Jocko Podcast 153 w/ Dennis Rowley: SCRAMBLE The Seawolves

2018-11-30T01:20:13Z

Join the conversation on Twitter/Instagram: @jockowillink @echocharles 0:00:00 - Opening 0:04:00 - Dennis Rowley and The Seawolves. 1:48:00 - Final thoughts and take-aways. 1:50:00 - Support. How to stay on THE PATH. 2:14:00 - Closing gratitude.

AI summary of episode

but no I thoroughly enjoyed it uh lifelong friends there and just keep me to a story the two guys that were flying uh the uh Boeing's in secoreski dear friends one of them was an naval academy classmate and he and i flew in Vietnam and uh the other guy Greek is just a wonderful guy and still a lifelong close friend well duck uh was unfortunately fortunately for uh Hughes became their chief test pilot uh he got out of the navy and was uh flying for Hughes and was killed in uh in a horrible uh accident and Greek and uh uh sort of sort of close ranks and uh decided that uh we were going to uh try and send uh duck off in good stead To essentially the same with, uh, with our 50s, uh, they, uh, mounted that so that it, uh, would, uh, uh, fire, uh, 90 degrees, uh, longitudinally, and that was a, uh, a very powerful weapon for not only, uh, uh, keeping, uh, keeping guys down, but also, uh, gave us a, uh, a great degree of flexibility in the, in the, in the break. yeah then uh what was it like um was it standard Vietnam where just replacements would come when it was time for a guy to rotate out a new guy would show up pretty much like I mentioned earlier I was sort of kind of drift at the uh an apple of so tell and happened to run into uh got weird Harold who you referenced in that wolf gram he uh came just walking through uh with uh the uh death 401c uh Colonel Hammond we called him currently was a navy commander and uh uh Dave introduced us and said hey this is a great guy we should have him and as a turns out they had an opening and uh within a matter of a few days I was in debt Uh, eventually this group, uh, got, uh, some miniguns, most of all of our, uh, dead birds eventually, uh, had, uh, miniguns and the guys in the back would, uh, fly them and it, uh, did wonders for, uh, keeping, uh, keeping heads down as did the, uh, 50 cows that, uh, that we had. any protocol that you guys set up was there anything that you guys did to to try and take that on board and then move past it I probably missed out on a leadership opportunity and when guys got killed uh and other deaths in combat or even just uh ferrying an aircraft in for maintenance I didn't sit down with the guys and talk about it I internalized it and being Irish would reflect on all the good times we had didn't think about uh what what went wrong didn't want to know initially you know eventually you do because it's important for uh for your trade that uh I just think about the good times that we we shared together I lost a couple of the catamacross classmates I lost some great friends that I made while I was in country uh when you unfelling I don't want to mention any names but he and I were both bicyclists and the one thing that he wanted to do when he got back home was build himself the pre-mo bike and uh start to start competing and he never got that opportunity and when you when you personalize something like that when you think about the opportunities that are lost in a heartbeat it makes you very thankful to be alive it makes you very thankful of the two of known that person and it makes you feel like you should redouble your efforts to get the sons of bitches that took that life away from them. So the army was, uh, uh, uh, a, uh, a, a, a temp into a work with them there, where all sorts of, uh, a minor operational, uh, problemist overcome, uh, who's calling out the missions, uh, uh, uh, what, uh, the support area is, it's just wasn't working well. And perhaps I should explain, uh, that by the break, uh, we typically would fly in a, uh, in the wagon wheel type, uh, uh, type approach, uh, two helicopters, uh, roughly, uh, flying, uh, 180 out from, uh, one another. So the Navy decided that, uh, we needed a Navy squadron and they turned to HC1, the fleet angels, uh, to put, put a few deaths in place, to help provide cover for the, uh, the brown water navy and by brown water navy, I mean the, uh, small boat guys, the seals, any Navy, navy, uh, uh, uh, vessel that was down in the, uh, in the, in the me column. it it wasn't a primary mission of ours if somebody got shot up and uh needed to lift out the town we'd provide that and occasionally we'd uh get a call that uh someone was uh wounded and uh we'd go out and pick him up but generally that was a job that was done by some certifiable idiots that I love the uh the dust soft pilots you got uh 2019 20 year old kids that are out there given the keys to uh a mazorati Chris this was only a Huey and I think that that quote just really exemplifies the the bond between seals and sea wolves and like I said it was something that I heard about as a young seal and it's a bond that still exists when when I talk to the Vietnam seals and it's a bond that's uh that's always going to be there and um all into that do you have any uh you know like I said we've been at it for a while and I like I like I told you before we started I could sit else in here I could sit here to listen to you all day but uh do you have any other you know any other closing thoughts that you want to that you want to mention uh hand salute to the 44 that didn't make it back with us uh anyone who hasn't been to the wall anybody who served who hasn't been to the wall you ought to make that trip a shout out again I hope I'm not going in the too many sea stories but that great friend about the only guy at names I'm using your guys who were just ceased but that huge canis was a copilot and we were set off to uh for uh to uh to Guam for some uh specialized training and he and I are there in our uh in our uh poopy suits at the bar the O'Claub bar at the Air Force base on Guam and we're in enjoying a couple of beers which tasted good and all of a sudden this bell rings like crazy and income these guys in pressed flight suits with ass gotts and everybody in the bar all the Air Force guys are standing at attention this B52 crew coming back from a mission and we're just sitting there with Air elbows on the bar and the crowd didn't know what to make of us so uh if you're familiar with San Diego now you know about the point luma lighthouse and the area up there that's where the family was waiting Hughes had given us a uh 500 to uh scatter the remains in uh that Greek took it upon himself to do this now at this time he probably had uh 2500 flytars he knew his way around the helicopter he's in his navy blues he gets in the aircraft he's got the cremeins in his lap and they're flying out along well below uh the uh the point on on out over the ocean and he looks up and sees the family up there yes we were the only uh uh helicopter out there that wasn't on the large gray boats to actually fly the mission that could provide combat search and rescue uh so uh we took full advantage of that uh got the uh armament that we thought we passing through Guam uh I didn't like the side arm I had and uh you're expected to add an old figuratively put your boots up on the table one day I got so pissed off the middle of the morning I uh jumped in my Corvette remember that uh hey I learned I learned jumped in my Corvette and uh uh Toran up to uh Coronado and two of the seals that we operated with friends uh were there and I walked into the office they had their LSDs pulled up face to face Uh, so, uh, the, uh, the nine deaths to helicopters in each, uh, each, uh, Huey was, uh, basically configured with two seven shot rocket pods, uh, 2.75 folding thin aerial rockets. but yeah there was a lot of uh beer and other things that were drank and and I don't know you know there's it was sort of uh it was sort of it seemed like the the normal thing to do I don't know it seemed like we were gonna kind of get it out of our systems for a little while and you know um get over it because it is it is you know it's not that big of a deal I don't want to make it sound like it's all crazy

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Episode transcript

[00:00:00] This is Jockel Podcasts number 153.
[00:00:03] With echo Charles and me, Jockel Willink.
[00:00:06] Good evening echo. Good evening.
[00:00:11] Congressional resolution honoring the veterans of helicopter attack light squadron 3 and their families.
[00:00:19] Whereas helicopter attack light squadron 3 here and after in this resolution referred to as
[00:00:26] Hal3 began its history as detachments of Navy helicopter combat support squadron 1,
[00:00:33] HC1 which began helicopter gun shipped operations in support of Navy,
[00:00:39] Brownwater Special Operations and Army units in the Mekong Delta of South Vietnam on September 19, 1966.
[00:00:48] Whereas the detachments of HC1 adopted the name C Wolves.
[00:00:54] Whereas Hal3 was officially established on April 1, 1967 in Vong Tau, South Vietnam and was the only active duty
[00:01:05] Navy helicopter gunship squadron in the history of naval aviation.
[00:01:11] Whereas during the squadron's existence nearly 3,000 veterans of Hal3 displayed extraordinary courage in support of United States military and political objectives in Vietnam.
[00:01:24] Whereas 44 veterans of Hal3 gave their lives in support of military operations in the Mekong Delta Vietnam.
[00:01:33] Whereas the extraordinary performance of the veterans of Hal3 earned numerous unit citations,
[00:01:40] including six presidential unit citations.
[00:01:44] Seven Navy unit commendations, one meritorious unit commendation, a Republic of Vietnam meritorious unit commendation,
[00:01:52] and the Vietnam service medal.
[00:01:57] Whereas the valor of the veterans of Hal3 earned 5 Navy crosses, 31 silver stars,
[00:02:05] 2 Legion of Merit medals, 5 Navy Marine Corps medals,
[00:02:10] 219 distinguished flying crosses, 156 Purple Hearts, 101 Bronze Stars,
[00:02:17] 142 Republic of Vietnam Galantry crosses,
[00:02:21] over 16,000 air medals, 439 Navy commendation medals, and 228 Navy achievement medals,
[00:02:29] making it possible the most decorated Navy squadron during the Vietnam War.
[00:02:36] Whereas the maintenance and administrative personnel of Hal3 contributed greatly to the success of the nine Hal3 detachments operating throughout the Mekong Delta,
[00:02:45] providing the detachments with superb maintenance, support, and logistics.
[00:02:52] Whereas Hal3 flew over 130,000 hours of combat and logistical support,
[00:02:59] whereas Hal3 inflicted several thousand casualties on enemy forces,
[00:03:05] whereas Hal3 performed 1,530 medical evacuations,
[00:03:12] whereas Hal3 delivered over 37,000 passengers and over 1 million pounds of cargo.
[00:03:21] And whereas Hal3 was disestablished in March 1972 at Bing-Thuy South Vietnam,
[00:03:29] as part of the Vietnamization program, leaving behind it a combat and humanitarian record,
[00:03:35] recognizing, recognized as bringing great credit upon the United States Navy,
[00:03:40] and its role in a Vietnam War.
[00:03:43] Now, therefore, be it resolved that the House of Representatives won,
[00:03:50] honors the service, courage, and sacrifice of the veterans of Hal3,
[00:03:55] two honors the families of Hal3 veterans for their support,
[00:04:00] three expresses its condolences to the families and comrades of those killed in action.
[00:04:08] And four, recognizes Hal3 as a unique squadron in the history of naval aviation.
[00:04:16] And that resolution of recognition was made in 2010, actually 38 years after the sea wolves were
[00:04:32] disestablished in Vietnam. And that is a long time to wait for recognition.
[00:04:42] And this is because, well, for one thing, they weren't looking for recognition,
[00:04:47] but also to much of the world, the sea wolves were relatively unknown.
[00:04:56] For me, having grown up in the sea of teams, I actually knew about the sea wolves.
[00:05:02] I knew about the reputation from the Vietnam era seals that held them in the absolute highest regard.
[00:05:11] Possibly. Then they were considered extremely courageous.
[00:05:18] Sometimes beyond courageous, they were incredible pilots and highly aggressive gunners,
[00:05:27] and the teams that maintained and kept the aircraft flying in really horrible conditions,
[00:05:33] they were known for getting the job done. And there's one thing that always stuck in my mind
[00:05:37] when I heard stories about the sea wolves in Vietnam. And that was this. Simply, if you called them,
[00:05:47] they would come. And it didn't matter if it was day or night.
[00:05:51] Sunny skies or typhoon rains, a calm extraction or a hot landing zone filled with enemy fire
[00:05:59] to the sea wolves, none of that mattered. What mattered is that the troops on the ground needed help.
[00:06:07] And if you called the sea wolves, they would come. And it is an honor today to have one of these
[00:06:18] men here with us to tell us about this relatively unknown, but at the same time, legendary
[00:06:26] squadron of naval aviation, helicopter attack squadron, light, Halthry, the sea wolves. And we have
[00:06:35] Dennis Rally, Naval Officer, Naval Aviator, and of course, Sea Wolf.
[00:06:42] Sir, absolutely honored to have you on the show. Thank you for coming.
[00:06:48] Jackal, I thank you, and you echo, for the opportunity to be here. It's something that I didn't
[00:06:56] want to do. You know, you hear the old saw about, you don't talk about the war. And I think that's
[00:07:04] true of most all of the guys that I knew and flew in thought with. We just don't talk about it
[00:07:09] except over a beer in a bar somewhere with that. Guys, we've trusted our lives too.
[00:07:17] However, my wife, Stinky, and my son and daughter, when they heard about this opportunity told me
[00:07:25] you got to do this. You got to help keep the reputation of the sea wolves alive. And I don't think
[00:07:33] that reputation needs a lot of build up on my part. But I'm here to honor the 44 of our brothers
[00:07:42] who were able to come on back with us. And I'm here to help share a little bit of history about the
[00:07:49] squadron. And I'm here to thank everyone of you Swing and Dick Gunners who helped me get my little pink
[00:07:57] body back without any additional holes in it. Those guys are phenomenal. I mean, they're really
[00:08:03] something. But we'll get into that. It's a pleasure to be here. I'm looking forward to the conversation.
[00:08:10] I'm still scratching my head is to why I'm here because you guys have giant saw this show.
[00:08:17] You just had a fella who was a highly decorated marine infrety officer. He went on to get a
[00:08:27] lot of degree. He went on to work in the VA. He became the secretary of the Navy. He became a
[00:08:34] congressman from the great state of Virginia. And oh, by the way, it was a little known candidate
[00:08:41] for President of the US. And party politics aside, this country would have been better off
[00:08:46] if Jim Webb had been our president. Totally agree. Yeah. And I can say that not from, you know,
[00:08:52] just a casual reading of his bio. I know Jim because it was a class made of mine at the Naval Academy.
[00:08:59] I know Jim because it was a company made of mine at the Naval Academy. And I know Jim to be the
[00:09:07] kind of a man that I would hope my son would become just a great guy. I can also say that I know Jim
[00:09:16] because for a brief time, plebes summer, we run together. So you're looking at one of the only guys
[00:09:21] that you'll ever meet who is proud to share the fact that he slept with the secretary of the Navy.
[00:09:29] So yeah, we're here to spread the word and have a little fun. The one thing that was really
[00:09:36] important about recent past is a sea wool for union. We have reunions every every couple of years.
[00:09:43] And now many reunions more frequently. But this one was pretty special. It was about two months ago.
[00:09:50] We were gathered on the flight deck of the midway for the premier of a documentary called Scramble
[00:09:57] the Sea Wolves. They had a big inflatable screen on the flight deck. And we were all up there
[00:10:02] laughing and scratching. One thing that I noticed about the entire experience is Manov's
[00:10:09] guys look old. I mean, yeah. But the documentary was very well shot. It's actually being released on
[00:10:23] KPS and PBS. And I assume that shortly after that will be available on YouTube. But it gave us a sense
[00:10:31] of pride. And I think I can speak for everyone that it gave us a little greater sense of belonging
[00:10:40] based upon the fact that our story could now be told.
