Jocko Podcast 126 w Col. Tom Fife. Leadership From WW2, Korea, and Vietnam

2018-05-25T18:24:27Z

Join the conversation on Twitter/Instagram: @jockowillink @daverberke @echocharles 0:00:00 - Opening 0:08:02 - Col. Thomas Fife. WW2, Korea, and Vietnam. 2:02:12 - Final Thoughts and take-aways. 2:07:12 - Support. 2:36:28 - Closing Gratitude.

AI summary of episode

So people complain about, you know, especially from a leadership perspective, people talk to me about, well, you know, I've got my company and we've got these new, these kids checking in their millennials. And that's what makes people like you said, when you've got to have somebody that's going to go out and fix track under fire, well, that's somebody that's not going to do that just because you order to do it. You know, hiring people or working with people, you know, in civilian sector, you hire people. You know what's awesome is to know to literally know the people. I talk about, as a leader being able to identify what I would call, it's, I just called the void of leadership and it's very easy to see when you are used to seeing leadership, you know, you know, having a deep feeling of feeling the void when you see a void of leadership, if you're aware to look for it, it's really easy to see when it's there and you go wait a second someone needs to step in here and take charge. And then when what, once you guys held the line and you know, it's funny because I used that expression a lot, just talking about, you know, holding your line with your personal discipline and holding the line with your, your subordinates and we use it metaphorically and it's incredible to see here and talk to you about actually literally holding the line. But it was like, I think like your wall or something like that where it's like your just your own stuff. Yes, the point you made about, you know, not just that your, your Sergeant was smart enough to teach you, but equally important is that you were smart enough to listen and we're getting, all kinds of young officers and I'm sure you saw them through the years that they're not smart enough to listen to the people that have the experience and that's a huge lesson learned that seems to always need to get learned by people. Or did you guys have an attitude kind of like, well, you know, we're going to go and be peace-time Army officers for the next, however many years? I feel like we should do the milk now, because you've got kind of kind of brought it up, which is, you know, if for lack of a better term, it's actually, it is a better term. Well, if you know echo you know me and that means you know they're Burke. But, I mean, people who used to tell me, well, you know how to do things because you can order with people to do things. So you've got to, you've got to communicate in the only way you can communicate if the radio isn't working, you've got to get your butt off the, off the tank and down there so you can talk to these guys. Things like fires, things like combat, things like high speed pursuit, chases. The enemy was retreating pretty fast and we were just going as fast as we could drive enough to roads and, uh, in fact, uh, our unit got almost the yellow river, uh, which is about the time to decide to take the, take the stuff out of my butt. But because he was a guy who didn't treat people like people like to be treated. And then you had a bunch of, you know, you were saying that your sergeant, they felt they were lucky to have someone that had been in combat, that had been in combat before, and then all of a sudden I know that they were looking to you saying, okay, well, what do we do now, boss? You know how like now it's like everyone's stuff that you're just, basically how it is now. Because I know part of the Korean War was like they dug in and it was almost like trench warfare. Obviously, you at least experienced some pretty intense stuff, and you know, you hear a lot of times, especially nowadays with guys coming home from Iraq and Afghanistan, with guys struggling to re-adapt to life back in America. And I think that's the best thing for veterans, you know, if you're still in, I think the veterans that have the hardest time are veterans that get out, and all of the sudden, the brotherhood that they are used to is gone, and the mission that they're used to is gone. Had you enjoyed your time in Europe and you said, you know what I think I'm going to do. What did you see and, and how did you see what was going on that got you to get out of that tank and tell you that you needed to get out of that vehicle and start directing was going on in the ground. I mean, you guys, I don't know what it would be like to be in the service today. He got busted for, I don't know what reason, but he got busted back to me, being a private. And you had drafties, not just drafties that got drafted and okay, I'm going to go do my duty, but drafties that got drafted that literally did not believe in what was happening and barely even believed in America as a country. But, this one is one of those good ones where kind of like you in the discipline where you're like pounding at all the time. When you were from a leadership perspective dealing with losing guys in comparison to when you were in World War II, and you weren't necessarily in command of guys, but you're seeing people get wounded, you're seeing people get killed. I don't know if there's a some kind of a, you know, limitation health wise. I can tell you they could find us, you know, often remember somebody at a long time in my career tell me something about reconnaissance by fire. When you got home from Vietnam, you know, you talked about coming home from Korea and everyone's in uniform. So my first day in Korea combat, one tank destroyed, five people at that time were tank head crew of five, were all far more killed than the tank commander was back in the United States and less than two weeks after we left, over three weeks after we left. And I don't know if you know, he's the one in the movie about general patents.

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Episode transcript

[00:00:00] This is Jocco podcast number 126 with echo Charles and me, Jocco Willink. Good evening, Echo. Good evening, and tonight also joining us is Mr. David Burke. Good evening, Dave. Good evening.
[00:00:15] On September 27, 1950, approximately 60 American prisoners who had been confined in prison were taken into the prison yard in groups of 14 with their hands wired together.
[00:00:31] These men were forced to sit hunched and hastily dubbed ditches and then were shot by North Korean troops at point blank range with American M1 rifles using armor piercing ammunition.
[00:00:49] Two seriously wounded survivors only one lived to recount the gruesome details. Unnumbered civilians estimated at between 5,000 and 7,000 as well as soldiers of the Republic of Korea were also slaughtered between September 23rd and September 27th, 1950.
[00:01:14] The first sergeant, Carrie H. Y. Now, formally with the 23rd Infantry Regiment 2nd Division, Korea was the sole survivor of the infamous Tejon massacre.
[00:01:30] He testified at a congressional hearing and I'm going to read some of that transcript. Here's Sergeant Y. Nell.
[00:01:41] The last, they was in a hurry to leave Tejon to evacuate Tejon, so they took approximately the last three groups pretty close together. I witnessed the group right in front of me shot.
[00:01:59] And then, then, send her Potter asks, what happened to you when you were shot? Sergeant Y. Nell replies,
[00:02:11] I leaned over against the next man pretending I was done for. In firing, they hit my hand.
[00:02:19] Send her Potter. How were you? Sitting in the ditch? Sergeant Y. Nell. They was aiming at my head. I have a scar on my neck, one on my collarbone, and another in my hand. They hit me three times.
[00:02:33] And you played dead? Yes, sir. After they thought everyone was dead, they started burying us. I came pretty close to getting panicky about that time, but somehow or another, I figured as long as I had some breath.
[00:02:48] There was hope. In other words, you were buried alive. That is right, sir. I might add in that whole group that I was with.
[00:03:02] There was not a man that begged for mercy, and there was not a man that cracked under the ordeal.
[00:03:11] Sergeant, how long were you buried alive? That is hard to say, sir. As I say, I was shot around five o'clock in the morning, and I stayed in the ditch until that evening, until what time it was dark.
[00:03:25] I would say approximately eight hours, seven or eight hours.
[00:03:34] Now, that is from a report on Korean war atrocities written by the subcommittee on Korean war investigations. And I want to repeat one line again from Sergeant Y. Nell.
[00:03:50] He says, in that whole group that I was with, there was not a man that begged for mercy, and there was not a man that cracked under the ordeal.
[00:04:05] So think about that.
[00:04:09] Think about the will and the discipline of those men to be facing certain death that the hands of a murderous enemy, but to face death with solemn silence and show no signs of breaking.
[00:04:30] Said before that war brings out the worst in people, but it also brings out the best.
[00:04:39] And that is but one of thousands upon thousands of examples of the dedication of our military fighting men.
[00:04:50] And I'm going to read you another example from the same war around the same time, but this one is an award citation.
[00:05:02] And it reads, the president of the United States of America takes pleasure in presenting the silver star to first lieutenant armor Thomas Wilford five United States Army for gallantry in action as a member of company B 72nd tank battalion.
[00:05:18] Second infantry division in action against an armed enemy on 19 September 1950 in the vicinity of young sang Korea.
[00:05:28] On that date lieutenant five was in command of a platoon of tanks charged with the support of infantry elements in the defense of young sang perimeter.
[00:05:37] And a tactic position with superior numbers and a fanatic determination to penetrate through to the division main supply route.
[00:05:49] The enemy attack was successful in routing the friendly elements and inflicting casualties to the extent that the organization and combat effectiveness of the positions was completely disrupted.
[00:06:02] The previous mission of the situation lieutenant five disregarded the heavy enemy fire and dismounted from the protective armor of his tank to reorganize the foot elements.
[00:06:15] After reorganization, he remained on the ground and successfully reestablished the positions by controlling both the foot elements and his tanks by means of radio communications.
[00:06:28] The same date while engaged in a friendly attack against the enemy lieutenant five again displayed gallantry by refusing evacuation after being wounded.
[00:06:39] The leadership loyalty and gallant actions demonstrated that day by lieutenant five aren't keeping with the highest traditions of the military service.
[00:06:53] So lieutenant five was under attack from devastating enemy fire, but he did not remain in the protection of his tank.
[00:07:02] In fact, he did the opposite. He exited his tank to organize troops and stop the enemy attack. He risked his life to lead his men.
[00:07:11] Then he would continue to lead even after wounded. Now, Korea was not the first war for lieutenant five nor would it be his last.
[00:07:25] Lieutenant five had actually already fought in World War II. He fought in Korea and he fought in Vietnam.
[00:07:36] He also received three purple hearts for each of the three times he was wounded once in each war.
[00:07:43] And in addition to the silver star from Korea, he also received another silver star for his service in Vietnam and a Legion of Merit and a distinguished fine cross.
[00:07:54] And survived all that, and served our great nation for 25 years.
[00:08:02] And I will say that it is my absolute honor to have retired Colonel Thomas Fife on the podcast today.
[00:08:14] Sir, thank you for coming on.
[00:08:19] It's nice to be here, I think.
[00:08:23] I've listened to that story. It brought back years. Quite frankly, I'm upset just because of the memory of that.
[00:08:38] It was a horrible experience, but when it had to get done, I still remember getting how that tank.
[00:08:49] I wonder in one day, I was doing it. But something had to be done.
[00:08:56] When you see thousands of people coming at you, you have nothing but your weapons.
[00:09:06] You and the guys needed some help. They were willing to.
[00:09:16] I guess run, I don't know what they were. They needed leadership.
[00:09:22] And that's all I think I could think of to get out and try to be there with them.
[00:09:28] And I think God would turn them around and we were able to stop the enemy.
[00:09:35] You can't understand what it's like to be there and having thousands of people come rushing at you.
[00:09:44] And the best you can do is shoot your tank guns and you machine guns.
[00:09:48] And they just kept coming. They just kept coming.
[00:09:52] I mean, talk about discipline. Those guys were discipline too.
[00:09:56] And we had to get our guys together and we did.
[00:10:01] And it was, I think I was lucky. I was damn lucky.
[00:10:07] By the way, my wounds weren't that serious. I got shot and he asked.
[00:10:12] And it closed up. The wound closed up.
[00:10:17] And so it stopped bleeding.
[00:10:19] And for all practical purposes, I was as good as good as new for a while.
[00:10:26] So I mean, it wasn't that serious a wound.
[00:10:30] I mean, I, I, I would hope to be evacuated to Japan, but didn't work.
[00:10:37] So you're million dollar wound turned out to be like a 50 cent wound.
[00:10:42] At least it was, it was, you know, when you, when I got wounded, I felt the blood rush into my pants.
[00:10:56] And then it stopped. So why not keep going?
[00:11:01] So, as I was concerned, the wound was dead over.
[00:11:07] And when I finally got to the mass hospital, the doctor said,
[00:11:10] That's what we can do for you. It's going to work its way out or stay there forever.
[00:11:16] It eventually worked its way out, which is how I ended up being evacuated
[00:11:23] when we were up in North Korea. And got to a hospital ship,
[00:11:28] and they, they took the piece of metal out of my butt.
[00:11:36] And then my carthor just said, General McArthur said,
[00:11:43] We're going to be home by thanks by Christmas.
[00:11:46] So my objective was to get off that hospital ship as fast as I could and get back to my units.
[00:11:51] And of course the Chinese hit. And so I was now trying to get back to my unit.
[00:12:03] And the Army was totally screwed up, but you didn't know where who was where.
[00:12:09] So I ended up finding to be on Yang,
[00:12:14] and the land in Yang, the capital in North Korea, and the airfield was totally surrounded by fire.
[00:12:23] We were destroying all of our equipment and whatever else.
[00:12:29] We landed there playing the plane landed, and I had to go find my unit.
[00:12:38] And nobody knew where it was. So I got on the road and started hitchhiking.
[00:12:46] Yeah, the guy came along, happened to be a classmate of mine who was in the middle of the corps.
[00:12:53] He stopped saw me, picked me up, took me back to where he was, which was core headquarters.
[00:12:59] And they didn't know where and how my outfit was.
[00:13:03] So finally they took me back to the mass hospital, another mass hospital.
[00:13:08] And the mass hospital I'm nowhere my unit was.
[00:13:12] And they took me back to my unit in an ambulance.
[00:13:16] Now I wasn't wounded, there was just a way to convey it, get me back to my unit.
[00:13:22] I still remember those days. Terrible experience, but fun.
[00:13:30] It's hard for people to understand that I have that discussion with people a lot when you're saying, hey, this is the worst time of my life.
[00:13:39] And also the best time of my life at the same time.
[00:13:43] Let's get into Korea, but let's talk a little bit about where you came from, how you grew up.
[00:13:52] Starting with, I guess, Su-Sidi Iowa.
[00:13:55] That's right. Well, I was a kid growing up in the middle of the United States.
[00:14:10] I was reminded, on the way over here, I was talking when Pearl Harbor happened.
[00:14:20] I was 16 years old, I was in a movie theater.
[00:14:24] And they stopped the movie and they announced that Japanese just bought Pearl Harbor.
[00:14:31] I didn't know where Pearl Harbor was.
[00:14:35] And I knew where the Hawaiian Islands were, but I didn't know Pearl Harbor was in the Hawaiian Islands.
[00:14:42] Well, you're in Iowa. There's no oceans.
[00:14:45] Nobody knows. Nobody.
[00:14:47] We don't think about oceans. And so here we were in this movie.
[00:14:55] I was almost 16 as I said. And I said, well, hell, the world before I ever get called in.
[00:15:02] Well, that turned out to be wrong.
[00:15:05] So as I said, I was going through high school.
[00:15:12] I told objective, well, I was in high school. It's going to become a chemical engineer.
[00:15:17] You can go to Cornell University. Why?
[00:15:21] Because my best friends, oldest brother-in-law, was a chemical engineer working in Sumatra.
[00:15:33] Well, you grow up in Iowa. Sumatra is sound like a pretty good thing to be doing.
[00:15:39] So, that's why I wanted to be a chemical engineer.
[00:15:42] And I was going to go to Cornell because he wanted to Cornell.
[00:15:45] And that was going to be what I was going to do.
[00:15:49] Well, the war happened.
[00:15:53] And I suddenly became a team and you get drafted.
[00:15:58] It's hard for people to realize today.
[00:16:02] Every place you go, people are in uniform.
[00:16:06] When people are walking around in sub-inclos, the only people who weren't sub-inclos
[00:16:12] are those who couldn't qualify because of physical disabilities.
[00:16:18] So everybody was in uniform, no matter where you were.
[00:16:22] So I got drafted.
[00:16:25] And fortunately, my dad was smart enough to send me off to Iowa State before I was 18.
[00:16:34] And I got two quarters in as an engineer.
[00:16:38] So the Army in this great wisdom decided to make the incumbent engineer.
[00:16:44] Which I've been in being an infant to be in as far as I was concerned.
[00:16:48] So I went to Fort Jackson, South Carolina.
[00:16:54] Now, when you're from Sumatra, Columbia, South Carolina is it.
[00:17:01] He's on some way.
[00:17:05] He took us five days on a damn train to get there.
[00:17:09] So we got there in all of us soldiers could have to train.
[00:17:15] And the first person got us all lined up there.
[00:17:20] And he's calling and roll.
[00:17:24] And he says, fee fee.
[00:17:27] And I yell five. From that moment on, I was fee fee.
[00:17:32] So anyway, that was in March of 1944.
[00:17:47] And so we went through basic train.
[00:17:51] It learned to be a incumbent engineer.
[00:17:54] And I became a demolition specialist.
[00:17:59] It's hard for people to realize, here's the kid who grows up in Suci's Iowa.
[00:18:06] And suddenly it's handing explosives.
[00:18:10] I had no more idea of doing that in the man in the moon.
[00:18:14] So in the training, we were primarily learning to build bridges and take care of roads.
[00:18:25] That was our primary mission.
[00:18:29] But we also were taught to be infantrymen.
[00:18:33] Common engineers had a secondary responsibility.
[00:18:38] And so we ended up, fortunately, going to Europe,
[00:18:48] when we were in training, we had no idea what direction we were going to go.
[00:18:53] But in retrospect, I've always felt that we were lucky to go to Europe,
[00:19:00] rather than into the southeast.
[00:19:03] However, when I got to Europe, it was colder and hell.
[00:19:10] I wasn't sure that was a really great decision.
[00:19:14] It worked out all right.
[00:19:16] But our primary role was to go to Europe and become a take care of the roads and all the things that engineers do.
[00:19:28] And so you showed up there, is it were you right around the battle of both time frame?
[00:19:33] Yes.
[00:19:35] I mean, the battle of the roads was, I remember, right around Christmas time of 1944.
