Jocko Podcast 149 with Jim and James Webb: Fields Of Fire. US Marine Corps

2018-10-31T19:57:24Z

Join the conversation on Twitter/Instagram: @jockowillink @jimwebusa @echcharles 0:00:00 - Opening 0:08:12 - Jim Webb Sr. 2:58:26 - Jim Webb Jr. 3:18:59 - How to Stay on The Path. 3:49:31 - Closing Gratitude.

AI summary of episode

my given a copy of the book and I said and this is what General Schultz thinks about it and over time you know it's it's been mandatory reading and the common uns reading list for decades and I can't tell you how many others I've gotten from read particularly staff and seals you know I'm here when I was in Bay Route you know as a as a journal Sarah 83 there was a there was one gunnery sergeant who came and told me I have read your book 11 times it is a text on you know on leadership if you really read it and and at the same time the the important thing also is if you're if you're going to write a novel that lasts you want that universality as you say this doesn't just fit not just isn't my experience and so it really is a very carefully drawn moral drama and you know some of these passes is you're gonna have a hundred many years and I still remember because I've written some of these twenty five times you know the the one you start off with I knew the words you know I knew the words were gonna come out of your mouth so that is you know that was my intention of with with the book and you know what kind of say it's still out there but I didn't one of the one of the toughest moments you know of that period of my life was when I was the brigade administrative officer and so you know my job which wasn't much of a job was to go to one of the things was to go to the main office clear out all the correspondence in there sort it out pass it to the rest of the brigade staff etc and one of them was bringing the casualty reps to the brigade first lieutenant who who kept the board on and without even knowing it while I picked them up I picked up the casualty report of one of my good friends and you you graduate from the academy and it's time to go to time to go to time to go to time to go to the basic school and learn and you know I've talked about a bit about the base school that Marines on here that that went through it a brine stand and he gave us pretty good details on the basic school and but obviously at this time for you you know I'm going to just go to the book for the Marines combat and overseas deployments were unending the greatest burden fell on the privates and lands corporels fresh from boot camp who populated the lower ranks of the rifle pletoons and the lieutenant's just out of the basic school who commanded them the basic school which we called TBS was now starting a new class of 250 lieutenant's every three weeks in pre-veate nom days TBS had taken 30 weeks to complete as Vietnam accelerated the time a new lieutenant spent at TBS was reduced to 26 weeks and then to 21 but true to the traditions of long-held disciplines of the core this reduction took place not by cutting the quality or the content of the curriculum but by rather by lengthening the number of hours spent in class and in the field every work week almost every week TBS companies worked late in the Saturday evening they spent a high percentage of their time in the field and a large percentage of that time was dedicated to night maneuvers and bivouacs our company was given the day off on Christmas working late into the evening of December 24th and assembling on the tarmac for a field activity at 0630 in the morning of December 26th within a month of within a month after finishing TBS the infantry lieutenant's among us would be boarding military flights to travel sir for space California to report immediately for 13 month tours in Vietnam as individual replacements in infantry battalions that were already engaged in sustained heavy combat well of course let me say something about about basic school at that time that's probably the best school I've ever been to day as I wrote the the course got condensed in its time but not in the quality of what they were preparing us to do on the one hand the Marine Corps had dropped the 60 millimeter mortar out of its arsenal after the Korean war they decided that they didn't need it with more artillery closer etc they learned early in the Vietnam war that it was a valuable weapon they put the 60 mic mic package back into basic school so actually added a tactical package into the basic school curriculum they cut out some of the dress and ceremony stuff you know they did take that stuff out not all of it but some of it but how they used stuff outside the battlefield they were very focused on who they were who they were after in addition to like showing that they could they could meet up with us but even on even on that war I mean we adapted and in that area that I operated in you know by the time I had been there for five months I understood the temple of that place I understood where they were they were where they had been I could anticipate them and we did some I think some really great things by the time I got to be a company commander out there in terms of knocking knocking them off balance keep in the morale of our troops up you know showing them that we we really we could go where they were and we could figure out what they were going to do the third was the key and I will say I want to see a couple of things about that first you know the the South Vietnamese the motivation of the South Vietnamese I think has been misunderstood I didn't understand this one I was in Vietnam I understood this a lot better when I got back from Vietnam I started working with the Vietnamese community here after 1975 helping them understand a political system that they were moving into you know they came they came here they were very they were organized into community groups they they knew that you know they we're going to put the future into their kids you know from day one it was like you get a job you know but meeting with them get a job get your kids in school the next generation is going to succeed and then the other thing which I think is so important you know when you say know your people know you know what's the leadership is knowledge know your people know your job know their job and know the next job because you never know when something's gonna happen and you're gonna have that next job but he could still give me the individuals names and I still could I'm not going to but you know that the naval academy at that time you know the pendulum swings in terms of indoctrination and the you know where education fits in and what type of education etc etc but that our this class in the 1968 depending on them in terms of pleb and doctrine nation had swung very far and it was by company really they were like tribal systems were 36 different companies and some of them were relatively loose and some of them were really you know actually we had two two companies in in my class that ran out physically ran out more than half of their plebes and these are people who were highly screen I give some details in the book about the number of class validic torrents varsity athletes eagle scouts etc which actually when people have asked me you know what what's the great benefit you got out of going to the naval academy one thing I said as well I knew that I could achieve among these people who had achieved in different ways and in high school I had I learned you know that I could compete in and that you know why was on the right track at a two to one everything you know we can go places now we couldn't go three years ago you know you are you are winning and you know it's first time anybody ever ever said that to me you know and another comment needs to be made and that is that the South Vietnamese leadership the military leadership my age there were a lot of really fine leaders in there and even even David Hackworth you know who said you know this North Vietnamese Lash gun be flying over Saigon by 1975 also said emphatically to me when I was interviewing him if you'd gotten these people into position they would have they would have I'm not going to say they would have won but they would have survived South Vietnam would have survived like South Korea it was Germany survive for eventual better solution so they they have been I think you know libeled in in history in terms of the competence of a lot of their they're really good leaders and people and soldiers and and reads and that's but if you're out here in the in the enwa basin the one thing that a a good rifle platoon or company commander or batang commander learned was how to adapt how to adapt you couldn't rarely you could rarely plan operations you know sort of like like Mike Tyson said about being in a fight everything is great until the first time you get hit you know on any given patrol or day in the enwa basin particularly near is on a valley you could hit you know some idiot with not idiot maybe some smart smart individual or small group of people with a couple of grenades or you could hit a main force the a con unit which was heavily north Vietnamese or you could hit a large for large force north Vietnamese we fought in in may of nineteen sixteen what we've nine we fought with the the ninety of the regiment in the years on a valley went on for eight days and eight nights we had a north Vietnamese division in base area one twelve right off from where we were the the mountain started up into louse with a hoochman trail that sort of thing we had a very fine of the con regiment which was you know rather rare that an independent regiment the first VC regiment we had to Q80 third main force for spatayan that will operate out of the Arizona valley and in you had a lot of cats and dogs and the other thing was this area had basically been written off by by American war planners in terms of the the politicization you know they're bringing into the south Vietnamese government at that time they categorize villages in talk categorized villages a through e in terms of loyalty to the south Vietnamese government a was totally loyal he was totally the on the other way so um and also it's kind of interesting because I was just talking to a friend of mine who is in government right now who is a very fine football player and we were comparing it was talking about how hard it was to deal with a certain individual because he'd been a wrestler and he didn't understand how you know you get the team around you to solve these problems well you know you learn to step forward and take responsibility for solutions you know if you're an individual support I mean they probably more than any other kind of a sport you know it's like all right this is what I believe and this is what I'm gonna fight for and if we lose with those but this is what we're going to do and in my life combining that with with the Marine Corps you know where you are responsible for the lives of other people and you have to make decisions that affect other people there couldn't have been better training for any other leadership situation I've been in when when going back to where you got selected amongst for this scholarship program you one thing you said is here nobody's gonna work me to have so as I remember the day I got that because I just say well you know one of the of you're an anton myr anton myr's books I have not once an eagle I have not when we when the actually I think I have red wants an eagle it's a great great book you know when when when when when we sent the proofs around on on the fields the you know prensaul didn't quite know what to expect they you know the book had been rejected by 12 publishers nobody wanted to see this side of it and the the other in chief of prensaul John Kirk had been a naval invader in in the Korean war it was a Harvard graduate which I I thought was kind of interesting because when he asked me to come and talk to him he asked me to meet him at the Harvard club you know good riches the Harvard goof you know and I've got you know many many friends who were Arvin and Vietnam who will talk to you about what happened when the watergate Congress took over you know in Nixon resigned and then you know this anti-work Congress came in and one of the first substantive votes they took was to cut off all supplemental appropriations to the South Vietnamese Army there was there was no reason for that well our our forces weren't even on the ground over there and at the same time the North Vietnamese refurbished and they attacked them when they were reposition that reposition I have a really great friend you know who when I was listening to your show that we're talking about the American who had spent nine years as a prisoner of war Le Cal who's here now spent 12 years on the battlefield was a regimental commander he's 28 recipient of their metal varnish and in 13 and a half years locked up five years on a connox box he was down to two artillery rounds per tube per day when it was trying to reposition his forces when this thing hit so it was a very complicated war I'm not trying to like you know re you know re imagine what was happening and I you know as as we discussed earlier it was an avid reader I loved I loved to write I was writing for my job I wrote three magazine articles in that year one of them was very controversial it was about the roles and missions of the Marine Corps how they were on paper and amphibious force and they were doing all these other things and it did it make a difference in my bottom line which you better believe it makes a difference there's not one marine general on any of these jaystaffs anywhere except that you know if if the Navy gives him one and the Marine Corps wasn't even represented when they decided that that was their mission it was the chief of naval operations and I was 25 years old and I got in big trouble you think I got in big trouble and some of these other things I've written you know the chief of staff of the Marine Corps was calling me into talking to me in the continent ordered a counter article to be written about what I had said because they were being accused in a jacus of you know this you know wanting to start some sort of a campaign you know but this class I think we started with 1350 and the first week or two of a pleb year when some people resigned they allowed new increments to come in just for very short period of time so let's just stick with 1350 I think we graduated 841 we had the highest attrition rate of any post war naval academy and post war war two naval academy class and there were some really people who would have been fine officers who were run out for one reason or left and that time period two coincided with the very beginning of the Vietnam War the civil rights movement a lot of different you know things that were tearing the country aside I can remember coming back from boxing practice in summer of 1964 we had to know the one of the rates when you went down on the tables was to know the three top new stories of the day and there on the front page with the Gulf of Tonkin incident you know in the Gulf of the coast of Hanoi the picture of the CO and we were like saying okay this is this is really going to happen we the year that I graduated in 1968 was was the the worst year for American casualties and it also was the year where in April Martin Luther King was killed and in June the night before we graduated Robert Kennedy was assassinated it was just in an end to back it up into the Tet 68 offensive happened before Martin Luther King was killed so that we just boom boom boom the last year and different people reacted in different ways um here's here's you're sorry he's talked a little bit about the overall kind of the overall I guess the overall occurrences that we're going on were beyond what's just sitting right in front of you so here we go but something else was going on at stem from the reality that on any given day three different wars were being fought in the basin the first war involved conventional combat against north Vietnamese army regulars and main force via con soldiers the second war was the daily challenge of an insurgency dominated by a long-term war of a tradition aimed at driving American public opinion and troop morale against our own involvement in Vietnam at the beginning of what became known as the American war communist leader Ho Chi Minh famously predicted for every one of you we kill you will kill ten of us but in the end it is you will who will grow tired the third war focused was a focused and precise form of domestic terrorism at this point in our history America's top leadership had yet to fully grasp the power and impact of a type of terrorism that went well beyond the traditional notions of military insurgency nor did the south Vietnamese government ever find a way to completely counter it it was sorry largely invisible war of terror and subduction was taking place daily among the rural populace designed to discredit the south Vietnamese government and to drive a murderous wedge between the people and the government and you go on to talk about Bernard Fal and his book you know he's a French author who wrote a bunch of books uh spent time there wrote a book called Helen a very small place and he warned the dick van am I saying that right dick van dick van or moral intervention contracts these were groups and what they were doing was the violent act for psychological rather than military reasons which is the source of the success of the Vietnam and the dick van will simply go on murdering village chiefs youth leaders teachers and anti-malarial teams thus isolating the sagon government from the countryside and you describe one of these situations there was no warning from around that unseen bend the air suddenly belched and erupted quick explosions piercing our ears and reverberating like an unseen blast a wind my adrenaline surged I counted three quick bursts of rifle fire and then a womb of three grenades the entire platoon became animated tense picking up the pace to a jog as we strode toward the noise within a few heart beats a young Vietnamese wild-eyed and gasping for breath collided on the trail with the point man of a platoon instinctively the marine tackled the young man and held them on the ground we did not know it yet but it really is you know institutionally important the Marine Corps fire teams for four Marines it was built around the BAR Browning automatic rifle it had it had had been put into place in in World War II because at the beginning of World War II the Marine Marines only operate in the squad like 11 11 Marine Squad and they found that a squad that couldn't control directly control 11 people so they went under the triangular concept with the you know the the former in fire teams but the problem with that was if you took two casualties you don't have a maneuver element and it is built around an an artificial notion because the M16 could be fully automatic you know like I had I kept some in four teens in my platoon as well so what the the young leaders in the in a fifth Marines just sort of over time to start doing was cannibalizing the third rifle squad and so in in our rifle platoon instead of having three rifle squads and in a gun team attached from this notion of weapons platoon we put the riflemen into two squads and then brought the gun team in as the third squad for the triangular concept and that just kind of happened you know It was like the beginning of GT you know or whatever You know you're gonna you're gonna be like an experiment you're gonna grow it academically your own rate by the time I got One two three like the fifth school in in Nebraska I was on non-college prep work where you These get this guy out of here You know I ended up you know like you let us go an hour early and I went to work but they were saying despite what I mentioned earlier about the assassination programs that were not fully understood in our country they were saying the people who were opposed to the war were saying the South Vietnamese are so corrupt they won't go out there you know we have a district chief in Donning he lives in his villa he has a great life he won't go out to the animal base and so our company commander who part of his first story had done is a pacification officer working with them said we're going to get him out here we're going to get him out here we're going to protect him and they found out about that and as as I wrote in the book I mean they killed 17 of their own people in one little room and the the district chief and his aid you know just to send the signal that signal was well understood you know by the people in in these areas and what we were doing was not as well understood even by ourselves one of the you know the most interesting moments for me was when I had a I've sworn the end of my tour I had a marine who was getting court martialed and to me for hitting an NCO you would not in my company anymore yeah because every one of us knows that if our luck had run out or if someone among us had made one in invertean mistake we could have died there no question you can be as one thing about you know I've heard you talk about I eat these before you know I would say 25 to 30 percent of our casualties were IDs most of were gunshot a lot of shrapnel moves but with an ID there's nothing more to more lacing or booby trap as we call it them and the take of your movie in at night the casualties are large and there's nowhere to put your anger you know and and if you're on the outside of that you go well you know that easily could have been made you can be a hundred percent right and still be dead we had one device on a night move every member of my platoon stepped over it on a narrow trail I was walking forth forth for three in the in a column and the last I had a brand new guy I put him on tail and Charlie it was a company who actually didn't batay in him it was a company move and it was some branch on the trail or something called boom and you know there were 19 casualties and a ambush after that you know I think we were talking about this last night attitude development is the key to everything you know and getting your mind right is to in terms of what you're going to do and knowing the assets that are available and you know I've spent a lot of time thinking about this too you know in terms of what what I was going to face I had I had one really terrific mentor who what when I graduated from the Naval Academy I spent like two months as a drill officer at the with the new class coming in before reported to basics school and I was a battalion drill officer there were six of us there were six battalions I got the marine battalion officer who had just gotten out of the hospital from him been wounded and in Conteanne was a company commander Alpha

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Episode transcript

[00:00:00] This is Jocco podcast number 149 with echo Charles and me jocco willing good evening echo good evening
[00:00:13] All my life I've waited for this
[00:00:17] Now I've joined you and your losses are a strength to me
[00:00:23] I ache
[00:00:25] And yet I know that Alec wretched with pain on the dust road that went to Corinth
[00:00:32] I breathe the dust and
[00:00:34] And I know that grandpa
[00:00:37] Breathe the gas that made a hero out of purging
[00:00:42] I flinch when bullets tear the air in angry rents
[00:00:48] And yet I know that father and
[00:00:50] And three farmer boys at pickets charge felt a cutting edge
[00:00:57] That dropped them dead
[00:01:01] How can I be bitter?
[00:01:04] You are my strength you ghosts
[00:01:10] And I have learned those things those esoteric skills and knowledge that mark me as one of you
[00:01:17] That loose-bowled piles of shit
[00:01:23] Too much shit from overeating plop randomly around the outer dikes of a vill
[00:01:28] Mean trouble
[00:01:31] Catching the aroma seeing the groupings watching flies dance lazily
[00:01:36] Rejoicing in their latest fitted morsel that bends the low grass and a muddy glob like a bomb of cow dung
[00:01:42] Trouble
[00:01:44] I
[00:01:47] Can tell from the crack of a rifle shot
[00:01:50] The type of weapon fired and what direction the bullet is traveling
[00:01:55] I can listen to a mortar pop and know its size how far away it is
[00:02:00] I know instinctively when I should prep a tree line with artillery before I move into it
[00:02:07] I know which draws and fields should be crossed online
[00:02:10] Which should be assaulted and which are safe to cross and call them?
[00:02:17] I know where to place my men when we stop and form a perimeter
[00:02:22] I can shoot a rifle and throw a grenade and direct air and artillery onto any target under any circumstances
[00:02:29] I can dress any type of wound. I have dressed all types of wounds water to protruding intestines with my canteen to keep them from cracking under sunbake
[00:02:41] Patched sucking chest with plastic tied off stumps with field expedient turnicates
[00:02:48] I can call them metavac helicopter's talk them could jol them dare them into any zone
[00:02:53] I do these things experience these things repeatedly daily
[00:03:02] Their terrors and miseries are so compelling and yet so regular that I have ascended to a high emotion that is nonetheless
[00:03:11] accrusted numbness
[00:03:14] I am an automaton bent on survival agent and prisoner of my misery
[00:03:19] How terribly exciting
[00:03:26] And how to what purpose will these skills serve me when this madness ends?
[00:03:33] What lies on the other side of all this?
[00:03:38] It frightens me. I haven't thought about it. I haven't prepared for it
[00:03:43] I am so good so ready for these things that were my birthright
[00:03:52] I do not enjoy them. I know they have worked me
[00:03:58] But it will be so hard to deal with a life empty of them
[00:04:05] And there are the daily sufferings
[00:04:08] You ghosts have known them
[00:04:10] But who else?
[00:04:14] I can sleep in the rain wrapped inside my poncho listening to the drops beat on the rubber like small explosions
[00:04:21] Then feel the water pouring to river lads inside my poncho soaking me as I lie in the mud
[00:04:29] I can live in the dirt
[00:04:32] Sit and lie and sleep in the dirt. It is my chair and my bed
[00:04:37] My floor and my walls this clay and
[00:04:43] Like all of you
[00:04:46] I have endured diarrhea as only an animal should endure it squatting a yard off the trail and relieving myself
[00:04:54] Unsurimoniously naturally
[00:04:56] Animally
[00:04:58] Depervations of food
[00:05:01] Festering open source
[00:05:03] Worms heat aching crotch that nags for fulfillment
[00:05:09] Any emptying hole that will relieve it
[00:05:14] Who appreciates my sufferings?
[00:05:19] Who do I suffer for?
[00:05:26] And that
[00:05:27] Right there is a excerpt from a book
[00:05:30] That is called fields of fire and it was written after
[00:05:36] The Vietnam War by a marine who served there
[00:05:41] In this book paints a picture of of combat and in fact it actually does more than that because a picture
[00:05:50] You know picture supposed to paint a thousand words or say a thousand words, but pictures don't always
[00:05:55] Properly convey thoughts and emotions
[00:06:01] You need words to make that happen and this book
[00:06:04] Really captures all of it horror fear discussed love hate in difference
[00:06:12] The chaos of combat the sorrow of loss
[00:06:15] heroism
[00:06:19] And of course in all that human nature
[00:06:21] and
[00:06:24] And
[00:06:26] As I always say about this podcast while yes, it is about war and it's about leadership and it's about atrocities and it's about struggle
[00:06:33] It is most importantly it's about human nature
[00:06:37] And on top of that the incredible power of the human will and this book fields of fire
[00:06:43] gives us a very close examination of human nature in all of its glory
[00:06:53] And of course in all of its horror as well and the book was written by
[00:06:58] a man by the name of James Webb who was a marine
[00:07:03] Officer Vietnam
[00:07:05] recipient of the navy cross former secretary the navy former senator from the great state of Virginia
[00:07:13] He's written a bunch of other books tan i believe
[00:07:17] He's written and produced movies all kinds of stuff on top of that he's has
[00:07:23] Five children from correct one of those children Jim also served in the Marine Corps and it was actually
[00:07:30] Who's time in Ramadi overlapped with my time in Ramadi where he served as a
[00:07:38] As a O311 rifleman
[00:07:40] As a member of the one six Marines and also as a radio man in staple tune
[00:07:47] So
[00:07:49] It's awesome to read these books and know their history
[00:07:54] And it's even more awesome and an absolute honor to have with us here today the author of the book field'sifier
[00:08:04] And also his son so
[00:08:08] Sir
[00:08:09] Thank you for coming Jim
[00:08:12] Thank you for coming thank you thank you. I was kind of wondering because you know
[00:08:18] James and Jim and I decided when I was trying to figure out what to call you guys
[00:08:22] I figured I'd call you young Jim Jim and I just keep calling you sir
[00:08:31] So
[00:08:32] Yeah, I can't thank you guys enough for coming all for coming all the way out here for on the east coast and and to come on this and
[00:08:40] For me to revisit field of fire which is just a
[00:08:43] A book and what we're getting to that a little bit later. It's an iconic book about not just the Vietnam War
[00:08:49] But really about war and and the the wave laid it out and again what we'll get into that a little bit
[00:08:55] But I also wanted to talk to you and and really get some of your backstory as well and you're upbringing
[00:09:01] You know we always try and start with the guests kind of talking about where they came from and
[00:09:06] What their background was and you have a lot of that actually laid out in
[00:09:11] Your memoir
[00:09:13] So I was gonna ask if it's cool to call this a memoir, but there it says it on the cover a memoir
[00:09:17] I heard my country calling and
[00:09:21] I guess what one little section of this that stuck out of me and I think you know obviously we'll let you expand on it
[00:09:28] But I'm going to the book. So again this book is called I heard my country calling and
[00:09:33] Here we go back to the book when it hurts
[00:09:37] Just grit your teeth and take it
[00:09:40] Don't out don't you ever back down never start a fight, but if somebody else does never run away
[00:09:45] If you run from a bully you will never stop running
[00:09:49] But if you fight he won't risk coming back at you again stand up fight back mark him
[00:09:56] Give him something to remember every morning when he looks in the mirror
[00:10:01] Then even if you lose you win
[00:10:05] And by the way if you ever run from a fight I will personally beat your ass
[00:10:09] And
[00:10:12] You go on my father was not exactly a mellow guy
[00:10:16] He did not spare the rod, but he taught me early that there is no substitute for moral courage
[00:10:21] Whatever the cost and that the ultimate duty of every leader is to take care of the people who rely on him when otherwise
[00:10:29] They would be forgotten or abandoned
[00:10:32] Courage in the face of those above you and loyal
[00:10:35] He took to those below you were my fathers in alterable standards
[00:10:41] The only true way to measure the worth of another human being so there you go
[00:10:47] Those are some standards your dad laid out for you. He was a tough guy. He was a tough guy
[00:10:54] You know I
[00:10:55] Listening to you read the
[00:10:57] The excerpt from Fields of Fire I was just thinking about how long it has been and the journey that I have had since I wrote those
[00:11:05] Words and
[00:11:07] Learning I think we were talking about this last night
[00:11:10] Learning how to write by writing a snob or writing an album wasn't active will for a lot of different reasons and
[00:11:19] One of the things when when I think about growing up in our family
[00:11:24] Was that my dad was a leader
[00:11:28] More than anything he was a leader and you know bit different families have different conversations when you're
[00:11:33] Sitting around the dinner table but his was always you know he we talk about different issues
[00:11:39] But it was always how do you lead how do you motivate people?
