tell everyone what to do.
[01:06:52] We must be able to cope with uncertainty and operate in an ever changing combat environment. We must be flexible and responsive to changes in the situation. There are no fixed rules.
[01:07:05] That can be applied automatically and every situation is different.
[01:07:09] That's that's so legit picture that scene you describe it being in Tarlah and all those and look around your squad leaders gone.
[01:07:15] Your fire team isn't there anymore. You're battalion commanders gone none of the things that you anticipated prepared or trained for.
[01:07:21] They don't even exist anymore. They're not even there.
[01:07:23] What are you going to do now when in this predetermined pre-ordained coordinated plan? It doesn't work though.
[01:07:30] Yeah, that is.
[01:07:32] The the the things that you expected are literally gone. Your plan is is completely evaporated. It is nothing.
[01:07:45] The plan that you had is completely and utterly gone.
[01:07:50] And if you don't do anything about that, you will be too very soon.
[01:07:58] There are no fixed rules.
[01:08:04] As one tactics manual put it more than a half century ago, the leader who frantically strives to remember what someone else did in some slightly similar situation has already set his feet on a well-traveled road to ruin.
[01:08:19] That's actually from the book and for tree and battle.
[01:08:22] This is where you have to. This is why that overlay that you put. It's it can't block what you see.
[01:08:30] It's an overlay and for those of you that don't know speaking of speaking of just going old school in the old days when we used to have maps and not these incredibly advanced software programs that put overlay.
[01:08:43] They're so called overlays, but you put a transparent what was that piece of puzzle.
[01:08:49] That's like a transparency and you would draw little things on it.
[01:08:53] And you say, okay, this is here's the terrain. Here's where the target's going to be.
[01:08:56] And you can put another overlay that showed the enemy suspected any musicians and you put another overlay that showed your friendly positions.
[01:09:01] So that's what I'm talking about. You can see through it. If you block it out.
[01:09:06] That's not going to work.
[01:09:09] Leaders must remember that there are no fixed rules and no precise checklists, but there are bounds.
[01:09:15] We're getting the economy. That is why successful leaders study training exercise their minds to improve tactical proficiency.
[01:09:24] We study examples of successes and failures not to emulate someone else's scheme, but to increase our own tactical understanding and competence.
[01:09:33] Why do we do that? Why do we study train and exercise?
[01:09:39] It's so that we can put those overlays in our mind and then we can increase our own tactical understanding and competence.
[01:09:48] Next section, Marine Cortactics. The successful execution of Marine Cortactics hinges on the thoughtful application of a number of tactical concepts,
[01:09:57] so as to achieve success on the battlefield.
[01:10:00] The among these concepts are achieving a decision, gaining advantage, being faster, adapting, cooperating and exploiting success.
[01:10:11] Each of these concepts is discussed in detail later in this publication.
[01:10:16] Creative and practical employment of these ideas throughout the planning and execution of tactics leads to success.
[01:10:22] Creative is number one, that's going first. That's going first. Creative and practical employment of these ideas throughout the planning and execution of these tactics leads to success.
[01:10:32] These concepts are not standalone ideas, but are to be combined so as to achieve an effect that is greater than their separate sum.
[01:10:40] Part of the art and science of tactics lies in knowing where and when to apply these concepts and which combinations to use to achieve the desired effect.
[01:10:49] Often to somebody asks you, what law of combat do you think is most important for us?
[01:10:55] And it's like, this one is really important, but guess what? You can't get one without the other.
[01:11:00] They're all woven together.
[01:11:04] The number one definition of these concepts, the number and definition of these combat concepts are not fixed and their order of presentation does not indicate their value.
[01:11:14] The questions may find in their studies new or slightly different ideas that may be just as important. These ideas are presented in this publication so that readers will think about how to achieve success on the battlefield.
[01:11:27] One of the Marines at the Basics School and you went through a freight to use the word create.
[01:11:31] I guarantee you, I guarantee, because the word I'm telling you, they said think for sure.
[01:11:37] And that's what they meant to be creative. Yeah, fine, the word is the word, but that's exactly what they're getting at us. The answer isn't in this book.
[01:11:45] The answer isn't that we're going to go do one week of combat and the defense.
[01:11:50] And all of a sudden you've got all the life experience you need to be defensive and kind of, you have to think.
[01:11:56] These concepts help to provide a framework for developing a tactical mindset that has long been the hallmark of marine leaders for corporal through general.
[01:12:06] And here's the conclusion to tactics.
[01:12:10] Tactile excellence is the hallmark of a marine core leader. We fight in winning combat through our mastery of both the art and science of tactics.
[01:12:19] The art of tactics involves the creative.
[01:12:23] Once again, and innovative, once again, use of maneuver warfare concepts while the science of tactics requires skill and basic war fighting techniques and procedures.
[01:12:32] Yeah, because that's face it. If you don't have the, if you don't know the techniques, you can't apply them creatively. You don't even know them.
[01:12:40] That's right.
[01:12:41] It is our responsibility as marine leaders to work continuously to develop our own tactical proficiency and that of our Marines.
[01:12:49] Understanding the concepts presented in this publication provides a foundation for that development.
[01:12:55] Boom.
[01:12:58] Chapter two.
[01:13:00] That was one of chapter three.
[01:13:02] By the way, that's one chapter.
[01:13:04] Awesome.
[01:13:05] And we're staring at it over an hour. That's awesome.
[01:13:08] Get some chapter two, achieving a decision.
[01:13:12] It follows then that the leader who would, and this is a quote,
[01:13:16] It follows then that the leader who would become a competent tactician must first close his mind to the alluring formula that well-meaning people offer in the name of victory.
[01:13:28] To master his difficult art, he must learn to cut to the heart of a situation, recognize its decisive elements and basis course of action on these.
[01:13:39] And that once again, that's from this book, Infantry and Battle which infantry and battle is an awesome book.
[01:13:44] And what's really interesting about infantry and battle, and I'm going to cover on the podcast probably, I don't know. I've got it in the queue.
[01:13:50] But what's interesting about infantry and battle of the book is it was written in 1939 or it came out in 1939.
[01:14:00] So it's not based on what we learned in World War II.
[01:14:05] It's what we did in World War II. It's based on World War I.
[01:14:09] And like these things work and these things didn't work.
[01:14:12] They don't say it that way, but that's basically what it is. It's a great book.
[01:14:17] And there's some, and this is, when you see a, when you see a leader do this cut to the heart of a situation, recognize its decisive elements and basis course of action on these.
[01:14:28] That's like the most pleasurable thing to see as an observer or as a trooper.
[01:14:34] When you see someone go, hey, here's what's going on. This is what we're going to do.
[01:14:37] A lot of people will be talking and all of a sudden the leader will go, hey, this is what's happening. This is what we're going to do.
[01:14:43] And you go, thank God for this guy.
[01:14:46] Going on, another quote.
[01:14:50] We must be ruthlessly opportunistic, actively seeking out signs of weakness against which we'll direct all available combat power.
[01:14:59] When the decisive opportunity arrive, we must exploit it fully and aggressively committing every ounce of combat power we can muster and pushing ourselves to the limits of exhaustion.
[01:15:09] Which is the way you should actually live your life as well, no big deal. That's from FM FM 1.
[01:15:18] We're fighting.
[01:15:20] Which I don't know when I covered that on this podcast, but it was like podcast, five or something like that.
[01:15:26] So yes, ruthlessly opportunistic fully and aggressively.
[01:15:32] That's what I'm talking about.
[01:15:34] And also recognizing that the number of times you're going to get that opportunity to exploit something to win, it might be once in a battle.
[01:15:43] Yeah, it might be once in that window may last four minutes.
[01:15:47] Right, it may last an hour, it may last a day, but it might be gone.
[01:15:50] Yeah.
[01:15:51] And when you see it, you're going to have to step and you're going to have to make that decision and there's going to be risking that decision.
[01:15:58] You're not guaranteed to now come in any way, shape or form, but here's the counterpoint. If you don't maneuver well, that opportunity can be lost.
[01:16:07] Yeah. And this is a, there's a huge discussion about the dichotomy, that don't use the word dichotomy, but they definitely talk about it all the time.
[01:16:15] Just because we're saying you got to be opportunistic and take advantage of those things. That doesn't mean that you just run to your death.
[01:16:20] Does mean charging to every bunker that you see because you think it's the decisive bunker.
[01:16:24] No, we talk about this all the time. You even think, you know, the dichotomy that comes in mind here, the, the being brave, but not foolhardy.
[01:16:32] Yeah.
[01:16:33] And then you even talked about it in Q&A recently about recognizing that being default aggressive.
[01:16:39] Obviously, that's a really good thing, but you can't be like that all the time, because if you're overaggressive and you've
[01:16:45] been wrong opportunity or you're actually so aggressive that you haven't had a chance to bring all your forces to bear when actually is most effective. That's everybody's destructive is being so disconnected or being so
[01:16:58] aggressive that you missed those opportunities as well. And the answer like you said, it's, it's in that middle and just saying be aggressive. That doesn't solve your problems. You actually have to know when to do that.
[01:17:21] And if you're going to get around that, I had to say that I was wrong. You meant you were wrong. Yeah, that I was wrong. Like this, this isn't right all the time. It's not always good to be aggressive. It's not always good to go forward. It's like all those things. It's not always good to step up and lead all the time.
[01:17:35] No, actually it's not. There's sometimes when you should follow like for me to sit there and I remember it was one of those situations. This is what we just talked about.
[01:17:42] There was some time where I was watching something unfold and the thought was, well, they should have been more aggressive. And I was like, that's what I want to say because that's what big tough Jako says.
[01:17:57] But guess what? That's not the right answer. The right answer is actually that would have been the wrong time to be aggressive and they actually did a good job by sitting back and letting that situation develop.
[01:18:06] So what is this? And I had to think about this in my head. No, what is going on here? Oh, because you can't be too aggressive. You can't be aggressive all the time. Oh, and by the way, there's every trait that you look at. Yeah, there's a counter to it. And if you go too far with any of them, you're wrong.
[01:18:22] For sure.
[01:18:23] And that's why the things that we teach, we don't teach the answers, I was saying, oh, your answer is BD, fault aggressive. That by itself doesn't work. So you actually have to understand not just what it means.
[01:18:37] But when to do that and know that there is actually an unlimited to doing that, it will become ineffective if you're just, I'm aggressive. That's how I lead get on board.
[01:18:48] And and that you lead your team to to destruction because you're thinking, I got to be aggressive. Yes, you do, but you have to have to know when to be aggressive.
[01:18:59] And actually sometimes the best thing is to be the exact opposite of that and let the situation unfold until you see that opportunity.
[01:19:05] Yeah, and I mean, it's flanking, right, flanking is an aggressive movement, but it's not as aggressive as charging up the middle, right?
[01:19:17] That's all, it's all, it's all, it's all, it's all, it's all, it's all, it's more aggressive.
[01:19:19] And it gives you credit, but it's not going to work out better.
[01:19:23] That's right. And then the other funny thing from a leadership perspective is, hey, am I, am I being weak?
[01:19:34] I'm weak. It might be fearful if I don't, if I'm not aggressive.
[01:19:38] But here's the answer. And this is a real simple way to look at it. When you, when you deal with another human being, are you building the relationship or are you breaking it? Are you, are you moving it forward? Are you moving it back?
[01:19:50] Yeah, that's the question. And the answer is the answer. The answer is, if you, if what, if I'm going to have a conversation with you and it's going to move our relationship forward,
[01:20:00] that's probably the right answer. If I'm going to have a conversation with you and it's going to move our relationship backwards, that's probably not the right answer.
[01:20:06] So if you, if you, if you came up with a bad plan and my approach with you on that is, hey, Dave, your plan sucked.
[01:20:17] And I don't think you're cut out for this.
[01:20:19] Or hey, your plan sucks and I don't, I'm going to, you have to use my plan now, which, both of those have a negative outcome.
[01:20:28] Both of those you're looking at me going, okay, so Jocquit doesn't trust me. He doesn't think my plan is any good.
[01:20:33] Instead of me going, hey, man, can you explain to me, I want to understand how you're going to execute this thing, because it's important for me to understand what you're thinking.
[01:20:44] So I can give you the support that you need.
[01:20:46] Can you, can you kind of walk me through your, your thought process and how this is going to go down?
[01:20:51] Well, that, what does that do with our relationship? Now you're going to explain something to me.
[01:20:55] I'm going to subtly and smoothly point out the little mistakes in the plan that you had and I'm going to actually let you come to the conclusion.
[01:21:04] You're the one that's going to be telling me that you know what has gone about it.
[01:21:07] I'm actually going to change this a little bit and then I go, oh, wow, I would have never caught that and boom, all the sudden, our relationship got stronger.
[01:21:16] So yes, there's a dichotomy.
[01:21:20] There is.
[01:21:21] And there's actually, there actually is a time sometimes that the frontal assault does work.
[01:21:27] That's why there's a frontal assault. Absolutely.
[01:21:29] If it never worked, it wouldn't be a thing. Absolutely.
[01:21:32] But the time and the place to do that, first of all, it's a lot less common than people think.
[01:21:38] The frontal assault should be the exception by a huge margin.
[01:21:41] But there are times that the frontal assault works.
[01:21:43] And sometimes when the frontal assault with another person, the times that it is most effective,
[01:21:48] is when you've spent a lifetime and built a lifetime of a relationship that you can go, Dave, this is stupid.
[01:21:54] We're not doing it and I go, okay, yeah.
[01:21:57] And I trust you and I don't get defensive and I don't shrink back down because I'm caching in or you're caching in on a lifetime of not having done it.
