Jocko Podcast 138 w/ Leif Babin: The Dichotomy of Leadership

2018-08-16T22:41:37Z

Join the conversation on Twitter/Instagram: @jockowillink @RealLeifBabin @echocharles 0:00:00 - Opening 0:08:10 - The Dichotomy of Leadership with Leif Babin 1:07:37 - Self control and When to raise your voice. 1:11:10 - Ensuring success when working with Iraq Troops. 1:21:23 - Balancing giving clear direction and talking too much. 1:25:48 - IN n' Out VS What a Burger. 1:27:42 - Teaching Jiu Jitsu white belts "dangerous" techniques. 1:35:23 - Is the Muster for older people, too? 1:36:33 - Are big group meetings less productive than smaller group meetings? 1:43:29 - How to mediate upper management and front line troops at work. 1:49:17 - Avoiding isolation of leadership. 1:56:21 - What has change for Leif and Jocko from the time Extreme Ownership was written until now? 2:02:23 - Support. 2:35:58 - Closing Gratitude.

AI summary of episode

I guess we could say and get that one man I want to I want to hear that one I want to hear the Texas Batman get crazy in in Ramadi in 2006 this is bringing back some awesome memories here bright orange tracer streaked like laser beams just a few feet over our heads each supersonic bullet zipping past with a thunderous crack holy shit I thought as we quickly duck down behind the roof wall those are friendly shooting at us I looked over at Dave Burke who crouched down nearby like the other seals on the roof with us we tried to stay low enough not to get our head shot off Dave looked back at me and shook his head with a smile mixed humor and concern that's not cool they've said the understatement of the year Dave Burke was a US Marine Corps major a fighter pilot by trade he had been the lead instructor at the legendary US Navy fighter weapon school better known as top gun Dave had left the cockpit behind a volunteer to serve on the ground as a forward air controller in the most dangerous place in Iraq Ramadi he led a supporting arms liaison team or salt attached to the US Marine Corps fifth air naval gun fire liaison company Dave and his twelve Marines from salt six a company Charlie Batoon to coordinate with the aircraft supporting this operation in the skies overhead they patrolled him with us on foot to spearhead the operation ahead of the US Army and Iraqi Army units a US tank 200 yards away had fired a burst from its heavy machine gun directly over our position it was friendly fire a blue on blue in US military parlance to be killed or horribly wounded by enemy fire was one thing to be killed by our own american forces was something much worse that was way too close for comfort I thought in the seconds following as a crouches lowest possible behind the low concrete wall that was our only means of cover we had to shut that down immediately and alert the tank that we were friendly forces to do so I had to contact the specific tank commander directly via radio and tell them to cease fire the tanks heavy machine gun was a 50 caliber M2 Browning known as the Maadouce it packed a hell of a punch and US military service since 1933 it improvement its deadly effectiveness in every american war since World War I each massive round could take a man's head clean off or remove the bulk of his chest cavity it could also punch right through concrete walls like the one we were hiding behind we had just received a fully automatic burst of probably a dozen rounds in a matter of seconds if I didn't shut down the fire immediately and let the US tank know we were friendly it could mean horrible wounds in death for a number of us blue on blue it's even an extreme ownership we talked there's three episodes of blue on blue potential or blue the app with with Chris potentially shooting the american trooper that was in a in a building the Bradley getting ready to light up stoneers guys and also the blue on blue that the book starts off with there's it's interesting and a reality of war that we talk about blue on blue a lot in that urban environment the other thing I noticed is did I don't mean to accuse you here like you know on this in this format but each massive round could take a man's head clean off is that not just jacked from clean eastwood right there come on man that's 44 magnum that's dirty hairy yeah that caught a new leadership it's coming out September 25th if you want to if you want to get some you can get some of that we got some Q&A we got some questions to discuss here how does jump right into it number one what are speaking of that this is this is falling together quite nicely question number one what are things to look for when you're debating whether to raise your voice or yell due to those under you being lazy or unmotivated y'all talk a lot about the importance of self control and not just losing it but would you say there's a time and place for raising the intensity while still being respectful towards your guys so there you go yellin and scream it gets them sometimes you gotta just drop the hammer jocco yelled and scream it us all the time like I've I've talked about on this you know I think on the podcast we started talking about all the time and the number of times at jocco screamed and yelled at me zero zero times in all the years that we worked together and and I know I gave him at least dozens maybe hundreds of opportunities that we want to probably done that and he didn't do that because he realized it it wasn't effective so now listen there there is there is a time where you know if there's a major safety issue going on you're trying to get people's attention and you want people to cease fire or you need to rally the truth where you got to raise your voice and get people's attention yeah typically is not gonna happen but like the control thing right like you know you get a even a good blue belt is been in for a long time per belt up purple belt and up they're gonna know the control on a hill hook like if I you know purple belt doesn't heal hook on you the risk of you getting injured unless you don't tap or something like that is pretty low it's gonna be pretty low because they know that control of just their whole body and you don't know you should tap this is uh I gotta I gotta tell you look obviously I'm from Texas water burgers are all over the place and water burgers are awesome you can't go wrong with the water burger um in and out is uh it's pretty tough to be though it's uh there's something special about the internet I used to have you know over Pacific Beach I had a storage unit over there and there's like my storage unit was like right in and up or a hill those are good burgers the uh my storage unit was it would like kick the exhaust or like right back up into and so so like the exhaust blasting in your face you know from like 25 yards 30 yards away as I'm like there at my storage unit on the server for whatever and I think we explained that pretty well in this book and this this book was written just like extreme ownership that economy leadership was written to help leaders as a reference manual and and if it's something that you know if I see pages like we see so many cops of extreme ownership I mean I want to see pages that are underlined that are highlighted they're tab that are they're utilized by leaders and and if we've done that and this is a manual that helps leaders lead better and be better people and lead better teams that then this will have a accomplishes mission you know what's cool is is I think it's very similar to the fact that with extreme ownership right with that attitude with that attitude when you get in that mindset you start seeing it everywhere and you start when someone makes an excuse you recognize me that you go that's an excuse like echo is giving you a hard time about your your lack of a haircut and and you know you were you were saying that I was my fault and we're laughing about it yes you know well here's the thing about that when you kind of did take a step back it's like you you just went extreme you weren't wrong you just went extreme that's all you know you don't have to do the balance so this guy in Michigan he had the balance because he knows the extreme he knows about the value of the thing who he's in Michigan I gotta say for the folks in Michigan though like being up there in North Dakota doing to work like when you go to Alaska and you you know it's like pretty cool out and you got your jacket on he's looking on there's dudes like T-shirts just hanging out that's where it was it's all relative it's a long one can you explain more how you managed working with the local Iraqi troops general matters who I hold in the highest extreme a steam said something to the effect that if you are doing anything that negatively impacts relations with allied forces you are of more used to the enemy than you are to the your team this makes it quite obvious that he believes that full cooperation with allied forces is key to attaining victory it is a well established fact that most of the Iraqi forces were incompetent to the point of posing danger to US troops so what steps did you take to ensure success when working with them well obviously relations with your allies are critical it's cover move ready you got to work together as a team and if you're working against each other that's absolutely catastrophic I think for us with Iraqi troops you know again we talked about how that was liberating right for for you know the big pushback was always like we want to do just seal you don't matter what race we call just seals or just Americans you know just like NATO ally forces and not work with with Iraqi troops and you know when you said that right away attack that's good listen don't even put up a concept of operations we have a connoisse we call it which is the approval for the plan that doesn't have Iraqi troops on it well while you're not shooting at the enemy the enemy is maneuvering and they are getting high ground and they are getting a superior position and this is the exact same thing in the business world where I mean the the example of like hey we got to grow and so the aggressive leader the overly aggressive the hyper aggressive leader will grow too fast and all of a sudden has overhead that's too much and can't afford to go on but at the same time you get a you get a company that's not that's not aggressive enough and they should be entering another another line of operation they should be putting they should be entering another market you know we were talking about this morning while we were working out block blockbuster and blackberry right blockbuster and blackberry who would have thought that blockbuster which was there was a blockbuster on every street corner there was a block blackberry and everyone's pocket and they owned something like 80 something percent of the market share that they're done now are you telling me that someone that was default aggressive would have said you know what we need to figure out how to you know what these these these movies might be able to come on the internet in fact there's streaming video let's get into that market and of course they would have the capital they would have the infrastructure they would have the people and they could they would have been able to make that happen they had relationships with with the with the with the big Hollywood studios right they were getting sent those movies they had relationships they could have done that and it became really evident even though we have you know it's the last chapter the last chapter in extreme ownership is the dichotomy leadership and discipline equals freedom and you know we put it in there because we knew it was important but now after working with more people over the past few years it's become so obvious that this is like such a critical the being able to balance balance balance balance I use that word nine times in every paragraph because that's what you have to do if you're a leader and and we talk about this too and the opening of in the opening of the book and you know in the opening of dichotomy leadership we talk about how one of the problems with the book extreme ownership is the title extreme ownership because it made everyone just want to get extraordinary with everything I'm going to be super extreme and so that means you know what I'm going to do but get extreme on our own everything and we that was one of the earliest things that I started noticing was people that took so much ownership so on the leader I'm in charge and you simply observe you're gonna have a better time feeling like the meeting is effective and you will get the benefit of hearing all these different voices which is good which is good to hear all these different opinions and voices and be able to pick through and sort through and that's gonna give you more benefit than you know what I get there's two it's going on this meeting only give me two people and we'll make the decisions well there's some people number number the six person that person had a good input right the 12 person might had some good input so again is there balance yes are there certain decisions that you kind of need to take and really dive down in with a small group absolutely but is it good sometimes to let things air out and let someone run a meeting and you listen and you learn kind of what the overall atmosphere is in the situation are absolutely that's my answer I think it's a great one it helps people it helps people listen to you as well so the the main thing that sticks out main thing is that is what people seem to ask you all the time is what do I do when other people aren't taking extreme ownership and here's thing when you're outside and listening you're like a high see what you know it's almost like a funny question right because like what what do you call that like ironic right kind of or they're like what do you do when other people yeah even though this is going to be the undisputed champion of comfort according to kind of sorry and and rash guards I wear I wear the rash guard when I'm working out some days the days I wear it when I'm working out it's long sleeve is when I'm doing a lot of stuff on the rings so my arms don't get all chafed up which is a comfort move if you break it down just saying yeah well let me finish that let's say the results of not having the rash guard imp or impedes or gets in the way of your functionality or something like this you know you know how like like some people who wear straps or they'll wear I don't know what it it well we see it all the time now is with businesses because guess what there's no business that's stand on the worship center is very few that are completely vertically integrated businesses I mean like an origin right we don't we we're pretty vertically integrated but guess what we don't grow the cotton like we don't do that we don't grow cotton but guess what we have a good relationship with the people that grow cotton we have a good relationship with the people at stain the cotton or sorry die the cotton so we build those relationships with those other people now I work with businesses where there's a supplier that they don't like so guess what they form a hostile relationship with this whole company a whole company what could does that do them it doesn't do them any good at all what it means is they have no personal relationships they they form that antagonistic relationship with a whole other organization and it's almost impossible to overcome so now this is something where if you don't explain that culture throughout your team they're going to treat that other team horribly and so if you're waiting on supplies if you're on a construction site and you're waiting for materials to be delivered and you don't have a good relationship with the people that deliver the drywall and now the drywall's run late for whatever reason and you call you you fly off the handle or whatever you're you're not going to get that drywall any earlier it's not happening heavy ever and you actually right show you guys who can you shoulder you know just varying levels of shoulder flexibility and then that also goes for like the pain tolerance as well knees last way less from from a wide bill perspective there's so much to to learn I mean it's you know and the more I train the more I realize how little I actually know and how much more there is that I mean why I would I would I would I would rather focus on you know on the more the more foundational aspects of the game and until I can get those a little bit better I think that makes a lot of sense to me I think you might be the bull white belt right now of the world so in the in the navy the ensin which is the lowest ranking ensin at a ship or a seal team he gets called the bull ensin which means he's been the junior guy for the longest amount of time and you've been trained she's your footer quite some would you well you start training with me in 2005 and if you'd have a linen on us being able to learn how to use a radio I mean that could have cost lives right there another verse around comes to the roof wall are we take a main gun round now you're talking the the cannon on the tank the 120 millimeter main gun round you know just smash through both sides of walls you know it would it would have been absolute catastrophic those guys think you know they're under attack they're shooting back at what they think is enemy that didn't realize it and it's not like they were they were not ready to use those main gun rounds if they had to they were they were putting some buildings down over there for sure and that's and that's the hard part right is that you've got to hold a line and there's standards that can't be compromised and you've got to you're failing your team and your fan is a leader if you're not keeping those standards uh high and making sure the team achieves them and yet also you can't be the unrelenting task master the slave driver that just smash his people down is this shut up and do it a take but it doesn't mean that leaders can get angry lose their temper or be aggressive toward their people a leader must always deal professionally with subordinates on the team peers leaders up the chain of command customers or clients and personnel and supporting roles outside the immediate team speaking angrily to others is ineffective losing your temper is a sign of weakness the aggression that wins on the battlefield in business or in life is directed not toward people but toward solving problems achieving goals and accomplishing the mission it is also critical to balance aggression with careful thought and analysis to make sure that risks have been assessed and mitigated the dichotomy with the default aggressive mindset is that sometimes hesitation allows a leader to further understand a situation so that he or she can react properly to it rather than immediately respond to enemy fire sometimes the prudent decision is to wait and see how it develops is it a simple reconnaissance by fire is it a faint by the enemy meant to distract from the real attack is the enemy simply trying to lure you into a confined area where they have a superior force waiting to ambush a careful moment of consideration might reveal the enemies true intentions to be overly aggressive without critical thinking is to be reckless that can lead the team into a disaster and put the greater mission in peril to disregard prudent counsel when someone with experience urges caution to dismiss significant threats or to fail to plan for likely contingencies is foolhardy it is bad leadership a chief contributing factor to recklessness comes from what military historians have long referred to as the disease of victory this disease takes place when a few battlefield successes producing overconfidence in a team's own tactical prowess while underestimating the capabilities of its enemy or competitor this is a problem not just for combat leaders but for leaders and teams anywhere in any arena throughout the business world and the civilian sector it is a leaders duty to fight against this disease so that the team despite its success never gets complacent the risking any action must be carefully weighed against the potential rewards of mission success and of course to counter that thought the cost of inaction must be weighed as well as aggressive as leaders must be leaders must be cautious that they are not running to their deaths simply because it is their instinct to take action that I caught a me between aggression and caution must be balanced so be aggressive but never reckless so there's a principle principle laid out and then of course it's followed up with a business example of which there are manifold of businesses where the business gets too aggressive they start getting properties to put more stores into and they build up all this rent that they got to pay every month the next thing you know they have a down month and I think I think we covered that pretty well in sort of in the intro of the book and just a couple paragraphs and you should hit that part that we talked about earlier where it just kind of gives the overall the overall view or the the high level view of the topic of the book every behavior or characteristic carried out by a leader can be taken too far leaders can become too extreme and upset the balance required to effectively lead a team when balance is lost leadership suffers and the teens performance rapidly declines even the fundamental principles of combat leadership and extreme ownership can get out of balance a leader can cover and move too much and step on the toes of other leaders departments or divisions a plan can be too simple and failed to cover likely the contingencies a team could go too far with prioritizing execute resulting in target fixation and loss of situational awareness on newly emerging problems and threats even destabilize command can be taken too far when too much autonomy is given to support leaders who then don't fully understand strategic goals and how to execute and support those goals and this idea continues on but just about everything a leader does leaders must be close with their people but not too close that it becomes a problem they must hold the line with discipline but they must not become tyrannical a leader can even become too extreme with extreme ownership when a leader takes so much ownership of everything in his or her world that members of the team feel there's nothing left for which they can take ownership when this happens team members will execute only at the boss's specific direction without any route ownership or buy in themselves resulting in a team far less capable of overcoming obstacles and accomplish in the mission therefore balance and leadership is crucial to victory you can't say that one enough and you literally can't say that one enough I would think so when you have the same word to many time on times on a page it's it's not good writing and they don't know when to stop they get reckless they get careless they go too hard and so going back to the book here problems aren't going to solve themselves a leader must get aggressive and take action to solve the problems and implement a solution being too passive and waiting for a solution to appear often enables the problem to escalate and get out of control the enemy isn't going to back off the leader must get aggressive and put the enemy in check the good deal isn't going to deliver itself to a company the leader has to go out and make a good deal happen changes and new methodologies in a team are going to implement themselves leaders need to aggressively implement them and aggressive mindset should be the default setting of any leader default aggressive this means that the best leaders the best teams don't wait to act instead understanding the strategic vision or commanders intent they aggressively execute to overcome obstacles capitalize on immediate opportunities accomplish the mission and win rather than passively waiting to be told what to do default aggressive leaders proactively seek out ways to further the strategic mission they understand the commanders intent and where they have authority to do so they execute for decisions that are beyond their pay grade or above their authority default aggressive leaders still make a recommendation of the chain of command to solve problems and execute key tasks to achieve strategic victory in seal platoons and task units we expect this from leaders at every level right down to the front line trooper in charge of just himself and his small piece of the mission but this mentality is crucial to any leader in any team or organization it is just as critical to success in business as on the battlefield aggressive means proactive I find meetings of greater than or equal to eight people far less productive than smaller groups even with structured action oriented agenda is there a maximum amount of people you'd involve in a strategic or tactical planning group I don't think I don't think there is a maximum amount I think it just has to be controlled and you've got to have you've got to have some decentralized command or people understand if there's just a bunch of people that meeting and everyone's kind of speaking in turn and talking over each other you're not going to get anything done so you got to have there's got to be one leader who's run that there's got to be some some you know some other subordinate leaders that and one person has got to drive that meeting and make sure that when someone starts going in down a rabbit hole

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Episode transcript

[00:00:00] This is Jockel Podcast number 138.
[00:00:05] With echo Charles and me, Jockel willing.
[00:00:08] Good evening, I go.
[00:00:09] Good evening.
[00:00:12] Sir, the young seal whispered in a faint voice.
[00:00:18] Come here.
[00:00:20] Our hands were clasped in hand shake.
[00:00:24] On a formal handshake like two businessmen, but palm to palm with thumbs wrapped around
[00:00:30] the back of the hand like an arm wrestling contest, a handshake of brotherhood.
[00:00:38] The young seal was feeling the morphine.
[00:00:41] I saw it as eyes, but he was still there.
[00:00:45] Still conscious and aware.
[00:00:48] He was everything a young man should be smart, brave, athletic, funny, loyal and tough.
[00:00:58] He had been shot in the leg about a half an hour before.
[00:01:03] I found out later that Mikey Montsour, a young seal machine gunner, had run out into heavy
[00:01:08] enemy gunfire and drag this seal out of a war torn street in the Malab district in the city
[00:01:14] of Ramadi, the violent heart of the insurgency in Iraq.
[00:01:20] The wounded seal now lay on a gurney and Charlie Medd, the camp Ramadi field hospital
[00:01:27] where US military surgical teams worked furiously to save the lives of gravely wounded
[00:01:32] troops almost every day.
[00:01:36] The bullet, a mammoth armor piercing 7.62 by 54 millimeter round with a steel core, had entered
[00:01:45] his leg at the lower thigh, ripped the part flesh and bone inside his leg and exited in
[00:01:51] his upper thigh close to the groin.
[00:01:56] It was hard to say if he would keep his leg from the looks of the wound.
[00:02:02] My guess was no.
[00:02:05] He would lose it.
[00:02:09] The wounded seals grip on my hand tightened and he pulled me in, drawing me just inches
[00:02:15] from his face.
[00:02:18] I could tell he wanted to say something to me so I turned and put my ear to his next to his
[00:02:24] mouth.
[00:02:26] I wasn't sure what to expect.
[00:02:30] Was he scared or angry or depressed that he might lose his leg?
[00:02:35] Was he nervous about what might happen next?
[00:02:37] Was he confused?
[00:02:42] He took a breath and then whispered, sir, let me stay.
[00:02:50] Let me stay.
[00:02:51] Please don't make me go home.
[00:02:53] I'll do anything.
[00:02:54] I'll sweep up around the camp.
[00:02:55] I can heal here.
[00:02:57] Please.
[00:02:58] Please.
[00:02:59] Please stay with the task unit.
[00:03:04] There you go.
[00:03:07] Not scared, not angry, not depressed that he might lose his leg.
[00:03:15] Only concerned that he might have to leave our task unit.
[00:03:21] Task unit bruiser.
[00:03:23] Our task unit.
[00:03:25] Our lives.
[00:03:28] This seal was our first significant casualty.
[00:03:33] We had had guys catch some frag on previous operations.
[00:03:36] We had had some very close calls.
[00:03:40] This was the first seal wounded from task unit bruiser whose life would be forever changed
[00:03:45] by a grave combat injury.
