Jocko Podcast 124 w/ General James "Mook" Mukoyama

2018-05-09T19:26:57Z

Join the conversation on Twitter/Instagram: @jockowillink @echocharles 0:00:00 - Opening 0:06:00 - General James Mukoyama. 0:27:02 - Escalation in Vietnam. 1:02:08 - General Hackworth. 2:44:47 - Final Thoughts and take-aways. 2:52:37 - Support:  JockoStore stuff, Super Krill Oil and Joint Warfare and Discipline Pre-Mission, THE MUSTER 005 in DC. Origin Brand Apparel and Jocko Gi, with Jocko White Tea,  Onnit Fitness stuff, and Psychological Warfare (on iTunes). Extreme Ownership (book), Way of The Warrior Kid 2: Marc's Mission, The Discipline Equals Freedom Field Manual, and Jocko Soap. 3:25:01 - Closing Gratitude.

AI summary of episode

I mean, this, you know, Hac worth was just, you know, he always said, you know, he wasn't bald like today, you know, but you know, eighth of an inch, you know, razor sharp, you know, sides and all that. you got issues why that's how what are you doing even 11 o'clock at night because like I don't really start eating till like later in the day you say I don't know he breakfast like that you see him playing though like let's say he eat three meals a day and that's not a lot by the way that's actually a little bit you know some guys it all it's six times a day you know that kind not like that kind three times a day sometimes too so let's say I ate my first meal no breakfast only water maybe some coffee sometimes maybe some get ready sometimes maybe like a banana sometimes not a lot nonetheless at noon ish one maybe too lunch dinner You know, they said, you have an interest called this number, you know, and so I called, you know, and he said, hey, look, pull up my record, you know, you'll see, you know, I'm, I've got my masters degree in Fari Senefers. so right then and there the army knew what they were dealing with because I you know I was you know it was an opportunity to show that we have equal opportunity and he armed forces I tell people that one of the proudest things of my service was that when I was loose track of people's race you know I stopped looking at people as as Asian American or African American and in or Hispanic Americans I looked at them as private or full lieutenant whatever their job was in the military that's how I caught myself forgetting sometimes of people you know because I tell people everybody was all of drab. And, you know, I mean, the stupid rules of engagement that we had, you know, where do you have to get approval to fire on people, even though you're receiving fire, you know, and just nutty stuff, you know, and we just say, hey, you know, we're going to do what we have to do. so we have different programs that they can choose from some are as simple as a church can list the names of service members who are currently serving you know either relatives or members of the church and people can pray for them prayer is so important when you're overseas especially in a combat situation I know it helped me a lot when I was in combat I needed all I could get I'll tell you but also they could do things like send packages send letters how today who writes letters nobody you know it's all email and all that stuff how about getting a letter right at mail call how need is that you know we're on the path all of us one great now this is inevitable I think for the most part inevitable where you know hit moments of weakness sometimes you need a little help through those moments of weakness sometimes you need to just slip in those moments of weakness and fall and be like I'm not doing that again sometimes that's useful you learn in my opinion but in those moments of weakness where you just need a little spot this is what jockel tracks are for so let's say your weakness is not getting up early you want to hit the snooze so what you want to do to tie it on a note whatever maybe drink a little bit I don't know so you're on the fence you're like I'm gonna hit the snooze just for what what's the normal snooze 10 minutes nine minutes whatever I don't know seems to be good to tell me about that there's a mud over here it's true rotten and so you're balancing all that stuff and general Levine always remember emphasized the family he always made sure that we were aware of the stresses on the family you know when we were gone I'll never forget a microrear without fail that's when the furnace would break down that's when we'd have a blizzard so my 95 pound wife would have to go out there and shovel the snow because I wasn't there you know our son Jay who's who you know he he basically was a rascal when he was a young guy and my might have to take him to the emergency room in the hospital like three times I don't even know where it's time's a week You know, in my mind, you know, I thought everyone must look at Hac like, you know, this guy's Mr. Infantry as you put it, but I also would say to myself, well, you know, here's like, I'm thinking that because he wrote these books, and because I studied him, but that was an actual thing. he I think he's personally responsible for that balance part of my leadership concept that I've developed over my career uh he really emphasized family and and keep in mind when I joined the reserves I didn't have a clue about the citizen soldier you know those of us on air to duty what do we know about the garden reserves and their pressure you know what they do with you know people in the garden reserves have to balance three balls at the same time You know, he always said, bring your kids, you know, some guys would say, no, just, you know, bring your wife or whatever, because my kids were fairly young, and then we're really young, they were maybe eight or nine, you know, at that time. I mean, you know, but, you know, it was pretty sharp in the way of warming, you know, for my did have, you know, my jump wings and my E, I have an expert infantryman's badge, okay? And so when he came to see the general, he walks into the headquarters, you know, I'm sitting behind his desk, he walks in, so I stand up, you know, I say welcome Colonel Hacourt to Fort Lewis, you know, the general will be with you in 10 minutes, you know, because he came early, right? and I said you know what it's sad that you're surprised at that because 50 years ago everybody knew that that's where they made stuff they made it up there and it all disappeared and now it's coming back and we're bringing it back I told this guy it's a spring in a back we're bringing back made effect we got what weaving material up there you know what that you don't even know what I'm talking about people's first instinct is like You know, because, you know, really with the name which degree, as you know, you know, it's great for preparing you to understand things. so he writes a memorandum for record that to the chief of staff at the army that went into my file that said you know I spoke to John Wilmingham I told him it was you know above his paid rate levels and he might get involved with you know things that went out of hand and all that and he basically told me that he was going to wear his uniform so people come to me and say you know what difference are you guys making two years ago all I could say was what were developing this network of partners and we're asking them to help you know in their communities which did make a difference by the way I mean we prevented some suicides we've helped people that needed stuff you know okay so open decided they have a show about Japan bashing so she said if anybody knows anyone you know the Japanese American community what might be a good you know person on this please let me know Because I always felt that I shouldn't be managing my own career, you know, and if I, if I did my job, that the army would, you know, I, I'd be treated, okay, you know, well, none of that ever happened, right? I believe his name was but he had flown over heat scene what was happening he flew back to base told the senior leadership this is what's going on in the ground the senior leadership radioed into the field and said stop killing people and they they literally instantly stopped they stopped the massacre just because a leader stepped up and said stop so good leadership completely changed the situation as it was ongoing and clearly if there would have been a better leader on the ground that was leading in the right way it never would have even started so you can see here from what Hacks saying the way he led and the way he treated unknown you know people and then the way that was carried out through the whole battalion that's another amazing testament to good leadership. so I said is this in order you know from you know the secretary or from the chief I don't care you know whoever's above me is this in order and he said well I can't tell you it's in order but when we came up with this program we have a tracking thing where we know how many veterans are being helped we know what's been collected and we know so now if somebody says what difference do you make okay since January of 2016 we have helped over 31,000 veterans we've collected over 750,000 items in fact I think it's over million though and valued at almost 2 million dollars and we have we just provided this month our 1000's bed and and I said hey wait a second you know I don't have one day of finance formal education I didn't know the difference between a stock and a bond you know must for less a stock option and he said don't worry about it I felt the army was going in the wrong direction when it came to leadership I thought that they were looking for managers and not commanders I was in some positions during my career right had access to officer deficiency reports and I could see were the ratings of the senior officers that lieutenant colonels and the battalion commanders were the tendency was to give the managers high ratings irrespective of their command abilities and and then my personal career was was not managed very well the hack worth hack worth wanted me to stay he knew I was I was thinking of resigning and the fact that's why he offered me the company because you know he thought that experience might turn things around you know I'll do it and that started out of 35 year career in financial services industry and I became a member of the New York Stock Exchange the Chicago Board Options Exchange I was very blessed I became part-owner of the company so that enabled me to devote all the time I did in the reserves that I did because I was part of the deal I made with my friend I said listen if you want me to join you I'm bringing the reserves with me and you have to understand you know if I'm called I'm going and if I'm in the reserves I'm going to give it a hundred percent you know but it's real flimsy a lot of the time you got on it a lot of information on there so get some as they say you know on it dot com slash jokko good way to support you want something get something also when you get these books that jokko reviews sometimes hack words books about face good one steel my shoulders hearts good on any of the books feel the need to get one hate to wear it organized all the books by episode jokko podcast dot com go jokko podcast dot com click on the top books from episodes boom I got them organized perfectly click through there get your book get whatever book you want to get two books get a leaf lyrg just continue to show just go just do your Amazon thing and you're all good good way to support also subscribe to the podcast if you haven't already on iTunes stature google play podcast pod being pod this podcast apps out there just subscribe to the podcast what i'm saying that's kind of the thing regardless of what podcast application you're using it's good way to support the review if you're in the mood just leave a review you know when you kind of think about it if you're not in the mood delivery review I don't even know if it's conducive delivery review or is it so I tried calling I couldn't get you know how this is you know I couldn't get through whatever well I have a very I had at that time a very influential journalist in Chicago his name was Irv Cupsinet who had a very famous if's called Cups column he used to interview presidents kings and queens political people you know at in Chicago at a restaurant and yeah because you don't want to run out I'm telling you it's junk when you're at out I run out before it's wack also discipline supplement called discipline it is a pre workout pre mission pre study pre take test pre cognitive enhancing supplements good this is a good one pre get after it and it tastes good interestingly you know jacco focused a lot on that taste good lemon lime etc etc make calories in this one I don't know not not okay the army reserve and army national guard are the so-called reserve components okay now the active army of course are the 24-7 that's their full-time job the army reserves are a federal force and the army reserves fall into the normal army chain of command the partner of the army we answer to the orders of the president okay army national guard does not fall into that chain of command nor do they be poured to the president they be poured to the governors of each state it's really a state organization although 95% of their budget comes from the federal government so in their mind I'm the village idiot you know even though I have my masters degree I had commanded a company in combat I had signed for $10 million worth of equipment I had more responsibility and life than these guys will ever know you know

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Episode transcript

[00:00:00] This is Jockel Podcast number 124.
[00:00:04] With echo Charles and me, Jockel Willick.
[00:00:07] Good evening, Echo.
[00:00:08] Good evening.
[00:00:11] Bullets punched through the chopper as Nevanide jumped out.
[00:00:17] Together, we ran over to the farthest wounded guy, grabbed him, ran back and tossed him into the bird.
[00:00:24] We picked up a second wounded in action the same way, and then a third.
[00:00:29] Amazingly, without becoming casualties ourselves.
[00:00:33] But by the time everyone was loaded onto the helicopter, there was no room inside for me.
[00:00:39] I stood on the skids and put on my helmet so I could tell the pilot to take off.
[00:00:44] But I found I couldn't talk.
[00:00:46] I was so dried out, my tongue had welded itself to the roof of my mouth out of pure fear.
[00:00:54] I had to open my canteen and drink some water before I could even gasp.
[00:00:58] Let's get this mother out of here.
[00:01:02] We took the wounded back to base and returned to the flight.
[00:01:06] Without anything holding him up now, I couldn't figure out why Torpy didn't do something
[00:01:12] about getting his men consolidated outside of that patty.
[00:01:18] He still kept saying he was pinned down.
[00:01:20] Finally, I lost my temper.
[00:01:22] I really chewed his ass over the radio, demanding he get cracking and get those men out
[00:01:26] of that patty now.
[00:01:28] Apparently the next thing he did was put down the radio, stand straight up and begin running
[00:01:37] from man to man to get them to move back.
[00:01:43] He got mode down right away and died a short time later.
[00:01:50] Maybe I hadn't learned a damn thing at my con.
[00:01:54] Or from Dennis Foley's near miss in that mine field.
[00:01:59] I hadn't asked Torpy to stand up.
[00:02:02] He didn't need to in order to extricate himself, but it hadn't occurred to me that he would.
[00:02:09] I had been playing the game as if Lieutenant Nap, a lat natural more seasoned leader was
[00:02:14] in charge.
[00:02:17] It was due to the force of my word as his commander that this inexperienced young lieutenant
[00:02:24] was sent to his death, like Jim Gardner's.
[00:02:30] Torpy's death was a big guilt thing for me and has remained so all my life.
[00:02:42] And that is an excerpt from the book about face, which is by Colonel David Hackworth,
[00:02:52] the book that we covered on this podcast.
[00:02:54] In fact, it was the first book we covered on this podcast and there is a reason for that.
[00:03:02] The book about face was and is my favorite book.
[00:03:09] And when I was deployed to a modian 2006, I read it and re-read it every chance I got.
[00:03:17] Now, the book is about war, but I have always found it to be a book about leadership
[00:03:25] and in my opinion, the best book I have ever read about leadership.
[00:03:32] David Hackworth was born and raised in California, lied about his age and joined the
[00:03:36] Marcha Marines and served in the South Pacific in the end of World War II.
[00:03:42] And then he joined the army where he rose through the ranks, serving in the Korean war
[00:03:47] and the Vietnam War, battlefield commissioned.
[00:03:53] Novers' career in combat, he was awarded to Distinguished Service Crosses 8 Silver Stars,
[00:03:57] three legions of merit, a distinguished fine cross, and eight purple hearts.
[00:04:07] And in the end, he became an outspoken opponent of how we were fighting the war in Vietnam
[00:04:17] and that costume his career in the army.
[00:04:22] He went on to write these books and was able to pass on the lessons that he learned
[00:04:28] through these books about face, which as I said, we covered on podcast number two.
[00:04:33] We also wrote a book called The Steel My Soldiers Heart, which is covered on podcast 28.
[00:04:42] And unfortunately he died on May 4th, 2005, before I ever got the chance to meet him.
[00:04:54] But a few months ago someone reached out to me on social media, someone by the name
[00:05:00] of Jay Mukayama.
[00:05:04] And he was a listener to the podcast and he thought I might be interested in talking
[00:05:08] to his father, James Mukayama.
[00:05:12] The name looked pretty familiar.
[00:05:15] I thought I recognized it and I quickly realized that this was the full name of one of
[00:05:21] the men that appeared in both books about face and steel my soldiers heart.
[00:05:27] The man Colonel Hacworth simply called Muk.
[00:05:32] And I replied to Jay and said I would be absolutely honored to be introduced to his father
[00:05:39] who was in fact, Major General James Mukayama, a retired army officer that had served as
[00:05:46] a company commander in Vietnam working directly for Colonel Hacworth.
[00:05:54] After some logistical coordination, it is my absolute honor to welcome General James Mukayama
[00:06:04] to the podcast.
[00:06:06] Sir, this is an absolute honor.
[00:06:09] Well, Jocco, it is the same on this side.
[00:06:14] I've listened to some of your podcasts, especially the one on steel my soldiers hearts.
[00:06:20] And I couldn't stop listening to it.
[00:06:23] And then I realized I looked at my watch and I said, this is over two hours already.
[00:06:29] Just because of the way you picked out the really important things that Hacworth, in fact,
[00:06:39] I forgot a lot of the things until you read verbatim, some of the things that he said.
[00:06:47] And he lived what he wrote.
[00:06:48] I might add.
[00:06:50] He loved by example.
[00:06:53] Well, I definitely have taken a ton of lessons from him over the years and that's why it's
[00:06:58] just amazing to be sitting here with you.
[00:07:00] And let's talk about you though.
[00:07:02] Let's talk about how you ended up in the army and where you came from and what your background
[00:07:06] was.
[00:07:07] You know, once you take us back to Chicago.
[00:07:10] Sure.
[00:07:12] I was born and raised in the inner city of Chicago, a neighborhood called Logan Square, primarily
[00:07:18] Polish German Italian.
[00:07:21] We were the only minority family in that neighborhood.
[00:07:25] We went to a grammar school of 900, my brother and I were the only minorities.
[00:07:31] So I grew up basically in a phenomenally white white environment.
[00:07:37] But I never felt like I was different really because everybody treated me fun.
[00:07:43] It was a time in life in the inner city where everybody knew each other.
[00:07:47] On our neighborhood, our block, we didn't lock our doors.
[00:07:51] Everybody knew that's a time when most mothers stayed at home.
[00:07:58] And they were the police of the block.
[00:08:01] Everybody would come by the was out of order.
[00:08:05] They would take care of it.
[00:08:06] But we were, I'd say, lower middle class economically.
[00:08:12] We never owned a home.
[00:08:14] We always lived in an apartment building.
[00:08:17] My father was an immigrant from Japan.
[00:08:20] My mother was her family from Japan.
[00:08:24] But she was actually born in Madison, Wisconsin.
[00:08:28] And so my grandparents lived with us.
[00:08:31] We all three generations in the same apartment.
[00:08:36] I never felt poor.
[00:08:38] Because we had a strong family.
[00:08:42] Our church was only three blocks away from our apartment building.
[00:08:47] Every Sunday, we put on our Sunday best clothes.
[00:08:50] And we would walk as a family to church.
[00:08:53] Now it's interesting.
[00:08:54] You said your dad had immigrated from Japan.
[00:08:56] And your mom was born in Wisconsin.
[00:08:59] Was your mom not, didn't your mom get put in the internment camps with her family during World War II?
[00:09:04] No, no, no.
[00:09:05] Here's the thing.
[00:09:07] My father came to the states in 1918.
[00:09:10] In fact, that was kind of a funny thing.
[00:09:13] He was going to sign up for World War I, which was still going on.
[00:09:18] But then it ended.
[00:09:20] So he couldn't sign up.
[00:09:23] And then when World War II hit, he was too old.
[00:09:26] And plus he was a Japanese.
[00:09:29] I don't know if you know this or not.
[00:09:30] Japanese could not become citizens.
[00:09:33] Naturalized citizens, that would be United States until 1952.
[00:09:39] And so he was still a Japanese citizen.
[00:09:46] But he was in Chicago.
[00:09:47] My family was in Chicago.
[00:09:49] My mother and father, my brother.
[00:09:51] I wasn't born, I was born during World War II.
[00:09:55] And so we didn't have to go to camp.
[00:09:59] Mostly, the 95% of Japanese Americans at that time, or anyone of Japanese descent, lived
[00:10:06] on the West Coast in California, Oregon, Washington State, Colorado.
[00:10:13] And so when the war hit, Pearl Harbor hit, President Roosevelt signed executive order
[00:10:20] 906-6, which called for the all people of Japanese descent to be evacuated from the West
[00:10:29] Coast and put in concentration camps in the inner part of the country.
[00:10:35] Basically, in deserted desert areas.
[00:10:39] And these camps, they, you, for, basically, refer to them as relocation centers.
[00:10:45] But they were really, my, you know, your standard concentration camp with Bob Boyre
[00:10:50] Offences, with machine guns facing in, not out.
[00:10:55] And people not being able to come and go as they placed.
[00:10:58] 130,000 people of Japanese descent were put in these camps.
[00:11:04] The two thirds of them were American citizens, not aliens.
[00:11:10] Okay.
[00:11:11] And no trials, no, no, the only crime that they committed was the, the color of their skin
[00:11:20] and their fact that they were of Japanese descent.
[00:11:24] And so did your family avoid that because they were in Chicago?
[00:11:28] Yeah, but they were only like three or four hundred of us in Chicago at the time.
[00:11:33] And we weren't considered a threat, but my other, the rest of my family, my grandparents,
[00:11:38] my mother's side and my cousins and aunts and uncles, they were all in California.
[00:11:45] And they all got evacuated.
[00:11:48] Just imagine this, you're, it's a Friday night and you got a knock on your door.
[00:11:53] Okay.
[00:11:54] It's the local FBI agent.
[00:11:56] And he says, on Monday morning, be at the corner of Washington and State Street,
[00:12:02] with two suitcases and the communication.
[00:12:07] Okay.
[00:12:08] And you, you know, you don't have time to do hardly anything.
[00:12:11] And you, you know, you go there and then you're put on a train.
[00:12:16] You don't know where you're going.
[00:12:18] And you wind up in the camp and you're there for three years.
[00:12:22] Okay.
[00:12:23] So, let's say you're your owner of a small business.
[00:12:27] You lose the business.
[00:12:29] You no longer have a job, right?
[00:12:31] So you can't pay your mortgage and things like they lost, they lost everything.
[00:12:37] And now you're 18, let's say you're 18 years old.
[00:12:40] Okay.
[00:12:41] And this happens to your family, right?
[00:12:42] And the local Army recruiter comes to the camp and says, I want you to go down if you're
[00:12:47] a country.
[00:12:49] You know, frankly, Jocco, I don't know what I would have done.
[00:12:53] I might have told the guy to take a walk, you know, or you use other words.
[00:12:57] And yet, it's so many of them joined up.
[00:12:59] Absolutely.
[00:13:00] So, the 100th Patan in the 442nd.
[00:13:03] Regimental Conventing.
[00:13:04] That's right.
[00:13:05] And those guys fought with incredible bravery and had some critical battles that turned
[00:13:12] some, the tied and some critical situations as well.
[00:13:15] Yeah, they were the most highly decorated infantry unit in the history of the United States
[00:13:19] Army for its size and time of service.
[00:13:23] And they were a regimental combat team.
[00:13:25] Let's say about 4,500 soldiers because they had a, and are totally battalion and
[00:13:30] other things they were attached.
[00:13:32] Okay?
[00:13:33] In about 18 months of combat, they were awarded over 9,000 purple hearts.
[00:13:39] Some guys had 3 or 4, you know, and if not more.
[00:13:44] And, you know, the presidential unit citation, you're familiar with that award.
[00:13:50] There are Army divisions that never got that award.
[00:13:53] Okay?
[00:13:54] That regimental combat team was awarded 8 presidential unit citations.
[00:13:59] That's unbelievable.
[00:14:00] Yeah, they were my personal heroes.
[00:14:02] So that's, and that was to kind of get back to your question.
[00:14:05] That was one of the reasons that I wanted to join you Army.
[00:14:11] I was actually going to ask that.
[00:14:13] So, you know, you're sitting here saying, if you were in one of those camps, you don't
[00:14:15] know if you might have to tell them to go take a walk.
[00:14:18] But when your time came, you walked into the recruiters office.
[00:14:23] Not away from it.
[00:14:24] Yeah.
[00:14:25] Well, in my case, when I was in a country, I was in a country.
[00:14:29] In high school, as I told you, you know, a faith is a very strong part of my whole life.
[00:14:36] I've been so blessed in life, beyond anything I deserve.
[00:14:42] And so when I was our church, you know, we go to church every Sunday.
[00:14:46] I was in the choir.
[00:14:48] I was in cup scouts.
[00:14:50] I was in boy scouts.
[00:14:52] I was in the youth group.