[01:22:05] If you over and over again, I'm I'm going to just roll over when you say that and it's going to make it worse for me, but there are times that actually the frontal assault does work.
[01:22:12] For sure. And it only works when you've not done it a thousand times that the one time it happens that guy is willing to listen to what's being said.
[01:22:20] Yeah. And there's there's other times where the frontal assault is good.
[01:22:24] And the frontal assault can be good because you're setting up other avenues of approach.
[01:22:30] Yeah. You can actually follow. Yeah. Yeah.
[01:22:32] Yeah. So there's I've used that approach sometime where I've gone ballistic about something that wasn't a big deal,
[01:22:38] but what I was really doing was prepping the battlefield for something else. So yeah, there's maneuvers that have to happen.
[01:22:43] For sure.
[01:22:45] Moving back to the book.
[01:22:47] Tactics is the employment of units in combat.
[01:22:51] The objective of tactics is to achieve military success through a decision in battle.
[01:22:55] Using tactical actions to do it's to achieve a decision is central to marine core tactics.
[01:23:01] In the past military forces have also have often won only incremental gains when they thought when they saw victory taking a heal here or a town there,
[01:23:13] pushing the front for a few kilometers or adding to the body count.
[01:23:17] Sometimes these incremental gains were the result of a competent enemy or the chaotic nature of war,
[01:23:23] meaning what they're saying there is like,
[01:23:25] sometimes you're only making these incremental gains because the enemy is super competent or nature's crazy.
[01:23:31] Okay. So we get that that can happen and then it continues.
[01:23:34] Many times however, commanders sought incremental gains as a means to achieve victory.
[01:23:40] Think about that. You're looking at the battlefield and you go, you know what?
[01:23:45] We're going to get this house. We're going to get that house right there.
[01:23:48] And we're going to no matter what, we're going to get that house and you're not looking at this whole battlefield,
[01:23:52] this whole city, this whole region, this whole province.
[01:23:55] So we look at these little tactical incremental gains as a means to achieve victory.
[01:24:01] This incrementalist view sees war as a slow cumulative process and it is best and is best exemplified by the grinding and tradition tactics seen on the western front in World War I.
[01:24:14] There the opponents were more or less evenly matched and their tactics resulted in indecisive action and Vietnam where the,
[01:24:22] where the opposing forces were quite dissimilar in their military capabilities,
[01:24:26] but the incremental approach led to the U.S. is over alliance on firepower and body counts.
[01:24:31] This in turn led to the conduct of military operations that were often irrelevant to the outcome of war.
[01:24:37] Even though a comparison of casualty ratio ratio is a period favorable,
[01:24:42] think about that, you're conducting operations that were irrelevant on the outcome of the war.
[01:24:48] How often do I see that in leadership, in businesses, in life?
[01:24:53] People are doing thing that are irrelevant to the outcome of the war and committing so much time and so many resources to that.
[01:25:02] And so much individual human stress.
[01:25:09] The body count thing in Vietnam, you know, the more I learn about that, the more the, it's such a clear mistake when you look at it from now, right, with our hindsight.
[01:25:23] And I was just reading an article the other day from a Vietnam guy was like, yeah, he's again, I think we killed two.
[01:25:30] I would, we reported 20, like that was because that way, hey, you know, every get the pat on the back, no one else knows, no one cares and how many how many platoon commanders did that.
[01:25:41] Well, every platoon in the company, so it was 60.
[01:25:44] It was 60, we killed 60.
[01:25:47] And guess what, even if we did kill 60, guess what, the vehicle didn't care.
[01:25:51] Yeah.
[01:25:52] They were there for the long war.
[01:25:54] Yeah, but on some spreadsheet, 60 means we're winning.
[01:25:57] Yep, 60 versus we took two casualties. Cool. We're going to, we're going to beat him. We're going to win.
[01:26:02] Yep.
[01:26:03] Back to the book.
[01:26:04] Therefore, the Marine Corps has embraced a more flexible imaginative and effective way to wage war maneuver warfare.
[01:26:12] That is the way you should picture everything that you do in your life.
[01:26:16] It should be maneuver warfare.
[01:26:18] Marine success with this approach has been demonstrated in places like Grenada and the Persian Gulf in contrast to tactics based on an incremental
[01:26:26] attrition tactics in maneuver warfare always aim at decisive action.
[01:26:34] That's what you want, you're that's what you want to be looking for.
[01:26:39] This is what echo Charles refers to as the long war. He says, well, I mean, he doesn't.
[01:26:44] He doesn't refer to that, but it's, but he says that that's the biggest thing that he has learned.
[01:26:50] And if he wishes he knew one thing from sitting in here for all these hours listening to me, he wishes that he knew he wishes he'd understood the long war at a young age.
[01:27:01] For sure.
[01:27:02] I feel, I think everybody probably feels like that.
[01:27:05] I certainly feel like that.
[01:27:06] And the reason life mirrors that is because life is life is a campaign.
[01:27:12] Life is as long as it is.
[01:27:15] And you have maybe in life, you might have four or five culminating events in your life.
[01:27:20] You might get, if you get lucky, you just get a handful of those.
[01:27:23] And if you miss those, if you don't, if you're not aware that you're working towards those, you'll do what a lot of people do.
[01:27:27] It was look back and say, boy, I wish I had dot dot dot dot, whatever that is.
[01:27:31] And that recognition that it's the same thing as a campaign.
[01:27:35] And you have to actually everything you do affects something else.
[01:27:38] And you need to be working towards whatever that culminating event is.
[01:27:41] You get a few. And if you miss him, you spend a lifetime looking back, wishing you had.
[01:27:45] And in combat, if you miss a culminating event, you can lose.
[01:27:49] You can lose, you can lose your guys, you can lose the war, you can lose everything.
[01:27:53] You and I were with a client.
[01:27:55] And I actually, I actually like we were with a day with him for a day.
[01:27:59] And I was like going to close out the day.
[01:28:02] And I had like some little thing that I had talked about together the day.
[01:28:07] And as soon as I got done, I realized I wish I would have said something else.
[01:28:13] And here's what I would have said because we, you and I were reading the surveys.
[01:28:18] And one of the things that we read on the surveys, someone said, hey, this training,
[01:28:25] because you'd work with this client before.
[01:28:28] Someone said, hey, the training with Dave was cool,
[01:28:31] but it was kind of like seeing a rocky movie.
[01:28:35] And at the end of a rocky movie, everybody wants to go in box and train and work out.
[01:28:41] And then two days later, you're not doing any of those things.
[01:28:45] And what I should have done, and I hit me as soon as I walked off stage,
[01:28:50] just one of those bad timings, I should have said, hey, I should have brought up those surveys,
[01:28:54] and said, I'm going to read you what someone said.
[01:28:57] And what someone said is this is like a rocky movie.
[01:28:59] And everyone wants to train boxing.
[01:29:01] And then two days later, you're back to normal.
[01:29:03] And I said to the person, whoever wrote that in this room,
[01:29:06] and I'm not going to call you out, whoever wrote that, is 100% right.
[01:29:10] You are a 100% right, because this is not an inoculation.
[01:29:16] We know you're going to be fired up, but what it takes to change leadership inside of a company
[01:29:22] is not one brief or two briefs from Dave.
[01:29:26] What it takes, it's a campaign that you have to think about every single day.
[01:29:30] You have to think about the long work.
[01:29:31] You're not going to go, you can't sit through of a three hour briefing and expect that,
[01:29:36] oh, now well, now our leadership is good to go.
[01:29:38] No, it's not like that.
[01:29:40] It's a campaign that you have to get on.
[01:29:42] You have to think about it every day.
[01:29:43] You have to train it every day.
[01:29:45] And actually the same group, we had done some physical training with them in the morning.
[01:29:49] You know, we put them through like a PT program.
[01:29:51] I should have said, okay, now that we did that PT this morning for 40 minutes,
[01:29:55] who is now in good shape?
[01:29:57] And no one would have raised their hand.
[01:29:59] And I want to said, that's right.
[01:30:01] Just because you sat through three hours with Dave and I, does this mean that your
[01:30:05] your leadership is now honed and sharp?
[01:30:08] No, not true.
[01:30:09] Just like you have to continue to work out every day.
[01:30:11] You have to continue to train and study every single day.
[01:30:14] You have to continue to be reflective and look at yourself and see and look at your peers
[01:30:19] and talk to each other and see what you can improve and see what you can do better.
[01:30:22] That's what you need to do.
[01:30:23] So yes, in two days, you're going to be back to normal.
[01:30:27] If you allow yourself to be, but if you get in the game and if you see this as a campaign
[01:30:33] and if you see this as a working out that you need to do every single day and if you look at yourself for the mistakes that you're making as a leader
[01:30:39] and what mistakes your organization is making as leaders, that is when you will become better
[01:30:45] and you can become a champion just like Rocky.
[01:30:49] Unfortunately, I thought of it like three, like literally 15 seconds after I walked off.
[01:30:54] But you know, and what I told them was similar, but it wasn't the same.
[01:31:01] Right?
[01:31:02] It wasn't the same.
[01:31:03] So yeah, I remember that conversation and it also gives you the point too that no matter where you are in an organization,
[01:31:11] you actually can have massive influence from that position.
[01:31:15] If you do that, you don't have to be the CEO of a company to steer the company into a particular direction
[01:31:20] and you actually recognize, okay, maybe not today.
[01:31:22] But if I get on this path and I stay on this path, I'm going to start to cultivate a little more influence.
[01:31:28] I'm going to get a little more success.
[01:31:29] And eventually, you can be the driving force behind the organization, the team being successful in any level.
[01:31:38] Yes, you can.
[01:31:40] You have so much more, just like you have so much more ownership of things like in your world.
[01:31:45] People don't realize how much control and power they have over their life.
[01:31:50] Okay, I get it, the dirt's exceptions.
[01:31:53] I get it, that there's horrible diseases.
[01:31:54] I get it, there's accidents.
[01:31:56] I get it, I get it and the sympathy and empathy that I feel for those situations.
[01:32:03] Absolutely, I get it.
[01:32:05] There's also so much that you have control over in your life.
[01:32:10] So you have this impact over your life and it's the same thing in an organization.
[01:32:15] You think, oh, no, no, no, I'm just a middle manager.
[01:32:18] Or I'm just a front line soldier.
[01:32:21] Okay, let's see what happens.
[01:32:23] Let's see what happens if you get in the game.
[01:32:27] I'll tell you what happens.
[01:32:29] Al Grey.
[01:32:30] Emma, he started off as whatever it is you want in the United States Marine Corps.
[01:32:35] That's what I'm talking about.
[01:32:37] How did he do that by sitting back and complaining and pointing his finger to other people?
[01:32:41] No, by stepping up and making things happen.
[01:32:44] That's how you do it.
[01:32:46] Back worth young kid in listed kid.
[01:32:51] What do you do?
[01:32:53] Sit back and complain or sit back and say to an comedy control?
[01:32:56] No, he stepped up to a ownership of things.
[01:32:58] Made things happen.
[01:32:59] Got a battlefield of commission.
[01:33:01] You can make these things happen.
[01:33:03] Whether you get a battlefield of commission or not, you can make these things happen.
[01:33:06] I see that all the time when I was one of that training.
[01:33:08] There'd be a, if there's a platoon with like a weak leadership, like weak,
[01:33:11] platoon commander, weak platoon chief, and it happens, but there'd be some pipe hit in the E5 in there.
[01:33:18] Just a hard dog.
[01:33:20] And he would have good leadership skills.
[01:33:23] And he, I had one kid, he was such a beast.
[01:33:27] But he wasn't like letting it out.
[01:33:30] They were going through their urban training.
[01:33:32] And they're all pinned down and the leaders are making no decisions.
[01:33:35] And I walk over this kiddies pinned down behind a wall with like a saw.
[01:33:39] And I'm like, I'm like, hey, bro, and he's like, what's up, sir?
[01:33:43] And I was like, you're just going to sit here and let all this happen.
[01:33:45] He's like, you know what to do?
[01:33:48] And I said, make something happen, bro.
[01:33:51] You know what to do.
[01:33:52] And the light in his eyes as he just started to get some.
[01:33:57] And that's all it takes.
[01:33:58] Somebody step up and lead.
[01:34:00] So it doesn't matter where you are in that organization.
[01:34:02] If you, if you look at where you're at, if you look at where you want to go,
[01:34:06] long-term, you'll get there.
[01:34:08] And it's not going to be easy.
[01:34:10] Man, there were things that I fought for in the seal teams that I took years and years and years.
[01:34:14] And some of my wasn't successful completely.
[01:34:17] I planted seeds that are still trying to take root.
[01:34:20] But that's what you got to do.
[01:34:26] Back to the book.
[01:34:27] This does not mean however that combat should be viewed as a bloodless ballet of movement.
[01:34:32] I should have read that in this one first.
[01:34:34] This does not mean however that combat should be viewed as a bloodless.
[01:34:37] They bloodless ballet of movement.
[01:34:40] Combat, especially at the tactical level of war, will be characterized by tough, brutal, and desperate engagements.
[01:34:47] We must remember that war is a violent clash of two opposing wheels in which each side is trying to rest advantage from the other.
[01:34:54] Our future enemies may not allow us to gain, maintain, or employ technological or numerical superiority.
[01:35:02] The future battle may be bloody and tough, and that makes it vitally important that we, marine leaders, strive to develop tactical proficiency.
[01:35:13] What do we mean by achieving a decision?
[01:35:16] Take a moment to compare these two historical examples.
[01:35:19] Anzio, a model of tactical, indecisiveness.