[00:03:49] Even if he kept his leg, the damage was so substantial that it didn't seem possible
[00:03:54] he would ever fully regain the extraordinary athleticism he had displayed previously.
[00:04:02] And yet this seal was only concerned that he would let me down.
[00:04:07] Let the task unit down, let his platoon and his team down.
[00:04:16] This was a man.
[00:04:20] This was a true friend of brother.
[00:04:26] This was a hero.
[00:04:29] Young, brave, and without question, more concerned for his friends than for his own life.
[00:04:41] I was moved.
[00:04:45] I felt tears wailing up in my eyes.
[00:04:47] I fought them back, then I swallowed the lump in my throat.
[00:04:55] This was no time to break down.
[00:04:59] I was supposed to be the leader.
[00:05:05] And he needed me to be strong.
[00:05:15] And that right there is from the opening chapter of a book called The Dicotomy of Leadership,
[00:05:26] which is actually a new book.
[00:05:28] And it was written by me and my brother, Lave Babin, and Lave has been on this podcast
[00:05:38] before.
[00:05:39] We wrote extreme ownership together.
[00:05:41] We obviously served in task unit, bruiser together.
[00:05:46] And he was on this podcast.
[00:05:49] He was the first guest.
[00:05:50] He's been the guest the most times.
[00:05:54] He was on 11.
[00:05:55] He was on 34, 65, and 11, 14.
[00:05:58] If you want to go get some background on Lave, but I'm glad to say that he is actually back
[00:06:05] here with us again.
[00:06:07] It's a Lave Babin.
[00:06:09] Welcome back.
[00:06:10] It's going to be back.
[00:06:11] Thanks for having me on.
[00:06:13] Yeah, right home, man.
[00:06:14] And it's good to have you back because we're done writing and editing this book, which
[00:06:21] feels good.
[00:06:22] It does feel good.
[00:06:23] It's been a lot of work, but it's been awesome, too.
[00:06:27] And to be able to tell this kind of stories, I can just read.
[00:06:29] And even though I've read that now a hundred times, it just takes me immediately back
[00:06:35] to that situation.
[00:06:38] And it's just extraordinary.
[00:06:41] We were able to work with some incredible, incredible seals like that young man.
[00:06:45] Yeah, no doubt about it.
[00:06:49] It's weird when you're writing a book.
[00:06:52] And then you're rereading it and rereading it.
[00:06:55] And like you said, every time I would be reading these sections, you just get that, you
[00:07:02] just can't help but go back there.
[00:07:04] You just can't help but go back there.
[00:07:05] And this was definitely there were some parts of this book.
[00:07:07] And I was writing that were definitely hard to write and even hard to edit.
[00:07:14] You know, this, this being wonderful.
[00:07:16] And I'm glad that we're able to share the stories of guys like that.
[00:07:22] And that particular individual, which I don't talk about this in the book, but he kept
[00:07:28] his leg, thank God.
[00:07:30] And he kept getting after it for years and years.
[00:07:37] And he kept training Jiu Jitsu and he's a total stud maybe sometime.
[00:07:41] He'll come on the podcast, who knows?
[00:07:43] But what a great guy.
[00:07:46] Now you also kind of kicked off the book with what I thought was a solid way to kick it off.
[00:07:56] And you should go into that.
[00:07:58] I know we were trying to pick out some good sections here, but I thought the opener that
[00:08:02] you put in, which you opened with the phrase that we've been using quite a bit lately.
[00:08:06] But kick off that introduction to the book, dichotomy leadership.
[00:08:16] Stand by to get some.
[00:08:17] Said someone over the inner squad radio and the calm demeanor, you might expect a
[00:08:22] bit of a flight attendant telling airline passengers to stow their tray tables for landing.
[00:08:27] The street and front of us had emptied of people.
[00:08:30] Like magic, the local citizens had all suddenly disappeared.
[00:08:34] And we knew what that meant.
[00:08:35] Enemy attack was imminent.
[00:08:38] The hair on the back of my neck stood at rigid attention.
[00:08:42] After many eviscious gunfighting Romadi, standby to get some was a running joke that
[00:08:46] eased attention right when we knew trouble was coming.
[00:08:49] The more nonchalantly it could be said, under the diarist of circumstances, the funnier
[00:08:54] it was.
[00:08:56] It was broad daylight as our patrol of seals and Iraqi soldiers made its way on foot
[00:09:01] down the narrow city street, bordered by high concrete walls on both sides.
[00:09:06] Suddenly the world exploded.
[00:09:09] Dozens of bullets snap to the air, each with a sharp, supersonic crack, and smashed into
[00:09:14] the concrete wall next to me with thunderous impact.
[00:09:17] The yards of concrete flew everywhere.
[00:09:20] The heavy valleys of incoming fire sounded like multiple jack-hammers simultaneously
[00:09:24] chewing up the street and the walls all around us.
[00:09:28] We had walked right into an enemy bus saw.
[00:09:32] In surgeon fighters hit us from multiple directions with belt fed machine guns.
[00:09:35] I couldn't see them or where they were shooting from.
[00:09:38] But the number of enemy bullets flying to the air around us was crazy.
[00:09:44] There was no place to hide, with high walls on both sides, the narrow south center of
[00:09:48] a mighty street provided no cover.
[00:09:51] The only thing between us and the enemy machine guns was a single parked car on the
[00:09:55] side of the road some distance up the block and the typical trash thrown about.
[00:10:01] The patrol was in a dual column formation.
[00:10:03] Each column split on opposite sides of the street, hookered close to the walls.
[00:10:08] There was nothing to get behind that could protect us from bullets.
[00:10:11] But we did have something on our side, devastating firepower.
[00:10:15] We fully expected a firefighter on every patrol into this enemy hill neighborhood and
[00:10:20] we rolled in heavy.
[00:10:21] Each squad of eight seals packed at least four belt fed machine guns to suppress any enemy
[00:10:26] attack we encountered.
[00:10:28] When we came under fire, our immediate response with violent and overwhelming gunfire provided
[00:10:33] the only answer.
[00:10:35] Cover and move.
[00:10:36] Having learned through the humbling experience of months of urban combat, task unit
[00:10:40] rooser had had plenty of practice in this fundamental gun fighting principle.
[00:10:45] Within nanoseconds, the seals with a big machine guns up front, unleash the most ruthless
[00:10:50] and lethal barrage of fire you can imagine.
[00:10:53] Despite the intensity and violence of the closer urban combat, I couldn't help but smile.
[00:11:01] Couldn't help but smile.
[00:11:02] Yeah, that's we've said this before, but obviously guys that have been too war usually
[00:11:06] that's the best thing in their life and the best experiences they've found in their lives
[00:11:09] and it gives you that type of feeling right there of where you can't help but smile.
[00:11:15] Then as I just talked about it and as we both know, it's also the worst days of our lives
[00:11:20] are also there and we know that people in the military all feel most of them feel the same
[00:11:26] way that you have your best days and your worst days there.
[00:11:33] It's interesting.
[00:11:36] Over and move, it always comes back to cover and move in these gun fights and you know
[00:11:41] a client we were working with recently and you know remember he switched around, cover
[00:11:46] and move and made it a second and put simple first and it's like well there's a reason
[00:11:53] why that exists that way cover move is first because if you're not working together
[00:11:57] there's a team there's nothing to even keep simple.
[00:11:59] That's not happening.
[00:12:00] You need to start off with cover move teamwork is critical and obviously we just read a
[00:12:07] couple of sort of war story-ish type things but like extreme ownership this book's kind
[00:12:13] of set up the same way as extreme ownership.
[00:12:15] I mean, oh, not kind of it is set up the same way as extreme ownership which is a story
[00:12:21] about combat that reveals a principle and then actually state what the principle is and
[00:12:29] then we use a business example that shows how this principle applies in civilian life and
[00:12:36] usually in the business world.
[00:12:37] In fact, always in the business world that's those examples that we use although we could
[00:12:42] probably do another book that was about how these principles apply to your under nine
[00:12:48] year old soccer team or your relationship with your spouse or your relationship with your
[00:12:55] teenage daughters to of them or your relationship with your teenage son or one of them
[00:13:02] or your relationship with your nine year old daughter or your what do you got three
[00:13:07] and four and three and a two year old.
[00:13:09] Yeah, get some absolutely.
[00:13:10] It could absolutely apply to any of those situations.
[00:13:13] I think that was that was was amazing about extreme ownership to see how people apply
[00:13:18] that in so many aspects of their lives and now I think with the economy leadership it's
[00:13:22] exactly the same thing.
[00:13:23] Yeah.
[00:13:24] And it applies across all aspects of a professional and personal life.
[00:13:28] Well, it was your two because when when you know when I got out of the teams like I
[00:13:31] didn't understand I didn't understand the broad application of what we knew.
[00:13:36] I didn't I mean when I started working with civilian companies then it's like oh well this
[00:13:39] is your problem you don't keep things simple enough or this is your problem you don't
[00:13:42] have decentralized commands so you're trying to control all the decision make it's but as soon
[00:13:46] as we realized and I realized it was like oh it applies to this company what about
[00:13:50] this company and okay what about this company and you just realize okay and that's when
[00:13:53] I started just seeing it everywhere and and I think yeah exactly right the dichotomy
[00:13:58] leadership is the same way and it well like I said it's not just a book of war stories
[00:14:05] the point of the book is to make people better leaders is to give them leadership tools
[00:14:11] including me including you like when you write stuff down you understand it better and
[00:14:18] so you know part of writing these books is like okay how can I capture these lessons
[00:14:23] for myself and of course it's nice that other people can grab them then and look through
[00:14:28] them but like I said it's not it's not just about war stories but to make people better
[00:14:32] leaders and I think I think we covered that pretty well in sort of in the intro of the
[00:14:38] book and just a couple paragraphs and you should hit that part that we talked about earlier
[00:14:44] where it just kind of gives the overall the overall view or the the high level view of the
[00:14:50] topic of the book every behavior or characteristic carried out by a leader can be taken
[00:14:55] too far leaders can become too extreme and upset the balance required to effectively lead
[00:15:01] a team when balance is lost leadership suffers and the teens performance rapidly declines
[00:15:07] even the fundamental principles of combat leadership and extreme ownership can get out
[00:15:13] of balance a leader can cover and move too much and step on the toes of other leaders
[00:15:18] departments or divisions a plan can be too simple and failed to cover likely
[00:15:22] the contingencies a team could go too far with prioritizing execute resulting in target
[00:15:28] fixation and loss of situational awareness on newly emerging problems and threats even
[00:15:34] destabilize command can be taken too far when too much autonomy is given to support
[00:15:38] leaders who then don't fully understand strategic goals and how to execute and support
[00:15:43] those goals and this idea continues on but just about everything a leader does leaders must
[00:15:49] be close with their people but not too close that it becomes a problem they must hold
[00:15:53] the line with discipline but they must not become tyrannical a leader can even become too
[00:15:59] extreme with extreme ownership when a leader takes so much ownership of everything in his
[00:16:04] or her world that members of the team feel there's nothing left for which they can take
[00:16:08] ownership when this happens team members will execute only at the boss's specific direction
[00:16:14] without any route ownership or buy in themselves resulting in a team far less capable
[00:16:20] of overcoming obstacles and accomplish in the mission therefore balance and leadership
[00:16:25] is crucial to victory you can't say that one enough and you literally can't say that one
[00:16:32] enough I would think so when you have the same word to many time on times on a page it's
[00:16:38] it's not good writing right it's not good use the same word over and over again so
[00:16:43] I remember there was times where we would have the word balance like nine times in a paragraph
[00:16:47] but there's it's like hey there's no real other way to say what we're trying to say you got
[00:16:51] a balance these things and it's interesting too as as as you're reading that I'm just thinking
[00:16:56] of all the different situations we've been in in the last few years with echelon front
[00:17:01] where we've seen every single one of these things you know the person that comes up
[00:17:07] hey we want to keep this plan simple and then they don't think of any contingencies or hey
[00:17:11] I'm just trying to cover and move and that means I'm going to do the job for them and
[00:17:14] all of a sudden they're making everyone mad because they're stepping on everyone toes I mean
[00:17:17] decentralized command we're no one knows what's going on because it's okay I'm our hands off
[00:17:22] leader I'm using decentralized command but boss what in God's name you actually want us to do
[00:17:28] so all these things are we've lived we've lived film now and it became really evident
[00:17:34] even though we have you know it's the last chapter the last chapter in extreme ownership is the
[00:17:38] dichotomy leadership and discipline equals freedom and you know we put it in there because we knew
[00:17:43] it was important but now after working with more people over the past few years it's become so obvious
[00:17:49] that this is like such a critical the being able to balance balance balance balance I
[00:17:55] use that word nine times in every paragraph because that's what you have to do if you're a leader
[00:18:00] and and we talk about this too and the opening of in the opening of the book and you know in
[00:18:06] the opening of dichotomy leadership we talk about how one of the problems with the book
[00:18:11] extreme ownership is the title extreme ownership because it made everyone just want to get
[00:18:16] extraordinary with everything I'm going to be super extreme and so that means you know what I'm
[00:18:21] going to do but get extreme on our own everything and we that was one of the earliest things that I
[00:18:25] started noticing was people that took so much ownership so on the leader I'm in charge and I take
[00:18:30] so much ownership of everything that everyone below me in the chain of command there's nothing
[00:18:35] left for them to own and and all of a sudden they're just feeling like hey they're just along
[00:18:38] for the ride and they're just going to do what they're told to do and all their initiatives gone and
[00:18:42] they don't they don't even have they don't they don't it's not that they don't believe but they
[00:18:47] just think okay well it's going to do it what we're told so it's not their plan and so they're going
[00:18:51] to do the best their ability but it's not theirs they don't own it so all those things that you
[00:18:56] just talked about are our things that we've we've now seen and there are things that I struggle with
[00:19:01] you know I think there's there are things that you struggle I think we each of us struggle with them
[00:19:04] it's the hardest part about leadership and as we've seen that over and over again that you know
[00:19:09] that brief introduction that we gave it in chapter 12 of extreme ownership you know introduce the
[00:19:15] concept but this dives so much deeper into those challenges and I think that's what what I
[00:19:20] know about this book is it answers the the questions to that that we get most often about
[00:19:26] about how to balance that because that's the hardest part and it's so difficult to do and I
[00:19:31] remember it our first master there was a question about you know can you take you know can
[00:19:35] extreme ownership go too far I actually answer the question well I think if you're properly
[00:19:40] understanding what extreme ownership means no but you actually answer that as I was like yes
[00:19:45] you can take too much ownership and I think that's what people take that is well I've got to do
[00:19:50] everything like no you you're responsible for everything that's what extreme ownership means but
[00:19:54] certainly you can you can absolutely take too much ownership where no one's doing anything and I
[00:19:58] think we explained that pretty well in this book and this this book was written just like
[00:20:03] extreme ownership that economy leadership was written to help leaders as a reference manual and
[00:20:08] and if it's something that you know if I see pages like we see so many cops of extreme ownership
[00:20:13] I mean I want to see pages that are underlined that are highlighted they're tab that are
[00:20:16] they're utilized by leaders and and if we've done that and this is a manual that helps
[00:20:22] leaders lead better and be better people and lead better teams that then this will have
[00:20:26] a accomplishes mission you know what's cool is is I think it's very similar to the fact that
[00:20:30] with extreme ownership right with that attitude with that attitude when you get in that mindset
[00:20:36] you start seeing it everywhere and you start when someone makes an excuse you recognize
[00:20:42] me that you go that's an excuse like echo is giving you a hard time about your your lack of a
[00:20:47] haircut and and you know you were you were saying that I was my fault and we're laughing about it right
[00:20:54] and and of course I was I was like well you know I should have told you you know there's
[00:20:58] gonna be a timeline and you need to get haircut before but you know we're joking about it but
[00:21:03] in the same time that we're joking about it the fact that like you brought that echo that up
[00:21:08] is a real thing and for us to be sitting here joking about it means that we actually think about it
[00:21:12] we actually every time you know you know laves making it a joke and excuse like oh juggling he's
[00:21:18] it's like we all know and it's it's it's a it's a it's syncs in and it becomes really like for
[00:21:25] someone to make an actual excuse becomes really really hard and I think for me that's one thing that
[00:21:32] I've benefited over the last few years of seeing other people what you it's it becomes when you're
[00:21:38] aware of it when you're aware of it the balance becomes much much easier to see and that's what
[00:21:43] I think is gonna be very helpful about this book is people won't know that they're out of balance
[00:21:47] that's the biggest problem a big problem is they don't know they're thinking my my guys are
[00:21:51] taking any initiative what's wrong with them and it's like well your micro managing them you've
[00:21:55] gone too far in that direction you've gone too far in controlling everything that they do they think
[00:22:00] that that's they think that if you want them to do something that you're gonna tell them to do it
[00:22:04] and other than that they're gonna sit there and stand by a wait for orders and it's like no
[00:22:08] so and you if you don't understand that you can be out of balance then you won't recognize that
[00:22:14] but if you know hey my guys aren't taking in any initiative I wonder what's wrong with them
[00:22:20] well actually maybe it's me maybe it's me and maybe I am micro managing them so much
[00:22:25] that I've beaten the initiative out of them so what I need to do is back off a little bit and
[00:22:31] we'll give them some leeway and give them some ownership of what they're doing and let them
[00:22:35] make some decisions down there and if if you do that then you start seeing it come back and you
[00:22:39] start seeing them take initiative and you feel good and that's a you know one of the chapters in
[00:22:43] the book is actually that right there where I talk about my first deployment to Iraq where I first
[00:22:48] got to Iraq my first time in combat I was just basically wanted to own everything because that was
[00:22:54] my last my personal idea I come to take ownership of this and then I realized my guys
[00:22:58] I'm not gonna all the you know they're not really taking the initiative I wanted to take
[00:23:01] well why is that it's because I'm micro managing them and finally luckily we got over a
[00:23:07] wound with operations we had so many operations to conduct and I was like I can't manage all these
[00:23:12] I can't oversee everything that's happening and I had to cut the guys loose and as soon as I
[00:23:17] caught a loose and said hey you got this and you got that and you got the other thing the guys
[00:23:21] just started stepping up and running everything like I knew like like of course they could because
[00:23:25] they're freaking highly capable guys and they started kicking ass and I realized like oh I don't
[00:23:30] even barely even need to be here right barely even need to be here whereas in the beginning I
[00:23:34] thought oh this is all I'll if I wasn't for me you know and I'm only talking about a period of a
[00:23:39] few weeks of me trying to micro manage everything so I think what's gonna be beneficial about this
[00:23:44] book is that people will see how they can get out of balance and and they'll also see that that
[00:23:50] balance pertains to just about everything and every trait that you have that's positive as a
[00:23:58] leader you can overdue and you can turn it into a negative trait if you go too far
[00:24:05] see you're going to watch out for that you can definitely got to watch out for that it's easy
[00:24:09] for us to see you know we always talk about the attachment attachment so important and for us with you
[00:24:14] know throughout coming to Ashland front it's worth working with these leaders and working with these
[00:24:17] companies you you can see it you know it just it just stands out so obvious that someone is you know
[00:24:23] they're trying to cover move by helping another department and yet they're stepping on people's
[00:24:27] toes and they're pissing people off and you know like why are you you're trying to do my job and make
[00:24:31] me look bad and they get there like well I'm trying to cover move just like you don't me
[00:24:35] I'm just trying to help you and then you're saying well you have to be careful about that you have to
[00:24:40] balance it so once you know it is the absolute most common problem we see all the time and even
[00:24:45] for you know folks that have read extreme ownership you know three or four you know multiple times
[00:24:50] that that are really trying hard to be better leaders they struggle with that and this is
[00:24:55] something to help them and help leaders everywhere and you know and we wrote the book too so that
[00:25:00] it could be read it's a follow on certainly a sequel you gave me a chance to correct that
[00:25:06] yeah why would you say what do you say on the you were talking about jaws to your dog
[00:25:10] yeah podcast one fourteen and I said it's not a sequel it's a standalone book but it absolutely
[00:25:15] is a sequel I'm a follow on book it expands on the concepts however we did write it so that that it
[00:25:20] is a standalone book and you can read you can read you can read if you have if you can read
[00:25:25] dichotomy without having red extreme ownership you'll certainly understand it and be able to
[00:25:29] play yeah but you'd understand the concepts better if you read extreme ownership first no question
[00:25:36] and then you jump into dichotomy which yeah like you said can you read it alone sure you can
[00:25:43] I guess there's echo we need like some kind of a movie reference here like yeah I'm thinking
[00:25:49] term could you see Terminator two yes on its own right but you will you will get more out of it
[00:25:56] if you saw Terminator one first yeah correct same with around see look at me just nailing
[00:26:01] the right year nailing yeah so rambo right first blood part two same deal where you could watch
[00:26:06] just rambo and be pretty pretty happy about it hold on now my problem with that is we know that
[00:26:11] Terminator two is equivalent in quality to Terminator one correct correct correct yeah right
[00:26:19] may I think so okay two is awesome except are we saying that we say that Rambo two which I don't
[00:26:27] even think I've seen first blood part two yeah I don't is are we saying that's the same level of
[00:26:31] quality is Rambo for one you get to be careful there that's what I think we're actually
[00:26:36] I mean I'm not saying that's really jaws two which jaws one which is a masterpiece right
[00:26:43] masterpiece jaws jaws one jaws time called jaws one she's called jaws right jaws two
[00:26:49] problematic we got issues so what I'm saying is we're more like the Terminator scenario
[00:26:56] got you or aliens I was gonna say aliens is an aliens right you can totally watch that movie
[00:27:00] stand alone but obviously gives you some more context if you watch the first one but I think the
[00:27:04] second one's actually better yeah then the first one do you feel like do you feel like dichotomies better
[00:27:09] I actually do I actually do feel I feel it's better I mean I'm interested to hear what readers think
[00:27:16] about it but I I think that it's more useful and applicable to to leaders I mean we have three
[00:27:23] years additional leadership experience and not only evaluating our experiences in combat and in
[00:27:31] the seal teens but but now working with hundreds of leaders and I mean really we're talking
[00:27:37] in you know a couple a hundred plus companies that we've worked with in that time
[00:27:43] easily you know between just you mean you probably not that's not even counting some of the other
[00:27:46] members of our team so we've seen this in in a whole lot of different scenarios and I think
