Jocko Podcast 16 - With Echo Charles | Machete Season

2016-04-01T05:41:03Z

Join the conversation: @jockowillink , @echocharles , www.facebook.com/JockoPodcast 0:00:00 – Opening 0:07:55 – Book review, “Machete Season: The Killers in Rawanda Speak” 1:17:50 – Onnit / Jocko Podcast Info and Support 1:21:17 – BJJ Competition mindset and training for Competition. 1:26:08 – Taking advantage of time off training. 1:34:56 – Dealing with orders you don’t agree with. 1:46:05 – What Supplements do Jocko and Echo take? 1:50:05 – Dealing with training troops in hard and tragic situations. 1:57:27 – Advice on workout schedule with newborn kids. 2:16:12 – What are the right questions to ask?

AI summary of episode

Sometimes, you know, well, actually all the time, if you, if you really want to feel like working out, you know, like, I feel like working out right now. And I've said this since day one, that's one of the things I talked about on the spot gas is, you know, I don't feel like I'm really good at helping, you know, people with causes and stuff like that. This is still going to be you, but, you know, this is going to sound real obvious and cliche, but the whole compromise thing, you know, when you guys have a punchy kids, you got to compromise that. You know, they learn how are they going to get through this, how are they going to adapt their life, how are they going to roll with one leg, how are they going to do pull ups with one hand. and I got real good at, you know, like the exercise, like gymnast can do it like on a palm or something. This much, you know, is different and A that goes along with what I said like communicating actively, you know, not like telling me that. You know, like, let's say every Tuesday you went to talk to us day or something like that and drank every Tuesday right before kids. And to prepare for them, you know, you got to, you got to, my favorite thing to do prepares, you know, you get to go. If you're going to do hard stuff that's like extended in a hard like you're just your crossfit situation or that kind of stuff. Yeah, that's a good way to, to put it, like, take advantage of it, like actively, because a lot of times like, where the problem comes about. But your wife is like, how can you reconcile going to train with your buddies, you know, because a lot of times the girlfriend and the wife will think that that's just some fun in games. I, you got all the time that gym I'm doing, you know, six rounds, seven rounds, you know, nine rounds, whatever the case may be. So again, you know, if you're getting wrapped up in some small nuanced thing, it it, it mentions the political, like if you're not politically congruent with, I don't know if you meant that split. And you asked, you know, like I said, you've got to ask those questions all the way up. You find out what it feels like when someone's going psycho on you because they're going to be going psycho. You know, because there were some people that even about the, even about the forgotten Highlander, there were some people that said, hey, you know, that's just too much. You know, you're not going to be just chilling in some guys guard or, you know, because because it's, you can possible chill in the garden. And now part of that, I got to, you know, in full disclosure, I was deployed a fair amount, but when you got those young kids, here's what you got to do. Like a lot of people, you know how people, some people really into supplements. And I mean, I was at a high level, you know, I mean, I was, I was, you know, a brown belt or a black belt at the time. Just like, you know, you put human beings living in the same village, you know, you end up marrying somebody from the other tribe. You know, you don't know what's going to happen when you go into the field. In fact, that's actually a good strategy in some cases, you know, when you got to recover or something like this. And I like I said I don't just want every time that you turn on this podcast to get crushed with something like this. I mean, obviously right now, we've got, you know, we got ISIS that are doing the same activities. And if you, but you know, still you're still going to have more time in your day, right? Yeah, it's not going to be as luxurious as, you know, you're not going to be optimum. It's almost like you have this hope, like, oh, it'll be soon or maybe the doctor said nine months, but maybe I could do it in four kind of thing.

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Episode transcript

[00:00:00] This is Jockel Podcast number 16 with echo Charles and me, Jockel Willink. Good evening, echo. Good evening.
[00:00:15] We couldn't have been more excited. It was a real mission. None of us had been on a real mission before, except for our LPO, our leading
[00:00:33] party officer who was in the first Gulf War and our Platoon Commander who was in on the Granada invasion, and fought at the radio tower. Those guys had this small amount of combat experience.
[00:00:49] But at the time for us that was a world apart from what we had because the rest of us had zero. This was the 90s. There was no war going on. And so now here we were with a real mission on deck.
[00:01:05] I think I was about 23 years old. I'm in my second seal, Platoon. And at the time, being in a seal, Platoon was literally the sole purpose and focus of my life. It was my whole world.
[00:01:27] That's what most of my Platoon mates were like as well. That's what we were. And this was an awesome Platoon. Great Platoon. The Arg Alpha Platoon.
[00:01:41] And as far as having tight friends and a brotherhood inside of a Platoon, this was definitely one of the best that I was ever in. If not the best.
[00:01:53] And all of us were just 100% about being in a seal for two. And it was the world to us. And we didn't care about being care about anything else really.
[00:02:03] Not politics, domestic politics or international politics. We weren't sitting around and reading newspapers. And we barely even watched the news at this time. We were deployed on a ship. There was no internet.
[00:02:19] We were troopers. We were Aaron Boyz as Colonel Kurtz says in Apocalypse Now. We didn't know about the policy, but we sure as hell wouldn't force it.
[00:02:35] And so we had this mission. And we were fired up. We were like I said, we were on a ship. And we were off the coast of Africa. And there was something going on in one of the countries there.
[00:02:50] And during the last deployment that seals did on a ship at this time, there was some of our fellow seals, guys that we knew had gone into Somalia.
[00:03:00] And so that was a real mission. And we kind of thought maybe this will be our opportunity. And probably seven or eight months prior to this, the Battle of Mogadishu had taken place, which is where the movie Black Hawk Down came from. So this was Africa. This was like our chance to get into some kind of combat.
[00:03:20] And we started hearing more about the situation where they might send us. It looked like we're going to go in and provide some kind of security.
[00:03:30] And then it looked like we're going to go in and maybe help some Americans that were there and get them out. And then it looked like we might go in and reinforce some kind of UN troops.
[00:03:38] And like a bunch of missions and they kind of changed as the situation developed. And we started reading about what was happening and what we're going to be going to do and what the situation was there on the ground.
[00:03:51] And I didn't understand it at first.
[00:03:56] But there was people killing each other by the thousands, by the tens of thousands, by the hundreds of thousands.
[00:04:11] Hundreds of thousands of people were being killed. But it wasn't like a war that, you know, I had read about it, I'd seen in the movies.
[00:04:23] They weren't shooting each other with guns or dropping bombs on each other.
[00:04:29] They were, they were using machetes. Like a horror movie, hundreds, hundreds of thousands of people being butchered.
[00:04:48] And what was it all about? It was a tribal difference. That's barely distinguishable to us. I mean, it's barely distinguishable for them.
[00:05:04] The country was Rwanda. And the event came to be known as the Rwanda genocide. Mass-merger primarily of Tutsi tribesmen by the rival Houtu clan.
[00:05:27] Now, war or something that I can rationalize, right? Maybe I shouldn't be able to do that. But I can. I mean, there's some kind of wrong or evil in the world that needs to be stood up against me.
[00:05:45] You know, is it fascism? Is it tyranny? Is it terrorism? It's forces of darkness. And their pitted against forces of light, forces of freedom and democracy.
[00:05:59] And as I say all the time, war is hell. And it should be a last resort when everything else has failed.
[00:06:12] And that being said war is necessary sometimes to stop evil. And sometimes it's the only way to stop evil.
[00:06:25] But this idea here, this situation where people are killing each other in a mob type scenario.
[00:06:37] And they're literally doing it like a haremovie. I don't know how else to explain it. It's like a horror movie that seems to insane and to bloody to even be believable.
[00:06:48] You take the worst haremovie you can imagine with the worst plotline. And this makes less sense.
[00:07:01] It wouldn't even be believable if it was a horror movie. It's too much. It's too violent and too ruthless.
[00:07:10] And there's too much to even comprehend or understand.
[00:07:21] And this is, I mean, I hope that this is somewhere at the limit of the evil that human beings are capable of.
[00:07:41] You hear me talk about the darkness, the evil in the world.
[00:07:52] Well, this is it. And I'm going to the book now. The book is called Machetti Season.
[00:08:10] The Killers in Rwanda speak.
[00:08:18] During that killing season, we rose earlier than usual to eat lots of meat.
[00:08:24] We went up to the soccer field at around 9 or 10. We would go off on the attack.
[00:08:32] Rule number one was to kill. There was no rule number two.
[00:08:38] It was an organization without complications. The judge told everyone, everyone there,
[00:08:48] that from then on we were to do nothing but kill tootsies.
[00:08:53] Well, we understood that was a final plan. The killing of every tootsie without exception.
[00:09:02] It was simply said and it was simple to understand.
[00:09:10] There were some who asked if there were any priorities the judge answered sternly.
[00:09:16] There is no need to ask how to begin. The only worthwhile plan is to start straight ahead into the bush and right now without hanging back behind any more questions.
[00:09:31] When you get right down to it, it is a gross exaggeration to say we organized ourselves.
[00:09:39] The killings began without much planning. The only regulation was to keep going till the end.
[00:09:45] Maintain a satisfactory pace, spare no one and loot what we found.
[00:09:51] It was impossible to screw up.
[00:09:56] That's one of the craziest things about this book. Again, the book is called Machetti Season.
[00:10:01] It's the killers in Rwanda speak. So this author, John Hetzfeld,
[00:10:10] he went into the prison where these people are now being kept to talk to them about what they did and its their own words.
[00:10:22] In the preface to the book, just to give you a little bit of background, ours is a Paulingly an age of genocide.
[00:10:32] But even so, what happened in Rwanda in the spring of 1994 stands out in several ways.
[00:10:38] In a tiny landblocked African country smaller than the state of Maryland,
[00:10:43] some 800,000 people were hacked to death, one by one by their neighbors.
[00:10:50] The women, men and children who were slaughtered were of the same race and shared the same language,
[00:10:57] customs and confession. They were Roman Catholic as those who eagerly slaughtered them.
[00:11:09] And I'll tell you, I was seriously considering not doing this podcast.
[00:11:19] And it's this book, Sam Harris, acquaintance of mine who does podcasts, who I was on his podcast,
[00:11:31] a very smart guy, brilliant guy, and he sent me an email and said, hey, Jocco, check out this book.
[00:11:43] And he said, it's about the Rwanda genocide.
[00:11:47] And I immediately said, hey, I was there. I mean, it wasn't on the ground,
[00:11:51] but we were there waiting to go in, so I immediately knew what he was talking about.
[00:11:56] And he said, you know, basically said, it's by the killers. And so I immediately ordered it on Amazon.
[00:12:05] And it seems like I got it and I just read it.
[00:12:09] And at first I was excited, you know, thinking, oh, this is really this is going to be impactful.
[00:12:13] But as I went deeper and deeper into it, I started saying to myself, maybe I don't do this podcast.
[00:12:20] Maybe I don't do it. Because like I said, it's almost too much. I think it is too much.
[00:12:31] And for that very reason, I'm going to do it.
[00:12:39] Because we can't. We must not deny that evil exists and that humans can be evil.
[00:12:52] And as the preface of the book continues, our obligation, and it is an obligation, is to take what human beings are capable of doing to one another,
[00:13:07] not spontaneously, crimes of this order are never spontaneous, but when mobilized to think of other human beings,
[00:13:14] people who are their school friends, neighbors, co-workers, and fellow parishioners,
[00:13:21] as not human beings at all. And when it organized for and directed to the task of slaughter,
[00:13:30] for the issue finally is not judgment. It is understanding.
[00:13:37] To make the effort to understand what happened in Rwanda is a painful task that we have no right to shirk.
[00:13:46] It is part of being a moral adult.
[00:13:53] So now let's listen to these people, and that might be a stretch.
[00:14:01] But let's listen to what these people had to say.
[00:14:08] At the beginning, we were too fired up to think. Later on, we were too used to it.
[00:14:14] In our condition, it meant nothing to us to think we were busy cutting our neighbors down to the last one.
[00:14:20] It became a goes without saying. They had already stopped being good neighbors of long standing,
[00:14:26] the ones who handed around the Rwaga can at the Cabaret, or Rwaga's like a banana beer,
[00:14:35] since they wouldn't be there anymore. They had become people to throw away, so to speak.
[00:14:42] They were no longer what they had been, and neither were we.
[00:14:47] They did not bother us, and the past did not bother us, because nothing bothered us.
[00:14:55] And so the Tutsis were driven immediately. They tried to escape to this area that they called the marshes,
[00:15:03] which are outside the hills that people lived in the hills and they tried to escape.
[00:15:07] The Tutsis tried to escape to the marshes, and another one of the murderers says,
[00:15:13] kindness too was forbidden in the marshes. The marshes left no room for exceptions.
[00:15:19] To forget doubt, we had meanness and ruthlessness in killing, and a job to do and do well, that's all.
[00:15:30] Some changed color from the hunting. Their limbs were muddy, their clothes were splattered,
[00:15:36] even their faces were not black in the same way. They became grayish from everything they had done.
[00:15:43] A little layer of stink covered us too, but we didn't care.
[00:15:48] We no longer saw a human being when we turned up a Tutsis in the swamps.
[00:15:53] I mean, a person like us sharing similar thoughts and feelings.
[00:15:58] The hunt was savage. The hunters were savage. The prey was savage. Savage took over the mind.
[00:16:14] The more we killed, the more greediness urged us on.
[00:16:19] Greedyness, if left unpunished, it never lets you go. You could see it in our eyes bugged out by the killings.
[00:16:28] It was even dangerous. There were those that came back in the bloodstained shirts,
[00:16:34] brandishing their machetes, shrieking like madmen, saying they wanted to grab everything.
[00:16:39] We had to calm them down with drinks and soothing words because they could turn ugly for those around them.
[00:16:46] Man can get used to killing, if he kills on and on. He can even become a beast without noticing it.
[00:16:54] Some threatened one another when they had no more Tutsis under the machete.
[00:16:59] In their faces, you could see the need to kill.
[00:17:04] Me, I was not scared of death. In a way, I forgot I was killing live people.
[00:17:11] I no longer thought about either life or death, but the blood struck terror into me.
[00:17:17] It's stank and dripped. At night I tell myself, after all, I am a man full of blood.
[00:17:24] All this spurting blood will bring me catastrophe, a curse.
[00:17:29] Death did not alarm me, but that overflow of blood that yes, a lot.
[00:17:41] One of the things that they talk about in the book is in this part of the continent.
[00:17:53] They use a machete for everything. They cut down brush with it, they slaughter the animals with it.
[00:18:01] They cook their dinners with it. They do everything with a machete.
[00:18:05] Everybody is just sort of, it's their iPhone. Everyone has its smart phone.
[00:18:14] That's what they use for everything. We do an America. We use a smart phone.
[00:18:18] They make a machete for everything. That's how they get their food. That's how they clear out their house.
[00:18:23] That's how they build. I mean, it's everything they do. They do with America.
[00:18:26] So everyone's very comfortable with a machete.
[00:18:31] A boy with the strength in his arms to hold the machete firmly.
[00:18:35] If his brother or father brought him along in the group, he imitated and grew used to killing.
[00:18:41] You've no longer hampered him. He became accustomed to blood. Killing became an ordinary activity since our elders and everyone did it.
[00:18:52] Or a young boy might even prove more at ease with it than an experienced oldster,
[00:19:00] because death touched him farther away.