[00:10:45] Yeah, no, that's a, I've watched it. Anybody can watch it. You can, if you Google Scramble the Sea Wolves
[00:10:49] KPS, the it'll pop up and you can watch it. Just, you know, there's no email to sign up for
[00:10:55] it's free. That's how you can, you can watch it. Let's, let's talk about the sea. Well, let's
[00:11:01] talk a little bit about your past because I think you're, I mean, starting with your, your dad
[00:11:07] being a pilot. And now let's start with that and what that was like growing up.
[00:11:13] Well, my dad would really be pissed off at you for calling them a pilot because dad was an aviation
[00:11:17] or an insurance. And he knew that the guys in the back were doing the job and the guys up front
[00:11:24] were just a steer in the bus. No, my dad William John Raleigh was a hell of a guy. He was an
[00:11:32] interesting man. And that's a nice thing you can say about somebody, I think. Dad was a kind of a guy
[00:11:37] who could walk into a room and full of strangers and an hour later walk out and everybody thought
[00:11:43] to his or new best friend. Good guy, great guy. But he comes from a long line of warriors, my grandfather
[00:11:51] who married my grandmother from Hilo. Yeah, he, he thought in the World War I, I have a wonderful
[00:11:59] picture at home of my mom and her three brothers taken during World War II. And Uncle Walt is there
[00:12:06] in his Marine Corps uniform. Uncle Bob is there in his Navy Blues. And my uncle Jim is there
[00:12:13] in his Army Air Force uniform. Yeah. And then when World War II broke out, my dad and his
[00:12:21] brother, my uncle herb, both joined the Navy. Dad went on in the aviation ordinance and came out
[00:12:28] the other end of the the pipe after peace is one of the last of the Tojo chiefs, a guy who made
[00:12:33] chief in little over three years. He's an interesting fellow. And leadership lesson number one for me
[00:12:43] was the way he helped me grow as I was coming up. You would think that a chief buddy officer
[00:12:51] in the Navy can be very gruff and directive. And they, they can and they are when it's required.
[00:12:57] But dad never told me, go do this. He'd say, have you ever considered, have you ever thought about
[00:13:06] have you ever? And he brought it into practice one day when I was just getting ready for college
[00:13:13] and trying to decide where I was going to go. He had just come back from a mid-cruise and he had
[00:13:19] one of his jails, a pilot, a naval academy grad, inviting me over to his house for dinner.
[00:13:27] I thought that was a little strange, but I was pretty excited about it. The guy came and picked me
[00:13:32] up in a brand new yellow Corvette and took me over to his home and introduced me to his drop dead
[00:13:39] gorgeous Swedish wife. Now dad didn't have to say, you should go to the naval academy for the
[00:13:45] experience in learning leadership. He brought it down to a level that I could understand.
[00:13:50] Yeah, you'd get issued a Swedish wife.
[00:13:54] Well actually what I want to jocco was somebody five, five, nine long straight blonde here,
[00:13:58] good-head bitch and bod. What he completely intelligent and, uh,
[00:14:03] in-beued with a mating instincts of a wild mink and heat. But what the good lords off it to
[00:14:08] pyramy up with was stinky and she's a stumpy little brown here. You're all that's just
[00:14:12] ordinary as a sack of wild cats. So yeah, he needed funny hell at all works out.
[00:14:19] So so you you go meet this pilot and did that, did that flip the switch in your head?
[00:14:25] Well, I always knew I wanted to be a naval aviator. It's just something that I wanted.
[00:14:33] I had initially had dreams of going in and flying spads. That day,
[00:14:39] a one was just a hell of a weapon scarier in that closer support mission that was non-parallel
[00:14:45] in my way of thinking. They got a lot of guys out of the ship. But that didn't work out because
[00:14:51] aircraft was being retired as I was going through flight school. The thought of going to the
[00:14:58] naval academy was always intriguing to me. I didn't know that I'd be able to make that.
[00:15:02] But I was one of the, you know, I'm sort of large. And I was one of the only navy
[00:15:09] dependence who were in the athletics in Kubisaki High School on Okinawa,
[00:15:15] where I went through all four years of high school. And the senior naval officer on the island
[00:15:21] had roomed with Wayne Harden, the football coach at Navy. They did a quick scout and told me to take
[00:15:29] a competitive exam and I'd be considered for the academy. I had a year to waste.
[00:15:38] Well, I was waiting to get into the academy. So I went to Berkeley. This is in the 1963-64 school year,
[00:15:44] which was very colorful. Mario Yoselvo was up there doing his dirty word movement on the steps
[00:15:51] of the administration business. It was ugly. My parents lived across the hill in Walnut Creek,
[00:15:56] California, and every time the news was over, I'd get a frantic call from my mother. Are you okay?
[00:16:03] You're okay? Yeah, my mom. I'm okay. Yeah. But it didn't rate to following that year at Berkeley.
[00:16:10] Every seat of presidential appointment. And even though he had been assassinated,
[00:16:17] John Kennedy signatures was on that. Yeah. And I went back to the to the to Navy,
[00:16:23] fell in love with crew, and I can honestly say that if it hadn't been for rowing at Navy,
[00:16:32] I probably wouldn't have made it through. I probably would have quit, which is something that you
[00:16:37] would have been pissed off about. I would have been. Yeah. And why is that? Because it gave you something
[00:16:42] to focus on, it gave you an outlet. Exactly. Crew is hands down the the greatest team sport
[00:16:50] that you can imagine. If even one person is not pulling their weight, is not exactly in
[00:16:57] sync. The rhythm of the boat suffers. It'll be dragged down. And everyone will know exactly
[00:17:05] the reason for that. You can tell by the size of the puddle, the way the boat is set. It's phenomenal.
[00:17:13] So it's a great lesson in group leadership and that everyone has to be a leader in that shell
[00:17:21] to put their their the maximum that they can into it to make the boat move. If you get a chance
[00:17:27] for you to book called the boys in the boat. It's a great insight into what ruins all about. And
[00:17:33] you guys should be up on other sports. And so you you row at the Naval Academy. How is your
[00:17:44] how is your since you kind of grew up in the Navy, your dad was a chief. You must have been at
[00:17:48] least somewhat prepared for the you know the shock and awe of children's structures and
[00:17:53] upper classmen and all that stuff. It wasn't the the drilling structures or the the upper classman.
[00:18:01] It was the chicken ship. I had a guy and our company that just hated me and he'd stand me up in
[00:18:09] the passageway and they had a plastic baseball bat and beat me in the chest with it. Yeah, it's a
[00:18:16] non-event, you know, funk funk funk. But if I saw that guy again, I would grip his head off
[00:18:24] because it was just so juvenile. I was a couple of years older than my classmates for a number of
[00:18:28] reasons I flunked again to garden. But at any rate it was a yeah you just don't do things like that.
[00:18:34] There's no there's no leadership lessons there's no benefit to be had from some of the stuff
[00:18:40] that was going on in there. But when I got out there on the water with my teammates, you know,
[00:18:45] it all just went away. Yeah, there's something to be learned from having to put up with such crap.
[00:18:52] And I think there's two ways people go with it. Sometimes they go with like, oh, I'm going to be
[00:18:57] able to do that one day and give people a bunch of shit about whatever and some people go, okay,
[00:19:02] I'm never going to act like that. Yeah, you know. Yeah. And then how and and so you were Jim
[00:19:11] Web's roommate, pleaps summer. Just for a few days, but we were in the same company for all four
[00:19:17] years. Yeah. And then he's a heck of a guy. Yeah. Oh, no, it was awesome. It was a real honor to have him
[00:19:23] on here. And you know, he he told a similar story. And he wrote about it in some of his books, which was,
[00:19:29] you know, a guy just smack him in the ass with some kind of bat. It was our song book.
[00:19:35] And and their telling him he needs to say, you know, just admit that it hurts and he wouldn't admit it.
[00:19:41] But same thing, you know, he's like, he, he, he, what do you say? He said, you know, I don't
[00:19:45] hold anything against those guys that did that to me, but I remember the names.
[00:19:49] Yeah. So I think they made the list for Jim Web. Yeah. Um, and then how did you end up pick it?
[00:19:57] So you, you already automatically knew you wanted to be a pilot. Absolutely. And was that hard to get selected
[00:20:04] for that? Um, no, it was a service election is done based on class rank. And I graduated in the top 10
[00:20:12] percent of the bottom third of my class. And that was sufficient to get me into the aviation.
[00:20:17] And since I couldn't fly this path, I really wanted to go jets. Sorry guys. I have to admit that.
[00:20:24] But due to, due to my size, and my anthropometric measurements, if I had to punch out,
[00:20:30] I would have left my knees on the glursile of the trainers that I had to tell you.
[00:20:35] That's six four. Yeah. Big. Um, this was, you know, clearly in Jim Web talked about this one.
[00:20:42] He was on the podcast. You know, he's, he was the guy in charge of hanging up the names of the guys
[00:20:47] that have been killed. And, and yet when I had Charlie Plum on who graduated, I think in 64, or he showed
[00:20:53] up in 64, no graduated 64. Vietnam wasn't even on the on the radar. That's right. For them.
[00:21:01] And for you guys, it, you know, 1967, 1968, it had, you know, you had to have known. Okay, I'm going
[00:21:09] to fight in Vietnam. When you walk into Mother B, bankrupt hall, you go into the Routunda,
[00:21:15] which is a very large open area. And when we started losing our former classmates, the graduates,
[00:21:24] I'm sure Jim explained, but you put a poster board up there with the picture out of the lucky bag,
[00:21:30] and a brief bio and not a description, but where they died. And initially, it was just one of these
[00:21:40] twosies, but pretty soon that the March went all the way around the Routunda, and they had to move it
[00:21:45] up into Memorial Hall. And it really brought home the fact that this is, this is serious. This is,
[00:21:55] you know, you're making up your minds, whether or not you wanted to dedicate your lives
[00:22:01] that the defense of this country, and it might come at a considerable cost. And for 44 of our
[00:22:06] brothers, it certainly did. 44 C Wolves didn't make it back. And I'm sort of an emotional guy
[00:22:16] that one of the few times that I've really cried, openly and then I shame itly,
[00:22:25] was it the wall? So you know, seeing a couple of my gunners up there, just really brought it home to me.
[00:22:39] Amazing people, gunners are. So that's what you know you're getting into upon commissioning.
[00:22:50] And so you get commissioned and you graduate in 68, your classes 68, right? And then you go to
[00:22:58] Pensacola Florida. Is that where you go to flight school? That's right. And that's what you
[00:23:06] talk us a little bit through the flight school path. You show up, you learn to fly what a T-38.
[00:23:12] Is that what you learn on? No, you start out on a T-34. And there's, there's been a change in the
[00:23:19] way they, the Instruct Naval Aviators now. When we were going through, you had to do the flight,
[00:23:25] the fixed wing flight syllabus first before you could get into helicopters. And then you go through
[00:23:31] the helicopter, uh, syllabus. And then after that, those of us that got orders to uh, Vietnam,
[00:23:38] would go up to a Fort Rucker. And the Army would, uh, instruct us in tactics in, uh, uh,
[00:23:46] armament systems, uh, they did, they did a good job in propiness. And then send us overseas
[00:23:53] in the rest of it would be done in country. So the, the training that we received along the way
[00:24:00] was, uh, was excellent. But, uh, a lot of it was just like, uh, back at the Academy, they told us
[00:24:06] that, uh, hey guys, the education you receive here at the United States Naval Academy,
[00:24:11] caused the taxpayer approximately $250,000, which was a lot of money back then. And our reply
[00:24:18] was, yeah, but you stick it up our butts in nickel at a time. So, you know, you know,
[00:24:24] had you, so now you're in the pipeline for for helicopters. Had you heard of,
[00:24:30] see, what's at this time? Were, were you hearing about it? Did, is it something that you said,
[00:24:34] oh, I want to go do that? We were just starting to hear about it. And you know, it wasn't, uh,
[00:24:39] that fully developed in my mind. It, uh, that's, uh, where I wanted to go, but it, it quickly became,
[00:24:50] there is a purpose for every element in the military, from the guys who swabs the decks all the
[00:24:58] way on up. But I didn't want to be a bus driver. I didn't want to be a guy who board holes in the
[00:25:04] sky. So, this being a seawolf immediately appealed to me as an opportunity to be able to,
[00:25:16] I don't know, to pay back. It's, it's a funny thing. And I'll jump ahead a little here.
[00:25:22] But, uh, I have a cousin, uh, who is very close to me. She's a like a sister to me.
[00:25:30] And I'd never really thought about questions like you just asked, but after immediately after I got
[00:25:37] back from Vietnam, she was driving me on out to family home in Wallet Creek, California. And without
[00:25:43] taking her eyes off the road, she said, how can you do it? And I thought about that for just a minute
[00:25:50] and said, well, it was pretty easy. I want to over there to bring as many of our guys home safely as I
[00:25:55] could. And in some ways I failed, in some ways I succeeded. But that's it. I was enough of a student
[00:26:06] to understand the domino effect certainly. But that wasn't in my thinking. You know, you're thinking
[00:26:15] sort of, ten yards, ten yards. But in the air, it's a little more expansive. It's, it's the
[00:26:23] guys that you're flying with. The guys in your flat fire team, the guys on your deck, the guys who were
[00:26:28] the maintainers back in, uh, been to me. They're the, uh, they're the guys you think about. And that's why you do it.
[00:26:36] Okay. So, did you get to select? You get done with, um, you get done with the training. Did you get to
[00:26:41] select? Hey, I want to go to the squadron of Vietnam. Uh, pretty much yes. They, they, was there a long
[00:26:48] list for that. They were, they were. They were, they were more volunteers than, uh, then, uh, got
[00:26:53] to sell. I don't know the mechanics of that. I asked where had I got it? And how did that look like
[00:26:59] showing up in Vietnam? I was the, uh, only officer assigned to the C wolves who, uh, took that, uh, reverse
[00:27:11] freedom flight on and disay gone. And I got there and they shuffled me off to the Anapolis Hotel,
[00:27:17] which I thought was a little unusual. But, uh, uh, you know, I had a couple of days to kill because
[00:27:24] there wasn't any transport down to, uh, to Ben and Tui. And I knew, uh, uh, a deer friend of mine,
[00:27:32] who is at, uh, in debt to it, not Bay. And he'd got over the before I did. So, I figured not Bay. That's
[00:27:38] not too far away. I'm going to go visit him. And the next morning, I, uh, check out a 45 put it in my
[00:27:43] gym bag. I'm in civies. They didn't like us roaming around town in onesies, uh, in uniform. So I, uh,
[00:27:51] jumped on a Navy bus out to Nabe. I was having a great time talking to guys at the debt there and
[00:27:56] learn a little about what's going on. And, uh, come stymed to leave. And it's probably about 1630.