[00:27:52] it really addresses the it's a direct application to the problems that we see so I'm pretty all
[00:27:58] for one I'm looking forward to to readers feedback on was it easier for you to write
[00:28:02] yes yeah I mean for me it definitely was and I say easier just because we we well we became
[00:28:10] better writers as we wrote extreme ownership extreme ownership the first version that we did
[00:28:17] extreme ownership was in the third person and I forget why we even did that but we was about
[00:28:23] these two guys named life in jacco it was about I think I kind of forget I think it was a recommendation
[00:28:29] that came to us from the literature the publisher whatever and we know then we finally had to say
[00:28:34] yeah we're not doing that yeah you know that friend of yours that talks about themselves
[00:28:38] in the third person that you make fun of yeah we're not going to do that yeah so and it's weird
[00:28:44] because there's the book there's there's a couple books I've done in the podcast clay pages
[00:28:49] is the St. Lowe by Glover Johns who's the guy for that you know hack worth wrote about
[00:28:54] he wrote the book clay pages that clay pages as they say Lowe and it's in the third person
[00:28:59] about a guy named major johns and it's him and he writes a thing in the beginning and says hey
[00:29:05] I didn't feel comfortable talking about myself so I did a wrote it this way it's like okay
[00:29:09] and the the only thing I would say that's cool about it you could you could kind of give an outside
[00:29:13] view but the thing that's not cool about it is you couldn't be I was thinking this right now which is
[00:29:18] kind of what I want to hear and that's why I normally cover books that are first person
[00:29:23] people that actually experience it but he's a guy that did a couple other people I've
[00:29:28] when you're when you're Glover Johns though and you're your David Hackworth CDADD you can
[00:29:33] know you can do whatever you want to do it you want for sure now that's another part that's
[00:29:40] again you know we've we've in this book we set it up the same way with combat story principle
[00:29:48] followed by a business example but one thing that I think and this is feedback that that we both
[00:29:55] got that I certainly got was that for what for because the consequences are so high in combat it
[00:30:02] makes the principle very clear and even though people might know well I've never been in combat
[00:30:09] but they understand that if we're not working together as a team doing cover move we will die
[00:30:14] and so when they understand that they go okay now that means if I'm not working with the other
[00:30:20] department then we're gonna lose money or we're not gonna complete our mission or we're not
[00:30:24] gonna take market share yes so I think one of the strongest points of of extreme ownership that we
[00:30:30] did again is the combat stories to to sort of introduce the principles and plus it's cool to hear cool
[00:30:39] stories like that but one of them I think chapter three another another one that we pulled out
[00:30:45] that said it'd be good to sort of cover this one real quick is you opened up chapter three
[00:30:50] with a little a little bit of get some I guess we could say and get that one man I want to I want
[00:30:57] to hear that one I want to hear the Texas Batman get crazy in in Ramadi in 2006 this is bringing
[00:31:03] back some awesome memories here bright orange tracer streaked like laser beams just a few feet
[00:31:10] over our heads each supersonic bullet zipping past with a thunderous crack holy shit I thought
[00:31:16] as we quickly duck down behind the roof wall those are friendly shooting at us I looked over at Dave
[00:31:22] Burke who crouched down nearby like the other seals on the roof with us we tried to stay low enough
[00:31:27] not to get our head shot off Dave looked back at me and shook his head with a smile mixed humor
[00:31:32] and concern that's not cool they've said the understatement of the year Dave Burke was a
[00:31:38] US Marine Corps major a fighter pilot by trade he had been the lead instructor at the legendary
[00:31:43] US Navy fighter weapon school better known as top gun Dave had left the cockpit behind a volunteer
[00:31:49] to serve on the ground as a forward air controller in the most dangerous place in Iraq Ramadi
[00:31:55] he led a supporting arms liaison team or salt attached to the US Marine Corps fifth air
[00:32:00] naval gun fire liaison company Dave and his twelve Marines from salt six a company Charlie
[00:32:06] Batoon to coordinate with the aircraft supporting this operation in the skies overhead they patrolled
[00:32:11] him with us on foot to spearhead the operation ahead of the US Army and Iraqi Army units a US tank
[00:32:18] 200 yards away had fired a burst from its heavy machine gun directly over our position it was
[00:32:24] friendly fire a blue on blue in US military parlance to be killed or horribly wounded by enemy fire
[00:32:31] was one thing to be killed by our own american forces was something much worse that was way too close
[00:32:37] for comfort I thought in the seconds following as a crouches lowest possible behind the low
[00:32:42] concrete wall that was our only means of cover we had to shut that down immediately and alert the tank
[00:32:48] that we were friendly forces to do so I had to contact the specific tank commander directly via radio
[00:32:56] and tell them to cease fire the tanks heavy machine gun was a 50 caliber M2 Browning
[00:33:02] known as the Maadouce it packed a hell of a punch and US military service since 1933 it
[00:33:09] improvement its deadly effectiveness in every american war since World War I each massive
[00:33:14] round could take a man's head clean off or remove the bulk of his chest cavity it could also
[00:33:20] punch right through concrete walls like the one we were hiding behind we had just received a fully
[00:33:25] automatic burst of probably a dozen rounds in a matter of seconds if I didn't shut down the fire
[00:33:30] immediately and let the US tank know we were friendly it could mean horrible wounds in death for a
[00:33:35] number of us blue on blue it's even an extreme ownership we talked there's three episodes of blue on
[00:33:44] blue potential or blue the app with with Chris potentially shooting the american trooper that was in a
[00:33:51] in a building the Bradley getting ready to light up stoneers guys and also the blue on blue
[00:33:59] that the book starts off with there's it's interesting and a reality of war that we talk about
[00:34:06] blue on blue a lot in that urban environment the other thing I noticed is did I don't mean to
[00:34:14] accuse you here like you know on this in this format but each massive round could take a man's head
[00:34:21] clean off is that not just jacked from clean eastwood right there come on man that's 44
[00:34:26] magnum that's dirty hairy right I can either confirm to that you look at you there's uh
[00:34:33] that did you consult with echo for you know party writing here and the echo echo and I we see
[00:34:39] out of the movie quotes there was a little there was a use of parlance in there too that
[00:34:44] uh in the parlance in the parlance on our times you threw a little little big libowski in there
[00:34:50] that we had previously looked out that was a crazy situation and we were I thought we'd done
[00:34:54] everything what was so crazy about that situation for us is I thought we'd done everything in our
[00:34:59] power to mitigate the risk of that and let everybody know where we were a marked our position you know
[00:35:04] talking coordinate with people and and to still get shot at by friendlies you know they uh
[00:35:11] that was that was crazy David I was looking at you like man this this is good this isn't good at all
[00:35:16] so it was it was a I was a foam of that radio trying to get and and talk to them immediately
[00:35:21] and thank God as we talked about on previous podcasts you'd come down on us to be able to use
[00:35:28] to be able to learn how to use those radios ourselves and not just rely on the radio and
[00:35:32] and I was able to swap over and and make direct cops that take and and get them to cease fire
[00:35:38] and that's one of the things that I like completely held the line on and and you know and you
[00:35:42] talk about in the book how there's some other things where I allowed a little bit of slack and you actually
[00:35:47] you actually kind of capture that in a couple pages later that I pulled up here it's a middle of page
[00:35:55] 76 punch through that little section right there and I think it's a it's a good good kind of
[00:36:03] captures what we're talking about in terms of and you were saying this to me early earlier today you're like
[00:36:09] everyone thinks jocca would just be like okay you're gonna shut up do what I tell you to do and it's like
[00:36:13] well actually there's some things I'm gonna tell you that but there's something it's gonna
[00:36:18] there's gonna be a balance well you actually you never said you shut up and do do us do what I tell you to do
[00:36:24] right I'm sure you probably wanted to but many many times yeah and still do I'm I'm sure
[00:36:30] often but there is it's not effective it's never effective to do that and I think so many leaders
[00:36:36] that want to just you know why won't they just do what I tell them to do it's it's people get really
[00:36:40] frustrated by that but obviously there you got to hold a line you absolutely have to hold a line you know
[00:36:44] and if you'd have a linen on us being able to learn how to use a radio I mean that could have
[00:36:48] cost lives right there another verse around comes to the roof wall are we take a main gun
[00:36:53] round now you're talking the the cannon on the tank the 120 millimeter main gun round you know
[00:36:58] just smash through both sides of walls you know it would it would have been absolute catastrophic
[00:37:03] those guys think you know they're under attack they're shooting back at what they think is
[00:37:06] enemy that didn't realize it and it's not like they were they were not ready to use those main
[00:37:11] gun rounds if they had to they were they were putting some buildings down over there for sure
[00:37:16] and that's and that's the hard part right is that you've got to hold a line and there's standards
[00:37:19] that can't be compromised and you've got to you're failing your team and your fan is a leader if you're
[00:37:24] not keeping those standards uh high and making sure the team achieves them and yet also you can't
[00:37:31] be the unrelenting task master the slave driver that just smash his people down is this
[00:37:36] shut up and do it a take yeah this is something that I bring up a lot when I'm working with companies
[00:37:39] is like do you actually want people to do it to do whatever you don't do and the the immediate
[00:37:47] answers like well yeah I just want everyone to shut up and do what I tell them to do well the
[00:37:50] actual answer is no you don't want that if you're a good leader what you want is if I tell
[00:37:56] life hey go take that building over there and you say to me no and I say why not you say well
[00:38:03] there's an idea in the front yard and we'll all get killed if we go there I'm going okay thank you
[00:38:08] now as opposed to you you're you're just going to blindly do whatever I tell you to do well then
[00:38:12] that's going to be problematic so there's a balance in this too and and that's something that we
[00:38:17] talk about all the time but to surround you don't want to surround yourself with the S-men you
[00:38:20] don't want to surround yourself with the S-men and we I've seen plenty of companies where the
[00:38:26] boss man has surrounded himself with the S-men and they yes themselves into the grave because
[00:38:31] there the everyone's just a green oh yep we'll do that that sounds like a great plan boss oh yeah
[00:38:35] yes boss that sounds like a great plan boss and and the next thing you know someone along the
[00:38:40] line should have said hey boss that doesn't make any sense hey boss like oh we got a good
[00:38:45] relationship with these people over here but you know what they're raising their price a little bit
[00:38:49] we don't want to work with them anymore okay well let's think about that you know that that that's
[00:38:55] one of our biggest suppliers do we really want to mix our relationship with our biggest supplier
[00:39:00] does that make sense well you know they're getting in our face now a yes man will be like that's
[00:39:04] right boss we don't take no crap from no one who's through those guys but maybe you want someone
[00:39:08] below you in the chain of commences hey boss let's think about this that's our biggest supplier
[00:39:13] if we cut them off and demand goes up we won't be able to service our customers that could be
[00:39:18] problematic wouldn't you agree how but we negotiate with them so there's my point is you don't just
[00:39:24] want people you don't want to be surrounded by yes man you want people are going to question
[00:39:28] you you want people are going to be that's why like you so much life because you you question
[00:39:32] you you have no problem question you would have said it's all good push you back yeah the
[00:39:37] humble not passive but I I've never never been passive but I think this this here page 76 that's a
[00:39:45] good that's a good little wait a capture what we're talking about as our reflected upon joccos
[00:39:51] demonstration of a leader's responsibility to ensure standards are maintained I thought about
[00:39:56] the times of my career when I failed to do so as a young leader I knew there were times we
[00:40:00] needed to improve our performance do another run to the kill house where we practice close quarters
[00:40:05] combat or add an additional rehearsal to ensure we were fully prepared yet in those moments
[00:40:11] I sometimes hadn't held the line I hadn't pushed the team hard enough any additional work
[00:40:16] assigned to the team was going to get pushback and generate complaints and there were times
[00:40:20] when I let things slide confusing the idea of taking care of your people with allowing them not
[00:40:26] to work as hard but in the end that resulted in mediocre performance and the team never got better
[00:40:32] never held each other accountable this was a failure of leadership my leadership I also
[00:40:38] recognized the dichotomy there were other times when I was overbearing I insisted on doing things
[00:40:43] a certain way because it was my way or harped on trivial matters that were strategically
[00:40:49] unimportant thinking I was doing right by holding the line it caused unnecessary friction
[00:40:55] stifled growth and inhibited junior leaders on the team from stepping up it prevented us from functioning
[00:41:01] properly with effective decentralized command I had seen and worked for numerous leaders throughout my
[00:41:06] navy career who had been overbearing and it wasn't the way I wanted to lead some of them imposed
[00:41:12] harsh discipline screened at their people and crushed them morale of the team no one wanted to follow
[00:41:18] them they might accomplish an immediate task but in the long run the team's growth was smothered
[00:41:24] often their negative example stood starkly in my mind I never want to be a leader like that
[00:41:31] there you go the tyrannical leader that's run around screaming at everyone and and like you just
[00:41:38] said they'll get some little tasks accomplished and they actually think that what's horrible is
[00:41:43] they get some little task accomplished because they screamed in yelled and it reinforces that behavior
[00:41:48] and so they become even more tyrannical and yell and scream even more and they never see the fact
[00:41:53] that acting that way it'll get you a little short term thing done but you'll never get everything
[00:41:58] you can out of people you never get everything you can out of somebody that you've beaten in
[00:42:02] this mission you're they're not going to perform to their fullest potential and capability and
[00:42:07] that's just where you're going to be that's just where you're going to be the other thing
[00:42:13] it takes this is this is one of those things like if you've got something that's hard to do right
[00:42:20] you've got something that the team has gone to do that's hard to do and you're wishy-washy about it
[00:42:26] you know it's the right thing to do but you're wishy-washy about how you approach the team with doing it
[00:42:32] it's not going to happen it's just not going to happen I'm reading another book right now
[00:42:36] by a guy that was in Vietnam with Hacworth and he's saying just he would just lay down the
[00:42:42] law like Hacworth is like no we're doing this this is what we're going to do this is how it's going to be
[00:42:45] and that's that's what it is you know I've got so many examples from my career but I'll tell you
[00:42:53] really kind of a lame one but it's it's worth telling so back good noon dude guess what we used to
[00:43:00] do in the teams we used to drink beer a lot of it and that was kind of like hey you know we're
[00:43:04] we're in the steels you know we're beer drink and frog men and that's cool and I was in a
[00:43:11] seal platoon where we drink a lot even more than a normal seal platoon which is what you
[00:43:18] know what you put you in the running for a lot and this is back in the 90s there's no
[00:43:23] we're going on and I've said this before kind of the way that we proved ourselves because there's
[00:43:28] a certain level of sacrifice you have to make to prove to your teammates that you're like you're
[00:43:32] willing to sacrifice well one of the ways that you can sacrifice is you can just drink a lot
[00:43:36] and prove that you can go all night go hard and still get up the next day and so I was in a
[00:43:41] seal platoon where we drank a lot just about everyone in the chain of command except for the the
[00:43:47] commander the OIC but everyone else you know we drank hard and you know we we've partied in whatever
[00:43:54] and we were a ship board we were an argue platoon so we were deploying on board a ship
[00:44:00] and when we were getting ready to deploy on the ship it was kind of like oh well you know we'll
[00:44:08] just because you're not allowed to drink any alcohol on the ship you're not allowed to have
[00:44:11] any alcohol you're not allowed drinking alcohol you after 90 days it's see you can get a beer day
[00:44:16] they give 45 or 45 or back when I was in the sea get you get one beer 45 days so they gave us
[00:44:24] it two beers but I will say they gave us fosters so they were big oil cans right but you're
[00:44:30] living large yeah I did two two beer days in one deployment anyways you're not allowed other
[00:44:36] than that you're not allowed to drink that's the rules and so I think it wasn't like we openly
[00:44:42] discussed like how we gonna smuggle beer or maybe we did a little bit but our bosses came down
[00:44:46] to like yeah well there's no drinking on no drinking on the ship and we were like okay those
[00:44:51] little they just came down and put the rules down like hey no drinking on the ship and I had
[00:44:56] respect for my off my platoon commander at the time had respect for my platoon chief at the time
[00:45:03] and they came down and said yeah well there's no drinking on ship so don't even think about it
[00:45:08] we're like okay cool that's the lock came down and we just got on board we just got on board with it
[00:45:12] whereas if it would have been well you know a little bit of wishy washing us us young E3's E4's
[00:45:19] and E5's if they would have been remotely wishy washing we didn't like oh cool you guys go drink
[00:45:24] whatever you want just don't let us see it or whatever and that would have been bad because eventually
[00:45:28] guess what you put a bunch of seals on a ship with with booze and you leave them on there for
[00:45:33] multiple days it's see months it's see well they're gonna have an incident of some kind they're
[00:45:37] gonna get a fight they're gonna throw up somewhere they're gonna you know some just dumb stuff
[00:45:41] it's gonna get to the highest level of attention it's gonna be a total disaster so the idea of
[00:45:47] actually just stepping up and holding the line and I'll tell you what I learned as a leader
[00:45:52] is it's liberating to do that it's liberating to say hey look here's the rules and and you know
[00:45:58] I did this with the fact of when we got back to our body we got to our body and they told us
[00:46:02] we had to work with Iraqi soldiers and everyone was kind of him and it honed about having to work with Iraqi
[00:46:06] soldiers and I told you guys don't even submit a concept of operations without Iraqi soldiers don't even
[00:46:12] submit it because we're not doing it and you guys were like okay got it yeah it is super liberating
[00:46:19] I think that's the you know one of the things that that I you know that I learned from you as we
[00:46:24] started working together I mean and I talked to be about this all the time I talked about on the podcast
[00:46:29] before but it was the kind of things that you know you probably should be doing but for whatever
[00:46:34] reason you are and and you know for you could just put it perspective for me like it's very black and
[00:46:38] why not like no if you're not if you're not holding the line on these things that are important
[00:46:42] and pushing your team to perform with the highest standard or make it sure they're not going to do
[00:46:46] something it's going to get them in trouble or cause massive issues not only for us but for the entire
[00:46:50] you know not on for our unit but the entire seal teams then then that's you're failing them as a
[00:46:55] leader you you've got to hold the line on that stuff you've got to and and it is very liberating
[00:47:00] to say oh check okay that's the way it is and I think that ambiguity is very frustrating for people
[00:47:05] but they don't know what's right you don't know what's wrong they can get away with stuff
[00:47:08] yeah that's what I was going to say but the people below you and the chain of command they
[00:47:12] get frustrated because they're like what was that mean and they're going to push it to the envelope
[00:47:16] but they just got got away with it over here but that guy didn't you know I mean that's yeah those are
[00:47:20] the kind of things where there needs to there's got to be a standard you got to hold that standard and
[00:47:24] it's I it the team is so much better off when you do that and certainly bruiser absolutely was
[00:47:30] and and this is one of those things where then people think well juggle always holds the line and
[00:47:37] there would be no slack whatsoever right no fucking slack right that's how we roll and it's like
[00:47:42] hmm actually there is slack and there's times where you give slack I mean I mean I always talk about
[00:47:47] and we always talk about how I was super strict about uniforms right like hey we're going to
[00:47:52] wear uniforms no patches all this stuff right we talk about that stuff all the time but when someone
[00:47:55] wasn't when we when we were when we were in our camp I didn't care what you wore if you were
[00:48:01] going to be interacting with the army of the Marine Corps I didn't care what you wore at all I mean
[00:48:06] I barely put on a shirt when we were on bed right I mean I'd be sitting in the tactical operations
[00:48:10] that are let me flip flops yeah flip flops and that's it yeah it brown t-shirt and sometimes yeah
[00:48:16] sometimes and and so I didn't I'm not holding line I'm not getting crazy because guess what that's
[00:48:22] not important if I would have been running around policing up people's uniforms inside of our camp
[00:48:28] which was just us man I would have wasted a bunch of leadership capital and frustrated everyone
[00:48:36] and then guess what when I tell them hey you got to learn how to program your radio that is that is
[00:48:44] explained with the same importance as hey you got to blouse your boots when you're inside our camp
[00:48:49] that's the wrong message to send so that's why this that's why I wrote this book because this is
[00:48:54] about balance you've got to be able to balance when to hold the line what's important what's
[00:48:58] worth holding line for and what things do you go okay you know what you know what lathe you
[00:49:03] guys want to do it that way that's cool go do it and that's what you need to learn that balance
[00:49:08] that balance is hard it's hard to do I think that again I think the awareness of it I think the
[00:49:17] awareness of it and I don't really know when I recognize the awareness of it I mean I know
[00:49:24] like when when Flynn Flynn puts up the slides of like the juggle breathe from back in the day
[00:49:30] I talked about the dichotomy leadership back then I'm surprised I even knew what dichotomy meant
[00:49:37] I literally forgot what I'm looking for the brief I looked at I remember what I'm talking about
[00:49:41] but it's one of those things I recognized it I saw it and I could definitely see it but
[00:49:48] now and just the more we work with companies even when I was in the teams the more I was working with
[00:49:52] the see-up tune you'd see when a guy was like here's a good example you know when a guy talks too much
[00:49:58] when you have a leader that just talks all the time just doesn't stop he always has something
[00:50:02] else he he won't let anyone else get the last word it's always that guy's people stop listening to
[00:50:07] him because he's talking all the time and it's like hey I got a good idea well why don't you be
[00:50:12] quiet for a little while and I hated to have to tell that to somebody because they get super self-conscious
[00:50:18] but you know I'm usually phrased it a different way like hey you should you should let your
[00:50:22] guys run a little bit you know let them let them get the last word and let it's going to give
[00:50:26] them more ownership of what you're doing if when they get done saying and that's how we're going
[00:50:30] to do it tonight and then this guy chimes in and you know what when we do it that way and you're
[00:50:35] like oh you don't need to say it again you think you don't need to double tap guys would say this
[00:50:41] debriefing I'm going to double tap that but that's already been tapped don't double tap it
[00:50:46] we're going to triple tap this thing we used to have a symbol if you can't see this here listen
[00:50:50] we put our two whatever two pea signs and touch your thumbs together and it's like four legs