[00:11:44] one of his
[00:11:46] Slogans was you can make people do something or you can make people want to do something and
[00:11:52] So in a nutshell, you know learning from him you know
[00:11:56] He was a criminal a Terry
[00:11:58] Person he's enlisted in World War II became a bomber pilot B 17 B 29 and then was in Berlin air lift and when I was very young
[00:12:08] Was transitioning into jets for the Korean war and the
[00:12:13] Air pressure in a cockpit blew out the jet blew it blew his ear to him's out he got grounded
[00:12:18] I'll never forget that day when he came home when he he couldn't fly anymore
[00:12:21] We're getting right from the walk into the door and my mom says it took you to as wings away
[00:12:26] Don't ever mention it he walked in and he was still wearing his wings
[00:12:30] So you know once you qualify then you don't take off and so first thing I said everyone was hey dad
[00:12:35] You they let you keep your wings
[00:12:37] He's a go upstairs
[00:12:40] But then he was a pioneer in the muscle program still didn't have a college degree put the first Atlas in for the Air Force again
[00:12:46] one of the one of the great things to observe as a teenager was when they gave him the command of
[00:12:54] An Atlas Thor scout junior a missile squadron the the success rate on the Atlas at this time out of
[00:13:01] Vanneberg we had opened up Vanneberg it was an 85,000 acre wilderness when I first went out there and they agreed
[00:13:07] But the success rate and that squadron was a 11% and he made it 100% 12 out of 12 successful launches and I'd go with them
[00:13:16] Up to the the pads don't you know why not in 16 17 and watch how he dealt with his people you wait
[00:13:23] You just trumped because I always talk about how I bring my ace to bring my son out to the training grounds and let him shoot machine guns and stuff
[00:13:29] But you your dad brought you out let you shoot missiles. Let me watch you just
[00:13:33] You just trumped me as the you know
[00:13:36] You could back then you know I could go sit a sitting on a blockhouse
[00:13:40] Like a thousand yards away from war one of these that was so far but watch and how he treated his people and
[00:13:45] On a you know he'd been deployed a lot when he went back
[00:13:49] Into the milk he got rift at the end of war war two because he didn't have a college degree he that when they brought him back in they he was either deployed or
[00:13:57] Stationed at bases that did not have military housing for three and a half years and we were up in St. Joe, Missouri where I was born
[00:14:03] My father's family had come in from the Appalachian mountains
[00:14:07] And ended up in St. Joe my mother was from East Arkansas
[00:14:10] Very she had a very tough life early life three of her seven siblings had died of childhood disease
[00:14:18] It kind of things you didn't even see anymore like her
[00:14:21] Sister that was an arrow to her died of typhoid fever once the last time we seen America with typhoid fever
[00:14:27] So we were up in St. Joe, Missouri my mother had four kids by the time she was 24 years old
[00:14:34] And my dad was gone and she didn't know hardly anybody at St. Joe, Missouri
[00:14:38] We didn't have these family assistance programs like they do now and it's been one of the great privileges of my life to try to put those into our military
[00:14:47] So my grandmother moved in
[00:14:49] She was living on Arkansas I mean from Arkansas to California and
[00:14:55] Came back up and lived with us for several years and
[00:14:59] There was an iron hand in the house, but you know my dad would come back
[00:15:02] He'd leave Friday night get off work at one point, but Scott or four space Illinois
[00:15:07] Drive 380 miles one way every weekend no interstate
[00:15:11] You know drive all night Friday night show what we never knew what time Saturday morning, but he'd be in there with my mom set it one
[00:15:20] Ray's hell
[00:15:23] Friday afternoon getting the car and drive back
[00:15:26] But his example
[00:15:28] taught me more about
[00:15:30] the axioms of leadership than anything I learned anywhere else and being able to apply it in
[00:15:36] The Marine Corps which you know was one of the great prides of of my life
[00:15:43] Was really an extension of what he'd put on the table day in a day out and you know
[00:15:50] I like Jim got the new
[00:15:52] Sun Jim got to know
[00:15:54] You know his grandfather my dad very well. We spent a lot of time fishing hunting we're out door family
[00:16:01] And we've had the
[00:16:03] Same kind of a few thousand hours of discussions I think I'm gonna
[00:16:08] Yeah, you can very easily say that the passage you read would qualify as the 11th Commandment in our household growing up
[00:16:14] It's passed down to him in the past down to me
[00:16:17] Very very very simply never walk away from a fight
[00:16:21] But never start a fight, but never walk away from one never quit and you'd be joined to tell you treat those around you and it's
[00:16:28] So it's it's it's it's been one of those things I've kept with me my entire life and it's I was lucky to have that kind of
[00:16:36] Formative influence at a very young age and
[00:16:39] I love the Marine Corps myself but everything I'll learn about leadership is from him and
[00:16:43] Being around his bloodthorn growing up and it's absolutely blessing
[00:16:48] Yeah, that's that's awesome. I know and we talked about this a little bit last night because I would have guys that are concerned that hey
[00:16:54] I'm not around and I got you know two kids and I'm doing another deployment and and you know I always would tell guys look guys have been
[00:17:02] I don't know what you call it in you know Viking years or whatever, but I don't know if they called it a deployment back then
[00:17:08] But guys have been going on deployment and leaving their families for thousands and thousands of years
[00:17:14] And and that to me is an example that's it's that you might not be there to directly influence your kid on a day-to-day basis
[00:17:20] But the when when a young man looks up or a kid looks up and sees hey this is what hard work is this
[00:17:27] What commitment is this is this is what sacrifices and they can emulate that you don't have to be there every day to
[00:17:33] Instruct them in every single little thing that they do and I mean clearly both of you are
[00:17:38] Examples of that you can turn out just fine even if dad is around every night
[00:17:43] You know when I was really
[00:17:45] When I was really young and he was deployed a brilliant air lift I used to go to a
[00:17:50] Better overnight with a picture of him on the runway and the flight line that
[00:17:54] Air Force Public Affairs had taken with him and his first sergeant and some visiting general
[00:17:59] I still have a picture over my desk today
[00:18:02] But that was you know that was good night dad
[00:18:05] You know and you look at that and you you gain an understanding of what it means to serve what what your country
[00:18:11] Is all about and you know serving your country and also such a thing the one thing I would say this
[00:18:17] My dad really didn't want me to go in the Marine Corps
[00:18:20] Yeah
[00:18:22] From the job that we were just talking about you know when he had the
[00:18:27] The missile squadron he had gone to night school for 26 years
[00:18:30] He graduated from college my senior in high school and he met it was deep selected for Colonel
[00:18:35] And then they sent me to the Pentagon to do legislative affairs and it was the McNamara era
[00:18:40] And he would just he would just go crazy about
[00:18:45] The Whiz kids who were running the Vietnam War and and weird have his long discussions about you know
[00:18:50] You're you're just gonna be meat
[00:18:52] You know you're gonna be meat. Yeah the Marine Corps is a political football don't do it his his line was
[00:18:58] Go in the Navy stay on the ship eat ice cream
[00:19:04] And you know what I went in the Marine Corps it was like oh man and and then one my brother went in the Marine
[00:19:10] Corps my brother was a hewri pilot in the Marine Corps it was like my boys are Marines
[00:19:18] You know going back to your your childhood a little bit you talk about how you move around a ton
[00:19:26] Growing up I mean the sound like your dad was a little bit of a habitual house mover even when you get somewhere
[00:19:31] He would move you know you're talking about you were in England you live in three-hat three different houses
[00:19:35] And it seemed like everywhere you you went you would move around a lot and one of the things you say about that
[00:19:39] In the book is I'm going back to the book here
[00:19:43] I not only learned how to read a room but by necessity became an acute observer of subtle body language of each new tribal circle
[00:19:50] In each place I learned valuable distinctions that helped me to develop skills and insights that carried over into leadership challenges during
[00:19:56] During my later life in order to lead people you must first motivate them in order to motivate them
[00:20:01] You must understand them in order to understand them you must be able to grasp not simply their words
[00:20:06] But the emotion behind their words the same words and gestures can have vastly different intentions in
[00:20:13] Alabama and southern California and Nebraska and sometimes even within the same town
[00:20:19] I learned to be a receiver of information as well as a careful broadcaster
[00:20:26] So absolutely you know on first of all with with my dad moving yeah
[00:20:30] We I think the longest way we live in a house was like 17 months while I was growing up
[00:20:34] You know, if part of it was that you know the Scotch Irish tradition
[00:20:38] The ulcer scots that settled apple-latch and mountains and then spread further west and you know there
[00:20:44] They'd like to say you know you you haven't you don't stop moving to you've lived in at least two or three houses
[00:20:50] There's something over the mountain that you haven't seen yet and yeah, I eat that literally yeah, we got we got you know
[00:20:57] the
[00:20:57] does post-worn word to military
[00:21:02] was
[00:21:03] You know it would still sell it sort of receding itself in terms of of having large standing
[00:21:09] Military and where are the missions we're going to be with the space program all this up missile program going on so
[00:21:15] Yeah, we buying necessity moved a lot, but then yeah, we'd get in a house Emerald Texas women
[00:21:20] Emerald Texas one year we live in three different houses
[00:21:23] You know, I saw one on the southern down there on sunset on what such a street
[00:21:27] We're gonna move in that house and my brother and I we lived on the back porch
[00:21:30] You know they're with the
[00:21:32] Windows rattling you know, etc, but as we're destiny either become Marines or a start-of-moving company
[00:21:38] You know, really
[00:21:40] So then
[00:21:42] There was an ups I was a downside of that and that is you know academically like in went to I think nine different public schools and five years at one point three different schools in eighth grade
[00:21:52] No
[00:21:53] You know
[00:21:54] Continuum in the academic curriculum
[00:21:57] When I started in the Ith grade it was in Santa Maria, California when they
[00:22:03] Start first opened up vanember
[00:22:06] They tested the whole class they took four of us they put us in different rooms. It was like the beginning of GT you know or whatever
[00:22:13] You know you're gonna you're gonna be like an experiment you're gonna grow it academically your own rate by the time I got
[00:22:20] One two three like the fifth school in in Nebraska I was on non-college prep work where you
[00:22:26] These get this guy out of here
[00:22:28] You know I ended up you know like you let us go an hour early and I went to work
[00:22:33] But I could always take a standardized test and that's really how I was able to get into the the
[00:22:39] Scholarship program that later led me to go to the
[00:22:42] to the Naval Academy but the most important lesson from all of that was I
[00:22:48] Was able to see such a cross section of America
[00:22:52] First in the military, you know the military was the first institution in the country that was racially integrated
[00:22:58] You know we had a totally different environment than if I had grown up in East Arkansas or some world
[00:23:04] But also so many different
[00:23:06] Communities and you walk in and you're the new guy and you read the room and you figure out where the problem is
[00:23:11] But you also as you know from from from the quote that you read
[00:23:16] You learn that a big part of leadership is knowing
[00:23:19] What motivates people and understanding that different things motivate different people not only culturally
[00:23:26] But individually and so to sort of figuring out
[00:23:31] What you know what a person is thinking when they are saying certain things do what body language means?
[00:23:38] etc
[00:23:38] I knew translate that into the the combat environment particularly in in Vietnam during the Vietnam War when what I was there
[00:23:45] And we had an incredible cross section particularly of the the working side of American society
[00:23:54] and and
[00:23:56] By that time I've been a boxer for eight years. I I had I had been around all you know a lot of African American my hero
[00:24:03] And when I was in high school was African American incredible fighter once the Olympics in 1964
[00:24:10] But the Hispanic communities
[00:24:12] California the farming communities the southern you know the southern mentality of which my culture deprived
[00:24:19] And so when you look at a problem you look at a potential problem you know I got cat ones
[00:24:25] I got cat fours in terms of you know the testing scores of people out there
[00:24:29] You learn how to how to listen
[00:24:32] And then how to make decisions and how to preclude a lot of problems that we're going on
[00:24:38] We had racial problems and and the military writ large during that period we are society had these problems
[00:24:44] I never had a racial problem and any unit I committed
[00:24:49] Did you now one of the things that while you were
[00:24:52] Jumping from school to school that was problematic although you were learning this stuff about
[00:24:57] Human nature and the way people are you know one part of the book here you you say from from the time I was 10
[00:25:03] My dad had challenged me to read a book a week
[00:25:05] And if and if that did not remedy my restlessness to try and read two books a week read read read here
[00:25:11] It's me and I had including poetry fiction history and anything I get my hands on that was about sports or the military
[00:25:18] You read that much as a young kid
[00:25:21] Constantly and I thought really saved me in terms of the the you know the differing standards and whatever in the schools that I was going to and
[00:25:30] the other thing
[00:25:32] I did and I would do from the time I was very young was that poetry contest, you know he was a big big reader too
[00:25:39] and
[00:25:40] So you know all the way through his his lifetime we would do that you wouldn't
[00:25:46] You know up until
[00:25:48] You know very soon before he passed away we would go every summer
[00:25:51] We'd get the the males and the family of the different generations get a fishing camp in Minnesota for two weeks and hang out
[00:25:59] Bill fire go for a catch fish clean fish talk talk talking my dad and I would always we do
[00:26:07] Kippling or we do the British and the Irish poets and you know one of us had given a line and another would give another line to see who really
[00:26:15] Remembered you know and I always knew when I was I in high school when he when he was wanting to go
[00:26:22] Go up to Minnesota even at that point because he would go and he start talking to my mother
[00:26:26] This one is one poem called do you fear the wind do you fear the force of the wind the slash of the rain go face it and fight it
[00:26:34] Be savage again. I'm gonna go cold and hungry like a wolf. I'm okay. I think we're going to Minnesota
[00:26:41] That's awesome. Yeah, and and you also say in a book
[00:26:46] I knew and as I had always known that I was born to be a soldier
[00:26:50] Growing up, you know, we were
[00:26:57] Still our an outdoor family hunt fish shoot you know I taught Jim from the time you know six Jim star two
[00:27:04] When six years old I got my first rifle one I was eight years old it was a part of a long going tradition from the pioneer
[00:27:11] Papay near days, you know, here's your here's your rifle
[00:27:14] I loved being an outdoors you know I loved all of the mechanics of that part of the world and of course
[00:27:24] At that time plus world war two you turn on a TV in a weekend and you've got victory at sea and you know air power and all these shows and and
[00:27:35] I loved military history I watched this stuff and I said I
[00:27:38] I'm gonna be a soldier and I didn't know at that time really it was a it was a close call and in an ice school
[00:27:46] What I would go in the army or what I'd be in my reign I wanted to do that and
[00:27:51] When I got to I didn't know what college was we were doing it was not part of our family
[00:27:57] Heritage at that time you know directly going to college and figuring out what school you should go to and those sorts of things
[00:28:02] So I went around it was 14 years old and my dad and I said debt I want to I want to be a soldier
[00:28:07] She said go to college. That's what you're doing college. He says you're gonna be an engineer
[00:28:11] I said what are engineers do we say they invent things I said I don't want to invent anything
[00:28:16] I want to see stuff that's right
[00:28:19] I want to go in the woods I want to know what I want to leave people you know and
[00:28:23] so
[00:28:25] I
[00:28:26] Found out that the the Navy had this ROT scholarship this first scholarship full scholarship program because I could not have gotten the
[00:28:34] Naval Academy out of out of high school my my grades weren't that great you know the other things I had in place I think
[00:28:40] But the army did not have an ROT C scholarship at that time they had a program where after two years
[00:28:46] You could get a full scholarship but you only had a partial at the beginning so I applied to the
[00:28:53] Navy scholarship program at that time
[00:28:55] You took a standardized test and anybody who passed a standardized test got into the interview process and you could go make your case
[00:29:04] So I went with the school it was heavily military kids in the in the school we had 12
[00:29:11] People from our school who passed the test and got into the the interviews are valid Victorian
[00:29:16] Salu tutorial and all state basketball player all district football player and me as like hey pump your gas
[00:29:22] You know
[00:29:24] Come see me fight and I really looked out because the two interviewers the first one was a Mustang commander
[00:29:34] Who had seen me fight and just totally by coincidence the name was commander ambassador
[00:29:39] He says you know where have I seen you before?
[00:29:42] Wouldn't me and
[00:29:44] You talked about what do you want to do? I I want to do this. This is what I want to do
[00:29:49] He says what are you gonna do if you don't get it? I said I'm gonna be here next year. You know if you you know if I don't get it this year
[00:29:54] I'll be here next year and
[00:29:56] We you know we talked about working through high school because I worked all through high school and
[00:30:02] He would come after this he'd come over as packing groceries at the base commester
[00:30:07] He'd come by and say hello and the
[00:30:09] The second interviewer was a naval academy graduate who had graduated and the bottom two thirds of his class and
[00:30:15] From from South Dakota and he he was saying
[00:30:20] We don't we got enough brains in this world we need leaders and he threw
[00:30:25] Examples out you know like things you're not supposed to be able to solve you probably know this from different interviews
[00:30:31] You went through and in your time in the Navy so he goes
[00:30:34] We got all this mud in the Mississippi river. What are we gonna do about the mud in the Mississippi river and I said
[00:30:39] Commander I'm not thinking about this
[00:30:41] I
[00:30:43] Said look
[00:30:44] You know here's what you do you shut that river down for eight hours a day and you run a big
[00:30:50] Like a screen through there like a filter big filter on on a rotator and
[00:30:56] On each end you put like a car wash
[00:31:00] You know with the sprays and so you run you run the filters through and you spray the the mud out
[00:31:05] And you put it in a covert and you get a truck under there
[00:31:07] I've gotten that's top soil center back up and you know sell it back to the farmers
[00:31:12] You said I know okay
[00:31:15] And so I got the scholarship and
[00:31:18] When you you mentioned fighting and you mentioned boxing and you know that you mentioned it a couple times and
[00:31:25] Well obviously I like fighting and
[00:31:28] One of the things I mean I always I'm I'm more of a jjjjjjjjjj
[00:31:32] But the things that jjjjjjjj teaches you about life and about everything really and I know a lot of those similar lessons come from boxing
[00:31:39] You had a nice little
[00:31:41] nice little thing about boxing and here and I just wanted to throw it out there before we jump too much further because you know boxing stays
[00:31:48] with you through your through your naval Academy career and whatnot
[00:31:52] But here we go back to the book boxing and the roughhewn world in which the sport resided taught me valuable lessons about
[00:31:59] human struggle and the thin line between success and failure. In the ring, you quickly
[00:32:05] learned that life was not always fair and that it's not always off for you a face saving
[00:32:11] time out when things were going badly. Once the bell rang, you're out there by yourself
[00:32:16] exposed for all the world to see until it rang again. No excuses, no sitting out for a
[00:32:22] couple of plays just because somebody hit you so hard you couldn't see straight and your toes
[00:32:26] felt numb. When my kids compete in jujitsu a lot when they were little and I would see these kids
[00:32:37] would go to these tournaments and jujitsu tournaments are very popular especially out here in California
[00:32:41] at that time and they're popular everywhere now but I would notice that when a kid loses
[00:32:46] because my kid's played all kinds of sports whenever soccer and basketball and this and that
[00:32:50] the kid if the team loses the soccer game the kids you know they walk off the field
[00:32:54] when a kid loses a jujitsu match and this is just not just my kids but like 90% of kids when they
[00:33:00] lose that jujitsu match when there's six years old when there's seven years old they're gonna
[00:33:04] start crying and you know it made sense to me instantly there's two parts of it that make sense to me.