[00:28:04] And I say, well, I better get back. And they say, well, you just missed the last bus. But don't worry
[00:28:10] about it. You can take a petty cab. So here I am, uh, brand new in country. I've got the zipper in my, uh,
[00:28:19] on a gym bag open with my hand very close to it. And this, uh, the Vietnamese fellow is peddling away,
[00:28:26] taking me back to the, uh, the hotel. It took us about an hour to get back there. And, uh, I
[00:28:31] jumped him generously because I'm not, uh, light fellow. I was a lot lighter than. But, uh, you know,
[00:28:36] here I am. My first day in country, and I'm going to get greased. So yeah. It tells us, uh, if you wouldn't
[00:28:44] mind, um, some of the, about the formation of the sea wolves, because it's, it's a very cool story
[00:28:49] about the maycon delta, about the way things, the way the enemy moved through the maycon delta
[00:28:56] and through the rung sat special zone. And there was no roads in the only way to get around
[00:29:00] this water. If you want to, maybe expand on that, just so people can kind of get a feel for,
[00:29:04] for what started this whole thing off. Sure. Sure. The, uh, uh, the mecon delta is fed by a, uh,
[00:29:11] waters from the Himalayas. It comes on down and, uh, spreads out into a broad, uh, quasi-oceanic area.
[00:29:20] Basically, it's mud and crap and brown water. And, uh, hence the brown water navy, but it
[00:29:27] didn't irritate. The, uh, there are very few roads that do anything but connect major cities in the
[00:29:36] mecon, uh, back then. And consequently, uh, it's just about all the traffic's moved by, uh, the
[00:29:43] sand pan, uh, or, uh, or junk. And that's the way people got around. The, uh, infiltration that
[00:29:53] the, uh, the, uh, the VC, uh, practice, came my largely either on foot by bicycle or by boat.
[00:30:06] In order to, uh, counteract that, uh, task force. So, uh, one, one six, uh, was, uh, put into place
[00:30:13] game warden was the, uh, the operational mission. And we were there to interject that traffic in personnel,
[00:30:21] ammunition and, uh, food logistics that was moving down into the Delta.
[00:30:28] The, uh, Army had took that mission on first, actually flying off a couple of, uh, uh, LCDs,
[00:30:35] uh, that were, uh, rigged with a, uh, makeshift flight tech. But, uh, that didn't work out too well.
[00:30:41] And, uh, this is not saying anything against the Army, but, uh, in their syllabus, they weren't trained
[00:30:49] on instruments. In Navy, we were rigorously first in, uh, fixed wing and then in helicopters.
[00:30:55] So we were used to flying in the ship and the Navy, uh, and the Army was not. And, and that's,
[00:31:01] that's because the Navy has to fly at sea land on, on boat, on ships. That's right,
[00:31:07] different missions. That's it. Different missions at the time. The, uh, the Army, uh, uh, uh,
[00:31:12] outrew that, but it was, it was painful. They had it had a different mission than we did.
[00:31:16] So, uh, they, uh, uh, they, they had a unit that was assigned to our op-con.
[00:31:25] And they would fly, uh, cover for, uh, for the, uh, small boats. Uh, that was, we're, we're,
[00:31:30] primarily the, uh, PBRs and the swift boats. We didn't see many swift boats up at Benluck.
[00:31:36] Uh, we were working with a P.A.B.R. sailors. Uh, PBR patrol boat river is a 32 foot fiberglass
[00:31:43] luxury boat that was stripped clean and, uh, was highly maneuverable. But it was, uh, I say,
[00:31:52] stripped clean, everything that was non-essential. They were very lightweight, uh, had, uh,
[00:31:59] little armor at all, but they were very heavily armed. And these boats, uh,
[00:32:04] you talk about guys with, uh, brass balls. They'd poke up into, uh, these impossibly narrow
[00:32:12] canals and up, uh, little riverlets, uh, just looking for trouble. And it frequently came their way.
[00:32:20] So the army was, uh, uh, uh, a, uh, a, a, a temp into a work with them there, where all sorts of, uh,
[00:32:25] a minor operational, uh, problemist overcome, uh, who's calling out the missions, uh, uh, uh,
[00:32:31] what, uh, the support area is, it's just wasn't working well. So the Navy decided that, uh,
[00:32:37] we needed a Navy squadron and they turned to HC1, the fleet angels, uh, to put, put a few deaths in place,
[00:32:48] to help provide cover for the, uh, the brown water navy and by brown water navy, I mean the,
[00:32:53] uh, small boat guys, the seals, any Navy, navy, uh, uh, uh, vessel that was down in the, uh, in the,
[00:33:00] in the me column. And, uh, it wasn't working well with the, uh, the army HC1 picked it up,
[00:33:09] but started working very well, uh, because they understood the Navy's mission much better than the army,
[00:33:16] and they were, uh, equipped with the, uh, capabilities to fly both at night and in bad weather.
[00:33:23] And, uh, I don't know if you've been in monsoon before, but it's shitty fluttering.
[00:33:31] It is pretty worth it. It's really bad. So, uh, as you've already mentioned, on April Fool's Day,
[00:33:39] in uh, 67, uh, they decided that the, uh, in country squadron was, uh, required and, uh, that
[00:33:47] responsibility was shifted from HC1 to Hal-3. Uh, we grew to having nine, nine detachments,
[00:33:55] uh, that were scattered throughout the Delta to, uh, give us a quick reaction time to virtually,
[00:34:00] uh, any, any area in the me column. And, uh, each detachment had, uh, two aircraft assigned.
[00:34:07] It had, uh, uh, two full crews for each aircraft, and that was about it. But let me, let me give you a
[00:34:15] little info on, uh, the noble UH1 Bravo. I love that aircraft. It was a piece of crap.
[00:34:24] It really was, but it, uh, got us out of, uh, out of a lot of trouble every time we flew it.
[00:34:30] And just for people that are listening, that's the classic Vietnam Huey aircraft. That's, that's what
[00:34:37] you see. That's what you see in movies. That's it. Yeah. There really was sort of a, uh,
[00:34:43] Michaels Navy, uh, that, uh, K, K, K, K, that was attached to the sea wolves. Uh, the, the army was just
[00:34:52] getting rid of their Bravo models to go to this, uh, two of the Charlie's, which had, uh, several
[00:34:58] hundred, uh, greater horsepower, a more maneuverable, a blah, blah, blah, and they had, uh, some old
[00:35:04] Bravo sitting around and rather than shipping them back to the Boneyard or destroying them in place,
[00:35:09] they gave them to the Navy. So frequently, we had a lot of rebuilding to do before, uh, we, uh,
[00:35:14] turn these guys loose, but God bless the army. They gave us, uh, the, they gave us our, uh, our aircraft.
[00:35:23] Support for the Bravo and the Navy chain was not the best. So you've, uh, it's easy to say
[00:35:30] begbar or steal, uh, borrowers steal is what we did quite well. Quite well. Our guys were
[00:35:38] incredible. We, uh, achieved grab a couple of guys and go out and come back with exactly what we
[00:35:44] needed. And you don't ask a question about that. You, you just put it into play. Uh, so, uh, the, uh,
[00:35:53] the nine deaths to helicopters in each, uh, each, uh, Huey was, uh, basically configured with two
[00:35:59] seven shot rocket pods, uh, 2.75 folding thin aerial rockets. We had, uh, a pair of, uh, 60s
[00:36:08] that were mounted with a flex gun, the copilot control those, but the, uh, the thing that really
[00:36:14] made us, uh, uh, unique and powerful was our door gunners. When I first got there and just, just for,
[00:36:23] a very short period of time, our door gunners were still firing 60s from the shoulder. And
[00:36:29] that, uh, that was just an incredibly powerful tool in keeping the bad guys heads down during our
[00:36:37] break and, uh, prepping the area for the next aircraft to, uh, to roll in. So we typically have, uh,
[00:36:44] door gunner on, uh, one side, on the other side if we were lucky, uh, uh, 50. Uh, eventually this
[00:36:52] group, uh, got, uh, some miniguns, most of all of our, uh, dead birds eventually, uh, had, uh, miniguns
[00:36:59] and the guys in the back would, uh, fly them and it, uh, did wonders for, uh, keeping, uh, keeping heads
[00:37:05] down as did the, uh, 50 cows that, uh, that we had. Uh, uh, when we went from shoulder here, uh,
[00:37:12] held 60s to, uh, there's a lesson there. Our guys would, uh, it wasn't unusual to see them standing out
[00:37:20] on the skids firing, uh, cover for us. That was a great good thing, but it also, uh, resulted in
[00:37:29] brassing, uh, the uh, sink elevator and the, uh, uh, uh, it just wasn't really, really acceptable. If you
[00:37:37] brass a tail rotor, you'll know about it. It's a rough ride going back in, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, they decided
[00:37:43] that, no, we can't have that. And, uh, sort of tied the gunner's hands by, uh, putting what they called a
[00:37:49] pussy pole in the, uh, in the, in the door and, uh, mounted the, uh, the 62. Well, the guys got, uh, more
[00:37:57] than a little incentive, and decided that, uh, if one 60s good, it would be better, and mounted two,
[00:38:05] one, uh, yeah, here we go again, Hayden, thanks. Yeah, but uh, mounted, uh, two sixties there,
[00:38:13] and found out that they were brassing the, uh, the tail rotor still. So what they did was,
[00:38:19] they rotated each 90 degrees in a, uh, opposing directions, and all of a sudden, uh, the brassing was
[00:38:27] no longer, uh, much of a problem. To essentially the same with, uh, with our 50s, uh, they, uh, mounted
[00:38:33] that so that it, uh, would, uh, uh, fire, uh, 90 degrees, uh, longitudinally, and that was a, uh, a very
[00:38:40] powerful weapon for not only, uh, uh, keeping, uh, keeping guys down, but also, uh, gave us a, uh, a great
[00:38:49] degree of flexibility in the, in the, in the break. And perhaps I should explain, uh, that by the break,
[00:38:56] uh, we typically would fly in a, uh, in the wagon wheel type, uh, uh, type approach, uh, two helicopters,
[00:39:03] uh, roughly, uh, flying, uh, 180 out from, uh, one another. So one is, uh, rolling in on the target,
[00:39:11] as the other is coming around behind it. So when you then break off the target, the next helicopter
[00:39:18] is in their, uh, laying down its fire. And, uh, that, uh, 50 would, would really help us out in both,
[00:39:28] uh, identifying problem areas and taking care of the problem. Yeah, that's a great, uh, a great
[00:39:36] background and, and you know, even when you watch, um, uh, scrambled to see wolves, the just, uh,
[00:39:43] all the footage is just, un, it's unbelievable footage of the way you guys were flying and what the
[00:39:48] gunners were doing gunners hanging out and shooting underneath the bird back in the other direction,
[00:39:54] yeah, who, hanging out by a gunners belt, um, they might have invented the term gunners belt.
[00:40:00] Yeah, I, I was, I go ahead. There, there, there's a, there's a right of passage that, uh, most of the,
[00:40:09] uh, FNG's got. And when I was in that FNG seat, I learned it one dark and stormy night.
[00:40:17] We're flying along in the, and the, the hack, the aircraft commanded,
[00:40:21] diverted my attention off to the left. And when I turned back,
[00:40:26] right here in the window of the Huey was one of my gunners who had moaning me.
[00:40:33] Yeah. So hey, this is gonna be fun.
[00:40:39] That and the, the other was, uh, if, if you were new to the debt as a pilot,
[00:40:45] you were gonna get a colorful brass. Oh. And it was really easy for them to do when they had the
[00:40:51] free guns, uh, I think I got a little more in the front of the later on.
[00:40:55] Ah, that, that's, that's freaking dangerous. It is smart.
[00:41:02] So speaking of fun, one of the, one of the things, uh, I pulled off of the website, um,
[00:41:08] C Wolf dot org is you guys had this thing that you called the Wolf Graham, which was sort of,
[00:41:14] sort of like a sit rep for all the, all the different elements that were out there. And I think
[00:41:20] it paints a pretty good picture of the overall attitude. And I pulled out one of the clips,
[00:41:25] and I'm just gonna read it. So this is your debt debt for, from beautiful downtown Ben Luck.
[00:41:32] The fog cutters of debt for would like to wish everyone a merry monsoon season. Only 10 shopping
[00:41:37] days left. We'd better start with Lieutenant J. G. Who? Why before we forget him. Everyone else has.
[00:41:43] He, uh, he, uh, he, though he was leaving in May, but you, for God to assign a new duty station,
[00:41:51] admin forgot to request a flight booking for him. And operations forgot to inform him that this,
[00:41:55] that his F.T.L. papers had been signed, but we're sure we'll finally, but we're sure things
[00:42:02] will finally turn around for what's his name. Lieutenant Deacon Johnson left on R and R to Hawaii,
[00:42:09] and Lieutenant J. G. Rookie Rich. Uh, can't read the name, par, par, farmer, farmer. Yeah,
[00:42:16] farmer was called into straight now at Ben Toy. Ben Toei, cutting us two, three F.T.L.s and
[00:42:25] Anax. Commander Hammond will still have to fly every day, even after the Deacon gets back.
[00:42:31] Boku map as Lieutenant Johnson is referred to by Mama Son won't be much good for anything
[00:42:37] after coming back from Hawaii. Rookie Rich is talent for hiding should be of great value in Ben Toei.
[00:42:44] Lieutenant J. G. Check Carlos Steel has opened a chain of combination taco stand slash minigun
[00:42:53] exchange outlets with branches in Kuchi, Tan Tan Ann and Ben Luck with others soon to be opening
[00:43:01] long bin ving long and via TN. Lieutenant J. G. Weird Harold Black is still looking for his
[00:43:08] mysteriously vanishing M60 bolts. latest debt for basketball casualty was Lieutenant J. G. Buckett's
[00:43:16] coffee named after his golden touch on the court who got four stitches in his head after going
[00:43:23] for a rebound, who will it be in April? Three additions arrived this past month, Lieutenant Tom
[00:43:29] Rebolla and Lieutenant J. G. Denny Rally, which is user, our new in-country and Lieutenant J. G. Bill
[00:43:37] Belts was shafted shifted from debt eight. Oh well with TV booze and all the attractions of the
[00:43:44] big city, what more could you want? As one of our departed pilots used to say, going home is for
[00:43:50] cices. So and you guys, these are all of I. They're fantastic to read. I read that to my buddy Dave
[00:43:58] Burke, where I sent I sent him a copy of it and he said that's the best set rep I've ever read in my life.