[00:14:53] You know, all of this was centered around the church.
[00:14:56] You know, when I was in scouts, I went to the National Jam.
[00:14:59] I was in the library in Valley Forge, Pennsylvania with 52,000 of my best friends living
[00:15:05] in tents.
[00:15:07] But you know, that was, and what was the symbol of that jambri.
[00:15:12] George Washington at Valley Forge, kneeling in prayer.
[00:15:17] And the motto of scouting is for God and country.
[00:15:20] So that was really my motto.
[00:15:22] And then I was in a boy state.
[00:15:24] Are you familiar with boy state?
[00:15:26] No.
[00:15:27] The state is an American Legion program.
[00:15:30] Does it still exist?
[00:15:31] Yes.
[00:15:32] Yes.
[00:15:33] And it's been around probably for 50 years.
[00:15:36] Now, when I went, it was the 2050.
[00:15:38] Okay.
[00:15:39] So it's more than 50 years.
[00:15:40] And the concept of the boy state is they take junior, high school juniors, ready to go
[00:15:45] into senior year.
[00:15:48] And who are leaders, basically.
[00:15:52] And they form a quasi state government for two weeks.
[00:15:57] And they actually divide into two political parties.
[00:16:00] They don't call them Republicans.
[00:16:01] They request they call them something else.
[00:16:03] And they have state government, county government, and local city government.
[00:16:11] And you run for offices.
[00:16:13] And you actually have to come up with a platform and you debate.
[00:16:18] And so it's a lessen in civics.
[00:16:22] But it was sponsored by the American Legion.
[00:16:25] So we all lived in like dorms.
[00:16:27] And the dorms, we had to make our beds.
[00:16:29] So you could bounce a quarter on it.
[00:16:32] They were all army blankets, stuff, and cats.
[00:16:35] But it was wonderful.
[00:16:36] It was just a great experience.
[00:16:39] So when I was in high school, I was very active in my church.
[00:16:45] I'm kind of a German guy.
[00:16:48] And I was a president of my high school youth group at the church.
[00:16:54] And then I became the vice president of the Chicago Association.
[00:16:58] Did you play sports?
[00:17:00] No.
[00:17:01] Well, I was, no, I didn't.
[00:17:02] I was.
[00:17:03] And what about your grades?
[00:17:05] I was, I was Bell.
[00:17:06] I was too.
[00:17:07] It was my, of my grandma school and high school.
[00:17:10] And I was.
[00:17:11] They have valedictory and grammar school?
[00:17:12] Yeah.
[00:17:13] That shows you where how well I did in grammar school.
[00:17:15] I didn't even know that.
[00:17:16] And then I, I, I was in the band.
[00:17:19] I played clarinet and saxophone.
[00:17:21] So I was the first chair clarinet of the band.
[00:17:23] That was the principal woodwind in New Yorkous Dron.
[00:17:27] And so, but anyway, I was very active in my church youth group.
[00:17:32] And I was thinking of becoming a minister.
[00:17:35] Okay.
[00:17:36] But then I was in junior ROTC.
[00:17:39] And Chicago has the nation's largest junior ROTC program.
[00:17:44] About 30 high schools have it.
[00:17:46] And it's a great program.
[00:17:48] People misunderstand JROTC.
[00:17:50] They think it's a feeder for the military.
[00:17:53] Okay.
[00:17:54] I mean, some of them do go into the military.
[00:17:56] But that's not the purpose.
[00:17:58] The purpose is to give these high school students something other than gangs to belong to,
[00:18:05] to give them experience and leadership and discipline and teamwork.
[00:18:12] And it's a tremendous program.
[00:18:14] So I was in junior ROTC.
[00:18:16] Was, so it's that combined with your view of the, like the 442.
[00:18:24] Those things are kind of starting to congeal in your head and maybe move you towards a military.
[00:18:30] Yeah.
[00:18:31] And then in addition to that, I have just one sibling in older brother.
[00:18:35] He's about seven years older than I am.
[00:18:37] And he joined the army as an enlisted guy.
[00:18:41] But in the first year of college, he was in a military fraternity called Pershing Rifles,
[00:18:48] which other people like Colin Powell and some others have been in, including myself.
[00:18:53] When I went to the U of I.
[00:18:56] And you have to understand also that I'm Japanese American.
[00:19:01] In the Japanese culture, the warrior, the samurai, is at the top of the social strata.
[00:19:09] Unlike China, where the scholar was at the top in Japan, it's the warrior.
[00:19:15] So when I joined the military, when I became a commission officer, my dad was so proud,
[00:19:22] his small t-shirts swallowed the large.
[00:19:26] And when I became a general, it's like incredible.
[00:19:33] But I, so I want to do ROTC in college as a country.
[00:19:39] Yes, oh yes, I'm a driven guy, right?
[00:19:43] And I was, here's the thing though, as I told you, I was thinking becoming a minister.
[00:19:49] But then I also wanted to serve in the military.
[00:19:52] So what do you think I would do?
[00:19:54] Jappin?
[00:19:55] Jappin.
[00:19:56] It's a little problem.
[00:19:58] I'm Protestant.
[00:19:59] And my denomination, theologically, went so far away from what I believed in, that I couldn't
[00:20:08] buy the theology.
[00:20:10] So now I'm praying to God, right?
[00:20:12] And I'm saying, I get the message, I guess you want me to do my military thing.
[00:20:17] So that's what I did.
[00:20:19] Okay?
[00:20:20] But you fast forward, 50 years, 55 years.
[00:20:23] What am I doing today?
[00:20:25] I'm doing what I wanted to do when I was in high school, because I have military outreach
[00:20:29] USA, faith, faith, non-profit that I started.
[00:20:32] So it's a lesson in prayer.
[00:20:35] And that is, at that time, I thought God was telling me no.
[00:20:39] He wasn't telling me no.
[00:20:42] He was saying, wait, it's on my schedule.
[00:20:45] Not on your schedule.
[00:20:46] I mean, you know, I wasn't mature enough either as a military guy, nor as in my faith.
[00:20:52] So what year was it that you're showing up in college?
[00:20:56] 61.
[00:20:57] 61 started.
[00:20:58] So you do four years of college, it's 1965.
[00:21:01] Right.
[00:21:02] And I'm as really not escalated yet at that point.
[00:21:07] But did you think it was pretty hot at that time?
[00:21:09] And I basically, by that time, I was on the military thing, right?
[00:21:15] I wasn't going to be a champion anymore.
[00:21:17] So I was, I was in Persian rifles.
[00:21:20] I was on the rifle team.
[00:21:22] I was on the drill team.
[00:21:23] You know, if it smelled military, I was in.
[00:21:26] Okay?
[00:21:27] And then you have to remember, I had four years of high school, ROTC.
[00:21:30] Also before I went to Bennings.
[00:21:32] You're pretty good at your drill.
[00:21:34] I take it.
[00:21:35] I had.
[00:21:36] I mean, infantry, I OBC, infantry officers, basic course, peace of cave.
[00:21:41] I mean, I went through that.
[00:21:42] I was an honor graduate, my class.
[00:21:45] And in fact, this is really funny.
[00:21:46] My class, about 200 brand new, second lieutenant's, right?
[00:21:51] About a third of it was a national guard, about a third were reserves.
[00:21:57] And there were only a few of us that were regular Army.
[00:21:59] You see, I got a distinguished military graduate commission, regular Army infantry, right?
[00:22:05] And so very few of us were regular Army in my class.
[00:22:09] So our attitude was not really the best.
[00:22:11] Shall we say?
[00:22:12] And so we get the Benny.
[00:22:15] And they marched us to class.
[00:22:17] I mean, this was in, to us it was insane.
[00:22:20] We're second lieutenant's.
[00:22:22] This tell us where the building is.
[00:22:23] We'll get there, right?
[00:22:24] No, we had the march in formation.
[00:22:26] The army.
[00:22:27] So needless to say, the attitude was not real good with my company.
[00:22:32] So the day we graduated, they used to have a award, a streamer, that companies could put
[00:22:39] on their guide on.
[00:22:40] Those called the Tiger Tactics Award.
[00:22:43] This was really gung-ho companies, which ours was not needless to say.
[00:22:49] Well, the night before we stole or fumbling on their company.
[00:22:53] We put it on our guide on, so I'm graduation day.
[00:22:57] We march by the headquarters.
[00:22:59] And outcomes the commander, the guys live it.
[00:23:01] And you say, where do you guys get that?
[00:23:03] Oh, you know, it's just just a period.
[00:23:08] And we were graduating.
[00:23:09] That was the guy going to do to us, right?
[00:23:10] So we all graduated and that was it.
[00:23:13] So 1965, then you went to graduate school.
[00:23:19] Yeah, here's the thing.
[00:23:23] You know, I told you, we didn't have a lot of money for me to go to college.
[00:23:28] So I knew I had to earn it myself, right?
[00:23:31] So when I was in high school, on my senior year, I worked 33 hours a week.
[00:23:38] I worked from five till 10 o'clock at night at a warehouse in Chicago.
[00:23:43] And I worked eight hours on Saturday.
[00:23:46] So I could raise money.
[00:23:47] Okay, I also played in two bands.
[00:23:48] I told you I played for an atoness saxophone.
[00:23:51] I played in a Polish band for weddings.
[00:23:55] And that was so cool because by the third set, everybody was so blasted.
[00:23:58] Nobody cared.
[00:23:59] Right.
[00:24:00] And then by also played in a Jewish band.
[00:24:03] So I used to play for Barnetsvys.
[00:24:05] So I knew all the temples in Chicago.
[00:24:07] So I used to tell people, I had them coming.
[00:24:09] You're the way.
[00:24:11] And then I had to, you know, I took out two government loans.
[00:24:14] And that's the only way I could afford to go to school.
[00:24:18] And so 65 rules around.
[00:24:20] I graduated.
[00:24:21] And I find this interesting for a real obvious reason.
[00:24:25] You majored in English in college.
[00:24:28] Yeah, the reason I did that, Choco, was once again,
[00:24:31] you know, I'm pretty focused guy in my focus was on becoming
[00:24:37] the best officer I could be, the best leader I could be
[00:24:40] of infantry soldiers.
[00:24:42] And I knew I was going into combat, right?
[00:24:45] So as a freshman, I tried to determine,
[00:24:48] what am I going to major into preparing me for that.
[00:24:51] So I looked at psychology and I looked at English, not rhetoric,
[00:24:57] but English literature.
[00:24:59] I rejected psychology in my first year,
[00:25:01] because we had these classes with Pavlov and his dogs
[00:25:06] and all this stuff.
[00:25:07] And I was going through that and I said,
[00:25:09] what does this have to do with people?
[00:25:11] You know, I mean, I want to learn how to work with people.
[00:25:15] Well, literature, whether you read
[00:25:17] the whole continuum of every man or Shakespeare
[00:25:21] or Hemingway, if you read that stuff,
[00:25:25] there are universal traits of human nature that come out at you.
[00:25:29] And if you can understand it, you can realize
[00:25:32] what motivates people.
[00:25:34] Okay, so I, and then not only that,
[00:25:36] but if you read the best writers of all time,
[00:25:40] I just felt by sure us Moses,
[00:25:42] God, not the smartest guy, just by sure us Moses,
[00:25:46] I could absorb that and I could express myself better.
[00:25:49] So that's why I made you an English.
[00:25:51] And I've talked about that.
[00:25:52] I was an English major as well.
[00:25:53] And I was, I was, I was prior and listed.
[00:25:57] So I had been in for eight years and actually
[00:26:00] I'd been in for 10 years by the time I went to college
[00:26:03] and I knew right away I was going to be an English major
[00:26:06] and the reason I wanted to be an English major,
[00:26:07] because I had gotten commissioned and served two years
[00:26:09] in the in the seals before I went to college as an officer.
[00:26:13] And I realized you got to write everything.
[00:26:15] You got to read directives from people
[00:26:17] and you got to understand what they're saying.
[00:26:18] And then you got to communicate with your troops.
[00:26:20] And I wanted to do have a good command of the English language.
[00:26:23] The, the part that you talked about,
[00:26:25] the understanding of human nature was something
[00:26:27] that I saw once I got in and I started reading it.
[00:26:30] I started applying and thinking about what I was reading.
[00:26:32] And now this is something that I,
[00:26:34] that I advocate for everyone.
[00:26:36] To, if you want to really understand human nature,
[00:26:38] you got to read.
[00:26:39] Yeah, yeah.
[00:26:41] So I was, so when I was reading.
[00:26:43] What is your reading?
[00:26:45] You know, when I said that in 1965,
[00:26:48] the war, because I, what was it?
[00:26:50] What year was I drank?
[00:26:51] That was 1965, wasn't it?
[00:26:53] The battle of I drink.
[00:26:56] I think it was.
[00:26:57] I think it was 1965.
[00:27:00] I think it was.
[00:27:01] And you know, they kind of used that as,
[00:27:03] hey, this is when the real escalation started.
[00:27:06] And the reason I asked you that specifically is,
[00:27:09] because I've had some Vietnam vets on that were going to college in 1965.
[00:27:12] And they were like, they didn't even,
[00:27:13] hadn't even heard of Vietnam.
[00:27:14] At that point.
[00:27:15] So I guess it was because I was in ROTC,
[00:27:19] you know, I was kind of paying more attention.
[00:27:21] Yeah.
[00:27:22] And I knew I was going to the Benny.
[00:27:24] I mean, that was, four gone conclusion.
[00:27:26] And you knew you were going to combat as well.
[00:27:27] Oh yeah.
[00:27:28] That was your mind.
[00:27:29] Yeah, because that was my goal.
[00:27:31] Being infantry officers.
[00:27:33] You know, I mean, if I did, you know,
[00:27:34] that's, that to me was where I wanted to go.
[00:27:38] And so in 65, I got an offer to get an assistantship,
[00:27:45] you know, to be really a counselor in the dorm.
[00:27:50] But it's like I died and went to heaven
[00:27:51] because they paid for tuition and fees.
[00:27:55] And I got like a hundred bucks a month salary.
[00:27:57] Which to me was like,
[00:27:58] British guy in the world.
[00:27:59] Yeah, you know.
[00:28:00] But the important thing was I could get my master's degree.
[00:28:04] Okay. And by the way, I got it in a year.
[00:28:06] Because I went to summer school.
[00:28:08] And I just, I'm on the go on active duty.
[00:28:10] But this was a chance for me to go, you know,
[00:28:13] under the citizenship and not have to pay for it.
[00:28:16] But now the pragmatism kicks in for me.
[00:28:19] You know, because, you know, really with the name
[00:28:21] which degree, as you know, you know, it's great for preparing
[00:28:25] you to understand things.
[00:28:28] But, you know, that in 50 cents in those days
[00:28:32] will get me a cup of coffee.
[00:28:34] So I, and that, I knew I was going to go into combat.
[00:28:38] I knew I was going to be an infantry officer.
[00:28:40] And the odds of my perhaps getting wounded, you know,
[00:28:44] were fairly decent.
[00:28:46] So I needed to have a fallback, you know.
[00:28:49] And I wasn't in a count.
[00:28:50] And so I wasn't a CPA or, you know, something like that.
[00:28:53] So I got my masters in the teaching of social studies.
[00:28:57] So I could be a teacher.
[00:28:58] And, you know, you don't have to run the hundred yard dash
[00:29:00] to be a teacher.
[00:29:01] And so, and I, and teaching is a noble profession.
[00:29:04] And I always felt that, you know, it's something I could do
[00:29:09] if I got wounded and still contribute to society.
[00:29:13] And 70, or, you know, the 75% of your time
[00:29:16] is an officer or senior NCO is teaching.
[00:29:20] You know, so I figured I want to find out how to
[00:29:22] pro-stue it, allegedly.
[00:29:25] What I found out is the military has the best education
[00:29:28] system really does.
[00:29:30] You know, I didn't have to get my masters at green and history
[00:29:33] and philosophy of education at psych and all that stuff.
[00:29:37] No, didn't need it.
[00:29:39] So you wrap up, you get your masters degree.
[00:29:42] And now you know you're going to Vietnam.
[00:29:44] What happens is that when you graduate?
[00:29:46] Okay, so I go to Fort Bunny.
[00:29:48] I go to I OBC.
[00:29:49] I'm, you know, I'm an honor graduate with my class.
[00:29:51] So I didn't finish that story.
[00:29:53] This might, my, my class that I was in, you know, really bad
[00:29:57] attitude guys, right?
[00:29:59] And the day of graduation, they announced the honor graduates.
[00:30:03] Okay, I was in the third platoon.
[00:30:04] So first platoon, they announced the honor graduates in the platoon.
[00:30:08] Second platoon, they announced the honor graduates third platoon,
[00:30:12] which I am in.
[00:30:14] I'm the only guy who's an honor graduate out of my platoon.
[00:30:17] When they announced my name, everybody boo.
[00:30:21] Because I ruin our record right?
[00:30:24] So what happened is I volunteered for, I volunteered for,
[00:30:28] well, I was regular army.
[00:30:30] So I had to go airborne.
[00:30:32] I volunteered for Ranger school, but in those days, the West Pointers,
[00:30:36] all of those mandatory, they had to go to Ranger school.
[00:30:39] So I graduated the same time that the West Pointers did.
[00:30:43] They took up all the quotas.
[00:30:45] So I, I didn't, I couldn't get into Ranger school,
[00:30:48] but I had a solution.
[00:30:49] See, I'm always thinking, I was gonna,
[00:30:51] I applied for Pathfinder school.
[00:30:54] So I figured I'd go through Pathfinder school.
[00:30:56] I'd finish that.
[00:30:58] The West Pointers would be gone.
[00:30:59] I could slide into the next Ranger class, right?
[00:31:02] They didn't give me Pathfinder.
[00:31:04] So now I'm stuck, right?
[00:31:05] So I said, okay, I'm volunteering for Vietnam.
[00:31:09] And they sent me to Korea.
[00:31:11] So I was in the DMZ in Korea, which is really a god thing.
[00:31:15] I've gotta tell you this, because I was with the second ID
[00:31:18] on the DMZ and those days, you were assigned,
[00:31:21] and you stayed there for 13 months on the DMZ.
[00:31:24] And there was still active combat patrolling in...
[00:31:27] Oh, yeah.
[00:31:28] We'd take casualties during that time period.
[00:31:30] 13 months, I was there.
[00:31:32] We had 12KIA in about 40 wounded.
[00:31:35] Okay, so this was not a walk in the park.
[00:31:38] And it was a great experience for me,
[00:31:41] because in addition to, see, we were in the DMZ.
[00:31:44] We actually had a company compound, okay?
[00:31:48] And we actually had a guard mount, you know,
[00:31:51] and we had our own NCO club and we had,
[00:31:54] and so we had all the BS of the admin stuff
[00:31:58] that you do when you're in Gerson.
[00:32:01] But we were doing combat patrolling every day on the DMZ.
[00:32:05] So it was really a great experience for me as a young officer,
[00:32:09] because I was able to lead troops out on patrol.
[00:32:13] But also I had to do all this admin stuff, you know, the Gerson.
[00:32:18] And so that was your Patoon Commander tour.
[00:32:21] What were the patrols like? What were you doing?
[00:32:23] Basically, they were ambush patrols,
[00:32:26] because the DMZ was set up
[00:32:29] where it was a free fire zone.
[00:32:32] If you saw anyone, you could shoot them,
[00:32:34] because nobody was supposed to be there, okay?
[00:32:37] And we would have to say Korean Chongqing,
[00:32:40] which is telling the stop, you know,
[00:32:43] but how many times did you say that before you pulled the trigger?
[00:32:46] Basically, but we did ambush patroling primarily.
[00:32:51] And that was, you said you were lucky,
[00:32:54] or you said it was God that put you there.
[00:32:56] And you feel that because that's just a really good sort of warm-up for combat.
[00:33:02] Absolutely. That's absolutely.
[00:33:04] I feel that way. My first deployment to Iraq was relatively.
[00:33:09] It was relatively easy, right?
[00:33:11] We were in a bad dad. Things were going pretty well.
[00:33:15] We had the upper hand on the enemy,
[00:33:16] and we didn't get into too much major combat.
[00:33:21] You know, we got a few fire fights here and there,
[00:33:22] but wasn't like when I got from body.
[00:33:25] I felt like that, I was real blessed to have had an experience
[00:33:30] where you get the kind of the initial nervousness out of your system
[00:33:34] and you realize, okay, I can do this.
[00:33:35] That was, I felt pretty lucky about that.
[00:33:38] Well, also, you know, keeping mine up is just a young,
[00:33:41] second-leaf ton of shaved tail, what did I know? Really.
[00:33:44] And I was once again blessed, I had a platoon sergeant
[00:33:48] who really, even as a Korean war veteran.
[00:33:51] Oh, wow.
[00:33:51] You know, God was actually in E7, okay?
[00:33:54] And basically, when I got there, you know,
[00:33:57] I was his lieutenant.
[00:33:59] Okay, so nobody screwed around with me,
[00:34:02] but on the other hand, I listened.
[00:34:03] We all carefully.
[00:34:05] That's one thing I learned.
[00:34:07] You know, as a young officer,
[00:34:10] I've had my success in the military
[00:34:14] because I had great NCOs who made me look good.
[00:34:19] And I had commanders who mentored me
[00:34:21] and didn't cut my head off when I screwed up.
[00:34:23] And I made my first share of mistakes.
[00:34:25] Yeah, but we all, you get done with that tour.
[00:34:28] And then what's your next assignment?
[00:34:30] So, you know, you get your dream sheet, right?
[00:34:33] A lot of where you want to go when you do a row,
[00:34:35] so when you leave that area.
[00:34:37] And so I put in for Fort Brake, for Fort Benning,
[00:34:41] because I'm on the go to a narrow point unit,
[00:34:42] because I was airborne, but I had never served in a narrow point unit, right?
[00:34:45] They sent me to Fort Lewis Washington.
[00:34:47] So I go to Fort Lewis Washington to the training center,
[00:34:53] infantry training center, okay?
[00:34:56] And when I get there, I made a long story short
[00:35:01] when I was in Korea.
[00:35:03] I also was, they found out I had a master's degree,
[00:35:06] so they pulled me off the line.
[00:35:09] And the battalion commander calls me into his office, right?
[00:35:12] So I go down there and he says,
[00:35:15] do you tell them what we are going to do?
[00:35:17] How are you doing?
[00:35:19] Sir, I'm having a great time.
[00:35:21] I'm with soldiers, we're doing combat patrol lane.
[00:35:27] And I really, and this is what I've been trained to do.
