Jocko Podcast 150 w/ Dave Hall and Josh Hall: Drafted to Vietnam, Surfing and Surfboards

2018-11-07T23:06:12Z

Join the conversation on Twitter/Instagram: @jockowillink @joshhallsurfboards @echocharles 0:00:00 – Opening 0:03:01 – Dave Hall: The Draft. Vietnam. 1:48:24 – Josh Hall: Surfing, Surfboards, and Entrepreneurship. Josh Hall Surfboards: http://www.joshhallsurfboards.com 2:45:30 – How to Stay on The Path. 3:31:36 – Closing Gratitude.

AI summary of episode

There was just one time when we were traveling and we were having supplies, hard to keep up with this and stuff, you know, so it was, you know, you know, you know, water, you know, the fuel and you ended up, you know, bathing in bomb, bomb craters and things like that. because all of like you know the the post recording plans they're all still there you know and you're like hey let's train it's like noon at that time so other people were here you know there's the buzz you know the buzz of training You could ask a question, they just would be like, it's a bail, you know, like, wrong, like, well, build your board, but don't, you know, like, don't go nose and and around, you know. yeah that's the only way it should be you know how you like little kid should be on the mulk train everywhere I agree you say that you know how there's like right now you can flip on the news and you can see like obesity in America if everyone just gets on the mulk train will just be like America's now you you're a pro you're a pro you're not a america now you're what happened they're tracing it back to a strange podcast that talked about a a formula that they called mulk and the children they started to drink it and now the children of america are yoked It was just, it was more like, we would watch the shortboard videos, like all the lost videos, you know, and that's what we'd watch, like the Taylor steel stuff, like momentum and focus, like, that's what we watched, but somehow, like, I ended up just being the longboarder in the group, so to my friend, Joe. and but here's the thing when you train that adversity element you're like you kind of you want to do that it's like it's like invited to adversity kind of thing do you know just like how you just said where it's like hey I mean, I saw a M60 tank, you know, you had a 500 pounder around and I didn't, you know, I'll split in half like that, and went off like this, you know, two guys live. And I think just again, as like almost a advice is like what the approach you took was, hey, be humble, be persistent, you know, show up, absorb, don't run your mouth, you know, you want like, hey, can you be my mentor? You know, maybe, I guess I wasn't that, you know, like, I wasn't like a big guy, but I don't know. I was like, I want that, man, because it's like consistent boards every month, you know, 10, 15, 20, 30, who knows what, you know, numbers he was doing, but I was like, that's how you make it. hey I'm going to train jiu jitsu Monday no jiu jitsu Tuesday I'm going to lift Tuesday instead you know like some people have that plan you know where you're not going to do a two-day scenario then yeah don't train don't train twice a day or twice the in a row I don't agree I know you did a bunch of different, like, types of missions while you were there, like, in terms of, you did, like, look, let's just ask you like, so what are the various types of missions that you guys were doing? anymore they know your kid knows ice cream makes them weak they know that and if they don't know that they should you should tell them so let them know that warrior kid mulk it tastes delicious This is still crew back then holding it down and I'm like, hey, man, you're going to get your kid heard out here and like this like like 55 barrel drum like sits up and just looks at me. And we know they're not good for us, but you're like have you like like you're like No, it's just a few croutons. so I will vouch for that that is a factual thing that will happen you don't feel like it I will mix up you know I'll mix up all the kind you know when I don't feel like going yeah that's exactly what I was thinking that whole thing where you know it's kind of going in circles with the thing where it's like you should never be unhappy or not want to train you know kind of scenario Yeah, we ran into a lot of places like bunker systems, stuff that they had wires and, you know, for communications and things, you know, but, yeah, the mines, I was in a situation where two tracks in front of me, we, we take this another fire fire fire, we created and stuff. and we picked up the glosser polisher there and also the fin laminator guy John that puts the fins on so it's really become this like real tight crew and again, legends beyond me, I mean these guys have been building boards for 40 plus years, I just happen to be the kid that's given him foam, you know, so really super thankful and Dave runs a super tight ship, you know, there's not there's no money in glassing so if we can squeak out 20 bucks a bore that's what we're doing so we're trying to change it though but slowly everybody needs to do it together, right, every shape or every glass shop needs to work together And, you know, it's like, this, it's a small little, it's a small little, you know, indication of, hey, like you said, we're not better than you. Oh, I did, you know, I wrote this board with this fin set up, and I mean, that's the first 10 minutes of any conversation with him, not like, oh, however the waves, he's like, no, but I really, you know, he's just to see somebody at 77 is stoked as a 14 year old. And then they put me through, um, NCO school, which is, because they need a lot of, you know, you know, you know, so did you get it like maritory of the advanced to become an NCO or? You know, we're going to move, you know, we, we keep, keep the ability to move back and then we're reading in advance, you know, I mean, you got to think about that. Yeah, you had your quiet time to stuff you could listen to the cassette, you know, at least here's a voice or you get a care pack as you're something, you know, it's got some good cookies in it from home or something like that. The one was the escalation, looking like in terms of going from where, you know, you start Josh Hall surfboards to where, I mean, you know, obviously when you start off, you got to sell some of the boards. And Pete you know Pete's like a sick athlete you know what I mean like if he played football and he basically runs it, I just make sure that there's foam there organized, hopefully by Tuesday at noon every week because that's when we start batches, but so that, so Jeff had given me a year to kind of like, suck it out because there's no, I can't just go higher, somebody to laminate color, tint jobs, you know, I can't go, so we started putting the word out, started with my sander Wade who was working at Diamond, glassing and who's also a fry guy and so we've always gotten along and he was, well, I know, one, so he kind of put us onto a laminator and then I knew a guy that could sand and also do fins You know, I mean, it's like, you know, you got big guys, small guys. it might as well just be good for you because it has peanuts in it like brother it's like just chocolate and caramel you know like these things are not good for you I just, you know, and then what, what he could afford to get me to, you know, my first board was a broken and half guy talking along board that got fixed at Island Surf, you know, and that's what I wrote. exactly and then you finish and you're like man I can't finish like it's not you know the dude when he called diminishing returns You know after about halfway down I don't like the words say she ate it you know what does it mean that you don't like the word say she had it sounds kind of like weird well that's my grandpa he's like I don't care if you disagree you got to listen to somebody because they might have something that you don't for maybe they put it in a way you didn't think of well you can grow from that I guess to your point what as I just said hey if you're out there and you're in a more senior position reach down and help people out and if you're one of the young bucks out there then like Josh just said open your ears and have a listen because people got some good information for you and they can point you in the right direction so you don't have to learn the lessons the hard way there you go but I think it kind of crept up on you like if you would have known like I know to the scenario you'd be like And a couple of those guys said, hey, you know, I, you know, try to go to the, the, the Dell, you know, so I went down there and they go, what do you do? yeah, you know, before you know, you know, I was working to cabinet shop and then after that, I was building houses and, and then, uh, I worked for the gas company, uh, in the 80s. If I had my own little, you know, year under ground bunker and stuff, you know, because we took a lot of artillery at night and, you know, the rocket fire and everything. You live on the track with them, you know, you live in, in, in the groups, the sergeants, you know, we will get together and we'll have meetings and stuff, you know, and guys will be out on the tracks, clean, whatever they're doing. but you should never be in what I was thinking of you should it should never be like this hard like grind to the point where you're unhappy you know like no one should be on that be trained never a great thing You know, that was my big R&Rs and stuff, you know, but, uh, you know, a few people go to Hawaii. So three and a half years ago, again, Jeff McCallum, he left that one factory room back in 2009 and then that's when I went and shaped in a, in a garage in that same complex that skips in, he goes, hey, man, and he had this shop for five years ago, hey, I'm going to get out of this and, you know, the owner or whatever, you know, it's something to go on down and end of his leesey goes, I'm going to go try and buy a building. And he doesn't, you know, I got, I got burned by somebody or something like that, you know, and, and took some of his shapes and I don't really do that. Where, you know, I've got two hours where, you know, I'll go here and sure enough, you know. They were, you know, teaching you use all the weapon systems, and then you know, you know, prepare yourself for what's going on. You know, it's kind of like, you know, Johnny ain't got the gun. I didn't, you know, after, you know, the divorce and stuff, you know, I was just wandering. but I don't actually feel like when I was competing in a head like a competition like goal like I would feel that sometimes Kids like like like like me now, and he's filled in their first second third, tenth board. yeah awesome all right thanks for coming on guys thank you appreciate it thank you and we'll see you in the water all right at this point our guess Dave and Josh Hall have exited the building and awesome to talk to them and wrapping it up there you know talking about sharing what you know So would you, would you want to maybe take this over and I was like, oh, okay, well, and my business partner Dave, he and I have been talking for maybe six or seven years and how he, he's obsessed with surfing, but he comes from like the finance world, you know? Hey, can you be my, it's like, yeah, you know, hey, can you mind if I just sit over here and just watch like So after that, it was like the track lasts for like, if you've powered it on, it's like 32 seconds of, of, broad like that flying out. So you're busy doing this, you know, and Jimmy's gone, Johnny's gone, or, you know, you don't know until you get back to base camp, whether you made or not.

Most common words

Episode transcript

[00:00:00] This is Jockel Podcast number 150.
[00:00:03] With echo Charles and me, Jockel Willink.
[00:00:07] Good evening, Jockel.
[00:00:08] Good evening.
[00:00:10] And who are the young men?
[00:00:15] We are asking to go into action against such solid odds.
[00:00:22] You've met them.
[00:00:24] You know, they are the best we have.
[00:00:29] But they are not McNamara's sons or bunnies.
[00:00:33] I doubt they are yours.
[00:00:37] And they know.
[00:00:40] They know they are at the end of the pipeline that no one cares.
[00:00:48] They know.
[00:00:54] And that right there is an anonymous quote from a general in Vietnam to correspondent,
[00:01:02] war correspondent named Arthur Hayley, who is actually himself a decorated tank commander
[00:01:07] in World War II who enlisted in the Army.
[00:01:12] And there's a key word I said there, you know, a volunteer who voluntarily enlisted in the
[00:01:18] Army in World War II.
[00:01:20] And in Vietnam, in Vietnam, you hear a lot about the draftees in Vietnam.
[00:01:29] And in fact, 25% of the forces that fought in Vietnam were draftees.
[00:01:37] And draftees accounted for 30% of the deaths in Vietnam.
[00:01:46] Now on this podcast, we've heard from a bunch of those volunteers, a bunch of those
[00:01:53] career soldiers, Marines that fought in Vietnam.
[00:01:58] But tonight we're honored to have someone on the podcast that was not necessarily a volunteer
[00:02:09] and that was not necessarily looking to be in the military for a career, but who nonetheless
[00:02:17] stepped up and did his job for our country.
[00:02:23] And once he served his time, he came home and lived his life.
[00:02:30] And he had a son.
[00:02:32] And his son is also joined us on the podcast and his son took a different route.
[00:02:39] He was guided by his dad, but he was guided not to war, but to the water.
[00:02:46] So we have tonight Dave Hall, Vietnam veteran, tanker, who's also the father of Josh Hall,
[00:02:56] who's a surfer, a craftsman, a surfboard, shaper and an entrepreneur.
[00:03:03] And I think we're looking forward to this at least I am.
[00:03:06] So welcome to the show, both of you.
[00:03:08] Thanks for coming on, Josh Dave, awesome to have you.
[00:03:11] It's a honor.
[00:03:12] Yeah.
[00:03:13] Thanks for coming out here from Hawaii.
[00:03:16] I know most people don't want to leave Hawaii.
[00:03:19] No.
[00:03:20] I knew there.
[00:03:21] But I'm glad we were able to drag you out here.
[00:03:23] No, it was a burden on me.
[00:03:25] But I'd love to see my son.
[00:03:29] Awesome.
[00:03:30] Awesome, Josh, thanks for coming on.
[00:03:31] Thank you, Josh.
[00:03:32] That stoked.
[00:03:33] I know we've been seeing each other in the water for a while and at contests and whatnot.
[00:03:38] So it's good we linked up and have this opportunity come on and talk about talking about
[00:03:45] some of my favorite things.
[00:03:47] War and surfing.
[00:03:50] So Dave, we got to start with you and we always kind of try and take it back to the beginning
[00:03:54] and just kind of what your background was and where you came from.
[00:03:59] I know what you were born and born in Boston, Massachusetts.
[00:04:04] What did your dad do?
[00:04:05] My dad was a my dad did many things.
[00:04:09] War or two is a pilot and B17 over in England.
[00:04:17] So that's one that just slipped under the radar.
[00:04:20] Your dad was a B17 pilot and War 2.
[00:04:23] Yeah.
[00:04:24] Dang.
[00:04:25] And B24s and he always wanted to be a fighter pilot and he tried to go to the Pacific
[00:04:31] minute that never happened.
[00:04:33] I know.
[00:04:34] So anyways, married my mom and then we ended up living in Boston for a while.
[00:04:44] I mean we traveled around the country because he was still in the service in Air Force,
[00:04:49] living Texas and living in Colorado, lived in, was he a career?
[00:04:54] Army guy?
[00:04:55] Army Air Force guy?
[00:04:56] Four.
[00:04:57] Yes for a little while.
[00:04:58] Okay.
[00:04:59] I don't know exactly when he got out.
[00:05:00] He started flying for United Airlines.
[00:05:04] I know in the 50s and stuff he went to.
[00:05:07] Don't think he went to Korea.
[00:05:09] I'm lost right now.
[00:05:14] But yeah, he did an altitude of things.
[00:05:18] He was a teacher of a lawyer, a farmer.
[00:05:22] He farming Nebraska.
[00:05:23] He was born in Nebraska.
[00:05:25] We had a big branch back there.
[00:05:27] And he taught school in Nebraska.
[00:05:32] And then we had been living in San Ana until I was nine years old.
[00:05:37] I went to visit my grandfather in Nebraska and then that summer at the end of the summer
[00:05:43] and my folks entered up coming out with all the kids in the whole house.
[00:05:46] They decided not to fly for United Airlines anymore and become a farmer again.
[00:05:51] So yeah, I was kind of different.
[00:05:53] So anyways, that's yeah.
[00:05:55] Like I said, I lived in a lot of different states and stuff because of the service.
[00:05:59] But Nebraska was kind of like my favorite place.
[00:06:03] From there.
[00:06:04] Now you did you work on the farm?
[00:06:06] Oh yes.
[00:06:07] Because every kid that was up on the farm is like slave labor.
[00:06:10] Exactly.
[00:06:11] Oh absolutely.
[00:06:12] Yeah.
[00:06:13] Ten hours in the field plowing.
[00:06:15] You know, we had a cow.
[00:06:18] We had to milk every day.
[00:06:20] We called her six o'clock.
[00:06:21] Six o'clock in the morning.
[00:06:22] Six o'clock at night.
[00:06:24] And a few other cattle and we had pigs and I raised 300 chickens.
[00:06:29] And of course, I mean, you know, I had my brother and sisters and stuff right there to
[00:06:33] they all helped out.
[00:06:35] And this is when you're what like 10, 11, 12.
[00:06:37] That was 11.
[00:06:39] Yeah.
[00:06:40] I went back there at 10 and I was back there for like four or three summers.
[00:06:46] So I was 12.
[00:06:47] I think we ended up moving back to Connecticut.
[00:06:50] How long were you out there for?
[00:06:52] A year.
[00:06:53] Connecticut.
[00:06:54] And then my dad, he bought a business here in San Diego.
[00:07:01] And a haul in haul personnel.
[00:07:04] And so we moved back out here.
[00:07:07] And he found a place and we lived out in Spring Valley.
[00:07:10] And he worked downtown.
[00:07:12] He was on office down there.
[00:07:13] So yeah, it was kind of different.
[00:07:15] That's the thing you spent your high school years here in San Diego.
[00:07:18] Yeah, I started ninth grade in San Diego.
[00:07:20] Went to Mount McGill.
[00:07:21] High school.
[00:07:22] And then I graduated.
[00:07:26] Went to, I was going to college for a while and then that's after.
[00:07:31] Did you start surfing in high school?
[00:07:34] Actually when we lived in San Anand instead I didn't surf.
[00:07:37] We had mats.
[00:07:38] Oh, no.
[00:07:39] We had mats up there.
[00:07:40] I'm school.
[00:07:41] Oh yeah.
[00:07:42] So I was young then.
[00:07:44] And we'd always go down to, I'm taking me every day.
[00:07:47] You know, down me in the kids.
[00:07:51] And to Laguna Beach.
[00:07:53] Down the China Co.
[00:07:54] Down there.
[00:07:56] And broke my your drum down there.
[00:07:58] That was a matter of fact.
[00:08:00] Yeah.
[00:08:01] But anybody see that.
[00:08:02] And then I started surfing, you know, tenth grade.
[00:08:06] I don't know ninth grade and stuff.
[00:08:07] But yeah, we, when we first came out here and stuff, I thought we were going to move to the
[00:08:12] beach.
[00:08:13] We stayed at the San Diego motel right down there on the cross from in and out.
[00:08:20] Yeah, yeah.
[00:08:21] And we stayed there until my dad found a house to live in.
[00:08:24] Yeah.
[00:08:25] So, you know, I go to the beach then.
[00:08:27] You know, walk to the beach.
[00:08:28] Oh, yeah.
[00:08:29] Yeah.
[00:08:30] That's what everyone thinks.
[00:08:31] Well, people that don't live in California think all of California is like Baywatch.
[00:08:37] That's the answer.
[00:08:38] Yeah, I would like to realize that there's, you know, massive, I mean, obviously there's
[00:08:41] massive swaths of land, but agriculture is huge.
[00:08:44] You know, you'd go up the, you'd just drive by farm after farm after farm after farm,
[00:08:47] so much in California as far as.
[00:08:50] And, but people think everything in California is just Baywatch.
[00:08:53] It's not.
[00:08:54] It comes close sometimes.
[00:08:58] But then you, so you, but you went to high school here and you, you did surf, but you
[00:09:04] weren't able to get to the water that much.
[00:09:06] Hmm, quite a bit actually.
[00:09:08] Yeah, I had a, I had a, my dad bought me a 53 Chevy, 54 Chevy $2 and stuff.
[00:09:16] So I ripped out the back seats, I get my boards in there.
[00:09:19] And then I got my sister's car, if you had a station wagon, it was a 57 Ford, 2-door
[00:09:26] Deluxe, you know, it was, you know, the whole thing.
[00:09:29] That was a surf wagon.
[00:09:30] Oh, yeah.
[00:09:31] And now, so me and the boys, you know.
[00:09:33] So I was wrong.
[00:09:34] You actually got to the water a lot.
[00:09:36] Yeah.
[00:09:37] Yeah.
[00:09:38] Yeah, quite a bit.
[00:09:40] Yeah.
[00:09:41] You, you wrestled, you, you, you know, high school.
[00:09:44] Yeah.
[00:09:45] I was mostly on the, I was on the swim team.
[00:09:48] I dove and I swam and my fault, you know, somebody said, can anybody do the butterfly
[00:09:54] and go, yeah, I can't.
[00:09:55] Right on early.
[00:09:56] So you're the butterfly guy.
[00:09:58] Right.
[00:09:59] So, and then, so during this time period, were you paying attention?
[00:10:04] I mean, obviously your dad was, you know, out of the military, but you had that connection
[00:10:08] to the military.
[00:10:09] Were you paying attention in those years?
[00:10:12] Now we're talking, this is like the mid 60s.
[00:10:15] Are you paying attention?
[00:10:16] What's happening?
[00:10:17] You Vietnam?
[00:10:18] You're just, you're focused on, just, yeah, just life is right now.
[00:10:22] Right.
[00:10:23] Right.
[00:10:24] Right.
[00:10:25] Right.
[00:10:26] Right.
[00:10:27] Right.
[00:10:28] Yeah.
[00:10:29] It wasn't really on my radar.
[00:10:30] Yeah.
[00:10:31] And then you graduate and you're figure, you're going to go to college for a bit.
[00:10:34] Yeah.
[00:10:35] Well, you went to Grossman Junior College at graduate high school?
[00:10:39] Yeah, in the 1966.
[00:10:42] Oh, yeah.
[00:10:43] So Vietnam was still relatively.
[00:10:46] Yeah.
[00:10:47] Yeah.
[00:10:48] I mean, they started with the injury.
[00:10:49] The Bavaria Drain Valley was in 1965 and that was kind of like the big first spike
[00:10:53] in active, when I don't want to say that.
[00:10:56] But it was definitely a highlight to start hitting the news more.
[00:10:59] Right.
[00:11:00] And that was in 65.
[00:11:01] So you graduated in 66.
[00:11:03] I mean, there was talk, you know, I read it drafts and the drafts and stuff like that.
[00:11:06] I wasn't like, you know, like I said, I didn't really pay attention to it.
[00:11:11] Yeah.
[00:11:12] Just surfing.
[00:11:13] Yeah.
[00:11:14] Yeah.
[00:11:15] Surfing and distract you from all kinds of the world's problems.
[00:11:17] Right.
[00:11:18] Which is a good thing.
[00:11:19] Yeah.
[00:11:20] So then, so then you roll to Grossman College you're there.
[00:11:24] Yeah.
[00:11:25] And now, are you, are you starting to become more aware of the draft at this point?
[00:11:31] Hmm.
[00:11:32] No.
[00:11:33] No.
[00:11:34] Because I, I snowsky to lots.
[00:11:35] So, you know, there's a lot of activity.
[00:11:37] And I belong to the ski club there at Grossman.
[00:11:39] And you know, so we go to Squaw Valley, heaven laying and and ski a lot.
[00:11:44] So no, I still don't really think about it.
[00:11:47] I didn't think about it until I saw my mom pull an envelope.
[00:11:51] And she said, hey, you got something in the government.
[00:11:54] And what was your reaction to that?
[00:11:56] I can't go to Mozlon.
[00:11:58] Yeah.
[00:12:01] So I mean, it was.
[00:12:02] So we hit you that.
[00:12:04] It was that unexpected for you when you got that when you got your draft notice.
[00:12:08] Yeah.
[00:12:09] Yeah.
[00:12:10] Did you know any other guys that have been drafted?
[00:12:12] Oh, yeah.
[00:12:13] The class before me and stuff.
[00:12:15] No, I didn't like Jim Tominson, a great guy.
[00:12:18] He was 25th Ampheterio there and stuff.
[00:12:21] They came back with all the worst stories.
[00:12:23] So I take that back.
[00:12:24] I was aware of it.
[00:12:25] You know, because all these guys are coming back and talking about it.
[00:12:28] But I never thought, you know, me.
[00:12:31] I didn't worry about going.
[00:12:33] Yeah.
[00:12:34] So then when you got it, what was your reaction when you got it?
[00:12:38] I was going to go, I guess.
[00:12:41] Yeah.
[00:12:42] It was either that, you know, or run and hide.
[00:12:46] And I thought, well, you know, if we make it the Mozlon,
[00:12:49] that's not a bad place to be.
[00:12:51] I know if I could survive down there.
[00:12:53] So, and then I said, no, no, I got to do it.
[00:12:57] Yeah.
[00:12:58] It was a little bit scary, but, you know, I was looking forward to things.
[00:13:02] And I mean, I just look forward to going on over there.
[00:13:05] But I mean, it's kind of different.
[00:13:07] And I don't want to try it.
[00:13:09] So what was a shock to your system like, you know, this going from the surfing,
[00:13:14] skiing and Mozlon life to checking into boot camp?
[00:13:20] Well, you had to go through the process and get, you know, to go to the draft floor
[00:13:25] now, like, like, did that and then came back.
[00:13:27] And then had to go on the second time for something.
[00:13:31] And then that was when we ended up getting on a bus and going to four or
[00:13:36] and it was like, whoa, you just locked in, you know, you don't,
[00:13:40] no place to go.
[00:13:42] And now, this is 68.
[00:13:44] So now we're talking, I mean, it's things have inflamed in Vietnam.
[00:13:49] And it's, I mean, there's a lot of casualties happening.
[00:13:53] And, you know, from your perspective, you must've been thinking,
[00:13:56] hey, you might not have been thinking about it as much before.
[00:13:59] You know, all of a sudden you're wearing a uniform and there's people coming home.
[00:14:02] You know, people getting killed every day over in the Netherlands.
[00:14:05] Yeah, yeah, yeah, at the front of the cave home, or didn't got a home.
[00:14:08] You know, the told me about it, you know, other friends and stuff.
[00:14:12] But I mean, it was like, of course, when you get in basic and stuff,
[00:14:16] they got, they got you.
[00:14:18] They know.
[00:14:19] They pretty much got you.
[00:14:22] And you either go along with a program or they make you go along with a program,
[00:14:26] or they go and they end up going along with a program.
[00:14:29] Did you see guys that were, you know, that showed up that realize what they got into
[00:14:34] and would act crazy or, you know, yeah, yeah, you had all sorts of people.
[00:14:39] One thing about the draft, you had every walk a life.
[00:14:44] I mean, you have every walk a life in military and anything.
[00:14:47] You know, they come from all over, but the draft picks them out of the bushes.
[00:14:51] You know, I mean, it's like, you know, you got big guys, small guys.
[00:14:55] You got older guys.
[00:14:56] Now I was lucky because I was a little bit older.
[00:14:58] And most of the guys, like, when I was in Vietnam, or a lot younger than I was,
[00:15:02] I mean, other than, I mean, the guys that were with me.
[00:15:06] And by older you were, I was 21.
[00:15:09] Yeah.
[00:15:10] Oh, man.
[00:15:11] Yeah.
[00:15:12] Yeah.
[00:15:13] It's something's back, yeah.
[00:15:14] Yeah.
[00:15:15] You know, whenever I go down the corn auto and I see the seals that they see.
[00:15:19] And, you know, I'll be with my wife or go to corn auto.
[00:15:22] And you can't help, you know, see the seals on the beach or whatever.
[00:15:25] And you can't help, my wife can't help herself from saying, they look so young.
[00:15:29] They look like little kids.
[00:15:30] Yeah.
[00:15:30] That's the same with me when I was 19.
[00:15:32] You know, that's what I, that's what I was.
[00:15:34] So yeah, when you're 19, you're so old when you're 18, you're so old.
[00:15:37] And you're looking at someone that's 21.
[00:15:39] Yeah.
[00:15:40] They're like the oldest person in the world.
[00:15:42] Yeah.
[00:15:43] Of course, all the other categories and stuff were all lot older.
[00:15:46] You know, like.
[00:15:48] And, and did you, did you have any choice in what your MOS was going to be?
[00:15:54] You have a good question.
[00:15:56] No.
[00:15:57] We made it through big basic training.
[00:16:02] Sergeant Patterson was my, in Surrealms Trucker.
[00:16:06] Great guy.
[00:16:07] And then towards the end, they came out and they had this chart.
[00:16:11] They've always named on it 11, 11, 11, 11, 11, 11, 11, 11, 11, 11, 11, 11, 11, 11.
[00:16:15] And they saw me and Bob Jickba.
[00:16:17] It was 11 echo.
[00:16:19] And we asked one of the sergeants to walk him high.
[00:16:22] I go, but it's 11 echo.
[00:16:25] What is that?
[00:16:26] Right now, because we know 11 Bravo is infantry.
[00:16:29] And he goes, what are you going to be tanker?
[00:16:31] I go, cool.
[00:16:32] We're going to drive trucks.
[00:16:34] You know, I farm background, tractor, whatever, you know.
[00:16:38] And he goes, no, no, because I figure a tanker truck.
[00:16:41] Yeah.
[00:16:42] Oh, my mind.
[00:16:43] You know, I was going to hold a shoot.
[00:16:46] And they can know you want to tank.
[00:16:51] But still didn't quite get it.
[00:16:54] Yeah.
[00:16:55] So in that respect, I go, okay, fine.
[00:16:58] And only two of us, I don't like 210 guys or something.
[00:17:01] Had 11 echo.
[00:17:02] A couple of guys went to the APC schools.
[00:17:07] You know, I figured what they call it.
[00:17:09] And it was 11 echo.
[00:17:10] So a year or something like that.
[00:17:13] I don't know.
[00:17:14] Yeah.
[00:17:15] Would, would, like you talked about the guys that are put you through basic.
[00:17:19] These guys were guys coming back from Vietnam.
[00:17:22] Was the tone of basic training like, hey, you guys are going to Vietnam.
[00:17:28] You need to be ready?
[00:17:30] Yes.
[00:17:31] You had to, yeah, we knew where something was going to happen.
[00:17:36] Yeah.
[00:17:37] And, you know, like, towards the end of basic training,
[00:17:43] and stuff they sent us to the sea this film.
[00:17:45] And it was John Wayne movie.
[00:17:48] What was the name of, um, I don't know.
[00:17:53] You're good at that.
[00:17:55] That was Jimmy Lewis here, yeah.
[00:17:57] Um, I wonder if John Wayne movie.
[00:18:00] You guys never saw it.
[00:18:02] I'm sure I have it.
[00:18:03] He's in Vietnam, is general.
[00:18:05] Oh, no.
[00:18:06] Oh, it's good.
[00:18:08] Guy.
[00:18:09] Anyways, I'll think of it.
[00:18:10] But that's what they did this.
[00:18:11] They sent a sea of movie.
[00:18:13] It was, you know, we got to go have a couple beers and go see the movie
[00:18:16] and then back.
[00:18:18] And then after that, we, um,
[00:18:21] came home.
[00:18:23] I don't know after basic training.
[00:18:25] So that, that movie was their way of kind of,
[00:18:28] letting you know what's going to kind of happen to you.
[00:18:32] Yeah.
[00:18:33] Why can't I think of that?
[00:18:35] Did they?