[00:33:10] Number one, they're by themselves there's no one to blame it's not an even lots of fault
[00:33:15] them team it's just them and number two when you get beat in a combat sport it's there's
[00:33:23] there's a primal thing that you just realize you got beat by another human being in this game
[00:33:31] and it's not a game and so it's like you said it's like there's no there's no way out of it
[00:33:37] and for me those lessons that people take away from combat sports are extremely important and
[00:33:42] it's the things that you just talked about right here. Yeah absolutely right and on a number of
[00:33:47] different levels you know and one thing about well first of all I want to think about jujitsu
[00:33:53] is you know when I was a kid I used to read a lot and read a lot about Asian history and you
[00:33:58] learn the the Japanese philosophy behind it which is to take your opponent's strength and use it
[00:34:05] against him you know it was just a kind of a different thing than boxing but I've always thought
[00:34:10] about that you know and in other areas of of of of my life I've thought about that and in terms of
[00:34:17] boxing you know you never know who the judges are you know and you know you you're you're
[00:34:25] absolutely right I mean nothing nothing is worse than losing when it's just you out there if it
[00:34:32] went to the team out there you know you've got you got people you can pat on the back and whatever but
[00:34:37] it's just you or is one of the great fighters in Omaha and on his fight and used to say it's just
[00:34:44] you and other guy and all that smoke but so you you learn to deal with and you know when I say
[00:34:54] you know you may you may perceive unfairness you know you you're all right you know I think I
[00:34:59] won that fight but you can't talk about it for the rest of your life you just say all right you
[00:35:03] got to you got to swallow it and you got to say that was that and the other thing is you have to prepare
[00:35:10] you know when you when you say I'm gonna you know like 15 16 years I could I could be fighting
[00:35:16] front of 3000 people you know Omaha's and then I'm a lot going on in the winter and you know
[00:35:21] was cold and then coming to the Colosseum and watch and there were good fighters you know really
[00:35:25] oh my god I'm a good fighter set back now including a professional stable as well but yeah I'm
[00:35:33] going to be in front of 3000 people and I don't want to look like an ass you know and so you put it
[00:35:38] on yourself you put preparation on yourself which actually is a great learning tool for being a writer
[00:35:46] you know you you may think you're working hard or you may think you're just passing the time but
[00:35:51] when the book comes out you're gonna be exposed to all these reviews and that sort of stuff you know
[00:35:56] so um and also it's kind of interesting because I was just talking to a friend of mine who is in
[00:36:04] government right now who is a very fine football player and we were comparing it was talking about
[00:36:09] how hard it was to deal with a certain individual because he'd been a wrestler and he didn't understand how
[00:36:14] you know you get the team around you to solve these problems well you know you learn to step forward
[00:36:20] and take responsibility for solutions you know if you're an individual support I mean they
[00:36:25] probably more than any other kind of a sport you know it's like all right this is what I believe
[00:36:31] and this is what I'm gonna fight for and if we lose with those but this is what we're going to do and
[00:36:35] in my life combining that with with the Marine Corps you know where you are responsible for the
[00:36:44] lives of other people and you have to make decisions that affect other people there couldn't have
[00:36:51] been better training for any other leadership situation I've been in when when going back to where
[00:36:58] you got selected amongst for this scholarship program you one thing you said is here nobody's
[00:37:05] gonna work me to have so as I remember the day I got that because I just say okay I'm gonna
[00:37:11] wrap myself a little tighter here you know somebody up there likes me I remember that what I you
[00:37:16] know when the you got the the letter from the navy in the mailbox if it was a thin little letter
[00:37:24] you know as a no you know and I got the packet and her was cold I got that packet and I went
[00:37:30] I did this and I am gonna bust my tail you know and then you came all right back then it was like
[00:37:39] there were 51 schools that had these programs and you you listed the top six in order and then
[00:37:45] yes no yes no will I go to these others and I'm sitting in Omaha Nebraska freezing how go anywhere
[00:37:52] and I put down the six warmest schools I did not know the University of California from
[00:37:58] the man in the moon but I said University of California sounds warm and I and I put it on the top
[00:38:04] and I got into University of California I mean they didn't have there in Nebraska quote of
[00:38:08] that here or something I don't know and had a great time there did very well in the military program
[00:38:14] and my my Marine Corps the Marine Corps officer in the program said you you really should go
[00:38:20] to the academy you know and so did my dad my dad so so how much fun I was having done there
[00:38:25] and I did like this boy up you know and so so you applied then for the naval academy while you're
[00:38:34] at USC does and it was that were you surprised to get in there well um I think first of all I had
[00:38:43] I had ranked first in the leadership programs at Southern Cal and I got strong recommendations
[00:38:51] major hunter-coffler was the the Marine and my Lieutenant Covern was the the naval instructor
[00:38:58] and they both wrote strong letters for me and I had to get letters of recommendation from high school and
[00:39:05] you know when I was a high school I did really well in the leadership programs even though I've
[00:39:10] got put in dummy English my senior year you know and you know we were like what did you do last
[00:39:16] summer while they were studying the great artists but the woman who was was my teacher she saw
[00:39:22] how much I love to write and and read and the sort of thing I'd say and so she wrote me a wonderful
[00:39:29] letter and then you know I was on the presidential appointment side which was the active duty military
[00:39:35] uh and I think they took I can't remember now where they took 50 or 75 but they took a certain
[00:39:43] number from the from the country and I got in so so you know the naval academy is a is a
[00:39:50] is a story unto itself you have one section in I obviously can go to the naval academy of course
[00:39:55] I worked with a ton of people over the years that that did but I thought that this little story
[00:40:03] well I just thought it might capture some stuff about the naval academy and I'm going to read
[00:40:09] this going again this is still from the book I heard my country calling after did I reported to the
[00:40:15] room across the hall where the four who had joined evening come around towards its end
[00:40:21] turns beating me with a cricket bat touch your toes I I sir I would lean over and touch my toes
[00:40:29] they would hit me swinging the bat as if taking batting practice for slow pitch softball game
[00:40:36] I would then come to attention and resume my brace which is standing at the position of attention
[00:40:41] beat army sir did that hurt web no sir touch your toes I I sir the bat would connect again
[00:40:48] beat army sir did it hurt no sir okay touch your toes I I sir the blow would come I would
[00:40:57] straighten up again beat army sir did it hurt no sir after they had each hit a couple of slow pitch
[00:41:04] home runs it had apparently stopped being fun and their exuberance diminished one of them finally told
[00:41:10] me that if I would simply admit that it hurt they would stop beating me but for all I knew even this
[00:41:16] guarantee could have been double think if I told them it hurt would I really be allowed to leave
[00:41:20] or would it just bring yet another lecture and another round or worse yet did they really want to
[00:41:24] send me back across the hallway I had already dealt with doctor no pain before dinner I did not
[00:41:30] want to survive the cricket bat only to go back to the toothpick which was another torture they
[00:41:34] were putting through the pain actually left my body or maybe it was merely my brains reaction
[00:41:39] as I would later find out with Marines who were wounded so severely that their nervous
[00:41:43] systems became overloaded and shut down so that they could not feel any pain I had I had detached
[00:41:49] myself from the moment it was as if I was watching myself from another room did it hurt web
[00:41:54] no sir just tell us that it hurt idiot did it hurt I could hear worrying his voice somehow
[00:42:02] the very abuse that they were now weary of perpetrating head inspired me by refusing to lose
[00:42:08] I felt that I was somehow winning no sir touch your toes another blow beat army sir
[00:42:15] behind me I heard them discussing that the bat had split lengthwise on my ass
[00:42:20] alright get out of here web I sir so yeah what year was this 1964 yeah
[00:42:31] naval academy was a different place needless to say then it is now
[00:42:40] young when Bob Timber was writing his book nightingale song we discussed that that it's a
[00:42:45] and one of the comments he made was he meeting me was not particularly bitter about it but he could
[00:42:55] still give me the individuals names and I still could I'm not going to but you know that
[00:43:03] the naval academy at that time you know the pendulum swings in terms of indoctrination
[00:43:08] and the you know where education fits in and what type of education etc etc
[00:43:13] but that our this class in the 1968
[00:43:20] depending on them in terms of pleb and doctrine nation had swung very far and it was by company really
[00:43:25] they were like tribal systems were 36 different companies and some of them were relatively loose
[00:43:30] and some of them were really you know actually we had two two companies in in my class that ran out
[00:43:37] physically ran out more than half of their plebes and these are people who were highly screen I
[00:43:42] give some details in the book about the number of class validic torrents varsity athletes
[00:43:47] eagle scouts etc which actually when people have asked me you know what what's the great benefit
[00:43:52] you got out of going to the naval academy one thing I said as well I knew that I could achieve
[00:43:57] among these people who had achieved in different ways and in high school I had I learned you know
[00:44:02] that I could compete in and that you know why was on the right track at a two to one everything
[00:44:07] but this class I think we started with 1350 and the first week or two of a pleb year when some
[00:44:18] people resigned they allowed new increments to come in just for very short period of time so let's just
[00:44:24] stick with 1350 I think we graduated 841 we had the highest attrition rate of any post war
[00:44:30] naval academy and post war war two naval academy class and there were some really people who
[00:44:38] would have been fine officers who were run out for one reason or left and that time period two
[00:44:47] coincided with the very beginning of the Vietnam War the civil rights movement a lot of different
[00:44:53] you know things that were tearing the country aside I can remember coming back from boxing
[00:44:56] practice in summer of 1964 we had to know the one of the rates when you went down on the tables was to
[00:45:03] know the three top new stories of the day and there on the front page with the Gulf of Tonkin incident
[00:45:08] you know in the Gulf of the coast of Hanoi the picture of the CO and we were like saying okay
[00:45:17] this is this is really going to happen we the year that I graduated in 1968 was was the the
[00:45:23] worst year for American casualties and it also was the year where in April Martin Luther King was
[00:45:33] killed and in June the night before we graduated Robert Kennedy was assassinated it was just in
[00:45:40] an end to back it up into the Tet 68 offensive happened before Martin Luther King was killed so
[00:45:46] that we just boom boom boom the last year and different people reacted in different ways but I
[00:45:53] think the majority of the people that I was with there during that period it gave us a real
[00:45:58] seriousness of purpose we knew we were going it wasn't going to go away particularly for the
[00:46:03] Marine Corps we all knew that we were going and so by the time I graduated there was no doubt in my
[00:46:15] mind where where I was going to go was one of the reasons why on first class crews you know at
[00:46:21] the Naval Academy it used to be after your first year you crueced with the enlisted folks you know
[00:46:27] we I lived with the Snipes on a CVS after my first app was a great learning experience too
[00:46:34] by the way to see how hard those guys worked on here I hardly ever saw the light of day
[00:46:39] they were a trip to in a living spaces I remember when they you know that we had like six or seven
[00:46:47] midship and in this big living space and you know they're given us the dirtiest job they could
[00:46:54] give us you know get down into villages and scrub whether we've saved this for you etc and I
[00:46:59] I'd say whatever they want me to do man I'll do and so I remember the day they accepted me we
[00:47:04] had this first class petty officer who was kind of like the the guy there and they had one wall lockers
[00:47:10] four by four wall locker where they kept all of their different types of books and other supplies
[00:47:20] and they had a okay web come on over here and they gave me the combination to that locker
[00:47:27] and then they broke out a bottle of booze and they sent a boot up to the to the the mess hall and
[00:47:33] and scored a can of apple juice and came back and we said okay you know you're all right well you know
[00:47:40] and after my third year because I knew us going to Vietnam I said I didn't like like maybe
[00:47:44] to see the med so I signed up for a med cruise got on the ceratoga you assess ceratoga and I think
[00:47:52] I as I wrote about in this book we graduated the the morning after the airbors really war
[00:48:00] of 1967 began and so we we we went we flew to rotis pain then out to suede bay creed where the ceratoga
[00:48:08] came in to pick us up and they had just met a fact the USS Liberty the hangar deck was littered
[00:48:16] with casualties some of the USS Liberty and when we you know we took the small boats out and
[00:48:22] start bringing our gear in and got to the hangar deck and there were marine guards around and
[00:48:27] they said do not talk any of these people and you know we went up to our sort of 48 of us that
[00:48:32] were on the ceratoga we went up to our living spaces and that was an incredible cruise because
[00:48:38] the Soviet navy had just broken down into the med and we were playing games with them the whole time
[00:48:44] they crossed the deck the Liberty casualties into the America which took them into Athens but it was
[00:48:51] constant air ops on that carrier while we were there incredible learning experience
[00:48:56] yeah that's when if you have it seeing air ops on the aircraft carrier the first time that I saw it
[00:49:02] I was it's it's it's it's it's insane it's what it is it's insane and that's just normal life on a carrier and
[00:49:10] you know the difference in the same thing talking about my dad and the missile squad the difference
[00:49:16] back then and now was I had a little eight millimeter movie camera and you know after
[00:49:21] even you know I could go sit on the flight deck and take pictures of flight ops you know now
[00:49:26] the you know for for safety reasons and whatever other reasons you can't do that but I've got
[00:49:31] some great shots of some of the only RA five taken off those things and we had spads on there
[00:49:38] and that whole cruise we had an A4 they said with a new gun at the front right catapult because of
[00:49:44] the situation it was going on the middle east so yeah that's it this is uh I thought pretty pertinent here
[00:49:51] is you're you're at the academy and this is what you're talking about right now but going back to the
[00:49:56] book as the Vietnam War gathered intensity the leadership of the brigade began posting pictures and
[00:50:01] biographies of alumni who had been killed or missing an action on a large board in the middle of
[00:50:07] the rotunda just inside the main entrance to bank roft hall the pictures and short biographies were
[00:50:14] taken from the lucky bag the class yearbook from the year that each alumna's graduated
[00:50:21] the board on which the notices were placed was large perhaps eight feet high and four or five feet wide
[00:50:28] at its top was a boldly lettered inscription to those who went before of us before us
[00:50:34] as the class of 1968 near graduation the to those who went before us board had become two boards
[00:50:45] and then three high percentage of the alumni listed were either marines or naval aviators
[00:50:53] many of their names and faces were familiar to all of us more than a few included friends
[00:50:58] and some of these were especially close so that's a that's a reality for everyone there especially
[00:51:08] because in 1964 that wasn't happening and then you go to 1968 and you're filling up this board
[00:51:14] do you all buy it every day and look at the you know you look to see what the new faces are
[00:51:20] and the classes of 66 and 67 in the Marine Corps were hit very hard to test 68 yeah and I think
[00:51:30] I wrote about this but I didn't one of the one of the toughest moments you know of that period of
[00:51:36] my life was when I was the brigade administrative officer and so you know my job which wasn't much
[00:51:42] of a job was to go to one of the things was to go to the main office clear out all the correspondence
[00:51:48] in there sort it out pass it to the rest of the brigade staff etc and one of them was bringing
[00:51:53] the casualty reps to the brigade first lieutenant who who kept the board on and without even
[00:52:01] knowing it while I picked them up I picked up the casualty report of one of my good friends
[00:52:05] and you you graduate from the academy and it's time to go to time to go to time to go to
[00:52:23] time to go to the basic school and learn and you know I've talked about a bit about the
[00:52:29] base school that Marines on here that that went through it a brine stand and he gave us pretty good
[00:52:33] details on the basic school and but obviously at this time for you you know I'm going to
[00:52:42] just go to the book for the Marines combat and overseas deployments were unending the greatest
[00:52:46] burden fell on the privates and lands corporels fresh from boot camp who populated the lower ranks
[00:52:51] of the rifle pletoons and the lieutenant's just out of the basic school who commanded them
[00:52:55] the basic school which we called TBS was now starting a new class of 250 lieutenant's every three weeks
[00:53:01] in pre-veate nom days TBS had taken 30 weeks to complete as Vietnam accelerated the time
[00:53:09] a new lieutenant spent at TBS was reduced to 26 weeks and then to 21 but true to the traditions of
[00:53:17] long-held disciplines of the core this reduction took place not by cutting the quality or the
[00:53:22] content of the curriculum but by rather by lengthening the number of hours spent in class
[00:53:27] and in the field every work week almost every week TBS companies worked late in the Saturday
[00:53:33] evening they spent a high percentage of their time in the field and a large percentage of that
[00:53:37] time was dedicated to night maneuvers and bivouacs our company was given the day off on Christmas
[00:53:43] working late into the evening of December 24th and assembling on the tarmac for a field activity
[00:53:49] at 0630 in the morning of December 26th within a month of within a month after finishing TBS
[00:53:57] the infantry lieutenant's among us would be boarding military flights to travel
[00:54:01] sir for space California to report immediately for 13 month tours in Vietnam as individual
[00:54:06] replacements in infantry battalions that were already engaged in sustained heavy combat
[00:54:14] well of course let me say something about about basic school at that time
[00:54:26] that's probably the best school I've ever been to day as I wrote the the course got condensed in
[00:54:34] its time but not in the quality of what they were preparing us to do on the one hand
[00:54:41] the Marine Corps had dropped the 60 millimeter mortar out of its arsenal after the Korean war
[00:54:48] they decided that they didn't need it with more artillery closer etc they learned early in the
[00:54:53] Vietnam war that it was a valuable weapon they put the 60 mic mic package back into basic school
[00:54:59] so actually added a tactical package into the basic school curriculum they cut out
[00:55:06] some of the dress and ceremony stuff you know they did take that stuff out not all of it
[00:55:14] but some of it but we worked six days a week and we worked yeah we worked on the
[00:55:22] 24th and the 26th of December we worked on the 31st and the 2nd of July I mean of January
[00:55:28] and you know it was I think the intensity actually helped prepare us some of the great friends
[00:55:37] of my life were people that I met in basic school we worked constantly together and by
[00:55:44] doing this every day you know intensely every day you got a better feel for what you actually
[00:55:51] were going to be required to do the interesting thing about basic school one of the reasons I say
[00:55:55] it was the best school I've ever been to it was it was like educational it was practical and it was
[00:56:04] looking toward the future friends any weapon system we learned every weapon in the infantry
[00:56:09] battalion in basic school they would teach it to you in class then you would walk out a symbol
[00:56:15] disassembled familiarize it and then you would go shoot every single weapon my first day my first
[00:56:24] night as a rifle platoon commander I took the platoon that I just picked up into a night move
[00:56:32] night ambush and hit an orthopedic museum with a 51-common machine gun used every supporting arm
[00:56:38] in the Marine Corps except for closer very first patrol did all the on calls etc and you know that
[00:56:46] was basic school so they they go out how did they run problems with you in the field during the
[00:56:54] basic school would they take you out of patrol they have up for players that would attack you
[00:57:01] planes we ran close air there weren't any planes attacking us and it's a big nom so
[00:57:08] I don't know I said I said role players so when you would when you're doing a patrol in the basics
[00:57:15] oh I see how did you simulate and how well did they simulate it some of it was was walk through
[00:57:23] you know you would start with the walkthroughs first of all we had we had really
[00:57:28] talented combat experienced instructors and all of our were platoons were a company is broken
[00:57:39] on a fight plattance alphabetically you know you know how that works when you're sort of
[00:57:45] at the end of the alphabet you know we got the worst gear or the last in line for everything and
[00:57:52] I could remember one night where we were getting dismissed we're in a company formation and
[00:57:59] one of the was a former listed Marine in in our platoon we were Roberts through
[00:58:05] Zell something you know and he's he just started you know this fucking zoo
[00:58:12] and from that point for a lot of times we'd march we would go zoo zoo you know
[00:58:17] but we had you know our our staple-tune commander had been seriously wounded as a rifle
[00:58:25] platoon commander in fifth Marines you know all of all of our put step-tune commanders had had been
[00:58:33] in combat there were a lot of talks you know those sorts of things but then on the
[00:58:40] tactics side you'd go out you learn it you learn in the class you'd go out walk through it
[00:58:45] and then you have a gressor you know not all of these were uh STT called STT aggressors which were
[00:58:52] in listed Marines just back from Vietnam who just loved to mess with the with the the
[00:58:57] basically school who tenants the big problem and the greatest surprise I have to say
[00:59:03] and moving into combat the big problem was if if you're
[00:59:07] uh say for this exercise if you're the platoon commander on this platoon in the attack exercise
[00:59:16] you got 49 of the lieutenant sitting there saying no if I go do that way no but you know look
[00:59:20] come on man no that's no which you don't need to be online we need to be in a wedge you know or
[00:59:24] you know you need to know whatever whatever whatever whatever you know and I'll never forget the feeling
[00:59:29] of actually
[00:59:31] commanding a rifle platoon and combat and being on the move and I just said hold it up and everything
[00:59:37] just stopped you know that we're just right now I got boom I mean one of them is everybody stopped you
[00:59:42] know and I went wow this is pretty good yeah but you know there were there were things that
[00:59:52] could have been taught better the one thing is one of the things that I a very proud of in terms of
[00:59:59] the way that we did operate in Vietnam we had had a lot of leeway to innovate and that's that's
[01:00:04] kind of been lost I think in the in the history of it and there were I mean it's in letters I wrote
[01:00:12] back to officers that I knew talking about you don't really you didn't you have a patrolling package
[01:00:17] over here you got a platoon and the attack package over here but really what we do all the time
[01:00:22] it's we patrol then we assemble then we attack you know or or if we're going to go into a built-up
[01:00:28] area as from the the the section you read the excerpt you read from from fields of fire you know
[01:00:36] I know when to go online I know when to put my troops on high know where to put my guns
[01:00:41] that didn't come from from basically school the separate the separate entities did we connected it
[01:00:46] in in the in the reality of of what we were doing and I'll tell you there's a long line we're getting a
[01:00:51] little head of things but there there's a long line of things that the young leaders in fifth
[01:01:01] Marines had done before I got there and and also in what I was able personally to do is a rifle
[01:01:07] platoon and and and particularly as a as a company commander one of the things we saw and I wrote
[01:01:12] an article about this concept when I got back from Vietnam was that the Marine Corps fire team
[01:01:16] this is simple and small but it really is you know institutionally important the Marine Corps
[01:01:24] fire teams for four Marines it was built around the BAR Browning automatic rifle it had it had
[01:01:32] had been put into place in in World War II because at the beginning of World War II the Marine
[01:01:38] Marines only operate in the squad like 11 11 Marine Squad and they found that a squad that couldn't
[01:01:44] control directly control 11 people so they went under the triangular concept with the you know the
[01:01:50] the former in fire teams but the problem with that was if you took two casualties you don't have
[01:01:58] a maneuver element and it is built around an an artificial notion because the M16 could be fully
[01:02:07] automatic you know like I had I kept some in four teens in my platoon as well so what the the
[01:02:15] young leaders in the in a fifth Marines just sort of over time to start doing was cannibalizing
[01:02:21] the third rifle squad and so in in our rifle platoon instead of having three rifle squads and in
[01:02:27] a gun team attached from this notion of weapons platoon we put the riflemen into two squads
[01:02:38] and then brought the gun team in as the third squad for the triangular concept and that just kind of
[01:02:43] happened you know and no one told us to do it we just said you you know you can't with the casualties
[01:02:50] casually flow that we were taking you just couldn't do it any any other way and be effective
[01:02:55] with the fire teams as maneuver elements we moved at night constantly fifth Marines we moved
[01:03:01] at night we were known for moving at night we walked when we moved for the helicopter assets
[01:03:07] in in Vietnam for the Marine Corps were scarce the the H 46 was was built to standards from
[01:03:15] amphibious carriers amphibious assault ships so they were built to deck space and you know for amphibious
[01:03:25] assaults but then when you get in as continuous ground operation they just wanted enough of them and
[01:03:30] it were very vulnerable to ground fire so in in areas where the army would have been you know
[01:03:36] picking up with a you know a hewie you know getting breakfast and getting on the hewies and I'm not
[01:03:43] running them down this was a great concept the air mobile concept and and moving in on on areas we walk
[01:03:50] we have we had for a lot of time we had two H 46's for our entire sector during the day you
[01:03:58] don't be supplier and that is what ever so we had a lot of walking it taught you how to fight at night
[01:04:05] but also when something happened the casualties were high because you're you know asshole to belly
[01:04:11] button when you're walking along you know you hit it you know it was not not an uncommon practice
[01:04:19] they get a you know booby traffic I AD go off and you get an ambush on at night you know your people
[01:04:24] are packed in at et cetera but and 60 mic mic mortar I decided there were people who taught us
[01:04:34] this company tactics and basically the 60 millimeter mortar is the company commander's personal weapon
[01:04:40] so I decided when I was a company commander I would get sent and I liked this I would get sent
[01:04:46] you know way away and at the edge of our battians sector kind of operating independently but I
[01:04:51] I'd fire sometimes 600 rounds a day and I'd send a rifle platoon into secure an area when we're on the
[01:05:01] move you know it's a payment combat patrol to get a new spot send a rifle to secure the air
[01:05:06] take a resupply having drop a pallet I was the first time I was in 600 rounds no no that was the
[01:05:13] tradition beforehand yeah you can you can home maybe 40 rounds you know but I'd have and drop a pallet in
[01:05:19] I'd have been billed two sandbag parapet areas for the 60 week cap two the teo was three we kept
[01:05:28] two and I'd use them for prep fires I'd use them for H&I's you know and my guys got really really good
[01:05:39] yeah the the mortar teams I've been out and filled with the with the Marine Corps when they
[01:05:44] you watch those guys set up them fire mortars you know just in training and it's ridiculous how
[01:05:48] good they are it's awesome thing to watch it's a beautiful thing to watch yeah the reason I kind of
[01:05:52] dug in a little bit about the training because when I came back from my my luck from my last deployment
[01:05:56] to Ramadi I had to go to the training and so it was it was all that that's all I was trying to do
[01:06:00] was getting guys ready for what they were about to face and we had we had this incredible opportunity
[01:06:06] you know we had this you ever had a miles gear so yeah so we had something that wasn't miles gear
[01:06:12] it was like miles gear but it was infinitely better it was super high speed multi million dollar
[01:06:18] system have little speakers on your shoulder so when you were getting shot at you'd hear snaps
[01:06:22] from these little speakers or you'd get mortar and there'd be explosions going off in your ears
[01:06:27] it was it was awesome it was an eminent yeah that they actually had the very beginning of that
[01:06:33] concept when we went a live fire early on where they had targets were pop up and you
[01:06:40] need the target that was the most sophisticated we got in what I found with live fire was
[01:06:44] live fire because when I came in it was all we did everything live fire that was the big deal
[01:06:49] and we still we never got away from live live fire but we added to it this whole force on force
[01:06:55] training where you're going against guys with either with lasers or with paintballs and that was
[01:07:00] infinitely more realistic because the paper targets never maneuvered on you and same thing when you
[01:07:05] had the the guys returning from Vietnam who were maneuvering on you and you were at the basic school
[01:07:08] I had all my seals that had just come back from combat deployments and they were the guys
[01:07:13] that were going against the platoons that were getting ready to deploy so it was awesome and I would
[01:07:18] get the feedback I would get was always hey it was it was actually easier in combat you know
[01:07:25] minus the the actual death but the threat of actual death the maneuvering that would happen you
[01:07:31] know they were used to maneuvering against seals who were badass and now they're maneuvering
[01:07:35] against someone else it's not quite as you know in the game and also the enemy doesn't know
[01:07:39] our tactics as well as we know it so my guys would know the tactics that this was going to be used
[01:07:43] against them so it was it was awesome but it's just when you talk about showing up in Vietnam and
[01:07:50] and your first patrol you're going out and you're in that and you handle it that's that's a complete
[01:07:55] testament to the quality of that training because it's freaking crazy you know I think we were
[01:08:01] talking about this last night attitude development is the key to everything you know and
[01:08:07] getting your mind right is to in terms of what you're going to do and knowing the assets that are
[01:08:15] available and you know I've spent a lot of time thinking about this too you know in terms of what
[01:08:20] what I was going to face I had I had one really terrific mentor who what when I graduated from the
[01:08:30] Naval Academy I spent like two months as a drill officer at the with the new class coming in
[01:08:39] before reported to basics school and I was a battalion drill officer there were six of us there were
[01:08:45] six battalions I got the marine battalion officer who had just gotten out of the hospital from
[01:08:51] him been wounded and in Conteanne was a company commander Alpha one one and he was terrific built stenciling
[01:08:59] was his name and you know he'd been shot he'd been blown up and and he was like so easy I mean
[01:09:08] an noble bullshit easy and easy as a leader and so the other the other five drill officers in my
[01:09:18] class they they got their own office you know they're with their battalion officer and stenciling
[01:09:23] goes why do you need an office you said you you know so you're a lieutenant now you get an office why
[01:09:29] do you need an office you just sit in my office so I'd sat in his office and every day it was like you
[01:09:36] know talking back and forth you know and I'd go out and I do you know let's I go do my four miles
[01:09:41] and do all my stuff and he come back and he said what are you doing that's all I'm I'm I'm getting
[01:09:46] ready to go to Vietnam he says you want to know what it's like in Vietnam he said I'm going to take
[01:09:51] you out tonight and we're going to get really really drunk and I'm going to keep you up all night
[01:09:56] and then tomorrow you're going to work and that's what it feels like and he did you know the next
[01:10:04] day was like oh man please don't talk so loud sir and and before I before I'd level one of things
[01:10:13] I you know I talked to him about for a lift for basis school is it tell me what did it feel like to
[01:10:17] get shot at and he goes I don't even think about that stuff I mean it's just you know forget about
[01:10:24] that stuff just do your job you know and I was a very first thing I thought about when I took that
[01:10:28] patrol out I could hear something going just don't even think about that stuff you know I want to take
[01:10:34] it to the book here for a minute because well this is the chapter called Hellness very small place
[01:10:39] and it talks about exactly what you're saying here so back to the book from the day of my
[01:10:43] rival as Patoon Commander with dying delta we had been engaged in continuous combat operations
[01:10:50] intensified in recent weeks by a series of unpredictable vicious firefights despite a steady flow of
[01:10:55] individual replacements the numerical field strength of our rifle company had been reduced by about
[01:11:00] half over the past three months this was an equal opportunity battlefield we lost Marines
[01:11:06] through every possibility that infantry combat offered including gunshot wounds from several
[01:11:11] different caliber weapons and all kinds of shrapnel large caliber rockets rocket propelled grenades
[01:11:17] RPGs different sorts of hand grenade 61 and 82 millimeter morbore fire recoil as rifles
[01:11:24] plus landmines of every size from a grenade to large caliber artillery shells the rifle
[01:11:30] platoons were largely made up of young both officers and enlisted by 1969 the vented ranks of the
[01:11:38] career and staff NCOs who historically been the backbone of the Marine Corps were showing the
[01:11:44] the effects of four years of heavy combat in the infantry battalions that impact was both visible
[01:11:51] and profound within a few days of my within a few days my Patoon Sergeant the fourth Marine to
[01:11:58] hold this key position in the past three months would leave us a severe case of ringworm covering
[01:12:04] his torso including his entire crotch area front and back my first Patoon Sergeant had been hit by a
[01:12:11] booby trap while maneuvering one segment of our Patoon onto a ridge line during an extensive firefight
[01:12:16] shuffering suffering shrapnel wounds in his hands and arms and stomach area blowing off pieces
[01:12:22] of his fingers and slicing his bladder the second Patoon Sergeant had served with us for a couple of
[01:12:29] weeks and then was sent by the company commander to another unit the third he picked up his
[01:12:33] third purple heart after being hit by an RPG and thus had been rotated out of Vietnam.
[01:12:39] The fifth on his second Vietnam tour became sick of the constant combat and suddenly decided to
[01:12:45] leave the Marine Corps and our rifle company when his enlistment expired toward the end of this
[01:12:50] very operation. In practical terms this turbulence intensify the relationships between the
[01:12:56] Patoon commanders and the squad leaders as daily life and death tactical decisions would need
[01:13:02] to be made. In these relationships I often ended up being the oldest and most wise and voice at the age
[01:13:10] of 23. I was now on my fourth Patoon radio operator who within weeks would be shot through his elbow
[01:13:17] ending his days in the Marine Corps. Two months before an April I had lost two radio operators in one day
[01:13:23] the first shot through the hand by the end by an enemy sniper as he held the receiver of our
[01:13:28] PRC 25 radio in the middle of a firefight. Luckily for our Paltoon if not for him his hand had
[01:13:35] partially shielded the radio's handset which survived the bullet otherwise we would have been isolated
[01:13:41] surrounded by hundreds of mobile and highly adept enemy soldiers. On combat patrols that ranged
[01:13:47] far away from our company headquarters the tactical radio was our soul means of communicating our
[01:13:52] position and to call in artillery support and meta-vax. This of course was why the enemy loved to
[01:13:58] shoot at it. On our later the second radio operator been blown off his feet hit below the knees
[01:14:05] in both legs by a booby trap as we assaulted a ridge. Radio operators did not have much luck in my
[01:14:11] Patoon by the time I left Patoon I had gone through six. Two of my original three squad leaders
[01:14:19] had been killed one by an enemy rocket and the other from a gunshot wound to the chest.