[00:19:46] And we got to the continent at that time.
[00:19:53] But our unit went to Luxembourg.
[00:19:59] It primarily was helping General Patton's army,
[00:20:06] to make a 90 degree turn and go north to help stop the Germans.
[00:20:14] And so the roads had to be taken care of.
[00:20:19] And that's what our unit was doing.
[00:20:22] So during the actual combat at the best home, we were working on roads and keeping the roads open for the Patton's army to get up there.
[00:20:37] Our unit eventually eliminated the last Germans from Luxembourg.
[00:20:50] And a little town called Vyandon, which is on the hour river, right across from the Seek Free border, a Seek Free line.
[00:20:58] And so the 1250-15th Engineer Combat Battalion turned in an infantry outfit for brief, very time.
[00:21:09] February 12th, 1945, we got rid of all the Germans, last Germans in the country of Luxembourg.
[00:21:19] The combat engineers, I always want to give them their due, because they continued to keep roads open.
[00:21:29] When we were fighting, in Ramadi it was the combat engineers primarily that they had the duty of mine clearance.
[00:21:35] And it was a brutal and I mean obviously a highly dangerous job for them to be out there, clear in those mines and keep in those roads open.
[00:21:42] That's a hell of a job.
[00:21:47] I guess a demolition specialist, one of my other, one of my jows was mine clearance.
[00:21:54] And I was operating a mine sweeper on this road down into the valley at Vyandon, and behind me were the two tanks from the Calvary unit.
[00:22:11] And Germans could see the tanks. I guess they could see us too, but they sure had held it.
[00:22:18] Looking at the tanks and shooting out the tanks. And a lot of their machine gun fire would ricochet off the tanks.
[00:22:28] And that's how I got hit with ricochet off the dam tank.
[00:22:34] Got into my leg and arm. But superficially. I mean, all I just go back to the aid station and get managed up and back to my unit.
[00:22:45] Wasn't any hospitalization at all that kind of stuff.
[00:22:49] Another 50 cent wound for you.
[00:22:51] Exactly. I mean, I had a lot of those.
[00:22:55] So how long were you, so did you stay over in Europe until the war ended?
[00:23:00] No, actually in March, the unit got orders from me to return to the United States because I had appointments to the United States military.
[00:23:13] Okay.
[00:23:14] And so my very first airplane ride was from Leace, Belgium, to Paris.
[00:23:21] And I was, I remember going into this office in Paris, and I was dressed in my battle gear, so to speak.
[00:23:31] And they looked at me and they said, and I had it still everywhere.
[00:23:35] I was still wearing my steel helmet. And I can still remember this sergeant scene.
[00:23:42] We got to take her this guy. We got to dress him up.
[00:23:46] And so they put me in all brand new clothes. Two days later, I was on a airplane flying back to United States.
[00:23:56] Twenty seven hours later, and five stops in route.
[00:24:02] We ended up in Washington, D.C.
[00:24:05] So I ended up, my first time at Everett's visit to Pentagon.
[00:24:15] Here is this 19 year old PFC dressed in brand new clothes walking into the Pentagon.
[00:24:26] And I can tell you, I wasn't sure what they were always doing.
[00:24:32] So I got orders to go to Cornell University. Cornell University, but for to get reacademic reacademic.
[00:24:46] So you had orders to West Point, but they were going to send you to Cornell for a little while to prepare for it?
[00:24:52] Well, no, I had an appointment to the academy.
[00:24:58] Okay. And if you had an appointment, the academy in fact, this is still to the day.
[00:25:04] If you're having an appointment with the academy, take you out of combat and bring you back some place safe.
[00:25:12] And what they brought us back, there was about 300 of us at Cornell all from different parts of the service.
[00:25:24] So we armed the air force, there was fact downstairs of the US Army Air Corps.
[00:25:30] And we were there for them to get reacademic.
[00:25:39] Turn your brain back on.
[00:25:41] Yeah. Thank you.
[00:25:44] So that was.
[00:25:45] At this point, did you know you wanted to stay in the Army as a career?
[00:25:50] Had you enjoyed your time in Europe and you said, you know what I think I'm going to do.
[00:25:54] Think of it as a distance or no.
[00:25:56] I had no idea.
[00:26:00] It wasn't until after.
[00:26:02] Well, very quickly.
[00:26:09] My appointment to the academy was an alternate appointment.
[00:26:14] And as the principal, if he qualifies, he often doesn't get to go in my principal qualifies.
[00:26:22] So, now what do they do with me?
[00:26:26] The Army is great infinite.
[00:26:28] It was the decided to send me to our security school.
[00:26:31] So they sent me down to Fort Bell, Ward of the Engineer of Security School.
[00:26:37] The Army knew they were going to need a lot of technical tennis or in the southeast Asia.
[00:26:43] So anyway, in the middle of the officer Kennedy School, the Ward of Japan ended.
[00:26:51] Now what?
[00:26:53] Well, they stopped the officer Kennedy's wrist.
[00:26:57] Slow it down, I guess, as the right word.
[00:26:59] And what I continued on in graduated in the January of 1945.
[00:27:06] And here I was now a settle tennis.
[00:27:09] So you got your commission?
[00:27:10] Yeah. And I had a principal appointment to the military academy.
[00:27:16] So what are they doing?
[00:27:18] So they kept me at Fort Bell Ward training recruits.
[00:27:22] And then in July, they discharged me from the Army.
[00:27:28] The military academy is a good hit.
[00:27:31] And July 1st, 1946.
[00:27:35] It was somewhere in there that I started to like the Army.
[00:27:43] I got it.
[00:27:45] But I knew if I wanted to be an engineer, I'd damn well had to get a college education.
[00:27:51] Well, we're better to go than to.
[00:27:54] The place that's most attractive to be an Army engineer, which is this case West Point.
[00:28:00] So I went on to West Point and spent four years there, obviously.
[00:28:06] And graduated in 1950.
[00:28:09] So you got commissioned?
[00:28:11] They took your commission away for four years.
[00:28:14] And then they gave it back to you at the end of 40 years.
[00:28:16] Yes.
[00:28:17] The only rank I've ever had was an Army with twice, but second lieutenant.
[00:28:21] Yes, that's right.
[00:28:24] And West Point at this point is being run by just all World War II veterans.
[00:28:30] I'm sure.
[00:28:31] Yes.
[00:28:32] In fact, our tactical officers were all lieutenant colonels who had been
[00:28:44] a commander of some sort in World War II in Europe or in their force, in fact, tactical officer of my company.
[00:28:56] The first two years was an artilleryman.
[00:28:59] And the second two years was an Air Force.
[00:29:04] Well, it was US Army Air Corps became the Air Force Lieutenant Colonel.
[00:29:10] So, and then the superintendent was Maxwell Taylor.
[00:29:15] And the commander was guy named Paul D. Hartman, who was Colonel Hartman.
[00:29:21] He was General Patton's hatchet man.
[00:29:26] And the deputy commander was a guy named John K. Waters, who was General Patton's son-in-law.
[00:29:36] So, they were all World War II veterans.
[00:29:44] And as we're at the time of that, had to be.
[00:29:47] Was that fairly unique?
[00:29:48] Was there a lot of other guys that were prior and listed that were coming to West Point?
[00:29:53] I'm of my class who started about 1100 of us.
[00:30:03] I would guess several hundred were veterans of some sort.
[00:30:09] Navy, Army, Army Air Corps, yes.
[00:30:18] I would say about 200 to 300.
[00:30:23] I don't remember exactly.
[00:30:24] Now, when you're going through West Point, the war ends.
[00:30:28] Are you, is war on the horizon for you?
[00:30:31] Or did you guys have an attitude kind of like, well, you know, we're going to go and be peace-time Army officers for the next, however many years?
[00:30:41] Or did you see trouble brewing?
[00:30:44] No, no trouble brewing.
[00:30:46] I mean, I don't think anybody really for self-what was going to happen to Korea.
[00:30:53] In fact, the only thing that was trouble, if you would was Berlin Air Lift was happened while we were at Cadets.
[00:31:06] And so we saw that kind of thing, but I guess maybe in our naivety, we figured that nobody was going to be there.
[00:31:15] Nobody was going to pull the plug and really have the Russians attack or vice-presimal.
[00:31:21] We're going to do anything.
[00:31:23] So when you graduate, what's your next move?
[00:31:27] What was your next move after you graduated?
[00:31:31] Well, it wasn't my move.
[00:31:33] North Korea invaded South Korea and here General President, President Truman decided to send US troops to
[00:31:44] Korea.
[00:31:46] Now, one of the things when you graduate by order of rank, you're allowed to choose your branch and then where you want to go.
[00:32:03] Well, my experience was being in front of that tank and getting a scrap rail.
[00:32:13] I decided I didn't want to be out in front of the tank.
[00:32:16] I wanted to be in the tank.
[00:32:18] So I chose not to be an engineer again.
[00:32:22] I chose to go in an armor.
[00:32:25] So I chose to go to once again, run up an Iowa, stay in a washing with somewhere who knows where.
[00:32:38] So I chose Fort Lewis, Washington.
[00:32:40] That's a place I'd want to go visit.
[00:32:43] So that's my first post was to go to Fort Lewis, Washington, to turn out to be the 29th, no, the 72nd tank of time, which was part of the second information.
[00:32:59] President Truman, while I was on my honeymoon in Canada, decided to send the second division off to the country.
[00:33:09] So it was not just a career.
[00:33:11] So in my infinite wisdom, not knowing this had happened.
[00:33:16] Well, I was in Canada and I called home to wish my mother and dad happy for the July.
[00:33:27] Oh, the Army had sent a telegram to my parents house saying, for me,
[00:33:35] to get my ass to Fort Lewis as soon as possible.
[00:33:42] Well, I'm halfway there, up and up in the El Verde Canada.
[00:33:48] So we drive off to Fort Lewis and saw a private Fort Lewis village lie.
[00:33:58] Now, you've got to, I'm now a tank of a two-liter, never been in a tank before.
[00:34:08] Let me tell you, that's an experience, most people don't want to have.
[00:34:14] I said, only thing I had gone, by the way, many years later, what Patuon said,
[00:34:23] that time he was my gunner. He said, we've really fortunate we had a guy who had been in combat in World War II.
[00:34:35] Not knowing that I didn't know a damn thing about a tank.
[00:34:39] But the good news is the Sergeant was smart enough to teach me how to be somewhat of a tanker.
[00:34:48] On the ship, on the way over to Korea.
[00:34:50] So you had no, you showed up, you get done with your, or you cut short your honeymoon.
[00:34:56] You go straight to Fort Lewis and then you immediately load up.
[00:35:01] Yes. My first tanker was from the port, not from the motorpool at Fort Lewis,
[00:35:08] to the port of Olympia, to put the tank on the ship and goodbye.
[00:35:14] That was my first tanker.
[00:35:16] Yes, the point you made about, you know, not just that your, your Sergeant was smart enough to teach you,
[00:35:22] but equally important is that you were smart enough to listen and we're getting,
[00:35:26] all kinds of young officers and I'm sure you saw them through the years that they're not smart enough to listen to the people that have the experience
[00:35:32] and that's a huge lesson learned that seems to always need to get learned by people.
[00:35:38] I wish I told more people when I asked,
[00:35:44] what do you do to be successful? I say listen to your Sergeant's.
[00:35:49] Listen to your Sergeant's.
[00:35:52] Ask them. Don't be afraid to ask because they'll tell you, their job is to make you successful.
[00:35:59] Yeah.
[00:36:00] And unfortunately there are too many people who don't have egos that can allow them to do that.
[00:36:07] No doubt about it.
[00:36:08] Yeah.
[00:36:09] They think it's going to make them look bad when it actually, they actually elevate some of the eyes of the Sergeant.
[00:36:13] Yeah.
[00:36:14] And yeah.
[00:36:15] So your trip overseas, you're on the ship and you show up in Korea.
[00:36:24] Yes.
[00:36:27] You can't understand what it's like to be several miles offshore and begin to smell.
[00:36:38] What's going to be turned out to be the port of Busan.
[00:36:43] You could smell it before you ever got there.
[00:36:46] And we knew we were pulling into, and I've never, I've never been to that far the world in my whole life.
[00:36:53] And we offloaded ourselves from the trip ship.
[00:37:00] What if our tanks to come on the other ships and we spent four days in Busan waiting for the equipment to come.
[00:37:11] And then offloading it and getting ready to go into battle.
[00:37:16] Then at what point, this is like the battle of Busan.
[00:37:23] This is the Busan perimeter.
[00:37:24] Yeah.
[00:37:25] And this is the beginning of it right now.
[00:37:27] For those of you that don't know, this is North Korean troops coming down a hundred thousand North Korean troops coming down and have you guys basically squeezed onto, it's almost a peninsula.
[00:37:37] It's like a little knot of land that sticks out.
[00:37:40] It's 35 miles radius from the city of Busan, was the Busan perimeter.
[00:37:46] That was the last territory held.
[00:37:50] Everything else was held by the North Koreans.
[00:37:53] And so when you landed there, that's the situation they were in.
[00:37:57] Yes.
[00:37:58] And how did you guys, and how did you, and your troops, feel about that?
[00:38:03] I don't think we were even cognizant of how serious it was.
[00:38:14] After we loaded the tanks onto the rail cars,
[00:38:19] you go to the, the rail head of Maryying, which is,
[00:38:24] I don't know the 20 miles, 25 miles from Busan,
[00:38:28] where we are offloaded the tanks.
[00:38:30] It's where I first went into combat in Korea.
[00:38:36] I don't really know that we thought how serious it was.
[00:38:45] It got, got the impression several days later when the division system division commander
[00:38:55] called all the officers and singer NCOs together in a place.
[00:39:01] And he said, men we live are die here.
[00:39:06] And I've thought to myself, what in the hell did I get myself into here?
[00:39:12] But that's, that's what it was.
[00:39:16] I mean, we, you know, in hindsight, I've read books about what happened in Korea.
[00:39:28] And we really didn't understand it.
[00:39:30] I mean, we were just, they're doing a job.
[00:39:33] And I don't think we really understood how perilous a situation was.
[00:39:39] And at any point, while you were there, did you understand the peril of the situation
[00:39:46] or were you just in your particular battles day by day trying to hold the line
[00:39:52] where you were and didn't, was the communications kind of not effective enough
[00:39:57] to really, for you to understand the bigger picture?
[00:39:59] We had no idea what the bigger picture was.
[00:40:02] I mean, honest to God, we were just doing our job.
[00:40:07] And as I said earlier, watching these waves of people come across the Nattoon river
[00:40:17] will never, ever go away from my memory.
[00:40:21] I mean, people were just coming, coming, coming, coming.
[00:40:24] And all we were doing was shooting, shooting, shooting.
[00:40:27] And they were just, keep coming.
[00:40:29] And we managed to hold the line.
[00:40:37] And they didn't penetrate.
[00:40:42] So, no, the answer is, we didn't understand perilous a situation.
[00:40:50] As you were, you hold the line specifically, you guys, you were holding the line on that river.
[00:40:55] Yes.
[00:40:56] Were they swimming?
[00:40:57] Were they taking boats?
[00:40:58] Were they doing?
[00:40:59] They were waiting.
[00:41:00] It wasn't that deep.
[00:41:02] It wasn't that deep.
[00:41:03] It was pretty wide river, but it wasn't that deep.
[00:41:07] So, they were able to weigh the cross.
[00:41:11] Yeah.
[00:41:12] And they would just keep coming.
[00:41:17] And then how long did that particular?
[00:41:21] How long were you under intense waves of attacks like that?
[00:41:25] It was like a 20 days or something of the whole thing I think lasted.
[00:41:30] I don't know, 20 days or something.
[00:41:33] Yeah, exactly.
[00:41:37] I don't know.
[00:41:42] It seemed like forever.
[00:41:45] But I think it was probably over in two or three, a couple of weeks.
[00:41:54] The first involvement, we got off the tank's off the flat car.
[00:42:04] And then we rolled into action and my lead tank, and Fred and my very eyes exploded.
[00:42:19] And it will never forget watching the tank commander go sailing out into the ditch into the right,
[00:42:27] in the tank exploding.
[00:42:31] We arounded a curve and unbeknownst to us.
[00:42:37] There were two Russian tanks, man by the Koreans, up just raw, and they fired at this tank.
[00:42:46] And we had my potential was in force, Sherman tanks, and gas engines.
[00:43:00] And they fired, and since they fired into the gas tank, the whole thing exploded.
[00:43:07] So my first day in Korea combat, one tank destroyed, five people at that time were tank head crew of five,
[00:43:19] were all far more killed than the tank commander was back in the United States and less than two weeks after we left,
[00:43:27] over three weeks after we left.
[00:43:29] And that was my first day in combat in Korea.
[00:43:38] So from then on, we got into the perimeter and spent a couple of weeks there.
[00:43:47] I don't remember.
[00:43:51] You read earlier at my dissertation on September 19th, which was when I was,
[00:43:57] I don't remember what exact date dates it was, because it wasn't too long after that happened,
[00:44:09] that we had in Shonland in everything broke out and we were head and north.
[00:44:17] So there was a couple weeks, I don't know.
[00:44:20] When you were from a leadership perspective dealing with losing guys in comparison to when you were in World War II,
[00:44:29] and you weren't necessarily in command of guys, but you're seeing people get wounded, you're seeing people get killed.
[00:44:34] What was your mindset?