[00:19:04] Given the novelty of the circumstances and his young age, death seemed less important to him, he saw it as belonging to an older generation.
[00:19:13] He shrugged off his perils and considered it a distraction.
[00:19:24] It became a madness that went on all by itself.
[00:19:29] You raced ahead or you got out of the way to escape being run over, but you followed the crowd.
[00:19:36] The one who rushed off machete in hand, he listened to nothing anymore. He forgot everything.
[00:19:43] First of all, his level of intelligence.
[00:19:47] Doing the same thing every day meant we didn't have to think about what we were doing.
[00:19:52] We went out and came back without having a single thought.
[00:19:56] We hunted because it was the order of the day until the day was over.
[00:20:00] Our arms ruled our heads. In any case, our heads no longer had their say.
[00:20:07] We became more and more cruel, more and more calm, more and more bloody.
[00:20:14] But we did not see that we were becoming more and more killers.
[00:20:19] The more we cut, the more cutting became child's play to us for a few it turned into treat if I may say so.
[00:20:37] That's one of the things they do is they use some words like cut and what they mean is slaughter and murder,
[00:20:44] but they use kind of a term that's less attractive to you for mism.
[00:20:51] At the start of the killings, we worked fast and skimmed along because we were eager.
[00:20:57] In the middle of the killings, we killed casually.
[00:21:02] We killed to keep the job going.
[00:21:05] Some were tired of these blood assignments. Others amused themselves by torturing tutsis,
[00:21:11] who had made them sweat day after day.
[00:21:21] Since I was killing often, I began to feel it did not mean anything to me.
[00:21:26] It gave me no pleasure. I knew I would not be punished. I was killing without consequences.
[00:21:32] I adapted without a problem.
[00:21:36] I left every morning free and easy in a hurry to get going.
[00:21:41] I saw that the work and the results were good for me. That's all.
[00:21:48] During the killings, I no longer considered anything in particular in the tutsi except that the person had to be done away with.
[00:21:58] I was going to make it clear that from the first gentleman I killed to the last, I was not sorry about a single one.
[00:22:08] Now, as I said, it was difficult for tutsi to tell who's who.
[00:22:25] Right, they had the same culture, they had the same language, they looked the same.
[00:22:30] And you might be wondering how did they know who was who?
[00:22:35] Well, the author explains that somewhat here.
[00:22:39] And it is just...
[00:22:43] Well, I'll go to the book.
[00:22:46] After the genocide, many foreigners wondered how the huge number of who two killers recognized their tutsi victims in the upheaval of the massacres.
[00:22:58] Since Rwandans of both ethnic groups speak the same language with no distinctive differences, live in the same places,
[00:23:06] and are not always physically recognizable by distinctive characteristics.
[00:23:12] The answer is simple.
[00:23:15] The killers did not have to pick out their victims.
[00:23:18] They knew them personally.
[00:23:21] Everyone knows everything in a village.
[00:23:26] So, they didn't have to, yes.
[00:23:30] They didn't have to identify them by a different skin color or by a different facial structure or by a different language.
[00:23:39] They knew them.
[00:23:50] A teacher and a survivor of the marshes confirms the principle and the inspector of schools in my district participated in the killings with nail-studded clubs.
[00:24:05] Teachers, priests, the burgo master, a sub-prefect, a doctor.
[00:24:13] They all killed with their own hands.
[00:24:16] They wore pressed cotton trousers.
[00:24:18] They had no trouble sleeping.
[00:24:20] They traveled around in vehicles or on light motorcycles.
[00:24:23] These well-educated people were calm and they rolled up their sleeves to get a good grip on their machetes.
[00:24:31] For someone who has spent his life teaching the humanities,
[00:24:35] as I have such criminals are a fearful mystery.
[00:24:41] So, like the preists, the burgo master, which is like a kind of a germ name of someone that's a
[00:24:54] complete, a political person, a political magistrate, and a town, or a sub-prefect.
[00:25:00] A sub-prefect is someone that's in command, someone of authority, especially in the Catholic church.
[00:25:06] So, these people, with their nice shirts and nice pants, were rolling up their sleeves to get a good grip on their machetes.
[00:25:15] At first, the killing was obligatory.
[00:25:18] Afterwards, we got used to it. We became naturally cruel.
[00:25:24] We no longer needed encouragement or fines to kill, or even orders or advice.
[00:25:32] Discipline was relaxed because it wasn't necessary anymore.
[00:25:38] I don't know anyone who was struck because he refused to kill.
[00:25:43] I know of one case of punishment by death, a special case, a woman.
[00:25:48] Some people caught her to punish her husband who had refused to kill, but she was in fact a tootsie.
[00:25:56] Afterwards, the husband took part without whining.
[00:26:00] In fact, he was one of the busiest in the marshes.
[00:26:05] So, these tribal, the hooties and the tootsies were married to each other.
[00:26:09] Just like, you know, you put human beings living in the same village, you know, you end up marrying somebody from the other tribe.
[00:26:20] And if you didn't go with the system, you were getting murdered.
[00:26:28] In the evening, we had to report to the leader about exactly what we had killed.
[00:26:35] Many boasted for fear of being taunted or frowned on.
[00:26:38] That was also a good reason why we did not bury the bodies.
[00:26:42] Someone suspected of faking, could guide the verifiers to the truth.
[00:26:51] Anyone who had the idea of not killing for a day could get out of it no problem.
[00:26:57] But anyone with the idea of not killing at all could not let on, or he himself would be killed while others watched.
[00:27:06] Voicing disagreement out loud was fatal on the spot.
[00:27:11] So we don't know if people had that idea.
[00:27:15] In the evening, after the killings, there was time for friendship and meeting friends brought us light hearts.
[00:27:24] We would chat about our days, we shared drinks, we ate.
[00:27:28] We no longer counted up what we had killed.
[00:27:31] But what it was that it would bring us.
[00:27:35] The killings had made us gossipy and greedy.
[00:27:38] So that's one of the things that drove was they got to you kill a family, you take whatever you want from them,
[00:27:44] including their land, including all their property, everything.
[00:27:49] So that's what they talk about, they become greedy.
[00:27:55] And then at a certain point, the authorities no longer had the ability to plan or to channel.
[00:28:01] Their orders fell on deaf ears, the massacres had become extraordinary beyond all reason.
[00:28:10] The keenest ones, when they killed, grabbed the possessions of the dead,
[00:28:14] they wanted everything right away, not even stopping to finish off their victims.
[00:28:19] The looting excited them so much they needed no advice or encouragement.
[00:28:25] Their greed spread to those who followed, who went crazy and turned.
[00:28:30] We began the day by killing, we ended the day by looting.
[00:28:37] It was the rule to kill going out and loop coming back.
[00:28:41] We killed in teams, but we looted every man for himself, or in small groups of friends.
[00:28:49] Those who killed a lot had less time to pillage.
[00:28:56] But since they were feared,
[00:28:59] they would catch up because of their power.
[00:29:06] So, hey, if I go out and kill the most people, I don't have that much time to loot.
[00:29:10] That's okay, because everyone's scared of me.
[00:29:13] Yeah, so they kind of let you.
[00:29:19] Some killers claimed girls in the marshes, that satisfied them,
[00:29:25] and made them neglect looting.
[00:29:29] They figured they'd catch up the next day.
[00:29:33] Now, here's a, again, this is going back to the author.
[00:29:39] There's not direct quotes from the killers, but the author's kind of telling a story about a situation that happened.
[00:29:50] One of the murderers witnessed the passage of armoured cars.
[00:29:55] So, the international community community, like you.
[00:29:58] You heard me talking about the fact that I was on a ship with seals with marines.
[00:30:03] That could have done something here, but we didn't do anything.
[00:30:05] Actually, the marines went in and provided a little of tiny bit of aid.
[00:30:08] I think they sent 30 guys in.
[00:30:10] But there was nothing, nothing to what did it had, you know, a very minimalistic impact.
[00:30:17] But what happened was civilized people left.
[00:30:22] And so they see armoured cars coming.
[00:30:28] And they caused it here, now this is going to one of the killers talking.
[00:30:32] They caused a big panic among us who are already robbing in the streets,
[00:30:36] heating themselves up with sudden bursts of gunfire.
[00:30:39] Some of them shouted, the whites are here, others will come.
[00:30:42] They have terrible weapons, it's all over for us.
[00:30:45] When they saw the convoy disappear in the dust without even a little stop for curiosity,
[00:30:51] or a drink on the main street, they celebrated with some primus, which is getting alcohol
[00:30:56] and shot off the cartridges and their guns as a sign of relief.
[00:31:00] You could see they felt saved.
[00:31:03] They were rid of the last stumbling block, so to speak.
[00:31:09] At the same time in Kigale, which is the capital, whites were leaving the embassies.
[00:31:14] Offices, monasteries, and universities via road-convoys to neighboring countries,
[00:31:20] and an emergency airlift operating out of the airport.
[00:31:26] Very few foreigners saw refugee, saw refuge in guarded villas, but no foreigners were left.
[00:31:35] And now this is, again, this is the commentary from the author.
[00:31:43] Not one foreigner, priest, service core volunteer, diplomat, NGO worker, none can provide a convincing reason
[00:31:54] for this immediate and astonishing flight during the opening hours of the killings.
[00:32:00] In any case, neither danger nor panic can justify such haste.
[00:32:06] The most telling explanation I have heard so far,
[00:32:10] comes from Claudine Caisté, a farmer and soup and survivor on the hill,
[00:32:17] when she says reversing our proverb, whites do not want to see what they cannot believe,
[00:32:25] and they could not believe a genocide, because that is a killing that overwhelms everyone,
[00:32:32] them as much as the others.
[00:32:36] And so they left.
[00:32:43] Now, the thing that sparked this, there was a leader, there had been a revolutionary, a civil war going on,
[00:32:59] and it was the Rwandan civil war going on, and it was between the Hutu-led government
[00:33:06] and the Rwandan patriotic front, or the RPF.
[00:33:10] And so the RPF was largely composed of tootsies, and a lot of them had fled to Uganda,
[00:33:17] but now they were saying, hey, let's go back.
[00:33:21] And there was a bunch of pressure, international pressure on the government,
[00:33:27] which was led by the president of Rwanda named Habiari-Mana.
[00:33:35] So Habiari-Mana felt all this pressure, and so they made peace,
[00:33:41] and then what happened was on April 6th, 1994,
[00:33:45] an airplane that had Habiari-Mana in it was shot down, and everyone was killed, including him.
[00:33:54] And that was it. So the Hutu president was killed, but his aircraft was shot down, and that was it.
[00:34:00] And I pulled this little paragraph here from Wikipedia.
[00:34:05] Genocidal killings began the following day, soldiers, police, and militia, quickly executed key tootsie,
[00:34:12] and moderate Hutu leaders. So they were just getting after it.
[00:34:16] Then erected checkpoints and barricades and used Rwanda's national identity cards to systematically kill tootsies.
[00:34:23] So in the 30s, they had implemented this system where you would put whatever tribe you were in,
[00:34:29] because it was so hard to tell who was who.
[00:34:32] And they just used those identification cards.
[00:34:38] These forces recruited or pressured Hutu civilians to arm themselves with machetes, clubs, blunt objects,
[00:34:45] and other weapons to rape, maim, and kill their tootsie neighbors, and to destroy or steal their property.
[00:34:52] But one of the major influences on the people was radio, was radio.
[00:35:06] And as leading up to this, you had this situation where they were broadcasting sort of,
[00:35:15] I guess I guess it's what we call hate speech.
[00:35:19] You know, that's what we call it. Only this was actual hate speech, going to the book.
[00:35:25] In the broadcast studios of popular radio stations, radio Rwanda, the tootsies were referred to as cockroaches,
[00:35:34] announcers the two best known of whom were Simon, Bikindi, and Contano used humorous sketches and songs to call openly for the destruction of the tootsies.
[00:35:48] One of the killers, remembers, those gen, and actually this guy was a, yeah, using one of the killers.
[00:35:57] Those gentlemen were famous artists in great comic virtue of us.
[00:36:01] What they said was so cleverly put and repeated so offies, often that tootsies themselves found them funny to listen to.
[00:36:09] They were clamoring for the massacre of all the cockroaches, but amusing ways.
[00:36:15] And for the tootsies, those witty words were hilarious, so they're actually hearing this and laughing about it.
[00:36:21] The songs urging all who choose to get together to wipe out the tootsies, we laughed out loud at the jokes.
[00:36:30] And they made this who to ten commandments, which is basically it's a document.
[00:36:36] You look it up on Wikipedia. It's just a document that's the ten commandments.
[00:36:40] If you marry a tootsie woman, she should be killed. I mean, it's brutal.
[00:36:47] Absolutely brutal.
[00:36:50] And now this is, this is, I found this piece fascinating, continuing to talk about the, the radio.
[00:37:05] And this is, this is a statement, and this is interesting because we're on a podcast.
[00:37:14] And I listened to podcasts, and I haven't talked about this before.
[00:37:20] But when I was a kid, I listened to radio shows.
[00:37:25] And I understood the power of them.
[00:37:28] I listened to a radio show, and I'll have to look and see where it is now.
[00:37:31] It was called the Doctor Demento Show.
[00:37:34] And the Doctor Demento Show was this, it was on like Sunday nights at 10 o'clock on some college radio station in New England.
[00:37:43] And it would just have various, it was like a variety show.
[00:37:48] And they'd have a comedic part and there'd be like a twilight zone type thing.
[00:37:51] But I would sit there like we do with podcasts now, and I'd put the headphones on,
[00:37:56] and I'd get in the zone, and I would listen.
[00:38:00] And you realize, and you realize this when you get into a podcast,
[00:38:05] you realize there's a certain power to it.
[00:38:09] There's a certain power to listening to a person, and their voice going into your head.
[00:38:18] And there's a, there's a piece about this inside the book, and it just nailed me.
[00:38:26] It's, it's a remark made by Serge Dany, who was an essayist,
[00:38:31] and he's talking about the first Gulf War.
[00:38:34] But what he says about radio, and he would be obviously saying this about podcasts now,
[00:38:42] is that radio is far and away the most dangerous of the media.
[00:38:49] It wields a unique and terrifying power, once the state or an institutional apparatus collapses.
[00:38:58] It casts off everything that might attenuate or sidetrack the force of words.
[00:39:06] In a chaotic situation, radio can prove to be the most efficient tool of democracy,
[00:39:13] as well as a revolution or fascism, because it penetrates unhindered to the individual's deepest core,
[00:39:22] anywhere at any moment, immediately, without the necessary and critical distance inherent
[00:39:32] in the reading of a text or an image.
[00:39:39] So when you listen to a podcast, that's such a great note to explain why radio has so much power.
[00:39:49] You don't even have to interpret the words.
[00:39:51] You don't have to interpret an image.
[00:39:53] The words are going into your head, and they use it.
[00:40:00] They use it in situations like this, and one of the killers said,
[00:40:05] Ever since the plane crashed, so ever since the president was shot down, the radio had hammered at us.
[00:40:12] The foreigners are departing.
[00:40:15] They had material the proof of what we are going to do, and they are leaving.
[00:40:20] This time around, they are showing no interest in the fate of the Tutsis.
[00:40:26] We witnessed that flight of the armored cars along the road with our own eyes.
[00:40:32] Years no longer heard murmurs of approach.