[00:35:32] And he's, so I'm happy.
[00:35:35] So he says, I see you have a master's degree.
[00:35:37] I said, yes, sir.
[00:35:40] And he said, our battalion accident is leaving.
[00:35:44] And you have a degree in English.
[00:35:48] You can see where this is going, right?
[00:35:50] And I said, yes, sir, and he said, well,
[00:35:52] how would you like to be the battalion accident?
[00:35:56] And I said, sir, I'm honored that you would even
[00:35:59] consider this, but I'm really happy, you know,
[00:36:03] leading soldiers.
[00:36:04] And he said, do you tell him I'm not looking for a
[00:36:07] hapiness in my battalion?
[00:36:09] You will report on Monday morning, yes, sir.
[00:36:13] So off I went, and I became the battalion to
[00:36:17] accident.
[00:36:17] But that once again was a great experience for me,
[00:36:20] because I learned a lot of the admin stuff.
[00:36:25] And unfortunately, and some, I also saw some bad stuff going on,
[00:36:29] which I was not happy with.
[00:36:31] I saw, you know, because obviously,
[00:36:34] accident, what I didn't tell you was, that was that battalion level.
[00:36:39] The brigade accident left, and they called me up to brigade to be the brigade.
[00:36:44] And I'm a first lieutenant.
[00:36:45] That's a major position, right?
[00:36:48] But I happen to be pretty good.
[00:36:50] And I was the best battalion accident, not all the
[00:36:53] battalions.
[00:36:54] So I go up there, I go up there to brigade to be the brigade accident.
[00:36:59] And what I found was, you know, the officer efficiency
[00:37:03] reports and the OERs, I knew all the battalion commanders,
[00:37:07] because I dealt with them all.
[00:37:09] So if I Jim Moquayama were to rate the battalion commanders
[00:37:14] based on their leadership, right?
[00:37:18] And I would have rated them one, two, three, four.
[00:37:22] But I saw the reports going through, it was four, three, two, one.
[00:37:26] And that's because they were looking for managers,
[00:37:30] not commanders.
[00:37:33] And so that was, that was a tough,
[00:37:36] until the swallow.
[00:37:37] So I opening for you as a young man.
[00:37:39] Yeah.
[00:37:40] Yeah.
[00:37:40] Yeah.
[00:37:40] I know when I worked, I was the admiral's aide.
[00:37:41] And I saw, I didn't see stuff like that turned me off.
[00:37:46] But I saw, I just just getting a better grip on what was happening
[00:37:49] behind the scenes was very important for me,
[00:37:52] and it helped me out, you know, later on.
[00:37:57] And when you were in Fort Lewis, that's when you first met Hacourt, right?
[00:38:01] Absolutely correct.
[00:38:03] This was so cool when, when, when,
[00:38:06] now I'm a captain, by this time I'm a captain, right?
[00:38:10] And I'm at the, I'm the secretary general of the,
[00:38:16] of SGS.
[00:38:19] I was the secretary of the general staff, okay?
[00:38:22] What that means is obviously a system for the chief of staff,
[00:38:25] basically.
[00:38:26] And so, yeah.
[00:38:28] Do you know who Hacourt was?
[00:38:30] Oh, okay.
[00:38:31] We all, we all, I mean, Hacourt's a legend, you know,
[00:38:35] everybody knew who he was, but also because I had that job,
[00:38:39] one of my functions was, I was the guy who coordinated the general schedule,
[00:38:44] and the chief of SGS schedule.
[00:38:46] And Hacourt was reporting into Fort Lewis as a new battalion commander, okay?
[00:38:52] Well, whenever a new battalion commander came in,
[00:38:55] I always did research on the person, you know, so I could tell the general,
[00:39:00] you know, here's the guy who's coming, here's his background,
[00:39:02] well, Hacourt's was.
[00:39:04] You know, Mr. Infantry, basically.
[00:39:07] And so when he came to see the general, he walks into the headquarters,
[00:39:11] you know, I'm sitting behind his desk, he walks in,
[00:39:14] so I stand up, you know, I say welcome Colonel Hacourt to Fort Lewis,
[00:39:18] you know, the general will be with you in 10 minutes, you know,
[00:39:20] because he came early, right?
[00:39:22] The first words out of Hacourt's mouth,
[00:39:25] I'm not kidding.
[00:39:26] First words, what are you doing sitting behind the desk?
[00:39:30] He said you should have a company.
[00:39:33] He said if you want one, I'll give it to you, okay?
[00:39:37] The guy doesn't know me from Adam, right?
[00:39:39] I mean, you know, but, you know, it was pretty sharp in the way of warming,
[00:39:44] you know, for my did have, you know, my jump wings and my E, I have an
[00:39:48] expert infantryman's badge, okay?
[00:39:50] And I had my E, I'd be, that's it.
[00:39:53] I didn't wear any ribbons or A to stuff, and just the stuff that counted.
[00:39:57] As far as I was concerned.
[00:39:59] And so Hac sought that, you know, and I said, Colonel, I really appreciate, you know,
[00:40:04] what you're saying, but I came to the same conclusion that you did a couple months ago,
[00:40:09] and I've already talked to a battalion commander who's accepted me to take one of his companies.
[00:40:17] So I'm committed to him, so I can't, you know, I'd love to take you up on your offer,
[00:40:22] but I can't, because I committed to the Southern Battalion commander.
[00:40:25] And Hac said I understand totally, okay?
[00:40:28] Well, that turned out to be another kind of thing, because later on, as you know, in the book,
[00:40:33] he and I got together and we saved the career of a drill sergeant.
[00:40:37] Mm-hmm.
[00:40:37] We, I just want to hear a little bit more about this, because it's something that I haven't
[00:40:43] been able to gather from anyone.
[00:40:46] You know, in my mind, you know, I thought everyone must look at Hac like,
[00:40:51] you know, this guy's Mr. Infantry as you put it, but I also would say to myself,
[00:40:55] well, you know, here's like, I'm thinking that because he wrote these books, and because I studied him,
[00:40:59] but that was an actual thing. People knew who he was by his reputation throughout the army.
[00:41:06] Yeah, it was not only his reputation, but his appearance.
[00:41:10] I mean, you know, his neck was probably the size of my waist.
[00:41:14] I mean, this, you know, Hac worth was just, you know, he always said,
[00:41:18] you know, he wasn't bald like today, you know, but you know,
[00:41:23] eighth of an inch, you know, razor sharp, you know, sides and all that.
[00:41:27] And what I didn't say is when he, Hac worth had this unique ability to size people up when he saw them.
[00:41:35] Like when he said that to me, and, and I've said this before, but Hac worth,
[00:41:41] his philosophy was, you're either a dud or a stud.
[00:41:45] And there was nothing in between.
[00:41:48] And he had this uncanny, I've seen it dozens of times where he actually did size guys up.
[00:41:56] And I never saw him this, on that evaluation.
[00:42:00] He just had this, this instinct, you know, the size guys up.
[00:42:04] And that's, and that's why he was successful as a commander because one of the principles is the
[00:42:10] surround yourself with good people. And so when he came to a unit, he found some guys that were
[00:42:17] cutting it, they were gone. I mean, especially in combat, you know, he can't tolerate that,
[00:42:22] you know, and he would, and he had the strings that he could pull.
[00:42:26] And he had the relationships all over the place that seems.
[00:42:29] That's right. Now, how did, when did he leave with to go to Vietnam and take over the battalion?
[00:42:35] He, he probably let the sea, I left in May of 69. So it was probably end of 68 or maybe
[00:42:44] early 69. And, and he goes over, and he's over there for a few months. And then he ends up needing,
[00:42:51] well, he wants to surround himself with good people again. And so he reaches out to you.
[00:42:55] Yeah, how does that happen? Well, you know, I, I was still at Lewis as an AIT company commander.
[00:43:06] And another thing I should tell you at that time, I'm not real happy with the army because they never
[00:43:13] gave me any assignment or anything I ever asked for. Yeah, you're like, oh, for for it this point.
[00:43:19] Well, wait, are you ready for this? I, I get what I didn't tell you was in graduate school. I majored
[00:43:24] in Japanese history and Chinese history and political science and Japanese language in my masters of
[00:43:32] social studies. Okay. And I happened to be Japanese American. I happened to had a tour in Korea, right?
[00:43:40] We're, by the way, I didn't tell you, I got some awards from the Korean army. And so now the army
[00:43:47] comes out with the foreign area specialty training program or fast. Okay. And the concept was a great
[00:43:55] concept, you know, in Vietnam, we got caught with our pants down because we didn't have any army experts
[00:44:00] in Vietnam. Nobody knew the culture, nobody knew the language, the politics, sound familiar. And so
[00:44:07] basically, the army said, okay, we're going to develop geographic experts for the whole world.
[00:44:14] Okay. And we're going to call it the fast program. So I saw that and it was in the army times.
[00:44:21] You know, they said, you have an interest called this number, you know, and so I called,
[00:44:25] you know, and he said, hey, look, pull up my record, you know, you'll see, you know, I'm,
[00:44:30] I've got my masters degree in Fari Senefers. Ethnicly, I'm Japanese. I've got a tour in Korea
[00:44:39] where I got some awards from the Korean army. Okay. And I'm regular army. Right. What are my
[00:44:48] chances of getting in this program? They should be 100% right? Are you ready for this? The first
[00:44:54] words out of their guy's mouth. You haven't been to Vietnam. And I said, well, that's right,
[00:45:01] but if you go back in my record, you'll see, I volunteered for Vietnam. In the army sent me to Korea.
[00:45:08] Okay. He said that doesn't count. Okay. The second thing he said was you haven't been the career
[00:45:14] course advance course or officer. He got me there. I hadn't, you know, I was just a young captain.
[00:45:19] I hadn't been there. So in essence, he's telling me, you know, come back in a couple of years
[00:45:24] and maybe we'll think about it. You know, he didn't give me any encouragement. He didn't say,
[00:45:30] hey, you're a natural for this program. You know, I'll keep on monitoring your career,
[00:45:34] you know, he didn't do any of that stuff. And about that time, I got the letter from Hankworth saying,
[00:45:40] hey, move, we got a war going on. If you want a company at yours, and like, I hit the lotto,
[00:45:46] you know, and frankly, I was, I was thinking of, you know, resigning my regular army commission,
[00:45:52] but I hadn't been to Vietnam yet. And I was a bachelor. I had a lot of my friends who were married
[00:45:58] or going back for their second and third tours, you know, and I felt an object. And then I don't know
[00:46:03] you that, but I figured, well, maybe if I go, I'll change my mind, you know, and serving on your
[00:46:09] hand course would be the best opportunity I could have. So I jumped at it, you know, and I went,
[00:46:14] but things did not happen. How did you get orders? I mean, you know, I know hack worth had some
[00:46:20] relationships with people, but just to get a guy deployed to be in his battalion, how did you
[00:46:25] put, how did he pull that off? What did it look like? Well, I mean, I, I called my infantry officer
[00:46:30] assignment guy, whom I never spoken to in the five years I was on active duty, right? Because I
[00:46:36] always felt that I shouldn't be managing my own career, you know, and if I, if I did my job,
[00:46:44] that the army would, you know, I, I'd be treated, okay, you know, well, none of that ever happened,
[00:46:49] right? So I called the sky at the Pentagon and I say, hey, I'm volunteering for Vietnam again,
[00:46:54] and he basically said, well, okay, you know, give me your phone number, in case we lose connection
[00:47:02] here, and, and then he said, and I said, but I have a stipulation, I need to go to the night division,
[00:47:09] and he said, okay, I can make that happen. When do you want to go? I said, as soon as possible,
[00:47:15] and this is February, and he said, why can get you there in August? And I said, nope, that's not
[00:47:21] soon enough. He said, how about April? I said, sold. So I got orders to, you know, now everybody told
[00:47:27] me in the world at that time, here I am, infantry regular army captain going to Vietnam. When I hit
[00:47:35] the repo depot, they could assign me anywhere. You know, and the orders meant nothing, you know,
[00:47:41] because captain's infantry captain's were a dime a dozen. So when I get to Vietnam,
[00:47:48] everything was Greece, night division. I went from the night, I went from from, from Saigon,
[00:47:56] right to the night division at Dong Tam. You know, I landed there, I got my orders to his battalion.
[00:48:02] It's all all Greece. What you doing some kind of like Vietnam indoctrination for a week long
[00:48:08] and hack pulled you out two days into it or something? Yeah, I was so upset. They had a five day
[00:48:15] in country training program for newbies, okay? Especially, you know, in the Delta,
[00:48:24] I'd say 85% of our casualties were from booby traps. And so we were, and there was a special
[00:48:32] terrain, you know, with rice paddies and, and a canals and, you know, just the whole thing was totally
[00:48:39] different. And so they had this five day training course to acclimate you and to understand the booby traps
[00:48:46] and the terrain and all this stuff. And I'm in it for two days and I'm pulled out of the course.
[00:48:51] And I put on a helicopter and they take me down to, you know, the battalion fire support base
[00:48:57] and I'm mattered in the wet hen. You know, and I go to half and I say, sir, you know, how can
[00:49:02] you do this to me? I mean, I'm trying to learn how to stay alive, you know, so I can, and he said,
[00:49:08] moke, you don't need that stuff. I know you, you know, yes, sir, yes, sir, I have.
[00:49:13] And when you showed up, so for those of you that hadn't read, haven't read the books or listened to
[00:49:17] the other podcasts about this, hack worth it showed up. But he was requested by name to go and take
[00:49:22] over the 439th and Vietnam, which was a, which was a battalion that was having a lot of problems.
[00:49:28] And he went in there and he fixed it. I mean, that's, there's no, simple way to put it. He went in there
[00:49:34] and squared that battalion away and made them from hopeless to hardcore is the terms that get used.
[00:49:42] When you showed up, the heat already been there for a while, so things were pretty solid at that point.
[00:49:47] Oh, they were, they were so good. It was incredible. In fact, the first guy I met when I, when I got
[00:49:53] there was our battalion this forward, his name was Mario Takahashi. He was actually a national guard guy from Hawaii.
[00:50:02] He was about six, two or six, three big Japanese guy. You know, not like me.
[00:50:07] The tall was hack worth.
[00:50:10] Yeah, of course.
[00:50:11] Because you just, you made it sound when you said the talking about his neck, was he like a
[00:50:14] bait because he, in pictures, he always looks pretty lean and, and not very physically large.
[00:50:20] Well, when I, I mean, he was, he was stout. Okay. I mean, he wasn't, he wasn't real, he was
[00:50:25] in real tall, but just the way he carried himself. That's what I always envisioned was he was just
[00:50:32] a guy that if you walked away, go, I bet that. You know, how tall was hack worth? Oh, he's six eight.
[00:50:37] Yeah. You know, when you find out he's whatever five enters. And not only that, but I'll tell you.
[00:50:42] He, when I became a general later on in life and, and he came to one of my, every, every year,
[00:50:49] I used to have a leadership conference for my, my officers and my NCOs that I would invite speakers
[00:50:56] to come to. And hack worth came to one of my conferences and then he visited me in Chicago
[00:51:03] when he was doing his, about face book, right? And so he invited me in my wife and kids to
[00:51:11] have dinner with him one night. You know, he always said, bring your kids, you know, some guys
[00:51:16] would say, no, just, you know, bring your wife or whatever, because my kids were fairly young,
[00:51:21] and then we're really young, they were maybe eight or nine, you know, at that time. And my wife
[00:51:27] and the kids actually commented about how soft spoken Hamworth was. He wasn't a blustery guy.
[00:51:37] You know, among guys, yeah, but, you know, in the, in public with, you know, women and family
[00:51:43] members, he was, he was a gentleman, which kind of surprised my wife because I told him well about,
[00:51:52] and so, but that's, that's how he was. And, and so the, the, the battalion you show up, it's just,
[00:52:01] the guys are really on board with what's going on. Oh, absolutely, because I got there
[00:52:07] probably three weeks before our, our famous, but it wasn't really a battle on 22 May, where we
[00:52:16] decimated a VC training battalion basically. And I remember being at the talk, you know,
[00:52:27] when he's planning on this hack, where it's had this innate quality, get just smell out the enemy,
[00:52:33] you know, even with all the intelligence we get and all this stuff, you know, he was able to
[00:52:38] figure out what they were doing. And so he, he set us up for that night, but to answer to you,
[00:52:45] dress with you, or saying, by the time I got there, talk on Hashie was the first guy in that, okay,
[00:52:50] he was really a strong, straight student and he was the S4. And so he got all the equipment for
[00:52:57] the battalion and he got it, whatever way he had to get it, you know. And then I meet the next guy,
[00:53:03] me, is another, is a company commander. And that guy was like six, three or something, you know,
[00:53:08] so I'm seeing a pattern here, right? And I'm five foot five, okay? And but here's a cool thing about
[00:53:14] this, one of the other company commanders, his name was Don Meyer. And by the way, hackers
[00:53:20] had this really cool way of of using words and terms and titles that, you know, like our
[00:53:29] companies were not Alpha Bravo Charlie Delta. They were alert, battle, claim, or and dagger, okay?
[00:53:37] And the claim or a company commander was a guy by name, a Don Meyer's. Don Meyer's was my roommate
[00:53:45] in college at the University of Illinois. And we both were infantry, our OTC guys, right? And then later,
[00:53:53] he was, he was with the hundred and first and he was wounded, so they shook them to the Simmons.
[00:54:00] And then they assigned him the Fort Lewis, which was where hackworth and I were. So Don and I were
[00:54:06] roommates again for Lewis Washington, okay? So then hackworth ships to be at none and he takes
[00:54:13] Myers with him, okay? So no Myers, who, by the way, is six foot three, right? And this nickname was
[00:54:20] Lank. And when he and I were in college as roommates, it was like mutton Jeff, you know?
[00:54:26] And I wasn't the tall guy. And so anyway, but as you, as you can understand, to have,
[00:54:33] I commanded battle company and he commanded claim or company. And I knew that if we were going to
[00:54:41] run into any cramp, you know, that he would, he would be there for me. And he knew I would be there for
[00:54:47] him. And that was, that was, it just, it was really good. Yeah, that whole thing with names is
[00:54:56] something that I completely ripped off from hackworth when I was a task unit commander, our task
[00:55:02] unit was called, whether it was Alpha Bravo and Charlie and I had Bravo and immediately when I
[00:55:07] took it over, I changed the name from Bravo to Bruser. And that's was that changed the attitude
[00:55:13] of people. It really does. Well, I also, as you know, all elite units have, have greetings and
[00:55:19] counter signs, right? So for the hardcore, our, our model was hardcore recondo, that was what the
[00:55:27] greeting was. The countersign, which I cannot say totally was no effing slack. Okay. Yeah.
[00:55:36] But I'll tell you, there were guys, I saw this, I witnessed this. There were guys who were wounded
[00:55:41] on stretchers. And hackers would walk up to them and they'd salute them and say hardcore recondo.
[00:55:50] What kind of missions did you do when you showed up there? So you take over your company commander?
[00:55:56] Yeah, they were, they were, they were just really reconsurge and disdrew. I'm not really
[00:56:04] destroyed, but you know, we were, we were seeking out the VC, but as it got closer to, we know we were
[00:56:13] leaving, right? Because President Nixon had said that, you know. So it just got to be, you know,
[00:56:21] we kind of the area, make sure they weren't there. If they were there, we get into firefight
[00:56:24] so that didn't happen very often. It was mostly booby traps and things. And basically, that was it,
[00:56:33] because they, you know, they're smart. They knew we were leaving. So why go and, why get into contact?
[00:56:40] Right. You're leaving. Now you, you were showing me some pictures earlier. You're,
[00:56:46] pretty famous picture that got published. It's, someone, uh, your, your RTO had just been wounded.
[00:56:52] What was the story on that? Yeah, this is one of our operations and there was a booby trap and,
[00:56:57] and he was, uh, he got a sucking chest wound from it and, and I got a little shrapnel, not a lot.
[00:57:04] And, uh, basically, I called in a MetaVat helicopter and the helicopter came in and unbeknownst to us.
[00:57:11] There was a UPI photographer on the helicopter and he snapped a picture of my guy's carrying
[00:57:20] my wounded RTO on a structure towards the helicopter. And that became like the UPI
[00:57:26] picture for the day that went around the world. You know, the Vietnam photograph. I didn't even
[00:57:31] know to exist until three years later. I was out. I was off and back to duty. I was reading
[00:57:36] on U.S. News and World Report magazine and the picture was like three inches by four inches
[00:57:41] in the magazine. But it was all my soldiers, you know, and I saw it and I said, hey, and then I saw
[00:57:46] I was in the picture. So I'm kind of, in the picture so you can see me. So, uh, I got the photo
[00:57:53] from them. I get asked a lot and it's something that I don't have any experience with
[00:57:59] is what it was like having drafties as, you know, I was in all volunteer military and then on top of
[00:58:06] that, you know, the unit I worked with, we were all volunteered again. You know, you volunteer to
[00:58:11] come in the new volunteer again to try and be in the seal teams and people ask what it was like
[00:58:16] working with drafties. Now, hackworth's opinion was drafties were good because they didn't care
[00:58:22] about their career and if they thought something was wrong, they'd say, hey, this is crap. We don't
[00:58:26] want to do that or hey, you're not telling the truth to us. And so he thought it was good and it kept
[00:58:31] the army in check. But there's still how to be some leadership differences in dealing with an
[00:58:38] and later in your career. Obviously, you started working with the all volunteer army. What did you
[00:58:41] notice about the drafties that you learned from? Well, the drafties just like, and it doesn't
[00:58:49] make any difference or your drafties or or volunteers. It depends on the leadership and, you know,
[00:58:56] they'll respond the good leadership and the drafties were like anyone else. Once you're in the position,
[00:59:06] you're going to do the best you can, especially when you're in combat because you want to survive.
[00:59:11] And by that time it gets to be a bonding thing. You're not there fighting for liberty and just
[00:59:17] this in the American way. You're fighting for the guide to the right of you and the guide to the
[00:59:22] left of you, basically. Because you're every day you're living together, you're dying together,
[00:59:27] you know, and so it's a function of leadership and the drafties were great guys. I mean,
[00:59:34] I'd serve with them anywhere. In fact, I didn't even know who was stranded. I didn't care. I didn't ask
[00:59:40] you know, whether there are drafties or volunteers, although the vast majority of our guys were
[00:59:45] drafties in the fourth or the 39th. And that's what was so cool about it that hackers could take
[00:59:52] that Italian and turn it around. And I heard stories because I came later on, you know, but he had
[00:59:58] a price on and said initially. Yeah, a price on his head from his own guys. Yeah, well, yeah,
[01:00:04] but nobody had the gonads to step up and clean the, clean the price. So yeah, I mean, one of the things
[01:00:11] he talks about and again, I've talked about this on another podcast, but you know, when he showed
[01:00:15] up, everyone had whatever they had guitars and they had radios and they had, you know, big
[01:00:20] hammocks for themselves and he got there and said, okay, anything that you can't carry on your back
[01:00:25] is going to be in the middle of our base tomorrow morning. It's getting shipped out on helicopters.
