Jocko Podcast 17 - With Echo Charles | Band of Brothers | Losing the Fight

2016-04-06T06:54:19Z

Join in on Twitter/Instagram: @jockowillink, @echocharles 0:00:00 - Opening 0:08:33 - Book Review, "Beyond Band of Brothers", by Dick Winters 1:17:39 - Rough Transitions 1:25:54 - Jocko Podcast and Onnit Stuff 1:28:51 - Is Extreme Ownership the same as Apologizing? 1:33:30 - Can you be a "straight shooter" and not be a Jerk? 1:42:50 - Jocko's #1 Philosophical lesson from Jiu Jitsu. 1:55:20 - Overcommitment to a wrong opinion. 1:59:25 - What brought Jocko and Echo together. Echo's back story. 2:23:21 - Losing a fight, but going down swinging.

AI summary of episode

and we've actually I got people now that have started jiu jitsu because the podcast and they say oh I just did my first jiu jitsu class damn that was humbling it is extremely humbling you're gonna get be you're never gonna know everything you're always gonna be learning that there's other ways to do things and somebody that just started can come up with amazing techniques and that's humbling and there's other martial arts that have better moves that you need to pay attention to like wrestling has better take downs like sombo with the leg locks and catch wrestling some of those things that are better moves and you need to apply those and guess what you still need to know how to strike because it can be hard to take people down so you know how to how to strike and you can't be cocky and you can't be over confident because the bottom line is in jiu jitsu you will get beat and you will get beat by smaller guys by weaker guys by older guys you're gonna get beat and there's somebody that's better than you and if you don't like that or if your ego doesn't like that then you gotta find a new game to play yeah I feel like like just like how you were saying like we a lot of this we already knew we already know about state discipline we already know about all this stuff or whatever but coming from you it helps and then on top of that I'm really starting to really understand and feel is that you know all like you on Twitter like you engage you know you like someone asks your questions it seems like you're engaging a lot more so than if somebody asks me question I'm going to answer their question so if you add in that's what I like about you it kind of individualizes that person like I'm the guy who does that you know that good part so it gives them that confidence so it's kind of like yeah tell me more kind of attitude and then at the end doing like something along the lines of like yeah good thanks you know thanks for the time or whatever and then be like I got your back and I'll just go with one move for a long period of time you got to be careful that I need to be better about that discipline equals freedom so with you jitsu the more disciplined you are in training the more freedom you have on the mat so the more you train the more you work the more you drill the more you can move the more you can escape the more you can create the more you can finish you and not to mention the fear that it eliminates because like you know I'll like let's say you're not that discipline you take two weeks off a lot of time when you come back from that two weeks like you have that added element of nervousness like dang am I gonna gas or am I gonna get you know tapped out in front of everybody when you know when you know maybe there's a higher expectation on me or something like that this real matter fact but fun funny like kind of person whatever like but when I say matter fact I mean like um like that one this one tournament when uh it was kind of later where I lost two genre Roberts and you got me with a go-go plata and you know when you lose in jujitsu training and that was the first time I lost in since I went advance you know because those doing a lot of no-gui I had never lost and genre Roberts gets me with a go-go plata so instead of you saying hey you know it's okay here nothing like that you send me a text you're sitting across the arena you're right there you send me a text and it like almost like if I want to say something to to indicate that I'm going to blame someone or something it's almost like a red flag like I'm not allowed to do that in my own mind it's like it's hard in fast rule and like I said they just stand out like a sore thumb everywhere though on TV you know the guy not even my conversation you know so when I approach things like that now and also I think of all the good things that have been done like great things and just good things whatever if these people didn't do it because they didn't feel like it like these things when they got done you know I I say it all the time there's nothing new here and we're not given out any ground breaking techniques and there's no miracle drug and there's no three-minute exercise that's going to change your life I'm not selling the self-help reach your potential through this magical mystery I'm telling people what they already know and we're talking about things that people know to be right in their own heads like discipline and hard work and consistency those are the things and we all know those things but to everybody that's that's kind of known these things for a while but they've recently started to get after it good on you but first of all you know I thank people who spread the words and it's really good to hear that feedback it fires me up to hear the feedback and when people say I motivate them I'm always like you motivate me you know that motivates me that you're out there getting up at 5 a.m. and turning your life around I think that's awesome and also what I what I liked about this was they pointed out that this isn't just military or police or jiu jitsu players it's for pretty much anybody in any station in life and any job any age man or woman any country and as a matter of fact I was in England and my wife from England and when I was in England I went and saw one of my wife's friends who I'm friends with the husband and you know here's this woman who's I don't know 40 something years old right you gotta know when to tap you gotta know when to give up on a single battle so that you don't lose the whole war gotta train for worst case scenarios you gotta start with that person on your back gotta start with the person with you in an arm lock and training for combat you gotta train for those worst case scenarios where you're outnumbered you got a bunker position but you could still always tell that there are something behind the scenes you know you know Darrogens said like he's seeing you and he was like there's I don't know this guy you know it's kind of got that same feeling I have way more than me but kind of as a result of everything I feel like we're all kind of doing this together you know you know how the guys done in Australia they'll post all that you know a lot of people everyone they're posting there you know 430 a.m. wake up time to do this everyone yeah and then um yeah well funny is that you never came off like once like like new you like immediately you never came off as this super intense person like it was more like you were just sarcastic I tell how it is and if you don't like you kind of think and all right go ahead and do that but see how that works out for you know see how many people follow you see many people want to listen to you many people want to be around you even you know I like the indirect approach to next question joko what is the number one philosophical lesson that you've learned from jiu jitsu I don't really watch that much TV but those do that's maybe you know two hours or so that I could be reading something that's gonna help me through the rest of my life or getting better at something that's gonna help my you know relationships or career or something like that and I use that example because that seems pretty pretty like not in consequence because it's only two shows it's not like I spent 10 hours a day watching TV but if you're not ready to accept them you just won't accept them or they'll just go in one year and out the other and a lot of time that has to do with who's saying it so if like I don't know your neighbor some goof off he's drinking a beer smoking a cigarette he's like hey guess what you know you should do this and it's that it can be this great advice being like I'm not going to listen to you I'm not even a listen to you and it's there for a reason survival mechanism and all these ways but it's all that exists for an you know an environment that's not current so if you can basically be aware of that and combat that where don't do the immediate payoff things so just take take what you're about to do evaluated is this going to help me other than the pleasure that I think well whether that in regards to food drinking TV shows like if you watch reality TV check yourself on now and ask yourself is this going to help me in the future and typically that that answer for those types of things you're going to be know and then consider in alternative that you can do and a lot of the stuff can be pleasurable that will help you in the future and it's totally up to you it's totally up to you why not make the good choice right so the not feeling like it is no excuse that idea came in and so now like it morphed into this thing like me not feeling like it who guess what I'm going to do I'm going to do it so I've always been into working out and so me not feeling like working out is I've always felt like working out so as far as not feeling like it that wasn't really a factor but in a bunch of other things in life it was a factor and so so you're saying we're not feeling like doing this and why you're seeing yeah but you gotta be ready to adapt you gotta constantly improve your position you gotta have fun while you're doing it you gotta practice being in bad situations you gotta make your training is realistic as possible right these are all things I talk about these in all aspects of combat and in business and in life you gotta be physically fit to your mind stay sharp that's true true in jiu jitsu yeah it's say when it comes to listening to you this podcast all the you know the answers you have for these questions and any questions I even have it seems like it it comes and a process it way more readily than you know memes on Facebook or wherever you know say that that's awesome pretty true that's that's really cool that's that's great to hear and I've I mean I've definitely seen a transition in everything you're doing I mean everything you're doing is spot on otherwise I'm gonna leave myself a little bit of an out I'm not gonna just dig in on things that I can't be positive about because why would I why would I do that now when I end up being wrong if I do take a stance on something it's no big deal I'm gonna use that as an opportunity to show that I'm humble and show that I can admit when I'm wrong I'm gonna take advantage of a good I'm wrong good and you know so I would say just keep your options open keep an open mind when you feel yourself or your ego is digging in just check yourself and admit that you're wrong and move on and one thing I think that happens with people is people think that digging in and having a strong 100% opinion makes them a pure stronger or it makes their idea pure stronger and and which means I don't dig in on a lot because I'm not a 100% sure of much right who can be a 100% sure of a lot of things and when I do do that it's not that hard for me to realize that I'm wrong stifle my ego admit it in change course it's not that big of a deal to me when I like I said when I do dig in on a subject or on a decision it's because I know like almost to a 100% certainty that I'm right and I think that's all I've got for the night so thanks all you troopers out there tuning in and listening and thanks for remembering you know we started this off tonight with the statement of remembrance of some fallen warriors so thanks for remembering them remembering the past remembering war and the horror and the glory and the heroes thanks for remembering that and thanks for learning from them thanks for connecting with us through the interwebs you guys out there are opening my mind with the books that you're sending me the articles that you're sending me the videos you're sending me the connections you're making you're making us smarter so thank you and of course thanks for supporting the podcast listening downloading subscribing reviewing right reviews get on iTunes and write some reviews if you want if you feel like it

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Episode transcript

[00:00:00] This is Jocco podcast number 17 with echo Charles and me, Jocco Willink.
[00:00:07] It's been ten years since April 2nd 2006. Ten years since those of us in 4th
[00:00:17] Platoon huddled around the radio outside of an Iraqi army post near Camp Romadi trying
[00:00:23] to make sense of the confused and uncertain radio traffic of the exos calm and firm voice
[00:00:31] from the COC trying to determine what truck had been hit and who was missing.
[00:00:39] Ten years since we drove the road back towards the Gov Center with fear in our minds and
[00:00:45] hate in our hearts knowing we had lost close friends but not yet sure of the names.
[00:00:54] Ten years since I met my platoon commander on the dark and steps of the Gov Center as
[00:01:00] he came down from the COC and confirmed which truck it had been and when I pressed for
[00:01:06] who was gone he simply said all of them.
[00:01:13] He hadn't yet learned that one guy who was a fucking hard ass who wasn't going to let death
[00:01:20] take another marine that day and whose recovery has been an inspiration to all those
[00:01:25] men who know him.
[00:01:29] Ten years since I did my best to pass the word to my team with steadfastness but repeating
[00:01:37] all of them revealing me for the twenty year one year old I was through the tears I was
[00:01:45] trying to hold back.
[00:01:49] Ten years of trying to figure out what their sacrifice meant of shifting views on what
[00:01:55] it was all for in the end.
[00:01:58] That is something that is still a struggle but I've found solace and purpose in these
[00:02:05] facts.
[00:02:09] Staff Sergeant Eric McIntosh, Corporal Scott Procopio, Lance Corporal Kun, Young Kim and
[00:02:20] Hospital Men Giovanni Padilla were men who chose to be part of something bigger than
[00:02:27] themselves.
[00:02:28] Men who chose to enter a profession of crushingly hard work sacrifice and danger all
[00:02:34] for the simple purpose of protecting the men around them.
[00:02:39] Staff Sergeant Mack was the epitome of a fighting marine, a stud who exuded proficiency
[00:02:44] and professionalism, were also being humorous and approachable.
[00:02:50] Procopio is without a doubt when the finest men I've ever had the fortune of meeting,
[00:02:55] a beast of a marine who drove all around him with his enthusiasm and good nature.
[00:03:01] While we were peers, I looked up to him and his natural leadership.
[00:03:06] I still do.
[00:03:09] Kim had a quiet reliability about him.
[00:03:12] Unlike the usual loud, grigiriousness that people tend to associate with grunts, he
[00:03:17] was low key and dependable.
[00:03:20] And for some reason I can still see the way a smile would creep over his face when stupid
[00:03:25] shit was going on and he'd laugh in a way that made it seem like he was seeing a deeper
[00:03:30] joke that you didn't get yet.
[00:03:35] Doc Padillo was new to the company and my memories of him are vague, but the men who knew
[00:03:40] him better describe a young corpsman who was enthusiastic about his job.
[00:03:47] The funny thing with corpsman is that sometimes you don't need to know much to judge their
[00:03:52] character besides the fact that these young men volunteered for one specific duty.
[00:03:59] To save the lives of their marines in combat, a more honorable calling is hard to find.
[00:04:09] It's easy for today to be dark to get sucked into the trap of loss, regret, depression,
[00:04:16] and anger.
[00:04:19] It's easy to drown it in liquor under the pretence of having one for the boys.
[00:04:26] This morning as we prepare ourselves to face the tenth of these days, we think of Scott
[00:04:32] and his booming laugh.
[00:04:35] He wouldn't want us sitting around morning like saps, wasting our precious days, burdened
[00:04:40] with his death, like tormented widows out of some 19th century romance fiction.
[00:04:48] He'd remind us that we all joined up for the same reasons.
[00:04:53] We are infantry marines.
[00:04:56] We wanted to fight to energetically meet the enemy in battle and crush him.
[00:05:01] To serve beside men with whom we would build a bond stronger than most will ever know.
[00:05:09] While the politics are complicated and the outcomes unclear, one thing is certain.
[00:05:18] Their sacrifice was not in vain.
[00:05:23] It was the sacrifice that warriors make for each other.
[00:05:27] April 2nd is a day that defines us now, brings us together as brothers.
[00:05:34] It is a day of remembrance and reflection.
[00:05:38] A day that gives us reason to look at our lives and say, look, you son of a bitch.
[00:05:46] This is why you have to live life to the fullest.
[00:05:49] This is why you must fight every day to be a better man.
[00:05:55] And then we must just remember that Scott, Procopio, would call you a pussy for doing the
[00:06:03] opposite.
[00:06:07] For five jins, we will never forget you.
[00:06:22] So that was a post that someone forwarded to me that was on bread.
[00:06:30] It was from an anonymous marine.
[00:06:32] Obviously, this marine was from the three eight marines who we served with in Ramadi, who
[00:06:39] were just outstanding warriors.
[00:06:45] I thought that that tribute not only to the fallen, but also a form of council to his fellow
[00:06:58] marines.
[00:07:00] I just thought that that was an amazing piece of writing and I wanted to share it with everyone.
[00:07:10] April 2nd.
[00:07:15] Now speaking of Ramadi, which, you know, just like this marine, it's something that I think
[00:07:26] about all the time and something that I refer back to a couple of podcasts ago, we talked
[00:07:31] about the band of brothers, the first of the 506, who we also served with in Ramadi.
[00:07:39] And it is a truly hallowed unit.
[00:07:45] And if you've seen the HBO miniseries band of brothers, just a fantastic memorial and representation
[00:07:55] of these American fighting men.
[00:07:59] And the leader of that group, or one of the leaders of easy company and then of the
[00:08:05] battalion, was a guy by the name of Major Dick Winners.
[00:08:11] And he wrote after his, after he came famous, really, from the first book by Stephen
[00:08:22] Ambrose called Band of Brothers and then the miniseries came out, called Band of Brothers.
[00:08:29] He wrote a book, which is called Beyond Band of Brothers, the warm memoirs of Major Dick
[00:08:40] Winners.
[00:08:49] And I got to this book basically because I was going to do Band of Brothers, this Stephen
[00:08:54] Ambrose.
[00:08:55] But as everybody knows, or if you don't know, I like to get the source material from the
[00:09:00] people that were there.
[00:09:02] Stephen Ambrose is a historian.
[00:09:04] And so I identified this book as I was researching more deeply into Band of Brothers.
[00:09:11] I very quickly found this book, ordered it.
[00:09:14] And yeah, there's no doubt.
[00:09:18] So let me kick this off.
[00:09:28] As Battalion operations officer, Hester pointed to where an enemy machine gun was located
[00:09:33] in approximately where a four gun battery of 105s was situated.
[00:09:38] That was all he knew.
[00:09:40] Captain Hester turned to me and said, there's fire along that hedge road there.
[00:09:45] Take care of it.
[00:09:47] That was the sum of my orders.
[00:09:49] No detailed battle plan, no intelligence summary, nothing but a specific task to be accomplished
[00:09:54] without delay.
[00:09:57] Easy company's mission was to silence the battery.
[00:10:03] We talk about the basic principles of combat.
[00:10:05] One of them is simple, clear concise.
[00:10:07] There you go.
[00:10:08] That's your orders.
[00:10:09] There's fire along that hedge road.
[00:10:11] Take care of it.
[00:10:12] And this is also, obviously, an unbelievable example of decentralized command.
[00:10:17] You go solve this problem.
[00:10:19] And his response is I got it.
[00:10:22] Back to the book, conducting a mental estimate of the situation I viewed any infantry
[00:10:27] assault on the battery as a high risk opportunity since our air forces had failed to destroy
[00:10:31] the artillery battery in the preliminary bombardment prior to the seaborn invasion.
[00:10:37] Our key would be initiative and immediate appraisal of the situation, skillful use of the terrain
[00:10:43] and our ability to destroy one gun at a time.
[00:10:48] So you'll notice, he's going to, as soon as he knows that there's multiple guns, what
[00:10:52] does he decide to do?
[00:10:54] One gun at a time, solve one problem at a time.
[00:10:57] Little something we like to call a prioriortized and execute.
[00:11:02] The first thing I did was have everybody drop all equipment except ammunition and grenades.
[00:11:07] So that was all we would need if things went from good to bad.
[00:11:11] To get rid of the things you don't need.
[00:11:13] Focus on this one task that we've got right now.
[00:11:15] It's another prioritized and execute orger right there.
[00:11:19] While the non-commissioned officers prepared the men for the assault, I conducted a hasty
[00:11:23] reconnaissance of the enemy position.
[00:11:26] A leader gains an advantage in combat if he's able to appraise the terrain and the situation
[00:11:30] quickly and correctly.