[00:18:36] Was it, did you feel like the training that you,
[00:18:38] they put you through?
[00:18:39] So, I mean, obviously boot camp is boot camp and you're going to get yelled at.
[00:18:43] You're going to do pushups.
[00:18:44] When you got done with boot camp and they were putting you through today.
[00:18:47] The Army, they go through.
[00:18:49] They likely.
[00:18:50] They like the AIT.
[00:18:51] Yeah.
[00:18:51] So did you go through something like AIT?
[00:18:53] I did.
[00:18:54] I went through AIT in Fort Knox.
[00:18:56] That's where the tank school is.
[00:18:58] And then they put me through, um,
[00:19:01] NCO school, which is,
[00:19:04] because they need a lot of,
[00:19:05] you know,
[00:19:10] you know,
[00:19:11] you know,
[00:19:11] so did you get it like maritory of the advanced to become an NCO or?
[00:19:14] Sorry.
[00:19:16] It's hard to say,
[00:19:17] I guess,
[00:19:18] you know,
[00:19:19] whatever your aptitude is to do things.
[00:19:21] Yeah, so was, was that advanced school that they put you through,
[00:19:24] was that was it good training?
[00:19:26] Were you?
[00:19:27] Oh, actually training.
[00:19:28] Yeah.
[00:19:29] So you were pushed hard.
[00:19:30] They were, you know, teaching you use all the weapon systems,
[00:19:33] and then you know,
[00:19:35] you know,
[00:19:37] prepare yourself for what's going on.
[00:19:39] I mean, radio operations,
[00:19:41] you know,
[00:19:42] commanding controls and, you know, things like that.
[00:19:45] So I mean, things I didn't,
[00:19:47] had no idea what I was doing,
[00:19:49] but yeah,
[00:19:50] it worked out pretty good.
[00:19:51] Yeah.
[00:19:52] No,
[00:19:52] it's,
[00:19:53] it's always interesting to hear the way they prepare guys for combat.
[00:19:56] Yeah, because we,
[00:19:57] we went and became like E4s.
[00:20:01] And then, and then we'll be graduated already five.
[00:20:04] You know, so you're sergeant, right away?
[00:20:06] Yeah.
[00:20:07] And then after you graduate from that school,
[00:20:10] I started training on tanks.
[00:20:13] I get different, different guys.
[00:20:15] Lucky me, I got the National Guard guys from California,
[00:20:18] on my tank, which was kind of,
[00:20:20] you know, they said,
[00:20:21] all year from California,
[00:20:22] training these guys.
[00:20:23] So I said, okay, well,
[00:20:24] I'll do it.
[00:20:25] Pretty good guys.
[00:20:27] And then you come home,
[00:20:28] and then they give you leave after you get done with all that.
[00:20:30] Yeah,
[00:20:32] we went through,
[00:20:33] I don't know what was it.
[00:20:35] Um,
[00:20:38] some more advanced training and stuff.
[00:20:40] Anyways,
[00:20:41] I felt,
[00:20:42] I felt asleep in class one day,
[00:20:44] you know,
[00:20:44] and we were getting,
[00:20:45] it's getting towards like Christmas time,
[00:20:47] and stuff everybody's going to get to go home.
[00:20:49] And this one lieutenant,
[00:20:51] I guess,
[00:20:52] because I,
[00:20:53] I just nodded off.
[00:20:54] I mean,
[00:20:54] we've been on this,
[00:20:55] just drill,
[00:20:56] boom, boom, boom,
[00:20:57] you know.
[00:20:58] So you went through one of this classes,
[00:21:00] and I,
[00:21:01] I nodded off,
[00:21:02] and the guy goes wrong.
[00:21:03] Sorry,
[00:21:04] you're not going to go home.
[00:21:05] Get out of my class.
[00:21:06] So I went back and I talked to,
[00:21:08] my sergeant major,
[00:21:10] and then he went and talked to some Colonel,
[00:21:13] and then they went,
[00:21:14] I guess it went all the way to Patelian,
[00:21:16] or something like that,
[00:21:17] and they said,
[00:21:18] no,
[00:21:19] he's going to go home.
[00:21:20] He finished the class,
[00:21:21] and so they let me back in the class,
[00:21:23] and I finished it up,
[00:21:25] and it was kind of like,
[00:21:27] oh, good.
[00:21:28] I get to go home for Christmas.
[00:21:29] And was that Christmas,
[00:21:30] your pre-deployment leave?
[00:21:31] Was it,
[00:21:32] um,
[00:21:33] was that just,
[00:21:34] no,
[00:21:35] it was just a two week break,
[00:21:37] and then I came home.
[00:21:39] That's,
[00:21:40] in February or March,
[00:21:43] I know I was home for my birthday.
[00:21:45] It's kind of hard for me to win, right?
[00:21:47] I'm not sure,
[00:21:48] but I know I left here,
[00:21:49] like April 15th,
[00:21:50] I think it was,
[00:21:51] and that was,
[00:21:52] to go to Vietnam.
[00:21:53] Yeah.
[00:21:54] Yeah.
[00:21:54] Yeah.
[00:21:55] What was,
[00:21:55] I want to miss a flight,
[00:21:56] because I was great.
[00:21:58] It was a,
[00:21:58] it was great.
[00:21:59] It was a,
[00:22:00] it was a flight.
[00:22:01] Yeah.
[00:22:02] So they held the plane for me.
[00:22:03] Okay.
[00:22:04] What was that, I said.
[00:22:05] Yeah.
[00:22:06] Where you,
[00:22:07] you came home,
[00:22:08] was that?
[00:22:09] What was the mood like when you were going over to Vietnam?
[00:22:11] You're saying goodbye to your family,
[00:22:12] and you're saying goodbye to your mom,
[00:22:14] and,
[00:22:14] Yeah.
[00:22:15] That was,
[00:22:16] we had a pretty good party,
[00:22:18] and one night.
[00:22:19] And,
[00:22:21] uh,
[00:22:22] my next door neighbor had this beautiful rose garden,
[00:22:24] and his whole garden stuff.
[00:22:26] You know,
[00:22:27] there's guys sleeping out there,
[00:22:28] and went through a couple of K.A.
[00:22:28] and also it turned out pretty good.
[00:22:32] And, uh,
[00:22:33] so, yeah,
[00:22:34] there was a little bit of moments,
[00:22:36] you know,
[00:22:37] where you were kind of a little anxious and stuff.
[00:22:39] You know,
[00:22:39] and I talked to my mom,
[00:22:41] and she was a Army nurse.
[00:22:44] You know,
[00:22:45] so she kind of knew what was going on.
[00:22:47] I bet that had to be way harder on your mom
[00:22:49] that was on you.
[00:22:50] Yeah,
[00:22:51] I didn't know that.
[00:22:52] You know,
[00:22:53] I'm not going to happen with it.
[00:22:54] Yeah.
[00:22:55] I mean,
[00:22:56] I don't know,
[00:22:57] when I was young and even when I was older.
[00:22:59] I was always like,
[00:23:01] hey,
[00:23:02] you know,
[00:23:02] we're kind of indestructible,
[00:23:04] and especially when you're young.
[00:23:05] Oh, sure.
[00:23:06] You're like,
[00:23:06] hey,
[00:23:07] I'm going to go over there.
[00:23:08] We're going to kick ass.
[00:23:09] That's what's going to happen.
[00:23:10] And it can be a little,
[00:23:11] but,
[00:23:12] but,
[00:23:12] especially if your mom was an Army nurse.
[00:23:14] Yeah.
[00:23:15] And so she's seen all kinds of stuff.
[00:23:17] I see to clear a lot of the wounded soldiers.
[00:23:19] Yeah,
[00:23:20] so that had to be way harder for her.
[00:23:22] She was a family.
[00:23:23] She didn't show it though.
[00:23:24] Yeah,
[00:23:25] She didn't show it though.
[00:23:26] Yeah,
[00:23:27] She didn't show it though.
[00:23:28] Yeah,
[00:23:29] She gave me a little book.
[00:23:31] Um.
[00:23:36] Sorry.
[00:23:37] It's all right.
[00:23:38] It's all right, man.
[00:23:39] It's all right, man.
[00:23:42] You still have the book?
[00:23:43] I do someplace.
[00:23:44] I do someplace.
[00:23:45] I always was a little saying.
[00:23:47] It says,
[00:23:48] I don't have a song.
[00:23:50] I'm so proud of that.
[00:23:52] I just am proud of what I'm going to do.
[00:23:54] I'm proud of that.
[00:23:55] And so,
[00:23:55] is it be part of the answer or not?
[00:23:56] The problem.
[00:23:57] And I always kept that,
[00:23:58] with me.
[00:23:59] Well,
[00:24:00] that's some,
[00:24:01] that's some unbelievable advice right there.
[00:24:02] Yeah.
[00:24:03] Yeah,
[00:24:03] Yeah.
[00:24:04] That's great advice for any situation.
[00:24:05] Yeah,
[00:24:06] Sorry.
[00:24:07] No,
[00:24:08] It's all good.
[00:24:09] Let it out, man.
[00:24:10] It's all good.
[00:24:11] So,
[00:24:12] when you see,
[00:24:14] so you find the,
[00:24:15] the commercial plane over to Vietnam?
[00:24:16] I,
[00:24:16] Or is it chartered plane?
[00:24:17] No,
[00:24:18] No, it was a commercial, I didn't know what airlines it was,
[00:24:23] yeah, but it was a commercial plane.
[00:24:25] And was there a bunch of other guys going to Vietnam on it?
[00:24:27] I was all Vietnam.
[00:24:28] All of them.
[00:24:29] Yeah.
[00:24:30] We flew from Frisco or Travis or whatever it is up there.
[00:24:33] And flew to Japan, landed in the Osaka Japan.
[00:24:38] And the pile was really nice.
[00:24:40] He went around Mount Fuji and stopped for it.
[00:24:42] It's on both sides of the plane.
[00:24:44] And then from there, I went to the Tonsonuud Air Base.
[00:24:50] And again, I mean, just to point out to everyone, this is now,
[00:24:53] this is, it's 1969 yet?
[00:24:56] No.
[00:24:56] It's still 168.
[00:24:58] No, it's just 69.
[00:25:00] OK.
[00:25:00] But I made this.
[00:25:01] April 69.
[00:25:02] The height of the war in Vietnam.
[00:25:04] Yeah.
[00:25:04] Well, it was one height, yeah.
[00:25:06] Yes.
[00:25:07] Hi, you guys.
[00:25:08] Every battle was an individual battle.
[00:25:11] Yeah.
[00:25:12] It wasn't.
[00:25:12] Yeah.
[00:25:13] You've been there a done.
[00:25:14] Yeah.
[00:25:15] Yeah.
[00:25:16] Well, I haven't been in the height of the Vietnam War or any of the heights in the Vietnam War.
[00:25:21] No, no, no, no, no, no, no.
[00:25:22] I know.
[00:25:23] But I mean.
[00:25:25] And you're attitude when you show up, you get there.
[00:25:30] What was that welcome to Vietnam?
[00:25:31] You were showing me a picture earlier.
[00:25:33] And you're like, hey, this is me.
[00:25:34] I just got there.
[00:25:35] You guys, you kind of sit there.
[00:25:36] I mean, object with.
[00:25:37] It looks like you're getting some kind of an injury.
[00:25:39] Like, hey, here's what's going on.
[00:25:41] It was kind of strange.
[00:25:42] You know, the first thing you land on the ground and stuff is working my weapon.
[00:25:46] I don't know, because you're obviously in a foreign country.
[00:25:50] And in a hostile country, too.
[00:25:54] And they go, I don't worry about it.
[00:25:55] You get it.
[00:25:56] You get it.
[00:25:57] I'm okay.
[00:25:58] So then they, after that little gathering there and they said, okay, everybody
[00:26:01] jump on these.
[00:26:02] You know, actually, Bob and I got split up.
[00:26:05] He went into another company.
[00:26:06] I went into the company I went with.
[00:26:10] And it was kind of like, see ya.
[00:26:14] And so they threw us on the back of a dozen of half.
[00:26:18] And then we went to a, yeah, it was a name.
[00:26:24] I should get the name of the places right.
[00:26:26] Anyway, it was another staging area.
[00:26:28] And you're driving through these villages and stuff.
[00:26:31] And it's like, whoa.
[00:26:32] And you still can have a weapon.
[00:26:33] You don't have a weapon.
[00:26:35] You got one guy up there, you know, out of the,
[00:26:38] these have turrets and the dozen of half and stuff.
[00:26:40] And he's up there with the M16 stuff.
[00:26:43] And you kind of like, where's our, you know.
[00:26:46] And so you go into a staging area.
[00:26:49] And you spend a couple of weeks there.
[00:26:53] And they take you through what they called snake training.
[00:26:57] And what it is is it gets you familiar with the area.
[00:27:01] And, you know, the ants and the swamps and the, you know,
[00:27:05] the water and the rain and, you know, and all this.
[00:27:08] And they, they, they, just introduce us to a lot of different things.
[00:27:13] You know, it was interesting.
[00:27:16] Because I was a bucks sergeant.
[00:27:20] Just one class, this one class, one day they're all sitting on the bleachers.
[00:27:25] All right.
[00:27:26] And then in some Lieutenant or Captain or something says he wants you sit here and just
[00:27:30] monitor the radio.
[00:27:31] And I said, yeah, that's sure.
[00:27:34] That day the bleachers collapsed with all the guys on it.
[00:27:37] They had broken the legs and arms and it was terrible.
[00:27:40] And I was so on pool.
[00:27:42] Luck.
[00:27:43] You know, that's all it was.
[00:27:45] How long was it before when you got done with snake training?
[00:27:48] But yeah.
[00:27:49] And then they, how long was it before you actually went to the field and connected with your unit?
[00:27:54] Just like two weeks.
[00:27:55] Okay.
[00:27:56] You know, we can have two weeks, something like that.
[00:27:57] And then I got up to an area called Anlock.
[00:28:02] It was the top of the Highway 13.
[00:28:04] And I asked the first sergeant, I asked him, I said, well, how many tanks do we have?
[00:28:11] And he goes, we don't have any tanks.
[00:28:14] I go, oh, I'm a tank commander.
[00:28:17] He goes, no, don't worry about it.
[00:28:19] Because I sat in out there, it's got a turn on it and gone out front and I said, oh, okay.
[00:28:25] And then I got interviews through the flame track.
[00:28:27] Yeah.
[00:28:28] And that's a, is that a modified 113?
[00:28:30] Yeah.
[00:28:31] Yeah.
[00:28:32] 180 gallons of napalm to your legs.
[00:28:35] Yeah.
[00:28:36] So it was a, it was different.
[00:28:39] And in the hindsight, you know, I'm kind of glad I wasn't on a tank because that's
[00:28:44] one of my friend Bob.
[00:28:45] He was only in country three weeks and got hit.
[00:28:48] You know, I mean, put the new guy in the lead tank.
[00:28:50] You know, taking RPG through the coupe low and he got trapped in the legs and stuff and
[00:28:55] got sent home.
[00:28:56] I mean, I wrote in country to him numerous times.
[00:29:00] I'm going, I never got back.
[00:29:01] I never got back.
[00:29:02] Finally, his mom said, well, no, Bob's in Washington.
[00:29:06] You know, recovering from wounds.
[00:29:07] Oh, no.
[00:29:08] Yeah.
[00:29:09] Yeah.
[00:29:10] Yeah.
[00:29:11] The, um, when you, when you showed up there and, you know, you start, you start meeting
[00:29:18] your, your leadership.
[00:29:19] What, what would they like?
[00:29:21] We're, uh, that sergeant, southern one, he's E6.
[00:29:26] He was part of the, the, the flame platoon, um, and, you know, and red, big red, we call
[00:29:34] him.
[00:29:35] He's from, I think was from Virginia or something like that.
[00:29:37] He was actually the guy that taught me how to use the flame pack because it's a chemical
[00:29:41] MOS.
[00:29:42] I didn't know anything about Napon or anything like that.
[00:29:44] So there's a learning process.
[00:29:46] So I wrote, um, uh, as a gunner on the track for, no, I only told him when I first
[00:29:54] fired fight and stuff and I was a side gunner on that one.
[00:29:58] And, uh, so we learned, and it was really, it was kind of nice, you know, you go out and
[00:30:03] the first few weeks out of there and stuff.
[00:30:05] It was like, the country's beautiful.
[00:30:07] You know, don't get me wrong.
[00:30:09] And we were in a highlands, you know, so it was pretty cool.
[00:30:13] And, um, so we were going in these villages and we'd take the medics in there and they'd
[00:30:17] help the kids out and whoever needed help and stuff, you know, on the village chief and
[00:30:22] drive us off the track and going in and have both tea with them and stuff and it's a little
[00:30:26] dirt hut and, you know, so it was, uh, it was interesting.
[00:30:30] The mountain yard people.
[00:30:31] Yeah.
[00:30:32] Yeah, mountain yard is over there.
[00:30:34] Nice people.
[00:30:35] I don't think they, I didn't think they, they didn't like the news yet.
[00:30:38] I don't think they'd like to see either.
[00:30:40] But then we got along with this good.
[00:30:41] So.
[00:30:42] And so that was tough.
[00:30:43] I know you did a bunch of different, like, types of missions while you were there, like,
[00:30:50] in terms of, you did, like, look, let's just ask you like, so what are the various types
[00:30:56] of missions that you guys were doing?
[00:30:58] So one was what you just talked about.
[00:31:00] You're going out into the villages.
[00:31:01] Right.
[00:31:02] Right.
[00:31:03] Your making friends, your hand out, you know, medical supplies.
[00:31:05] Can't remember.
[00:31:06] Yeah.
[00:31:07] Yeah.
[00:31:08] Um, that we put a lot of road security and stuff and, you know, that was my first firefight.
[00:31:17] We went out to help some convoy, little up tanker trucks, field trucks, actual, actual
[00:31:24] tankers.
[00:31:25] Actors, actual tankers.
[00:31:27] Yeah.
[00:31:28] And they'd got an ambition stuff.
[00:31:30] So we went out and, you know, you tried to suppress that or we were chasing these guys
[00:31:34] down and stuff, you know.
[00:31:36] So that's your first, that's your first firefight.
[00:31:38] That was your first firefight.
[00:31:39] How'd you take that?
[00:31:40] And the reason I asked this is because we get a lot of guys that are in the military,
[00:31:44] they're going in the military and I always ask people, what were you thinking in your first
[00:31:50] firefight?
[00:31:51] So that way when they're in that situation, they have another little perspective of how
[00:31:57] to think about it.
[00:31:58] So they can be, because it's hard to get somebody prepared for that because everyone
[00:32:02] takes a little bit differently.
[00:32:03] Oh, absolutely.
[00:32:04] So I think the more different perspectives someone can hear, the better it is for.
[00:32:09] Right.
[00:32:10] So we were chasing these guys.
[00:32:12] I don't know how many they were, you know, through the, after this, they ambushed the
[00:32:17] con-white and stuff.
[00:32:18] We were chasing them down through the jungle.
[00:32:21] And pretty thick on the jungle and stuff.
[00:32:24] And it's, you know, high-brushing trees and, and.
[00:32:29] So we broke out and they tried to keep the flame track kind of in the center of things.
[00:32:35] So it kind of sent my protect and whatever.
[00:32:38] But then I ended up on the flank on the left flank when we came out of the jungle.
[00:32:43] You know, because you get in there, you get lost and you're looking around.
[00:32:45] And the tracks could power through the jungle.
[00:32:48] Yeah, because there's a lot of tree at high brush.
[00:32:51] Right.
[00:32:52] Okay, you know, head higher, you know, track high brush.
[00:32:55] There's a lot of trees.
[00:32:57] We broke out and this opening.
[00:32:58] Now it's on the flank.
[00:33:00] And we're looking across and it was a big rice patty and there's another section of
[00:33:04] jungle beyond that.
[00:33:07] And Red and I kind of look at each other and we're going, oh, they couldn't have made
[00:33:11] a crosshair that fast.
[00:33:13] And just like that, we'd turn the track back towards the jungle front and RPG.
[00:33:18] You know, hit my track right now.
[00:33:22] I said, and then a couple of guys got blown off the top.
[00:33:25] Red was still on the 50.
[00:33:27] I was on the 60.
[00:33:29] And it's just instant training jumps in.
[00:33:33] You know, I saw this, we guys that shot the RPG, you know, and just training 50 over 60
[00:33:42] on them and the Red pressure 50 over there.
[00:33:45] And then by that time everybody else had turned back towards the jungle and started
[00:33:49] leveling it.
[00:33:51] The recon outfit that I ran with, we had like five tracks.
[00:33:56] Each track had three 50s on it.
[00:34:00] One time had a 106.
[00:34:03] The track had three 50s on it.
[00:34:05] Right.
[00:34:06] Well, that's yeah.
[00:34:07] So my track, the track I was on, have one 52 60s off either side or 160 off either
[00:34:13] side.
[00:34:15] So it would be like the six tracks would be like a line company opening fire.
[00:34:21] You know, line company was, you know, 18 tracks or whatever.
[00:34:25] I don't know how many tracks that were in a line time.
[00:34:28] But we had a lot of firepower.
[00:34:30] No, a lot of firepower.
[00:34:32] And so did you feel like, like you said the training kicked in, you saw what was going
[00:34:36] on on it.
[00:34:37] Exactly.
[00:34:38] That was going on and stuff.
[00:34:39] When we got hit and stuff.
[00:34:40] And then, you know, I ripped a 60 out of the mountain jumped off the back and still
[00:34:46] firing it, you know, towards the guys and stuff.
[00:34:48] So yeah.
[00:34:50] Did you use your flame thrower?
[00:34:52] Yeah, yeah.
[00:34:53] Red shot.
[00:34:54] Yeah.
[00:34:55] Just just the encompass, you know, he shot way up over the top of the jungle.
[00:35:00] And the big circle just to make sure.
[00:35:03] So that's a scary weapon right there.
[00:35:07] Yeah, it is.
[00:35:08] Yeah, it's devastating.
[00:35:10] But in man's, always been afraid of fire.
[00:35:14] Yeah.
[00:35:15] There's a definite instinct to it that no doubt about it.
[00:35:20] Now, would you guys return back to a base when you guys got done with these operations
[00:35:25] so you'd come back to a base and yeah, we had a base camp.
[00:35:28] If I had my own little, you know, year under ground bunker and stuff, you know, because
[00:35:31] we took a lot of artillery at night and, you know, the rocket fire and everything.
[00:35:36] So we had a little underground bunkers and that was, that was, that was, that was,
[00:35:40] that was, that was, that was a good place.
[00:35:41] And while there was only place, I knew at the time.
[00:35:43] So I had to be a good place.
[00:35:45] Would you say as a good place, good in terms of the fact that you had it built up on
[00:35:48] the door, so I creature comforts there?
[00:35:50] Well, I, I, not a whole lot of creature creature comforts.
[00:35:53] It was a bunker.
[00:35:54] Yeah.
[00:35:55] Yeah.
[00:35:56] And that was comfortable.
[00:35:57] Yeah.
[00:35:58] And then we, a couple of times we'd go out and you clear areas a little bit further away
[00:36:04] from the perimeter and everything, you know, so.
[00:36:07] And then the town, and lock itself was right next door to us.
[00:36:10] Right.
[00:36:11] So it was, we'd go through that village, you know, every day.
[00:36:14] And what was the reaction from the folks that lived at local populate that lived in
[00:36:18] Amla?
[00:36:19] Were those mountain yards?
[00:36:20] You know, I don't know.
[00:36:21] I don't think they were, but I could be wrong, you know, coffee, honey.
[00:36:28] So then I, frankly, we didn't get in contact them too much.
[00:36:31] You know, we would, we were ready at that point after that, that first firefight.
[00:36:36] I mean, there was, there was a multitude of other ones.
[00:36:41] How long, how long, how long had you been on the ground before you got in that
[00:36:46] first firefight?
[00:36:47] Three weeks.
[00:36:48] So a couple of weeks of scripture.
[00:36:49] Yeah, I landed on, yeah, I landed the 15th and then I think it was May 2nd, April
[00:36:55] 15th, I landed in May 2nd, which was the first firefight.
[00:36:59] And then I know some of the notes that you sent over was like, you basically, after that
[00:37:04] first one, it was just, that was just the way it was.
[00:37:07] That was just life.
[00:37:08] That was life, yeah, afterwards.
[00:37:10] And how would you guys, would you guys take casualties often when you, when you get engagements
[00:37:17] because you had, you know, armor, it was your, was your, was your casually rate lower,
[00:37:22] you think than the regular, you know, generally.
[00:37:24] Yeah, definitely.
[00:37:25] Yeah.
[00:37:26] We were a lot better off than a lot of folks who were on the ground at that.
[00:37:29] So, one thing about, if you do take a casually, they're out of the field pretty fast.
[00:37:41] So you're busy doing this, you know, and Jimmy's gone, Johnny's gone, or, you know, you
[00:37:48] don't know until you get back to base camp, whether you made or not.
[00:37:51] So, yeah, they were pretty, I was thinking about that the other night, you know, because
[00:37:56] I was going, yeah, I don't really remember, I mean, I've seen a lot of guys get hit.
[00:38:02] They don't only do enjoying operations or something like that, not necessarily my guys,
[00:38:07] but I never lost anybody off my track.
[00:38:11] And the other tracks, maybe, maybe one, maybe two, was very low.
[00:38:17] And how much was the enemy using mines on your tracks and how effective were they?
[00:38:23] Um, they're pretty effective.
[00:38:29] Depending on where you were, I mean, we had minesweepers and stuff, it was sweep 13, highway
[00:38:34] 13, you know, all the time on which fire base they were at, and they were sweet, and
[00:38:40] we didn't, my track, not my track, but the track I had, and then I got a new one,
[00:38:47] I'd given the friend of mine Doug Dodge, and he hit a mine.
[00:38:51] Actually, the day I gave it to him, he went out of the submission, he had the other, the
[00:38:56] other flame track.
[00:38:57] And what did he did, did they lose?
[00:38:59] Just get it.
[00:39:00] No, just blew the track off.
[00:39:01] You know, I wasn't that bad.
[00:39:02] I was sitting here trying to figure out 40 pounders, like a 34 pounder.
[00:39:05] Yeah, as I'm sitting here trying to think about, because the enemy and Iraq, which is
[00:39:09] what I was, they were really good with ideas, and they would take out vehicles, not
[00:39:14] just homebies.
[00:39:15] They take out homies, they take out tanks and Bradley's, and even the, even the mine resistant
[00:39:23] vehicles, they would take those things out, because they'd put these big bombs.
[00:39:27] But how often were you guys, I'm thinking in my own head that the reason is because we
[00:39:32] were on roads.
[00:39:34] And so we were in channelized areas.
[00:39:35] You're going through a city, you're going to go down the road.
[00:39:37] There's no, you can't drive through the building.
[00:39:39] Correct.
[00:39:40] And so it sounds like if you guys were, were just driving through the jungle, driving through
[00:39:44] the rice paddies, you know, you do that.
[00:39:46] You didn't have to be in a channelized area.
[00:39:49] So there was, it would be harder for the enemy to put the bombs in the, put the mines
[00:39:53] in the right place, because they couldn't predict as well where you were going to be.
[00:39:57] Right.
[00:39:58] A lot of the roads and stuff were, we did run the roads in some areas and stuff.
[00:40:04] I mean, I saw a M60 tank, you know, you had a 500 pounder around and I didn't, you know,
[00:40:10] I'll split in half like that, and went off like this, you know, two guys live.
[00:40:14] It was pretty devastating.
[00:40:16] And that was in front of us in front of our column.
[00:40:19] But, yeah, it's, and then I saw a, it was a M47 tank, we called it a duster and it had 40
[00:40:29] millenorated palm pump guns on the side of it.
[00:40:31] And it was a mean machine.
[00:40:32] Now, and he pulled out of our base camp down in under three and before they swept the
[00:40:42] roads and he was, he was hauling out, so he didn't get hurt.
[00:40:45] All right, they blew the tracks off, but he had a mine.
[00:40:47] Yeah.
[00:40:48] So, you know, it's another thing that might have been just the technological advances for the
[00:40:54] insurgents in Iraq.
[00:40:55] You know, they had, they had radio command detonated.
[00:40:58] So, you didn't have to run wire.
[00:40:59] So it was easier for them to, to put mines out there.
[00:41:03] Yeah, we ran into a lot of places like bunker systems, stuff that they had wires and, you know,
[00:41:08] for communications and things, you know, but, yeah, the mines, I was in a situation where
[00:41:17] two tracks in front of me, we, we take this another fire fire fire, we created and stuff.
[00:41:21] We had that, we had the, they found a jump in around, let me know what I mean.
[00:41:26] Yeah, it's all good.
[00:41:29] We had, I guess they were the lead force of the South Vietnamese, a tiger group or whatever
[00:41:35] they were kind of the commandos and stuff.
[00:41:37] They threw them all on our tracks.
[00:41:39] And so, we went in this one area and we got bushed and there was nothing to RPGs flying
[00:41:46] into the air and, you know, machine gun fire and stuff.
[00:41:50] And we suppressed that.
[00:41:53] But all these guys, all the tiger group, they jumped off the track.
[00:41:56] We're going, no, no, no, don't jump off.
[00:41:58] You know, we're going to move, you know, we, we keep, keep the ability to move back and
[00:42:02] then we're reading in advance, you know, I mean, you got to think about that.
[00:42:06] They just jumped off and they got in crossfires and shooting themselves.
[00:42:10] But anyways, you talk about the, the mines.
[00:42:16] We had captured this, this one kid and he was on the captain's track.