[00:40:38] For the first time ever, we did not feel we were under the frowning supervision of the whites.
[00:40:46] Other incuragments followed that assured us of unchecked freedom to complete the task.
[00:40:55] So we thought, good, it's true.
[00:40:58] The blue helmets did nothing except an about face to leave us alone.
[00:41:03] And if you don't know what blue helmets are, when you're working as a United Nations peacekeeper,
[00:41:08] they give you a blue helmet.
[00:41:10] And anybody can fill that role any nation that's part of the UN, Americans fill that role from time to time, but any nation can do it.
[00:41:17] So he's saying that the blue helmets did nothing except an about face to leave us alone.
[00:41:23] Why would they come back before it's all over?
[00:41:26] At that signal, off we went.
[00:41:31] We were certain of killing everyone without drawing evil looks, without getting a scolding from a white or a priest.
[00:41:40] We joked about it instead of pressing our advantage.
[00:41:44] We felt too at ease with an unfamiliar job that had gotten off to a good start.
[00:41:50] But time and laziness played an ugly trick on us. Basically, we became too sure of ourselves.
[00:41:57] We slowed down and that overconfidence is what did us in.
[00:42:03] So let's hear a little bit about the psychological impact of what's happening to the book.
[00:42:13] Routes kept on slaughtering cows after the killings because they couldn't put down their machetes.
[00:42:21] During the killings, we had not won wedding, not won baptism, not won soccer match, not won religious service, like Easter.
[00:42:31] We did not find that kind of celebration interesting anymore.
[00:42:35] We did not care spit for Sunday silliness.
[00:42:38] We were dead tired from work, we were getting greedy, we celebrated whenever we felt like it.
[00:42:43] We drank as much we wanted, some turned into drunks.
[00:42:48] Anyone who felt sad about someone he had killed really had to hide his words and his regrets for fear of being seen as an accomplice and being treated roughly.
[00:42:59] Sometimes, drinkers went mean when they had found no one to kill that day.
[00:43:05] Others went mean because they had killed too much.
[00:43:10] You had to show them a smiling face or watch out.
[00:43:18] Different personalities. Some guys are going crazy because they're not killing enough and some guys are killing crazy because they're killing too much.
[00:43:32] A youth could hide a girl he had brought back from the marshes to have her behind a pen or a clump of bushes.
[00:43:41] But when he had had enough or when tongue started wagging, in other words when people started talking about the fact that he had brought one of these girls back, he had to kill her to avoid a serious penalty.
[00:43:54] We had sessions with girls who were raped in the bush, nobody dared protest that. Even those who were edgy about it because they had received blessings in church, for example, told themselves it would change nothing, since the girl was marked for death anyways.
[00:44:13] There were two kinds of rapists. Some took the girls and used them until the end, even on the flight to the Congo.
[00:44:22] They took advantage of the situation to sleep with the prettiest tutsies and an exchange showed them a little bit of consideration.
[00:44:30] Others caught them just to fool around with for having sex and drinking, they raped for a little while and then handed them over to be killed right afterward.
[00:44:39] There were no orders from the authorities. The two kinds were free to do as they pleased.
[00:44:49] Now we get into a story.
[00:44:56] I don't know what to call it other than a story, a travesty, a horror.
[00:45:05] Coming from one of the workers at a little, basically a little Christian hospital.
[00:45:19] They surrounded the maternity hospital. They ripped down the gates, they simply shot up the locks.
[00:45:28] They wore very handsome cartridge belts of highly polished leather, but they wanted to avoid wasting bullets.
[00:45:38] They killed the women with machetes and clubs.
[00:45:45] Whenever one of the more agile girls managed to escape in the commotion and get out of window, she was caught in the gardens.
[00:45:55] When a mama had hidden her child beneath her, they picked her up first, then cut the child, then cut its mother last.
[00:46:07] They didn't bother to cut the nursing infants properly.
[00:46:13] They slammed them against the walls to save time or hurled them alive onto the heaps of corpses.
[00:46:24] That morning, we were more than 300 women and children.
[00:46:29] That evening in the garden, there were only five women left, spared because they were lucky to have been born who too.
[00:46:45] The author goes into a statement here about a tradition in wartorn areas where there's some sort of friendship or some love that makes people do things that are outside the bounds of what the norm of what the massacres are helping the opposite side or whatever.
[00:47:13] So he says this, people who have lived through war often tell wonderful stories about friendships, incredible romances, amazing gestures of solidarity,
[00:47:24] comical and poignant collaborations between protagonists and enemy camps, or humble and admirable deeds. It all provides material for novels, songs, films, and evenings of memories, and it patches things up between you and humanity.
[00:47:46] French and German constrips, conscripts chatted across the trenches, and swapped tins of potted meat.
[00:47:55] Algerians hid French colonists with whom they played cards, a Vichy minister foiled the deportation of a colleague with whom he went to school.
[00:48:05] It was the same in Vietnam, Ireland, Lebanon, and Gola, El Salvador, Israel, Cheshna, in the name of passion, childhood, a clan, elemental things like affection or loyalty.
[00:48:27] But here, we find not one camaraderie impulse among teammates, not one gesture of compassion for helpless babies at the breast.
[00:48:41] No bond of friendship or love that survived from a church choir or an agricultural cooperative.
[00:48:49] No civil disobedience in a village, no rebellious adolescent in a gang of budding tuffs.
[00:48:56] And not a single escape network, although it would have been easy to have set one up in the 40 kilometers of uninhabited forest between the marshes and the Burundae border.
[00:49:07] No convoy, no links among the Herders' paths, no web of hiding places to allow the evacuation of survivors.
[00:49:20] Nothing. And he continues to talk about really the difference between genocide and war.
[00:49:32] In war, men are killed first because they are the most apt to fight back.
[00:49:38] The next targets are women liable to help them, and boys because they try to continue the conflict.
[00:49:45] And then older men who can offer wise counsel.
[00:49:51] But in genocide, the killers track down everyone, in particular babies, girls and women, because they represent the future.
[00:50:04] Genocide goes beyond war because the intention lasts forever. It is a final intention.
[00:50:17] And again, just talking about the fact that there was no mercy, no mercy.
[00:50:23] One of the killers says, I do not know of a single who two women who hid away a little tootsie child to save it from the massacre of its family.
[00:50:33] Not even a toddler wrapped in a cloth, or a nursing, unrecognizable to her neighbors because of its tender age.
[00:50:40] Not one woman on the whole hill cheated in the way of a rescue, not even for a short moment of trying.
[00:50:51] And one of the other killers said, I did not hear many women protesting against two-seat-tootsie being raped.
[00:50:59] They knew this work of killing fiercely heated up the men in the marshes. They agreed on this, except, of course, if the men did their dirty sex work near the houses.
[00:51:13] And again, here's one of the killers talking about the fact that they knew these people.
[00:51:21] In war, you kill someone who fights you or promises you harm.
[00:51:27] And killings of this kind, you kill the tootsie woman used to listen to the radio with, or the kind lady who bought medicine plants on your wounds, or your sister.
[00:51:39] Who is married to a tootsie, or even for some unlucky devils your own tootsie wife and your children by general demand?
[00:51:53] You slaughter the woman same as man.
[00:51:58] That is the difference, which changes everything.
[00:52:06] And here's the lone story of someone that tried to stop this.
[00:52:16] It was close to noon on April 11th, so remember to start on April 6th. It's been five days, the first day of the Tootsie hunt in this particular area.
[00:52:26] Is it door?
[00:52:30] Was sitting on a chair in front of his house, resting after a morning of weeding?
[00:52:37] He was a Ho-Too farmer, 65 years old, who had arrived 20 years before.
[00:52:44] Some strapping fellows armed with machetes came singing up the path that ran near his house.
[00:52:51] Is it door called to them in his deep old voice and lecture them in public in front of the neighbors?
[00:52:58] You, young men, are evil doers.
[00:53:01] Turn on your heels and go.
[00:53:04] Your blades point the way towards a dreadful misfortune for us all.
[00:53:09] Do not stir up disputes too dangerous for us farmers.
[00:53:13] Stop tormenting our neighbors and go back to your fields.
[00:53:18] Two killers approached him, laughing.
[00:53:22] And without a word, cut him down with their machetes.
[00:53:27] Among the band was Is it door's son?
[00:53:32] Who, according to witnesses, neither protested nor stopped to bend over the body?
[00:53:41] These young men went on their way.
[00:53:45] Singing.
[00:53:48] Now, speaking of family and I mentioned that some of the Houtous and Tutsis were intermarried
[00:53:55] and had next children and here's sort of the standard operating procedure for that.
[00:54:03] This is coming from one of the killers.
[00:54:06] A Tutsi wife, you could try to save her.
[00:54:11] You offered a cow to the leader and a radio with a like to the organizers, then you handed out small payments of money to those who were prowling around your house.
[00:54:20] But that wasn't even worth trying if you did not want to cooperate.
[00:54:25] Meaning if you didn't want to kill.
[00:54:27] A Tutsi husband, you couldn't burden for.
[00:54:31] He was at the head of the list.
[00:54:33] If his wife began to argue, she was struck right away.
[00:54:37] And the cutter has been, while she watched to discourage her.
[00:54:42] If she kept on, she'd be cut herself with her children.
[00:54:51] One of the other killers said, someone who wanted to save his Tutsi wife was required to show great enthusiasm in the killings.
[00:55:00] Someone who behaved weakly or timidly knew his all over his wife.
[00:55:06] Growsing or idleness doomed her.
[00:55:14] So if you even complained.
[00:55:20] And they talk about, I wonder the other killers talking about, how it was easy to kill the strangers.
[00:55:28] It was much better to kill strangers than acquaintances.
[00:55:31] Because acquaintances had time to stab you with an intense look before receiving the blows.
[00:55:37] A look from a stranger pierced your mind or memory less easily.
[00:55:48] But there were some that obviously seemed to
[00:55:54] enjoy this.
[00:55:59] Some of them used themselves with their machetes on the Tutsis to show off their skill to everyone.
[00:56:05] They would swagger around boasting later in the evening.
[00:56:08] Some slowed down their machetes just for punishment.
[00:56:13] If a Tutsi had worn out a pursuer in a running chase, he could be teased with the point of a machete.
[00:56:20] It would be nasty for him.
[00:56:23] It was like demonstrating the bad example.
[00:56:28] Except that no one was left alive to notice.
[00:56:41] And obviously when you have families, you have children and we have children, you have babies.
[00:56:47] And here's one of the killers talking about the treatment of the babies.
[00:56:55] Saving the babies that was not practical.
[00:56:59] They were whacked against walls and trees where they were cut right away.
[00:57:05] But they were killed more quickly because of their small size and because their suffering was of no use.
[00:57:12] They say that at the church, they burned the children with gasoline.
[00:57:17] Maybe it's true, but that was just in the first day turmoil.
[00:57:22] After that, after word that did not last, in any case, I noticed nothing more.
[00:57:29] The babies could not understand the why of the suffering.
[00:57:34] It was not worth lingering over them.
[00:57:37] And as I mentioned earlier, some of the kids were part of the killing.
[00:57:48] And here's one of the killers talking about that.
[00:57:52] Many children killed.
[00:57:55] Some say they were sick and buy it, scared of it, but were forced to cut by their mama's or papa's.
[00:58:02] Most are completely silent when they hear talk of the killings, even from years ago.
[00:58:06] Keeping silent blocks both judgment and change.
[00:58:11] Now, to add to the evil of all this, to add to the incomprehensible nature of the children.
[00:58:28] It's almost just unbelievable nature, but on top of all this, these people were Christians.
[00:58:52] They were Catholics, they were church-going people.
[00:58:59] That worked transformed almost instantly into mergers.
[00:59:07] And here's one of those, one of the killers talking about that transformation.
[00:59:11] That Saturday, after the playing crash, was the usual choir rehearsal day at the church.
[00:59:18] We sang hymns and good feeling with our two Tsikon Patriots, our voice is still blending in the chorus.
[00:59:26] On Sunday morning, we returned at the appointed hour for mass.
[00:59:31] They did not arrive.
[00:59:33] They had already fled into the bush in fear of reprisals, driving their goats and cows before them.
[00:59:40] That disappointed us greatly, especially on a Sunday.
[00:59:45] Anger hustled us outside the church door.
[00:59:51] We left the Lord and our prayers inside to rush home.
[00:59:57] We changed from our Sunday best into our workday clothes.
[01:00:02] We grabbed clubs and machetes.
[01:00:06] We went straight off to killing.
[01:00:16] Here's another killer.
[01:00:18] I was a deacon.
[01:00:21] The one who made arrangements for the Christian gatherings on the hill.
[01:00:26] In the pre-stapsence, it was I who conducted ordinary services.
[01:00:33] During the killings, I chose not to pray to God.
[01:00:38] I sense that it was not appropriate to involve him in that.
[01:00:46] The white priests took off at the first skirmishes.
[01:00:51] The black priests joined the killers or the killed.
[01:00:55] God kept silent, and the church's stink from abandoned bodies.
[01:01:02] Religion could not find its place in our activity.
[01:01:05] For a little while, we were no longer ordinary Christians.
[01:01:09] We had to forget our duties learned in catacus and class.
[01:01:13] We had first of all to obey our leaders and God only afterward,
[01:01:17] very long afterward, to make confession and penance.
[01:01:22] When the job was done.
[01:01:25] Again, it's just, I didn't know if I could do this book to bring people here to this place.
[01:01:44] And to me, this part that I'm about to go through is about as dark as it gets.
[01:01:53] In the marshes, you heard no children's cries, not even murmurs.
[01:02:00] They waited silently in the mud.
[01:02:03] It was really something.
[01:02:05] When we uncovered a woman with a nurseling, the infant would not even whimper.
[01:02:11] It was miraculous, so to speak.
[01:02:16] Many took sees no longer asked to be spared.
[01:02:21] That was how they greeted death among themselves.
[01:02:28] They had stopped hoping.
[01:02:31] They knew they had no chance for mercy and went off without a single prayer.
[01:02:40] They knew they were abandoned by everything, even by God.
[01:02:44] They no longer spoke to him at all.
[01:02:50] They were leaving and suffering to join him and no longer asked him for anything, not comfort, not blessing, not welcome.
[01:03:00] They no longer prayed even to drive away the fear of an agonizing death.
[01:03:10] It was too astounding.
[01:03:12] It was unnatural, even animals that know nothing of pity, nothing of anguish, nothing of evil.
[01:03:18] They cry out terribly at the moment of the fatal blow.
[01:03:27] That mystery drove us to many discussions.
[01:03:30] We saw explanations for these tutzes who went off into death without breaking their silence.
[01:03:40] That could frighten us sometimes at night because it was said that such calmness must be a bad omen from heaven.
[01:03:47] And here's one of the other killers talking about that silent death from the tutzes.
[01:03:57] When the tutzes were caught, many died without a word.
[01:04:02] And Rwanda people say, die like a lamb in the Bible.
[01:04:07] Of course, Rwanda, there are no sheep, so we have never heard their cry.
[01:04:13] It sometimes touched us painfully that they awaited death in silence.
[01:04:19] Evenings we would ask over and over why no protest from these people who are about to leave.
[01:04:26] Why do not beg for mercy?
[01:04:29] The organizers claim that the tutzes felt guilty for the sin of being tutzy.
