Jocko Podcast 135 w/ Dave Berke: Supreme Excellence and Discomfort.

2018-07-25T21:13:02Z

Join the conversaion on Twitter/Instagram: @jockowillink @DavidRBerke @echocharles 0:00:00 - Opening 0:07:59 - Dave Berke on History and importance. 0:52:55 - The Mental game. 2:14:09 - Support. 2:40:40 - Closing gratitude.

AI summary of episode

but I think that that natural tendency to be exposed as as someone who doesn't know something to be exposed as someone who doesn't have all the answers to expose as a leader who doesn't know everything I'm gonna let you in a little secret everybody already knows that everybody knows that you don't know everything and if you try to act like you do it will make it ten times worse than just saying I actually don't know what to do here or I made a mistake here when you make a mistake everybody knows it your subordinates know it your peers know it your boss is know it and the worst thing you can do is to tell them that you didn't that's why being insecure in your leadership capabilities is a downward spiral because the more insecure you are the more you try and manipulate the main thing everything and keep everything under your wraps and do everything your way and that's how it is so when you're insecure as a leader and that's another that's another thing that takes a little bit of a leap of faith that's another like progression that I personally made I personally made and I can't remember when but when I was like you know what it's because and when I pulled it when I started going through hack again about Facebook and I started reading that I realized that you got to change your perspective as a leader it's not just it's not just hey because we simplify it like well if your millennials aren't doing what you want it's your fault that's that's a simplification of it because what you really got to do is you got to shift your mindset a little bit and say like what wait a second how do I take advantage of that's what hack worth was doing hack worth was same wait a second how do I take advantage these guys guess what they're going to question me if I do something wrong they're going to report things that are done correctly they're going to say no if I plan something stupid is that a bad thing let me think about it actually no that's actually not a bad thing so if you've got a millennial that's like hey if I don't like the leadership here I'm leaving the company guess what let's get that person some good leadership you got a millennial that says hey if I don't understand why we're doing what we're doing like your reading reports but you're not there mentally well look combat for me was dropping a bomb in Iraq you know and Afghanistan was a certainly more aggressive experience for me you know it was a lot more regular pace there was certainly some risk involved but you've talked about the first combat experience on this podcast a lot we've talked about just the first combat experience as well I did not really get it until I saw it and actually in some ways you could say I didn't get it till I heard it you know the sounds of combat what it really sounds like to have a bullet go past your head so close to you can actually sort of gauge how close it was to your head and whether it was closer to the guy next to you three feet away closer to you who was the sniper actually looking I've had those thoughts I know you have too so the sights of the sounds of that it's just it's hard to replicate and I've actually been in MBS you've talked about the training that you did for your guys at task in bruising some of the things you did I didn't do a lot of those things you know and I'm going to kind of sell like hey boss you know those guys aren't they're not they're not the best guys you know this is not the best team here's here's a here's a say let's call it a drill or a coaching I'll call it that a coaching when the next time you get into a situation and you write down and you take the excuses and the reasons that you come up with look at them and then figure out how they were how those things were actually your fault and or how you could have prevented them because a lot of times it's like here's here's here's one hey boss we didn't get the mission accomplished because the weather rolled in and we couldn't launch on the mission that's that's the problem now we all know that we don't control the weather so when you we'll tell you write the problem down we failed the mission because we didn't control the weather we we can't control the weather that's why we failed the mission that's my excuse that's a that's a logical reason there's that's that's a that's a legitimate excuse but don't use it what you do is you say what could I have done to have controlled the weather and the exact opposite is true and like when the people and I work for people that I despised and I despised because that how they treated me how they treated other people and it's very evident like don't be like that it doesn't work I'll be in a group of leaders you know we're doing to work with the company I've done this many times where I'll set it up with hey who here has had someone in your life as that would that that was in charge of you that invested in you and took care of you raise your hand and everyone raised their hand and or 99% of the people raise their hand if not 100% of people raise your hand because that's you know usually we're talking to leaders in the company and so the leaders have made progress somehow and they've made progress because someone at some point taught them and took them under their wing and cared about them and you you take that very seriously when you're in a position you're gonna you're gonna be one of the deciding factors in whether that person stays or goes anytime you get to that point where you're in mind like hey the best thing is to get rid of this guy and if you bring him in for this are that final interview that final interaction the guarantee way to seal your fate the guarantee way to ensure what they've already kind of concluded because that's why they're bringing you in in the first place is to not take any responsibility it's not taking any terms that is 100% guarantee now it doesn't mean that you might just not be able to you might not have the technical skills of capability sometimes you're gonna get fired and and sometimes your mistake is so agriest and does so much damage you gotta go you're gonna get fired but even then the the best thing you can do the best thing you can do is to take ownership of all that and be like hey boss I understand I'm sorry or you can go the other route and you can start to throw everybody under the bus it's just a complete nightmare it makes you wonder how any of that is is makes any of it remotely functional like how does that system function at all under that setting under that environment how could anybody at the bottom of that hierarchy be willing to go do any of the things they went and did you know you're talking about you know this thing from from Bella wood they're they literally know most of you're gonna die we're gonna charge across open fields and a machine guns we use that example at echelon front is something that you would never do and that's what they were doing I mean border line just human waves if we do it enough we're gonna get 50 75 yards of terrain out of it we're gonna move the line 400 yards and you actually execute and implement what you said you're going to do guess what you will accomplish the mission that there's a whole part of ownership that pre-empts the problem if you've got someone that knows if I know that I can make an excuse if I know that I can make an excuse think that's what I'm not gonna set things up properly if I don't set things up properly more often or more often than the other way I will fail to execute what I'm supposed to execute if you have an excuse right same same thing with you as an individual human being if you as an individual human being if you got some excuses that you can throw out there that you can say I had no control over that then you know what you say okay I read the the preface out loud to myself and having had read it three four times I'm just hearing it it was like reading it for the first time the the voice that you give that makes it makes the words become real like a like that person wrote the book is saying out loud and that difference there it's not subtle it's huge it's a huge huge thing that that is one of the great things about when people do it when they do it on podcasts and you're putting somebody else's voice in action most of the time reading books by people that are long gone and you're telling stories that nobody would ever hear and even if you read them it misses something it's it's what you're not doing I think like if you know like I see what you're doing I see you're doing there using your little chocolate tricks all this stuff that's not the influential part you're not doing you know it's so funny now because everyone I deal with now every single person that I deal with on any level on any on any depth at all they all know all my little tricks as you call them they all know every every person I'm involved with knows them all yeah we use the analogy a lot we talk about this in our front and like hey it your folks when you're pushing your folks too hard it's like it's like driving a car in the red you you're running this car in the red you're running hard and if you keep them in the red too long that car is gonna break and then just gonna break now you can you can push to the red a little bit you can kind of throttle up it and and do that and I felt that several times in my career and the response to it is it's all the same and one of the best things about responding to those situations is that as a leader you're really busy there's a lot to do you you've got a lot going on a lot of decision you have to make a lot of things you have to be aware of and that's actually one of the best remedies for all that and you know it's probably really tough for someone it really junior in the organization that may feel like it doesn't know what's going on doesn't have a real sense of those things I was never really bored so if you just kind of do the math it's just not a lot of time everything I think about every leadership lesson every when I hear you talk about a book when I read a book when I think all of those things the frame of reference I have the thing I think about is those seven months and had I not had those seven months of and look Ramadi obviously was it was a maddening place it was crazy but if I didn't have that I don't think I would be able to appreciate or understand and without that frame of reference without that understanding of some connection to that it actually makes it difficult and I would have never guessed it if I would have tell you hey I'm going to look back on my 23 year career and all those things I heard you listen to my bio it's always strange here someone read it out the the the the the the most powerful thing in that was seven months in Ramadi that's a thing that outshines all of it because of what you just described because of that feeling so so the sledgehammer for me I mean I will never forget the day on the ever forget June 20th ever the sledgehammer for me was the first day I got there the guy that I was replacing got in a humvee hit an ID he was woony buddy broke both of his legs in a humvee that I was supposed to take from him we were supposed to do the turnover of that humvee and obviously not getting that vehicle because it got blown up but it was a major in the Marine Corps and it was like majors and a major aviator in the Marine Corps got blown up by an ID so I got up to speed very quickly and that place had an ability to get you to be aware of the reality but very fast so I think I got there very fast day one something happened but the anticipation of that getting there that was kind of a sledgehammer for me what about reading reports when you're going in so I we talked about the last time my best friend was in Ramadi Neil and I think the power that is huge and it brought me right back to our last podcast which was you sitting right where you are reading cats letter to Chris and as it like I said like I had never heard it before it was it's a totally different level you know what podcasts was another podcast that sort of it got me was one soldier's war by arcadey and that part in the end of that podcast where it's again that was podcast number 18 it was it was a good solid deployment was there a risk sure there was risky wasn't super high risk I had had a great crew of guys but you know there was there was stress and there was personalities and you start to see that when you read about a guy and you think I kind of know that guy just I just know him a little bit I just know him a little bit yeah just like a draft just like a drafty and when when we see it in in leaders all the time they they present it like can't leave these people this is unsolvable problem it is a problem that the end we're we're going downhill it's supersonic speeds and when you do what you just said and turn it change that perspective and then put it in comparison to the story of the drafties they're almost a little embarrassed but when you read it it's maddening to think about that and you could see that like hack worth he didn't like that he didn't like that at all and that was all that was I think maybe it was you that told me when I had Jim Mucchiamon and or a couple people told me they were like you sounded giddy so then you guys always talking in context of business you know the boss and the support and that's whatever same exact thing with your wife same thing even though it feels like counter intuitive you know you're you you had all this stuff to do that you're doing for her by the way and you didn't take out the trash I don't know I'm not saying that happened to me not saying it didn't happen to me and so that's the first podcast where I said when I got done with it the next time I did a podcast that was heavy like that I knew that I had to get myself somewhere to go I had to give myself some thought about how am I gonna make this how does this become something I like I don't get out of this whole because that's what that's what you're doing and so there's a level of that as well when you hear like when you hear a hardcore history podcast you get a great storytelling oh no I knew all this at birth it's from these giant errors that we've made or giant mistakes where these giant realizations like I've been doing it wrong and everybody has to figure that out and that and that right there that is one of the most gratifying things about what we do now is that this gap that we talked about earlier this little gap between like how do you read something you read something and then how do you get that thing out of it how do you extract that vital piece of information that's in there how do you do that how do you tell look it looks like when you're kidding you don't listen to your parents so it's almost like you're getting worse you know if you do the math like now at level four out of a million you're like there you just like yesterday there was only four moves Yeah, and the language is different and if you just hear the words it sounds like a completely different world and then when you think about what he's saying I know exactly what you can you can feel what he's feeling and it comes through so so clearly and and I've read letters like that. and that's probably why if I look back in my career the thing that's the most powerful experience that I had that sort of outshines everything by so much is is that time in Rammadi because I was exposed to things that I never saw as a pilot and never would have seen had I not been on that deployment you know what I was thinking so one of the things I remember probably I don't know if it was 10 or 15 podcasts deep into into this podcast I remember saying during one of the podcasts and I've said it a few times along the way I remember saying that these people that I'm talking about in these books they're not characters two emphasize what you said that eyes opening that's a literal thing like they're not of metaphor you look at them and when you finally get it to click when you when their eyes actually open up and they sit up straight and they kind of sit back a little bit and there is a moment a physical moment are you recognize that they got it and when you see that and you can actually sit in an audience when you when you when you're talking to a group like maybe multiple leaders on the team and you're around a conference table and you're interacting and you bring up a particular example that they're dealing with you lay out the different possible scenarios and the one that is obviously the right one and they go yeah you said something that that jumped out of me a little bit you were you were just talking about you know is is is culture different it is something different so let me just say this a little bit because you know I've even thought a little bit about why do I see things differently than I used to what why have I evolved in a certain way so did I spent 23 years in the Marine Corps 23 years as a US Marine and a whole bunch of years just wanting to be a Marine I was in Ramadi for seven months but he's like going through the motions almost like like kind of kind of understanding you know

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Episode transcript

[00:00:00] This is Jockel Podcast number 135 with echo Charles and me, Jockel willing. Good evening,
[00:00:07] echo. Good evening. Dear Mrs. Speering, there is grief in my heart and in the hearts
[00:00:21] of all my comrades for the great sorrow that this war has brought to you and to us.
[00:00:29] We all unite to express our heartfelt sympathy and condolence to the mother and family of
[00:00:36] one who has fallen in a cause as imperishable as will be the names of those who have fallen
[00:00:43] to defend it.
[00:00:46] Should there be anything my comrades and I can do to mitigate your grief and to delay your
[00:00:54] sorrow. Some little keep sake of Walt as a Marine perhaps, but name it dear Lady and
[00:01:05] it shall traverse the ocean to you. Because you do not know me, please do not think
[00:01:12] it presumptuous for me to write. You are Walter's mother. I was his inseparable friend
[00:01:22] and comrade. That makes us two kindered souls in common grief for our nearest and
[00:01:30] dearest. Then too, this letter fulfills my duty that I am bound by oath and will to perform.
[00:01:41] Many months ago, Walt and I promised each other that should the God of battles called
[00:01:47] to one. The other would console the sorrowing mother.
[00:01:55] Now Walt has gone west to home and to you forever. But his figure, his voice, his wonderful
[00:02:04] personality will always be living truths to me. I myself should the great call come will
[00:02:15] go gladly. Confident of a reunion and with faith in the eternal truth of that cause for
[00:02:23] which I die. Beneath the green and bellow woods forever connected to the honor of the
[00:02:33] Marines lies Walt with his two comrades dead on the field of honor. Above their graves
[00:02:44] the stately pines sway in their grandeur and imperishable monument. But greatest of all epitaphs
[00:02:56] is that engraved within the hearts of his comrades. A man then whom there was no peer.
[00:03:03] In kindness, in understanding, in comradeship, beyond compare. We alone know what could have been
[00:03:20] had circumstances so wielded. Whatever befall, whatever sorrow fills us.
[00:03:29] One thing I swear to you here, hard by that lonely grave, the very paper that I write upon,
[00:03:38] taken in a captured German dugout. I swear that Walt is well avenged that he has died not
[00:03:48] in vain for his spirit leads us on to ultimate victory. You are proud. I know for you are the mother
[00:04:01] of a martyr, a martyr in a holy cause, freedom and liberty. Do you lady, the very thought that
[00:04:18] you are in grief, tears my heart, do not sorrow. Death after all is not so terrible and here,
[00:04:33] why here, it is glorious, mother. In the name of the 23rd company, in the name of the Marines,
[00:04:46] I salute you and all my comrades salute you, devotedly. Sol, seagull.
[00:05:02] That was a letter written by Sol Seagull. It was an O333 heavy machine gunner. He was 20 years old.
[00:05:23] When he wrote that letter at the grave side of his Marine Corps brother, Walter Spearing was his
[00:05:33] name, who was from Philadelphia, who had been amongst the earliest of the Marines to ship over
[00:05:38] the war. Who was one of the 1,800 and 11 Americans killed at the Battle of Belowood.
[00:05:53] He started a turning hand in theiramente, restart racing, gallons of銀 ranging from unite of
[00:06:18] And it's a letter that captures so many different aspects of war and in capturing different
[00:06:30] aspects of war it teaches us.
[00:06:37] teaches us about leadership it teaches us about human nature teaches us about suffering it
[00:06:43] teaches us about death and it teaches us about life.
[00:06:54] And tonight back here again to talk to us about all those different subject as a marine
[00:07:04] that I was honored to serve with on the battlefield and who I am now honored to work with
[00:07:09] once again on a different front.
[00:07:15] His name is Dave Burke.
[00:07:17] He's been on the podcast before already.
[00:07:21] So if you haven't heard that one it was podcast number 69 and you should listen to that
[00:07:26] one first to hear about Dave's incredible background as a Marine Corps F-18 fighter pilot
[00:07:33] F-16 pilot F-22 pilot F-35 pilot top gun pilot top gun instructor top gun senior instructor
[00:07:41] and of course Anglico team leader on the ground with us in the battle of Ramadi.
[00:07:49] And if you've listened to podcast 69 then you can hear all about that and tonight
[00:07:55] a little deeper on all these different subjects.
[00:07:59] Dave thanks for coming back on the show.
[00:08:02] Thanks, Chuck.
[00:08:03] I'm stuck to be here, man.
[00:08:08] You just find these letters like that and it's incredible.
[00:08:13] I know I was like, hey, read this and you know your reactions like this is a 20 year old
[00:08:17] marine.
[00:08:18] Is it a different time?
[00:08:21] Is it the language as different back then?
[00:08:24] Yeah, and the language is different and if you just hear the words it sounds like a completely
[00:08:31] different world and then when you think about what he's saying I know exactly what you
[00:08:36] can you can feel what he's feeling and it comes through so so clearly and and I've read
[00:08:42] letters like that.
[00:08:43] I've heard you read letters like that.
[00:08:45] I've seen letters like that and I've written a letter like that.
[00:08:50] It didn't sound that eloquent.
[00:08:54] But I know that feeling and it's incredible that after all this time how powerful that
[00:08:57] comes through man it was that's awesome.
[00:09:01] As you and this is another thing that you and I were talking about these lessons that
[00:09:08] exists in history, in literature and and it's funny because it's it's things that are
[00:09:15] written by privates, it's things that are written by corpus, it's things that are written
[00:09:19] by majors and kernels and generals and it's things that are written by emperors and it's
[00:09:24] things that are written by conscripts and everything in between.
[00:09:30] And every time I every time I even that right there it's like I get another angle to appreciate
[00:09:39] and to realize and then you start you start I'll cover Bellowood on this podcast for sure.
[00:09:45] But I mean when you read about Bellowood at all it was just savage battle.
[00:09:50] Yeah.
[00:09:51] Savage battle.
[00:09:52] I mean there's one Medal of Honor for a guy that his buddy didn't have his gas mask.
[00:09:58] So he took off his own gas mask and gave it to him and then died.
[00:10:02] I mean it's it's it's unbelievable and so you were telling me you kind of opened it
[00:10:09] back up the history books the war books.
[00:10:12] Yeah.
[00:10:13] I used to certainly as a kid and early in my career I would read military history all the
[00:10:19] time.
[00:10:20] I mean some of it was an assignment you know we'd become a lieutenant in the Marine Corps and
[00:10:24] there's a kind of a reading list and you want to go through and you do some of it kind
[00:10:27] of they call it professional military education PME.
[00:10:31] But I used to be really interested in it and I just kind of do it on my own a lot of it was
[00:10:34] aviation centric but I got away from it and for the latter half of my career I didn't do
[00:10:40] military history at all.