[01:00:29] So people went crazy. Are you kidding me? Well, not only that. You don't what he did. I'm true. You know
[01:00:34] this, but he took away class A meals. Oh, I did not know that or I don't remember it because
[01:00:39] there was so, they were so, how to say this nicely. They, they were not disciplined. Okay.
[01:00:49] They had lousy leadership before that and, uh, Hackworth basically said, you know, you guys are soldiers
[01:00:56] and he said, I'm going to keep you alive, you know, but you're going to have to soldier. So he actually
[01:01:02] took class A's away and initially he made them shine their boots and they're like, I mean,
[01:01:07] you know, stuff that sounds crazy. Yeah. You know, but he was getting their attention. Yeah. You know,
[01:01:13] and cleaning weapons. I mean, they would, you know, they were not cleaning. I mean, how crazy is that?
[01:01:18] They were cleaning their weapons. At nighttime there was night discipline. Light discipline was
[01:01:24] almost non-existent. I mean, it was crazy. And Hackworth made them, you know, soldier up and
[01:01:29] and, and, uh, but then what happened was, uh, they started to use his tactics and they found out
[01:01:37] that, hey, this works. I mean, we're not taking casualties like we did before. We're actually
[01:01:43] inflicting casualties that we weren't doing before. And then he started to give stuff back.
[01:01:51] Oh, you know what else he did? He took away beer. I mean, beer was like water. I mean,
[01:01:58] you know, the average temperature was like 95 degrees, you know, and all that. And it was like
[01:02:04] three point two. Whatever the beer was, you know, but he took that away initially too. And people thought he was
[01:02:10] nuts. Yeah. Actually, there's a great quote in about face. It's some guy right in home to us.
[01:02:15] It's just a quote from a letter. Somebody wrote out wrote, you know, my new company, my new
[01:02:19] betelian commander's crazy. I don't know what's going to happen. That's literally a letter or a guy
[01:02:23] right home. It's interesting to me. So I've seen this and I'm sure you've seen this in your career.
[01:02:30] I've seen it in the business world. I'm sure you've seen the business world in the military.
[01:02:35] Guys that go so far in that direction of being so hardcore and over the top that they break
[01:02:42] their guys and people don't actually like them and they don't want to serve them and they don't
[01:02:48] want to do good job because they're too focused on stuff that doesn't really matter. And
[01:02:54] hack was just, he seemed to have this ability to balance it so well between being hardcore and yet
[01:03:01] at the same time, everybody knows that he's going to take care of many loves him.
[01:03:05] Yeah. That was the main thing because they knew that they were going to, they were going to
[01:03:11] live under his command if they followed what he said. And there would be successful too.
[01:03:17] Don't forget that success breeds success. And so the hardcore is they kept on progressing.
[01:03:27] He became prouder and prouder of, you know, in the guys. It was just a unit that nobody wanted
[01:03:35] to reckon with. And that's how it was. But hack led by example, I can't, I just can't emphasize
[01:03:42] that enough. You know, I have my leadership mantra which, you know, I'm a simple guy. So I boil
[01:03:51] the boil things down simply. And it's a three words example, carrying and balance.
[01:03:58] And you got to lead by personal example. It's not, you know, do what I say, but do what I do.
[01:04:04] And carrying is the care for your soldiers. And, you know, carrying means, especially in combat,
[01:04:14] keeping them alive. That's how you care for them. And you train tough. You know, I mean,
[01:04:20] hack worth always mentioned that, you know, the harder you train, you know, the better the
[01:04:25] delperform and combat. In fact, sometimes it was easier in combat than, you know, some of the training
[01:04:31] that he'd make them go through. And, and finally, is balance to, especially leaders. And I'm
[01:04:37] talking to leaders, right? And I always told my leaders that you've got to maintain a balance between
[01:04:45] your professional, military job and your family. And I used to tell my guys, you're not doing
[01:04:54] many good if you're going through a divorce. You know, and too many guys, it's easy when you get
[01:04:59] promoted to get kind of caught up in the perks and in the responsibility, you know, see you work
[01:05:06] harder to be more, and then what do you do? You ignore your family. And then things fall apart.
[01:05:12] And so I, I warned my soldiers. I always said, you know, maintain that balance. And I tried to do
[01:05:19] that not only personally, but to get my, so when we were mobilized, for example, okay, my division.
[01:05:25] Now, this was not, we didn't deploy overseas. We were a training division. Our wartime mission
[01:05:33] was the Army reserves, by the way, was the only service that had this. We, we had reservist,
[01:05:39] whose wartime mission was to take over the training of the recruits at the active duty stations,
[01:05:45] which would then release those active duty soldiers to go join forces. It made a lot of sense, you know.
[01:05:52] So, so when that happened, I, I went to my staff. Now, you have to understand, this is like the
[01:06:00] late 80s, right? Okay? And I went to my staff and I said, I want a 24 hour, 800 number
[01:06:11] from my family support program. I want my soldiers to know, and I want their spouses to know
[01:06:17] that while they're deployed, if there's any problems, they can count on us. And I want it to be
[01:06:25] 24-7, man. And they said, General, you have to understand those, they's 800 numbers were pretty expensive.
[01:06:30] And, and they said, you know, number one is going to be expensive. Number two, you know, 24-7,
[01:06:37] you know, and I said, make it happen. Because I, I, the last thing I wanted my soldiers who were
[01:06:43] deployed to worry about was their families, right? And then what I did is I, I had the two-star
[01:06:51] stationery, you know, as, as a major general, little notes, you know, they're not eight and a half by 11.
[01:06:56] They're little note things. So I told my staff, I want to send a personally signed note to every
[01:07:05] spouse or significant other of the Floyd soldier in this division. And I'm on a note to go
[01:07:13] to their employer, because you have to understand these are reservists, right? Okay? So I had 1500 soldiers
[01:07:22] mobilized, right? So this is 3,000 letters that I'm going to sign, you know, personally. They
[01:07:28] wanted me to use an auto, auto pen, you know, by computer, you know, manufacturer, your signature.
[01:07:35] I said, no way, these are, these are going, you know. So I, I did that. And what happened was,
[01:07:41] I was, I had a cousin whose husband was a steel seal salesman, okay? And she calls me in
[01:07:49] the day. She said, you'll never know what happened to my husband. He was making a call on this company
[01:07:54] in Indiana, okay? And on the wall was one of my letters. You know, very cool to them. And he saw
[01:08:01] my name on it, you know. So caring for your caring and balance is important. Yeah, yeah, you know,
[01:08:15] you talked about that, that operation that was so well planned and so well executed. And you
[01:08:21] talked about hack words, sort of six cents instinct. And then, you know, I've heard you talk
[01:08:31] in some other interviews about a situation that you were in. That was that you described as really
[01:08:39] sort of impacting your your mental state. And to me, when I heard you talk about it,
[01:08:47] it seemed to be almost like a turning point mentally, psychologically for you. And I had to do with
[01:08:54] you overrunning a position and you end up with some some. Yeah, I didn't realize the impact of that
[01:09:01] incident until many, many years later. But in order for me to explain that, I have to talk about something
[01:09:09] called moral injury, which is when they so called invisible wounds of war. A lot of people are
[01:09:18] familiar with post-traumatic stress disorder. A lot of people are aware of traumatic brain injury.
[01:09:26] But when you asked them that they could describe the invisible wound of war called moral injury,
[01:09:32] very few people are knowledgeable about that. How long has that term been used?
[01:09:37] There was a psychiatrist at the VA, Dr. Jonathan Shey, who basically coined that phrase in 2009.
[01:09:48] So it's been around for a while. And now it's starting to really pick up steam in research
[01:09:55] because of its significance in contributing to the high suicide rate, among veterans.
[01:10:05] And the concept is, when I go around and I give presentations and I tell people, the concept is so
[01:10:14] intuitive, you'll get it in 30 seconds. Okay, so here it is. From the time you're born until you're 18
[01:10:21] years old, you develop a personal moral code, sense of right or wrong. That could come from your
[01:10:27] family, your religion, community, friends, whatever. And then you join the military and you learn
[01:10:35] a warrior code. The warrior code is superimposed on your personal moral code and in fact transforms
[01:10:43] it somewhat. Then you might have to participate in activities or operations that violate your
[01:10:49] personal moral code, such as killing. You don't have to be the person that pulls the trigger.
[01:10:56] You could be a witness or you could feel that you should have prevented it or you could be
[01:11:03] in a unit to follow another unit and you see that innocent civilians have been killed or you
[01:11:09] handle body parts. At that time you sustained a so-called invisible wound of war called moral injury.
[01:11:17] It's not a physical wound. You can't see it. But in military operations, we're constantly moving.
[01:11:23] You're going from point A to point B to point C. You don't have time to stop and reflect on this
[01:11:29] stuff. So what do you do? You bury it. And it becomes unresolved grief, shame, and what happens is
[01:11:40] you come back to the states and let's say you leave the military or you're in the national guard
[01:11:46] or reserves and you come back to a community anywhere in the country that doesn't understand what
[01:11:53] you've been through and it boils up to the surface. And unless you have a strong coping mechanism
[01:12:00] for that bad stuff happens, anger, guilt, depression, suicide. And the suicide rate among
[01:12:08] veterans today is epidemic. I mean the VA is anywhere from 20 to 22 veterans per day are dying
[01:12:15] by suicide and that frankly is under-reported. It's really higher than that because you've got
[01:12:21] veterans who are dying by suicide is not reported as a suicide. Though drive their motorcycle or
[01:12:29] car into a tree or by duct and it's a vehicular accident or unfortunately there's something
[01:12:37] called suicide by cop where they force the law enforcement officer to take lethal action.
[01:12:44] And so what's the implication of all that? We lose more veterans to suicide in a year than all
[01:12:50] the combat dust since 9-11. That's how dramatic it is. And we believe that moral injury is a major
[01:12:58] contributing factor to that. And military outreach USA, our organization, we feel that the main
[01:13:06] approach to moral injury is not a medical doctor with prescription drugs. It's the forgiveness
[01:13:14] and grace of a moral authority and the counseling of clergy and sensitive therapists and the
[01:13:23] support of a community offering hope and help. And so now getting back to that incident that
[01:13:29] you asked me about, Jockel, I was a company commander battle company. We had just overrun
[01:13:36] a vehicle composition and killed numerous enemies and I literally had three dead bodies sent my feet.
[01:13:45] Well, the time the unit is most vulnerable is right after a victory. It's just human nature to let
[01:13:52] your guard down and breathe the side relief. When the guy in charge, I know that. So I'm on my radio
[01:13:59] and I'm kicking rear end and taking names. I'm telling my platoon leaders, reorganize your units,
[01:14:06] redistribute ammunition, take care of your wounded, look for enemy avenues of approach for a counterattack,
[01:14:13] right? And in the middle of all that stuff going on, I stopped. And I looked at the three dead bodies
[01:14:21] at my feet. I realized that something had happened to me, something had hardened my heart,
[01:14:28] only moments earlier, these were alive human beings. They had families, they had emotions,
[01:14:36] they had loved ones, they were fighting for something as important to them as I was fighting for.
[01:14:43] And I was in their backyard. And then I remember Jesus' sermon on the Mount,
[01:14:48] we told us to pray for our enemies. So in the midst of all this stuff going on,
[01:14:53] I set up prayer for the three be at Kong. And I know I was praying for myself, this much as I was
[01:15:01] praying for them. Now, I didn't have a big ceremony, get on my hands and knees, any of that stuff.
[01:15:08] You know, this all took about 45 seconds. But it's something that was seared in my heart and mind
[01:15:14] for the rest of my life. And now that I know about moral injury, which I didn't know at that time,
[01:15:21] I realized that I was one and a million who was able to address my moral injury at the time that happened.
[01:15:32] And you know, I had always, when I came back from Vietnam, I had seen a lot of my comrades
[01:15:38] having nightmares, having flashbacks, personality changes, and I frankly asked myself,
[01:15:45] how come I'm not going through that? Okay. And at the time, my answer always was my faith,
[01:15:52] and my wife, my wonderful wife. Of now 46 years, who is an angel. I've been so blessed
[01:16:01] having her for a wife. So that was my answer, okay. But now, since I've been dealing with military
[01:16:07] outreach USA and this issue of moral injury, I realized that my answer was really lacking.
[01:16:13] Okay. There were two other things. One was that incident in Vietnam that I just mentioned to you.
[01:16:20] But the other thing, which I now realized is when I came back from Vietnam, I joined the reserves.
[01:16:27] Okay. And I was able to maintain my sense of purpose
[01:16:35] of being in an unit with other people who shared the same values that I did, of patriotism,
[01:16:42] of dedication, of selfless service, which a lot of veterans, when they come back, they just want
[01:16:49] to cut ties totally and they a lot of them drift because they don't have that sense of purpose.
[01:16:57] They don't have the camaraderie, they don't have the bonding. I had that with the reserveers,
[01:17:03] especially with Vietnam and all the BS that we had to take from the public.
[01:17:09] You won't believe this, but I know you know this. But when we came back from Vietnam,
[01:17:15] we were told not to wear our uniforms in public. That's how bad it was.
[01:17:20] That's crazy. You know, guys wore wigs so people wouldn't know they had short haircuts
[01:17:27] because they could pick them up as being military. And so my being in the reserves helped me
[01:17:34] maintain that. One of the things that I tell guys is very similar to what you just said.
[01:17:43] You know, I tell guys you got to find a new mission when you get done. When you get done with the military,
[01:17:46] you got to find a new mission. And if you can stay in the reserves, obviously, that gives you that.
[01:17:50] But if you don't do that, well, then you got to find what are you going to do? What are you going to
[01:17:54] step out there? Are you going to become a great dad? Are you going to build a business? Are you going
[01:17:58] to work for a company and do a great job? Or you got to find a new mission? And I find that
[01:18:02] guys that I've seen that have real problems, it's because they got out and they didn't have
[01:18:08] any direction to go into. And also just to dig a little bit deeper. So you're in that situation
[01:18:15] where you see these guys and for the first time you kind of look down on them and see them as
[01:18:22] people as other human beings. Is it, you know, is it the fact that you, when you set a prayer for them
[01:18:31] and for yourself, I kind of got a thought of when you hear about like Native Americans hunting.
[01:18:39] And you know, they, they think, you know, when they get a kill, they'll, they'll think
[01:18:44] that mother nature and and thank for the sacrifice. Was it that type of thing where you said,
[01:18:51] okay, you know what we're fighting? I was doing my job. You guys were doing your job.
[01:18:56] And I hope you have peace now. Was it that type of thing? Absolutely. Because, you know,
[01:19:05] what happens is you forget that they're, they're dehumanized. But you know, you've got all these,
[01:19:13] all these names that you call them. You know, but I really respected the VC, our enemy. You know,
[01:19:22] that's the other thing. You can't underestimate your enemy. You always have to respect them.
[01:19:30] You have, you know, I mean, you don't have to agree with them, but you, you have to respect
[01:19:35] their abilities. Because once you lose track of that, you can really get screwed. And basically,
[01:19:43] I'll give you some examples. When we had that battle on 22 May, okay, I wasn't the CNC
[01:19:49] helicopter with. And I guess I should describe that battle a little bit more so you're listeners.
[01:19:54] We're talking about the hardcore battalion. And when we surround this, this VC training battalion
[01:20:03] really is what it was. And we annihilated it basically. They were, they were encircled. And we were
[01:20:09] just calling her in air strikes. Naval gunfire, you know, we were just taking, and then
[01:20:15] hackworth had him totally encircled. And so I'll never forget I was in the helicopter with him.
[01:20:21] And he basically said, MOOC, we got a, first we get a radio message from one of our companies.
[01:20:29] It might have been an alert company. And they said, we just had a contact, you know, we killed three,
[01:20:34] we've kept, you know, we got four weapons, we captured a guy or whatever. And they're headed
[01:20:39] in this direction, okay? So hackworth would turn to me and say MOOC, you know, let's say,
[01:20:45] given 15 minutes, we're going to hear from battle company. 15 minutes later, battle company comes
[01:20:51] up. We just had a contact, you know, and they're heading, so this happened all day. Okay, I saw this.
[01:20:58] I was with him in the helicopter. And, but there was one VC, we were flying near a canal.
[01:21:05] And he was mortally wounded. You could see the guy was dying, basically. He took his AK 47
[01:21:11] and he threw it into the canal. Okay? And the reason he did that is he didn't want us to get that weapon.
[01:21:23] Because part of the body count was you matched how many weapons. You know, if a unit reported
[01:21:30] and they said, well, we killed 20 and we got one weapon, you kind of say, wait a second.
[01:21:35] You know, so when I saw that, I knew that this guy, you know, we were up against the tough enemy.
[01:21:43] You know, and so you got to respect your enemy and
[01:21:51] I want to pull some before we move past the Vietnam and hack. I want to pull some stuff out of about
[01:21:56] face just to kind of hear your thoughts on it. I'm going to start off with one that you've talked
[01:22:04] about a little bit, but here we go. This is from about face by David Hackworth and this is a quote
[01:22:09] from someone else. It says, hack had the knack of being able to size people up very quickly,
[01:22:15] almost instantaneously. And I'd say 99% of the time he was right. He could look at a person and
[01:22:21] in his vernacular, the guy was either a stud or he wasn't. There was no in between.
[01:22:27] If he was a stud, hack would find a way to get him. And he would not take no from people.
[01:22:33] If he wanted them because he wanted a winning team. And if a person didn't want to go with him,
[01:22:40] then immediately the guy wasn't a stud. You see, because anybody who knew hack or came into contact
[01:22:47] with him really wanted to be with him after he'd known him for a while. And that's a quote from
[01:22:53] Brigadier General James H. Mookayama, which is you. Okay. You're quoted in the book. And you've
[01:23:01] talked about that a little bit. And he just had, he must have extremely magnetic personality.
[01:23:07] For you to say that if you spent time with him, you wanted to be with him. Oh, absolutely. And
[01:23:11] he, I used to say he had the mightest touch. Everything the guy touched. Just whether it was in the
[01:23:18] military, whether it was in business, whether it was with women, in this guy, he was a stud himself.
[01:23:26] And, you know, and, but he was, he was also a sensitive guy. I'll never forget when, you know,
[01:23:35] I tell people he wasn't the most moral guy that I knew. But he was the the most ethical officer
[01:23:44] I ever served with. What I mean by that is he never did anything for personal gain. He always
[01:23:52] did things for the unit and for the soldiers. Okay. But did he have affairs and things like that?
[01:23:59] Yeah. And he used to tell me he said, Mook, you know, I should have never married because my
[01:24:06] loved this the army. You know, so he, he basically, he turned on the war college. He could have
[01:24:12] gone to the war college. He turned it down because he said, hey, I'm on another battalion and be at
[01:24:18] now. You know, I mean, he would have been a general. There's no question about it. He had he not stood
[01:24:24] off, you know, when he was no six and, and, you know, he, I think he was the youngest O-6 at that time
[01:24:32] in the army. But he was a guy who, who was, he was sensitive though and he took care. He did take
[01:24:40] care of his family. In fact, I can say this now because it's, you know, I think statue limitations
[01:24:45] might be gone. But, you know, in those days, you weren't, you weren't able to take a lot of cash out of
[01:24:50] Vietnam, you know, and, and I basically, one day, he knew I was going back home. Oh, and by the way,
[01:24:58] he did everything he could that convinced me to stay and to extend in Vietnam. Okay. He was,
[01:25:04] he had moved down to be the senior advisors for the Arvan Airborne Division, which was really the
[01:25:12] Palo scarter around Saigon. Okay. And he knew all my hot buttons. You have to understand,
[01:25:17] I was a bachelor. Okay. This time, right? And, and, and the airborne, the Vietnamese airborne
[01:25:25] wore special fatigues. They were like tiger fatigues and they had red burays. You know, and I'm
[01:25:32] just this young stud guy who likes their uniforms. And he said, Mook, he said, why don't you come
[01:25:38] down here and I'll make you the G1 advisor. That's the admin guy, right? And he said, but when you
[01:25:46] come down, if you're an advisor for the Vietnamese airborne, you get jump-a. You know, so that's
[01:25:51] extra money, right? And, and he said, and I'll give you two Arvan ours. You, because he knew I,
[01:25:59] I wanted to go to Japan and see my relatives. So in six months, he said, I'll give you two Arvan
[01:26:04] ours, right? So guys, you know, he's trying to move the, you know, the sun in the moon, they
[01:26:09] get me to extend six months. And, and I said, sir, I appreciated it, but I had some close calls.
[01:26:16] And I figured the next one would have Mook, Yam, or Ritten, that bullet would have Mook, Yam,
[01:26:21] or Ritten, and I said, no thanks, you know, I appreciate it. But I'm out of here. So,
[01:26:27] I love him. You know, you're talking about the way he was, you know, so, so pro army, and yet,
[01:26:39] he would have be able to against the army in a way. And here's another thing from the book.
[01:26:45] He says, what a mistake it was to listen to the generals of corporate HQ who were briefed only
[01:26:52] in zero defect terms, and so far from the cutting edge, expected nothing less. It was amongst
[01:27:00] the biggest mistakes of the war. The politicians only listen to these generals and the generals
[01:27:07] only listen to themselves. Few people asked front line soldiers, the only ones who really knew.
[01:27:16] Could you guys, or could you, could you a pretty close to him, could you sense that
[01:27:25] his frustration with the army? Did he talk about it with you? Did he, how did he treat?
[01:27:30] You know, that's a very hard thing for a leader to do. If you're, if you're senior leadership,
[01:27:34] is telling you to do stuff that doesn't make sense or, but, you know, hey, we can get it done,
[01:27:39] and we're going to do it. It's a hard line to walk to say, look, we support the chain.
[01:27:43] Come on, this is what they're telling us to do. I'm going to spin it in a positive way. Everyone's
[01:27:46] going to think that we're doing it for the right reasons, because if I say, hey, look,
[01:27:49] move, here's what I want you to do, and it's, it's dumb, but we're getting told to do it anyways.