[00:44:05] So you guys had, you know, it's it's good because you know, I always talk and and and every
[00:44:11] vet that comes on here, we kind of talk about how we have fun and that shows that and I guess getting
[00:44:18] mooned through your side window also shows that you guys are having fun. I don't know if the
[00:44:23] hot brass is fun, but you guys were having a great time and you guys were making it fun and at the
[00:44:30] same time man, it was very intense and very dangerous. One of the things that, you know, you, you
[00:44:38] kind of threw it out there, you said, hey, we put these debts all over the place so we could have
[00:44:42] a quick response time. And what that meant was you guys were spread out in these debts so that you
[00:44:48] could get two guys on the ground within a matter of minutes. Tell me about that up tempo and what
[00:44:55] it was like when they scrambled the seawelfs. Well, we had two full crews for each one of our two birds
[00:45:05] and what that meant was you were 12 hours on 12 hours off 365 24 whatever.
[00:45:13] In order to support the the Brownwater Navy, when they got in the ship, they needed us right away
[00:45:23] and we could literally get off the deck in about three minutes and that put us out there
[00:45:31] quickly enough that we could probably get them out of trouble. The worst thing that could
[00:45:36] happen to them in my estimation other than losing someone is losing their engine because then they
[00:45:44] were just out there with they were a grape. No place to go so all they could do is just absorb the
[00:45:53] the incoming and with that in mind what we would do is go on out and try and first get their heads down
[00:46:02] and then two start working the target. We had a very close relationship with the the PBR sailors,
[00:46:11] very close. Those guys were sticking their backs out every day and the times they got in trouble
[00:46:19] we were happy to go and try and extricate them no matter what.
[00:46:25] But one of the great quotes that I saw in the in the history that I was reviewing is the first
[00:46:33] contact that H.C. one made the two boats had gone out on patrol and it stumbled across a
[00:46:42] battalion size element with about 80 sand pans and junks that were trying to cross a river
[00:46:48] and the boats came under obviously intense fire. When they see the sea walls got there a couple of
[00:46:56] minutes after this the incoming fire team lead contacts the chief of the boat and says
[00:47:06] where do you want to put in our strike and he said something like hell. I want you boys to go in there
[00:47:13] and hold field day on those guys and that's where the attitude it is it's an overused term
[00:47:24] but it's a brotherhood it truly is we do anything for those guys they were putting it all out
[00:47:31] did you guys pre-brief with them for missions or how did you figure that out on how did you figure it out
[00:47:41] so did you know where they were going did you know what their target was did they pre-breef you
[00:47:46] unfortunately we had intelligence that was to put a kindly generally a piece of crap it wasn't
[00:47:54] very good for a number of reasons for a number of reasons but what we do is we talked to the guys
[00:48:00] on the boats we know what the tactical situation was in the away and we would know where they were going
[00:48:09] and what they were doing that is going out for a bunker or you are doing an insert with seals
[00:48:16] we'd get that information from the team that was there actually we didn't have a team it was
[00:48:24] just a squad but we'd share the information so we've know about where they were going
[00:48:31] and what we do as soon as we got airborne is head for the the pre-breef spot and then get update the info
[00:48:40] in route so that by the time we got there we knew that where the fire was coming from what the situation
[00:48:46] was with the boats and where we were likely to put in our first strike so the deconfliction as far
[00:48:52] as where you were shooting in friendly fire and all that was I mean as long as as long as they tell you
[00:48:58] hey north north side of the river or something like that is that how you would deconflict and did you
[00:49:03] when you were supporting ground troops how the hell did you know who was who down there we'd
[00:49:07] buy have them pop smoke and that generally worked but the worst thing that could happen is when you say
[00:49:14] pop red and one shows up right where you expected and one shows up a hundred meters on down
[00:49:21] yeah so the bad guys had our head are freaks and I don't know if they had our freaks or not
[00:49:31] but they could certainly see a smoke and they'd pop it also right same one and that could
[00:49:37] create a little confusion but it also gave us a locus points that we could talk to the guys on the
[00:49:44] boats and they could direct our fire and one thing that's important about that the 2.75
[00:49:53] holding in the area rocket was a great tool I didn't like it much because it wasn't all that
[00:50:04] uncommon to have one of the the fins not open properly and then it just goes squirrely and go
[00:50:11] anywhere if you had the aircraft trimmed up it could be an effective weapon but I didn't like to
[00:50:18] use it too far out because that gave it more of an opportunity to develop a mind of its own
[00:50:27] I use it more as a as a close-end weapon so these the you'd be sitting in your in your
[00:50:34] hooch or whatever and you'd be standing by it was your 12-hour shift and then all of a sudden the
[00:50:41] radio call would come in they tell you guys go what was the procedure like from there
[00:50:47] Aswell's an elbows out to the aircraft the one of the other crews first first guy there would be
[00:50:54] suddenly the aircraft was pre-coct but they'd go ahead and set the rockets up for us and
[00:51:07] jump in hit the button and go you every I think that it's safe to say that practically
[00:51:17] every operational mission that we flew we took off over max gross weight you'd pull it up enough
[00:51:25] to get it out of the revotment and get it out there and what we do when we were really seriously
[00:51:33] overweight is just sort of inch it ahead and get a little forward momentum on the helicopter
[00:51:40] and then drop the collective which puts all the weight down on the skids and spread the skids
[00:51:45] and then pop it up a little and the aircraft would be slingshot up to oh about three feet and
[00:51:53] then you know hopefully you'll get across the B-40 fence at the end of the end of the runway
[00:51:58] it was colorful but had to do it in order to carry an affordance to get guys on the trouble
[00:52:07] then I mean when we were in Iraq we always felt like the helicopters which win
[00:52:13] Ramadi the helicopters they wouldn't really fly over the city of Ramadi because it was there was too
[00:52:18] dangerous for them the couple times that they came in it was like it was like a just massive
[00:52:26] machine gun fire at them and they didn't really enjoy that too much but you guys were just
[00:52:33] so my point is that helicopters and actually vehicles as well they're like bullet magnets right
[00:52:39] everywhere you see a helicopter come in the enemy just sees that and focuses on it you guys must
[00:52:44] have you had to be taking fire all the time yeah all the time you get used to it yeah
[00:52:52] what am I gonna say remind me of a the first time that we saw a 51 cal coming at us it was
[00:53:01] night and these things you know it's a big as a basketball it's as big as a freaking basketball coming
[00:53:08] up at you yeah it started to see the pressures come up at it and he says damn you did the right thing
[00:53:15] I said yeah and he said where the collective immediately got down on the deck and then
[00:53:23] came around and we could could adjust but those things are frightening oh yeah that's cut it goes with
[00:53:30] the turf you're 20 years old that was 23 at the time and it's you think the mission you think
[00:53:39] the the pride that you take in the guys and the the pride they take in you and it's frightening you know
[00:53:47] there's there I was terrified at times I think we all were that you you get by that you get by
[00:53:55] that you think about the guys down there who are really in the ship and it's easy to apply what
[00:54:02] you know tactically and get the job done that's that's another thing that that's why I was kind
[00:54:07] of asking you about meeting with the guys in the ground because you guys are doing this and I'm
[00:54:13] sure in some situations you'd never met the people that were down there and you're still risking
[00:54:17] your lives to go in there and give them the support that they need yeah that's what we did
[00:54:26] there's a there's a counter intuitive thing to to helicopters that you just mentioned which is
[00:54:31] when you're getting shot at from the ground if you get lower it takes away some of their
[00:54:36] field of fire right right so so you would think oh there's someone shooting it be I'm going to
[00:54:40] get up and go away when the reality is if you get lower you know that that person there's going to
[00:54:46] be trees or whatever terrain features in between that's kind of take a little bit of time too
[00:54:51] to get your instincts going in that direction yeah it certainly does but it's amazing how quick
[00:54:59] those instincts are developed when you got somebody shooting that you and then the maintenance
[00:55:05] crews the birds are I saw pictures of birds they were just like look like they've been used for
[00:55:11] target practice yeah coming back you go watch that movie a scramble the sea well it looks like
[00:55:15] target practice was used that's what they were using the birds for target practice that's what
[00:55:18] some of them look like and the maintenance crews were just they they said they were making
[00:55:24] patches from beer cans that's true that's true and the guys were proud of that and the
[00:55:32] the patch that was a beer cam would not be painted over generally yeah no and there's one
[00:55:40] thing that I want to say and this is going to sound like a one trick pony in my love the gunners
[00:55:46] but those guys not only fired the weapons they service the weapons they service the the
[00:55:55] helicopters they performed all the daylies they were all qualified plane captains they kept
[00:56:01] that thing up and running for us so that we could walk out with our silkscars and strap the
[00:56:07] thing on and take them out to where they needed to be in order to get the job done no we're not
[00:56:13] air force we don't believe in silkscars I'm sorry air force brother and then so you're doing this
[00:56:24] this is a crazy opt-temp operational tempo of 12 on 12 off 365 days yeah that's insane
[00:56:31] you get used to it you know it's funny I mean you got you got eight hours asleep okay
[00:56:39] then you got four hours to eat and then the other 12 hours you're on standby to go fly into
[00:56:43] into gun battles I got for 365 days yeah I got nervous though when I wasn't flying you know a
[00:56:49] decent aviator wants to fly and it's hard sometimes it's sitting around waiting for your turn
[00:56:56] we played and lifted a lot of weight a lot of volleyball the played volleyball with and against
[00:57:04] the the seals and sometimes the boat drivers it just it was uh 50 meters from the from the aircraft
[00:57:13] and I kept this uh kept this right there so we could respond quickly and then um how often were
[00:57:19] you guys doing casualty evacuation only when needed yeah yeah it it it wasn't a primary mission
[00:57:26] of ours if somebody got shot up and uh needed to lift out the town we'd provide that and occasionally
[00:57:33] we'd uh get a call that uh someone was uh wounded and uh we'd go out and pick him up but generally
[00:57:41] that was a job that was done by some certifiable idiots that I love the uh the dust soft pilots
[00:57:49] you got uh 2019 20 year old kids that are out there given the keys to uh a mazorati
[00:57:56] Chris this was only a Huey but still you get the idea they were crazy they'd fly into
[00:58:01] into anything I had really goes off to them because uh uh they'd fly into areas where they
[00:58:07] shouldn't that's another thing I talked about um with uh Colonel Bill Reader who is on this podcast
[00:58:15] and same thing I mean he just said that the pilots back then and maybe it's because the aircraft
[00:58:21] were uh very inexpensive compared to the you know to what they flying nowadays they they don't
[00:58:27] want to risk the aircraft now but he said he's got they would just fly into like it was it
[00:58:32] hey your your your your aircraft is just gonna get hit that's the way it's gonna be
[00:58:36] yeah deal with it yeah and if you ever got to get the opportunity to read uh the uh some of the
[00:58:44] citation for the congressional metal for uh these are hellow pilots it's it's incredible what they did
[00:58:52] now what I was and I always on this show give the uh same praise that you give to the machine gunners
[00:59:00] because the machine gunners in in a ground combat it's the machine gunners that are going
[00:59:04] to allow you to be able to maneuver and get away from a situation um or maneuver towards you know
[00:59:10] they're gonna allow you to move and same thing with with your gunners and what they were doing
[00:59:15] so you had a gunner on each side that would protect the flanks that's right one of them on either
[00:59:22] a 60 or a dual 60 and the other one on a 50 cow generally or eventually a minigun oh and then
[00:59:31] you guys got the minigun yes I will in I looked at there was a real real fast flash on the screen
[00:59:38] in scrambled to see wolves there's a minigun and it's actually it's upside down you can't I had
[00:59:43] to pause it to read it it said um the Lord giveeth and the minigun take it away
[00:59:51] yeah it was a formidable weapon for uh close closer support yeah for people that don't know what a
[00:59:59] minigun is it fires it fires what 5,000 rounds a minute I mean it's absolutely ridiculous what it's
[01:00:06] yes I don't know what the rate is but it's it gets your attention yeah and it just it's powered
[01:00:12] it's it's powered it's electrically powered so it it actually feeds the ammunition faster than
[01:00:17] then then a normal mechanical weapon could fire but it just it's crazy how much and how many
[01:00:25] rounds I think it's 5,000 something like that it's a ridiculous hell and then you guys got those
[01:00:30] so those were on your birds while you were on deployment that's right yeah as far as the
[01:00:35] the minigun goes you know it doesn't go bang bang bang it goes a buzz at the rate of fire is
[01:00:40] phenomenal and they uh the gunners loved it but you know there's a little John Wayne in all of us
[01:00:45] and I think every one of them would like to go back to the yeah to the free guns one thing
[01:00:52] that I do want to point out is that uh we were not very well equipped so when we were up and around
[01:01:00] you know un-prol or or actually after engaged and had to fly into a gas up and a
[01:01:10] rearm we'd go into an army base because the army had all the fuel and they had nails
[01:01:19] the 2.75 makes a boom but if you can load it with flischets you can really keep the enemy down
[01:01:27] so we'd go on up there depending on the tactical situation if we had a cause it's a
[01:01:36] anti-personnel something developing on the ground we'd we'd load up there and that's where I
[01:01:42] saw my first cobra the snake was an impressive aircraft it was so much it had so much more fire
[01:01:50] power than any one of our huies but where do you put the gunners you know it's for an half-seeding
[01:01:58] they don't have any suppression for a rolling off target other than your wingman and it
[01:02:06] just you know it was intriguing but it just didn't make sense to me do I remember this correctly
[01:02:11] that at one point you're whoever the commander was at the time got offered hey you guys want some
[01:02:17] cobras and the answer was no we we we need to stick with the US I'd heard that story I don't
[01:02:21] don't know whether it's true or not yet yeah yeah we like that but you know one of the guys you
[01:02:26] mentioned in the wolf gram and I will mention his name Chuck Steely up check was quite a guy
[01:02:34] and he would go out on to requisition parts for us at the time the army had a contractor
[01:02:45] dielectron that was doing the uh the work on their aircraft and you know they're bored out of
[01:02:51] their skull when they don't have anything to work on so they got a loach and started rebuilding it
[01:02:58] from spare parts from here and there and got it to be fully functional and you know it to have an
[01:03:05] observation helicopter like that to go out and snooping poop with us that would be incredible
[01:03:11] Chuck engineered a deal where a for a refrigerator full of beer they'd give us this aircraft you know
[01:03:20] it was written off the rolls they'd there because but you know they'd said hey if you have a
[01:03:25] problem let us know we'll come down take care of it I I like to think that Chuck was unplugging
[01:03:33] our refrigerator when the dead Owen C came in and not just know but hell no but yeah that's sort
[01:03:40] of thing was not unusual over there yeah God bus Chuck he did did everybody a lot of great
[01:03:46] service the uh the speaking of beer apparently the the wolf on the seawolf insignias somehow
[01:03:54] based on the low and brow beer can that's what they saw allegedly that's what they said
[01:03:59] I can either confirm or deny you know strangely enough I didn't drink much beer at all when
[01:04:05] I was over there because uh they they seemed to treat it with something that just put the taste off
[01:04:11] we all thought it was formaldehyde that was the the going rumor but man they told us that
[01:04:18] going I was in go on my first deployment they told us the same thing yeah that there was from