[00:10:41] It wasn't it just wasn't something that really captivated me and in the last year
[00:10:48] and a half or so partially and now not partially mostly because of this podcast.
[00:10:54] I've actually gone back and read red some of the books and and you and I've talked about
[00:10:59] a lot of different ones with the old breed Eugene sledge.
[00:11:05] So that was a book I read a long time ago and it was it was incredible book very powerful
[00:11:09] but I went back and read that book a little while back and I had stopped thinking and
[00:11:19] paying attention to the meanings.
[00:11:22] I was I was I was always paying attention to the chronology in the past okay this happened
[00:11:26] here this is the lesson learned and this is the movement and it was all kind of very
[00:11:29] sanitary and I lost what meant to hear their stories and I used to read them and I think
[00:11:37] I just try to pay attention to what happened and not really learn as much from him or
[00:11:43] from them and and I've read more in the last year than I had in honestly jocquipy the
[00:11:49] previous five.
[00:11:50] It's not more and I'm reading all the time and I'm and once you start sort of digging
[00:11:56] into that world there's there's more books than I could ever read in my entire life
[00:12:02] there everywhere and it has renewed the way I how much I read but it's also changed
[00:12:11] the way I read and it's been a really good experience for me I've learned a lot in the
[00:12:16] last year.
[00:12:17] And this is another thing I talked to you about as we were we were talking about the subject
[00:12:22] the other day and I brought up this quote from Lusosia and and the quote is if you know
[00:12:29] the way broadly you will see it and everything and to me that is what makes that is what
[00:12:37] has I guess recalibrated reading for me is that when you start seeing all these connections
[00:12:46] and everything and and part of it quite frankly comes from the fact that I wrote a book
[00:12:52] that is about this subject and once you go that deep in it it's like okay now I start
[00:12:58] seeing it everywhere and I mean even kind of all started it definitely all started with
[00:13:04] about face for me with about face for me when I was in Iraq and I knew I knew about
[00:13:10] face was a great book and this is this is on my second but on my first appointment my
[00:13:14] book was with the old breed as a matter of fact that was my book and I thought okay
[00:13:19] but it was so disconnected it was such a stretch I mean my first appointment to Iraq was
[00:13:25] absolutely absolutely nothing like with the old breed other the fact that we were American
[00:13:32] like the similarities ended there right it was nothing like with the old breed nothing you
[00:13:40] know other than in my mind okay well these were horrible things that are happening you
[00:13:43] just it was really hard to make that connection I'll tell you what though our deployment
[00:13:47] to a body the similarities between Romadi and and about face were incredible not just you
[00:13:55] know one of the things that hit me right out of the gate is when hack worth gets to
[00:14:00] Vietnam and those guys are getting killed and they're getting killed by sniper fire
[00:14:04] indirect fire and booby traps which we now call IDs for whatever reason and that one
[00:14:10] section of the book where they've taken hundreds like a hundred something casualties and
[00:14:14] they've and they've they've contacted the enemy zero times enemy it's an enemy killed zero
[00:14:21] and I'm thinking myself this is a nightmare this is a nightmare and that nightmare it
[00:14:27] shows itself over and over and over again and what's so hard is an I'll tell you where
[00:14:34] hit me again it hit me again on on Lewis polar when Lewis polar is rotating between
[00:14:41] the three different sections in one of them was called Riviera and he's saying every
[00:14:47] time they go into Riviera they take wounded or they take killed and on top of that they
[00:14:53] don't ever see the enemy and I'm thinking myself it's maddening right it's maddening
[00:15:01] when you look back and your detached which where detached now and I don't know if cultures different
[00:15:07] I don't know if our cultures different I don't know if we value human life more I don't know that
[00:15:15] but when you read it it's maddening to think about that and you could see that like hack worth
[00:15:22] he didn't like that he didn't like that at all and that was all that was I think maybe it was you
[00:15:29] that told me when I had Jim Mucchiamon and or a couple people told me they were like you sounded
[00:15:36] giddy yeah and I said well yes I was giddy and and here I was but it was very interesting to
[00:15:44] go and talk to Mucchiama because what was interesting to me is you there's the there's the
[00:15:52] public persona of some guy that was in the military right there's the public persona of some
[00:15:55] guy that was in the military myself included you all of us there's that public persona of oh this is
[00:16:01] what this guy's perceived as but then there's like okay what about all the people that served
[00:16:05] with that person what do they really think yeah and what was hack worth really like and so going
[00:16:12] to meet Mucch I was very curious now I had read an interview with him where I knew that he had these
[00:16:21] very he held him in the highest as yeah that he was a little bit didn't come as a surprise to me
[00:16:26] but still it was it was incredible that the perception that I had of hack worth was accurate it was
[00:16:35] accurate and when you when you heard Mucch talk about it when he said we called the Mr infantry yes
[00:16:42] I I I was just thinking to myself is there anything cooler in the world than to be known
[00:16:51] throughout the army has Mr infantry yeah you said something that that jumped out of me a little bit
[00:16:58] you were you were just talking about you know is is is culture different it is something different
[00:17:05] so let me just say this a little bit because you know I've even thought a little bit about why do I
[00:17:10] see things differently than I used to what why have I evolved in a certain way so did I spent 23 years
[00:17:15] in the Marine Corps 23 years as a US Marine and a whole bunch of years just wanting to be a Marine
[00:17:22] I was in Ramadi for seven months so if you just kind of do the math it's just not a lot of time
[00:17:31] everything I think about every leadership lesson every when I hear you talk about a book when I read a
[00:17:38] book when I think all of those things the frame of reference I have the thing I think about is those seven
[00:17:44] months and had I not had those seven months of and look Ramadi obviously was it was a maddening place it was
[00:17:53] crazy but if I didn't have that I don't think I would be able to appreciate or understand and without
[00:18:00] that frame of reference without that understanding of some connection to that it actually makes it
[00:18:06] difficult and I would have never guessed it if I would have tell you hey I'm going to look back
[00:18:09] on my 23 year career and all those things I heard you listen to my bio it's always strange here someone read it out
[00:18:15] the the the the the the most powerful thing in that was seven months in Ramadi that's a thing
[00:18:22] that outshines all of it because of what you just described because of that feeling and I don't know if it's
[00:18:30] that that that culture is different or societies if we have different values or we value human
[00:18:35] like differently but without the frame of reference it can be hard to capture but if you start to think of it
[00:18:42] in in a different way and that's sort of what that that quote means and I know this is kind of a deep thought but
[00:18:49] that's you see things differently and you think about things and you start to see things you didn't
[00:18:54] even know where they're before and that's why when I went back and read look I've read a book and I
[00:18:58] read the exact same book again and to see and hear and understand things differently the
[00:19:05] segment of book that was and for me for me it was with the old be that was the book that sort of
[00:19:09] hit me square I got to go to Okinawa I got to walk that ground that and to go back and reread that book
[00:19:14] recently and have it seem so different that has really stuck with me and and that was sort of the
[00:19:20] reason why I got back into reading some of them the same books and some are different but there
[00:19:25] is something about that perspective that changes you and I would have never guessed that throughout my
[00:19:30] career I was want to be a pilot it's literally wanted to do that I would sort of define my experience
[00:19:37] based on those seven months and how that influence everything that I see now and the weird thing is
[00:19:42] about Ramadi is when you compare Ramadi to Pelu you compare Ramadi to Okinawa you compare Ramadi to
[00:19:52] Normandy you compare Ramadi to you compare Ramadi to those places and our experience was just
[00:20:01] it just pales it just absolutely pales yeah you and I have talked about this a lot you actually sent
[00:20:08] me I think you sent me a text or an email a couple weeks ago you're like hey do me a favor
[00:20:12] just verify I got this right I wanted this make sure I got your combat experience in your first
[00:20:18] deployment correct and it was that I I was in combat and I rack and I was thinking yeah yeah
[00:20:25] you got it all right I dropped a bomb that was my that was a legitimate combat experience before
[00:20:32] that's pre 911 yeah pre 911 you were one of the few guys with combat yeah that's meant you
[00:20:38] had dropped a bomb a bomb singular and I and the thought wasn't just how ridiculous that sounds but
[00:20:44] I thought I don't ever want Charlie Plummer Bill reader to hear me say that yeah I don't want them
[00:20:50] to have is almost embarrassed and and even like you said Ramadi which for me which was sort of like
[00:20:57] the world series and the Super Bowl combined into one like the most powerful thing and
[00:21:02] with the old breed since we've been talking about that you talk about the battle of Okinawa
[00:21:06] and what they endured I mean it is so humbling and and almost honestly man doubt-riding a
[00:21:15] little embarrassing to try to share the same experience we saw that with Tom Five and I remember
[00:21:22] Tom Five was on the podcast and he was so grateful for he was thanking me for what we had done
[00:21:26] and what we accomplished and I'm thinking this is a man that has a purple heart from World War II
[00:21:32] Korea and Vietnam and he's thanking me for what I did and you know that's that's a frame of
[00:21:41] reference that I think is important and something the podcast does is so extremely well as it
[00:21:45] gives those guys a chance to share that story that that otherwise they wouldn't get a chance to
[00:21:50] is there a way to get I'm trying to figure out what I was missing right I was trying to
[00:21:58] figure out what how can you get somebody that's a 18-year-old corporal to read a book with the
[00:22:05] perspective that with the right perspective is that possible? In 18-year-old they burq it wasn't
[00:22:12] possible I can tell you that for sure it wasn't and I don't know if that's a case but I do know that
[00:22:23] if you get an 18-year-old day burq to start to read and start to think about it that actually
[00:22:32] builds over time and that creates some sort of foundation that I think with time and perspective
[00:22:39] you can actually reach those it reads that but there's no way at that age no matter what you said
[00:22:45] no matter how articulate you were no matter how powerful the story was I don't think you're reaching
[00:22:50] me and I don't mean that to be discouraging but I think that's that's a hard lesson I think you know
[00:22:57] for certainly what I was going through at that time in my life. It's just not gonna happen.
[00:23:06] It's gonna yeah it's one's two because what you're focused on when you're 18 and you read with the
[00:23:10] old breed you're like like I remember my earliest memories of with the old breed are these guys
[00:23:18] were ripping people's gold tea out with pliers you're thinking whoa that's crazy like that's the big
[00:23:25] that's that's probably the big takeaway for my first read when I was whatever years old
[00:23:29] yep of with the old breed it's you you you see it for the things that seem not real and you're like man
[00:23:38] that is incredible and that is awesome and I also think that goes so you talk about love that
[00:23:44] that sort of that feeling of invincibility too when you're young and that like immune to not just
[00:23:50] the physical risks not just the potential of getting hurt or getting injured or getting shot or
[00:23:55] some of those worst things but the mental and emotional risks that go along with experiencing that
[00:24:01] that's a really hard lesson now the other side of that is you know when I deployed to Rammadi
[00:24:08] almost everybody on my team was a first deployment brand new young US Marine you met Marcus
[00:24:17] Perez he came to the the muster you know he was a young kid and you walk in there sort of with this
[00:24:26] kind of this bullet proof approach and it's not how it is when you leave it's not the same
[00:24:34] and and and in some ways like you said the scale is is different than a benapelilu or a guanoil or any
[00:24:42] of those things you know that that we just talked about but when it's happening to you it's it could
[00:24:48] be a single round a single mortar a single shot a single wound if it's happening to you it sort of
[00:24:53] feels like the it's happening to the whole world it's really impactful and that's probably why
[00:24:58] if I look back in my career the thing that's the most powerful experience that I had that sort of
[00:25:04] outshines everything by so much is is that time in Rammadi because I was exposed to things
[00:25:09] that I never saw as a pilot and never would have seen had I not been on that deployment
[00:25:15] you know what I was thinking so one of the things I remember probably I don't know if it was 10 or 15
[00:25:21] podcasts deep into into this podcast I remember saying during one of the podcasts and I've said
[00:25:30] it a few times along the way I remember saying that these people that I'm talking about in these books
[00:25:37] they're not characters yeah these are people and I think at some point for me that transition in my
[00:25:44] brain happened where I was saying to myself these are these are people and I think I got a little bit
[00:25:52] of it in my platoon commander tour because you know there was hey it was it was a good solid deployment
[00:25:59] was there a risk sure there was risky wasn't super high risk I had had a great crew of guys but
[00:26:04] you know there was there was stress and there was personalities and you start to see that when you
[00:26:08] read about a guy and you think I kind of know that guy just I just know him a little bit I just
[00:26:13] know him a little bit and and you start to realize that those people in these books they're real people
[00:26:20] and I think that for me was a huge leap between connecting me to the text that I was reading
[00:26:28] and I'll tell you another thing and straight up voice when I started thinking about reading these
[00:26:38] things when I started reading these aloud when I started reading them and hearing them in my own
[00:26:42] headset like on the podcast that was an impact and now it's happened it happened with Bill
[00:26:48] Reader happened with Joe de Medic at happen when these guys come on here and they hear me read what they
[00:26:52] wrote and it hits them and so that's another part of it too there is an element when you read that's missing
[00:27:00] there's an element of voice that is just more powerful it's just more powerful and I remember when I
[00:27:07] read the forgotten highlander when I read that book I read it on the plane coming back calling a guy
[00:27:14] over in Scotland a buddy of mine who I done some work with he gave me this book and he I was on podcast
[00:27:20] 11 and he was hey you got to check on this book I won't try to do it Scottish accent plus he's a
[00:27:24] mumbler he's like he's gonna check up this book mate and so he gives me this book and I'm sort of thinking oh
[00:27:29] okay you know I just I wasn't sure but I had made enough of a enough of a leap in my brain
[00:27:36] that when I started reading that book I said to myself wow this is gonna be this is gonna be a
[00:27:43] really powerful podcast so I read the book so then when we come this is podcast number 12
[00:27:48] when we came when I came into record it I thought yeah this is gonna be really heavy but when I read it
[00:27:54] it was like I was getting hit in the head with with a sledg hammer and that's the first podcast that
[00:28:00] when I got to the end of the book I actually didn't know what to say because what do you say what do you
[00:28:06] say about a guy that what do you say about a guy that that that put maggots on his flesh to eat
[00:28:13] away the dead flesh what what do you say about that and so that's the first podcast where I said
[00:28:21] when I got done with it the next time I did a podcast that was heavy like that I knew that I had to
[00:28:27] get myself somewhere to go I had to give myself some thought about how am I gonna make this
[00:28:35] how does this become something I like I don't get out of this whole because that's what that's what
[00:28:41] you're doing and so there's a level of that as well when you hear like when you hear a hardcore
[00:28:47] history podcast you get a great storytelling but he's reading quotes from people but it's so much
[00:28:53] more powerful when you hear it audibly and we you know people say I'm about extreme ownership too
[00:28:58] people say oh yeah I love that book and this and we'll say you gotta get the audio book
[00:29:02] because it's life and I reading it and you can hear I mean how much is communicated in the tone of
[00:29:07] voice there's a lot when you said earlier about the the audible piece of that
[00:29:17] when you finish my first podcast so when I was on uh this is we were talking about this almost a year and
[00:29:22] half ago now you know April I think of last year I guess you finished with a letter that cat
[00:29:29] wrote to Chris now I didn't know we hadn't discussed that and I didn't know how it was going to
[00:29:34] finish and you know we spent all that time you know talking about me and my experiences things like that
[00:29:39] I knew that letter very well I have a copy of that letter and I've read that letter several times
[00:29:45] I had never read that letter out loud to myself I never read it but it's I've shared it you know
[00:29:51] with Whitney and and I've shared that letter hearing you say a letter that I knew
[00:29:59] almost line by line I know that letter really well made that letter like I had never heard it before
[00:30:05] and I remember it look it's hard to hear because I it's Chris and it's hard for me because that's
[00:30:09] a really impactful thing very emotional thing and that is a that's a crush of for me man I know
[00:30:15] you understand that but I had never heard it out loud and in there's a book I'm reading now that
[00:30:23] I have read the preface of the book which is only about three pages kind of to explain I've read it
[00:30:28] out loud to myself like five times and it's it's something that I overlooked the impact of hearing it
[00:30:38] as opposed to reading and I read the book is really cool book I think a sentient page this book's
[00:30:42] awesome you should check it out I read the the preface out loud to myself and having had read it three
[00:30:47] four times I'm just hearing it it was like reading it for the first time the the voice that you give that
[00:30:51] makes it makes the words become real like a like that person wrote the book is saying out loud
[00:30:59] and that difference there it's not subtle it's huge it's a huge huge thing that that is one of the
[00:31:07] great things about when people do it when they do it on podcasts and you're putting somebody else's
[00:31:11] voice in action most of the time reading books by people that are long gone and you're telling
[00:31:16] stories that nobody would ever hear and even if you read them it misses something and I think
[00:31:21] the power that is huge and it brought me right back to our last podcast which was you sitting right where
[00:31:26] you are reading cats letter to Chris and as it like I said like I had never heard it before it was
[00:31:33] it's a totally different level you know what podcasts was another podcast that sort of it got me
[00:31:48] was one soldier's war by arcadey and that part in the end of that podcast where
[00:31:58] it's again that was podcast number 18 and he's he's he's quoting these wounded soldiers that
[00:32:08] were sitting begging for money basically and he's talking about how this guy is saying
[00:32:15] if I would kill all these he's talking about this this soldier's talking about everyone on the
[00:32:20] streets in Moscow he says I would kill everyone of these people to bring back my brothers you're
[00:32:26] reading this going good God that is a powerful powerful book did you see him in the news recently
[00:32:32] no he faked his own death oh yeah absolutely yes all these people we talked about he did
[00:32:39] hit me up on social media and I was all been what a tragedy and yeah I was totally bummed out
[00:32:45] and then sure enough he had faked his own death he had even fooled his wife he didn't tell his wife
[00:32:51] that's that takes a lot of courage he's a courageous guy already but yeah to fake your death and
[00:32:57] not give your wife a heads up about it that's that's hardcore that's that's problematic yeah
[00:33:03] and and that that feeling to it's one thing to sort of have that feeling but to be willing to
[00:33:08] express that feeling that I would do that to all of these people that is that's a that's saying a
[00:33:16] lot man I mean that is deep to I mean I've had some pretty hardcore thoughts certainly in my
[00:33:21] time like I'm like I sure that one but to put it out there you know I mean that's that gets to the
[00:33:28] core of of just how how much people feel from those experiences how powerful those feelings are
[00:33:35] and those guys had had no mercy those those Russians soldiers they had no mercy it was that
[00:33:40] that part of what he's talking about the sergeants beat the corp rules the captains beat the sergeants
[00:33:46] the majors beat the captains yeah it's just a nightmare yeah it's just a complete nightmare it
[00:33:52] makes you wonder how any of that is is makes any of it remotely functional like how does that
[00:33:57] system function at all under that setting under that environment how could anybody at the bottom of that
[00:34:04] hierarchy be willing to go do any of the things they went and did you know you're talking about you
[00:34:10] know this thing from from Bella wood they're they literally know most of you're gonna die we're
[00:34:17] gonna charge across open fields and a machine guns we use that example at echelon front is something
[00:34:21] that you would never do and that's what they were doing I mean border line just human waves
[00:34:28] if we do it enough we're gonna get 50 75 yards of terrain out of it we're gonna move the line
[00:34:35] 400 yards and we're gonna send wave after wave after wave and guys are left right like this is
[00:34:41] burnt border line at death sentence what what people are capable of doing and under those
[00:34:49] environments is unreal sometimes world war one it just is just you know it's you know what's funny