[01:04:35] Some kept saying they felt responsible for the misfortunes they had brought upon us.
[01:04:41] Well, I knew that was not true.
[01:04:46] The tutzes were not asking for anything in those fatal moments because they no longer believed in words.
[01:04:55] They had no more faith in crying out.
[01:04:59] Like frightened animals, for example, howling to be heard above the mortal blows.
[01:05:06] And overpowering sorrow was carrying those people away.
[01:05:12] And they felt so abandoned.
[01:05:15] They did not even open their mouths.
[01:05:20] And while whole that was happening, where were we?
[01:05:30] Like I said, I mean, I was in a seal-potune on that ship.
[01:05:35] We were had assets.
[01:05:40] And the Marine Corps did like I said, something small.
[01:05:43] They got authorization, but it was tiny in comparison.
[01:05:52] And it was to hear them, to hear the killers talk about that.
[01:06:02] Here's what one of them said, all the important people turned their backs on our killings.
[01:06:10] The blue helmets, the Belgians, the white directors, the black presidents, the humanitarian people,
[01:06:18] and the international, cameramen, the priests, and the bishops, and finally even God.
[01:06:27] Did he watch what was happening in the marshes?
[01:06:31] Why did he not stab our murderous eyes with his wrath?
[01:06:37] Or show some small sign of disapproval to save more lucky ones?
[01:06:44] And those horrible moments who could hear his silence?
[01:06:51] We were abandoned by all words of review.
[01:06:56] And I'm going to close from the book with this statement from one of the survivors.
[01:07:09] Before I knew a man could kill another man, because it happens all the time.
[01:07:17] Now I know that even the person with whom you've chaired food, or if whom you've slept,
[01:07:24] even he can kill you with no trouble.
[01:07:29] The closest neighbor can turn out to be the most horrible.
[01:07:34] And evil person can kill you with his teeth.
[01:07:39] That is what I've learned since the genocide.
[01:07:42] And my eyes no longer gaze the same on the face of the world.
[01:07:49] So what can we take away from this?
[01:07:54] This utter madness.
[01:07:59] We have to learn something.
[01:08:04] We have to gain something.
[01:08:07] We have to learn something.
[01:08:10] We have to gain something.
[01:08:15] But what?
[01:08:20] What is it?
[01:08:25] And as I tried to answer that question for myself,
[01:08:32] I thought about something that I say,
[01:08:37] and something that I know,
[01:08:41] and this made it even more clear.
[01:08:46] That there is evil in the world.
[01:08:49] There is darkness, and it exists, and it's real.
[01:08:57] And it comes from us.
[01:09:00] It's human.
[01:09:01] It is people.
[01:09:03] We are evil.
[01:09:10] It was not a monster that murdered all those people.
[01:09:14] Those men and those women and those children and those babies.
[01:09:20] It was an animal or some force of nature like a tornado or a hurricane or a tsunami.
[01:09:30] It was not Satan.
[01:09:32] And it was not some mysterious evil spirit.
[01:09:39] It was us.
[01:09:45] And that is downright horrifying.
[01:09:58] But there is a counter that there is a dichotomy to that.
[01:10:06] And that is the fact that while we are the evil in this world,
[01:10:16] we are also the good.
[01:10:19] We are the light that counters this darkness.
[01:10:27] And it sickens my heart to know that we did nothing while this happened.
[01:10:32] And I was there.
[01:10:37] I was off the coast.
[01:10:39] I was on deployment in my.
[01:10:40] Platoon was one quick helicopter flight away.
[01:10:43] And maybe we could have helped.
[01:10:45] Maybe we could have saved even just one person.
[01:10:48] One child or one mom or one baby.
[01:10:51] We could have made some kind of difference.
[01:10:58] We didn't get the order and so we sat while this evil unfolded.
[01:11:11] And I'm ashamed of that.
[01:11:19] Because you see we all have the capacity to bring light into the world
[01:11:27] to counter the darkness.
[01:11:28] All of us do in some way.
[01:11:30] Maybe maybe not directly.
[01:11:32] Maybe not face to face with evil.
[01:11:35] But we can help.
[01:11:41] All of us can help.
[01:11:46] So the message I take away from this abject horror.
[01:11:53] To me.
[01:11:56] It's that I need to focus.
[01:11:59] We need to focus.
[01:12:02] On what good we can do to help people.
[01:12:08] Who can we help?
[01:12:10] Who can we help get better?
[01:12:11] Who can we help improve their station in life?
[01:12:17] What threatened person can we defend?
[01:12:19] What oppressed person can we free?
[01:12:25] What person?
[01:12:28] What fellow human being can we remove from the grip of fear?
[01:12:37] Who can we?
[01:12:38] Who can I?
[01:12:41] Who can we?
[01:12:42] What person out in the world can we take from the darkness and bring into the light?
[01:12:50] And that's the question and the answer that I brought away from this.
[01:13:00] And I know that this was a heavy, heavy book to cover.
[01:13:06] And I like I said I don't just want every time that you turn on this podcast to get crushed
[01:13:12] with something like this.
[01:13:17] And I don't want to do well on it and I've got some good positive books I want to look at next.
[01:13:23] But I don't want to ignore this kind of thing either.
[01:13:29] Because as I've said before, you can't appreciate the light.
[01:13:35] If you don't understand the darkness.
[01:13:43] And as I said, this is truly about as dark as it gets.
[01:13:51] A little bit heavy on echo.
[01:13:54] Yeah, yeah, say so.
[01:13:58] Yeah.
[01:13:59] I gave echo a heads up three or four days ago.
[01:14:03] And I said, hey man, I'm not quite sure about this one.
[01:14:09] This is going to leave a mark.
[01:14:12] And I truly debated whether or not to go forward.
[01:14:19] You know, because there were some people that even about the, even about the forgotten
[01:14:24] Highlander, there were some people that said, hey, you know, that's just too much.
[01:14:28] That's just too much.
[01:14:30] And this is completely beyond that.
[01:14:35] Because there is no rhyme or reason.
[01:14:38] I mean, at least you could look at a Japanese imperial soldier and say, hey, he's a sick person
[01:14:44] That's doing something for this cause.
[01:14:46] There was, there was nothing here.
[01:14:50] Rhyme or reason that was just slaughter.
[01:14:54] You know, kids and that takes it to a whole another level and just how they talking detail about how they deal with
[01:15:01] the kids.
[01:15:08] Yeah.
[01:15:11] And again, to me, the thing I took away from it is this sort of personal responsibility that we all have
[01:15:19] To help out other humans.
[01:15:23] And again, I understand that everyone's not going to be in a military out on the front lines fighting against, you know, tyranny and evil.
[01:15:30] I understand that.
[01:15:31] But what can you do to help out?
[01:15:33] And I've said this since day one, that's one of the things I talked about on the spot gas is, you know,
[01:15:37] I don't feel like I'm really good at helping, you know, people with causes and stuff like that.
[01:15:42] I just don't feel it.
[01:15:43] I don't feel like it's something I'm very good at.
[01:15:46] But this makes you rethink and say, what, you know, what can you do to help?
[01:15:51] Because there's people that are suffering.
[01:15:52] I mean, obviously right now, we've got, you know, we got ISIS that are doing the same activities.
[01:15:59] If not worse, they just, they just crucified a priest.
[01:16:03] That was just in the news.
[01:16:05] So the evil is still there.
[01:16:10] And it has happening before our own eyes.
[01:16:16] And it makes me sick that we, with the ability to do something about it, we sit on the sidelines.
[01:16:28] So hopefully we start to move in a direction where we take a leadership role in the world and help lead the world towards the light,
[01:16:44] and away from the darkness.
[01:16:54] And with that thought, let's move away from this darkness right now.
[01:17:04] Let's talk about something else.
[01:17:07] Not to forget about this, but we do have to recognize that we got to live our lives and people got to live their lives.
[01:17:16] And again, don't deny that this stuff is out there.
[01:17:21] Don't forget that this stuff is out there.
[01:17:23] Relish your situation.
[01:17:25] If you have a MP3 player of some kind and you're listening to this podcast, be thankful.
[01:17:33] Be thankful that you're in that situation.
[01:17:37] And look down below you into the darkness, and if you get the chance, put out your hand and see if there's someone down there that you can help pull up.
[01:17:51] So out of that heaviness and out of that darkness, let's head into a little bit of light with the community.
[01:18:01] Questions?
[01:18:03] Questions from the troopers out there?
[01:18:05] Got questions for us.
[01:18:07] And before we talk about the, before we go to questions from the inner webs, what can we do from the inner webs?
[01:18:17] Supporting the podcast style.
[01:18:19] Yeah, what depends on your mission, but in the event of you wanting to support this podcast in any capacity.
[01:18:27] Well, a bunch of things you can do.
[01:18:31] Do your Amazon shopping.
[01:18:33] Like if you want to get that book.
[01:18:35] You want to buy this book right here, which you should.
[01:18:37] Because it's an eye opener.
[01:18:39] I don't know though.
[01:18:41] I don't know.
[01:18:41] I might not be for everybody.
[01:18:43] I'm telling you, if you're a human, you should know about what the world is like.
[01:18:47] I did get machete sees.
[01:18:49] Yeah.
[01:18:50] Right there.
[01:18:51] If you want to get that.
[01:18:52] For example, through Amazon, just click through the link that is on jocopotcast.com or jocopotcast.com or jocopotcast.
[01:19:00] Or jocostor.
[01:19:01] By the way, if you want to buy anything from Amazon and you click through that link, little some goes to the podcast.
[01:19:06] Right.
[01:19:07] So you're kind of passively supporting.
[01:19:10] Also, you know what?
[01:19:12] You know what?
[01:19:13] I just realized earlier today.
[01:19:15] We have shirts.
[01:19:18] Jocopotcast shirts.
[01:19:20] There are a couple of designs.
[01:19:22] I've never mentioned it.
[01:19:24] I posted a picture on Twitter.
[01:19:26] Before a couple pictures on Twitter, that's it.
[01:19:28] I've never mentioned it.
[01:19:29] So that's another way to support the podcast.
[01:19:32] Yeah, get yourself a shirt.
[01:19:33] Get yourself a shirt.
[01:19:34] But just look at the shirts.
[01:19:36] They're at jocostor.com.
[01:19:38] Look at them.
[01:19:39] If you like it.
[01:19:40] If you like one of them or both the designs or whatever, get a shirt.
[01:19:44] Sure.
[01:19:45] You don't like them.
[01:19:46] Don't get the shirt.
[01:19:47] That's that simple enough.
[01:19:48] Yep.
[01:19:49] There it is.
[01:19:50] And then of course on it is a supporter of this podcast.
[01:19:57] Oh, and in it.com slash jockel and get 10% off anything on it is where we get out
[01:20:06] of a brain.
[01:20:08] To fuel this podcast.
[01:20:10] And we're jockel.
[01:20:11] I'm on the bill.
[01:20:12] Yeah, I want you all the stuff.
[01:20:15] Cool stuff.
[01:20:16] And quality legitimate stuff.
[01:20:18] I think that's a big deal.
[01:20:19] Because a lot of times like you can take protein supplements or something like that.
[01:20:23] And it won't work but you won't really even know.
[01:20:25] You want to get the clean stuff.
[01:20:26] Yeah, you want to get the good stuff.
[01:20:28] And I've mentioned this before.
[01:20:30] You can get caught up on that website reading all the interesting stuff.
[01:20:33] How they get this and how they get these ingredients.
[01:20:36] All that stuff, which actually isn't a bad thing because you know.
[01:20:39] Now, but nonetheless, it's all right there.
[01:20:42] You can read about all the supplements that you're thinking about getting.
[01:20:46] I recommend Shroom Tech sport as always.
[01:20:50] If you're going to do hard stuff that's like extended in a hard like you're just your crossfit situation or that kind of stuff.
[01:20:58] I know it's always called a crossfit situation.
[01:21:00] Yep.
[01:21:01] As if it's all that's going to occur like crying.
[01:21:03] I appreciate that.
[01:21:05] Oh, and in IT dot com slash jockel 10% off.
[01:21:10] Free shipping except for the exercise, the heavy exercise stuff.
[01:21:14] Yeah, there it is.
[01:21:16] Awesome.
[01:21:17] Let's get some questions going.
[01:21:19] Okay, first question.
[01:21:21] Jockel, can you tell us your views on Brazilian jujitsu competing mindset and training leading into a competition?
[01:21:30] Well, competing is great.
[01:21:33] The competing makes you better, competing points out your weaknesses, competing lets you roll against people that you've never trained with before that are going to go 1,000% against you.
[01:21:42] Every move matters in competition.
[01:21:44] Yes, they bring it.
[01:21:47] I competed a ton back in the early days.
[01:21:52] You know, you know, really, I'll just talk about Dean because Dean and I were for teammates back then and still are, but we competed all the time.
[01:22:00] And we competed in the old school tournaments, the grappling games.
[01:22:05] They used to have those, the the pan American submission grappling.
[01:22:10] It was sort of like a some offshoot or another competing sort of pan Am's type situation.
[01:22:16] My, there was the, the Joe Mori era tournaments back in the day.
[01:22:21] Those were pretty cool.
[01:22:23] And the copa pacific guy, I think I did a few of those back in the day.
[01:22:28] Well, my favorite was doing the neutral grounds tournaments because those were like held up an LA up in the hood somewhere and we'd roll in and be kind of underground.
[01:22:39] And those were really cool competitions.
[01:22:41] But competed a ton back in the day once, honestly once September 11th happened, that was now my focus more than anything else.
[01:22:49] And I needed to be ready.
[01:22:50] I needed to be ready.
[01:22:51] I couldn't be having a blown out knee.
[01:22:53] I couldn't be having her shoulder.
[01:22:54] So, and furthermore, I had like less time to focus and have real like let's call it a training camp to be ready to compete at a high level.
[01:23:03] And I mean, I was at a high level, you know, I mean, I was, I was, you know, a brown belt or a black belt at the time.
[01:23:10] And so it wasn't like you could just show up a weekend warrior and jump in the jump on the mat with, you know, some, some other black belt.
[01:23:17] And it was going to go easy for you wasn't going to happen.
[01:23:20] So, I, you know, the bottom line is I needed to be 100% for the job. But competing is awesome.
[01:23:25] It's intense.
[01:23:26] No matter what you do in training, you cannot get a person is fired up as they are going to be in competition.
[01:23:33] It's not going to happen.
[01:23:34] So it's really good to compete.
[01:23:38] So you find out what you're waiting for.
[01:23:40] You find out what it feels like when someone's going psycho on you because they're going to be going psycho.
[01:23:44] And to prepare for them, you know, you got to, you got to, my favorite thing to do prepares, you know, you get to go.
[01:23:49] You get to do prepares, you know, you get guys where they're going.
[01:23:51] Got fresh people coming on you because everybody can be destroyed.
[01:23:57] When fatigue rolls in and starts getting playing a role in the situation, it's been, it's bad.
[01:24:02] So when you bring in a fresh person, you know, after every two minutes, three minutes, four minutes, one minute, six minutes.
[01:24:09] But one person is is fighting the whole time and other people are getting rested and coming in.
[01:24:15] That's very challenging. It makes you rely on your technique. It pushes you beyond your normal limits and it's an awesome way to do it.
[01:24:21] So that being said, you also can't just do that all the time because you have to train your explosiveness as well.