[01:27:53] That's not a good way to lead. No. So he wouldn't say that. So he would, he would support the chain,
[01:27:58] and he would, he would present it in the way in which, you know, he'd talk about the mission,
[01:28:08] and he would make sure that he would accomplish the mission, but he would do it his way.
[01:28:17] You know, you know, the phrase battlefield expediency. That's what we did all the time. You know,
[01:28:22] I mean, it's good. What, you know, what are they going to do? Send us to Vietnam. We're already there.
[01:28:27] You know, so, you know, we just did what we had to do. And, you know, I mean,
[01:28:32] the stupid rules of engagement that we had, you know, where do you have to get approval to fire
[01:28:38] on people, even though you're receiving fire, you know, and just nutty stuff, you know,
[01:28:44] and we just say, hey, you know, we're going to do what we have to do. And that's what we did.
[01:28:51] Here's when he, uh, when he took over the battalion, the following day,
[01:28:55] took over the battalion from Lieutenant Colonel Franklin A. Hartle in a parade field exchange of command
[01:29:01] in the middle of the Maycon Delta, what kind of war have I got myself into? I wondered.
[01:29:05] A perfectly starched general, you was there having flown in for the occasion in his polished
[01:29:10] choppers. There was other brass, too, and photographers, the American flag, the battalion,
[01:29:15] colors, which were ceremoniously passed on to me. And all of this before the scrimgiest,
[01:29:20] most spirulist assembly of soldiers I'd ever seen. Incredibly, none of the generals or
[01:29:26] kernels seem to notice the slack condition of my new charges or their positions.
[01:29:33] From the outset, I realized that to make this unit effective military force, I'd have to
[01:29:38] implement about a thousand changes. So I figured we'd start with five a day, little things,
[01:29:43] basic things like where your steel pot and cleaning carry your rifle at all times. And ammunition
[01:29:48] will not be worn poncho via style. My first order was that darkness that come darkness,
[01:29:55] the fire support base perimeter would pull back 300 meters. The troops instantly began to grumble
[01:30:00] about this. But it was the next order that really began the muteness feeling within my hard
[01:30:05] luck outfit. Anything you can't carry 24 hours a day is gone in the next chopper,
[01:30:10] chopper, good by tents and pots and rock socks and food lockers. The bitching and moaning began
[01:30:17] in earnest as piles and piles of junk mounted at the LZ to be whisked away by Chinook.
[01:30:22] But I didn't care. I wasn't there to have them like me. Again, we already talked about this.
[01:30:34] And this comes up a lot from a leadership perspective. Do you, is it more important?
[01:30:40] Do you like doors? It's more important to be respected? Is it more important to?
[01:30:44] And I actually had a guy ask me this question the other day. Is it more important to win
[01:30:48] order be liked? And I said, well, those two things aren't mutually exclusive at all.
[01:30:55] Right. You're absolutely correct. And they're not mutually exclusive.
[01:31:00] You know, if you demonstrate to your soldiers that you care for them professionally,
[01:31:09] that's you'll be liked. There's no question because they know that you're there for them.
[01:31:14] And you know, you don't as as it said there, you know, you're not there to win a popularity contest.
[01:31:22] You know, you're not there to be politically correct. You're there to accomplish your mission,
[01:31:27] but also make sure that your guys come back. And I think I'm starting to tie together
[01:31:34] something very clearly in my head right now. And that is, you're your number two rule of leadership,
[01:31:40] which is caring. And I think if you care about your people and they see that you care about them,
[01:31:48] that trumps the fact that you want them to do things the right way, because the reason you want them
[01:31:53] to do the things the right way is because you care about them and it's going to keep alive.
[01:31:57] Make you successful. Yeah, absolutely. You know, when I was a young officer, I,
[01:32:05] well, no, I, that's him. When I was a company, after half worth left, we had another
[01:32:12] battalion commander come in, right? And he wrote on my OER, all my career I had
[01:32:20] max OERs really good stuff. But on this one, he wrote that, and I'll take this hit any day
[01:32:28] the week. He said, I was too concerned for my troops sometimes. Wow. And then, and I said,
[01:32:38] okay, I'll take that. Wow. That's, that's an interesting perspective. Yeah.
[01:32:46] And, you know, this is one of those dichotomies as well, because one of the hardest things about being a
[01:32:52] leader is obviously you care about your men so much and yet you are going to do things. You are
[01:32:57] going to put them in situations that's going to put their lives at risks at risk. And that is
[01:33:02] that is something that every leader has to, will least military leaders they have to
[01:33:08] have to find a way to get a handle on that. Because you love your guys and you want to take
[01:33:13] care of them. But you do have to do your mission. And that, that's one of the hardest things
[01:33:19] to balance. Talking about the morality of war a little bit, this was a, and again, this is why,
[01:33:29] you know, the story that I opened up with, you can see that one clearly had to do with, with
[01:33:36] having moral dilemmas and having guilt because hackworth gave a guy an order and the guy
[01:33:41] followed the order, maybe not the way hackworth thought he was, but the moral injury that he got from
[01:33:46] that he said lasted his whole life of giving an order and somebody does something he didn't expect
[01:33:50] to do him the end of getting killed. One of his guys, one of his guys that he loved gets killed because
[01:33:55] of the way he led. Here's another kind of moral situation going back to the book.
[01:34:05] They're flying around, they're on a mission. We went down to about 100 feet. The suspects were
[01:34:11] still running, but this closer inspection confirmed my initial feeling. They were just eight kids,
[01:34:18] no older than 13 or 14, simply scared shitless as they ran looking for cover, carrying neither
[01:34:25] weapons nor military equipment. No, I told the pilot, I don't give you permission to fire. I'll
[01:34:32] put an infantry insert on them. I instructed the platoon leader who's men were aboard the four
[01:34:38] slicks where to land. With gunships covering the platoon hit the ground, the immediately received
[01:34:46] small arms fire and took a couple of wounded. The little kids were as my savvy pilot had said
[01:34:52] from the outset, the vehicle. It was a major lesson learned from me, but one impossible to
[01:34:59] etch in stone. I had a couple of men wounded who would not have been if I just said to blow those kids away.
[01:35:08] But I couldn't say blow them away because they appeared unarmed. Yes, they were VC,
[01:35:14] but they could just as well have been kids ditching school who happened to get caught in the
[01:35:19] crossfire. Anything was possible. And I suddenly realized it would not be easy this delta war.
[01:35:25] It wasn't easy to tell the good guys from the bad guys anywhere in South Vietnam,
[01:35:30] but here in the delta it was damn near impossible.
[01:35:39] Again, very similar to what my guys dealt with over in the body was very hard to tell
[01:35:45] who was good and who was bad and the enemy knew they could just put the you know drop the weapon
[01:35:49] and walk away and now they were considered innocent even though 20 seconds prior to that they were
[01:35:54] shooting. How did you keep your men from becoming so callous that they were just going to
[01:36:04] start shooting kids because they suspected they were VC. How hard did you have to keep control of that?
[01:36:11] Well, my response to that is the American soldier in Nate Lee is ethical.
[01:36:19] It's in our culture not to shoot women and children. Now guys, you know if there
[01:36:31] that might be something else, but we and we do not shoot civilians just
[01:36:41] you know who are who are caught with you know we we run across them just because they're there
[01:36:52] and we want to take revenge. We don't do that as an army. They're generally speaking. Now there are
[01:36:57] times when people lose it and I understand that that's the stress of war that's happened in all
[01:37:04] wars. I don't condone it but I can understand and so they answer your question. We really didn't
[01:37:15] have to our guys are pretty professional and I was proud to start with them. I didn't I didn't
[01:37:23] see any of that. Okay. Yeah, and this just tells me once again it's about leadership.
[01:37:29] I mean because here you can see hack clearly leaning towards making sure he's doing the right thing
[01:37:34] even though he's a guy that loves his troops and wants to take care of me. He still leans towards
[01:37:38] doing the right thing and from what you're saying that filtered all the way through the chain of
[01:37:42] command and we we took an in-depth look of actually done two podcasts concerning the Mealime
[01:37:48] Asker and what happened there and it was just so clear that the leadership was completely at fault
[01:37:55] and the way that they led those troops and it was when when I went through to try and pull
[01:38:01] something positive out of the Mealime Asker the positive message that I got from it was that
[01:38:08] it was one officer who had flown it was Thompson I believe his name was but he had flown over
[01:38:13] heat scene what was happening he flew back to base told the senior leadership this is what's going
[01:38:17] on in the ground the senior leadership radioed into the field and said stop killing people
[01:38:22] and they they literally instantly stopped they stopped the massacre just because a leader
[01:38:27] stepped up and said stop so good leadership completely changed the situation as it was ongoing
[01:38:34] and clearly if there would have been a better leader on the ground that was leading in the right
[01:38:38] way it never would have even started so you can see here from what Hacks saying the way he led
[01:38:45] and the way he treated unknown you know people and then the way that was carried out through the
[01:38:51] whole battalion that's another amazing testament to good leadership. Yeah and and once
[01:38:57] something about me lie which I tell people is that it was the exception to prove the rule
[01:39:03] that United States military that that was an exception. Oh yeah you know the the rule in our
[01:39:12] military as we don't we don't do that and that proved it I mean I didn't see you know there
[01:39:19] were other armies there who were more ruthless like the like the rocks the rocks were not there
[01:39:27] they were the Republic of Korea they were not there the wind the hearts and minds of the people
[01:39:31] they were there the wind the war so if they would go by a village and they were fired upon
[01:39:38] they destroyed the village and after a while nobody fired on the rocks.
[01:39:49] When Hacks worth now gets wounded in the eighth time. Yeah it was you I thought you were
[01:39:56] getting to that when you read that one quote but the way and I wasn't there with him when he
[01:40:02] when he got his ace purple heart but I know the story and and basically there were guys
[01:40:11] who were in in bad shape and he lands the CNC in the middle and fact that might have been that
[01:40:17] then maybe they they landed in the middle of a firefighter hacked it. He ordered the pilot to take
[01:40:24] him down and he does put the wounded guys into the CNC well the CNC isn't that big you know there's
[01:40:31] no room for heck so he stands on the skits and they take off and he gets hit in the lake and that
[01:40:38] was the z-purple heart well after that you know he could tell the guys in the battalion I want
[01:40:43] you to walk through this wall of fire and the response would be where do you want us to go you know
[01:40:49] he he led by example but is that what caused the army you say okay we're gonna
[01:40:57] did they pull did they pull them from the battalion at that point when he got his eight
[01:41:00] purple heart pretty much that was that was it because well if you got three purple hearts you
[01:41:04] went home was that was that the deal I don't know I only had one but I have no idea but you know they
[01:41:10] they basically said you know we can't afford the luge you I mean if they you know if you get killed I
[01:41:16] mean that's a big hit on just a morale and you know and so you're out of your out of there in the
[01:41:23] field okay so he went up to play crew to become the deputy he was the G3 core advisor for two core
[01:41:34] okay which was the central highlands and when my company was pulled out of Vietnam and I'd be
[01:41:40] fused to go and I said hey I want to stay here I called half and I said sir you know I don't really
[01:41:46] want to go back can you use me I had orders the next day to go to play crew and then you went
[01:41:53] up to play crew and you start you guys were doing advising for the yeah we we were the we were the
[01:42:00] Mac V that's a military assistance command Vietnam people and I had there was a close call that I had
[01:42:12] when this was another moral injury thing by the way which I really had really buried and not
[01:42:21] really thought a lot about it but we we had an inspection team that went out on the special forces
[01:42:29] camps on the border of Cambodia and Lowes and Vietnam and you had pleasure rain Ben had doctor
[01:42:38] in the central highlands and so we would fly into these camps and there were three people on this
[01:42:46] inspection team so to speak it was the deputy core advisor who was an o6 a full kernel you know
[01:42:53] big deal there was the command sergeant major highest ranking and listed advisor also a big deal
[01:43:00] and I was the young captain okay carrying everybody's bags no takers yeah right so so we land on
[01:43:07] this special forces camp and we come under attack and the sergeant major is killed and he was maybe
[01:43:17] 20 meters away from me it was a rocket and it was just he was in the wrong place you know it could have
[01:43:23] been me if I was you know if it had come in the other direction well the backside of that story
[01:43:31] is that he was scheduled to go on R and R the next day to Hawaii to meet his waiting wife
[01:43:40] to celebrate their 25th wedding anniversary okay now I was just a young captain but I
[01:43:50] out ranked him okay I could have ordered him not to go on that mission why risk it you know
[01:43:59] because he he was going to meet his wife the next day I didn't do that okay and I I've thought about
[01:44:06] that in terms of survivor guilt and and all of that it was and that's something that's come up in my
[01:44:16] you know my studying this moral injury stuff. At this point did you you're so now you're
[01:44:25] working with hackworth directly and are you starting to sense his frustration about the war at all?
[01:44:34] Yeah a little bit yeah well no more than a little bit because the the G3 for the core was
[01:44:45] fairly corrupt guy and hackworth was very frustrated with that and that's why he loved actually
[01:44:54] well let's backtrack I yeah he he was moved down to the Vietnamese airborne because he really
[01:45:05] was not happy I think he might have been moved I never really got the story on that why he went down there
[01:45:13] and now at this point what's your what are you thinking about in your career in your life?
[01:45:18] Oh I already decided I was designing when I got back to the States and what made you what made you
[01:45:24] lean in that direction because I mean you did more years in JRTC than anyone I was ever done before
[01:45:31] that did you did RRTC and you had all that military stuff and now you got your combat torn Vietnam under
[01:45:37] what what tilted you in the other direction? I felt the army was going in the wrong direction
[01:45:43] when it came to leadership I thought that they were looking for managers and not commanders
[01:45:53] I was in some positions during my career right had access to officer deficiency reports
[01:46:02] and I could see were the ratings of the senior officers that lieutenant colonels and the
[01:46:09] battalion commanders were the tendency was to give the managers high ratings irrespective of their
[01:46:20] command abilities and and then my personal career was was not managed very well
[01:46:29] the hack worth hack worth wanted me to stay he knew I was I was thinking of resigning and the
[01:46:35] fact that's why he offered me the company because you know he thought that experience might turn
[01:46:39] things around you know and so I'm here I am at still with hack worth in the battalion right
[01:46:46] and he contacted his friends at the Pentagon and he said listen you guys we got a stud here
[01:46:52] and he's thinking of leaving you know show him some personal attention we got a chance to save
[01:46:59] him you know he told me this later and so I get this letter from the Pentagon you know
[01:47:04] I'm on the middle of nowhere you know and I first letter they'd ever sent me and they said
[01:47:10] they're a camp in mochuyama we have reviewed your 201 file very carefully right and we believe
[01:47:19] you have promised for graduate school okay only problem is I already had my master's
[01:47:28] which means that they didn't really pay a lot of attention right there review I showed the letter
[01:47:33] to hack and I said hey you know I mean this is crazy you know I'm gonna put my career in the hands of
[01:47:38] these guys you know and that pretty well sealed it for me and so did you did you submit your
[01:47:44] resignation while you were a stone Vietnam or to come home as soon as I came home I did I wanted to
[01:47:49] finish the tour and be at which I did and then I told the army I'm I'm gonna be out of here you know
[01:47:57] and so they assigned me to Fort Charonan Illinois right because I lived in Chicago and I finished I
[01:48:03] have three months there and then I was done and then did you at what point did you decide you're
[01:48:10] gonna stay in the reserves? Oh immediately okay that was never a question okay I was committed to
[01:48:15] doing 20 years turn out to be 32 but I you know I was committed to doing 20 because especially
[01:48:23] at that time in 70 71 the reserve components didn't have a lot of combat experience guys
[01:48:31] and I felt that it was important that I tried to help you know the reserves be ready
[01:48:39] basically and I had something to contribute so that's why I joined the reserves and then you start
[01:48:46] on your civilian career as well yeah and what happened there was I I worked for a Japanese
[01:48:54] importing and exporting company it's a color trading company and it was a name of company was
[01:49:01] Mitsui and companies world we know we used to have a saying that the sun never set on Mitsui
[01:49:07] because they had offices in like 165 countries okay and it was a very prestigious
[01:49:13] company if anybody they had quote unquote Mitsui men you know if you were a Mitsui guy that was
[01:49:20] a big deal it was like their Harvard graduates would all go there you know and things like that and
[01:49:26] I was at the Chicago office and the problem was I actually experienced reverse discrimination
[01:49:35] by that what I mean is that I had studied Japanese history, political science and Japanese language a
[01:49:42] little bit at the University of Illinois okay and I had a pretty good work ethic okay and
[01:49:52] but they couldn't it couldn't compute in their mind that I'm talking about the Japanese okay
[01:49:58] all the manager positions were Japanese like the branch manager he was a vice president you know
[01:50:05] and all that I had no opportunity to ever get to even to be a department manager in that company
[01:50:14] because they looked at me and they couldn't compute that I didn't speak Japanese fluently okay so
[01:50:22] in their mind I'm the village idiot you know even though I have my masters degree I had commanded
[01:50:29] a company in combat I had signed for $10 million worth of equipment I had more responsibility and
[01:50:35] life than these guys will ever know you know but they didn't get it they didn't understand that so
[01:50:41] I did that for about five years I mean I was treated well I have no complaints but you know
[01:50:47] I didn't expect any guarantees but I had hoped I would have an opportunity to compete
[01:50:55] and when I saw that wasn't that wasn't gonna happen I had a roommate from the U of I who was
[01:51:03] a member of the Chicago Board Options Exchange and options trading was just starting at that time
[01:51:10] and he he was a great visionary little weak on details and so he had an operation on the floor of
[01:51:21] the exchange and he realized he needed to get a handle on that and I'm pretty good with details so
[01:51:28] he called me and he said Jim I know you're not happy you know where you're at which you want to
[01:51:33] come work with me and and I said hey wait a second you know I don't have one day of finance formal
[01:51:40] education I didn't know the difference between a stock and a bond you know must
[01:51:45] for less a stock option and he said don't worry about it I know your abilities you're good with math
[01:51:51] you know this is not rocket science is stuff and I said okay I'll do it and that started out
[01:51:57] of 35 year career in financial services industry and I became a member of the New York Stock Exchange
[01:52:04] the Chicago Board Options Exchange I was very blessed I became part-owner of the company so that
[01:52:10] enabled me to devote all the time I did in the reserves that I did because I was part of the deal
[01:52:17] I made with my friend I said listen if you want me to join you I'm bringing the reserves with me
[01:52:24] and you have to understand you know if I'm called I'm going and if I'm in the reserves I'm going to
[01:52:31] give it a hundred percent you know and but he was he had gone through our T.C. with me okay so he was
[01:52:37] he was an army officer so he understood so I was able to have a successful career at the same time
[01:52:44] and you moved up really quickly through the ranks and the reserves yeah I had I had like like I said
[01:52:52] before Jack I had great N.C.O.s who made me look good I had commanders who mentored me I was I was a
[01:53:00] Brigadier General at the age of 42 and I was a major General three years later I was the youngest
[01:53:07] General in the army at the time so yeah I was I was challenged I had great assignments and so
[01:53:17] I was very blessed and my wife supported me through all of this without her I would not have
[01:53:23] been able to get the first base I noticed you you mentioned a couple times a general William Levine
[01:53:29] yes and and so the impact that he had on you he was a guy that landed a D.D. Utah beach and
[01:53:36] was one of the people that liberated Doc Ow and in World War II yes was there any
[01:53:42] significant lesson learned that he passed on to you there absolutely he he I think he's
[01:53:49] personally responsible for that balance part of my leadership concept that I've developed over my career
[01:53:57] uh he really emphasized family and and keep in mind when I joined the reserves I didn't have a
[01:54:04] clue about the citizen soldier you know those of us on air to duty what do we know about the
[01:54:09] garden reserves and their pressure you know what they do with you know people in the garden
[01:54:14] reserves have to balance three balls at the same time right you you've got your your family you've
[01:54:21] got your civilian career that puts bread and butter on the table and then you've got the reserve
[01:54:26] so the guard you know what you know and so you're balancing all that stuff and general Levine
[01:54:33] always remember emphasized the family he always made sure that we were aware of
[01:54:43] the stresses on the family you know when we were gone I'll never forget a microrear
[01:54:49] without fail that's when the furnace would break down that's when we'd have a blizzard so my
[01:54:54] 95 pound wife would have to go out there and shovel the snow because I wasn't there you know our
[01:55:01] son Jay who's who you know he he basically was a rascal when he was a young guy and my
[01:55:08] might have to take him to the emergency room in the hospital like three times I don't even know where
[01:55:13] it's time's a week and I don't even know where it's at you know because I wasn't home so you know
[01:55:20] the stresses and stuff so he really drove that home and I understood better the stresses on the
[01:55:28] citizen soldier which are tremendous you know at least when you're on active duty you're focused
[01:55:33] you know and you're in a community where everybody is going through the same thing so they all
[01:55:39] understand you know the stresses on the marriage they you know they sure things they can help each other
[01:55:45] out but then to be serves in guard you know the rest of the you go to a meeting one week in a month
[01:55:53] you know and unless you're in leadership you know that's about it and you know you don't have the
[01:56:00] you don't have the bonding and the community strength that you do when you're on active duty
[01:56:06] yeah when we got to Ramadi it was the 228 National Guard Unit out of Pennsylvania and reserve units
[01:56:12] that were all in the ground and they'd been there for I think they'd been there for 14 months
[01:56:16] but boy they were outstanding soldiers all of them it was a real honor to work with them a little
[01:56:22] bit and then get the turnover and great guys they you ran you ended up running training for like
[01:56:30] 21 out of your 25 years in the reserves that's that's that's a lot of training to run
[01:56:37] yeah I was and once again I'd say you've heard me say this before it's a god thing
[01:56:44] basically the army was the only service that really had a great
[01:56:53] process where we had reserve units whose wartime mission was to take over the training centers
[01:57:02] you know like the great lakes naval training center you know but the Navy didn't have that the
[01:57:08] Air Force didn't have that the Marines didn't have that we had reserve units that their wartime
[01:57:13] mission was to go to Fort Benning for example that was my division mission was to go to Fort Benning
[01:57:19] and take over the training of the infantry officers and recruit not officers to recruit
[01:57:25] at Fort Benning so that the active duty soldiers that were already there who were up to speed on everything
[01:57:33] you know could go join fighting units basically so that was that was the mission all right so
[01:57:40] I joined when I came off of active duty I joined the 85th training division in Chicago
[01:57:46] and that was an infantry training division at the time and I was with them for 18 years
[01:57:52] and I commanded at the company level battalion level brigade level and I was the assistant division