[00:11:33] Crawling along the hedge road, I moved to a position where I could get a better view of the
[00:11:36] enemy position.
[00:11:37] The guns appear to be set in the trench and the head road covered by a machine gun
[00:11:42] fire from across an open pasture.
[00:11:44] The battery was firing directly down, causeway number two in the direction of Utah Beach
[00:11:49] where the initial waves of the fourth infantry division were already landing.
[00:11:54] So you've got these German guns in an elevated position hammering Utah Beach where the fourth
[00:12:01] infantry division is trying to land right now.
[00:12:03] It's a nightmare.
[00:12:05] It's anticipating that it would be too costly to conduct a frontal attack across an open
[00:12:10] field.
[00:12:11] I determined our chances of success would be greatly enhanced if we could hit the enemy
[00:12:16] on the flank and silence one gun at a time.
[00:12:21] Hit the enemy on the flank.
[00:12:24] Again, these are basic principles and I hate calling, I hate using the word basic, because
[00:12:29] it's fundamentals.
[00:12:30] It's nothing basic about it.
[00:12:32] It's basic, but it's beautiful.
[00:12:35] It's simplicity.
[00:12:39] Returning to the company, I assign specific missions to each man.
[00:12:44] So everybody knows what their task is going to be.
[00:12:47] First I placed one of easy companies to machine guns in a position where they could
[00:12:50] provide a covering fire as we move carefully into position.
[00:12:54] Cover and move.
[00:12:57] Next I divided our detachment into two units, one led by Lieutenant Buck Compton and the
[00:13:02] other remaining with me.
[00:13:06] Compton moved down one headrow with Sergeant Garnier and Malarke to get his close to the
[00:13:10] first gun in the battery as possible, while I led my unit down a parallel headrow.
[00:13:17] Compton also sent Sergeant Slipton and Rainy to conceal position to put flanking fire on
[00:13:23] the enemy while my detachment crawled across the open field to approach the gun first.
[00:13:29] Once you've got multiple covering move situations going on right now, and again to the
[00:13:34] military folks that are listening this, you could breeze through this description and miss
[00:13:40] how important that is, how important and what a great example of covering move this is,
[00:13:45] got to put down that cover fire, you got to put down that cover fire and that's why
[00:13:48] you got to bring them heavy weapons out there, bring those AWs out boys.
[00:13:52] Lots of them.
[00:13:56] In my group, back to the book, when my group consisting of Corporal Joe Toy, PFC Robert
[00:14:01] Pop-I-Win, and private Gerald the Rain from Regimental Headquarters, reached the hedge that
[00:14:07] led to the enemy position and we stopped.
[00:14:10] Here I placed a second machine gun to engage the first gun that was firing point blank
[00:14:13] at us.
[00:14:14] I gave the gun instructions and not to fire unless he saw a definite target so he would
[00:14:18] not give away his position.
[00:14:20] Then we worked our way up to Compton's headrow.
[00:14:22] Here I spotted a German helmet and squeezed off two rounds.
[00:14:26] Later I found a pool of blood at this position, but no Jerry.
[00:14:30] Jerry's term for German.
[00:14:33] Next I sent Compton with two men along the hedge to throw a hand grenades at the enemy
[00:14:36] position while the rest of us supported him with covering fire.
[00:14:40] These guys don't do anything without covering fire.
[00:14:45] I fired occasionally to fill spots when there was a low in the covering fire due to putting
[00:14:50] in new clips.
[00:14:52] Compton took too long getting his detachment into position and we spent more ammunition
[00:14:56] than we should have, but in return we received no enemy fire.
[00:15:00] That covering fire, even though it took too long, but they didn't receive any enemy
[00:15:05] fire because they were laying down that fire.
[00:15:07] They were laying down that covering fire.
[00:15:10] Just as Compton was ready to hurl his grenades, I started across the field with the rest
[00:15:14] of the assault team.
[00:15:16] So that what we jumped in the position together as the grenades exploded.
[00:15:20] And simultaneously we heard additional grenades at the next position.
[00:15:24] In return we received substantial smaller arms fire and grenades from the enemy.
[00:15:29] As we approached the first gun, Papai win was hitting the butt and fell down in the trench.
[00:15:35] Rather than complaining that he was hit, he apologized.
[00:15:39] I'm sorry Lieutenant, I goofed, I goofed, I'm sorry.
[00:15:45] My God, it's beautiful when you think of a guy who is so dedicated to his company that
[00:15:49] he apologizes for getting hit.
[00:15:52] Now he was a soldier hit by enemy fire in Normandy on D Day behind German lines.
[00:15:59] And he's more upset that he'd let his buddies down than he was concerned with his own injury.
[00:16:05] Papai's action.
[00:16:07] Papai's actions spoke for all of us.
[00:16:11] Now I'm fast-forwarding a little bit to get these guns taken down.
[00:16:18] With the entire battery now destroyed, we now withdrew because the machine gun fire that
[00:16:24] we were receiving from the matterhouse and other positions remained intense.
[00:16:28] I pulled our own machine guns out first, then the rifleman.
[00:16:32] I was last to leave, and as I was leaving, I took a final look down the trench, and there
[00:16:37] was one wounded Jerry trying to put a machine gun onto into operation.
[00:16:42] I drilled him through the head.
[00:16:44] On our way back, I came across warn officer, J.G. Andrew Hill, who had been killed working
[00:16:49] his way up to help us.
[00:16:52] In all, we had suffered four dead, six wounded, and we had inflicted 15 dead and 12 captured
[00:16:58] enemy.
[00:17:00] German forces in the vicinity of the battery had outnumbered about 50.
[00:17:04] About three hours passed since I had received the order to dispose of the battery.
[00:17:11] And then, so they take care of that, they conduct some other smaller operations, and then
[00:17:16] it goes to the end of D-Day.
[00:17:21] At long last D-Day was over, our success had been to superb leadership at all levels, and
[00:17:29] the training we had experienced prior to the invasion.
[00:17:32] Add luck to the equation, an easy company comprised of formidable team.
[00:17:38] In reflection, we were highly charged.
[00:17:41] We knew what to do, and we conducted ourselves as part of a well-oiled machine.
[00:17:47] Because we were so intimate with each other, I knew the strengths of each of my troopers.
[00:17:52] This is something that he refers back to a lot, was really understanding his men, what
[00:17:59] they were like, what drove them, what their strengths and weaknesses were, so he could
[00:18:02] put them in the correct positions.
[00:18:07] Being allowed us a few minutes of quiet reflection.
[00:18:11] With our outposts in place, I stretched out to catch a few hours of sleep, even though
[00:18:16] the rattle of German small arms fire continued throughout the night.
[00:18:22] Before I dosed off, I did not forget to get on my knees and thank God for helping me
[00:18:27] live through this day, and to ask his help on D-Plus One.
[00:18:33] I would live this war one day at a time, and I promised myself that if I survived,
[00:18:38] I would find a small farm somewhere in Pennsylvania countryside and spend the remainder
[00:18:43] of my life in quiet and peace.
[00:18:54] Now, as you hear about Dick Winners, and that's, I wanted to cover at least one
[00:19:02] engagement, one actual engagement, and that's one of them, so you can kind of see the methodology,
[00:19:08] the principles that he's putting into action.
[00:19:11] But I want to concentrate not so much on the action now, but more on the leadership,
[00:19:16] the leadership pieces of it.
[00:19:18] Although there's still, I still do talk about some of the combat situations that they
[00:19:23] get into, because they were in a war.
[00:19:29] And I want to check in going back a little bit from where he came from, what his mindset,
[00:19:34] what developed it, and he says this, I had a wonderful mother, very conservative.
[00:19:42] She came from a men and night family, but never converted to that faith.
[00:19:46] Honesty and discipline were driven into my head from day one.
[00:19:55] At some point, I'm just going to have to stop like even accenting these things.
[00:20:00] These common themes that are just run through these leaders, not surprisingly, mother was
[00:20:10] undoubtedly one of the most influential people in my life.
[00:20:14] A mother takes a child, she nurtures him, she instills discipline, and she teaches respect.
[00:20:21] My mother was the first one up every morning.
[00:20:27] She prepared breakfast for my sister and in me, and she was the last one to bed every
[00:20:32] evening.
[00:20:35] In many respects, she was the ideal company commander.
[00:20:39] And subconsciously, I'm sure I patterned my own leadership abilities on this remarkable
[00:20:44] woman.
[00:20:47] So it's interesting, all he talked about was that she was the first one to work, and
[00:20:52] she was the last one to leave work, meaning she was the first one up in the morning,
[00:20:55] and she was the last one to leave.
[00:20:57] And with that statement alone, he said that she's the ideal company commander.
[00:21:02] Now, for those of you that aren't the military, your company commander is there's several
[00:21:07] companies in a battalion, there could be three, maybe four, maybe even five, depending on
[00:21:11] the task organization.
[00:21:12] But it's a hundred, maybe 150 guys generally in a company.
[00:21:17] So he's saying that this, that his mom would be an ideal company commander.
[00:21:23] Why?
[00:21:24] Because she wakes up early and has a lot of discipline.
[00:21:29] Newsflash.
[00:21:32] Now, speaking of, yeah, I won't read any more actions.
[00:21:37] Here's another action.
[00:21:39] I positioned men on both sides of the road and prepared to move out in order to secure
[00:21:44] the intersection.
[00:21:45] Here they are on a move, they're got to secure an intersection.
[00:21:49] Lieutenant Wells led first platoon at the head of the company, column.
[00:21:53] Precisely on schedule, I hollowed Wells move out.
[00:21:57] Just as the attack started, a German machine gun located in a building at the foot of the
[00:22:01] hill started to fire up the road.
[00:22:03] The German gun crew is in perfect position at the perfect time to wipe out our entire
[00:22:09] attack.
[00:22:11] On the left hand side of the road, Wells pushed six men towards the intersection.
[00:22:17] They went straight at that intersection and the enemy machine gun.
[00:22:22] The enemy fire, however, was very effective.
[00:22:25] Our men on both sides of the road kept low profiles and the ditches, heads down and they
[00:22:30] frozen place, leaving Wells and his six men assaulting the intersection alone.
[00:22:36] Using my rear, Colonel Strayer and his staff, including Captain Hester and Nixon, could
[00:22:42] see what was happening.
[00:22:44] They in turn were hollowing at me, get them moving, winners get them moving.
[00:22:49] I struggled out of my harness to rid myself of excess equipment so that I could run.
[00:22:55] Since it was obvious what needed to be done.
[00:22:58] So guess what, people aren't moving, people aren't taking action and it's obvious to
[00:23:02] him what needs to be done.
[00:23:04] Looking at the middle of the column on the right hand side of the road, I hollowed, move
[00:23:08] out, move out.
[00:23:09] This did no good.
[00:23:10] Everyone had his heads down.
[00:23:13] This was the one and only time in the war that I really blew my top and physically kicked
[00:23:19] ass.
[00:23:20] I came out of that ditch with only my M1 in hand and haulering.
[00:23:24] I ran to the head of the column, kicked ass on the left side of the road, then ran to the
[00:23:28] right side of the road, back and forth, screaming at my top of my voice, get going.
[00:23:33] I will never forget the surprise and fear on those faces looking up at me.
[00:23:37] With me running around on the road like a wild man, the machine gunner seemed to zero in
[00:23:41] on me.
[00:23:42] I was a wide open target.
[00:23:44] The bullet snapped by and glanced off the road all around me.
[00:23:49] For a short time, I had the feeling of being blessed.
[00:23:54] That feeling didn't last too long for hours to find out in a few minutes that I wasn't
[00:23:57] so blessed.
[00:24:03] And the reason I highlighted that section right there, because in the next literally the next
[00:24:07] page in the book, you get this idea, and again, this is the idea that people have of military
[00:24:13] leaders.
[00:24:14] Is that they're these hard ass guys and these kick ass guys that are running around
[00:24:18] and yelling like what I just read.
[00:24:22] I wanted to highlight that because now we fast forward one page in the book.
[00:24:30] And taking the intersection, easy companies sustain ten casualties.
[00:24:35] Among our wounded were Sergeant Lippden, Ed Tipper, and Burr Smith.
[00:24:40] Another casualty was Private Albert Belive, who was in the aid station sitting with his
[00:24:46] back against the wall when I entered to have my wound cleaned, because by the way, major
[00:24:52] winners got hit.
[00:24:54] And so he's in there getting his wound cleaned.
[00:24:57] Now he's looking at Private Blife, and he says here, I did not notice any wounds.
[00:25:03] So I asked how are you doing, Blife?
[00:25:06] I can't see, I can't see he replied.
[00:25:10] I remember trying to comfort him by saying it's okay, Blife, relax, they'll have you out
[00:25:15] of your soon and they'll send you back to England.
[00:25:19] As I started to move away, Blife stood up suddenly saying, I'm okay, I'm okay, I can
[00:25:24] see now.
[00:25:28] As soon as Blife regained his vision, he immediately returned to duty.
[00:25:32] If you think about that for a minute, that boy had been paralyzed by fear.
[00:25:37] Yet he had the guts and dedication to stick to his buddies in easy company.
[00:25:41] As soon as he relaxed and pulled himself together, he returned to the front, rather than
[00:25:45] taking the easy way out, with an evacuation.
[00:25:50] Sometimes all a soldier needed was a calm voice reassuring him that everything was fine.
[00:25:58] In Blife's case, he rejoined the company and was wounded in action during the upcoming
[00:26:03] fight.
[00:26:05] After World War II, he served in the 187th Airborne Regiment in the Korean War where
[00:26:10] he was awarded a silver star and the bronze star.
[00:26:14] By the time he retired from military service, Blife was a company first sergeant.
[00:26:20] So, the contrast there is that, instead of pulling a general George Patton and slapping
[00:26:28] the guy around and saying, you're not wounded, he realized what he needed to do, which was
[00:26:31] just comfort the guy.
[00:26:32] Say, hey, listen, everything's okay.
[00:26:33] We'll get you on a plane, we'll get you back to England, just take it easy.
[00:26:39] Here's a section that I'm just going to jump too quickly when he's talking about the confusion
[00:26:45] getting in the confusion getting our men into position was as bad as we were to ever see.
[00:26:52] One time I found easy company troops firing into troops of another battalion.
[00:26:57] Later we had some tanks show up for support and they began firing into our own mind.
[00:27:06] So that's Blue On Blue, it's Fratur side and we talk about it in our book and it's one
[00:27:14] of those things that they usually don't show it.
[00:27:18] They usually don't portray it because it's hard to believe that things can get that confusing,
[00:27:24] but they do.
[00:27:26] And it goes all the way back.
[00:27:30] And clear example right there.
[00:27:36] Now we're going back to Blife and this is an interesting commentary on training.
[00:27:42] And one of our daylight patrols led by Sergeant Garnier, Blife was point man when he spotted
[00:27:48] a German sniper in a tree.
[00:27:52] Just as he did in training, he automatically said bang, bang instead of dropping to the side
[00:27:58] of the road and putting his rifle on the sniper.
[00:28:02] So if you can imagine you're back in America or when they were doing their pre-attack training
[00:28:08] in England and they weren't using real bullets, so they're out on a patrol and if they
[00:28:12] saw something, they'd go bang, bang.
[00:28:14] Well, that's literally what the guy did.
[00:28:18] The German reacted first and shot Blife through the collarbone, the rest of the patrol,
[00:28:23] recovered Blife and then withdrew to easy lines.
[00:28:28] So again, military people that are listening, law enforcement, you train how you fight,
[00:28:36] and you fight how you train.
[00:28:38] So you just gotta keep that in mind all the time.
[00:28:40] If you're giving yourself some kind of a training scar by doing something like a lip gun,
[00:28:46] we actually did this in the sealed team.
[00:28:47] Lip gun, that's what we call it, it's embarrassing.
[00:28:50] In my early days, that's what we want to have a choice.
[00:28:52] Like what you make sound like a band.
[00:28:53] Like bang, bang, yeah, you're mouth.
[00:28:55] Yeah.
[00:28:56] And thankfully now they have unbelievable good systems, the paintball type systems that go in
[00:29:03] our real guns, the laser tag type systems, so we don't have to use lip guns.
[00:29:14] Back to the book, next sector.
[00:29:18] Success breeds confidence and easy company success and normandy instilled the confidence
[00:29:23] that they would need to succeed and live to fight another day.
[00:29:27] At the same time, I could not help but think that had I trained the men harder.
[00:29:35] If I had done a better job, maybe more of my men would have come home.
[00:29:42] That's something a leader is always going to be thinking, always going to be thinking that.
[00:29:47] What could we have done better?
[00:29:48] What could I have done better?
[00:29:52] Now they get back to England, they're taking a break, they get pulled off the line,
[00:29:57] and he's back in Al, and Aldborn.
[00:30:00] He's just talking about he's sort of reflecting back on his initial push into Europe.
[00:30:10] You know you got guys there out drinking and doing whatever they're doing, and he says,
[00:30:15] ask for myself, I relaxed the best I could.
[00:30:19] Combat had made me tense, particularly since my decisions now meant life or death to the
[00:30:24] members of my command.
[00:30:28] Commanding soldiers and combat requires a personal detachment from the men themselves.
[00:30:34] In a sense, command is the loneliest job in the world.
[00:30:40] Looking at myself in the mirror, I could see how much I had changed, I could sense it.
[00:30:47] Another thing that affected me was the importance of discipline.
[00:30:52] The necessity of instilling discipline to my troops and getting the job done in combat.