[01:04:22] aldehyde that rumor has been that rumor survived from 1969 to uh 1992 and I was on my first deployment
[01:04:30] there was from aldehyde in the beer but how did the beer taste awful and I kept trying to see
[01:04:35] if I could make it taste better but I didn't succeed there's so some of the stuff that you're talking
[01:04:42] about you know from a leadership perspective you got you got guys that are risking their lives
[01:04:49] every time that call comes how how did you did you see guys that's that got to a point
[01:04:57] when they couldn't take it anymore did you did you have situations where you had to send guys back
[01:05:01] to the rear um what did you do when you saw guy kind of start to start to get to nervous to go
[01:05:11] uh this may sound self-serving but I don't care I didn't see anyone in the aldehyde
[01:05:18] and I did not see directly anyone who behaved in a cowardly manner an over cautious manner
[01:05:26] we didn't have anyone that uh was sent back to the to the rear there was a camaraderie that you
[01:05:34] just can't explain to somebody who hasn't enjoyed it it's uh it's an honor to serve with people like that
[01:05:41] and we all took pride in our reputations among our our squadron mates so it wasn't hard to go
[01:05:52] and and that was so clear it when you watch scramble to see wolves it's so clear
[01:05:59] and there's this incredible um they you can see the camaraderie and you can hear it when you
[01:06:05] read through the the the wolf grams you can see that guys are having a good time and there's this
[01:06:10] I mean what what I would consider and you can tell me if I'm wrong but like a peer pressure of
[01:06:17] hey we're gonna we're gonna we're gonna we're gonna do this you know I've I've often
[01:06:22] said that when you get to a good seal platoon it's not a team it's not a platoon it's like a gang
[01:06:29] that you're a it's a gang and we just don't allow for that bad attitude to creep out yeah yeah I
[01:06:41] feel the same way about the uh the uh C wolves and this might be a bad good time to uh share with you
[01:06:49] the fact that uh I at one time after a returning from Vietnam was so fed up with the mission that we were
[01:06:58] flying it was an aging aircraft it didn't have systems that were required to do the job the the uh
[01:07:04] job itself uh was not that important and you know you come from living on a dream adrenaline for
[01:07:12] a year and then come back and uh you're expected to add an old figuratively put your boots up
[01:07:19] on the table one day I got so pissed off the middle of the morning I uh jumped in my Corvette
[01:07:27] remember that uh hey I learned I learned jumped in my Corvette and uh uh Toran up to uh Coronado
[01:07:36] and two of the seals that we operated with friends uh were there and I walked into the office they
[01:07:42] had their LSDs pulled up face to face and I said guys I've had it I want to join up
[01:07:50] and they looked at each other and they locked up their secret and each of them grabbed me by an elbow
[01:07:55] and took me up to the little club in Coronado and we started pounding beers that tasted great
[01:08:01] no formaldehyde there and by the middle of the afternoon they'd convinced me that uh uh being a
[01:08:08] a peacetime seal uh wasn't uh everything that uh that I would expect and that they uh the
[01:08:15] navy had put an awful lot of investment into making me what I was and I could make them far better
[01:08:20] contribution by continuing to fly and I uh I turned my back on my opportunity to find out
[01:08:29] whether I had what it takes to become a seal I'm surprised that those guys um um well I'm surprised
[01:08:38] they didn't talk you into it those must've been surprised they must've I was surprised once they
[01:08:43] got enough beer to them they didn't have you down it down at buds with a log of sand over your head
[01:08:48] is there any particular missions in when you were in Vietnam that that stand out as you know one
[01:08:56] of the ones on scramble sea wolves that they talked about this was absolutely ridiculous they're talking
[01:09:02] about the the the helicopter was the helicopters were there supporting a unit on the ground
[01:09:07] there was no one to relieve them um they needed more fuel they were running out of fuel the fuel
[01:09:13] it's on they're still no one to no one to relieve the helicopters and provide support they say you
[01:09:18] know what screw it we're just gonna stay until we run out of gas and that's and that's what they did
[01:09:25] they stayed until they ran out of gas the other group came in they used ammo cans to refuel
[01:09:32] to to carry once the fire on the ground had subsided they used ammo cans to refuel the
[01:09:38] helicopters that were out of fuel so they could get back to base that's freaking crazy
[01:09:46] you know we never really took time to think about whether it was crazy or not you got a job to do
[01:09:53] and you know that that's probably natural way to to explain it that was the job you went out
[01:10:01] and did that because that's what was expected that's what the guys on the in the boats expected
[01:10:07] of you that's what the uh the seal team that we had uh the seals that we had operate out and
[01:10:12] been like expected and when they call you you go you know that's another thing I think is really
[01:10:20] impressive about the seawolfs is well first of all they took volunteers to go to the job and like
[01:10:26] you said a bunch of people volunteered but the other thing is and and I heard some of the vets talking
[01:10:32] about the some of the seawolf vets talking about the fact that they'd say oh I was in the navy and I was
[01:10:36] you know in the ship and Vietnam people said are you or in the navy or in the ship but the reality is
[01:10:42] people you wouldn't I can't imagine that there was any of the gunners that when they joined the navy
[01:10:49] they thought to themselves what I'm gonna be is a door gunner and direct combat with the enemy
[01:10:54] these are guys that were joined the navy for whatever reason and they end up in that job
[01:11:00] where you know they're doing this day in day out and risking their life day in day out not
[01:11:07] not really what they signed up for and yet they held the line over and over and over again all of them
[01:11:12] volunteers yeah yeah it's it it it it it it it it humbles me to have been able to uh to operate with
[01:11:22] guys like that and you know I the pilot's yeah the pilot's brass balls it was expected it was the job
[01:11:33] the gunners had those balls and then some because they kept us up uh kept the aircraft up kept the
[01:11:39] systems up I had a leadership lesson when I first got there uh that grown up my dad you know he weed
[01:11:48] hunting fish and I uh it fired our we had two uh 14's for each bird they hung on the back
[01:11:58] of the pilot's seat and I taken one on out we had a little makeshift range and uh fired it
[01:12:03] and brought it back on in after I was done and took it in to the crew area to clean it
[01:12:11] you would have thought that I had just stepped on a baby rabbit I mean it was more it was
[01:12:20] plight it was respectful but give me that thing yeah and the guys had that feeling about uh the
[01:12:28] armament you know it this this is my job this I do this so you know it took a little getting used to
[01:12:34] it was easier to let him clean my 45 then uh I just kind of want to you know when you're when
[01:12:45] you're there um you you start to get to know these guys really well and I don't you didn't
[01:12:51] loot you didn't have anyone killed from your debt while you were there is that correct that's correct
[01:12:57] but obviously other guys in other deaths were killed while you were there did you guys have any
[01:13:04] kind of and this is something I've talked about before is Americans and I think it's just um
[01:13:09] because we have so many different cultures here we don't have a good protocol to deal with to deal
[01:13:15] with death and you know other cultures around the world if someone dies you know you do this for a
[01:13:22] day you do this for a day you say this prayer you you go through this ceremony and then you move on
[01:13:26] and Americans we have so many different cultures here that are all mixed together and death isn't
[01:13:30] something that happens all the time so we really don't know a lot of times hey what am I supposed to
[01:13:35] do and I think that's what that's what causes people problems is they don't know they don't know
[01:13:40] how to handle it they don't not put closure on it and so it just kind of sticks around when you guys
[01:13:45] would learn that that someone in your debt had been killed what was there any protocol that you guys
[01:13:50] set up was there anything that you guys did to to try and take that on board and then move past it
[01:13:57] I probably missed out on a leadership opportunity and when guys got killed uh and other deaths
[01:14:05] in combat or even just uh ferrying an aircraft in for maintenance I didn't sit down with the guys
[01:14:13] and talk about it I internalized it and being Irish would reflect on all the good times we had
[01:14:25] didn't think about uh what what went wrong didn't want to know initially you know eventually you
[01:14:32] do because it's important for uh for your trade that uh I just think about the good times that we
[01:14:40] we shared together I lost a couple of the catamacross classmates I lost some great friends that I
[01:14:45] made while I was in country uh when you unfelling I don't want to mention any names but he and I were
[01:14:53] both bicyclists and the one thing that he wanted to do when he got back home was build himself
[01:15:00] the pre-mo bike and uh start to start competing and he never got that opportunity
[01:15:09] and when you when you personalize something like that when you think about the opportunities that
[01:15:15] are lost in a heartbeat it makes you very thankful to be alive it makes you very thankful of
[01:15:25] the two of known that person and it makes you feel like you should redouble your efforts to get
[01:15:32] the sons of bitches that took that life away from them. If that you can help focus your aggression
[01:15:39] and that's a good thing. Yeah no doubt about it and that was um I guess my way again I was uneducated
[01:15:46] no never taught me but one thing I did is okay we're gonna go to work that's the thing that I
[01:15:53] knew how to do that's what I still know how to do is like go to work and you know there's I guess
[01:15:58] you could say there's some uh you know eventually you got to you got to deal with it you got to
[01:16:04] uh feel it more in the future but man when I was overseas it's like yeah okay we're gonna work
[01:16:11] and and that's where the focus becomes because you know and also from my perspective it's like
[01:16:15] you know your guys that's what they would want you to do that's what they would want you to do
[01:16:22] so let me let me share something with you based upon what your guys would want you to do
[01:16:28] came home from a mission uh uh one night we were in contact and you know you're you're decompressing
[01:16:37] and I walk up to my rack and there's this Manila envelope for Lieutenant J.G. Rally's eyes only
[01:16:43] and I feel oh no somebody back on the back home is died and I opened this thing up with trembling hands
[01:16:51] and pulled out and it's a standard navy message and I said hi honey I'm gonna be in
[01:16:57] Tanzanute in three days time come on up in uh and see me uh Sean's mom the love of my life
[01:17:06] call signs stinky there's gonna have anything to do with uh personal problems it's a matter of attitude
[01:17:13] yeah that uh she was a flight attendant for Branough and she was flying freedom birds in and out
[01:17:18] and she had one coming in Ben Lex only about uh 40 clicks south of uh SIGON
[01:17:24] and okay and you know word immediately spread like wildfires throughout the debt
[01:17:31] and my guy is a god bless of these left in a sandbagged bunker or or enlisted crew
[01:17:40] and it was normally pretty ripe but it was also the only place that was really uh that had a
[01:17:46] little bit of privacy well they had determined that I was going to bring stinky on down uh for lunch
[01:17:52] I picked her up in Tanzanute and bring her on down so they had that place spit shot I don't know
[01:17:59] they did it if it was already it turned out to be a bit of a disappointment uh we uh flew a
[01:18:07] flu helicopter on up to Tanzanute and you know we're going over uh bad guy country so uh it
[01:18:12] was armed and I land the thing in front of I know I didn't land it I wasn't flying it but we
[01:18:19] landed in front of the uh the terminal there at uh Tanzanute and uh immediately this air force truck
[01:18:25] comes on out with its cherry top going and this uh this sergeant says you can't land here
[01:18:31] and I put it out to him that we already had and that we're just waiting for uh uh the arrival
[01:18:36] and uh we solve the problem by saying uh listen this aircraft is armed what did you stay here
[01:18:42] and watch it for us and uh we'll just be a little while so we walked on over this big old green
[01:18:48] brand of jet comes on in and and everybody gets off and you know the incoming guys aren't nearly
[01:18:55] as gay and festive as he out going guys so uh they get off and uh there's a gale standing up at
[01:19:01] the top of the ladder just waving that me so turns out she came get off the aircraft but they didn't
[01:19:07] see anything about us getting on so uh you know my crew goes on up the uh the ladder and we're
[01:19:13] in there and gales and elucin into uh the other uh sturdises and they're loving it and uh we go to
[01:19:20] the back of the aircraft and sat there for 45 minutes just talking with each other but when we got back
[01:19:28] and gale wasn't there the the guys were just crest falling they were so excited about having
[01:19:35] somebody there and you know they I don't think the place was ever cleaned again but that was my
[01:19:45] experience of dating my hometown honey in the zone yeah then uh what was it like um was it standard
[01:19:55] Vietnam where just replacements would come when it was time for a guy to rotate out a new guy would
[01:19:59] show up pretty much like I mentioned earlier I was sort of kind of drift at the uh an apple
[01:20:06] of so tell and happened to run into uh got weird Harold who you referenced in that wolf gram
[01:20:12] he uh came just walking through uh with uh the uh death 401c uh Colonel Hammond we
[01:20:19] called him currently was a navy commander and uh uh Dave introduced us and said hey this is a great
[01:20:27] guy we should have him and as a turns out they had an opening and uh within a matter of a few days
[01:20:33] I was in debt four so it uh it was sort of a role your own environment yeah you know obviously
[01:20:39] they put guys into into slots where they needed them but uh the thing that it was fluid
[01:20:47] so then uh your time's coming up to to head home was it was at a one year 365 days
[01:20:52] yeah pretty much yes and then did you I'm you used stayed right on doing your 12 on 12 off until
[01:20:59] it was time to go what they normally do is for the last uh week or two that uh you were in
[01:21:04] country send you into a bend to you for the uh for the uh out processing and we'd fly with the
[01:21:09] sea lords so you know you didn't stop flying it was just a different mission and then you get back
[01:21:16] uh then you then you get okay your time's up and it's time to go home yeah pretty much well you know
[01:21:21] there there'd be a little bit of a party a drunk expert uh but other than that yeah yeah that's that was
[01:21:27] that was it then how was that transition going from Vietnam and then what how many how many hours
[01:21:35] later you're back in America or how many days uh it was a straight through shot we stopped off uh in
[01:21:45] Honolulu there was one other stop maybe Guam and then Honolulu and then home it uh straight through
[01:21:50] and that's a way so you would you married you weren't married yet no now we got engaged on
[01:21:55] R&R and Hon Kong and that's a two-beer story so you got R&R from Vietnam met your
[01:22:04] your bride to be in Hon Kong that's right and proposed uh yeah you know we'd already talked about it
[01:22:13] we knew it was coming got down on any injury me skitching and all of a sudden but it was pretty
[01:22:18] interesting uh when I arrived in in Hong Kong uh we were I booked a room at the building so I
[01:22:26] go on down there and you know I'm checking in and I'm in my uh my uniform so the manager
[01:22:32] happens to be walking behind the desk and says oh Mr. Lali Mrs. Lali is waiting for you in your room
[01:22:39] if you can shit gales getting here to tomorrow what's mom gonna think of course gale got in a
[01:22:46] day early she was in there but you know times were different back then so your transition from
[01:22:58] Vietnam back to America all of a sudden and you were you know people people use the term wild
[01:23:04] west sometimes describe various military situations where it was how it was like the wild west
[01:23:09] I don't know if it gets much more wild west they didn't even see well for Vietnam I mean it just
[01:23:15] doesn't seem the way you guys were running things the way the support that you got or didn't get
[01:23:21] the I mean just the fact like you guys didn't even have flight suits they they wouldn't issue
[01:23:26] them or something like that and you guys were just wearing kind of what you what you could get a
[01:23:30] hold of everything was sort of wild west it took longer to get into a flight suit then it did
[01:23:35] to pull on a no-max shirt and certain bands and frequently it wasn't no-max and as they say you know
[01:23:44] I've flown missions in my 10 runners just we leave our our gear there in the seat and if I was playing
[01:23:51] volleyball and if the scrambles you you don't think about anything but getting in that aircraft and