[00:34:58] is I say that about everyone every war so the world we're like unbelievable and then you you
[00:35:03] talked about Napoleon who like nothing like that and then I read the book on the coldest war
[00:35:10] or colder than hell do they're like nothing like that like there is there is something that has
[00:35:16] happened and every one of the stories you've talked about or I think how is that possible and they
[00:35:21] all have their own unique thing about them that just seems unreal I'm I'm gonna throw in an
[00:35:26] orange vest and mark my position in 30 below so you can see me so you know where I am
[00:35:35] because I'm the leader because I'm the leader and you get lead yeah yeah
[00:35:41] unreal that being said world war one no I don't I don't know that that I don't know that
[00:35:50] that is out there the the complete lack of control that you had as a individual soldier yeah as a not
[00:36:00] even as a upleton commander as a company commander you had no control of your fate it that's that's
[00:36:07] where that's what scares me so much about world war one it wasn't like hey jockel here's here's
[00:36:12] the situation here's what we're trying to accomplish why don't you go figure out the best way to do it
[00:36:17] and I go okay you know what cool I can do this we can we can come up with cool tactics we can make
[00:36:21] some stuff happen it was hey tomorrow morning at 0600 14000 of us are gonna go at 0600
[00:36:31] and then guess what's gonna happen at 06 15 another 14000 yeah and guess what's gonna happen at 06 30
[00:36:37] another 14000 and guess what of vast majority they were gonna be wounded or killed and that's that
[00:36:43] so that that to me and and I'll tell you what they call that the war to end all wars I think
[00:36:52] if there would have been internet yeah photographers Instagram Twitter YouTube that might have been
[00:37:03] the last war right that might have been the last war if you were it's not that if you saw that
[00:37:10] as a leader because I'm just I'm what when I think about I think about like you're a general
[00:37:15] and you're in charge and you organize this big operation and then you you give the execute order
[00:37:22] and then 22000 men are killed in the first 24 hours who does that yeah who does that now
[00:37:33] and this is this is a dichotomy because are there situations where people have done
[00:37:38] operations and are there situations that war that it's like hey guess what we are going to do
[00:37:42] this mission and we don't have a real good chance to come and back and that's the way it is
[00:37:47] and it's a strategic piece of the mission and does that happen could that happen absolutely
[00:37:54] and do people in the military sign-up for that what I sign up for that if that was what was required
[00:37:58] well yeah that's what we signed up for but it has a leader like that to be sitting there looking at
[00:38:03] 25000 men and you gained you know 75 yards of mud and and you know what you go okay that was bad
[00:38:13] we're not going to do that again no no you know what you say you know what we'll do it harder
[00:38:17] right we'll do it harder which is which is what makes me it makes that war to me just absolutely
[00:38:26] sickening and yeah it's sickening it is it absolutely is and the calculus that goes into that
[00:38:34] is something that is completely disconnected from the value of human life completely disconnected
[00:38:39] of what that impact is and then you you read this letter and that's 14000 moms
[00:38:48] on that one way that one time that's 14000 of these letters and the disconnect of human life
[00:38:59] yeah it's it's actually hard kind of hard to fathom you talked about you know
[00:39:03] yeah the high risk operation you know we're going to go into the worst possible
[00:39:09] situation because yeah and you know what we all kind of secretly would say hey if that I'm
[00:39:14] the volunteer for that you know the high risk but as as that's just how we do operations all the time
[00:39:20] that's just what we do yeah now that's that's that's actually a nightmare yeah
[00:39:31] in the other thing with World War one right like World War two you're looking at
[00:39:38] Nazis and you're looking at the Imperial Academy ceremony and you're thinking
[00:39:44] we've got real bad guys here we got legit bad guys that's that's a factor too right
[00:39:53] Germany World War one it's like yeah we wanted a little extra land who's that land for
[00:39:58] you know what I talk about with you know we wouldn't we would work with companies and I say
[00:40:03] so okay CEO says you know my frontline troops aren't doing what they're supposed to do
[00:40:08] and it's affecting our bottom line and you know I say oh we we got to explain to them why it's
[00:40:14] important right and so then CEO goes down and says hey you guys need to do a better job on the
[00:40:20] frontline so that the company can be more profitable and the frontline people are like we don't care
[00:40:25] yeah more powerful that doesn't matter to me yeah I'm making 17 bucks an hour and I got a wife
[00:40:32] and I got a kid and I got a basketball game tonight and we got a mortgage and I got a house payment
[00:40:35] the company being profitable makes no difference to me whatsoever yeah so imagine now you're
[00:40:40] a world war one and you're gonna get an extra 14 miles of land that's the goal to get 14 miles
[00:40:48] of land in some country and and it's not for you it's for like the government yeah it's absolutely
[00:40:59] it's a trotius yeah and and when you're sending US Marines across the Atlantic Ocean
[00:41:05] to get engaged in that war like to keep Germany from encroaching a little bit too far west
[00:41:13] you know yeah yeah yeah yeah the the why doesn't you know that doesn't that doesn't resonate
[00:41:20] have I have I ever talked about I do I don't know if I've talked about I have I ever talked
[00:41:23] about the white flowers thing they didn't in Britain the white flower so if you were like a
[00:41:29] able bodied young man if you were a military age male yeah and and you weren't wearing a uniform
[00:41:36] and you weren't like fighting women would come up and give you a white flower it was the mark of shame
[00:41:43] and the government started that campaign yeah the government started that campaign of hey
[00:41:50] you see you see someone that's not uniform military age male able bodied fighting man
[00:41:56] you go up and give them a white flower he's a coward I'm I'm prepping a book right now for the
[00:42:02] bodcast and actually a couple books but it's a nightmare because what they're doing is they're
[00:42:11] executing British soldiers that have that that dessert or runaway or have shell shock yeah they're
[00:42:21] just dysfunctional they they can't do it anymore and it's it's awful some of the stories these
[00:42:26] guys are soldiers that have been on the line for a year and they break they break which everyone
[00:42:35] Dick Winner's talks about people break brave the braveest guys yeah they might break
[00:42:39] and you gotta get them all off the line hack worth same thing you got brave guys sometimes
[00:42:43] got to get them off the line old war one we got a British soldier he's been fighting for a year
[00:42:48] in the trenches he's been getting mortored he's been getting bombed he says I can't do this anymore
[00:42:53] okay we're gonna shoot you a dawn and they did it yeah that's another thing it's completely insane
[00:43:00] yeah we use the analogy a lot we talk about this in our front and like hey it your folks when
[00:43:04] you're pushing your folks too hard it's like it's like driving a car in the red you
[00:43:07] you're running this car in the red you're running hard and if you keep them in the red too long
[00:43:12] that car is gonna break and then just gonna break now you can you can push to the red a little bit
[00:43:16] you can kind of throttle up it and and do that and then you gotta bring it back and that's sort of
[00:43:20] one of the leaders job is sort of sort of pay attention to that this is the idea of like I'm gonna
[00:43:23] run my car in the red until my car explodes and then I'm gonna be mad at the car I'm gonna blame the car
[00:43:29] and the disconnect of the and we like you said that the disconnect of the impact of the human
[00:43:36] being that that that that's what leaders are supposed to do that's their job is to and
[00:43:42] Dickwinner's had that he talked about the idea of like hey when when somebody puts their head in
[00:43:47] their hands that's they live a physical that literally showing you hey man I'm breaking right now
[00:43:53] and the willingness to just say go do it again and then get to the point like I can't let go
[00:44:02] we're done with you we don't have anymore use for you anymore yeah that's hard to comprehend
[00:44:08] it's hard to comprehend it I'm I'm but like I said I'm prepping these books it's awful to read them
[00:44:13] it's awful to read them some of the murder the quotes from the soldiers that work chosen to be the
[00:44:18] executioners right I mean what what's that what's that I remember I started one podcast off with that
[00:44:24] was like these soldiers were picked to go this this kid had been in the army for a couple of weeks
[00:44:29] and he had to go shoot a diserter that was this one of his first assignments what the hell yeah so
[00:44:36] there's some kind of a some kind of a you know do we value human life more now that's the question
[00:44:45] I think the answer if you compare today compared to World War One the answer is 100% yes without
[00:44:52] a doubt 100% yes we do we do in the military we do and we do everywhere I think we absolutely do
[00:45:00] you got a nice long history of podcasts that are just sort of soul crushing you know you
[00:45:05] you've you've hit some real home runs there with some some podcasts you're like wow that is
[00:45:09] that is hard but you know what the reason that we hold human life in greater value now
[00:45:17] is because of that is because of those stories because this letter I mean there's that that small
[00:45:23] piece of having to understand that we are here because of where we came from we are here because of
[00:45:28] what we did and what we endured and that's not to say we won't go back to do that again that doesn't
[00:45:33] mean that we can't end up back in that place but those those stories that that legacy of that
[00:45:39] just crazy impossible to understand how you can do that to that many people and just say that's
[00:45:48] just how we do business that's just what we do we have come a long way and I think we've moved
[00:45:56] in the right direction now there is a piece that when people go to war people die oh yeah you know
[00:46:05] that's and we we can't get to a place or to a point or to a belief in our society where
[00:46:13] that is not acceptable that it's that is not something we're willing to have happened or an order
[00:46:20] for us to be successful that that is not okay to get to point that any loss of life or any
[00:46:24] injury or any sacrifice is not okay we can't get to that point so over shooting that is not
[00:46:33] good either I wouldn't use World War I as a benchmark you know that's just it's not even close but
[00:46:39] the reality is is that that's not just how war is but that's actually necessary and that's a
[00:46:47] as a leader that's a huge burden that's a huge burden and the burden is to balance the the
[00:46:54] responsibility that you have to do everything to ensure that doesn't happen to your people knowing
[00:46:59] for well knowing for well that it will and I'll be really did I'll be really honest with you
[00:47:11] I did not when I went to Iraq I did not really grasp that it might happen to my guys
[00:47:24] I just didn't and I just didn't give it enough thought that the risk was actually going to end up
[00:47:37] with me and my guys and that Chris was going to get killed and I looked back on that as a leader and I
[00:47:43] I should have thought about that more I should have prepared for that more and I should have known
[00:47:47] what that meant more than I did and the reality is is that anybody in this business that goes to
[00:47:57] combat in any shape or form has to be prepared for that and to recognize that that is what happens
[00:48:04] in combat and that your job as a leader is to to everything you can to prevent it knowing
[00:48:09] full well that that is going to happen that's what happens how long to take you once you are on the
[00:48:15] ground in Ramadi not long so so the sledgehammer for me I mean I will never forget the day
[00:48:25] on the ever forget June 20th ever the sledgehammer for me was the first day I got there the guy that I was
[00:48:34] replacing got in a humvee hit an ID he was woony buddy broke both of his legs in a humvee that I was
[00:48:44] supposed to take from him we were supposed to do the turnover of that humvee and obviously not getting
[00:48:47] that vehicle because it got blown up but it was a major in the Marine Corps and it was like
[00:48:53] majors and a major aviator in the Marine Corps got blown up by an ID so I got up to speed very quickly
[00:49:02] and that place had an ability to get you to be aware of the reality but very fast so I think I got
[00:49:08] there very fast day one something happened but the anticipation of that getting there that was kind
[00:49:14] of a sledgehammer for me what about reading reports when you're going in so I we talked about
[00:49:23] the last time my best friend was in Ramadi Neil yeah Neil Neil was in Ramadi and third
[00:49:28] times seven Marines so make no mistake Joko I objectively understood what was going on I mean
[00:49:34] I I was aware I knew I was getting myself into when I asked to go on that fact to her to Ramadi but
[00:49:40] the disconnect was what it meant it's sort of like the same disconnect that we were talking about
[00:49:47] when you read these books yeah like your reading reports but you're not there mentally well look
[00:49:55] combat for me was dropping a bomb in Iraq you know and Afghanistan was a certainly more aggressive
[00:50:00] experience for me you know it was a lot more regular pace there was certainly some risk involved
[00:50:08] but you've talked about the first combat experience on this podcast a lot we've talked about just
[00:50:12] the first combat experience as well I did not really get it until I saw it and actually in
[00:50:21] some ways you could say I didn't get it till I heard it you know the sounds of combat what it really
[00:50:26] sounds like to have a bullet go past your head so close to you can actually sort of gauge how close
[00:50:32] it was to your head and whether it was closer to the guy next to you three feet away closer to you
[00:50:37] who was the sniper actually looking I've had those thoughts I know you have too so the sights of the
[00:50:42] sounds of that it's just it's hard to replicate and I've actually been in MBS you've talked about
[00:50:50] the training that you did for your guys at task in bruising some of the things you did I didn't
[00:50:54] do a lot of those things you know and I I showed up and look this is no criticism I'm I
[00:50:58] thrown ahead of anybody this is just the way it was I got to that that that you know that I
[00:51:03] deployed with I I showed up in October I did some training I kind of really joined the unit in
[00:51:07] earnest in like January and I was in a Romadi in February we kind of you sort of laughed at me last
[00:51:12] time I shot my rifle in training once I I BZO I oriented my sights on my rifle when I got
[00:51:23] to Romadi you know and that that training range they had just on the outside and and made sure my
[00:51:28] sights were in good shape before I went out on my first patrol the next day so in a lot of ways I was
[00:51:34] just kind of in over my head with what that was and then on that deployment it just crazy yeah it's
[00:51:40] crazy and it happened so there was you know that's the sort of the the trial by fire story I mean
[00:51:46] it that's what it was for me but I will say this I got at the speed quickly in the rate that
[00:51:53] recognition the reality and look people were we're getting wounded people getting killed pretty
[00:51:58] regularly that you can see like man that's that's close that's real that's on the street I've been
[00:52:02] on that's an up patrol I've done that's an upheaval that I've maned so I I got to that point
[00:52:08] very quickly and the lessons that I had grown up with as a leader the way that I I was as a
[00:52:17] leader I was able to leverage that they they still worked leadership and combat it's it's
[00:52:24] certainly more dynamic it it will certainly strike more figuring you but the principles don't change
[00:52:30] and I was old enough and mature enough and I had enough under my belt to say okay I need to control
[00:52:36] this I need to control how I react in this setting and I need to do what I do and I need to do the
[00:52:40] things that I know what I need to do and I was lucky enough to be able to do that and keep my you
[00:52:46] know my wherewithal and not get overwhelmed by it and I saw guys get overwhelmed by it here
[00:52:49] and there it was a place that that could do that to you but I was able to fall back on
[00:52:54] leadership principles how you lead to Marines were you were did you think mentally right the
[00:52:59] mental game of being able to attach being able to take a step back and as a fighter pilot did you
[00:53:05] just say oh this is what it's like as a fighter pilot this is what it's like oh I remember it's like
[00:53:11] for the landing on an aircraft carrier I'm going to be stressed out what I need to overcome that
[00:53:14] did you supply the same mechanisms to all right now I'm going to be stepping fruit on the battlefield
[00:53:19] and this is how I need to apply the same mentality the same mechanisms I had enough experience
[00:53:24] of being scared and controlling the fear that comes along with things that are scary that
[00:53:31] it looked different it smelled different it sounded different but the feeling was exactly the same
[00:53:35] is that makes sense yeah so that's what I was like I said that's why it's a saltball because I'm
[00:53:39] imagining that you know even even for us okay so let's say free fall like you're going to free fall
[00:53:45] well you're jumping out of an airplane and I I was I thought I would be more scared the first time
[00:53:51] I jumped out of an airplane but I was actually pretty pumped so that's not a great example but
[00:53:56] there's times in the sealed things where you do something in training where you're like okay this
[00:54:00] is a little bit sketch right this is a little bit sketch and you know what do you do you do the
[00:54:06] same thing you know okay this is what I'm going to do I've practiced it I've rehearsed it I'm going
[00:54:10] to I'm going to execute this thing and we're going to make it happen and you learn how to do that so
[00:54:15] when you get in combat you have a protocol to follow to take that's really if you're good now
[00:54:22] you know we see people that they they they have the protocol and they aren't able to apply it
[00:54:28] to the situation yeah I I never really freaked out when I was there the reality was oh
[00:54:35] this is a lot closer to me than I thought it was going to be the reality was it hit me harder than
[00:54:39] I expected in my preparation you know wasn't where it needed to be to be ready for it when I got there
[00:54:45] I knew that feeling and I felt that several times in my career and the response to it is it's all the same
[00:54:51] and one of the best things about responding to those situations is that as a leader you're really busy
[00:54:59] there's a lot to do you you've got a lot going on a lot of decision you have to make a lot of things
[00:55:03] you have to be aware of and that's actually one of the best remedies for all that and you know it's
[00:55:09] probably really tough for someone it really junior in the organization that may feel like it doesn't
[00:55:13] know what's going on doesn't have a real sense of those things I was never really bored yeah you know
[00:55:18] I mean it's time you have a lot of time now I I I know the feeling I've had I felt that feeling
[00:55:23] and it's like man this is a lot different I'm in a humvy I can't see things I'm used to being
[00:55:27] able to see my situation awareness is different how I gather information all that is different
[00:55:31] because the environment is different the feeling the same in the response to the same and like I said I
[00:55:35] had the luxury if you want to call that I was always busy I was that stuff going on I had always
[00:55:40] things to do I never I didn't just sit there and think wow this is terrifying and scary and I don't
[00:55:43] know what to do it's in the aftermath I look back at man that was that was crazy you know I remember
[00:55:50] I have this very vivid memory of of doing what we call them presence patrols so we take a
[00:55:56] couple of humvies and cruise around and in this case it was the town I was called to me I was a little
[00:56:01] town in in Romani there on the south side and just a nasty place just not a good place and
[00:56:07] a presence patrol is really just you just wait and get shot at and we would weave in and out of
[00:56:12] of the the streets and you know the buildings are two three stories high and we pulled up to an
[00:56:16] intersection where we're the second vehicle and this two vehicle patrol and the vehicle turns into
[00:56:20] a suit of vehicle from yet two vehicles yeah get some yeah we're number two that's get some the first
[00:56:25] vehicle makes it right hand turn as soon as you turn's right down with an RPG I can see him up you
[00:56:30] know right in my 12 o'clock position and it goes over the hood of our vehicle hits the wall
[00:56:36] it doesn't detonate but I think I might have mentioned this before and I'm just yelling go go go go go
[00:56:44] and those are the stories that in the after when you look back in the after him like man that was
[00:56:47] crazy but at the time you don't really spend a lot of time yeah you're saying you're yeah you're like
[00:56:52] oh you're gonna go to the right hey and you're on the radio he wears the other vehicle hey this
[00:56:55] is which is how you you're you're talking you're communicating you're doing all things you're supposed
[00:56:59] to do so you can look back on those things and a lot of them to look back on like man that was
[00:57:02] out of control that was nuts or but during those times even some of those those terrifying
[00:57:07] experiences I was just too busy to really worry about it and I was making decisions and
[00:57:13] I think as a leader that's that's actually good because I don't want to sit there and think
[00:57:18] about all these things that are scary me I want to just respond to it and just make a decision
[00:57:21] and do something and I actually had a lot of time in my career where I was I got very
[00:57:26] comfortable making decisions and difficult environments very quickly that's aviation and a nutshell
[00:57:31] and so I think I was able to adapt to that very quick and that's part of the reason why I was
[00:57:35] able to get through that deployment the way that I did you know I had some decompression we
[00:57:38] talked about that after after the fact but not a lot while I was there did you were punch out of your
[00:57:45] aircraft the every jacks no is that just luck yeah I mean some of it's beyond your control
[00:57:51] and it's pretty rare it doesn't happen all that often but not me thank god yeah check you know
[00:58:01] one of the things you were talking about you know well you basically went on a whole
[00:58:07] comment there about you know you got a your situation going back to the original subject here