[00:31:03] In an attempt to escape the tension that combat had caused, I developed a heavier than
[00:31:08] usual exercise regimen, and I attended church on a regular basis.
[00:31:14] There were only a few days that I didn't run two to three miles, two 80 pushups, 60
[00:31:19] situps on a foot locker, that a couple of splits and some leg and trunk exercises after
[00:31:23] the day's work was over.
[00:31:26] As a result, I kept in pretty good shape, not what I'd call wrestling shape, but good
[00:31:30] enough for army work.
[00:31:33] Physical activity kept me mentally alert, built my endurance, and kept me supple.
[00:31:46] You got to do it.
[00:31:48] You got to have that discipline and you got to work out.
[00:31:50] You got to do it every day.
[00:31:52] It's that important.
[00:31:55] Yeah, see how I mentioned how it kept him mentally sharp.
[00:31:58] It absolutely does.
[00:31:59] Yeah, it's it that before that's one of the few things that you can do that affects everything
[00:32:05] and everything in life.
[00:32:07] You are correct.
[00:32:08] I think people a lot of time in regards to exercise people think, well, exercise, that's
[00:32:13] for a certain kind of person.
[00:32:14] You know, maybe a fitness person or something like that.
[00:32:17] That's for a dumb joke, right?
[00:32:19] I'm a smart person.
[00:32:20] I'm not going to exercise long answer.
[00:32:22] Yeah, I think nowadays people are more hip to it for sure, but do you say hip?
[00:32:26] Hitman, down, down with the cause, the new stuff.
[00:32:30] Yeah, yeah.
[00:32:31] But yeah, it is interesting how these leaders back then, they knew that.
[00:32:37] Yep, even though there's been no, even though at that time there's been no scientific
[00:32:41] study, their scientific study is now that proved it.
[00:32:44] He didn't know that.
[00:32:45] He just knew it.
[00:32:46] Yeah, he felt that he lived it.
[00:32:47] Now, they're in a position now, again, I'm just fast forward.
[00:32:56] And even though I said I wasn't going to cover too much in the combat, I'm covering
[00:32:59] the combat.
[00:33:00] Because the combat is what puts these people in these leadership positions.
[00:33:06] Combat is the ultimate teacher, the harshest teacher, and the teachers you lessons that you
[00:33:11] do not forget.
[00:33:15] So they're around this village of foi, which is a village that was held by the Germans
[00:33:20] and they'd been waiting.
[00:33:22] And they'd been a while.
[00:33:27] And here's winners talking about, here's winners talking about his troops.
[00:33:34] They were now completely exhausted.
[00:33:38] They had had no hot food, little sleep, no rest, constant tension, and the pressure of
[00:33:43] combat.
[00:33:46] The worst time was night when temperatures plummeted and fog covered the battlefield until
[00:33:51] mid-delate morning.
[00:33:53] The uncertainty of what lay just yards ahead in the next treeline was sufficient to break
[00:33:59] ordinary men.
[00:34:01] Not surprisingly, the men became physically exhausted.
[00:34:07] Physical exhaustion leads to mental exhaustion, which in turn causes men to lose discipline.
[00:34:13] Laws of self-discipline then produces combat fatigue.
[00:34:20] Self-discipline keeps a soldier doing his job.
[00:34:25] Without it, he loses his pride, and he loses the importance of self-respecting the
[00:34:29] eyes of his fellow soldiers.
[00:34:32] It is pride that keeps a soldier going and keeps him in the fight.
[00:34:38] This is what I feared I would lose, the loss of will to measure up to my men.
[00:34:45] After seeing others break down, you wondered who is next, and you started taking a hard look
[00:34:50] at yourself.
[00:34:54] I often wondered why I didn't break under the strain of combat.
[00:35:02] One factor undoubtedly lay in the fact that my battalion headquarters lay 75 yards behind
[00:35:07] the Ford Foxholes.
[00:35:10] No longer was I under enemy observation.
[00:35:14] Consequently, I was able to concentrate on my duties without fear of enemy small arms
[00:35:18] fire.
[00:35:20] Another factor was undoubtedly my physical conditioning.
[00:35:25] I don't think there was a man in the battalion who was in better physical shape than I
[00:35:28] was.
[00:35:30] My responsibility to ensure the safety of the soldiers also hardened me to cope with the daily
[00:35:35] stress of combat.
[00:35:41] One last observation on combat fatigue.
[00:35:45] When you see a man break, he usually slams his helmet down and messes up his hair.
[00:35:50] I don't know if it's conscious or unconscious, but a soldier goes to his head and massages
[00:35:55] his head, shakes it, and then he's gone.
[00:35:59] You can talk to him all you want, but he cannot hear you.
[00:36:02] When he reaches that point, the best thing for everybody is just to let him take a walk.
[00:36:08] Combat exhaustion occurs instantaneously.
[00:36:11] You don't plan to become a combat fatigue casualty.
[00:36:16] How do you prevent combat fatigue?
[00:36:19] You talk to your troops and make some excuse to pull a soldier off the front line.
[00:36:24] Of course pulling a soldier off the front line increases the stress of those who remain,
[00:36:29] but is a necessary trade-off.
[00:36:31] I often asked a soldier who might saw on the verge of a breakdown, how about coming back
[00:36:37] with me to the CP to help out for a couple of days?
[00:36:40] In this manner, you invent a reason for pulling a guy from the line without damaging his
[00:36:45] psyche.
[00:36:46] So, bunch of stuff there on combat fatigue.
[00:36:53] I'm not saying that you're going to see combat fatigue in the civilian world.
[00:36:58] But you do see people get stressed out in business.
[00:37:02] I thought that that common about people messing up their hair and grabbing their head.
[00:37:08] That's a really good indicator of when people are breaking.
[00:37:14] I'll tell you one of the things, this is something that we talk about of the book, as
[00:37:18] well as for us, the guys that had the most resistance to combat fatigue with a
[00:37:28] guy that were most inturately involved in the planning of the operations.
[00:37:35] They felt like they had control.
[00:37:37] Unfortunately, we didn't know this.
[00:37:39] We had guys that weren't involved, maybe they were new guys, or they just weren't that
[00:37:44] involved in the planning or whatever.
[00:37:46] All they were getting told was like, hey, get your gear on.
[00:37:48] You're going out again.
[00:37:49] Come back from that operation.
[00:37:50] Hey, get your gear on.
[00:37:51] Come back from that operation.
[00:37:52] Hey, get your gear on.
[00:37:53] You're going out again.
[00:37:55] Those guys that didn't really get involved in the planning, it was harder for them because
[00:37:58] they didn't feel like they had any control.
[00:38:00] And they didn't see the risk mitigation that was happening.
[00:38:02] And they didn't understand the strategy well enough.
[00:38:04] Why?
[00:38:05] Because I didn't tell them, my fault.
[00:38:06] You know, I should have been more engaged than I should have explained to them the impact
[00:38:09] that they were having.
[00:38:10] I should have explained to them the overall strategic picture.
[00:38:13] And I tried to do that.
[00:38:14] And I thought I did it, but I didn't do well enough.
[00:38:17] And those are the guys that definitely were the most stressed out.
[00:38:22] So leaders out there, it's just another reason.
[00:38:25] It's another reason to tell people why they're doing what they're doing and get them involved
[00:38:31] in the planning and get them ownership of the planning.
[00:38:34] So they feel like they have some control over it.
[00:38:37] Interesting.
[00:38:38] Oh, they mentioned how they dealt with that when they'd pull them off the line, right?
[00:38:42] But they wouldn't just be like straight up straight.
[00:38:45] Don't, hey, you're messing up.
[00:38:46] Get off the line.
[00:38:47] No.
[00:38:48] It was like they pulled them off the line in a way that wouldn't, wouldn't mess them up.
[00:38:52] Do we need you to take care of the supply issue?
[00:38:54] Yeah.
[00:38:55] Go back there for me and get this figured out.
[00:38:56] Yeah.
[00:38:57] Okay, I'll do it.
[00:38:58] Give them a break, give them a rest.
[00:39:00] This is something hack worth talked about too.
[00:39:01] I mean, hack worth says, you know, about face, you know, he talks about he just says,
[00:39:05] hey, everyone's got a cup of certain size cup.
[00:39:08] Some people have a bigger cup than others, but when the cup gets filled up, that's it.
[00:39:12] They're done.
[00:39:13] And if you let the cup get filled up and overflow, then they're done forever.
[00:39:16] But if you can catch it beforehand, they can go back a little bit and drain their cup out.
[00:39:19] That's exactly what you talk about when you say manipulation.
[00:39:23] All right.
[00:39:24] You tell them just in a kind of a gingerly kind of way.
[00:39:28] You know, make them signed on to the whole situation.
[00:39:31] Yeah.
[00:39:32] Yeah, no doubt about it.
[00:39:38] This is going back to his discipline.
[00:39:42] My routine was to shave every morning and then to inspect the line.
[00:39:48] And in retrospect, shaving in the bitter cold was pretty ridiculous.
[00:39:52] But the practice had originated with one of my first meetings with Colonel Sink.
[00:39:57] At Tacoa, Sink had required us to shave every morning.
[00:40:01] He said, you shave every morning for the men.
[00:40:04] And if you want to, shave every evening for the women.
[00:40:07] But that's up to you.
[00:40:09] But I want you to said an example.
[00:40:13] He was absolutely right.
[00:40:15] I remember one morning when we prepared for our attack on foi.
[00:40:19] I got up in the middle of the night to shave before getting something to eat.
[00:40:23] In the process, I cut myself up pretty badly.
[00:40:26] I must have looked like hell.
[00:40:29] When Colonel Sink arrived to check on us before the attack commenced, he took one look
[00:40:33] at me and had a huge smile on his face.
[00:40:36] I later, I realized later that he was laughing at me for shaving on that bitterly cold
[00:40:41] morning.
[00:40:42] But that was one of the things I did to set an example for the men.
[00:40:46] Shave in the morning and once in a while, I would strip to the waist and give myself a French
[00:40:50] wash, a routine that caught everyone's attention.
[00:40:54] I did this for one reason and one reason only to get the men's attention and to let them
[00:41:00] know that I was going to be around for a while and this wasn't as bad as they thought
[00:41:04] it was going to be.
[00:41:06] Make the best of it.
[00:41:11] And what I like about that is his total awareness of the impact that he's having on his
[00:41:18] men.
[00:41:19] He knows that they are watching them and if you're in a leadership position, you've got to
[00:41:22] recognize that people are watching you.
[00:41:25] Parents.
[00:41:26] Yeah.
[00:41:27] If you're a parent, you've got to realize that person that you're leading called your child,
[00:41:31] they're watching you.
[00:41:32] It's more critical than most of the time anyway, than what you say.
[00:41:37] And people will make this excuse saying that they say, hey, do what I say, not what I
[00:41:42] do.
[00:41:43] Meanwhile, you're doing all this stuff.
[00:41:44] That's not how they're going to be like, oh, that's just something you say.
[00:41:48] Meanwhile, this is how you do it.
[00:41:50] Apparently, mom and dad are doing it this way.
[00:41:53] That's the way it's done.
[00:41:54] We're going to do this.
[00:41:55] Yeah.
[00:41:56] You've got to do the right thing and people are watching you when you're in a leadership
[00:42:03] position, you are being watched, you are being emulated.
[00:42:09] Your emotions are being mimicked.
[00:42:10] You don't know that.
[00:42:11] You might not sense that, but your emotions are being mimicked.
[00:42:16] You get into a panic mode.
[00:42:17] You're going to have a bunch of people panicking.
[00:42:22] You stay calm.
[00:42:24] Your people are going to stay calm.
[00:42:26] You get crazy.
[00:42:27] Your people are going to go crazy.
[00:42:28] Your people are watching you so set the good example.
[00:42:31] And one of the premier examples he's setting is he's maintaining the discipline.
[00:42:39] Now this is actually section.
[00:42:40] I don't, it's, it's very interesting because we had, I had made a comment on the podcast
[00:42:49] about, hey, what do you do?
[00:42:50] Someone asked, what do you do if you get told to do something and you don't believe
[00:42:54] in it.
[00:42:55] Right.
[00:42:56] And you know, I went through a big gray area and said, look, there's some gray area
[00:43:00] there.
[00:43:01] And if it's just something small that you can ask to do and you just, if you decide
[00:43:05] you're going to lay down the wall right now and bang your fist on the table and say, I'm
[00:43:08] not going to do that.
[00:43:09] Well, then you're going to get fired.
[00:43:12] And now someone else is going to have to come in there and do that thing that you've
[00:43:15] been asked to do.
[00:43:16] And I had one person on Twitter that kind of went back and forth with me.
[00:43:20] And, you know, he said, hey, it does make an impact when you walk away.
[00:43:26] And I agreed with him.
[00:43:27] I said, yes, I know.
[00:43:28] I'm not trying to say it doesn't make an impact when you walk away because it certainly
[00:43:31] does.
[00:43:32] But there's cases where it has more of an impact if you stay and you stay in the game.
[00:43:42] So this is an example right here, a pretty shocking example because we have a guy that's
[00:43:47] 100% on board and is, you know, a street shooting guy that listens to his chain of command.
[00:43:56] Here's what happens.
[00:43:59] Colonel Bob Sink was a magnificent commander.
[00:44:03] But this time he had had a little too much to drink and is ordered to dispatch another
[00:44:08] patrol to capture additional prisoners did not make sense.
[00:44:13] We had already captured sufficient prisoners for interrogation.
[00:44:16] A second patrol would only result in casualties for no apparent reason.
[00:44:23] Either exacerbating the situation was freshly fallen snow along the river that had
[00:44:28] quickly turned to ice during the day.
[00:44:31] If I followed Colonel Sink's order, the enemy would have heard us coming a long way off.
[00:44:38] What to do?
[00:44:41] I responded, yes, sir.
[00:44:45] And then promptly ignored the order.
[00:44:51] So he's doing what I was basically, what I was saying.
[00:44:56] If he just said no sir, we're not going to do that.
[00:44:58] Guess what?
[00:44:59] He's going to get fired and now we're going to get someone else put in charge.
[00:45:03] And even if he doesn't get fired, he's hurting his reputation.
[00:45:06] So it's a bad situation.
[00:45:09] But what he decides to do is go, God, it's sir.
[00:45:11] We'll take care of it.
[00:45:12] And then he promptly ignores the order to now back to the book.
[00:45:16] To give the impression of compliance, however, I assembled the men in a building and told
[00:45:21] them we were not going to send out this patrol because I did not think it was feasible.
[00:45:26] I also informed them that my neck was in a news, if anyone ever said anything about it.
[00:45:32] With that, the men laid down and caught some much needed sleep.
[00:45:35] And I took the radio and adjusted mortar and artillery fire on my supposed objective.
[00:45:42] And here's his thoughts on it.
[00:45:45] On reflection, I did exactly the right thing and I have never had any regrets.
[00:45:51] There was insufficient time for preparation.
[00:45:53] The field to our front was wide open and I would have lost too many men for no purpose.
[00:46:00] I wonder what I would have done had I been a career officer concerned about my own
[00:46:04] future?
[00:46:07] Would I have compromised my beliefs?
[00:46:10] The deliberate disobedience of a lawful order by my commanding officer presented an ethical
[00:46:15] dilemma of the first magnitude.
[00:46:23] But you can see it's a guy who's staying on his principles.
[00:46:27] And his principles were to accomplish the mission, take care of his men and he's weighing
[00:46:31] those things out.
[00:46:32] Those things aren't black and white.
[00:46:35] Those things are not black and white because you look at all the times he did do
[00:46:40] operations and missions and taskings where his guys got wounded and killed.
[00:46:44] But he saw what the purpose was.
[00:46:45] And now he sees something where there's no purpose and he says you know what?
[00:46:48] Not going to do it.
[00:46:49] But he doesn't tell the boss.
[00:46:50] He just does next to you.
[00:46:53] So there's stories of seals and Vietnam doing that.
[00:46:58] And I heard that from the Vietnam seals would tell me, hey, if they got directed to do something
[00:47:04] that they didn't think was a good mission.
[00:47:05] I've talked about this before.
[00:47:07] Oh, we're going to go. You want us to go three kilometers away and set up an ambush
[00:47:11] on this river that's in really tough enemy control areas.
[00:47:13] And we don't know what the intelligence is on who's going to come down that river.
[00:47:16] Okay, cool.
[00:47:18] And they'd patrol 200 meters out the gate.
[00:47:20] Set up a little perimeter, right close to camp where there's no no problems, smoke a couple
[00:47:26] cigarettes.
[00:47:27] It's spent a few hours out there.
[00:47:29] Walk back.
[00:47:30] Yeah, hey, nothing happened.
[00:47:31] No one came down the river.
[00:47:32] I would think you'd have to be pretty responsible though.
[00:47:35] If you're going to kind of exercise that course of action, otherwise you get someone who's
[00:47:40] just like, no, don't feel like it.
[00:47:41] Don't feel like it.
[00:47:42] Yeah, no.
[00:47:43] It's obviously something that a guy like Dick Winner did very rarely.
[00:47:46] And the seals and Vietnam, something they were blown missions off all the time.
[00:47:49] But they, you know, like I said, if something comes up where you completely disagree with
[00:47:56] it, but you don't disagree with it to the point where you want to make a, you want to make
[00:48:02] a stand that's going to make you get fired.
[00:48:04] Now you're not supporting your guys anymore.
[00:48:06] Yeah.
[00:48:07] Yeah.
[00:48:08] You know, okay, you kept them alive that night.
[00:48:09] Well, who's coming in to take your place?
[00:48:12] That's the question.
[00:48:13] Who's coming in to take your place?
[00:48:14] And you don't know who that is.