[01:24:26] And you need to be ready to do, you know, if you're doing a seven minute fight, you need to be able to go hard for seven minutes and not save everything for a 38 minute fight,
[01:24:34] which is what you sometimes end up doing in the gym.
[01:24:36] I, you got all the time that gym I'm doing, you know, six rounds, seven rounds, you know, nine rounds, whatever the case may be.
[01:24:42] And you're also doing just one round, but it's one round that's 23 minutes long.
[01:24:47] Yeah, that happens too. So I like to do a little bit of all those things.
[01:24:52] And yeah, compete, get yourself better.
[01:24:55] And it'll, it'll definitely make you a better GGG player, which will make you a better person.
[01:25:01] You see that pressure.
[01:25:02] You know, another tactic, which is, which is kind of good.
[01:25:06] And Jeff will do this sometimes. He'll do like a three minute round.
[01:25:10] Yeah, yeah, yeah. So it's strange because when you know there's only three minutes, you kind of get that illusion that I'm just going to go all out and see how many if I can get this guy, I only have three minutes to get them.
[01:25:20] And so you're going hard. So your sense of urgency is more than if you have an eight minute round.
[01:25:25] Yeah. So you're, but here's, here's the little chat and I don't know if Jeff did this on purpose, but it's kind of this little trick where you're going hard, but he only gives us 30 seconds in between.
[01:25:35] So it doesn't matter, but it's a three minute round. You're going like six rounds. So you're like, and so that'll test your conditioning, but it'll test you like your quickness and, not quickness like quick, but your urgency.
[01:25:47] Yeah. You know, you're not going to be just chilling in some guys guard or, you know, because because it's, you can possible chill in the garden.
[01:25:53] You can. Yeah. In fact, that's actually a good strategy in some cases, you know, when you got to recover or something like this.
[01:26:00] Anyway, that's, that's, that's interesting one that I came to realize when Jeff put it on us one day. Jeff, you love it. Jeff, love it. Okay. Next question. Yeah. Let's do it.
[01:26:10] Okay. I hurt myself significantly throwing around house kick recently abdominal hernia at the site of an old appendix surgery.
[01:26:21] I trained to MMA five days a week, sometimes more multiple times a day for two years until last week when he got that injury.
[01:26:30] But now I can hardly see the chair without pain and surgery is two months out and who knows how long recovery recovery will be before I can train again.
[01:26:39] What I'm asking is, what should we as martial artists in men do in times of forced diet is an injury? What do we do when there's a quiet but we miss the storm?
[01:26:53] Well, one thing with injuries, injuries are going to come and you cut wood, you get saw dust, you train, you're going to get injured. That's what's going to happen.
[01:27:04] I mean, it's just a, that's just, just the law, this is a law of the land. The number one thing to remember is, and this is something that's really hard when you're super active and you're super fired up and you're training all the time.
[01:27:16] When you get injured and you get sideline, you feel like it's never going to go away. You feel like it's not healing and you're just like, oh man, this is I'm doomed.
[01:27:25] So the injury is going to go away. Now obviously for some guys, for some actual soldiers or warriors that have been wounded in a permanent way, that's that's different.
[01:27:37] And those guys, what they do is they learn to adapt. You know, they learn how are they going to get through this, how are they going to adapt their life, how are they going to roll with one leg, how are they going to do pull ups with one hand.
[01:27:50] Jeff Rial, you know Jeff Rial, we are doing burpee pull ups the other day. I was putting the MMA classes through it. If you don't know Jeff Rial, awesome guy, awesome fighter, awesome to just two players. He's born without one hand.
[01:28:02] I had the guys doing burpee pull ups and a black belt, by the way. Yeah, black belt. And he had, he has like a little hooky can put on there to do pull ups.
[01:28:11] And I guess the thing was falling off and so he just threw that thing to the ground and he was just hooking his his forearm over and then the other hand was grabbing, he's doing pull ups.
[01:28:21] I mean, if Jeff Rial can just jump do, we did six rounds worth of burpee pull ups or five rounds worth of burpee pull ups and he crushed it.
[01:28:34] No one has any excuse. So guys that they get some kind of a permanent injury that he wounded something like that happens. Okay, you got to adapt to it. You got to figure out what you can do.
[01:28:43] But the injuries, the basic injuries, the daily injuries, the temporary injuries that is normal from training.
[01:28:53] That's, you're going to get him. And so, of course, oh, you got an injury. Good.
[01:29:00] Right. It's a little injury. Be thankful. It's not something worse. You know, I've had, you know, a blown out ankle. I've had a torn MCL and you know, what do you do? What do you say when you tear your ACL or your MCL? You say, okay, awesome.
[01:29:14] It's not my ACL. It's not my Maniscus. You know, the, the MCL will hit itself. What do you say if it's your, if it is your ACL? Okay, great. That's one that can be revered with surgery.
[01:29:24] So, none of these problems are permanent, right? So be thankful. You don't have a permanent injury. And even though it seems like it's going to take forever.
[01:29:34] Like, homeboy here, who's got two months before he even gets surgery and then how long is it going to take? It seems like it's going to take forever. I had neck surgery, right?
[01:29:42] That's a blip on the radar and even remember how long it took. It was a long time. I mean, it took months to heal from that. I don't remember that.
[01:29:49] When I do that at that time, I did all the lectures. I figured out the stuff I watched YouTube videos. I figured out other moves. You know, that's what I did.
[01:29:55] So, I guess YouTube wasn't even around. I was watching DVDs.
[01:30:01] Yeah, VHS tapes. So, what do you do? Number one, stack of, right? You know, move. Do, if you, if you can't move your body all work your forearm strength, right?
[01:30:16] Squeeze a tennis ball. One of my buddies blew out his knee. What is it? The triple fret? He did ACL, PCL, Maniscus, boom. He'll hook, right? Didn't tap.
[01:30:28] He got to tap to the heel hook, people. Got to tap to it. Got caught in the heel hook. Didn't tap.
[01:30:33] He blew his boot all part. He had to get him all reconstructed. So, we had a dummy. Remember the big dummy we have at the gym? We had a big one. It was 120 pounds.
[01:30:45] And he would lay on the ground. His knee is in a full, as leg is in a full straight brace won't bend at all. He would lay on the ground and lay next to this dummy.
[01:30:53] And he just pull it from one side of himself, put it on the ground to the other side himself. Pull it back to the other side. Back to the other side.
[01:30:59] So, he's getting this motion of sort of turning on the ground, this massive core strength. And when he finally recovered, it was powerful.
[01:31:09] And you know what he would turn underneath you, he said, got some strength there. So, you got to figure out what you can do. You know, if you can't roll, box.
[01:31:19] If you can't lift, stretch and get that flexibility working in some area that you're not flexible, whatever you're going to do.
[01:31:29] Stay engaged, stay active, because I think I'm definitely a believer in the active rest. You know what I mean?
[01:31:35] When you just go, okay, I'm injured. So, I'm just going to sit on the couch and watch TV. No wrong answer. Run away from that TV.
[01:31:42] You got to keep moving, because that keeps your blood flowing and it keeps getting, it gets more blood, more circulation, more healing, gives this area that's injured. So do that.
[01:31:51] And if you, but you know, still you're still going to have more time in your day, right? So what are you going to do? I'll tell you what you're going to do.
[01:31:58] Get a guitar. Right? Learn to play guitar. Right a book, build a website, take pictures, learn a language, read more books, expand your brain.
[01:32:09] Right? Expand your mind when your body needs a little recovery when your body's injured, make yourself smarter, make yourself better, free your mind.
[01:32:19] And so the bottom line, the question was, what does a man do when there's quiet?
[01:32:27] And I'll tell you what a man does when there's quiet. He takes advantage of it.
[01:32:32] Right. So take advantage of it. Get smarter, get better, you know, their ways. And when the body comes back, you, you will be better.
[01:32:40] Yeah, that's a good way to, to put it, like, take advantage of it, like actively, because a lot of times like, where the problem comes about.
[01:32:48] I know this because I told my boss that man, that's right. I was there, I was watching you out. Yeah, yeah, I think he, yeah, I was watching you out.
[01:32:54] I have a picture of you. Yeah, that's.
[01:32:57] Yeah, I was messed up.
[01:32:58] I think you sent me a SMRME text too.
[01:32:59] That was something like that.
[01:33:01] No, that was for something else, but same day though, nonetheless.
[01:33:05] What were the problem comes when you miss the story, you miss the action, is you're
[01:33:10] harping on it.
[01:33:11] It's almost like you have this hope, like, oh, it'll be soon or maybe the doctor said nine
[01:33:16] months, but maybe I could do it in four kind of thing.
[01:33:19] You know, just that mindset where you kind of, in a way, got to admit to yourself, okay,
[01:33:24] I'm out right now.
[01:33:26] I can't roll right now.
[01:33:28] I can't train MMA two times a day, five days a week.
[01:33:31] I cannot do that.
[01:33:32] You gotta admit that.
[01:33:33] So what did you do?
[01:33:34] Did you work on your video editing skills?
[01:33:36] Turn that time?
[01:33:37] Oh man, I think that was before.
[01:33:39] So what'd you do?
[01:33:40] I forget.
[01:33:41] I don't know.
[01:33:42] But I'll tell you.
[01:33:43] You did not take it.
[01:33:44] I'll tell you what I did it.
[01:33:45] Do is harp on it.
[01:33:46] Yeah.
[01:33:47] You moved on.
[01:33:48] You figured out what else you can do.
[01:33:49] Yeah, exactly.
[01:33:50] I was always into working out and stuff.
[01:33:52] So I would do other stuff, like, legs and stuff.
[01:33:54] Work your left arm.
[01:33:55] All right, yeah.
[01:33:56] Yeah.
[01:33:57] Actually, my left arm is still bigger, a little bit.
[01:33:59] Nonetheless, I think that's a good little jump start.
[01:34:03] It's don't harp on it.
[01:34:04] You gotta admit to yourself that you're out.
[01:34:06] You're injured right now.
[01:34:08] And then how you said, take advantage of it.
[01:34:10] Dang, that's good.
[01:34:11] I wish I would have known that actively take advantage, because there's so much advantage
[01:34:13] to be taken.
[01:34:14] Yeah.
[01:34:15] There's all kinds of time you have.
[01:34:16] Yeah, man.
[01:34:17] I think about all the time that I spend in the gym and on the mats, I mean, that's
[01:34:20] a bunch of big, shuck-and-times.
[01:34:22] That's what we do now.
[01:34:23] I'm going to work with reading, for example, look at that back into reading.
[01:34:27] And look at it this way.
[01:34:30] Where as far as books go, books that exist, any information in the whole, whether you're
[01:34:35] interested in it, not interested in whether you can understand it or not, all the information
[01:34:40] of the world is accessible right now.
[01:34:43] It's more than any time ever.
[01:34:47] All different angles, different aspects of everything.
[01:34:50] This is just out there.
[01:34:51] And you have more time now.
[01:34:53] Take advantage of that.
[01:34:55] Actively.
[01:34:56] Yeah, actively.
[01:34:57] All right.
[01:34:58] Next question.
[01:34:59] My question is this, as a military man, what do you do if you cannot reconcile the orders
[01:35:06] that you're asked to do?
[01:35:08] I know that in your book you talk about belief, the mission, and how you must ask questions
[01:35:13] until you believe.
[01:35:15] What happens if after all the questions and all the explanations you don't agree or believe?
[01:35:21] One of the politics asks of you something you're not congruent with.
[01:35:27] How do you, as a military man, respond to your incongruency with the mission?
[01:35:36] So this is a great question.
[01:35:40] And it's kind of ties in with what we just read with the book review of machetecies and
[01:35:47] how people were just doing.
[01:35:53] It's some of them didn't believe in what they're doing.
[01:35:55] They did it anyways.
[01:35:56] Wrong answer.
[01:35:57] And it resulted in the death of the one guy you talk about.
[01:36:00] That's in the book.
[01:36:01] But so first of all, as you stated in the question itself, if you don't agree with some
[01:36:08] mission that you've been given, then you have to ask the question why.
[01:36:13] In the book, extreme ownership, we talk about that.
[01:36:16] The primary example is we talk about it working with Iraqi soldiers and how that's very
[01:36:21] challenging and very difficult and very dangerous.
[01:36:24] And the story that we tell on the book is that I said to myself, okay, why are they having
[01:36:27] this work with these Iraqi soldiers?
[01:36:29] My guys are going to be at risk, et cetera, et cetera.
[01:36:32] And eventually I realized why we needed to do this was because if we didn't get the Iraqi
[01:36:37] soldiers to a point where they could handle the security in Iraq, then who was going to
[01:36:41] do it and the answer was us.
[01:36:42] So I understood why.
[01:36:44] Now I actually even have to ask anybody why.
[01:36:47] I figured that out.
[01:36:48] I asked myself why.
[01:36:49] And so I was able to come to it, come to that conclusion.
[01:36:53] But when you are part of something, whether it's in business or it's in war, the goal, the
[01:37:02] ultimate goal, it has to be aligned.
[01:37:07] And so for example, where in Iraq we're supposed to use Iraqi soldiers, okay, do you think
[01:37:13] that the generals wanted our men to be killed because the higher risk?
[01:37:18] No, they wanted to win the war, they wanted to keep our guys safe.
[01:37:21] So that's what I wanted to.
[01:37:23] We want to win the war, we want to keep our guys safe.
[01:37:24] So that's aligned.
[01:37:25] So anything that they're telling me to do, it must be at some point in the distance
[01:37:31] aligned with the same goal that I have.
[01:37:34] And it's the same thing with a business.
[01:37:35] Do you think a boss of a business doesn't want to be profitable?
[01:37:38] Or doesn't want to be ethical?
[01:37:39] No, somewhere in the future they want to be profitable.
[01:37:42] They want to be ethical.
[01:37:43] And somewhere your mission is going to align with that.
[01:37:48] If you don't, if those don't align at some point, then you got a real serious issue on your
[01:37:55] hands, right?
[01:37:56] Because maybe you're being told to do something that you just don't believe in.
[01:38:01] And you asked, you know, like I said, you've got to ask those questions all the way up.
[01:38:06] And if you do ask those questions all the way up, and you still find, okay, I don't believe
[01:38:11] in this mission.
[01:38:15] Now you got to weigh out the consequences.
[01:38:19] Because for instance, if there's an order that comes, and for whatever reason you don't
[01:38:25] believe in it, and you've asked the questions, and you still don't believe that it's
[01:38:28] the right thing to do.
[01:38:29] What if it's something that's like pretty inconsistency, right?
[01:38:33] Something that's no big deal.
[01:38:35] And you say no to it.
[01:38:38] Like I'm not going to do this.
[01:38:39] You decide to make your stand.
[01:38:40] Okay.
[01:38:41] Well, now you're, first of all, you're not supporting the chain of command anymore.
[01:38:48] And if you're not supporting your chain of command anymore, how can you support the guys
[01:38:51] that work for you?
[01:38:54] Because now now you might get removed.
[01:38:58] And if you get removed from the situation, now who's going to go execute it?
[01:39:03] Who's going to go do this thing that you thought was wrong?
[01:39:06] Now you're going to give it to somebody that might execute it in a harsh way, in a worse
[01:39:10] way, or you lose control of it.
[01:39:12] You've lost your influence.
[01:39:14] You've used up some of your political capital.