[00:42:21] And so we were advancing, we were moving through past the area where the munkers were.
[00:42:28] And the captain's track, you know, mine.
[00:42:31] And we're just in columns, the captain's tracks here, we got the ammunition tracks, the second
[00:42:36] one, the my track.
[00:42:38] And so he hit a mine, blew the guy off and he's sitting on the side and stuff, you know,
[00:42:44] and I don't, anyways, so the track in front of me, we're going, oh, shit, they sucker
[00:42:51] just into my mind field of what they did.
[00:42:53] Because they had these mines behind the bunker system and stuff.
[00:42:57] And we still, we got in there.
[00:42:59] It's tracking front of me, all he did was traverse just a little bit like that.
[00:43:03] Bam, went off, went off.
[00:43:05] So I had a guy, I got down off the track and ground got in my track through its tracks,
[00:43:10] you know, because we all went through a column and stuff.
[00:43:13] But yeah, it was pretty hairy.
[00:43:15] So I guess I was wrong, the mines were a big threat.
[00:43:17] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
[00:43:19] Yeah, now that I think about it, yeah.
[00:43:21] Yeah, because I think the vast majority of the casualties in Iraq were from, you know,
[00:43:28] for my ideas from the outside bombs, because they were good at it.
[00:43:32] And they, it's a weapon that you can execute.
[00:43:36] Yeah, I don't see how you guys do it, man.
[00:43:37] I, that was, that was, well, I thought was scary, that when I went through.
[00:43:43] Yeah, for sure, that's the thing that there's no, there's very, a limited amount you can do
[00:43:49] to prevent it.
[00:43:50] Now, we did everything we could and, and actually, my guy has never hit a mine in,
[00:43:56] never hit an ID in, in, in, in, body.
[00:43:58] And that was just, it was amazing.
[00:44:00] You know, it was a lot of luck.
[00:44:02] Sure.
[00:44:03] You know, that's the greatest God looking out for us.
[00:44:05] Yeah.
[00:44:06] But, you know, we also were very proactive in how we planned to do, you know, our
[00:44:12] missions.
[00:44:13] We would, we would go after right after the minesweeping team would dry, would go
[00:44:17] clear.
[00:44:18] We'd go down immediately after them.
[00:44:19] And that way, and then we'd get to where we want to be.
[00:44:21] And if we had to wait a couple hours, that'd be fine.
[00:44:23] We'd wait.
[00:44:24] We would try and mitigate that risk to the best of our ability, because the mines were,
[00:44:29] were such a big threat.
[00:44:31] And it's one of those things that, yeah, once you can, I think that's what, that's what
[00:44:37] scares people the most because you have so little control over.
[00:44:40] Nothing.
[00:44:41] It's like, hey, if it happens, you're, you can do everything right.
[00:44:46] You can follow the minesweeper.
[00:44:47] Mine sweeper doesn't say everything.
[00:44:48] No.
[00:44:49] And you can follow the mine sweeper and you can still get blown up.
[00:44:51] Go off side of the road.
[00:44:52] Yeah.
[00:44:53] Look, it's, it's a, it's a definitely a scary thing.
[00:44:56] And you, you talked about the South Vietnamese guys getting in a, you know, shooting
[00:45:01] themselves, which is, I believe that's going to happen a lot less when you're an armor,
[00:45:06] because obviously it's pretty clear.
[00:45:08] It's pretty, it's a lot easier to identify.
[00:45:10] Hey, that's a friendly, because they're in 113 like we have.
[00:45:14] We're as at nighttime.
[00:45:16] Yeah.
[00:45:17] And, and we did have a situation.
[00:45:19] It wasn't, it wasn't us, but it happened.
[00:45:21] And that's, I usually use this in it as an example of how easy a blue on blue, you know,
[00:45:27] a friendly fire in, it can happen.
[00:45:29] It happened in a body where a humv shot at another humv, which again, the, the, the
[00:45:34] insurgents did not have humv's at all.
[00:45:37] Right.
[00:45:38] And to think of what the mindset is of a kid to look and see another, you know,
[00:45:43] see movement, that's a humv and take it, take some fire from shots at it.
[00:45:47] That shows you how nervous guys get and how
[00:45:50] perception at night is different and how your mind starts playing tricks on you and
[00:45:55] you think things are confusing and it can get pretty, um, yeah, well, just confusing.
[00:46:00] It's a far go.
[00:46:01] Yeah, nighttime is a kind of, you know, usually we hunker down at night, you want me to
[00:46:07] set out your trip flares and claim orders and, and all that.
[00:46:12] And why not we did that?
[00:46:15] And one of those trip flares went off.
[00:46:18] And we thought everybody was back at base camp.
[00:46:20] They were back with us, you know, and we started firing.
[00:46:25] And these guys hung her down behind a tree and they yelled and they go, whoa, whoa, it's
[00:46:29] us.
[00:46:30] And it's like, whoa, okay.
[00:46:32] I mean, the flare went off.
[00:46:33] I mean, yeah.
[00:46:34] You need to brief people when you're leaving the perimeter.
[00:46:38] Exactly.
[00:46:39] Lesson learned.
[00:46:40] Yeah, when I was running training, I was trying to make it.
[00:46:43] I would, I would inject all that confusion because I wanted the guys to have friendly fire
[00:46:49] incidents while they're in training so they recognize what the things that, the type of
[00:46:54] things that cause them.
[00:46:55] Yeah.
[00:46:56] We heard about it.
[00:46:57] We heard about it.
[00:46:58] You know, things like that.
[00:46:59] But I was never involved in that little one.
[00:47:02] Yeah, I'm not like that.
[00:47:03] Which is, which is, which is, could have wasted two guys.
[00:47:05] Yeah, absolutely.
[00:47:06] That's the scary thing.
[00:47:07] Luckily, your marksmanship was a little bit off that day.
[00:47:10] Right.
[00:47:11] They caught us to buy a surprise.
[00:47:15] What about the, you know, how about the, the arc light, the B 52 bombing?
[00:47:20] I know you were telling one story about that.
[00:47:22] Oh, yeah.
[00:47:23] That was scary.
[00:47:24] Kind of scary.
[00:47:25] We were chasing these guys and we got to call over the radio and says, hey,
[00:47:29] everybody stopped.
[00:47:30] And we were in a strike zone.
[00:47:33] I mean, what do you mean a strike zone?
[00:47:34] He says, yeah, B 52s.
[00:47:37] And they said, everybody got her down, get behind the track.
[00:47:39] You know, it's common in Bowman Boom Boom.
[00:47:42] And you can see, I've moved you look up in the sky.
[00:47:44] And there's going, whoa.
[00:47:45] And there was like five B 52s.
[00:47:47] And you could see all these 500,000 pounders of work that they're coming down.
[00:47:53] And I didn't get off the track.
[00:47:56] I mean, you know, it's a 16 ton track, you know.
[00:47:59] And what's it going to do?
[00:48:01] And sure enough, well, you know, the shockwave came and that track's rattling around and we're
[00:48:07] going, whoa, I got, you know.
[00:48:09] We saw the smoke first and then the shockwave hit.
[00:48:12] You know, it was pretty intense.
[00:48:13] I wanted to do it.
[00:48:14] One of those missions last for how one with those bombs be going off for.
[00:48:18] Oh, this particular time, you know, it was like one plane after another.
[00:48:26] And, you know, probably half hour.
[00:48:28] Wow.
[00:48:29] So, you know, 20 minutes, something like that for them to all the, to end.
[00:48:32] I'm not sure.
[00:48:33] But it's a standard period.
[00:48:35] Yeah, it's not like, yeah.
[00:48:37] Then you go and sweep the area and we found some guys in there, you know.
[00:48:40] And we saw one kind of interpreter was talking to them and stuff.
[00:48:43] And he's bleeding from his nose in his ears and his eyes.
[00:48:46] And, you know, the guys would be so alive.
[00:48:48] And he said, all the interpreters, so all you could do is every time one hit he'd bounce
[00:48:52] in the air and they'd come back down.
[00:48:54] Another one hit he'd bounce in the air.
[00:48:56] So, yeah, that was intense.
[00:48:58] We weren't that close.
[00:48:59] Yeah.
[00:49:00] And I like he was.
[00:49:01] Yeah.
[00:49:02] Who would be coordinate in that?
[00:49:03] Would you guys be coordinate in those?
[00:49:05] No.
[00:49:06] We got no idea.
[00:49:07] I mean.
[00:49:08] No.
[00:49:09] It was in a certain area or something like that.
[00:49:12] You know, then obviously we got the word.
[00:49:15] Yeah.
[00:49:16] My best friend, I mean, I don't get me wrong.
[00:49:18] I mean, the B52 strikes.
[00:49:20] They did their thing and we sweep areas.
[00:49:23] We lost a track one time in a bomb crater.
[00:49:27] That was overgrown and actually flipped and inside.
[00:49:32] And so, like I said earlier, you know, if you had known this beautiful place, you know,
[00:49:36] if it wasn't for the war, it'd be great.
[00:49:38] You know, there was a lot of bomb craters.
[00:49:44] The cobra.
[00:49:45] I got to say is our pal.
[00:49:50] I know you guys had cobras over there.
[00:49:52] You have the what are the black of the patch and patchies and patchies.
[00:49:57] The cobra pylic and stuff.
[00:49:59] They're pretty cool.
[00:50:00] Yeah.
[00:50:01] We've had a cobra pylet on the podcast.
[00:50:03] Yeah.
[00:50:04] Yeah.
[00:50:05] And he got shot down.
[00:50:06] Yeah.
[00:50:07] Yeah.
[00:50:08] The second time he got captured.
[00:50:10] Yeah.
[00:50:11] Oh.
[00:50:12] Yeah.
[00:50:13] Bravest guys, I know.
[00:50:14] They go into pretty close quarters.
[00:50:16] Yeah.
[00:50:17] They come in.
[00:50:18] They used to come right behind us.
[00:50:19] We'd be in a firefight.
[00:50:20] They come in, you know, 50 feet over your head and rockets fire.
[00:50:25] Oh.
[00:50:26] It's pretty intense.
[00:50:27] Interestingly, not only do we have still have cobras, but, you know, in in
[00:50:31] Ramadi, we had one, one, three is the same vehicle that you guys drove.
[00:50:35] We still had it.
[00:50:37] And they used it primarily for casualty evacuation.
[00:50:40] Okay.
[00:50:41] But still, I was in the back of the 113's over in Ramadi, what's that?
[00:50:45] 30 years, something later, four years later.
[00:50:47] Yeah.
[00:50:48] Using the same vehicles and the same helicopters.
[00:50:50] Why not?
[00:50:51] It worked.
[00:50:52] Yeah.
[00:50:53] Yeah.
[00:50:54] My track didn't have much room inside because of the napontanks and stuff.
[00:50:58] You know, the other one on three is they had the plenty of room.
[00:51:01] They used to, I could only carry like, 2,100 rounds or the 50 on my track.
[00:51:06] You know, they had 6,000 rounds of theirs.
[00:51:08] You know, so.
[00:51:09] How scary is it when you got your track filled with napont?
[00:51:13] I didn't think about it too much.
[00:51:15] Well, you know, I think that would have been back my head a little bit.
[00:51:17] It is.
[00:51:18] It is, you know, and I was, I, we used to play with everyone.
[00:51:24] It's going to be a while.
[00:51:25] It was funny.
[00:51:26] You should mention that because at the end of shooting it, you could, because it's
[00:51:31] gas, you have igniter's and then you have raw gasoline.
[00:51:35] And so I used to blow out these, I don't know what that, I might have a picture in there.
[00:51:40] Big bills of flame used to roll out, you know, because these pop it and then let off,
[00:51:47] you know.
[00:51:49] And we had a chemical guy come up to check out the tracks and stuff.
[00:51:55] And I was telling them what I was doing, he goes, you do what?
[00:51:59] I was like, yeah, he's played with, you know, after, after empty and stuff, you know,
[00:52:02] you can roll out this big giant, I mean, big of this room.
[00:52:05] And ball of fire.
[00:52:09] And he goes, don't ever do that again.
[00:52:12] I go, why?
[00:52:14] Because the pressure is, because I didn't know that much about die, draw, like some pressure.
[00:52:18] I learned real quick that it'll suck the flame back in, you know, blow the tanks up.
[00:52:25] I don't, whoa.
[00:52:26] So after that, it was like the track lasts for like, if you've powered it on, it's like
[00:52:33] 32 seconds of, of, broad like that flying out.
[00:52:38] And then you just get rid of the gas, the air.
[00:52:41] I don't know, so I think it's 2700 psi or something like that.
[00:52:45] So yeah, you're virtually a bomb.
[00:52:47] They're ready to happen.
[00:52:48] Yeah, like I said, I think that would have been in the back of my mind a little bit.
[00:52:52] And you took an RPG, how did that not do massive damage?
[00:52:57] Well, the tracks are aluminum.
[00:53:00] Yeah.
[00:53:01] So once our RPG's ignited, you had that rod that comes out.
[00:53:05] And it just went through the back end and out of it.
[00:53:08] So it did it moving through.
[00:53:09] Yeah, right through.
[00:53:10] So it must, it must not have detonated or something.
[00:53:13] Oh, it detonated.
[00:53:14] Oh, really?
[00:53:15] Yeah.
[00:53:16] So you had a trap in all, and I can show you a picture of it all the ammo that I had in
[00:53:18] the back.
[00:53:19] There's all blown up and it scarred the tank.
[00:53:22] And went out over the top of the track, you know, on the right right rear side.
[00:53:27] Yeah, we're just lucky.
[00:53:31] Rather be lucky than good.
[00:53:32] Yeah.
[00:53:33] Yeah.
[00:53:34] And how about the, how well did the tank work in the junglers far as like once it was
[00:53:40] once the rainy season comes in?
[00:53:42] Thanks.
[00:53:43] Yeah, or even the tracks.
[00:53:44] The tank use.
[00:53:45] The mud and stuff was kind of tough.
[00:53:49] Yeah, it was tough.
[00:53:51] They took our neutral steer.
[00:53:53] We didn't have that.
[00:53:58] You just had the ladders and stuff to use because the neutral steer, you got one track going
[00:54:00] on the way and one track going the other.
[00:54:02] And they'd throw tracks pretty easy in the mud.
[00:54:05] Yeah.
[00:54:06] So it was just right or left.
[00:54:09] Yeah.
[00:54:10] Or back up.
[00:54:11] Yeah.
[00:54:12] And then, so you got, you ended up getting wounded.
[00:54:15] What, how do you wounded?
[00:54:18] I don't know whether it's strapped up from from the RPG or we opened the breach of
[00:54:23] the 50 and a 50 cow blew up in my face.
[00:54:26] And you know, because we were firing so many rounds of stuff and you get cookoffs.
[00:54:31] And you know, just cooked off and we thought it was done.
[00:54:34] It wasn't booming and blew me off the track.
[00:54:36] So it wasn't it.
[00:54:38] I went to the medic, you know, because I had to go hit in the eye.
[00:54:42] Yeah.
[00:54:43] It wasn't like I got shot or.
[00:54:45] Yeah.
[00:54:46] So it was a shot.
[00:54:47] Relatively minor.
[00:54:48] Yeah.
[00:54:49] Absolutely.
[00:54:50] Absolutely.
[00:54:51] Well, we'll think we'll be thinking.
[00:54:52] We'll be thankful about that one.
[00:54:54] Yeah.
[00:54:55] Then it was a lie.
[00:54:56] Yeah.
[00:54:57] Yeah.
[00:54:58] When you would stay out, how long would you guys stay out in the field for?
[00:55:02] The longest we did was probably about.
[00:55:07] I'd say six weeks.
[00:55:09] I thought you were going to say like, you know, a few days, three, four days, six weeks.
[00:55:13] That's what we were moving.
[00:55:15] And you guys would live out of your tracks.
[00:55:17] You guys must've gotten good at living out of your tracks.
[00:55:19] Yeah.
[00:55:20] If you had everything on there.
[00:55:21] Everything on.
[00:55:22] Would you get it?
[00:55:23] Night?
[00:55:24] Would you sleep in the tracks?
[00:55:25] Hmm.
[00:55:26] Like I usually like it was raining or something like that.
[00:55:28] I throw a poncho up over the track and tie it down.
[00:55:32] I live, I sleep on one of the stretchers that we carried.
[00:55:35] And also.
[00:55:36] And how many guys were in the track?
[00:55:38] Was it signed to you and your track?
[00:55:40] We had.
[00:55:41] Most of the, uh, Recontracts had five guys on it.
[00:55:45] Uh, I had a driver, main gunner and two other guys and four guys.
[00:55:50] And at first mine was like that.
[00:55:53] And so we had four.
[00:55:56] You know.
[00:55:57] When you looked at it from like the big picture of what you guys were doing over there.
[00:56:01] Did you feel like, hey, we're making progress.
[00:56:05] Did you feel like, hey, we're just trying to get by.
[00:56:08] Did you get any strategic guidance from up the chain of command?
[00:56:11] Like, hey, this is our purpose for being here.
[00:56:14] Hmm.
[00:56:15] That's the tough question.
[00:56:18] Each day was different.
[00:56:21] We would have missions that we would go on.
[00:56:24] And sometimes we get hit, sometimes we wouldn't.
[00:56:27] And those missions could just be going into an area and checking it out.
[00:56:32] Um, as far as.
[00:56:36] A compilet chain things, you know.
[00:56:43] It was an individual thing.
[00:56:45] And I mean, it was not an individual like my, myself or anything.
[00:56:49] But I mean, as a group, you just, you know, go away.
[00:56:53] They told you to and do what you could.
[00:56:55] Yeah, it was, uh,
[00:56:59] You're talking about is there an end result that we saw or.
[00:57:02] Yeah, I mean, I guess I'm just asking, especially from like a leadership perspective.
[00:57:06] You know, I always talk about the fact that if your frontline troops don't really know what they're doing or why they're doing.
[00:57:14] It, then eventually they're, they don't see any purpose in what they're doing.
[00:57:18] And that's where you start getting negative reactions.
[00:57:20] You know, when is that least if you say, hey, look, this is what we're trying to get done today.
[00:57:24] We're trying to get this area cleared.
[00:57:25] We're trying to, this is going to contribute to this.
[00:57:27] I was six or something like that on that respect.
[00:57:29] Yes.
[00:57:30] Yeah, but I mean, there's a big picture like the whole country and stuff.
[00:57:33] No, I didn't, we didn't think too much about that.
[00:57:35] But are individual things?
[00:57:37] Yeah.
[00:57:38] Okay.
[00:57:39] We know there's a bunker complex over here.
[00:57:40] We're going to go into it.
[00:57:41] Yeah.
[00:57:45] So you plan that strategically.
[00:57:47] I mean, you have people out there.
[00:57:49] We have to work since stuff.
[00:57:51] You know, but alert us of certain areas, hot spots or intelligence and come down.
[00:57:54] Say, okay, there's a thousand troops coming down through the misselin or there's a thousand troops coming out of the Highlands or there's a hundred troops over here.
[00:58:01] You know, that gets your blood pumping because we're only six tracks.
[00:58:08] Well, we worked with 11th cow and I think it was a first 28th or something.
[00:58:15] We worked with this instead.
[00:58:16] We worked with other companies too.
[00:58:19] They would utilize us to go help them or we would help us or, you know, we were, that's when we were like a regular ready reactionary force.
[00:58:29] You know, you go out and you know, base gang got hit in the middle of the night.
[00:58:33] So you're up at two o'clock in the morning trying to gather all your troops and stuff out of their bunkers to
[00:58:37] run a road down to some base camp that's eventually going to get either overrun or, you know, they're blown through the wire and they're coming inside the compound and stuff.
[00:58:48] So we're going to reinforce that.
[00:58:50] That had to be a tough, tough kind of operation right there just down the deconfliction between, you know, if you got bad guys that are inside the wire.
[00:58:59] No, that's an nasty. That's a scary thing.
[00:59:02] Yeah.
[00:59:03] When you go into that, what are your, what's your thought process going into that?
[00:59:07] Um, check yourself and the guys are found here. That's all you could do.
[00:59:11] You know, I mean, it's just, uh, try to figure out where you, the area they're coming in through, you know, they use a bangler or torpedoes and stuff, blow holes in a wire and then they run on through.
[00:59:22] And then, you know, then, okay, you're going to concentrate in that area.
[00:59:26] Right on, so if a few of them get through, they get through it.
[00:59:30] I mean, you have it, other infantry on the ground and stuff that they're dug in, you know, they're taking care of themselves.
[00:59:36] So they kind of know what's going on.
[00:59:38] It's kind of like, you don't know everything that's going on, but you can see around you what's happening.
[00:59:43] So, uh, you try to diffuse that.
[00:59:47] Did you guys, well, you guys would come back to base and you'd be in bonkers. You'd still been the field. You'd still be getting artillery, you know, rocked with artillery and...
[00:59:57] They're rockets usually, uh, rockets too. Oh, great.
[01:00:01] Yeah.
[01:00:02] Uh, when you guys would you ever get, um, during your time there, would they ever let you go back to somewhere where you could get a break and get some R&R?
[01:00:11] Um, they had any in, yeah, yeah.
[01:00:16] Our longer missions and stuff, they'd, they'd do a little stand down and, you know, for three days or something, you know, go drink yourself silly and swim in the pool and...
[01:00:26] Where would you go for that?
[01:00:28] You know, I don't know exactly where it was. It was someplace in the country.
[01:00:31] It's like down at, uh, like hair or just outside psych on.
[01:00:37] So occasionally you get, they'd give you a little breather.
[01:00:40] Yeah, not much. You know, I mean, I went to Thailand and I went to Australia.
[01:00:44] You know, that was my big R&Rs and stuff, you know, but, uh, you know, a few people go to Hawaii.
[01:00:50] And I never, you know, I didn't want to do that. They'd come back and see their folks and stuff. It was kind of scary.
[01:00:57] Yeah, you mean, it's scary for the fact that it's like, you know, what happens is, especially if you...
[01:01:05] When we communicate with our people back here, as usually, by the letter Tate, you know, a cassette tape and they chalk and we chalk and send it in the mail and stuff, you know.
[01:01:19] And so the guys that left and went to see, like, their loved ones and stuff like in Hawaii and stuff.
[01:01:27] When they came back, their heads not, you know, it's not there.
[01:01:30] You know, it's kind of like, you know, Johnny ain't got the gun.
[01:01:35] Yeah, no, I mean, it's, uh, it's not a good thing.
[01:01:39] Yeah, people, you know, I've talked about that with a bunch of people, but the fact that nowadays,
[01:01:43] and there's positives and there's negatives to it.
[01:01:46] There's positives and there's negatives and there's negatives. Now it is with the internet, you can literally go face to face with your family, every night that you're not in the field.
[01:01:54] You can jump on there and you can talk to them and you can see them.
[01:01:57] And I don't know, I'm sure that's good for some people. For me, that's not a good thing.
[01:02:01] For me, you know, when I was overseas, I was overseas. And I would talk to my wife and kids, like once a week, I'd call them.
[01:02:10] We'd talk for five minutes. I'd ask them, how's, you know, the standard, whatever questions they are, how's school, how's everything going?
[01:02:17] Okay, you know, Daddy loves you. We'll, we'll, we'll talk to you. You know, next week.
[01:02:23] And I'll tell you, even I was very emotionally detached from my family when I was overseas.
[01:02:30] And it's hard to explain to people, you know, at that time I had three kids now. I have four kids, but, you know, I've told the story about the fact that my kids,
[01:02:39] my wife said, sent me an email, it said, oh, can you take a picture of where you sleep at night?
[01:02:44] Because the kids want to see where you sleep at. And we had an old Saddam Palace and I had one of the rooms there and I had a plywood, you know, bed with a crappy, you know, mattress on it.
[01:02:55] And the plywood bed, you know, had like a headboard on it, right? But it was just blank. It was just plywood.
[01:03:00] And I took a picture of it on a little digital camera and I was going to send it to my wife and I looked at it and I realized it was that it was just,
[01:03:08] it was just there was nothing there. So I opened up a folder that I had in a drawer and I took pictures of my wife and kids up and I, and I hung them up.
[01:03:16] And then I took a picture and then I took them back down and I put them back in the folder and put them back in the drawer because
[01:03:23] Man, I didn't want to see, and again, the sound's horrible to say, but it's directly related to what you're saying is I didn't want to see my wife and my kids every single day, every single morning when I woke up, every single night before I went, I didn't want to see them.
[01:03:37] So I was just saying about them because I got a job to do and the people that I really need to worry about this point were my guys.
[01:03:44] And so I totally agree with that, you know, you want to have some sort of emotional detachment from your family. Now can you go too far with this?
[01:03:54] Absolutely. You can go too far with this and now if it's on, you know, you, you get too detached from your family doesn't mean anything to you anymore.
[01:04:01] And that's going to be a problem as well. So you, but I think people got to pay attention to that and find that that medium, that happy medium where if they are still enough touch, but it's not it's not dragging them off because
[01:04:16] You don't want to let that happen. No.
[01:04:18] You don't be focused on those other things when you focus on.
[01:04:21] Yeah, you had your quiet time to stuff you could listen to the cassette, you know, at least here's a voice or you get a care pack as you're something, you know, it's got some good cookies in it from home or something like that.
[01:04:30] So yeah, you take time and you're bunker, whatever, you know, and you relax and you do that. But, you know, as far as running down to the Mars station, which I guess they had a Mars station somewhere and be a Tom, you know, you could make a phone call back to the States. I mean, I never did, but, you know, a few people did just just by telephone. But now today, yeah, like you said, I mean, it's like the other thing you see daddy on a big screen.
[01:04:56] Yeah. The other thing that I think it happens is is if you're worried about those things, you start to be less aggressive and in my opinion, when you're less aggressive on the battlefield, you'll end up in more trouble than if you're, if you're offensive.
[01:05:17] Yeah. That's the guys that I ran with, the pretty tight group. I don't think it's tight as you may be seals guys are, but, you know, all of us had a different story in life.
[01:05:34] And, but as far as getting the job done that we were out to do, we did a pretty good job, I think. I'll tell you, I worked with all kinds of guys in the Army and Marine Corps and the camaraderie in any military unit, especially once you're fighting hard, it's all, it's all awesome and it's all super tight.
[01:05:53] And I'm sure your guys going out on mission for six weeks, living in a track.
[01:06:06] There was just one time when we were traveling and we were having supplies, hard to keep up with this and stuff, you know, so it was, you know, you know, you know, water, you know, the fuel and you ended up, you know, bathing in bomb, bomb craters and things like that. So, and then you don't know where you're going. I was a lousy map reader over there, there's flat.
[01:06:32] No GPS. No GPS, but somebody anywhere there are going to follow it.
[01:06:37] I mean, it's really the technological advance. They are very, very high.
[01:06:41] I mean, we got the guys that we're looking at a map, a moving map, and it's shown exactly, not only where you are, but where all your other friendly guys are, it's pretty impressive.
[01:06:50] Yeah, so we had none of that.
[01:06:53] So, would you have to pay attention to guys to make sure that, I mean, you know, you're in that sustained combat, making sure that guys weren't getting to a point where, you know, they needed to break.
[01:07:14] My drivers and stuff were, I went through quite a few drivers. I mean, not the V, they just went on to do something else. I mean, that was kind of their starting point.
[01:07:25] And they drove from me, but you could tell, I mean, I had one driver. He just jumped out of the hatch where we were getting fired at and stuff. He jumped out of the hatch and I was like, you can take it back into it.
[01:07:35] I'm not driving it. I'm on my 50. And we're moving out of the area around because we're getting away from what was happening because we were regrouping back in.
[01:07:45] And he goes, oh, I can't do it. And he's thrown up and he's scared.
[01:07:49] Yeah. He's scared. And a lot of guys are scared, you know. And mostly the drivers, because they're kind of confined, you know, and we're kind of free wheeling with the 50s and the 60s off the sides and stuff.
[01:08:03] Yeah, you jumped out and said, you know, I'll get back into the track, I'll smack them inside the head and you get, you know, you get in and then you leave.
[01:08:11] But then maybe you go back to base camp and say, maybe that's not the guy for this mission or these missions.
[01:08:18] Yeah, so you go on and do something else.
[01:08:21] Well, it's an interesting dynamic because I mean, I guess maybe you're just a mellow guy because you're telling these stories about doing this and doing that.
[01:08:28] And you're making it sound like you're going out to in and out burger to grab a burger and in reality, you got just to just to put it in perspective, some of the guys that you're with are are scared and throwing up from fear and so that's horrible.
[01:08:45] You take care of those guys.
[01:08:47] You know, so you can get them back to base camp, whatever, you know, and then or they overcome, you know, but what's bothering them.
[01:08:57] Rose is a perfect example.
[01:08:59] It's just kicking them to mind.
[01:09:01] Good, nice young kid and stuff, you know, but you couldn't shoot somebody Monday and, and, you know, so I grabbed the gun right out of his hand and shot the guy.
[01:09:10] So, but that was just one incident.
[01:09:13] We read into some pretty heavy duty guys and they took out a track right in front of me and they were in a bunker and they were doing some damage.
[01:09:23] And Rose just got to be froze.
[01:09:27] I don't even know if Rose can't do that.
[01:09:29] So how'd you handle Rose after that?
[01:09:32] He mode out a little bit and he ended up being a pretty good driver.
[01:09:37] I don't know. So I mean, he got over that, I think.
[01:09:41] But again, that driver moved on.
[01:09:44] It's another kind of misconception in the military that if you're in a leadership position, you're just going to bark orders and you're going to yell on people going to listen to you because you.