[00:58:14] as a leader you're in this situation where you're going to take these guys that you care about
[00:58:18] and you're going to do everything to protect and you're regardless of how much you want to protect them
[00:58:25] they're you're gonna put them in situations where they can get killed and that that the
[00:58:30] new book coming out the first chapter is called the ultimate dichotomy it's what it's called
[00:58:36] it's the ultimate dichotomy and there's a reason because that is the ultimate dichotomy there's no
[00:58:40] that for a leader as far as I'm concerned that is the absolute hardest thing that you have to
[00:58:45] deal with as a leader yeah the fact that you care about these guys it's your all you've been taught all
[00:58:50] you believe all you think all your your your morals and your values are all these for these guys
[00:58:56] that are doing anything for you and you'll do anything for them and you know their families and you
[00:59:03] know their kids and it's like yeah I guess what take all that and now you're gonna send them on missions
[00:59:11] where there is no doubt that they can get wounded or they can get killed you met Marcos at
[00:59:20] at the master we talked about him earlier and this is a kid that would have done
[00:59:26] anything for me to this day he would do anything for me this is a kid that loves me how
[00:59:33] love this kid to and that's that feeling that is very hard to explain if you haven't gone through it
[00:59:39] and it's very hard to describe how powerful that is every single day I threw Marcos in the
[00:59:47] turret of my humby stuck his head up you know it was an armor humby was great but at the end of the
[00:59:51] day you know what the turret gonna have to do it's got to get his head up out of the turret and man
[00:59:55] that 240 gaw for 50 cow whatever we had on that on any given day and stick his head out of that humby
[01:00:03] every single day and I thought about that all the time all the time and it is exactly what you just
[01:00:12] described this is someone that would have done anything for me this is someone that I loved and
[01:00:17] would have done anything for and every day it was get in the turret and let's go that's what you do
[01:00:26] and you do everything you can to prepare them and every you can to make sure it doesn't happen
[01:00:30] and the last thing you tell him is hey get up there we gotta go we gotta go do this no just can you
[01:00:35] even fathom can you even fathom that that happens and you do it for months and you do it for months
[01:00:40] and you do it for a year and finally he says you know what I can't do this anymore and then you said you know what okay
[01:00:48] we're pressing charges against you you're going to court Marshall we find you guilty
[01:00:54] that's insane and and to take it a step further we're gonna get somebody else in my unit
[01:00:58] to pull the trigger we're gonna get another guy from this unit from this baton this from this team to
[01:01:04] follow through with that order it's it's not actually no I can't comprehend that I can't understand that
[01:01:12] I can't I can't either I mean I'm like I said I'm doing a podcast about it in the near future
[01:01:19] but for the love of God that's a trajectory it's it's thank God being in this time period
[01:01:27] yeah yeah and and we could talk about this stuff for days you've talked about it you just the last podcast
[01:01:36] with the Imperial Japanese doing those experiments we talked about the dehumanization
[01:01:41] and look obviously it's it's grotesque but the dehumanization of your enemy
[01:01:49] I understand how that happens I can I can understand that we don't get there yeah I can
[01:01:55] see how people can get there yeah I can see that and I know that I know the seeds of how
[01:01:59] that grows and I know that feeling I have that feeling grows over time of of that disdain
[01:02:03] and that dehumanization that I said I would never have happened to me and I felt and I know that feeling
[01:02:08] so I my point is that well if you've ever heard me say with our enemy we didn't really have to dehumanize
[01:02:13] them because they dehumanized themselves we saw what they did we saw the acted yeah and what they did
[01:02:18] to the civilized yes absolutely absolutely you you dehumanized yourselves and you're going to
[01:02:24] suffer the consequences of that yep and so that's a bridge in my mind I can cross I understand that
[01:02:30] I don't understand how you can get to a point where the value of the human life of your own men
[01:02:38] is that you just discard them at the end like oh you're done got it line them up
[01:02:45] and that to me is kind of horrifying because I you know how to small unit I don't have a big unit
[01:02:53] and I certainly knew my guys pretty well and and maybe you only have a you know a huge unit of
[01:02:57] a bunch of unnamed people you don't build strong relationship but at the end of the day they're
[01:03:00] wearing your uniform and the end of the day they're they look sound talk and are just like you
[01:03:05] lot of them come to the same places you and that's really difficult to accept that human beings
[01:03:12] or capable of doing that like I said when it's your enemy or it's when it's someone that's
[01:03:18] different than you you at least can comprehend that and you see we've seen that in history but
[01:03:22] your your own guys that's that's a different level it's a different time period yep
[01:03:31] so going back to or not going back to you but going forward right you got out of the Marine Corps
[01:03:38] and obviously we covered a little bit on the last podcast we covered about you know we didn't
[01:03:43] we kind of read the text last time you were on the podcast of kind of how the transition you know
[01:03:48] you got out you came to an event with Lafin Eye and we hung out and you were sinking yourself
[01:03:55] yeah this looks like what I want to do but there's been more to it than that that you've kind
[01:04:04] of briefed me on a little bit yeah how much time we got yeah there's there's a lot more to it
[01:04:11] the work that we do is awesome and I wrote you a letter several months ago now but I wrote
[01:04:22] your letter kind of in some ways you know some ways like hey thank you for bringing me part of
[01:04:26] this team and and there was you know I wanted to express some some gratitude and I did that
[01:04:31] to everybody to have been brought into something that that is really incredible and and and I wanted
[01:04:36] that to be clear but I also wanted to kind of explain what I was going through is part of the transition
[01:04:46] and what has hit me the hardest is not the things that I expected to happen that have happened
[01:04:54] and looks and really good things have happened this is an awesome company we do great things
[01:04:58] and I get to make an impact and I love being a part of this and I saw it so I sort of expected
[01:05:03] to be able to do that and be a part of that and and see the impact of that but I didn't give
[01:05:09] much thought at the time to how is it impact me and what the impact of being a part of this
[01:05:16] would mean for for my growth and for myself I think we just talked about this earlier today when
[01:05:25] I get introduced to these events all the time and they read my bio sometimes and I hear the
[01:05:30] words of what we're doing and everything and what I've done and and I was at a point that I
[01:05:35] can look back and very easily think that I could have coasted I could have said hey I I I
[01:05:42] I did some good work in the Marine Corps I got a really cool resume and I've kind of got it
[01:05:47] figured out I don't have that much more to learn and I'm going to kind of I'm going to kind of go
[01:05:51] straight level for a while and the biggest part of this transition for me is the recognition
[01:06:01] that what I have done to this point what I accomplished as a Marine and and the things that I did
[01:06:08] is a pilot it doesn't matter it doesn't matter because if I cash in now and I check in the box
[01:06:19] and I'm done and I and I coast from now I'll define my life by having coasted for the rest of my life
[01:06:28] and I wasn't really prepared for having to recognize of how much more there is for me to learn
[01:06:36] and how much more there is for me to do and that has been by far the best and the most humbling part
[01:06:46] about this and you got you know me at this point you know me well enough that I'm not afraid to admit
[01:06:54] things that are kind of hard to admit I'm not afraid to kind of humble myself I'm not afraid to say
[01:06:58] why I got that wrong I didn't see that coming this transition has been way way more than I thought
[01:07:07] it was going to be and in some ways it's actually put me on my heels a little bit it's been a reminder
[01:07:13] that man I'm not even close to doing the things that I want to do before I'm done I'm not even close
[01:07:20] and that's that's a hard feeling sometimes it's actually I struggle that a little bit
[01:07:26] because a lot of the times people around me tell me I've done great things and I hear that a lot
[01:07:30] and it's great to hear but I'm not even close man and and that is something I struggle with every
[01:07:37] day and I work out every day and I I have a lot a lot to do. I don't think that you you didn't get
[01:07:48] to where you were without feeling that right yeah you don't get to you don't get to be you know
[01:07:53] all the things that you did and your big bio without saying without without having in the
[01:07:59] back your mind like I need to do more and I need to do better right yeah that's true that that is true
[01:08:05] but the magnitude of of it it gets bigger over time it doesn't get smaller the magnitude continues to grow
[01:08:18] oh I know this is like when you start to jitz it and you're like well you know what you give me a few
[01:08:25] weeks yeah you know I'm like two or three months I'll probably be tapping this guy out yeah and then
[01:08:31] no oh two weeks into you're going oh my god there's a whole another thing here yeah that might be
[01:08:37] one of the best metaphors for it you know that that that experience look the jitz it things started
[01:08:43] because and on the podcast I was describing the last podcast I was describing flying to you
[01:08:49] I was describing dogfighting you know like dude that sounds exactly like jitz dude that's kind of
[01:08:53] what spark my interest was is there a way to kind of replicate those experiences that I had that I
[01:08:58] know I can't do an airplane anymore but can I can I replicate that in some other way and that was
[01:09:02] what was intriguing to me and that was what got me on the path of that but look I heard he said this
[01:09:09] I didn't think the magnitude of the panic of oh god I'm running out of time I have so much more
[01:09:15] to do was going to get bigger over time and that is sort of what like jitzu is is and and I again
[01:09:23] I think we've had this conversation well I've made fun of you on this podcast when you weren't here
[01:09:29] of you be you know you sent me a text like bro I'm I'm the horrible I'm like oh what's what's going on
[01:09:36] you're like well I I'm never going to be like really really really good at jitzu yeah you know like
[01:09:42] I think man you're whatever you're 46 years old you know get good yeah get good it's all good yeah
[01:09:48] no certainly I think the the messages and and the lesson for me is is a reminder of something
[01:09:55] I did know something I have known throughout my life of that feeling of the clock is running
[01:10:00] you're on the clock right now you don't know when that clock's gonna end but I'm gonna tell you
[01:10:04] around you're on it and every second that you're not grinding on that clock you lose it and
[01:10:12] there's a point where complacency will try to sneak in the complacency will try to crawl up and go
[01:10:18] dude you've been crushing it look at what you've done and that voice can kind of get loud and
[01:10:26] they can kind of tell you like dude it's time to kind of turn the corner and coast a little bit kind
[01:10:29] of kind of glide just a little bit you're good and I think the best thing that's happened to me is
[01:10:34] that exposure to echelon front exposure to to to the to the to the team and exposure to jiu jitsu
[01:10:43] in a way of not like all my going to be some world champion and it's that bro the more you know
[01:10:49] the more you learn the less you actually know because learning just means like oh there's more out there
[01:10:56] so you go from one to two but what's available is a hundred to a thousand and you get to three
[01:11:03] and a thousand turns into ten thousand and jiu jitsu's infinite and so every time I get to whatever
[01:11:09] the next step is the next level all it really does is it's just somebody's opening door go oh it's actually
[01:11:14] bigger so it's almost like you're getting worse you know if you do the math like now at level four
[01:11:20] out of a million you're like there you just like yesterday there was only four moves yes it's no yeah
[01:11:25] yeah that's exactly right today there's 40 moves I don't know yeah and the other thing is
[01:11:30] from from okay for our dog fighting in an aircraft right it seems like there would be some
[01:11:38] limitation without a doubt okay and we haven't we you and I have not had this conversation but
[01:11:43] I've had those thoughts they're absolutely absolutely is a limit there's only so many things that you can do
[01:11:50] and that's actually not true yeah you know and and an aircraft you know just just by
[01:11:58] constraints of time I mean you can't you can't go up and dog fight for four hours a day every now
[01:12:03] you do that in top gone for for a few years but the opponents that you have well I guess you're
[01:12:08] going to get to the start that's that's as good as you're going to get yeah but jitsu you can do that for
[01:12:14] 20 years the parallels are undeniable the parallels and you saw that right away you and I talked
[01:12:18] about that there's no question that has been the most intriguing thing for me is that it's I'm
[01:12:22] able to replicate those feelings but the unlimited nature of how if a once out there if I had a guy
[01:12:33] in a hornet that I was going to do to be a femme with and he was we were going to do these
[01:12:37] this maneuvers and he'd be like I like to do this when I'm defensive and it wasn't exactly what he
[01:12:43] supposed to do he was going to lose every single time like oh you're not going to do the best
[01:12:48] method in this situation good I'm going to savage you do jitsu is not like that yeah if there is no
[01:12:56] this is what works and everything else is inferior and we have the geometry we have the math we have
[01:13:03] the science the physics and we actually at top gone through a ton of effort and try to matter
[01:13:08] actually figure out this is what you need to do here this how you create the most amount of
[01:13:12] closure these are all the things you do to maximize your aircraft and so if somebody deviates from that
[01:13:17] it's just better for you that's not true yeah that's not that's it's there's like it's been so
[01:13:23] broken down and so study that there's no possibility that someone could come up with something
[01:13:27] ago oh I came up with something new not happening no not and and when you're in top gun when you're
[01:13:34] top gun I would love to somebody to try something new yeah go for it yeah do your works
[01:13:40] do you come up with your best game plan because I know what you need to do in this situation
[01:13:45] and if you don't do that you're just giving me the opportunity that's what you're doing and so
[01:13:49] there is a level of that in jujitsu where you know all the gun put your arms up there's all
[01:13:54] that you're going to give up your back there's all these things that you can't do but for instance
[01:13:59] Jeffy Glover he'll give up his back and then he's rolling away from you or Dean Lister he's
[01:14:04] you're getting him in a triangle you think and then you're getting your guard past you're getting
[01:14:08] smashed so there's there's times where the things that you don't expect someone to do they do
[01:14:15] and it's problematic yeah and and I want to be very careful I'm I'm so new at this that I
[01:14:22] almost should not have been telling you what I think I know about this but the glide path to get from
[01:14:29] seeing the inside of an F-18 for the first time to being right at the very apex of that community
[01:14:38] six seven years oh really yeah about seven years from I'm going to introduce you to this
[01:14:45] airplane now you know you know how to fly but now I'm going to introduce you to a combat
[01:14:49] aircraft for the first time in your life a real combat machine you're going to get in that thing
[01:14:54] I got there in 1998 first time I sat foot in an F-18 I got to top gun in 2000
[01:15:00] uh uh 2002 I left in 2005 so I would say I was kind of at my apex in 2005
[01:15:08] well so from 1998 to 2005 that's how long it took me to be at the top of of of that world
[01:15:16] am I going to can you imagine like the best guys in GD to the guys that are been doing
[01:15:20] for five to six years yeah well well what you have to do is you there's some anomalies out there
[01:15:25] yeah there's guys that are incredibly the current natural actually and also you have to take
[01:15:29] someone and say okay this is your job because that was your job that's a big piece hey this is your
[01:15:34] job and that happened some kids get into GD too and they're like oh I'm going to sleep on the
[01:15:38] mat all I'm going to do is train BJ fan got his back belt and did well did he win the world's
[01:15:42] in F-18 years I don't think so but you know in three years got his back belt and he was a legit
[01:15:49] black belt someone was asking on social media the other day hey is this guy legit he's he seems to
[01:15:54] have gotten his black belt got his black belt from dawn or her in a short period of time
[01:15:58] oh you mean the judo uh Olympia yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah he might have some skills yeah
[01:16:04] he might be able to get up they're pretty quick yeah yes for that answer yes that dude is legit you
[01:16:09] get your black belt you can get your black belt pretty quickly if you have a bunch of
[01:16:14] natural talent maybe you have some kind of base wrestling judo something like that and then you make
[01:16:19] it your job you can get you can get really good really fast yeah but yeah basically if your mind is
[01:16:25] like addicted to it in one way or another and then you have some prerequisites like you know the
[01:16:30] geo and yeah the Martinez brothers they had breakdowns in that a lot of the same stuff you know
[01:16:36] and that kind of went along with their style I would go so far as to say this is this is a guess
[01:16:44] I would go so far as to say that most people that have their black belt in juditsu
[01:16:49] or in the obsessed mode at some point in their life makes sense that's what I'm going to say
[01:16:57] sure I cannot disagree with that right if you ever known someone that's a black belt that
[01:17:02] was not at least for a period of three years was just that's all they thought about I don't know
[01:17:08] of any no yeah they they were just into juditsu real hard go yeah and then maybe they
[01:17:13] grow out of a little bit or something whatever yeah somebody's just keep trained trained hard
[01:17:21] that's how it is one of the things that you did and this is going I hate to cycle back
[01:17:32] to the podcast again but I'm going to do it real quick because I had a had a note about it
[01:17:36] and it's something that you and I've talked about several times from Tom Fife came on the podcast
[01:17:40] purple heart you know served in world war two create Vietnam purple heart world war two
[01:17:46] create Vietnam battalion commander in world war in Vietnam company commander in Korea and I think
[01:17:56] tag put in commander in order to tank put in commander in world war two so if that's your resume what's
[01:18:02] I'm sorry uh engineer and yeah that's right yeah and so so there's his resume but it was really
[01:18:10] interesting so when he came on the podcast and we were talking about you know leadership and
[01:18:15] stuff like that and he gives this answer of we were talking around the subject of you know how
[01:18:22] do you get someone you know how do you get your people listen to you and he says hey you tell
[01:18:26] to do it and they do it and I remember you and I talked in afterwards it was like man that was not a
[01:18:33] that was not a jocco answer of like hey you know hey listen you got a build relationship with
[01:18:38] people you got a you got to get their trust you got to earn their respect you got to you got to
[01:18:42] treat them how you want to be treated and then if you explain to them why the mission is important
[01:18:47] and they believe in the mission and they know that you're going to back them up then they're
[01:18:52] going to back you up when you need that but do something like I have this whole thing right yeah
[01:18:56] this is big problem it's this big uh dance you got to go through as a leader and and I think
[01:19:05] to myself yeah I've got this figured out and so you guys know I tell people to do it I'm like man
[01:19:10] that's kind of it's kind of a bummer think of what I'm gonna tell echo to edit that out right
[01:19:14] just kidding but then this was the cool part was then he he continued to talk about it and he gave
[01:19:22] just the most perfect answer of the things that everything that we say all the time everything that
[01:19:28] we talk about national unfriend everything that I talk about in this podcast he gave it all yeah
[01:19:33] he he really just did it in reverse order of conversations we have we explained sometimes
[01:19:38] that in in really challenging environments sometimes you got to say hey go make this happen
[01:19:43] and you got to have your people say Roger that and they go make it happen you got to be able to do
[01:19:48] that sometimes but the only way for that to work in those really demanding difficult challenging
[01:19:52] environments is to go way back before and build all those relationships and create all that
[01:19:59] trust and do all those things to when people go they've just said go make this happen go make it happen
[01:20:03] we'll ask questions later he just went to that part because I almost set it up for that because
[01:20:09] the question I was asking him was how do you get a guy to jump out of your tank under fire to fix
[01:20:14] the turd and his mind that's they like there's rounds hitting the tank yeah ping ping ping ping and
[01:20:21] the the tank track falls off and someone's got to get out there and fix it and he goes to the
[01:20:26] junior guy and he's like you got to get out there and fix it and so it was he just did that whole
[01:20:32] thing in reverse already went to that part and then and I remember thinking like and that's kind
[01:20:36] of a bummer answer I really wasn't expecting that it was like you just tell him what to do and then
[01:20:41] I didn't that work for me yeah I might have to change the way yeah so
[01:20:47] when he started to go and I remember that feeling of like oh and now he's starting to explain
[01:20:51] and I looked at you a couple times like yeah and he did the whole thing and he he he he speaks
[01:20:58] very plain language too and he just sort of distilled it all down is like you have to take care of
[01:21:05] your people you have to treat your people well and if you do they will do the same for you and if you
[01:21:10] don't yes what when you say jump out of the tank under fire they're gonna say no yeah that was the