[00:50:56] sticking up in the air that's a dead horse that's the symbol for dead horse bro you don't need to
[00:51:00] say this again it's dead horse quit beating it to death wait what is double what is tap double tap
[00:51:06] double tap well when you shoot a target you shoot it once and then what you normally do is you shoot
[00:51:10] a twice boom boom and so it's called a double tap so go back a fast mobile so if I was
[00:51:15] doing briefing you and and I was like echo you know you need to keep your shop groups a little bit
[00:51:22] tighter on the next run cool you got it and I said well the double tap on that you know you really
[00:51:28] need to work on the shop yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah
[00:51:31] I'm saying the same thing kind of like I second that notion it kind of thing it is but if you said that
[00:51:36] if you said I second that you could leave it there right but if you said I second that because you
[00:51:43] really need to tighten up your groups because your groups are a little bit dispersed around the
[00:51:47] target area and that's going to be bad we all know it's bad bro we all know it's bad bro
[00:51:50] you know we all know it's thing thing office space TPS report yeah I understand clear now and
[00:51:58] now all that being said so it's cool I think again having the combat stories let some of these things
[00:52:05] sign and that's a good example right there you're talking first person what you're actually thinking
[00:52:10] which I think is powerful but it's good also to to outline the principles and that's what we did
[00:52:19] so here's one of the principles we outlined and this is an important one because
[00:52:25] man we got because we talk about being aggressive as a matter of fact we have T shirts it's a
[00:52:29] default aggressive right like we're not playing around being aggressive and what does that mean
[00:52:33] that means that we get some people in the in the military and in the civilian sector that we say
[00:52:40] D default mode aggressive they go default mode aggressive and they don't know when to stop they get
[00:52:44] reckless they get careless they go too hard and so going back to the book here
[00:52:51] problems aren't going to solve themselves a leader must get aggressive and take action to solve
[00:52:58] the problems and implement a solution being too passive and waiting for a solution to appear
[00:53:04] often enables the problem to escalate and get out of control the enemy isn't going to back off
[00:53:09] the leader must get aggressive and put the enemy in check the good deal isn't going to deliver
[00:53:18] itself to a company the leader has to go out and make a good deal happen changes and new
[00:53:25] methodologies in a team are going to implement themselves leaders need to aggressively implement them
[00:53:32] and aggressive mindset should be the default setting of any leader default aggressive
[00:53:37] this means that the best leaders the best teams don't wait to act instead understanding the
[00:53:45] strategic vision or commanders intent they aggressively execute to overcome obstacles
[00:53:50] capitalize on immediate opportunities accomplish the mission and win rather than
[00:53:57] passively waiting to be told what to do default aggressive leaders proactively seek out ways
[00:54:03] to further the strategic mission they understand the commanders intent and where they have authority
[00:54:08] to do so they execute for decisions that are beyond their pay grade or above their authority
[00:54:14] default aggressive leaders still make a recommendation of the chain of command to solve
[00:54:19] problems and execute key tasks to achieve strategic victory in seal platoons and task units
[00:54:26] we expect this from leaders at every level right down to the front line trooper in charge of just
[00:54:32] himself and his small piece of the mission but this mentality is crucial to any leader in any
[00:54:39] team or organization it is just as critical to success in business as on the battlefield
[00:54:48] aggressive means proactive but it doesn't mean that leaders can get angry lose their temper or be
[00:54:57] aggressive toward their people a leader must always deal professionally with subordinates on the team
[00:55:04] peers leaders up the chain of command customers or clients and personnel and supporting roles
[00:55:09] outside the immediate team speaking angrily to others is ineffective losing your temper is a sign
[00:55:17] of weakness the aggression that wins on the battlefield in business or in life is directed not
[00:55:24] toward people but toward solving problems achieving goals and accomplishing the mission it is also
[00:55:32] critical to balance aggression with careful thought and analysis to make sure that risks have been
[00:55:39] assessed and mitigated the dichotomy with the default aggressive mindset is that sometimes
[00:55:47] hesitation allows a leader to further understand a situation so that he or she can react properly to it
[00:55:56] rather than immediately respond to enemy fire sometimes the prudent decision is to wait and see how
[00:56:02] it develops is it a simple reconnaissance by fire is it a faint by the enemy meant to distract from the
[00:56:10] real attack is the enemy simply trying to lure you into a confined area where they have a
[00:56:15] superior force waiting to ambush a careful moment of consideration might reveal the enemies true
[00:56:23] intentions to be overly aggressive without critical thinking is to be reckless that can lead the
[00:56:30] team into a disaster and put the greater mission in peril to disregard prudent counsel when someone
[00:56:37] with experience urges caution to dismiss significant threats or to fail to plan for likely contingencies
[00:56:44] is foolhardy it is bad leadership a chief contributing factor to recklessness comes from what military
[00:56:53] historians have long referred to as the disease of victory this disease takes place when a few
[00:57:00] battlefield successes producing overconfidence in a team's own tactical prowess while underestimating
[00:57:07] the capabilities of its enemy or competitor this is a problem not just for combat leaders but for
[00:57:14] leaders and teams anywhere in any arena throughout the business world and the civilian sector it is
[00:57:21] a leaders duty to fight against this disease so that the team despite its success never gets complacent
[00:57:30] the risking any action must be carefully weighed against the potential rewards of mission success
[00:57:37] and of course to counter that thought the cost of inaction must be weighed as well as aggressive
[00:57:46] as leaders must be leaders must be cautious that they are not running to their deaths simply because
[00:57:53] it is their instinct to take action that I caught a me between aggression and caution must be balanced
[00:58:01] so be aggressive but never reckless so there's a principle principle laid out and then of
[00:58:12] course it's followed up with a business example of which there are manifold of businesses where
[00:58:19] the business gets too aggressive they start getting properties to put more stores into and they build
[00:58:25] up all this rent that they got to pay every month the next thing you know they have a down
[00:58:29] month and they got real estate bills to pay or they start hiring a ton of people because they
[00:58:33] get a super aggressive and that's you know kind of where this story leads to is we're bringing
[00:58:37] going to bring in all these people because we think this future success is coming and the next thing
[00:58:40] you know your overhead is so huge because you got overly aggressive you end up with problems
[00:58:47] that is hard too that's so hard because that is absolutely in my nature is to
[00:58:53] and I think and to and so many people that resonate with extreme ownership that come to the
[00:58:57] monsters that I mean we've got default aggressive leaders that want to go dominate the universe
[00:59:01] and you've got to really you've got to really take a step back in the touch and think okay
[00:59:05] what am I not thinking about what I'm not seeing how my planning for those contingencies we
[00:59:10] just talked about you know a situation today you know with a client where you know they
[00:59:15] when things are going really well that's when you've got to be looking at what what what's
[00:59:20] what's about to go wrong and I haven't seen yet you know what I'm not planning for so
[00:59:24] it is very very difficult to balance this is a leader but you absolutely have to balance that you
[00:59:29] have to be aggressive you have to maneuver you know so many people get you know the the
[00:59:33] paralysis to analysis you know people talk about don't want to make it make a decision until
[00:59:38] you know the solution is right there and it's 100% guarantee nothing is ever 100% guarantee
[00:59:44] and by that time that's you know that's even close to being that you know the your
[00:59:47] competition's already maneuvered on the battlefield you're going to get wiped out and killed
[00:59:51] you know in the business world you know you're going to get you're going to get crushed by
[00:59:55] your competition and so you and yet being aggressive and also being prudent so that you're not
[01:00:00] falling in the traps not running to your death not sending your team up for total disaster
[01:00:05] and it's it's the only the only answer to this the only answer to this is you have to be balanced
[01:00:11] that's the only answer because if you go too far in one direction you know if you get super aggressive
[01:00:17] and you take too much risk and you'll get wiped out if you don't do anything and you sit there
[01:00:22] you're going to get wiped out you have to you have to balance these two all the time and
[01:00:29] yeah you're right this is something that it's something that we see all the time and I saw
[01:00:35] you know training seal platoons you get the guy that's super hyper aggressive and every time
[01:00:40] there's something going on there hey let's send a fire team over there and okay you send
[01:00:45] a fire team over there and then that fire team gets whacked and then another fire team over there okay
[01:00:48] then that fire team gets whacked and then another fire team next thing you know you're ever
[01:00:51] a patoon left okay so that was good you got everyone killed because you were hyper aggressive
[01:00:56] the other end of the spectrum is what we're not sure where the fire's coming from so we're going to
[01:01:00] sit here and wait okay well while you're not shooting at the enemy the enemy is maneuvering
[01:01:05] and they are getting high ground and they are getting a superior position and this is the exact
[01:01:09] same thing in the business world where I mean the the example of like hey we got to grow and so
[01:01:15] the aggressive leader the overly aggressive the hyper aggressive leader will grow too fast
[01:01:20] and all of a sudden has overhead that's too much and can't afford to go on but at the same time
[01:01:27] you get a you get a company that's not that's not aggressive enough and they should be entering
[01:01:32] another another line of operation they should be putting they should be entering another market
[01:01:39] you know we were talking about this morning while we were working out block blockbuster
[01:01:44] and blackberry right blockbuster and blackberry who would have thought that blockbuster which was
[01:01:49] there was a blockbuster on every street corner there was a block blackberry and everyone's pocket
[01:01:54] and they owned something like 80 something percent of the market share that they're done
[01:01:59] now are you telling me that someone that was default aggressive would have said you know what
[01:02:04] we need to figure out how to you know what these these these movies might be able to come on the
[01:02:09] internet in fact there's streaming video let's get into that market and of course they would
[01:02:13] have the capital they would have the infrastructure they would have the people and they could
[01:02:18] they would have been able to make that happen they had relationships with with the with the
[01:02:23] with the big Hollywood studios right they were getting sent those movies they had
[01:02:27] relationships they could have done that but they were sitting there going we were you're going to
[01:02:31] come rent these videos for 499 you got to get that VHS tape up in here right if that's the way it's
[01:02:38] got to be and same thing with blackberry they're thinking on loans gonna leave us because we got the
[01:02:42] little thing with the keyboard on it and we're set and meanwhile they're they're both done
[01:02:48] done lack of aggressive lack of foresight lack of planning and and for me it's really just lack
[01:02:54] of being aggressive aggressively looking around now we could go the other way and we could look at
[01:02:59] look at companies that put so much capital out there that they run out of money and they go
[01:03:05] they go down to so what do you have to do you have to balance you have to balance such which
[01:03:12] you have to do you know one more thing I think we do one more thing from this from this book
[01:03:19] just you and this is short little piece we were talking about earlier and it kind of relates
[01:03:24] to what and I think the reason we were talking about because it was kind of related in the disease
[01:03:28] of victory you had that little chunk again we do the we do the applications of business so people can see
[01:03:36] really directly how these principles in combat and the principal correlates to the civilian
[01:03:41] sector but you had a good one just a couple paragraphs on 84 about your kind of a stereotypical fire
[01:03:51] up extreme ownership boss that's going to come in there and make stuff happen I thought this was a good one go
[01:04:01] I've read a lot about patent the executive vice president said with pride referring to general
[01:04:05] George S. Paton Jr the famous U.S. Army general who's exploits in World War II were legendary
[01:04:11] I love that you reference patent in your presentation I want exactly the kind of discipline
[01:04:15] organization around here that patent expected we need people who carry out orders not
[01:04:20] question them I could tell right away that the executive vice president had no previous military
[01:04:26] experience he clearly misunderstood how effective leaders in the military led their teams it was not
[01:04:31] through rigid authoritarianism do this because I said so or you'll be punished sure there were
[01:04:37] those the military who tried to lead like that but it was never effective so there you go and I know
[01:04:45] you and I both and the rest of the team has dealt with guys that they they have that vision of
[01:04:50] this military leadership and usually it's guys that weren't the military and you know I like to
[01:04:54] draw a line and maybe I'm right maybe I'm wrong about this I think well and and from what I know
[01:05:00] from military history when you go back to conscripts when you when you get to the conscripts those
[01:05:09] guys are beaten until they are doing what they you know what they're told to do and we've we've
[01:05:14] covered some great examples of that on this podcast of situations where it's like oh you know
[01:05:18] what you know how we're going to lead we're going to lead through tyranny and we're going to lead through
[01:05:22] punishment and we're going to lead through rigid discipline rigid discipline which obviously everyone
[01:05:28] knows I'm a fan of discipline but when you're leading guys and the reason that they're following
[01:05:33] your orders is because they fear being beaten or fear being shot that but shot by you you know
[01:05:40] punished by you if that's why they're again it's the same situation where if that's why they're doing it
[01:05:47] you're never going to get the true optimal work and effort out of those people ever and even
[01:05:54] from from history I mean if you read Alexander the Great right or Julia Caesar who's a great
[01:05:59] example and they had conscripts but his men loved him and admired him and held him in tremendous
[01:06:04] regards because he he rewarded them he gave them credit he he explained well high I mean he was he was a guy
[01:06:10] who was always put himself at the forefront of of where the fighting was and you know much more
[01:06:17] so than just a political leader like many of the Roman the Roman leaders so just a phenomenal leader
[01:06:22] on the battlefield and so even even then you're the most effective leaders are always going to be
[01:06:27] they're always going to try to get the team on board with a mission help them understand why they're
[01:06:32] doing it put it put a greater purpose in their mind and I think so often as you said before
[01:06:37] you know leader leader like that this was this was a aggressive leader great you know great
[01:06:41] person who wanted to dominate the universe and and make things happen love extreme ownership
[01:06:45] and yet is is struggling to see that because they think they're leading like you would lead
[01:06:49] they look at they look at a picture jockel like this is what jockel would do it's just crush everyone
[01:06:54] and tell them to do it because I said and and as you've explained it doesn't work it doesn't work that
[01:06:58] way it's never effective and that's why that's why I'm proud of this book and I think it'd be so
[01:07:03] useful to leaders to see you can't do that if you do that you're not ever going to be a success
[01:07:08] was you could be if you actually get the team on board explain why to them and and tie that to the
[01:07:14] bigger purpose of of what you're trying to accomplish in the world yeah yeah I think that's
[01:07:19] all true I think the book will be helpful to people so yeah that caught a new leadership it's coming
[01:07:25] out September 25th if you want to if you want to get some you can get some of that we got some
[01:07:30] Q&A we got some questions to discuss here how does jump right into it number one what are
[01:07:39] speaking of that this is this is falling together quite nicely question number one what are things
[01:07:45] to look for when you're debating whether to raise your voice or yell due to those under you being lazy
[01:07:53] or unmotivated y'all talk a lot about the importance of self control and not just losing it
[01:07:59] but would you say there's a time and place for raising the intensity while still being respectful
[01:08:04] towards your guys so there you go yellin and scream it gets them sometimes you gotta just drop the hammer
[01:08:12] jocco yelled and scream it us all the time like I've I've talked about on this you know I think on the
[01:08:17] podcast we started talking about all the time and the number of times at jocco screamed and yelled at me
[01:08:24] zero zero times in all the years that we worked together and and I know I gave him
[01:08:29] at least dozens maybe hundreds of opportunities that we want to probably done that and he didn't
[01:08:34] do that because he realized it it wasn't effective so now listen there there is there is a time where
[01:08:40] you know if there's a major safety issue going on you're trying to get people's attention and you
[01:08:45] want people to cease fire or you need to rally the truth where you got to raise your voice and
[01:08:49] get people's attention and I think that's you can't be afraid to do that as a little bit. There's
[01:08:53] certainly times where I say hey life get get those bodies lined up over there or stuff like that I mean
[01:08:57] for sure that's is that yelling well yeah I'm definitely raising my voice and using a loud voice but
[01:09:02] I'm not doing it whatever with anger it's just hey you got to hear me and so and also you know
[01:09:10] there is time where you've got to you've got to pick up the intensity in your voice so that people
[01:09:14] realize there's something important happening right there's just enough now you don't want to
[01:09:19] yell and scream and get all crazy but to be like hey I need vehicles here now like that is different
[01:09:25] then hey can you get the vehicles over here now right those are two different things and you
[01:09:30] I would react differently if I heard those two voices so yes now to go back and this vehicle
[01:09:35] over you now no one now we're creating a whole panic situation but that that's a great point too
[01:09:39] right and it's it's the kind of you know never cry wolf you know sorry so when when you're if you're
[01:09:45] yelling all the time how do you do vehicles over here right now when there's nothing at stake and it's
[01:09:50] no big deal and it's just a routine movement you know then when you do that and you really need it
[01:09:56] then no one's paying attention they think oh it's just life yelling again into the radio so
[01:10:00] so I think that's another reason why I actually have seen Jaco raised his voice on one occasion
[01:10:07] yeah and when there was a series issue that needed to be addressed and you needed to get the
[01:10:13] person's attention to show just how serious of a situation it was and it got everybody's attention
[01:10:18] yeah it got everybody's attention right away because you never did that and when you did do it
[01:10:22] it was like oh man yeah and I was always tell that to leaders like being on the radio and this
[01:10:28] good goes for being in a meeting right if you go to a meeting if you're in charge of a meeting
[01:10:31] and you talk the whole time and then you have something important to say at the end well that's great
[01:10:36] but it's not as impactful as when you say very few things during the meeting and then at the end you
[01:10:41] say hey guys listen up here's what's going on with us and everyone pays attention so I've said this
[01:10:47] before the last you talk the more people listen and that goes true here the more you yell the last
[01:10:52] people listen and it takes away the opportunity if you ever do have to yell it's going to have
[01:10:58] zero impact so my blanket statement is you should hardly ever have to raise your voice and
[01:11:04] it should just barely ever happen next question it's a long one can you explain
[01:11:15] more how you managed working with the local Iraqi troops general matters who I hold in the
[01:11:21] highest extreme a steam said something to the effect that if you are doing anything that negatively
[01:11:27] impacts relations with allied forces you are of more used to the enemy than you are to the
[01:11:32] your team this makes it quite obvious that he believes that full cooperation with allied forces
[01:11:38] is key to attaining victory it is a well established fact that most of the Iraqi forces were
[01:11:44] incompetent to the point of posing danger to US troops so what steps did you take to ensure success
[01:11:51] when working with them well obviously relations with your allies are critical it's cover move
[01:12:00] ready you got to work together as a team and if you're working against each other that's absolutely
[01:12:05] catastrophic I think for us with Iraqi troops you know again we talked about how that was
[01:12:13] liberating right for for you know the big pushback was always like we want to do just seal
[01:12:17] you don't matter what race we call just seals or just Americans you know just like NATO ally
[01:12:23] forces and not work with with Iraqi troops and you know when you said that right away attack
[01:12:30] that's good listen don't even put up a concept of operations we have a connoisse we call it
[01:12:35] which is the approval for the plan that doesn't have Iraqi troops on it okay got it we're going
[01:12:40] to figure out a way to make that happen so that was the lime was drawn we knew we had to do that
[01:12:44] and we knew it was also important I mean because you explained that we talked about it we we thought
[01:12:48] through that but obviously we had to take some steps to mitigate that so I think there were
[01:12:55] again this is a dichotomy it's you got to be balanced there were I saw units who thought
[01:13:00] and we gave some examples even extreme ownership certainly and we talk about regular
[01:13:05] about where you you see a unit that would take two or four Americans in a bunch of Iraqis and
[01:13:09] try to go into really bad area like man you look you're not going to be able to count on those
[01:13:13] Iraqis in the middle of a gunfight when they're overwhelmed you better have enough Americans
[01:13:17] here to have you back so so they were asking too much of of the Iraqis and then their other
[01:13:22] units that didn't want to do you know didn't want to have any Iraqis with them didn't want
[01:13:25] any relationship with them and I had some stern talking to you know talking to some of my guys
[01:13:30] who wouldn't what weren't treating our Iraqi soldiers with respect I threatened one of my
[01:13:35] guys who was going to have to go sleep in the Iraqis so just barracks if you didn't go shake their hand
[01:13:39] I think you know in that time individual who's a great guy I think that was the last threat
[01:13:44] you had to make him submit to you I think I was serious the president I'm totally serious
[01:13:50] I'm serious so and we all what props to props to SF guys, mid teams that go out there and they do they
[01:13:56] live they eat you know even even having to code a mile in here he did two meals a day out of three
[01:14:02] with with his afghan soldiers that's that's awesome and you know what I liked about this
[01:14:08] question was the way that that it relates to to the civilian sector because you know what I talk
[01:14:16] about a lot a lot of times I talk about how my relationship with my boss regardless of who my boss
[01:14:21] was regardless of my boss was great or my boss was horrible my relationship was always the same
[01:14:25] I was going to have this great I was going to build relationship where they trusted me they gave me
[01:14:29] what I needed to do my job and then they let me do my job that's the relationship I always had with all my
[01:14:33] bosses right but I I that same methodology and concept can absolutely be applied to other
[01:14:41] organizations that you're supposed to work with so whether it's the army whether it's the
[01:14:46] Marine Corps whether it's the Iraqi soldiers whether it's the MPs whether it's the I the the intel
[01:14:53] people that the intel organization that you're working with no matter what the organization you can
[01:14:58] build a relationship again might you love that organization no you might not and where I see this all