[00:44:37] What was your perspective as a leader when the guys were getting wounded, guys were getting killed?
[00:44:43] And then you had a bunch of, you know, you were saying that your sergeant, they felt they were lucky to have someone that had been in combat,
[00:44:49] that had been in combat before, and then all of a sudden I know that they were looking to you saying,
[00:44:54] okay, well, what do we do now, boss?
[00:44:57] Well, one thing about, in a tank, the crews are inside the tank, and as, with the radio,
[00:45:10] you could direct people to do this and do that.
[00:45:15] And so I just told them what they should be doing, and they did it.
[00:45:22] I mean, I didn't, leadership is just telling people what they should do, and they're trying to do it, and they do it.
[00:45:34] I mean, I learned, actually I learned, I talked to, grown up on high leadership, I didn't even know what that was.
[00:45:49] I learned what leadership was all about at West Point.
[00:45:55] And that's the major difference. When I was in World War II, I was just taking care of myself.
[00:46:05] I wasn't really too concerned about the other guy, what was going on.
[00:46:11] We were all just doing our job.
[00:46:15] That's very different when you're in a combat situation.
[00:46:22] And you got people to pin on each other.
[00:46:26] And we were all dependent upon each other when we were at a tank, but two.
[00:46:32] And each of us were trained to do a job, and they did it.
[00:46:37] I mean, one of the things my but two didn't exist prior to, on paper, it existed.
[00:46:49] It didn't exist physically.
[00:46:52] So what happened when we were activated, the guard house was empty out.
[00:46:59] And we got replaced from Fort Hood, Texas, and that was my but two.
[00:47:05] One of the best soldiers in my but two was my loiter, who had spent most of his army career in the guard house.
[00:47:14] But you can't believe what a great soldier was in combat.
[00:47:19] I mean, because he knew what he was doing, and he was trained to do it, and he did it.
[00:47:24] I will never forget those young men.
[00:47:28] I'm still in email contact with my former gunner, who's now retired as a command sergeant major.
[00:47:40] But he still calls me little tenets.
[00:47:45] Because he was, he kept my ass on a trouble.
[00:47:49] I'll tell you that right.
[00:47:50] I mean, he taught me more about how to be a, but two leaders in anybody will ever understand.
[00:47:58] And I guess the leadership trainer I had at West Point, combined with what he's young men were teaching me.
[00:48:09] It allowed me to become pretty effective a leader throughout not just my military career, but my commercial career too.
[00:48:19] I, I, I strong believer in that leadership works, not just in the military, but in commercial business.
[00:48:30] Yeah.
[00:48:32] You talked about leadership inside of tank.
[00:48:35] What did you see and, and how did you see what was going on that got you to get out of that tank and tell you that you needed to get out of that vehicle and start directing was going on in the ground.
[00:48:47] I wish I knew the answers to that.
[00:48:49] I mean, it just did it.
[00:48:51] I mean, I knew something had to be done.
[00:48:58] And my radio communications with these guys on the ground wasn't working.
[00:49:05] So you've got to, you've got to communicate in the only way you can communicate if the radio isn't working, you've got to get your butt off the, off the tank and down there so you can talk to these guys.
[00:49:19] Because they weren't trying to talk to me.
[00:49:21] I was trying to talk to them and get them, figure out what the hell they should be doing.
[00:49:26] So I just did it.
[00:49:29] I don't know what prompted me to do it.
[00:49:34] It's a good question because I have no idea.
[00:49:37] You know, I, I, I talk about that sometimes.
[00:49:39] I talk about, as a leader being able to identify what I would call, it's, I just called the void of leadership and it's very easy to see when you are used to seeing leadership,
[00:49:52] you know, you know, having a deep feeling of feeling the void when you see a void of leadership, if you're aware to look for it, it's really easy to see when it's there and you go wait a second someone needs to step in here and take charge.
[00:50:02] And so you had that instinct of hey, there's a void of leadership here.
[00:50:06] I got to do something and here we go.
[00:50:09] It's right.
[00:50:10] As much as you said to yourself at one point, I'm going to be inside that tank.
[00:50:14] And then the damn time you needed to tank, you got out of it.
[00:50:17] Well, well, in hindsight, you had to do what you had to do.
[00:50:22] Absolutely.
[00:50:23] And then when what, once you guys held the line and you know, it's funny because I used that expression a lot, just talking about, you know, holding your line with your personal discipline and holding the line with your, your subordinates and we use it metaphorically and it's incredible to see here and talk to you about actually literally holding the line.
[00:50:46] When you guys got done holding the line and you had defeated that, that onslaught from from the North Koreans, what was the next phase?
[00:50:59] Move out and move north and we.
[00:51:04] The first week, we moved four or five miles at the most.
[00:51:13] The next couple weeks, we moved hundreds of miles and I remember.
[00:51:22] Going as fast as we could, north and to marry up with the guys who invaded it in just.
[00:51:32] And we just kept going.
[00:51:38] I, and I don't remember how many opportunities we had to really get into combat.
[00:51:49] After we, we had to push on perimeter until after we got north of, uh, civil.
[00:51:55] I mean, we, uh, invading, I mean, the invasion force of, uh, invaded pretty well clear to that stuff away.
[00:52:07] And so the city of Seoul was open when we, we went right through it and, uh, we kept going north.
[00:52:18] The enemy was retreating pretty fast and we were just going as fast as we could drive enough to roads and, uh, in fact, uh,
[00:52:30] our unit got almost the yellow river, uh, which is about the time to decide to take the,
[00:52:40] take the stuff out of my butt.
[00:52:43] So I, I was sent back to the hospital ship and in the harbor.
[00:52:47] So that's when you got strappin' was when you were up by the, by the yellow river?
[00:52:51] No, no, that's-
[00:52:52] Oh, that had already, that's right. That had happened earlier and the house was coming back.
[00:52:55] The, the stuff was working.
[00:53:00] No, one of the things you, you got to remember is this piece of metal is in my butt.
[00:53:08] Now, in a tank, the tank commander sits his little thing to sit his butt on while he's riding around in the turret.
[00:53:18] Well, you don't do that when you have a piece of metal working his way out. It is painful to say the least.
[00:53:25] And so I couldn't hardly wait for that to happen, but they wouldn't let me go back to the hospital until they got raised and we closed to the surface.
[00:53:34] So when they got close to the surface, they evacuated me.
[00:53:38] And it was in November of 1950 that they sent me back to the hospital ship.
[00:53:46] And then you, then I think you covered this, but then you got done. The metal comes out.
[00:53:51] And then you go back again because you're trying to, you're thinking you're going to get home by Christmas if you can get back to your unit.
[00:53:57] And I got back to the unit eventually, but I didn't get home by Christmas.
[00:54:01] In fact, the, by the time I got back to the unit, we were, the second division that already moved back south almost to the Han River.
[00:54:15] And so I found the unit again somewhere south of somewhat north of the Han River, but still, we were still in North Korea, but it was the south part of North Korea.
[00:54:33] And were you in a, in a situation, did you guys get dug in?
[00:54:37] Because I know part of the Korean War was like they dug in and it was almost like trench warfare.
[00:54:41] Did you enter that phase? Or were you still, guys still moving north and south?
[00:54:46] We, as tanks we never dug in.
[00:54:51] Now, later on, I think the line stabilized pretty much around the 38th barrel.
[00:55:00] And there was a lot of digging in defensive positions as well.
[00:55:07] But that was more infantry not, not to tanks.
[00:55:12] So how did you, how did you end up, what was the last phase of you being over there?
[00:55:17] Like, and what ended up bringing you back to the States?
[00:55:22] Well, the, the line sort of stabilized around the 38th barrel.
[00:55:33] And we would go forward and then we'd come back.
[00:55:38] We would go forward, come back.
[00:55:42] Oftentimes, the, we would do patrolling, I guess, is the right word, patrolling in the forest.
[00:55:55] A tank company was a niffin to come to your attach, ready, and on the tanks would blast forward to some enemy position.
[00:56:09] You didn't do a firefight, take the ground, and then we'd move back again.
[00:56:16] We were just going back and forth around that so-called,
[00:56:24] now turned out to be the 38th barrel, but it was generally that sector.
[00:56:34] Oftentimes, the infantry would get into a lot more heavy firefight, and the tanks would.
[00:56:44] I spent a lot of time supporting infantry attacks with my tank guns, and machine guns covering their vast fine.
[00:56:53] Advancements forward, but, uh, Doug and no, we never, the tanks were never Doug and.
[00:57:02] And then how long did that last for?
[00:57:04] How long did was your unit deployed over there?
[00:57:06] Was it the whole unit that, that ended up going home?
[00:57:09] No, no.
[00:57:10] At a certain point that you cited, at people who had been there a year would come home.
[00:57:20] And we started rotation, and I was one of the first ones to rotate out of my unit,
[00:57:29] because I had some decorations, and because I'd been there a year, and it's set,
[00:57:35] I had a lot of points, and so I was sent back, but I guess I've got back to the United States.
[00:57:49] Labor Day of 1951.
[00:57:53] So I was evacuated, the word evacuated is probably not the right word.
[00:57:59] I was just sent back home.
[00:58:04] And then, so you get back home.
[00:58:06] You know, you are coming home from Korea.
[00:58:09] Obviously, you at least experienced some pretty intense stuff, and you know, you hear a lot of times,
[00:58:14] especially nowadays with guys coming home from Iraq and Afghanistan, with guys struggling to re-adapt to life back in America.
[00:58:25] And I think it's a little bit different, because when you came home, you were still in the army.
[00:58:30] And I think that's the best thing for veterans, you know, if you're still in, I think the veterans that have the hardest time are veterans that get out,
[00:58:36] and all of the sudden, the brotherhood that they are used to is gone, and the mission that they're used to is gone.
[00:58:40] But is that what you experienced and you came home, and you still had your mission of moving forward in the army?
[00:58:48] Yes, I mean, I had no feeling of not being appreciated.
[00:58:56] I mean, obviously, I came back, I came back, I had a daughter born while I was in Korea.
[00:59:09] I was scared to hell out of me. I mean, I still remember this four months old child, I hold for the first time.
[00:59:22] First of all, I ever hold anybody that size.
[00:59:25] Scared to hell out of me.
[00:59:27] I was more scared about that than a lot of the things that happened to me.
[00:59:31] But anyway, I came back, went to Fort Knox.
[00:59:37] Now they simply just school learned to be a battalion leader.
[00:59:42] And so, and then they asked me if I wanted to stay there for a Knox and run an off-sourcanny company.
[00:59:51] And I did. And so, I spent several years running off-sourcanny company.
[00:59:59] And then they decided they didn't need any more off-sourcanny at Fort Knox, so they closed that down.
[01:00:10] And I got to select it to be an aide to John Waters.
[01:00:18] John Waters is a gentle patents, a son and a law.
[01:00:23] And a wonderful experience learned a lot from a real gentleman.
[01:00:33] He was a burger general at that time, the two stars.
[01:00:40] But he eventually retired as a four-star general.
[01:00:45] But he taught me a lot about being an officer.
[01:00:53] Not so much about leadership, but being an officer in New Germany.
[01:00:58] He was an outstanding person.
[01:01:04] And I learned from him.
[01:01:10] When you're working as an aide, you get pretty close to somebody.
[01:01:17] And I always feel very fortunate that I was able to be his aide.
[01:01:23] And I don't know if you know, he's the one in the movie about general patents.
[01:01:31] And then troops in to rescue somebody in a prisoner work camp.
[01:01:36] He was the one who was in the prisoner work camp.
[01:01:40] And he was wounded very seriously there.
[01:01:44] And it was quite an experience working for him for several years.
[01:01:50] That was multiple years.
[01:01:52] Part of multiple years as an aide.
[01:01:54] I spent two and a half years as an aide.
[01:01:57] So, and then he went on to his assignments.
[01:02:07] I went on to my assignments.
[01:02:09] And one of the experiences I had in 1956, I was a company commander of a Shaint company in Bob Molder, Germany.
[01:02:24] And he at that time was running the military assistance command and Yugoslavia.
[01:02:31] And he decided to come up and visit me.
[01:02:35] Now he's the major general.
[01:02:37] And he's coming to visit this captain in Bob Molder, Germany.
[01:02:43] And it was, you can't believe all the other stuff that went on.
[01:02:51] What the hell is he general coming to see you for?
[01:02:55] It's et cetera, et cetera.
[01:02:56] But anyway, we got through all that.
[01:03:00] But he was, he didn't come to visit me in Vietnam.
[01:03:04] When he was Pacific commander.
[01:03:07] But he was, he took care of watching what I was doing.
[01:03:13] So it was an experience.
[01:03:15] One of the experience and a great learning experience to be his aide.
[01:03:20] Yeah, I was actually an aide too for the Admiral.
[01:03:22] That wasn't charge of all the seals.
[01:03:24] And it was a very similar situation for me.
[01:03:26] It was a great guy.
[01:03:27] And I learned a ton about about the way the whole big machine worked.
[01:03:33] You have no idea when you're a young lieutenant.
[01:03:36] You have no idea what's going on behind the scenes.
[01:03:39] And I definitely got to learn a lot about that.
[01:03:41] And the same thing you just talked about, you know,
[01:03:44] I had a great relationship with him.
[01:03:46] And he took care of me and my guys on many occasions,
[01:03:51] which was great.
[01:03:53] And since he was the Admiral,
[01:03:55] one time we were to use a surfer.
[01:03:58] And I was organizing a trip for us to go to Hawaii.
[01:04:02] And we were going to see some of the seals that were stationed out in Hawaii.
[01:04:06] And the big thing I had to do is get organized so that when we got picked up at the airport,
[01:04:10] there were surfboards in the vehicles ready to take us directly to surfing.
[01:04:15] As soon as we showed up,
[01:04:17] the same people say,
[01:04:19] what do you want these surfs?
[01:04:20] You just get the surfboards ready.
[01:04:22] That's what you did for the boss.
[01:04:24] And then so you did that.
[01:04:28] You end up, you end up,
[01:04:30] so 56 year-over-your-competitive commander.
[01:04:33] And what happens in between then and then?
[01:04:36] What?
[01:04:37] And then?
[01:04:38] I was in a unit, second-harm division.
[01:04:47] And at that time, in 57,
[01:04:53] they had something they were going to rotate the force division,
[01:04:57] which was the armoured division, which I had been in for the hood.
[01:05:01] The road take it to Germany,
[01:05:03] and the second armoured division,
[01:05:04] got to rotate back to Port Hood.
[01:05:09] However, I had only been in country for a little over a year.
[01:05:13] And I wasn't eligible to rotate back.
[01:05:17] So they were in their decision for those of us who weren't eligible,
[01:05:26] had to be reassigned.
[01:05:28] And I was reassigned to be at the Second Terry General Staff.
[01:05:33] It had Albert, which is US Army Europe.
[01:05:37] So now I'm going from being a company commander and bomb-holder Germany,
[01:05:41] which is the end of the line.
[01:05:43] All the way to the very senior Army command in Europe.
[01:05:48] And I'm working now for a four-star general in his general staff organization.
[01:05:55] And I had once again a chance to go from learning,
[01:06:03] knowing what's going on down here,
[01:06:06] to watching what's going on,
[01:06:08] very senior leadership.
[01:06:10] And it was another opportunity for a year and a half,
[01:06:16] I had that job, and it was just a great experience learning.
[01:06:21] If you would be the other extreme of where you'd been,
[01:06:26] that was my, and then rotated back to the United States in 59
[01:06:33] to become a math professor at West Point.
[01:06:38] But I spent four years in the math professor.
[01:06:43] And then went to the Army command general staff college
[01:06:47] out at Fort Leavenworth.
[01:06:51] And then the Army decided that they needed to have people,
[01:06:56] counteracting, McNamara's whiskers.
[01:07:02] And so they figured that somebody would have been teaching math,
[01:07:08] probably could have done.
[01:07:10] So they sent me the University of Michigan to get a degree
[01:07:14] in, which turned out to be operations research.
[01:07:21] But the Army sent me to get a degree in,
[01:07:25] I didn't make a data processing,
[01:07:27] which they didn't have such a thing at Michigan.
[01:07:30] But the closest thing to it was industrial engineering operations research.
[01:07:36] So I spent two years there getting a degree.
[01:07:41] And then I rather than go back to the Pentagon for utilization
[01:07:45] to where I volunteered to go to Vietnam.
[01:07:48] So I, and when you say that they were,
[01:07:52] that the Army knew that they needed someone to counteract the whiskers.
[01:07:55] And I've talked about the whiskers,
[01:07:57] and I've covered them somewhat because
[01:08:00] a lot of the people operational on the ground said,
[01:08:03] hey, these statistics that you're coming up with
[01:08:07] don't take into account the human aspect of these
[01:08:10] kind of discomfort in Vietnam.
[01:08:12] So was that something that was felt and understood inside the Army at that time?
[01:08:17] I mean, clearly it was.
[01:08:19] Yes, and that's, the whole idea was to take somebody
[01:08:22] who knew something about the Army and give him some education
[01:08:27] to these kids, so-called kids had,
[01:08:31] and to take a little analysis on all that stuff.
[01:08:36] And so to be the other part of the board,
[01:08:42] and that was to be my utilization tour.
[01:08:47] So there's a great example that,
[01:08:50] and it's the Battle of the I-Drain Valley,
[01:08:53] and Colonel Moore talks about it.