[01:14:25] The third had been shot through the lung and in the liver during the onset of an enemy ambush.
[01:14:31] Although grievously wounded he had survived the firefight and was later met a back to a navy
[01:14:36] hospital ship and so it had been for the officers who had initially staffed our rifle company.
[01:14:42] The first Patoon commander had been killed three weeks before the second Patoon commander had
[01:14:47] been lightly wounded less than two weeks before and within the next few weeks with sufferers
[01:14:52] serious gunshot wound in his upper thigh a bullet, narrowly missing it in artillery.
[01:14:57] I had been lightly wounded and would be seriously wounded a month later.
[01:15:01] Well let's set the stage. Let's start the final couple days in basic school because one of the
[01:15:19] most important what's a speech but one of the most important speeches that I had listened to during
[01:15:27] my preparation time was given that there was a marinal lieutenant Carl who was assigned to the
[01:15:33] basic school who asked to talk to the infantry lieutenant's with things somewhere in the 70s of
[01:15:41] our 243 who finished basics who were assigned to the infantry. This guy was highly respected.
[01:15:52] He had been an enlisted marine rifleman on Igimah. He had been a Patoon commander in Korea
[01:15:59] recipient of the navy cross and had just finished commanding battalion in Vietnam.
[01:16:05] And he said I want you to understand something. Vietnam is the hardest war the Marine
[01:16:11] or has ever fought. Not simply because of the casualties which by the way ended up being higher
[01:16:17] even than World War II if you combined killed in World War II but because of the living conditions
[01:16:25] that these Marines are facing.
[01:16:30] We knew this excerpt you were reading was sort of in the middle of an operation.
[01:16:36] In addition to those types of experiences people rarely understand in America the America of
[01:16:45] then and particularly the America of today what it was like to be in the marine infantry in Vietnam
[01:16:55] particularly all of them particularly out in Guangnam province where we fought.
[01:17:02] The Marines fought in five provinces in Vietnam. Quang Tree which is where K-San and up next to the DMC
[01:17:11] to attend which is where K-San was. Quangnam west of Dunei where we fought in Quang Ngai.
[01:17:23] In Quang Tien was also a province then it's not a province now.
[01:17:28] But a plurality and almost a majority of the Marines killed in Vietnam were killed in Quangnam province
[01:17:37] and I can't give you a really major battle. I mean there are some operations that are notable
[01:17:44] in sort of Marine Corps lore but you know in under country would even recognize them.
[01:17:49] These were squad platoon company size engagements and where the constant combat activity
[01:18:01] and where the Marines operated were usually outside of anything. We didn't have tents,
[01:18:09] barbed wire, we didn't have cuts, we didn't have electricity, didn't have hot food, didn't have clean water.
[01:18:17] It was an extraordinarily rough environment in terms of hygiene, potential disease and just the
[01:18:23] wear and tear put on human bodies. You put that on top of the combat side and then on top of
[01:18:32] what you had mentioned earlier which is the constant flow of people through the apparatus that was
[01:18:40] the combat unit and the political tensions in the country. You put all that together. You have a very,
[01:18:47] very tough environment where the Marines lived and also where the young leaders operated.
[01:18:54] So you know when I'm taking over a rifle platoon in that area or the Anwa Abbasin
[01:19:03] I'm just off the plane, you know with graduate from Basics School at 10 days travel, 10 days
[01:19:08] proceed a little bit of leave, get on the plane, go through Okanala for you know to kind of get your
[01:19:16] time zone straight and then I didn't even know what regiment or what division I was going to when I
[01:19:22] hit Vietnam. We got to actually on Okanala they decided whether which division you were going to go to.
[01:19:30] Ok, we're looking at the casualty flow, you guys you're going to third-mark the if you guys
[01:19:33] you go on first-markedive and then when you got to an hang headquarters of the first Marine Division
[01:19:39] they would kind of sort us out to which regiment we were going to. A regiment they say,
[01:19:43] okay you want a first-by-tion or first-by-tion is said Delta Delta needs a platoon commander and
[01:19:51] get on a convoy take off the the company had been through some you know some serious combat
[01:19:57] and the previous days I think they had had five platoon commanders in the previous five or six months.
[01:20:05] So dying Delta was the where was the nickname yeah is that like I did a derogatory was that just
[01:20:10] gal as humor we kind of liked it you just got a deadly dying Delta you know or dog-tired Delta
[01:20:18] whatever but you're constantly on to move and you know I'm new and they're justifiably they're
[01:20:26] going oh man here we got a new guy here now what and there's always in the realm of leadership
[01:20:34] the the relationship that you have to put into place and you don't you know some some people
[01:20:39] like to say like to say okay when a lieutenant comes in you can be like the observer for a while
[01:20:46] and go along in a patrol and what rarely did those people ever fully take over their platoon
[01:20:51] you're the ready you're not ready and so I on I picked up my platoon I got them on a side of a
[01:20:58] hill and I explain you know did you insert into the field to take home over did you
[01:21:05] go right into the field they were on the move they were on the move from Liberty Bridge to
[01:21:09] Henderson Hill on a company move the convoy passed by I jumped off the convoy I talked on a
[01:21:14] radio to our our company commander you know before and I didn't even get three days in
[01:21:20] Anwar some you know usually it three days in Anwar for familiar aces said this guy's class
[01:21:23] aren't a man in basic school get him out here now and so I took these guys over ahead of my
[01:21:28] side of the hill and I said you know this is Bob Timbergan is booked a nightingale so I called this
[01:21:34] an audition for a fracking I said all right I'm Lieutenant Webb you call me Lieutenant or you call me
[01:21:41] sir and this is what I expect and I laid it all out you know and and one of the things I said
[01:21:49] which I think is very important when you're when you're leading anything I said I want you to know
[01:21:53] something anything you tell me I will believe anything you tell me the skies brown I will believe you
[01:21:59] and if you lie to me you dead meat and so there was like the hell is this guy thinking he's doing you
[01:22:05] know and then we went out that night you know and I sat down I planned it we moved to the new
[01:22:09] perimeter and when then I called my squad leader's the guy the company size perviter company size
[01:22:14] perimeter I got my squad leaders in I said I mean we got a night act and we're gonna go here and
[01:22:19] I think it was a food locks you know got their input listen listen listen listen you always listen
[01:22:24] you know being a commander doesn't mean you know all the answers it means you know how to make a decision
[01:22:28] you know and how to how to follow through and so I figured out and I listened to them I figured
[01:22:36] out a place where we would go I had a really terrific squad leader who was actually acting
[01:22:40] platoon commander that afternoon and set a series of on calls that every you know playing the basic
[01:22:47] school taught you went out that night walked in you know walked into a situation used all the
[01:22:55] supporting arms did our thing and that was put to rest which was actually a good thing
[01:23:02] and then the other thing which I think is so important you know when you say know your people
[01:23:08] know you know what's the leadership is knowledge know your people know your job know their job
[01:23:13] and know the next job because you never know when something's gonna happen and you're gonna have
[01:23:18] that next job and it's character and part of part of character is consistency and humility before
[01:23:24] your people you know and as you mentioned what the excerpt about my dad moral courage there's
[01:23:30] different kinds of courage moral courage is sometimes you got to take the hits you got to lay out
[01:23:35] what you believe is right and you got to stay with it and you know vision in other words what
[01:23:41] even taken over rifle tune you know not they they knew fairly quickly that I knew
[01:23:48] what I was expecting even though I hadn't done it yet but knowledge of people and listening to
[01:23:55] people I would go in and the first you know month or so that I was a platoon commander I would take
[01:24:01] three hours to set my lines in every night sit down every fighting hole talk to everyone in my
[01:24:06] roommates and you find out as you know you find out really interesting things about maybe
[01:24:12] simple things like somebody hadn't gotten paid or somebody got married and had a queue a lot
[01:24:16] and it's not going to his wife and nobody's taken care of just simple things you know and then
[01:24:23] then the bonds move from there you you just just to reiterate the conditions because I
[01:24:32] pulled out this this section and here where you talk about the conditions and just to reiterate
[01:24:37] what you're talking about going back to the book here and in the rifle companies we spent
[01:24:41] endless months patrolling ridge lines and villages in mountains far away from tense barbed wire hop
[01:24:46] food or electricity luxuries were limited to what we could fit inside ones pack which after a few
[01:24:52] humps usually boil down to letter writing material towel soap toothbrush punctual liner and a small
[01:24:59] transistor radio due to casualties and disease during this period in the war relatively few
[01:25:05] marines would actually survive a full 13 month tour as members of rifle companies in the bush
[01:25:12] of the basin we moved through the boiling heat carrying 60 pounds of weapons and gear
[01:25:18] causing a typical marine to drop 20% of his body weight while in the bush when we stopped
[01:25:25] we dug chest deep fighting holes and slit trenches for toilets we slept on the ground
[01:25:32] under makeshift poncho hooches and when it rained we usually took down our hooches because
[01:25:36] wet poncho shown under illumination flares making great targets sleep itself was fitful never
[01:25:43] more than an hour or two at a stretch for months at a time as we mixed daytime patrolling with
[01:25:49] nighttime ambushes listening post foxhole duty and radio watches ringworm hookworm malaria
[01:25:57] dysentery were common as was trench foot which in Vietnam was called immersion foot when the
[01:26:03] monsoon's came respite for was rotating back to the mud field regimental combat basin and
[01:26:11] hoi for four or five days we're rocket and mortar attacks were frequent and our troops manned defensive
[01:26:19] bunkers at night that was your break time and what they called it little dn bin foo there
[01:26:30] are you know the because they had a sign that's actually welcome a little dn bin foo and you know
[01:26:34] to a least they kept their sense of humor to virtually you know how you know people gallows
[01:26:41] humor is what gets you through that kind of stuff and to sort of set the tone of the on the on the
[01:26:48] tactical side need to remember in terms of what was happening to the country at this time this
[01:26:56] was a war that had been going on and it had its controversies but hundreds of people were dying
[01:27:02] every week still every week i i brought this and i know we're not on tv but i thought this
[01:27:09] there's a good one you know you're you're welcome to keep this and make copies that if you
[01:27:14] would send it back to me but this was the cover of life magazine June 27th night June 27th 1969
[01:27:20] that average week in this during this period this was the period of hamburger hill etc the
[01:27:26] 242 americans died that week two of of on your reins are in in that but uh
[01:27:35] well in post post tech 69 period which was April May we were losing more than 400
[01:27:45] americans dead a week you know even though the the war had for the americans and cats at least
[01:27:51] had peaked in 1968 the the three worst years for combat for americans bit um were 67 68 and 69
[01:28:01] they're like the top of the bell curve um we had in in in 69 i think we lost twice as many
[01:28:08] americans killed as have been killed in Iraq and Afghanistan in the entire war
[01:28:14] and you know the american people supported this and i've always believed in and what we were
[01:28:20] attempting to do however ever screwed up it got but if you're out here in the in the enwa basin
[01:28:29] the one thing that a a good rifle platoon or company commander or batang commander learned was
[01:28:39] how to adapt how to adapt you couldn't rarely you could rarely plan
[01:28:44] operations you know sort of like like Mike Tyson said about being in a fight everything is
[01:28:52] great until the first time you get hit you know on any given patrol or day in the enwa
[01:29:01] basin particularly near is on a valley you could hit you know some idiot with not idiot
[01:29:08] maybe some smart smart individual or small group of people with a couple of grenades or you could
[01:29:14] hit a main force the a con unit which was heavily north Vietnamese or you could hit a large for
[01:29:22] large force north Vietnamese we fought in in may of nineteen sixteen what we've nine we fought with the
[01:29:28] the ninety of the regiment in the years on a valley went on for eight days and eight nights we had a
[01:29:34] north Vietnamese division in base area one twelve right off from where we were the the mountain started
[01:29:39] up into louse with a hoochman trail that sort of thing we had a very fine of the con regiment
[01:29:51] which was you know rather rare that an independent regiment the first VC regiment we had to
[01:29:57] Q80 third main force for spatayan that will operate out of the Arizona valley and in you had
[01:30:02] a lot of cats and dogs and the other thing was this area had basically been written off by
[01:30:09] by American war planners in terms of the the politicization you know they're bringing
[01:30:15] into the south Vietnamese government at that time they categorize villages in talk categorized
[01:30:21] villages a through e in terms of loyalty to the south Vietnamese government a was totally loyal he was totally
[01:30:32] the on the other way and then they had category five which was politically hopeless just for
[01:30:36] it and by nineteen fifty eight you know the the country was divided in nineteen fifty four a million
[01:30:43] people came south including my my wife's entire family not very many what north basically cadre
[01:30:49] went north and they trained and starting in 1958 they started moving back into central Vietnam the
[01:30:58] Hoochman's idea was to whoever was doing his planning was was to cut off central Vietnam first
[01:31:04] anum and so you had these assassination squads move into into this area and by 1961 they were killing
[01:31:15] eleven government officials a day and that was by John Kennedy's account when he decided to
[01:31:24] start increasing our troops there so the villages had had their fights beginning 58 heavily
[01:31:32] 58 to 62 that time period and those who were staying with with the communist basically had kicked
[01:31:39] out the people who weren't a lot of move to dinang and some of them later to sagan so out where we were
[01:31:45] you I say this because operationally they populated villages that we that we operated in and
[01:31:52] they had big family bunkers they were very you know there was stoic when we went through
[01:32:00] their people were up in the mountains we had we had no illusions that they were going to be
[01:32:07] moving to our our side at least during the you know I never thought the war was going to end
[01:32:12] the way that it did but at least during the period that we were there I we were chatting about this
[01:32:23] a little bit before but I I wanted to call out this one one point from the book um almost every
[01:32:28] marine who has ever fought in close combat can relay a stories of short round stray rounds
[01:32:32] misdirected shots accidental discharges and other chaos resulting from friendly fire mortars artillery
[01:32:37] and air strikes can easily wander from their intended targets sometimes due to map error and other
[01:32:43] at at other times because of human error historically friendly fire incidents during mobile
[01:32:48] close combat operations make up about 10% of casualties. intramural firefights can break out among
[01:32:55] friendly units that misidentify their fellow infantrymen particularly while moving through enemy terrain
[01:33:02] at night and you got one incident that you call out the CH 46 helicopter approached the perimeter
[01:33:08] ready to drop our day is load two hewigunship circle overhead flying for cover the high
[01:33:14] highly vulnerable resupply helicopter which would soon be hovering above the battlefield and
[01:33:18] slowly descending into the small dirt clearing we had scraped out to make a landing zone.
[01:33:23] At the center of our perimeter the strobe light flashed showing the pilot where to land
[01:33:27] it but circling in the weed beds one of the gunships missed the strobe light for the tracer
[01:33:34] bullets of an enemy machine gun the hewie immediately powered tortoise in a low attack line
[01:33:40] that came in just above our heads strafing our weary beleaguered perimeter perimeter its machine gun
[01:33:47] spitting out hundreds of 762 millimeter bullets. I had just climbed a small sand dune to urinate
[01:33:53] at an empty spot away from the perimeter of poncho hooches and radios of my platoon command post.
[01:34:00] The hewie's machine gun sprayed back and forth inside our lines kicking up a trail of dust
[01:34:04] spots just below my feet as I stood in the open. After one pass the hewie was finally waved away
[01:34:10] back into its circling defensive laps around our perimeter. Exposed as we were it seemed
[01:34:16] a miracle that only one marine radio operator near the strobe light in our company command post
[01:34:21] was hit taking a bullet in the stomach. Well I that's one among among many and when you're
[01:34:33] fighting so so close you know and actually that that incident occurred not too long after an
[01:34:41] arclight strike we were doing the BDA on an arclight it's one of the great ironies if I might
[01:34:47] made digress just a little bit because I think it's important to point out that in our operational
[01:34:55] concepts we never used B52's north of Vin we never until 1972 the Christmas bombing of of
[01:35:06] Hanhoy and when I go back I've been back to Vietnam 28 out of the last 29 years I speak Vietnamese
[01:35:12] I you know I we still have our disagreements but you know I go back there when I first started
[01:35:20] going back to Vietnam in the early 90s everybody wanted to talk about that eight days.
[01:35:26] Everybody you know when they did this and they were living under the illusion that they were
[01:35:31] with standing American air power when we had these lighter aircraft like John McCain's aircraft
[01:35:35] coming in and you know making the runs when if somebody had made a different decision I mean
[01:35:40] the wars of war somebody made a different decision things might have might have happened differently
[01:35:44] but we did use arc lights on the area that we supposedly were we're trying to salvage
[01:35:52] you know go to New England you know we lit that place up we were our our company was I think
[01:36:00] three clicks away when when that when that arclight landed and I was holding on to the ground
[01:36:06] move into the right into the left you know how many how many pounds of bombs would get dropped
[01:36:10] there and there's I've got some statistics in there but thousands and thousands of pounds of
[01:36:19] three three B 52s we go over and actually I think in there I put the number right but
[01:36:26] you know so but to the the friendly fire incidents and how close it was
[01:36:33] you know we the way that we would mark our areas when we're when you're on close air
[01:36:42] in that environment you know and this isn't about the helicopter hitting our our guy that was
[01:36:49] you know mistaking the strobe for a machine gun around but in general you always run your
[01:36:53] air strikes parallel to your lines because you don't want them to drop short you know and drop
[01:36:58] on you so they have to make a run you know they're in we put air panels out usually sometimes
[01:37:03] we pop a smoke but it's better with air panels during the day and so they they'd make a run
[01:37:09] before they drop and so they you know they say okay yeah know you're too close know you're not
[01:37:16] or whatever and we had one and during this period where we were fighting the 90th
[01:37:26] regiment out there and Arizona Valley in May we were running an air strike against an
[01:37:31] NBA unit in a tree line about 400 meters away and we had a force coming in you know an
[01:37:36] air force a fire it's not a bomber I mean we're using for bombers but so the air four
[01:37:41] pilots they're coming in at I don't know 450 knots whatever it is they're looking out the side of
[01:37:46] their window to see to see what's on the ground so we were running the the air force I had
[01:37:52] my普通 actually was we had a rear security in the perimeter while they were doing this
[01:37:57] and they made their run and then they came on the second run and the the F4 dropped on us and
[01:38:04] actually it bounced right outside our perimeter and then you know I can what the hell I
[01:38:12] hear I hear it going right over the top of us so I turned around I start you know I want to go
[01:38:16] into the company C.P. and ask him what the hell is going on so I'm walking through this
[01:38:19] scraggle of bushes and I got all these Marines running the other way and this thing had
[01:38:24] bounced and we call this snake and snake you know the snake was the the way I kind of a
[01:38:32] propeller would break out of the the tail to arm it when you're dropping and luckily the the tail
[01:38:39] had broken off of this bomb when it hit so but you know I turned around and these guys are you know
[01:38:46] I see this thing flying through there I thought it was a body you know it's just green thing
[01:38:51] flying through the air and going down to where the or the C.P. and I'm going in and all these guys
[01:38:56] are running the other way and that bomb had had landed on the pack of our 81's F4 artillery
[01:39:03] radio operator I mean pack of the pack board you know dead center if that thing had gone off
[01:39:10] curtains you know and the other thing with it is night moves you know where one of the things you
[01:39:16] learn is in in when you when you operate like the fifth Marines did is always be responsible for
[01:39:24] the person behind you not the person in front of you if you lose the person in front of you stop don't
[01:39:31] try to catch up with them because there there were a number of friendly fire incidents where
[01:39:36] someone would get you lost try to catch up end up to the on the flank of of the the main unit
[01:39:44] and you'd have an animal firefight luckily we didn't have that happening my company but it happened
[01:39:48] in the fifth Marines so you stop if you can't find the see the guy in front of you stop and then
[01:39:55] if then if you can't see the person behind you then you retrace the exact route that you've been
[01:40:01] on to go pick them up so you know there were lessons that were learned and put into place
[01:40:07] you know we we always talk about the fact that and and life was my buddy's particular commander with me
[01:40:14] he and and wrote books with me but um he was saying you know if you would ask him before we went to
[01:40:19] her body if we would have blue on blue you know fratricide situations he'd been like oh there's no
[01:40:25] positive way and and me same thing you know like it seemed like especially in the seal teams it was like
[01:40:30] all that's never that would never happen it'll never happen and sure enough I mean they're in that
[01:40:35] book in our in our first book we happen to write about three different I mean there's 12 chapters and
[01:40:40] three of them concern friendly fire because you had to be more concerned about well not more concerned
[01:40:46] about you you had to be at least as concerned about deconfliction and you know we would hang
[01:40:52] we would hang you know giant aircraft panels once once my guys would take a building for a sniper
[01:40:56] over watch position oftentimes if there was any question about where they were they'd hang giant
[01:41:01] air panels right out the wit like as soon as they started shooting in the enemy newer we wanted
[01:41:04] to make sure that their friendly's new where we were just as bad so yeah the the friendly fire
[01:41:12] problems had happened but when I came back and I started running training I would induce those and
[01:41:17] and and they happened to a hundred percent of the platoons that I put through training a hundred
[01:41:21] percent of them had had blue on blues you know with paintball or with the laser tag system that we
[01:41:26] used because it's it's one of the things no one thinks it can happen to them you know the other
[01:41:32] part of that to be really frank here um and the the areas where we were operating you know you
[01:41:46] you you don't we'd send night acts out every night you know you you you can move we moved every three
[01:41:51] four days new perimeter you send out listing posts and listing posts and and motions after dark
[01:42:00] and you know you got Marines out there they don't really know where they are you know I mean
[01:42:04] they don't have a map you know two or three people in between them map and sometimes they are
[01:42:12] out where they're supposed to be or they or where they think they are and sometimes you know
[01:42:18] if you get somebody who's getting a little flaky you know they'll say well we don't have to go out
[01:42:24] there well let's let's just go sit in this bomb creator here and I had an incident before I got to
[01:42:28] the company where there was a fire team that was sitting in a bomb creator about 50 meters
[01:42:34] outside the lines and guy stood up like two in the morning take a leak and then reenown on a
[01:42:40] line shot him and you know the guy who shot him ended up being a chaplain's assistant I mean
[01:42:45] you live with that the rest of your life and by the time I got to be a company commander I
[01:42:50] put something into place which was very effective and that is first thing I would do is I would
[01:42:59] send out my night acts when it was still light and I would send them what I called a day pause
[01:43:08] the listing posts out to an outpost further away the ambush to a site I would have them walk
[01:43:16] by the site where they you know quietly check it out and then go to a to a pause like a hundred meters
[01:43:23] away whatever so and then when it got dark they both were moving into known terrain
[01:43:30] you know the LP coming back toward the perimeter so they had a sense of security there
[01:43:35] the ambush having researched the you know the ambush and moving back into it and then I would
[01:43:40] mortar their day pause and the first time I did that I had an ambush out about
[01:43:48] clicking a half away and they call me and they go be a fine you drop in mortars on us I say you are
[01:43:53] not where you supposed to be do what what are you going to do if you if you hit something you know
[01:43:57] what are you know where are we going to we're going to really drop rounds on you you know so
[01:44:01] so we've got everything real straight went into out drop borders under your people make sure
[01:44:08] well if you're if I'm hitting you with a mortar you're not where you're supposed to be and
[01:44:12] it's going to get a lot worse if you get hit out there so that's that'll solve that problem
[01:44:19] you talk about you know I walked it this back to the book I walked every square kilometers
[01:44:24] of those ridges and rice fields I fought many of those villages I was wounded there
[01:44:29] and here is where I and my fellow combat veteran stand on one side of a great
[01:44:34] impossible divide with the rest of the world on the other yeah because every one of us knows that
[01:44:44] if our luck had run out or if someone among us had made one in invertean mistake we could have died there
[01:44:54] no question you can be as one thing about you know I've heard you talk about I eat these before you know
[01:44:59] I would say 25 to 30 percent of our casualties were IDs most of were gunshot a lot of
[01:45:07] shrapnel moves but with an ID there's nothing more to more lacing or booby trap as we call it
[01:45:14] them and the take of your movie in at night the casualties are large and there's nowhere to put
[01:45:24] your anger you know and and if you're on the outside of that you go well you know that easily
[01:45:33] could have been made you can be a hundred percent right and still be dead we had one device on a