[01:15:04] the time it well we see it all the time now is with businesses because guess what there's no
[01:15:07] business that's stand on the worship center is very few that are completely vertically integrated
[01:15:12] businesses I mean like an origin right we don't we we're pretty vertically integrated but guess
[01:15:17] what we don't grow the cotton like we don't do that we don't grow cotton but guess what we have a
[01:15:21] good relationship with the people that grow cotton we have a good relationship with the people at
[01:15:26] stain the cotton or sorry die the cotton so we build those relationships with those other people now
[01:15:33] I work with businesses where there's a supplier that they don't like so guess what they
[01:15:38] form a hostile relationship with this whole company a whole company what could does that do them
[01:15:43] it doesn't do them any good at all what it means is they have no personal relationships they
[01:15:48] they form that antagonistic relationship with a whole other organization and it's almost impossible to
[01:15:53] overcome so now this is something where if you don't explain that culture throughout your team they're
[01:15:59] going to treat that other team horribly and so if you're waiting on supplies if you're on a construction
[01:16:03] site and you're waiting for materials to be delivered and you don't have a good relationship with
[01:16:08] the people that deliver the drywall and now the drywall's run late for whatever reason and you call
[01:16:14] you you fly off the handle or whatever you're you're not going to get that drywall any earlier
[01:16:20] it's not happening heavy ever you know when I call customer service right customer service I
[01:16:26] learned this when I was working for the animal working for the animals aid I'd call up we didn't
[01:16:30] we travel a lot and I'd have to call up whatever delta or American whoever and I'd be trying to get
[01:16:38] whatever seats on an aircraft or something or a flight that was full or whatever get him an upgrade
[01:16:44] whatever and you know that's a hey how you doing that's always a I always start off with the
[01:16:50] with the because they're gone American airline how can I help you and they're mad right they're just
[01:16:54] mad to start with like how to get their mad whatever you know airline whatever car rental service
[01:17:02] whatever restaurant like people are just mad they're care they're mad they don't know who you are
[01:17:07] well they actually they've just talked to probably you know the last 25 people of screen
[01:17:11] screen in the island that's awful so you know you you call them and say hey how's it going and
[01:17:16] you know I always I had little head little micro jokes that I would make with the airlines
[01:17:21] that I used them with all of them all the time but one of them was I'd say they'd say well
[01:17:26] do you need to sit next to your boss and I'd say you know what I'd honestly appreciate it
[01:17:30] if you put me as far away from it and they'd laugh and then they'd try and hook me up even
[01:17:34] though my boss was a great guy and I'd sit with them all day but just it was a funny thing and it
[01:17:38] humanized me with them they thought I was that some poor sorry bastard that had to travel
[01:17:43] with his boss and then they were trying to take care of me it was like awesome so I would get the
[01:17:47] hookups I remember one time I went up and I had a conversation on the phone with someone and then
[01:17:54] of course this is different because it was live but I had a conversation like no can't get
[01:17:56] you on that flight and then I went up to the counter and I was like hey how you doing I'm trying
[01:18:00] to get me in my boss and it's on this flight and we're trying to get there and and he's acting
[01:18:03] like this gross like well what do you know do you need to go to him like well look if we don't get there
[01:18:08] here's the deal if you can just get my boss on that's great if if neither one of us get
[01:18:13] get on this flight it's been nice knowing you because I'm screwed and she just started laughing
[01:18:20] and again humanized it and then it's like all of a sudden she's like oh guess what we're going
[01:18:24] to we're going to bump some of these or whatever and she's making room and we're on the flight
[01:18:28] so don't develop this antagonistic relationship with another organization
[01:18:33] with Iraqi soldiers like is it great working with Iraqi soldiers? No it sucks it's hard
[01:18:38] but guess what that's what we have to do and I'll tell you something else strategically
[01:18:45] the Iraqi soldiers that are descendants of the guys that we train I mean maybe not I'm saying training
[01:18:51] or or training descendants right the guys that we trained trained to guys who just went and
[01:18:57] fought back and got Ramadi back from ISIS and got Mazul back from ISIS those are the guys
[01:19:03] that went in there and did the bulk of the fight did they get supported by Americans yes did
[01:19:05] Americans do a kick-ass job of doing massive fire support yes but the guys that were moving from street
[01:19:11] to street those were majority Iraqi soldiers did they have special ops guys with them yes but
[01:19:16] it was a majority of the people that were moving through the streets where Iraqi soldiers
[01:19:20] and there's no way possible that wouldn't have happened if American coalition forces
[01:19:26] over the last whatever it was 10 years 12 years would have taken those guys and made them work
[01:19:32] and done the the type of partner missions that we did with them so it was and when I said again
[01:19:38] when I say we are not talking about us the the seal teams I'm talking about everyone everyone made
[01:19:44] this concerted effort and it ended up being a great call because when those guys went out to
[01:19:50] to finally have to fight to take these cities back they were able to do it
[01:19:54] not totally by themselves but they were able to do it they did it and that's a vast improvement
[01:19:59] if we were to send if we would have sent the Iraqi troops as they were when we were in
[01:20:04] Ramadi into Mazul they would have gotten decimated so it's a credit to the US military it's a
[01:20:10] credit to the Iraqi military that they have now gotten up to speed where they can push forward
[01:20:14] and it's a credit to the US military and other coalition forces that worked with them to get them
[01:20:19] up to speed and what that all boils back to is forming relationships with the people that you
[01:20:26] are dependent on not just the people but the organizations that's all it's in.
[01:20:32] Yeah I think they we learn less and it's let's do let's use them for their tricks and that's
[01:20:38] what we learn in Ramadi we put them in situations where they could succeed we took enough
[01:20:43] Americans where we could actually succeed and help them succeed and of course we put some
[01:20:50] some efforts to mitigate rest too with with all we always said armed guys the oil head guys
[01:20:54] looking around we always with presented a hard target if one of those guys decided that they wanted
[01:20:58] to start batting for the other team and we were in a position to handle those problems and we never had
[01:21:04] any issues as a result but that's what you have to do is it's all about building coalitions and
[01:21:09] using people's strengths and complimenting those strengths and working with the team it's
[01:21:14] cover move if you don't do that you're going to you're going to fail and to all you people at the
[01:21:18] airlines thank you thank you for taking care of me over the years appreciate it next question
[01:21:25] jocco lathe and echo your opinion has been solicited on this leadership question right here
[01:21:34] so we'll see how that works out a good leader ensures his team understands what their goals are
[01:21:40] and why they are performing tasks but how do you balance doing this with not being the leader that
[01:21:46] talks so much that the team stops listening we do we just cover this for a long period of time pretty
[01:21:51] much it didn't we I guess we can leave it at this echo do you agree with what we said earlier
[01:21:57] or do you have a different opinion about talking too much and mind you you've said a lot today
[01:22:02] so don't be you know don't get crazy over it will stop listening
[01:22:11] the guy who talks too much no yeah less is more hundred percent go I like it
[01:22:17] I will say it musters when echo's echo's words to the audience
[01:22:23] he always gives an epic speech with we have solicited probably the greatest applause of
[01:22:27] everyone yeah I guess to dig into this a little bit of how to balance that with being a leader
[01:22:35] that talks too much I think you got to pay attention to what the reactions are you're getting
[01:22:39] for people right you got to pay attention to the reactions you're getting for people if the people are not
[01:22:45] totally actively listening to you right if they're not actively listening to you if they're
[01:22:52] taking notes if they're looking at their phone or not taking notes but if they're looking at their phone
[01:22:56] or whatever then you're you're talking too much keep it short keep concise and people will listen to
[01:23:03] you more also that when you say you got to pay attention to yourself that's like a deep one it's
[01:23:10] like you just said it really simply like I just pay attention to yourself I mean you didn't
[01:23:14] say like that but that's what it's telling that's the hardest part right there because a lot of
[01:23:18] times like hey me and life are talking and later it's looking at his phone I'm not thinking
[01:23:22] hey I'm talking too much I'm saying what I'm saying it's not interesting enough so I need so I need to say
[01:23:27] some more cool stuff or I need to be more of this or more of that because I'm losing them kind of thing
[01:23:32] like if I'm losing you the intuitive thought is not to to completely disconnect and stop talking that's
[01:23:38] not the intuitive thought seems like when you're in a situation you got to pay attention to that
[01:23:43] kind of stuff on yourself jocca does this all the time what do I do like buses phone out and
[01:23:48] start so yeah I don't even know whatever actually you know what okay I guess our conversation you know
[01:23:53] you know I do that to Dean and Dean Mr so Dean Dean is oh yeah this is a really important
[01:24:00] stuff we're talking about here is like yeah no what Dean does always he it makes him mad right he's
[01:24:04] got the he's got the pet peeve so Dean will be telling something and so you're doing a purpose to get
[01:24:10] a excuse no sometimes he's saying some rambling stuff right and I've got stuff going on Dean
[01:24:17] come on I know you're listening to this bro but sometimes he'll be saying something to me and all
[01:24:22] of the sudden I'll like look around up and and now I realize I'll just be watching people do
[01:24:27] do you just because we're normally on the map what this happens so he's telling me something like
[01:24:31] looking at the eyes and he's like you know in the ancient bubble bubble boy he'll be telling me
[01:24:36] about the Peloponnesian more something or whatever and and as I'm listening to him I'll kind of
[01:24:42] look and I'll start looking at someone that's training or looking at someone and he'll like attack
[01:24:46] me he went through a period where he would just attack me and like take me down and just start
[01:24:53] you know going psycho on me so that got me tuned up I got me tuned up where I tried to give Dean
[01:24:59] some more attention yeah I like that yeah I think that's uh I think that's a good
[01:25:03] cause that's what you feel like when he starts doing that sort of the brats you what you're doing
[01:25:07] you know well the thing is though and I think you're in the same boat late for where I know
[01:25:12] you kind of know now like in everyday life with other people you might think I mean intuitively
[01:25:17] anyway like on losing them or whatever but you can tell with him if he starts doing that stuff you're like
[01:25:22] okay he's the most stop or yeah move on or something but it's all because you know the same
[01:25:27] as I listen if you can give me 35 more seconds we'll be honest and if you can move on to whatever you need to
[01:25:34] bad character or something that I have where I can do that sometimes I'm done listening to you
[01:25:39] so wrap it up of course you see all the time yeah just your one time asmba system all right
[01:25:46] next question for life this is a guy who have he won you know what all right life
[01:25:55] in and out burger or what a burger dude I do not want to go there man that is too much
[01:26:04] that's like double rainbow too much right this is uh I gotta I gotta tell you look obviously
[01:26:13] I'm from Texas water burgers are all over the place and water burgers are awesome you can't
[01:26:17] go wrong with the water burger um in and out is uh it's pretty tough to be though it's uh there's
[01:26:22] something special about the internet I used to have you know over Pacific Beach I had a storage unit
[01:26:27] over there and there's like my storage unit was like right in and up or a hill those are good burgers
[01:26:36] the uh my storage unit was it would like kick the exhaust or like right back up into
[01:26:42] and so so like the exhaust blasting in your face you know from like 25 yards 30 yards away
[01:26:48] as I'm like there at my storage unit on the server for whatever and I was like double double we're
[01:26:54] getting some double double so yeah internet is awesome it's it's tough to beat I'm a huge fan
[01:26:58] internet I will say this though where's the meat man come on those burgers you gotta put
[01:27:04] what a burger you gotta a lot more more patty yeah well apparently you're not a working in the triple triple
[01:27:09] that's what we need quadruple quadruple yeah that's what we got there my my kids after they
[01:27:16] would cut weight for wrestling season I spent more money in an out burger during wrestling season
[01:27:22] because after they cut weight and then they rest all day and then you're going home and all they
[01:27:26] want to do is go in an out burger in an out burger yeah it's it cutting weight for me is the
[01:27:32] very I mean playing football is like maybe one of these big and fabulous plastic and this is
[01:27:36] crush food yeah check all right speaking of well like a speaking of combat sports
[01:27:42] next question six this is your jitz of question should instructors not teach white belts
[01:27:53] aka lathe babbin david berk and jp to nail that's cold blood it's a good deal to you that is
[01:27:59] good deal to you they should instructors not teach white belts certain techniques or should
[01:28:08] why they shouldn't do them be explained but still expose the white belts to techniques
[01:28:14] set the white belts recognize them so there's some techniques that you don't get taught very often
[01:28:19] as a white belt for instance a heel look I believe that it is good to not teach people a
[01:28:26] teach white belts to do heel hooks because the for example heel hooks can be very dangerous
[01:28:33] the reason that they're dangerous because they don't hurt a lot before they injure you and so white belts
[01:28:39] who are by nature completely insane and going crazy and going nuts and so when they get a
[01:28:46] hold of something they just go as hard as they can and by the way they're usually going against the
[01:28:49] white belt that's the only reason they're getting anything on them because they're going
[01:28:51] against white belt and that other white belt's going completely insane and he's not going to tap
[01:28:55] and so what happens you get the triple triple lindi right ACL MCL PCL tear game over
[01:29:03] this guy's never trained in jjitsu again or this guy's not trained in jjitsu for two years or
[01:29:07] whatever so is it smart to not teach them yes it is however dichotomy balance should you just
[01:29:17] never show them what they are no you should you should explain to them hey this is what the move is this is
[01:29:22] this is why we don't teach them this is why we don't teach them because you can get hurt
[01:29:26] and when you get a little bit more advanced and you learn to relax a little bit more we'll teach
[01:29:29] you some of these these techniques that are slightly more dangerous do you know he's freaks out because
[01:29:36] saying that a heel hook is more dangerous than a then a comira I mean if you ask me what I want
[01:29:42] to have somebody just go berserk on a cus cumira on me or a heel hook I'd probably pick the heel
[01:29:47] hook right because then you you still have shoulder mobility whereas cumira that's that's just
[01:29:53] if someone goes nuts on a cumira and just rip your arm up your shoulder apart what would you
[01:29:57] rather have yeah I'm thinking to put all day long so but for some reason it's kind of a rough choice
[01:30:04] there that is a rough choice that is a rough choice that's not a choice you want to be making
[01:30:09] because either one of them's not good but I think you can do a better job of replacing the knee
[01:30:13] and getting the knee squared away then you can the shoulder there's no the shoulders tough but for
[01:30:19] some reason the cumira is everyone you're learning cumira day one right day three you're learning
[01:30:24] cumira and you could definitely trash someone shoulder but it hurts it does hurt been that's
[01:30:30] beneficial yeah I need the shoulders gonna have a way more flexibility than your little your knee
[01:30:36] twisting joint you like that's that you can't be like hey I'm so I'm gonna let you get some
[01:30:40] jump double jump to your knees of bone and you actually right show you guys who can you
[01:30:46] shoulder you know just varying levels of shoulder flexibility and then that also goes for like the
[01:30:51] pain tolerance as well knees last way less from from a wide bill perspective there's so much
[01:30:57] to to learn I mean it's you know and the more I train the more I realize how little I actually
[01:31:02] know and how much more there is that I mean why I would I would I would I would rather focus on you know
[01:31:09] on the more the more foundational aspects of the game and until I can get those a little bit better
[01:31:14] I think that makes a lot of sense to me I think you might be the bull white belt right now of the
[01:31:18] world so in the in the navy the ensin which is the lowest ranking ensin at a ship or a seal
[01:31:26] team he gets called the bull ensin which means he's been the junior guy for the longest amount of
[01:31:32] time and you've been trained she's your footer quite some would you well you start training with me
[01:31:37] in 2005 right yep can you train before me with Fabio I train a few times okay so you've been trained
[01:31:44] since oh three oh four that's been a long time bro most of that's 14 years most of that 14 years
[01:31:53] I'd say I've been seriously training for you know probably probably like back at it you know
[01:31:58] pretty consistently you know multiple times a week for year and a half okay so yours year in
[01:32:03] the zone you're in the zone you be getting that blue belt you at some point Todd White down in Texas
[01:32:08] I'm gonna crack it out possibly I don't know maybe you're not ready though I'll make my dad wait
[01:32:13] Todd White I'm definitely not ready he's the good you going no you got nothing you got nothing
[01:32:20] check so yeah that's I think the deal same thing with same thing uh the other problem with teaching
[01:32:27] a person for instance he'll hooks is then they think that that's the solution to the guard
[01:32:32] and it's not the solution to the guard it's a solution to the guard it's a one possible one one
[01:32:40] one small possible one a solution there's many many more and there's others as you said
[01:32:45] life that are more fundamental so it's that's my that's my answer yeah that thing um how you say
[01:32:53] the like let them know what it is yeah and well when you consider an actual typical White belt class
[01:32:59] they hook it's probably not gonna be introduced in any significant capacity yeah at all like no one's
[01:33:04] gonna choose to spend time in a White belt class to teach a hill yeah typically is not gonna happen
[01:33:09] but like the control thing right like you know you get a even a good blue belt is been in for a
[01:33:14] long time per belt up purple belt and up they're gonna know the control on a hill hook like if I
[01:33:19] you know purple belt doesn't heal hook on you the risk of you getting injured unless you don't
[01:33:24] tap or something like that is pretty low it's gonna be pretty low because they know that control of just
[01:33:29] their whole body and you don't know you should tap exactly right yeah so the White belt they don't
[01:33:33] even have control very important they don't have control or they have a lot less control in everything
[01:33:39] by the way there's a strong possibility there's a strong person but that's with everything like
[01:33:45] even on a defending a take down it's like so odd a couple as a blue belt I heal hook to a friend of mine
[01:33:52] and I heard him and I didn't it wasn't even he was he was a no nothing right and we're going and
[01:34:01] I just started learning hill hooks and I put a hill hook on him and we were overseas and I put a hill
[01:34:07] hook on him and he wasn't tapping and I was kind of like well that's weird you know why is
[01:34:12] he tapping so I went a little bit harder and then all of a sudden there was a little pop and I let
[01:34:16] go and I was like and yeah but you know he was a seal and so he was like all this is gonna work on me
[01:34:23] he doesn't hurt and all of a sudden so I I wasn't going nuts because like I said I was a blue belt
[01:34:27] I was in pretty good control but even I didn't realize at that time oh this will injure him before it will
[01:34:36] cause pain which is a bad thing to have yeah these kids I mean he's guys if they're
[01:34:42] no one has control over anything by the way any any other moves and they're doing hill hooks as a
[01:34:48] normal thing like oh yeah we do we got taught this and stuff and it's effective you know like a
[01:34:52] lot of submissions and hill hooks and a lot of foot locks are one of those ones where you to gain
[01:34:57] the position to go for that submission you have to work a lot less than like an arm bar where you
[01:35:03] have to actually pass someone's guard and you know getting even side control but a lot of times get
[01:35:07] to the you know you got to work more to get into the position with hill hooks not not not so much
[01:35:11] like that so if you know yeah you can just throw it out there and you throw in the lack of control yeah
[01:35:17] man so you increase the chance for injury for sure all right next question I am a 66 year old
[01:35:26] police chief and CrossFit athlete is your muster doable for me absolutely there'll be plenty of
[01:35:35] people who are in your age group and there's no question that you should come and join us for
[01:35:42] monster get after if you're your police chief across for athlete you can more more than get after
[01:35:47] with the the 445 club workouts are voluntary we usually have I mean we probably have what you know 80
[01:35:54] 85% of our participation I mean is massive but they're they're designed so that really anybody can
[01:35:59] do we have people with top level athletes down to you know folks who look like the private
[01:36:04] men of the gym hold on yeah we have the fact you started to get so I remember one guy that was
[01:36:09] I'm heading in for doubled knee surgery in a week and so I'm just and he was an older guy you know
[01:36:13] then had been out of the gym for a bit and he was out there like you said that the the workouts are
[01:36:19] scaleable to the individual that's participating in the in the event and so we at all every level
[01:36:26] you can come to the monster in any literally in any physical condition you can come to the
[01:36:30] monster and you can you can get after it with us next question I find meetings of greater than
[01:36:42] or equal to eight people far less productive than smaller groups even with structured action
[01:36:51] oriented agenda is there a maximum amount of people you'd involve in a strategic or tactical planning group
[01:37:03] I don't think I don't think there is a maximum amount I think it just has to be controlled
[01:37:06] and you've got to have you've got to have some decentralized command or people understand if there's
[01:37:11] just a bunch of people that meeting and everyone's kind of speaking in turn and talking over
[01:37:16] each other you're not going to get anything done so you got to have there's got to be one
[01:37:19] leader who's run that there's got to be some some you know some other subordinate leaders that
[01:37:24] and one person has got to drive that meeting and make sure that when someone starts going
[01:37:29] in down a rabbit hole okay you guys have a sidebar conversation afterward let's keep this meeting
[01:37:34] focused and let's and ultimately the decision maker who can focus the team on a single course of action
[01:37:40] get her by behind them I agree and there's certainly times where you can bring too many people
[01:37:45] into trying to figure something out I mean that can certainly happen and we we have the good idea
[01:37:48] fairies that keep coming around with their good ideas and cause I don't know what if we did this
[01:37:52] I wonder if we did that there's also an interesting dynamic that you just pointed out that ties into a
[01:37:56] question that we had earlier or something that we were talking about earlier which is okay so let's
[01:38:02] say we have a meeting and there's 15 people in that meeting if the leader of that meeting then
[01:38:08] we'll say steps down into the position of being the the director of the meeting itself
[01:38:18] he guess what he's doing all the time he's talking he's pulling things he's get and what he's doing
[01:38:22] while he's doing that is he's getting in the weeds of what's going on so as he's getting in the weeds
[01:38:27] of what's going on he's losing this strategic vision and so if there's 20 people in a meeting
[01:38:32] and you as the leader are going okay what do you think what do you think what do you think
[01:38:36] and hey no let's get it focused when you're doing all that traffic copying you're actually
[01:38:41] losing your strategic altitude you're not going to be able to see and make a good clear decision