[01:08:56] The fact that what the whiskets basically said,
[01:09:00] one of the things that they said was,
[01:09:02] okay, we can kill 170 Vietnamese soldiers
[01:09:08] for every one of ours that they kill.
[01:09:11] So statistically, we'll just keep running that problem over and over again,
[01:09:15] and we'll end up winning.
[01:09:16] And I always point out,
[01:09:18] and which everyone points out,
[01:09:20] and I'm sure you would point it out as well as
[01:09:22] what they didn't take into account is the fact that number one,
[01:09:27] 170 Vietnamese killed to the Vietnamese,
[01:09:31] was not as big of a deal as we thought it would be,
[01:09:35] and we also didn't take into account that one American dead
[01:09:39] is a lot bigger than the statisticians thought it would be to us.
[01:09:44] And that's just a huge tragedy to go into that situation like that.
[01:09:50] Well, in fact, I,
[01:09:52] many times thought body count was a dumbest thing we've ever come up with
[01:09:59] as a measure of success in combat.
[01:10:03] And I've said that,
[01:10:06] I don't know how many times,
[01:10:08] and I still convinced that was a dumbest thing we've done over the time,
[01:10:16] and I was there participating in it,
[01:10:19] and it was terrible.
[01:10:22] So let's go to Vietnam.
[01:10:25] So you volunteered for Vietnam in 1966?
[01:10:28] Yes.
[01:10:29] Or 65?
[01:10:30] 66.
[01:10:31] Okay.
[01:10:32] And did they automatically say,
[01:10:33] okay, well, your Lieutenant Colonel, that means you're going to take over a squadron of Italian?
[01:10:37] I wish that was okay.
[01:10:40] The fact that the fact that you give the army more credit for it than just do.
[01:10:48] Now, based, along with everybody else,
[01:10:52] I was a Lieutenant Colonel, I arrived in country,
[01:10:55] and I was assigned initially to be the executive officer of the combat operations center of McVee,
[01:11:05] which was the headquarters of all.
[01:11:08] And the combat operations center was Westmoreland's Operation Center,
[01:11:14] and it was run by a Marine Brigadier General, Bill Jones by a name,
[01:11:20] and it was a great man.
[01:11:23] I mean, and I was his exact.
[01:11:26] And we, quote, ran the war, sort of speak,
[01:11:32] the word we as a very loose term from the COC.
[01:11:39] And that was, had quarters right there in Sagan.
[01:11:46] And it was a cushy job.
[01:11:53] I mean, I mean, I went to work on a regular hourly basis.
[01:11:57] I used to go in at night once in a while,
[01:11:59] because President Johnson was going to talk to some of the action officers trying to find out what was happened to these patrols that we were sending out.
[01:12:09] That's a serious sign of micro management, huh?
[01:12:13] Let me tell you, that was a micro management of the first order, and I saw it.
[01:12:18] Absolutely saw it, and happening more often than I cared to remember.
[01:12:24] But I had one of the evenings.
[01:12:30] I met one of my former colleagues, Armour, who was commanding the first,
[01:12:38] the fourth gallery of the first different division.
[01:12:42] He told me he was going to rotate home in December.
[01:12:46] I said, can I get that job?
[01:12:49] He said, he, he, he, he, take me up and introduce me to General Depue,
[01:12:53] who was the vision commander.
[01:12:55] And I went up on, I passed the test.
[01:12:59] He'd have to know General Depue, and he was a no-non-sense guy.
[01:13:06] He, he would, people thought I was crazy, because General Depue was a relieving,
[01:13:13] but dying commanders for incompetence, right and left.
[01:13:18] And I figured, you know, if you go up and do your job, you're going to be okay.
[01:13:24] Don't went up.
[01:13:26] And General Depue introduced me, and General Hollins worked there.
[01:13:32] It was the system to be a commander.
[01:13:36] And Hollins worked in both the no-cavorymen.
[01:13:40] I mean, and he couldn't, the two of them passed on me.
[01:13:43] He said it was okay.
[01:13:45] And so I got reassigned to command of the first and fourth gallery in December of 1966,
[01:13:56] which was a plumb job.
[01:13:59] That was, it was not only a plumb outfit, but General Depue used the cavalry squadron,
[01:14:08] like it should be used.
[01:14:11] Many times later, my successors were all not as lucky as I was.
[01:14:19] I mean, I was able to fight my unit, has the unit.
[01:14:25] I had three ground troops, one cow, a meadow.
[01:14:37] D-trupe was a helicopter troop.
[01:14:41] I had 31 helicopters in it.
[01:14:43] And I had division commander would assign a B-comme of the tank battalion that was assigned to my unit.
[01:14:54] And since there wasn't any real enemy aircraft, he assigned several of the batteries of the enemy aircraft
[01:15:02] unit to my unit.
[01:15:04] So I had a unit to unparalleled in history because General Depue believed the cavalry was supposed to go find the enemy.
[01:15:17] And keep them there until his infantry could show up.
[01:15:20] And we did it more often or not.
[01:15:24] And one of the stories I tell people, I'm self-styled king of the Mr. rubber plantation,
[01:15:36] which is 70 square miles of trees.
[01:15:41] And historically, there's little communities of workers throughout the space.
[01:15:51] And it became these little towns became havens for the North Vietnamese.
[01:16:01] And so we took it upon ourselves to evacuate everybody out of the little villages to the perimeter of the...
[01:16:10] Plantation.
[01:16:13] And then took it upon ourselves to destroy the villages because the North Vietnamese were coming in at night,
[01:16:23] using these places and shallon art units.
[01:16:28] So we were destroying all these little handlers.
[01:16:33] In fact, I had an engineer come here assigned to me.
[01:16:41] And one of the contests was between the captain, who was the engineer come to Commander in myself.
[01:16:44] I'd be of my chopper.
[01:16:46] And he'd be down on the ground.
[01:16:49] And he was going to implode these villages.
[01:16:52] Now if he imploded them all, he won.
[01:16:56] And any of the villages built into what still be standing, I won.
[01:17:02] Now what did we win of beer?
[01:17:05] And more often than not, I won. He didn't lose many.
[01:17:11] But we got...so in the spring of 1967, Ambassador Ellsworth Bunker arrives in Vietnam.
[01:17:27] The first unit he wants to visit is mine.
[01:17:32] Everybody is...what in the world is, why did he pick this and why does he come to see you?
[01:17:42] When he gets out there and all of them, he's got a forestyle general, a couple of them.
[01:17:47] Three-star general and then Division Commander all with them.
[01:17:51] And then we're out in the middle of nowhere. I'm briefing them ambassador.
[01:17:57] I get emotional, I say this.
[01:18:01] He says, Colonel, I got more correspondence of my desk from the French about what in the hell you're doing up here.
[01:18:10] Just trying their village and all the people and calling in all this commotion.
[01:18:15] What are you doing and why are you doing it?
[01:18:18] And I explained to him that why we were doing it because they were being havens for the north.
[01:18:26] And they were coming in and yelling at killing our troops.
[01:18:30] And now I always remember him saying, Colonel, you just keep doing what you're doing.
[01:18:36] I'll take care of the French.
[01:18:38] And I said, God bless you.
[01:18:41] I mean, I still get emotional with that man.
[01:18:46] That gentleman understood what the hell was going on.
[01:18:50] And here we talk about state-department.
[01:18:53] People are not knowing what's going on. He knew what was going on.
[01:18:57] And he told me to keep doing what I was doing.
[01:19:00] And I did it.
[01:19:02] But I will always remember him.
[01:19:05] I think at the time, I'm not sure this.
[01:19:09] He was either the oldest or the oldest ambassador we ever had in the state department.
[01:19:15] But he was out there trapping around and the bunnies with me.
[01:19:19] And it was a rare experience.
[01:19:22] But anyway, it was one of those days when you really think you counted.
[01:19:29] Yeah.
[01:19:32] And he was, to me, that's leadership too.
[01:19:37] He was, he knew what the hell was going on.
[01:19:41] He was able to tell me to keep doing what I was supposed to be doing.
[01:19:45] Yeah. He was a great man.
[01:19:49] So those operations that was at the primary type of operation that you'd be doing is going into areas.
[01:19:56] And basically disrupting what the enemy was up to.
[01:20:01] Basically, the mission was searching destroy.
[01:20:07] And what we did was go find, try to find the enemy.
[01:20:13] And then destroy him.
[01:20:16] So in that, in the mission plantation,
[01:20:21] we thought the enemy was not there.
[01:20:27] But we spent, there was something called the iron triangle.
[01:20:32] North of Saigon is about 30 miles north of Saigon,
[01:20:38] which was our operational area.
[01:20:41] And it was traditionally a haven for the north.
[01:20:51] And or the whoever.
[01:20:54] Anyway, the guys that were shooting at us.
[01:20:57] And you never know whether the north of it in the maze
[01:21:00] or the constructed south feed in the maze.
[01:21:04] But they all looked the same to me.
[01:21:06] And they still do.
[01:21:09] I'm never in Korea.
[01:21:11] I couldn't tell a difference between the north Korean and the south Korean.
[01:21:14] I still couldn't never tell a difference between the south.
[01:21:16] The enemy is the north feed in the maze.
[01:21:19] It made me, there's a way, but I never figured it out.
[01:21:23] And so we just went in and constantly were searching and destroying.
[01:21:30] And if we find the enemy in strength, our job was to hold them there until General Peo and
[01:21:38] get his infantry into helicopters and bring them in and really defeat the enemy.
[01:21:46] On occasion we got in more of a firefight and we expected to be.
[01:21:53] But we generally were pretty good at finding them.
[01:22:00] And the tanks were all right through this forest and knocked the trees right down.
[01:22:05] And it was no problem at all.
[01:22:08] And I was in my helicopter directing.
[01:22:12] And you could see and you tell the tanks were to go.
[01:22:17] And the tanks and the AKs, which were primarily what the unit was all about.
[01:22:25] And so we, that was our job.
[01:22:29] So often I read about units that were over there that never or very, very seldom would
[01:22:35] they see the enemy.
[01:22:36] They would lose guys to sniper fire.
[01:22:38] They'd lose guys to mortar fire.
[01:22:40] They'd lose guys to booby traps.
[01:22:42] But very seldom would they see the enemy.
[01:22:45] And obviously there's units that are different than that.
[01:22:47] But it sounded like you were able to find the enemy on a fairly regular basis.
[01:22:51] Oh yes.
[01:22:53] Are they found us on that?
[01:22:56] Who finds who is not sure there's an answer to that.
[01:23:04] Yes, we were more often that we got in, we had contact.
[01:23:11] I had more than I would like to admit casualties, which didn't happen because they couldn't find the enemy.
[01:23:23] I can tell you they could find us, you know, often remember somebody at a long time
[01:23:31] in my career tell me something about reconnaissance by fire.
[01:23:36] And I remember, well, the tank you had a lot of machine guns and you could do a lot of
[01:23:41] reconnaissance by fire.
[01:23:43] And in the trouble of other reconnaissance by fires, you never know whether they see or not.
[01:23:52] You just know there's somebody shooting at you.
[01:23:55] Well that's good enough.
[01:23:57] That's good enough.
[01:23:58] You don't need any.
[01:24:00] No, whether you're aiming at you or not.
[01:24:06] When you, one of the things that also I talk about and I've read a lot about is the Vietnam War being very difficult
[01:24:15] from a leadership perspective for some leaders, more than others, but because you had drafties.
[01:24:22] And you had drafties, not just drafties that got drafted and okay, I'm going to go do my duty,
[01:24:27] but drafties that got drafted that literally did not believe in what was happening and barely even believed in America as a country.
[01:24:35] How much of that did you see and what was your leadership approach to those troops?
[01:24:42] I saw zero of them.
[01:24:44] I mean, I don't know.
[01:24:47] I was just absolutely lucky.
[01:24:49] I know I'm not that naive.
[01:24:51] I'll tell you, I, the last few guys have been talking to you in reading about this and,
[01:24:56] and there's something that I've noticed a trend.
[01:24:58] So have you heard the term millennials about the new up and coming kids?
[01:25:02] I know what millennials are up.
[01:25:03] So people complain about, you know, especially from a leadership perspective, people talk to me about,
[01:25:08] well, you know, I've got my company and we've got these new, these kids checking in their millennials.
[01:25:12] They're different.
[01:25:13] They're entitled.
[01:25:14] They don't want to work as hard.
[01:25:16] And I started thinking about my head.
[01:25:19] Well, basically you've got a, a work force.
[01:25:21] That's a little bit different.
[01:25:23] And this is very similar to the drafty using Vietnam who had a different attitude.
[01:25:29] And what I found from good leaders is it didn't matter.
[01:25:34] It didn't matter that they had drafty.
[01:25:36] It's a matter of fact, a general mucuyama who I just talked about.
[01:25:39] When I talked to, when I asked him about drafty, he said,
[01:25:42] I didn't even know who was a drafty and who was a life.
[01:25:45] I couldn't tell the difference.
[01:25:47] And Colonel Hacord, Throden, his book, he wrote,
[01:25:51] I love the drafties because they were straight shooters.
[01:25:55] They didn't, when they weren't trying to protect their career,
[01:25:57] they tell you what they thought.
[01:25:59] And you could take their input and you could do something good with it.
[01:26:03] I've said, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh.
[01:26:07] The soldiers I served with and three different wars got better.
[01:26:13] And they were all drafties.
[01:26:15] I mean, I didn't never serve with an all volunteer outfit.
[01:26:20] They were all, no matter where I was, they were drafties.
[01:26:24] And they all did their job.
[01:26:28] I mean, I've never had anybody tell me when their job,
[01:26:35] it wasn't this one, but they wanted to do.
[01:26:38] They just did it.
[01:26:40] And I don't know if that's leadership or I don't,
[01:26:44] but just, if just the way it was.
[01:26:51] And they were all proud to be in our outfit.
[01:26:56] I mean, now, I'm sure other people later on.
[01:27:00] I mean, I've heard of people later on in Vietnam,
[01:27:06] having no problem with drugs.
[01:27:08] And all I can, we didn't have any of that.
[01:27:11] Now, fortunately, I left in 1967.
[01:27:15] So I'm not sure, things got worse perhaps.
[01:27:21] But I think drugs, we are an issue period.
[01:27:29] But I don't know.
[01:27:30] I didn't have any of that kind of a problem.
[01:27:33] And as I said earlier, I'm not naive.
[01:27:36] I believe in knowing exactly what's going on.
[01:27:42] What you find out is walk around and talk to people.
[01:27:46] You don't sit in your tents or in your helicopter.
[01:27:50] You've got to go and talk to the guy on the ground
[01:27:52] and find out what tail's going on.
[01:27:54] And that's what, you know, there's a fellow wrote a book.
[01:27:59] His name was Peters.
[01:28:01] There's many years later.
[01:28:03] And he wrote the book.
[01:28:06] It's called Management by Walking Around.
[01:28:09] And there's a guy made a fortune just doing what I used to do.
[01:28:13] I mean, it's scary.
[01:28:18] But I mean, it's true.
[01:28:20] That's what leadership was all about.
[01:28:22] It's fine out what's going on.
[01:28:24] And then, using some common sense to tell people,
[01:28:30] this is what you're supposed to do or give them some guidance.
[01:28:34] But, I mean, people who used to tell me,
[01:28:39] well, you know how to do things because you can order
[01:28:42] with people to do things.
[01:28:44] And I'm saying, let me tell you something.
[01:28:47] Or learn a guide.
[01:28:48] You get out of a tent to fix the track
[01:28:50] when somebody's shooting at you.
[01:28:52] It's not anybody who goes on to just do it.
[01:28:57] He's going to do it because he knows if you don't get the track fix.
[01:29:00] We're going to get our ass killed.
[01:29:02] I mean, we're going to get going.
[01:29:04] He's going to do it because that's his job.
[01:29:07] And that may be leadership, but I'll tell you.
[01:29:11] It's discipline that comes from people being trained right and taught right and treated right.
[01:29:19] If you don't treat people right, they deserve to treat you wrong.
[01:29:24] And I'm a great believer in treating people the right way.
[01:29:30] I'm just from here and you talk about treating people the right way and listening to people.
[01:29:36] You're, you know, you say when I told people to do stuff they did it.
[01:29:40] Well, yeah, that's because you treated them well.
[01:29:42] You listen to them.
[01:29:43] You have those relationships with your, with your troops.
[01:29:46] And that's what makes people like you said,
[01:29:48] when you've got to have somebody that's going to go out and fix track
[01:29:51] under fire, well, that's somebody that's not going to do that just because you order to do it.
[01:29:55] You better have some some relationships.
[01:29:57] You better have treated them well.
[01:29:59] And they must understand what the why on the mission is to like,
[01:30:03] hey, why this is important.
[01:30:05] So when you, when you look back at World War Two,
[01:30:11] Korea, Vietnam, I was from a tactical perspective,
[01:30:16] actually maneuvering troops.
[01:30:18] Is there any big lessons that you would think back of that you say,
[01:30:23] this is something that I did consistently or this is something that I would never do because I knew it would cause problems?
[01:30:29] Hmm.
[01:30:32] I can't think of anything.
[01:30:35] I'll go back to what I said earlier.
[01:30:39] I've always believed.
[01:30:42] It may be this from growing up in Iowa.
[01:30:45] I don't know. Just treat people like you'd like to be treated yourself.
[01:30:50] And it worked out.
[01:30:55] I don't know.