[00:48:15] And what's their best interest going to be?
[00:48:18] Because whoever comes in to take your place is going to be a company guy that's going to be
[00:48:21] he's going to be a guy that's going to obey every last direct order from the guy.
[00:48:27] And this is, you know, it's strange too.
[00:48:28] I mean, here I am.
[00:48:29] I mean, I was, as, as motivated it to be in the military as I could possibly be.
[00:48:37] You know, so I'm not sitting here calling from you, to from guys.
[00:48:42] But I am telling you to use common sense.
[00:48:44] And you've got to put common sense on top of everything.
[00:48:47] And sometimes common sense outweighs orders.
[00:48:49] That's just the way it is.
[00:48:50] It's rare.
[00:48:51] And I said this last time as well.
[00:48:52] It's rare.
[00:48:53] It's not like you're getting these crazy orders from up the chain of command.
[00:48:56] People aren't people aren't advancing in the military because they're idiots.
[00:49:01] Right.
[00:49:02] Yeah.
[00:49:03] And it's not like they're not on your team.
[00:49:04] And it's not like they want you to get killed.
[00:49:06] And you know, maybe, you know, in this case, he could have given some pushback and said,
[00:49:10] hey, you know what, boss here's what's going on.
[00:49:12] There's fresh snow.
[00:49:13] It's good they're going to hear us coming in a mile away.
[00:49:14] We don't have good cover to the front.
[00:49:16] This is not a good operation.
[00:49:19] But maybe he heard the tone of the Colonel's voice and just said, hey, if I say that, and
[00:49:25] then I don't do it, or if I say that, it's going to make me suspicious.
[00:49:28] So you know what, I got it, sir.
[00:49:30] And then don't do it.
[00:49:32] Just a judge, a judgment of character.
[00:49:36] But that's what you've got writing on you and your in a leadership position.
[00:49:39] You got those guys' lives.
[00:49:41] And that should be more important than anything.
[00:49:44] And it's a strange dichotomy of leadership because on the one hand, you're trained
[00:49:52] your whole military career that you got to take care of your men, take care of your people.
[00:49:59] That's something you get trained on since day one, take care of your team.
[00:50:04] And the dichotomy of that is you're going to do missions where you could very well
[00:50:08] be sending your men to their death.
[00:50:09] So there's a massive dichotomy there.
[00:50:12] And how do you deal with the dichotomy?
[00:50:14] You find the balance.
[00:50:16] And the balance is not a cookie cutter response.
[00:50:21] The balance is different for each scenario that you're in.
[00:50:25] And how well you can weigh those opposing forces is a measure of what kind of leader you
[00:50:33] are.
[00:50:36] That's what makes leadership hard.
[00:50:40] Now we're getting to move through Europe and now we're about to go from war to something
[00:50:57] even more evil, which is the concentration camps, the death camps.
[00:51:04] So back to the book.
[00:51:07] Because they enter, this is back to the book, as they enter the death camps for the first
[00:51:11] time.
[00:51:14] The horror of what we observe remains with each paratrooper to this day.
[00:51:20] You could not explain it.
[00:51:22] You could not describe it.
[00:51:24] And you could not exaggerate it.
[00:51:27] It did not take long to realize that the Nazis were intent on eliminating all the Jews,
[00:51:33] the Nazis, and anyone who disagreed with Hitler's regime.
[00:51:39] The memory of starved, dazed men who dropped their eyes and heads and looked at them through
[00:51:44] the chain-link fence in the same manner that a beaten mystery to dog would cringe.
[00:51:49] Left a mark on all of us forever.
[00:51:54] Nor could you underestimate the barbarity of the Nazi regime, even during the latter stages
[00:52:01] of the war.
[00:52:05] As I went through the war, it was natural to ask myself, why am I here?
[00:52:13] Why am I putting up with a freezing cold, the constant rain, and the loss of so many comrades?
[00:52:19] Does anybody care?
[00:52:22] A soldier faces death on a daily basis, and his life is one of misery and deprivation.
[00:52:30] He is cold, he suffers from hunger frequently bordering on starvation.
[00:52:36] The impact of seeing those people behind that fence left me saying, if only to myself,
[00:52:44] now I know why I am here.
[00:52:47] For the first time, I understand what this war is all about.
[00:52:55] And obviously seeing that evil firsthand.
[00:53:02] That's one of the reasons why I think we explore the darkness and the evil on a fairly regular
[00:53:10] basis here.
[00:53:12] That's why I explore it.
[00:53:14] That's why my mind is drawn to these things because you've got to understand that
[00:53:19] evil is out there, and it's still here today, and somebody has got to take the fight
[00:53:30] to the enemy.
[00:53:37] Now I'm jumping towards the end of the book, and again, it's not really not given anything
[00:53:44] away.
[00:53:45] It's not allowed World War II ended, but this is how winter, or sorry, major winter is
[00:53:54] kind of wraps up their combat back to the book.
[00:54:02] And so many of the co-avadrins returned home, yet all would be forever connected by their
[00:54:09] shared experiences in combat.
[00:54:13] The course of the war, easy company alone, lost 48 men killed, and over 100 wounded,
[00:54:20] incurring 150% casualties.
[00:54:25] This percentage was not uncommon among similar units who had fought in the campaign of Northwest
[00:54:30] Europe.
[00:54:33] At the peak of its effectiveness in Holland in October of 1944, and in the R-Dens in January
[00:54:39] 1945, it was as good a rifle company as there was in the world, according to Arthur Steven
[00:54:47] E. Ambrose.
[00:54:49] How so many men survived the campaigns in Normandy, Holland, Bastone, and Germany was a true
[00:54:56] testament to their courage, their training, and their discipline under fire.
[00:55:05] And now I want to fast forward a little bit more to...
[00:55:12] He's done.
[00:55:14] He's now out of the military, and I know we got a lot of people that listened to the
[00:55:18] show, because a lot of you guys reached out to me, and talk about that transition, a lot
[00:55:23] of people asked me about that transition, and here's Dick Winter's transition.
[00:55:32] While I was extremely happy to put the army behind me, I realized that I was a different
[00:55:38] man than I was when I joined the army over four years earlier.
[00:55:44] The war had changed me in many ways, as it does all who experience combat.
[00:55:51] Having witnessed so much mass suffering, and the unparalleled barbarism that mankind is
[00:55:57] capable of inflicting upon itself.
[00:56:01] I don't see how any survivor can be ever be cruel to anything again.
[00:56:09] In addition, I was a far better judge of character than I had been in 1941.
[00:56:16] That feeling remains with me today a full 60 years after the war.
[00:56:21] When I meet people for the first time and get to know them, I can't help but judge them
[00:56:25] and size them up.
[00:56:27] Do they have leadership?
[00:56:28] Would they be good in combat?
[00:56:31] Do they pass the test?
[00:56:36] I was also more disciplined than I remembered being before I deployed to Europe.
[00:56:43] This discipline helped me adapt to civilian life once I returned to Pennsylvania.
[00:56:49] Like all veterans, I had to adjust to society, the life that you were going to share
[00:56:54] with others in order to make a living.
[00:56:57] I certainly never confused the challenges in the workplace with what I experienced in combat.
[00:57:03] There would be no life and death struggles in the corporate world.
[00:57:07] Business hardly equates to war.
[00:57:10] Such comparisons demean the word.
[00:57:15] When I read that, I actually had to put myself into check.
[00:57:20] I wanted to make sure that I'm clear about something.
[00:57:24] And obviously we wrote a book that's about comparing business and war.
[00:57:33] But I want to make it clear that what we're comparing and what we say is similar.
[00:57:38] In fact, they're the same is that principles, the principles of leadership are the same.
[00:57:45] The struggles and the challenges and the consequences are not the same.
[00:57:49] They are not.
[00:57:53] So I want to make sure I make that clear.
[00:57:59] Now, what's get to some of his reflections on leadership?
[00:58:10] Back to the book.
[00:58:11] Was I a successful leader?
[00:58:14] They tell me I was and modesty prevents me from disagreeing with them.
[00:58:19] I am not so naive that I don't realize the wide appeal of dick winners today as based
[00:58:24] on leadership in combat.
[00:58:27] I may not have been the best commander, but I always strove to be.
[00:58:33] My men depended on me to carefully analyze every tactical situation to maximize the resources
[00:58:38] that I had at my disposal to think under pressure and delete them by personal example.
[00:58:45] I think it's interesting, even here, you know, he's looking back and he's a humble guy.
[00:58:50] You know, I may have not been the best combat commander, but I always tried to be.
[00:58:56] This is a humble man.
[00:58:58] I am not sure there is such a thing as a natural born leader.
[00:59:03] Some leaders are born with special aptitudes or talents.
[00:59:07] But any success I might have had was the product of good upbringing, intense study and
[00:59:13] preparation and physical conditioning that set me apart from my peers.
[00:59:19] Here's dick winners.
[00:59:20] I mean, one of the best kind of combat leaders at the tactical level in the modern era.
[00:59:27] And he's saying that it was preparation and physical conditioning, setting him apart from
[00:59:32] his peers.
[00:59:33] I was all back the book.
[00:59:35] I was also surrounded by a group of men who were disciplined and highly trained to accomplish
[00:59:39] any mission.
[00:59:41] I'd love to the equation and you can understand that the secret to my success was that
[00:59:45] somehow I always managed to survive another day.
[00:59:50] In recent years, I've been asked to address an increasing number of civic groups, corporate
[00:59:55] seminars, and governmental agencies on the subject of leadership.
[01:00:02] Most are looking for cookie cutter solutions as to what constitutes a successful leader.
[01:00:10] What is the recipe for success?
[01:00:12] And this is classic.
[01:00:14] And actually when the book came out, we did a bunch of interviews that got turned into either
[01:00:25] short articles or video clips.
[01:00:28] And they title these things.
[01:00:30] Like three things every leader must do.
[01:00:32] And that's what they always do.
[01:00:34] Everyone's looking exactly for what he says.
[01:00:36] They start looking for cookie cutter solutions to what constitutes a successful leader.
[01:00:42] What is the recipe for success?
[01:00:45] In truth, there are no simple solutions.
[01:00:49] Just as there is no average day in combat.
[01:00:53] Each situation is different.
[01:00:54] And each requires a leader to be flexible in adapting his or her particular leadership style
[01:01:00] to the specific circumstances required to accomplish any mission.
[01:01:05] It's a matter of adjusting to the individual and you do this every day.
[01:01:10] You don't have just one way of treating people.
[01:01:13] You adjust yourself to whom you are talking.
[01:01:20] If I would give advice to a young leader going to war based on my observation of what
[01:01:25] I had constituted the success of the outstanding leaders who comprised the American parachute
[01:01:30] infantry regiment of World War II, I would offer a series of principles that I am
[01:01:35] certain would result in great success regardless of the field endeavor, field of endeavor
[01:01:40] in which the individual was participating.
[01:01:42] So here he's saying the same thing that I said, which is leadership is the same, whether
[01:01:46] it's in the battlefield or whatever endeavor you're going into, leadership principles
[01:01:50] stay the same.
[01:01:53] First and foremost, a leader should strive to be an individual of flawless character,
[01:02:00] physical competence and moral courage.
[01:02:05] If you have character, that means you are the guy, that means the guy you are dealing
[01:02:09] with can trust you.
[01:02:13] The men trust you have faith in you and they obey you no questions asked.
[01:02:19] That's character in a nutshell.
[01:02:22] Character also allows you to make decisions quickly and correctly.
[01:02:26] One may question my decision to disobey a direct order from my commanding officer.
[01:02:31] This is the story we already talked about.
[01:02:34] And to fake another patrol as a violation of that very principle I'm advocating.
[01:02:41] In my heart, however, I could not send my men to risk their lives for no apparent reason
[01:02:46] when clearly nothing would have been gained that we had not already achieved.
[01:02:51] Such a course takes a degree of moral courage, which I have found is far rather than physical
[01:02:57] courage.
[01:02:58] Was I correct?
[01:03:00] In my estimation, I fought so and I have never regretted my decision.
[01:03:06] The same holds true for developing leaders of competency.
[01:03:10] Those entrusted to lead must study their profession to become totally proficient in tactics
[01:03:15] and technology.
[01:03:17] Prior to the invasion, I read every tactical manual I could lay my hands on to improve
[01:03:22] my tactical knowledge and professional competence while other soldiers were out curousing
[01:03:27] in the pubs.
[01:03:29] While they were enjoying the social life of the neighboring towns, I was reading and educating
[01:03:33] myself, getting ready to lead men into combat.
[01:03:41] Getting smarter.
[01:03:43] Open it up the books.
[01:03:44] That's what he was doing.
[01:03:46] And that's part of leadership.
[01:03:47] That's part of his characteristics of leadership is to become knowledgeable to read and
[01:03:55] study.
[01:03:59] He goes on.
[01:04:00] Don't waste time attempting to define leadership.
[01:04:03] No need to go to a dictionary.
[01:04:06] The infantry school at Fort Benning, Georgia has defined leadership in just two words via
[01:04:11] its motto, follow me.
[01:04:19] And he's going to do it again right here.
[01:04:24] Physical fitness is another prerequisite for success.
[01:04:28] I freely admit that I was blessed with a sound physical constitution but whenever possible
[01:04:32] I took the opportunity to improve my physical stamina.
[01:04:37] As I was in such good physical shape, I easily survived to coa.
[01:04:41] That's their initial training that they went through for airborne.
[01:04:44] While men washed out on a daily basis, the contingent from easy company that completed
[01:04:49] the training and earned their wings at Fort Benning were tough as nails.
[01:04:54] Because I was in such good shape, my fatigue level never reached the point of physical
[01:04:59] exhaustion that contributes to mental exhaustion and ultimately to combat fatigue.
[01:05:04] We all experience sleep deprivation at times.
[01:05:08] That is the nature of stress.
[01:05:10] But a physically exhausted leader routinely makes poor decisions in times of crisis.
[01:05:20] And here he talks about another piece.
[01:05:26] I have always felt that my principal contribution to the success of both easy company and
[01:05:31] second battalion was based on my knowledge of what to expect from each man.
[01:05:39] Know your people.
[01:05:43] Having selected the right men for the right job, I then delegated the authority to my
[01:05:48] subordinates and allowed them to use their initiative to execute the mission.
[01:05:55] Decentralized command.
[01:05:57] There is no need to tell someone how to do his job if you have properly trained your
[01:06:03] team.
[01:06:09] Good preparation is always vital to the success of any operation.
[01:06:13] But leaders must remain flexible once the action commences.
[01:06:19] Steve Ambrose likes to quote general Eisenhower who claimed before the battle is joined,
[01:06:24] plans or everything.
[01:06:26] Once the battle is joined, however plans go out the window.
[01:06:36] Next I would encourage leaders to take a moment of self reflection before rushing into
[01:06:41] important decisions.
[01:06:44] This is a little bit of detachment.
[01:06:47] Many leaders don't take the time to consider carefully their decisions or the implications
[01:06:51] of their actions.
[01:06:54] In battle, I periodically detached myself mentally from the noises and the chaos of battle.
[01:07:02] I found it useful to separate myself momentarily and to carefully think through what actions
[01:07:08] I needed to take to accomplish the mission.
[01:07:11] Again, I read this book for the first time last week.
[01:07:16] He's saying detachment straight up.
[01:07:18] He's saying the exact same in battle, I periodically detached myself mentally from the noises
[01:07:23] and chaos of battle.
[01:07:27] Hang tough.
[01:07:29] Never, ever give up regardless of the adversity.
[01:07:34] If you are a leader, a fellow who other fellows look to, you have got to keep going.
[01:07:42] I would also urge leaders to remain humble.
[01:07:49] If you don't worry about who gets the credit, you get a lot more done.
[01:07:55] Again, this is when people ask me what's the most important quality of a leader.
[01:07:58] I tell them that humility.
[01:08:01] Leaders should assume the blame when the operation fails.
[01:08:08] When it succeeds, credit the men and women in your team.
[01:08:12] They do the lion's share of the work.
[01:08:16] And now he's going to talk about humility a little bit more.
[01:08:19] Since the release of the HBO miniseries, many of us have been flooded with hundreds, sometimes
[01:08:25] thousands of letters from adoring fans across the nation.
[01:08:31] The attention is certainly flattering and greatly appreciated.
[01:08:37] But it remains better to remember Eisenhower's address at Guild Hall Hall on June 12,
[01:08:44] 1945, to an ecstatic British public, which showered the Supreme Commander with a tumultuous
[01:08:53] parade through the streets of London.
[01:08:56] I commanded them.
[01:09:01] Humility must always be the portion of any man who receives a claim earned in the blood of
[01:09:09] his followers and the sacrifices of his friends.
[01:09:17] I think anybody that's ever been in a leadership position and has been called some kind
[01:09:25] of hero will think back to that statement.
[01:09:29] Humility must always be the portion of any man who receives a claim earned in the blood
[01:09:35] of his followers and the sacrifices of his friends.
[01:09:44] And I think when you use that word hero, it's something that obviously gets thrown
[01:09:53] around a lot.
[01:09:59] And here's what Major Winners had to say about that, perhaps the best characterization
[01:10:07] of what a true hero consists is found in a letter, Sergeant Mike Rainy sent me in January
[01:10:16] 1982, surely before he went back to the hospital for a series of tests.
[01:10:22] Historians Stephen Ambrose used the passage to conclude band of brothers because Rainy
[01:10:26] encapsulated the cohesion that became the hallmark of easy company.
[01:10:33] In thinking back on the days of easy company, I'm treasuring my remark to a grandson who
[01:10:40] asked grandpa, were you a hero in the war?