[01:45:39] night move every member of my platoon stepped over it on a narrow trail I was walking forth
[01:45:46] forth for three in the in a column and the last I had a brand new guy I put him on tail
[01:45:54] and Charlie it was a company who actually didn't batay in him it was a company move and it was
[01:45:59] some branch on the trail or something called boom and you know there were 19 casualties and a
[01:46:06] ambush after that so yeah for those of you that aren't in the military when you're moving at night
[01:46:12] especially pre night vision then the only way you can do it is you have to be closer to the person
[01:46:16] front of you because you got to be able to see him and so what that does and you'll be within or within
[01:46:20] being in sometimes when it's really dark you'll be able to touch the person in front of you so
[01:46:24] therefore if someone hits a booby trap or an i.e. or you get ambushed the casualties are increased
[01:46:30] dramatically because you're just altogether and to add one thing about our body on that is
[01:46:37] uh I think when we got there they had 140 known i.e. on the board at any given time and uh there
[01:46:44] were a couple of different incidents on one would in particular that sticks to my mind was when
[01:46:48] we were putting in the 17thary security station uh front of mine's platoon was out providing external
[01:46:55] security with gun trucks and I guess he's his truck sat on an i.e. all night and then right when they
[01:47:04] were about to move it went off and took the front of the truck with it luckily nobody was killed but
[01:47:08] it's nothing you can shoot back at you can't really prepare for it yeah um sometimes you got to get
[01:47:15] lucky we we had the similar thing where we we we we're going to a combat outpost in a convoy of just
[01:47:20] you know our shields hadn't to a convoy we're heading to a combat outpost and my point man
[01:47:26] or lead driver someone said hey I think there's something ahead of us in the road stops the vehicle
[01:47:31] we I'm actually watching me gets out looking underneath the vehicle with a flashlight to look and see
[01:47:35] I'm thinking myself hmm this doesn't seem good could didn't identify anything we roll through
[01:47:41] we get to the combat outpost and then a couple hours later uh the dagger clearance team came through
[01:47:46] and found a triple stack you know 120 millimeter motors that would have killed everyone in that vehicle
[01:47:52] for sure and if not a few others so uh sometimes it's better to be lucky than good and for those
[01:47:57] you out there if you think you're on an i.e. maybe not the flashlight approach you know absolutely
[01:48:03] quite a normal way yeah I had I did that it was my my first deployment to Iraq I'm I'm
[01:48:09] standing there and my EOD guys were doing a target hit and my EOD guys find a uh a booby trap and
[01:48:16] it was in a plan or box outside perfect spot where we're at a salt team would stack up and there was
[01:48:21] a little plant and it was filled with the two or three 16 millimeter motors that were rigged from the house
[01:48:27] and so my EOD guy found it was just plug it into the wall and it goes off so there was and there was
[01:48:32] actually a little hole cut in the curtain so the guy could actually sit there and watch and when
[01:48:37] we rolled up boom and so he found the wire he saw it went out the window falled it out there
[01:48:42] finds the booby trap and I'm standing there watching him you know disarm this booby trap and he
[01:48:48] looks over his shoulder and he says you might not want to stand here and I was like that's a good
[01:48:55] point I'll be somewhere else yeah you know they uh in this area in this area of Vietnam
[01:49:04] um they could become accustomed to a lot of our operational decisions you know we like the high ground
[01:49:14] we like to get a spot where you can see some of these rice patties were like a mile wide you know
[01:49:19] and if you and you want to place where you can have visuals and also provide you know
[01:49:25] potential supporting weapon rate for people crossing the patio center etc and so you know they
[01:49:30] picked these out you know and uh we had one hill 11 in here is on a valley where uh you know we
[01:49:40] had sent what when we were getting you strain features the thing you do is you'd send a platoon to sweep
[01:49:45] it you know when you first get up sweep it secure it not just for for booby traps but you know for
[01:49:52] just putting your uh your other uh units and the platoon swept it with second platoon they found a mine
[01:50:02] glued to mine uh I left I was gonna put my lines in and I didn't want to bring my platoon up on that hill
[01:50:09] with what's uh having found the mine so I uh left the rest of my platoon on the bottom hill
[01:50:16] put an air panel on my garbys head uh my radio operator said do not move I want to see where you are
[01:50:23] brought my squad leaders we were clearing lanes down into where we were gonna put uh our marines
[01:50:29] and I heard this kaboom and I look up behind me and someone had moved these people up to the top of
[01:50:34] the hill I turned around to see you guys flying through the air with a big artillery around
[01:50:40] and I saw a mugarby and running with arm hanging by a shred he was standing behind him
[01:50:46] so we had casually some top of that hill pretty pretty messy after a lot of those things we've been through
[01:50:53] and then the next morning our uh 81's F.O. we set up our perimeter at more to that after new
[01:51:05] and he he rolled over the next morning in his elbow went down and he reached up and it was like
[01:51:14] piece of it will be a sea ration cardboard he peeled it covered with mud like you know like
[01:51:21] plastic surgery so nothing lifted it up and there was a 175 artillery around with a pressure release
[01:51:28] detonator on it that he had slept on all night if he had just rolled over I would have been I think
[01:51:33] they found 15 ruby traps on that on that one hill eventually so what a nightmare and I guess what
[01:51:44] of what a good job on him on I'll get the sound night sleeping out all over I think that was probably
[01:51:51] woke up on the middle night on that one of your times thinking about lucky easily lucky
[01:51:56] um here's here's you're sorry he's talked a little bit about the overall kind of the overall
[01:52:04] I guess the overall occurrences that we're going on were beyond what's just sitting right in front of
[01:52:09] you so here we go but something else was going on at stem from the reality that on any given day
[01:52:14] three different wars were being fought in the basin the first war involved conventional combat
[01:52:20] against north Vietnamese army regulars and main force via con soldiers the second war was the daily
[01:52:26] challenge of an insurgency dominated by a long-term war of a tradition aimed at driving
[01:52:32] American public opinion and troop morale against our own involvement in Vietnam at the beginning
[01:52:38] of what became known as the American war communist leader Ho Chi Minh famously predicted for every one
[01:52:44] of you we kill you will kill ten of us but in the end it is you will who will grow tired
[01:52:54] the third war focused was a focused and precise form of domestic terrorism at this point
[01:53:01] in our history America's top leadership had yet to fully grasp the power and impact of a type of
[01:53:07] terrorism that went well beyond the traditional notions of military insurgency
[01:53:11] nor did the south Vietnamese government ever find a way to completely counter it it was sorry
[01:53:17] largely invisible war of terror and subduction was taking place daily among the rural populace
[01:53:24] designed to discredit the south Vietnamese government and to drive a murderous wedge between the
[01:53:29] people and the government and you go on to talk about Bernard Fal and his book you know he's a
[01:53:35] French author who wrote a bunch of books uh spent time there wrote a book called Helen a very
[01:53:40] small place and he warned the dick van am I saying that right dick van dick van or moral intervention
[01:53:51] contracts these were groups and what they were doing was the violent act for psychological
[01:53:59] rather than military reasons which is the source of the success of the Vietnam and the dick
[01:54:05] van will simply go on murdering village chiefs youth leaders teachers and anti-malarial teams
[01:54:14] thus isolating the sagon government from the countryside and you describe one of these situations
[01:54:22] there was no warning from around that unseen bend the air suddenly belched and erupted quick
[01:54:28] explosions piercing our ears and reverberating like an unseen blast a wind my adrenaline surged
[01:54:34] I counted three quick bursts of rifle fire and then a womb of three grenades the entire
[01:54:39] platoon became animated tense picking up the pace to a jog as we strode toward the noise
[01:54:44] within a few heart beats a young Vietnamese wild-eyed and gasping for breath collided on the trail
[01:54:50] with the point man of a platoon instinctively the marine tackled the young man and held them on the ground
[01:54:55] we did not know it yet but there had been two others after it's attacked the the assassination squad
[01:55:02] it split apart we would not capture the other two more regrettably we would not be able to kill them
[01:55:09] the district chiefs meeting had not lasted very long we were the first marines to reach the
[01:55:15] hooch I quickly deployed my platoon in defensive positions around it in case there was a second attack
[01:55:21] then I stepped inside the shadowed blood soaked room my platoon corpsmen and my radio operator
[01:55:26] came with me within minutes our companies chief corpsmen stepped inside having jogged down from the
[01:55:31] command post on Henderson Hill their unit one medical bags would soon be empty of battle dressing
[01:55:37] in turniquit turniquits together we began the ugly business of triage separating the dead
[01:55:43] from the near dead and the near dead from those who might be medically saved inside the hooch my hands
[01:55:49] armed arms trousers and boots had quickly become covered with blood we pulled the dead outside
[01:55:56] lining them up in the field as if they were already under markers in a cemetery then covered
[01:56:01] them up so that the feasting flies might find some other place to linger we had a problem with
[01:56:07] flies on the battlefield they buzzed everywhere into our food and onto our open source on an earlier
[01:56:13] morning I had counted more than a dozen floating inside my canteen cup as I heated a mix of
[01:56:18] water and sea ration hot chocolate foolishly I'd bitten into them thinking they were chunks of
[01:56:23] chocolate we carried out the wounded on the dirt floor of the hooch we had found them
[01:56:29] wriggling and turning like worms among each other as they had sought to escape the ankle deep
[01:56:33] syrup of blood and inwards I noticed the district chiefs young deputy deputy who stood out from
[01:56:40] the others due to his fancy clothes blown backward into a family altar by the blast he was frozen
[01:56:47] in death with one arm raised in the air as if he were trying to catch their grenade that had
[01:56:51] killed him that hand was gone nothing but the top of a forearm remained its white
[01:56:57] tendon sticking out randomly like unsplaced electrical wires I'd approached an old woman who
[01:57:02] is leaning back against a mud wall with a stunned look on her face her jaw had dropped and her eyes
[01:57:08] stared unbelievably at nothing I thought she was merely in shock I pulled her arm and immediately
[01:57:14] recognized the lack of muscular response of the dead I took a closer look and saw that she had taken
[01:57:20] a square nickel sized piece of shrapnel in the middle for forehead just above her eyes and so on
[01:57:28] as I waited in the muck it did not get any better this was the war we were losing perfectly
[01:57:35] summarizing Bernard Falls observation on this morning the vehicle were not asking for anyone's
[01:57:42] support they were asserting their control for all of the bombs we dropped many of them so randomly
[01:57:48] that they killed people that they killed the very people we were trying to help and for all the
[01:57:54] for all of us enemy soldiers we killed our leaders did not understand the cold focused violence
[01:58:00] perpetrated by the other side they had deliberately killed a room full of their own people
[01:58:08] a violent act for psychological rather than military reasons as a warning to everyone in the basin
[01:58:15] that it was a crime punishable by death to even attend a political meeting hosted by the other side
[01:58:26] true let me let me see if I can I can go back to the three points that you read about
[01:58:33] and just elaborate a little bit there were three wars and any given day I talked a little bit about it earlier
[01:58:43] on the straight conventional side unit against unit there's no question we defeated
[01:58:52] those forces finally and you know people during the war we're talking about the body count the
[01:58:58] body count the inflated body count it's et cetera in 1995 hand-noy admitted they lost
[01:59:05] 1.4 million soldiers dead 1.4 million soldiers dead we lost 58,000 the Southfield in the Mace where I I
[01:59:13] really want to say something about because I think they have been disrespected by history they lost
[01:59:18] about 250,000 dead and so we did our job that was our main job the second or you're talking
[01:59:28] about the guerrilla war I think we did well but we could have done better one of the things that
[01:59:33] Bernard Fal talked about was how our you know our supporting arms are we used we used we heavily
[01:59:43] use artillery mortars any sort of things and and the villages it seemed kind of random
[01:59:49] and the communist were very focused you know not on the battlefield but how they used
[01:59:55] stuff outside the battlefield they were very focused on who they were who they were after
[01:59:59] in addition to like showing that they could they could meet up with us but even on even on that
[02:00:05] war I mean we adapted and in that area that I operated in you know by the time I had been
[02:00:12] there for five months I understood the temple of that place I understood where they were they were
[02:00:18] where they had been I could anticipate them and we did some I think some really great things by the
[02:00:23] time I got to be a company commander out there in terms of knocking knocking them off balance keep
[02:00:28] in the morale of our troops up you know showing them that we we really we could go where they
[02:00:33] were and we could figure out what they were going to do the third was the key and I will say I
[02:00:40] want to see a couple of things about that first you know the the South Vietnamese the motivation
[02:00:47] of the South Vietnamese I think has been misunderstood I didn't understand this one I was
[02:00:52] in Vietnam I understood this a lot better when I got back from Vietnam I started working with the
[02:00:56] Vietnamese community here after 1975 helping them understand a political system that they were moving
[02:01:03] into you know they came they came here they were very they were organized into community groups they
[02:01:09] they knew that you know they we're going to put the future into their kids you know from
[02:01:18] day one it was like you get a job you know but meeting with them get a job get your kids in school
[02:01:24] the next generation is going to succeed but also they were able to explain in a way that I never
[02:01:31] got out there where I was about what it was they were trying to do and how you know if you could
[02:01:38] the the communist approach to this was very Stalinist hoachie men was he may he may have been a
[02:01:44] nationalist but he studied the commentary in in Moscow for like seven years he knew the tactics
[02:01:52] that we're going to be used to eliminate the opposition Vietnamese opposition and to also put the
[02:01:57] markers down the the South Vietnamese never found a way to totally respond to this and they were
[02:02:06] constantly getting their leaders they had a lot of corruption the culture is a Mandarin culture there's
[02:02:11] a lot of corruption in the culture of it large when you get you know people in positions of
[02:02:16] powers very big temptation in the Mandarin system but they were saying despite what I mentioned earlier
[02:02:27] about the assassination programs that were not fully understood in our country they were saying
[02:02:33] the people who were opposed to the war were saying the South Vietnamese are so corrupt they won't go out
[02:02:37] there you know we have a district chief in Donning he lives in his villa he has a great life he won't
[02:02:43] go out to the animal base and so our company commander who part of his first story had done is a
[02:02:49] pacification officer working with them said we're going to get him out here we're going to get him out
[02:02:54] here we're going to protect him and they found out about that and as as I wrote in the book I mean
[02:03:01] they killed 17 of their own people in one little room and the the district chief and his aid
[02:03:11] you know just to send the signal that signal was well understood you know by the people in in these
[02:03:21] areas and what we were doing was not as well understood even by ourselves one of the you know the
[02:03:28] most interesting moments for me was when I had a I've sworn the end of my tour I had a marine who
[02:03:36] was getting court martialed and to me for hitting an NCO you would not in my company anymore
[02:03:45] but he said I'm getting court martial like you know I call on his landlight on the regimental
[02:03:49] three shop you know so I'm getting court martial and I don't you know I have a lawyer I can talk to
[02:03:55] you can you come and help me out so all right I got permission to go into Donning I so I went to the
[02:03:59] three math headquarters they had this great dining hall you know that you had to try to get to so
[02:04:04] I went over to the three math head dinner and I went to a bar and this this woman it's
[02:04:13] me as woman it was working behind the bar she had a black diamond sewn into her house I
[02:04:21] and so she was you know she saw me you know I'll droopy you know mustache my boots are blind
[02:04:28] definitely my ears a little lied I definitely don't belong in three math headquarters she said
[02:04:34] you're you're from out there I said yeah she's were all you and I said I'm an Anwan she says
[02:04:41] on from dialogue which is the was the major town at the corner eastern corner of the Arizona
[02:04:47] and she said you're doing so much good really and she said she said you know why I wear this
[02:04:57] she said they killed my entire family she said in dialogue her father was a police officer they
[02:05:03] came in at night they killed everybody she was shot you know everybody but her was killed her
[02:05:09] husband is an arbon he was just had just been killed she said you know we you know we can go
[02:05:17] places now we couldn't go three years ago you know you are you are winning and you know it's
[02:05:23] first time anybody ever ever said that to me you know and another comment needs to be made and that
[02:05:28] is that the South Vietnamese leadership the military leadership my age there were a lot of really
[02:05:36] fine leaders in there and even even David Hackworth you know who said you know this North Vietnamese
[02:05:42] Lash gun be flying over Saigon by 1975 also said emphatically to me when I was interviewing him
[02:05:49] if you'd gotten these people into position they would have they would have I'm not going to say
[02:05:54] they would have won but they would have survived South Vietnam would have survived like South Korea
[02:05:58] it was Germany survive for eventual better solution so they they have been I think you know
[02:06:04] libeled in in history in terms of the competence of a lot of their they're really good leaders
[02:06:11] and people and soldiers and and reads and that's and that's from your perspective of
[02:06:16] they were you doing joint patrols with them well here's the interesting thing
[02:06:20] one of the reasons that the combat temple went up in early 69 was that Nixon had been
[02:06:30] elected president the the communist were very smart at King in their military operations to our
[02:06:36] politics 64 golf at talk at 68 knocked a president out at 68 72 the Easter offensive
[02:06:44] which your Colonel Reader was at his name was was talking about so eloquently in one of your shows
[02:06:49] and they wanted Nixon was going to meet president to in Guam in June of 1969 and they wanted
[02:07:00] they Americans to say they're getting out of there I don't know said I couldn't say there when I was
[02:07:05] over there going yeah this is what's happening but so late April all of May hamburger hill
[02:07:11] and 90th every you know place lit up for 150 people dying but Nixon announced the
[02:07:19] realization it's been mocked it should not have been mocked in the Arizona Valley we
[02:07:25] we had seen South Vietnamese out in Arizona Valley and then I was out there as a company
[02:07:29] committed brought a Ranger to unit out and it kind of got waxed and we actually moved in
[02:07:33] the they're you know to their their perimeter and they were jumping on helicopters to get out
[02:07:38] and then they sent a unit all of 51st Arvin regiment out there and these guys were good
[02:07:46] I mean I would have operated with them any day and I've got you know many many friends
[02:07:53] who were Arvin and Vietnam who will talk to you about what happened when the watergate
[02:07:58] Congress took over you know in Nixon resigned and then you know this anti-work
[02:08:04] Congress came in and one of the first substantive votes they took was to cut off all
[02:08:11] supplemental appropriations to the South Vietnamese Army there was there was no reason for that
[02:08:18] well our our forces weren't even on the ground over there and at the same time the North
[02:08:24] Vietnamese refurbished and they attacked them when they were reposition that reposition I have
[02:08:30] a really great friend you know who when I was listening to your show that we're talking
[02:08:37] about the American who had spent nine years as a prisoner of war
[02:08:43] Le Cal who's here now spent 12 years on the battlefield was a regimental commander
[02:08:51] he's 28 recipient of their metal varnish and in 13 and a half years locked up five years
[02:08:56] on a connox box he was down to two artillery rounds per tube per day when it was trying to
[02:09:04] reposition his forces when this thing hit so it was a very complicated war I'm not trying to like
[02:09:12] you know re you know re imagine what was happening but I had always thought that the the
[02:09:19] end result would probably be kind of like what you see in Iraq to sort of a slow down and sort
[02:09:25] of things out rather than what happened.
[02:09:36] Going back to the book while my mother slept so fitfully and so fitfully dreamed
[02:09:42] I was hit by two enemy grenades while clearing a series of well camouflaged bunkers
[02:09:46] the bunkers were built inside a bamboo thick at at the edge of a murky streambed the first grenade
[02:09:52] peppered me lightly on the face and shoulders the second detonated behind me just after I shot
[02:09:57] the man who threw it and the second soldier who was inside the same bunker I was hitting the head
[02:10:04] back arm and leg the grenades concussion lifted me into the air and threw me down a hill into the
[02:10:12] stream I still carry shrapnel at the base of my skull and in one kidney from the blast but the
[02:10:19] square quarter-sized piece that scored the inside of my left knee joint and lodged against the
[02:10:24] bone of my lower leg would eventually change the direction of my life. Having for months
[02:10:30] repeatedly seen far worse among many of my Marines I did not pay a great deal of attention to my wounds
[02:10:37] met a vact into alhalla and I was treated for several days at the battalion aid station.
[02:10:44] Some of the shrapnel in my head back and arm was removed and some was left to work its way
[02:10:51] out naturally as my skin healed over time the scars pushing shrapnel out onto the surface.
[02:10:57] I returned to the bush as soon as possible but the leg wound went deep into the joint
[02:11:01] and had not completely healed. In the muck of the rice paddies in the filth of the basin
[02:11:07] vils it soon became infected. I did not know it at the time but the infection was moving into the bone
[02:11:14] causing permanent septic damage. And then you go to in August your company executive officer.
[02:11:25] He lets you know that there's a billet opened up for force service regimen on Okinawa and for
[02:11:32] those people I don't know what is this is like a plush billet and here you go if I accepted the assignment
[02:11:37] for me the Vietnam War would be over within weeks and an assignment on the quaint and gorgeous island
[02:11:43] of Okinawa would give me several months to decompress from battlefield combat before I returned home.
[02:11:50] Life's gambles are sometimes settled in mere moments, weighed against years of previous thought
[02:11:56] and decades on the other side where one might reflect on the wisdom involved in a sudden decision.
[02:12:03] I listened to the executive officer and fought inside myself, pressing the radio handset
[02:12:09] against my face as I leaned against an old grave in the middle of a desolate village.
[02:12:14] Those few seconds became as they like to say in the Marine Corps a teachable moment.
[02:12:21] But I could not say yes. After all the years of preparation and months of hardship that I had
[02:12:28] endured with one infantry battalion in this small but violent section of a seemingly never-ending war
[02:12:33] I could not simply walk away. Bonds formed on the battlefield are often as unbreakable as the
[02:12:41] strongest family ties. In a word I felt obligated. Like my father serviced to country defined
[02:12:49] myself respect, more to the point I loved leading infantry Marines. With a gritty,
[02:12:57] Alon, they faced the gravest dangers. They took the greatest risk. They absorbed the highest casualties.
[02:13:04] They had the fewest creature comforts. But they also stood face-to-face and told a tell with the
[02:13:11] enemy every day. And they answered in their honor to know one. Taking a deep breath,
[02:13:21] I finally said no, then stayed in the bush. In September I was given command of dying
[02:13:32] galta. No complaints. During that time I had served under four battalion commanders and three
[02:13:52] regimental commanders. And as you know I mean as I'd say majority of the people who go through
[02:14:00] this experience know there are a few bonds in your life tighter than the people
[02:14:10] that you have served with under extraordinary circumstances. I once wrote in one article
[02:14:17] I don't say I would trust my life to these people because I already have. And I knew what I was doing.
[02:14:25] You know I knew the terrain. I felt like I belonged there. There's a scene in fields of fire where
[02:14:32] snake was a squalier. They got you ready to go on an operation and he goes and sits on a bunker
[02:14:39] looking out across the pattys at the fog pouring down the mountains. And so yeah, that's this is
[02:14:49] where I belong. And my third regimental commander who was a real piece of work and was noble
[02:14:58] back pulled me in. He found out I had two purple hearts as an officer in the bush in which was
[02:15:06] against the division order. And as he said when I left, he said this guy came in with tears as
[02:15:15] biggest horse turds and his eyes. And you know the the greatest job I've ever had is being a
[02:15:23] rifle company commander just enough independence to really be innovative and but still totally
[02:15:29] connected with your people. And I've been very privileged in in my life to be able to maintain
[02:15:37] contact not only with the people but many of the people that I served with but also with the operating
[02:15:43] military. And I learned when I when I was in law school, I you know it's where I finally ended up
[02:15:53] because I needed figure I need to screw my brain on and figure out the rest of my life.
[02:15:59] I found out that I could make money by writing. You know it was like the pure formula here,
[02:16:04] you know I could actually get people to pay me to indulge my curiosities. And so I was able
[02:16:11] among other things to you know to be with the military, our military, and a lot of different places.
[02:16:18] I was in Beirut in 1983 when I covered it for PBS and actually I left right before the building
[02:16:27] blew up. I stopped every year, October 23rd and think about that. That was a good battalion
[02:16:33] for Spatine 8th Marines. You know you've been around this long enough. You can smell a good
[02:16:37] good unit and you can tell a bad unit and they were a good unit and they were well-lit.
[02:16:44] I was able to be in Afghanistan, you know, as an embed over there.
[02:16:50] Spent been able to spend time working on veterans issues, spent five years in a Pentagon.
[02:16:56] So you can you can take this sort of
[02:17:01] affiliation and a camaraderie and have it still help in other things you do in your life.