[01:21:17] best part when he actually came all the way back out and said if you just think you're just gonna
[01:21:21] tell someone to get out of my tank under fire and they don't believe what's going on and they don't
[01:21:24] trust you and you haven't taken care of them they're not going anywhere yeah every time I hear
[01:21:30] all the people you've had on the podcast I know the stories are different but they're all saying
[01:21:37] the same thing they're all saying the same thing they're all little nuance way they're all
[01:21:42] experience but it's always the same thing and that was of all of my favorite because I got to
[01:21:47] know Tom before the podcast and we got to talk quite a bit and I got to spend time with him before
[01:21:52] we went live on that recording so I enjoyed that one the most but it's everybody's saying the same thing
[01:22:00] yeah a MOOC made a huge point about that about caring about your people yeah you got to care about your
[01:22:05] people again these are guys that were that were leading drafties via nom drafties and I went off
[01:22:15] of this event we were at the other day is there any more hostile workforce in in the hit okay
[01:22:21] maybe not the history of the world but is there this is right up there you've got guys that have
[01:22:26] been because it's you know if you're a world war two and you get drafted guess what the countries
[01:22:30] behind the war it's well wrote you're gonna be a hero you but you're fighting against Nazis or
[01:22:36] ja in period of Japanese that are evil humans and you're on board for the big win we get that
[01:22:42] that's what happens create not quite so clear but guess what we still even remember World War two
[01:22:48] so guess what we're gonna go get in the game yeah via nom they straight up don't believe in the war
[01:22:54] they just straight up don't believe in the war they're there against their will under threat of
[01:23:00] prison they show up there and these are the people you're in charge of and this is the answer I
[01:23:05] give all the time now for a moment when people ask me about millennia's people are like you know we
[01:23:08] we got millennials and they got a bad attitude oh really oh really the the millennials have a bad
[01:23:15] attitude compare that to a drafted Vietnam soldier and here's the thing that I realized because
[01:23:23] and when I pulled it when I started going through hack again about Facebook and I started reading that
[01:23:29] I realized that you got to change your perspective as a leader it's not just it's not just hey
[01:23:35] because we simplify it like well if your millennials aren't doing what you want it's your fault that's
[01:23:41] that's a simplification of it because what you really got to do is you got to shift your mindset a
[01:23:46] little bit and say like what wait a second how do I take advantage of that's what hack worth was
[01:23:51] doing hack worth was same wait a second how do I take advantage these guys guess what they're going to
[01:23:56] question me if I do something wrong they're going to report things that are done correctly they're
[01:24:01] going to say no if I plan something stupid is that a bad thing let me think about it actually no
[01:24:06] that's actually not a bad thing so if you've got a millennial that's like hey if I don't like
[01:24:11] the leadership here I'm leaving the company guess what let's get that person some good leadership
[01:24:17] you got a millennial that says hey if I don't understand why we're doing what we're doing I don't
[01:24:22] I don't care I'm not going to do it okay well let's explain to that person why so they have a full
[01:24:26] understanding of what it is we're trying to get done you shift your your mindset a little bit about
[01:24:31] the whole deal and you end up in a much better position but it's a perspective shift yeah you
[01:24:35] it's the same thing we always say of it's not just take ownership of it so it's if you if you say oh
[01:24:41] my millennials aren't doing what I need to do that's my fault that doesn't make them to start
[01:24:45] doing what you need them to do you actually have to make changes in your leadership style to
[01:24:51] adapt to this attitude that's coming your way and at the end of the day if you do that you'll have
[01:24:57] someone that's smart that's motivated that will get on board with the program and we'll do a great
[01:25:03] job yeah just like a draft just like a drafty and when when we see it in in leaders all the time
[01:25:10] they they present it like can't leave these people this is unsolvable problem it is a problem
[01:25:18] that the end we're we're going downhill it's supersonic speeds and when you do what you just said
[01:25:24] and turn it change that perspective and then put it in comparison to the story of the drafties
[01:25:29] they're almost a little embarrassed like oh yeah yeah that's one of those answers when I give
[01:25:35] that answer I I I have to soften it a little bit because I just can't he's come straight back like
[01:25:41] hey these guys were taking I don't I don't throw this in their face of like hey these guys
[01:25:47] were taking drafties that didn't even believe in the war yeah and we're gonna get killed yeah
[01:25:53] yeah like hey you're asking someone to stay late but Tuesday night yeah that's what you're asking
[01:25:57] work yeah they were asking them to patrol through a mine ridden jungle right not to mention this
[01:26:04] person is actually interviewed or your company applied for job wants to be there yeah there there's
[01:26:08] a clear difference in generation is something to think about but nobody force this person
[01:26:14] to join your team or friend yeah and you see that and the the the the when the recognition hits
[01:26:21] you can see it like oh yeah no you're right this is actually a very solvable problem it just
[01:26:28] takes a work on my part yeah and I mean I that's true with everything yeah we got I mean we obviously
[01:26:35] we have all kinds of companies out there that we work with now and their work forces now becoming
[01:26:40] all millennials right their front line people right now at a company the front line people are
[01:26:46] all millennials and so if you don't figure this out who who are you gonna hire yeah who are you
[01:26:52] gonna hire I mean it's like being a Vietnam you you're gonna have drafties if you don't figure that out
[01:26:57] and and that's the other thing is you hear the bad leaders from Vietnam that was that will say
[01:27:03] all the drafties were horrible I couldn't work with them they were you know they didn't do
[01:27:06] their job take them maybe you should look in the mirror a little bit yeah and the the the best
[01:27:12] part about that is when we asked same thing with Tom five yeah because he's like that's all that's
[01:27:18] all we ever had he's almost like an interesting the question yeah no that's yeah that was our military
[01:27:23] back then when I was in the when he was in the army it was like I didn't I couldn't tell you
[01:27:29] who was a drafty you know wasn't I didn't I didn't know the difference they they're people
[01:27:34] yeah they're human beings yeah and I treated him like that and so the just the idea that you would
[01:27:40] segregate those two the drafties and the and and the the volunteer military was immediate indication of
[01:27:46] what kind of leader you had yeah and these guys were like I don't at first I don't understand the
[01:27:50] question all we had was drafties at the time we everybody was being drafted and second didn't matter to me
[01:27:55] they didn't care I didn't care we had a mission to do I explained them the impact in the
[01:28:00] importance of the mission told them they're rolling that mission and what would happen if they did
[01:28:03] or didn't do it I cared about them and we just did it and that's my favorite part about Tom
[01:28:08] five is he's he's just a plain spoken guy he doesn't have this really flowery articulate language
[01:28:12] he's like oh yeah I know I treated my people really well and when I asked him do something they
[01:28:15] did it that's kind of that's kind of it that's a pretty awesome leadership yeah advice
[01:28:20] it is to your people really well and when the time comes that you you do something that they
[01:28:26] need to do something for you they're gonna do it take care of your people and your people
[01:28:29] gonna take care of you yeah we said about our gear take your your gear take your gear take your
[01:28:34] yeah same thing take care of your people how about how about we start with that one yeah and then
[01:28:38] your people are gonna take care of you too yeah we I think we we forget those lessons sometimes you know
[01:28:44] we're like we're treated it's human capital like no they're they're people they're just people
[01:28:49] it's just treated like people treat them like you treat anybody else and you know some of those
[01:28:53] fundamental lessons you know across leadership I think in a lot of ways I was lucky to
[01:28:58] to to to see that model early in my career and I think a lot of times we end up on the path of
[01:29:04] of who were following on day one and and they can take you down the wrong road if you got the wrong
[01:29:08] people but when you see it in other people and they treat you that way and that feeling of oh this
[01:29:14] guy this guy really cares about me this guy really is invested in me being successful in me
[01:29:20] having a good good life in a good career it's it's not hard to recognize like oh that that's how
[01:29:26] that's what I should do yeah and the exact opposite is true and like when the people and
[01:29:32] I work for people that I despised and I despised because that how they treated me how they treated
[01:29:37] other people and it's very evident like don't be like that it doesn't work I'll be in a group
[01:29:43] of leaders you know we're doing to work with the company I've done this many times where I'll
[01:29:48] set it up with hey who here has had someone in your life as that would that that was in charge of
[01:29:54] you that invested in you and took care of you raise your hand and everyone raised their hand
[01:29:59] and or 99% of the people raise their hand if not 100% of people raise your hand because that's
[01:30:04] you know usually we're talking to leaders in the company and so the leaders have made progress somehow
[01:30:09] and they've made progress because someone at some point taught them and took them under their wing
[01:30:14] and cared about them and yes I say who who's had someone that cared about them invested in them
[01:30:20] and took care of them took care of you and so everyone raised their hand and how that feel
[01:30:25] and everyone says I had felt awesome what would you do for that leader I do anything for them
[01:30:29] why don't you be that leader then why don't you be that leader and take care of those people
[01:30:33] properly and you'll end up with a team they'll do anything for you not for selfish reasons
[01:30:39] because they'll see right through that you you've got to be doing it for the team when you want
[01:30:44] the team to do well then they'll do anything for you yeah I think that's an really important lesson
[01:30:51] for any leader out there for for leadership in general is how obvious what you're doing is to other people
[01:30:59] and whatever thing you're trying to hide or whatever thing you're trying to cover up or or
[01:31:04] or something you're trying to maximize let me see is everybody sees it yeah everybody sees right through it
[01:31:09] and you know we ask the same question is okay what would you want your subordinate to do to you come up
[01:31:16] and say it's not my fault I didn't have anything and this isn't my fault I couldn't
[01:31:20] anything about it you didn't send me up to win or would you like someone to walk them say hey boss
[01:31:25] I screwed this up there's a couple things I could have done differently here's what I learned
[01:31:28] and you know what I'm gonna do this next time and I'm gonna get this right and I'm gonna fix this
[01:31:32] and you say it said those two some really obvious two different scenarios and you ask
[01:31:35] you what would you like to have from your subordinates 100% of the people gonna go I want the guy
[01:31:40] that comes in and says hey is my fault I'm gonna fix it as a super obvious and then the very next
[01:31:44] question is why aren't you doing that with your boss why do you not think that your boss is
[01:31:50] having the same feeling as you would have with your subordinates and that recognition of
[01:31:55] everybody sees exactly what you're doing that's uncomfortable for people yeah the uncomfortable part
[01:32:01] is it's hard for people I guess I guess we think that if you're my boss I think you're not as smart as me
[01:32:08] and I think well he's just gonna blame me when I come in and say it's my fault you're gonna go yeah I
[01:32:12] know that's why I'm firing yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah it means like no people are smarter than that
[01:32:18] and no one wants to hear excuses no one wants to hear excuses yeah I think you know what sometimes
[01:32:23] people screw things up so bad that they're gonna get fired yeah I was just gonna say that like
[01:32:28] and guess what if you're going to make excuses guess what you're definitely gonna get fired yeah you're
[01:32:33] gonna take whatever limited chance of maybe salvaging that at the last second of like hey boss hang on
[01:32:39] let me just if you do you're just guaranteeing the outcome
[01:32:45] yeah it talks about that when he was the exo at at a sealed team and he he says you know he
[01:32:52] could get a guy that was someone's been wrong and a platoon and a guy would come in and say
[01:32:55] you know it's not my fault my chief's no good or my my LPO doesn't know what he's doing
[01:33:00] like okay you're fired yeah and then exo comes in and says hey I'm not doing a good job
[01:33:03] as well you're here's the things I'm gonna change like okay yeah we'll keep working on it let me
[01:33:07] know if you have any questions I mean if I can help you out let's get you the support you need yeah
[01:33:11] that's that's a no but that's extreme ownership dot yeah sorry
[01:33:17] we would we would have bored sometimes for for pilots you know performance boards and and we would
[01:33:22] review a lot of material and a lot of times you you have to fire somebody I mean don't like
[01:33:28] doing it but in aviation you use it's a lot of times it's their hold it's the dream we same
[01:33:32] thing with the teams like you the dream about this is a kid and you know that you are ending
[01:33:36] their life's dream crusher yeah dream crusher you're gonna you're gonna do that and not to mention
[01:33:42] paycheck gone yeah well like for officers in the sealed teams a lot of times is it or retirement
[01:33:47] or whatever it's it's a bad situation yeah it's it's massive impact it's a huge deal to do that
[01:33:52] and you you take that very seriously when you're in a position you're gonna you're gonna be one
[01:33:57] of the deciding factors in whether that person stays or goes anytime you get to that point where
[01:34:04] you're in mind like hey the best thing is to get rid of this guy and if you bring him in for
[01:34:08] this are that final interview that final interaction the guarantee way to seal your fate the guarantee
[01:34:13] way to ensure what they've already kind of concluded because that's why they're bringing you
[01:34:17] in in the first place is to not take any responsibility it's not taking any terms that is 100%
[01:34:22] guarantee now it doesn't mean that you might just not be able to you might not have the technical
[01:34:27] skills of capability sometimes you're gonna get fired and and sometimes your mistake is so
[01:34:32] agriest and does so much damage you gotta go you're gonna get fired but even then the the best thing
[01:34:40] you can do the best thing you can do is to take ownership of all that and be like hey boss
[01:34:46] I understand I'm sorry or you can go the other route and you can start to throw everybody under the bus
[01:34:53] and you know what this is what's interesting there are some people and I've talked many of them
[01:34:59] over the years many of them they don't make that connection yeah they literally don't make that
[01:35:07] connection they don't make the connection they're looking at their boss and they're saying hey
[01:35:14] this wasn't my fault it was my whoever it was my subordinate leader it was the maintenance guy
[01:35:19] it was this it was that they literally don't make the connection that if you're in charge of
[01:35:26] something or the irresponsible something and it goes wrong you're responsible for it yeah and they
[01:35:31] cannot make that connection you feel like you're you're just I I would watch when we would have a
[01:35:37] bad seal between going through my training and I bring in a a platoon commander or a platoon
[01:35:43] chief and they would live like like an assault chief so the guy is in charge of the assault
[01:35:50] he's in charge of the assault and it's like hey all your men went to the wrong target
[01:35:58] what happened well it was briefed wrong well it was this well we marked the target wasn't
[01:36:06] marked correctly the battle maps I mean literally just you come up with 20 excuses and you know
[01:36:11] what they're all they'll make sense they're like hey someone made someone put the wrong number on the
[01:36:16] brief and and everyone heard the wrong number and they looked at the battle map and they went to that
[01:36:19] building okay that's what happened who's fault is it it's not the guy that made the battle map
[01:36:23] you're in charge of the assault team you're in charge of the assault team this is this is your fault
[01:36:32] and it would I would sometimes I would just actually I would hardly ever say this was your fault
[01:36:38] I would milk I would try and milk it out of them I would be like so well I mean but still like
[01:36:44] who is in charge of the assault team if only we had a guy in charge of that person they'd say well you
[01:36:48] know I mean the easiest is the assault chief you know you can't expect it with the guy to be
[01:36:52] confirming that every single guy knows where the target is really okay okay so you're not responsible
[01:36:59] for getting the men to the target as you're not responsible for the assault as the assault chief is
[01:37:04] what I'm here so it's really horrible when you see that someone can't make the connection
[01:37:13] and this is another cool thing like on social media I see this a lot guys will hit me up
[01:37:18] girls will hit me up uh something went wrong with a client I stepped in I took ownership they
[01:37:25] thanked me problem solved got it squared away I kid people are surprised people are surprised that
[01:37:32] it works people are surprised that it works and again just to make sure everybody knows
[01:37:38] that that alone doesn't work you still have to solve the problem without you cause with the
[01:37:42] client right you you you you gave them what they need late or it's gonna be late and now you say it's my fault
[01:37:48] that doesn't mean that you don't need to get it to a ASAP and make up some corrective matters
[01:37:52] and low the price to do something so that it makes up for the problem but the worst thing you can
[01:37:56] say is well you didn't specify exactly what you wanted in the order and therefore we could get you
[01:37:59] what you wanted on time okay we're never coming back for business again and we're angry this whole time
[01:38:04] and I'm gonna short you money when we pay you in any ways if I pay you it all yeah let's make it
[01:38:09] let's make it the customer and the client's fault let's do that and it gets back to something
[01:38:14] you said earlier about the the the conversation about the millennials is just for a minute
[01:38:19] detached just take a step back real quick and just put yourself in their position what do they want
[01:38:25] to hear what do they want to hear this client that things went sideways that what they needed
[01:38:32] from you didn't happen they didn't get it delivered on time it didn't work the way it's supposed
[01:38:36] to work or worse you gave it to something and it created a problem for their customers down the line
[01:38:42] what do they want to hear from you right now you were to them go and the allergy that should
[01:38:49] come from hearing and excuses the allergic reaction hearing someone tell you it's their fault or
[01:38:54] or it's not it's not their fault it's somebody else has fault a hundred out of a hundred times
[01:38:59] you should understand and the point is it that's still hard to do it's still hard and that bridge is
[01:39:06] hard across and reading the book isn't enough it it sets the table would expose you to it but
[01:39:14] I think it comes like with everything you you have to get inside it you have to live it but the
[01:39:19] thing of it is the first time you do it the first time you do it because it works every single time
[01:39:26] when someone once you get to that tipping point once the the domino falls I think it's then it's
[01:39:34] like magic then it's just things are just happening on their own and all your people go no no no no this is
[01:39:40] this is definitely what we're going to do here we're going to tell them exactly what we did wrong
[01:39:44] how are we going to solve the problem what we're going to do to fix it and to make sure it doesn't
[01:39:46] happen again and it deescalates the client is like oh man I was really hoping we could fight and argue
[01:39:53] and you're not letting me do that now because what you're saying is everything I actually really need to
[01:39:58] hear and I'm forced to say okay let's go solve this problem and when you see it from the inside
[01:40:07] out of you start to do it that tipping point it happens quick it just takes a lot of time to get there
[01:40:12] and there's so much resistance that human nature resistance to oh there there's no way I'm
[01:40:17] taking the blame for this I've actually got a bunch of good reasons that I can give you a wise
[01:40:21] not really my fault and I'm going to kind of sell like hey boss you know those guys aren't they're
[01:40:26] not they're not the best guys you know this is not the best team here's here's a here's a
[01:40:30] say let's call it a drill or a coaching I'll call it that a coaching when the next time you get into
[01:40:37] a situation and you write down and you take the excuses and the reasons that you come up with
[01:40:44] look at them and then figure out how they were how those things were actually your fault
[01:40:50] and or how you could have prevented them because a lot of times it's like here's here's here's one
[01:40:56] hey boss we didn't get the mission accomplished because the weather rolled in and we couldn't launch
[01:41:02] on the mission that's that's the problem now we all know that we don't control the weather so
[01:41:09] when you we'll tell you write the problem down we failed the mission because we didn't control the
[01:41:13] weather we we can't control the weather that's why we failed the mission that's my excuse that's
[01:41:17] a that's a logical reason there's that's that's a that's a legitimate excuse but don't use it
[01:41:25] what you do is you say what could I have done to have controlled the weather okay I don't okay
[01:41:30] okay wait I can't control the weather what could I have done I could have come up with a contingency plan
[01:41:36] I could have come up we could have staged in a better place so then you go to the boss and you
[01:41:41] say look boss here's what happened the weather went south really bad that was a problem but it's