[01:39:16] You've impaired your reputation by saying no, I'm not going to do that.
[01:39:20] Because I don't believe in it.
[01:39:21] What was it?
[01:39:23] And by saying no, what did you accomplish?
[01:39:28] Because now you have no control over anymore.
[01:39:31] You're, you can't change it.
[01:39:33] You can't affect it anymore.
[01:39:35] So let me ask you this.
[01:39:36] This is an example.
[01:39:37] This will make it very clear what I'm trying to say.
[01:39:39] Because I don't think I'm being very clear right now.
[01:39:41] If you're playing a game, right?
[01:39:42] You're playing a football game or a basketball game, and the ref makes a bad call.
[01:39:47] Okay.
[01:39:48] So you say the ref made a bad call, I don't agree with this call.
[01:39:53] I quit and walkin off the court.
[01:39:56] Now does that make sense?
[01:40:00] I mean, how bad of a call was it?
[01:40:02] How did it affect the game?
[01:40:04] And furthermore, once you walk off the court, what good are you?
[01:40:07] Can you do better?
[01:40:09] Can you use trying, bring back the score?
[01:40:11] Can you try and show the ref that yes, you are playing fair?
[01:40:14] Look, I'm a good guy.
[01:40:15] I'm keeping my head.
[01:40:16] I'm keeping my cool.
[01:40:17] Oh, you've thrown that all the way.
[01:40:19] You've thrown that all the way.
[01:40:21] And so what good is that?
[01:40:23] It's the same thing.
[01:40:24] It's not just the ref because that's sort of outside your chain of command, but what
[01:40:26] if you're on coach, what if your coach pulls you out of a game?
[01:40:30] Or the coach calls a play to you for you to run a play that you didn't believe in.
[01:40:34] So you're going to say, you know what?
[01:40:35] I don't believe in that play.
[01:40:36] I'm walking off the field.
[01:40:38] That's an exact correlation to this idea, right?
[01:40:41] This military order comes down that I don't believe in.
[01:40:43] Oh, I don't believe in it.
[01:40:44] So now I'm going to walk away.
[01:40:47] So that is problematic because you've given up, you've surrendered your right to affect
[01:40:57] the situation.
[01:41:00] And that's not good.
[01:41:03] And in the military, there's all kinds of policy nuances that we might not believe
[01:41:08] in 100%.
[01:41:09] No things.
[01:41:10] There might be little things that you go, you know what I have.
[01:41:12] I don't see.
[01:41:13] I don't think that's the best way to do it.
[01:41:14] I think there's a better way to do it.
[01:41:16] But if you walk away from it, now you can no longer affect it.
[01:41:20] And that is bad.
[01:41:21] So generally speaking, for most of these things, I don't, I don't live in the military all
[01:41:29] the time.
[01:41:30] Don't live in all the time.
[01:41:31] And you know what?
[01:41:32] Generally speaking, you stay in the game so that you can still have an effect and can
[01:41:36] still have influence.
[01:41:38] Now that being said, there can be orders.
[01:41:45] That are unlawful or unethical.
[01:41:51] That can happen.
[01:41:52] Right?
[01:41:53] You are in a bad situation, you're working for a bad commander, you're working for someone
[01:41:55] that's unethical or one of the case may be.
[01:42:00] Maybe their orders or plans that are tactically un-sound to the point that you're afraid
[01:42:05] people are going to die.
[01:42:09] And in those situations, you know, as we were wrong back to Napoleon's maximum, again,
[01:42:13] if you knew execute something that you knew was wrong, you're culpable.
[01:42:17] So that is the time when you stand up and say, you know what?
[01:42:19] I'm not doing this.
[01:42:20] You want to send me to Levinworth, you want to demo me, demo me, do it.
[01:42:24] But I do not believe in this and here's why.
[01:42:26] So that is a time where you may have to say, after you weigh out the situation, how bad
[01:42:33] is it something that's unethical, unconstitutional?
[01:42:38] And you think you're going to have a bigger impact by protesting it, by possibly jeopardizing
[01:42:45] your career or possibly going to Levinworth if you're in the military, getting court martial.
[01:42:51] All those things could happen.
[01:42:52] If you think that it's so important, and that you will have a better effect on it by making
[01:42:58] this protest.
[01:42:59] Because that's what you're doing.
[01:43:00] You're now making a protest, then okay, maybe that makes sense.
[01:43:05] So you got like the Mayline massacre in Vietnam where horrible situation happens.
[01:43:10] And if you were a soldier that was there and said, you know what, I'm not doing this.
[01:43:14] Stop.
[01:43:15] And maybe you do risk getting court martial.
[01:43:17] Maybe you risk getting killed.
[01:43:20] But that's a situation where maybe you do it or maybe it's some mistreatment of civilians
[01:43:25] or something.
[01:43:26] But again, even with mistreatment of civilians, the US military is not going to order
[01:43:31] the mistreatment of civilians.
[01:43:32] It's not going to happen.
[01:43:34] So if it is happening, it's coming from a rogue commander that you're going to be able
[01:43:39] to destroy when you bring this situation to the authorities or to the higher chain of
[01:43:45] command.
[01:43:48] So again, you know, if you're getting wrapped up in some small nuanced thing, it
[01:43:54] it, it mentions the political, like if you're not politically congruent with, I don't
[01:43:59] know if you meant that split.
[01:44:00] Yeah.
[01:44:01] And again, when you're in the military, you're not there to worry about the politics of
[01:44:08] it.
[01:44:09] You know, you're there to carry out the politics.
[01:44:12] You're there to carry out the policy.
[01:44:14] Now if there's a, again, if the policy is a grigious, right?
[01:44:18] If it's a grigious and you think you would do better to make a protest and end up in jail
[01:44:26] and, you know, be on CNN and Fox News and say, hey, this is why I'm in jail because I
[01:44:31] didn't agree with what we're doing.
[01:44:33] If it's something that the rest of the nation is going to look at and say, yeah, this
[01:44:35] guy was right.
[01:44:36] Of course.
[01:44:38] But if you're doing it because it's something that is in comparison to that is something
[01:44:45] relatively small, then you're probably, you're probably doing worse to help the situation.
[01:44:52] You're probably doing less good by walking away, getting off the field and letting the
[01:44:59] situation transpire without your presence.
[01:45:02] I want to be there.
[01:45:04] You know, I want to be there.
[01:45:05] If my guys were getting tasked with a mission that I thought was a little bit sketchy,
[01:45:09] I want to be there.
[01:45:11] I want to be there.
[01:45:13] Not hey, I protest, so I'm not going to go.
[01:45:16] Not a good call.
[01:45:18] So yeah.
[01:45:20] And again, I'm not saying that you don't stand by your principles, but I'm saying
[01:45:25] is, especially for this guy that's in the military, your principles should be for the
[01:45:29] most part in line.
[01:45:31] This is America.
[01:45:32] And if you're, if you're being told to do something, that's, that's un-American, then
[01:45:39] yeah, stand by your principles.
[01:45:41] But most, if it's something that's small and it's something that you just might not agree
[01:45:44] with a hundred percent, that doesn't mean you're an un-principled person.
[01:45:48] It means that you are winning, losing the battle, but you're going to win the war.
[01:45:54] Yeah.
[01:45:55] Yeah, I like that way.
[01:45:56] Way it out.
[01:45:57] Yeah.
[01:45:58] Everybody's not playing like that.
[01:45:59] About this, me, I'm jumping on that side of things.
[01:46:02] Next question.
[01:46:06] Choco and echo, what supplements do you guys take besides, krill oil and alpha brain?
[01:46:16] And do you take the alpha brain instant or capsules?
[01:46:23] I take alpha brain instant, it's tasty treat.
[01:46:25] It's kind of a little sweet.
[01:46:26] It's got a little sweetness to it, because it's got stevey in it, so it tastes good.
[01:46:30] If you have a little bit of a sweet tooth and you want something sweet, you've been eating
[01:46:33] it like steak for the past seven days.
[01:46:36] No, it tastes good.
[01:46:38] I also take glucose, I mean, as I've mentioned before, I do get it from on it.
[01:46:43] It's a product called strong bone, that's what I take and I'll tell you.
[01:46:49] I, getting ready for the podcast, right?
[01:46:53] Doing prep work, like three days in a row, I was deep in prep work.
[01:46:59] And I was pounded in some alpha brain.
[01:47:01] And each day, yeah, I was like drinking the full alpha brains and maybe like two of them.
[01:47:09] And I had, I did a two days in a row.
[01:47:13] And when I went into train, and I train with Dean Dean's getting ready for something
[01:47:17] right now, and I was rolling really good with Dean.
[01:47:23] Each day I was, you know, I was giving well.
[01:47:26] He has a little dude.
[01:47:27] He was doing well.
[01:47:28] And Dean was, Dean was not a happy camper.
[01:47:33] And then the third day was like I was pretty much done, would wrap up the prep.
[01:47:37] And I didn't have any alpha brain and I had a rough day.
[01:47:40] And I, I said to myself maybe as little as up there.
[01:47:43] Codation.
[01:47:44] Correlation.
[01:47:45] I don't know.
[01:47:46] Maybe.
[01:47:47] But yeah.
[01:47:48] And I suppose you want to throw out some shrimp tech.
[01:47:51] Yeah, shrimp tech.
[01:47:52] Of course, like I've always said.
[01:47:55] Again, even before this, I took shrimp tech.
[01:47:58] That's a good one.
[01:47:59] The prep work out.
[01:48:01] Sometimes, you know, well, actually all the time, if you, if you really want to feel like
[01:48:07] working out, you know, like, I feel like working out right now.
[01:48:10] You don't always feel like that.
[01:48:11] If you want to guarantee you feel like that, take some pre workout with the alpha
[01:48:14] brain instant.
[01:48:15] Makes them together.
[01:48:16] Boom.
[01:48:17] Boom.
[01:48:18] Yeah.
[01:48:19] Um, as far as the alpha brain instant versus the capsules.
[01:48:23] And my brother has verified this.
[01:48:27] I've never taken, I've taken the capsules, but not before.
[01:48:30] I hear that if you take the capsules before you go to sleep.
[01:48:33] Because I don't think there's like any kind of caffeine or nothing in alpha.
[01:48:36] There's not.
[01:48:37] So, taking before you go to sleep, you get, um,
[01:48:40] loose, loose.
[01:48:41] It dreams.
[01:48:42] Yeah.
[01:48:43] I've heard that from everybody.
[01:48:44] Everybody who takes alpha brain, they say that, it affects the dream.
[01:48:49] I don't want my dreams to be any more real than they are actually.
[01:48:52] But do you know that they are dreaming when you, when you, when you, sometimes?
[01:48:55] Some dreams.
[01:48:56] Sometimes.
[01:48:57] Yeah.
[01:48:58] Apparently like this.
[01:48:59] But a lot of times my dreams are blank, but I wake up and, you know, complete
[01:49:01] full athletic sweat, drenched bed.
[01:49:03] That's how I wake up.
[01:49:04] It's not fun.
[01:49:06] Yeah.
[01:49:07] Um, putting regards to like protein powder and nothing like this.
[01:49:11] Uh, steak.
[01:49:12] Yes.
[01:49:13] I said it before and I'll say it again.
[01:49:16] Yeah.
[01:49:17] I think that's a big deal.
[01:49:18] Like a lot of people, you know how people, some people really into supplements.
[01:49:21] Like to be, yeah, the new, this is the new protein powder because it comes with this
[01:49:24] delivery system and all this stuff.
[01:49:26] Um, dual action protein.
[01:49:27] Yeah, you know, all this stuff and it does, um, like if you eat food, that, that, this
[01:49:35] normal food, that is a good delivery system.
[01:49:37] It does.
[01:49:38] So you, that, especially when it's in the form of a rib eye stuff, I'm going to deliver
[01:49:42] a system right there.
[01:49:43] Yeah.
[01:49:44] Yeah, I would imagine.
[01:49:45] So, yeah, that's it.
[01:49:47] Not that heavy into the supplements, um, maybe a multi-vitamin from time to time.
[01:49:53] Right?
[01:49:54] I don't really take a multi-vitamin anymore.
[01:49:56] Yeah.
[01:49:57] Yeah, I did for a while.
[01:49:58] I don't need a war.
[01:50:00] Yeah.
[01:50:01] Um, cruel oil.
[01:50:03] I'll bring it.
[01:50:04] Yeah.
[01:50:05] That's it.
[01:50:06] Next question, I'm a Kentucky trooper.
[01:50:11] And I'm an instructor at our academy, the police academy.
[01:50:15] We lost three guys last year.
[01:50:16] Could you discuss how to, how to deal with training these guys as hard as you can and they
[01:50:21] still lose their lives while working.
[01:50:23] So it's, it's, it's dealing with people and letting them know that, um, you know, that
[01:50:30] this goes down.
[01:50:32] Um, how do you deal with that?
[01:50:34] Well, first of all, um, I get a lot of feedback from police officers out there in the
[01:50:40] world.
[01:50:41] And if I would say one thing to them to lead this office, thank you for what you do
[01:50:46] guys have a dangerous job.
[01:50:49] It's intense.
[01:50:50] It's thankless most of the time.
[01:50:52] And you're dealing with the, with the drugs of society all day long.
[01:50:58] And then you have to balance that with dealing with normal civilians and citizens.
[01:51:02] So, uh, thank you for what you guys do.
[01:51:07] And also, I'll throw on top of that firefighters, you know, paramedics.
[01:51:13] Thank you guys for what you do.
[01:51:15] And again, thankless job, um, difficult job, dangerous job where people, you're helping
[01:51:25] people that don't want to help themselves in many cases.
[01:51:28] So thanks for everybody.
[01:51:31] Thanks for all those.
[01:51:32] Those first responders for what you guys do.
[01:51:35] Yeah.
[01:51:36] Um, now as far as training guys hard, and then you still get guys that get killed,
[01:51:45] bless them.
[01:51:48] But let me ask you, what is the alternative?
[01:51:50] Right.
[01:51:51] What are you going to do?
[01:51:52] Not train hard.
[01:51:53] Right.
[01:51:54] Um, you know, I had the first seals that were killed and I rack were killed under my command.
[01:52:01] So my guys, mark, mark Lee, Mikey Montzor and Ryan Job.
[01:52:08] And we trained as hard as possible.
[01:52:10] And we still took those characters.
[01:52:12] They're going to tell you we trained as hard as possible.
[01:52:16] And it wasn't for lack of training or lack of planning or lack of skill.
[01:52:23] It's the nature of combat.
[01:52:26] It's the risk of conducting operations in a hostile environment.
[01:52:31] And I'll tell you what, when I got back to America and I took over the training for the West
[01:52:36] Coast seal teams, that fact, that fact of losing my guys in combat, it made me
[01:52:48] fanatical about training.
[01:52:51] And I was already fanatical about training, but it multiplied it infinitely because it
[01:52:57] now became my mission to prepare these guys, the apps to the absolute best of my ability
[01:53:04] and get them ready for combat.
[01:53:08] In part of that preparation was making them understand what was at risk.
[01:53:13] And I think that's something that you should do here.
[01:53:19] You know, you don't know what's going to happen when you go into the field.
[01:53:22] And you don't know when it's going to happen.
[01:53:23] So everything you do should be to prepare yourself mentally and physically for the moment
[01:53:29] of truth, whether that happens at a traffic stop or while you're serving a war in a while
[01:53:36] you're stopping a bank robbery, you don't know when it is going to happen.