[01:09:52] And you're just giving these beautiful examples of the fact that like, okay, you've got to have the understanding of the person you've got to, they're going to, people are going to make mistakes.
[01:10:02] People are going to get scared and doesn't matter how mad you yell at them.
[01:10:06] It doesn't matter.
[01:10:07] Yeah, it won't help.
[01:10:08] You need to develop a relationship with them.
[01:10:10] You need to get to know them.
[01:10:11] You need to understand them.
[01:10:13] And then just because they, you know, you learn something about them if they have a short fall like that.
[01:10:18] Like you said, maybe I'm not going to put him in that position again.
[01:10:21] Right.
[01:10:22] Where can I use this individual?
[01:10:23] Absolutely.
[01:10:24] And a lot of times people view the military, you know, especially, especially when they see full metal jacket where it's, you know, the general sergeant yelling for 45 minutes in the movie, or the general sergeant, the yelling for 45 minutes in the movie, they think that's what military leadership is.
[01:10:41] And the classic examples that you're talking about of what real military leadership is like, and it's really it's the same as all leadership.
[01:10:48] But getting to know your people building a team, figuring out what your mission is.
[01:10:52] And you're not better than they are.
[01:10:54] And you know, and, and that was pointed out to me once I, by a colonel.
[01:11:00] And you live with these guys.
[01:11:02] You live on the track with them, you know, you live in, in, in the groups, the sergeants, you know, we will get together and we'll have meetings and stuff, you know, and guys will be out on the tracks, clean, whatever they're doing.
[01:11:13] We happen to be filming sandbags one day, got my shirt off filming sandbags, you know, my guys actually use one of my drivers to hold the bag and film it.
[01:11:23] And this curl and he was in communications area.
[01:11:28] He said, sorry, not come here.
[01:11:30] Oh, shoot.
[01:11:32] Okay.
[01:11:33] And so I went in and said, hey, he goes, you see that shade over there?
[01:11:38] Oh, yeah, he'll go sit down in there and watch your guys film sandbags.
[01:11:43] I'm going to blow, bang on, I, you know, these guys are, you know, part of me.
[01:11:50] He goes, I doesn't matter.
[01:11:52] And he's sitting a shade, watching him do it.
[01:11:55] And he says, if you, if you want to film sandbags, you know, I can make it so you can do that.
[01:12:00] And he's going to take rank from me, you know, and I said, my mom will pay.
[01:12:04] And I, but I had to go and I explained to my guys, I said, look, I'm sitting in the shade over here.
[01:12:09] She's, she's filming sandbags.
[01:12:11] So, I, you know, little things like that.
[01:12:13] Well, it's a little, it's a point in, in saying point.
[01:12:15] Because I was a sergeant and they would private and they should be doing the work and you're not supposed to be.
[01:12:21] You're supposed to be watching them do the work.
[01:12:23] I'm going.
[01:12:24] That was hard for me.
[01:12:25] Yeah.
[01:12:26] But I'll tell you that you had better leadership instincts than your Colonel at that point.
[01:12:31] I guarantee it because that's, that's what, that's what makes your guys.
[01:12:35] If you, if your mentality is, hey, my guys will respect me if I sit over here in the shade when they're working.
[01:12:41] That's just a wrong mentality.
[01:12:43] They knew they knew.
[01:12:45] Yeah, go on.
[01:12:46] Yeah.
[01:12:46] That's, truly, that's again, that's just a classic example of good leadership.
[01:12:52] As opposed to what people think, like I said, all the sergeants going to be over here and watching you with his hands and his pockets.
[01:12:57] While you guys do the work, it's like, no, I'm actually going to be here with you guys.
[01:13:00] We're going to build it with it.
[01:13:02] I'm part of the team.
[01:13:03] And there are times, of course, there's times where you got to go to a meeting.
[01:13:06] You got to go.
[01:13:07] And your team now looks like, hey, you go do your job and where you do our job.
[01:13:11] And at some point, you're going to, when you have some spare time, you'll come help us with our job.
[01:13:16] And, and you know what, you're going to come back at some point and say, hey, I need help with this plan.
[01:13:20] I need help with getting these, getting these maps put together, getting these waypoints figured out or whatever.
[01:13:25] And they're going to help you and it's much more about building the team than it is to, that it is about, I'm going to tell you what to do.
[01:13:31] And I'm going to sit in the shade while your film, Santhek, it's a matter of fact, or a new book.
[01:13:34] We are new book. We talk about the fact that, you know,
[01:13:38] Lafes, Paltoon came back to a, to a combat outpost.
[01:13:42] And there was a bunch of army guys. They were film and sandbags up.
[01:13:45] Or that actually weren't film and sandbags. They were already filled, but they were moving the sandbags up to the rooftop of some of the buildings on the combat outpost.
[01:13:52] And Lafes like, hey, you know, my guy's going to help out. And, you know, it's like, this, it's a small little, it's a small little, you know, indication of, hey, like you said, we're not better than you.
[01:14:05] We're here. We're, we're, we're going to bleed the same blood. We're going to sweat the same sweat and we're going to fill in and move the same sandbags.
[01:14:13] Another topic that's come up, some of the guys talking about Vietnam.
[01:14:20] And believe it or not, I think it's, I think it's 60% roughly of the, of the service members that fought in World War II.
[01:14:30] It was higher, who's 60% were drafties in Vietnam. It was 25%. Now, there's a bunch of reasons why people focus more on Vietnam drafties, rather than World War II drafties.
[01:14:41] Because World War II, the whole country was that war, right? The whole country was at war.
[01:14:46] And it was everything from, hey, we're not going to eat meat tonight. We're not going to get new tires because we need that from the troops.
[01:14:53] So the whole country is a war. Vietnam was different than I mean, as you said earlier, you know, Vietnam War was happening.
[01:14:59] You were surfing. Yeah. And so when the draft started coming, it was like, okay, it's, it was a different reaction. So I think that's part of it.
[01:15:07] But I have, I talk with a lot of companies now and people will bring up the question of millennials and hey, you know, the millennials, they don't want to work. And it's really hard to work with them.
[01:15:18] And I've explained to a bunch of them now that, you know, in the Vietnam War, they had soldiers, Marines that had been drafted.
[01:15:27] And they wanted to go had their, had a normal job or had their life going on. But in many cases didn't believe in the war, didn't believe in what we were doing. And yet good leaders would take those drafties and David Hackworth, who's a guy that I read his books and talk about it a lot.
[01:15:44] He loved his drafties and he said, oh, yeah, those guys, they fought hard.
[01:15:47] If the, if I was doing something stupid, they would tell me I actually enjoyed having guys that would raise because they weren't a career guy that's trying to kiss my ass and say, hey, that sounds great.
[01:15:56] Boss, no, they say, hey, that's actually a dumb idea. And so this idea that these drafties were, if they, their drafties were under good leadership.
[01:16:07] The leaders that I've had on here, I've had quite a few guys from Vietnam that were, you know, ground ground commanders on in Vietnam and they said, oh, I couldn't tell the drafties from the, from the lifers because they all weren't hard. They all did their job.
[01:16:22] Whereas if you read people that maybe weren't good leaders, that would have an attitude, you know, that was, oh, the drafties didn't want to do it. They didn't, they didn't work hard.
[01:16:31] They didn't do their job. It's, to me, it's not about the drafties to me. It's about the leaders.
[01:16:36] You're a great example, you know, of a guy that not only said, okay, hey, did you want to go to Vietnam in 1968 getting pulled out of, you know, going to college and skiing and surfing?
[01:16:48] No, but guess what? Okay, you're going to go do your job. You not only did your job, did it well and also stepped up and led other people that were in the same situation you were.
[01:17:00] Yeah, I had great leaders too. You know, I mean, the people we can look up to and we had this one.
[01:17:07] Lieutenant who became the captain of our outfit and he was with another company and they were in a situation where almost all of them got sniped.
[01:17:18] We like the commanders and stuff. The captain of the tenets and the colonels, they'd all write on the side of the track and a little chair form there.
[01:17:28] They'd make sure something and rather, but they write on the side and they went into to maintain in a place called Newby Dan and I guess they sniped almost all of them.
[01:17:39] Anyways, we got this, this lieutenant from there. He was, I don't know if he's a last survivor, but I mean he was one of those that didn't get sniped.
[01:17:50] And he became the leader of our great guy, great guy. And, but there were other ones too. I mean, everybody got along pretty good.
[01:18:03] Yeah, I refused to go out one time on a mission. It was a SND at night.
[01:18:11] And literally I didn't want to much want to go because I knew it was going to be a real cluster.
[01:18:20] And anytime you do run rows at night, without knowing exactly what you're going or what you're doing.
[01:18:28] And they were just going to go out and search and just throw it and see what they could run into.
[01:18:34] And I've been there for a while, so I'm going. Problem with that was I did, I kind of overstepped the suitinist authority a little bit and I talked to my captain.
[01:18:45] I just like I'm going to look, you know, by the book, the Flamethrower Actual to stay inside the compound at night.
[01:18:54] That's just somewhere I read it, something like that. He wanted me to go with it.
[01:18:59] And I don't know, so I talked to my captain anyway, I didn't go. I didn't have to go. They went out and they came back and they bumped one guy off, you know, on a hill, some place, you know, he ended up walking back into the base camp and the guy broke his arm out of treason.
[01:19:15] And I was like, you know, you don't see it night too well. You can't go bustin through the jungle with big lights on and but he got back at me. He goes, okay, so you're going to be protected at night and gotten a certain protect but I mean you're inside the compound.
[01:19:33] I ended up, I had to take my 260s off. My two guys that were on those 60s left and I was left with was my 50 cow, the flame and my driver. So I'm going, whoa.
[01:19:48] I got one of the good idea, you know, but I could have been worse than we got out in the mission. I don't know, anyways.
[01:19:56] And later on, and my time there, I became resupply sergeant in the field. This is kind of after, you know, we've been through why do you fireflies and stuff and they said, okay, it's time to slow down a little bit.
[01:20:10] So I became resupply sergeant, but it was resupply in the field. So I was still running with the same guys on his with except I get to fly a shit hook back and forth to someplace else to pick up fuel and and food and stuff and deliver to my guys.
[01:20:28] Unfortunately, the lieutenant's got fuel last, they got food last, they got, you know, it's kind of chicken shit. I shouldn't really have done anything like that, but I was going to like took weapons away from you.
[01:20:44] I mean, that's my life, good out there.
[01:20:46] And this is one of those, is one of these things where again, from my perspective, I was trying to look at things from a leadership perspective.
[01:20:58] And that's telling me that something is wrong or telling me I should do something a different way, then I'm going to listen to them. That's what I'm going to do. And if you were telling me, hey, this doesn't make any sense to go out at night, this is not a good idea. I'm going to say, you know what?
[01:21:14] Let's reconsider why we're doing this mission and how we're going to execute this thing to me. That's that's part of leadership. And again, if I took care of you by saying, okay, tell me explain this to me and we had a real conversation about why it is you don't think we should go out because maybe there's some things that I could have done to mitigate that say, you know what?
[01:21:34] Since you are in the flame, we'll put you in the back, we'll do something different. And then at a minimum, you are happy that I listen to you. I didn't just bark in order to know this to what we're going to do.
[01:21:45] Because what does that end up turning into? What that ends up turning into is you got a negative attitude towards me.
[01:21:51] And as a leader, I don't want you to have a negative attitude towards me because guess what you end up doing? You end up in a position where you're not giving me my reason why wouldn't you?
[01:21:58] I wouldn't know when I want it, which is, which is again, these things just boil down to having respect up and down the chain of command.
[01:22:06] And if you listen to the people below you in the chain of command, let's ask this question. If I was in that guy's shoes, I'd say, okay, I got sergeant Hall. He's telling me he doesn't want to go out. Why is he saying that?
[01:22:16] Let me listen to him. He's saying it's going to be hard to maneuver at night. He's got more experience than me. Maybe I should listen to him. And on top of that, what am I going to accomplish tonight?
[01:22:25] It might ego that wants to go out. Because sometimes just, no, we're going to go out. No, no, you're going to listen to me. We're going to go out.
[01:22:32] And that just becomes my ego versus ego. And of course, can I win that contest? Yes, because I outrank you.
[01:22:38] So we're going to do what I said. But what is that? What, how does that really help? It doesn't, doesn't help bring our team together.
[01:22:45] So that's another thing to think about when it comes to just this stuff from a leadership perspective is, if you listen to the people below you in the chain of command, and you hear them out.
[01:22:56] And you take to into consideration what they're telling you, it is going to number one. It's going to improve the way you do your job.
[01:23:04] Because if a who smarter me who just got here or you who've been here for eight months, you're going to have more information.
[01:23:11] You're going to know more than I do. It's going to make me better if I listen. And we're going to accomplish our mission better if I listen.
[01:23:18] And on top of that, it's going to strengthen the bonds that we have because we're reciprocating fought between our brains and we're listening to each other.
[01:23:26] And that brings us tighter together. So these little leadership lessons are important.
[01:23:31] There was no RSD in it night after that mission though. Well, there you go. So, and what did you prove by that?
[01:23:37] You know, I bet your captain went to and said, hey, listen, you know, hey, listen, lieutenant. If you got all telling you we shouldn't be doing this, I'll let you do it tonight.
[01:23:44] Do you want to prove your little point? But that's it.
[01:23:48] It basically is. Yeah. So there you go. So he he cost himself some leadership capital that actually ended up hurting him later on in the resupply.
[01:23:56] I like to carry his guy.
[01:23:58] I mean, it made it look like he was going to get the last stuff.
[01:24:02] I never knew that to anybody. Yeah, no, you took care of him, but you you made him wait for it.
[01:24:07] Made a little point.
[01:24:09] Mr. River Plantation was exciting. So we're cruising one day. We're coming back to base camp.
[01:24:17] And we're all in a column. We're just cruising along normal like. And the lead track takes a couple sniper rounds.
[01:24:24] And we're going, well, and coming from the hillside up here. So we put little half shoe, you know, and just let go with 1850 calibers or 17 whatever it is.
[01:24:37] Definitely the hillside. It's all Michelin rubber plantation. It's definitely there.
[01:24:42] And then it clotted down. You know, nothing's coming back. We're going, okay. No, things are loaded.
[01:24:47] I've got to go to my eye and down the road. I can see dust coming down there. And here's a red white and blue.
[01:24:55] For Bronco fairly new one. I'm pretty sure it was blue. I know I know it was white and red and it had some blue on it.
[01:25:04] And he comes in and brody's right into our little horses.
[01:25:08] And he gets off. He goes over to the kernel. He's Colonel McKinsey here. And Colonel jumps off the track and stuff. And this guy is sitting there and he's doing like this.
[01:25:22] I don't know what to hell. Jump back in. He's got his little plantation worker with him too. He jumps back in. He's is Bronco and he takes off and I walk over to the kernel.
[01:25:32] Why would that guy come in the middle of this little fire fight? It was well, we pay $1,500 a piece.
[01:25:40] That guy for those trees and a 50 caliber hit that tree. It blew the tree out and bleeds a rubber out.
[01:25:46] So I'm on. Oh, I said you're a gig.
[01:25:49] Send his plantation worker over to her up there. A couple pot shots. No hit anybody.
[01:25:55] That's one way to make money off the estimate.
[01:26:00] The mission the mission plantation was pretty good. They had this thing because there was a lot of movement down through the plantation.
[01:26:09] You know, of troops and stuff. So they came out with this idea about, okay, we'll have red zones and green zones.
[01:26:16] Red zone, anybody inside the red zone and one clicks square, right?
[01:26:21] And anybody in red zone, you know, that that's free fire and green zone. No, because you have the plantation worker.
[01:26:28] And you know, I'll stir in a pot and stuff. Well, they used to melt right into the, and we get workers that we'd seen before better end red zones.
[01:26:36] I'm going to work out good.
[01:26:38] So anyways, they, they stopped doing that.
[01:26:41] That's, that's my story. I'm sticking to it.
[01:26:44] Yeah.
[01:26:45] Like I said, that's one way to make money off the estimate for sure.
[01:26:48] Wow.
[01:26:49] So you ended up doing how long, how long would it be?
[01:26:53] 10 months, 22 days.
[01:26:55] And then was that, that was shorter than a normal.
[01:26:58] I get early out to go back to school.
[01:27:00] Company clear one day came out in the field.
[01:27:03] He's delivering checks and or money and whatever.
[01:27:06] He says, you know, sorry, no, you can get early out.
[01:27:09] They just approved something or rather, I don't know.
[01:27:11] How do I do that?
[01:27:12] I know I'm up.
[01:27:14] He says, wow, I just need to let her from school.
[01:27:18] You know, I broke my mom by mail.
[01:27:23] And sure not, she, she registered me at the college at Grossman College.
[01:27:29] And so I got a little bit earlier.
[01:27:31] And that was because Nixon was at this point.
[01:27:34] I think trying to think things are slowing down.
[01:27:37] Yeah, things are slowing down.
[01:27:38] Yeah, a little bit.
[01:27:39] So they want to get guys out.
[01:27:41] Hey, well, before we, before we kind of wrap on Vietnam,
[01:27:45] but one more, one more note that you made was about your,
[01:27:48] your medic.
[01:27:49] Oh, yeah.
[01:27:50] Yeah.
[01:27:50] I just wanted to touch on that one before we come back.
[01:27:52] We shot new his name.
[01:27:53] I wish I knew his name.
[01:27:55] We were, we got in the shed a little bit.
[01:27:58] And he was a seal, a conscious ejector.
[01:28:02] And hell of a medic, Rayleigh Sky Avenue.
[01:28:05] And one day we got in the shed and he was right on my track.
[01:28:09] And he picked up a weapon from Star Fire and to save his ass.
[01:28:15] They don't end ours, you know.
[01:28:17] And, but you never did it again.
[01:28:19] Never do it again.
[01:28:20] But the rest of the time you're saying he would.
[01:28:23] No, he'd brave.
[01:28:24] Yeah.
[01:28:25] He was insane.
[01:28:27] Good guy.
[01:28:29] Really good guy.
[01:28:30] Yeah.
[01:28:31] And there's just, I mean, what kind of, that's an incredible.
[01:28:37] Again, just talking about from a leadership perspective,
[01:28:40] you got a guy in your unit.
[01:28:42] That's a conscientious subjector that doesn't want to be at war
[01:28:46] and yet you got him out there and he's risking his life.
[01:28:50] And even in the moment of truth, he actually steps up and.
[01:28:54] Now he can see what was happening.
[01:28:56] Yeah.
[01:28:57] What was going on that he needed to step up?
[01:28:59] That's going to be a guy or situation.
[01:29:00] Yeah, they were puffing up out of the bush pretty good.
[01:29:03] And, you know, I didn't have any control where they were or anything.
[01:29:08] And all you see guys over here, okay, you can tie her over there.
[01:29:11] And they were starting to hit us from the, from the rear.
[01:29:14] And he happened to be there.
[01:29:16] And so he picked up the 60 and started having at it.
[01:29:20] Yeah.
[01:29:21] What's the, like, what's the whole situation with a conscientious objector?
[01:29:27] Like, what? He does this one that serves.
[01:29:29] And, but he doesn't want to, he wants to kill anybody.
[01:29:33] And I mean, he doesn't want to shoot.
[01:29:34] He doesn't want to, you know, carry weapons or anything.
[01:29:36] I mean, he wouldn't even carry a 45.
[01:29:37] He'd carry a medic bag.
[01:29:39] And that's just cool with everybody.
[01:29:41] And that's, so it's like an understood thing.
[01:29:43] Yeah, I dig it.
[01:29:44] Your views on this whole thing come do your job.
[01:29:47] We don't expect you to write it or whatever.
[01:29:50] Right.
[01:29:51] Huh.
[01:29:52] Yeah, there's, there's a small,
[01:29:53] But small, my bleeding.
[01:29:55] Oh, yeah, of course.
[01:29:56] Yes, yes.
[01:29:57] Yeah.
[01:29:58] And he was good at that.
[01:29:59] Yeah.
[01:30:00] How common is that?
[01:30:01] It's not very common.
[01:30:02] I'm very, I don't think.
[01:30:03] It's not very common.
[01:30:04] I'd say you might have been more common in World War Two.
[01:30:08] But it's only because I, and this is like complete speculation on my part in Vietnam.
[01:30:13] Someone that didn't want to fight was more apt to just run away to Canada or something or get a deferment for whatever, you know, medical or, but it seems like a World War Two again, because the whole country was at war.
[01:30:25] Right.
[01:30:26] That they would be like, well, you know, I'm just going to be a conscient.
[01:30:29] And there's a, there's the movie about the guy that won the, wasn't awarded the Medal of Honor.
[01:30:34] Yeah.
[01:30:35] Yeah.
[01:30:36] Yeah.
[01:30:37] Yeah.
[01:30:38] Yeah.
[01:30:39] Yeah.
[01:30:39] Yeah.
[01:30:40] Great.
[01:30:41] You know.
[01:30:42] And to massive risks to, to make it happen.
[01:30:44] Does that go down going now?
[01:30:46] No, these.
[01:30:47] Can I wrap her anything?
[01:30:49] I, I have never met a conscientious objecter, myself, no, so I don't know.
[01:30:55] I haven't heard of it lately.
[01:30:57] I was just something that was, you know, he's a great guy.
[01:31:01] Maybe I only just didn't know that's okay.
[01:31:06] He's a medic.
[01:31:07] Yeah.
[01:31:08] I guess it wouldn't go on now because there's no draft.
[01:31:09] So if there's no draft, you don't need to go.
[01:31:11] So if you don't need to go, so if you don't need to go, you're just, you're just not going.
[01:31:15] Yeah.
[01:31:16] Whereas if you had an arm, they had the draft.
[01:31:18] Yeah.
[01:31:19] Unless, yeah.
[01:31:20] Let's say, you know, people, they have their principles where they're like, hey, I want to go
[01:31:23] Make a difference.
[01:31:24] Yeah.
[01:31:25] But, you know, they're kind of detailed in there.
[01:31:27] Maybe that person would go in the Peace Corps instead of the Marine Corps.
[01:31:30] Yeah.
[01:31:31] Maybe they're being resupply.
[01:31:32] Do you go in there?
[01:31:33] Yeah.
[01:31:34] They have options now.
[01:31:35] Yeah.
[01:31:36] Yeah.
[01:31:37] Makes sense.
[01:31:38] Yeah.
[01:31:38] I captured two guys over there one time.
[01:31:39] I know the medic got a little upset.
[01:31:41] And I was on the mission.
[01:31:43] We were tailing some guys that were surveyors or something like that.
[01:31:49] Pulling security forms.
[01:31:50] I figured coming back.
[01:31:51] And I was on Patalion radio.
[01:31:53] And this is after we got, we got all around on the, at Thunder 3.
[01:31:59] And a few days later.
[01:32:02] And so cruising down the road.
[01:32:05] And I see this guy.
[01:32:06] And we had what they called true Hawaii back then.
[01:32:08] We meant they gave them up.
[01:32:10] Open arms.
[01:32:11] Yeah.
[01:32:12] And so he's true Hawaiian.
[01:32:13] He's got, you know, man, old ears across this chest and stuff.
[01:32:16] You know, he's a lion cloth.
[01:32:17] And he was part of the 30 that hit our base camp to three, two nights before that.
[01:32:22] And so I was last in the column as on Patalion radio.
[01:32:26] And I was trying to get a whole of my guys on company.
[01:32:29] And I'm on Patalion.
[01:32:30] But hey, guys, I'm open.
[01:32:32] But I'm on a line.
[01:32:33] He helped out here.
[01:32:34] And so anyway, we pull over in the mud off side of the road.
[01:32:38] And he's sitting in this little saddle on this hill.
[01:32:41] And so I got down and went up to the panel near off and stuff.
[01:32:44] And he said something.
[01:32:45] He was talking.
[01:32:46] He's yelling in the back.
[01:32:47] And I was going to shoot.
[01:32:48] It's going to be somebody else back there.
[01:32:50] And so I had, I think it was tugling.
[01:32:53] And I said, keep an eye on this guy here.
[01:32:56] You know, they had him.
[01:32:59] And so I'm looking at what I go up over the hill.
[01:33:02] And here's this guy laying on the ground.
[01:33:03] He got AK47 beside him like this.
[01:33:06] And he's laying on the ground.
[01:33:08] I'm going, you know, you're up.
[01:33:10] You're up.
[01:33:11] And he's going.
[01:33:12] He's going.
[01:33:13] Whatever the guy said was good.
[01:33:15] Because I didn't shoot that guy.
[01:33:17] You know, and throw the other guy.
[01:33:18] He goes, okay, well, you know, I put guy.
[01:33:21] He stood up.
[01:33:23] I made him stand up.
[01:33:24] And his calf was blown off from his knee to his ankle.
[01:33:28] It was only his bone.
[01:33:30] You know, and I was going, oh, no.
[01:33:33] So he left his AK on the ground.
[01:33:35] And stuff.
[01:33:36] I went over to him.
[01:33:37] And I put him on my back.
[01:33:40] I didn't carry him out to the road on on 13.
[01:33:43] By that time the medics had come out and stuff.
[01:33:46] And when I got cut on my guys on tracks and stuff,
[01:33:49] we were out to.
[01:33:51] And so I put him on my back and I carried him out and threw him
[01:33:54] in the back of the Jeep.
[01:33:56] And this other medic grabbed by the hair.
[01:34:00] He stuck a 45 on the side of his head.
[01:34:02] I don't, whoa, whoa, what are you doing, man?
[01:34:04] I just carried him 50 yards across the street.
[01:34:07] You know, across the mud.
[01:34:09] He's not going to do anything.
[01:34:11] Well, you never know.
[01:34:12] I'm going to, and there's a leg all blown off of this stuff.
[01:34:16] That AK though was on full automatic.
[01:34:18] And he was going to go for it.
[01:34:20] And interpreter talked to him.
[01:34:22] And he says, yeah, he's pointing to the sky.
[01:34:26] The night that the attack happened, puff came by.
[01:34:31] And he peppered the whole area and stuff.
[01:34:35] He was beautiful sight.
[01:34:36] You know, a big ribbon on red and boom, boom, boom,
[01:34:39] while around the compound.
[01:34:40] And he must have got hit by it or something.
[01:34:42] Or he was at one of the cold-bris and something like that.
[01:34:45] But yeah, they did damage.
[01:34:46] And it was funny that the interpreter came back and told me,
[01:34:49] he says, you know, he says, I think she heard doctor.
[01:34:52] I don't really mean.
[01:34:53] He says, yeah, because he would help to him.
[01:34:55] He just goes, okay, whatever the mentality is.
[01:34:58] That guy was a sergeant.
[01:34:59] I mean, it was a staff sergeant.
[01:35:03] I think, and then NBA, we're talking about that.
[01:35:07] You know, he was up there.
[01:35:09] And the guy was like a captain or something like that.
[01:35:12] So there's a weird guy.
[01:35:17] And then would you say that those guys would then turn to be that,
[01:35:21] for like help out or they were a lot of times where they're reintegrated
[01:35:28] and depending on what area they had come from.
[01:35:32] And they'd find that out and then they'd,
[01:35:34] you know, blend them back into the, this society there.
[01:35:39] I don't know, I never saw him again.
[01:35:42] So yeah.
[01:35:44] That's another thing.
[01:35:46] There's a lot of similarities.
[01:35:48] Not a lot.
[01:35:49] There are definite similarities between, you know,
[01:35:51] what it was like for us over in Iraq.
[01:35:53] And I didn't fight in Afghanistan, but the guys that fight over there,
[01:35:56] you know, just the end then in Vietnam,
[01:35:58] just trying to tell who's a good guy, who's a bad guy.
[01:36:01] Yeah, that's one of those things.
[01:36:03] There's no easy way to do it.
[01:36:05] No, there isn't.
[01:36:06] And a lot of the village and stuff were provisive.
[01:36:08] And the village isn't stuff.
[01:36:09] And we knew that in the daytime was fine at nighttime.
[01:36:12] Yeah, no, I want to go through there.
[01:36:14] You know, we had some, some girl,
[01:36:17] get into our compound and once the gates were closed and stuff,
[01:36:23] they found her inside.
[01:36:25] And she was one of the village, which was a provisive village.
[01:36:28] And I don't know, they got some intel on the stuff from her and all that.
[01:36:32] And then actually, you know, re-conc mount nut.
[01:36:34] And they're going to take her back to the village.
[01:36:36] And I go, hey, I'll go, you know, I'll write shotgun on 150 off of one of the re-contracts.
[01:36:42] And so we pulled in this village, wish-boned it, you know,
[01:36:46] make sure and they kicked her out of the back of this track
[01:36:49] throughout the fight and she's yelling all the time.
[01:36:51] Just know how they're killing me, they're killing me.
[01:36:53] I'm a little bit too much.
[01:36:54] But the interp goes now, it should be all right, you know,
[01:36:57] that was a little, okay, whatever.
[01:36:59] At that moment though, when we did, we pulled in this village and stuff.
[01:37:03] I saw this, what I thought was a head coming up over the little hooches and stuff
[01:37:09] that they had almost fired, but didn't.
[01:37:13] And ended up being like a palm for honor or something.
[01:37:17] You know, just popping up over the ridge of this hooch.
[01:37:20] So it was kind of scary.
[01:37:22] No.
[01:37:23] Yeah, I would think.
[01:37:24] The fun button, though.
[01:37:25] The, the insurgents definitely, in Iraq, if they found out in Ramadi,
[01:37:29] if they found out that somebody was working with the coalition, they did kill him.
[01:37:32] They, they'd skin them alive.
[01:37:34] They did that.
[01:37:35] They'd be at them.