[01:41:50] a problem that I should have done a better job taking care of what I should have done was I should
[01:41:54] had a contingency plan I should have staged closer to the target area that I could have taken
[01:41:59] vehicles and set a helicopter's that's my fault from now on I will absolutely have a secondary plan
[01:42:06] this won't happen again we can't control the weather but we can control how we plan and how we
[01:42:11] execute and this won't happen again there you go so you take the most outrageous thing that you
[01:42:16] know you can't control you figure out a way to control it and you take ownership of that thing
[01:42:22] and it's gonna it's gonna make your life so much better and by the way the next time you have a mission
[01:42:28] and you plan that contingency and you actually execute and implement what you said you're going to
[01:42:33] do guess what you will accomplish the mission that there's a whole part of ownership that pre-empts
[01:42:39] the problem if you've got someone that knows if I know that I can make an excuse if I know that
[01:42:44] I can make an excuse think that's what I'm not gonna set things up properly if I don't set things up properly
[01:42:50] more often or more often than the other way I will fail to execute what I'm supposed to execute
[01:42:56] if you have an excuse right same same thing with you as an individual human being
[01:43:00] if you as an individual human being if you got some excuses that you can throw out there
[01:43:07] that you can say I had no control over that then you know what you say okay what are my contingency
[01:43:13] plans what could I have planned differently let's eliminate those excuses take ownership of your
[01:43:17] freaking life yeah and in that situation too when you're you're talking about this this
[01:43:24] example of the weather and if you as a leader actually accept the excuse like hey boss that's
[01:43:30] told me old-an and just crush this and you're like yeah yeah out of your control there's no
[01:43:35] way to solve for this problem it's unsolved what if you just guarantee it will happen every single time
[01:43:40] the weather rolls in you set that in stone it will never be different the weather will crush you
[01:43:45] every single time or you could go I don't know look at your weather app and go we got to go
[01:43:50] six hours early in stage and we're gonna walk in and it works both ways and if you accept those
[01:43:57] excuses you're now getting like that's a free pass for ear or not the weather is actually something
[01:44:02] we can't control so that was now something that is okay why we fail yeah it's I understand that
[01:44:09] it's hard I know that feeling and then but when you see it get to the other side and you see people
[01:44:13] doing like that that was sort of like a turning point for me mentally because as I as I grew up and
[01:44:20] I said to myself you know well I understood that I needed to take responsibility for what was happening
[01:44:28] but the turning point for me came when I realized that no matter what happened if I'm the guy in
[01:44:36] charge if I'm the guy in charge we need to get this thing done that's the way it is and when you
[01:44:42] when you have that thought in your brain the preparation you do is so much more solid because there's
[01:44:46] no way out yeah there's no way out so you got to execute when when leaders see the world like that
[01:44:56] when they see it that way they just work until the problem gets solved they just do everything they
[01:45:03] need to do until they find a way to fix the problem to solve it and when they don't think like that
[01:45:09] they they're they're outlets they're off ramps of like ah can't do it can't do it can't do it
[01:45:13] can't do it and we used to we call that the excuse matrix that's the word you're like oh
[01:45:18] come to the excuse matrix yeah and and and then the other part of this you got to remember is this
[01:45:23] doesn't mean this doesn't mean that I'm gonna bang my head up against the wall 47 times
[01:45:30] yeah to accomplish the mission that just like oh guess what part of this is hey I didn't plan it well
[01:45:37] I made some mistakes I didn't calculate correctly and now we are not gonna get this done
[01:45:45] and that's the way it is and so I'm not saying you continue to beat your head against the wall
[01:45:50] 47 47 is the limit don't do 48 when you've done 48 you've gone too far you're not gonna get
[01:45:57] through the wall yeah trust me if you can get through a wall they'll get through by the 47 head but
[01:46:02] after that it's not happening so you gotta take a little you gotta look for the alternate row
[01:46:06] yeah so there's a difference there's a difference between we're gonna get this done no matter what
[01:46:12] and we're gonna get this done no matter what you sometimes you got to back off
[01:46:18] yeah sometimes you gotta reattach that's the way it is yeah sometimes you gotta reassess
[01:46:23] your plan and somebody got to get you got to go a different direction and when it all costs
[01:46:28] doesn't mean I'm gonna charge that elevated machine gun deaths through open ground
[01:46:33] wave after wave after wave it means you're gonna do something else it doesn't mean you're gonna
[01:46:38] abandon the attack on that position but you might actually do it a different way and it may be like
[01:46:43] my plan sucked here's all the things that I learned about my stupid plan anybody got else
[01:46:49] it may back get some help hey that's what I've seen this before this what we did that's a good
[01:46:52] idea let's do that plan and you know we again we could talk about this for a long time but I think
[01:46:59] that that natural tendency to be exposed as as someone who doesn't know something to be exposed
[01:47:07] as someone who doesn't have all the answers to expose as a leader who doesn't know everything
[01:47:11] I'm gonna let you in a little secret everybody already knows that everybody knows that you
[01:47:19] don't know everything and if you try to act like you do it will make it ten times worse than just
[01:47:25] saying I actually don't know what to do here or I made a mistake here when you make a mistake
[01:47:31] everybody knows it your subordinates know it your peers know it your boss is know it
[01:47:35] and the worst thing you can do is to tell them that you didn't that's why being insecure in
[01:47:42] your leadership capabilities is a downward spiral because the more insecure you are the more you
[01:47:48] try and manipulate the main thing everything and keep everything under your wraps and do everything
[01:47:53] your way and that's how it is so when you're insecure as a leader and that's another that's
[01:47:58] another thing that takes a little bit of a leap of faith that's another like progression that I
[01:48:03] personally made I personally made and I can't remember when but when I was like you know what
[01:48:10] it's okay it's okay I'm not gonna be I'm not the best in the world and everybody knows that
[01:48:20] and the more I try to act like that the more obvious that's gonna be and the minute you say that
[01:48:26] the minute you recognize that people are going hmm okay he might not be the best but at least he
[01:48:33] knows that as opposed to he's not the best and he thinks he is that's a nightmare yeah I want
[01:48:38] to work for that guy and the the best part about what you just said is that that's something we all
[01:48:44] had to learn that's something we all had to figure out at some point in our life none of us were born
[01:48:48] like oh no I knew all this at birth it's from these giant errors that we've made or giant mistakes
[01:48:54] where these giant realizations like I've been doing it wrong and everybody has to figure that out
[01:49:00] and that and that right there that is one of the most gratifying things about what we do now
[01:49:06] is that this gap that we talked about earlier this little gap between like how do you read something
[01:49:13] you read something and then how do you get that thing out of it how do you extract that
[01:49:20] vital piece of information that's in there how do you do that how do you tell look it looks like
[01:49:25] when you're kidding you don't listen to your parents right you just how do you get that he close
[01:49:29] that gap and what's awesome about what we do now is that we get to close that gap with people we get
[01:49:35] I mean I see it on a daily basis on a daily basis with the leaders that we work with you get to see
[01:49:41] their eyes open up and you go boom they get it now everything we just talked about which you know
[01:49:46] which we had to learn over time and extrapolate from our experiences and then on top of that go through
[01:49:53] horrible situations where we fail as leaders and we've figured out a way to say look here it is
[01:50:01] here's how it works and to see people's eyes open up and then to see the performance that's the best
[01:50:07] to see the performance go through the roof as the leader and then of course when the leader
[01:50:15] starts doing well then the leaders start doing well and when all the leaders start doing well
[01:50:18] guess what now we have a winning team yeah two emphasize what you said that eyes opening that's a
[01:50:26] literal thing like they're not of metaphor you look at them and when you finally get it to click
[01:50:33] when you when their eyes actually open up and they sit up straight and they kind of sit back a little bit
[01:50:40] and there is a moment a physical moment are you recognize that they got it and when you see that
[01:50:48] and you can actually sit in an audience when you when you when you're talking to a group like
[01:50:52] maybe multiple leaders on the team and you're around a conference table and you're interacting and you
[01:50:55] bring up a particular example that they're dealing with you lay out the different possible scenarios
[01:50:59] and the one that is obviously the right one and they go oh my god when they get that that feeling
[01:51:06] is unbelievable and it's the best part about this is when they get it but you literally see that
[01:51:11] happen and that is awesome and that's that for me so when my last three years when I was in the
[01:51:16] team's not working run in the training for the West Coast heel teams and I got to see that I got
[01:51:21] to see that with these young leaders and just I'm it's it's in my head right I got to tell
[01:51:26] the story there's a young kid who I know who's an awesome guy and I didn't really know him
[01:51:31] that well this time but he was kind of like a pipe hitter in a platoon and there's totally
[01:51:34] me I'm going on total chaos going on and I just like go over to him and like his you know his
[01:51:39] platoon commander was simulated dead and blah blah blah blah blah and the platoon chief was simulated
[01:51:44] and the LPO wasn't making a call and it's total chaos man when I walk over to him and I'm like
[01:51:48] hey man and he's like yeah and and I go hey man bro are you going to do something about this right
[01:51:55] here and and that was all he needed to hear all he needed to hear was like that guy that was in
[01:52:01] charge at all this training was telling me like was asking me a question he was questioning me
[01:52:06] and saying are you going to do something about this his eyes opened up and he said oh hell yes
[01:52:11] I am and boom he starts stepped up started making calls and the whole the whole paradigm in the
[01:52:17] situation completely changed because he's he stepped up and let and so I got to see that then
[01:52:23] and I get to see it now so that's a cool thing yeah it is and the stories about my experience
[01:52:29] at top going to are are identical and when when you go out of missions and they suck and you get
[01:52:36] savage and it's just terrible guys come back and and they're miserable losing sucks man it sucks
[01:52:45] when you have this huge plenty of out there and you get savage it sucks and then when you go
[01:52:49] through this whole thing and there's that recognition and they change away they breathe they change
[01:52:53] away they train they change away they do things with their guys and they go out and they come back
[01:52:57] and when you dominate that feeling of coming back from a flight and you just dominated
[01:53:01] that's a really good feeling and so when when they do this and they start winning like you
[01:53:07] just described you got that team then they start winning then then then then they are then
[01:53:12] they are thorough but as they're running on and then you get as a leader get to back off and like
[01:53:16] and just get to watch them go dominate that feeling of being successful when you implement these
[01:53:21] things as a leader that's the best feeling in the world and when you see that from your
[01:53:27] your junior sports from your subornus from your team and you see them go do that there is nothing
[01:53:33] better than that and then you get to say well we get to see I used to see this the opening you
[01:53:38] get to see it start to take all the yeah and but Echo you've talked about this where I'm like
[01:53:44] where you you know what I'm doing like with you you know what I'm doing you sat here through
[01:53:51] hundreds of hours of me talking about how I'm going to treat someone on my team
[01:53:56] and you're like you know what I'm doing and it's still worth 100% and what cool is when you know
[01:54:05] what the person's doing when you know what your your leaders doing and it still works then you go
[01:54:11] you know what I'm going to do it too and that's how it spreads throughout these words out of the
[01:54:14] spreads yeah because okay so let's say I don't know I make a mistake or something like that and
[01:54:20] you say hey it's you know I should have done this little better right so it's like obvious like
[01:54:26] that's that's that has never been your job not you know since whatever whatever that may be right
[01:54:31] so obviously I'm like like I know what you're doing your bigger than your true ownership you know just so
[01:54:36] we can get the problems up I get it but to me what I felt was not what you're doing but what you're
[01:54:44] not doing you're not telling me hey what's up with this you know hey why did you make that you're not
[01:54:50] you're not attacking me so so I have to be defensive you know you're not doing that so it's not
[01:54:55] defensive I say what you're doing the whole thing but okay whatever whatever you're like okay
[01:55:01] all right and you wish you want to do is get it done whatever the thing is we all want to get it done
[01:55:05] that's the thing we all want to you know even like with your wife that's that's a huge one so
[01:55:09] then you guys always talking in context of business you know the boss and the support and that's
[01:55:14] whatever same exact thing with your wife same thing even though it feels like counter intuitive you know
[01:55:19] you're you you had all this stuff to do that you're doing for her by the way and you didn't take
[01:55:25] out the trash I don't know I'm not saying that happened to me not saying it didn't happen to me
[01:55:30] but you didn't take out the trash meanwhile you did literally from the moment you woke up to to that
[01:55:34] moment you got you know accused of whatever you did stuff for her right you couldn't
[01:55:40] done that hypothetically you hurt her saying hey you know you you didn't take out the trash all those
[01:55:49] feelings in your mind in your heart is to it's not to be like you're right I should have done that it's
[01:55:55] not to say that it's the same the opposite yeah that's like I did all this other stuff for you so
[01:56:00] you're doing it overwhelming like I will not and cannot bring myself to say you're right you're
[01:56:10] right about that but if you can manage to do that you'd be baffled how easy how good it works
[01:56:17] it works yeah but yeah it's it's what you're not doing I think like if you know like I see what you're
[01:56:23] doing I see you're doing there using your little chocolate tricks all this stuff that's not the
[01:56:27] influential part you're not doing you know it's so funny now because everyone I deal with now
[01:56:34] every single person that I deal with on any level on any on any depth at all they all know
[01:56:43] all my little tricks as you call them they all know every every person I'm involved with knows them
[01:56:48] all yeah and it's like yeah cool I'll go even one further with this guy he'll go he'll it's almost
[01:56:56] like he'll double do it to the point where it's a joke insulting you and you think it's funny
[01:57:03] yet you're still not different so he'll be like I don't know whatever let's say I didn't press
[01:57:07] record and the thing forgot we'll just say never done that before maybe not have ever done that before
[01:57:13] but he'll be like hey you're right you know I should I should double and triple check that thing you
[01:57:17] know I mean it's wherever there but I still totally could it you know so obvious he's throwing
[01:57:21] anything in your face you know that it's not his fault but he's like going through the motions almost
[01:57:25] like like kind of kind of understanding you know but it's so funny because that's the rule kind of
[01:57:30] thing so it's like he's he's blaming you but he's not really officially blaming you and it's just
[01:57:35] but it still works that's the thing you know so because it's all just one day yeah meanwhile
[01:57:41] yeah the whole recording is trash by the way because it didn't even happen but yeah you're not
[01:57:45] defensive because it's just you know it's like well I don't I don't say this the reason why it works
[01:57:51] code unquote the reason it works is in a reason it works with the people that I deal with in my
[01:57:56] life for my family to by business partners across the board the reason that it works is because
[01:58:02] I'm not doing it for me that that's the big difference so if you're out there and you're thinking
[01:58:08] oh cool I'm gonna learn these tactics so I can I can get further in my life and I can get things
[01:58:13] out of the world to take no it's it's not gonna work out well for you yeah on the surface because
[01:58:18] I'm gonna tell you what you gotta take that one step further because guess what if this is the
[01:58:24] this is the amazing thing if what you're doing is you're focused on taking care of the team
[01:58:29] taking care of your people doing the right thing for the right reasons and you're and you think to
[01:58:34] yourself so if you're listening to this right now going well I really want to I really want to get ahead
[01:58:39] and jocco just said I'm not gonna get ahead if I if I put myself to get ahead then it's not
[01:58:49] gonna work so this isn't for me here's the here's the dichotomy in this thing and it's a huge
[01:58:55] dichotomy if you're there and you're in a leadership position or you're just in a position
[01:59:00] you're in a relationship whatever and you're doing things for the team you're trying to take care
[01:59:06] of the others you're putting other people above you in the end you're going to win and you're
[01:59:15] gonna win way bigger than you could if you were clawing and scratching and ripping things and
[01:59:22] bringing them back to yourself the end that person that thinks that thinks that they're doing the
[01:59:28] right thing or things that they're doing something good for themselves but what they're really
[01:59:32] doing is taking things from other people that person they might get a couple of tactical victories
[01:59:36] along the way but in the end the person that puts everyone else first is going to win they are
[01:59:43] going to win so it's it's kind of hypocritical because it's like in one hand it's like no I don't
[01:59:49] care about myself I'm not trying to improve I'm not trying to try to improve my station in life
[01:59:55] but by doing that you will improve your station in life and you will improve your station in life
[02:00:00] beyond anything that you could have done if your goal was to improve your station in life
[02:00:09] that's good stuff right there
[02:00:10] yes it is take note of that one yeah any other major topics that you want to bring up tonight
[02:00:19] it works especially with your wife not also with your wife but especially with your wife
[02:00:28] yeah and so it should just be habit that anytime she says you didn't do this it actually
[02:00:34] she's right you didn't and just be like you're right I didn't I have learned that lesson
[02:00:41] yeah a few times yeah and again this is going to sound obvious but it's one of those things you
[02:00:46] got a kind of consciously remember especially if you're with your wife with someone you're with
[02:00:51] every day or really really often the part yeah you take a you take ownership you take this
[02:00:56] responsibility but then you actually do have to actually solve the problem because if you're like hey
[02:01:00] you're right in take out that trash you know I mean you know it won't happen again and then tomorrow
[02:01:05] same thing to my same thing next week same things same things you then you just sort of become
[02:01:09] the husband that doesn't take out the trash and it just says yeah it's my fault kind of thing
[02:01:13] and you you've become the and that's my bad yeah my bad my bad my bad my bad start about that
[02:01:18] and then that's all you do is say that it's on me yeah and in the c.s so don't let me know
[02:01:26] one of you trick take out the trash once in a while yeah kind of you know obviously don't say that
[02:01:31] but you actually do have to take out the trash it out problems get solved see I learned that
[02:01:37] I'm juggle alright that's a good one and Dave obviously thank you for coming on again
[02:01:46] thanks for your service in the Marine Corps and for everything you done for America
[02:01:52] it's always an honor to have known you to have work with you and it's an honor to be
[02:01:58] working with you right now and I actually want to close out this conversation with another letter
[02:02:06] and it's also written by that same that same young articulate even poetic Marine Corps
[02:02:16] machine gunner Saul sigal who wrote the letter that opened this podcast and this
[02:02:23] one is written to the cousin of one of his comrades one of his comrades named James Trobridge
[02:02:34] and the cousin did not know what happened to her cousin Corp. Trobridge who had gone missing
[02:02:42] in a world war one and she had known what happened to him and so this is another letter written
[02:02:50] after the end of the war it's dated February 18th 1920 and it reads my dear mistro bridge
[02:03:03] my old sergeant major Clifford has written me and as enclosed a copy of your letter to him
[02:03:08] in which you request information concerning your cousin Corp. James H. Trobridge
[02:03:14] it is indeed unfortunate that his family should be left so uncertain concerning his
[02:03:21] sad end I know that it has been the cause of great concern with you I am sorry to that I had not
[02:03:28] known of this before for I was the last of his friends to see him alive
[02:03:33] those sergeant Clifford wrote me January 16th I have been out adventuring in the oil fields
[02:03:41] of northern Texas and I have only lately ventured back into civilization. Your letter was
[02:03:48] forwarded to me from my home in Ohio and I received it tonight and I'm taking this first occasion
[02:03:55] to answer it I hope it will clear up Jim's case and if there's anything I can do in the future
[02:04:00] any service I can perform any advice I can offer to Jim's folks I will be at their service at all times
[02:04:10] we who have survived this hell on earth count it the least we can do to console the
[02:04:17] sowing mothers and families of our dead comrades in arms.