[01:53:40] And so you've got to tell these guys, tell them the truth of the danger and let it sink
[01:53:44] in and hound on it.
[01:53:50] And I tell this story from time to time, it's a statement.
[01:53:55] And it's because I remember this feeling and it was when I got back from Ramadi.
[01:54:02] And we were doing, we'd be doing urban training.
[01:54:05] And I would see a guy standing in the street, standing in the middle of the street, which
[01:54:11] is not a good move.
[01:54:12] Right?
[01:54:13] That's where bullets fly down.
[01:54:14] And you're standing in the middle of the street and it happened all the time, you guys
[01:54:16] were Ramadi.
[01:54:18] And I would see a guy that would be standing in the street.
[01:54:21] And I would literally feel sick.
[01:54:23] It was only for about maybe six to nine months after I got back when I'd go into the training
[01:54:27] site.
[01:54:28] I would feel sick to my stomach.
[01:54:29] I would just feel this horrible feeling because it was like I was waiting for something
[01:54:34] to be.
[01:54:35] I was waiting for him to get shot.
[01:54:37] And it felt horrible.
[01:54:40] And my goal was to transfer that feeling into their heads.
[01:54:46] I want to them to feel sick.
[01:54:47] I want to them to feel embarrassed and feel guilty and feel angry and feel disappointed that
[01:54:53] they were doing something wrong.
[01:54:56] Because I wanted them to change their behavior, which would keep them alive.
[01:55:06] So I would say in this case, you've got you're putting people through training, valuable
[01:55:13] training.
[01:55:14] And of course, they're still going to go out into a dangerous job.
[01:55:19] But you don't back off the training.
[01:55:22] You train harder.
[01:55:24] And you use these guys again.
[01:55:26] God bless them.
[01:55:28] You use these guys that were killed in action.
[01:55:33] As an example of, hey guys, this is why we're training hard.
[01:55:36] This is why we're going to push.
[01:55:38] This is why I want you to take personal responsibility for yourself and for your training
[01:55:44] and for your skill set.
[01:55:46] So that you're ready.
[01:55:54] You train how you fight and you fight how you train.
[01:56:01] You take advantage of that and be ready.
[01:56:07] You get a lot of times that pain of any kind of fail.
[01:56:12] In this case, this is an extreme case losing your guys.
[01:56:15] You're going through these extreme cases.
[01:56:18] And there's a spectrum of cases.
[01:56:21] But any kind of failure or mishab that causes any kind of pain, you can.
[01:56:27] And it's not easy.
[01:56:28] It's not easy.
[01:56:29] You can use that pain to facilitate your passion in a corrective way.
[01:56:35] Like how you say train harder.
[01:56:37] You can take that pain and literally focus on good ways of training, training hard, being
[01:56:44] attached to the results of training or the process of training.
[01:56:49] Yeah.
[01:56:50] And it'll, essentially, you can use that pain.
[01:56:52] You don't have to do it.
[01:56:53] Yeah, absolutely.
[01:56:54] You get a guy that's an MMA fighter that loses to a submission hold.
[01:56:58] You got to be like, you take that and you say, okay, but you've got to work as a
[01:57:01] judge, so you take a guy that gets his legs kicked out from underneath him.
[01:57:04] Okay, you've got to work your more time.
[01:57:05] So you take those painful training experiences and you put them like you said, you
[01:57:09] put them to work.
[01:57:10] Absolutely.
[01:57:11] Yeah.
[01:57:12] And a lot of times that'll come naturally.
[01:57:13] A lot of times, but it doesn't always.
[01:57:15] So in those cases, you can just actively and consciously take that pain and redirect it.
[01:57:21] You can do it.
[01:57:22] You can do that.
[01:57:23] And if it doesn't come naturally, it helps.
[01:57:29] Okay, Jockel, any advice, you have to continue to work out at 430 AM, but with two newborn
[01:57:36] twins at home, because it's a struggle to stay awake.
[01:57:41] It's real.
[01:57:43] Awesome question.
[01:57:45] And well, I have four kids.
[01:57:48] The first three of them were born in pretty rapid succession, not quite twins, obviously,
[01:57:54] but we had at one point we had three kids under three.
[01:57:58] So yeah, we were getting after it.
[01:58:02] And now part of that, I got to, you know, in full disclosure, I was deployed a fair amount,
[01:58:11] but when you got those young kids, here's what you got to do.
[01:58:16] You got to get it done.
[01:58:18] You got to get it done.
[01:58:19] And this idea that you're going to get it done on some pattern or some structure
[01:58:26] times schedule, it's going to fall apart.
[01:58:29] And you got to both sleep and working out.
[01:58:33] And every other thing that you're trying to get done in your life, you have to make it
[01:58:36] happen when you can make it happen.
[01:58:39] You know, you have to make it happen when you can make it happen.
[01:58:42] There's going to be no ideal time.
[01:58:43] You might be working out at 3 o'clock in the morning.
[01:58:47] You might be working out at 7 o'clock at night.
[01:58:48] You might be working out at midnight.
[01:58:50] You might be trying to sleep at noon.
[01:58:52] You don't know what's going to happen.
[01:58:54] I would definitely say when you got the young kids get some kind of a home gym setup at
[01:59:00] least get a pull-up bar at least get yourself a pull-up bar.
[01:59:04] Because if you have a pull-up bar, you can do everything.
[01:59:05] You can do pull-ups.
[01:59:06] Then you can do push-ups.
[01:59:07] You can do squats.
[01:59:08] You can do sprints.
[01:59:09] You can make stuff work if you at least have a pull-up bar.
[01:59:12] And then you just got to squeeze it in there.
[01:59:14] You know, it's a half an hour there.
[01:59:16] It's 20 minutes here.
[01:59:17] It's 15 minutes there.
[01:59:18] It's a power nap in the afternoon.
[01:59:21] It's some squats while you're sitting there holding the baby, trying to get the baby
[01:59:24] to fall asleep.
[01:59:26] That's what it is.
[01:59:27] It's the stroller to the park with a chalk bag.
[01:59:32] So when you get there, you can do some pull-ups on the swing set.
[01:59:34] That's what it becomes because life is going to have a vote in these situations.
[01:59:41] And your kids and your family are more important than you are.
[01:59:49] And that's something that is a tough reality for the young dads to face.
[01:59:58] All of a sudden you are not the most important thing in the world.
[02:00:02] At all, they are more important than you are.
[02:00:08] That being said, which I know is supposed to pay some kind of a fine when I say that being
[02:00:13] said.
[02:00:14] Somebody untaught or hassled me about it.
[02:00:17] That being said.
[02:00:18] So your kids are more important than you.
[02:00:19] Your family is more important.
[02:00:20] That being said, guess what?
[02:00:22] The number one thing you need to do for them.
[02:00:25] Stay healthy.
[02:00:26] You got to stay healthy.
[02:00:28] You can't get all out of shape and turn into a bum just because you got kids.
[02:00:33] They're looking to you to be able to provide for them for a long time.
[02:00:37] They're also looking at you as an example.
[02:00:40] That's a big one.
[02:00:41] So you got to be the right kind of example and physical fitness is part of that example.
[02:00:46] So they should see that from day one.
[02:00:49] They should know big daddy's doing some squats while he's holding me.
[02:00:53] And now I'm going to double down.
[02:00:57] That being said, this is not a time of your life when you have newborn twins that you're
[02:01:04] going to be in the optimal condition.
[02:01:07] You're not going to be at your peak performance.
[02:01:11] That's OK.
[02:01:12] Right?
[02:01:13] That's OK.
[02:01:14] Hey, man.
[02:01:15] You got things going on.
[02:01:16] You're a dad.
[02:01:18] You know, you're not with twins.
[02:01:19] You're not going to be setting any of your PRs on your deadlift.
[02:01:27] It's not going to happen.
[02:01:28] So but that's not a reason that you fall apart at all.
[02:01:33] You've got to hold the line as much as you can.
[02:01:36] You've got to balance this situation out.
[02:01:38] You've got to squeeze in.
[02:01:41] Dig in.
[02:01:42] You've got to be creative with your workout with your rest, with your sleep.
[02:01:47] When the opportunity presents itself, whichever one of those is the priority, you've
[02:01:50] got to go and get it on.
[02:01:54] And you know, it'll happen.
[02:01:57] It's not just when you have newborn kids.
[02:01:58] It'll happen with your job.
[02:02:00] You'll get some pressure situation at work.
[02:02:01] And all of a sudden, you've got to squeeze it in.
[02:02:04] I had about houses over time.
[02:02:08] And I would always buy these houses that were unlivable, just unlivable, just ransacked
[02:02:14] disasters because they were cheaper.
[02:02:18] And then I would go in and do these speed remodels alone by yourself.
[02:02:26] But you know, for instance, I did a, I got it a kitchen in one of my houses.
[02:02:31] Go to the kitchen and read the whole kitchen plumbing, electrical, new counters, the whole
[02:02:36] thing.
[02:02:37] And I got it.
[02:02:38] I didn't get the counter tops in because that was like, you know, especially guys coming
[02:02:41] to do that.
[02:02:42] But 72 hours.
[02:02:45] 72 hours nonstop work.
[02:02:48] When I moved into another house, I had, we pulled up the carpet.
[02:02:52] I thought there was these nice hardwood floors under the carpet, pulled up water damage,
[02:02:57] a third of the, a little bit more than a third of the phone was half the floor is
[02:03:00] water damage.
[02:03:01] I had to yank those boards out.
[02:03:04] And then sand this whole thing.
[02:03:06] It was a nightmare, but took me 72 hours of no sleep.
[02:03:10] Like I'd sleep for 20 minutes waiting for the next layer of varnish to dry sitting there
[02:03:16] in the fumes, right?
[02:03:17] But that's what you got to do sometimes.
[02:03:19] You got the bill.
[02:03:20] Like I said, a big project to work, something that's coming.
[02:03:23] And you got to figure out how to, what you can fit in when you can fit it in.
[02:03:27] And realize that there's benefit.
[02:03:29] There's benefit to that 20 minute little session you just did.
[02:03:33] Go do 100 burpees.
[02:03:34] Right.
[02:03:35] Go swing a candlebell.
[02:03:37] Just go swing.
[02:03:38] I was talking about the other day.
[02:03:39] I got the, I got the, I got the, the zombie bells.
[02:03:42] Right.
[02:03:43] But I got the zombie bells.
[02:03:44] You know, I have a garage gym.
[02:03:46] The zombie bells are in my house.
[02:03:49] Because I'm walking around.
[02:03:51] And sometimes you need to snatch a candlebell.
[02:03:53] Right.
[02:03:54] So sometimes you go snatch a candlebell.
[02:03:56] So, so you have that in that builds up.
[02:03:59] Because now you're just boom, you hit out, you know, you're not even breaking into a sweat.
[02:04:04] Just hit in 770, charm.
[02:04:06] You know, cannibal snatch.
[02:04:07] Maybe you just, you're just doing that.
[02:04:09] Yeah.
[02:04:10] And so that's the kind of thing.
[02:04:11] Maybe, you know, with newborn dad, you got to have that.
[02:04:14] You got to have that zombie bells hit me.
[02:04:16] Yes.
[02:04:17] Ready just to hit some snatches.
[02:04:18] You know, ready just to do some, some sumo deadlift high poles.
[02:04:22] Right.
[02:04:23] What's it going to be?
[02:04:24] Make it happen.
[02:04:25] We'll get the pull up bar.
[02:04:27] Or, or set a ring.
[02:04:28] The rings.
[02:04:29] Yeah.
[02:04:30] You know, something that you can rings are great.
[02:04:32] Because then you can do pull up.
[02:04:33] You can do dips.
[02:04:34] They're very, very versatile.
[02:04:36] Very versatile.
[02:04:37] But you're going to, the bottom line here is your life is going to change.
[02:04:44] It has changed.
[02:04:45] So it doesn't mean.
[02:04:47] And you know what your life has changed.
[02:04:50] And it just got better.
[02:04:51] It just got better.
[02:04:54] So what you need to do is you need to adapt to the new situation and continue to drive
[02:05:02] the excellence.
[02:05:04] But the excellence isn't going to be served up all at once.
[02:05:09] The excellence is going to be served up in little chunks throughout the day where you can
[02:05:12] grab it.
[02:05:13] Yeah.
[02:05:14] And that's the way it goes.
[02:05:16] Yeah.
[02:05:17] Another tip in, I am a twin.
[02:05:20] I don't have twins.
[02:05:21] Yeah, if you don't know, echo Charles is a twin.
[02:05:24] And by the way, we've got some requests for the Echo's story.
[02:05:29] So maybe next podcast, we can wear here Echo's story.
[02:05:32] Yeah.
[02:05:33] Yeah.
[02:05:34] Sure.
[02:05:35] I'll give you three minutes, 30 seconds for echo's story.
[02:05:39] I thought I'd need.
[02:05:42] But no one, when I had my daughter, and I'm pretty into working out.
[02:05:47] So to not work out was kind of hard or not have the time.
[02:05:52] But here's the thing.
[02:05:53] I'm really into the luxurious situation, resting for a long time and getting really
[02:05:58] mentally ready, like taking an hour and a half to get ready for us.
[02:06:01] I was used to that.
[02:06:02] So there was a big change to not have them much rest and not have them much time.
[02:06:07] So now you're doing jockel, vodka, you're getting even less less less.
[02:06:10] Yeah.
[02:06:11] Well, she's three now.
[02:06:12] So it's different.
[02:06:13] But a thing that helps on top of everything you said, which is in my opinion, absolutely
[02:06:19] correct, 100%.
[02:06:22] To add to it is work with your wife or husband, if you're a girl, and you're in
[02:06:27] you guys have kind of communicate with them, tell them that working out and staying in shape
[02:06:33] is important to me or whatever.
[02:06:37] A good way to put it is getting unhealthy at this time with our new kids means a lot,
[02:06:45] if I do that, it means a lot to stay healthy.
[02:06:49] So if you communicate, that'll help as well, because you can work with each other.
[02:06:52] When you have a new kids, it's kind of like one guy can capitalize on a rest time.
[02:06:59] And then the other guy will kind of stand watch with the kids and the other person can
[02:07:04] get rest.
[02:07:05] So, communicate, that'll help your situation so much.
[02:07:07] Yeah.
[02:07:08] So, I am guilty here of unintentional communications, because if I, you know, when my wife and
[02:07:21] I were in our kids were young, if I didn't work out, and quite honestly, if I didn't
[02:07:29] train you, you do, I'm not the, I'm yeah.
[02:07:33] I wouldn't recognize it, but it just would really frustrate me.
[02:07:38] And so eventually she said, you know what, just get your stupid ass out of here and go
[02:07:42] train, because I'd rather just have you go.
[02:07:46] And that's when I, you know, I'd show up at the gym at eight o'clock at night.
[02:07:50] Like Dean would be done teaching class and I'd come in there and we'd train for 38 minutes,
[02:07:54] you know, just go in there, get it on and come home.
[02:07:58] So, you know, try not to do that where you're a jerk, but there's something, I mean,
[02:08:04] I talk about this all the time that there is, there is a mind-abody connection that is
[02:08:09] undeniable.
[02:08:10] Yeah.