[01:37:36] It was pretty awful.
[01:37:37] We, the US coalition forces were very careful not to ever indicate that any of the people that
[01:37:44] were working with the coalition.
[01:37:46] Especially when I first got, as, as the transition happened and the insurgents got,
[01:37:51] were on the defensive more and the local populace realized that we were going to stay in
[01:37:55] protect them.
[01:37:56] They got more, we, they got more verbal about like, hey, no, there's a bad guy down there
[01:37:59] and, and, and the, the momentum shifted towards the local populace just being like, hey, we're good.
[01:38:07] You're good.
[01:38:08] Those guys are bad.
[01:38:09] Yeah.
[01:38:10] And there was less fear.
[01:38:11] And that was really one of the tipping points.
[01:38:13] Uh, so you get this early release program.
[01:38:19] And how's that?
[01:38:21] You just boom, they pluck you out of Vietnam.
[01:38:23] You get a letter.
[01:38:24] Well, how'd that go down?
[01:38:25] Um, come, no, actually, the kernel flew into where I, I was,
[01:38:28] uh, where I was on, uh, the side of their track of this one of those command tracks
[01:38:33] and it had a little bubble on top of the five, I think he's called a five seven seven.
[01:38:38] Whatever.
[01:38:39] Yeah.
[01:38:40] I don't remember one one four or something.
[01:38:42] Okay.
[01:38:43] I think it was what it was.
[01:38:44] And, uh, kernels kernel came flying out there and his helicopter and stuff and, uh,
[01:38:49] came into where we were staged and he said, sorry, no, all there's you right out
[01:38:53] in here.
[01:38:58] I will eat all of that.
[01:39:00] He goes, no, he doesn't like sticking on the ground.
[01:39:03] There's a little load, man.
[01:39:04] It was a great, great helicopter ride.
[01:39:06] And, uh, he goes, go.
[01:39:09] And I mean, I, I got a duffel bag and I started getting stuff away.
[01:39:13] My camera, my cave recorder and nothing, you know, and just grab what I could.
[01:39:18] And jump on this helicopter and boom, we were up in the air.
[01:39:21] It's flowing, it was a little one's before, you know, trying to put the buckle on and stuff.
[01:39:25] He just reshubbing, like that and was done.
[01:39:28] And they were up in the air, treetop, heading to Dao Chiang.
[01:39:33] And, uh, that was it.
[01:39:35] And then went back to Base Camp, got my stuff out of locker.
[01:39:40] Got a ride on, uh, I don't know, was it carabou?
[01:39:46] I don't remember.
[01:39:47] Anyway, anyway, got down to, down to Thompson, down Saigon and stuff.
[01:39:52] And, uh, it was quick, it was quick, like, I missed the first flight, you know.
[01:39:57] And, uh, I was down in Sha'er and Sha'er and Sha'er and, and,
[01:40:00] and Sergeant came up and says, hey, you just missed the champagne flight.
[01:40:04] And it was a nice one too.
[01:40:05] And, uh, the United Airlines I think it was.
[01:40:08] And they, so I said, well, so I had a way around another day.
[01:40:13] And, uh, then finally we left and got on this, this world Airlines.
[01:40:19] I don't know, it was either Korean or Japanese or something like that.
[01:40:23] But, uh, yeah, they flew this home.
[01:40:25] Yeah, it was quick.
[01:40:26] Now, you, you find right back into San Diego?
[01:40:29] No, we went to San Francisco.
[01:40:31] You said, yeah, I went to Frisco, but we got D-Roston in Oakland or something.
[01:40:38] I think it was or whatever it was down there.
[01:40:41] And so they give you all your stuff and you give them all your stuff that you have.
[01:40:48] And it's military wise and they go, yeah, you can catch a cab out there and the airport.
[01:40:53] I said, okay. All right.
[01:40:55] Went out there to PSA flight back.
[01:40:57] So now we're talking, nineteen, seventy.
[01:41:00] Yeah, seventy.
[01:41:02] Yeah, February.
[01:41:03] So, and this is the height of the height of the anti-war movement.
[01:41:08] Oh, yeah, yeah. Yeah.
[01:41:11] What was that like?
[01:41:13] Not too bad up there.
[01:41:15] San Diego and stuff.
[01:41:16] He had some hippie guys out front when I came out.
[01:41:19] And I wasn't really too worried.
[01:41:21] Glad to be home and stuff.
[01:41:23] Saw my brothers and stuff.
[01:41:24] Had spad on, you know, not spit on, but at my feet.
[01:41:28] You know, the wasn't the baby killer stuff.
[01:41:31] And even then, I didn't, I forgot what he said.
[01:41:34] You know, but it was like, you even didn't ask.
[01:41:37] And this saw my brothers and stuff and took off.
[01:41:40] And that was really the extent of the of the of the war protesters that you saw some
[01:41:47] Jackass and yeah, everyone.
[01:41:49] That was shit.
[01:41:50] Was that where you did you just look at it like you just did just now,
[01:41:54] which is like yeah, whatever the sky is.
[01:41:56] Yeah, yeah.
[01:41:57] I mean, what are I going to do?
[01:41:58] Poncho.
[01:41:59] Yeah.
[01:41:59] At that point, I wanted to kill him.
[01:42:01] No, no.
[01:42:03] I just, you know, it's like irritating me a little bit, but then I get in fear
[01:42:08] because my brother saw me and stuff.
[01:42:10] So, whether John and Doug came pick, you know, and then, um,
[01:42:14] so now you're, you're done.
[01:42:16] So this is like, this is a period of what, like, three days, four days, five days or something like that.
[01:42:21] Less than five days.
[01:42:22] Less than five days, you go from the jungles of Vietnam.
[01:42:25] Drop you off and you're back in the world.
[01:42:27] And then you're back in the world.
[01:42:29] Yeah.
[01:42:30] Did they give you any kind of, no.
[01:42:33] Yeah.
[01:42:34] There's a door right there.
[01:42:35] Get a cab.
[01:42:36] Oh, that's a funny thing too, because, because I went through NCO school, right?
[01:42:41] So they had track of all the sergeants and stuff that were in Vietnam.
[01:42:45] And so, when we back to Zion and Zion, I think, they had,
[01:42:53] you had to go through certain bungalows or buildings and stuff.
[01:42:58] And I went through one and he goes, he gave me a name and he marked it off.
[01:43:02] Oh, you're one of them that made it.
[01:43:04] And I go, what do you mean?
[01:43:06] Just yeah, you're on the list here.
[01:43:08] You made it.
[01:43:08] Okay, fine.
[01:43:09] I didn't understand what it was, but they were counting how many NCOs from that period made it through.
[01:43:17] Yeah.
[01:43:18] But no, there wasn't, there was no debriefing or, you know,
[01:43:22] have a good time or, you know, what you should do or,
[01:43:26] and, uh, good job America.
[01:43:30] Oh, no, they didn't know.
[01:43:34] Yeah, they didn't know.
[01:43:35] Yeah, I don't tell later.
[01:43:36] Well, one of the big things that's been pointed out a lot is in World War Two
[01:43:39] when you finish World War Two at a minimum, you got on a ship with,
[01:43:43] and you got on a ship with 500 other guys, 1000 other guys,
[01:43:47] and you rode with them for six weeks until you got back to American.
[01:43:51] During that time, you talked about everything and you kind of got it off your chest,
[01:43:54] and now to your system, and then you got back, and it was, you got that decompression time.
[01:43:58] We didn't even know what it was called, but put new, you know, from the jungles of Vietnam to Main Street, San Diego.
[01:44:04] Yeah.
[01:44:05] And then what do you think about it though?
[01:44:07] Um, did not any different.
[01:44:09] You know, how was it supposed to feel?
[01:44:11] I don't know. I figured that happened to everybody.
[01:44:13] I don't know.
[01:44:14] The only thing is that I had a family to go to.
[01:44:17] A lot of guys did.
[01:44:18] Mm-hmm.
[01:44:19] Yeah.
[01:44:21] So I, uh,
[01:44:25] It's all good.
[01:44:27] Well, we're glad that you had a family and glad you came on home when you did.
[01:44:33] Did you, um,
[01:44:37] did you jump right back into college?
[01:44:41] Well, that was, yeah, I kind of blew that away.
[01:44:45] You know, take a astrology geometry,
[01:44:47] and whatever, and you get a classes on the next stuff, and then it just went in for me.
[01:44:52] But I did get out.
[01:44:54] And I'm whether you're going to do something back.
[01:44:56] Mm-hmm.
[01:44:57] Yeah.
[01:44:58] So, oh, so, so you were still in the army?
[01:45:01] They are all so sure. Yeah, okay.
[01:45:03] They outpricced.
[01:45:04] Yeah, but you're, you're good to, you know, you're still in reserve or whatever it is for a couple of years.
[01:45:10] Yeah.
[01:45:11] So what did you do? What did you do when you got back?
[01:45:13] Um,
[01:45:14] kind of chilled for a while.
[01:45:18] You know, and then I went to work with my dad at the unemployment.
[01:45:22] I did get unemployment for a year or I think it was six months or something like that.
[01:45:28] That's another funny story.
[01:45:30] You know, the people at the unemployment, you know, ask people, what did you do in the military?
[01:45:34] Or, no, what you want to do?
[01:45:36] And I go, I want to build wooden boats.
[01:45:40] Well, we don't have any, you know, wooden boat builders, but they didn't say any.
[01:45:45] But, and what did you do in the military?
[01:45:48] And, you know, sarcastic little ass. I was like, well, I killed people.
[01:45:52] I mean, got a huge job for that.
[01:45:54] Mm-hmm.
[01:45:55] And I was just being sarcastic.
[01:45:56] I, I don't know what to say.
[01:45:58] Mm-hmm.
[01:45:59] Yeah.
[01:45:59] But anyway, say, I went to work for my dad and, uh, at the, uh,
[01:46:05] employment agency for a while, then through that employment agency,
[01:46:10] I got a job at a building material warehouse in Dallas,
[01:46:14] and a case products.
[01:46:16] And I worked there for quite a while, a little while.
[01:46:20] But I used to meet contractors and stuff.
[01:46:23] You know, the came in there and they said, hey, you want to work on a week?
[01:46:25] And I said, yeah, you know, before you know, you know, I was working to
[01:46:28] cabinet shop and then after that, I was building houses and, and then, uh,
[01:46:35] I worked for the gas company, uh, in the 80s.
[01:46:39] Uh, I stayed uni for about eight years and stuff.
[01:46:42] And I never saw this little guy grow up or anything, you know,
[01:46:44] it was kind of like I worked at nights and days and, and afternoons.
[01:46:48] And then I got the job at the, I quit that.
[01:46:51] I quit a lot of things during that period.
[01:46:54] Um, then I got the job at the hotel down.
[01:46:58] Yeah.
[01:46:59] Nice.
[01:47:00] What, what, what, what point, how old were you when you had Josh?
[01:47:04] Uh, I was 32, 33, 32.
[01:47:08] I got married about 32, so it was like 30, I was 33 years.
[01:47:11] I'm going to like, yeah.
[01:47:13] Yeah.
[01:47:14] And then I get divorced at when I was 42.
[01:47:16] Do you think you bounced around from a lot of jobs because you were looking for something
[01:47:19] like, you did, you want to quite sure what you wanted to do?
[01:47:23] Um, they asked you, do you need, but it was a good job.
[01:47:27] I mean, I mean, I, that was an excellent job.
[01:47:29] There's just about a friend in the job.
[01:47:31] Yeah, you know, and people helping you in stuff, you know, and they go,
[01:47:34] because I didn't, I was lost.
[01:47:36] I didn't, you know, after, you know, the divorce and stuff, you know,
[01:47:39] I was just wandering.
[01:47:40] And I only my mind and literally wandering.
[01:47:44] And then, I worked the, thunderbolt races for a long time during the 80s.
[01:47:52] And a couple of those guys said, hey, you know, I, you know,
[01:47:55] try to go to the, the, the Dell, you know,
[01:48:00] so I went down there and they go, what do you do?
[01:48:02] That's as well, I'm a carpenter.
[01:48:04] You know, I had been in the past.
[01:48:06] And, oh, okay.
[01:48:08] So he hired me for 10 bucks a hour.
[01:48:10] I said, well, that's better than nothing.
[01:48:13] And it was a good job.
[01:48:15] It was a good career, man.
[01:48:16] So, good family down there and hotel.
[01:48:19] Yeah.
[01:48:20] And you got to be in Coronado.
[01:48:22] Yeah.
[01:48:23] Yeah.
[01:48:24] Which was like a little, you know, go over the bridge,
[01:48:26] but on your, your day is done, I know.
[01:48:28] Yeah.
[01:48:29] And it was like a little Disney land.
[01:48:31] And then this kid used to be came along and,
[01:48:33] and was over there too.
[01:48:35] Gilles did not really do in his homework at 330, and after doing it.
[01:48:39] And the shop.
[01:48:40] Yeah.
[01:48:41] All right.
[01:48:42] So that brings us to Josh.
[01:48:43] Josh Hall.
[01:48:45] And so did you,
[01:48:47] Well, what did you guys actually live?
[01:48:50] Did you live in Coronado?
[01:48:51] Okay.
[01:48:52] So you lived in Spring Valley, but you worked in Coronado.
[01:48:55] And that meant you spent a bunch of time in Coronado.
[01:48:57] Yeah.
[01:48:57] Yeah.
[01:48:57] Basically, what had happened, I think I was nine when you guys got divorced.
[01:49:02] 10.
[01:49:03] So I stayed in my mom's place in Claremont for two more years.
[01:49:06] And then the middle late grade.
[01:49:07] I'm like, this isn't a good scene.
[01:49:09] So, called him up and he came and got me.
[01:49:13] And that was it.
[01:49:14] I lived in the rest of, we finished out eighth grade in Claremont.
[01:49:16] And then lived in the Lamea, well, Spring Valley.
[01:49:18] Yeah.
[01:49:19] And would go over the bridge together every day.
[01:49:21] And it worked out.
[01:49:22] I played three seasons of sports.
[01:49:24] I played two.
[01:49:25] I played soccer for four years, baseball for two, and then golf for two.
[01:49:29] So by the time practice was over, he was off work.
[01:49:32] We'd go home.
[01:49:33] Yeah.
[01:49:34] So it was cool.
[01:49:35] It was tough breaking in.
[01:49:36] You know, that I think out of my graduating class.
[01:49:40] Maybe I want to say up to 30 kids have been in school together since kindergarten.
[01:49:45] And so when you're trying the new kid on the block.
[01:49:48] And, you know, of course, had long blonde hair and was a surfer.
[01:49:51] And we're Hawaiian shirts all the time.
[01:49:53] You know, took about six months to kind of break in and make, make friends.
[01:49:56] But it was great.
[01:49:58] I wouldn't trade anything for going there.
[01:50:00] It was a great school to go to for four years.
[01:50:02] And a couple through or four families, like, really brought me in.
[01:50:05] And maybe feel welcome.
[01:50:07] It was a good move.
[01:50:08] So what year did you start surfing?
[01:50:10] How old were you started surfing?
[01:50:11] Well, really started surfing.
[01:50:13] I mean, we've got, I'd gone to the beach my whole life.
[01:50:16] We can camp to South Carl's bedstate Beach every summer.
[01:50:19] I mean, my grandpa boogieed into his 80s.
[01:50:21] Literally like walk a boogie board down the stairs and get in the water.
[01:50:24] So I always grew up with it.
[01:50:25] I have an older half brother that was a big time surfer.
[01:50:28] But at that time, he wasn't the nurturing supportive type.
[01:50:31] He was the more I'm going to take you out drown you type.
[01:50:34] So unfortunately, I kind of missed an early window to get started.
[01:50:37] But I'd say I really got into it around 14.
[01:50:40] And to V8's grade, you know, we're like all boogie board and whatever.
[01:50:44] And then by ninth grade, we got, you know, got into surfing with my friends from the great thing was
[01:50:49] is even living in Spring Valley every weekend.
[01:50:51] My dad would drive us because my friends, we all grew up in Claremont, but before high school,
[01:50:57] one of my best friends moved down to PB.
[01:50:59] And so basically all summer long, that's where we lived, all weekend long.
[01:51:03] That's where we live.
[01:51:04] And so, thank, to this guy he would drive me from Spring Valley on a Friday afternoon.
[01:51:09] Well, we go home and then drive out and then he would come Sunday night pick me up.
[01:51:13] And it's just surf the entire weekend.
[01:51:15] Yeah, just hanging with friends.
[01:51:18] So yeah, I was like 14, or freshman year high school pretty much, which is late now.
[01:51:23] I mean, those kids are surfing when they're like three now.
[01:51:26] Well, now their kids are now the parents.
[01:51:27] They're all by the time.
[01:51:28] Yeah, 10 parents are pulling out of school in the home, school in the middle of six years old.
[01:51:31] Yeah.
[01:51:32] So, and let's hear about, I mean, how did you start?
[01:51:36] How did you say to yourself, you know what?
[01:51:39] I like riding surfboards, but I want to start making them.
[01:51:42] I'm, it really started with being repair and, you know, just, I wanted to be a surfer.
[01:51:48] I mean, we were all surfers.
[01:51:49] We had a huge group.
[01:51:50] We were called the Felspar Rat Pack.
[01:51:51] And there was 30 of us every weekend from Mission Bay High, Madison, Claremont, you see.
[01:51:56] I, you know, I would show up and we would conglomerate at PB every weekend for like four years in a row.
[01:52:02] It was, it was pretty incredible.
[01:52:04] And I just, I don't know, I had such an affinity for surfing.
[01:52:09] And in that neighborhood, we're a lot of people in the surfboard industry.
[01:52:14] You know, you had Bird Huffman had South Coast, Skip, and Hank had Harry Surfshop, and then Joe Roper used to have, like, his first original shop down there on Felspar.
[01:52:24] But so these guys were around all the time.
[01:52:26] So just kind of was like, whoa, that guy's making a living building boards, you know, although they're,
[01:52:31] complete legends in different ways, but that's how it started.
[01:52:36] I would like take boards home and dig repair and, you know, you know,
[01:52:40] hack on my friends boards and charge them 20 bucks.
[01:52:44] What about the fact that, okay, what year's this?
[01:52:48] This would be 90.
[01:52:50] So I went into high school 94.95.
[01:52:53] I graduated 98.
[01:52:54] So, so how did you go from being into like, what a normal 90s?
[01:53:00] Surfer type of surfer and type of surfboard and type of attitude to being like, okay,
[01:53:06] you know what I'm going to actually ride longer boards.
[01:53:09] I'm going to be more traditional.
[01:53:12] Where did that come from?
[01:53:14] Well, to be honest, what really got a sparked in a, like, my group of friends and a surfing was endless summer,
[01:53:20] too, it just come out.
[01:53:21] Like, literally, they remember seeing the third row watching it and he was with me and my friend Joe, and it just was like,
[01:53:27] whoa, and just that kind of sparked, I think, the style of, like, that's how we want to surf.
[01:53:34] I never really, I think the stay I've never ridden a proper shortboard.
[01:53:38] I just, you know, and then what, what he could afford to get me to, you know, my first board was a broken and half guy talking
[01:53:45] along board that got fixed at Island Surf, you know, and that's what I wrote.
[01:53:50] And so that, that was the vehicle and, you know, I think I got a couple swap meat scores for 50 bucks.
[01:53:54] I remember at a rocket fish. So I did ride a couple smaller boards, but never a proper shortboard.
[01:54:00] You know, maybe, I guess I wasn't that, you know, like, I wasn't like a big guy, but I don't know.
[01:54:05] I just didn't, I like the flow and just the style parts of it.
[01:54:10] And then right after endless summer, two, our local hero, Joel Tudor, came out with, I think his first movie.
[01:54:16] And then that was like, okay, yeah, that's how we want to try to surf, and I'm still trying to surf like that.
[01:54:22] Is it everyone? Yeah. But yeah, so that was kind of the combo.
[01:54:26] And again, I think it just was being able, you know, manny down in Island Surf when we were in high school, you know, hooked us up on a board.
[01:54:33] And that's just how it was. That's how we started. Oh, well, actually two.
[01:54:38] So I guess I should backtrack right after that. So I was playing baseball.
[01:54:42] Started majors, which is 11 and 12, and I went into Pony league and I played two years in high school.
[01:54:47] My baseball coaches at Claremont owned Diamond Glassing, Bob Boachy. So, and all the kids on the team were like,
[01:54:54] La Hoya Shore script, you know, rusty rippers, right? They're all riding their shortboards.
[01:54:59] And so that kind of, I was like, okay, and just being able to go to a factory back then, you know, they wouldn't let you look in a room.
[01:55:08] You could ask a question, they just would be like, it's a bail, you know, like, wrong, like, well, build your board,
[01:55:13] but don't, you know, like, don't go nose and and around, you know. And that's how it happened.
[01:55:17] We ordered a Bob Roger Bealshateme, like a two plus one, high-prote 90s, perfect 90s long board.
[01:55:25] And then, my next board, that one broke, broken half, and then the next board.
[01:55:31] It was pretty classic. The start of my sophomore year, broke my leg and soccer and my board.
[01:55:35] Well, broke the board first, then my leg and soccer the next week.
[01:55:38] So I started the school year out on crutches. I was pretty funny.
[01:55:42] But the next two boards I got were, was a Stu Kenshin 90s high-prote, you know, long board.
[01:55:49] And then Joel's movie came out.
[01:55:51] I went, oh, I want a nine-four round pin single pin.
[01:55:55] And so we went back to Bob and Bob's like, yeah, yeah, Stu, can shape anything.
[01:56:00] And what's crazy looking back now is when I went to order that board,
[01:56:04] Stu's like, hey, come in, my room, check this out. You should get one of these.
[01:56:07] And it was the first six, six karma model that he had shaped for Joel, right?
[01:56:11] So that anyway, so that, yeah, that's how.
[01:56:14] But we had that crazy end with the Bochis, you know, as a baseball coach,
[01:56:18] but owner of, you know, one of the biggest clash-ups I think in surfboard history.
[01:56:23] Yeah, and it's, and you still, at some point, your brain is saying,
[01:56:28] I just don't want to ride these boards. I want to, I want to shape these boards.
[01:56:32] Yeah, but what, how old were you and you said to yourself, I'm going to shape a board?
[01:56:36] I don't know, at 16.
[01:56:39] The, the final case, so do you watch morning of the earth or something?
[01:56:42] No, no, no, no, I didn't even know about that.
[01:56:45] It was just, it was more like, we would watch the shortboard videos,
[01:56:50] like all the lost videos, you know, and that's what we'd watch,
[01:56:53] like the Taylor steel stuff, like momentum and focus, like, that's what we watched,
[01:56:57] but somehow, like, I ended up just being the longboarder in the group,
[01:57:00] so to my friend, Joe. But I think it was just, I wanted, you know,
[01:57:04] he was a carpenter, so I think I kind of have that in my genes.
[01:57:08] And I really just wanted an excuse to be able to keep surfing as long as possible.
[01:57:14] You know, and I thought, well, you know, shape and boards might be the way.
[01:57:19] And, you know, he came down, dropped me off on a Friday or whatever,
[01:57:25] and skip was out, picking up trash.
[01:57:28] And, and I was like, yeah, I remember the one, you know, maybe I maybe watch him shape a board, right?
[01:57:32] And so he was okay, he'll go ask him, and he gets out, and I'm like,
[01:57:36] I'm riding down on my dad's truck, you know, my gosh.
[01:57:39] Super man.
[01:57:40] Tell us about fias, you know, obviously not everyone that listens to this podcast,
[01:57:44] surfs, and even some people at surf, well, no most people at surf.
[01:57:48] Tell us about skip, right?
[01:57:50] Well, yes, skip, fry. He is, I mean, he's such a legend.
[01:57:56] It's hard to, I mean, original surfer shape or from San Diego,
[01:58:00] grew up in Bay Park and went to Hawaii with the wooden sea crew back in the day,
[01:58:04] and he really became one of the top surfers in that era, and still is.
[01:58:09] And he, I mean, my words aren't going to do him any justice,
[01:58:12] but he's sort of the kind of, one of the last guys from, that say, the Golden Era,
[01:58:18] you know, that mid to late 60s, it really designed and served and tested,
[01:58:23] and, you know, and would go back and redesign and retest,
[01:58:27] and of that era that's still around. He's still doing a 77,
[01:58:31] and he's more stoked now. He's changing his fins.
[01:58:35] Oh, I did, you know, I wrote this board with this fin set up,
[01:58:37] and I mean, that's the first 10 minutes of any conversation with him,
[01:58:40] not like, oh, however the waves, he's like, no, but I really, you know,
[01:58:43] he's just to see somebody at 77 is stoked as a 14 year old.
[01:58:48] That's that skip. I mean, I, again, I can't, I can't do him any justice
[01:58:53] as far as what he means to not just me, but the sport in general.
[01:58:56] I mean, he really is our compass for.
[01:58:59] Yeah, it's, I'm sitting here as you're sitting here, as you're sitting there,
[01:59:03] struggling to describe how you describe skip and what he means in surfing.
[01:59:09] You know, I guess, I guess just the word legend, like he's, he's,
[01:59:14] the legendary, shapeer, surfer. He's sort of the, the pinnacle of what that means.
[01:59:22] And if you say his name, everyone just goes, oh, yeah, well, that's skip, right?
[01:59:26] Yeah. And, and at some point, so, so your dad, you know,
[01:59:32] Dave, you just said, okay, well, go ask him. I don't think that's octo.
[01:59:35] I told him, I said, he's just a man, you know, and I went up and I just,
[01:59:40] excuse me, Mr. Fry. And I asked him, I said, hey,
[01:59:45] can my son watch the shape of a board? And he doesn't, you know, I got,
[01:59:50] I got burned by somebody or something like that, you know, and, and took some of his
[01:59:54] shapes and I don't really do that. And, but he says, you know what,
[01:59:58] I'll watch him in the bottom and just check him out.
[02:00:02] And then, and went from there.
[02:00:04] Yeah, really was just an organic thing. So I was 18, San Diego State.
[02:00:10] I went to state on grant money because my mom wasn't around and he didn't
[02:00:14] really make that much money, you know, at the time. And so, I get this grant
[02:00:18] check. My freshman fall semester, you know, and I'm on, well, wait.
[02:00:25] Okay, I've already got books, schools paid for it. And I've got that much money left.
[02:00:29] So I went down and at that point, you'd walk in the heres.
[02:00:32] Donna was at the desk, you'd talk about what you'd want.
[02:00:35] And she'd go, okay, go to Mitch's, here, get this blank, you'd wait for a week,
[02:00:39] get the blank, go back. And then you'd hopefully talk to skip.
[02:00:42] You know, a lot of people Donna would just deal with, but thankfully,
[02:00:46] skip came out and he's like, well, what do you want? I go, well, I know your boards are really different
[02:00:51] from everybody that in the neighborhood that rides them, you know, you can ride a
[02:00:55] fry, you probably won't ride other boards. And so I just kind of want to
[02:00:58] enter Dr.y. model, you know, what would be a good representation for me to
[02:01:02] learn, you know, want to surf your style of boards. And so it was a
[02:01:07] 9, 6, 8, 2 plus one. And anyway, so from when I dropped the blank off
[02:01:12] until the shape came, it was about three months. And just organically from surfing again,
[02:01:17] his shop was on the street that I grew up surfing. So we'd see each other in the water.
[02:01:22] I Donna kind of, you know, struck up a, I mean, a relationship with her.
[02:01:27] She kind of took me under a wing as I go on over kids, quote unquote. And
[02:01:31] and just organically became closer and closer with them to where, finally, I got the call.
[02:01:37] He goes, hey, you're up. I'm going to shape your board tomorrow. Why don't you come
[02:01:42] down and we'll go for a surf. And then I'll shape your board and you can watch.
[02:01:47] And I go, all right. I was like, freak. Now, I'm like running across campus,
[02:01:52] right to get home and like go home and tell my dad. And so that's that's what
[02:01:56] went down. We met at the shop the next day. And he pulled out two of his personal
[02:02:00] 96 eggs. And we walked around the corner down the stairs. All my friends
[02:02:04] were across the street sitting on their tailgates. Like, what? You get into right
[02:02:08] a skips personal. And you know, and we went out and surf really fun
[02:02:12] PB like for a couple hours, like a really good session. And we went into the room
[02:02:18] and I just sat on the toolbox and it was, I don't know. It felt like it was like
[02:02:24] 10 hours long, but it probably was only a couple hours. But man, I was jacked.
[02:02:27] I was so jacked that driving home, I almost fell asleep, driving home.
[02:02:31] You know, and you hadn't shaped a board at this point.
[02:02:34] We, okay. So the summer after my senior year, I just was like, I'm going
[02:02:39] to go for it. And he let me build a proper, sci- shaping room in the
[02:02:42] garage. So I worked. There's a wall in Coronado across the
[02:02:46] golf course that I spent all summer working with a master bricklayer.
[02:02:50] And so I made a good money. And so we put it into a shaping room. And
[02:02:54] literally split the garage in half. I had a eight by 16 by eight.
[02:02:58] So a proper, even by today's standard, it's a proper room. And so I had that
[02:03:04] prior to, you know, the board was coming from skip. And so that was
[02:03:10] Bill. I got to watch that. And I think the very next week, I got a blank and went
[02:03:14] for it, you know, and then course, butchered it. I don't even think that
[02:03:19] one got glass. But I actually think we tried to thin it out with a
[02:03:23] router.
[02:03:24] So I just thought, you know, I didn't know. I didn't know.