[01:35:23] Late 1943, the Allies were searching for a way to alleviate the stalemate nightly.
[01:35:27] The campaign installed around the casino war, the casino front, and resembled the trench war for a World War I.
[01:35:34] In order to keep pressure on the Germans bypass the stubborn German defences at Casino,
[01:35:41] and capture Rome a bold operation was envisioned.
[01:35:45] The US Army's third division and the British Army's first division would make an amphibious landing at Anzio about 35 miles south of Rome.
[01:35:55] The Allies achieved complete surprise by landing an Anzio on January 22nd, 1944, under the command of the US Army's major general Lucas, the Americans, and British quickly established a B-Chead in rapidly advanced three miles inland by mid-morning against light German resistance.
[01:36:12] With the majority of their forces concentrated further south around Casino, the Germans could not possibly reinforce the Anzio B-Chead until January 23rd, 24th.
[01:36:22] If the Allies pressed their advantage, the road to Rome lay virtually undefended.
[01:36:27] The C-Draverome would have had the effect of isolating the German defenders in the south and firmly establishing allied control over Italy.
[01:36:36] Pretty straightforward situation. Yet general Lucas delayed, concerned about being overextended and wanting to build up his logistics.
[01:36:44] A sure-or-a-lucous failed to press his initial advantage of surprise and allowed the Germans to reinforce the Anzio area, not until January 29th.
[01:36:53] Did Lucas feel strong enough to make an offensive bid, but by that time it was too late the Germans had arrived in force and had seized the dominating high ground in the B-Chead area.
[01:37:02] Not only was the Allied offensive at Anzio stalled, but the Germans had seized the initiative and quickly threatened to drive the Americans and British back into the C.
[01:37:12] As a result, the Allies did not complete the reduction of German defenses in southern Italy and capture Rome until several months later.
[01:37:21] General Lucas lost a tremendous opportunity to exploit an initial success and gain a decisive result.
[01:37:30] Pretty straightforward.
[01:37:34] It's easy to sit here too and be like, well, I obviously would have just pushed forward, right?
[01:37:42] There's, and that's what you've got to think about. You've got to think about, okay, what did he say?
[01:37:47] You know, and how much intelligence did he have? He might not have known all this.
[01:37:51] That being said, this is one of those situations where you go, look, we just made it a sure pretty easily.
[01:37:58] We've got, we're doing pretty good. The Germans aren't in position yet and you can figure that out pretty quickly.
[01:38:05] And let's let me tell you something else. Here's what my mentality would have been.
[01:38:09] The Germans, okay, let's say we don't know 100% that the Germans aren't set up on us, right? How are we going to find out?
[01:38:17] You know, I'm going to find out. I'm going to go.
[01:38:19] I'm not sitting here in waiting. I'm not going to sit here in wait. I'm going to find out. I'm going to push forward.
[01:38:22] I guess what if we push forward and we meet massive resistance that requires this extensive logistics training that I'm waiting for?
[01:38:28] Cool. Guess what? Looks like we're going to wait for it.
[01:38:30] But if I push start to push through and all of a sudden I realize that that we get through, well, guess what?
[01:38:35] Cool. We're going to move a little bit further. And I'm going to continue to push.
[01:38:38] You know, I talk, I've been talking a lot about this incremental decision making idea.
[01:38:43] And that's a great example, right? It's not okay. We landed. We're going to go straight to Rome.
[01:38:48] But guess what? We landed. We're three miles in. Guess what? We're going to do tomorrow. We're going to go five miles in.
[01:38:54] Guess what we're going to do today after that? We're going to go seven miles in. Oh, and by the way, if we start to see like an open road,
[01:38:59] we're going to go until we meet some resistance. So I'm not committing a hundred percent day one because we don't know what we're up against.
[01:39:07] We don't know because if we run out of ammunition, we're screwed. We get that.
[01:39:10] So I'm going to make these incremental decisions that are going to lead me toward my final objective, but it's going to it's going to prevent me from getting stagnant and waiting and not gaining any new information.
[01:39:24] Because when we're sitting still, we're not gaining any new information and a matter of fact, the enemy's maneuvering. I say it all the time. If you're sitting still, the enemy's maneuvering on you. Here's a classic example.
[01:39:33] And what do you think the Nazis are going to do? But the Nazis aren't going to maneuver on you?
[01:39:37] These are the blitz-crayed people. Remember them? Yeah. We're not sitting back and waiting for this to happen. We need to go forward.
[01:39:45] And obviously, again, you know, this is all for us. We can sit here and on-site and listen to this and read this and recognize that.
[01:39:51] But that's, for the first two pages of this book, that's the leader's job is to recognize that when you have those culminating events, when you have the opportunity you have to see it,
[01:40:02] bring all your forces to bear to attack that. Now, that doesn't mean that you just get online and push in this case. You just push the 30 miles from that's not what it means.
[01:40:10] But it means that this is our time to take the things that we have. The all the things that are available to us to do that. And we, we get aggressive when we attack.
[01:40:17] And what I'm saying is, I'm actually giving away a pragmatic tool that you can technically use.
[01:40:25] Because I'm not saying you can look back and say, hey, the decision should have been this or this. What I'm saying here's a pragmatic tool that you can use as a leader, which is the following.
[01:40:35] You see an opening press. You press. You don't need to go crazy. Oh, you press a new evaluate. Yes, you see what happens. And that's a better chance to reveal what's actually happening than not pressing, which is different than everybody get online and run.
[01:40:50] That's not what I'm saying. But we move to the next one and the best intelligence you're going to get is at the point of friction. And if it's there's not a lot of friction here. Good.
[01:41:00] Keep, hey, there's way more friction than we expected or can deal with it. Now we know and we can actually respond to that as well.
[01:41:07] Jack.
[01:41:09] Another example, Kni, the clear tactical decision achieved on August 2nd, 2016 BC, the Carthagini in general Hannibal fought the Roman army under the command of Terrentineus, Terrentius, Varo,
[01:41:29] Nirvana City of Kni and Southern Italy. Hannibal based his tactics on the specific characteristics of both forces and on the aggressive personality of the Roman commander. Oh, I lighted that in my notes.
[01:41:41] Because he was that Hannibal based his tactics on the specific characteristics of both forces and on the aggressive personality of the Roman commander. He knows,
[01:41:53] He knows that that dude likes to get aggressive. Cool. I got you panged. Here we go. As Donbro, Hannibal drew up his force of 50,000 veterans with his flank with his left flank anchored on the affidist river secured from
[01:42:10] the development by the more numerous Romans. So you got on your left flank, you're protected, you got to river there. Great. His centerline contained only a thin line of infantry. His main force was concentrated on the flanks. His left and right wings each contained deep fan lengths is of heavy infantry.
[01:42:25] Eight thousand cavalry tied to his left line to the river or tied his left line to the river. 2000 cavalry protected his open right flank. Eight thousand men guard his camp in the rear. Varo and more than 80,000 Romans. So that outnumbered by Hannibal's outnumbered by 30,000.
[01:42:43] Varo and more than 80,000 Romans accepted the challenge. Seeing the well protected Carthaginean flanks, Varo dismissed any attempt to envelop. He decided to crush his opponent by sheer weight of numbers. He placed 65,000 men in his center.
[01:42:58] That's a 100 cavalry on his right, 4800 cavalry on the left and sent 11,000 men into attack the Carthaginean camp following preliminary scurmers. His handle will move his light center line forward to a salient against the Roman center. And when they say salient. That's like a.
[01:43:16] It's like a projection. It's like a group that's going to move forward. It's like a point almost like a point element, but it's a big point element. Then his heavy cavalry on the left.
[01:43:29] Crushed the opposing Roman cavalry and sworn completely around the Roman to Roman rear to attack the Roman cavalry on the other flank. The Roman cavalry fled the field. The Carthaginean heavy cavalry then turned back to assault the rear of the defense. The rear of the dense Roman infantry who had pressed back Hannibal's thin center line at the same time. Hannibal wield his right and left wings into the flanks the Roman center.
[01:43:53] The Romans were boxed in unable to maneuver or used their weapons effectively between 50,000 and 60,000 Romans died that day.
[01:44:03] As Varos army was destroyed. So battle the Psalm had 60,000 casualties in one day. This is 60,000.
[01:44:13] No, you're opponent. Don't beat this. Don't be over aggressive too. Varos was over aggressive. Vos like I see a thin line. Watch this. Yeah. Watch this is right.
[01:44:28] Understanding decisiveness. What did these examples tell us about achieving a decision? First achieving decision is important.
[01:44:35] This is decisive, but battle waste the lives of those who fight it and die in it. It waste the efforts of those who survive as well. All the costs, the deaths, the wounds, the sweat and effort, the equipment destroyed, or used up the supplies, expended are suffered for little gain.
[01:44:50] Such battles have no meaning except for the comparative losses and perhaps an incremental gain for one side or the other.
[01:44:59] About being a black belt in GJ2 and how a black belt in GJ2, when you grab something that doesn't matter, they don't care.
[01:45:07] What they want is the decisive thing. That's what they want. They want the decisive position. They want the decisive movement.
[01:45:14] And that's the difference. And that's what they're talking about here. You when you do things that are indecisive, that they're not going to make a break the battle.
[01:45:25] That's what's happening. It's not going to make a break the battle. You're just wasting, wasting energy, wasting in war, you're wasting humans and you're wasting equipment and you're wasting ammunition and supplies.
[01:45:36] And for a leader think about what that means when you do things that waste your people's times. And certainly in this case, waste their lives. Obviously that's an extreme situation, but even just wasting their efforts.
[01:45:47] When you do things that waste their effort over time, your credibility is a leader and even your opportunity to be successful in the long run, every single time you do that, it goes down.
[01:45:58] And that failure to recognize that this tactical thing, we're going to stay late to do this one thing because this thing needs to happen.
[01:46:05] And there are times is actually true, but there are times that if you continually waste your people's efforts eventually recognize, you actually don't care about what it is that we're doing.
[01:46:15] And over time, your credibility is a leader goes away because you don't recognize that these tactical things you're trying to get solved are all leading you down towards.
[01:46:24] In this case, the destruction of an army.
[01:46:27] Yeah, and here's what you just said, I'm going to add something to it. You said, you don't care about what we're doing.
[01:46:32] And what's even going to drive these people into a worse situation from a leadership perspective is they're going to realize that you don't care about them.
[01:46:43] You don't care about them. And you haven't done a good job when general muka yamu was on muka.
[01:46:50] He put this massive emphasis on caring about your people and like making sure they understand.
[01:46:57] And if you, because when you ask him why he loved hackworth so much, it's like, oh, because hackworth care about me.
[01:47:04] So the most important thing.
[01:47:07] The most important thing is like, oh, yeah, we, I get, I'm definitely concerned about what we're doing. The most important thing I care about is you troops.
[01:47:14] Now we have a mission to do. And by the way, the mission that we're going to do is going to benefit us all of us in the long run.
[01:47:19] Because when we win this war, our kids don't have to go to war and we're going to have stability, we're going to have security.
[01:47:23] And that's what our goal is. So it benefits us and there's going to be sacrifice in this short term.
[01:47:27] But that's what we're here to do.
[01:47:29] We're not here to make any sacrifices that aren't required at all.
[01:47:34] Ever. That's the most important thing. I care about you, my troops. I care about you. I want you to win.
[01:47:44] I want you to survive. I want you to be taken care of.
[01:47:48] And we have a mission to do. And we're going to do it.
[01:47:51] But the mission benefits you as well. Right? It's not just, hey, you're going to die for me.
[01:47:58] No, that's not what we're talking about at all. We're going to put our lives at risk because we have something we're trying to accomplish.
[01:48:06] That's going to benefit each and every one of our families in our lives in our country.
[01:48:09] That idea in business and that idea is so important. That belief that you care about your people so much.
[01:48:20] That they recognize at a point that they would be willing to do anything for you.
[01:48:25] And it doesn't mean you don't ask your people to go do hard things. It doesn't mean you don't put them in very difficult situations by which their lives might actually be lost.
[01:48:32] That's not what it means to care about you means I don't put you at risk. Sometimes I actually do put you at risk.
[01:48:37] But if a leader, and it's not just at, it's actually believing. If a leader actually believes that his people are that important.
[01:48:47] And as a subordinate, if I work for someone and go, this guy actually, he cares about me that much. I would literally be willing to do anything for that person.
[01:48:58] But it actually comes from that understanding that this person I work for, he doesn't just care about the mission being accomplished for the mission sake or even for his own sake that he recognizes actually in my best interest.
[01:49:10] That's a rare thing. That's what cultivates young Marines or young people willing to do anything for you.
[01:49:18] And leaders get that backwards all the time. They recognize it. They failed to recognize that the thing that will allow them to do the hardest things they need to do is by having those people believe in them that much.
[01:49:29] Yeah, I'm going to put an actual quantifiable amount because you just said it twice. You said that much. You said the leader cares about you that much. You said it sort of in the beginning of your statement and you just said it at the end.
[01:49:44] I'm going to quantify what that much means because it's really easy to do.
[01:49:49] The way you quantify how much a leader has to care, how much is it? It's the leader cares more about the person than they do about themselves.
[01:49:59] And if that's what the troops see, if that's what they see, that's when you get, as you said, young Marines, young or employees or soldiers, sailors, airman Marines,
[01:50:10] construction guys, manufacturing people, whoever it is. When they see that, they will know and that then they will go that extra distance for you.
[01:50:22] Hey, is it every single one of those guys? No, because you've got people that are self-centered and then we're going to look at you and go, cool.