[01:30:58] I told you about my first sergeant,
[01:31:01] called me Fifi, which pissed me off right frankly.
[01:31:06] But because he was a guy who didn't treat people like people like to be treated.
[01:31:14] And I always was amazed how much I exalted in the fact when he got busted.
[01:31:21] I mean, we were in England on the way over to the continent.
[01:31:27] He got busted for, I don't know what reason,
[01:31:31] but he got busted back to me, being a private.
[01:31:35] That's a big jump from first sergeant down to me and a private.
[01:31:39] And I was happy.
[01:31:42] Because I didn't think this guy was, he's also the guy when I took a test
[01:31:49] to see what I could be smart enough to go to the military academy.
[01:31:52] What the hell are you taking a test for like that for?
[01:31:55] You're not smart enough to go to the West Point.
[01:31:59] And I always would like to be able to say to this guy, if I ever saw him again,
[01:32:04] I'm sure he's dead by now.
[01:32:06] I told you so.
[01:32:08] But if you don't treat people like, they should be treated.
[01:32:16] You deserve to be treated to the opposite way.
[01:32:22] And I just always tried to practice that anyway.
[01:32:27] And so far it's been relatively successful.
[01:32:31] That's a huge underpinning of leadership from everything I've seen.
[01:32:37] Everything I've ever read, every person I've ever talked to.
[01:32:41] If you care about your people, you care about and you want to treat them well as human beings.
[01:32:47] That's the underpinning that really makes leadership work.
[01:32:51] And it's a lot of times, and you mentioned this earlier, a lot of times from the civilian side,
[01:32:55] they think, well, in the military, you can just order people to do things and they'll just do it because you're the boss.
[01:33:00] And that's not true.
[01:33:02] And it's actually when I got out of the military and I started working this civilian sector,
[01:33:06] I thought to myself, well, if you didn't want, if you want somebody to do something and they don't do it, you can just fire.
[01:33:12] But that's not true either because guess what? You'll run out of people really quick.
[01:33:16] And so what you have to do is you have to lead.
[01:33:19] So you have to do it.
[01:33:20] And one of those, the most core underpinnings of leadership is really caring about the people that work for you.
[01:33:26] And I think the more you care about them and I know for me, I cared more about my guys than I did about myself.
[01:33:35] And I wanted to make sure that they were okay and that things were going to go well for them.
[01:33:39] And that was always my priority, my real priority.
[01:33:43] And I suppose someone that was very jaded might think, well, then you know, you're going to get passed over.
[01:33:53] You're not.
[01:33:54] Things are going to work out good for you because you're more worried about your troops.
[01:33:57] And the opposite's actually true.
[01:33:59] And my career was beautiful and all I ever tried to do is take care of the people that worked for me.
[01:34:07] Because that's the way you get to be successful.
[01:34:11] You know, hiring people or working with people, you know, in civilian sector, you hire people.
[01:34:23] And the military, whoever arrived was that that was it.
[01:34:28] I get people.
[01:34:29] But I've always said, your job is to make the boss successful.
[01:34:35] And vice versa, the boss's job is to make them successful.
[01:34:39] And if you work that works out for both of you.
[01:34:44] And to me, leadership, you know,
[01:34:52] we talk about it.
[01:34:55] But it's easy if you follow a few basic principles.
[01:34:59] You don't have to have all the stuff that goes, I mean, people write books on leadership.
[01:35:05] You probably have written books on leadership yourself.
[01:35:08] Well, yes indeed.
[01:35:09] But the fact of that is there's some basics.
[01:35:13] And you just expand on it.
[01:35:15] You don't.
[01:35:17] It isn't that magic if you just follow a few basic principles.
[01:35:22] One of the things we talk about in the book actually is simple, not easy.
[01:35:27] Yeah, because it is.
[01:35:28] And we say that in our book as well as we didn't invent any of this.
[01:35:33] This is stuff that's been around.
[01:35:35] And there's no eureka moments.
[01:35:37] And we're not claiming to have anything startlingly new.
[01:35:41] This is fundamental stuff that if you think about it.
[01:35:44] It's some of it might be stuff you already do as a leader.
[01:35:47] Some of the stuff that you know you should do as a leader.
[01:35:50] And just make it clear for people to understand is is probably the only real benefit of the book itself.
[01:35:56] Okay, this is good stuff.
[01:35:58] Yeah.
[01:35:59] But nothing.
[01:36:01] No rocket science there.
[01:36:03] I didn't need to be a whisk.
[01:36:04] I can't promise you.
[01:36:07] So did you.
[01:36:09] You mentioned earlier when we were not recording that you actually ended up going back.
[01:36:13] You actually ended up going back to Vietnam as and were you a civilian at that time?
[01:36:17] Oh yes, yes.
[01:36:18] Well, my wife and I like to travel.
[01:36:25] So we've traveled most of the places in the world by now.
[01:36:31] And she wanted to go back and see where I'd been in Vietnam.
[01:36:37] And that's one too sure about that.
[01:36:43] But anyway, we had this opportunity.
[01:36:47] And so we went back and I went to Hanhoy, which was an experience.
[01:36:57] And I go to the Hanhoy Hilton and seeing how they've turned that into a propaganda place.
[01:37:05] And I'm still remember seeing this picture on the wall of Senator McCain and a couple other guys I can't remember the names.
[01:37:19] Another one was what a high school class made a mine.
[01:37:26] But day by name, who was an Air Force retired Colonel.
[01:37:31] He got to metal a boner.
[01:37:36] But anyway, and they were shown them in these white pants and white over shirt is if they were on a barbecue.
[01:37:45] You know, everything you've heard about the place was just and they showed you some of the cages that they had people in.
[01:37:54] We actually have had two guests on the podcast that were in the Noilhilton.
[01:38:02] And one of them went back and was talking us through that same propaganda.
[01:38:07] Went back to the Noilhilton as a civilian.
[01:38:11] And just the the feeling he had was pretty strong.
[01:38:18] I can't imagine. But you know, when I was there, I was just seen it from the propaganda and what they were.
[01:38:30] Because it's a big tourist attraction apparently for the the Vietnamese.
[01:38:37] And so we obviously saw it and the knew what it was and and for what it was.
[01:38:47] And I hear all kinds of stories about the people that were there, you know, but.
[01:38:53] And then we went from there to the name and then down to a side gone.
[01:39:02] And I'd hired a car and a guy to take us up back up to my own operational area.
[01:39:13] And drove through the mission of representation, which was sort of a fun experience to see.
[01:39:23] Now it's no longer mission that's stayed on. They took over obviously from their friends, but looks exactly the same.
[01:39:33] I mean trees are lined up, rubber trees just rubber trees, rubber trees.
[01:39:37] And the people are out there working the trees.
[01:39:42] And I don't know if you know this, which is this is an aside.
[01:39:48] You cannot burn a living rubber tree. It won't burn.
[01:39:54] And I've tried hard.
[01:39:57] I mean, I have two flimps or I said, and we tried hard to burn those trees down on the sides of the road.
[01:40:06] Doesn't work.
[01:40:09] And so anyway, we went back up to the old operation area in the same place.
[01:40:19] I was pretty close to where I got wounded.
[01:40:24] When I was in Vietnam, I was in my helicopter flying over this river.
[01:40:30] And I was pretty close to where that happened.
[01:40:34] I could do that because I had to map coordinates of where I had been wounded before.
[01:40:39] Otherwise, I'd guarantee I'd never be able to recognize a place like Tom.
[01:40:44] But my old base camp, which was because I had helicopters over there, had airfield.
[01:40:53] And now being turned into a strip mall.
[01:40:57] So I washed all that happening. But it was seen side gone again.
[01:41:06] It was an amazing experience to see what they've done.
[01:41:11] You see all these tall buildings now.
[01:41:14] But the one officer's club that was on the roof of one of the hotels is still there.
[01:41:24] They're exhausted the same. And my wife and I went up and I had lunch there.
[01:41:29] And my time before I went out to the unit, I used to go up there.
[01:41:38] And we'd go up there and watch out here and see the savers, not savers.
[01:41:51] What do you call the rounds that are tracers? Tracers.
[01:41:55] Thank you. See all the tracers from being fired up and up and back down.
[01:42:01] And you need to experience because you really weren't fighting the war.
[01:42:08] You mean, in Saigon.
[01:42:10] You know, it was so different from there when you went out into the field.
[01:42:17] So it was fun to go back and see what they've done.
[01:42:24] And I was impressed with how much the south fit and the knees have really been serious about getting real business and going.
[01:42:33] And a lot of things happening. Business was up north.
[01:42:37] It's still a grand. It was still a grand at the time.
[01:42:40] Very grand. You mean, very few tall buildings.
[01:42:45] Very few businesses. And so that you can identify.
[01:42:50] And maybe it's still the same because that was 11 years ago now.
[01:42:56] But I don't know what's changed over there.
[01:43:00] But so the north fit in me's one the war sort of speak.
[01:43:06] I say that with tongue and cheek actually.
[01:43:09] But they won the war.
[01:43:11] But I'm not sure that the south feet and the knees aren't coming back and taking over running the country.
[01:43:17] They certainly have the financial strength there.
[01:43:21] And I hope that's a way that eventually will work out.
[01:43:25] Well, the way the rest of the world's gone.
[01:43:27] It's been freedom and democracy and capital.
[01:43:30] It's eventually wins the long war.
[01:43:32] Yeah.
[01:43:32] And we've seen that worldwide. So hopefully it'll happen for them as well.
[01:43:35] How did you get wounded?
[01:43:37] You're third time getting wounded and Vietnam?
[01:43:41] Well, I was one of the missions we had ever evening.
[01:43:49] We'd go into a perimeter.
[01:43:52] And most of the time we'd be in a perimeter around our children unit.
[01:43:57] So they could fire at night without worrying about getting over a run.
[01:44:01] And so I put all of our unit into its perimeter from my helicopter flying around.
[01:44:11] And I noticed a bunch of sand pans evacuating here in the we had.
[01:44:22] So I thought in my John Wayne family,
[01:44:27] I'm going to go now and shoot some of these guys.
[01:44:30] So I got to pilot.
[01:44:33] I was flying in this case in a two passenger.
[01:44:38] I mean, one passenger.
[01:44:41] Bubble helicopter.
[01:44:44] And anyway, so I had this M40.
[01:44:48] You know what an M40 is?
[01:44:50] It's fires. It looks like a shotgun.
[01:44:53] So I'm up there.
[01:44:55] And I'm shooting at these guys in the same pan.
[01:44:59] And I'm doing pretty good, missing a lot, but in any of some.
[01:45:06] One of them shot back.
[01:45:09] And my God hit me.
[01:45:13] In the leg.
[01:45:16] And so I told the driver about taking me back down to the headquarters,
[01:45:21] which was what the squad and surgery was.
[01:45:24] He, I was never forget. He took my pants away.
[01:45:29] And there was blood spurry right out all the way out,
[01:45:33] at least 18 inches from my leg.
[01:45:36] I hit something they call as further.
[01:45:39] And he said, this is a captain speaking to me.
[01:45:43] Colonel, you got damn dumb son of a bitch.
[01:45:46] You could be dead.
[01:45:49] So anyway, he managed me up.
[01:45:51] And the metal's still there.
[01:45:54] Still in my leg.
[01:45:56] But you were, you were turned to duty though, right?
[01:46:01] Oh yeah. I mean, I had been in command more than 30 days.
[01:46:08] I was scared of death.
[01:46:10] I couldn't be evacuated.
[01:46:12] Hell, I had finished out my tour.
[01:46:15] I mean, so.
[01:46:17] One of my friends named Tim Kennedy is a green barray.
[01:46:19] And he has a TV show coming out called Hard to Kill.
[01:46:23] I think maybe we need to get you on that show.
[01:46:26] No, no.
[01:46:28] No, somebody might take me up on it.
[01:46:31] I mean, I, I, I've been fortunate.
[01:46:35] I mean, a lot of people got hurt.
[01:46:38] A lot more seriously and I've been.
[01:46:43] And I've seen some.
[01:46:45] In fact, I've had too many hurt pretty seriously.
[01:46:50] I had one of my.
[01:46:53] My.
[01:46:55] Exile was in the helicopter and got shot.
[01:47:01] Up to the seat of the helicopter and all the strap and everything.
[01:47:05] What right into his leg and he was.
[01:47:09] Forever.
[01:47:10] In bad shape.
[01:47:12] I mean, I mean, so I've seen a lot of people
[01:47:14] get hurt pretty badly.
[01:47:16] I've been, I've been fortunate.
[01:47:20] I mean.
[01:47:22] But I'm also had the attitude.
[01:47:25] I'm not going to get shot and killed.
[01:47:28] I mean.
[01:47:29] No, that's worked out.
[01:47:32] But.
[01:47:33] Going back to.
[01:47:36] You know, when I got out of that tank to go back in Korea.
[01:47:41] I had no more idea that I was going to kill.
[01:47:44] That wasn't going to enter into my mind.
[01:47:47] I just had something to do.
[01:47:49] And.
[01:47:51] That may be foolish.
[01:47:54] But it's just the way it was.
[01:47:58] Yeah, I think if you're.
[01:48:00] If you were thinking about.
[01:48:01] What could happen?
[01:48:03] You wouldn't do anything.
[01:48:04] You couldn't do anything.
[01:48:05] You went right.
[01:48:06] Yeah.
[01:48:07] So you're.
[01:48:09] You wrap up your squadron commander and Vietnam.
[01:48:12] And again, I mean, you were taking.
[01:48:14] How often would you guys you're getting in fire fights a lot?
[01:48:17] What was your what was your cash rate of casualties like?
[01:48:22] How many guys did you lose how many people were killed while you were there as a squadron commander?
[01:48:27] How many were killed?
[01:48:29] Probably can.
[01:48:32] Not too many.
[01:48:34] I mean.
[01:48:36] When you have a.
[01:48:40] A calves.
[01:48:41] Do you know what a knee calf is?
[01:48:43] That's a personnel carrier.
[01:48:45] I mean, a calf stands for armored cavalry assault vehicle.
[01:48:49] But it's.
[01:48:51] It was M1 13's.
[01:48:53] That can those days.
[01:48:54] I don't know.
[01:48:55] I don't know what they're called.
[01:48:56] We still used M1 13's.
[01:48:58] We used M1 13's in Ramadi.
[01:49:00] The same exact.
[01:49:01] So we we are very familiar.
[01:49:03] We both read in the back of them.
[01:49:05] Well, they're pretty well protected.
[01:49:08] And the tanks are we have patent tanks and they're protected.
[01:49:13] So yeah, we had casualties because.
[01:49:21] And in a cavalry troop.
[01:49:24] We have infantry right in the AKS.
[01:49:27] So when they get out.
[01:49:29] But I don't know that statistics.
[01:49:36] I wrote enough letters.
[01:49:39] But not very.
[01:49:41] I mean, one is more than enough.
[01:49:44] But.
[01:49:47] I don't remember how many I wrote.
[01:49:51] But because I did that for everybody was killed.
[01:49:57] But I don't.
[01:49:59] I don't know the statistics.
[01:50:02] Not too many not overborn burdened.
[01:50:06] I mean, in the sense it.
[01:50:11] I got several people's names on the wall.
[01:50:17] I go there every year.
[01:50:20] Just just stand there.
[01:50:24] But I don't know.
[01:50:27] Jack, I don't know the answer.
[01:50:29] I understand sir.
[01:50:32] When you got home from Vietnam, you know,
[01:50:34] you talked about coming home from Korea and everyone's in uniform.
[01:50:39] And, you know, we hear stories of guys coming home from Vietnam.
[01:50:45] And they literally get told, don't wear you uniform around.
[01:50:49] How different was the reception from World War II,
[01:50:52] to Vietnam?
[01:50:55] Well, coming back from Vietnam was a sad experience.
[01:51:12] We thought we'd been doing a good job.
[01:51:14] We thought we'd been doing the right job.
[01:51:18] And I came back to the Pentagon.
[01:51:24] I sort of witnessed the experience of the country being up on arms about Vietnam.
[01:51:39] So, I didn't feel too appreciated, I guess, as the right word.
[01:51:46] And yet, I didn't feel like I'd been doing a good job.
[01:51:54] So, I didn't have any bad feelings.
[01:52:03] Most of those feelings about what was going on came after I got out.
[01:52:10] So, I retired in 69 and things began to go to hell in the country about what we were doing over there.
[01:52:24] Well, right after I got out, I guess.
[01:52:29] My job when I got out, I mean, when I came home was,
[01:52:36] I was in the second tier of defense at this level.
[01:52:41] I told you earlier, the Army sent me to school to learn to contact the Wizkis.
[01:52:48] Well, guess what?
[01:52:50] When I came back, Army sent me to be a Wizkid.
[01:52:55] I was a stand-up to the second tier of the general staff,
[01:53:02] Alan Antoven's organization, which was called Systems Analysis.
[01:53:07] And that's for all the Wizkis were.
[01:53:10] And they had a representative of the Army Navy Air Force Brinkore, all four of us.
[01:53:16] And we were sure of the other energy that Tito taught were.
[01:53:20] We were, we were supposed to balance some of these smart young men that were the,
[01:53:26] the, quote, Wizkis. And as I've told people, I've never wiser a kid,
[01:53:32] but I was in that organization.
[01:53:34] And it was an experience.
[01:53:37] They wouldn't let me work on anything Army.