[02:04:21] I still remember when I first met Jim it was in Bella Woods on the 13th of June we were
[02:04:32] making ready for the attack when replacements arrived to fill up our broken ranks. Jim was assigned
[02:04:38] to my gun crew and the way he went over the top like the brave soldier he always was and his
[02:04:45] subsequent actions made me his proud friend in comrade to the day he went west.
[02:04:55] I still remember one night on guard with Jim in the little hole alongside the night held
[02:05:02] and eerie stillness a night fit for such a hell hole. I was defy tired and though there was no
[02:05:12] wire only an empty space between the Germans and us I slept and Jim like the good pal he was
[02:05:20] kept watching till the officer of the watch came by when he awakened me that I might not be shot
[02:05:25] for sleeping at my post. It was for deeds like that that every man in the company idolized him
[02:05:35] and I can assure you that Jim trobbridge name and memory will forever be held in reverence
[02:05:41] by the survivors of the 23rd company. So many men were wounded and left us then came back during
[02:05:51] the battles that followed Bella Woods to the last phase of the Argonne Drive that I must confess
[02:05:57] ignorance as to whether Jim was or not. You see Jim was assigned to a crew of his own
[02:06:04] and a machine gun of his own and on the battle line the number one and number ten gun maybe
[02:06:11] in the same company yet they are a world apart. Each carries on and knows that the other is
[02:06:20] carrying on and so the battle is won. Yet I dimly remember that Jim was either gasped or wounded
[02:06:30] in the champagne drive in which the second division captured Mont Blanc Ridge.
[02:06:38] It began on October 2nd 1918. Jim came back to us before the last phase the Argonne Drive
[02:06:45] which began on November 1st 1918 through the mud and rain and fog we pushed forward over the top
[02:06:53] that glorious day the second division leading the whole army. We captured every piece of
[02:07:02] both field artillery white hot they were and we sent the German scurrying back and broke their
[02:07:08] invincible line to bits. My company suffered terribly in dead and wounded.
[02:07:17] Yet we carried on hungry and tired and facing the everlasting hail of bullets and shells.
[02:07:27] We pushed forward for six days battling steadily. The 6th of November rose dismaly.
[02:07:36] I remember passing Jim by the roadside and he gave me a cheery hail.
[02:07:41] Then he followed up the rear we went forward and the boat began shelling us.
[02:07:49] As the last of the column came up I heard from them that Jim's crew had rested once again
[02:07:55] by the roadside. None of us were strong. We had not eaten in days.
[02:08:02] A great shell had exploded and it killed and wounded all of Jim's crew. Jim had had a foot torn
[02:08:09] off by a flying fragment. There was death and destruction all about. I volunteered to help
[02:08:18] carry a wounded man back to the first aid station. There was Jim lying on the blanketed floor.
[02:08:29] I knelt down to speak to him. I marked that his face was already drawn with pain
[02:08:36] and that he was gray from long exposure and loss of blood. He said,
[02:08:45] Saul, old pal, I'm dying. Good luck to you old man. I tried to cheer him up but to no avail. On the
[02:08:59] battlefield one knows when death approaches. That is all I know. For a few hours later I was knocked
[02:09:11] out myself. Yet I doubt not that Jim went west to home and to mother soon after.
[02:09:23] Weather Jim died and was buried in the village a few miles south of C. Dan in the
[02:09:28] Arden's department or whether he survived until he reached the hospital. I do not know.
[02:09:33] You can find out by running the graves registration bureau at Washington. That he has gone
[02:09:44] I am reasonably sure. I would advise his family to harbor no unfounded hopes in his safety.
[02:09:51] It is with deeper grit that I ask yours and Jim's mother's pardon for my heartless and
[02:10:04] brutal description of this story. My experiences on the battlefield have caused me to use other
[02:10:09] than tender words that might sue the broken hearted mother. Believe me, nevertheless, that I
[02:10:20] grieve with her for her son and my comrade and believe me too that I stand ready to do all in my
[02:10:30] power to assist her in any possible way. It is hard. I know yet at such a cost has liberty and democracy
[02:10:45] survived except my dear mistrode bridge the assurance of my profound respect.
[02:10:57] Most sincerely. Sol Sequel. So liberty and democracy survived.
[02:11:19] But at such a cost and so many bore that cost, the fighting that Sol Sequel writes about
[02:11:38] was part of the Muse Argon offensive. There's part of the hundred days offensive
[02:11:44] that brought the war to an end. And while bringing the war to the end, it cost the lives of
[02:11:55] 26,277 Americans. Corporal James Trobridge was one of those Americans. He died around the 6th of November
[02:12:09] 1918. And as we know, the armistice was signed and the war ended just five days later.
[02:12:24] On November 11th 1918. War is held in the cost of liberty. In the cost of the democracy is immense.
[02:12:48] And I started this podcast. We were talking about that quote. The quote that says,
[02:12:58] when you know the way broadly, you see it and everything. Well, in that vein, I think that if you know
[02:13:12] the cost broadly, if you know the cost of freedom, then you see it and you appreciate it in everything.
[02:13:25] In everything that we have been given, especially our most precious gift.
[02:13:37] And that is freedom. And I think that's all I've got for tonight.
[02:14:00] And I think at this point, echo if you want to maybe give us an opportunity to decompress
[02:14:12] or maybe we could help you talk about how we can take advantage of the freedom that we have.
[02:14:26] Yes, sir. Cool. We'll do both. And support yourself too, by the way.
[02:14:37] So first, we'll talk about origin. I know a little bit of rough transition because
[02:14:43] that's how it's because that's a letter right there. Yeah, again,
[02:14:48] what now he's so now he's 22, says 19, 20, 22 years old Dave. Yeah, unreal.
[02:14:57] Yeah, I tried to figure out what happened to him. Like what where where he went,
[02:15:02] did he take over like a big company? He must have done something awesome.
[02:15:07] Saul, Cigal. Cigal. Yeah, it's S-E-G-E-L.
[02:15:12] Cigal, Cigal. Cigal. Cigal. Cigal. She should have become a writer. They should have, I'm absolutely become a writer.
[02:15:17] Maybe he was. Yeah, you read these letters. And again, you say it's all time, but you kind of can't help,
[02:15:26] but remember, especially this kind of letters that like this actual person. It's not just some cool letter.
[02:15:33] You know, kind of thing. It's like this actual person writing this letter to an actual person.
[02:15:38] Just like all about an actual person. Yeah, about James Trobridge. Yeah, crazy.
[02:15:47] All right, well, I guess we can talk about origin.
[02:15:51] Made in America, I guess there's that. There's that. So yeah, so again, origin. Yeah, so they have American-made
[02:15:58] products. Good products, too. As in the best. Yeah, I think they're the best. Like here's the thing.
[02:16:05] You know, when people are like, yeah, they got the best thing. It's like in some matter of opinion. So I can't tell you
[02:16:10] they're the best, but I can't tell you. I think can you not say it's the best key. Yeah, oh, it's the best key. Okay.
[02:16:15] Factually. That's a factually thing. Yeah. So keys. So yeah, if, okay, on the path, we're on the path. They're
[02:16:21] burying on the path. On the path. You just as part of that path. Optional. For sure, optional, but it is part of the path.
[02:16:27] It's not not part of the path. It's the same. So maybe questioning whether it's optional. Yeah.
[02:16:32] No, no, no, no, because you've heard of people who don't necessarily do Gigietsu, but they're on the path.
[02:16:38] Oh, my path. Yeah. Yeah, you should try and change Gigietsu though. It's my recommendation. It's like strongly
[02:16:44] recommend. Dave. Recommendation? Yeah, you're nice. Gigietsu. It's not a recommendation. You need to do it.
[02:16:50] Yeah, it's weird. It's just, it's something unlike anything else I've ever done, and it's something
[02:16:55] you need to do. And it's there's a million different reasons to do it. And it's look echo. It's not an option.
[02:17:03] If you're on the path, you're training. You're a beautiful, they've worked. But not work.
[02:17:07] Right. So by the way, representing the origin t-shirt. Big time. If someone's wondering
[02:17:11] about the gizy knee boy. So yeah, boom, there you go. So when you start your gitsu or if you're on the
[02:17:19] gitsu path, they're ready. You need a new Gigi. Origin Gip, S1 made in America 100%. Cotton's made in
[02:17:25] America. They make the cotton into a gig with with other stuff. Obviously because it's, you know, a
[02:17:29] Gigi. They got raskards in other jiu jitsu stuff on there as well. OriginMain.com.
[02:17:37] joggers. Okay, how you feel about joggers? Overall, I mean, we've come along with it's face it.
[02:17:41] How you feel about joggers? We're talking about me. If you are indicating that I have made some
[02:17:46] movement towards, I'm going to be sport repair joggers. If that's what you're thinking, it's not.
[02:17:51] You know, there's been no movement. No movement. Still like no movement. No, the pre phase one. Pre phase
[02:17:57] one. Yep. They're not happening for me. Would you say anti joggers? Possibly. Because I've been
[02:18:01] wearing a lot of anti. I don't look at people and say, oh man, I can't believe that guy is wearing
[02:18:05] joggers. I don't care about it that much. Right, right. But it's still like it's a zero. It's not a negative.
[02:18:10] Yes, just like the jiu jitsu. Zero. Well, I don't get it. Yeah, I did get man.
[02:18:16] There's a lot of things that you might not get. Nonetheless, I am not in that boat. I mean,
[02:18:20] just a lot of things. I'm just saying there are things that you kind of don't get. Right off.
[02:18:25] Overall, they've been so much in the middle of the river. Anyway, joggers. T-shirts. Obviously,
[02:18:29] Dave Burke representing big time hardcore. If you will. Big time. Big time. Huge time. Actually,
[02:18:35] yeah, look at that shirt. It's dope. Anyway, there are a sweats as well. You know, sweats
[02:18:42] are most comfortable in the world. That's factually. That's like not even matter opinion.
[02:18:46] Sure. Sounds like it's not though. Also supplements. Okay. Dave Burke. You're on the
[02:18:51] dis, okay. There's supplements, right? Jockel, super krill oil. For you joins Omega 3's all that
[02:18:55] anti-oxidants in there. All kinds of stuff. Good for your joints legitimately. Yeah. Not this,
[02:19:02] you don't want a day, a commercial thing. This is for real good for your joints. That's that.
[02:19:08] Joint warfare. Good for your joints in a different way. But very good for your joints. Discipline.
[02:19:14] Good for your brain. Good for your muscles. Called discipline. Prework out pre cognitive, not pre
[02:19:21] cognitive, but pre mission. We'll call it cognitive enhancing neutral. Okay. Well, you know,
[02:19:26] who's down with the discipline? Dave Burke. I am down with the discipline. What? When do you take it?
[02:19:32] I take it usually twice a day. So get up workout. I'm tracking for a while in about 10-10
[02:19:38] 30. And that's about the time I sit down and I have to, I got a grind at my computer and I really
[02:19:44] don't want to, but I need to. And I got to put my brain into the thing, I will take discipline
[02:19:49] and I will crank for a while. And then the other time I do it is typically like post bedtime
[02:19:54] the kids. And I would really like to do is just call it a day. Oh, oh. But I can't get some. Yeah,
[02:20:01] I got it. And that's, that's what I'll take it. What about pre-gejitsu? I every time I go train
[02:20:08] on the drive. I thought it would be like, well, no, not really because of it. Yeah, he's like, no, every time I go train.
[02:20:15] I was mixing one up at the house today and he said, oh, what are we going wrong? And I was like, yeah,
[02:20:20] he goes and I guess I'm going to do that. You had to read legit schools there. These are keeping
[02:20:25] schools here. I think it might end up being four. And I don't know if you noticed this, but I had a
[02:20:29] pretty small water bottle. Yeah. So I'm, I'm mixing up these super charged
[02:20:33] things. Yeah, I'm going to stop. I have eaten it before. It doesn't taste good brawl, right?
[02:20:41] You don't. But I have to. But anyway, so that's discipline. I did. And then you, you take
[02:20:49] milk. Again, this is good that you're here because I tell everyone it tastes good that to me.
[02:20:56] But I'm only one person. You like it too. Minced your flavor too, right? Okay, so here's the thing.
[02:21:02] I got to explain that because you're here. They broke your here. You're on the discipline train.
[02:21:07] I dig it. I'm on the milk train. Okay. So what the heck? Here's the thing. I never was. And even like,
[02:21:15] you know, even a pepperacopicase. A number of episodes ago, I would say more than once, by the way.
[02:21:21] Down like protein powder, that's what the kids take to make them think they're getting big.
[02:21:26] Whatever. Right. That's kind of how I felt about it. And I, you know, okay. Okay. We'll say that.
[02:21:32] But okay. So Pete sent me the vanilla. Is in a blank container. It's not coming. Yeah. Yeah.
[02:21:40] So it's kind of like, something like cool. I put it in. I was like, dang. This is pretty good.
[02:21:45] Yeah. It's interesting. It's vanilla, by the way. Yeah. So it's not a good flavor, right? I think even like
[02:21:50] one of the definitions of vanilla is like, it's just cool. It's fine. We're not excited about
[02:21:56] vanilla. Yeah. But it's good. You know, we were a little bit. I got a little bit excited. So I'm like,
[02:22:00] hmm, but it could be my bias. You know, it's Pete. You know, thanks. Pete, you know, you get the big
[02:22:04] box. You're all excited. It could be, you know, you could be by yourself. So I'm like, all right,
[02:22:08] you know what the test is? Here's the test. I have a one year or two year. He's almost two. Oh, yeah.
[02:22:13] So I'm like, all right. Let me. So I give it to him. I don't recommend giving them a bunch. I don't
[02:22:18] know if all the protein, 22 grams of protein, by the way. Yeah. Two grams of sugar. No, one gram of sugar.
[02:22:25] Yeah. Two total carbs. Two grams of fat, by the way, which I mean, feel how you want to feel about
[02:22:31] fat like it's good or whatever, but Brad, this is a for real protein deal. Like you want extra protein,
[02:22:35] they're not going to give you a bunch of stuff. You didn't sign up for anyway. I don't. So I'm like,
[02:22:39] okay, my son's, do you have a real problem with things that you don't sign up for? I know to
[02:22:43] set about you. Like that's one year things. One of them. Yeah. Don't sign up for something and it
[02:22:48] comes anyways. You don't like that unless it's a box of good stuff from Pete, then you didn't sign up for
[02:22:52] everybody do like that. There is that. Yes. So boom. I give it to him. Mix it up. No, by the way,
[02:23:00] just to beat in the spirit of accuracy. Boom hit it. Yeah. He liked it. So I'm like, oh, okay, but it could
[02:23:06] be one of those things. Was that meant? Was that vanilla? No, vanilla, vanilla. Yeah. So I'm like,
[02:23:11] all right, well, it could be an amelina. You give like someone that maybe found a, I don't know,
[02:23:15] he'll taste it. You know, he's like more, more, more, more. So I'm trying to get out my phone.