[01:50:27] I'm going to take advantage of this guy. That happens. It does happen. You've got to be wary of it. You just need to understand it for sure.
[01:50:34] But that's what you need to do.
[01:50:37] And you can't fake that. That, no. You can't fake that.
[01:50:41] Make no matter that as a leader or something, you have to believe. You have to believe that feeling of they are actually more important.
[01:50:47] And then you know things in some places come very naturally with your kids. That comes naturally.
[01:50:52] But you can't fake that and they will see right through that. And that feeling as a leader, that's hard.
[01:51:00] But it's actually, it's possible. I have worked for people that I have come to really, they care about me more than them.
[01:51:10] They are willing to endure more of themselves for my benefit. And it's almost always the other way around.
[01:51:15] And those people as few times I've worked for people like that, I would literally do anything. Anything for that person.
[01:51:23] Check. Second, achieving a decision is not easy.
[01:51:31] History is littered with indecisive battle. Sometimes it was enemy skill and determination that prevented even a victorious commander from achieving the decision he saw.
[01:51:40] In other cases, commanders fought a battle without envisioning a larger result for their actions.
[01:51:46] Again, this is long war. Sometimes even with a vision of making the decisive, making the battle decisive, they cannot achieve their goals due to the chaos and friction.
[01:51:56] That is the nature of war and makes decisive victory so difficult.
[01:52:01] That leads to the third lesson. Our examples point out to be decisive a battle or an engagement musseled to a result beyond itself.
[01:52:15] Within a battle in action that is decisive musseled directly to winning in the campaign or war as a whole for the battle to be decisive.
[01:52:33] It must lead directly to a larger success in the war as a whole.
[01:52:40] Don't even need to comment on that. Except for to say how often do people and businesses do things and fight battles.
[01:52:50] They fight battles that have no bearing and no result beyond the battle itself.
[01:52:57] You see people shooting themselves all the time with this very idea. They're going to win that war. They're going to win that argument with their wife.
[01:53:07] They're going to win that battle. What does it lead to? They're going to win that argument with their subordinate or they're going to win that argument with their boss. Where does it lead them?
[01:53:16] Oh yeah, well that worked out great for you. It actually set you back in your campaign. You don't think about that though.
[01:53:25] On the other hand, we must not seek decisiveness for its own sake. Oh, but boom, die caught in the coming at you.
[01:53:31] We do not have to all seek a decision if it is likely to be against us. We seek to ensure in so far as this is possible given the inherent uncertainties of war that the battle will go our way.
[01:53:43] We have stacked the deck in our favor before the cards are laid on the table. Otherwise, to seek decisive bond battle isn't irresponsible gamble.
[01:53:57] You're, if you see me, Jocco, if you see me engaged with someone, I already know the outcome.
[01:54:10] Like when I'm talking when I'm discussing someone, someone, I already know the outcome.
[01:54:15] Because I've already laid that out. I had otherwise I'm just listening to you. I'm just going to listen to you because I'm learning.
[01:54:21] And I'm not going to step on to the battle field, right? I'll talk to you and we'll discuss possibilities and outcomes and plans. And that's, that's great.
[01:54:31] I will not take a stand until I actually know what the outcome is going to be.
[01:54:38] And you've done all the things that you need to do prior to that up to included in that conversation. Yes. To know what that is. Yes.
[01:54:51] Because if not, then you're just arguing for argument sake. And then you might win the argument, which is great. Only it won't actually help you in the order.
[01:54:56] When we seek battle, we must seek victory, accomplishment of the assigned mission that leads to further significant gains for the force as a whole.
[01:55:09] At Anzio, the Allied aim was to break the stalemate in the south opening up a southern front that would force Germany to move additional forces from the defensive normity.
[01:55:13] This weakening of normity defenses would support our planned invasion of France later that same year at Kni.
[01:55:19] Carfage one, Carfage one, one round and it's long contenture with Rome for the domination of the Mediterranean. These tactical battles were planned for their overall operational strategic effect.
[01:55:30] The consequences of a tactical engagement should lead to achieving operational strategic goals.
[01:55:37] Please, everyone, please don't fight battles unless they're going to help you win strategically.
[01:55:48] Yeah, the battle for the battle sake doesn't help you. And those examples too, we're not doing an amphibious landing on Taroa to do an amphibious landing on Taroa.
[01:55:59] We're doing an amphibious landing on Taroa to Sabas Abizad specifically so the final thing we do is push the enemy off the island or kill it.
[01:56:07] And it's that saying that we got here we established weak competition mission and this tactical thing is battle. That's actually not what we're doing.
[01:56:13] That's a step in fact we're not even just pushing them off Taroa. That's not the goal. The goal is in pushing them off the goal.
[01:56:18] The goal for years down the river. Yeah, absolutely.
[01:56:20] The goal is two years down the river. The goal is we're going to put air planes here that we can then bomb Japan. That's what we're doing.
[01:56:26] Yes.
[01:56:28] Next section, military judgment. Once we understand what is meant by the term decisive and why is it important to seek a decision.
[01:56:35] A question naturally arises how do we do it? There is no easy answer to that question. Each battle will have its own unique answers.
[01:56:42] As with so much and more fair it depends on the situation. No formula process acronym or buzzword can provide the answer.
[01:56:51] No formula process acronym or buzzword can provide the answer.
[01:56:56] Rather, and you wouldn't guess that if you saw if you saw if you go online even with the even what they do with like me they'll do an article on me.
[01:57:06] Three things a leader needs to do.
[01:57:09] Yeah, there's three. That's definitely three. There's three. Yeah, there's three. But guess what? You need to actually learn the art behind the science.
[01:57:17] Rather, the answer is in military judgment.
[01:57:21] In the ability of the commander to understand the battlefield and act decisively military judgment is a developed skill that is honed by the wisdom gained through experience.
[01:57:30] Combined with situational awareness, military judgment allows us to identify emerging patterns discern critical vulnerabilities
[01:57:38] and concentrate combat power.
[01:57:42] The beauty of that is the Marine Corps. The Marine Corps understands that those traits that attribute of judgment that attribute of decisiveness.
[01:57:52] Those can be developed. Those can be learned. Those aren't just innate natural capacity that we just happen to bring these people into the Marine Corps.
[01:58:00] That's one of the traits of the Marine Corps recognizes that we have to teach people to learn decisiveness
[01:58:06] and teach people the quality of judgment. And they breed that in their Marines and they train and teach them.
[01:58:11] Now, yes, some are better than others. No doubt about it.
[01:58:14] But these qualities, these things, and we're talking about how important these aren't not just in the military, but in the private sector.
[01:58:19] These can be learned. These can be evolved and developed inside everybody.
[01:58:24] To what degree is certainly different, but everybody can get better at this.
[01:58:28] Almost everybody.
[01:58:30] True.
[01:58:32] Right. Yeah. No, you're right. Absolutely. And I'm speaking in absolute and everybody. And really what I should be saying is not just I shouldn't say it that everybody has to say almost everybody.
[01:58:42] But I should say, we have so much more capacity to evolve these things than we think we do.
[01:58:49] Yeah. And by the way, just in case no one was paying attention to what I've been saying for the last 25 years.
[01:58:55] When I say almost everybody, the almost the person that I can't teach this to the person that can't improve their military judgment is the person that already thinks they have good sense of no is it all.
[01:59:04] Yep.
[01:59:04] Is the person that thinks that they already have the wisdom that that person they're not going to get any better.
[01:59:10] In fact, they're going to get worse because they'll reinforce their ideas.
[01:59:15] So if you have an open mind, you can get way better at this stuff. Yeah.
[01:59:20] If you don't have an open mind, you won't get any better.
[01:59:24] Understanding the situation, the first requirement of a commander is to understand the situation.
[01:59:28] You would think that that was just so awesome.
[01:59:32] So self-evident. Yeah. That you wouldn't need to say it in a book.
[01:59:34] But how often am I dealing with a leader, military, civilian, another human being just going through life?
[01:59:40] They don't even understand the situation that they're in.
[01:59:42] That's why we have to save this out loud in a book.
[01:59:45] The first requirement of commanders to understand the situation.
[01:59:49] The successful tactician studies the situation to develop and is mind-to-clear picture of what is happening.
[01:59:54] How we got that way and how it might develop further.
[01:59:57] Considering the factors of mission and metering and whether troops and support available,
[02:00:02] this is met met tea.
[02:00:04] The commander must think through all actions determine the desired result and ascertain the means to achieve that result.
[02:00:11] Part of the commanders thinking should also include assuming the role of the enemy,
[02:00:15] considering what the enemy's best course of action may be, and deciding how to defeat it.
[02:00:20] Thinking through these elements helps the commander develop increased situational awareness.
[02:00:26] So yes, study the situation.
[02:00:31] Study how it got that way.
[02:00:34] Study how it might further develop.
[02:00:37] It's interesting when we work with companies because you get,
[02:00:42] the first thing you get is kind of where they're at.
[02:00:45] Here's where we're at right now.
[02:00:47] Then you start getting filled in on how it got that way.
[02:00:52] Those are some interesting stories.
[02:00:54] Often.
[02:00:55] Then we're looking at how it could develop.
[02:00:58] One thing we know is if we develop leaders and we start to get on the path,
[02:01:02] it's going to develop in a great way.
[02:01:04] If we don't do that, it's going to be problematic.
[02:01:07] Based on this understanding of the situation,
[02:01:10] the commander can begin to form a mental image of how the battle might be fought.
[02:01:14] Central to the commander's thinking must be the question in this situation.
[02:01:17] What efforts will be decisive?
[02:01:20] The commander asks this one.
[02:01:22] This question not just once, but repeatedly as the battle progresses.
[02:01:27] The commander must also address the possible outcomes and the new situations that were
[02:01:31] result from those possibilities as the situation changes.
[02:01:34] So will the solutions and the actions that derived from it?
[02:01:39] You always have to reassess what's going on.
[02:01:44] For every situation, the leader must be able to decide which of the countless and often
[02:01:49] confusing pieces of information are important and reliable.
[02:01:53] The leader must determine what the enemy is trying to do and how the counter is
[02:01:57] efforts.
[02:01:58] The leader's skill is essentially one of pattern recognition.
[02:02:03] The ability after seeing only a few pieces of the puzzle to fill in the rest of the picture.
[02:02:07] Secondly, pattern recognition is the ability to understand the true significance and dynamics of a situation with limited information.
[02:02:13] Pattern recognition is a key skill for success on the battlefield.
[02:02:17] Get those overlays out.
[02:02:20] Tactics requires leaders to make decisions and leader must make decisions in a constantly changing environment of friction on certain Indian danger.
[02:02:29] Making effective decisions and acting on those decisions faster than the enemy is a crucial element of marine cortex.
[02:02:36] Making decisions faster.
[02:02:38] Sometimes there are sometimes there may be time to analyze situations deliberately and consider multiple options.
[02:02:43] Comparing several options and selecting the best one is known as analytical decision making when time allows a commander to apply analytical decision making.
[02:02:51] Usually before an engagement or before, battle begins that commander should make the most of it.
[02:02:55] Absolutely.
[02:02:56] Once engaged, however, the commander finds time is short and the need for speed is paramount.
[02:03:03] In some cases, speeding up the analytical decision process may be sufficient.
[02:03:07] However, in most cases, intuitive decision making is needed to generate and maintain tempo.
[02:03:15] Intuitive decision making relies on a commander's intuitive ability to recognize the key elements of a particular problem and arrive at the proper decision without having to compare multiple options.
[02:03:27] Intuition is not some mysterious reality.
[02:03:30] Not some mysterious quality. Rather, it is a developed skill grounded firmly in experience and one that can be further developed through education and practice is not without some risk, however,
[02:03:42] and leaders should use the decision making style that works for them.
[02:03:48] Learn to detach. Learn to take a step back.
[02:03:52] Make the intuitive decision.
[02:03:54] Making incremental decisions.
[02:03:58] You know, Brian Stan, when Brian Sam was on here, I have to go listen to it again, but one thing I noticed is he was really into the tempo.
[02:04:10] And I painted that decision. I wanted to keep the tempo.
[02:04:14] You know, certain people, they sort of grasp on to a tenant and it makes really good sense to them.
[02:04:23] And when Stan was on, like, I could see, oh yeah, he, the way he talked about maintaining that tempo.
[02:04:30] You know, he had a good instructor at that block of the basics school.
[02:04:33] Yeah, I really explained it well and he said, okay, I get this.
[02:04:36] I can, I can, if I can go, if I can keep that speed up, if I can keep that operational tempo up, I can overcome my enemy.
[02:04:44] I love how they describe the idea of being intuitive is not magic or a mystery.
[02:04:51] Yeah. And people write that off like, oh, he's got people that are naturally intuitive, actually aren't naturally intuitive.
[02:04:57] They've cultivated and developed that through a ton of experience and the discipline to put themselves in those situations over and over and over again.
[02:05:04] And for those of us on the outside, it looks like it's just natural.
[02:05:09] Yeah. But it's really a byproduct of all the times that they've done that.
[02:05:12] So it is, it is natural to them only because of what they've done to put themselves in that position.
[02:05:17] Yeah. And there's like pragmatic things that you can do to make yourself seem super intuitive.
[02:05:22] And I do them all the time. There, for instance, and I was just writing about this.
[02:05:28] I'll sit there and there'll be a group of my subordinates talking about whatever thing we got to decide on.
[02:05:34] And I'm not saying a damn word.
[02:05:36] And I'll listen and I'll get all this great information from all of them about all the different possibilities of things,
[02:05:42] and the way things go and the way things the outcomes we could have and the resistance we could meet in these various areas.