[01:38:46] so if there's 30 40 50 people in a meeting and you as the leader get down in the weeds
[01:38:53] and get down in the trenches and you start throwing down with everyone well it's not going to take
[01:38:58] very long well you're just you're just one of the troops and you don't see anything where is if you
[01:39:02] let let one of the other leaders let one of the subordinate leaders let them step up let them start to
[01:39:08] do their thing let them do the direction of the meeting you might even tell them hey run this meeting
[01:39:12] I would do that I'd be like hey you run this meeting and then you let them get in there and the
[01:39:17] trenches and let them try and sort out ideas and they're mind gets filled with a bunch of crap and meanwhile
[01:39:22] you're in the meeting you're just not running it so there's a big difference between running the meeting
[01:39:27] and overseeing the meeting or being in the meeting or being a leading leader of the meeting so
[01:39:32] if we're going through a kill house or if we're going if we're going through a kill house that's a
[01:39:37] good example which is the you know the room with the building with a bunch of rooms and it if
[01:39:41] as the leader you don't say hey I'm gonna run this kill house I'm not gonna I'm not gonna
[01:39:47] direct the movement through the kill house because then guess what you're doing you're directing
[01:39:51] the movement through the kill house what you want to do is take a step back and say hey you
[01:39:56] third, fourth, fifth in the chain of command you run this kill house you run the train and now
[01:40:03] that guy goes okay cool I got it and now while he's running the train doing the work you're
[01:40:08] step back and out too you can see what's going on you can hear the frustration you can hear
[01:40:12] shots fired you know where people are moving then you become you're the real leader so
[01:40:18] same thing in a meeting the dynamics of the meeting or you get more than 10 people 15 people
[01:40:22] and what you're doing is you're down there directing traffic it's gonna be really problematic
[01:40:26] for you if you have a meeting with 15 or 20 people and you tell someone else to direct the meeting
[01:40:33] and run the meeting and you take a step up and you simply observe you're gonna have a better time
[01:40:41] feeling like the meeting is effective and you will get the benefit of hearing all these different
[01:40:45] voices which is good which is good to hear all these different opinions and voices and be able to pick
[01:40:50] through and sort through and that's gonna give you more benefit than you know what I get there's
[01:40:55] two it's going on this meeting only give me two people and we'll make the decisions well there's
[01:40:58] some people number number the six person that person had a good input right the 12 person might
[01:41:04] had some good input so again is there balance yes are there certain decisions that you kind of
[01:41:09] need to take and really dive down in with a small group absolutely but is it good sometimes to let
[01:41:16] things air out and let someone run a meeting and you listen and you learn kind of what the overall
[01:41:21] atmosphere is in the situation are absolutely that's my answer I think it's a great one it helps
[01:41:27] people it helps people listen to you as well right I mean when if you're the boss and you're just
[01:41:32] sitting back and you're not saying anything and then all of a sudden you're like hey guys we're
[01:41:35] getting way off topic here this is what we need to do here's the direction we need to go got it everyone's
[01:41:40] you know back on track whereas if you're in the middle of it then yeah people are just automatically
[01:41:45] you know kind of doing there I'm sure we said this before and I know we talked about it really
[01:41:47] to be like when I would say something on the radio and task unit bruiser when I would say like a
[01:41:52] legitimate thing man it would happen if I got on and said everyone get the building 34 now people would
[01:41:59] go and one of my favorite things to do one of my favorite conversations to have on the radio
[01:42:04] with with either you or stoner was like I remember you'd be like you'd say hey Jocco we got another
[01:42:10] mover where I want to take down building 34 and I'd come up and go do it that was all I'd ever
[01:42:15] said be like do it and I just like go because I'm not trying to talk right I got these guys got
[01:42:21] their situation tandled hey he's going outside of something that we planned hey Jocco want to
[01:42:26] build a move to building 34 and take that thing down do it not well why do you want to do that you
[01:42:32] know why he wants to do it because he's got a good reason he's not asking me that because it's a
[01:42:35] fantasy that he thinks it's going to be cool no there's a reason and he'll explain that to me later
[01:42:40] and if it was something where he's like I want to you know start doing jumping jacks out here
[01:42:44] then I might ask why because that doesn't make my sense to me but to say hey we're hitting
[01:42:49] building 34 as well what if we were doing burpees with that make more sense that makes a little
[01:42:54] more sense little more sense than jumping jacks look that that actually worked it worked for us
[01:43:01] when you when you said some of the radio like got it we're good like it the decision made
[01:43:05] everyone's on board and I think it's it's something that you've got to you've got to focus on
[01:43:12] with like when a leader talks it should matter and and I think you can be you got to be really
[01:43:16] careful about that and I've certainly been a chief violator that of like going off a two to
[01:43:21] too many different directions but that you did extremely well at Tassian bruiser and it works
[01:43:26] and every later should be very Congress of them yeah the last you talked the more people listen
[01:43:30] all right next in a in a middle management position what's the best way to support the company
[01:43:42] and leadership you work for while still showing your fellow workers they are supported and appreciated
[01:43:51] I work in surgery at a large hospital within even larger corporation
[01:43:58] this is one of those things and I remember saying I'm sure I got this from hackworth but it's one of
[01:44:03] those things that I've said so many times I actually probably forget to even give credit to hackworth
[01:44:08] but you know when problems little problems would arise up the chain of command and I'd be like
[01:44:13] everyone hates the echelon of command above them right that's the way it is like and that's just
[01:44:19] the way it is that's the way it is it's always they don't get it so they don't understand
[01:44:24] unless you get somebody that really knows how to explain and communicate down the chain of
[01:44:29] commands that everyone understands why they're doing what they're doing that's what this is that's
[01:44:33] exactly what this is like if it what's the best way to support the company leadership it's to
[01:44:38] take what the company and the leadership of the company says and translate it to the troops
[01:44:43] in a way that they understand and that means something to them right so you go to a big meeting
[01:44:50] and you know like let's say in all hands meeting for a company and and the CEO is saying
[01:44:58] hey we made you know we made 87 million dollars last year profit and if all the front line
[01:45:03] troops are in there they're like well that's cool but I didn't see that reflected in my pay
[01:45:12] check by the way you gave me a $4 raise over the last three years how about some of that 87
[01:45:18] million kick it down to the people so that's problematic because we aren't explaining hey good that's
[01:45:24] it that literally that statement right there will actually make people mad the the the the CEO's
[01:45:29] thinking everyone's gonna love me because I'm telling how profitable we are as a company all
[01:45:33] everyone's thinking as a little bit why can't you afford to buy me that piece of gear that we
[01:45:36] need on the front lines what's your problem that's so you actually think you're helping but you're
[01:45:41] actually hurting unless you can explain to people look we made this much profit here's how it's
[01:45:46] gonna benefit us as a company and you as a front line troop by us making this much money it means
[01:45:51] we can grow these areas it means we can bring on more people that means everyone in this room right
[01:45:55] now in the next three years you're gonna have an opportunity to be in a leadership position that's
[01:45:59] why I'm talking about that's why we're trying to grow that's why we're trying to do better by the way
[01:46:03] as we this is snowballing even more because now we're putting more money into advertising we've got
[01:46:07] whole advertising campaign that's going out we've invested a bunch of money in that and it's gonna
[01:46:11] bring us more business and that means the jobs that you think might not be stable your job if you
[01:46:15] don't think it's stable it just got stable because we have the capital to get this machine moving
[01:46:21] even faster so when you do that when you explain to the troops why something's happening it makes
[01:46:28] them understand and it shows your people hey you're supporting are there times where you should push back
[01:46:35] yes there are and if something makes no sense whatsoever you should raise your hand it's hey
[01:46:40] let me let me let me run this up the chain of command let me run this up the chain of command and
[01:46:44] explain why this is in a good idea and that way you can go and when you get the reason because they'll
[01:46:49] be a reason and it might not be the best reason but it'll be a reason and you go back to troops and
[01:46:53] say hey here's why this is going on this is what's happening this is the decision they made
[01:46:57] and you know what we're gonna do our best to execute it because that's what we do we make things happen
[01:47:02] we're gonna get it done boom and we got a great we've got a great depiction of that in
[01:47:08] and talking about being humble not passive and pushing back where it matters in the deck out of
[01:47:13] me leadership that's that whole section is talking exactly about that it's a very hard thing
[01:47:18] you know for people and that the the basis of this question though is the us versus them right front
[01:47:23] lines versus corporate headquarters and you've got to defeat that if you're a good leader you
[01:47:29] got to recognize look we're all the same team we can't do what we need to do without having the
[01:47:34] support and you know the resources and the approvals a plans from the corporate headquarters you know
[01:47:41] and corporate headquarters it oftentimes so not only are is there frustration up the chain there's
[01:47:47] also frustration down the chain you hear that all the time like will the front lines it will
[01:47:50] really get it they don't get it over there well listen from the front lines is where the actual
[01:47:55] mission gets one lost yeah so you you've got to you might want to have them on board with the
[01:48:00] big example so you got to make sure that you know that it's got to if you want to successful team
[01:48:04] you you can't have us versus them ever to get on board for the big win yeah the full metal jacket
[01:48:10] right what's your problem son once you get on board for the big win and and you think oh well
[01:48:15] if i'm the general and i'm telling this young guy that's got a peace sign on this helmet
[01:48:19] that represents the dichotomy maybe that's where i learn the word dichotomy from that represents the
[01:48:24] dichotomy of what does he say that dichotomy again he says the duality of duality of man yeah
[01:48:29] you're right that represents the duality of man what did you take that thing off and get on board
[01:48:34] for the big win and that's such a great line from that move join the team son get on board for the
[01:48:39] big win that's such a great line from that movie because that's exactly what we're talking about
[01:48:42] that does absolutely nothing for that front line soldier that goes okay you're saying that
[01:48:48] and i'm literally bearing people right now in this situation and so for you saying that to me means
[01:48:53] nothing in fact it shows how completely freaking out a touch you are and so they did a great job
[01:48:58] in that movie of representing that through one single line it won't just get on board for the
[01:49:03] big win it's like no actually why don't you lead how does that sound so communicate up and down
[01:49:13] jinnic man make sure people know why and tie in why it matters to them next question
[01:49:22] in extreme ownership you talk about being close with the team but not so close that they forget
[01:49:27] who's in charge or that the good of the team suffers how do you overcome the isolation of leadership
[01:49:34] what strategies did or do you employ to avoid the isolation becoming an issue this is an example
[01:49:44] of i'm gonna take this to the extreme hey i'm not gonna be too close to my people guess what i'm
[01:49:51] not talking to them right i'm not gonna speak to them i'm gonna i'm gonna maintain a distance
[01:49:55] i'm gonna and it's it's obviously not true it's obviously not true and i think you know
[01:50:00] the the relations that you and me and Seth and the that we all had was clearly uh this right
[01:50:07] i wasn't alone i wasn't isolated as the leader because we were all bros and hanging out and
[01:50:13] now didn't start off like that no you know i as we always talk about like i come across a hack
[01:50:17] worth style of like hey we're not gonna joke around for at least whatever six to eight weeks to make
[01:50:21] sure that these dudes are good to go and that that they understand where i'm coming from and and
[01:50:28] that's cool but once we get through that okay like then it's like open up a little bit then it's like
[01:50:32] open up a little bit more and then it's up a little bit more so that you're not isolated at the
[01:50:36] top because not only is it important that you're not isolated that's like that's like a marginal thing
[01:50:42] what's more important is what i talked about earlier is if you if life can't come to me and say
[01:50:48] hey man hey i don't agree with this plan or more importantly hey jockel here's what's going on
[01:50:53] with the troops right now here's what's going on with the mentality here's what's going on with the
[01:50:57] morale if he can't knock on my door and say that to me then that's a real problem because now um you
[01:51:05] know i'm i'm in the dark on what's happening inside inside with the troops which is problematic
[01:51:12] yeah i think it's this to me sounds like uh i was thinking about this question and
[01:51:17] it sounds to me like uh maybe a junior leader that was promoted at the chain because that's where
[01:51:21] you really feel like when i go from you know the assistant buto commander where i'm like kind of one
[01:51:24] of the boys and i'm you know where we can you know it's kind of uh i can kind of play interference
[01:51:30] with it with the officer and charge and the buto commander now so i get promoted it's you recognize
[01:51:35] instantly there's a little bit of difference you've got to maybe kind of distance yourself a slightly
[01:51:39] from where you were previously in recognized when you took over charlie buto and i was the
[01:51:43] buto commander when did you realize you needed to transition from being one of the boys until
[01:51:48] being the o i seen that there was that the gap was going to open up a little bit was it as soon as
[01:51:53] you took over it was pretty quick because i've been to buds uh and uh seal qualification training
[01:51:58] you know as future advanced training with uh with several guys uh and i knew these guys very well
[01:52:03] and you know i think we had a big house party hanging out you know having a good time and and
[01:52:08] uh everybody's over at my house and all of a sudden I realized some i did all the time you know
[01:52:12] as an assistant to the new commander and all of a sudden uh we're in it work you know the next
[01:52:16] week and i got to uh make some some tough calls and we got to get you know drive the standards
[01:52:21] a little bit higher where we're at and they're supposed back and you realize like okay when it's
[01:52:26] when it's time to give some people some bad news or say hey we're not doing as good as we should
[01:52:29] we need to fix that and they kind of give you the leg hey bro you know what are you doing
[01:52:34] Friday you know like then it's then you're like okay i'm gonna have to i'm gonna have to distance
[01:52:37] a little bit but the the isolation you should never be isolated i think that's one thing that
[01:52:43] you know i remember coming into your office and uh i'm coming in hang out all the time in your
[01:52:48] office you know you you you come in hang out in the between space i mean i've come you know we
[01:52:52] we'd see each other in the gym we're like we're always trying to find a way to like hang out and talk
[01:52:57] and and um it was even even when you know Seth's known was all we're across the the other side of
[01:53:02] the city i mean you know we'd still connect with him and talk to him with the phone and what's
[01:53:05] well yeah well i talked about time on the uh and dvt yeah you guys you guys talk right
[01:53:12] but but haven't but even even you know yeah we'd always we he came by like we'd always
[01:53:16] try to try to get together and talk to each other and catch up with us in the chow haul or
[01:53:20] our uh you know in in the between space and you know gas like i've ever told you would come
[01:53:25] with our ad come in i'd walk in and i'd see the wind plan written up on chowco's whiteboard
[01:53:30] the task in it roser or Tony had written down all the things that we needed to do to wind and
[01:53:35] rabadi which were pretty harsh yes true but probably on the probably on the level like gangas
[01:53:41] common certainly had a great news that gangas common wind plan which you know what hey man but
[01:53:46] we are as it's marron we are we are joking laughing about that this is the relationship juggle had
[01:53:50] you know not only with me but with with with other leaders in the task unit and uh and i think you
[01:53:54] have to have that i mean you you've got to have a you've got to have a relationship with your people
[01:53:58] um you can't think that i can't talk to anyone i can't interact with anyone i think this you're
[01:54:02] gonna be unsuccessful leader um you know if if uh you try to roll that way it's just not gonna
[01:54:07] work yeah i think where you might feel what might feel like a isolation which is definitely true
[01:54:13] and this is the burden of command right like guess what you your friends with life your friends
[01:54:18] with Seth your friends with Tony your friends with these guys but at the same time like oh the burden
[01:54:23] of command is on you and it's gonna be it's gonna be you you're gonna you're gonna bear that right
[01:54:30] in your cartoon it's like hey you got your assistant to two commands you got your
[01:54:33] patron chief you got your LPO but when something goes wrong if something goes wrong if you
[01:54:41] if there's a bat if something happens on a mission it goes bad i'm not talking i'm not i'm not
[01:54:45] looking at the assistant platoon commander i'm i'm looking at you that's the burden of command that's
[01:54:51] so that thing yeah that's the there's one man that stands on the carpet right that's that's the
[01:54:56] way it works and sometimes being one man that's that's a little bit of a nice lady feeling
[01:55:01] and to help help you understand our leading petty officer charlotte batoon awesome awesome amazing
[01:55:06] CEO love the guy and uh help he could be on here one of these days but after the debut
[01:55:10] year is retirement comes one one of these days but uh he was i'm at we were we were up in
[01:55:17] navaa training and uh we took a couple days to go snowboarding which was an awesome good deal and
[01:55:26] he like we're in the vanny looks around he like sees me he's like i'm not the senior guy in charge
[01:55:32] and uh so he's screaming a laugh and about how awesome it is to nong be the senior guy because he
[01:55:37] knows the burden of command is now with me and now with him if uh guys get trouble or do something
[01:55:42] we should have done yeah yeah which is while you're in toho guys getting in trouble and doing
[01:55:48] stuff stupid it's probably a fairly likely thing to have at highly valuable that's one of my
[01:55:55] favorite trips that I did multiple times yeah so that's it man build relationships and at the same
[01:56:01] time you are when you're in charge you're in charge and there's a little bit of uh that's called
[01:56:06] the burner command embrace it and we got time for one more question here you go in life and
[01:56:17] jocos opinion you've been excluded from this one echo troughs they don't want your opinion
[01:56:24] what has changed or what point do you find you need to emphasize more from when you wrote
[01:56:32] extreme ownership to now well this is a softball question that I selected he said all the
[01:56:37] easy ones well yeah I think the answer to this one's pretty obvious that's why we wrote the book
[01:56:42] that kind of a leadership I mean this is uh this is what we had needed to emphasize more and just as
[01:56:49] you know you talked about this when we were talking about jaws to you know whether now you know the
[01:56:54] sequel is gonna be as good and you know we had we had pressured a right a book he's trying
[01:56:57] to be very well like hey guys you're right in the book we didn't want to write in the book until we
[01:57:02] actually had something useful to write about that would impact leaders for the better help them be
[01:57:07] better people better leaders lead better teams lead better lives and and that's what this is type
[01:57:12] the decadent leadership answers uh the most difficult challenges and and obstacles that we see
[01:57:17] leaders face and I think that three years you know one thing that is your motion did for us is
[01:57:23] I mean our company blew up as a result echelon front we were able to work with so many more leaders and
[01:57:28] so many more companies and we got to see this over and over and over and over and over again and
[01:57:34] and this uh this is capturing those those issues uh that that we saw uh and then the solutions
[01:57:40] to solve most problems to leadership yeah I think it's gonna be pretty evident I think it was cool
[01:57:45] how it revealed itself as the subject matter of the next book I mean we we like you
[01:57:52] said business blew up yes we were busy we weren't really sitting there going okay watch the next
[01:57:58] book we read about watch the next book be about we actually we didn't even think of we weren't
[01:58:03] even thinking about it and then as we started saying you know people don't understand this as well
[01:58:09] hey we we should have added more chapters about the dichotomy we and it's like over time all
[01:58:16] of us on it became very it became completely blatantly obvious that what people needed help with
[01:58:23] was this most difficult thing which is achieving the balance of all the different dichotomies
[01:58:29] of leadership and that's why we wrote the dichotomy leadership gets on right on well or
[01:58:36] just hitting that two hour mark which means we only have two hours for echo to talk about support
[01:58:42] you said echo was a school for that last question but I want to know what your answer is echo
[01:58:50] from uh oh yeah what you've learned since extreme ownership comes out since the podcast is launched
[01:58:55] okay so the the main thing that sticks out main thing is that is what people seem to ask you all
[01:59:02] the time is what do I do when other people aren't taking extreme ownership and here's thing when
[01:59:07] you're outside and listening you're like a high see what you know it's almost like a funny
[01:59:11] question right because like what what do you call that like ironic right kind of or they're like what
[01:59:15] do you do when other people but it's you the one supposed to you know so that's it but the reason
[01:59:20] that that significant is because when you're in the situation that's exactly what it feels like you
[01:59:25] can't like really see it seems to me so you got a detach which kind of kind of shed more even more
[01:59:31] light on the uh the importance of detaching right so it kind of feeds into itself but so yeah when
[01:59:38] you're in the situation and you have to essentially take ownership when the other person should
[01:59:45] be taking ownership but actually in your mind the other person hey you need to take responsibility
[01:59:50] for this that's the time you gotta take responsibility of it yeah it's hard to like it's hard to
[01:59:55] really grasp that in the beginning I thought well that was pretty cool recently we got an email
[01:59:59] from a guy that's overseas running a company and he he listened to Dave Burke and and Neil did
[02:00:07] yeah good deal Dave and I think it's a great example to say can you take ownership of the weather
[02:00:12] right because the obvious answer is no I can't take ownership of the weather and I talk about this
[02:00:15] on that podcast is like well actually you can yeah because you can come over contingency plans you can
[02:00:19] come up with you can stage your force forward closer and so anyways this guy in his company
[02:00:25] it's a software type company and implementation company and they piggyback on a big giant you know
[02:00:31] one of the biggest companies in the world and that biggest company in the world one of the biggest
[02:00:37] companies in the world made some errors and it messed up their platform and they went to their
[02:00:44] clients and hey the platform got messed up it was the big guys they did this this and this wrong
[02:00:50] and the people were like oh well okay you know I guess and then he went home and he listened to
[02:00:57] that podcast and he went I screwed up because that's hey the biggest company in the world is still
[02:01:03] easier to control than the weather right and so he went back to the company and he went back to the
[02:01:10] his client and said you know what it wasn't their fault it was our fault it was my fault
[02:01:15] here's some things I'm gonna put in place so that this never happens again and all of a sudden