[02:03:29] See back then, there was no. I didn't have a planer then. All the old
[02:03:32] guys are like piss off, gromm, like I'm telling you what I had to do
[02:03:35] that or what tool to use or like figure it out. And there's no
[02:03:38] YouTube at this point to go and just watch everyone shape boards.
[02:03:42] Yeah. So you really were just literally on your own. And yeah,
[02:03:46] so we butchered that first blank and then got to watch skip shape
[02:03:50] that egg and then I went back and it okay, and add a little more, you
[02:03:54] know, with the leftover money from the from building that wall, I bought a
[02:03:57] planer and slowly started. He got me a block plan and a
[02:04:00] sure form, right? So kind of just really slowly put the pieces
[02:04:04] together, like, okay, I can at least thin this thing out and not,
[02:04:08] you know.
[02:04:09] But, and then so with with that was 98.
[02:04:14] Fall in 98, spring and 99. And so for like the next two and a half
[02:04:18] three years, like every day was surfing with skip and watching
[02:04:22] him like that's just what went down. Like I just going
[02:04:25] hang out when he wouldn't even say anything to me and I just
[02:04:27] hang out in the corner of the room, you know, and I do
[02:04:30] errands for Donna or I'd watch the shop if they had to go to a
[02:04:32] lunch meeting or whatever. And yeah, I was a real
[02:04:36] special time to be able to do that.
[02:04:39] Of everyone of every person that would have wanted to be in that
[02:04:45] position, what do you think it was that he saw on you that said,
[02:04:50] you know what?
[02:04:51] Oh man.
[02:04:52] I'm good with this kid.
[02:04:53] I don't know.
[02:04:55] I have no idea. Yeah, I really don't know because there's
[02:04:59] been dozens of other people that have probably tried to
[02:05:02] put themselves in that same position.
[02:05:04] And I don't know. I think part of it was maybe having
[02:05:07] Donna be like, yeah, this is a good kid. You know, he's one of
[02:05:10] my kids. There's another guy Ryan Levinson that she kind of
[02:05:12] gave the same title to and so we were around a lot. And I think
[02:05:16] slowly, you know, I would, you know, skip saw who I was and my
[02:05:20] demeanor and that type of thing and how stoked I was, of course.
[02:05:24] I mean, how could you not be? But so yeah, I don't know.
[02:05:28] I don't know.
[02:05:29] Look, we're at now at the blow.
[02:05:31] I'm not.
[02:05:32] Which at what point did he let you take a pass with a
[02:05:36] planer?
[02:05:37] Well, you know what?
[02:05:39] I, I, I haven't. I didn't. I didn't in his room.
[02:05:43] But the way just going and watching and talking and having
[02:05:48] him show me this, I would go home and literally repeat
[02:05:51] that step, you know, so it was kind of like,
[02:05:54] it wasn't until later on that we started kind of building.
[02:05:57] We filled maybe 10 or 12 boards together.
[02:05:59] We're off the thin one out and template it and he'll finish
[02:06:02] it or vice versa.
[02:06:04] But yeah, those early years, it just was like studying
[02:06:07] watching, I don't know if that's just how I grew up.
[02:06:10] Like, that's how I started playing golf because I'd watch
[02:06:12] golf on the on the weekends with my grandma all the time.
[02:06:15] And then I'd go out and hack dirt all over the middle of the
[02:06:18] street.
[02:06:19] But that, you know, just like by watching and doing watching and
[02:06:21] doing, I don't know. So that's kind of how that came about.
[02:06:25] And then what was the growth of from you,
[02:06:28] butchering blanks to you selling a blank for our
[02:06:33] selling a board that you shaped for to break even.
[02:06:36] And then to eventually make, you know,
[02:06:39] $10.30 bucks, $50 bucks.
[02:06:42] I mean, so yeah, shaped the first board of shape was a nine
[02:06:46] five long board and then the second one was a rocket fish.
[02:06:51] And then that whole crew that I grew up with at the beach,
[02:06:54] oh, you're building boards.
[02:06:56] Well, yeah, I want to build you one.
[02:06:58] You know, it's charge of half the blank cost.
[02:07:00] And so if it's a long board, the blanks were a hundred bucks,
[02:07:02] charge of $50.
[02:07:03] And then I think, Robert Joe, Robert had hisding repair on
[02:07:06] marina Boulevard and he would glass them.
[02:07:08] And in fact, that was really cool too.
[02:07:10] And to skip shape that board, he goes,
[02:07:12] okay, you can take it over to Joe's, because he would always
[02:07:15] take it to the glass at right.
[02:07:16] So that was really cool. So Joe glasses my first
[02:07:19] fry and my first board I ever shaped.
[02:07:21] So it's pretty kind of a cool little story there.
[02:07:24] But yeah, Joe would do that.
[02:07:25] And he still does it. He still glasses.
[02:07:27] Kids like like like like me now,
[02:07:30] and he's filled in their first second third, tenth board.
[02:07:33] And he's glass and I'm still.
[02:07:34] It's really cool.
[02:07:35] Yeah.
[02:07:36] So then it just started escalating.
[02:07:38] And you started actually where someone outside of your cruise
[02:07:41] says, hey, I wouldn't mind one of those boards too.
[02:07:43] And now you can charge him the full price of a blank.
[02:07:45] And he's been in a half of it.
[02:07:46] Yeah, yeah, I guess kind of, I mean,
[02:07:49] so there was sort of a, I went to Spain for my fourth year of
[02:07:52] school, right, for a year, well, 11 months.
[02:07:54] And so I did do any shaping, of course,
[02:07:56] and hardly any surfing.
[02:07:58] There's a number of boards out there.
[02:08:00] I think I want to say there's about 75 boards that were shaped prior to that.
[02:08:04] I mean, I was doing one a month, maybe, you know,
[02:08:06] or maybe two a month most.
[02:08:08] And then that was what we called the Spring Valley New Era.
[02:08:12] Or excuse me, the, all my, the numbers were SV1, right?
[02:08:16] Spring Valley, which is classic, because here we are in PV,
[02:08:19] but I'm shaping them in Spring Valley anyways.
[02:08:21] So then when I came back, it was SV and E like Spring Valley New Era.
[02:08:26] And that, I was like, yeah, I really want to do this,
[02:08:29] but I also wanted to finish school.
[02:08:31] I got a degree in Spanish, lit from San Diego State.
[02:08:34] While I was studying Spain, a friend came over and then
[02:08:37] did you have any kind of plans like to,
[02:08:40] what to do anything with that degree?
[02:08:43] Oh, yeah.
[02:08:44] So my best friend.
[02:08:45] So at some point, you're going to be a normal person.
[02:08:47] Yeah, in my head, I'm thinking, well, teachers have 180 days of year off.
[02:08:51] That's sick.
[02:08:52] Right?
[02:08:53] So that kind of was the plan.
[02:08:55] I went in for international business and they go, look,
[02:08:57] it's going to take you seven years to get out of here.
[02:08:59] And I'm like, well, I'm going to want to be in college seven years.
[02:09:01] So I went in with a high level of Spanish that I went right into upper division,
[02:09:06] Spanish there.
[02:09:07] So I knew I could graduate quicker with a Spanish degree than trying to go,
[02:09:11] excuse me, international business.
[02:09:13] So that's, but when I went to Spain, my whole world got turned into the wine business
[02:09:18] because a friend of mine had graduated and I'm like, what are you doing over here?
[02:09:21] We traveled for a month together.
[02:09:22] It was pretty amazing. And he goes, well, be a wine importer.
[02:09:27] And so our Spanish teacher from high school was like, okay, well,
[02:09:32] his name was Tom Tom, you put it together and I'll give you guys a little bit of back in and see what happens.
[02:09:37] And so I came back from my year, the company got formed.
[02:09:40] He had gotten all the license and literally a month before I graduated.
[02:09:45] Two containers of wine landed in San Diego.
[02:09:48] And it was like, well, he read it, sell some wine.
[02:09:51] We didn't know anything about anything.
[02:09:53] We just knew that we had wine and we had to go sell it.
[02:09:56] So I did that for three years.
[02:09:58] And I call it my MBA in real life, you know, because it was
[02:10:02] Narlie.
[02:10:03] Everything I'd gone through by the time I was 23 was like, what most people go through corporate wise.
[02:10:08] I mean, we had corporate disillusions, you know, five hundred dollar an hour.
[02:10:12] Lawyers, all that stuff.
[02:10:14] And I had learned quick books because I had to take care of all the accounting and all the money and write all the checks.
[02:10:19] And so that's kind of what thrusted me right into like the sort of a bit, I mean, I was a business owner is 50% of the business.
[02:10:27] And it was, do this or like fail, you know, but still living at home, right,
[02:10:33] I'd graduated, still living at home, not getting paid.
[02:10:35] So it wasn't like it was going, but it wasn't real, like the numbers weren't real.
[02:10:40] We're like selling cases of wine, paying rent.
[02:10:43] We might get out 200 bucks, you know.
[02:10:45] So it was a very brutally like difficult time to to to be 22, 23 and completely struggling and completely broke for three years.
[02:10:57] And you're still shaping?
[02:10:59] Yeah, yeah, so the shaping room was still in the garage.
[02:11:03] So again, I would do one a month, maybe two a month surfing, not as much as I used to because now this is like a sinker swim type of deal here with the wine business.
[02:11:13] So a lot of, I mean, we're long hours, you know, in brutal and not getting paid, like, or maybe paid one month and the not paid for two months.
[02:11:21] And, you know, then partnership with investor struggles and, you know, where I don't even talk to him anymore.
[02:11:28] You know, the my old business partner, thankfully my friendship with our teacher is still super tight.
[02:11:34] He's like my best friend.
[02:11:35] And that's survive.
[02:11:37] But the real world experience I got out of that, all the contacts and cold calling, I mean, we went from zero to
[02:11:42] 180, five accounts in a year.
[02:11:44] I don't know how to, anything about wine yet.
[02:11:47] You know, I went, I learned a lot quick, but just that daily brutal cold call cold knock.
[02:11:52] Hey, they're like, who are you?
[02:11:54] You know, all the old guys that have been in it for 30 years, like, is it not good you guys?
[02:11:58] But we, it was unique because we were the importer and distributor.
[02:12:02] So we kind of had a position of like, like, well, you guys get to go to Spain.
[02:12:06] Like, yeah, we were in Spain.
[02:12:07] You know, my partner just went to Chile to get the wine.
[02:12:09] So it was legit, but we were like these young kids, you know, like pretty, that was it.
[02:12:14] It was, that was a, nearly three years.
[02:12:16] And my I came out of that pretty spun out.
[02:12:18] And then, and then at the end of that, it just did it go under, did it.
[02:12:21] Basically, my partner got married and then he got pregnant and cheated.
[02:12:28] Well, you know what I mean?
[02:12:30] They got pregnant.
[02:12:32] And I'm just like, are you, what, how?
[02:12:36] Like, I'm living at home, not getting paid.
[02:12:39] You're like, getting ready to have a kid.
[02:12:41] So what it happened is he got, he went and got a real job working for another importer of produce.
[02:12:46] And then so he's like, I want to out.
[02:12:48] I'll let it to years.
[02:12:49] And I was like, no, no, I don't, I'm like, I want out to.
[02:12:51] Like, you know, and so we worked it out.
[02:12:54] He moved on.
[02:12:56] I consolidated a distributor friend of mine, Jerry Hart saved my ass.
[02:13:01] Let me put my wine in his warehouse so I could get out of a $2,500 month lease.
[02:13:05] Props to Jerry.
[02:13:07] Still see him around.
[02:13:08] He's still in the wine business, legend of the human.
[02:13:11] And then I remember I was at a, in the whole time I'm surfing,
[02:13:15] P.B. Surf Club.
[02:13:16] I'm doing the coalition contest.
[02:13:17] And I'm walking, having this last talk with my ex-business partner about,
[02:13:21] I'm like, look, I want out, man.
[02:13:23] I'm done.
[02:13:24] And so we made, kind of made an agreement.
[02:13:26] And I remember I was in the parking lot at Malibu.
[02:13:28] And that's when I decided I'm like, I'm over this.
[02:13:30] And I call him like, done.
[02:13:32] And so Jerry helped me get out of it.
[02:13:34] Malibu helped me, as you see the light.
[02:13:37] Sometimes.
[02:13:38] And, and Jerry worked with me.
[02:13:42] And we got, we got all the wine into his place.
[02:13:45] And he helped sell it off.
[02:13:47] And I did the full, I had to, you know, go back to the lawyer and pay for the
[02:13:51] Disolution Agreement, all that stuff and walked away.
[02:13:54] And that was like the end of 2005.
[02:13:56] So it's only about two and a half years, almost three years.
[02:13:59] And then after that I was done.
[02:14:01] I was burnt.
[02:14:02] I go, I'm going to go back in the restaurant because I worked tables at place in Quigs,
[02:14:06] which is now what's it called, Wonderland down there.
[02:14:09] Yeah, so I worked there, great crew back then.
[02:14:12] And so I went back and I go, hey, would you guys mind now I have some wine industry experience.
[02:14:16] So now it's like, yeah, yeah, come on in.
[02:14:18] And so they took me right back in.
[02:14:20] And for six months, I just did that.
[02:14:22] I just, I worked there.
[02:14:26] And I also worked at the wine vault.
[02:14:29] And the whole piece I pulled down on the, in the industry, just Chris was always taste our wines.
[02:14:33] It gives, tasting notes.
[02:14:35] Whether he hated or liked it.
[02:14:36] Right.
[02:14:37] And they had just opened up a restaurant.
[02:14:39] So I went down and helped them.
[02:14:40] almost for about a year and a half, after I started Josh Hull surfboards,
[02:14:44] officially in July of 2006.
[02:14:46] And after the wine,
[02:14:50] I sat, I called Skip Aandone, we had dinner go look guys.
[02:14:53] You know, obviously, seen the history the last three years,
[02:14:56] want to build boards. I'm going to go for it. And they both gave me their
[02:15:00] blessing. He said, whatever we can do to help support you, you know, you
[02:15:03] have our support and go for it. And so that's what kind of put it on
[02:15:08] full blast. And then, and then what did that look like when it full
[02:15:11] support from skip and don't a fry look like? Well, just like they're,
[02:15:15] they were there. You know, they weren't bombed on the fact that, you
[02:15:18] know, and they, they obviously, besides those first couple custom boards,
[02:15:22] skip and start shaping everything I wrote. And then I had access to his
[02:15:25] quiver. So it, his boards shaped how I serve. And in my head, I go, well,
[02:15:31] that's funny. Not many other people shape boards like this might be a
[02:15:33] good idea to maybe pay attention and start. So the boards that were
[02:15:37] building, although bricks compared to now were in that style. And they
[02:15:42] knew that. So a lot of the models, it's like, I'm not going to learn
[02:15:46] one thing and then go, I'm going to go over here and recreate a wheel. And
[02:15:49] so I've just tried to take what those initial formative years. And
[02:15:54] with how I serve and other influences and put together what we've
[02:15:57] got. But it was just, it was good for me to know that they had my
[02:16:00] back, you know, anything, anything I needed. I mean, support wise or, I
[02:16:06] mean, skip and I were still surfing together all the time. He's taken
[02:16:09] me, you know, he took me to Mal, but the first time swam is Clip,
[02:16:11] San Olikeb. Really, it wasn't just the board thing. It was wind,
[02:16:15] tide, weather, swell direction, interval, this reef that reef. Because I
[02:16:19] have windows at school, hey, skip, I got two hours. And he go,
[02:16:22] go, go, go here. You know, and sure enough, it show up at a
[02:16:26] right place and get waves. So it was more, more schoolier than just
[02:16:30] the board stuff. The one was the escalation, looking like in
[02:16:34] terms of going from where, you know, you start Josh Hall
[02:16:38] surfboards to where, I mean, you know, obviously when you start off,
[02:16:42] you got to sell some of the boards. You got to get some of them
[02:16:45] one or two and three. And then eventually the word gets out there. And,
[02:16:50] you know, how long does it take before you go before you're actually
[02:16:53] have a full time job, shape you boards? Um, well, it's, it's,
[02:16:58] it's pretty, it's funny because so when I got back from that
[02:17:01] spanish trip, skip and move to where he's at now and his neighbors
[02:17:06] Chris Christensen famous super famous shaper. And so we became
[02:17:11] friends and when I came back, so my senior year, I worked for him,
[02:17:14] just doing shop rats stuff, sweeping up, clean in the shaping room,
[02:17:17] trash, packin boards, right? Well, when this wine thing came about,
[02:17:21] there was a guy, a Jeff McCallum who's now also a super famous
[02:17:25] shaper. He came into town, went to San Diego State and he,
[02:17:29] he worked at a surf shop on Garnet and he grew up surfing
[02:17:33] and Crystal Pier. And so I go, hey, man, like, would you ever want to
[02:17:36] work at a surf shop? And I kind of knew, like he was like into the
[02:17:39] board thing. And he goes, yeah. And so I said, okay, we'll call
[02:17:43] this guy. And so he kind of took my position at Chris's and he got
[02:17:48] really into it. He was, you know, Chris let him shape at night in his room and then
[02:17:52] glass and and do and so he took everything. I'm building all these things
[02:17:55] start to finish and and that lasted up until my fallout with the wine
[02:18:01] thing started coming. Jeff goes, hey, I'm going to I'm looking for a space,
[02:18:04] would you want a room, run a room from me? I go, yeah. And so we found a place
[02:18:08] over off handcock street, 2006 July 4th, we both shaped our first boards
[02:18:13] and that's how it started. So it was kind of a cool, like I got him into Chris
[02:18:17] but then he gave me the opportunity to leave Spring Valley, right? I was
[02:18:20] living in PB at the time. And and that was it. But as far as getting busy,
[02:18:26] it wasn't till like probably 2010. I mean, I worked it, I worked it three or
[02:18:32] four different restaurants. I actually worked this, I tried to work a summer at
[02:18:36] the Dell as like a valet, Greater at the beach village, but it was like eight
[02:18:41] hours shifts till three in the morning and then I'd wake up, you know,
[02:18:44] from not sleeping. But yeah, it was it was tough. As soon as I think I'd be busy
[02:18:49] enough, like a light and paint rent and, you know, all my stuff, yeah, right?
[02:18:52] I'd go on the whole. Okay, I gotta get some catering night at catering
[02:18:56] jobs because it was quick, big money. So it took a lot of pieces and then
[02:19:01] I went to New York in 2009 for the surf film festival there and I met
[02:19:07] my friend Sancho who was big surfer in the vast country of Spain.
[02:19:13] It also family owns one of the most massive wineries in Rioja. So we hit it off right away,
[02:19:18] you know, speak in Spanish and he was like, yeah, well, why don't you try to come over?
[02:19:22] You know, I have some friends that have small shops, maybe you could come over and
[02:19:25] shape some boards. So that was the fall. I left my the day of October 20th, my birthday is the 22nd
[02:19:32] and I spent six weeks and I traveled, found him and his family's winery, did that. He took
[02:19:37] me up to the vast country and introduced me a couple people. I built some boards there. I went
[02:19:42] down to Portugal and built like five or six boards that are factory down there. So it was like,
[02:19:47] okay, this has potential. Next summer I went back for eight weeks,
[02:19:51] summer after that I did ten weeks. So that that helped. Once that was extra income, the euro
[02:19:58] was super strong. So kind of helped. And I was paying rent at my place here, right, but I just
[02:20:03] and yeah, so since 2010 it's just been on a slow growth pattern. You know, I didn't come out
[02:20:09] with any marketing plans or I mean, the main thing was just try to shape a decent board.
[02:20:13] Yeah, I was going to say your marketing plan is to make really good boards.
[02:20:17] Yeah. Yeah. And I just thankful to work with some of the best glass shops too, which helps
[02:20:22] because it makes it look pretty, but man, I'd give money back on my first house. Maybe I shouldn't say that.
[02:20:28] But yeah, still trying to figure it out. You know,
[02:20:32] those have what is a sentimental value. Yeah, yeah, I still get hit up. I got number 38.
[02:20:39] And you're like, oh, I'm sorry. I know. This was his first logo.
[02:20:43] Yeah. Yeah. So that was a real cool story there. It's like, it's kelp around a
[02:20:49] J. H with like, okay, yeah. Blue water in the background. And that was my friend's wife who's
[02:20:54] an watercolor artist. And she's a, because I first, I don't know, 30 or 40 boards and have
[02:20:59] any logos, right? Because it wasn't like you could just go to a kinko's and have him print up
[02:21:04] rice paper, however you did it. And she's like, well, I drew this logo. I was thinking about you
[02:21:09] and you're vibe and your energy, right? And she came up with that the first time and it, you know,
[02:21:13] bitch, and sits on a board nice and, and so we ran with that for, I don't know, probably 12,
[02:21:19] 1300 boards as the first logo. It's more of sense. You know, you know, you have any boards you
[02:21:24] shape now? I'm just about at 4200 right around that number. Yeah. I, I, I don't have everyone
[02:21:33] documented, you know. But I know the numbers that I did in spring valley. The ones I did the first
[02:21:37] factory with Jeff, and then I moved actually in 2009, I moved to where skip was at. There's still
[02:21:44] four or five other shapers in there. And so I remember the numbers, but I don't have it like to the actual
[02:21:49] board. You know, I know this, I think it's harbour. I think harbour has every board, ever shaped,
[02:21:56] documented. Like you can, hey, you got this seven eight with this number and they can look it up and
[02:22:01] it works up. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I'm shaped it or yeah. So, but yeah, around 4200, so not that many,
[02:22:08] people, I don't know if people think I've shaped more or less. I don't know. Yeah. It feels like a lot
[02:22:12] because a lot of what I do is big volume boards, you know, long boards and big boards. Yeah.
[02:22:18] You get four of them out of a 12 foot or four short. You know, it's one of the things where
[02:22:22] people ask a lot about mentorship, right? They say, oh, would you? And for me, I never really had like the
[02:22:29] mentorship that you get from skip or that you've gotten from skip and that you continue to get from
[02:22:34] skip. That's like the most pure solid, well-rounded mentorship. I never got like anyone in the,
[02:22:43] in the sealed teams that was just given me all that, you know, everything. And I don't say that in
[02:22:49] a negative way. I mean, there's plenty of guys that helped me out and I learned a ton, but I always had
[02:22:52] to kind of pick from like, hey, this guy would teach me about this and then someone else would teach
[02:22:56] me about something else. But I think just the idea of like how you approached skip, who's, you know,
[02:23:05] not exactly a guy that that is looking to bring on a bunch of people to mentor. I mean, I'd say
[02:23:10] anything but that really. Yeah. And yet you ended up in a position where you get to absorb as much
[02:23:16] knowledge as you can possibly get from a moment, you know, that's endless, you know, infinite amount of
[02:23:23] information. But actually, I think it was Joel. I think Joel was telling me that he could be like,
[02:23:28] he'd like look at the weather and he'd be like, oh, you need to go here at 230 in the afternoon.
[02:23:32] And it's going to be good for about 48 minutes. Like that kind of thing. He said it's, his knowledge
[02:23:38] of the water to win the ties. Exactly. And that's, so I'd be at state coming down with my board,
[02:23:44] my car, hey, skip. Where, you know, I've got two hours where, you know, I'll go here and
[02:23:49] sure enough, you know. And then just surfing with them. And we'd go down, do the cliffs runs. That
[02:23:55] those are like some of the most amazing sessions ever, you know. We've had a couple birthday sessions.
[02:24:01] My birthday at October, decent sized south swells on our, you know, 10, 6 and 11 foot boards going
[02:24:06] eight down and three up and it's amazing. Yeah. It's hard. You don't see people, you don't really
[02:24:14] see if any people do in that much anymore. You know, it's just, yeah, I hope skip gets back down there.
[02:24:20] This winter though. Yeah. And I think just again, as like almost a advice is like what the approach
[02:24:28] you took was, hey, be humble, be persistent, you know, show up, absorb, don't run your mouth, you know,
[02:24:36] you want like, hey, can you be my mentor? Hey, can you be my mentor? Hey, can you be my, it's like,
[02:24:39] yeah, you know, hey, can you mind if I just sit over here and just watch like and you prove that over time.
[02:24:45] Yeah. Hey, and, and then he's probably watching you surfing. He's watching you. I'm sure you were
[02:24:49] bringing him boards and going, hey, what do you think of this? And he's probably having a chocolate
[02:24:53] sum of them. And then at least being able to say, hey, a little bit of this, a little bit of that,
[02:24:57] it's going to get you to where you want to be. You know, thin templates are where to put the
[02:25:00] fins and all that stuff. I mean, I still get nervous to ask him for stuff. I mean, we're like
[02:25:06] tight and it's still I go. He's good. But what do you think about, you know, and that's the
[02:25:10] other thing he's so giving. He's like, he'll give it all away. You know what I mean? He really is
[02:25:15] just most humble giving person. When I was, let's see, I guess it was maybe 10, maybe a little bit
[02:25:23] longer that years ago, but, you know, my son serves and he's, he loves surfing and he's been
[02:25:28] surfing since he was a little kid. I remember I got a story. Yeah, okay, a couple. Well, we would see
[02:25:35] occasionally we'd see Skip and you know, I tell like, hey, that's skip right over there. That's
[02:25:42] he'd eat me don't want something to kind of like paddle over, look at him, you know. And he'd be on
[02:25:47] at this time he used to ride this red foamy. It was, I forget, but it was, it was like as nice
[02:25:54] of a foamy as you could get, but you know, he was eight years old and I would take him out on
[02:25:57] big days. I mean, he would surf every swell. But, but then, you know, I was still in the navy.
[02:26:04] Okay. And, you know, he really wanted to skip and he wanted to skip bad and, you know, I was a dad
[02:26:13] in the navy with no money. And how am I going to get my son to skip because they cost a lot of money.
[02:26:20] And eventually, I got, I got a guy up in like day and a point and I found it on Craigslist and he
[02:26:27] had the most absolutely destroyed skip that you've ever seen like an 80 winner egg and it was 300 bucks.
[02:26:36] So, you know what kind of condition it was in for 300 bucks. It was an awful condition. I drove
[02:26:40] up there, my van. I paid this guy 300 bucks and that was that was Santa Claus. Brought Santa
[02:26:47] Claus, brought Skip Fry to my son. We still have that board and he's like, I'll never get rid of this board.
[02:26:53] Yeah. Oh my gosh. Pretty sweet. That's funny. Your story about your son. I'll never forget
[02:26:59] it was North Garbage and surf there a lot. You know, growing up and it was a decent size day and
[02:27:05] like, you know, caught away and I'm going through and and I see you and your kid like just in like
[02:27:13] the danger zone and this, this is before got really crowded with, you know, kind of the beginner
[02:27:17] surfers. This is still crew back then holding it down and I'm like, hey, man, you're going to get
[02:27:23] your kid heard out here and like this like like 55 barrel drum like sits up and just looks at me.
[02:27:29] I go, oh, I was like, I know that look. Oh, sorry. All right. And then I'm like, man,
[02:27:35] like, guys, just going to get this and it was it was Thor. I mean, is that winner? Yeah. I'm like,
[02:27:39] man, and then and then the next winner taking off the front of your house and here it's just
[02:27:45] seeing him just getting shoved in in front of him and like, dark guy again. You know, yeah, I remember
[02:27:54] those eyes cracking up once we became, once, you know, we reconnected and I was like, that was
[02:27:59] that guy, man. I was like totally, has been so cool. Like there was no, there was definitely people
[02:28:04] yeah, because he'd be so young and I'd have them out on man days. You know, like straight man days
[02:28:09] where there's no, there's no kids out. No, I know. And you're going to hurt your kid, man.
[02:28:14] I was each yuck when they may be, we'll see. Oh, man, I just, and now like looking back, it's just,
[02:28:22] that was classic. Yeah. But at times, you can turn into a good, good boy, good kid. Yeah, he's
[02:28:28] um, he's hurt a lot. I know that. I remember doing that. So what's the, what's, you know, where
[02:28:35] you guys at right now, what's kind of, what's the status of Josh Hall surfboards at this moment?
[02:28:41] Okay. So flatlets go from 2010, spent a big summer over in the bass country, just surfing and
[02:28:49] shaping and, and, and then coming back, I'd moved into the complex where skip was at Bob
[02:28:55] Mitzins in there and Michael Miller and Jim Ellington and at the time and all legend guys. And
[02:29:01] uh, I would just, I would just shape shape shape. Okay. I'm going on another trip. Shape shape shape,
[02:29:06] going on another trip. Um, and just slowly building. You know, I got a website. Yeah. I'm on my third
[02:29:13] website now. Um, and so that help people could at least see models and I had one guy, a Japanese guy at
[02:29:20] that time selling mostly customs. He lived here, but he'd sell him and ship him. And then,
[02:29:26] um, we parted ways. It's been six years ago and because I, I, seeing Chris's model, Chris had a
[02:29:33] great distributor ship in Japan. I was like, I want that, man, because it's like consistent boards every
[02:29:38] month, you know, 10, 15, 20, 30, who knows what, you know, numbers he was doing, but I was like,
[02:29:44] that's how you make it. You know, you got to get a distributor. So we parted ways. I went to
[02:29:49] Japan for the Green Room Festival, which was like a music art surf themed festival and how to
[02:29:55] couple contacts here in California that were Japanese surfers. And so they sort of fished around, like,
[02:30:01] hey, you know, Josh Hawkes coming to Japan wants to get a distributor to start, you know, doing some
[02:30:06] real business. Not just, hey, I got 10 custom orders this month, sweet. Oh, I don't have anything
[02:30:10] now for the next two weeks, like something consistent. And that's why I found Holy Smoke, who's my
[02:30:16] distributor now, C.O.C. and we're just September was six years. So that's been great. Not a ton of
[02:30:22] boards, but consistent. And so that once that happened, then it was like, okay, breather,
[02:30:28] let's get caught up on some debt here so I can breathe and then and then slowly go, you know,
[02:30:35] shop in New York, started selling my boards quite a bit. And then just doing that, then I'd go to
[02:30:40] Europe each summer and bang out, you know, 40, 50 boards. And so it kind of had to go all over to get
[02:30:47] kind of a consistent base, but was there a tipping point where your boards sort of elevated to the
[02:30:54] status that they are now, where they went from like, hey, a surfboard to like, oh, that's a Josh Hawke.