[01:58:00] commander and every year we would go on annual training to a active duty training
[01:58:09] for it and we take over the training of the recruits so I did it at Dix I did it at Fort Bliss
[01:58:15] I did it at Fort Ord and then finally with the 70th I did it at Fort Benning and so
[01:58:25] then what happened was I I was the commander of the 70th division out of L'Avonium Michigan
[01:58:34] and desert storm came okay and I knew we were going to be mobilized
[01:58:40] and the handwriting was on the wall okay so I put together a list I had 16 subordinate units
[01:58:49] in my I had three brigades in the training command and other things and so I made a list
[01:58:57] of one-to-16 and I prioritized them okay and it was a mixture of readiness and leadership
[01:59:08] you know that's how I prioritized them and I also had to be sensitive to
[01:59:13] I had units in Indiana and Michigan so I couldn't take all the Michigan units and leave out Indiana guys
[01:59:21] that wouldn't have been fair because everybody wanted to be mobilized
[01:59:25] okay you have to understand this was this is when this would be the first time
[01:59:31] okay and we've been practicing for like 25 years
[01:59:35] you know you're ready for game day yeah so the question is if the balloon went up would people show
[01:59:41] out you know and so so I had this list and I went to trade-ock which was our
[01:59:47] higher headquarters at Fort Benning Robe Virginia and I said listen here's my list here's my division
[01:59:54] okay I said use this list and if you're going to mobilize my division or any part of my division
[02:00:02] do it in this order and don't screw with this this is the best way this is the best way my division
[02:00:11] will serve you know the army did they comply oh yeah they were delighted it was awesome
[02:00:19] I was the only division commander that had done that so they went out to the other 11 division
[02:00:24] commanders and they hey say we need some lists you know and they did exactly what I told them
[02:00:30] they do because they mobilized half of my division so they just went right down the list you know
[02:00:35] down to eight or nine and that was it you know now you ended up having kind of a run in at the
[02:00:41] end of your career yeah I had several you know it was because of half worth you know about face
[02:00:50] and and and the first one was I went on the Oprah Winfrey show and basically my mom was still
[02:01:03] alive at that time she used to watch Oprah during the day and Oprah was out of Chicago right
[02:01:09] and and then she and she used to and I didn't know this because I never watched it but she used to
[02:01:14] announce a head of time subjects that she was going to cover and if anybody knew anyone who
[02:01:21] were experts in that area let her know you know so she could get them so she decided this is
[02:01:27] in the late eighties okay now put yourself back at that time when the economy was not doing so hot
[02:01:34] and the Japanese economy was doing real good you know because of their computers their automobiles
[02:01:40] their televisions and so people were blaming the Japanese about our poor economic situation
[02:01:49] and it was called Japan bashing and so in fact there was a Chinese guy's name was Victor Chen
[02:01:57] who was killed and Detroit by some automobile workers with baseball bats because they thought he
[02:02:05] was Japanese he was actually Chinese okay so open decided they have a show about Japan bashing
[02:02:13] so she said if anybody knows anyone you know the Japanese American community what might be a good
[02:02:19] you know person on this please let me know well my mom saw that and she said you need to get on
[02:02:25] the show you know so I tried calling I couldn't get you know how this is you know I couldn't get
[02:02:31] through whatever well I have a very I had at that time a very influential journalist in Chicago
[02:02:38] his name was Irv Cupsinet who had a very famous if's called Cups column he used to interview
[02:02:46] presidents kings and queens political people you know at in Chicago at a restaurant and so
[02:02:55] so I called Cups and I said hey Cups you know I'm trying to get through and this thing was Oprah
[02:03:01] and and he said I'll see what I can do okay two hours later I get a call from the executive
[02:03:08] producer the show and and he says I understand that you're a general in the army I said yeah I'm
[02:03:15] in the army of deserves and and that you're the highest ranking Asian American in our armed forces
[02:03:21] today and I said yeah that's right and he said well and and I I was trying to figure out where
[02:03:27] the guy was going right well he was trying to see if I could chew gum and walk at the same time
[02:03:32] so once he figured I could do that he said you know we'd like to have you on the show okay
[02:03:37] so I said fine when is it tomorrow okay so I said okay I'm in so I called my at that time I was
[02:03:45] working for a New York Stock Exchange firm and I called the headquarters in New York I said hey I needed
[02:03:51] a day off so they gave it to me and then I called the chief of army reserves office because
[02:03:57] keep in mind I'm a two-star general right and I said hey I'm going on the Oprah show you know
[02:04:04] and what's the subject well the subject is Japan bashing but I'm being invited because you know I'm
[02:04:11] high ranking Japanese American in our army and I'm gonna wear my uniform you know so
[02:04:17] I get a call back okay from the chief of public affairs of the army now he's a one-star
[02:04:25] okay and I'm a two-star okay so he calls and he said I understand you're gonna be on the
[02:04:31] open show yeah it's right what's the subject Japan bashing oh it's not about the army no it's
[02:04:38] not about the military at all but I'm being invited because I'm the highest ranking Japanese
[02:04:43] American in the army in the military you'll hold military and being in O8 at the time and he said well
[02:04:52] then we don't want you to wear your uniform okay and I said listen I take my responsibility very
[02:05:00] seriously as a role model from minorities this is a great opportunity to let people know
[02:05:09] that we have equal opportunity in our armed forces I don't see this as a as a possibility to fail I see
[02:05:19] this is an opportunity to succeed and I and I just said I you know I don't really have a lot of
[02:05:25] time for this because it was going to be the next day right so I said is this in order you know
[02:05:31] from you know the secretary or from the chief I don't care you know whoever's above me is this in order
[02:05:39] and he said well I can't tell you it's in order and I said well okay in that case thank you very
[02:05:45] much for calling me you know I appreciate what you said I've taken it all in under consideration
[02:05:52] bottom line I'm wearing my uniform and that was the end of it okay so he writes a memorandum for
[02:05:58] record that to the chief of staff at the army that went into my file that said you know I spoke to
[02:06:05] John Wilmingham I told him it was you know above his paid rate levels and he might get involved with
[02:06:12] you know things that went out of hand and all that and he basically told me that he was going
[02:06:17] to wear his uniform so so I go on the show okay and I'm ready I do my homework okay and
[02:06:25] we come out from commercial break and Oprah starts out by saying and today we have with us major
[02:06:31] general Jim Mukwoyama the highest ranking Asian American Japanese American in our military today
[02:06:40] camera and I'm going to sit there in the civilian suit I mean what kind of a message with that
[02:06:45] it was I was in my class eight of course okay so and the first words out of my mouth were
[02:06:52] Oprah I want everyone to understand that whatever I say today is the opinion of Jim Mukwoyama
[02:07:00] I am not representing the department of the army I'm not representing the department of the
[02:07:06] defense however I am a soldier in the United States Army I'm proud of it we have equal opportunity
[02:07:13] in our armed forces end of message and the rest of the thing went very well and they actually had
[02:07:21] a guy on there who I would affectionately refer to as a redneck and he was blaming the Japanese for
[02:07:27] all the problems and some of it was correct where they weren't fair in some of the economic
[02:07:34] dealings with us you know there were there markets were not as open to our products as they
[02:07:41] should have been but on the other hand it got was saying some nutty stuff like he said well they're
[02:07:46] costing us jobs okay so I said okay who's the fourth largest law automobile manufacturer in the country
[02:07:55] the answer Honda America okay they have a plant in Mary'sville Ohio that employed 3500
[02:08:04] Americans okay they can't close that plan and take it back to Japan it's in the United States
[02:08:12] and I said I'm also tired of hearing people complaining about American quality because the Honda
[02:08:18] Syviks produced a debt plant have fewer defects than Honda Syviks that were coming from Japan
[02:08:24] well JD powers I had I had all this already don't mess with the general so then I told them I said
[02:08:33] and guess what the steel for that plant comes from a Indiana which is also jobs for Americans okay
[02:08:44] then the other thing the guy said was the the the Asians are taking over our universities
[02:08:51] I said what's that all about and he said well they're getting all the scholarships okay and I said listen
[02:08:57] the Asian Americans are not smarter than any other ethnicity or race the reason they do so
[02:09:07] well in school is the parents get involved and they make sure that their kids study and they
[02:09:14] emphasize the value of education that kind of huge approval from the audience you know so what happened was
[02:09:23] there was a believe it or not a federal judge in Chicago who saw that program okay so he writes a letter
[02:09:33] to the secretary of defense saying you know let's I saw the Oprah show and there was this
[02:09:38] major general Jim Moquillama who really did a great job for you guys and you guys should be proud of him right
[02:09:45] so the secretary defense at that time was Dick Cheney okay so he endorses the letter down to the
[02:09:53] secretary of the army the secretary of the army endorses the letter down to the chief of staff at the
[02:09:58] army so when that hits my file same time the other thing hit my file basically one cancel the other
[02:10:06] did you send a photo copy of that back to me yeah that's not me yeah but that's you know so right
[02:10:13] then and there the army knew what they were dealing with because I you know I was you know it was
[02:10:19] an opportunity to show that we have equal opportunity and he armed forces I tell people that
[02:10:27] one of the proudest things of my service was that when I was loose track of people's race
[02:10:34] you know I stopped looking at people as as Asian American or African American and in
[02:10:39] or Hispanic Americans I looked at them as private or full lieutenant whatever their job was
[02:10:47] in the military that's how I caught myself forgetting sometimes of people you know because I tell
[02:10:52] people everybody was all of drab. Yeah yeah so that was my first the first. Now you started to say
[02:11:01] that the book the book did the book start to play any kind of role in your career did people start
[02:11:06] talking about hackworth's book. No not really that that read I when I mean by that is you know the
[02:11:15] whole stance that he took about Vietnam to risk his career and just actually just saying hey I'm
[02:11:21] out of here because you know I've done this now for 30 something years and frankly it was weighing
[02:11:28] on him let me talk about the moral injury of knowing that you're leading soldiers in combat when
[02:11:34] they could have been the policy could have been done better which would have resulted in fewer
[02:11:41] casualties. Yeah that's I don't know if there's a heavier weight to bear than that that's a
[02:11:47] heavy one and then what was the next thing you took a stance on? Well the next thing that happened
[02:11:53] which caused the end of my career basically is I like that you say that with a smile on your face.
[02:11:59] Well I'm I don't regret a day. If I had to do it again today I do it in a heartbeat and here's
[02:12:07] what happened was I was an army reserve guy so for full transparency to your listeners okay I was
[02:12:15] on active duty for five years I was on an army reserveist for 27 years okay now the army has
[02:12:22] three components they have the active component they have the army reserve and they have the army
[02:12:31] national guard okay the army reserve and army national guard are the so-called reserve components okay
[02:12:40] now the active army of course are the 24-7 that's their full-time job the army reserves are a federal
[02:12:50] force and the army reserves fall into the normal army chain of command the partner of the army
[02:12:58] we answer to the orders of the president okay army national guard does not fall into that
[02:13:07] chain of command nor do they be poured to the president they be poured to the governors of each state
[02:13:14] it's really a state organization although 95% of their budget comes from the federal government okay
[02:13:26] and as an army reserveist for 25 years 27 years I saw whenever it came to
[02:13:35] a reducing the army force structure the army reserves would always get the short end and the
[02:13:45] guard would always be protected okay the actors would always take care of themselves that was never
[02:13:50] an issue okay but the so-called one army concept where everybody's supposed to be together in this
[02:13:58] the reserves always got the short end of the stick and the reason for that is the reserves were
[02:14:04] a national force okay we were professional in you know in the military as as you know
[02:14:14] you're not supposed to be political you're supposed to be a political right not involved in
[02:14:20] lobbying and stuff like that the national guard is very political it's jobs for the state
[02:14:28] okay so whenever there's the national guard has so much political cloud if you look at any
[02:14:38] presidential election just watch the week before the election in November that's when the guard normally
[02:14:45] has their national convention in DC okay and I can tell you every major presidential candidate
[02:14:56] shows up okay and and keep in mind they have the political support of a governor two senators
[02:15:05] and the congressman right the army reserve doesn't have that political cloud so frankly we've
[02:15:12] always gotten gotten screwed and so I I watched that for 25 years I said enough is enough
[02:15:19] and so I I found that a 501c3 organization called the army reserve association which was comprised
[02:15:27] of officers enlisted and civilians the mission was to educate the public and congress
[02:15:36] about the army reserves because people when they think of they hear of the reserves they think of the
[02:15:41] national guard they don't think of the army reserves which has armories and they have soldiers
[02:15:47] and every state and our union but people don't think about that okay so when desert storm ended
[02:15:56] right when desert storm hit the army mobilized both national guard and reserve units okay
[02:16:07] the national guard had no full transparency as I said I'm an army reserve guy okay so I'm
[02:16:13] pretty jaded on this you want to say that but you know the national guard has great patriots
[02:16:22] I'm not casting aspersions on them at all you know but effects are facts and here's what
[02:16:29] happened when when does the storm hit the national guard heads three so-called premier infantry
[02:16:37] brigades that were supposed to round out active duty divisions okay one of them was the 48th
[02:16:46] of Georgia okay and there is a national guard brigade that in upon mobilization they would be assigned
[02:16:55] to that division and they would go to war with the division okay and what happened was when it came
[02:17:03] and by the way they had all the best equipment they had better equipment than some active army
[02:17:10] battalions in brigades they had Abrams tanks they have to understand this is early 90s they had
[02:17:16] Abrams tanks and they had Bradley vehicles when a lot of active units didn't have that okay but
[02:17:24] they were publicized as being the premier army national guard combat units that were ready to go to war okay
[02:17:34] when the balloon went up the army said we can't send these guys they're just going to be cannon fodder
[02:17:41] so they sent them to the NTC and national training center in California for 90 days okay
[02:17:47] only problem was the war ended so quick they never got to the they never got there okay the reserves on
[02:17:54] the other hand our soldiers performed magnificently we had helicopter units we had medical units
[02:18:01] we had civil affairs we had syups we you know our our people did extremely my training division
[02:18:09] perfect example you know we were mobilized I had my guys in the front gates of forward bending
[02:18:14] within 72 hours in my drill instructors around the trail my my my my instructors around the
[02:18:25] platform teaching you know running the ranges and all that and so then when it came time to
[02:18:31] downsize is that where you took a stand yeah absolutely what happened was that you know when the
[02:18:39] we so we winded that there's a storm and then the Soviet Union falls apart and the wall comes down
[02:18:46] right so everybody's looking for this piece of the night to transfer money from the defense department
[02:18:52] to social services okay and so the army has a process that's called the total army analysis
[02:19:02] it's a very good logical process so you can determine the force structure that we need for the army
[02:19:11] okay and the way it works is you look at what are the what are we facing throughout the world
[02:19:20] you know whether the problem areas you know and then you say yourself okay based on that
[02:19:26] how many divisions do you have infantry divisions do we need how many armor you know some
[02:19:32] many helicopter pretend you know blah blah blah and then you face reality and you say how much
[02:19:39] money can we really get out of Congress for this so based on all that stuff you come up with a
[02:19:45] force structure okay the army didn't do that what they did is they had the vice chief of staff
[02:19:55] of the army the chief of army reserves the chief of the National Guard Bureau the president
[02:20:02] of the National Guard Association which is not a government and the president of the reserve officers
[02:20:10] association go to a hotel and they cut a deal and it was called the off site agreement because
[02:20:19] it wasn't done at the Pentagon okay well I told you I had formed a army reserve association
[02:20:27] I had people in that meeting within five minutes I knew what happened and the army reserves
[02:20:34] really they they eliminated 80% of army reserve aviation and we had four special forces groups at
[02:20:44] that time and the reserve components there were two national guard groups the 19th and 20th
[02:20:50] and two army reserve special forces groups the 11th and the 12th the 12th of the
[02:20:56] zone was one of the units died was under my command and I was the deputy commanding general
[02:21:02] of an army reserve unit so I'll give you an example we had a black hawk battalion once again
[02:21:10] in my army reserve under my command that fought in the Gulf they were so good that Schwartz
[02:21:17] cough selected them for his taxing unit okay and they had received the it's called the army
[02:21:26] aviation association award triple a award for the best black hawk battalion so that's how
[02:21:34] good these guys were okay this agreement eliminated that unit out of the army reserves
[02:21:41] and put it into the Illinois National Guard okay now I'm a big boy I can I can accept
[02:21:50] I don't appreciate it as a taxpayer but I can accept waste of money or whatever
[02:21:56] where I draw the line in the sand is when you jeopardize soldiers' lives and the readiness
[02:22:02] of our forces okay this unit overnight oh what I didn't tell you was the Illinois National Guard
[02:22:11] did not have one qualified black hawk pilot or mechanic they could not even fly those birds
[02:22:19] from Scott Air Force Base where we had them to the Illinois National Guard
[02:22:24] field they had to go to the Wisconsin and Minnesota Guard to borrow pilots so they could move
[02:22:33] those birds now the implication is that unit overnight went from C1 you know the highest readiness
[02:22:41] rating down to C5 which is non-negotiable basically you know and it took about to be a year's
[02:22:52] plus to get that unit up to C3 which is just marginal deployment level okay so that's one example
[02:23:01] another example are those special forces groups okay there I mean look at the four reserve
[02:23:06] components special forces groups and they said you know we only need two okay so we'll eliminate
[02:23:13] the National Guard you know groups because you know why does the National Guard govern why does
[02:23:19] a governor need a farcee speaking demolition zexford okay and the last time I looked we didn't
[02:23:25] have an insurgency in Illinois so so the National Guard says no we don't accept that so the army
[02:23:32] with their tail between their legs go back to the drawing board and they looked at readiness which is
[02:23:38] what they probably should have done to begin with and they found out that the 12th group in the USA
[02:23:43] in the army reserves was the best out of the four and then it was either I think it was the 20th
[02:23:49] out of the guard was the second best so they said okay we got the solution we'll take one out of each
[02:23:56] component right guard wouldn't accept that so what did they do they eliminated both our
[02:24:04] may reserve you know groups and I was live it because the 12th was under me at one time I wasn't
[02:24:12] the commander but it was in my chain we had taken that unit from C4 to C2 which for reserve unit to
[02:24:22] be able to get reserveist to past those special forces qualifications that's not easy okay
[02:24:32] and they eliminated that unit now I'm a big boy okay when it came like to the the
[02:24:40] helicopter units and I said okay take my pilots and so and mechanics take the reserve patch off
[02:24:50] their shoulder make a national guardsman I'm good with it okay it wouldn't do it because it was
[02:24:58] jobs for the guard so my guys had to find new jobs some of them had to actually change them
[02:25:06] oasis because you know there were no no aviation jobs from them right and just think you and I
[02:25:14] it's taxpayers how much that cost us you know so now I'm getting all kinds of calls from the field
[02:25:22] you know we didn't have computers at that time in the internet so I'd get telephone calls and
[02:25:27] faxes saying journal somebody's got to stand up and fight this you know and that meeting I told
[02:25:34] you about that they had I found out from my moles that in us and they were going to have a press conference
[02:25:41] the next day where everybody was going to hold hands and sing kumbaya and say that the army has
[02:25:50] come up with this great agreement where everybody agrees and nobody disagrees well that was
[02:25:57] true a lot of people disagreed with it so I called the vice chief of staff's office at the Pentagon
[02:26:05] right not as major general jim huyama but as jim huyama president army reserve association
[02:26:14] okay so I called asking for a return call about this press conference it's going to happen or announcement
[02:26:23] you know and I didn't get a call back so the next morning and hour before their press conference
[02:26:32] we sent out a press release and we basically said this is not good this is you know shouldn't go
[02:26:40] through need to have a GAO study a government accounting office study and that pretty well got me
[02:26:49] into the crossers and so then what we did is and now keep in mind I had never done this in my life
[02:26:56] I had never lobbied I had never been to congress I had never walked the halls you know any of that stuff
[02:27:02] we had a we actually and I think I might have sent you something stuff but we had a
[02:27:09] meeting of the army reserve association called for it in Washington DC and I had men and women come
[02:27:16] from all over the country and we went and we lobbied our senators and congressmen and we told them
[02:27:25] this is wrong this needs to be a GAO study needs to be studied before it's implemented okay
[02:27:33] now frankly I knew we were tilting at windmills but I had to do it because you know all I was
[02:27:39] getting all these requests from sergeants and civilians and latinants and majors throughout the
[02:27:47] country saying somebody's got to fight this and they were right so I had to do it some then
[02:27:54] I get an invitation from a congressional subcommittee okay it was not a subpoena so I didn't
[02:28:01] have to go I could have said I've got a headache or I've got a conflict or whatever but I didn't
[02:28:07] you know I said yeah I'll be there and I went and I testified and a year later I was history
[02:28:15] shall we say but it's like I said Jock I wouldn't hesitate in a moment to do it again
[02:28:25] it's when I was in Vietnam I knew that our generals were not standing up for us all the time
[02:28:30] like they should and I said ever get to a point in my for it's a difference between my career and
[02:28:38] and my soldiers the soldiers win yeah absolutely and that's one of those balanced things too is
[02:28:46] you know as leader what you know you you want to tell the line and I have people ask me this
[02:28:50] pretty regularly well you know you always say you want to support the chain of command but
[02:28:54] what if the chain of command is wrong no it's real simple answer if the chain of command is wrong
[02:28:57] and it's something that matters like the safety of your troops the training of your troops then
[02:29:03] you you stand up to it you know if it's something that doesn't matter if they go we want you to
[02:29:07] fill out this paper work differently than you did it yesterday you know what I do I do it right I don't
[02:29:11] care you know you want me to put my uniform on this way instead of that way that's fine whatever I'll
[02:29:16] do it you want to start putting soldiers at jeopardy that won't that won't stand so here's what
[02:29:22] happened okay while all this stuff is going on the Washington Post puts this front page okay
[02:29:29] and it talks about how the the the the this big controversy you know in my associations right
[02:29:36] at the forefront of all the so I'm quoted and all it's now keep in mind I'm still an active
[02:29:41] arm and these are major general and radar right and and in fact before I testified I got a call
[02:29:50] from the chief of staff at trade-ock was a good friend of mine we were both major generals
[02:29:55] and and he didn't tell me I shouldn't go he kind of said that well you know it's really not a good