[01:53:41] And I had, because they knew I had to go back to the Army.
[01:53:46] See, that was, and you had to be sitting there making decisions that could be against the Army.
[01:53:55] What the Army wanted to be as opposed.
[01:53:58] One of the things I was involved with, because I was involved with the Navy in the Air Force,
[01:54:07] the Navy wanted to build another nuclear submarine.
[01:54:13] Well, it's only so many capital ships that was by law.
[01:54:21] And so they'd be, I asked why there was, I can't remember.
[01:54:27] And I think 13 capital ships, so what over the number was?
[01:54:30] I asked, why is that number 13?
[01:54:34] It took quite a while for them to figure out the answer.
[01:54:39] And it really was very simple.
[01:54:41] We've gone back to the League of Nations, probably in Tito's, I mean, in 1920 to something.
[01:54:48] When they, they've partly doubted to the various World War of One winners,
[01:54:55] the number of capital ships.
[01:54:57] I called battleships.
[01:54:59] Numbers of ships that each country would have.
[01:55:02] And that's where the, this number came from.
[01:55:05] Well, I, that was just, uh, now, I learned to ask that question,
[01:55:17] because when I was going to Michigan, one of, one of the professors said,
[01:55:22] this was in statistics class.
[01:55:27] I want to know what, you want to, what, not what the results are.
[01:55:32] I want to know what the assumptions are.
[01:55:35] And so I was asking this assumption, why is there,
[01:55:38] X number of capital ships?
[01:55:40] It was a simple question.
[01:55:42] I, I didn't know I was creating a challenge.
[01:55:45] I mean, it, it turned out to be exactly what I was saying.
[01:55:51] It was a strange phenomenon for the,
[01:55:55] the time to try to figure out why that number.
[01:55:59] I don't know what the world is now, but I can tell you, at that point,
[01:56:04] this was the 1968, I guess.
[01:56:09] It was a question that they took a wild answer.
[01:56:15] By the way, I don't know how many capital ships we have.
[01:56:18] I don't know what they're called today, but we have a lot more than I think we had
[01:56:22] back in those days.
[01:56:24] So what made you decide to retire?
[01:56:28] Well, I had 25 years in the military.
[01:56:34] And I decided I wanted to think about doing something else.
[01:56:42] Part of it was, I used to listen to people, tell me,
[01:56:48] you just order people to do things they do it.
[01:56:52] So that's, there's a lot of bologna.
[01:56:55] So I wanted to go and see, got my,
[01:56:59] if you would, teeth on, try and something in civilian work world.
[01:57:05] So I started a bunch of resumes out,
[01:57:10] I eventually, was hired to go down to Texas.
[01:57:19] And, fellow that hired me was retired,
[01:57:26] maybe a reader.
[01:57:30] By the way, as an aside, I was assigned to the first squadron,
[01:57:36] I think it's called, that flew jets off of aircraft carriers.
[01:57:41] Got my name in Felix, to Blonsky.
[01:57:44] It was a wonderful man.
[01:57:47] But if you wanted to know what time it was,
[01:57:51] he'd tell you how to build the watch.
[01:57:54] He hired me and our job there was to figure out how to use
[01:58:10] from LTV's computer resources,
[01:58:15] how to use these in civilian application.
[01:58:20] And, one of the things we did was we developed
[01:58:30] for Dallas, exes and owes that they used to do on the
[01:58:37] job board on the computer screen.
[01:58:43] It just became a way that apparently,
[01:58:47] Dallas cobblestone would teach a guy's how to react
[01:58:51] to whatever police it was.
[01:58:53] So, that was using some of this fancy technology
[01:58:59] that LTV had to build something that was
[01:59:03] applicable in civilian life.
[01:59:06] Well, the length of LTV, the length, the tip of what?
[01:59:13] It's only got challenged because he was creating a huge empire
[01:59:20] and the anti-trust people got after him.
[01:59:25] And all of a sudden, our arm was part that I was in,
[01:59:30] was one for 30 people to four.
[01:59:33] And I was one of the four.
[01:59:35] And I don't know to this day, I still don't know why they can't.
[01:59:38] I just been there less than a year.
[01:59:41] But the guy who tried to hire me into computer sciences
[01:59:47] previously, offered me a job with computer sciences.
[01:59:53] Even though I had a job, I knew that this place was not a
[01:59:57] place that long-term could be.
[02:00:00] So, I went to work for computer sciences,
[02:00:03] and there's been 15 years there.
[02:00:05] And it returned from there.
[02:00:09] It's one of the presidents, one of their divisions.
[02:00:13] And one of the things that my bosses used to say,
[02:00:21] I was one of the few leaders they had.
[02:00:25] But a lot of managers, but I was leading a group.
[02:00:30] And we came very successful.
[02:00:33] Much more so that I ever imagined we could be.
[02:00:36] It was primarily in sales and marketing.
[02:00:40] And I had a boss that said, who was from my B.M.
[02:00:43] and strict IBM suit kind of guy.
[02:00:47] You know, you've heard all stories about him.
[02:00:49] And he said, he said, if I were to go back to my comrades that I
[02:00:55] B.M. and tell them that I just hired the former Army Colonel
[02:01:00] to be at a sales, they'd all think I was God damn crazy.
[02:01:05] And so, anyway, I had a great career at computer sciences.
[02:01:11] And as I said, I retired from there.
[02:01:16] And I'm not a typist.
[02:01:21] When I was going to high school, if you took typing,
[02:01:24] you weren't going to college.
[02:01:26] It was back.
[02:01:28] So this thing called voicemail appeared to me.
[02:01:32] And I said, so another fill on I started a company
[02:01:39] in the voicemail business, 1984.
[02:01:43] And it was pretty successful.
[02:01:48] And we sold it in 1998.
[02:01:52] And I stopped working since then.
[02:01:57] Well, that is awesome.
[02:02:04] And I know we've kept you here for a couple hours now.
[02:02:07] And probably a good place to at least stop for this particular session.
[02:02:11] Is there anything else you want to say anything else you want to close out with?
[02:02:15] Well, I can say this.
[02:02:17] I met my wife on my first assignment from the Pentagon.
[02:02:24] And my job in the Pentagon, among other things, was to control the number of
[02:02:31] troops on the ground in Vietnam.
[02:02:33] Congress mandated that we 550,000 people on the ground.
[02:02:39] My job was to be sure that that number was met.
[02:02:44] So when the Secretary of Defense went to Fort Congress, he could always say
[02:02:48] that we have never purchased.
[02:02:51] So on a quarterly basis, I would go to Hawaii.
[02:02:56] And people from Hawaii, Thailand, Korea, Philippines, and Hawaii would all meet
[02:03:04] at the headquarters in the Hill.
[02:03:07] And we'd go over, because when Westmore and a lot to replace an
[02:03:12] ACAC at Batai and whether it's infantry Batai and different numbers and everything is different.
[02:03:18] So we had to do all this monitoring and keeping track of how many troops we had.
[02:03:26] My wife was a schoolteach in California, and she was over their own
[02:03:30] vacation.
[02:03:32] And one of my former colleagues from Vietnam, she knew him.
[02:03:38] And some of them were met.
[02:03:44] In the next two years, we dated cross country.
[02:03:48] She didn't California meet in the Pentagon.
[02:03:51] And I would go every quarter to the Hawaii and I was for this meeting.
[02:03:55] I'm telling you about.
[02:03:56] So I plan the meeting to be started on Tuesday.
[02:04:00] So I could fly from here to California.
[02:04:05] I spend some time with her.
[02:04:08] Then I fly off to Hawaii and I was.
[02:04:12] And then on the way back, I'd stop until the same thing.
[02:04:15] Then it'd be up back here.
[02:04:16] So anyway, we got married in 19, after I got out retired in 69.
[02:04:24] And we got married in October, 69.
[02:04:30] And the reason I was still living today is because of her.
[02:04:35] She keeps me alive.
[02:04:38] She keeps carrying me.
[02:04:42] So she's the principal reason that I can sit here and talk to you.
[02:04:48] Well, then we'll say thank you to you for coming on.
[02:04:52] And we'll say thank you to your wife for getting you here.
[02:04:56] Because sir, once again, this has just been an absolute honor to be able to talk to you.
[02:05:02] To be able to hear the stories and the lessons that you learned and thank you.
[02:05:07] Well, from all of us for your service, your sacrifice.
[02:05:12] And it's been an honor.
[02:05:15] Well, you all deserve the honor.
[02:05:18] I mean, you guys, I don't know what it would be like to be in the service today.
[02:05:25] Frankly, I see these guys.
[02:05:30] My nephew deployed six times twice to Iraq once for the Somali extraction.
[02:05:42] Plus three other times, he just deployed you know.
[02:05:48] Now, how he did this, I'll never know, but he never left Camp Pendleton.
[02:05:56] I mean, he did, he was a drill sergeant down at MCRD.
[02:06:04] But he could move back to Pendleton.
[02:06:07] I mean, his wife lived there the whole time.
[02:06:12] He's 20 years in the Marine Corps.
[02:06:15] All the same.
[02:06:16] I never figured that out.
[02:06:18] I moved around like, but my wife would tell you.
[02:06:23] She, she and I got married after I got her.
[02:06:27] We're in our 17th house.
[02:06:29] We've only been married for him almost 49 years.
[02:06:33] I mean, so everybody said, well, you were in the military.
[02:06:37] We didn't do this.
[02:06:38] She was never in the military.
[02:06:40] We moved all the time since then.
[02:06:43] I mean, you stay in San Diego.
[02:06:47] I'll do my best.
[02:06:49] I'll do my best.
[02:06:51] And again, yeah, absolutely the troops that are out there today.
[02:06:54] And there's a lot of troops that listen to this.
[02:06:56] Guys out there holding the line and doing those deployments over and over again.
[02:07:01] But, you know, the work that we do today is based on the lessons that we learn from your generations from the three wars that you fought.
[02:07:09] And what you passed on to us, and it was an honor for us to continue to carry the flag.
[02:07:15] So thank you.
[02:07:16] Thank you.
[02:07:17] Keep carrying it.
[02:07:18] Yes, sir.
[02:07:19] And Colonel Tom Fife has departed.
[02:07:24] And obviously it is an honor to get to talk to him.
[02:07:29] And thanks for setting that up, Dave.
[02:07:32] Yeah, man, that was awesome.
[02:07:33] Much appreciated three war veteran.
[02:07:36] I mean, come on.
[02:07:38] Come on.
[02:07:40] That's just unbelievably awesome to sit and listen to.
[02:07:44] And you know what?
[02:07:45] Thanks, Dave for setting that up.
[02:07:47] And also thanks to everyone that that supports this podcast so that we have the opportunity to bring people on like Colonel Tom Fife and be able to share those lessons on which there was a ton in there.
[02:08:02] So thank you all for supporting and echo.
[02:08:04] If people do want to support.
[02:08:06] Sure.
[02:08:08] Can you maybe feel something on how to do that?
[02:08:10] Sure.
[02:08:11] Let me start with our company.
[02:08:14] Oh, origin.
[02:08:15] That's the company.
[02:08:18] Origin main.com is the website.
[02:08:23] There you can get.
[02:08:25] Jocquad is supplement.
[02:08:26] You can get Jocquad supplements.
[02:08:27] Jocquad super krill oil for your joints.
[02:08:33] Joint warfare for your joints don't run out by the way.
[02:08:36] Dave Burke.
[02:08:37] You're I don't know if you've been on the in the situation of running out of super krill when you depend on super krill.
[02:08:44] That's a bad situation.
[02:08:46] And if you ever want to reduce the risk of running out do the subscriptions.
[02:08:51] That's what I do.
[02:08:52] Kind of subscription subscription.
[02:08:55] You just get your allotted amount per month or however often you need it.
[02:09:01] Also pre-mission supplement.
[02:09:03] It's called discipline.
[02:09:05] Hold on Dave, you're firing up on discipline.
[02:09:09] You said you said to me and I quote, I live on discipline.
[02:09:13] Yeah, it has become a daily part of my life for sure.
[02:09:16] You've got it in the brain.
[02:09:18] Yep.
[02:09:19] You use it before you work.
[02:09:20] Yep.
[02:09:21] You're studying your work and you're prepping.
[02:09:23] That's your go to.
[02:09:24] The stuff is awesome.
[02:09:25] I use it probably more than I should.
[02:09:27] Yeah.
[02:09:28] It's a joke.
[02:09:29] I don't know if there's a some kind of a, you know, limitation health wise.
[02:09:34] Like if you're drinking nine gallons a day.
[02:09:37] I'm going to make gallons.
[02:09:38] I'll let you know.
[02:09:39] Yeah.
[02:09:40] Yeah.
[02:09:43] Check.
[02:09:44] All right.
[02:09:45] Well, there it is.
[02:09:46] It's a great, everything.
[02:09:48] Pre-mission.
[02:09:49] Pre-workout.
[02:09:50] Pre-testing.
[02:09:51] Pre-juditsu.
[02:09:52] Now you're going to get mad or whatever or you're going to make, you give me your attitude.
[02:09:56] Because you know, you make fun of me because I want to get to taste good.
[02:09:59] Yeah.
[02:10:00] You make fun of me.
[02:10:01] Yeah.
[02:10:02] And there's not even that much I can say about that because it's a legitimate thing.
[02:10:05] For me, be jocled to be like, I want it to taste good.
[02:10:09] It's kind of a weakness, right?
[02:10:10] It's kind of soft.
[02:10:11] Right.
[02:10:12] Well, that being said, we have another flavor coming.
[02:10:17] I'm going to tell you what.
[02:10:19] Well, first of all, it's a two-thicks.
[02:10:21] First of all, it tastes good.
[02:10:22] Yeah.
[02:10:23] I know, best.
[02:10:24] Second of all, it's, it's, it's basically peanut collagan.
[02:10:30] But I can't call it that.
[02:10:31] And that's like, I can't do that.
[02:10:33] Yeah.
[02:10:34] I can't do that.
[02:10:35] So it's going to be called the coconut pineapple.
[02:10:37] Sure.
[02:10:38] Just straight peanut collagan.
[02:10:39] Because I just can't.
[02:10:40] No, no.
[02:10:41] This is not, that's not how.
[02:10:42] Yeah.
[02:10:43] No, that's not how.
[02:10:44] Yeah.
[02:10:45] You did mention that.
[02:10:46] And I'm impressed that you're sticking with the delicious, luxurious, tasty, really good.
[02:10:53] But that's one of those things.
[02:10:55] Like, you like peanut collagan.
[02:10:56] You like that flavor.
[02:10:57] Like, I've heard of people not really liking it.
[02:10:59] But that could have to do with the fact that you know how like when you drink
[02:11:02] alcohol too much.
[02:11:03] And it has like a, like, to kill a little habit.
[02:11:06] You know, you know, if you just drink too many of them, you get drunk.
[02:11:09] Yeah.
[02:11:10] It's very, very.
[02:11:11] Now you can never drink it again.
[02:11:12] No, if you smell it, you feel off.
[02:11:14] You know, I think it's a killer right now.
[02:11:16] To kill it is like that.
[02:11:17] That's for sure.
[02:11:18] You agree with it.
[02:11:19] Yeah, yeah.
[02:11:20] I don't agree with it.
[02:11:21] During my younger years, I had like a 14 month hiatus from the egg.
[02:11:24] After I had a, that's it.
[02:11:26] Yeah, that's it.
[02:11:27] Yeah, that's it.
[02:11:28] Yeah, that's what peanut collagan is.
[02:11:29] That's what I'm doing.
[02:11:30] That's what I'm doing.
[02:11:31] That's what I'm doing.
[02:11:32] You know what, young stupid and motivated.
[02:11:34] Yeah.
[02:11:35] Like you know, you're actually motivated to go over to do this.
[02:11:37] That's a bad.
[02:11:38] Sure.
[02:11:39] Dumb.
[02:11:40] Yeah.
[02:11:40] But if you haven't had that experience with peanut collagan, I would assume that that's a, that's a pretty high rate of acceptance as far as deliciousness goes in my opinion.
[02:11:49] Or in my, by my estimation, I think my hypothesis or whatever.
[02:11:53] Nonetheless, it's called disciplines.
[02:11:55] Pre-mission this, whether you love peanut collagan or love lemon lime,
[02:12:00] ish flavor with other delicious factors in it.
[02:12:05] That's a good thing, but it's good because it makes your brain more healthy.
[02:12:09] And your body, pre-mission pre-workout, pre-test, taking pre-meeting, pre-judicatory,
[02:12:13] workout, cognitive, and physical force multiplier.
[02:12:17] That's what that is.
[02:12:18] So get on now and of course, also, Giz and rashguards, Dave Burke.
[02:12:23] You need to talk about milk.
[02:12:25] Yeah.
[02:12:26] You missed the milk.
[02:12:27] Yeah.
[02:12:28] I didn't really miss it. I was going to save it for last, but not at all.
[02:12:31] Okay.
[02:12:32] I'll get on. I'll get back in my lane over here.
[02:12:33] No, because I just had a whole thing I was going to do with it.
[02:12:36] Raskar, it's telling me about it.
[02:12:37] I feel like we should do the milk now, because you've got kind of kind of
[02:12:40] brought it up, which is, you know, if for lack of a better term,
[02:12:43] it's actually, it is a better term.
[02:12:47] It's not protein part.
[02:12:48] It's protein powder, but it's a better term for this particular protein powder.
[02:12:52] Moke.