[02:01:21] the attitude completely changes and the client is super happy and is all of his team also because
[02:01:26] what does that do to your team when you blame when you blame the weather your team just goes okay
[02:01:30] we got a permanent excuse now whether wasn't good c's were too big when was too high cloud
[02:01:35] cover was too low whatever the case maybe you got a permanent excuse now because you can't control
[02:01:38] the weather actually wrong wrong we they control the weather we we will set up our missions we will
[02:01:45] set up our contingencies that no matter what the weather does where you do a conference the mission
[02:01:49] no matter what our big whatever wouldn't no matter what the big platform that we rely on no matter
[02:01:54] what happens with them we're gonna be in control that's how we roll get some that feedback was
[02:01:59] phenomenal and here you know saying that his client was like I've never seen anyone handle a
[02:02:03] problem I guess before you guys have done an amazing job and it's it's another example of how
[02:02:08] you're you're scared to take ownership and yet by taking ownership you're building trust
[02:02:13] you're building trust and you win it when when you take ownership and you actually get the problem
[02:02:17] solve going for speaking of ownership and taking ownership maybe I could take ownership but you know
[02:02:25] support sure be happy to how to support you know people's selves sells the path really that's what
[02:02:34] we're supporting the path right right on the path you're on the path all right if you're not on the path
[02:02:39] I'm well actually somebody requested a picture of just a sign that said please stay on the path yeah that's
[02:02:45] good yeah yeah exactly right and I was gonna say if you're not on the path we're not talking to you but if you're not on the path
[02:02:52] I'm I think we're talking to equally maybe more so I want to say more so but really if you're on the path
[02:02:59] when I'm talking to you super loud too so each I think I don't know maybe we'll think about that
[02:03:04] more later we'll go into origin right our company origin main dot com geese rash guard for
[02:03:15] jujitsu lathe talked about jujitsu earlier awesome stuff yeah origin makes the best stuff it's uh
[02:03:21] I've got I think I have like five different you you have the first origin guy I ever
[02:03:28] touched was yours I never echo you as well yeah interesting and I was like dang yeah it was
[02:03:34] it was it the mustard and yeah and the real when you see the weave like on the origin geese they're pattern
[02:03:41] there you can understand you're gonna get so do you have do you have currently do you have any
[02:03:46] other geese that are not origin I have three geese I have one non origin geese okay two origin
[02:03:51] go put that on took put that on and and he says like is a threat put that on see what happens
[02:03:58] boy you would have an emserious could I put on mine I was like oh should I keep this or
[02:04:02] no I put on you know one of my old house like bro I can't I can't wear this like it doesn't
[02:04:06] it's not great don't it those geese I even even at the at the white belt level I can totally tell
[02:04:12] that I roll better in my origin geese oh yes that's that's a whole button well I said that's
[02:04:17] what they felt good he's rolling bad I'm telling you no but there's someone about like the it
[02:04:22] it actually has give to my shoulders I can move in a way that like I with my other geese it's
[02:04:27] it's really tight I can't move and I feel like I don't I actually I seem to be more
[02:04:32] personal and what percentage of increased performance do you achieve wearing an origin
[02:04:38] at least 9% at least thank you no good I actually that is a good point because I had a geese
[02:04:43] like my second geese ever and I was like hey that one looks cool because it had like cool designs
[02:04:47] on it or whatever and it was like thick material for some reason I thought that beefy thick
[02:04:51] material look cool so I got it and it I'm not gonna I'm not gonna name the name of the brand
[02:04:58] so doesn't matter but um yeah when I'm rolling it it feels like more claustrophobic like with
[02:05:03] which we know you have an issue with like did before yeah back in the old days yeah did I
[02:05:08] carry you across the fact I think you were a country that took you to the cure of my class I was rolling
[02:05:13] Andy and we were on with the geese and I was trying to do like a crazy whatever
[02:05:20] lapel not lapel what's the what's the down here like the bottom part of the jacket yeah this is
[02:05:25] so I had Andy and I was trying I was almost just working something and I couldn't I didn't have
[02:05:30] enough jacket out and I was like I was pratoon like I'm an average and make you a thing for you
[02:05:37] but it was the where for him to wear him to wear him to wear a ball with yes exactly and then he was
[02:05:42] doing you know how people drag your jacket and they get between your leg on a single you know what I mean
[02:05:46] just and he's doing he's like that's his game right now and I told him I'm gonna make I have
[02:05:53] origin make a geek from the fence corner so you can grab it so we're gonna rest Taylor tier we
[02:05:57] gotta do it but that makes sense though if you roll better like if you're feeling like you're
[02:06:02] kind of straight check I'm not saying other brands feel like straight check I'm not saying that but I'm
[02:06:06] saying if you have a specific feeling while you're rolling and it's impulsively you're
[02:06:11] the fit of it makes all the troops from it and if you forget like it's not very flexible it's
[02:06:15] it's awesome and it definitely improves your game and it helps you and you look good by the way
[02:06:20] said no also speaking of looking good and feeling good and comfort they do have joggers and
[02:06:26] t-shirts and whatnot most comfortable joggers still today in my experience which is means a lot
[02:06:31] are you getting jogger to wear this jogger? I think joggers yeah even though this is going to be the
[02:06:36] undisputed champion of comfort according to kind of sorry and and rash guards I wear I wear
[02:06:44] the rash guard when I'm working out some days the days I wear it when I'm working out it's long
[02:06:49] sleeve is when I'm doing a lot of stuff on the rings so my arms don't get all chafed up which is a
[02:06:54] comfort move if you break it down just saying yeah well let me finish that let's say the results
[02:07:01] of not having the rash guard imp or impedes or gets in the way of your functionality or something
[02:07:07] like this you know you know how like like some people who wear straps or they'll wear
[02:07:13] I don't know what it oh like some of the 10 of full power lifting suit yeah yeah yeah like
[02:07:20] full thing yeah but that's more of like in it I don't know it's someone else has to put your belt on
[02:07:26] you you know what I'm saying when you're like heaving there's two or three people trying to
[02:07:30] heav the belt in a position yeah yeah I guess no I'm thinking more because like
[02:07:34] compare that to your rash guard scenario right it's like something something that's going to like
[02:07:39] you know people wear those things on their hands so they don't get blisters right so the blisters
[02:07:43] sure you could power through it but if it was measurable what it get in the way of the performance
[02:07:48] the blister if you do rip a call us which sometimes people post rip call us and and I get it like
[02:07:54] you got a good workout in but guess what your tomorrow's workout is not going to be as good
[02:07:58] especially if you think tomorrow the dead list with the rip call us from pull ups
[02:08:01] it's a bad thing you need to go back for some may it's a make sure you don't let this
[02:08:06] call us it's a good question is I'm stoked you got after it but I'm not stoked in the next
[02:08:11] day when you're like not being able to yeah so let's say they work gloves or in your case you
[02:08:16] wear the rash guards is that technically for comfort or is it for you know if you're a state
[02:08:22] functionality yeah yeah yeah I don't I don't know if I could see fit to say that I've witnessed you
[02:08:28] do anything for comfort as far as getting after it goes okay let's go on yeah keep note yeah
[02:08:35] we'll keep looking for now and also what supplements the jacquoise supplements jacquoise
[02:08:40] let's up let's see we got joint warfare we got acrylic oil we got discipline
[02:08:47] joint warfare and krill oils for your joints and now surprisingly alternate fact
[02:08:56] curcumin is also good for your brain function apparently which I could use all the help I can get
[02:09:04] you sure I just I just got an order in a new new replacement order in for some krill oil
[02:09:10] and join warfers yeah wait you're on the discipline trainer now I'm on the discipline train
[02:09:15] I get it this moment I see you got some discipline right at this moment unfortunately I lost
[02:09:19] discipline earlier yeah do this is weird lack of discipline yeah yeah like he he he he made
[02:09:24] discipline and then he lost his discipline I mixed up a huge bottle of discipline of jacquoise house
[02:09:29] and then as we were leaving the come here I'm like what the hell did I do with it I was like
[02:09:33] wait where is your discipline I think your dog is probably getting after it now just like
[02:09:38] a level 19 but you got a back though I see so that's good yeah mulk can't forget about the mulk
[02:09:46] which is the tastiest of all tasties best so this is comfort so you this is a comfort yeah
[02:09:50] yes it's a good is true and I'll be honest with you now maybe I burn myself out of meant
[02:09:56] but I've been going I've been going Richter on TV yeah and then I haven't tried these yet I
[02:10:01] will only have I've got metchak with jacquoise yet that I will go get some out of your
[02:10:04] bit so that you're okay so the chocolate or the peanut butter chocolate comes in right
[02:10:09] oh big hype we're talking about it when's it coming it's supposed to come in this one week
[02:10:13] it took what if you days later whatever big hype comes in everyone's fired up I'm one of those people
[02:10:18] so I'm like boom so I'm pounding uh chocolate peanut butter now pounding it mulk train full
[02:10:23] speed double mulk train it so after a while I'm pounding the peanut butter you know one and
[02:10:29] then I look and I still have that mint one one day I go in I'm gonna make it I see the mint one
[02:10:35] and the mint one it looked like it was looking at me like what did you forget about me you know like
[02:10:38] I was cheating on the mint like I'd left the mint you know so I put the mint one back in and
[02:10:45] I was reminded that that is my favorite one yeah yeah I but they taste good yeah see it's kind of like
[02:10:54] it's kind of like um it's it's ridiculous yeah it's ridiculous that you can just completely eat that
[02:11:01] and just enjoy it yeah my son has been posted I've been re-threading it someone's been posting like
[02:11:06] mulk recipes oh yeah and it are all these different ideas I haven't tried any of them yet because
[02:11:12] I just that's not my thing what do we just put it straight in milk oh no I just put it milk but this
[02:11:17] guy is creating like like cookies ball cookies all kinds of crazy mulk conventions and they look good
[02:11:25] and he's saying they taste good so I don't know I'll give him a try what you do is or what I
[02:11:31] wound up doing is because peanut butter is like in my opinion undiable thing in life peanut butter
[02:11:38] the flavor so the mint chocolate does so I put the peanut butter it's actual peanut butter
[02:11:44] sometimes you can mix one scoop one scoop you know peanut butter chocolate and the mint chocolate
[02:11:48] cool but you've done that oh yeah I'm not all dead that's like crossing the streams and ghost
[02:11:53] busters oh yeah and you know that's how they want the movie that's how they defeated the bed
[02:11:58] that they crosses street so yeah the cream shall stand out of there she do is you put
[02:12:05] peanut butter with the milk one that's do that report back okay if you want hey would at this time
[02:12:12] invite everyone to the immersion camp but it's sold out so I'm sorry uh sign up next year early
[02:12:18] and come hang out with us at the immersion camp check yes also good way to just to support
[02:12:25] jocco has a store it's called jocco store and this is where you can get a peril a peril school right
[02:12:34] yeah fashion is not not cool okay we're in a fashion okay cool a peril but if you want to
[02:12:39] represent it has not well we're doing all right there you go but you will look fashionable if you
[02:12:46] accept the term national jocco doesn't it yeah oh good you look good though I think I don't know
[02:12:51] that's a matter of opinion but if you want to represent that's where you can get shirts rash cards
[02:12:56] hats joccer hats namely joccer hat or flex fit where you at joccer hat see there you go dang
[02:13:06] when the flex fit oh yeah interesting I'm not against it I'm not gonna report back
[02:13:11] I want to know what sells more trucker hat or or flex fit that's an interesting question
[02:13:18] I'll find out what you're doing on that and also got a long comment about hoodies a guy from
[02:13:24] Michigan that works construction said hey jocco just let you know in Michigan we do need
[02:13:32] like wait hoodies oh boom so now I can look everything I've ever said has been disproven now this is
[02:13:39] one man's opinion yes you know well here's the thing about that when you kind of did take a
[02:13:44] step back it's like you you just went extreme you weren't wrong you just went extreme that's all
[02:13:49] you know you don't have to do the balance so this guy in Michigan he had the balance because he
[02:13:56] knows the extreme he knows about the value of the thing who he's in Michigan I gotta say for the
[02:14:00] folks in Michigan though like being up there in North Dakota doing to work like when you go to
[02:14:04] Alaska and you you know it's like pretty cool out and you got your jacket on he's looking
[02:14:09] on there's dudes like T-shirts just hanging out that's where it was it's all relative yeah so
[02:14:13] here's like two like in Maine just where I just where I have he sweatshirt all day long I mean
[02:14:18] all winter long maybe I've occasionally got to throw on some kind of a parka and you know what a
[02:14:23] park is being from Hawaii not sounds yeah so what you do with your car right on the
[02:14:29] Chalker hat flex foot debate out like flex foot I think is great I like flex flex foot hats
[02:14:34] but I will say I got a large melon and being able to adjust is important no particularly when
[02:14:41] you're fishing and you're rolling out and your hat gets blown off and it's then it's so
[02:14:45] can what are they like the largest melon I've ever seen on a human there was a guy on the special
[02:14:51] boat teams who was a great dude he was a big I'll just say Polynesian maybe he was Filipino maybe
[02:14:59] he was Polynesian I don't know but he was something like that right Pacific Islander I guess
[02:15:04] he's head was so big okay you know a protect helmet you know a protect helmet it's a
[02:15:09] protect bike helmet he had one of those for for riding in the boat for like doing operations where
[02:15:15] you got to wear helmet he had one of those and he had all the foam inside of it all of it was gone
[02:15:23] and we still had to like basically grease up his head get that thing on this and it would be
[02:15:29] it was crazy how big his head was huge and he was a great dude but he had a huge head
[02:15:34] he had no protection he just had a little thin he only wore that thing because it was a part of
[02:15:38] the rules right Pacific Islander yeah he could have just called he could have looked I don't need
[02:15:42] to helmet my freaking head helmet knife into thick get away from me I get away from the stupid
[02:15:48] helmet on people all right so he would need the flex fit you know a lot of flex in that fit
[02:15:54] he need a lot of flex in that fit I don't think the truck would fit nonetheless anyway like I said
[02:15:58] jockel store dot com so we can get all this cool my opinion cool stuff so when you made a
[02:16:04] lot of stuff too new stuff is on there yeah jockel white tea there's a shirt so my brother has a
[02:16:10] Pepsi shirt and a garbage or a garbage pale kids yes you know the little cards they're like so
[02:16:17] my twin brother jay he has a garbage pale kid shirt and you'd think as an adult you're like all right
[02:16:25] but it kind of you know it's kind of cool it's cool shirt and then you get it your Pepsi shirt like
[02:16:31] even if you don't drink pepper it just looks cool right so we got a jockel white tea shirt
[02:16:35] so that was not I thought I actually gave you credit in my mind for having an original cool
[02:16:41] because I thought I didn't think it look pretty cool it's yeah and the thing is it does the
[02:16:44] the fact is that concept is a very cool concept I didn't do it because hey Pepsi do it so let's do it
[02:16:49] that's not why I did it let's think that that that concept is cool right oh you don't jockel white
[02:16:53] tea let me get the shirt and it's a tea shirt we call those layers anyway yes some new stuff on there
[02:17:00] oh check out check also good way to support is to subscribe to the podcast if you have
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[02:17:14] just subscribe that's a good way to support leave a review and you know you want your kids to listen
[02:17:19] to this podcast but you know you can't because sometimes it's completely inappropriate but for that
[02:17:24] reason we have the warrior kid podcast and that's questions from Uncle Jake or for Uncle Jake
[02:17:30] and so you can get that one to the YouTube we also have a YouTube channel that you can subscribe to
[02:17:37] hey subscribe you know what let's not do this you never watch a YouTube video and they
[02:17:41] end at the end it goes please subscribe and click whatever right click we're not going to do that
[02:17:46] yeah we're not going to do that when you think about it and I don't want to go into a whole
[02:17:50] deep thing here but it seems like as a consumer right that's it is an audience member of
[02:17:56] you or a video is whatever you and it does defeat the whole purpose of clicking like right when you
[02:18:02] like let me ask you how many people do you think get the end of a YouTube video or it says click
[02:18:06] subscribe now to watch more awesome videos how many people does that convince push them over the
[02:18:10] edge and they just can't stop that I don't know but from what I've read before it's like they
[02:18:17] recommend that like that you do that as a content creator is what they call it they say yeah
[02:18:23] hey just ask because people do it kind of thing it's kind of like hey you can't get it if you don't
[02:18:27] ask but it does kind of give you this kind of underlying feeling of like you're asking me to do
[02:18:33] something that's made to be organic it's made to be if you like this video you press like that's
[02:18:39] what that thing is made for and now you're asking me to violate that whole reason that it's made
[02:18:44] so you want me to do it like favor like you like I was watching your video because I thought we were
[02:18:49] just cool I thought we were just having a little moment right a little two minute and 30 second
[02:18:55] moments and then I get to the end of it and now you're coming out saying that I need to do this to
[02:18:59] do that this was now I see what it was it was a setup and I'm not saying that's what people are
[02:19:05] doing I'm not saying that's what you're doing if you're doing that I'm just saying as a consumer
[02:19:10] or as a viewer that's what it kind of feels like well we'll try to avoid that try to do it by just
[02:19:15] saying hey on this podcast go there and subscribe to it that way you won't get bothered with a little
[02:19:20] thing from echo at the end that says please click subscribe to watch more videos from echo
[02:19:25] child i still hear let's put it this way the most the most i'll show you say accurate for like a
[02:19:30] better term way to put it if you didn't know that we have a youtube channel we do if you didn't know
[02:19:39] you could subscribe to it boom now you do if you want to subscribe you can but that goes without saying
[02:19:45] obviously same thing with the like i like it that's a youtube that's you too grab to it yeah
[02:19:52] true also if you're working out you want to switch it up and talk about on it so on it dot com slash
[02:19:59] jockel here's a thing too which i kind of forget to say you get 10% off if you go to this slash
[02:20:04] jockel so go on it dot com slash jockel so when you're buying your kettlebells primal bells
[02:20:09] legend builds rings in you know better of stuff like that go on it dot com slash jockel so you
[02:20:15] can get 10% off really good stuff that good info is well psychological warfare is an album with
[02:20:21] tracks we're working on number two right now so we'll make that happen and i'm getting some good
[02:20:26] requests via the interwebs about what should be on there so iTunes Google Play MP3 platforms you can
[02:20:35] get that psychological warfare album with tracks but what is that for them we're not going to let
[02:20:43] you say it everybody knows what it's for what's it for don't you know what it's for yes it
[02:20:46] knows what it's for it's to combat those moments of weakness that we all have i'm going to make a
[02:20:51] cycle of track about how to not say something that has been said what do you do yeah some
[02:20:59] of course that's something that's not been said yeah beat a dead horse yeah i'm just saying if they if this is the first time they
[02:21:04] they heard it they're going to be like what is that psychological warfare i know what regular
[02:21:08] the traditional psychological warfare is it's kind of like if i kept saying hey jockel white
[02:21:13] tea oh you know what you can you can deadlift 8000 pounds and i kept saying that over and over again
[02:21:17] and never stop saying it that'd be kind of like what you're doing yeah but so it seems like it
[02:21:21] from your perspective but from the perspective someone just tuning in not just turning it over 130
[02:21:27] podcasts the here's the thing they started where if they did they'll go listen to another one they'll
[02:21:31] hear it eventually though and then they'll start to hear it over and over again but for i'm saying
[02:21:35] as an individual count which means more in my opinion okay i think it'll be said all the match yeah that's
[02:21:42] right now no we're getting that's it i like it don't get the amazons cans you can get cans people
[02:21:49] don't know this you can get cans of jockel white tea it's stop drinking other energy drinks that are
[02:21:55] filled with sugar and other crap and get yourself jockel white tea this so you know how there's
[02:22:00] these pre-workouts yeah right you know pre-workout uh thing is right it's like super like it's
[02:22:06] i don't know a pre-workout sorry but i know a pre-workout sorry you know what i'm talking about right
[02:22:12] the one they have like a bunch of caffeine whatever the label is real shiny a lot of the time
[02:22:18] you know what i'm talking about oh you know what you mean with ones that have a light label that's really
[02:22:21] shite yeah i never got a light label but i don't know a lot of that yeah all right so let me ask you this
[02:22:28] if i have a jockel white tea in a can yeah it's cold yeah right very refreshing
[02:22:34] and then i put some of that energy uh pre-workout in it since it doesn't have that much caffeine
[02:22:39] and i was maybe looking for some caffeine if i put that pre-workout stuff in the in the jockel white tea
[02:22:45] how much of a violation is that on a skill from one to ten i don't think it's a violation but
[02:22:49] i would just use discipline you can put discipline in jockel white tea but that's just another
[02:22:54] micro dose of caffeine though i don't want caffeine but i would record right oi tea that's the thing
[02:22:59] sure there's tastes got jammed up there's 60 milligrams of caffeine in jockel white tea can't
[02:23:04] that's that's enough let's say hypothetically again hypothetically one was looking for more than
[02:23:09] 60 milligrams get get Greek fire okay so you know Greek fire us yeah or Greek fire from origin
[02:23:21] which has caffeine in it it's like a it's like a fat burner right so if you get that that's just
[02:23:28] caffeine in it and it'll get you it'll get you what you need all right so the violation level four
[02:23:34] yes sure i i drink a lot of coffee and a lot of caffeine and yeah that's jockel white tea's got
[02:23:40] plenty of caffeine for me it's a legit i'll tell you what i like about it with a cans of it would
[02:23:44] take care well it's been crazy hot and Texas summer yeah and just just pull it with freezing cold
[02:23:50] one out of the if i'm out of the jockel my truck that's you know 125 degrees from sitting out of the
[02:23:55] sun and crack up in a super cold roll around the road it's pretty legit you're still alive my
[02:24:01] low i got to make it you know i got to make is i got to make something that like this that you
[02:24:05] can drink before you go to bed at night oh yeah just because because i can't i mean i want
[02:24:09] some of them since seven or eight o'clock at night and i think i'm gonna crack one open but then
[02:24:14] i think now then i'll be all fired up all night yeah yeah what like you put some sort of um
[02:24:21] because there's like you know tea what he called the tea that you brew before bed makes you smell
[02:24:26] yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah kind of that yeah yeah kind of a male tea oh wow you know what we got
[02:24:31] situation here let me comment in strong for the tea you made your you made your bread no
[02:24:37] tell me you don't know all about tea i didn't know about what is it camera meal
[02:24:41] yeah look at you yeah so you could take that apology right you could you could call it
[02:24:47] so we could on jockel can a meal tea oh you know you could call it that if you want yeah
[02:24:51] i would probably just call it like well i'll figure something out but i will do that
[02:24:55] because I do need something at night, warm, hot in the summertime,
[02:24:59] or hot in the wintertime, but you could drink a cold that's tasty.