[02:08:11] And if you don't find a place to get that aggression out and get that, the endorphins
[02:08:17] flow and get the, the, the good feeling that you get from physical activity, then you're
[02:08:23] going to turn, you're going to turn a little bit nasty.
[02:08:26] Yeah.
[02:08:27] And then of course that, that, I bet you a lot of relationships really suffer from that
[02:08:32] and people don't recognize it.
[02:08:33] I think so too.
[02:08:34] I think in my experience from talking to people, okay, so okay, so that element of exercising
[02:08:40] and it being interrupted by new kids or something like that, that'll vary from person
[02:08:44] to person, right?
[02:08:45] So you being all nuts because you can't train, you know, the next guy might not be that
[02:08:50] nuts.
[02:08:51] It might affect, maybe this much, right?
[02:08:52] This much, you know, is different and A that goes along with what I said like communicating
[02:08:58] actively, you know, not like telling me that.
[02:09:02] Not you, like, you know, doing what you did, but communicate.
[02:09:07] And at the same time, if you're aware of it, which can be the hard part, if you're aware
[02:09:12] that you're just not as happy, just, just know that.
[02:09:15] So really kind of check yourself if you feel yourself losing your temporary, I'm, you know,
[02:09:19] I'm happy because I'm sacrificing a few training days.
[02:09:22] You're right, the red flag of, that's, that's a good, great point.
[02:09:27] The red flag of, hey, it sucks having kids.
[02:09:32] Yes, yes.
[02:09:33] The red flag, the reason you're feeling that is because it's this, part of that reason
[02:09:37] is because it's disrupting your physical activity.
[02:09:39] So recognize that and then do something about it, communicate with your spouse, set up
[02:09:46] a plan, get a pull-up bar, get a kettlebell in the house, do.
[02:09:52] And make it happen.
[02:09:53] Yeah, and then I think that's a good plan.
[02:09:55] Yeah, it's not going to be as luxurious as, you know, you're not going to be optimum.
[02:10:00] It's not like that.
[02:10:01] And a lot of times that, with me, that bothered me.
[02:10:04] You know, it didn't, I didn't really pay much of a price.
[02:10:07] You know, as far as it bothered me when something buzzed me, I don't like lose my temper,
[02:10:11] typically.
[02:10:12] But I did feel that, but like, oh my gosh, I don't have that much time.
[02:10:15] Or I don't have the energy because I didn't get enough sleep and it was kind of annoying.
[02:10:18] But at the same time, I did adapt and I got real good at, you know, like the exercise,
[02:10:25] like gymnast can do it like on a palm or something.
[02:10:27] Yeah.
[02:10:28] I'd go on the ground, I'd sit with my legs and feet out and run and you can lift yourself.
[02:10:31] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
[02:10:33] Man, I got real good at doing that.
[02:10:35] But nonetheless, back to the jujitsu thing, two things.
[02:10:41] Yeah, communicate, understand when you're starting to get a little irritating because you
[02:10:46] didn't, didn't train.
[02:10:47] Understand that.
[02:10:48] And then handle it accordingly.
[02:10:51] That's a on the flip side if you have the wrecking net because, okay, this is a typical situation
[02:10:57] where now you have kids, yeah, you still want to go train you jujitsu.
[02:11:01] But your wife is like, how can you reconcile going to train with your buddies, you know,
[02:11:07] because a lot of times the girlfriend and the wife will think that that's just some fun
[02:11:12] in games.
[02:11:13] They're mine.
[02:11:14] They think it's another relationship.
[02:11:15] Yes, they have going on.
[02:11:16] Yeah, yeah, but they don't understand the importance of the family.
[02:11:20] Yeah, potentially.
[02:11:21] Yeah, sense of spectrum.
[02:11:23] So it's important to, like I said, communicate and let them know that it's not that.
[02:11:30] Yeah.
[02:11:31] And they don't always get it.
[02:11:32] I understand that.
[02:11:33] But if you just can communicate and effectively get the message that it is an important
[02:11:38] thing in life.
[02:11:39] Hey, listen, darling, what's important to you?
[02:11:43] What's it?
[02:11:44] You know what it is, whether it's running or whether it's their biking or whether it's
[02:11:47] their anything.
[02:11:49] Day night with their girls or whatever the case may be.
[02:11:52] That's what you've got.
[02:11:53] This is what I've got.
[02:11:54] I've got these two things.
[02:11:55] I've got to work out.
[02:11:56] I've got to train some jujitsu.
[02:11:57] Yeah.
[02:11:58] You know, that's what I've got to do.
[02:11:59] But be fair though.
[02:12:00] Yeah, if you're going seven days a week before the kids and you still want to go seven
[02:12:04] days with three hours a day, understand that.
[02:12:06] Okay, you got to bring it down to like six.
[02:12:08] I was really bad.
[02:12:09] Yeah, I can't.
[02:12:10] Yeah, I was really bad.
[02:12:15] Yeah, I can't see that.
[02:12:16] But it's in a way it's not fair.
[02:12:17] You know, like, not only to your wife, but to the fact that you have kids now.
[02:12:24] You know, there's only so much jockel can go around.
[02:12:27] Yeah, I don't.
[02:12:30] I'm questioning whether I should tell this, but I'm going to do.
[02:12:33] So there was times where I would come home from work in the sealed teams, work until
[02:12:39] seven o'clock at night.
[02:12:41] I come home from work, walk through the door, drop my work bag, and pick up my gym bag.
[02:12:49] My wife's there with three young kids, and she would be looking at me with the expression
[02:12:57] of, are you freaking serious?
[02:13:02] Because, you know, I'm only home for, let's call it, four days, then I'm going on
[02:13:06] to the trip that I'm home for three days.
[02:13:08] So those four days, she's thinking, cool, he's home for four days, family time.
[02:13:12] I'm thinking, cool, home for four days.
[02:13:14] That's not a time of time.
[02:13:17] But again, what she realized was that if she was to stop me, she's got a jerk in the house.
[02:13:28] Not even, I mean, just, just, it just is.
[02:13:32] It's just the reality of it.
[02:13:33] You know, I just would be freely frustrated with the situation.
[02:13:37] And all I want to do is just go train because it's part of who I am, and I want to get
[02:13:41] on the mat, and I want to get better, and I want to, it's very selfish, right?
[02:13:45] I mean, all the reasons are selfish.
[02:13:46] But that'd be, that'd be, you said.
[02:13:50] But the reality is, that's me.
[02:13:58] That's me.
[02:13:59] Yeah, that's me.
[02:14:00] That's me.
[02:14:01] You can't change.
[02:14:02] Yes, you can.
[02:14:03] Me.
[02:14:04] Yeah.
[02:14:05] This is still going to be you, but, you know, this is going to sound real obvious and
[02:14:09] cliche, but the whole compromise thing, you know, when you guys have a punchy kids, you
[02:14:14] got to compromise that.
[02:14:15] And don't be like, hey, everyone else in the whole group, by the way, the kids even,
[02:14:21] though, you know, your wife, everyone in the whole group, you guys compromise a factor of
[02:14:25] eight out of ten.
[02:14:26] Me, I'm just going to compromise a factor of point five.
[02:14:29] Because I'm still going to go to duty to every single day for as long as I've done
[02:14:33] it.
[02:14:34] You all the things that you've done before you get to do that.
[02:14:37] Yeah.
[02:14:38] I don't think you can do that.
[02:14:40] Yeah, no, you shouldn't do that.
[02:14:42] But I am saying, yeah, and I did.
[02:14:45] Yeah, and I did.
[02:14:46] And I did a lot of it.
[02:14:47] It's not aware.
[02:14:48] A lot of time.
[02:14:49] You're not saying, you know what, I know I'm being a dick right now.
[02:14:52] And you know what, I'm okay with being a dick right now.
[02:14:54] Yeah.
[02:14:55] You know, if then that's your fault for not letting me turn you or whatever.
[02:14:56] Yeah, I guess I might not have been the best.
[02:15:01] The best husband.
[02:15:02] It's very good.
[02:15:05] And it's, I don't want to say it's good, but when you have new kids and especially twins.
[02:15:11] Yeah, no, no, no, no, no.
[02:15:13] It does allow you to reconcile what's important.
[02:15:18] You know, like, let's say every Tuesday you went to talk to us day or something like that
[02:15:23] and drank every Tuesday right before kids.
[02:15:25] Now you got twins.
[02:15:26] It's kind of like, man, really how you get that honestly ask yourself, is that kind
[02:15:30] of stuff important now?
[02:15:32] No, talk with who's he's not important.
[02:15:34] Compared to kids, yeah, no, but you could say time with my friends is important and all
[02:15:37] of this stuff, but the drinking and I just all little little detailed things that you can
[02:15:41] easily go without.
[02:15:43] And in a lot of cases do better without, but their vices or whatever.
[02:15:47] When you can, when you have twins or new kids or just kids in general, you do get that opportunity
[02:15:55] to reconcile what's more important.
[02:15:56] Yeah, you, you get to prioritize next to you.
[02:15:59] Sure, for sure.
[02:16:01] Don't do.
[02:16:02] All right, we have a congratulations twins.
[02:16:04] It's a big deal.
[02:16:05] Yeah, no doubt.
[02:16:06] I hope the names are echoing.
[02:16:09] Yeah, I mean, what ever.
[02:16:12] Yeah, that's a long time.
[02:16:16] Yeah.
[02:16:17] Jockel.
[02:16:19] Knowledge is a powerful tool to become knowledgeable.
[02:16:24] You must ask good questions.
[02:16:27] Do you have advice for asking good questions?
[02:16:31] Yeah, I mean, knowledge is a powerful tool, for sure.
[02:16:41] I mean, it's, it's the master of tools, right?
[02:16:46] It's where all your tools come from.
[02:16:51] Because without knowledge there's nothing.
[02:16:53] And you know, you take that one step further and really knowledge is, it's a weapon.
[02:17:02] It's the ultimate weapon.
[02:17:05] And it trumps all other weapons, right?
[02:17:07] Thought is what wins.
[02:17:08] The mind is what wins.
[02:17:10] The knowledge is what wins.
[02:17:14] And you absolutely, you, you, you gain knowledge by asking questions, right?
[02:17:23] So my advice for asking questions is, for example, question everything.
[02:17:31] Don't, don't just accept anything as truth.
[02:17:38] Question it all.
[02:17:39] Question everything.
[02:17:40] I tell my kids when they go to school to sit in the front of the classroom and when they,
[02:17:45] when they, when they don't understand something, the second they don't understand something,
[02:17:50] just put your hand right up in there.
[02:17:52] And say, I don't understand that.
[02:17:55] I don't understand that part.
[02:17:55] Can you go over that again?
[02:17:59] And that's how you need to be in life.
[02:18:02] That's how I try to be.
[02:18:04] When you don't understand a word, break out a dictionary and look it up.
[02:18:10] If you don't understand a concept, break down the concept until you do understand.
[02:18:15] If you don't know how something works, dig into it until you do know how it works.
[02:18:21] Ask every question that comes to mind.
[02:18:26] And I'm not saying that you have to blur that why, why, why, why this, like a five-year-old,
[02:18:32] and everything you see.
[02:18:33] But yes, ask those questions and learn and most importantly, question yourself.
[02:18:43] Question yourself every day, ask yourself.
[02:18:48] Who, who am I?
[02:18:53] What have I learned?
[02:18:54] What have I created?
[02:18:57] What forward progress have I made?
[02:19:03] Who have I helped?
[02:19:07] What am I doing to improve myself today to get better, faster, stronger, healthier, smarter?
[02:19:18] Ask yourself is this what I want to be, this is this all I've got.
[02:19:32] Is this everything I can give?
[02:19:37] Is this going to be my life?
[02:19:47] And do I accept that?
[02:19:56] You got to ask yourself those questions, those hard questions, and you got to answer them.
[02:20:02] Get to answer them truthfully.
[02:20:04] And you got to realize that all of us, all of us, can do better.
[02:20:13] You can be better.
[02:20:18] You just got to take that first step.
[02:20:22] And that first step is when you begin to ask those questions.
[02:20:33] So advice on asking questions, ask the hard questions, and ask the hard questions of
[02:20:42] yourself and in the answers to those questions is where you find that path, the path
[02:20:56] to progress, and the path to freedom inside your mind.
[02:21:06] And I think that's all I've got for tonight.
[02:21:18] Thanks to all the troopers out there for tuning in, listening, spending some time in my
[02:21:22] mind with my strange little thoughts appreciated.
[02:21:27] Thanks for sharing your thoughts with me on the inner web connecting.
[02:21:32] It definitely is cool to have everybody connect with me and give me feedback, giving us
[02:21:36] feedback about what's going on, supporting the podcast, listening, downloading, subscribing,
[02:21:40] reviewing, all that stuff is very helpful and very cool.
[02:21:44] And we got a couple other things that we can do that you can do if you want to support,
[02:21:49] if you want to support the podcast.
[02:21:51] So what can I do echo?
[02:21:53] First thing they can do, if you want, when you're, your Amazon shopping, just click
[02:21:59] if you can link on our website to updates, talk about cast.com and jocosstore.com.
[02:22:05] We do have shirts, I haven't mentioned that before.
[02:22:10] We have shirts if you like those, get some of those and a coffee mug.
[02:22:15] If you want, if you like them, and then you can, we have a Facebook page now.
[02:22:21] Okay, Facebook.com.
[02:22:22] And that's so people can ask questions.
[02:22:24] You have a longer question.
[02:22:29] Yeah, because sometimes hard to ask questions in 140 characters.
[02:22:31] And actually less than that because you got to put the joccal well in.
[02:22:34] So the Facebook pages, Facebook.com slash jockel podcast.
[02:22:39] And you can put your questions there.
[02:22:42] Once or those ones.
[02:22:44] And of course, good up on it on it.com slash jockel.
[02:22:49] They support us.
[02:22:50] Yes.
[02:22:51] Yeah, and you get 10% off. Boom, they support you too.
[02:22:54] Just like that for the supplements and cool kettle bills and whatnot.
[02:22:59] Yeah, there it is.
[02:23:01] Then you got the donation.
[02:23:03] Thank you.
[02:23:04] Yes.
[02:23:05] We're asking for it.
[02:23:06] Yeah, it's a strong request for the donation situation.
[02:23:09] And I didn't know how to feel about it at first, but man, yeah, thank you.
[02:23:13] Thank you.
[02:23:14] Thank you guys for that.
[02:23:15] And it is available.
[02:23:16] So thank you.
[02:23:17] Thank you.
[02:23:18] I did it.
[02:23:19] Yeah, for $4.34.
[02:23:20] That's what I did.
[02:23:21] $4.34.
[02:23:22] It's from Jocco.
[02:23:23] So if you want to donate, you can donate.
[02:23:26] And besides, thanks for all that support.
[02:23:29] Thanks for getting the book, stream ownership.
[02:23:32] You know, hard to cover.
[02:23:34] Kindle, audio book.
[02:23:35] If you didn't know that.
[02:23:37] Review it.
[02:23:38] And you know what?
[02:23:40] All that stuff is great, but most importantly, here's what you need to do.
[02:23:44] Get up and get out of bed in the morning.
[02:23:47] Shake off that drearyness and that darkness and cleanse your fists and go out into the light
[02:23:57] out of the world and get after it.
[02:24:00] That's what you need to do.
[02:24:02] So until next time, this is Jocco and Echo out.