[01:10:47] No, I answered, but I served in a company of heroes.
[01:10:54] And I can tell you that I also served with many, many heroes, the guys in tasking to bruiser
[01:11:02] the guys from 2 to 8 infantry, the guys from 1-1-AD and the ready first, the soldiers and
[01:11:07] the Marines, all those brave men.
[01:11:19] And some brave women as well.
[01:11:26] And to those men and women, those soldiers and Marines that I was lucky enough to serve
[01:11:32] with, I think that this statement right here from Dick Winners is something that I think
[01:11:42] is very fitting.
[01:11:46] As I look back on the men of easy company and the closeness we have enjoyed over the years,
[01:11:52] I reminded of the dialogue attributed to a senior German officer bidding farewell to his men
[01:11:58] in the HBO miniseries.
[01:12:02] Paraphrasing his words, I would say to easy company and the officers in men of the 506
[01:12:09] parachute infantry regiment.
[01:12:12] It has been a long war.
[01:12:16] It's been a hard war.
[01:12:21] You have fought bravely, proudly for your country.
[01:12:26] You are a special group of men connected by a bond that only exists in combat.
[01:12:33] You've shared the in-communicable experience of war and have been tested under extreme
[01:12:39] adversity.
[01:12:41] You've shared foxholes and have held each other in dire moments.
[01:12:47] You've seen death and have suffered together.
[01:12:51] You've lived in an environment totally incomprehensible to those who do not know war.
[01:13:00] I am proud and deeply honored to have served with every one of you.
[01:13:06] You all deserve long and happy lives in peace.
[01:13:12] I bid each of you God's speed and ask the Almighty to shower his blessings on you and your
[01:13:18] families now and for generations to come.
[01:13:24] And that wraps the book and, you know, I was thinking after the last podcast that this
[01:13:34] was going to be a lighter one.
[01:13:39] And I picked this book specifically because I see major dick winners as an incredible person,
[01:13:47] incredible leader, a role model for everyone.
[01:13:53] But because we are talking about war, there is still tragedy and loss and darkness there.
[01:14:04] And that's okay.
[01:14:12] And do you vet out there like the anonymous Marine that wrote that tribute to his brothers
[01:14:22] from April 2nd?
[01:14:26] And we know there's hundreds of thousands of veterans that are feeling that every day.
[01:14:31] If you're having one of those dark days, it's okay.
[01:14:42] It's okay.
[01:14:49] It's okay to feel that darkness.
[01:14:56] It's okay to remember it and miss it and hate it and love it.
[01:15:04] And it's okay to wish it never happened.
[01:15:08] And at the same time, to wish it never stopped.
[01:15:15] And it's okay to want to take it all back.
[01:15:21] And at the same time, to want to do it all again.
[01:15:31] And if you've got in your mind that you think that people don't understand, that's okay.
[01:15:43] They don't.
[01:15:46] But you do.
[01:15:50] You know darkness, you know evil.
[01:15:57] But more important than that.
[01:16:01] You know good.
[01:16:06] You know light.
[01:16:10] You know laughter and love better than anyone.
[01:16:20] So embrace.
[01:16:29] Embrace that darkness.
[01:16:31] Own it.
[01:16:32] Don't look away from it.
[01:16:34] Don't bury it in booze or in pills.
[01:16:39] Listen.
[01:16:42] Listen to what corporal Scott Procopio would have been saying to you, live your life.
[01:16:49] Embrace your life with physical activity and with nature and with you jutsu and with
[01:16:59] son and with laughter and guitar and good memories and creativity and discipline.
[01:17:10] Discipline yourself.
[01:17:15] So you can free yourself and move forward into the future.
[01:17:29] Whether there's no more darkness and no more war.
[01:17:34] But peace.
[01:17:40] Good evening, Echo.
[01:17:42] Good evening.
[01:17:47] Little message to the vets out there.
[01:17:49] I hear from a lot of veterans and I just want to let those guys know, you know, kind of
[01:17:56] where I'm coming from, get a lot of real positive stuff from guys and let some guys go
[01:18:03] with you hard times and I know it and you know, I'm hoping to be able to kind of spread
[01:18:13] my thoughts where I'm at and how what I think of these things.
[01:18:23] Because you know, if you get guys like major winners that you know did everything that
[01:18:32] he did in war, he came back and you know, he was able to figure it out and a lot of
[01:18:38] those veterans were and they, you know, he said, wasn't an easy adaptation that they
[01:18:42] made but they made it.
[01:18:46] They made it.
[01:18:49] So I think you got to embrace those things and be stronger than them.
[01:19:00] And I know and I said all the time, you got to know that darkness and you really want
[01:19:03] to appreciate the light and I think that guys that have been to war, they can do that
[01:19:11] and life can seem so much better.
[01:19:17] You know how bad it can be.
[01:19:23] So speaking of feedback from people, rough transition right now, but that's what we do here.
[01:19:38] What rough transition?
[01:19:41] Rough transitions.
[01:19:42] And you know what?
[01:19:43] You know what's interesting about the rough transitions?
[01:19:44] And any movement that's out there that's listening to me right now or anybody that's not
[01:19:47] a vet that anyone that's been through hard times and loss, it's a big rough transition
[01:19:53] and you go in and out emotionally.
[01:19:56] And you know, you'll be feeling like crap one minute and then the next minute you'll feel
[01:20:00] okay and you'll be laughing and that's, that's like I said, that's okay.
[01:20:04] I think a lot of people are scared that they might be acting the wrong way.
[01:20:12] But it's all right.
[01:20:15] It's okay.
[01:20:16] Yeah, and just like how you're saying where it may seem like people don't understand
[01:20:20] and that's okay because they don't, that's so true because in this way, I think of it
[01:20:26] because my best friends are actually they're still in, maybe seals.
[01:20:32] So these are guys that you grow up with.
[01:20:34] Grow up with and spend your best friends there in my wedding.
[01:20:39] So a lot of them do you don't want to talk to them and stuff?
[01:20:42] I just in my own head I kind of imagine what it's like coming back.
[01:20:47] So if you kind of consider it kind of in a nutshell where you consider, hey, what's your
[01:20:51] biggest problems when you're overseas, when you're in the war?
[01:20:54] What are these big problems you gotta worry about?
[01:20:56] Okay, and then let's factor that in okay, then we come home and then look okay, let's
[01:21:02] say in the where your biggest problem is getting shot and die.
[01:21:05] Are you getting both your legs blown off or whatever?
[01:21:12] Whatever your biggest problem is as far as worrying about.
[01:21:16] Okay, then you come home and on and on your girlfriend or your wife is like, hey, I thought
[01:21:20] I told you to do those dishes and she's flipping out on you.
[01:21:24] So in the back of your mind, you're kind of like okay, wait, the comparison, it was two days
[01:21:29] ago.
[01:21:30] I was in the desert worried about my legs being blown off.
[01:21:32] And now I'm here, we're apparently the biggest problem according to my girlfriend's
[01:21:37] life.
[01:21:38] The biggest problem on earth.
[01:21:39] Apparently because she's the only one she's really met, she's met.
[01:21:42] She won't really talk to me or the dishes, yeah.
[01:21:45] And it's just not computing, you know?
[01:21:47] And then you go next door and their biggest problem is kind on the same level.
[01:21:51] So yeah, they don't understand.
[01:21:53] And you in a way you're living in this crazy world where I can see how that could kind
[01:21:59] of get to you and be like, man, am I wrong?
[01:22:02] Yeah, so one of the things that I and you hear me talk about this before is perspective.
[01:22:07] And wanting to see, I always talk about it from a leadership perspective like I want to
[01:22:10] think about what my superior is thinking.
[01:22:13] Why is he telling me to do this?
[01:22:14] Let me get his perspective.
[01:22:16] And then what are my, what are my subordinates thinking?
[01:22:19] What is their perspective?
[01:22:21] And it's a very useful tool to use and what you're talking about right now.
[01:22:25] And I remember I had a situation like that where I would be like, I'm not going to
[01:22:29] always at work.
[01:22:30] And I forget what was going on, but something was going on.
[01:22:33] Like I think we were preparing to deploy guys earlier.
[01:22:36] There's something major was going on.
[01:22:38] There was major issues.
[01:22:40] I think it was Afghanistan.
[01:22:42] And we were getting ready to deploy guys early.
[01:22:44] It was a real big spin up and all this stuff.
[01:22:46] And literally I come home and I mean, I'm at work and we're trying to figure out I
[01:22:53] were put this plan together and guys are going to play and it's horrible and you know,
[01:22:58] whatever.
[01:22:59] I'm just stressed.
[01:23:00] I come home and I, hey, babe, you know how you doing?
[01:23:03] I said in my wife and she's sitting there and all of a sudden she like picks up the
[01:23:07] phone and someone calls her or she, someone calls her, she picks up the phone and she
[01:23:11] hangs up.
[01:23:12] She's like, I can't believe this.
[01:23:13] Yeah, and I'm like, I thought something, you know, I thought someone died or
[01:23:17] whatever.
[01:23:18] And I said, I said, oh, what's wrong?
[01:23:20] What's wrong?
[01:23:21] And she said, um, there was something along like the wiggles is the same night as
[01:23:26] Barney and I booked both tickets.
[01:23:28] So with some things she was taking the kids to that like the literally did not matter
[01:23:33] in any way shape or formed a me at all.
[01:23:35] But it's her, you know, she had spent $22 on these tickets for three kids at the time.
[01:23:40] At $66 and now she had booked double booked the children for multiple shows.
[01:23:46] It was harsh.
[01:23:47] But what I had to do is well, you know, I had to go in perspective in a whole and
[01:23:52] world.
[01:23:53] Man, that was $66, right?
[01:23:56] And it was the kids and it was, they both wanted to see all the shows or whatever the
[01:23:59] thing was.
[01:24:00] So in her perspective, in her part of the world, that's a really big deal.
[01:24:04] And so that's, I think something you're going to do as a, as a, as a, as a human, always
[01:24:09] look at one of the people's perspectives are.
[01:24:11] And you know what, if people are pissed off, if your wife's freaking out because you didn't
[01:24:14] do the dishes, I got some really easy solution to that.
[01:24:18] Do the dishes.
[01:24:20] Just do the dishes.
[01:24:21] Yeah.
[01:24:22] You were put on some music and scrub some pots and pans.
[01:24:26] Let's do this.
[01:24:27] You know what, I'll scrub some pots and pans.
[01:24:29] Be happy to.
[01:24:30] Let's do this happen.
[01:24:31] Yeah.
[01:24:32] That's good, man.
[01:24:33] And then, you know, that if you have the ability and kind of the wherewithal to do that, to, to,
[01:24:38] really it's detaching, you detaching and looking at their situation, not looking at it from
[01:24:42] your own personal situation.
[01:24:46] If you can manage to do that, and I think it helps when someone reminds you, like, just
[01:24:50] like, you say, right now.
[01:24:51] And maybe someone will be like, hey, you know what, let me, let me go ahead and remember
[01:24:54] that next time.
[01:24:55] You know, all this stuff.
[01:24:56] And I say this to leaders all the time when I go out and work with companies.
[01:25:00] It's so much of it is just about awareness.
[01:25:02] Yes.
[01:25:03] When you become aware of the problem, you become aware of the mistake or you become aware
[01:25:06] of the solution.
[01:25:07] And it's there in front of you.
[01:25:08] Then it becomes very easy.
[01:25:09] The problem is, you people aren't aware of how easy it can be to solve some of these things.
[01:25:14] If you just make this small adjustment to your mentality.
[01:25:17] Yeah.
[01:25:18] The way of is the fact that you're freaking steaming red lining for the fifth time, your
[01:25:24] wife told you to do something when like I said, you're worrying about your guys getting
[01:25:29] killed yesterday.
[01:25:30] Yes, today is a go.
[01:25:32] Yeah.
[01:25:33] As one of my buddies, you used to say, when we are coming home from our first deployment,
[01:25:37] he says, can you believe this tomorrow?
[01:25:41] We're going to get on an aluminum tube and we're going to wake up back in Sydney.
[01:25:45] I was like, okay, man, take it easy.
[01:25:49] I'll stay.
[01:25:50] You need to be broke.
[01:25:52] All right.
[01:25:53] Anything else here?
[01:25:54] Yes.
[01:25:55] We are in fact sponsored by on it.
[01:25:59] Go to on it.com slash jockel.
[01:26:02] Get some good stuff.
[01:26:03] Yeah.
[01:26:04] Get some very good stuff.
[01:26:06] I prefer off a brain and shrimp tech.
[01:26:10] What was that?
[01:26:11] Was that that bar?
[01:26:12] Oh yeah.
[01:26:13] Yeah.
[01:26:14] The warrior bars check out the, this is the anti donor.
[01:26:17] It's really like about it.
[01:26:19] So the warrior bar, it's like, it's like, it's like beef jerky with some spice in it
[01:26:24] and some cranberries and it's tasty.
[01:26:26] Yeah, it's like the tender, it'll beef jerky.
[01:26:29] Yes, it's beef jerky.
[01:26:30] But there's that tender.
[01:26:31] Yeah.
[01:26:32] What they do by.
[01:26:33] It's like that.
[01:26:34] It's, it tastes really good and like moist.
[01:26:37] It's good.
[01:26:38] It's a dried.
[01:26:39] Right.
[01:26:40] So yeah.
[01:26:41] Get some of those.
[01:26:42] Your bars and their, their tasty.
[01:26:45] Yeah, an official short and long term benefits.
[01:26:48] I like that.
[01:26:49] That's important.
[01:26:50] I think.
[01:26:51] Yes.
[01:26:52] Dan, warrior bar.
[01:26:53] Yeah, that, it's kind of a genius solution because you know how people
[01:26:55] be like, hey, I'll take my protein shake.
[01:26:57] A warrior bar is like made with actual food.
[01:27:00] Yes.
[01:27:01] That's legit.
[01:27:02] So yeah, you can get all that.
[01:27:03] And you can just get after them all day long.
[01:27:07] Because, because they're, you know, you just, you're hungry.
[01:27:10] But you think, oh, the one I'm going to have right now.
[01:27:12] Mm-hmm.
[01:27:13] You know, a donut is what you're thinking.
[01:27:15] Sure.
[01:27:16] Potentially.
[01:27:17] Yeah.
[01:27:18] On it.com slash jacco, get it 10% off.
[01:27:21] Boom.
[01:27:22] And then of course, if you, while you're online, if you want to check out the
[01:27:25] jacco story, you can buy shirts.
[01:27:28] If you like them.
[01:27:29] And bumper stickers.
[01:27:30] Yeah, we made some bumper stickers.
[01:27:32] Yeah.
[01:27:33] We did.
[01:27:34] While jacco was not looking.
[01:27:36] It looked good.
[01:27:37] You under desk or your bumper, whatever.
[01:27:41] And if some people indicated that they wanted to donate, you can donate on jaccostore.com
[01:27:46] as well.
[01:27:47] The PayPal thing or on jaccopodcast.com as well.
[01:27:52] And click through Amazon.
[01:27:53] We'll get some people posting what they're buying through Amazon.
[01:27:55] Oh, yeah.
[01:27:56] Which is awesome.
[01:27:57] So yeah, if you're shopping on Amazon and you want to support the podcast, just click
[01:28:02] on our link on Amazon.
[01:28:04] And then do your shopping like you normally would.
[01:28:06] Here's the thing.
[01:28:07] I don't know if I told you.
[01:28:08] Just what I added because my friends on Twitter is troopers.
[01:28:13] They a lot of people were indicating that they like the books that you cover.
[01:28:18] And they're like, hey, let me, you know, get those books.
[01:28:21] You know what?
[01:28:22] You should do.
[01:28:23] You should have the list, the library of books that you've covered and link them.
[01:28:27] So guess what?
[01:28:28] I did.
[01:28:29] Echo Scott.
[01:28:30] Echo makes things happen.
[01:28:31] That's what I like.
[01:28:32] Now on jaccopodcast.com on the top.
[01:28:33] I added it on the menu where it says books.
[01:28:36] It just says books.
[01:28:37] I don't know.
[01:28:38] Okay.
[01:28:39] And you click on there to have all the podcasts episodes, you know, the book, what
[01:28:43] podcast episode is on.
[01:28:44] You click on it, boom, you can get it.
[01:28:46] That's awesome.
[01:28:47] Yeah.
[01:28:48] Easy.
[01:28:49] All right.
[01:28:50] Let's get some questions.
[01:28:51] Okay.
[01:28:52] Question number one.
[01:28:56] Is taking extreme ownership the same as apologizing for failures or apologizing for
[01:29:01] others mistakes?
[01:29:02] I'm having difficulty separating these two concepts when I try to take ownership over
[01:29:07] failures.
[01:29:08] Does taking ownership of failure generally include in I'm sorry, X occurred?
[01:29:13] It's such or it's such.
[01:29:15] Well, it isn't just apologizing, right?
[01:29:20] It isn't just saying, oh, I apologize this happened.
[01:29:23] It's part of it.
[01:29:24] Part of ownership is apologizing.
[01:29:25] If you make a mistake, you've got to own it and generally you've got to say, hey, look,
[01:29:28] I'm sorry this happened.
[01:29:30] You've got to own that there's been a problem or a mistake or an issue.
[01:29:34] And that does include other people's mistakes, but you have to literally take ownership
[01:29:40] of them.
[01:29:43] You can't say, hey, I'm sorry these other people made mistakes.
[01:29:47] That's not what I'm talking about.
[01:29:49] And it's look, the mistakes that were made were actually my fault.
[01:29:54] And another important thing here is you can't just say, hey, guys, it's all my fault.