[02:05:47] And I get done listening to all that for 28 minutes.
[02:05:50] And I haven't said anything. But guess what I've done is I've taken all those things and by being detached and by listening and by not having a preformed opinion and by letting my ego not drive my decision making.
[02:06:01] When I finally say, hey, here's the best way to go forward.
[02:06:07] It seems like all that people love.
[02:06:10] He made that decision really easily. No, actually it's because I just listened. There's pragmatic things you can do that make you seem more intuitive.
[02:06:19] And incremental decision is one of those things as well because you could make an incremental decision very easily because there's less risking it.
[02:06:27] So when you say, hey, listen, we just landed and the Germans, we haven't met any resistance, we're going forward.
[02:06:36] We're going to go forward three more miles. That seems like a really bold and intuitive decision.
[02:06:41] But really, you have in memory resistance and it's pretty easy to make because you're not over committing.
[02:06:48] So so you seem like the super cool. You're not saying, hey, we're going all the way to Rome.
[02:06:53] You're just saying, hey, we're just going to go three more miles. We made it three. We're going to double it. Let's go.
[02:06:58] It different things. Damn, that's bold.
[02:07:00] But the reality is you haven't met any stern resistance, cool. Let's rock and roll.
[02:07:05] Am I super intuitive? No. I'm just detached on the sessing and making a decision.
[02:07:11] Or, you know, I find myself kind of laughing. I'm hearing you read it and I kind of chuckle to myself a little bit.
[02:07:17] There's the reason these seemingly totally simple and obvious statements need to be said. Like,
[02:07:24] You need to assess the situation and figure out how we got here.
[02:07:29] That it's so easy to listen to that. But in reality, it's really hard for people to do that. And the people that do that the worst are the ones that are most emotional about what's going on.
[02:07:40] The most inside.
[02:07:42] We talk about Ed echelon front and we talk with companies.
[02:07:45] We talk about detached when we're talking about prioritizing execute.
[02:07:48] And if I say prioritizing execute, the first thing that people jump to is,
[02:07:52] I got to get the right resources and make sure I know what the right priorities are.
[02:07:56] It's true, but actually individually what you need to do is you need to detach from what's going on.
[02:08:02] And make sure that what seems to be a priority for you isn't a priority because you're so inside that and so emotional about that.
[02:08:09] You can't see that actually this thing changed.
[02:08:12] Step B took us to this and things are different. Now we have to shift our priorities.
[02:08:16] And it isn't just people, I'll resource as allocated the right things.
[02:08:21] So it's, are you detached from the situation so you're actually doing that correctly? So you don't stay in one place too long or push too far forward or anything in between.
[02:08:30] And sounds right at the same. You need to detach and pay attention and look at what's going on around you.
[02:08:35] And we kind of have that it's so hard for some people to do, especially when it's a your word thing that you're living on the inside.
[02:08:41] And when you do that as a commander, do that as a leader in organization.
[02:08:44] You can crush organizations by being so committed to the thing you're doing in one direction or another because your simply does not detached.
[02:08:50] And when you can show people what detachment looks like and just pull them out a little bit and look around.
[02:08:55] I was at an FTX two weeks ago. So we do this FTX and they can be very chaotic, very dynamic.
[02:09:00] There's things going on and more often not when you're leading your team in this FTX is field training.
[02:09:04] You're getting slaughtered by the enemy. There's 15 of you.
[02:09:07] There's three of them and they're destroying you because they'd see what's going on.
[02:09:10] And the leaders run around and they try to make decisions and I grabbed someone who was dead.
[02:09:15] So we put some hate set them down and pull them up and I sat on next to me and I took a big shot and I was like,
[02:09:19] I'm next to me and I took about 20 steps away from the action. I said, what do you see?
[02:09:23] Just tell me what you see and they said, oh, I see a group over here running.
[02:09:27] I see someone getting covered. I see two enemy running behind that building.
[02:09:31] And they went on and said about 15 different things that they saw.
[02:09:34] And I said, you see actually, you see everything. You're just standing here looking around because you're totally detached.
[02:09:40] And what do you think we should do? I said, all those people need to get out from behind that building and run over here.
[02:09:47] That's what a good leader does. And when they can see that from the outside end of the set of the inside out,
[02:09:52] all the stuff becomes obvious. And we're listening, you know, leading, reading and sort of laughing about it.
[02:09:56] But it's actually really hard to do when you're inside that.
[02:09:58] Yeah, that's the, that's the classic Seth Stone story I tell when he had his neck brace on during Land Warfare.
[02:10:05] And he wasn't allowed to participate and he said, they're watching his, his to ask you to get annihilated.
[02:10:10] And he says, you know, can I help him? And I said, well, hold on a minute.
[02:10:13] And then they're going to annihilate anymore. And it says, can I help him? And I said, all right, go ahead and help him.
[02:10:17] And he gives him, you know, one quick immediate action drill. And they executed and they're gone.
[02:10:21] And he says to me, man, it's so easy when you're way up here. And we were literally six inches above the task unit.
[02:10:29] But when you're, and then I told them, you know, when we were going through this training, it was like this for me every time.
[02:10:35] I could see everything because I was detached. I wasn't in the weeds.
[02:10:39] And that's gives you this incredible power and visibility. And it happens, doesn't, we're not only, here's the thing, we're not only talking about,
[02:10:49] the battlefield or the trainings in there. We're talking about any situation. We're talking about business and yes,
[02:10:55] we're talking about life as well.
[02:10:57] Take a step back.
[02:11:00] I had a friend that was falling off the cliff with addiction, alcohol, alcohol addiction.
[02:11:08] And he was briefing me on another person that we knew that was falling off the cliff of drug addiction.
[02:11:16] And he's sitting there explaining this to me, like, I can't believe he doesn't even see what's happening.
[02:11:22] And it's so bad. And he doesn't get it. He can't see how bad it is for himself.
[02:11:26] And I'm sitting there and I was, I was going to the extreme.
[02:11:30] I was going, I know I can't believe how hard I can't believe he can't see that.
[02:11:34] And I was describing him.
[02:11:36] Because we can't detach, we get caught in the relationships and jobs and scenarios that are bad,
[02:11:43] because we can't detach, we get emotional, so don't let it happen.
[02:11:48] Leaders with strong situational awareness and broad experience can act quickly because they have intuitive understanding of the situation.
[02:11:54] No one needs to be done and know what can be done.
[02:11:58] This insight has often been called, Coo-Dui,
[02:12:03] which is a French term that we've talked about on this podcast, which literally means to stroke the eye,
[02:12:08] which means you take quick glance at something and you can understand it.
[02:12:12] It's also called tactical sense.
[02:12:15] Union-ormy brigade general John Buferts approached the battle of Gettysburg,
[02:12:20] off a good example of understanding the battle so that it leads to a decision.
[02:12:24] Arriving at Gettysburg with a division of cavalry on the morning of June 30th, 1863,
[02:12:29] Beaufort-Sarconfederate forces approaching from the northwest with the bulk of the Union forces still
[02:12:34] some miles away, Beaufort was able to conceptualize the coming battle in his mind.
[02:12:39] From his position on a hill outside of town, he's de facto detached.
[02:12:47] He could see that early seizure of the high ground west of Gettysburg was critical to giving the army of the Potomac time to mass its forces.
[02:12:55] Occupation of this high ground would also preserve tactical advantage of the high ground to Beaufort's rear for the Union army once they arrived on the battlefield.
[02:13:03] Beaufort also knew that if the Confederates were allowed to mass forces first around the high ground to the southwest,
[02:13:11] Lee would have the advantage over the arriving Union forces.
[02:13:14] Quickly spreading out, one brigade west to town along with Fierce and Grinch,
[02:13:18] General Beaufort settled into defend Gettysburg until the arrival of Union reinforcements on July 1st,
[02:13:25] the following day he held his ground against the division of Confederate infantry supported by artillery until General,
[02:13:30] John Reynolds second corps came up and reinforced the line.
[02:13:33] General Beaufort's ability to first see the coming battle take quick action in the disposition of his forces and hold the high ground until reinforceers,
[02:13:40] one of the decisive actions that defeated the army of northern Virginia, at the Battle of Gettysburg.
[02:13:46] Beaufort's actions that Gettysburg demonstrated an exceptional ability to grasp the essence of a tactical situation through the skills of pattern recognition and intuitive decision making.
[02:13:57] I'm going to say that when you get up on the high ground and you look around, you can see things that other people aren't going to see and you can make really good decisions.
[02:14:05] Now this is a physical example, but you can mentally do this as well and you have to, you have to mentally step back, detach,
[02:14:15] acting decisively.
[02:14:16] Our ability to understand the situation is useless if we're not prepared to act decisively.
[02:14:20] When the opportunity arrives, we must exploit it fully and aggressively committing every ounce of combat power.
[02:14:26] We can muster and pushing ourselves to the limits of exhaustion.
[02:14:30] The keys to this effort are identifying enemy critical vulnerabilities shaping the operation area to our advantage,
[02:14:36] designating a main effort to focus our combat power and acting in a bold and ruthless manner.
[02:14:46] Critical vulnerabilities for battlefield success, it's not enough to generate superior combat power.
[02:14:51] We must focus that combat power.
[02:14:53] Hmm, interesting.
[02:14:55] We must concentrate our efforts on a critical vulnerability.
[02:14:59] That is a vulnerability which permits us to destroy some capability without which the enemy cannot function effectively.
[02:15:05] Seeking the enemy's vulnerabilities means striking with our strength against his weakness, rather than his strength.
[02:15:14] And at a time when the enemy is not prepared, this is where we can often cause the greatest damage at the lowest cost to ourselves.
[02:15:21] And practical terms, this means avoiding his front.
[02:15:25] The frontal assault, where his attention is focused and striking his flanks and rear we did not, does not expect us.
[02:15:32] So yes, the frontal assault, it does exist and it can be used.
[02:15:38] Not the best option, very often not the best option.
[02:15:42] Just because a target is vulnerable does not however mean that it's worth attacking.
[02:15:45] We must direct our resources and strike those capabilities that are critical to the enemies,
[02:15:50] ability to function, to defend, attack or sustain himself or to command his forces.
[02:15:54] We must focus our efforts on those critical vulnerabilities that will bend the enemy most to our will most quickly.
[02:16:00] You know what that makes me think of? When that makes me think, when I see leaders,
[02:16:06] we get focused on things that don't matter that they're going to get critical about.
[02:16:11] So you know, Dave, you're doing 10 things.
[02:16:14] Six, three of them are really important for our organization.
[02:16:18] There's two of them that are at the bottom end that aren't really like a big impact at all.
[02:16:22] You're doing your top three pretty well.
[02:16:25] You're letting one of your bottom two just like doing it horribly.
[02:16:29] I might mention a little something about it just to make sure it doesn't go completely off the rails.
[02:16:33] But I've seen, I see leaders that they take all that focus and focus on something that doesn't matter.
[02:16:38] They want to get mad about, you know, you should have done this or you should have done that.
[02:16:41] And I'm thinking, how about are you really going to expend your leadership capital on that thing that barely even matters?
[02:16:47] You know, going back to the patches with me and life, you know, hey, I'm not going to expend a bunch of leadership capital in the fact that you are wearing these patches.
[02:16:54] You know what, I don't like it, but cool. Let's move on.
[02:16:57] I want you to do life and stuff. I want you guys to plan and execute awesome missions. I want you to take the fight to the enemy.
[02:17:03] That's the top things I want you to do.
[02:17:05] Do I want you to dress professionally? Yes, I do.
[02:17:08] But that's pretty low on the total pole and given where we are in this situation right now.
[02:17:13] Yeah, and leaders will create this scenario by which, okay, if I, if I acquiesce on that one little thing,
[02:17:20] that's a weakness and they're going to see that I don't hold the line on that and so it's going to infect everything else.
[02:17:26] And so they'll, they'll overdo that one thing because I hold no, that's how I lead.
[02:17:32] I hold the line on everything. When in reality, the exact opposite will happen is, is they'll recognize that
[02:17:38] Jogos actually a human being, hey, and I'm not going to just completely gap off Jogos and ignore what he says.
[02:17:44] He's kind of, he's giving me a little in case, hey, don't let this thing fall so far off the rails that it then starts to affect everything else.
[02:17:49] But what actually is important is what we're focusing on.
[02:17:51] And the inflexibility we see leaders like, well, I'm going to hold the line on everything. Well, guess what?
[02:17:56] Not everything is the same importance and not everything will have the same impact on the outcome and what you need to focus on the most is the things that are most impactful things that are most important.
[02:18:08] Patches patches on good job of life.
[02:18:13] At the lower tactical level, this may mean using fire maneuver to take out machine gun position that is backbone of it.
[02:18:19] And that is the backbone of enemy defenses. It may mean using a gap in the enemies field of fire that allows us to get into his rear, get to the rear of his position.
[02:18:27] It may mean exploiting the enemies lack of air defenses by calling in close air support.
[02:18:32] It may mean taking advantage of an enemy's lack of mobility by rapidly overrunning a key position, fashion he can respond.
[02:18:39] It may mean introducing enemy resupply routes when his supplies are running short.
[02:18:43] It may mean exploiting a lack of long-range weaponry by employing standoff tactics.
[02:18:48] When whatever we determine the enemy's critical vulnerability to be, we must be prepared to rapidly take advantage of it.
[02:18:57] In the business world, that's something you should always be paying attention to.
[02:19:04] Because we got our business and that's cool. We're going to do our thing.
[02:19:07] But what weaknesses do it does our competitor have?
[02:19:11] And are we ready to exploit those weaknesses?
[02:19:15] There is no formula for determining critical vulnerabilities.