[02:31:01] Maybe maybe other people could say that better than me. I just still tried to shape a better
[02:31:06] board than I did yesterday. And I don't, I mean, again, I've been real fortunate to work with the
[02:31:12] best glass shops in San Diego, which helps. And thankfully, they worked with me. And that kind of
[02:31:22] helped, and I think, with the consistency, I think the people seeing the consistency, like, whoa,
[02:31:27] Josh is doing this in Japan. And he's doing that. And maybe that's helped create and then go
[02:31:31] and I used to go to New York twice a year for the fish fry event in May, then I go back and
[02:31:36] September for the film festival. So I think just the moving around and maybe that helped create
[02:31:41] sort of that, like, whoa, those boards are New Yorker. I don't know. I think somebody else might be able
[02:31:46] to answer that. Well, I mean, the other obvious huge thing is you're like, you're just quite
[02:31:52] frankly known as skip fries, protege, and that's what people think. Like, oh, maybe I can't
[02:31:58] get a skip fry because I don't have that much money or I don't have that much time or I just can't
[02:32:02] make it happen. But man, I can get a Josh Hawke. And that's a huge part of it too. I mean, obviously,
[02:32:08] right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's, I guess I should say that, that's like the first thing. Yeah. Yeah.
[02:32:12] That's like the without that goes without saying and just, you didn't go without saying for,
[02:32:18] I mean, you can't just show up. Oh, yeah. I'm going to shape boards like skip fry does. You know,
[02:32:21] you can't, that just doesn't, that's not going to work. You got to, you got to earn that. And
[02:32:27] you know, just because the board, oh, it looks like it might be like it. No, it's got to, it's got to,
[02:32:30] it's got to have a little bit more depth than that. Yeah. And so I think at some point and surfing,
[02:32:35] I mean, I surf. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's true. Skip told me in the beginning,
[02:32:38] it goes, look, if you want to do this as a career or a hobby, like if you want to surf, just worry
[02:32:43] about shape and don't try to do everything yourself. And there's craftsmen out there that do it.
[02:32:47] And I, hats off to them. I mean, I think I've built five or six boards. Maybe start to finish
[02:32:52] in my whole time building boards. So the guys that do that, I mean, that's hard work. I mean,
[02:32:59] you might be able to do four or six boards a week like that if you're laminating,
[02:33:02] thinning, sanding, you know, all that polishing. I mean, that's tough. So I guess I just wanted to
[02:33:08] surf and then build boards. Yeah. And you got to have all those skill sets because none of those things
[02:33:13] are easy. No. And I tell you what, well, we'll get to where the position I'm at now, but there is a
[02:33:19] severe lack of talent in the pool right now. Most of my crew now that is working for me,
[02:33:28] they've been building boards longer than I've been alive. And if one of them goes down, like we're up
[02:33:33] shit Creek. And so, and it's really, and that's something that's changed with like you said earlier
[02:33:37] with YouTube and the internet, like a kid that wants to shape a board now can go,
[02:33:42] did that? Oh, I can buy a package? Oh, sweet. I don't even have to think about it. And then go online
[02:33:47] and watch this guy shape or watch that guy shape. So now it's not where sort of, you know,
[02:33:53] you had to pay dues. Like when I wanted to learn, like you had, you're again, pack and board
[02:33:58] and sweep it up the shaping room and then maybe a little hot coat here and then you might try to
[02:34:02] sand here, but it was like baby steps, you know, because it was having to learn from the ground up.
[02:34:08] And now the big shift is everybody just goes straight to the top. They don't want to mess with
[02:34:12] resin or sand boards and get fiberglass in their pores. And you know, it's, it's a, and it's so hard.
[02:34:19] And that's the one thing people will what makes a quality board. It's like everything makes
[02:34:22] a quality board. And, you know, the sanders got a resanded to my shape based on how good his hot coat
[02:34:28] was set up and how clean the fin cut. I mean, so to, I don't take it for granted because I get
[02:34:34] around enough to see other boards that are out there, but then when I come back to our shop,
[02:34:39] it's like, okay, yeah, I can see the difference in quality. And it's, and it's, it's funny,
[02:34:45] it's only even three and a half years now with the shop, which all get to that story. But what
[02:34:50] we're, what the crew, what we try to like fix now are like my new little things compared to
[02:34:55] three years ago when we started. And, and, and again, you know, takes adjustment to the room
[02:35:00] you're in, it takes the, you know, the light, whatever it takes time to gel and the teams go
[02:35:06] and pretty good. Yeah. And so right now, it's, yeah. So three and a half years ago, again, Jeff
[02:35:14] McCallum, he left that one factory room back in 2009 and then that's when I went and shaped
[02:35:20] in a, in a garage in that same complex that skips in, he goes, hey, man, and he had this shop for
[02:35:26] five years ago, hey, I'm going to get out of this and, you know, the owner or whatever, you know,
[02:35:30] it's something to go on down and end of his leesey goes, I'm going to go try and buy a building.
[02:35:34] So would you, would you want to maybe take this over and I was like, oh, okay, well,
[02:35:41] and my business partner Dave, he and I have been talking for maybe six or seven years and how
[02:35:45] he, he's obsessed with surfing, but he comes from like the finance world, you know?
[02:35:50] And I've known him for 20 years, PB Surf Club member surf in the point, bird rockin' all that
[02:35:54] stuff and we'd surf shores and we would always talk about business, but I didn't, we didn't know
[02:35:59] how he would fit like inside Joshua surfboards and then I told him this opportunity came
[02:36:04] up maybe to take over a small glass shop just down the street from where as that and he goes,
[02:36:07] huh, so he started thinking he comes back the next day, okay, let's do this.
[02:36:11] Let's start a new company, we're 50, 50 liability, everything, investment, you know,
[02:36:16] I don't know, I go profit, all that stuff, I go, I go, sure, but here's how it's going to be set up.
[02:36:22] I'm going to keep doing what I'm doing, which is traveling around surfing and shaping.
[02:36:26] I will make it so that you guys have foam every week and he goes, okay, and so he's run the shop,
[02:36:33] he's actually, he's involved in, he does all the hot coating on the decks and the resin loops
[02:36:39] and he pays the guy as he orders stuff and he basically runs it, I just make sure that there's
[02:36:44] foam there organized, hopefully by Tuesday at noon every week because that's when we start batches,
[02:36:50] but so that, so Jeff had given me a year to kind of like, suck it out because there's no,
[02:36:56] I can't just go higher, somebody to laminate color, tint jobs, you know, I can't go, so
[02:37:01] we started putting the word out, started with my sander Wade who was working at Diamond,
[02:37:05] glassing and who's also a fry guy and so we've always gotten along and he was, well, I know,
[02:37:11] one, so he kind of put us onto a laminator and then I knew a guy that could sand and also do fins
[02:37:19] and then we had a polisher that I had worked with back when I worked at Chris and like,
[02:37:24] oh, three, Alfredo is still around and so we just kind of put it together and it's funny looking
[02:37:29] back now is we'll do 15 packs and we could barely do six back then like six was a big week,
[02:37:34] four I think we did four packs the first couple months so and then in that time you know,
[02:37:39] diving glassing shut down and we picked up the glosser polisher there and also the
[02:37:46] fin laminator guy John that puts the fins on so it's really become this like real tight crew
[02:37:52] and again, legends beyond me, I mean these guys have been building boards for 40 plus years,
[02:37:56] I just happen to be the kid that's given him foam, you know, so really super thankful and Dave
[02:38:02] runs a super tight ship, you know, there's not there's no money in glassing so if we can
[02:38:06] squeak out 20 bucks a bore that's what we're doing so we're trying to change it though but
[02:38:12] slowly everybody needs to do it together, right, every shape or every glass shop needs to
[02:38:17] work together and hey like eight people touch that thing and they're making 10 bucks an hour
[02:38:22] come on you know so we're trying to try and elevate you know everybody kind of talks and oh yeah
[02:38:28] well my whole sale in this board's this now oh okay you know it's tough it's right now there's
[02:38:36] a group of us taking you know quality and prices so everybody can actually make a living or hope to
[02:38:42] up and then you know there's still guys it they give their work away and I'm like
[02:38:45] ah what you charge more you're worth more you feel boards for you know this guy this guy and
[02:38:51] for 35 years like come on don't be because they're scared they go oh if I up my price I'm not
[02:38:56] not going to have any orders but you got to kind of trust in it and like we came out swinging
[02:39:02] like I remember when we started in 06 it's like no this is my minimum here it is and it's just
[02:39:07] slowly gone up from there you know but yeah it's the classic I mean you're doing something in
[02:39:14] America you're building something in America you're building the highest quality thing that you can build
[02:39:19] with what we yeah with what we can what we're allowed to yeah chemical wise and stuff it's getting
[02:39:24] pretty tight in California yeah but you know we've got all the permits we're doing it right so
[02:39:30] and all that stuff costs money a lot of money and that's that's part of what that's part of the
[02:39:36] American dream it's what you fought for yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah
[02:39:41] if did it for us to have these opportunities go out there and live in this country and
[02:39:46] proud of this guy yeah yeah yeah so this guy for Jagging my ass to the beach every weekend come on man
[02:39:53] actually today I think we're we're moving into the sweet next to us I need a bigger shaping room
[02:39:59] and a little I've been building some stockboards and putting them on the website and that's actually
[02:40:03] proved to be nice because it's like oh you sold a board and you didn't you were surfing you know
[02:40:08] so that's been cool so we're gonna kind of have a nice you know wall front where we can at least
[02:40:13] display the boards properly and and take good pictures and that way guys are more informed and such
[02:40:18] try to work on the blog I haven't blogged in a long time but I used to be super into it
[02:40:23] yeah well now you're too busy surfing and shaping yeah but that was the point
[02:40:28] well listen we we've been at it for a while and um I don't want to I don't want to keep you guys up here
[02:40:33] much longer I think our air conditioning I may have failed to turn it on it's warm yeah it's probably
[02:40:39] able to do that on the long legs yeah yeah that's awesome you know so it's
[02:40:47] jocheholzerfords dot com is where is where they can find you on Instagram your same thing
[02:40:53] jocheholzerfords on Facebook your jocheholzerfords do you have Twitter? I don't no I really have
[02:41:00] enough time to keep up with those three things little yeah but uh and uh you know we were talking
[02:41:06] earlier I'm hoping to get some I want to put some jochehol custom t-shirts on the jochehol store
[02:41:15] and get them out there so maybe we can put some like that because yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah
[02:41:18] sure people would be so to support an American craftsman yeah on the day to day even if they live
[02:41:26] in Iowa where they don't surf but they work hard like you know like good Americans do but um
[02:41:32] you guys got a you got a closing thoughts Dave we got to talk about archery oh yeah yeah yeah
[02:41:39] yeah my newest obsession yeah you're obsessed with archery oh geez Louise yeah well thanks to
[02:41:45] this guy so his brother was an elk there isn't elk on it used to be and I got a little bow and
[02:41:49] I was 10 will compound bow and a 3D target and I go blast arrows into that thing and and then
[02:41:55] they kind of hadn't talked a long time and through I guess it was listening to Joe Rogan's podcast
[02:42:03] and then who else and I had some other friends and well so my fiancee Torries she's
[02:42:11] grown up shooting bows and guns and both her sisters and of course her dad so he's like um well
[02:42:18] you know my uh my Fred Bob owns performance archery oh yeah and I was like wait that's the one from
[02:42:24] Joe's podcast and I was like okay so he just made the introduction and went up there and
[02:42:29] and Bob's a surfer yeah yeah so I just like well how cool is this you know and and uh went up and
[02:42:35] and kind of started to geek out online there's a lot of info out there Sean Dudley
[02:42:40] and he puts out his insane and so I kind of was geeking out and and uh went up and
[02:42:46] Bob just needs to set me up yeah and man I've been shooting her was every day since
[02:42:50] yeah well we'll definitely have to get after that range which I've been bent to the one up
[02:42:55] by Bob Bob Bob I've had it's quite a neat the cabrio bridge yeah me to drive by it every day
[02:43:00] when even notes there yeah so we're going to hit that yeah man we should it'll be fun and
[02:43:05] and I got some other trips plan where you can hopefully uh go and as they say get after it
[02:43:10] yeah yeah we'll do it we'll do it that'd be fun yeah but anything else
[02:43:17] no not really I you know enjoy this I guess pretty much no I did yeah you did good dad
[02:43:25] no great to hear you and it's an honor to have you on and I'm telling you
[02:43:30] I'm gonna tell you guys people will learn a ton from from what you said and from your experiences
[02:43:35] and what it looked like from your perspective it's it's awesome it's an honor to have here
[02:43:40] you hear just the truth yeah then I mean Josh just to see you know what you've taken from your
[02:43:46] dad and how you've turned that into a business and you've found your way you know different
[02:43:50] people are out there and they're doing different things and you know I appreciate your service
[02:43:56] and I appreciate you sharing the stoke worldwide yeah man it's like the glide oh I just want
[02:44:02] to say I I was real fortunate besides him and skip I've had a lot of good mentor life coach
[02:44:08] people in my life so that's been a big big deal I have friends that don't have that and now that
[02:44:14] we're getting close to 40 you can see it you know and so I just shout out to those people
[02:44:19] I've had a lot a lot of help extra curricularly to get through it all and here we are right on and
[02:44:25] I'll tell you what for everyone you can see I mean Josh is a great example and you know like I was
[02:44:31] talking about earlier if you're in a position where you can reach down and you can give somebody a
[02:44:35] hand if you can give someone some help but you can say hey kid come this way your hey kid go that way
[02:44:40] you know you can have a huge impact your huge impact on their life and getting them pointed in the
[02:44:45] right direction yeah that's it's kind of too bad people keep that inside them and don't share it
[02:44:51] I know that their experience over their skills I know but you got you got to share it yeah you
[02:44:58] got to listen yeah well that's my grandpa he's like I don't care if you disagree you got to listen
[02:45:03] to somebody because they might have something that you don't for maybe they put it in a way you
[02:45:07] didn't think of well you can grow from that I guess to your point what as I just said hey if you're
[02:45:13] out there and you're in a more senior position reach down and help people out and if you're one of
[02:45:18] the young bucks out there then like Josh just said open your ears and have a listen because people
[02:45:25] got some good information for you and they can point you in the right direction so you don't have to
[02:45:28] learn the lessons the hard way there you go yeah awesome all right thanks for coming on guys thank you
[02:45:34] appreciate it thank you and we'll see you in the water all right at this point our guess Dave and
[02:45:46] Josh Hall have exited the building and awesome to talk to them and wrapping it up there you know talking
[02:45:55] about sharing what you know yeah with other people and I think it's a good opportunity for you
[02:46:04] echo Charles to share you know with us what I know yes what you know all right I know this when we
[02:46:10] started you too I know what kind of gear we're gonna get so okay we'll uh we won't delete
[02:46:18] dally how about that I'm not gonna make that leap quite in how about this I'll try not to
[02:46:26] delete okay but you start talking about you you do all these things it's very dally
[02:46:32] prone prone prone scenarios subject better yes anyway people starting to get to people
[02:46:38] already in due to people doing due to for 15 years here's the gear you get origin why not only is it
[02:46:45] made for due to it's made in the USA all of them boom best geese by far many different selections
[02:46:52] gonna origin main dot com they got some new stuff out too by the way denim coming come it's not out
[02:47:01] well you know well by the time whoever you are in the world listening to this could be could be out
[02:47:06] could be fully out I saw the picture online so to me in my head it's I was just a matter of
[02:47:11] time before it's on on me my body habit is just learned that we're just anybody
[02:47:18] have a test yeah okay I miss you's it's lately but I'm I'm practicing going with anyway also
[02:47:23] they got t-shirts and hoodies rockers rash guard yes for the no-guid jujitsu
[02:47:29] um or you know when you're not doing due to when you're resting on rest days
[02:47:35] that are kind of cold joggers sweatsu when people ask can I do work out and due to
[02:47:42] jitsu on the same day yeah this is a complete yes yes you can and I'll tell you this I think
[02:47:48] you can do jitsu every day and if you can't do jitsu every day because you're physically
[02:47:54] impaired from doing it because the impact of the jitsu itself yeah you're you're not training
[02:48:00] jitsu correctly yeah yeah what too hard is what you're going too hard you're using too much
[02:48:05] strength you're using too much muscles yeah if you can't train jitsu every day you're going too hard
[02:48:10] I'm not saying you might not be sore because you probably will be you may be I should say
[02:48:17] if I do a bunch of hard rounds the next day I can feel it right but I'm not sore like I can't
[02:48:23] work out I'm sore like oh I'm definitely trained hard just right a good way yeah if you're training
[02:48:29] to the point so hard so psycho that you can't train that means you're you're going too hard you're
[02:48:36] using too much strength so you should relax yes I agree well unless you're training with you
[02:48:45] with you since you can never train with yourself you don't know this but speaking from experience
[02:48:52] so I train I haven't trained hard in really a long time trained with you and you know what I
[02:48:56] wouldn't even say we were really going hard like we've gone yeah yeah at all well you know whatever
[02:49:03] I said there there were times where I sensed a sense of urgency a few times anyway my neck hurt
[02:49:11] my neck hurt real bad but it was like right up until the the threshold of not being able to like
[02:49:17] workout that's what it is so yeah it was just a promise so it wasn't hurt I was injured I was
[02:49:23] hurt and this is just from resisting jokes resisting the jokes yes it's exactly what it was and I
[02:49:27] knew to it trying to resist the jokes sorry sir not the last that's I was sort of ego driven
[02:49:37] statement as well I was no no no I use yeah that was a little ego creeping out yeah I want you to know
[02:49:43] that I joke you yeah you know that's just ego I should have like yeah well you know you did a good
[02:49:47] job yeah yeah you should have just what I know I showed some heart I'll say good job yeah
[02:49:52] results I'll tell you that's good thanks bro anyway nonetheless yes workout and do jiu jitsu
[02:50:01] I agree with that actually appears the thing though people's training philosophy is differ
[02:50:07] they differ yeah so like some people they're trained philosophy hey you get the most out of your
[02:50:12] trained good point you know but these are typically and I tried to kind of compartmentalize or
[02:50:17] kind of break it down to myself right where in my opinion and this is just for my personal view like
[02:50:25] I shouldn't like yeah I shouldn't be like super sore or I shouldn't be like unhappy to train
[02:50:33] jiu jitsu you know true I shouldn't be like from jiu jitsu yeah do you and when you
[02:50:41] chair extil do you get sore to the point where you're like oh like I mean I imagine if you do
[02:50:45] chest day is then you're not going to be fired up to do chest day the next day correct right so that's
[02:50:53] that's okay but a hard chest day is not going to interfere with your jiu jitsu day never no there are times
[02:51:01] like let's say I've done a much travel and hadn't done a lot of squatting and then I go
[02:51:07] squat there my sometimes my legs I'll get the doms and it won't stop my jiu jitsu training
[02:51:16] however it is a noticeable factor that I have to contend with that does happen yeah but the
[02:51:24] opposite should happen which is I trained jiu jitsu and now I feel like I can't work out because
[02:51:32] I'm so sore in this particular body part can you get your elbow straight now a little extra yes you
[02:51:39] can does that interfere sometimes yes it does yeah and those are that's like an anomaly that's not
[02:51:44] not a planned part of training you know to get your elbow straightened out and kind of slightly
[02:51:49] micro injury situation or and this is only if that's the plan so if you're like hey I'm going to
[02:51:56] train jiu jitsu Monday no jiu jitsu Tuesday I'm going to lift Tuesday instead you know like some
[02:52:01] people have that plan you know where you're not going to do a two-day scenario then yeah don't train
[02:52:07] don't train twice a day or twice the in a row I don't agree yeah no I dig it but you should never
[02:52:13] be in what I was thinking of you should it should never be like this hard like grind to the point
[02:52:18] where you're unhappy you know like no one should be on that be trained never a great thing yes you should
[02:52:24] you should be like you know what I don't feel like doing this I'm doing it anyways right yes that's
[02:52:27] fine yes nothing wrong with that yeah every time you feel like a maybe I don't want to train
[02:52:31] today doesn't mean you get to not train right no train anyways well especially in jiu jitsu because
[02:52:36] in jiu jitsu if you're like every time you don't necessarily feel 100% like training then you're
[02:52:43] not going to train when you should be training yeah most of the time you're going to get something
[02:52:47] out of it if you maybe instead of doing 12 six-minute rounds you say you know what I'm going to do
[02:52:53] some movement I'm going to get four rounds and maybe you do that instead because you're feeling
[02:52:58] because you do have to one thing I am aware of is if you're tired you're percentage of getting injured
[02:53:03] goes up if you don't want to be in there you're percentage of getting injured goes up because
[02:53:09] you're being lazy and weak and and those are the type of situations you you get hurt it right
[02:53:15] it's not paying attention yeah that's exactly what I was thinking that whole thing where you know
[02:53:19] it's kind of going in circles with the thing where it's like you should never be unhappy or not
[02:53:24] want to train you know kind of scenario but I then I kind of was like wait but there are those
[02:53:29] times where it's like that's kind of part of jiu jitsu the adversity element is part of it and
[02:53:34] but here's the thing when you train that adversity element you're like you kind of you want to do
[02:53:40] that it's like it's like invited to adversity kind of thing do you know just like how you just said
[02:53:45] where it's like hey if you're I don't know so or whatever situation you and you don't want to go
[02:53:49] 10 12 rounds so just get some movement and go four rounds boom you just went to that voluntary
[02:53:57] you know place into your jiu jitsu seems same so it should unless then on top of that it depends
[02:54:06] on who you are I'm going to be voluntary place okay so if you're like hey like okay here's a
[02:54:11] different scenario then if you're a competitor you know this is my my goal is to be a competitor
[02:54:19] now that's a whole different scenario where especially if you have a coach and training partners
[02:54:23] and all this other stuff oh there's gonna be days where you hate it you literally do not get
[02:54:28] some of you literally would choose to not be there literally like I'm not gonna be here today
[02:54:34] but then you have these external elements including your goal your coaches training partners like
[02:54:40] all these things who have the same goals or whatever so there's kind of like a bigger picture
[02:54:44] there so you have to endure that like hey I don't want to be here okay I don't like jiu jitsu
[02:54:48] you ever you ever felt that before no I don't even like jiu jitsu right now like why am I doing this
[02:54:52] no okay seeing I'll joke about it but I don't actually feel like when I was competing in a
[02:54:57] head like a competition like goal like I would feel that sometimes yeah that kind of this is
[02:55:01] dumb like why I want to make you wanna do this yeah like a little baby anyway it's different
[02:55:06] it's different it's different anyway nonetheless back to the gait speaking of scenarios I thought
[02:55:10] this is a no daily dally scenario yeah well you know because I was just a dally we got a
[02:55:16] little little tangent I was like 13 minutes nonetheless back to the gait or gait or gina
[02:55:21] rash cards that's what you do no question no question also supplements so when you are sore
[02:55:27] see you don't have to beat that sore be less you can be less sore yes I know this first hand
[02:55:34] jiu jitsu to make work for and cruel and taking both that's the double the double whammy
[02:55:42] yeah so you don't have to be that sore discipline you can take that maybe if you're not feeling
[02:55:47] I will vouch for this on a day where you're like well I don't know maybe I only do
[02:55:53] three rounds one of them can make myself go in there by the way I'm gonna drink three
[02:55:58] scoops of discipline before I go how many rounds do you end up doing nine so I will vouch for
[02:56:05] that that is a factual thing that will happen you don't feel like it I will mix up you know
[02:56:13] I'll mix up all the kind you know when I don't feel like going but I'm just gonna go because I
[02:56:17] have to because that's the discipline so then I mix up three scoops of discipline 20 minutes before
[02:56:22] I leave my house I'm drinking on the way kind of drink it get here and all of a sudden I get
[02:56:27] out on the mat curks second round it kicks in and I'm like you know it's another round get another
[02:56:33] yeah so coincidentally yeah the day when we trained we haven't trained a long time it's been out
[02:56:41] yep yep we trained that wasn't the plan the plan was not to train it was just to record for me anyway
[02:56:47] it's not like I planned not to train I didn't plan it train I was gonna record boom go home
[02:56:52] that's the routine that's a scenario but I did take strangely enough two scoops of discipline before
[02:56:59] I came in and I'm not joking I totally did and then you couldn't resist and I was like are you
[02:57:04] gonna train or what yeah because all of like you know the the post recording plans they're all
[02:57:13] still there you know and you're like hey let's train it's like noon at that time so other people were
[02:57:17] here you know there's the buzz you know the buzz of training yeah that was going on the two scoops
[02:57:23] you know the buzz of that is going and you're like hey let's train I don't have any closely
[02:57:27] trained by the way so you know what I do I go downstairs by at all for a shower after bought one
[02:57:33] borrowed shorts I went to buy shorts but there was no anonymous size for sale
[02:57:38] and I just used the shirt that I recorded we have skin and these shorts well they did actually
[02:57:43] because I went and saw no Oliver was there who's a small guy that me so obviously a short
[02:57:48] just small as the only ones available I wore his shorts and you know he's one of these trendy
[02:57:51] guys so they're kind of shorter shorts and striped and maybe like half a size too small or whatever
[02:57:59] boom whatever no fast really he's done intimidated by your shorts and that's getting me
[02:58:05] yeah my whole thing anyway the point is when you take the two scoops of discipline yes it does push
[02:58:12] you into those either more rounds or just rounds when you didn't even plan on doing rounds like
[02:58:17] you might scenario yeah there's also we just made a discipline go it's a it's a go pill it's got
[02:58:25] discipline sometimes you don't have time to drink the entire discipline you have done to mix it
[02:58:32] you gotta get a little expedient hit a little go a little hitter on the go so you can just pop
[02:58:39] some of the discipline go pills little little nitropic action little bit of caffeine get your
[02:58:45] good that get that little bit going get you a little bit going yeah so that's that that's out now too
[02:58:50] and then after you do the jujitsu then what you got to recover right boom
[02:58:55] mulk mulk train get right on it mulk train additional protein along with your protein that you eat
[02:59:02] with your food exactly right the steak and boom you're good to go mulk can be used as or it
[02:59:07] should be used as a dessert i'm just gonna say it can be used to it can be used to it can
[02:59:12] should use to those these my whole thing run untie but the thing is what you're failing to
[02:59:18] remember is it can also be used to replace whatever you were going to eat right like a meal
[02:59:24] replay yeah like breakfast mulk and dinner what I have for what I have for lunch and have lunch
[02:59:28] I said mulk yeah and what I'm not only satiated I'm full and I got I got like the happy
[02:59:35] pallets you know because I tasted something good yeah well okay all good I don't like the words
[02:59:43] say she ate it you know what does it mean that you don't like the word say she had it sounds
[02:59:53] kind of like weird so although I will agree with you kind of I think recommended
[03:00:03] dessert that's my recommendation yeah there it is anyway mulk that's it how many
[03:00:09] what flavors now well you're always coming out with a new flavor I think the darkness actually
[03:00:13] darkness dark chocolate is it dark chocolate yeah okay good because you can kind of taste the
[03:00:19] extra chocolate also warrior kid moks because your kid is getting fed garbage that's trying
[03:00:26] they're trying the world is trying to make your kid weak and out of shape and you want your
[03:00:30] kid to be strong and powerful so you give them mulk what are you giving for dessert mulk what
[03:00:36] are you giving them that's what you give them they don't want ice cream anymore they know your
[03:00:40] kid knows ice cream makes them weak they know that and if they don't know that they should you
[03:00:44] should tell them so let them know that warrior kid mulk it tastes delicious and yet it's good for you
[03:00:51] yeah so get some of that the so Halloween just recently was past or came or whatever we just
[03:00:59] finished Halloween right so I contemplated just giving mulk out in stony state of candy yeah
[03:01:06] but then you got to mix it get put little cups and all this stuff and then I don't really have any
[03:01:10] Dave Burke good deal to email me or we were we were talking and he says my goal next year
[03:01:18] is that you have mulk kid warrior kid mulk in packets that we can give out for Halloween he said
[03:01:26] it's just there's the only that's the only way it should be actually that makes sense yeah that's the only way
[03:01:30] it should be you know how you like little kid should be on the mulk train everywhere I agree
[03:01:34] you say that you know how there's like right now you can flip on the news and you can see like
[03:01:38] obesity in America if everyone just gets on the mulk train will just be like America's now you
[03:01:43] you're a pro you're a pro you're not a america now you're what happened they're tracing it back
[03:01:49] to a strange podcast that talked about a a formula that they called mulk and the children
[03:01:57] they started to drink it and now the children of america are yoked yeah the propaganda did it
[03:02:03] well actually that's good because you say like oh yeah that the industry uh is making your kids
[03:02:08] weaker whatever is trying to make your kids we yes but here's the thing that is true yeah no here's
[03:02:13] what they know they advertise they make little cartoony advertisements to eat this sugar
[03:02:19] well yeah it's well you know as as an informed or in my case quasi informed adult and you kind of
[03:02:26] you kind of you kind of sit back and watch the commercials like I see what they did there I wonder
[03:02:30] why they chose that yeah commercial to market their thing you know and a lot of their brothers
[03:02:35] question marks everywhere these these commercials not is anyway yeah when you get like a
[03:02:40] snickers bar right press snickers satisfies you like basically saying hey if you're hungry eat
[03:02:47] the snickers man yeah it's good it's good it might as well just be good for you because it has peanuts in
[03:02:52] it like brother it's like just chocolate and caramel you know like these things are not good for you
[03:02:56] but anyway so they're like saying this they're like hey this satisfying you this is this is what
[03:03:01] you need when you're hungry they're straight up making you weak straight up that's like
[03:03:07] it's hard to argue even that that's there here's the deal though we can't we can't just blame
[03:03:13] you can't blame the food right you can't it's not allowed you have to blame yourself now
[03:03:20] at a certain age your kids are eating what you put in the fridge if you put weakness in the
[03:03:25] fridge they're gonna eat weakness if you put strength in the fridge they're gonna get strong
[03:03:29] if you put milk in the fridge they're gonna get yoke there you go so the choice is pretty obvious
[03:03:36] in my opinion also stand the path while representing get a shirt at jocos store
[03:03:45] jocos store.com that's where it is so you get a shirt this cleaning cool's freedom
[03:03:49] the shirt the joc was always wears every single day of his life's victory MMA and fitness black one
[03:03:56] boom a lot of cool stuff on there in my opinion represent the path
[03:04:01] if you like something get something this hoodie's on there as well rashguards more rashguards
[03:04:05] for jiu-jitsu or anything yeah or surfing. Lave babbin made a comment on instagram
[03:04:15] on the origin instagram feed sure they put a picture of Pete put a picture of
[03:04:21] me Pete and be little in New York City so though and
[03:04:27] it's a statement and i'm commenting about my truckers at something about like y'know the 90s called and once
[03:04:34] they're hat back i actually didn't even realize that's how just completely out of touch
[03:04:40] in my mind this wasn't even a topic like my my hat was something from the 90s that wasn't even
[03:04:46] that fought never never crossed my mind yeah well is that strange technically life batbin is not correct
[03:04:54] If he was doing what I think he might have been doing. I didn't see that comment so I don't know
[03:05:00] Nor did I talk to anybody yet so I don't know currently, but this is my guess
[03:05:05] He was referencing the
[03:05:07] fact that
[03:05:09] Trucker hats were trucker hats and then they kind of were went out they weren't really a style and then you know the whole retro
[03:05:14] Phenomenon where it like that's brought a back style emerges from something you know thing
[03:05:18] So one of the distant past sure yeah, so when the trucker hat came back as a style it was not in the 90s
[03:05:26] If I'm not mistaken it was like after 2000. Okay. I'm pretty sure. I don't know because I only wore
[03:05:33] Yes, I must say I think I had some flex fits along the way. Yeah, flex fit well
[03:05:41] Good news about both of those scenarios is we have trucker hats on jockels door.com and flex fit
[03:05:47] Represent discipline equals freedom on your head in whatever way you want retro 90s
[03:05:53] 80s
[03:05:54] 2000s
[03:05:55] 2018 whenever you like however you like you can get the death court hat
[03:05:59] Yes, you can okay. That's the hat you're talking about yeah
[03:06:02] Yeah, yeah because I was wearing the death court hat which apparently is now a 90s hat no
[03:06:06] Yeah, you know what I think and I'm gonna ask him to confirm but I think he was just mad you had the death court
[03:06:11] You didn't
[03:06:13] Trying to find a way to to be pissed he's lashing out by his own terminology or with his own terminology
[03:06:19] He was drinking the hatred
[03:06:21] To the left-back and busted drink in the hatred right?