[01:30:01] You actually need to believe it yourself.
[01:30:05] You need to believe that you failed in the situation to do the right thing or make something
[01:30:11] happen or make the right decision or make the right call and do the right preparation
[01:30:14] or whatever it is that you're supposed to do, you need to do that.
[01:30:18] You need to believe that.
[01:30:20] You can't just say it.
[01:30:21] And you say these mistakes were my fault.
[01:30:25] Here's why it was my fault.
[01:30:27] And yeah, I'm sorry that these things happen.
[01:30:29] I apologize with this happening.
[01:30:31] And some people see sorry as a sign of weakness.
[01:30:37] And honestly, there's some legal situations you might be in or some negotiations that you
[01:30:42] might be in where that might be true.
[01:30:45] But most of the time, I was just going to work in environment, inside of a team.
[01:30:52] Sorry is okay.
[01:30:53] And in fact, an apology is often the first step in moving forward.
[01:30:59] And it's generally going to be a little bit of a blow to your ego.
[01:31:06] Now, and that's especially true because your mystery and ownership now or Mrs. extreme
[01:31:12] ownership.
[01:31:13] Guess what?
[01:31:14] That doesn't mean everyone else is not yet.
[01:31:15] They'll get there.
[01:31:16] But they're not there yet.
[01:31:18] So you apologize to someone.
[01:31:20] It's going to be a big blow to your ego, especially when someone says, you're damn right
[01:31:24] that was your fault.
[01:31:27] That's going to hurt your ego.
[01:31:28] I don't want to lash back out, but you can't.
[01:31:30] You've got to put your ego in check.
[01:31:33] And you got to go, hey, I understand.
[01:31:35] That is my fault.
[01:31:36] Why I'm saying it's my fault?
[01:31:37] Because I truly believe it was my fault.
[01:31:38] Because it is.
[01:31:40] Because it is your fault.
[01:31:42] So you have to be careful when someone glows don't let that get your head.
[01:31:46] That's what you have to do.
[01:31:48] And it's not just for you that you're doing this.
[01:31:51] It's because the team has to figure out what the problem is.
[01:31:55] Someone's going to take ownership of the problem, that's you.
[01:31:58] And then I'll tell you you get the problem solved.
[01:32:00] And I'll tell you something else.
[01:32:03] And you might have predicted this.
[01:32:05] But my sorry and my apology comes with something else.
[01:32:12] 99% of the time.
[01:32:14] And that's a good.
[01:32:19] So look, hey, I'm sorry that this happened.
[01:32:22] This is my fault.
[01:32:23] But I'm glad it happened now.
[01:32:24] Oh, yeah.
[01:32:25] Hey, you know what?
[01:32:27] I'm glad we made this mistake.
[01:32:29] We made this mistake right now.
[01:32:30] It's going to set us back a little bit good because when we're not going to make it with
[01:32:33] a client.
[01:32:35] Oh, this happened.
[01:32:39] This part of the project fell apart.
[01:32:40] Good.
[01:32:41] Now we can fix it.
[01:32:42] We know about it.
[01:32:43] Oh, this went sideways.
[01:32:45] I missed it.
[01:32:46] Good.
[01:32:47] I won't let it happen again.
[01:32:49] So throw yourself a little good on the end of your sorry.
[01:32:54] Yeah.
[01:32:55] All right.
[01:32:56] Yeah, a lot of times those problems or mistakes or whatever they add to that experience,
[01:33:01] like the experience of being there.
[01:33:04] You know, where let's say you go through a path and you make a wrong turn.
[01:33:08] Now you have that experience that that's a wrong turn.
[01:33:10] That's what that looks like.
[01:33:11] That's what that feels like.
[01:33:12] And guess what?
[01:33:14] We're going to avoid that in the future.
[01:33:15] Rather than a bunch of situations where we're, for example, one in the future where it's
[01:33:19] more detrimental.
[01:33:20] Now you don't run into that.
[01:33:23] Yeah.
[01:33:24] You learned.
[01:33:25] You learned.
[01:33:26] I probably think of it.
[01:33:27] So a video that said that.
[01:33:28] Be good.
[01:33:29] You learned.
[01:33:30] All right.
[01:33:32] Next question.
[01:33:35] Is there a way to be a straight shooter?
[01:33:37] Oh, sorry.
[01:33:38] Is there a way to be straight shooter jocco and not be a jerk or piss people off?
[01:33:47] You know, this is a touch you.
[01:33:52] Is everybody has so much respect for the straight shooter, right?
[01:33:58] Hey, that guy's a straight shooter and you want to be a straight shooter.
[01:34:01] You don't want to be someone that you don't want to be the opposite.
[01:34:04] What's the opposite of a straight shooter?
[01:34:05] That's like a liar.
[01:34:06] Right.
[01:34:07] The seever.
[01:34:08] A deceiver, right?
[01:34:09] So of course, we want to be the straight shooter.
[01:34:11] Let me tell you, it is very difficult to be a straight shooter with everybody.
[01:34:15] Even when you have a tremendous relationship with somebody, a tremendous relationship with
[01:34:21] somebody.
[01:34:22] Can you really be a straight shooter with them?
[01:34:25] A true straight shooter.
[01:34:27] I've been a true straight shooter with probably three or four people in my life.
[01:34:37] In my life, I've been a straight shooter with maybe three or four people.
[01:34:41] That's off the top of my head.
[01:34:43] But I'm just saying it's not a big number.
[01:34:46] It's got to be something that you are so in sync with.
[01:34:52] I'm thinking about that.
[01:34:53] I don't think that's impossible for me in my situation.
[01:34:58] It's hard to be a straight shooter.
[01:34:59] How can you reconcile being a straight shooter now?
[01:35:02] Consider what that means.
[01:35:03] But to be a straight shooter with somebody at all times.
[01:35:07] Can't really do that.
[01:35:09] What do we do instead?
[01:35:10] You've got to use the indirect approach, the indirect approach.
[01:35:14] I'm talking about this all the time.
[01:35:15] This is a nuance that people come out on podcasts 12.
[01:35:20] They say, hey, I heard you say this.
[01:35:22] I'm going to go, remember that question we got to ask, do you ever get told you're
[01:35:27] to direct to intense?
[01:35:28] It's like no, I don't get told that.
[01:35:31] Because I don't believe in being trying to be a straight shooter with everybody.
[01:35:33] What I believe in is trying to get my message across to people so that it gets absorbed
[01:35:37] by them.
[01:35:39] The minute you straight shoot somebody, their defenses go up and it becomes problematic.
[01:35:43] There's some indirect approaches when you have these discussions with people when you
[01:35:49] use conversation to get your point across.
[01:35:51] Hey, I was looking at this and I was wondering what I could do better.
[01:35:55] Can you help me?
[01:35:57] Or what can we do better?
[01:35:59] You throwing the Wii on it.
[01:36:02] Or you don't want to say something like that.
[01:36:03] You got so much going on right now.
[01:36:06] Do you want me to take anything off you?
[01:36:07] You want me to take that thing off you're played that's kind of like a small little
[01:36:10] detail.
[01:36:11] Do you want me to handle that?
[01:36:13] Or you know, hey, it seems like you're having a micromanage this guy over here.
[01:36:17] You want me to go straight in that out and run that?
[01:36:21] Or it seems like this guy is taking up too much of your time.
[01:36:24] You want me to take that over or take that person over or you know it's a good one.
[01:36:30] Is hey, can you help me with my team members?
[01:36:35] I just want to sit down with you and just like have you talked to me about what you
[01:36:40] see in my team members.
[01:36:42] And then when you're you're discussing your team members and other people even your peers
[01:36:49] and what they do good in that.
[01:36:50] But what you're really doing is you're just tossing some things their way, some little
[01:36:55] things their way so that they understand and they it and it's kind of like teaching
[01:37:00] to get to right when you teach when you teach a move or teaching anything when you teach
[01:37:03] a move you learn it better right?
[01:37:06] If you make somebody teach a move they're going to learn it better.
[01:37:10] So when you make someone sit down with you and go through the issues that people are having
[01:37:16] it actually makes them self-reflect but they don't know it.
[01:37:21] But they reap the results of it.
[01:37:23] So that's a that's a crafty one that I've used a bunch.
[01:37:28] Let's see here's a good one.
[01:37:30] I think I'm letting you down.
[01:37:32] I don't think I'm doing a good enough job.
[01:37:33] You know it's like I think I'm just be careful with that one.
[01:37:37] It seems like if you if you hit the wrong tone, you're going to be careful with all these.
[01:37:41] You gotta be careful with all these.
[01:37:42] You gotta be tactful.
[01:37:44] You can ask some more direct questions but when you ask the more direct questions you
[01:37:49] gotta be sort of you gotta be true you gotta be you gotta come across as being very truthful
[01:37:56] in your in your inquisition.
[01:37:58] So for instance hey what was the strategy that you were thinking about over here?
[01:38:01] Like before this old thing of fellow part you know what to have but you know what you think
[01:38:05] or or hey what was what were you thinking about when you put this together because I
[01:38:09] I don't quite I don't quite get it.
[01:38:12] You gotta be careful that's another one.
[01:38:13] Yeah.
[01:38:14] You gotta be careful.
[01:38:15] You gotta be careful.
[01:38:16] That's okay.
[01:38:17] What were you thinking right?
[01:38:19] Right.
[01:38:20] Right.
[01:38:21] You gotta be soft with you.
[01:38:22] So it's much better to be indirect and most of these cases.
[01:38:28] And hopefully you can build relationships with people where you can be more direct or you
[01:38:31] can get that conversation to be where it needs to be to where you can get the key
[01:38:35] critical information across but it's very very challenging.
[01:38:38] Yeah.
[01:38:39] And again, it ain't it's not that challenging it's not impossible I did it with everybody
[01:38:42] all the time.
[01:38:43] I always had got my point across to people.
[01:38:47] Always you know and I'll tell you this is something when I would straight shoot somebody
[01:38:54] I would and this is if I really needed to straight shoot somebody I would write them
[01:39:01] a very lengthy email to say hey here's what's going on here's what I'm saying and I would
[01:39:11] really craft it with a lot of patience and and then I would either do once I wrote the
[01:39:17] email I would either use that and wouldn't send it but I'd use it as a guide to myself
[01:39:22] like okay this is the conversation I'm gonna have or I'd send it to them for real.
[01:39:26] Like a deal.
[01:39:27] Yeah like a deal note you know I actually read one of those.
[01:39:30] I read one of those on on on on on on on or two or five I think it was number five that
[01:39:36] is one of those things that I did I said okay you know what I got to help this guy out
[01:39:39] got to be direct with them he's making some mistakes I want him do better here's a
[01:39:43] little deal note for you get you square away the thing is these this is definitely hard
[01:39:50] but it's not impossible you got to just have the open mind you got to use your
[01:39:55] attack you got to use your judgment and you got to build relationships and have conversations with people
[01:40:00] and and know what your intention is in the conversation and just keep slowly moving in that
[01:40:06] direction.
[01:40:07] You know what I a tip and I'm gonna say this tip because I like when people do it to me
[01:40:13] when they're like correcting me or whatever is sprinkling little comments about the stuff
[01:40:20] that that they did right.
[01:40:22] Yeah that's a common practice.
[01:40:24] Yeah but when you do that though you add in this you add in and that's what I like about
[01:40:29] you you do this you know so it's you know so if you add in that's what I like about you
[01:40:33] it kind of individualizes that person like I'm the guy who does that you know that good
[01:40:38] part so it gives them that confidence so it's kind of like yeah tell me more kind of
[01:40:41] attitude and then at the end doing like something along the lines of like yeah good
[01:40:47] thanks you know thanks for the time or whatever and then be like I got your back yeah kind
[01:40:50] of lead.
[01:40:51] Well I mean we could go over techniques all night long those are both good ones you know
[01:40:56] another one is like hey listen I think you can be a top performer here I think you're
[01:41:01] gonna this is if you're talking to someone that's you know like a subordinate I think
[01:41:04] you can be a top performer here there's here's what you're kicking ass out yes this
[01:41:08] this and this here's this these two things right here if we can get these fixed you're
[01:41:13] going platinum when we get these things when we get you know you're gonna pause it look
[01:41:18] you I'm I'm imagining in the sense of you telling me this and like you get
[01:41:22] to yourself you know yeah so like they just say like when I'd be like hey and I'd
[01:41:28] ask him to say I'm in this position and he'd be like like yeah then later on you
[01:41:32] know I text him what are the hey thanks for going over this with me just like
[01:41:36] Cabrol you don't keep it up and you can be like a world champion you just say that
[01:41:39] and I don't know who else he says that to everybody I don't know he's never said
[01:41:42] that to me that's because we hate each other but for that moment I'm like
[01:41:48] hell yeah you know like I hope he corrects me more I hope he tells me how to do
[01:41:53] this because he obviously just like I was saying you know you could be a top
[01:41:56] performer here yeah tell me what else what can I do what can I do and actually the
[01:42:00] point that you're making is very good point which is you know picture going to
[01:42:07] perspective of the other person and what is it gonna sound like to them and that's
[01:42:10] a smart thing to do so you're you're hearing what you would hear if you were
[01:42:15] them yeah yeah indirect people be indirect it's harder it's challenging it takes
[01:42:24] more time it takes more patience and it is way more effective in fact
[01:42:30] and we talked about how before like some people they'll be like hey I'm just
[01:42:34] I'm just I tell it how it is you know I tell how it is and if you don't like
[01:42:38] you kind of think and all right go ahead and do that but see how that works out for
[01:42:42] you know see how many people follow you see many people want to listen to you
[01:42:45] many people want to be around you even you know I like the indirect approach to
[01:42:50] next question joko what is the number one philosophical lesson that you've
[01:42:56] learned from jiu jitsu yeah so jiu jitsu emphasizes so much of what I believe
[01:43:10] that it's tough to narrow down but I will but I will throw some things out
[01:43:18] there that kind of our part of jiu jitsu and our part of what I believe
[01:43:23] first of all we just talked about being indirect an indirect attacks flanking
[01:43:30] that's what you have to do in jiu jitsu you have to set things up you have to
[01:43:34] detach you have to detach from the chaos and from the emotional you cannot get
[01:43:38] emotional on the mat attack the flanks you gotta hit people where they're
[01:43:42] expecting it you gotta have a plan but you gotta be ready to adapt you gotta
[01:43:47] constantly improve your position you gotta have fun while you're doing it you
[01:43:53] gotta practice being in bad situations you gotta make your training is
[01:43:57] realistic as possible right these are all things I talk about these in all
[01:44:01] aspects of combat and in business and in life you gotta be physically fit
[01:44:08] to your mind stay sharp that's true true in jiu jitsu it's true in combat it's
[01:44:14] true in life you gotta know when to tap right you gotta know when to tap you
[01:44:20] gotta know when to give up on a single battle so that you don't lose the whole
[01:44:24] war gotta train for worst case scenarios you gotta start with that person on
[01:44:30] your back gotta start with the person with you in an arm lock and training for
[01:44:38] combat you gotta train for those worst case scenarios where you're outnumbered
[01:44:41] you got a bunker position and there's shooting paintball at you and you got
[01:44:43] down men that's what you gotta do you gotta train for the worst case scenarios
[01:44:47] and same thing with business I work with like sales group sometimes and they'll
[01:44:52] do role play and I'll say you know be the worst customer you can possibly be
[01:44:58] exactly when this person meets a normal human they they know how to knock it out
[01:45:03] of the park here's another one from jiu jitsu basically don't judge a book by
[01:45:09] it's cover right because you don't know if the person that you're about the
[01:45:13] slap is Jeff Glover or his Dean Lister or Jill Tudor or Joel Tudor you don't
[01:45:19] know what's gonna happen so you don't judge a book by it's cover yeah I mean Dean
[01:45:23] you'd be less apt to slap than you would Jeff Glover I guess that's a good
[01:45:27] point Dean you can kind of judge by the cover yeah the cover is pretty evident but
[01:45:31] Jeffy or Joel yeah you know those guys weigh 150 pounds and you know a surfer
[01:45:38] guy and a whatever Jeff is I don't know what genre of human you put Jeff into
[01:45:43] but you wouldn't think that he would throw a dars choke on your face so that's
[01:45:53] that prioritize an execute in the jiu jitsu I mean we just talked about it
[01:45:58] 14 times tonight for combat talk about in business all the time you got to
[01:46:02] make sure that the initiatives that you're running you don't have 38
[01:46:05] initiatives and you jitsu guess what you hear this all the time you're
[01:46:08] getting about to get choked you got to protect your neck number one you got to
[01:46:12] protect your neck yeah then you can worry about your leg and then you can
[01:46:15] worry about your arm and the hooks and everything else which got to protect the
[01:46:17] neck you got to prioritize yeah gotta keep things simple you got to create
[01:46:25] you got to have an open mind you got to be creative and look for different ways
[01:46:31] to win and different things to do you got to make sure you don't get trapped in
[01:46:35] your ruts mentally trapped in a rut this happens to me everybody yeah
[01:46:42] happens to me but I only know what I can tell you about me and then as I get
[01:46:45] trapped in ruts with your jitsu where I get I get stuck in something and I'll
[01:46:51] just go with one move for a long period of time you got to be careful that I
[01:46:56] need to be better about that discipline equals freedom so with you jitsu the
[01:47:05] more disciplined you are in training the more freedom you have on the mat so
[01:47:11] the more you train the more you work the more you drill the more you can move
[01:47:16] the more you can escape the more you can create the more you can finish you
[01:47:21] and not to mention the fear that it eliminates because like you know I'll
[01:47:26] like let's say you're not that discipline you take two weeks off a lot of
[01:47:28] time when you come back from that two weeks like you have that added element of
[01:47:32] nervousness like dang am I gonna gas or am I gonna get you know tapped out in front
[01:47:37] of everybody when you know when you know maybe there's a higher expectation on
[01:47:41] me or something like that yeah no I don't have that yeah part of it though
[01:47:53] for sure but I would say the number one philosophical lesson I guess is
[01:47:58] the philosophical lesson is the same thing that I learned from combat and that's
[01:48:04] humility in jitsu is absolutely one of the most humbling experiences in the
[01:48:10] world and we've actually I got people now that have started jiu jitsu
[01:48:13] because the podcast and they say oh I just did my first jiu jitsu class damn
[01:48:19] that was humbling it is extremely humbling you're gonna get be you're never
[01:48:25] gonna know everything you're always gonna be learning that there's other ways
[01:48:30] to do things and somebody that just started can come up with amazing techniques
[01:48:36] and that's humbling and there's other martial arts that have better moves
[01:48:43] that you need to pay attention to like wrestling has better take downs like