[02:17:12] So that was it right when the Colonel brought you in and he just said hey look I don't care
[02:17:18] you're going home. You're you're you're not going to stay here anymore and there was no
[02:17:21] I I mean no I just better but it's about that no there was no you know he
[02:17:27] soon as they found out I had two purple hearts and I was on the regimental in the regimental
[02:17:35] three shot from the last two months and then came home and then I started you know my
[02:17:40] situation with the joint and my legs are acting up at Freigah home and by the way you
[02:17:47] wrote this whole book and you spent I think it was a half maybe a quarter paragraph or maybe three
[02:17:51] sentences talking about you attacking enemy bunkers throwing grenades and getting wounded fighting on
[02:17:59] that's that's the that's that's that's what you received the navy cross for
[02:18:04] and well I just wanted to point out that that's that takes humble to a new level for you
[02:18:11] right this book and give yourself a sentence or two you know I when I was when I decided right fields
[02:18:19] afar I was I was in law school there was a you know there was a very important concept
[02:18:28] of stuck in my mind and it's still there and that is that the people who went over and interrupted
[02:18:35] their lives a lot of them just spent one one tour in the record what home have never
[02:18:42] been fully appreciate have never been fully understood you know and what they did
[02:18:49] getting that down you know that the environment in which they served and you know that the
[02:18:55] there's a when we talk about courage that's physical courage which is maybe shooting somebody
[02:19:01] in one corner there's moral courage which is standing up for what you believe in and having the courage
[02:19:09] to say it to those above you and sometimes you have to say it to those who are who are below you
[02:19:15] you know no you got to do this that's all there is to it and then there's what I like to call daily
[02:19:20] courage you know and daily courage is taken a hand God dealt you and doing something with it you know
[02:19:26] like Tom Martin who was one of my squad leaders was he's now passed away he was an interesting
[02:19:35] I mean it was it was an interesting ear for me in the bush he had been in Vanderbilt University
[02:19:43] he was favor the war I wasn't a debate on the war and this guy who supposedly is going to
[02:19:47] Canada turn around and said if you think this is such a great war why don't you disco servant
[02:19:51] and he enlisted it's a very very smart knowing guy could you know when things would get down
[02:19:58] you can talk talk to me about different stuff then he got shot and he used to keep a you know
[02:20:03] everybody had this simple lighter you know you know with your slogan on it and his his slogan
[02:20:11] was life is not enjoying a good hand but learning to play a poor hand well
[02:20:17] and that takes a daily courage you know and we had an harp in our platoon
[02:20:25] had two triple amputees one one died before they got him out of Vietnam
[02:20:31] Dale Wilson the other one the silver star recipient one of the most positive people I've ever
[02:20:38] met if you if you met him you wouldn't you would know the hit had lost an arm but you wouldn't
[02:20:45] you know you'd be leaning on a cane you wouldn't be able to tell he lost one leg up by the thigh
[02:20:49] or above the thigh and the other one tumble and he takes Dale Wilson 15 minutes to get out of bed
[02:20:55] that's Dale courage never never complains he'll you'll say well I was going to be in the NFL
[02:21:03] what else to what else did I be doing here macmo Garvey arm blown off my below the shoulder
[02:21:12] we're not got a tattoo says cut on dotted line when I ran for the Senate when I decided
[02:21:17] to run for the Senate nine months to the day before the election zero money zero campaign staff
[02:21:23] I just said I'm going to do this first guy call was Macarby a night manager who took
[02:21:28] season work at lounge in Nashville Tennessee and I said man I need somebody I can trust
[02:21:33] you know 24 hours a day you got to be my driver he says I got one arm I said I don't care you're my driver
[02:21:39] equit is job moved into our basement for a year and you know I couldn't I couldn't have done it
[02:21:44] without him great great friend of sun gyms too by the way so that's that's Dale
[02:21:51] courage you know and that's you know that's really when you look at the ramifications that place
[02:21:57] and having people understand you know what how this was in many ways positive for our country too
[02:22:04] that's my goal so you're in law school and you know you've you've mentioned this couple
[02:22:10] times so far but at some point you decide okay I'm going to I'm going to start writing why
[02:22:15] did you decide to write a novel instead of write a book of your own experiences and I mean I
[02:22:19] know and I'm going to get into it a little bit of including there's a major amount of cross over
[02:22:24] but is there a specific reason why you said you know what I'm going to write a novel instead of
[02:22:28] a memoir well there's two things I started writing my last year in the Marine Corps I was put on the
[02:22:33] sector the Navy staff on was on this medical hold and I you know as as we discussed earlier
[02:22:39] it was an avid reader I loved I loved to write I was writing for my job I wrote three
[02:22:44] magazine articles in that year one of them was very controversial it was about the
[02:22:51] roles and missions of the Marine Corps how they were on paper and amphibious force and they were
[02:22:56] doing all these other things and it did it make a difference in my bottom line which you better
[02:22:59] believe it makes a difference there's not one marine general on any of these jaystaffs anywhere except
[02:23:05] that you know if if the Navy gives him one and the Marine Corps wasn't even represented when they
[02:23:09] decided that that was their mission it was the chief of naval operations and I was 25 years old and I
[02:23:13] got in big trouble you think I got in big trouble and some of these other things I've written
[02:23:17] you know the chief of staff of the Marine Corps was calling me into talking to me in the
[02:23:21] continent ordered a counter article to be written about what I had said because they were being
[02:23:26] accused in a jacus of you know this you know wanting to start some sort of a campaign you know
[02:23:32] so I had learned the power of the written word and then I wrote my first year in law school I
[02:23:38] sort of looking and I had started looking at Micronesia and what's going to happen after the
[02:23:42] Vietnam War what should the United States Basin system look like in the in the Pacific and I was
[02:23:47] reading a lot of world war two stuff and you know rommel in the desert was you know fighting
[02:23:52] from what he called the interior position you know logistically shortening logistic lines being
[02:23:57] able to hit the brits when they were after him and hit the Americans when they were after him
[02:24:01] and I said we need to develop an interior position in in the Pacific Asia and that's Guam Tenion
[02:24:06] I got really kind of into this wrote my first book actually about that and why not work
[02:24:10] for the governor Guam doing a study so then I'm saying I'm listening to the stuff that people
[02:24:19] were saying about those who served I think I met three people in three years in Georgetown
[02:24:22] Law School who had been in combat in Vietnam 1800 people student body same age group something was wrong
[02:24:29] and I actually was sitting in constitutional law class when they were debating
[02:24:35] the war powers act and they got to be very vicious on you know the people who served there all
[02:24:40] the stuff they never said to my face they're saying to each other and it's class I'm
[02:24:43] going to holy shit that's what they really believe and I started writing the last chapter
[02:24:47] fields of fire sitting in constitutional law class and then as I wrote it you know the first
[02:24:52] time I wrote this book seven times covered a cover in an engineering degree you know and and
[02:24:57] I you know I never went to a creative writing class I started reading the people I thought were the
[02:25:02] greats in a different way not for enjoyment but for structure and these sorts of things
[02:25:07] Hemingway Steinbeck Faulkner Graham Green the British and Irish poets and Sarah
[02:25:14] So the first time through it was sort of like just you know it was very good catharsis and then
[02:25:20] I got to the point where I said no I've got a piece of literature here
[02:25:25] Every one of these characters is a little bit different and it is an escalating moral drama
[02:25:31] in terms of how they are reacting to to operating in this particular area and so
[02:25:40] the power the literary power of the novel was was more important than me telling
[02:25:48] I was there kind of story a head of universality to it
[02:25:52] and a superty who came in to help me on this who had
[02:25:57] well discovered Leon Yeros was that her chief of puttin about one time
[02:26:02] just really encouraged me to stay with it and I you know I
[02:26:06] very lucky that I did because I it the book survived you know 12 rejections and everything else and
[02:26:13] still out there no so uh and and honestly I kind of answered that question for myself and I think
[02:26:19] when people read it they'll figure out why you did it because it does it has this power to it that
[02:26:25] you couldn't have done um just writing your own story even though your own story is is
[02:26:31] very similar and has probably parts that are just even more impactful but the way that this
[02:26:36] ties together and this is this is like a V iconic novel and I will say about Vitnamor but really
[02:26:46] like you could put this over just war and you got these characters in it you know you already
[02:26:51] talked about one of you got to snake who's like the street smart kind of badass marine
[02:26:56] you got Lieutenant Robert E. Lee Hodges who's who's the lieutenant you got the senator who's this
[02:27:04] Harvard kid that thought he was going to play the French horn and the Marine Corps band and he
[02:27:08] ends up in in the basin uh you got Katman who's the the Mexican point man you got the turp
[02:27:16] uh the interpreters we call them uh um Dan you got cannonball flaky bagger rabbit uh
[02:27:22] gilleland baby cakes sergeant Austin's and and all these characters and and you know as I
[02:27:28] read this it was just you know I probably read this 10 years ago or something maybe 15 years ago
[02:27:34] and when I read it again I mean it's just infinitely I mean this is because I'm older and I understand
[02:27:40] things more I guess I hope but just the way that each one of these characters and and here's
[02:27:47] something that I realize I was almost reading this book first of all we know these characters like
[02:27:51] these characters they exist in real life they exist in combat they list they exist in the seal
[02:27:56] teams they exist in the Marine Corps they exist in the army I met all these characters they're all
[02:28:00] out there and they're all out there I work with businesses now they're in those businesses as well
[02:28:04] they're in there these are human beings and and that's incredible and then you put them in this
[02:28:12] you know again I'm interested always in learning about human nature but you put this in this
[02:28:16] environment that is what you've talked about and this environment is gonna it's gonna
[02:28:20] reveal human nature in incredible ways and you just capture so much of it and
[02:28:29] I mean I want to take a look at when when Hodges kind of arrives in Vietnam and he sits
[02:28:41] down with major auto so here we go this is field of fire going back to the book major auto the
[02:28:46] batained executive officer sat behind his field desk and examined Hodges record book he was
[02:28:51] young for major in his early 30s he seemed pleasant enough the Hodges who had expected a hatchet
[02:28:56] faced ravining warrior after hearing of the major's background auto had been a company commander
[02:29:02] during his first tour and was highly decorated his right form was gashed with a six-inch purple
[02:29:08] trough left by a bone-shattering machine gun bullet and yet he had the inquisitive sensitive
[02:29:13] demeanor of a brooding scholar he smiled casually to Hodges so you think you're ready?
[02:29:21] Hodges stood at a loose parade rest in the mustachee to the tent he was scheduled to a
[02:29:25] ten three more days of regimental indoctrination school but he had not found it helpful and he had
[02:29:30] learned to hate the dust filled boredom of anawa yes sir I'm ready thanks so good they need you
[02:29:40] out there lost another lieutenant last night the major watched him closely yes sir I heard
[02:29:46] yeah good old dying delta they like to call themselves deadly delta auto chuckled
[02:29:52] he had a beaten tone in his voice as if he had seen the ritual so many times it had lost its
[02:29:59] mean meaning deadly dying delta Hodges watched him dripping with sweat in the dark heat
[02:30:06] outside a Jeep rumble past leaving a wave red dirt that seaped underneath the tent flap
[02:30:11] like a creeping frog in the distance and artillery battery an artillery battery fire
[02:30:18] emission towards the Arizona territory the major swipe to the fly then lit a cigarette
[02:30:23] as an afterthought he offered one to Hodges no thank you sir major auto side yielder
[02:30:31] he dragged deeply on the cigarette frankly studying Hodges yeah dying delta
[02:30:37] you're not ready lieutenant the only reason I'm telling you is I don't want you to panic
[02:30:41] when you get out there and find out nothing in your entire goddamn life will have prepared you
[02:30:46] for the bush not a damn thing yes sir do you know what I mean no sir Jesus Christ the major
[02:30:54] dragged again on his cigarette deadly delta yeah they really caught the shit last night I watched it
[02:31:02] he was almost embarrassing to admit he still felt uncomfortable about the irony of sitting on a
[02:31:07] bunker and watching someone else's war auto lean forward absolutely rubbing the purple gas on his
[02:31:12] forearm well what kind of person do you think goes through that shit day and in day out lieutenant
[02:31:18] because that's what it is shit and that's the way you take it every stinking day something
[02:31:24] piddly ass or something heavy this isn't World War II we can pull you out to Australia and
[02:31:30] parade after a month of fighting nope and it isn't 1965 when we first came into Vietnam we would send
[02:31:35] a company out on a two-day operation then bring the men back for hot challenge liberty yeah that's
[02:31:41] right liberty lieutenant in denang then we started a week long operations then it was a month now well
[02:31:50] we just leave them out there all the time it's more convenient the major offered hotges a small
[02:31:56] challenging smile they go wild lieutenant and there's nothing you can do about it you'll go wild
[02:32:01] too wild as hell you spend a month in the bush and you're not a marine anymore hell you're not even
[02:32:07] a goddamn person there's no tents no barbed wire no hot food no jeeps or trucks no clean clothes nothing
[02:32:15] you're an animal it gets so that it's natural to squat when you take a shit you get ring warm
[02:32:23] and hook warm and gook sores you roll around in your own filth you forget how bad you smell
[02:32:29] dead people guts in the goddamn dirt miserable civilian you know get sort of boring
[02:32:35] you cry when your friends are killed but a new friend comes on a helicopter a few days later
[02:32:41] and the dead friend becomes enshrined a martyr to friendship you teach the new friend about him
[02:32:48] and you all remember him it's very romantic it doesn't sound very romantic that's after a month
[02:32:54] or two but lieutenant when you do it for six or nine or even longer by Christ he'll never shake it
[02:33:02] the bush gets in your blood and you hate anyone who hasn't fermented in his own stench for months
[02:33:08] or stood inside a dirt hole all night waiting to kill a man who's trying to kill him first
[02:33:15] major auto scrutinized haggis oh yeah I've done a lot of thinking about it that's something
[02:33:21] a grunt he isn't supposed to do he chuckled again a sort of dry bark but what else can a man
[02:33:28] do an unhoa oh any becomes an oasis you like an hoa lieutenant I hate it you like it when you get
[02:33:37] back from the bush I guarantee so what kind of person can take it for months on end
[02:33:45] haggis felt uneasy he'd expected the major to wave the flag and talk about he will jima
[02:33:49] and then send him aboard the resupply helicopter with fire in his heart someone who is very
[02:33:56] dedicated sir either that or someone who's very crazy well there you are that's in the nutshell
[02:34:05] you just hit the nail on the goddamn head it's been a long time since I read that word yeah
[02:34:15] that I mean it's it's the iconic conversation between the new lieutenant and the executive officer
[02:34:25] and you did just nailed it I guess I'm I'm looking at a route that when I was 28
[02:34:33] now I I wanted there are a couple things here when when I started I said I am not going to
[02:34:40] write this book unless the third guy down in the third fire team says this is true this is real I
[02:34:50] mean you know true real however you want to put it this is real and that was my guide post in
[02:34:57] terms of all of the the combat sequences and and this this sort of thing is you know I want to
[02:35:03] go through this and have it be dear author I love you signed author or the way I wish it had been
[02:35:10] or you know the way I would like to present it I remember when the book came out there was a
[02:35:14] a marine three star general who had been very helpful when I was trying to help one of my
[02:35:21] former marine two had had been out in this area and I sent him a copy of the proofs and he summoned
[02:35:29] me I was working on it he summoned me to his quarters and eighth and I and he said this could be
[02:35:35] a primer on marine cortex but these were not my Marines and I went he was a carnival he was
[02:35:40] over there I said sir I don't know what to tell you because that's his honest as I could be
[02:35:46] and they were my Marines and I don't have to try to make it he would jima to to to give respect to the
[02:35:54] to the people who there but I'll tell you what I walked out of that meeting with him taking oh my god
[02:36:00] you know this is going to be really bad if you know the the Marine Corps turns on me for writing a
[02:36:04] book about Marines and then there was another two star general Schultz who had been a
[02:36:10] batiny commander and been on Taylor comedy was a with third Marine division but he'd been on Taylor
[02:36:15] Comer down here he he read the book and he called me he read it on a C1 30 from you know
[02:36:22] and Ruse to tenulton he called me he said this is the book this is the book I said will you send me a
[02:36:28] letter sir and I sent he sent me a letter and so when I had this little you know command visit
[02:36:38] to General Wilson who was the common nut when the book came out I'm really nervous about the
[02:36:43] General Wilson was a hard ass you know and so I get into see General Wilson my given a copy of the
[02:36:51] book and I said and this is what General Schultz thinks about it and over time you know it's it's
[02:36:58] been mandatory reading and the common uns reading list for decades and I can't tell you how many
[02:37:03] others I've gotten from read particularly staff and seals you know I'm here when I was in
[02:37:07] Bay Route you know as a as a journal Sarah 83 there was a there was one gunnery sergeant who came
[02:37:13] and told me I have read your book 11 times it is a text on you know on leadership if you really read it
[02:37:21] and and at the same time the the important thing also is if you're if you're going to write a
[02:37:26] novel that lasts you want that universality as you say this doesn't just fit not just isn't my
[02:37:31] experience and so it really is a very carefully drawn moral drama and you know some of these
[02:37:42] passes is you're gonna have a hundred many years and I still remember because I've written some of these
[02:37:45] twenty five times you know the the one you start off with I knew the words you know I knew the words
[02:37:50] were gonna come out of your mouth so that is you know that was my intention of with with the book
[02:37:58] and you know what kind of say it's still out there and I know you know this is honest as I can be
[02:38:04] and I know is you know there are there's a lot of rough spots in this book but I don't have to
[02:38:13] I don't have to put it any differently the other one other thing I will say is the dialogue it
[02:38:18] may be from the be having benefited from living in so many different places and whatever the
[02:38:23] dialect is you know carefully accurate and like seven or eight different American dialects in the way they
[02:38:31] say words and yeah for sure no you you nailed that it's very clear that yeah you know these people
[02:38:40] you know that then that you were able to capture it you also did a great job obviously of capturing
[02:38:45] some of the just straight combat and I want to go here just to one little situation suddenly there
[02:38:52] were loud explosions across the river the northern compound literally erupted recorless rifles
[02:38:57] flashed and boomed again and again their explosions raising clouds of dirt inside the compound
[02:39:02] machine guns and small arms hammered at the marines the two-platoon perimeter fought back
[02:39:07] red and green tracers interlaced carining into the black air making weaving patterns in the night
[02:39:12] the artillery battery on the bridge compound reacted it turns its guns north and lob
[02:39:18] dozens of projectiles across the river seeking to silence the attack new bright flashes
[02:39:23] hazes of dust grouped around northern compound then a moment of anticipatory fall good
[02:39:30] rich knew what was about to happen he wished he could tell them in the bridge compound he wished
[02:39:35] he could dig a hole in the dirt and come back out in California watch out he gloned inwardly
[02:39:40] to afraid to cry oh shit here it comes right now an avalanche mortar rounds time from a dozen
[02:39:48] tubes to land together on the southern compound then just above the stranded team the deep
[02:39:54] pops of heavy machine gun good rich listen to himself whimper he could not stifle it it seemed
[02:40:00] to him a scream that would give them all away but he finally realized it was no more than a
[02:40:05] scratchy whispering wine the bridge compounds defenders were caught unaware having to feel like
[02:40:10] spectators in the northern compound's furious defense bodies went flat inside their bunker
[02:40:15] seeking cover from the mortar barrage as they did streams of sappers poured through the outer
[02:40:20] wire sliding pipes of bangle or torpedoes to clear pathways through the concertiner for a moment
[02:40:27] they were unnoticed the explosions they created blending in with the mortars they broke through
[02:40:31] both sides of the j-shaped hill just that it's hook tossing satchel charges of explosives into the
[02:40:37] nearest bunkers half of the bunkers on the artillery side unmanned as their defenders had
[02:40:42] helped with the fire missions on the north compound were quickly taken by the NVA the rest of the
[02:40:47] perimeter storm with creeping dashing set sappers two bunkers were lost just down from third
[02:40:52] boutune's last position the sappers manned the bunkers after killing the occupants with satchel
[02:40:57] charges and provided a beach head on the lines a stream of shadows poured into the compound
[02:41:02] between the bunkers the first cell of NVA that raced past the bunkers burned an entrance with a
[02:41:08] washing flamethrower it ignited the corner of a nearby tent and drew bright red answers from a
[02:41:13] host of rifles fired from nearby bunkers there was no second wash its trigger manned and it's
[02:41:19] made lay dead beside low smoulders from the torch lit tent another sapper team quept quietly
[02:41:25] into the center of the compound and encountered two almost identical bunkers and it's hasted
[02:41:30] demolished the chapel leaving the compound leaving the command center bunker unscathed after the
[02:41:36] chapel exploded in detonation that raised a bright bright flash and level the bunker in a smoking heap
[02:41:41] another fierce mortar barrage shook the hill a north Vietnamese would attempt to take out more
[02:41:46] bunkers consolidate then retreat through the brakes in the they had made in the wire speedy's
[02:41:52] gun teamed cringed in the stream bed unspeaking wencing as the gun caught loose again its
[02:41:58] explosion seemed to be so close that one could reach up a hand and lose it to a bullet
[02:42:04] each man knew that if you were made an unward a un-toured move revealing himself in any way
[02:42:10] the whole team would not last five minutes nowhere to go nowhere to hide yeah well you know one of the
[02:42:27] of you're an anton myr anton myr's books I have not once an eagle I have not
[02:42:33] when we when the actually I think I have red wants an eagle it's a great great book you know
[02:42:40] when when when when when we sent the proofs around on on the fields the you know prensaul
[02:42:47] didn't quite know what to expect they you know the book had been rejected by 12 publishers
[02:42:52] nobody wanted to see this side of it and the the other in chief of prensaul John Kirk
[02:42:57] had been a naval invader in in the Korean war it was a Harvard graduate which I I thought was
[02:43:03] kind of interesting because when he asked me to come and talk to him he asked me to meet him at the
[02:43:06] Harvard club you know good riches the Harvard goof you know but he said I think this can be the
[02:43:12] great novel you know he said the the the great novels of different wars go against the grain of
[02:43:18] prevailing orthodoxy and he made a deal with me he said you know I'll give you $5,000 I've been
[02:43:25] working us for four years you give you $5,000 I'll print $5,000 copies but I will put your book
[02:43:30] on the cover of publishers weekly and I'll send you on a major tour I said you know done and
[02:43:35] he said actually the draft he had only had a like a a five page epilogue on good rich and he said
[02:43:43] I'd actually like to see more of good rich coming back I said would you like the 28 page version
[02:43:48] the 35 page version over 62 page version let me look at that I gave him like the 30 page
[02:43:54] version but then they started sending the book around before publication date for advanced quotes
[02:44:02] and he got a tour of them you know and one of the the advanced quotes that I treasureed
[02:44:08] the most was from Antimire he had been he also was a Harvard guy but he'd been a
[02:44:15] marine in a world war two had been on either Guadal canala or Iwajima was wounded and wrote once an eagle
[02:44:23] which is a marvelous book I haven't read that there was more in pieces like thousand pages long but
[02:44:31] he you know he took one character actually two characters but from before we were one all the way
[02:44:40] into Vietnam or that we didn't call it Vietnam and his book you know one of them was you know
[02:44:46] on Nebraska farm kid who was enlisted and you know and got a battlefield commission or war
[02:44:53] one and the other was a you know West Point guy who punched all the buttons exactly right
[02:44:57] his name was mass and gale another one was Sam David but he wrote really good combat scenes
[02:45:05] and I I I I loved his book and he sent when he when he sent he sent this long advanced quote
[02:45:12] on this book and yeah I just of all of them I went wow you know he said here at last is the
[02:45:19] the real story of those who were in Vietnam you know devoid of history on x etc etc and you know
[02:45:27] it it that you know when when you read passages like that I think of you know people like him
[02:45:37] you know reacting to this gamble you know at at the time because there's nothing out like this
[02:45:43] at the time as it was the first revisionist novel and I'll tell you when I went on my tour
[02:45:49] I'd spend a year and a half on I was working on the House of Veterans Committee
[02:45:53] developing what I sort of a a factual basis for discussion on on the Vietnam war you know
[02:46:03] how long did people really serve how many were drafties how many were volunteers what what was
[02:46:08] the makeup of the casualties you know and those who served etc etc etc etc just trying to lay the
[02:46:14] whole thing out year by year so I went out and the shows that I did that's what I wanted to talk about
[02:46:19] you know I I would talk about this other stuff but there were you know I had some real moments
[02:46:25] and also by the way I had been representing a so-called Warcreminal Pro Bono from my first year in
[02:46:30] law school who I represented for six years he committed suicide halfway through I clear his name
[02:46:35] I probably had to six years but that wasn't very popular out there but I had I was on a radio show in
[02:46:43] Boston in the middle of the show this guy stopped he said I can't hold this back any longer don't you
[02:46:51] consider yourself to be a murderer I mean I went no and actually what I said it would not be in the
[02:46:57] intro and the American Rifleman said no man is by nature of violent animal and society puts restrictions
[02:47:05] you know like me give you ABC here you know society puts restrictions on how that violence is used and
[02:47:12] I don't consider myself to be a murderer anymore than you know a police officer okay so
[02:47:19] and I had I was on a good morning Boston and the woman produced you're so nice to me it said
[02:47:23] right before I go to the show she said we used to hate you guys I said what she said no really I mean
[02:47:28] hate you I went thank you for that I'm not going with the screaming wolf here you know
[02:47:34] and it's interesting because I did a show in I think was Cincinnati which was a TV show
[02:47:39] it's speaking about the passage you just read right a little further in that passage there is a
[02:47:45] a sequence where there's an enemy soldier who is in the what trapped in the wire and he's all
[02:47:51] you know like blowing away and he starts yelling too whole I sorry I do you oh I do you
[02:47:55] you and somebody yelled shut up and shot him and the someone who was interviewing me she says
[02:48:02] how can you put that in a book you know somebody who was trying to surrender who was shot and I said well
[02:48:09] you know this this is the reality what what was going on she said I want to put that to a vote
[02:48:14] and she asked the viewers how many of you agree with him 94% of the degree with that I think she
[02:48:19] I think maybe we're starting to get somewhere here you know not you know not the lionizing shooting
[02:48:26] wounded soldiers but you know I mean reality is reality it is indeed once you touch them then it's different