[01:23:57] getting it cranking so yeah it was wild west and it got yeah and then and then you get back to America
[01:24:05] and you're still in the Navy right yeah how was that well got through train you know first of all
[01:24:14] you're just decompressing that was newly married the galloner getting used to living together
[01:24:20] she's dealing with my unique personality and it was sort of a scramble we partied art it's
[01:24:30] so when we got back a couple of seals one of them had a was connected to a family that owned
[01:24:39] one of the mansions they're in Coronado on the on the waterfront I think that was first street front
[01:24:45] street at any rate just a man it was a beat up old place but it was truly a mansion and they had
[01:24:52] a couple of mattresses on the floor and they had a table in the kitchen but no furniture and they had
[01:24:56] a a taper and we'd go over there and just party like crazy and we're going with this story
[01:25:06] is through all of that time and through all the craziness and through all of the drinking
[01:25:12] uh there was only one person who got hurt as a result of over indulging he ran his car into a
[01:25:22] telephone pole didn't didn't kill him didn't even hurt him very much but that was the only
[01:25:27] instance that I know of and the only casualty we had to alcohol was that same guy who turned
[01:25:35] himself in uh to for a and was uh cashiered out of the navy and then for ten years he was sober
[01:25:47] cleaning sober and he applied to get back in and the navy god love it let him back in
[01:25:54] but more remarkable than that this is one of our pilots now from the sea wolves they gave him
[01:26:00] his wings back and he finished up his career flying well that's awesome so yeah the the point is we we had a
[01:26:07] really great time when we got back and all that was sort of uh a haze but when I checked into the
[01:26:12] squadron after I completed the rag uh learned to fly the the Norr Noble H3 C slug yeah
[01:26:21] our our community officer took me in and uh in my check-in board interview says I know where you've been
[01:26:27] I know what you've done you aren't gonna get away with any of that crap here and that uh there was
[01:26:35] a leadership lesson there I knew that I never wanted to be like him yeah that had to be intimidating
[01:26:43] for a guy though that's taken on these these pilots that have been doing what you had been doing
[01:26:48] and all of a sudden they got to try and reign these guys back into the world yeah I hope I'm not going
[01:26:54] in the too many sea stories but that great friend about the only guy at names I'm using your guys who
[01:26:59] were just ceased but that huge canis was a copilot and we were set off to uh for uh to uh to
[01:27:08] Guam for some uh specialized training and he and I are there in our uh in our uh poopy suits
[01:27:17] at the bar the O'Claub bar at the Air Force base on Guam and we're in enjoying a couple of
[01:27:26] beers which tasted good and all of a sudden this bell rings like crazy and income these guys in
[01:27:34] pressed flight suits with ass gotts and everybody in the bar all the Air Force guys are standing
[01:27:40] at attention this B52 crew coming back from a mission and we're just sitting there with Air
[01:27:47] elbows on the bar and the crowd didn't know what to make of us but uh they didn't get too close to
[01:27:54] a sea there it's a c'mon guys we all have a mission to do and rolling thunder was a very important
[01:28:02] if uh taken to its uh conclusion uh we might have not a flossed that war and I I use the
[01:28:10] words loss and war carefully there and that's not it that is slip of the tongue um they've
[01:28:17] got a mission to do but I mean yeah the war from 40,000 feet and they were they're worried about
[01:28:24] the sands because they turned in it that's I don't want to go there I'm sorry I'd like to apologize
[01:28:29] to the United States Air Force and all the noble men and women who fly for the Air Force
[01:28:33] yeah that's uh actually you know those um when when we got back from Ramadi we we um we got
[01:28:42] after it in a very similar way um for several months I don't know how long you did but
[01:28:48] yeah there was a lot of uh beer and other things that were drank and and I don't know
[01:28:54] you know there's it was sort of uh it was sort of it seemed like the the normal thing to do
[01:28:59] I don't know it seemed like we were gonna kind of get it out of our systems for a little while
[01:29:04] and you know um get over it because it is it is you know it's not that big of a deal I don't
[01:29:11] want to make it sound like it's all crazy but you know you're over there and it's like okay
[01:29:14] it's a little bit of it's it's a different it's a different scenario and you got to kind of
[01:29:19] process through the fact that everything that you just were doing whatever a week ago two weeks
[01:29:24] ago three weeks ago is now completely different but your life is completely different and there's
[01:29:30] no one's shooting at you and there's no one not you're not gonna lose in your guys which was the
[01:29:35] the the weight that I felt lifted off of me about a month after I got home I was I just you know
[01:29:41] woke up one morning and I just kind of felt different and I kind of I was like why do I feel
[01:29:46] I felt different in a good way and what I felt was oh I was thinking about why do I feel different
[01:29:53] right now and and as I sat there and thought about it I was like I'm not worried about any of my
[01:29:57] guys getting killed right now which was the first time in months that I hadn't been thinking about
[01:30:01] that all day every day and so yeah when you come home um there's there's definitely that and I
[01:30:07] I think it's I think you got to pay attention as a leader to everyone in that group to make sure
[01:30:14] that guys are staying within the box and staying within what's what's and I guess possibly normal
[01:30:22] for those situations because you can definitely be you can there will definitely be individuals that
[01:30:28] they'll they'll go too far and that they're they're not making the transition and what they need is
[01:30:32] you know some help someone to come alongside, pull alongside and say hey man let's let's take it back
[01:30:37] a little bit or you know let's let's readjust and you know life's gonna be normal again and all that
[01:30:44] unfortunately the the way we were ruled in and out of the squadron when we left and came back to the
[01:30:51] world it was pretty much an individual effort so that and I also tempered with fact that your
[01:30:58] war was entirely different than ours I would imagine years was more up close and personal than
[01:31:06] than ours the tell you the truth I don't recall ever reflecting on whether my guys were going to
[01:31:15] come back from this mission or not you know it's something that we just all did we all did it together
[01:31:20] and I don't mean that to sound callous it just isn't wasn't part of my thinking and that goes back
[01:31:28] to what cousin Kim asked you know how did you do it yeah trying to bring everybody back home
[01:31:35] yeah I don't I definitely the without question thought about that every every day
[01:31:40] that was the biggest thing that I thought about every day was because there was guys getting
[01:31:46] killed every day basically there was memorial services every day there was you know one of the
[01:31:54] one of the things I've talked about this a bunch but there was a vehicle graveyard outside it wasn't
[01:32:00] it was on the way to the gate to leave Camp Ramadi there was a vehicle graveyard where all the vehicles
[01:32:05] that had been blown up and destroyed by IDs and there was I would say 50 or 75 maybe even 100
[01:32:11] but a massive area and so in order to leave the gate you drove by that you know it was a it was a
[01:32:18] it was a pretty harsh reminder and you know my guys were gone missions I wasn't always going on
[01:32:22] missions because I was overall in charge and there was multiple units and so a lot of times I'd be
[01:32:27] just saluting the guys as they'd be leaving and and that's a worse feeling of like okay you know
[01:32:33] you just you just got your damn fingers crossed and you hope you've done everything you can
[01:32:36] and hope you've mitigated the risk but that was the heaviest the heaviest weight for me was just
[01:32:43] that daily thought every because then there was also there was to fact that there was always
[01:32:49] guys in the field almost always there was almost always one of my you know little detachment to
[01:32:54] guys was out there with seven guys and 20 Iraqi soldiers and there was gunfights going on and
[01:32:59] that's the way it was that was the that was the heaviest thing from a leadership perspective for me
[01:33:07] and yeah so when I got home it took about a month you know before I was like before and the
[01:33:15] the other thing is I didn't well everything that I'm saying about that feeling I was barely
[01:33:19] conscious of it while I was there I was like it was there but I was more focused on doing the job
[01:33:24] it was more focused on it kind of cooked me like you know when they say the frog
[01:33:27] gonna be put the frog in the boiling water you cook it slow whatever you there was like that it
[01:33:32] was more like that like over time it just built up and what I did was just focused on working working
[01:33:36] hard but then when I got home it was like I said it was like a month after I got home I woke up one
[01:33:42] day and just felt like a weight lifted and I was saying what do I what is that what is that and
[01:33:50] then as I thought about it I'm thinking one of my not why do I feel like this you know I just
[01:33:54] had a big smile my face and was you know walking around my house and and thinking myself
[01:33:59] ah this feels good what is this and then I realized oh you're you're you're actually not worried
[01:34:05] that one of your friends is gonna die today which was a which was a totally it's like I said
[01:34:10] it was something that crept up on me and was just there there's just part of being over there
[01:34:15] and felt good to to have that weight come off but you know again I think I dealt with it pretty
[01:34:26] decently and you know did I get drunk with my friends yeah well there was some some significant
[01:34:31] to you bruiser activities that were were were fun and we let off a lot of steam and I think
[01:34:39] that's fine but again you know what worries me about saying that is that there's some people
[01:34:43] that take that as like oh okay now I'm cleared hot just to go and get drunk and get crazy and
[01:34:49] it's like no actually you're not you gotta keep that in check and especially from the guys
[01:34:54] that are in leadership positions hey man you gotta keep a close eye and step back and detach
[01:34:59] and look at the guys and say okay I get it we're gonna let off some steam I get it we're gonna
[01:35:04] adjust back the real world but we need to make sure that everyone is staying inside the box
[01:35:09] and make sure that they're gonna come back out of this thing okay because I mean we all know it
[01:35:14] nowadays man the vet's veterans come home and that's a hard transition to make from from combat
[01:35:20] to you know the civilian world and and even the world that you're talking about going from
[01:35:26] being a sea wolf in the wild west come back to your commanding officer saying look you're not
[01:35:29] gonna get away with that crap here and you know we we definitely had our share of little
[01:35:34] stories like that from to you bruiser where you know guys guys would not quite be ready you know
[01:35:41] as a matter of fact JP to know who is with me at echelon front my brother when he came home
[01:35:47] when we came home he was in another tune got hurt they sent him to our basic training school
[01:35:52] so but he's gonna be a bud instructor and he didn't last very long over there because you can't
[01:35:59] take a guy that's 23 years old that just been through what JP had been through and say okay now you're
[01:36:05] gonna go go and be in charge of training these guys that are trying to make it through but it wasn't a
[01:36:11] good fit and so I just you know luckily had friends and we were able to just pull them over and you
[01:36:16] worked directly from me again getting guys ready for the the more advanced training in combat training
[01:36:21] which he was perfect for but that was an example of where you know I was I had to look out and say okay
[01:36:28] this is not a good job for him right now you know JP's already an intense an intense guy and
[01:36:35] coming home from Ramadhi you know it was it was a tough deployment you know he lost friends
[01:36:42] and as a young kid he wasn't ready to be teaching these young you know he's looking at these
[01:36:50] kids like you know you're you kidding me I'm gonna I'm gonna freaking decimate you guys and so I had
[01:36:55] to pull them over to a little bit more advanced training my brother JP so you get oh so now so now
[01:37:03] you you're staying in the Navy that's it never doubting my mind and you end up I mean you you end
[01:37:09] up doing the anti submarine warfare which is the job that kind of a no is that the job that annoyed you
[01:37:15] we called it also what you were given a mission without the the meanest to prosecute the mission and
[01:37:22] that annoyed me and then and then you went on to become a test pilot is that right correct
[01:37:29] the steely eyed granite jaw test pilot and look at me now so so what is that job like
[01:37:37] it's it's fascinating you know I'm living proof that nothing arms are a person more than
[01:37:43] too much formal education but I get off on that and it was brought home to me once when we were
[01:37:48] having a raging party at our home in protection river Maryland when I was there at the test center and
[01:37:53] most of the guys had have a copy of playboy magazine on their night table a couple of guys have gone
[01:37:59] back to take a leak in our bedroom and found that I had some technical reports there and I
[01:38:05] online and I didn't hear the end of that for a long time but I enjoyed it I enjoyed the the technical
[01:38:11] aspects of it I I often said there are only two topics that are worthy of conversation between men
[01:38:20] and that is flying in the fornication and you know I I I lived to fly
[01:38:28] having said that since I retired I have flown very little but at that point in my life
[01:38:33] it was all about flying and it was a wonderful experience the the flying we did was not
[01:38:41] experimental flying it was engineering flying we test out weapon systems we test out new aircraft
[01:38:46] I was fortunate to to lead one of the three prongs of the the biggest telecopter acquisition
[01:38:54] that the Navy's made when they were looking for the new lamps helicopter two of my great good friends
[01:39:00] were we're flying the uh... secoreski and the uh and the uh Boeing products and they were pretty
[01:39:07] well through their test uh program which took I think about a year when uh bell helicopter
[01:39:13] piped up and says hey we've got one too well they didn't have a a really logical
[01:39:19] contenter but they needed somebody to go on down and leave the test of that aircraft and
[01:39:25] that was me and boy that was fun you know you hear literally or flying the test card
[01:39:30] that takes out to the edge of the envelope and hey are you good enough sure i'm good enough
[01:39:35] yeah just uh don't go too far and don't bust your ass there's there's a lot of uh investment
[01:39:41] that you're sitting in right there that you want they want you to keep in uh in one piece but
[01:39:45] no I thoroughly enjoyed it uh lifelong friends there and just keep me to a story the two guys
[01:39:52] that were flying uh the uh Boeing's in secoreski dear friends one of them was an naval academy
[01:39:58] classmate and he and i flew in Vietnam and uh the other guy Greek is just a wonderful guy and
[01:40:04] still a lifelong close friend well duck uh was unfortunately fortunately for uh
[01:40:12] Hughes became their chief test pilot uh he got out of the navy and was uh flying for Hughes
[01:40:18] and was killed in uh in a horrible uh accident and Greek and uh uh sort of sort of close ranks
[01:40:26] and uh decided that uh we were going to uh try and send uh duck off in good stead so uh
[01:40:37] if you're familiar with San Diego now you know about the point luma lighthouse and the area up there
[01:40:43] that's where the family was waiting Hughes had given us a uh 500 to uh scatter the remains in uh
[01:40:51] that Greek took it upon himself to do this now at this time he probably had uh 2500 flytars
[01:40:58] he knew his way around the helicopter he's in his navy blues he gets in the aircraft he's got
[01:41:04] the cremeins in his lap and they're flying out along well below uh the uh the point on on out
[01:41:12] over the ocean and he looks up and sees the family up there and he's so emotionally wrought
[01:41:20] that he reaches down and takes the lid off of the cremeins well if you've ever been an helicopter
[01:41:26] you know that it's not they uh a very stable place to have cremeins and immediately he said it was
[01:41:34] IFR inside that cockpit with duck every one of her and fortunately the family didn't know what
[01:41:41] was going on and everything uh came out fine but Greek could call me up and said hey uh uh had uh had
[01:41:49] to make mustard today and I said yeah and he says yeah and when I got my blues out I'm still
[01:41:54] brushing duck off of the... so yeah there's ways you uh you accommodate that uh uh i always think
[01:42:03] of the great good times that uh that duck and uh Greek and I had together and I mis-im-sure
[01:42:10] I mis-im all the time but you life goes on sounds like he had to final say about what
[01:42:17] yeah yeah you were OIC during the Iranian hostage crisis what was that like?