[01:48:47] sombo with the leg locks and catch wrestling some of those things that are
[01:48:52] better moves and you need to apply those and guess what you still need to know
[01:48:56] how to strike because it can be hard to take people down so you know how to
[01:49:01] how to strike and you can't be cocky and you can't be over confident because
[01:49:06] the bottom line is in jiu jitsu you will get beat and you will get beat by
[01:49:14] smaller guys by weaker guys by older guys you're gonna get beat and there's
[01:49:22] somebody that's better than you and if you don't like that or if your ego
[01:49:30] doesn't like that then you gotta find a new game to play yeah because you need
[01:49:38] to find a softer game or an easier game because jiu jitsu is honest yeah and
[01:49:46] you cannot escape that and that's as it should be and it's of course this
[01:49:51] philosophical this philosophy is something that I definitely carried over to
[01:49:57] combat and carry over to when I talk to businesses and carry over to life you
[01:50:03] can't be over confident you can't be over confident you're never gonna think
[01:50:06] you know everything you have to respect the enemy that's part of humility you
[01:50:12] got to respect your if you're not humble you don't respect your enemy you don't
[01:50:14] respect your opponent you don't respect your competitor and if you don't that's
[01:50:23] when you're gonna get caught so to me humility is the most important thing
[01:50:28] that jiu jitsu teaches you yeah and you know it's kind of a can be kind of
[01:50:35] but not a trick yeah I'll have a call to the tricks because okay you got
[01:50:42] it you got to maintain the humility right but that humility will be tested if
[01:50:46] you stick with it so I don't tell you a little quick story about that test being
[01:50:50] stood upon me it was like a little after I got my purple belt I was really
[01:50:58] like really hit my stride I was competing a lot in winning and you were
[01:51:03] trained with me a lot back yes that was that was right at that time when I was
[01:51:07] training with you and you were you know when I you know if there was a
[01:51:12] little mentorship going on yeah that was the exact time yeah and and I was like
[01:51:19] yeah I started to kind of you know give me into my own height you know like oh
[01:51:22] I'm the man not outwardly but on the inside and just fun jiu jitsu man gets
[01:51:30] cocky on the inside yeah and here's thing a lot of people that's how you know
[01:51:35] it in fact a little bit of that is good because you get a confidence that
[01:51:38] hunger to even learn more and be better so I had that and then Greg and
[01:51:42] rolled with Greg since I did know him as good but I knew him but not as good as I
[01:51:47] do now and last time I wanted to say the last time I rolled with him I was a
[01:51:50] white belt long time ago and he just would destroy me so I was like Greg's like oh
[01:51:56] yeah you know congratulations you know you've been winning and stuff like that
[01:51:58] was like oh yeah he's like all right yeah let's roll so I'm like I let me
[01:52:02] chill yeah I'm thinking in my mind yeah I've been winning here let me go
[01:52:07] ahead and show you my new stuff you know it's gonna show Greg in my own
[01:52:10] mind yeah and Greg took me like I was a white belt again immediately the kind
[01:52:16] where he literally nothing I did work and everything he did work there's like
[01:52:19] it's like he did a step one step two step three tap me out step one
[01:52:23] step two set tap me out and that was the time where I got put from like the
[01:52:30] top of the mountain in my own head right to the bottom of the mountain literally
[01:52:34] to the bottom not to not almost at the bottom to the bottom of the mountain yeah
[01:52:37] that's that's it's actually it's actually so good when that happens and
[01:52:42] and actually it's something I occasionally do you get to super humbling occasionally
[01:52:47] you get someone that is really really good and they don't recognize they don't
[01:52:55] come up against people all the time that are they don't come up against
[01:52:59] people very often that are better than them yeah most people in the beginning
[01:53:05] you have you have several years of of being beat down but occasionally
[01:53:10] you get something that's a great wrestler or maybe they were a judo player or
[01:53:13] something so they come into the game or they're just super strong or they're
[01:53:16] just a freak athlete and so they very quickly you know in a matter of six
[01:53:20] months to a year all of a sudden they're doing really well yeah sometimes those
[01:53:24] people sometimes those people mentally they might be good at your jitzie but
[01:53:28] they don't they don't mentally get it and they become really bullies and that's
[01:53:33] that's that's one of the it doesn't happen that often like I said but it
[01:53:37] doesn't occasionally happen where you get somebody that just is a dominant
[01:53:40] force they don't get humble enough and and they don't because even if you
[01:53:45] don't actually get humbled jiu jitsu normally in the beginning you learn
[01:53:48] like oh because one of the things I say to people is I'm not you know because
[01:53:53] I can tap you but doesn't mean that I'm a better human than you just means I
[01:53:57] train more jiu jitsu than you this you know what I mean that's all it means and
[01:54:01] that means that someone else has trained in jiu jiu more than me and they
[01:54:05] can beat me and that's just what it is but sometimes people think that because
[01:54:09] they can tap somebody out that they're better than them yeah as a human yeah
[01:54:15] there is a spirit and that's not a good attitude to have that's not what you
[01:54:19] jiu jitsu should be about yeah and those guys a lot of times because they
[01:54:22] and this is just kind of a one way to put it they don't pay their dues so to speak
[01:54:27] you know like a normal way they don't get the humility lesson over and over and
[01:54:30] over again they get it like a few times within the overcomment quickly yeah and
[01:54:33] it out ways that way yeah so you gotta be careful of that yeah just just be just
[01:54:40] be careful that if you're if you're a person that's naturally really a depth of
[01:54:43] jiu jitsu make sure you're not getting turning into a bully yeah and a lot of
[01:54:49] times that can block you from learning oh definitely block you because it's like
[01:54:52] why would I why would I start learning all this weirdo game like if you're
[01:54:55] strong wrestler like why would I start learning bottom game yeah if when I'm
[01:55:00] killing with all this other stuff I mean listen because there's someone that's a better
[01:55:03] wrestler than you yeah that's why or just knows the combination because a lot of times
[01:55:07] certain guys they'll they'll know the combo to beat wrestling yeah without having to do
[01:55:13] wrestling yeah make some guys that they're just like that you know so part of it
[01:55:18] jiu jitsu okay next question have you ever been so dug in on a solution or an
[01:55:25] opinion that it felt impossible to admit that you were in fact wrong
[01:55:29] so I actually almost gave up on this question and and
[01:55:37] because it's been I learned this lesson a long time ago that again the humility that you
[01:55:43] get from jiu jitsu and from combat and from life is that I very seldom dig in on
[01:55:52] something that I'm not 100% sure of yeah and and which means I don't dig in on a
[01:55:56] lot because I'm not a 100% sure of much right who can be a 100% sure of a lot of things
[01:56:01] and when I do do that it's not that hard for me to realize that I'm wrong
[01:56:05] stifle my ego admit it in change course it's not that big of a deal to me
[01:56:11] when I like I said when I do dig in on a subject or on a decision it's because I know
[01:56:17] like almost to a 100% certainty that I'm right otherwise I'm gonna leave myself a little bit of an
[01:56:22] out I'm not gonna just dig in on things that I can't be positive about because why
[01:56:29] would I why would I do that now when I end up being wrong if I do take a stance on
[01:56:36] something it's no big deal I'm gonna use that as an opportunity to show that I'm
[01:56:40] humble and show that I can admit when I'm wrong I'm gonna take advantage of a good
[01:56:43] I'm wrong good and you know so I would say just keep your options open keep an
[01:56:51] open mind when you feel yourself or your ego is digging in just check yourself
[01:57:00] and admit that you're wrong and move on and one thing I think that happens with people is people
[01:57:10] think that digging in and having a strong 100% opinion makes them a pure stronger or it makes
[01:57:20] their idea pure stronger but I don't think so I'm not saying to be wishy washy on stuff
[01:57:25] I'm just saying I don't have an open mind because I think that's the ultimate strength
[01:57:31] that's kind of my opinion I mean the last time I came close to digging in I was advising a company
[01:57:36] and they were going through some rough a little bit of a rough patch and they started multiple
[01:57:42] initiatives to try and turn some some things around and one of the initiatives
[01:57:47] of all the initiatives there was a couple that the CEO wanted done immediately and two of
[01:57:53] those initiatives when I looked at them I thought that they were redundant and so I said look
[01:58:00] I wouldn't waste I wouldn't do both these initiatives just pick one I think this one's the
[01:58:04] better one just do this one and I think it'll cover the problem and I convinced them
[01:58:10] and it was pretty easy to convince them because they were had limited resources at the time
[01:58:13] and limited assets so it wasn't like they had a bunch of stuff to spread around
[01:58:16] but he was pretty sad on it but I convinced them otherwise and he agreed and within a matter of
[01:58:20] days it started to look like I was wrong and it started to look like both systems were going to
[01:58:25] be needed to solve that specific issue so I didn't like wait I didn't say oh I hope that things go
[01:58:35] I said look hey I think I was wrong about this I think you were right let's get the other
[01:58:39] initiative going and let's get this problem covered and that's it and I'm telling you he didn't
[01:58:45] lose respect for me because I said hey I'm wrong after a few days of watching what the results are
[01:58:52] and making an early decision he actually thought it was awesome and he knew he's like hey I wish
[01:59:00] everyone could admit when they were wrong like that it would make everything around here so much
[01:59:04] easier and I said well that's why I'm here in the first place right is to help with that so
[01:59:10] just be conscious when you dig in you know because when you dig in you're actually when you
[01:59:15] dig in you're taking away your ability to maneuver oh yeah you don't want to do that it's good so
[01:59:22] so watch out now should I read this question because this is a question for echo Charles
[01:59:32] so that means I get you well it's two questions actually but I put them together because they're
[01:59:36] pretty close jocca willing what brought you and echo Charles together can we get the backstory there
[01:59:44] I like the chemistry echo Charles question for you to answer on jocco podcast what have you
[01:59:52] learned from jocco and how has your life changed since this is echo's first response to a question
[02:00:03] don't screw it up here we go I'll tackle you yeah yeah of course which is funny because that's kind
[02:00:12] of how what brought us together we're a part of what brought us together and I think it's good
[02:00:16] that I answer this part because you probably remember a lot less of it so
[02:00:24] I would say it was oh six I'd seen you like the first you know whatever within the first year
[02:00:31] of joining with Dean in 05 but I didn't know you didn't talk to you nothing like that I just
[02:00:36] had heard of you from Dean and then in like 06 when we moved over to the boxing club I rolled
[02:00:43] with you one time I was still a white belt and so that could have been still 05 I don't know and then
[02:00:50] you know you beat me up and you kind of you were just more like this stoic guy basically I would
[02:00:56] imagine the same guy that people interpret you to be from the outside you know kind of like not
[02:01:01] intense but just real like yeah just real matter of fact you know so you beat me up or whatever and
[02:01:06] then I was so I since I had already heard of you were Dean's black belt and you know all this stuff
[02:01:11] that I was like yeah that's about right you know he's you know good you do whatever beat me up
[02:01:16] but that wasn't really saying much because everyone was beating me up and then time went on I didn't
[02:01:20] see you for a while and then when I started to kind of get lost I was trained with Brent
[02:01:26] Brent yeah I was training with him and then with Alias a little bit and then I would come back
[02:01:33] I was competing and then you were just around for whatever reason and then yeah I just started
[02:01:38] training with you and I think that's the one we opened victory right yes is around the same time yeah
[02:01:44] yeah exactly and then um yeah well funny is that you never came off like once like like new you like
[02:01:51] immediately you never came off as this super intense person like it was more like you were just
[02:01:56] sarcastic like well you know like any other like any other of my friends but you could still always
[02:02:03] tell that there are something behind the scenes you know you know Darrogens said like he's seeing you
[02:02:07] and he was like there's I don't know this guy you know it's kind of got that same feeling but you
[02:02:12] were always just like oh yeah this real matter fact but fun funny like kind of person whatever
[02:02:20] like but when I say matter fact I mean like um like that one this one tournament when uh it was kind
[02:02:26] of later where I lost two genre Roberts and you got me with a go-go plata and you know when you
[02:02:31] lose in jujitsu training and that was the first time I lost in since I went advance you know because
[02:02:36] those doing a lot of no-gui I had never lost and genre Roberts gets me with a go-go plata so instead of
[02:02:42] you saying hey you know it's okay here nothing like that you send me a text you're sitting across
[02:02:46] the arena you're right there you send me a text hey you got caught with a go-go that's got a sting
[02:02:51] that's not a tournament it's not practice you can say that could stuff it was like oh whatever
[02:02:57] but I think that um that you know training together and just kind of getting you you you kind of
[02:03:03] had that thing that you could say that kind of stuff because really it's not that serious you know
[02:03:09] yeah when I don't think I don't there's there's not many people who could have conveyed that though
[02:03:14] you know it came it I think it had to come from you anyway so yeah that's kind of how
[02:03:21] we met and then um kind of after a while how did the idea of a podcast come up because we we kind
[02:03:29] of talked about that a little bit before I kind of forget the formation but it was in my mind
[02:03:35] when I went on jailroguins I think we had talked about hey you know we should do something I think
[02:03:40] you said to me like hey you should do it and so when I went on jailroguins and he said you should do a
[02:03:45] podcast I think what Tim Ferriss said hey you should do a podcast and then I kind of be you being
[02:03:50] a techie sound guy video guy I just said hey do you know how to make a podcast yeah that's right
[02:03:56] I just said hey how do you you know how to make a podcast so I need to make one yeah
[02:03:59] yeah yeah because everything to be just a total caveman right get how do you do I need a tape recorder
[02:04:05] what do I need you know that's what my answer then you said yeah I know I know how to do that I could
[02:04:11] make that happen and then you said it'd be cool instead of just you sitting there talking if you
[02:04:18] had someone to talk to and I said yeah you're right that would be cool and then you said it'd be cool
[02:04:22] if it was me yeah well my my selling point was that strange if it's just you right just sitting there
[02:04:30] you know it's it's more strange and it's better if you have someone to kind of bounce things off
[02:04:34] okay especially someone who can kind of be like oh I'm just every day guy like so I can like
[02:04:39] ask questions that kind of reiterate the point right just someone who might not get it
[02:04:43] yeah I had an awful lot out you know in my mind I did anyway but yeah then yeah obviously Joe
[02:04:49] Rogan was kind of the tipping point when he suggested it yeah yeah no that was a good gradient
[02:04:55] side from Joe Rogan and I'm glad he did and I'm glad you did and look at we did
[02:04:59] make this podcast happen so to answer the question what have I learned and this is interesting
[02:05:07] because I asked myself this exact same question like a week ago because I am literally a different
[02:05:12] person in ways that kind of are kind of surprising in a way so I'd say the first thing that's kind
[02:05:18] of kind of not that surprising but it's it's very prevalent is when people blame when I see people
[02:05:25] blaming other people or blaming me or I feel the compulsion to blame someone else it stands out
[02:05:31] like a sore thumb almost like if if I've been feeling that and it like almost like if I want to say
[02:05:37] something to to indicate that I'm going to blame someone or something it's almost like a red flag like
[02:05:43] I'm not allowed to do that in my own mind it's like it's hard in fast rule and like I said they just
[02:05:48] stand out like a sore thumb everywhere though on TV you know the guy not even my conversation oh I
[02:05:54] see what you're doing right there you know so it's like it's like your whole way of life in that
[02:05:59] regard is just shifted extreme ownership and the awareness of that seeing it and other people
[02:06:06] or lack of it and other people definitely stands out like crazy once you start thinking about it
[02:06:10] yeah and I have the luxury of being around you talking about these things talking about examples of it
[02:06:16] every week right so throughout the week I'm like I can't even help but notice it you know and it's
[02:06:21] right it helps man because it applies to everyone and everything like most relationships are going to
[02:06:26] apply these principles you know if you're involved in them so yeah it's all automatic now so so
[02:06:33] when it comes to ownership and really blaming myself if anyone and focusing on my responsibility
[02:06:40] in any scenario whatever it comes automatic now I would say so huge stuff I mean whether I make
[02:06:45] the right choices that's always going to be working probably progress I think but as far as that attitude
[02:06:50] it's automatic now that's awesome and then in regards to okay so I've always been into working
[02:07:00] out and so me not feeling like working out is I've always felt like working out so
[02:07:11] as far as not feeling like it that wasn't really a factor but in a bunch of other things in life
[02:07:16] it was a factor and so so you're saying we're not feeling like doing this and why you're
[02:07:24] seeing yeah like oh I got it I got to go to the post office today and that's on the low end and then
[02:07:29] or the other one is I don't know I get it I don't know something more important right but maybe
[02:07:34] I'll wait a wait till really the last minute or we know procrastination type stuff so you're getting
[02:07:40] into the here and now yeah and not feeling like it that means absolutely nothing something needs
[02:07:46] to be done and I don't feel like it and you know how like you have certain ideas already and then
[02:07:52] other ideas are introduced and then those ideas kind of mingle with your existing ideas and they
[02:07:57] formulate this whole new course of action right so the not feeling like it is no excuse that idea
[02:08:03] came in and so now like it morphed into this thing like me not feeling like it who guess what I'm
[02:08:10] going to do I'm going to do it right so it's almost like this personal challenge now you know and
[02:08:15] man as far as results go and you get everything done I get it so much stuff done and it's not