[02:23:20] So I get a video to send to Pete and he's like, Boris, kind of tripping. So I'm like, all right,
[02:23:24] so I finally get the video going and I give it to him. Yeah, he wants it. Once the milk,
[02:23:29] to hear a drinking milk, not say to give it to you to you. I'm saying as a taste test, that works.
[02:23:33] That's vanilla, by the way. So anyway, just confirmed confirmed and that's vanilla. So I like the
[02:23:40] the mint chocolate. Yeah. 100%. And peanut butter chocolate is now live at origin main.com.
[02:23:49] Is that official? That was official. That's official. Yes. All right. That is official. So all my Twitter
[02:23:54] competition of who's going to get the first peanut butter chocolate is on. It's good too. It's good.
[02:24:01] Because I've had it because we we tested it and we went through like three. It didn't, the cool thing is
[02:24:06] it didn't take that many iterations to get it. It was like a little bit more chocolate,
[02:24:10] a little bit more peanut butter. All right. I think it was three iterations and we were good.
[02:24:14] I will say this. Send it. Oh, yeah, please. I put like a half a tablespoon of peanut butter
[02:24:22] in the mint chocolate. Right. As a test and boom, I like that too. So there we go. So yeah,
[02:24:28] we're getting it for that. Anyway, yeah, and don't forget the crew are in the joint war
[02:24:31] for this. These are daily things. We need this. Yeah. Take it from me. We need this. It'll run out.
[02:24:36] Also, good way to support and represent because representing is a method of support. In my opinion.
[02:24:46] Jocquad store. It's called Jocquad store. You can get Jocquad gier rash guards. Jocquad gear. Like it's
[02:24:53] like more geared towards the game. Good after it all that stuff. Anyway, yeah,
[02:25:00] rash guards t-shirts, dyslinicals, freedom, all these things. A lot of stuff concepts
[02:25:04] conceptually representing by way of a peril. You don't like the word a peril. No, I'm sorry.
[02:25:10] A peril clothing. Yeah, those things are fashion. No. Okay. Okay. Okay. That's the
[02:25:15] right. Okay. Got you. So anyway, accessories. If you will, some hats on there, some good stuff,
[02:25:20] some whims stuff on there. If you want to represent, go to jocquad store.com. That's where you get the
[02:25:24] stuff. Also, you want to subscribe to the podcast if you haven't already. Seems obvious, right?
[02:25:30] And that's on stature, iTunes, Google Play. You know, all these places where they play podcast,
[02:25:37] good way to support and leave a review. And don't forget about this podcast. Also, there's a war
[02:25:42] your kid podcast. Yes. So subscribe to the war, war your kid podcast. Dave Burke was the first
[02:25:48] guests on the war your kid podcast. Number 16, which is out at this time. If you want to hear him
[02:25:54] answer questions from children about being a Marine Corps fighter pilot. And there's also some
[02:26:02] stories from Uncle Jake in the most recent three podcasts, 14, 15 and 16. There's some stories from
[02:26:09] Uncle Jake talking about how Uncle Jake kind of established his principles in life. So those are
[02:26:17] pretty cool. And in addition to the war your kid podcast being available through the various podcast
[02:26:25] channels, it is also available on YouTube on a separate channel from the jockel podcast YouTube channel,
[02:26:33] which has this podcast on it, which is pretty cool. But it also has the custom, custom,
[02:26:42] artistic videos videos. I was looking enhanced and wicked cool videos from echo Charles with about
[02:26:54] whatever. And well, hey, this event, we just actually David and I just didn't event and they played
[02:27:00] the war path video, but good one. And it was on, no, this is legit. He was on a giant screen with a
[02:27:08] six sound system. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Cool. Actually, that legitimately doesn't make
[02:27:14] me feel good. Yeah. And a big, big crystal clear HD TV something with a whole deal.
[02:27:21] A little fork. It is a fork. It was mass. Probably. Oh. And I was like four feet from it,
[02:27:27] because we were about to walk on stage. So I was real close to it. Yeah. And he was got the
[02:27:30] police. Yeah. I'm in that video. Yeah. You are. You do your Ninja pose. Yeah. Ninja Jedi. I don't think
[02:27:38] Ninja's do. Nonetheless, the YouTube thing I was thinking about this too, sometimes like when
[02:27:43] when podcasts come out, not necessarily, but you know, other podcasts or whatever, sometimes they'll
[02:27:46] put it on YouTube, but they'll just have the image on there. Oh, yeah. Just for another source of audio,
[02:27:51] which is good. But you get, you got to add it to mention where we do. It is a video, so if you want
[02:27:57] to see what Dave Burke looks like, if you don't know, I'm saying, if you would. I'm going to see what
[02:28:01] Jockel looks like. If for some reason, I don't know. Boom. You can tell he looks like that picture.
[02:28:05] Somebody posted of what they thought you looked like. I'm going to ask that question on the
[02:28:12] source. I'm going to say, what did you think echo Charles looked like? Yeah. Yeah. That seems like
[02:28:19] that. What did you think echo Charles looked like? I think it looks exactly the way he does.
[02:28:24] I was not an elisput surprise. Oh, you, you. Okay. Yeah. It's good. Deal Dave Burke. Yeah. I know
[02:28:28] his it man. You heard it here. Actually, wait. Did you, but you didn't hear me first. You met me first,
[02:28:32] right? That was Irlina or did you hear that? No, no. I guess my voice. I don't think I heard you
[02:28:38] long before I mentioned all, but you know, you can tell. Yeah. You can tell. You can tell.
[02:28:42] I don't know why. Well, boom. There it is. YouTube subscribe. If you want, if you, uh, you know,
[02:28:46] good way to support really good. Also, to switch up your work, get some kettlebells, get some
[02:28:53] battle ropes, get a jumper open. If you don't have one, get some, I just got some battle ropes.
[02:28:59] Vitting come in. Yeah. You said, I think it's good for my workout. I got planned. Oh, and I got
[02:29:04] some rings. Boom. Oh, you think I already had rings. How much you talk about? I did not know you did not
[02:29:08] have rings. Did not have rings. This is a point. I had pull a bar, you know, that kind of, but I don't
[02:29:13] have rings. I have rings now. I didn't come in yet. But anyway, you go to on it dot com slash
[02:29:19] job. Good stuff on. Oh, sorry. Slash. Jockel. Not Joc. On it dot com slash jockel. They got some good
[02:29:24] workout stuff on there. A lot of good info, too. That's where I went when I was when I started
[02:29:28] in the kettlebell routine. Mm-hmm. Got the info from there. Ball. Good stuff. Get some socks, too.
[02:29:34] That's when psychological warfare album. You can get it album with tracks, bubble, bubble,
[02:29:39] ball. No, where's the deal? What's the deal? What's the deal? What's the deal? What's the deal?
[02:29:41] Okay, if you don't know what that is. If you don't know what that is, if you don't know what that is,
[02:29:43] I tuned. Go to Google Play. Go to MP3. You can get an album with me talking about why you shouldn't
[02:29:47] be weak for the various reasons. That's it. It's all we're saying about it. Other than to say,
[02:29:51] we are working on the new psychological warfare album. However, each time I say that, I should,
[02:29:58] I should caveat that by saying I have had a lot of other things to do. So I am. The work I have
[02:30:04] done so far on the new psychological warfare album is to begin to consider topics for the next album.
[02:30:12] I have a small list. It will be rolled out. What do you think will be rolled out? Oh, when?
[02:30:18] Oh, yeah, people are smoking. But it's that really. Yeah. First, like what someone's out there,
[02:30:21] that wants to quit smoking. Yeah, okay. All right. So we're on that. We'll put it out there.
[02:30:25] The new psychological warfare. We do have a working title, which seems to be sticking pretty well.
[02:30:30] All your excuses are lies. Psychological warfare, too. That's the one. Hopefully,
[02:30:35] be better than jaws, too. But not terminated, too. But not terminated, too. I'm just saying terminated, too.
[02:30:41] It was, it was just as iconic as terminated one. We're good. Then,
[02:30:46] jocquawaiti, you can get it on Amazon. You can get the dry tea bags and mix it yourself or you can get it into
[02:30:52] can. And if you get it, no big deal, you can deadlift 8,000 pounds.
[02:30:57] Way the warrior kid books. Dave, you've read them. I've read them multiple times. They are on reread in the house.
[02:31:04] You got three kids ages nine seven four and their feedback is feedback is solid. The girls love the books.
[02:31:16] Interesting. People ask me, what about girls? Are you going to write a book for girls? I did write a book for
[02:31:20] the guys that's called Way the Warrior Kid. Yep. A great thing. Absolutely. My
[02:31:24] lessons are universal. Kids love it. My girls love it. Girls start to train in jiu-jitsu because of the
[02:31:28] book. That's awesome. Yep. Do they study? Oh yeah, they study. Do they eat a little bit more healthy?
[02:31:36] Look, they're on the path. They're on the path. They're on the path. It's legit. That's awesome.
[02:31:42] And I actually talked to your kids occasionally and I see that they are in the fact on the path.
[02:31:49] What about the field manual? They have not read the field, you'll manual. I have read the field manual.
[02:31:54] Feedback. Feedback is also legit. It is a prescription. If you need some help on getting and
[02:32:03] staying on the path, read the field manual. Have you read three pages of the field manual just
[02:32:10] because? Three pages? Have you ever just been like, you know you're sitting there and it's on your
[02:32:14] desk and you're like, you know what? I'm going to read this real quick. Yeah. So the thing about the book
[02:32:18] is the cover of the book. That cover says open this book. It covers awesome. That hard cover is legit,
[02:32:27] man. They ask me like, why don't you like to roll this off cover? I'm like, uh, never. No,
[02:32:32] that is not a soft cover book. No, it is not. No, there's an iconic picture they say.
[02:32:37] Echo says there's an iconic picture. He said a photographer that took the picture had a incredible
[02:32:43] day that day. Sense for art. Okay. And say that for the soft cover? None of them. Oh, yes.
[02:32:51] Okay. What the picture looks like there's no soft cover. No, there's no soft cover. Well,
[02:32:55] it is actually when I said it's an iconic picture. It means less of the notion or the idea that
[02:33:01] I took a great picture or nothing. Like this. I'm saying that picture that we took in my hallway.
[02:33:07] One random night. My cheap camera became a picture that's kind of representative iconic.
[02:33:13] If you will. Okay. So he's claiming it of, you know, your whole. He's trying to downplay it. It could
[02:33:19] be called iconic. I think that I took. No, I'm not. No big deal. Well, you look at where the
[02:33:25] word kid, the picture on the back of the one I took down too. But is that iconic? Not it did push me
[02:33:32] in that direction necessarily, but the one on the cover of this movie was for you. Field. Oh, yeah.
[02:33:36] And you'll is the publisher wanted a picture of me when I looked more approachable. The one on the back.
[02:33:44] The one on the back cover. Yeah. The word shirt line. And there's something about the word your
[02:33:48] kid books that you didn't mention though. You said you wrote a kids book that's for boys and girls.
[02:33:52] That's actually a book for adults. Do. Yeah. Now that's not just not just for the adults.
[02:33:58] There are lessons for the adults, but that book is a great parenting group. That's a legit parenting
[02:34:03] tool that I now get to go. Is that what Mark would do? What would Uncle Jake say here? And I actually
[02:34:10] get to parent less now. Because I just reference the book. That's that's no joke, man. I know that
[02:34:15] word. Ultimate flank. It is. It really is. It's also a flank because the here's the problem.
[02:34:20] Kids do not listen to their parents. Kids listen to a certain percentage of what their parents say.
[02:34:26] And there's a certain portion of them that is programmed to rebel against you as a parent.
[02:34:32] They're programmed that way. And the more you fight it, the worse it's going to get. You come in
[02:34:36] from the flank. Boom. There you go. Yeah. That's true. Good point. What about Dave? This is your big
[02:34:43] night. What about extreme ownership? Feedback. Feedback. I have read that book several times. I've
[02:34:51] listened to it. I reference the book constantly because of the work that we do. And I get a lot of
[02:34:58] feedback on that book. That is the book that when you talk about when you see it broadly,
[02:35:06] that quote from Masashi, you start to see it everywhere. That's what that book is. Yeah.
[02:35:10] Because once you tip on that and once that gets embedded in your DNA, once you start doing that,
[02:35:17] you will see that everywhere. And that is what's unique about that book. Yes. The best feedback
[02:35:24] I've ever gotten on that book from people we were going to say, it just makes sense. Yeah.
[02:35:32] We have a follow on to that book coming out. It's called the dichotomy leadership. It's about
[02:35:37] all those opposing forces you face as leader. And I talked about the ultimate dichotomy tonight.
[02:35:43] And so that book comes out September 25th. Also, if you need live training, you need a little
[02:35:51] bit more than the book. You need a little bit more than the podcast. You can bring us inside your
[02:35:58] organization. We have a company called National Front. That's what Dave was talking about tonight.
[02:36:02] I was talking about tonight. All the companies that we work with. That's what we're talking about.
[02:36:05] We solve problems through leadership. Boom. Me, Lave, JP, Dave Burke, Flynn,
[02:36:13] Cochrane. And now we also have Mike Surelli in the House. All right. What about the
[02:36:19] monster? Mustard six coming up San Francisco. This will be my fifth monster.
[02:36:25] Oh, yeah. Sorry. You missed the first one. I did. I did not make the first
[02:36:28] monster. But this monster, like every other monster, is a going to be awesome. And b, it's going to sell
[02:36:34] out. Yeah. Actually, it's going to sell out. It's almost there. Yeah. Yeah. I talked to Jimmy just the other
[02:36:40] day about it. We are tracking way ahead of where we expected. Yeah. I'm going to sell out soon. You got to get on it.
[02:36:44] Now, because of the monster, we actually designed something else because we wanted to do something.
[02:36:51] First of all, the monsters got a pretty high price point. It's pretty expensive. And it focuses
[02:36:56] on real broad leadership across the board. But we have had come to all the monsters.
[02:37:05] Law enforcement, military, border patrol, fire fighters, paramedics, other first responders.
[02:37:10] We wanted to do something a little bit, a little bit focused on what they do for a living. So we have
[02:37:17] something called the role call. It is September 21st in Dallas, Texas. It's one day leadership
[02:37:25] seminar for everyone out there in uniform. So if you're a police officer, if you're a firefighter,
[02:37:33] and we've worked with police officers and firefighters and we've worked with border patrol,
[02:37:38] and we've worked with military units and we still do all of that. But if you want to come and get a
[02:37:43] one day immersion into the combat leadership principles that we talk about in the book,
[02:37:51] extreme ownership that we talk about on this podcast, come to the role call, September 21st in Dallas,
[02:37:59] Texas. And for both the monster and the role call, you can register for those at extreme ownership.com.
[02:38:08] On top of all of that, we have something now called echelon front Overwatch. EF Overwatch.com.
[02:38:18] And Dave, you've been involved pretty heavily in us standing that up. We are, we in our business,
[02:38:25] working with companies, we are always running into companies that need, what do they need?
[02:38:31] They need good leaders. They need good people. And because of our connections to the military,
[02:38:37] all of us having spent extended periods of time in the military and special operation as combat
[02:38:43] pilots, we have connections there. And this is a place where we have an opportunity to bring
[02:38:50] those two things together. People that want great leaders and people that are great leaders that need
[02:38:56] jobs. So we're bringing those together. Whether you're somebody who wants to employ people or
[02:39:01] whether you're looking to be employed as a spec ops individual or a combat pilot,
[02:39:11] then go to EF Overwatch.com, put your information in there. And we will proceed down the line of
[02:39:17] getting you the best people you get. And I miss anything on EF Overwatch. Yeah, it's like you said
[02:39:23] and the best thing for the transitioning folks. If you're looking for a new mission to find your
[02:39:29] next mission, you have to transition out of the service. This is the place to do it. Coming get some.
[02:39:35] And if you want to kind of keep carrying on this conversation with us virtually,
[02:39:41] that isn't until we see you live either at the master or at the roll call or at the immersion
[02:39:49] camp up in Maine, then you can find us all on the interwebs on Twitter, on Instagram, and on Dash
[02:39:57] Facebook. Dave is at David R. Burke. Be. E. R. K. E. Because that's a thing. I mean, you always forget
[02:40:10] your own thing. You're like Dave R. Burke. Yeah. David R. Burke. Correct. Yeah. That's where you are. And
[02:40:19] you're there. You're there on Twitter and on Instagram. Yep. And on that Facebook. He's
[02:40:24] like a lot of echoers. Of course, echo Charles and I am at Jockel. Like echo. Anything else?
[02:40:31] No, good to see you again, Dave Burke. Actually, you talk about him always texting you about
[02:40:36] your Jits and stuff. He calls me to think. Yeah. Yeah. It's great. Yeah. That's how it is, man.
[02:40:41] One of those things we see is they when you're phone, you can't get happy. Yeah. Just for, you know,
[02:40:45] you get happy and you like man was arm lock question. Escape at the mild question.
[02:40:50] No. That's tough. Good deal. Dave. Great to see you. Good deal. Dave Burke. Any closing comments?
[02:40:55] Dude, thanks for having me back, man. I could do this all day. I appreciate the chance to talk again.
[02:41:00] Being a part of this is a big deal for me. Thank you. David. Awesome to have you on.
[02:41:06] And again, thanks for everything that you've done for me and done for our freedom as a nation.
[02:41:14] And I'm sure we will do this many times again in the future. So yeah, this is just the beginning.
[02:41:21] My brother right on. And everyone else in the military, that is out there right now,
[02:41:26] protecting our freedom. Thank you. And to the first responders, police law enforcement,
[02:41:31] board of patrol, firefighters, paramedics, thanks for keeping us and our families safe and to
[02:41:38] everyone else. That is listening. Thank you. Thank you for listening. Thank you for supporting.
[02:41:48] And thanks for remembering the heroes that gave their lives so that liberty and democracy
[02:41:58] can survive and let the names of the fallen forever.
[02:42:05] Forever be as unparishable as those glorious ideals for which they made the ultimate sacrifice.
[02:42:18] And until next time, this is Dave and Echo and Jockel. Out.