[01:42:26] uh that uh was self-made you know yes we were the only uh uh helicopter out there
[01:42:36] that wasn't on the large gray boats to actually fly the mission that could provide combat
[01:42:43] search and rescue uh so uh we took full advantage of that uh got the uh armament that we thought
[01:42:49] we passing through Guam uh I didn't like the side arm I had so I went on down to buy one
[01:42:54] and oh it's gonna take two weeks and it took me about two hours to get in touch with the uh
[01:42:58] local authorities and I had my uh my side arm I'm not going over the horizon which is sort of silly
[01:43:05] you know I mean really uh you're you're flying an over water mission and you need to
[01:43:12] sell any and ever can tell it's always good to be prepared but at any rate uh we'd go out there
[01:43:18] and uh and just train for that uh when we weren't actually out there in in support of the uh the
[01:43:24] the boats uh we've gotten a train for that you end up doing your 20 years um and then you
[01:43:31] called it at 20 is that this how long you did 20 21 21 years and then you went off to the civilian
[01:43:37] sector because it had started working a bunch of various jobs that's right I started out in high tech
[01:43:46] our company had uh a professional staff of 260% of whom were PhDs and I had enough technical background
[01:43:54] that uh I'd go out to a customer with one or more of these PhDs and they'd make their presentation
[01:43:59] and I'd say let me thank you what the doctor meant to say was yeah and I just had it and a great
[01:44:06] a being surrounded by smart people and just is a lot of fun it can be very frustrating at times
[01:44:13] but it's a lot of fun yeah and we have a curious insult in the teams which is someone will
[01:44:22] ask you about a guy and the guy's not a bad guy but someone will say oh you know he's he's a really
[01:44:28] smart guy when you might not be the best most common sense you might not be the best leader but you
[01:44:36] don't use this smart guy so yes you can get frustrated you can around with people that are super
[01:44:42] smart and then fine and then when did you move to Hawaii about 14 years ago I spent five years
[01:44:49] in uh range operations and then they created a new position and for my last five working years
[01:44:55] I was the environmental manager for the Pacific Missile range my daughter when she learned of that
[01:45:02] said dad you hate those guys and I said yes Heather but no I'm in a position to say no
[01:45:10] I just had a lot of fun you know the local environment I'm in community great people
[01:45:16] but they were not strong supporters of military training and that that was uh the my cause
[01:45:24] to help them explain why we needed to train out there and that we were right out to kill the
[01:45:30] whales yeah we were yeah and then how long ago was it that you retired retired about four years ago
[01:45:40] that's retirement has been very very good DJ and I mean I got I got one more quote that I that I
[01:45:52] wanted to read because I know we've been going out for a bit here but uh this is this is another quote
[01:45:59] this is a quote from from a Vietnam seal um and here we go not only does many a seal
[01:46:06] always life to the sea wolves but the units often operated together as a team very often located
[01:46:12] at the same base of operations we developed friendships that are still alive today operating well
[01:46:17] outside standing oper standard operating procedures the sea wolves have lifted seals out of enemy
[01:46:24] encirclements and I have known them to land in a hot LZ to lift out cash is too large for the
[01:46:30] seals to pack out they also evacuated our wounded when metovac helicopters were not available
[01:46:37] most important they were always there for us when we were down in the mud and darkness the night
[01:46:43] illuminated with red and green tracers the VC behind every shadow many times after we were out of danger
[01:46:51] they stayed with us until we were safely extracted in the middle of the river and out of the
[01:46:57] range of enemy fire and that's chief Barry Enoch who's a legendary seal from seal team one navy
[01:47:06] cross for Cyprian and I think that that quote just really exemplifies the the bond between seals
[01:47:15] and sea wolves and like I said it was something that I heard about as a young seal and it's a bond
[01:47:21] that still exists when when I talk to the Vietnam seals and it's a bond that's uh that's always
[01:47:28] going to be there and um all into that do you have any uh you know like I said we've been at it for a while
[01:47:37] and I like I like I told you before we started I could sit else in here I could sit here to listen to you
[01:47:42] all day but uh do you have any other you know any other closing thoughts that you want to that you want to
[01:47:47] mention uh hand salute to the 44 that didn't make it back with us uh anyone who hasn't been
[01:47:59] to the wall anybody who served who hasn't been to the wall you ought to make that trip
[01:48:08] a shout out again and I know it sounds like a broken record but to the guys that are responsible
[01:48:15] for getting me back in one piece our gunners great human beings and uh to the guys I flew with
[01:48:24] hey next time we'd get together the beers on you yeah I I should share with you that uh as a
[01:48:32] technical person I have developed what I call rallies theorem and rallies theorem says that all the
[01:48:39] truly great ladies hook up with all the truly big buffoons and stinky if you're out there listening
[01:48:47] I sure am glad that you did that love you more than pork chops maybe and uh well also thanks
[01:48:55] your son Sean for uh for connecting us and when he came up and asked me he said oh gee would you have
[01:49:01] us you will find your podcast I'm like uh let me think about that for point two seconds absolutely
[01:49:06] so um yeah thanks to Sean for for connecting us and and it's been an honor to sit here and listen to you
[01:49:15] and thanks for what you and all the sea wolves did for our country for our navy and specifically
[01:49:25] thank you for the support that you and your brothers gave to my brothers and my forefathers on the ground
[01:49:30] in Vietnam will never forget what you and your brothers did and we'll never forget the sacrifices of those
[01:49:42] those brave sea wolves that made the ultimate sacrifice for our freedom and Dennis Rally has
[01:49:52] has left the building and obviously awesome to have him on and incredible opportunity to talk
[01:49:59] about this the sea wolves and go check out this website it's seowulf.org really cool website to read through
[01:50:07] one of the coolest things on it is I read that example of the wolf gram they got all the wolf grams
[01:50:12] and they're all just for you they're good they're worth checking out they've also got all the awards
[01:50:18] that well not they've got the list of the awards they've got the navy cross awards and they're
[01:50:21] just an awesome website so go check it out seowulf.org and with that if you want to support you know
[01:50:31] yourself this podcast etc echo what you got stand path okay stand path talk about jj2 yes jj2
[01:50:40] get a key we know we're getting keys or jingies do we all know that yeah that's origin do we know that
[01:50:47] yes you should know that so go to originmain.com that's where you get your key and rash cards for
[01:50:54] jj2 hundred percent bar none I'm almost tempted to say don't even get any other kind of key or rash
[01:51:01] card I would agree with that yeah boom hundred percent also if you're warming up or cooling down
[01:51:08] or just cruising they have joggers you got into the joggers yeah that's the my son got some of the
[01:51:15] joggers which he's totally stoked on I tried them on yeah just to see it was so horrible they
[01:51:22] are so not not not in situation well here's the thing with joggers depending on how you wear them
[01:51:28] for sure but they're more of a should I put this kind of
[01:51:35] acceptably they're kind of form feeding from time to time right so they're you know they're kind of
[01:51:41] you know so they don't flap around so they're form feeding you in form feeding joggers yeah
[01:51:48] that could see how that could be a violation for sure but if you're not joko joggers most comfortable
[01:51:54] joggers in the world probably in the history of joggers maybe ever origin main origin joggers also
[01:52:01] we got some supplements on there that you can take you got joint warfare which will keep your joints
[01:52:09] intact yeah krill oil same thing kind of universal substance yeah that's the main team
[01:52:22] that I went off the joint warfare for a little while why oh long story being yeah I didn't
[01:52:29] lapse of discipline you know all the kind where I'm like oh I don't feel the pain you know
[01:52:34] enough so I just don't I'm not like compelled as much you know when you you make it like a routine
[01:52:40] no right like that's just the thing I get up every day yeah I take it before I get I take
[01:52:45] krill oil and and joint warfare when I wake up in the morning and before I go to bed at night
[01:52:50] period and destroy every day yeah like you didn't even train that day still the 100%
[01:52:54] joint warfare didn't train that day but yeah well still discipline is not 100% because I don't take that
[01:53:01] every day I take it when needed yeah but I will say I've been using I feel like that's a
[01:53:07] little bit of a crutch right out because I've been using it a lot before just yeah well still you
[01:53:12] can take it every yeah you can but no the joint warfare I like your mindset I think I actually
[01:53:17] think I should incorporate that works just that's just how every day so with the joint warfare I'll
[01:53:22] be like well you know like it'll be in my mind not even necessarily heavily but it will be in my
[01:53:28] oh did I train hard enough to warrant like joint warfare kind of kind of attitude it's more or less
[01:53:35] like that so I wasn't feeling any kind of inflammation or pain or nothing so I was like you know
[01:53:42] I saw it so I skipped it one day and then I sort of you know it just wasn't in my mind sure enough
[01:53:48] and I'm still lifting still doing it still in the game freaking elbow comes back
[01:53:54] because I'd get elbow from you know and I'd get little elbow things nothing terrible you
[01:54:00] just got to warm up more whatever but man it came back just like oh the joint war 100% this
[01:54:06] is just the other day so usually it takes a few days to like kind of get back how's it feel like
[01:54:11] now it's fine but when I started like if I started to do a push up like a close grip push up right
[01:54:16] now I'll feel it probably yeah maybe I don't know because it's been a few days so that's
[01:54:20] joint warfare a good oil discipline and then got milk which is just the food that you need in your body
[01:54:27] yeah that's what it basically is yeah and it tastes good and also for your kids you got
[01:54:33] where your kid milk strawberry and chocolate they're both really good but let's face it
[01:54:38] strawberry is a whole another deal Brian is working on adult strawberry milk will be coming out with
[01:54:45] that can I shoot this about the regular milk dark chocolate is good right like after a certain
[01:54:53] the percentage of what is it what is it what makes dark chocolate better right it's like a certain
[01:54:58] percentage of dark chocolate in life yeah yeah because there's no sugar in it if you just get
[01:55:04] straight dark chocolate right but then there's like 80% 80% that's like the threshold let me
[01:55:10] know if you're doing this way 80% is is good when you get to 72% you're like you're like oh that's
[01:55:16] just a tasty you know you're just eating dessert 80% it's not quite it still give you a
[01:55:21] chocolate satisfaction but it's not like the same. If you eat two squares of 80% chocolate you
[01:55:29] won't desire more if you eat two squares of 72% chocolate you like I'm gonna have a little bit more
[01:55:34] yeah okay perfect so so the the milk with a don't milk my question to you in your opinion
[01:55:42] your juggle discipline opinion if I put a chunk because like last night I put this chunk
[01:55:50] there's this chunk I don't know why it was there was there chunk a chocolate it wasn't 80% in the
[01:55:55] blender I didn't put the whole thing I broke off a little piece so it's maybe like a the size of a
[01:56:00] uh two you know the little baby snickers bars two of those I would say that's how big the
[01:56:06] chunk this block of chocolate two of the baby snickers yeah it was a big munchache those like three
[01:56:13] scoops okay you know like you know the 30 ounce yeah the mugs that we have four anyway
[01:56:21] put it in with a peanut butter chocolate munk and it didn't hand-stit oh yeah well of course
[01:56:26] so the question is is like how much of a violate like if it's 80% chocolate
[01:56:32] or a dark 80% dark chocolate but you didn't put 80% dark I know but that's a sugar chocolate
[01:56:38] no matter what I did I didn't do I'm saying theoretically if I did 80% or more chocolate
[01:56:44] that's good that's still within the confines I'd say you're not the path in the game right
[01:56:48] say you're in the game in on the path okay 80% so if when we come across 80% chocolate
[01:56:54] let's add that just collectively let's add that and see how we all feel about that that's what I think
[01:56:59] check you get the little chips at the bottom of the cup too it's pretty cool check also I just
[01:57:04] talk to a guy strawberry or further warrior kid mulk if your kid is lactose intolerant
[01:57:11] you put him on the almond milk right so get some of that do you get also if you want to
[01:57:17] represent on the path jocquoise store called jocquoise store so we can get shirts hats hoodies tank tops
[01:57:29] more rash guards recommended still within within the confines of being in the game or rash
[01:57:34] guards as well if you want to represent in the wild on the path and in the wild the same
[01:57:40] jocquoise store dot com so you can get some cool stuff all jocquo proved all of it women stuff
[01:57:48] on there is by the way there is counterfeit jocquo stuff yeah but here's the thing about the
[01:57:52] bunch fit here's the thing about the counterfeit once they're like if you all you have to do
[01:57:57] here I dig it like you you'll see a cool design that seems new because that's really the
[01:58:05] what you call it the visceral that's negative right that like the immediate responses like oh new
[01:58:11] design on amazon or wherever these kind of it exists you see the new design so you kind of oh
[01:58:17] cool and you in your in your haste you click on it but here's the thing if you just stop for one second
[01:58:23] you can be aggressive but not full hearty right that's the deal so you take this one moment to
[01:58:29] recognize the design you'll know there's violations all through every single design on there first off
[01:58:35] the font is like the completely wrong font it's completely wrong then I saw one like the good one
[01:58:41] right that's on like you know one of these one of these websites that you can go to and you submit
[01:58:49] your pdf or jpeg and it generates a shirt for you it's like it's a super cheap thing
[01:58:57] so there's one of those not here forget what it's called but it's one of those where it's like
[01:59:01] obviously cheap and the design's wrong it's backwards ours is backwards the good says is backwards
[01:59:07] it's how it's supposed to be there's ones all frontwards like just some person who didn't pay attention
[01:59:12] is trying to do it it's real obvious if you take that second to notice it though so the
[01:59:17] counterfeit ones you know there you go so just look out for the counterfeit ones yeah they're out there
[01:59:24] also do you won't get counterfeit ones at jacquistart.com correct yeah actually actually also
[01:59:31] jacquo it is their counterfeit jacquo it is not so that's not gonna be a lot harder to
[01:59:36] cut yeah you gotta you gotta put some effort into that one yeah you don't have to get labels
[01:59:42] done I would actually be kind of impressed like like slightly just in your mode of getting