[02:08:20] some probably compared to you it's nothing but I get stuff done like so many things done during
[02:08:26] the day that I never thought that I could do that many things in a day that's all I'm always looking
[02:08:30] for maybe a rest or a nap or something like that but now everyone's all all be challenging myself
[02:08:35] to do as many things as I can and be like solid and on top of that and you're the one who said this
[02:08:41] was one time one of the things you were kind of tired and you were like you know what what I like
[02:08:46] this I like just grinding and grinding and grinding and then at the end of the day when I go
[02:08:50] it go to bed where my head just crashes into the pillow I like that and I was like yeah that sounds
[02:08:55] nice you know so when I approach things like that now and also I think of all the good things that have
[02:09:03] been done like great things and just good things whatever if these people didn't do it because they
[02:09:08] didn't feel like it like these things when they got done you know so if you got stuff to do
[02:09:15] you do it whether you feel like it or not that's what I have for myself now and the last thing
[02:09:24] is I kind of knew this but man it's so clear now that you can get certain messages and
[02:09:30] information and tips and tactics and stuff from from people or the internet or books or whatever
[02:09:36] but if you're not ready to accept them you just won't accept them or they'll just go in one
[02:09:44] year and out the other and a lot of time that has to do with who's saying it so
[02:09:49] if like I don't know your neighbor some goof off he's drinking a beer smoking a cigarette
[02:09:54] he's like hey guess what you know you should do this and it's that it can be this great advice
[02:09:58] being like I'm not going to listen to you I'm not even a listen to you I'm not even going to
[02:10:02] get past that part the fact that you're the one that saying this already walled me off from what
[02:10:07] you have to say and that's natural I think but a lot of these things like you're reading these old
[02:10:13] books that have these messages that you've been saying so it's not new stuff and a lot of stuff
[02:10:18] I heard that take responsibility for for your actions yeah that's not new you know if I
[02:10:23] bust out hey hey you guy on the street take responsibility for your actions if something comes
[02:10:28] up I'm just saying he'd be like yeah that's nothing new I wouldn't stand out but for some reason when
[02:10:33] you're saying it get you thinking yeah let me take responsibility you know so that so yeah it's say
[02:10:41] when it comes to listening to you this podcast all the you know the answers you have for these
[02:10:47] questions and any questions I even have it seems like it it comes and a process it way more readily
[02:10:55] than you know memes on Facebook or wherever you know say that that's awesome pretty true that's
[02:11:04] that's really cool that's that's great to hear and I've I mean I've definitely seen a transition
[02:11:11] in everything you're doing I mean everything you're doing is spot on yeah and that's legit you know
[02:11:18] it's legit to see it's legit to see someone moving towards their potential as a human yeah that's
[02:11:26] awesome to see yeah and another thing that kind of I came to as not a conclusion but it which is
[02:11:34] a result it's not a direct like you didn't tell me this but this is what all my existing thoughts
[02:11:39] mixed with all your input kind of arrived at one of the things is that it's up to you it's up to me
[02:11:46] what I spend my time doing totally up to me and it's up to me what I feel my head with so you know
[02:11:55] I like I used to have these shows that I love to I love to watch Hawaii 50 and Shark Tank and that's
[02:12:01] kind of it I don't really watch that much TV but those do that's maybe you know two hours or so
[02:12:08] that I could be reading something that's gonna help me through the rest of my life or getting better
[02:12:13] at something that's gonna help my you know relationships or career or something like that and I
[02:12:19] use that example because that seems pretty pretty like not in consequence because it's only two
[02:12:26] shows it's not like I spent 10 hours a day watching TV it's just two shows because no harm in that
[02:12:30] right but it's that's up to me I'm not missing out by missing Hawaii 50 not missing out that's not
[02:12:35] gonna affect my life in any negative way in the future at all I don't want to affect my life in
[02:12:39] any way actually but if I read something useful educate myself in you know whatever arena that's
[02:12:47] gonna improve my interests or my or my relationship or something like that that will that will help
[02:12:53] me yeah no I've that's one of the things I've noticed when I'd show show up at the studio
[02:12:58] and you'd say all's reading this book today about you know how we could get this to sound better
[02:13:03] and I read this thing about you know you're coming back and me with all this information
[02:13:07] and it was something that just transitioned in your brain where you said you know what I could be
[02:13:14] watching TV in wasting my mind or I could be applying myself and learning yeah and that's
[02:13:23] that makes a huge difference yeah this is what one of the things I read actually
[02:13:28] and I read it on I want to say Wikipedia this specific thing but there's this this automatic
[02:13:34] way of thinking and it's called hyperbolic discounting right and all that it all that means is
[02:13:42] you choose immediate payoffs versus and I kind of mentioned this before you choose immediate
[02:13:46] payoffs versus long-term payoffs right and it's there for a reason survival mechanism and all these
[02:13:51] ways but it's all that exists for an you know an environment that's not current so if you can
[02:13:58] basically be aware of that and combat that where don't do the immediate payoff things so
[02:14:04] just take take what you're about to do evaluated is this going to help me other than the pleasure
[02:14:08] that I think well whether that in regards to food drinking TV shows like if you watch reality TV
[02:14:17] check yourself on now and ask yourself is this going to help me in the future and typically
[02:14:24] that that answer for those types of things you're going to be know and then consider in alternative
[02:14:29] that you can do and a lot of the stuff can be pleasurable that will help you in the future and it's
[02:14:35] totally up to you it's totally up to you why not make the good choice yeah and the payoff not only
[02:14:40] is it bigger it lasts longer yeah and the immediate payoff is gone it's just a memory
[02:14:48] awesome that's awesome to hear and and actually we got that next comment here is sort of the same
[02:14:56] vein that's coming from and we get a bunch of you know emails but I just thought this one was
[02:15:02] was interesting to hear someone kind of talking about their transition here she says I'm one of
[02:15:08] many many people who live their lives as they think they should and end up mid 40s lost
[02:15:15] chubby and depressed I definitely don't hear a worship you but I'm truly grateful
[02:15:22] for your online presence I now get up at 5 a.m. daily and I screened grab my phone every morning
[02:15:29] as the alarm goes off and post that shot with another shot from my walk a few minutes in
[02:15:35] I walk for an hour daily and it started stretching daily for an hour but this doesn't stop there
[02:15:41] I now have a bunch of friends who are getting up early and going for a walk or going to the gym
[02:15:46] getting after it as you say we are all noticing an improvement in our lives so we might not be
[02:15:53] military or police we are not planning on becoming jiu jitsu champions at this stage we're just
[02:15:59] people who lost themselves lost their way who are finding their way back in part thanks to you
[02:16:09] I credit you at least twice a week and tell people to find you on Twitter I had to write here
[02:16:14] because there's no way I could fit this into 140 characters and thanks to Tim and Joe for having
[02:16:19] you on their shows that's where I found you have a great day so it really cool you know really cool
[02:16:25] to hear that really great to get that feedback and you know this is what I like about it
[02:16:33] but first of all you know I thank people who spread the words and it's really good to hear
[02:16:36] that feedback it fires me up to hear the feedback and when people say I motivate them I'm always
[02:16:41] like you motivate me you know that motivates me that you're out there getting up at 5 a.m.
[02:16:47] and turning your life around I think that's awesome and also what I what I liked about this
[02:16:53] was they pointed out that this isn't just military or police or jiu jitsu players it's for
[02:16:58] pretty much anybody in any station in life and any job any age man or woman any country and
[02:17:05] as a matter of fact I was in England and my wife from England and when I was in England I went and saw
[02:17:11] one of my wife's friends who I'm friends with the husband and you know here's this woman
[02:17:19] who's I don't know 40 something years old she's lives in England she's got three kids
[02:17:28] she's like couldn't be any further detached from me in my life
[02:17:33] and when I was I was hanging out with her husband in London before we went to their house
[02:17:39] and he said when we got on the train to go to his house he said listen you got to be ready
[02:17:43] and I'm like for what and he says my wife loves your podcast and I said really
[02:17:49] and he said no no no I'm serious she loves your podcast and we have dinner night she's going to
[02:17:54] ask you questions all my long she's been asking me the questions that she was going to ask you
[02:17:58] and so I showed up and seriously it was great she was asking me all these detailed questions about
[02:18:04] everything and it was really cool because I realized that this I mean this like I said this person
[02:18:09] doesn't do due to jitsu doesn't you know doesn't do anything that I do nothing
[02:18:17] and yet she was had all these lessons learned and all these things she had taken away and
[02:18:21] it was awesome to see that and it was an interesting too because that's I was talking to her
[02:18:25] it was on a Friday or a Saturday and as I'm talking to her she had listened to the latest podcast
[02:18:32] on the day before and so she was saying to me you know well yesterday you said this and yesterday
[02:18:38] you said that and so in her mind I was talking to her yesterday I was talking to her yesterday
[02:18:45] and that's when I kind of realized that how how impactful is what we talked about where you know
[02:18:51] where the words the podcast words are going directly into your brain and I've had a bunch of
[02:18:55] people say you know oh when you're talking oh you were telling this story and I wanted you to talk
[02:18:59] about this story you know for these are friends of mine and so so I think that's that's really cool
[02:19:05] and I think that's why a lot of people are getting into the game and enjoying it because and you
[02:19:10] just said it and I I say it all the time there's nothing new here and we're not
[02:19:17] given out any ground breaking techniques and there's no miracle drug and there's no three-minute
[02:19:23] exercise that's going to change your life I'm not selling the self-help reach your potential
[02:19:35] through this magical mystery I'm telling people what they already know and we're talking about
[02:19:42] things that people know to be right in their own heads like discipline and hard work and consistency
[02:19:48] those are the things and we all know those things but to everybody that's that's kind of
[02:19:58] known these things for a while but they've recently started to get after it good on you
[02:20:05] yeah and get on that path yeah if it feels like stay on that path that's what I'm talking about
[02:20:13] very cool I feel like like just like how you were saying like we a lot of this we already knew
[02:20:19] we already know about state discipline we already know about all this stuff or whatever but coming from
[02:20:25] you it helps and then on top of that I'm really starting to really understand and feel is that
[02:20:34] you know all like you on Twitter like you engage you know you like someone asks your questions
[02:20:39] it seems like you're engaging a lot more so than if somebody asks me question I'm going to answer
[02:20:46] their question yeah I'm not rude which is it I try to for sure I would imagine you'd be you know
[02:20:51] I have way more than me but kind of as a result of everything I feel like we're all kind of doing
[02:20:56] this together you know you know how the guys done in Australia they'll post all that you know
[02:21:00] a lot of people everyone they're posting there you know 430 a.m. wake up time to do this
[02:21:06] everyone yeah because that's what you did now guess what we're all doing it you know we're all doing
[02:21:10] it you're responding they're responding to you you're responding to them we're reading questions
[02:21:14] from them yeah I think I'm a weird like these are other people yeah and through this weird
[02:21:22] interweb they're actually asking questions from some unknown partner hold we're having a
[02:21:27] conversation basically yeah it's kind of delayed but yeah that's exactly what's going on so
[02:21:31] an example I should have just grabbed my phone and saw the half forget the guy's name but he was like
[02:21:36] hey echo Sunday workout Sunday this was like early this morning maybe late last night whatever
[02:21:42] Sunday workout give me one I need a Sunday workout so I was like oh okay so I gave him the workout it was
[02:21:48] basically two rounds five sets of cleaning clean and press five reps clean and press five times
[02:21:58] and then five burpees that's one set do five sets 45 seconds rest in between rest for two minutes
[02:22:03] and then do five more 45 seconds rest that's it I said use 135 pounds I only said 135 pounds because
[02:22:09] that's what that's the exact thing I do after I live and that's like to me that's the hard
[02:22:12] lifting side that hard but that part's kind of hard to me the metcon the metcon yeah so I'm like
[02:22:19] but I don't know maybe I don't know if I'm in good shape or not as far as that goes so I think
[02:22:22] I say you do it and use that weight but here's the thing if he's smaller I don't know how big he is
[02:22:29] we're just talking on Twitter you know so you know that put the weight didn't really matter
[02:22:33] hopefully scaled it properly or he said later on he was like dang that was pain but I feel great
[02:22:38] I was like solid he said hey but I adjusted the weight so I'm saying okay you know that makes sense
[02:22:44] but my two reasons why I was into that is because I wanted that interaction like hey do my work up
[02:22:51] you know and what I'm gonna do and I thought it was earlier this morning where
[02:22:55] or earlier today I'm gonna send him back say you give me a workout oh nice and I'm gonna do it
[02:23:01] and but make it something at least close to what you do or something you do and I'll give you
[02:23:05] your evaluation you know so hopefully I can get some variety and it'll help that interaction I think
[02:23:10] that's dope yeah like how he actually went and did it yeah I was like heck yeah it's good that
[02:23:14] some barn in Iowa or some yellow it was awesome good deal last question there must be some aspect
[02:23:25] of the Tutsi situation that I don't understand even if I'm on the losing side of the fight I still
[02:23:30] want to go down swing I could tell how much this affected jacco it would suck to be so close to such
[02:23:37] an unjust fight and not be able to do anything about it yes it it is hard to look at that situation
[02:23:49] and really understand it and it's horrible look back at it now and know that we didn't do anything about it
[02:23:59] but what can we do with it how can we apply this to everyday life because I agree with you
[02:24:11] you gotta go down swinging and I'll tell you this if you if you fight with all you've got
[02:24:19] more often than not you go down at all you win but you gotta make that attitude part of your
[02:24:34] everyday life the extra rep the extra mile the extra round the right choices to make yourself
[02:24:43] stronger mentally and physically stand and fight fight against weakness and against fear
[02:24:57] their fight against time and decay fight back go down swing it
[02:25:06] give every day everything you've got and when you face a challenge even something where you
[02:25:17] don't believe you can win maybe to situation where you cannot win but if you can't win
[02:25:25] remember this you have nothing to lose so stand up and go forward and go out in a blaze of glory
[02:25:40] fighting with everything you've got every ounce of energy every beat is sweat and every drop of blood
[02:25:48] to your last breath and then and only then you can stand down and you can put down your
[02:26:04] sword and you can put down your shield and rest in peace and I think that's all I've got for the
[02:26:24] night so thanks all you troopers out there tuning in and listening and thanks for remembering
[02:26:32] you know we started this off tonight with the statement of remembrance of some fallen warriors
[02:26:42] so thanks for remembering them remembering the past remembering war and the horror and the glory
[02:26:48] and the heroes thanks for remembering that and thanks for learning from them
[02:26:55] thanks for connecting with us through the interwebs you guys out there are opening my mind
[02:27:07] with the books that you're sending me the articles that you're sending me the videos you're
[02:27:11] sending me the connections you're making you're making us smarter so thank you and of course
[02:27:19] thanks for supporting the podcast listening downloading subscribing reviewing right reviews get on iTunes
[02:27:26] and write some reviews if you want if you feel like it yeah and then the other forums of support we got
[02:27:35] on it of course on it dot com slash jacco get 10% off boom get you some warrior bars right yeah
[02:27:42] yeah warrior bars is for sure and some offer brand of course and you read yeah or yeah or click
[02:27:51] or go to jacco podcast.com and before you shop in amazon click on amazon link then do your shop
[02:27:57] and that's cool donate if you want we got that now and yeah if you like the t-shirts and
[02:28:06] coffee mugs bumper stickers that we got on jacco store too yeah get some of those solid also
[02:28:14] if you want to add to the conversation when you're not listening to the podcast jacco is at
[02:28:19] jacco willing oh Twitter jacco willing and i'm at at echo Charles and you made the the
[02:28:27] Facebook too which has not been utilized as much yet right and i've been slowly checking them um
[02:28:32] all right check them we pulled questions from them okay good good okay so facebook dot com slash
[02:28:38] jacco podcast and i think slowly we're going to transition to getting the questions from there
[02:28:44] everywhere probably really for another good question the long questions i mean yeah that it's hard
[02:28:49] good stuff don't take pictures of long questions and post them because i copy and paste them into
[02:28:55] a document so yeah folks out there that took pictures of questions and i twitter jy back and said hey
[02:29:01] right that yeah so yeah cool yeah there it is boom yeah and if you uh if you're interested in the book
[02:29:10] lathe babbin and i wrote extreme ownership it's all these basic principles we talk about all the time
[02:29:15] you can get it hardcover kindle or you get an audio book which the audio book is myself and
[02:29:20] lathe reading it so or any books that you've covered on any of these podcasts that's on jacco store.com
[02:29:26] by the way so on the top menu you click on that that books and it'll show the description and what
[02:29:30] podcast it was on it's a journey you can buy them from that awesome so finally and most importantly
[02:29:37] to everybody out there you sit in there with your headphones on listening thank you thanks for deciding
[02:29:46] that you are going to hold the line that you're going to fight through the discomfort and the weakness
[02:29:53] and the pain and you're going to get up and get after it so until next time
[02:30:03] this is jacco and echo out