[02:19:20] Each situation is different. Critical vulnerabilities will rarely be obvious.
[02:19:26] This is one of the things that make mastery of tactics so difficult
[02:19:30] and one reason that's so few actions achieve and decisive outcome.
[02:19:34] Identifying critical vulnerabilities is an important prerequisite to achieving a decision.
[02:19:41] Shaping the operating area once we have developed an understanding of the situation
[02:19:46] and have determined enemy critical vulnerabilities to attack, we try to shape the operating area to our advantage.
[02:19:54] Shaping includes both lethal and non-leafalactivity such as planning fires to fix the enemy using access of advanced facility movement,
[02:20:02] designating objectives to focus our combat power or using deceptive measures to reinforce enemy expectations.
[02:20:08] Using deceptive measures to reinforce enemy expectations.
[02:20:13] Because they already have that idea we're just going to reinforce it.
[02:20:16] Shaping activities can make the enemy vulnerable to attack and ped or divert his attempts to maneuver,
[02:20:22] facilitate the maneuver of friendly forces and otherwise dictate the time and place for decisive battle.
[02:20:27] Shaping forces the enemy to adopt courses of action favorable to us.
[02:20:32] We attempt to shape events in a way that allows us several options so that by the time
[02:20:37] for the moment, so that by the time the moment for decisive action arrives,
[02:20:42] we have not restricted ourselves to only one course of action through shaping
[02:20:48] we gain the initiative, preserve momentum and control the tempo combat.
[02:20:53] So yeah, we have multiple things that we're going to do.
[02:20:57] And we'll pick that course of action when it develops.
[02:20:59] Yeah, we haven't determined ahead of time which one we're going to use.
[02:21:02] Is it going to be air power until we haven't actually met that decision yet?
[02:21:05] But we're going to do things that will reveal their vulnerability and then I'm going to apply whatever that is to crush them.
[02:21:10] Now some people might be wondering, in a day-to-day or a business environment or a life,
[02:21:15] what is it? What do you tell about shaping operations?
[02:21:18] And this is a very clear translation of what this means, how you shape operations in the business world and in your life.
[02:21:29] What shaping operations means is that you're out building relationships with the other human beings
[02:21:34] that you're going to be working with.
[02:21:37] That's what it means.
[02:21:39] We build up alliances.
[02:21:42] We build up trust.
[02:21:43] We build up relationships so that when the things start to unfold,
[02:21:48] we know who we can count on.
[02:21:50] We know where we stand.
[02:21:53] And also recognizing they might be the one that delivers the most critical,
[02:21:59] the most critical action. They might be the one that at the right time at the most critical moment,
[02:22:04] do the thing we need them to do.
[02:22:06] Absolutely.
[02:22:07] And if your plan is wait for that moment to start building that relationship,
[02:22:10] it won't work.
[02:22:12] That's not how it works.
[02:22:14] You have to go back in time and you have to build that with the anticipation.
[02:22:17] Not even knowing which one is going to be at that time,
[02:22:20] but that relationship has to be available that it's here.
[02:22:23] We need to do this now and they're on board.
[02:22:26] Main effort.
[02:22:29] The main effort is the central maneuver,
[02:22:31] is a central maneuver warfare concept,
[02:22:34] concentrating efforts on achieving objectives that lead to victory.
[02:22:37] Of all the actions going on with an archamit,
[02:22:40] we recognize a one as the most critical to success at that moment.
[02:22:44] The unit assigned responsibility for accomplishing this key mission is designated as the main effort.
[02:22:49] The focal point upon which converges the combat power of the force.
[02:22:55] The main effort receives priority for support of any kind.
[02:22:59] It must be.
[02:23:00] So you get to look at your life and say like what's your main effort in your life.
[02:23:03] And you got to make sacrifices in other areas that are important in that particular time.
[02:23:07] And they're going to talk about this to your main effort can change.
[02:23:10] Like it can be a good adapt.
[02:23:11] Hey, my main effort right now and focusing on this thing.
[02:23:13] Oh, that change.
[02:23:14] You know, I was finishing a book.
[02:23:16] I was finishing a book.
[02:23:18] And guess what? That was my main effort for like,
[02:23:21] you know, I actually it was the main effort when I was editing.
[02:23:25] So you get edits back from your from your editor, right?
[02:23:30] And they've got little ideas.
[02:23:32] There's a time frame that that's doing.
[02:23:35] So I've got, you know, whatever 80,000 word book.
[02:23:38] When I'm writing the book, it's not the main effort.
[02:23:40] Because it's just part of what I'm doing.
[02:23:42] It's an hour a day.
[02:23:43] It's a thousand words a day boom.
[02:23:44] I look up in three months and I've got 80,000 words.
[02:23:47] Okay, there wasn't the main effort.
[02:23:48] Then all of a sudden, I get back my edits from my editor.
[02:23:53] And now I've got to in that's do in six days.
[02:23:56] That becomes my main effort.
[02:23:58] 100% because I can't out of time.
[02:23:59] It's going to take like three, four hours a day to do those edits.
[02:24:03] So it has to be the main effort.
[02:24:05] So your main effort can change in your life.
[02:24:07] But what you do is you sacrifice other things.
[02:24:10] Like during that time period, I was kind of lucky because I hurt my knee.
[02:24:13] Confundably hurt my knee.
[02:24:15] Couldn't train your kids.
[02:24:16] You know what I was like cool.
[02:24:18] There's that editing.
[02:24:19] It needs to get done.
[02:24:20] Did it.
[02:24:21] So your main effort can change and adapt in the same thing happens on the battlefield.
[02:24:27] Faced with the decision, we ask ourselves, how can I best support the main effort?
[02:24:33] So the main effort receives priority for support of any kind.
[02:24:37] It must be clear to all of the units in the command that they must support that unit in the accomplishment of the mission.
[02:24:42] The main effort becomes a harmonizing force for a subordinates initiative.
[02:24:46] Faced with the decision, we ask ourselves, how can I best support the main effort?
[02:24:50] And if you want to be good, if you want to create a good reputation for yourself as a leader and as a human being,
[02:24:57] when you're not the main effort, instead of complaining and worried that you don't have the spotlight,
[02:25:02] what you use you look at the person that's supporting you, say, how can I help you win?
[02:25:06] Yeah.
[02:25:07] A good leader says when they recognize someone else's main effort is what can I do to help?
[02:25:12] And all the time we see it when you're not the main effort, you know what the bad leaders do?
[02:25:17] They complain that they're not the main effort.
[02:25:19] And they argue and they fight and they stamp their foot to say, I should be the main effort.
[02:25:23] And even worse, they undermine the main effort because they want to see the main effort fail.
[02:25:28] Dave shouldn't have had this.
[02:25:29] I'm going to undermine Dave watching fail, then I'll get the leg up.
[02:25:32] Yeah.
[02:25:33] How does that help you in the long and away?
[02:25:35] That's right.
[02:25:36] Because you're playing the short game.
[02:25:38] Some actions may support the main effort directly.
[02:25:41] For example, Commander may use other forces to deceive the enemy as to the location of the main effort.
[02:25:46] Marine forces used this concept extensively in conducting a series of combined arms raids prior to the ground offensive and operation.
[02:25:52] Desert Storm, the raids were to confuse the Iraqis as to the true position and intention of allied forces.
[02:25:58] The raid force appeared in the middle of the night and fired from positions the enemy had every right to believe
[02:26:04] or unoccupied.
[02:26:05] Use of a main effort implies the use of economy of force.
[02:26:09] This term does not mean that we use as little force as we think we can get away with.
[02:26:17] Rather, it means that we must not fail to make effective use of all the assets available to us.
[02:26:23] Forces not in a position to directly support the main effort should be used to indirectly support it.
[02:26:29] Such forces might be used to distract the enemy or tie it out enemy forces that might otherwise
[02:26:33] reinforce the threat and point.
[02:26:35] Uncommited forces can be used in this effort by maneuvering them in faints and demonstrations that keep the enemy off balance.
[02:26:42] And this is something that I think you mentioned earlier is like, oh yeah, the person that's not the main effort has a huge impact on what's happening.
[02:26:52] So just because you're not the main effort doesn't mean you shouldn't do everything in your power to support the main effort.
[02:26:59] While the commander always designates a main effort it may shift during the course of battle events unfold because events and the enemy are unpredictable few battles flow exactly as the commander is planned.
[02:27:09] Isn't that funny? Few battles flow exactly as the commander's planned.
[02:27:13] As a result, the commander must make adjustments.
[02:27:17] How often do I see a commander a leader have their plan in their head and that's what they're sticking to?
[02:27:25] We see it all the time.
[02:27:26] I'm sticking to the plan and yet few battles flow exactly as the commander.
[02:27:31] It's okay.
[02:27:32] It's by definition, spissing.
[02:27:34] You should not stick with your plan.
[02:27:36] Yes, because it's going to change.
[02:27:37] Yes.
[02:27:40] One way is by redesignating the main effort.
[02:27:42] For example, if company has designated as the main effort but runs into heavy enemy resistance while adjacent company be makes a breakthrough that is exploits a critical vulnerability.
[02:27:50] The battalion commander may designate company be as the main effort.
[02:27:53] This new designation of company be as a main effort must not however be merely nominal.
[02:27:59] It means that the combat power which was supporting company A now shifts to company B.
[02:28:07] Identifying the main effort is the principle and most important answer to the question, how do we achieve a decision?
[02:28:16] Boldness and ruthlessness. You want to hire you a decision? Here's how you do it. Forcing a successful decision requires the commander to be bold and ruthless.
[02:28:27] Boldness refers to daring and aggressiveness in behavior.
[02:28:31] It is one of the basic requirements for achieving clear cut outcomes.
[02:28:35] In order to try for victory, must dare to try for victory.
[02:28:38] We must have a desire to win big even if we realize that in many situations the conditions for victory may not yet be put.
[02:28:45] Wooflessness refers to pursuing the established goal mercilessly and single-mindedly.
[02:28:52] This double-important. This is double-important once we gain an advantage.
[02:28:57] Once we have an advantage, we should exploit it to the fullest.
[02:29:00] We should not ease up but increase the pressure.
[02:29:03] Victory and combat is really a product of the initial plan, but rather of ruthlessly exploiting any advantage no matter how small until it succeeds.
[02:29:13] That's where a lot of people want to stop listening.
[02:29:18] That sounds so fired up that they think,
[02:29:23] Bold and ruthless. That's how it goes from now on.
[02:29:28] Then we get into the dichotomy. Bold and ruthless.
[02:29:32] Boldness and ruthlessness must be accompanied by strong leadership and tempered by sound judgment.
[02:29:41] Without these qualities, boldness can become recklessness and ruthlessness can be distorted into cruelty.
[02:29:51] So, yes, there is a dichotomy in every aspect of leadership.
[02:29:57] And if you go too far in one direction or the other, you will fall apart and fail.
[02:30:04] Can you have too much sound judgment?
[02:30:09] Oh, yes, you can. You can sit there and wait to make the perfect judgment.
[02:30:14] That's what's got to be balanced.
[02:30:17] So, be careful. Conclusion.
[02:30:22] As marine leaders, whether of fire teams or of a marine expeditionary force, we are responsible for achieving success.
[02:30:29] As you pointed out earlier, what are you going to get graded on?
[02:30:32] If you're successful, that's how we're grading you. We don't care how you did it.
[02:30:37] In combat, the success we seek is victory.
[02:30:42] Not merely a partial or marginal outcome that first stalls the final reckoning, but a victory that settles the issue in our favor.
[02:30:51] To be victorious, we must work ceaselessly in peace time to develop in ourselves a talent for military judgment.
[02:30:58] The ability to understand a situation in act decisively, military judgment results from the wisdom gained from experience.
[02:31:06] It allows us to identify patterns of activity and to concentrate our efforts against a critical vulnerability that will bend the enemy to our will.
[02:31:16] We must sharpen our ability to make decisions intuitively based on our understanding of the situation.
[02:31:25] Boom.
[02:31:26] So we just did two chapters. I thought we were going to get through three, but we didn't.
[02:31:33] So we'll hit the other.
[02:31:37] What is there?
[02:31:39] Eight, nine, no there's eight chapters. There's eight chapters in this book. We got through two.
[02:31:44] We'll do the next two on the next one.
[02:31:47] All kinds of things that sort of lessons learned inside this.
[02:31:57] And you know, we covered that part that was about stacking the deck in your favor, skilled commander seeks victory from the situation.
[02:32:07] That's what we're trying to do. We're trying to stack the deck in our favor.
[02:32:11] Trying to be ready, trying to be prepared.
[02:32:16] Not just for combat, obviously, but for life, for business, for family.
[02:32:26] Any recommendations from you, Dave?
[02:32:30] I do have some recommendations on being prepared.
[02:32:34] And yeah, combat, for sure, business, for sure, and in life, for sure.
[02:32:45] Origin USA.
[02:32:49] Origin Maine.
[02:32:51] So you started Jiu-Jitsu how long ago?
[02:32:56] Just over a year ago.
[02:32:59] It's only been a year.
[02:33:00] Yeah, probably a year and four months, I guess.
[02:33:03] Okay. So, just not maybe about two months before the Origin camp last year got it.
[02:33:09] Which is coming up next month.
[02:33:11] How often do you overlay what you see in Jiu-Jitsu over everything else that you're doing in your life?
[02:33:18] All the time.
[02:33:21] I'm always a little cautious about talking about it because I'm inexperienced.
[02:33:26] But if you're asking me how often I think about it and how often I make the connection to it,
[02:33:32] and I say all the time, I mean it all the time.