[02:48:33] you know and speaking of reality being reality and it's is uh to to kind of point out
[02:48:39] some of the reality that's in this book I got one more thing I want to read from it
[02:48:47] how'd you like to stay in on Ocanawa sir that's right the major smiled
[02:48:52] Jesus Lieutenant I thought you would have jumped over the desk by now
[02:48:55] I'm on the level we just had a bill it opened up over at special services recreation officer
[02:49:02] a lieutenant rotated early on emergency leave he had less than 90 days on his tour so he'll be
[02:49:07] reassigned from the states I have the authority to fill the bill bill it from the transient
[02:49:12] tube been in country already your ideal combat time hospital time would you like it the major
[02:49:18] gybedom grinning good duty lots of free time stick around Hodges will turn you into a whole
[02:49:24] mongering drunk a simple yes and the war would be over but so what everything else and for the
[02:49:33] first time he confronted the truth yes major thank you sir and the rest of his life would be
[02:49:40] anti climax there was nothing on the other side what does a man do when his war is over
[02:49:47] wondered Hodges except keep fighting it all expectancies then lived and if not fulfilled well
[02:49:54] at least confronted the bald red hills with their sandbag bunkers the banter and fallic of dirt
[02:50:02] covered grunts the fearful intensity of contact it was too deep inside him and he had not yet
[02:50:09] done enough to be free of it he suddenly felt superior to the major a creature apart capable of
[02:50:17] absorbing combat's horror without asking for quarter down south his men were on patrol or digging
[02:50:26] new primators or dying and he was nothing if he did not share that misery he stared deep into the
[02:50:34] major's face enjoying the one moment of nobility that his months of terror had allowed
[02:50:42] thanks major but i didn't come halfway around the world to referee basketball games
[02:50:50] the the most powerful
[02:50:54] and telling scene or one of the most powerful and telling scene see telling scenes in the novel
[02:50:58] is the way that i originally ended it which is which is with uh mitzico taking her son
[02:51:08] to camp hands and she's on one hand she's trying to ex you know to to build
[02:51:19] some positive feelings in him about the father he never knew and the the price that he was paying
[02:51:24] for being half american in in the okanalan society and she says was this he says you know
[02:51:32] she takes him a camp hands in you know because he can she can see the marines there he can see
[02:51:38] the marines in air and he says was was a good thing then my like them then i'll be aware
[02:51:44] you know and and that's like whoa you know and then when i was in the senate this is her ironic
[02:51:52] we actually had a situation on on okanalan which was an exact replay where i was able to
[02:52:01] help a family of marine who would deployed to rock and found out that his fiance was pregnant
[02:52:14] and they arranged for them to be married on the phone and they had immigration issues and
[02:52:23] kid issues and all this stuff and my council Trevor Mo was when he was handling us i
[02:52:30] i gave him a copy of the file so we got amazing cool so let's see
[02:52:36] speaking of sons i want to go here back to i heard my country calling talking about as you were
[02:52:46] as you were head north to Vietnam i would soon drive west heading for california where barbro
[02:52:50] would rent a house across the street from my granny and i would catch a flight to Vietnam my parents
[02:52:55] would clear their quarters at angrier forest base and that had south to stay for a while with my dad's
[02:53:01] long time friend but called well as they adjusted to the unknowns of retirement that waited them in
[02:53:06] florida alfa had just begun omega was not so happily done in less than 20 years our lives
[02:53:15] had traveled full circle i was now the one who was leaving my dad was the one being left behind
[02:53:22] there was nothing left to say it was time to go we rose from the years worn
[02:53:28] couches and began to say our final deliberate understated goodbye we slowly made our way toward
[02:53:35] the front door of the farmhouse the radio in the dining room began playing Danny boy sung by jani cash
[02:53:44] i'm not sure that anyone other than god himself could have arranged the sweet sorrow of that moment
[02:53:50] jani cash was my favorite singer Danny boy emblematic of our long held scots Irish heritage
[02:53:57] of military service is perhaps the greatest song ever written about the painful anguish of a father
[02:54:03] watching helplessly as his son marches off to war o dany boy the pipes the pipes are calling
[02:54:11] from glend to glend and down the mountain side the summer's gone and all the roses falling
[02:54:18] to you to you must go and i must bite become ye back when summers in the meadow or when the
[02:54:27] valleys hushed and white would snow to all be here in sunshine or in shadow o dany boy o dany boy
[02:54:37] i love you so it was the first and only time i ever saw my father cry yeah and then
[02:54:55] thirty odd years later your send in your son into the Marine Corps the Iraq war is escalating
[02:55:04] because this is what two thousand three i joined in early 2005 oh sorry yeah it's full
[02:55:11] escalation mode at this point and you're going through the same thing that's harder going through it
[02:55:18] i think it's it's harder having a loved one gone that it is being gone emotionally i think
[02:55:35] my dad was gone a lot i never expected that he would react that way you know
[02:55:44] and then when you know when Jim was gone you know it was it was hard for a lot of reasons
[02:55:53] partly because i was out there campaigning part of the time and this was a very private thing
[02:55:59] to me i'm a father i refuse to talk about it other than in general terms but
[02:56:07] uh he was able to call every now and then send some emails and that sort of thing and actually
[02:56:17] that made it a little harder you know because you're getting a bit of peace here yeah
[02:56:23] we had just as an anecdote i got to make like i think three phone calls from from Vietnam
[02:56:31] when get back in and why you know on these martyrs radio stations where you have three minutes
[02:56:36] you stand only got three minutes and you got to say something you go over and then they talk
[02:56:40] on the other hand so i go hey mom i'm here in Vietnam over i never wear well i got to go now
[02:56:50] but you know getting some of the bits and pieces of what's going on and you know Jim was very
[02:56:55] very well read and smart about that region so he was seeing things even as a ladscorp role
[02:57:00] that a lot of people weren't that was tough and then you know truly waking up every morning not
[02:57:05] known if your kids alive you know i mean that's the unknowns body you uh and unknowns
[02:57:13] and a partial known body you more than actually being there i think but yeah it's very hard but it's
[02:57:18] also our family way you know and so when he came back it was i have to tell you funny story
[02:57:31] they got extended on the search you know one six got extended one six good job we got to stay
[02:57:36] longer yeah and i think there was there was a lot of fist fights going on that boy
[02:57:40] there were but in terms never back down from one anybody but so i finally said to him
[02:57:47] an email all right when you get back anything you want he says um Yankees and red socks
[02:57:53] Fenway Park may 19th and we've great great friend and i got a lot of great friends and from
[02:58:00] south Boston big marine cork community up there and i Tommy Lyons who is a random veterans
[02:58:06] programs up there he got tickets and and i know only that but Jim and one of his company mates
[02:58:13] who was from uh Boston they got off the plane at Logan and there was the state highway patrol
[02:58:21] waiting for him and uh like a squad car whatever i don't know what it was but they had the sirens
[02:58:25] go on coming to come to the Fenway and uh yeah it couldn't have that couldn't have been any better
[02:58:32] hey Jim so how old were you when you were like thinking to yourself all right um i'm falling
[02:58:36] to my dad's footsteps early as i can think there is uh two things i wanted to be professional baseball
[02:58:44] player and marine both at the same time and when i was 13 i could friend of mine uh we were warming
[02:58:50] up for a baseball game told me that could not have it and so it became kind of a binary choice and
[02:58:57] the but the re-chorus always at the front uh my dad had a rope hanging in the backyard the entire
[02:59:02] time we were growing up i think it was one day he came home i don't know how old i was but i climbed it
[02:59:06] got back down as if i could be a marine and his reaction was that he could get some sort of organized athletics
[02:59:13] it'd be easily way to wait 10 years and uh when you were when you were going in the
[02:59:21] romati so you you had paid attention what was going on in romati and you guys knew you were
[02:59:26] deploying there i mean just three eight we had done an awesome job and they take i mean they take
[02:59:30] obviously taken a ton of casualties um as had the whole one one AD and the two two eight before
[02:59:35] them and the and the three eight actually overlap between the you know they were there let's just
[02:59:40] like the first the five o six they were there between when the two two eight left the three eight
[02:59:45] stayed the first the five o six stayed some of the other battalion stayed i think but so you guys
[02:59:52] both knew how bad romati was when you were heading there right and it's uh that was
[03:00:01] to go back to when we were announced that we were going there um the mentioned last night there
[03:00:05] was some rumor that we were going to go on a booze cruise there was going to be a reward for
[03:00:08] our battalion having done some seriously good work in foulusia and in afghanistan and there was a
[03:00:15] a fairly i don't want to say it was did you action because that would sound wrong but it was
[03:00:20] kind of a whoa moment because we had heard what was happening to three eight and they were
[03:00:26] in a serious fight and all the units that had been there before them had been serious fights and
[03:00:31] i tried to get as much information as i could about the place that i was going to be going
[03:00:37] and there wasn't much written quite yet there was a little bit about two four uh one of the first
[03:00:42] units in rionson there that was in in print um but in terms of press reports they were
[03:00:49] they were an eye opener all my bluepers in bed with three eight where they were detailing
[03:00:54] and average day of patrol and these guys hoppin walls and talking about the uh the average time
[03:01:00] to contact from leaving wherever you were was about five minutes and it was it was an eye opener
[03:01:06] and and i was a boot at the time um and one of the one of the things that i would do would be
[03:01:11] would be get on a o-gresh or lively and i wanted to find some way to rationalize you know the
[03:01:18] TTPs of the enemy um could i like could i see what they were setting up when they're videotaping
[03:01:23] these complex attacks the i.e. d strikes and there was really no way to do it um you get a 30
[03:01:29] second clip of a gun truck getting hit or a complex ambush and eventually one of my friends
[03:01:36] at the time uh clip Collins worth um he's passed um you know laid into me one night about doing that
[03:01:44] it's like you're not gonna learn a damn thing you're just gonna get wrapped up in a ball knock it off
[03:01:50] and i took a device and just played video games but it was uh it was it was it was it was
[03:01:56] interesting trying to get mentally prepared for it um and i remember for it deployed uh it was
[03:02:01] an eye hotel room with him and one of the things that stood out and as you've all these things
[03:02:05] going on as you know where i'm particularly with your first deployment and a group of families
[03:02:10] trying to be there for you there's a lot of emotions flowing around and he said you know if you
[03:02:17] survive and that woke me up in a big way i never thought that was gonna be even a question and
[03:02:25] it was uh something that was really to me by not only my own father but by someone who had been through
[03:02:32] his own very serious combat experience um and uh as i try to kind of
[03:02:39] rehash all this in my head i was i was brought back to a book that you reviewed on Vietnam a
[03:02:44] couple podcasts ago where this uh new lieutenant was talking about getting ready to leave um and
[03:02:52] you know how he was eating his meal the night before um and there was absolutely no desire
[03:03:01] to be to have the meal to be involved with it his mind was somewhere else and
[03:03:06] the night before i deployed uh my cousins lived in Jacksonville um my dad took us out to i believe
[03:03:12] he was sharp shooters and it's a burger joint favorite thing in the world jeez burger um every year
[03:03:18] my birthday my mom would make a special meal and i'd always ask for a cheeseburger and i got a
[03:03:23] bacon double cheeseburger and basically just stared at it and all i could think about was where
[03:03:28] i was gonna be in 48 hours and how the world around me there was just gonna keep going on um
[03:03:34] and it was uh it's a very interesting period um although he did make me famous uh a couple of
[03:03:42] months later because the next morning we're getting ready to go out and once again Dale Wilson was there
[03:03:47] uh triple NPT he actually walked up to our barracks room uh that before we deployed um you know
[03:03:53] walked up to the second or third deck um nobody could tell you his triple NPT hung out in the barracks
[03:03:57] with my dad uh and us for a bit and then in the next the uh the next morning get ready going
[03:04:04] on the bus and somebody i guess it was a whiskey or a moonshine um you're on your uh you're on
[03:04:11] the radio whiskey um and did uh going away shots in the parking lot and there was a nice picture
[03:04:19] of it a couple months later in Iraq my company first sergeant pulls me aside there's a new
[03:04:24] York Times article apparently about it uh really yeah uh there's a research better than we
[03:04:29] could have read that on the other podcast it was a mention it was made in crazy but it's like
[03:04:33] a really web dragon on the job like uh tell you want to talk to the talk moments when you
[03:04:39] talk about being able to communicate when i was campaigning for the senate and this was like
[03:04:45] couple weeks before the election um Jim called me and he said three guys and he's you know were killed
[03:04:51] and so i'm in his car you know getting ready to go to a football game a big football game um
[03:04:59] uh down in the north like area and i get that information you know and i'm like what do you do
[03:05:07] you know you put it in a box you bury the box you go to your thing and then you can come back
[03:05:14] and pull the box out but you know getting that and that's it you know like two or three minutes
[03:05:18] and walking on having to do like two or three hours saying hello to people and not mentioning
[03:05:23] anything and whatever that you know that was really hard when when he was gone and when i was
[03:05:28] going through that let me ask you this kind of a critical question as a dad i'm gonna come
[03:05:34] at you right now so if my son was getting ready to go on deployment i don't know if i'd say
[03:05:39] if you survive i'm not sure i said that you know is that something i mean i can see why you'd say it
[03:05:45] to you know as i'm sitting there trying to think about why would i tell my son that the reason i
[03:05:49] would tell if i was to tell my son that it'd be because i would want him to stay sharp and on point
[03:05:54] the entire time and not take it for granted and realize what's at stake so that might be i don't
[03:06:01] really remember the context in which i would have said that but you know i mean that's that's
[03:06:08] exactly how i took it yeah it's stripped away the like all aspects of the relationship except
[03:06:15] marine to marine and i've always been very cognizant of my dad's experience and reputation in
[03:06:22] the rain core and it was a very clear message that you know this is going to be different
[03:06:29] you're not special and you'd better pay attention so you might not remember saying it but it
[03:06:36] sounds like some good advice i'll keep that one in my back right there are a lot of words going
[03:06:40] back and forth when you're getting ready to ship out and from from your perspective having grown
[03:06:47] up like with such a with such a focus on leadership and your family and the tradition and your
[03:06:53] family and showing up as a lance corporal inside of a platoon and having more awareness than the
[03:07:02] normal lance corporal would have because i'll tell you i mean if i'm picture myself when i'm
[03:07:06] 19 years old if i was a lance corporal i would have been a normal lance corporal i would have been
[03:07:10] you know i wouldn't have had this sort of elevated look at things i mean even having read your
[03:07:16] dad's book over and over again and and just just that level of understanding how did that how
[03:07:23] did that how did that how did that set in your platoon how did that set with you were you ever
[03:07:28] were you ever looking at your boss thinking or looking at your platoon commander thinking uh
[03:07:31] did he listen to you did he talked to you did he know who you were did he what was there anything like that
[03:07:36] they all knew um i think the the best or the most of my time i kept that off the skyline was
[03:07:42] two to three days no matter which unit i was at a boot camp i got pulled out and parade it around
[03:07:47] and it wasn't till i started asking questions this was before they actually kicked off the training
[03:07:52] they're like hey this is this is what's good um but uh i think it it put it extra a
[03:08:00] like extra demand particularly once i hit the fleet marine forces for humility because i could have
[03:08:07] you know all the informal um training if you like in the world and it was world class but at
[03:08:13] the same time i'm walking into an environment where i have not been there and done with these guys
[03:08:18] have done and i need to listen um and when the opportunity presents itself you know then the
[03:08:25] apthi practical application of what i had learned growing up would be there but until you are in
[03:08:30] your stripes you're nothing um and i think i put an extra layer on him no no question about it particularly
[03:08:36] money officers you know and the thing is is Jim has really really been smart and thoughtful
[03:08:44] about that part of the world so he had a you know he had a lens on what was going on that
[03:08:51] a lot of people at his level didn't have did you okay here's uh here's a here's another
[03:08:58] question that i'll throw at you we were talking about a little bit yesterday but um you know and
[03:09:02] i covered chesty puller and loop puller on this podcast number one twenty one and number twenty two
[03:09:09] if you haven't listened to him go listen to him if you don't know that story you should know
[03:09:12] and everyone should know it but you know loop puller got severely wounded as chesty puller son
[03:09:19] you know that that's another thing that would just i can't imagine because you were friends
[03:09:25] with loop puller yes it was and you know you told me a story yesterday about you and him arguing
[03:09:33] about the draft and his his thoughts about that and i i can't imagine that at some level
[03:09:43] you're thinking yourself well i know how i feel i know on patriotic i believe in service
[03:09:48] but this is my boy that's a hard choice everyone has to make um you know loop puller by the
[03:10:02] way i don't think we had a lot of debate but i never really got into an argument with him i i
[03:10:07] want to say that clearly because he is such a decent basically gentle guy you know but we certainly
[03:10:15] you know we certainly had our our disagreements about policy and service and uh and wars in general
[03:10:22] i think by by the time he had never hanging out he was a really really funny guy um my you know for me
[03:10:32] Jim going into the military it's a part of a family tradition um you accept the risk there's a
[03:10:39] an article i wrote for a parade magazine years ago about a father still tending the grave of his
[03:10:46] son and arnex to walk by at all the time it is one of the most beautiful stories about father and son
[03:10:51] and duty and whatever the father was wondering world war two his son uh was one to three times
[03:10:58] in killed and Vietnam went back from Okinawa and was killed and um you know it's called the price of duty
[03:11:04] and i actually mentioned Jim was really young when i wrote that piece but i mentioned you know he
[03:11:09] had already said he wanted to be a Marine you know so you don't want to take away
[03:11:14] from someone what they believe that they they should do personally in for the country so i totally
[03:11:20] respect it and he just got a put your hands inside the box led you know
[03:11:24] and you also uh i know where we're we've been at it for a while but the the one other thing i
[03:11:35] want to ask you about is uh i talk about hack worth a lot and i know you you interviewed him
[03:11:40] and spent you spent like a week with him on Australia no i actually on Hawaii was yeah i was
[03:11:45] thinking i would get the gig to go to Australia but we met in Hawaii which is not a bad
[03:11:50] not a bad guy second place the i spent about a week with him um when he was you know i
[03:11:57] guess people who listen to you know know his backstory but when he was uh deciding to come home from
[03:12:03] Australia after his exile for a number of reasons and in his book had not yet come out and
[03:12:13] prayed magazine could not review books but i went and did a feature a long feature one of their
[03:12:18] longest pieces they'd done on on him and and you know read about him before hand talked to people
[03:12:24] knew him and then got to know him pretty one kept up with him for years actually and he was a
[03:12:29] he was the kind of soldier that if you are going into a bad place you want to be with you know
[03:12:38] he was the real deal and he had a hard time at the end for a number of reasons so i pointed out
[03:12:43] in in the article i i phrased it in a certain way and my article you know i think was a quote from
[03:12:52] one of the people who'd served with him that you know he that the army disappointed him and he just
[03:12:57] decided to declare war on that but he was a soldier and yeah i thought a lot of of him
[03:13:06] that part of his life well it's some of the stuff you told me and i read that article in
[03:13:11] Jim thanks for for that to me and i had actually read it before but i hadn't made the connection you
[03:13:16] know i didn't look at the author's name i apologize i just folded up read the article i didn't
[03:13:20] make that connection but i showed of you know obviously thanks to both you for coming on and and
[03:13:28] thanks for your service and we'll put the links to buy these books and there's a new version coming
[03:13:34] out of field to fire there's an anniversary a 40th anniversary addition that they've put out already
[03:13:42] in the kindle form and it will be out by a say December in in the paper back it's no different
[03:13:47] other than there's a short essay in the front that i wrote you know dance the cover up a little bit
[03:13:53] the glad to know it's still in print so yeah and it's it's it's in print and there's there's lots of
[03:13:59] i'll say there's lots of books and movies and series and tv shows that i don't know how to say this
[03:14:08] but they could they reflect certainly reflect some of the characters and some of the goings
[03:14:12] outside the books so i'd love to see fields become probably a tv series i wrote a proposal
[03:14:18] a year ago on it and we you know it's Hollywood's funny you know it's uh when i was working out there
[03:14:24] a lot i think they were registering 40 close to 40 thousand screen plays a year the writers
[03:14:29] gild anywhere making 260 movies so you know you get to that final uh cut off it's uh pretty competitive
[03:14:35] but uh would like to see that well it's it's been a pleasure being with you it's been a great
[03:14:40] conversation yeah thanks for the thanks for coming on it and i would maybe propose this and i know
[03:14:46] it's a long trip so maybe next time i'll do the trip but we've done this once before we did it
[03:14:50] with a novel mousashi which is told people we were gonna do it and then once everyone had the chance
[03:14:56] to read it we came back or i came back on and i had a friend mine tin ferris who was a
[03:15:01] Asian studies major at Princeton and had lived in Japan and studied judo and we went through
[03:15:08] the book and kind of you know parsed it apart but uh if you'd ever like to do that let me know
[03:15:13] and thank you come back on and we'll go through it and pull you know i i didn't you know
[03:15:21] i like talk about leadership the leadership lessons inside fields of fire are phenomenal just
[03:15:26] the pattern recognition of knowing what kind of people you're dealing with and you can learn a lot
[03:15:30] of that just from the book but i'd love to hear about you know how you got to some of those
[03:15:34] characters one of my well one real obvious characters austin uh sergein austin who's like the
[03:15:39] by the book marine that's hey it's my way or the highway and and just the way you know just the
[03:15:43] way that haggis kind of handles him and and there's a certain there's a conversation that they're
[03:15:49] having and you can see haggis is pushing that pushing back up against him a little bit and then
[03:15:53] he decides oh you know i'm not gonna put push back any further because i'm gonna create a
[03:15:56] relationship with this guy and we'll get him along the way but those little subtleties that you
[03:16:01] put in this book are our phenomenal leadership lessons one one one one small point on that because
[03:16:07] i probably should have mentioned it earlier in terms of one of the motivations in writing and is there
[03:16:13] there was so much out there demeaning things that happened in Vietnam without a comprehensive
[03:16:20] understanding not only of Vietnam but of warfare in general that i felt like it was important to
[03:16:28] to create characters that could give context to how some of the things happen you know um that's
[03:16:36] with with sergeant austin how to you know i think the the numbers um you know when i was in
[03:16:43] in in law school and writing us about everybody was getting fragged you know and i remember i had a
[03:16:48] really good friend who was a world war two veteran um who was needleing me one day saying
[03:16:55] tell me about fragging i said screw you i was raised on stories of a bad lieutenant in world war two
[03:17:00] having ten seconds once the ramp dropped on the landing graph for somebody was gonna get him out of
[03:17:05] the way and he said well i shot a lieutenant i don't know if he was true or not but you know
[03:17:11] there are there are leadership lessons in in in the book and are also in austin's one of them i
[03:17:19] mean how do you how do you create positive environments if you look at where these people had been
[03:17:23] at the time that he was coming in and doing the you know the the preview Vietnam junk on the bunk
[03:17:28] which was probably essential to developing an attitude of discipline when you didn't have this stuff
[03:17:33] but you know somebody you got one point three three points seven million people over the
[03:17:39] 500,000 people in Vietnam at the time a lot of them from pre rough backgrounds and uh you know
[03:17:44] there are there are ways to motivate them you know in the narrow ways when things go the other way
[03:17:50] there's a ways to get yourself fragged well i didn't have an often but it was not it it did happen
[03:17:59] you know uh that times yeah yeah it's probably always happened it has and in some form or another
[03:18:05] yeah that's why it's important to be a good leadership a important be a good leader
[03:18:10] especially when the people that you're leading have weapons so well again that's one of the
[03:18:18] many multitude of of lessons that are in the book and again we'll put them on the website so
[03:18:23] everyone can get them and you can educate yourself uh Jim you got any any final thoughts anything
[03:18:29] else to say no just thanks for having us just incredible just listening to you to talk back and forth
[03:18:34] amazing well it's been a real pleasure well thanks for coming on obviously it's an honor
[03:18:40] to to have you on and I think anyone that's going to listen to this or anyone that does listen to this
[03:18:46] and you're going to hear from a lot of people that do listen to this they keep their their minds open
[03:18:52] keep their hearts humble as you both have talked about today you guys have said an incredible
[03:18:58] example for people to follow and thanks for coming on it's been an honor to talk to you and we
[03:19:04] appreciate most of all your service to the country and yours and your thank you thanks
[03:19:11] and at this time our guests have departed the studio awesome to have them on an honor to sit
[03:19:19] and talk with such man and and it's it's just an honor to be able to do that incredible story
[03:19:29] incredible books and get them the books will be on the website on joccopodcast.com under books
[03:19:37] books from episodes is what the technical name is cool yeah I think everyone can learn from those books
[03:19:50] if you read them speaking of learning speaking of teaching and whatnot echo Charles
[03:19:58] maybe you could teach us how to you know get after a little bit harder sure first of all
[03:20:04] okay shift gears to jiu jiu jiu obviously seems obvious yeah and I think you're in the same
[03:20:14] boat where you default to jiu jiu jiu has like a solution or a way to look at things even
[03:20:23] earlier today we're talking about true it is yeah it is it is a default way to well I've talked
[03:20:28] about it before the fact that it's a thread that ties a lot of things together it's comparable
[03:20:33] to a lot of things it's a struggle life is a struggle yeah businesses a struggle combat is a struggle
[03:20:40] all these things are a struggle and you have to learn to deal with them and they all have threads
[03:20:45] in them that are the same so yes I do refer to jiu jiu jiu from time to time if you don't like that
[03:20:50] go start your own podcast and don't talk about jiu jiu jiu thank you wait are you saying me shoot if
[03:20:56] I don't like that but you think you talking to okay I'm just making sure I remember
[03:21:02] Akron remember here right now that you refer to jiu jiu jiu as the solution to something humility that's
[03:21:10] what is this all about if you want to work on humility use jiu jiu jiu as the answer that I'll