[02:12:53] Yeah.
[02:12:54] Mint chocolate.
[02:12:55] Just kissy.
[02:12:56] The dog is the Crimean.
[02:12:57] You're still in the milk?
[02:12:58] Yeah.
[02:12:58] He's not the milk, and he just told me he's going to get it this week.
[02:13:00] Well, I will say this.
[02:13:02] I never was into protein powder.
[02:13:04] Aside from, you're still in my school.
[02:13:05] You're still not.
[02:13:06] I'm still...
[02:13:07] You went to milk.
[02:13:10] Red, correct, correct.
[02:13:12] But, this one is one of those good ones where kind of like you in the discipline
[02:13:15] where you're like pounding at all the time.
[02:13:17] So, I give my daughter Dzerk, right.
[02:13:19] Oh, yeah.
[02:13:20] This is a dessert.
[02:13:21] Straight up straight up?
[02:13:22] Yeah.
[02:13:23] It tastes that good.
[02:13:24] I'll put a couple of drops of it in there.
[02:13:26] Try to do that.
[02:13:27] But two drops of vanilla put an egg and put it in the blender.
[02:13:31] They're swear to me.
[02:13:32] In fact, you know what, don't do it.
[02:13:34] Don't do it.
[02:13:34] You'll do it in the same boat as me.
[02:13:36] That's when the last is like a dessert.
[02:13:37] And there's protein, not it's good, man.
[02:13:39] Because I used to make these milk shakes when I was young.
[02:13:42] Like, I just homemade milk shake.
[02:13:43] You more swallow.
[02:13:45] Probably.
[02:13:47] Probably.
[02:13:47] Victor.
[02:13:49] And the last thing used to make these milk shakes when I was young,
[02:13:51] they were, they had vanilla, egg, like a teeny tiny piece of banana, milk.
[02:14:00] And some other stuff, some sugar in there.
[02:14:03] And it was good.
[02:14:04] It was like a solid milk shake.
[02:14:05] Like good.
[02:14:06] Like almost like you bled it from a gourmet spot.
[02:14:08] Well, the milk is no joke when it comes to milk shake simulator.
[02:14:11] Yeah.
[02:14:11] Mint, mint chocolate.
[02:14:13] Your favorite peanut butter is coming.
[02:14:14] Peanut butter is chocolate.
[02:14:15] Chocolate peanut butter is coming.
[02:14:17] Chocolate peanut butter, milk is on its way.
[02:14:20] Straight up, deep brick when you get on it, you're going to stand that.
[02:14:22] So you're just going to be pounding discipline and milk all day.
[02:14:25] The way they break.
[02:14:27] Only days break.
[02:14:28] Like an echo.
[02:14:29] Easy to look like echo Charles.
[02:14:30] Yeah.
[02:14:31] So all in.
[02:14:32] Six months, dude.
[02:14:33] Lift the engine to milk.
[02:14:34] All that stuff.
[02:14:35] Also, geese and rash guards.
[02:14:37] We can talk about that.
[02:14:38] If you want, unless you have another suggestion on what else I should talk about.
[02:14:42] I'm saying, I want to do the right thing over here.
[02:14:45] No, I'm saying, Dave Burke.
[02:14:46] Kind of give you a good day for work.
[02:14:47] You do get your right.
[02:14:48] I do.
[02:14:49] So the one good thing about starting geogitsi with 45.
[02:14:53] I discovered the one good thing about it and said starting at 15 is I never have any
[02:14:59] of those stories where I tell about how uncomfortable the gear is or how the rash guards
[02:15:03] get me.
[02:15:04] You know, or the geese are hard to wash.
[02:15:05] I got origin maingees time to from the geogitsi.
[02:15:08] From the get going out of the geogitsi.
[02:15:10] There's like someone that never had a flip phone in 1994.
[02:15:14] Just woke up and they had an iPhone 6.
[02:15:16] Starting with the iPhone 10.
[02:15:17] Yeah.
[02:15:18] You're just out of the geogitsi.
[02:15:19] I don't know what it's like to have grown up with all that terrible gear you guys
[02:15:23] use.
[02:15:24] You know what it was like in the day.
[02:15:26] Yeah.
[02:15:27] Yeah.
[02:15:28] Well, that's actually good news in my opinion, you know, because working, not working,
[02:15:34] but working out and doing you just in a junkie, rather first gear head, man.
[02:15:40] You know, like you ever, when you buy your first suit, same deal.
[02:15:44] Like you don't know.
[02:15:45] I don't know.
[02:15:46] I don't know.
[02:15:47] Just like that.
[02:15:48] Like, oh, I see go to the school.
[02:15:49] I'll even go buy one.
[02:15:50] I don't know.
[02:15:51] Whatever.
[02:15:52] So same thing.
[02:15:52] So I went and bought a gear and it was like, I bought a cheap one.
[02:15:54] Yeah.
[02:15:55] 40 bucks.
[02:15:56] No, no straight.
[02:15:57] See, I bought my first gear was in a key.
[02:15:59] I bought from the Akito store.
[02:16:01] Yeah.
[02:16:02] Because the geogitsi place, they were like a 200 bucks.
[02:16:04] I'm like, oh, go, not happening.
[02:16:06] I've a find a different one.
[02:16:07] Yeah.
[02:16:08] I found this cheap one.
[02:16:09] On bleached.
[02:16:10] Have you ever heard of this?
[02:16:11] Unbleached cotton.
[02:16:12] That was even cheaper in the bleached cotton.
[02:16:14] It's an off-white.
[02:16:15] Yeah.
[02:16:16] It feels like it's filled with steel wool.
[02:16:17] Scratching it in your skin.
[02:16:18] Yeah.
[02:16:19] But that's hard.
[02:16:20] And it lasted like four weeks.
[02:16:23] So yeah, get a quality gear.
[02:16:24] It's a bit more ginkae.
[02:16:26] That was a key to the key.
[02:16:27] It was an Akito gear.
[02:16:28] It looked.
[02:16:29] It felt similar from the external viewpoint to a jitter ge.
[02:16:36] But it wasn't.
[02:16:37] And it damn sure wasn't made in America.
[02:16:41] Made in Maine.
[02:16:42] You know what's awesome is to know to literally know the people.
[02:16:46] Because we've been in the factory.
[02:16:49] I know the people that made those.
[02:16:51] I know them.
[02:16:52] Yeah.
[02:16:53] I like I say, oh, hey, how you doing?
[02:16:54] Oh, I'm over here making a geek.
[02:16:56] Yeah.
[02:16:56] That's real.
[02:16:57] That's what's happening.
[02:16:58] Yeah.
[02:16:59] And on top of that, that's mentioned.
[02:17:01] The cotton.
[02:17:02] That was loomed right there in the building.
[02:17:04] That's right.
[02:17:05] It's from America too.
[02:17:06] That's something.
[02:17:07] And you said, I was talking about peed about this.
[02:17:09] The cotton.
[02:17:10] It's not all cotton.
[02:17:12] It's.
[02:17:13] What is it?
[02:17:14] Poly.
[02:17:15] So it's a poly cotton blend.
[02:17:17] And I thought that the two strands were different.
[02:17:20] And it's woven together.
[02:17:22] No, they make that that actual thread is cotton.
[02:17:27] Poly cotton.
[02:17:28] The thread itself that you weave is that's why that's why you can put it in the dryer to dry like a normal piece of clothing.
[02:17:35] Not four hours.
[02:17:36] You pull it out and you stuff the hang it up because it's all cotton.
[02:17:39] It just holds on to the water.
[02:17:41] It gets out of there.
[02:17:42] Yeah.
[02:17:43] Made in America.
[02:17:44] So yeah.
[02:17:45] You.
[02:17:46] Good.
[02:17:47] Good.
[02:17:48] Dave Burke.
[02:17:49] Boom.
[02:17:50] Origin.
[02:17:52] Geey.
[02:17:53] No history of discomfort in other geese.
[02:17:56] No.
[02:17:57] No.
[02:17:58] Stinky.
[02:17:59] Area of the house.
[02:18:00] Where wet geese are hanging up for four days.
[02:18:02] Yep.
[02:18:03] Yeah.
[02:18:04] And I'll say this for all the stuff at Origin.
[02:18:06] Everything they make is awesome.
[02:18:07] On their website to talk about the hoodie.
[02:18:09] They call it the most comfortable hoodie ever.
[02:18:11] Yeah.
[02:18:12] I grew up 100%.
[02:18:13] And the most comfortable hoodie I've ever owned.
[02:18:16] So that stuff is legit.
[02:18:17] No joke.
[02:18:18] No.
[02:18:19] No personal offense to you Dave because I respect you.
[02:18:22] I do.
[02:18:23] I really respect you as a person.
[02:18:24] But your level of measuring comfort is not even close to echo.
[02:18:28] Echo is sort of the quality comfort control guy.
[02:18:31] And he has already made this statement.
[02:18:33] So you saying it is like everyone is listening on whatever.
[02:18:36] Yeah.
[02:18:37] You're in the Marine Corps.
[02:18:38] You've done some.
[02:18:39] You've, you know, you've done some tough stuff in your life.
[02:18:41] They're looking at echo.
[02:18:43] They're like wait.
[02:18:44] If echo thinks it's gonna go.
[02:18:45] We're in.
[02:18:46] Yeah.
[02:18:47] That actual statement is meaning.
[02:18:49] Yeah.
[02:18:50] Yeah.
[02:18:51] But I will say, you know, sure.
[02:18:52] Like, of course, Dave Burke, of course.
[02:18:54] You know, you know, I, yeah.
[02:18:55] I am the gold standard of comfort.
[02:18:57] The evaluation for sure.
[02:18:58] I think.
[02:18:59] And I will second that.
[02:19:00] It is the hoodie and the pants by the way.
[02:19:03] So yeah.
[02:19:05] Get those as well.
[02:19:06] All made in America.
[02:19:07] The compression gear and rash guards.
[02:19:10] All that I'm just saying there's all this stuff on the website.
[02:19:13] Origin main.com.
[02:19:14] Get all this stuff.
[02:19:15] The hoodie, the geese, the rash guards, sweatpants, other stuff.
[02:19:20] A lot of cool stuff on there.
[02:19:21] Check it out.
[02:19:22] You want something?
[02:19:23] Get something.
[02:19:24] Also, the immersion camp.
[02:19:26] Do you just a camp?
[02:19:27] Boom.
[02:19:28] Just got a message from someone from Florida.
[02:19:30] Young lady from Florida saying it.
[02:19:32] Saying, I want to go to the immersion camp.
[02:19:35] But I won't know anyone there.
[02:19:37] And you know, they're just.
[02:19:39] They only won from Florida.
[02:19:40] What do you think?
[02:19:41] Hey, you know me kind of.
[02:19:43] I guess if you've sent me the message sure, you know me.
[02:19:45] Probably no chocolate too.
[02:19:46] Well, if you know echo you know me and that means you know they're Burke.
[02:19:49] No three of us.
[02:19:50] Three people already.
[02:19:51] We're all right.
[02:19:52] Rolling.
[02:19:53] And here's the good thing where when you go there, we technically sure
[02:19:57] new each other and you new Pete.
[02:19:59] That was the first time I met Pete.
[02:20:01] I met probably what?
[02:20:04] Like the first 15 minutes.
[02:20:07] We met about 20 people.
[02:20:10] Yeah.
[02:20:11] And we hung out with those 20 people plus the other people you meet over the days, the whole time.
[02:20:16] He wasn't the kind like, oh, I don't really know that.
[02:20:18] And I'm hanging over here and there over there.
[02:20:20] It wasn't.
[02:20:21] It's not like that.
[02:20:22] You ever heard of those like dating sites?
[02:20:24] No, seriously.
[02:20:25] You put in like match.
[02:20:26] Well, you look at it.
[02:20:27] Okay.
[02:20:28] So I grew up before dating sites.
[02:20:29] Or I got married before dating sites.
[02:20:30] So I was just like, do the game back in the day.
[02:20:33] Like you got to go to a place where you can hopefully meet a girl.
[02:20:36] Right?
[02:20:37] The odds of meeting a girl are not the girl that you like and that has some sort of remotely similar interest.
[02:20:43] You go into a bar of the hundred girls in there and like you're lucky if there's one of them there that's remotely interested in what you're interested in.
[02:20:49] And you can connect.
[02:20:50] Then you got to meet them.
[02:20:51] You got to go up and talk to them all the stuff.
[02:20:52] It's real hard.
[02:20:53] Then they made the match dating things online where you put in your stuff.
[02:20:58] Yeah.
[02:20:59] And then you meet that one person.
[02:21:01] And you connect with them and you have all these things in common.
[02:21:04] This situation, you think about it.
[02:21:06] You're actually just going into a place where everyone's into the same thing that you're into.
[02:21:09] It's like walking to a bar and everyone likes the same stuff.
[02:21:12] Right.
[02:21:12] Like you get to and wants to train and wants to hang out.
[02:21:15] And that's that's what makes it cool.
[02:21:17] Yeah.
[02:21:18] Yeah.
[02:21:18] No dating typically.
[02:21:20] But hey, yeah.
[02:21:21] Yeah.
[02:21:22] It's a good point.
[02:21:23] Everyone kind of.
[02:21:24] You kind of converge on the topic of.
[02:21:28] You get to and then kind of everything else.
[02:21:30] It's what it really seemed like to meet.
[02:21:32] And then everything spends back to you.
[02:21:34] Yeah.
[02:21:35] Yeah.
[02:21:36] It's good fun.
[02:21:37] So my input is to go.
[02:21:40] That's what I think.
[02:21:41] I think go.
[02:21:42] When it now go.
[02:21:43] It's going.
[02:21:44] I'm going.
[02:21:45] Life is going.
[02:21:46] Good.
[02:21:47] Confirmed.
[02:21:48] JPE's considering.
[02:21:49] Oh, go.
[02:21:50] Help probably end up going.
[02:21:51] Yeah.
[02:21:52] So it will be a little.
[02:21:53] EF reunion tour of the shoes.
[02:21:57] It's a boy.
[02:21:58] Yep.
[02:21:59] Great.
[02:22:00] And when you go there knowing zero.
[02:22:01] You'll leave there not only knowing more people, but they'll be kind of your friends.
[02:22:05] I will guarantee you'll have more actual friends after you leave guaranteed.
[02:22:09] This is too.
[02:22:10] To the lady that.
[02:22:11] That's what I think.
[02:22:12] That's what I think.
[02:22:13] That's good.
[02:22:14] That's good.
[02:22:15] And even if you will know some people there, I say go to because you can't immerse yourself in.
[02:22:20] You get to best with a learn.
[02:22:21] And you know, let's face it.
[02:22:23] You're in Maine.
[02:22:24] It's a bunch of lobster.
[02:22:25] They served lobster.
[02:22:27] Yeah.
[02:22:28] That was one of the highlights of my opinion.
[02:22:30] Anyway, yeah.
[02:22:31] So it is on August 26 through September 2nd.
[02:22:34] Two sessions.
[02:22:35] Go to both if you want.
[02:22:36] But yeah.
[02:22:37] Two sessions.
[02:22:38] There you go.
[02:22:39] All levels.
[02:22:40] Also for fitness gear.
[02:22:42] Going to on it.com slash jockel.
[02:22:44] They got kettlebells, battle ropes.
[02:22:46] Jump ropes.
[02:22:47] All kinds of stuff.
[02:22:48] Good stuff.
[02:22:49] Very up your workout.
[02:22:50] Get some new gear.
[02:22:51] It'll actually get you more in the mood to do a workout when that gear comes in.
[02:22:55] I guarantee that.
[02:22:56] Well, I don't know if I can guarantee that.
[02:22:58] But that's how it was for me when I got the jump rope.
[02:23:00] Then all of a sudden I'm a jump rope.
[02:23:02] It seems like it's good.
[02:23:04] Anyway, a lot of cool stuff on there.
[02:23:05] A lot of good information on there too.
[02:23:07] By the way, if you're beginning kettlebells or you're beginning other workout movements
[02:23:13] and you want to know some tips and even some nutrition stuff.
[02:23:16] Really good.
[02:23:17] Anyway, go there on it.com slash jockel.
[02:23:19] Good way to support.
[02:23:20] Also, when you get the books that jockel reviews on this podcast, I organize them on jockelpodcast.com.
[02:23:26] On the top.
[02:23:27] You click on books from episodes and it takes you to the page.
[02:23:33] And it has.
[02:23:34] That's right.
[02:23:35] You guessed it.
[02:23:36] The books by the app is for on the episodes by episodes.
[02:23:40] You see what I'm saying.
[02:23:41] Anyway, click on there.
[02:23:42] Takes you Amazon.
[02:23:43] You can shop.
[02:23:44] Get your books.
[02:23:45] Whatever else you want from Amazon.
[02:23:46] Your batteries or.
[02:23:48] Don't take whatever.
[02:23:49] Keep shopping.
[02:23:50] Do you.
[02:23:51] Also.
[02:23:52] Good way to support is to subscribe to the podcast if you haven't already.
[02:23:55] Stitcher.
[02:23:56] iTunes.
[02:23:57] Google Play.
[02:23:58] Spotify.
[02:24:00] You subscribe on Spotify.
[02:24:01] I just know.
[02:24:02] I've been to Spotify.
[02:24:04] There's a lot more apps for podcasts now.
[02:24:07] Yeah.
[02:24:08] And I think I'm going to explore some of them too.