[02:33:35] And now there's another layer to that.
[02:33:37] So I got my kids started on Jiu-Jitsu.
[02:33:40] About six months ago.
[02:33:42] We had a little, we moved across country.
[02:33:44] We had a little gap in there, but I got them set up pretty quickly here.
[02:33:48] And last week that actually did a few weeks long Jiu-Jitsu camp.
[02:33:51] Sure.
[02:33:52] Where I'm actually making my money now is how much better I am at helping my kids starting to figure things out.
[02:33:59] Because they're doing the Jiu-Jitsu.
[02:34:01] And I'm actually sort of making connections for them about their lives.
[02:34:05] And look, they don't see it all.
[02:34:07] They don't.
[02:34:08] But the impact of that on my life goes well beyond my personal life right now.
[02:34:13] Kids and how impactful that is.
[02:34:15] And added the long list of regret in my life.
[02:34:18] If I had started when I was six years old, like my son,
[02:34:22] how different my life would be.
[02:34:24] But it is awesome, man.
[02:34:27] It's awesome.
[02:34:28] Yeah, it's good to be able to discuss things and be able to explain things.
[02:34:35] You have this incredible metaphor for everything.
[02:34:39] Yes.
[02:34:40] If you get that Jiu-Jitsu won't.
[02:34:42] I can't give my kids combat metaphors.
[02:34:45] But I can give them Jiu-Jitsu metaphors that they actually understand.
[02:34:50] And I'm amazed at how much more they understand than I thought.
[02:34:54] Because how they're young, they understand things.
[02:34:57] And you know the other thing is you can explain things to them.
[02:35:00] They don't understand it.
[02:35:02] They don't understand it.
[02:35:03] They understand it subconsciously.
[02:35:05] And when you make it conscious for them, and they go, oh, oh, I see.
[02:35:09] Oh, so I shouldn't just try and stay in this position.
[02:35:12] I should let that person move a little bit and look for an opening.
[02:35:14] Oh, okay.
[02:35:15] Kind of like when mom's telling me to do something,
[02:35:17] I shouldn't just get, just kind of hold the position.
[02:35:20] I should actually maneuver a little.
[02:35:22] Okay, I get it.
[02:35:23] I get it.
[02:35:24] Oh, I should, I should try and get in a good position.
[02:35:26] Hmm.
[02:35:27] Yeah.
[02:35:28] If you start Jiu-Jitsu, which you absolutely should,
[02:35:31] go to origin main.
[02:35:32] You're going to need a G, go to origin main.
[02:35:35] Get a G, four G Jitsu, get a rash guard, four G Jitsu,
[02:35:40] get workout, clothes, T shirts, get some jeans.
[02:35:45] We have origin jeans now.
[02:35:47] And they're super, they're super comfortable and super kick ass.
[02:35:53] So get yourself some of that.
[02:35:55] We have supplements.
[02:35:58] Join warfare.
[02:35:59] I just got an email yesterday from somebody that said,
[02:36:04] my mom wanted me to send you an email to say thank you
[02:36:09] because she's 71 years old and she's feeling awesome.
[02:36:15] And I was like, right, cool.
[02:36:18] Grandma's in again.
[02:36:20] So, during warfare, acrylic oil, discipline discipline go.
[02:36:23] I saw you take some discipline go prior to us starting this podcast.
[02:36:27] Discipline go.
[02:36:28] I might have developed a small addiction to discipline and discipline go.
[02:36:33] It's honestly the first supplement that I've taken.
[02:36:37] And I'm like, well, that it just works.
[02:36:42] This it works.
[02:36:44] And it's, I, so I travel a lot.
[02:36:48] I don't get it tonnously.
[02:36:50] You know, the lifestyle we live right now, we're moving.
[02:36:53] Pretty aggressively.
[02:36:54] And I have to be in the game.
[02:36:56] I can't show up.
[02:36:58] I'm like, hey, I'd love to give you my best today, but I'm tired.
[02:37:00] That's not part of the deal.
[02:37:02] And, you know, you can go with the frontal assault power through method.
[02:37:06] Or you can actually take something to help you out.
[02:37:09] This stuff is legit, man.
[02:37:11] It is legit.
[02:37:12] And yeah, I took it before this because, you know what?
[02:37:14] I wanted to be in the game.
[02:37:16] And how much on the milk train is the Burke family at this point?
[02:37:21] So here's another guy.
[02:37:22] So here's another guy.
[02:37:23] He went to your house and my home in the park.
[02:37:24] I was like, oh, this dude's got a problem.
[02:37:26] So here's the thing, man, is every time I think I'm on the train,
[02:37:29] I'm like, man, I'm so on the train and I'm like,
[02:37:31] I'm like, so on the mint and then the peanut butter,
[02:37:34] it actually took the strawberry milk to make me realize what it really means to be on the milk train.
[02:37:42] Because I, you know, I keep a little profile, you know,
[02:37:46] I, you know, I, echoes.
[02:37:48] I'm not the key spokesperson for, for milk, bro, when we got strawberry milk.
[02:37:53] That is a whole another level, man.
[02:37:55] And I was, you know, I did peanut butter and I kind of went back to,
[02:37:59] I, I had to, I have not gotten off the strawberry malt train yet.
[02:38:02] Yeah.
[02:38:03] It is still just, it's, it's so good.
[02:38:05] And everybody in the house, nobody wants to have the stuff right now.
[02:38:07] And I was, you know, I go back to this stuff because it's, it's good.
[02:38:10] I, I really liked that stuff.
[02:38:12] But strawberry right now is still at the top of the list.
[02:38:15] And it hasn't moved for a while.
[02:38:16] Yeah, I finally got off the strawberry train.
[02:38:19] Because, you know, because I got it before everyone else.
[02:38:21] Yeah, I was, I was, I was, I'm obviously, yeah.
[02:38:23] And then I was just so deep into it.
[02:38:25] And plus I was the, I was on the warrior kid strawberry milk.
[02:38:27] That's where it started.
[02:38:28] Yeah, I was already on that.
[02:38:30] So yeah, maybe like a week ago, I was having a little,
[02:38:34] a little lunchtime, hitter.
[02:38:36] And I, and I had some peanut butter.
[02:38:39] And I beat it.
[02:38:40] So anyways, hey, if you want to get some extra protein in your life,
[02:38:43] check out the, milk.
[02:38:45] Any of those flavors are really delicious.
[02:38:47] And we all warrior kid milk too, which is awesome for your kids.
[02:38:51] It's actually crazy that no one made it.
[02:38:55] It's actually crazy that no one made warrior kid milk before we did.
[02:38:58] Because here, oh, you want your kids to drink poison.
[02:39:02] That sounds like a good plan.
[02:39:04] Yeah.
[02:39:05] No one's feeding their kid poison, except for everyone that's feeding their kid,
[02:39:08] chocolate milk filled with sugar.
[02:39:10] No one thought of it.
[02:39:11] Cool.
[02:39:12] I did.
[02:39:12] Well, we'll just go with warrior kid milk.
[02:39:14] It's, it's tastes awesome.
[02:39:16] Your kids are going to love it.
[02:39:17] And you got chocolate white tea too.
[02:39:18] You can either get the dry peat, tea bags,
[02:39:20] or you can get it in a can.
[02:39:22] And you can crack that open.
[02:39:24] And by the way, right now we're drinking actually at this time,
[02:39:27] the, where I'm drinking the, the jocco discipline go in a can,
[02:39:32] and it's, so here's the thing.
[02:39:35] Same thing.
[02:39:36] If you are a parent, and you know that milk exists,
[02:39:39] you should not buy anything else because it's not good for your kids.
[02:39:43] It's not.
[02:39:44] I got the early sample of the go in a can.
[02:39:47] Got to try that a couple, about a month ago.
[02:39:50] Yeah.
[02:39:51] When this happens and you drink it, there is no reason to ever buy a
[02:39:55] carbonated beverage at any other type again.
[02:39:58] You should not, you should never buy seven up ever again.
[02:40:02] No, you won't, you won't buy seven up.
[02:40:04] You won't buy red bow.
[02:40:05] You won't buy a coke.
[02:40:06] You'll just buy this because it's actually good for you.
[02:40:08] Any, it tastes awesome.
[02:40:09] Mom, mom, all right, cool.
[02:40:10] So that's that.
[02:40:11] And also we do have a store that's called jocco store.
[02:40:16] The, is jocco store.com.
[02:40:19] And there we got rash guards and t-shirts and hats and hoodies.
[02:40:24] You got some women's gear too, by the way, my wife,
[02:40:26] every article of clothing she now owns has the origin logo on.
[02:40:30] Like everyone.
[02:40:31] And now that we're out in the west coast, the winter deer,
[02:40:33] winter deer here is a hoodie.
[02:40:35] Yeah, yeah.
[02:40:36] That's the shirt.
[02:40:37] And the women's hoodies are lid-like.
[02:40:38] Lightweight hoodie or we are still just regular hoodies.
[02:40:42] No lightweight hoodies yet.
[02:40:43] When he's still a little, she doesn't do lightweight.
[02:40:45] She's cold, she puts on the hoodie.
[02:40:47] I'm a lightweight guy now. I got both hoodies.
[02:40:49] I, I translate it.
[02:40:50] You just feel like the medium weight or the light weight one,
[02:40:52] which you were all echo put you on the spot.
[02:40:55] Yeah.
[02:40:56] Bro, are you like that right in front of me?
[02:40:58] He did.
[02:40:59] Yeah, he wants to, he's a valley.
[02:41:00] He will look into some validation.
[02:41:02] Yeah, he did.
[02:41:03] Echo channels.
[02:41:04] So yeah, you can get all that stuff.
[02:41:05] You can support the podcast.
[02:41:06] The book.
[02:41:07] Jocco store.com.
[02:41:08] Represent.
[02:41:10] What does that go say?
[02:41:11] Represent wall being on the path.
[02:41:14] That's what he says.
[02:41:15] He says it in like a sort of a really super dramatic way.
[02:41:20] If you want to represent,
[02:41:22] sometimes Echo takes long pauses like I do,
[02:41:25] but there's no sensibility to him.
[02:41:28] If they say if you want to represent wall,
[02:41:31] you're on the path.
[02:41:34] But hey, that's my brother, Nicole Charles.
[02:41:37] Hey, man.
[02:41:38] We have this podcast.
[02:41:39] Subscribe to it.
[02:41:40] It's whatever you subscribe to podcast.
[02:41:43] Leave reviews.
[02:41:45] Warrior kid podcast Dave.
[02:41:47] Dude, three more just came out a couple weeks ago.
[02:41:50] Burned with my kids were so fired up.
[02:41:52] Cause I had episode 14 on repeat in the car.
[02:41:55] Cause they will literally listen to those story podcast
[02:41:58] over and over again, even if they heard them.
[02:42:00] And we just got through three new ones in the last week.
[02:42:02] And they were fired up.
[02:42:04] The stories from Uncle Jake.
[02:42:07] So good.
[02:42:09] We just did it just today.
[02:42:12] The kid had the car.
[02:42:15] And the two other kids wanted that radio control car.
[02:42:18] But it was expensive.
[02:42:19] And there's two paths down to getting that car.
[02:42:21] One which was a little disciplined with your money.
[02:42:24] Save your money.
[02:42:25] Save a little bit here a little bit there.
[02:42:26] And at the end, you know what you get.
[02:42:28] You get the thing that you want.
[02:42:30] And there's other kid.
[02:42:31] And you use an example of ice cream on Fridays at school for a dollar.
[02:42:35] That literally is exactly what my kids get from.
[02:42:38] It's exactly that.
[02:42:39] There you go.
[02:42:40] That little delayed gratification.
[02:42:43] Yeah.
[02:42:44] Kids kids kids understand it man.
[02:42:46] I know they're young, but the story is they make sense to them.
[02:42:49] They internalize it.
[02:42:50] They understand it.
[02:42:51] They're not too young to figure out these life lessons.
[02:42:53] The classic parables of life that every kid you just wish.
[02:42:58] And I think they get so ingrained with the kids when they hear these stories.
[02:43:03] They're so relatable.
[02:43:04] And they go, oh yeah.
[02:43:05] It's like it's a embedded in them now.
[02:43:09] They understand that you have to delay gratification sometimes.
[02:43:13] For example, they truly understand that you have to make the right decision.
[02:43:17] They truly understand that the world doesn't set around them.
[02:43:19] They truly understand that you have to work.
[02:43:21] They, it embeds in their brains.
[02:43:23] So check out that warrior kid.
[02:43:25] Or your kid podcast.
[02:43:27] And if you want to help out a warrior kid, you can go to irishoksurans.com.
[02:43:30] And Aiden is a warrior kid.
[02:43:32] He's just working hard running a business at age of 13.
[02:43:36] He's making soap with goat milk.
[02:43:40] You can get that soap so you can stay clean.
[02:43:43] YouTube channel where echo makes legit videos in his opinion.
[02:43:49] Other people have that opinion as well.
[02:43:52] I do.
[02:43:53] Oh, you do.
[02:43:54] Oh, yeah.
[02:43:54] Oh, you're an echo Charles.
[02:43:55] Those videos are legit.
[02:43:57] Supporter.
[02:43:57] Big time.
[02:43:58] Do you think echo goes overboard from time to time?
[02:44:00] Yes, I do.
[02:44:01] Absolutely.
[02:44:02] To get out of balance.
[02:44:03] Every now and then.
[02:44:04] How many extra people do you have?
[02:44:05] How many explosions can there be?
[02:44:07] You know, jocco talk.
[02:44:09] Yeah.