[03:21:15] help you anyway while you do that you're gonna need a geek because you're gonna do both
[03:21:20] geek and no geek so when you get your geek no question go to origin main dot com to get your geek
[03:21:27] that's where you get it 100% yeah no doubt no doubt and you can get rascars there if you're
[03:21:33] gonna try no geek don't have to use a geek in jiu jiu you can I recommend that you do and if you're
[03:21:39] wondering if you do do jiu jiu jiu jiu jiu do you know you do both yeah that's just that's just the
[03:21:44] way to go you know they both will help each other and they're both useful and but you can get rascarts
[03:21:50] if you're gonna do jiu jiu jiu with a rascard which is a good thing to do because it doesn't
[03:21:55] get all caught up in your opponent's toes yes there's not too many things in life when you're
[03:22:00] worried about your took opponents toes in jiu jiu jiu you are a little bit worried about your
[03:22:04] opponent's toes yeah and your own toes by the way yeah and you can use the rascarge for
[03:22:09] other activities such as surfing cycling you don't cycle I know but I hear good thing okay okay yeah
[03:22:20] well I guess you can wear them for cycling as well and and spats don't forget about spats
[03:22:25] spats which is essentially compression pants you're caught but there's essentially a rascard
[03:22:30] for your legs for your love your other 50% of your body oh as deep into it's a check plus
[03:22:37] they're got t-shirt they got clothes we're making more clothes at origin we are making more clothes
[03:22:41] in origin yeah it's like full-time in a way yeah stand by denim yep i called peat the other day
[03:22:47] you didn't get yours yet no your jeans and that was really the topic yeah this is a
[03:22:52] shular right critical about that one so yeah we're gonna make it all clothes keep just keep
[03:22:57] anti-tension of that and we'll get them out supplements we got some good supplements
[03:23:03] things that will help you in all aspects of getting after it for instance help your
[03:23:09] joints with joint warfare help your joints with krill oil help your cognitive
[03:23:15] and physical capacity with discipline and there's actually so discipline we just made a new
[03:23:24] form of discipline so there's the discipline powder drink cool here's the problem with the
[03:23:28] discipline powder drink I'm getting ready to go into a meeting and I'm gonna be in there for
[03:23:32] two hours and I want to get like a little bit of a cognitive bump you know what I'm saying
[03:23:38] a little bit of a a little bump yes and I don't maybe want a drink a thousand or drink
[03:23:50] 500 milliliters of water whatever a bottle of water I don't want to drink a bottle of water
[03:23:53] because then you know biologically what's gonna occur in 45 minutes if I pounded a bunch of water
[03:23:59] I'm gonna have to quit stop and use the head yeah quit but I'm gonna have to stop for a moment
[03:24:03] and use it which I don't like so made you know some pills a capsule actually a capsule so
[03:24:12] boom it's got the it's got a little caffeine even get it it's got some new tropics in it
[03:24:17] get you a little bit of a just doesn't it have more caffeine than the regular no okay
[03:24:23] so it's literally you're slim on the go yeah it's discipline on the go yeah discipline on the go okay
[03:24:28] interesting yeah I have my took some good oh you got yours oh yeah oh I don't I mean obviously I don't
[03:24:35] go not obviously but I don't go into many people took someone yeah if he took some and he said like
[03:24:40] a text to me and peat and run who's like oh okay so that I don't feel fired up
[03:24:49] one night well JP feels fired up anyways so it's just like enhanced you can tell JP going on stage
[03:24:55] everything's clicking for him oh you know he's fired up yeah 100% so that's discipline go
[03:25:02] but milk the milk train yeah milk train big times stay on it if you're on it it's kind of hard to get
[03:25:08] the problem of the milk train is you just add ends up just being sort of kind of fit this
[03:25:12] or yeah yeah and it's interesting because you know the the idea that protein powder is it's either
[03:25:20] it tastes good or it's good quality that's it that's sort of that economy that used to exist
[03:25:25] it's too good like that did the the the the gap in that dichotomy could not be crossed you know
[03:25:31] could not be brought together it has been brought together been both again I was talking
[03:25:35] my friend Terry okay big sexy last night yeah the milk train no that's the thing and yeah I
[03:25:42] might as well have just made a commercial for it because you know you start talking about it then you
[03:25:46] start saying yeah and you get yourself kind of fired up about it yeah that's what it's doing anyway
[03:25:51] he was like hey man I got it it's good well it's on the malt train hopefully uh mint chocolate chip
[03:25:57] my personal favorite peanut butter chocolate Dave Berks personal favorite good deal vanilla gorilla
[03:26:05] technically named not directly for life babbin but certainly associated with life that
[03:26:11] yeah and he said the other day that he makes it up and he was like whoa the dude of thing he's
[03:26:16] a gay that's milk right he was pumped on the vanilla gorilla and then there's the darkness
[03:26:23] which is just pure chocolate yes and you're in chocolate in my house household the darkness is ascending
[03:26:29] to a really mint chip chocolate levels because it has like a dark chocolate
[03:26:36] okay who's who's who's it's right here yeah yeah yeah interesting I still had peanut butter
[03:26:41] and by the way I should mention that that I could understand but also you know we we also just
[03:26:49] came out with warrior kid milk we got strawberry and chocolate right now they have a little bit less
[03:26:55] protein I mean because if your kids eight years old he usually hopefully get in protein from
[03:27:02] natural food sources the problem is sometimes they don't get enough we got we got some protein in
[03:27:07] there we got vitamins in there got some probiotics in there because we know Timmy when he hears about
[03:27:14] probiotics he gets fired up and this is the amazing thing they are delicious they are just freaking
[03:27:21] delicious and so in my house the strawberry kids milk is just getting crazy I as soon as I
[03:27:29] tasted the strawberry kids milk I sent Brian a text and said make adult warrior kid milk immediately
[03:27:37] now so he's got that comment all right adults yeah yeah yeah yeah adults strawberry
[03:27:42] and I called it strawberry quickly other day
[03:27:47] by your brain when it's like it's it's it literally tastes like strawberry quick yeah
[03:27:53] the chocolate's damn good too but anyways that's a warrior kid this is the only drink
[03:27:58] there's the only thing that you you got with your kids that you want your kids to have it as
[03:28:02] bad as they want to have it there's no other thing in the world that's like that yeah this is it
[03:28:07] maybe the warrior kid books yeah yeah that's possible oh so drinking mountain do the other
[03:28:13] day oh straight up what is up with you yeah just just to sav it bear with me why are you doing
[03:28:19] problems have nonetheless I was and I came to kind of this realization fired
[03:28:25] I'm telling you okay so bear with me you know I'm not pounding mountain news every
[03:28:33] day I'm not saying that but as I drink this slow my it is as I drink this mountain
[03:28:40] do you know how you kind of like reflect yeah I'm listening and so I'm like okay what
[03:28:45] am I drinking it this good I like my I've always liked my
[03:28:47] deduce since literally for some I tasted one of the kid and so I'm like drinking it and I'm like
[03:28:52] you know what I'm drinking right now it's liquid candy is what I'm drinking literally like
[03:28:58] you know like a jolly rancher one of these you know that kind of candy they make lollipops and
[03:29:03] so you know that kind of candy consider this exact flavor this exact flavor not more sweet
[03:29:09] not less sweet this exact mountain do flavor as a lollipop or jolly rancher it would fit it would
[03:29:15] be like yeah and I'm just drinking the liquid form of it literally that's what I'm drinking
[03:29:19] did you finish the candy well it was one of those small cans did you finish it yeah how's eating sushi
[03:29:25] you know it is thank it's the whole deal well that's what it is but there's no reason for this
[03:29:30] anymore because now we have more yeah and you can kind of consider the difference right where the
[03:29:36] you know your kid if they're like how I was and you see the mountain do as a kid you like
[03:29:41] I want that mountain do but the parents like no do you don't drink that you drink drink
[03:29:44] drink drink chocolate tea instead bring a can with you well it's you know I have a bunch
[03:29:50] it's a long story you know and we're working very hard on the whole situation but nonetheless it happened
[03:29:56] and you know we're gonna move on but if you're a kid you want the mountain do I notice now it's
[03:30:01] mountain do it's like a pair of cotton it's an important it's like you say it's not a
[03:30:09] key nonetheless if this will you compare the scenarios kid wants them out to do it's like yeah of course
[03:30:15] you want them out they taste good but the birds like no we don't drink mountain do that's crap that's
[03:30:19] liquid candy we don't you know that we're not doing that's not healthy for us but the kid wants the
[03:30:24] milk boom parent yes every all time every time parents are like you want some more milk yeah
[03:30:30] yes I do actually check cool good so that's that's origin main dot com for all that stuff
[03:30:38] yeah a lot of good stuff on there also we have a store you know there you can get also get
[03:30:47] rash guards some cool shirts if you want to represent discipline equals freedom few designs on
[03:30:52] now and yeah there's some designs on there on that story in general so yeah man check them out
[03:30:57] if you want to get something get something truckers hats my wife said something about jocco store
[03:31:03] and then my youngest daughter said you have a store and I said yeah and she says where is it
[03:31:12] on the internet man virtual virtual jocco store yeah it's called jocco store tell them
[03:31:18] like your friend no but yeah some good stuff some hoodies on there as well hats as jocco said
[03:31:22] trucker and flex fit but yeah gone there and you know if you want something if you like something
[03:31:27] get something good way to stay on the path and represent at the same time boom do you rep when you're
[03:31:33] does it help you stay on the path I think so yes there's there's quite a few people that
[03:31:38] feel when they put on the uniform right you know it's a classic our typical
[03:31:47] part of the heroes journey is they're getting their gear on yeah suity not you know they're
[03:31:52] shooting up yeah that's part of the deal watch a movie what are they show that whether it's a
[03:31:57] soldier getting his boots on lock and loaded his weapon you know when they're movies when they open
[03:32:02] up like the war chest oh yeah like in like in like in the dragons to open up the war chest right
[03:32:07] yeah in commando commando you're in up it gets on to the shore the final battle scene right
[03:32:14] it gets on the shore oh yeah it was like a whole montage boots uh bulletproof vest uh you know
[03:32:19] I don't know if it was bulletproof I don't know doesn't matter he's dipping it up yeah I think that
[03:32:24] vest is more just you know just don't just you know just just call a wood 100 bruset they paint
[03:32:31] the face with the thing well you know the charcoal that they paint their face with oh and can't
[03:32:35] be pay yeah yeah yeah so I'm telling you to be sure yeah because of that yeah you can you can
[03:32:43] get suited up and then you feel like you're getting in the zone for whatever it is you're about
[03:32:49] to go do you got that shirt that says yeah whatever well big time yeah when you get a new
[03:32:55] rash guard you're that much more compelled to go train mm-hmm if you so this is a thing that starts
[03:33:00] when you're like six years old you get a new pair of shoes and it just lasts your whole life oh yeah
[03:33:05] well yeah actually the shoes that's a good example because remember when you're a kid I don't know
[03:33:09] you might be different but I think most of us when we're kidding you know when you got the new shoes yeah yeah
[03:33:13] you thought I got a school master I want oh yeah you're thinking functionality which I did by the way
[03:33:18] but you get the new shoes the new Chuck Taylor's the half-red half green one the red those
[03:33:24] of anyway we had those and so you buy them or you get them whatever from parents and you're like
[03:33:29] can't wait to just wear these to school oh and like everyone's gonna see you know all this stuff so
[03:33:36] compared to if you don't have new shoes do you really want to go to school sure maybe maybe not
[03:33:41] but with the Chuck Taylor news shoes you will want to go that's how same thing with the gym the same
[03:33:46] thing with anywhere if you got some new clothing to represent with big time Chuck do you wear
[03:33:51] drive drive fit is I think it's what it's called you wear dry fit right in what like a shirt
[03:33:57] way it's called dry fit for like working out yeah yeah yeah yeah so we don't have any of that
[03:34:03] we need to I know that's what I just thought of right now you just thought about here's the thing
[03:34:06] I knew that before because you I think you and some people actually on said that I'm working on
[03:34:11] we're working on it we're working on an origin that we can make dry fit not a compression like loose fit
[03:34:19] right loose fit loose fit quick dry that's what we're making yeah that's a pretty dope red one
[03:34:25] at the monster and I was like I don't wear dry fit at all I put it on I was like dang I like it is good
[03:34:32] boom it's kind of on my radar now yeah well I think you measure most shirts by their sleeve size
[03:34:37] so I think I said some small sleeves and you're stoked that's right anyway
[03:34:43] Chuck also stay on the path keep stay on the path keep yourself on the path
[03:34:48] by subscribing to this podcast I know it seems obvious but sometimes when people are new they're like
[03:34:53] oh yeah cool podcast in fact or a year in that trial period because they're certain podcasts
[03:34:58] that all be like hey here good things I'm gonna go listen to it and I only listen to it like at the gym
[03:35:03] or something like this or on underserdent circumstances and I'll forget you know like I won't
[03:35:08] listen to it at other times so come back to the gym or something like that I got oh let me find
[03:35:12] that podcast and you got to kind of do the search or whatever you just subscribe so I can see
[03:35:17] that scenario being the case seems saying for people because you know how well we say of course
[03:35:21] they're gonna subscribe seems obvious it's obvious enough to tell people subscribe they're
[03:35:25] either gonna subscribe if they like it or not but sometimes you do forget there are circumstances
[03:35:29] one thing so here's a reminder subscribe while you're subscribing to this podcast also subscribe to
[03:35:35] the warrior kid podcast we have some more warrior kid podcast episodes coming I apologize that
[03:35:39] they're taking long it is my fault for not being more square away prioritizing better and working
[03:35:45] harder but I have some almost ready for the release cool also while you're looking at warrior
[03:35:53] kids stuff you can check out Irish Oaks Ranch.com and get some some warrior kids soap from American
[03:36:02] made soap from a 13 year old kid that is raising goats getting the milk from the goats and turning
[03:36:10] it into soap yeah good soap too but on a farm hearing California a lot of people don't know
[03:36:15] that California is massive agriculture and farming so you can support that with a little warrior
[03:36:23] kid so don't forget about the youtube while you're subscribing because subscribe to the youtube channel
[03:36:30] jocco podcast where you can watch these podcasts on there if you want to see us if you want to see
[03:36:36] gym web and james web you want to see what their reactions are and see what they look like you can
[03:36:41] subscribe or you can go to the youtube and check it out you can also see echoes enhanced videos which
[03:36:47] he is quite proud of i'm proud that you said use the word legit well i know the jit i will give you
[03:36:54] credit when credit is due and they they enhance the message functionally sure like being able to read
[03:37:04] the words that's functional usage so it's not just is not just effects for the sake of effects
[03:37:11] which i probably wouldn't call legit you know you do throw some of that stuff in the bed so i'm
[03:37:16] sure when walls are exploding yeah might be a little bit beyond but sometimes he goes a little too far
[03:37:21] let him know but no if his videos are a little bit much ship he learns it's like the guy that
[03:37:25] learns something and they learn the cowbell they get a new cowbell for the drum set and they put it
[03:37:30] into the whole album it's just cowbell what's the cowbell it's a cowbell i mean but people use it
[03:37:37] in music occasionally it should be used sparingly so it's a real actual cowbell okay thing okay
[03:37:43] like more like a bomb okay i can't really do noise sure but they're because in dress or she
[03:37:49] drums actually all instruments really they have like names for you know like hi hat yeah there's
[03:37:55] the name of the drum i know but see what i'm saying though that's like a name for a drum like
[03:37:59] if you'd never seen a drum or never heard of a drum song says hi hat they'd be like i know
[03:38:02] what hi means and i know what hat means but hi hat is the name for you seem to think i thought
[03:38:07] that was the same deal for cowbell no no it's it's actually how they make i mean i don't know what the
[03:38:12] cowbell's look like in 1850 but this is definitely been cleaned up and modified so it's a cowbell
[03:38:20] looking thing but it's for your you don't you don't go to the farm store to buy a cowbell for your
[03:38:25] drum set okay go to the music store you say i need a cowbell i understand and then you start
[03:38:31] using it and every song and you think everyone wants to just hear that cowbell yeah yeah because you
[03:38:36] like it and there's a whole skit on saturday and a lot of the both cowbell okay i was just going to
[03:38:40] one of the patches that guys had and tubruser that eventually got banned one of the patches was
[03:38:46] more cowbell based on the saturday and live skit gotcha okay and i always did actually wonder about
[03:38:53] that more cowbell where did now you know you never know what you'd learn also psychological warfare
[03:38:59] that's an album with tracks where you can stay on the path and we're making another one
[03:39:03] it's coming out soon and that's it on that good also if you want to vary up your workout get more
[03:39:10] workout gear good on it dot com slash jockel also they got some good immunity stuff that i actually
[03:39:18] took you reminded me because i just took some felt the cold coming on true tech immune it's good on
[03:39:23] you like that one very much like that one never let me know before you travel take that
[03:39:28] nonetheless there's a lot of cool stuff on there and information that's another one that like you
[03:39:33] can get caught up in a bad way but it's a good resource when you want to vary up your workouts
[03:39:37] and do some new workouts kettlebells even that that club workout which i would highly recommend
[03:39:44] looking into what to do don't just pick that thing up and start getting nuts
[03:39:49] might get you my jam you know you also got jockel white tea which tastes delicious and it's good for you
[03:39:56] i say again taste delicious and good for you that seems to be the theme yeah we're going to put
[03:40:02] something in our body we want it to taste good yes and we want it to be good for us jockel white tea
[03:40:08] and there's no doubt that it's good for you because it's the only product the only product that
[03:40:12] i've ever heard of where an 8,000 pound deadlift is guaranteed 100% never failed me too
[03:40:18] so get you some of that get your deadlift up also we got some books first of all the books we
[03:40:23] read today and and James Webb's James Webb has 10 books that he's written the two that we
[03:40:29] covered today will both be on the website field to fire and then i heard my country calling these
[03:40:38] are the two books i read that he also mentioned a book called the night gale song which is a great
[03:40:43] book and we'll put that one on as well did you hear me yeah night gale song night gale song yeah
[03:40:49] great book it's about the the class the the naval academy guys that graduated with gym web
[03:40:55] and what they did they all had a huge impact on the navy and on the country and it's well
[03:41:02] the this particular group that he talks about so we'll put that book on there as well because it's a
[03:41:06] great book and perhaps i'll cover it at some point obviously for books we also have way of the warrior
[03:41:11] kid and marks mission if you no kids get them these books and you'll get them on the right path
[03:41:18] of of going in the right direction of doing the right things it's just gonna be it's it's
[03:41:25] gonna help kids out the the feedback that i've gotten from around the world and yes i've gotten
[03:41:30] feedback from around the world by around the world i mean australia new zeland i've gotten a whole
[03:41:35] package of letters from a classroom in new zeland of kids that are on the path so if you read a book
[03:41:42] imagine you're you read a book and you're seven years old nine years old and you decided that
[03:41:47] the book was good enough that you were gonna try and find the author who lives on the other side of
[03:41:51] the world and write them a note and say thanks because i'm on the path now that's the book right there
[03:41:55] way the warrior kid and marks mission also discipline equals freedom field manual this you know what
[03:42:01] this is christmas time you get to christmas this book is a gift it's a gift for people that you know
[03:42:09] that you want to help if you have an enemy don't give it to him is in your enemy's gonna get on the path
[03:42:14] probably come back and whatever 18 months and they'll be jacked and they'll be focused and they'll
[03:42:21] crush you or yes you're right or that could if that well i guess if they're it depends on
[03:42:28] their level of of malevolence in their soul because if they have a little bit of good in there
[03:42:34] you know what they're gonna do they're gonna read that little part about laughter wins and they're
[03:42:38] gonna see that the light is gonna overcome the darkness and maybe they'll come back to you
[03:42:41] in 18 months and like hey i got you something boom and now we're not enemies anymore we're moving
[03:42:46] in the right direction by the way do you want to train by the way do you want to jack some steel
[03:42:51] you know by the way do you want to go out eat some steak because i'm down yeah so that might
[03:42:55] actually be the move really yeah that could be the move nice the done i like the way you think
[03:42:59] that audio book is not on audible it is on iTunes Amazon music google play other MP3 platforms
[03:43:09] extreme ownership first book i wrote with my brother lathe babbin that's um
[03:43:16] taking the principles that we used in combat and then applying them to business and life and then we
[03:43:21] followed that up with another book called the dichotomy of leadership another New York times best
[03:43:27] hell which is super cool and all that but whatever let's face it what we wanted to do was write a book
[03:43:33] that actually expanded and made people better leaders feedback we're getting on that one is
[03:43:38] that's when it's helping people do the little the little nuances of extreme ownership that are
[03:43:43] that are harder to handle and harder to master this book will help you do it that the dichotomy
[03:43:49] of leadership available everywhere appreciate everyone getting that of course now we have Mikey
[03:43:54] in the dragons it is coming out um november 15th i'm trying to get as many printers as i can
[03:44:03] right now because you all ordered a lot of them so thank you and it's about a little kid who's
[03:44:11] scared of everything and he finds a book and in the book the king is dead in this village and
[03:44:18] this kingdom and there's a prince that's gonna have to stand up and fight so that's what he
[03:44:25] that's what he does the princess is to stand up and fight but he's scared because he's only seven so
[03:44:29] that's that little little exor permit little expert exor the king had always been so strong and
[03:44:38] brave and protected the kingdom from the dragon cave the dragon cave was just over the hill
[03:44:44] and filled with scary creatures that were ready to kill horrible dragons of every single type
[03:44:50] who thought people in the kingdom were especially ripe the people thought the dragons had breath of
[03:44:55] fire and that the dragon stood 20 feet tall or higher they fought the dragons had sword stopping
[03:45:01] scales and powerful long razor sharp tails but the brave king never let the beast around
[03:45:09] he stood up and fought and held his ground and as long as the king had been the king none of the
[03:45:15] dragons could do a thing yes the king always kept the dragons at bay by going out bravely into the
[03:45:22] fray it seemed without fear the king would go fight he'd beat the dragons and come home at night
[03:45:28] but now that the king had died and was gone there was only one person to fight and carry on
[03:45:35] but that person wasn't bigger mightier strong in fact he hadn't been alive that long
[03:45:40] now the person who had dragons to chase was just a little boy with a smiling face yes the
[03:45:46] person that now must stand up and be bold was just the little prince who is only seven years old so
[03:45:53] so there you go of course the villagers are worried if this little kid's gonna be able to do it
[03:45:58] and well get the book you find out what happens when he goes up to face the dragons
[03:46:05] and by the way you guys put this book to number 17 on Amazon the wall books pre release that's crazy
[03:46:10] so you guys called me out and I'm printing as fast as I can and the good news is I'm printing
[03:46:19] more of these first editions so the first edition is gonna continue I'm gonna print as many as I can
[03:46:23] and get it out and get it to everyone hopefully by Christmas appreciate it for the support
[03:46:31] against against the big boys yeah speaking of big boys you remember how you used to talk
[03:46:37] trash but the publishing company try to be all conservative and look at you now yeah yeah I was
[03:46:44] I was conservative yeah and I was too conservative yeah I didn't realize
[03:46:50] how much people were gonna get after it and I got texts from my buddies that are saying I just ordered
[03:46:55] 10 copies I just ordered 14 copies I just ordered 19 copies for every kid in my extended family
[03:47:03] and I'm like that's awesome I will get them printed as fast as I can yeah I pulled out all
[03:47:08] stops and I'm making it happen hey you know what it's my fault I should have ordered more
[03:47:11] yeah I should have ordered more because those exact things that you said about yourself were the
[03:47:15] exact same things you were saying about the publishing company yeah yeah I didn't know how people were
[03:47:20] gonna get after it well you just said that about the publishing company they don't understand
[03:47:25] and maybe I apparently I didn't understand well don't I should have taken my own advice now we do
[03:47:29] now we know the books are being printed as fast as I can print them so I like about you so
[03:47:35] apologize for that it's my fault I should have taken my own advice and well now I'm getting after it
[03:47:42] this is the CSU or sure we'll get them out there printing a ton more also echelon front leadership
[03:47:49] consultancy we solve problems through leadership that's what we do at the echelon front team
[03:47:54] me, Lave Babin, JP to Nell Dave Burke, Flynn Cochran, Mike Surreli and Mike Bima
[03:48:01] so if you need help in your organization call us call us now because we are booked up so if you
[03:48:10] are thinking about doing this in the future call now echelon front dot com go get on there
[03:48:15] and we'll hook up also mustard 2019 we got Chicago and Denver dates aren't completely locked yet
[03:48:23] but check extremalorship.com for the information and to find out when it is live and when you can
[03:48:31] book and make your reservations all the musters have sold out and this one these will too so
[03:48:39] get on it early EF Overwatch as well we're connecting spec ops and combat aviators to companies
[03:48:47] that need leaders so the military produces trains and tests in combat environment leadership
[03:48:56] and we're taking those leaders those experience leaders and bring them into the civilian sector
[03:49:03] EF Overwatch dot com if you want to get on in the game on either side so whether you're a spec ops
[03:49:09] or your combat aviation and you're looking for what your next mission is going to be or your
[03:49:14] company that's looking for experienced trained leaders to come and help you out folks that understand
[03:49:21] the mentality of extremalorship and what we do in echelon front go to efoverwatch dot com
[03:49:28] and if you want to keep discussing these things with us we are available on the interwebs on twitter
[03:49:36] on instagram and on dad fishie book echo is at echo Charles and i am at jokko willink and thanks
[03:49:45] once again to james and gym web for their service and for joining us on the podcast to share
[03:49:55] their lessons learned it was an honor to be able to sit and talk with them and thanks to everyone
[03:50:00] else that has served or is serving in the military around the world out there holding the
[03:50:06] line and also thanks to police and law enforcement firefighters paramedics EMTs, correctional officers,
[03:50:12] border patrol all the first responders everyone that is out there doing what you do for us on the
[03:50:18] home front thank you for what you do every day and to everyone else that is listening
[03:50:28] thanks for listening thanks for supporting thanks for spreading the word it is much appreciated
[03:50:34] and in the book feels a fire one of the main characters Hodges in part of the book he quotes
[03:50:41] an old him an old him that he's thinking about in his head and that old him says time
[03:50:49] like an ever rolling stream bears all its sons away they fly forgotten as a dream dies
[03:50:57] at the opening day so there you go a little reminder a little reminder to all of us
[03:51:08] that time is fleeting time is short and we only get so much so don't wait around
[03:51:16] don't put it off instead get up and yes get after it then until next time this is echo and jocco out