[02:30:03] idea you know for you to go and he was a good friend of mine and I said John you know I understand
[02:30:10] this is you have to do this this is your you know this is your job but I got to go I can't
[02:30:16] I cannot stand by and let this pass so he under well and so that was also in the Washington Post
[02:30:25] you know like I was threatened I wasn't threatened you know and so so basically I
[02:30:34] then the army times wrote a net tutorial which basically criticized the army reserves especially
[02:30:42] my association you know and saying the army reserves are not team players their cry babies you know
[02:30:51] and but what got me is when they said they're putting out bad information okay that was in
[02:30:56] their editorial okay so I wrote an op-f which to their credit they published okay and in the op-fed
[02:31:06] I said number one where is and the title of their their editorial was the enemy is us okay
[02:31:16] and I said I agree with you the enemy is us but the problem is number one where is
[02:31:25] you didn't list in detail the false information that was being put out by the reserves
[02:31:33] so you need to do that I said that in the op-fed they never did by the way because we had never
[02:31:39] put out anything false but the second thing I said and I said if we go to war in the next 18 months
[02:31:49] and this thing goes through we're gonna have people coming back and body bags that would not have
[02:31:54] I mean now that's a pretty serious statement okay and you would think if I was chicken little saying
[02:32:03] the sky was falling that they would have been inundated with letters from the field saying you know
[02:32:10] the general is gone too far right they didn't get one letter and so but so because of the stand I
[02:32:19] took needless to say the army wasn't real happy with me and a year later when it came time to
[02:32:28] to get a new assignment surprise surprise I was not considered there were no assignments
[02:32:35] that I was considered eligible for and so I I said this has been fun so the chief of our
[02:32:43] reserve actually wanted me to stay and he said this two shall pass so why don't you stay you can
[02:32:49] go into control group which is kind of this administrative pool of people who don't have assignments
[02:32:55] and maybe in a year or two you can come back you know we'll get you an assignment and I said no
[02:33:01] I said you know the army's made it very clear you know they they don't want my services they don't
[02:33:07] think I have any value and I'm gonna move on I'm gonna move on in life hmm hmm so
[02:33:12] what I did now even though you moved on you retired you didn't stop serving by any stretch and
[02:33:19] and you know I look at the military outreach that you started is really your new way of serving
[02:33:25] it was that is that an accurate statement oh absolutely what what happened was you know my wife is
[02:33:31] is so wonderful she she says she's not as as a Christian as I am but she lives her life
[02:33:38] better than I do and so I'm having my personal pity party feeling sorry for myself because my 32 year
[02:33:45] career is down to toilet right and she said Jim you know God is sending you a message number one
[02:33:53] that you know this chapter in your life is over okay number two you survive Vietnam you also
[02:34:02] became a Tain the rank of two star general which was the highest in reserveist could get at that time okay
[02:34:09] and then she says number three and you got me as a wife how can I argue with that right
[02:34:16] but she was absolutely right what happened was God brought other things into my life at that time
[02:34:23] promised keepers which is a men's Christian group I got involved with a church in Chicago
[02:34:31] a real quick community church which is a very famous evangelical church I I let a men's small group
[02:34:38] I lead a men's monthly breakfast I got involved with the department of veterans affairs which I had
[02:34:45] never been involved in before at a national level I was a chairman of an advisory committee on
[02:34:51] minority veterans and I was I was on that for five years so I learned about the VA system
[02:34:59] all of this was in preparation for me to eventually start military outreach USA about seven years ago
[02:35:09] which is a nonprofit faith based organization for the very simple concept jacco we're trying to
[02:35:17] develop a national network of partners mostly houses of worship of all faiths by the way
[02:35:25] and organizations like the BFW American Legion rotary clubs lions clubs high schools this is all at the
[02:35:36] local community level that will reach out to our military community which we define by the way
[02:35:44] as active duty reserves national guard veterans of all areas and their family members we stress the
[02:35:51] family members equally because they serve in sacrifices well okay and to reach out to them to be
[02:36:00] a welcoming environment to appreciate their service recognize that and to offer hope and help
[02:36:07] if they need it now the churches and and synagogues want to help they don't know how to do it
[02:36:14] because they don't understand the military culture they don't know the issues that our military
[02:36:22] community is facing and they don't know where the resources are that's where military outreach USA
[02:36:29] comes in we provide all of that information we have webinars we have publications we have DVDs
[02:36:38] we have presentations and everything that we do is free of charge no cost the only thing we ask is
[02:36:49] when people join us as partners either as a house of worship or as an organization that they
[02:36:55] commit to take our materials and use them to help our military community and it doesn't cost them anything
[02:37:02] and if people want to want to help out military outreach USA the website is military outreach
[02:37:11] USA dot org that's correct and then from there what are you looking for? Well we have numerous
[02:37:18] programs because we understand houses of worship coming all shapes and sizes okay so we have
[02:37:26] different programs that they can choose from some are as simple as a church can list the names
[02:37:35] of service members who are currently serving you know either relatives or members of the church
[02:37:42] and people can pray for them prayer is so important when you're overseas especially in a combat
[02:37:49] situation I know it helped me a lot when I was in combat I needed all I could get I'll tell you
[02:37:57] but also they could do things like send packages send letters how today who writes letters nobody
[02:38:04] you know it's all email and all that stuff how about getting a letter right at mail call how need is that
[02:38:11] you know but then we can also do things for veterans in fact we we have
[02:38:18] two years ago we started a program and by the way we have a memorandum of agreement that was
[02:38:25] signed by the Department of Veterans Affairs in 2016 by the secretary himself which recognized military
[02:38:34] outreach USA as a national partner with them on a program that we initiated called Veterans
[02:38:42] Exiting Homelessness okay now here's the thing the VA has done a very good job in reducing
[02:38:52] the veteran homeless population it's still too high but three years ago it was like 150,000
[02:38:59] you know it's like 50,000 now which is still too high but look at the look at the reduction okay
[02:39:04] well that's created a new problem and the problem is when they take a homeless veteran mail or female
[02:39:11] some with kids off the street and they work with a case worker or a social worker okay and the
[02:39:19] social worker feels that they're stabilized and now they can get them into what's so it's called
[02:39:24] permanent housing which is really an apartment that's got it's subsidized by a HUD-Vash
[02:39:31] voucher okay they give them the keys they be apartment right but homeless people that's all they
[02:39:38] give them so just think at the first time you moved into an apartment you need stuff
[02:39:44] like all toilet paper buckets sponges, mobs you know dishes how about a bed homeless people they
[02:39:54] get a one bedroom apartment but guess what they don't have a death right so we came up with this
[02:39:59] program called move any essentials and we listed things like we have a bathroom kit we have a kitchen
[02:40:07] kit we even have a beds for vets program okay and what we've done is we've gone out to our
[02:40:15] our churches our partners you know our organizations and we've asked them can you conduct a donation
[02:40:21] drive of this stuff okay and not asking them collect money give me the stuff okay and then
[02:40:29] it's delivered to the VA medical center social worker and they distributed to the veterans so
[02:40:38] we know they're going to veterans okay because you know there are a lot of people out there
[02:40:43] are clean to be veterans who are not and so we know they're going to veterans and it goes out
[02:40:49] almost as quick as it comes in okay this has helped us a great deal as an organization because before
[02:40:56] we're at a point in time where we really can move up to the next level is an organization
[02:41:04] but we frankly need volunteers and money okay because we don't have a staff we've done all this
[02:41:10] on a shoe string basically and so with this program we now have results that we can show people okay
[02:41:20] so people come to me and say you know what difference are you guys making two years ago all I could
[02:41:27] say was what were developing this network of partners and we're asking them to help you know
[02:41:34] in their communities which did make a difference by the way I mean we prevented some suicides
[02:41:39] we've helped people that needed stuff you know but we did the have I don't I don't have the staff
[02:41:46] to record all of this stuff you know but when we came up with this program we have a tracking
[02:41:53] thing where we know how many veterans are being helped we know what's been collected and we know
[02:42:00] so now if somebody says what difference do you make okay since January of 2016
[02:42:07] we have helped over 31,000 veterans we've collected over 750,000 items in fact I think it's over
[02:42:20] million though and valued at almost 2 million dollars and we have we just provided this month
[02:42:30] our 1000's bed okay and so now I got stuff that I can tell people this well we come up with
[02:42:39] the new program this year and it's called adopt a caregiver okay see what we're trying to do is find
[02:42:48] find gaps where there's a need and nobody else is filling it so we first we did that veteran
[02:42:56] exiting homelessness thing well now there are 5.5 million military caregivers in our country
[02:43:06] okay serving over 1.1 million normal military okay and they get some help from the VA
[02:43:19] but not a lot as much as they need okay so we are now going to our churches and our
[02:43:26] organizations and we're saying we have this program adopt a caregiver okay and if you want to be a
[02:43:34] caregiver you let us know and we'll contact the local social worker and volunteer
[02:43:42] support at the VA facility near you and we'll hook you up with a caregiver that needs help
[02:43:51] now this could be anything could be babysitting could be mowing along it could be shoveling snow
[02:43:57] it could be showing up with a meal it could be just showing up and being there for 3 hours
[02:44:04] and let the caregiver get up break okay this is not rocket science it's stuff it's an easy
[02:44:10] program but it's something that if we can get this moving like we did the veteran exiting homelessness
[02:44:17] it's going to be a tremendous help for our veterans and but most importantly for the caregivers
[02:44:23] you see at another lifetime my wife and I were hospice patient volunteers we did that for six
[02:44:31] years so I know how it is to deal with terminal illness okay but I also witnessed that it's the
[02:44:41] caregivers who are sometimes need to help more than the patient you know and so in this case
[02:44:50] we've got military caregivers that need help and we can do it through this program
[02:44:57] well it sounds like like I said you're continuing to serve even though you're no longer in
[02:45:02] uniform and I think that's probably a pretty good place to wrap up for today and you know again
[02:45:11] it's been just an absolute honor to sit down and talk with you as we get feedback from this
[02:45:17] episode I will come to Chicago and go to your museum and and we'll do this again yeah let me
[02:45:25] say one thing that I was not able to get in and anybody who knows me would tell me June why
[02:45:31] didn't you say that I have a standard mantra okay and that is every day is a great day I have my
[02:45:38] faith my family and live in the finest country in the world I say it every day every chance I got
[02:45:46] and people ask me well why you know how can you be so positive and you know why do you say that I say
[02:45:52] well number one is a very young 24-year-old company commander in Vietnam in combat there were times
[02:46:00] I didn't know if I was going to be alive the next moment much less seed and next sunrise
[02:46:06] when you're in no circumstances what is important in life becomes real focused and that is faith,
[02:46:12] family and living in the finest country in the world now so then people will come back at me and say well
[02:46:18] how can you say that when we have so much division in our country okay and I say listen I'm a little bit
[02:46:25] longer and toothed than you are and when I was a kid the I've seen the improvements in our society
[02:46:32] when it comes to race relations now I'm a minority so I get it and I told them the odds of
[02:46:39] me becoming when I was a kid the odds of me becoming a major general in the United States Army
[02:46:45] were slim and next and none okay when you know when we've had an African American president who was
[02:46:53] re-elected and then I tell people when president Kennedy was elected that was a big deal and
[02:47:01] a lot of people don't know why and I say because he was Catholic but today that's that's not a
[02:47:07] big deal right in that that those in those days that was a big deal so I tell people every day
[02:47:14] is a great day I have my faith my family we live in the finest country in the world well
[02:47:19] that saying was challenged about five and a half years ago when I had some health challenges which
[02:47:26] I think I didn't mention it earlier I was still working in financial services in the street and I
[02:47:36] got up in the morning on shaving and I felt this pain in my chest and I mean it wasn't a serious
[02:47:43] pounding and I wasn't sweating nauseous I didn't have a temperature so I thought it was something I ate
[02:47:49] you know give it five minutes it'll go away right it didn't go away so I told my wife this is not good
[02:47:57] so I finished shaving and dressing though and she drove me to the emergency room of the hospital
[02:48:03] so I walk in and I say hey you know I've got this pain in my chest I don't know what it is
[02:48:08] so they do an EKG and they said you have had a heart attack well suddenly all these doctors and
[02:48:14] nurses swoop into the ER they address me they put me in a hospital gown I'm on a gurney and I'm on my
[02:48:21] way to the operating room right so I'm in the corridor and on this gurney and I say to myself
[02:48:28] self can you say today is a great day and I said I absolutely can I survive yet um
[02:48:35] I have a wonderful wife and children and I most importantly have my faith so in 24 hours I have
[02:48:49] three operations the first operation was for the heart attack okay so they do an angel grand they
[02:48:55] found out my LAD which is the widow maker artery was 90% block so they do an angel plastic put a
[02:49:03] stand in so by 10 o'clock in the morning I'm in the recovery room so I'm forgetting well that's
[02:49:08] that's the end of it right that wasn't the end of it the second thing that happened was my heart
[02:49:14] cavity started to fill up with liquid it's called a fusion so I had to go back in for and they
[02:49:21] had to put a hole in my chest so they could put a tube there so they could drain this liquid and it
[02:49:26] filled up the bottle it took about 24 hours to do that okay the third thing that happened then
[02:49:33] was my kidneys failed so I had to go back in and they had to put another hole in my chest so they
[02:49:40] could hook up a dialysis machine okay so the standard procedure every time I was rolled into the
[02:49:48] operating room is what's your name what's your birthday how do you feel okay so I'm on the operating
[02:49:55] table and I say Jim Moquillama August 3rd 44 every day is a great day I have my faith my family
[02:50:03] and live in the finest country in the world I can't tell you the effect that had on the doctors and
[02:50:09] nurses the first operation the doctor said what is your faith and I said well since you asked me
[02:50:15] doc I said I'm a Christian Christ is my Savior your skill physician skill nurses but I'm in God's hands
[02:50:24] so whatever he decides I'm okay with so let's get on with it so the second operation there was a
[02:50:31] nurse and she said where do you go to church and I said well I attend Willow Creek Community Church
[02:50:39] and she said I do too so no coincidence the third operation this was the coolest thing
[02:50:47] there was a male nurse who is wearing a camouflage gown and I said you must have been in
[02:50:53] the army because I said yeah I was a medic and I said well hey I just want you to know
[02:50:59] every tired is the two star general so take good care of me will you and so that was kind of
[02:51:05] my my testing of all that now the final thing I tell you which was a god thing
[02:51:14] months later I was going I had to go through dialysis okay so I'm going through this dialysis
[02:51:20] and three months later I get a donor and the donor was our daughter okay but our daughter is not
[02:51:28] our biological daughter we adopted her 30 something years ago and yet she was a match so
[02:51:37] guys when I say every day is a great day I have my faith my family and live in the kind of
[02:51:43] finest country in the world I can truly say that and every day every day is an encouragement to me okay
[02:51:51] today was an encouragement this morning when I was honored to participate in the National Day of
[02:51:57] Prayer with the 79th theater, sustainment command at La Salamitos and this podcast is an encouragement
[02:52:07] to me so I just want you to know that and remember every day is a great day faith family
[02:52:15] we live in the finest country in the world well sir even though this is my podcast and I'm supposed to
[02:52:23] talk after that I don't really have anything else to say thank you so much for coming on it's been
[02:52:29] a complete honor to have you and I look forward to doing this again at some point in the future thank
[02:52:36] you so much and the general has left the building and we have actually relocated back to our
[02:52:43] recording studio and just amazing opportunity and definitely thanks to thanks to Jay Muka Yamma for
[02:52:54] connecting us and send a little gift to you as well so thanks for thanks for putting us together with
[02:53:01] your dad and echo speaking of putting things together yes if somebody wanted to put together
[02:53:11] something for themselves and maybe something that would you know so much yeah yeah yeah
[02:53:17] could you brief us on those things namely your joints you want to keep those together
[02:53:23] good it's a big deal if they're not together so good news if you didn't all right already even
[02:53:28] though you didn't already jacquoise supplements they're called jacco super krill it's krill oil
[02:53:35] but that's not in the name technically also jacco joint warfare also for your joints obviously
[02:53:42] take both of there's some anti inflammatory stuff in there too by the way
[02:53:47] something that I might have mentioned before you know for your joints very good very important
[02:53:51] subscribe for the the recurring delivery yeah because you don't want to run out
[02:53:58] I'm telling you it's junk when you're at out I run out before it's wack also discipline
[02:54:04] supplement called discipline it is a pre workout pre mission pre study pre take test pre cognitive
[02:54:11] enhancing supplements good this is a good one pre get after it and it tastes good interestingly
[02:54:17] you know jacco focused a lot on that taste good lemon lime etc etc make calories in this one I
[02:54:24] don't know not not very many 30 alright there you go so you can do it while you fast too technically
[02:54:30] depends on your metabolic response look can do it before you fast I'm not gonna make any claims
[02:54:34] nonetheless it's a good one for your brain for your body good supplement also
[02:54:39] mook yeah so is gonna say the routine powder so mook protein powder do you are you are we
[02:54:50] even calling a protein powder are we just calling that straight up mook no it's it's not it's mook
[02:54:53] straight up mook we different with the moots yeah yeah let's so so that is chocolate chip no mint chocolate
[02:55:01] yeah no chips yeah yeah so if you don't like mint chocolate chip you might there's a chance you
[02:55:08] might not like this if you do like mint chocolate chip there's a real good chip there's like I
[02:55:12] would say around 100% probability you're gonna like this one I should clarify that I mix it
[02:55:20] primarily with milk me too I have mix it also plain with well not plain but with cold water
[02:55:28] it's with milk it's straight up delicious yeah it's like it's a milkshake it's like oh
[02:55:35] what do I truly in the world want to have for dessert I want to have mook right with water
[02:55:43] it's more like a ham sandwich you know like okay hey this thing is good I you know I need some fuel
[02:55:51] you don't you don't get all fired up when you have a ham sandwich right yeah you're not you're not
[02:55:57] you're not reaching the next level yeah you're happy you're not fired up yeah yeah that's kind of what
[02:56:02] milk with water is like a ham sandwich it's better for you but taste taste reaction is about the
[02:56:11] same for me ham sandwich yeah okay yeah with milk with milk so it's legit what is it like a
[02:56:19] what like a steak yeah compared to hang that's how hard to peel boom jockel's review
[02:56:25] unlawful well the show actually no it's not it's like a mint chocolate chip milkshake that's what
[02:56:29] it's like yeah because a steak is a different thing for me steak is a little bit of a different
[02:56:33] experience that's a really good experience so technically you kind of got to try to play steak no
[02:56:40] but if you live the last fast I did you know and I posted that picture and I went got that
[02:56:47] I wouldn't got a killer steak yeah any I think was so good because you did after that so good yeah
[02:56:54] we got 100% of the taste 100% of the taste no more than 100% the country 10% yeah yeah
[02:57:02] somebody sent me some tomahawk steaks to my house and they came with instructions from the company
[02:57:11] that sent him on how to cook them and I don't remember the name of the company right now I fall
[02:57:15] those instructions I cook those steaks those things were epic yeah they were epic yeah so
[02:57:23] interestingly yeah no steaks came to my house or anything like that or you know the house next
[02:57:29] time but hey they do sound good and they sound even better after because currently we're getting
[02:57:33] our fast on yes currently officially too yeah what do we have you know well are you I'm at
[02:57:43] I'm at 23 hours or something or nothing I think I'm at like 18 or I know it's good you need
[02:57:49] 11 o'clock last night yeah you got issues why that's how what are you doing even 11 o'clock at night because
[02:57:55] like I don't really start eating till like later in the day you say I don't know he breakfast like
[02:58:00] that you see him playing though like let's say he eat three meals a day and that's not a lot
[02:58:04] by the way that's actually a little bit you know some guys it all it's six times a day you know that kind
[02:58:08] not like that kind three times a day sometimes too so let's say I ate my first meal no breakfast
[02:58:15] only water maybe some coffee sometimes maybe some get ready sometimes maybe like a banana sometimes
[02:58:21] not a lot nonetheless at noon ish one maybe too lunch dinner eight it like six boom and then again
[02:58:30] at 11 that's not that much yeah okay do you want to do it over there nonetheless I'm at about 18 hours
[02:58:36] you can take and that's take that you're just talking about the Tom Aquan sounds real good yeah
[02:58:41] but yeah better cut real fired up but that's right now real fired up by the way you didn't even
[02:58:46] mention where you can get all this good stuff well there's even more good stuff so what I what I
[02:58:50] like to do is like get us really excited about everything and then it's like dang working you get it
[02:58:55] boom or you know I do want to say we have in the testing phase right now chocolate peanut butter
[02:59:03] milk milk now everyone's probably wondering hey what's up what's up with just chocolate milk yeah
[02:59:12] we for whatever reason I don't know if it's the complimentary of flavors but we haven't been
[02:59:17] able to nail the chocolate flavor the way we want it at this time yeah the the mint I don't know you
[02:59:25] know the mint is awesome the chocolate peanut butter epic yeah we haven't nailed the chocolate yet
[02:59:31] we got vanilla the vanilla's I'm not a vanilla fan yeah but the vanilla's good yeah I can't I can't
[02:59:38] give it nine stars because I I can't give nine stars to things that I don't personally really love
[02:59:45] the taste of because I don't love vanilla I'll try it again once once we roll out with the actual
[02:59:51] live vanilla milk sure but the chocolate milk will come when we get it right but the peanut butter
[02:59:57] milk stand by the get so yeah it's so good isn't that the whole kind of defining factor of the
[03:00:04] vanilla flavor it's like it's not supposed to be amazing it's supposed to be vanilla like people
[03:00:08] use the word vanilla no no no no no no no no no no no no let me tell you I actually let me tell you
[03:00:14] when when I do absolutely love vanilla flavor you know when you go to a restaurant and you're
[03:00:22] like all right tonight we're gonna get some and you order dessert and you get some kind of a chocolate
[03:00:28] scenario let's say let's just let's just talk about a chocolate that's not chocolate brownie right
[03:00:35] sir yeah you roll up one of those so there's my my local one of my local restaurants they have a
[03:00:42] dessert they call it the illegal because it's so good it should be illegal yeah this is raglan
[03:00:50] sure raglan will be and what it is they take a cast iron skillet and they put
[03:00:57] chocolate chip cookie in there and then and I when they make it for us we don't we get it
[03:01:03] I don't want every two months we'll go illegal time and that was an extra ice cream because you