[02:44:10] Where you say, okay, that was a bit much.
[02:44:12] Nine is over the limit.
[02:44:14] So there's that.
[02:44:17] There's, you know, if you subscribe to the YouTube channel,
[02:44:20] then you'll see them pop up and you can watch them.
[02:44:23] And you could, there's some of them are smaller.
[02:44:25] So you don't have to listen to it.
[02:44:26] Three hour podcast.
[02:44:27] Which, not everyone has done it.
[02:44:29] Understood.
[02:44:30] Psychological warfare.
[02:44:32] It's got.
[02:44:34] Little short excerpts, not even excerpts.
[02:44:37] There are little short statements from me.
[02:44:39] If you got a little weakness that you're trying to overcome,
[02:44:41] you can go to iTunes, Google Play,
[02:44:43] and be free to get those.
[02:44:44] And press play when you're about to take a hit.
[02:44:51] Go down the wrong path.
[02:44:53] Yeah.
[02:44:54] Take a step off the path.
[02:44:55] Yeah.
[02:44:55] Press play.
[02:44:56] Stay on the path.
[02:44:57] That's a good one.
[02:44:58] If you want a visual representation,
[02:45:00] you go to flipsidecampus.com.
[02:45:02] My brother, Dakota Meyer, he's running this business.
[02:45:06] He's making art for your wall.
[02:45:11] High quality.
[02:45:13] That say all kinds are good stuff on them.
[02:45:15] Things like good.
[02:45:16] Things like discipline, because freedom.
[02:45:18] So check it out.
[02:45:19] Flipsidecampus.com.
[02:45:20] You got on it.
[02:45:21] Who's making all kinds of good stuff?
[02:45:23] Check out there.
[02:45:24] Go to on it.
[02:45:26] Go to www.slaunch.com slash jocco and check out some of their various equipment.
[02:45:33] If you want plain equipment, you can get it there.
[02:45:36] If you are more like echo Charles,
[02:45:38] and you want to have the artistic things,
[02:45:40] and you can get that as well.
[02:45:42] Got some books.
[02:45:44] Yeah.
[02:45:45] Another thing that's on repeat in my house,
[02:45:48] are the warrior kid books.
[02:45:50] So, you have many knows.
[02:45:52] There's three of them out there.
[02:45:53] The warrior kid and Mark Smithian warrior kid three is out there.
[02:45:56] Where there's a will.
[02:45:57] That book has been read repeatedly.
[02:45:59] I get to the end.
[02:46:00] We go back to the beginning.
[02:46:02] Every now and then, it will be a detour back to one of the other books.
[02:46:05] One or two.
[02:46:06] But right now, three is on repeat in two of the three kids.
[02:46:08] Those books are our legit.
[02:46:11] And even Mikey and the dragons.
[02:46:13] Even that book, even though it's sort for younger kids.
[02:46:16] Another book that my kids love.
[02:46:18] Not just because they can read it themselves.
[02:46:20] But because they actually understand the message of the story.
[02:46:24] It's so legit.
[02:46:25] Those books are awesome.
[02:46:27] Those books are must not just for the kids,
[02:46:29] but for the parents reading a man.
[02:46:31] We got the Disponicals Reading Field Manual.
[02:46:34] If you want to check that out,
[02:46:36] it's a book that people take pictures of the book.
[02:46:41] Like they take pictures of the book.
[02:46:44] And I'll tell you, let me tell you a little something about this book.
[02:46:48] I'll tell you.
[02:46:50] Have you heard me talk smack about my publisher before?
[02:46:52] Your current publisher?
[02:46:54] My current publisher.
[02:46:56] Yeah.
[02:46:56] So occasionally I do that.
[02:46:58] Here's one example of me doing that.
[02:47:00] So inside, when you open it up,
[02:47:02] they give the credit to the design,
[02:47:08] cover design and get somebody that works there.
[02:47:12] They helped it up.
[02:47:14] I sent them this picture and said, okay, this is what it's got to look like.
[02:47:18] So it's, but they did do a great job of it.
[02:47:22] And it came out solid.
[02:47:24] It has black pages.
[02:47:26] They have to die.
[02:47:28] The edges black.
[02:47:30] It's a black book.
[02:47:31] It's called Disponicals Reading Field Manual.
[02:47:33] The publisher told me it was the biggest risk he ever took
[02:47:36] with publishing a book.
[02:47:38] Really?
[02:47:39] He said, I said, is this the risk he has book?
[02:47:42] He's always got not even close.
[02:47:43] Nothing's even close.
[02:47:44] Because there's no pre-existing book anything like that.
[02:47:47] So you're doing something completely outside,
[02:47:51] uncharted territory.
[02:47:53] I hope it worked out well for him.
[02:47:56] They worked out well.
[02:47:57] It actually worked out awesome.
[02:47:58] I appreciate everyone checking that out.
[02:48:00] It's a book that you know what?
[02:48:01] You see the big spike in sales is,
[02:48:05] toward a graduation time.
[02:48:07] People get it for, oh, the game.
[02:48:09] It's graduating school.
[02:48:10] Oh, here you go.
[02:48:11] Here's what you should do now that you're done with high school.
[02:48:13] Get on the path.
[02:48:14] So that's the free and discipline of course for you in Field Manual.
[02:48:17] The audio version of that is not unautable.
[02:48:19] It's on MP3.
[02:48:20] So I tune Zambus on Music, or Play Whatever.
[02:48:22] And then Xream ownership.
[02:48:24] Do the beginning, man.
[02:48:26] A lot of folks have read it.
[02:48:28] I know.
[02:48:29] So here's the thing about Xream ownership.
[02:48:30] Has to be read.
[02:48:31] Also good for younger kids.
[02:48:34] I actually read part of that stuff to my kids.
[02:48:36] They get it.
[02:48:37] But it's not.
[02:48:38] It's not everything.
[02:48:40] That and dichotomy together are,
[02:48:42] they have to go together.
[02:48:44] You have to read them both.
[02:48:45] They're critical and it explains how actually even with the lessons in that first one.
[02:48:49] You can go too far.
[02:48:50] On any of those principles you can go too far.
[02:48:52] You got to bring dichotomy into that understanding of Xream ownership.
[02:48:56] Lave was telling me maybe like a year ago.
[02:48:59] He goes, you know, I was just rereading Xream ownership.
[02:49:02] He goes, I've been like trying to figure out a way to say something.
[02:49:07] And then I read it and I was like,
[02:49:08] it's in there.
[02:49:10] Like the actual answers in there.
[02:49:12] He's like, I was trying to recreate a way or craft a way to say something.
[02:49:15] He's like, man, I forgot that.
[02:49:16] I even wrote this section or whatever.
[02:49:18] So yeah, check that out.
[02:49:20] And what about actual on front?
[02:49:22] Escalon front.
[02:49:24] The good deal Dave's story continues because I am on part of that team now.
[02:49:30] The lessons, all those things we just talked about,
[02:49:33] not just on this podcast, but in those books.
[02:49:35] Jago and Lave actually put together this company that I'm a part of.
[02:49:39] That takes all those leadership principles and we help companies solve problems.
[02:49:43] Every problem is solved through leadership.
[02:49:46] Everyone.
[02:49:47] And I'm part of a team that is not just caring just a good message,
[02:49:51] but a message that it can actually impact everybody's life business personal.
[02:49:55] Every aspect of it.
[02:49:57] Obviously you and Lave put in this together.
[02:49:59] Came a more to the JP Flint Cocker Mike Cerrelli.
[02:50:03] Mike Biamah Jason Gardner.
[02:50:05] The team is growing man.
[02:50:06] I'm so stoked to be on this team with those guys man.
[02:50:09] It is legit.
[02:50:10] How about a Yiff on line?
[02:50:12] Yiff on line is turned out to be even more important of a resource than I thought.
[02:50:16] Because one of the hardest things we have to chat.
[02:50:18] One of the hardest challenges we have is when we leave a company.
[02:50:21] We want to stay as connected to them as we can.
[02:50:23] And look, you're not there every day.
[02:50:25] Oh, even it's not like a rocky movie and we just get Paul pumped up.
[02:50:28] So that amazingly sometimes.
[02:50:30] Thanks more training than just just a rocky movie.
[02:50:32] Yeah, what it takes is reps hundreds and thousands of reps.
[02:50:37] And what Yiff online lets people do is get reps.
[02:50:40] Rep after rep after rep and that resource has proven.
[02:50:43] I knew it was going to be important.
[02:50:45] I didn't realize how important it was going to be.
[02:50:47] Not just to reach folks that can't spend time with us,
[02:50:50] but even once they spend time with us,
[02:50:51] what they need to do to reinforce the things that we're talking about.
[02:50:54] Yiff online is works in both directions.
[02:50:57] If we're not working with you, no factor.
[02:50:59] It's there.
[02:51:00] If we're working with you, they are realizing how important that is to stay connected to you.
[02:51:04] And it's legit.
[02:51:06] And then the mustard.
[02:51:10] I like listening to you talk about this stuff.
[02:51:12] For a lot of the mustard.
[02:51:14] Muster.
[02:51:15] I've probably said the word legit too many times,
[02:51:18] but I'm going to say it again.
[02:51:20] As a leadership conference, there's nothing like it.
[02:51:23] You have said an every single podcast.
[02:51:26] The mustard is going to sell out.
[02:51:29] And yet there are still people that towards the end of signing up,
[02:51:33] and we put some ask if they can go.
[02:51:35] Not only do the last one sell out,
[02:51:37] we got Denver coming up in September.
[02:51:39] It's almost sold out.
[02:51:41] Yeah.
[02:51:41] In September, we're actually looking.
[02:51:43] So we've got mustard in September coming up in Denver on September, 1920.
[02:51:48] We also have Sydney.
[02:51:50] December, fourth and fifth.
[02:51:52] Ask me how close we are to selling out Sydney.
[02:51:54] True close.
[02:51:55] We're going to sell out Sydney.
[02:51:57] And our first overseas mustard December, fourth and fifth.
[02:52:00] These events, these are the things that put,
[02:52:04] these are things that make the things we talk about.
[02:52:06] They make them real.
[02:52:07] They make them so really.
[02:52:09] You can take back from those two days and have so much to go do for yourself
[02:52:13] to make your life in your company better.
[02:52:15] There is not a better way to truly understand what it is that we're teaching.
[02:52:20] Then the mustard.
[02:52:22] It is legit from beginning to end.
[02:52:24] And it is made huge impact on folks lives.
[02:52:26] I can't say how many emails I get.
[02:52:28] I get.
[02:52:29] Got all the knows what you're getting of what the mustard meant to their life,
[02:52:32] to their to what it did for their life.
[02:52:34] They're all the next one coming up in Denver.
[02:52:37] Go while you still can.
[02:52:39] It's very awesome.
[02:52:40] It could be close.
[02:52:41] And then there's the F over watch, which is where we're taking.
[02:52:44] Proven leaders from special operations and from combat aviation.
[02:52:48] And we are placing them into civilian companies that need leadership.
[02:52:53] These guys are tested.
[02:52:56] They are proven.
[02:52:57] They've been in charge.
[02:52:58] They've led people.
[02:53:00] They've been under stress and pressure.
[02:53:02] And now they're looking for their next career.
[02:53:05] Why not have their next career.
[02:53:07] Be with you.
[02:53:08] Taking the principles that we talk about all the time and implementing them into your organization.
[02:53:14] EFO for watch.com.
[02:53:17] If you want to get involved with that.
[02:53:19] And if you want to discuss any of these topics further,
[02:53:22] you can actually find us on the in a webs.
[02:53:26] On Twitter, on Instagram, and on Dine, Foss and Bulkin.
[02:53:32] Dave is at David R. Burke, B.E.R. K.E. and I am at
[02:53:38] Jockawilik Dave and he closing thoughts.
[02:53:41] My closing thoughts is that I'm so stoked that I'm here right now.
[02:53:44] You're on the west coast and get the part of this man.
[02:53:47] Thank you.
[02:53:48] And to all you folks out there in uniform that are executing the tactics that we've
[02:53:54] been talking about today in order to keep our country free.
[02:53:58] Thank you.
[02:53:59] And to our police and law enforcement and firefighters and paramedics and EMTs and dispatchers and
[02:54:05] correctional officers and board patrol and secret service and all first responders.
[02:54:08] You know, I've heard a statement that when you hear an ambulance or you hear a fire,
[02:54:12] it's a reminder to you that you know, you're someone's having a worst day than you.
[02:54:17] And that's certainly true, but let me take it one step further because I actually don't
[02:54:21] think that when I hear that siren, I think about the people that are responding.
[02:54:27] Those firefighters, those paramedics, those police and they're going to put themselves
[02:54:33] in a harm to me.
[02:54:35] That's what I think about when I hear those sirens.
[02:54:38] So for those of you that do those jobs for living, thank you for keeping our home
[02:54:42] land safe and to everyone else out there.
[02:54:49] You got to remember where at war and you were at war and maybe not a war in the classic
[02:54:54] sense of the word that you're out there with a weapon and your fighting against a uniformed
[02:55:00] enemy.
[02:55:03] But make no mistake, life.
[02:55:06] And I know this might sound harsh, but life is war.
[02:55:09] It's a war against time, it's a war against weakness, it's a war against ego, it's a war against
[02:55:15] the most base part of you as a human being.
[02:55:23] So as the Marine Corps doctrine says actively and aggressively seek it out.
[02:55:29] And when the opportunity arrives, level every ounce of power, you can muster,
[02:55:35] pushing beyond the limits of exhaustion to achieve total victory.
[02:55:46] And until next time, this is Jockel and Dave out.