[01:59:47] after it would be high level yeah because it's not easy to make tea no not easy make cans of tea no
[01:59:55] it is not easy to the deadlift 8000 pounds unless you've been drinking your tea so you get some
[02:00:00] of that organic too by the way certifying just seeing also subscribe to the podcast if you haven't already
[02:00:09] on iTunes and stature in google play and wherever you listen to podcast because there's a lot of
[02:00:14] podcast apps there's a lot of podcasts too yeah yeah and if you're listening to this one
[02:00:20] tank in a way it's kind of like man thanks well definitely thanks there's also the warrior kid
[02:00:26] podcast which is getting a lot of hype right now why because we talked about it on the last
[02:00:33] two podcasts go here people kind of recognize and they didn't this is the thing I'm not real good
[02:00:39] at the whole like like hey everyone look at what I'm doing that's not really you know I'm like hey
[02:00:46] there's a podcast if you want to check it out check it out so with the I posted it and talked about
[02:00:53] it and so a bunch of people went and check out the warrior kid podcast the feedback is awesome and
[02:00:57] I appreciate it and also if you want to check out some warrior kid stuff you can check out Irish Oaks
[02:01:02] Ranch.com where Aiden who's a warrior kid is making soap on his farm just for real and
[02:01:13] if you want to get some of that soap Irish Oaks Ranch.com that way you can follow the motto
[02:01:19] of Aiden's soap and that motto is stately so check that one out also we got a YouTube channel
[02:01:26] which is called jockel podcast and that's where these videos are of this podcast if you
[02:01:33] want to see what Dennis Rally looks like how tall he is can you tell that from a video where he's sitting
[02:01:39] down he was kind of going out of frame like like sit up yeah so yes he's can't do it yeah
[02:01:44] he's a big dude full of a loa by the way yeah of waifu a loa but yeah if you want to see what
[02:01:50] what Dennis Rally looks like and you can come on there you can also see echoes enhanced videos as he likes to
[02:01:58] call him he thinks it's an enhancement when he adds stuff to him you think it takes it away I
[02:02:03] didn't take away from the message I heard that yeah over that people have actually told you that
[02:02:08] well I don't agree with it I'll tell you what totally changed my attitude is the is the
[02:02:13] mic in the dragon video okay that video is sick the video that you made is it and that video I said
[02:02:21] to myself even this is more powerful even like you know you never really think about what you think
[02:02:26] about it but like the background music like when when it says the king diesness like chelokic
[02:02:32] so to the background of like December yeah well that that is a good point and you are kind of
[02:02:39] advanced in your thinking because really to put kind of to put it kind of precisely the goal is
[02:02:47] it's not necessarily to be like hey what's the background music supposed to be it's like what's
[02:02:51] the feeling supposed to be and then you know I'll certain instruments for music or whatever will
[02:02:56] provide certain feelings and you know that's kind of the goal to line them up that's it so then
[02:03:01] you recognize that so that video has definitely impressed upon me that video is can't have a positive
[02:03:07] impact and positively enhance to use your term what's going on with the words that are in the
[02:03:14] video yeah but what about if I put like the walls crumbling and crashing down see and you see
[02:03:23] that over the whole time you happen to expose see does that take away from you like one of those
[02:03:28] people that got carried away with CGI on that video yeah which I you know you got to explore the boundaries
[02:03:33] yes sometimes you go out to I see on a recent video that I did I'm not gonna say which one but I
[02:03:39] did the same thing but now with crumbling and crashing noises and effects I did it with lens flare
[02:03:44] you know lens flare is right oh yes I do like the goal lens flare somebody puts a light in front of
[02:03:49] the camera yeah well it's the the aberrations or I don't know whatever the word you want to use that
[02:03:53] that a light going directly at the camera will create these like you know little and you can do it on
[02:03:59] purpose right it's like a look it's like an epic look when you get what's called an animal
[02:04:03] thick lens it kind of does this thing it compresses it to the side kind of thing and then when you
[02:04:09] to put in laminas terms basically when you put the video did you do this on I can't tell you
[02:04:14] now we're not gonna watch all my videos yeah yeah go watch all the videos you tell me but here's
[02:04:19] why I don't want to say it because now people will be paying attention to it and they'll be like oh yeah
[02:04:23] you're right because okay not to go into a whole long thing but okay so there's a guy named JJ Abram
[02:04:30] he's a director and I think a writer too but anyway he does he did like the new start trick
[02:04:35] movies did the new start wars you know he's like kind of a sci-fi guy and he got a lot of
[02:04:42] he got a lot people had an issue with the amount of lens flare is he allowed in start trick
[02:04:48] the newer star so clear everywhere I thought I thought I really dope man I really like that look
[02:04:54] but he got a lot of you know a lot of shit for it nonetheless I don't want to be in that same
[02:04:59] boat with these videos with that particular video that I'm talking about so if they don't notice
[02:05:04] then good if so then that seems same I'm gonna go post about it nonetheless psychological warfare
[02:05:12] too which is an album with tracks where I tell you what you should do to push through the moment
[02:05:17] of weakness and that's all we're gonna say about that okay it works with a hundred percent
[02:05:25] certainty I'll add that are you still batting a hundred percent right now we'll get that I'm
[02:05:30] gonna call I'm gonna call yeah you on that oh hundred percent every single time I've ever
[02:05:35] used it recently because it's like are you scared of it I didn't I didn't need it I don't have
[02:05:42] many moments weakness nowadays see I'm like forged in the fire of discipline no transgressions
[02:05:51] are you trying to set yourself up to make a video with flare for yourself
[02:05:54] that's not a good no no no I'm reporting back to you my current status on my discipline
[02:06:00] nonetheless I haven't had to use it recently so yeah I mean doesn't matter if every single time
[02:06:06] that I've used it it yeah it helps like what I'm gonna do listen to you telling me and then like
[02:06:11] oh yeah I'm stupid you know to me just making the effort to open my ears to you is already
[02:06:17] like on the way like power through yeah exactly right check so you know hundred percent on that one
[02:06:25] in my experience also you want to very up your workout on it fitness gear is at on it dot
[02:06:32] com they got a lot of cool stuff on there a lot of good stuff so if you want to improve in hands
[02:06:37] it's very increase variables increase stuff in your workout if it's getting boring or something
[02:06:45] like this got on it dot com gets something from there like kettle pills or rings or battle ropes
[02:06:53] I think if you add one or more of those things into your workout it'll be enhanced greatly
[02:06:58] results wise my opinion my prediction also books what do we got well first of all we got
[02:07:05] Mike in dragons told you about the video go watch the video and then you'll want to get the book
[02:07:09] why because I could get a really good job and thanks because the book is legit
[02:07:14] am I allowed to say that about my own book or is that make me arrogant
[02:07:18] yeah no from what I've been told it's legit
[02:07:21] everyone appreciates book and a bunch of people have now started posting
[02:07:26] reviews on amazon which is very cool I appreciate it I've read them and I'll read some next time live
[02:07:32] but yeah so so Mike in the dragons here's the deal is it sold out at this moment in time yes
[02:07:38] will it be sold out when you hear this probably not actually it's probably we got more books coming in
[02:07:43] getting imprinted it's quickly as they can possibly print them and I apologize for not
[02:07:50] correctly estimating how many books everyone would buy that is my fault and I apologize for it
[02:07:56] but if you do want Mike in the dragons order it as soon as you can so that you can get it as quickly
[02:08:03] as possible also the way the warrior kid books
[02:08:07] way the warrior kid and marks mission those books are good for kids and adults and really anyone
[02:08:15] and you know just got done talking to talking to Dennis rally downstairs and he's like oh
[02:08:20] yeah I read those books they're awesome so he's he's a what I don't know how old he is
[02:08:25] but he's a Vietnam veteran pilot and he read warrior kids and was was down for the cost
[02:08:31] that's weird you said down for the cause because I was thinking in my head down for the cause
[02:08:34] yeah well he is clearly you know down for the cause yeah this may go to freedom field manual
[02:08:40] good one outstanding one actually I think so again and I said this before I'm saying again
[02:08:47] because this is a constant thing it's like one of those things like a manual like an actual manual
[02:08:52] for life but so okay you said that I get it but yeah you refer to it that's what you do it's like
[02:08:58] a reminder and we do this all the time by the way but this is a good one to just remember because that's
[02:09:04] part of the the actually it's the majority of the challenge right there it's to remember this stuff
[02:09:10] like say hey you shouldn't freaking drink a soda right now with your sushi don't do that you know
[02:09:18] that are any but if it's just part of the habit it's like boom you might forget because you're thinking
[02:09:22] about some other stuff you know some edits or whatever that you had to do same so you got that
[02:09:27] manual there this time and you just refer to it kind of maybe even daily semi daily
[02:09:33] I recommend daily daily yeah and you just remember all this stuff just keeps you on the path man
[02:09:39] that one isn't print by the way just plenty of them so you can order that one and
[02:09:44] that's a good Christmas gift yeah for people that you know who needs it in your world you know what I mean
[02:09:51] and I don't think it's insulting well by the way if someone is offended by it just get him to crack it open
[02:09:57] because I'll realize like hey this isn't meant to offend this is meant to build yeah and actually
[02:10:03] you know what now that you think of it that book isn't like extreme ownership might be that kind of
[02:10:09] book that if you get it with something for someone they'll be like what are you sure you know like we'll
[02:10:13] elicit what it called defensiveness yeah but the field manual won't because like first when you
[02:10:19] first see it you're like oh this is awesome just I don't seem saying like looking at it but it's like
[02:10:24] yeah it's like a cool like field manual it doesn't scream like you need to take responsibility for
[02:10:31] stuff that's why I'm here it just you don't get that feel but even even if that person might
[02:10:36] feel that maybe you got to do it with like a certain type of card or something soon as they yeah
[02:10:44] thank you for everything you've ever taught me and then I give it to them. She's insane so that's like
[02:10:51] yeah she act well speaking of extreme ownership there's extreme ownership and there's that I
[02:10:55] caught in the leadership both books that are about leadership and they are available of course
[02:11:01] and those are those are books that will pragmatically teach you how to lead that's all there is to it
[02:11:12] echelon front speaking of leadership that's our leadership consultancy we saw problems through
[02:11:17] leadership it's me Lave Babin JP to now Dave Burke Flynn Cochran Mike's Relly and Mike Bima
[02:11:23] go to echelon front dot com if we want us to come to your business and align your leadership
[02:11:29] or you want us to come and do a keynote speech go to echelon front dot com and get the details there
[02:11:36] the master is coming up 2019 video soon to be released it's gonna be in Chicago Denver and Sydney
[02:11:45] yes three must Sydney Australia are you familiar with that area yes yeah so Chicago Sydney
[02:11:52] and Denver check out extreme ownership dot com that's where we'll post the details all of them have
[02:11:58] sold out and all of them will sell out you might not think that in Australia we're gonna sell out but we
[02:12:06] will so you see all of them have sold out in the past in the past yes they're sorry yes they haven't these
[02:12:12] ones haven't sold out yet but they will so register early everyone down under we know when I was in
[02:12:19] breezy she's breezy I was in breezy and we did a little book signing I did a little book signing
[02:12:25] and there was people from all over Australia there did you get a breezy did you know
[02:12:30] when you're in breezy that the Australians tend to do that very thing with words they'll
[02:12:38] shorten them and then put it e or oh yeah for sure you know yeah yes so the Aussies do that with their
[02:12:43] seat right there Aussies boom yeah yeah well there you go I kind of incorporated that one I
[02:12:49] I've been there twice and yeah I noticed that and I liked it the first S.A.S. guy I worked with you know
[02:12:56] does name was well there was two the first one's name was dutchie dutchie what was his whole name
[02:13:02] I did was a long dutch name and the other one's name was tombo and then nicky right
[02:13:10] so yeah 100% we're batten a hundred yeah that is thousand I was doing it I guess what would be
[02:13:16] called a mini documentary one of the times I went there and one of the guys names Jason Roe Big
[02:13:22] it's a black belt under Hicks and Gracie so it's with him and he the way he'd explain what
[02:13:28] people like hey what are you guys doing he'd be like oh we're making a little doco for you know
[02:13:32] for this thing or whatever and um like people understood oh they knew exactly and I was like
[02:13:37] I like that it's good yeah man so yeah incorporate that into your thing it's so yeah Australia
[02:13:44] will be down there Chicago Denver also we have yeah overwatch now if you're looking to bring
[02:13:52] little experienced and tested leaders into your organization on the civilian side we've got
[02:13:57] military spec ops and combat aviators that are leaders that have been trained and have been
[02:14:04] tested and then moving into the civilian sector to come and help your company go to efoverwatch.com
[02:14:12] and if you want to keep you know sort of kicking it with us we're available on the
[02:14:20] interwebs on Twitter on Instagram and on Facebook e boh ha echo is at echo Charles and I am at
[02:14:31] jocca willink and thanks to all our military personnel out there that are out there protecting our
[02:14:39] freedom and to all the vets that have served and have protected our great nation and a special thanks
[02:14:46] to how three the sea wolves for doing what you did 24 hours a day to support and save troops
[02:14:56] on the ground thanks to all of you and of course the Dennis Rally thanks for coming on it's amazing
[02:15:01] to meet you and thanks for sharing your history and the history of the sea wolves with us can't say that
[02:15:09] enough thank you thanks to police law enforcement firefighters paramedics EMT's correctional officers
[02:15:15] board patrol first responders of all kinds thanks for holding the line for us 24 hours a day here
[02:15:22] at home front and to everyone else out there if you're feeling a little outgunned by the world
[02:15:34] think about think about those words scramble the sea wolves and then go out on the attack no matter
[02:15:43] the weather or the environment or the enemy fire you got problems going hot and get after it
[02:15:53] and until next time this is echo and jockel out