[03:06:25] You know yeah some cool stuff on there again jockels door.com if you want to represent on the path
[03:06:31] Also subscribe to the podcast if you haven't already on iTunes and Stitcher and Google play and all these podcasts places
[03:06:37] Where do you listen to the podcast? Subscribe if you have not already also on YouTube?
[03:06:45] Yeah, we do that's where the videos are posted sure you can see
[03:06:50] Dave Hall you can see Josh Hall you can see what everyone looks like you can see what echo Charles looks like you can comment
[03:06:58] About the size of echo Charles's arms and about how echo Charles does not look like his voice
[03:07:05] Yeah, okay, yeah cool. There's at least one person on every one of our videos
[03:07:11] That says
[03:07:12] Echoes looking jack I think the only reason that echo posts these videos is so that he can read through all those comments and see someone says echo
[03:07:21] Looks jerk
[03:07:23] Maybe look at that anyway
[03:07:26] So guilty also where he could podcast don't forget
[03:07:29] Yes, warrior kid podcasts that is also out there and
[03:07:35] Should have some more of those rolling out
[03:07:40] Let your kid listen to warrior kid podcast and if you need to ask questions for Uncle Jake you can do it through my social media
[03:07:46] And I will pass those questions on to Uncle Jake himself and get the answers for you also the warrior kid soap from Irish Oaks Ranch.com
[03:07:54] actual warrior kid
[03:07:56] Is it called warrior kid soap or jocos soap it's called jocos soap from a warrior kid name either yeah
[03:08:01] From a warrior kid name. Yeah, I'm just calling it warrior kid. That's called warrior kid soap. Yeah, well, it kind of is yeah
[03:08:08] He's out there getting after agree
[03:08:12] 100% American made in a hole at a whole new level
[03:08:17] So from the beginning Irish Oaks Ranch.com
[03:08:20] Also psychological warfare that's the little album with tracks where I will tell you why you should or should not carry out something that you know
[03:08:31] You should or should not carry out and we are working on the next
[03:08:35] Psychological warfare album and we'll let you know when it is out
[03:08:39] So you can get some of that and if you have suggestions recommendations
[03:08:43] If you want to know how you should do something sure or not do something
[03:08:49] Yeah, refrain
[03:08:51] Yeah, let let me know and we'll see if it makes the cut
[03:08:55] Yeah, yeah, it makes sense. There's a lot of them out there because some people are like hey, can you get you do a track about not putting croutons in your salad
[03:09:04] Kind of a specific because it's that specific even though that's might be a little broader than you think that croutons taste good
[03:09:10] And we know they're not good for us, but you're like have you like like you're like
[03:09:14] No, it's just a few croutons. So it's no big deal. Yeah, just a little bit of croutons, but then you if you were to assemble your croutons in
[03:09:22] On the plate you probably got a slice of bread there
[03:09:25] You know, yeah, that's true. Yeah, then you realize oh I'm I'm off the path
[03:09:30] I didn't even admit it to myself to myself alive. Well
[03:09:33] What do I like kid then you gotta go, but that's like one of those specific ones like ketchup too
[03:09:37] How much sugar is in catching a lot? You know people that would catch up
[03:09:40] Yeah, or even when you when you go through you know the burger place
[03:09:43] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, hopefully and you were like hey, do you want to meal?
[03:09:48] Oh, I need a psychological warfare for that. No think about it. No meal slash no up size
[03:09:55] No up size yeah, yeah, because I'm like you want
[03:09:58] Super size that
[03:10:00] Yeah, well the super size only comes with the meal so because you can't just super size the burger unless you had a
[03:10:05] I think that all I'm always like a I was gonna give me three parties on that thing
[03:10:09] But there's nothing wrong with that. I'll do that too like if I didn't if I'm fasting or didn't eat that much
[03:10:14] Whatever and then I get it like a hard workout. I'll do that or how much better does food take?
[03:10:18] Taste after you fasted for you 24 hours 48 hours and 72 hours. I would say 25 to 35% better
[03:10:25] How much better does it feel to
[03:10:28] Eat when you know that you've just earned it
[03:10:32] That feels better. Yeah, what person in the chicken
[03:10:34] 50% just just to get that feeling. It's worth fasting. Yeah, just to feel how good it feels to be like
[03:10:44] I totally earned this. I didn't eat anything in 48 hours
[03:10:47] I'm gonna just get this burger on right now
[03:10:50] Yeah, and they're like recommending you break the fast with the burger because that might be smart
[03:10:54] Especially if you're having fries with it. No fries. That's the thing. You don't bet weird
[03:10:59] I've
[03:11:01] Not eaten fries and I like fries. Oh, really fries are good. You hold the line on the fries
[03:11:05] I have been for the path like one year out today. I just had some fries
[03:11:10] See, right? Well someone someone else around the path
[03:11:12] You know someone someone's sorry. It's all good, but you're the man have your fries
[03:11:16] But if you are having weakness is or moments of weakness for fries
[03:11:21] That's another say
[03:11:22] Maybe that should be an album
[03:11:26] No, I'm just saying it's in the same category as the good times. It's the same same
[03:11:30] Oh, I'm not saying no. I'm not saying yes. I'm seeing that's a specified
[03:11:33] Yeah, I don't know if there's any like with crew town juck
[03:11:36] Oh, you know what but I'm having a salad. There's a whole rationalization that takes place there fries
[03:11:40] There's no rationalization. You're just like I'm straight up eating fries right now. You're right. You're right. That's just straight up
[03:11:45] Yeah wrong
[03:11:46] Could you accept for they taste good?
[03:11:48] Really good. I respect the fact that you don't eat fries for one year good job
[03:11:54] If you weren't drinking mountain news coax I'd have more but yeah
[03:11:58] It's okay. Well, you know first things or baby steps right one step at a time. I think Pete Roberts
[03:12:06] He he's like
[03:12:11] He's in a naибler
[03:12:13] He's a food in a blur. Oh for okay. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. I'll be with Pete. He's just like you know
[03:12:18] He just gets after it and I'm with him and I'm like well, you know what he's the one that had he's
[03:12:24] He's the one that inspired the whole cake scenario that went down when I was in Arizona
[03:12:29] Okay, I was just to be at work with him and it's like we I'm like look, I'm not eating cake
[03:12:34] That's not happening. That's like a whole thing. It's just principle. I'm not eating cake
[03:12:37] So you order like a son. I know you order this this crazy milkshake that had whipped cream
[03:12:44] quote for the table right yeah, I'm asking you that for me
[03:12:48] I'm like I never said well I'll have a little bit I'll have a little bit next thing
[03:12:52] You know, it just cake everywhere ice cream. All right. Wait. That's good. That's the Robert's enabler. Yeah
[03:12:57] So now because that probably like caught you
[03:13:01] And this is what this is what you know, it did and it's like oh, you know
[03:13:04] It's like over just here. Haven't seen Pete work talking business blah blah blah
[03:13:08] Here's a shake and this is what pissed me off because you get done with the shake
[03:13:11] Like we got this shake and he was kind of like a table for the you get done with it and I said I
[03:13:17] No kidding would rather have drank a milk
[03:13:20] than that thing and because not just because it's better for you because the milk actually taste better than that thing
[03:13:26] Yeah
[03:13:27] It's too much man when was less than me had like a regular like milk shake
[03:13:33] I don't know probably to prime monitor too. Okay, so I had a regular milk shake and I was hungry too
[03:13:39] Yeah, I was like oh this milkshake and it was from Jack and the box was Oreo cookie shake
[03:13:44] Yeah, and why too much too much though exactly that's my point
[03:13:48] So a drink some the first like two three four five six hits you're like wow this is a good shake
[03:13:53] And then you're like well, I don't want to waste it, you know, so you kind of push yourself to
[03:13:57] Yeah, exactly and then you finish and you're like man
[03:13:59] I can't finish like it's not you know the dude when he called diminishing returns
[03:14:03] You know after about halfway down and I'm like you're like, man, you don't even feel good
[03:14:07] But try drink a milkshake and I drink the big one too
[03:14:10] The double sometimes triple scoop in the big 30 ounce thing but you get halfway you're like more you just want more
[03:14:16] Like you power through the whole thing. It's good. Yeah, so even the experience of it going down is better
[03:14:21] I know right then a sugary scenario
[03:14:24] It seems to be so won't call it away also
[03:14:27] What I failed to mention last time maybe the time before is when we buy it that when we get the books that we cover on the spotcast
[03:14:35] And when we sometimes have the privilege of having the actual offer in this room with us
[03:14:40] I listed them on the website jocopodcast.com
[03:14:43] Book section actually you did say that actually last time
[03:14:47] Oh, but yeah, I got them listed right there boom, so you don't have to go searching or try to remember
[03:14:52] Hey, what episode was this book or what book was on that episode?
[03:14:56] I got it listed right there boom click right through there taking Amazon one day boom you got it got it. That's the way it works also
[03:15:04] To vary up your workout you need some rings if you don't have rings for your home gym
[03:15:08] A lot of people getting their home gym now. I see it online. Yeah
[03:15:11] My neighbor
[03:15:14] We went to church reading so I see his garage is open got a little scenario going on. Yeah, just like you know how people convert their whole garage
[03:15:22] Yeah, which I think is a bold get good
[03:15:24] It's a good move in California. It's real easy to do that in other parts of the country
[03:15:29] You need that garage for vehicles in California not happen. Yeah, so I mean, and that's really that's kind of the point where it's it's kind of like that's a
[03:15:39] When you call like a specific
[03:15:41] Decision that you see someone made they're like what's more important?
[03:15:47] Housing my vehicles yeah the family vehicles by the way yeah
[03:15:51] Or
[03:15:52] Creen and a gym in California what I'm saying is in California. That's not a big sacrifice
[03:15:56] That is big yeah in Iowa that's a big sacrifice when that when that dude converts his gym
[03:16:02] I'm gonna as garage to a gym and I was like, hey guess what in February
[03:16:06] You're gonna be sitting in a freezing car that's negative 20 degrees for at least 18 minutes every morning
[03:16:12] Yeah, but you know what I'm gonna get my time to get my workout
[03:16:17] Exactly right so
[03:16:19] When you're getting your rings get them from on it they're the best rings that I've seen as the granite
[03:16:24] I don't have that much rings experience
[03:16:28] But the ones I got are dope
[03:16:30] Get kind of bells on there to me the artistic ones are the best
[03:16:35] That's my opinion and that's chocolate's opinion to no it's actually not are debatable ever debatable
[03:16:41] I do have an opinion that you should if you need to drink something
[03:16:46] Other than milk or you don't need milk at that time you can drink chocolate
[03:16:53] Chocolate tea you can get it in cans from Amazon prime so you have to pay shipping or you can get the tea bags and
[03:17:02] And it tastes
[03:17:05] delicious and
[03:17:07] more important most important it guarantees a good 8,000 pound deadlift
[03:17:12] So yeah, just sort of do that also got some books got way of the warrior kid and Mark's mission
[03:17:19] Appreciate everybody getting those and giving them to kids. I get awesome feedback from around the world kids
[03:17:27] Getting on the path
[03:17:29] If you read this book and you will say to yourself
[03:17:31] I
[03:17:32] Garentee your say to yourself. I wish I had this book when I was a kid
[03:17:36] Yes, every single person that reads that book is I wish I had this book when I was a kid
[03:17:40] You should just have a little pre
[03:17:43] Conceived idea that when you get done with it you're gonna say I wish I had this book when I was a kid
[03:17:48] So what you can do like we just talked about with Dave Hall and Josh Hall what you can do you want to help out a kid
[03:17:55] Go on Amazon
[03:17:57] Go to your local book seller and get that book and give it to a kid bring it to their classroom
[03:18:02] Whatever it's gonna help kids out and it's gonna help kids out a lot
[03:18:07] Speaking of giving
[03:18:09] If you want to give the gift of discipline to someone that you know get him the discipline equals freedom field manual
[03:18:15] I wrote it
[03:18:16] But you know what I wrote it and I read it
[03:18:20] Why because I need to stay on the path myself if I would have had the discipline because me freedom field manual sitting next to me
[03:18:26] If it was me Pete Roberts and the discipline equals field freedom field manual
[03:18:30] I might not have gotten some of that shake right there that he put in front of me. I've been like no
[03:18:34] Yeah, that's a lie that that whole that you just brought our you just brought a glass of lies to this table
[03:18:40] Well, that's good because you didn't know Pete was like that we should have known because remember when we were over there
[03:18:45] Yeah, like he knows even us like this baccala vine all this like to be a shit stuff and
[03:18:50] And so we should have known but I think it kind of crept up on you like if you would have known like
[03:18:55] I know to the scenario you'd be like oh I'm on the lookout for your thing
[03:19:01] And Pete you know Pete's like a sick athlete you know what I mean like if he played football and
[03:19:07] But you could basketball and set all kinds of records in lacrosse or he's just like an athletic guy
[03:19:13] Yeah, and he probably you know when it wasn't high school just eating everything and psyches he's big
[03:19:19] Yeah, he's trying to be yoke so he's just eating everything and now he's whatever he is 30 whatever years old
[03:19:26] And he's just got that menu in his hand like a criminal
[03:19:32] Yeah, good times so if you're hanging around Pete Roberts or someone else
[03:19:38] That's in the neighbor that makes you feel like it's okay
[03:19:42] That's gonna bring you down the the sorrow the path of sorrow. What's this warmth?
[03:19:46] Slippery slow. Oh, yeah, the swamps of sad this swamps of sadness the slippery slope of of
[03:19:52] The horror if you're around that person if you got the discipline was freedom field man
[03:19:57] You're kind of like deflect their weakness with it. I would just out there naked naked in a frame
[03:20:04] Just get these order up Sundays and
[03:20:08] Terima so it's I just meant two two days with Pete no three days with Pete
[03:20:14] No three nights with Pete I should say was it three was it two anyways every night
[03:20:19] There's this dessert scenario next time. I've got to bring the field manual with me just to deflect
[03:20:25] Yeah, yeah, man actually the more it's for me too. Yeah
[03:20:29] He's not like he's not like he's some jerk guy out of shape doesn't know capability
[03:20:34] And he's like he's like, he's like proud on the more in you in he's born
[03:20:39] You in with like the smiles and we're having a good time and everything's fun and he's like you know
[03:20:43] Well, let's do would you do you want dessert?
[03:20:46] You know when to ask me that P. Roberts the only person to work because you you can get some dessert
[03:20:50] No one asks me that people don't say hey, Chaco you want to see the dessert menu
[03:20:54] They don't ask me that. Yeah, Robert's is like hey, hey, wait
[03:20:58] Or can we get the dessert menu over here for this guy right here?
[03:21:00] He's just a babelid so you don't have any training dealing with that kind of scenario
[03:21:05] Right, you know what I need psychological warfare. I'm gonna make an album for Pete Roberts
[03:21:08] Yeah, and it's
[03:21:11] And it's you know where he gets it from his mom is cooking baklava his wife
[03:21:17] She she puts candy out in front of him
[03:21:20] She just gets after it. Yeah, he'll tell me you'll send me a picture of like a bucket full of bucket full of snickers
[03:21:28] It'd be like hey, I'm on the path right now. This is what my wife does to me. Yeah, you know
[03:21:32] Yeah, there's a whole whole whole
[03:21:37] Sit your way
[03:21:41] Freedom field manual that is
[03:21:44] Gonna help you in those situations and if you need the audio tracks
[03:21:48] It's not on audible dot com whatever it's on
[03:21:52] It's on Amazon music iTunes Google play that's that extreme ownership
[03:21:57] That's the book about leadership. I wrote with my brother, Dave Babin. That is the lessons learned in combat and how you can
[03:22:05] Utilize those same principles for combat leadership. You can use them in
[03:22:09] Your business and in your life and then the follow on to that book is called the dichotomy of leadership
[03:22:14] it
[03:22:15] Will teach you the hardest part of leadership which is learning how to balance between the dichotomy that are pulling you in
[03:22:24] opposite directions
[03:22:25] This is the biggest problem we see we work with leaders all the time and
[03:22:29] This is the biggest problem that we see with leaders. They don't know how to balance that dichotomy of leadership
[03:22:34] So if you are a leader and you things aren't going the way you want them to go
[03:22:39] The likely reason that that's happening is because you're out of balance if you want to learn that balance
[03:22:46] That will make you a much more effective leader
[03:22:49] You want to find an ineffective leader you go talk to a leader
[03:22:52] You find one that's that's imbalance that two foreign one direction to other derails them derails the team
[03:22:57] You want to get back on track get the dichotomy of leadership also Mike in the dragons
[03:23:03] Here's the deal
[03:23:06] Speaking of extreme ownership guess guess what I didn't do I
[03:23:11] Didn't order enough books no I didn't order enough books
[03:23:14] I let me let me let me go ahead and expand on that I didn't order enough books of Mike in the dragons at all
[03:23:20] I didn't I didn't add all I
[03:23:24] As you pointed out last time oh oh I used to give my publisher a hassle and say they didn't get it
[03:23:32] Guess what guess what didn't get it apparently well me yeah, well then again look I don't blame you
[03:23:38] It we just found out that it's just not that easy to predict you know no actually
[03:23:43] I will not make this mistake again. Yeah, okay, so there it is what did I do?
[03:23:48] Did I say well it's because the printer slow or well we're not sure no you know what my fault here's what I'm doing
[03:23:55] We're running off we're doing I've done I've done initiated two more runs
[03:24:01] more printing a bunch of books
[03:24:04] This is the good news the good news is well, okay the bad news is
[03:24:09] It's gonna take a little bit of time and
[03:24:11] And depending on when you order just there might be a little hesitation the good news is these are still
[03:24:17] I'm running the exact same running the first edition. This is it. We're just running first edition
[03:24:22] I'm gonna run it for a while so if you still want that first edition order now and let me tell you what order
[03:24:30] now
[03:24:31] Order now why because if every one orders right now and it's a bigger number than what I predicted which it could possibly be
[03:24:38] I need to know that as soon as possible so
[03:24:42] If you want to get the book Mikey the dragons please order it ASAP and we're gonna my goal is that everybody has it
[03:24:51] As soon as possible definitely want to get it to everyone by Christmas because I know everyone wants to get this book for their kids for Christmas
[03:24:56] Yes book review echo Charles excellent because yeah, so
[03:25:01] I'm mentioning this before that's like okay, it's a good one. Sure. We're gonna get over our fears which is good
[03:25:07] It's real effective by the way of that
[03:25:10] Meaning that the theme meaning that the theme of the book Mikey the dragons is how do overcome your fears?
[03:25:14] Yeah, that's the theme but I'll tell you this that book is a fun book. It's like fun
[03:25:19] It's like it cuz it rhymes in like all this stuff or whatever and you know part of this is me
[03:25:25] Cuz okay, so I'm reading where the warrior kid marks mission the second time around right
[03:25:30] Second time around are you read it before you know all the words so I start getting into it turn on the theatrics with the kids right? They like that whatever
[03:25:38] So you read this Mikey in the dragons one now you got some rhymes in there and it's like you
[03:25:43] With uh marks mission I'm reading like a chapter maybe two chapters a night. That's kind of it
[03:25:47] That's a routine before bed. This one you read the whole thing. Yep straight up plus they don't want you to stop anyway
[03:25:52] cuz it's like one you know
[03:25:54] You know I turn on the theatrics with the rhyming and stuff
[03:25:57] Yeah, it's Danny fun super fun to do like it's as far as an activity like with your kids reading to them, you know
[03:26:05] There's something added there with all the rhyming and it's John Bosach who drew the art and he didn't have a copy yet
[03:26:12] And I when I was in New York I saw him I brought a copy for him and
[03:26:17] He's got a good
[03:26:19] I don't know what I don't know what the term for this laugh is but he's got this laugh that he does
[03:26:24] Almost like a victory laugh. I don't even know if that's a thing
[03:26:28] Yeah, he does like a laugh where he's so happy
[03:26:32] That he can't really contain it so I give him the book. It's still in the plastic these books are individually wrapped in plastic
[03:26:39] shrink wrap and so I give it to him. He like slowly opens it up because you can still you can see through the shrink wrap
[03:26:44] But he's doing this laugh this stuff. I got first trying to imitate it. He's like
[03:26:48] Oh
[03:26:52] And then he's going through each individual page because the coloring is beautiful
[03:26:57] He said that he said that years ago. He said five years ago. It wouldn't be possible to do what we did in terms of matching the color
[03:27:06] That he
[03:27:07] Originally drew the color that he actually used getting it to match perfectly with the book
[03:27:14] He said that is not possible five years ago. Well, it's not possible that we did it that fast because we did it
[03:27:20] It came out the exactly the color it's supposed to be
[03:27:23] Normally if it's five years ago, you had to print one go like okay, make this bring more indigo in or whatever
[03:27:29] More cleansin or whatever and we didn't have to do any that it's a boom. It's been printed. Oh, guess what?
[03:27:34] It's
[03:27:35] Completely correct and the drawings are beautiful. They're amazing in fact
[03:27:41] What we are going to do and I talked to John about this some of those pictures are so gorgeous. We're gonna make
[03:27:48] Postures that have these images on them make sense. Yeah, and that that way kids can put them in the room
[03:27:55] Yeah, and that picture of
[03:27:58] The Prince walking into the forest with that mean come on. He doesn't want that that is just everything
[03:28:05] He's going to face the darkness
[03:28:07] He's confident he's moving forward. He knows he's scared, but he's still going forward
[03:28:13] You put that picture up on your kids wall up on your wall
[03:28:17] As well I'm talking about so I need this that image of that image right there that needs to be big and we just need to get it out there
[03:28:24] Yeah, so thank you
[03:28:26] If you want Mike in the dragons
[03:28:28] Then please order it now so that I know so that I can get it to you as quickly as possible and I apologize
[03:28:34] That is gonna take longer that is my fault for underestimating how
[03:28:39] Fireed up you all would be in ordering that book
[03:28:42] I apologize and what I'm doing to correct it is ordering
[03:28:46] Enough to kind of like the tea when the tea came out we didn't order enough tea and so I ordered more and then that still wasn't enough
[03:28:53] Yeah, and then I I said to Emily I said we need to order enough tea that we never run out again
[03:29:00] We haven't run out again yet. I'm not saying it'll never happen, but we're at least in a really good spot
[03:29:06] So same thing Mike in the dragons if you want it order it echelon front that is my leadership
[03:29:13] Consultancy and what we do with that is we solve problems through leadership
[03:29:17] That's what we do whatever problem you're having with your team or your organization. It's a leadership problem
[03:29:24] So it's me. It's the latefabon. It's JP to Nailed's Dave Burke Flynn cockering Mike's rally and
[03:29:29] Mike Biamah
[03:29:32] Go to echelon front dot com for details that monsters in 2019
[03:29:37] They are coming one's gonna be in Chicago one's gonna be in Denver. It's gonna be spring in Chicago. It's gonna be fall in Denver
[03:29:44] Every other mustard has sold out I had friends friends
[03:29:53] Contact me and say hey just figured out we're gonna come to the master. You know
[03:29:58] I just got four people and I just you know let me know when I should arrive
[03:30:03] And I'm like it's sold out and they're like huh. Yeah, and I go. No like you can't come
[03:30:08] There's there's it's done you there's no more place to go in you cannot come and so if you're saying that to people
[03:30:15] You know that's problematic so that means they sell out this is gonna sell out and
[03:30:21] And so keep an eye we haven't locked down the dates yet, but extreme ownership dot com is what you can look and get it
[03:30:30] EF overwatch
[03:30:32] If you're a business and you need experienced
[03:30:36] trained
[03:30:37] leaders inside your organization that understand the principles of
[03:30:42] Extreme ownership and combat leadership
[03:30:44] If you're a business like that go to ef overwatch.com we have our
[03:30:49] Peers
[03:30:51] People we're connected to that are from special operations that are from combat aviation and we are
[03:30:56] Bring them into the civilian sector to help companies and businesses lead and win
[03:31:03] And if you want to keep discussing and talking about all these things with us we are available on
[03:31:10] On the interwebs
[03:31:12] On Twitter on Instagram and on Nash. Yeah, first of all Dave Hall
[03:31:23] He's off the grid. He's not you're not gonna connect with him on social media cuz he's in Hawaii cruising super hard
[03:31:28] God bless him and
[03:31:30] Josh all though Josh all
[03:31:32] Josh all surfboards on Instagram. Josh all surfboards on Facebook check out what he posts beautiful pictures of his boards
[03:31:39] You can see what he's doing in the world traveling surfing shaping echo is echo Charles and I am at
[03:31:48] Jaco willing and thanks once again to
[03:31:51] Dave Hall for his service to the country and for coming on to the podcast
[03:31:57] Sharing his stories and his lessons from war and from life and to Josh also thanks to him for coming on thanks for spreading that
[03:32:09] For spreading that aloha
[03:32:11] That aloha and that stoke wherever wherever he goes and keeping the roots of surfing
[03:32:17] Planet deep
[03:32:18] That's awesome and it's much appreciated and it's great to see
[03:32:21] An American company like yours continue to grow and to the police
[03:32:27] To military to law enforcement firefighters paramedics EMTs correctional officers border patrol all you all all you all you all
[03:32:36] You first responders all you military personnel
[03:32:40] Thanks for protecting our way of life here and abroad. Thanks for
[03:32:45] Protecting us and our ability to do this podcast to do jiu jitsu to go out and surf and live our lives
[03:32:53] Thank you all for your service in sacrifice and
[03:32:57] To everyone else that is listening no matter what it is that you choose to do
[03:33:03] No matter what that thing is
[03:33:06] Whether you're gonna go into the military whether you're gonna start a business whether you're gonna work for someone
[03:33:12] No matter what you're gonna do
[03:33:14] Put everything that you've got into it
[03:33:18] Do it to the best of your ability whether you're assaulting a building on the battlefield or whether you're shaping a board in the shed
[03:33:27] Whatever it is you decide to do
[03:33:32] Poor your soul
[03:33:35] Poor your soul in and
[03:33:38] Get after it
[03:33:40] And until next time this is echo and jocco out