[02:24:09] Daily.
[02:24:10] Yeah.
[02:24:11] I'm like, smell some of them.
[02:24:12] Come to daily.
[02:24:13] Yeah.
[02:24:14] Well, either way, the point there is to change their thing.
[02:24:16] What do you mean?
[02:24:17] There's their layout or something.
[02:24:19] So now it pops up different.
[02:24:21] Everything's different now.
[02:24:22] It's interesting.
[02:24:23] It's interesting.
[02:24:26] I know.
[02:24:27] It's like you ever realize when you the layout of something.
[02:24:29] So this is a big thing on Facebook.
[02:24:30] When do you get on Facebook?
[02:24:31] Did you remember?
[02:24:32] 2014.
[02:24:34] 14.
[02:24:35] Dang.
[02:24:36] That's that's pretty.
[02:24:37] It's a requirement for school.
[02:24:38] Okay.
[02:24:39] There you go.
[02:24:40] So were you in on Facebook when they kind of changed the layout of Facebook from something
[02:24:46] to something to like news feed?
[02:24:47] Like a jockey.
[02:24:48] Oh, jockey doesn't know anything.
[02:24:49] What?
[02:24:50] You know what I'm talking about at all, huh?
[02:24:52] No, I didn't get on Facebook for until probably like 2000.
[02:24:55] I was might have been on, but I didn't actively do anything on it
[02:24:58] till like maybe a year ago.
[02:25:00] Yeah.
[02:25:01] Okay.
[02:25:02] So maybe a year and a half.
[02:25:03] So the layout of Facebook was like, you know, you had your profile picture
[02:25:06] and I even, I'm just trying to remember what it was.
[02:25:08] It was like, I don't even remember what it was.
[02:25:10] But it was like, I think like your wall or something like that
[02:25:14] where it's like your just your own stuff.
[02:25:16] And then they all of a sudden switched it to this news feed situation.
[02:25:20] You know how like now it's like everyone's stuff that you're just,
[02:25:23] basically how it is now.
[02:25:24] They just switched it.
[02:25:25] And people were mad.
[02:25:27] It was like change their life.
[02:25:29] You know, they were pissed.
[02:25:30] That's what you sounded like when you just talked about the apples.
[02:25:34] You know, you had that same effect on your brain.
[02:25:37] Anyway, subscribe to the podcast what I'm saying.
[02:25:39] Regardless of the layout of any iTunes or any other applications that the layout has
[02:25:44] or has not changed.
[02:25:45] Good way to support.
[02:25:47] Also, whatever you do channel so subscribe to that.
[02:25:49] If you want and if you're interested in the video version of this podcast,
[02:25:53] you would, juggle looks like or Dave Burke.
[02:25:56] In this case, what he looks like, pretty handsome.
[02:25:58] I think as far as handsome goes or Colonel Tom Five.
[02:26:02] Yes.
[02:26:03] See what he looks like.
[02:26:04] Yeah, typically those are the ones that people want to see.
[02:26:07] You know, they want to see the guests.
[02:26:08] They want to see what they look like.
[02:26:09] They know what we look like.
[02:26:11] Yeah, they kind of already know.
[02:26:12] Except me, I guess they don't really know what I look like.
[02:26:14] Because it still do get hey, you don't look like how you sound.
[02:26:17] Right.
[02:26:18] You can look like how you sound.
[02:26:20] Like you look like how you sound.
[02:26:22] Jack.
[02:26:23] Same.
[02:26:24] Dave Burke looks how he sounds.
[02:26:25] But it's not a one-to-one.
[02:26:27] It's not a face to like your voice sounds like this.
[02:26:29] So your face is going to look like that.
[02:26:31] It's like your your voice sounds like this.
[02:26:33] So your face can look like this kind of real like this group.
[02:26:37] This little variety of faith possible faces.
[02:26:40] You're just saying that's how it works.
[02:26:42] But for you, your voice is not that.
[02:26:44] My face is outside of that group apparently.
[02:26:47] So if you're interested in that sort of thing,
[02:26:50] YouTube boons.
[02:26:51] Also have the excerpts on there.
[02:26:52] If you want, you know, some of the lessons that Jack will talk about.
[02:26:55] You know, you want to share them.
[02:26:56] They're they're condensed.
[02:26:57] Or actually they're not condensed.
[02:26:59] They're just taken out of there.
[02:27:01] You know, maybe little videos on there.
[02:27:03] Also enhance the excerpts to put some music on there.
[02:27:06] Make them more.
[02:27:07] Somebody asked for tracks.
[02:27:09] Enhanced excerpts in psychological warfare available on iTunes.
[02:27:13] So, um, does that make sense?
[02:27:16] Yeah, enhance the answers.
[02:27:17] In the end, I think that's why I'm for psychological warfare too.
[02:27:20] By the way, just why I agree.
[02:27:21] I agree.
[02:27:22] I agree on a lot of requests for things like that.
[02:27:24] I agree, but not from a personal interest standpoint,
[02:27:27] because the psychological warfare.
[02:27:29] One is still very effective.
[02:27:31] 100% effective for me.
[02:27:34] Now with tracks.
[02:27:35] Yeah.
[02:27:36] Which I will talk about after I talk about the fact that
[02:27:40] Jack was a store.
[02:27:41] It's called Jocco store.
[02:27:43] This is where you can get the T-shirts that say this will equals freedom like the one I'm wearing right now.
[02:27:47] Or the Jocco podcast shirt.
[02:27:49] Basic.
[02:27:50] But very nice.
[02:27:51] I want that date book is wearing right now.
[02:27:53] Also, Mr. where you tell me you got called out with the Jocco podcast t-shirt.
[02:27:57] Where was that?
[02:27:58] I'm wearing this exact shirt.
[02:27:59] I'm at Disney World with the family that's going to do these ago from across the way.
[02:28:03] I get a good evening echo.
[02:28:05] Yeah, that's the standard bona fides.
[02:28:07] Yeah, that standard bona fides is good evening echo.
[02:28:10] Very good.
[02:28:12] Yeah, looks good on you.
[02:28:13] Of course.
[02:28:14] And even if you want to win the Jocco as on now, the one that Jocco always has on right now.
[02:28:18] The one he has on right now and always has on.
[02:28:21] You see what I'm saying?
[02:28:22] Anyway, if you want that shirt going jocco store.com or if you want a hoodie or if you want a hat or if you want a rash guard.
[02:28:29] Anyway, just go in there.
[02:28:30] You can see, you know, if you want to support that way, there's a lot of cool stuff on there.
[02:28:33] If you want something, get something.
[02:28:35] It's called jocco store.com.
[02:28:37] Also, just like Jocco mentioned psychological warfare.
[02:28:41] Isn't it album with tracks?
[02:28:44] Basically, these tracks are each track.
[02:28:46] You can get these on iTunes by the way.
[02:28:48] So, each track is Jocco telling you how to get past certain weaknesses that you might have.
[02:28:53] Might have on your campaign against weakness.
[02:28:58] So, you know, you're on the path, right?
[02:29:00] We're working out, we're waking up early, some of us.
[02:29:02] And, you know, we're reading more, whatever we're doing.
[02:29:05] Sometimes you don't want to do that.
[02:29:06] You don't do that every day.
[02:29:07] You just don't feel like it on some days, but you still should do it.
[02:29:10] We all know that.
[02:29:11] It's something that you don't feel like it.
[02:29:12] So, you're about to skip the workout.
[02:29:13] Boom, you listen to a certain track.
[02:29:15] Jocco will tell you why you shouldn't skip the workout.
[02:29:17] And it's effective.
[02:29:18] You won't skip the workout.
[02:29:19] Take it from me.
[02:29:20] I know 100% from experience.
[02:29:22] So, what it is, get it on iTunes.
[02:29:24] Check.
[02:29:26] You know, also speaking of subscribing?
[02:29:28] I have another podcast now.
[02:29:31] Yeah, it's called the Warrior Kid Podcast.
[02:29:33] Good one.
[02:29:34] Yeah.
[02:29:35] Uncle Jake has lessons.
[02:29:37] The name of the podcast is Warrior Kid Ask Uncle Jake.
[02:29:40] Uncle Jake answers questions from little Warrior kids around the world.
[02:29:45] And you can get that.
[02:29:47] Play it for your kids.
[02:29:48] There's no foul language.
[02:29:49] There's no talk about the me lie massacre.
[02:29:52] It's totally separate to your kids.
[02:29:54] And we'll get stumble upon something that they shouldn't be listening to that they're not ready for yet.
[02:29:59] So, you can check that out.
[02:30:00] Also, Jocco White Tea is available on Amazon.
[02:30:04] And if you're going to order it, we'll then go ahead and just go ahead and order some more weights for your barbell too, because you're going to need them.
[02:30:12] You need about 8,000 pounds worth.
[02:30:15] And that's the minimum guaranteed deadlift.
[02:30:18] Also, there's cans of white tea coming soon.
[02:30:20] They're going to be here in June.
[02:30:21] They're going to be available on Amazon in June.
[02:30:24] Victory in a can.
[02:30:25] Yes.
[02:30:26] Certified organic.
[02:30:28] Never thought you'd hear me say that.
[02:30:30] That's not.
[02:30:31] Yeah.
[02:30:32] Certified organic.
[02:30:33] We're going to get rid of all the horrible energy drinks that are out there, making people sick.
[02:30:40] And we're going to place with Jocco White Tea, which is 8,000 pounds of pure power.
[02:30:47] Let me ask you this.
[02:30:48] Yes.
[02:30:49] About Jocco White Tea.
[02:30:50] Would you consider making the micro dose or a version that doesn't have just a micro dose of caffeine?
[02:30:56] But if you drink the, no, probably not.
[02:30:59] No more caffeine.
[02:31:00] No.
[02:31:01] The Jocco White Tea can.
[02:31:03] I think it's two servings.
[02:31:05] And I think it's 30 grams.
[02:31:06] I'll confirm that.
[02:31:07] Yeah.
[02:31:08] I shouldn't have said it.
[02:31:09] I don't think we've ever considered making like another, another version in the future or anything like that.
[02:31:14] Something with more Jocco White Tea.
[02:31:15] High person.
[02:31:16] I don't know.
[02:31:20] I don't think so.
[02:31:21] Okay.
[02:31:22] I don't think so.
[02:31:22] Because if you want more, you can drink more.
[02:31:26] Yeah, man.
[02:31:27] Or go get something.
[02:31:28] You know, something that's going to make you all drink it.
[02:31:30] That's fine.
[02:31:31] Okay.
[02:31:32] Books weigh the warrior kid.
[02:31:34] Series.
[02:31:35] It's a series of books.
[02:31:36] By the way, there's two of them right now.
[02:31:38] There'd be more.
[02:31:39] I got a, I got a note on.
[02:31:43] Social media.
[02:31:45] And it was from an eight year old warrior kid named Addison.
[02:31:49] And she wrote this.
[02:31:50] Dear Mr. Willink.
[02:31:52] I absolutely love your book.
[02:31:54] Way of the warrior kid.
[02:31:55] I think it's the best book ever.
[02:31:58] You know what I'm saying?
[02:32:00] It taught me about discipline and commitment.
[02:32:03] Now, every day I train before school and trust me, it helps a lot.
[02:32:08] Your friend Addison.
[02:32:09] So there you go.
[02:32:10] Listen to Addison.
[02:32:12] Pick up the way the warrior kid and pick up Mark's mission.
[02:32:14] The second book.
[02:32:15] So your kids can get stronger.
[02:32:17] Smarter.
[02:32:18] Faster and overall.
[02:32:20] If you want to support a particular warrior kid, that's all in the move.
[02:32:25] Making things happen.
[02:32:26] Go to Irish Oaks Ranch.com.
[02:32:29] Get some soap made by Aiden.
[02:32:30] Warrior kid.
[02:32:31] Warrior kid with his own business.
[02:32:34] He makes Jocquoise hope on his farm.
[02:32:37] So you can stay clean.
[02:32:39] Don't forget about the discipline.
[02:32:41] He equals a freedom field manual.
[02:32:43] I met a trooper up in Yosemite.
[02:32:45] I was up in Yosemite.
[02:32:46] This was, I guess it was last summer.
[02:32:48] And you know, we just started talking.
[02:32:51] And I'm like, I was what you doing up here.
[02:32:53] And he was like, I'm up here to get my mind right.
[02:32:55] I was like, yeah, yeah.
[02:32:57] I don't know.
[02:32:58] I got kind of fired up, you know.
[02:32:59] Get my mind right.
[02:33:01] And that's the thing.
[02:33:04] That's the thing that you kind of got to do sometimes.
[02:33:07] Get your mind right.
[02:33:09] This one equals freedom field manual.
[02:33:11] It'll help get your mind right.
[02:33:14] They'll help get your mind right.
[02:33:17] Yeah.
[02:33:18] It'll help get your body right, too.
[02:33:20] By the way, if you get some of those deaf core workouts going for sure.
[02:33:24] If you want to listen to it, instead of read it or in addition to reading it,
[02:33:29] you have to do the audio version.
[02:33:31] Not audible books.
[02:33:32] It's not on there.
[02:33:34] It's available on Amazon Music iTunes, Google Play, other MP3 platforms.
[02:33:40] This one equals freedom field manual.
[02:33:42] Meditate on that.
[02:33:43] Also, for leadership, extreme ownership, combat leadership for the battlefield for business and life.
[02:33:48] And now you can order the follow on book to extreme ownership.
[02:33:51] It's called the dichotomy of leadership.
[02:33:53] It's available for pre-order on Amazon Barnes and Noble, local bookstore, hit them up.
[02:33:59] It'll be out September 25th.
[02:34:01] If you want to get one of those first editions, if you're a, if you're a book person,
[02:34:06] that's into the books.
[02:34:07] You like to have that first edition.
[02:34:09] Order it.
[02:34:11] If you need backup with your team from a leadership perspective, whatever business you're in or whatever.
[02:34:17] Leadership situation you're in, you need some support.
[02:34:21] You can contact my leadership and management consulting company.
[02:34:25] It's called National Unfront.
[02:34:26] It's me, Wavebab and JP to now.
[02:34:29] Dave Verk is in the game.
[02:34:31] The website is at www.satellonfront.com.
[02:34:34] We solve problems through leadership.
[02:34:38] That's it.
[02:34:40] That's how problems could solve in any organization.
[02:34:43] Not some.
[02:34:45] We're looking at a spreadsheet.
[02:34:52] Sure, we'll assess those.
[02:34:53] That's not where the problem's going to solve, though.
[02:34:55] We might identify a problem there.
[02:34:56] The problem is leadership.
[02:34:58] The problem in your organization is leadership.
[02:35:01] We'll fix it.
[02:35:02] That's what we do.
[02:35:03] Of course, we got the master.
[02:35:05] We're in DC right now for the master.
[02:35:08] It sold out and they all sell out.
[02:35:11] There's one more master in 2018.
[02:35:15] Master 006 in San Francisco October 17th and 18th.
[02:35:18] You registered extremotorship.com.
[02:35:20] Like I said, it is going to sell out.
[02:35:23] If you want to come register now,
[02:35:26] also for current military law enforcement firefighters,
[02:35:29] paramedics, other first responders.
[02:35:32] We got the role call 001.
[02:35:35] September 21st in Dallas, Texas.
[02:35:37] It's a one day.
[02:35:38] Leadership training seminar that's specific to dynamic and hostile environments.
[02:35:45] Things like fires, things like combat, things like high speed pursuit,
[02:35:52] chases.
[02:35:54] That's what it's about.
[02:35:55] You can register for that as well at extremotorship.com.
[02:35:59] And until we see you at the master, we're at the roll call or at the immersion camp in Maine.
[02:36:05] You want to communicate with us and hang out virtually.
[02:36:09] You can find us on the interwebs.
[02:36:12] What's yours, Dave?
[02:36:14] David R. Burke.
[02:36:15] At Dave R. Burke.
[02:36:17] Dave R. Burke.
[02:36:19] As you're the R on there.
[02:36:20] Is your Twitter handle?
[02:36:21] Yep.
[02:36:22] Your Twitter call sign.
[02:36:24] That's it.
[02:36:25] I might have snagged a good deal, Dave.
[02:36:28] Just to make sure nobody else has it.
[02:36:30] I might have grabbed that nicely done.
[02:36:33] Echo is at Echo Charles and I am at Jocca Willink and to all the military personnel out there.
[02:36:42] Standing the global watch for evil.
[02:36:48] Thank you.
[02:36:49] And to the families of those men and women that are also serving and also sacrificing.
[02:36:56] Thank you for what you do to the first responders out there.
[02:37:00] Police law enforcement firefighters, paramedics.
[02:37:03] Thanks for standing by to get some at all times.
[02:37:07] And also thanks to your families as well.
[02:37:11] And to everyone else that's out there with us.
[02:37:17] Facing whatever you're facing.
[02:37:20] Life challenges, struggles, pain, suffering, uncertainty.
[02:37:26] Look at the past.
[02:37:29] Look at the guy like Tom five.
[02:37:30] Look what he's been through.
[02:37:31] See what men and women have gone through.
[02:37:34] What they've been subjected to and how over and over and over again.
[02:37:39] We see human beings that rise against and they overcome.
[02:37:46] To keep putting one foot in front of the other.
[02:37:50] Keep fighting to move forward and keep getting after it.
[02:37:56] And until next time, this is Dave and Echo and Jockel out.