[03:01:10] need it because it's got that chocolate it's hot yeah so good and you know what I just realized
[03:01:15] we're on the 24 hour fast right now all the time I was through yeah it's like dang this
[03:01:21] thing kind of long but I kind of don't mind it and you're right about that vanilla thing too
[03:01:25] by the way because people do well people do use the word vanilla to describe a real
[03:01:30] bit of the brand stuff just yes just vanilla which is you know it's not great but it's not
[03:01:34] junk it's still it's still a bit of a cast iron skillet you're 100% right especially when
[03:01:40] you said when you go to restaurants I probably go on where you go with this and you absolutely
[03:01:43] right so that being said so what do you do then you put some chocolate like her she's
[03:01:48] syrup in the vanilla milk that's a violation though but that'd be a big fight that just sounds
[03:01:52] real good right now I'm just that's why that's so sick nonetheless the
[03:01:57] she never let me go it should be illegal for us to do see I've been I've been fasting before
[03:02:02] and done the podcast but this is different when I know that you're yeah yeah yeah yeah
[03:02:05] the same boat and this is kind of like a usually I'm just cruising at home like I didn't
[03:02:09] done it before for sure but it was crazy at home and it's like boom but now like yeah once you
[03:02:14] get the talking about it shoot then I and I got a dry boat Wendy's on the way all the way so
[03:02:19] something check either way you get all this stuff vanilla milk not right now uh chocolate
[03:02:27] peanut butter milk not right now chocolate mint yes mint chocolate right now right now
[03:02:34] and we're all gonna origin main dot com this where you get it boom and all the other the
[03:02:39] jockel super curl that that is like everyday stuff you get to take that one everyday
[03:02:44] get on the subscription thing but these you know all this other stuff actually all of it like
[03:02:48] is that all of it or do me dot com also at origin main I'll tell you what there's on there is
[03:02:53] geese for you jitsu very important when you start jiu jitsu or if you already started
[03:02:59] jiu jitsu you need a geet people still ask good and I'm glad they do because I got the answer
[03:03:06] from what geet do I get I start jiu jitsu what geet do I get sometimes I ask a color and that's
[03:03:11] all different question but they say what brand of geet here's a brand origin brand 100% made in America
[03:03:17] best these are the geets that like peat and all that when they make them they take into consideration
[03:03:24] all the movements of jiu jitsu like everything even down to this and think about we might not even
[03:03:29] thought about it like outside of when you put this on okay so in a regular geet they have the string
[03:03:35] to tie on the pants not to belt the string on the pants then you have a belt they go
[03:03:39] over the the geetop all that stuff no that's string fine were you still it fine there's a cool string
[03:03:46] but you ever like put in the dryer or you got caught on something or whatever and that string gets
[03:03:50] lost in the little tooth later I don't even know how you you'd like but you see them saying right
[03:03:55] yeah good project and that's a good idea that'll happen to your hoodie and you gotta get the
[03:03:58] hanger and you gotta do this big thing if you even know how otherwise you're kind of screwed
[03:04:03] in away because you gotta go all up in there now take the origin geet these are just these details
[03:04:07] that when you get someone who's thinking of this kind of stuff when they design the whole geet
[03:04:11] you got some geet there that this is one of the many reasons why you get the origin geet this one
[03:04:16] the string comes out that's okay because it's not this this endless black hole loop holder
[03:04:22] I don't want you to say yeah it's like it'll have like it's like giant thick wide bell loops yeah
[03:04:28] and a bunch of them too so you have like you know it's it's so easy to put them in that's even
[03:04:33] if you even want the string if you don't want the string you're like hey I don't I'm I'm over strings
[03:04:37] I don't like tying my string they give you this little bit you see if you have origin geet you're like
[03:04:42] you're exactly exactly like a little lock yeah well yeah yeah I'm a belt it's a teeny it's a thin
[03:04:48] belt that goes through and click you click the belt make it tighter whatever's like a little mini belt
[03:04:54] you don't you don't feel it when you're rolling nothing like that did you think you're going to
[03:04:57] feel it when you were old it was a question there was a question for me to I thought I'd you know
[03:05:02] this seems kind of weird yeah and then you put it on you don't you don't notice it all you don't
[03:05:06] notice until it comes time to take it off and it's so easy yeah you're like boom and here's the
[03:05:10] thing again it's like we probably never really thought of this until you actually do it like
[03:05:15] after when you when you're done you don't really think about it but it's just one of those things
[03:05:18] or like dang this is good these are good these are good these are good keys one of the many details
[03:05:23] yeah included I was talking to a guy yesterday I was getting interviewed and I said there's a
[03:05:30] world you know I he's asking me about all my different businesses right whatever that means all
[03:05:35] opinion yeah yeah and I said we know I have a parallel company and we make we make a parallel
[03:05:43] up in Maine got a big factory up in Maine he says oh up in Maine that's up in Maine a factory in Maine
[03:05:50] and you know I was like yeah and he was all surprised and I said you know what it's sad that you're
[03:05:55] surprised at that because 50 years ago everybody knew that that's where they made stuff they made it
[03:06:03] up there and it all disappeared and now it's coming back and we're bringing it back I told this guy
[03:06:08] it's a spring in a back we're bringing back made effect we got what weaving material up there
[03:06:12] you know what that you don't even know what I'm talking about people's first instinct is like oh
[03:06:16] if you want material you got to go to overseas and you got to have you got to get it made some
[03:06:20] sweatshop somewhere right that's literally what that's that's that's accepted right that's
[03:06:25] except oh you just you know hey you can't beat those prices and you can't you can't overcome the
[03:06:30] the tariffs and whatever else no you know what yes you can yes you can't and we are we're doing it
[03:06:36] yeah you get the cotton in like North Carolina you're screwed up he's own South Carolina
[03:06:42] I believe I'm screwed it up too get the cotton in America one of the car in America in America
[03:06:47] since the thing is they just talked to Peter and I'm pretty sure he said North could have been
[03:06:50] South I don't know I forget I apologize nonetheless it is in America just like how you said and
[03:06:57] then they bring it up and here's what it is to the secret they have their looms they have their own looms
[03:07:01] yeah you can't just walk into the store and start buying looms you just can't do that that's why it's hard to you
[03:07:06] know to kind that's why they have a unique situation there what's all mean in America and hey everyone that is
[03:07:11] supporting us at origin thank you because right now you know what we're doing we're expanding
[03:07:18] we're buying more machines we're buying better equipment and we're hiring more people so thank you
[03:07:23] for your support it's awesome we're only able to bring manufacturing back to America because of you knowing
[03:07:31] that you want to have the best and you want to make America so thanks everyone yeah thank you second
[03:07:35] that much appreciated yeah that's the one origin main dot com lot of cool stuff on there some
[03:07:42] hoodies not to mention the most comfortable pants in the world officially no officially I'm wearing
[03:07:46] the right now we go to L.A today good fine you know whatever but you're going to want to wear
[03:07:51] something comfortable this is my thought process before we went and so I'm going to wear the most
[03:07:54] comfortable thing that I own straight up no question may origin pants but anyway also like I said
[03:08:03] geese rashcards compression gear and whatnot you know it just go there or gymnasium dot com get what you want
[03:08:09] also the emerging camps jiu jitsu camp you did to immersion camp not concentration camp not not
[03:08:15] necessarily uh summer camp not band camp not band camp no it's like an immersion can't immerse yourself
[03:08:23] in jiu jitsu you train as much or as little as you want but you get to be in jiu jitsu the whole time but
[03:08:27] one week two sessions you can do both if you want but I'll be there I will be there maybe not
[03:08:34] at full capacity the jiu jiu a lot of now we're going to see about some stuff long story
[03:08:38] day work life looks like life's a go j p working it well a lot of cool fun people will be there
[03:08:50] it's going to be a good good time um if last year is any indicators to be real good time also
[03:08:57] if you want to vary up your work out you want to get some kettlebells like some someone just
[03:09:02] text me today well you know on dm okay what weight kettlebells should I use okay here's a
[03:09:09] thing that's a broad question yeah it's a real broad so who are you exactly right yeah it's actually
[03:09:15] it's an easy answer what's that I didn't think or to the 48 kilogram once yeah yeah so
[03:09:22] and potentially kill yourself or some smash it on your toe because you can hold it or it's too
[03:09:26] light for you I don't know just depends so depends on how much you know about using
[03:09:31] kettlebells depends how strong your depends on how big you are and it depends on what kind of
[03:09:37] yeah all this kind of it well it does know depends on what kind of fitness you are trying to achieve
[03:09:42] yeah I guess because you're trying to get big and strong you want to get a bigger go about if you're
[03:09:46] trying to get more more metcon conditioning and whatnot than you get maybe a smaller kettlebell
[03:09:52] yeah maybe medium or something like that the last point is hey it depends depends but
[03:09:58] here's the thing I will say this and say this with complete bias because that because the
[03:10:02] on it kettlebells on it those are the kettlebells you get regardless of what size you get the
[03:10:07] Rc primal bell ones that's that's one you get either just way cooler also if you want
[03:10:16] to vary up we're work out like I said no boring workouts jokka doesn't have boring workouts apparently
[03:10:22] but he did he doesn't I know but you want to make your workouts interesting different movements
[03:10:27] it's functional strength and actual strength there's other stuff on there starting with like
[03:10:32] it's a spectrum it goes from jump ropes all the way up to what mate steel bells what's a steel
[03:10:38] bell they look like a frisbee right but there's filled with metal but what do you do with them
[03:10:44] all kinds of stuff right see there that's the point so there's a bunch of stuff on there anyway
[03:10:47] a lot of good stuff a lot of um what did I just get that were pretty cool oh the socks boom on it socks
[03:10:54] on it socks straight up yeah there's a lot of lot of cool stuff on there on there a lot of good
[03:10:58] information on there too so a lot of the questions that are directed at me I don't know the answer
[03:11:02] I sometimes don't know the answer for me as a place of me some stuff I heard but it's real
[03:11:06] flimsy a lot of the time you got on it a lot of information on there so get some as they say
[03:11:11] you know on it dot com slash jokko good way to support you want something get something also
[03:11:16] when you get these books that jokko reviews sometimes hack words books about face good one steel
[03:11:23] my shoulders hearts good on any of the books feel the need to get one hate to wear it organized
[03:11:30] all the books by episode jokko podcast dot com go jokko podcast dot com click on the top books
[03:11:35] from episodes boom I got them organized perfectly click through there get your book
[03:11:41] get whatever book you want to get two books get a leaf lyrg just continue to show just go
[03:11:45] just do your Amazon thing and you're all good good way to support also subscribe to the podcast
[03:11:50] if you haven't already on iTunes stature google play podcast pod being pod this podcast apps
[03:11:58] out there just subscribe to the podcast what i'm saying that's kind of the thing regardless of what
[03:12:02] podcast application you're using it's good way to support the review if you're in the mood just
[03:12:07] leave a review you know when you kind of think about it if you're not in the mood delivery review I don't
[03:12:11] even know if it's conducive delivery review or is it I don't know I say go for it yeah I say go for it
[03:12:18] ptf ptf right i say if you're in the mood leave review do you also we have YouTube channel
[03:12:25] if you didn't already the subscribe to that one not to good way to support as well we have excerpts
[03:12:29] on there try to post every day try to sometimes two a day try to also on there is enhanced
[03:12:38] excerpts you know what I mean by that I know what you mean by what I mean you mean you put some
[03:12:43] cinematography into the scenario you film and then you edit with music and other special effects
[03:12:50] CGI and what not sure well at the very least I'll put some music on there you know make it
[03:12:56] things are exploding sometimes sometimes you read the war path videos so there's no longer
[03:13:02] horrible Christmas not horrible see I put Christmas music on that because it was christian
[03:13:07] time and there's no ever do that again you want to get christmas spirit watch the watch the christmas
[03:13:12] nineteen fourteen yeah that's a good one as well and that's better christmas spirit is real
[03:13:17] christmas spirit yeah you know unless that's why I did it but look you make a good point
[03:13:23] a what you can be fair never put christmas music in one of my what do they call excerpts oh
[03:13:29] now the yours oh okay I'm in it I'm in it I'm not in it I'm not in it I'm not in it I'm not in it
[03:13:37] don't put christmas music in our excerpts all right you got it I promise otherwise that year
[03:13:43] excerpts yeah I got to take down actually all right I dig it and you know so it's not going to be
[03:13:49] christmas everyday otherwise man once that's not christmas everyday so why put christmas music on something
[03:13:54] someone might may or may not listen to everyday so I understand so yeah are we did it you know revamp
[03:14:00] some stuff sometimes you know listen to it everyday FYI my wife completely stuck up for you on that
[03:14:07] one yeah because yeah it's nice christmas music it was released that christmas time okay I just went into
[03:14:14] like hiding yeah it's kind of a bummer too because that was a really I know you put a lot of
[03:14:19] time and effort into that video it took a little while so that so then when you showed it to me
[03:14:23] you were all excited and and the video CGI stuff is awesome right but I know that you wanted
[03:14:33] me to be just you know over the top with filled with awe at the video and I was with the visuals
[03:14:43] but I was that was a lot of that was countered by christmas songs and so what you saw from my
[03:14:50] reaction was actually fake yeah it was fairly fake there was a fair amount of realness there
[03:14:55] and I remember it and I won't forget it because you and because you know you go let me a little bit
[03:15:01] inside where you all kind of like format where it does like a certain thing and then it'll drop off
[03:15:06] then it'll come back whatever so there's this part where the certain parts starts at a
[03:15:11] Michael he's gonna he's gonna kind of like that part right so I'm kind of so I kind of look over at you
[03:15:15] it's a super childish but I'm like looking at you whatever and you're like looking at it and then
[03:15:20] like when that part hit and it's christmas music you're like kind of like as if to say
[03:15:25] interesting choice instead of you know you're like oh anyway so rough we changed the
[03:15:36] christmas music as a result so boom anyway that one that's a hit video of all time yeah sure
[03:15:42] anyway yeah so yeah enhanced excerpts that's us on there along with of course the video version of
[03:15:47] this podcast if you care the jockel looks like also jockel is a store it's called jockel store
[03:15:53] you're a jockel store dot com so obviously I know not that creative but still cool stuff on there
[03:16:00] stuff is creative I think so going there shirts hats we even got a new hat it's like a flex fit now
[03:16:08] boom a lot of people been asking for that delivered gladly delivered anyway who is on there like I
[03:16:15] said rash guards women stuff some new mugs you know what I think I'm put the t on there so if
[03:16:24] you know if they want to have that option to get jockel white t and international you know oh yeah
[03:16:29] I think you know just more options we're convenient for the people good call for everybody I think
[03:16:35] nonetheless a lot of stuff on there uh if you want something just get something also psychological warfare
[03:16:43] if you didn't know what that is it's an album with tracks jockel tracks I know that sounds like
[03:16:50] okay it's kind of esoteric jockel tracks what does that mean here this what it means it means it's
[03:16:54] not him seeing nothing like that so in your home in your in your campaign against weakness and we're
[03:17:00] all on the path straight it's it's like common knowledge ready all of us were on the path like if you're
[03:17:05] with we're listening to this even me talking you listening me we're on the path all of us one great
[03:17:10] now this is inevitable I think for the most part inevitable where you know hit moments of weakness
[03:17:18] sometimes you need a little help through those moments of weakness sometimes you need to just slip
[03:17:23] in those moments of weakness and fall and be like I'm not doing that again sometimes that's useful
[03:17:27] you learn in my opinion but in those moments of weakness where you just need a little spot this is
[03:17:33] what jockel tracks are for so let's say your weakness is not getting up early you want to hit the
[03:17:38] snooze so what you want to do to tie it on a note whatever maybe drink a little bit I don't know
[03:17:45] so you're on the fence you're like I'm gonna hit the snooze just for what what's the normal
[03:17:49] snooze 10 minutes nine minutes whatever I don't know seems to be good to tell me about that
[03:17:57] there's a mud over here it's true rotten anyway actually it's not for the snooze technically it's
[03:18:02] not for hitting the snooze it's for going back to bed that's the weakness that this
[03:18:07] particular track because hitting the snooze is like if you just want to hit the snooze you're not
[03:18:12] gonna have the energy to get up and you know boom maybe if you put it as your alarm nonetheless
[03:18:16] is what it is the track it's jockel on a specific track telling you why you should just get up and
[03:18:21] not hit the snooze or not stay in bed but it's like jockel pragmatic advice it's good
[03:18:27] hundred percent and this goes for diet stuff skip you work out stuff hundred percent effective
[03:18:33] this hundred percent that's good speaking of a hundred percent if you 100 percent one hundred
[03:18:39] percent guaranteed want to be able to deadlift eight thousand pounds minimum you might go over that
[03:18:45] all you have to do is drink chocolate it's that simple bro okay and the kids good
[03:18:51] I'm gonna get sued am I gonna get sued for false advertising no because so in here's why so this
[03:18:57] kid jociah this is an huge guy towards bicep by the way a few weeks ago maybe a few months ago
[03:19:03] it's been a probably few months nonetheless big guy deadlifts you know has the setup right
[03:19:07] and and he'll he'll have videos there I watch him just to understand how we can and so he
[03:19:13] turns his bicep you know it happens and so he there's a video actually I think this video was
[03:19:21] before he took toward the bicep no no it was after so he has this arm in his sling right when you have
[03:19:26] the bicep tear so he drinks some jockel white tea with the tin pounds it and any smashes the tin
[03:19:35] and I'm not joking with the actual video smashes the tin throws the tin deadlifts one
[03:19:40] bad arm one hand and it's like more than I can deadlift for real in real life one hand deadlift
[03:19:45] so boom proof proof seems like a video just like yeah that it is you can get that on amazon
[03:19:54] soon very soon we're awesome today very soon within a few weeks you're gonna be able to get
[03:20:01] ready made jockel white tea in a can we're gonna put some companies out of business
[03:20:08] yeah because you're gonna be at 7-11 going oh you know what oh maybe I'll have this sugar
[03:20:12] filled thing over here and we'll make me feel like like like high on sugar high for about 15
[03:20:17] minutes and I want to then I want to fall asleep and be lame and I'll be getting diabetes
[03:20:21] or I can have jockel white tea deadlift is called so anyways yeah that's coming that's coming
[03:20:26] I'll let you all know and that's out hey books way the warrior kid series shows the path of hard
[03:20:33] work and discipline to kids book two is out now it's called marksmission teacher kids to be
[03:20:38] stronger faster smarter more confident teach them to have better perspective on other people
[03:20:44] how to handle verbal and physical bullying yeah teaching be warrior kids and speaking of warrior
[03:20:52] kids if you want to support a warrior kid go to irishokes ranch.com and get some warrior kids soap made by
[03:21:01] aidin who's 13 years old owns his own business yeah he makes jockel soap it's good to use if you want to
[03:21:08] stay clean don't forget about the discipline he goes freedom field manual and you know what this
[03:21:16] this is good read read just read one section of day legit read one section of day that will legitimately
[03:21:24] keep you on the path try it you're right yeah if you want to listen to one track of day instead of
[03:21:31] read it because maybe you're doing the car or whatever it's not on audible it's on MP3 the
[03:21:39] discipline quotes freedom field manual iTunes Amazon music google play whatever you can listen to
[03:21:45] MP3's of course there's leadership book extreme ownership combat leadership and how to apply
[03:21:51] to your business in life over a million copies of that have sold that's a lot and it's not because
[03:21:56] we did a big advertising campaign it's not because we took out an advertisement in the superball series no
[03:22:04] it's because of word mouth that's why people read it because it works so get that for your business
[03:22:10] in life and actually if you want to now order the follow on book to extreme ownership it's called
[03:22:14] the dichotomy of leadership life and I just finished writing it this book will it's a really
[03:22:20] gonna help leaders I can't wait to get it out there into people's hands one of the hardest things
[03:22:24] to do as a leaders is find the balance between all the dichotomies of leadership and this will help you
[03:22:29] do that order it now otherwise the same things gonna happen publishers won't have a copy for you
[03:22:35] near be a mad and I'll be mad that's the way it works if you need direct leadership support for
[03:22:42] your team contact national on front which is my leadership consulting company it's me it's a
[03:22:46] life-babbin it's JP to now Dave Burke our website is echelonfront.com and we solve problems through
[03:22:55] leadership that's what we do and of course there's the muster leadership seminar by the way
[03:23:03] 005 in Washington DC sold out so if you want to come to muster you can't come to that one you
[03:23:09] got to wait until October 17th and 18th in San Francisco California that is the next muster and also
[03:23:17] at the muster we will not be backstage in the green room clearing our minds in an isolation
[03:23:25] float tank we will not be doing that we will be with you out there the whole time talking answer
[03:23:32] questions working out eating rolling jitzu everything come to the muster pragmatic leadership training
[03:23:39] for people that are leaders people that aspire to be leaders and also on top of that for current
[03:23:44] military law enforcement firefighters paramedics other first responders we have roll call one
[03:23:51] September 21st Dallas Texas it's one day that's about leadership in dynamic environments you can
[03:23:58] register to that one as well at extreme ownership of dot com and until we are together live at one of
[03:24:05] those events whether it's the muster or it's the roll call or it's the immersion camp up in main
[03:24:11] if you want to communicate with us you can do that via the interwebs where we're cruising big time
[03:24:22] m joko willink echo is at echo Charles and also military outreach USA
[03:24:29] which is the organization that's run by general mucoyama if you want to follow that they are on Twitter
[03:24:40] at at mill outreach USA at mill outreach USA they also have their Facebook page which is
[03:24:49] military outreach USA and if you didn't catch the website the first time around military outreach
[03:24:56] USA dot org great organization led by a great man general james mucoyama and again we thank
[03:25:07] him for his service sacrifice then what he is done for our great nation and what he continues to do
[03:25:17] and I thank him for coming on the podcast to share his lessons learned and also thanks to
[03:25:22] his son jay for connecting us truly appreciate it it was an amazing experience for me to talk
[03:25:29] through lessons learned that he learned from one of my mentors and one of my heroes Colonel David
[03:25:34] Hacworth so thank you both and thanks to all the men and women in uniform out there
[03:25:43] doing your duty holding the line protecting our flag and our freedom
[03:25:48] and to the police and law enforcement firefighters paramedics and all the other first responders
[03:25:54] that protect us day and night while we're here at home thank you for your vigilance
[03:26:00] and to everyone else that is listening factory workers and dry wall hangers and bankers
[03:26:09] and brokers and waiters and waiters and cooks and dishwashers to business owners and investors
[03:26:16] and software designers and CEOs and salespeople to everyone out there doing your best to do your best
[03:26:28] think about those hardcore raccondos that fought and think about those hardcore raccondos that didn't come home
[03:26:37] remember them and for them don't let up don't slow down don't allow any slack
[03:26:49] and keep getting after it so until next time this is echo and jacco out