[02:25:02] Because that's the thing about the, the jokalway tea is the taste is good.
[02:25:06] Like we had this, I thought we were going with this,
[02:25:08] if you had a can of jokalway tea and a can of the most sweet,
[02:25:14] like, like, doctored up thing that's supposed to taste delicious,
[02:25:19] which would you pick?
[02:25:19] I picked jokalway tea all day long because the taste is, you know,
[02:25:23] when you, you know when you realize that gatorade,
[02:25:26] no offense against gatorade, no, a little bit of offense-gure.
[02:25:28] You know when you realize that gatorade doesn't actually
[02:25:31] quench your thirst, like when you're, I don't know,
[02:25:35] I think I was 20, right?
[02:25:38] And I was real thirsty and I drank a gatorade,
[02:25:40] and I was like, why am I still thirsty?
[02:25:41] Yeah, yeah.
[02:25:42] That because there's syrup in there or whatever,
[02:25:44] doesn't work good.
[02:25:46] Jokalway tea, you get that quench.
[02:25:47] Not like it, that's a quench, go on.
[02:25:49] Well, this for back to the, or the pre workout mix
[02:25:53] in the tea scenario, this person that we're talking about
[02:25:57] didn't finish it because it did jump up the whole tea scenario.
[02:26:01] Okay.
[02:26:02] It was like a theory.
[02:26:03] Very cool.
[02:26:03] Check.
[02:26:05] There it is, boom.
[02:26:07] Jokalway tea, outstanding.
[02:26:09] Hey, books, we got way of the warrior kid books,
[02:26:12] way of the warrior kid, and Mark's mission.
[02:26:15] Those are good books for kids to read.
[02:26:18] Just talking to a teacher out in the gym,
[02:26:21] teaching the book, eighth grade, if you're wondering
[02:26:23] about how old is an eighth grader?
[02:26:26] 11, 12, 11, 12.
[02:26:28] Yes.
[02:26:29] So 11, 12 year old, definitely in the same team.
[02:26:31] Sometimes when I meet someone and their kid is eight
[02:26:34] or 10, I just think your kids in the zone.
[02:26:37] And they did get so way the warrior kid and Mark's mission.
[02:26:40] I just started reading the way the warrior kid to my son.
[02:26:43] Does he get a history, right?
[02:26:45] Is he getting it?
[02:26:46] We got about 30 pages into it.
[02:26:48] He was so fired up.
[02:26:49] And he wanted to go out and disobey all of a sudden.
[02:26:52] It's funny.
[02:26:53] They get certain parts.
[02:26:54] Right.
[02:26:55] The grander kind of messages may not compute quite yet,
[02:26:59] but they'll get certain parts.
[02:27:00] So they'll like when this part comes.
[02:27:02] Yeah.
[02:27:03] It's keep doing it.
[02:27:04] Stoke to the feedback on that one.
[02:27:05] Also, just funnacles freedom field manual.
[02:27:08] It's a manual about how to get after it.
[02:27:11] And the audio version is not unautable.
[02:27:13] It's on iTunes, Amazon, music, Google play,
[02:27:15] and other MP3 platforms.
[02:27:17] So you can make it a specifically.
[02:27:19] We did that.
[02:27:20] Yeah.
[02:27:20] Maybe took a little financial hit.
[02:27:22] Whatever, want people to be able to use it as an alarm clock
[02:27:26] in their phone or a ringtone.
[02:27:28] So that's what you can do there.
[02:27:30] Those are a few books.
[02:27:34] Then we got the McGutt Extreme Ownership, obviously,
[02:27:37] which Jack went out for three years now.
[02:27:40] We have a new addition out.
[02:27:42] And of course, that caught me a leadership,
[02:27:44] which we were just talking about.
[02:27:46] And that's for it's available now for pre-order.
[02:27:49] It'll be released September 25th.
[02:27:51] Super excited about that.
[02:27:52] Looking forward to all your readers out there
[02:27:55] providing some feedback on that.
[02:27:57] And I hope this is at least as useful to you
[02:28:01] in your life's professional and personal lives
[02:28:03] as Extreme Ownership.
[02:28:04] So go get some dichotomy leadership, find the balance.
[02:28:08] You also, Dave, talk to me about the difference
[02:28:13] between first edition and let's say fifth edition of a book,
[02:28:18] which would you rather have?
[02:28:21] Which would I rather have?
[02:28:24] Yeah.
[02:28:25] I'd have to go with the first edition.
[02:28:27] That's right.
[02:28:28] That's sort of a standard.
[02:28:29] Yeah, it's the standard.
[02:28:30] Is there anyone running around going, man?
[02:28:31] I wish I had the night to this.
[02:28:32] Yeah, can't wait for that fourth edition.
[02:28:36] That is pretty cool with Extreme Ownership,
[02:28:37] with people still come up to us and have,
[02:28:41] with the, and the original paper,
[02:28:44] this was printed on was not very good for Extreme Ownership.
[02:28:47] It doesn't have the,
[02:28:49] and it doesn't have the number one New York Times best set
[02:28:51] across the top.
[02:28:52] So every once we still see some of those,
[02:28:54] you know, like, wow, that's a,
[02:28:55] that was a first printing run.
[02:28:57] I just, it's pretty cool.
[02:28:58] I just did that the other day.
[02:28:59] So a girl came up and I was signing her first edition.
[02:29:03] And there's four editions that you could possibly have.
[02:29:06] There's more than that.
[02:29:07] But the first one that came out is white,
[02:29:09] and there's no stick around.
[02:29:11] As soon as that made New York Times best set,
[02:29:13] they went and got stickers.
[02:29:14] It says number one New York Times best set,
[02:29:15] and they put them everywhere,
[02:29:16] because it's an advertising gig, right?
[02:29:18] But there's, so the people that got the first 10,000 copies,
[02:29:22] it's just a plain first dish.
[02:29:25] So I know there's people.
[02:29:28] And then you got, then they got the stickers on it.
[02:29:30] So you're still early.
[02:29:31] Then you got the one that actually has printed
[02:29:33] on the cover, number one New York Times best set,
[02:29:36] and then finally we get to the fourth,
[02:29:39] the fourth version, which is the black cover,
[02:29:43] back in black, which is,
[02:29:44] we have to say that one's pretty cool.
[02:29:46] It's cool.
[02:29:47] It's a different color.
[02:29:47] It's a different avenue.
[02:29:49] It's coolness.
[02:29:50] Yeah, it's a different avenue of coolness.
[02:29:51] But still the first edition,
[02:29:53] we always like the first edition.
[02:29:54] And if you, so my point is, if you want the first edition,
[02:29:58] you got to order it pre.
[02:30:01] Otherwise you're going to get some other,
[02:30:03] you'll get one that says something else on it,
[02:30:04] be all different and we'll know.
[02:30:07] What do you mean?
[02:30:07] I'll just, I'll just be,
[02:30:09] I'll show you what we just signed up.
[02:30:10] Yeah.
[02:30:11] That's cool.
[02:30:11] I'm glad you got in the game, eventually.
[02:30:13] Ha ha.
[02:30:15] Oh, no, I'm gonna appreciate it.
[02:30:18] That's the long front.
[02:30:21] If you're interested in coming and bringing us in,
[02:30:23] talk to your leadership team,
[02:30:25] your frontline troops, your mid-level managers,
[02:30:27] whatever it may be, that's what we do with that
[02:30:29] long front is we solve problems through leadership.
[02:30:32] Everything that we wrote about,
[02:30:33] extreme ownership, all the things that we just talked about
[02:30:35] from dichotomy leadership,
[02:30:37] is what we do.
[02:30:38] It's me and Jaco.
[02:30:39] We launched this company going on seven years now,
[02:30:43] and we worked with a lot of company sense.
[02:30:44] And now, in addition, we've got,
[02:30:47] to me and Jaco, we got JP to now,
[02:30:49] we got Dave Burke, we got Flynn Cochran,
[02:30:51] we got Mike Surelli,
[02:30:53] and we just picked up a new member of our team,
[02:30:55] Maine Gun, Mike Bahama,
[02:30:57] a company commander with us in the body outstanding,
[02:31:00] outstanding guy, awesome team of folks.
[02:31:02] And so you're interested in what we do
[02:31:05] at the International Off-Rot, go hit us up at echelonfront.com.
[02:31:08] Also, we got the Muster, which is two days leadership,
[02:31:15] conference seminar gathering,
[02:31:18] that's what I'm talking about.
[02:31:18] It's a leadership master, that's what it is.
[02:31:21] October 17th, 18th, up in San Francisco,
[02:31:24] all the other ones have sold out,
[02:31:26] this is the sixth monster,
[02:31:27] they've also sold out, this one's gonna sell out,
[02:31:29] even earlier actually.
[02:31:30] I think so.
[02:31:31] We're way ahead of schedule,
[02:31:33] you wanna come to it extremownership.com,
[02:31:35] you can come to the Muster.
[02:31:38] And then also for our military law enforcement,
[02:31:42] firefighters, Border Patrol,
[02:31:44] Paramedics, first responders, anybody in uniform,
[02:31:48] we're launching our first ever first responder, military,
[02:31:52] uniform wearing focused leadership gathering.
[02:31:56] And this is, we're calling the roll call, roll call,
[02:31:58] here's their one, first ever is gonna happen,
[02:32:01] September 21st in Dallas.
[02:32:04] And this thing is, it was by request,
[02:32:06] we worked with so many different first responders,
[02:32:10] and fire departments and law enforcement groups
[02:32:14] and police departments, federal, state, local.
[02:32:17] We were worked with all levels of these groups.
[02:32:22] And we've had so many folks say,
[02:32:23] hey, can we have a focus leadership conference just for us?
[02:32:28] And that's what this is.
[02:32:29] So we've got several hundred people already signed up for this thing.
[02:32:33] This is for you guys.
[02:32:34] This is for all you, all you,
[02:32:35] all you, you, lissor, that are interesting this.
[02:32:36] We try to make it at a price point.
[02:32:38] That was much more affordable than the Muster,
[02:32:40] so that we could, we could have as many folks attend
[02:32:43] as could come.
[02:32:45] And we hope you come from far,
[02:32:46] might be there gonna be talking about the importance
[02:32:48] of training, the importance of dealing with what you deal
[02:32:51] with every day and driving those standards
[02:32:53] and pushing your team and leading up the chain,
[02:32:58] as well as all those kind of specific law enforcement,
[02:33:03] firefighter, first responder, military focused issues,
[02:33:07] that we can really dive into.
[02:33:08] We don't have to talk about the business leader stuff
[02:33:10] because this is for you guys, that's what it's for.
[02:33:12] So if you're interested in that,
[02:33:13] if you're on the fence, if you're thinking about it,
[02:33:15] come join us for a roll call at Dallas September 21st.
[02:33:21] And of course, you've heard on this podcast,
[02:33:24] we launched a new company, a subsidiary company,
[02:33:28] to Esslon Front, it's called Esslon Front Overwatch,
[02:33:31] our EF Overwatch.
[02:33:33] And you can check that out at EFOverWatch.com.
[02:33:38] It's a great company designed to,
[02:33:42] one of the biggest things that we see
[02:33:44] from the companies who work with is people ask us,
[02:33:46] where can we get people like you?
[02:33:48] Where can we get folks from a mindset of extreme ownership?
[02:33:51] And so we started that in the Special Operations world
[02:33:54] and the goal of Overwatch is to take special operations,
[02:33:59] veterans and combat aviator veterans
[02:34:01] and place them in companies with,
[02:34:06] place them in companies who are looking for people
[02:34:09] with that mindset.
[02:34:10] And EFOverWatch is,
[02:34:13] is some I'm super excited about,
[02:34:14] we have a massive demand signal right now,
[02:34:16] frankly, we have a lot more clients
[02:34:18] that are reaching out these companies
[02:34:19] that are seeking folks to place and offer them job opportunities.
[02:34:24] And we have a lot more clients
[02:34:26] than we have on the candidate side.
[02:34:27] So if you're a Special Operator
[02:34:30] and you're about to be retired
[02:34:32] or leaving just leaving the military
[02:34:35] or I've left even a few years ago
[02:34:37] or on the combat aviation side,
[02:34:39] go to eFOverWatch.com, fill out the application there
[02:34:43] and start the paperwork
[02:34:45] because we got, there's an awesome opportunity
[02:34:48] here for some great companies
[02:34:50] with some great leadership positions
[02:34:53] and some promising promotion opportunities
[02:34:55] and some companies that exhibit extreme ownership
[02:34:58] that have that as part of their culture.
[02:34:59] So don't miss out on those opportunities,
[02:35:02] go to the website,
[02:35:03] input your information EFOverWatch.com
[02:35:05] and come get in the game.
[02:35:07] There's a lot of great work to be done,
[02:35:09] a lot of massive opportunity out there.
[02:35:11] Companies need good leaders
[02:35:14] come and get it.
[02:35:16] And until we see you at the master
[02:35:20] or we see you at roll call or receive you
[02:35:23] at the immersion camp doing those huge hits.
[02:35:26] If you wanna ask us questions
[02:35:27] or if you wanna give us answers,
[02:35:29] you can find us on the interwebs.
[02:35:32] On Instagram,
[02:35:33] Laf is at real Laf Babin on Twitter
[02:35:38] and on that Facebook,
[02:35:40] Laf is at Laf Babin
[02:35:42] and of course on all those Echo is at Echo Charles
[02:35:49] and I am at Jockawilik.
[02:35:52] Echo anything else?
[02:35:53] Negative?
[02:35:54] Laf any closing thoughts?
[02:35:56] Good to be back on with you guys again.
[02:35:59] I'll stay somebody get some.
[02:36:01] We always good to have you.
[02:36:02] And thanks to everyone for listening
[02:36:05] and supporting this podcast
[02:36:07] especially to those people
[02:36:10] that make this podcast possible.
[02:36:14] The people that make this podcast possible.
[02:36:17] And it's not some long list of sponsors
[02:36:20] that people that make this podcast possible
[02:36:22] is our military or police law enforcement,
[02:36:26] firefighters, border patrol,
[02:36:27] paramedics, other first responders.
[02:36:29] Without you protecting us from evil abroad
[02:36:33] and keeping us safe here at home,
[02:36:35] we wouldn't be able to do what we do.
[02:36:38] So thank you for doing what you do
[02:36:43] and to everyone else out there
[02:36:46] whether you are making something
[02:36:49] or baking something,
[02:36:50] whether you're serving food or serving warrants,
[02:36:54] whether you work in a bank
[02:36:56] or you build banks.
[02:36:58] If you wear a suit and tie
[02:37:00] or you wear coveralls and a hard hat
[02:37:03] no matter who you are and what you do
[02:37:06] do it to the best of your ability.
[02:37:09] Take pride in your work and be the best you can
[02:37:13] but at the same time,
[02:37:16] stay balanced.
[02:37:18] Be aggressive but not reckless.
[02:37:21] Take ownership but empower your team.
[02:37:24] Be humble but not passive.
[02:37:28] Be disciplined.
[02:37:30] But be free.
[02:37:32] Balance that I caught a meter ship
[02:37:34] and the dichotomies of life
[02:37:37] and as you do that,
[02:37:40] keep getting after it.
[02:37:43] And until next time,
[02:37:45] this is life and echo and jockel.
[02:37:48] Out.